The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-22 00:00:00

TI-1E S€? N, LONDON, FRIDAY, MARC El 22, 1839

been taken of them for several months. He would oh.
serve to their Lordships that Mr. Nangle rctoivecl no
tithes—the colony was established on the voluntary prin-
ciples—( Hear, hear.) Those, principles had been misre-
presented, the characters of the clergymen calumniated,
their safety threatened, and their persons assaulted. At
the present moment they were err!uring the rigours of a
seige, their neighbours were forbidden to buy or sell with
them, one of the congregation had providentially escaped
the murderous blow aimed at him, and another was still
suffering from the effects of a serious assault. The colo-
nists had petitioned the Lord Lieutenant to establish petty
sessions in the island of Achill in consequence of
the persecutions theyovere undergoing, and the difficulty
of obtaining justice in other districts. That memorial had
been forwarded on the 30th of November, and no answer
had been re'urned till the 21st of February following. In
the meantime Mr. Reynolds, one of the witnesses examined
before their Lordships.' Committee, was murdered.—
( Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that the laws of Eng-
land were paralyzed in that district, end that the laws and
canons of Rome had superseded the efficacy of the British
Constitution. Tlial by jury in some parts of the country,
which was considered the glory and the greatest boast
of the British Constitution, was a curse. Oaths were
reckoned binding or not binding according to circumstances,
or the parties to which they referred ; and murder itself was,
as he should be able to prove, palliated and encouraged
and even called praiseworthy. The great end and aim of
all that was the annihilation of the Protestant faith in ire-

land. He entreated them not to consider the subject as a
mere Irish one—it was closely connected with the interests
of the empire at large. It was impossible to separate
the interests of the two countries—they were so closely
united, that what was ruinous to the one must be fatal to

the other. While he addressed their Lordships, Ireland
was the battle-field of Protestantism ; and the saying
that was prevalent in the time of Queen Elizabeth was
realised, that
" He who would in England win,
Must first in Ireland light."
( Hear, Hear.) He trusted that he had laid before their
Lordships sufficiently strong grounds to induce them to
consent to the Committee He had merely done his duty
in bringing the subject, under their consideration. He had
said nothing to hurt the feelings of anybody, nor had he any
wish to do so. He implored them for the sake
of humanity and justice, and for the protection of her Ma-
jesty's loyal subjects in Ireland, to accede to his motion,
which was, " That a Select Committee be appointed to
inquire into the state of Ireland since 1835 with respect to
crime and outrage, which had rendered life and property
insecure."—( Hear, and cheers. )
The Marquis of NO RM ANB Y was perfectly ready to
meet the responsibility of every thing which the Noble
Earl had laid to his charge. And he owned that if the
evidence was equal to the language in which he had
clothed it, that responsibility would be heavy indeed. But
he was ready to prove now to their Lordships that he had
grappled with crime wherever he had met with it,
throughout the whole course of his government, continu-
ously and successfully ; and so far from having made any
invidious distinction, be could, if necessary, prove to their
Lordships that his ambition had been to exhibit equal energy
and vigour with his Noble and Gallant Friend (the Marquis of
Anglesea) who had preceded him in the government of that
country. He hoped he should be able to prove, even to the
Noble Earl's (Roden) satisfaction, that the state of Ireland
was not unparalleled in his recollection.—( Cheers from both
sides of the House.) And he would state that, not from
a few vague letters from Magistrates, though Magistrates
they be (and he did not take the Noble Earl to say that
there had been information on oath), but he would prove
it to their Lordships (although the extent to which the
Noble Earl had gone would compel him perhaps to
weary their Lordships)—he would prove it by reading
despatches from former Lords Lieutenant with respect to
the State of Ireland in those times, and by comparing
the charges of Judges in that time with the charges
of Judges during his Vice-royalty. —( Hear, hear, hear.)
