The Sun.
London, England, 1830-11-16 00:00:00

::~ ~ W~ ;:.'s li

deelsre, ttiat while we are aware that the existing discon.
ietma ariftintented by *Will anti unmineipleil egita , for
the worst AM t most toisehievou* of purposea, we 'a e tinfortuniiiitrOinlinetal, that in the. perveruion of ante ol
mar waist v 0414 institutions, in the totequal &sty; titimi
of public hoidens. ;n the prodigality of public: expen iture,
in the arbitrary 44101111er of some of our laws, and In the
corruptions anti abuses: existing in many departments of
Church and State, are tu be found in the original apil ex-
tensive sources of Ilisatimfaction and complaint ; We are,
therefore, persuaded, that by a prudent and constitutional
reform 'of admitted abuses alone (and eepeeially try a re-
vieion of our present eystem of Parliamentary repripienta.
tion) eat the design" of the disaffected he defect !I, and
tranquillity be pet manently restored and maintained;"
A similar course will be adopted, not in one pr two
other parishes only, but iu every parish of the enuntyi
where resolutions in' the came spirit will be agred to.
Therefore, if 'Mit-listen wish to preserve the liv s atul
property of this, King's subject*, they must make retrench-
ments, anti not drive to desperation men of tteknoviledeed
loyalty. Violence cattnot be put tinwit without rethoving
the (Item which produced it. At the present minnent.
the Governmetit is the cause of ell there evil,-•-(l(ear awl
laughter).•-and I have no doubt, that the heut toll most
effectual Act of Parliament will he to remove the Go-
vernment..--(Bear, hear.) '
Sir 11. PEEL—I deeply regret that the Tinto Member
has connected two subjects Which have tot the most ter
mute relation to each other—dissatisfaction with t to Go-
vernment and the legal and 'acknowledged means of sliew.
ing it, anti thie infamous system of destroying the property
of uneffentling indivithols. Ido not believe that h 144ana
What he has been tatting ; , end I feint that npinio of the
c
1
oolants:titan, of, his worths,. from communication* lie has
liOnuelf made to foe. I appeal to the House, whether it
was fin. the lion. itienther.to held out even the shadow 01
it palliation fur the late detestable proceedings, by erguitte
,
that Government is unpopitlar
Mr., HUAIE---1 dill not. i
,
Sir B. PEEL--.Wlettever he may tin,' I acqu t those
~. , . ,
whit feel dissetisfied with Government of any perti 'tuition
iii these infamous actin I ilo
,not Believe that thpre it a
iliiiih Mg map in the maininunity, however oppeeed to Ge-
sell:menu who would perticipete in these excestiee, end
tele, AVOUId not join any confederacy to put an end to them,
Whatever Italia, of, dissatiefectiop there may be, t tete is a
elrar distinction between that' issatiefartion and nutrage,
Milt)/ as every titan Ittittplta, ''Willi lion. Mentluir buttes
truly, that voluntery iisStieiatione have been farmed in rat.
~ .. , , . . ~
rive* sintetions, to take precaution* against el mut of this
nature; and I apprehend it will he'found that lit liutratee
are empowered, on any reasonable apprehension pf milli-
tilted felony, to Wear ilk special constables. - I net, how.
ever, quite reedy to consider any farther suggestion, liy 4
temporary law to render that power more effected. I
earnestly teem-amend, front my experience, the lituntst local
' awl peruotoil. care ; for I believe that these crimes hate
been frequently Committed through the agency of ono .or
two individual* of respectable appearance—sb retipeetalilo
as to die win snapicion--e-ainconneeted with the tinrith or
village where the fire takes place. Such has been the case
in more situations than one; and I can suggest nothing
hot extreme local vigil.trice and 'associations atnong the in-
habitants, to proteet their tient prOtietty. I again repeat,
that every measure it may be possible for me to adapt,
without local ktiowledge,, shall be adopted.' I an pre-
,
paeed to eonsider any rational law, for any were] purpoue.
