The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-23 00:00:00

as it not likely that timberless petitions on the subject of the deepest importance. The more OIL 'ches that were
would have been presented to that House ? According to the required the more did it show the extent of the ignorance
lion. Gentleman, there were eleven millions of Churchmen and that was overcome by the knowledge that was im.ehrted.
three millions of Dissenters ; but in what class would he place Mr. 13AINE S said that the Hon. Member ts ,so had just
those who wished to go neither to Church nor Meeting-houses ? down had alluded to a petition presented by him (Mr.
He had told them that the Methodists were in favour of Church- Baines) on the subject of Church-rates. That petition
rates, but he ( Mr. B.) denied the fact, and asked whether peti- was certainly passed at a meeting at which he had presided,
tions hsd not been presented from that body against their con- but the chairman had been outvoted on that occasion, and
einuence ? Only that night eleven petitions from persons con- from that day to the present a similar petition had not been
fleeted with that body had been presented to the House by the adopted.
Ree. Member for Weymouth, and vet the lion. Gentleman Mr. HUNIE said that there were two evils admitted : one
101,1 them that the Methodists were opposed to the Ministerial was, the payment of Church-rates by individuals not in con-
plan. This was a somewhat ingenious statement of the case. nection with the Church of England ; the other, the want of
It was tic) doubt true that that body hid not as yet expressed Church room and accommodation to those who were not pro-
ern: opleion on the subject. They should, however, recol- visled with religious instruction. He did not think that the,
lest that the 'Methodists never acted without an instruction lion. Member below him ( Mr. A. Johnston) ought to have
from their conference. No ictimation on this subject had yet brought forward his proposition regarding the latter of these
been given, hut from his own knowledge he was prepared to questions until the first had been disposed of. He would
say that a large proportion of the Methodists were friendly to therefore intreat the Hon. Member to withdruw his motion.
the Ministerial treasure.—( Hear, from the Ministerial side.) The question of Church accommodation was not that which
s
'lle eas glad to find that the Methodists were now spoken of they had met to consider, and by persevering with his amend-
in that House %%WI respect, although he could remember the ment the Hon. Member for St. Andrew's would only interfere
time ahe,, they were treated with contumely, and he must say with the main question before them. The Ecclesiastical Coin-
they had dons. more in the way of communicating religious in- missioners had certainly admitted the deficiency of Church ac-
strUction to the people than almost any other body of men. commodation ; but it was doubtful, if that accommodation was
Mr. A. JOHNSIT.PN, in explanation, was happy to be set provided, it would be occupied by Churchmen. The question
right by
the um elem,,hr for Leeds as to the sentiments of they had to deal with at present was not how they should ap-
the Dissenters. What he hnnl said he had stated on the au- ply the surplus, but by what means they could most effectually
thority of common repost (Cuie, of " Oh, oh," from the Mi- raise it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It had been said that the
nisterial Benches l--and the language uj their own petitions to Dissenters entertained a desire for the separation of the
that eleuse, declaring with their own hai:de the sentiments Church and the State. He had attended many of their meet-
which he had attributed to them.—( Cheers fr,711 the Oppo- rigs, and he found that such an opinion was scouted by them ;
sition Benches.) What he had said with respect to the but he knew that amongst them was entertained a strong and
Wesleyan Methodists he had stated on the author:iv of a decided opinion for the abolition of Church-rates, so far as
gentleman connected with that body, who had assured }rim concerned the Dissenters, and to that alone they turned their
that the petitions sent up from Gravesend and other places by attention. They objected much less to the amount of Church
members of that body had not been sanctioned by the Society rates than to the principle on which they were exacted. The
generally in the localities from whence those petitions pro- Hon. Member for Bradford had talked a great deal about a
eceded, budget which he quoted from the Leeds Mercury, but why did
Mr. HARD Y was understood to deny that the Dissenters the Hon. Member avoid all mention of a petition signed by
were not anxious to procure a separation of Church and State, 19,000 of the inhabitants of the borough which he represented?
and to express his entire concurrence in what his Hon. Friend , The Hon. Member had said that if every individual paid 3d.,
(err. A. Johnstone) had said on that subject. Now he had, on it would create a fund more than sufficient for all purposes.
a cos mer occasion, asked the lion. Member for Leeds what was But it did not matter whether the payment was 3d. or 6d., if
meant by the union formed among the Dissenters, unless it were the individual considered it a work of degradation to which he
the separas;on of Church and State ? At the time he received ought not to submit.
no reply • his question was subsequently answered by a Mr. A. JOHN; TON said a few words in explanation. We
3, , bur:
newspaper, over which he believed the Hon. Member for Leeds understood him not to agree to the proposition of the Hon.
possessed some influence. In that paper it was stated that the Member for Middlesex.
union of the Dissenters consisted in their wishing to have cer- Mr. BO EITHWICK differed widely from the opinions of
lain emoluments taken away from the established religion, and the Hon. Member for Middlesex as to the business before
to eff'eet that sort of separation between Church and State them, Ilse questioe they had to deal with was, not whether
which would prevent any one sect from obtaining grants of pub- the revenues tetiich the Chancellor of' the Exchequer thought
lie money more than another. It was clear from this, that the he could create cou:e' be created co riot, but the question was
object of the Dissenters was to divide the property which now whether, supposing those revenues created, they ought to be
belonged to the Established Church, with a view to its gene- applied to given purposes, or not? He had heti the ho-
ral distribution among all other sects; and yet, notwithstand- Dour of laying on the table several petitions from different
ing this statement, the Hon. Member for Leeds told tinter parts of the country, and they all concurred in one prayer for
that it was not the object of the Dissenters to procure a the maintenance of Church-rates, and a strong expression of
separation between Church and State.—(Hear.) But the dissatisfaction at the conduct of' his Majesty,* Ministers. The
Hon. Member for Leeds said that there was no wish on the Hon. Member for Leeds had said that there were five er six mil-
part of the Dissenters to make any such attempt.—( Hear, lions of people in theeountry who did not wish to go to tine ES-
bear.) lie held in Iris hand a paper which he thought would tablished Church; but wax that a reason that they were so
be conclusive against the statement of the Hon. Member for have no regard for religious instruction ? The principle of a
Leeds, but he would read it to the House, and leave them to national Church was that, by the truths le taught, and the
say whether the object which at all events the political Dissen- morality which it propagated, it should assist list tise ,establish-
ters had in view was not the separation of Church and State. ment and promotion of low and order. In this country ap
It was well known that in this town there was a united Corn- Established Church had existed lopg before the name of Dia.
mittee sitting, in which the great body of the Dissenters were sent was known, and that Establishment teas supported at the
represented. He held in his hand the report of the resolutions expense of the country. He knew that the /light Hon.
passed on a recent occasion. The Hon. Member then read Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said them
the resolutions. Now, if any Honourable Gentleman would that he was as much disposed to support the Established
have taken the trouble to look at the petitions coming Church as any Member at his (Mr. Bortiovick's) side of the
from Dissenters, which had from time to time been laid House, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had assured them that
before them, they would' there have found the separa- the plan which he brought forward was calculated to etreerigthen
tion of Church and State insisted on as his Honourable the Established Church. 'lt would be unfair not to take it for
Friend (Mr. A. Johnstone) had stated, but be was granted that the Right Hon. Gentleman was sincere in what
willing to admit that of late these parties had found it cape he stated; but he would defy the Right, Hon. Gentleman,
client to adopt another and a better line of policy.—(Hear.) either by himself or any of his supporters, to chow that the
He asked whether, during the present Session, a petition had National Establishment would not be weakened by tire adop-
not been presented to that House from the Dissenters of Leeds, tion of the proposed measure. The ground on which the
in which it was said—" As the objection to Church-rates is Right Hon. Gentleman consented to relieve the Dissenters
founded mainly on their unjust principle, no measure will be in from the payment of Church-rates, was because they had con-
the least satisfactory which does not entirely, in substance as scientious objections to their payment, and that to force that
well as in form, remove the burden from the Dissenters."— payment was an interference with conscience. Now he
(Loud cheers,) Before the meeting from which this petition thought that argument would apply equally to relief from every
proceeded, the following paragraph appeared in the number of species of taxation whatever. Would the Right Hon. the
the newspaper to which he had already adverted, of the 2eth Chancellor of the Exchequer consent to exempt him (Mr.
