The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-13 00:00:00

quire sure that in every instance in which a pupil of the
School of Naval Architecture had been found to be as well
qualified as his rival, whoever that rival might be, the
balance would always incline in favour of that pupil. The
fo :i7tVC; ,It,Cl-1',2C1 a aI7CAt (tfill more
tiAto its just value called ibr to that scboA. He nail s‘iirl
that before the time of that school, the vessels which were
built in this country had been built by the Rule of Thumb.
Lord HARDWICKE said that what he had stated
was, there did not exist a naval: architect regularly
educated in this country, and that therefore the ships
were built by ;ha Rule of Thumb.
Lord iviiNTo would take it for granted that no charge
of inefficiency would be brought against the present Sur-

veyor.
Lord HA RD WICK E--You have used Chapman's
work, you have used the work of a Swede, you have no
work of your o.vn.
Lord M INTO was not about to dispute whether that
was the fact or not. He understood the Noble Earl's po-
sition to be that our building of ships, so far as it was
original, was unscientific. He would take it that the
Noble Earl might be disposed even to say so of the present
Surveyor. It did so happen, however, that three of the
hest ships that had ever gone out, or ever been launched
from the Regent's Dock-yard, were the work of tV7O un-
instructed, as the Noble Lora would 'call them, naval offi-
cers, the one the late Admiral Hayes—a man of infinite
merit ; the other the present Surveyor of the Navy : and he
(Lord Minto) would answer for it that if the Noble Lord
would inquire amongst all those who had been in the
Fleet, whether French officers, English officers, or Rus-
sian officers, he would be told, as he (Lord M.) had been,
that the Vanguard was the finest man-of- war that had
ever sailed the seas. It had been his business to consult
not only the most experienced officers, but all others from
whom he could suppose from their station he could obtain
information, and he meant to say that he had not heard of '
any of the ships built oven by Professor Jurnau, which
exceeded the ships he had alluded to. He did not think
it was necessary for him to say more in, reference to the
School of Naval Architecture, because he was not respon-
sible for the abolition of that school ; but the Noble Lord
seemed to think that the gentlemen of that school had not
exactly met with fair play. Now, he would say that
that he did not like to put a much younger man over an
older man, who bad been labouring in the same service with
them. It was not that the pupils of the School of Naval
Architecture were not eligible for those offices; but there
were a number of highly educated officers who had ob-
tained their education out of it, and whose claims to those
offices were much stronger. Those gentlemen were gen-
tlemen of great merit, and he was sorry that the pupils
who complained should not sac that themselves. He (Lord
M.) meant nothing but the most kindly feelings and ex-
pressions towards them, and entertained nothing but the
most anxious wishes to promote their advancement; but he
could net say that because they came from the School of
Naval Architecture, they were to supersede other officers
who were in all respects much better fitted to fill the offices
than they themselves. He had to apologise to their Lord-
ships for having taken up so much time. He was not aware
of the Noble Earl's intention to have brought this subject
forward at this time, otherwise he should have brought
down documents, and been better prepared to give informa-
tion on the subject than he had been able to do on this
occasion.

Lord HA RDWIC K E observed, that what he had meant
to say was, that they had no original science, and that they
were borrowing from others, whereas they might them-
selves raise men by education and cultivation of the science,
who ought afterwards themselves to produce scientific plans
and improvements in the architecture. This country had
not:one such man. Mr. Chapman—the Swede, was sup-
posed to be the best architect that ever existed. The
Noble Lord opposite had said, as he ( Lord H.) understood,
that not one man-of-war built by our superior class of ship.
wrights was worth anything. But had the Government
given to any of those shipwrights leave to build their ships
as leave had been given to Captain Symons, on his own
lines and his own tonnage?
Lord MINTO could only say, that a very few months
before the lamented death of Admiral Hayes he did make
an offer to him to build on his own lines and his own ton-
nage. The tonnage was not the restriction that was
thought the most judicious to be put upon the builder;
the most wholesome and useful restriction was, that he
should carry certain yards and sails ; so many mouths'
provisions, and build his ship. If he built her too large
for her masts and sails, she was good for nothing ; if he
built her too small for her masts and sails she was as bad.
