The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

Your back, to put down your foe,"—recollect that be will
not quit the armour till he has " the sword of the Lord and
of Gic i
eonn
his hand."(Latighter.) There is another
ttiagraph in their petition, which for common decency should
t",e been omitted. They protest against being compelled
t° support schools in which it is proposed to use versions
'i the Scriptures notoriously corrupt and false. They
t; °
bad Biblical seholars.—( Laughter.) I'll quote a high
o
Itliority against them—the authority of a dignitary of the
Scoof Which
Church—far more opposed to mine than is your's,
o
w,binh, pardon me, I cannot help saying-, " Reformed
the I least because the least reformed."— ( Hear, hear, and
:°ghter., ) Dr. Chalmers, on the 20th of May, 1830,
'id' when giving evidence before Parliament, " As to the
l'4l • a • a
them or.fse verston and the Douay, the difference between
Is not so great as to make it a thing of practical im-
tortaee which of them is used."—(Loud cries of “ Hear,
Perfumed
So here I give you the Methodist declaration,
with your eulogiums—( A laugh)—and the ac-
toiftPlished theologian against it.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
'tbis were the proper place, I could prove to you
that there arc important errors—admitted errors—and yet
rs uncorrected; in your authorised version.—(Hear,
hear.). Let me state, that the Catholic Bishops have dis-
ikluted 309,000 copies of the Scriptures in Ireland
remember when the cry was " Read the Bible I read
'''°l' own version I"—(Loud cries of " Hear' hear.") The
catholic Bishops feel the time is gone by for denying to
o,eePeople the right to read the B ble for themselves. I
give you the history of one version. In 1593, by Pope
dement one was published at Rome, and it was translated
v
,„` Rheims—whether4s—whether the Douay College had, on the ap-
naeh of the British army, withdrawn—and the version is
.caching
the Rhenish; HOW to that version were appended notes,
persecution. An edition was published at Liverpool
'llBos, and I was the first to discover and to denounce these
eves;and the evidence of Dr. Doyle is that in all
1 elequent editions the ,notes objected to were expunged.
egare heard the Hon. Member for Kent (Mr. Plurnptre)
;43' that the Scriptures are " solely sufficient, and all.suf-
tt"ient" Will the Hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Glad-
ti'ine) admit that ?—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Will he
°w no aid from the Church—no authority to tradition?
`(Laughter.)_ I wish, Sir, to treat the subject, in this, I
tiust, calm and conciliatory spirit.—( Cheers from the
then
generally.) lam arrived at that period of life
t °en the reckoning cannot be far eietant. All that I con-
tend for is, that you should allow some portion of the Go-
vernment grant for the education of the C .tholics.—( Hear,
bear.) In Liverpool they are 92,380—they are one-third
to the populatioc—the poorest portion.—( Hear.) Are they
The
no part of the Parliamentary educational grant?
chemistry
miserable Leer they drink is filtered by the Exchequer
uemistry into gold—shall nut they share in your bounty ?
7s 000.
hear, hear ) In Manchester they amount to
sOOO. In Great Britain, they number 1,500,000. The
Dissenters annually give 111,000 L to missionary enter-
r
~,„61es; the Church only 40,0001. Shall not the Catholics
e the Dissenters have their share of education ? Oh, let
o"
6' quarrel about something else.—(Cheers.) Let us
igilit our party battles upon another ground.—(Renewed
cheers.) ain't come forward with a side-wind insinuation,
that Lord Lansdowne and the other Protestant Privy
'4uncillors are not fit to distribute the Parliamentary
grant._( Cheers.) Not responsible, forsooth ! Why,
.rho so responsible as the Ministry ? (Cheers.) 'Would
d.° Clergymen of the Established Church, if they had the
Istribution of the fund, allow the Catholics to have any
part of it? O'a, no I they disown them ! Oxford shudders
`1 them tee( Hear, and laughter.) Even the Puseyites,
°sely as they approach the more ancient Catholics, scorn us.
