The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

liament, he would entreat their Lordships to bear in mint ,
they themselves were to blame in commencing a syst,
that if the House of Commons were to follow up that system.
it was barely possible that they might find this imitation of
their conduct somewhat less convenient than to have calmly
and wisely abstained from setting so very doubtful an example
—( Loud cheers.)
say a few words to set himself and the Noble Lords With
The Earl of ADDINGTON begged to he allovvcd
.t.o
whom he acted right in the sight of the House as to he,
reasons for the course which they were about to pursue
The Noble and Learned Baron had concluded his speech wi
a menace, warning their Lordships in a most marked mann:.
how they set up a precedent which they might afterwards find
it convenient to hese avoided. The Noble and Learned Lord
also stated that the House of Commons had never dealt in me_
nace. Did the Noble and Learned Lord not recollect an 0e.,„
casion when there was a threat of stopping the supplies h, les
out—(Hear)—and with whom did this threat originate Uouns.
from one of the first Ministers of the Crown ?—(Oppostiti
cheers. ) The Noble and Learned Lord spoke as
imagined that their Lordships had entered upon this st.
er
bate in a spirit of the greatest liostl'ity against the otn
House. So far from this being the fact, the motion vcs,
!Ist
in itself a very element to induce them to act in a concts
tory manner. —( Hear, hear.) It would be recollected
th.o
amongst the reasons given by their Lordships for dissen !as•g,
from certain provisions in this Bill at the conference
r 1)
year, this House expressed an earnest hope: that the per_ica.
was not far distant when the two Houses, ening on a le
understanding, might be able to give a systcm of leca,`,49,
vernment to Iceland. That sentiment he,
still entertained. The Noble and Learned Lord had advanced
still a
a position which he certainly was astonished to hear
that this
man of his known acuteness and observation, namely, • e, Bill
measure had no more connection with the Irish Tita a
bee
than with any railway or canal, or other private Bill that ion
ever come before their Lordships' House. Did this quo',
bear upon the Irish Church question ? All lie could oey ve's
that all the friends of the Irish Church conceived it did
( Opposition cheers.) He asked again, did this question beag
upon the Irish Church question? All he could say was, that:
amook-st °weed
all the enemies of the Irish Church declared it did.---(Re"
newed cheering from the Opposition.) Was it not said bf,
many persons connected with Ireland, and who now associateci•
themselves with the party called " Voluntaries'.' in this coupe'
try, that the only mode of giving happiness and doing justice'
to the people of Ireland was to abolish tithes in tote, and te
enact that no person should pay one farthing towards the gt
tablished Church who was not a member of that Church? Hal
they not said, too, in connection with their ulterior views and
objects in reference to the Established Church, " Give us this
measure of Municipal Reform, and then we shall see whether
..
we cannot at once:achieve our ends and objects ?"—( Hear.) lt
was obvious that the opinions of these persons were differtte*
from that of the Noble Marquis the Lord President of
Council, who said, " I cannot conceive how these Corpora? .
tions, according to the principle contained in this Bill, eall
ever be the means of putting a weapon in the hands or the
agitators and disturbers of the peace in Ireland." The lap'
s
guage used by these agitators and disturbers themselves showed
that they at least took a very different view of the matter-e'
( Hear)—and who could fail to see that their view was correct'
when the qualification proposed in the Bill was considered, sett
the vast influence it would give to persons of the Roman CV
tholic persuasion remembered ?—( Hear.) He maintainedi
then, that this Bill had a most direct bearing upon the security
of the Established Church, and that it would operate most
dangerously as long as the Church question remained ue'
settled.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was impossible for;
them to deal with the question of Municipal Referral untl'
they knew what were to be the provisions of the Bill that
related to the Church.—(Hear, hear.) When the Church
question came before them they should be prepared so tee CO'n
Sider it, and if necessary so to amend it, as to render it es;
to apply the principle contained in the present Bill to the 100
government of the cities and towns in Ireland; but if, unfirt"
tunately, they should find it impracticable to come to en'
'
agreement on the Church Bill, unquestionably they would not
depart from the ground they had already taken on the measure
of Municipal Reform. This was what he was chiefly anxious'
to state, because the Noble Lord (Lord Brougham) had en-
deavoured by his specious statements and subtle arguments ee
to dazzle their Lordships' eyes and understandings as to pre"
vent their comprehending what they were about.
The Earl of RODEN objected to the Bill in its presel4
shape, because it struck at the very root of ProtestantisiO%
because it would establish Roman Catholic corporationg je
the place of Protestant corporations. Noble Lords opposieo
had challenged them on that side of the House to prove
what way the present question was connected with the
question of the Church in Ireland. Was it nothing to creel
in so many different parts of Ireland—in every corporate
town—a normal school of agitation,• in which the apsest
means might be discussed for bringing about the destruction
of the Protestant Established Church—that Church which
had been declared by the Roman Catholics of Ireland to
a nuisance to the country ?—( Hear, hear.) Whilst sue
opinions and such sentiments were openly avowed, he for one
would not consent to' enter upon such a measure as this till h
saw it could be done with security to the Establishment ie
Ireland. He denied the justice of the vituperations which the
Noble Viscount ( Melbourne) had heaped upon the existill
Corporations of Ireland ; and he challenged the Noble en
°
Learned Lord (Brougham) to bring forward the proofs UP°
which he ventured to call these Corporations " nests of abut
and sinks of corruption."—( Hear, hear.) He felt satisfie,
that the course they had pursued during the last two years hetl
raised the elm-act-et- of the House in the estimation of ther
country.--(A laugh.) The fact was proved by the change?
opinion which had every where taken place, and especially it
the country which he so much loved and respected—thoue
he wassnot born in it—Scotland. He sincerely concurred
the motion of the Noble Duke to postpone this question apt,
the 9th of June.
