The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-18 00:00:00

THE CIVIL SERVICE.

Mr, HENNESSY, on the motion for going into Com-
IA nice of Supply, moved that an humble address he pre-

seated to her Majesty in favour of open competition for the
junior appointments in the Civil Service.
Mr. COCHRANE moved, as an amendmen , to leave
out "open competition," and insert "an approves test ex-
amination."
The hon. gentleman caused some langht y mention-
ing a few of the subjects on which the ca es were ex-
amined.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the elementary mode of examination pursued.
IRELAND—PARTY EMBLEMS ACT.
Mr. MAGUIRE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether his attention had been called to the fact that the
Party Emblems Act had been violated, on the 12th July,
in Lisburn, Belfast, and other parts of Ulster, and if riots,
involving injury to persons and property, had not been the
result ?

Sir R. PEEL regretted that occurrences of the kind had
taken place, and he had reason to believe that the news-
paper accounts had been somewhat exaggerated. Of late
years such exhibitions had ben subsiding, and he trusted
to the good feeling of Belfast and other towns not to en-
courage violations of the law.
NEW ZEALAND I OAN BILL.
In reply to Sir LI. WILLOUGHBY,
Mr. FORTESCUE said that he would take occasion on

the second rePcling of this bill to make a sta ement With re
specs to its provisions, but he did not ,hink the occasian to
be such as to call for the production of papers.
DISTURBANCES IN NEW ZEALAND.

Mr. .A.l‘7llllSTeggecl to ask whether any reports had
been received at the Colonial Office, confirming the news
appearing in the papers of that morning, with respect to the
outbreak of disturbances in New Zealand.
Mr. FORTESCUE said they had received a despatch
which, he was sorry to say, confirmed in the main the
accounts published in the morning papers respecting the
outrage committed by a body. oi natives in the vicinity of
Taranaki, and that there would be no objection to produce
a portion of the papers.
THE CIVIL SERVICE.

On the order for going into committee of supply,
- Mr. HENNESSY moved that an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty in favour of open competition for the
junior appointments in the civil service The hon. member
~aid that under the present system of patronage the Uo-
verament had actually increased. In 1862, as compared
with 1861, the number of competitive examinations had de-
clined. In 1861 the tots' nominations by Government
withodt compettive examinations was 228, and in 1862
they were 396. In 1861 53 per cent of those who were
' examined for Government appointments were examined
under a system of limited competition, but in 1862 the
number fell to 42. As for open competition, that was prac-
L tically at an end, and now no minister would give a single
appointment in that way, In the War Office, in 1861, only
;.wo vacancies were filled up by the direct nomination of the
chief of the department, whereas in 1862 82 vacancies were
thus filled up. The public, as well as the members of that
house, had been deluded, and at that moment the patronage
of the Government was actually increased instead of being
diminished, in comparison with what it was in former times.
In reality, for each appointment, the ecretary to the Trea-
sury was able to make three nominations. It was the
opinion of no less an authority than Sir John M'lver that
open competition was the best means of filling the junior
appointments to the civil service. Mr. Chester, who was a
retired civil servant, expressed a similar opinion before the
committee. As he saw no other remedy for the present
state of things, he begged to move the address which he had
placed in the hands of the Speaker.
Mr. B. COCHRANE regretted that his hen. friend
should have so soon again brought on this question; and
he did so the more, as all the information he was able to
collect tended to show that the system did not work well,
and that competition was detrimental to the public ser-
vice. Unless it could be shown that important advantages
resulted from the system, he thought it would be undesir-
able to extend it. Were they prepared to give up 105,000
places to the commissioners ? It was no wonder that the
people who met Lord Brougham in the streets should raise
their hands in astonishment, and ask whether the people
were mad who had made such a proposal. (The hon. mem-
ber then read various questions from the examination papers
to be proposed to candidates in different departments, and
so rapid was the transition from one subject to another that
considerable amusement was created both by the reading of
the questions and the running comments upon them.) He
had not read those questions for the sake of casting ridicule
upon the examiners, but in order to show the absurdity of
putting questions of such a nature to boys intending to
qualify themselves for various public employments. The
only place where such a system was carried out was in
China, and he hoped they were not going to take a lesson
from the Chinese as to the best manner of appointing per-
sons to public offices. There were many qualifications for
offices which no examination could test. As the Duke of
Wellington said, " Give me discipline, and not learning ;"
and when his hon. friend asked to have the system of open
competition applied to every office in the country that it was
a very doubtful policy to pursue. The hon. member then
read the words of his amendment—namely, to leave out the
words " open competition," and insert "an improved test
examination."

