The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-08 00:00:00

CITY OF LONDON POLICE.
On the motion of Mr. F. M AUL E the Lords' amend-
ments to the City of London Police Bill were agreed to
Mr. DARBY presented a petition from a parish in
Sussex against the Tithe Commutation Act.
MALTA.
Mr. HAWES presented a petition from the inhabitants
of Malta signed by 1,140 persons praying for the establish-
,rient of a Legislative Council. a New Code of Laws,
Liberty of the Press, Encouragement of Trade by making
the Ports of the Island free, and also for a better distri_
bution of employment.
Mr. EWA RT also presented a petition from Malta
praying for a salutary and permanent system of Govern-
ment in the Island.
BIRMINGHAM POLICE.
Mr. THOMAS ATT WOOD presented a petition
from the Mayor, Corporation, and inhabitants of Bir-
mingham, against the Birmingham Police .Bill. It stated
that the Bill was in opposition to the wishes of the inha-
bitants; that they were willing to adopt measures for the
establishment of an efficient police under their own con-
trol; and that they were not conscious of having done any
thing to forfeit the confidence of the country ; that for this
purpose they had applied to the Government for a loan
of 10,0001., but that they had no intention in so doing, of
abdicating those great and important functions which had
been entrusted to them by the Charter granted to them
so recently by the Crown, and sanctioned by• an Act of
Parliament; that they had done nothing to forfeit the con-
fidence of the country, as they were unconvicted, and as
far as they were aware, unaccused. That they believed
the present plan had been universally adopted at the sug-
gestion of a party in the Borough, bound together in a
club, under the title of the Loyal and Conservative Asso-
ciation, who, vexed at being in a minority in the muni-
cipal body, had never ceased to calumniate the peti-
tioners ; they prayed the House not to pass this measure,
which would form a precedent highly dangerous. Also a
petition from the wine and spirit merchants and licensed
victuallers of Birmingham, against the Excise Licenses
(Sale of Spirits) Bill.
Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from some place
in Kent, against that part of the New Poor-law B
which denied out-of-door relief.
BANK OF IRELAND.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from Mr. Thomas
Moody against the Bank of Ireland Bill..
Mr. O'CONNELL presented petitions from two pa-
rishes in Dublin against certain assessments; and also a
petition from a gentleman, whose name we could not learn,
who was secretary to a Mining Company, complaining
of the conduct of the Directors of the Bank of Ireland,
and praying that the Bill now before the House might not
pass into a law.
Mr. SHIEL presented a petition from certain members of
the Society of Friends praying the House to adopt mea-
sures to suspend the execution of a treaty entered into by
Sir F. Head with the Indians. Also a petition from nu-
merous places in the County of Tipperary against the
Bank of Ireland Bill.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET presented a peti-
tion from the Guardians of the Poor of the Holborn
Union denying the allegations of a petition presented some
days ago, by the Hon. Member for Finsbury and praying
for inquiry.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUME gave notice that to-morrow he would bring
up the Report of the Committee on the Bude Light.
Mr. HUTTON gave notice that he would propose
clauses on the third reading of the Bank of Ireland Bill.
On the motion of Mr. O'CONNELL a copy of the
despatches from Sir George Arthur, relating to Orange
Lodges in Canada, since the 17th of May 1837, were
ordered.
The Lords' amendments to the Custody of Infants Bill
were agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. F. MAULE, a new writ was
ordered to issue for Perth in the room of Mr. Kinnaird,
who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.

prove of a police elected by that body. He (Lord J. Rus-
sell) agreed with bird in that opinion. The Hon. Gentle-
man objected to the police being appointed by the Magis-
trates, and said that it was a system of centralization ; but
this Bill would not have that effect, for the powers wettla
be local. —( Ilear, hear.) He did not object to the general
principle that there should be County Boards. What
he proposed was the appointment of an efficient police. lie
was not creating a body with the power of taxation, but
giving a body already existing the appointment of con-
stables. Although it was so late in the Session, he con-
sidered it necessary to persevere in giving this power to
the Magistrates of counties, with certain limitations which
would oblige them to take measures to carry out an
efficient police.
In answer to a question by Mr. WILBRHHAM,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that if Magistrates were
satisfied with their present constables, there would be no
obligation on them to have another constabulary.
