The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-18 00:00:00

ADMIRALTY DISPATCHES.

Mr. H. Sb.YMOUR asked the Secretary to the Ami
ralty whether it was true that a bag, containing thed de-
spatches from the Admirally to the Admiral on the station
at Vancouver's Island, was abstracted from on
board the United States steamer in its passage
from Panama ; and whether, in the absencsos
safe postal communication. the Admiral was not under the
nece.sity of employing a Government war steamer to carry
the despatches to Panama ; and, whether the Government
were not cbliged on the occasion of the Trent affair, to send
the despatches to the Admiral on the Pacific station at
Vancouver's Island round by Cape Horn ?
Lord C. PAGET replied that rn two occasions the bags
had been mislaid, bat were ultimately recovered, thtugh in
one case some letters were missing and had never come to
hand. It had been found requisite to send some despat& es
round by Cape limn.
PRIVATE BILL LEGISLATION.
Mr. li, HODGSON asked the President of the Board of
Trade what course he intended to pursue with reference to
the report and resolutions of the Private Bill Legislation
Committee ?
Mr. M. GIBSON replied that the subject was still under
the consideration of the Government, and that he would
give a definite reply on Tuesday.
THE OUTBREAK IN NEW ZEALAND.

In reply to Mr. MILLS,
Mr. FORTESCUt replied that despatches had been
received at the Colonial-office confirming the statement
which had appeared in the newspapers with respect to the
unexpected outbreak referred to.
THE CIVIL SERVICE.
Mr. HENNESSY, on the motion for going into Com-
ruit636 " Supply, moved that an humble address be pre-

sented to her Majesty in favour of open competition for the

junior appointments in the Civil Service.
Mr. COCHRANE moved, as an amendmen I o leave
out "open competition," and insert "an approvt u test ex-
amination."

The hon. gentleman caused some !aught: y mention.
ing a few of the subjects on which the cad es were ex•
smined.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the elementary mode of examination pursued.
IRELAND—PARTY EMBLEMS ACT.

Mr. Ai AGUIRE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether his attention had been called to the fact that the
Party Emblems Act had been violated, on the 12th July,
in Lisburn, Belfast, and other parts of Ulster, and if riots,
involving injury to persons and property, had not been the
result ?

Sir R. PEEL regretted that occurrences of the kind bad
taken place, and he had reason to believe that the news-
paper accounts had been somewhat exaggerated. Of late
years such exhibitions had b en subsiding, and he trusted
to the good feeling of Belfast and other towns not to en-
courage violations of the law.
NEW ZEALAND LOAN BILL.

In reply to Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Mr. FORTESCUE said that he would take occasion on

the second resdiniofthi;bilrtomake a eta' ement with re-
spect to its provisions, but he did not chink the occasi3n to
be such as to call for the production of papers.
DISTURBANCES IN NEW ZEALAND.
Mr. A. MILLS begged to ask whether any reports had
been received at the Colonial Office, confirming the news
appearing in the papers of that morning, with respect to the
outbreak of disturbances in New Zealand.
Mr. FORTESCUE said they had received a despatch
which, he was sorry to say, confirmed in the main the
accounts published in the morning papers respecting the
outrage committed by a body of natives in the vicinity of
Taranaki, and that there would be no objection to produce
a portion of the papers.
THE CIVIL SERVICE.