Mr. HUME hoped the House would 'allow him to ex-
plain. The Right lion. Ilitronet had certainly inietak.n
or misrepresented what he (Mr. flume) hail add. At
least nothing which hall fallen from hint could ,eve been
. .
stiffieient to slate muchintuition.
Sir R. PEEL did not think that he misrepresented the
'f(oe. Gentleman. lilt he moat have greatly mistioder.
"food hint, if be (Mr. Hume) (lid not say that q no Act
. ,
of Pet lhontott which they could visa would have any effect
in putting doWn the iliseffeetion, 'unless it were aecotn-
paiiied by eoncestiona.e ~
:sir. lIIJIIIE eald that it' was not the find time that
$ ieetlemen heal aitrilmeil to hint language which he had
' iiii.o. used, awl itte.anioge which, he had never intended to.
ViitiVey, 110 Vitali! lint '-iintirntly *NSA by whilst words'
were' p ut itt his ttlfiuth iviiich he bud never thought of
toiiiiv;, lie; Wiailil repetdwilat the Right Ilon. Baronet
Ltd sititot.ol.:,illka. ' "iliUitil lila ti no Aet of Paha-
b,,,ltt WOUlti kettklitvictlitilliesiutiefactien of the eat-nary,
,tali' tftitlariVrlll rii wipeere tleterminatism to re.
!r. ti „ -Ain* ,t,. asiothy,!.4 Oiloriteoance the br-
e it". 40, 0 . , ,404 itleilit'itie Minietera thrill.
1
(
, .
lean, 1,,,4,,, , . ••
Sir Or ETr AA. minen tiny intentien to•mierepreuent
ii
the 'menage air, ,iii. !trendier for- Middlt.sex, or to put
A.. , , . ,
,t false (4, 411 li tar cpristrdLtlni; upon it. If the Ilion
rileittlennee.Vltil t 1 tyttens of Ile. li ta mil trite to be put
down, he t. ir . 'Peet) fnuat'i.ety that de, elperyations Of
the thin. tivrorit'inttlis were but little ealellated for that
etri:et, and it'. re, lead, ill-timed. ' ' •
Ir. If. SUMNER 'Rail, that with respeet to the Obser-
vitione male Ity the Hon. Msother for Sartey (Mr. Deni-
soil), he felt hound, 'as a M igisteite of that eonitty, to state
that lilt aids feeling' AN trOt4tTeatiori' eXisted amongst the
Peasantry. I. did not believe that any tit the uubjecto
minded to lit unntlier (fort. Grentleinait (die Member fur
, ~
Aiiihileeex) hail any influent:oolton their minds. i On one
oecasion wide!' cume touter his (Mi. 11. Simnel's) own
olteervatiou, this hilliettine, piiiiple of the neighlomilnuel
were all usisioue to give esuistanee to the titincen of their
}tower.
• Ilia object, in the inquiry which lie had jo-t
seethe was to atieertain whether, Ott AA occasion when
there exiutesl tenoned& geolinilit for apprebeiteitur that iii.-
thief wile (fatigued, the Ittegistrates- would be justified in
Adopting batting measure* of preceutiott ?—(Hear.)
fair ; . •
R. I,EF,L said that he must again occupy the at-
eention of the Honed, for the aihjeet- was of greet and iii.
tweditte inenirtaties. There was lane etivantage in know-
.. ing.what the law on tie' subject really` was. s The Act
parsed in the first year of his late Majesty, the let George
IV.; cep, al, Inereaeed the power of Maglitrates in ap-
pointing special` ermatehles. erbi Act iesid--..“ In all cases
in which it shall be made to appear, by inforinetion on
oath of bouselielders, that any tumult, riot. or fact of vin.
kiwis has taken place, or iii' likedy lit take place, and mey
reiteunably be apprehended, the lifiagietrittee Ivey call (moo,
by precept in writing, any householders or. (where residing
within their respective divisions, or in the neighbourhood
thereof, for such a time and in such a inenner es the said
Jnutieee Shall think necessary for the preiservation of the
puldic peace ; stiti Justices of the Session truly order allow-
anima; tube mete to oust special em it:gilts ;" and the Aix
went ins to enable ;Magistrates to charge such alloteatte.li
tlptat the county rates. It might, perheps, be deuirahle to
extend that. Art still further, arid he sigattlil be ready to
propose any itlteration oldie late that was nessetear).