They had allowed every man to build his ship as he thought
proper. subject only to these restrictions ; that she should
be a ship to carry certain men, certain yards, certain sails,
and certain provisions.
Viscount MELVILLE, who was very indistinctly heard
in the gallery, bore testimony to the present high charac-
ter of the British Naval officers in point of professional
information. On no former occasion did they stand in so
high a position ; and, if the present system were aban-
doned, he did not see what substitute the Noble
Lord could introduce. He recollected well that after
the young gentlemen left the Naval College, certain ques-
tions and mathematical examinations were distributed to all
ships in commission, and the Captains of those ships were
ordered by the Admiralty to distribute them and send back
the papers after having been worked by the midshipmen.
The consequence was that this system compelled the mid-
shipmen to go on with the routine of the College educa-
tion, and when they came to stand their examination as
Lieutenants, they were enabled to do it much more effec-
tively. He did not think that at any period the officers of
the British „Navy stood in a higher position in point of
naval knowledge, and he hoped his Noble Friend would
contribute all in his power to the maintenance of that su-
periority. He believed that the School of Naval Architec
tare, had been established upon too high and expensive
a scale, but if no means were taken to provide a
substitute for that school, he would tell their Lordships,
the officers of the navy whose duty it would here-
after be to survey and report upon the state of their
shipping, would inflict a heavy and serious blow upon
that department. The French had been always superior to
them, and had always built better ships, in consequence of
their surveyors having received a very superior education.
The subject was one of the deepest importance to the
country, and he hoped it would meet the serious considera-
tion of her Majesty's Government.
Lord MINTO begged. to apologise for offering one or
two observations. He could assure his Noble Friend that
no one was more anxious than himself, perhaps few so much
so, to raise the scale of education in the Navy. He quite
agreed with what had been said by his Noble Friend of
the extreme importance of the subject. He believed
their naval officers were much more highly educated than
formerly, but still there was room for very great improve-
ment. He should have stated, after mentioning what had
been done with regard to providing schoolmasters, that
that part of the system was not yet at work, but he hoped
it would be in a few months, and it had only been delayed
by his extreme anxiety to retain the services of gentlemen
sufficiently well qualified. The system was partly a re-
vival of the college in another shape. The objection which
he had formerly felt to the College was, that the instruc-
tion commenced at a wrong period of the young gentleman's
services, and that it would have been better after six years'
service at sea. He had therefore last year obtained an
Order in Council for the establishment, in the first
instance of a small school (and he was sure his Noble
Friend would agree with him that it was necessary to go
gently in the first instance), which was intended to be
combined with that of the Excellent. The Excellent be-
ing the chief school of gunnery in that country, in which
the elements of mathematics were also taught. The ad-
vantages of that system might be afterwards extended ;
but the scientific education at present given on board ships
was limited in its operation, and few could go through it.
It was intended that the course of gunnery instruction on
board the Excellent should be most strictly followed out,
and the system would be such as to enable any officer,
on application, to have his examination. As he
had before stated, the delay was owing to the
difficulty lie had of satisfying himself of the qua-
lifications of those applying for the appointment. Such
was a mere outline of the plan proposed. With regard
to one other point on which great stress had been laid—
the examinations supposed to be carried on on board ship,
after the young gentleman had left college—he had taken
some pains to ascertain what the instructions were, but he
had not yet been able to satisfy himself on that point.
Lord COLCHESTER felt called upon to offer a few
observations with respect to those questions which were
distributed to captains of ships. These papers were re-
ceived on board the ship which he had the honour to
command, and he believed an Admiralty order ex-
isted for sending them every month on board his
ship. The papers were regularly worked, and they
were only returned in the event of the ship being
put into commission and paid off. He presumed that what
was done in the case of his ship was practised with respect
to all the others. He understood that schoolmasters were
appointed en board all ships commanded by Post-captains,
and that the discipline and instructions were regularly kept
up among the young gentlemen. In his time they were
taught to rig and unrig, to load great guns, and row boats,
and that he thought was as much as could be expected from
13 to 15 years of Age.
