The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-01 00:00:00

IRISH EDUCATION.

Viscount F,LBOUItNE rose and-said—My Lords, in
rising to submit to your Lordships the motion of which I had
given notice, in urging the propriety of the appointment of a
ComMittee to consider the plan of education which has been
established fur some years in Ireland—in urging an inquiry
into the whole proceedinga of that system of education—into
the whole manner in which the expenditure connected with it
--thee whole mode of education presented by the Com-
mi.tsioners—the manner in u hich they have acted, and the
effects which may be expected to result from it—l
apprehend that it will not be necessary for me to enter into
any very lengthened detail or very extended arguments, as I
consider that on the present occasion it will be better to ab.
stain from all topics calculated to excite political dis-
cussion, and to avoid all matters which .might produce
that warmth of debate which on former occasions characterised
the discussions both here and in the other House on this sub-
ject. —( Hear.)_ My Lords, as I shall go into a full, fair, calm,
and dispassionate inquiry into the operation of' this system of
education, I think it better in doing so to avoid whatever may
be calculated to promote that eagerness of debate, or to in-
flame those passions which are so easily excited.—(llear„
hear.) In respect to the question i:self, your Lordships are
perfectly well acquainted with its merits; your Lordships
are aware that at the commencement of the present Ses-
sion the attention of Parliament was called to the state of
Ireland, and particularly to the expediency, the necessity, anti
the great desirableness of extending ta that country the be•ase-
tits of education, which arc the source of all morality, the
source of all religion, the source of all order—of good order
and peace ; and vour Lordships know that they have produced
such effects in other parts of his Majesty's dominions. Your
Lordships arc also aware that Commissioners bad been ap-
pointed to inquire into this subject, and they recommend what
I am glad to see has been recommended in the petition pre•
sented by the Noble Lord on the subject ; and your Lord.
ships are also aware that Government, irl pursuing the regula-
tions recommended by those Commissioners, whether they
were right or wrong, made a grant to a Society which jour
Lordships know then existed m Ireland—the hildare-pace,
Society. —( Hear, hear.) Of their proceedings, the number of
their schools, and the number of children connected with them,
your Lordships are aware, and also of the discontent whit the
proceedings of that society. Into the causes of this, how-
ever, I shall not enter upon this occasiun—( Hear)—but the
discontent to which I have alluded was created, and existed to
a great extent in the public mind as to the proceedings of the
S e'ety, and the manner in which their schools were conducted
and in consequence the Government, shortly after it came
into power, proposed to Parliament the present system of eda,-
cation which is to-night to be the subject of consideration.
That system was proposed in the month of November, 1831 ;
it was carried by the Parliament, and a Board of Commis-
sionet s were appointed; who proceeded to carry it into 'effect,
under the directions contained in a letter written by my Huh.
Friend ( Lord Stanley), at
,that time Chief Secretary to the
Beard. In the month of March following the Noble
earl opposite brought the matter under the consideration
of this House, by moving a series of resolutions inculpatory
and condemnatory of that system, but these Resolutions were
not acceded to by the House. It was afterwards made the
subject of repeated discussions, hut no direct motion was made
on the subject until within the last Session, when the Right
Rev. Prelate, who has ju now presented these petitions to
the House, made a motion for 'a Select Committee to en-
.

quire into the subject, at the same time stating that it was not
his intention to overthrow or destroy that system, and if such
a motion were entertained by his Majesty's Government, ho
should not persevere in it, and that motion w:-.s subsequently
withdrawn. My Lords, I think, considering the time this system
has been in progress,
,now inure than six years—considering
the progress it has made_l think it is prudet and wise in your
Lordships to institute an inquiry into the m linter in which it
has been carried on, and the mode is which it has operated.
-( Hear' hear.) There are several reasons for this, and
although I do net wish to countenance the attacks made
upon the Commissioners or the system—although I do not
mean to give any countenance to talem:-.-yet the diff.!renee
opinion that still continues to prevail, and the various complaints
that have been made, and the quarters from vrhence they come,
call upon your Lordships to give it your serious consideration.
My Lords, I thought it right in the course of the last Session
of Parliament—on the occasion when the Right Rev.. Prelate
stated his intention to renew his motion—l then ventured to
hope that when the Right Rev. Prelate brought it forward, that
he would state distinctly, and give us some notice before hand,
in order that we might be prepared to answer the specific
cases brought forward, and to know what these cases were.
because, considering what their nature was, it was perfectly
impossible for us to be prepared for them at the moment.
The Noble Duke opposite objected to the course I took on that
occasion. Ho said it was not Parliamentary, but it was a breach
of tie privileges of Members of Parliament to ask a Noble Lord
to state the grounds beforehand on which he meant to found
a motion. Parliamentarily speaking; the Noble Duke was
unquestionably right in that respect; therefore, considering
the nature of what the charges were which were brought
against this system—considering their minute character, and
the local character of the part of the Country to which
they referred—in my opinion it is far better that the
investigation of them should be referred to a Select Commit-
tee, than that they should be discussed in this House, which.
would only lead to an expression of opposite opinions, and to
the bringing forward of conflicting authorities. This Board
of Commissioners have made three Reports, which are before
your Lordships, in which they have stated the progress
they have made, the number of schools they have insti-
tuted, the number of schools they have given assistance to,
the course they mean to pursue in future ; and, above all,
the extension which they think it is expedient your Lordships
ought to gi':e to this system. My Lords, I do -not mean to
uledge myself to the accuracy of the second report; but,
seeing that this system is working well for the country, I
think that is another reason, and a strong reason, if any
additional reason were wanted, to show it that 'the system.
should be gone on with.—( Hear, hear, hear.) These are.
the grounds, my Lords, on which I found the motion I. have
the honour of submitting to your Lordships:
over, if it were necessary, there is yet one ground stronger

