The Sun.
London, England, 1839-11-06 00:00:00

COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL

Yesterday a Court was held for the despatch of pub-
'l;: business.

CORONERS CHARGES AND EXPENSES OF PROSECUTIONS

AT THE CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.

Mr. ANDERTON called the attention of the Court
to a return which had been made to an order of the
Court of Common Council of the 4th of October, 1839,
of an account of the expenses of the office of Coroner
for the last nine years, by which it appeared that the
Coroners' charges upon the funds of the Corporation
had, in a few years, increased three times in amount as
' formerly ; as, for instance, from the 30th of July, 1830,
to the 30th of July, 1831, the sum paid was only 250/.
163. ; whilst from July, 1838, to July, 1839, the sum
paid was 853/.175. Bd. He did not impute any blame to
' the Coroner, nor did he mean to say that the increase
of expenditure could be avoided, but he did think that
it WaS a fit subject for inquiry, and for that purpose
he should move that the return be referred to the Ad-
ministration of Justice Committee, as he should also
move for a return which had been made of the amount
• charged upon the funds of the Corporation paid for pro-
secutions, witnesses, and Counsel's fees, since the
operation of the Central Criminal Court Act, which
came into operation on the Ist of November, 1834,
and by which it appeared that in this department
also the charges were yearly increasing, and with
every appearance of becoming more heavy, unless some
check were put upon them.—( Hear, hear.) By the
return which he then held in his hand it appeared,
that in the year ending the 31st of December, 1834,
the sum paid was only 6081. I3s, whilst in the year
ending the 31st of December, 1837. it amounted
to 1,009 L 15s. ; and in the last year, 1838, it had in-
creased to the large sum of 1,7841. 13s. For these rea-
sons he moved. " That the returns made by order of
tl;e Court of Common Council of the 4th of October,
1830, of the expenses of the office of Coroner, and of
the amount paid for prosecutions, witnesses, and Coun-
sel's fees, since the operation of the Central Criminal
Court, be referred to the Administration of Justice
Committee to investigate, examine, and report the
causes of the increase of the expenditure which ap-
pears by the above returns, and whether any and what
means can be adopted to reduce the future expenditure
in the above departments, and to make such further re-
port in the above several matters as the Committee
shall see fit, with power to examine any of the officers
o': the Court, and such books, papers, and documents
.13 may be required."
After some observations from Mr. STEVENS and other
members, the resolution was unanimously agreed to.
BETHNAL-GREEN PROPOSED NEW CHURCHES.

Mr. R. JOHNSON, Chairman of the Corn, Coal, and
Finance Committee, in bringing up the report recom-
mend;ng a grant of 1,0001. towards the erection of the
ten proposed new churches, schools, and parsonage-
banns in Bethnal-green, regretted that the other
urgent business of the Court ha occasioned some delay.
Such indeed was the favourable impression made upon
the Court en the presentation of the petition by Mr.
Fowell Buxton and others, that it was a doubt with
him whether the Court would not at the moment have
;teceeded to its prayer. He hoped, however, that the
interests of the petitioners had not suffered by the dis-
cussion and scrutiny the subject had undergone in Corn-
rntiteee. He moved that the report be then read.
It was accordingly road, and it appeared that the
expense of the proposed buildings and endowments had
been estimated at 75,0001.—that 30,0001. had already
been raised, and consequently 41,0001. was required. It
appeared also that the patronage of the parish belongs
t., Brazenose College, Oxford, but an arrangement had
LPen made by which the Bishop of London was to have
the first presentation to the ten new churches ; and the
report concluded with recommending a grant of 1,0001.
in aid at the fund for new churches in Bethnal-green.
Mr. R. JOHNSON having moved that the Report
be agreed to,
Mr. HOOLE rose to oppose the motion. He could
not at all see how the members of the Corporation
eould think of appropriating so large an amount of their
funds to such a purpose as that of building churches.
He snould have no objection to apply the funds of his
constituents to charitable purposes or to the diffusion
of education amongst the poorer classes, but to give
1,0001. to build churches was a proposition so monstrous

that he could not for a moment think of it without sur•

prise and indignation. The Church of England stood
in no need of assistance from the Corporation of Lon-
don, and the Dean and Chapter of St. Paul's and of
...

