The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-10 00:00:00

himself new toaik that yeses of it. With respect to
the other parts of the Bill, the Noble Leril dia
net s=tew( to make any strong cbj etion to the
amendments made. There were enly three points
totieh.•el by the amendineuts—the franchise, the question
relating to the freemen, and those clauses relating to the
privilege with with respect to Grand Juries. With regard
to the freemen's question that [Luse had agreed last year
to the Lords' amendment% by adding a long pro-
viso, which proviso the Lords also agreed to.
The third point merited consideration inasmuch as it made
a complete change in the law on that subject. This was
really a new question. It was introduced in Committee,
and formed no part of the origin,) Bill and it was not un-
reasoneble in the House of Lords not to agree to it. He
did rot think there were any other impediments in the way.
Sir R. INGLIS consider, d that the present Bill was
against every principle of the Constitution. He thought
the Noble Lord instead of postponing it till Monday,
ought to postporm it to the most distant day.
He considered the measure to be one of unmixed evil.
Mr. O'CO NNE Lls did not at all mean to endeavour to
reconcile the difference between the Right Hon. Baronet
and the Hon. Gentleman.—( A laugh.) He did not think
this Bill was unmixed evil, but he considered that there was
a great deal of evil in it. He protested against any idea
going abroad that Ireland was not entitled to the same
measure of Corporate Reform as England. -•( Hear.)
If there was a union between the two countries, there
ought .to be a political equality. The corporations had
never assumed a sacred character except in the eyes of the
Hon. Baronet, who imagined them to be models of
religion, and the promoters of Christianity, by the excess
of their virtues r n i the admirable example which they set.
Now, this being a mere political right, there was no pre-
tence for keeping it from the people of Ireland. The
Learned Recorder for Dublin had pressed the Bill strongly
on the Government, but his recommendation was not likely
to reconcile the people of Ireland t• it. It was impossible
that the people of Ireland could be content that there
should be a tit franchise in England, and a 101. franchise
in Ireland—With having one law of the freemen's franchise
here, end another there. Under these circumstances, he
rose to protest against being supposed to consider that the
oeople of Ireland would consent to be deprived of that
which the people of England possessed.
The further consideration of the Bill was then postponed
until Monday next.
MANCHESTER POLICE BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the Manchester Police Bill.
Mr. G RIM SDITCH wished the Noble Lord to post-
pone the Bill until Monday next. Many of the respectable
inhabitants were hostile to it, and as it had hen brought
in without any notice they ought to have a full opportunity
of considering it.
Lord .J. RUSSELL could not consent to postpone the
Bill. There were many of the inhabit arts in favour of the
Bill as well as against it.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON said a few words,
which were inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. C. BULLER said, that if he should unhappily say
what had been said before in the course of the debate, or
if he should advance arguments which had been previously
answered, he trusted that the House would attribute it to
the true cause, namely, that the debate had been hitherto
carried on in such a low tone of voice that no hum in
being could hear what was said. He wished to ask the
Speaker if it was conformable to the rules of the House
that debates should be carried on in such a tone that people
could not hear what was said.—( A laugh.) The grounds
assigned for introducing these Bills for abolishing popular
control in the different new Boroughs of England was that
a dispute had been raised by certain persons as to the
validity of the Charters. It was unfortunate that no
legal opinion on the subject had been given to the
Crown except by that eminent law officer of the Crown
the President of the Board of Trade—( A laugh)—but
seeing the lion. and Learned Member for Edinburgh in
his place, he would put these questions to him as Attor-
ney-General. What was the state of the question as
to the charters of Manchester and Birmingham ? Was
it disputed that they were legal Corporations ? Wei
the validity of the appointment of the Magistrates dis-
puted? or did the dispute only extend to the single power
of levying rates? Because when the case was first
stated to the House, it was stated that the charters were
not disputed ; that the Town Councils of Birmingham, of
Manchester, and of Bolton were as good as any Town
Councils in the kingdom, and the only dispute was as to
the power of levying rates. Now if the fact were that the
Town Councils were good, and possessed all the authority
given by Charters of Incorporations, and that it was only
owing to a defect in the Act, that they could not extend
to the power of levying rates, why was rot the
first Bill regarding Birmingham perfectly sufficient ?
—( Hear, hear.) This did not settle the legal ques-
tion, but it gave the power of levying rates for a
specific purpose. He thought the Government could not do
better, if this were the case, than go back to their old Bill.
But if the Attorney-General said the charter was dis.
puted in all its points, that would be a better ground for
the present Bill than any he had yet heard. He should
like to know if the charters ,vere altogether disputed?
The AT TO N E ENER A L was very imperfectly
acquainted with the state of the dispute regarding these
charters. His opinion was that the charters in omnibus were
perfectly valid, and that it stou!ti be so decided by the Court
of Queen's Bench. In answer to the question of his Hon.
and Learned Friend, although it was not customary for
one lawyer to ask questions of another, and altnough he
thought his Hon. and Learned Friend might have look( d
at the Act of Parliament and judged for himself, he would
state that under the 141st section of the Municipal Corpo-
rations Act power had been given to the Crown to create
new Corporations, having all the power which bad been
confided to the old Corporations. Under ibis section charteri
had been granted to D::voutiort, to Birmingham, to Man-
chester, and to Belton. The Devonport charter had net
been disputed, :he Birmingham and Manchester Charters
had been disputed, because it was alleged, with respect to
certain particulars, they were not in conformity with the
Act of Parliament. Ali he could say was, that the char-
ters had been prepared ,with the greatest care by a person
of great experience in those matters—but they were new,
and he should like to know what new charter or what
new Act of Parliament there could be on which legal doubts
could not be raised ? The great question was not as to the
validity of the charters, but as to the power of levying a
Borough.rate, although he would not say how frer these
objections might go as to the validity of the charters
themselves ; but his opinion was that these corporations
possessed all the powers belonging to the old corporations.
Until that question was decided there would be a direct
resistance to the payment of .the rate. All the overseers
had refused to pay a shilling either in Manchester or Bir-
mingham, and than fore it was utterly impossible that any
funds could be raised either for paying the police or any
other purpose. With respect to the Magistracy no doubt
could be raised of their power, because tUey did not hold
their office under the charter at all. It was now admitted
on all hands that there was a concurrent jurisdictiun on the
part of the County Magistrates.