A MitAntelt, whose name iii' could -not learn, nettle a
few itiatitiiide observations front the Opposition Benefit*
Air J. E. IIItY.DGES addreosed the Rouge, urging diet
England expected every man to dr) his duty. The Hem
.Member *peke at some length, hat hit tVol.a totally inaudible
in. the Gallery, from the coughing and other interruptions
With whiel; lie was received. .
CIVIL I.IST.
The CIIA.IsiCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved that the House do reitotie itself int() a Committee
of the whole Flow urns the Civil List,
The, Sate Kea lieving left tile Char, ' .
Sir lIIENItY PARNELL said Ito slioniti move en
amendment to the vote. If over Minister of the Crown
laid before that Ilium a statement fur a grant of won y
that required an examination by a %sleet Cknronittee, it
• - wee the propteial noW male by the Right Hon. Gentleman
with reference to the Civil list. Ile (Sir H. Partied)
hail pail all the attention in his power to the
;speed, end
%statement of the Right Hon. Oentletroin, and lit' wits tit-
telly unable to comprehend them'. Since the Right Hon.
Gentleman's moth*, lie had studied Ind attatemeot with the
maned care, both. mute out in conjunct's* tvith several
lion. Member* of that floutoi, who were eeksiootheepiej „„
ell vides to be the most competent to waderutand abject. at
slii• native ; and he had, moreover, read with the UtMOtt
ealititol ilia pepere whielt lied been exhibited the, morn-
frog, loot he satiabl not, either front bis 4WD abilities or with
' . the esetetaliee a thow tif 'l4iv friends, understand the pro.
.; . positions, of the Right Him: Gentleinan• (the Chenesillor Of
the Exehisqner).---f ileer, 'Lew.) Ile doubted inuelt wile.
thee any man lit England undesetnoil the Right Hon,
Ihntlermatee atatementa ; and If the If. Horn Gentle-
, att nderetieel them himeelf, vet y auto ter tree that he
M u
~e4nl4 du it °illy be jiteatta which bad 'lint been imp rt(tl
to that Home. The et ete inents were so defective—day
were we utterly ineoilbl4,tent-.-,-*Lat no man in that tiorise
/void form any notion whether the saYilli weto wait the
Right [fop. Geo ttionito hail aided them) or Ifthey were, that
it War tentily imposeible to say in What or hot", 4,t,y were
. - oliectuth-.4llintr. heite.) fie would CattiltletlCA I.Vitat tr:iie
flight 114 A. 4'.ietlttattla4`ts hisl44Cs.c end bite lieeffeeted that
s 4 a Vit4i one butaired lind orld thuineted pounds, which
14, Pts,l4'o4sti tn Wet 1.19 *,,Littl not tzottipteiteted, for no
ststenteut of liqUio)l, that hit haft 1/1/41r Oittietfatil Si 0 matt)'
.41volvol, (Inland, and unintelliginte.—(ltear, hear.)-,-
111•0 dlifienity wa* to &tinder where thesaving ),- 1,
end his twat diffieolty wita to o,4aceive Why thei4Litittnt"; 't);f
nth'', 'ping aftta,p4l4c4taka. 'OW illiiht HAIL tiae titi i'k
h n
ad ottie.the subject ei)tripitni by siepar-eeitte the t.,,•,i,i1"
,ii,:l.
