The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-26 00:00:00

TAXATION.

Mr. P. THOMSON said it was not his object to sub-
mit any proposition of a substantive nature to their con-
sideration, nor did he himself propose any change in the
system of taxation. All he desired was to procure the
appointment of a Select Committee to inquire what re-
medy could be applied to the abuses of the system of tax-
ation, if such abuses should be found to exist ; and if they
did not exist, to satisfy the people of this country that
their complaints and suspicions on the subject were un-
founded. He approved of what the Government had
done; but he thought they had not gone far enough ; and
he proposed to show how they could more effectually apply
the principle of taxation they had adopted, of putting as
much as possible into the Treasury, and taking as little as
possible out of the pockets of the people. It was a sin-
gular circumstance that the petitions laid on the table of
' the House, however they differed on all other points,
agreed on this—that the pressure of taxation was too
great and too unequal. The petitions on the table
were all to that effect. He was not one who would
yield to popular opinion, where it was not founded in
justice ; but this opinion was founded in justice.—
The Honourable Member for Essex had contended, in
the late important debates, that because the country
bore taxation during the war, it must be able to bear it
(luring the peace. During the war, however, we were
able to bear it. To account for this there was a variety
of circumstances; partly because these taxes were then
paid in a depreciated currency ; also because such was the
great ingenuity and skill of great scientific men in this
country, as applied to arts and commerce—of such men
as Watt and Arkwright—that the improvement of the
whole fabric of British manufactures was advanced by such
vast strides as never to have been previously equalled in
the history of the world. This concurrence of singularly
advantageous events gave to Great Britain, for a time,
almost a monopoly of the trade of the world. This mo-
nopoly acted in a variety of ways all favourable to this
country ; it unlocked British capital, and as in the dis-
tressed and disturbed state of the continent money could
not find adequate employment there, it reached England
circuitously, and became beneficially embarked in extend-
ing her manufactures. In such a state of things, it was
obvious the people could bear heavy taxation. Indeed,
Mr. Pitt was precisely of this opinion, when in one of his
speeches he showed how war had that effect, and quoted
the lines of Horace—

" Per damna, per ca des, ab ipso
" Ducit opes animuinque ferro."

In such a state of things the commerce of England could
command its own prices in the foreign market; but when
pe Ice came, this was no longer practicable, and the British
trader was necessarily obliged to regulate his price by that
in the other markets of the world. This was not his only
difficulty ; he could no longer keep at home his skill and
jug, nuity, on which the previous strength of his monopoly
so mainly depended; these were carried by artisans else-
where, to the benefit of the foreigner, with whom their
commerce had to compete. When persons compared their
state of trade in war and in peace, all there considerations
were elemental in coming to ,a fair conclusion upon the
comparison. The real question, however, was, what ought
they to do, in the altered state of their trade and com-
merce? As his Hon. Friend behind him had said, all
prices were made up of the cost of the raw material, wages,
and profits —of course taking into the calculation whatever
quota of tax entered into the article. Looking at these
parts of the price, h. would say, that wages were now at
their minimum, and could not be still further reduced ;
profits were very low, and could not be diminished ;
there only remained then to alleviate the burden of taxa-
tion.--(Hear, hear.)—There, and there only, did he
look for a practical remedy.—(llear, hear.)—lf this
were not speedily given, they would gradually lose
all the natural and acquired advantages which their
manufactures had over those of other countries. In
fuel, and in ingenuity and skill, they had with
fair play very great advantages; and if they
looked at the progress of events in other commer-
cial states, they would find an example either to follow or
avoid. Let the House look back at the history of the
world. Let them read that admirable work, " La Ri-
chesse de la Hollande," by M. Luzac. They would there
see the manner in which an erroneous taxation affected
that country. Holland was formerly situated nearly as
we were. It had a large debt ; and although it had not a
numerous poor, yet their place was supplied in the public
expenditure by the necessity of keeping up the dykes.—
So great was the anxiety of the Dutch Government to
acquire information on this important subject, that various
commissions were appointed for the express purpose ; one
of the most interesting reports from which was that made
by a Commission appointed in 1751, in the reign of
William the Fourth. But it was contended that we
had entered into contracts which must be maintained,
that we might preserve our good faith. He was as
ready as any man to fulfil the public engagements,
and to keep up whatever establishments were neces-
sary for the dignity, honour, and safety of the coun-
try. It was not so much to the amount of taxation
as to incidence that he objected. He had quoted a
Dutch writer, he might quote French and Spanish.—

Sully,
Turgot, and other writers, all declared that the suf-
fering under which the commercial and manufacturing
classes of France laboured arose from the evils of mis-
placed taxation. Sully said, that in his time, to raise
thirty millions for the public revenue, a hundred and twenty
millions were taken from the pockets of the people. Tur •
got stated, that the roads on which ten millions wer•c ex-
pended, cost the people forty millions. In the declining
state of Spain, that decline was attributed by the best
Spanish writers to the most infamous impost which was
ever laid upon any people—the Aleavalla. On the im-
portance of the manner of levying taxes, Adam Smith had
the following passage :—•" Every tax ought to be so con-
trived as both to take out, and keep out, of the pockets of
the people, as little as possible over and above what it
bringb into the public Treasury of the State. A tax may
either take out or keep out of the pockets of the people a
great deal more than it brines into the public treasury in
the four following ways :—First, the levying of it may re-
quire a greater number of officers, whose salaries may eat
up the greater part of the produce of the tax, and whose
perquisites may impose another additional tax upon the
people. Secondly, it may obstruct the industry of the
people, and discourage them from applying to certain
branches of business which might give maintenance and
employment to great multitudes. While it obliges the
people to pay, it may thus diminish, or perhaps destroy,
some of the funds that might enable them more
easily to do so. Thirdly, by the forfeitures and other
penalties which those unfortunate individuals incur who
attempt unsuccessfully to evade the tax, it may frequently
ruin them, and thereby put an end to the benefit which the
community might have received from the employment of
their capitals. Fourthly, by subjecting the people to the
frequent visits and the odious examination of the tax-ga-
therers, it may expose them to much unnecessary trouble,
vexation, and oppression ; and though vexation is not,
strictly speaking, expellee, it is certainly equivalent to the
expence at which every man would be willing to redeem
himself from it." Let the House look at the history of our
existing taxation, and see how closely it agreed in many
repects with the description of that kind of taxation which
Adam Smith thus deprecated. In 1793 the revenue was
only seventeen millions. That amount was carried, by suc-
cessive taxations, up to seventy millions. It would be said
by some that this took place under the Administration of
Mr. Pitt. But if Mr. Pitt were now living, he (Mr. Thom-
son) would call upon him, in support of his principle ; for
it was a principle which Mr. Pitt always advocated, and
in the early part of his life acted upon. Mr. Pitt might
have been driven by the necessities of the war to taxation ;
but the principle which he (Mr. Thomson) was now main-
taining, was to be found in the two great measures upon
which principally the fame of Mr. Pitt was founded—the
Commutation Act, and the Treaty of Commerce with
France. If Mr. Pitt allowed himself to be hurried on in
the career of taxation by the events of a war which he every
year thought was drawing to a close, it was not wonderful
that others should follow his example. But it was reserved
for Mr.V ansittart to show the soundness of Swift's maxim,
that the arithmetic of the Exchequer was not like the arith-
metic of common life. He found no fault with Mr. Van-
sittart or with the Parliament. It was not difficult to be-
lieve that a Parliament which had voted at a time when
paper was in a state of great depreciation, that a pound note
and a shilling were equivalent to a guinea, would have no
hesitation in voting anything else. He should be obliged,
in what he had to state to the House, to enter into details
of figures, which he trusted the House would pardon. He
would divide the taxes of the country into two branches.
First, those taxes which, pressing en the raw material,
were injurious to our manufactures, and, therefore, required
revision ; and, secondly, the class of taxes which was the
principal object of his motion, anti to which he wished to
call the particular attention of the House ; taxes far too
high in their amount, and a great reduction in which would,
he was convinced, be followed by no diminution whatever
in their produce. It was quite astonishing to see the man-
ner in which, in the days to which he had lately been al-
luding, taxation was treated. Tire Legislature seemed to he
playing tricks with them, transposing them, and drawing
out first one card, anti then another. The duty on tobacco
in Great Britain had, in the course of thirty-nine years,
from 1789 to 1528, been changed three times.--
Having been advanced from 350 per cent. to 1,200 per
cent., it was afterwards brought down to 200 leer cent.
In Ireland, the same duty had been changed ten times.
The duties on British spirits and gin had, in the course
of thirty years, been changed eleven times, and had been
raised 300 per cent. The duties on sugar had been changed
seventeen times. The duty on tea had been changed seven
times. The duty on glass had been changed five times, and
had been raised 500 per cent. He came now to examine
some of the taxes which pressed most heavily on our ma.
nufacturing and other interests. And first, there was the
Timber Duty. The amount of that duty was 1,550,000/.
He knew that it was a duty which involved political as well
as financial considerations. But to him it appeared most
extraordinary and absurd on the part of the legislature, to
make the people of this country pay so highly for bad tim-
ber, when they might have good at so much a less rate,
and, he was persuaded, without any injury to the revenue,
by the admission of timber from the Baltic.—(Hear, hear.)
This was one of the blessings which we owed to Mr. Van-
sittart. In 1810, when the Act imposing that duty
passed, 428,000 tons of British shipping were employed in
the Baltic trade, being little less than one-fourth of the
British commercial navy. He would not, however, dwell
long on this point ; because, as he had already observed,
it was mixed up with political considerations. Such was
not the case with the next, which was purely financial. He
meant the hemp duty. The duty on hemp amounted to
70,000/. ; being 16 per cent. on the value of the article. If
any tax in the whole list of taxation ought to be remitted,
it was surely this. Hemp was a material which entered into
the composition of numerous products affecting our greatest
manufacturing interest. The next article to which he should
advert was soap. The gross revenue of soap was 1,371,000/.
the net revenue 1,203,000/. The duty on hard soap was
threepence a pound. But it was not merely the amount of
the duty, the regulations respecting the manufacture of it
were most absurd and injurious. There were no fewer than
seven different ways of collecting the duty on soap. In London
it was collected in one manner; at Liverpool, in another ;
at Hull, in a third. The result was the exposure of the fair
trader to the most serious ineonveniencics. O❑ the other
hand ire himself knew two houses who availed themselves
of some of the existing regulations to carry on the soap
trade with the capital of the Government. There was a
drawback on the exportation of soap to Ireland. The draw-
back was paid immediately ; while the duty was not re-
quired until after the expiration of six weeks from the ma-
nufacturer of the soap. Two houses in Liverpool, exporting
their soap to Ireland immediately after it was made, re-
ceived the drawback, which they had not to pay in the
shape of duty for• nearly five weeks, during which time
they therefore held in their hands the capital of Govern-
'neut. He would not enter minutely into the subject of
this duty ; but it required considerable revision, and he was
convinced that if lessened, the Revenue would not suffer
any loss. But if he passed by this duty so easily, he could
not do so with the next—he meant the duty on barilla.
That duty had been imposed for the purpose of protecting
our manufacture of kelp; the persons engaged in which
must now be convinced of the error under which they la-
boured in supposing that they could compete with the ma-
nufacturers of barilla. In consequence of the duty on
barilla, a vast quantity of fictitious soda had been intro-
duced into this country. For his part, be thought that a
duty of Si. per cent. on an article which entered so exten-
sively into our various manufactures, for the mere purpose
of propping up a particular interest on the coast of Scot-
land, ought nut to be continued. This was, however, a
trifle. Not so the duty on sea-borne coals. At the
various periods at which that duty had been imposed—for
instance at the early periods of the war—coals were prin-
cipally used for fuel ; and although the tax fell heavily on
individuals, it did not operate on the manufactures
of the country. But now, when they had become
so important in the latter respect, was it politic or
just to compel the manufacturers to establish their
works in inland parts, where they could obtain coals at
a cheap rate, and by the heavy duty on sea-borne coals to
prevent them from establishing their works on the coast ?
Whoever would inquire into this subject, be it ever so
briefly, would see the extensively injurious effects which
this duty occasioned. In the glass manufacture, for ex-
ample, it had completely driven the manufacturer from
the coarser and compelled him to confine himself to the
finer articles. Our manufacturers equally suffered. It ap-
peared to him, therefore, that the duty on sea borne coals
was one of the first which ought to be removed. He
would not go through tine whole list of 207 dirties, many
of which might in his opinion, be advantageously di-
minished, and others entirely done away; but he would
request the particular attention of the House to three—
the duties on glass, paper, and printed calicoes. The
gross duty on flint glass amounted to 753,000/. ; the net
receipt only to 613,0001. ; the difference being sacrificed
in the collection. In 1794, the duty on glass being 2ls.
5d., the consumption was 67,000 cwt. By successive
impositions, the duty in 1811 had risen to 984. ; in con-
sequence of which the consumption fell to 28,000 cwt.
In 1825 the duty was lowered, and what was the effect?
That in 1828 the consumption had risen to 68,000 cwt.—
(Hear, hear.)—lt appeared, therefore, that notwith-
standing the increase of population and general luxury,
the consumption of flint glass was no greater in 1818
than it had been in 1794. But here, twain, the duty
WAS not the only evil. in the Act upon the eubject the:et

