The Sun.
London, England, 1830-05-05 00:00:00

CHURCH OF IRELAND.

The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL rose to present a peti-
tion from the Protestant inhabitants of Wexford, complain-
ing of abuses in the Protestant Church of _lreland, and
praying their Lordships to take them into consideration,
with a view to reform them. The petitioners further
complained of the state of the Ecclesiastical Law, and
prayed for a more equal distribution of Church property.
The petition was read and laid on the table.
His Loensiirr next presented a similar petition from
the Protestant inhabitants of the City and County of Cork.
It was signed, he said, by upwards of three thousand, and
among them we.-e sixty Magistrates and several gentlemen
of landed property. He begged leave particularly to call
their Lordships' attention to this petition, which, perhaps,
related to as important a subject as ever came under their
Lordships' notice. As the petition had already been made
public, he would not trouble their Lordships by having it
read at length.
The Order of the Day was then read, that their Lord-
ships be summoned to take into consideration a Motion re-
lative to the Church of Ireland.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL then continued. In
pursuance (he said) of the wish of the petitioners he then
rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given
notice. He acknowledged that he never in his life felt
more embarrassment than in bringing forward that motion.
He was embarrassed by recollecting his own want of abili-
ties, by the magnitude of the subject, and by reflecting on
his own inability to du it justice. He could have wished
that some Peer more experienced than himself, and pos-
sessing more ability, had undertaken the teak ; but seeing
no Noble Peer willing to undertake it, he had felt it to he
his duty to call their Lordships' attention to it. In
stating the facts that he should bring forward, he trusted
he should be able to make their Lordships aware that they
ought to take the subject into their consideration, but in
seeking to do that he should not rely so much on his own
words as their recollections, which would make the case
appear stronger than any thing he could say. He was
most embarrassed, however, by the idea that it might be
alleged that he was an enemy to the established church, or
an enemy to religion, or that he had some hostility to the
Rev. Prelates of that church. No man was more firmly
attached to his religion and to our episcopal form of church
government, but he was anxious ta make that church
snore worthy of her own attachment, and more suitable to
the wants of the people. It was on that account that he
' brought the motion forward. In the observations he
should make, he begged to be understood as making no
reflections on individuals, and as not wishing to bring the
church into disrepute ; and be hoped that nothing which
might fall from his lips would be interpreted to mean dis-
respect either to the church or to any of its members. He
bad been accustomed to reflect on religious subjects, and
was not a Protestant because he was born one—he was a
Protestant by conviction. He had inquired into different
creeds, and had only become more and more attached to
his own. It was from having paid some attention to the
subject that he was emboldened to bring it under their
Lordships' notice. He laolied at religion not only as useful
to the state, but as improving the mind of man. It en-
lightened the heart, and taught man to act right. If it did
not effect this, those who bore the name of Christians were
no better than Pagans. He was afraid that in this country
there were many Pagans, and he was afraid that our
Legislature looked at religion more in its conviction with
the state, than as influencing the hearts of individuals.
He meant, in the first place, to advert to the state of our
Ecclesiastical
.Laws, though perhaps some of their Lord-
ships might think he ought not to mention that subject,
as a Commission far inquiring into them had already been
issued. But that Commission, he understood, extended
only to England and Wales, and it was to the Eccle-
siastical Courts of Ireland that he wished to draw their
Lordships' attention. He had lately examined a book in
their Lordships' library, called " Gibson's Codex," which
was acknowledged to be the best Manual of Ecclesiastical
Law. Ile wished to make a few remarks on those laws,
some of which were not absurd, others were ridiculous
and absurd, hut neglected ; and the third class bad no-
thing me them that was opposed to the Protestant church.