than them all, and which I am sure I need not mention—it is
the grand and paramount importance of the su'uject—( Hear,
hear)—the great and paramount importance of it to that
. part of the country whose there exist so many and so great
difficulties to its progress—the great objects to be obtained
to that part of the country in the first place, by communicating
the blessings of education to the inhabitants of thet part of
the country ; and if education is to be communicated to them,
surely it is the duty of your Lordships to take care that that
education should be of a pure and wholesome character. My
Lords, I beg to move that a Select Cosnruttee be appointed
to inquire into the progress of the new plan of Education in
o' md, and to report thereon to the House.
The Bishop of EXETER then rose. He would not tres-
pass at any length on the time of their Lordships if the pre-
sent wa.s an ordinary case. Their Lordships he was sure
etould be ass are from the motion of the Noble Viscount that
he had moved fur the appointment of a similar Com-
mittee to that which he ( the Bishop of Exeter) had moved
for hot year, and on that ground it must be supposed that there
was no longee any occasion for further discussion, but that the
House should go immediately into the Committee, where all
inquiries into the merit.; of the case might be gone lute. It would
doubtless be in the recollection of their Lordships that the case
now was not so simple as it was last year, in consequence of
what had occurred since. lie had been most seriously attacked,
and as an injured man he threw himself upon the indul-
g-
lace of the House, while he defended himself against the
. charges' that had been brought against hint. A Noble Lord,
it would be in the recollect eft of the House, had also attacked
him ; besides this, upon his giv:eft notice of his intention
to bring the subject before the flcese upon motion, a
Noble Lord had the boldness to state that he (the
Bishop of Exeter) would not come forward anu :tend by
the intention of which he had given notice. The case, how%
CC er, did not remain there, for the same Noble Lord had
said that he had never known a case which had met with so
complete an answer as that which he had brought forward
against the Commissioners. He wished to let that Learned
Lord see that he intended to keep his word. The first charge
brought against him by the Commissioners was of a very se-
rious nature, after quoting from hint as follows :—" But these
t 'achers are not merely to benefit the people of Ireland, though
the schools committed to their charge are identified in interest
with the State, and therefore anxious to promote a spirit of
obe ?fence to lawful authority. We are confident (says the
report) that they would prove a body of the utmost value and
importance in promoting civilization and peace." The ori-
ginal sentence it will be observed, contains the words " trained
to good habits," whereas, as quoted in the pamphlet, these
w zds are left out, and the reader Las the impression conveyed
t him that we depend for the conduct of the teachers not on a
virtuous training, but on interest only. Ile had been charged
with wilfully omitting the words " trained to good and virtuous
habits" with a view -to misrepresent. He admitted that he
had omitted the words, as they appeared- to him superfluous,
and did not affect the point that he was alluding to, namely, the
• steps taket to•ensure the character of the teachers. He never
intended to lessen the importance of young persons being
trained in virtuous habits; but the course pursued by the
Commissioners prevented the possibility of their having a vir-
tuous training. It appeared that there were to be 5,000 mas-
ters, and all of them were to be trained at Dublin for the
space of three years. Here, then, were several thousand
young persons, during the most perilous period of their lives,
to be taken from their homes, and to be carried away from the
parental eye, and brought to a large metropolis, where they
would be left without any one to watch over their proceedings
or to check their conduct. Here, then, were thousands of
young men, of the humblest origin, to be exposed to all the
evils of a great metropolis, which was one of the most frightful
schools that it ever entered the heart of man to send them to
for a virtuous training. It is required that they should live
three years at Dublin, and it appeared that no college or other
building was to be built to receive them, in which, by proper
discip'ine, they might be brought up in a course of virtuous
training. Under the present arrangement there was not
the slightest chance of such a result. During the tirst year
500 of these young men were to reside at Dublin. After
three years 500 of them were to be appointed to the primary
schools ; each of these young persons, therefore, must be
two years in Dublin. In the first year, then, there were to be
.500, at the end of two years the number was to be increased
to 1,500, and at the end of three years to 2,000, and the-
number was for some years to go on increasing until the pro-
posed number was trained. They were told that these young
men were to be educated by professors of moral philosophy,
political economy, logic, and, indeed, were to go through a
whole course of philosophical education. Again, all the re-
ligious instruction winch these young men were to receive
was to be voluntary ; and was it to be supposed that this
large number of young men, from all parts of Ire-
land, would go to the clergyman of the parish in
which they resided to obtain religious instruction ?
There was also nothing compulsory on the clergy to
devote their time to the instruction of these persons ;
and even if they were willing to undertake the task, it would
be physically impossible for them to execute the duty. For
some years a model school had been held in the parish
of St. Thomas, in Dublin, in which a great number of young
men were trained for schoolmasters. In this parish, which
is a very extensive one, there were a rector and two
curates, and it so happened that the whole clergy of the
parish were opposed to the system. One of these curates,
however, stated that he was willing to incur the risk of
being supposed favourable to the system, by attending the
school at certain periods, for the purpose of giving religious
instruction. The only time the curate could spare was one
hour, or rather three quarters of an hour a day. This was
not surprising when the House recollected that this parish
contained upward; of 20,000, and therefore the duties on the
clergy were necessarily heavy. The number of children that
attended this model-school was very great ; lie believed up-
wards of 400. The average number that attended the reli-
gious instructions of the Rev. Gentleman to whom he had re-
ferred was only fifteen. But how many of these were being
trained for schoolmasters? The Rev. Gentleman had writ-
ten to him, and informed him that on two occasions three or
four of the teachers went into the school, not to be catechised,
or to receive religious instruction, but to hear the lectures
given to the children. How, he would ask, was it possible to
give, under such a system, religious instructions to those
thousands of schoolmasters? Such, then, was the religious
instruction to be given to all these schoolmasters, who were
to carry moral instruction into every part of Ireland. He
had omitted to say that the Commissioners directed that
persons should be appointed schoolmasters in consequence
of their peculiar fitness for teaching ; " but that their
moral character and literary qualifications would he re-
garded ; " the latter words were put in italics. He felt
it his duty to go into these details in order to justify him-
se!f from the charges brought against him. He had been
accused of getting up trumpery cases, and that the authority
on which he rested was void of foundation. He should note
proceed to point out some. of the places at which circum-
stances to which he had adverted on a former occasion actually
occurred. The first case to which he would allude occurred
in the parish of
county of Londonderry, in the diocese of Armagh. His au-
thority was a most respectable clergyman, the brother to a
Noble Lord. This gentleman stated that when the census
was to take place in 1831, under the Population Act, he
was extremely anxious to ascertain the number of persons of
different religions in his parish. In consequence of this he
was brought in contact with the master of the national school
in the parish, who, he found, was avowedly au infidel. He
now came to a case which he could not mention or allude to
without disgust. He held in his hand some papers relative
to the conduct of a schoolmaster in another parish in
Londonderry, the name of the clergyman of which was
the Rev. Mr. Townsend. This gentleman went into the
national school-room, and on going up to the desk of the
schoolmaster he found thet it had no lock. On looking into
it, he found that there were some papers, althoutch not
many, of such an indecent and disgusting character that he
would not presume to describe them. It had been asserted by
the master that he saw these papers in the hands of some of
his boys, and he took them away and flogged the boys ; but
still they were left in an open desk in the school-room. He
had also received that day some copybooks, which were written
by the boys. They were regularly written from the top to
the bottom of the page, and if the most reverend prelate be-
fore him was anxious to satisfy himself, he would put these
books on the table. Many of these copies are of a highly im-
proper and indecent tendency, and they appeared to have been
written in this school as a matter of course. He now came to
the case of a school near Dublin. This school had been
built by the board of schools. Now this was not at such a
distance from the board that they could not have something
like a good superintendence over it. This school had been
established for two months, but still the master had made him-
self most notorious by his conduat. Ile had received a letter
from a gentleman who lived in its vicinity, who informed
him that dancing was the only art or science taught in this
school, and this was practised for some hours each day, and
it was attended by all the blackguards in the neighbourhood.
He now came to another case of great importance: he alluded
to the conduct of the master of the National School at Carlow.
This place, he believed, was within a comparatively short dis-
tance of Dublin. It was a most notorious place, and What-
ever occurred there was sure to find its way into the news-
papers. The schoolmaster of this place was one of the most
remarkable agitators in the country, and was the agent and
friend of the well-known priest Father Maher. At the recent
election in Carlow he acted as poll-clerk, but was turned out
for his partiality' ; but he abandoned the duties of his school to
attend to the election. This schoolmaster, in the autumn of
1335, was proved to have joined with the priest Maher in one
of the most foul conspiracies ever concocted. It related to cer-
tain charges that had been brought against some soldiers who
were accused of drinking party toasts. In consequence of this,
a military investigation into the matter was ordered, but priest
Maher did not approve of this mode of proceeding. Upon
this, the Lord-Lieutenant, in the exercise of his discretion,
el o e to direct an investigation of another kind, and Colonel
Ward and Mr. Mahony were ordered to inquire into the par-
ticulars of the case. The inquiry continued for thirteen days,
and it appeared that dut tug the whole of this time the school-
tster loft his school, and attended to drilling the witnesses
and teaching them what they were to swear. He (the
Bishop of Exeter) was using strong language, but he was
only using language which he should be able to prove. Every
one of the witnesses examined admitted that he had been asked
to attend by Priest Maher and Gorman the schoolmaster.
He would new proceed to some of the attacks made on him.
He had been accused in the pamphlet published by the Com-
missioners with having accused them of giving utterance to
positive falsehoods. lie did not charge them with positive
falsehood. Ile contradicted the fact " that 140 of the
Protestant clergy had applied for schools under this system."
lie called for a return of the 140 persons who were said to be
clergymen of the Establishment for this fact, and referred to
this to prove his correctness. These persons, however, said
that " the author had in the first place misrepresented the re-
port, and then thought proper to charge them with falsehood ;

