The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 19, 1863.

1853, they would have to comply with formalities which
would take about three months, At that late period of the
session there was no lance of their being able to obtain
private bvitoWing Acts, and the proposition was that those
places shall have money advanced for the purpose of exe -
cuting those works, The bill before the house would, he
believed, meet the grievance complained of as far as was
possible. This bill would facilitate in all the distressed dis-
tricts the borrowing of money on the security of the rates,
even in those outlying places within the districts respecting
which a misapprehension appeared to prevail, Another ob-
jection raised to the bill was, that, it would not accomplish
all that was desired, and a complaint had been made that
no opportunity was afforded to the proprietors of property
within the district of taking the benefit of those loans. It
was a very different thing to Make inquiries into the policy
of lending public money to towns to be expended for sani-
tary purposes, from making an inquiry into the private
requirements of particular districts. It would not have been
seemly if commissioners had been sent to inquire into the
condition of oertaiA private property, and had specified
them in a report by name, and holding the owners up to
the public as persons who had neglected their property--
and, furthermore, he was not aware that any claim for
assistance had been put forward by them. The bill now
proposed was not intended as a panacea for all the evils
that had arisen out of the present unfortunate state of
things, and did not strike at the root of that great calamity
that had befallen this country, but he behoved its provi.
sions might be turned to good account, and it ought not to
be condemned because it did not accomplish all that was
desired. He was satisfied with the manner in which the
bill had been received in the cotton districts. It had been
there fully considered and the Central Relief Committee
had given it their most unqualified approbation. (Hear.)
That was an encouraging and satisfactory circumstance
and it was to be hoped that the working of the bill would
alleviate in some measure the misery that at present
existed, when it was considered that the 70,000 or 80,000
men that would be employed represented four times that
number in their families.

Mr. FERRAND complained that the right hon gen-
tleman had not dealt fairly with him in saying that when
the bill was introduced he (Mr. Ferrand) should oppose

it. All he did was to object to the bill being brought in
at half-past two o'clock in the morning. He regretted
the bill did not go further than it proposed. At a meeting
held in Manchester on Monday last the most alarming
statements were made, and in confirmation of what he said
in that house in April last, viz., that the operatives were
weary of idleness, were degraded into paupers, and that they
saw no chance of escape from their miserable condition ex-
cept in emigration. His remarks on that occasion were
treated cavalierly by the right hon. gentleman, and he re-
torted on him now that his arguments in moving the second
reading of tha bill were obsolete in reference to free trade.
After the statements that had been made in that house by
the right hon. gentleman with reference to Lancashire dis-
tress, the Government were bound to find employment in
England for the distressed operatives, or to supply them
with the means of emigrating. Mr. Rawlinson had reported
that a short Act extending the provisions of the Local Go-
vernment Act would give the means of employing all the
ablebodied operatives in Lancashire. He charged the Go-
vernment with having desired Mr. Baker, one of the factory
inspectors, to send in a report adverse to emigration ; and
he complained that Mr. Farnall's report had only been
placed on the table of the housethat morning—a time much
too short to enable them to become thoroughly acquainted
with recent facts in connection with this momentous ques
tion. At the Manchester meeting referred to, the speakers
appeared to apprehend as bad a state of things in the Lan-
cashire cotton districts this winter as it was last—that they
would have to provide for at least 400,000 persons, He
should like to know what s im of money would be asked
for during the session, because, so far from a million and
a half being sufficient, he was informed twice that sum
would be requisite; and he further wished the right hon.
gentleman to state what was to be done with the 300,000
persons who would get no relief from the public works.
If all those persons were to be kept in idleness, it would re.
quire four millions for their sustenance for the next year.
Distress prevailed in Ireland, Scotland, and other parts of
England, and he thought public money could be better ap-
plied than in buying rotten buildings at South Kensington
(Hear.) The Government had broken their promise to find
employment for the operatives if they continued peaceable
and well conducted. He doubted if the proposed public
works, such as making drains, were suitable employment
for factory operatives, who were accustomed to work under
cover in a high temperature. Out of door work, in incle-
ment weather, would carry them off by thousands. He sup•
ported a scheme of Government emigration, and called upon
her Majesty's Ministers to send out a large number of the
unmarried female operatives to our prosperous colonies.
That would be as act of justice to them, as the bill was to
the manufacturers themselves. He gave the bill his sup-
port, and should leave any alteration in its details to those
more immediately connected with the manufacturing dis-
tricts.

