The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-23 00:00:00

h

is immediate discharge. I assure you that it has given perfect
satisfaction to every person in this country whom I have heard
speak upon the subject :—.M'Guire was found at an illicit still.
When the police came, he got in his boat and rowed into the
middle of the river under a heavy fire from the police. When he
got to the middle of the river, thinking he was out of the reach
of the fire, he stopped and mocked at the officers, and fired at
them in derision. A ball struck him, and he was wounded.
He was tried and convicted, and sentenced to seven years'
transportation. The case was considered a very hard one, and
a memorial praying for a mitigation of the sentence was for-
warded to the Lord Lieutenant. This memorial was signed
by fourteen or fifteen of the most respectable magistrates and
a number of the most respectable inhabitants of Loughshelan,
and the sentence was commuted to two years' imprisonment.
On the occasion of the Lord Lieutenant's visit to the gaol at
Cavan, after he had gone through all the wards, the surgeon
of the gaol requested the writer of this letter to mention to
his Excellency the cases of two persons who were confined
in the hospital. He (Mr. Sanderson) accordingly did so,
and on mentioning the case of Patrick Maguire the Lord
Lieutenant surprised him by his accurate recollection of the
facts of the case, and declined to interfere. However, the
surgeon represented that Maguire was in a very bad state,
suffring from an unhealthy wound, and that his continu-
Lice in confinement might be dangerous to him. His Ex-
cellency, on the joint entreaty of him (Mr. Sanderson) and the
other Magistrates present, consented to his release, to the
perfect satisfaction of every person whom he had heard speak
of the matter in that part of the country. The second case was
that of a person tried for homicide, but who had been proved to
be insane. He stated that he was then well, but as life had
been lost in this case the Lord Lieutenant refused to interfere.
Now he (Lord Clements) would ask the House whether the
letter of so respectable an individual as this was not better au-
thority, and more to be relied on, than those anonymous letters
which the Learned Sergeant had read to the House ?—( Mi-
nisterial cheers.) The Learned Sergeant had also alluded
to what had taken place in the county of Leitrim, and he
would ask the Learned Gentleman whether his informant
was not Mr. Potter ? Now, with respect to the Irish Go-
vernment, be would give his Noble Friend opposite full
credit for his intentions whilst Secretary for Ireland ; but
he certainly meant no imputation on his Noble Friend
(Lord F. Egerton) when he said that at no former period was
the same activity used by the police and local authorities to
put down disturbance as at present. He was happy to state
that the peace of the country had considerably improved. He
was in the county of Cavan immediately before the Assizes,
and there were only five prisoners for trial. The Learned
Sergeant had alluded to the outrage committed on the Rev.
Mr. Hogg. He ( Lord Clements) was fully aware of the
facts of that outrage, for he was the second magistrate on the
spot after the outrage was committed, and his exertions had
received the thanks of the Rev. Mr. Hogg, who was his per-
sonal friend. He had exerted himself to bring to justice the
parties who had committed this outrage, but they had not
been discovered. To him the peace o the country was as
important as to any other man, for he lived in the country
in a house without fire-arms, and no attempt had ever been
made to intimidate him in the discharge of his duty as a magi-
:trate.—( Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to Mr. Potter, he
wa, introduced into the county by the late Rector of Clune,
who employed him as a tithe-proctor ; but his conduct was
the cause of continual disagreement between the Rector and
11:s parishioners. At present the living of Chine was occu-
pi ,d by the Rev. Mr. Trench, who was so dissatisfied with
Mr. Putter's conduct that he diatnissed him. lie, then, from
being a tithe-proctor, joined the anti-tithe agitation. One
party said that the tithe-proctors were the cause of all the dis
turhance iu Ireland; another party said that the agitators
were the cau es of the disturbance ; but it was the peculiar
advantage of this individual that he belonged to both parties.
Now, he was also an attorney, and in his professional capacity
hod prosecuted a Protestant gentleman for having been, as he
alleged, connected with this outrage, and as an accessory to
this burning. The Learned Sergeant had alluded to the con-
duct of juries in Ireland. He supposed that if the Tories
cause into office they would appoint those men to place in
Ireland who would resort to the old system of packing ju-
ries —(Hear, hear.) The prejudice in Ireland had for-
merly been so great that the opposite party were never per-
fectly satisfied with any jury unless a packed jury. The Noble
Lord mentioned that, in an affray between the people and the
revenue police, where a conotryman was killed, the officer of
police was anxious that the Coroner's jury should be empan-
ndled front a neighbouring parish. Though there was great
etc tement he (Lord Clements) recommended that the jury
should be empannelled on the spot, and that jury found a ver
idiet of justifiable homicide. This verdict gave satisfaction to
all parties. It was contended on the other side, that to grant
Corporations to Ireland would he to subvert the Established
ttrarch. Now he did not see what corinectiea there was be-
t woe,' those Corporations and the Established Church. In the
General Association of Ireland they had never said that this
wowed injure the Established Church. The most they had
said .;as that this measure would lead to a satisfactory adjust-
nn-,,t of the Tithe question. He (Lord Clements) maintained
th tt the passing of this Bill could have no effect whatever
pia.judicial to the Established Church. The Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamwa,rth had denied that the
13;11 would pacify Ireland. Now, he was very far from
saying that it would.—( Hear, hear, hear.) All he said
,/as, that it would go a great way towards that e :d; but then
he begged the Right lion, Baronet, and the Hon. Gentleman
on his tide of the House, to understand that he would not ac-
cept it as a boon, but only as a right.—( Hear, hear.) lie
at.3o thought that the system of Poor-laws which his Noble
Frumd had proposed would in like manner tend to the pacifi-
cator; of Ireland ; but he was very far from saying that either
the one measure or the other would in themselves produce
that result. The Right Hon. Baronet had asked lion. Mem-
bers on that side of the House where they meant to stop ; but
lie would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, and those who sat
on his side of the House, where they meant to stop ?—( Cries
of •• Ilear, hear," from the Ministerial Benches.) There
could be no doubt that the people of Ireland were not anxious
to :tee things remain in statu quo. The present state of
things could not continue without a species of coercion that
must produce civil war ; and he should like to know whether
the people of England would support the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite in refusing the people of Ireland their civil rights when
such must be the consequence ?—(llear.)
Lord F. EGERTON, in explanation, said that his Noble
Friend had misconceived or misunderstood the tenor of the
observations which lie had made with respect to fair and fac-
tion feuds. He had not said a word as to whether these things
were incurable pr not, or whether the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land had either cured or failed to cure them. He had merely
referred to the effect which it had been said the Catholic Asso-
ciation and the present Association had in putting such feuds
down, and drew inferences from thence.

Lord CLEMENTS replied that what he meant to sav
wai that, so far as the putting a stop to fair and faction feuds
was concerned, the pacification in these respects had been ef-
fected, not by the Association, not by the Hon.' and Learned
Member for Kilkenny, but by the firm conduct of the Lord
Lieutenant, the Irish Attorney-General, and the police.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON, in explanation, said that the
Noble Lord was perfectly right in supposing that the name of
the person whose letter he read the previous night was Potter.
Ho understood from one of the Hon. Members for Meath that
Mr. Potter was an attorney, and a gentleman whose commu-
nication might be relied on, and therefore he did not hesitate
to use it, believing, as he did, that the facts stated in it could
be verified if an opportunity for the purpose were given.—
( ar, hear.)

