The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-30 00:00:00

lieved to be most Ldvan'ageous to the public service,
—the responsibility and the duty of Ministers became
a perfect mockery.—(Hear, hear.)—The Noble Lord
had said that the Committee of Finance had a right to
reject the opinion of the Duke of Wellington. He ad-
mitted that they had, and be hoped at the same time the
Noble Lord would concede to Ministers the right of differ-
ing from the Committee, and of submitting to Parliament
what they conceived to be best for the public service.—
Hear.)—And who were the individuals who enterta ned
the opinion that the continuance of the office in dispute
would tend to promote the public service ? They were
those who had followed up the example set by their prede-
cessors, and who, having filled the office of Master-Gene-
ral, had been constantly occupied in endeavours to reduce
the expenditure of the establishment. None had laboured
with more zeal and greater success in this way than the
Duke of Wellington, who, during the period when he
was Master-General, was so far from manifesting a dispo-
sition to encourage superfluous expense, that the Ordnance
Estimates had been reduced in amount by 1,000,0001. ; and
there never was a case in which so much unnecessary esta-
blishment had been reduced, and so much patronage lost to
the Government.—(Hear.)—Much had been said with re-
spect to the discontinuance of the Finance Committee, but
he was sure that many of those gentlt-men who regretted
its non-existence thought that Government were more able
to examine thoroughly into the different departments of
the State, and propose reduction. Indeed, a Finance
Committee, in consequence of its being unable to examine
into details, might become an authority to Government
for expenditure rather than reduction.--(Hear, hear,
hear.)—Among the recommendations of the Finance
Committee was one, that inquiry should be prosecuted
by the Government, as they could do more than any
Finance Committee. Had the Government disregarded that
recommendation? They had shown every respect to the
Committee of Finance, and since it had closed its labours
great reductions had been made in the Civil Establish-
ments of the Ordnance, as advised by the Committee. By
the labour of officers in that department reductions had
been effected to the extent of 27,8001. Further reductions
to the amount of 4,500/. were in contemplation, and would
be carried into effectbefore the next estimates were brought
forward. Having stated these facts, he was relieved from
the necessity of saying any thing on the charge which had
been brought against the Government, of treating the Fi-
nance Committee with disrespect. The Committee had
not been continued, in order that Government might
themselves examine into every department of the State. It
was not, therefore, from any desire on the part of the Go-
vernment to shrink from inquiry, but from a desire to un-
dertake inquiry, that the Committee was not re-appointed.
The Hon. Gentleman had said that there was some incon-
sistency in his (Mr. Peel's) declining to adopt the recom-
mendation of the Finance Committee with respect to the
office of Lieutenant-General, when he showed himself so
strict an advocate for the Treasurership of the Navy. But
this Hon. Gentleman must see that his argument partook
of a fallacy. The Hon. Baronet proposed a vote of con-
demnation against the Government for retaining the office
of Treasurer of the Navy with a salary of 2,0001. a-year.
His (Mr. Peel's) argument was, that it was not fair to
visit the Government with a vote of condemnation, when
fley adopted the recommendation of the Finance Com-
mittee, which was the only guide from which they could
I.atn what was the opinion of the House. By adopting
that recommendation of the Committee he showed no in-
consistency between the course he was now pursuing and
that which he pursued on a former occasion. Since the dis-
cussion in 1823, the House had not adverted to the saving
of expenditure effected in the Ordnance Department and
the additional duties imposed. Since that period the
comptroller of the barracks, with a salary of 1,500/., had
been abolished, and by the duties, which had been trans-
ferred to the Ordnance Department, a saving of 4,6801.
had been effected. The duties of Lieutenant-General were
various. They related to the Recruiting Department to
the Examination of Cadets, and other subjects. The Hon.
Baronet had said that in the present distressed state of the
country, the Lieut.-General, being a useless officer, ought
to be dismissed. If he were a useless officer, be ought to
be dismissed at any time, whether the country was dis-
tressed or not ; but if, by dismissing him, the efficiency of
the service would be impaired, the Government would
not be justified in abolishing the office in order to court
popularity in a time of distress.—(Hear, bear.)—The
question for the House to consider was, whether or not the
office was a proper one. But the Hon. Baronet inferred,
that Government defended the present vote on the ground
of preserving the influence of the Crown in that House,
and had accused him of casting a longing eye to the times
of Sir Robert Walpole and Mr. Pelham, when two hun-
dred-and-eeventy, servants of the Government filled the
benches of that Houle. The Hon. Baronet had expressed
