The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-07 00:00:00

EVEN ING EDITION.

sponsible instruments ; but it differed from every other
prerogative in this respect, which he did not think
his Noble and Learned Friend had carried sufficiently
,in his mind—it was a grace to be exercised by the Crown, not
growing out of any right existing in the subject. It was for
lthe Clown to extend grace an I pardon wherever the Crown
thought it right to do so. He laid down that position advisedly.
Every free-born subject had a right to claim what the law gave
him ; but when he was under the visitation of the law, then he
had to depend on the bounty and pleasure of the Crown. If
the Noble and Learned Lord referred to Blackstone, he would
find that position laid down as he had stated it ; and the Noble
and Learned Lord could not mention one instance in which the
. Crown had been arraigned for exercising the prerogative of
%mercy, although perhaps charges had been made for the refusa
to exercise. The only complaint that he recollected to have
been made, at all similar to the present, was that of Junius
against the Duke of Grafton for having pardoned a murderer.
But he believed he was justified in saying that this was a
novel attempt of the Noble and Learned Lord to arraign the
conduct of the Crown in the exercise of the prerogative of
mercy ; and he did not think their Lordships would be disposed
to commit themselves, even on the high authority of his
Noble and Learned Friend, by adopting as unprecedented a
course as that now proposed. He did not think that twenty of
their Lordships could lay their hands on their hearts and say
they had read the evidence relating to the subjects on which
the Noble a :d Learned Lord had asked them to pass resolutions
It was very long, and although he had looked at it once or
twice; he did not think he perfectly understood it. The Noble
and Learned Lord then referred to the case of Connor,
and observed that Judge Moore had stated that he
had never had any peace of mind from the mo-
ment he passed sentence on Connor. There were peculiar
)
circumstances connected with that case, and Judge Moore had
stated he was airaid justice had not been done, for Connor had
been found guilty en the evidence of men whom ho did not
'believe on their oaths. The Noble and Learned Lord (who
was moist imperfectly heard in the gallery) then defended the
course that had been adopted with respect to Gahan and Rey-
nolds, and concluded by expressing a hope that their Lordships
I would not agree to the resolutions which had been proposed.
Lord RODEN thought the Noble and Learned Lord who
had just sat down seemed to be unacquainted with the proceed-
ings of the Committee, and it might be convenient if he shortly
stated to their Lordships the course that had been adopted by
that Committee with respect to their Report. It had been
desired, by somednembers of the Committee, that alonger Report
should be made, btu that was relinquished, in consequence of the
s °luminous nature ofthe evidence—the Noble and Learned Lord
havlngededged himself to brin gforw.ard that portion relating to the
administration of justice. Be (Earl Roden) was anxious that
the Committee should express a desire to re-commence their
labours in the next session ; but the majority of the Committee
had overruled him, and it was agreed to leave it to their Lord-
ships. But he deeply felt that they had only half sifted the
subject, and that much more important matter relative to the
causes of crime in Ireland yet remained untouched. That the
Noble and Learned Lord (Plunket) had not read the evidence
was his own f ult, inasmuch as he had been member of the
Committee from the beginning. For bringing on the subject
the Noble and Learned Lord deserved the thanks of the empire.
He (Earl Roden) had brought forward the motion for inquiry
en the 21st March last, from no party feeling—with no politi-
cal object—but simply from a desire to place the truth
regarding his unhappy country before the world. Now he be.
lieved that the details which had been disclosed were not to be
surpassed in importanc by any that had ever been brought be-
fore i'arliament. lie trusted that the people of England—
the middling as well as the upper orders—would read the evi-
dence, from which they wouldlearn the true condition of Ire-
land—instead of going by the accounts of shameless libels on
the Magistracy of the country.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Marquis ( Normaliby) had stated that none but trivial cases had
been visited with mercy, and never but on mature considera-
tion. This the evidence would sufficiently disprove At.
illullingar, six men liberated had been . shortly after
re-committed, and two had been transported; and just
Le show what had been the result of the Noble Marquis's
