The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-02 00:00:00

Tint': SUN, LONDoN _ ,

to Ireland as had been imagined.
capital. He could not
should not be fn''vantage to England by findin" --/'".....rrOads had been of great ad.
employment for a large nmount of
see why the plan adopted in England
countries,
...owed in Ireland with equal advantage to both
-• ..rd thereby English capital would have the advantage
~.oyment, and Ireland would derive the advantage of having
....aglish capital drawn into it. What Ireland wanted was not
capital but security. Ireland wanted nothing so much as good
Government.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches)—which she
has been without for centures,—(Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) If security could be obtained II:1r Ireland site would be
as pr. sperms as England is at present, as England ever was, or as
E gland ever can be. But he did not believe it was necessary to
go back to the old exploded systems of the Continental Go-
vernments of the Government undertaking all national works.
If they imitated Belgium he did not see why they shOuld not imi-
tate France, and have the Government interfering in every specu-
lation. He hoped the question would be allowed to pass without
any division, so that they might have an opportunity of well
considering the question before they came to a vote, and
of seeing what the public feeling was on the subject. If they laid
out 2,000,0001. that might be followed by an expend:ture of
B,ooo,ooo.—(Cries of " No, no.") Certainly Members on both
sides of the House had said that if they commenced the speculation
they must go through with it. All Government speculations turned out
failures, whether in regard to canals in Scotland, or canals in Canada,
and he hoped they would pause before embarking in a speculation
of this sort.—(Hear.)
Lord SANDON said that if he considered the enterprise would
produce the results that had been predicted he would not hesitate to
vote for embarking in it, however extensively it might be carried
out; bat they ought to consider whether the expenditure proposed
was the most likely to develop the resources of Ireland
and he thought they had pretty good reason to believe that railroads
were not the means of developing these resources. Were railroads
used for the conveyance of agricultural produce, or for the co.;vey.
ance of heavy burthens ? Every one knew they were not, and
what was the produce of Ireland but agricultural produce ?—(Hear,
hear, hear.) He thought they were putting the cart before the horse
—making a frill before they had a shirt.—(A laugh.) They were
asked to give the benefit of railroads to a society that wanted the
most essential elements of civilizations. It was only two or three
years ago, that a sum of between 1,5001. and 3,0001 was
asked of the House for the purpose of developing the resources of the
River Shannon, and to open the resources of ten counties for 150
miles. But hew were they met las the Chancellor of the Excequer
of that time ? Why, he threw every difficulty in the way, and yet

of em^

I a measure was now proposed for incurring an expense incalculably
beyond that—a measure merely calculated for the carriage of persons
and light goods. If they once began, they must'carry out the prin-
ciple, not only in those parts where there Was a chance of a return,
but they must also carry it out in these parts of ,the country where
the boldest Calculators expected no return whatever. And on whom
would the burden be thrown ? Would the counties of Ireland come
forward and bear the expense? Why should they ? What advan
tage would the remote parts of the county of Cork or the county of
Dcnegal, derive from railroads running through the most populous
districts in Ireland. What right had they to charge those remote
counties, that would derive no benefit, for the advantages that other
counties would gaits ? (Hear.) If the Government were to propose
an extensive measure to develop the water resources of Ireland, to-
open the Suir, the Barrow, and the Shannon, a measure which would
be mole adapted to the interests of Ireland, he was sure the House
would not be slow to enter into the conversion of a grant for such
a purpose.—(Hear.) They ought to have ample time given them to
consider a vote so extensive as this, arising out of the mania of the
day in favour of railroads—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and
not adapted to the peculiar circumstances of the country to which it
was to be applied, and ought not to come to a conclusion too hastily.
He very much doubted whether it would be of any advantage to
Ireland. If this system were to be adopted with regard to Ireland,
it would have to be adopted in regard to Scotland, where thlt returns
would be as uncertain as shey would be in the remoter parts of Ireland.
Hedid not see what advantage could be expected by railroads in Ireland
looking to the peculiar circumstances of the country, when they
found in the country no profit arose except from the conveyance of
passengers.—(Hear, and Divide, divide )

C..p:ain JONES wished to ask the Noble Lord the Secrctaay for
Ireland, whether it was his intention to compel those counties
through wiii:;ll the railroads would not pass, to contribute their
quota; and if the Bill was to be so framed, what sum was it likely
those counties would be answerable fur ?
Mr. ASEITON YATES said tnat nearly half the profit of the
Liverpool and Manchester Railroad arose from the carriage of coals
and heavy goods.