Westminster upon being applied to, replied, he under-
stood, that the funds intrusted to them were intended
for very different purposes. He considered that the
City funds were in the same predicament, and he should
therefore move as an amendment, that the Report
should lie upon the table.---(Hear, hear.)
Mr. STEVENS seconded the amendment with a great
deal of pleasure. He was aware that it was the fashion
to charge those who objected to the erection of addi-
tional churches with infidelity, but he was determined
to brave this imputation. He considered that religion
was a most essential blessing, but it appeared to him
that_it was an essential part of religion to appropriate
the funds entrusted to their care to proper and le-
gitimate purposes. He could not easily find a more
intoroper application of the City funds than that which
the Committee had just recommended. Could any-
thing be more preposterous than building ten new
churches in the parish of Bethnal Green ? If, in-
deed, the sum were proposed for the furtherance of
some great charity for the benefit of the poor
of the neighbourhood in which it was pro-
posed to erect these churches, he would, for the sake
of human nature, consent to the proposition, but he
must reject a plan which, under the pretence of being
a boon to the poor, was actually intended to afford sup-
port to ten clergymen, and those clergyman of a sect—
for the Church of England was, after all, nothing but a
sect.—(Hear, hear.) It was in the power of that
Church, the dignitaries of which were rolling in their
earriages, to pay for the advancement of its new interests.
The present motion did not mean the relief of the poor
of the extensive district of Bethnal-green, but to give
affluence to ten persons, and if the Court agreed to the
recommendation of the Committee, they could not con-
t.eientiously refuse a thousand pounds to assist in the
erection of ten additional meeting-houses.—(Hear.)
Mr. STACEY supported the amendment. He had
asked the petitioners at the bar, when the petition was
~resented, whether the present churches were fully
attended, and the reply was that one of the churches was
I.,r,ge that it was quite impossible to fili it.—( Hear,
h"ar.) He begged to call the attention of the Court
to Cue rejection of a petition to assist in the education
of the poorer classes. Now education, in his opinion,
ongitt to precede the erection of additional places of
v%,,rsitip ; and he would rather give 1,000/. towards the
education of the poor than 1001. towards the building of
churches. Besides, the Members of the Court should
into ect.sideration the fact that the Corporation had
ul e:,l3r voted 500/. in the cause of church building.
Mr. Noanis stated, that being a member of the Com-
ir:t.eo to t.hich this petition was referred, he felt it
u his duty to make the Court acquainted with a
few of the facts of the case.—( Hear, hear ) It came
•-ut in esidence before the Committee from the peti-
tio "ers themselves, that there were at present, in the
district referred to, not only tenantless pew.; and un-
„ocapied pulpits, but that places of religious worship
übstantial edifices, ready built, had been offered
petitioners (the projectors of this building
;;;cul,ltilit) for sale ; for at present it was a mere
speculative project, no two stones being as yet laid
upon the other—projected, not to appropriate
churches' and chapels now waiting for pastors,
but fo raise from 70,000/. to 100,0001. to build new
The: projectors further proposed that out of the
um thus raised a portion should be set apart as an en-
dowment for the incumbent ; the patronage necessarily
helouging, with the mother church, to the college of
B rase n dse, Oxford. The moral and religious benefits

ones

a:isi;ig from the exercise of patronage thus appertaining
to 1;:ew collegiate authorities was pretty fully evidenced
(Mr. Norris's)judgment in the oddities, vagaries,
an:i ciiaraetcristics of the incumbent of the mother

c RINI), the Rev. Joshua King.—(Great cheering.)
If a benevolent effort been made in a distressed