and that the report did not state, nor did it pretend to state,
the number of clergymen so applying." Now, from the
assertions used in different parts of
the report, in one place it
might be fairly inferred that the 140 persons alluded to were
all clergy of the Established Church. The extract he alluded
to, and which he quoted, was in a part signed by the Secre-
tary of the Board, but in another part of the report there was
an abstract which stated that several Protestants, both lay and
clergy, had applied for schools, and this part was underlined,
and the numbers given were 123 and 17, making together 140.
It might be well to suppose that this was merely a clerical error
that had crept into the report, and not front other motives. In
the third report there was made almost a similar statement,
and there was an abstract of the numbers, and they took
care to correct the part of the former report, for it merely
stated the number of signatures of persons so applying,. This
also might have the effect of deceiving, but not him, because
he had taken the pains to inquire into the subject. In reply
to an observation from the Noble Earl, he recommended him
to look at the report, where he would find that in one province,
namely, Ulster, there had been 26(1 applications made by Pro-
testant clergymen. Ile had moved for a return which would
have rendered the matter tolerably clear, but the production of
it had been continually delayed. The report gave the names
of 116 clergymen of the Established Church who had signed a
declaration in favour of this system, but it appeared that some
of the names put down were gross forgeries. It was stated
that to the application for a school in Dublin the name of a
Rev. J. G. Robertson was subscribed. He (the Bishop of
Exeter) had made some inquiry respecting this gentleman
of a friend very high in the Church in Dublin ; and the
answer was, that he could not find any such person. He
(the Bishop of Exeter) ventured to state this in the
speech he made last year. Upon this point the Board said,
" The author states that Mr. Robertson, who signed one of
the Dublin applications, was not resident within the parish
from wh;;.,', it came ; neither did we state that he was."
But he tee
(the Biste or Exeter) did more; he stated that no
such clergyman could be n,und to have existed in Dublin at
all. The Board did not find it Convenient to deal with that
part of the charge. But the Commissioners told their Lord-
ships this :—" Mr. Robertson, we understand, died about two
years ago in Queen-street." Now he (the Bishop of Exeter)
had made further inquiry ; and the result was, that Mr. Ro-
bertson's existence was totally unknown. A clergyman had
gone and searched the register of every parish in Dublin ;
but nowhere could this reverend gentleman be found, There
was a remarkable circumstance stated in a note of the report in
contradiction to a statement of his. He had averred that a.
much larger proportion of the fund had gone to the Roman Ca-
tholic than to the Protestant schools. That was answered by
its being-stated that whenever effective applications were made
for grants to Protestant schools, those grants were larger than
to Catholic applications. He was quite ready to believe this.
He believed the Board would be more eager, if possible, to
encourage Protestant education, especially if Protestant
applications were made. In consequence a return had been
made, showing that the average granted to Protestants had
been greater than the sums granted to the Roman Catholics
where applications had been made. But, unfortunately, who-
ever concocted this report did that which very crafty mon were
sometimes apt to do, for he proved too much ; for he proved
that whatever might be the proportion of the grants, yet the
numbers of resident Protestant applications and of resident
clergymen who corresponded with theßoard were very few in-
deed. He had looked into the list of those persons who had
corresponded with the Board ; and he had taken the trouble
of looking also at those records which told of the conduct of
the parish priesthood, and especially at the records contained
in the reports of the committees of the other House of Parlia-
ment on bribery and intimidation ; and it appeared, almost
without exception, that every individual who was there exhi-
bited was a person who, under the garb of a clergyman, was
seeking to break the peace of society, to carry discord into
families, and even large his unhappy thralls; to murder their
fellow-creatures.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") These were
correspondents with the Board of Education. He would
trouble their Lordships with one instance of the conduct of
one of these priests. He alluded to Father Tyrell, of the
county of Carlow. He was a correspondent from the school
of Timriddon (as we understood it). Father Tyrell attended
Mr. O'Connell on that celebrated occasion when Mr. O'Con-
nell made a speech that would not easily be forgotten by any
who heard it, or who heard of it. What he was going to read
was a speech by Mr. O'Connell when this Father Tyrell was
by his side as his great eider and supporter. Father Tyrell,
therefore, was morally responsible for all which Mr. O'Con-
nell said on that occasion. The words of Mr. O'Connell
were :—" Boys, the names I call your enemies do you call
every friend of theirs you meet in the streets. Girls and
women, when you meet the Bruenites spit on them, spit in
their faces, particularly if they are Catholic Conservatives.
Write traitor on their doors with chalk, and tell your friends at
home to do the same. You who are wives of the Catholic elec-
tors, if your husbands do not vote for their religion, bless your-
selves, and then swear on your prayer-books to separate from your
husbands if they don't obey your commands ; you who are their
daughters, I tell you if your fathers vote against you spit in their
faces ! and call them the names I taught the boys to call them."
But it did not rest there. He would read to their Lordships
a speech which the priest Tyrell himself made on a more re-
cent occasion. The speech was made during the contest at
the late election for the county of Carlow. After much
prefatory matter, Father Tyrell proceeded at great length
to show that the Catholic priests did not want ascendancy.
" No, they want- justice and equity, and they shall have
both !" in other words, the Established Church in Ireland
must fall. Father Tyrell then proceeded to say :—" You
persist in your votes. Your landlords hove no more right
to them than they would have to your wives and daughters.
The landlords used to do so formerly, when you Catholics
were in gaol, and I tell you they used to do so by laws of
their own creation. Will you send to Parliament men who
fasten these chains and renew the penal !awe ? Tell your
landlords that before you are exterminated you will make
them feel your power. Let those who would re-enact
the penal laws be hurled from the place of power; and
don't forget we are eight millions."—So much for the
schools in Ireland being under the auspices of the priests.
—( Hear, hear.) A clergyman of the utmost respecta-
bility had written to him an account of what he had seen
at a school at Carrick-on- Suir. The school was altogether
Popish, under the entire dominion of the nuns. The nuns re-
ceived an annual salary, which went of course to the support
of the convent. This was not one of a few instances, but one
of many, where the sums supplied by the Board, taken from
the people of this laud, went directly to support the monaste-
ries and nunneries in Ireland. There was an exhibition at the
school twice a year, where the children heard mass ; and if
they were pronounced fit they were immediately admitted to
the eucharist. The Right Reverend Prelate then adverted to
the statement made by him last year with respect to the cele-
bration of the mass at a school in which was erected an altar.
Ile was informed that mass was performed there every day—
but probably his informant was mistaken ; but still the Roman
Catholic service was performed there every day, and the altar
remained there with the permission of the Board. The Board
had been pleased, in their strictures upon him, to speak of his
having. nu acquaintance with the rector of this parish, but
making application to the curate. Now whether he should
have recourse to time rector or to the curate greatly depended
upon whether the rector deserved confidence. He would say
nothing of the character of the rector of this parish ; but
of the curate he could say, that he was a man of the
highest respectability, and most vigilant in the discharge of
his duty. The rector, he believed, was a person of that cha-
racter that it was impossible to find any one so wolully un-
mindful of his pastoral charge.----( Oh, oh, and latbuditer.)
The Right Rev. Prelate then adverted to the statement he
had formerly made respecting the language used by Dr.
M. Hale at the Island of Ackill. A Roman Cetliclic Priest
having iu the course of a sermon, preached before Dr.
M' Hale, among other violent things, said that " the Pro-
testant religion begun in hell and would end in hell," Dr.
NP Hale rose up and expressed his strong approbation of all
that had been said by that Minister of God from the pulpit.
The Right Rev. Prelate next referred to the case of the Rev.
Mr. Nangles, upon whom the Board had by construction cast
some discredit. From the manner in which they spoke of
that gentleman, it could not help being inferred that his con-
duct was at least called in question. N% hat was the fact ?
%%Thy, that Mr. Nangles had to complain of so grievous an
outrage on time part of the schoolmaster on that island that he
went into a Court of Justice to obtain redress

A report of that case was sent to the Board ; and
the ordinary notion would be, from the manner in which
he was spoken of by the Board, that Mr. Nangles had been
mentioned to them with disadvantage in the report
of those proceedings. The report of the Board went on to
say, " He is, as your Excellency is aware, neither rector nor
curate of the parish, nor, as we understand, at all connected
with the district, 'save by a mission which he has undertaken
for the conversion of the Roman Catholics there." Now,

that seemed to him to savour much of a sneer at the occupa:
tion which that gentleman was pursuing in that island. Ile
was confident that the most Reverend Prelate near him did not

draw up the report. This gentleman having heard that Jame;
O'Donnell, who was connected with the national school in that

island, had been dismissed from the coast-guard service for
having used seditious language, communicated this fact to the
Board ; but they made no inquiry into the circumstance,
although Mr. Nangles told them where they might obtain evi-
dence of the truth of what he said. No ; but the Board, with
the greatest anxiety to protect innocence, directed O'Donnell
to institute a prosecution against the publishers of this com-
municasion. After the Commissioners sent forth their re-
port containing this advice, Mr. Nangles sent forth a let-
ter on the subject, and in August that gentleman re-
ceived a letter from Lieutenant Irvin, an officer of high
character in the coast-guard service, in which he stated
that he recollected that in 183:3 he had dismissed a per-
son of the name of O'Donnell from the coast-guard for
using seditious language. Their Lordships would therefore
perceive that the statement made by him (the Bishop of
Exeter) in their Lordship's I-louse was all most true, and was
at all events entirely justified by the facts within the know-
ledge of the Board. The Right Rev. Prelate next complained
of the use of a book called the " Catholic Christian Instructor"
in a school situated on one of the Irish estates of the Noble
Marquis ( Lansdowne) near him. It was true the Commis-
sioners denied that that book had been recommended by them;
but on looking at the report published by the Commissioners,
he found, from their own declaration, that though not " recom-
mended" by them, it had been read with their " sanction and
approbation." Now to him it appeared that the words
" sanction and approbation" went further than the word " re-
commendation." The next point to which he wished to call
their Lordships' attention was the mutilation of the gospel of
St. Luke. The Commissioners had led their Lordships to
believe that the whole of the gospel of St. Luke was used in
the National Schools of Ireland ; and when the fact was
pointed out that certain passages of it were entirely omitted,
they replied that no harm had been done, as the sense of the
whole was given. That might be true ; but why did they
state in the first place that the whole of the gospel of St.