Ile would read a short notice of some of these Ecclesias-
tical Laws. At page 157 of Gibson's Codex, it was
said, " that the clergy shall sot exercise any secular juris-
diction." This was one of the Ecclesiastical Laws which
appeared rational, and which he was sorry to say was not
obeyed. Again it was said, " that the clergy shall not

exercise any base and servile labour." This was accord-
ing to the canon. He believed that the words base and
servile meant secular employment; and sorry lie was to
say that the clergy did exercise such employments. He
knew some of them were agents; and though an Act had
been passed to prevent this abuse, many of them conti-
nued to exercise these secular employments in spite of the
law. At page 162 it was stated, " that the clergy skal
not play at cards or dice, or any unlawful games."—(A
laugh.)—At page 168 it stated, that according to the
74th canon, no ecclesiastic shrill wear a point or a wrought
night-cap, or shall wear a cap of blue or black silk or
velvet.—(A laugh.)—lt was ridiculous, he knew ; but he
mentioned these absurdities, because he wished to see the
Ecclesiastical Law made respectable. At pace 170, by the
Constitution .f Olko—for the Ecclesiastical Law of the
English Protestant church contained decrees of Popes
and of Legates—it was declared that the Bishops shall
reside in their sees, and shall say high mass on holi-
days ; and this was a part of the Ecclesiastical Law of
the Protestant church of England. He conceived that
all such laws as that ought to be expunged. At page
191, by the 88th Canon, made in 1603, it was ordered
that there should be no profane usages or games suffered in
any churches or chapels, or in any churchyards. But
money was employed in decorating churches, and making
exhibitions of them. They were more like opera houses
than places of worship. This was, he thought, opposed
to the canon. On the whole, the Ecclesiastical Law ought
to be made so as it could be obeyed, or it ought to be
swept away. If it could not be obeyed, it ought not to be
suffered to remain as law. Laws which could not be
obeyed ought to be expunged. He would not trouble
their Lordships with any further remarks on that part of
the au bject, but would proceed to call their Lordships' at-
tention to the state of parishes in Ireland. If religion
were worthy of attention in the aggregate, it was also
worthy of attention in detail. In the first place, he
would observe that many parishes wanted pastors, and he
would hive each parish placed under the care of a spiritual
guide, who had proved himself by his life and doctrines a
good Christian. He was afraid that, by a change in times
and circumstances, the church was no longer so well able
as formerly to provide for the spiritual welfare of the
people. He did not blame any man ; he was only anxious
to improve the church. He again deprecated any man ap-
plying what he said to any individual clergyman. He knew
that many of them had endeavoured to reform abuses,
but had not been able. He hoped, therefore, that
no person would suppose that he was making any attack
on any individual. When he and their Lordships should
have passed away—when they should be rotting in their
graves—when he should he called before the judgment
seat to give an account of his actions to his Creator—he
was sure that lie would look with a clean conscience on
his motives and proceedings of that day. He was re-
solved fearlessly to do his duty, and he wished their Lord-
ships to believe that be had no other motives than a desire
to improve the church, provide for the spiritual welfare
of the people, and promote the honour of God. He would
state, that he believed that there was a deficiency of
churches. It was true that sums of money had been from
time to time granted to build churches, but there were
not vet enough, and places ought to be provided for the
people to pray in, if their Lordships wished them to be
religious: According to the Report made to the ether
House of Parliament, in 1820, there were 1155 parish
churches in Ireland, and, according to the calculation he
had made, he believed that, en an average, each of these
churches would not contain more than 150 persons. The
money which had been destined to build churches had been
lavished on cut-stone and pretty architecture. The spiritual
welfare of the people had been lost sight of, and the money
lavished on ornaments which ought to have provided accom-
modation for the people. Thus it was that the average of the
1155 churches he had mentioned contained only 150 persons.
The consequence of that must necessarily be, that there
was no room for the poorer orders. If the number of
churches-1155, were multiplied by the number of
people they would contain, 150, that would give 173,250.
