The Sun.
London, England, 1801-11-26 00:00:00

MILITIA.

TO BE SOLD BY PRIVATE CONTRACT,
At Nlanuden, near Bishop Stortford, Herts,
Substantial BRICK and TILED SASH WIN.
qto, ;DOW ED MANSION, called MANUDEN HOUSE,
t twining on the Attic, or Garret. Story, four Servants
Booms Ms and two Store Rooms ;on the Chamber Floor, six
zo-mtAboinsfand
,two Closets; On the Ground Floor, a. Hall
beet by 18, d Drawing Room 16 by 16, a Dining Room
a Library x 6 by 16, and a Gentleman's Dressing"
-.s4strl and an exceeding good Kitchen and Pantry ; on the
Agent Story is a Butler's Pantry and three cellars.
"411,-ried is a Brewhonse, with a Laundry, small Servant's
Det,;41(.1 knife Room over it.
ho,7.xise:ciled is a Wash-house, Dairy, and Larder, Coach-
use for three Carriages, stalled Siabling_for Nine Horses,
‘vitirather necessary and convenient Out-offices, together
44j0il 5, jards, Garden, *Pleasure:Ground, and inclosed Land
In
•,,,kiso containing Seventeen Acres, more or less.
several detached Parcels of inclosed Land, containing
~,ill9l Acres, more or less, and several Parcels of Com-
etit'eld.Land, containing Thirteen Acres more or less;
ijhe With three Cottages,
hoollt Estate is FREEHOLD, and TI TILE FREE, except
r,lileasa°,l4,F.Acre and thirty-two fetches.--It is situated a
tj and healthy part of the Country ; about three miles
),hich".e Market Town of Bishop Stortford aforesaid, to
Orn„ll:ere is a navigable River; about two miles frOm the
.41irtV Road to Newmarket,- and near ti,i,..•Packs of
s• • - • -
;kl4l,,,peighbourhood is respeCtable, and whole is well
lof br :sportsman, genteel Private. Family, '
awe t• t •
urthS'i pirt culars, apply to M. if lAitporriey at
b 1111 mow, Essex •

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Th. SECRETARY at .WAR rose, in pursuance
of the notice he had given on the preceding even-
ing. He adverted to the several Ads passed for
raising a Militia, and Supplementary Militia; and
for authorizing-the enlistment of a certain-number
of the Militia-in the Regular Regiments ;by the
Ads for which latter purpose the several Countiet,
were to be exempted from filling up the vacancies
• ,
occasioned by- any member of the Militia entering
into Regular Reginientsi upon producing the
Certificates of Enlistment of such Persons.—Many
Counties had, he said, sent in no Certificate of
Enlistment, and were, therefore, liable to fill up all
vacancies in their respedive Regiments of Militia.
A great part of the Militia would be entitled to
their discharge six months after the concitniion. of
Peace ; there would Consequently be a general ballot
to fill up vacancies. As the. Law now stood, the
Counties being so liable, wouM be obliged to rais,,
a greatornumber: of men than before the establish-
ment of the Supplementary Militia, and a greater
timber •than it was necessary that they should raise,
it being only intended that each County should
raise a-fair proportion of the number of men, which
-constituted the Old Militia, before the establish-
ment of the Supplementary Militia. He therefore
moved-for leave to bring in a Bill for regulating the
Ballot-'for Persons to serve as Militia Men, for the
several Counties, Ridings, and Places in England,
and for supplying Vacancies in the said Militia.--
He merely intended it, he said., as a temporary
measure for the present, as the House might after-
wards permanently decide upon theplan most eligible
to be adopted.
Sir W. ELFORD wished to know, whether it
was intended to adhere or not to the mode of ballot-
ing, formerly adopted, with respeft to the Old Mi-
litia ;—he hoped not: )- _

Thy SEC RETARY
,at WAR explained.
Lord TEMPLE wished to
,know, if the measure
was to be adopted for any specific time.

The SECRETARY at WAR said, it was a tem—
porary measure, and might be, perhaps, for six or
twelve month's.

Leave was given.

POOR.

Mr. NEU7ROLT moved the Order of the Day
for the second' reading' of the Bill relative to the
Relief of Poor Persons not wearing certain Badges.
Sir. IV. ELFORD said, he did not rise to op-
pose the Motion, but he wished to say a few words
made
in to some Observations which had been
in a former stage of the present fill. It .had been
said that the Poor had a right to Relief. It would
be reeolleaed, that previous to the Mt of William
111. the Poor were in a great measure supported by
Voluntary Contributions; but some persons not
contributing 'a fair proportion according to their
property, that _Ad,established a compulsory Rate.
In thus' giving Relief to the Poor by means of a
compulsory rate, it Night be said that the Legis-
lature had a right to impose the conditions upon
which that Relief should be administered. A sys-
tem, hOwever, which had been so long established,
ought not, he thought, to be touched upon slight
grounds. He thought it would be. much better to
abolish the Badge altogether, than to compel Over-
seers to apply to. a Magistrate in every instance of
Relief granted by them, where the Badge might be -
thought improper.
Mr. NEWBOLT said,. the motive which ori-
ginally induced him to bring this measure forward,
was the conduft of a Gentleman in the West of
England, who was. very solicitous. to cat ry. all rhe
Penal Laws .into execution, and who had commenced '
prosecutions against several Overseers under the Ail`
of Willi:un,lll, for relieving poor persons not wear,
ing the Badge prescribed by that Mt. The Ov#:. _
seers were thus compelled to .carry that` Mt into
execution.. The Aft was,wholl,y, unknown in that
part of the Country, and the .execution
_of it was
so .odious-to the People, that seyeraltiots had taker
place in consequence of it.,„ anul , much 'tiksturbancie
wa:s..apprehended. It should 'be ie,men&r4lP ;hit .
,•

