The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-25 00:00:00

had been at their disposal, partly for the schools undo.
the National Society, and partly for the British and
Foreign, and supposing it had been intended to
make a change in that grant, then there might have
been something said against any such change. If the dis-
posal of this money was left to a Board of Treasury, that
Board might be constituted part of .roman Catholics, and
then the objection on the other side might apply. Then
they might have had a tolerable argument, but as it was,
they had not. The great objection to the plan was
that it might be the means of giving education other-
wise than according to the Established Church.
(Hear.) This difference had not now occurred for
the first time ; it occurred at the formation of the Foreign
School Society. There, with great industry, Joseph
Lancaster formed a school, of which the chief object was
to afford instruction to the people at a cheap rate, and he
being one of the Society of Friends, and the others
joined with him being Dissenters, it was laid down
as a necessary condition that persons of every re-
ligious persuasion should be admitted to the school.
and not only Protestant Dissenters, but Roman Catholics,
as well as members of the Established Church, were ad-
mitted to the benefit of their schools. And it was when
this was known, that George the Third sent large contri-
butions to Joseph Lancaster, for the establishment of
these schools. Members of the Royal family also
contributed to them—the Queen, the Dukes of Kent,
Cambridge, and Sussex. Fora while it seemed to be the
general opinion that in founding schools it was desirable
that all classes of Christians in this country should be
enabled to send their children to be educated in the same
school, and that there was no insuperable objection on the
ground of difference of religious creed. But after a time
those who differed from this opinion set up schools
of their own, under the name of the National
School Society—and he (Lord John Russell) had
in his hand a volume of the Reports of the I3ritish and Fe.
reign School Society, in which there was a correspon •
dente which took place soon after the formation of that
Society, relative to an attempted union of the two Institu-
tions. The Societies had both branches at Canterbury,
and the British and Foreign School Society requested
his Royal Highness the Duke of Kent to apply to his Grace
the Archhishop of Canterbury, to permit the junction of
the two. His Royal Highness accordingly made the
application, adding that he was p.rsuaded the Committee
of the British and Foreign School Society, would use
their most careful exertions to promote the greet object
of the institution. Ills Grace, in reply, said that
the regulations of the Diocesan Schools, of which
he was the .Patron, demanded the use of the Chtnea
Catechism, and that therefore it was impossible that he
should accede to the wish expressed by the " Royal
Lancasterian Institution," that the use of that Cate-
chism shouNi not be required in the United School.
From that time therefore, that effort having failed, the two
Societies had gone on, each on its cwn principles, but
each anxious for the general advancement of education.
What the Committee of Privy Council had proposed
to do was, to apply to those two Societies the greater part
of the funds which shOuld be alltated to them, but they
would not refuse to receive applications from schools
in any populous or poor elisrsicts where it might seem
education was more peculiarly required —( Hear, hear.)
Neither would they lay down as a principle that they
would altogether exclude other schools which tended to
the increase of religion and morality, merely because they
did not belong to the British and Foreign School Society, or
the National School Society. It was on these grounds,
therefore, that he asked for this vote. He could say for
himself, as he said the other night, that it appeared to him
in the education of .the people of this kingdom generally,
the principle which would be most likely to obtain the sup.
port of the greatest number would be the principle
stated so clearly by the British and Foreign School
Society, that of teaching the Scriptures during the week,
and allowing the children of each denomination to go to
their respective places of worship on Sunday.—( Hear,
hear.) The National Society could not subscribe to that
principle.—( Hear, hear.) What he ( Lord John Rus-
sell) believed those who were opposed to him in-
tended was, that no school should be supported by
the State, unless it was immediately connected with the
Church—that was really the object.—( Loud Ministerial
cheers, and expressions of dissent from Lord Stanley and
Sir Robert:Peel.) He did not believe the Noble Lord, or
the Right Hon. Gentleman had that object in view.—
( Conservative cheers ) The Right Hon. Baronet had
given him a lecture, the other night, on the danger
of open questions. Now he ( Lord Russell) did not
mean to deny there might be those dangers which the
Right Hon. Baronet, who had had experience on these
subjects, had pointed out to him, tut still it might be a
question whether, if there was any great difference among
a party, it was not as well to avoid that difference
(Cheers)—and to say we do hold different opinions, and
not by means of getting a vote on some bye question—
on some incidental matter, to conceal that very great
difference of opinion that does prevail on the other
&de. —( Cheers.) The Noble Lord the Member for Dar-
setshire. and the Hon. Member for Newark had stated
their opinions in debate—and they would never be wanting
in ability to sustain those opinions, or in fairness to avow
them—and be did conceive that the opinions they stated
were entirely at variance with the opinion which the
Right Hon.,Gentleman and the Noble Lord had expressed.
Therefore, although it might not be an open question on
she other side, he conceived that the real difference be-
tween them was, whether they should put the whole
education of the country into the hands of the
Established Church, or admit that liberty of education
which was sanctioned by his late Majesty, and by his
Royal Highness the Duke of Kent, and which certainly
the present Ministers were disposed to think was the only
principles upon which education ought to be supported.
The question was then put that 30,0001. be granted to
her Majesty for public education in Great Britain for the
year 1839.