~,f Eaftl ititi aria 1,;,.,i4.1d.tit1. —WM, ntit Mitent sWitil ti:i., fte
had ~fleeted it still wither complexity liy his divison aye,
siilijeets into clasuea. Ile (Kir ii.,,Tat 'telt) hail put own%
together, mid buil tried them by ortogy ettlettlAtiktat, nor,
t t., ...,....-. ”,,ti•d, /do: ik ...dinF,-,ti

above 91,000/. ' Something had been stated about dedue, i
tions with reference to fees, to the- twelvepenny deduc-
tions, and to other duties," such as the land tax, and by
these statements it hal been contrived to give tin appear-
sof saviiii4s where cone existed. Tftiovas a delusion
on the country land it was not a very wise delusion, as
it Might have been anticipated that it wool& he foreeen
and expo.ed. Next, with respect to the pensions; ;they
were reductil only in form, By tithing of the twelve-
penny dolnctions, the revenue toss reduced :in a greater
proportion then the saving effected by oily reductionswhich had been made in the pensions. If be was wrontt
in this statement, Itutrtightlinui Cientletaturwatt• *lone: to
Ito ieprottelied with error; for, as far, as his uceOunts
could be unfferstood, they led to these infamies. li,
hail beetr:u.maxim that'; when any disputed point could
he reduced, to a question of figui es, all disputes or zap-
ments would and, for figures Could not err. Ve &I-
li:rent, however, was it with Treasury or Exchequer rith-
mole, for 'of all subjects this was the most ;winkle ve of
error, Confusion, and contradiction. Of the 8' 000/.
fallen in as a saving upon the Duke of' Clarence's Unw-
ept*, it could not be said that it was any saving tii n the
Civil List, T his.was Manifest, for ' that ,ulhiwan e had
I
never been charged upon, the Civil List mat, it had lways
.been charged npon, and paid mit of, the' Consolidated ,Fitud.
On this subject there could not by any possibility he an)
mistake, end why, therefore,,,bad the:Bight Hon. 4ientle
roan made this mis.statement. By putting to tlit, Civ
List what he knew belonged to the Consolidat,d Enna, I
had made a saving
.upon the Civil List appeir nun4e th,
it really was by 38,000/. When he saw such erdwa ;
trodured ion an account upon points so palpable, Ilse I
a right to suppose that there Were many ether errors of
11.,
had a description, in parts of the account that wee u
complicated, and, Ile must add, unnecessarily comp iea
h
flow the pretended saving of 52,000/„ tinder the en
" Ciiil Contingencies," lied been effected, lie (Si 1 I
Varnell) cotiLl not understand. Another saving wap /
under the brid of pensions itt Ireland. Ile was exitr
doubtful of the fact, and it Might he altegetheit
founded as the alleged saving of the Duke of Clit
allowance. As to the reductions calculated upon i'
ing in of pensions, it was extremely unlikely ti
public would have any benefit a all under this hei

Oen WS
ilie full-
)itt the
itl. lle

couldliave no hesittition ie saying that the House oug.
net to vale 970,000/. A year, upon the confidence of sets,
statements as bad been laid before it by the Right Hgn.Gen,
tleman opposite. He had no wish whatevei to makenny
deletions from the Civil Li.t hut what were acknowledged
to he proper ; nor had he any desire whatever to diminish
a single charge which weed(' limit the comforte of the
Monocle, or decrease the dignity of the Crown. 1 Gf the
eight chums proposed by the Bight lion. Geotlemin, only
three bore any relation to the persomel 'intere.4 of the
Crown, These amounted to the annual sum of 460,0001.,
and even in this Were included many expellees not Xtreei ing
the comforts of the Sovereign, and totally extrinsic to the
dignity of his Cronin: But in this large sum were in-
eluded nanny expenses of a common charaeter, and of just
:the same nature with others which were annually audited
and voted by that Howie, and for which the annual autho-
rity of that House was very properly required. The pies-
thin that very strongly pressed upon his mind was, whether
the representatives of England, Just returned to that House,
with their promises to the people fresh upon their lips,
would vote away such an immensely Urge sum of money
ppm) iuenntprehvnsible accounts, and without inquiry.--
(Cheers.) Could the repreeentatives of England pursue
such conduct, warm us they must be with, their oft-repeated
professions of economy and retrenchment' so' recently made
to the people, end published throughout the World ?
