The Sun.
London, England, 1808-05-05 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

WED,NRSDAY, MAY 4.
A ballot was taken for a Committee on the Do-
egal Petition.
Mr. CALCRAFT gave notice of A motion ott Mon-
day respecting the Rochefort Squadron.
• Mr. .13'131;1E4ra renewed, his notice of moving cer-
tain FinanCial Resolutions for Thursday.
A new Writ was ordered for the eleCtion. of a
Knight of the Shire for Rutland, in the room of
Wright, Esq, who has accepted :the C4iltern
flundreds.
Mr. Alderman Siis.w, presented a Petition from
the Butchers of London and Westminster, against
the Flaying A& now pending.—Ordered to lie on
theiable.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented some further Accounts
respecting the Droits oc Admiralty.—Ordered to lie
on the table.
- - Mr. •HostcissoN moved for an 'Account of the
disposal of 4;000,0001. of Exchequer Bills granted
in the last Session : also an Account of the Exche-
quer Bills of the last Session now outstanding and
unprovided for; also an Account of the Exchequer
Annuity Bills outstanding and ' tinprovided for;
which were ordered. He then "gave notice, that lie
should move the necessary provision'for the same in
the Committee of Ways and Means.
The LORD AnvoniTe• of Scoil.arna moved the
Order of the Day fcir the, 'l.lo4be to resolve ,itselt
into a Committee to consider the expediency of mak;-
ing provision by annuity for suet, Of the Scotch
Judges as, by reason of superannuation, infirmity,
or other cause, may retire from the Scotch Bench
and that it be an instruction to the Committee to
• make such provision.
Mr. ABZRCROMBIE had no .oNeClion to make lis
beryl provisien for the Jodges of Scotland, 6s.well as
fur those or England and Ireland, who, aftera long
life of arduous and laborious services to their country
in that capacity, shouldtind it necessary, froni age.,
or infirmity, to retire troth the duties of office.—
But he particularly objeaed against any such proVi
sion for the Scotch Barons of Exjchequer, whose
' duties 'were so trivial as to render their places
sinecure, notwithstanding the ample salaries attaCh-
ed. to their situations. The only causes tried before
them were merely questions of rcventte, 'ht 14
.th se
BO extremely few, as to occupy, but a very. Minute'
portion of their time. In fact, so trivial and insig-
nificant was the business of that Court cousidered, •
that, its Judges were not selected from 14Auert> most
eminent for their talents and for pra6tice, but
rather from persons of the contrary description; and.'
• even the last appointed Baron .(Norioti) bad never
appeared in his bar gown and wig for twenty years
preceding his elevation to the ,EXobt.quer
• Instead, therefore, of providing pensiens for such
mem, on their retreat from sinecure'places, it would
better become the House oleonuvOits, the guadian
of the public purse, as a: matter of cconomY, to
abridge the salaries at present annexed to their office. '
The Loan ADVOCATE of SCOTLXN defended the
proposed allowance, and contended, that the duties
of the Seoteh Btrons were much. more arduous than
those stated by the Honourable and Learned Gen- '
tleman ;: that they had not only the Revenue Laws
of Seetland,,but the Revenue itself to usana,ge, and
a vast extent of public accounts to He
that the distinaiim would be • itividiens, and that it
was owing to a mere inadvertency that the Scotch
Judges were not. included in the. Bill ,for securing
the Judges Pensiona in Englayd. The provittion he
meant to propose was upon a much lower scale than:
that allowed for the, judgei cii her- of. :England :or
Ireland, being but three-fourths of the full salt&
. and this would tend to render the ~ptvision less fre-
quent, because, if the duties were so small, it 'was
the less probable that the Judges woUld. retire from
the larger to the' smaller salary, Until tendered
wholly incapable of duty by eld age and infirmity:. •
• Mr. H. MARTIN fully agree,' ist the opinionond
supported' the arguments of his fiondtroble an! -
Learned Friend, who spoke last but one..
Mr'. WHITBREAD' spoke. to the same effeet. He
.• .
thoeght it would. be tho worst species of economy,
not to provide amply fear the jtidges, who .were mea
Seletled from the brat-rate learning:Alto prawce at
the Bar,' who relinquished much in'aer6pting. their
situations, and for which he thou;;ln their present
salaries inad4aate ; but from the •description-given
of the Scotch Barons by his'llononr,lble and Learn- ,
ed Friend, upon the 4ccura.cy ut whose information
he could rely, he mum con,ider the proposed Pen,.•.
*ions for them an abiolute job,
Mr. Bo‘ii.s (the Sohc;iorqs'eneral for Scotland)
and Mr. Rosi supported the-arguments ,of the Lord
Advocate...
Mr, FlEritri, M.SeTiN explained. . .
• Mr. Nol‘DoNALn contended; that it
.would be an
an of folly in the House- not to ingtfire inln the ser-,
yivee rendered, 1 which
:or, the' pensions were to ,be
vowed, aud,hoped that it, would • pause for atforms.
non before it dc6ded.
Mr. DurtniUf observed; that Gentlemen who bad
dWelt so strongly oti the little fOrenste duty which
the Judges. lt, Scotland hid to perform:, should
lea that neony Offices devolved On them.
also, and those most important and troublesome in
their natures; he instanced-the passing and' auditing
all public accounts they ought to be placed:far
potion,
.34 occurred
above tote: reacts of tem
that tbeScotch Barons of the Exchequer sat in jtulg...
inert on Use propriety of granting t pc :,loci to a
brother Judg.e.. He stated ako. that tht; Scotch
Barons-were m'fati bred to. ill,. b.tr, 'which was in..
deed indiSpinsable by an Act, rilf. Queen Anne. The