The SPEAKER said it was not competent for the hon.
member to move an amendment upon an amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon, gentleman who spoke lest recurred to his umual prac-

tice of reading, for the amusement of the house, the
various questions proposed to candidates in several classes
of examination, but it appeared to him that most, if not
all these questions could be justified ; and although the hon.
member used some skill in the mode of reading the ques
tions, still he thought the arrangement proved the wisdom
of those who framed them, as they were intended to bring
out the mental powers of the candidates. It was altogether
a mistake to suppose that the success of the candidates de-
pended solely upon these miscellaneous qmestioes. The main
point aimed at was to see that the candidates had received a
good elementary education; but as the candidates might
come out at a dead level in reading, writing, and arithmetic
it was proposed, as a means of testing their mental powers
generally, that they should be examined upon subjects of a
wider range. The hen. member for King's County in open-
ing the discussion, stated that patronage was gaining ground
itnrecgornetdriandgisintinetcetaiod of contradistinction to competition, and that things were re-
preomgrpelsosyiendn progressing But
47
offices,th ey
whilehad the
it fact
was
that competition was
only not in use in 26 ; and under all the circumstances he
thought he was authorised in saying that upon the whole
there was a state of progress and not retrogression.
Mr. MAGUIRE complained that the Government were
exercising a larger amount of patronage than they had done
before, in defiance of the resolution of the house. He thought
it was hard that men holding a certain rank in their neigh-
bourhood were not granted the right of nomination to these
examinations. He was 11 year,. a member of Parliament,
and he never applied but twice for a nomination.
Mr. G. BENTINCK agreed in two points with the hon.
member for King's County : that disappointment had fol-
lowed the establishment of the system, and that the pa-
tronage of the Government had not been diminished by
it. The examiners were wise in selecting the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer for their champion; but he ven-
tured to say that if the system had been in force in former
times Wellington Would not have been a soldier, nor Nel-
son a sailor, nor Watt an engineer.
Mr. CLAY expressed his belief that a number of nomi-
nations were given to several parties of eminence in various
parts of the country, notwithstanding what had fallen from
the hon. member for Dungarvan. He was an advocate of
the system of competition for three years, and was prepared
to vote with the hon. member, but he would rather recom-
mend him not to press it to a division on the present occa.
•