an opinion in favour 'of a return to those good old times,
and he (Mr. Peel) had only referred to them to show what
was the state of the influence of the Crown in the House
at that time. The Hon. Baronet said this office was
maintained for the purpose of increasing the influence of
the Clown. In enumerating the illustrious names of
those who had filled the calumniated office of Lieutenant-
General of the Ordnance, he appealed to the House to
decide, whether these appointments were more likely to
have been the result of a desire to court-tbe favor of Par
liamentary influence, or from a desire to enlist in the
military service during times of peace, those officers
who had rendered themselves most conspicuous by
their exertions and character during war.—(Hear,
bear.).....When the office became vacant in 1522, the
first offer of it was made to Lord Hopetoun. The objec-
tion to that situation is, that it- was accompanied, as his
Lordship was told, with incessant labour, and almost per-
petual residence in London. On these grounds Lord
Uopetoun refused the situation. The next officer to whom
;t was offered on the same conditions, and by whom it
was on the same grounds refused, was Lord Hill. The
third offer was made to Lord Beresford, and accepted.—
On its resignation by that Noble Lord, it was filled for a
short time by his Right Hon. Friend, Sir George Murray,
whose exertions in war, and whose glorious campaigns had
so greatly distinguished him.—(Hear, hear.) When the
office was resigned by him, it was offered to Sir Wm.
Cliuton, who soon after retired.—(Laughter). He was
surprised at the sneer and laugh of Hon. Gentlemen with
respect to what he had said of the retirement of Sir Wm.
Clinton ; but he was not now called upon to defend the
exercise of the prerogative of the Crown, in the removal
of any of its servants. He thought he had heard enough
of the necessity of an unanimous Government. He thought
he had heard enough of this in the case of those who voted
on the measure of last year, when, if his Majesty's Minis-
ters had been defeated by those who opposed that measure,
they would have heard enough of the weaknesss of the
Government in allowing itself to be so. But to return to
the point from which his attention had been for a moment
diverted it had been said that this office was filled
by men of great family and much parliamentary in.
finance; but he thought it was rather a subject of con-
gratulation that the best blood of England should have
been shed in those fields of glory where its honour
had been so bravely asserted, and if such men had so
distinguished themselves, was the fact of their con-
nection with high and noble families to deprive them
of their well-earned reward ?---(Hear, hear.) Mise-
rable, indeed, would be the reward of those Hon. and
Gallant Officers, if, after all their great services, his
Noble Friend at the head of the Government were to say to
ow* men as Lord Hopetoun, Lord Hill, Lord Somerset,
end those others of his gallant companions in arms,—
"'Tis true you have distinguished yourself by most heroic
efforts in the service of your country—'tis true you have,
in times of peril, appeared as the intrepid asserters of her
honour-26s true you are entitled to reward, and are emi-
nently qualified to be placed in a situation where your
country may derive still farther benefit by your military
skill,—but it is also true, that you are descended of great
families, connected with much parliamentary influence,
and I must not recommend you to an office of which you
are every way so worthy, lest I should incur a sneer at
having made the recommendation with a view to that in-
fluence." Such language would be unworthy of his Noble
Friend, and unworthy of the country in whose service he
and his gallant companions so honourably distinguished
themselves. In conclusion, the Right Hon. Gentleman
expressed a hope that the vote of that night would not
have the effect of declaring that this office was kept not
tor a reward for military merit, and be had not put it on
that ground, but was retained for the purpose of the in-
fluence which might be gained by a single vote.—(Hear.)
Mr. C. GRANT said that hie Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Peel) had himself fallen into the error of which he had ac-
cused his Hon. Friend the Member for Cumberland, who
brought forward this motion. In the speech with which
he had just favoured the House, his Right Hon. Friend had
drawn their attention to any thing rather than to the par-
ticular question on which they were to be called upon to
vote.—(Hear.)—His Right Hon. Friend had mixed up a
great variety of topics, but with no little ingenuity had left
out of his consideration a:together the utility of this office.
What did his Right Hon. Friend's speech consist of?—an
introduction of the four finance reports—an account of pen..
sions and superannuations—an eulogium on the Noble Duke
at the head of the Government, in the justice of which be
fully concurred—a panegyrie on the gallant feats of those
distinguished officers who held this office in the Ordnance,
or to whom it was offered, and a dissertation on the ad-
vantages of a united cabinet.—(Hear.l—But if his Right
Hon. Friend found a united government so necessary as
to feel warraiated in dismissing a gallant officer from his

