The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-05 00:00:00

EVENING EDIT ION•

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brutal border war.—(Cheers.) Until that was done
there never would be peace, and while it was allowed to
continue. it was laying the elements of discord between the
two countries. The question of a Union of the Canadas
was a most difficult problem to solve, for in fact, there was
no proposition made, they were in no better condition with
respect to Canada than they were five years ago. This
he was perfectly convinced of, that as they had abandoned
all settlement of the question this year, the first thing they
did next Session should be to come to a determination, to
decide whether there should be a Union cr not, or which
should be the principle on what those Colonies were to
oe governed.—( Hear, hear.) it was in vain to talk of
Bills' for a Union, unless the blouse was informed of the
I terms and conditions on which that Union was to be
effected, and unless they were fully acquainted with the
feelings of the people in Upper and Lower Canada, and
what probability there was of giving satisfaction to 03e
Canadians. He would not express any opinion upon
the principle of the Union, not wi=Ping then to
provoke a discussion, but he trusted not a week would
elapse on the re-assembling of Parliament before they de-
.

termineal on what course should be adopted. did not
intend to object to the second reading. There were some
portions of the Bill he approved of, but he altogether sus-
p•nded his judgment on the clauses, and reserved to him-
self the entire power of taking whatever course he might
think fit.

Lord .IOIIN RUSSELL did not wish to enter more
than necessary into the discussion of the Bill in its present
stage, as the 'different clauses would be fully considered in
Committee, and he should then be ready to discuss any
clause which might be considered objectionable. The
Hon. Member for Liskeard bad said that the Government
were anxious to avoid any discussion on the subject. It
might have been unwise to ask any expression of the opinion
of the House with respect to the principle of the union
either on the resolution or on the second reading of the
Bill, but any course more like avoiding discussion could
not be taken. The Hon. Member for Liskeard had also
commented en the statement of the Committee of the As-
sembly of Upper Canada ; but when he ( Lord John Rus.
sell) saw these comments, it only induced him the more to
regret that the Government Lad not had an opportunity,
before the meeting of Parliament, of reading the documents
of Lord Durham, as they were sure to lead to comments
on the other side. He would not now, as he had said
before, enter into the general merits of the Bill, but would
state generally his views of the necessity of a Bill of
this kind. His opinion was decidedly in favour of the
union. But before it took place it was wise and politic
to take every possible means for the improvement of Lower
Canada, to increase her resources and population, to en-
courage cutup, ise in the laying out of money on the ex-
tension of roads, &c. The Act of last year imposed such
. .

obstacles to acts of this kind, that t was necessary Parlia-
ment should take measure,: to remove these obstacles. He
would postpone any further observations until the Bill was
in Committee,
Mr. E. ELLICE said that Lower Canada had been for
the last two years in a state of distressing inactivity. Com-
mercial enterprise had been suspended, and emigrants
could not find employment there or establish themselves
there with the hope of obtaining employment on public
corks. There were parties in 143%er Caiiada willing to
er;,°r into speculations for the establishment of railroads