March :—" The borough of Leeds will meet on Tuesday next, Borthwick) from taxation, because a portion of the public re-
at twelve o'clock, to raise its voice once more against that un- venues were applied to the support of the war in Spain, to
just and vexatious impost, Church-rates, and in favour of the which he was strongly opposed?—(Hear.) Would be, on the
admirable measure proposed to Parliament by his Majesty's same principle, exempt the Quakers from taxation, because a
Ministers, for removing for ever a grievance from the Dissenters, portion of the national revenues went to the support of war, to
and a source of contention and odium from the Establishment. which they were conscientiously opposed? But the Right
We hope that every man who wishes to support the Govern- Hon. Gentleman asserted a principle against the Church
merit against the designs of the Tories, and to prevent the High which he neither dared nor could introduce into any other
Church party from putting their foot on the neck of the Dis- part of his financial policy, and he did so because he knew that
senters, will feel it his bounden duty to attend this meeting. the mouth of the Church was stopped, and that it could not
It is expected that the mayor will preside ; and it is hoped speak out, The Clergy were 'placed in a sinrilar position ;
that the Liberal candidates for the borough, both of whom they could not effectually raise their voices against the pro-
have supported the Ministerial measure in Parliament, will be posed measure. He might say to the Right Hun. Gentleman
present. Church-rates are obnoxious, on different grounds, opposite, in tho words of the immortal poet :
to three great divisions of' the people. They are objected to. " Oh, 'tis excellent
first, by many Dissenters, whose consciences forbid them to To have a giant's strength ; but it is tyrannous
support forms of worship or doctrines which they do not be- To use it like a giant."
lieve to be Scriptural, or to pay any compulsory tax for the lie might continue the quotation, and the Right Hon. Gen.
support of religion ; secondly, by nearly all the rest of the tleman could judge if it did not apply to the case under consi•
Dissenters, who, though they have no conscientious scruples deration :
to the payment, feel it to be unjust and wrongful to compel " Could great men thunder
them to support a Church from which they derive no benefit, As Jove himself does, Jove would ne'er be quiet ;
whilst they maintain their own worship unassisted ; and, For every pelting petty officer
thirdly, by a great number of Churchmen, some of whom dis- Would use his Heaven for thunder: nothing but thunder—
approve of Church-rates as unjust, and others feel that the Merciful Heaven I
contentions produced by them disgrace and weaken the Es- Thou rather, with tiny sharp and sulphurous bolt,
tablishment." Another petition to the same effect, signed by Split'st the unwedgable and gnarled oak
19,000 persons, had been presented to that House from the Than the soft myrtle. Oh, but man, proud man I
place which he had the honour to represent, by Iris Honour- Drest in a little brief authority—
able Colleague. He held in his hand one of the handbills Most ignorant of what he's most assured--
which had been distributed, and with the leave of the House His glassy essence—like an angry ape
he would real it, in order to show how such petitions were got Plays such fantastic tricks before high Heaven
up. The Hon. Gentleman then read as follows :—" A long As make the Angels weep."
pull—a strong pull—and a pull altogether."—(A laugh.) He would not say that the Right Hon. Gentleman should be
" To the Rate-payers in the parish of Bradford. termed one " drest in brief authority ;" but he certainly looked
" A public meeting is to be held on Monday next, at twelve as if he was more anxious to assail the myrtle than the gnarled
o'clock at noon, agreeably with a requisition most numerously oak. The Right lion. Gentleman was desirous to change the
and respectably signed, in The Holme, Thornton-road, Brad- present system of Church Rates, because Dissenters were unwil-
ford, for the purpose of petitioning both Houses of Parlia- ling to endure the burthen of paying them. But, in Iris opinion,
ment, to abolish the t obnoxious impost' of Church-rates, all classes of persons, whether Dissenters or not, were bound
and to express its entire satisfaction with the measure an- to contribute to the support of the Established Church. Con-
nounced by his Majesty's Government—a measure, which, scientious scruples must go for nothing in arguing the ques-
while it proposes entire relief to all classes of Dissenters, from tion. The Church of England well dserved the support. of
an impost at once vexatious to the Dissenter, and degrading every class of men, for she was the mother of freedom in
to the Church, secures also undiminished and inviolate the western Europe, and-had mainly contributed to the overthrow
interests of all parties sharing the revenues of the Episcopal of sacerdotal usurpation. It was to her that Dissenters owed
Establishment. Fellow-parishioners, upwards of one thou- tire rights they now enjoyed, and it was but just that they
sand rate-payee—Churchmen and Dissenters—in one parish, should contribute to her support. The Bill now before the
the parish of Kensington, who have determined not to pay House did not, in fact, strike so much at tire Established
Church-rates, have lately been summoned before the magic- Church as at every form of government whatever, whether
trates, and against several hundreds of them distress warrants monarchical or oligarchical, or even republicans. The measure
are immediately to be issued. Do you sympathise with them ? involved and recognised the principle that a few might object
Are you willing to have your liberties thus trampled upon— against any part of the Constitution, and that their prayers
the sanctity of your dwellings invaded—distress warrants is- might be attended to. The question then for tho House to
sued against you, arid your property seized and sold in violation decide was, whether it would be right and justifiable to listen
of the dearest right of every true-born Englishman, the right to the demands of the Dissenters or refuse them. He cer-
of liberty of conseience—and that every man's house is his tainly would be better satisfied in opposing the mealure
castle ?, You indignantly reply—never, never, never. Then brought forward by Government if he was acquainted with the
noon of Bradford, Horton, Bowling, Bierley Manningham, plan of the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth. The
Thornton, Eccleshill, Haworth, Wilsden, and Shipley, be amendment of the Hon. Member for St. Andrew's obviated
at your post on Monday, at twelve o'clock, to testify your many difficulties arising from the Ministerial plan ; and the
hearty attachmenteo liberty of conscience—to the immutable Hon. Gentleman deserved the gratitude of the country for the
principles of justice, and to the peace and unity of all classes pains he had taken, and the ability he had displayed in bring-
of Iris Majesty's subjects. Britons never will he slaves."— ing it forward. The amendment got rid of the awkwardness
(Renewed laughter and cries of " Hear, hear.") Such was arising from no counter plan being proposed at that side of the
the appeal made to this people of the borough which he had House. The principle that the amendment laid down was'
the honour to represent and its neighbourhood, and all he that all the Church revenues should be collected for specific
could say was, tenet if such an appeal had not enlisted their purposes, and that the funds should be applied to the reli-
feelings and roused their spirit of patriotism he should have gious education of the people when it was found necessary.
been very much surprised. Indeed his only astonishment was The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite desired to have the funds
that a petition for doing away with such grievances as were raised from Bishops' leases. What justice was there, he
described in this handbill had not been signed, not by nine- would ask, in meddling with the property of the Bishops?
teen thousand only, but by ten times that number.—( Hear, Justice was the word most frequently employed by Hon. Gen-
hear.) , The Dissenters said that their main cause for oppos- tlemen. opposite,
ing this tax was its injustice. They had designated the sys- "Te veniente die, to decedente canebant."
