The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEN T.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 17.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
Lord HADDINGTON presented a petition from
the Justices of the Peace, and others, praying that
means might be taken for the completion of the Cale-
donian Canal.
Lord ROSEBERY presented a petition from the
county of Edinburgh, against any endowment of the
Church of Scotland.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH wished to call
the attention of the Noble Viscount opposite to the
circumstance that a Session or two ago he brought the
subject of the lay patronage of Church livings in Ireland,
as existing under the sixth of Ann, and supposed to be
protected by the Crown during the non-conformity of
Roman Catholics, under consideration. A Noble Friend
of his was in that situation. His father having been a
Roman Catholic, he conformed to the Church of Eng-
land, and asserted his rights to certain livings in the dio-
cese of Westmeath, upon which he succeeded. Another
of those livings had fallen vacant,but the Lord Lieutenant
had bestowed that living upon the nephew or the son of
one of the Judges of the Queen's Bench, who had been
appointed by the present Government. There could be
no doubt that his Noble Friead's title to those liv-
ings was clear, and that it would be an ex-
tremely hard thing to drive him to a litigation
upon this subject with the Crown, when from
the Crown he could get no costs. Under these circum-
stances he hoped the Noble Viscount would take the
means of having the matter fairly and equitably con-
sidered.
Lord MELBOURNE said he should inquire into the
circumstances.
Earl STANHOPE gave notice that to-morrow se'n-
night ho should present to their Lordships several peti-
tions praying for Universal Suffrage, Triennial Parlia-
ments, and Vote by Ballot, upon which he should take
occasion to submit some considerations, as he considered
those subjects were such as to demand the serious atten-
tion of the House.
Lord HADDINGTON wished to put a question
to the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack.
It would be in the recollection of the House that he
brought under the attention of the House last Session
the fact of certain individuals—one an ironmonger and
another a country practitioner in surgery, who had been
appointed Justices of the Peace in counties in Scotland,
and who had been guilty of acts which he thought dis-
qualified them from sitting on the Bench, and he wished
to know whether the Noble and Learned Lord had
made inquiries into the facts ?
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he had
made inquiries into the subject. He had had
very considerable difficulty in ascertaining the
facts, hut at last he believed he had ascertained
them. The result did not correspond with the impres-
sion which seemed to hare been made on the Noble
Earl's mind. It was a long story, and he was not pre-
pared to go into the full statement of the circumstances,
if that was what the Noble Earl wished for.
Lord HADDINGTON said, he had no wish
that the Noble and Learned Lard should go
into a long statement on the subject ; he only wished
to know whether the Noble and Learned Lord
had; not found that those two individuals had made
a voter drunk at the election for the county of Ross,
and in that state removed him, so that he was not
allowed to vote.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the fact was
that the three persons were together, and they were
all drunk together.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
When the voter got sober he found himself where he did
not wish to remain, and immediately was allowed to go
back. All three then resolved to return, but on their
way they thought they should like to visit Cawdor
Castle. To do so they again went out of their way,
where they met with some other friend or friends,
and having got a little social again, before
they could find their way back they were too late
for the election. However, there was nothing criminal
brought home to the two parties. The intention to
remove the voter did not seem to have been at
ail pro-concerted ; the resolution was formed while
they were all three drinking, and was abandoned
immediately after they got sober.
The Earl of HADDINGTON said there could be
no doubt of the facts, that these persons did endeavour
improperly—though unsuccessfully, to prevent the voter
from exercising his franchise—and he could not help
thinking that the Lord Chancellor should not have ap-
pointed them to the commission of the peace.
'ffie LORD CHANCELLOR said he had never
till now heard any objection to these persons, and
really the many and onerous duties of his office pre-
cluded him from looking into the particular details of
such cases.
On the motion of Viscount DUNCANNON the
Waterford Fever Hospital Bill was read a second time.
In answer to a question from the Bishop of
EXETER,
The Marquis of NORMANBY said a Bill had
been received at the Colonial Office' which had been
passed by the Colonial Legislature, for re-investing the
clergy reserves in the Crown, but there was an
informality as to its not having been accompanied by an
address, which threw a doubt upon the propriety of
sanctioning the Bill. The matter was now under con-
' sideration.
Earl DURHAM presented a petition from the De-
puties
of the Protestant Dissenting Congregations re,
sident in and near London, praying for the abolition of
Church-rates, and of the Ecclesiastical Courts.
