The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-08 00:00:00

contributed money to esetblish clectiee funds, to be used
ter c biet ien purposes —( Loud cheers.) Ile recollected
that he had coetributel, in the year 1831 cr 1832 a large
subscription, not fur _canning on an individual election, tut
generally for supporting candidates in the different counties
and towns in England who were favourable to the passing of
the great measure of Parliamentary R ..form--( Hear, bear)
—and in doing so he had acted in common with her Majesty's
present Ministers, and he believed a large majority of those
who supported them.—( Hear, hear, hen-. ) lie would act
go ov: r at length the ground t iken by his Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member for Exeter, who had conferred a
groat favour on the House by the manner in Which he had
called up, one by one, those gentle.nen opposite who had
entered into election subscriptions, but each of whom had
discovered so ably, anl with such acute discrimination, the
entertaining and in,tNietive difference between his own
case and the one at the time under discussion. The Noble
Lord the Member for No to D von had contributed to some
fend of this kind, or at least if he had not contributed he had
headed a subscription .paper pith the view of obtaireiag :end
soliciting funds. " Bet oh," said he, I did it entirely from
private friendship, I was no party to the election, but I was
very .much interested in the result." The Honourable
Member fur Brirlport had been next appealed to, and
he avowed that from London had proceeded a call upon
the Reformers of Euglarrd in general to subscribe for the
purpose of presenting a petition against an individual return.
___(" For an election," from Mr. Warburton.) Yes, it might
be for an election, but he (Lord Stanley) would ask whether
the balance was not applied to further the petition.—
( Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Learned Member
thr Dublin had made an ingenious use of the speech of his
Noble Friend the Member for Dorset, when he said that this
subscription presented the strongest ground and the most
forcible reason for doing away with the evi's of the pre-
sent system. Now, it was contended that by a general
subscription, or the contribution of a wealthy individual,
for no distinction could be made in the c.:ses, the sub-
scribers had equally the power of paying the necessary
expenses of an election, or of the subsequent pro-
ceedings of putting the less wealthy individual to great
and improper expense. But if they forbad all assis-
trine°, what would be the result? Would the poor man
be protected? No. The wealthy man might carry on with,
impunity an expensive and vexatious litigation, whilst the poor
man, who needed the supply, would be deprived of all power.
—( Hear, hear.) Would they allow men to subscribe to the
election, would they prcveet assistance beyond the return ? If
they complained of the expenses of the present tribunal, let
the House apply a direct remedy, but let them not prohibit the
combination to do away with the ill effects of this expense.—
( Hear, hear.) Let them beware that bv removing whet was
an apparent injustice, they did not produce a still greater.
But the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had discovered
this nice distinction ; in short, every G4l:tlemazi had drawn a
very clever excuse for his own acts. In one case it was pri-
vate. friendship; the temptation of the Hon. Member for
Bridport was, that he represented the leading Reform town
in the county, that lie thought the exertions of his consti-
tuents were worthy of encouragement, and he was neces-
sarily put forward, not to promote purity_ of election, but
to give his' pecuniary assistance for election expenses.