tern of Church-rates as a system of robbery and spoliation. But what justice was there in depriving the Bishops of their
Now, with respect to the plea of conscience which was put for. legal revenues ? Here were Peers, not hereditary, but ar-
ward, he did not know how they could resist the payment riving at their high merit and attainments to be stripped of
and continuance of Church-rates on this ground. He could their property, simply because the Dissenters were averse to
well conceive how a demand, though consistent with the the present system. Isle could not reconcile such conduct
law of the land, might be conscientiously resisted by with the cry of justice so often sent forth by Hon. Gentlemen
an individual who considered it inconsistent with the law on tire other side. The abolition of Church-rates would, in
of God ; but here was a demand sanctioned by the law of his opinion, not prove a relief to any party. He was therefore
the land—consistent with the law of God—and established for I opposed to the measure and-its principles, and he had sufficient
the promotion of religious instruction and the advancement of I confidence in the good feeling of the House to hope that it
twenty, and he did not see on what plea of' conscience any i might never become law.—( Hear.)
one was entitled to resist a system established for that purpose Mr. L AMBTON, although he cordially approved of the
when that system was consonant with the law of God: With principle of abolishing the payment of Church-rates, must
respect to the injustice of the payment of Church-rates, were object to the terms upon tvhich the Chancellor of the Ex.
they imposed on the Dissenters as Dissenters, as a tax for chequer proposed to deal with the lessees of Church lands
conscience sake? No such thing. These rates existed before as most harsh and unjust. Although the holders of Church
Dissent was known, Those who resisted Church-rates put their leases had, perhaps, no legal ground to demand their re-
opposition upon the principle that they were obliged to contribute moval, they had certainly always considered themselves,
to the support of their own Ministers. Now, he did not see and had, he believed, moreov•r, been very generally consi-
the force of that position, for upon the very same ground dered by others, to have a strong equitable claim to it.
might a man urge that he ougiet to be relieved from the pay- Under these considerations, Church lands held by law had
ment of Poor's-rates, because he contributed from his private for centuries been made the subject of family settlements,
means to the relief of a number of the poor. He would be and large sums of money had been continually laid out
ready to sUrPort the amendment of his Hon. Friend if he had upon them by the holders. The Church lessees, therefore,
shaped his motion differently—if, instead of saying, " Where- had a very strong claim to Parliamentary attention in Any-
as, It is the opinion of the House that funds may be derived thing which might be done at all affecting their interests,
from an improved mode of managing Church lands"—lris I and he trusted justice would be done to them. It had
Honourable Friend had shaped his motion in this way, " if been said at the close of the last debate on this subject,
any funds can be derived from an improved mode of managing that the principle proposed in the present measure was the
rThureh lands, such funds should be applied to religious in- same as that which had been acted upon in the case of the
stroctron within the Established Church." He (Mr. Hardy) Durham University. Now, this I.e begged to deny. It had
would have no hesitation to support a proposition, that if such been tried, but found to be impossible to apply these terms to
funds could be raised, they should be applied to the purposes of the lands mentioned in the schedule of that Act. In some
religious iostructien ; but he did not admit that any such funds cases it had been found that the lands were worth twenty years'
could be raised. The Hon. and Learned Gent. referred to the purchase ;in others the value had varied from eight to thirteen
ease of Lady Howley's clarity, and proceeded to contend that the years' purchase ; and in one case, where the property was dis-
Dissenters, whateeer objection they might have to the payment advantageously situated, it had been found to be worth only
of Church-rates, had no objection whatever to endowments. four and a half years' purchase.—( Hear, hear.) Now, if this
Let them look, for instenee, at the .Regium Domum, which were true, which, according to the statement which he held in
for upwards of a century haj with great advantage to them hie hand, it undoubtedly was, he must say that the terms pro-
been dispensed to the poorer li;,ssenting,- Clergy. Though posed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not tote
some political Dissenters objected to that and to another graut, adopted, at least in regard to all such property as that in-
yet he believed that a large portion of the Dissenting Clergy eluded in the schedule of the Durham iJnuiversity Act. He
looked to this grant as of real advantage and benefit to them. would not, however, go farther into detail upon this branch of
It was admitted that there were an immense number of per- the subject, trusting that justice would eventually be done
sons in the country without the means of religious instruction, to the lessees of Church lands. Before he sat down he
but if they were to afford that instruction, where were they to would say a few words to the principle involved in the
PA i•t afford it. but through the means of the National Church ? Let question before them.—(Hear, hear.) He must say, that
-- s 2.e, -them have the national temples of their religion in which the he thought ,the Dissenters came before Parliament with very
-- ,e- minion, as a nation, might worship God. Let them afford to strong claims to its generous and cordial support. They
S es,
elheir national Church the means of teaching and spreading asked the Legislature to do away with an impost against
wide amongst the people that religious knowledge which was tilt:ivory principle a wbich, T;99TO ;hag ;h9 ,rpogqt, the, felt
• ,

a strong and conscientious object. on. They had rested their
claims upon arguments—they had proved their case in a way
which had as yet remained unanswered by those who opposed
the concession they required. With respect to the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member near him, if he refused his assent
to that proposition, it was because he felt confident that the
subject of education must soon be brought before the House
in a distinct and substantive form befitting its importance. He
hoped that Government would very soon be prepared to bring
forward a comprehensiess measure upon this subject, in full
accordance with the spirit of the age, and founded on a truly
• Christian basis of religious toleretion.—(Cheers.) Such a
measure, when it was proposed, he had no doubt would meet
with the support of the majority of the people at large and of
that House.
Mr. TWI S S contended that if there were to arise any sur-
plus out of the present revenues of the Church, it should be
applied to the building of additional Churches for the countless
millions who, according to the Report of the Church Com-
missioners, were absolutely without the means of religious in-
struction. To ascertain the true intention with which this
measure was demanded and urged on, it was only necessary
to refer to the petitions which had been presented in favour of
it. Some of these petitions, fur instance, objected to the pay-
ment of Church-rates, because, in the language of the yeti-
' tioners, it involved a principle at the very root of the connec-
tion between Church and State, a connection which the de-
nominated a great evil. Another set of petitioners objected
co Church-rates because they were contrary to the doctrine
f the voluntary principle, si hich they wished to see este-
biis‘lail throughout the country; and all the petitioners, after
a variety of hostile expressions against the Church Establish-
ment, declared their resolute intention to use every con-
stitutional effort to overthrow a state of things and to
abolish a principle which they conceived to be so unjust and so
injurious. These petitions, therefore, were sufficient to show
the an;nrus and ultimate object with which the present mea-
sure was espoused by the Dissenters. Now, with respect to
the law up in this subject. The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
on introduc HEr, :t to the House, said that when a vestry met for
the purpose of making a rate for the repair of the Church they
had power to refuse it if they pleased. It was certainly the
case that the vestry, iii meeting to determine a rate for
ihs repair of the Church, had a right to estimate what
those repairs required ; but they were not justified in re-
fusing a rate altogether, and leaving the Church unrepaired.
His Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney-General, in
arguing the question on a former occasion, said there was no
law to compel a vestry to levy a Church-rate, and defied any
Hon. Member to point out a case in which the Court
of King's Bench had granted a mandamus for that purpose.
The Attorney-General then quoted the case of the King
against Bedford, and gave a part of the judgment of the
Court, but unfortunately omitted the latter and more import-
ant part, in which the judges gave it as their opinion that it
was a subject of purely ecclesiastical jurisdiction.—(Hear.)