The Noble Earl said that he had gone through twelve
counties, each of which he had proved to be worse than it
was before. Now he (Lord Normanby) would prove the
reverse; but, he would ask, what ground was there for this
extraordinary motion, or from whom did it come. With
the greatest possible respect for the Noble Earl, he ( Lord
Normanby) would beg leave to say that the Noble Earl
gas not here, as he might think he was, speaking in the
name of the Protestants of Ireland. (He ( Lord Nor-
manby) could confidently say, that there was a vast number
of the most respectable, most intelligent, and most wealthy
Protestants in Ireland, who differed from the Noble Earl
as much in politics as the Noble Earl differed himself from
the Pope in religion. If the Noble Earl should succeed in
his motion, it would be said that it was the success of the
late Grand Master of an Orange Institution and those he
represented, and not the success of the Protest-
ants of Ireland in general, and it would appear that
the Noble Earl had through that influence swayed the
majority of their Lordships' House, to adopt the most in-
judicious and inconvenient step of taking into their own
hands the Executive Government of Ireland.—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Earl was quite wrong in his allusion
to many cases which were still under trial, and which he
would seem to represent as not having been at all prose-
cuted by the Government. The cases of Newry and
Cathcart were instances of the Noble Lord's error in that
respect—indeed, there had been no cases of murder com-
mitted in the county of Longford within the last two years,
for which there were not persons now in gaol awaiting their
trial. In alluding to the county of Roscommon he spoke
of certain crimes that had occurred during the contest in
the time of the general election ; now he k Lord N.) be-
lieved that there was no contest in the county of Roscom-
mon at that time. He (the Marquis of Normanby) could
not as yet with propriety allude to cases under judicial
discussion, but in respect to the murder of Lord Norbury
he could now inform him that there were two persons
in custody for that murder. Three weeks ago the ;Coble
Earl asked him whether it was likely that those
who were then committed for that murder would be can-
vieted—he could not then arswer the question; tiow'fie
could inform him that one of those persons, Doha lifts' k 6 e
approver, had been found guilty' of perjuring,hirAsielfz-La
(Laughter.) He (the Marquis of Normanby) must now
beg leave to refer to the comparative state of crime in Ire-
land, and here he would remark that the Comparative state
of crime could not be ascertained from individual cases,
however atrocious in their character or heart-breaking in
their results, but from the general aspect of the country—
(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Normanby was now prepared
to prove what he had asserted upon a former occa-
sion, viz., that in extent and atrocity crime had
considerably lessened, and that the proportion of commit-
tals for crime had very much increased, as had also the
proportion of convictions to committals; if he could esta-
blish those propositions he trusted that their Lordships
would be convinced that his (the Marquis of Norbanby's)
Government could not be blamed for not having " grap-
gled with crime," as the Noble Earl had stated.—( Hear,
hear.) Now here he would beg leave once more that
their Lordships should distinctly understand that he ( Lord
Normanby) had never stated that the condition of Ireland
was entirely satisfactory—all he had ever taken credit for
was, that in reference to tranquillity and the diminution of
crime, the state of that country was generally progressive.
Now, he would read from a return, which would show their
Lordships the committals and convictions within two con-
trasted periods, for offences of an aggravated character,
namely, homicides, violence offered to the person,
cutting and maiming, aggravated assaults, abduc-
tions, incendiary fires, burglarious attacks upon
houses, administration of unlawful oaths, serving of illegal
notices, riots and factious fightings, and resistance to il-
legal processes. The Noble Marquis then read from the
constabulary returns a series of local criminal statistics,
Contrasting the last three months of 1837 with the last
three months of 1838, it appeared that the number of all
those offences, excepting homicides, had diminished in 1837
from 1,234 to 760 in 1838. Within the last five years the
number of homicides had not been reduced, although
it had fluctuated considerably. The smallest number,
which was 228, occurred in 1837 ; and the largest num-
ber, which was 278, occurred in 1834. The attacks
upon houses had been as follows :—in 1834, 923 ;
. _

iu 1835, 818 ; in 1836, 518 ; in 1837, 637 ;
and in 1838, 353. The deductions from a series of compa-
rative committals and convictions which he held in his
hands was, that the proportion of committals to convictions
in Ireland was about 71 per cent., nearly the same that it
was in England—this improvement was in a great degree
owing to the vigorous manner in which the constabulary dis-
charged their duties. Now be would contrast the state of
things under his government with the state of things under
the government of two preceding Lords Lieutenant. Lord
Whitworth, a former Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, stated in
a despatch which he sent over to this country in 1811, that
convictions produced no good effect, and indeed could not
always be procured on account ut the intimidation
which was practised upon witnesses and juries. The
Insurrection Act was applied for by fifteen Magistrates in
the county of Westmeath—the county of Tipperary was in
a very disturbed state. In 1814 applications were made
for additional force on account of the disturbed state of the
country, and it was refused by Lord Whitworth. This
certainly was a precedent for his refusal to the late appli-
cations from the magistrates of the county of Tipperary.