From a statement of Mr. Leslie Foster, it appeared that
there were 1,270,000 persons belonging to the church of
Ireland; if of these it was allowed that 90,000 were too
young to attend divine worship, it would appear that
there were upwards of a million for which there was no
accommodation provided. He would admit that there
had been improvements in the church of Ireland, but the
fault that he found was, that they had not been suffi-
ciently rapid. From the statement that he had made, it
would appear that five out of every six were made to at-
tend worship. This was the case ; and he thought it a
very important one. In England also, there was a great
want of churches. The population of London was
1,400,000, of which it was calculated a million were in
the habit of neglecting the worship of God. In some of
the provinces it was notorious that there were more dis-
senting houses than there were churches or chapels of the
church of England. By returns, it appeared that there
were 2,533 ,churches or chapels, while within the same
district the number of dissenting houses amounted to
3,413. In the province of York there were 300 more
dissenting houses than there were churches and chapels ;
in Devonport, where the number of inhabitants was forty
thousand, there were but one church and three chapels,
while there were no less than twenty-three dissenting
houses; but this was not all—there was likewise a great
want of clergy. In Irelan I, it appeared by a return
made in 1820, that there were 1263 benefices, of the in-
cumbents of which only 880 are resident, while theme
were 390 non-residents. Such a system as this ought to
be found fault with, and the clergy ought to be bound to
reside on their benefices. No doubt there were certain
cases in which an excuse might be allowed, but as a gene-
ral principle the thing ought to be inadmissible. The
appointment of clergy to those benefices would be in vain,
if such a rule were not enforced ; an I yet lie believed
there were some instances in which they were non-resi-
dent, even without the leave of the Bishop. The fault
Was not one of the present day, it had long existed, and
much of the fault was owing to the 57th Geo. 111. That
Act made exceptions of all sorts; a clergyman might be
permitted to live at college till he was thirty—he was not
requite d to he resident in the event of holding a living
elsewhere—with a variety of other exceptions, most of
which appeared to him to be improper. As long as such
exceptions as these were allowed, the spiritual welfare of
the people could not be taken care of. By the returns made
of England in 1812, it appeared that out of about 10,000
benefices, there were about 4,000 non-residents, of which
1846 were non-residents from the circumstance of their
having livings elsewhere. Since the year 1814, there had
been a decrease in incumbents to the amount of 2,500;
consequently there must have been a proportionate in-
crease of pluralities. The state of the parish schools also
required investigation, but however he would not detain
their Lordships to go into that topic on the present occa-
sion. Another subject which called for their Lordships'
attention was the church property—ard in mentioning
this, it 'night perhaps be supposed that he was about to
join those who were for pulling the church property to
pieces. Such, however, was not the case. The great
complaint appeared to him to be, that the church property
had got into too few hands. The smaller benefices in
Ireland hail disappeared, as the smaller farms in England
had disappeared, and made way for overgrown estates and
property. In Ireland a comparatively smell number of
persons enjoyed nearly the whole of the valuable church
property. He thought that there could be no doubt that
Paz liament had a right to inquire int.) these circum-
stances; the right was established by preci dent, and it was
a step that they had never scrupled t take with respect
to individuel cases. The parish of Marylelsone had been
divided by Parlianient—and, indeed, if he did not feel
confident of the right, he shied i be the last person in
the world to argue in favour of such a step. The
reason why such a step was more proper now than it
had been at any former period, was because the church
was not now in ro prosperous a condition as it had
been, and therefore they were bound to be more cir-
cumspect in their management. With respect to the
returns that had been made concerning the chute 11 of Ire-
land, he had to complain of their inaccuracy. He was
afraid that the Bishops had left them to be neele
up by persons under them, and that they had gone through
them in a slovenly manner. The returns, with respect to
the tithe composition, were incorrect. He believed that
the real amount was five or six times what had been put
down in the returns. A return as to the church property
had been made in 1807 ; but by the return that had been
last made, it would appear that the church possessed
nearly 13,000 acres less than in 1807. It was certainly
much to be wished that accuracy in the returns made to
Parliamentn ot
led
astiayshould.. be
Another observed,
grefaotr
omissiont h bje cwt inas callingth a tso
nfol re
them was, that the House might be informed of the truth,
and

parishes were absolutely left main the returns : there were
no less than nine parishes omitted in one diocese. He
should now make a few remarks with respec4to the system
. of tithes. In the first place it appeared to him to be ex-
tremely desirable that the same tithe composition should
exist in England that existed in Ireland, for he believed
that that composition had done more to make peace be-
tween the laity and clergy in that country than any other
arrangement that had ever taken place ; and when he
saw the injury and dissatisfaction that this subject pro-
duced in England, he could not help thinking that it was
desirable, for the welfare of the church, that every
thing of the sort should be got rid of as soon as
possible in England. How could it be expected when a
whole parish was divided against its clergyman on the
subject of tithes, that the parishioners could go in a proper
spirit to church, to listen to even the most splendid elo-
quence, or the most brilliant attainments? He had been
told by a Naval Officer, that he was in company recently
with a clergyman who was going to look after his tithes;
and when he met a goose with its goslings he stopped to
count the progeny, and would cry, " Ah! there's one for
use!"—(A laugh.)-or, if he overtook a sow with her
litter, he summed them up with the observation, " Alt!