SiOn.
Mr. MILNES said the system had not been so suee
as had been represented by some hon. members. The new
servants were cleverer when they entered the service than
they ware under the old system, but they did not know
more after they had been appointed a short time than those
who were nominated under the old system. Of course there
was a residum of bad civil servants under the old system,
which could not be avoided, and who it was desirable to get
rid of. He, however, thought the new system would be de-
ficient in that proper esprit de corps that should prevail
amongst them, and that they would become extremely dis-
contented and unhappy persons in the position in which
they were placed. Competition shuts out the poor man, be-
cause it was now a matter of money—that man who could
pay for cramming being generally the successful candidate.
It was neither a satisfactory nor a healthy state of things.
Lord PALMERSTON said he could not concur with the
fundamental principle on which the hon. member for King's
County had founded his motien. The hon. member seemed
to think that employment in the Queen's service ought to be
7,matter that anybody might claim who showed a fitness for
, but he conceived that, ace, rding to the constitution of the
country,
efidn thoseeof who were honoured by the Crown with its
wereth reescpronwsnib,lseufbojreofitlltiongthuepir atallkinthgegooffiod ocesair:
thennservice
that no one should be appointed to an office for which he was
nit,neoilsth
i gal
tuxa
imiaeda to show
qualified. It
Itaared to him that the present system
appointment
thosei conditions,
thlanttahepefirrasotnpwlahoeo, theatphperheedwfaosran
possessed sufficient acquirements to entitle
him to be a competitor with others. The competitive exami-
nation was to ascertain who of a 'certain number was the
fittest
tap egres,onhefotrhothueghtz
woulappointment.d So far from it being an
a considerably larger number of
and world
competitors than there were
be a great hardship to have
,:warlmdabne like the old story of
appointments to be made,
er t
0, v ander onlywhich
the foreigner about the race,
one to win"—(hear)—and Cause airgreaytetrorasnt:
hlle considered
greater
hear.)enon
led to craln-
tthoreseprceoamdpdaitsaitoprpsoifnotrmeenact.h
v(
enablefort
the
a t h eexaminers to ascertain who was the fittest
soon. lost.
pgarlanton
ap-
pointment. It was said that the syqsnteirmedonwy
allh comps.
eBsosenatcial elemenats.
an n
ig cram-
ming,
was,that
however,know l knowledge g
ane
InCri
titions, (Hear.) Why, for a boat race the menulw
were
had to
pull were crammed—(laughter)—that was, they
in training for a month or a fortnight beforehand ; ehren!?aut
were also crammed for racing—(laughter)—they were:
crammed with corn—(laughter)—and they were practised in
the exertion of their muscles—;laughter)—and even for a
pugilistic encounter the men were crammed—that was to
say, they were trained for the contest. (Loud laughter.)
At the universities cramming took place. It was an ezerciat

of the faculties of the mind, and although a great deal of
actual knowledge which was imbibed did not remain, yet
every man who had gone through an examination knew the
habit of mental exertion that cramming gave lasted aftei-
wards, and was of use to them in after life. (Hear.) No
reasonable objection could be taken to competitive examina-
tion on the ground that it required previous preparation.
Objection had been taken to the system of nominations for
competition by the hon. member for Dungarvan on the
ground that theywere not open to every one, himself amongst
the number. They lived in a country which had a Parlia-
mentary constitution, and governments must maintain
themselves
di ni
tParliamentbut
tbuyr
st hl et
hsautptphoeryt
sohf
otuhledi rr
af
trhi eenrdfse—e
l
disposed to comply with requests made by their friends with
those made by hon. gentlemen who were going to vote
against them and turn them out of office a week after.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) There was nothing, ne
thought, out of human nature in such arrangement, and in
decliningto
watofhHowo give gentlemen opposed to the Giwernment of
the day a right to demand favours of that Government.
(Hear, hear.) It night be said that these nominations and
appointments ought to be given to respectable persons—
without regard to political consideration—(hear, hear)—
and as an illustration of that he begged to state that last
year he gave a nomination for competition for clerkship to
the son of afrtoi
ehstrTpwhheeoehefnerGui
raasrl
esyoont
abyndopimeipeiiwrnpertnanehgo:
nnostonioedaeodpsnnwhwpttee:aoadssneceiGooeutdrouootaplthvtsafpoeael oartttaasnhti
seedemcpsdr
uoreGhe
oudrntyeoool
Government
t tsehtct hrbohuetneenona
hmdtdgopeheerwnrsruai
condescended
mepetunwennoydedaltemi,
was not
ieGo-
vernment.a obli-
gationlnbe theneot
member
for Dungarvan that if he would condescend at any time to
express a wish in favour of one of his constituents, that
wish would receive the best attention of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He had always
been an advocate for the competitive system, and he was
convinced it was one that worked well, and would ensure
good and proper persons to be employed in the different de-
partments of the public service. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY agreed in the main with what the noble
lord had stated, but he differed from him in regard to his
analogy in reference to the race horse, the pugilist, the
rower, and those severe studies they went through at the
university, which he quite agreed with the noble lord,
trained the mind and left behind it a power which nothing
afterwards would deprive the possession of ; and that
vicious system of cramming which was adopted as a test
for Government employment, but which was not a test, but
a mere chance. (Hear, hear.) The competitive sys em,
however, he thought, had not had time enough to allow
them to come to a sound opinion on the matter. It was