the state of the Poor at the present Itinment' was
very different, to what it was in the time of
liam 111., and therefore required at least some dif-
ference in the regulations to be applied to that part
of the Community. He did not wish to- aboliSh '
the Badge altogether, but only to give a power to
Magistrates to direct when it should be affixed and -
when not. Nor did he wish to relieve OterSeers
from 'the' consequences of any real neglect of duty.
He thought the objections made to the Bill might -
be very easily obviated in the Committee. '•
Mr. BERKELEY said, he did not rise to mp-
posethe Bill, but to observe, that many alterations
had of late been made in the Poor Laws, the ob.
je& of which was merely to apply certain local re_
mecliies in particular cases. Why not appoint: a
Committee. to examine the whole system, to revise.
'Aild,4:4lte Etch alterations as the altered eircurn:.
itances of the times might render necessary He
also thought it necessary to obiere,,:tLat In his .
neighbourhood there was a great deal of arrogance
amongst, the Poor, and great indolence on the part
of the Overseers, and that it was very difficult to
get the latter to do their duty.
Mr. NEWBOLT explained.
Mr. 111 ARTIN (of reWkesbury) wished those
Badges, which were now ;he subject of di cession
-before the House? were placed upon those who by
extravagance and misinaliagernent had bronglit dis-
‘,
,tress upon the Country. ,
Lord TEMPLE said, there seemed so much dif-
ference of opinion relative to the Bill, that he
thought it had- better be printed and delayed for a
•,short time. As, however, Prosecutions had been
commenced under the Ad of William 111, againsit
certain Overseers, he had no objection to a Bill
.for suspending the proceedings in those Prosecu.
tions, in order that the House might have suffi:
cient time to consider the present till.
Mr. SHAW LEFEPRE thought the Bill had
better go, through the Committee and then be print,
ed, as amended, for the consideration o£ the House.
Mr. W. DUND A S said, the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. NEWAOLT) has no oblation to that mode
of proceeding. ,
Mr. SHERIDAN said, the object of the Bill
did not come within his knowledge at the time it
was presented to the House, but he was sensible it
was brought forward with the best intentions. He
could not help taking notice of an expressiOn made
use of, by an Hon. Gentleman -(Mr. BERriELEY)
that the Poor were arrogant. Had not the poorer
classes of society been thanked in His 'Majesty's
Speech for the exemplary manner in which they had
borne their hard. fate ? ..Was it not well known
they had been unable even io get bread, and
weft!: they now4o'be stigni‘rized- as arrogant ? He
thought the Badges ought to be wholly done away,
unless every person was enabled to obtain a decent
and, proper livelihood by his industry, and then let
those be branded who refused to be industrious.. Or,
' as some Gentlemen had lately given Premiums upqn
Industry and good Conduct, let an honourable Badge
be given to those deserving it,, as the reward of in.
dustrious and meritorious exertion.
Mr. BERKELEY and Mr. SHE,RIDAN seve-
rally explained. • .
Mr. JOLLIFFE had no oblation to suspend, the
-Proceedings against Overseers , for offence, against
the Ad of William 111. relative. to Badges.,
The CHANCELLOR- of the- EXCHEQUER
said, he -was astonished-that any Hon. Gentleman
should oppose' the plesent Bill.. He -was more
astonished that any Hon. Gentleman ' should wish
"'for delay. The question was, whether persons in
distress should be relieved by those whose duty it
was to administer that relief, or whether that re-
lief should be refused to them, unless they were
stigmatized by a Badge of turpitude. If it was
considered what the condnd of the Poor had been,
surely it would never be said, that -they ought not
to be relieved unless they wore Badgei of disgrace:
He was sorry to see the Bill opposed in the way in,
which it had been ; he thought it ought to pass with
as much speed as the forms of the House would al.
low; or, rather, that the forms of the House should
receiye a quickening impulse upon such an occasion.
The At of William 111. was certainly not made for
times like the present.

Sir W. ELFORD, Lord TEMPLE, and the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER" Severally
explained.

Mr. WILBERFORCE spoke in favour of the
Bill. Many persons of respectability and charatter
had, he said, been forced from the pressure of the
times, to apply for Parochial Relief, and it would be
extremely odious and unjust, that such persons
should be branded by a Badge of Disgrace.
Mr. NEWBOLT explained.
The Bill WIIS read a second time, and committed
for Friday.