" experiment," a man who was committed for two years in
1834 and liberated—was, before the expiration of the two years,
tried, convicted, and executed for murder.—(Hear, hear.)
Truly, indeed, might he say that the history of the Noble
Marquis's Vice Regal Government had been marked by fears of
sorrow and by scents of blood. " Mercy :"—it did not deserve
tle name, for lenity to murderers was cruelty to the peaceful
and loyal subjects of the Queen.—(Hear, hear, hear.) A most
respectable Magistrate of twenty years' standing had stated
that the petitions to the Lord Lieutenant, had generally been got
up by the Popish Priests, and were often false in their state-
ments. The resolutions of the Noble and Learned Lord had
been objected to as criminatory. Why, if the cap fitted, let it
be worn by the party deserving it. He trusted that their Lord-
ships would pass these resolutions as a warning to future Lord
Lieutenants of Ireland. He could not conclude without express-
ing his high opinion of the honourable manner in which the Gentl-
emen who had appeared before the Committee had given their
evidence, connected as many of them were with the Govern-
ment. —( Hear. hear.) He feared that he had too often wearied
their Lordships on this subject, battling it as he had done over
) and over again, but hoped his labours were now drawing to a
) close. " Magna est veritas et prevalebit."—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of NORMANI3 Y —Magna est veritas indeedU
but the Noble Earl should quote his own evidence correctly.
The case of the man he alluded to as having been discharged,
and then executed for murder in 1836—was not one of those
summarily disposed of.
The Earl of RODEN—Yes, but it was done on Memorial—
virtually the same thing.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Marquis NORMANBY—After full consideration I
doubt not.
Lord HA THERTON felt bound to bear the most favourable
testimony to the ability and integrity displayed by the witnesses
who had beon before the Committee.—(Hear.) He con-
scientiously believed that if the first two or three resolutions of
his Noble and Learned Friend were carried—especially as to
the challenging juries—and if they were acted upon, nothing
could tend more to alienate the confidence of the people of
Ii eland from the administration of justice. It had been found
that the practice of setting aside juries for religion was so com-
mon that Lord Wellesley's Government, had he remained long
enough in office, would have altered the rule. For the regu-
lation which had since been adopted there was high authority,
and the testimony of Mr. Cahil, a gentleman who, notwith-
standing the vituperation which had been lavished on
him by the Noble and Learned Lord, was admit-
ted to be a man not only of ability but integ-
rity.—(Hear, hear, hear, from Lord. Brougham. ).._
The setting aside of Jurors was of common occurrence, in
proof of which he might refer to the different Assizes in 1830
and 1834. As to the instruction given by the Attorney-Ge-
neral on this subject, it was important to refer to Mr. O'Logh
leg's own understasadin,, on this point. He said that lie intro-
duced the rule that the Crown Solicitor should not set aside
any gentleman returned by the Sheriffs on account of his reli-
giousor political opinions. A great deal of stre. s hail been laid
on the mode in which Mr. Kemrais discharged these instruc-
tions. The Noble and Learned Lord stated that Mr. Kemmis
disapproved of publicans serving on Juries. He was asked,
" Would you not in any new law exclude publicans from sitting
on Juries ?" His reply was, " No, I would not, because some
might be proper persons, others would not." Mr. Kemmis
was asked, " Do you know what the general opinion of
the population of the country is with respect to the
administration of justice, as compared with their opinion
formerly ?" He replied, " I think the effect is, the lower
class of people have greater confidence in Juries, be-
cause they see the crown now never set any body aside." And
Mr. Gale stated his perfect conviction that the rule was ope-
rating beneficially, and that the number of convictions had been
increased by the result. If the plan were carried out to ex-
clude persons who were actuated by political motives, the result
would inevitably be that they would exclude persons of one re-
ligious character; and greater mischief could not be effected
than by setting aside Roman Catholics, for it would induce
them to set aside Protestants. He would ask their Lordships
whether on the face of the evidence on this subject they could
adopt conclusions of a contrary character ? Had he been aware
that it was the intention of the Noble and Learned to take the
sense of the House on this proposition; he should have consi-