( Heer.) He would go further, and say, that the examina-
tion by a Comenittee which lie proposed, if disag4ealile to
Majestyte Ministers, was perfectly agreeable to the King
liiineclf.--(Hear.) It was too much thnt party a million
of money should be voted far 'the Civil List imenediately
on the meeting of a new Parliament, and without any
previous inquiry. With regard to the salaries of the
llottschuld, be hail every disposition to Retake a
liberal
provision, and should not object to do all that Could
be expected to uphold the dignity of the CroWn iu a
becoming mnnner. Thin class of pensions he believed to be
a matter of the utmost, impotence. Thenmount of pensions
charged on the English Civil List was 74.000/. ; upon the
Irish Civil List 40,0001., and on the Civil List for Seotleeeil
25,0001. Thus it was proposed to vote away 189,0001.
permanently on account of pensions charged open the Civil
List for the entire reign. This was a subject that deinanded
the most *eruptible's inquiry. At the moment when the
oonutrravai 'culled upon to sustain this mount of charge
'ln the Shape of pensions on the Civil List, we were already
paying annually a emu of no less than 6,150,0001, on ac-
count of pensinies, inoluditsg ltif-pay. With this fixed
charge upon the public, the Chancellor of:the, Exchequer
Rimmed that 189,0001. should henhargahle on the Civil
List for eeneions. Was this a matter to be lightly passed
over? With regard to the class of Foreign Ministers, it
appeared that the reduction in the Civil List amounted to
27,0001: ; but there was still a stun of 186,000/. tti he
veld annually to Foreign Ministers from the Civil List.
'He thonglit there was room for further reductions under
this heath At all events, he objected to voting away large
stuns of peddle money without inquiry. With regard
to the Civil List of Ireland, lie" complained- that there
Was in. such thing as a Parliamentary inreetigation of
it.:-no inrloii y had liven mule on the subject before a
Committee of the House. Under the head of Sealthetal
'a tem of 51,0001 wits included, which required, explana-
tion. 109,0001.• was granted as the Civil List, of Scot-
land, in lieu of hereditary revenues of the Croivin, given
up in that countiy. But the Clown expended this sum,
and the hereditary revenues also ; for out of the mealtime
sum of 18-1,0001. her revenue, only 20,0001. had
found its way into the Exchequer. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer had attempted to justify the Civil List now
proposed, by referring to the Civil List of 1820, and
stating that Butt hell given satisfaction to the Parliament.
It Wes with surprise he had heard the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen'teevertiou on this point, for he was a Member of
the House at the time, and well recollected how stre-
nuously the Civil List of 1820 haul been opposed. That
Civil List was founded on the report of the Committee of
1815, which went upon the expenditure of the three moat
eetravagant years that could be selected. Let the Right
Hou. Gentleman recollect that 157 Members had divided
itt a minority against the Civil List of 1820, which was
400,000/. or 500,0001. above the Civil List adopted in
.1790, on the accessioned George 111. The lino. Baronet
`proeeetled to argue, thet:as prices had fallen since lieo,
pbe ivil List should have been reduced at least 'lOO,OOO/.
Ischia' its present amount. If the Civil List of .1820 had
not' been a most Pttrevugunt one, we should never have
gone through 'die late reign WilhOut a debt being created,
so enormous was the expenditure of the.public money. AA
to the'praCtiaa of keeping anaceount of tint expellees wore
jtnnudittely connected the personal comfort and dig-
nity sal' the Monarclo—saa to mixing up these expenvetel
with paw items of nationel expeoditure, be ettth (41
disapproved of- ay. plan, and thought ihe Right
Hon. Gentlemen'a reasoning in support of it incorrect.
The Right Hon, Gentleman sod, " what advantage would re-
suit to the country if these matters were eeparatetl?" Now '
this was net the mode in which to meet the objection. As
the present pcnetiee was objected to, it wale fur the Chan.
eellor of the Exelie4ner, to slow the ndventage of keeping
things eta (WAWA in theist- titanic mixed up together.--
(Hear.) The Right Hon, Gentiewn could offer no good
moon for keeping them together; his own nrecnice in see
paeeting io twiny expenses from the Civil List we* itself s
p ,
roar than be should have curried the principle farther, and.
