The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS--Last Evening.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at
five o'clock.

ROYAL ASSENT.

The Royal assent was given by commission to the fol-
lowing bills :—Ba'selacuse Regulation—Sale of Mill Sites
(Ireland)—Security from Violence—lnnkeepers Liability--
Postmaster-General (Sale of Land)—London Coal and
Wine Duties—Salmon Fisheries (Scotland)—Mutiny (East
India)—Courts of the Church of Scotland--Duchy of Corn-
wall Mrnagement—Vaccination (Ireland) 1863—Passen-
gers Act Amendment—Militia Ballot Suspension—Walmer
Vesting Inclosure (No. 2)- -Thames Embankment (north
side)—Vale of Neath Railway—Blaekrock, Monkstown,
and Newport—Great Western and West Midland Rail-
way Amalgamation—Charing-cross Railway Evesham
and Redditch Railway—Rotherham Local Board of Health
—Seeton and Beer Railway—Southampton Port, Harb• ur,
and Pier West Shropshire Mineral Railway
North-Eastern and Stockton Railways, &c., Amalgama-
tion—Leominster and Kington Railway—Merthyr, Trede-
gar, &c., Railway—Anglesey Central Railway—Dulas
Valley Mineral Railway—Watford and Itickmansworth
Railway—Stonchout,,e and Mailworth Railway—Okehamp •
ton and Ledford Junction Railway—llelfast, Holywood,
and Bangor Railway—Devon Valley Railway—Newcastle
and Carlisle Road—Atheury and Ennis Junction Railway
—Rugwood, Christchurch, and Bmineuth Railway--Lon-
don, Brighton, and South Coast Railway ( oorking to
Leatherhead)—Mid Kent Railway—Ogmore Valley Rail-
way—Wakefield and Aberford Road—West Midland Rail-
way—Lands Improvement Company—Tees Conservancy
—South Yorkshire Railway— Great Northern Railway
(Cheshire lines)—Glasgow and South Western, &c., Rail-
way (Amalgamation)—Scottish CenfTal Railway—Stand-
edge and Oldham Turnpike Trust— Aberystwith and
Welsh Coast Railway—London, Brighton, and South Coast
Railway (Extension)—Tendring Hundreds Railway—
Tamworth and Harrington Bridge Itoad—Wakefield Ings
Road—Glasgow and South Western Railway (additional
powors)— Great Western Railway (Branch at Great
Bridge)—Hemel-Ilempstead and London and North
Western Railway—Portadown, Dungannon, and Otnagh
Railway—West Hartlepool Harbour and Railway—North
Staffordshire Railway—Tcign Valley Railway—Sligo and
Ballaghaderreen Junction Railway—Law Life Assurance
Society.

THE ENGLISH FLEET.
The Earl of MALMESBURY asked the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs if it was true, as stated in the
Observer of yesterday, that the English fleet had been sent
in all its strength to the Baltic.
Earl RUSSELL said that the writer in the Observer
must have been misinformed.
THE CIRCUITS.

The LORD CHANCELLOR laid on the table a bill to
enable her Majesty in Council to alter the circuits, which
was read a first time.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
AValway Water—Milford Haven Dock and Railway—Great
No:th of Scotland Railway—Formartine and Buchan
Railway—North British Railway (Wansbeck Railway, &c.
—Great Northern Railway (Spalding to March)—Lynn
and Sutton Bridge Railway—Great Eastern Railway (ad-
ditional powers)—London, Brighton, and South Coast
Railway (new to line at Croydon, &c.), as amended.

THE BURIAL SERVICE.

Lord EBURY rose to inquire what steps have been
taken towards devising a remedy to the evils arising from
the compulsory and indiscriminate use of the burial service.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY stated that a con-
vocation of bishops, including representatives of the Irish
and Colonial Church, had been held for considering the sub-
ject, but when Parliament had again assembled perhaps the
rev, prelate would be able to give their lordships the con-
clusion to which convocation had arrived.

