The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-30 00:00:00

NEW ZEALAND,

Lord LYTTELTON, in presenting a petition from the
inhabitans of Taranaki on the subject of the distress brought
-on them by the native war, called the attention of the
house to the subject, and also to the military defence of
the colonies. He contended that the first, the second, and
the third lesson which should be taught to all colonists was
that the primary duty of internal self-defence should be un-
dertaken by the colonists themselves. A few years ago the
colonists of Taranaki petitioned the Home Legislature for
protection against the natives,alleging that they themselves
knew nothing about war, and were unable to protect them-
selves. He was very much ashamed of the expressions in
that petition. The colonists had since learned better things,
and now he was glad to find that nearly every adult male
was enrolled in the colonial militia. The noble duke (New-
castle) had said that the colonists of New Zealand ought to
be treated with generosity and consideration under their
peculiar circumstances. He (Lord Lyttelton) admitted
that some help should be given to them until the wretched
native kings were brought into proper order, But what he
wished was that some period should be named at which the
military internal protection of New Zealand should cease as
regarded the Imperial Government, and the colonists should
be left to take care of themselves, The condition of
Taranaki was most pitiable. Not a single rural settlement
was left undeetroyed by the natives. The British military
authorities had actually prevented the settlers from defend-
ing themselves. The military interference had been most
disastrous to the colonists. A sum of money had been voted
by the Colonial Legislature for the relief of the sufferers.
He hoped the Home Legislature would facilitate the pay-
ment of that grant. The noble lord concluded by laying
the petition on the table.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE wished that if any noble
lords on the other side of the house intended to attack
the policy of the Government with regard to the colonies,
or with regard to the New Zealand colonists, they would
follow the noble lord who had just spoken.—[A. short pause
having ensued, and no movement having taken place, the
noble duke proceeded.)—His noble friend had really left
him nothing to reply to, further than to repeat once more
his belief in the wisdom of the policy laid down by the
Government. He would use no expression save of deep com-
miseration for the unfortunate settlers of Taranaki. But he
should repeat what he had said before, namely, that the war
had been got up with the natives solely and entirely through
the action and for the benefit of the settlers, and their bene-
fit alone. The Queen's supremacy was only disputed by the
natives because the land was wanted by the settlers. He did
not mean to go into the question whether the war were
right or wrong, justifiable or unjustifiable, but it was un-
questionably not got up for Imperial interests, but solely and
entirely by and for the colonists. The sum of money voted
for the sufferers of Taranaki by the New Zealand Legisla-
lature was £200,000, of which about £25,000 had been paid.
An agent was at present in England trying to raise a loan
of from £500,000 to £600,000 to pay oft the balance of the
£200,000, and to defray other expenses of the colony of New
Zealand. The affairs of the colony had greatly improved
even during the war. The revenue had doubled in three
years. It had risen from £230,000 to £460,000, and the im-
ports and exports had more than doubled within the yetir
1861-62. He hoped the house and the Legislature would
support the humane, resolute, and determined action of the
governor, Sir G. Grey. People were not wanting who were
ready to translate into Maori all speeches and expressions
used in the British Parliament which tended to stimulate
the natives to maintain their violent proceedings and to re-
new their acts of violence. The governor, Sir G. Grey, had
taken possession of, and erected redoubts upon, two blocks of
ground which the natives had stated their intention of dis-
puting. By these means he had anticipated and prevented
Violence, and matters now looked most promising. He
hoped the next mail would confirm the good news which
was foreshadowed by the last mail. The governor was ably
supported by Gen. Cameron ; and the illustrious Duke
the Commander-in-Chief had requested Gen. Cameron
to continue his services in New Zealand, although his
period of service had expired. He hoped that nothing
would be done to weaken the hands of the governor, or to
compel him to alter the plans which he was carrying out so
successfully.
Earl GREY dissented from much that hid fallen from
both his noble friends. The noble earl went minutely
through the history of the war, and contended that New
Zealand would be a slumbering volcano, threatening danger
to all the neighbouring colonies, as well as to itself, unless
proper measures of impartial justice to the natives were in-
troduced, together with arrangements for throwing upon
the colonists themselves only a fair share of the defence and
management of the colony. The result of leaving the cold •
nists to themselves would be merely to raise up a war of ex-
termination ; and that was a state of things which the house
would not be justified in bringing about. He contended that
the Imperial Government ought not to abandon its power
over any, even the moat advanced, of our colonies. He
thought that without a great dereliction of its duties, the
Government could not abandon the power which it ex Heised
in the defence and the proper control of the colonies. Whilst
he did not venture to question the right of the noble duke
to exercise his discretion in presenting papers, he should ask
how it happened that a despatch, dated last February, was
only ordered to be presented to this house on the 10th inst.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE explained that the despatch
had been presented to the House of Commons within a
week after it had been received. It was a mere accidental
oversight that it was not presented to the House of Lords.
A noble friend of his at the other side of the house having
seen the despatch published, drew his attention to the fact
that it had not been presented to their lordships. It was
then at once laid upon the table.
Earl GREY said that such an oversight ought not to
have taken place. (A laugh.)

