The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-08 00:00:00

Noble Lord who had spoken last ( Lord Howick ) ; that Noble
Lord frankly told the House that if intimidations were not to
be put down by other means, which he considered more ra-
tional and English, then, and not till then, would he vote
for the Ballot.—( Hear.) Hon. Members opposed to the
measure might talk as they will, the vote after all was the
substance ; and he believed that if the landlord were deprived
of the power of knowing how his tenant voted, he would care
very little about the matter. For his own part he held, and
did not hesitate to avow it, that there was a great deal more
corruption in returning Members to Parliament, since the pas-
sing of the Reform Bill than before it. In fact he believed
intimidation to be the child of the Reform Bill. True it
might be said that it existed to some extent before the passing
of that Act.—( Hear, hear. ) He granted that in the little
towns in schedule A intimidation had existed to a small
extent as compared with the more recent times.—( Hear. )
The Noble Lord seemed to think that a great im-
improvement in respect to intimidation had been effected ; so
also, indeed, with respect to bribery. He ( Mr. C. Buller)
appealed to the experience of Hon. Members if such were the
fact ? He (Mr. Buller) would pass over the Noble Lord's
remarks respecting the effect the Vote by Ballot had in pro-
ducing the French revolution in 1793. The constitution of
the Government of France at the time, the Noble Lord ought
to have borne in mind, though essentially democratic in prin-
ciple, had not had time to develope itself when another form of
Government was adopted. It was the opinion of many Hon.
Members hostile-to the Ballot, that it would tend to strengthen
democracy. He was of a different opinion, and believed that
the aristocracy of England would hold their power for a long
time if they maintained it on democratic pr►nciples as trustees
for and leaders of the people.—( Hear.) For the very thing
which tended to destroy Legislative influence was the brute
force of property, and that feeling engendered by it which
held up the gentry as the tyrants ruling over the people, and
not as their national leaders.--( Hear.) Again, he firmly
believed that the Vote by Ballot would increase the influence
of moderate political feelings.—( Hear.) Which party. lie
would ask, gained most in numbers at the last election ? Why
the Tories to be sure.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition. )
The Whigs, or Liberal Members fell off, but the Radicals in-
creased.—(Renewed cheers from the Opposition.) He did
not mean to reflect upon, much less to insult Ministers by saying
this—he did not mean for a moment to say that they, merely
to keep their places, would change their opinions; ho would,
however, wish them to change a systom which had for its ob-
ject the drawing away of men of moderate and calm views from
the great council of the nation.—(Hear.) He would be
ashamed to go back to his constituents if he were one of
those who refused to give them the protection so loudly called
for; he should look upon himself as the demagogue of yore,
who deserted his compatriots in the field to which his fatal
counsels had impelled them.—( Cheers. )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER commenced
by observing., that the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C.
Buller) had set forth that corruption had more increased
since the passing of the Reform Act, and that intimidation
was the child, the offspring of that measure. With the late
elections at Shoreham and Aylesbury before the Hon. Mem-
ber, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was certainly
surprised at the remark. As a supporter of the Reform Bill,
he denied the justice of the Hon. Member's allegation, and
he appealed to those Hon. Gentlemen who supported that
measure, if that corruption which they sought to dctroy
was the child and consequence of the Reform measure. The
argument of the Hon. Gentleman reminded him (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) of the remark of the philosopher,
who said there was no adultery in a certain country, because
all the women in it were common.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
He further denied that the Hon. Gentleman had represented
justly the sentiments of his Noble Friend the Secretary at
War, when he said that his Noble Friend had argued that
the French revolution was superinduced by the Ballot.
He confessed that he discussed this question with the
greatest difficulty, because he was opposed to those Hon.
Members with whom he had been in the habit of acting, and
in whose opinions he generally coincided. He agreed with
his Hon. Friend the Member for London, who had intro-
duced his motion in so able a manner, that this was a ques-
tion which required the greatest consideration of the House.
--(Hear, hear.) Among the constituency which he re-
presented, there had not been more than twenty or thirty of
them who had on a former occasion expressed a wish for the
Ballot, but subsequently the mass of them had become con-
verts to the Ballot—( Hear, hear)—and they had become so in
consequence of the bribery and intimidation which existed,
and upon these grounds it was that a change of the system
was necessary. Still his opinions were unchanged, not be.
cause he objected to the Ballot, not because he did not think
it his imperative duty to put down corruption or intimidation ;
not because he did not wish to pay every attention to the
opinions of his constituents, whom he very much respected—
but because he doubted if this would be the proper remedy for
the evils which existed.—( Hear, hear.) No person could have
more at heart the putting down intimidation and corruption
than he had; therefore it was not the object, but the means
by which it was to be effected, that he differed with his Hon.
Friends. With regard to the Ballot, what would it effect,
supposing it to be made as complete as his Hon. Friend the
Member for London desired ? Would it not, then, leave the
landlord the means of so circumventing his tenants as to
make him sure of having their votes ?—( Cries of " Oh !")
Suppose the system to be tried ill Ireland, and the landlord
was an Orangeman, all he would have to do would be to make
a selection of tenants who were also Orangemen, and they
would naturally support the landlord, and also use their in-
fluence with their neighbours, which renders the Ballot under
such a system irresistible, if gentlemen, on either side, to
secure their election, were to make use of it, and no punish-
ment could ensue. Again, if a landlord or master manufac-
turer had any doubt as to the way his men might vote, he
might say to these gentlemen, " I wish you to abstain from
voting;" and this was not provided against by the Ballet,
so that corruption and intim►dation would still exist. His
opinion was, that if 'the House had shown a greater readi-
ness to punish it, and disfranchised those boroughs which were
found guilty of corruption, and a greater earnestness in fol-
lowing out such punishments, it would have had the desired .
effect. _ _ _

