The Sun.
London, England, 1801-03-11 00:00:00

,ciglfy)vo94l. colpy trir979, away, pe
cause it would be time employed-upon as,:elttiii-
ng:that Mali was of no value ; wlie;eas, if the
other course was taken, that of itiquiring inie, the
law first, time might —indeed- be saved, for if
it should tnrr out Sy law that a Ptiest7 licit
disivakified, theulhe, faa of Mr. HPlikrijooK E
being a Iriest, would Pass by alto-getter, , Thai
therefore was the way to save time, if that
.was the objets- of suplialeri 'Of this Mo-
tion. It was said, that the Npble Lord
assumed that N'lr.lloawr. TO 01E was ineligible
because he- was a---P-nest:---New -there—was no
justice in the idea of going into an inquiry of
raft, merely but a• use there was _an.. assurnption.of
Law. That assumption should first be disposed
of, and if in; the affiimiti've, an inquiry would
then be necessary into the faet, because the fart
would then become material.

- IjirilYEMP LE Said, that Gentlemen had called
for Precedents:, uponfthis subject--there Was one
which occurred to him, and which appeared to
him, precisely in point. It was the case of-COL.
CAWTHORNE upon that oecasion the first' thing
,done was -to move for the proceedings of the
cotitt:Martial—rHis: Lordship said,..he was not
in the House at the time, but he believed that
was the course pursued upon-that. occasion.
-Mi.. W DUNDAS said, that it appeared to
him that if the mode of proceeding which ,the
Gentlemen on the other side contended for, was
adopted, there would be .no end of inquiries ;
because-any Gentleman might gratify his curiosity
by :proposing. any abstra& question whatever, and
might call upon the House to decide upon it. For
instanee,,, if. any, Gentleman had a, curiosity to
knoW whether .a man of Colour was entitled to
sit intthat House, he:might, if he pleased (upon
the; principles contended for- by the Gentlenrien
orr,the other side of the H-use) call upon the
House to appoint a Committee to determine it.
If a person were to make a Motion 'of that kind,
would not the have a right. to ask. the
Gentleman, for what purpose he called upon the
House 'to decide the Question ? It appeared to
him absurd to-say .they would not. What had
been the, usage of ••Parliatnent upon this subjea ?.
He wished particularly to ask the Honourable
Gentleman who, spoke last •but one, What was
hii conduCt -upon a former occasion, when he made
IVlOtion about the Ilirrif .eCi-etary of State?-==
'He recolleaed the circumstance perfealy well, be-
cause it was t'he first day he took his seat in that
House; in the fear 1795. 'The Hon. Gentleman
seeing a Rt. Hon. Gentleman (Mr. DUNDAS) in
the HoUse, said, " I. see an illustrious Stranger
in the House, I .move that he may withdraw."
The Hon. Gentleman did not then adopt the
mode for whichhenowso strenuously contended,
viz. move} for a Committee to inquire whether
that Rt. ion.-Gentleman,.as Third Secretary of
State, was entitled to a seat in that House, but
he immediately moved that the Rt.. -Hon. Gent-ie.

, .
consistent with the, (latrine which he had ad-
vanced upon this occasion.
Mr. SHERIDAN said, he certainly had not
upon that occasion•moved for aCommittee to de.
cide .the. obstruct point, because he moved it
upon a positive Statute.
Mr. Wm. DUNDAS explained.
1: H. ADDINGTON supported the Mo.
tion of the Noble Lord, and contended, that the
plan Of proceeding he had proposed, was the most
consistent with the usual proceedings of the
House.

Mr. FOX said, that every thing he had heard
since the commencement of ;he discussion, had not
only iotifirined him more and more in the opinion
which he had at' first entertained, but • had con-
vinced. him of the propriety of the Motion with
which he should- conclude. The Gentlemen on
the other. side, in arguing this Question, had con-
tended, that they did not see. the difference be-
tween written and parole• es, idence, but had not
done that which they had been called upon to do,
namely, ptoduCe a precedent of Witnesses being
called to the Bar in the-first instance, without any
previous ground being laid for inquiry, or with-
out some determination of the House to go into
an examination. Every Member of that Houk
knew that it was the constant course to call for
Papers,. though in innumerable instances no pro-
ceedings whatever were grounded upon them ;
but there was a material difference between mov-
ing for Pipers, and' calling Witnesses to the Bar
in order to be examined. But what was the
course of proceeding, it-

Mr: RAKER rose to call the Hon. Gentleman
to Order. The Hon. Gentleman had already
delivered his -sentiments 'more than once during
the debate, and he was now beginning another
speech, :with a notice that-it was to end with a
Motion, a. proceeding which appeared to him
wholly. irregular. He begged to ask ,the Hon.
Gentleman what Motion he could pake in the
present stage of the proceeding, except for an
amendment, for the Order of the Day, or to ad-
journ ? Now 'he did not see how the Hon. Geptie-
nian's speech was applicable to any of these
notions.

