The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-23 00:00:00

LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 23, 1837.

PRICE sd.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

Dover to Gravesend, and another from Gravesend to Margate,
had been handed over to this Company, and therefore that, in
fact, that statement of the capital of the Company being
3,000,0001. was incorrect. Another minor allegation was
that although the capital of the Company according to
the estimates delivered to the House was 3,000,0001., yet
by an advertisement which was put forward the capital was
stated at only 2,000,0001. This charge, however, he would
not dwell upon. The real gravamen in the petition was con-
tained in one of "its clauses, and which, in order that he
might not be guilty of any exaggeration, he would read
to the House. He had stated that the capital of the
Company, according to the estimate, delivered to the
House was 3,000,0001. Now the House was aware that
according to its Standing Orders, a list of the subscribers
to the amount of 50 per cent. upon the estimated ca-
pital must be delivered to the House with the bona fide address
of those parties. A list had been delivered exceeding
to a small amount, fifty per cent., namely, 1,590,1504
In the list of subscribers so delivered in, there were thirty-
three names attached for the amount f 224,9001. What
was alleged in the petition was, that those subscribers were mere
men of straw put down previous to the list of subscribers being
delivered, for the purpose of making up the pretended sum of
50 per cent., which was necessary for proceeding with the Bill
in that House. The petition stated the circumstances under
which those pretended subscribers names had been obtained, and
it alleged that on February 14, some of the promoters of the Bill
procured the attendance of numbers of indigent and gambling ,
persons at the office of Mr. Hammond, ?Mincing-lane, who
were induced to sign the subscription contract for various sums
sif money, and that several individuals received sums of 3s. or
4s. each, for affixiN. their signatures to the subscription deed
varying in amount from 5001. to 12,000/. In confirmation of
this clause in that petition, he had another petition, signed by
the parties to this fraud, acknowledging that they had done so,
and as far as prima facie evidence went, of a nature which a
Member was justified in offering to the House as the ground-
work for future proceedings. He considered that the
evidence upon which the allegations contained in the petition
rested, was as complete as was necessary for further investi-
gation. The second petition was very short, and he would
state it to the House. The names of six of the parties, out
of the 33, were appended to the petition for sums varying
from 5001. to 12,0004 It stated the petitioners were induced,
on the 14th of February, to sign the Parliamentary contract to
the Kent Railway Company; that they executed the deeds
at the request of one Jacob Costello for the sum of
four shillings; that they executed the Parliamentary contract
and subscribers' deeds at the office of F. G. Hammond, Com-
mercial-hall, Mincing-lane ; that they were not shareholders
in the Kent Railway Bill at the time of so doing; and that
they had signed the deeds for large suns of money; being in-
formed there was no responsibility attached to them
in doing so, but that they had since been informed
that they had incurred a very serious responsibility.
The petitioners stated that, in their opinion, there was no other
tribunal to which they could appeal than to this House, upon
whose honour and dignity great fraud had been committed.
The persons at whose office the transactions were alleged to
have taken place was the Chairman of the Local Provisional
Committee meeting at Greenwich. His name was affixed as
a subscriber for 7,500/., and he (Mr. W.) understood was a
magistrate. —( Hear, hear. hear.) This flagrant case was
brought before the House; and, in his opinion, it was a
sufficient ground-work for the appointment of a Committee
to investigate the transaction. There were other charges of
a general nature, such as that there were various needy and
indigent persons whose names appeared on the list of sub-
scribers ; that there were other persons of gambling
habits who had taken shares to the amount of 300,000/,
in addition to the 224,000/. already alluded to ; and that
there were fictitious names of persons to the subscription list,
and of those who were not committed at all as shareholders.
There were other circumstances mentioned in the petition,
which, as they involved the names of individuals, he did not
think it prudent to mention, but he would leave them to
go before the Committee, and there have an investigation
into the charges preferred. He mentioned yesterday
that the petition had more or less involved the character of
Hon. Members of that House. Now, that to which he alluded
was not in the nature of an indirect charge, but it asserted that
certain Members of the House were on the Provisional Com-
mittee of that which he could not help calling a fraudulent
Company. The names of' the Members of the House men-
tioned were first that of Lieutenant-Colonel Sir A. L. Hay ;
secondly, of Mr. Hesketh Fleetwood; and thirdly, of Mr.
W. F. Finn. He understood from one of these gentlemen,
that at present he was not on the Committee, but had resigned
his office. In that case, the number of Members would be
reduced to two. He made no charge against these Hon.
Members, beyond that of having been guilty of a degree of cul.
pablcs negligence, in allowing their names to be connected with
a Company, the nature of which they were not fully informed of.
These were the gaudy flies and tinsel which hid the barb by
which the dupes of society were afterwards hooked. He
would, therefore, entreat of that House to grant him a Com-
mittee, if it were only for the purpose of informing Members
of that House, and the public, what it was that Hon. Members
did, when they unwarily allowed their names to be attached
to Companies, with the proceedings of which they were
not thoroughly acquainted.—( Hear, hear.) He wished to God
they could drive the money changers (for such they were) out
of that temple. —( Hear, and cheers.) There were, he re-
gretted to say, gentlemen with too much readiness or unwari-
ness to allow their names to be attacked to Companies like
the present. Let them only conceive the multiplied evils that
arose from such speculations. He bad seen tho pamphlet of
a Gallant Officer, formerly a Member of that House, in which
the conduct of the Bank of England was criticised, and he
was of opinion that all the evils of the money market were
attributable to that Bank, and that the Joint-stock Banks
had nothing to do with it. He (Mr. Warburton) classed
Joint-stock Banks improperly conducted and Companies of that
kind in the same category, and as calculated to distress the
money-market. It was very true that the currency and the
Bank of England were not affected, if they had the moral
courage and force to resist all applications made to them in
contravention of general principles. But it was Companies
like the present that distressed manufacturers and merchants
when they became subscribers—when the day of payment ar-
rived the parties were perhaps distressed, and the Bank of Eng-
land was required to supply the deficiency, and then it
was that—in spite of their better judgment—they made
advances by which the currency was enlarged, and it was in
vain to say that beyond the evil to individuals these Compa-
nies were not pregnant with national evils. ( Hear, hear.)
There were other matters in the petition, but he believed
that he had already stated a grave case of fraud upon that
House, and in contravention of its Standing Orders. It would
be his duty after the presentation of the petition to move
for the appointment of a Committee. As to the constitution
of that Committee, he believed that according to the prece-
dent in a similar case, the case of the Birmingham and Lon-
don Junction Canal petition, where almost a similar fraud was
alleged, it was referred to the Committee on petitions.
That Committee had already reported that every thing
was regular, and in compliance with the Standing Orders.
The fraud was discovered after the appointment of the Com-
mittee on the Bill, and therefore the petition was referred to
them. In this case the fraud had been discovered before the
Committee had been appointed, and therefore it became
a question for the House to settle whether such a
Committee was the proper tribunal for a judicial in-
quiry. Ho would rather advise that the matter of the
petition should be referred to a Committee, certainly of
not more than 15 ; he would prefer fewer, but certainly not
snore, and the Committee to be constituted, with perfect fair-
ness, and of Gentlemen whose names would add weight to
their recommendation. He would not then propose the names
for the Committee. In fact, he thought the case was one of
so much importance, that he thought the Government ought
to appoint the Committee. He moved that the petitions be
brought up and referred to a Select Committee.
Sir A. L. HAY said that although his name appeared in
the direction of several Companies last year, he had never ad.
dressed the House either in favour of those with which lie was