dered it due to the pu.vernmencrto the public, and to

the cause of justice to have called o the,

xiinesses. He was

confident tltai there was nothing more likely to produce a mis-
chievous effect on the confidence which the policy of the G
verument had been winning than the adoption of resolutions of
the kind now proposed. But it was said that prisoners had now
a greater chance of escape than formerly. Ile believed that to
be the fact, and that the coLfidence of acquittal if innocent,
was much more beneficial than when they had nothing before
them'but despair. Nothing was more likely to win the con-
fidence of the public than the course recently adopted.
How difrerent had been the course former:y pursued with re-
gard to the Roman Catholic population. A prisoner was
brought into a Court of Justice, and saw seated oa the bench
a Judge notorious for entertaining strong political opinions.
lie was arraigned by an Orange Crown Counsel, who was ac-
tively employed in rejecting from the Jury every person who
would be likely to feel the least sympathy with him or with his
class. Was it not natural that such a person should feel, and
that his connections who thronged the Court, shou'd also join
in the opinion, that he was broughtfi:rward for immolation, and
of for justice ? A happy change had now talteq place
bus the effect of his Noble Friend's resolution would be to
make ;hem take a retregade sep, and to destroy the confidence
of the ii,:man Catholics in the proper administration of jus-
tice. With :egard to the question of recognizances that had
so fully been answered by his Noble and Learned Friend rear
I,im that he flit! not feel called upon to trouble their Lordships
further on the subject. 11. e, would merely refer them to the

evicrence of Mr. Ket-nmis as ful;y explaining-the reason why re-
cognizances were less frequently estreated in Ireland than
in England.—(l-fear, hear.) With respect to the case of
Cahan it was not necessary. for him to say much,
becatise it seemed to him that no imputation could be cast on

his Noi,!e Friend as regarded that case. It was ut erly im-
po,ible that he could suffer a sentence to be executed against
a man, when a person convicted, on precisely similar evidence,
of a similar offence, had, on the report of the Judge who tried
tie ease, been pardoned—especially when it was considered
that the Attorney and Solicitor-Generals had discovered dis-
crepancies in the evidence The case was between Chief Jus-
tice O'Doherty and Sir Michael O'Loghlen, and he must say
that, looking attentively at the case, he thought the judgment
i f Sir M. O'Loghlen the sounder of the two. chief Justice
O'Doherty seemed to think he was injured or ill-used.—( Hear.)
he could cot but contrast his evidence with that given by Sir
M. O'Loghlen, and he thought that :der a Judge had sen-
tenced a fellow-creature to death it ought not to be matter of
regret to him that circumstances enabled the sentence to be
remitted.—(Cheers.) mitted.—(Cheers. ) With regard to the liberations from gaol
he must admit that he disapproved of those liberations, but
three years had been suffered elapse, and no hint of any cen-
sure had been iv
to in that Housegonen,and when the subject had been alluded
had heard his Noble aan L former occasion he certainly thought he
his Noble Friend,
and
after
Friend defend the conduct of
all, although he had too great a
respect for the prerogativeesreof the Crown to attempt to inter-
fere with it, and as three
was no ground for the resyoluatrionhsad elapsed, he really felt there
pro b Learned Friend.—( Cheers.) p y his Noble and
Lord STUART DE DECIES roseb amid loud cries of ques-
ticn. He said that few Irishmanthearielfohrade h
eantroupspotedrtutbnaittyboef
speaking during this debate, and
might :ie'permitted to address their Lordships.A great deal had
been sale: about the due adminismtraantnieenr:j
paions—
stice, but it was
necessary to consider the habits,
overnoraj:se
meet with the
the prejudices of the people over whom ti
av
ce
tn,
in order that the administration of mightjustiee_.
Far, conteuipi .•
respect and confince of the public.
course pursued by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of --ta' mg
the
justice with mercy, he must say that he thought that erur,ertini!
most conducive to the due administration of justice in Ireland
All the cases brought before the Committee were necessarily of
a partial character. He remembered the Noble and Learned
Lord, when speaking of the Judges of Malta, said the Ju ig„ ..
the Provinces had naturally differences with the Government--
be was sorry to say that Ireland was no exception to the general
rule—what reason then to wonder that Chief Justice Doherty
should be complainant and his Noble Friend defendant ? The
ease of Gahan was not in his opinion a case of law or a Judge's
sZase—it was a question of state policyc and one very properly for
his Noble Friend to decide. Suppose the two men had been
transported upon the very same evidence upon which Judge
Moore vecommended that Connor should be pardoned ?—sup-
...

