The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-09 00:00:00

g

e

cant its defence was not undertaken by any of the colic mgues
of the Lord Lieutenant, that he was not answered by his
Secretary, but that it was reserved (naturally enough) for the
received guest and favoured friend of the Lord Lieutenant to
undertake that task.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition, and
cries of " Order" from the Ministerial benches.) He ( Sir
J. Graham) would adhere strictly to the rules of order, not-
withstanding the agitation which prevailed on the opposite
benches ; but he would, at the same time, express his senti-
ments (as he was eure every gentleman on his side would do)
with a firmness becoming a commoner of England. The
.Nohle Lord 'who opened the debate had adduced the authority
'Of Mr. FOX in Support of the rule which he had laid down for
144 Goverenment of Ireland, and he told them that they were
to meet "every succeeding demand by a succeeding concession,
A
P.atit the people were weary in demanding they were to be
revel in granting. The Noble Lord cited the authority of
dt. Fox, because no doubt he conceived that it would com-
taand the respect of that side of the House. For his part, he
should always entertain the highest respect for that authority
'eehenever it was cited. Mr. Fox was a great statesman. He
had a most capacious mind, capable of grasping with the prin-
ciples of government ; but he applied those principles to the
circumstances of the country, and the times in which he lived.
Hear.) He (Sir James Graham) had once the honour to
enjoy the friendship of a Noble Lord, a relative of Mr. Fox
(LordaHolland) ; and no one who had the good fortune to enjoy
the pleasure of that Nobleman's acquaintance could cease to
respect and to esteem him. He recollected to have heard that
Noble Lord give expression to his views of the principles of
Government in a pentameter verse of monastic Latin—
" Quae perpetuo suet agitate manent,"
Which translated thus—" Remain in Downing-street, and con-
tinue to keep your places."—( Cheers and laughter.) But if
Mr. Fox had lived to see the day when the Test and Corpora-
tion Acts had been repealed, when Emancipation had been
granted, and an-extensive reform in the representation of the
people, the Church cess taken off; and the burden thrown upon
the Church—if he had lived to see these things granted—
if he had seen a proposition made for the settlement of
the tithe question—a reduction of thirty per cent. made
in the amount—the occupier of the soil relieved from
the payment, and the burden placed on tile shoulders
of time landlords--if he had seen these things granted,
he (Sir J. Graham) would not believe that, in addition to all
this, he would have consented to the vote by ballot, triennial
Parliaments, the expulsion of the Bishops from the House of
Lords, and other measures of this description. He entertained
too high a respect for the wisdom of that eminent statesman to
believe that he would (had he lived to the present period)
have assented for a moment to any such monstrous demands.—
(Hear, hear.) If he could have done so, he would not be act-
ing in accordance with the Whig principles he had always ad-
vocated.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) saw a smile on
the face of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he men-
tioned the word Whig. He knew not what the present opinions
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer might be as to the meaning
of those principles ; but he would tell him that he ( Sir J.
Graham) still professed the Whig principles which he had al-
Ways advocated, the essence of which he conceived to be a
jealousy of Popish domination as strong and lasting as the love
of liberty. At this moment there was the utmost religious
animosity in Ireland, and every concession made to the Roman
Catholics increased that animosity.—( Cheers.) The National
Association contained the seeds of danger and ruin to the
country. The Noble Lord had called it "the spawn of their
own ill doings ;" but he would insist that it was rather the
Remo of the Noble Lord's indiscretion. The Right Hon.
Baronet then adverted to some remarks of Lord John Russell
upon the Catholic Association, during the existence of that
body.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman
was not quite accurate in his construction of his (Lord J.
Russell's) observations upon the body alluded to, and re-
marked that they would be found accurately reported in the
records of the time, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would refer
to them. What he intended to imply by the observations he
had made on the occasion to which he ( Sir J. Graham) had
reverted was that the great grievance at that time complained
of. In Ireland was the Established Church, and the mode in
which tithes were collected. —( Hear, hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM had been, he confessed, ex-
tremely anxious to hear what would be the Noble Lord's
description of the National Association. The Noble Viscount
at the head of his Majesty's Government, had, in his speech
on the Address, observed, in regard to that association,- " that
L 0 saw its existence with regret and concern, and could not
help saying, that the grounds stated by the Noble Lord who
aeconded the address did not, in his opinion, justify its exist-
ence."—( Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord opposite found
out plausible causes and excuses for its existence—( Hear,
hear, from the Opposition)—and relied:upon perpetual conces-
sion as the best method of securing its suppression.—( Hear,
bear.) Again, the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ire-
land, considered its existence as the natural consequence of
the policy which had been long pursued towards Ireland.
