The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-25 00:00:00

THIRD READINGS.

The following bills ware read a third time and passed :
Trustees (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill—Navy Prize
Agents' Bill—Nuisances Removal Act (1855) Amendment
Bill--Union Relief'Aid Acts Continuance Bill--Turnpike
Trusts Arrangements Bill—Railway Clauses Bill—Water-
works Clauses Bill—Turnpike Acts Continuance Bill—
and Petty Sessions Bill.
EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY then rose for the pur-
pose of bringing under their attention the first report of
the Children's Employment Commission. The noble lord
dwelt upon the sufferings inflicted on young children em-
ployed in the making of lucifer matches, percussion caps,
pottery, pillow lace, &c., and concluded by drawing a
horrible picture of the tortures inflicted on climbing boys,
who were still employed to clean chimneys, notwithstand-
ing the act of Parliament to the contrary. He insisted
that it was the duty of a civilised and Christian Legisla-
ture to rescue these children from the moral and physical
degradation entailed by their employments by enforcing
acts of Parliament against those who violated them, and by
protecting the health of the children by improved ventila-
tion, earlier hours, and less continuous work.
The subject then dropped.
POLAND.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE rose to move for any
reports that might have been received from our diplomatic
or consular agents on the continent, of atrocities committed
or threatened by Russians or Poles since Ist May; and to
inquire whether her Majesty's Government have reason to
hope that the civil war now raging in Poland will be hence-
forth conducted according to the usages of civilised war-
fare. Whether Poland was to be, or could be, restored to
a peaceful condition under the dominion of Russia, or attain
her independence, he left to his noble friend. He did not
wish to involve her Majesty's Government in any declara-
tions. He merely wished to have the atrocities and cruel-
ties of the civil war put a stop to. He might be told that
those cruelties and atrocities were not confined to one side.
That was very possible. But what he wanted was official
information with regard to them. Having interfered in the
matter at all we were bound to go on and see the difficulty
dealt with in an effective manner. The position in which
we at present stood was almost unprecedented. The French
people were, perhaps, rather more deeply involved than we
were, but both countries were so far involved that they
could not draw back. The Governments of the two coun-
tries had never before taken so active a part in concert in
the affairs of another great Power. Any one who would
have predicted a year age that the Governments of France
and England, with Austria, would have acted such a part
in concert, would have had his political sagacity ridiculed.
He would not have been deemed very wise or well in-
formed. The ground upon which the Government had
rested their interference was in order to put a stop to the
effusion of blood and to those atrocities which shocked
all Europe. But what had been the effect of
their communications, if they had had any effect at all ?
Day after day they read that greater cruelties, or, as the
Russians called them, " more energetic measures," ware
adopted. Not only had the representations of England
not been attended to, but they ware not treated in the
manner which we had a right to expect. Since the re-
monstrances of England had been first forwarded to St.
Petersburg, General Mouravieff had been sent into the dis-
turbed districts, and that decree had been published by him
which sentenced ladies wearing mourning to be treated in
the same manner as common women of the town. He wished
for official information as to whether those atrocities against
which we bad protested had been checked, or whether they
had been officially contradicted. He did not think they
could be contradicted, because names of persons and places
and dates were given with such accuracy of detail that it
was not likely they would be given unless the facts were as
stated. They heard of Polish peasants being marched at
the head of bodies of Russian troops to cover their advance
against the Polish insurgents. They heard of bishops and
archbishops exiled or imprisoned, and a priest, who had per-
formed his sacred duties to his God and his fellow-country-
men by attending to minister to the dying, was at first con-
demned to death, and afterwards, by way of an act of
mercy, his sentence was commuted to 12 years' imprison-
ment. With regard to the despatch of Prince Gortschakoff,
it was not very encouraging to observe the sneers which he
directed against his noble friend. The noble earl might pro-
bably take no notice of these sneers, but it was intolerable,
and it was what neither France nor England could en-
dure, when they found that, in addition to the manner in
which their remonstrances were treated, more energetic
measures were demanded to put down the insurrection.
They might say that they were resolved not to go to war,
but they were bound solemnly, before God and man, to put
a stop to those atrocities. He did not understand his noble
friend (Earl Russell) to say that on no account would he
allow himself to be drawn into war. What he understood
hint to say was merely that, in their interference, they had
no desire to injure Russia, for the disturbed state of Poland
was moat prejudicial and dangerous to the Russian empire.
