The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-15 00:00:00

LAW OF LIBEL.

The HoN. MEMBER also gave notice that, on the sates
day, he would move for leave to bring is a Bill, secui Ong
the liberty of the press, and to check vexatious actions for
libel.

QUALIFICATION OF VOTERS.
Mr. THOS. DUNCOMBE gave notice that when
the Bill for the Registration of Voters was in Com-
mittee, he would move that it be an instruction
to the Committee to introduce a clause for the repeal of
that portion of the Reform Act which requires the payment
of rates and taxes as a qualification for voting.
Mr. HUME gave notice that to-morrow he would
move an humble address to her Majesty praying for
copies of any correspondence relative to the state
of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick; also that lie
should move for returns of the revenues received
from Lower Canada in each year, distinguishing
casual and territorial revenues;--also, copies of the lists of
fees recommended by the Secretary of State for the Home
Department to be adopted by the Town Council, and a
return of the amount of fees received by the town chrks of
the several boroughs in England and Wales.
REGISTRAR OF HACKNEY CARRIAGES.
Mr. W YNN gave notice that to-morrow he should
move for a new writ for the Borough of Southwark, in
the room of Att. D. W. Harvey, who, since his election,
had accepted the office of Registrar of Hackney Carriages.

REGISTRATION OrELECTORS'BILL.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL trusted that the House
would allow the Registration of Electors' Bill to be read a
second time to-night) notwithstanding it was a dropped
order froth yesterday.
fair R. ISIGLiS objected to its being read a second
time tc-day, as totally without precedent.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought it extremely incon-
venient tb read a Bill a second time which had been ap-
pointed for a previous day on which no House was made.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he would move
the second reading tb-mortow.
SIR J. BARROW.

Sir E. CODRINGTON, seeing the Secretary for the
Admiralty in his place, wished to ask him with respect to
a letter signed by the Under-Secretary of the Admiralty.
TW letter bad created a Fieat deal of interest among
the Admirals in her Majesty's service, and he wished to
know whether, in commenting upon that letter, they were
to consider it as coming from the Admiralty, or from the
individual pereonallY:
Mr. WOOD conceived that the Gallant Admiral had
referred hot to a letter,, but to a, chapter, in Sir John Bar-
ritw's Life of Lord Anson. He could have assured the
Gallant Admiral that the Admiralty had no Weil with re-
spect to what that chapter contained, and that the views
and opinions stated in it were those of Sir John Barrow,
and not those of the Board of Admiralty.
Capt. GORDON alluded to a pamphlet) published yes-
terday, and asked whether the facts impugned in that
pamphlet were published on the authority of the Board.
Mr. WOOD gave the same answer to this question as
to the other. They were not brought forward on the au-
thority of the Board.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL alluded to some misunder-
standing on the subject of a notice connected with the Corn-
laws, given by the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton, and .s
so short a notice had been given of what he meant to pro-
pose, he would beg to ask what that notice was?
Mr. VILLIERS regretted that there was anything not
clearly understood in a notice of so much consequence.
It was for the reception of evidence at the bar of the House,
in support of the allegations contained in certain petitions.
He meant to present some petitions on the subject of the
Corn-laws, alleging certain things ; and on Tuesday next
he intended to move that those allegations be supported by
evidence at the bar of the House.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, now he knew what the mo-
tion was, did not think it was incumbent on him, before the
right time came, to declare what his intention was.—( Hear,
hear, and cheers.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought such conduct decid-
edly unfair. The notice of the Hon. Member for Wolver-
hampton had been printed on the Votes of the House the same
day, and if the question had not been put, we should have re-
mained in ignorance of the matter. The Noble Lord had not
treated the House fairly in not stating what the intentions
of Government were, and it seemed they were now to
wait till Tuesday next in order to know what course was
to be taken.
Mr. VILLIERS said the Right Hon. Baronet hod
not quite correctly reported what he (Mr. Villiers) had
done upon this
question. Qn the Ist day of the Session
he gave distinct notice of the course he meant to pur-
usntabteedfor that hatthiet
was
sue. He was asked by an Honourable Member opposite
(Mr. Christopher) what course he intended to take, and
be answered most distinctly that it was ,his intention not
to raise the general question of the Corn-laws upon Tues-
day, but that his motion would be to call evidence at the
Heha(l
also
e question
his theninte
nptrieosne n t
u t .
bring( H e
trh.
) whole q
bar in support of the allegations of a petition which he
House; but most certainly he would give notice of his