(Cheers from the Ministerial side of the House.) But let
him call the attention of the House to certain resolutions
which the National Association had passed towards the close
of the last year. Those resolutions related to the Tithe ques-
tion, and might appear irrelevant on the present occasion;
but he (Sir J. Graham) could not disconnect the question of
Corporation Reform from that relating to Tithes.—( Hear. )
But before he proceeded to those resolutions he would read
an extract from the speech of the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Kinkenny, by which their introduction was preceded.
e--( Hear.) In that speech the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
Man said, " I am distinctly the friend of the voluntary prin-
t iple."--( Hear, hear.) " I no more think it honest to com-
pel me to pay the spiritual doctor of any man than I think it
honest to force me to pay his apothecary's bill—whether he is
really ill, or only supposes himself so. Sir, the spiritual doc-
tor has no more claim to this payment than the apothecary
1143.—( Hear, hear.) If a man chooses to be physicked by the
one, and to be prayed for by the other, let him, in the name of
Heaven, pay for the indulgence of his whims—let him, I
say, pay for being physicked, and also for being prayed for."
And, again, in another passage of the same speech, the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman said—" I am fully confident that no
settlement of the question will be satisfactory to the Irish
people which is not based upon the principles which I
have endeavoured to advocate and explain."—( Hear, hear.)
At the conclusion of this speech the following resolutions
were proposed, and carried amid loud acclamations :—" That
it is incompatible with the principles of religious liberty, that
anY man should be compelled to pay for the ordinances of a
Church with which he is not joined in communion."--( Hear,
hear.) This was at least an honest and straightforward decla-
ration_( Hear, hear.) And here let him observe, that he was
hot now directing his observations to the supporters of Mini-
atcre only, but to the Ministers themselves.—(Great cheer-
mg-) The next resolution adopted at the National Associa-
tion, at the period he was alluding to, was—" That as, under
present appropriation of the tithe-composition, a tribute is
levied from the whole nation for the uses of the Church of
the one-tenth portion of time ccmmunity, the people of Ire-
land are, therefore, justified in demanding time total extinc-
tion of an assessment so applied."—( Hear, hear.) In that
resolution, the House could not fail to see that the principle of
total abolition of tithe was most clearly and distinctly laid
down,-._( Ileac, hear, from the Opposition, answered by
Cheers from several of the Irish Members.) But he would
proceed with the next resolution of the series adopted, which
Wes to the following effect ;—" That, in our opinion, no set-
tlement of the tithe question can give satisfaction to the people
bf Ireland, which is not founded on the foregoing princi-
ples,"_( Hear, hear.) Of what use, then, in the face of
resolutions like those, was the appropriation clause ?—( Hear,
bear.) Of what use was it, after such declarations, to
talk of introducing measures based on the principles of Mr.
Pox ?—( Immense cheering.) But there was still one more
resolution of the National Association to which he would ad-
Nest, and which was also passed on the same occasion with the
others That we call upon time people of Ireland not to
desist from all legal and constitutional means of redress till
they have obtained full and complete relief from an impost
equally oppressive and degrading." Such then was the spirit
of the resolutions adopted by Roman Catholics at the National
!Association. Let the House, then, compare them with the
Zeman Catholic Oath.—(Cheers from the Opposition
°enches.) The principle on which he would take his stand,
"as founded upon time present state of circumstances of Ire-
'and, and upon that principle he would strenuously resist the
establishment of Corporations in that country as proposed by
the Noble Lord opposite, for he believed that they would
contain time seeds of everything that was dangerous to its peace
and its prosperity. He saw nothing but clouds and darkness
In the political atmosphere of Ireland. The conduct of the
Government was vague and wavering—(Hear)—they ad-
dressed one argument to one House and another to the other,
and then, to crown all, there came an Association existing un-
der the favour of the Government; and yet passing resolutions
I_,° opposition to it at the very time when they had a Speech ad-
dressed to them from the Throne which called upon them to
deliberate upon measures, to give increased stability
to Protestant institutions.. —(Loud cheers from the Opposition
l'eaches.) Surely the House had not forgotten what took
Place at the time of Lord Grey's resignation ? He ( Sir J.