The Archbishop of YORK related the manner in which
the subject had been considered in convocation.
_ _

After a short conversation, in which the Earl of Desart,
Earl Granville, and the Bishop of Exeter took part, the
subject dropped.

POLAND AND RUSSIA.

Earl GREY, in rising to put the question of which he
had given notice, begged to express, in the first place, his
regret that his noble friend near him (the Marquis of Clan-
ricarde) had not persevered with his motion, which would
have raised the whole question. However, as he did not
wish to do so he (Earl Grey) thought it important that the
question should be brought before their lordships, and
therefore he had himself undertaken the task. He did so
the more willingly because he should have to occupy their
attention but a short time, the importance which would
attach to the discussion being dependent not upon what he
might say, but upon what her Majesty's Government
should state to be the policy upon which they were resolved,
and upon the expression of opinion which should be given
by their lordships' house. It was of great importance that
they should have such an explanation of the views of the
Government, and such an expression of opinion from their
lordships, because he could not look at the present state of
Poland without feeling very great apprehension as to the
consequences which it might bring forth. His noble friend
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had expressed a
strong opinion some time since against intervention in the
case of Poland, as he thought it would lead only to anarchy
and confusion. That opinion was shared at the time by the
great majority both of their lordships and the nation, for
few persons had considered the question without coming to
the conclusion that intervention would lead to very great
calamity. (Hear.) He (Earl Grey) thought that if the
question were put distinctly to her Majesty's Government,
to Parliament, and to the nation, " Will you go to war on be-
half of Poland ?" the answer, without hesitation, would be,
" No." But although he thought that every person was con-
vinced that it was not a cause in which we should go to war,
still he could not read the papers which had been laid upon
the table without feeling that, although we did not intend
to go to war, wo might be led gradually and step by step to
that conclusion. He thought that there was danger at the
present moment most imminent : and that it could only be
averted by this country acting upon a clear and well-defined
course of policy. Her Majesty's Government could not
take even the smallest step without considering to what
that step might lead. For if they proceeded in a wrong
course, it became more and more difficult to stop, and, by
an unhappy necessity, they were led from one step to
another into difficulties from which it became impossible to
recede. He believed it was necessary, not only that her Ma-
jesty's Government should act upon a clear and well defined
policy, but that that policy should be understood by the
nation and by all Europe, so that no mistake should be
made upon it. The necessity for this c:earness was forcibly
illestiated by the history of the past. It was just 10 years
since we had stood, with respect to the qUerrel then rising
between Russia and Turkey, in a situation not very d►fferent
from that in which we now stand with reference to the war
in Poland. There was hardly one of their lordships at that
time—there were few persons anywhere in the country—
who did not think that war with Russia on behalf of Turkey
was impossible. Ile himself certeinly thought so; and
when his noble friend near him (the Marquis of Clanricarde)