intention, so that the House should not betaken by surprise
Sir ROBERT PEEL—There was no ground of corn-
pinint against the Hon. Gentleman, for upon the first day
of the Session he had distinctly stated the course he in-
tended to pursue. The notice given by him was most
distinct, andcould not be misunderstood by any one ; hut the
Noble Lord had distintly stated that it was his intention to
or pose the motion of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton.
0.1 Tuesday last he ( Sir Robert Peel) asked the Noble
• Lord whether he could inform the House what course
the Government intended to pursue, or what amend-
ment ',hey meant to propose upon the Honourable
Member's motion. lie did not then press for an
answer, but the Noble Lord had most distinctly promised
that he would give en answer that day.—( Cheers.) He
wes surprised, he must confess, to receive such a notice from
the Noble Lord as had just been given to the House. Surely
the House ought to be in possession of the intentions of
Government upon a motion of such importance sonic drys
b fore that on which the motion was made.
Mr. VILLIERS had not yet presented the
petition on which his motion was founded. The Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell) had asked him what the pray er of
tl.et petition was, and be (Mr. V. ) told him that the peti-
tioners prayed that they might be ailowed to prove the
allegations contained in the petition by evidence at the
r of the House. That was a totally different prayer from
that of a total and immediate repeal of the Corn-laws.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Right Honourable
Paronet bad no doubt correctly stated the impression made
se on his mind by what had fallen from him (Lord J.
It issell)i but it was totally different from the impression
left. in his own mind.—( Cheers). He had distinctly
st ted that he would not pledge himself as to
v hat course he would take with respect to the
motion of the Honourable Member fir Wolverhampton ;
he had stated that be would give: his answers to-day.
(Cheers.) Certainly if be was about to propose
at amendment, or to propose any course different
frsrn that of the honourable Member for Wolverhamp.
n—if he was going to do otherwise than meet
th proposition with a distinct yes or no,
he would feel it his duty to give the House proper notice
of such intention. But in considering the question put ley
Ilia Right Honourable Baronet ( Sir Robert Peel), it forci-
bly occurred to him that it was too much to ask him to
d Clare positively what course the Government might
f; el it its duty to adopt upon such an occasion. The
Right Hon. -Baronet the Member for Kent appeared
to think that he (Lord J. Russell) gas adopting a very
unfair course, but be was sure he should not hear from the
Chair sue
.correction of that course, or that it was his duty,
f. r scie ral day s. before a motion was made, to state
that he had considered the question, and that no reasons
sod no arguments that could be urged would induce hint
to take any course other , than that he had made up
li s mind upon.—(Cheers.) Ile might have made
tie his own mind with respect to the question.—
( Loud cries of, " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.)
Pat he certainly still thought it would not be fair to the
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, or to
those numerous petitioners in the country who asked
to be heard at the bar of the Ilouse, that he .should
endeavour to prejudge that question, and to induce,
o hers to suppose beforehand that be should not give
his support to the motion.—( Cheers. ) As to any advan-
tage that could be gained by the course he had taken the
Right Hon. Gentleman might suppose, if he chose, that
he (Lord John Russell) meant to give his direct
support to the Honourable Member for Wolverhampton
aml then he could suffer no disappointment. He might
summon his forces next Tuesday, and no advantage could
then be taken of him.--( Great cheers and laughter.)
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL sail it was evident
he must have been under a mistake, but he did understand
rise Noble Lord most distinctly to promise that he would
give his Right Hon. Friend a decided answer this evening
—( Cheers)—and he certainly had believed that the Noble
Lord would have redeemed his promise.—(Opposition
cheering,)
Sir R. PEEL inquired whether before the House came
to consider the state of Canada, it would be put in pee-
s:ssion of any despatches from Sir John Colborne, giving
tee opinion of that distinguished officer as to the course
hich ought to be pursued.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not aware of any de-
seatches of the nature to which the Right Hon. Baronet
eluded. With respect to one subject to which his Right
I !on. Friend near him had adverted, namely, the presenta-
tion of a treaty, he wished to say that his Right Hon. Friend
would consider very seriously before producing any other
japer than the treaty which bad been laid before the House.
Sir R. PEEL was exceedingly glad to hear that some
reserve would be made.—( Hear, hear. )
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND.)
Lord MOR PET H then rose to move for leave to bring
int a Bill for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in
Deland, but the commencement of his observations were
nearly inaudible in consequence of the noise occasioned by
Members leaving the House. He said, as nearly as we could
collect—l rise, Sir, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the
reform of Municipal Corporations in Ireland. With what-
ever importance I may consider the proposition to be in-
vested, and however desirable I may consider it to be,
certainly cannot claim the attention of the House
to my motion on the score of its novelty. This,
I believe, Sir, if I succeed in inducing the House to give
me leave to bring in the Bill, will be the fifth measure of
the kind that has been introduced here, all of which, except
the very first, have been attended certainly with very long, I
will not say tedious discussions and protracted altercations
in both Houses of Parliament. The grounds, therefore,
Sir, upon which this measure rests, must be suffici-
ently familiar to every person whom I have the honour to
address. They were originally laid down with great
minuteness in the Report of the Commissioners for iu-
