The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-29 00:00:00

but it was of the utmost importance that Parliament
should know at the earliest period in what manner the
Government meant to proceed. Were they early in the
next Session to invite the Legislature of Upper Canada to
send over persons for examination at the bar of the House;
or in what way were they to proceed in order that the
difficulties which interposecrtheraselves:tnight be removed ?
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it better to answer the
Right Hon. Gentleman's question now. He proposed, in
the course of the present Session, as already stated, to move
the further stages of the Bill for removing the difficulties and
obstacles which stood in the way of the temporary Govern-
ment of Lower Canada. It was his intention to have pro-
pos a plan, of which he bad previously given the outlines
to the House, for effecting a union of the two provinces.
It appeared, however, from the accounts that had been re-
ceived, that not only in Lower Canada, but parties of great
weight and influence, and A-embers of the Howe of Assembly
of Upper Canada, by whom the question bad been a good
deal discussed, had expressed a general desire that the
House should not proceed to legislate on the subject without
hearing the whole of the case on behalf of Upper Canada.
He therefore did not think it necessary to carry further the
measure for the union of the two provinces, without giving
every lair and full consideration to what might be urged
as to the manner in which it should be carried into effect.
It was therefore the intention of the Government,
having prepared the Bill, to send it out to Canada, and
instructions at the same time, with a view to obtaining as
general a concurrence as possible to a plan which might
be fur the general benefit of both these provinces; and he
hoped that, at an early period of the ensuing Session of
Parliament, they would be prepared with .a plan which
was likely to tend to the permanent stability and tran-
quillity of these provinces. The Right Hon. Gentleman
said he object( d to the course it was intended to pursue.
He (Lord J. Russell) did not find fault with his making
these objections, but he would say that a great part of the
difficulties now existing in Canada--a great part of the
want of security that any plan that might be proposed
would not be made matter of discussion fur other purposes,
arose from the course which was taken at the end of the
last Session of Parliament.--( Hear, hear.) His cswn
impression and belief was, that if Lord Durham had been
allowed to continue in the government of Canada, the
difficulties that bad since presented themselves would have
been put an end to.
Lord STANLEY wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Noble Lord to send out to Canada for ge-
neral concurrence the Bill which had been printed and de-
livered to Members this morning, or shether it was his
intention to withdraw that Bill, and send out one founded
on different principles.
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that it was intended to
send out the Bill that had already been &livered to
Members.

FACTORIES.
Lord ASHLEY inquired at what time the Noble
Lord intended to lay on the table of the House the
last Report of the Factory Inspectors, which contained
very important ma!ter relating to the Bill that was to come
on on Monday.
14::rd JOHN RUSSELL was not certain that the Re-
port was itt the pri.per state to be laid on the table at
present, but as soon as it was ready it would be presented
to the House.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
Mr. CA LEY wished to ask the Hon. Gentle-
man, the President of the Board of Trade,
whether he was prepared to introduce any measure on the
subject of harbours of refuge on the north-cast coast. He
had understood, after the general expression of the House
the other day, the Govt rnment would take this natter in
hand.