wished to bring forward the question at that time he (Earl
Grt y) was one of those who had dissuaded him from doing
so. He was unable to form any clear idea what was the
policy of her Majesty's Government from the papers that
had been laid upon the table of their lordships' house,
and therefore he was anxious that her Majesty's Govern-
ment should give them a full explanation of their policy.
He wished, therefore, to know, first, what was their aim,
and what their expectation with regard to the communi-
cation that had been made to Russia ; and further, what
grounds they had for believing that their last communica-
tion was likely to lead to the particular result desired,
for it was difficult to understand from the papers in what
manner the proposal made to Russia was likely to lead to a
satisfactory result. He also inquired with whom the armis-
tice was to be concluded. Who were to be contracting parties
on the part of Poland ? and by whom was it to be signed,
and what security was there that it should be respected ?
because he considerei that a cessation of hostilities on the
part of the insurgents would be difficult again of renewal,
and would be a virtual abandonment of the insurrection.
An amnesty he had generally considered as a measure that
followed and not preceded pacification, and with regard to
the establishment of free institutions, and the administra-
tion of the country being in the hands of the natives of Po-
land, what guarantees, he asked, had her Majesty's Govern-
ment for believing that it would be accepted by Poland ?
At present all the country knew about it was, that Poland
repudiated a national government under Russian authority
within the limits of Poland, as defined by the treaty of
Vienna, and that she asked for the old limits of Poland,
and for complete independence. With that broad difference
between them, he was at a loss to understand what advan-
tages were likely to arise from pressing those terms upoir
Russia. Had therefore, he asked, her Majesty's Government
sufficiently considered the interference of a third party, as
between sovereign and people, that was apt to lead to ause-
ful result. His opinion led to a contrary belief, unless they
were prepared to follow it up with a strong hand, and were
determined to enforce it. A middle course, that of interfer-
ing merely by giving advice,would be thought to have much
of a similar interference between man and wife, add lead to
no practical beneficial result. To encourage hopes in the in-
surgents which were not to be fulfilled was cruel on the part
of this country. His lordship considered that diplomatic
intervention encouraged the hopes of the insurgents that Eng-
land would interfere with a strong hand, and instanced
the feeling existing in Russia on the part of the people
to support the Czar in his attempt to ciush the Poles. He
did not anticipate that Russia would send a positive refusal;
but supposing she were to do so, what would be the conse-
quence ? Were we to take the rebuff without suffering seri-
ous injury to our reputation. (Hear, hear.) On the other
hand, if they sent a rejoinder of a stronger and more press-
ing character would they not be taking a step that must of
necessity lead to war. Then again, if Russia professed her
readiness to meet our views, and asked us to join her in con-
sidering what practical measures could be adopted, we
should be involved in serious difficulties—(hear, hear)—
because we should have imposed upon us the responsibility
of suggesting a practical measure by which a settlement
might be effected. If the task was impracticable in 1815
how much more so was it now after the Poles had been sub-
ificted to more than half a century of Russian tyranny ?