EAST INDIA COMPtNY PRIVATE TRADE.
Sir W. PULTENEY said, he had thought it his
duty to move for certain Papers, last Session, rela,
tive to the Trade between India and Europe,, and
more particularly
,relative to the Private Trade.
Those Papers were now before the - House, and
he thought it would be most advisable to appoint
a Committee to examine them, and tO'cOnsider and
investigate the subject to which they rehired. In
the year 1793, when the East
*lndia Company.ap.
plied for a renewal of their Charter, many regu-
lations were made in the Act of Parliament which
constituted that Charter, for the ptirpose of giving
.to private trade' betWeeni India and 'Flu topei
but those reiplations. had been
,rendpred. alinost
~miga.tory 'by' the, restriaionS thrown' w tbeir ay
b the Court, of Dire4ors; Whichliad been -after.
wards c6i)firdied" bi.the"Court of .Ir.4rielt`O'is.
••• • t.
bad hoped ilia t, • Lorne -Cornprotpik' tiltolad%c mad
;bat: weL4 hav:e -.sc,;:J4ea the itiieifeicbce "Of lh

‘l.

11

"1 Itt)i .‘

House unnecessary, but as no compromise. had taken
place to the satisfaaiou of all the .pgtiee svhosee-''t
interests were concerned, he. found, hirnselfreome,;
pealed to bring: ferward: the; eMotion.—es
The 'first Eqtablishinent ofdrflEmt Itetlfea CoMpatiee
arose out of exclusive -.Privileges, of, evading, tol,
India, granted by the - Crown,. ferei tlta :.puFposd
e
of raising money.: A large: cepit4,leeepg„, rc.l
quired to derive the greatest
.1-icesifele elciYalk4gFe
•from the Trade. to 'lndia, aceartempr veas_ tnicfe
'shortly afterwards to. eseablisheenother Cot:twiny-et
This produced .much. discessioknoei e9nsideralec dee
'bate, which aelenpli ended itieheeeopsolidatien
both CompanieseWhich became onieedlin,to one. 1.48
individual was. then allowed to, infefeeF evitd.tbe,
monopoly. of the -Company by. tniairir fp; I raiktp;ric,
. his own account: It Was to, be ceensidere,_ how-
ever, that' o individual.at thet,tiene.weeposeesstal,
of sufficient capital, to enableehim ..to carry
.on a
trade to India with his own.rneansee.The East 1n..;
dia Company afterwards -ecquired .became tin;
Sovereigns of a large portion of et.t:r!ory;, it was,
perfealy -well. known, that ',;).eereigns could no..
exercise trade with any advantage: Azn.'epplicae
don was made to Parliament.for Rifle• the objet.
of Which was, to take the of ifs of ledia entirely'
out of the hands of the East India Company, and,
bnilaeing them. entirely under.: the control of .the
Crown, create a sort ofimperium in iverio, which
would have been highly dangerous to the Consti:
tution. e This Bill was, however, fortunately re,
jeaed, and a new measure adopted, that ,of placing
the Affairs of India, under theenanegement of Corn.
missioners conseituting a Board of Controls, w'ho
were to check and control the, East India Company
in their government of:their Territories in India.
The control of this Board extended so. far, that
no dispatch could, inestrianess, be sent from.the
Company to India having. any relation to the terri..
tonal possessions_ of that Company, without the
consent of that Board. • With respect to the:Trade
of the Companye. the Board-had no control„ unlesa
so far as it affeaed the, Territorial ,Soeereignty. of
the former. • Thus the:Ad:des .of the Compaey pro;
ceeded until the year:l79'e, when they applied foi
a'renewal of their. Charter. It wai well' -knowo
that great fortunes were made in India by many
British suhje&s, these they had no means of remit,
ting to Great Britain without: having recourse ep
Foreigners, into whose hands, by this means,
ea
great additional trade was thrown. • When the East