Mr. ROBINSON: said that since the last year he had held
close communication with his constituents, and he believed
he spoko the sentiments not only of the majority of them,
but of the majority of the people of England and Scotland,
when he declared that they did take a deep interest in the
question, and were anything but indisposed to grant to the
people of Ireland what they considered their just and legi-
timate rights. The Union between the two countries, he
thought, entitled the people of Ireland to an equality of rights
with the people of England and of Scotland; and for his
part lie was wholly at a loss to understand the distinction
which the opposers of this measure had drawn, or the grounds
on which municipal institutions were to be denied to the Irish
towns.—( Hear, hear.) They had been told that the exist-
ence of the present Administration depended on the decision
of that House upon this question. He had never given a de-
cided support to any Government; but certainly he had given
to his Majesty's present Ministers a general support, because
they had evinced a determination not to yied to the unreason-
able demands of the democracy, or to adopt the principles of
the lion. Gentlemen who occupied the Opposition benches,
who were desirous of governing the many—the people of
,England—for the benefit of the few.—(Loud cries of No, no,
and Oh, oh, from the Opposition benches, and of Hear, hear,
from the Ministerial benches.)
Mr. RICHARDS denied that the Hon. Member for Wor-
cester was justified in attributing such motives to Hon. Gen-
tlemen who sat on that side of the House.—(Cries of Hear,
hear, Oh, oh, and Order, order.)
Mr. ROBINSON saw something like an expression of ex-
ultation on the part of the Hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition
benches at what they considered the near approach of the dis-
solution of the Melbourne Administration, but he would ask
those Hon. Gentlemen, even supposing such an event were to
happen, whether they thought any other Government that
might succeed to office could go on with the Catholics of Ire-
land, and a large majority of the people of this country and
of Scotland, against them ?—( Hear, hear.) He knew what
Vie feeling of the country was upon this important subject, and
he could therefore tell them that there was no question which
w -mid be more fatal to them as a party than this.—( Hear.)
Jie was a member of the Established Church, and anxious to
support it ; but at the same time he could not concnr
with the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire in
thinking that granting municipal institutions to Ireland would
be the means of subverting that Church. He regretted ex-
ceedingly that any one of the King's subjects should possess
such influence as it was said the Hon. and Learned Member
for Kilkenny possessed; but then he thought his indiscretion
in avowing that if he got Municipal Reform he would carry
aP his other measures was no reason for rejecting this Bill.—
(Rear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was mis-
take.a if he imagined for one moment that the people of this
enuatry and of Scotland would ever allow him to re-establish
Catholic dominion on the ruins of the Protestant Church in
Ireland ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear," in which Mr. O'Connell
joined.) The Tithe question had done much to render the
Church as unpopular in Ireland, and the only effect which the
amendment of the Noble Lord could have, would be to in-
crease that odium. The only way in which the Roman Catho-
lics could be conciliated was by a union of interests, and, as
1,1 conceived that this measure would have that tendency, he
sitta uld give the motion for the second reading of this Bill his
sin c, .re and hearty support.—( Hear.)
fr. RICH AR D S denied that the Hen. Member for Wor-
cestc r etas at all justified in attributing to Hon. Gentlemen at
that ;ids' of the House such a motive as that of wishing to
govern'the; many for the advantage of the few.—(Hear.) The

Noble Lord the Member for Leitrim had replied to the facts
stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Youghal, but had
he disproved any of those facts ? ( Hear.) If the desire were
to ascertain whether these facts were true or false, why not
grant the committee for which the Hon. and Learned Member
for Youghal called? He was anxious, however, to discuss
this question on its broad principles. The Noble Lord, the
Member for Leitrim, stated that the people of Ireland were
entitled to equal rights with the people of this country and of
Scotland. No one doubted that ; but then the question
was, were not the circumstances of Ireland such as to
render it unsafe to grant municipal institutions to that
country ? It was notorious that there was in this country a
struggle between two great principles—the influence arising
from property and the democratic influence—and he would ask
whether the latter influence had not been considerably augment-
ed by the change which had taken place in the English cor-
porations ? It was by means of the democratic power that
many of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite occupied seats in that
House, and on that same power it was that his Majesty's
Ministers relied for their continuance in office. It had been
said that there was no connection between this question and
that relating to the Established Church. He entertained a
very different opinion ; and therefore, believing that this
measure, if carried, would tend to the subversion of the
Church, he felt it his bounden and sacred duty to oppose it.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Kil-
kenny might be sincere in wishing the welfare of his country,
but as he (Mr. Richards) did not think that object could be
attained by the course which the Hon. and Learned Member
pursued, he must express it as his opinion that this Bill would
place a most dangerous power in his hands.—(Hear.) The
Hon. Member for Worcester had said that the people of
Worcester were in favour of granting Municipal Corporations
to Ireland. Now he (Mr. Richards) was well acquainted
with that county, and, knowing, as he did, the feeling that
prevailed there, he must deny the fact to be so. He might
make the same observations generally with respect to the
people of England and of Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord the Member for Leitrim thought that this Bill
would tend to the pacification of Ireland. No doubt it might
satisfy certain parties in that country; but from his acquaint-
ance with the state of Ireland he could undertake to say that
whatever might be its tendency, it would not be of a pacific
character. He had never yet found that the lust for all was
satisfied by the concession of apart. On the contrary, ambition
was a passion that grew with what it fed upon ; and if these
corporations were put into the hands of the majority, they would
be used as a lever for the attainnsent of universal dominion in
Ireland. The Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard had
on a former night spoken, in periods most elaborately worded,
of the extraordinary virtues of municipal institutions —of
the occupation they would give the inhabitants in paving
and lighting their streets. That Honourable Member also
gave one of the oddest illustrations lie (Mr. Richards)
had ever heard—he said that the state of Ireland was un-
tranquil, and that these corporations would give the people of
that country something to think about, and draw them off from
their present quarrels. Now he (Mr. Richards) could not
understand why this should be. If the power was now abused
by the minority, how much more likely was it to be abused by
the majority.—( A laugh from Mr. O'Connell.) It was sin-
gular the similarity that there was between the speeches of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard and those of Danton,
Marat; and Robespierre, at the time of the French Revolution.
They, too, talked of the advantages of municipal institutions,
and of the harmlessness of their intentions in demanding
them. Yet what was the result ?—( Hear, hear.) What
had they ready to substitute, when they bad pulled
down all the present institutions of the country ? Neither
Danton, nor Marat, nor Robespierre knew what to substitute
when they did the same thing.—( Hear.)
Mr. C. N. WALKER understood the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down to allege, as a reason for refusing free
institutions to Ireland, that England was now in possession of
them. But be rose to protest against the assumption that
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because they entertained Conser-
vative principles, were the representatives of the Protestants of
Ireland. It was said that to grant these municipal corpora-
tions would be to open the door to the unjust predominance of
the majority. The town which he had the honour to represent,
however, the town of Wexford, afforded conclusive evidence to
the contrary. That place was next to Belfast in commercial
importance. In the first instance it had been a corporation,
in which there was no distinction as regarded rights between
persons of different creeds. Then came the days of exclusion,
and the Catholics were fur years excluded from the exercise
of all their municipal rights. But, about nine years since, it
was thrown open to the inhabitants generally, without any
distinction of religion or property qualification. The
proportion then was of about file Catholics to one Pro-
testant ; so that power lay entirely in the bands of the
former. Now what had been the course of their conduct ?
To five vacancies that had occurred in tire burgesses, three
Catholics had been ( lected and two Protestants. The first
elected was a. Protestant. Next they were about to choose
another Protestant—himself. But lie recommended them not
to do so, and rather to choose a Catholic, as the Catholics
had been so long excluded, and there were so many Catholic
merchants of great respectability resident in the town. The
reply he received was, that religion made no dif-
ference, and that fitness for the office was the only con-
sideration that operated with them. Then, out of
nine mayors elected since the opening of the corporation,
only three were Roman Catholics, while at least three Pro-
testants of high Orange and Conservative principles were
elected during the same interval. And even after the insult
cast upon the Roman Catholics, by the expressions used in
mother place-a-expressions calculated to rouse their indig-
aation and to induce them, if any would, to forfeit their inte-
grity and impartiality—the mayor selected for the present
year was not only a high Conservative, hut one of those gen-
tlemen who had attended the great Dublin Conservative Meet-
sing the other day. Again, out of IS bailiffs (or sheriffs)
appointed in Wexford during the nine years, three only were
Roman Catholics; and the bailiffs of the old Tory Corpora-
tion were retained after it had been thrown open. Now he
(Mr. Walker) thought that one fact was better than many
prophecies.—( Hear.) He hoped the statement he had made
would have its weight with Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Ile
could further assure them that in Wexford the Protestant and
Catholic Clergy were on the most harmonious footing ; that
they went hand in band in the search for objects of charity.
For a short time it was possible that political exasperation
might continue--but lie was decidedly of opinion that, ere
long, it would totally subside, if this Bill were passed into
a law.

