The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-14 00:00:00

4nvas entertained by the House whether the Poor-law Amend-
"nent Act ought to be altogether repealed and set aside.—
Hear, hear.) He should strenuously oppose such a motion.
erhaps the Hon. Gentleman would say if he was prepared to
ring forward his motion in that reasonable shape in which it
.could not be objected to, because in that case a Conrnittec
n ight be named on Monday without any opposition or debate.
Mr. WALTER said the Noble Lord proposed he should
take a course which would defeat the object he had in view ;
be begged therefore to adhere to the terms of his original
motion, and if the Noble Lord had no objection he would
bring the question forward on Wednesday night, as an amend-
ment to the order of the day being read.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no personal objection to the
motion being made on 'Wednesday as proposed by the Hon.
Member; but he thought there would be an objection, on the
part of the House, to a motion being brought forward on a
day on which it was arranged that orders of the clay should
base precedence.
Mr. WALTER—Then he would say Tuesday—( A laugh)
—or any other day the Noble Lcrd would name. He would
say Monday or Tuesday.—( A laugh, and cries of " Saturday.")
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he did not know any day,
except a notice day, on which it would be convenient for the
Hon. Gentleman to bring forward his motion.; but there was
a notice of a motion by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and
he imagined that on that day the House could take the two
discussions.

POOR-LAWS (IRELAND.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I beg to move the order of the
day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of the
whole House on so much of the King's speech as relates to the
establishing of poor-laws in Ireland.
The House having gone into Committee, the following pas-
sages in the King's speech were read by the clerk :
" My Lords and Gentlemen, his Majesty has more espe-
cially commanded us to bring under your notice the state of
Ireland, and the wisdom of adopting all such measures as
may improve the condition of that part of the United King..
dom. His Majesty recommends to your early consideration
the present constitution of the Municipal Corporations of that
country, the collection of tithes, and the difficult but pressing
question of establishing some legal provision for the poor,
guarded by prudent regulations, and by such precautions
against abuse as your experience and knowledge of the subject
enable you to suggest. His Majesty commits these great in-
terests into your hands in the confidence that you will be able
to frame laws in accordance with the wishes of his Majesty
and the expectation of his people. His Majesty is persuad.ed
that, should this hope be fulfilled, you will not only contribute
to the welfare of Ireland, but strengthen the Law and Consti-
tution of these realms by securing their benefits to all classes
of his Majesty's subjects."
raird JOHN RUSSELL then rose and spoke to the fel-
' 1„1.,- in, effect : I feel, Sir, the great importance of the sub-
jTa vaich I am about to bring under the consideration of the
House ; at the same time, I feel it is one which, while it has
received much discussion, while it has been the subject of a
Report made by Commissioners appointed by his Majesty,
who collected a great deal of information in relation to it, is
likewise a matter which I can rely confidently the House, thus
prepared, will come to the consideration of, not only with the
necessary information at its command, but with a desire to form
a safe and dispassionate conclusion. I will preface what 1
have to say on the subject of Poor-laws for Ireland with so me
few observations as to the advantages which may be derived
from Poor-laws in general, the manner in which a Poor-law
should be applied, and the abuses to which it is subject.
These are matters which arc illustrated, I think, very fully
and sufficiently in the history of this country. It appears, from
the testimony both of theory and experience that when a coun-
try is in such a state that it is overrun by numbers, both of
marauders and of mendicants, having no proper means of
subsistence, a prey on the industry of the country, and rely-
ing on the indulgent charity of others, the introduction of
Poor-laws serves several very important objects. = (Hear,
hear.) In the first place a Poor-law acts as a measure of
peace—( Hear, hear, hear)—enabling the country to prohibit
vagrancy, and to prohibit those vagrantss occupations which are
so often connected with outrage. It acts in this way by the
very simple process of offering a subterfuge to those who rels
on such means for subsistence. It is an injustice eo the com-
mon sense of mankind when a single person or family are un-
able to obtain the means of subsistence, when they are alto-
gether without the means of livelihood from day to day, to say
they shall not go about the country to endeavour to obtain
from the charity of those who are affluent that which cir-
cumstances have denied to them. But when once you car.
say, Here are the means of subsistence so far as subsistence
is concerned—that is offered to you ; when yen can say this,
you can say on the other hand, You are not entitled to demand
charity, you shall no longer infest the country in a manner in-
jurious to its peace, and which is favourable to the imposter.
—( Hear, bear.) Another way in which a Poor-law is bene-
ficial is, that it is of itself a great promoter of social concord,
showing a disposition in the state and in the community at
large to attend to the welfare of all classes.—( Hear, hear.)
It is of use, also, inasmuch as it interests more especially
tho landowners and persons of property in the country in the
welfare of their tenants and their neighbours.—( Cheers ) A
person possessed of considerable property, who looks only
to receive the rents of his estate, may be careless as to the
number of persons who may be found in a state of destitution,
in a state of mendicancy, or ready to commit crime and act
as marauders in the neighbourhood of his estates ; hut if
he is compelled to furnish means for the subsistence of those
who arc destitute, it then becomes as well his interest as his
natural occupation, to see that all persons around him are
well provided for, that they are not in want of employment,
and that, his immediate tenants can live in a state of comfort.
—( Hear, hear.) I conceive that those objects, and several
others which are collateral to those, were obtained by this
country by the Acts passed in the reign of Elizabeth. When
we look to the state of the country immediately preceding
and during the greater portion of that reign, we should be in•
dined to think, if we. viewed it as a matter of so remote a
time, hut nearer to our own time and to our own neighbour-
hood, that it must be very difficult to bring the country into
that condition ef peace, order, and civilization which it now
enjoys. We are told with respect to crime in the reign of
Usury VIII., that no less than 70.000 persons were executed
in this country for theft and various crimes. We are a!so told
by a magistrate of the county of Somerset, who wrote in the
reign of Elizabeth, that in that county alone forty persons
were executed in the year for theft and other lawless prac-
tices; and the county was in such a state of insecurity that
the cultivators of the soil found great difficulty in protect-
ing their herds and docks and crops from robbery. Gangs,
comprising no less than sixty persons, sometimes attacked
them, such was the state—not of that county alone—but of
most of the counties in England.—( Hear.) The writer adds
that the forty persons who were executed in one year did not
cone'itute more than a fifth of all those who were guilty of
similar offences, but the remainder escaped prosecution alto-
gether. A number of other instances might be furnished of
the deplorable state of the country at that period. Even in
London such was the extent of manic, that a Commission seas
issued empowering a certain high officer to execute martial
law in the streets, and persons found committing depredations
in the street were taken up under that Commission and hanged
without trial. Now that was a barbarous state of society,
which it was difficult to remodel ; but the means taken were
many combined together. Various changes were made, both
ivith respect to the law and the police, into which I need not
enter on the present occasion ; but there was one in particular
which I think tended to the improvement of the country, to
the establishment of peace, and to the creation of that which I
consider almost the greatest benefit that can he conferred on
any country, namely, a high standard of comfortable subsist-
ence for the labouriug classes.—(Cheers.) That much
was effected by the Act of the 14th, and others, and
chiefly by the great Act of the 43d of Elizabeth. The
principle of that Act was, that the infirm, the cripples, the
orphans, and impotent persons should be relieved by the
public, and that able-bodied persons unable to procure employ-
ment whereby they might obtain their living should be set to
work. The Act in question was founded on principles
adapted to that time, and which I have no doubt were applied
with great effect. That, then, I conceive to be the use of a
Poor-law. I may here mention, that a short time after the