Luke was given ? Did they not know that one of the
great complaints against the Board from the very first had
been. that the selected extracts did not give the pure word of
God ? He had already stated that the Commissioners, on a
former occasion, declared that the whole gospel was given ;
but on investigation it was found that the fact was otherwise.
What he complained of was, that under the existing system
there could be no extracts used from the real Scripture, be-
cause Dr. Murray, one of the Commissioners, had sworn be-
fore one of the Comteittees upon the subject of national edu-
cation in Ireland, in 1824 or 182 G, that he would not con-
sent to any exhibition of die word of God in any school
where Roman Catholics attended, unless' the exhibition so
made were founded upon the Douay version of the Serie-
tures. He (the Bishop of Exeter) felt the full force of the
responsibility he incurred, when lie made that statement. If
Dr. Murray did not swee.r what he (the Bishop of Exeter)
said he did, lie had greatly injured him. If he (the Bishop
of Exeter) had entertained a doubt upon the subject, he had
been guilty of a calumny. If he (the Bishop of Exeter)
had nn doubt upon the subject, acid yet Dr. Nitirray did riot
sr.ear in the manner he had described him as dointi, he had
b. en guilty of the most culpable rashness. But upon the
fullest, the most deliberate, the closest inspection of the Re-
port of the Board of Commissionere, he (the Bishop of Exeter)
again re-affirmed the charge. He declared that Dr. Murray,
on the occasion to which he referred, did swear what the Corns.
missioners say be did not swear, He took leave to direct their
Lordships' attention for a moment to certain proceedings_ of
recent occurrence in Ireland. In December last, the Com-
mittee of the Female National School at Drogheda thought
fit to give a public dinner to two very great persons—Mr.
O'Connell and a personage whom they called the Primate of
Ireland. In quoting again the words of Mr. O'Connell, he
begged to repeat that he did not quote them in reference to
that individual himself, but merely as illustrating the subject
with which lie was dealing.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Air.
O'Connell, in returning thanks for a compliment paid to
him after dinner, said, " I want to bring back the prosperity
which will make Poor Laws unnecessary, and, if by no other
means, by a domestic Legislature.—( Cheers.) But I am mak-
ing an experiment to obtain justice from England without that
alternative; and till it is fully worked out I cannot think of
falling back upon my favourite measure of relief. Let this
experiment be one of five years' duration as well as the other.
Two are already passed ; and when the others have terminated,
if we see that England does not give us justice, we must take
it for ourselves.—( Loud cheers.) I make the experiment fairly
and honestly, and without any shade of chicanery. I will take
the fullest means, and use my best efforts, to make it success-
ful ; and if we get justice it is all we seek ; but if we fail in
the experiment, then shall we demand the power of legislating
for ourselves.—( Cheers.) I call upon the people to support
the King's Ministers, who have promised us justice. We
should be untiring in our efforts to enable them to fulfil that
promise, or the fault of the failure will be ours.—( Hear, hear.)
Lay aside your wishes for repeal, but do not lay aside your
efforts for justice." Their Lordships, he (the Bishop of
Exeter) thought, need not to by reminded of what " justice "
meant in the vocabulary of this individual. He continued—
" Let the good men of England see that, while you have
assisted them, and all who sought justice, to obtain it, you
will not consent to be deprived of it yourselves. Why do I,
whose life has been spent as a disciple of peace, preach-
ing that no alteration in government can be good if brought
about by force, and that one drop of human blood would be
too dear a purchase for any victory—talk of physical power ?
Irishmen, because we have beets insulted.—( Hear, hear, and
loud cheers.) I would rather see your river again red with
Irish blood than that we should be degraded and insulted.—
( Hear.) We might submit to the destruction of our property,
and the danger of our lives ; to the ferocity of the ruffian
soldier, and the heartless camp-follower. In all these, and a
thousand other shapes, injury was heaped upon us, and we bore
it, and perhaps would again ; but we will never consent to
submit to insult.—(Cheers.) In this industrious and intelli-
gent town it will be seen what is the opinion of the contumely
thrown on our country. Ireland will rejoice in your senti-
ments, and the Press will tell the whole British empire that
it is not safe for England to be a patty to the insult.__
(Tremendous cheers.) Chains of adamant, and the force
of the Russian empire, would not be sufficient to bind us
under insult. It must, then, be wiped off; or else —___,e
Here the Learned Individual appeared to have parsed, as if
the sequitur were too dreadful for utterance. He repeated
that he had not quoted these words on account of the indi-
vidual by whom they were uttered, but on account of what
followed. The chairman, at this dinner at Drogheda, stated
that he had next to propose the health of the Primate of Ire-
land, the Most Reverend Dr. Crolly, the friend of civil and re-
ligious liberty. Dr. Crolly, in returning thanks, said :_
" Liberty, civil and religious, is the birthright of all bearing
the image of the Creator, as well the black as the white; and'
no man should assume the right of the Deity to force the
opinions of his fellow men, and men who venture to do so have
reason to fear that they will suffer for it here or hereafter.
I feel complimented by the kindness and attention with which
you have listened to me, particularly in the presence of the in-
dividual who has done more for the cause I speak of than
any other person in ancient and modern times." Such
was the language used by Dr. Crony at Drogheda, and
having quoted it, he would leave their Lordships to form their
own opinions, and to draw their own conclusions from it.
But before he sat down, he would just quote a few more lines
from one of the speeches made at a dinner lately given at
Carlow to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and at which
Mr. O'Connell was reported to have said :—" My friend
the Chairman, in alluding to the Conservative festival in this
town or, yesterday, talked of respectability. Respectability !
What does my valued friend mean by respectability ? They
may have the respectability of the bogget or the ox that fatten
on the land—they are as stupid as they are malignant, and as
ugly as they are contemptible. Like the ghouls of the Eastern
tale, they live and delight to live upon sucking out the warm
heart's blood while life is still in vigour, and reducing their
victims to the grave before the chill of years or the course of
natural events carry them away. They love the wail of fa-
mishing children and the agony of ruined and agonized pa-
rents." " Poor old Kavanah," Mr. O'Connell continued,
" Alas ! poor Kavanah. If he had not made the fatal al-
liances he did, one would be glad that he would sink into his
grave in the peaceful obscurity in which, for his own sake, lie
ought to have remained, and not to have the dead cats and dogs
of the neighbourhood thrown into it along with him." It
appeared to him that one of the most important inquiries which
could be made was whether this system afforded increased
means on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy of domineer-
ing over their flocks. He was sure their Lordships would see
the impossibility of making any modification of this system.
though at the same time he was open to conviction.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN rose not for the purpose of
prematurely entering into a discussion which ought to be re-
served for the Committee. He would say nothing of the
Board of Education, or of the body of Commissioners ; but
with respect to the charges made against himself, although lie
thought their Lordships were called upon to give him a hear-
ing in his own vindication, yet he felt he should better con-
sult propriety in not detaining their Lordships with matters
eelating to individuals. As that was a legislative and a ju-
dicial assembly, the rules established in the schools of education
would be examined day after day before a Committee ; and he
trusted that on all points time would bring the truth to light.
If all men's minds were so constituted as not to receive
truth, he was sorry for it, and they were not the persons
whose esteem he had any wish or anxiety to cultivate.
Various measures had been suggested for the extension and
improvement of the system of education, and of course this
would require that the reasons for and against its adop-
tion should be well anti maturely considered ; and this
could be done in the Committee alone. Supposing the sys-
tem in the main were to be continued, it would be for the
Committee to consider what modifications they would adopt
to put it on au extensive footing, and bringing it into greater
operation. The Committee was wished for by the Corn.
missioners with a view to save their Lordships' House from
being involved in fruitless and unsatisfactory debates, and
the public mind from being poisoned by vague, irregular
complaints- which were brought forward, and which could
not be stopped until a satisfactory inquiry was made. From
time to Aim° various complaints were brought forward, and
if the Commissioners were present on these occasions
would be well ; but they were not always present, and