;. ~1.~

were thirty-two clauses, containing r prd
hibitions, penalties, &c. all very vexatious and injurious '
to the manufacturer. The duty on flint glass *as 6d. -
a pound ; the glass when made selling for a shilling.
But the officer had the choice of imposing the duty -
either when the glass was in the pan or after it had been- •
turned out of the pan. The duty when in the pan was --
3d. a pound; but owing to circumstances in the process, -1
th,t was equivalent to Id. in the pound on the glass when :•
turned out. When the manufacturer required fine glass, 4!
as he had to pay the duty upon the whole, he made the. •
fine out of the middle, and he was forced to make coarse • "'
glass out of the tops and bottoms. He had inquired of
many manufacturers, who stated that the whole cost of
Excise was 25 per cent., and thus a duty of 100 per cent. •
was levied, the price raised to the consumer 25 per cent.,
besides all the inconvenience to the manufacturer. A ma-
nufac!urer, who had travelled through France, the Nether-
lands, and Germany, had assured him that our manufac-
turers could advantageously cope with foreigners, were it
not for the duties imposed by the Government. Labour
was as cheap iii this country, our ingenuity wan greater,
and mated Is were as cheap ; it was the vexatious, orioaatts
duty alone that gave the foreign manufacturer the advan-
tage over the English. But the effect of the duty was to
prevent all improvement in the article, because to im-
prove, experiments must be made ; but a man with a
duty of 225 per cent. over his head was not very likely to
make many experiments.—(Hear, hear.)—This argument •
applied especially with respect to colours. A manufae-!..4
truer had assured him that he had never been able to pro-
duce a beautiful red, because the duties prevented his try-
ing the necessary experiments without his incurring a great
loss. Thus a miserable duty, amounting to only 613,0001.,
and upon which a charge of 10 per cent. was made for -
coilecting, was allowed to impede our native industry, and •
to stop all improvement. He would now come to paper,
and he need not state to the House the extreme impoiicy
of a tax upon an article, of which an extensively disse-
minated consumption must be so des'rable. The an-
nual produce of the tax upon paper was 665,000/. ;
but here the penalties and inconveniences of the Ex-
cise came into play. The penalties upon the manu-
facturers of paper amounted annually to 100,000/.
He held in his hand a letter from one of his consti-
tuents, a pap,r manufacturer of intelligence, who stated
that one of the evils of the tax was, that the Excise
officers had the right of entering the manufactories when- '-
ever they pleased, and the manufacturer was bound to give
24 or 45 hours' notice before he changed any paper, and •
he was obliged to keep it in the mills 24 hours afterwards,
before he could send it to market, unless the excise .officer
had re-weighed it. Ile was obliged to write 500 labels for
the Excise ; and if anybody were to break into the mill
and steal them, he should be liable to penalties amounting
to 100,0001., and the writer concluded by saying, " I
will only add, that the fines and penalties that we are liable -
to arise from circumstances under which we have little or
no contrmil ; and whilst the law is so confused that it is
almost impossible to have any knowledge of it, it is a great
annoyance to the honest man, although it is no check to
the rogue." Tha Excise Laws were never acted upon to
their full extent, but still they conveyed an unlimited
power. He would now come to the tax upon printed cali-'
coes. This subject had been very ably stated by his Hos.
Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, whom he was surprised
not to see in his place.—(A laugh, Mr. Hume at this mo-
ment entered the House.)—This tax to raise 595,0001.,
imposed a duty of not I, ss than 2,090,000/. But looking
at the increased cost of the manufacturer, the inequality of
the tax constituted the chief objection. The duty was le-
vied upon the square yard, and it was 3A-d. a yard upon
cloths that cost only 3d. a yard, whilst it was the same
upon cloths that cost ss. a yard. This was an excessive
evil upon the poor—(Hear, hear)—and it ought to be re-
medied. All these taxes amounted to 2,626,0001, and
by giving up which there would be a gain to the public of
3,500,000/., independent of the removal of great annoy-
ances, and the conferring of advantages to trade and en-
joyments
upon the people. The detail of the taxes he
should propose to take off, was as follows : _

. .
Hemp X 70,000 1;
Barilla 7OOOO
Coals
Glass 500,000
Paper 865,000
Bruited Calicoes

Making in round numbers £2,613,000 •
Ile should be told that if he proposed to take off such,
taxes, he ought to be prepared to substitute some others.
Ile believed that an amount equal to this might be made
by a reduction of some of the establishments. It had been
proposed to subject bequests of landed property to the
duties levied upon legacies of personal property, and upon
this alone a revenue of 1,500,0007. a year might be raised.
—(Hear, hear.)—But the taxation which he proposed to
take off might find some other substitutes; and therefore
he should pass to what he considered the most important
point for the consideration of the Committee—he meant
the principle of a reduction of duties without injuring the
revenue. He alluded to five branches of indirect taxation,
upon articles which eaten d into the consumption of all
classes of the people, and which amounted to 15,592,000/.
Upon sugar, the duties levied amounted to 500,0001. ;
upon tea, to 3,170,000/ ; on tobacco, 2,793,0001. ; upon
foreign spirits, 2,500,0007., and upon wine, to 1,699,000/.
If the House, by diminishing rates and duties upon these,
would increase consumption, and not injure the revenue,
it would confer a most important benefit upon the country,.
—(Hear, hear.)—lf there were one principle more true
than another in the whole history of taxation throughout
the world, and more especially in this country, it is the,
axiom of Dean Swift that two and two in political arith--
Rh tie did not always make four, for it sometimes made
only one. If he wished for an instance to show how com-
pletely fallacious were the hopes of financiers upon raising
duties, he had only to go to the history of this country or
of Ireland, where they should find it written in letters that
ought to shame those that stood in need of the proof or
the illustration. In 1807 the revenue of Ireland was
3,397,0001. At the close of the war new taxes were im-
posed, which were calculated by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to raise the revenue by 3,100,2007., which was
afterwards reduced by 400,0001. The revenue which ought
theretOre in 1812 to have been 3,000,0001. more than it
had been in 1807, was found to be only 2,841,000/. or
553,000/. less than before the additional taxes had been
levied. This was one example of increasing taxes in order to
raise the Revenue. It bad been shown, by papers laid be-
fore the FinaneeiCornmittee, that although taxes had been
taken off in this country, mince the war, to the extent of
9,000,0001, the increased consumption had so augmented
the Puente', that it had fallen off by only 3,700,0001.
With examples such as these staring them in the face,
caul(' the House for one moment doubt that if they acted
in a similar way they would meet with similar results ?
The first of the articles he should take in going into de-
tails would be wine. A century ago, this country con-
sumed annually 14,000 hogsheads of French wine, he
meant from Bordeaux ; and now the annual consumption
was scarcely 1,400. The consumption in 1791, after
Mr. Pitt had carried into effect his Commercial Treaty
with France, anti lowered the (hay on their wines, from
which this country would have derived the greatest be-
nefits, in Great Britain, exclusive of Ireland, the consump-
tion of Bordeaux wine, from 1191 to 1793, was 27,000
gallons, the import duty being 3s. 9d. the gallon ; and the
Consumption of all other wines was 7,500,000 gallons, the
duty being 2s. 3d. In 1813, when the duty had been
raised three hundred and twenty per cent., the consump-
tion of French wines decreased to 36,000 gallons from
276,000, and the revenue was only 73,0001. ; so that the
consumption!, had decreased to less than one-sixth ; and
the revenue, although the duty was so greatly increased,
was very little more than it had been before. But now he
would take the general statement of wines. From 1820
to 1822, the average consumption, when the duties had
lowered from Mr. Vansittart's high duties—for his name
was always coupled with high duties—(Laughter)—from
Mr. Vansittart's duty of 16s. sd. to lls. sd. on French,
and to 7s. Bd. on other foreign wine—the average
consumption had been 171,000 gallons of French wine,
paying a duty of 102,0001. ; the total consumption of all
sorts of wine, including French, was 5,000,000 gallons,
yielding a revenue of 1,803,000/. With increased popn-
lation and increased means, between 1791 and 1822, the
consumption of wine had fallen off from 7,500,000 to
5,000,000 gallons, and the revenue had been raised to only
1,803,000/. In 1825, the duty was lowered on French
wines, and the consumption was raised to 550,000 gallons,
and the revenue to 136,000/., and the total consumption
of wine was 7,590,000 gallons, yielding a revenue of
1,506,000/. ; so that in 1828, the consumption was just
as much as it had been upon time average from 1791 to
1793. But this was nothing compared to Ireland. In
that country, from 1789 to 1790, when the duty me
11/. 7s. a hogshead, the consumption of French wine
had been 490,000 gallons ; the duty was raised to
44/. 9s. 4d., to 1057., and lastly, by Mr. Vansittart to 136/.
and then the duty tear assimilated to that of England.
What was the effect of this ? Front 1820 to 1822, the
consumption of French wines was 21,000 gallons ; and
the total consumption of all wines had been as high as
556,000 gallons, the revenue being 188,0001. In short;
the duty had been raised five hundred per cent, and by
which the revenue had increased only 30 per cent., and the
consumption had diminished 600 per cent. He believed '
that if the duties upon French wines were now to be re-
duced to 35., the revenue would be full as much as at
present. He toi ;ht be told that a treaty was in the way,
tui that ib was not right to do anything now; but he

000
000
000
000
800
800

off such
others.
be made
lad been
to the
3d upon
raised.
/need to
herefore
iportant
meant
ring the
axation,
In of all
12,000/.
1,000/. ;
; upon
19,000/.
n these,
•evenue,

:ountry.