aeritts a ,i‘dinburgh, from ameng whom the Bs-
MIS of the Exchequer were' fre.quc:orly,cliosee, and
also the Court of AdmiNity, haxiiigh offici4duties
irnpo don them which requiri-d4ret ltgai know-
ledge t at all events, wiwll Jugs were itiOtip;:!'citited
through age, or idness, they certainly shuuld be su-.
petsected, And'eertainly ought hot to be left by the.
country without support. •
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, he 1114 not heard one
single reason. why remuneration ought to be given
those, when in idleness; wile had been already
amply recompenced fo the trifling duties they per=
formed when in office. If persons were placed in
situations requiring exertion, he supposed their
remuneration was proportioned- isa that exergiiii;
and "it -'should be their own look ',nut,' when.
capable :Of obtaining emolument, to 'save a
sufficiency for their support in a season when
such effort was irnpraaticable ; if the positive
salaries _were insufficient, he - had no obje&iori
to increase. them, but. he had no idea of sanc-
tioning that prospe&ive stimulus to premature inca-
pability—a pension. Some pensions might in the
iirstinstance be properly applied, when
,great exer-
tion called for great reward; but what wlas the con-,
sequence ? nominal offices were created for the purz
pose of creating real pensions, called for la3r no ne-.
.cessity hitt that of ministerial influence. He would
cutoff -the praCtice altogether. As to the, Meier
question at present, the House was uninfermed, and
of course he would vote for its postponement until
he could gain information. Ministers might call
themselves liberal by this grant of unnecessarypen-
sions; and, that liberality was easily exerted which
drew money out of anybody's pockets but their
own.

ffr f E

Mr. WHITBREAD explained. • •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER combated
chiefly the arguthents of the Hon. Baronet «•ho had
just sat down, He hoped no person would agree
with him, that those who were incapacitated in the
public service, should be deserted in their old age.
He said, the fewness of causes which had been urged,
Was no reason ; as the Baron's of ►he Exchequer had
other important duties in a•Ministerial capacity; he
said many More causes might exist, and appealed to
the Conimittee now sitting on .the subject of distil.
leries, if ►ttany revenue subjects might not in future
occupy the time of the *otch Judges, lie said
none were fitter for the Bench than the Scotch
Sheriffs, who required much legal knowledge.
Dr. LAWRENCE justified the exception made to the
Batuc-o of the Exchequer's recei►ing a pension.
Atter a few words from Mr. MA auIATT, the House