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 22.
The House sat at Five o'Clock.
CHURCH-RATES.
Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from Upper
Molesworth against the abolition of Church-rates.
Lord GODOLPHIN presented a petition from Willing-
ham, praying for the abolition of Church-rates.
Lord FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from Peter-
borough and its hamlets in favour of the abolition of Church-
rates.

vious knowledge of this petition, withdrawn his name from the
Directorship, not from any circumstances connected with the
statement made by the Hon. Member for Bridport, hut because
his name had been set down as a Director of a Railway from
London to Ramsgate, and he had informed the gentlemen
connected with the Railway, that if it were to be continued to
Dover, he would cease to be a Director. He bad, therefore,
virtually ceased to be a Director ; and this previous to
the presentation of this petition. But in making this
statement he wished to disclaim any attempt to free
himself from any imputations connected with the Director-
ship. The House must be aware that gentlemen occasionally
when they saw a scheme which they considered of national
advantage brought forward, gave their countenance and name
to it as Provisional Directors. He (Mr. Fleetwood) was not
cognizant of what took place on this subject before the Direc-
tors, but it was his duty to state, for the vindication of the in-
dividuals connected with the railway, a few points connected
with the formation of the Joint Company. Two years ago two
Bills were before the House, one for making a railway from Lon-
don to Gravesend, the other from London to Dover.
When the Joint Company was formed, in his opinion a proper
course of proceeding took place. Notice was given to the
shareholders in the undertaking, which had been rejected by
she House, that there was a surplus I in hand, and that any
person who chose to withdraw his name would have his
money returned. Only one individual requested it, and it
was immediately done. If such a course had been
pursued, he could not see how the term fraudulent
could be applied to the formation of this Company ; as in his
opinion the Committee would be the best judges, he would
not trouble the House further on the subject, except by stating
that he gave his cordial assent to the formation of a special
Committee, to inquire into the matter, with this 'reservation,
that if, in consequence of the time that was taken up by that
Committee, the period allowed by the House should be ex-
ceeded, supposing the parties concerned shculd, by the deci-
sion of that Committee, be cleared from the charges brought
against them, the House would not suffer the Bill to be lost.
Mr. W. FINN made a few observations that were inaudible
in the gallery.
Sir E. KNA TCHBULL was glad that the Hon. Member
opposite had acceded to the suggestions which he threw out
yesterday. He thought that no better course could be pur-
sued than the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire
into the charges that were made in the petition. There was
one observation, however, which he wished to make, and that
was, that after what had passed on the present occasion, gentle-
men should be a little cautious how they lent their names to any
project of this description. It was not for Lim to say more
upon the conduct of the gentlemen whose names had been
mixed up with the petition, than that they had been charged
by the Hon. Mover with great negligence as Directors of this
Company. He would not say that the charge was supported,
because that was not his province, but that of the Committee.
He knew that there were many out of doors who were inte-
rested in this inquiry, and who were naturally interested that
the investigation should be pursued ; and he trusted the selec-
tion of the Committee would be such as would secure the con-
fidence of the country, for he was persuaded that the eyes of
all those persons who were interested in railways would
be directed to their proceedings ; and he trusted the re-
sult of the inquiry would be such, as would open the
eyes of the public to many transactions of the same cha-
racter, connected with these speculations.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") He had been frequently applied to to subscribe
to schemes of this character, but he was unwilling to embark
his money in such projects ; he had also been applied to to fill
the situation of Director, but he did not think that if he as-
sented he could have satisfactorily performed his duty in inves-
tigating in his place in Parliament the character of these
schemes.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think that in his station,
as a Member for the County he had the- honour to represent,
he should take such a part in them as would have tended to
bias public opinion in one way or the other.—( Hear, hear.)
He would say no more now upon the subject, than to express