...... tr.A.V
pose the people of Ireland had seen Connor walking about while
the other twowere under transportation, w ould it have made them
more in love of justice ? The year 1836 was peculiarly a year
of peace—it was commenced by the pardoning of 94 Orangemen,
in the hope that gratitude for su .11 a large measure of mercy
would induce their compeers to avoid any violation of the law.
He had never heard that act of clemency characterised as an
abuse by the Noble Lords opposite—, n the contrary, the Noble
Marquis received the commendation of even the Carlton Club
itself. That which was an act of gnat prudence and consum-

mate wisdom in Ulster was characterized in a very different
manner in Munster. Under another Government Magistrates,
and even higher authorities, had been suffered not only to look
on and countenance, but to assist in Orange processions and fac-
tion fights. His Noble Friend had put an end to that system.
and no favour was shown to either Catholic or Protestant—he
put them down wherever they were to be found. That having
been done he resolved to try what clemency would do, and he
applied the same principle to the Orangemen of the North as he
did to the Catholics of the South, and he had been successful.
He would not now go into the evidence connected with this
question, but he would say thus much, that he believed t'..e
course pursued by the Noble Marquis had done great good in
that country, There were only two plans by which Ireland
could be governed—either by that pursued by his Noble Friend
the Noble Marquis, or that adopted by the American states-
man, Dr. Franklin.—( Hear, hear, and cries of " Divide,
divide, and Question, question.")
Lord BROUGHAM rose to reply. He could have wished,
after having trespassed at such length upon the time of their
Lordships that he could have dispensed with saying any thing
in reply. It was some satisfaction, however, to him to know
that he had little to say in reply, except by way of explanation.
There were, however, a few statements with respect to which
he was anxious to set himself right with their Lordships. It
had been said that the Noble Marquis had most minutely exa-
mined the prisoners at Waterford and other places, before setting
them free. He (Lord B.) found that fifty-seven had been exa-
minedin one hour—( Laughter)--and this, he supposed, was a
specimen of the minute or rather " minnit" examination.—
(Laughter.) His Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Plunket),
said Why rmt bring in a Bill to alter the law ? Now, he
(Lord Brougham) complained, not of the law, but of the
manner in which it was executed as regarded recogni-
zances. When recognizances were estreated the Sheriff levied
upon poor people, who, having nothing, were imprisoned and
let out after ten days. But he desired to see a more effectual
system adopted, and the agents of the Crown made responsible
for it. Neither was he (Lord B.) ignorant of the prerogative
of mercy, and how it was to be exercised by the Crown without
any control from the people, but out of mere grace and favour.
But there must be a limit to it. If the Crown were to play
with the prerogative of mercy as a child would play with peb-
bles, would not the Ministers interfere ; or if they should not
would not Parliament interpose a restriction? He found, how-
ever, a more direct precedent. The statute of Northampton
set forth that, "and where-s offenders had been greatly encou-
raged by charters of pardon, be it therefore enacted," that
was the case they had now before them.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
He would refer to Blackstone, Stamford, but especially to Ser-
geant Hawkins, who said that mercy should only be extended to
offenders who, if the law could have foreseen all the facts, it
would have exempted them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Marquis, however, used to say, " There are fifty or sixty
persons in gaol, whom I have a great mind to let out,
for perhaps they will all shake hands, and all become
better people."—( Laughter.) This certainly was an application
of the prerogative of mercy which certainly differed from the high
principles of Blackstone and Sergeant Hawkins.—( Hear, hear. )
He thought the prediction he made, that the discussion would
be confined to the question of the administration of the law
had been fulfilled, because the discussion had not extended to
the whole subject, but bad been limited to 40 to 50 pages of
the evidence. Then with respect to what had been said rela-
lative to his having attacked Sir lli. O'Loghlen, and that he