confined the Civil bird exclusively to the expenditure Of
the Sovereign.--( Hear.)) 411 that, the {Memento of tile
gxcbequer could say in defelime,of the present mode alike.:
eceding was, that itthad always been the pr, tiee he former
Civil Lists. in his opinion this was ,ate tipunnput
Against continuing ciaiieratt,tice, He took upon haneelf to
say, that whenever a relta4Pnt of ilattfla was referred
to, it ought to he -elonened and voided, eethee than fel-
:Wend, .for it was by such preetieee our t evettieo hp!) hen
rendef4 no high, and our public debt SO anarniaaS, as
they' both wt,44, Was not this: a pouf that these vac-
tioa were had ?—(fieo;, hear.) lie held, that it WOlll.l
ire Eno small advantage that their,- should be no Mistunler.
standing in the country as to this stun :3/4711441 Ilia Majesty
Actually,rectiNsql for the support of the digre4 of the
Crimp. eattree duo could exist no tuisunderstainlii.l, ,
in Pediment en 4,4-1014100; 144 would the Chaneeller
of the Erxeheepsee 'eat.,thet ,the ttablto not to be
equally informed -1 of oh*
be to leave tho country comparatistely it) ,6,0 119
tof
iviotkir his Meleety received 1,000,0004 or 4,80,00/. '7!
Resides, very thing that did not really oppeittnielo ti;st
erupeno of site l6ieo dignity were separated from the Cl-
we should Wee eireny of the items now included
in it, anti which were agreedto 04149 reign, fulmar hc-
ea, the House, where they. would be terlies,%.tc,trevi,ital.
For instance; we could then .coneider ,froto time to I:,ee
the expenditure et i' -per Foreign Ministers. Again, emits*
the expenses referred to tev,i4e',:eptreteel in the nulncer sulf-
gestoll, it was utterly impuesiletethei. tke publie accounts
elleuld be ;I opt after a proper system ;` for Vwe unida_
,Pillimint* for (440 tivo,pwiroes out, of varioue 'ditie:treoe.
funds, how trothd we expeiest let have our accounts tuanagda*
in a plain awl 1nti41440 moue?. hear,) The
-present Aysttnt of taking a little met 404 (end end a little
out of another, not only led to greet ohscurity in 'the
bit Ell7eounti, but tended it; modnce considerable ituorgen-
tAticol if, the publie expenditure, of dill', rent rtit ti 4
s —unseen to expluio tipa !Jule was 11)

such thing existing as a clear and connected account of the
public expenditure. of the country, and contrasted our prac-
tice in this respect, with that of France, where mann' s
were regularly ‘poblished to the great advantage of the com-
munity ; such a mode of proceeding, idferded the most ef-
fectual cheek upon a wasteful expenditure The :Hoe.
Baronet next proceeded to refer to the Duchy of Pmees
ter, and quoted Burke, who, in spealcieg of the subject,
observed that the Duchy was probably worth 4,0001. a
year to the Crownin revenue, and ,49,0001. in influence.
He was convinced that if the revenues of the Crown Duchies,
(there were once five of them) %erre 'Auld, considerable
benefit would be derived to .the public. But 'a Con:.
mithat was the Limper body to investigate thin and °tbs!'
tedejiets connected with the Civil List. •It might lie
objected. that hitherto no Committee had been appointed to
examine into the Civil List at the commencement of a new
reign. If other Parliaments had voted away the public
money without due investigation, that afforded no arg&"
went for the conduct of the present Renee of Commons.
—( Hear.) Besides, Parliament did examine into the
present state of the Civil List by Committees open former
occasions—the last in Mb.. Itt conclusion, he begged those
who felt dispoSed to supPOrt the motion for the appoint-
ment of u Select Committee, with which he should con.
elude—he begged them to believe; that hi the event of the
appointment of a Committee, in his opinion every thing
ought to be, and doubtless would be, done, to support the
personal comfort and dignity of the most popular Monarch
that had ever sat upon the threne of these realios.—(Hear.)