Mr. GROTE being loudly called for from all parts of the
House, rose to reply, and said that he could congratulate the
friends of the Ballot on the course which the debate had
taken on this occasion, when he recollected the observa-
tions on other occasions, and the altered tone of his Majesty's
Ministers--(Cheers)—and the manner in which his Hon, and
Noble Friend the Member for Northumberland, had met the
question. They had placed their opposition to it not on the
ground of principle, for their conclusions were the same as
those who supported the Ballot, although their premises were
totally different.—(Cheers.) He contended that the argu-
ments which he had advanced had beet► entirely untouched,
not even by the Hon. Member for Evesham, who, it was said,
was the representative of Toryism.—(Cheers.) When the
principal points of which he complained had not been contra-
dicted, namely, the evil existing and the necessity of a remedy_
being applied, it appeared to him that it, was only a question of
time between those who supported the Ballot and his Majesty's
Ministers. He, therefore, felt assured that Hon. Gentlemen on
the Treasury benches would support it, when they found that
corruption and intimidation still existed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained,
and said that his arguments had been the same on that occasion
as when the question was before debated.
Lord HO WICK said in explanation, that his arguments
had been founded on precisely the same grounds as when he
opposed a similar motion in 1835 ; but if he found corruption
and intimidation still continue to exist, he would not say that
he should not change his opinion.
The gallery was then cleared for a divi.ion
For the motion ln
Against it
Majority

Mr. HARDY moved for-lea;e to bring in a Bill to prevent
bribery and corruption at the election of Members of Par-
liament.

Mr. HUME hoped the Bill embraced all substantial evils.
He trusted the Hon. Member had inserted a clause against
what was called " head money," which was as great a species
of bribery and corruption as could be practised, whatever it
might be nominally. He trusted that if the lion. Member had
not inserted such a clause, he would not fail to do so.

Mr. HARDY was of opinion that his Bill would be found
to contain the most effective mode of preventing bribery and
corruption that had as yet been devised. He believed the Ballot
would be-unavailing in correcting the grievances.
Mr. O'CONNELL said a great part of the Hon. Mem-
ber's speech was in direct opposition to the vote which he
had just given.—( A laugh.) The Hon. Member (Mr.
Hardy) had just voted for the Ballot who was now describing
it as unavailing to prevent corruption. The Hon. Member
was making the antende honorable. Ho was very much
obliged to the Hon. Member for his rote. He would prefer
at all times having his vote to having his speech, since he
must make his selection.—( A laugh.) He (Mr. O'Connell)
considered it was a mockery in this measure that all should
turn, not upon the principals, but upon the agents of the
principals.—The • principals themselves should be examined
before the Committees of inquiry into bribery. The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Hardy) appeared to have a full knowledge
of the subject, and to be acquainted with bribery in all its
ramifications.—( A laugh.) So far the subject could not be
entrusted to better hands, or to one mere competent to detect
bribery in all its shapes. He must call upon him, however, to
make his Bill retrospective, and to make it affect all the
Members of that House who had been guilty of bribery already.
Mr. ROEBUCK suggested that the Bill should be made
to declare that any man who was proved guilty of having cor-
rupted was incapable of sitting any longer in that House.
Mr. HARDY was ready to insert a clause to such an
effect. He would defy the Hon. _ Gentleman to prove that
he (Mr. Hardy) had ever been guilty of bribing.
Mr. ROEBUCK had not meant to insinuate anything of
the kind ; but if the cap fitted, ho could Lot help it.—( A
laugh.)
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP rose to move for a return of the
number of Commissions issued under the Whig Administra-
tion. He believed that the expense occasioned by such coin-
missions had been between 700,000 and 800,000 pounds.
These were strange doings for an " Economical Government."
—( A laugh.) He would direct the attention of the House to
the expense of paying the Revising Banisters. It had been,
up to 1835, inclusive, 141,5801 He wondered what the
form-Bill had cost in printing ?—(A laugh.) There had been
between forty and fifty Commissions issued since the Whigs
took office in 1830.
Mr. T. B A RING said as to the Record Commission, to which
the ciallElTlt Colonel had alloded it was necessary to furni,h
FPPrillts of the Commission for referenco.—( Hear, hear.)
The expenses ef the Commission had been 485,0001. ;
gut the Gallant Colonel made no outcry against the sum
of Q40,00a, which had been incurred by former Govern-
Meats for a similar purpose.—( Hear.) The Gallant Colonel
enumerated several things as Commissions, which were in