The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-04 00:00:00

!the decision of the Standing Orders Committee, and to op- , by the events which have passed within our own view.
pose the reference back. Let the Committee recollect that the vestries of England
•
Mr. AGLIONBY wished to be informed as to the course I (and I rejoice that they are so) are not confined to any parti-
followed by the Standing Orders Committee, because he had cular class or sect of religion cf his Majesty's subjects. In
.always understood that they confined themselves simply to , Ireland that is the case, but in England you invite at the
'the question whether or not the Standirg Orders were t commencement of every year all the king's subjects to meet in
.complied with. He supposed witnesses were not exa- ' vestry, and determine whether there shall or shall not be a
:mined by them as to the merits of the case before them) Church-rate, and upon the vote of the vestry so assembled the
.at either side, and that they merely made their report, i legality of that rate is determined. Why Sir, what has this led
;stating, however, if any special circumstance had come to to ? It has led in many cases not only to conflicting opinions
their knowledge which would justify a departure from the but a determined spirit of resistance against Church-rates—
rules required by the House. He also wished to know if they lit has arrayed the Dissenter against the Churchman—it has
had ever taken into consideration facts not contained in the produced annual discussion and annual dissension, and it has
report from the other Committee. led to results that in a great number of parishes and cities
After a few words from Mr. GREENE, which were inaudi- and towns throughout the country has been anything but
Me in the Gallery, favourable to the stability of the Church, or favourable
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY said the Standing Orders to the promotion of Christian knowledge or Christian religion.
Committee had invariably adhered to the facts stated by the Let it not, therefore, be said that this present state of things
other Committee. In many cases, without the examination of does give an efficient support to the Church Establishment
age nts, and other parties, it would be impossible for the —on the contrary—l maintain that it leads to dissension and
Standing Orders Committee to come to any satisfactory con- confusion among parties. On the first discussion on this subject
elusion. I think my Hon. Friend, the Member for the University of
After a few words from Sir J. BECKETT, Oxford ( Sir R. Inglis) stated that there had not been
Sir EARD L E Y WILMOT moved, as an amend- a resistance to Church-rates in more than very few parishes.
rment, that, with the concurrence of the Standing Or- Upon the authority of another Hon. Member of this House it
ders' Committee, the petition of the promoters of the was stated that the recusant parishes amounted to more
Tarnworth and Rugely Railway be referred back to the Stand- than a hundred ; but Sir, when I find—l care not
in,g Orders Committee, in order that they may inquire into whether it is fifty or a hundred parishes in which there
all the allegations of the petitioners, and report thereupon to is a determined spirit against these rates, I should be
the House. blind indeed to the interests of the Church Establishment, and
Sir R. INGLIS said, as it was then so near the hour for to the interests of all connected with it, did I not attempt to cor-
public business, and as it was likely that there might be a dis- rect what I consider a great evil. It may be said that it is
cussion even upon the amendment of the Hon. Baronet, he confined to particular localities, but I consider it a plague spot
would suggest that the debate be adjourned. which is breaking out in one place, but which in a very short
Sir JOHN WROVESLE Y said there was much good time will overspread the land. Sir, I shall take the liberty of
sense in the observations which had fallen from the Right Hon. describing to the House that spirit of resistance, and its con-
Member for the University of Oxford. He would, therefore, sequences. I have many cases which I might lay before the
move, as an amendment, that the debate be adjourned till House, but I would select only a few as specimens—first of all
Monday.—Agreed to. I shall take the case of Sheffield. In Sheffield the opposition
NORTH MIDLAND RAILWAY. to Church-rates commenced in 1817 or 1818. On that occasion an
Mr. HARDY presented a petition from certain individuals, adjournment of the meetiug was moved, the same scene fel-
praying to be heard by counsel against this Bill. lowed year after year, until the year 1822, there was a de-
PA RLIAMENTARY AGENTS. clded contest, the only effect of which was effecting a decided
The SPEAKER said that he had, in obedience to the separation between Churchmen arid Dissenters, between the
Orders of the House, prepared resolutions with reference to years 1817 and 1822. The meetings were held is, the Church,
the Rules and Orders to be adopted by Parliamentary where scenes were enacted frequently which were disgraceful
Agents and Officers of the House which he would lay to all parties—scenes which were a fit illustration to the
upon the table. The Right Honourable Gentleman also working of the system. The writer goes on to say,
informed the House that he had received from the liana- " There was one scene I shall never forget—there was an
per Office a petition complaining of an undue return for the actual trial of personal strength between two gentlemen, each
borough of Dungarvon. trying to eject the other from the Chair, which created a scene
CHURCH-RATES. of the utmost confusion." There was no further trial till 1824,
On the Order of the Day being moved for the House going and in that year, the active opponents of the rate on the
into Committee, to consider that part of his Majesty's Speech former occasion being dead, the Church-rate party called a
relative to Church-rates, several Hon. Members rose with Vestry Meeting to levy a rate, and there was the
petitions in their hands. same truly disgusting scene as on the former occasion, when
The SPEAKER—One at a time.—(Laughter.) a resolution was proposed to negative the rate on the ground
Sir JOHN CAMPBELL presented petitions from various of the injustice of it. This was carried, and there has been
Dissenting Congregations in the city of Edinburgh, praying no attempt to lay a rate since then, and the consequence has
fur the entire abolition of Church Rates, and against the re been, that in Sheffield no rate has existed since 1817 or 1818.