working fairly, but so far it was only an experiment, and
. .

opinions as to the result differed. He considered it would
be unwise to push it to a greater extent until after they had
had greater experience of its working
Mr. O. GR LFFITH said that the noble lord's state-
ment that nominations were an exercise of patronage fot
the support of the Government of the day was incom-
patible with the establishment of the system; and from
facts that had gradually crept out it would appear
that competitive examinations had trebled the patronage
of the Government. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord's state-
ment with reference to the complaint of the hon. member
for Dungarvan was particularly inapplicable to the state of
parties in that house. There were more gentlemen on his
own side of the house who were likely to displace him than
there were on the Opposition side of the house. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He protested against Government
being carried on by the exercise of patronage.
_ _

The house then divided. The numbers were—
For Mr. Hennessy's motion ... .. 37
Against it llB
Majority — 81
STREET MUSIC.

Mr. BASS called the attention of the Secretary of State
for the Home Department to street music in the metropolis,
and moved that it was expedient to reconsider the law on
this matter at the earliest opportunity. He said street
music was now becoming so troublesome that it was desir •
able the law should be more definitely known than was the
case at present. From early morn, half-past 7 o'clock, till
late at night, 11 o'clock, they were subjected to these inces-
sant discords. (Laughter.) Bands were continually play-
ing in all directions—north, south, east, and west. The
other day, when he called en Sir R. Mayne, in Eaton-
square, he found a band playing onhis door-step. (Laughter.)
He afterwards crossed to the south side of the square, and
there he found another band. (Laughter.) On the north
side he found a third band, and when he got to Eaton-place
he found a fourth band playing. (Laughter.) There they
were, playing away at the same time—all sorts of wretched
instruments, and out of tune—blast and counter blast—
from one side of the square to the other ; and it was
ridiculous to call the discordant sounds that met the ear
in every direction music—(hear, hear)—and it was pre-
posterous to contend that it could be advantageous to
any one. Their noise was a serious inconvenience to the
transaction of business and the occupations of literary
and scientific men; and Mr. Babbage's case was an illus-
tration of what Fuch men suffered from the nuisance of
those btreet bands. A greater part of the day those persons
had to discontinue their studies ; and Mr. Babbage told
him that one-quarter of his time was lost a day owing to
the annoyance of those bands. He had been interrupted in
his calculations 182 times in one day—(hear, and laughter)
—and it was a fact that persons were driven from the town
owing to the torments they suffered from those noisy per-
sons. The bands were composed of foreigners hired by
people who make a livelihood cut of 'heir blowing and
scraping. laughter.) In fact, they were beggars, and in
that sense being mendicants by law we ought to have the
power of putting an end to the nuisance. He was assured
by Sir R Mayne that the late Lord Canning, before going
to India, committed a serious error in an important despatch
owing to the playing of a street band in front of his lord-
ship's house. (Laughter.) He was surprised to find that
any one was in favour of this nuisance. He was n. t one of
those hon. members who were detained at the house till
near four o'cloc.. that morning. He got home to bed about
one o'clock, but he was disturbed that morning about half-
past seven o'clock out of his first sleep by the noise of one
of thote bands playing under his window—(laughter)—and
during the three or four hours that he was engaged about
his correspondence, four different bands came and played
in front of his house, and he had to move from front to
rear, and from rear to front, to try to get peace and quiet-
ness. (Laughter.) It was said that these people being
paid by the public was proof that the latter enjoyed the
abominable music. He disputed it, because during the
time the bands were about the streets the working classes
were engaged in business, and those who were not, and
had a musical taste, looked upon these wandering min-
strels with horror and disgust. The real promoters and
encouragers of this discord were children and nurse girls.
(Laughter.) The hon. member urged that some altera-
tion was necessary in the law to protect those whose busi-
ness avocations and studies rendered the noises hideous
and distracting to them. The present law was not adequate
to deal with the subject.
The SPEAKER informed the hoh. gentleman that hi,
resolution, as woraed, could not be put as an amendment to
the motion for going into supply.
Mr. BASS said that, as he could not go to a division upon
it, he woild take it that the house was unanimously in
favour of his resolution. (Laughter.)