Mr. WARBURTON said the suggestion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Wigan was so reasonable, that he
hoped the Noble Lord would agree to it. Not many per-
solis could dispute the utility of having an efficient consta-
bulary force in the different counties. But what ho said
was, that as they were called upon, at a very late period
of the Session, to agree to a Bill on account of a particular
emergency—and as, in consequence of that emergency, the
Noble Lord would probably find the House much more
agreedis-
pose d to to his measure—it was but fair that the Bill
should be merely temporary, so as to give an opportunity
of considering it on a future occasion, in principle and de-
tails. Therefore he thought that the Bill should be pnly
for two years, and should advise his Hon. Friend- the
Member for Wigan to propose that in Committee.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his objection to that
proposition—reasonable as it might seem at first sight—was,
that if the Bill were only for two years, and if, conse-
quently, the contracts under it could only be for that limited
period, respectable men would not be likely to enter the
force, and such men only would be obtained as could get
no other employment and who would probably be unfitted
for the duties of constables.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir E. WILMOT said it would certainly have bees
much more desirable that the Bill should have been brought
in three months ago, when it could have been more fully
discussed.—( Hear, hear.) But the question was, whether,
under the particular circumstances, some Bill of this kind
ought not to be introduced ? Were they to go on for '
another year, with no other protection for the country than
the present temporary force?—(Hear, bear.) He felt the
importance of what the Noble Lord had suggested—the
procuring of honest and respectable men for the consta-
bulary. One provision of the Bill he decidedly objected
to, that for the appointment of a Chief Constable. In all
counties there were hundreds, rapes, and other divisions—
each haring a Chief Constable. Why should not these
officers appoint constables under them ? This it appeared
to bim would save trouble and expense. He now
wished to explain a statement which he had
seen in the papers, with regard to the Magistracyof Warwickshire—that the present Lord Lieutenant
bad appointed GO Clergymen to the Commission, and ten
to one Tory Magistrates. The real fact was that his Lord-
ship had only appointed 32 Conservatives and 35 Whigs.
—( Mr. Hume, " How many were there before ?") With
that he had nothing to do. The Lord Lieutenant could

' per. He also wished to advert to to the clause relating to
altering the tenures of Montreal, and to recommend that
the ' Seminary" of Montreal should not be re-established
on its original foundation, which prohibited parting with its
property, and this would in fact be the result of converting
the tenure, so that the provisions would be somewhat con-
tradictory.
Mr. L A BOUCHE RE said any law regulating the
tenures of land would, he conceived, come under the
reatriction requiring all permanent laws to be laid on the
tables of both Houses of Parliament. As to the
amendments which the Lords had made, the most
I important was that to which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had last adverted, altering the power originally given to
legislate for the commutation of tenures, and restricting it
to Montreal only. Now, there had been an arrangement
between the " Seminary" and the inhabitants of Mont-
real, to enfranchise the land on terms perfectly satisfac-
tory to both parties, and Sir John Colborne had strongly
recommended its being speedily carried into effect. He
( Mr. Labouchere) was glad that the Lords had not taken
away the power with respect to Montreal, and it would be
most unfortunate that any delay should he unnecessarily
interposed against its execution.—(Hear, hear.)
The amendment was agreed to.
The remaining amendments were then agreed to.
IRISH CORPORATIONS—LORDS' RESOLU-
TIONS.
Lord J. RUSSELL, befoie he asked the opinion of the
House relative to the amendments made by the House of
Lords in the Irish Corporations' Bill, wished to make an
observation respecting certain resolutions which it appeared
by the votes of the House of Lords that House had come
to regarding the administration of justice. It appeared
from these votes that the House had come to a resolution
stating that it was the duty of the Executive Govern-
ment in all cases, before exercising the prerogative
of mercy, to apply for informarion to the Judge,
before whom the person convicted was tried, and to be
guided by this opinion as to the course to be pursued, ex-
cept in cases where it was impossible to apply to him or when
inconvenient delay might be the consequence—in which
case the Executive was not bound to wait for his opinion ;
he did not wish now to enter into any argument respecting
that question, but as it was connected with the discharge
of the duties of the office, which he had the honour to
hold, he thought it his duty to state that the course recom-
mended by this resolution was in direct opposition to the
course hitherto pursued by himself and by former Secre-
taries of State ; that he considered it an improper intefer-
ence with the prerogatives of the Crown, and that it was
his intention, in all such cases, to pursue the course hitherto
pursued notwithstanding this resolution.—(Tremendous
cheering.) If a law had passed the three branches of the
Legislature enacting that this course was henceforth to be
pursued, of course he should obey such law, but he did not
feel himself justified in deviating from the regular course
which had hitherto been followed by the advisers of the
Crown in consequence of such a resolution, which he con-
sidered as an interference with the prerogatives of the
Crown. With respect to the amendments proposed by
the Lords in the Irish Corporation Bill, before
he proceeded further, he wished to have the opinion of
the Speaker regarding one of those amendments. The
Bill had passed that House transferring to the Irish Corpo-
rations certain powers at present possessed by the Grand
Juries in Ireland of levying certain taxes. The House of
Lords had made an alteration in this clause, whereby the
power was retained to the Grand Juries instead of being
transferred to the Corporations. He wished to have the
opinion of the Chair as to the exact nature of this amend-
ment, whether it was of such a nature, and interfered in
such a manner with the privileges of the House, as rendered
it incumbent on the House to reject it at once without fur-
ther discussion.