quiring into the state of Municipal Corporations in Ire-
land, which detailed with great minuteness and accuracy
their views respecting the abuses and imperfections of the
existing system, and the remedies that they recommended
as the most proper to be adopted for their correction, and
since that time up to this day, so far as -1 am aware, those
statements have been neither impeached nor questioned.
But what would make it eminently superfluous in me to
dilate at any length upon those grounds is the course
which has been adopted by the great party mustered on the
benches opposite, and assembled in still more formidable num-
bers elsewhere, who have in fact consented, on two separate
occasions to the entire destruction, extinction, and aliena-
tion of all the existing corporate institutions in Ireland ;
and upon one other occasion, when the Bill was before us
last year, they also did consent to their entire
Ise:fasting and remodelling. I therefore feel, Sir, that it
would be more than idle and importunate in me now to at-
tempt to dispute the ground which has been so often trodden.
1- think I should be doing what is much more in accord-
ance not only with my own measure but the pleasure
of the House at large if I confined myself exclusively
to the main points of difference and detail in carry-
ing the measure into effect, whereby the Bill which
I now ask for leave to bring in is distinguished from what
before was mutually agreed to by both Houses of Parlia-
ment. In so doing, I will beg leave to premise, that while
it has been our great wish to carry as far as possible upon
all essential points the assimilation of the
law between this country and Ireland wher-
ever the previous discussion in Parliament had shown
that it might be done without sacrificingessential interests,
without sacrificing the assimilation. of the institutions of
the two countries in those cases, we are disposed to em-
brace such additional towns, as may be considered neces-
sary. The main point in difference at the end of the last
Session will, I think, be admitted by all parties to have
been the amount of the franchise that was proposed
to be given for municipal purposes to all towns in which
Corporations were still to be left under the provisions of the
Bill. It will be remembered that the House of Lords
proposed that the elective franchise should be
given by the occupation of twelve months of a tenement of
the value of 101. a year, whereas our proposition was,
an occupation of six months of a tenement rated at what
was virtually Si. For the present we propose to adhere to
the proposition we last made of an 81. rating for the towns
to which we propose to extend corporate rights ;
but as it was admitted in the course of discussion on
both sides that it was desirable to identify the law and prac-
tice of the two countries, and as we were only prevented
from adopting that course by want of proper materials,
and those materials having been since supplied by the enact-
ment of the late Poor-law Bill for Ireland, we propose that
in any of the corporate cities of Ireland where a Poor- rate
has been established for three years, that there every person
occupying a tenement which has been rated to the relief of
the poor for the three previous years, should enjoy the
municipal franchise. With respect to the nomination of
Sheriffs, we adhere to the proposition we last made, thereby
dissenting from the amendments in the Lords, who proposed
to place their nomination exclusively in the Lord- Lieu-
tenant. We propose to retain the same number of
towns in the first schedule of the Bill, in which Corpora-
tions are to be given by express provision, and also
to ineli d. in the second schedule, the same
towns agreed upon in the last Session, but the
Crown will be empowered to extend corporate
rights to any town in Ireland, not included in the
schedules, possess rig a population of 3,000 inha-
bitants. The two lieu:XS proposed to deal with
these towns in different modes. Both those courses were
open to objections. One considered that a 101. rating
tt as too high for the large towns, am; that it would be
overwhelming in the small ones. Such was I:it:2 case if
the towns petitioned ; if they did not, then a eL;e-
tinction was to be made between boroughs having
a property of one hundred pounds a year and those that
bad nut. In the former case, the Commissioners were
to be chosen by a 101. constituency, and in the latter ndf,
We think those provisions at variance with the whole spirit
and scope of the Bill, which is not to encourage centralized
management, but to encourage it among large com-
munities. In boroughs not having property to the
xtent of one hundred pounds, the Corporations were
to continue the same. Such were the propositions made
the amendments in the House of Lords. Our'
amendments and our suggestions were that in all the
boroughs in schedule B, in which the Corporations
-acre not directly continued by the Act, the Commis.
sioners should be elected as under the oth Geo. 4, and the
corporate property should be transferred by them under the
Act. This was objected to. It was said that we had not
the right to make compulsory the provisions of the Act
ever parties who were not liable, and that it was contrary
to the power of the Government to apply the power of taxa.
tion against those who ought not to be taxed. We felt this
objection, and accordingly with reference to those towns
in schedule B, if they address a request to the Crown,
then the Crown will be empowered to extend to them
the rights of a Corporation, provided the franchise
is such a sum as will give a sufficient qualifica-
tion—one not exceeding 8/., and not less than 51. and after
three years, the English franchise is to come into operation.
In the boroughs which do not petition, and which conse-
quently do not express any desire for having Munici-
pal Corporations, the Commissioners elected under the
9th George IV., chap. 4, will administer corpora-
tion property of the town but without the power
of levying a rate, consequently that objection will be ob-
viated which was made to the measure of last year—that
by it we were levying a tax without consulting the people
on the subject. These, I believe, are all the salient
points of difference between the measure now proposed
and those points which were agreed on as the foundation
of a similar measure between the two Houses of Parliament.