to the Hon. Gentleman opposite his concurrence in the course
he had pursued.
Mr. M. ATT WOOD said that he was desirous that the
circumstances stated by the Hon. Member for Bridport de-
served the fullest investigation' and if the parties could be
proved guilty, they deserved the highest punishment the House
could inflict on thern.—( Hear.)
Mr. G ISB 0 RNE said that it was necessary they should be
careful in not stepping forward to interfere before the right
time arrived, or when other tribunals could take cognisance
of the circumstances. He understood that a petition
for leave to bring in the Bill was about to go be-
fore the section of a Committee which had been appointed
this session, and he considered that all the allegations made
by the Hon. Member for Bridport, except one, had reference
to points respecting which this section of a Committee could
enquire—the nature of a Committee on petitions for leave to
bring in bills being varied—the enquiry used to be an ex-
parte one, and only one party having appeared before the
Committee, they reported upon it. The Hon. Member for
Bridport had stated there was no law providing punishment
for such a fraud.—(Hear, hear.) Supposing that were the
case, he very much doubted whether it would be the
duty of the House, or whether it would be expedient to ap-
point a Committee. He had not the least desire to screen
any of the parties, but at the same time he thought there was
some danger of the House stepping beyond its functions, and
he thought the present was not the most convenient time for
such a Committee to he appointed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER differed
entirely from his lion. Friend who had last spoken. If the
House made itself to a certain extent responsible to the public
for the success of their undertakings, and if, in defence of
their own Standing Orders, they were required to appoint a
Committee, he thought they could not object to it. If a sys-
tem of fraud was proved only to the extent of making it a
subject of inquiry, and they were to leave the parties to the
vexation of expense and trouble in a court of law, he
thought they would be abrogating one of their greatest
functions, and neglecting an imperative duty. At the same
time unless these charges were supported by evidence, he dis-
trusted a little the statement of gentlemen, who after admit-
ting they had been parties to a fraud, come forward
to state they were willing to vindicate the rights and privileges
of the House. However, he thought the motion of the Hon.
Member for Bridport a very just 0ne...---( Hear, hear.) Parties
applying to Parliament should be aware that the full amount
of the sum at the disposal of the Exchequer Commissioners
was entirely exhausted, and he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) undoubtedly considered that Parliament would do well
to pause before they renewed that fund, with a view to the en-
couragement of such speculations. If parties did engage in
those speculations, at least let them do so with their own
money, and without involving the State—and, above all, let
them engage in them in a way that will not be generally incon-
venient to the circulating medium of the land. The specu-
lators who got up Bills in that way would find that the capital
would not be supplied, and then the subscribers would have a
complaint either against the Government or against that House.,
He would be sorry in that stage of the proceedings to throw
any distrust or discredit on thse great national undertakings
when in the hands of proper persons, and when properly di-
rected ; because in the general state of the capital of England,
if the speculation was a good one, and if the object was just,
they might on all occasions trust to the general capital of the
country.
Lord STANLEY quite agreed with his Right Hon.
Friend, that this was a question so materially affecting their
proceedings, that it would be impossible to suffer it to go
before any tribunal but one appointed by that House. It
was, if the facts were true, a case of the grossest
fraud attempted to be practised upon that House, and while he
fully acquitted the Hon. Member who had been alluded to from
any participation in a fraud so gross and so infamous, he felt
confident that the statement made must have the effect of
warning Members how they lent their names—their high
and honourable names—to the possibility of even a suspicion
of beim-, in any ay concerned in such practices.—(Hear.)
He hadjunifornil"pon all occasions refused to allow his name
to be made use of to any Company of any sort or kind what-
ever-4 Hear)—and he wa- 'le se-- hr if Gr lemee -- Id

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Upon the motion of Lord DUNCANNON this Bill was
read a third time and passed.
Upon the motion of the same NOBLE LORD, a message was
ordered to be sent to the Commons, stating that their Lord-
ships had agreed to the Bill with amendments, and desiring
their concurrence to such amendments.