Lord BROUP HAM founded his condemnation of th°
existing Corporations of Ireland upon the authority of the
Commissioners appointed to inquire into them, and also uPed
the opinion of a high legal and political authority connect%
with that House, but not with that side of it from which hrs
(Lord Brougham) spoke. The Report of the Comrnission.r
said that the Corporations had used their privileges-a-thehle
corporate functions—without scruple, not as trustees for t_s
ben fit. of the community, but for the purpose of obtaining
exclusive dominion over the inhabitants, and a political ';;
fluence for themselves in the elections for Members to serve ik
Parliament. That was the Report of the Commissionerb
When lie found the Corporations of Ireland spoken of in Of
terms by such authorities, he left it to their Lordships to dm
e'
termiue whether he was not fully justified in the epithets '-
had applied to them ?
The Earl of FALMOUTH never would admit that Is
Reports of Commissioners, the legality of whose appoint feed
was exceedingly questionable, formed a constitutional mode
trial and conviction of any parties whatever in that countrY'ho
The Duke of RICHMOND sincerely believed that led
Noble Friend the Noble Duke (Wellington) was only actea;ss
by a sowere desire to conciliate, when he proposed to delay
committal of this Bill to the 9th of June.—( Hear.) He. bed
knew the Noble Duke's character; and he felt quite settstso
that tl:e Noble Duke believed that by adopting this course ;0,
House would be best enabled to bring the question to a 58,0
factory termination. What lie wouldsuggest, therefore, isy,
this : that they should go into the Committee without de
alter the Bill in such a manner as they deemed most pr land
and thus enable the Commons at once to see and undersilfabs
the extent to which they were prepared to go.--( Hear.) .011
wanted to enter into a compromise with any man, he hoer' &Si
said, without hesitation or concealment, "so far will I ge'ht it
no further: will you accept my proposition?" He thou roe
would be well for their Lordships to pursue the same cote'
There was one part of the subject which appeared to hire,, bed
particularly worthy of their Lordships' attention. He apt'
humbly submitted in the last Session of Parliament that ';‘,011
cipal Corporations ought not to be given to every snualtu-rog,
in Ireland. To the large commercial and manufac*
assres
towns, and to towns containing a great population, he wto
pared and disposed to give Corporations ; but he objecd the
Corporations in small towns, even in England. If he hehiclb
power, he would only give Corporations to those towns ;cold
from their size and importance, required them ; but he obiell
do equal justice to Ireland. The towns in Ireland to:orno,
he had last year recommended their Lordships to give Corso,
rations were placed in a particular schedule of the 13i11,`40•
made the qualification to vote for members of the Town 7000
cils the same as the qualification to vote for Members 11. their
in Parliament—it was the 101. qualification. Now,, Cot'
Lordships were prepared to agree with him, and to givers for
porations to those large towns, it would not be neeesel;ifore
them to wait until the Irish Poor-law Bill was broughtf
them ; because the 101. qualification had already been °roster.
quired into, settled, and registered by the Revising 0100;
in Ireland. The voters were all registered—ell bo he'
their claims had been sifted to the uttermost, and t grent'
gislature would, therefore, know to whom they Were, id ott
ing the privilege of voting for the return of muniol) job;
cers. Under these circumstances, it was not neeests"Z
kisti
view of the subject, to wait for the bringing up of
ear Nord
Poor-law Bill. With respect to tithes in Ireland, tueioedl"o
ships were aware that upon that question he cntest&t, to et
strongest opinion. He never could give his seectireo a 8
appropriation clause, but even though the chant's weitiosethee
that the House of Commons would abandon ,that e•oto
would nevertheless, entreat their Lordships to go
0300
consideration of the present Bill.—( Hear.) He wwbst °boy
treat their Lordships to define to the utmost extent inpa ; go,
were prepared to do with the corporations of Ire.cipsl -sea
he would not ultimately vote in favour of the Wel tablisPot
form Bill, if he thought it would endanger dis tio did eted
church in that country. As at present informant. objeclres
know by what means it could possibly do so ; and Itis
to his Noble Friend's argument, though he knew _ floor; to
in using it were the best. He objected to tell th; buoy
this country that it was necessary not only to senet:etieg
maintain abuses in Ireland for the purpose' of pro og
Established Church in that country.—(HeaOphoec
tained that neither the English nor the Irish ,`lfiefo hoer
anything to do with the question of Municipal
~buses of
( Hear.) He maintained further, that the more "he scee cef
of the Established Cnnrch in each. Under these
destroyed in both countries, the greater would bea. tce f
posno
-ctioo °or
he would only conclude by repeating his coo/lot W4„00,
perfect sincerity of the Noble Duke (the Duke into tit° ge
ton); but in his own opinion, instead of going
ester 401
mittee on the 9th of June next, it would be _ce to dis'
into Committee on Monday next, and so at once d
the House of Commons what compromise they
...too
posed to offer.—( Hear.) Noble vital?
Lord WHARNCLIFFE differed from the oond tai
e
who had just sat down. He objected to the teo-01:it unee.lisof
fication, not only because it was one of the rnand eSPe;i
ever established, but because in many pleeceAsja that d"
in Ireland, it had led to so much perjury. t/".4,44 esur
petition had been presented from Longford, r_4ollo
alteration of the 101. franchise, and pointing

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