On the order for going into committee of supply,
Mr. HENNESSY moved that an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty in favour of open competition for the
junior appointments in the civil service The hon. member
said that under the present system of patronage the Go-
vernment had actually increased. In 1862, as compared
with 1861, the number of competitive examinations had de-
clined. In 1861 the total nominations by Government
without competitive examinations was 228, and in 1862
they were 396. In 1861 53 per cent of those who were
examined for Government api ointments were examined
under a system of limited competition, but in 1862 the
number fell to 42. As for open competition, thst was prac-
tically at an end, and now no minister would give a single
appoin.went in that way. In the War Office, in 1861, only
~wo vacancies were filled up by the direct nomination of the
chief of the department, whereas in 1862 82 vacancies were
thus filled up. The public, as well as the members of that
house, had been deluded, and at that moment the patronage
of the Government was actually increased instead of being
diminished, in comparison with what it was in former times.
In reality, for each appointment, the ecretary to the Trea-
sury was able to make three nominations. It was the
opinion of no less an authority than Sir John M'lver that
open competition was the best means of filling the junior
appointments to the civil service. Mr. Chester, who was a
retired civil servant, expressed a similar opinion before the
committee. As he saw no other remedy for the present
state of things, he begged to move the address which he had
placed in the hands of the Speaker.
Mr. B. COCHRANE regretted that his hon. friend
should have so soon again brought on this question; and
he did so the more, as all the information he was able to
collect tended to show that the system did not work well,
and that competition was detrimental to the public ser-
vice. 'Unless it could be shown that important advantages
resulted from the system, he thought it would be undesir-
able to extend it. Were they prepared to give up 105,000
places to the commissioners ? It was no wonder that the
people who met Lord Brougham in the streets should raise
their hands in astonishment, and ask whether the people
were mad who had made such a proposal. (The hon. mem-
ber then read various questions from the examination papers
to be proposed to candidates in different departments, and
so rapid was the transition from one subject to another that
considerable amusement was created both by the reading of
the questions and the running comments upon them.) He
had not read those questions for the sake of casting ridicule
upon the examiners, but in order to show the absurdity of
putting questions of such a nature to boys intending to
qualify themselves for various public employments. The
only place where such a system was carried out was in
China, and he hoped they were not going to take a lesson
from the Chinese as to the best manner of appointing per-
sons to public offices. There were many qualifications for
offices which no examination could test. As the Duke of
Wellington said, " Give me discipline, and not learning ;"
and when his bon. friend asked to have the system of open
competition applied to every office in the country that it was
a. very doubtful policy to pursue. The hon. member then
read the words of his amendment—namely, to leave out the
words " open competition," and insert " an improved test
examination."

The SPEAKER said it was not competent for the hon,
member to move an amendment upon an amendment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. gentleman who spoke lest recurred to his usual prac-
tice of reading, for the amusement of the house, the
various questions proposed to candidates in several classes
of examination, but it appeared to him that most, if not
all, these questions could be justified ; and although the hon.
member used some skill in the mode of reading the ques-
tions, still he thought the arrangement proved the wisdom
of those who framed them, as they were intended to bring
out the mental powers of the candidates. It was altogether
a mistake to suppose that the success of the candidates de-
pended solely upon these miscellaneous questions. The main
point aimed at was to see that the candidates had received a
geed elementary education ; but as the candidates might
come out at a dead level in reading, writing, and arithmetic
it was propos,d, as a means of testing their mental powers
generally, that they should be examined upon subjects of a
wider range. The hen. member for King's Councy in open-
ing the discussion, stated that patronage was gaining ground
la contradistinction to comp tition, and that things were re-
trograding instead of progressing. But they had the fact
that competition was employed in 47 offices, while it was
only not in use in 26 ; and under all the circumstances he
thought he was authorised in saying that upon the whole
there was a state of progress and not retrogression.
Mr. MAGUIRE complained that the Government were
exercising a larger amount of patronage than they had done
before, in defiance of the resolution of the house. He thought
it was bard that men holding a certain rank in their neigh-
bourhood were not granted the right of nomination to these
examinations. He was 11 year, a member of Parliament,
and ho never applied but twice for a nomination.
Mr. G. BENTINCK agreed in two points with the hon.
member for King's County : that disappointment had fol-
lowed the establishment of the system, and that the pa-
tronage of the Government had not been diminished by
it. The examiners were wise in selecting the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer for their champion; but he ven-
tured to say that if the system had been in force in former
times Wellington would not have been a soldier, nor Nel-
son a sailor, nor Watt an engineer.