Mr. HIBBERT supported the bill, as being one in the
right direction. He approved of changing the support from
charity to a reward for labour. He referred to certain mia-
atatatnents that had been put forth in the Times, and said
that on the 30th of May neatly 300,000 persons received re-
lief, showing that great distress still prevailed in the cotton
districts, though there was an improvement from last Dec.
If the operatives were unfit for out-door employment in this
country, they had better not emigrate. The bill was not
without precedent, but he confessed he should be unwilling
to support it if it contemplated a grant of public money.
(Hear.) The hon. member for Devonport complained that
capitalists continued to build mills during this period of
distress ; but the circumstance not only benefited the dis-
tricts, but also showed that Lancashire men had faith in
the future of the cotton trade. (Hear.) They believed that
prosperity would again return, and they only desired the
aid of Parliament to tide over their difficulties until that
period. (Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE hoped that the legislation which
they were then pursuing would be considered wholly excep-
tional, and warned the house of the danger of encouraging
the expectation in the minds of operatives that, when their
employment was suspended by causes over which they had
no control, the Government would support them in com•
fort until their trade revived,
Mr. HENLEY approved of the general principle of the
bill, but he thought they would be embarking on a very
questionable course if they sanctioned the employment of
public money by corporate or other bodies in private enter-
prises. (Hear.) In that belief he should carefully watch
the progress of the bill when in committee.

Sir B LEIGHTON was of opinion that it was not de-
sirable that the Government should enter the money mar-
ket and underbid the regular investor. There was no reason
why the Lancashire towns should not borrow at 4 per cent.;
bat as it was desirable that they should pay punctually, an
inducement might be held out in a reduction of the rate (4
per cent.) for pr 'rapt payment, 5 per cent. as the penalty of
delay. In regard to emigration, he could not see whygreater
inducements should not be held out to the operatives to
emigrate into other countries; but that would never take
place so long as they were paid more for doing nothing in
the manufacturing districts than spade labourers earned in
the agricultural districts. In his own district, a labourer
with a family was paid 10s. a week ; in Lancashire he would
receive 12s. for doing next to nothing ; but in this, as in all
other cases, the commercial principle of demand and supply
should be allowed to regulate the price. _ _

Mr. COBDEN said that the hon. baronet had raised
a question which had a wider bearing than that which
he had given to it; he alluded to the wages that were ob-
tained in the manufacturing districts. That was one of the
difficulties which was experienced in meeting the present
distress. It met them in the case of emigration ; it met
them in the case of relief-works ; and it met them in the
case of migration from one part of the country to the other.
The population about which they were speaking had been
receiving a rate of wages in ordinary times larger than any
other body of labouring people in England, or probably
Europe. (Hear, hear.) He had taken some trouble to
ascertain what that rate of wages had been in ordinary
times, and what it was now. He found that at the former
period families had been earning from £2 to £3 a week,
some upwards of £4, and he was satisfied that the average
earnings had been 30s. a week when engaged in the cotton
manufactories. When, therefore, they had to deal with a
population which had been living in that state of comfort, it
was impossible suddenly to reduce them to the rate of wages
with which the agricultural population were content. It
would not be consistent with their health, or probably be safe
for the peace of the district to do so. (Hear, hear.) Con
cerning emigration he should not say a word in the interest
of the capitalists. His doctrine in the case of labour was,
that wherever it got its highest reward, that was its truest
destination. He should say nothing of the capitalist, and
his advice to the labourer was to go elsewhere if he could
benefit himself. But then came the question, would the
cotton operatives be benefitted by emigration ? When deal-
ing with the agricultural labourers, whose normal rate of
wages was 9s. or 10s.a week, no greater blessing could be be-
stowed than to transfer them to the wealthy regions of Aus-
tralia or America, where their labour was in demand, and
where their earnings were instantly doubled. But that did
not hold true in the case of the cotton spinner or weaver.
Send them to Austria or Canada, and when there they
would find no demand for their labour. There were no
cotton mills in either country, and, as a rule, nobody bane •
fitted himself by changing his business after he had arrived
at years of maturity. He might benefit himself by trans-
ferring his labour to a field of operations where there was
more demand for his skill, but not by changing his avoca-
tion. But, besides that objection to such a course at this
particular crisi., there was the still stronger objection that
all wholesale systems of emigration had proved not only
inoperative and disastrous, but also sometimes most cruel,