Mr. P. THOMSON had never said this subject was to
be takes up by the Gayernment. What he had said was,
that there ought to be a public Bill, and that he objected
to passing tolls being introduced into a private Bill
( Hear.) As to the question put by the Hon. Member, he
could not answer it in the affirmative; and it would be seen
from what passed the other day that no sooner was any
harbour projected than up started seven or eight Hon.
Members, and insisted that a harbour ought to be formed
in his own part of the country. He could nct promise any
more than that the Admiralty would be willing to give
their assistance in any survey of that coast.
COMMUNICATION WITH INDIA.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS asked whether the President of
the Board of Trade would have any objection to lay
upon the table the paper moved for last Session as to
steam communication with India. Also whether any
communication had taken place with a public body, re-
specting overland communication with India. And whe-
ther the R'ght Hon. Gentleman would have any objection
to lay them before the House?
Sir J. C. HOBH OUSE said the first mentioned papers
should be produced. Certain communications had taken
place with Mr. Curtis, Governor of the Bank, regarding
overland communication with India, and Le (Sir J. Hob.
house) had no objection to Mr. Curtis's publishing them.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS ineiuired what had been done re-
specting communicatam by Madras, &c. ?
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said nothing had yet been done
further than respected Bombay, which it had been agreed
should first be tried; and the time which had elapsed had
not been sufficient to try the exprinueit.
ATHLONE BRIDGE.
Sir F. TRENCH asked what the Chancellor of the
Exchequer meant to do respecting the Bride of Athlone ?
The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER said
that he had postponed the Bill, but he understood that the
individual who had presented a petition asainst the mea-
sure had withdrawn all opposition to the Bill.
IRISH BANKS.
Mr. HUNS E
.wished to know ahether the Chancellor of
the Exchequer could appoint the day on which he proposed
to hying on ,he Isiah Bank Act.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
fix the earliest opportunity for making his statement on the
measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL doubted whether the R7ght Hon.
Gentleman would give satisfaction to the people of Ireland;
by bringing the 8111 in at that late period of the Session.
He might announce what his plan was-, and then let the
measure stand over till the next Session.
MEXICO.
Lord INGESTRE seeing the Gallaet oppo-
site in his place, wiseed to put a question to him relative
to a subject of some importance. He had seen in the
public prints that a fresh outrage had been committed on
the flag of this country in the Mexican seas, he wished to
know a hether he had received any official account of that
at the Admiralty.
Sir THOMAS TROUBRIDGE said, that no regular
notice having been given by the Noble Lord, of his inten-
tion to put the question, he thought he should be acting
improperly if he attempted, from his own memory, to give
an answer to the Noble Lord.
Lord INGESTRE then gave notice that be should
put the question again on Monday.
POOR RATES.
Mr. HAWES wished to know from the Noble Lord at
the head of the Home Department, when it was his inten-
tion to bring forward the Bill relating to the collection of
Poor-rates. It was a measure of great public interest,
and he hoped it would not be brought on at a late hour.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he would take care that
the Hon. Member should have full notice of the period at
which he would bring it on.
The Bankrupts' Estate (Scotland) Bill, was read a
third time and passed.
ELECTION PETITIONS TRIAL BILL.
The House, on the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, re-
solved itself into a Committee on the Election Petitions
Trial Bill, Mr. Freshfield in the Chair.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Committee had al-
ready gone through that Bill, and it was now his intention
to bring up the clauses of which he had given notice, pro-
posing that they should be read a first and second time,
and that then the Bill should be recommitted.
On the first clause being put, which gives power to the
General Committee to Select Members,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he did not object to this
clause, although perhaps it would have been better if it had
given a wider discretion.
Mr. ESTCOURT thought it would be better to insert
the clause which had been proposed afte the 41st, and not
the 421 clause.
Lord J. RUSSELL bad no objection to adopt the
suggestion.
The clause was then agreed to, as was also the clause
that gave power to the General Cotnmitteeto appoint other
Members in the place of those who had either ceased to
be Members of the House, or had obtained leave from the
House to absent themselves from the Committee.
Colonel DAVIES objected to the clause which gave
power to the six Members chosen to sit on a Committee to
choose their Chairman from the Chairman's ballot. He
thought the power of such a choice ought to be in the
General Committee.
Sir R. PEEL thought the selection ought to be more
general.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said confidence in
the Committee was the great point.—(Hear, bear.)
_ln
the Courts it bad been decided that arbitrators could not
select an umpire by lot, because their judgment should be
exercised

SHANNON NAVIGATION.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER moved
the second reading of the River Shannon Navigation Bill.
Much misinformation existed upon the Bill and he would
shortly endeavour to set himself right upon it. General
Burgoyne, who was at the head of the Board of Works, was
to serve as one of the Commissioners, without any addi-
tional salary ; so also was the other Commissioner ; but
they wished to have the assistance of a paid Commissioner,
and General Burgoyne recommended Captain Jones. of
the Royal Engineers, who was totally unknown to the Go-
vernment, except professionally, to be the paid Corn-
missioner. The claims for compensation amounted to
60,0001., but, from strict inquiry, they were now reduced
to 14,0001.—( Hear, hear)—a proof that there had been a
sufficient investigation That work was a great and very
urgent necessity for Ireland, and, he would add, also, for
England ; for the repayment of the money from Ireland
would be rendered a matter of certainty. But to do so, it
was absolutely necessary to give the Government every
power to enfo.ce it, and that was the object of the stringent
clauses in the Bill. If they did not mean to enforce the
re payment of the money, it would be the duty of the Go-
vernment to come down and ask for a grant at once.
It would be disreputable in the Goverment to deceive,
I and is would be equally so on the part of the
country receiving the benefit. The inquiry into the im-
provement of the Shannon had been commenced even
before the formation of Earl Grey's Government—it was
now completed. It was found it would prove a very
great ria.ienal benefit, and he asked them only to read the
Bill a second time, not pledging them to the details of the
Bill, which could be far better discussed in the Committee.
Mr. LUCAS would not object to the most stringent
clauses that could be framed, for it was necessary to make
the repayment of the money perfectly certain, in order to
assure the Members from England and Scotland who bad
an idea that no money advanced to Leland would ever be
repaid. He was glad therefore the Chancellor of the
Exchequer proposed to make the repayment of the money
ordersafe, in
liike to t
Ireland studodoawa E ,gland.wrththep prejudice which was
Mr. O'CONNELL did nut think it was proper to call
the Commissioners unpaid Commissioners—they were sel-
dom the best. He agreed that the two gentlemen
named were quite efficient for the purpose, and that better
could not be got ; but they both received large salaries,
md they would perform that duty as part of their other
duties. The Bill would be perfectly useless, if the awards
were not made find. He knew of one case where there
was a claim of 30.00 n/ , and W. was awarded ; but he re-
commended that there should be no appeal, as it was essen-
tially necessary thartire hill should he passed. The clauses
fur the repayment of the money could not be too stringent,
for if the money was repaid there was an end at once of all
their stringency ; but it W 43 a mistaken notion that was
abroad, that money advanced for public works in Ireland
was never repaid. He would unhesiiatingly say that not
one shilling had ever been advanced upon the faith of
the Irish counties, fairly, that had not been repaid ; and the
money so advanced was indeed no bounty, for Ireland paid
five per cent. interest for money borrowed at 31 per cent.,
so that there was no great generosity in such advances.
Mr. SHAW agreed that the proposed works were a
great national object fur both countries, and that there
ought to be the fullest assurance given for the repayment
of the money.
Mr. HUME thought himself bound to support the
Chancellor of the Exchequer upon Irish grounds. No
doubt the money would be repaid, and had it not been
for the mistaken notion which prevailed, the Government
would not have been obliged to give up thegreatest
tional work ever undertaken for Ireland—therailways.—
(Hear, hear.) It was for the benefit of both countries that
the credit of England should he lent to promote public
na.
i
works in Ireland, and he hoped the Government would
nut fail to hen-educe the railway scheme eat ly next Session.