If we went into a Committee, we should give the country
a pledge of the sincerity of our wishes to diMinish' the
pUhlic burdens, He entreated the Members of the House
to consider this, and to reflect how much they owed to
those who returned them, and how intimately the national
tranquillity, and be might Add the security of the timarehe,
were connected with the course which Patliatnent should
take.—(Cheering.) The Hon. Baronet concluded by
Moving an arriendment to the effect, that a Select Com-
mittee be appointed to take into eonsideration the esti-
mates, accounts, and statements presented by command of
his Majesty with respect to the Civil List.—(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
notwthstanding What bud fullers froM the Hon. Baronet,
who had just sat' down, he still adhered to the opinion
which he originally entertained when the subject of the
Civil List was first submitted to the House, and which he
then expressed, namely, that the proper • course was for
Government to present to the House estimates of the pro-
posed expenditure and arrangement of the Civil List,
rather than to delegate that dtity, Ind the responsibility
which it involved, to a Select Committee. He adhered to
that opinion, not merely fee ruse such had been the usual
practiee het etofore, hilt beitause, even in reference to what
the Hun. Gentleman considered schemes of economy, be
was prepared to maintain that a Select Committee was nut
calculated to efli ct any economical ()lied, which it was not
perfectly competent to time House, looking at the etetementa
and estimates laid before them, to effect.:--(Hear, hear.)
The lion. Barimet had not very distinctly stated, to the
House whether he wished the Committee, which he pro-
posed to appoint, to he vested with power to examine
wit-
nesses and papers as to the several items of the accounts
laid before it, or whether he desired to adhere to the prac-
tice previously adopted when Committees had been ap-
pointed with reference to debts incurred upon the Civil
List, namely, that the accounts should be submitted to
'he Committee fur examination, but without power to gr
to so extensive an investigation, or to call for papers ar

persons. The Linn. Gentleman had not very distinctly
stated which of these two courses he meant to suggest.
Sir 11. PARNELL was understood to intimate that
he proposed to appoint a Committee merely possessed of
power to examine the accounts laid before it, but not to
call for witnesses.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.-.-The
Hon. Gentleman now stated that it was not his intention
that the propooed Committee sheaf have power to exa-
mine persons with respect to the items and accounts laid
before it, but merely that it should report its opinion Oh
the Civil List. Then he asked the Hon. Baronet, not
only in reference to the common sense of the matter, but
in reference to opinions expressed by authorities which the
floe. Member must revere, because he had long acted with
the individuals who had expressed those opinions---he asked
the lion. 'Martinet what additional means or fueilitieS he
could devise to effect a public service by Kuehn Committee
which he could not already avail himself of by an exemie
nation of the documente how upon the table of the House
—an eceinioation which it was perfectly competent to the
Hon. Berimet, owl every Member of the House, to make?
indeed, ha recollected that upon former occasions gentle-
own upon the other side of the House had said it would be
much better to have papers anti accounts connected with
the Civil List upon the table for the' satisfaction of the
House, than to refer those documents to eCommittee, be-
fore which an CX811111146011 of witnesses phould be denied.
He referred particularly to the sentiments expressed by the
late Mr. Tierney en this subject, who, as the lion. Hero
net would readily admit, was one of the most active, ine
telligent, and acute Members 'of the House, in reference
to all matters of thieleinuL Indeed, he (the Chaneellott
of the Exchequer) thought he had come down provided:
with an extract front Mr. Tierney's speech upon the sub-
ject, but be found he hiol omitted to do so ; however, he
very o ell remembered that' Mr. Tierney raid, 44 lie would
prefer leaving the. impels in' the hands of Membere to
the appointment of a' Coluinittea without power to call
for persons and documente.".....(Hear.) This was not
merely an 'argument used in the course of debate with a
view to a particular purpose. Mr. Tierney acted in con-
sonance with those sentiments, and' when appointed upon
CoMmittee vested with such powers as were propme3 to
be Conferred in the present inetance, he refused to act, and
threw up his seat in it. Such then was the opinion en.
