The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-24 00:00:00

MIR SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 24, 1839.

val Estimates was a sufficient answer to all that could
hereafter be said upon the subject ; but instead of the
lull he expected, hi 3 Gallant Friend had again stirred up
the waters of the deep.—( Hear.) He was not influ-
enced by any wish to annoy her Majesty's GoVernment,
but he was anxious to see the snips sent to sea efficiently
manned. He regretted to be obliged to say, that the
Hen. Secretary had rather evaded the question on the
present occasion. It had been said, Why were not their
shipia! well able to maintain their position now as formerly?
Why in 1783 and 1784. they had no American men of
war, they had no Russian fleet, they had no French men
of war, manned and equipped as they now were.—
( Hear, hear.) He contended that the vessels upon
the coast of Africa and other places for the purpose
of capturing slaves were so inefficiently manned, that
they were obliged to leave their cruizing ground when
they took a slaver, and bring her into port for want of
crews to man the prize. In fact there was not a vessel
in the service, from a first rate man-of-war down to a
sloop that was not from 50 to 20 men short of their
complement. He did not advocate the present ques-
tion from party motives—the cause of the Navy was not
that of party, and was advocated by men of all parties.
He regretted however to say that the question was
taken up on different grounds by Hon. Members oppo-
site, but it came with a bad grace from that party, which
at the time of the American war sent out ships ineffici-
ently manned, and thereby sacrificed both ships and men.
The Hon. and Gallant Member then alluded to the
blockade of Vera Cruz, and said he believed nothing had
been lost by the British fleet not having arrived at an
earlier period off the coast. He trusted the discussion
that had taken place would induce her Majesty's Go-
vernment to take the subject into its immediate conside-
ration, and he would conclude by cordially supporting
the motion of his Hon. and Gallant Friend.

Captain BERKELEY believed the state of the
Navy had excited disgust in the minds of men of all
parties, and it was time to take some steps to remedy
the evil that had been so loudly and :generally com-
plained of. If these ships were really intended for the
protection of the British flag, he trusted the practice of
sending them out with inefficient crews would be put an
end to. The Hon. and Gallant Member then referred
to the manning and equipment of the American frigates
which had read them such a severe lesson during the
late war. If any quarrel unfortunately arose, and they
had a proof that such
.was not unlikely in the recent
conduct of a hot French Prince, their frigates which
were armed with 10ng.42-pounders, requiring thirteen
men to work each gun, would go into action with eight
guns mute. The Hon. Member for Birmingham, the
other night, said it was possible that a Russian fleet
might sail up the Thames. The Secretary to the Ad-
miralty admitted the possibility, but, said he, "See what
revenge we will take." What would the merchants of
London, Bristol, Liverpool, and other ports, say to re-
venge of this sort ? When their vessels were destroyed,
would they be satisfied with the declaration that revenge
shouldbe taken when vessels were built and manned ? No :
they would say their best revenge would be the im-
peachment of the First Lord of the Admiralty.—
(Cheers.) The reign of George the Fourth ought to
be held up as a beacon to warn all future Admiralties.
Had this motion been brought forward during the reign
of his late Majesty, the Admiralty would have had the
advantage of the opinion of that monarch--(Hear,
hear)—for no man complained more of the imbecility
of the Admiralty during his brother's reign.—(Hear,
hear.) Although he hoped that the reign of her Ma-
jesty Queen Victoria would be rather the revival of the
golden age of literature than a reign of warfare, it was
the duty of the country to place her Majesty in this
position, that if she should be called on to draw the
sword in a just quarrel, she might be able to rival the
glorious reign of her great predecessor, Queen Eliza-
beth.—( Hear, hear.) He cordially supported the
motion of the Gallant Admiral, because it was calcu-
lated to render more effective our real constitutional
bulwark.--(Cheers.)
Admiral ADAM said that from the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down it might be
supposed the Navy was in the lowest state of degrada-
tion, but the reverse was the case. This mode of treat-
ing the Navy was not what it ought to be, and he main- ,
tained the position brought forward had not been made
out. No one could deny that foreign powers bad taken
great pains to put their ships in an efficient state, but it
should be considered how few were afloat, and that
many of them were merely experimental vessels. After
going into a variety of details the Gallant Admiral con-
cluded by opposing the motion.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said he should be glad to see
more ships in commission ; but if that object could not
be attained, those in commission ought to be more effi-
ciently manned.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME deprecated the constant cry in that
House of keeping up war establishments in a time of
peace. However, he did not think that House had
anything to do with the disposal of the men they have
voted, it would be taking that responsibility from the
Admiralty which ought to rest upon them. He fully
believed that we had now one-third of our ships to
dispose of. We could dispense with one-third of our ships.
(Hear and laughter-) He did think so, and he could
not agree to the motion.
Sir E. CODRINGTON in reply said even on the
score of economy the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
ought to vote for his motion, because he did not ask
for more men, but that one or two ships should be
discharged, and the men drafted to other
ships, so that they might be rendered efficient.—
(Cheers.) He clJimed the vote of the Hon. Member,
because, by his plan, there would he a saving of stores
for the ships he wanted out of commission. The pre-
sent Government only continued the old system of the
Tory misrule.—(Cheers.) He had represented the
state of the Navy to the Noble Lord and to the Pre-
mier, and to the Admiralty, but they all said the sys-
tem was working very well. He would rather go to
sea with ten ships well manned than with twenty ships
half manned, according to the present system.—(Cheers.)
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The
House dis ided, when there appeared—