POST-OFFICE CONTRACT BILL.
Upon the motion of Lord DUNCANNON this Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.--
Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Film!.Aar 22.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at five minutes before four
o'clock.
Mr. VIGORS was introduced by Mr. H. Grattan and Mr.
Finn, when he took the oaths and his seat for Carlow, in the
room of the late Mr. Kavanagh. The Hon. Gentleman was
received with cheers.
GLASGOW AND AYR RAILWAY.
Mr. S. LE FE VRE brought up the Report of the Com-
mittee on the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway,
stating that the Standing Orders had been conlied with.
BRIGHTON RAILWAY.
Mr. TOOKE held in his hand the petition of a very re-
spectable gentleman on the subject of the Brighton Railways,
the allegations of which would furnish evidence of the manner
in which the public interests were compromised for the sake of
propitiating the support of a private bill. When Stevenson's
line of railway was introduced into that House, it was proposed
that the terminus in Brighton should be in the land of the peti-
tioner, Mr. Goldsmid, who had expended 100,0001. in the pur-
chase and improvement of that property, and it was stated in the
Report of Mr. Stevenson's Engineer, that no other terminus
could be found more eligible. In consequence of this the pe-
titioner took a very considerable interest in the concern—he
was a subscriber to a very large amount, and, in fact, he and
his friends took more than one-fifth of the capital, and paid
10,0001. deposit, and his and their exertions contributed very
mainly to the successful result of that measure in this House.
It would be recollected that the measure was ultimately lost in
the House of Lords.
Mr. \MKS rose to order. He did not see how the House
could entertain the allegations contained in this petition.
Mr. TOOKE had given full notice that he was about to
present this petition. He had sent the Hon. Member for
Sussex a copy of that petition. He would not trespass many
minutes on the time of the House—
The SPEAKER—Did the Hon. Member intend to move
that the petition be referred to the Committee on the Bill ?
Mr. TOOK E merely wished to mention the peculiar and
extraordinary circumstances contained in the petition.
The SPEAKER—If the Hon. Member could show that
the House was in a situation to deal decidedly with this pe-
tition, it would be for the House to say whether or not lie
should proceed with his statement. He did not see how the
House could deal with the petition.
Mr. TOOKE wished only to state to the House the gene-
ral nature of the petition, which he would do in a very few
words.
Mr. HUME was sorry to interrupt the Hon. Member, but
the House was not, at the present moment, in a condition to
come to any resolution on the subject. In fact the statement
was ex parte unless some gentleman rose to make a counter one.
Mr. TOOKE would merely state that by the resolution of
the Committee the original line was adhered to. Since then,
however, that had been altered. In his opinion Mr. Gold-
smid had been sacrificed for the sake of passing the Bill.
Captain PEC HE Ll, rose, but was interrupted by
The SPEAKER, who said that the best course to pursue
was to bring up the petition, and to have no further discussion
upon it.
The petition was then brought up.
Lord J. STUART presented a petition in favour of the
Glasgow and Ayr Railway Bill,
Lord GEORGE LE NN 0 X presented a petition from
Galway, praying for leave to present a petition to bring in
a Bill to form a railway from Galway to Athlone.
OXFORD AND GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY.
Mr. HARCOURT moved the second reading of this Bill.
Captain PEC HE LL presented a petition from a place, the
name of which we could not catch, against the Bill.
The HON. MEMBER also presented a petition from Jonathan
Peel, Esq., against the same Bill, and returned to his seat.
He then rose again, and exclaimed--" Mr. Speaker,—while
I was taking up the petition, this Bill was read a second time.
—(Laughter.) I have a great deal to say upon it—( Hear,
hear,)—and I mean to move that it be read this day six
months."—(Great laughter. )—The Hon. Member then went
on to say that it was a most unjust measure, and unless the Hon.
Member who had charge of the Bill would delay it for a week,
he should certainly divide the House upon it. The line of road
was only nine miles in length, and he hoped the Hon. Mem-
bers for the University of Oxford would protect its rights and
interests by preventing a measure of this sort from passing.
Nine-tenths of the landholders were opposed to it. There
was another line which would certainly be adopted, and, there-
fore, the present measure was uncalled for and unnecessary,
and he should oppose it in every stage. If this line were
adopted, the Thames, the Isis, and God Almighty knew how
many other springs and rivers, would be let in upon the land
along which this line was to pass.—(Great laughter.) Talk
of justice to Ireland—( Continued laughter, and loud cries of
" Hear, hear")—he would say, look at the injustice that would
be committed if this measure were to pass. The landowners
had been treated with contempt, and in a manner that was
most unbecoming. He thought the line was altogether un-
called for, and unless the Hon. Member for Oxford County
consented to adjourn the second reading of the Bill, at least
for one week, he (Captain Pechell) would feel it his duty to
divide the House upon the motion.
Mr. HARCO URT saw no reason for consenting to the re-
quest for postponing the second reading.
Mr. E STC 0 URT assured the Hon. Member for Brighton
that he was quite alive to the interests of the University which
he represented, and if those interests were at all interfered
with, he would be ready to oppose the Bill. But he did not
think there was sufficient cause shown forstopping theprogress
of the measure, and he thought the better course would be to
send the Bill to a Committee, where all in merits or demerits
might be fully investigated.
Mr. MA CL E AN hoped the House would not becalled upon
to reject the Bill at that stage without its merits having been
canvassed.