The SPEAKER_ said, that when the Hon.
Gentleman had expressed'his intention of making
a Motion, he was bound to suppose that it was
One which he could with propriety make. HC
certainly could not suppose that a Gentleman who
dhadbeen so ion 'mtbe,liouse as the lion. .Qcn.
tlernan had; would give notice of a Motion mere:
ly to give_him an opportunity of making a speech,

Mr. FOA said if the Hon. Gentleman wished
to know what the nature of his_ Motion was, !he
had.no..wish..to conceal it—it was for an. Ad!
jaurnment, and he,had flattered
.himself that- as
an Old Member of Parliament, the Howe, and
partioularlpthe licm. Gentleman who had c..slied
him to Drder, would have given him...credit for
not making a:Motion merely as &pretext to let
him in to,rnakupaispeech. ,
Sir 07. YOUNG spoite to Order; he said
he 'understodd that a Gentleman might un-
doubtedly-move an A4journmegiti but it, must be
at the end of his first speeeli) bat that he had no
right to maize- a second speech- in-ordor- to-iutro-
duce the Motion, •

Ve
01 111-I.li ti:l 1/4/1. 1./1". xsoa..r_

!Centteinn had a right to nitiv'e the.-Questioh of
Adjournment.. . .
FOX- he 'conceived that nothing
could be snore clear. than that any: Gentleman
might, if hu pleased, move to,adjourn, and .state
his reasons for so doing : he was then going to
, proceed with his arguMent, w.heFt''
The SOLICITOR GENERAL spoke to Order :
he
.said, -the - Hon. Gentlanait' hart a: right to
state his reasons for moving to adjoarn, but he-.
did not conceive he was at liberty to rei..ent his
former Speech; and to rkly to eviry.ntleitian
who had followed-him: - •
The SPEAKER said, the Holt. _Gentleman,
undoubtedly, had not a right to go into, the ar-
guments which had been
,previously urged, bat
was merely to state his. reasons-for - moving ,
.to