Lord SANDON—It was a mistake to suppose that the profits of
railroads in this country depended upon the transit of heavy goods.
He believed:that few if any coals were carried upon the Live:pool
and Manchester Railway ; and he further believed that, with one
exception, agricultural produce was not carried upon any railway in
England.

Mr. A. YATES, in answer to the Noble Lard, could only say
that only last week the London and Southampton Railway Company
had made extensive arrangements for carrying agricultural produce.
With respect to the Carriage of coals on the Liverpool and Manches-
ter Railway, he would say that that carriage had increased every
year since its establishment, which was not very likely if the Corn-
pany had no profit from the traffic.

Lord J. RUSSELL would say only a very few words upon the
question then, and those merely in consequence of what had fallen
from the Noble Member for Liverpool. He seemed to say that
the agricultural produce of Itelaud would not be carried by Rail.
roads, and therefore that they were unnecessary for that country.
Now the Commissioners had made their calculations, and found that
4i per cent, would be the returns from such Railroads, therefore
the Noble Lord ought to have shown that their calculations were
erroneous; but surely upon that, the first discussion of the mats
ter, it was too much to set aside the whole inquiries and celcula-
Gans of the Commissioners, upon the mere statement of the Noble
Lord, that agricultural produce would not be so carried. He (Lord
J. Russell) thought that the produce of Ireland might be brought to
this country with much advantage by means of a Railway from
Dublin to Cork.—(Hear, hear.) He could not Imagine that the
railroads now existing in Ireland, with great advantage -to the
country, and much advancement of its civilization; in fact he con-
sidered the railroads having been once introduced were essentially
necessary for a country situated as Ireland Was.—(Cheers.) The
Noble Lord said that at present there was a mania foe railroads—no
doubt it was so, and necessarily, because it was found that they
were the best great high roads from one place to another.
It was on the same principle that the Goveruinent now proposed the
vote, as the Hon. Gentlemen opposite had during the last century
granted the money for opening the Highland-roads, and from that
example the Government now found sufficient encouragement to
propose the present advances. The question had not been fu Is
discussed—it was new to the House, and Honourable
Gentlemen required time to consider a question of such
very great importance. Certainly, if such a case—so good a case—
were made out to him (ran the civilization and improvement of
Ireland, he for one would be very sorry to oppose it, without mature
deliberation.—(Loud cries of Divide.)
Sir D. ROCHE could give his evidence before the House on any
Committee that the charge per ton for heavy goods by the Canal
from Limerick to Dublin was twenty shillings, and the proposed
charge by the Railway was only sixteen shillings. He was confident
the traffic would greatly increase—(Divide, divide,)
Lord MORPETII would cert., inly very shortly trespss upon the
Committee, after the very full discussion -which the matter had
already received that evening. He wog glad to find that the plan
proposed by the Government haJ been censured only because it did
not go far olough. He would be very well pleased that this plan of
the Government should be so far successful as to enable them to come
before the House again, and demand further power, but he teas
pleased to see that the only fault found was that they
did not go far enottgh.--(Cries of Hear, hear.) lie merely
wished to assure those Members who thought this was a grant to
Ireland, that if they attended either to his stweinent, or to the reso.
lution, they would have found that it was nat proposed to grant a
single farthing from the public funds under the provision of his
proposition—that a single farthing could be imposed upon the funds
of the empire, they calculated upon the profits Of the undertaking.
—(Laughter) Gentlemen might laugh, but the calculations were
such as they were justified in relying upon, and they made
out' that the profits would at least be four per cent.--
(Hear, hear.) So chary were they not to touch a single 'farthing
of English or Scotch money that they introduced a special prove.
sion, so that if the profits of the works should be deficiete they
imposed an assessment upon the Irish c‘ unties through which the
Railway ran, in order to make up that deficiency. The Govern.
meat were pursuing the same line of policy as was pursued by the
Gentlemen opposite. In the former public works in Ireland they
were secured by the Grand Jury Assessment, and were in the course