Mr. H UME would suggest to the Hon. Member for
Brighton, that the House was unable to come to a decision upon
the question at that moment. He understood the Hon.
Member to require that the Bill should not be hurried
through that House, and that they should not go into a
Committee too hastily. He thought the fairest course
would be for the Hon. Member opposite to assent to that
Course.

Captain PECHELL would withdraw his amendment, if
he had an assurance given him that the Bill would not be
hurried—in fact, the speculators and shareholders were the
only parties interested, while the opinion.; of the landholders
had been completely thrown overboard. There were actually
104 dissents, and only 72 assents, to the line.
Mr. HARCOURT had no objection to postpone the Com-
mittee for 14 days.
The Bill was then read a second time.
On the motion of Lord STANLEY, the Preston and
Wyre Railway was read a second time.
On the motion of Mr. E. J. STANLEY the Runcorn,
Gas Bill was read a second time.
The Great Western Railway (Paddington) and the Great
Western Railway (Trowbridge) were severally read a second
time.

Messrs. BAGSHAW and METHUEN said it would be their
duty to oppose thel3ill, unless the Railway Company settled
satisfactorily with the Wilts and Bucks Canal Company.
They would allow the Bill to go into Conuhittee, but would
hold themselves at liberty to oppose it in any future stage.
Captain BOLDERO said if they allowed the Bill to go
into Committee they would find that the Great Western
Railway would act with that fairness and liberality which had
always hitherto-actuated them.
SEVERN NAVIGATION.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG presented a petition, signed by the
Mayor of Gloucester, on behalf of the Corporation, against
the Severn Navigation Bill.
GLASGOW POLICE.
Mr. GREEN brought up the Report of the Committee on
the above Bill, stating that the Standing Orders had been
complied with.—Leave was then given to bring ingthe Bill.
The same HON. MEMBER brought up the following Report,
viz., on the Preston and Wyre Docks Bill, the Saddleworth
(York) Reservoirs Bill, the Loughborough Small Debts
Bill, the Preston and Wyre Railway Bill, and the West
London and Westminster Cemetery Bill.
YORK AND MIDLAND RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. LOWTHER the Bill was read a first
time.

MANCHESTER. AND STAFFORD RAILWAY.
On the moticit of. Mr. WILBRAHAM the Manchester,
Cheshire, and Stafford Railway Bill was read a first time.
DEPTFORD AND DOVER RAILWAY.
Mr. WARBURTON then rose. He said he had to pre-
sent to the House two petitions, which for the first time ho
had adverted to in the course of yesterday afternoon. The
first petition was from the owners and occupiers of land on the
line of the projected Railway from Deptford to Dover. Three
individuals had signed the petition, one of whom he (Mr.
Warburton) knew to be a respectable man. The amount of the
capital of this projected Railroad Company was 3,000,000/.
sterling. There were various allegations in the petition upon
which it was unnecessary for him to dwell particularly. One
,;-as Oa the ca,Atal of two former Companies—one from

