The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, DECEMBER 9, 1837.

that the people refused to confirm and ratify the agreement
not to dispute it—that doubt must be removed by the fact
that the subject was submitted for discussion in that House.
An appeal had that night been made in favour of the existing
Sovereign. Now, though gentlemen on the opposite side of
the House might claim the merit of exclusive loyalty, yet he
could safely say, that however democratic the feelings of some
might be at his side, they were not deficient in respect for, and
confidence in, her present Majesty. All the freedom and hap_
piness which could be procured under a Republican form of
Government were, he was sure, attainable under the reign of
her present Majesty.----(Hear.) And as for affectionate re-
gard towards her person, and an anxious desire to promote
her comfort, these were feelings in which he believed no man
in the country would be found wanting.—(Much cheering.)
But they with whom he acted did consider it essential to the
peace and comfort and tranquillity of that royal person, if her
Lame were coupled with that odions Pension List—( Cheers)
—that there should be such a revision of it as would satisfy
the people of the country, who did not enter into all the tech.
nicalitics of their personal inconsistencies, but who looked to
the great principles which ought to regulate the conduct of all
public men, and who are determined that there should be a
full, fair, and honest investigation.—(Loud:cheers.)
Mr. ACL AND thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had little reason to congratulate himself on the support which
he had received from the Hon. Member ; for whilst the Right
Hon. Gentleman asserted that the onus probandi rested on
those who assailed the Pension List, the Hon. Member for
Sheffield contended that the most meritorious persons ought
not to remain on the list, unless they could show a prima facie
case establishing their claim.—(Opposition cheers.) He did
think that when a negotiation of this kind was entered into, it
ought to be borne in mind that it was a harsh principle that
the individual who filled the Throne was the only proprietor
in England who was not permitted to give a pension to her
servants without the interference of Parliament. When her
Majesty devolved the right of affixing her private revenues on
that House, she felt that she was committing a delicate trust
to 658 English Gentlemen 1 but pained must she be when she
found her Ministers return back and return the answer, that in
our feelings of justice we were regardless of every thing but
cold utility, and that we showed no regard for individual
feelings, and he thought, after the speech of the Right Hon.
Baronet, he might add for individual rights.—(Opposition
cheers.)
Mr. WILBRAHAM thought this a motion of justice to
all parties. However much their feelings of compassion or
sympathy might be excited by those who had served long
and meritoriously, he repudiated the notion of these claims
being urged as a matter of right. The idea that those who
possessed them had a freehold title in these grants had no
other effect than to shake the foundation of the rights of all
property.—( Hear, hear, hear.) When he saw such sums as
two shillings and three shillings a-week taken from the poor,
he thought that every pensioner should be examined, under
the reflection that it was drawn from the pockets of the people,
and that those rewards should be confined strictly to those who
deserved them. The proposition of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer did honour to the Government and would be hailed
by the people as proof of their disposition to serve the best
interests of the country.—( Cheers. )
Mr. P LUMPT RE was influenced in his vote on this
question by the considerations which had ever guided his
conduct, namely, by an anxious desire to reward merit, but
at the same time to watch carefully the distribution of this
fund as a trustee for the public.
Mr. PEND ARVES thought her Majesty's Ministers en-
titled to much praise for their conduct concerning this List.
Mr. WOOD said there was on the Pension List the name
of a very near relation of his own ; and if he thought that any
Hon. Member could imagine that any personal feelings in-
fluenced him on a question, the magnitude of which could not
be exaggerated, he should ask for the indulgence of the House
whilst he stated the circumstances of that case. The indivi-
dual to whom he referred was Secretary to the late Lord Cas-
tlereassh, and when that Noble Lord retired from office on the
Walcheren expedition, and on his difference with the late Mr.
Canning, he was appointed vendue master of Malta. That
office was found to be extremely lucrative in a time of war, and
the Government took it into their own hands, and his relative's
name was consequently placed on that List, as entilecl to 1,000/
That gentleman had spent in the public service forty
fears, and upon retiring a short time ago, received no other al-
lowance than his pay under the Pension List. He did not think,
under these circumstances, that he could be accused of having a
personal interest in the question when he opposed a motion for
inquiry. He was opposed to the system of pensions when
they were not bestowed for merit ; but he could never over-
step what a strict line of justice demanded. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Leeds asked who could define what justice was ? He
thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Home Se-
cretary, and Lord Althorp had formerly done so ; and the
Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had certainly that night
stamped the line of eternal justice.—( Opposition cheers.)
Colonel SIBTHO RP had ever been consistent in the ex-
pression of his opinions, and it was his intention to be so on
the present occasion. He was a man
—" Null ins addictus jurare in verba rnagistri ;"
and, therefore, believing that an inquiry into the Pension List
was called for, although to do so he would have to separate
himself from those with whom he generally acted, he should
support the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman the
Chancellor (Stile Exchequer. But was the Right Honourable
Gentleman himself as consistent as he might have been ?
lied not he changed upon this question ? In fact, urged by
he knew not what cogent reasons, had be not actually taken
this questi ni out of the hands of the Hon. Member for South-
.l ark ? The Right Hon. Gentleman and his colleagues were
like drowning sailers, and therefore they caught at the Hon.
