The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-21 00:00:00

REMISSION OF SENTENCES.

The Duke of MARLBOROUGH moved that an humble
address be presented to her Majesty for a list of persons
who have received a reroiss'on of sentence, under the terms
of the Home-office circular, dated 12th January, 1857. stat-
ing in each case the term of sentence passed, the portion of
the sentence undergone by the convict previous to his
being discharged, either in this country or the colonies,
and in what penal establishment, and also a list of per•
eons discharged since the time above-mentioned who
have been reconvicted, and the sentence passed.
The noble lord said his desire was to obtain the papers he
requited to ascertain whether the circular had been a suc-
cess or not. He then referred again to the case of Red-
path, to show the inequality of punishment administered to
some convicts, and said a great deal of useful information
would be obtained by the documents he required.
Earl GRANVILLE asked the noble duke not to press
his motion, as it would be attended with very great ex-
pense and trouble to large numbers of persons.
The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said he would post-
pone his motion until after the report of the Royal Com-
mission appointed to inquire into transportation was made.
Poland.
•

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—My lords, I rise to
ask whether the Government will lay upon the table any
despatch from the Consul-General at Warsaw in as tar as it
relates to the immediate origin of the present insurrection
in Poland ; also to Itsk whether any communication has
been made by the Russian Government with respect to the
origin of the insurrection, or by the Prussian Government
with respect to any engagement it may have entered into
with a view to aiding the Russian Government in its sup-
pression. Your lordships will observe that I only ask for
information as to communications which may have been re-
ceived from other Governments. I ask no question as to any
communication which may have proceeded from her Ma-
jesty's Government. If, however, they should wish to make
any statement on the latter point, I have no doubt it will
be received with satisfaction by your lordships ; but I am
not asking for information with respect to their own pro-
ceedings, because there might be some inconvenience in
affording it on this occasion. But, my lords, I am sure of
this, that whatever her Majesty's Ministers may have said or
done, the feelings excited in their breasts by the recent conduct
of the Russians in Poland must be similar to those which
have been excited in the breast of every English gentleman. I
feel that I should be guilty of an offence against the members
of the Cabinet if I expressed the slightest doubt of that.
(Hear, hear.) My lords, the news of this insurrection in
Poland was to all of us a subject of the most painful sur-
prise. No doubt, nothing had occurred to lead us to expect
such an ebullition of public feeling on the part of the Poles.
On the contrary, the course of events during the last 18
months had been such as rather to lead us to hope that, on
the whole, things were in a somewhat better state. Towards
the end of 1861 communications of a most conciliatory
character were made by the Russian Government to the
Polish nation. At a somewhat later period the Emperor '
sent the Grand Duke Constantine to Poland,and his Lupe-
rial Highness, accompanied by his family, went there in all
probability with instructions in the same spirit. From these
occurrences it was hoped that some arrangement would be I
come to whereby something like constitutional government
would be established in Poland: I believe the advice given
by the friends of Poland was that the Poles should take the
right hand of friendship held out to them, show their wil-
lingness to co-operate with the Government, and accept all
they could get. But it seems that while all this was going
on the police, under the Russian Government, were collect-
ing information,or what they term information, of the poli-
tical opinions of every one in Poland capable of having an
opinion ; and in the middle of the night of the 21st of
January,svithout waming,by virtue of an order signed only
at 10 o'clock that night, Russian soldiers surrounded the
domiciles and families of persons residing in Warsaw and
forcibly took them from the midst of their families, without
affording them any time to make preparations for a separa-
tion, perhaps for life,from all that belonged to them. (Hear,
hear.) It is to be observed,my lords,that the men seized under
that conscription were not those who were fittest for military
service, but those who from their political opinions seemed
to the Russian police fittest to be consigned to the Russian
army for life. The feeling of the people of Warsaw and of
the people of Poland yeas one of utter despair. Those who
could escape betook themselves- to the woods, and a feeling
of despair led them. at once to resist the armed force of
Russia. My lords, they had not time for reflection ; but,
had that been afforded to them, they could have come to no
other resolution than that which uncalculating despair sug-
gested. (Hear.) There was no longer security for any man in
the midst of his family. In many cases men were selected as
soldiers for the purpose of gratifying private animosity, as
might have been done in former times in the State of Venice.