ore true.
)ughout
it is the

Ll at idl—
es made
w com-

ttusted.that:they should not see the interests of this coun-
t's' sacrificed to the miser able idea of keeping up a con-
nectitin with Portugal. We ought to take from other
countries their produce, and whether they would or not,
they, would be. compelled to give us their markets.—
(Hear, hear.) He would now come to another
—Tobacco—which entered so materially into the
comforts of the lower classes. Hon. Gentlemen who
heard-him might consider it a dirty thing, but with the
lower classes, it was unquestionably conducive to their corn-
fartes and, he believed, to their health. His principle for
which he was contending was practically shown by the
trade in this article. In 1795, when the duty was only
le. 3d., the consumption was 10,972,000 lbs. The duty
was afterwards raised to 2s. 2d., and the consumption
kept at its former rate, or, at least, it amounted to
15,000,000 lbs. Afterwards,the duty was doubled, and
in 1824 the consumption was, 13,000,0001b5., and the
revenue wa52,600,000/., although, as the duty had been
doubled, it ought to have produced 3,000,0001. and up-
wards' In 1825 the duty was reduced to 38., and what
followed? Did the revenue fall off—did consumption not
increase? The consumption increased to 14,705,00011)s.,
and the revenue to 2,230,0001. As the duty had been
reduced one-fifth, the falling off in the revenue should have
been 656,000/. The case of Ireland was infinitely more
strong. In Ireland, from 1791, to 1797, when the duty
was Bd. the consumption was 7,500,00011n5. The duty
was raised to 45., and the consumption diminished to
1,582,00011 s., or little more than one-fifth. The duty
had been raised GOO per cent., and instead of producing a
revenue of 1,290,000/., it amounted to only 516,000/.
The duty had been lowered in 1825, and the consumption
Was nearly doubled. Other circumstances were undoubt-
edly to be taken into consideration, for tobacco was an ar-
ticle easily to be smuggled, and he would propose to levy a
duty of 200 per cent. ; but if they subjected the article to
900 per cent., it afforded the utmost facility and temptation
to smuggling. If Ireland consumed 7,000,0001b5. in 1791,
with a population of 3,000,000 of souls, and now, with
her population of seven or eight millions, she consumed
only 4,000,000 lbs., the disproportion was absurd. By
accounts that had been laid before the Committee of
ReVenue, it had been made to appear that smuggling in
this inrticle, in England, Ireland, and Scotland, had been
carried on to the greatest possible extent. The number
of vessel, that left Flanders and Ostend carried tobacco,
and no vessel that left the ports of that country was with-
out some on hoard. About 3,640,000 lbs. had been
smuggled into Ireland in one year between Waterford and
the Giant's Causeway. He knew that in Scotland the
smuggling was carrried on to a great extent ; but he was
not able to state to what extent it was carried on in Eng-
la"d• The only means of meeting the evil was to reduce
the rate of duty to such an amount as to take away the
high inducement to illicit traffic. Reduce the duty, he
should say, to Is. or is. 6d., and by which as great a
revenue would be raised as at present. Tine next article
he should come to was foreign spirits, and the proportions
between consumption and ntaxation would confirm his
principle. He would now take a stronger case, and one
which afforded a happy illustration of the principle for
which he would contend, namely—that a judicious reduc-
tion of duties frequently brought a large increase of revenue.
From 1822 to 1825, the consumption of ruin was 2,757,000
gallons, the duty en which was 1,541,0001. ; when the duty
was decreased one-half, the consumption came within 3,000
gallons of what it was before—that is, what it was when the
duty was double. He was aware an answer might be at-
tempted to this, by saying that the impediments thrown in
the way of the use of foreign spirits gave an undue and
usual encouragement to the use of rum. What, how-
ever, was the fact ? Precisely that which left such an
argument without the slightest foundation. The case of
English, scotch, and Irish spirits was precisely similar.—
In 1821 the Scotch amounted to 2,200,000 gallons, then
the duty was Si. 6(1., the gross revenue 727,000/. ; when
the duty was reduced to 25., the consumption 5,710,000
gallons, the gross revenue 809,000/. In Ireland, at the
same period, the consumption was 2,649,000 gallons, the
revenue 912,000/.-80,000/, more than when the duty
was h.gher ; again, when the revenue was lowered fur-
ther, the duty amounted to 1,395,000/. Possibly his
argument for the reduction of duty might be met by an
asserti(ll that cheap spirits tended to inunorality—he be-
lieved, and he was sure that facts supported him in that
belief, that no efforts of any Legislature could put down
altogether the use of ardent spirits—at least that high
duties could not do it. In 1743 or 1745, the Girt Act
was passed, and the heaviest penalties were imposed upon
the dealers in that article ; yet in defiance of that enact-
silent, 6,000,000 of gallons were sold in London of the
forbidden liquor. There were two articles more to which
he should then advert—sugar and tea. Were the duty
reduced upon those articles and upon tobacco, the re-
venue would lie equal to what it is at present; the
growers, merchants, and consumers greatly benefitted,
and the interests of the country and of morals much
promoted by the suppression of smuggling. From
the evidence of Mr. Geale before a Committee of
that House, it appeared that the smuggling of those
articles alone made the maintenance of the Preven-
tive Establishment necessary. He need scarcely urge
upon the consideration of the House the great ad-
vantages that would result to the country from
getting rid of the whole of that system and of the
demoralising practices of which it was the unavoidable
consequence. It was well known that all along the coast
smuggling prevailed to a fearful extent ; it was equally
certain that it arose from the causes he had stated ; and
the establishments necessary for checking it, which they
did but imperfectly, were scarcely less an evil than the
offence itself: On the subject of sugar he should say but
little—he should not repeat the truisms that might be
urged in favour of a diminution of the duty on that ar-
tide. His Hon. Friend, the Member for Inverness, had,
he thought, put the question in a very fain point of view.
He was suit there was no independent or right thinking
man who would deny that something ought to be done
for our West Indian possessions ; and with regard to the
produce of those colonies, he could as safely assert that a
reduction of duty would lead to increased consumption and
revenue, as ettrely as in the cave of any other article. The
other article to which he should advert was tea. It might
be supposed that no great change would take phase in the
consumption of that article so long as the monopoly of the
East India Company continued, and that reducing the duty
would be but taking money from the State to put into the
Pockets of the East India Company ; yet, upon other
grounds he would contend that reduction was necessary,
and must be attended with beneficial results. He al-
luded with great pleasure to this subject, because it
afforded another and stronger illustration of the prin-
ciple for which he was contending, that reduction of duty
did not necessarily lead to diminution of revenue. In 1715
the consumption of tea was 750,000 pounds weight ; the
amount of revenue arising from it 151,000/. When the
(hay was lowered from 4s. to Is. the consumption in-
cireased to 2,000,000 lbs., and the revenue arising from the
tAiinity
Ito. 243,000/.
u By the celebrated Act introduced by
I 6..00) pon that subject, the consumption was raised to
s 0,00 n„.
o though the duty per pound was only
lowered one half.
26,000,000 lbs. It finally attained the height of
Perhaps it would be contended that there was little prospect of our being able to raise the con-
litiMption much above its present level. Supposing that
increase was likely to arise, which he was far from ad-
Milting, still the diminished tax on that article would en-
able the consumer to indulge in other taxed articles, and
indirectly leave the revenue in no worse situation than
before.be He would contend, however, for the probability
an increased consumption; and he would maintain that
at least this advantage would result from the change—
namely, that in the event of a reduced duty the public
would have the enjoyment of a genuine article. This
great advantage would ensue, that the adulteration of tea
would be got rid of. In 1783 the quantity of adulterated
tea in this country was not less than 4,000,000 pounds.
•With that fact before them, he would leave the House to
judge what the amount of adulteration was now. A
foreign gentleman, with whom lie was acquainted, said
I
ha he never Raw in this country any thing that looked
like he
him it appeared to be nothing but sloe leaves.
He should be the last in the world to interfere with
the home manufacture—(A laugh)—but he thought that
fit subject. for inquiry
a duty which led to adulteration and fraud, was at least a
before a Committee. He Legged
the House to remember that he did not make any specific
proposition to tine House on the subject of altering any
particular to
--all he moved for was a Committee of In-
riry: if expected, however, to state more particularly
ei views, he should hive no hesitation in saying,. that in
tobacco he thought
fected ; in forei a. reduction of 1 s. 6d. might be ef-
t- of gn spirite 10s. ; in French wines a reduc-
ion one-half; and
that most advant on sugar 20s. ; lie thought further,
stamps
general]
Stain ageoes reductions might be made on
Neeeon Sea Policies, on Fire Insurance, on
stamps on • •
psi and on Advertisement Duties. The
policies at the end of the war in 1815, or
rather, to bring it quite clear of the war, he would say in
I 8 j 6, attheytevaera,
ou
, . .
In the last nted to 293,000/. The tonnage of British
r,
of inwards and outwards, was 4,489,000.
which lie had returns, the revenue
arising from stamp* on Sea policies amounted to 219,000/.
Even that was no
asmtrifling difference in the amount of du-
ties, but what
was the p
Did Hon. Members suppose that
not of tonnage , 5,154,00.
ef-
fected to the extent of the d ff
t,nces insurances severe nhotin,;
they were effected, but in this
? no such t
country. The exor-
bitant duty drove the kali-erg "'ln •
slimy, not only to the loss

of
,the revenue, but to the injury of peraonf engaged in
that department of trade. The persons desiring to
effect those insurances went to the United States, to
Holland, and to Germany. In the present state of
commercial transaction', a quarter per cent. would lead
any mercantile man from any one market to any
other ; and he must take the liberty of telling his Ma-
jesty's Government, that if they persevered in that most
pernicious tax, they would send all insurers across the
water. Fire insurances presented another most striking
instance. The common premium on Fire Insurances,
with common risk, was Is. 6d. What was the duty paid
to Government ?—no less than 3s. The insurers paid
Is. 6d., and they paid double that sum for permission from
the Government to effect their insurances. Could any
man doubt, that, the effect of such a system must be to dis-
courage insurances—in very many instances to prevent
them ? It might be pertixtly true, that a man having one
house containing valuable furniture, might effect a policy
upon that. But what would grub lily be the case—what
was really the fact with respect to the insurers of farm-
buildings, numerous and remote? Just this—that they
would rather abide the risk, than pay a treble insurance—
two parts for permission to pay tie third—was any man
capable of raising a question open the effect of a duty of
200 per cent. ? In the year 1816 the amount of revenue
derived from insurances was 613,0001. ; in 1821, twelve
years afterwards, the duty had only advanced 78,000/.,
the whole amount of that year being 691,0001., and that
notwithstanding the immense increase of capital and pro-
perty of every sort during that period. If the duty on
fire insurances were made half what it is at present, he had
no doubt that the number of policies effect, d would mere
than double. He would now come to the last of the re-
ductions which lie had recommended.—(Hear.)—Upon
that point he should go further than his Hon. Friend, by
whom the subject had been mentioned. He would be for re-
ducing the stamp duty upon each copy of a newspaper to a
penny, instead of two pence, as recommended, or instead
of four pence, as paid at present. By such a change there
could be no question that the revenue would be in-
creased, and the sale of newspapers prodigiously increased.
He would beg of the House to allow him to institute a
comparison between this and other countries, as respected
newspapers. The inhabitants of the United Kingdom laid
claim to great superiority of intelligence, and to a high
literary character. Now let the state of the newspaper
press show how the matter really stood. There were in it
only 331 newspapers, of which number 20 were daily
papers; three or four of those were published in Dublin,
not one in Scotland, with all its high, and he would admit,
well-founded claims to intelligence and literary pre-etni-
nence. The total consumption of newspapers annually in
the United Kingdom was 27,827,000 copies—that with a
population of 23,000,000 ; while the United States, with
a population of 10,000,000, had 8,000 newspapers to
contrast with our 334, and 50 of these publications were
daily—the entire annual consumption there being 61
millions, and ours, as already stated, hieing about half that
quantity,while our population was more than double, making
the proportion, as respected newspapers, amount to some-
what less than five to one. France lead a daily circulation
of 70,000, while the United Kingdom had but 36,000.
In Paris there were four papers that circulated from 50,000
to 60,000 daily. Then there were the advertisements, upon
which, whether they consisted of one line, or of any greater
number, the duty was 3s. 6d. Now he desired the House to
see the way in which that operated. There might be, for
example, a daily newspaper, coming out with its double
sheet, and on such an occasion, and confining his views to
that solitary case, a superficial observer might suppose that
no difficulties stood in the way of advertising. But how
opposite to that was the fact ! He begged of the House
to look at the United States. There was no duty upon
advertisements there. The number of advertisements was
10,000,000; while in this country they amounted annually
to 963,000—about one-tenth of Great Britain, with a po-
pulation of one-half. Would it be asserted that the people
of this country were indisposed to advertise? Let the
walls of this metropolis be looked at. Was not every one
of them where it could be done, chalked and placarded.
Could the House be persuaded that the people of England
had no wish to advertise more extensively than at present?
Those who have attended most to the subject of advertis-
ing, and to the duty on the papers, were universally of
opinion that if the change he spoke of were made, the con-
sumption would be quintupled. A printed letter lead
been addressed to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) by the Editor of the
Scotsman, which possibly he had not yet read, but which
was well worthy of his attention, coining, as it did, from
a gentleman of information, conducting an excellent Jour-
nal, and well acquainted with the particular matter upon
which he addressed the Right Hon. Gentleman. The cal-
culation made in that letter was, that if the duty were re-
duced to the extent there specified, what was now sold for
7d., might then be had for lid. lii urging this upon the
consideration of the House, he was not merely influ-
enced by a desire to relieve the country front need-
less taxation, and mischievous taxation ; but from that
which impeded the dissemination of useful information.
He was sure every Member of that House wished to pro-
mote the spread of useful knowledge, and here that could
be effected at the same time that a burden was removed,
without loss to the revenue.—(Hear, hear.)—He had
now gone through the taxes, to which he desired to call
the attention of the House, and he felt that in doing so,
he bad been under the necessity of trespassing upon their
attention at greater length, and more in detail than he was
accustomed to do, for which he intreated their indulgence.
—( Hear, hear.)—ln approaching the terminatien of his
remarks, he might be allowed to hope, that whatever
difference of opinion there might exist as to his earlier
suggestions, there could not be much as respected his latter
statements and proposals fur the reduction of taxation—
which, he begged especially to observe, went in no case to
a diminution of revenue. If by rates of duty no reduction
of income arose to the State, while the comforts of the
consumer were greatly augmented, he conceived that Par-
liament could not better discharge the important functions
with which it was entrusted than in directing its best
energies to the accomplishment of that object. Even at
the worst, the course which he advocated could not be
productive of more than temporary injury to the revenue;
and if that opinion were founded in fact, lie could not con-
ceive how any Hon. Member could object to the principle
upon which he proceeded. He was of course not aware of
what course his Majesty's Government intended to pursue
with respect to the motion he intended to conclude with ;
but whatever they might do, he hoped they would consider
him as not bringing forward the motion, in any unfriendly
spirit. He assured them he brought forward his motion
with the most amicable intentions. In proposing that those
matters should, as in 1783, be considered by a Committee,
and that some of those Reforms recommended by the Fi-
nance Committee should be carried into effect, he hoped
lie should not be considered as expressing any want of
confidence in the present Administration. What he
wished to do was, by the appointment of a Committee,
to impart to them an increased power of doing good, and
of accomplishing that good upon a more extended scale.
It was not to be expected that any Executive Government
' should be able of itself to accomplish such a reform ; but
were a Committee to be appointed, the Government might
easily come for any assistance which the recommendations
of that Commitee might render necessary—even a vote of
credit might be had under such circumstances, for the pur-
pose of enabling such an important and extensive experi-
ment to be fairly tried. He was persuaded that such a
Committee as he looked for would impart to the Govern-
ment increased power, and obtain for it a much greater
share than even it now possessed of the confidence of
Parliament and the gratitude of the country. If sug-
gestions of the nature he had made received the sanc-
tion of a Committee of that House, it amsrobvious that
Parliament could more readily give the-SUptanet required,
than if Ministers endeavoured to accomplish those
important changes upon their own responsibility.—
Another circumstance not to be left out of view was,
that in coining to the decision of questions of that
nature many interests were to be considered ; and before
a Committee all might be heard—information obtained
from all quarters, and impartial investigations entered into
wherever necessary. For such purposes he thought a Com-
mittee infinitely better suited than was an Administration,
the Members of which had their various official duties to
attend to. Whatever determination Government might
arrive at, be hoped he !should receive credit for the tone
and temper in which he had offered to the House and to
them the suggestions which he felt it his duty to nuke,
and diet they would take him for what he professed to be
—one sincerely anxious to carry into effect a series of
changes which he conscientiously believed would have the
effects at one and the same time, of moving vexatious bur-
dens, and of maintaining the revenue at its present eleva-
tion. For the support to which he thought his motion en-
titled, he would appeal to those Hon. Members who voted
for the motion of the Hon. Baronet below him. He would
call upon all who had demanded relief to come forward and
support him, for there was an opportunity in which effec-•
tual and substantial relief might be afforded.—(Hear,
hear.)—lle would appeal to all those who had not sup-
ported the motion of the Hon. Baronet on account of its
being vague and indefinite—here he presented them with a
definite proposition—here a specific object was placed
before them, capable, if carried into effect, of pre-
serving the present amount of income, and of af-
fording at the same time that relief to the people
which all agreed in acknowledging that they re-
quired, He called for support upon all who had