Mr. AGLIONBY suggested the words " by lot, or
otherwise," to meet the doubts which might exist.
Sir T. FREMANTLE objected strongly to the in-
troduction of the words, for he thought the practice
would be by lot; and-this would be a most unwise and
unfair system; as, perhaps, a Member, after having served
some months upon the Carlow Committee, might be in-
stantly chosen nn another.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was not to be absolutely by
lot ; it was " by lot, or otherwise."
Sir JAMES GRAB AII was cohvinced that the suc-
cess of the measure entirely depended upon how far con-
fidence would supersede chance. The present was the
fi.st occasion in the Bill on which chance had been pro-
posed, and he saw no reason for now departing from the
principles of the Bill, and for inserting the words " by
lot or otherwise," which would naturally point to lot.—
( Hear, hear.)

Mr. C. BULLER strongly concurred with the Right
Hon. Baronet, who had just spoken, and expressed his
decided aversion to the principle of lot.—(Hear.) He
should recommend that the words " by lot" be omitted_
( Hear, hear)—and leave the matter to the discretion of tfie
Committee.
Mr. AGLIONBY :said that would exclude lot; and
lie wished it to be optional to have recourse, if neces-
sary, to lot.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think it desirable to ex-
elude it altogether.

The clause, as amended. was then agreed to, and or.
dered to stand part of the Bill.
Several other clauses were also agreci to.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN thought it desirable that there
should be the power of appointing Commissions to take
evidence in the country, and he would suggest that the
clauses which were in the Bill of the Hon. Member for
Liskeard be added to the present Bill.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL belkved it would be
found cheaper to take the evidence in London, than to
appoint a Commis:Ann for the purpose of taking evidence
in the country.

Mr. O'CosxELL and Mr. AGLIONDY were of the same
opinion.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said, as the opinion of the Committee

THE SUN, LONDON SATURDAY, JUNE 29, 1639

appeared to be against him, he would not press the propo-
sition.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the House re-
sumed, and the Chairman reported progress.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the Bill be re•
committed, for the purpose of making some verbal amend-
ments.