Mr. CLAY expressed his belief that a number of no
nations were given to several parties of eminf nee in
variousrai-
parts of the country, notwithstanding what had fallen from
the hon. member for Dungarvan. He was an
advocate of
the system of competition for three years, and was prepared
to vote with the hon. member, but he would rather recom-
mend him not to press it to a division on the present oca:
sion.
Mr. MILNES said the system had not been so successful
as had been represented by some hon. members. The new
servants were cleverer when they entered the service than
they were under the old system, but they did not know
more after they had been appointed a short time than those
who were nominated under the old system. Of course there
was a residum of bad civil servants under the old system,
which could not be avoided, and who it was desirable to get
rid of. He, however, thought the new system would be de-
ficient in that proper esprit de corps that should prevail
amongst them, and that they would become extremely dis-
contented and unhappy persons in the position in which
they were placed. Competition shuts out the poor man, be-
cause it was now a matter of money—that man who could
Pay for cramming being generally the successful candidate.
It was neither a satisfactory nor a healthy state of things.
Lord PALIUERSTON said he could not concur with the
fundamental principle on which the hon. member for King's
County had founded his motion. The hon. member seemed
to think that employment in the Queen's service ought to be
a
mat ter that anybody might claim who showed a fitness for
it,
but he conceived that, ace rding to the constitution of the
country, those who were honoured by the Crown with its
confid-nce were reeseponsible for filling up all the offices in
tthheatanelovcienee oshf should bre
not qualified.
rlotoadii)tpieowanred'sutobj
reafitlelxedarathinosaetiou
to
ahnows. ehcitmtoutlahteithr
the present
ngtoosydectaemre
appointed to an cffice tor which he was
thatln the first place, there was the
appointment possessed sufficient acquirements to entitle
a person who applied for an
him to be a competitor others. The competitive mini-
-I,ation was to ascertain who certain number was the
afigorelaatr
hafrormdahitipbetionhgaavne
fittest person for the appoin inerat
advantage, he thought it would be
a considerably larger number of
,competitors than there were
appointments to be made, andwatoott d be liketo sthtare
to,ldanstdoryooloyf
_theaordaccea,use a
mg,raheneaayterr range over which
onethe foreigner about a(hbeoaurt)
considered
enou3poohrlisoteo enable the
Inedotor the ap-
tht o r
es
op spread
competitorsdis appo disappointment.
eachen t. (H
vacancyr
examiners to ascertain who was the fittest
pointment. It was said that the system only
ming, and that knowledge so acquired was Soon
comps.
alost.crin
Cramming was, however, an essential clement in all
Pe'
titions. (Hear.) Why, for a boat race the men who had to
pull were crammed—(laughter)—that was, they were put
in training for a month or a fortnight beforehand; horses
were also crammed for racing—(laughter)—they were
crammed with corn—(laughter)—and they were practised in
the exertion of their muscles—(laughter)—and even for a
pugilistic encounter the inert were crammed—that was to
say, they were trained for the contest. (Loud laughter.)
At the universities cramming took place. It was an eitercisb

of the faculties of the mind, and altho
actual knowledge which was imbibed did not remain, yet
every man Who had gone through an examination knew the
habit of mental exertion that cramming gave lasted after-
wards, and was of use to them in after life. (Hear.) No
reasonable objection could be taken to competitive examina-
tion on the ground that it required prey ous preparation.
Objection had been taken to the system of nominations for
competition by the hon. member for Dungarvan on the
ground that theywere not open to every one, himself amongst
the number. They lived in a country which had a Parlia-
mentary constitution, and governments must maintain
themselves(heer)— en din i Parliamenttwewas
hut by
naturalt h et
hseutptphoeryt
should
etheir
ratherf friends—
(hear)—and i endfse—el
disposed to comply with requests made by their friends with
those made by hon. gentlemen who were going to vote
against them and turn them out of office a week after.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) There was nothing, he
thought, out of human nature in such arrangement, and in
declining to give gentlemen opposed to the Government of
the day a right to demand favours of that Government.
(Hear, hear.) It ight be
defsanscosteGiooeoarndthrooui
otodipectlhvtsodfpeoetaeinj
obhatrdttaa
shnetapei
eegdemrtscpedrgauotret
Gbeiethourdttniydeoiooelootdstnvai
.e nominations and
appointments ought to be given to respectable persons—
yewategvr
act
hlxnoetieireeeuaprdttemrhi:raresoaeseomsonehtsneuon.
as.
enoteent
awegntotfi
of
for
avfrotregardehostrTpwhheeoaeehienG.person
illustrationraasnrl
refusal—and
ibvudoomp me
epiepiwri
npertnnoansgho
wmalenostiotfnoi
etdaieoi
pdosncntwhwpnahtet
he could
ars tpkenhhnoeyaelht tiaoi t rpGiblai —otasi
0.
political
course.
thenoe tort-
for Dungarvan that if he would condescend at any time to
express a wish in favour of one of his constituents, that
wish would receive the best attention of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He had always
been an advocate for the competitive system, and he was
convinced it was one that worked well, and would ensure
good and proper persons to be employed in the different de-
partments of the public service. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY agreed in the main with what the noble
lord had stated, but he differed from him in regard to his
analogy in reference to the race horse, the pugilist, the
rower, and those severe studies they went through at the
university, which he quite agreed with the noble lord,
trained the mind and left behind it a power which nothing
afterwards would deprive the possession of ; and that
vicious system of cramming which was adopted as a test
for Government employment, but which was not a test, but
a mere chance. (Hear, heat.) The competitive system,
however, he thought, had not had time enough to allow
them to come to a sound opinion on the matter. It was
working fairly, but so far it was only an experiment, and
opinions as to the result differed. He considered it would
be unwise to push it to a greater extent until after they had
had greater experience of its working hnt
tsteict tohrb°huetafne(enonoashhnidtdtggepaoeheeearrrEtli' areeceea. consideration—(hear,
tmet
granted,
iddeaeera,
was not
ntlb ° f

