The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-10 00:00:00

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and c.onciuci.ed by 5t,::....-111.,::: thal. iii',

did think his motion would not introlye any question
of physical force or mural force. He therefore moved
that Courel's opinion be taken, to know how far the
people had the right to arm.
Mr. O'BRIEN, in seconding Mr. Richardson's motion,
would reserve to himself the right to speak on the ques-
tion, when he had heard other Members declare their
sentiments on it.

Dr. FLETrIIER thought that the right of arming was
so well established, that no opinion should be taken ;
more s°. as any optmon which they would obtain would
be given in such a quibbling and sophisticated manner
as would lead them to doubt, what was now beyond
doubt conceded, the right of the people to arm. He
would, therefore, move as an amendment to Mr. Richard-
son's resolution, " That it was admitted by the highest
legal authority, beyond a possibility of doubt, that the
people of this country had the right to 1.1.,e arms."
Dr. M.Dow ALL seconded Dr. Fletcher's amendment.
Mr. HARNEY did not dissent from the motion itself,
but from the expense which it would involve them in :
Mr. Richardson, who had so frequently called to their
notice when any question of finance was debated, that
the funds were contributed by the starving hand-loom
weavers, and that they should be very careful in their
expenditure, was the last person who should bring on a
motion of this nature. He also said that an address
should be sent forward to the people, advising them how
they should act on this question. However, as he was
not prepared with an address, and not wishing that ex-
pense should be incurred, he would vote for Dr. Flet-
cher's amendment.
Mr. NEESOM would always insist on the right of
the people to carry arms. He always went to public
meetings armed,--for this reason, that he thought ex-
ample was mach better than precept.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'BRIEN, thought it would have a very good
effect on the multitude throughout the country if a ,
lawyer's opinion, sanctioning the right to carry arms,
was distributed among the people. A great many per-
sons doubted their right in this respect, and if the Con-
vention did venture to send forth an address on this
right, it would not have sufficient weight unless accom-
panied by a legal aocumer.t.---(F,Te.ar, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNOR supported the amendment, as a
Mr. BUSSEY.

Mr. HALLEY was quite opposed to anything tending
to give the people a notion that the Convention incul-
cated that arms were to be used as a means for obtain-
ing the Charter. This motion would be taken up in
that light by the people if any document should be pub-
lished on this subject.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Halley) would persist in saying hat if any document
was sent among the people, it would be next expected
that the Convention would issue orders for training and
getting the people into a position to make war against
their fellow-subjects.—(No, no.) He did think, not-
withstanding the contradictions of those who had cried
" No," that the people would expect to be ad-
vised to make use of the arms which they pos-
sessed in obtaining the Charter.—( Hear, hear.)
How could the Convention give any expression of
opinion to the people at large on this subject, as the
representatives of the nation, when they had yet so
little of public sympathy in their favour?—(Loud cries
of " Oh, oh !") He did maintain that when only
1,200,000 signatures were had to the petition they did
not express the voice of the people.—(Oh, oh.) He
would move the previous question.
Mr. BURNS would second the previous question
being carried. In doing so he begged to say in contra-
diction to Mr. Halley that the number of signatures
to the petition was no criterion of public sympathy.
Hundreds of thousands were prevented from sign-
ing, it from inability, or terror, or want of opportunity,
and were the most warm supporters of the Charter.—
( Hear, and cheers.)
Mr. CARDO stated that so far from the people of the
south of England being disposed to oppose the Charter,
in consequence of the opinion entertained by some of
the Convention on the right of arming, this opinion was
the chief reason that induced them to come forward as
they did in supporting the Charter. In many places
in the south, the people were following the example of
the north, and he had witnessed himself an exhibition of
this feeling in the persons of some 200 or 300 who were
armed and had a military band in a neighbourhood where
there was never before seen such a demonstration.—
(Hear, and cheers).
Mr. HARNEY, in reply to some observations of Mr.
Carpenter, which alluded to an expression in his (Mr.
Harney's) fo, mer speech on this question, stated that
he never had advised the people to carry arms to the
different public meetings, as Mr. Carpenter stated ;
what he said was, that the people had every right to
use their arms on every occasion where their liberties
were going to be attacked, and that their best argu-
ments would be of little influence if they had not arms
in their hands.
Mr. ROGERS was for the previous question.
Messrs. Lowry, Marsden, and Ryder supported Dr.
Fletcher's amendment.
Mr. MARSDEN, in his remarks, said that no matter
what was the opinion of the lawyers, the people were
arming in thousands. In a small village in his neigh-
bourhood no less than twenty muskets were purchased
lately with no other intention than to carry out the
Charter principles.—( Hear.)
Mr. Men A ansoN replied in a few remarks
addressed to the different arguments adduced against
his position of wishing to obtain the sanction of
the Convention towards getting Counsel's opinion.
In speaking to Mr. Ncesom on his objection against giv-
ing money to lawyers, who are proverbially dishonest,
Mr. Richardson said, that his (Mr. Neesom's) objection
would be the best possible reason to get Mr. O'Connell's
opinion ; who he was sure would reply to the question
with his well-known quotation of—
" Hereditary bondsmen, know ye not,
Who would be free, himself must strike the blow."
Mr. Sichardson then gave many reasons to strengthen
his foimer arguments and concluded by pressing his
resolution.