The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from
the dioceses of Oxford, Worcester, Peterborough, and
Ely against the Church Discipline Bill.
On the motion of Lord DENMAN the Borough
Courts Bill was read a second time. His Lord sip
then corrected a mis-statement in the press, that he
had attributed to the House of Commons the absurdity
of the former Bill ; he had never said anything
Ike that, nor would he ever have said anything
so disrespectful of the House of Commons, particularly
at the present time.

BEER BILL.
Viscount MELBOURNE presented a petition from
Sunderland against the new Beer Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM said he did not deny that some
of the beer-house keepers might have capital in the
business ; and such would doubtless be licensed by the
Magistrates. He would now simply move the third
reading of the Bill, proposing that the debate should
be taken on the amendments of his Noble Friend
opposite. That was the usual course, and it might be
opposed on the question that the Bill do pass.
Lord WROTTESLEY complained that the Noble
and Learned Lord was passing the Bill without any
debate upon it ; surely he ought to state his reasons for
moving the third reading.
Lord BROUGHAM said, upon the second readiug
of the Bill they had had a long debate, and it was the
usual course to give no reasons on the third reading.
Lord WROTTESLEY had wished to have made a
few observations on the second reading of the Bil!, but
was prevented by its being sent to a Select Committee.
That was a Bill of very great importance, it being
neither more nor less than whether beer may be sold on
the premises in any but licensed houses. The licensed
victuallers viewed such a power with considerable jea-
lousy, and laid many informations against them, but
that power was granted after a long and patient inquiry
before a Committee of the House of Commons, who
recommended it by a considerable majority. The Noble
and Learned Lord charged much of the crime of the
country upon the beer-houses, but so far as his expe-
rience went, and he spoke of his own neighbourhood,
the keepers of be,r-shops were more respectable than
the licensed victuallers. If their Lordships agreed to
that Bill they would create a great increase in the
pernicious custom of gin-drinking.—(Hear, hear.)
If their Lordships really meant to prevent abuses,
they ought to take the means of appointing a proper
police force. It would be far better that they should
encrease the metropolitan police force than appoint a
rural police. Detachments of the metropolitan police
might be sent by railroads within a very short time to
disturbed districts, and then brought back to town
again when their absence was no longer called for. The
staff of the militia was also at this moment absolutely
useless. It was merely a burthen on the country. It
might be made very efficient, and by dividing it into
batallions it might be of great use to the police. But
while the country was left in the state in which it was,
and especially the metropolis—very little improved, in-
deed, he believed, since the days of Alfred, who any
old man might be a constable, and he believed that a
woman had been one—what could they expect but
abuses ? It was admitted that under this Bill there
were 45,000 beer-shops in the country, and it was not
the fact that many of them had only a chair and a
table in their houses. A great many of the persons
occupying them had built the houses in which they
sold beer; many of them had leases of the premises,
and most of them had embarked a great deal of money
in their concerns. Most of them bad been faithful
servants, who had saved a little money, and this was
the only way they had of employing their little capital,
with a prospect of being able to support themselves
and their families, When they embarked their
property in their concerns they had a right to
expect that the Legislature would protect them
is what they had invested. It was to be remem-
bered, also, that the time of these persons was
their property ; and upon the whole, lie hoped their
Lordships would pause before they adopted this Bill,
the adoption of which would be an act of the grossest
injustice.
The Marquis of SALISBURY rose, and spoke in
a tone of voice so low as to be but very indistinctly
heard in the gallery in much that he said. As regarded
the reference made by the Noble Lord who had just
sat down to the staff of the militia, he (the Noble Mar-
quis) must observe, that the militia had always been, as
he had ever understood, a very effective force ; and
although he had been for many years a colonel of the
militia, yet be had never before had any idea that there-
fore he was to be appointed a police officer. There could
be no doubt that the passing of the Beer Bill had been
Y ; and he remembered
very injurious to the communit

being in a small minority in opposition to the passing of
it. No doubt persons who had embarked property in
those houses were entitled to the consideration of
their Lordships ; but if the Noble Lord opposite
was to call out the whole of the militia, he would not
be able to prevent abuses being carried on in those
Houses. Some other mode must be adopted than this
for the purpose of giving a good and wholesome beve-
rage to the people. He was sure his Noble and
Learned Friend opposite could not anticipate that this
Bill, in its present shape, could have a chance of pass-
ing the House of Commons ; but he (the Noble Mar-
quis) was sincerely desirous that some measure should
be immediately passed on the subject. He had pre-
pared some amendments which he hoped would be ac
ceptable to his Noble Friend and to the House. The
effect of his first amendment would be to introduce a
clause declaring that no new house should be opened
for the sale of beer, except under the authority of the
magistrates. In the next place, that the certificates
should ba raised from persons rated at 61. to persons rated
at 10/. Again, that the sureties required by the 11th of
Geo. 4. and the Ist of Will. 4, should be persons resident
in the parish where the beer-shops were. And further,
that the Justices should be empowered to grant licenses
for the sale of beer and cider only ; that was to say,
that they should have a discretion to grant that license
apart from the sale of spirits. By these provisions the
respectability of those who kept the beer-houses would
be increased, and in that way the evil of them might be
diminished. Unless these amendments were accepted,
whether this Bill was rejected or was passed, the state
of things would go on pretty much the same as had been
for another year.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER wished to know
what course the Noble and Learned Lord meant to
pursue.