(Hear, hear.) We had in 1847 a wholesale system of emi•
gration. What happened ? Wretched people were hur-
ried away to Canada and America ; several thousands of
them died on the passage ; upwards of 10,000 of them died
when they landed in Canada and America; and such a cry
of horror came across the Atlantic that Canada and America
both passed laws p‘ohi-uiting their immigration in a desti-
tute condition. It was proposed now to send away the
c,°"4"l Population by like emigration ; but were we prepared
tsohoulr4ke provision for them when they landed on foreign
g at (Hear, hear.) It was cheap philanthropy for
„ewele:Lt.in Dorsetshire, or where they wrote letters from
see: —(taughter)—to say, 4, Send them away—let

them emigrate." But had the people themselves been con-
sulted?

Mr. FERRAND—I presentel several petitions on the
subject,

Mr, COBDEN continued—And still more, had the cost
been considered? (Hear, hear.) It would not be enough to
disembark them on the shores of America; they must also
be supplied with capital in the shape of houses, seed, tools,
and all other necessary equipment; but in that case the cost
would amount to a sum such as they had never contem-
plated, nor had entered into the calculations of the writers,
poets, and romancers of Dorsetshire and Wessex, who for-
warded it as a compendious receipt—(laughter)--for Lanca-
shire distress, and assailed with imputations the Lancashire
manufacturers, because they did not follow the prescription
and allow the people to emigrate. (Laughter.) He did not
wish to be misunderstood. He did not speak in the interest
of capital, nor did he say that emigration was a bad thing.
But he maintained it was not an expedient worthy of con-
sideration until they saw how much it would cost, and what
would be the effect when the operatives were landed on the
shores of America or Australia. (Hear, hear.) He had, in-
deed, always been of opinion that there was no specific which
could be called a complete remedy for the present distress.
The bill before them was certainly not of that character,
but by co-operation it might be made to mitigate the evil
under which they were suffering. It was only a permissive
measure, but he hoped that all the local authorities in the
cotton districts would feel that it was their duty also to do
their share, and would, to the fullest of the powers which
the measure placed in their hands. (Hear, hear.) He was
afraid that there was every reason to expect ►.hat next winter
would be worse than last. The savings of the operatives had
been spent, the credit of the small shopkeepers had been
exhausted, large public subscriptions could not be counted
upon, and he therefore feared the prospect was such as he
stated. Under these circumstances, the best that could be
done was to provide employment for the people, and to
mitigate the pressure of the rates upon the class of small
ratepayers by making such employment reproductive and
borrowing for long periods. (Hear, hear.)
Mr FERRAND, in explanation, said that he had at-
tended a meeting, at Manchester, when 27 delegates from
that district and Cheshire advocated emigration as the chief
remedy for their distress.