Mr. D. EFFITH said that the noble lord's state-
ment that nominations were an exercise of patronage fin
the support of the Government of the day was incom-
patible with the establishment of the system; and from
facts that had gradually crept out it would appear
that competitive examinations had trebled the patronage
of the Government. (Hear, near.) The noble lord's state-
ment with reference to the complaint of the hon. member
for Dungarvan was particularly inapplicable to the state of
parties in that house. There were more gentlemen on his
own side of the house who were likely to displace him than
there were on the Opposition side of the house. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He protested against Government
being carried on by the exercise of patronage.

The house then divided. The numbers were—
For M:. Hennessy's motion ... 37
Against it
Majority — 81
STREET MUSIC.

Mr. BASS called the attention of the Secretary of State

for the Home Department to street music in the metropolis,
and moved that it was expedient to reconsider the law on
this matter at the earliest opportunity. He said street
music was now becoming so troublesome that it was desir •
able the law should be more definitely known than was the
case at present. From early morn, half-past 7 o'clock. till
late at night, 11 o'clock, they were subjected to these inces-
sant discords. (Laughter.) Bands were continually play-
ing in all directions--north, south, east, and west. The
other day, when he called en Sir R. Mayne, in Eaton-
square, he found a band playing onhis door-step. (Laughter.)
He afterwards crossed to the south side of the square, and
there he found another band. (Laughter.) On the north
side he found a third band, and when he got to Eaton-place
he found a fourth band playing. (Laughter.) There they
were, playing away at the same time—all sorts of wretched
instruments, and out of tune—blast and• counter blast—
from one side of the square to the other ; and it was
ridiculous to call the discordant sounds that met the ear
in every direction music—(hear, hear)—and it was pre-
posterous to contend that it could be advantageous to
any one. Their noise was a serious inconvenience to the
transaction of business and the occupations of literary
and scientific men ; and Mr. Babbage's case was an illus-
tration of what such men suffered from the nuisance of

those street bands. A greater part of the day those person;
had to discontinue their studies; and Mr. Babbage told
him chat one-quarter of his time was lost a day owing to
the annoyance of those bands. He had been interrupted in
his calculations 182 times in one day—(hear, and laughter)
—and it was a fact that persons were driven from the town
owing to the torments they suffered from those noisy per-
sons. The bands were composed of foreigners hired by
people who make a livelihood out of their blowing and
scraping. ;Laughter.) In fact, they were beggars, and in
that sense being mendicants by law we ought to have the
power of putting an end to the nuisance. He was assured
by Sir R Mayne that the late Lord Canning, before going
to India, committed a serious error in an important despatch
owing to the playing of a street band in front of his lord-
ship's house. (Laughter.) He was surprised to find that
any one was in favour of this nuisance. He was n• t one of
those hon. members who were detained at the house till
near four o'cloe., that morning. He got home to bed about
one o'clock, but he was disturbed that morning about halt-
past seven o'clock out of his first sleep by the noise of oae
of those bands playing under his window—(laughter)—and
during th. three or four hours that he was engaged about
his correspondence, four different bands came and played
in front of his house, and he had to move from front to
rear, and from rear to front, to try to get peace and quiet-
ness. (Laughter.) It was said that these people being
paid by the public was proof that the latter enjoyed the
abominable music. He disputed it, because during the
time the ban. a were about the streets the working classes
were engaged in business, and those who were not, and
had a musical taste, looked upon these wandering min-
strels with horror and disgust. The real promoters and
enc, uragers of this discord were children and nurse girls.
(Laughter.) The hon. member urged that some altera-
tion was necessary in the law to protect those whose busi-
ness avocations and studies rendered the noises hideous
and distracting to them. The present law was not adequate
to deal with the subject.
The SPEAKER informed the hon. gentleman that his
resolution, as vt orued, could not be put as an amendment to
the motion for going into supply.
Mr. BASS said that, as he could not go to a division upon
it, he would take it that the house was unanimously in
favour of his resolution. (Laughter.)