orecnted and advocated the prayer of prtitinns complain.
ng of the general distress. Ile cilium! Cu them for the
.upport which, in common consistency,' they were bound
'o afford. He called upon every Hon. Membcr in that
House to say how he could meet his constituents• if he re•
fused to vote for inquiry upon on occasion like that. In-
piry could be productive of no imaginable harm, and it
might lead to important good. On time one band, if mhe
House agreed to inquiry,. they would show the people that
they were anxious to do all that could ha done for the pur-
pwe of affording relief, and of giving them time necessaries
aid comforts of life at a lower rate than that at which they
hail been for many years enjoyed. On the other hand, if
they refused inquiry—if they refused to lessen the burdens
of the people—if they refused to place the finances of the
country upon a better system than that upon which, for
years, they hail stood, it would be an acknowledgement
that Parliament was unfit for the high functions allotted to
it by tilt. Constitution—that it abdicated its powers, and
s'amped its own incompetency. For these reasons, then,
he should move " That a Select Committee be appointed
to inquire into the expediency of making a revision of the
taxes ; so that the means Of paying the sums voted by the
[louse, and all other charges for the public service, may be
provided with as little injury as possible to the industry
and improvennt of the country."
Colonel I)AVIES (as we understood,) seconded the
motion.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—AI-
though I concur in a great portion of what has been ad-
vanced by the Ho❑ Gent.—although it is impossible not
to concur in the great principle laid down by his motion,
that it is expedient that the charge upon the public should
press as little as possible upon, and do the least practicable
injury to the interests of the people and the advancement
of industry—l say, that notwithstanding my concurrence
in part of the motion, and in many of the sentiments ex-
pressed by the Hon. Member, yet I feel it as an imperative
duty to oppose his motion. In doing so, I assure him that
I am influenced by no motive of disrespect toward him, nor
by any indisposition to return the kind feelings with which
he has expressed himself towards my colleagues and myself.
I feel, Sir, that if I acceded to the motion of the Hon.
Gent., I should neither consult the interests of the country.
nor the character of the Government. I need not repeat
that the great principle asserted by the motion is self-evi-
dent—namely, that it is the duty of Government and of
Parliament to do all that is practicable to raise the taxes
with as little injury to the interests of industry as the ne-
cessities of the State will permit, and with as little obstruc•
tion to national improvement as is consistent with the real
purposes of taxation. I am as willing as any man to admit
that it is the duty of his Majesty's Government to look
as minutely as possible into every branch of the public
income, both with the view of directly relieving the
country front the load under which it labours, and by
varying the points front time to time on which that load
presses, to afford relief in another form. The House
must also remember, that many of these taxes were raised
at different periods, when the Ministers were driven to
them, and bad no choice. They had, therefore, been ra-
ther adopted for the sake of revenue than of anything
else. But there is a still further consideration for us, be-
fore we decide on their repeal, which is, that though they
were only raised for temporary objects, they are now
mortgaged to the public creditor, and in meddling with
them, we must take care that we do nothing to diminish
the value cf their claims, or to shake the national credit.
The difficulty that there is on the subject is one that has
arisen in some measure frein the number of the various
branches of trade, influenced by taxation, and the va-
rious periods of their duration. But while I state this,
I am anxious not to have the House for a moment to
entertain a doubt, that the Government had considered
it to be its imperative duty to consider• this subject, and
to exercise that office, which is peculiarly its own, but
which the Honourable Gentleman appears to be desir-
ous to impose upon a Committee of this House. I shall,
therefore, altogether resist his motion, because I believe
that it must prove inconvenient to the public interests
to have all those topics to which the Honourable Gentle-
man has alluded, throw❑ into a Committee, and because,
to call on them to pronounce on a large mass of taxa-
tion must prove injurious to the best interests of the
country. Such a step must prove so front the very na-
ture of the subject, and still more from the course which
the Hon. Gentleman proposes to pursue. The Hon.
Gentleman has told us, that by appointing this Committee
we shall have the advantage of being able to call before us
a number of persons connected with the different trades on
which the taxes are most objectionable and oppressive ; and
that by this means we shall he able to enter into an inquiry
as to the possibility of removing the taxes on coals, glass,
paper, printed goods, tobacco, brandy, sugar, anti other
commodities. But if this is to be the case, can any one
doubt what would be the effect of such a course of proceed-
' ing ? Can any thing be suggested calculated to produce
greater anxiety and doubt ? Is there a trade that would
not instantly be thrown into a state of stagnation ?—(Hear,
hear. ).—But this will not be all. While these will be expos-
ed, from their fears of what may be the recommendations of
the Committee, to certain loss, others speculating what may
be the arrangements will endeavour to make profit of their
guesses, the end of which to many will be destruction and
ruin, besides which it will become the object of those
interested not to state the truth, but to represent it as may
best suit their own interests.—(Hear, hear. )—These are
some of the evils which I foresee would inevitably arise
front the appointment of such a Committee; and I think
that I ant justified in my conclusion when we recollect
how anxious persons appear to be to get at the pre-
liminary knowledge of Government, and how frequently
questions in this House are put to obtain an inkling of
what are the intentions of the Ministry. Let us look
only at the present Session, and remember how frequently
questions were put to me for the purpose of obtaining a
clew as to what I intended to propose with respect to tax-
ation. The Hon. Member for Cambridge, and my Hon.
Friend the Menthe'. for Stafford, over and over again
assured us that the malt trade was at a stand, and the beer
no better, till the intentions of Government were made
known. If all these consequences arise from the silence
only of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, how much more
is to be expected from the operations of a Committee, the
proceedings of which are much more easily got at, and
much more open to conjecture?—(Hear, hear.)—Other
difficulties also present themselves to my mind. The Hon.
Gentleman has told us of the taxes which he proposes
either to modify or to repeal ; but he has not sufficiently
indicated the course by which he proposes to supply the
deficiency. The Hon. Gentleman has very ingeniously
argued from a number of documents, that in the repeal or
modification of many of the taxes there will be no danger;
and that, by diminishing the duty, we shall so far increase
the consumption of many articles as to fully compensate
any lowering of the tax.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. P.
Thompson.)—But we are to consider that in taking such
a step, we are dealing with an income of sixteen millions;
and that, therefore, to say the least of it, what the Hon.
Gentleman proposes is a very hazardous experiment—and
before I consent to any such measures, I must have before
me very sufficient documents to show me how the de-
ficiency is to be made up. We have heard from the lion.
Gent. that he proposes that a portion of this deficiency shall
be made up by a tax on the conveyance of property ;almt
according to his own showing, this is not to produce a
million and a half, while the repeal is to extend to
2,626,0001. Certainly I must say that I am not very
much enamoured of this mode of proceeding. But ir,
another part of his proposal, I find a yet more ebjec-
tionable course. He proposes the repeal of a !arge and
substantial portion of the revenue of the country,
which is specifically applied to a fund, from which the
debt of the country is to be paid, and to supply the defi-
ciency (till it shall cease) by an annual vote of credit. To
this proposition I must say that I listened with surprise,
astonishment, and deep regret, after• the declaration that
has been made, that money ought not to be borrowed in
a time of peace, so as to augment the debt. The Hon.
Gent, however, recommends that we should resort to this
proceeding, and for a temporary object only add to the
debt, which already burthens the country. But if the
Committee is appointed, will the Hon. Gent. guarantee
that this is the only one that shall be held to be temporary ?
Will he guarantee th t others shall not appear to be equally
capable of reduction? Fur I fear that if we once give our
consent to the principle of affording present relief from as
immediate pressure by a vote of credit, we shall find that
that mode will not be confined to the present period, but
become the habitual resource of the country. But there
is another point of view at which we are bound to look.
I ask, Sir, whether there is, or whether• there has been,
anything in the conduct of Government which requires
that the duty which has always devolved upon them should
be taken out of their hands and imposed upon a Committee
of this House.—( Hear, hear.)—Have they betrayed any
indisposition to consider the feelings and interests of the
people, in what they have lately done in the way of remis-
sion of taxation ? Have they shown any indisposition to
select those taxes for removal which appeared to bear
hardest upon that portion of the people wh ch is suffering
most at the present time?—(Hear, hear.)—On the
contrary, have they not rather been forward to begin
this course, which the Honourable Gentleman would
have us accomplish at once, but which can only he safely
touched upon by stlecting those taxes which, from their
circumstances, appear to be most prominently marked
for reduction? So far from having been remiss on this
point, we have been taxed with having gone beyond the
limits of sound discretion—with having hazarded the