Another Hon. Gentleman had said, " It is quite true that I
subscribed, but then I lived in a neighbouring county ; I did
not know the particulars of the election, but of course I fplt
considerable warmth about it"— ( Loud cheers.) Another
Honourable Member said that he had eollected money gene-
rally all over England to carry on the elections in England,
but that his Conduct was no precedent for the Spottiswoode
Association, because his subscription was for the purposes of
the election, and not for a petition.---( Hear, hear, hear.) Oh,
these purposes- were very different. " You may give all your
money legally to obtain a seat on an election ; but if the re-
turn be fraudulently opposed you must not defend it, you must
not proceed one step further."—(Cheers.) This was the dis-
tinction, but it was so slight and so flimsy that it entirely
escaped the most acute power of conception which he ( Lord
Stanley) could bring to it. Again, the Honourable Member
for Dublin said that there was some difficulty in the -law of
maintenance, and so he would not put himself into the scrape
of entering upon that question. It was true that he had done
his utmost to promote a subscription among Irish Members,
who did not form part of the constituencies, and who had
no interest in the places applied for, although they were
Members and candidates.—( Hear, and cheering.)" But it
was before an election, before a dissolution, and when the
Sovereign was still alive, and when, according to the Noble
Lord who last night rose so high upon this point as to reach
almost to sublimity, before they could possibly judge of
the merits of the petition.---( Hear, hear, hear.) But then
it was better there was an election, and it being be-
fore any question was pending it was perfectly legal and
right;—( Hear, hear,)—and the Honourable and Learned
Member had given most valuable legal advice without fee,
for Mr. • Spottiswoode had only at that moment to collect
a food and apply it at ttie next election on any vacancy,
and, according to the Ifonourable and Learned Gentleman's
doctrine, he would not be subject to any punishment.—
(Cheers.) But was this shift quite correct—was the case as
the Honourable Member had stated it? He held a speech
which had been delivered by the Honoureble- Member in his
hand, and At the very time the Honourable Member had made
the proposition he found that two petitions were pending, to
both of which he invited the attention of Liberal Irish
Members—( Hear, from the Opposition benches)—and he
would read it in terms to the House. He who had such a holy
horror of any man coming to the House with the possibility of
any bias on his mind, and sitting on any Committee
on an election petition, had used language which he would
repeat to the House. The Hon. M. mber said—" Early next
week the Committees to sit on the Longford and Carlow pe- •
titions are to be balloted for, and it is necessary that every
Irish Liberal Member should be presont in the ]louse. In
Longford the greatest triumph whicli the popular party had
gained had been achieved, and no doubt the Tories will attend,
in order to render nugatory the advantage which has been
gained. From this spot, then, I pronounce any Irish Liberal
Member who shall be absent from the House on the 11th to be
guilty of a gross breach of a most important duty. This is a
subject which will admit of no compromise, of no pairing off;
and I shall hold every Member who thus neglects to assist men
who have sacrificed their property and the interests of their
families for their country to be persons for whom no political
punishment will be too great." He (Lord Stanley) used
this extract on the present occasion only because the Hon.
Member, in that very speech, recommended a fund to be
raised, knowing as he did that two petitions were Fending,
and because lie now declared that he had subscribed at a period
before any election petition was presented:—(Cheers from the
Opposition.) He came now to the objection that this was an
Irish question, that the fund was raised exclusively for In land,
and Irish cases. He would not contend that the English had
no interest in the result of the Irish elections. He would not
say that the Irish Members did not exercire an influence—
ishen he considered the position of parties, he. would say,
a baneful influence—in that House : he said it in reference
to those to whom he was opposed.—(Hear, hear, from the
o,;poiition.) It might be important to every member of
the community, and it was not a matter to be lightly con-
sidered, that in that portion of the empire, as in this, the
returns to Parliament should be the genuine returns of the
constituents.-( Hear, hear.) But there were in Ireland
peculiarities in the law, and the fact was not denied ; there
were peculiarities in the system of registration, defects im-
properly
allowed to exist, which rendered much more easy
the perpetration of fraud than in England, and at the same
time which rendered proceedings b fore Committees more
difficult and more expensive ; and where this existed was it
singular that the Association should look to that quarter in
which the greatest struggles were made, and that they should
apply the subscriptions raised to that part in which it should
seem most available ?—( Hear, hear.) There was no doubt
that there had been in Ireland for a long time a Reform As-
sociation, or a General Association, and no doubt that
week after week "rant" was produced there, but to what
pursta e that was applied the House could net know, although
he had no doubt that many lionoureble Members, but it was
impossible to say how many, were indebted to it for their
seats• in this House.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition
-benches, and cries of ‘. Oh, oh 1" and •• Name 1" from the Minis-
terial side of the House.) He was sure that the Honourable
Members who called upon him to name those to whom he
alluded as having been returned by this means were Irish-
men, for he never heard in his life a niore palpable bull than
that of which they were guilty, He
bthheaerdsm%jevulsrte(
Astabliaduusat that
it t
turned,was
and he to
called say
uponli(s tomany
lname"cm
Elc must say that he thought -that that secret application of
funds was a most dangerous part of the system which existed
in Ireland, and he must say so in vindication of the general
subscription. —( Hear.) Then he was told that it was a reli-
gious question, and that, as such, it went to excite a feeling of
animosity. He did not mean to say, and lie sincerely re-
gretted the circumstance, that in the Prospectus of the Asso-
ciation the term .‘ Protestant" was used ; he could not wander
at its being employed ; he could not blame the parties for
having used it; but if it should be said that it was a Protes-
tant Association formed for the purpose of opposing the re-
turns of Catholic Members, he would say that the facts of the
case would refute the allegation; for if any Hon. Gentlemen
would look to the petitions which had been presented from Ire-
land, he would find that a very large proportion, he believed
12 or .13 out of the 17 presented, were petitions against Pro-
testant Members---( Hear)—and that two of them were peti-
tions presented on the part of Catholic constituencies. But
if it were meant to say that it was a subscription so far entered
into on Protestant grounds, that it was fur the purpose of
increasing political strength by means of election petitions,
presented by those who desired to defend the Protestant
religion, against those whom they believed to wish to over-
threw it, and that the fund was t r be applied exclusively to
that portion.of the empire, in which they thought the Parlia-
ment try institutions in this respect were weakest, then to t trm
mita..
