The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-19 00:00:00

would be a mere mockery. And if the House were not pre-
pared to vindicate its authority, they might burn their Order-
book.—( Hear, hear.) They would be laughed at out of
doors; and if they ever brought any one to their bar for in-
fringement of their orders, would they not be answered, " You
were afraid to touch Mr. Harvey, you could not justify your
o•cn opinion, and you dare not arraign him, though you are
willing to punish me."—( Hear. )
Lord E BRING TON agreed in the oeinion that for the
sake of information the name of the Hon. Member for
Southwark ought to be added, but whilst he agreed in
this opinion, he must at the same time say that he thought
that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had afforded to the house the fullest justifica-
tion for not putting the Hon. and Learned Member on
the Committee: - The Honourable and Leerned Member for
Oxford, and other Hon. Gentlemen, had said, put the
Learned Gentleman upon the Cernmit'ee, and then if he 'tie-
late any privi'ege, g.ve to him the molt condign punishment ;
but what would have been said if his Right Hon. Friend had
pursued such; a course ?- Woeld it not havC been said that
the Government had acted with treachery by putting the
Hon. and Le lined Gentleman on the Committee, and thus.
inducing him to commit the ranee which he knew well he
would do e( Hear, hear),—and by then bringing him to the
bar?—( Hear, hear ) Would not such a course have been
considered most mean, aid would there not have been the
strongest grounds for complaint ?—( Hear, hear.) They had
been told that the House had a, high duty to discharge to
itself; but they had also a duty to discharge to individuals. He
had no wish to speak disrespectfully of the Hon-. Member for
Southwark ; he had no right to impeach his discretion in that
or any other case ; but, after the course which that Hon. Gen-
tleman had taken in- the Committee of the Poor-law, he, for
one, could not consent to his being appointed a member of
this Committee, to publish day by day its ex parte proceed-
ings.—( Hear, heir.) On these grounds he should vote for
the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend, that the number of
the Committee should be limited to 21.
Lord CA STLE RE AG H said the House had consented to
the inquiry into the Pension List, and to that inquiry the
Hon. and -Learned Member for Southwark could bring more
information than almost any other Member, and he (Lord
Castlereagh) could not understand on what grounds it was
that the Noble Lord refused to admit his mine. He saw no
objection to the fullest inquiry into all the pensions. He
feared no ill consequences from the most ample investiga-
tion, and he had opposed the original motion only from a
principle of justice, that the House ought not to rip up old
stories.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) Was
it the searching eye of the Hon. and Learned Member that the
Government feared—did they dread his influence ? He (Lord
Castlereagh) would ask them to let the public have the
benefit of the powerful and searching and acute mind of
the Honourable and Learned Member, and he for one thought
that the Honourable Gentleman would do as much credit
the Committee, and bring as large a supply of facts before li
them, as any Honourable Gentleman whom he saw on the
benches opposite.—( Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. WARBURTON said that if Hon. Members acted on
the principle laid donn by the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would amount to a gene-al
prescription of the - Hon. and Learned Member, nut from
that Committee alone, but from every Select Committee.—
( Hear, hear.) Any Hon. Member might ask the same
question as to any other inquiry ashich any Hon. Gentleman
might institute, or the House might approve. It might be
asked, " Do you intend, if you are placed on the Com-
mittee, to use the means which this may afford you, of pub-
lishing the proceedings in a newspaper, ?"—( Hear, hear.)
And the same answer being given as in this ease, the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman would, as a matter of course, be ex-
cluded. Without meaning to cast any reflection on the Go-
vernment, he certainly thought that the course pursued
was precisely the course which he should have himself taken
if he had wished entirely to exclude the Hon. Gentleman
from the Committee.—( Hear, hear.) If he thought that the
Hen. and Learned Member was, as a men of honour, bound to
give the answer which he had done.—( Cheers ) He had been
asked by the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he would not
obey the order of the House, and whether he would appoint
on a Committee, as in this case, an Hon. 'Member who de•

dared that he would not regard them. Now he had never
known the House run a race with the newspapers relative to
the publication of its proceedings in which it had not been
beaten.--(Hear, hear.) He said, also, " Hear, hear I" He
should like the Hon. Member who cried " Hear, hear!" to
point out any period where the House was a gainer in such a
contest. • Why, the publication of their debates, and of any
portion of their proceedings, was an infringement of the Orders
of the House committed every day; and he justified the publi-
cation and the infringement because they admitted more light
on their proceedings. He had never known any good arise
from any secret proceeding of that House.—( Hear, hear.) He
had never known anything pass even in what was called
a Secret Committee which might not hare been proclaimed
without injury at Charing-cross.—(Hear, hear.) He recol-
lected perfectly well that on one occasion, when a debate took
place in that House with closed doors, his Hon. Friend the
Member for Kilkenny and himself made the best report which
they could ; it appeared in the newspapers on the following
morning; his Hon. Friend and himself had been called to
account ; they had confessed themselves the reporters ; and
on the same principle that they now asked the Hon. and
Learned Member, " Will you agree not to publish the evi-
dence before a Committee ?" the House ought to have punished
him (M-. Warburton) for publishing the debate, and they
might have excluded his Hon. Friend and himself from the
House unless they would promise not again to infringe the
Standing Order of the House against publishing a debate
which took place with closed doors, and furnishing it to the
newspapers.—( Hear, hear.) He could look upon the present
proceeding only in the light of an idle and foolish attempt to
shut out the daylight.--( Hear, hear.) He looked upon the
proposal to exclude his Hon. and Learned Friend from the
Committee as unjust to the public. He (Mr. Warburton)
could not see any mischief which could arise from his nomina-
tion, and his exclusion would give great dissatisfaction to the
public, who would think that they were not fairly dealt with.