Lord BROUGHAM said his plan was to persevere,
as lie had hitherto done, in hearing all that could be said
both for and against the measure. The Noble Marquis
opposite had failed to convince him of the propriety of
his proposed amendments, and if he were not convinced
by what he might hear, that he was wrong in his mea-
sure, he should certainly continue to press it.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER wished to know
if the Noble and Learned Lord would agree to post-
pone the further consideration of the Bill for ten days
or a fortnight.
Lord BROUGHAM could see no occasion or rea.
son for that whatever.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER was so the.
roughly convinced that this was a most harsh, cruel,
and unjust measure towards a class of persons well de-
serving their Lordships' attention, that he should cer-
tainly oppose its further progress. A very great altera-
tion had been made in the Bill in the Committee. By
the Bill as it was now proposed, beer was not only not
allowed to be sold and consumed on the premises, but it
could not be sold by retail at all. The Noble and Learned
Lord was quite aware that there was not a chance of
the Bill in its original shape passing the House of
Commons, but probably he thought that denuded as
it had been in Committee, it might have the ghost of
a chance. This alone showed that it would be much
better to leave a measure of this nature to the House of
Commons to originate. A great mistake had been
committed by their Lordships entertaining a financial
measure at all. But he would say that the places that
did most injury to the morals of the community of this
country were the gin palaces, and he would say, put
down in the first place the gin palaces, after them put
down the public-houses, and next again put an end
to the beer-shops.—(Cheers and " Hear, hear, hear.")
If Noble Lords would only pay a little attention to the
subject-..if they would only devote five or ten minutes
of an evening, of the time they spent in drinking their
wine and spirits, or claret, he was satisfied that they
would view the case of these men in a very different
light.—( Hear, hear.) It was said that the brewers
were hostile to the beer-houses, and he (the Marquis
of Westminster) regretted that such was the case, for
he believed they had benefited most materially since
the present Act had passed. The consumption of
malt and hops had increased very considerably, and
that was owing in a great measure to the num-
ber of
,beer-houses, and the increased comsurnp-
tion of real commodity that had taken place,
With regard to the offences committed in these beer-
houses, he held in his hand a return of the offences
which had been presented by Grand Juries during the
three years last passed, and the number amounted to
only 28.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared from a return
which had been made of convictions under the Beer
Act, in a population of 14,000, for the first four years
the number averaged 41 per annum ; and in the year
1835 the number was 2 ; in 1836 there none, and in
1837 there were 3, making making only five convictions
in these three years. If the Noble and Learned Lord
would only withdraw the Bill, there would be an end
to the question altogether; but if he was determined to
persvere with it in the face of these facts, he hoped
their Lordships would consent to hear the evidence of
the parties affected by it at the bar of the House. He
had letters from all parts of the country, complaining
of the manner in which the Noble and Learned Lord
had treated the question.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—
They complained that their case had not been fairly
represented by the Noble and Learned Lord. Ho would
now state to their Lordships some of the grievances to
which the beer-sellers were subjected. With regard to
obtaining licences. They required the signatures of ,
six ratepayers, and their certificates were to be re-
newed every year. They were also obliged to obtain
security for their good behaviour, and for the penalties
they were likely to incur. It appeared that the total
number of beer-sellers licensed in 1837 was 133,142.