betvvoen Upper and Lower Canada. There were other
parties willing to enter into contracts with the Go-
vernment to continue the canals opened by the
Legislature of Upper Canada, to connect that
navigation with the ocean. Every one of these works were
of the utmost importance, and they were more especially so
where it was necessary to give employment to the mass of
the population—where it was expedient to distract men's
attention from the horrible scenes in which they had been en-
gaged. He wished the Right Hon. Baronet opposite would
take into consideration the deplorable state to which the
country was reduced, and in which it must continue if they
,iid not give legislative means of promoting works required
for the improvement of the country. He was convinced
that :tie settlement of this question could not long be de-
„ld we ought to convince the people of Canada that
layed,
we took a deep interest in their welfare, otherwise they
would perhaps have no colonies to unite. He hoped early
next Session there would be a general assent to a Bill of
that nature. If it was made a party measure it would be
merely a waste of time to deliberate upon it.—( Hear,
hear.) If the measure was not sent out with the appear-
ance of a firm determination to settle the matter in dispute
in that colony, it would not have the slightes t chance of suc-
cess. He thought the better plan would be to send the Bill
next Session to a Select Committee up stairs, composed of
Members of all parties, and then to pass it through a Com-
mittee of the whole House, when it would have a much
better chalice of success and of obtaining what was so de-
sirable, the general assent of the House.—( Hear.)
air C. GREY objected ,to the principle of giving the
Governor and Council of Canada the power or raising taxes
to be applied to the formation of canals, railways, and other
public works through the province. It was a point which
that House should very gravely and anxiously consider be-
fore it gave its assent to it. Canada had never yet been
subjected to local taxation for such purposes, and the House
should well consider what was the nature of the tenements
and lands upon which the taxation would fall. They should
also weigh well what would be the effect of enforcing by
distress or otherwise the payment of these local taxes for
the first time, upon the inhabitants of the districts in which
these works were being carried on. He should certainly
enter his protest against that principle.
Mr. L A 1:30 UC HE RE assured the Hon. Member that
it was after the most mature and anxious deliberation that
the Government Sad decided upon giving to the Governor
and Council the power of local taxation. After having
had proof of the abeolute stagnation of industry arising
from the want of means of communication in the colony,
the Government had reso!ved upon remedying the defect
in the manner proposed. 'rhey bad had had ample evi-
dence of the injury inflicted on the industry and commerce
of the colony, and they felt that they would be wanting in
their duty if they suffei e I it to remain in its present state.
With respect to the charges which bad been brought
against the Gallant Officer, to whom reference had been
made, in the report of Lord Durham, he thought it would
have been most unfair to that Gallant Officer if they had
not made his defence public.—(Hear, hear.) He would
never sanction any proceeding which would deprive that
Gallant Officer of every means of defending himself.—
( Hear.) He would only make one observation upon the
petition referred to by the Hon. Member for Westminster,
and which reflected upon the conduct of Sir John Col- I
borne and the British troops in Canada. The Government
had no disposition to shrink from the discussion of that
petition. It had been referred to Sir John Colborne, from
whom art answer had just been received, and a more com-
plete and satisfactory defence, as well of ,himself as of
the British troops, no person could desire.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) He could not say that no evil would arise
front not legislatjug for Canada during the present Ses-
sion. He regretted that circumstances had compelled the
Government to abanolon that intention, and the Right
Hon. Gentleman oppos'jte (Sir H. Peel) must take the
responsibility upon his own shoulders. If Parliament had
pronounced its opinion upon the details of the measure—
namely, the principle of a union of the two provinces, the
establishment of Municipal Corporations in the Colony
upon an equitable arrangement—if the Bill had gone out to
Canada, not only with the sanction of the Government,
but with the higher sanction and authority of the House, it
would have been a considerable step to the settlement of
the affairs of these Provinces.—( Hear, hear.) The truth
was, the people of that country were most anxious to come
to a satisfactory settlement of the differences between
themselves and the mother country. Since the Bill had
been laid upon the table of the House, he had seen many
persona connected with the Colony who had assured
him that the Bill was generally approved of, and it was
his (Mr. Lahouchere's) sanguine hope, that when the Bill
was sent out to Canada that it would be received in the
same spirit in which it was framed and from the basis of
a satisfactory adjustment of the affairs of that province.
Sir R. PEEL did not shrink from the responsibility of
not having permitted the Bill to go to a second reading;
but he begged to remind the Hon. Gentleman that since
then the Noble Lord (J. Russell) had stated that from the
despatches lately received from the Governor of Lower
Canada, it would have been excedingly premature and un-
wise, and throw great difficulties in the way of the settle-
ment of the question, if any discussion of the measure had
taken place.
Mr. LA BO UCHERE explained. He understood his
Noble Friend to say that it would have been inexpedient
to cairy the Bill daring the present Session.
After a few words from Mr. E. ELLICE and Sir CHAS.
GREY in explanation,
The Bill was read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted on Thursday next.
ORANGEISM IN CANADA.