The House went into Committee on the Bill a second
time, and a few verbal amendments were made.
Mr. WARBURTON, before the Chairman reported pro-
gress, begged to ask the Hon. Member for Liskeard, whe-
ther it was his intention to proceed with his Bill—the Re-
gistration Courts of Appeal ?
Mr. C. BULLER was most anxious to do so, but
feared the Government was anxious to bring foreard some
other measure. He wished the Noble Lord to fix some
day when be could bring it forward.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not give the Hon. Member
any:answer.
Mr. C. BI7LLER. said, if that was so, he supposed he
must give up the Bill.
Lend J. RUSSELL thought it was rather unfair of the
Hon. Member to ask him to give way with the measures
the Government was anxious to bring forward, in order to
accommodate the Hon. Member.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro.
gross, and the Bill, as amended, was ordered to be printed,
and to he re. committed on Wednesday next.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for
the House going into Committee on the Municipal Corpo-
rations (Ireland). Bill.
Sir. te. S ties W hoped the Noble Lord did not mean to
proceed with the Bill that night. H in. Members on his
(Mr. Shaw's) side of the House had been asked not to
object to the second reading, it being usual to take the
discussion going into Committee. It was convenient,
however, for the Government to commit the Bill pro forma,
and having thus obtained the sanction of the House they
had introduced a very large Bill, .in which very
extensive changes were 'made, and thirty-four clauses
added. Then, as to franchise, a principle altogether new
had been introduced, namely, the principle of the English
franchise, which fur the first time it was proposed to
adopt. Not one word of explanation had been offeed by
the Noble Lord, and, in fact, the general impress:on was,
that the Bill would not be persevered with. He would,
under these circumstances, as there had not been sufficient
notice given to Hon. Members on his side of the House,
make a compromise with the Noble Lord. lie proposed
that the House should go into Committee on the Bill, and
take only three clauses on which there was no like-
lihood of any diffi renee of opinion. He th .ught
There was no objection on his side of the
House to the clauses up to six.—( A laugh.) H.
would suggest that the Bill be then reported, and the re-
commitment fixed for a future day.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not say that the Hon.
Member had proposed to make any very great concession
—( Hear, hear.) The House would recollect that last
)ear a different course from that usually adopted had been
pursued, and no discussion had taken place in going into
Committee. There was no opportunity of going back to
that question now, and it appeared to him that he had
certainly kept the Bill lone enough before the House.
( A laugh.) The Hight Hon. Gentleman now conceded
to them the first five clauses, reserving to himself the
right to object to every word and syllable of the remaining
245 clauses.— (Much laughter.) He proposed eitheethat
the Committee should go at once to the clause on which
it was likely there would be the greatest difference of
opinion, namely, the franchise clause, or to go regularly
through the Bill..—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON hoped the Noble Lord
would not press the Bill that night. All parties were led
to believe, from the long period that had elapsed since its
introduet:on, that it was not intended to proceed with it.
He believed the amended Bill had not been printed, and
in the hands of Members far more than a fortnight.
The Bill originally contained 216 clauses, but now there
were no less than 250 clauses in it. The clauses from
184 to 194 were clauses the object of which really was to
amend the Poor Relief Act, and he could not see upon
what ground these clauses had born introduced. Under
these circumstances be thought that some further time
ought to be given to enable Hon. Members to make them-
selves masters of the new provisions of the Bill. As he
read the Bill, if it became law, it would give,
power to the Town Councillors to create any
number of officers, to give .any amannt of salary, and
they would be enabled to supply any diffieiency
out of the Borough Fund, b) taxing ad libitum the inha-
bitants of the towns, and the clauses he relied upon to
support that proposition were the 79th and the 103 d. By
this Bill the town Cottrell would have power to appoint
the Hon. Member for Dublin to the office of Lord Mayor
of that city, and to vote him 50.0001. to support the office.
—( Laughter.) He ( Mr. Sergeant. Jackson) should cer-
tainly be happy to see the Hon. and Learned Member-
fill that office, but he must object to the principle laid
down in the Bill. In conclusion, the Hon. and Learned
Member trusted the Government would adopt the sugges-
tion of his Learned Friend the Recorder of Dublin.
Lord 111ORPETH said that be was disposed to take
that course which was most likely to advance the public
business of the eeteitry. If the Learned Recorder of
Dublin still adhetiM to the course he had pointed out, that
of only discussing those clauses which were necessary to
be discussed, he (Lord Morpeth) could have now no ob-
jection to allow the House to go into Committee now for
the purpose of taking sonic of the unobjeeted clauses, and
postponing theee on which a discussion was likely to arise.
Mr. O'CONNELL trusted, if the Noble Lord allowed
this course to he adopted, Hon Members would really go
on with the business of the Cororni-tee, acid discuss only
,•li.•ctiorottle clauses on art-her occasion. If Finn.
M nib,rs opposite were sincere, he thought the Noble
Lord had purchased place at a cheap rate.—(Laughter.)
Sir G. SINCLAIR believed the measure would be
productive of gre4 injury to the Protestant interests in
Ireland; and on the bringing up of the Report he should
certainly take the sense of the House upon it.—(ironical
cheers.)
The /louse then went into Committee ; Mr. Bernet in
the Chair.
Clauses up to 5 were agreed to withou-t opposition. Clauses 6 and 7 were postponed.
Clauses 8,9, and 10 were agreed to, and clauses 11, 12,
and 13 were postponed.
On clause 14 being read,
Mr. LIT YON objected to the Bill being proCeeded
with for that night.
Lord MORPETH hoped the Hen. Member would al-
lew the Committee tc go as far as clause 20. They were
merely formed clauses respecting boundaries, to which no
objection could be token.
The remaining causes up to 20 were then agreed to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped the Hon. Member
would give some notice of the amendment he meant to
propose.
Mr. SHAW would certainly take the earliest opportu-
nity of doing so.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro-
gress, and the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on
Thursday next.
DOWNING-STREET OFFICES.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, the following Committee on the Public
Offices. Downing-street, was appointed :—Mr. Gordon,
Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Goulburn, Mr.
Hawes, Sir R. H. Inglis, Mr. R. Steuart, Sir T. Fre-
mantle, Mr. Flume, Colonel Davies, Mr. E. J. Stanley,
Lord Charles Fitzroy, Mr. Planta, Sir De Lacy Evans,
and Mr. Greene.