IMPERI 13 41111,1 A .11',ENT.

HOUSE OF Go.llMoss. Apiul, 9.

The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

On the motion of Mr. SPEARS, the Glasgow and
Renfrew Roads' Bill was read a second time, and or-
dered to be comm;tted.

Mr. HEATON moved the second reading of the
Melbourne (C.lmbi Lige) Inclosure Bill.
D. W. HARVEY, before the Bill was read a
second time, wisned to make a few observations
relative to Enclosure Bills in general, as several stood
for second reading.—(Hear.) With respect to these
Bill, the standing orders of the House required what
was a most salutary regulation, that a provision should
be made, enacting that a certain portion of the waste
land, intended to be enclosed, should be set apart for
the recreation of the labouring population. Now he
had read many of the breviates of Enclosure Bills, and in
some of them the quantity of waste land proposed
to be enclosed, was stated, and in others it was
not, but he found invaria'lly that the quantity to
be appropriated for recreation, was not stated, or
its situation. He considered that this was not
right, particularly when the rights of the Lord of the
Manor were specially provided for. He thought, in
in order to give value to the wholesome safeguard
provided by the Legislature in Enclosure Bills, the
quantity of land for recreation should be set out and
its locality shown, otherwise in a short course of time
the property would be called no man's land, and would
fall into the hands of those who were the strongest.
After a few words from Mr. HEATON, the Bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
On the motion of Mr. CHRISTOPHER, the Tim-
berland Drainage Bill was read a third time and
passed.

On the motion of Mr. R. STEUART, the Manches-
ter Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE, the
Bassingstoke Road Bill, was read a second time and
ordered to be committed.

Mr. WILSON PATTEN presen,ted a petition from
Manchester against certain clauses the Manchester
Railway Win.
BIRMINGHAM AND GLOUCESTER RAIL-

WAY BILL.
On the motion of Mr. PHILPOTT, the Birming-
ham and Gloucester Railway Bill sias read a second
time, and ordered to be committed.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH brought up the Report
of the Committee on the Leeds Soka Corn Toll. Bill.