situation for an expression of an opinion opposed to 1
that government on one great measure, why had certain
persons in civil situations been allowed to remain to
struggle against that measure? He (Mr. Grant)
admitted the great and valuable services of those dis-
tinguished officers whose names had been mentioned in
connexion with this situation ; but he must say, that those
illustrious names had not been fairly dealt with in coupling
them with a useless place, and in exposing them to some
share of the obloquy which must reflect on them from a
connexion with such office. He must protest against the
tone which had been assumed in the course of this debate
(he did not say by his Right Hon. Friend Mr. Peel), as
if it were a matter of extravagant presumption in any man
whose brows were not covered with laurels to dispute the
authority of the Duke of Wellington on this question.
He (Mr. Grant) had a very high respect for the authority
of the Noble Duke, and also for that of the Hon. and
Gallant Secretary at War, but the House was here called
upon to act for itself, and should not be influenced by the
dictum of any man, however deservedly high his charac-
ter. The Noble Duke at the head of the Government could
not do otherwise than submit the matter for the opinion of
the House, and he hoped that opinion would be pronounced,
in resistance to that tone in which the House was ad-
dressed on the subject. It was in evidence before them,
and no man had pretended to controvert the fact, that
the business of the Ordnance might be performed by one
assiduous person. No doubt a Lieutenant-General was
found useful when the head of the office was absent—when,

for instance, the Duke of Marlborough was at Blenheim—
when Lord Cornwallis was acting as Lord-Lieutenant of

Ireland—the attention of a Lieutenant-General was re-
quired, and found very useful in the absence of the princi-
pal ; and at the very time when the office was offered to
Lord Hopetoun, the Noble Duke at the head of the office
was engaged on an important diplomatic mission abroad.
They had, then, the authority of the Finance Committee,
supported by that of the Military Commission of 1822,
for saying that one person could discharge the business of
the office ; but they had, in addition, this important fact,
that for 14 months the gallant officer who held the office of
Lieutenant-General was engaged in the command of the
army at Lisbon.—(Hear.) What became during this time
of that vast detail of important business which the Lieu-
tenant was daily to superintend—of the thousands of pen-
sions to be paid—of the 3,000 or 4,000 persons atWoolwich,
and ether places,whom he was obliged to know personally,
and to be in daily communication with ? What became of
all these during that long period of absence? Why to vote,
after these facts, that the office of Lt.-General of the Ord-
nance was necessary, would be as much in the face of com-
mon sense, and against the evidence of facts, as was the reso •
lution which voted that a 11. note and Is. were equal in
value to a golden guinea, at a moment when every man in
the country was convinced of the reverse. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then went on to contend that this ques-
tion derived great importance, not so much from its nomi-
nal amount, as from the present situation of the country.
They had heard much of public opinion. Never was
there a time when it was more fully brought to bear upon
that House. Such was the diffusion of knowledge and the
communication of intelligence, that scarcely was any vote
of importance carried in that House when it was discussed
and canvassed in every part of the country—not merely
amongst the higher and those who were usually termed
the enlightened, but amongst the lower and now not less
enlightened class of the community. But beyond this
the House had already made for itself a strong impression
in the good opinion of the country. It had forced consider..
able reductions of taxation on the Government; would it
not be strange, then, particularly after the memorable vote
of Friday evening, that it should now refuse to do its duty
where a similar principle was involved? Let him also
remind them that they were in a short time to have under
their consideration the superannuation. If, in the dis-
charge of their duty, they should feel obliged to press hard
upon a very valuable set of public servants—the clerks in
public departments—would it not be inconsistent to allow
themselves on this night to be turned round by the in-
. .

fluence which the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance
could throw round him.--(Hear, hear.)