le ged in the peti • n, and he was of opinion that a case I.
been fully mad " out, which required investigation. He
r.
however, principally for the purpose of stating that he wo:
have had no objection to the course proposed by the H•
Member for Bridport, namely, to appoint a Select Co
mittee to which the case could be referred. Had this ca
occurred last year, that would have been the proper me
of proceeding, because up to that period no tribe
existed which could competently inquire into the facts
leged. The Select Committee on the Standing, Orders cot.
not until lately make any inquiry into the question by the ex
mination of both sides, and there was no opportunity of inv,
tigating the case between the different parties. Ile thou&
one of the best results of the Committee of last year was t
appointment of a Select Committee of 42 Members, divided it.
different sections, who should report on petitions for privi.
Bills, examine witnesses on both sides, and report to t
House their reasons, in case they found it necessary to at;
that the Standing Orders had not been complied with. Ti
present case was one in point, and he was unwilling to tai
out of the hands of that Committee the first instance in whi,
their opinion on such a question might be fairly asked.-
(Hear, hear.) He considered, therefore, that it would
well to refer the petition to the Standing Orders Con
mittee, who, without any suspicion as to their motives, coul
examine the circumstances of the case, and see whetlu
the subscribers to the Company were bona fide subscribers,
Under the circumstances, it would be much more preferabl
to adopt this course than appoint a Select Committee ; and
they did not discharge their duty, which, indeed, he did tu
anticipate, it would be still competent for the Hon. Membc'
for Bridport to move for the appointment of a Select Corn
mittee ; but, in the first instance, he did not think it advisabl
to relieve the Standing Orders Committee of its special duty:
Mr. R. PALMER suggested that the subdivisions of th,
standing Committee had enough of business before them now.
He believed that not one of them had less than ten or twelv
Bills before them. As this was a special case, he thought i,
would be better to have a special Committee for the investi-
gation of the case.
Mr. WARBURTON said the Hon. Member had antici-
pated the objections which he was going to urge. There was
one more. Suppose the Committee were to withdraw the
Bill, which they could do if they liked, there would be
an end of the enquiry altogether.—(Great cheering.)
Those who subscribed to the principle of this petition were
not parties to the Company. Would it be fair that the par-
ties who thus complained of the committal of fraud should
carry on the investigation at their own expense. Why s'hould
this inquiry be conducted at the expense of the petitioners ?
It was not a private question—(loud cries of " Hear, hear,)
for the three reasons he had assigned, first, that it was not the
business of the petitioners but of the public; 2ndly, it would
be in the power of the parties to stop these proceedings by
withdrawing their Bill; 3dly, because it could not otherwise
be conducted at the public expence as it ought—for these rea-
sons he thought a Select Committee should be appointed.—.-
(Hear, hear.)
Col. SIBTH 0R P could not allow this petition to be
laid
on the table without stating that what had fallen from t'ne
President of the Board of Trade and from the Honoural de
Member for Bridport had given him the greatest satisft le-
tion. It was well known that he had always been a deck led
anti-railroad man—(A laugh)—and he would as so on
allow his name to be put upon a directorship for the menu& e-
taring and sale of Morrison's pills, as for any railroad *or
steam humbug.—( A laugh.) He hoped the House would
appoint a Select Committee, and he was quite sure that the
instance mentioned by the Hon. Member for Bridport, was far
' from being a solitary one. The House must see the necessity
of putting some check to these schemes. They were surveyed!
by moonlight, and concocted by attorneys or their clerks,
and brought about either by their eloquence or their pocket..
If this petition and the Committee consequent upon it did not
open the eyes of the public, and prevent their being deluded ,
and their pockets being picked, it would be high time for tI ,e
House to interfere with more effect. He trusted that t.l tse
lion. Member for Bridport would persevere in his motion f or
the appointment of a•Sclect Committee.
Mr. MACLEAN said, that although he was not an ad-
vocate for Government taking up subjects of this descrip'
either by Exchequer Loans or otherwise, yet lie thought, con-
sidering the vast expence that was incurred in the esta' 31iih-
ment of these Railroads, in almost every one of whic h
viations were afterwards made in the line, a Commis riot 1 of
Inquiry should be appointed to determine which was t-ho'best
line to be taken for the public good. He wished to kncow -from the President of the Board of Trade, whether it was, site in..
tention of the Government to appoint any Commission of•
Inquiry.

Mr. P. THOMSON said that it was not the intention .-of
Government to appoint any such Commission.
The petitions were then ordered to be referred to a select
Committee. •

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Messengers from the House brought up the Irish Grand
Jury Bill, which they stated their Lordships hp. 4
passed wi'Lh
amendments.