yium donum. Here was a meeting in the Church, in the face of the whole
Mr. C. WOOD presented a petition signed by 4,000 inha- community—here were the Dissenters and Churchmen arrayed
bitants of the town of Halifax in favour of the abolition of against each other—the contest resolved itself into personal
Church Rates. violence, and this occurrence took place in the face of the
Petitions were presented in favour of the abolition of Church- whole assembled parishioners. All this had taken place, and
rates by Lord Ebrington, by Mr. Robert Steuart, and by what was the end ?—not in getting a rate, but in the extinc-
Lord John Russell, and against the abolition by Sir W. Follett. tion of that rate—the utter extinction of it during the time I
INDIA. have referred to.—( Cheers.) The next case to which I
Lord DUDLEY STUART wished to know from the shall refer is the case of Manchester. I refer to these great
President of the Board of Control whether any information hail towns, because I wish to show the magnitude of the evil—
been received relative to the death of Reject Chief, and of (Cheers)—because I know that public feeling is more alive
distutbances on the frontiers of our Indian possessions, which in these great towns, and because I know that the excitement
would render it necessary for this country to wage war on there—whether of a political, of a religious, or an intellectual
the inhabitants of those districts. character extending itself first in all the great towns—is
Sir J. HOBHO USE had not yet received any intelligenc sure to extend itself afterwards throughout the whole cornmu-
of the death of the Prince alluded to. lie could say that the nity at large. At Manchester 1 find that the Dissenters in
attention of the Government of India had been directed to the 1832 resisted Church-rates, and on a show of hands the rate
proceedings on the frontiers, and he had no doubt that certain was lost. A poll was demanded, for which no preparation was
negociatious now pending would be brought to a satisfactory made, and after five or six days' struggle, and after polling-
conclusion. between 7 arid 8,000 votes, the rate was lost by in majority of
one.—( Cheers.) The churchwardens instituted a scrutiny,
and I believe that on that scrutiny the majority was
declared to be in favour of the rate. —( Hear, hear.) This is
case in is rich the rate was successful ; but the cases in which
the rate was successful are as strong for my motion as those
where it has been unsuccessful.—( Hear.) To this, however,
I shall ret:r hereafter. The churchwardens conducted the
scrutiny, and they declared that the final majority was in favour
of the rate ; but what has been the result ?—( Cheers ) My
lion. Friend behind me ( Mr. Philips) knows. Was it levied ?
—( Cheers.) Was it eclieeted ?—( Continued cheers.) Was
the Church supported under this rate ? No such thing.—
( Cheers.) No step has been taken under this rate.—
( Cheers.) No levy has been made under it.—( Cheers.) The
churchwardens have not dared even to make a levy—
( Tremendous cheering )—so that even when the rate
has been successful it has been inoperative for any goad
purpose.—( Loud cheers.) 11 has excited a storm, and all fur
nothing.—( Cheering.) Confusion, and contest, and party
dissensions have been excited—and have they succeeded in
their object? No such thing.---( Cheers.) In 1834 a contest
again took place in Manchester. The election of the Mem-
bers was nothing compared to it. The poll lasted five or six
days, and nearly 15,000 votes were polled, and there was
a majority against the rate of 11,000. Ic appears that a scru-
tiny was demanded, but what was the result ? This large
majority was declared to be a minority, but, though dared
to do so, they declined to try the case at law.—( Hear.
Was it politic in such a community as Manchester to array
15,000 persons upon a Church question ? and when they had
succeeded, it.was after such a fashion that they did not dare
to try the case at law, or collect tire rate thus established.
In the year 1835 another parish meeting was celled, and a
very large assembly came together, bat the show of hands was
so decisive that the churchwardens declined to go to a poll,
and from that period to the present in the town of Man-
chester there has been no attempt whatever to raise Church-
rates. Can or ought this state cf things to continue ?