revenue of the counlry, and having diminished those re•-
sources on which we have to depend for the reduction of
the debt. To this chirge I plead not guilty ; nor do I
confine myself to pleading only, for it admits of proof that
we have not been neglectful of our duty; and if we have
not gone to the full extent of what the Hon. Gentleman
has this night proposed, it has been because we could not,
consistently with the sentiments of the country, go
further.—(Bear, hear, hear.)—l have already stated to
this House in the co:n•se of the present Session, that
the Government took it into their consideration, how
far, by new imposts, it would be _ possible to relieve
the public from many of the taxes under which they are
now labouring. Having given their best consideration
to all the bearings of the subject, they determined to pur-
sue that course which, a few nights ago, I •V ad the honour
to state to the House. All that I have since heard upon the
subject has confirmed ine in the opinion, that what I then
proposed was the best and most prudent course to be adopt-
ed ; with which we are to take the consideration, that Go-
vernment has not by this step endangered any future expe-
riment of that principle which all Governments ought to
have in view, for the purpose of extending further relief.
Feeling that we have not neglected our duty as Members of
his Majesty's Government, nor the charge which devolves
upon us, of considering from time to time, the revision of
the taxes of the country—l for one cannot consent to
abandon what I considered to be my duty, nor concur
in the motion of the Honourable Gentleman for a Com-
mittee. The Honourable Gentleman, in the course of his
speech, has attempted to show that the plan which he
proposes was recommended in former times by Mr. Pitt.
No one can think higher of Mr. Pitt as a most able and
experienced financier than I do ; but I am sure that I do
not know to what part of Mr. Pitt's conduct the Hon.
Gentleman allude. It is true th it Mr. Pitt did, in the
first period of a cessation of pressure, take an opportunity
of making a commutation of some taxes for others ; but
did he by so doing endanger the whole revenue of the
country? Did he take off at one sweep an enormous por-
tion of that revenue, and trust to chance to replace it ?
The course that Mr. Pitt adopted was just the reverse, for
he first raised the taxes so as to establish the credit of the
country, and the❑ afforded relief to those who were most
labouring under -presiure. Sir, I shall forbear entering
upon any of those details to which the Honourable Gentle-
man has adverted, for to go through them would occupy
more of the time of the House than I could reasonably ex-
pect to engross. With respect to the Stamp Duties, I
have already stated that it is my intention to propose a
modification of them in the course of the present Session,
and it will then he in the power of the Hon. Gentleman,
or of any other Hon. Member, to bring forward any mo-
tion on the subject. With regard to the Hon. Gentleman's
objection to the Excise, it is not necessary that I should
contest the point with him. Of the inconveniences which
attend the mode of collecting it, I am fully sensible ; but
great as those inconveniences are, it is our paramount duty
to be most cautious in meddling with the subject. For
these reasons I feel it to he my duty to oppose the Hon.
Gentleman's motion for a Committee.—(Hear.)
Mr. BANKES declared his intention of supporting this
motion for a committee, as he was anxious to open the
whole subject of the taxation of the country. The taxation
of the country was the main cause of its distress, and he
differed front many of the positions laid down by the Hen.
Member for Dover. The Right Hon. Gent. had admitted
that a commutation of taxes had been at one time
under the consideration of his Majesty's Government. He
was sorry that, as such had been the case, that commuta-
tion had not been adopted. He thought that there was no
better mode of relieving the distress of the country than by
commuting the taxes which pressed on the lower for taxes
which affected the richer classes of society.
Mr. ROBINSON rose to state a fact which would show
that the Hon. Member for Dover had not made an accurate
estimate of our exports to France and Portugal respectively.
It appeared that during the last period for which the official
returns were made out, the British and Irish exports to
Portugal amounted to 2,506,7551., whilst those to France
amounted to only 546,9311.
Mr. MABERLY was surprised that Government should
object to the motion of the Hon. Member for Dover on ac-
count of its general nature, when they had consented to the
appointment of the Finance Committee, the objects of which
were of a more general character. There was one point
upon which he could not concur with the Hon. Mover,—
namely, his recommendation of the imposition of a property-
tax in time of peace.
Mr. BARING believed that the country would exile•
rience no material relief from a change of the system of
taxation. He did not mean to deny that the reduction of
taxation upon particular articles would increase the con-
sumption of them. He was ilesirons of seeing an experi-
ment of that nature tried, but unfortunately the recent
measures of Ministers had rendered that impossible. Ile
could not here avoid declaring, that, in his opinion, the
House of Commons had never lent its sanction to a more
profligate arrangement than that which left the country
without a sixpence of surplus revenue. The Hon.
Mover who proposed to reduce taxation to the extent
which he lied stated in his speech, contented himself with
merely hinting at the ways and means which he would
substitute for them. In fact, the only suggestion he had
offered upon this point was borrowed from Mr. Hum-
phreys—namely, the imposition of a legacy duty on land,
which he was sure would not find favour in that House.
It was art odious and improper tax. It would render it
necessary that the property of every gentleman should be
valued after his death. He thought that the question of a
property-tax ought to be fairly met. His own opinion
was, that a property-tax should never be imposed in this
or any other• country, except to meet the emergencies of
war. In time of peace it was a tnost oppressive and
inquisitorial tax. If .a property-tax should be im-
posed, it would be necessary to except from its ope-
ration all capital employed in industry. With
the small profits which were at present obtained
front capital, it was impossible that any one would under-
take an adventure, with the Government for a partner
to time extent of 10 per cent. in the profits without any
liability to loss. It was true that this bad bee❑ endured
during war; but then at that period the whole system was
a bubble from beginning to end, and we were now paying
dearly for it. Then, if the exception he had mentioned
were made, great part of the property of the country
would escape the operation of the tax, because its owners
would immediately employ it in commercial transactions.
So far from inducing the people to live in this country, he
believed that a property-tax would create ten absentees for
one now existing- It appeared to him that the Hon.
Mover was completely mistaken in supposing that a partial
reduction of taxation would enable the, Government to get
rid of the machinery by which the revenue was collected,
'I he Hon. Member said, that by reducing the impott duties
one half, we might get rid at mace of the coast blockade.
He believed that a reduction of duty to that extent would
not enable Government to dismiss a single man of the coast
blockade. In conclusion, the Hon. Member repeated his
wish that Government bad retained a surplus of revenue,
in order to enable them to make some experiments as to
the possibility of increasing the consumption of certain
articles by the reduction of the taxes at present imposed
on them, and thus benefitting the public without injury
to the revel-me.

Mr. E. DENISON supported the motion.
General GASCOYNE expressed his determination to
oppose the motion, and he was certainly astonished at the
quarter in which it had originated, as well as the conduct
of those by whom it was supported. He would say, that
if his Majesty's Ministers were this night overpowered by
a majority, they would be obliged to come down to the
House and propose a property-tax.--( Hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON said, it had been stated that if
this Committee were appointed, the necessary consequence
must be the establishment of a property tax. Now this
he looked upon to be a premature assumption. It would
be the duty of that Committee to look to the various
sources of revenue, and to inquire whether, by judicious
management, the amount now derived from them might
not be increased, so as to meet the expenditure of the
country. If they found that they could not effect that
object by an alteration in the existing system, then, and
then only, it would be right for them to resort to the mea-
sure of which the Gallant General had spoken. The Hon.
Member then proceeded to state that there were many
articles, and amongst them timber, from which a much
larger revenue might be raised than they produced at pre-
sent. It; for instance, the duty on timber imported from
the Baltic were placed on a level with the duty of timber
imported from Canada, there would be a gain to the
country of 1,500,0001. a year.
Lord ALTHORP observed, that if the Committee of
Finance had been allowed to proceed with its labours,
there would have been no necessity fbr the present motion ;
because that Committee would have, in their different re.
taken a systematic view of all the taxes of the ceun-
try, and laid down principles by which the House might
be guided in future. The absence of such great leading
principles had led to this result,—that the taxes taken off
were not those which were best calculated to relieve the
productive industry of the country. He was of opinion
that the system of timber duties was most impolitic; and
on that point lie entirely coincided with the Hon. Member
who bad just. spoken. They haul the effect of encourag-
ing the use of the worst timber, seeing that a very heavy
duty was laid on the best. With respect also to the wine
duties, they might be rendered more beneficial to the re-
venue ; because there could be no question that if the
duties on French wines were lessened, the consumption of

hone ',Ana would be increased. It was quite clear that
the heavy tax on French wines prevented them from being
brought into general use. It had been said that if this
Committee. were granted, a property tax would, as a mat-
ter of course, be la commended. Now he did not see that
that was at ad a necessary eonseqn,.nce. It certainly
ought he the result of the appointment of the Committee....
(Ilear)—lit it would not I,y any means be a necessary
consequence of an acquiescence in the motion. Much had
been said about property tax, and he believed that on
that point he differed considerably from his friends
about him. Still he had no hesitation in saying,
that, to grant relief to the productive population by a
reduction of taxes, and to impose a property tax to
meet the deficiency thus occesioned, would be a very
good measure.—(Hear, hear.)—That was his own indivi-
dual opinion. The Gallant General might say, that he
was inconsistent in what he now said, when his present
was contrasted with his former opinion : and, perhqs, it
might seem to many that he was so. I3ut the country
was now in a situation very different from that in whirl' it
was formerly placed ; and lie would say to the land-owner,
that if a property-tax of 10 per cent. were impose!, he
would be the gainer : because he thought that the land-
owner, in consequence of the existing distress, and the
large sums %% hid' he was obliged to advance for the main-
tenance of the poor, lost considerably more than 10 per
cent, on his rents. He was perfectly convinced, that it
was the ill-arranged state of the taxes, more than the
amount of taxes, that pressed heavily on the country. It
was said, " If you grant this committee, it will be an ab-
dication, by the House, of its functions." Now when the
Right lion. Gentleman rose to make his financial state-
ment, he had hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would
have gone into a general inquiry with reference to the tax-
ation of the country, which would have rendered the
present proceeding unnecessary. But that was not the
case. He had heard nothing from the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite to satisfy his mind on that subject, and
therefore he should support the motion for a committee of
inquiry.