there are two for me !".--(A laugh.)—He did not state
these things to being the clergy into disrepute, but to
show the spirit by which some of them were actuated. In
the murder of Mr. Parker, the trial for which made so
much noise a short time ago, the only provocation that led
to that crime was the bickering that existed between hint
and his parishioners on the subject of tithes. With regal d
to the appointment of Deacons, he thought there Iv- s
something objectionable in the system—he thought that
more care ought to be taken in the examination of candi-
dates for ordination. At present more attention was paid
to their acquiremeats in the classics, or, as he should call
it, in heathen knowledge, which referred rather to
their secular duties than their ntinistetial ones. Of all the
points upon which he had addressed their Lordships, there
was one on which be. desired particularly to insist—that
was, the practice of selling the next presentation to
livings. It was a most unseemly practice, inemnsistent
with the respectability and purity of the church, and open-
ing a door to the admission of persons the most unfit to
be admitted to the sacred ministry of any Christian
church. 'How could they expect to have good clergymen,
when Men received the preferments who had the most
money in their pockets, to the exclusion of the more wor-
thy who might happen to be less wealthy. It was not
difficult for a young man to obtain ordination, and, having
obtained it, if his father had money in his pocket, he
might easily command a living. Amongst laymen that
practice was tolerated, bet if a Bishop were guilty of that
practice, it would be called simony. This selling of pre-
sentations was the greatest abuse its the church, and it was
one which unhappily prevailed equally both in England
and Ireland. No man more earnestly desired than lie did
to see the united church of England and Ireland in flou-
rishing condition, but he feared that they never would be
found in that state so long as present practices prevailed.
When speaking of the clergy, he was the Nielson in the
world from placing all of them in the same class ; some
amongst them were the most pious, the most single- hearted,
the most devoted to the duties of the ministry of any men
:iving ; others amongst them were c re!etts and indifferent
—not doing much good, and perhaps doing little harm.
But there were sonic infinitely worse than even the 1 ttter,
who not only neglected that to which they ought to devout
their entire time, but were guilty of every offence against
religion and morals. That there were many exceptions to
that description he was perfectly willing to admit ; but he
came there not to praise the church, but to point out what
was defective in it. The state of the curates was a subject
of much importance, but at that time he did sot think it
expedient to occupy their Lordships' time byenteriae upon
it further than to relate that, is England, there were 3691
curates, only 455 of whom, in the year 1810, received
salaries above 501. At that period the great number if
3239 received theism salary of 501. annually. No doubt
since then an improvement had been effected, by whit h
the lowest salary could not be lower than 751. ; that,
however, was only 4s. Id. a (ley. It had become a mat-
ter of notoriety that a great portion of the situations in
the church were sinesures. Now an obvious inapt-oven-tent
would be to confer some of those sinecures upon the poor
working curates ; for it should never he forgotten, that
the labourer was worthy of his hire. Such was the state
of distress to which many curates were reduced by their
narrow salaries, and the unavoidable expenses which a
gentleman had to incur, that he understood they bad been
compelled to establish a house of call; and such were
their circumstances, that they got the name of journey-
men parsons. It frequently happened, too, that the
clergymen were compelled to insert begging advertise,
ments. Some of those were, so doubt, eases of ex-
treme distress. But it was not alone that such cases
cane before the public—there were many never made
knows beyond the immediate acquaintance of the
suffering party. The Noble Lord then proceeded to
censure the non-resident clergy—[Bat as he generally
turned away front the bar, and steed very remote
from it, it was only occasionally that even a fragment of a
sentence could be caught]. He was understood to ob-
serve, that there was a marked difference between resident
clergy and clergy who performed the duties of their
parishes. Some resided and performed no duties, others
resided and did worse than perform no duties; most of
them were too much occupied with secular employments,
instead of attending to the spiritual interests of their pa-
rishioners—instead of performing their duties, they engaged
in agricultural speculations. By the old law they were not
allowed to engage in speculations of that nature, but by the
57th George 111. they were permitted to hold as much as
eighty acres of land, provided their income did not exceed
a certain amount. In evidence of the degree in which
clergymen gave themselves up to secular employments, he
read an advertisement from the Belfast Chronicle, dated
in February last, in which a bankrupt's sale was announced,
a Rev. Mr. Gregg being the bankrupt, and bring described
in the advertisement as a dealer and chapman. His goods
were announced to be sold by auction at his glebe house ;
they consisted of household furniture, agricultural stock
and utensils, wines, whiskey ; it also announced a meeting
of his creditors. Such was the extent to which secular em-
ployments and amusements were carried by the Irish
clergy, that he had heard an instance of an Archdeacon
who kept one of the best packs of fox hounds in all Ireland
and twenty hunters. After Divine Service the Archdeacon
would co lect around him at the Communion Table from
the surrounding pews, on a Sunday, his fellow fox-hunters,
for the purpose of discussing where they should assemble
far the sport of the following clay. On the whole, he did
not see how their Lordships oeuld refuse a comtnisaion ;
he did hope and trust the evil would be remedied. He
flattered himself that the House would do him the justice
to believe that he was actuated by good motives—that he
earnestly desired not to injure, but to improve the church.