—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) If you depend upon the Church-
rate for the maintenance of the Church, can you depend upon
the present state of the law to enforce that payment ? Is it
now sufficient to say you must give us stronger laws—more
effectual laws—( Cheers)—if you wish to maintain the ques-
tion ? Do you think that you can get the House of Com-
mons to do that ?—( Loud cheers.) The Hun. Member for
Sibthorp—(Great laughter)—l beg pardon, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Lincoln has said, that if the Church-rates could
not be collected under the law as it at present existed,
there was nothing to be done hut for the Legislature to give
additional power.—( Cheers.) I should like to see not only
the person, hut the party, however combined, whatever may
he their force or number, who still come down to this House,
and ask, not to give to the people of England a settlement of
this question, but an additional power for enforcing the payment
of Church-rates.—( Cheers.) I shall advert to that proposi-
tion hereafter ; but in the meanwhile I will say, that what-
ever indivilual thinks he can obtain from the Legislature
additional powers to enforce the payment of Church-rates,
miscalculates the character of the Legislature of this
country, as well as miscalculates the character of the
people whom that Legislature represents.—(Hear, hear.)
There is another case which, as it establishes the first part of
my proposition, I must take the liberty of adverting to. The
case I allude to occurred in a township in Yorkshire,
called Applethorp. In this case there was a large Church
built; heavy rates were demanded, and were agreed to at the
vestry m tetings, and a rate of 2s. 91. was levied. 1 have
show a 3nu cases in which the rate was refused ; I have shown
you cases in which a rate was demanded but not enforced; and
the object of the present case is to show you that the rate was
enforced—what the consequences of that enforcement were—
and how strongly those consequences prove the inconve-
nience of the existing law. In this case the rate of
2s. 9d was proposed to be levied on a Captain Flower,
a Dissenter, who resisted it. lie was summoned
before a Magistrate—persisted in his refusal—and denied the
legality of the rate. This calling in question the legality of
the rate deprived the Magistrate of jurisdiction ; it was taken
to another tribunal, and the result was that Captain Flower
had to pay the rate with costs, amounting to 2501.—(" Hear,"
from Col. Sibthorp. ) I admit that if he resisted and went to law,
and the law was against him, he was bound to abide by the con-
sequences. I suppose that is the meaning of the cheer from the
Gallant Colonel. But there is another circumstance con-
nected with this case, which perhaps, when the Gallant
Colonel hears, he will also cheer ; it is this—that no
rate has been granted ever since.—( Cheers and laughter.)
This case showed that for the recovery of a rate of 2s. 9d.
contested on the ground of its legality, it cost the'party 2501.
—( Hear.) If you read that lesson to the people of Eng-
land, depend upon it that their sympathy would be ex-
cited for the man who had paid the sum of 2501., and
against the existing law. Now gentlemen will see that all
these illustrations, which may be tedious or unprofitable, are
for the pnrpose of establishing the first point in my argument,
namely, that the law cannot stand as it is.—( Hear.) If there be
gentlemen in this House who think the law can stand as it is, let
them come forward and maintain that argument, but I wish
to prove to the House, which is the first point that ought to
be proved, when any change in the law is contem-
plated, that the existing state of the law is defective.—
( Hear.) Until you lay that foundation you have no
right to come to Parliament for the purpose of changing
it, and it is with that object I have referred to the facts I have
brought before the House. But I have another authority on the
subject. I have one authority on the subject which cannot
fail to have great weight with those gentlemen upon the other
side who suppose that the present system can be maintained.
It is the authority of my Noble Friend opposite, and I rejoice to
have an opportunity of quoting to the House any authority of his
in support of my opinion. We have differed on many ques-
tions and on many occasions ; but we have never been engaged
upon any terms but upon those of friendship.—( Hear.) When I
appeal to his authority on this subject, I do not affect to know
what his opinion may be upon the specific plan
which I have to propose.—( Hear.) But I know that
he is a high authority with the other side of
the House, and I therefore call upon the House to listen atten-
tively to the opinion which he expressed upon this subject in
1834. My Noble Friend, stated that " true it was that though
Church-rates had been resisted, the Church had been suc-
cessful in overcoming the resistance"—(Cheers)—and then
he proceeded to state, with a truely wise and statesmanlike
view of the subject, the consequences of that success.—
(Cheers.) " Suppose," said he, " that year after year, the
Church should be successful in maintaining the payment of
Church-rates, even to the utter most farthing, and in maintaining
every abuse connected with making and collecting, these rates,
does the Hon. Member for Oxford think, that such proceedings
are useful to the Church, or that they tend in any degree to pro-
mote the interests of true religion ?" My Noble Friend knew
on what grounds to appeal to the Hon. Member for Oxford.
—( Hear, hear.) He appealed to him on the greund of
the interest of the Church itself—(Hear, hear)—and
the advancement of true religion.--(Cheers.) I ask, Sir,

CANADA.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was his intention
to place certain resolutions before the house on the sub-
ject of Canada, that Members might be enabled to come to
a vote upon them when this question was discussed. If the
state of the public business permitted it, he would bring the
subject forward on Monday next.