After a few further observations from the Noble Lord,
which were totally inaudible in the gallery, the subject was
opped,:andtheHouse adjourned shortly after seven o'clock
utnil Thursday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—FEn. 12.

The SPEAKER took the Chlir shortly before Four o'clock.
Dr. LUSHINGTON was introduced by Mr. Thomas Dun-
combo and Mr. R. Fergusson, and took the oaths and his
seat for the Tower Hamlets.

parochial ministers, which did not teach the cate-
chism of the Church of England, and in which the school-
masters were not churchmen. The British and Foreign
School Society, ou the other hand, said that they
thought it desirable that the Bible should be taught in all
their schools, but did not allow of any catechism in their
schools, nor of any restriction upon the peculiar de-
nominations to which their schoolmasters belonged,
allowing them to be Churchmen, Independents, or
Baptists as taste might dictate, or the merit of the in-
dividuals indicate. Now between these twp principles
there was so aside a difference that after consulting seve-
ral persons who held each of those different opinions—
into the propriety of either of which he did not
no:m enter—he had come to the conclusion that it would
be hopeless to endeavour to induce them to concur in
any one united plan by which they would both he satisfied.
H. ( Lord J. Russell) must, however, say, that he did
not think such a plan ought not to be liable to the
difficulties which were felt with espect to the plan which
was first put in force by his Noble Friend opposite (Lord
S:anley). In Ireland there was a very great distinction
between one portion of the people and another. They
did not consent to read the Scriptures in the same version,
and those belonging to one religion required a comment on
the Bible which the others contended ought not to be ad-
mitted. With such a wide difference undoubtedly it was
extremely difficult to form any united system of education.
At the same time he ( Lord J. Russell) thought that this
system had met with great success, although it had
been iacumbered with such difficulty. In Eng-
on the contrary, the Roman Catholics did not
form any great propoition' and the only other sect which
did not agree in the general reading of the Bible, and that spe-
cies of expounding it which was necessary to the young,
were the Unitarians, who did not form a considerable
number. It was therefore to be supposed, that as far as
religious distinctions were concerned, there would
not have been the same difficulty in this country
as in Ireland, in forming a united society or
plan on the subject. But they must not judge
by what might be supposed abstractedly, they must take
the objections put forward by each sect, which he sought
insuperable. lie now came to the plan lately propounded at
public meetings, and which had been very lately propounded
at a great meeting in the metropolis, which, as he took it,
irriOed that the whole education of the country should
be confided to the Clergy of the Established Church ;
that no education ought to receive any countenance
or assistance from the State, but that which
was carried on under the immediate superintendence
of the Clergy of the Established Church, by which its doc-
trines would be taught and enforced. Now, he must say
that it did appear to him that the propounding of
such a plan at the present time, so late in the
history of the country was, interposing a very serious
obstacle to the general education of the people.—( Cheers. )
It was no doubt she intention and the plan of the eccl:-
siacical leaders of the reformation in this country, that as
the Roman Catholic religion had imbraced the whole people,
so the Protestant Established Church should likewise em-
brace the whole population of the country.—( Cheers.)
That such a plan was not successful was well known. He
need not go into the causes—causes which were founded
on the doctrines of the Reformation itself. The result
was—after very long struggles, and after the punishment
and deprivation of those who dissented from the doc-
trines of the Established Church the result was
ls_et The very first act of the Revolution of 1688
was to establish the Protestant Dissenters of the
country by the Act of Toleration. There was after
this another period in the history of the Church, an
era to which we all looked back with pride and satis-
faction, he meant the era of the establishment of the
House of Hanover on theethrone. At that period these
restrictions were swept away, and freedom of education
established, therefore from that time the Church should
not alone receive donations from the state, but education
should be free, not only to persons professing- the
doctrines of the Established Church, but to persons of all
religious denominations.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
These principles were carried still further by the Acts
1826 and 1829, which granted relief to the Dissenters
and to Roman Catholics. The Church would no longer
be said to stand in that exclusive relation to educa-
tion, or to the general disposal of political power in this
state, and education, instead of being conducted on ex-
clusive principles, must be conducted on the principles of
general liberty and equal participation among all parties.
