The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-29 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, APRIL 29, 1837.

Lord had spoken of bringing the measure into partial opera-
tion by the establishment of four or five workhouses at first ;
but that would be a gross injustice to those counties where
there were none, as they would have to pay equally for their
erection and support with those who derived benefit from
them. To remedy this it was proposed to pass a law of set-
tlement; but to this he (Mr. O'Brien) objected, because he
did not think it necessary, and because he believed it would
lead to endless litigation. There was an omission in the de-
velopement of 'the measure. The Noble Lord should have
considered whether it was not in his power to improve the
condition of the Irish labOurer by other means than work-
houses. The Irish labourer would, he (Mr. O'Brien) was
convinced, submit to anything sooner than go into one of
them. It was in the power of Parliament to remove the
redundant ►population if the Noble Lord only proposed it.
It could be done by emigration ; and the expense
would be nothing in comparison of the amount laid out in sup-
port of the poor even in workhouses. Asylums might then be
provided for the aged and the infirm poor, and out-door re-
lief should not be altogether prohibited. He (Mr. O'Brien)
did not wish to thwart a measure having- in itself the elements
of utility as the one before the House had, and because he be-
lieved it to be susceptible of conversion into a most excellent
mode of relief for the poor of Ireland. And he hoped the
Noble Lord would let no solicitation, come from whatever
quarter it might, induce him to abandon it on any account. It
was a proper way to begin, notwithstanding its defects. He
thanked the Noble Lord, not alone in the name of the poor
of Ireland, and as their representative, but as an Irish land-
lord ; for every step taken to make the poor happy and com-
fortable gave an additional guarantee fbr the stability of pro-
perty in Ireland.
Loi d MORPETH bad heard with sincere pleasure the
speech of the Hon. Member, and he was glad to find that the
discussion on the second reading of the Bill was likely to turn
'out a neutral ground on which Hon. Members could throw out
suggestions and propose improvements. All that really con-
stituted the essential provisions of the Bill for the poor of Ire-
land was sufficiently established. The appalling destitution of
a great proportion of the Irish people—the pitiable form which
this distress assumed—the heavy and increasing burthen they
daily became to those above them, together With the growing
conviction which seemed to pervade all classes that the time
was come for making some decisive experiment, seemed to
point out a course of general arguments on the subject as super-
fious, and stamp them with the character of " foregone conclu-
sions." To act on the views developed in the speech of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Kilkenny would be to leave the country
in the condition in which it was found ; yet he (Lord Mor-
peth) firmly believed that the Hon. and Learned Member
fully sympathised in the distress of the people. In dealing
with the subject of relief. to the poor of Ireland two chief
courses suggested themselves to the Government for adoption.
The first was to improve and extend the existing institutions
of the country for the relief of the aged and infirm ; to employ
the able-bodied in public works, and to provide on a large
scale for emigration. That was the course recommended by
the Commissioners. He ( Lord Morpeth) felt disposed to
speak with the utmost respect of those Gentlemen as a body;
but that a Government which was bound to attend to the claims
of all parts of the empire should not be able to take up these
general recommendations could not be a matter of great sur-
prise. He gave the Members of that Commission credit for
the most philanthropic viesss ; but, in doing so, he likewise
claimed the same credit for Mr. Nicholls, to whom, he was
sorry to say, the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny had
not altogether fairly adverted. And as he was on the subject,
he (Lord M.) should also take leave to say that Mr. Ma-
honey had complained that a quotation from him, used by the
Hon. and Learned Member, bad been misrepresented. With
respect, however, to the course in question, the fear was that
in endeavouring to open so many sources of legislative expe-
riment the danger would be incurred of damaging all and
serving one. And while destitution was recognised as the
principle there would be a chance of being led into so many
nice details to ascertain its various shades as at the last to
cause any measure founded on it to end almost where it
had begun. The other course, that which his Majesty's
Government adopted as the basis of the Bill before the
House, was to offer relief on such terms as none but the
destitute would accept of. As that principle u folded it-
self, the House would hare an opportunity of devising other
remedies, if those already proposed were found insufficient.
If he (Lord Morpeth) should not find it answer in the
application he shouleObe the first to suggest that the
valves of emigration should be opened; and that employ-
ment in the public works should be also given. With this
view there were already some valuable Bills before the
House, introduced by the Hon. Member for Galway : and it
was his (Lord Morpeth's) ir•tention also to propose, concur-
rently with the poor law, a Bill to extend and amend the sys-
tem of medical charities throughout Ireland.—(llenr, hear,
hear.) He also trusted that his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would not be inattentive to provide
facilities for emigration, should the case become urgent.
00e of the arguments against the Bill under coos' Lion
was the alleged insufficiency of the workhouses to n(ba?rno-
date the destitute poor. It was asked how could they relieve
the distress of 2,300,000 individuals if they only held 80,000 ?
Now he ( Lord Merpeth) did not mean to enter into the ques-
tion as to whether that amount of destitution was an exagger-
ation or not, but he would say that if it were not the rating of
England and Scotland, with all their riches, could not
permanently provide for such a mass of poverty. But
he believed that the account was not sufficiently ac-
curate, as he conceived it to comprehend all persons
in the working class. Now, the Bill before the House
was intended wily to include those who were depressed below
the level of the wet king class, and who could not obtain the