India Company made application, in the year 1793,
for a renewal of their Charter, it appeared that they
had a great jealousy of all private:trade svhatev'er
in the hands of British subje&s, andAhey had since
ft-eown• every possible obstacle; 'in its way. •Ymt
they 'could-not alledge that the .pecetiOen &rapes
ed to individuals .;to- bring honet_eu- remit their
property had ever been abused. .All ille,Governors
of India had, he believed, declared themselves
favourable to this species of Private 'reade, and had
written hornet° request that greater facilities might
be given to private individuals, to enable them to
remit their property to England., In the year. e 79,3
the Marquis WELLESLEY. had Wrieterntoethe Cowl
of Direaors, that he had been midge_ the peeessiely
of granting permission to certain individualseto.sepd
their property to England in India built Ships. No
disadvantage had arisen from this,. yet the•coert gf
Diteaors had, in- the year .179N:sent .out express
orders,. thateit should not he done agein,: without
pointing out any disadvantage whatever, that
ac-
crued from the measure. The Marquis WE,LL E e y
-could not therefore, grant permission is teoo,ehut
fnund himself again compelled in , 'Soo tograie
permission for the same purpose. The Courteef
Direaors had stated, their objeaioria: to this. mea-
sure in strong terms,, and it was evident they wseee
determined to cripple: and. hamper
.this ;Trade,eits
every possible way. It was in consequenceeof
these circumstances that he wished to bring elie
subject before Parliament. The Trade of the Eeet
India Company consisted of two beancheeteelje
China Trade, in which they aled as Merchaors,
and the .India Trade, which,, s Sovereigns, !hay
had always earried• on to great disadvantage. , 137,y-
-the term India Trade he included the whole of the
Possessions of the East India Company, iecludiog
Bengal, Bombay, &c. It was well known that flee
shipping employed by the Company was insefficieat
to bring home the produce of those Countries.--
Out of the whole amount imported into this Coun-
try, it was computed that produce eu the emperit of
4,300,0001. was re-exported, of..whiche,aoo,teocaj.
was in the hands of Foceigners. Taking, how-
ever, the amount of the Trade in. the hands of
Foreigner§ at 1,5.00,0001. it was a matter of- the
highest importance, • because no one coold tell to
what extent the. Trade from India might, be carried
on for the benefit of this Country, to the erstite ex.
elusion of Foreigners, if proper facilities
.wcee given
for that purpose. A free Trade; without
ration, was not asked. of the Court of Direaoyee and
yet-they seemed to make a refusal of that a pretence
for not granting facilities in any way to BritishjSub;
jeas, whilst they had no objeaicn to Forerigegr.d4c•
ing a part of that Trade, which ought to protietete.t.the
interests of Britain and add to British Capitel.
narrow system of policy adopted by the Cogyita y
in this case, had throWn :so large a portioleaef: the
Indian Trade into the hands of Foreigners;.ethat a e
the Port ofL'Orient alone, in ',the year tes3,.ltiiiien
goods weir imported thither to the .amoitet :of
2 Poo 0001. ' Since the commencement 4. the War
that Trade must of course have -versemeterially de.
creased, but there was.no doubt the indian Trade,ein
.the hands of‘Foreigners; wai still very great. `thy
'should not this Trade beehrown-into the haoSe.of
British St bjeas ?• He was .surprised there should
• IleeLit;eyi doubts upon.' the• subjal, ; but,_Thirty
4.lDifeEtbrs had' been unanimousetgztinst. eon§enting
*-tize:this.P&ate Tredee avd.. their it eiolutiteie
:re. e • r •se • •