If their Lordships knew the facts which had come to his
knowledge within the last six months, they would feel
that something ought to be done, and that quickly, It
was a disagreeable and painful subject upon which to en-
large; he did it with reluctance, for he knew it must lhe
unpleasant to the House; hut he begged oi them to con-
sider well before they negatived his motion. Let them
not be averse from any change—it was a law of nature
that all things should change—there was nothing remained
stationary ; all things became in time either worse or bete
ter. He felt that in bringing for ward the present intakes
he ran some risk, but he had made up his mind to incur
that risk. Some might think there would be danger in
what he intended to conclude by proposing, but he begged
to remind them that they had only to do what was right
—to obey the dictates of their consciences, and leave coo.
sequences in the hands of Almighty God. If they acted
conscientiously, they might depend upon receiving toe
direction and guidance of the Hely Spirit ; they had
the warrant of God's word for that, and a surety
that they would be safely carried through every diffi-
culty into which they might be lei from acting in ac-
cordance with a sense of duty. Many might be found to
say it would be better to do it another time—at some
future period like the debtor who desired his creditor to
call to-morrow, they might, by postpunemeet, evade the
evil; perhaps if they waited longer, a worse time might
arrive. Perhaps, bad as the present time was, yet a better
might never come. Every day the enemies of the church
were becoming more and more powerful. He wished that
this subject had been brought under consideration many
years ago. It had been stated in the other House by a
flight Hon. Gentleman, the Secrettry for the Home De-
partment, that the church would find in her own purity
her best protection ; the same had been repeated in that
House by a Noble Duke, whom he then saw in his place ;
but let them not be led astray by an ignus fatuus, There
was no purity that he could see; where Will the purity?
He next proceeded to the progress of Popery in England,
referring to a Roman Catholic publication, from which it
appeared that in England and Wales the number of Chapels
and Citholic Priests had increased to the extent of fify-
three congregations, during a particular period mentioned,
which yielded an average of nearly five congregations an-
nually. He had letters in his possession, stating that 100
members of the Established Church, at Leicester, had since
tee passing of the Catholic Relief Bill, been added to the
Romish communion ; could there be a more striking fact ?
In 1823, the number of persons committed in Eeela e as
12,163 ; and in 1829, the cumber had increased to 18,675.
In 1823, the conviction; in England were 8 20V ; and in
1829, 13,261. Crime was therefore alarmingly on the in-
crease : the people weft/ Mere dentorelized and depraved than

ever, notwithstanding that the laws were greatly improved ;
and yet they were told that•religion was to be known by
good works. There were but two ways of preventing
crime, that he was aware of—the fear of man and the
fear of God—and he was sorry to say that there was no
instance in this country of this latter species of fear being
very prevalent or influential. Look at London on a Sun-
day, and behold the state of the poor : did they go to
church ? The shops were open, and the butchers' stalls
were busy, exactly the same as upon a week-day. Sun-
day in England was notoriously a day of dissipation ; and
tradesmen would acknowledge that on Monday morning
it was impossible to get their men to work, from their ex-
cesses of the preceding day. Such was the state of the
population, and it was evident that the church was ineffi-
cient in correcting the lives of the people, notwithstand-
ing its professions and pretensions were so great, and its
revenues and privileges so immense. His Lordship con-
cluded by moving as follows .—" That a humble Address
be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be
graciously pleased to appoint a Commission to inquire
into and state if any and what abuses exist in the church
establishments of England and Ireland ; and if any, to report
the measures most expedient to the removal thereof."
The LORD CHANCELLOR put the motion from the
Woolsack, when it appeared that the majority was of the
Non-contents ; and at Twenty-five Minutes past Eight
the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS--(LAST NIGHT).
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Bristol against
the truck system.
The Deputy Clerk of the Crown attended to amend the
return for Limerick, by substituting the name of J.