adjourn;
: . Mr.: SIIERIDAN spoke to Order : he said,
it would be rather singular, if a.Gentleman _who
moved for an Adjournment,
.wasaaot allowed to,
state his reasons for Making such a". Motion., A
Gentleman. was undpubteOly. bound to state
whatever occurred tollinein hits first speech, but
.if,4:the. Course „of debate,. fresh matter arose,
which induced him eoathink that further inquiry
would be necessary, he had a right to move to
adjourn, and [9.4 ta te-th,c, reasons . w hy. he thought
•it right, to make that Motion. He then moved
to adjourn.-"
Mr. FOX said, that., nothing could be more
clear, than that if a 'Member had a right to
.move
to Adjourn, , lr .had .a right to state his
reasons for iht: nation.. A Learned Gentleman
,on.the other side had contended that though a
,Member making such a -MOtion had a right to
state his reasons for so doing, yet that he had no
right to cornment upon the former part' of the
Debate. He begged to ask, what were the-usual
reasons for moving-to Adjourn' Sometimes it
was from the lateness of the hour, bite in general
it was in consequenee of some things which had
occurred imp the course of the Debate, and surely a
,'. Member_ had a right to allude to those cireum-
Istances, in order to- shew that the House ought
4 not. immediately to
,proceed to a decision.H-It
had ;been ' said, that the World was ' every day
grc4iag 'wiser, and , it certainly had improved
very much, if this species of Metaphysics was to
prevail, and for one, 'lw confessed he -Uras too' old
to learn it. a
. , .. .
Mr. BRAGGE spoke to Order; she said that
there had been for some time a very great inat-
tention to Order ; an Hon. Gentleman (Mr.. Sit E-
RIDAN) who rose to speak to Order, concluded
with a MOtion to-Adjourn,- which was not regu-
lar. It appeared to him perfectly clear, that.any
Gentleman might, if he pleased, move to Ad-
journ, but he ought not to make that a pretext
for making a general speech upon the subje.l.
Mr. W. DUNDAS spoke to Order ; he said
,if every Gentleman had a right to preface a Mo-
tion o t us •in. y a speec upon -t e general
question, a Gentleman might make as many
speeches as he pleased, because he could easily
conclude with a Motion... - . • .
Mr. FQX said, he was sorry to detain the
HOuse;lnt it appeared to him that there-could
be no doubt of the, right, which he was can_
tending :. Certainly if a'Oentlemaii was to make
a Motion merely as a pretext for making a speech',
the House N%ould interfere, Put what had pissed
that night was sufficient to thew that the orders-
of
.the Hous.' might be evaded, becauSe if he
had not -a rigtit to make a speech on his own
motion -to adjourn, there was no doubt but that
he had a right tomake a speech if any body else
had moved to adjourn. The Motion with which
he meant to conclude was either to adjourn, or if
there were any other Orders of the Day, to
move that those Orders should be read. the in.
terruptions he had experienced had broken the
chain of his-argument, but he would now proceed
to state his reasons for. moving to adjourn,
and he assured the House that Motion was
not made as a pretext to enable him to make
a speech. He was going to state a-a'beil he
was interrupted, that the Llouse ,had always
made . a difference between -parole evidence
and written documents. With. respell to what
had fallen from some'Gentlemen on the other
side, respelling the praetice..of .Courts of Law,
he confessed it had rather surprised him. It un-
doubtedly never could be. the prailice in a Court
of Law, to examine evidence without some pre-
vious proceeding,. such as a'declaration in a Civil
Action, or an Indiamnnt in a Criminal Case.—
But what he complained of in . the present case
%03._.that there had, been,,,no; previous Inciniry.
established.
Mr. RAICE,R spoke to Order, and contended
that although the Hon. Gentleman might mean to'
move an Adjournment, he had no right to go
over the whole Debate again. _
The SPEAKER said heavas upon the, point of
calling the Hon. Gentleman to Order, becata.e
he had commented tipicin *hat ' had- previously!.
passed in the Debate. He had a right to state
his reasons .why the House should Adjourn, but
he had no right,.under the pretence .olinoving to
Adjourn, to reply to what had previously fallen
in the course of the Debate.
Mr. FOX said, he Must,• he supposed, submit
to this new order of the" -louse peretbere Beat,
-a great cry of" Q-d,:r.l Order Pl.. He ' said he
must, he iupposed, submit to what appeared to
him to be a new order of the House,{ but he would
not submit. without entering his Notes; 3virst
it, ankigainst being told 'that' he made 7mis.lllo.
. tion the pretence for: replying. what -had fallen
in the debate, when in fad he was aliewing,: by
strimt logical reasons, that the House was not`
then in a condition to come- to a decision upon
the Question before them. . If the:.l-lolit.e meant
to lay down, this new order, he Must submit,
though he could not find:any precedent for if.—+
-He would; however;' prcTeed ra his • argamenri
notwithuanaing_ the' shai:klaa awhieh " had been
laid.on him. He now undepsraod that he might
not a&ert--he begged; kiardcal---Le might , ad.
.Kett to,..but he must not answcri.:iny of the ar-
, gutnents which bad been used, rf 11-e.4-9use. in his.

cause if they, did it would, i.i hit.; -opinion, be
contrary. .to the established usage of Pa.flia-
merit. Another reason. he thew from the
analogy of proceedings in Coutts of Law, where
no Counsel would ever propose to call a Witness
to establish a fart, unless some previous proceed.
ing had been instituted ; for .instance, would
any Judze sVer a Counsel to call a Witness to
prove -that a tt:J± went to St. James's-street and
bnught a sword and a pistol, without laying some
previous greuil, or shewing.that it was done
with a bad- intenciou ? Another reason he had
for propoing to adjourn was, that there appear-
ed to him, to be much better modes of prOt ced-
ing itrthi's Case than that which ti Noble Lord
had suggested ; and he proposed to adjouh, Fn
hopes that seine Gentlemen Would propose' son'tt
other plan to the House, and if they did nor, he
should himself suggest another mOde of proceed-
ing, If,, htwever, the House was averse to
every thing.like delay upon this subjea; he was
afraid that his plan would not be very pleasing:
He had really colleded t o little in the course of
the Debate which had taken place, •that he .
thought the best way would be to appoint a Com-
mittee to look let° Precedents, nor to examine
whether a Priest had Wright to sit in that House,
.but to see what was the mode of pl'oceeding-
which' the House had adopted upon occasions'
similar to the present, where they were to deter- I.
mine upon the eligibility or ineligibility of a
Member. The ConStitution of this Country way
such as to tender cases similar to the present very
rare, because there was generally a Petition against
the person returned ; but there Were, he supposed,
some cases to be found like the present, iviiera
there could be no, Petition from the Eledors, and
where therefore the business must be taken up by
the House. - Much had been said about Mr.
GR ENV I LLE'S Bill; he certainly at first strongly
opposed that Bill, but a very short period had
'elapsed before he was sensible of his error, and -
he was convinced of- the excellence of the mea.
sure. If, howerer, the House were now in a
situation in which they could not apply the regu-
lations'of that Bill to this case, they ought to con_
form as nearly to its-spirit as they coohi. It migl.t
Ise supposed that he had sonec personal feelings
upon this subject, because in the year 1784.;wlien
he was returned to Parliament by a great majority
of the lodepeodent Eleaors for WesuninSter, his
return had been unjustly delayed ; liL had a right
to say so, because it had beep so determined in a
cOurt of Justice. WECII that came before the
House, instead of ading 'upon the. spirit of Mr.
Garrivretr's Bill, the House chose to revert to
the old course of proceeding, and voted the conti-
nuance of the Scrutiny : at last, however, the House
felt that it was wrong; and the point was given
up. What inference did.he draw from this ? lhe
Bill was, founded upon the idea that the House
was a partial Judicature in cast's of this wind, 'and
therefore he contended that in 'ewes in which
Parliament 'admitted itself to be liable to par-
tiality,: it ought anxiously to endeavonr to
adopt the regulations of the Bill, or at least to'
aa. as 'much upon the spirit: of it as possible.
His proposal, therefore, ,would be, to appoint a
Select Committee, to whom the case should be
referred in -the first instance, ,before they. in.;:
vestigated. the question of fact. .He was the
more o:o2xious for the adoption of this mode,
because he thought the •House ought` to suety to
the world, ,that • they had not acted with. heat
or Precipitation upon this important ques,tion.—
With respeei to the question, Whether a Priest
had or: had .not ,41 right. to sit in that house ?
he should not at present give any opinion. It .was
a queation.pf great importance, and:called far the
most mature consideration. Upon these greued's
he moved, than the .douse do now adjourn.

