The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-25 00:00:00

He proposed to amalgamate all these retired lists,
to give the officers a fair amount of retiring pen-
sions, and do away with the professional jealousies
excited by the irregularities of the existing system.
He proposed to reduce the admirals on the list to
60, which did an injustice to no one. The. proposi-
tion was that when an officer passed the age for a
given rank he should retire to the rank above it. It
was also proposed to reduce the list of captains from
350 to 250. It was found that not more than 120
were employed, and this reduction would give all
the captains the opportunity of frequent service, or
if not, of retiring. The number of all classes of
officers in the active list he would reduce to 1,313
from 1,753, and would prevent its further increase.
The hon. gentleman then objected to the lowness
of the pay, and brought forward several examples
of the hardships and difficulties forced upon
officers in command by the necessities of their
position. He pointed out the startling differences
in the remuneration of the naval officers of Eng-
land, France, and America, showing that the lowest
American pay was considerably more than the
highest English.
The motion having been seconded by Sir J,
ELPHINSTONE,

Lord 'PALMERSTON rose in answer to general
calls and observed that he was willing to do justice
to Sir John Hay's motives, but censured the course
that he had pursued in and out of the house. Mili-
tary and naval bodied should not become delibera-
tive assemblies to force their own views on the Go-
vernment: It would be impossible to improve the
condition of naval officers without including the
men, which would entail changes in the army, and
involve an enormous increase in the expenditure.
He thought it very undesirable that the the house
should interfere with the functions of the Executive.
The two first resolutions were so vague that, if
passed, the. Government would be perplexed how to
carry them out. The third he did not think de-
sirable, owing to its effect in increasing the public
expenditure. The Government had no objection to
a select committee on the subject. The noble lord
therefore concluded by moving as an amendment,
the appointment of a select committee.
Sir I. ELPHINSTONE cordially supported the
motion, and hoped if a committee were appointed it
would be a fairer one than the last, which satisfied
neither the public nor the service.
Admiral DUNCOMBE commented on the prepon-
derance of Government supporters in the committee
of 1861.

Sir R. CLIFTON supported the motion.
Mr. BAILLIE COCEIRANE doubted as to some parts
of the scheme, but highly approved the ability and
sagacity of its general outline.
Mr. FERRAND asked how naval officers were to
obtain redress if they were forbidden to appeal to
the House of Commons.

Mr. BENTINCK reminded the House that the ma-
jority of the committee of 1861 were persons con-
nected with the Admiralty.
Lord CLARENCE PAGET replied to Sir John Hay'e
speech, and declared his scheme to be the most im-
practicable and unfortunate that had ever been pro-
pounded. It would reduce the list of commanders,
although, if we required to send ten line-of-battle
ships to sea, it would be impossible to find officers
to command them.

Sir J. PAKINGTON was persuaded that a satisfac-
tory system was impossible until the principle of
retirement by age was adopted throughout the ser-
vice. He had moved for a commission in 1860, and
had been defeated, but the motion had been carried
the year following against the wish of Lord Palmer-
ston. The conduct of the Government was most in-
consistent; they seemed afraid to grapple with any
difficulty. Our naval officers to be effective must
be contented, and the present dissatisfaction was
proved by the refusal of officers to take the command
of ships, because they could not afford them. Under
all circumstances he advised Sir J. Hay to accept
the compromise, and withdraw the motion in favour
of Lord Palmerston's amendment. After some dis-
cussion the original motion was withdrawn and
the amendment carried.

Leave was then given to bring in several bills,
among them one by Sir G. GREY, to make provi-
sion concerning bills of exchange and promissory
notes payable in the metropolis on the 7th of
March next.

The Prince and Princess of Wales Annuities
Bill passed through committee.
In answer to Mr. NEWDEGATE, Lord PALMER-
STON said the Princess Alexandra united all the
necessary qualifications for a Princess of Wales.
The House adjourned at half-past ten until Thurs.
day next.