Men might disguise their votes. There was not much
aalgaise about the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite gene-
t' He He generally went to the mark straight ; why not
so on this occasion ? lie had heard his speech with
peat regret. He had heard the Noble Lord the Member
eel' Dorchester with great regret; but he would not corn-
rtt on his speech, as he was not then in his place. Let
14ge House mark the difference between them. The Ro-
n Catholics proposed that all persuasions should be
equally treated by this money, which belonged to all. They
~luired no preference—they only demanded equality.—
(Cheers.) They did not require the money belonging to
oe inembera of the Establialled Church ; they only said,
;%st take ours. Refuse the vote altogether, and that
„rwlld be just ; but if it was to be granted, they
s'Rht not to keep the money all to the rich
rid refuse airy of it to the poor. Much had been said
shout our Christianity, and he did not like to hear some
ishears that he had heard upon that, proceeding unbecom-
:o3' as they did from the Right Hon. Baronet. There
ere some points that were important. Faith was impor-
t
ant-ellope was cheering—but Charity was above all—it
'.eluded all, and formed a proper basis for all.—(Much
cheering )
f Mr. GLADSTONE said it was with deep and un-
bele le,e forrelhe uct well
that he rose to take a partn in this de-
a knew the deep and cardial principles
0,:l %Odell it turned, and those principles in the abstract
ere what he believed could not be discussed in that
House
with advantage. And to that doctrine they had a
a''llifl,e assent from the professions of Hon. Members
e
"PPosite, arid from the Hon. Member for Dublin, who had
Just, and so speedily, vanished from his place, who, in the
tPeech he had just 'delivered, had laid down and stated
11,!°st clearly Iris views of the introduction of questions on
theology
into that House, and stated with great power the
reasons why those questions ought not to be made the
!Ned matter of debate. But how did he apply that doe-
,e'ilae? By patine to him ( Mr. G.), personally, questions on
re subject of the authority of tradition.—( Hear, hear. )
seemed as if he was an individual who was to be picked
Oat and made liable to an examination of his religious
°lcluions He should have no objection to that in a pro •
Per place ; but was that to be so in respect to him in that
tc:3llse, while the moment Han. Gentlemen opposite
e;:°d:the least allusion made to their religious principles
'e° to rise up and protest against the introduction of
lieir.,a subject as unfit to be discussed there ?—( Hear,
be ) This was not the first time it had happened that
had,)eine been personally appealed to in that House. The
an:re Lord opposite himslf
tli - Condescended to ad on mo.re occasions than
noticeeh
a book of his, which amidst
Dee many avocations of that Noble Lord he was quite sure
lviesradTtlicilinier:itTal:
'l) p(rlilnecairp,lehseLri.
doTwline
in
nNotraet
-ook, and the course to which they were to lead. Let
him tell the Noble Lord he did not flinch from any one
word he bad ever said or written; and in his turn he had
a right to try the principles of the Noble Lord
and to ascertain, or to ask, what the conse-
quences to this country would be of following
out the legitimate and immediate principles which
he had more than once expressed in reference to the
Established Church in, this country, in Scotland, and Ire-
land„..._( Hear.) And the lion. Member for Liskeard had
spoken of him last night as advocating principles which,
it consistently followed out, ought to lead to persecution.
It was somewhat hard for him to be subjected to those ac-
: cusations In a place where it was impossible for him,
without a deviation from what he considered to be his
duty, and without abandoning a proper respect for the
subject matter of debate, to defend himself again.
(Cheers. ) lie should not be diverted from what he con-
sidered to be his proper course, but if the Noble Lord
thought proper to say of him, that he wished to reduce
the right of private judgment to a right of agreeing
with the Church of England, it would be just as
easy forpim - (Mr. Gladstun) to say that the Noble
Lord was trying to reduce the right of private judgment
to a right of agreeing with that which they did not believe
to he consistent with the truth.—( Hear, hear ) And if
the Noble Lord said his principles were to lead to na-
tional infidelity, it was equally right for him to say that
the Noble Lord's were to lead to national infidelity. He
Would say, agreeing most cordially in the position, that
theological questions ought not, and as he believed need
not be introduced into the discussions of that House, they
assuredly ought not, when they were introduced for the
Purpose of misrepresentation and caricature, or by persons
who had not seriously applied their minds to the responsi-
hility of the subject, but who were prepared to turn the
most solemn matters into ridicule. With respect to the
lion, and Learned Member for Dublin, he spoke of being
fond of statistics, and the use he had made of them re-
minded him of a saying ascribed to the late Mr. Canning,
that he had a great distrust of a fact in debate, but that
if there was anything he distrusted more than that, it was
a figure.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") What said the
Honourable and Learned dember ? Why, that he
had discovered that there were 97,000 churches in
this country before the Reformation. A statement, de-
pending upon historical research, which, if it were known
to any one, was not known to any other human being
than the lion. and Learned Gentleman.—( Hear, hear.)