Mr. HERRIES sail that, in his opinion, the motion
had a two-fold, nay, he might assert, a three-fold object.
It went first to effect a certain specific reduction of taxa-
tion. l next embraced an inquisition into the whole state
of the taxation of this country,—an inquisition to be car-
ried on in a Committee which the Hon. Member for
Dover proposed, and of which he, of course, if the motion
were agreed to, would be at the head. In addition to this,
as had been stated by almost every gentleman who had
spoken on the question, they might be expected, in that
committee, to consider a proposition for a property tax, in
substitution of many taxes which the lion. Member was of
opinion ought to be repealed.—(Hear.)—Now, speaking
of the Hon. Gentleman's budget, he must say, that it was
particularly unfortunate. Unquestionably it was not re•
ceived, even by the Hon. Gent. who supported the mo-
tion, with any thing like the favour that was shown to his
Right Hon. Friend, when, on a former evening, he made
his financial statement. The Hon. Member for Callington
calla(' the proposition of the Hon. Mover a profligate pro-
posal, and the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire took the earliest
opportunity of reprobating this extra(); dinary budget.—
For his own part, he would ask, what could be a more pre-
posterous, what a more miserable expedient, than the rais-
ing of successive loans or votes of credit? The Hon. Member
said, only one vote ; but he would say, successive votes of
credit; because, if they once took that course, they would,
of necessity, be compolled to pursue it.—(Hear.)---He
must, on the grounds stated by his Right Hon. Friend,
object to the policy of such a Comtnittee as that which was
now proposed. For his own part, he conceived that no
benefit could result from a Committee in which, as it
would embrace an investigation into the whole taxation of
the country, such an infinite variety of details must be
considered. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded
to argue, that if a Committee were appointed, with the
extensive powers now called for, it would absolutely put a
stop to trade. While it was known that taxes affecting
this or that branch of manufacture were under the con-
sideration of the Committee, individuals who were inte-
rested in their decision would be deterred from going on
in their regular course. The conduct of Government
always had been to keep as secret as possible any intended
alteration in the taxes. The reason was very obvious;
because, if an idea of their intention went abroad, it was
sure to give rise to speculation. Now it did appear to
him, that the labours of a Committee, invested with the
extensive powers of that now called for, would lead to
that result, and therefore for that, amongst many other
reasons, ought not to be granted.
Sir H. PARNELL was much surprised to hear from
the Hon. Member for Callington that there was nothing
in the system of taxation which required a change. He
thought that any man who looked to the state of 'manu-
factures in the Netherlands, as described in The Fmign
Quarterly Review, would see that we had no time to
lose in removing those burthens which pressed upon our
productive industry. Respecting the duties of the Com-
mittee, his impression was, that they would chiefly con-
sist in classing the taxes, so as to point out which might
most advantageously be removed ; and this would be a
matter of infinite importance, because the measures pur-
sued since 1815 in the repeal of taxes were one series of
errors. He denied that there was anything in the motion
which necessarily implied the imposition of a property
tax, because the amount of two millions and a half, which
his Hon. Friend proposed to reduce, could be redeemed by
other means. In conclusion, he said they ought to take
all means to promote the accumulation of wealth and the
reward of industry. The undue pressure of taxation was
the principal obstruction to this ; it should, therefore, be
revised ; and he would vote for the Committee.
Mr. PEEL said that at that late hour he should address
himself to the considerations of paramount importance,
arising out of the question before the House, and thereby
he should disembarrass himself of the details into which the
Hon. Member for Dover had entered. The proposal was,
—a proposal made for the first time in Parliament,—that
a Select Committee should be appointed for revising and
considering the whole system of the taxation of the coun-
try.—(Hear.)—lt was something wonderful that it had
never occurred before, that the whole power of the Go-
vernment and of time Parliament should be thus delegated to
a Select Committee of 21.--(Hear.)—lt was a practice
founded on good sense that the House should reserve to it-
self the power which the Hon. Member wished to devolve
on a Select Committee ; that the House, possessing ample
information upon all time necessary points, should not
transfer to any delegated pot don of it those powers which a
House of Coinmons ought to exercise of itself. And let it
be recollected that the House of Conunons had fought the
battles of taxation against Ministers, upon former occa-
sions, without Committees. Even in the time of Sir
Robert Walpole the excise tax was rejected by the House
without any inquiry in a Committee. The shop tax, pro-
posed by Mr. Pitt, had been defeated without any Com-
mittee. In 1907 Lord Henry Petty proposed a duty on
iron, which had been defeated in that House. In 1817 the
House had defeated the intention of the Government to
continue the property tax ; and with respect to this tax he
(Mr. Peel) advised the House whether a property tax was
advisable or not, to start fair on the question,:and not have
it decided in a Select Committee.—(Hear, hear.)—He
(Mr. Peel) gave no opinion on the expediency of a
property tax; but he advised gentlemen in that
House, and those of the landed interest especially,
to reserve this question to themselves, or at least
to throw the responsibility of proposing it upon
the Government, and not permit Government to
screen and shelter itself from responsibility under a Select
Committee.—(Hear, hear.) Almost all those who had
advocated the appointment of the Committee had contem-
plated a property tax as a necessary consequence of it.—
The Hon. Member for Dover, indeed, did not (to use a
homely phrase) let the cat out of the bag—but he suffered
a little kitten to escape, which showed pretty well what
the cat would be. He proposed a legacy duty on real
property, which, he said, would add 1,500,0001. to a
property tax. If there were any Irish Members present,
he would beg to advertise them that Ireland had been ex-
empted from the property tax ; and supposing that there
should be a fair proportion of Irish members in the Com-
mittee of 21, Irish members would perform their duty to
their constituents, by rejecting the proposal of a property
tax, leaving such a proposal to the Government. He
(Mr. Peel) could not conceive how a Parliamentary Com-
mittee could discharge the duties which the Hon. Member
proposed to impose upon it. Was the Committee to make
a report recommending a remission of taxes in the present
Session or in a future Session ? If in,the present Session,
the consequence of that would be, that there would be a
second budget, founded, not on the opinions of his Ma-
jesty's Government, but of the Select Committee.—
Hitherto it had been considered that proposals for the
im-
position of taxes belonged to the Crown, and that it seas
an encroachment on the privileges of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters to interfere in that province. Besides, the Com-
mittee would not be a Committee of Secrecy, and
every memher could divulge what took, place there.—
Witnesses would be shrewd enough to perceive the bias
of the Committee ; the effects which the inquiry would
have on trade would be serious ; every one con-
nected with trade would be pressing forward to be examined
in order to serve his own purposes. The members of this
Committee of twenty-one would be, in fact, the most
powerful men in the House, and their power would pro
Canto diminish that of every other Member. If the House
adopted the motion of the Hon. Member, it would be
abandoning to twenty-one of its Members 501110 of its most

rine pteodr ttaon
sulytions. delegation Ono
of functions
therefore, he of
and although the Non. Member for Dover disavowed any
hostility to Government by his motion, he (Mr. Peel) put
YegtiroV;roperly its own ;
it to the sense of the House whether his Majesty's Ministers
would not be degraded by its adoption.—(Hear.)—The
Chancellor of the Exchequer would be virtually super-
seded; for whilst he sat in Downing-street, with dimi-
nished power, which were intrusted to him for the public
good, and with a broken staff of office, a Chancellor of the
Exclitepieri hacked by a Select Committee, would be ex--
ercising his futictions within the purlieus of that House. if
the intention of the tote Vras to show a distrust of his
Majesty's Government, it fii;:setild be expressed in a manner
less prejudicial to the public interests. The Ministers of
the Government should be upheld in the exercise of their
jii,t influence and power ; it was no ;anger a Government
when, although in possession of place, ii was discredited
in the estimation of the public.---(Hear.)--He (Mr. Peel)
would ten times rather support the pretensions of the Hon.
Member for Dover to fill the situation of ChaiScellof of
the Exchequer, appointed by the Crown, than centeent to
remain in office a nominal servant of the Crown, hut
merely registering the edicts of a Select Committee.
Mr. BRIGHT spoke against the motion. It was the
duty of the House to keep this power to itself, and not
intrust it to a Committee. The House should be jealous of
parting with its power in respect to taxation. He never
could consent to the imposition of a property tea.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the only part of the
speech of the Hon. Member for Dover, from which he
entirely dissented, was the proposal of a vote of credit ;
lie understood him to propose successive votes of credit,
He :tercel with the Right Hon. President of the Beard of
Trade (Mr. Herries), that when is first step in thie way
was taken, no one knew where it would step. He could
not agree with the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel), that
if the House supported this motion, on any view of is
suhject which was net consistent wish the view of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, it would be placing the Govern-
ment in such a situation that it would he more manly and
consistent to declare that the House placed no confidence
in his Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.)—The Chancellor of
the Exchequer had gone further, and stated that it would
almost amount to a misprision of treason, or at least a
slight on the Government, for any other than the Chen-
cellor of the Exchequer to propose the repeal of A tax.—
(Ilear.)—With respect to referring questions of ea:nation
to a Committee, without going so far back as Sir Robert
Walpole, examples might be found is favour of the prac-
tice in recent times. The silt duty had been referred to a
Committee, who were expressly instructed to inquire into
the best mode of commuting it.—(Hear.)—Two different
Committees had reported on the propriety of taking of the
tax on leather. In these eases, there had been no alarms
in the public mind, no change of Government, end no
loss of confidence by his Majesty's Ministers.
the House could not refer each subjects to a Com-
mittee without cndangeriug the safety of the country,
it had better give up inquisition altogether.—(Hear,
hear.)—What were the Committees on foreign
trade, and the Committee which recommended taking
off the prohibition from silk manufactures? It had been
the same with bullion, the currency, the 1/. notes in 1826 ;
—they were all measures whirls affected the interests of
lard-owners. Even that great subject, the Corn question,
came before a Committee.—(Hear, hear.)—One great
point in th it question was, whether there should be an en-
tire prohibition of the import of foreign corn, or a tax.
Those who were so sanguine as to anticipate a possibility
of reducing any of our present taxation, vritheut substi-
toting new taxes instead, would naturally first direct their
inquiries with respect to the bearings of the present eye-
tem, and this could be most effectually accomplished by
the appointment of a Select Committee. The Hon.
Member for Dover had not touched upon the malt tax, yet
it was not a subject to be over-looked, particularly when
they bore in mind that the Excise regulations added at
least 50 per cent. in restraint and annoyance to the hard-
working industry of the country, beyond what they were
the means of bringing in to the revenue. It had been
said that this was the province of Government, not of a
Committee; but he asked in return, fcr what reason they
had selected the leather tax for repeal? Wu it not be-
cause the disproportionate relation of loss to the people
with gain to the revenue had been already pointed out?
The Hon. Member for Bridport had alluded to the mode
of taxing foreign timber, and he fully concurred in all
that he had said as to its impelicy. We certainly in-
creased the employment of our shipping, but it could not
be maintained that we promoted the interests of the
country. Ile did not, however, look forward to the
repeal of a single tax which had been pointed out,
Lot only desired to examine into the proportion be-
tween the actual burden imposed upon the people, and the
amount of taxation received into the Exchequer. Timers
was no intention of taking the Budget oat of the hands of
Government, but this good would at all events result,—
the opinions of independent
,ifiokn3esitiwhnosior tMemberseldrweg,a
oyai,sffi
Hatton:idle!
yhbteeos
should
othriaell
eictnit:igtel
bit/tile:l
Forced
practica-
bility
nmp autristitiecguarlaaddrotii)art
ileolrylnu
make
esteemed expedient and feasible on examination by the
thinking part of the community. This, he acknowledged,
was all the benefit which he contemplated, as he did not
expect any further reduction of taxation daring the pre-
sent Session, without the substitution of other taxes in-
stead. With regard to his own imputed squeamishness
about the property-tax, he should only say, that it had
been his object only to point out how far the mode of levy-
ing such a tax in these times ought to differ from that in-
troduced at the period of the war. He bad merely ex-
pressed a doubt that the country would ever right itself
without receiving some greater relief Aim could possibly
be administered by a direct repeal of taxation. The method
of levying the revenue was a snbjert fraught with interest
Ito all who desired to see economy practised in the manage-
ment of the State, and lie could see nothing irregular in
proposing such an inquiry, more especially at a time when
a general impression was entertained throughout every part
of the kingdom, that the agricultural and manufacturing
interests could not exist under the pressure of the existing
direct taxation upon industry. Agriculture was actually
represented to be in a state of progressive deterioration, cud,
under such circumstances, they ought not to delay longer
if they wished to interpose between the farmer and utter
destruction, which it was but too likely might prove
tae consequence of such delay. Another great source of
public burden Wes to be traced to prohibitions and re-
straints, which equally demanded an attentive consialera-
tion. If relief were granted to the operative industry of
the country—te the millions of consumers, the lauded in-
terest, he felt assured, would at once experience the good
effects of the benefit which accrued from it. In Birming-
ham alone, it was ascertained that the consumption of most
had diminished by one-third, and it was thus made ap-
parent that the market prices, under the regent system,
would fall lower than was consistent with the interests of
the country and the maintenance of the revenue. The
Hon. Member for Callington had alluded to the case of
France ; but France, it ought to be remembered, was set
near so extended now as during the revolutionary war—
ts war actually occasioned by the heavy taxes which op-
pressed the people at the time. Freese in those days, un-
der a military government, eould not raise 4,60,000,000
of revenue, and he had no hesitation in saying that a de-
ficiency of 60,000,000 had been the immediate cause of
that revolution. Rut what was her condition at present?
Why, she was able to pay a thousand millions. It was
his unalterable conviction that we could not uphold the
corn laws now in existence, together with the taxation,
compatibly with national prosperity or public contentment.
That these laws could be repealed without affecting the
landed interest, whilst the people would be relieved from
their distress, he never had any doubt whatever. It was
a general feeling that some change must be effected, and
that soon ; nor were there any more thoronhly per-
persuaded of it than those who moved in the humblest
walks of life. Whether a Committee of inquiry would be
appointed or not, he was gratified that this motion had been
made, as the discussion wend no doubt attract that atten-
tion which the luminous discourse of the Noble Lord in
itself well deserved, for its rigour of argument, apart from
all other considerations, suggested by such a sot jeer.
Mr. BRIGHT stated, in explanation, that it was his
intention to move for a repeal of sonar specific tax before
the end of the session.

Mr. PEEL explained that his objection to the motion
arose as well from its hying unpredeated in Parliament as
because the committee it recommended would be unlimited
in its character.