in 20,/..21i:j6 :.;.:

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S

G

tt- a • •- •
trif.l", (1114, ,i)p the Coart of *Proprietors, on
a S:i1161:=-7-Itit-Reseution had been passed in op..
all 'the Governors of India, who had
uniformly and successively expressed their confident
and decided opinions in favour of granting the ne.
cessary facilities to the Private 'trade from India
to this Coantrartahee believed no- instance could be
stated. Ofra Govermt •,:of „India differing from . this
serttiteent,,Yit.,Dlnin .also
,had_ given his opi-
nibn ion the sarce-Sid-i; These- w ere
good . authorities, ;betcruse they had thebest:oppor-
tUnities of- being 'well acquainted. with the sub.:
jet. Yet in' defr4k6 'of all this, the East India
Company-had :resisted every proposition for giving
greater facilities to Private Trade.. Where- wag
the reason of this conduct to be found ; must it not •
be looked for in that spirit.of monopoly, by which
they were invariably aatiaied ? The qualificatioteof
a Proprietor to vote had been increased from fool. to
r fool. ; andthe eleaion of the' Diredors.from being
wholly annual had been made rotatory, six of the Di.
reaors going out by rotation every year. The real
fact was, he said, that the thirty Directors were
self-elected ; they dilated to the Proprietors every
year those six persons, whom they:chose. should be
elected into the Direaion, and those six wereinvaria
ably elected. Thus an Aristocracy was created, and it
Was well-known an Aristocracy was, of all Govern-
Ments the most tyrannical, even worse than a Demo-
cracy, if any thing could be worse... They had the
whole pattemage.of India in their hands, and might it
hi:it be fairly supposed, that, with.the exercise of that
patronage; they acquiaed a great.influence in the
Court of Proprietors The real reason- why the
Court' of Direaors had refused to grantfacilities to
pri7aie Trade, was, -lie said, because they. -wished
to'upholdtheir-own exclusive privileges and power.
SOrne Ostensible reasons must, however, be assigned,
and`` thes.d-tin'd appeared before the. Public. Upon
186 king at' their Statement, however, it was evident
they were. labouring to make the Worse appear
the better reason, and . that the real basis of
their afguinents," was. the danger apprehended to
their -oWn. power. In the first place they star-
eda that, the Capital of the Company was about
to be iticreased 2,000,0001. but was this any
reason- why `facilities shotild not be granted to
'Private Trade ; or was it to be pretended that.this
sum would'be sufficiant to answer the purposes for
Which those facilities were 'asked I In' the second
instance it was urged, that Capital would be taken
fabm other branclieseand the Trade of the Country
injured; this surely did not require an answer—
there was Capital amply sufficient for this as well
as- for other purposes. In the next place, much
was said of-the dangers of Colonization. . Accord-
ing -to the present system, no one.could go to India
Without ,permission -of • the-Court of Directors ; if
le did, he wag immediately sent back ; nor could
'any one hold . •lands in that Country. But
was it not well known that the -climate of
India was so injurious to-the health offeepersons
going thither from -this Country,- that they were
compelled to return, if possible, after residing there
a certain time. Where, then, was the danger of
COloniaation The Public were lastly- told. of ./41e
danger that would arise from bringing over to this
Country a great nutnber of Lascars. Whatever
dangers -however, that could -result from , this
might -be easily obviated by a 'provision, that all
Vessels coming from India should:be navigated by
-British Sailors, unless in time of War, when Las-
cars would be a substitute, and even an advantage
• in that respect, which was afforded by no other part
of the Colohial Dominions of 'Britain-. Vessels
might be built-in India with the greatest possible
advantage, where wood was to be found -at a low
price, and of a most.excelleat quality, which would
be highly advantageous .to the Ship-builders here,'
it- being understood, that at- the' present moment,
repairing of Vessels was: much more profitable than
building them. A -Peace being-- noW conc.luaed
with France, it must, be obvious, .that if measures
were not now taken to place the Private' Trade
in the hands of British Sabjeds, the whole must
-be- thrown into the hands of' France, from the
-additional facility she would then possess of carry.
ing- it an. He- would not, he said, trouble the
'House further upon the subject, which he consider.
ed-as most important to this Country, and therefore
he wished for a Committee to sift the business to
the bottom. He .was convinced that if the Private
Trade was thrown into the hands of Foreigners the
Trade of Leadenhall-street must very materially suf.
fer. The question embraced so many great and im-
portant objets, that he thought be should , not
have done his duty as a Member of Parliament, if
he had not brought the subject before the House,
arid therefore he now submitted it for their conside-
ration. He concluded by moving, " That a Com-
mittee be appointed to take into consideration the
Papers laid before the House in the last Session of
Parliament, relative to the proceedings of the East_
India Company, with respect to the Trade between
India and Europe, referred to in the said Papers."
Mr. Joraes seconded the Motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that neither the worthy Baronet, nor any
other Member in that House, could attach more
importance to the subject now. under consideration,
than himself. He was thoroughly satisfied that it
involved, not only great commercial, but also great
political consequences ; and, in stating his sense of
the importance of the subject, he hoped it was not
necessary for him to say he gave full credit to the
worthy Baronet for being aa-tuated, solely, by a
sense of its deep importance. 'He was aware also,
that when an opinion was given, as the worthy Ba-
ronet had delivered his, with such good sense and
temper, it could not fail to give a great effett to the
arguments by which it was enforced. " That lion.
- Member had entered at large into tire aubjea noar
before the House, and had given 'a very accurate
statement of the rise and progress of the East-India
Company, in which it was not necessary for him to
follow, nor was it necessary for him to apply, any
observations to 'what had been said to.night; except
'what was founded on the case' immediately, before
the House, which was with reference to the great
question respeaing the(Ptivate-Trade of India. pp
should therefore begin with the Praeeediogi-P€..lAln-
a •liament in the -year: 1.793,, when, tiwi,c.giilaSurg
thought proper to renew the Charter of the Baste.
India Company. The worthy Baronet had stated,
that previous to that time great obstrudions were