Their hours were also very much limited—they were
were compelled to closeat 10 o'clock, or as much earlier
as the Magistrates thought proper to appoint. The
penalties for the most trivial offences were 405., and in
many cases as high as five pounds ; it was declared
that a single conviction rendered them liable to forfeit
their licenses. Taking all these circumstances into
consideration, he felt it his duty to oppose the present
Bill.

Lord DA CRE contended that they were bouud by
eir former legislation on the subject, considering the
vast interests involved in the question. The Noble
Marquis who had just sat down had expressed a wish
that the present Act should continue in force, but he
believed the Noble Marquis was not aware
of the vice and drunkenness of which these
houses had been productive when he made that
statement. Although Ire differed in many points from
the Noble Marquis, he could not say that he wished
for the total, and absolute, and unconditional repeal of
the Act. There was a vast amount of capital involved
in that trade ; its object bad been to create a competi-
tion in the manufacture of that article, and it had been
productive of that beneficial effect. It was, he believed,
admitted that the great brewers used merely malt and
hops in the manufacture ; there was not a scintilla of
evidence that any adulteration took place in its manu-
facture, but the moment it reached the hands of the
victuallers then the adulteration, the evil, and the mis-
chief was practised to an enormous extent. The brewers
had no remedy—they could not find any other market
for the commodity, and were completely at the mercy
of the victuallers. What was the remedy ?—a free
trade in beer ; and that was the Act they now proposed
to repeal. It was admitted that the beer-shops
had occasioned a reduction in price, and an
improvement in the quality of the article. No
one could deny that these were great and
important advantages; the disadvantages were the great
facility of obtaining these licenses, by which beer-shops
bad been increased to a great extent. If the number li-
censed for each district were limited the evil would be
considerably diminished. It appeared to him that the
magistrates were not the proper parties to ascertain the
number of shops that ought to be licensed—it was the
people themselves who ought to determine that point.
lie would therefore suggest that there should be only a
given number of beer-houses to each district of a given
population. Say one beer-shop to every 500 inhabit-
ants, and that proportion might be extended or con-
tracted as the House would deem advisable. That he
thought preferable to leaving matters in their present
state. He would also suggest that the ratepayers wha
would recommend a party for a license should possess a
higher qualification, to ensure their having a more re-
spectable class of persons in the trade. The brewers
would easily find these sureties if the parties were re-
spectable. These suggestions he thought would tend,
if carried into effect, to correct the evils complained of,
while it would supply to the lower classes a very great
desideratum. It appeared to him also that the beer-
shops and public-houses should be placed upon the same
footing. He hoped the suggestions he had thrown out
would meet the approval of their Lordships.—(Hear.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH had been informed that
strictly this Bill was not inconsistent with the privileges
of the House of Commons, but he had no doubt it
would be represented to be, and treated as such, and
therefore he thought it would be immediately rejected.
The very circumstance of its originating in their Lord-
ships' House would cause it to be received unfavourably
in the other House. He thought this Bill, however,
went a little too far in proposing to put an end to beer-
houses so soon, but was afraid the amendments
of his Noble Friend near him would constitute
a new Bill. If their Lordships were not disposed to
adopt the simple measure of the Noble and Learned
Lord, it would be better to re-commit the Bill in order
to consider the amendment proposed by the Noble Mar-
quis. He did not think that sufficient efficacy could
be given to the police to eradicate the evil, and regretted
that the Noble Viscount opposite (Melbourne) had not
as yet stated distinctly and specifically the views of the
Government on this measure. It was a measure
which a Government having a regard for the morals
of the people would think it right to express an opinion
upon.
Lord MELBOURNE admitted the great import-
ance of the subject, and could not help feeling the great
pressure of the general opinion that prevailed of re-
spectable bodies, and of persons, who had the best
means of obtaining information. He was therefore
compelled and forced to admit the evils of the present
system, and the great failure of the Beer Act. He
admitted it, because he was compelled to admit it, but
he could not in his own mind believe that it had ope-

rated to the extent of changing the whole morals, feel-
ings, and disposition of the country, and had altered, as
it were, the nature of man.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
that people's enthusiasm had carried them a little away
on this subject, and he could not believe there was such
very great difference between the beer-houses and the
lower class of public houses. He did not think there
could be such a difference between them as that the
one should be conducted with perfect quietude, and the
other with turbulence, riot, and disorder, because one
was licensed by a magistrate and the other by the Ex-
cise.—(Hear, hear.) It was, no doubt, a subject that
required regulation ; and whatever regulations might be
applied, they must recollect there would be still in those
houses a little irregularity. It was said that thieves
met in beer houses : well, thievcs met in public
houses.—(Laughter.) Where were they to meet ?
