The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-18 00:00:00

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the Municipal Corporations (Ireland)
Bill.

Mr. GRATTAN begged to ask the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Ireland, before the question was put,
whether the Government bad received any information relative
to a disturbance that bad lately taken place in the North of
Ireland. From the letters he (Mr. Grattan) had received, it
Appeared that a number of Roman Catholics were returning
from a fair, and that they were attacked by a party of Orange-
men, as he (Mr. Grattan) believed, or Conservatives as they
called Themselves. It appeared from one letter he received that
fire were killed or wounded, and by another account about 50
killed .or wounded.

---
Lord MORPETII had received no information with which
the public vas not already acquainted. He believed a very
serious outrage, had taken place, and a verdict of wilful mur-
der was returned against the assailing party.
Colonel PERCE VAL wished, as great stress had been
laid on the word Orangemen, that the Noble Lord would state
whether the persons by whom the outrage had been committed
were Orangemen. Ile was riot aware that there was any
body of men called Orangemen at present in Ireland.—( Cries
of " Oh, oh !")
Lord NI 0 R PETH could not from any document in his Fs-
sesion answer the question of the lion. and Gallant Member.
Mr. HUME begged to :tsk the Noble Lord the Secretary
at War whether the repcils so long expected of the Committee
appointed to inquire into the civil establishment of the army
was in a state to be brought before the House.
Lord HOWICK had the satisfaction of informing the
Hon. Member that the Report was in a state of great readiness.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Monday next.
COLONIAL BANKS.

Sir R. PEEL wished to put a question to the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, whether he had any information to give
to the House relative to the establishment of chartered banks in
the East and West Indies.
Mr P. THOMSON said his Majesty had been advised to
grant a charter to a bank established in the West Indies,
ani accordingly a charter had been granted by the Crown last
summer. It did not, however, grant any peculiar privileges ;
but merely gave them tile power to bank in the same manner
as in this country. That Bank was now in operation. Ap-
plication had been made last summer for a charter for a bank
to be estabWed in the East Indies. He (Mr. P. Thomson)
had made a ccwamunication to his Right Hon. Friend at the
head of the Boa-rd of Control. That Right Hon. Geutleman
did not think it adviseable to grant the charter, without having
some communicaiico with the local Government. Enquiries
had been sent out, arid until the answers were received, the
subject would not Cyrtil.er be considered.
BEET-ROOT SUGAR. _

An Hon. AIE El begged leave to ask any of the lion.
Gentlemen on the Tree-try Bench whether the Government
would throw any obstruction in the way of making Sugar
from Peet-root in this couml.ry ? If there was any objection
to answering the question l-e ;,,-euld not press it, especially in
the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. P. THOMSON said it bad scmctime ago been re-
ported to him that extensive arrangemCits were being
made for such a purpose, and he bac; immediately
called the attention of both the Board of Excise
and Customs to the subject, in order that the public might be
informed that the Government would this Session intisoduce a
Bill, not to put a stop to the pc.roject, but to impose as beau a
duty upon the sugar so made as that commodity now paid.
A Bill for that purpose 41-23 now under the consideration of
the Board of Customs, and it would be introduced as soon ag.
possible.
ADJOURNMENT OF TETE HOUSE.

On the motion of Love[ J. RUSSELL, it was agreed that
the House at its rising do adjourn to Monday.
SEDITION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE, the House
resolved itself into Committeo? on this Bill. The Bill went
through Committee, and was ordered to be reported on Mon-
day next.

On the motion of Mr. AGLIONBY leave was given to
the Committee on public Bills: Ito sit to-morrow,