district, where an edifice or edifices were partly
riiscd, the promoters were in difficulties to com-
plete them, and no unoccupied places of worship were
near them, it might be a case for the consideration
of the Court ; but when no effort had been made except
that of beggieg, no building had as yet been commenced,
I nor its site even chosen, and when many places of wor-
ship were shut up, and, as one of the petitioners stated,
had been offered for a small sum, and could be readily
ovule use of, and whilst another bad become a deposi-
tory for Hanbury's porter, instead of books and the
' means of religious instruction, it did appear to him (Mr.
Norris) a very ill-timed proposition to give 1,0001. to
raise and endow new structures.—(Hear.) And
the proposition became the more unwelcome when it
/vas remembered that it was proposed to give away
j.,0001., whilst the Court could only boast of a balance
Lf4B:l. 3s. 3d. in the hands of the Chamberlain on the
th of the past month.—(Hear, hear.) The question
could stand over, at any rate, without prejudice, until
the promoters had their object in a more forward state.
Mr. RODGERS said, in allusion to the remark of the
last speaker, which was to the effect that he would Wait
unti the Church had made an effort of its own, he
would tell that gentleman that a grand effort had al-
r,ady been made by Churchmen. Ha_clino_t.lo,oool.
1),,) granted by the Metropolis Churbch.ldFingndaddsi,toioonoali
by her Majesty's Commissioners for building
Churches? and 15,0001. by voluntary
subscribers?—
(Hear, hear.) Was this no effort on the part of the
Church in furtherance of the great object the Society bad
ie view?—(Hear.) What the Bishop of London had to
do with the Rector's vagaries, or why the Right Rev.
Prelate's name should have been introduced into the dis-
cussion, in connexion with the name of the Rector, of
whom he knew nothing, he could not divine, unless it
was done with the usual motive of wounding the
Church through the person of one of her brightest orna-
ments.—( Hear, hear.) The project had been adverted
, as a speculation—speculations were not usually un-
dertaken without a view to profit, and he was at a
loss to discover whence the profit was to arise in the 1

present instance ; he looked upon it that the only profit
to be derived, and that not a pecuniary one, was by the
j dark and destitute population of the district.—(Cheers.)
Another gentleman had said the existing Churches
were not fully attended, as to two of those he could of
' his own knowledge contradict the assertion ; but the
state of the present Churches formed no part of the
question, the object of the Society being to plant
Churches in those parts of the parish which presented
neither Churches nor Meeting-houses ; the poor man
it was well known would not travel far to Church, and
if they desired to make the indigent Church-goers, they
must erect places of worship at their very doors.
The worthy deputy for Bishopsgate had demanded
upon what principle, if the Report should be
agreed to, could the Court reject a similar application
for aid towards the erection of ten Dissenting Chapels,
the property of the Corporation not being applica-
ble to one particular sect ! He would tell him why he
should prefer the grant in question ; it was because
that grant was to go in support of the Established
Church—a Church which was!part and parcel of the
British Constitution.—(Hear, hear.) The grant should
have his best support.—(Cheers.)
Deputy PEWTEESS said, that the Court were bound
to give education to the poorer classes ; but they ought
to take particular care that their benevolent institutions
should not be applied in an improper channel. There
was a time when the property in the hands of the clergy
produced the most disastrous effects ; and abused as
the spoliation of the Church had been, that spoliation
gave rise to great benefits, for the Church had dried up
all the avenues of trade and commerce. There was
danger in allowing property to belong to the clergy,
except upon the right principle. If he was sure that
the money proposed to be voted would be applied to
the legitimate object be would have no objection to
the grant ; but he apprehended a different application.
Mr. BOWER was for the grant. He considered that
wherever the Christian religion was preached it must
do incalculable good. He was for giving liberally to
the poor man's Church.
After some observations from Mr. Burton, Mr. Hale,
Mr. Bedford, Mr. Anderton, and Mr. King,
Mr. ASHURST said that there was no ground for
calling the Church of England the poor man's Church ;
for sh compelled the poor man, who had not the power
to support his family, to pay rates for the purpose of
supporting the Establishment.—(Hear, hear.) The
petition was that of a sect, and it asked not merely for
money to build churches, but to support ten clergy-
men.—(No, no.) The ignorance of the poor in Beth-
nal-green was great ; and on a recent occasion 300 out
of 600 of them were found not to be able to write their
own names. Now, the idea of teaching religion with-
out first teaching the poor to understand it, was quite
ridiculous.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.")
Mr. JOHNSON, in reply, stated that the fears of gen-
tlemen as to the state of the City's cash were ground-
less, for he held in his hand a statement by which it
appeared, that on the 10th of January next the Cham-
berlain would have in his hands a balance, applicable
to purposes like the present, of 10,0001. and upwards.
A division then took place, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority

Mr. STACY then moved, as an amendment, that the
sum of 5001. be voted for the erection of schools in the
parish of Bethnal-green.
The amendment was negatived, and the original mo-
tion agreed to, without a division.
A Report was presented from the Coal and Corn and
Finance Committee, recommending an allowance of 201.
to the three surviving daughters of the late Rev. John
Villette, ordinary of Newgate.

