The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-24 00:00:00

BIRMINGHAM POLICE.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved, pursuant to notice,
that the Order of the Day for a Committee on the Bir-
mingham Police, with a view to vote money, should be
taken before the notices of motions.
Mr. LEADER wished to know if the Noble Lord in-
tended to persevere in this irregular mode of proceeding ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the house had so
generally concurred in what he intended to propose that
he hid not entered further into the grounds of his
proposition, when he asked leave for the Order of the Day
to he read before the notices of motion. It must be sufficiently
understood by the House that had he waited to have
brought forward this Order of the Day in the regular
course, until all the notices of motion should have been
disposed of, it would have come on at such a late hour that
it would have beer► objected to on that account. He would
now lay before the House the state of the case. Every
one was aware of the recent occurrences at Birming•
ham. They have at present there, by means of the
assistance of troops, .of the London police, and of the
yeomanry, sufficient means for the preservation of the
peace of the town, but no means exist of main-
taining it, except by means of the existence of this
extraordinary force, which tends to create disturbance in
the minds of the people of Birmingham, and is harassing
to the force employed.
Mr. LEA DER rose to order, but in consequence of
the feeling manifested by the House, he immediately re-
sumed his scat.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL would, therefore, seeing some
measure for procuring a permanent police for Birmingham
was absolutely necessary, ask the House if it would ad-
here so strictly to the order of proceedings as to
risk the continuance of the present state of things,
in that town. The measure was merely one for en-
abling the persons in authority there to constitute and
organize a police force; and he trusted the House would
let the Order of the Day have precedence of the regular
course of proceedings. At the same time he would say
that if there was any Notice of Motion of exceeding
urgency, he should have no objection to let it have prece-
dence of the Order of the Day.
Sir EARDLEY WILMOT agreed with the Noble

Lord as to the urgency of the case ; but there was one
Notice of Motion, charging the Magistrates of War-
wickshire with misconduct, which was also of very
great importance, as until those charges were cleared up
the Magistrates of Warwickshire were.under a cloud which
impaired their efficiency. He therefore hoped the Noble
Lord would consider that motion in the next place.
On the question being put that the Order of the Day be
now read,
Mr. II UME asked why the Corporation could not raise
the money_on their own security, without applying to the
Government. He did not object to the institution of a
police, but he thought that Corporations wero the best
judges of their own pecuniary affairs.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that this Corporation

was not empowered by law to raise money on the se-
curity of the rates, and anather reason was, that it was de-
sirable this question should not be complicated with the
consideration of other questions. At Manchester the Town

Council had issued orders to the churchwardens and over-
seers commanding them to assess a certain sum of money
as a borough rate fcr the maintenance of a police force for
that town. This had been resisted, and a question raised
to try the validity of the charter. No question of this sort
had been raised at Birmingham, and it was exceedingly
desirable that such should not be the case, which most pro-
bably would be the case if in the present state of excite.
ment the Corporation were to attempt to impose a rate.

Captain PECHELL would give way .to the Noble
Lord, but he was not disposed to postpone his motion for
the one alluded to by the Hon. Baronet.
Mr. WAKLEY understood the proposition of the
Noble Lord to be to proceed et once with the Order of
the Day, but he bad entirely failed to make out any case
showing why he should have precedence. Tuesday was
now the only day on which Members had a right to bring
on motions—that right ought not to be interfered with,
and if the Noble and Learned Lord and his friends would
stop in the House till nine or eleven o'clock, he would have
the advantage of bringing on the Order of tl .c Day after the
e pursued was to
discussion upon the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member
for Westminster. The only fair course to
dispose of the Notices of Motions, and
thenrbe proceed with
the o,d2r of the Day. If the House agreed to the motion
of the Noble Lord, he would predict that the House would
be counted out before seven o'clock.
thoeurgehthatdo aelrnetacc'reiinbteoena
condition atghraete
he
to
the House,
an attempt
mWptAtan BnetjunatTeOutN sapidapaesr
Honourable Members
who had noticc on the
compromise with the tNheoble Lord.onLceotntdhi
the proposition of .
and keep his friends
should agree to remain in the House
• e- If such an understanding were come to
all the evening.
' • the Noble Lord,
there could be no objection to the proposition of the Noble
Lord.
Mr. S C HoLEFIE LD hoped the House would agree
to the motion of the Noble Lord, for it was very im-
portant that no time should be lost. It was said that the
poop? Birmingham of oam objected strongly to the presence of
the London police. The only way in which they could
be got rid of was to enable the Magistrates of Birming-
ham to raise a police force fir themselves.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought there ought to las an ex-
ception even upon a Tuesday, under the circumstances of
the case then under discussion. It was no time to
stand upon strict forms when houses were burning,
and at the present time they were not enabled to
spare more than from 4,000 to 5,000 troops from Ireland.--
(Laughter.) Ho really thought the proposition of the
Noble Lord ought to be agreed to.
Mr. E WART said that his name stood first on the
notice paper—he thought the proposition of the Noble