Sir F. TRENCH had to congratulate the lion. Member
who had just sat down on being the representative of such a
town as he had described. It certainly seemed to constitute a
brilliant exception to the general state of Ireland. The Noble
Lord the Member for Leitrim, had challenged any person
to show that a connection existed between the claims of
the Irish people to municipal rights, and the Protestant
Church in Ireland. He ( Sir F. Trench), for one, was not
ashamed to acknowledge himself bigot enough to apprehend
that danger threatened the Protestant Church from the mea-
sure then before the House, and that it was thereby intended
to deliver that Church into the hands of the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny. The Hon. Member for Liskeard had, in the
course of the debate, delivered a very eloquent speech, in
which he insisted strongly on certain general principles. But
those principles, though just in themselves, were not applicable
in the present instance. The case of Ireland was a peculiar
one, and demanded a peculiar treatment. The Noble Lord at
the head of the Home Department had, in introducing the
measure then under discussion, spoken in very slighting terms
of the state of the Protestant clergy in Ireland, and in place of
pitying the condition to which they were reduced, had spoken
of them with what he ( Sir F. Trench) considered an unbe-
coming levity ; and, instead of suggesting some means of alle-
viating their condition, he quoted a trifling poem, to the effect
that they were enamoured of their present lot. His Majesty's
Attorney-General, when out of office, when speaking of Ire-
land, had used language which had tended to promote the assas-
sination of the Protestant Clergy in Ireland, and yet, after
having used such language he had been promoted to his pre-
sent high office. It was on the debate on the Irish Church,
which took place on the 2d of April, 1835. The Attorney-
General then said—" What benefit is conferred on a Christian
community by erecting Churches which are a grievance to one
set of believers and an insult to the other? Such was the
state of feeling in Scotland that at the time of the assassina-
tion of Archbishop Sharpe, that assassination was actually ap-
proved by the majority of the people." This was a pretty
broad hint, he thought, to the people of Ireland.—( Cries
of " Oh, oh !" from the Ministerial side of the House.)
But this was not all. The Honourable Gentleman pro-
ceeded still further, and alluded openly to Ireland :
There was nothing done in Ireland to compare with that
assassination, and yet it was a common observation by the
people of Scotland that the killing of the Archbishop was
' no murder,' he being of a religion opposed to the majority
of the people." Surely after such language as that which he
had just quoted, the present Government must have had some
strong motives for promoting the Hon. Gentleman to the
office which he now held. The next passage was—" The
scenes that occurred there were of a more aggravated cha-
racter than those lately witnessed at Carrickshock or Rathcor-
mack. More blood flowed at Drumclog and Bothwell Brigg.
This House ought to reduce the Establishment to such a de-
gree as may be adequate to the wants of those who professed
Protestant Episcopalian faith in Ireland." Such was the lan-
guage of the Attorney-General, and it did not require any
legal knowledge, or any ingenious special pleading, to draw
the inference that the reading of such passages ought to pro-
duce the very worst effects on the people of Ireland. He
conceived the Government to be nothing more than the in-
strument of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny—( Hear)—and,
as such, completely under the influence of that Hon. Gentle-
man's wishes.

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down had made a discovery of the passage
from the speech of the Attorney-General, which had been
spoken two years ago. It was unfortunate that time had not
been afforded to his constituents to consider the meaning of
the passage ; as, if they had done so, they might have taxed
him on the hustings with uttering such language, and, perhaps
have refused to return him to Parliament in conjunction with
the Right Hon. Gentleman in the chair. There was but one
single question to be considered, and on it two species of ar-
guments had been adduced. Of these some were old, others
new, and they were easily distinguished from each other.
The old arguments were those which had been used last year
against the Bill—the new consisted of other topics, which
had been hut lightly, if at all, touched upon before. The
first was, that the Protestant Church of Ireland was in dan-
zer. The second was, that agitation in Ireland had not ceased
by the concessions which had been already made. And the
Third was, that the Government had not made use of their
patronage in a satisfactory mariner. In this last argument
there was certainly something of novelty, for no such imputa-
tion had aver before been made against any other Govern-
ment. No one, he would venture to assert, could allege
against the Tory party that they had ever bestowed their pa-

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 1837.

tronage on any other than their own political partisans.—
( Hear.) Their conduct on such occasions reminded him of the
line of the satirist—

" Dat veniam corvis, vexat censura columbas."