I do not pretend to make the assertion which was m :de
the other evening, but which did not receive any great
degree of assent from the Members on either
side of the House, that this question of Municipal
Reform is the only remaining question, the settlement of
which is necessary to the tranquillity and prosperity of Ire-
land ; but I a() state now the simple fact that it is the only
remaining one of the three great questions relating to Ire-
land hich have occupied the time and attention of Parliament
during several successive Sessions.—( Loud cries of
" Hear, bear.") I think that the prospect vs o have of now
settling this question will enable us to devote our
time and attention to the discussion of other mea-
sures which are of great national importance,
and which, although perhaps they do not appeal
so much to party spirit, as watchwords, nevertheless, affect
the physical comfort of the people. I have thus laid be-
fore the House the course we mean to pursue with 'regard
to this measure of Municipal Reform, in as simple a man-
ner as I could do; and I do trust that before the end of this
Session of Parliament, we shall be enabled to bring this
much discussed and much vexed question to a satisfactory
and speedy termination..(Loud cheering, during which
the Noble Lord sat down.)
Mr. SHAW did not intend to offer any opposition to
the motion of the Noble Lord for leave to bring in
the Bill.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord had not gone
into any very minute detail of the measure he intended
to propose, but as he (Mr. Shaw) collected, the franchise
(lOW proposed was different, not only front that agreed to
on his ride cf the House last year, but also different
from that which had hitherto been proposed by the
Government. With regard to the franchise proposed by
the Noble Lord, he would beg to refer to an election which
took place under the Poor-law Bill very recently to which
the Noble Lord alluded. It had been hoped that the
spirit with which that measure was discussed and passed
through Parliament, without party feeling and without reli-
gious animosity, would have had its operation in Ireland.
But on the occasion to which he referred, when the Bill
was put in operation in the County and City of Limerick,
that hope list not been realized, and a very diffsrent
course to that anticipated had been adopted. When the
election of guardians was announced he had been informed
that at a meeting of those who belonged to a Political
Union in the City, a BomanCatholic clergyman
being in the chair, a list of twenty Guardians, the entire
number to be elected, was prepared; that copies of that
ist were sent to every Roman Catholic Clergyman in town and
neighbourhood; that they were forwarded to all parts of
the district covered by the Union ; and that, contrsry to the
opinion of not only Protestants but Roman Catholics, who
enjoyed property and whose station and respectability
ought to have secured to the;n a large share in the
election, it was carried—and in that list there were
19 Roman Catholics out of the t2O, although it was
notorious that in the county a large proportion of the pro-
per: y belonged to Protestant proprietors. That was stated
to him by credible witnesses. He was not conversant with
the facts themselves, nor had he bad an opportunity of
inquiring into them, but he believed the Noble Lord would
not coetradiet the main features of the ease, as he had
stated them. lie did not think this could lead the Noble
Lord to hope that the proposition be made, that the same
persons who were now electors under the Poor-law Bill
should be the corporate electors in Ireland, would receive
tl.c sanction of that side of the House. This was differs nt
from that which the Noble Lord proposed last year—viz.,
the 81. franchise. The Noble Lord had riot stated either
he boundary question was to form part of this Bill,
or whether it was to be a separate measure. It
could hardly be expected that tile boundary question
would be settled or properly considered in this present
Bill; and he thought that it would be much better that it
should form a separate Bill. It was very desirable that
this question should now be wholly settled, and the two
measures would be better discussed separately. Certain
amendments had been made upon the Municipal Act for
England, sand the Noble Lord had not stated whether
they were to be adopted or not. These were but trifling
matters, but it would have been as well that they had
been stated to the House.-- Cries of " Hear, hear.")
There was no doubt that now the Irish Church question
and the Poor-11ws having been settled —there was no doubt
these measures must have considerable effect, both upon
the Parliamentary and the Corporate franchise ; those
measures having been passed, lie did not think it would
be consistent to give any opposition to the present measure.
He was still of the same opinion with regard to Corpora-
tions in Ireland as he had ever been. He thought that it
would be better that they were altogether extinguished, by
which great expense would be saved. He sincerely be-
lieved that the question had not attracted much attention
in Ireland, and that the measure was not anxiously desired
by any portion of the people. Still, for the reasons he
had stated, he was desirous that the question should
be settled in some shape or other. With respect to the
question of disfranchisement, he was not prepared to agree
with the Noble Lord, but he would take the earliest op-
portunity of protesting against another proposition, viz.,
that after a lapse of three years they were to adopt the
English practice, by which every householder would be
entitled to the franchise. Feeling the strongest possible
objection to the franchise as proposed by the Noble Lord,
he would reserve any future observations till the measure
came more regularly before the House.—(Hear )
Mr. WM. ROCHE, who was very indistinctly
heard, said he had presided at a public meeting at Lime-
rick when the Poor, laws were first introduced, and on
that occasion it was decided that a certain number of per-
sons were worthy of the confidence of the people, and
should be intrusted with the management of the Poor-
Paws. The poor people from the agricultural districts
around attended, and consulted, as they were alWays in
the habit of doing, their clergymen on the subject. As
regarded the preponderating numbers of Roman Catholics