bf repayment, and was the House of Commons now to be told that
the credit of the empire should no longet be allowed to extend
national improvement in Ireland; if ;panted upon a security to
guarantee
.a part repayment of the money ? As for the remarks of
the Noble Lord (the Member for Liverpool) he must say that he
was astonished to hear the representative of a district so experienced
in Railway affairs, and olio enlightened a town, condemning Railways
in general.—(Oh, oh, and No, no.) Well, then, he was against Rail.
ways which carried passengers only.—(No, no.) Yes, he deerecated
those successful enterprises that had been spread over the country
as the mania for railways. But he (Lord M.) slid not see why, if
great benefit and profit were derived from railways, which carried
passengers, only those lines should be objected to as regarded Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear). Supposing that as the Noble Lord had said
railways were not able to compete with canals in the conveyance of
heavy goods, he did not see still that those lines should be opposed
on the ground of that inadequacy, The Noble Lord said, that
generally speaking, heavy goods made but a small part of lie carriage
of railway s,—that for instance, coal formed but a small article of
freight. But he could inform him that the fares for the
transfer of coal had been limited. On the Stockton and
Leash= Railway, which was one of the most flourish.
ing, being the conveyance of coals, formed one of the
most profitable items of conveyance.' Did not the Noble Lord
think that the conveyance of live cattle was a benefit ?--(Hear,
hear.) Now this would be one of the principal sources of profit
on the Irish railways. The Hon. Member for Monaghan asked
what he proposed to do with the applicants for the erection of a
line from Dublin to Castlebar. The answer of the Government to
this is, that as that line would not come within their scheme they
would not interfere; neither would they interfere with the pro-
jected lines from Dublin to Drogheda, and from Armagh to Belfast.
If a Company should propose to extend a railway from Dublin to
Drogheda, or from Armagh to Belfast, they should receive every
fair play from the Government. The Hon. Member for Galway
asked whether the proprietors of branch lines would receive any faci-
lity. He replied that they wou'd receive every facility, in proportion
as their communications were likely to be profitable to the main
trunk.—(Hear, hear.) He had listened to the recommenda-
tions of the Honourable Member for Tamworth with all the
respect to which they were eminently entitled, and he was
sorry to find that he was opposed to the scheme. That accommoda.
tion was to the effect that after the experience of the benefit of
railroads they had in England, why would they not leave those works
to private competition in Ireland, as had been the case in England.
His (Lord Morpeth's) answer was, that because so much had been
done in England and soothing in Ireland, the Government Low found
it time to adopt some means by which the State should exert itself
to introduce into that country the benefit of a well organised system
of railways. But he contended that the Right Hon. Baronet had not
affected the demonstration which he (Lord M.) had laid before the
House. If good effects had resulted in Belgium from the Govern-
ment of that State undertaking a line of railway, why should not
it be also beneficial to do the same for Ireland ? The Right Hon.
Baronet said, Can't you do in Ireland as we have done in England ?
His answer was, the Government of Belgium have done better in
their country than we have in England, and now we will imitate
them in Ireland. The Government of Belgium had also established
a cotton factory at Liege, and the best results had ensued. The
benefits from the railroads in Ireland would be very considerable,
although) for prudence sake they had been understated. He had
but one remark more to make. The Right Hon. Baronet had laid
great stress upon that part of the Report that referred to Mr.
Itianconi, and stated that great injustice would be done to that
enterprising capitalist by the proposed line. Now he (Lord Mor.
eil assure the Right Hon. Baronet that that gentleman,
,vih
capital to such extent involved, was one of the etronges
y
of this measure.—(Cheers.) He wished now that no
further delay or opposition would be given for leave to brine in a
alt oi:)chadactud
s
c to
Bill, and then the subject would be most amply considered. This
theco
statementsn et s
s onss:asodfuteh
et octohnnen,
isimportantoners
—nature o ot
the
thee int
esisco tos jteic,f Irelandt,-4i
theLo rgdr eatthen mass
voefd I
froi srh
pl‘elrei ni
gbsei rosn ut)ow
inp racks
ce n
thea— (sCphe
ce
iefir
d)
grant.'sl 'hde due
N o Nob toe
_ . .

