The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-17 00:00:00

COAL TAX.

Lord WHARNCLIFVE presented a petition from the
dyers and manufacturers of Norwich, against the tax on
seaborne coals. This was a most unjust tax, and when so
many were taken off, it was most unfortunate that this
was not among the number. The tax was, besides, most
enormous in its amount, as compared with the price of the
article at the mouth of the pit. He was himself a coal-
prietor, but he thought the subject on every account called
for attention. The petition was referred to the Coal Com-
mittee above stairs.

-
Earl STANHOPE presented a petition from a certain
hundred of the county of Norfolk, representing the dis-
tressed state of the petitioners, and praying for a reduction
of taxation, and for au inquiry into the causes of their dis-
tresses, and for relief.

Lord KING presented a petition from a district in
Gloucestershire against the beer tax, and also against
the bread tax. In answer to an observation of Lord Stan-
hope, he said that he might soon take an opportunity of
bringing the question of Free Trade in Corn before the
House.

The Earl of GLENGALL presented a petition from a
place in Cavan, and from another place in Ireland, against
the extension of the poor laws to Ireland.
All these petitions were laid on the table.
IRISH POOR LAWS.

Earl DARNLEY rose, according to notice, to call the
attention of the House to the most important subject of the
adoptiob of a system of poor laws in Ireland. The poor
in England, it was well known, were entitled to relief,
and he would certainly recommend that some law should
be adopted to afford a compulsory relief to the sick, the
aged, and the infirm in Ireland. He saw his Noble Friend
(Lord Limerick) on the other side prepared to take the
alarm, and to give his decided opposition to any project
of the kind, as he did many years ago, when he took occa-
sion to call the attention of their Lordships to this subject.
He must admit, that on that occasion his proposition was
not particularly well received. But since that time a con-
siderable change had taken place in public opinion with
respect to their poor laws ; and political economists in
England, Scotland,.and Ireland, as well as others, had
come over to his opinion. He was far, however, from
meaning to advocate the introduction into Ireland of the
same system of poor laws as prevailed in England ; but
when lie could prove, as he had offered to do on a former
occasion, that people in Ireland were dying of want in
the streets and highways, it was high time to adopt some
method of compulsory relief for the aged, the sick, and the
helpless. How far the compulsory relief should go, be was
not then prepared to say. It might, perhaps, be asked
why he did not move for a Committee of Inquiry on the
subject, as had been done in the House of Commons. But
he could add but little information to what their Lord-
ships already had on the subject, and particularly those
who repreeented the Peerage of Ireland. These represen-
tatives were mush more able to afford information to their
Lordships than he was. What he was most anxious for
was, to learn whether the Noble Duke at the head of the
Administration bad had time to turn his attention to this
most important subject, and whether any measures were in
contemplation for being pained during the present Session
for the relief of the Irish poor? He did not think it expe-
dient at present to move for a Committee; but in case
the Committee of the House of Commons should not bring
forward the requisite information on the subject, he would
be at liberty at any time to move for a Committee of this
House. At present, many Noble Lords who would be the
rnost useful Members of such a Committee were employed
on other Committees, and, in the meantime, he would he
content if the Noble Duke would state what measures the
=Ministry had in view for the relief of the Irish poor.
The Duke of WELLINGTON, in compliance with
the desire of the Noble Earl, stated that the Ministers had
it not in contemplation to introduce at present any thing
like a genera! system of poor laws into Ireland. But at
the "same titnelte bad to . state to their Lordships that the
state of Ireland had' engaged_ the particular attention of
his Majesty's Government, and several measures were in