Mr. HUME begged to ask whether after the address to
his late Majesty on the subject of Orange Lodges had
been adopted by that House, any instructions had been
sent out by the Government to Canada? He understood
that Orangeism had been a source of great evil and
annoyance there.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said no instruction's had been
sent out, and he was not aware that any complaints had
been made of the existence of Orange`Lodges for the last
two years.
Mr. HUME said there was an address from the House
of Assembly to the Governor, on the subject of Orange
processiocks, on the 12th July.
Mr. L A.llO UC HERE was understood to say that was
two or three years ago.
Sir R. PEEL said her Majesty had sent a message to
that House, recomnseuding to them the consideration of
the affairs of Canada. Now, if they had proceeded to
legislation on the subject, that would have been taking her
Majesty's message into their particular consideration. It
was perhaps worth cons.Wering
riot
whether they should
send an answer to the addrss.—( Hear, arid a laugh.)
Lord STANLEY asked whether it was intended that
the Canada Bill should take precedence of all other busi-
ness on Thursday ?
Mr. LABO UCH E RE was unable to answer the Noble
Lord's question.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
The House then, on the motion of Lord MORPETH,
went into Committee on the Municipal Corporations (Ire_
land) Bill.
Lord MORPETH proposed they should commence
with clause 20, where they had left off on the former
evening.
Mr. SHAW said it was the general opinion among the
Irish members that at that late period of the Session the
Bill would not be proceeded with. He should, however,
briefly state to the House his objections to clause 20, that
now under consideration, which was the franchise clause,
and in his opinion, the most important in the Bill. He
should state to the Committee what was the qualification
proposed by the Bill, and what was the nature of the quail-
4#eation he proposed to substitute as an amendment. The
ILualification proposed by the Bill was two-fold—first, that
the ensuing three years the qualification shall be any
went of the yearly value of ri/.—that there shall be six
the' residence as an inhabitant householder, and a pay-
!milt of taxes within six months previous to the time of vot-
,oing. That was the first franchise. The second franchise,
ZieNch would come into operation in three years, was—the
occuinancy of any tenement, no matter what value, provided
it were rated to the relief of the poor, with a like stipula-
tion as regarded residence and payment of taxes.