• Sir R. INGLIS differed from the opinion of the At-
torney.Goneral, because it vrag opposed to the opinion of
Sir W. Follett and Sir F. Pollock.

Tne ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that those two
Learned Gent! •men had only stated that the question was
doubtful. but thcr had intimated no opinion.
Mr. BOLLING said it the Bill did not prejudice the
question of law now under the consideration of the Court,
he would give his vote for the second reading.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know why this Bill
was not to be treated as a private Bill ? It was a local
Act ; there was a distinction between this Act and that
for Birmingham, because, in the latter, money was
wanted. Sometime since a Bill was brought in with re-
spect to the Liverpool Police. and that was treated as
a private Bill. He did not see why Manchester should not
take the expenses of the Bill upon its own c.houlders. He
was most anxious to bear the opinion of the Chair upon the
subject.

The SPEAKER Raid if the Bill had been sought by
the inhabitints of Manche,ter, and they had the appoint-
ment of the chief constables there, it would have been a
Private Bill. But the Chief Commissioner under the
Bill was to be appointed by the Crown, and therefore it
could not be considered a. 4 a Private Bill.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill would not at all prr.
judice the question as to the validity of the Charter. As
to the peace of the town of Bolton being secured by
special constables he was quite willing to admit that in
case of a sudden emergency, as the breaking out of a riot,
they might come forward and efficiently perform their duty,
but he did not think that the peace of the town could be
permanently preserved unless there was a permanent con.
stabulary force. For there were many dutios to be per-
formed by such a force, which it would be irksome, and
indeed intolerable, to the special constables to have imposed
upon them.
Mr. G RI NI S'DITCH hoped that the Noble Lord wouli
give the inhab tanta of Manchester time to consider the
subject. The Bill appeared to him very objectionable in
principle. After what had passed, he trusted that the
Noble Lord would postpone the Bill to a distant day—
( Laughter)—that is, Tuesday or Wednesday. In M.in-
chester there was already an efficient police.—( No,
no r' from Mr. Brotherton. ) He would not dispute
the veracity of his Honourable Friend the Member for
Salford, but certainly he bad heard what he had stated
as the fact from good authority. He should not
however oppose the second reading, reserving his opposi-
tion to a future stage.
Mr. G. WOOD said it was his intention to support the
second reading of the Bill, in the belief that it would in no
way prejudice those legal questions which had been raised in
the Courts of Law, between the advocates and the oppo-
nents of the Charter. The state of those questions bad
been so amply explained by the Learned Attorney_ General
that it would ill become him to advert more to it. But as
to the necessity of Farliam!nt making some provision for
the police force in Manchester, he thought no one
fully acquainted with the condition of the town could
entertain any doubt. Some Honourable Members had
stated that there was now a police in the town, with ample
and was s
pecuniary means for its support. He entirely dissented
.from the accuracy of that statement. There was the old
body of Commissioners, in number 240, who before the char-
ter
the chartergh
granted had provided the police of the town by day
empowered by Parliament to levy for that purpose. When
t beenhheaeden se
expenses
being
granted,d
night,
eafnrdayaedcboyuancrate they were,
Council appointed,
they concurred
that they were entitled 'to levy the rate and
provide for the l' o ice force, and that the powers of the
old CommissionersPßeform Act. huswere superseded under the Municipal
T
the two parties were directly at
issue, each claiminthe police rate. g
tilte exclusive right of levying
ink which of the Bt t the inhabitants, not know.
bad resolved, with that shrewdness would be legal,
matters especially distinguishss which upon ;monetary
the question had been deter c 4
them—to pay neither till
the Council issued their preemeplated—( A laugh.) When
to
pay over the requisite sum for the the
proper parties to maintenance of the force,
the legal process was forcibly resisted. The Churchwarden
against whom there bai been directed the
had, succeeded in ejecting the officers distress warrant,
possession,
a violent mob assembled, and the peace of tihoernto
.a considerable time endangered. , Unless the House made.
for
de pror.stou for this anomalous state of things the polinleea of
Manchester would soon be put an end to. Th
--e
Bill seemed