Undoubtedly the subject of religion was of paramount
importance in education, but religion constituted only
a part of education; and looking to the advantage
of the people,- they were bound to consider whe-
ther they could not extend the other portions of
education to the people, instead of confining the
assistance given to those exclusively of the establishment,
he thought they should extend education to the whole of the
people, and not exclude the greater portion of them from the
benefits of education. This was an assumption which the
State did not recognise or encourage, that any education
but that carried on by clergymen was at variance with the
general principle of our law, and also at variance with the
present state of things.—( Hoar, hear.) Another part
of the subject was, it was confessed on the part of the
friends of the Church, of these formerly connected with
the party in power, that there had been a considerable
neglect of the education of the people—( Hear, bear),
arid that it had not been extended in proportion to the
event of population; they had allowed that great flood
of population to cover the surface of the land, and had
not taken care that education should keep pace
with it: Had this really been neglected ? By no means.
Not only the Clergy of the Establishment, but Protestant
Dissenters were most laudably zealous in giving educa-
tion, and extending to the people of these countries those
doctrines, without which they would have been in a
state of uninstructed being. —( Hear, hear.) After
_the Protestant Dissenters had done all this—after they
had erected some ten thousand places of worship, it
would not be just, now, to deprive them of the
power of carrying on education, and to say to them the
State now engrosses the education of the people, and
will not by any means suffer it to be extended,
but through the medium of the Establishment.
But that plan was not at all view, for it differed not
from what had been done by persons of the very
highest authority in the country with regard to edu-
cation. The first large society which was formed

wasting the valuable time of the public in unnecessary dis-
cussions in that House, and the economising of time,
which was considered so serious a matter, should not be
lost sight of.
Mr. PA CKI NGTON presented a petition from a place
in Leicestershire, for the support of the Ecclesiastical
EAablishinent in Canada, and praying that the security of
the Protestant faith should be provided for. Also a peti-
tion from the parish of Simonburn, in Northumberland; to
a similar eff,ct.

Mr. Ritchie, from the Commissioners of the Northern
Light Houses presented papers.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS presented a petition from the Com-
missioners for improving► the town of Manchester, praying
for leave to bring in a Bill to enable them to make further
improvements in that town.—Referred to the Private Bill
Committee.

Mr. GRANT presented four petitions from parishes in
Inverness-shire, in favour of Church Extension h Scotland.
Sir M. WOOD presented a petition from the Society
for the Protection of Religious Liberty__a Society over
which several distinguished Members of this House had
presided—praying for the removal of the civil disabilities
of the Dissenters ; also a petition signed by 300 influential
persons in the ward of Cripplegate, praying for a repeal of
the Corn-laws.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON presented a petition from
a place in the county of Roscommon, against the na:
tional system of Education in Ireland; and a petition from a
parish in the county of Galway to the same effect.
Mr. ROUND presented a petition, praying the House
not to sanction any alteration in the existing. Corn-laws.
Mr. KELLY presented six petitions from Ipswich, pray-
ing the House not to sanction any system of national edu-
cation which is not founded on the Scriptures.
Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition from De-
vonpert, signed by 3,000 of the inhabitants of that place,
praying the House to take the Corn-laws into their imme-
diate consid?ration, for the purpose of effecting such altera-
tion! as would ultimately tend to their total abolition.