Lord was so reasonable, that he would at once give
way—( Cries of " Hear, hear") tint he trusted that
the Noble Lord would agree to act upon the suggestion of
the Hon. 111eihber for Eridport.
Mr. HUM E had no objection to that course, if the
Noble Lord would agree to it, but he must promise not
only to remain himself, but to keep his friends, and prevent
them from deterring others from coming into the House.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said the old fashioned manner
of proceeding was to consider of and redress grievances
before granting money. Now, the motion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Westminster related to a very
great grievance. Why should not it have prece-
dence ? Again, why should they put their hands
into the public purse, in order to support a police for
Birmingham, the largest town in the kingdom, pro-
vided with a Corporation for its own government. He
predicted that it was only giving the money away ; it would
be Ile that loan of a million which was given to the Irish
parsons.—(oh, oh.) The Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin bad talked of the Order of the Day having prece-
dence because houses were burning in Birmingham. The
cause of all that was the conduct of that House. They
might add 5,000 men to their army they might increase
the police force, but it would all be of no use so
long as that House went on in its present course.
On a subsequent occasion, his Hon. Friend the Member
for Birmingham, supported by his Hon. Friend the Member
for Oldham, presented a petition from 1,200,000 persons.
They asked the House to take it into consideration only,
but not more than forty-eight Members could be found
to vote in favour of their motion. Could they believe the peo-
ple would be contented when they had added 5,000 men to the
(bbAcet
rbo.
believed
IDui
es.
ve)e idf
believed
groat a t House
dtoihsuces per-
severedoecnotue nn
aarnmddi
sotrri
distress
that
try was in a dangerouse thhea policecourse.
swt :Hue e;d
being passed before the country had any time to reflect
upon it, would cause great consternation and dismay
throughout the country. On the -22 d of July, within,
prevailed, and a vote of the sort then proposed
in all probability, three weeks of the close of the Session,
the Noble Lord came down from the House and said the
country was in such a state that he must increase the army
to the extent of 5,000 men, and advance 10,000/. to the
Corporation of Birmingham to keep the town quiet.
He did not believe that would keep the town
quiet. He believed the House would have to listen to
aad redress the grievances of the people, before the town
of Birmingham or the country generally was quiet again.
There was a grievance complained of in the petition which
his Honourable Friend, the Member for Westminster,
had given notice of ; but to which the Government wished
to give the go by. If the Noble Lord got his 10,000/,
first, then, as his Honourable Colleague (Mr. Wakley)
had said, all the gentlemen would go to their dinners, and
s who
in-
tended Mr. FRENCH
tahtyFoe. noticesßpp would
rEe
000pNn Ctsebheeleolfaphstale
oncepi Englanddaedrt addition
a-t ettioroi were anxious starving
accedevxosi
,Ocogul atilootnooi
ndtnh neen tMdptti
orehs
otmertpmiebiolessori
army?tni 0, the
n f
the Noble Lord.--( Hear, hear.)
Sir 11. H ARD ING E inquired when the Noble Lord in-
Lord J. RUSSELL could not then answer that ques-
tion, but would in all probability on Monday (as we under-
stood).

Mr. D'ISRAELI thought, before the House agreed to
any one of the projects of the Noble Lord, they ought to
inquire into the causes of the insurrectionary spirit, and
whether the conduct of Government was concerned in that
insurrectionary spirit. How could they tell but that the
cause of it might not be the country having to struggle
with a weak Government?—(Hear, hear, hear, and a
laugh.) The Noble Lcrtl ought to state his case to the
country, for all his projects; he ought net to take an
isolated point, and if this were a case of such great urgency
the Hon. Members for Birmingham, ought themselves to
advance the money. —(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. E ASTH OPE said there might he much in what
his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury had said as to
the causes of the d►scontent that existed in the country;
but it was surely the first duty of Parliament to do that
which was best calculated to secure tranquility. It was
the duty of every Member of that House, and of every
reflecting member of society, first to secure tranquillity,
and then to inquire into the causes of that tranquility
having been clisturlied. He hoped they would show the
country there was a firm determination in that House to do

that Which was the best adapted, and in the roost effective
Form, to secure the tranquillity of the country. lie should
cordially give his support in favour of taking the proposi-
tion of the Noble Lord first into consideration.--( Hear.)

Mr. LEADER did not see there was such very great
urgency for the motion of the Noble Lord. He believed
the disturbances in. Birmingham had been very much ex-
aggerated, and these propositions of the Goverament
would tend to increase the excitement that already existed.
He would persevere in his objection to the irregularity
on the part of the Noble Lord, and would take the
sense of the House upon it.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to make one obser-
vation upon the mode of proceeding he had pro-
posed that night, because what had been stated was
ealeulat2d to create a false impre3sion out of
doors. is was said lie was now proposing that an
Order of the Day should take precedence of No-
ticesof Motion. Now %hen that petition, signed by

1,200,000 persons came on for discussion, he had
himself proposed, although the Order of the Day
then took precedence, that the discussion on that
petition should be taken first.—( Hear, hear.) He had not
endeavoured to shirk the discussion, but had fairly met
the reasons urged by the Honourable Gentlemen
who proposed and supported the motion. That motion was
therefore disposed of in the most deliberate manner, and
he ( Lord John) had not by the course he then took pre-
cluded himself from doing that which be now proposed.—
( Hear, hear.)

