The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 27, 1863.

he possessed a most unblemished reputation. If the hon.
gentleman meant to insinuate—(Loud cries of "Order"
convened the right hon. gentleman to resume his seat.)

to pursue the ccurse which had been adopted in this in-
stance, and which would always prove unsatisfactory.
After a few words from Mr. BLA.CKBURNE and Mr. MUIR
the subject was allowed to drop,
THE IRISH CHURCH.

Mr. B. OSBORNE rose to move that a select committee
be appointed to inquire into the present ecclesiro, tical settle-
ment of Ireland. The hon. member said, in common with
many members on both sides of the house, he could not but
regret the position which this question of the Irish Church
had assumed ; and he was not surprised that his hon. friend
the member for S.vansea (4r. Isillwyn) should feel disap-
pointed at the somewhat Fabian policy displayed by the
Government when he bronght it before the house. At the
same time, it should be remembered how great was the
ignorance which prevailed in this country on the prospects
and position of the Irish Church, and how long an in-
terval had elapsed since the treatment of a question which
was both the stalking-horse and the eturablinsblock of
the Whig party, but which now, no doubt, found but
little favour on the Treasury bench. (Ironical cheers.)
True, it was far easier and much more popular to read
lectures to the Emperor of Russia on the management
of Poland than to legislate for Ireland—(hear, hear)—
and he could imagine that the ghost of Bangle() rising
in the midst of the festivities was not more unwelcome to
Macbeth than was the revival of this question to the feeble
lord and those of his colleagues who formerly rocked the
cradle of the Irish Church agitation, but who finally stood
by, if not as murderers, at least in the character of mutes,
at the downfall of their old friend "appropriation." (Much
laughter and cheers.) Nevertheless, despite all, in the face
of the returns recently moved for, in the face of the census
of 1861, it would not he possible for any long period for the
House of Commons to avoid dealing with the ecclesiastical
settlement of Ireland. Great ignorance prevailed in Eng-
land upon the subject. Indeed, he could not but think that
more knowledge was displayed here onthe concerns of China
than on the affairs of Ireland. Ireland was very much in the
same situation she was described to be in 20 years ago by
Lord Russell. She was occupied, but not governed. (Oh,
oh, and cries of "Hear, hear.") There was a tranquillity of
exhaustion on the surface, but discontent, if not dissatisfac-
tion was below. (No, no, and hear, hear.) The hon. mem-
ber then referred to the opinions formerly pronounced by
Lord Carlisle, Lord Palmerston, and Sir G. Grey, on the
subject of the Irish Church. The opinion of Lord Palmer-
ston, declared in 1843, was to the effect that in no country
of the world was there a grievance to compare with the Irish
Church establishment—it was a grievance of an enormous
character ; it was a grievance which it was within the power
of the Government to remedy, and for which the Govern-
ment were bound to provide an instant remedy. (Loud iro-
nical cheers.) Such was the declaration made by the Lord
Palmerston of 1813; and here was the declaration of the
Home Secretary of to-day. The hon. member quoted from
the speech of Sir G. Grey, delivered in Feb., 1844, in which
the right hon. baronet declared that the Irish people could
not look upon the Irish Church except with the most egre-
gious dissatisfaction ; and t hat nothing could be more hazard-
ous than for Parliament to refuse to entertain the question.
(Cheers.) Well, where were the remedial measures produced
by those men for the rectification of this enormous griev-
ance. Searching the records of Parliament for the present
session, he found that a compulsory bill for the vaccination
of adults and infants, and a bill now hanging in nubibus for
the protection of Irish salmon, had exhausted the Whig
budget of reform for Ireland. [Loud cheers and laughter.)
He would ask, should such a state of things be allowed to
continue by the Liberal party. (Loud cheers.) He owned
at the outset that he for one did not contemplate the de-
struction of the Irish Church. It would neither be politic
nor prudent to uproot it. What he contended for was that
there should be some adaptation of its monstrous establish-
ment. He intended to prove that, so far from the Churches
of England and Ireland being united, they were dissimilar
in all respects. The Church of England had been always
identified with the liberties of Englishmen, and her clergy
were as tolerant and as educated a race as any clergy on the
face of the globe. But could any one affirm that the Irish
clergy had been identified with the liberties of the Irish
people ? As an institution the Church of Ireland was a
plunderer; as a national religion, it was a fraud, although
a pious fraud. (Much laughter and cheers.) Anyone who
had had the misery to listen to Irish sermons must know
that the great bulk of the Irish clergy were Puritanical and
Calvinistic in their tendencies ; and certainly that was not
the case in England. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman
had also complained that the whole revenues of the Irish
Church only yielded £2OO per annum on the average to
each clergyman; but he did not know that that was not
quite enough, considering the small amount of work they
did. (Hear.) The fact was that the present immense staff
of archbishops, bishops, archdeacons and clergy was most
ridiculously large as compared with the number of Pro-
testants in Ireland. Bishops with only 5,000 Protestants
in the whole of their diocess were in receipt of £5,000 and
£6,000 a year, with a large staff of archdeacons and clergy.
He recommended that the number of bishops should be
reduced from twelve to six, and the salaries (as formerly re-
commended by Sir W. P. Wood) to a uniform £1,550 a
year. The hon. gentleman caused some laughter by reading
an auctioneer's catalogue of the effects of a deceased bishop,