upon the list of guftraiunQ, he (Mr. Roche) had
never . thought of analysing the list, because he
thought it a matter of great absurdity to enter into
such an analysis, nor could he at present state whe-
ther the Roman Catholics preponderated or not,—( Hear. )
The Hon. Member went on for, some time, arguing that
the rate-payers in Ireland did not conduct the elec-
tions upon purely religious prejudices.
Mr. WYSE said he could bear a strong additional tes-
timony to the observations which had been made by his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Roche). Whenever the Roman Ca-
tholics of Ireland had been called upon to exercise the
elective franchise, either in respect to the officers of
County Infirmaries or Dispensaries, it was found that
the religious opinions of the candidate, either on one
side or the other, were not taken as the criterion,
bus the knowledge, the zeal, the abilites, and the character
of those who were recommended to the vacant office, and
whenever these qualities were found to exist, religious
opinions formed no disqualification. He ( Mr. Wyse) could
bear the testimony of his personal experience upon this
point, especially as to the City of Waterford; he believed that
the preponderance would be found on the side of those who
were of the Protestant religion. But when was this ques-
tion to be properly considered ?—( Hear)—when would it
cease to be treated in this House as a religious question ?
He was glad, at last, that the day was come when all claim
to the old Corporations had been given up. The people
ought to have the power of governing their own affairs ;
and when they had that power given to them, a feeling of
happiness would be engendered which the people of Ire-
land had been too long deprived of. There was no coun-
try—Russia, Austria, or America, or any other, where the
people were not permitted to assemble to manlige their own
local affairs. Ireland alone had been the counts y that had
been deprived of that. He was glad that the time was
likely speedily to come when the old Corporations would
be entirely done away with. In point of fact, their doom
was completely scaled—both sides of that House seemed to
be united in forgetting them, and that was the cane of their
apparent apathy. Houses in Ireland were perishing, lands
were uncultivated, and everything in that state which called
aloud for some remedy. The sooner, therefore, they came
to a decision upon something, and which he sincerely
trusted would not be delayed beyond the present Session, the
better for the people of Ireland and the better for the Cor-
porations themselves. As soon as the House had pronoun.
ced a new law that law would he adopted—there would
be no opposition to it—the people would feel that they
had the means given to them of managing their own af-
fairs—they would learn a practical lesson in the discharge
of their own affairs, and a closer union would take place be-
tween this country and Ireland than had ever yet been
experienced.
Mr. COLQUHOUN could not avoid making a few
remarks on some of the observations he had heard. The
Noble Lord's colleague opposite had said that the Church
of Ireland was by means settled satisfactory to him ; and
he presumed that it was thought that if this Municipal
Corporation question was disposed of, that that would
have the effect of conciliating the great mass of persons
whom he desired to conciliate ; but If he would refer to
the Precursor's ticket, he would find that the Church was
only a sixth of what they asked for. The first thing they
desired was a complete similarity of suffrage with Eng-
land, and that that suffrage in England should be carried to
its furthest point. The next point was the ballot ; then
came the Church, and a total extinction of tithes, and all
other compulsory Ecclesiastical charges, whether called
rent charge, cr by any other name. Why, there were
meetings of tens of thousands of people since the
Bill was brought forward last Session in reference to that
Church at which it had been declared things were now in
a worse state than ever ; and these were the ultimate and
practical measures which the House had to look forward to
for agitation. The Noble Lord had spoken of 9
identifies-
'han but the Hon. Member for Dublin had informed them
1,•,
in hen
what the identification aimed at was. He
se
had then gene on to state that the great object
gair ealSttolemtehoatt
aimed at was 3y y supposed
d b e f
an the Union.
all that had been
of those questions was only 1`..2 lead to this, that they were
now to embark on a sea of agitai:: on more extensive and
ch
more interminable than ever, and wt.:j was only to be
determined by a severance of Ireland fro. 7, this country.
He had understood his lion. Friend opposite to say that
he was as desirous as any man for the exclusion of secta-
rian feeling, at the election of Poor-law guardians ; but
there had just been an election at Limerick, where the
people had refused to select the men of property, and in-
sisted upon electing men of extreme political feelings—
politics represented by the Hon. Member for Dublin. It
mattered not how low in station, how low in property these
men might be—it was enough that they were violent_ po-
litical men—enough that they had joined in the cry of
Precursor's
re-
peal—enough that they had joined in the
.oFaeocurts
town
ticket. What would be said of any persons f itwol2, o
in England, if ia the Church the namesl
%stangd up and say,
read over, and persons were then
sons proposed to be elected Poor-lacy ouardiansy were
so-and-so ; and if
elect the Quaker, but elect M. r.t
to
don't elect the Dissenter, don't elect the Baptist, don't
ou that there arc pe-
jed to that, we throw out a bin
Deities reserved for you more seyvere than even the law
itself—( Cheers).
could not concur in the objec-
b the Hon. Member who
tions which bad been raised y
'
Mr. W. S. O BRIEN
had just sat down, against the election which had just
ofLimerick. Roman Catholics than of Protes-
greater proportion o
taken place in. There was undoubtedly a
but, having bad an oppor-
tunity of personally .g
tants chosen at that election,
observing the elections throughout
Limerick, he did not think it possible to point out an
objectionable choice. As large a proportion of Protes-
tants had been chosen as, probably, their state of pro-
perty and other circumstances admitted of. He saw