RECORDERS' COURTS BILL.
Mr. J. S. WORTLE Y moved that the House should re-
solve itself into a Committee upon the Recorders' Courts Bill.
Mr. LEADER wished to ask the Attorney-General a
question relative to the Bill before the House went into a
Committee upon it. By the Bill, the Recorder of the town
might appoint a deputy if the Council wished for one. What
he wished to know was, whether the Council was to have any
voice as to the person to be appointed Deputy Recorder, or
whether it was to rest with the Recorder himself?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that as the Bill was
framed by the Hon. and Learned Member, the Council had
no vote upon the appointment of Deputy Recorder.
Mr. O'CONNELL suggested that the appointment of the
Deputy Recorder should be with the Secretary of State.
Sir J. BECKETT thought that the Recorder should have
the responsibility of appointing a deputy, as well as that of
discharging prisoners.
Mr. D. W. HA RVE Y said this was one of those measures
not sufficieatly stirring to excite interest, and was not
discovered to have been in the House at all, until
it was law.—(Hear, hear.) It required more consideration
than it appeared to have received. What was the
operation of the Bill? Under the Municipal Reform Act
the Town councils were empowered to intimate to the Crown
their desire to have a Recorder appointed, accompanying that
suggestion with a statement of the amount of salary they were
prepared to give; and if the propositions were suitable to the
views of the Crown the appointment of the Recorder was
vested in the Crown—so the matter stood. —( Hear, hear,
beer.) But this Bill proposed to give to the Recorder
so appointed the appointment of a Deputy ; so it stood when
the matter was before the House on a former occasion. In
some cases when the business of the Quarter Session would
exceed or be equal to three days, the Bill, as it was in-
troduced by the Honourable and Learned Member, pro-
posed to give to the Recorder the power of naming his
deputy. It was now proposed, and so far it was an improve-
ment, that he should not have the power unless there was
That
an intimation by the Town Council of its necessity.
was objectionable still, and for this reason, that after the
Town-Council should have made such intimation, the
Recorder might appoint a deputy who might be directly
adverse to the feelings of the Town Council ; or if
in the first instance, he should appoint a deputy, on the under-
standing that a particular individual should be named, yet
still when the Town -Council should express a desire to
have a deputy, he might at his pleasure revoke the ap-
pointment.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared to him (Mr. Harvey)
therefore, that the same party who intimated the necessity of
a Recorder, should also intimate the necessity of a deputy—
that intimation to be made to the Crown, and the Crown either
to have the power of naming the deputy as it had the power of
naming the principal, or that the Crown should have the veto
on the suggestion of the Corporation. The present measure
was a species of forensic jobbery which would prove fatal to
the independence of the Bar.—(Cries. of " Hear.") It was
proposed to give ten guineas a day to the Deputy Recorder,
that would be 30 guineas a session, .120 guineas a-year; and if
all the barristers on the circuit were examined it would be
found to ho a great God-send to most of them, the consequence
of which would he, that while the leading men would be looking
up to the bench with a judicial countenance, the young bar-
risters would be expecting places as Recorders, or Deputy-
recorders, under the provisions of the Bill. That, he be-
lieved, would altogether destroy the independence of the
profession.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the difficulty complained of could
easily be got rid of, without resorting to the proposed Bill.
Instead of giving a Recorder power to appoint a deputy, he
would propose that instead of sitting, as at present, but
two days, he should now be empowered to sit oftener until all
the business should be disposed of. He would propose a clause
in the Committee to that effect. _ . _

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was not aware, until
lately, of the great ineor.veniences arising from the 'quantity
of business in the Recorder's Court. Before the Municipal
Reform Bill, there were two Courts sitting at Quarter Ses-
sions, and since the passing of that measure, there could oLly
on.. Court be held, which he was extremely sorry to find
had produced great inconvenience and delay to the suitors.
The Recorder could have an assistant, provided the Town-
council approved of it, and it rested with them to decide whe-
ther there should be a second Court or not. The previsions
appeared to him very judicious, and the Bill should therefore
have his support.
Sir E. WILMOT, with reference to an observation that
had been made by the lion. Member for Bath, would observe
that the R:corder had power to sit, not only four times a year,
but oftener, if he thought proper.
The House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL in the
Chair,
Clauses up to 9 were agreed to, with a fow verbal amend-
ments. _ . _