which included 100 dozen of wino, 200 fallow deer, &c.,
and which he said was a disgrace to the age. The hon. gen-
tleman quoted Archdeacon Stopford and several other emi-
nent Irish Churchmen, who were in favour of reform. The
hon, gentleman gave an account of the incomes of the
bishops and clergy of the different dioceses, the number of
Protestants and Catholics in each parish, and the church
accommodation in comparison with the number of Pro-
testants who attended the church services. In one case the
number of Protestants, including the parson and clerk, was
eight, and the church accommodation for 150; in another
there was church accommodation for 100 persons, and one
policeman only attended. On the other hand, there were
parishes containing over 3,000 population, with church ac-
commodation for 500, but only 31 Protestants, the bishop's
income being 1,152. In Powerstown there was a population
of 400, with church accommodation for 100, and the attend-
ants—one policeman ; but, to be sure, there was one other
Protestant parishioner in the parish, but he had been bed-
ridden for years. (Laughter.) He quoted those facts from
the " Irish Church Directory," a work which the right
hon. gentleman the member for the University of Dublin
had said could be perfectly relied on, and they proved that
the Protestants were limited in number and that the clergy
almost exceeded in number their flocks. The remedy he
proposed was to reduce them in the same proportion as
he proposed to diminish the bishops. He next called atten-
tion to the number of clergymen who did not reside in
their respective parishes, and he asked to be informed
whether those absentees could claim to be paid their tithe
rent charge. (Hear, heir.) The "Irish Church Direc-
tory" summed up these facts with the observation that the
census showed that, whether as regarded population or
distribution, the result could not be regarded otherwise
than satisfactory. He urged that the house should take
the matter into their consideration, and send her Majesty's
Ministers to the other side of the house to agitate the ques-
tion. The remedy was, to make the system congregational
instead of territorial or parochial, as proposed by Earl Rus-
s:l in 1844. The late Sir G. C. Lewis also urged the reduc-
tion of the State provision to the level of the actual num-
bers, and adoption of the congregational system, with one
biship only for each province. The right hon. gentleman
(Sir R. Peel) perhaps would say he was not a follower of
Earl Russell ; but he was of the noble lord at the head of
the Government, who also approved of the congregational
system in 1844. He next inquired how far the Irish Church
was a missionary Church. They boasted at having spent
£30,000, and of their having made 30,000 converts. When
he objected to the means taken to deceive the public mind
on that subject, he wished to direct the attention of the
house to what he called the monstrous deceptions which
had been, and were, practised upon the old ladies of this
country who had more money than wit, with regard to those
missionary societies. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It was
said the missionary societies in Connaught were attended
with signal success, and that within the last few years
30,000 converts had been received into the Church. That
was all in Galway, whose population consisted of 251,256,
and of whom 7,500 were Episcopalians. But where were
the 30,000 converts ? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The
truth was, that any one who could give credence to such
statements, or believe " Good News from Ireland"—
(laughter)—must be bereft alike of intellect and judgment.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member quoted the opinions of
Lord Plunkett, the late Sir Robert Peel and Lord Palmer-
ston, in support of the position that the fifth article of the
Union did not stand in the way of the revision of the
Irish Church, and then referred to the management of
its property by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, The
wisdom of that management might be judged from the
fact that at Clonmel, after spending £4,000 in improving
the parish church, it was found that it would contain 200
less than it did before—(laughter)—and that they were now
about to expend £2,800 more to enlarge it to its old propor-
tions. (Laughter.) He had himself seen cobwebs in the
font for want of baptisms—(laughter)—marriages were at
a stand-still for want of people, and funerals likewise—
(laughter)—and in his own parish the sexton was an old
woman and a Roman Catholic. (Great laughter.) A
vacancy took place in the deanery of Ardfert, where there
was no cure of souls ; and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
in their report, stated that they were about to recommend
his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland not to fill up
the deanery, but that they found his Excellency had already
filled up the vacancy. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) What
was the right hon. gentleman about, whose duty it was to
keep the Lord Lieutenant in order? (Laughter.) The
hon. gentleman concluded by saying—But while they are
endeavouring with such assiduity to pull the beamfrom the
eye of his Holiness the Pope, they might find sufficient time
to remove the Irish mote from their own vision. (Cheers.)
This I know, that a noble lord in another place has lately
kindly offered a palace and an asylum to his Holiness at
Malta. I think it may be suggested to the noble lord that
if the people of Ireland were consulted, they would not ob-
ject to see the Protestant Primate of the Irish Church re-
moved to a smaller mansion, and a more circumscribed in-
come. I know that where the Pope is concerned
thepeop(lCehoefeErsngland are apt to lose their reasoning powers.
(Hear.) At the same time there is a strong analogy between
the position of the Pope and the situation of the Prime
Minister. Both the Minister of England and the Pope of
Rome have been made heads of the Liberal party in their
respective countries. (Laughter.) Both at one time have
been ardent reformers, Both have produced Reform Bills,