In 1615 Mr. W. Baker, a most respectable person, who
had prosecuted to conviction several persons for attacking
a house, was waylaid as he was returning from the Tippe-
rary sessions and shot dead. In Louth 10 houses were

• the use of stones was as criminal as weapons. The Judges
hosrever, recommended a commutation of the sentence, and
the sentence was commuted on their authority.--( Hear,
, hear. ) Another portion of the attack, referred to his sup-
! posed abuse of the prerogative of mercy.— ( Hear, hear.)
• Much had been said by the Noble Lord as
r to occurrences which happened hi 1836, and he
thought, after the many opportunities which the
• Noble Lord had had of bringing forward this subject,
it was rather unfair that three years should elapse before
1 making his accusations, more especially as he had brought
forward a motion somewhat similar to this eighteen months
ago,—( Hear, hear) In 1836, in consequence of the im-
provement which had taken place in the conducting of pro-
secutions many persons had been convicted of such offences
' as faction fights and riots at fairs, offences which had not
previously been prosecuted. The Chairman of the Quarter
Sessions of the county of Tipperary had informed him that
the sentences in these cases were more severe than he had
intended to carry into effect if the state improved. On this
he ( Lord N.) had enlarged a number of persons who had
not committed aggravated offences. If any of the latter
class had had their sentences commuted that commutation
had been decided on previously, on the recommendation of
the Judges, and on every occasion he had made inquiries
as to the previous character and good conduct of the par-
ties in the gaol. He had considered that this was
an experiment worth trying, and he had always
stated he had considered it as an experiment.
The number of commutations of capital punishment were
not half the number that had taken place in the year
1823, although he did not attach much importance to
that, as the alteration in the law might have created the
difference. They all knew the tendency of criminals
to return, but of all those he had discharged in fifteen
months, only twenty-one had been re-committed, and those
principally for petty offences. The Noble Lld had
referred to the Ribbon conspiracy; he believed that
traces of them might exist, but he did not believe there was
any general conspiracy. The members of the Ribbon
lodges he believed were persons of the lowest
class. The Government had used every endeavour
to discover these Ribbonmen, and he was convinced a
Committee of their Lordships' House would do no good in
the way of discovery, as the Government had never been
able to get sufficient evidence to prosecute. The Noble Earl
had alluded to the appointments which he had made—he
would submit a list of them, in order to show
no unfair distribution of them had taken place. Of
Judges appointed since the year 1825, S had been Protes-
tants and 6 Catholics ; of the high offices in the consta-
bulary force, 69 had been Protestants and 37 Catholics ;
of Provincial Inspectors, Sub-Inspectors, &c., 27 Protes-
tants and 8 Catholics; of Attorneysaud Solicitors- General,
and Magistrates of Dublin, 40 had been Protestants and
27 Catholics. The Noble Earl had alluded to the Pre-
cursor Society; he did not see how he could make hint
(Lord Normanby) answerable for the existence of that
Society, as he had always stated his objections to it, al-
though he did not consider it expedient to take steps to
put it down. But he had also objected to the Orange
Lodge, of which the Noble Earl was a member, and yet
that Society still existed. The Noble Earl alluded to
the phraseology of Mr. O'Connell. Now the Noble
Earl had not been always very cautious of the
language he had used or tolerated in his pre-
sence. In 1834, in the county of Down, at a meeting
at which the Noble Earl was present, a Mr. Conolly
had said that the time was come to drive the Papists out
of the land, and the Noble Earl had said, " Protestants
of Ulster, I know your strength, your love to your coun-
try, and your numbsrs." Now this, if it did not mean
fighting, certainly indicated an intention to do so under
circumstances. It was irksome to their Lordships to hear
him speak at that length, and the confused mass of papers
prevented his doing that justice to the subject which he
otherwise should have done. There were one or two points
to which he would refer, one was the establishment of pro-
secuting solicitors in Ireland, which occasioned many
offences being brought to trial which had heretofore
been compounded. The next was the arrangement
of the constabulary force, which worked admirably, and
instead of a system of constabulary force, ill-disciplined
and under four distinct independent authorities, they had
now a system under the sole command, first of Col. Shaw
Kennedy and after Col. ITGregor, the efficiency of which
was increased infinitely beyond the number of men added
to it, Which was only 500. He took a pride in the con-
stabulary force. No one could regret more than he did
the loss of Col. Shaw Kennedy or more sensibly feel the
difficulty of supplying his place. He had known Col.
