The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-16 00:00:00

merit that the Hoto-e go into Committee on this subject
this day six months.
Mr. HU:',IE seconded the amendment. He considered
that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should have stated
some reason for the course of p, ocecding which he had
proposed to adopt ; but the 1-lon. and Learned Gentleman
hid neglected to do so, and they were consequently called
upon to agree to a vote of money without any
reason been given for their so doing. He did
not object to the adequate payment of good
judges. Ho was satisfied, and would lay it down as a
principle, that to under-pay the Judges was the worst pos-
sible economy. But he would ask, has the country suf-
fered inconvenience in consequence of the low salary of
the judges? Undoubtedly not, as far as they had any evi-
dence at present- He considered that the statement of
the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) was most im-
purmet evidence in favour of his (Mr. Hume's) conclu-
sions, and entitled to great consideration. The late Lord
Advocate, Sir Wm. Rae, had stated, that during the course
of fifteen years' experience he only knew one or two indi-
viduals who had refused Judgeships in consequence of the
lowness of the salary. These persons, in all proba-
bility, c tree under the rule laid down by Sir Robert
Peel, that the salary of the Judges should not be
calcu!ated upon the highest amount of income made at the
Bar, Lett should he such an average income as to make
it an object of ambition for well-informed Members of the
Bar. But there were obstructions, abuses, and forms in the
Courts of Law in Scotland—the Judges there do not act like
the Judges in England, they do not devote the whole of
their time to the public. He found t' at they only sat 105
days in tee course of the year, and on an average not more
than two hours a day.—( Hear, bear.) So that they had
seven months' vacation. Now he (Mr. Hume) would never
consent to an increase of salary until these abuses were
corrected. The sooner these forms were done away with
the better. When they saw nothing of the Judges for
months, the public had just cause of complaint. In Eng-
laud we see what the Judges do, but we do not in Scot-
land. They are also too numerous—there is no man at
the bar who will not admit this:to be the case, except perhaps
be is looking forward to fill a vacancy, and the number
might be reduced if they would have perpetual sittings as
in England. He would also ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, are we in fact at present in a situation to vote
away the public money. He held in his hand a balance
sheet signed E. J. Stanley, by which it appeared that in
1838 the excess of the expenditure over the income
amourted to 1,428,0001., and under these circumstances we
were called upon to vote an increase of salary to the
Judges. It was not fair to be called upon to add to the
salaries of those who already received sufficient to induce
the ablest men at the Bar to accept the office. If the
salaries were not sufficient to induce able lawyers to
accept the office, he (Mr. Hume) would not object
to increase it.—( Hear, hear.) They ought to know
how the proposed increase was to be apportioned. He
understood that the Lord President was to receive an ad-
dition ef 7001. per aneuna, the Lori Justice Clerk an addi.
tion of 6001. per annum, and an addition of 6001. per
annum was to be made to the salaries of those who now
received 2.0001. each, no notice had been taken of Lord
Gillics, but he understood that he was to receive an addi-
tion of 6001. per annum. It was one of the anomalies ofk
that Court that the Judges who ought to have the same
duties to perform had different salaries. In his opinion
that was not right, and before they gave a vote for money
they ought to have the plan of the Government before them,
so that they might know in what way they intended to remedy,
the evils complained of.—(Cheers.) It was a mere gra-
tuitous waste of the public money, the more especially at
a time when the expenditure of the country so much ex-
ceeded the income, and also the more so as there was no
difficulty in obtaining the best talent of the Scottish Bar.
of there existed a Bar 0f:.30, and 10 out of them were
willing to ascend the Bench at the same scale of salary as
had existed since 1810, he thought that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer and the Learned Lord Advocate would
not press for an increase at present.
The LORD ADVOCATE did not think that the
House would tolerate a second speech from him upon the
question. He would therefore leave it where it was.
Mr. ELLICE, jun., was one of those who thought
that the Judges in Scotland were not sufficiently paid, and
he for one was prepared to vote for an increase of their
salaries, and he would be glad also that after a certain
period of service they should receive a larger retiring
allowance. With these sentiments still he could not sup-
port the motion without some explanation from the Learned
Lord of the manner in which it was proposed to make a
better division of the labour. While he was upon this
subject he would take the opportunity of stating, that in
the heat of the debate the other evening, in allusion to the
Learned Lord President, one phrase fell from him which he
deeply regretted.—( Hear, hear.) Since then he was
given to understand that the Learned Lord was upwards
of 80 years of age, and subject to a total prostration of
physical strength. He much regretted that such a phrase
had fallen from him, as he knew that it had given pain
here, and no doubt, before this time, had given pain else-
where. He was but a novice in addressing such an
assembly, and the words fell from him in consequence of
his agitation.—( Hear, hear.) Since that time he had
met with a work that expressly met his views. It spoke
of Judges, and said the time must come when they would
feel the infirmities of age ; they might be honest and ho-
nourable and upright men, but who was to determine the
period at which they ought to retire ? The Crown evi-
dently could not do so, as that would be giving too much
power. What authority then should give them a hint that
it was time for them to give place to a younger man ? He
might be an upright, an honest, and zealous Judge, but
might also be prevented from performing his duty from the
debility of age. He was sorry, he repeated, that the remark
had fallen from him, but at the same time he
felt it to be his duty to bring under the notice of the House
the present condition of the Scottish Bench. He felt bound
to tell the House that its present condition was fast losing
it the confidence of the people which it was so important
to retain.