—( Cheers.) The inquiry which the Government undertook
in Ireland did them great credit. In England 29 millions
had been paid, and 12 more were owing for Railroads—
had such an inquiry taken place here, many millions would
have been saved, and the railroad much more convenient.
Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer could
not be too particular in taking powers for enforcing the
repayment of the money, as it would do benefit both to
England and Ireland, in doing away with the prejudice at
present existing against lending money for public works.
Mr. Serjesnt JACKSON felt the very great import-
ance of establishing Railroads in Ireland, as well as the
immense benefit the object of the present Bill would con-
fer upon her. He knew that there was a strong but mis-
taken feeling abroad that this was a job, and that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had been subjected to
much unjust obloquy on the subject. —(llear, hear.)
He also felt it was his duty to state--as one of thaEe who
had opposed the Government plan for railroads in Ireland,
on its first introduction—to state that the measure subse-
quently brought forward by the Noble Lord had entirely
obviated the objections which he had entertained to the
original proposition, namely, the unfairness to the North of
Ireland, and the increase of patronage to the Government.
With regard to the loan to the clergy of Ireland, that could
not be considered in the light of a loan but of compens Alen,
because every farthing- of the tithes due to them would have
been:repaid had it not been for the interference of the House.
Ile trusted the public would understand that every farthing
which could fairly be considered as a loan from this coun-
try to Ireland, had been repaid with interest.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN would not object to the com-
pulsory assessments in this case. He joined Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the other side in imploring the Government to
re-consider the decision they had come to of abandoning the
Irish Railway scheme. He wished the question could be
brought to an issue, and the sense of the House fairly taken
on the subject, and he believed it would be carried by a
considerable majarity.
Lord MO R PETH would not now enter into the discus-
sion of the Railroad question ; he trusted his Right
Hon. Friend would be more successful in his scheme of
water carriage than he ( Lord Morpeth) had been
in his scheme of land carriage. He had been necessi-
tated to abandon that scheme ; but if he had been allowed
to prosecute the measure, he could assure the lion. and
Learned Member for Bandon that be would not have
found any thing in it tending to increase the patronage
more than was to be found in the present measure.
Mr WYSE was glad that the time had come when the
prejudices existing on this subject could be set at rest,
The same prejudices had eiCsted as to the impossibility of
obtaining repayment of loans advanced when the Board of
Public Works was first constituted. lie was astonished
at the gross ignorance manifested in the discussion on
the railroads of the mariner in which public works and roads
-re conducted in Ireland. It was, in fact, merely propos •
ing to extend a principle which hid for years pest been in
successful operation. He regretted to hear the decision of
the Noble Lord, and hoped that if in the course of next
Session lie did not bring the sulject before the House,
some other Member would, and give the Irish people an
opportunity of repelling the imputations which had been
east upon them. He agreed entirely with the Hon. Msm-
bsr for Kilkenny in the remarks he had made relative to
the railroads of England, and the effects which would pro-
bably have been produced had proper inquiries been pre-
viously instituted by the Government.
Mr. WARBURTON was anxious for the success of
the Government plan of railroads in Ireland, because he
should like to see a railroad undertaken by the Govern-
ment, in order to institute a comparison between that and
those undertaken by private companies. He hoped the
scheme was not altogether abandoned, but would be
brought forward in the course of the ensuing Session. As
a i\l'ember of the Committeeon Railroad Bills, he had seen
the public interest so f.equently sacrificed to private bar-
gains, in the present system of private companies, that he
was anxious to see one railroad undertaken by the Go-
vernment.
Mr. DARBY d'l not consider that by consenting to
this -Bill he was pledged to support any Government plan
for railroads in Ireland.
Mr. SHIEL thought that although in ninety-nine
eases the award of the Commissioners might be just, yet
in one it might be unjust, and therefore an appeal from the
dicision ought to be alloweel.
After a few words from Mr. Fisica and Sir D.
RoenE, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on \Vednesday.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into Committee on
the Public Works (Ireland).
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
as a resolution that 50,0001. of the 500,0001. voted for
Public Works in Ireland, be appropriated to the purpose
of granting loans in conformity with the Act 4, Wm. IV.,
and Ist Victoria.
Mr. 11 UhIE wished to know how much of the
500 000/ at present remained nnappropriated.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the object of the resolution was to subject all loans to the
provisions of the Act of Ist Victoria. He could state the
exact sum that remained unappropriated.
After a few words from Mr. AGLIONHY and Mr. Lucas,
Captain BOLDER() said there were no less than three
money Bina on the paper to-right, and he'wished to know
what sums had been given in the shape of loans and grants
for Englanri, and what fir Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the three Bills were the Loan Bill, a vote from the
Consolidated Fund, and the Shannon Navigstion 13i11.
The Lean Bill applied to a charitable loan society,
which did not receive sixpence frem the public purse,
but was for the purpose of lending assistance to re-
c,ssitous persons, not exceeding 51. each. As to the
second vote, it was a sum appropriated in the previous
Session. With respect to the third, it was a subject to
which the attention of the House !1,11 1),Y11 repeatedly
directed, and there were these or four volumes of reports
containing the whole of the estimated expendinues. This
was a matter which it was now proposed to carry into
ffect, aid he trusted tbe Han. G 'talent:or weuld see the:e
was not any disposition to act with uhclue partiality towards
that country.—( liar )
Captain BOLDER.° never before heard a que,tion so
complet, ly evaded. His question was, what wits the sum
toted advanced to In land ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
first, as he had already stated, was the loan fund.
Captain BO LDE R o—The amount?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No-
thing at all.—( Loud laughter.) Under the second head
riot a 'attiring of new money was voted; for the 50 000/.
wos taken out of a previous surd of 500.000 l , of which
450,0001 had been granted far England. With respect
to the Shannon, the whole sum, distributed over five or six
years, did not exceed 220,000/.--( Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to, and the House resumed.
SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. moved
the third reading of the Sugar Duties Bill.
Mr. E WART said he hard understood that this Bill was
not to be taken to-night.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as
the Municipal Bill for Ireland had been put off, anal as his
Hon. Friends the Members for Wigan and the Tower
Hamlets were in their places, he thought it would be far
more proper to go on with tine Bill now than to put the
House to the inconvenience of sitting to-morrow, on such
an unusual day.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr, MART could not
,allow the Bill to be read a
third time without making, some remarks.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said of
course the Honourable Member would be at full liberty to
bring forward the discussion which he wished to introduce.
Mr. E WART said he was afraid he was unprepared to
do justice to the subject he wished to notice, but if it were
the wish of the House, he would endeavour to proceed.—
(" Go on.") He desired to draw the attention of the
House to the probable high prices which sugar would
before long attain in this country, and the advantages
which would result to the cause of humanity, from so
modifying the laws protecting colonial sugar, as to admit
the produce of free labour. The House was perhaps
aware that petitions had been presented from some large
commercial towns, such as Liverpool and Glasgow, in
favour of a reduction of the duties on one species of fo-
reign sugar—that coming from the Brazils; representing
that our exports to the Brazils were so extensive, that they
amounted to several millions annually, whereas our im-
ports scarcely amounted to a million ; and that it was
therefore desirable to enlarge, if possible, our imports from
that country. Now the objection raised to this, by the
friends of freedom, was, that the produce of the Brazils,
was the produce of slave labour, and that it was
desirable to encourage the produce of free labour.
The price of British Plantation Sugar was 41s. 2d. per
cwt., of course exclusive of the duty of 245., and Manilla
of the same quality was selling at 235. 61. in bond. Look-
ing to the immense quantity of sugar consumed by this
country, between 3 and 4,000,000 cwt. anually, we had
a right to complain that the price of the article should
be-so much raised as it was by a duty imposed to favour
colonists, who heel already received, as he thought un-
justly, 20,009,0001. from the nation by way of compensation.
From all appearances there would not be a sufficient sup-
ply of sugar for the demand of this country during the
part of the present year which had passed, as compared
welt the corresponding period of 1839 there was a falling
off of importations to the amount of 18.500 casks. That
was a fact showing the necessity of a reform in the sugar
duties, and it ought to teach them to look with anxiety to the
future, because sugar must rise to such a price as must
force the question upon the attention of the Government
probably at a time when they were not prepared for
it. 'Tea, coffee, and cocoa, had much increased
in consumption, while sugar had actually retro-
graded; of coffte, in 1801, the consumption for each
individual was one ounce ; in 1838, it had amounted to
11b. 6 oz. The consumption of sugar in 1801 was 301bs.
to each individual, while in 1838 it was scarcely 241bs.
The people, therefore, were worse off now, so far as sugar
was concerned, than they were 30 years ago. If the effect
of reducing the duties upon coffee, cocoa, and tea, was
such an theressed consumption, surely he was entitled to
submit that they ought to attempt the same means with re-
gard to sugar. The question was one of great importance
to our shipping interest, for every one knew that without
returns commerce with foreign nations was out of the ques-
tion and must soon languish and decline. The sugar re-
finers had long been complaining of an inadequate demand
for their manufactures—all traceable to the same cause.
Government had certainly done something during the last
two years in the Drawback Bill and the equalization of the
duties on East India Sugar; but they had not gone far
enough, for they ought to have totally abolished bounties,
and have admitted the sugars of our possessions in India,
without any clog of certificate as to where it was grown.
It was not India alone that could supply us with free labour
sugar—it ought to be admitted from all parts of our pos-
sessions in India, undoubtedly, and we could get a plen-
tiful supply of good sugar from Singapore, Siam, and
Java. The principal supply would be from Siam,
where thirty years ago the cultivation of sugar was
unknown, at all events the people there were totally
unacquainted with its manufacture. Siam could now
supply 15,000 tons of sugar, the produce of free
labour from Manilla, that might export 15,500 tons,
and from. Java 20,000, the produce of free labour; for al-