The SPEAKER said, the Hon. Gentletnaft
seemed lurt at his having used the word prc.
tence•; -he• begged to• assure the Hon..Geritlenum
that he did not use it in an invidious tense, ur
with a view to hurt his feelings'."
Mr. FOX said ht-was perfet,t!v satisfied, and
begged to return -his thanks, for what had just
fallen front the Chair.

Cdortel 111.112-rry said, that'a distinaion had
been made, for,which'tiv..•.re appeared to hire to be
no foundatioh, between the reception of Ivritten
evidence, and the examination of Witnetises at

the, liar:, forjt appeared to him that there Was.. 'a
Much stronger teasonfor exaMining- the Witnesses
immecliately; than there was for receiving the
written documents ; fir 'a Witness, Ind perhaps
the only Witness to a fats; might die, but written'
evidence-could at any tithebe.produced. It had
Leeripid, that a Court oflastite never, 'entered
'into ..the examination of ' Witnesses, unLss .. a
preN;i6us inquiry Was establisligsa, bvt: this was
not the case, tbr the Court of Chancery fie-.
quentlygranted commis6ons to examine
,Wit_
ilessesYik hi.,:ie ene, Wfore the Bill did not pray
for any' piiiiicular' relief. * An. I-fon. Gentleman,
had put a clise,-of the Honse being calle:,l upodta_
decide, whether a,Mar. of-Colon; could sit is it.
He believe,) this was'not to imigiliary. a case :tis
the. Hon. Genthralan supposed, f:\r he harLheard
*that if the 'present :11,fember. fbr•Old Sawn% lost
hi 4 seat, a person of that description would-tz—
T Here t,64.; Hon. Mezi3er qua i Cti 1,,' :I ;',i 0 rder.
ke concluded 'with giving Hs assert to. thp •hdo..
tion for calling in the Wirn'essesi.. t
'nit. 41.16 t ipn wirstitcre:loudiy.ctilled, for, e 7 .
`'l<r:rd TEM Pa said) '11... tv6ukl not clel.3)''the'
ITIOue, pne:nii4lute, 'lit: s iihed wrely test4te'.o-1C
USC to, wYch he had. before alluded, vii: th.ig
of Co!onel CAW I'llo kNE , UpCill 'Olt occasiou,
the first stCp';llat.wa's. taken was'to vote an Ad..
arm; ..t(i, His MAJEs-ry, prayirs that he would
be ple4lied• to ig'i e diretlions thlit' a Copy of the
PrOcee4ngs of
,4he
,court Martial .which had. been
,
held ummColonel. CAw Tli ORt9 c; F.llollld .be .iald
before the liOuse. ' 'then Proceeding. s werd,hid
loe(otc the House, ;Ind )I,pott Om the House ex_
polled bun,' withi-idt'fiaing apFint,d any Com-
mittee. He merely..w i.shed. to 'state this.case, be_
cause it appeared 'iii _hi in t o,be tOMpletety in point
_to.the.present iinebtion.
_; • , , . •
1... . the-Question
being again Zalled 'for.--:-.4fie
House— : viaeti upon . Mr. Fox's' Motion ofird.