The SPEAKER said certainly this was an amendment
to which the House ought not to agree. This House bad
always been so jealous of any inteterence of the House of
Lords in this respect that they would not even permit that
House to make an alteration in the name of a single Trus- B
tee in a Turnpike Bill, nor would they suffer the House
of Lords to make any alteration in a Bill concerning rates. On clause 1 being proposed,
He therefore thought the House could not agree to this Lord G.appointment of
amendment. Chief Constables. They would be wholly SOMERSET objected to the
useless in large
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished further to know the counties
opinion of the Chair as to whether the amendment was Mr. G. PALMER was of the same opinion, and he
fatal to the Bill, thought it necessary tbat the rules and regulations to
_be
The SPEAKER did not think it was fatal to the Bill, made by the Secretaryf of State ought to be made known
because the House might dissent from the amendment, and to the House. it was taking the whole power from the
Magistrates, and centralizing it in the hands of' the Noble
signify their dissent to the Lords.
Mr. SHA W did not think this amendment was fatal to Lord in the Home Office. Lord J. RUSSELL had had a conversation, as he had
the Bill. He submitted that that did not apply in the stated, with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
present case; the House of Lords bad not in the slightest Pembroke, and who was of opinion that these alterations
degree altered any money clause in the Bill. There could
be no doubt that the House of Lords had the right to
would be beneficial.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir Jas. Gre-
throw out a money clause in a Bill, but it could net alter
ham.) He did not object to the proposal that the altera-
it. In the present instance it had done neither one times should be printed and taken into consideration to-
morrow, but before the Committee agreed to that he wished
nor the other, because these clauses formed no
part of the Bill. The Bill was a perfect one to declare very strongly his opinion with respect to the '
without them, and their alteration or omissionthe Honourable Member for
point mentioned
therefore did not so change the character of the Bill as that Warwickshire, and bythe Honourable Gentleman who
that House consistently with its privileges might not adopt had just sat down. Although the Bill no doubt
them. In the Southend Pier case a similar course wee would require amendment, and although the system
adopted; there the Lords threw out a clause, and upon might require alteration, yet they ought to take care to
begin well, and if they adopted a system inefficient in
the Bill coming back to the House of Commons
the course they adopted was agreed to, because the its commencement, they would have in the first place con-
iclause had been inserted by a Committee without the s'derable difficulty in altering it, and then a good deal of
authority of the House. If the House of Lords had
dealt with this clause, and transferred the power to other remodelling the system. He considered it was quite
parties, then he should concur with the suggestion of the necessary for the efficiency of any body of police that there
Chair, that it was an alteration in the management of a should be one or two persons at the head of it, who should
tax which that House could not allow. He considered have the general direction and organisation of the force.
what had been done by th H e ouse of Lords was no invasion superannuationl and inconvenience of that kind, upon
There should be a Chief Constable, to whom the duty
of the privileges of the House, and that it was perfectly should be entrusted, and on whom should rest the respon.
competent for them to meet the amendments of the Lords sibility of forming the constabulary. There was no db-
by re-introducing the clauses. jection to the Noble Lord's proposition, that the amend- ,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought there were certain inents should be taken and the Bill reprinted.
cases in which a Bill, not being a money Bill, but con- Sir J. GRAHAM said as the Bill originally stood it
taming money clauses, where the omission and rejection of was left to the Magistrates to form rules and regulations
those clauses would not make it necessary for that House to for the police. He did not think they were the persons best
insist upon those clauses. He agreed in the difficulty qualified to do so, and suggested that the rules and regula-
pointed out by the Chair to the House assenting to these lions should be transmited to the Lords Lieutenant of the
clauses, because the effect of their rejection was, different counties. He thought one uniform set of rules
though it did not entirely get rid of the tax, should be transmitted to the Magistrates by the Secretary
it transferred the management of it to other parties of State, through the Lord Lieutenant, subject to any
lie conceived they might in perfect consistency disagree to objections they might make to them. He thought it de-
those amendments, stating in their reasons for so doing that citable that the appointment of chief constable should be
they were against the privileges of the House. He vested in the Magistrates, but that it would be inexpedient
thought they should disagree to them on the point of pri- that the local authorities should have the appointment of
persons to serve under that office, in whom the power of
eilesse ; he would, therefore, propose that the amendments
be printed, and taken into consideration on Friday next. making those appointments ought to be vested.