They must meet somewhere.—(Renewed laughter.)
They could only meet in places that were open, and
the most safe places they could meet in, were those
places to which they went. Do what they would,
make what regulations they would, the proprietors of
these shops would always be open to charges and sus-
picions. But if they were to pass the present Bill, as it
had been brought into the House, by the Noble and
Learned Lord, they would be doing a very unwise and
nugatory act. In the first place, the Noble and Learned
Lord had introduced it in a very doubtful and
faultering manner—(Laughter)—and with a great
deal of hesitation.—(No, no, from Lord Brougham.)
The Noble and Learned Lord had said they could
send it down to the House of Commons, although they
did not insist on it as it stood. He (Lord Melbourne)
thought there was considerable objection to the mea-
sure, inasmuch as it proposed to deal in a very abrupt
and hasty manner with considerable provrty. They
had dealt very summarily and abruptly with property
when the original Beer Bill passed, because they had
deteriorated the value of public-houses, for which enor-
mous sums of money had been given ; and now they
were, with a certain degree° of haste and ra-
pidity, to deal with property which they had
nursed and raised up in the same summary manner.
There certainly was some excuse for introducing the
Beer Act, because, although they had established
Beer Houses, yet by taking the duty off beer they had
given the publican a great advantage ; but now it was
proposed to demolish houses they had fostered, without
giving to the occupier any equivalent. The property
they were to deal with was very considerable. He un-
derstood from the rooms that the number of beer-
sellers were 45,000, and the number of licensed victu-
allers were about 55,000. The amount of revenue received
from the licenses of the beer-sellers, was 133,0001. for the
year 1837, and there was a growing and increasing
revenue. No doubt his Noble and Learned Friend
would say—" so much the worse—it is a revenue
founded on the immorality and corruption of the
people."—The amount paid for the licenses of licensed
victuallers, was 91,0001. The consumption of malt on
which duty was paid had increased under the present
system. But, perhaps, that increase was not to be
ascribed to the beer-houses, but to the taking off the
duty on beer, and to the general increase in the popu-
lation. The licensed victuallers who occupied houses
rated under 20/. were 18,378, the beer-sellers rated
under 20/. were 15,515. The beer-sellers who brewed
their own beer in 1837 were 16,800, and if they were to
judge by the penalties for the adulteration of beer,
there were fewer convictions of keepers of beer-shops
for the adulteration of beer than there had been of
licensed victuallers. On the whole, he must say, although
it might be very wise and prudent, that he thought it
was a very harsh and hasty measure.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed the Bill, if sent down, would not pass the
House of Commons—there was no man who was a
reformer of beer in the other House that was in favour
of it. He thought some uniformity of legislation
on this subject ought to be adopted. Whatever
penalties they might impose—whatever rules they might
establish, unless they gave the means of carrying these
rules into effect legislation would be totally useless,
idle, and superfluous. It was in vain to complain of
laws—it was in vain to complain of Magistrates—or
of the inefficacy of laws, if there were not the means
of executing them ; and their Lordships might depend
upon it that until something was done to give the Ma-
gistrates more powerful hands, and greater means of
carrying into effect the laws of the country, all the
laws they could enact would be of very little service.
A few firm and resolute men in a county could do a
great deal towards carrying the law into execution,
and it would not require so much expense as was
supposed to place the constabulary force on the
ancient principles on which it was established.
A great deal of prejudice prevailed on this subject.
He thought the liberty of the subject was best secured
by a decisive, firm, and vigorous administration of the
law, and he did in his conscience think that was one
of the great objects to which the attention of Parlia-
ment and the public ought to be directed ; but on the
whole it did not appear to him it would be a wise and
prudent course, even for the objects in view, to pass this
Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM had never heard a speech on-
any one subject from any one person, in any one place,
which betrayed such an entire ignorance of 'every part
of the subject to which it was addressed as
that just delivered.—(Laughter.) He said that
with all respect.—(Laughter.) Did any body
ever hear anything like the notion of his Noble Friend,
that there was no difference between the conduct of a
house licensed by the Excise and a house licensed by
a Magistrate ? There was all the difference in the
world. His Noble—and lie could not say Learned—
his Noble and Unlearned Friend—(Laughter)—his
Noble and Ignorant Friend—(Great laughter)—seemed
to be taken in with the word licensed. The difference
between a house licensed by the Excise and a house
licensed by the Justices was, that the one was well-con-
ducted and the other ill-conducted. This Bill only
went to reduce the law to its termer state.