It was not easy to test a statement of that sort, applying
to a period so long ago ; but they bad the mains of test-
ing what he had brought forward of a later date. He bad
heard of 9,000,000 of Dissenters. Why, the House would
recollect that they were not speaking of Ireland—arid
what was the real number of Dissenters in England ?
He believed he spoke from very goad authority, when he
referred to a letter, published by Mr. Dann, the Secre-
tary for the British and Foreign Soc'ety School, pub-
lished in the Morning Chronicle, he believed in the
month of October, 1837, in which be made the entire
number of Protestant Dissenters in this country—consist-
ing of a population of about 15 millions, to amount to
between 24 millions to three millions of persons.
But there was another point which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had travelled into the region of statistics for.
lie repeated twice in the face of that House that
the Church of England was demanding money for public
education while it was already in the possession of money
amounting to eight millions a year. Why the Hon. and
' Learned Gentleman had been so much engaged with his
statistics, that he had not taken the pains to refer to the
Papers which had recently been laid before that House.—
(Hear, hear.) If he had done so he would have found
that it appeared that the whole revenues of the Church of
England, so far as they were applicable to its Ministry,
• amounted to about three and-a-half millions ; and if they
allowed about half a million more to the endowed schools
and the Universities it would still appear that the lion. and
Learned Gentleman, professing to guide the House to
useful knowledge by accurate statistical research, had as-
sumed to himself the privilege of just doubling
what the real amount was.—( Hear hear.) One word
more in reply to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
on the subject of the Wesleyan Methodists. lie was rather
at a loss to divine with what view it was that the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had expended so much ingenuity
in demonstrating that, as the Wesleyan Methodists were
practically not at variance with the docter.nes of the Church
of England, they should not remain in a state of separa-
tion. He (Mr. Gladstone) would be rejoiced that they
should return into a union with the Church, fer he had
always regarded with pain the secession of that body, and
believed all the fault lay much less upon their side than
that of the body by whose proceedings they had been
cast out. He hoped be should live to see the day
when that union would be accomplished, and he
was glad to find the Hon. and Learned Member
even an uevoluntary ally of that union. He thought it
extremely hard however that they should be taunted
with being opposed to civil and religious liberty. When
he recollected the history of their conduct with regard to
the great measure of the abolition of negro slavery—
( Hear, hear)--when he called to mind that none were so
unwearied or persevering as they in pressing to its happy
issue that question which was of such importance to the
interests of humanity, Ile knew not upon what grounds that

charge could be brought against them. Ile meant not to I
throw imputations on any man, but he must say that he
heard with surprise the lion. and Learned Gentleman
designate, as opposed to the freedom of their fellew
countrymen, a body who had been foremost in the promo-
tion of that great measure. Now, with respect to the two
plans of Government education—they were told that the
first plan, embracing normal schools, had been for the
present abandoned—not finally abandoned, but merely
postponed. Look at the position in which they would be
placed if they adopted the present plan of the Government.