and both have abandoned them. (Cheers.) The Pope is

supported at Rome by French soldiers. The Prime Min'

ster is kept upon the Treasury Bench by Conservative
votes, (Loud cheers.) Both are inclined at present to
do little or nothing. ll'on possu►nus is as much the
motto of the Pope of It onie as of the Minister in
Dowsing-street. (Cheers.) I regret that the Ministers
do not sometimes look at home "and see ourselves as others
see us." If they did so they would see four and a half mil
lions of Catholics in Ireland who would accept some of the
six points which are offered for four millions of Catholics in
Warsaw. (Cheers.) I think they would not object to see
men who have the confidence of the Irish people sitting is
the noble lord's Cabinet. The noble lord can recommend
to the Czar in suggestive lectures that there should be no-
thing but Poles having the confidence of Poles in the ad-
ministration of Poland, but he sedulously excludes every
man who is an Irishman and enjoy the confidence of Irish-

men from his own Cabinet. (Cheers) It is because lam
not content to masque, ade as a reformer in a foreign coun-
try, and act as an obstructive at home, that I for one, who
prefer contentment in Ireland to want in Italy, am opposed
to these projeolts of the noble lord ; and I think that if the
Liberal party pretend to hay e any claim to the name they
will not be content for ever to rest in their present torpid
state, but will unite upon this question, and insist upon the
measure which I have so inefficiently and so lengthenedly
advocated. (The hon. gentleman resumed his seat amid
loud cheers.)