a
n Protestant Association was no matter of rebuke to any
Hear.) He called upon them to oonsider these mat-
ter§ before the i Pntideroned unadvisedly any steps which had
been taken, an before they shifted from the Government the
duty whicn belonged to it, by introducing a fixed and definite
law upon the subject.—( Hear, from the Opposition benches.)
Mr. D. W. II ARV E Y stood there as beloagiug to neither
aTV; and he could see tin cli:;itinoq3 Iletwoen v.eturns for
ny place iu Ithiglaiid or in Ireland; there was no distinction
whether the return was for an English county or an Irish
county, for a Scotch city or an Irish borough : all were in the
British empire, and he repudiated any suggestion that he was
not interested in them—that he felt no interest in the_ suilifiet
of Irish elections because he did nut iteptesent a nity‘. in that
It',4ir.:!ioLethrnebeCrmsltrriite.l;ilng.ilpfract4's4oen6itel);'ati4,!plictihot'slit:ouis;rllZaarnodf
thnn but for their patriotic aid,. English -freedottl have
bena lost! lie del-ilea the tillegetiore and the feelings of
every Member of the liouie should be the same, for whatever
place he might be returned. Bet was it not clear that the
expenses of elections were enormous, and the expenses of in-

quiring into the merits o: them before Commhtees were ge-
nerally so ?—( Hear, hear.) Were not • these concessioas,
made reluctantly, stifficie t to justify an itrep..iry by eh it
means hereafter the matter might Ire altered ? 'And it was
with tiries.object that h • pr. sent ed himself. He did not he-
sitate in saying, from his personal experience., that no tri-
-1 until ct u'd be compared in unjust proceedings and tree
sl onsibility or character to
,Committees of the Helm but one.
Ili 1830 a petition was presented against him on the ground
of his- not having a quaiification, although no doubt exited
whatever of the suffiLiency of his proeeety. lie s.rt on Iris
return to the house ; but a petition having teen prcseeted
against him, he was about to enter the CornreLtee-room ashen
• t're inquiry teas about to take place, when he was called aside
by the King's counsel who was engaged against him, aid he
said that he was instructed to meke a eropesition to Lim as a
condition on which the petition should be whit:hewn. He in-
quired what was the nature of the propotinee, atet he was in-
formed that it was that he should forego proeeedings which
he had cemmenced aeninet the Corp ra!mn of Colchester, and
which he bad institeted in the Court of King's Bench. [Ls
• anawer was, " I defy you to aasail my seat, however doulful
it may to, because I will not stop the proceedings." The
reply of the King's counsel was, " You know of what u
Committee of the House is composed, ant being neither
a Whig- nor a Tory, your fate is doomed, and, you will
lose, your seat." And he was unseated on the petition.