1r
4

thrown irl.the way of,thateTtade by the t ast-Todit
Company 1)144 lie Wionid. pleaseif' to recut:le:l;
that previous to' tha4 time the Private,Trade4ith'
India, by the SubjedS of this Conntry; was illicit
it was held to be inlet-ions to, the interests of this.
Country, and could not be carried on cogsistentlY;
with,the..Chatter .of etteEasteindia Company. It
was in the year 1793 that thiS Trade was recog-
nized, and then it wastunder certain liditatiOns, as
the',l4644se well knew._ It was.then stipulated that
the I,,ast-India.Company should furnish for the Pri-
vate 'trade -a :.certain ntiniber of tons of shipping.,
Happily, it .was found, inadequate to the deMand of
the Private Tr de ;
.but those who framed the Bill
wisely anticipated that such deficiency might be felt,
and therefore lodged with the Commissioners.for the
,Affairs of:lndia a power to add :to that number, if
inecessary.. The framers of that. Bill, by almost all
its Provisions; indicated a knowledge of the sUbjea
of which they treated, in the highest degree, and
they employed:their diligence in a manner as corn.
mendable as their sagacity was great, as appeared
in all the Provisions they made upon that important
subje'a. But in resped to the Private Trade, 'he
was perfealy ready to acknowledge, that, wise as
the' Provisions were,_ they had not been completely:
effedual. He did, not contend, that on:the part of
the Directory of the East-India Company, there
had been that facility in the conduftof,that I raLie
which was intended, and'even expeded' by Parlia-•
inert ;..at the same time, it must be 'matter of sa.:
05f:talon to the Hon. Member, as it was to the'
House, to consider that if he 'was right in-his sup'
position, that the "'rade did not receive the
ties which were expeded from the. Diredory; and
that, the Trade, did nevertheleSs greatly increase in
1794, and had been gradually increasing since, it
would increase still mort..when those facilities were
afforded it. In the years when the' shipping had
been 'most abtindant froth India, the Private Trade
had been the largest. He could assure the . House
that on thiS subject he had no biass •or prejudice.
He wished the House` to judge, from the'statemcnt
Which he should` lay before it - not as opposed to,
but as supplementary, but yet for the purpose of
affOrding ground, as he trusted, of an opposite con-
chision from that which was deduced by the worthy
Baronet. He should then ask a fair unbiassed opi-
nion of the House; and he Was sure that he did not
indulge that expectation in vain. The Worthy Ba
ronet had Said, that theopinions.of the Governors of
India werefavourable to that which he had fortned,
and had submitted to the House. He was aware
that the opinion atilt Marquis of WE etse EY was
favourable to that of the Hon'. Baronee.—His Noble
Friend the Marquis had. certainly found the means
of conveying the private Trade of India to this
Country—ln consequence of an order from the
Diredory that was not renewed in 1799 ; hut in
t Soo it was renewed ; and now he had it in his
power to state at this early period of the discussion,
that the Directory had determined to affirm the Sys-
tem of the Marquis of V,TELLESLEY, for employing
Shipping to support the private Trade from India to
this Country. The Noble Marquis he had allud-
ed to, had proposed that all the Shipping which
should be bound to return home, and now employed
V. the Expedition to the Red Sea, shall he employed
for the purpose of conveying the Private Trade from
India to Great Britain in the year 1803. The
Court of Directors had agreed to confirm that re_
commendation of the Noble Marquis; and also in
1802, they were ready to authorize their Governor
to supply any deficiency in Shipping in that year.
The House would therefore perceive, that no incon-
venience could acme, because no loss would arise, nor
-any dangei threaten the Private Trade of India until
theyear So+; admitting however, as he did, that
provision shouldbe made for the convenience of that
Trade in that year. He mentioned this, not only to
spew the disposition of the DireEtory to meet the
wishes of those who think,-that measures should be
taken for encouraging the Private Trade of India, but
also to ground a Motion with which he should con-
clude his Address to , the Chair, after submitting
what, he hoped, would appear to the House suffi-
cient reason for adopting it, which Motion should
be for. the Previous Question. In the first place,
he .presumed, no man would deny, that it became
the House to pause, at least, before it came to an
absolute.;determination on such d subject as this—
No injury could arise in the interiir if the House
should, not go into such an Inquiry as this—Nor
would the House institute such an Inquiry unless
they were convinced, there were abuses which: cal,:
led for immediate, and, as it were, instant remedy.
The worthy P. aronet had laid great stress on the
opinion of a person whose authority, on the Affairs
of India in particular, must have considetahle weight
in that. House. He meant the Right Hon.. Gentl-
eman who had been at \the head of the Board 'of Con.;
trol, [Mr.' DUN DAs].--The worthy Baronet .had
said, the opinion of that Right Hon. Gentleman. was
entirely with him., It was but this morning, Mr:
ADDINGTON said, that he perused that opinion e
the substance of which was; that the two parties
who opposed each other upon that subje&, had gone
to the extreme on opposite opinions ; and he had
advised a middle course, and which he trusted and
expefted the House would see to he the most advis-
able upon that, occasion : but he believed that Right
Honourable Gentleman never went the full length of
the opinion of the worthy Baronet. Ile said that
opinions on that occasion were carried to extremes
on both sides, and that, according to his senti-
ments upon the matter, the truth lay between them.
The worthy Baronet had likewise laid considerable
stress On the Constitution of the Company, and had
said some things on the •eleaiOn of the three.
tors-L-topies which, with the 'permission of the
dlouse, he would abstain from making any observa-
tions upon. As to what, the worthy Baronet had
said on the amount of the trade in 1793 at L'Orient,
being, as he stated, between orie and two millions,
--this, by the way, Mr. ADDINGTON said, he
should have stated in a formei.part of his Address to
the,thair, Where he,took notice, that until 1793 the
Private Trade -to India by' the Subjects of this
. Country was nosy observe again,
that. 00)70 thisirradould not be carried' on
t. by ghee objects of thiri'ourfu'y without a violatioo
.of the Miter:lor ite •East India Company. The
'Trli& "then was 81' ijied 'on byForeigners' only, and
that was the reason that the Trade was so large in
I the Port mentioned by the Hon. Member. The