Mr. HALE objected Co the grant. It was twenty
years since Mr. Villette was the servant of the Corpo-
ration, and during that twenty years his widow had en-
jlyed a pension of 751. per annum. Was there never
to be an end to the claim ?

Mr. NORRIS said the circumstances of the case were
singular ; the Rev. Gentleman had been much injured
by a fall while attending upon the execution of some
malefactors at Newgate. The petitioners had been
brought up as governesses, and the pension was abso-
lutely necessary for them in order to keep them in a
state of respectability. The grant had been unani-
mously agreed to in Committee.
The Report was agreed to.

Mr. ANDERTON brought up the Report of the Par-
liamentary Committee—"On the references respecting
the Commercial London and Blackwall Railway, and
for payment of the expenses incurred in the opposition
thereto," which amounted to 2,460/. ;" also " On the
several references respecting Bills and proceedings in
Parliament in the last Session," which were agreed to.
In the absence of Mr. Wire
_ _

Mr. ASHURST moved—" That it be referred to the
City Lands Committee to examine the state of the
building appropriated to the Courts of Law in the
Guildhall Yard, with power for them to give the ne-
cessary directions to cleanse, repaint, and repair the
same where needful ; and also to inquire whether any
and (if any) what improvements can be made therein,
and what other accommodation can be provided for the
Attorneys and Jurymen frequenting the same."
Agreed to.

On the motion of Mr. ANDERTON it was ordered—
" That it be referred to the Library Committee to con-
sider and report to this Court the propriety of collecting
and placing in the Library all official and autograph
letters and papers from Royal, Noble, and distinguished
persons belonging to the Corporation, and now in the
hands of any of the officers ; and also the propriety of
removing from the custody of the Chamberlain to the
Library the sword presented to the Corporation by the
late Lord Viscount Nelson after the battle of the Nile."
Mr. LOTT moved as a standing order of the Court—
" That no Member of this Court who shall be a share-
holder in, or agent, solicitor, valuer, or otherwise con-
cerned for any public company, speculation, or under-
taking, the formation, progress, operation, or extension
of which shall be opposed by this Corporation in Par-
liament or elsewhere, shall be eligible to sit and vote
upon any Committee of this Court to which shall be
delegated the opposition, or considering the propriety
of opposition, of any such measure, during the time the
same shall be under the consideration of such Com-
mittee or Commission."

Mr. WIRE suggested as an amendment to the motion
that the Court deelare that the characters of the members
were so frail that they could not be trusted to vote in any
case, however remotely they were connected with it.
Restrictive orders made by the Court were of no use,
as they were generally evaded. He thought the re-
solution ought not to pass, but he would content him-
self with votinc, against it.
_ _

Mr. Alclerin-an-Gißis would support the motion,
for his experience of the Court taught him that there
were many evils connected with the present system.
The motion was agreed to.

On the motion of Mr. KING, it was carried by a di-
vision of 40 to 2.5, " That on and after the next re-
appointment of the Committees of this Court, one-
fourth of the members of the London Bridge Ap-
proaches Committee do annually go out, so that the
whole of the commoners of that Committee be changed
once in four years, in accordance with the plan adopted
by the Library Committee of this Cour.."
Mr. WIRE gave notice that next Court day he would
move that after the year 1840 it was inexpedient to
print the sermons delivered before the Corporation by
the Lord Mayor's Chaplain.—(Laughter.)
The business in the Paper having been disposed of—
The LOAD MAYOR said he could not retire from the
Chair without expressing his grateful thanks to all the
members of the Court for the liberal support which had
been afforded him during his year of office. During that
year their rights and privileges had been assailed--the
question of a Reform in the Corporation had been much
discussed, but throughout the whole of the debates
upon those questions there had been no unpleasant feel-
ings created, neither during the year had there been aay
occasion to wait for members to form a Court.—(Ap-
plause.) He begged to thank the members of the
Court most gratefully for the kind support they had af-
forded him.

Mr. WIRE, for himself and the Court generally, had
to thank his Lordship for his kindness, and for the great
freedom of debate they had enjoyed under his Lord-
ship's sway ; and thanking him, they had only to hope
the example would be followed by his successor.—
(Cheers.)
The Court then adjourned.