Sir C. BURRELL, as we understood, supported the
petition, but the few words that he said were lost in the
gallery, owing to the noise and confusion in the House.
Mr. WESTERN said, he should be reluctantly com-
pelled to vote against the motion of his Hon. Friend, on
the ground that such a committee as he recommended
would supersede the House of Commons in the exercise of
its legitimate and natural functions. Sugar, assessed taxes,
stamp duty, were subjects which it w-aa their duty presently
to discuss; and he might also add the corn question, as it
had been announced that it would shortly be brought be-
fore them; but on all those important topics they must
remain silent and suspend their rightful powers, if they
appointed this Committee. He was not favourable to any
proposition which went to take so momentous a charge
from the responsible hands of Ministers, in order to vest it
in an irresponsible body Eke a Committee.--(Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said, he should merely, at that
late hour, offer a few remarks In explanation of the grounds

h which he intended to vote in support of tit 's
emotion. He was the more desirous to do so, as he stood
et a peculiar and singular situation, according to the opi-
nion expressed by his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary
for the Home Department. That Right Hon. Gentleman
Lad observed that no person spoke in favour of the motion
before the House who did not also profess himself Iw:cur-
able to a property-tax. He, however, was an bxceptieen
amongst those who. should so vote, as he did -dot desire to
recoettnend a property-tax. Nay more,, tlie bias of his
mind was against the imposition of suet,, a tax as a substi-
state for those upon articles of consr•,mption. If it were
4nly to affect the rent of land, it mast, necessarily be partial
and heavy upon those to whim", prct:ndice it operated. If
it were imposed on the prerdts of capital, it would leave
the country nearly in the. Game distress which was prevalent
at present. He should support the motion fee a Commit-
tee, hoping that it 'might ascertain to what extent the
inconvenience atti:ndant on raising the existing taxes could
be abated, or ":ehether the system of inquisitorial inspection
conic, not 'oe entirely abolished. It had been justly
said that, the taxes on production were ultimately on con-
surold!,on ; but passing that part of the subject altogether,
Ir., thought that the able exposition of the manner of levy.-
log taxes at present adopted, which had been made by the
Hon. Member for Dover, ought of itself to induce the
House to accede to his proposition. Indeed, the recent
statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer tended
much to the same effect, and it was now high time to in-
stitute an inquiry for the purpose of deciding whether hel
bad adduced solitary instances of his mismanagement in
the important matter of taxation. 'When, he asked, had
the inexpediency of their mode of taxation been revealed to
Ins Majesty's ministers? If they had been aware of it
brfare, why did they neglect to alter it until the present
se'rsten ; or did they mean to allege that the discovery and
reformation were precisely coincident in point of time ?
it was but fair to infer that what was true of the beer and
leather taxes might be true of many others, in which case '
itwas not unlikely that they were now paying 12,000,000/.
a year, which never went to the support of their national
expenses. The Noble Lord concluded with deprecating
the assumption that those who voted with the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dover were necessarily friends to the imposition of
a property-tax.
Ater a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-
CIIECIITER, and Lord PALMERSTON, in explanation, which
were not distinctly heard in the gallery,
Mr. P. THOMSON briefly replied. He complained
that those Hon. Members who followed him in opposition
to his motion left out of consideration the real merits of
what lie said, and rested their objections upon inferences
as to the object of his motion which he had never intended
to draw. They never stated that his proposal would net
prove beneficial, hut confined themselves to appealing to
the feelings of those who were known to he opposed to a
property tax, which it formed no part of his plan to pro-
pose. It was not his wish to delegate the powers of the
Howse to a Committee. All he asked was, for an oppor-
tunity to get information on the subject of taxation, which
would he useful in directing the House in its future pro-
ceedings as to what taxes were best to be continued or
repealed._

The House then divided
For the motion, 78 I Against it, 167 I Majority, 89.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter to Three o'clock.

POLICE INTELLICENCE.

UNION-HALL

Yesterday a Miss Cynthia little, an antiquated damse
on the wrong side of 40, who described herself the au-
thoress of several poems, aria well knosto tn the literary
world, was brought before Mr. Swaney, charged with
circulating obscene books and prints of an immoral ten-
dency amongst the inmates of the King's Bench prison.
The defendant was dressed in the most fantastic style for a
woman of her years, and to heighten her charms she was
rouged np to the eyes.
Colwell, one of the turnkeys of the ptison, stated, that
having had information that a number of obscene prints
awl poems of the same licentious description had been in-
trusluced to the gaol by some person, he made a point of
ascertaining the individual. After repeated inquiries on
the subject, the imitates being ❑nailing to let him into the
secret, he at length obtained a sight of a poem, entitled,
" Encounter of Venus with a Mad Actor." On reading
a page or two of this work, which was i❑ blank verse, he
Mond it contained BO notch ohseenity of language, that
satisfied him such a production was unfit to be circiCated
in such a place as a prison, wig re there was contamina-
tio❑ enough without the introduction of books of that
kind. The turnkey having been informed that a female
seas in the habit of calling daily at the prison for the
purpose of disposing of prints and books of the descrip-
tion alluded to, kept a very strict look-out for the "lady,"
and was successful stopping her at the gate with a bag,
in which was a portfolio, containing a great number of
prints of the most disgusting nature, beaides several poems,
chiefly, of au amatory character, and clothed in language
so indecent as to he totally unfit to meet the eye. The
moment she was stopped she struagled bard to retain the
bag, but finding her entleavoura fruitless she proclaimed
herself the owner of the portfolio and its contents, and de-
clared herself to be the authoress of the poems, adding
that she only wanted to let a friend have a sight of her pto-
dnetions to arouse him, during his solitary confinement in
gaol. The turnkey however was deaf to her entreaties to
restore the portfolio, and by direction of the Marshal took
the defendant into custody, and forthwith brought her,
papers and all, to this office. The portfolio was opened
for the inspection of the Magistrate, and he turned over
the poems in order to ascertain the printer's name, but
none appeared to any of the works. There was a great
variety, and amongst them were those entitled " The
Plaster Cast, or a Phrenological poem." The " Star of
Eve, and Cynthia among the Gods." " Tete-a-tete
Scenes of various individuals with Venus; particularly
her conversation with Haybee, a college youth, which dis-
plays the mental character of this divinity." " Cupid
attacked by Satan." " The trial of Lothario for Seduc-
tion." " The Passion of Love discussed."

The Magistrate inquired whether any person could
prove having witnessed the defendant in the act of dis-
posing of any of the prints or poems now produced?
The turnkey, in reply, said that he stopp,l her as she
was going out of the prison, but did not see her either sell
or exhibit any of them t) public view.
Two female servants belonging to the gaol, stated that
the defendant called at the room of a prisoner, and re-
quested them to exhibit the prints to the occupier, to see
if he would become a customer. They refused to comply
with the request, having received directions should a female
of the description of the defendant call there with papers,
to refuse her admittance.

The Magistrate asked the defendant what she had to say
in answer to the charge ? A number of the most obscene
prints and books of a very indecent kind were found in
her possession. The charge, however, against her was not
tOr circulating such abominable tra-sh, but for having books
of such a nature in her possession without a printer's name
affixed to any of them.
The defendant, in a soft tone of voice, implored to have
a private interview with the Magistrate, intimating, that
as she saw reporters present, she felt great diffidence in ex-
ptaining the cause of her present unhappy situation. If
the Magistrate was only pleased to give her the desired op-
portunity of explaining herself, she would satisfy him that
dice necessity compelled her to write in the strain of the
poems now produced. She had written some on moral
subjects, but found they had no sale, and, on changing the
style, and reversing the subject, she then found that she
obtained readers for her works.

The Magistrate said that no hope of reward could have
justified her in penning such a lewd and wicked writing.
If she ever had possessed a respectable character in the
world, it would now be blasted for ever, and most de-
servedly so ; for her conduct was even worse than the most
degraded of unfortunate women daily placed at the bar of
that office. She had represented that she was well known
in the literary world. If such was the ease—an assertion,
however, which he was disposed to place very little de-
pendence upon—it was high time that the character of her
writings should be proclaimed, in order to have her works
scouted from all decent society.
The defendant again applied for a private interview, but
this was rejected by the 'Magistrate, who intimated his de-
termination not to hold any private communication with a
woman capable of acting as she had done.
The defendant declared her intention to write no more
in the same strain. She was at present engaged on a sub-
ject of great importance—namely, the Catholic question,
which was nearly ready for the Press, and ii she was only
permitted to go at large and finish the article, she should
abandon all poetry, and stick to writing in prose, for the
benefit of her fellow-creatures.

The Magistrates having consulted, inflicted a fine of 201.
on the defendant, for having a hook in her poss,ssio„ of an
immoral description, without the printer's name affixed to
it, and in default of payment she was committed to the
Howse of Correction for the space of four calendar months.

An adjourned Inquest was held on Tuesday
last, at Dublin, on the body of Mr. O'GRADY, who fell in
the late unhappy duel with Captain SMITH. Nothing
material tran•pired at the inquisition, which was still far-
ther adjouractl tg Wctluviday,

LONDON,
FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 26, 1830.

We received the following this morning from
our Paris Correspondent

"PARIS, MARCH 24,

" An extraordinary sensation was for a moment excited
at the French Court in the month of January last, by the
announcement of a pamphlet under the taking title of
Ileve!lations aux Chat-arcs sur l'Assassinat du Duc de
Berri.' This feeling was the mere intense, as the author
avowed himself under the name of Lieutenant-Colonel the

Baron de St. Clair, and intimated that the forthcoming
publication would be sold at his own residence. When the
work appeared, it was found to contain an open accusation
against several distinguished individuals, as having been
privy to the murder of his late Royal Highness the Duke
de Berry, and particularly the Dukes Decazes, d'Escars,
and de Maillv, the Viscount Paultre de Lamothe, and the
Count Lyon, who are boldly accused of having been the
accomplices of Louvel, the actual perpetrator of time deed.
" Au action having been raised against the author and the
printer before the tribunal of Correctional Police, at the
instance of the eminent individuals who were thus aspersed,
the cause was yesterday set down for hearing, and the
Court was filled at an early hour with crowds of foreign
officers, Peers of France, and other persons of distinction,
to witness the proceedings. The principal defendant ap-
peared at the bar very richly dressed, and covered with a
profusion of foreign orders and decorations, among which
were observed those of St. Ann and St. George of Russia.
and the Crescent of the Ottoman Empire. In person he
is tall and thin, Lis face long. his hair very light, wearing
large and red monist:it:hoes. His eyes are small, indiffe-
rently matched, and evidently weak, as they seemed to be
greatly dazzled by the light. The general cast of his
countenance is languid and phlegmatic, he appeared to
week with difficulty, his right hand was cased in a sort of
iron gauntlet, but..he discovered no want of confidence in
the air with which he surveyed the audience, casting a look
of disdainful indignation and defiance on the host of wit-
nesses arrayed against him.
" According to the custom in the courts of this country,
which appears much more efficient than ours for the accom-
plishment of the great object of judicial inquiry, that of
expiscating the truth, the accu'ed was interrogated by
the bench on the subject of his identity, and his author-
ship of the incriminated publication. He declared that

his neme was Charles Ferdinandee, Baron de St. Clair—
that he was horn at Landau, in Alsace, in 1779—that '
witit the exception of sane verbal emendations, he was the
.ele author of the pamphlet—and that the printer could
not have been fully acquainted with its contents, as he
only sent him a few sheets at a time.
" Before the Court proceeded to the examination of the
witnesses, the counsel for the defendant interposed to move
that the trill be postponed for a fortnight, ae sufficient time
had not been afforded for the examination of the docu-
ments intended to be produced in justification ; he urged,
moreover, that the accused being now in custody, was de-
in ived of the means of procuring other documents essen-
tial to his defence. It was further stated by counsel, that
the Court having been moved for a provisional discharge
out of custody, that course had been opposed on the part
of the plaintiffs, and as that question was still a lis pen-
dens, he objected to proceed to trial until the preliminary
matter had been disposed of: It was, however, decided
by the Court that the witnesses for the prosecution should
then be heard, without prejudice to the renewal of the
defendant's application for his enlargement from custody,
before proceeding with his defence.
" The first witness was the Count de Noe, an emi-
vent Nobleman of the highest character, who deposed,
that having had the honour to serve the British Govern-
ment in India, he there knew the defendant by the name
of NPLean, as a Captain in the 78th Regiment of Font.
While residing some years afterwards in the Isle of Wight,
he there again met with the defendant, who asked him for
an introduction to the Major Commandant, and in presence
of the witness stated to that: officer that he had lost cer-
tain certificates of wounds which he described, and at the
same time asked him for a fresh one. This was given in
consequence of the witness's introduction, anti to show
how easily the public purse is drawn upon in England,
it was stated, that two pensions hal been obtained by
means of these certificates, each au:ounting to 1001. per
annum, but that the falsehood of the facts thus certi-
fied, having afterwards been discoved M`Lean, when on
the eve of being brought to a Court-martial for the fraud,
had suddenly left England when his name was erased
from the Army List. The next time the witness met the
defendant was in the year 1815, in the gal dens of the
Tuileries. lie heard a voice behind him, which he in-
stantly knew to he that of 111`Lean, and said so to the
Countess de Noe, who was walking with him. The wit-
nese turned and saw the defendant in the uniform of a
French Colonel, with a number of decorations at his but-
ton-hole ; but on discovering that he was recognised, he
instantly disappeared among the crowd. About two
months ago, Count Noe added, that being on
duty at the Tuileries, he dined there with Prince
Polignac, who introduced the subject of the pam-
phlet
which had just appeared, and stated that it was
by a Baron St. Clair, whom the Prince described
so minutely, as to make the witness exclaim it was un-
doubtedly the portrait of his old acquaintance M`Lean.
The witness in consequence went to the house of the de-
fendant to buy the pamphlet, and having again recognised
him, observed that he had not always borne the name of
St. Clair ; but the defendant stoutly denied his identity
with the Cptain M'Lean of the 78th, or that he had ever
been in India or the Isle of Wight.
" The second witness, Colonel Gurwood, proved that
. .