He (Mr. Shaw) proposed to substitute for these
a 10/. franchise computed on the net yearly value
of the tenement, with twelve months' occupancy and only
three months' arrcar in the payment of taxes instead of
six. Now, with respect to the last proposition in the Bill,
he thought it extremely absurd to legislate for what was
not to come into operation for three years, or until the year
1842, Would it not be quite time enough to make that
proposition when they had had some experience of
thatthe
working of the Poor Law Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) To
proposition he, for one would never give his consent.
Then, with regard to the first species of qualification,
omitting the questions of occupancy and the payment of
taxes, es sebondary considerations, the real question be-
tween the Government and his side of the House was,
whether it should be an eight or a ten pound qualification ?
Last year the Government consented to a 101. franchise
in the eleven boroughs contained in Schedule A. On the
other hand, those upon his side of the House consented to
the proposition although they were in favour of a 201. fran-
chise; but they not only conceded the principle of new
corporations, but they adopted the proposition of the Go-
vernment upon the single condition that the franchise
should be a bona fide one of 101. There were many who
thought the Corporate Franchise should be higher than
the Parliamentary one—but he had given his adhesion
to the to/. qualification upon condition of its bona
tides. lie wanted the same now, and therefore he pro-
posed to substitute a 10/. franchise composed of the
annual value to which the premises in question shall be
rated under the Poor-law and the amount of the landlord's
repairs and insurance, in place of the S/. franchise pro-
posed by the clause.
Lord MORPETH said the question of the franchise
had been so often discussed that he would not think it
necessary to detain the House upon it again at any length.
The Government adhered to the 8/. franchise for the
three years which must elapse before they could assimilate
the franchise to that of England, and upon this ground,
that as the nett value of the premises was taken in rating
under the Poor-law, so that it was in fact much more
simple and actually higher than the one proposed by the
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Under the 9th
Geo. IV., for Watching and Cleansing Towns, the fran-
chise was fixed at 5/. and there was not in any one town
an inconvenient number of electors. In 1833, in Clom
mail, with a population of 15,000, with 1,867 houses, there
were only 683 registered at 10/., being not a third of the
whole. If they were to restrict it more it would be against
the spirit of the whole Bill and the intention of the Go-
vernment, who were most anxious to assimilate the fran-
chise in both countries (Cheers)—which would save
much heart-burning on the part of the poorer country.
He therefore hoped the House would not consent to
adopt the restricted franchise proposed by the Right Hon.
Gentlemen, but would adopt that franchise which had been
found to work so beneficially in England.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. FE RGUSSON observed that as the Bill then
stood it would give a right to persons who did not contri-
bute to the Borough fund to vote for Corporate officers,
which he did not think was fair. He should therefore vote
for the amendment of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and if
that amendment were carried, he would then propose an
amendment for the purpose of returning to the 81. fran-
chise. The franchise proposed was not the English fran-
chise; but in England the poor-rate and the borough rate
were levied on the same persons—in Ireland they were
not, and many did not pay the borough rate at all.
Lord MORPETH agreed that as the Bill stood per-
sons would have the right of voting who were not contri-
butors to the borough fund, which would not be just, and
in that particular point he would adopt the amendment of
the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Mr. WYSE opposed the amendment.
Lord E LIOT could not give a silent vote on the pre-
sent occasion, because on this subject he differed with gen-
tlemen with whom he generally acted. A volume had
been sent to him of speeches made by Members of the
Protestant Association at a meeting held in Dublin, in the
spring of the present year, and he certainly lamented the
language that had been used on that occasion. He did not
wish to dwell upon that subject, but there certainly ap-
peared to have been such a spirit manifested in the speeches
of those gentlemen that was very likely to produce a
corresponding feeling of hatred in the minds of the un-
educated peasantry of Ireland.---( Hear, hear.) He be-
Hayed some of the speakers were Protestant clergymen,
and they told the people that they had gained an ascend-
ancy, and were determined to keep it.—( Hear, bear.)
They said that Roman Catholics were idolaters, worship-
pers of Belief, and followers of Antichrist, and they asked
what right the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
(Mr. O'Connell), being an idolater, had to demand an
equality with them, being Christians.—(Loud cheers, and
laughter from the Ministerial benches.) Such language
could not be too much deprecated ; and he confessed it
appeared to him the keeping alive these subjects was
detrimental to the interests of the country._( Hear,
hear, and loud cheers.) Some of the speakers had said
the time had come when they must sell their coats
and buy a sword, go to the field with the Bible in their
bands, and having Hallelujahs on their lips, like the Cove-
nanters, sally forth in defence of their religion.—( Laugh-
ter.) There gentlemen also cautioned the Conservatives
in both Houses of Parliament as to the course they should
pursue; and the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
had introduced this amendment came in for his full share
of blame. They menaced him with ejection from his
seat, but he (Lord Eliot) hoped and trusted that those
menaces would not be realised.—( Hear, and laughter. )
The deliberations of those individuals were not marked
with that moderation and good sense which would
become men in their station of life. They objected
even to the principle of the Bill, and said that even if the
franchise were restricted to 161. or 201. they considered it
equally inadmissible.—( A laugh.) His opinion was, that
nothing would be gained by the amendment of his Right
Hon. Friend, and he believed he bad the authority of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Somcrsetshire for saying that
the usual deductions made by valuers in England, in the
rating of houses, would bring it to the occupant of a 9/.
house, so that the difference between the Noble Lord and
the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman was only
1/, The difference was so trifling that it was really (
hardly worth squabbling about.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He knew that bad men would pervert institutions to
bad purposes ; but the possible abuse of their use was
no argument against them.—(Hear, hear.) Another
objection he bad to the amendment was its uncertainty—
( Hear, hear)—and after the best consideration be had
given this subject, he could not come to the conclusion
that it was his duty to support the amendment.—(Cheers.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had heard with considerable
regret the speech just delivered by the Noble Lord.—
( Cheers from the Conservatives and laughter from the
Reformers.) He had hoped the debate would have been
conducted without any allusion to party matters, and it
would have been better if the subject referred to by the
Noble Lord had not been mentioned. The Noble Lord
had said they were disputing about a mere trifle. If that
was the case, her Majesty's Government could not do
better than give it up at once.—( Laughter.) It was well
known that a large number of gentlemen on his side of
the House, were of opinion it would be far better for the
future tranquillity of Ireland, that there should be no
Corporations, for they felt the members of these Corpora-
tions would have no occupation but agitation.—(Hear,
hear.) However, they had yielded that point; but the
Right Hon. Baronet, the Me:nber for Tamwortin had
distinctly stated that he would require a 10/. qualifica-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) He also understood that her Ma-
jesty's Government had expressed their willingness to
accede to that.---( Hear, hear.) A great number on his
side of the House, who had voted for the second reading
of the Bill, had given offence to their constituencies,
and had certainly risked their popularity.—(Laughter.)
But they had been anxious to discharge their duty. He
wished the Solicitor-General for Ireland, to explain what
was the meaning of the 193 d section, the object of which
he could not discover.