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw; but the gallery was
re-opened again in a few minutes, and on our re-admission we found
Lord S ANDON on his legs, stating that he had been desired by
several Hon. Members on that side of the House to reque that the
Noble Lord would not decide upon the subject that night, as they
were desirous not to throw cold water upon the discussion of the
subject.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, if the Bill was not brought in, he would
pledge himself to introduce a clayse, that the Bill should not come
into operation till every one of the Grand Juries of the counties
through which
the line passed, should have assented to the terms
mentioned.

he wished the llouse to do was, to give a future opportunity
of deciding the question, and that they should not now et once
give any final vote, which 'would decide whether the grant should
be made nor net. If the House allowed the matter to be further
considered he ho:wd it would be looked at as a question affecting the
improvement of Ireland.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said if any warmth had taken place it
did not come from that side of the House. If the Noble Lord in-
sisted upon going to a division, be should be compelled to vote
against hint
Strangers were then ordered to •NithilraW.
On a division the numbers were :
For the resolution 144
Against it
Majority --44
Mr. GOULBURN desired that the resolution should be post-
poned till Friday, which we understood to be agreed to.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATION (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord MORPETH moved the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. GOULBURN said he had no objection to the motion pro-
vided the Committee Was deferred to a period when Members con-
nected with Ireland would be able to attend in their places. The
assizes were now going on in Ireland, and would last for a consider-
able period, from which circumstance many Members would be
prevented from attending at present.
Sir R. INGLIS said he should oppose the motion, especially at
that late hour of the night —(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
Sir ROBERT BA TESON said he had presented that evening a
petition from Dublin, signed by 1,000 persons, against this Bill. He
had been looking in vain; for some years, for a Bill which should
reform Municipal Corporations in Ireland, or abolish them
entirely— (Hear, hear)—but this Bill would take the power
from the Protestants, and put it into the hands of the
Roman Catho'ics —(Cheers from thd Opposition) He called
upon the Protestants of Great Britain) and especially of Ireland, to
rally round him to oppose this measure, which he believed was the
first of a series of attempts to beat down the Protestant Church.—
(Cheers from the Opposition, and ironical cheers from the Ministerial
side.) Ile felt the necessity of making a final stand against
further concessions—(Renewed interruptions, in the midst of which
Lord Dungannon and Mr. Blackstone rose, and conceiving the
Rots. Member to have finished, remained on their legs for some
moments, tilt they were called to order amidst loud laughter.)
When be heard of the appointment to the Lord Lieutenantcy of
Ireland, of a Nobleman (immense cheering from the opposition) who
had made a speech in th it House to the effect that he wished the war
against the Irish Church to continue (cheers from the same quuarter)
he (Sir R. Bateson) felt it to be his duty to oppose any further con.
cersions which might lower the power of Protestantism in that
unfortunate Country.—(Cheers.) It was time for the Protestants
of Ireland to look to themselves.—(Loud laughter from the Minis-
terialists, which was increased by the circumstance of Col. Perci
vat's walking into the House at the same time.) He called upon
the Noble Lord not to press this specious measure at such a late
hour as half-past 11.—(11ear. bear.)
Lord DUNGANNON said if no other Member would divide
the House against the Bill he would. He believed the Bill to be an
insidious attempt to put down Protestantism in Ireland, a measure
by which evenhanded justice was not to be dealt out, but one class
of the populatiou were to be scanda:ously oppressed.—(Cheers from
the Opposition—`• Oh, oh," from the Ministerialists.)
Mr. FIUME inquired if the petition of which the Hon. Barone!
(Sir It, Bateson) had spoken was not a petition agreed to at a public
meeting in Dublin , at which the Lord Mayor presided.
Lord CASTLEREIGH—Sir, I rise to order—that is not the
luestion before the House.—(Cries of " Order")
The SPEAKER said something inaudible to us.
Lord CAS MERE A the Hon. Member is asking a ques-
;ion about a petition.—(" Order, order.")
Mr. HUME repeated his question.
Sir ROBERT BATESON—When the Hon. Member sits down
I will answer him

Mr. HUME sai I that at the meeting to which he referred a
resolution was pawed to the effect that the miseries of Ireland were
to be attributed to a system wh ch was idolatrous and damnable,
and that where property existed, there was nothing but anarchy and
confusion. The 'ley. Mr. Gregg, who seconded the resolution,
stated that Mr. O'Connell complained of tl.e poverty of Ire.