Mr. LOCKHART presented a petition from the
county of Lanark in favour of Church Extension in
Scotland.
Mr. DENNISTOUN presented a petition from
Glasgow against certain parts of the Prison (Scotland)
Bill, and another in favour of a uniform rate of postage.
Lord FITZALAN also presented a petition in fa-
vour of a penny postage.
Mr. MACKENZIE presented several petitions in
favour of Church Extension in Scotland.
Mr. COLQU NOUN presented petitions from Ayr-
shire against any alteration in the Corn-laws, and in
favour of an alteration in the rate of postage.
Mr. SANFORD presented a petition from a place
in the county of Somerset, praying for a uniform rate
of postage.
Mr. W. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a
parish in the North Riding of the county of York
against the bastardy clauses in the Poor-law Bill ; pe-
titions from Knaresborough and Stokesby, praying for
the protection of the Church in Canada ; and five pe-
titions against any alteration in the Corn-laws.
Sir E. KNATCIIBULL presented a petition from
a parish in Kent for the protection of the Church in
Canada ; and petitions from Canterbury and two other
places, in favour of a penny postage.
Mr. WYNNE presented petitions from places in the
dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor, praying that what-
ever funds might arise from the union of the two Bishop-
ricks, and the separation of the Chapters, might be ap-
plied within those dioceses. Also a petition from the
Clergymen, Freeholders, and other inhabitants of Den-
bigh, in favour of the present system of Corn-laws.
On the motion of Sir S. GLYNN, the Report of the
Committee on the Aberbrothwick Harbour Bill was
further considered.
Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition against the
Ecclesiastical Appointments Suspension Bill.
Mr. R. STEU ART presented a petition from Had-
dington, praying for the establishment of a penny post-
age ; also a petition from Dunbar, praying for a reduc-
tion of the duty on foreign coffee.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS presented a petition from
Boroughbridge, in favour of Church Extension in the
Colonies.

Mr. F. FRENCH presented a petition from the
county of Roscommon, against any alteration in the
Corn-laws.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition
from the Chairman of the General Sessions of
the county of Kent. stating the great inconvenience
experienced in collecting the county rate through the
medium of the Poor-law Unions, and praying the House
to remedy the grievance.
Sir R. PEEL presented a petition from the landed
proprietors and tenants in the county of Ayr, against
any alteration in the Corn-laws.
Mr. VILLIERS-presentscl.xt petition from Bilston
in favour of Mr. Rowland- Hill's Plan of Postage ;
also a petition from Perth in favour of a repeal of the
Corn-laws.

Sir G. SINCL AIR presented several petitions in
favour of Church Extension (Scotland);
THE MINISTRY.
Sir R. PEEL rose and said—Sir, I wish to state
that on Monday next I shall move an amendment to the
resolution of which the Noble Lord opposite has given
notice; and in order that the House may not be
called upon suddenly to pronounce upon it, I will at
the earliest opportunity, at the latest upon Friday
next—if I can, earlier—state the precise terms of that
amendment.—( Hear, hear.)
APPOINTMENT OF MR. O'CONNELL TO

Dr. Fletcher's amendment was carried by a majority
of seventeen.

Mr. FEARGUS O'CONNOR proposed the formation of
a Committee to confer with Messrs. Attwood, M.P.
and Fielden, M.P., on the Charter, which was carried,
and a Committee appointed.

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 10, 1639

that. great public as well as private inconvenience would
be the result if any material delay took place. He
could not agree with his Right Hon. Friend in his sys-
tem of ea- post facto legislation. The whole subject of
railway police and regulation, should have been taken
up long ago, instead of having been left to the present
hour, and he thought the proposition came with.a very
bad grace from his Right Hon. Friend. Under these
circumstances he hoped the House would allow the
Report to be received.

After a few words from Mr. PALMER in explanation,
Mr. FRES HFIELD thought the arguments of the
Hon. Member for Lambeth were in favour of the pro-
positions. He thought no Bill ought to be allowed to
pass the House without coming within the operation of
the general measure.

Air. HAWES believed be was perfectly accurate in
the statement he had made.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON said that he con-
sidered it right that those Railway Companies which had
now come before the House for fresh powers should be
subjected to the regulations respecting Railways, which
would be shortly before the House; but if they let them off
now before those regulations were passed, then they
would indeed become subject to an cv post facto law—
he would now leave the matterin the hands of the House.