_ .
was quite impossible that those who were connected with the
system could carry all the particulars in their memories,

seeing that there were 1,500 schools. If anything were com-
plained of in these schools in this country or in Ireland, the
Board immediately instituted an inquiry into those corn-
p:aints. But these things were generally brought forward
without first consulting the Commissioners as to the alleged
misconduct of their servants. One complaint had been that
some little schoolboy had scribbled this or that in his copy-
book.----( A laugh.) Oh I nothing was too small or too great
to he debated with the most eloquent declamation night after
night. Li many of these cases flying rumours came round
to the Beard that some one had heard such and such a
matter had taken place ; and in all these instances he knew
there was very great exaggeration, distortion, or even fabrica-
tion of facts ; but still he supposed there were many persons
who, being ignorant in many cases of the circumstances, did
believe what they stated. But there were many who came
down to the Court, and by their conduct raised some suspicion,
if not of their veracity, certainly of the purity of their zeal, _
( Hear.) Their Lordships would never credit them when he
said that they were too nugatory to be brought before the
Commissioners, but not so before the House of Lords. These
facts oftentimes reminded him of the circumstance which ho
had read of in a favourite old comedy, where a newly-elected
Member of Parliament, returning from some distant part (Sir
Francis Wroughead), elated with his success, was run against
by a rude carter, and his carriage was damaged. In great
indignation the son suggested to his father, " Oh, father,
bring him before the Parliament-howe." Now, it seemed
more honest to bring these matters before the Legislature
than before the Court. If they sent to Ireland, an inquiry was
made by the inspector, when the statement was found to be
generally partly fabricated, and there was some distortion of
facts in all these cases. Ile knew that when a week or ten days
had expired, and when the attention of the House and the
public had been directed to something else, and after errone-

-
ous statements had gone forth, no regret was ever expressed;
not one word of apology was given ; never anything like re-
pentance was evinced by those who had originated the, calum-
nies; no repentance was shown by those who accused the
Commissioners of having struck out all about repentance from
the gospel of St. Luke. No; but it appeared as if the sup-
porters of St. Luke had struck out repentance from their own
hearts, and thus the time of the House and of the public was
taken up, and prejudices were raised, which a calm consideii_
tion of facts before the Committee must verify, and thus put
an end to such irregular proceedings at once.—(Hear.)
In respect to this subject, there was two classes of ques-
tions which were very distinct, which ought to be kept
apart, but which were perpetually confounded with each
other; he meant the question relating to the system as ori.
ginally laid down, and the question relating to the conduct

of the Commissioners. He would appeal to their Lordships
whether they were not mixed up together continually, not
to say anything of speeches made at Conservative, Radical,
and Repeal meetings. At one time they had a debate in re-
ference to the various versions of the Scriptures, to the diffe-
rent force of their Hebrew particles, and various manuscripts
of the Old and New Testament.—Those considerations were
mixed up with the general reading of the copybooks of the
schoolmaster. Then there were the questions raised whether
the reading in these schools should be compulsory or volun-
tary ; whether people should be permitted or forced to read ;
whether the school-houses were erected on the best sites, or
whether they were not often too near the chapel yard. Then
they were appealed to in respect of the Dimay version of the
Bible. Again, it bad been made a matter of complaint to
the Hoard that sense schoolmaster had done something some
years before his appointment. Thus, they had to contend
with this mixture of questions ; and he would say, let them
all be thoroughly examined into. The Curnmittee to whom
these matters would be referred would be very different
frqsn Oily ethos that ever was if it did not classify the
various heads of the subject, and leave the House to de-
liberate dispassionately upon it. Now, as to the system of
education in Ireland, the Commissioners wore not responsible
for it, crept so far thet they conseiontiously acted upon it.
If the Vommiseioners, however, and those who were the par-
ties to wort; the plan, had conducted themselves unwisely, let
them be examined before the Committee, and if the system
were hopless, let it be abandoned; if it were necessary to make
an alteration, let the roma of education be increased. If
the comesissioisers had been false to their duty, if they had
harboured improper servants for the public service, let the
system be tried under the direction of other parties. But let
not this mixture of the questions be resorted to, seeing that
they were much more easily discussed in an animated de.
bate, than they would be in a calm discussion before the Com-
mittee. Ile would give one or two specimens of the sort
of questions which he supposed, in nine out of ten cases of
charge, would be made. He was not speaking of this in
reference to individuals, but with respect to the conduct of
the Commissioners, and the merits or demerits of the system.
Supposing a witness examined with reference to the model
school at Dublin, he would ask—ls it attended by Roman
Catholics and Protestants ? and, if so, iu what proportion ?
lie would answer, so and so. He would then be asked—Can
you account for the proportions being such as they are ; or do
you apprehend that they are different in other cases ? The
answer would be, Certainly. Because in the Model School of
Dublin almost every parish had its school; the Protestant
children were fed and partly clothed. The schools were
under the guidance of Protestant clergymen. Then the
witness would be asked, Do they receive instruction from their
respective ministers on the same day ? Now how came it
that they received so little instruction ? Why most of them
went to their own parish. Some come many miles to attend
the Model School every day, and when the instruction was
not going on there they went to the respectibe schools of
their parish, some of which were Presbyterians. Thus their
Lordships would see how very different a turn the case took
under the investigation of a Committee to that which it as-
sumed in a debate in that House, conducted perhaps with
all the skill, the eloquence, and powers of a practised debater.
A Mr. Perrin, in company with Mr. Price, visited
the school where it was said a treasonable sentence was set
as a copy by the master of the school. Mr. Perrin, it hap-
pened, had a living in his diocese, and he turned the character
of the transaction entirely; and the report which had been
spread, according to this gentleman's account, was totally
false. He had told him (the Archbishop of Dublin) moreo-
ver, that see the false statement had appeared in the Standard
newspaper, he thought it proper to put the matter right, and
he accordingly assured the parties that they were mistaken.
The notice taken of this communication was to the following
effect :—" We have received a letter stating some inaccura-
cies, Re. We have not time to insert this letter, but we shall
do so some time hence." This had occurred half a year ago ;
but the parties were still waiting for a convenient opportunity
to bring this letter forward. lie had told their Lordships that
in some instances he knew these statements were believed by
persons whom they could not conceive would put them forward.
A complaint had been very properly brought before him by the
court of a person in the neighbourhood of a small town in Ire-
land, who declared that the Protestant children could not in con-
science attend the school, because there was no way to it but by
going in at the gate of the Roman Catholic chapel-yard.
Now he had said that in some instances the schools had been
erected on objectionable sites, but they were prevented in a va-
riety of cases from selecting better sites. He therefore said
he would see in this instance how far the site was really ob-
jectionable, and that he would go and see the place himself.
With this view he accompanied the curate of the parish to the
spot. They passed along the street, and saw a board up with
the words " National School." He (the Archbishop) asked
him whether that was not the entrance to the school, but he
assured him no, it was not, and that they must go through the
chapel-yard. They went accordingly through the yard—went
to the back of it, where there was no entrance—and went to
the entrance from the street, which had been the entrance for
many years. But the parties, nevertheless, who had made the
complaint in the first instance, no doubt believed it, or they
would have sent the case up for the consideration of the En-
glish Legislature; they would never have appealed to him who
was on the spot. He immediately found that the grievance
here complained of was totally without foundation. Their
Lordships had heard of one petition which had been presented
that evening from the clergy of the diocese of Derry and
Raphoe. The petition was virtually for the withdrawal of the
grant for the united system of education, and in some in-
stances it argued against the division of the grant amongst
Roman Catholics, and the schools which were exclusive they
proposed should have it all. Tim petition of the Bishop of
Raphoe was informal, but that petition contained suggestions
for several important alterations which might be introduced
with advantage
The Earl of WICKLOW—Not the petition ; but the re-
solutions upon which the petition was founded.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN resumed. He begged
pardon—the resolutions. He assured him, as an individual,
that the Commissioners would be glad to receive any sugges-
tions calculated to improve the system, upon the foundation
that they themselves had laid down, that there should be no
restriction, and no coercion; and any thing against that prin-
ciple they would not consent to. Of any thing like coercion
he could not approve. As to petitions presented on the oppo-
site side, there were many things often stated which appeared
to him to be very right from the premises ; but those premises
were not founded on facts. He knew it was strongly urged
that these schools had failed for the purposes of united educa-
tion ; and this was equally strongly set forth as a ground for
abandoning it. Persons of some importance in the north of
Ireland had stated this as a reason fur the division of the
grant. The Right Reverend Prelate proceeded to comment
again on the difference of opinion which existed, and the
contest carried on in reference to the authorised ver-
sion of the Scriptures and the Douay version. How
was an unlearned person to judge in such a case ?
When he spoke of -unlearned persons he meant the great
mass of the people, who were not profound Hebrew scholars,
who naturally said, " 011, you tell us that there is a dif-
ference in many essential points of doctrine. You may
be right ; but we take the word of our clergyman." In fact,
so little different were the two versions, that the great body
of the Roman Catholics would not object to the authorised
version, but as a point of honour. That an objection was
raised by them to the authorised version of the Scriptures on
important and fundamental points he did not believe. It
was, indeed, a most dangerous principle to establish that there
was an essential difference between the two versions ; for
their Lordships well knew that the great mass of the unlearned
must depend upon the learned for the meaning of Greek
and Hebrew words. It was indispensable on the part of
the uninformed to depend on the authority of the informed.
Few of the lower classes could say from their own know-
ledge that there was such a place as Rome ; few, especially
on the Continent, could say from their own knowledge that
there was such an object as the sea, for they had never seen
it ; but they depended on the relations and descriptions of
others ; for althuugh those relations and descriptions might
differ in some particulars, the difference was not so great as
to impeach their general veracity—so they believed. It was
the same with matters of religion. The Commissioners had
undertaken a most laborious task, in the discharge of which
they had undergone every form of vituperation and obloquy.
Of all this they never complained, but went on doing what
they conceived to be their duty. They were anxious, how-
ever, that the system itself should be properly appreciated.
They were not at all anxious about their own characters ;
for however deeply they might for a time suffer, they felt it
could not he in a better cause than in endeavouring to en-
lighten the people of Ireland, and they knew that in the long
run the slander uttered against them would be mischievous

