The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-24 00:00:00

mede ? By a body of men who, were at present, unfortu-
nately, at the head of affairs, and who only looked to the
meene by which they could retain their places.—( Hear, hear.)
Let thorn come'down honestly, and avow that they supported
the present measure because they felt it would raise the Ca-
tholic and the Dissenter at the tipeese of a Church which was
the object of their detestation, red which they were anxious
to destroy.=se Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell ) The Hon.
and feeerned Member for Kilkenny cheered, but that was in
his (Mr. Trevor's) opinion, and his opinions on any subject h..
had never shrunk from aVowing.—( Hear, he:t-; ,3tvs.slt
the greeted!: nil which the tereent reesseure nitre ?Bret/gilt fdr-
wea, because he believed there te) be 'Unfounded in fact, and
pernicious in principle. Ile denied that the Church property
was private property, for if they were once to establish so
ha at fol a principle it might he extended to private propeetee
He was desirous to !Tined the Established Churen ussessese he
was convinced that a purer or a better et,tl -,:t. could nee here
be Pelrel. lie opposed the .S.SSSsnt measure because he be-
lieved it injurious tee n body of men whom, in the perfeemance
of their sacred duties, he looked upon en the hest friends of
their fellow-men. lie did not r.:TY,isider himself presumptuom
when lie stated that in eisposing this measure he was hiquenced
by still higher reolives, for he considered that if he voted for
the support of this measure ho teonia be sanctioning- the de-
secration of property devoted to the services of Aleel.gtity
Go:l.—s( Loud einem-111g. )
Mr. C. BUIL L E R said, that they haul had the happiness of
having heard that night twe eiovel arguments in support of
Church-rates, and perhaps their novelty arose fesen their hay_
ing been made use of by a new menther (the Hon. Member
for Lewes.) These nrgumettle were—first, that the Hree ehr-
able Member himself had a seat in the Houser etti, secondly,
that the majority of the signatures to the petitions presented
to. the House were in favour of Church-rates. He would. ttel-
vise the Honourable Member to learn to count reore accu-
rately before he again hazarded a celculation, fur he (Mr.
Buller) had looked into the authentic reports on this subject;
and found, from examination, that there were twice as many
petitions in favour of the Ministerial plan as had been pre-
sented altogether at the other side of the House. Amongst
those who objected to the proposed arrangements respecting
Church-rates, some objected to the plan itself and others oh.
jected to the proposed application of the funds capected to
be raised. appeared that the Honourable Member fur
Cupar had so worded his motion to put the first objection
out of view altogether, and to afford a full oppertunity
for the distinct discussion _of the latter. It always ap-
peared to him desirable to discuss any particular matter
separately, and still more desirable that the discussion should
be confined to the question in debate ; but it appeared
that some lion. Members found it impossible to keep their
mighty minds from ranging over every kindred topic eonnected
with the question in debate. The debates last night were
not confined to the question before the House, but embraced
every topic at an connected with the subject. He did not
think that much good had been done by turning the debate
on the amendment of the Hon. Member for Cupar into a
debate on the whole question. lis knew that Hon. Members
at the other side of the House entertained a nsVoit that any
property devoted to ecclesiastical purposes could not be ap-
plied to secular uses. But when they complained of turning
the property of the Church to purposes foreign from the
Church, what property did they speak of ? The present plan
did not purpose to take any of this property, but to
give an increased value to property already existing.
The Hon. Member for Cupar came forward with an amend-
ment which embodied his argument, and contended that they
had many prior claims within the Church which ought to be
satisfied before they attended to external claims, and that the
wants of the Church might first of all be supplied. He was
glad that the Hon. Member had brought that subject fully
under discussion, for he believed that such an opinion was
prevalent in many parts of the country, and that many men
who would wish to support the Government, and who felt an
interest in its success, were induced to oppose the present
measure from a mistaken feeling on this point. He did not
doubt that it would be fully proved that a delusion more gross
than this had never been attempted, and he was glad that the
Hon. Member had perilled this delusion upon the present dis-
cussion. As to the building of new Churches, when they
were built how did they propose to support them ? Would they
have new Church-rates, or would they have the former rate
in one place and a different system in another?—( Hear,
hear.) They certainly could not contemplate to make any
addition to the present amount of Church-rates, even suppos-
ing their propositions to be fully carried into effect.—( Hear.)
He could not agree that there was the slightest necessity for
new Churches in the metropolis. It was evident to any per-
son who took the trouble of making observations that not half
the churches were half filled. Some, certainly, were crowded
to excess, but it was owing to the attraction of some popular
preacher, and not from ally habitual desire in the parishioners
to attend Divine worship. It was not the inhabitants of the
parish, who earn. quietly together to derive consolation from
the pastoral care of the Clergyman, but a multitude drawn to-
gether from various quarters of the town to hear the sermon of
the preacher then in fashion. He would not ask if those per-
sons who might by chance be deprived of Church accommoda-
tion imitated the Covenanters of old, and sought for instruction
in the open air, nor would he demand if they took the trouble
of walking two or three miles to hear Divine service; but he
would inquire if they imposed on themselves the easy task of
going only two hundred or three hundred yards to some
Church which might lie invitingly open, with full accomo-
dation for hundreds. The plain fact was, that there was
but little religion in the hearts of the people. They pre-
ferred the gin shop to the House of God. Did Hon. Gen-
tieitsen suppose that by raising new Churches they could in-
duce the people to attend divine worship, when they habitually
deserted those which were already erected ? He recollected
a simple-minded man complaining of the vast number of gin-
shops which had been opened in all quarters of the metropo-
lis, and assigning as a reason why they were so much fre-
quented that a plentiful supply was not within the reach of the
unhappy beings whose thirst was so excessive. If pumps with
ladles were placed in frout of the gin-shops the people would
quench thou thirst, he supposed, with pure water, and the
giu-shops would be at once deserted. That opinion, every
one would acknowledge, was preposterous, and yet the recorn-
mesdation to build new Churches, in order to induce the people
to flock to them, was just as foolish. The population of
London at present was constantly varying, particularly of late
years; and to build a Church in a parish where a den:a id was
raised for it, simply because an increased population might
for the time be found there, would, in his opinion, be on.