For the motion ... 27
Against it

Majority _ —77

On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. WARD
moving for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the Me-
tropolitan Sewers.—Agreed to.
Colonel DAVIES obtained leave to bring in a Bill
to regulate the expenses of the office of Hie'She riff.
LIGHTING OF THE HOUSE.

Sir 1% TRENCH then rose to move that the pre-
sent mode of lighting the House was satisfactory, and
that further experiments were unnecessary. He said,
before entering upon the question he felt bound to ten-
der a most humbly and ample apology to the Speaker
for pressing a complaint of some of the officers last F. iday
in a manner that was out of order. The Speaker called
himself the servant of the House ; he thought he was its
master ; lie was a schoolmaster, and had a most unruly lot
of youths to preside over, and really he kept them in
as good order as it was possible to do without the power of
corporeal punishment. The complaint he had to make
was, that though the extra number of lights ordered had
been restored, yet that they were more of an
inferior quality, so that 240 candles gave
no more light than 180 did before. There
never was a more dangerous, a more injudicious,
or a more impracticable experiment than that which
was about to be made. If he had given comfort or sa-
tisfaction even to a small portion of the Members, he
should feel amply rewarded for all the trouble he had
taken on this subject.
Lord INGESTRIE seconded the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
hoped the Hon. and Gallant Member would withdraw
his motion until the experiments about to be tried were
proved to be satisfactory or unsatisfactory ; and he
thought the House of Commons might be better occu-
pied than in wasting their time with discussions of this
sort, which could only make them look ridiculous in the
eyes of the public.—(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. HUME,
. . .

Sir F. TRENCH withdrew his motion, and gave
notice that he should on Monday next take the opinion
of the House as to whether the present mode of lighting
the House was satisfactory or not.