The judges thereby intimated that there was a remedy, and
pointed put where the remedy was to be found. It was said
the Dissenter.; did pot so much look to the amount of the rate
as the principle on which It was levied. They refused to pay
the money, it was said, from scruples of conscience; but he
was inclined to think that the scruples arose rather from a
wish tp ha relieved from the burden of a money payment,
and, in hia opinion, it had become a question whether
they were cheating the Dissenters or the Church, or
cheating both one and the other.—(Near.) By the old
law, every person possessed of an' acre of land or any
tenements was bound to contribute to the repairs of the
Church. The Church-rate was a tax, not on all the
parishioners, but on those whg ITN lands and tenements, and
those who had no such occupancy warp not 11010 to it. It
wits a burden, in fact, attached to property kilt as much so as
if he had purchased a piece of land on condition of paying a
Dissenting Olergyinen ?Ma a year out of it for ever; and
those who refused to pay Qharch-rates might, on the same
principle, argue that he might get rid of the payment of this
armpit'', though it was one of the conditions of the pnrchase,
He might just as well say, that from scruples of conscience ha
refused to pay the Dissenting Clergyman, and was therefore
entitled to depart from the obligation, and retain the whole of
the property. Most erroneous statements bad also been made
as the number of Dissenters. The Hon. Member for Mid,
diciest *aid they were more numerous than the members of
the Established Church,. bet a newspaper which repre-
sented that body—the Poti4o—made them amount only
to one million, exclusive of the Wesleyan,; and by an-
other computation they were made to amount to be-
tween 1,106,000 and 1,200,000. That circumstance—name-
ly, the great disproportion of the numbers belonging to
the two parties, neighed with his Majesty's Ministers
in 1134, and induced them to oppose the Motion of
the Hon. Member for Exeter. Lord Althorp, after that mo-
tion was rejected, introduced a plan infinitely preferable to the
present one ; but the Dissenter; raised an outcry against it,
and it Was in consequence withdrawn. Let them look at the
different course pursued by the Government now, as compared
with that adopted by them in 1834. The Dissenters opposed
the plan of 1834, arid the Government abandoned It. In 1837
the members of the Established Church opposed the Ministe-
rial plan ; the Dissenters approved of it, and the Ministers per
severed in ILL.( Hear.) According to Lord Althorp's 13ill,
Church-rates were not to be abolished unless a substitute was
proviJed out of the funds of the itate, and to that he de-
clared he adhaved, and intended to adheres but now An equi-
valent was to be given to the Church out of funds which
were already her own. So, in 44 Ministers in , 1837
abandoned their pledge and the Church at ties game time.
They said formerly there was no surplus, yet they now told
the House they had discovered a new plan for raiding the
money out of the funds of the Church, Was that wrung from
them by the Dissenters ? What was the cause? Was it
that a new light had broke in upon the subject, or was it the
precarious situation of Ministers ?—(Hear, hear.) Was that
a vital question which might affect the Ministry ? Last June a
meeting took place between the Ministry and their supporters,
and though the Government was not too tender to the insti-
tutions of the country, he would do them the justice to say
that they were goaded into the measure by their supporters.
They had been told that the voice of the majority ought to be
attended to on all great questions. Were religons questions
to he an exception to the general rule, and was the minority
now to overrule the majority ? Ile perfectly remembered that
when the repeal of the Test and Corporation Act had been
urged in that House, it was said by one of the most respect-
able leaders of the dissenting body, who was a Member of that
House—he meant the late Mr. William Smith—that the Dis-
senters would be perfectly satisfied with that repeal; and that
it would heal all the religious differences which had existed
fur so many years. But scarcely had the Bill for repealing
that Act passed when other grievances were put forth by the'
Dissenters for which they claimed racism, Demand followed
dernan, until now it was sought to establish what was called
the voluntary principle—a principle which, if established,
would lead to the abandonment of all religion, by leaving the
people without the means of access to any religious instruc-
tion whatever. But in these liberal and enlightened times it
was held that the people had no need of religious instruction.
A century and a half ago the Establishment tolerated Dis-
seuters ; but in these liberal and enlighted times the Dis-
senters refused to tolerate the Establishment.—( Cries of
" hear, hear, hear.") At present the poorest subject
of the realm had the means of worshipping at the
altar of his God. Let not Parliament deprive him of that
privilege. After he had toiled for six days, let him not on the
sevenths be debarred from the enjoyment of that consolation
and encouragement which religion afforded to all. Instead of
diminishing, they ought to increase his opportunities of con-
firming himself in those tenets of faith which were " the
means of grace and the hope of glory."---( Haar.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed, that his Hon.
and Learned Friend who had just sat down complained that the
debate had wandered from the point at issue. Much more
reason had he (the Solieitor.:General) to make such a com-
plaint, when he had to answer an elaborate oration which
might have been made by a Catholic Bishop to the French
Convention. His Honourable and Learned Friend seemed
to think that Isis Majesty's Government were occupying a
false position ; and maintained that, with language in their
mouths breathing love and affection to the Church, they
were constantly leaning to the voluntary principle ; and
that they manifested that leaning in every sentiment they
uttered, and in every principle they brought forward. In or-
der to bear out his statements on that point, his Hon. and
Learned Friend had had recourse to papers, proceedings
whence he (the Solicitor-General) knew not ; and to peti-
tions couched, . according even to his Hon. and Learned
Friend's own description, "in rhetorical flourishes." What
was the sole foundation,of his Hon. and Learned Friend's ar-
gument ? His Hon. and Learned Friend seemed to think
that the measure under the consideration of the House, whe-
ther good or bad, was an approach to what he called the vo-
luntary principle. Now, by-a Church Establishment, he (the
Solicitor- General) uederstood a Church which the poor man
might visit without charge, which was provided for him. By
the voluntary principle, he understood a Church which every
man must provide for himself.--( Hear, hear, hear.) Now,
in what way could his Honourable and Learned Friend point
out how a Church kept up by one fund approached more
nearly to the voluntary principle than a Church kept up by
another fund ? His Hon. and Learned Friend contended
that the false position of his • Majesty's Government was
evinced by the humble tone of the law officers of the Crown ;
and he had observed that his Hon. and Learned Friend the
Attorney-General had so high a professional reputation that
he could afford to lose the portion of legal character which his
assertion that there were no means of compelling a parish to
raise a Church•rate, would deprive him. Now, he (the Soli-
citor-General) begged leave to take his full share of the re-
sponsibility which attached to that opinion. He believed that
there were no rights to compel the raising of those rates,
because there was a remedy against their being raised, ex-
cept, perhaps, that proceedings might be instituted in the
Ecclesiastical Court, by the punishment of the individuals
who refused to concur in the rite, An Honourable and
Learned Friend of his, whom he did riot see in his place, the
Honourable Member for Cardiff, had stated on a recent oc-
casion that ho was in possession of certain manuscripts,
which established the fact that in early times the law sanc-
tioned the doctrine that when the parish refused to make a
rate the churchwarden might make it himself. If that
were really the law, all difficulty on the subject would be se-
moved. But it was certainly very extraordinary that in the
numerous discussions which this sabjei:t had undergone no one
had before ventured to assert that such was the law, There
was this fallacy which ren through all the debates on this
measure. It was assumed by those who opposed it that it
was intended solely for the relief of the Dissenters. That he
never would admit. Whether the measure was right, or
whether the measure was wrong, it must be generally allowed
that experience had shown that these Chula-rates had al-
ways been the cause of great scandal to the phgrch, That
admitted—it being acknowledged that the evil was a great
one—tha question Was how it was to be got rid of? Why, it
could be got rid of Dill/ hy the alaulitirm of church-rates; In
what did his Noble Friend propose to abolish OM if WA§ i;

no: by the substitution of a fund adequate to the purpose,
and which might justly be resorted to ? Parliament could
in no way show itself more friendly to the Church establish-
ment—it could in no way secure to that establishment a more
immediate and permanent benefit—than by removin,' the
scandal inseparable from Church-rates. The Noble Member
for Lancashire had on a former occasion admitted that any
ecclesiastical propeity which was found to be superfluous might
he applied to State purposes. He (the Solicitor-General)
did not go so far. But he maintained that it might be em-
ployed in some other manner for the interests of the Church.
His Hon. and Learned Friend who had just spoken had com-
mented on what he called the change of opinion on the part
of his Noble and his Right Hon. Friends which had taken
place since the year 1834, when he said the lion. and Learned
Member for Exeter proposed a measure exactly similar to the
present; but which his Noble Friend and his Right Hon.
Friend then opposed. Now, the measure proposed at that pe-
riod by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter was so far
from beir*, a measure exactly similar to the present, that it
was only half that measure. The measure proposed by
the Honourable and Learned Member for Exeter in 1834 went
to abolish Church-rates, but did not provide any substitute.