wise and wasteful.---( Hear, hear, hear.) In a short time
the tide of concourse might flow elsewhere, and the Church
would, like so many of its fellows, be but of little use. Let
Honourable Gentlemen look to the state of London as a
proof of this statement. There were in the City 67 Churches.
Of these it was no exaggeration to assert, that not the four-
fifths were habitually attended by one hundred persons. The
decreased attendance was caused by the decrease of the popu-
lation. In 1790 the inhabitants of the city amounted to
140,000, while in 1821 the numbers only reached 56,000. At
the former period, those e ho carried on their commerce in the
city were accustomed to reside there, and their warehouses
and their habitations were under the same roof. In the pre-
sent day, they spent their business time only in the City, while
in the evenings and on the Sabbath they flocked to their
houses in the country or the environs of London. The pa-
rishes, therefore, were on the Sunday nearly deserted, and the
Churches, of course, but little frequented. To build new
Churches, under such circumstances, would exhibit a most
startling contempt of exiierinects, and any anticipations of
their being filled might prove as fallacious as those which at-
tended the Churches erected in the reign of Charles II A
simple plan ef supplying the place of fresh erections had been
been overlooked by Honourable Gentlemen opposite, which
hs should take the liberty of mentioning.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) Why ehould they not by time make up for the al-
leged want of accommodation ? Why should not divine
worship be performed more frequently in the Churches which
existed now, rather than erect others ? He did not
d.sire to make any change in the Sabbath, but he saw no ob-
jection to the service being repeated during the whole day, as
in Catholic countries, to accommodate the numbers or the con-
venience of the people. By this plan treble and quadruple
numbers could be accommodated, and the only additional ex-
pense would be the sums paid to a greater number of curates,
who must be employed. This plan was too simple and unex-
pensive to strike the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Hon.
Member for Kirkcudbright had last night referred to the want
of working clergy in the Church. In the metropolis many were
certainly required; but it would be strange if the large endow-
ments granted to the Church all over England were not ade-
quate to provide additional spirituel assistance, if necessary. The
best mode of ascertaining if these endowments were sufficient
was to calculate what were the relative values 9f the beneficem,
and the number of clergymen to whom they were committed.
The benefices in England and Wales might he stated, in round
numbers, to contain about 14,000,000 of parishioners. The
number of benefices amounted to 10,718. The average numb, r
of .parishioners in each, including Dissenters, would emou..t
to 12,089, exclusive of Dissenters to 1,026. Dr. Chalmers,
in his report, had laid down 2,000 or 3,000 persons as the
number to whose spiritual comfort a clergyman could well
attend. Now, taking the mean of these two numbers,
namely, 2,500, as the proper number, it would appear that
iii the Church of England there were twice as many bene-
ficed clergymen as there ought to be. The number of bene-
fices in some dioceses was really extraordinary. In Norwich
and Ely there were snore than could be found in the whole
of Scotland. In Norwich there were not less than 189, and
the average income was about 9001. The whole amount of
revenue was about 164,000/., and the number of parishioners
was 133,000. The average number of souls in each parish
was about 700, which gave 1/. ss. a soul, while in London
the average amounted to not more than from 2d. to 4d. In the
diocese of Ely the number of parishioners was 33;980, while
the revenue amounted to 41,580/., which gave 1/. 2s. 3d. a soul.
Its the revenues of the clergy it was clear there was no defi-
ciency, and of all professions that of the clergyman was the
cheapest. lie had his house and grounds ; and no other pro-
fession had so much leisure, and leisure that was profitably
employed; for they had, in addition to their livings, chapels
of ease, and other sources of emoluments, which added consi-
derably to their incomes ; and yet, from their own report,
they admitted that the average amount of their incomes was
3001. per annum. Now, this, he contended, was infinitely be-
yond the incomes of all other professions, because the expen-
diture attached to it was as nothing when compared with
others. With regard to his own profession, it was difficult to
ascertain the average amount. It had been stated that it did
not cover the expenditure; but, although he knew this was
the case in a great number of instances, still he did not think
it held good as regarded the average amount. But certainly
the average of all other professions did not exceed Ma a
year, while the profession of the Clergy, which was attended
with an expenditure that bore no proportion to the others, was
worth, by their own admission, 3001. per annum. Not q when it
was taken into consideration that the number of the Clergy far
exceeded the necessities of the Church, the intsomes, if the
benekes were reduced to a scale proportionat„ pa the mem-