passing of the 14th of Elizabeth, an Act was passed in Scot-
land, enacting a system of relief for the poor, but leaving out
that part of the law which provided that able-bodied persons
should be set to work. The Scotch Act provided compulsory
relief for those who were unable or incompetent to work.
It was a long time before any considerable mischief was
found to arise from the English Poor-law. No doubt, many
abuses arose in particular parts of the country. There were
abuses stated by a writer at the beginning of the last cen-
tury, but it was not till towards the end of the cen-
tury, that some very fatal abuses prevailed. I conceive
it was the object of the Poor-law of Elizabeth to
provide in the first place for the relief of those per-
sons who were infirm and unable to work ; and in the next
place, by compulsory measures, to set able-bodied persons
to work—to set them to hard labour, which was dis-
tasteful to them, and, in fact, to place them in a situation
inferior to that of the able-bodied independent labourer. But
there arose about the end of the last century, from circum-
stances which occasioned a great scarcity of provisions, the
cause of which I need not go into now—there arose a notion
that the principle of the Poor-law was that all persons, whe-
ther industrious or idle, whether deservin,g or undeserving,
were entitled to be maintained by the parish funds. The evil
of this system soon began to be felt. It was impossible such
a notion of the law could be carried into effect without occa-
sioning the greatest evils. For a long time the idle and pro-
fligate found it more to their interest to live on the parish
funds than to obtain their livelihood by the regular course of
employment; they found that they possessed greater advan-
tages living in that way than if they had sought regular em-
ployment, and had relied for the means of subsistence on their
character and industry. lam alluding now to facts that arc
so notorious that I need not no into them. I will refer to one
case which is mentioned in the Report of the Commissioners.
It is the case of Soulbury, where the poor increased to such
an extent that the landlords gave up their land, the farmers
gave up the occupation of their farms, the clergyman gave up
his tithes, and the whole parish was left in the undisputed pos-
session of the paupers. It was after mpny inquiries into these
abuses that the Poor-law Amendment Act was introduced into
Parliament and became law. The principle of that Bill, as I
conceive, is to act fully and fairly on the principle of the 43rd
of Elizabeth ; it is to place the pauper labourer, the pau-
per who cannot find work, and the infirm who applyifor support,
in a situation more irksome than that of the independent, in-
dustrious, and successful labourer. —4 Hear, hear.) Now this
means by which this is accomplished are by offering all such
persons a residence in the workhouse ; by giving them, as the
Poor-law Commissioners state—and I will not enter into the
dispute whether this is the case or not—a sufficiency of food,
warm clothing, and a comfortable warm residence ; but at the
same time placing them under a certain degree of confine-
ment ; so that while they have the necessary clothing, the
means of subsistence, and often a warmer residence in the