Graham) had reminded the House last year that in Ireland—
in that very country which was so strongly asserted to be in a
Condition fit for time system of Government proposed to be
adopted for it—there existed the Coercion Act—( Hear, hear)
'—and that that Act, as at first framed, contained clauses espe-
n'ally designed to meet an association like the one now exist-
s in Ireland.—(Hear, hear, from time Opposition benches.)
In June, 1834, how did the Cabinet of the day settle that
Point ? He (Sir J. Graham) knew, and it was time the coun-
try should know.—(Cheers) The Noble Viscount now at
The head of his Majesty's Government, and the Noble Lords
the present President of the Council, the Secretaries of State
for the Home and Foreign Departments, then members of
Earl Grey's Cabinet, urged upon the Noble Earl that the
motives for the introduction of the mutiny clauses into the
Coercion Bill no longer existed, and that circumstances were
altogether altered. Those Noble Lords all fell eff from Lord
Grey, and in July Lord Grey stood alone, still maintaining
ee clauses to be indispensable. For that he respected
'Ord Grey, and revered the reputation he had gained by his
rfesolute conduct ; he congratulated that Noble Earl on the
Le'l,ings of inward satisfaction with which he must now look
ie4elt upon the stoppage and check he had given to a great and
reeteeasing evil.—( Cheers.) Lord Grey was now in enviable
Thtrernent, whilst his colleagues were in possession of power.
Ii!• e Noble Secretary for Ireland had gone into a mass of
olated details and statements, and had said that the Irish Go-
f ernrnent challenged inquiry into its conduct.—( Hear, hear,
11;°,41 the Ministerial benches.) lee (Sir J. Graham) had
atioe _
eed with attention to the debate—he had hed the accu-
ieetinsion the one side and the defence on time other—and
Ink 'Tally as to that part relating to the resolutions respect-
ITUbleiTribe in
Ireland proposed at the Protestant meeting in
eaufess 3' the Hon. Member for Donegal, and he wa
Gentle he thought a strong case was made out against Lion.
the „s,tnen opposite.—(Cheers.) It was not the nu e
"Ittre of the crimes' Ireland that was to be taken into
mbferr-e-cobntuoi

consideration. He had ;during t' e recess carefully watched
all that had occurred in Ireland, and had seen much that was
calculated to cause fear and alarm.--( Hear, hear.) Did
not passive resistance exist in that country, not only to
tithes but to the recovery of other species of property 2--
(Hear, and cheers.) A gentleman at liirr, in proceeding to
distrain for rent and tithes due to him, had met with a for-
eihle resistance from a body of 500 persons, and was obliged
to call in the aid of twenty-three of the police. The police
was threatened in turn, and it was thought better to with-
draw till another day. On the second day the number of the
mob was increased to 2,000—( Hear, hear, hear)—who assem-
bled to resist the proceedings. Look at the position of the
Clergy.—( Hear, hear.) A Rev. Gentleman, of the name of
Cook, was shot at on his way to perform his duty—(" Hear,
hear," from the Opposition)—and another Clergyman, when
asking for assistance to cross a stream which it was necessary
for him to pass, for the same purpose, had two shots fired at
him. Such specimens of crime as these—crimes of such a
dye and character—were neither to be heard of in England or
in Scotland, even in times of popular tumult.—( Cheers. )
Now, as to Mr. Cassidy's appointment, had he not been re-
fused admission to the magisterial bench on a prior occasion by
the Lord Lieutenant, on account of his being notorious for
tithe agitation ? His appointment as a magistrate for the
Queen's County was given contrary to the expressed wish of
the Lieutenant of that county, —( Hsar, hear.) That favoured
magistrate had paid to the Association objected to by the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government—.( Hear, hear,
hear)—the tithe which ought to have gone into other hands—
( Hear, hear) —and yet the Noble Lord opposite talked of the
Government of Ireland upholding the law.—( Hear.) Look
again at the promiscuous opening of the gaols which Lord
Mulgrave had caused. It was stated that Lord Mulgrave
always required the recommendation of the keeper or inspec-
tor of the ga01..---(" Of the governor," from some Honour-
able Gentleman on the Ministerial benches.) Well, then,
governor let it be, as the title of gaoler was not harmonious
enough for Irish ears. It certainly ought to be some title of
honour, as the Lord Lieutenant so frequently consulted him.