Sir G. GREY said that the hon. member was the only
one who really objected to the bill, and that his objections
were in several instances founded on misapprehension of its
provisions, The Government did not intend to undertake
the responsibility of providing employment for the unem-
ployed operatives, but were simply willing to assist the local
authorities in doing so. (Hear, hear.) He sincerely
hoped, if Parliament should grant the facilities, that advan-
tage would be taken of them in the distressed districts, and
that, charging the rates for the purpose, they would pro-
vide the people with such employment as thefr circum-
stances required. As to the question of wages, he thought
they should be on the same scale as similar work was re-
munerated in the part of the country in which it took
place; but, as a great portion of it might be performed by
task-work, the wages would be in proportion to the skill
and industry of the labourer. He quite concurred in what
had fallen from the hon. member for Rochdale concerning
emigration. The Government would, indeed, do wrong
to throw the slightest obstacle in the way; but for the
purposes of wholesome and useful emigration they should
have— first, people desirous to emigrate ; secondly,
people fit from age and physical capacity to labour at
the rough work of a colonist; and, thirdly, colonies willing
to receive them. (Hear.) It was said that a large sum was
likely to be sent from Australia in aid of emigraticn. If so,
the Government would not throw the slightest obstacle in
the way of the agents for those colonies in endeavouring to
induce people whom they thought would be useful to them
to emigrate; but any attempt on the part of the Govern-
ment to force emigration would, he believed, be not only
unadvisable, but prejudicial. (Hear, hear.)
Mr, SC ULLY also disapproved of wholesale emigration,
and urged that it was much more suitable to the condition
of Ireland than England.
Mr. BA ZLEY feared very much that certain apparent
indications of returning prosperity in the manufacturing
districts would mislead the public, and restrain the efforts
of the benevolent. But he could state with confidence to
the house, that the diminution in the numbers of those re-
ceiving relief was entirely owing to the joint influences of
emigration and the absorption of the operatives in employ-
ments altogether different from their accustomed pursuits.
The consumption of the raw material at the moment was
the most reliable proof that the cotton mills were still closed
to the operatives. In ordinary times the consumption was
50,000 bags a-week, whereas now it was only 5,000 bags.
It was said that new mills were being erected. Well, be
warned the house that it took three years to prepare a mill
for the manufacture of cotton ; and, therefore, the building
of mills at that moment has only indicated that the old
policy of the cotton districts still prevailed. He was of
opinion that the amplest provision ought to be made for
the coming winter; and while ho entirely approved of
the bill before the house, he could have wished that the
India and Colonial Departments had made an effort to pro-
vide a larger supply of the raw material. the house should
remember that the present proposal was irregular, and in-
consistent with sound economic principle.
Sir F. CROSSLE Y said his hon. friend the member for
Rochdale had asserted, as one reason why the distress would
be very severe during the coming wintar, that the subscrip-
tion lists had been closed. Now he should be very sorry
if such an idea were to get abroad, because the subscription
lists ought not to be closed, and he was fully convinced the
public would be willing to renew their subscriptions. He
quite approved of the bill introduced by the Government,
and he earnestly hoped the various localities would avail
avail themselves of its provisions. But at the same time it
should be borne in mind that the employment to, be ob-
tained under the bill almost entirely applied to the male
population, for females could not make roads or do the
other rough work which it contemplated.
The bill,was then read a second time; and in reply to
Mr. COBDEN,

Mr. VILLIERS named that day (Thursday) week as the
day on which the committee would be taken.

The house then went into committee of supply.
IRISH NATIONAL EDUCATION.

Sir R. PEEL proposed the vote for Irish education,
amounting to £306,663. The vote showed an increase of
£11,112 over the vote for last year, and it was owing to the
greater number of schools which were now open, and to the
increase in the salaries of those engaged in teaching.
Major O'REILLY then proceeded to denounce the model
schools which had been established in connection with the
National system. His principal objections to them were that
they were under the superintendence and patronage of the
central authorities, and that they educated children in large
numbers whose parents could afford to pay for their educa-
tion The hon. gentleman then quoted the case of Enniscor-
thy, where the number of children was 31, and the cost £'26B,
or over £8 per head, and the pupils were all children of
persons in good circumstances. He, therefore, called upon
the Government to put a stop to the system. The hon.
gentleman also alluded to some other cases, and compared
them with a large attendance of children at Roman Catholic
schools. He should, therefore, move the reduction of the
vote by £268, as the best method of obtaining the gradual
abolition of the schools he complained of,
Mr. BAGWELL opposed the amendment, which, though
possib'y just, was not generous.
Mr. MAGUIRE supported the amendment. They were
not the foes of education in Ireland, and he asked the hon.
member for Clonmel to banish the contrary idea from his
mind. He opposed the monopoly of education being given
to the Government. The model school at Cork would be a
failure, or, if a success, it would be to the ruin of the free
schools, He urged that some deference should be paid to
the Catholic hierarchy, who were opposed to the present
system of model schools.
Mr. P. URQUHART supported the reduction of the vote.

