The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-13 00:00:00

the Board would be all persons holding other situations,
and certainly no salary would be attached to them. With
regard to the other question be did not anticipate that the
Board would have any funds by which they could make
any allowance to the schools. If there should be any grant,
either from the general funds of the State, or locally, to
particular schools, he should propose to embody that pro-
vision in the Bill, which could form pert of the discretion
of the Board.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought he had not succeeded in
making the Noble Lord comprehend his question. It was
unimportant whether the grants were made to schools or
school-houses—at present the grants were made to
school-houses; but the schools were conducted on
schools
certain
principles. lie wished to ask whether the Board could
make grants either to schools, or for the building of
in which any or no form of religion might be taught ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could only give the same
answer as before. It was immaterial, as the Hon. Metes
ber had said, whether for schools or school-houses. tie did
not consider any grant which was allowed to be made would
be applied to schools or school-houses, unless part of it was
applied to the schools built by the National Saciety, or
the British and Foreign Society. If there were any other
schools, it would be necessary to state that on bringieg
the Bill on the subject.
Mr. WYSE said the Hon. Member opposite had re-
ferred to a Society with which be (Mr. NV.) and several
other Members were connected. Whatever opmione iadi-
vidual might have expressed, the Society had made no
declaration.—( Hear.)
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN expressed his entire concurs-me°
in the scheme submitted by the Noble Lord. His wily
regret was that the contemplated grant was so rniserahl
small. To talk of the 30,0001. to meet the deficience o
education in this country did seem ridiculous ; it appe-a;
in evidence before the Committees of this House, up_
ported by the testimony of private individuals, that in ninny
parts of the country one-fifteenth of the population did not
receive education, whereas there ought to be at least ore-
seventh of the population at school. Arriving, therefore,
at the conclusion that not one half of the children were
educated at all, to say nothing of the imperfect education
given to others, he could not conceive that the grant of
30,0001. would have any beneficial effect. He hoped that
part of the scheme would be re-considered, and that when
the estimates came before the House the larger grant
would be proposed. As an Irish Member, he should
cheerfully agree to a vote of 200,000/.—( Hear. hear.)
Mr. G OUL BURN presumed, before the Noble Lcril
called on the House to coma to any vote with teapot
this alteration. ho would be prepared to lay on the tablhe of
the House a definite rule, by which the Board would tire'
guided in the distribution of these funds. If this plan was
to achieve an extensive change in the mode of edueathosr
in this country, it could not be reasonable to expect tilt
House to come to any opinion without having distinctly
laid on the table the principles on which they meant to wit.
Lord DUNGANNON wished to put a question to the
Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had stated that a greet,
but not to the same amount as formerly would be made to I
the British and Foreign School Society. He wished to
ask- whether or not it is intended that this should ba the lest I
year of any grant whatever ?—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL'S reply was quite inaudible in the
gallery.
Lord SANDON understood that the Normal school si
was to conduce towards religions as well as secular instrue.
tion.—( Lord John Russell expressed his assent.) He un-
derstood that in some way or other it was to be connected is
ith the Church of England. The point he wished to as-
certain was, if there was to be a system of religious instruc-*
Lion in the Normal school, what guarantee was there for the
sort of religious instruction to be afforded—whether it
would be connected with the religion of the Church or
not—or whether the guarantee existed in the appointment
of the Privy Councillors? That point had not been clea:ly
described, and it was most important that it should be ascei-
taieed.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he had taken
this early opportunity of stating to the House the general
views which Government entertained in consequence of
the misconception which had prevailed, he wished before
the House consented to any vote that it should be in.
formed of the exact course which was intended to be pur-
sued. Now, the papers which he had presented informed
the President of the Council of the wish of her Majesty
that a Board should be formed, and declared the general
condition upon which he would undertake it. lie con-
ceived it would be proper that the President of the Coun-
cil should meet the other Members of the Committee,
and that they should draw up something on which this
House was to proceed. The Hon. Member for Liver-
po.,l asked how the instruction in the doctrines of the
Church of England was to be conducted. That was ono of
the points on which the Board, when it met, would have
to deliberate. He should suppose there certainly must be
a Clergyman of the Church of England to superintend
instruction in the doctrines of the Church of England.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said it was necessary that this
point siieuld be perfetly clear, and that the 110:
should have distinct information—( Cheers)—hecause if
they made a vote merely en the understanding that,
here-
after tho Board was to decide what principles should go-
veris ail education in the principles of the Church of
England, they were giving the widest discretion to the
Board. The proper time for discussing this, no
doubt, would be when the proposal was made fur.
a grant of money, and it would be perfectly open to this
side of the House, if the explanations were not sufficient,
or the discretion too wide, to take the course which he (Lahr
R. Peel) should take, and reserve the power of ob-
jecting to the grant altogether.—(hear, lifeir.) He
did not expect that the Noble Lord would have entered 1
into any explanation of the views of Government, because I
the whole of the notice which he had given was to present
papers relating to education. Ho (Sir R. Peel)
tainly was surprised at this mode of proceeding. He was
mite afraid that his plan was open to wider objections
than oar the niece statement of the Noble Lord it might ,
appear to he, from the assent given to ikbysomegentlemen
who had entertained views with respect to general educa-
tion from which he totally dissented.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord proposed to constitute a Board exclusively of
persons in official situations. If theieevere to have Lee
superintending power over the education of the country
he should entertain serious doubts on the subject.