Sir ROBERT PE EL need not repeat what he had before
stated, that he entirely dissented from the course taken by
her Majesty's Government in consenting to the nomination
of this Committee ; he still thought that the inquiry was most
unjust, and that if it had been entered upon at all—if the
responsible advisets of the Crown at the termination of the
arrangements theretofore existing, caused by the demise of his
late Majesty, kad advised an inquiry—it ought to have been
undertaken by the Crown itself, for he was convinced that
the Government ought to take all the responsibility devolving
upon them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It would hare been infi-
nitely better that the Government should have performed
this duty, if duty they conceived it to be ; but if, as the Noble
Lord had stated at the beginning of the Session, the respon-
sible advisers of the Crown were not disposed to originate an
inquiry, he did think that it was their duty to have resisted
it.—(Hear.) Either of these courses would have been in-
finitely better for the dignity and prerogative of the Crown
—( Hear)--and even if they had not been able to, have of-
fered an effectual resistance to inquiry by a Committee, he
thought that they ought to have allowed it to have been the
act of the House of Commons itself—(Hearehear)—and that it
ought not to have been adopted by that House on the advice of
her Majesty's Minkers.—( Hear.) He entertained such strong
objections upon principle to the course which had been adop-
ted, that he had himself declined to act upon the Committee;
and though cn other occasions, even after he had entertained
doubts upon the propriety of the appointment of any Com-
mittee, if the sense of the House appeared to be in favour of
it, and if a mere matter of policy were involved in the in-
quiry, he had never declined to serve ; but where, as in this
case, a point of justice intervened, he had felt it imperative
upon him to decline taking any part in the labours of the Corn-
mittee.--( Hear.) He had declined in his own case to take
upon himself any responsibility in this matter, and the ques-
tion now was, whether he should transfer this responsibility by
suggesting the nomination of any other Members of the Com-
mittee—wether he should vote for the insertion of any other
Hon. Member's name. 'This was a question oa which he should
be very much inclined, if he thought it consistent with his
character of a representative to adopt such a course, not to
give a vote ; but he held that such was a most shabby pro-
ceeding, and there were but few cases which justified a re-
tirement from the House without voting.—(Hear.) He
could not reconcile it with his duty to evade the responsibility
of saying aye or no to the present question ; and he declared,
without hesitation, that he should vote against tile amendment
'roved by his Hon. Friend the Member for Caithness ( Sir G.
Sinclair). He found that' out of the twenty-one suggested
members fifteen were from that (the Ministerial) side of the
House, and only six from his own supporters. Of this ho
made no complaint —he cared not for the proportion of mem-
bers from one side or the other ; but he adopted the broad
principle of avoiding the suggestion of any name. When he
(Sir R. P el) considered the nature of the inquiries which
must take place before the present Committee, when he re-
collected the course which the lion Gentleman had taken in
the Poor-law Committee —when he understood that he in-
tended to pursue the same course—when he refused to be bound
by the usual regulations of that House—when he declared his
intention of altering the object of a Select Committee--
when he asserted his right to select any cases which he might
deem proper, to choose a particular newspaper, and to place
day by day before the public the state of the' in ,uiry, before
an explanation could be given, he (Sir R. Peel) did think
that there were ether grounds besides those stated by the
Right lion. Gentleman, why the name of the Hon. and
Learned Member ought. not to be added to the Committee.
The lion. Member fur Marylebone had, indeed, stated that
the House could not prevent the evesioa by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Southwark of his non-appointment on
the Committee, fat that every Member of the House had a
right to attend, though not to vote, on every Committee
which the House might appoint. But it was said that the
Hon. Member might be present, and could publish the pro-
ceedings. The Hon. Member might do SO possibly, and there
would be a difficulty in preventing it ; but, then, there was a
difference bet weett tolerating what he could not prevent, aid
his being a party to the sanction of that act which he disap-
proved of. Hence what he was to look for wvs the best
manner of administering impartial justice, and enforcing the
regulations of that House ; and if he failed in accomplishing
these objects, he should at least have the satisfaction of know-
ing that hu had endeavour:d to do his best. The Hon. Gen-
tleelan the Member for Southwark, he was sure, would acquit
him of any intention of saying any thing disrespectful
towards him ; but, as the proposition was forced on him, he
told the Honourable Gentleman fairly, that he must refuse
to concur in his appointment upon such a Committee ; and
simply for this reason, that he had heard him express opiniors
with respect to the principles upon which such an inquiry
ought to be conducted; he -bad beard that Honourable Gen-
tleman throw such suspicions upon the motives which influenced
the grants in these eases, he had heard him indulge in such
sarcasms upon the persons to whom these pensions were paid,
that it was actually impossible for him in any manner to incur