. •
Ilit;rgt6t question.,_ s Ike apptehenacil it now, was
this---Whether or .not: the East India Company'

have hitherto given thedfacility to the carrying on
of this "Trade as exped and required by Parlia-
ment ? Ile had atiFilty "stated, in part, hisspinion

upon that point, which was, that they had not.—
The nc\t question was-'---Whether or not, according
to the statenient-Whieli—lre was prepared to make,
and which he should• make, there Is any just expea.
ettion that this facility will be given in future ?
The nature of this Trade could not huty
be very'
well understOod by the House. It was carried on,
not by a Capital from this Country, but by a Capital
cleated by the surplus of the annual profits o the Civil
and Military Servants of this Country,, a d it was
advisable that *the Trade of such a Capital should
he enjoyed- by `those \silo were to- return into this
Country, this Canital was either vested in the
Company's Treasury; for 7 which Bills of a long date
'were given, or in the purchase of certain articles
sent home, 7which constituted- what was called the
Private Trade,• to-which this debate referred. The
:amount of this surplus had been .considerably in-
creasing, and the anineitt of= the application of
:others; on behalf of'Britisi Merchants, had also
ere-aged' Very, 'Considefably of late: • The articles
purchased by the surplus lie thus alluded to, applied
to the whole of the produce of India' Manufaaure,
which persons, licerised by the East India Company,
hut no-others, were empowered to purchase.. All
the surplus of:the fine goods, and the whole of the
coarse goods, as toffee, Indigo, Sugar, were within
the range of purchase. of those who had license from,.
the Company, *after their Own ships were loaded,
and such were the Subjeas of the Private Trade.
—Goods of the finer texture; and -Salt Petre,
they kept to their own Trade.. In all the rest,
subject to this condition, the Private. Trader
was allowed to deal eso that the '.worthy
Baronet was under -a mistake, if he thought that
advantages were giVen,, to Foreigners which were
denied to British SUbjeas in this respea. The
Agents employed by the British Traders licensed by
theCoMpanY,.could purchase every 'article.-of goods
that a Foreigner cpuld'ourchese. He knesseof
dif-
ferent e between -a Foreigner and those Agents, ex-
cept this,, that the Foreigner was not obliged to be
licensed, but the Agent was obliged to be licensed.
Foreigners .had no powers to purchase any, attiele
whsk!'h these. British Agents could not pUrchase. If
they Were, he-was not aware what these :articles
%tierce He did not see, therefore, that any rearad-
vantage was given to a Foreigner which.was not
given also to the British Subject, on the Private
Trade of India, The Hon. Member stated, and he
stated truly, that it was an. objea of immense con -
seqnence to pti.vide means for procuring a sufficient
supply for the commercial and the Royal Navy of
this Country; -and that Hon. Member conceived,
that this could only be
.clone by the adoption of the
ideas which had been expressed by those who fa-
voured the opinion entertained by him. Fre could
only state,
,but,he did it: with
,infinite satisfaction,
that the East India Company .had assured-Ministers,
that with respect to the Royal Navy,, they wished
to give _every facility that was possible, and, even
assistance to ,supporY that national objeet, by build-
ing Ships in India, and by every mode that can fur-
ther that great objea, in the way that the best
friends of this Country 'Could desire ; by increasing
ship-building there and dirrrinishiog it'berq as much
as possible, according -as the price of timber, might
enable theme to do so so that they, were to be go-
verned by 'the price of timber, which, had risen in
this Country certainly to an enormous price., 'They
had bound themselves, to freight. Ships from India
.for this purpose as much as could be done upon these
principles. It was•upon this part of the suhjea
.that opinions appeared to hitn to have , been car-
.ried to extremes His Noble Friend; the Mar.'
Buis of WELLESLEY, and the ,worthy Baronet,
were of opinion, that India -built Ships ' were
alone to be employed for this purpose, and- the
Direaory said that- British-built ships were to be
exclusively employed, for this purpose.s—The Report
alluded to, and so often commented upon, by the
Worthy Baronet Stated, that the India Shipping can-
not be resorted to without disadvantage, and by
that Report it was held forth as if India built Ships
ought to be wholly excluded--He had however, the
pleasure to obserVe; that the Direaory, after look-
ing at,this subjeet, and considering it attentively,,
had agreed 'to bind themselves to' provide for the
purposes of- the Private Trade Ships built either in
India or, this Country, according to the terms which
'should be found roost 'advantageous, and that the
preference shall he given to India or British, accord-
ing to the price. There was , one circumstance
cloAely connected with the consideration of this
queAtinn, to which the Hon. Member had alluded,
butnot in the way he should have supposed ; when he
was describing the d ifference be tween Peace and War,
he did not- state, as it appeared to him necessary to
'state, the difference which must arise now from what
we had felt fUr the hist nine 'years on account of
Freight,- for that was Much -greater-in War - than
Peace.. The Hon. Member had made no reference;
to this great difference!which must !materially afßef
this Private Trade of India, as well as every othei
Trade ; and this among others, '.was a ,strong reae
son for not hastily adoptiog the Motion In* before,
the House._ lie wished the House to try the expe-
riment, of what effect Peace may produce under the
undertaking of the Direaors, suchaS he had'stated
it, for there would be an interval of three years,
with means the most ample to supply our wants,
and even to gratify our wishes, as well as to afford
an opportunity of seeing, :what will be the effea of
the arrangement of the Marquis of WErsoEstet-V,
which the Direaory were ready to 'agree .to.:• He
-should he extremely sorry to appear insensible
to the importance of the Private Trade of India
—He certainly was not so : It was unquestion_
ably a great source of encouragement to our Ma-
nufaaures here, as well as a great inducement
to the Inhabitants of India to exert theMselves in
their manufactures in the articles in that part of the
world which are the objects of taste and demand
here. He was fully aware, likewise, that this was
a Trade carried on with great advantage, eand the
least risks; did' not require a large Capital, and that
it had advantages which made it peCuliarlyllesim.
ble that it should be- kept- in- the- hands of our
Traders and Merchants. He felt, likewise, it was
favourable to an idea that had been thrown out by

~~ ~

.....~_, _z_._....