Lord FERMOY said the present law was sufficiently
stringent to deal with this matter, and the hon. member
found Mr. Babbage had put it in force, and the magistrate
had, in his (Lord Fermoy's) opinion, unjustifiably punished
a great many poor musicians. It was no doubt disagreeable
to Mr. Babbage, and also to the hon. member, who must
allow that he had a dislike for music.
Mr. BASS—No. (Laughter.)

Lord FERMOY—But he must permit other people to
have their tastes, and to enjoy them. He was not aware
until he heard his hon. friend describe its pleasures, that
Belgravia was such a musical place to walk in. (Laughter.)
If the bands were not enjoyed by some one they would not
exist; and he did not see why the house should be called to
interfere and put down a thing just because certain persons
objected to it. The bands dealt professionally with the sub-
ject. They played for the people, and the people paid them,
and the fact of there being such a number of bands daily in
Belgravia showed that the aristocracy had a wish and desire
to hear them. (No, no.) They paid for it; and where it was
objectionable there was no, an instance that the men had
not moved on when requested so to do. Many persons no
doubt objected to brewers' drays in the street, because they
often frightened gentlemen's horses ; but that was no rea •
son why they should be prohibited from going through the
town in the middle of the day, in the pursuit of their legi-
timate occupation. The truth was, that nobody took any
interest in the amusements of the middle and working
classes ; and if there were public places appointed where
music might be played, there would not be so many com
plaints of music playing in the streets.

.
Mr. C. BENTINCK hoped something would
very soon
be done to remedy the evil alluded to. He had the
mis-
fortune to reside in a street with a square at each end of l 'tand he was often treated to a band et each end, and a troupe
of wandering minstrels midway in the neighbourhood of his
own house. It was clear, as a matter of law, that it any
man kept a street band playing in the area of his own house,
he would be indictable for a nuisance, and according to
the principles of law, justice, and common sense he con-
tended that no person had a right to do that in the
open street which he could not 1 gaily do (.n his own
premises. (Hear.)
Mr. MALINS also complained of the street music, and
said that the only leisure he got to peruse his papers and
briefs was before breakfast in the morning, or after eleven
a l'er37
about the
at night. He did not mean to say that the street bands were
all bad, but that the organ-grinding was intolerable.
Mr. BRUCE, in reply to the hon, member, said it was
bands.
band and not th
difficult question, and one that required delicacy of
treatment, There was no doubt, from the large crowds seen
would be so
m, that the children
of London derived
now, much amusement from those strolling
and the poor of the East-end
Sir J. SHELLEY quoted then, could they purpose to put down one
hard-hearted,
? He did not think many persons
olirkeiftosopothpeuiraermmedusy
music
ceeomn
proof that there was dem:*
than the disease.
ted the case of the park music as a
of the inhabitants of the edthewpoarerte
metropolis, lie was the treasurer ,

to them, and he was happy to say that the park bands were
now self-supporting. (Question.)
The subject then dropped.
MEN OF EMINENCE.
Mr. W. EWART asked the First Commissioner of
Works, whether, through the agency of the Metropolitan
Board of Works or otherwise, it might be practicable to
have inscribed oh those houses in tondoh which hate been
inhabited b., celebrated persons the names of such persons ?
Mr. COWPER admitted that the public would feel con-
siderable interest in being able to recognise the houses in
which men of eminence and fame had resided, but he did
not c_nsider that it would be advisable to interfere with the
right which every owner of a house had of inscribing what
he pleased on its front. It might not be pleasing to them
to have any name but their own placed on their doors, and
some of them also might not greatly desire to have the an-
tiquity of their houses indicated, particularly if they had
any thought of selling them. (Laughter.)
THE DETENTION OF THE GIBRALTAR.