The petitioner alien, who was the acesoa who had op-
posed him at the election, applied ,to be ,placed in his seat,
but • this -the Committee refused, for they said, " Although
he has prayed to uns 'at the sitting,- Member, he has fcrgotton
to pray that he may be seated himself." This staggered and
confounded them ; and though four of ate Cannnittee w. re
found to vote in favour of giving the petitioner his seat, the
majority were averse to it. The Petitioner was astonished at
what he considered the negligence of his agent ; and though
he (Mr. Harvey) was unseated, he forebore to go down to the
place and canvass for the seat. After the affair was over he
(Mr. Harvey) was called cut of the Committee by Mr. Peter
Moore, who told him that though he had been twenty years in
the House, and during that time frequently on Comeittaes,
yet that he never remembered to have oitnessed such
flagrant injustice as had been exhibited by that Committee
towards him (Mr. Harvey). " But," added Mr. Moore,
" this comes of your being no party man, fur the Committee
was so nicely balanced, that, with the exception of m)self,
you had not a single friend upon it. "—( A laugh.) Now, it
could not be suppose! that wain such impressions as these
on his mind he would stand up as the ad, create of the eke-
don Committees of that fleut:e, but what he stood up for was
this, that an inquiry 'should be institute', and some means
adopted by which the ruinous expenses which were con-
fessedly inseparable from contested or controverted elections
shOulti be done away with —(Hear, hear.) At the present
moment no man could stand a contest in any borough, city, cr
county of this kingdom but it a serious expense. The Noble
Member for Do.-setehire had himself admitted that so frightful
was the expense of inquiry before Election Committees of that
Hous', that he had been actually led to contemplate the re-
signation of his scat rather than incur so heavy an expense,
and that he should have adopted this course had not powerful
friends interfered. It was not belonging to all men,, how-
ever, to hale powerful friends. It was admitted on all sides -
that the expenses, both of the original carteet and of main-
taining a seat; were so enormous that even the heir to a title
and to a great eroeerty shrunk from entering upon them—
(Hear, he ) fie (Mr. Harvey) would ask the House,
than, whether it was not high time to enter into a sin-
cere and searching inquiry. into. the causes of these ex-
penses both of the original contest and the disputed seat,
for the House must recollect that however much they might
have reformed the process by which men-were returned to
that House, by simplifying the regis:lntion, by abbreviating,
the period during which a contest might last, yet, as far as
regarded a scrutiny before a Committee; all the expenses
remained unchanged and undiminished. Was the House
disposed to lessen the' expenses, and would it consent to a
Committee to inquire into the means of doing so? It was
simply with the intention of ascertaining this that lie had risen.
Not that the debate of the evening had not aff,rded many and
various topics on which for any Member of the House to dilate
to any length he pleased, without any apprehension of being
called to order for departing from the question.—( Hear,
bear.) If any Gentleman; not having heard the motion real
by the Hon. Member for Limerick, had listened 'to any one of
the speeches of the night, excepting always that appropriate
and singularly neat and compact speech of the Hon, and
Learn d Member for Exeter—(Hear, hear)—.he might very
fairly have presumed that the House was• discussing a motion
for the House to go into a Corranjttee of the whole House to
consider the general state of the nation--( Hear, hear, and
laughter)—for scarcely any possible topic hal bc en omitted,
save, indeed, the precise question before the House.--(Re-
newed laughter-, and cries of " Hear, hear.") He (Mr. Har-
Vey) would, however, throw aside all advantages arising from
this temptation to enter into - tho wide field and discur-
sive range of suggestions which fancy or feeling might
supply, for the purpose of bringing the House to 'what he
considered the practical view of the suhpet ; and, whether
it were palatable to the Howe or not, it was his intention to
take the sense of the House upon it, and with this view, and
in order that at that time of the night-they might have really
something to discuss—( Cheers and laughter) —and that the
country might be able to appreciate the nature of the subject
engaging the attention of its House of, Commons, it was his
intention to move, by way of amendment--4 A laugh)—
That a Select Committee be 'appointed to consider of the
mea. s by which the expense: of contested and cont-overted
elections maybe avoided. Great laughter arAl inte.euetion.)