As England and France had begun, they had a right to say
that. at least the war must be carried on according to the
usagcs of civilization, or else they must take part in it.
They must put a stop to such unchristian and barbarous
practises.

Earl RUSSELL said that his noble friend asked him for
official papers relating
hotin had g
Poland. In reply,to what is at present going on in
to state that he found it was very
disadvantageous to
our
communications
agents abroad to make
public their co
Of course it to her Majesty's Government.
was eggentiallis
that her Majesty's Government
should have the moat authentic
matie agents told them that information, but their diplo-
any reliable and useful
information if it were to be laid
before Parliament. The
which his noble friend bad alluded were, of course, very
when applied to Lord Napier had said
was, that all What
afford was derived from the information he could
Her Majesty's Consul at W the Russian
Government.
ac-
counts, but those accounts Werearsawgave them other
said, from reports which came to of course denied, as he
and quarters. Not oniyamtb him from various parties
meat obtain less information eirfefore, would the Govern-
sent received were made public,
which they at pre-
might be misled. His noble friendbat Parliament itself
conduct cf General Mouravieff with regard had spoken of the
women. As to the decree issued by the regard
to the Polish
taken to be perfectly authentic. It hed general, it might be
throughout Europe, and as it had
been long published
not
tradicted it might be taken as authentic When
officially con-
had asked Prince Gortschakoff what had hen Lord Napier
with regard to it, Prince Gortschakoft admitted
taken place
ladies were arrested for being found drerassietdted thaurntwir
they had been fined But he said that the whole'air' ---g
amounted only to £llO or £120; that they had ofb the fines
and that the insurrectionary badge had ceased toebea paid,
bited. He did not think their lordships would feel satisfied"-
lt* that wet e all the information the Government could
in answer to the motion of his noble friend. With respect
the general question, his noble friend said that they ought
not to have begun or taken any steps unless they were pre-
pared to obtain what they asked. His opinion on that sub.
ject differed from that of his noble friend. He thought it
might be often well to make representations to other Go-
vernments, without being prepared to present them with
the alternative of war. He should notice what was a very
great misrepresentation of what he had said in the house on
a former occasion. It appeared that Mr. Horsman had
somehow made a statement, which was really so important
and so evidently in contradiction to what he (Earl Russell)
really had said, that he should call their lordships' atten-
tion to it. He found it stated that the statements which
he (Earl Russell) was suppose] to have made was, that
however much the honour and interest of England might
demand it, however much the safety of Europe might re-
quire it, England could on no account draw the sword for
Poland. That was manifestly so absurd that it was obvi-
ously impossible he could have made such a statement. The
argument which he did use was this —that where the honour
and independence of England were in question, there could
be no calculation of consequences, but they must defend
their honour at whatever cost. But he also said that when
the question was one of general humanity, and one affect-
ing the balance of power, and the bearing of certain
treaties, it then became the Government, before taking any
"nursemt or coming to any conclusion, and it became Parlia-
ment,
he'tbefere taking any decision, to consider find see clearly
object was which they vi had in • ew, and the probe-

bility of whether they had the means of effecting that object.
There was no question either with regard to the honour, or
the independence, or the safety of the country. t was a
question for national consideration whether the w ere likely
to obtain the object they had in view, and espe+3 dy whether
that object was a definite one. There we, wever, ano-
ther statement made in the bamit speech ery different
character. He meant that which attribute ;to him a state-
ment, that if Poland obtained her independence, it would be
not only without the goodwill, but contrary to the judgment,
the wish, and the desire of England. Something like that
construction was put upon his speech by a noble earl oppo-
site. He might have expressed himself somewhat obscurely.
Probably what he said might have borne that interpretation,
but it certainly was not what he meant to have conveyed.