The ATTORNEY-G E NE R A L thoueht theease per- Mr. G. PALMER explained.
fectly clear. The Lords might make such amendments Mr. HODGSON HINDE was of opinion that in
in a Bill which would at once be fatal to it, and the; would be better to appoint chief constables of districts in
might make others which would not be so and thougha manner similar to that in which inspectors of police are
,
they trenched upon the privileges of the House of Com-
appointed, than to appoint one chief constable for each
mons, they might disagree with them. In the county, as from the extent of the county such an officer
particular case before the House, they might insist must be incapable of efficiently performing all the duties
upon the restoration of the clauses, and then they might Which must devolve on him.
consider the other amendments. Had it been a money Mr. GRIMSD IT c Ii thought the Bill would establish
Bill of course any alteration would have been fatal, but it an unconstitutional force in this country.
was merely a money clause in a Bill, which was not a The clause having been agreed to,
money Bill, and he was of opinion that the amendments Mr. EWA RT proposed a clause limiting the Bill to 1841.
were not fatal. The C H AIR MAN said, is order, the clause could not
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know whether it was sow be received.
intended that there should be two discussions and two coin Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that it should be brought
ferences with the Lords. He saw the anxiety of the up on the Report.
Learned Recorder of Dublin to pass the Bill ;he did not Mr. EWA RT wished only to have saved time ; but
think that argued much in favour of its popularity. would at once accede to the Noble Lord's recommendation,
Mr. HUME did not see why they should print the Mr. BR AIM STON asked if the Bill was to supersede
amendments, which the House could not agree with ; it all special jurisdictions?
was better to disagree with them at once.
Lord J. RUSSELL said there would be provisions in-
Lord G. SOMERSET—The amendments were not in troduced to meet that.
existence, therefore they could not be printed; the clauses Mr. WA RBURTON wished to observe with regard to
were struck out. the Lord Lieutenant of Warwickshire's selection of the
Mr. WARBURTON supported the proposition of the Magistrates, that before 1830, out of 130, there were only
Hoe. Member for Kilkenny ; it would save time and 12 Liberals. Since that period, the proportion certainly
trouble, which would eventually be useless. had been altered. But what was it now ? Why, out of
Colonel T. WO OD did not think the Lords had infringed 157, there were only 49 Liberals.—( Hear, hear.) The a
the privileges of that House, any more than they would Hon. Baronet ( Sir E. Wilmot) bad wished to give the
Noble Earl ( Warwick) the full credit of this change,
if they had rejected the Postage Bill.
After a few words from Mr. T. ATTWOOD, and the merit of appointing 30 or 35 Liberals to the
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the House could not ask
Magistracy—whereas the Noble Earl had himself dis-
claimed that merit, and asserted that these Liberals had
a conference with the Lords till they had decided on all
the amendments. Therefore he should persevere in his been " forced upon him."—(Hear, hear.) Now in fact
the merit really belonged to the lion. Baronet, who was
proposal, and move that the amendment be taken into
consideration on Friday. then a Liberal—and who having. acted as locums tenens
Mr. S/I A W—lncluding the question of privilege ? for the Lord Lieutenant while his Lordship was on the
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Yes. Continent, had added the Liberal Gentlemen to the Com-
m
The amendments were then ordered to be printed aria mission. Again, out of 36 Deputy Lieutenants, there
taken into consideration on Friday. were only seven Liberals.
The SPEAKER said he ought to state there were other Sir E. WIL NIOT observed that all he meant to do
to protect Lord Warwick fro.mt he attacks
that had
clauses with respect to which the House of Lords had
been made against him for appoint' 00. Conservative Magic.infringed their privileges, but not to any great extent, and
the House might therefore assent to those alterations. It traces. The truth was that since Lord Warwick had been
would be unwise in the house to push their privileges to too Lord Lieutenant, 35 Liberal Magv,ishtartat:serehatdhebei
peculiar
lilar
Pointedwhile only 32 Conservatives bad filled thtilt situation.
great an extent, but there was a limit beyond which con-
.-•WAKLEY lamented that the Hon. .!‘ ember for
cession ought not to be extended.—(Hear, hear.)
mtooreenftuitlllYe tl
had thought it his duty to call the attention of the Houselie qualifications o pe , iemselves to be called
B ri dp ort had. not
r, statedons
Liberels.—( A laugh.) From his own
of
xperience he felt
to these clauses, as they involved a very great principle.