Now this was a question which waul•l well justify ant adjourn-
ment of the debate, for it was one wliVeli teettired to be ma-
.turely-conaidered ; and, as he had said before, all the pre%iatis
dire ission of the evening amounted to nothing —( Neer, beat.,
and laughter.) No man. in the House could support the ori-
ginal motion—( Hear, hear, and laughter) ;—for • hewer:A-
touched it might be in silken terms, and however much the
subject m'ght be set forth in fine terms, by its advocates, ho
considered it was a direct censure on the Han. Member for
North Wiltshire.—(Loud Opposition cheers,) The lion.
Member concluded by proposing his amendment. •
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE seconded the amendment, amidst
a confusion of cries of " Divide, divide;'' Question."
Question."
The question havine been put,
Lord J. RUSSELL, though unwilling to detain the House
at that period of the night, felt it is duty to rise to say tint he
should vote neither for the original motion nor for the
amendment.—( Much laughter.) He begged a. few moments'
attention while he stated the grounds oa whica ho felt it irn-
pa,sible to support' the original motion,—( Hear.) He was
of the same opinion as he had stated yesterday, and which he
now stated again, namely, that great evils must attend on
this particular combination affecting the Irish controverted •
election petitions. He still thought, an.l tho debate of this
evening had confirmed him in the opinicn, that the eh tractor
of this combination and subscription was that of Protestant
against Roman Catholic, and of Englishmen against Irish-
men.—( Hear, hear.) He saw by the instances quoted to-
night, of peculiarity in the nan;c3 or signatures cf some of
the subscribers, such as " Anti-Papists" and " Art' Dens
Theologists," and titles of that description, intended to
signify attachment to the Protestant Chu.e'r and Con-
stitution—this sufficiently showed that it was on re-
ligious grounds that the subscription hal' been raised,
and Was contributed to. Another fact, that the sub-
scriptions were intended to act solely against the Irish peti-
tions', was sufficient to satisfy him of the character of the
proceedings. Taking this view of the matter, he considered
the combination an act calculated to break that harmony be-
tween•the two countries which was intend-2d to be established
at the Union.—(Hear, hear ) But this was not all. He
would put it to the House whether, c rnsiderlng th suspicions
which had grown up and the objections that were raised on
' other grounds against the tribunals by which the election pe-
titions were judged—lie would put it to the House whether,
bearing these facts its mind, it was not cf opinion that a sub-
scriptior of such a nature was calculat,ol to. excite additional
doubt and suspicion as to the proceedings of those tribunals.
—( Hear hear.) But when lie was asked what remedy was to
be applied, he declared, as he declared last night, that he knew
' not what direct remedy theyleould apply. His lioneurahle
and Learned Friend the Attorney-General, stated it as his
aopirrio'n, that, as regarded the mere question of law, these
sub7eriptions were illegal. The Noble Lord said if that
opinion were correct—if the Government believed the sub-
' scription: to be illegal, why did they not immediately institute
a prosecution against the parties ? Now surely the Noble
Lord, with his experience of office and public Ife, must know
that amongst the transactions of the day it frequently hap-
pened that acts were illegally committed,-and that though her
Majesty's Attorney-General, if asked ifthose acts were or were
not illegal, us a good lawyer must declare them to be viola-
tions of the law, still he perhaps would not -Avis,: prosocution
in any of those case. Every one knew that i, was not suffi-
cient to say that because acts were illegal they ought to be
prosecuted, and lie bad no doubt his Hon. Friend the Attor-
ney-General . formed a sound judgment when be said he
thought that these subscriptions ought riot to be made the sub-
ject of prosecution. • He was forced, thou, to this conclusion,
that whatever the political or the moral character of this com-
bination, whatever the peculiar evils that it might inflict on
the country, when they talked of proceeding against it, they
could not proceed on any such ground as had been suggested.
If they considered it illegal or an attack on their privileges,
and instituted proceedings on that ground, they must at the
same time allow of proceedings against every subscription that
had been raised for controverted elections, and, perhaps, even
against every subscription that had been raised for contested
elections in this country.—( Hear, hear.) Fur that rea-
son he thought it was unadvisable to enter on any such course.