etas one only thus circumstanced, the law relating to
the police, and the Governor had the power of remedy-
ing any evil that might arise from the non-renewal of
that laW. There was, therefore, no necessity for this
measure, nor could there be until the Governor had
called the Assembly together, and they had refused to
discharge their functions. He might rest the case
here, but in justice to the House and his clients, he
must state the real state of things in Jamaica at
the present moment. The proposition he would lay
down was, that under the state of things existing in
Jamaica it was not open to the House of Assembly
to adopt any other course than they had adopted up to
the present moment, no single individual, either in or
out of the colony, had attempted to conciliate them.
Certain measures became necessary, in consequence of
the abolition of slavery. In the great work of emanci-
pation Jamaica had done her part—an appeal was made
to the colonies to shorten the period of apprenticeship,
and the Assembly of Jamaica assented. The Act for
doing this was received in England on the very day the
Colonial Secretary introduced into the House of Lords
the Prison Bill ; this was felt in Jamaica as an unkind
return for the compliance shown. That Bill became law,
and was sent out to Jamaica. Several previous coalmu-
nications on the subject had been, immediately on theirar-
rival, noticed by the Governor in his communications to
the House of Assembly, but this Act was not so noticed
and its existence was unknown until it was affixed on the
walls, with a proclamation of the Governor, stating it
was to take effect. Such a thing would be resented by
this House temperately ; it was resented by the Ja-
maica House of Assembly, not he thought intempe-
rately. This was the cause of the conduct of the As-
sembly, and they had no other course to take. The
Constitution of Jamaica, as established by King Charles
the Second, was of a popular character ; shortly after
the Constitution was promulgated the Governor was
ordered to call together what was tantamount to the
House of Assembly. After an ineffectual struggle to
deny their authority the question was referred to the
Judges in England, and the Crown gave way and ac-
knowledged the power of the Assembly of Jamaica.
In all controversies that had arisen respecting the Le-
gislative Assembly of Jamaica, the constant language
used by the Crown had been that the Assembly should
be called and summoned in the manner usually accus-
tomed. Whatever abstract notions they might have of
the power of the Crown over dependent colonies, he
was prepared to say that by the express proclamation of
the Crown, and by the usage and practice of Jamaica,
there was an independent legislative power in the House
of Assembly for the purpose of internal regu-
lation. That power was exercised at the close
of the reign of Charles the Second, and after
great disputes during that time between the Crown
and the Colony of Jamaica, an arrangement was come to
which was embodied in a local Act, which gave to the
Crown a permanent revenue, but secured to the Colony
its laws, one of which was an independent legislative
power for the purpose of internal Government.
Could any person doubt that the regulation of the pri-
soners of the country was a subject of internal regula-
tion? If any doubt was entertained on that subject he
could refer to a long succession of Acts which
had been passed by the Assembly of Jamaica, re-
gulating prisons, and those statutes he thought was
a sufficient answer to any case that could be set up.
There was no Assembly more willing to carry into effect
the wishes of the Legislature. A member of the Assem-
bly, a gentleman of colour, a most able, active, and in-
telligent man, had in the course of preparation a Bill
for the better regulation of prison; when the Com-
missioner sent by the Imperial Government arrived in
Jamaica. And he contended the prison law and disci-
pline were part of the internal right of the Assembly,
with which the Government at home should never in-
terfere. Captain Pringle's report found that there was
no necessity for the Imperial Prison Bill—that the
charge of cruelty by the planters was exaggerated, and
that the general abuse complained of had already been
in a great degree corrected. There never had been a
Bill hurried through the Houses of Parliament, sub silen-
tio, more insignificant and less operative than this Bill.
The Bill was not suited to the wants of the Colony.
No, it was nothing more than a few clauses selected
out of the Prisons Bills of this country, and sent out
to take its chance in Jamaica. It would, however, be
perfectly useless if the local Legislature did not exer-
cise its powers as to the raising of a revenue for the
purposes of building these prisons. Was such a Bill
likely to be adopted by the Colonial Legislature ?
The Governor tried the experiment of a dissolution,
and out of the five of the minority four lost their places
—they rejected those who hesitated about the resolutions.
That proved that the people were determinedly in fa-
vour of these resolutions. The conduct of the Assembly
had his utmost applause ; and in a British House of
Commons it ought to meet witt respect. Considering
the kindness and attention which had been shown last
night, he would waive many collateral points which he
had intended to bring under the notice of the House.
In Barbadoes, upon this very Prison Bill conciliation
had smoothed all difficulties.—(Hear, hear.) He
wished that the same spirit was shown in the case of
Jamaica. They were the free people of a free country,
and they expected to receive the treatment to which
they were entitled. If the Legislature of England had
done wrong in the present case they could not hesitate
to retrace their steps and undo the injustice. He
trusted he had made out a sufficient case to warrant
the interference of the British Parliament. It was im-
possible the Bill could pass in its present shape,
and he could tell that House that it was mon-
strous to trifle in that way with the inte-
rests of the Colony. There were men of colour
in the learned professions—there were men of colour on
the Magisterial Bench, and in the House of Assembly,
and he believed the Colony was much indebted to them
for their exertions in promoting the best interests of
the Colony. He hoped the House would pause, there-
fore, before it would mar their exertions.
Sergeant MEREWETHER then withdrew.
In answer to a question from Mr. GODSON,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the discussion would
take place on the question that the Speaker do leave the
Chair, on Monday next.
The House then adjourned at Half past Eleven.

PARLIAMENTARY DIV ISION.

(From the Yates and Proceedings o
TUESDAY, APRIL 23, 1839.
f the llonsc of Commons.)
NAVY.

tlotion made, and Question put, " That the system of re-
ducing the Crews of her Majesty's ships, in time of Peace,
below the number required to snake them efficient in time of
War, is injurious to the best interests of the service ; and that
it is the opinion of this House, that all her Abjesty's ships,
when actively employed or about to quit the British Channel,
should in future have but one complement of men, whether in
Peace or War :" (Admiral Codrington :) The House
divided :

MINORITY--
AYES,
An:11clall, General Godson, Itichird
Attwood. 'l'. Grimsditch, Thomas
Bentinek, Lord G. Ha!fora,
Berkeley, F. H. H .wkes, T
Berkeley, 11. n. C. Jackson, J. D.
Boldero, Henry G. Maclean, D.
Bruges, W. H. L. Maunsell, T. p
Courtenay, Maxwell, s R.
Dundas, C. W. 1). Parker, It. T.
Farnham, E. B. Pechell, Captain

Plumptrc, J. P.
Salwey, Colonel
Sibthorp, Colonel
Smyth, Sir G. 1.1
Trench, Sir Frederick
Vivian, J E.
Wiiliams, W.