IRISH MUNICIPAL BIL:L.
Mr.
in favour O'
of MuCONni ciNEpal Ref
presenform red a largQ 'number of petitioras
.
ADJOURNED DErJATE.
' Mr. BROTHE RT 0 N said that. :is a difficulty had arisen
last night in consequence of his baying moved the ado n-
ment of the debate on the Irish Municipal Bill on the previous
night, and not having resumed it, he would now say itt, few
words in reference to what had been stated respecting /den-
. cheater.—( Hear.) It had been said that Manchester ha
.d not
i7'sl9ed
manifested any desire to obtain a Municipal Corporat
and
much stress bad been laid upon this by the other side, of the
House.—(flear. ) Now he thought he would he full-
.titifi
in saying that the fact was, that among all classes of itibabitants,
and in every degree, it was the unanimous desire to, obtain an
improved system of local government, or, the b asis of Cor-
porations.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The difficulty had been in
making an arrangement which would prove satisfactory to the
townships which constituted the town of Manchester. There
hail-, however, been a meeting held, and a Committee al?..
pointed to consider the subject ; that Committee had made a
report which he now held in his hand, and with the leave of t;lite
House he would read the concluding part of it.—( Mew-,
hear.) It was that :—" In conclusion your Committee beg
most respectfully, but earnestly, to impress upon t ,heir
fellow townsmen the importance of an early arrangemei et of
this important subject, and they think that the present time
is a most favourable opportunity for effecting it. The subject
should not he viewed as a party question, but as one which. should have the good of the community for its sole object,.
by the constitution of a local government„ which will sustain
the acquirement and be worthy of the character of the town.,
The interests of every part of the borough, which are one ana
the same to all intents and purposes, ought to be strengthend d
by consolidation, instead of being weakened as they now si; e
by subdivisions and distinctions inimical to the general good L"
He thought, therefore, he had proved that Manchester it us
desirous of having Municipal Government.--( Hear, hear )
He should not then enter upon the general question, as 1 Se
could not expect to interest the House by anything he cou Id
advance. He considered the subject was nearly exhauste cl,
and he would only now state his opinion, that having pails'
-considerable attention to the debate, he had not heard enter
shadow of an argument on the other side, or any fact
tending to prove that Corporations would not be tighly bene
ficial to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard some alma ra
expressed with regard to the Church—that the Establish( si
Church of Ireland would be injured by Municipal Reform._;
but for his own part he thought he could give proof that he:
had no hostility to the Church, when he said he was the -
roughly convinced the Church of Ireland would eselLt
twice as long if Municipal Reform were granted, as
it would if it were withheld.—(Hear, hear, heat.)
Believing, then, that its operation would be beneficial to Ire-
land, he should give his cordial support to the original mo-
tion.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord CLEMENTS said he regretted, in entering
upon the question of Municipal Reform, that it would be
necessary for him to make a few observations with referemce
to the skeet which the Learned Sergeant opposite had twice
brought before the House, viz., the subject of the Lord Lieu-.
tenant exercising the Royal prerogative•of mercy. That was
a prerogative so important, which, if the Learned Sergeant
could show had been prostituted, would go far to satisfy
him that the Government of Ireland under Lord
grave had been what he had always considered it—
to be the best and most proper system for Ireland, by whic'h
that country had, ever been ruled. He would read a lettt
from a gentleman in the county of Cavan—a gentleman as re-
spectable as any gentleman who at that moment occupied the op-
posite be:a:lies—lid meant Mr. Sanderson, of Castle Sanders on,
brother-in-law of the most Conservative Member of the count y of
Cavan—a gentleman too, who had done as much to promote the
veace of the County of Cavan, and who, when in Parli•