land, but he (Mr. Gregg) declared that the curse of God
w•as on the' law, and read the Nth chapter of Deutero-
nomy, as descriptive of the state of Ireland. Now he
(Mr. Hume) had referred to that chapter—(Roars of laughter)—and

in the 16th verse, he found these words," Cursed shalt thou be in the
city, and cursed shal thou be in the field; cursed shalt thou be when
thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. The
Lord shall make the pestilence come unto thee, until it consumeth
thee off the land, whither thou goest." He now asked the Noble
Lord, if that was language which ought to be applied to any party ?
—(Cries of " Hear.") When the people of Ireland saw the Lord
Mayor presiding, and Clergymen proposing such resolutions, what
must be their feelings ? and he must leave it to the House to judge
who were the parties who produced anarchy and confusion ?
Did the Noble Lord think that the Catholics of Ireland could be
exterminated ? Such proceedings could do no credit to
anyl Protestant :assembly. He cou:d tell the Noble Lord that
these Gentlemen had much to answer for—if similar resolutions
had been ag,eed to by Catholic as snblies twenty times as numerous,
what would be the feeling of the Protestants of Ireland?
Sir ROBERT BATESON had never heard of the petition which
the Hon. Member with his general accuracy, and good information,
had referred to. He had never heard the slightest rumour of such a
petition. . _

Mr. HOME—Here it is (showing a newspaper).
Sir ROBERI' BATESON—The Hou. Member might have been
intrusted with such a petition.—(Cries of " Ohl" and laughter.)

The petition he hal presented Was signed by 1,042 inhabitants of
Dublin, not at any public meeting.—(Cheers front the Ministerial
side of the House, re-echoed by cheers from the Opposition
benches.) There was no quoting, or misquoting, or any pre-
fanation of Scripture in it. If the Honourable Member
wished it he would read it.—(Cries of " Read, read," Order,"
and much confusion.) The Honourable Baronet then read the
petition, which stated that the measure for the introduction of
municipal corporations is calculated to transfer the power from the
friends of the Protestant religion and British connection to the
enemies of those principles which had placed the House of Bruns-
wick on the Throne.—(The Honourable Baronet was frequently

errupted by cries of " Chair," "Spke, spoke," &c.)

Lord CASTLEREAGH was very glad his Hon. Friend had an.
swered the question, because it had brought back the House to the
matter before it, which was whether the bill should be passed?—
(An Hon. Member near the Noble Lord said, " It is the order of the
day for the second reading.") That was quite lm naterial.—(Much
laughter.) He would ask the lion. Member opposite whether he
thought the recent appointment of the Nobleman who filled the office
of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.—(Cries of " Question.") The Hon.
Member had referred to the Bible, to the chapter of Deuteronomy,
and asked were they going tti exterminate the Catholics of Ireland.
He (Lord Castlereagh) would ask him whether it was intended to put
down the Protestant Church by that appointment to the
Lord Licutenantcy ?—(Tory cheers.) He would rather net have al-
luded to the subject, but it was now matter of history.—(Much
laughter.) If no other Hon. Member would do it, lie would move
for a copy of the oath taken by the Lord Lieutenant on his ap-
pointment. He would ask whether such an appointment was likely
in any degree to strengthen the Protestant Church in Ireland C—
(lrmiical cheers from the Ministerial li,nclics ) They might think
to put away the question by the cheers of their supporters in that
House, but in Ireland the nomination would be heard with dismay.
There was but one feeling with respect to that appointment—
that it was " a heavy blow and a great discouragement" to the Pro_
testant religion in Ireland. The appointment of the NoWe Lord
war almost the strongest measure that could hate been expected
ei•e!l froth the Hon. Gentleinan opposite.
Lord J. RUSSELL was in hopes, alter whet had passed last year
that they were all agreed as to the general principle of the Bill.
He had understood from the debate that had taken place during se.
veral nights in this House, that with ref3ard to the Irish Corpora_
tions the principle was admitted there should be a Reform
of these Corporations, and the great point in dispute was
relative to the amount of his frat:chlse, and , that, and
various other details could only be discussed in Committee.