-Mr. H. HINDE said his constituents felt deeply in-
terested in this subject. He would be sorry to admit
any competition with our colonies if it was possible to
avoid it, but he was afraid the time had now come when
their monopoly must cease.
Mr. THORNE LY felt great satisfaction at hearing the
declarations of the Right Hon. the President of the Board
of Trade, and quite agreed with him that no distinction
could possibly be made between the produce of free or
slave labour. He was most anxious to reduce the price of
all these necessaries of life—their price might not make
much difference in the weekly expenditure of Hon. Mem-
bers, but it was very different with the poor man.
Were gentlemen aware that the price of raw coffee in Java
was 3d. per lb. ? Persons in this country were mystified as to
the cost of foreign productions. It was of the utmost im-
portance that this subject should be thoroughly understood
He believed it was impossible to draw the distinction be-
tween ,lave labour and free labour; but was of opinion
that before long slavery would cease throughout the World.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS was convinced of the correct-
ness of the opinion of the President of the Board Trade
with regard to the importance of the trade with the Brazils,
and felt it was impossible to draw the distinction between
articles the produce of slave labour and of free labour.
If they were sincere in the desire to encourage habits of
temperance in the labouring classes, they should adopt
measures to render such articles as sugar and coffee as
cheap as possible.
Mr. E WART, after the explanation of his Right Hon.
Friend, would withdraw his motion. The motion was
then withdrawn and the Bill was read a third time and
passed.