Lord R. CECIL rose to ask the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether he was prepared to propose the grant of
any compensation to Capt. Blakeley for the loss occasioned
to him by the detention, without cause, of the vessel Gib-
raltar; and whether the Government would lay upon the
table the depositions or inlormstions upon which the Go-
vernment had acted in that case?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that his answer would t e very simple,
and he w
very dry. The case of Captain B.akeley was innoasafraid
manner
before him. He had no t ffictal knowledge whatever of him,
and he submitted, as a financial minister, that it would be
absurd to compensate a person from whom he had not even
received an application. In respect of the latter part of the
question, which should have been directed rather to the
Under Secretary or State for Foreign Affairs than to him,
he was not able to say more than that he rather imagined
it would be an unusual course for Government to produce
the papers in such a case ; but if what had been stated to
him was correct, it was entirely at variance with the
supposition of the noble lord. Unless he was mistaken,
the Government did not volunteer interference in the
case of the Gibraltar. An inquiry was directed to them
by the parties connected with the ship itself whether
the guns would be of themselves cause of detention ;
and as the only course open to the Government under
the circumstances was to institute an investigation into
the matter, they were in no way responsible for the delay
which had taken place in the departure of the vessel. In
conclusion, the right hon. gentleman declared that the noble
lord had grossly misrepresented the conduct of the Govern-
ment, and repudiated, on tha pat t of himself and colleagues,
the charge of truckling to the United States, (Hear, hear.)
THE SALMON FISHERIES ACT OF 1861.
Mr H.UMBERSTON called the attention of the house
to the petition of Mr. Robert Topham, showing that, by the
operation of the -Salmon Fisheries Act, 1861, he has been
entirely deprived of his right of fishing for salmon in his
t4charteredhsbeen fivisrhteuraylliynctohnefis Dee, at Chester, without compen-
sation or redress, and that his property in that fishery has
_ _ _

Mr. BRUCE said thecomplaint of Mr. Topham ought to
have been urged when the act of 1861 was under considera-
tion, and did not think there was any case for relaxing the
law.