" My Lords (proceeded the Noble and Learned Lord)
I am sorry to observe the indifference with which the
subject has been treated on the present occasion. I
never disguise my opinion of your Lordships' conduct—
your Lordships no doubt love the good order of the
country, you have a great regard for the the morals of the
people—but there is something you love still better.—
(Laughter.) This is a very critical hour with your
Lordships—(between seven and eight)—you would wil-
lingly make every effort for the repression of vice in
the land—but there is another thing you prize far higher,
there is something else for which the nobler part of your
Lordships' constitution—(Laughter)—feels a much
dearer sympathy.—(Renewed laughter.) And, my
Lords—(Turning to the Right Reverend Bench, where
e
sat in solitary distinction two Prelates)-_I regret to see
ao u
toth tine l
(Cthat my appliesoabyserv:lteimbonersof your ael ol
Lordships'e_ t:iy
h House—
ontinued
cbs eeto the spirilteals
equally
(Continued laughter)—the Right Rev. Prelates, the
guardians of the morals of the p
en
unceasing in their denunciations of the present Beer-
law—their language has ever been, " For God's sake,
Noblet Y
and Learned Lord's
words be taken down.—(Hear, hear.) ML Lords,
do away with the beer-houses, they render our preach-
their
roised,
preach-
ing and teaching vain." I have come forward at their
instigation—l have placed myself as an instrument in
the hands of these public guardianwshoich i the f country's
morals, and there are out of the whole twenty-six Pre-
lates, just two who will sacrifice their dinners, who will
upon this occasion.—(Order, order.)
S BUI
sacrifice their regard for their belly,
t o The
orderM; a Ircim" Marquis
move
fS
thatA the
Lord BROUGHAM—In order to which, I will
repeat them.—(A laugh,) The Noble and Learned
Lord was proceeding to repeat word for word, the whole
sentence, amidst a great deal of smothered laughter
when— ,
Lord KENYON rose to order, and said the words
which had been objected to were not those which the
Noble and Learned Lord was now repeating.
Lord BROUGHAM.—Aye : but I must repeat
the whole context.—( Laughter.)
The Marquis of SALISBURY appealed to the
candour and right feeling of the Noble and Learned
Lord to withdraw the objectionable words.—(Hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM very sarcastically—Well, well,
my Lords, to oblige my Noble Friend, I will say this,
that the bench of Bishops, at whose instigation I
brought this subject forward, have—out of their
earnest regard for the morals of the com-
munity—(A laugh)—have sacrificed all personal
considerations (Laughter) —and have attended—
during this discussion—by two of their body—l can't
go further.—(Renewed laughter.) And I, having the
the greatest veneration for the Bishops—(Laughter)—a
respect for them—in which I don't yield to my Noble
Friend opposite—(Laughter—and " I don't know that"
from the Marquis of Salisbury)— I felt peculiar pain
in not seeing more than two out of the twenty-six pre-
sent on this occasion.---(Renewed laughter.) But my
Noble Friend is content with two only—(Continued
laughter)—l on the contrary would fain see the whole
twenty-six here, for if they were here, they would all
vote for the Bill.—(Laughter.) My Lords, I have
heard nothing to induce me to depart from my present
course. It has been said it would be better that th,e,
measure should originate with the House of Commons."
I quite agree to that ; and hence it was that on a for-
mer occasion I postponed the Bill that the other house
might have time to consider such a measure. I waited
for months—the other House originated no measure on
the subject—were we to remain with our hands tied, and
do nothing?—(Hear, hear.) If the House of Com-
mons neglected their duty, are we to neglect ours ?