He thought that making the charge of Church-rates payable
out of the Consolidated Fund was even better than the present
system. He would say, however, that for the attainment of
the great object which they had in view, they should overlook
all minor differences. It mattered not whether Church rates
were a tax or not, they should not allow it to be felt as a tax ;
and therefore it was that the Right Hon. Baronet had said it
was his intention to get rid of the impost of Church-rates,
which brought the Church into discredit, because it was con.
sidered a great practical grievance, the effect of which was to
keep in a state of alienation the Churchmen and Dissenters.
A remedy then must be found, and, as he believed that re-
medy was to be found in the proposition which had been sub-
mitted to the House by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, he should most conscientiously vote for it.
He believed that though its practical effect might not be to aug-
ment the stipends of the Church livings, still it would put an
end to those disgraceful brawls which so often occurred on the
question of Church-rates,
Sir FRANCIS BUftDETT rose and was greeted by the
most enthusiastic cheers. from his (the Tory) side of the
House, and, indeed, so vehement were the cheers that we lost
the closing passages of many of the Hon. Baronet's sentences.
The Hon. Baronet commenced by observing that it might
appear a little presumptuous in him to differ in opinion with
a great and able lawyer, holding office under the Government,
on the subject of law. Yet as he recollected that common
sense was the foundation of commor. law, and common law
was the subject which the House had to deal with, he must
own that he bad heard with surprise that Hon and Learned
Gentleman declare that in England there could be an immemo-
rial and imprescriptible right, with no means for obtaining that
right. If such were the fact, then he would say the Court of
King's Bench were bound to find a remedy to redress such a
wrong. With reference to the question before the House, he
denied that there was any grievance on the part of Dissenters
of this country in this matter. He must protest against such
an assertion, and he must express with the greatest disgust
his feeling at the pretension of conscience being brought
forward, the fact being that, as soon as Church-rates
affected their pockets, the consciences of those who op-
posed them immediately dictated that this was an unjust
demand._( Hear, hear, hear.) He denied the justice of
this pretence on the part of the Dissenters. The Dissenters
who possessed property purchased that property with this
contingency annexed to it. It was no personal tax. it had
nothing whatever to do with religion, It was a debt due to
others, which they ought not to take upon themselves to deal
with. lie objected both to the resolution proposed, and to the
amendment whlph had also been put; and more particularly to
the latter, because it stood in the way to the giving a direct
negative to a measure which was founded on the grossest in-
justice, which interfered with the rights of property, and with
the usages of this country. Why, now then he would say, in
justice to the Dissenters generally, that the Church-rates were
opposed by a portion of the Dissenters only, and not by the
whole body. The great and most respectable body or por-
tion of the Dissenters, it was well known, entertained no such
scruples as those which were put forward on this question.
He adverted to the Wesleyan Methodists, a body of men be-
tween whom and ourselves there was really so little difference--
a body of men who had so proved their sincere attachment to
the Church of England, that opportunities should be made to
include them with ourselves. He contended that the Wes-
leyana did not object to the payment of a just debt. Nay, he
was persuaded they carried the matter further, and that they
believed the mild, liberal, and tolerant Church of the coun-
try to be a gieat benefit to the country, and that all sects
under its protection were bound by the greatest obligations
for that utmost liberty which under different circumstances
they could not find. Now, ho objected to the scheme
itself, because it had been shown not only by an eminent
lawyer, the Member for Exeter, but also by the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman the Member for Ripon —it had
been unanswerably shown by those Hon. and Learned Gen-
tlemen that this measure was one of the grossest injustice ;
that it subverted a large portion of the property of this
country, and interfered, by the power of the Government, be-
tween the proprietors and lessees; that it violated the rights
of property which had become so complicated by time and
circumstances ; and he contended that the measure was not
only one of injustice, but was inexpedient and utterly im-
practicable, He would say that this measure was inexpe-
dient ; and though be thought the proposition of Lord
Althckrp, which had been carried by a large majority, and
-rniglit have settled this question, was preferable to this pre-
sent plan, even though it was still objectionable, yet he
did not know why the country should be taxed for the sake
of a number of political Dissenters.—(Loud cheers from the
Ministerial sile.) The change of the plan was certainly for
time worse. He should like to know how it would be likely
(unless some new scheme of a Commission were devised, en-
tailing enormous expenses on the country, to see what was
the state of the repairs of the Churches)—he should like to
kno,v how the Church was to be kept up in repair so well or
so economically as by the mode of law at present established,
by which persons residing in the different parishes were in-
terested in seeing that the edifices did not go into a state of
dilapidation, and who acted upon the principle that a stitch in
time saved nine. It was impossible to suppose that if this
expense were to be paid out of the public purse the Churches
could be kept in a state of efficient repair. lie, therefore,
thought the measure was impolitic; but he objected to it
chiefly because it went to an Isolated object, and to affect
the rights of property, for the small sum of 230,000/. He
objected to the scheme, moreover, because he was satisfied it
would be found to be impracticable, even by those who wished
to pass the measure, which, he contended, had already been
thrown out, if they looked to the consideration to be given to
the opinion of the House as given on a former occasion, seeing
that the majority was formed by placemen and adherents,
who, even in olden times—(here the shouts and cheers from
the Ministerial side of the House prevented our hearing the
closing sentence.) When they saw the state of party in that
House—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches) it was
impossible for them to sanction this measure; they could have
no confidence in his Majesty's Ministers. Would the House
support them and look to them to uphold the institutions of
the country ? He thought, on the contrary, they were a weak
Ministry, who, though they could be impelled intq a course
which led them to disavow that which they intended, yet hoped
to reintroduce a measure which had been carried by only
twenty-three. This did seem to him to be one of the most
extraordinary circumstances and one of the most unjustifiable
measures which had ever occurred in that House. But, for-
tunately, there was another House—(Loud and long-conti-
nued from the Ministerial side of the House)—there was a
check and control upon that House, and therefore they might
safely feel secured that this most mischievous, most unjust in
principle, and most impolitic measure could not be proceeded
with, and that it stood no chance whatever of being brought
into practical effect. Early in this debate the Hon. Member
for Leeds appeared to be exceedingly sensitive about the Dis-
senters, and he disclaimed everything opposed to what the
Dissenters themselves put forward as their views, and he firmly
denied that the Dissenters had any wish to subvert the Esta-
blished Church of this country. Did the Hon. Gentleman
carry the whole body of Dissenters in his belly ?—(oh I and
loud laughter and cheers.) At the same time he must do
hint the justice to say that lie guarded himself against being
supposed to express any opinion of his own. Now, when he
spoke of the Dissenters, he would contend that it was not the
Dissenters at large, but it was a small portion of political Dis-
senters, who addressed themselves to the House, and who
were the discontented persons. But the most respectable
person of all the Dissenting denominations did not join in
this clamour. The Wesleyans did not take part in the
clamour. There were some persons who petitioned that
House, but their numbers were not formidable, numerically
or otherwise. They made a great noise in the public papers
and before that House, and he would tell them how' they had
expressed themselves in one of their journals; and he would
then leave the house to judge whether the Honourable Mem.