Mr. BARING opposed the 10th clause, which directed the
periods at which the Sessiotr should he hold, on the ground of
their being too numerous. It would he impossible to get
competent members of the bar to attend every month, and he
should oppose it.
Mr. ROEBUCK did not think it would be a great evil, if
members of the bar did not attend. Perhaps attorneys could
practice in that Court, as well as barristers. ( Hear,
hear.) But there were other parties, who had escaped
the attention of the Honourable and Learnod Member
opposite—the poor prisoners.-:—(llear.)' Would-it not be bet-
ter if prisoners could be tried at the end.: of one -month in-
stead of at the end of three months ?—t Cries of " Hear.")
Would not such a course contribute much to the diminution
of crime, and contribute to a good and proper feeling of the
people towards the administration of justice ?—( Hear, bear.)
It would also be the means of saving great expense, and he
should vote for the sitting once a month.
Mr. AG LIO NBY could not agree in all that had been
spoken by his Hon. Friend who had just sat down. He thought
it impossible to carry into effect what the Hon. Member de-
sired. It would be impossible to get a barrister, of respect-
able station in his profession, to go about the country
travelling at great expense for a salary under 1501. a year.
But then the lion. Member opposite said that the deputy should
be resident in the town. Now if a proposition were made for
the establishment of local courts, he was sure the Hon. Gent.
would be himself one of the first to oppose a motion to that
effect.—( Hear, hear, hear. )=Ha thought it would be
im-
possible to carry into effect the theory of hia Hon. Friend the
Member for Bath, and he should be very reluctantly obligedto
divide against him. In his Mr. Aglionby's county ( Cumber_
land) he was sure the attendance• of a London Barrister had
contributed greatly to the establishment of public confidence
in the administration of justice, and he hoped that nothing
would he done to deprive those Local Courts of Judicature of
that advantage.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL hoped the Hon. Member
for Bath would not press his amendment, as the remuneration
proposed would be wholly inadequate to defray the expense of
constantly travelling about.
Mr. BAINES would ask the Hon. Member why, upon the
same principle, the assizes and quarter sessions did not sit
every month ?
Mr. ROEBUCK—I can't tell.—( A laugh.)
Mr. HARVEY suggested that the Bill ought to be sent to
a Committee up stairs. It was impossible to consider its de-
tails in a desultory conversation like the present. He ob-
jected to the Assistant- Recorder being paid so much a-day, as
it would be a strong inducement to him to protract the sittings.
It appeared to him to be a question which required con-
sideration.—( Hear, hear.) But there was another question
to which he would request the attention of the House • it
was true that the Assistant Recorder was not appointed without
the sanction or intimation of the Town Council ; but he
would ask when was this intimation to be given, and
how long a time• was there,to elapse between the first and
second intimation—was it -to be made every Session—.
and was there . this account to be a constant
succession of ,diaciiisio4: in. the Council from the ne-
cessity of asking leave to 'make the appointment ?—( Hear,
hear, hear.) If this' were -to' be' so, it- was a specimen of
juvenile jurisprudeticei would be most inconvenient.
Besides this, the subject was one to which the House should
give its attention, and it was impossible that a hundred
gentlemen at a distance could heir the conversational discussion
of the clauses; lie would therefore give the House an op-
portunity of reflection, by moving that the Chairman do
now report progress, with a view to referring the Bill to a
Committee up stairs.
After a few words from Mr. S. W ORTLE Y, which were
inaudible, .

Mr. ROEBUCK said that, in his opinion, the course to
be pursued was, that the question should be put, and when
the Speaker had taken the chair the Bill should be reported,
and then the motion made to refer it to a Committee up stairs.
The question wai then put and agreed to, and the house
having resumed,

Sir G. CLERK reported progress.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY then moved that the Bill be re-
ferred to a Committee up stairs.
The SPEAKER suggested that the usual course Fur-
sued, was to report the Bill—to have the Bill
reprinted with the amendments, and have a day fixed for a
further consideration of the Report. Then would be the time
for the Hon. Member for Southwark to make his motion.
After a few words from Mr. Harvey, Mr: Roebuck, Sir G.
Clerk, and Mr. Aglionby,
The Bill, as amended, was ordered to be printed, and taken
into consideration on Wednesday next.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS AMENDMENT
BILL.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in moving the bringing
up of the Report of the Municipal Corporation Amendments
Bill stated, since it was before the House he had done every-
thing in his power to meet the views of lion. Gentlemen op-
posite.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
statement as to the two first instances in which he had altered
the Bill it was quite impossible to collect, in consequence of
the confusion which prevailed in the House. The third alte-
ration he had made related to the expenditure of the Town
Councils. The 92d clause of the Act specified certain pur-
poses to which borough funds might be applied. To provide
that the expenditure for other purposes than those specified
should not ne made an abuse, he had prepared a clause by
which every money-order issued from the Common Council,
for any purpose not specified in the Act, should be lodged with
the Clerk of the Peace for three weeks, and be subjected to
the opinion of the Recorder of the place, or other corresponding
t.i.netionary, and if disallowed by him, should be declared null
and void.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MARJORIBANKS complained that no intimation
had been given him of the intended presentation of the Feti-
tion from the burgesses of Hythe, presented on Wednesday
by the Member for East Kent, although he met and spoke
with that Right lion. Baronet on two occasions preceding the
presentation of the petition.
Sir E. KNATCIIBULL said the Hon. Member was mis-
taken in supposing that he had met with (Sir Edward) on the
occasion to which he alluded. The lion. Gentl,taan said this
was a case in which his constituents were concerned, and ap-

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 1837.