the list for Limerick, and he did not believe there swot
single Roman Catholic on that list, and underneath the ris' '
W 23 Unifier), " Vote for the friends of the poor."
occasion, hid it not been said by the
Sir R. INGLIS said, he should notyhoahvleerLiseonrduoppoptiotsbitiea.,
that he was pledged to tl.e extinction and destruction of.
the Corporations of Ireland. He was not so
he would always object to be considered pledged tO any
such proposition. He would not, off-hl,nd, consent to the
extinction of Corporations either in England or Ireland
\Vhcn he reflected upon the purpose for which those Cor.:
porations were instituted, be considered that every friend,
of the country, whether in reference to England or Irelaitd
was hound to give them every due consideration that.
their importance required, whenever they became the
their
subject of investigation. The argument meant this., Ms.
by the creation of municipalities, they woul Ireland'°
the hands of what were cailed.the people of e a
Pledged, and
the
great legal power, and what that legal power was,
Hon. Member for Dublin would tell the House. He,
for
one would never consent to place any such power in °I
such hands. Though ho should not divide the House, I
vet he refused to concur to be ranked with those who
vid- i
liegly allowed themselves to be considered as assenting to
th,. destruction of Corporations.
Lord J RUSSELL said it seemed hcrdly ne.,cegsV..
for him to address the House on the subject of the Lvitin,l-t
pal Corporations, as the House seemed disposed to eurw
the proposition of his Noble Friend. But as the Poer",!°,
had been adverted to, he would allude to an elee%,-,t
which had lately taken place in Ireland. It seemed t"',
there had been a great political struggle at that electio.nt
the one party seemed to think that they. had sustained:
a grey
triumph great defeat, and the other that they had achieved
triumph in the result. It appeared that in another Pad
of the country about equally from each party ail
the different religious sects had been fairly rePre"
stinted in the choice of their Poor-law Guardians.
Now, that was an election which ought ton aa:
example- (Hear, hear)—and which he hoped wou '',,,
followed as an example in other parts of Ireland.--(getto
Lear.) Although there had been a great struggle at
00
election. in Limerick, he was happy to say that if
teatl
evil consequences had been expected to result from d
struggle, no such consequence had occurred ; and he found
that those persons who. had been elected,
political bias, had shown no disposition to act °thew*, e.
than in the most proper manner, and according to the enter'
counts that he had received he had every reason to en,erin
tain a hope that they would have no reason to COMPI!Lti.
pOll
of the elections front any interference on account of
cal feeling. biolf
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said a few words w
were not distinctly audible in the gallery. I tea"
Mr. BARR ON would ask the Right Hon. Gcnt-c.,10
if during the fifty years that a Roman Catholic was elighie
to became a rnetnbar of a Corporation. there was,!, single
,
instance of a Catholic having been elected? 1 rug rr°l
even of str
.s _
yoked the other side, from a very natural recollection of
that circumstance. Did they think the people, under ad
the insults that had been put upon them for a centtlrYZ!nu,
a-11..1f, were they at once to forget and forgive everytub'3s
that bed passed? They themselves had shown thin% to
example, they ought to be the first to set an exam,r, :ale
show that the law had been altered, and that now a" rao '
sons in Ireland were placed upon an equality. ft Wes 0,
imperative duty to meet those people in terms of LretTeir
ciliation, and not to be eternally taunting them with ds•
wish for retaliation, as naturally existing in their ill'a.ce
The Hon. Member fur Kilmarnock said he woulEngland,
to to Ireland the same laws in this respect as to i„,O,
and Scotland, because a Society, in the first-named 6.-tsie
try, claimed certain other privileges, and put forth eelrsTao,
rn.-aures of agitation, as he stated them to be. sci. et'
this was as though we were to refuse a certain law Oh as
land, because some people of that country met tog
they met, and were sitting together in Parliament ° u 00