only to their opponents.-(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The
House of Lords was a deliberate assembly, not a criminal
court ; and the commissioners had no complaint to make
in it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They had been abused by
false reports of their conduct. They looked with satisfaction
to the appointment of the Committee proposed by the Noble
Viscount. But the great question to be determined was,
whether the people of Ireland, who could not be coerced into
the adoption of any religion, should be left in darkness, or
worse than darkness, or whether an attempt should be made by
conciliatory means to enlighten and improve them ? Of this
he was perfectly sure, that without some measure of that kind,
all other measures, however important they might seem, for
tranquillizing and benefitting Ireland would utterly fail.—
( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of WICKLOW observed that the Most Rev.
Prelate seemed to have forgotten the circumstances under
which the Right Reverend Prelate who preceded him had
spoken. When the Right Reverend Prelate had ineffec-
tually endeavoured to prevail on their Lordships to appoint a
Committee on the subject, he lied, of course, brought for-
ward a great many circumstances in support of his view of
it. What was the consequence ? That the Board of Com-
missioners, of which the Most Reverend Prelate was at the
head, had thought proper to publish, in the shape of a Report,
an answer to the Right Reverend Prelate, couched in the
most angry and vituperative terms. Although the Most
Reverend Prelate had said that he did not think that House a
place for statements of such a nature, he had concurred in
the formation of a Report composed of such statements, and
which Report he knew would, as a matter of course, be laid
on the table of the House. In that public Report the Most
Reverend Prelate charged the Right Reverend Prelate with
falsehood ; and now he censured the Right Reverend Prelate
for standing up in his place and defending himself from
the imputation. Now this was not fair dealing. He was
not in the country when the report was made ; but he had
read it a few days ago, and was struck with one passage, in
which it was stated, that on communicating with Lord
Stanley, when that Noble Lord was a Member of the Irish
Government, he had intimated to them that he thought it
desirable that schools belonging to monasteries, nunneries,
&c. should be brought under the consideration of the Com-
missioners. He (the Earl of Wielclovv) would venture to say