Much had been spoken against the appointment of Mr. Pigott;
but it had not been shown that that gentleman was unworthy of
the situation in which he had been placed. Mr. Pigott was a
gentleman whose qualifications would do honour to any situa-
tion. He was a man of first-rate education, and had had his
faculties sharpened and polished in the exercise of his profes-
sion. He possessed an eloquence of the highest order, and
delivered the noblest sentiments in the most grammatical lan-
guage. Any constituency might be proud to have him for their
Representative. So much for Mr. Pigott's attainments. As
to the difference which it was said existed between the Orange
Association and the National Association, of which Mr. Pigott
was a member, he would state the words in which the Orange
body was properly described. It was stated to be " a secret
political society, which excluded all persons of a different
faith, and using secret signs and symbols." From meet-
ings of the Orange body the Press had been always ex-
cluded, and their proceedings had always shunned the
light.—(Hear, hear.) On the other hand, if the mem-
bers of the National Association occasionally made use of warm
language, still all their proceedings were in the face of day,
open to public observation, and noted down by the reporters
of the public press ; and if anything illegal took place the
power of the law was sufficient to punish the violation of any
of its enactments. The existence of the National Association
had been adduced as an argument against the measure then
under discussion. If the National Association had not
been formed, would it not have been asserted by the Gentle-
men opposite that the Irish people were tame and indifferent to
the measure, and unworthy of the right they now claimed ?
( Hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for North Lanca-
shire, had argued, that from the paucity of petitions presented
from Ireland in favour of Municipal Reform, it might be in-
ferred that the people of that country were indifferent to the
measure. The Noble Lord made no allowance for the dis-
tance between Ireland and this country, nor did he make any
allusion to the fact that forty had been presented on Monday
(the day on which he spoke), 36 yesterday, and a great num-
ber to-day.—( Loud laughter from all parts of the House.)
In a book on the state of Egypt he had read an anecdote, from
which the lion. Gentlemen opposite might have drawn their
arguments. The writer of the book visited Mahomed Ali,
and in the course of the interview that Chieftain inquired par-
ticularly about the British Parliament. The subject of elec-
tions seemed to puzzle him, and he inquired if such men
as pleased the electors could be returned.' He was an-
swered in the affirmative. The next day he informed the
traveller " that he had been pleased with the idea of having
a Parliament, and would adopt the plan ; but, in order to
obviate any inconvenience, lie had determined himself to draw
up a list of those who should be elected, and he would elect
them himself."--(A laugh.) The Hon. Gentlemen opposite
wished to treat Ireland as Mahomed Ali did Egypt, and no
longer permit it to be a free country. They would on every
occasion put a check on Reform, and of course now on Muni-
cipal Reform.—( Hear.) The Gentlemen opposite were en-
deavouring to excite agitation by an appeal against the reli-
gion of the people of Ireland. The Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Cumberland had openly expressed his detestation of
Popery and tyranny ; the press were also proceeding in the
same unholy course; and he lately saw a journal which was
looked on as a chief supporter of the Tory cause declare
itself in a most indecent manner while speaking of the late
promotions to the Peerage. The Hon. Gentlemen opposite
were trying to renew the plan pursued in 1827, 1828, and
1829 ; they might now again raise the cry of " No Popery ;"
but how did they not know that the day might not come when
the cry of " No Dissenter" should be raised ?—( Loud cheers.)
He called on the House not to wait for that time, but at once
to pass the measure then under discussion.—( Cheers.)
Mr. GROVE PRICE said, the Hon. Gentleman who last
addressed the House had thought proper to indulge in some
sarcastic allusions to those on his (Mr. Price's) side of the
House who opposed the Reform Bill. For himself, he would
say that he too had ever been the open, and undisguised, and
conscientious opponent of that measure up to the period at
which it was carried. Indeed, so strenuous was his opposition
to that question that he would have willingly resigned his life
if by such a sacrifice he could have prevented its accomplish-
ment.—( Cheers.) But the moment that question was settled
—the moment the fiat of the Legislature had declared it law_
from that moment he had used his honest and best exertions to
carry out the principle into practical effect. The able, ele.
quent, and elaborate speeches of his Hon. and Learned Friends
the Members fur Bandon and of the University of Dublin
rendered it unnecessary for him to touch upon topics connected
with the Administration of Lord Nlialgrave in Ireland, which
otherwise he might have been induced to do. He would not,
therefore, dwell further on this point, except to say that the
statements of his lion. Friends were well deserving of the
serious attention of that House and the country. He im-
plored the House to recollect that they were called upon to
decide on a great question, and that decision, if once made in
favour of democracy, could never be reseireled.—( Hear, hear.)
—Who could deny that this was a stepping-stone to other
measures, of a more serious and dangerous character; or who
could tell (if lie might quote from Shakspeare) whether it was
to bring " airs from heaven or blasts from bell."—( Ilear.)---
From his experience he could say, that this measure of muni-
pal reform had been a firebrand in the domestic circle in every
town in England, and had roused into action all the angry
passions which had so long been permitted to slumber.—
(" Nu, no.") He (Mr. Price) repeated this assertion,
and what would be the consequence if they invested
towns in Ireland with a power like this—a country where
a bigotted and intolerant Priesthood reigned paramount and
influenced every political movement? Would not the muni-
cipal elections be determined by their dictation, and under such
a domination who could answer for the safety of the Church
or any other of the institutions of the country.—( Hear. )—A
Noble Lord on the opposite side had expressed a wish that
the Clergy of all religious denominations should abstain from
interfering in elections. In this wish he (Mr. Price) most
cordially concurred, but. at the same time, lie was bound to
say, after eighteen years' experience of English elections, he,
never knew an instance, except in three cases, where a clergy-
man of the Church of England had overstepped those legiti-
mate bounds which a moderate country gentleman might pre-
scribe to himself.—( Hear.) Could this be said of the Roman
Catholic Clergy of Ireland ?—( Mr. O'Connell, as we under-
stood, said " Yes.") The cry of "Justice for Ireland " was
the watchword of a faction ; and, if by justice to Ireland was
meant its tranquillity and happiness, they would not do justice
to the people of that country, if they sanctioned the present
measure.

Mr. WOULFE had received a letter from a Noble Lord,
whose name had been introduced in the course of this debate
by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bandon, requesting
him (Mr. Woulfe) to explain some matters referred to by that
Honourable and Learned Gentleman. He felt he was called
on, in justice to Lord Miltown, the nobleman referred to, to
give this explanation. The Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man had stated that Lord Miltown had been dismissed from
the magistracy, or had resigned the commission of the peace
to avoid dismissal, in consequence of his having attended and
spoken at meetings held for the purpose of resisting the pay-
ment of tithes. Now how stood the facts ? Lord Miltown
never attended a tithe meeting but one, and at that meeting he
exhorted the people to pay tithes so long as they were a legal
impost.—( Hear, and cheers.) The fact was, the Noble Lord
had a personal interest in giving this advice, for he was him-
self a lay impropriator of no less than seven parishes, and
from this source he derived a considerable portion of his pro-
perty. So much for the charge of anti-tithe agitation brought
against the Noble Lord. It was not therefore on this ground
that he resigned the commission of the peace, but in conse-
quence of an intimation he received, that he could not consis-
tently hold that commission so long as he continued a mem-
ber of a society called the " Volunteer Association."—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) That Association had dissolved itself,
and was no longer in existence.—( Renewed cheering.) Did
Honourable Members intimate by those cheers that to have
once belonged to an objectionable Association should dis-
qualify a person from holding the commission of the peace?
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If so, did they apply the same
rule to Orange Societies ? Those Societies had voluntarily
dissolved themselves, and so had the Volunteer Association.
Why, therefore, should not the same rule be applied to both ?
—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He supposed it was meant
to intimate by those cheers that the Volunteer Association had
arisen again under a new name.— (Hear.) But were there no
successors to the Orange lodges?—( Cheers.) Were there no
new confederations on the old principle ? Let it also be re-
membered that the Volunteer Association dissolved itself when
the objects for which it contended had been obtained. But the
Orange Societies did not dissolve themselves until they had
been declared illegal. So much for the portion of the state-
ment which referred to Lord Miltown's dismissal. Now, how
stood the fact with regard to his re-appointment ? It had been
stated that his restoration took place after he had become a
Member of the Genera/ Association. The very contrary was
the fact—he was re-invested with the commission of the peace
long before he became a member of that Society.—( Cheers.)
It was, therefore, not true that he was dismissed for attending
an anti-tithe meeting, or restored for joining the Association.
—(hear, hear.) It had been stated—(and the car of the
House had been grossly abused by the statement).—that Mr.
O'Loghlin laid down a rule by which the right of the
Crown to challenge jurors had been abandoned. On behalf
of his Right Hon. Friend he distinctly denied that allegation.
—( Cheers.) He (Mr. Woulfe) had been recently in com-
munication with the Crown Solicitors on the subject of Crown
prosecutions, and his directions to them were, not to give up
the right of the Crown to challenge, but that jurors should
not be objected to because they might happen to be Catholics
or Protestants, and that the exercise of this right should be
confined to cases where good grounds of legal objection might
exist. In other cases, too, where there might not exist legal
grounds of challenge, the direction was to exercise the power
where there was any rational ground of objection to the juror.
—( Hear.) This course was adopted to prevent any capri-
cious exercise of the power, and instructions were given to
the Crown Solicitor to take a note of, and report, every in-
stance in which the power of challenging was exercised on
other than legal grounds.—(Cheers.) That such a mode of
proceeding was wise and discreet few would be found to deny.
As to what bad been said of convicts sitting on juries, if it so
occurred it was because the directions given had not been
complied with ; and, indeed, it was almost impossible that
cases of inadvertence should not sometimes occur.—( Hear.)
With respect to the case of Mr. Pigott, who it was said was
a member of the General Association, he would admit that that
Gentleman bad been a member of the Association for a short
time.—( Opposition cheers.) He did not use the phrase " a
short time " by way of apology for Mr. Pigott.—( Ministerial
cheers, and counter- cheers. ): lie merely stated the fact that
Mr. Pigott was a member before he accepted the situation of
law adviser in the Secretary's office ; tut on accepting that
situation he thought it right to be so no longer.—( Opposition
cheers.) He did not, however, leave the Association because
Of its illegality.—(Ministerial cheers.) He quitted it be-

