The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-24 00:00:00

Hon. and Learned Gentleman's proposition would be, that
there would be an endless delay of the inquiry I propose. I
have stated my objections to the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man's new motion, and I will now deal with that which is on the
book. I hold that any Government that recommends the grant
of a pension is responsible for it. I hold that it may be made
the matter of fair inquiry. I hold that that inquiry may be en-
forced is the House of Commons.—(hear.) I hold that the
proper time for enforcing such enquiry is the time of the
revision of the Civil List. I hold that if there is any thing
wrong in
.the granting of these pensions we are responsible for
their recommendation ;—(Cheers)—and if that responsibility
extends to a pe-iod before our time, and anterior to the new
settlement of the - Civil List, a due reg ird being had to the
just claims of the parties, it is a subject of inquiry to which I
cannot offer opposition ; arid lam ready-to say that I will
go anew into such an inquiry, saving the just rights of the
parties; but under no circumstances would I trench on them.
\Vuether the pensions were rightly given or not rightly given,
that. is a fit subject for inquiry ; that is an inquiry to which
I cannot say no; —( Cheers ) - therefore I am prepa-c d with re-
sp,ct to that to say, I like the proposition of the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman, also say it is of that magnitude
and importance that the Government are willing, in the face
of the House and the public, to assume the responsibility of
themselVes moving the Committee and conducting the in-
quiry—( Cheering)—and I say further, if we do it, we do it
strictly on the principles laid down and avowed in the Ho
nourable and Learned Gentleman's resolutions, viz., subject to
the just claims of the parties. lam not one who, in quest of
popularity or for support in this House, or for any purpose of
economy, will be a party to a single act of injustice. The
rights of the sinecurists ale as well secured to theta by law
as the rights of the pensioners. As regards the sinecurists,
we granted a full inquiry into the circumstances on which
their claims were founded. The Hon. Member for London
was in the chair of that Committee ; the rights of the parties
were regarded ; no injustice was done ; and I believe no in-
justice was meditated to any one by any one of the Committee
which examined into the facts. The Committee made their
report to the Government, who, to the best of their ability,
carried the intentions of the Committee into full effect. I
am willing, on the part of the Government, now to undertake
the fullest inquiry of the nature of that to which I have just
adverted.—( Loud cheers.) We will carry it on in accordance
with the comprehensive words used by the Honourable and
Learned Member himself—we will carry on that inquiry in
that spirit, and give to the public the full benefit of
(Cheers.) Well, Sir, that is the proposition which I make
to the House—( Much cheering )—that is the proposition which
we wish to make to the country. We make it in no spirit
of oppression against any class of people; we make it with
a determination to protect the just claims and rights of all
who can establish them ; but after the experience of some
years, I feel that the best security for the Pension List itself,
the best security for those who are entitled to be on it, is in
there being an end to all the mystery and concealment con-
nected with it.—( Loud and continued cheering.) Would
the Ilonourable and Learned Gentleman, after the expla-
nation that has been given to him, attack the pensions of Miss
Charlotte Stewart and Mr. Morton? No such thing.—

( Hear, hear.) I believe that however anxious he i; for
economy he would act in accordance with the words of his re-
solution, and have a due regard to the just claims of the par-
ties. Ihe only remaining question is. e hether lion. Gentle-
men think that this inquiry, if it is to be undertaken, ought to
be carried on under the direction of a responsible party or of a
private Member? If the inquiry were carried on by private
Members, it might be said that it was conducted in a vexa-
tious spirit. To me it appears much less likely that motives
would be attributed were the inquiry carried on by the Govern-
ment. Information will be much more gladly given to respon-
sible individuals, inasmuch as it cannot be said that it is sought
fur party or vexatious purposes. On this ground I trust that
the Gentlemen of the House of Commons will receive the
pledge now given as satisfactory. One word now as to the
time. Undoubtedly I cannot undertake the conduct of these
two Committees at the same moment ; but as the work of sim-
plifying the Civil List cannot be very much protracted, I am
ready, as soon as that shall be brought to a conclusion, to un-
dertake the other. That, I think, is all Hon. Gentlemen
can reasonably ask.—( Hear.) I assure the House that the
inquiry shall not be carried on in the spirit either of a ran-
corous inquisition on the one hand, or with any desire to
make it a blind on the other ; on the contrary, I engage that
it shall be conducted in a good honest spirit. There are two
subjects more to which I desire to call the attention of the
House. The first a very short one, is in respect to the 41
per cent. duties ; the other respects the revenues of the
duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster. Ido not know whether
there are any Honourable Gentleman present who took
an interest on a former occasion in the latter ques-
tion. Yes, I perceive there are two. It will be
recollected that I begged of them to postpone a mo-
tion on the subject, observing, that though I could give
them no pledge on the subject, it appeared to me that it
would be better reserved for such an opportunity as the pre-
sent than brought forward at the moment of the demise of
the Crown. With regard to the sugar-duties, I beg to state
that we propose the entire repel of the 41 per cent. duties. I
will not now go into the question, because all I wish to commu-
nicate is that which has relation to the proposed arrangement
of the Civil List; at the same time I consider it quite right to
state that the motion we shall make with respect to the sugar-
duties this year will comprehend some alterations in the draw-
back. On the subject of the duchies I have called attention to
the fact that her Majesty ascends the Throne without either
the income of Hanover or any perspnal property ; therefore,
in limiting the Civil List in the way suggested, we do not
propose to the House the surrender of the duchies. We are
prepared, however, to give full publicity as to the system
teeter which the property is administered. Here, also, much
of evil results from the mystery which has heretofore been
observed. At present the Duchy of Lancaster is managed
under one system, and the Duchy of Cornwall under another.
Our intention is to bring the affairs of these Duchies, by an
annual report, under the cognizance of Parliament.—( Cheers. )
I trust that arrangement will be deemed satisfactory.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) I thank the House earnestly for the at-
tention with which they have heard me. I beg them to re-
collect the predictions which were made as to what would
the conduct of the reformed Parliament with respect to the
Civil List. It was maintained that the Civil List would test
the disposition of the Reformers. We were told that when
the Civil List came before the Reformed Parliament, we
should never do our duty. We heard it asserted that this
was a question with respect to which we should never act
fairly. I disbelieved that assertion when it was made, but it
will be for this House now to disprove it. It is for this House
to settle the Civil List of /their young Sovereign in such a
wise, but such a liberal manner, as to avoid the danger of
debts being contracted, and the consequent necessity of con-
stant application to Parliament for money, in the nature of
those that were witnessed in the reigns of George 111. and
George IV. With these observations, I move that the papers
on the table of the House be referred to a Select Committee
of twenty-one.—( Ulcers. )
An Hon. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, said
perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman will answer me one ques-
tion. I wish to know whether Mr. Thomas Moore is on the
Pension-list or not; and if he is, whether his pension has been
granted to him for making ballads for love-sick maidens, or for
slandering George I V. —( Great laughter. )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do
think, Sir, that the Honourable Gentleman might have made
a further inquiry,, which is, whether the pension to which he
refers was given as a reward of great and distinguished talents.
Cheers.) I believe that the Honourable Gentleman has
the honour of belonging to the same country as myself, and I
should have hoped that there was no Irishman, however he
might differ from the political opinions of Mr. Thomas Moore,
who would not have felt that that gentleman was a credit to
the country which gave him birth—(Much cheering)--and
that the name of Mr. Thomas Moore was a credit to the