He cautioned her Majesty's Government against exciting
also in this country vain hopes for the Poles, or else the
sympathy of Englishmen might drift us into a war for the
recognition of Polish rights. (Hear.) The same he believed
with France ; and they had already seen, from a statement
of a semi-official character in one of the Frees newspapers,
that the Emperor of the France expected tin proposals to
bear early fruit favourable to the Polish reople. The feeling
of Russia, his lordship said, was in favour of the Czar and
their religion, and the people had expressed their readiness
to come forward with their lives and their property in their
defence, provided no concessions were made to Poland. The
recruits ware also coming forward for the defence of Russia
with alacrity, considering themselves as about to be engaged
in a holy war. Indeed, private accounts of a late date de-
scribed the feeling and enthusiasm of the Russian people as
stronger than that which existed in 1812, in opposition to
foreign aggression, and in the maintenance of the limits
of the Russian empire which led Russia to snake such
sacrifices and heroic exertions. Under those circum-
stances he was anxious to know whether her Ma-
jesty's Government were making out a cause of
war against Russia, and if they w£ re not—as
he was convinced they were not, he considered they ought
to explain why they were taking a course that seemed so
likely to lead to that result, He was not indifferent to the
sufferings of the Polish people. He deprecated the measures
that led to the revolt, and he had observed with as much
going
horror as any one the terrible bloodshed which was iowg
of
on ; but a great nation ought not to act on mere
reimpulseought to be
Feeling, but to consider what could and what
done. He did not consider it the duty of
all over the
this
country to set
herself up as the general redresser of grievances
th t we considered
every country a
world—(hear, hear)—or that we should undertake the holy
mission of setting right
We had, he thought, acted
waswi
wise regard rws
er ow
in
gth. r,
with the greatest sorrow and surprise, a most bloody, and,
r ga
a hto e ar
America; we had seen there,
to all appearances, a most purposeless civil war maintained
for two yea-s but her Majesty's Government had, with the
universal assent of this country, properly abstained from
interfering. The same principle, he considered, applied to
Poland, believing that it was not acase for armed interven-
tion—(hear, hear)—and ho expressed a hope that her Ma-
jeste'e Government would not, by interference of another
kind, aggravate those evils which they would gladly pre-
vent. He concluded by moving for the production of the
papers relative to Poland of which he had given notice.
Earl RUSSELL, after complimenting the noble earl for
the temperate manner in which he had brought the subject
forward, observed that as her Majesty's Government were
acting in concert with France and Austria, he could not
then enter into the effect of the Russian reply without
further communication from those Powers; but he had not
thought it desirable to ask the noble earl to postpone his
motion, from feeling that if he had, and the noble earl had
acquiesced in the proposition, their lordship 3 would have
been deprived from discussing the subject that session. He
confessed that he disagreed with the noble earl's views
on this subject, although the noble earl agreed with him
in one point, that armed intervention was not necessary,
There were some, however, who were of an opposite opinion.
Before, however, we entered on a war for Poland, it was
necessary to ask, What was Poland ? (Hear, hear.) There
was Poland clearly defined by the Treaty of Vienna, in
which the Powers of Europe had a certain right to inter-
fere ; but that was not the Poland that was looked to by
those who were in insurrection, but involved those provinces
in which no very great number of Poles were to be found.
(Hear, hear.) The noble earl reviewed the historical posi-
tion of Poland, from its first partition in 1772, and observed
that, so far from diplomatic communications leading to war,
the effect would be the contrary. All the points must be
discussed and fully deliberated upon, and her Majesty's
Government must have a clear object in view before they
would venture to come down to the house and propose a war
with Russia on behalf of Poland. (Hear,) He differed
from the noble earl that diplomatic negotiations must lead
to war, and that statement ought not to influence their
lordships on this subject. (Hear, hear.) He confessed
that he had no confidence in a do-nothing policy, or in
imagining that a great country like England could separate
herself from the affairs of the world, and say that her voice
should not be heard nor her influence prevail in the coun-
cils of the world, but merely to take care of ourselves, and
take no part in what was going on around us. What her
Majesty's Government had been doing was this—they had
entered into communication with France, who had always
shown great sympathy for Poland, in order to establish
permanent peace and good government in that country ;
and for the same purpose her Majesty's Government had
consulted with Austria, who, he rejoiced to say, was re-
suming her power and her weight in the councils of
Europe. Austria was a wise Government, and he rejoiced
to say that her finances were nearly restored—the discord
that lately prevailed was much abated, and with
her free Parliament she was in a position to
take a higher part than she had ever yet taken in
the councils of Europe. The opinions of Austria, he re-
joiced to say,idid not agree with those of Prussia on Poland.
Austria was of opinion that her Polish subjects should be
governed with as much attention as passible to her national
tastes; that their religious observances should be respected
as well as their customs and habits ; and the result had been