Colonel WOOD contended that his Right Hon. Friend
who spoke last had not proved that this office was unneces-
sary. Great stress had been laid on the opinion of the Fi-

nance Committee ; but the evidence of that Committee

and their report was printed, and the House had already
twice decided upon the question of the Lieut.-Generalship
of the Ordnance by a large majority; on one occasion he
believed, by 200 and odd to 92. This was decided the
year before last ; but last it was passed once, and if it were

not considered as a useful office, it would not have escaped
the vigilance of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. It was
said, the situation of the country was now changed, and
that it was in great distress. He regretted that distress
as much as any man, but he was glad to say that it was
fast disappearing, and that things were rapidly improving.
—(A cry of " Where?")—lds would not be led into a
discussion different from that before the House; but in
reply to the interrogation of the Hon. Member he would
say, the improvement was found in a place where it wou'd
be sensibly felt by the agricultural interest—he meant
Mark-lane.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber then went to contend that questions of the greatest im-
portance to the country were delayed by such discussions
as the present, which, in amount of saving, could be no
sensible value to the country. He trusted, however, that
after Easter, when these questions came to be discussed the
benches would be as fully attended as at present.
Mr. C. W. WYNN contended that the true principle of
economy was that which gave an efficient performance of
the public service. The public service required the as-
sistance of the Lieutenant-Gneneral of the Ordnance. This
had been decided by the opinions of all those who held the
office, and who were best acquainted with its duties. It
was true the Lieutenant-General was at one time absent
for fourteen months, but it did not follow, that because the
duty of an office was performed by others for a time in the
absence of the party who held it, the office was therefore
unnecessary. The duty of First Lord of the Treasury was
for a time, in the administration of Mr. Fox, performed
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but was that a rea-
son why the office should be abolished ? Thinking the
office necessary for the due performance of the Ordnance
Department, he should adhere to the votes he gave on this
subject in 1820 and Is2B.
Sir J. GRAHAM, i❑ reply, said, that if the argutnent
of the Hon. and Gallant Member (Colonel Wood) were
correct as to the high price of corn, it was an additional
reason why no unnecessary place should be kept up, be-
cause the great pressure on the people arose from high
prices of necessaries and the low rate of wages. After
the able answer given by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. C.
Grant) to the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Peel), be would not detain the House, but he would
revert briefly to one or two points in the discussion. He
had not expected that the forbearance of himself, and
those who acted with him, in not having brought
forward any measure last year of a party nature that
could in any degree tend to weaken Ministers, would
have been construed into an approval of measures
which they (the Opposition) had before opposed. As
to the cashiering of Sir William Clinton—for so he
would call it—the term used for which, by the Right
Honourable Gentleman, had called forth his cheer, he
must say, that though he liked a united and a strong
Government, he should also like to see it a bold and a just
Government; and he could not apply either term to the
present administration in reference to their treatment
of that Gallant Officer, and the difference between it and
the conduct they held to others. The Attorney-General
of that day was dismissed because he acted openly and boldly
against the measures of the Government. Sir W. Clin•
ton's offence was in not having voted at all ; but there were
others, and he had no objection to state who they were—
the Chief Commissioner• of Woods and Forests, the Judge
Advocate-General, the Secretary of the hoard of Control,
and some others, were allowed to oppose the Government,
and to continue in their places.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
Baronet then proceeded to argue th ►t the Board of Ord-
nance was differently constituted now from what it was a
few years ago, and that therefore there was a much stronger
reason for the assertion that the business could be super-
intended by the Master-General without the aid of a Lieu-
tenant-General. He did not bring forward this motion
with a view of attacking the Government; on the con-
trary, he wished to see the Government strong ; but to be
strong it must pay a deference to public opinion. He
would contend that it could only exist by the support of
public opinion.—(Hear.) He would contend that they
must reform abuses, instead of keeping them up for the
purposes of Parliamentary influence. The danger they ran
in doing so was this,—that the time would come when the
public would see only the abuse, and instead of amending
would altogether abate what they considered a nuisance.
Mr. PEEL and Sir H. HARDINCE severally explained.

The Committee then divided, when the numbers were.
. _ _. _ . .

For the Amendment, 124 f Against it, 200 I Majority, 76
The original resolution was then put and carried.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at One o'clock.

On Friday last the body of a man was found
Upon the top of a hill in the parish of Edderton, who it is
supposed must have been (lead for ten or fourteen days
before the discovery was made. He had a strange aver-
sion
to enter a dwelling-house, and never would take shel-
ter in any place, unless he was forced to do so. It is sup-
posed that he must have perished from the inclemency of
the weather and from hunger,winvernese Courier.

PRICES OF STOCKS THIS
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3 per Cent. Cons. ......92%%y4
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------
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