an Hon. Friend of his, and to borrow his language' h
" it would make London the Emporium of the IT 1%
dian Trade." He was convinced, that by the facilt-
ties which the East India Company were. to affor3 it
to it, London would become almost exclusively the i,
mart of our Indian Commerce. He was unwilliogi h
he said, to enter minutely into the comments of the
worthy Baronet, on the Report of Mr. GRANT on' li
this subjed. Some of these comments were perfeall a
proper. That part of the Report which related tO c
the Lascars, was open -to the observations and coin'
ments which had been made upon it. -That theYh p
Shothld come in aid of us at certain times, Llod ii
certain circumstances, was -not to be denied ; but it
was hardly necessary to
.say, that where British t
Seamen oan be found, none other should be emplOY' v
ed ; neither Lascars nor any Seamen of any CounCountry`l
should-be employed otherwise than. as supplemental z
to British • Seamen ; •for• while they could he ha' l
acne other should be employed, was a clear poiort r
and such* as 'could not be disputed. Indeed,: )
he thought the Report. of Mr.
,G,RAxT upon thig j
:matter: to be the most extraordinary he eve;
read- of,--and .perfealy -indefensible. With regard ;
to Colonization he - cottld '-hot say the same thing, 1
for he thought tlhithni-Scliief might arise from Oil
'if it took place.; he did not say that we should
.!
e
suffer from it . what another Country had ,suffered;
but upon. the best view he had been enabled to take
of this matter, he was fully convinced. that, co; ,
co,uragement should be given to those who applied
their capital and talents in India to return,htrtet
and finally to make their' establishments here, -ai''
not that they should haVe any inducement to fool' I
hereditary establishments in India—Upon this sik,
.v.zi ATheiica; thoughThot parallel'in circumstance+
Tight yet afford vs an useful lesson. It did no':
appear to him that the worthy Baronet had laid ad,
ground; that could be deemed sufficient, to call 05.,
a Parliamentary interference upon this subjeet, anu-
therefore he could not assent to the Motion 00
before the House--If the worthy Baronet had 1440;
ground for Parliamentary interference, .he cot
assure that Hon. Member there was nothing in ii"
mind that could prevent him from giving the gl'i
tion his cordial support.—Till, this disposition hag
manifested itself on'the -part of the East Inals4,
Company, he felt a "strong biass in favour of a AY.
tion like the present, to induce the House to interferi
in this snbjeCt, with a view to compel, he would n 4
Say, but to induce the East India Company to elte''
cute, in its true spirit, the Aa of 1793, relative to. ,
the Private Trade of India ; he thought the %%71°
Matter hinged there:—lf the East India ComP3.nfro;:
from any, cause, however weighty in the tili
of the U.reCiors, for instance, a sense of dut)'
should have determined to, withhold those furl, 1
lities to the Private Trade' of India, he thought ne'
cessary for its encouragement, which it was the ja;
tention of Parliament to cherish, and indeed expeOe'
to becarried into effeCt ; he sl'sculd have voted for
this Motion, but seeing it was their disposition 0"
lend all the aid in their power, and tearing the el't
feet of a change, the extent of which he could o°
foresee, leading possibly to arrangements which nol
body could control : and being aware that' no in!o
chief could arise froth delaying, at least, sticii. ,
proposition as ttlat_ which was-stated by the Wrn'tlli
Baronet., he had determined on the course he 0
nOw pursuing. He did not like to resist the 1‘46,1
lion by a..direa, negative, but he, thought it .0,
duty ita move upon it the Previous Ouestion.
. i1ir,391/NSTON:E said, is was, impossible for arli
Gentleman .who felt the importance of this questil
not to feel also considerable satisfaCtion at what bj
Hien
,frorn the "Right 1i0r.., the CHANCELLOR ,
.the, ExcHEQUEIt., He had admitted.the importaduel
of the Trade, and lie had been pleased to' say, the,
arrangements had been made upon the Plan of .0i
quis 'WELLESLEY, that they were to- be adopter,
and that they were to be continued for three ye3r4
Now, without venturing to speak for his rciatt,
' (Sir W. Pt; LTENEY) he believed, that if this disr'ot
tion had been known, which the House was a;suredo,
by the Rt. Hon. Gentleman, this Motion would !,t
have been brought forward ; for all that was dear
I>a
was, that the Plan- of the Noble Marquis shouo 0,
tried. It was-, certainly, a thing that was absa
lutely called for. If, for three years, any plat' 'a
tried that was preferable to this,.-or any planed
that it might be seen which was best, all til
ia
concerned in thii business would be compleatly t
tisfied. Nothing was asked, or desired, but to fj°o
this plan of the ,Noble Marquis to the test; :
was there any such disposition manifested on the i
of the East India Company, until it was annoo ;I.
to night by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIIS/f
O,
Certainly none, and therefore it was necessary'
this subjea should have been brought on and diseo',
ed in -the House._ He saspeded, however, that in
particular the Right Hon: Gentleman was nor' 'b
•
roughly aware of the nature of the concessioo'lp
was understood. to be made. It was statea, 'e,
permission should be granted to the Ships that "'lll
gone to Egypt with the •Arh,v,, to come home
ing: the-season. of a soz and 1803, and that tb
Ships-will-be sufficient to bring home all the'g°o
that will be ready to be shipped in India for dl
Private
.1 rade. , He doubted this, for lie thhoiid
thas the whole extent of the tonnage of the 51)
sent to the Red Sea was 40,000----one.half of o'i't
were returned immediately -to India, and of the )
inaining half, a great many would put bachhd
others would be discharged from the service, w)
were either returned; or were about to return, I
therefore would come hothe in the season of i So'
e, and the Jemaining Ships would not be founds,
dent tO bring home froth India the quantity of g':
desired: Ho aiever, as this permission was to coilr!e
for three years,.if these Ships should not be suffioo
such a quantity of tonnage vv'ouid be allowed to '4
home• as should be requisite for the Trade ascot o,
to the plan of Marquis WELLESLEY. If this,,o
not the idea olthe Right Hon. Gentlemia, he si
be glad ,to be ihformed in that particulatl
wished to know w:l,2iher it was the intentioil)ca;
was found that Ships gone -to the Red Sea a' i 5
sufficient to bring hOme- the -goods of individd'ia
Indiauph as they' desired to send, they weice
o
mitred to send them home' in other Ships ?
Mr.AIMING-roN -.Said,' ' lie understo°'o.
Hon. Qentletnan was desirous of receiNing ariisjgr
-now to this question, and -therefore he shoulice
it.—He stated that for i Soa provision ,Vs 3
made by the_ Marquis of WELLESLEY) 3°-

more

`!at Mr.
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l'ktMr. Du
er, an o

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,7,"led, in
the Ex c
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Trade of ]
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Statement
dtatement
,I• e
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in:1111
l'onsiderab
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