That was a blow at the nation, and the nation has risen to
avenge it. I recollect that when the revolution broke out
in France, a Minister of great candour and straightforward-
ness, and who knew the circumstances which had led to it,
expressed his opinion in this house that the revolution was
provoked. I trust there is a similar spirit and candour in
her Majesty's present Government. If they really believe
the circumstances occurred in Warsaw which we are told led
to the insurrection, I do hope they will come forward and
declare the Government think the insurrection was pro-
voked, and thus place themselves where the government of
a country ought to be—at the head of public opinion.
(Cheers.) My lords, let us observe what has occurred in
consequence of the insurrection provoked by the conduct of
the Russians. At the present moment Russia cannot be
considered in Europe. A few years ago England, France,
and Piedmont combined together to bar the passage of
Russia out, of the Bosphorus. They succeeded in that ob-
ject, and Russia has now been barred on the north-east. It
would be impossible for her to lead her troops through Po-
land ; and, owing to the condition of that country, it is al-
most certain that such a state of things must continue for a
considerable time. She has not only to reconcile to herself
tho Poles, but she must also reconcile to herself the public
opinion of all Europe. Depend upon it, my lolls, that the
ullen murmurs or the public reprobation of all the nations
of Europe must have made themselves heard. (Heat.,
hear.) Look around and see in what quarter we have ne-
on to apprehend the consequences. We can look back and
recollect during how many years the Poles fought gallantly
in the ranks of the French army. As long as there exists
in France a sense of military honour—as long as there re-
mains the memory of the brilliant deeds of the Poles,of the
courage and daring of that noble brotherhood in arms
which led them to the last, under the most untoward and
eibestrous circumstances, to advance in unbroken ranks—
as long as this remains, France must be in heart with Po-
land. And the Emperor of the French, who is most sensi-
tive to observe every change in public opinion, it is impos-
sible for him not to observe what are the sentiments of
the French people and the French army ; and these must
soon become the sentiments of the Emperor. Austria
as throughout acted loyally, according to the principles of
lane tfearr, i
international law, and neither Russia nor any other Power,
am:aware, can by possibility attach blame to her
for her conduct. But what are we to say of Prussia ? It is
hut a few
weeks age that the King of Prussia summoned
his army
and hiereopletoeelebrate the 50th anniversary of
King to t
the call of theirhe field, when in 1813, the whole
nation sprang to arms,
sod prarurtia marched by the side of
the fillies to Paris. my
:as not the summons of
the King alone which led thaa'eu
had already been adopted by a Portion of take
the
course, for it
army.
movement arose from a feeling of resentmentwhih c it was
impossible to control when they looked back at the indig-
nity and suffering to which the Frenehhad subjected them.
They rose then to redeem the honour of their country: they
rose to demand for themselves the position and rights of an
independent people. And can it be expected by any sove-
reign, however medieval his notions of government may
be,, that those who now represent the Prussian army will
allow themselves to be moved to the Polish frontier for the
purpose of repressing every principle and every feeling
which they had at heart in 1813, and the assertion of which
has cbtained for them the higher rank which they have
since maintained in Europe? (Hear, bear.) Prussia owes
that she is I:Illation, that her army is respected among those
Europe—sho owes everything she has of honour and in-
dependence to her having acted upon the very principles
and Leen incited by the very feelings which she is now, 1
ever, called upon io attack on the Polish frontier. (Hear.)
eh lords, that cannot be. It is contrary to nature, it is cone
t t ery to the feelings of nations and of armies; and if the
it jug of Prussia should add to all the various acts which
have so incensed his people and his arms an attempt to
trample through the army upon the very principles to which
be owes the independence and the honour of his country,
there will arise a crisis in that kingdom which may extend
yet further, and may again disorganise all the States of

Europe. Ido not pretend to entertain any peculiar views re-
specting the causes which may have given rise to the great
events now transpiring in Poland. But I have an enduring
reliance upon the general beneficence of that Providence
from whom all these great events must spring, and looking
at the inscrutable manner in which Providence effects its
purposes, bringing good out of evil—dreadful as the view is
which we now have of the state of things in Poland, and of
this horrible war in which both parties destroy, and both
are believed to massacre—whatever may be the miseries now
inflicted upon Poland—l will endeavour to hope that this is ,
the commencement of a brighter era, and that even we may
live to see that which has been the object of all statesmen
for the last 80 years—the re-establishment, if not in its in-
tegrity, at least in strength, under a constitutional Govern-
ment, of the noble nation of the Poles. (Loud cheers.)