The present plan was to make the distribution of the
money votes for education indiscriminate, or, as it was
termed, " impartial." If that plan were acted upon; the
money would be ratedly distributed between the different
religious bodies in connection with them throughout the
country. Many of these bodies were small, and unable to
support normal schools ; and what predicament would they
be placed in if the plan were adopted? ,Why, they would
come forward and say, " You have enabled us to establish
schools, but without good masters we can't have good
schools, and to make it effective we must have good mas-
ters." Therefore they would be compelled to introduce
the general normal schools, or the grant would be thrown
away. So that, insidious as in other respects the new
minute was, it was most of all insidious in this—that it was
intended to betray these bodies into the dilemma either
of adopting the general normal schools, or leaving
themselves open to the imputation of having squandered
the public money upon bad schools, by opposing the only
means of rendering them advantageous. Many of the
fallacies and difficulties that beset the question lay in the
ambiguity of the term " education." Education sometimes
implied technical and civil knowledge, but education had
sometimes a much higher meaning. The Hon. Member
for Waterford, and it was due to him to state that no man
had spoken with more strength and fervour against educa-
tion, being merely external and technical, had admitted
that there must be in connection with it a moral discipline,
which would operate upon the habits and dispositions of
the people, distinct from what was merely useful. That
education then was not to be n.eeely technical—it was to be
an education in the emphatic language of the:Noble Lord,
in the first minute " in which religion was to be combined
with the whole matter of instruction, and regulate the entire
system of discipline." It was impossible to conceive words
more satisfactory than these—it comprised, not a merely
secular education, but also a great moral system of in-
struction. intended to reform their natures, and instil
those principles which would render them competent to
the discharge of all the duties of life. He ( Mr. Gladstone)
was not prepared to admit any other principle, except after
full and fair discussion, and after the Government fur once
ventured to avow what they intended—( Cheers)
when they should have an opportunity of joining issue
with something they could grasp instead of phantoms and
shadows.—( Loud cheering.) He concluded that the pre-
sent system was contrary to the constitution of the
country. He need not refer to ancient history in support
of that proposition, and there was no modern instance
against him, except the case of the Prisons Bill, which
could scarce be referred to, because it ha not yet become
law, and which was not quite applicable,d because it was
put upon the express basis that, when a man was in cus-
tody, he was prevented supplying himself, and the State
was bound to supply him with the religious instruction he
required. The Hen. and Learned Member for Dublin had
stated that all these Secieties had already recognised all the
forms of Protestant dissent, and that it was in vain to deny
the last portion of the boon to the Roman Catholics.
The Hon. and Learned Member had greatly misrepre-
sented the British and Foreign Society, if he supposed
that it taught all the peculiarities of the Dissenters—the
whole principle and nature of the British arid Foreign
Society was based upon the principle that they could ex-
tract from the Bible certain general doctrines—( Ministe-
rial cheers)—on which the great bulk of Christians
could agree. It was' hardly necessary to refer in support
of that to the list of persons who supported that Society.
The Noble Lord (John Russell) might not think it
any establishment of the proposition to quote his name, but
he found among them the names of many persons sincerely
attached to the Church, namely, the late Lord Carring-
ton, Earl Roslyn, the Earl of Chichester, Lord Bexley,
and the present Hon. Member for Bandon ; and among'
the subscribers to the Society were George the Third,
George the Fourth, William the Fourth, and her present
Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria. It was well
known that the children of the Church wer
I frequently
educated in these schools.—( Hear, hear. ) t would not
be contended that the state of that country had yet recog-
nised the principle of teaching the people of Eng-
land all forms of religion, and thereby placing
truth and error and falsehood in juxta-position.
Let the matter be well considered, and when they were
called upon to take a step which would advance them in a
manner contrary to all former policy, let them be told what
were the expected results—let them not be asked to em-
bark upon the ocean of political change without knowing
the haven to which they were bound.—( Cheers. ) It was
enough for him that the law was the support of the one
faith and the Church—that was the Church of the coun-
try. He would call their attention for a moment to what
had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for the West
Riding—every thing which fell from the Noble Lord was
entitled to much respect both from the position and the
well-known honesty of character of the Noble Lord—from
his character and abilities. That Noble Lord said, " While
the State condescends to employ Roman Catholic sinews,
and to finger Unitarian gold, it is bound to see that they
enjoy the blessings of education."—(Cheers.) Such was
the principle laid down by the Noble Lord, and he wished
to treat it with all respect. He was perfectly
aware that the question was surrounded with
difficulties—(Hear, hear, hear)—but if the State had
no other functions than that of representing all sects of
the people then he assented to the principle, but the
state had a conscience.—(Laughter and cheers.) Would
the Hon. Member for Kendal, who had been so success-
ful in advancing those questions be had taken in hand
during the present session—(Loud cheers)—would he, or
would any Hon. Member tell him, how the duty could
be applicable if the conscience were not.—( Cheers.) It
was constantly urged that it was the duty of the State
to give the people education—was not the argument
equally good, that the State were obliged to give the
people religion—(Cheers)—if the State must endow
schcols, was not the argument equally good that they
must endow chapels—where was the difference in the
principle—where the difference between the two endow-
ments? If the State must endow a school for all sects
of religion, why should it not endow a chapel or a sy-
nagogue—a meeting or a mosque. The Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin said there were many thou-
sands of Catholics in want of education, and schools
ought to be endowed for them. Chapels were more
expensive than schools—if they could not build schools
they could not build chapels. Show him then the reason,
according to the argument of his Noble Friend, that they
should not be obliged to provide places of worship for all
sects. Let them look at the extent to which the argument
went ; was it to be limited to Christians, or to Christianity
of any form ? The petition of the three denominations of
Dissenters, presented a few nights ago, was variously
worded ; they prayed that the youth, Jewish and Christian,
of the country should be taught with a due regard to the
Holy Scriptures. How were the Jewish people to be
taught with a due regard to the Holy Scriptures, when
they believed that the New Testament was altogether a
forgery ?—( Cheers.) Were they to force them to
read the New Testament? That was contrary to the
principles laid down by the minute of the Board.