Lord E L lOT explained that he considered the amount
a mere trifle, but he did not consider it a trifle to give
satisfaction to the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. PIG OT said the object of the clause was to make
residence co-extensive with rates.

Sir R. PE E L said if he were to protract the debate,
the result •f the division might probably be different.
This was certainly an unfavourable period for the divi-
sion, but he would not protract the debate needlessly, as
it might be the means of introducing topics of irritation
which he was anxious to avoid, and therefore he would
at once encounter the risk of a division which he foresaw
must be an unfavourable one.---( Hear, hear.) His im-
pression had been that the Government did not intend to
proceed with this Bill. At the commencement of the
Session three subjects were announced in the Queen's
speech as of immense importance—first, improvements in
the Civil and Criminal Law ; secondly, Canada ; and
thirdly, the Municipal Corporations of Ireland. The
improvements in the law they had not heard of,
and the Canada Bill had been abandoned ; and he
had entertained the confident expectation that the
Irish Municipal Corporation Bill would follow the
fate of its brethren, and that Government did
not intend to press the matter for consideration, until the
other night, when it was announced that they intended to
proceed with the Bill. The Noble Lord (Eliot) said the
matter in dispute was a mere trifle. If he ( Sir R. Peel)
believed that he was wrong, he would concede that trifle,
but he was convinced that he was in the right.—( Hear,
hear.) He had done everything to induce his friends to
lend themselves to a settlement of the question, on the
assurance that the franchise should be a bona fide one of
10/.—( Hear, hear.) He objected also to the House de-
termining what should be the franchise in 1842 on the
same principle that he had objected to the resolution,
pledging the House to certain proceedings with respect to
Canada, in 1342.—( Hear,l hear.) He regretted that
some of his friends were not now present who would have
been in attendance at a later part of the night ; but feeling
it his duty to adhere to the 10/. franchise, he could not
consent to forego a division, whatever the result might
be.—( Hear, hear.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when tho
numbers were _ _

Ayes lO4
54

Noes
Majority for
that
Mr. PIGOT suggested might
be inserted in the clauses,
tallstl Ministers...
the soi
conferring
fee wordrrs
rin.
Office"sO a
qualification,
in addition to the words " Counting-house, shop," &c.
Sir R. PEEL said if the word " Office" were proper
for Ireland it was equally so in England, where, however,
it did not now exist.—( Hear.)
Lord MORPETH
said a doubt had arisen whether,
under the word " Counting-houses,"_attorneys ' offices
would be included.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON thought the introduction of
the word would encourage fictitioui qualifications.
Mr. O'CONNELL observed the
office must be rated
to the poor—( Hear, hear)—and the word had been intro-
duced into other Acts.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—But I objected to it
always.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Yes, and every thing else.--
( Laughter.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—The Learned Gentleman
should confine himself to the truth.—( Order, order.)
The amendment was understood to be agreed to, and
the clause was pa3qed.
Clauses 21 and 22 were also agreed to.
On clause 23,