CUSTODY OF INFANTS BILL.
On the mulion of Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD. the
Custody of Infants Bill was read a third time and passed,
'tiler certain amendments had bren introduced into it.
ADMIRALTY COURT.
Mr. C. WOOD moved the second reading of the Ad.
miralty Cour, Bill.

Cal;tain PECHE LL said great abuses axisted in those
Courts.

After a few remarks from Mr. HUME and Mr. C.
WOOD, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on Monday.
Mr. LANGDALE postponed the Land Tax Double
Assessment Bill until next Session.

The Joint Tenants Voting (rieland) Bill, and the Bank-
rupts (Ireland) Bill were reported, and ordered to be
committed.

On the motion of Mr. BAINES, the Borough Watch
Rates Bill was read a third :line, and passed.
After tome verbal amendments had been made,
The Tin Duties Bill was reported, read a second time,
and ordered to be committed.

On the motion of the SOLICITOR GENERAL,
the Borough Courts Bill passed through Committee.
The Exchequer Pleas Bill was read a third time and
pissed.

The Summary Jurisdiction Bill was postponed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL obtained leave to
bring in a Bill for abolishing arrest on mesne process in
civil actions, except in certain cases; for extending the
remedies of creditors against the property of debtors ; and
for amending the laws for the relief of insolvent debtors