He had ventured to express some time ago his opinion with
regard to the independence of Poland,and he hoped that that
independence would one day or other be restored. But what
he was arguing was, that an independent Poland which would
be established by foreign Powers,whether it was by France,
or Austria, or England, might become an element of dis-
order and danger in Europe. It appeared to him that that
was not only a fair argument, but it was just what would
happen. If Poland were able to establish her own indepen-
dence, it would be an element of order and peace in Europe.an
But if foreign Powers were to establish what was
calledexist of
itself,
independent kingdom of Poland, which could not
xnpospeedntdoconne orti extendnentalc itsoniii te
to i
maintain t
i wereit its exposed
encterritory—andagitation,
i f
France and England were to be continuaiyca led
port that kin gd om,which they had thus artificially
upeorne
at
toe sdu,
hp e-
believed that such a kingdom would be a source not of order
lain one—and he did not think it was
was his
one a r
fromg um e
wn th—i ach very
men
p but of disorder in Europe. That
With regard to what was going
in general would dissent.
ment had received a vnery l
aid before the house. All he had
on at the present moment inimEpuerrotpaen,theeremMmajnenstiyea'stiGenovfetrenm-
Russia, which had bee
part of it was a
to say upon that communication
ewnast
the
e thatpatrht ee of nRI yups
eijaac ttiheaati
recommendation
Austria actshouldceoymbshmeenaldndhnld a conference in concert with
betweenithPrussi the
Prussia and
Russia; that they
th
done with
that they should settle the details of what should
be
with regard to the six points ; and that when
they had come to an end of their labours, and agreed to cer-
tain details and in asures. England and France were to have
the benefit of being informed of the result. That was the
only practical proposal. He was glad to say that no sooner
was that proposal made to Austria, than the Austrian Go-
vernment at once telegraphed to St. Petersburg declining
the proposition. (Hear, hear.) He had had placed in his
hands by the Austrian Ambassador a vet y able and straight-
forward despatch in which Austria entirely refused to be a
party to such a conference. He could only say that, so far
as the communications had as yet gone, France and Austria
were entirely agreed with England as to the views which
they took of the subject. But he certainly would not be
justified in producing any papers such as were asked for by
his noble friend, or in entering any further into the subject.
Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE did not under-
stand his noble friend (Earl Russell) to say that on no
account would England go to war. As to the course
which Austria had pursued, he was sure the house must
view it with the greatest satisfaction. Austria was no
longer the oppressor of Italy and the great bar to pro-
gress and enlightenment. England could look to her as
an efficient co-operator in her efforts to promote liberal
ideas, and she had fairly entered on the path of prospe-
rity and progress. He could not quite agree with his
noble friend near him (the Marquis of Clanricarde). This
question was one of a nature more extensive than that of
mere humanity alone. A great nation of several millions of
men were forced to rise against the power which oppressed
them, even although that power was so great as that of the
Russian empire. And when the severity which Russia had
heretofore exercised was considered, they had a strong as-
surance that the character of the repression which that em-
pire would apply to Poland would assume the form of exter-
mination. Cruelty and violence must mark every movement
under the circumstances and conditions of the war. The
war was carried on contrary to every principle of humanity
and it was most likely to endanger the peace of Europe.
The Russian despatch laid upon the table byhis noble friend
was little calculated to convey an assurance of a hopeful
character. The spirit in which it was composed was mani-
fest in the language used. It was a matter much to be re-
gretted that a paper of so muchimportance, proceeding from
a Power of such high standing in Europe, should be marked
by the use of sarcastic language. We surely had a right to
expect in the answer to our despatch not only a civil reply,
but one marked by some regard for humanity. Diplomacy
on the present occasion had assumed the appearance of a
mere form. The existence of that plague sore in Europe
could not be allowed. It could not exist without constant
danger to the peace of Europe and to all its commercial in-
terests. If the policy of a great country like this was to be
determined by the fear of war, Great Britain had better
throw up the commission of its greatness, and sink back
into the second place, which would best become it. She
could not hold a position of this kind without serious re-
sponsibilities ; and, if she shrank from undertaking these,
she would set a vicious example to the other nations of
L the world, and lay the basis for disturbances in Europe.