THE CASE OF MR. ANSTEY.
Col. DUNNE called at ention to the case of Mr. Anstey,
late attorney-general at Hongkong, and asked what repara
tion had been made to him for the injustice acknowledged
to have been done to him by the authorities in that colony.
He explained the circumstances connected with the dismis-
sal of Mr, Anstey, and the extraordinary accusations made
by him, which the Duke of Newcastle, he said, had declared
to have been substantially proved.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE, observing that the dismissal of
Mr. Anstey was the act of the late Administration, said the
reasons for that act extended far bey, nd the transactions re-
ferred to by Col. Dunne, who had put the case upon too nar-
tow an issue. Mr. Anstey had shown a violence of temper
and a want of discretion and judgment which unfitted him
for, being the confidential legal adviser of the Governor, and
the Duke of Newcastle had declined to reopen the question
and to reverse the decision of his predecessor. Mr. Anstey,
he said, had no claim whatever to compensation or repara•
tion from the Government.
THE SPANISH PROTESTANTS.
Mr. G. DUFF moved for papers relating to the case of
the Spaniards lately sentenced to banishment on account of
their religious opinions. The subject was brought before
the house in the years 1861 and 1862, and it now appeared
that a slight change had taken place in their condition, the
severe sentence having been commuted to one of banish-
ment. He said they were not convicted and sentenced as
Protestant converts, but as Protestant propagandists, which
he considered was more surprising, because he cculd not
understand how Spain could tear such a movement.
Sir G. BOWYER concurred in many of the sentiments
expressed by the hon. gentleman, but could not agree with
trim that the reading of the Bible could be any injury to
Catholicity. He believed, on the contrary, that the more
people read the Bible the more they would see the truth of
tee Catholic religion. It was a great mistake to suppose
that the Catholic Church objected to the reading of the Bible.
The only question was, what was the rule of faith to be ap-
plied to the Bible. But, without dwelling further on that
he believed that Matamoras and his friends represented some
point, he would proceed to state the facts of this case If
party in Spain who were teaching in an unobtrusive man-
ner, and without violating the laws of their country, what
they believed to be true, he should say there was something
in,the arguments which had so frequently been addressed
to the house ; but the real truth was far otherwise. Mate-
rniiras in 1845 having engaged in some political conspiracy,
wee obliged to fly from his country. Afterwards an amnesty
wgiss published, and he was enabled to return. He then be -
cafrie a soldier, and subsequently was appointed a lay agent
°fan English committee at Gibraltar, consisting of Presby-
terians, Methodists, and one not very distinguished member
of, the Church of England, whose object was the
Propagation of what they considered to be true reli-
gion in Spain. He received 45 dols. a month for his aer-
vipes, but so little sincere was he that he declared to
one of his associates that he did not believe in any
religion at all, and had engaged in the undertaking simply
as a speculation. The English committee did not make
,
much progress, because they did not represent one Spanish
impossibleanything; to convert him into a Protestant.
he could be made an infidel
idea. Spain repudiated Protestantism. A Spaniard might
bbuet it made almost q
ui
Matamoras became the agent of this Propagandist Society
in Spain, and he and others were also sn, posed to be agents
for the propagation of revolutionary and socialistic opinions.
te
If these persons had been sincere religionists, the Go
vernment might have acted Ifferently, but, knowing that
they were only the paid agents of an English society, and
that they did not represent any Spanish idea, the Govern-
ment put the laws of Spain in force, which declared the
Catholic faith to be the religion of the State, and did not
permit any person to propagate a different religion among
the people. The Spaniards were perfectly satisfied with
those laws. He believed that the Spaniards repudiated any
attempt on the part of any foreign society to introduce re-
ligious discord into the country He was informed that
one of the associates of Matamoras had since returned to
the Catholic Church, had expiated his apostacy by penance,
and was now a faithful son of the Church. He denied that
this was a proper matter for discussion in the Hou'Oe of
Commons. (Hear.) There was but one religion in Spain.
A Spanish Protestant was a contradiction in terms, and
Protestant propagandism in Spain was sure to fail. Such
a society might stir up religious strife, but it would never
'rote, tantize Spain. He trusted that her Majesty's Go-
vernment would not do so unwise a thing as to interfere
in this matter (Hear.) They had much better leave the
Spaniards to manage their own affairs. (Hear.) Having
brought these remarks to a close, he had new to ask the
indulgence of the house in a matter affecting the public
and private character of persons who had no opportu-
nity of appearing and defending themselves in that
house. The noble lord at the head of the Government
was aware that some time ago a statement was made
by him to which his attention had been since directed bythe
notice that appeared in his (Sir G. Bowyer's) name. His
statement was that in a public church at Rome a celebrated
Frenchman, named Father Curci, addressed reproaches of
the stronest nature to the King of Naples, Francis II , in
the presence of the congregation there assembled, and of a
large body of nobility forming the Neapolitan emigration in
Rome. The preacher was represented as having accused
that unfortunate and illustrious Prince of a very great
offence—viz., of having sent bands of robbers and murderers
—persons of the most atrocious character—to commit the
most atrocious crimes in his &minions, which were usurped
by his neighbour and relation, the King of Sardinia. It was
sought to be deduced from this statement that the king had
been guilty of these offences. This statement on the part of
the noble lord attracted attention, and created great pain and
dismay, not only on the part of the Sovereign, but of the
nobility and others attached to his cause. He bad received
a letter from Father Curd, in which he denied the use of
the words attributed to him, and stated that he never in the
course of his sermon made the slightest allusion to any po-
litical matter whatever. He had also received a letter signed
by persons of the highest rank in the south of Italy—viz.,
the Prince of Bisegnorno, the Duke of Regina, Cavaliere
Naladi di Altavella, Joseph Ricciardi Count of Comaldoli,
Baron Camillo Nolli, the Duke John Riario Sforza, the
Prince of Chearamonte, the Prince of Aguaviva, the Duke
of Maddaloni, Count Enruco Statella, Count Anthony Bian-
culli, the Duke of Terra Conviano, and the Duke of St. Va-
lantino. These gentlemen thanked him for the course which
he had felt it his duty to take, protested against the cruel-
ties practised towards their countrymen by the Piedmon-
tese, and emphatically denied the statement which was in-
tended to criminate the King. They asserted that no such
charge had been brought against him. He had also a solemn
legal instrument exscuted before a notary public, who, as
hon. gentlemen were aware, was in Rome a public magi&
trate of great weight, and which ran as follows :-
-

"Before me, Domenico Monti, notary public, &c., ap-
peared the witnesses hereinafter named,—that is to say, his
Most Rev. Excellency Monsignor Accorde, Bishop of
Anglona and Tursi, his Most liev. Excellency Don Michael
Alias, Bishop of Patti, &c. (here follows the names of 22
persons of the highest distinction—prelates, princes, dukes,
and other noblemen), who spontaneously make and have
made the following deposition, declaring that having heard
on the 3d of the present month the sermon of the Rev,
Father Curci, in the venerable church of the Spirito San.