Lord EL lOT asked the Speaker whether, in his opi-
bound to say that the less the number persons calling
nion, the omission of the clauses involved a breach of the appointed to the Magistracy
privileges of the House ? themselves Liberals who were
the better.—( Laughter.)
jcct.The SPEAKER had no doubt whatever upon the sub- • Mr. P. 110 \VA le D roseto or,,e,
~—this would lead to a..
protracted debate.—( A laugh.)
COUNTY AND DISTRICT CONSTABLES BILL. Mr. WAKLE Y said that the course pursued by the
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day Hon. Member who had risen to order wasa specimenof
for the House going into Committee on this En the liberality of the Liberals. The shoe
Mr. HUME protested against the House transferring to fore he did not like to have the questiond pinchedcl. and
there-
-
an irresponsible body the power of taxing. the whole coin- After a few observations from Sir E
reedNi.cunelOT in ex.
Triunity, He wished to see an
efficient and proper planation, the Bill was ordered to be re' o
The Hoase then resumed; the Reportp was 'received and
police established, but he submitted a board
ordered to be taken into further consideration I
ought to be appointed which would he responsible
B_ERNIINGLIANI POLICE BILL.
to-morrow.
to the rate-payers. He protested against the House pro.
cee iii, d• • g with a Bill of this nature at that late period of the ...
eie. 10 X M A ULE moved the second reading of the
Session. There ought to have been a call of the liosiee
of so m •h upon this Bill, which involved a. principle w, leir:i"'"gbelu Police Bill.
A r. T. ATTWOOD would move as an amendment,
importance as to the way in which taxation should he
regulated. lie submitted it would bewell for the Noble that it be read a second time that day three months. He
_... .
.
Lord to pause before pressing a Bill of this nature, and to believed the Bill would prove most injurious, and would
consider how far the necessities of the country required not at all contribute to the peace of Birmingham ; on the
loin to violate the important principle of taxation end contrary, he was afraid it would tend to breaches of' the
representation going together. lie moved that the further peace to a very sericiusi magnitude. He had received a
consideration of thee Bill be postponed till this day three letter front the Town Cler.k, stating the resolutions that
months.
had been agreed to by the . , Town Council, iu opposition to
.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD seconded the amendment. II the Bill. They considered tip „Bill a gross insult to them,
thought the 13ill a most dangerous one, and calculated toe and had requested their representativeseto withdraw_ their
endanger the peace of the commueity. Is tend, i support from the Government. New, I!
d(\ll.r, Attwood)
ewn•ilewevtehreyinontliehad a mak).
and his Hon.colleagues bad often supported i linisters when
!nucleic) the Tory system of centralization, to which(too is
present Ministry' had lent themselves, and which t
li 1
Laughter.)
they were hard up—(Laughter)n--Ton :one occasion they
bring uon them the Tory fate, for they wouldwuoilltit-
mately b eqhiesred.—(Laughter.) • rity of two, and if . . . other side,
had given them ehrebireys.
Mr. EWA RT objected to the Bill a petition '
as it at present stood, He had
not because it involved the system Ministers would have been in a r.ninority.—(
of centralization, but , was the belief of the inhabitants. of Birmingham that this
because there was no due ulpipadorgt
responsibility. He wished the measure had been unwarily adopted at the suggestion of a
police to be under res • ponsible ratepayers, because greater small faction in that town, calling
. 0 themselves the loyal
satisfaction would be given, forthe
. force of a police e,-,n- land Conservative Association, who smsrti i hh. -
. , • ns um cc t e ex-
sisted not in physical
power but in moral posver. He should elusion• •
lion power, lost no opportunityof • • •
vilifying and
.

not remove the Magistrates—nor indeed could the Lord ;
Chancellor, except on sufficient cause. His Lordship had,
moreover, only appointed 22 clergymen. That it was
right to put Clergymen in in the Magistracy he (Sir E.
Wilmot) did not say. Nor did Lord Warwick make aI!
.• . . _

practice of it. He had not, in fact, done it lately. Still
justice was due to all parties, and it was but fair to publish
this explanation.
Mr. HUME said what he objected to was that the Jus-
tices, who were not elected, should have the selection of
the police. If the Bill were not temporary he should
object to it altogether.
Mr. EWA RT gave notice that he would move his
proposition on the Report.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion
Against it l4
Majority for going into Committee —7l
The House then resolved itself into Committee on the
It