Lord FERMOY said the present law was sufficiently
stringent to deal with this matter, and the hon. member
found Mr. Babbage had put it in force, and the magistrate
had, in his (Lord Fermoy's) opinion, unjustifiably punished
a great many poor musicians. It was no doubt disagreeable
to Mr. Babbage, and also to the hon. member, who must
allow that he had a dislike for music.
Mr, BASS—No. (Laughter,)

Lord FERMOY—But he must permit other people to
have their tastes, and to enjoy them. He was not aware
until he heard his hon. friend describe its pleasures, that
Be'gravia was such a musical place to walk in. (Laughter.)
If the bands were not enjoyed by some one they would not
exist; and he did not see why the house should be called to
interfere and put down a thing just because certain persons
objected to it. The bands dealt professionally with the sub-
ject. They played for the people, and the people paid them,
and the fact of there being such a number of bands daily in
Belgravia showed that the aristocracy had a wish and desire
to hear them. (No, no.) They paid for it; and where it was
objectionable there was no* an instance that the men had
not moved on when requested so to do. Many persons no
doubt objected to brewers' drays in the street, because they
often frightened gentlemen's horses ; but that was no rea
son why they should be prohibited from going through the
town in the middle of the day, in the pursuit of their legi-
timate occupation. The truth was, that nobody took any
interest in the amusements of the middle and working
classes ; and if there were public places appointed where
music might be played, there would not be so many com-
plaints of music playing in the streets.
Mr. C. BENT I N C K hoped something
ath wouldboeachr
it
ivhoeionr y; i
of
of
f. ouhoipitnes,
a band at each end, and a troupe
I be done to remedy the evil alluded to. Ile had the mis
midwaywit with
in sthqueanreei
clear, as a matter ofg la:
of
ofarcsivt u nabneed
was
r geosfmitdeeinnisnt
minstrels
street rde etat
own house. It was i .
p aying in the area of his own house,any
he would be indictable
band
for a nuisance, and according to
the principles of law, justice,
had a right to do that in the
and common sense he con-
tended not legally do on his own
open street which he co
thata street
n o
person
music, and
man
ke
premises.pt
peruse his papers and
he got to
said that the only leisure
morning, or after eleven
briefs was before breakfast in the
naolatomoooanmpleinid. of the street
street bands were
AHLe I
didN S
(Hear.)
to say that the
at l‘nlirg.hMt.
,I was intolerable.
all bad, but that the organ-grin-mg
Mr. BRUCE, in reply to the hon.
member, said it was
he large crowds seen
about them, that the children and the poor o
treatment. There was no doubt, from t
of the East-end
a very difficult question, and one that required delicacy of
of London derived much amusement from those strolling
bands.
Row, then, could they purpose to put down one
band and not the others ? He did not think many persons
would be so hard-hearted, or if so the remedy seemed worse
than the disease.
Sir J. SHELLEY quoted the case of the park music as a
proof that there was no (Eau, to popular music on the part
of the inhabitants of the metropolis. He was the treasurer