that Lord Stanley never gave any such intimstion ; for it was a
direct violation of the principle on which the system was
formed, and which had reference only to such schools as the
Commissioners had complete control over, which of course
they had not over the schools of nunneries and monasteries.
The Noble Earl had alluded to the motion which he (the
Earl of Wicklow) had on a former occasion made on this
subject. He had made that motion, because he thought that
the system which the present system superseded had been
eminently beneficial. The Kildare-street system was now,
however, totally superseded ; and the present system had been
for some years in operation. Admitted so far by the Legis-
lature, it was impossible now to abolish it ; and theref we lie
was anxious that it should be carried on in the best way pos-
sible. That was the view which the petition he had that night
presented took of the subject. A modification might he adopted
conciliatory to all parties.
Lord PLUNK ET said that the philosophical, liberal, and
enlightened speech of the Most Reverend Prelate had given
the debate a complexion totally different from that which it
had previously worn.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In that ,Host
Reverend Prelate's observations he ( Lord Plunket) entirely
concurred. The sentiments of the Most Reverend Prelate
were such as ought to belong to every Protestant and Chris-
tian divine ; they were imbued with charitable feeling, and
were calculated to do great good, and to remove exaspera-
tion in the minds of the Catholics, and of a great portion of
the Protestants of Ireland. The Right Rev. Prelate having
brought a charge against the Board of Commissioners, which
charge they had refuted, he (Lord Plunket) as a kind of grand
juror, had ignored the bill which the Right Rev. Prelate had
preferred. He was satisfied that there was no ground for the
Right Rev. Prelate's charges. But the defence of the Com-
missioners did not rest on their own-statements. The present
was a great experiment ; the Commissioners had shown how
far it had been successful. This was no hasty matter. The
subject had been four or five and twenty years under consi-
deration. Commissions had been appointed in 1812 and in
1822, from both of which several Reports had been pre-
sented—those from the latter perfectly agreeing with those
from the former. Those Reports went the whole length of
declaring that Scripture extracts were proper, not (as the
Right Reverend Prelate still maintained with extraordinary
obstinacy) to supersede the Bible, but to steer clear of the
difficulties attendant upon requiring the reading of the Bible.
Well, after these two Commissions had made their Report,
a Select Committee of the House of Commons was appointed,
who, after due consideration, recommended the present system
of education, and one Parliament granted a sum of money for
carrying it into effect. After all this bad been done, and after
a Board of Commissioners was appointed on the recommenda-
tion of the Legislature, lie thought no person—and, above all,
no Legislator—had a right to show any bitterness, or any feel-
ings of anger, that the Board had prosecuted the plan en-
trusted to their management. He was, indeed, quite at a loss
to discover the cause of the Right Rev. Prelate's violent in-
dignation, or account, in any possible way, why he should
denounce the system in the extraordinary manner he hail done.
That Board was composed almost entirely of members belong.
ing to the Right Rev. Prelate's own Church. The Acts they
were carrying into effect were the Acts of the Legislature ; and
what, he would ask, could be in their proceedings, or in the
regulations which they had adopted, to kindle such a degree of
excitement in his mind ? The language of the Right Rev.
Prelate was, that the present system of education was cal-
culated to disturb the peace of the community, to produce
immorality, to put an end to all religious feeling among the
people, and cause dissensions between the teachers and pupils
in these institutions. lie was utterly at a loss to see any ground
for such results as the Right Rev. Prelate thought the system
calculated to produce. Could it be the lessons recommended
by the Board that were calculated to bring about a total ab-
sence of religious feeling? What were these lessons? The
first lesson inculcated the duty of " living peaceably with all
men, even with those who differed from them in religious per-
suasion." Another lesson was to the following effect :—" Our
Saviour Christ commanded his disciples to love one another--
to bless them that cursed them, and to pray for their persecu-
tors. He called on them to adhere to the truth, but not to act
harshly towards those who were in error, and believed not in
the truth. He prohibited his disciples from fighting in his be-
half, and commanded them not to return evil for evil, but to do
unto others as they wished to be done unto, anti show to all
that they were followers of Christ, who, when reviled, reviled
not again." Now he would ask whether a Right Rev. Prelate,
or any other Christian, ought, in the spirit of the Gospel, to
make such charges against any class of Christians, and call
the Catholic hierarchy of Ireland a rabid priesthood ?—( Hear,
hear.) He had a published speech before him in the shape
of a pamphlet. It purported to be the speech of the Right
Reverend the Bishop of Exeter, but he did not know whether
the statements were made by him, or whether it had been pub-
lished under his authority ; on examining the pamphlet he
found it was not exactly the speech spoken by the Right Re-
verend Prelate ; he must say there had been some cookery,
some dressing up, but the substance of it was the same. This
pamphlet had an anonymous preface beginning in these words :
" It has been deemed necessary (he did not know by whom)
to publish the speech in a separate form, in consequence of a
Bill having passed since the speech was delivered to grant
50,000/, for the religious instruction to all classes, with-
out distinction of religion." The pamphlet was published
by Mr. Murray, a most respectable publisher; and as the
Right Reverend Prelate had not put his name to it, he
must treat it as anonymous. He took up the pamphlet--
he could not say written in a Christian spirit—to mark
the passages which were incorrect, but he found it need-
less to do so, for in every page there were passages,
not only incorrect, but actually unfounded. It was a pious
vituperation from beginning to end. The Right Reverend
Prelate had censured him for a charge made against the Right
Rev. Prelate on a former occasion. The charge was, that the
Right Rev. Prelate said the system adopted by the Commis-
sioners sanctioned the mutilation of the Bible (he understood
that assertion had been avowed), and he then proceeded to
justify himself. He (the Bishop of Exeter) admitted that he
did not consider it a mutilation of the Bible to use extracts ;
but he was satisfied such extracts as would be acceptable to all
persons never would be agreed on. Now, what were the
grounds on which he came to such a conclusion ? lie had
availed himself of the evidence given by a Roman Catholic
bishop, who, he insinuated, had asserted that such extracts never
could be agreed on : he stated these words had been given on
oath before a Committee of the House, by Dr. Murray, that he
had been led into error by evidence given on oath by a Roman
Catholic bishop, but would never fall into such an error again ;
and would never give credit to Dr. Murray or any Roman
Catholic bishop. Now, such language never was used by
Dr. Murray. He had explicitly denied it ; and after this
explicit and distinct denial had been made, the Right Rev.
Prelate said Dr. Murray had given a different interpretation
to his words, and that therefore no Roman Catholic bishop
was to he believed on his oath. Why was there ever such an
unjustifiable, disgusting proposition to come, not only from a
Christian bishop, but from any person of gentlemanly feel.
ings ?—( Hear, hear.) There was charity in such an assertion !
and the logic (as a Noble Friend hinted to him) of the Right
Reverend Prelate was merely palmed on the charity. The
fact was, the words never were uttered. A conclusion had
been made on the assumption that they had been uttered ; and
the Right Reverend Prelate considered himself justified, on
such premises, to say that he would not believe a Roman Ca-
tholic bishop on his oath. He would ask if any charge could
be made more galling, more inflaming, or more insulting—
( Cheers)—or any stronger language adopted for maligning
the entire body of the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland? But
the Right Rev. Prelate, not content with maligning the
hierarchy, attacked the inferior clergy. At a speech made by
Mr. O'Connell at Drogheda it appeared Dr. Crolly was pre-
sent, and because that gentleman was present, lie is to be
made answerable for whatever Mr. O'Connell said.—( !fear.)
But what did Mr. O'Connell say ? He said ho did not
want the repeal of the union, but he wanted justice to
Ireland.__( Hear, hear.) He did not see any great delin-
quency in a Roman Catholic priest being present at such a
speech, or why he should on that account be involved in the
srveeping anathema pronounced against the whole Catholic
hierarchy of Ireland. But it would be a waste of words to
dwell on such a subject. The Right Rev. Po late said the
Report contained a falsehood (he did not say error)—it con-
tained a falsehood respecting the number of clergymen who
had made application for grants of money to establish schools
in their districts. But he said more ; and though he did not
charge the Bishops, lie charged some others with having re-
course to such a miserable artifice to deceive the public mind.
But that subject had been already explained. Again, the
Right Rev. Prelate had taken upon himself to charge the
Commissioners with forging the names of several clergy-
men, and had instanced those of Messrs. Morrison and
Cockburn ; but the charge had been shown to be utterly
without foundation, for both the parties named, on being
shown their signatures by the Commissioners, fully acknow_
hedged them. So much for the charge of forgery, and he
trusted the House would fully appreciate the injustice, the
gross impropriety of a Right Rev. Prelate coming forward
with these vague, random charges, and endeavouring- to
create an impression on the public mind on the strength of
allegations which, on the slightest investigation, turned out to
be utterly devoid of foundation.—( Hear, hear.) As to the
case of Mr. Robertson, the charge here was, not that his
name was used without his authority, but that there was no
such person as Mr. Robertson. And the Archbishop of Dub-
lin was vituperated for not having looked over his books for
the purpose of ascertaining Mr. Robertson's identity in his
diocese. Now, in the first place, it was not stated that Mr.
Robertson was in the diocese of Dublin ; and if it had been
so stated, it was no part of the duty or business of the Arch-
bishop to look over his books for the name unless represen-
tations had been made that such a person was erroneously
stated as being within his diocese. There was one remark
on this point which he (Lord Plunket) could not avoid
making. The Right Reverend Prelate had not chosen to
apply to his brother in Christ to learn from him what
the real state of the case was. No, the Right Reverend
Prelate stated that the information that no such clergyman
as Mr. Robertson was in the diocese of the Archbishop of
Dublin came to him from the Archdeacon of Dublin.
How came this about ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He (Lord Plunket) knew and highly respected the Archdea-
con in question, and he was perfectly clear that ho would ne-
ver have written to the Right Reverend Prelate on the sub-
ject had he not done so in answer to an application to that
effect from the Right Rev. Prelate.—( Hear.) Now, he
would put it to their Lordshipe, whether such a proceeding,
on the part of the Right Reverend Prelate was worthy or
becoming—( Hear) whether it was right or proper on the part
of that Right Rev. Prelate to write to an archdeacon for the
purpose of endeavouring to extract out of him something on
which to found an allegation against his Archbishop.—( Hear,
hear.) This proceeding, however, was only of a piece with
Mr. Cleaver's letter on which the Morrison portion of the
Right Reverend Prelate's case was made out. Did the Right
Reverend Prelate mean to say that Mr. Cleaver or any person
on his behalf Mould have written to him on the subject had he
not been written to by the Right-Reverend Prelate? No, the