Massey Dawson, Esq., for that of Colonel O'Grady.
Petitions against the Beer Bill were presented from
Nottingham, Del by, and other places.
Sir J. NEWPORT presented a petition from the sur-
geons f Waterford against the monopoly of the Dublin
Col! eg,e.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from Liverpool
in favour of the Bill for the Emancipation of the Jews.
The -lon. Member said the petition was signed by nearly
two thousand of the most respectable inhabitants, ineltul-

ing the Mayor and every Banker in the place, and they
prayed that the House would pass the Bill.
General GASCOIGNE said he should feel bound to
oppose the Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the Gallant General would
only show his consistency by so doing, for he had opposed
the Catholic Bill on religious grounds. But in his (Mr.
O'Connell's) opinion the only recompence he could make
for his opposition to the Catholics would be by voting for
the Jews' Bill.—(A laugh.)
Mr. LEG If KECK presented a petition from owners
and occupiers of public houses in Le'cestershire, against
the Beer Bill. The lion. Member said he should give his
decided opposition to the Bill, as it was calculated to ruin
a great number of individuals who bad embarked their
whole property on the faith that the laws would not be
changed.
Sir CHARLES HASTINGS said he should not op-
pose the Bill in iota, but he should feel called upon to pp-
pose that cl iuse which allowed beer to be consumed on
the premises.
After a faw words from Sir JOHN NEWPORT. in sup-
port of the Bill, the petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. LECH KECK then presented several other simi-
lar petitions from places in the county of Leicester.
Lord F. OSBORNE presented several petitions com-
plaining. of general distress.
Lord UXBRIDGE presented a petition from the Magis-
trates of Anglesea against any alteration in the Welch
Judicature.
Mr. FLEMING presented a petition from the Clergy
and Gentry of the Isle of Wight against the Beer Bill.
The following petitions were presented against the
Beer Bill :—By Mr. Huskisson, from Liverpool; by Mr.
Marshall, from a parish in Yorkshire; by Mr. Bickford,
from Aylesbury ; by Sir Charles Hastings, from Ashby de
la Zouch ; by Lord Stanley, from the hundred of Brad-
ford; by Sir W. Heathcote, from Fareham, Flants; by
Lord C. Manners, from a person named Watts, and from
the licensed victuallers of Wisbeach ; by Mr. Ti. Calvert
three petitions from Hatfield, Bishop-Stortford, and a
parish in Hertfordshire; and by Sir J. Ashley two petitions
from Bradford and Trowbridge.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from Liverpool,
against the infliction of death for forgery.
Mr. WESTERN presented two similar petitions from
parishes in Essex.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from the West
India merchants, relative to slavery.
Mr. MARSHALL presented four petitions from the
West fl.iding of Yorkshire, praying that the assizes might
ha held in the town of Wakefield.
Mr. LECH KECK presented a petition from a town in
Leicestershire against the India Company's monopoly.
Lord F. OSBORNE presented four petitions from pa-
rishes in Kent, complaining of distress.

General PHIPPS presented a petition from the mer•
chant seamen of Scarborough against compulsory contri•
butions to Greenwich Hospital.

Mr. ROBINS presented a petition from Worcester, pray
ing for a reduction of taxes.
;Ur. C. W. WYNNE rose to pres nt a petition from
gmoo Hindoo-Britons, complaining of grievances, and pray-
ing for relief. The petitioners complained of being ex-
cluded from all offices under the East India Company—of
i,eing deprived of the benefit of trial by jury—and of be-
lug subjected to excessive degradation and to numerous
kljsethilities. There were those who talked of an inherent
inferiority in those persons. He would be ashamed to
argue with these gentlemen upon such a question—be
would he ashamed to cite the many cases of men of this
class who had, by the force of talent, made their way, in
spite of all obstacles, to honour and distinction. He would
however, allude to the case of Colonel Skinner, whose
mother being a native, he was prevented from holding
rank in our service ; but he nevertheless raised a body of
eight thousand men, and earned the highest distinction by
his conduct; so that at last lie was made a companion of
the Order of the Bath. It had been observed that those
persons were regarded in a degraded light by the native
n3ians,
hut nothing could be more unjust than this; they
first sweated a grievance, and then upbraided the sufferers
with tlfe consequences of the injury which had been in-
flicted upon them. And here he would beg to refer to
the opinions of Sir Thomas Moaro.—(Here the Right
Bon. Member read an extract, to the effet, that we could
not talk with any grace of our paternal Government,
when we excluded those persons from all offices of trust
and emolument; and that the offices to which we did ad-
mit them only served to show more clearly the degradation
of the country at large. As to the present degraded state
of the natives, it was true of all natives ; and if Great
Britain were subjected to a foreign power to-morrow, her
-rives would soon become unworthy of trust, and all her
and literature would not prevent her from utter con-
tinent
tempt, ),,,,e,,vhole statement was well worth the attention of
wuuld be soon laid before the House, and
Government•
he hoped every man would take the trouble of reading it,
• and he could as-Mre themhich i they t
would be wellHe remar rewardedked
by
the enlightened sios'i w expressed.