Mr. HAWES said, that if the general sense of the
House were against him he would not divide on the
subject.
The amendment was then carried without a division.
GOVERNMENT OF JAMAICA.
Mr. LA BOUCHERE said that in rising to bring
forward the motion of which he had given notice for
leave to bring in a Bill to suspend the existing govern-
ment of the Island of Jamaica, and to make provision
for the government of that Island during the time of
such suspension; he felt deeply that it was to a measure of
no ordinary nature that he was about to ask the consent

of the House. He was perfectly aware that he should
have to prove to the House that it was under cir-
cumstances of no ordinary character that he asked
at their hands the temporary abrogation of that
form of Government of three estates which was

deservedly so valued by every Englishmen.—(Hear.)
The proposition which he should have the honour

of layin-g htfcre *-6. House had been come to

by her Majesty's Government with great pain ;
but after mature reflection be felt satisfied that
although the subject was made up of details which
were dry and uninteresting, yet the House would
feel it their duty, he was perfectly sure, more parti-
cularly when the high judicial character of the mea-

sure was considered, to give their utmost attention
to the proposition, and he trusted that that indul-

. . , . .
gence would also be extended to him, which in similar
cases the House was so kindly accustomed to
extend to those whose duty it was to explain
to the House the intentions of the Government.

n the first place he was sure he should have the unani-

mous opinioil of the House in this assertion, that a state
of things had arisen, and at present existed, in Jamaica,
which imperatively demanded the interference of the
Legislature of this country. Whatever difference of

opinion there might be about the causes which led to this,
he was sure that no one who had paid the most
cursory attention to what had been going on in Jamaica,
who had _ read the papers that had been laid on the

able of the Houie: or who had read the information

conveyed in the Newspapers on that subject, could doubt

but that there did exist a state of things which it had

been impossible for the Government to look on with in-
difference, and which it did become that House to take
under its most serious consideration, and to apply

whatever remedy it might in its wisdom think fit.
Under these circumstances he had the honour of pro-