--(Hear, hear.) It has been said again that the other
House is not favourable to this measure. My Lords, I
do not believe such to be the case. I know the
country gentlemen are against the present system—as
well as the lawyers and Judges—and how the majority
of a House pretending, purporting, to represent the
Commons of England, should do otherwise than speak
the sense of the country, lamat a loss to imagine. Ido
not believe the. House of Commons would reject this
measure. But it is for your Lordships' consideration,
whether you ought not to discharge your own duty.—
( Hear, hear.) I have no objection to an intermediate
kind of
_beer-house—between the publican's house
and the present beer-houses ; and have framed a
clause allowing the magistrates to license houses for the

sale of beer, though not for the sale of spirits, thus
uniting the comfort of the poor, with magisterial con-
troul.—( Hear, hear.) Capital is said to be invested in
the Beer trade. Will not that be attended to by the
magistracy ? To hear Noble Lords talk, one would
suppose the Bill would prevent the magistracy from
licensing, whereas, under this Bill, the magistrates
may, if they please, license every one of the 45,000
Beer-houses to-morrow.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill
is not to put down the Beer-houses, but to put
them under the inpection of the magistrates. My
Noble Friend (the Marquis of Westminster, who sat
close to Lord Brougham) says, they might as well be
put under the control of the bottomless pit—(A laugh)
at least my Noble Friend looks that, though he did not
say it—(Laughter)—my Noble Friend has not so much
respect for the magistrates as I have.—(Laughter.)
My Lords, I am determined to do my own duty on the
present occasion. I have brought this subject for-
ward, prompted by a regard for the people, and a desire
to see their morals and habits improved :—I have
moved the third reading of the Bill : I now wash my
hands of it. If it be thrown ouf-, by the non-attendance
of those who pushed me forward to introduce it, I
may regret having taken the trouble to introduce
it, but I shall not be sorry for having done my
duly : the evil will no longer lie at my door : I
have felt the necessity of bringing the subject forward.
It has been said that only twelve presentments
have been made against the present system. But
let it be recollected that these are from twelve different
counties ; no inconsiderable number ; and let it also be
remarked that Grand Juries seldom present against
a legislative enactment. My Lords, I now leave this
Bill in your Lordships' hands. It is opposed by the
Government. I hope they have at least made it an
" open question."— (Laughter.) Perhaps, as it only
regards the morals of the people, they have not.—
(Renewed laughter.) I shall certainly not bring ridi-
cule upon my proposal by making it what is called an
annual motion." I entertain, however, the most san-
guine hope that the Bill will not be rejected by your
Lordships—of this lam quite sure, that if I fail now,
I shall never hereafter succeed.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he had
voted on several occasions for the amendment of the
Beer-laws. The friends of that system, however, had
hitherto been able to resist every proposition for the
amendment of the existing system. The present pro-
fosition was for its total abolition. Now capital was
said to be involved in the beer trade, and our object
must be not to injure that capital. This object had, in
the Bill, as originally framed, been attained by allowing
the sale of beer on the premises. To enable the magis-
trates to increase beer-houses, was worthy of considera-
tion. And perhaps the best course would be to read
the Bill a third time and then consider the amendments.
(Year, hear.)
The Bishop of CHICHESTER rose and made some
reference to the remarks made by Lord Brougham, and
which caused the " scene " above described—when
The Marquis of SALISBURY spoke to order.
The Noble and Learned Lord had already withdrawn
the objectionable words.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM—(with much vehemence)—
But if the Right Rev. Prelate wishes, I am ready to
re-enter into the debate.—(Order, order.)
The Bishop of CHICHESTER would only say
from his own knowledge, that the Right Rev. Prelates
whose absence had been impugned, had been employed
for five or six hours to-day, principally on the Church
Building Bill, and also in consideration of what ought
to be done on the Church Discipline Bill—that they
had not dined at seven o'clock, and that not one of
them had been unemployed since nine that morning.
Lord BROUGHAM begged that any standing
order in the way of hearing the Right Rev. Prelate,
might be waived.—(Cries of " No, no.") He would
not stand in the way of any castigation from the Right
Rev. Prelate, but he would say, that if the Right Rev.
Prelates had been engaged in Committees all day, so
had the laity of their Lordships' House. For his own
part, he had been engaged as well as them all the day,
and if they had not dined at seven o'clock, neither had
he dined at eight ; and as to any diserderly observations
be had made, he could only say that none that he had
made could be compared with the disorder that had
proceeded from the Rev. Prelate.
Lord PORTMAN hoped the House would at once
go to a vote upon the question, whether his Noble and
Learned Friend's Bill should be read a third time. He
objected to the Bill being re-committed. The Bill
which would go into a Committee on this subject very
shortly, in the other House of Parliament, would be
be perfectly useless in the way of remedying any of the
evils now complained of, and the passing of this Bill
would show that their Lordships were determined that
some strong step should be taken. At the same time
lie had great doubt whether this Bill should have been
introduced originally in their Lordships' House, as be
had heard from considerable authority that there would
be a question whether it could even be read a first time
in the other House.