For tile Speaker's leaving , the Cluir, 63—Against It;
On our re-admission into the
‘galleiy, we found
the Housein a Committee, and Mr. BA-NKE3 on his
legs. He declared as a monstrous filet, that, in the
frugal reign of his present Majesty, the Scotch Pen-
sion List alone increased eight-fold.
Mr. BAiiii.Ea observed, that the Pension List of
Scotland now:amounted to 40,0001. and that at the
commencement of the present Reign it was only
5,0001.. He stated, that he could also point out an
instance of a pension being granted on the Ilere-L
dit;ryreServed Revenues, tor, the life of the grantee.
Dr. LAW RIINCE opposed the Clause:
Mr. W. SMITH did not consider the Barons of the
&chequer in Scotland as entitled to regiring vensions.
Their &flies bore little anklogy to those performed by
the Judges of that Court in this Country. They
were,, in tai,., rather of a financial than judicial de.
seripti(;n. He wished that the grant proposed should
be suspended until due enquity ‘vas made.
The LORD ADVOCATE was Of opinion, that this.
was not the proper time for discussing the appro.
pfialton of the Hereditary Revenues in Seotland.
That was a question of au entirely distinct nature
'from that now before the House. He considered
the .labours of the Judges both in Eugland and
Scotland as being by nu means sufficiently .re-
warded.

•
Mr.•WHITAILEAD thought there was no necessity
for such extraotoinary haste in this business. It
looked asif vane job were in contemplation. tie was
fur suspending the grant until the whole
.ot the
subjet was properly investigated. As to thepro-
piety of granting pensions' to the Judges of St;ot-
land, there could be no difference of opinion ; and
if any of these Gentletneu,s pending the investi,
gatian, shotidd' be under the necessity of retiring,
he:was persuaded thertsmould be no ObjeCtion in the
House to address his Majesty togrant !din the Usual.
pension His Oahu could not in the smallest 'de-
gree be prejudiced by the investigation.
The CuAscet.t.olt of ,the Excattatmit'contended
that the grant would not prevent the inquiry.; any
dela) was unnecessary. He repeated that the Crown
had not the' power of making (toots upon' the.
List for a longer period than the life at the grautee.
He ousted the House wouhl agree .with him, thk
"there was no reason for delaying this usual pro Vision
for a POlic,offieer but of a pubtie fund.
-Mr. WINDHAM 'Could not consider the Barons of
the Exchequer as proper objects io by pensioned
furls thy fund now undardiseassion. They had
scarcely any thing of The character of Judges in
them ; they were rather auditors of accounts than
expounders of the law.

, Sir J. Neu roe:. and Sir. A; Pioorr spoke aglinst
he Clause. • The latter said he could haVe no Ola-'
jeaion to,the making due ,provision for the Judges
of inty,par.t.of the Empire, if it were tiken from the
pmper fund. It was not to the principle, but. the
apiilication of it, he nbjeCted.n' ,
The House then divided on the Clause
Ayes, tig•—:Nues, 3.(---114:jority, 49.
'-The other Claitses were severally agreed to, and
the 1;,i,11 reported._ • •

The Payniasters" Bill was read a second time.
After sotue. conversation between the CHAN-CEL*
1.6.1.1 _OF the EXCIIECIVEK, Mr, WINDHAM, Dr. I.,Aw.
Et4Ct, and Lord PORCH Esmlt; the farther consider.
orlon of• the Coratee Stipendiary Bill was 'deterred
until.tb-morrow.
• 'Me Irish Assessed Taxes, Excise, and Stamp
I:slfics' thus, were brought up by Mr. FOSTER, read
a fi,st time, and ordered to be read a second time
• - '

The Malt Duty 1111, on the Motion of Mr,
HusitiissoN, was read a first time, and ordered to be
read again on Monday.
.I'lte/vlilitia Pay and Cloatbing, Militia Sabalterni",
and Militia Adjutants', and Serjeant-Majors' Al-
lowance Bills, were read a first time, and ordered
to be read a second time to-Morrow,