Lord. MAHON said he felt it his duty to meet the
motion with a direct negative, and in doing so he
thought it necessary, after what had fallen from the
Noble Lord, to explain that his objections, and the
objections of other Hon. Members on that side of the House,
did not apply, in the slightest degree, to any grant for
education intended and directed upon right principles. He
could scarcely conceive that any person could have so
utterly misunderstood, or industriously misrepresented the
statements on his side the House.—( Opposition cheers.)
Let the Noble Lord put them to the test. Would he con-
sent to move for the same vote as last year, and upon the
same principle? Let him move even a much larger grant,
conducted on the same principles, and he would
then ascertain what the opinion of that side of
the House was. He called upon the Noble Lord
not to forget what he seemed to have done, and
which was most expressly stated by his Noble Friend,
the Member for North Lancashire, that his main oh.
jection was not to the grant coming from the Treasury,
but to the alteration in the principles of its application.
He again repeated that if the Noble Lord would propose
such a"vote he could venture to promise that there was not
a Member on that side of the House who would not give it his
full and cordial support. But if the Noble Lord would
not take that course—if he told them that that vote of
:30,0001 , which he now proposed, was to be conducted
and confirmed upon the minute of the 3d of June,
if he found that minute of the 3d of June con-
tained v:•ithin itself the power of reviving the
former minute of the 13th of April, and if he found
these two minutes closely connected together ; and if on
the other hand, the forms of the House precluded him
from bringing forward a vote of moving on the
principle of last year, then he repeated that he
had no alternative, and it became his solemn
and bounden duty to give a direct ❑egative to
the vote now before the House. Ile must say,
that in the late debates which had taken place on this
question, many unfounded aspersions, similar to those re-
peated by the Noble Lord, had been thrown out by Gen.
tlemen on the other side against the zeal of those on this
(the Opposision) side in the cause of education. The
Hon. Member for Liskeard had said that the whole of this
side of the House were opposed to the education of
the people. A Learned Judge, (the Member for
the Tower Hamlets), thought fit to pass sentence
against them on this point, but he gave judgment in a way
very unlike what he did elsewhere—he gave kidgment
without hearing or considering the evidence. Had those
Hon. Members looked over the list of subscriptions given
by Gentlemen on this of the House for the endowment of
schools and the instruction of the poorer classes?—

( Hear, hear.) He respected the man who gave 50/. to a
school, or who devoted ten hours to its superinten-
dence, infinitely more than one who was content
with merely giving a vote at the Board of Education, or
placing his name in the ranks of some society. There
was many a man professing the most philanthropic views
on behalf of the Tartars or the Chinese, who would button
up his pockets when he saw a beggar in °lir streets. What
was done practically for education was the best proof of zeal
for the cause. He would yield to no man
a zeal for the enlightenment of his fellow
countrymen, but he must consider it an
indispensable requisite that intellectual enlightenment
should go hand in hand with religious instruction. If
they were not combined they had better do nothing. Ile
would now come to a calculation on this point well worthy
the consideration of the House. Ile alluded to some
statistical tables by Guerie with regard to the state cf
education in France, which showed the importance not only of
having schools, but of conducting them on right principles.
(The Noble Lord then read the opinion to which he refer-
red ) Those, then, were the two main principles which
governed the views of those who sat on that side of the
House. His first proposition was, that they should endeavour
to extend education ; and his second proposition was, that
education would not prove effectual unless it was bas 'd
upon the principles of the Established Church. In bath
these respects he thought the Government plan was de-
ficient, because, while it professed to extend education,
its real effect was to put down the exertions that were =k-
ing on behalf of education. As to the first, the Govern-
ment plan was limited to the minute of the 3d of June; the
former plan was not abandoned, but postponed till there
was a greater concurrence of
_opinion. Who were to judge
of that? Why, the very Committee of Privy Council,
who had affirmed the plan. There was no security so
long as this scheme was not abandoned; or so long as it
was only postponed. If the security provided in the present
case was no safeguard for civil rights, it could be no safe.
guard for religious rights. A great disadvantage of inter-
rupting the ordinary supply to the two Societies was, that
the stream of private benevolence was thereby stopped.
The National Society had received from Governmei:t
120,0001., but th It amount had drawn 250,000/. from
voluntary subscriptions. But what was the reason
for pressing this new plan upon the nation, vi:Lh a
bare 'majority in that House for it, and an incalcu-
lable majority in the country against it? Even bene-
ficial measures ought not in a free country to be pressed
against public opinion. And if the Government plan were
not so objectionable as he believed it was, be (Lord
Mahon) should oppose its being forced upon an unwilling
country; for let it be recollected that though laws, how-
ever unpopular, might be enforced a system of
education, if contrary to the public feeling,
would
be inoperative.—( Hear, hear.) The parents would not
send their children to the schools; and thus the effect
would be, not to forward, but to retard education.—
( Hear, hear, hear. 1 It was a* delusion to think
that the Goverment plan was so general, much