—( Laughter.) But in the cases of Alullingar and two or
three other places the Lord Lieutenant, it was shown, had
not consulted the Governors of the gaols ; but while he
stopped as he passed through, for the purpose of changing
horses, had merely walked as far as the gaols, and dis-
charged a great number of prisoners, without any positive
recommendation.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Where was the
Lord Lieutenant's Privy Council ?—where were his confi-
dential advisers ? He could only say that, had he been his
confidential adviser, and had not been consulted upon such
occasions as those, he would not have remained any
longer a member of his Government.—( Loud cheers.) In
the last case, too, he had mentioned, out of twenty-two of
the offenders liberated there were nine of them against the
revenue laws.—( Hear, hear.) All these matters, however,
were, in his opinion, secondary in importance to the appointment
( f Mr. Pigott. In alluding to the subject of this appointment
he trusted the House would not forget that the Noble Lord
(Lord John Russell) had said that the fonndation of the
Government in Ireland was to be in perfect accordance with
that spirit of impartiality which it professed. In this
instance the Government had the whole bar of Ireland to
choose from, for the purpose of filling that most important si-
tuation. He could see no necessity for the choice that had been
made. It appeared, in short, that in proportion as any man was
active in this Society, he would win the confidence of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, and be raised to offices of great trust ;
so that nothing was wanting to identify the Irish Government
with the National Association.—(Renewed cheering.) He
would read, without entering into any of his statements, the lan-
guage of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Kil-
kenny ; and he thought it ought to be a warning to the House
and the country of the lengths to which it was intended to lead
them, if they granted the measure now proposed. "I am then,"
said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, " for a reform of
the House of Lords, and, as a means for obtaining that end,
I am for the household suffrage.—(Cheers.) I am for the
ballot, and I am for doing away with a property qualifica-
tion; for I say again, what I have so often repeated, that if
the poor man has not moral worth, virtue, and intelligence to
recommend him, he will have no chance of the suffrages of the
people, for wealth will always carry with it great influence. I
dislike the Tories as much as the ultra-Radicals in England.
lam the very antipodes of them. lam for the Whigs, although
they do not go the whole way with me ; but, when I get them
on to a certain point, I will bring them the rest of the way with
me."—(Loud and continued cheering followed the reading of
this paper.) That quotation, resumed the Right Hon. Baro-
net, was pretty strong, but it was nothing like what he was
about to mention. Let the House hear the following, and com-
pare it with the doctrines laid down by Mr. Fox, and enun-
ciated by the Noble Lord on the opposite side of the House
on the opening of this debate :—" My opinion is," said the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Kil-
kenny at the National Association, " that the people will
never rest satisfied until tithes are abolished. That is my
opinion. That opinion I gave in the House of Commons
during the course of the last session. But I said then, as I
say now, give us this instalment now. There is no danger—
Mr. Labor admits it—l say, of coaxing the people from their
interests by giving them a taste of a few agreeable instal-
ments. Let them have a little pap, and depend upon it they
will wait for solid food."—(Loud laughter.) Again, the
Hen. and Learned Gentleman said, with respect to the aboli-
tion of tithes and other ulterior Measures, " To obtain corpo-
ration reform, that will be an excellent instalment. There is
a fable, in which it is narrated that a man, having received
some boon from the great enemy of mankind, made a bargain
with him that he would do anything that lie might require of
him"—" and this," said the Right Hon. Baronet, " seems
very much the sort of bargain his Majesty's Ministers had
made with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman."—( Loud laugh-
ter.) " And Satan then directed him to do one of three
things—that he should either injure his mother, kill his father,
or get drunk; and the man, having chosen the last, got
drunk, and then committed the other two:offences." " Be-
ware," said the Right Hon. Baronet, " of that drunkenness
which arises at the abolition of tithes." " Thus it is that I
propose to postpone the question of the total abolition of tithe
—no, the consideration of the question, I mean. But give
me corporation reform, and then I shall soon get the other."
( Loud cheering followed the delivery of this passage.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member fur Kilkenny had
said so last year, and they had since heard it,' on his own au-
thority, that Corporation Reform was only to be viewed as an
instalment. The Right Hon Baronet then quoted a passage
from the speech of Lord Russell, which we could not dis-
tinctly hear, but which was to the effect that Popery was break-
ing in upon the land, and he only regretted that so many Pro-
testants should give it a helping hand.—( Loud cheers.)