Sir EDWARD CO DRINGTON supported the prayer
of the petition.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from the inhabitants of
B. rentford and its vicinity, signed by 350 individuals, stating
tat the Corn-la,,vshad a terrific effect on the population there,
by compelling them to sustain life by consuming inferior
and spoiled provisions, which produced disease amongst
teem ; that factory children, in particular, suffered more
injurious effects from the Corn-laws, than from any other
Legislative enactments that had taken place, and
that such a public robbery as was comprised in those
inns, ought not to be continued ; that commerce
was shackled by those laws, as on their account
the people of this country, could not compete with
foreigners. The petitions prayed early alteration in
tease laces, with a view to their tut al reoval.
The Hon. Member then presented a petition from Peter-
head, signed by 702 merchants and manufacturers, and
they referred principally to the fact that the general
industry of the country was interfered with, and
arrested by the stoppage of their foreign trade, and
that that was mainly attributable to the Corn-laws.—
( Hear, hear.) That the price of food was unnaturally
and unjustly raised in that country, and that, being
every way injurious to the trade and commerce of Eng,--
land, the petitioners prayed they might no longer be per-
mitted to remain unrepealed. He presumed, according to
a late resolution of the House, that lie was not permitted
to state whether he agreed or disagreed with the sentiments
in the petition.

for the purposes of educating the youth of the
country, was he belived, the British and Foreign School
Society, and among those who prominently came forward
in promoting that Society was the Duke of Kent, the
father of her present Majesty ; but at the head of
the subscription list stood the name of George lII.
(hear, hear, hear,)—that monarch granted an annual sum
of 1001. towards the funds of the British and Foreign
Society. That subscription was continued by George IV.,

by his late Majesty, and was continued even to the present
day.—( Hear, hear.) He could not conceive then
that a system which excluded the catechism, supported
by so many sovereigns—supported by the Sovereign of
the present day—he could not conceive why that system
should be wrong, and that they should give in to the doc-
trine now propounded, that no encouragement ought to be
given to any system, but that of the most exclusive education
For these reasons the Government had been unable to
adopt any general plan of education which would found
new schools throughout the country upon principles in
which both Churchmen and Dissenters might join or were
likely to join. He f, r one was not sorry that these efforts
for the education of the riving youth had been made ; on
the contrary, he rejoiced at it—he rejoiced to see that in
the present year the National Society l'ad sent out queries
and collected information which would all greatly tend to
the improvement of their schools. He equally rejoiced
to see the endeavours that had been made in most—he
might almost say all of the dioceses in the land. Those
endeavours were most praiseworthy, and he was not with-
out some disposition to flatter himself that the declaration of
the Government that they were anxious to promote edu-
cation among the people, had led to many of those endea-
vours; at all events, whether that were so or not, be re-
joiced to see so much zeal and activity upon such an im-
portant subject. But not being able to adopt either of
those plans it appeared to the Government that the best
way was to proceed gradually, and in the first place to en-
deavour to establish some body by which any exertions to
be made in the cause of education might be deliberately
considered, maturely weighed, and, at last, finally adopted.
lie knew that during the last Session the Hon. Member
for Waterford (Mr. Wise) had expressed an opinion
that there ought to be a Central Board of Educa-
tion. If it were composed of persons of diffe-
rent religious persuasions, it certainly would riot
be a Board which would command the confidence of the
Church, therefore he thought it better that they should
form that body, call it Board or Committee, or what they
would, not of persons belonging to one party or another,
to one creed or another, but of official servants to the
Crown, so that it should depend upon the confidence of
that House whether the system should be supported or
not. He saw that his Noble Friend objected to the plan.
as it would be hopeless to attempt to form a Board of
different persons who would agree in their opinions,
nothing remained but to constitute it of persons
who, having been already official - servants of the
Crown must always be responsible for their conduct—
( Hear, hear.) He had, therefore, by the command of her
Majesty, proposed to the President of the Council that he
should be the head of a Board or Committee of Privy
Councillors, not more than five persons, who should con-
sider in what manner the grants of money made by this
House from time to time might be distributed. He had
therefore addressed a letter to the Marquis of Lansdowne
and he had agreed with the other official persons named
to undertake, if the House of Commons should make a
granthuld forho
necessarythat
conduct thee measures which
s
objects • Now, with re-
spect to these measures: taking a grant of 20,000/. the sum
voted last year—but he wished to the grant increased
o purpose,
for
the t o
in viw
see
by 10,000/., making it 30,000/. —%;lat
The measure which
t were the measures
which would be most desirable?
would be most desirable in the first place was the este-
blichment of a good normal school._.( Hear, hear.)