Pension List.—( Cheers.) Perhaps the Honourable Member
will also ask whether it was for writing his early works, of a
very democratic character, th-tt the name of Robert Southey
appears on the Pension List ?—( Laughter and cheers.) I
believe that both gentlemen received their pensions on the
same grounds ; and I rejoice as heartily at the grant to Mr.
Robert Southey as Ido at that to Mr. Thomas Moore. They
are both individuals of great and distinguished talent ; they
have both contributed largely to the literary pleasures of the
country—and I rejoice that one and tt.e other, whatever their
political opinions, have received from opposite Governments
the rewards to which they were so justly entitled.—(Much

cheering.)
Mr. U. W. HARVEY could not conceal from himself the

peculiar difficulty in which be was placed by the obiervations
that had been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellOr of the Exchequer ; because, while on the one hand he
should be delighted to accede to any arrangement calculated
to effect so desirable an object, he, at the same time, felt that
a great personal responsibility rested on himself, in conse-
(pence of the part he had taken in times past on this interest-
ing subject. He was apprehensive that in the excessive eager-
ness of the Government, from a delicate feeling towards their
Illustrious Mistress, to pass the Civil List as speedily as possi-
ble, the object he contemplated might elude his grasp. He
could not forget the successive difficulties which gradually ac-
cumulated on them from the commencement of the last reign.
At the outset there was no indisposition on behalf of the Govern-
ment to admit to the fullest extent that these pensions ought
to undergo the most rigorous investigation, and that it was
not only the right but the duty of Parliament to institute it.
Circumstances, however, occurred, unhappily as he thought,
which interrupted these good intentions, and in fact quite
bewildered for a time the minds of lion. Members. The
House was led captive by promises and by expectations of ad-
vantages, the value of which was not for a moment to be ha-
zarded by any inquiry of the kind now proposed, however gra-
tifying it would have been under other circumstances. The
consequence was, that excessive difficulties accumulated, till
what was considered as a right became a suspected duty ; and
at length, when they claimed the fulfilment of the promises
that had been made, they were told that they were endeavour-
ing to violate an act of Parliament, and even the higher obli-
gations of honour. It was to guard against a similar difficulty
arising, and feeling the obligation imposed on himself to pre-
vent it, that he now wished for a full understanding on the
subject between the Right Hon. Gentleman and himself. He
confessed that he did not clearly understand the Right Hon.
Gentleman's present proposition. He remember-4 oti
former occasion assuring the 4014F10 of tlt.;t WhiPh hp was
pvepeie4 tq repeat, namely, tin;t so far from Lein: can-
nected with any party, or from taking the course he did under
party influence at the time he brought forward his motion,
he had not spoken to any one to be its seconder. He
threw it on the waters of opinion, not doubting it would find
a ready support: Ile had pursued the same course to-night ;
and yet some lion. Gentlemen might doubt the truth of tliAl
statement after the speech of the lei ,ht Hon. gentl,myi ;
for he thought they would be justified' itl saying ti be had
asked the 'Gentleman to second lais motion —(
fagaii.) It wits impossible for him to cOrkeeiVe—it was i.opoi