But it seemed that a new ground of opposition was to be taken to.
night, and that the whole Bill was to be disputtd, on principle.
He had understood that the question as to the destruction of the
Corporations had been long since settled, and questions of detail

he thought wont,' be _best diseussed in Committee. With
regrrd to the question that had been raised respecting the

. _
absence of Members on the Circuit, he had no objection
to consent to going into Committee, if there were time

EVENING EIYITION,-M_Aji: CH 2, 1830.

opposite justifj and adopt his expressiot! upon a subject of vital im-
portance ? DO2B the Noble Lord adopt t...'nse expressions
Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that he had
nothing to do with
them.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—sDid the Noble Lord 5" he had
nothing to do With then/ Did he not unders.
Noble Lord to say that he adopted them ? He shout,. like•en.d the
to see if the Noble Lord would hare the cour,:le tO
adopt and repeat those sentiments in spite of w.:`ici?
he has introduced on this subject—(Loud cheering VOrre the' eipp?sx: -
thin,) It was such language as no individual ever 4intdred' ft 4
hold on such a question.—(Cheers.) He would read the sPe'edi
of the Noble Lord. (Here the Learned Sergeant redd
the oft-quoted passage from Lord gheington's speech of last year.)
Does the Noble Lord adopt this language? Did the Noble Lord
bring forward his Bill not for the purpose of setting this question
at rest, but for the purpose of making the war against the Protestant
Church in Ireland more formidable than ever. Does my Noble
Lord intend to wage war against the Protestant Church of
Ireland? Was he prepared to declare war against the
Church of England also ?—(Loud cheering.) Are not the
Protestant Churches of England and Ireland united ?
Does the Noble Lord dare to wage war against the Church of
England ? and was it fit or decent to say to that country, after a
period of gross misgovernment—(Cheers) —the effect of which had
been to disjoint the whole of society, to render life and property
insecure—(Loud ghee' ing, which drowned the remainder of the
sentence)—was it tit to appoint to the Government of that country
an individual who had made such a speech as this ? What effect
must such an appointment have on the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Must it not, on the one hand, discourage the loyal add Protestant
population of that country—(Cheers) ; and on the other, en courage
the machinations of the disioyal and disaffected.—(Loud cheering.)
Would it notjincrease the attacks of the Precursor Saciety, and of
the agitators? What other effect could it produce ?—(Mr. ,O'Con-
nell here made a very significant gesture, upon which the Hon. and
Learned Sergeant exclaimed)—l don't mind those gesticulations.—
(Great langhter.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—Nor do I mind. It's no attack on me.—
(Cries of " Order, order," from the Opposition Benches.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
has no right to 'gesticulate in that way.—(Roars of laughter) I
should be sorry to transgress the rules of order and decorum—
(Laughter)—it is not my habit to do it, and I would not have eon,
descended even to take notice of the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen,
if he had thought proper to interrupt me in the regular way.—
(Laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Sergeant then said, to return
to the subject of debate, he would ask what would be the effect in
Ireland of such an appointment ? He would ask the Noble Lord
whether it was reasonable to expect that men should be prepared to
go along with him in his proposition for the establishment
of Municipal Corporations in Ireland; on tt different
fooling, and thereby increasing the power of a certain pdtty
to " wage war," against the Church in Ireland, Was it reasonable
for the Noble Lord to expect that he would be supported in a
measure of such a kind immediately after making such an ap-
pointment? He would conclude his observations by moving that
the House do now adjourn, because he thought it right that this
question should be brought forward at a time when full discussion
might take place.—(Cheers.)
Sir li. INGLIS rose to second the motion, when some Hon.
Member on the Conservative benches must vociferously cried out
" Chair, chair, outer, order," which created immense laughter.
The Hen. Bart. said he would not yield to cries of order, whether
they proceeded from one side of the House or the other, unless
he was called to order by Mr. Speaker.—(Bear, hear, hear.)
He would take the liberty of saying that when the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Ireland moved the Order of ti e day for the second
reading of the Irish Municipal Corporation Bill, he rose h the hope
that the Noble Lord would not press such a motion. His Right
Hon. Friend the Membe: for the University of Cambridge, with
whom it always gave him groat pain to differ, rose and wished that

some compromise might be made, and that the Bill might be allowed
to pass the second reading, but that some time should elapse before
it went into Committee. To that he (Sir Robert Inglis) could
not agree, but he had hoped that some understanding would be
come to, not that the Committee should be postponed till alter
Easter, but that the second reading should be postponed. He stated