Whatever might be the religious differences of the Church
and the British and Foreign School Society there were
questions not at all touched by tnelr differences, in which
persons who had attended very much to the subject of edu-
cation would find both of them
defective,. and that there
were modes of instruction some of which were used in
foreign establishments, and others which were practised
in establishments in this country, by which educa-
tion had been very much improved, It would
therefore be the endeavour of this body to lay the founda-
tion of a normal school, and to make this normal school as
perfect as possible. The four objects to which,
generally,
it might be said that the education of persons should
be directed, would be, first, religious instruction ; secondly,
general instruction; thirdly, moral instruction; and,
fourthly, habits of industry, and the learning of some
trade or occupation.—( Cheers.) All these were matters
upon which many suggestions had been made from time to
time, upon which many plans had been formed, and upon
which, perhaps, there WAS much to he done before a perfect
5% stem could be established. But this he might sav,
that the instruction hitherto given in many of
our schools proceeded upon a false assumption,
when it supposed that reading and writing with
some of the elements of religious instruction did, in
fact, form education.—( Hear, hear.) He thought there
' was a good deal of that shrewd sense which belonged to
t him in an objection made by Mr Cobbett to popular ode-

Gencral EVANS pre;entcd a petition from West-
! minster, pra)ing the House not to renew a practice which
was considered a serious blow to the popular party, that of

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY,-EITENING EDITION,-FEBRUARY 13,

cation, of which he was a decided enemy. He said,
" What is the use of taking a young boy, the son of a la-
bourer, and teaching him his letters? Give him a cart-
horse—you will see him go up to a gate, and if he cannot
get upon the cart-horse without getting upon the gate he
will get upon the gate and then get upon the cart-horse—
that is the education for an agricultural labourer." Now,
this observation of Mr Cobbett's was not without its sense,
because they wanted to teach not only reading and
writing, but to inculcate habits of industry and
improve the moral disposition —they wanted not
merely to have a child who at eight or nine years
old knew how to read, and at fifteen or sixteen had
utterly forgotten it, but they wanted to instruct a person
in the duties of his station—of those duties which he had
to perform, both to God and to man, and likewise in the
skill which was necessary to enable him to attain that com-
petency which could alone carry him through life. He
thought, therefore, in this respect, that a good Normal
school, founded upon the best and most approved systems,
would be a very great advantage to the whole of this
country, even though it were carried on at an expense of
no more than 400/. or 500/. a year. He believed they
might have a school of that kind, which would be so
useful_which would be so superior to the ordinary
methods of education, that those who visited it might after-
wards introduce in their own neighbourhood many of the
rules and practices which they had found so established.—
(Hear, hear.) He would not read any part of the letter
which he had addressed to the Noble President of the

Council, but he would read that part of the reply which
announced the Noble Marquis's intention with respect to
any plan which this House might be prepared to carry out.
The Noble Lord then proceeded to read the letter in
which the Noble Marquis expressed his readiness to dis-
charge his share of the duties of the Board, convinced as
he was of the importance of the objects proposed, and of
the improbability of their being satisfactorily accom-
plished without the assistance and superintendence
of her Majesty's Government. At the same time,
he begged to state at the outset, that the
establishment of a Normal School was the most pressing
and important of these objects, and as its being the most
necessary step to the attainment of the rest; and also the
strong conviction which he entertained that it ought to be
the positive condition of such an establishment that it
should be provided with sufficient teachers to enable it to
give such religious instruction as was afforded by the
Church of England. The letter concluded thus:—" The
children whose parents belong to other religious denomi-
nations known to prevail against a considerable portion of
the country, end who may be desirous, and ought to be
enabled to receive spiritual instruction from their own
teachers, undsr the authority and coatroul of their own
religious denominations, such a system of instruction v.-as
indispensable to the benefits which all ought to receive;
combining with the most approved species of education,
the most proper foundation on which it ought to be based."