same sort of subsistene. If he (Lord Morpeth) were asked
what security he could offer that none but the very destitute
would apply for this relief, he_w_ou.A‘Eive.,,,q,4rutoterthaeisatrtutti
riiiifiniefic—of the Commissioners than their own words; when
they state that " able-bodied men will endure any degree
of misery rather than make the workhouse their domicile."
It should he remembered, also, in considering the subject,
that permanent relief to ..0,000 or 100,000 poor—those
pressing heaviest on the resources of the community—
was equal to occasional relief to an immensely greater nurn.
ber. The course adopted by the Government was, there-
fore, he contended, the safest one. The experiment would
be sufficiently hazardous, with every possible check ; how
much more so if it had none. The extraordinary power oft he
Commission was objected to ; but it was abs Mutely necessary
that such ample and such elastic power should be given them
for the good of the country. When the lion. Mernber who
had spoken last said that Mr. Nicolls had legislated for Ire-
land on a sixweeks' acquaintance with the country, he did
not make ajust representation of the facts of the ease. As to
the law of settlement it would be very difficult, and not de-
sirable, to establiAl it in Ireland. It was said there would be
a ,-,:reat pressure on the first workhouses that might be esta-
blished, particularly in seaport towns. The guardians, how-
ever, would naturally provide first for their own poor, and would
then take what order they could for other destitute
.poor.
When workhouses were ready, meudicity would not be per-
mitted, and the poor, therefore, would find it difficult to make
their way through intervening parishes to the workhouse. All
ho desired now was to sanction the principle of a legal provision
for the poor, and to meet the Government upon this neutral
ground, determined to forward the great object proposed.
Colonelly CONOLL Y would admit that he at first heard
the mention of Poor Laws for Ireland with some apprehension,
but his apprehensions had reference to the English system pre-
vious to its amendment. The working of the. Poor Laws as
amended had removed much of his fear. Seeing what success
the system, as amended, had in this country, he could no longer
oppose himself to the making trial of a poor law for Ireland.
Laying aside, therefore all party feelings, he was ready to give
every assistance in his power towards forwarding a measure
which would have the effect of affording some relief to perhaps
the most wretched population in Europe. He preferred the,
English system to any entirely new and untried one. The
measure, he had no doubt, would gratify the poor, at the same
time that it' would operate as a punishment upon those whe
neglected their estates.—( Hear, hear.) He would not tres-
pass further at present on the attention of the House, and he
trusted the experiment would prove beneficial to Ireland.
The hour of twelve having arrived, Mr. BROTHERTON
moved that the debate be adjourned to Monday, which was
agreed to.
The Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Half-past Twelve.

shocking the feelings of society, and exciting sympathy for the
offender, are contrary to reason, inconsistent with morality, and
opposed to the interests of justice."
The letter to the City Members was signed by about two hun-
dred electors. The names were obtained within a few hours. Had
time permitted, thousands of names would have been adhibited.
Many persons expressed their disapproval of the punishment of
Death in any case whatever. There is not a doubt that this
feeling is greatly on the increase.
The number of Executions in London and Middlesex, in three
periods, together with the number of Commitments for offences
that were capital, on the Ist of January, 1830, were as follow :
( From a Return made to Parliament, dated March 22, 1837. )
LONDON & MIDDLESEX. I Executions. Commitments.