Colonel GREVILLE said the condemnation of the system
by the Protestant and Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland
was a proof that it did not give satisfaction.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND, as one of
the commissioners, had acted from a conviction that he was
doing the best for Ireland. Re traced the history and ope-
ration of the system, as opposed to that urged by its oppo-
nents. It had never been contended that the system was a
perfect one ; but it had worked substantial benefit to the
whole of the people of Ireland, who had accepted it as one
of the greatest blessings that had ever been conferred on the
country. Since January 1, 1861, 520 persons had come into
connection with the board, and there had been 136 applica-
tions for building grants, lie defied contradiction when he
said that during the whole of the long time these schools
had been established, not a single case of proselytism could
be charged against them. (near,
hear.) And as to the
objections which had been raised to the model schools he
contended that no comprehensive system of education ever
had been, or ever could be, established any where without
the assistance of model schools. The celebrated Dr. Doyle,
the Catholic Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin, in 1831, re-
commended the establishment of model schools ; and one of
the purest-minded and greatest men he had ever known, the
late Dr. Murray, the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, who
was one of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland
from the beginning, having been called upon by Cardinal
Fransoni to leave the board, wrote a letter to Rome in reply,
in 1839, in which he assured the cardinal that such a step
would be injurious to religion, and calculated to deprive the
people, for whose spiritual welfare he was responsible, of
education, and to throw them into the hands of proselytisers.
As to the charge that religious instruction was not given in
these schools, there were abundant time and opportunity
given in the ordinary schools for religious instruction daily;
but in the model schools there was, further, an imperative
rule, by which the pupils were absolutely prohibited from
attending any religious instruction except that of the deno-
romainnatthioenntaopwohieicdhhtihmesyelbf etloonthgeede.onTsihdeerartiigohnt
ohfonth.
egednentloe-
minational and separate systems of national education, and
maintained that neither was suited to the circumstances of
Ireland—(hear, hear)—and that the mixed system which
now prevailed was the best calculated to secure its ultimate
peace and prosperity,
(Hear, hear.)
The O'CONOR DON said the model schools had been
entirely unsuccessful, and what exceptional circumstances,
he asked, were there in Ireland that required their continu-
ance? On an average, every pupil cost the Government
£4 per head, which was a higher average than any of the
public and private schools of Engl9nd. The standard of
I education was t" liiial for the position in life of its reci-

pients. He called upon the committee to express by the
division their disapprobation of the interference of the State
with the education of the people.
Lord C. HAMILTON criticised the speech of the At-
torney-General for Ireland, and regretted that he had intro-
duced subjects beside the question before the committee,
viz., the maintenance of the model schools by public grants
of money.
Mr. BLAKE supported the amendment.
Mr. MONSELL also supported the amendment, and
contrasted the relative cost of the two systems.

Mr. LEEK° Y protested against the system of national
education in Ireland, because it was not founded upon
Scriptural truth; but, at the same time, he should abstain
altogether from voting on the present occasion,
The committee divided--
For the amendment
For the vote as it stood

Majority -84
Mr. HENNESSY moved that the chairman should re-
port progress.

Lord PALMERSTON hoped that, after the long discus-
sion which had taken place, the committee would proceed
with a single v te.
Mr. MONSELL thought that at half past 12 o'clock they
ought not to proceed further.
Sir R. PEEL said that the vote had been postponed from
a former evening on the und t.standing that it would be com-
pleted on that night.
The committee divided—

For reporting progress
Against it
Majority --79
Mr. HENNESSY appealed to Lord Palmerston not to
proceed, as the house would have to meet again at 12
o'clock.
Sii R. PEEL was ready to give any information sought
for on the vote; but he hoped the committee would go on.
Captain JERVIS said that a very important bill was
coming on after supply, and it would L.Jt be right to attempt
to discuss it at that hour of the morning.
Mr. HENNESSY moved that the Speaker leave the
chair.
The committee divided, when the motion was negatived
by 110 to 31.
On the motion of Colonel GREVILLE,
The Chairman was then ordered to report progress.
The Charitable Uses Bill passed through committee.
The Mutiny (East India) Act Repeal Bill was read a
second time.

Sir Robert Hitcham's Charity Bill was read a second
time.
Ruthin Charities Bill was read a second time,
Newcastle-upon-Tyne (St, Mary Magdalen Hospital)
Bill was read a second time.
The Militia Pay Bill went through committee.
The Land Drainage (Provisional Orders) Bill was passed
through committee.
The Marriages Registration (Ireland) Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Stipendiary Magistrates Bill was read a second
time.