THE PRIVILEGES OF THE QUEEN DOWAGER.
—The hearing of the case in which Mr. Sawyer, game-
keeper to her Majesty Queen Adelaide, was ch
with trespassing on certain land at Hounslow, was gre-
sumed on Monday before the Magistrates at Brentford
Petty Sessions. The real question at issue is, whether
the right of free warren over the ground referred to
appertains to her Majesty or to the Duke of Northum-
berland. The Magistrates dismissed the information
against
.the gamekeeper, and fined another party (who
had pleaded guilty) in the nominal penalty of 55., it
being understood that the matter would, without delay,
be carried before a Superior Court.
GUY FAwKEs.—Smith in his " Antiquities of
Westminster," gives a very precise account of Guy
Fawkes's cellar, which has not been accessible since the
Houses of Parliament were burnt down. He says,
" That one entrance is on the south side of the
Prince's Chamber, in a small enclosed court," and de-
scribes the size, and continues, " that the quantity of
powder
to toPi a
ebe,es provided was thirty-six barrels, that if
the force of the powder was not sufficient to blow the
walls
the explosion would have found its way
out of the door without affecting the building. Fawkes
hoped to escape through the doorway, crossed the way
down Parliamentpassage to the water, where a boat
was in waiting to
water,
him across to Lambeth, in
b
hopes that the
eing
ha
onvoi
nn
a- c
soentdfiurcet non-conductor,
or , t hh eo
twr
aoiuol.d
have escaped the shock
afterc ”
LOYAL LIBERALLUB—
T h
mosti sc Sh oe
eerie ri ei
ot
gy a hasos
commenced its operations.
pices. Sir T. B. Lethbridge under.
P.O
hasnaccepted the office of
President, and the Hon. P.
that of Vice-
President—a Committee of active andve influential
gen-
tlemen has been appointed, with instructions to add to
their numbers.—Somerset County Gazette.

MR. BRADSHAW'S SPEECH.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE KENTISH TIMES.

SIR-I have just read, in a hand-bill, which was
issued last Saturday, Mr. Bradshaw's speech as ex-
tracted from the Kentish Gazette, and as a reader
of your paper I feel justified in asking you whether
that is a correct report of what Mr. Bradshaw said,
because if it be, your own report of it, and the one
which appeared in the Canterbury Journal, must
have been grossly incorrect, for I find in neither of
those the particular expressions and allusions which
have caused so much virulent commentary in the
London newspaper press. 1 think you are bound,
in justice to yourself, to your readers, and to Mr.
Bradshaw, to explain this matter ; to yourself and
your readers, that you may not lie under the im-
putation of blundering inaccuracy, and to Mr
Bradshaw, that he may not be made answerable
for what he never uttered, if it should turn out that
the Kentish Gazette's report, and not your's, is the
correct one.

I am, Sir,
Your obedient servant and well-wisher,
Nov. 3, 1839. VERITAS

[The first thing we did upon receiving the above
letter was to band it over to our Reporter, and we
subjoin his reply :]—

TO THE EDITOR OF THE KENTISH TIMES.

SIR,—In reply to" Veritas," and in vmdication
of myself, I am enabled to state, upon further re-
ference to my notes, that Mr. Bradshaw's speech as
delivered at the dinner, and as given in the Kentish
Gazette, is at complete variance—that Mr. Brad-
shaw did not deliver at the dinner, one-half of that
which is imputed to him in the Gazette. and even
many parts of the speech to which he did give ut-
terance, are put forth in a very different phraseo-
logy from that which he employed. How the Re-
porter of the Gazette could publish such a speech
as being the one delivered by Mr. Bradshaw at the
dinner, I am at a loss to imagine.
The report which I furnished I declare to be
substantially correct. I omitted those points only
which had the appearance of tautology, or were
capable of abridgment with a preservation of the
sense.

I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
THE REPORTER FOR THE KENTISH TIMES
AND CANTERBURY JOURNAL.

Nov. 4, 1839.

We have since had an opportunity of speaking
with two gentlemen who were present at the dinner,
and took part in the proceedings, and they both de-
clare that the speech in the Kentish Gazette was
not the speech they heard Mr. Bradshaw deliver ;
one of them adding, that the report in the Kentish
Times was " substantially correct throughout, and
in many parts the very words of Mr. Bradshaw."
Having done all that is necessary for our own ♦in-
cdication, we have no desire to push the matter fur-
ther.—Kentish Times of Nov. 5.