cause, knowing it to be the offspring of popular emotion and
popular feeling, he did not think it fitting that a person hold-
ing ajudicial situation—( Ministerial cheers and counter-cheers)
—yes, with an instinctive sense, with a delicate perception of
propriety, Mr. Pigott thought it right that a person placed in
his position should shrink from a connection with any as-
sociation which, however legal in itself, could by any pos-
sibility be supposed to be illegal by any person whatso-
ever.—( Renewed Ministerial cheers.) Though he would re-
peat Mr. Pigott did not himself think the Association illegal,
he thought it was but a proper respect paid to the Administra-
tion of justice that all persons connected with the Ministry
should withdraw from it.—( Hear, hear.) ,The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had asked what would the Government
say if they had to put a case before Mr. Pigott as to the lega-
lity of the National Association? Now he (Mr. Woulfe) had
been grossly misinformed if there did not exist in Ireland ano-
ther Association called the Lay Association, which was bound
in confederacy, both of persons and purses, to carry on a vex-
atious and expensive litigation with respect to suits in which
they were not personally interested—(Ministerial cheers).—
namely, the recovering of sums due to the owners of Tithes.
Mr. Sergeant JACK SON was here understood to express
dissent.

Mr. WO ULFE was glad to hear his Hon. Friend's dis-
claimer. He had thought that there was such an Associa-
tion ; and he further thought that his Hon. and Learned
Friend belonged to it. He was glad to hear that such was not
the fact.--( Cheers and laughter.) He would, however, as-
sume hypothetically the existence of such an Association, and
that a member of it was charged with the crime of maintenance.
He would suppose this to take place after a change had been
made in the Government. He would further suppose that
there were many legal gentlemen connected with this hypo-
thetical Lay Association, and that the Lord Lieutenant ap-
pointed by the new Administration, selected one of these to
fill the office which Mr. Pigott now held, and that the charge
of maintenance against the member of the Lay Association
should come before this officer. How, in that case, would the
Government act ? The answer which the Learned Sergeant
would give to him (Mr. Woulfe) on this question, the same
answer would he make to the Learned Sergeant.—(Ministe-
rial cheers.) One Association was at least as legal as the
other—with this difference, that the one existed—if not the
same, at least extremely similar--for several years ; and it was
the opinion of a high legal authority, that it was an Associa-
tion which could not be reached by common or statute law.—
(Cheers from the Irish Members.) The other had not been
so tested yet, but perhaps it would soon be tried.—( Hear,
hear.) He would now come to that which was the proper
topic. The fundamental objection made against the proposi-
tion of the Noble Lord (J. Russell) by Hon. Members on the
other side of the House was, that it would have the effect of
transferring the municipal powers in Ireland from the hands
of Protestants into those of Roman Catholics. The proposed
measure would not transfer power from the hands of the Pro-
testants of Ireland. He did not wish to speak harshly, but he
would say, in the language of Mr. Fox—language which had
been used before in the course of the debate—that, instead of
taking power from the hands of the Protestants of Ireland, it
would only take it from those of a miserable monopoly—from
a small faction—who as effectually excluded from their body
Protestant wealth and intelligence as they did Roman Catho-
lics. When the Duke of Wellington introducod the Eman-
cipation Bill into the other House at the same time that it was
introduced into the House of Commons by the Right Hon.
Baronet for Tamworth, they both argued that it,lsad the sup-
port of the great mass of Protestant wealth and intelligence in
Ireland. To support this assertion they went into several sta-
tistical details, and in his ( Mr. Woulfe's) opinion they did so
successfully. These details also showed that the great mass
of the municipal bodies in Ireland were arrayed against the
measure. This showed, then, that the corporate bodies in
Ireland were not identified with the Protestants of that coun-
try.—( Loud Ministerial cheers.) The effect would be not to
vivo power to Catholics or Protestants, but to the people of
Ireland.—( Ministerial cheers.) It would attsch power to a civil
qualification, and confer it on the persons so qualified.—( Hear. )
it would give to the Catholic de facto no more than he was de
jure entitled to, and it would give to the Protestants no less.
There was a gross exaggeration as to the portion which would
be enjoyed by Roman Catholics. He did not impute any
wilful exaggeration ; but he wondered how ally one could
venture such an assertion who knew how numerous and
wealthy the Protestants were in large towns, such as Dublin,
Waterford, and Cork. In other country parts the Catholics
were as six to one or four to one ; but in cities the proportion
was far more favourable to the Protestants. It was curious to
observe the different representations made to that House as to
the power of the Catholic body when different purposes were
to be answered. At one time when civil power was proposed
to be given, the cry was—" Oh, you should not argue this
question on abstract principles, and apart front the consi-
deration of what is fit and expedient. You should nut, in the
present circumstances of Ireland, confide so vast a power to so
overwhelming a body."—( Hear, hear, hear.) But when
the feeling of the Catholics were to be outraged, when
their just wants were to be overlooked, and their just claims
denied to them, why then this vast body was a tiling of insig-
nificance, easily kept.—( Cheers.) He would, however, take
still higher ground. If a fair principle were to be acted upon
in the distribution of corporate power, a much larger propor-
tion should fall to the Catholics than to the Protestants, and
to deny their rights on this ground would be a gross violation
of the Act of Union as well as of the Emancipation
(Ministerial cheers.) He did not mean to argue the question,
whether the power conferred over the Legislature in England
and in Scotland by means of their municipal bodies was or was
not, greater than it should be ; but he would ask why should