But he, and those who thought with him, protested
against the State providing for the propagation of that
which the law of the land said was erroneous. In India
they had millions of poor subjects professing Hindooism.
From no part of our dominions did we derive more money,
in fact, all our relations with that country were money re-
lations. Had those millions a right to ask us fora grant
to propagate their religious idolatry ? The Right Hon.
and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets, than whom
there was riot a more honest man in the House, had settled
the question for them in a manner honourable to him for
his candour; he had been most studious to cut himself off
from all retreat ; he had spoken out honestly. If the
principle laid down by that Hon. and Learned Member
were good for one case, it must be pod for all—there
could be n 9 exception. Was the House prepared to adopt
the principle ? Was it prepared to say that the State and
constitution of this country did not recognise any
difference between that religion which God has revealed,
and that which he has not.—( Hear, hear.) Are they to
be held as equally efficacious moral instruments in the
improvement of human character.—( Cheers.) The Dis-
senters in this country, it was true, did not demand endow-
ments, because here they were difficult to be get, but in the
Colonies, where they were easier attainable, they were
not denied. He believed the Dissenters here were sin-
cere—they demanded the endowment of schools only.
What the Members of that House were bound to look at
was, not the will of the moment—not the demand now
urged,—(Cheers from Lord John Russell)—but what was
the legitimate scope of the arguments.—(Hear, hear.)
(Lord John 'Russell made a remark across the
table, but in so low a tone as not to reach the gallery.)
What was the state of the Goverment—they were living
from d 4 to day by shifts and expedients,—( Loud cheer-
ing)—and using arguments, the results of which they
were not aware. While he looked back at the brilliant
though short administration of his Right Hon. Friend
—( Loud cheers and laughter)—where was the man who
would deny the epithets lie had used, who would dare
deny their truth as applied to the conduct of the Right
lion. Baronet ?—( Cheers.) When he was taunted with
being behind the spirit of the age, he returned the taunt
by telling his opponents that they were behind the spirit
of their own arguments.—( Cheers ) The effect of those
arguments would be to destroy the principles of religion
in the State, and the national character, which was our
boast.--( Cheers.) Let the Government propose that
which they had to propose in a distinct form, and let them
show that when they would call upon the House to give
religious instruction to all religious sects in the schools of
the country they were advancing something different in
principle from endowing all faiths, all religions, and all cha-
pels. Let them do that, and the House would know for what
they were contending.. But no, they would not do that,
because they dared not.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had
refused to hear anything, by his attacks on the Church and
the religion of the country. He should have thought the
Noble Lord would have recollected the enormous political
advantages lie had given to his opponents by creating in
the minds of the people at large the belief that his plans, if
not his intentions, were hostile to the religion of the country.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) But no; year after year, defeated
on one plan, he brought forward another, and every
time he was obliged to recoil from the assault, healed,
defeated, and disgraced.—( Loud cheers.) He had been
most unwilling to mix in this debate, and he agr
weed
with the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, ho
said, " Let U 3 quarrel on something else." Most pain-
ful was it to him to make religion the subject of hostile
discussion ; but the Governrnent, not satisfied with being
defeated on the Appropriation Clause—( 10er, hear)—
not satisfied with being beat upon the Church-rates—
(Hear, hear)—they tried another point of attack, and by
an attempt ebually insidious, they endeavoured to under-
mine that fortress which they could not storm.—
( Loud cheers.) A plan to be worthy the assent
of Parliament ought to be good in itself, and accept-
able to the people ; but he contended it was bad
n principle, and that it reversed the ancient policy of this