contemplation Well' either directly or indirectly had for
their -object, and he trusted would have the effect of
affording r@ief to the aged and infirm, and the sick, and
of giving employment to the able-bodied poor. In the first
place, there was a measure for the relief of the labouring
poor by having them employed by the Grand Juries.—
Again, there was a measure for the care of natural chil-
dren, although that was one which would require a great
deal of revision and caution before it was passed into a law.
Another was the providing of the city of Dublin with the
means of creating an hospital for the distressed, in the
same manner as means were provided for that object for
other counties in Ireland, by the 58th of the late King.—
The state of Ireland most certainly required the most at-
tentive consideration of his Majesty's Ministers, and of
Pattament, and he hoped the subject would meet with
that attention which its importance deserved.
The Earl of LIMERICK could not pretend to give their
Lordships much information, but any that he could give
would not be in favour of the establishment of the poor
laws in Ireland. His Noble Friend had truly stated that
he had started the subject same years ago in this House, on
which occasion he was supported by the petition of one
man, who, having nothing else to do, thought proper to
turn his attention to the state of Ireland ; and lie recol-
lected that the Petition was received with a loud laugh.
But note his Noble Friend said that the political economists
and others had come over to his opinion. This was owing
to the march of intellect, he supposed ; but neither by
march of intellect, nor by political economists, nor by any
other influence, would he be persuaded to support any wild
schemes of innovation. There were too many of them
afloat already; and whether the line of conduct which he
would feel it his duty to pursue should be palateable or un-
paltteable, he would oppose them. If his Noble Friend
had proposed to appoint a Committee, he should certainly
have opposed the motion; for if that course were adopted,
it would excite undue expectationa on the one hand, and
great alarm on the other. Ireland was at present fast ad-
vancing in agriculture and trade, and in the accumulation
of capital; but if the system of the poor laws was intro-
duced there, everything would tumble down, and leave all
on the same hopeless level of poverty.
The Earl of AIALMESBURY really thought that his
Noble Friend should have moved for a Committee. He
did not thick that it was always the best way for their
Lordships to take their information from the other House,
and sometimes the information could not be bad in time.
For instance, when the. new police measure came before
the House—a most important measure, even in a Consti-
tutional point of view, but a good one as it turned out—
he that a message be sent to the Commons to
desire that they would send up the evidence taken on the
subject before their Committee, but it did not come till
the second reading of the Bill. His Noble Friend had
said that there were other Committees, particularly the
East India Committee, now sitting, which occupied the
attention of many of their Lordships. But theme were
surely. sufficient numbers among their Lordships fer a
Committee on this subject also. And if it should be desir-
able that those who sat on the East India Committee should
sit en this Committee also, why should they not sit on
alternate days? There was one point which hail not yet
been touched upon, and that was the great expense in
several parts of England of passing Irishmen to the coast,
and sending them to their own country. There was one
county in the Walt of England in which thousands of
Irishmen were passed in this manner. The expences of
this mode of passing English paupers were repaid by their
places of settlement, but there was no fund for repayment
in Ireland ; and yet there was no reason why the Irish
landlords should not reciprocally pay that expense as well
as the English landlords. That was a point well desert-
ing of investigation. He did not mean to say that th'e
poor laws should be established in the same shape as in
England, particularly 'as to.the mode of the appointments, ,
and undue assessments. But the poor law system, ab-
stractedly considered, was a good one. lle hoped a Corn-

