The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-06 00:00:00

mind. I hold in my hand a return of the number of
depositors and the amount of deposits, including in-
terest, for the years 1837 and 1838, and by a compari-
son of those two years the increase in the number of
depositors in 1838 is no less than 67,676—(Cheers)
--and the increase in the deposits, 1,793,4391., includ-
ing interest. With such a gratifying fact before the
House Hon. Gentlemen will see that the people
of England are not likely to be led astray.—(Hear.)
Sir, I shall here close my statements on the actual state
of the finances of the country. I have to thank the
House for their patience in having heard me through a
very dry and uninteresting statement.—(Cheers)—but
I preferred endeavouring to make myself intelligible to
introducing extraneous topics. Sir, I now proceed to
apply myself to the Resolution which is before the
House, and which lam about to move. And first, I
will anticipate and endeavour to answer, an objection
which may be urged. It may be said, "Oa your own
showing, with a surplus on the ordinary expenditure as
compared with the whole income of no more than
1,300,0001. and with an absolute necessity of making
good, from the credit of the country, the further sum of
1,000,000/.—are you justified in a proposition that may
affect such a branch of the public revenue as the Post-
office ?" To this I will give an immediate answer. If
my proposition were, to reduce the postage on letters to
one uniform rate of a penny, without making good the
deficiency of the revenue, which might thereby be in-
curred, I should expose myself not only to the
censure of this House, but to the scorn of all men.
That however, is not the proposition I am about
to make, and it is one which I never should have felt
myself justified in presenting to the House. In all com-
munications I have had with gentlemen upon this sub-
ject, I have maintained invariably the same language,
that I did not think it would become me to propose,
still less the House of Commons to sanction, any mea-
sure which might endanger a large branch of the public
revenue, without at the same time proposing some
means to supply the loss.—( Hear, hear.) And in
justice to Hon. Gentlemen I must say that I have not
met with one who proposed that the measure should be
carried without this condition, which is coupled with
the resolution I have now to submit to the Committee,
and without which I should not have been warranted in
proposing this resolution—namely, a distinct vote, to
meet the deficiency which may occur.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir, the mode of proceeding which I suggest, is a reso-
lution of this House, and if this resolution is agreed to,
a Bill will be introduced founded upon it, and
presented to both Houses of Parliament. I think
this a course which will be acceptable to
Honourable Members of all parties.—(Hear, hear.)
Perhaps it may be said " Give us the opportunity of dis-
cussing it, and above all, pray do not exclude from
the consideration of the other branch of the Legislature
a question so important as this."—(Hear, hear.) I
know it has been supposed that the course of the intro-
duction of a Bill on this occasion is solely in accordance
with the opinions of gentlemen who sit behind me ; but
in this particular case I think I really have a right to say
that if gentlemen are not disposed to oppose the propo-
sition I have a right to claim their support of the Bill.
Well, what is the purport of the resolution ? and what
will be the purport of the Bill ? The purport of the re-
solution will be this—" That it is expedient to reduce
the postage charged on letters to one uniform rate of
one penny, to be charged on every letter of a weight to
be hereafter fixed by law—(Hear, hear)—the Parlia-
mentary privilege of franking being abolished—(Great
cheering)—and official franking strictly regulated,
this House pledging itself at the same time to make
good any deficiency of revenue which may be occasioned
by such alteration is the rates of the existing postage."
Now, I propose, if this should be agreed to, to intro-
duce this into the preamble of the Bill; and if the
House does not agree and assent to the pledge of
inakiing good the deficiency I abandon my Bill. Let
Hon. Gentlemen on the other, or on this side of tht.
House, undertake a measure on the subject, if the:
will, they will find me as resolute a defender of this
scheme, without making good the deficiency, as they
will find me the eager friend of the measure, if I have
the means of carrying it into effect, in the only way in
which, in my opinion, it can be honestly done. Before I
go into the details of the plan, allow me to say, if there
was at the present moment a surplus income of three
or four millions, undoubtedly this experiment is one
which, without any pledge, it might behove the
House to adopt, but when the income and ex-
penditure are such as I have explained their
to the Committee, it would be impossible for any
man who reasons justly to say you are to put in jeopardy
a million and a half of the public revenues, without at
thiesame time binding yourselves to provide for the de-
ficiency. I wish you to listen to all by which this pro-
position comes recommended to you. In the course of
the last year a Committee was moved for, to consider
this question of postage. I must say of that Commit-
tee, although there are points on which I differ from
their Report, that the opinion of more intelligent per-
sons of all classes in this country was never elicited, in
my experience of Pariiamentary inquiries. They sat
many days, they examined many persons. I differed
from their Report, and expressed it the more freely, be-
cause the proposition I make is not the proposition
which they make, and, I believe, a proposition which
they would have preferred to their own, if they felt at
liberty to make it.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, they make a
recommendation to this House, not of the adoption of
a penny postage, but of a postage of twopence, under
certain regulations, which they conceived might have
been carried into effect without any loss to the revenue.