Right Reverend Prelate had been furnishing. his armoury wit
accusations—pumping the inferior dignitaries of Ireland, an,
he (Lord Plunket) would again put it seriously to the Hous:
whether such a mode of proceeding- was worthy or proper ? I
was:monstrous that any Member of their Lordships' House shoul
found upon rumours and assumptions of this sort such hear"
charges against persons who could not possibly be there ti
answer him.—(llear, hear.) He would not delay the Hous
by adverting at any length to the distribution of the funds i
the hands of the Commissioners. It appeared by the repot
that while the Roman Catholics of Ireland constituted seven
eighths of the whole population, the proportion in which th
money was distributed was, that the Protestant correspondent
received 2,100/. per annum, and the Roman Catholic corres
pondents 8,72 11. As to Mr. Nangles, while he ( Lord Nun
ket) concurred in applauding the object of that gentleman ii
his mission to Achill_n))., doubtless, it was a most disinterest ei
one which would prompt hint to go that wretched part of tin
country in the desire of converting the Roman Catholics ti
Protestantism--lie was not prepared to say that he admire(
that gentleman's discretion, or consi bred that he proeeede(
on his mission in a way at all calculated to promote peace it
that part of the country. Ile denied, however, that the Com.
missioners had meant to throw any imputation on Mr. Nangles
or to involve him in any way in a charge of creating a hreacl
of the peace. The Commissioners had examined, closet
examined, into the case of Mr. O'Donnell, the school.
master, and the result of that examination was sucl
as to satisfy them that Mr. O'Donnell was entirel;
blameless. The charge as to the use of seditious languaga
was proved to be absolutely unfounded. As to the Commis
sioners enabling O'Donnell to try his action agains
the publisher of the libel, all he ( Lord Plunket) could sa;
was, that had the Commissioners neglected to do so, the:
would have been greatly to blame. The next branch of the
Right Rev. Prelate's attack, referred to the alleged falsifica
tion of the passage in St. Luke. Now, what the Commis
sioners stated was perfectly clear and true, that any person
looking at the extract from St. Luke, and the passage allude(
to in the authorised version, would say there were reasons will
that passage should not be given out to be read by young,
persons—by young females; that however proper the passag,
undoubtedly was in its place in the Scriptures, it was not on(
which the father of a family, the director of a school, woult
wish to present to the eyes of young girls. Indeed he (Lore
Plunket) was altogether astonished at the Right Rev. Prelat(
adopting such a course in reference to this passage. The Pro.
testant bishops and clergy of Ireland, when applied to, in 1826
by the Commissioners then appointed, to furnish extracts fron
the Scriptures, in furnishing extracts from St. Luke carefully
left out the passage which the present Commissioners-6i
heretical Commissioners—were so vituperated for omitting,
There was another fact ; the society for the dicountenancing
of vice—a peculiarly Protestant society—in making extract:
from the Scriptures invariably left out this passage. As t(
the proportion of Roman Catholics and Protestants, it ap.
peared from the returns that the number of Protestants h
attendance on the schools was 17,874, while the number of
Roman Catholics in attendance on them was 96,514, exhibit.
ing a far greater proportion of Protestants than their propor-
tion as to the whole population would warrant. 'Was it not
satisfactory to the Right Rev. Prelate to see 17,874 Protes-
tants uniting in amicable intercourse with the Roman Catholic
portion of the population ? Surely it could be no disappoint-
ment or annoyance to a just and good mind to see this.—
( Hear, hear.) He regretted very much to see the Protes-
tant clergy put forward to bear the brunt of the battle. The
Protestant clergy, when the Kildare- street Society was first
established, set themselves in decided hostility to it; but no
sooner did they find that the Roman Catholics also objected
to it than they turned round and as cordially supported it.
Let the House consider how large were the funds already sub-
sisting for the promotion of Protestant education. There vas
Wilson's Charity producing 8001. a-year, Erasmus Smith's
Charity 5001. a year, the Bluecoat School 500/, a year,
Morgan's Charity 3,0001. a year, the Endowed Schools
25,0001. a year, the Hibernian School, Parliamentary grant,
2,000/. a year, and another Charity 1,2001. a year, all in landed
property. All these funds were available for the education of
Protestants, without assistance from the State ; while the
Roman Catholics had no charitable funds of this description on
which to rely. Lord Plunket went on to say, the whole ten-
dency of the Right Reverend Prelate's harangues on this sub-
ject was to swell the cry of No Popery, which attempts had
been making to revive in the country. Now, as an antidote to
this, he ( Lord Plunket) could not help referring to something,
though it did not arise exactly, out of the present debate, and
that something was the Charge delivered by the Right Rev.
Prelate to the clergy of the diocese of Exeter —( Hear.) Now,
as to that Charge, he (Lord Plunket) must take the liberty of
saying that so unwarranted a proceeding as that, such unwar-
ranted language, such unwarranted sentiments as were embo-
died in that Charge, he had never before met with in any com-
position, lay, or clerical, or a more unconstitutional proceed-
ing.---( Hear.) He begged to ask what right had the Right
Reverend Prelate to say that the majority of the Representa-
tives of the people, and the majority also of the Commons of
England were guilty of perjury or of the subornation of per-
jury.—( Hear.) The charge was a very grave one. He
would say it was an impeachable offence.—_( Hear.) He did
not wish to involve the Right Rev. Prelate in any more un-
pleasant business than he was at present engaged in--( A
laugh)—but he would say he had a difficult duty to perform to
substantiate his charge, that the majority of the Commons
of England were perjured. To bring such a charge against
the House of Commons, the Government, and the majority
of the Commons of England—a charge which was made in
the most unqualified terms—was unexampled in offensiveness
in the history of the country. Such a flagrant act was not to
be found recorded in the history either of the State or the
Church.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of FINGAL remarked on the Right Reverend
Prelate having described the Roman Catholic clergy as a
"rabid priesthood," notwithstanding the difficulties and dan-
gers wi h which they were surrounned. The Right Reverend
Prelate also asserted that he did not believe the Right Reve-
rend Dr. Murray had stated the facts on his oath. Now the
Right Reverend Prelate was known to be a man who had
been respected in every situation he had occupied. There was
another allusion made by the Right Reverand Prelate which
he set down to the account of the oath. He should be glad
to know was there ever to be an end to that charge. Tho
Right Reverend Prelate contended that the model schools
should not have been established in Dublin. What more
proper place, however, than the metropolis of Ireland wag
there for the establishment of model schools ?
After a few words from Lord CLONCURRY,
The motion was agreed to, and the Committee appointed,
Their Lordships adjourned till Thursday.
C

.OLI3URN'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE AND
IIcMORIsT FOR MARCH, EDITED BY THEODORE thl()K, Eye
The present Number of this popular magazine amply sustains
its character for wit and humour. The various articles aro
all good. The editor continues his inimitable " Gurney
Papers." Captain Marryat has coramenced a new story, en-
titled " The Phantom Ship," which promises to become as
popular as any of his preceding works--(Mr. Colburn has
added a new attraction to his Magazine, in securing the aid of
this distinguished writer.) Mr. Poole's " Opening- of the
Little PedlingtonTheatre" is capital ; and the distresses of
Douglas Jerrold's " Mr. Peppercorn" are ludicrous in the
extreme. We have also a third and concluding Epistle from
the Grand Kentucky Ballooners, by one of the authors of
" The Rejected Addresses;" and " Jack Abbott's Breakfast,"
by Leigh Hunt, in addition to articles by the lion. E. Phipps,
Mrs. Norton, N. P. Willis, Alfred Crowquill, &c. &c. We
must not omit to mention that the Magazine is embellished
with a portrait of Mrs. Gore, the authoress of " Female
Domination," accompanied by an interesting memoir of that
popular writer.
PICCIOLA ; OR, CAPTIVITY CA PTIVE.—The
merit of this novel, which has been freely translated by a dis-
tinguished English writer, ought to be sufficiently attested by
the fact that it has attained a fourth edition in Paris within
two months of its first publication. But so much disgust has
been justly directed in England, by the guardians of public,
taste, towards the novels of In Jeuise "twice, that it may be
necessary to bespeak indulgence for " Picciola," as opposed,
alike in spirit and execution to all classes of her rivals.
" Picciola," says the translator, " is ' an herb of grace'—we
would not have assisted to transplant a noxious weed into the
literature of our native country."

-----
FAMILIES RESIDING
..IN THE COUNTRY
are supplied with TEAS and COFFEES at the WHOLESALE
PItICE for CASH :
Itlack...2s. OW 2s. 4d. 2s. sd. Si. Bs. 64. 4s. 45. lad.
Green..3s. Bd. 4s. Od. 4s. Bd. ss. 55. 6d. 65. , 75. OW Bs.
Coffee, Is. 6d. Is. Bd. Is. 10d. 2s....Finest Mocha, 2s.
When the order exceeds £lO, the Carriage is Paid.
G. T. MANSELL, and CO.,
Wholesale Tea Dealers, 2, Ilucklersburv, Cheapside.

HORIZONTAL FLAT WATCHES
with accurately finished jewelled movements, warranted, are offered
in Silver cases, price Five Guineas each ; or in Gold cases, pried
Nine Guineas each, at T. COX SA VO Y'S, Watchmaker, Jewel.,
ler, and Silversmith, -17, Cornhill, London.
N.B.—Second-hand Watches purchased in exchange.

81/?'
On the 24th ult., at Knightsbrid S.
tee, the lady of John Babel',
Esq., of a son.
On the 25th ult., at Croydon, the lady of J. W. Sutherland,
Esq., of a son.
On the 27th ult., the lady of B. Hebeler, Esq., of York-place,
Portman-square, of a daughter.
On the 25th ult., at Plymouth, the lady of Sir Henry Black-
wood, Bart., of a daughter.
On the 27th ult., in Bruton-street, the Right Hon. Lady Cot-
tenharn, of a daughter.
On the 27th ult., Mrs. Simpson of Oxford-terrace, Edgeware"
road, of a daughter.

MA R R lED.
On the 211 ult., John Itoyds, Esq., jun., to Maria, third daugh-
ter of the late J. Dennistoun, Esq., of Golf Hill, near Glasgow.
On the 4th ult., at Perez de la Fronteira, in Spain, Peter- Chag•
Gordon, Esq., younger, of Wardhouse, Aberdeenshire, to Rosa'
eldest daughter of the late J. Prendergast, Esq., of Cadiz.

DIED.
At St. Petersburg h, on the 18th of January, aged 71, his Eicel;
lency Vice-Admiral Sir Thomas Candler, of the Russian Imperial
Navy, Knight of the several Orders of St. Anne, St. George, an"
St. Vladimir, Grandson of the Venerable Henry Candler, of Cal-
lan Castle, in the county of Kilkenny, Archdeacon of Ossory.
At Cheltenham, on the 27th ult., Elizabeth Lewis, forty-tvv°
years housekeeper to Admiral Manley.
On the sth ult., at Blackwell, Durham, J. D. Nesham, Esq.'
aged 64.
On the 24th ult., at Salt Hill, John Smith Barry, Esq.,
of Mar-
bury Hall, Cheshire.
Packe'
On the 26th ult., in Wimpole-street, aged 86, Mrs. R.
sister of C. J. Packe, Esq., of Prestwold Hall, Lancashire.

London: Printed and Published by MUiWO YOUNG, of Nu'
112, Strand, at The ,cl4ll Office, No. 112, Strand, in the ceuntr
of MiddleuX.—Wednesday, March 1, 11437.