Lord LYVEDEN said that such a course as that recom-
mended by his noble friend (Earl Grey), namely, to retrace
their steps by destroying responsible government in the co.•
lolly, would, he hoped, never be entertained. He differed
totally from the opinions of his noble friend.

POLAND.
Earl RUSSELL—Before the order of the day is pro-
ceeded with, I wish to make an appeal to my noble friend
(the Marge of cianrf
proposes to tnov Clanricarde) with regard to the papers he
e for, The two first, viz., the circular note
of Lord Castlereagh to thedated plenipotentiaries of the congress
of Vienna,
1815, and the reply to that
note of Prince Met 12th Jaternic.raanrYd, Baron Wessenberg, of the
21st January, lus, are
b
were laid on the table :ft h contained in the papers which
lordships' house the other
day, The third paper, viz Jr:
polLo..te of Prince Talleyrand to
Prince Metternich upon
dated 19th December,
1814, was, I believe, Printed i,;""'tne
papers, and is not '
included in the papers I have presenteatate
pleases, and it then •
chooses to move for it he can do so if he :If my noble friend
will become a regular document before the
But I
heard this morning that it is the intention of
injurious Bete Thge
friend to raise a debate on this question. -Nov,iray noble
my noble friend not to bring on each a discnseiot musti!"
aggravate the
convinced, as I do, that it will be very
public interest, and that it would seriously
responsibility of those who have charge of the management
of public affairs. The position of affairs is this. There have
been notes presented at St. Petersburg by the ambassadors
of France and Austria. Those notes were only presente'l
to Prince Gortschakoff on Friday or Saturday—
on Saturday last. Prince Gortschakoff merely said that
he would take the orders of the Emperor with regard to
them, but no opinion whatsoever has been given upon the
contents of those papers. I cannot but think that under
these cirsumstances a discussion would seriously prejudice
the propositions of the three Governments . and I therefore
hope that my noble friend will wait at least until we hear
further. (Hear, hear.) Meanwhile there can be no action
on the part of her Majesty's Goveenment (if the noble mar-
quis wishes to prevent it) that is likely to be taken until
some reply come. Therefore my noble friend runs no danger
of her Majesty's Government taking any steps until an
answer is received. Of course my noble friend is aware that
when
an answer is received it will be immediately presented
to the house.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—I cheerfully and
tisdly comply with the request of my noble friend. I shall

_.,..
~..
I not think of sayin __
g a word on the subject to which he has
referred ; but, in concluding, I shall withdraw my motion.
I must say that I use the word "gladly " ad. is, dly, be-
cause, of course, my noble friend and her Majesty's Govern-
ment must feel that independent members o Parliament
are now relieved from that responsibility, w:,ich I for one
think rested on me, to notice the propositi me tt at have been
stated in the other house of Parliament to lar.ve been made
to the Russian Government, together with the intimation
that no injury would arise to the public service from any
discussion of these propositions. (Hear, hear.) I thought,
that if the house had been silent after what I have just
stated had taken place in the other house, we should have
been held in honour and good faith to be bound by that
silence more or less hereafter. I can assure your lordships
and my noble friend that no one could more gladly leave the
question in the hands of the head of the Government than