this in justice to his Hon. Friend the Member for the county of
Londonderry, and his Hon. Friend the Member for the University
of Dublin. One observation only, with reference to the late appoint-
ment. A complaint had been made that this appointment had been

quesloned, for the purpose of taking the earliest opportunity to create a
prejudice. If they had waited till a later period, the Noble Lord
would have had good reason for saying why had nothing been said
until the Noble Viscount had gone to Ireland ? His Noble Friend
the Member for the county .)f Down, had more reason to remember
than any one, that a Noble person had scarcely been appointed to a
most important office, before advantage was sought to be taken of a
speech made in another place as a sufficient disqualification for
the office.—(Loud cheers.) The course that had been taken was as
fair to the Noble Viscount, who had been appointed as it was then to
the Government —(Hear) —and in conclusion, he begged to second
the motion, that the House do now adjourn.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. and Learned Member for
Bandon had by no means correctly represented what he had stated
in the House. The Hon. and Learned Member had read something
from a newspaper or from some Report, and had said those were
sentiments which he ( Lord J. Russell) had said he meant to abide by.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—From the " Mirrror of Parliament."—
(Cries of '• Order; order.")
Lord J. RUSSELL said that as to those words in the "Mirror
. _

of Parliament," he neither concurred in them, nor did he adopt
any one of the expressions. What he had said was, that he
thought there ought. to be a reduction in 04 revenues of the
_ _

Irish Church Establishment, and that those reductions would be
better effected by the Irish Tithe Bill than in any other way. With
respect to the sentiments that had been alluded to, he had only
said that he agreed with them so far as this—that he thought that
the revenues of the Church of Ireland might be properly reduced,
He did not say even that he concurred in that, nor did he even
now concur in the sentiments that that Bill was likely to
produce any agitation. His opinion at the time 'he Bill was
introduced, and his opinion still was, that that Bill was more likely
to settle difficulties than to raise further contention.—(Hear, hear.)
As a measure of peace he had introduced it, and as a measure of
peace he still regarded )

Mr, BLACKSTONL•' was glad to bear the Hon. Baronet,

the Member for the Univer,ity of Oxford declare that he
would take the sense of - the House on the motion
for postponing the second reading. He trus'ed the Noble
Lord would not at this time of night go into a dis.
cussion of a general qtrcstion. Although he had watched the Bil
for three years. he had never bad an opportunity of expressing
his sentiments, although he had not on former occasions been able
to concur with his friends in voting for the abolition of Corpo•
rations.—(Hear, hear.) He conceived these Corporations were
instituted originally for Protestant purposes, and he was un.
willing that those Frincipks should be passed over Witholit
discussion. He did not wish to enter into the topics which had been
discussed that night, but he did hope the Noble Lord would give them
an opportunity' of discussing the merits of that Bile—(heer, hear.)
Mr. MAX WELL teee einidet loud cries of " Divide, divide."
He promised the House the hand of tile Clock slicnilti not teeth the
quarter (it then being 10 minutes past IC) before he finished lee
observations. De disclaimed against being any party to the
understanding to which the Noble Lord had
hear.) He came into that House attached to no party.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh.) His principles were pre eminently Con-
servative—(Loud laughter)—but he was the representative
of a large and, populous county in Ireland, and he repreeented the
feelings and wishes of nine-tenths of the Protestants of Ireland,
with reference to the subject before the House.—(oh, oh, and
latiehter ) He meant to say that it was tile feeling of the
Protestants in that they would never consent
to those Corporations, one of the principal objects of
which were to protect the rates and institutions, being the means
of transferring power into the hands of the Roman Catholics, Mid
he tenecred his hearty thanks to those English and Irish
Members who had taken this subject in hand.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SIIIEL said the Hon. Baronet the Member for the Univer-
sity of Oxford had announced that lie would take the Sense of the

House on this question. The Noble Lord who followed hied
pledged himself to take the same course. The lion. Baronet the
Memb'ir for Londonderry and the Noble Lord the Memb r for
Down, he understood, had determined to adupt the same course of

proceeding. Might he venture to ask how it came to pass that they
had taken such a step in the absence of their leader, the Itight

fon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth ?—(Cheers, and Hear.)
fe was sorry if he had given offence to the Noble Lord opposite ;