The debate last night on Sir JOHN HAY'S motion
on the State of our Naval Officers shares the fate
which we had predicted—Lord P_ ALMESTON'S
amendment to have it referred to a committee
having been carried. In fact the noble lord con-
sidered that the complaints of the officers
amounted to a breach of naval discipline.
If the first Minister of the Crown really
thought so, why did he not order the
whole batch to be tried by a Court Martial
and so bring out the true facts of their alleged
grievances, and award the proper punishment for
such disobedience of conduct ? The 'noble lord
knew better. He admitted that the question had
been brought before the House some years
ago, and that a Committee had sat long and
often, so long indeed that true to the
practice of all Government Committees on
grievances they spun out the inquiry to the end
of the Session, as in duty bound, and separated
Iwithout making any report on their proceeding,.
That Committee was composed of eminent members
of the House, and, better still, had the singu.
lar advantage of rejoicing in the company
of all the First lords of the Admiralty
for years back —in fact, of all living
first Lords—men who sat and acted on that tribu-
nal as judges, prosecutor?, jurors, and defendents,
all in one, to try their own case! Was ever such
a disinterested tribunal so constituted before
And now the noble lord proposes to reconstitute
the same board to try another and the same board
as to what shall not be done. They may
inquire and inquire, and remark on the
evidence and adjourn and meet, adjourn
and reassemble again and again, but all to little or
no purpose. Sir JOHN HAY wished to amend the
present unsatisfactory position of naval officers as
to promotion and Pay remarking, as to pay, that
in the French and American services—the one was
paid 44 per cent, and the other 200 per cent. above
our own. But Lord PALMERsToN said that if the
Navy demands were granted—the Army, the Civil
Service, and even the Law would be up
and demanding similar remuneration for their re-
spective
services, which would increase the taxes, 1
at which people were now becoming very impa_
tient, no doubt from their ignorance of what taxa-
tion should be. All this may sound very plausible
to men in office, but it is cruel to those who have
cause complain of real grievances. And that there
is just cause is acknowledged by the noble Lord
proposing another committee on the subject.
As the Navy List has been swollen by previous
promotions to an enormous degree chiefly to satisfy
the clamours of party, the evil is now becoming so
pressingly felt, that recourse to some remedy is in-
dispensable, in order to alleviate the grievance. Age
is considered by Sir JOHN HAY as the fairest cri-
terion for all parties, whatever be or have been
their services.
time the He thinks that in a short
application of this principle would
work beneficially
as well as fairly to all concerned
—and we think
so too. The Board of Admiralty
itself has been long considered as a national grie-
vance with its dockyard waste and abuses—its
party patronage and its individual irresponsibility
—all sits misdoings being referred to the system
it is dumb to any charge of corruption, work-
ing as before just as if nothing were

amiss ! Why not have a Board of Admiralty
so constituted as to be wholly independent of party,
and responsible to Parliament and the country for
the faithful discharge of its public duty ? Such a
Board would save the country ten times the amount
of money that is now required to satisfy the rea-
sonable demands of the service in officers and men.
Sir JOHN ELPHINSTONE spoke in an effective
manner in support of the motion, and referred to a
letter of Lord NELSON'S in 1802 on the matter, in
which the gallant seaman referred to the subject,
quoting the following lines from an old writer at
the end of a previous war :-
44 Our Goa and our sailors We alike adore
In tims of danger, not before :
The danger past—both are alike requited—
GOD is forgotten, and the sailor slighted."

Ever so now. Nor will all the sophistry in
the world palliate injustice. It may ward
off the evil day, but only for a time,
till necessity command that justice which, if
conceded with grace, would have conciliated dis-
affection, and, like virtue, become its own reward.
Let us hope that those in power now may yet act
as they would be done to themselves when out of
command. Let them be just and fear not.