tertained, expressed, and acted on by political friends of the
Hon'. Baronet on the occasion of former disetteaiona of A
terturifoltnilar to the present. The Hon. Gentleman did
not act in conformity with those opinions when he brought
forward his amendment---(Hear)--and he now put it to
tire lion. Baronet's comfortr to say, supposing that instead
of laying otimetee of the Civil List before the Houle
al lie did,' he haul stood there' the' mover for a Committee
such us the Hon. Gentleman proposed. Ile put it to the
Home, whether, in such a case, he should nut have been
told by Members'opposite that lie was acting in that way
with u view ,to delude the House and the country, to cover
a desire for an extravagant Civil List under the appoint-
ment of a poweilesa Committee, and to prevent instead of
promoting inquiry ?_(clear. ) No doubt he should have
been'inet with that argument, and with those reproaithes,
if he haul coneeeted • to the appointment of a Committer
without power to enter into an effective examination of 1
the subject, instead of ;submitting the details of the Civil
List to the Hoare in such a manner that Members etould '
have opportunities of aulgesting redutitions and main.
redone, as the Bill proceeded in its respective stages.
Ile said, th n, he did net think it consistent with Ms ,
duly us a Minister of the' Crown, nor, Weed,
rive to a proper examination of the subject, to model
to the Ilemanrable Baronet's modem—(lleer, hear.) But
let us see whatit Was that the Hon. Gentleman prepared
to delegate to "a Conunittep, without power to still for anti'
examine persons, palsers, and records. Not content with
delegating to a Committee due constituted to go. into the
whole iuf the ereimatet of the Civil Litt, the Hon. Bs.
ronet Wished it to code to a decision as to the best-mode
of keeping the poblic account's. At least- the lion. Gen-
Oremarksan's remarks seemed to 'tend that wiry. Arid not only:
would •the'thin. Barnett have the Committee to invistigster -
the various branches of the Civil List, hut he wished it to
go into other Metter*, end 81804 such to consider whether
it might not be proper iii sell the hands belonging to the
Duchy of Lancaster, and place the produce of the sale to
credit of the 'public account. Was it possible that r Com-
iiiittep going into these extensive and difileult inquiries,
yet Without power to institute a' euffotient (rumination,
should ever effect army good? Was it conceivable that
its debates arid discussions sheehi ever name .to any
seatiefectoty met . or that they - would not.be so
prolonged end &Leytd as to threw impeuliments'in the
,e,ie ill teleg. !e, pilot be the levies of the Otiose to tl!`
i.,,,,htes with a vier,: to the ioilitte storivenience ns •
in reticence to the dignity of the tele,w4
the lion. Gentleman's, arguments for a COMMittee were
maw), heeed epee the 'statements made in the com-
i-tetirement of his veva. He told the lionise that he
could (iil:!nver, on the permed of the paper': laid:before
111 the prevent;
the HiMee, wGre die 85;000L
cempared with the preeedieg F.,;;Vil List, was to be
feete,!, !Irving irr his hand, the 'paper', 'corroded-1g 43 an-
corott of "hap transfers least hem 'no.* made from the
014
iftlet as foeinerl;/ geapted to' his rate Muijesty' to other'
ekelAir. Ilart nJt #10011044 ,1 intioireel Whether tidefees proposed weee'pet t he daunted from
the saving of 85,001. If Et;!,40;:1 Iltut
to page of accounts and te,tiruetee of -the Ltieil Liirt;"
what, lie would find the whole imprint of the income of
Meje• ty George pi,;. stated at ',VI ,6821, ; and
duet, 11,44i,v,,,i ex' ole slurries' firini Whielo the, Civil 'List
oud rln'herttris...e redaction of items, by the
s,onyl,nit rill:ewveletre
not
ravings,
sruiss:eeeel to other
In Enelatik n hllBl 'of 1.08,90/. was transferred i
'ln 'Tref:aid, 13i198t , the, deduction of eller& fraud
the herolitary'reveiont Seotland was
104 W; making:
it total'frotrefitiricif the Civil see relieved of 160,18.14.
But, es already. ;nutted; there; dot-tuvitgli; huit °V"
t .tutJ,„„:6l ;eel in' the th'eount tiso reailee wwrist#errfre'"`:
or And p, 47,Aing'irakeN 14 tea dews.' . It upp,,teto
that the whole onto ctijo?ed his
pkllenti ;from. the