Earl RUSSELL—In answer to the noble earl I shall con-
fine myself as far as possible to the facts of the case as far
as they are known to me, and shall abstain as much as pos-
sible, with the exception of one part of the observations
which he has made from the expression of opinions respect-
ing what is now going on in Poland. In the first place I will
say that I cannot consistently with my duty give the report
from our Consul at Warsaw, because I consider that while
these events are transpiring the production of these reports
would make the position of the Consul one of extreme diffi-
culty, and would render it almost impossible for him to give
information and t • describe the course of things in Poland
without encountering violent opposition from one or other
of the parties. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the present
outbreak I must say I do not think it was so sudden and so
unexpected an event as the noble earl seems to suppose—at
least to those who were in the habit of receiving accounts of
what was going on in Poland. Your lordships will recollect
that last year there were in Warsaw great demonstrations,
the churches being filled at times with men and women sing-
ing patriotic hymns, these demonstrations, however, being
unaccompanied by any breach of the peace. But it was im-
possible that they could have continued for a long time.
They must either have produced, on the part of the Govern-
ment and the Emperor of Russia, an inclination to accede
to the wishes of the Poles at Warsaw, or they must have
led to violent measures from those who took part in these
demonstrations. Now, in considering the affairs of Poland,
we may divide the population of the country into three
different classes. One portion, consisting of the landed
aristocracy, the great owners of the soil, many of them en-
lightened men, engaged in the cultivation and improvement
of their estates and in improving the condition of the people
living on those estates, were but little disposed to favour
any act of revolution. Another portion of the people of
Poland consists of the middle classes in the towns, both
those belonging to the apper part of the middle classes and
the shopkeepers and others who belong to the lower part of
the middle classes. The other portion of the population of
Poland consists of the peasantry. When the demonstrations
to which I have alluded ceased these was a great difference
in the course taken by these different classes of the popu-
lation. The great landowners were determined, if possible,
to bring their grievances to the foot of the throne, but they
were determined at the same time not to break out into any
act of violence, and not to use force for the accomplishment
of their objects. Those objects were, according to my in-
formation, the right of constitutional Government, the right
to have representatives, and to have a Polish Administra-
tion, or an enlightened Administration, consisting chiefly
of Poles, favourable to the religion of their country and to
the study of the language of their country. With regard
to the last of these objects they were in agreement with the
intentions of the Emperor. Heretofore in the history of
Poland it has been the object of the Russian Government
to root out the language of the country and to deter the
Poles from the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion.
The present Emperor, on the contrary, was understood to
favour the national development of Poland, and his
wishes and views with regard to the Government of
Poland were described as to a great extent most en-
lightened. These persons, then, belonging to the landed
aristocracy of Poland, met together, and in con-
formity, as they believed, with the wishes of the Emperor
and the Grand Duke Constantine, they prepared an address
in which they, in the first place, stated their wish that Po-
land should be enlarged by the addition of certain provinces
now under the Russian rule, which, since the first partition
in 1772, had been separated altogether from Poland ; and
in the second place they asked for constitutional Govern-
ment. Their wishes in these respects were not different
from those entertained by Alexander I. of Russia, and were
not inconsistent with the general provisions of the treaty of
Vienna, in framing which the Emperor took so large a part,
and over which he exercised so considerable an influence.