(Hear, hear.) He should object to giving to a Board corn
posed exclusively of official men, and therefore of party
men, any superintendence over general education,
( Hear, hear.) One Honourable Member, in giving his
assent to the plan, said that it was entirely satisfactory to
him. Another lion. Member also said that it wns satis-
factory to him, but spoke of some grant of 200,000/a
year to be placed under the controul of this Board. He
(Sir Robert Peel) must say that a grant amounting to
that sum must imply on the part of the Board a controul.
ing power over the education of this country.—( Cheers.)
The Noble Lord. its the first part of his speech, mentioned
an objection which he ( Sir Robert Peel) never heard
before. He seemed to labour under en apprehension
which, so far as he (Sir Robert Peel) knew, was
totally without foundation.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord . appeared to entertain an apprehension that
there was a design on the part of somebody in lb e
state to interfere with the freedom of education. He ape_
peered to be under the apprehension that there were pee_
sons who intended to propose that the Established Church
should have absolute power over the education of thee
people, and that the people, though dissenting from the.
Established Church, should be compelled to receive its in..
struction. Ile could only say for himself, that he would.
oiler the most strenuous opposition to any attempt to vitae.
late the perfect liberty of education. At the meeting t
he was present at, this was contended for, three
the Members of the Church of England shoeid
enjoy that perfect liberty of education whichthe.tyo
insist
ee
st i
content others should enjoy. This they also claimed for
themselves the right to do, namely, by voluntary votes ba
form schools in connection with the Church, and
upon it as an essential condition of education in those
schools that the children instructed in them should he
brought up in the principles of the Established Church.
(Cheers.) He apprehended the Noble Lord would not
dissent from that. The members of the. Established
Church claimed for themselves that right which the Ro-
man Catholics exercised—which the Dissenters of every
denomination exercised, and which it was perfectly right
they should exercise, viz, that education being free' and
the liberty of instruction having been established, the
members of the Church of England should enjoy that
liberty for themselves. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
At the meeting which he attended those were the principles
contended fur. The Noble Lord appeared to apprehend I
that the House of Commons were inclined to restrict the
vote for education exclusively to instruction on certain
principles. Now, he apprehended that when the Noble
Lord last year proposed a grant of 20,0001. for education,
it was perfectly well known to the House of Commons that
instruction upon the principles of the Established Church
was not a necessary condition. He (Sir Robert Peel)
must say, after the assent that had been given to that
grant, and after the little opposition it received, he thought
those apprehensions which the Noble Lord.seehmeeadotoorsientoi-f
mate to-night, were rather groundless, for in
did the
to the.
the lust year the House of Coinmeoans
certain conditions,
hadeth
either
raised
to give public money for the
prepared, on
construction of school-houses,
not a necessary part.
of the Established Church was
grant this year,
da
in which school-houses exclusive education in the doctrines
the
the apprehension in t
Last year that was done,il
founded on similar principles, Naobil e thereforeLord'e• adt,
there was an intention toiagrefuasre
Person to compel educ -
sign on the part of staill
What
were'
Noble Lords apprehension he
the grounds of the o
tion on the
were eves. heard such apprehensions- enter-
principles of theanNy Etstablished Church ?
knew not, but n
e renehter and cricket' " Hear, hear."), • . before.__,
• tarnen
I ed to understand from the Noble Lord was
What he wished
this—whether this ; Board of Privy Councillors and persons.
official cuthority were to discharge the functions au,
having
Treasury had hitherto di charged, with regard to the
propriation of those fundsy The principles of grants lie'
been this—to encourage that which, alter all, it was the
object to encourage, viz., voluntary local contributions for
the purposes of education.---( Hear, hear.) That Was the
principle that had pervaded their grants. They had said__
We will not take on ourselves the charge of edueetton,
but we will encourage others locally interested in the lase..
servation of peace—interested in the protection of property-
but above all, interested in the moral improvement of
their
fellow.croatures—we will encourage them, by grants from
time to time, to exert themselves, proportioning our
ad-
vances to the sum to be received.—( Hear.) He
they did not mean to depart from that principle ;• but
they adhered to it, did the Noble Lord the
Treasury was to have the distribution of that portion
of the funds, or that the Board was to discharge
the duty performed by the House ? In an ansv.er
which the N stile Lord gave to a question proposed to him
he spoke of there being a vote for the British and
E:lucation Society: the Noble Lord said nothing of: lgtl
tional education.—( Some one here interrupted the Ri,rt.
Hon. Baronet by an observation which was not bear,i-in-
the gallery.) If it were an unintentional omission, he ```
very glad of it, because lie hoped, if there were to be a tials
lic vote, the National Society would not be excluded --
the benefit of it. The questionwhich he would wish to.
sk
upon that head was this, whether or no the Treasury was
to exercise the control over the appropriation of the
were,
or whether the appropriation of the funds was to be placed