But though not prepared to say that measures might not be
taken to limit or restrain the powers of subscription, he feared
they might be working mischief, in many instances, instead of
good, if they refused to allow the interests of the poor man to
ho maintained by the subscriptions of others against the power
of those who might have great resources nt their command ;
by establishing that principle, they might be giving an undue
influence to the wealthy, and deeply injuring the interests of
those who were in less fortunate circumstances. He therefore
doubted much whether it was expedient to enter on any course
whipli had Aar its object to put down subscriptions by any law
At present in existence, or by any that Parliament might fAme.
Such being the case, while he thought that there weae
peculiar evils arising from this combination—while be th,ought
it calculated to keep alive religions at:lntoslties, and thus
to inflict a deep injury neon tiro community, he could not
consent tq the appo:ntment of a Select Comnitteo.
Hear,' hear, hear.) The nest course opt' t to them
,was that which he proposed tg pur.uo it was the courte
of allowing the election Fictitious) to go on in the regular way
before the legal tribunals; but at the sane time he proposed to
forward as much as was in his power any measure which he
thought likely, on the (no hard, to give -greater facility and a
character of iiripartialiy to their tribunals • gild on the other
band to diminish the expense of the trials which would come
before thero.7—(Cheers ) He must advert to ono more mat.

r that wa; &hided tLy Noble Le rI. He agreed eith
him that the uncer a nty of the_ fra &the in !reined was one
of those circumstence. tenet d more t' an anything else
to render the decisi ns of the E c.tioa Committees Mkt to
doubt, and, consequently, s ail Lion and dissatisfaction. lie
. considered this in a great measure the consequence of there
being great doubt as to the law o Election Petitions. The
decisions would be le s un.sertain and variable if the Commit-
tees had before them for he r guidance ruttier poreerder t
He himself believ d t! at men,' uhsteter might lie their party
views, would not b, disposed to swerve fie:it what they
plainly saw was the r duty.—(Ol post on cheering.) But
while there was a greater nr"iudice agehist it, as iri
consequence of the upposed influ once of pod tical nr p rty
viers, the greater w. s the reason to imer, ve the tribe.: al as
much as po sible, a d to give it as much legal essistatne
they possibly could. This seemed to him tel. Le almost the
only measure whit tey coo d 'a se on it is subject. lie
did no:. think tha i the present soste ~f thirms, they eaul.l.
propose any measure which tuts eikely to postpone to a fu_
lure time the le titioas which would not be imeuted to p.r v
views. He ha I thus she stat.d his o; 'pion on the ques-
tion before the hiMse. Ile would, however, before he sat
down, take some nttice of one or two observations whielt
had been made by Honnurahle Members. tied sal ich were
somewhat personal to himself. He would pass by the ob-
servatioaa of the lioneurable Member for Maidstone, who
had spoken for the first time in the House that night, oith
merely referring one remark. The Ho towable Member
said that he (Lord John Russell) hell in one hand the keys
of St. Peter.—( A laugh.) In his opinion the Hon. Mem-.
ber fel'a i to an errorsimiiar to that into which many yatutg
spe -kers Lai before fallen, namely, that he had transposed
his figure as well as his persons ; the Hon. Gentleman evi.
dently intended to say that Mr. Hudson, when he rushed into
the Vatican, had secured the keys of St. Peter, and placed
them is the band of the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Great laugh-
ter.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for North Wilts
said that he (Lord John Russell) lead attached much weight
to t e authority, and had referred to a motion that he brought
forward some years ago, and to a speech he then made, as a
a precolant for the present prOeeeding. Ile begged to as-
sure the lion. Baronet that he attached no weight whatever
to his authority.---( Hear, hear, end laugh.) He did not think
that any weight or importance could or ought to be attached
to that opinion--(lleac, hear)—and therefore the Hoe. Ba-
ronet was mistake i in supposing that he had alluded to that
precedent as being entitled to any weight or authority.—
( Hear, hear.) Ile believed the Hon Baronet, who had made
sense observa,ioes tv'et reference to himself personally, bad
left the House, but 113 they were of very little consequence, he
would nut dwell upon them. The lion. Baronet had spoken
of his ( Lord John liusselhi) inconsi tency every twelve hours ;
he could not help observing that the question of consistency
was rather a dangerous topic fur the Hon. Baronet to dwell
upon. He would, however, take an opportunity of saying a
few words on this Subject when the lion. Baronet was in the
House.—( Hear; bear )
Sir It, PEEL objected on vareus grounds to the postpone.
ment of the consideration of the petitions, uatil that House
and the House of Lords had agreed to the Bill of the Hoe.