he knew the defendant as ALjor M‘Lean in the Portuguese
service. The sane fact was also established by another
English officer named Knox, who declared that, although
he had not seen him for IS years, he recollected bins as
perfectly as if he had never lost sight of him. Major Fry,
another English officer, declared, that he had known the
defendant in Egypt and at Goa, under the name of
'lf•Lean. The defendant, however, persisted in declaring
hi•s ability to prove himself the Colonel Baron de St.
Clair.

" Witneslses were then heard on the part of General
l'aultre de Lamothe, whose testimony went to prove the
falsehood of the statements contained in the publication
complained of after which the further helriDtir of the

cane was postponed for eight days, k terms of the defend-
ant's request•

" In the absence of any private intelligence as to the
present state of political affairs in Paris on which I can
bid you rely, I enclose some extracts from our two English
prints, some part of which may possibly be new to you."

The following are extracts from the Gazette
de France of Thursday, and the Mcssager
des Chatnbres and Moniteur of Wednesday:—

of Holberg-Stolberg, at the age of 80, after a
short illness, on the 20th of February. The
Count was Major in the service of the King of
SAXONY.

Accounts have been received from Sidney to
the 23d Oct. last ; they had had fine rains, and
bread was failing in consequence, and meat
getting up to the usual market price, which had
been as low as 11-d. per pound, farmers being
obliged to sell their cattle from want of grass or
fodder for them.

From an article in a Maltese Journal, which
has just come to baud, we learn that the Trial
by Jury has been just introduced into the law
of that island.

We have no space to claer into particulars to-

day, but refer our readers to the excellent speech
of Mr. PAULETT THomrsoN upon the effects
of taxation generally, and, in particular, as it re-
gards the Newspaper Press. Upon this subject
we may also recommend the letter extracted from
that intelligent Paper the Scotsman, which will
be found in another part of The Sun.

Though it is a received maxim that no deli-
berate discussion is without its use, we are almost
disposed to doubt whether the protracted debate
on Mr. DAVENPORT'S motion has been worth

the time that has been spent in speechifying.
There is an old law proverb, that a Fraud lurks
in loose generalities ;" and, truly, no greater
opening for all sorts of delusion ca❑ be conceived

lan a Committee which would have embraced

the consideration of fifty different questions at
once—would have unsettled matters which had
been considered as set at rest for ever—and
would have excited hopes throughout the country
which could not by any possibility have been
gratified. Giving every credit, therefore, to Mr.
DAVENPORT, and his supporters, for their con-
scientious fulfilment of what they believed to be
their duty under the circumstances in which the
country at present labours, we think the House
have acted rightly in refusing to enter into an
inquiry of so very general a nature as that sought
for. The motion being, moreover, intended to
throw an indirect censure upon Ministers,
without any just or sufficient cause, was on this
account to be reprobated, as tending to
weaken the public confidence in a Govern-
ment, which, whatever may be its errors,
has not shown any inattention to our domes-
tic situation, nor any culpable indifference to
the complaints and wants of the people. There
has not, at any time, been a Government more
alive to public opinion than that of the Duke, of
WELLINGTON, and though the borough-mon-
gering and aristocratical influence preponderates
against the scale in which the general interest is
placed ; yet its mischievous power is insufficient
to prevent the popular voice from gradually
weighing it down. The Government is far from
resisting the sway of the aristocracy to the ex-
tent it ought to do, but it is not a sufficient
reason for a factious opposition to it, that it does
not, or cannot, effect all the good that is to be
derived.

There are, already, indications of the return
of activity to the manufacturing districts ; and
the advance of the spring will naturally add vi-
gour to their operations. A propitious harvest
may, after two bad years, be not unreasonably
looked for, which will, in a great measure, re-
vive the spirits of the agricultural interest. To
encourage despondency is to make bad worse, and
to dilate upon the good old times of the war is
as idle as it is mischievous. The higher classes,
who have the means of much private benevo-
lence in their power, should talk less about dis-
tress, and do more to relieve it. The ability to
live in, and enjoy, all the luxuries which the me-
tropolis can furnish, is no evidence of any pecu-

liar state of suffering; and when we look to the
increase in the use of plate, and in the consump-
tion of coAly wines—to the high prices which
articles of virtu, such as pictures, still fetch—
and to the constant routine of entertainments at
the west end of the town,—we certainly cannot
admit that our nobility and gentry have any great
reason to complain, so far as themselves are con-
cerned. Nor can we look, as some do, upon the
increase of luxury, as injurious to the country,
whilst every addition to the luxuries of the
rich—to the splendour of the gilded drawing-
room, or to the brilliancy of the most finely
dressed lady—is a certain excitement to industry,
and a means of subsistence for the poor.
It cannot be supposed that the causes which

swollen the incomes of Englishmen, as
compared with those of the inhabitants of
otio: countries, are likely to be perpetul.
The English landlord cannot reasonably
expect that he will for ever travel on

the Continent, as Milord Anglois, com-
manding the exclusive reverence of the hotel,
keepers and lacqueys de place, and turning the
French and Italian Nobility from the saloon to
the entresol, and from the entresol to the garret.
These things will in due time find their level.
We have got the start of the world in our powers
of production ; but other nations are becoming
active, and will interfere more and more with
our markets. Our best chance of retaining our
supremacy is, by alleviating the burthens upon
our industry, by relieving that industry from
monopolies, and by allowing it to turn
itself into the most productive channels.
But so long as the legislature listens to those
who prate about the currency—who uphold
Corn Laws and Chartered Companies—who
scoff at Free Trade—and who vote against re-
trenchment, and the reduction of taxes—there
is little hope of the preservation of our ascen-
dancy over other nations. If we have antago-
nists to contend with, our best prospect of pre-
vailing is, not by strait-lacing and fettering our-
selves, but by freely using the strength we pos-
i Sess.

SPRING TIDES.—On Friday morning next,
the spring tide is expected to rise higher in the Severn
than for many years past, consequently the singular and
magnificent phenomenon of the Ilygre or Severn Boar will
be seen to great advantage at the Parting, or at Stone-
bench, three miles below this eity...—Chltenhani Own,

SHIPPING IN i ELLIGENCEe-(THIS DAY.)

FROM LLOYD'S.

DEAL, MARCH 25.—Arrived the Fox, from the Medi-
terranean.

PORTSMOUTH, MARCH 25.—Wind W..—Arrived the
Harmony, Church, from New South Wales. Sailed
the Hope transport, for Cork.
FALMOUTH, MARCH 24.—Wind W. to W.N.W.—
Arrived his Majesty's steamer Comet, from the Mediterra-
nean, sailed from Corfu the 3d inst., Malta the sth,
Gibraltar the 16th, and Cadiz the 18th. Sailed the King-
fisher packet, for Plymouth ; and his Majesty's steamer
Meteor, for ditto.
LIVERPOOL, MAncit 24.—Arrived the Navy, Newell,
from New Orleans ; Lima, Wylie, and Envoy, Wheaton,
from Savannah ; and Amethyst, Nye, from Charleston.—
_ _

PENZANCE, MARCH 24.—Off port the John Frederick,
Besarg, from Havanna, and the Grampus, from Charleston
GRAVESEND, MARCH 25.—Sailed the Marquis of
Huntley, for New South Wales.

The Amethyst, Coithead, from Sydney, has arrived at
Liverpool—sailed the Sth of November, and from Van.
Dieman's Land the 2d December. . _

The Aruveda, Pepe, from St. Übe's, basarrived at Cork.
The Albion, Gell, from Leghorn, hal arrived at Pen-
zance.

The Rosebank, Boyd, from Belfast, and the Margaret
Maier, Barron, from Dublin, have arrived at Charleston.
The Lady Feversham, Ellerhy, from London, for New
South Wales, has arrived at Portsmouth.

THE FUNDS.-(THIS DAY.)

CITY, T WEL V R 0' CL 0 CK.

Hobart Town Papers to the 29th Nov., and Sydney
to the 21st. Oct., have been received at the North and
South American Coffee-house. They are rather interest-
ing in regard to two subjects. An official account has
been published relating to the Swan River, the other is the
case of Ikey Solomons.
From the Hobart Town Papers of the 2lst Nov., we
have the pleasure of laying before our readers the follow-
ing authentic and interesting particulars of the Swan
River :

Colonial Secretary Office, Nov. 19.

Sta,—Much interest and considerable contrariety of
opinion appearing to prevail in the colony, respecting the
new settlement of the Swan River, I have been authorized
by his Excellency, Lieutenant-Governor Arthur, to send
you the following extract :
Transport ship Georgiana, Gage's Roads, 0ct.18,1829.
have the honour to acquaint your Excellency
that we sailed from Partridge Island on the 2d Sept.,
and after experiencing very heavy weather, came
to anchor in these roads on Monday, the sth instant,
to obtain fresh supplies of wood and water. With regard
to the anchorage, it is generally admitted to be decidedly
unsafe, from its being exposed to the swell of the ocean
from the W.N.W. to nearly N.N.E. In a gale just before
our arrival the Marquis of Anglcsea was driven on shore;
there is a very bad bar at the entrance of the river, which
is most dangerous, being studded with rocks, some of
which appear above water, and extend nearly across, leav-
ing a very narrow passage for small boats even within the,
bar, which has not more than from four to five feet water.
The navigation, except for the flattest light empty beats,
is interrupted by extensive shoals, stretching across the
river for an extent of more than one mile and a half; after
which a deep channel, taking a most zigzag course, may
be traced for about six miles till the site intended for the
town of Perth comes in view, when it again becomes very
difficult from extensive mud flats. The north and south
heads of the river are two flats with broken rocks, and
round the S.E. of the southernmost is the only landing-
place for the cattle and stores ; the landing-place is both
inconvenient and unsafe. Cockburn Sound is said to be a
safe anchorage. In regard to the soil, the lands upon the
Swan River, commencing about four miles above the
town, appear to be very fine, and especially well-watered
flats along both banks of the river, and are considered by
the country bred people to be very good, and certainly
very superior to any that I have seen in New South Wales.
The flats are extremely rich, looking most beautiful.
Altogether the appearance of the land is highly favourable
for the purposes of colonization. There are cow seven
vessels at anchor in these roads."
Isis SOLOMONS.—We mentioned in our last that a
person of the name of Ikey Solomon had been committed
to prison, charged with having committed certain offences
in England. Mr. Gallibrand, having obtained an Habeas
Corpus, moved on Monday for his discharge on grounds
so conclusive, that we apprehend it is impossible to contro-
vert them. The Attorney-General opposed the applica-
tion, and the Chief Justice not having decided, we forbear
entering into particulars on the subject. We have much
pleasure in stating that his Excellency the Governor kindly
consented that Mrs. Solomons, a Crown prisoner, should
be permitted to remain with her little infant family for
their protection.