When, however, this address, signed by more than 200 of
the chief landed proprietors in Poland, was presented, the
persons who so presented it were told they had committed a
grave offence against the State, and Count Zamoyski, who
had been the medium of its presentation, was told that he
had taken a step which was inconsistent with the law end
with the policy of the Emperor, and that it was requisite
for the internal peace of Poland that he should quit the
country. Accordingly he quitted Russia and came to Eng-
land. While here he was informed that his wife, whom he
had left behind hint, was at the point of death. Upon this
he applied for permission to visit his dying *wife, but owing,
I am bound to say, to some mistake, the telegraphic des-
patch never reached him, and he received no answer to his
application. It bad always been attempted on the part of
the aristocracy of Poland to obtain a representative Consti-
tution and to establish a liberal Government which would
be entirely consistent with loyalty towards the Emperor of
Russia; but in this instance the attempt came to an end in
the manner I have described. I now come to the second
portion of the Polish population, consisting of the middle
classes. They were in despair at finding no improvement
in the administration of the country resulted from the
efforts of those who were sent to improve it ; and they
therefore formed themselves, in Warsaw especially, into
secret societies, among whose numbers were persons enter-
taining the most extreme views on social and political ques-
tions, partaking to some extent, I believe, of the opinions
held by M. Mazzini. My lords, it was open to the Russian
Government, of course, to have used their utmost vigilance in
repressing those secret societies, giving to the members of
them a fair trial, and if necessary severe punishment; but at
the same time the Emperor might have continued and en-
larged his plans for the improvement of his administration
in Poland, and might thus have showed that under the
Russian government happiness was still within the reach
of the Polish people. Unfortunately this was not the course
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under the Grand Duke at Warsaw, came to a different con-
clusion, I will not attempt to repeat the account of that
which the noble earl described in his own graphic and
impressive manner as the effect of the conscription. Certain
it is that the measure of conscription which was carried
through by the Government of Poland was of the most
severe character, and such as to excite the unhappy popula-
tion to despair. A conscription is of itself a measure of
great severity upon the population. It condemns a man
who has no wish to embark in a military profession to
banishment from home, and to all the privations of a
military life, if the lot should fall upon him. Seeing that
the measure itself is one of such severity, the Sovereigns of
those countries where it is in force have introduced such
modifications of the law as make it tolerable to the pspula-
tion and modify its severity beyond what the 'necessity of
the case might require. And the Russian Government
itself, by the laws of 1859, had introduced a system by which
it was provided that so many should be chosen out of every
100, or out of every 1,000, such choice being made justly
and fairly, and substitutes allowed for those who had fair
ground for exemption. Instead of taking the legal
course, the Government of Poland ordered in
the first instance that the whole conscriptions
should be levied upon the towns, in which they
considered the spirit of insurrection chiefly to prevail, and
that it should not be levied in the country parts, where the
peasantry were supposed to be less disaffected. That of it-
self was a great injustice. But they went beyond this, and
not only ordered that the whole number of conscripts should
be taken from the towns, but also that from certain lists of
names which, as the noble earl has stated, were supplied by
the police, those persons contained in those lists, without
trial or examination, were to be presumed to be guilty of
y
disloyalty, and were to be seized and carried away to serve
as soldiers, although they were tot fairly liable to
be placed
upon the lists of conscripts. The feeling produced by such
a measure may be imagined. The persons who were en-
gaged in secret societies, who meant to rise in insurrection
at some time, although probably they would never have
carried out that intention, were driven to despair, and they I
thought that if they must serve as soldiers they would rather
shed the last drop of their blood upon their native land of
Poland than waste their lives in distant lands in the service
of Russia. Those who were not engaged in conspiracies
were struck with alarm lest they might be suspected, and
thus they at once fled froni the towns and determined to
risk their lives in insurrection. Well, my lords, this mea-
sure, although it was not a measure taken with a po-
pulation that was perfectly tranquil and well affected,
yet it was a measure which I think no British Minister
would venture to justify. (Hear.) In conversation with the
Russian Minister, and in writing to her Majesty's Ambas-
sador, I could not forbear to express my opinion that it was
the most imprudent and uejust step the Russian Govern-
ment could take. (Cheers.) With regard to the second part
of the noble earl's question, which relates to the communi-
cations with respect to the engagements by which the Prus-
sian Government has bound itself to lend its assistance in
certain events to the Russian Government to repress the
and insurrection,the 1p
rhaveßsia had
Ambassadors
d mbaa conversationsgado rsupon bot ht withhe
bt
jhe the
t,
butßus-
sian
copythe
they have not furnished me with a of subject,
—indeed, they informed me they had no such
they have informed me generally of the nature of
that.
con-
vention. The Russian Ambassador told me to. day that it
was not a convention, on• the part of Prussia, for the
pur-
pose of suppressing the insurrection in Poland; but I un-
derstood from him and from the Prussian Ambassador that
the purport of the convention was, that instead of Prussia
remaining perfectly neutral—in which case Russian sol-
diers either taking refuge from insurgents or being in pur-
suit of insurgents, if they should touch upon Prussian ter-
ritory, would be disarmed and kept disarmed as long as
they remained upon Prussian territory—they have agreed
that Russian soldiers, when taking refuge upon Prussian
soil, should retain their arms, and if pursuing -Polish insur-
gents they should be permitted to pursue them, and take