had not sufficiently respected the judicial character, he (Lord
B.) had not said anything discreditable of Sir M. O'Loghlen in
his character as judge, but he had coma forward as a witness,
and was tendered by the Government as a witness, not with
respect to any thing he had done in his judicial career, but with
reference to his irterfering with Judges and reversing their
sentences. If not a word was to be said respecting the merits
of an Attorney-General, because he happened afterwards to be
made a Judge, then there would be an end of all responsibility,
because a Government would only have to make an Attorney-
General, who, perhaps, deserved to be impeached, a Judge,
and then there would be an end of all discussion upon his con_
(feet. The Noble and Learned Lord then read extracts from
the evidence, showing the opinion of most of the witnesses was
that juries were now chosen from such a class as gave persons
not any confidence in the administration of justice, but gave
prisoners great confidence in their chance of acquittal. As to
the Noble Viscount (Melbourne), he had, as usual, been very
humorous. Nothing could be more delightful than the way
in which he enlivened a great subject in his own
peculiar manner -- (Laughter) with all that wit, with
which he so gratified the social circle he adorned ;—he gave
a little bit of paradox, which passed for extraordinary sagacity
—(Laughter)—a little bit of misanthropy, which passed for
great knowledge of human nature.—( Laughter. ) No vanity—
no self-opinion—no pride. He acknowledged his own fail-
ings as freely as he disclosed those of others. Nothing
more agreeable—(Laughter)—at least to himself—not
always so to other people ; though doubtless he did not
mean it very harshly, that was not in the Noble
Viscount's nature ; this however was the usual way in
which the Noble Viscount diversified the tedium of a thankless
and dull argumentation. The Whigs in ,modern times had
relied on a .Bedchamber intrigue—worse than the Tories
of old, who always had the grace--the decency—to
give their intrigues the colour of some principle, though
when they said " no popery"—they meant the good
old King—which meant the good old pensions and places.—
( Laughter.) Bus the Whigs stood, glorying in their
shame, avowing their dependence on Court influence—
backstairs plots, politically stark-naked.—( Roars of laughter.)
So long as they continued in this course, he (Lord Brougham)
most oppose them. He would just observe, that there
was this additional reason for voting his resolu-
tions, that the Noble Marquis (Normanby) had stated
that his "experiment" had succeeded, and that he would stand
by it, which male it doubly necessary that their Lordships
should interpose to prevent the recurrence of such proceedings.
—( Hear, hear.) In conclusion, the Noble and Learned Lord
thanked their Lordships for the patient hearing they had given
him, and sat down amidst considerable cheering.
Their Lordships then divided, and the numbers were—
Contents B6
Non-contents
Majority for the Resolutions 34
Their Lordships then adjourned till Thursday.
STOCKPORT.-MONDAY.

The Chartist leader, Mitchell, and his fellow-prisoners
were this day brought up again for examination, and the
Magistrates committed eleven of them for trial at the
Chester Assizes. Warrants were granted against several
who are not yet in custody, Itut against whom the charges
are of the most serious nature. Mitchell and the others
were charged with sedition, and acts amounting almost to
waging war and rebellion. The people of Stockport give
great praise to the Magistrates for the judgment and decision
shown in this matter. It appears that they had long suspected
these men, and waited only for the proper moment; but a
case of arms from Birmingham being delivered at Mitchell's
house, they seized them, bim, and the other leaders at
once. From the papers found upon them, additional in-
formation was obtained, which will be very useful. Every
man of character in the town has come forward to
act as a constable, and upwards of two thousand have
enrolled themselves. A portion are armed with sabres,
and are under the orders of a military officer resident
is the town. The Magistrates are at their posts both
day and night, and have been at the head of the police on '
all occasions. Lord John Russell's selection for this
Borough, if a specimen of Borough Magistrates generally,
speaks volumes in his praise. The military delight to act
under them, and they are zealously seconded by the sol-
diers, whose Gallant Commander, Colonel Thomas, joins
his testimony to the general approval.