MAJORITY—NOES,
Abercromby, G. R. Howiek, Lord
&dam, Admil al Sir C. Hume. Joseph
Baring, 1' T. I 1 iunplierv, J.
Barnard, E. G. Hutton, Robert
B.aTy, G. S. Ingham, Robert
Bernal, R.
Labouchere, H.
Lister, E .C.
Ilewei T.
Blake, M. J. Lynch, A. a
:NPl,eoil, R.
lll,ke, N. J.
Bri,coe, J. I. Marsiand, H.
Buller, C. .113,:le, Hon F-x.
Chichester, J. P. B.
Nlelgu d, Lord
t hilders, J. W, Molieth, Vkcount
Craig, NV. Gibson
Morris, DAvid
Carry, W. Muskett, G. A.
Davies, ('oionel "t/:igle, sir it
Dunkin, Sir IL Noel, W. M.J
Eliot, Hon J. E. Norreys, Sir J D.
Evens, W. O'Callaghan, D.
Finch, Francis O'Connell, D.
Fitzsimon, N. O'Connell, Morgan
Fort, John O'Connell, M.
Gordon, R. O'Ferrall, More
Grey, Sir G. Paget, Lord Alfred
Nance, B. parker, John I
Hayter, G. W. Parnell, Sir H.
Hodges, T L. Pease, Joicph
lloagson, Richard Bigot,
1). It.
Hoskins, K. Price, Sir R.
Ho card, F. J. Protheroc, E.
Howard, P. H. Pryme, G.

TELLE RS.
C, drington, Sir E.
Ingestrie, Lord

90.
Itice, T. S.
'nekton], W.
Roche, Sir 11.
'toile, Sir R. M.
Russel!, Lout Julni
Seholetield, J.
Smith, Beni :min
!ivory'', lion. F.
Stanley, W. 0.
Stanstield, W. It. C,
Steuart, It.
Stock, Dr.
Strickland, Sir G.
Tancrett, H. \V.
Thornely, Thonini
Troubridge, Sir 'l'.
Turner, Edomod
Turner, NVini,in
Verney, Sir H.
Vigors, N. A
Vivian, Sir R.
Walker, R.
Warburton, H.
Ward, G H.
W.l here, William
Wood, C.
Wood, G. W,
Yates, John A.

TELLERS.
Dal meny, Lont
St.inlay, E. J.

NATIONAL ANTI-POOR-LAW AS
SOCIATION.

Last night the Delegates, representing numerous
parishes of the Metropolis, assembled in the Freemason's
Tavern, Great Queen-street, Lincoln's Inn-fields, for the
purpose of forming an Association to promote a repeal of
the New Poor Law Act. Delegates were present from
St. °lave's, Southwark, St. George the Martyr, Lam-
beth, St. Swithin, St. Leonard's, Shoreditch, St. Brides,
St. Dunstan's, Fleet-street, St. Paul's, Covent-garden,
St. Martin's-in-the-Felds, St. Andrew's, Holborn, Mary-
lebone, Chelsea, Kensington, Hendon, St. James,West-
minster, St. Anne, Westminster, St. Mary, Newington,
St. Giles, and other parishes, the names of which could
not be distinguished.
The assembly was addressed by Messrs. Day, Ken-
sett, Thomas, and Baxter, in support of the resolutions
proposed. Those resolutions were passed and were
to the effect that the meeting should form itself into
a National Anti-Poor-law Association, and that a Com-
mittee, comprising thirty of the Delegates, should pre-
pare rules and regulations for the government of the
Association, and that such rules should be submitted
to a general meeting, to be held on an early day for
adoption. After this business had been disposed of,
and the Committee named, a vote of thanks was passed
unanimously to the Chairman, Mr. Hopwood, for his
excellent conduct in the Chair, and his unceasing ex-
ertions in promoting the objects for which they were
assembled.
The meeting separated at a late

Last week, owing to high words which occurred
during a municiprl debate, the Mayor of Portsmouth was
compelled to bind over two of the town council to keep the
peace. . .