ber for Leeds was or was not the best interpreter of their
opinions,
or of what the Dissenters said themselves. The
journal which he held in his hand was a dissenting paper pub-
lished in Birmingham, and it was dated the 9th of March
last, when this plan had been made known. The writer said,
Whilst we join in the general thanksgiving to his Majesty's
Ministers, and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, particu-
larly, let us not be understood as receiving it as a boon
at their hands." When all the liberality of the English
Church and of the English people was thus exercised,
whatever they might do in kindness then was not to be
regarded as a boon, though, before it was granted, it was
called the greatest boon which could be conferred, and it
was urged accordingly. When they got the object they
aimed at, then they were to be told by the Dissenters it was
no boon at all. But the writer further observed, "We only
got rid of only,link of the chain of Church bondage ; let no
man mix up the Church-rates with the Church question—the
Church question has not yet been mooted." He recollected
that the Hon. Member for Middlesex told the Dissenters to
got some further footing, in order to get ground for putting
down the Church. .4 But we give notiee to the Church-
men," continued this writer, " that as far as we are concerned
we shall not the less earnestly seek the separation of Church
and State," 4c. tend yet the lion. Member for Leeds said
they did not wish for the separation of Church and State. He
believed that there was not a great portion of the Dissenting
body who did desire this ; but there was a pretence of consci-
entious scruples lately started wilioh he 44 slayer yet heard
of before.-,(Heae, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) But
the great writers--the Doddridges, the Baxters, the Robert
Halle, and ethere—shad never 11-tamed of this conscientious
scruple, and he doubted whether th-eir consciences ever al-
lowed them to imagine that when a just demand was made
they should as honest men resist it. The writer to whom he
had alltdcd in the
.pissenting journal then gave them fair no.
tice that the abolition of "f:,'4r4h-fates alone would'oet satisfy
thong.. Yore, then, was st` loft' of Intimidation ;" 414 Was the
Howe c 9 dt? Ptit--40.0gc t @ 410(.14i1MM1

laws of the country to pacify persons of this description. who
were unworthy of the notice of the. House of Commons ? Then
the same journalist proceeded to say :—" But neither Church_
rates, nor the exclusion of Bishops from the House of Lords,
will satisfy us; we require the Church of Eeglaill to be re-
duced to what she is—one of the sects." But was th it House
to follow out this doctriae? This was the cant of patriot-
ism of the present day.—( Loud cheering from the Ministe-
rial benches.) What he believed was, that which every man
of reflection must know, that if the every wish of a inaii
were complied with, Providence could not provide a greater
curse fur him. .He should liked to have aske,l, if he lied
had the power of foreknowledge—he should liked to have
asked those who, not with ulterior views, asked relief feoen the
Test and Corporation Act, when the great bulk of the people
thought tied necessary for their security, and were glad
when the time had arrived when those shackles would he re-
moved with. safety as they thought—he should liked to have
asked them whether they did not consider the repeal of the
Test and Corporation Ail as a great boon ? But it seemed
that now a boon was to he regarded in a different light when
it was obtained. Gratitude, then, seemed to lose its effect,
and to perish in its exertions. He did acquit the great body
of Dissenters, as he did a great portion of the R iman Ca-
tholics, of taking part in that mischievous agitation which
distracted Ireland. He did exemet from blan e all that en-
lightened portion of the Roman Catholics of agitation. He
believed they detested it as much as any men could. But
what sort of encouragement had the people of England to
pursue the career of concesssion ? Thus they were told that
the Roman Catholics were treated as people who were re-
garded as the inhabitants of a country which had become ours
by right of conquest. It any men thought that they were
able to subvert the institutions of this country—if they
thought to raise the spirit of this Protestant State, and to over-
turn the institutions and cowtitution of the country—they
would find themselves grievously (he should say happily) mis-
taken. Tko Hon. Baronet contended that this measure was
overturned. As far as the law of the case was concerned, it
had been demolished in all its parts by the lion and Learned
Members to whom he had allude] ; and the measure was based
on calculations on which, God knew, they had little to rely.
—( Hear, hear.) Little, indeed, could they rely on the cal-
culations of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, who had found a mare's-nest, or
rather had found the means of picking other men's pockets to
pay debts which were not due from them—( Hear, hear)—he
had been guilty of a sort of petty larceny—he had interfered
with the rights of property, and shaker, them to their very
foundation. Now, Lord Althorp might have carried this
measure, and it would still have been a boon to the Dis-
senters, who had no right to demand that the money should
be put into their pockets. Then as to the pretence of the
thing. Why, men purchased property liable to Church •
rates, and they had, therefore, nothing to do with them
Why, the case of these persons might be like those of indi-
viduals who objected to fox-hunting in the country, who
were so exceedingly conscientious and sensitive that they
thought the sports of the field were inhuman ; but, as an ele-
gant poet said—
" There are born in the Saurian school
Men who think this pastime scarce humane;
But in my mind and not ungentle eye,
His mind is pure which knows no folder stain."
Now, he denied the justice of the demand on the part of the
Dissenters ; he denied the policy of the demand, and he
thought the mode proposed was most objectionable, and for
the purposes intended, it was likely to be the least effective.
Then, under these circumstances, ilnd thinking that in this
question the voluntary prineinle was put to the vote in mttob
too contracted a view to confine themselves to the question
before the House, the question was, whether they were to
adopt the voluntary principle ? Would the House of Com-
mons be for the Established church or not? That was the
way in which he pat it to the House, and be it recollected
that in a former discussion a short time back the measure only
received the sanction of the House (if sanetion it could be
called) by a vote of twenty-three in favour of the Administra-
tion. But he felt the utmost confidence in the good feeling of
those Hon. Gentlemen by- whom lie was surrounded—he had
every confidenee in their good sense, and in the feelings of
the people of England to support them from without, and he
sat down in the perfect confidence that this measure never
could be passed. But he would say a few words with refer-
ence to himself, It was with very great regret that he felt
himself in a situation in which he was placed In opposition to
many Hon. Gentlemen toward! whom he entertained the
greatest personal esteem,e-e( Hear, hear, and oh I from the
Ministerial benches.) His own life had been one of sacrifice to
the good of his country ; and whatever might be the painful-
ness of the present sacrifice, he was content to take it
" His gratiora dictu alie wit) scio, sed me very pre gratis
loqui ei meum ingeelem non moverit, neceeeites cogit" him
to the course which he then pursued, He therefore declared
that he objected to the amendment, because it stood between
the real vote to be taken, and assumed that another was likely
to take place, In conclusion, he thought that the time had
arrived when the people of this country were bound to declare
that they would not submit to any further innovations.
Mr. SHEIL rose amidst great cheering and confusion.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was understood, alter some
prefatory remarks, to say that the lion. Baronet would have
done better to have maintained n judicious silence—such a
silence as he had long observed.—( Hear, hear.) He would
abstain from speaking on the enlightened language of the
lion, Baronet, who talked of the Hen, Member for Leeds
having " the whole of the Dissenters in his belly." The
Hon. Baronet, too, had alluded to an6ther Anise in glowing
terms—in terms which were better adapted perhaps that
House than this House of Commons, The Hon. Member had
referred to his Majesty's Ministers, of whom he had spoken in
language of respect, and yet he was astonished he had
not called thorn his Noble and Right Hon. Friends. But
he said that the Ministry were weak. He bad given them to
understand that the man who led that House wasweak—that he
who carried the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts was
weak—that that man was weak who introduced the Reform of
Parliament Bill into the House of Commons—he said that that
man was weak who, under even the Melbourne administration,
carried the English Municipal Corporation Bill—he spoke of
him with compassion I He (Mr. Shoji) believed that senti-
ment had Its origin in sympathy, He (Mr. Sheil) looked
upon the Hon. Baronet as noble relic -of a temple de-
dicated to freedom, though ill-omened birds built their
nests and found shelter in that once noble edifice. Al-
though the Hon. Baronet was now allied with the men
who were the antagonists of reform in every shape—( Loud
Cheers)—although he was allied with the party which was
headed by the chief constable of the Tower—(Laughter and
cheers)--although the Hon. Baronet Was allied with the parte. (he did not intend to speak in offensive language when he said
so) which was in power when the misdeeds—for there was no
use in employing a partial phrase—when the misdeeds of
Manchester were rife—still it was due to the Hon. Baronet--
(
Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was ititetrupted by
a cry of " Question," loudly and indignantly responded to by
cries of " Order.") He thought it would be felt that the
speech of the Hon. Baronet was of such a miscellaneous na.
tune, that it went over such a vast variety of ground, that it
contained so many references to Ireland, and to a vast variety
of other topics, that he (Mr. Spiel) was not deviating from
time proper course of debate when he ventured to advert, in
what he was sure the Hon. Baronet would feel to ho the
language of Parliamentary courtesy, to certain passages in
his previous political life._( Hear, beer, hear.) He was,
he confessed, about to advert to Some incidents remarkable
not only in the biography of the Hon. Baronet, but in the
history of the times in which he had lived. But when he so
adverted to them, it was for the purpose of giving his meed
of humble praise to the previous conduct of the lion, Ba-
ronet.-_(A laugh, and cries of " hear, hear.") Might he
suggest to the Hon. Baronet that it was now somewhat unrea-
sonable on his part to complainer agitators ?—( Cheers.) M.
levolent people might say that the Hon. Baronet felt [lie (Mre.