111• Gregor previously, and had selected him for that
appointment, and nothing could exceed the satisfaction Col.
1111 Gregor had given since he had been at the head of the
force. With regard to his distribution of Church patronage,
he was happy that all parties agreed in doing him justice. He
had seen in a Conservative paper, that he had appointed 36
curates to livings, who had no other claim. This was the
principle on which he had acted, and he was happy that
nore of his political opponents had found fault with his
Church patronage. He would not trouble them further,
but he would beseech their Lordships not to consent to the
motion of the Noble Earl, as it would be taking an unpre-
dented step, and it would appear not only to the people of
Ireland, but to the people of England, that their Lordships
were taking on themselves the Executive Government. On
such questions, there was usually a sympathy between the
two Houses, but on the debate on this subject the other
night, not 40 Members of the great party to which the
Noble Earl belonged, could be found to sit to listen to the
statements. Notwithstanding his (Lord Normanby's) de-
sire to earn their Lordships' approbation, even to obtain
that, he could not bring to his mind any one act of his
Irish Government, which he would have changed.
My Lords (concluded the Noble Marquis) I cannot—what-
ever he your decision—l cannot be deprived of the grati-
tude of a warm-hearted and long-oppressed people ; I can-
not be deprived of that which I value above all earthly
considerations—the ,approval .of own conscience,—
,(Letzd cheers, from the Alioisteriat ben,chcq):'
,Tite Duke' 'of 'WELLINCTON. said, he did not think
,his Noble Friend (Earl Roden) could justly be charged
with party motives in bringing forward this question. On
the contrary, he thought that there never was a speech dis-
playing more moderation and calmness than the speech of
his Noble Friend. No doubt the Noble Marquis was per-
fectly satisfied with his own Government in Ireland. But
the Noble Earl (Roden) had thrown no imputation on the
Noble Marquis. All that the Noble Earl had complained
of was that there prevailed a great degree of crime and
intimidation in Ireland. The fact, that for the last few
years murders and homicides were from 700 to 1,000 a
a year, two or three a day, that fact was quite sufficient
ground for instituting an inquiry as to whether there was
not something very peculiar in the administration of justice
in that country which imperatively required some remedial
measure.--( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis had la-
boured a vast deal to show that Ireland had always been in
such an unhappy state, that it had never been peaceable
and tranquil. But there had never before been found Go-
vernments to come down to Parliament, and affirm, by
speeches from the Throne, that the country was in a state
of tranquillity.—( Opposition cheers.) Nor had, till the pre-
sent time, Lords Lieutenants of Ireland been found to make
long speeches with the view of showing Irelandito be,forsooth,
" tranquil and peaceable."—( Cheers from the same quar-
ter.) The Noble Marquis had endeavoured to show that
the blame, if any, was to be attributed to others. It did
not matter one pin which party in Ireland was right and
which was wrong; it was in his (the Duke of Welling-
ton's) judgment, sufficient ground for inquiry that the
threats of murder had become so frequent in Ireland.