as a distressing thing, that according to the regubitions of
the society established in f,adras and Bombay, it was in-
dispensable that every widow pr child subscribing to it
should prove that both parents wee.e of unmixed European
blood, or were at least four degrees removed from African
or Asiatic blood. But he trusted that whatever might be
the issue of the inquiry now on foot—whatever might be
the system of Gm eminent finally determined on—the Mi-
nistry would take into consideration the situation of the
petitioners and the natives, and admit them to every office
to which their education and abilities would fairly entitle
them.
Mr. S. WORTLEY could assure the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the House mad the country, that there was by
no means that contemptuous feeling towards the petition-
ers, of which they complained. The Government was
not insensible to their grievances, of which there were
some relating to their marriages and successions, which
might he remedied, but there were others which the
Right lion. Gentleman had classed under the same head
which could not be lightly disposed of, because it involved
the most important principles of political Government.
He accordingly declined entering farther upon the subject
at a time so inconvenient; it was an extensive question,
and must come before a body delegated by that House.
Sir J. MACINTOSH had had the opportunity of ob-
serving the conduct and character of tlio•e persons, and
he had spared no inquiries respecting them. He had
heard much of the natural inferiority of particular races
—that there was one race born to command, and another
to obey; but this he regarded as the common place ex-
pression of a slavish faction; and he knew there was no
foundation for it in any part of India. This, lie de-
clared, he spoke upon due consideration, because he had
observed boys of all races in places of public education.
He hail observed the clerks in counting-houses, and even
in the Government offices, for some were admitted to the
subordinrte situations, and thus allowed to sit in contact
as it were with all the objects of their ambition, though
they were only tantalized by the vicinity of that which
they could never attain. He was convinced that there
was no race, which was not actually in a state of slavery,
that was used with more needless harshness than that to
which the petitioners belonged.
Mr. C. FERGUSON, shortly after he had obtained
$ he honour vl a seat in that lbw; had vaned their atten-

tion to the subject of the hardships suffered by the class of
half-castes in India. He was happy to be able to say that
a liberal system was gradually making its way to India,
and he was convinced that, in point of policy, the British
Government must draw more largely than they had done
on the intelligence of the native inhabitants of India.—
There were some statements in this petition that were
questionable ; but at the same time it was quite true that
those persons were in a painful situation, and he hoped
that some means would be taken to put an end to the dis-
abilities under which they now laboured. There was one
point which had not been noticed, but which was de-
serving of consideration—he meant the situation in which
those persons of half-caste, who were Christians, stood
with regard to the other inhabitants of India. He thought
that both in policy and justice these persons, being
Christians, ought not to be subject to the administration
of the laws by the Hindoos. He could bear testimony to
the honour and ability of the half-caste, whom in those
respects he considered equal to the Europeans of full blood.
Mr. WHITMORE supported the petition.
Sir C. FORBES concurred with all that had been said
as to the justice and propriety of removing the disabilities
of thehalf-caste of Hindoo Britons. He had been seventeen
years in this country, after having been twenty-two years
there, and the more he saw of the old country the better
he liked the Indians.—( Hear, and laughter. )
Mr. J. STEWART also bore testimony to the merits of
this class of native population in India.
The petition was laid on the table.
Mr. C. WYNNE moved for a copy of a minute of
the late Sir T. Munro relative to the state and condition
of the inhabitants of Fort St. George.—Ordered.
Mr. C. WYNNE presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Montgomeryshire assembled at Welshpool, in
favour of the proposed change in the system of Welsh
Judicature. He should always be happy to present the
petition of the inhabitants of the county, but he was more
than usually gratified in doing so when he could declare,
as in this instance, that he most heartily concurred with
the prayer of it.