Sheil) hoped it was not the case] like the once popular actor
who no longer obtained time applause of the upper galleries.—
( Cries of " Order," and cheers.) -He owned, he thought,
that the phrases employed by the Hon. Baronet towards some
who sat on that (the Ministerial) side of the House might jus-
tify the House in bearing with hint (Mr. Sheil) if he spoke of
the course which the Hun. Baronet had latterly pursued in the
language of what he admitted to be severity, but which he in-
sisted was not in the slightest degree removed from the proper
limit of discussion. But since the House had called upon him
not to advert to the personal conduct of the Hon. Baronet, he
would simply and shortly state that he charged the Hon. Ba-
ronet with being guilty, in every one of the tenets, in every
one of the abstract propositions, he had that night laid
down, of the most palpable,. he would not say the
grossest inconsistency.—( Loud cheers.) What was the
statement made by the lion. Baronet at the outset of his
speech? Did he not say that the proposition of the Govern-
ment involved a violation of the rule by which property was
secured 1—( Hear, hear.) Did he not say that the proposition,
if carried, would shake the security of property to the
foundation?—(Cheers.) lie took that cheer as an admission
that such was the language of the lion. Baronet. Had that
always been the language of time On the 6th of Hon, Baronet ?—( Hear.)
May, 1824, the lion. Member for Middlesex
brought forward a motion to inquire whether the property of
the Irish Church was not more than commensurate to the ser-
vices which it had to perform. On that occasion the Noble
Lord whom he saw opposite—the Noble Lord the Menatlbr
for Lancashire (Lord Stanley)—delivered the speech, conspi-
cuous, no doubt, at 'the time, but rendered more remarkable
afterwards, in consequence of the Noble Lord's ostensible ad-
herence, from that period, to the propositions he then main-
tained. —( Hear.) It must be felt that the motion made by the
Hon. Member for Middlesex on that occasion involved, to a
certain extent, the principles on which the proposition, of the
Government now rested.—(" Hear," and " No.") At all events,
it was contended on the other side of the House, that if Church-
rates were abolished, the foundation of the Church would be
shaken.—( Hear.) The Hon. Baronet indeed went further,
and said that the security of property would be affected,---
( Hear, hear_) Now, wh;t was the language used by the
Horrourabie Baronet on the occasion to whirls he referred,
in May 1824 ? He knew that the House had a general dis-
taste to references made to speeches delivered in what tho
Honourable Berermot called the " olden time ;" and the House
perhaps was right in feeling and expressing that distaste, be-
cause it was not fair to refer to casual or isolated expressions
in bygone speeches, in order afterwards to ground a charge
upon them—(flcar)—but when a man in the year
Vel'e down certain broad abstract propositions—aeleee. he found fault
not with the details of a meeserei thane forward with a dis-
, tinct and decisiye denunciation of its principle upon general
constitutional grounds, it was fair, he thought, to go hack,
not to particular phrases, but to the general tenor of is come'
prehensive speech delivered in the year 'iU-1„, iq which
deliberately, eleerly, and beyond equivocating, laid down
doctrines Of en ebstrect nature djametr;olly app,,B,d to those
which he noel' c4nl9 fWvilrti to edeocate.—( Cheers.) The
passage he wee about to quote did not refer to the inadvertent_
pies a inconsistencies to which he (Mr, Sheil) tocela

House, with its usual good sense and tact, had noti
to
re
ei adverting at the outset of his observation:, and wboiclle'elell
him to dwell upon, because they were too nom.
who spoke now of the necessity of upholding the 1-1
bqultirethis
ntioa 0
repetitioni
a 524 o
try a
s illustrationthe
i a ngwi(Le a grh
thete r and cheers)'
going to read
cor°:
ttitileit
I,lourabl
ascendancee
Bitairoinreeltantdo what .
knew it was necissary that the Honourable Baronet's law „..,OJ,
should be refreslicd.—( Laughter.) On that cccasioa
Baronet was not contented with going into the eri
under which the Irish people were labouring—he did neti,oo.
ehnetrweaasted the ads'
floe himself to the specific facts brought forward by the "
mentioned by way of introduction to what he was
Member for Middlesex—he did, as he (Mr Shiel) had ith'e.!:lo
read, distinctly state the broad, general, abstract grcei‘neto');ef
which he intended to vote for the motion of the Hon.
.51e
for Middlesex. This was the statement :—" With regard
ee
Church property to be so mischievous to a country ano ,
the Church of Ireland, I am one of those who do not ethers
persons imagine; but neither, on the other hand, do
si be
ier it or to so sacred, or to stand on the same footing, e,
hedged round by the same protections, as private proptvrcle,
The property of the Church is, pay given for a public so:L
and it requires that the service should be
performed. ilee
clan of it was given for pious uses ;
and as to the done
who were, according to some Gentlemen, to have reel
gifts set aside by any alterae:on of Church property,
iplt
ask, to what Church did they give this property ? Celltbe,
not to the Church which now holds it, but to tun,)„„4
from which it was taken by the State and tranote,o
to this. As, to the arguments, therefore, which
_To
or,
been addressed to the interests of the landed gentiew
telling them to beware of shaking their own property 1'740
fering that of the Church to be touched, I trust, Sie that
landed gentlemen of this House have too much
g eood geno
adopt any fear of the kind, and too much manliness
tt ot;
treat such opinions with contempt. If it can be shentste,
the property of the Established Church in Ireland is SCI lee
buted as to be a great evil—if it can be shown that by 2,0 d
ing the distribution we shall largely promote the interest:te
floppiness of all the people, that we shall benefit the ean'isce,
if it can be shown that this property is an enormous griees,l3l4,
will it not be absurd to say [Here Sir Francisee
dett interposed an observation the purport of which did
el.
reach the gallery.] The Hon. and Learned Menshernee
claimed, " Does the lion. Baronet say no ?"—( Hear') mo?
he say that these are not the sentiments he then eteresse
Why, he was a Teller on the division which toet, placel°o
the occasion.—(Great laughter and cheers.) The Towerti
were Joseph Hume and Sir Francis Burdett.—(ge'Aettbo
laughter and cheering.) Ay, and since lam pointing een
st
inconsistencies of public men, I may state that I find !LI!, fist
of those who voted for the proposition of the Hon. Member
Middlesex the name of Maurice Fitzgerald, who has shier
contested the representation of Lambeth.—(Loud langalo
Innd
emb cheering, in the midst of which an Honours o 0
er excleimed, " And Lord Palmerston.") Do list
is
wont more names? Then I will tell you that in the satnebtlet
te be found the name of Sir James Scarlett.—(Lau,gto
and cheers.) If you did eget think me capable of reeler:re
the Hon. Baronet, I appeal to a higher authority, and
ibs
you to his own distinct, explicit, solemn denunciation 0 bs
t
Irish church, founded upon the abstract doctrine that
e,
property of the Church is the property of the State's'
(Cheers.) I proceed with the passage from which I ,e,
quoting at the point from which I was broken off by the in'twe
ruptiosn of the House Will it not be absurd to say tilap,ti,
is net to be touched—that Parliament cannot alter the —OOl nation of the property of the Church—when it is shoal' to
this destination is an alarming evil, and that the' alteerabsili
would be productive of great public good?'" He
(Mr. n-001
should not have said one word about the Irish Church Iwo.
the Hon. Baronet gratuitously availed himself of the °pre
nity of animadverting upon the conduct of Irish agitated se upon the conduct of those, and the House well undergo° up.
meaning, whom he described in sarcastic tones as the° el
porters of the Government. He (Mr. Sheil) was not asble
to say that he and those who thought with him were these
supporters of the Government which carried the Engibbeet)
nicipal Corporation Reform Bill—( Hear, hear, and laugh
—that they were the supporters of the Government which
,;el
vied the Births and Deaths Registration Bill—(retie tbo
laughter and cheering )—that they were the supporters dike
Government which carried the Poor-law Amendment Di' ets
Bill which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) OPPed
declared he would not consent to rescind_which the De'l,-,
Wellington, to his honour, declared he would never repel is
(Hear, and laughter.) Let him do the Right Hon. Bare
(Sir R. Peel) justice. This new alliance was no alliaece° b
e.