power be conferred on those countries which was withheld from
Ireland ? The dissimilarity of the laws as regarded England
and Ireland had been urged as an argument. Similarity of
laws was no provision of the Act of Union. Not alone would
the Act of Union be violated by acceding to the measure of
the Noble Lord (F. Egerton), but the principle of the Eman-
cipation Act would also be grossly departed from. The Noble
Lord ( Stanley) argued that in consequence of their religion
Catholics should be refused the right to direct their own
domestic concerns, and an attempt had been made to re-
concile this assertion with the principle of the Eman-
cipation Bill. It was said that the object of that Bill
was to equalize all classes in Ireland, and such, it was
argued, would be the effect of the proposition for doing
away with all municipal rights in Ireland. The dis-
tinction here, however, was obvious. The principle of the
Emancipation Bill was the enjoyment of equal rights, whilst
the principle of the Noble Lord (F. Egerton) was the in-
fliction of equal wrong.—( Ministerial cheers.) The principle
of the Relief Bill was to distribute civil power equally
amongst all, whilst that of the Noble Lord's measure was an
equal destruction of those rights. They were, in fact, the
antipodes of each other. No two things could be more dis-
similar.--( Hear.) It was easy enough to conceive how those
who had been the steadfast opponents of the Emancipation
Bill could resist the measure of the Noble Lord ( Russell),
and on the same grounds, namely, that the granting of power
to Roman Catholics should be guarded against : but those who
were favourable to that measure departed from their own prin.
ciple in opposing the Bill of the Noble Lord. Even the op-
ponents of Catholic Emancipation departed in some degree
from their own principle in supporting the instruction of the
Noble Lord the Member for South Lancashire. Their principle
was that Protestants should possess power, and that Catholics
should not. The object of the Noble Lord was that power
should be possessed by neither party.—(Ministerial cheers.)
Had the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth acted upon this
principle in 1829 it would have saved him from the diffi-
culties with which he was than beset. He was afraid the Ca-
tholics would abuse the power which they sought ; and yet he
Was compelled to grant it, notwithstanding his misgivings.
Why did not the Right Hon. Baronet then adopt the plan of
the Noble Lord the Member for South Lancashire, and, in-
stead of conferring the power on one party, take it away from
the other ? (Cheers.) This would have been the more safe
proceeding, according to the opinions expressed by Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the opposite side. But this principle was not
known to the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth ; it was a new
fangled doctrine, and he defied the House to open the page of
this country's history, and show a single instance where the
civil rights of a nation were destroyed because they had been
abused by a party. It was not only at variance with the
Emancipation Bill but with the whole constitutional system
of this country. If Catholics were unworthy of corporate
power let them be deprived of it, but why should the
Protestants of Ireland suffer for their crime ? It was a
new principle in the code of laws and the history of this coun-
try, that civil power, denied to one party because of their reli-
gious creed, should be totally destroyed in consequence of the
misdeeds of one party or the other. To spoliate the Protestant
of his rights because they could not be entrusted to the Catho-
lic, would be no gratification to the latter. The Catholic
would prefer a thousand times to see municipal rights in ex-
istence, though confined to the Protestants, if founded on a
fair and popular basis, than see them destroyed altogether.—
(Ministerial cheers.) Though by that course wrong would
be sustained by the Catholic, and the Act of Union violated,
still it would be Yn no greater degree than by the present pro-
position.—( Hear.) For his own part, he had always sup-
ported the Act of Union, because he believed, if properly and
fairly acted upon, its essence was, that both countries should be
treated alike, and each receive as much attention as the other ;
that the feelings, the will, the passions, and, if they pleased,
the prejudices of each should be alike attended to. How could
any man in Ireland be disposed to support the Union? In
England a Corporation Bill was given which was denied in
Ireland, not because Ireland had no local rights to attend to,
but because it would endanger the safety of the Irish Church.
He never knew an Irish question brought forward that some ill-
advised friend did not get up and use that argument. It had
been used as much against the Dissenter as against the Catholic.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after demanding that the
house should yield to the just claims of the Irish people, con-
cluded by apologising for having trespassed so long on their time,
and imploring those who were anxious to support the connection
between the two countries to show that disposition by their vote
in the Imperial Legislature, and furnish the best arguments and
assistance in their power in favour of the measure.—( Cheers. )
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the vital importance of
the subject compelled him to address the House, however un-
willing. Sectarian and almost bigot as he was now deemed
to be by those on the other side of the House—although he
had been a firm and consistent supporter of the Catholic claims
_he could not but congratulate the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman on his appointment by his Majesty's Government to the
post he then held, and the right to which he had so well sus-
tained by the ability of the speech he had just delivered. He
had said that he considered the subject had derived increased
importance from that speech. He thought he had not mis-
understood it, and he did consider that the subject had de-
rived great importance from the fact of the King's Attorney-
General having declared that unless the Bill was passed for
the Reform of the Municipal institutions, he would cease to
defend the Union between England and Ireland.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.)

Mr. WOULFE said that the words he had used were, that
he should cease to be able to defend with effect the Union.