Lord DELAWARR had agreed with the Noble
and Learned Lord in this measure in Committee, and
he regretted to have to oppose the amendments pro-
posed by the Noble Marquis ; but he felt bound to do
so, as he was of opinion that those amendments would
only tend to perpetuate the mischief.
The House divided on the question that the word
" now"—[in efro:.,t that the Bill be now read a third
time]—do stand part of the Bill.
Upon our re-admission into the gallery, we found
there were—

Contents.....
Non Contents .. l9
After a short conversation, on the motion that the
Bill do pass, the question was postponed till Monday
next, and the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNK 17.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'Clock.
The Sheriffs of London presented a petition from
the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of
London against the Metropolitan Police Court's Bill.
Mr. BARNARD brought up the Report of the
Committee on the Deptford Pier Bill ; also the Report
of the Committee on the Deptford Pier Junction Rail-
way Bill.

On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, Ivanoff's Na-
,uralization Bill was advanced a stage.
Lord JAMES STUART presented petitions from
Ayr against the Ballot.
Mr. B A INES presented a petition from Leeds, signe
by 11,300 persons, in favour of the Vote by Ballot ;
also a petition from the Dissenters of King's Lynn, Nor-
folk, which was not strictly in favour of the Govern-
ment plan of education, but yet was not against it. It
deprecated the arrogant and unconstitutional demand
of the clergy of the Established Church to control the
eduzation of the people.
Petitions against the Government plan of education
were presented by Mr. Ilalford, from Leicester ; by
Mr. Blackburne, from Warrington ; by Lord Arthur
Lennox, from Boston, in Sussex ; by Mr. Grant, from
Inverness ; by Sir E. Filmer, from Kent ; by Sir R.
Inglis, from Somersetshire ; and by Mr. Fort, from
Northampton.
Mr. F. BERKELEY presented a petition from a
place in Somerset, in favour of the Government plan
of education.
Petitions in favour of a uniform rate of postage were
presented by Mr. Hodges, from Bromley in Kent ; and
by Mr. Jones, from Caernarvon.
Mr. HODGES presented a petition from Bromley
in Kent, complaining of certain provisions of the Poor•
law Amendment Bill ; by Mr. Sandford, from Somer-
set, and Sir E. Filmer, from Kent, to the same effect.
Mt. COLQUHO UN presented two petitions in
favour of Church extension in Scotland.
Sir R. INGLIS presented petitions from Somerset-
shire and Dorsetshire, in favour of Colonial Church
extension.
Mr. SANFORD presented a petition from Yeo-
vil, in favour of the Ballot.
Sir J. Y. BULLER and Mr. PLUMTRE pre-
sented several petitions against the Government plan of
education.
Mr LYNCH presented a petition from the grocers
of Galway praying that they might be allowed to vend
spirits on and off their premises.
Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from the
Synod of the Secession Church in Scotland complaining
of the Government plan for printing Bibles in Scotland.
Major MACNAMARA presented a petition from
Clare in favour of Mr. R Hill's plan of penny postage•
Mr. ATTWOOD presented three petitions to the
same effect from Birmingham. The Hon. Member also
presented a petition from Akenry, in Ireland, against the
Corn-laws. Alse one from a party that was daily rising in
numbers—it was from the Socialists of Birmingham in
the Universal Community Society of National Reli-
gionists, they thought they could mend the founda-
tions of society, and prayed to be allowed to do so.—
(Laughter.) He could not see his way to do so, but
he thought it his duty to present the petition. Also one
from persons calling themselves Delegates from the work-
ing classes, complaining of the power which the Crown
had of dismissing magistrates and praying that they
should be as they formerly were elected by the people, but
they partictiLarly complained of the dismissal of Mr.
John Frost, and prayed that he might be reinstated.
Also one from John Hinde, complaining of his having
been deprived of a pension of 91., which he enjoyed for
military service because he attended a public meeting.
Mr. HAWES presented a petition from Norwich
praying for an extension of the powers of Local Courts.
Mr. LYTTON presented petitions against any fur-
ther great to the College of Maynooth, from Kilkenny
and Coleraine.
Mr. LEADER presented a petition from Bridge-
water, praying that the Established Church might not
have the controul of any money granted by Parliament
for the purposes of education. Also a petition
from the Westminster Reform Association in favour
of the Ballot. And a petition from an indivi-
dual of the name of Thomas, complaining of the
erroneous conviction of his brother, instead of another
person, and of his having been sent to hard labour,