though the old Dutch settlers possessed a few slaves, all
the cultivators of the land were free. From China
they might expect an annual supply of 6,000
tons, and from Cochin China of 1,000, and thus
while they were extending their commerce and
manufactures, they might strike a death blow at that
odious traffic the slave trade. He was sanguine enough
to look forward to the time when they might hope for a
supply of sugar and coffee from that seat of slavery, and
the slave trade Africa itself. He believed that the slave
trade could not be put down by armed vessels, but by
commerce. Once introduce commerce into Africa, and the
slave trade would be virtually at an end. He understood
that recently Coffee, the produce of free labour, had been
imported from Sierra Leone, and he was anxious that this
trade, as yet in its infancy, should receive encouragement,
because it held out to Africa the hope that she would at
length rise to her proper state among nations, and emerge
from that darkness into which she had so long been
plunged. He had been induced to direct the attention of
the House to this subject, because from the present defi-
ciency in the supply of sugar it was necessary to look out
for other sources from which to obtain it, and because by
giving the preference to free labour in sugar, we should be
setting an example to other countries who were rapidly
following our steps in the race of emancipation. He
hoped the adoption of such a measure would induce the
French colonies to adopt measures for immediate emanci-
pation, and that that mightier child of a mighty parent, the
United States of America, would follow our example,
and no longer suffer her liberty to act as the pander to
slavery, or permit her flag of stars to be the harbinger of
darkness instead of light. If this measure should be the
means of striking a blow, however indirect, at the odious
traffic in slaves, lie should feel himself happy in having
been the instrument of those persons who bad requested
him to undertake this duty. He would now, thanking the
House fur the attention with which they had listened to
this dry subject, con Jude by moving that sugar, the pro-
duce of free labour, should be admitted at the same rate of
duty as West India Sugar.
Mr. PEASE seeoud, d the proposition.
The CHANCELLOR of tile EXCHEQUER said
that his Hon. Friend the Member for Wigan must be
aware that this question involved many more considera-
tions than those to which he had alluded. It was no doubt
a general principle to get as much as we could at as
cheap a rate as possible ; but, in applying that principle, it
opened the whole question of colonial policy, which
it was not just to discuss on an incidental
question of sugar, without taking into consideration
the general subject. They ought n tto select one branch
of the colonial policy, and discuss it on the question of
supply and demand; fm when that question was open, it
ought to be open to all kinds of produce. With respect
to the reduction of the bounties on sugar and their equaliza-
tion, the steps which had been taken by the Governmei t
tended to the extension of trade and to increase the supply
of the article, and these steps had been assented to by
the West Indian body..—( Hoar.) The Hon. Member had
intimated that he looiced back with repentance on the
grant of 20,000,0001. He (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) could not entertain any such belief.—( Hear,
hear. ) The lion. Gent. had also stated, that the course
which he recommended would haSe the effect of inducing
foreign countries to adopt our plan, and that they were
eager to rush forward in the race. He wished the Hon.
Member could inform him what foreign countries were so
extremely desirous of following our example—( Hear,
hear)—for his Noble Friend, the Secretary for Fo-
reign Affairs, was not aware of any. But if there
were any, he believed the course pursued by the Hon.
Member, would be calculated to impede them in doing so.
He hoped the day would come when they would see this
measure followed out by foreign countries, but he hoped
the day would never come when gentlemen, who were
earnest in the cause of humanity, would extend it so far
as to interfere in the internal concerns of other States.
Mr. CLAY said the question of whether they were to
accede to the motion of the Hon. Member for Wigan or
not must depend on two points. First he had alluded to
the expediency of ascertaining whether the supply from
our Colonies, was adequate to the home consumption of
the country. That contingency had arrived, for
the supply was not adequate.--( Hear, hear, bear. )
The refiner came into competition with the home con-
sumer: and if, therefore, there was no refined sonar ex-
ported, that was a proof that there was less than the home
consumption required. The President of the Board of
Trade had last year lessened the amount of the drawback
on refined sugar, and in the policy of that measure
he (Mr. Clay) quite agreed; but no one knew better
than his Right Honourable Friend that he had not hereby
taken off the whole of the concealed bounty, which still
amounted to 6s. per cwt. It was clear that the people of
England were now paying the monopoly price for sugar.
With regard to the p"inciples which should govern this,
in respect to our West Indian colonies, he (Mr. Clay)
certainly admitted that we ought not to allow the slave
produce of other colonies to come in competition with theirs.
Hear.) Though this, indeed, looked like straining at
the gnat and swallowing the camel, for this nation took
400,000,0001b5. of slave cotton from America annually. If,
however, it could be shown that in any independent coun-
try the produce of free labour could be obtained more ad-
vantageously than in our own Colonies, we were bound to
give the people of this country the ben, fit of such advantage.
Mr. P. THOMSON said the Hon. Msmber for the
Tower Hamlets was under a misapprehension respecting
the concealed bounty he spoke of attaching to refined
sugar, for no such bounty remained. It was quite a delu-
sion to speak of the possibility of excluding all slave pro-
duce. —( Hear.) Why, besides the case of American cot-
ton, we annually raised 3.000,000/. from tobacco, ail
grown in slave colonies.—( War, hear.) The whole rt,' j et
of our treaties with for. ign countries was to awnit
their commodities; and would not the United States, or
the Brazilians (with whom we bed a most important com-
mercial treaty) reproach us with a violation of Treaties,
were we to exclude their produce ? Would they not say-,
" You agreed by treaty to take our produce, and take it
you ought. What tratters it to you Wll.l her it was grown
by free or slave labour ?"—(Hear.) The Hon. Menthe"
fur Wigan had himself often used this argument, and it
was only lately that he had taken up his present doctrine,
which no doubt would be popular with the and-slavery party.
The question must soon force it-elf upon their attention,
eot only from the sho,n, supple, but because the treaty
with Brazil expired in 1842. with two years notice. Our
trade with tot country amounted to upwards of four mil.
lions—it was second only to that with the United States,
and its produce was almost confect! to sugar and coffee.
That must force the question upon the attention of the
Government and Parliament, and he trusted they would
conic to a satisfactory and safe conclusion upon it.
As fur the short supply—the present state of the
West Ladies, and our growing papulation would also
naturally e.di the particular attention of the century
to the qu. stion. The duty on coffee had been greatly
reduced, and the increase of consumption had been enor-
mous—( Hear, hear)—but being confined for a supply to
our own possessions, and it being short, the price had very
greatly risen, and the consumption was now nearly sta-
tionary. The Government felt the deep importance of the
qnestion, and his conviction was, that before many years
they would be forced by the people of this country to con-
sider the whole question, as well as by the expiration of the
Brazilian Treaty.
Mr. HUME was much gratified to hear the admissions
of the Right Honourable Gentleman. Time question was
whether the people of this country would consent to
pay the same price this year, for -a two-third
supply as they did last year for a full one.
They would not ; and it was idle to talk of putting off the
consideration of the question till 1842 or 1844. The
people of England had been most liberal to the West In-
dians, and they would never allow the present monopoly
to exist. It was, however, absurd to attempt to draw any
distinction between free grown and slave grown sugar, or
anything else.