mittee would be appointed ; and that the East India Com-
mittee may sit on alternate days, as had been done by the
Lunatic and Wool Committees.

The Earl of LIMERICK observed, that while some
talked of the expence of passing Irishmen, others proposed
the erection of gaols along the western coast, for the depo-
siting ot their poor brethren of Ireland. Some had even
objected to the importation of cattle from Ireland—of which
sex he:did not know. Perhaps they would object even to
the importation of bulls, as well as of Irishmen.

The Earl of MALMESBURY did not mean to flatter
the wit o f his Noble Friend, but certainly it was a heavy
cxpence passing these Irish travelling gentlemen—(A
laugh)—and it was fitting that the Irish landlords should
defray it.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAAI was extremely glad that
the Ministers proposed that the Irish Grand Juries were to
be made to employ the Irish poor, for the operations of
these Irish Grand Juries had been long the most barefaced
of jobs. As to the general question, he agreed that a sys-
tem of Poor Laws was necessary, and that the vice was in
the administration.

The Earl of WICKLOW agreed with his noble relative
as to the general inexpediency of appointinc, a Committee
on this subject, but there were reasons which induced him
to think a Committee ought to be appointed. One of
these was that the Committee was already formed in the
House of Commons; but whether the House granted a
Committee or not, he trusted that if any measure should
be proposed to'Parliament as the result of the labours of
the Committee in the House of Commons, their Lordships
would meet it with a fair, deliberate, and unprejudiced
consideration: He wished especially that some measure
should be adopted to remove from the mind of the English
agriculturist the belief that the introduction of a system of
poor lass into Ireland would prevent the immigration of
the labourers from that country to this. Ile doubted
much whether that immigration was an evil; but suppos-
ing that it was, he would ask whether the introduction of
poor laws into Ireland was likely to prevent these immi-
grations ? He must say that he was far from anticipating
that such would be the result.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM assured the Noble Earl
he had not recommended any such thing ; for he had not
yet made up his mind on the subject.
The Earl of WICKLOW observed, that to attempt
such a measure would be like attempting to transplant the
forest of Hampshire into the rocks, bogs, and wilds of
Connemara. There was another objection to the system
of the poor laws. They tended to seal up the sources of
private benevolence, and he was sure that in that respect
they would be mischievous in their effects in Ireland.
The Marquis of SALISBURY trusted that some mea-
sures would be adopted to relieve the distresses of the Irish
poor. He could not agree with those Noble Lords who
thought that the emigrations of the-Irish labourers were
not a grievance ; he thought them a great grievance.
These people came over and worked at very low wages,
and in a great measure took the bread out of the mouths of
the English labourers, and that at a time when the
English labourers would otherwise be able to make
enough money to save themselves during the worst parts
of the year from applying for parochial relief.—(Hear,
hear. )—At such times these Irish labourers came over,
subsisted for a few weeks before the busy time came on,
either by beggary or petty robbery, and afterwards threw
themselves on the parish to be passed back again to Ire-
land. He would only add, that if poor laws were to be
established in Ireland, they ought to be more guarded as to
their administration than they were here.
The Earl of LIMERICK said, were the men who de-
fended the country with their blood, and expended their
labour in its cultivation, to be denied the privilege of bring-
ing their labour to the hest market, at a time when they
could dispose of it to the greatest advantage? As to the
statement that these Irish labourers subsisted by robbery,
he denied it in toto.

The Marquis of SALISBURY did not mean to offend
the Noble Earl or the people of Ireland, bnt he supposed
the Noble Earl would hardly take upon himself to answer
for the, honesty of every Irish labourer that came over to
this country ; and the Quarter Sessions attested this fact
that just about the time of their emigrations, the numbers
of petty robberies were Considerably increased.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought no case had
been made nut for a Committee with reference to Ireland.
He trusted our abominable system would never he intro-
duced elsewhere. The emigrations of Irish labourers could
not be prevented by the introduction of a system of poor
laws into Ireland; and it would be most unjust if they
could.

Earl STANHOPE could not lose that opportunity of
protesting against the opinions now expressed as to the
abuses of the administration of the poor laws. The real
cause of the present high amount of poor rates was not the
abuses of their administration, but the want of employ-
►nent for the poor. It was impossible that any mal-ad-
ministration of the poor rates could have increased them
20s. or 30s. an acre, or in some cases raised them to an
amount that was equivalent to a total confiscation of the
land. He thought the cause of this distress imperiously
called for an inquiry. With respect to the introduction of
poor laws into Ireland, he did not think it would prevent
the emigration of Irish labourers here. The best way
to cure the evils of that country was to get rid of a body
of men who were the real causes of the pauperism of that
country—he meant the middle-men of Ireland.
Earl DARNLEY said, that however they might differ
among themselves as to the means, the object of all was
to provide relief for the aged, and the infirm, and the needy
part of the population of Ireland. After the explanation
of the Noble Duke opposite, and with the knowledge that
the subject was in excellent hands in the Committee of the
House of Commons, he should not at present press the
subject further on their Lordships' attention. On the
principle of the matter there could be no question that
poor laws ought to be introduced into Ireland, the only
differences were as to the effects that would be produced.
He should take the occasion presented by the motion of
the Noble Duke on Thursday, to call the attention of the
House again to this subject.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that if his Noble
Relative had attended to that experience which had been
attained by the active Magistrates of this country, he
would be convinced that the payment of wages from the
poor rates was a great evil.