connected, or against.- was quite sure that i_ eentlemen wan.
those in opposition. He rose then merely only give themselves the trouble of considering the expediency. ---,Le, ..._ ..e, ~, earliamente
. ned done so much to promote the lasting connexion between
England and Ireland, and the peace of the two countries, as
for the purpose of stating the reason of his name appearing in of not allowing their names to appear before the public as no direction of the present Company.. Last year he consented minal Directors, from which they could not afterwards shake any man who had ever been in Parliament. He had told the
to be on the direction of the Gravesend Railway, but the off the responsibility, though they could, in truth, exercise Learned Sergeant this morning, that he should have the plea-
Bill was thrown out, and his name was transferred from the no direction, they would see the absolute necessity of sure of refuting the charge, and he should now proceed to do so.
Gravesend Bill to the present without his consent.,—(Hear.) not yielding to any such solicitations.—( Hear, hear.) The charge was that a person,' bad been found guilty of as-
He begged to say, with regard to these transactions, that 'e He would. not go into that part of the question. He smelting a revenue officer ; that a verdict of homicide had
never once attended the meetings of the Company_that he only rose to give his opinion as to the tribunal before which been given against him ; that he had been sentenced to be
had not signed the deeds of settlemeut_tbat be bad taken no this: enbject should go. At- first he was of opinion that the transported for life ; that the Lord-Lieutenant had commuted
share in the proceedings of the Company, and that until that teppointment of a Select Committee to inquire forthwith into the sentence to two years' imprisonment ; and that Ire had
day,. in consequence of what had happened in the House the the subject would be the best course to pursue. During the
night before, when he went there to ascertain the mat nature discussion, however, he -had been led to doubt the • - those two years.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Learned
proprie4 ' ti4i
of the case, •in no single instance had he ever taken the of that course. The petition for the Bill bad l gSergeant said it was necessary to prove that the ce . . cate of
slightest charge, or at all participated in the proceed- . been referred to the Standing Orders' Committee,ara the surgeon had been presented to the Lord-Lieu tenant, but
subsequentiy discharged him, before the expirat',on oY
that that had not been done. The letter to -which he referred
mixed up with the names of many ether gentlemen of high • enittees. Those Sub-Committees 'were pappointed ilinost imm--
. ings of the Company—(Hear.)—As his name had been That Committee was in the habit of eee ointirve Sb-Co
s -ionsible for the representations upon rihich the re-
respectabilityLord-Lieu-
he did not come forward to shrink from the res- partially very small in their
ponsibilit
wn•alliiileort
sbieft,
y that attached to this act. He must, however, admit igentlemen aea-inst whom it
tehnisd:alaymoueriitiogbperepvuiotusulpyotioi
athseeerptaroinviassiofialarl s einimbersl,)l anfder composed of I
tenant
released Patrick Macguire evho, for having fired.
that_ he was guilty of very considerable negligence in alleroeing be breathed. This Conemittwee wmaspeisisolt seuch suspicion
it us e d tt oo .
at a revenue policeman, _
_was.. confined in the gar,,
because it
was in these terms :—" Dear Clements—:Feeling myself
of Cavan at the time ofa _ his Excelleucy's visit, and to
which allusion was mt de. to the House of Com-
‘v
thell evidence empowered
to to
the examinebottom,. witnesses,
and
to t
doo '
,mops, I address myself A you, as you attended with the
he proceedings of the Company were honourable and e:orrect ; every •ustice •
asdilrieeectoioulds
which the case might require. Further,to High Sheriff and myself,. with other magistrates, on that oc-
but, situated as he found himself, he considered it . his duty if it j s3e'
:mid happen that they shouldbad
ucootmebeen casion, and you will. oblige me to state the facts to
the moment he knew there was any question :3 S to the the OP'
.nion that the Standing Orders the House. A. p etition in favour of Patrick Macguire
respectability of the proceedings of the Company ice with- corer' • that fact, but also
'tied with, they did not simply repoort was signed ley &Aber fourteen or fifteen Magistrates, and.
draw his name from the Directorship, though ii, a did not ere ' that Opinion, and in
grounds ona. great nueeber of the most respectable persons of Nortle
at ell. ' believe there was a single individual. anion,gst . • •whiehhadthebye
had
failure.ccereet
They were called
what respect there
.n
‘a
t ces and the facts prevail —, end, I was requested to sign it, but I declined to do so.
the,i Directors, against whom any such imputation' sas those upon to report whether the circams an. .
But as it was emeresented to be a case of great •hards'aip, and
alluded to by the Hon. Member could be suletantie ted. h 1 q' cl
to dispense wit tie ._.(gn _ .
did not think it consistent with the duty which he ow d' 'He were such as to render it proper
ho th e.•tit that a as it was stated to me that the principal persons who had
tto him-, ing Orders. Upon the whole,. therefore,
Committee°ub.
sinned it were in opposition to the Govereneent—( Hear
self and to others with whom he was connected, to remain •the Standine Orders would • ~
e Sub-Committee of a
..4.
hear, and loud cheers)—and that my name might be f great
6 o
single moment
on the directorship while there was tle • e slight
cest be the Committee to refer the subjec., to. They
imputation on it.—(Hear.) proper
ofgoing into 1 e -le I use, I promised to inquire into it, and was led to do so, but the. Mr. FLEETWOOD
bringingthose facts befog the House, Leurned Sergeant wanted to make it out as a, party outrage.'"
on the of the facts, and of le
House,
He (Lord Clements) denied that, it was a party outrage-4
except for the same circumstances as theve-w' -
Hon. and Gallant Member who last spoke had all eV eich the The House
would he> brought b it. P ° (Hear, hear, hear)—and he
`thought that it was incurs
ef,are by the
(Mr. F.'s) „ had u Ito. His teed upon the facts which
name also been introduced on this pey it would appoint .I.' C • in- bent upon the Learned Sergean when •ne made charges against
sent eca- Report, or whether
went he had to . '
offer, he did not wish to take froie,
-4. ie. the state- quire
b' qto appoint a Select Committee. Nevertheless if tl , the accurate knowledge ef the. various cases that came bef• ale
Fro er • ' • '• ' his ' •
p responsibuitywnicn having his namoontv e himself the than.
a provisional leaning op
'- • f t H .11 *
inion o tle ouse s ould be for a Select Com- him—( Cheerin,)-_that he perfectly recollected his ea.so-
rorn P. v cry
Directorship rendered him liable to with other, He wished to mittce, he should offer no objection to that cotwae. " M'Guire was laying in the hospital, and suffering f .
a aS• a
state that as one of the M bofthat i bad and diseased wound ; his case was not considere,
lem ers
were on the p i i
rQv s °nal Committee; he hpa -' 'pus; • b 4 t institute• • inquiry • , 1 ' yei4 bad Qtle e ; itici9sC ite end the Lord Lieuteneeet- or
e• i 111 l ' QUi any pie- bound QaIICCS 4 1
a gave into the cacunist