She must advance; and there were measures which she
might adopt that would not justify Russia to go to
war with her, and were consistent with the law of nations
which a sense of duty would impose on her. He must ad-
mit that a policy of that kind could not be pursued
without exposing Great Britain to the hazard of war—(hear,
hear, from the Opposition)—but when a duty was imposed
on her she ought not to shrink from it, especially if the
future tranquillity of Europe was mixed up therewith. But
he did not apprehend war; Russia was not the Russia of
ten years ago. She felt the reaction of that course of policy
which she pursued so long ; the losses in war and the effect
on her national prosperity of those causes which other
countries felt in consequence of her intrigues ; and while
Great Britain ought not to take advantage of the weakness
of a friendly Power to press her views to extremity, it would
be for the interest of Europe that she should not be too deli-
cate in the discharge of her duties.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he could not find
fault with her Majesty's Government. He had said in the
early part of the session that it was Their duty to place them-
selves at the head of public opinion in Europe, and he was
now glad to testify that they had tried to do so. He felt
that the answer of Prince Gortschakoff would put an end
to all attempts to continue diplomacy, and to go further in
that course would be an evil. It was said that there was
no use in this interchange of diplomatic notes; he felt there
was this great advantage, that in the results they knew the
exact position in which they were. It remained for her
Majesty's Government, this act being over, plainly to con-
sider what they would do. He did not think that it would
be expedient for him to enter on that; it was a subject
which required the utmost consideration, and he felt that
he could not assist them if he endeavoured to show them
what their duty was on one side or the other. He did not
vote for any letters from 'Warsaw or any other part of
Poland to substantiate the statement of the atrocities which
the Poles were called on to suffer; the proclamations of
General Mouravieff were in themselves an atrocity ;
the state of things—a general confiscation of property,
and the want of appreciation of public feeling—was in
itself an atrocity— (cheers)—as yet unknown in Europe.
He felt convinced more and more every day that, despite
the prudence of the Cabinet, desirous though they might be
to prevent the advance of war into Europe, their attempt
would be in vain if the atrocities continued. The feeling of
the peoples of Europe, in that event, would overcome the
prudence of their Governments. (Cheers.) He trusted
the Russian Government would feel this. She had had the
same advantage in governing Poland that Austria had in
Gallicia and Prussia in Posen ; in those they saw great pro-
sperity for the last 33 years, whereas the kingdom of Poland
had been in a state of determined insurrection. (Hear, hear.)
The cause was bad government—(cheers)—and bad govern-
ment only; and consequent on this, that brutal contempt
for the feelings of those who were governed, against which
human nature revolted. Their lordships desired the con-
tinuance of the state of things which was established by the
Treaty of Vienna. It was not drawn up without delibera-
tion; and the countries had become accustomed to it. If it
were materially altered, the effect must be to break up the
peace of Europe; but Russia rendered it impossible to carry
it out by the course on which she entered. Had Russia de-
rived any advantage from possessing Poland ? (Hear, hear.)
Was there any prestige from governing Poland as she did ?
Prestige was derived from success in war, and other opera-
tions, but in Poland she had proved a failure. (Hear, hear.)
He (Lord Ellenborough) wished that the Emperor, speak-
ing through his ministers, and attributing his troubles to
the revolutionary feeling in France and other countries,
would consider that he was the first revolutionist in En-
raogapeh,liant
property,plaing
and
ictththeaEt Emperor
Eropero
er was a
Emperor and oratnhde hheiasdfaomf
family
He ventured to
would suffer if he adopted such a line. But if the
Emperor looked through the history of nations, and
especially of the nations of the East, with which he was
mhiomre
nimatmetdaiasteeely
thcoantneeted, it would be impossible for
efficacious in the
as toseverity might erity
govern!nutteefanndatgteensnertohsaintythweegrerematoerset
se
aevime tyt for though
w;
create an apparent
sure
be
followed by a reaction and state of
things more dangerous than
that which preceded the calm.
There had been atrocities
mentioned
treatment of women, which it •• and especially their
who lived in civilised Eu was impossible that any one
(Cheers.) Tho man who o rtrone could have sanctioned.
his enemy, and exposed hintaseritfett
ll the women made mankind
(Cheers. And yet it was impossible consequences.
atrocities to women were without the
of to believe that the
and he was the favourite agent of orders of Mouravieff,
ment. He left the matter in the hands ofubsseian Govern.
Government ; he would not increasetheir
difficulties by
offering any advice, and trusted they would most
tulties by
consider the next step ; but if that step ese gravely,
a one of di
macy, it would fail, as it did the first, (Cheers.) pl o-
The Earl of MALMESBURY said he never, since 1853,
felt so much apprehension as to the state of Europe as he
did at the present time. The safe course for the Govern-
ment to pursue was one of non-intervention, the policy
which they adopted when they entered on office. The Go-
vernment could show their displeasure in this case as they
did in that of Naples, by ordering their ambassador to with-
draw from St. Petersburg; and in taking this step they
would not be giving cause of war. The noble lord concluded