The reply was, " I am commanded to appiise your Lot d-
ships- that her Majesty has been pleased to approve of the
course you have taken."—( Hear, hear.) Now, supposing
such a sum voted by this House, there might be other
objects provided, should funds be found sufficient by which
encouragement might be given to education, as by making
grants to the teachers in providing the selection of school
books, and distributing them in the country schoolss, and
by various other methods promoting the great cause of
education.—( Hear, hear.) He (Lord John Russell)
had stated what step, he thought ought to be taken
on this subject, but having so done, although upon this
occasion he had no immediate proposition to make, and
probably might not for some time make such proposition,
it might be desirable to introduce a Bill upon the subject
of education.—( Hear, hear.) With the objections which
he stated, and which he considered did prevail asrainst. the
establishment of any one system of education, he thought
that possibly the best thing that could be done would be
by grants, either out of general funds or out of local funds,
to he provided for by local rates—to the different existing
schools, whether, under the superintendence of the Church,
or other bodies—which should receive assistance from
those grants from time to time.—( Hear, hear.) He
thought by such means Parliament might be able to obtain
a general view of the amount of education given, and of the
nature of that education, on both of which points there was,
as he had stated,at present considerable difficulty.—( Hear.)
Ile thought it would be possible, likewise, under such a
plan, to introduce schools which should be established
either by some peculiar body or by the Guardiansof Unions,
for the purpose of infant instruction. He confessed that he
did not see, although be had heard it stated, that children
from three to seven years of age could receive: any im-
pressions injurious to the religious faith to lab-kb their
parents belonged, if they were to receive general education in
common at that early age. He thought that the instruc-
tion which could be given in the Bble to children, from
three to seven years of age, might be given without its
being necessary to point out to them the difference be .
tween the Established Church and the Indepen dents, or
between the Baptists and the Presbyterians.—( Hear,
hear.) Perhaps he might be told that it was impossible
to have any education given in common, but if it could be
done, he was persuaded that Infant schools were among
the most useful institutions--( Hear, hear)—and it would
be a good foundation for a system of education to provide
means by which those infant Schools might be more gene-
rally established—also providing that where there was a
a difference of religious faith, separate schools would be
attended from the age of seven years and upwards,
though up to that age, the children should meet
under one common instructor; this he believed would
materially benefit and increase the means of educa-
tion in this country, in fact by the habit's of mora-
lity, of control of temper, end of kindness and love to-
wards one another, which might be taught in these schools,
the children might be so improved that after they had
received a more general education they would be virtuous
and valuable members of society.—( Hear, hear.) Lord
Bacon said that ";custom is made perfect when it toeginneth
in young years. "—(Cheers.) He (Lord John. Russel!)
certainly did conceive that the most simple lessons of re-
ligion, and the most simple habits of morality, might be
taught to children from three to seven years of age, with
out raising any of those great points of theological differ-
ence which had been adverted to.—( Loud cheers.) He
had now stated the general views of the Govern.