Mr. CARD WELL, who rose as soon as the question was
put, was received with loud calls for Sir Robert Peel,
Mr. Cardwell, however, persevered, and said that,
although ho could not aspire to continue tho animated
and amusing tone with which the hon. gentleman had so
long kept the house in pleasant occupation, he hoped they
would permit him to offer them some serious remarks upon
a subject which sufficiently deserved their serious conside-
ration. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman had given notice on
the 19th May of a much less extensive ra-,tion than his pre-
sent one. But now he wanted to open up the whole ques-
tion of the ecclesiastical settlement of Ireland. They all
knew what that meant. On the part of the Government,
he asked the house to resist the motion of his hon. friend,
and to go on with the business before them. (Cheers.)
They ought not to touch so great an institution as the Irish
Church without good cause, or unless there were a hope
that the movement could be brought to a satisfactory con-
clusion. The hon. member had said that circumstances
altered cases, and when he charged the Liberal party with
being on the other side of the house, he forgot to tell the
house that he was amongst them, and did not enliven the
house with one of those animated sallies he had treated
them to that night. The proposition of 1844 was different
from that now proposed, He believed the house would not
surrender the principle of an Established Church, or
alienate from its ecclesiastical uses the revenues of the
Church—(Opposition cheers)—and the plan of 1844 he felt
certain would not find favour with either party. He ob-
jected to the appointment of a committee, on the ground
that it would not result in a just or satisfactory solution of
the evils complained of. It would be more consistent with
what they owed to the interests of the country and their
conscientious convictions to reject the motion. The Regius
Donum and the Maynooth grant were mixed up in the set-
tlement of this question, and he advised them not to adopt
a motion that would load to such a complication of difficul-
ties.

The O'DONOGHUE said the Protestant Established
Chuich in Ireland had not been, and never could be, any-
thing more than the Church of the minority in that coun-
try, and it was unjust to compel tbem to contribute to
the support of a Church in whose doctrines th,y did
not believe, and whose teachings they emphatically re-
jected. The hon. gentleman condemned the existence of the
Protestant Church in Ireland as an insult to the people,
and a misappropriation of funds originally created for the
support of the Catholic establishment. It would always be
a bar to social harmony, and an obstacle to public peace,
and he appealed to any body of Englishmen to say whether
they would endure such an interference with their own
Church. He spoke in no spirit of bigotry, because many
of his most esteemed friends were Protestants, but simply
as a matter of justice, for which arguments might be ad-
duced that were totally unswerable.
Mr. G. DUFF then moved the adjournmerit of the debate.
Mr. NEWDEGATE complained that the hon. mem-
ber fir Liskeat d should have selected that evening, when

it was well known that many members of the Conservative
pirty would be engaged elsewhere—Dir. B. Osborne—l
know nothing about it]—and when it was known that the
Prime Minister was .indi:posed, for dressing up that old
doll the " appropriation" clause with such tinsel as his wit
could furnish, and thrust it upon the house at so advanced
an hour of the night, He, for one, as an English Protes-
tant, would never be induced to follow the example of some
members in that house, and cast aside the Church of Ire-
land as a poor relation. There was no consistency in main-
taining the union between England and Ireland unless the
Protestant establishment was maintained in Ireland.
Sir G. GREY hoped that, as it would be impossible to
bring the debate to a conclusion that night (it was one
o'clock), the house would now consent to the motion for
adjourning the debate. (Hear, hear.)
The debate was then agreed to be adjourned until Monday.
The Harwich Harbour Bill was read a third time and
passed.

The Howth Harbour Bill, as amended, was considered,
The Partnership Law Amendment Bill was committed
pro fot ma.

The Misappropriation by Servants Bill passed through
committee.

The Courts of the Church of Scotland Bill, as amended,
was considered.

The house adjourned at a quarter past one.