( Hear, hear.) But there were other grounds for the pro-
posed inquiry. He had, on a former occasion, pointed out
the discrepancy between the returns of crime in Ireland
made to their Lordships and to the other House of Par-
liament, He now held in his hand returns of the Inspec-
tors of Prisons, and the Clerks of the Peace ; and there
was in 1837 a difference between 14,804 and 72,241.
Lord PLUNKET—The Petty Session returns were
included in one and not in the other.

The Marquis of NORMANBY—I can't believe that.
—(Laughter. He thought the Noble Lord, since he now
spoke with so much pain—(Great laughter)—might have
given the information he now gave with much more benefit
to the public service on a previous occasion.—( Hear.)
Lord L ISMO RE did not approve of all the appoint-
ments made by the Noble Marquis; but he thought the
selection of the present Assistant Barrister of the county of
Tipperary would cover a multitude of faults. With regard
to the appointment of Mr. Brereton, the reason stated for
his appointment was the the true one, and Mr. Breretoa
would not accept of the situation in another county. He
opposed the appointment of the Committee.
The Marquis of NORM ANDY said that the reason
of the non• appointment of Mr. Brereton was as bad been
stated, and that Le had never varied from the rule he had
laid down.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH supported the ap-
pointment of the Committee, and grounded his support
on the fact of twenty-six outrages having occured in
the county of Westmeath since the month of February.
The Noble Marquis then quoted a letter from a priest to
an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, recommending a repeal
of the Union, as proof of the existence of the Ribbon conspi-
racy, and complained of the manner in which the remon-
strances of the Magistrates of Westmeath had been treated,
and stated that in many instances the penalties inflicted
by them bad been remittaiby the Lord Lieutenant, in con-
sequence of which crime and outrage had increased. Not-
withstanding what had been stated, he was convinced
there were Ribbonmen in the police, as he
held in his hand a notice which had been stuck on
a police station in his neighbourhood, recommending
" the bloody d—d Peelers" to provide themselves with
coffins, for having turned a Roman Catholic out of their
body. Ile would relate another instance of outrage in
which a person had sent a man to fetch some ale, who had
been attacked by a party of ruffians who broke all the
ale to pieces and ill-treated the mare—(Great laughter. )
It was not always safe to give names. So now he would
give their Lordships the affidavit of blank, in the parish of,
blank, in the county of Westmeath—(great laughter)
who when at the chapel of so-and-so heard the Rev. Mr.
Fuller say that so-and-so—( Great laughter)—had a gun.
This information was particular enough, although some of
their Lordsbies might not understand it.—( e.aughter.)
However it would be all proved hereafter. The
next case was that of a policeman in the county
of Roscommon releasing a man from prison who
had been committed by Lord Crofton. The man
was interceded for by a Catholic priest. The misconduct
was not punished. He ( Lord %V.) mentioned these as a
few out of a multitude of facts, to show that the Govern-
ment of the Noble Marquis was not thought the same of
at that side of the House as the other.—( :scat
laughter.) He concluded by giving his hearty concur-
rence to the motion.
The Earl of FINGAL believed in his conscience that
the state of Ireland was progressive, that property had ad-
vanced in value, and that industry had increased.—( Hear,
hear.) True, great crime still existed there. Even in
Tipperary land had recently been sold at a very high price.
Even the Noble Marquis of Westmeath had recantly pur-
chased an estate in that desperate county.—( Laughter. )
The Marquis of WE STME ATH--I sold half of that
to Mr. Slignes, who was bullied out of it.—(Laughter.)
The Earl of FINGAL—No doubt the Noble Mar-
qu!s sold it at an increased value.—( Laughter.) He did
not think that the Catholic Bishop of Meath made the speech
alluded to in the canal boat. He was too prudent and too
civil a man to do such a thing.--( Laughter, and hear.)
Lord MELBOURNE said that the debate had cer-
tainly been of a most comprehensive character ex-
tending to every thing from the highest affairs
in the state to the aointment of a policeman.
' Still the main questionpp before their Lordships
was plain and short. The Noble Lord bad clearly