Sir J. C. H 0 B HOUSE—The applause which proceed
from Lion. Gentlemen on the other side are very natural upon
the conclusion of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Will the House now allow me to make a few comments upon
the remarks which he has made ? I mean to do so not alto-
gether in the tone adopted by my Right Hon. Friend, if lie
will permit me still so to call him.—( Hear, and laughter.)
mean to attempt recalling the House of Commons to that
which in fact is the subject matter of debate. But in doing so
I think that it is due in the first place to myself, as to others,
to the noble and honourable persons with whom I have the
honour to he connected, to make one or two comments upon
that which formed, in my opinion, the spirit of the Right
Hon. Gentleman's speech, and which was directed against a
Noble Lord who holds a place at present in his Majesty's Ad-
ministration. And why was this? Because that Noble Lord

happened to have used an ingenious quotation in the other
House of Parliament. For this he has been subjected by my
Right Hon. Friend to what I must take the liberty of calling a
very unjust imputation.—( Hear, bear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman has been pleased to say in reference to the quota-
ticn made by Lord Holland in the House of Lords—a quota-
tion, I believe, from some monkish historian—l can help him
to the name, although I suppose he does not require it from me
—the quotation is from Janus Vitanus, and it is this—" Qum
perpetuo sunt agitata manent." And the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, my Right Hon. Friend, says, that the true interpreta-
tion of this is, that " by perpetual agitation" my Noble Friend
the Noble Lord, and we " are to remain in-office."
Sir JAMES GRAHAM made an observation which was
not distinctly heard in the gallery. He was . understood to
disclaim applying it to the Noble Lord in the manner de-
scribed by the Right Hon. Baronet.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE— Did not the Right Hon. Baro-
net mean to apply it to the Administration of which the Right
Hon. Baronet was a member?—( Hear, hear.) By so apply-
ing it I hope I am not guilty of any discourtesy in throwing
back the imputation, and telling the Right Hon. Gentleman
that no such motive influences his Majesty's Ministers in the
conduct they pursue—(Cheers)—and if the Right Hon. Gen.
tleman can find for his charge no greater proof than that which
he has brought forward to-night, I am quite confident that the
country will not pass such a sentence as he has pronounced
upon us:—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) My Right Hon. Friend
seems to think that it is for some base objects we are sitting
here—that it is for the mere emoluments, the mere power, that
'office confers that we condescend to sit here, and to be baited
by him every night.—( Hear, and loud cheers from the Minis-
terial Members.) I trust that the Right Hon. Gentleman
tas had too much experience of the personal honour, if not of
the political conduct of his former friends, to believe that
they are capable of acting in a manner so completely incom-
patible with the honour of English gentlemen.—( Hear, and
cheers.) I do not know what pleasure the Right Hon.
Gentleman can find in thus perpetually putting forward
such charges. But I wish to call this to his recollection
that when a man changes his opinions (I do not mean to
say the Right Hon. Gentleman has done so); but when
a man changes to another side of the House (and no one has
a right to object to that) ; but this I ray, that a man may act
magnanimously without carrying into his new position a per-
petual bitterness against his ancient allies.—( Hear, and cheers
from the Ministerial Members.) The Right Hon. Gentle-
man has omitted no occasion on which he did not bring for-
ward (not political) but personal charges against us.—( Hear,
and cheers.) Allow me to say, that he has repeated this
practice over and over again ; and after having tried to create
some division amongst the friends behind me, he now tries to
create divisions amongst those who supported the illustrious
man who was at the head of the Administration to which that
Right Hon. Gentleman belonged. I have seen his motives;
and I have traced over and over again the Right Hon. Gen-
t leman. —(

Sir J. GRA HA NI rose to order. There was no person less
disposed than he was to interrupt the course of the debate ;
but he appealed to the Speaker whether, when the Right Hon.
Gentleman proceeded to impute motives, he did not exceed
the order of debate.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE : I do not think I am open to the
reprehension of the Right Hon. Baronet. I certainly said I
could trace the motives ; perhaps I ought to have said the
intention.—( Hear, and cries of " Order," from opposition
members). Ido not mean to say any thing whatever which
can be construed into a want of courtesy to the Right Hon.
Gentleman; but what I meant to say was this, that I thought