Mr. AGLION BY hoped he might be allowed to say a
few words, as be was ono of the Committee of 1834, and
he confessed that he went into that Committee with a pre-

judice against granting any more money to the Scottish
Judges, but the examination which there took place, quite
altered his opinion. (Here one of the candles fell over, and
ran down upon the table. One of the Messengers attempted
to put it out, but for some time he was unsuccessful,
which caused much amusement to the Legislators in the
House. The Hon. Gentleman was obliged to stop his
address for some time.) The Judges of Scotland had not
only a very bad advocate, but a very bad light was thrown
upon their cause.—(A laugh.) The evidence given before
that Committee satisfied him, and ought to satisfy the
House that even at this moment it was impossible to com-
mand the best talent at the Scottish bar for the Bench.
That was distinctly stated in the evidence of Sir Wm.
Rae and John Hope, Esq. He trusted that the vote of the
House would that night do tardy justice to an upright and
deserving set of men. Assuming that it was the worst
economy of the country to place the salaries of the Judges
in such a state that they could only command in-
ferior talent, it could neither be satisfactory to
the country nor the suitors, that such a state of
things should exist. In the first place, was the
salary sufficient ? On the evidence before the Committee
he had come to the conclusion that it was not sufficient.
When he found it in evidence that very few of the Judges,
unless they had private fortunes, were able to insure
their lives or keep up their respectability, he must say
that the salary was too low. With reference to the other
point, he must confess that there was great room for even
further improvement in the Courts of Judicature in Scot-
land. He should like to see the duties of the .Judges as-
similated as they were in England. He hoped therefore
that the Government would not hear these complaints
without going on iu the course of progressive reform.
Having that confidence he would not withhold the granting
of the salary. They ought to grant the salary, and then
call on the Government to make the jurisdiction satisfac-
tory to the country.—( Hear, hear.)
_ _ _

Mr. WALL ACE said he was one of those who did
wish to support the motion. He was one of those who
would now oppose it. He had examined into the amount
of money paid to the Judges in the Supreme Court, and
he sound that they and their clerks together received
40,0001. a year, and but for the abuses which existed in
the system there would be no occasion for those clerks who
now cost more than 4,900/. a year.—( Hear, hear.) This,
therefore, was a component part of the salaries of those
Judges as paid by the people of Scotland : 40,0001. a-year
divided amongst them gave 3,0801. to each Judge. Let that
be borne in mind when they were about to divide, whether
4,0001. should be given to these Gentlemen.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Cocker-
mouth said that at a future time he should be ready to
assist in improving the administration of justice. He
begged to call the attention of the Government, and of the
Secretary of the Home Department, to the contents of
Kings and Queens speeches, of late years, as to the
ndministration of justice. If the contents of them had
been fulfilled as regarded England and Ireland, they had
beets neglected as regarded Scotland. What did the
Scottish Judges do ? They attended in Edinburgh be-
tween four and five months in the year ; for seven months
they were at their country seats, like other country gen-
tlemen. In the mean time, what became of the suitors
and the agents for the country? why they were dispersed
three parts of the year in consequence of these Judges
dispersing themselves to look after their pleasures
and amusements.—( Hear, hear.) They might find
every year Scottish Judges going their grand tours
—( Laughter)—and why should they not ? They
had a right, during the four months when they had nothing
to do. They sat for 104 days, for less than two hours each
day. They had been told that it was proper to assimilate
the salaries of the Judges its Scotland to those in Eng-
land ; but how did the Judges in England work ? They
sat six hours a day on the bench for ten months in the
year. Let them do so in Scotland, and he should be ready
to accord to the Judges 3,0001. a year each. It would be
cheap and good economy, then, to give them 3,0001. in
the place of 2,6001. But the old jog-trot system must be
persisted in—the seven months in the year vacation was to
be persisted in. There was a power in Edinburgh which
would overbear the Lord Advocate and the Government.—
(" No, no," from the Lord Advocate.) He was glad to
hear the assertion contradicted, but would judge by facts
and not by words, and he believed there was a countervail-
ing power in Edinburgh that would overbear both the
Home Office and the Advocate.--( Hear.) What be
wanted was a declaration from the House, from the Home
Secretary, and from the Lord Advocate, of the evils of which
he complained, being to be redressed, and then he would
be the first to vote for an increase of salary. He agreed
that when infirmity or old age overtook them, they should
be all Owed to retire on full salaries. He asked for justice.
He asked for labour on the part of the Judges. Their
whole time was purchased by the country, and they ought
not to have the power of going seven months of the
year away from their Courts, distracting the business be-
fore the Court, and sending off every law suit at a fresh
tangent. He should with the greatest satisfaction vote
against the Speaker leaving the chair.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided. The numbers wore—
Ayes 56

Noes .
Majority for going into Committee... —29
The House then went into Committee.
The LORD ADVOCATE said he had been most de

... 27