don at this very moment. Every case ought to beg et !gel
its own merits. ' It was an absurd argument for any Peal tp
to make use of that we were not to grant this refbrunia
Ireland, because certain people there called out for flier's
versal Suffrage, or for the Ballot • and it was no argtbad
against granting to the people of Ireland what tbed if
granted to the people of Scotland and of Englall.o take
they meant to do away with agitation, they oughtf that
no notice of this Society or the other Society, but "ici they
which was proper, and not that which was unjust. ' nte,
wished to grant that which had been granted to other Pe"`did
they must the manfully pass this measure. If theirigbt
not come forward with clean hands, they had °,° t de'
to bring that as an argument against granting the J'.1.5,001a
mends of the Irish people For this reason they '' 101-
pass over the argument of the Hon. Member for soh
marnock ; he thought it their duty to pass °ee
l; open
sophisms. It had not been his intention to sl' Ibe
this subject, but when every one, with the exceee ;lief
believed an Hon. Baronet, agreed on granting thing
to Ireland, he hoped what he had said would do °oting
towards enabling them to see the necessity of sea oleo)
the people of that country equal rights, and to Idaeo right
on an equality with the people of England in eve
for the
and every privilege they enjoyed. He hoped that pre'
purpose of doing this they would throw aside had Met
judicc, and meet the people of Ireland as they "-oatri'
the people of Scotland after the union with that ee ble
raise°
He hoped they would no more hear those •- 'louse'
taunts that had too often been used
The law had abrogated all religious distinction'te'd iii
hoped all such distinctions would also be abr Sintbe
in this
.. he
this House. Treat them with charity, and it Or iiite tbe
lost, he was sure, on a generous and brave ?OP° --
Irish. 0)00'
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN, in supported the wore
gave a detail of some transactions of a punialitoliff,
between himself and the Corporation of the City of :v Wel'
at the time of the Lord iiieutenancy of the Marquis coo'
lesley, when he, with some-parties with whom he v!!" f tilt
nected, proceeded against that body for the recover!, „°d cle'
sumb of 17,000/., for a portion of which they
.reeev' 00
uenndteurrsetosoodr,bfoonrdtsh,etoH bo en
T. phNaeiidecmforborm monies arising goof s '''°
and indistinct manner, declined
rent of certain lands.
ceedings were taken upon them in the Rolls' .14 be
swho decreed in favour of the claim, but fen °I e °r
bonds, he stated he should get nothing
come.—( A laugh,) His intention was to give
aid, had no securitY; but for these ee to
etporo Corporation oktnhe
the
ifubt eoar tn vydausrr, dyas
niroprori oro.ta:
for fivnecoti.:o:afga:i
motionT connected with this subject, in the following, eve°
sums
shoatf
mthoenreeybearlaanidtebdeafotraelathteismHeeotuinsegaofretbtueroorpio.rosrpatteioda,
of the City of Dublin, stating to whom they vre,r,e the b 9
and whether for any official duties, too-ether wit' -
laws or authorities by which the same was done- ,e dr'
jid.
waseco
different
ffet.
te,i.rrs e-o
nlmL
ultimately
some
TveTryONmissataidknhastt,atienmceonntsneheatdionbe
evitiitbbrotilhibet,boehl
I. the House, and gave some explanations tiPMI sid et
e p statede rio d
siici thatuai
llda t
es
de thatver a( l
Ht
the
sumsea Hear,
whole
b bohei aea dr ,
ohf be ee the.°fal.
hPi dbeili .
should not have taken part in the debate, if ea,
notL been able to negative the statements of the _ll the
b
Learned Gentleman. Before he brought forteald be/
recollected statement , theHo
himselfu;
and
dd
he
eesahrnoeetlid Gentleman beehea°: abialotwbeej.
to bring forward, as the existing state of thisigs, 9
fa the eiello e
occurred five or six years ago. With respect - bunua-C,,
ral questions before the House, there would be anoav Pr"..
of discussion to-morrow, and he, for one, would pot
not On
htruatcliiet.
to Htheosweowulhdoaswseerret
olpiopowseevdertotu .t.:::9la•zetoie,°;.°9,
, that, ~.bStit , 410
the bodies proposed by the present measure, In P d the l'ilt,
old corporations, that the want of happiness, ar'it 0. sa
cord existing in Ireland, was to be attributed. (V
cries
stabolef so,leilyHtooar,the
hear,agitators
heaor,f,,that the sos