ment with regard to education ; he had stated that
it was not the best plan that could be produced—it was not
a thoughtless plan, but one that had been brought forward
upon mature deliberation, and one which he considered prac-
ticable in the present state of the country. He thought,
looking at the manner in which education was promoted in
all foreign countries—on looking at the manner iii which it
was rendered essentially necessary across the Atlantic, that
the time was come when this country should net remain
idle. —( Cheers.) He felt that a plan of combin ed union
of education was impossible, but he thought that re plan of,
education solely for the Church was exclusive and. intole-
rable. It was therefore necessary that some plan
should be proposed. When he had been proposing plans
for different modes of punishment and trial, that it was,
incumbent upon them not to leave unfilled th at great
waste of instruction and education which would give an
opportunity to the youth of the country of learning what
their religious and moral duties were ; so that if after-
wards they should fall into vice and crime, and the Go-
vernment were obliged to put in force against them the
harsher provisions of the law, they might at least say that
they had not committed the crime because they were un-
instructed, but that they did it with a knowledge of their
duties towards God and man.—( Great cheering.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said he should not have of-
fered a single observation on the excellent speech of the
Noble Lord, had be not stated that the system of educa-
tion which had been brought forward by the Member for
Lancashire had met with signal success in Ireland. Be,
Mr. Sergeant Jackson, was fearful that the Noble Lord
was under a delusion on the subject, and that he load not
read the Reports of the Committees of that House with
respect to education in Ireland, because if he had he would
have dis Covered that instead of-meeting with signal suc-
cess, it had entirely failed.—(Cries of " No, no.") He
(Sergeant Jackson) would say " Yes, yes," and he would
prove it before he sat down. One of the principal objects
the Noble Lord had in view was to unite the children of
Protestants and Catholics. Had that been effected ?
Clearly not. How many Protestant children did the House
suppose were in the National Schools of Munster? Why,
only 146. ( Hear.) How many in Leinster ? Only
598 ; and in Connaught only 277 ; so that the
grand total of Protestants receiving education in three out
of the four provinces was 'only about nine hundred. Novo,
he would ask this Noble Lord whether it was fair in such
a state of things to state that the system of education intro-
duced by the Noble Lord (the Member for Lancashire)
had been attended with signal success?—(Hear, hear.)
And it appeared further before the Committees of the
House of Commons that the schools in those provinces were
almost entirely under the controul of Catholic clergymen.
—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) having
bean charged with a great number of petitions on this sub-
ject, felt that he should have been wanting in his duty if
lie had allowed the statements of the Noble Lord to pass
unnoticed.—( Hear, hear.) He was quite aware that
the plan had originated from the best possible motives.
He considered that it was most desirable that the Roman
Catholic and Protestant children should be united in their
education—( Hear, hear)—but still the plan had not suc-
ceeded. A great outcry bad been raised against the Kil-
dare-street Society. Now, with respect to that Society, it
appeared from the returns that there was a majority of
Roman Catholics in the schools of that Society. Even
with all these circumstances militating against them, not-
withstanding all these trials and persecutions to which they
were subjected—notwithstanding the difficulty they had in
finding inspectors, there were at this moineet upwards of
1,000 schools in connection with the Kildare-street So-
ciety, the majority of whom were ROMill Catholics, and
they had succeeded in keeping them under the most dis-
advantageous circumstances. With regard to the national
system of education, the Protestant Clergy cannot con-
scientiously give in their adhesion to that system. He
begged pardon of the House for thus troubling them, but
he felt lie should not have done his duty had lie not en-
tered into these details.—( Hear, hear.) .
Sir ROBERT INGLIS would not be tempted by
anything that had fallen from Hon. Members to carry
this discussion out of England into Ireland. He thought
that it would be sufficient to limit our attention to the sub-
ject as it had been brought forward by the Noble Lord:
His Noble Friend had discussed this subject with his usual
temper and talent except on one occasion. He had lost
his temper—( Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial
benches, which drowned the remainder of the sentence.)
He thought he lost his temper when he made use of
the term " exclusiveness," to which he was doubtless ex-
cited by the cheers from that side of the House,
when he alluded to the possibility of combining
the education of Dissenters and Churchmen. With
all that we have heard on the subject, with all the tracts
that have been circulated, not, certainly, exactly by the
Noble Lord himself, but with the support and approval of
those who were in the habit of supporting the Noble
Lord, he felt satisfied, because the scheme contained so
little additional mischief. He could never praise his Noble
Friend in his political capacity, except that in his plans
with relation the Established Church, he had not done the
Church so much mischief as he might have done. The
Noble Lord repudiates both plaits. He rep
repudiates strongly
hat system of compulsory education which its admirers
would fain introduce into this country in imitation of the
Prussian system, and which he justly describes as alien to