Now, Sir, after the best consideration that I have been
able to give to the subject, comparing one proposition
with the other, and above all, to the evidence taken
before them, I find the whole of that evidence and the
whole of that authority conclusively bearing in favour
of the penny postage, in preference to the postage of
twopence—(Hear)—and I am quite sure in respect to
an experiment of this nature, you must try it frankly
and largely in order to come to any satisfactory result—
(Hear, hear)—and I believe most conscientiously that
the public will run less risk upon the proposition of the
penny which I now make, than if I had proposed the
twopenny postage recommended by the Committee.
Well, Sir, this proposition has gone forth to the world.
This is a new proposition, but the Report, the evidence,
and the subject itself have been under the
consideration of another tribunal in the meanwhile—l
mean the tribunal of the public at large.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) Neither on this nor on any other occasion will
Hon. Gentlemen suspect me of undervaluing the au-
thority of petitions ; but,. at the same time, I must say,
that on this subject there has been a good deal of the
manufacturing of petitions. Let any Gentleman look
to the list, and he will see petitions, not from large
masses of men, but from the inhabitants of particular
establishments. I mention this, Sir, not for the purpose
of varying the conclusion to which I have come, but of
putting my conclusion upon some other groundwork than
the mere number of petitions, or the number of signa-
tures affixed to those petitions. But whilst I assert
that many of these petitions are of that kind, undoubt-
edly, when I look to the petitions, they contain a most
extraordinary combination of the representatives of vari-
ous classes, unswayed by any political motive whatever,
of all shades of opinion, the clergy of all persuasions,
men of learning, establishments of education of all sorts
and kinds, establishments for science, &c. Many of the
petitioners may not assent to my resolution, although
they were sincere in the petitions they addressed, because
they ask for that which every man in his senses
would ask for, the reduction of postage. But the
proposition I make is for the reduction of postage to a
low and uniform rate on the condition that another tax
is imposed, and therefore these petitioners are to con-
sider that it is net merely to carry into effect their peti-
tion that I am making this motion, but to carry it into
effect coupled with the condition of adding a tax suffi-
cient to make good the deficiency. This is the way in
which the case presents itself to my mind. But
I must state to the House, and more especially after
the petition presented by my Noble Friend opposite,
from the paper manufacturers in Lancashire, that I
shall be sorry to ask the House on the present occasion
to commit itself to matters of detail. I only ask the
House to commit itself to the question of a uniform
rate of one penny, and a postage to be taken by weight,
I do not ask Members to commit themselves to a ques-
tion of stamped covers, or an absolute pre-payment
under all circumstances. I have my own opinions on
this subject, but 1 say these are matters which it is
impossible to expect the House at present to commit
itself to, or express any opinion upon. I would take, for
example, the case of the petitioners whose petition
was before the House to-night. Suppose it were to go
forth to the public to-morrow morning that the Govern-
ment proposed, and were actually disposed to adopt the
plan of Mr. Rowland Hill. The result at once is, it
would go abroad that we were determined to adopt the
stamped covers in all eases—to make that the rule—
and that we were to use the paper prepared
by one single manufacturer, thereby creating a mono-
poly on his behalf, and excluding the whole remaining,
portion of a most useful branch of trade.—(Hear,
hear). Why, Sir, the alarm, the sense of injustice such
a proposition would occasion, would at once exclude it
and therefore I do not ask the House to affirm it—
neither do I ask them to negative that proposition at all

—I wish the House to affirm the proposition of a penny
stamp, and postage by weight. Again, Sir, it is said
great alarm and injustice would be created, if, under no
circumstances, could an individual write without pre-
payment. Ido not ask the House to adopt such a pro-
position,but it may be right that there should be an option
afforded to the public to post their letters either by
prc-payment, or subject to their being paid for on deli-
very. At all events the suggestion is, there should be
a power of putting letters in the post without a stamp.
On all these subjects all I wish is that the House should
not commit itself. Then it is asked what do you want with
your resolution ; and perhaps Gentlemen from the op-
posite side will suggest what object can there be in
bringing forward popular questions, but to gain popula-
rity, if I could accomplish all the objects I had in view
without a resolution, I would do so ; but I could not.
1\44, in the first instance, supposing the resolution to
be affirmed, it behoves the Government to take the
most early steps to consider the mode of carrying the
plan into operation. This will require very considerable