It is satisfactory to notice that the House of
Lords has decided to take time to consider the ques-
tion of the proposed railway station in Finsbury-
circus. It is always undesirable to interfere with
those localities which afford the means of fresh air
and exercise to the toiling workers 'who so much
require it. Finsbury-circus has peculiar and par-
ticular advantages which ought to be set against
the claims of those who wish to destroy it as it at
present exists. Lord DERBY forcibly put the case
before the house, when he said that " their lordships
would doubtless hesitate before they agreed
to any measure apppropriating Berkley-square
to such a purpose, and he did not
think it was fair to make laws for the east-
end which they would not do for the west." What
would be of little real consequence t 3 those who
can at any time afford to take change of air, and
spend a great part of the year out of town altoge-
ther, becomes of vital moment to those who are for
the most part fixed in one locality during their
whole lives, and who, however unpleasant or un-
comfortable the sphere of their labours may be, are
compelled to accept it as an inevtable necessity. As
a writer on the subject truly observed in discours-
ing on the crowded and inconvenient localities
where the poor for the most part congregate, " they
seem destined to know no other homes than these
till they are called upon to enter the
common home of our race." Now, if these
poor people are deprived of the means of getting
fresh air in the only place of access in their densely-
populated neighbourhood, the consequences will be
very deplorable. It has been said that railways in
' poor neighbonrhoods were the means of affording
freer circulation of air, by opening up crowded
places ; but this argument cannot hold good in this
instance, since the plan proposed is to build on the
only open space that appears for a considerable
distance. It is very desirable that time should be
taken to consider this scheme, in conjunction with
the other projects of railway traffic in the
metropolis. Another point to which Lord
DERBY referred was, that the greatest con-
fusion would prevail if the House of Commons
proceeded upon one set of standing orders with some
railway bills, and their lordships' house went upon
a different set without reference to the merits of the
bills submitted to them. "He would venture to
suggest to the Government that there should be an
alteration in their lordships' standing orders, and
he earnestly hoped that the Board of Trade would be
called on for a special report not only upon the
merits of each bill, but as regarded the vast net-
work of railways projected, so that the conve-
nience of the public might be properly considered.
He would also ask whether it might not be possi-
ble so to group the different railways as to bring
under the attention of each committee the rail-
ways specially connected together, whereby
the committee would be able to exercise a
better judgment upon the merits of each scheme."
This proposal of the noble Earl seems based upon
sound policy, and it is to be hoped that this or
some similar plan will be adopted, or the really
admirable proposal of metropolitan railways will
result in disappointment to those who are plan-
ning them with so much energy and spirit, and
prove sources of annoyance and discomfort to those
who expect to derive benefit from them in so many
ways, both
.as regards time and convenience,
in which respect the travellers by the pre-
sent modes of city transit suffer so considerably.

The sympathy expressed by the French for the
Poles redounds to their credit, while it must be a
great consolation and encouragement to that out-
raged and afflicted people. A petition in favour of
the Poles has been presented to the Senate by M.
SAINT MARC GIRARDIN, bearing 2,000 signatures.
' The report of the committee upon this petition will
shortly be made, and will afford an opportunity for
a further expression of feeling. The French press
is unanimous in its opinions. Le Constitutzonnel of
this morning declares its conviction that the uni-
versal reprobation which has been ex-
pressed throughout Europe with regard to
the convention between Prussia and Russia
is reassuring, for it renders it almost impossible
that it should not be abandoned. Against it, says
this semi-official organ, are ranged all humane and
generous sentiments, right, justice, and equity, and
at the present day there can scarcely be found a
Government so ill advised as to go directly against
public opinion. The voice of Europe is at present
a warning ; the Prussian Government could hardly
desire to convert it into a menace. Another journal
remarks that Russia is powerless, Prussia an
inefficient ally, and the occasion is therefore favour-
able. Let the three great powers hold the same
language at Berlin, and they will be listened to.
Nothing, as has been justly observed, has so well
served the cause of the Poles as the interference of
Prussia. The convention of February has put the
climax to the conscription.
According to the rumours on the Bourse, the
Prussian Cabinet has angrily refused to listen to
the remonstrances of the French Ambassador. This
may very possibly be premature, but we have little
hope that the Prussian KING and his Minister, so
well matched in obstinacy and shortsightedness,
will listen to the voice of reason. The Monitour
preserves its discreet silence, committing the
EMPEROR to neither side. This would seem to
indicate that he is waiting the result of his diplo-
matic overtures before he indicates his future
policy. Russia and Prussia should both take
warning by this ominous silence, for neither are in
a position to defy the Western Powers. Prussia is
threatened with a Parliamentary crisis—Russia is
awaiting the eventful 3d of Marcia. The control
and pacification of their own subjects are quite as
much as the respective Governments can accom-
ternal com-
mploisthio; whn,ayod, thperno,vsohkoeuldthteheyhoesxtciliitteyin
of stronger
Powers, by persisting in their present headstrong
and hopeless course ?

The House of Commons will not sit to-day, in
consequence of a general desire on the part of hon. mem-
bers to be present at the first levee of the Prince of Wales.
The courts of equity will rise at 12 o'clock.