I do. But I think the position of her Majesty s Govern-
ment after what has occurred i 4 one so novel, that I have
no doubt it will be necessary for the question to be hereafter
discussed. Feeling relieved from all responsibility in the
matter, I sow most gladly withdraw my motion.
The Earl of DERBY—I can of course have no objec-
tion to the course which the noble marquis has pursued, and
I think that after the request.made by the noble earl opposite
it would be impossible for the noble marquis to take any
other course. At the same time, I think that if injury were
to be done to thu public interest by discussion in this house,

great injury might likewise be done by discussion in the
other House of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) And I think it
would be a great convenience if the principal members of
Government in the two houses had some concert or arrange-
ment with each other as to what would and what would not
be injurious to the public service. The noble earl appeals
to the noble marquis to postpone his motion, because dis-
cussion of it in this house would be prejudicial to the public
service. Bat when a motion is made to discuss the same
question in the other house of Parliament, up gets the
Prime Minister and says he has not the slightest objection
to the discussion, that no injury can be done by it, and he
actually votes against postponing the debate. (Hear, hear.)
And then, when left in a minority, and the question not
coming on, he takes the unusual course of stating the pro-
positions to the house, and explaining the whole of the
points presented to the Russian Government—propositions
which are at this moment reserved for future consideration.

(Hear, hear.) I suppcse we must adopt on the authority of
the noble earl the doctrine that it is dangerous to the public
interests to discuss this subject in the House of Lords,
whilst, on the authority of the Prime Minister, it is a ques-
tion which may be discussed with perfect impunity and with-
out any danger to the public interests in the House of Com-
mons. (Hear, aid laughter.) lam at a loss, I confess,
how to reconcile the different views token by those two high
authorities, but in this house we must bow to the authority
of the noble earl. At the same time, I do most entirely
concur in the view of the noble marquis that, if we do
keep silence on this question, it is at the request of the Go-
vernment, and we are thereby relieved from the respon-
sibility of the course which has been taken. I will not
enter into the question, but I cannot help saying that the
circumstances of the present time are likely to lead to so
much difficulty and embarrassment, that the house would
not have done its duty if it had kept silence but for the spe-
cial request of the Secretary of State who is himself mainly
responsible for the conduct of foreign affairs.
Earl RUSSELL—I take upon myself entirely the re-
sponsibility of asking my noble friend to withdraw his mo-
tion. I do so on my own responsibility, being charged with
the special function of foreign affairs. He may draw any
inference he pleases from my making that request. I do not
think it at all necessary to defend the course taken by my
noble friend in the other house. (Laughter, and Hear,
hear.) A particular course may have been expedient ten
days ago, which is not expedient now. Ido not think it
unusual that after such iui interval one Minister may think
a course expedient which differs totally from that which
another Minister deemed expedient in the previous week.
(Cheers and laughter.)

The Earl of DERBY—The difference between the two
Ministers can only be reconciled in one way, which is by
supposing that much greater attention is paid to anything
which falls from your lordships in this house than to what
takes place in the other House of Parliament. It is only
in that way that the difference can be reconciled. (Cheers
and laughter.)

Earl GREY—I hope that is the proper interpretation.
and that it is not that perhaps this house is supposed to be
so indiscreet, so wanting in judgment and discretion, that

t cannot be trusted to the same extent as the other house.
:Great laughter.)

The motion was then withdrawn.

The Metropolis Turnpike Roads Acts Amendment, the
Local Government Supplemental (No. 2), and the District
Parochial Churches (Ireland) bills were read a second
time.

The Waywardens' Contracts and Inclosure (No. 2) bills
went through committee.
The report on amendments made on the Officers of Royal
Naval Reserve Bill was received.

The Leases and Sales of Settled Estates Acts Amend-
ment Bill was read a third time and passed.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening.
The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour.
PETITION.

Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Asbton-under-
Lyne, and another from a place in Oxfordshire, against
recognising the independence of the Southern States.

ROYAL COMMISSION.

At 20 minutes past 4 o'clock Col. CLIFFORD, the Yeo-
man Usher of the Black Rod, summoned the house to the
House of Peers to hear the Royal assent given by commis-
sion to certain bills, for which see Lords' report.