from
that sne 0,
benches)—who, seeking to a man by •0 off tea
the objects of mere bad ambition, and u.n aeeessleode o y
tical power, cared not what sacrifice they Illgory (PP
couritrl.' Tod
happiness of the people in its achievement.
the grog tir,
sure emanating from that House was mad!' t'e o bad 9 e
complaint by ill-minded agitators for their ow HO '
•n that f Ire'
poses. The Poor-laws had been passed ilee t°
and the House of Lords, as a benefit to the peooPprietoqb:
land, as a means of compelling the landed Pi.or es. tof
tchoentcrihbuutrech—to the sustentation of the poorer e-- the Psr fits
tithe questionon.ooo oftiv-g,
aw afsars egreaterttl e dby
cession
great
tbau cessionbe,
to
1,
tvifieo;r,
friends, would have wished, inasmuch as it t°°„.-4P!-00,
five per cent, from the income of the clerginciliatt
to
hear, hear)--still it was a measure
and he (Mr. Litton) thought it would eeN, soo of
L the happiness of the people of Ireland- r,„ 01;0%6
°f cotrihttt_e oer
was the Session ended, however, than in eveglet on tea
the country meetings were held, and agitatioelects of "uot
for the purpose of neutralizing the good %pie aged the
measure, and of exciting the minds of the Pe., Dort they
the clergy. Nay, the very men who had trrts,Aoo
that,
Poor-law question in that House, the fi l'o Bland,
got to Ireland to denounce it.—( Hear, hear.'s Of Ire' 10
in his judgment, was attributable the misfortune
,i, oil
and to those who, for their own bad pure
00 lit
I allow Ireland to be at peace. ~ vr art OP,
Mr. M. J. O'CotINELL and Mr. H. Lig."'" k tbe ,e 0 oi
the same time. The former said he wished wne (or)
and Learned Gentleman opposite a question% bst
id I
" Order.") A pryer a' it:d.
Mr. GRATTAN explained. He had
had P 1,, lie
securities had not been given, but no cash li.i
siteolgv.
Mr. LITTON—Cash was ultimately Pal' titine 1
all'i
admitted that other securities had: been eubs
( Hear, hear.) Non' tee
Learned Member to name the parties whO ", dente
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL requested tead adaoepecd
the Poor-laws in that House and had afterwaros 0)
~ No. ~e
them ? ,-. • of s'
Mr. LITTON could name them. —(-irles,suid nos., ion
Mr. REDINGTON hoped the House vv,`,,atienic,or.
the assertions of the Hon. and Learned Lred tee ,1 Apa
facts. He was one of those who had suelM2,lo flon..tigh
law Bill, and he had since supported it. 1" so tbvlo
Learned Member for Dublin bad opposed it! ,agoeeeZoo
it was well known that he had a vast deal o"her 0 neo
Ireland, be defied the Hon. and Learned Mem et t° for
ccive it in the spirit they ought. The Hon".atotient'or
that lie had done anything to excite the peoplemneober for
Meath, it now appeared, was correct in his Irishsantiation
it was admitted by the Hon. and Learned Ge °thee ,e,)
posite that he was nee paid in cash, but in of
flotitia
security.—( Loud laughter from both sides of !;07pliedispla,
He hoped after this the gouse would not Plaectleman °Pa to
in the assertions of the Hon. and Learned Gel'e begge sill
1' reef last
bite. With regard to the preeent question
be allowed to express his grmat satisfaction teat
too oi ire,
now before the House so far ex•ce,eded the mecausple
aideof of
year, and was so much more like e what the
e other -r
••• •
; land had a right to expect. He warned th . t
, slate e' bei
P ntbee lre-
the House that it was useless for then" tO lefile.ss
than two
. land if they attempted to satisfy them .
wti,th borough with
were justly entitled to. He hoped
t_ .e iv dealt
e.
which he was connected would be more ft!iell's we the
in the present, than it had been in the press 'eft that t°
i
, Mr. LITTON would again distinctly as6hen given
debt alluded to had been paid.—Leave w siii
, bring in the Bill. •
,?15- tele/
Lord MAHON then rose to move• " they, I.,„zifarin_,,,
: pf controverted elections the objects of jusrt.i.eue
_root.c'.ed
CONTROVERTED ELECTIO ,a the t,
y,
i , and dispatch would be best attained by a t thllos.lslrea
• , sistin,g of Members of Parliament." When lie,e di°, 0.
Friend the
on the subject, above all his Right Hon. the weight and authority of those from whom "' Ne
_..----------"'"

t----

f

ber
Wh(
r

ticoa"
,ligibl°
singk

at
rod—on,
tic .5 01
(C/10

said sata ;'
d,
11 P 51,, be
bougcLee•
itutc

tfiyal,
".",ot t'red
meg"
he

i