Member for Liskeard, or to some. other Bill for that purpose.
—( Heat:, hear.) He of on those grounds, in the fisst
pl-ce, that it was the particular duty of that Huse to deals.
who were the leghinia.e representatives of the people, and
nothing could be so unjust as to postpone the determination of
this important ma ter, until they had agreed at to the tribunal
which should be sulosthuted for the present one.__( Hear. )
Secondly, he objected to the proposition, because it would
furnish a most dangerous areeedent, in a new Parliament, for
a majerity to force a decision on a minority as to what shotild
be the nature of the new ttihnnal by which the great questioa
which he had just referred to should be decided.—( Hear.)
The. Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had taunted him
asith an unwillingness to recede from the present system by
which the decision of a contested election pe.iti -n was left to
a Committee of the House. He, in re,oly, would ask who hal
dwelt en the impropriety of leaving the jurisdicion of this
subject in the House I. f Comtnons—who had said that it was
most unfit and " unbecoming to • assemble in great numbers
when the tribunals were to be appointed—wbo had said that,
being connected with party they would act as party men—
and who withdrew a Bill he wished to introduce,-having for
its object the transferring of the jurisdiction to an entirely
IleN tribunal, and voted for a Bill of a very different nature ?
(Cheers.) The only Bill which was now before the House
proposed to leave the jurisdiction of the House of Commons
as it at present was, the persons on the tribunal to be deter.
mined by Ballot ; if, then, this Bill passed, there would be
the same attendance at the Ballot es there was at present.
—( Hear, hear.) There would be the same attention to the
canvass ohich the lienoterable and Learned Gentleman
so much condemned, and to any party object to which the
present system was liable.—( Hear, hear.) He found also
that the Bill which had been adopted by-the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman contained proposals which were directly
at variance with the recommendations of the Committee.
(Hear.) The Noble Lord had also said that he so much dis.
approted of the Bill that he had some important alterations to
propose in various parts of it. He (Sir Robert Peel) ob.
jected, however, that at the beginning of the new Parliament
they should not have eime to give such an important subject
due consideration, if it were to be immediately adopted. and
whicte if ha at proceeded with, would mom probably be
liable to the strongest objections.—(Hear hear.) -Another
great objection of his was, the referring the 67 election peti-
tions to a new and untried tribunal.—(Cheers.) - would
say improve the election tribunal after this session, -divest it as
much as possible of any suspicion of being influenced by party
feeling. He begged that it might not be supposed that he
objected to any change in the constitution of the tribunal
which was I.kely to be an improvement ; it was as much the
interest of that as of the opposite side to adopt an improvement
which was calculated to it sure the impartiality of the tri-
bunal.—( Hear, hear.) Ile might be asked if there was no-
thing of party feeling in the present tribunal ; and ho would
a-k in reply, if that were the case, what advantage could
the minority possibly have over the majority ?—(llear.)
He was, however, willing to adopt a new tribunal, after due
consideration, which should not be liable to the objection of
being au e.r post facto law. With respect to the motion
aesore the Heise, the autherof it apparently shrunk from
the charge of i , althought last night they were assured
that it should be submitted to its attention; but nothing
prevented their immediate decision on the subject but
he illstimed and inconsiderate proposition of the Honeur.
able Member for Southwark. That Honourable Member
sated that on one occasion his return was sent to the deei_
son of a Committee on which lie had only one friend, and he
( Sir R. Peel) had thought that on that occasion the Hon.
Member would not have met with a single supporter.