posing to the House that course which it appeared to
the Government to be their duty to recommend. The
Government came to the House in this critical state of
affairs for council—for correction and . reproof, if
the measures they proposed were bad ; but for
encouragement, for assistance, and support, if, after the
deliberate attention of the House, those measures should
appear politic and necessary. In the month of Oc-
tober last year, Sir Lionel Smith called together the
Legislature. There certainly never was a period in the
history of that colony when subjects of • more grave
or momentous importance had to be discussed,
and when they ought to have been considered impar-
tially and deliberately. - It was the first time the
Legislature had met after the passing of that Act, which
had put an end to the system of apprenticeship in
Jamaica, and which had given unqualified freedom to
the great body of the negro population. At the
meeting of the House of Assembly, in answer
to a speech from the Governor, that House stated they
would proceed to no business, with the exception of
passing certain Acts, necessary in order to keep invio-
late the faith of the public credit of the island—that
they should proceed to no other business, in consequence
of an Act passed at the end of last Session, which went
by the name of the West India Gaol Act. The House of
Assembly stated they would have been ready now,
as they ever had been, to give their consideration
to every matter for promoting the public welfare of the
colony, but having taken into their consideration the ag-
gressions the British Parliament continued to make on the
rights of the people of this colony, and the mischief's that
must result from the present anomalous system, they
have come to the determination that they will best con-.
suit their own honour, the,rights txt., their constituents,
and the peace and well-being of the colony by abstain,
ing from any Legislative' enactutentemsept fattish es may
preserve inviolate .the credit and tmuqui/lity of-the colony:
This resolution passed by a large majority. ,The Go-
vernor prorogued the House feett few days. On their
meeeting again he advised them to proceed to public
business, an detailed many impoitant measures-which
it would be his duty, in pursuance of directions
from the Home Government, to lay before them ;
among which were, the relative rights of mas-
ters and servants, and the regulation of the
Militia. To this communication the House of As-
sembly returned an answer that they would adhere to
their first resolution. The Council, however, passed a
unanimous vote in favour of proceeding to public
business. The Governor determined to appeal to the
constituent body ; and he dissolved the Assembly.
When the new House assembled they confirmed the
resolution of their predecessors, and returned the fol-
lowing answer to the speech of the Governor :—" We
can assure your Excellency that in deciding upon this
course we have done so with extreme reluctance.
We see the inconvenience that must result. We are
more than sensible of the many existing evils which
call for legislative remedy. But we feel that the
power is no longer in our hands to apply the remedy,
inasmuch as the Legislature of Great Britain has in-
vaded our rights by passing an Act for the regulation of
our gaols—a matter of mere internal arrangement."
The Governor then:prorogued the House fora short time.
In transmitting the proceedings of this second House
of Assembly to the Home Office, the observations were
made which he should read. This would be the
most fit moment for him to call the attention of
the House to that which would be found to
be most important to be borne in mind
throughout the whole consideration of this sub-
ject, he meant the relation in which the House of
Assembly stood, as at present constituted, towards
the population of Jamaica. Of the three classes into
which the population of Jamaica may be divided, the
following might be taken as a fair statement--5,000 white
persons, 2,800 black and coloured persons, who had
been for some time free, and 320,000 persons who bad
been lately emancipated negroes. The constituent body
of Jamaica consisted of about 2,000 persons, and not only
at this moment had the emancipated negroes no
voice in the representation, but by the Registration Act
fifteen months must elapse before they could have the
slightest choice in the representation. The House would
perceive that the point upon which the House of Assembly
in Jamaica was at issue, was not with the Executive
of that country, but with the Imperial Legislature.
He trusted, however, that the House would not sup-
pose that upon that alone he wished the House to con-
clude that of necessity the Imperial Legislature
were in the right, and that the Provisional Legisla-
ure were wrong, and that upon the mere statement

of this fact, the House was to proceed to
treat the House of Assembly as contumacious.
He should ill represents the intention of the Govern
ment, if he sought to make any such statement as that.
He did not ask the House at once to conclude that,
because they differed from the Legislature of Jamaica,
that, therefore,-the Legislature of Jamaica were wrong;
but what he asked the House to do, was carefully to
review the proceedings that had taken place, because
it might be that they had been taken in error. He en-
treated the House to examine all the points ; and if it
was found from that examination that they had been in
error, and had acted unadvisedly, the sooner they re-
traced their steps the better. If, however, on the con-
trary, it was found that the House had acted rightly,
and the Assembly of Jamaica wrongly, then he
should have a right to call upon the House to retain its
former decision, and support the Executive Govern-
ment.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now he would, in the
first place, state to the House, as clearly and
as briefly as possible, what were the steps that
led to the enactments. The regulation of prison
discipline was an important part, doubtless, of
the legislation of every country, it was a subject that
honourably distinguished the age in which they lived
that the public mind had been awakened to the great im-
portance of that subject, and great care had been taken
in every civilised country in Europe with respect to it.
Important as it was in every country that proper regu-
lations should be made with respect to prisons, it be-
came doubly important in a society constituted
like the West Indian possessions of Great Britain.
As long as the great body of the population were slaves
the question of prison discipline scarcely arose. All
punishments were inflicted by domestic authority. The
consequence was that prison discipline attracted verylittle
attention, but the moment slavery was abolished and the
apprenticeship system abandoned, it became a point of
the first-rate consequence. From that moment the power
was taken out of the hand of the master ; all he could do
wastobrir g his charge against the negro who was then com-
mitted ; and it then became a matter of the utmost con-
sequence to take care what the regulations in the gaols
were, for there was the greatest danger, if the regulations