that on a late occasion the Polish leaders declare in the
Austrian Parliament their full satisfaction in the policy
which the Austrian Government was pursuing. When,
therefore, it was said that such a system of government on
the part of Russia towards. the Poles under her dominion
was impracticable, he asked why they did not show some
of the temper of Austria, some of her wisdom, and some of
her moderation towards her Polish subjects—(hear, hear)—
instead of attempting, as she had lately, to suppress the
Polish language, and to change the religion of her Polish
subjects? It was, therefore, in union with France and
Austria that England had made her proposition to Russia.
The case of Poland was different to that of America. The
Northern and the Southern States of America had burst
into a civil war, and had been fiercely engaged in hostili-
ties, but to neither was the country in the least pledged to
pursue any line of policy; whereas Poland was not a divided
question among her subjects of internal government. Russia
having acquired Poland in 1815, bound herself to certain
conditions with regard to Poland to which all the Powers
of Europe were parties, and were bound to maintain them.
(Hear.) England, therefore, could not decline to have any-
thing to do with the propositions which Austria was anxious
to propose, and which Austrian statesmen considered Rus-
sia could accept. Austria was most anxious to preserve the
peace of Europe, and at the same time that the Poles
under Russia should be contented, and possess those
rights and privileges which they ought to enjoy, With re-
gard to an armistice, the noble earl had said there was no
Government on the part of the Poles with whom itEcould
be made; but he (Earl Russell) begged to remind the noble
earl that it was perfectly competent for the generals or com-
manding officers on both sides to agree to a suspension of
hostilities, with a view to the negotiating en armistice. As
to the Poles, undoubtedly, if they agreed to the suspension
of arms, they would expect to have a representative re-
ceived at the conference. There was only one proposition
made by Austria which differed from those made by the
other Powers. The first of the six propositions made by all
the Powers was a complete end general amnesty. That
would have the effect of putting an end to all inquiry into
past cffeeces and punishment of Poles for taking part in the
insurrection. He did not see why Russio should not agree
to that proposition, The second was, that the Poles should
have a national representation and participation in the
legislation of the country. That was similar to what Alex-
ander I. gave to Poland in 1815. The on y i 1 1/41- fference in
the Austrian proposal from that made by France and Eng-
land was, that the representation should be distinct and
national. He (Earl Russell) did not see why Russia
should not agree to those terms. They were similar to
those made by Alexander 1., and they were the only terms
on which peace could be expected between Russia and
Poland. Russia should govern Poland according to the
wishes of the people of Poland, and it would be impossible
for England to propose terms other than those which
would be consistent with the preservation of the Russian
Government in Poland. The leaders of the insurrection
undoubtedly would not agree to those terms, but there
settle many other men of more moderate views in Poland
who would gladly agree to them. The insurgents
had now kept the field for several months, but
they did not possess a single town, and they had not as yet
organised a regular army. There were many men in Poland
who considered that if they could obtain an amnesty, a na-
tional representation, and guarantees for the future exercise
of their religion and their laws, it would be better that the
Government of Russia should go ou. No doubt there were
men who, being leaders of insurrection and hopeful of suc-
cess, said that they would go on fighting until they estab-
lished their independence, and the noble lord who had
spoken so eloquently upon the subject on a former ocda-
sion, hoped that they would continue their gallant struggle,
and never lay down their arms until they had succeeded.
And he (Earl Russell). looking at what Russia had done to
Poland since 1815, could not blame any Pole who remained
on the field as long as he entertained a hope of success.
Nor did he blame them, but it was because he believed that
there was a majority of the nation willing to accept the
terms which bad been proposed that he thought it was our
duty to propose them. It would be the interest of the Em-
peror of Russia to keep those terms faithfully, and to keep
the Poles well governed, and the propositions would serve
as a sort of charter for the Poles. The Emperor of Russia
should observe the terms of such an understanding faith-
fully, for any future attempt at extermination in Poland
would unite the strongest feelings of Europe against Rus-
sia. The noble lord had said any interference must do mis-
chief. It did not do so in 1831, for whilst the Poles in the
other provinces were punished with fearful rigour, those in
the Kingdom of Poland, in whose favour interference was
made, were suffered to remain unmolested, excepting only
those officers who had broken their oaths. Such was the
evidence of Lord Heytesbury. At the same time he should
say everything depended, not only on the tone but on the
terms of the answer of the Emperor of Russia to the
proposals of the three Powers. There were certain wife_
favourable circumstances which he could not avoid observing.
Such an appointment as that of General Mouravieff to an
important command was not a favourable circumstance
when considered with regard to the intentions of the Rea-
peor ; and an order 9f the day issued by that general, which
he (Earl Russell) had seen in the papers that morning, in
which Polish landowners were commanded under pain of
confiscation, to return to reside on their estates and pre-