Sir J. GRAHAM did not think the fine-drawn legal subtle-
ties—( Hear, hear)—of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
would have much effect in disabusing the House from the ef-
fect those words conveyed. The people of Ireland might
now be able to understand the ominous nature of the question
propounded, since in the speech of the King's Attorney-Ge-
neral they were told that the union between England and Ire-
land could no longer be maintained to be defensible.--( Loud
cheers from the Opposition.) His objection to the passing
the measure now before the House was the present state of
Ireland. Crimination and recrimination had been been ban-
died about with respect to that condition. It was averred
that the National Association was dangerous, and, in reply,
they were told of the proceedings of the Lay Association.
They were told also that the Orange Lodges, put down last
year, had revived, in the form of another Association ; but, by
the way of a passing counnent, he would remark that the
proceedings of the National Association, which had received
the countenance and support of his Majesty's Ministers, were
avowedly directed against the laws ; while those of the Lay
Association, opposed by his Majesty's Ministers,' were for the
purpose of maintaining it.—(Cheers.) Now, it had suited
the purpose of the Honouarable and Learned Gentleman that
evening not to enter into the details of the charges brought
against the Government, he having been content to meet them
with a general sweeping denial. But that was the way those
charges had been met by the Noble Lord the Secretary for
Ireland? The Noble Lord had attempted to answer the
charges, but what answer had he given to the case of Mr. Cas-
sidy ? (Cries of " Oh," from the Irish Members.) What
answer had been given to the letters read since the speech of
the Noble Lord, of Lord de Vesci and Lord Oxmantown ?
What to the fact of the gaol delivery of the Lord Lieutenant,
in which no less than sixty-nine persons were released in three
counties? He would come now to the point most important
in this question, and that was the appointment of Mr. Pigott.
(Cries of " Oh," from the Irish Members.) He contended
that it was a fact most important to the understanding of this
question ; and how stood the case with respect to Mr. Pigott?
He acted with more sense of his duty towards the Association
than His Majesty's Ministers ; for the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman had thought proper to retire, while His Majesty's Go-
vernment indulged in no such scruples.
Lord J. RUSSELL made some remark with respect to
Mr. Pigott, which we could not hear.
Sir J. GRAHAM resumed, and said that the Noble Lord
would have a future opportunity of correcting him if he stated
anything incorrectly. Mr. Pigott, it seemed, had thought it
decent and proper to retire from the National Association at
the time of his appointment. He would not attach great im-
portance to the precise date of the communication which was
made of the offer of the appointment. If the offer of the
appointment had been made before the resignation of Mr.
Pigott, why, then the excuse was a mere subterfuge, and the
original charge remained untouched.—(Cheers.) 'fhe fact
was evident, that his Majesty's Ministers had selected to fill
the office of greatest importance to the Crown, as legal adviser
to the Lord Lieutenant, a person the most useful and influen-
tial in the National Association. And let the House not for-
get the vacancy that was made for the purpose. Who was now
the first Sergeant in Ireland, and who possessed until lately the
confidence of his Majesty's Ministers ? Why was he not
chosen instead of a gentleman totally unknown, and of no pro-
fessional reputation, to be made Solicitor-General ? Why was
this done but for the express purpose of creating a vacancy ?
—( Cries of " Hear.") In the speech of the Noble Lord
the Secretary at War (Lord Howick) he had proposed two
questions of great importance with considerable perspicuity
and force. The first was a question inquiring why the subject
was put forward as dangerous to the Church of Ireland. The
second was, how municipal institutions endangered the Irish
Church. The Attorney-General answered the questions not
in a very courteous way, by declaring that it was all cant.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, in a speech distin-
guished for ability, had called the introduction of the subject
of the Church a hobgoblin phantom of a fanatical fancy.
Another Hon. Member had declared that its introduction was
a party trick, coming from that side of the House. As to the
insinuation, that the introduction of the question of the Irish
Church into this discussion was made to be a stepping-stone
to power he should not reply to it.--( Ironical cheers from the
Ministerial side.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath
had spoken of the harlot Church of England, as established in
Ireland, being the greatest enormity existing in Europe.
Mr. ROE BUCK—I said the harlot Church of Ireland.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM begged to remind the Hon. and
Learned Member, whose legal accuracy and general preci-
sion were well known, that the Church of England was
the same as the Church of Ireland.—(The conclusion of this
sentence was lost amid the loud cries of the Ministerial
benches.) The Hon. and Learned Member would excuse
him if he interpreted the Church of England to be the
same as the Church of Ireland. However, that did not bear
upon the question. But it was that harlot Church of Ireland
which he had declared to be the greatest enormity in Europe.
The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire ( Lord
Stanley) had noticed a remarkable fact, that the questions of
tithes and municipal institutions were invariably mixed up in
the same petition. This was not the result of accident, but
arse from an instruction of the National Association, as could
be proved by a speech of the lion. and Learned Gentleman
the Member for Tipperary (Mr. Sheil), whom he was glad to
see in his place.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh," from
the Irish benches.) The speech he alluded to had been deli-
vered in the Coburg Gardens, when it was said that seven
millions was to be the talismanic word which was to frighten
this country into granting municipal institutions. The Right
Hon. Baronet then read an extract from the speech, in which
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that the people of
Ireland " must and shall" have municipal institutions, and con-
nected this subject with that of tithes.—(The words of the quo-
tation were lost from the loud cries of "Bar,"iand "Order.") The
Right lion. Baronet then continued, that to establish the con-
nection of the two quotations more closely than even the
speeches of the Hon. Members for Liskeard, for Bath, and
for Tipperary, he would beg the House to remember the im-
portant declaration made by the Hon. and Learned Member
for Kilkenny, in which he said " Let me get the Whigs to
a certain point, and I will drag them the rest of the way."—
(Cheers.) In that speech the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had proclaimed his support of the voluntary principle, the se-
paration of the Church and State, of household suffrage, of
vote by ballot, of the expulsion of the Bishops from the
House of Lords, and of an organic change in the House of
Lords itself. And in that speech he summed up this enume-
ration by saying, " Give me but Municipal Reform, and I will
effect all the rest." Thus, then, was the connection of the two
questions established. The Reform Bill of Earl Grey was
specific and finite, and was in that respect alone very
different from the present, which had avowedly an ulterior ob-
ject in view. The Right Honourable Baronet then read
an extract from a speech of Earl Grey's, to the effect that it
was only by conducting the Government on safe and mode-
rate principles that he could expect to carry it on, and by
a careful attention to the settled institutions of Church and
State : adding, that upon no other principles could an Admi-
nistration be conducted with advantage or safety. What, too,
had been the declaration of the Noble Earl a few days before
his Government had been broken up? This occurred on the
6th Junc, 1834, when the Noble Earl said that he wished to
see Reform carried to the fullest extent that the abuses and
necessities required, and he would appeal to their Lordships
and to the judgment of the country whether any attempt had
been manifested by his Majesty's Ministers to press that great
principle beyond what it necessarily required. Now although
the Government of Earl Grey had received the support of
some lion. Gentlemen entertaining ulterior views, yet it was
necessary to refer to the state of parties at that time before
the comparison of the Noble Lord could be borne out. The
old Whig party at that time was unbroken, and the Radicalsin
that House were comparatively small to those who gave their
support to his Majesty's Ministers. But what was now the
state of affairs ? The measure now before them was not—
like the Reform Bill of Lord Grey, specific and finite. They
well knew what was their power of giving effect to that deci-
sion. But was the relative strength of parties the same
now as it had been before ? Was not the Radical party
stronger by the secession of the old Whigs? Was there no
compact between them and the Government ?—( Hear.) If
he understood at all the nature of the union or coalition which
now existed, it went to give Downing-street and office to the
Ministerial party, in return for which the Irish Church was to
be sacrificed to the National Association.—(Cheers.) So
much was he convinced of it, that his decided opinion was, if
those gentlemen who sat on his side of the House seceded for
only one short month from their attendance, within that period
household suffrage, vote by ballot, annual Parliaments, and the
voluntary principle, would be established in Ireland by a most
triumphant majority.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated on the
other side, that the motion for the abolition of Corporations,
brought forward by the Noble Lord the Member for South
Lancashire, was an Orange device. That statement he (Sir
J. Graham) was free to say, was utterly unfounded. He did
not desire to enter deeply into the details of the measure be-
fore the House, but there was one of them to which he
could not avoid calling the attention of the House. It
was the alteration made in it as regarded the appointment
of sheriffs in cities and towns in Ireland. That alteration
was not explained to the House by the Noble Lord who in-
troduced the measure.—(Hear, hear.) In the Bill of last
year it was provided that the Sheriffs in cities and boroughs
should be selected as they were in England —that
was by the mode of popular election. His ( Sir
James Graham's) side of the House urged against that
project, that it would give an undue control to the public
over those who had the administration of justice in their
hands. His Majesty's Ministers yielded to the arguments
then urged, and altered the Bill. The Bill before the House,
however, suffered materially from the alteration then made
on the suggestion of his side of the House. By the present
measure, it was proposed to give the popular body a right to
return three names as eligible to the office of Sheriff, which
three names the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was to have the
power of setting aside, without assigning any reason. It then
proposed to give the same right of returning three names to
the municipal body, but with the same reservation of power to
the Lord-Lieutenant also. A great deal had been said
against the setting aside jurors by the Crown on peremptory
challenge, without any reason being given. He (Sir James
Graham) was glad to find that a limit had been set to that
power, and in so far the explanation of the Hon. and Learned
Attorney-General for Ireland was sufficient and satisfactory.
But if the weight of public opinion was so strong
as to cause that relinquishment of a right by the Crown, on
the grounds that it was unpopular, what would it be in the case
of the measure before the House, when a power, analogous in
its nature, but capable of being made more obnoxious—the
power of rejection without cause of the six gentlemen selected
by their fellow-citizens for the office of Sheriff—was con-
ferred on the Lord Lieutenant ? If it were intended that the
power conferred on the Lord Lieutenant should not be exer-
cised in the case of those names returned by popular election,
then was there a deceit practised towards the country, and a