Tho proposition of tars Honourable Member had no immediate
connectiote with his own rropasal. In justice to his own
proposal -the Honourable Gentleman ought to give a. distinct
notice upon the subject: he ought, too, to press for a deci.
don upo:t the main question, for otherwise he must
think that his own proposal could only lead to a further
waete co-time. This he ought to do, if he believed that the
present question was brought forward in the mere sprit of
perty warfare, and if he ready believed, us he (Sir R.:Peel)
had no doubt he did believe, that it was an ungenerous
motion directed against the Hon. Baronet the Member for
North Wilts.—( Cheers.) Let there not be any pretext
utforded far withdrawing from a decision upoti the question;
for after the amendment had been negatived, ani the main
proposition put, as far as he was concerned; there should bent)
previous question—there should be no appeal to the Order of
the Day.--Cheers.) The simple and the intelligible ground
of the motion was, that an unwise and an unjust act had been
done, and" that he proposed to meet with a positive and direct
negative.—(Loud cheers.) As the Hon. Member for Mon-
much had proposed five or sit cumbrous resolutions, entering
into details, and involving what might be partly truth, it
might on that account have been difficult to have met - there
with a distinct negative, and the previous questionthen
could have been resorted to ; bat when the question was, whe-
ther or not a Committee should, upon a simple statement
of facts, be appointed—and let it be remembered that if not
appointed that night, it cou'd nut be appointed for many weeks
following—when such was the proposition, there was no pre-
tence for taking any other course than that of saying " aye,"
or " no," to the; appointinent of the Committee.—( Hear. )
lie intended to say " no,"--(Cheers)—and this, therefore,
was the course which he meant to pursue. If the Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Southwark persisted in moving
his Amendment, the question put from the chair would be,
thet "the words proposed to be left out stand east of the
question ;" then, in that case, he must have the'infinite as-
tiifaction of voting with the Honourable Member the mover
of the proposition, and of course with the Noble Lord.—
( Laughter.) The Honourable Gentleman must be anxious
to Coate to the decision upo a his osn peoposition. Ho must
think that any impediment that should be thrown in his
way to attain that desirable end, must be exceedingly
disagreeable, i not unfair; a..d of course tie Honour.
able Gentleman must move that his words stand past
of the question. If, then, that were carried in the affirm.
ative, and he thought he could promise the lion. Gentle.
men that they on that side of the House would aid him
in carrying it so far—(Laughter)—then they would come to
decide upon the main question, whether the Committee ought
to be appointed.—( Hear.) As he bad said before, he should
"meet that proposition with a direct and unqualitLd negative.
Either the proceeding which had been so much adverted to
that night was an illegal and unconstitutional proceeding, or it
was one permitted by lass. If the Noble Lord thought that it
was of doubtful legality, and yet dangerous, ho had the remedy
within his hands ; it was not even necessary for him to have
recourse to the Attorney:General on the subject ; but the
Noble Lord could bring in a declaratory Bill.—(Ceeers.)
If it were unconstitutional and a breach of the 1 r vileges
of that House, why did not Honourable Gentlemen meet it
with a direct resolution ?—( Cheers.) But if Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite felt this transaction to be one which they
consider oil to be imprudent arid unwise, and yet which
thee felt to be to7erated by law, then he had to protest,
against the course of r oAeding which they seemed deter.
mined upon adopting. Honourable Gentlemen said that the
argunitm whi h had been used in this debate was a tat
pope argarneni—of course it was.—( Cheers.) His Hon.
and Learned Fiend, in his admirable speech, had show*
that not only was It a transaction tolerated by all parties
at alt times, but that those opposite had sanctioned and
practiced it the mist. On the opposite side they said tie
euchre, but he replied to th •m, tut quoq re, to prior
l tut
q use —(Loud cheers.)T y ha I taeght, and ti ey had
Friendw brcooutnspbltainf:di
w.—(ardLtTed
placurthheterst.e)r
case. Now
Nobleporhaicltiuseudtehiasnd
—if be bad
real the nein s of the co tributors, and-the [encl..
V II: had brought to:ward that case at the time
fed
tlzeyllo
dealgnations they assumed—what a miserable waste of
time it would have been thought ?—(Cneers.) And this
would be the teault if the House of Commons condemned an
act without tho power of enforcing the condemnation—that
not atoll would the parties escape punishmint, but tlee thtif