Member's straw.—( A laugh.)
" Tempera mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis,"
nas the only reason given by the Right Hon. Gentleman for
his introducing the question. For his (Colonel Sibthorp's)
part, he courted the support of no party. He held no pension,
and, thank God, no member of his family had ever received a
sixpence of the public money.—( Cheers.) But had he a pen-
sion, or any member of his family either, he would say, « In-
quire, inquire, inquire, as much as ever you please."—( Loud
cheers.) So convinced was he of the justice of the British
House of Commons, as to feel assured that if the pension was
cleservell, it would not be taken away ; and if after inquiry it
was re-granted, the claim to it would be tenfold strengthened.
—( Loud cheers.) The conduct of the Marquis Camden, in
surrendering a pension he held by patent, afforded an example
w:deli he regretted not to have seen more generally followed ;
and if for no other reason than that inquiry might produce this
effect, he contended that inquiry should take place. He would,
acting in the spirit of Ys usual consistency, vote for the mo-
tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(Cheers.) That
vote he directed individually against eo one. It was based on
the general principle, that those who feared inquiry could not
deserve what they received.—( Loud cheers.)
Sir CHARLES DOUGLAS intimated his intention of
supporting the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth, an amendment which he felt convinced
represented the sentiments of his constituents.
Mr. H A NDLE Y thought that the Parliament which had
passed the Poor-law Bill were bound to satisfy the wishes of
the people in regard to the Pension List. There was a strong
analogy, in his opinion, between the two cases ; and looking at
the House of Commons as the great Board of Guardians of the
State, he maintained it was their duty to enter upon the inves-
tigation sought for.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MI LN ES supported the amendment.
Lord EBRINGTON thought that long possession gave a
strong claim to the holder of a pension, and if he were to con-
sult only his ()en feelings and inclinations, apart from his sense
of public duty, he would not be indisposed to leave all present
recipients of the public bounty in undisturbed possession of
their income. Ile might then be asked to say what had ope.
rated a change in his mind. He hesitated not to say it was
the conduct of Parliament in reference to the Poor-laws.—
( Cheers.) It had been his duty to take from the poor, under
the new Act, allowances which they had long received under
the old law. Under those circumstances he felt that he must
not flinch from taking from the rich that which he bad not
flinched from taking from the poor.—(Hear.)
Sir E. SUG DE N observed that the proposition of the
Right Hon. Gentleman was for a Committee which would
inquire into all grants of pensions. Now, the Right Hon.
Gentleman said that he bad bad many opportunities of exa-
mining into the nature of the pension grants, and that be bad
in no case met with a pension which appeared to him to be in
danger. Now, would the House, by the appointment of a
Committee, consent to stigmatise the pensions which the
Right Hon. Gentleman had so described, as well as the rest?
The Right Hon. Gentleman charged those who sat on his
( Sir R. Sugden's) side of the House with inconsistency, while
the fact was that it was the Right Hon. Gentleman and his
friends who were inconsistent. In 1830, her Majesty's Minis-
ters held a different opinion ; but a change in those opinions
had been brought about by
.the pressure of parties. There
were many more reasons for inquiring into the subject on the
death of George IV. than on that of William IV.
Mr. WHITTLE HARVEY wished to remove an impres-
sion under which an Honourable Member appeared, in com-
mon with many other Honourable Members, to labour, namely,
that the motion which had now been brought forward by her
Msjesty'e Government was the result of some suspicious com-
promise which had taken place between her Majesty's Govern-
ment and the Radical Reformers. For himself he might be
allowed to say, although at the hazard of whatever imputation
might he thrown unon him, that when he entered the House
the night of the discussion of the Civil List he had no reason
for believing but that the amendment which he had it in con-
templation to propose would be resisted, and would be resisted
as effectually as any of his former propositions. He would
also say that up to the present hour he was not aware whether
or not it would be proposed that he should be a Member of
the Committee. If, therefore, Honourable Members were
apprehensive of his disposition to inquire too closely into
such matters—if they thought be entertained too great an
anxiety to pry into the circumstances under which pensions
had been granted by either party—the best course which
they could adopt, in order to relieve themselves from
those apprehensions, was to omit his name in the list of
the Members of the Committee. He thanked Government,
aal he congratulated Government, for having at length eman-
cipated themselves from the thraldom on this subject under
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at present ; for, he would ask, but for Lord Althorp'suphecraetifitotnteateeihtreneityats
but for Lord A lthorp's resolution—but for the Report of the
former Committee, declaring that there should be no inquiry
—where would the Right Honourable Baronet the Member
for Tamworth have been that night? Those documents,
the letter of Lord Althorp, the resolutions of Lord Althorn,
the Report of the Committee, had been the text of the
Right Hon. Baronet's speech. When, therefore, he heard
from the Right Hon. Baronet's a desire expressed to im-
part to the present discussion a more than usual moral tone,

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