contravention of a solemn decision of the House. The deci-
sion he alluded to was couched in an objection of the Com-
mons to an amendment in the former Bill by the Lords—which
was to the effect of giving to the Clerks of the Crown and
Clerks of the Peace in cities a life interest in their respective
offices. The objection was urged in a conference between the
two Houses. It ran thus :—" The Commons object to the
amendment because they consider such offices as are connected
with the administration of justice in Ireland should be re-
moved from local influence, and placed directly under the
Crown." But if the concession were not a real one what was
it ? It was either a colourable one, or an act of tame sub-
mission to the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny. It
was an attempt to deceive the public, or an attempt to deceive
one who would not be deceived—to satisfy one who would not
be satisfied. The Noble Lord the Home Secretary admitted
that there was a great analogy between the Bill before the
House and the Bill on the Poor-laws--that was between the
subject of both. Now, what did Mr. Nicholls say in his
Report on the state of the poor in Ireland? He said in
substance that he did not believe there were the means
of constituting Boards of Guardians in that country, and
the Noble Lord, in corroboration of the correctness of that
belief, gave the Central Board the power of suspending
such of the Boards of Guardians as they thought fit.—
( Hear, hear.) Mr. Nicholls went still further, for he stated
that he believed the mode of creating a Board of Guardians
for the Poor would be at present dangerous in Ireland; yet
the Noble Lord proposed in the measure under discussion to
confer all the power upon the popular body. How did he re-
concile the discrepancy ? The Noble Lord in his speech on
the Poor-law described the state of Ireland to be one of men-
dicancy, vagrancy, and ma a Kling. He said, moreover, that
many of them had arms in their hands, and with them com-
mitted acts of violence and illegality. The Noble Lord
further illustrated his case by a story of an ejected tenant who
fired at the new occupant of the farm of which he had been
dispossessed, and shot his servant. That was the Noble
Lord's illustration of the state of Ireland at present ; but he
( Sir J. Graham) would read to the House something still more
curious. Perhaps the House was aware that Downing-street
had been lately delivered of a pamphlet.—( Cries of " Oh,"
" Hear," and laughter.) It was worthy the attention of the
Attorney-General for Ireland.—(" Hear," and laughter.)
The Foreign Office had been in labour, and it had brought
forth—not a mouse, but a book--a hopeful bantling it was.
( Laughter.) It was christened in due form, and its name was
" The Policy of England towards Spain." In that pamphlet
it was attempted to gloss over the painful atrocities which dis.
graced the civil war now raging in Spain ; and the murder
of Cabrera's mother—( Cries of " Oh, oh I" from the Mini-
sterial side of the House, and cheers from all the rest)—the
assassination of Quesada—( Cries of " Divide," on the Trea-
sury benches)—and the mutilation of his body, were treated
comparatively as trivial matters. An attempt was made, as
he had already stated, to gloss over these things. That pam-
phlet also contained a reference to the state of Ireland which
was not uninstructive, coming from the quarter that it did ;
but perhaps the House would rather hear the " juvenile Whig"
speak for himself, than have his (Sir J. Graham's) interpreta-
tion of his words. Not only were the atrocities alluded to
attempted to be palliated or glossed over, but a comparison
was actually instituted between Spain—a country where a civil
war, unequalled in its intense atrocity, was at present raging
—and Ireland, very little, he was bound to say, to the ad-
vantage of the sister country. What said the pamphlet ? In
allusion to the state of Spain, it went on—" Let us look at
home, and examine what passes here under our eye daily,
with every circumstance favourable to the punishment
of crime and the repression of vice, surrounding us, and
then we shall be enabled to form some estimate of the ex-
tent of the difficulty which Spain, situated as she is, has to
encounter. Some of the provinces of Spain are larger than
Ireland, yet I much doubt whether, in taking an account of
the relative quantity of crime committed in both countries, in
a given space of nine—say twelve months—the balance
would be in favour of Spain and against Ireland. With all
their troops and munitions of war it is impossible for any
Government to exercise its functions properly unless the peo-
ple are taught to see their own interests in the suppression of
vice and crime."—(Cheers.) That was the parallel drawn
by the juvenile Whig of Downing-street between Spain and
Ireland. The pamphlet said—" The Spanish monk is ge-
nerally an illiterate and most illiberal person, but he is,
notwithstanding, well versed in intrigues, and possesses a
thorough knowledge of the management of the peasantry
about him. He is cunning, deep, designing, and artful.
Mixing in every thing, he knows all that is passing; and
by means of auricular confession, he has a power over
their affairs which none but himself can possess. An
army of such men, in a country like Spain, is sufficient to
overturn an empire." He (Sir J. Graham) would repeat, with
a little alteration, that an army of such men, in a country like
Ireland, was sufficient to overturn an empire. (Hear, and.
cries of " Oh.") He (Sir J. Graham) would not then stop to
inquire into the amount of the funds of the National Associa-
tion or their application. He would only remark, in passing,
that the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, in a letter
from Derrynane to a Rev. Gentleman who suggested the pub-
lication of receipts and expenditure, recommended by all
means the publication of the receipts as often as possible.--
( Mr. O'Connell—Weekly.) Weekly, then, as the Hon. and,
Learned Member said ; but not a word about the expenditure.
__(Hear, and a laugh.) Mr. Burke said, in terms which he
(Sir James Graham) would not pretend to quote literally, as
lie had not the passage by him, talking of the subject of
abstract rights, " that, of all abstract rights, none is so
clear as the right of self-defence. The sword is a weapon
of self-defence. If a man ask me for my sword, and I
am aware that his intention is to cut my tlroat with it,
would I not be a fool or a coward if I did not refuse it to
him ?" So was it with municipal institutions in Ireland. They
were the sword. If, then, he (Sir J. Graham) knew them to
be asked for purposes which he considered fatal, would he not,
in Burke's words, " be a coward or a fool if he did not refuse
them—(Cheers)—if he gave the deadly weapons into an
avowed enemy's hand 27—( Hear, hear.) It came to this—he
saw clearly that the Protestant Church in Ireland was in the
utmost danger.--( Cheers.) Those who considered nothing
but its destruction could afford to make light of the cry, " The
Church is in danger," but those who, like him, considered it a
great national blessing, heard the sound with anxiety and fear.
That it was in danger needed there any further proof than the
speech of a Minister of the Crown, the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Ireland, when, the other night, he spoke of its rot..
tenness ?—( Cheers.) Wherein was its rottenness? In what
did it consist ? Not in its foundation, for that rested on the
rock of ages—(Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh")—not in its
bulwarks, for they were built up in the hearts of a million of
brave men, who, knowing that it was their duty to defend it to
the last, would rather die than give it up.—( Cheers.) Still
he (Sir J. Graham) would admit that there was rottenness in
it—(" Hear, hear," and " Oh" )_..but that rottenness con-
sisted alone in the hollow, wavering, insincere support given to
it by the Ministers of a King who had sworn at his coronation
to defend the united Churches of Great Britain and Ireland in
all their rights and privileges. —( Hear.) They had prepared for
" The rent the envious Casca made,"