•
Sir ROBERT PEEL felt it to be his duty to sup-
port the Noble Lord, and he thought what had been
said about the danger of leaving that great manu-
facturing town in the possession of a mob—houses
being set on fire and pillaged —and the whole
being in a state of anarchy, did constitute a sufficient rea-
son for proceeding at once to con.ider what steps -should
be taken to restore tranquillity. There vbas something so
peculiar in the circumstances of the country, in the announce-
ment that had been made, and in the known facts of what had
taken place at Birmingham, that he thought it would be of
the greatest advantage they should take the earliest op-
portunity of providing a civil force, so that that portion of
the civil force now there might be removed from the town.
He was confident that the sooner they removed the me-
tropolitan police from Birmingham, consistently with a de-
termination to supply its place with another, the better.
A civil power acting within its own limits could resort to
acts of extreme rigour without exciting the feelings
which would be excited by the introduction of a force not
known to the locality.--( Hear, hear, hear.) He thought
the present case justified a departure from the
ordinary rules, and that there was no likelihood of
its being drawn into a precedent. The House would be
best performing its duty by taking effectual measures for
maintaining the public tranquillity.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. FIE L DEN said it was undouLtedly the duty of the
House to secure the tranquillity of the country, but the
question was whether the mode proposed by the Noble
Lord was the most likely to attain that object. He ( Mr.
F.) thought the best mode of trying to conciliate the
people was to endeavour to redress the grievances of which
the people complained. The complaint was of the London
police having been sent down, and the general feeling was
that the disturbances arose from their introduction. Then_,
ought the House to take steps to accumulate a force which
was not likely to allay the irritation which prevailed ? The
House ought to redress the sufferings of which the people
complained instead of providing a force to put down their
complaints, which most assuredly never could be put down
by such mans.—( Hear.) Ho trusted the Hon. Member
for Westminster would take the sense of the House on the
question. If Reformers would back applications to put
down the complaints of the people, who were starving for
want of food, the present would be worse than theborough-
mongering Parliament.
Sir C. BURRELL thought there was no ground for

supposing that the riots arose from the presence of the
police. Riotously disposed persons, of course, disliked
the appearance of any force designed to preserve the
peace. He attributed these disturbances to the inflam-
matory speeches which had been made by various parties.—
The industrious can always find a subsistence ; but the
idle and dissolute would naturally be distressed. He be-
lieved the country was in a prosperous state, could people
but let well alone. But there were always, unfortunately,
discontented persons, inclined to excite insurrection, and
plenty of thieves and vagabonds ready to catch the infer, '
tion.--( Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. PHILLIPS was not one of those who believed
that these riots were the immediate result of distress,
( Hear, hear.) But he considered that the House
would desert its duty to the general welfare of the
nation, and to those industrious classes whose in.
tcrests were jeopardised, if the proposition of the
Noble Lord were not agreed to.—( Hear, hear.) " Nero
ffddled, while Rome was burning." Let not that House
in imitation of such an example neglect to consider the
means for preserving life and property.—( Hear, bear.)
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House dividad, when there appeared-_
For the Motion
144
Against it
it wouldmoving the resolution
circumstances
3
Majority for the Motion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said in —l4l
which he intended to propose,d
whichesirable
that lie should detail some of the
had made it necessary for him to propose the present
vote. It had been stated that when a number of
persons were lawfully met together, and conducting
themselves peaceably fir the
purpose of discussing public
grievances, they were interrupted by a sudden attack on
the part of the metropolitan police, and an attempt had
been made to
a He
w that
hthat
hwas a wanton and
unprovoked attack.
state what had been the representationstougt it
made
esstary
to
him
o
Kith respect to the state of Birmingham previous to the
late occurrences. For some time there had been meetings
held at which the most violent and inflammatory lan-
guage was used. On ono occasion certain persons
were arrested and held to bail for using. such
language. But within the last month the practice of
holding these meetings had very much increased, and it
became the habit. of a number of persons tumultuously
assembled together to march through certain parts of the
town with banners, and by that means alarming the people.
Representations were made to the authorities of Birming.
ham, that the trade of persons, carrying on their lawful
business in the thoroughfares, through which the crowds
passed, was endangered and disturbed by these meet-
ings.—(llear, hear.) It was stated at the same time
that there was not an adequate civil farce in the
town for the arrest of the persons so conducting
themselves. Now it was a great mistake, but a mis-
take which might easily be fallen into, to suppose that
when there was no actual riot and breach of the
peace, no actual damage to persons and prorerty, th
at
such t at
such meetings could be - .
ennsidt.,cd lawful. The
authorities on this subject showed
lie would one or t/at such was not
the ease. just quote '•
two, because lie
thought the opposite opinion was likely to
lead
to great
mischief, because persons might i enti
them-
selves with meetings of an unlawfulcharacter,nlmey
supposing
.
that no injury would happen to them fromthur ;nods'ur-
gence of their curiosity. In the special commission of