,Irr.
It was not " Peel and Burdett," but " Burdett end Oast'e.ei But to return for a moment to the subject of the i',
Church., The Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett), who clsc:y.
that he had never undergone any political metaleterPh° tert who maintained that his political creed, political charger
and political views remained unspotted and unchanged eisli
the House hear what he said of the Irish Church, efeeen't, he was now such a devoted and enthusiastic adwefte,
in the year 1824. In the same speech from which he (•d/ Shed) had already been quoting the Hon. Baronet Os
" With regard to the Church of Ireland the single ellee
is, does that Church do good or evil ? Is Protestant as:al:sf
dancy—for that is what is meant by preserving the Church
so much benefit that it must at all hazards be preserved, °to
it not a curse to the people of Irelrnd ? Even if it 050
proved that the Protestant ascendancy is not an evil, it -ite noefellow that the Church should be protected in all itsWeileol
But if that ascendancy is the cause why all classes have tee
equal rights—if it prevents the Government from doingjof
to all its subjects—if it exposes the majority to the tyran'sl
a small number, and will not allow the
nation 'so be eoeer-ie
by any other principle than terror, then, Sir, I cannot
cons
the Protestant ascendancy as so necessary to be preservectifse
that it is not of more harm than good."—( Cheers.) nc(
Shell) would really appeal to the Hon. Baronet whetherets
language he had held that night was not at utter variancel
the sentiments he expressed in 1824 ?—(Cheers.)
Sir F. BURDETT—No.
Mr. SHEIL—The Hon. Baronet said " No." ,r (11 el
" no" there was no reply—(Laughter and cheers)--0r iS
(Mr. Shell) ventured to give an answer, it could only be 'es,
--that the Irish Roman Catholics had disappointed thee
It
Baronet's expectations—( Hear, hear)—and althoeigh
the Established Church to be a grievance__
Sir F. BURDETT—No.
Mr. SHEIL—Then the Hon. Baronet sekeg
in a manner at variance with his feelings, must have
Sir F. BURDETT—No, no.
Mr, SHELL—I speak of what 'happened not ten or tiveieso
years ago, but in 1834. In That year, feeling the ahtel
necessity of having the Church question settled with a, "0 •
to the peace of Ireland, I took the liberty—I believe it tits in replying, or rather attempting to reply, to a speech cLeli"
Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) the Member for Lancashire,
was then a member of the same Government with his
41,06
and Right Hon. Friends—.l took the liberty at the t?ife
of suggesting that it was incumbent on his Majesty'"„e I
nisters to make an explicit declaration on the subject, 1001
called upon every one of them in the House of Comm en
to declare their opinions upon it.—(Hear, hear.) lid
to
thathe t on that occasion
ussel addressed myself more particupe
N Lord (Rll) the Secretary for the Hernefter
pertinent, who, it was said, upset the Cabinet a few daYss for
wards. And I cannot help claiming to myself some creditroe
sowing the seeds of salutary discord which grew al' ieeleer,
cious fruit to my country--( Hear, hear)—for, from the A-
seo
sion which then took elace the split in the Cabinet arose,
seti
not long afterwards the Noble Lord (Stanley) opp?si °tie.
his companion ( Sir J. Graham) abandoned the Adininistra
On the 6th of May, 1834, the Noble Lord (Russell) the
ors
cretary for the Home Department stated, in consequence test
question put to him by the Hon. Member for Tipperary,toet
he felt it his duty to state, that his opinions upon the
ti'hst
of the Irish Church red rained unchanged : and who se" Ire it
rose immediately afterwards, and expressed his pleas° the
hearing the declaration ? Why, it was no other than
Hon. Baronet the Member for Westminster.—(Chard Francis Burdett got up as soon as the Noble Lend
tho Secretary for the Homo Department sat down'i.
declared that his opinions also upon the subject °IA it
Irish Church remained unchanged, and that lie 610 4;
absolutely necessary that that Church should be re the
and he distinctly and warmly expressed his gratitude Toed
Noble Lord for the sentiments he had uttered.—( Hear' first
These were his words: " He thought he saw for 01e4.
time a glimpse of hope of removing what had been so
skip
rankling in the minds of the Irish people, and of nir
that Union, so important in other respects, a sclu"°eP;
strength and happiness to both countries. This object sats,
reared to be of such magnitude that all other subjects
area
details shrunk into utter insignificance. He was P Peet'
to make as great sacrifice in a spirit of justice or of glees
rosity as any Irish Member, for lie felt it was bothorroviete
and wise in this country to carry this object into can ;srlf
effect. He felt strongly upon this subject, for from
not
period of life he had been deeply, though perhairt was
prudently, implicated in it ; but it was
subject we
as
be
calculated to drive a wise man mad. But lie admitted t
at
50
oea
felt then not as an Englishman, except as desiring
promote the good of his fellow-subjects. He tee' seas $
the feeling tone which had been employed, as this tinei'
subject which had kept Ireland in a ferment at she repo li
as the great grievance of a large proportion of t
lation of Ireland, and if arranged at an early lAveeted:re
beartbernings and discontent would have been Proeverity
I abandon at once--I deprecate any language of 0011
speaking to the Hoe. Baronet. I would address 'limb, par
t ea 4
the language of respectful remonstrance; and aftere,a, I f
sages I have read from speeches made by him in 'LI i;ronger,
and May, 1834, I mould ask him—l will use ane__sfic'„
terms—was there not an anomaly in his conductrioolhesevio
hear.) What has happened since 1834?...—(0erelte 110,e,
ing.) Will any one tell me what has happened since?
we changed our language ? Is not our tone the same?here his .
arc we changed ?._.( Hear, hear.) I admit that
etherogea,i,
been great changes, I admit that public mensiteeecretiallibe
admit that there have been some extraordinary ail Roo the
the minds and opinions of some ; but as far as I canoes 11'1310 slightest judgment of myself, or of those with whom ha
the habit of acting, I do not know in what particularrhettotio
deviated from our former conduct.--(Hear, ileeae'elicaste dO
entreat of those who lists to answer me to bar. I coo.
4)en2isteneY of. the Heeesweable Baronet.—(Hear'-at hi
isee
entreat them to tell us upon what ground it igs"ayg hij
duct hue peen changed, or what cireumstance"
tion ceelie
that its his or their estimation justify the alter.
....nrtant,erto
4lesmer sentiments and opinions upon so many im, hither
tical topics.--( Hoar, hear.) I confess that
_snot tbi's .1
spoken rather more in reference to the Hon. Dui' sa
the subject-matter before us—(Opposition chetteersofee eetPee-
think myself justified in le:view dune so, in ccuee(l,4 rnaouyeta
more than indirect taesien which the fiGd. 814,e
send er
the party to es'a.sch nun attached.—(lieer.), a Athy
fi.1314:‘ that we should stand lee and listen wit!,
hPraerew
difference to the suksercilioee eseete with which