The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-21 00:00:00

LEGAL APPOINTMENTS IN IRELAND.

On the question of the second reading of the Consoli-
dated Fund Bill being again put,
Mr. GEORGE DAWSON said that, as it was not
probable be should have another opportunity for some
weeks to come, he felt it necessary to trouble the House
with a few observations on the recent appointments and
changes in Ireland. Ile believed that all men were agreed
on the question of the fitness of the persons who were ap-
pointed to fill these offices, and he was confident, indeed,
that the Learned Gentleman raised to the Bench of the
Common Pleas, would, in a very brief space of time,
satisfy all of the propriety of his elevation. It was not so
much to the men who were placed in the new situations,
as to the manner in which they were so placed, that the
objections were taken; and he believed he spoke the feel.
ings of the people of Ireland when he said that the ap-
pointment of the Noble Lord (Lord Plunkett) to the head
of the Court of Chancery had excited the utmost dissatis-
faction and astonishment. On a former occasion, he (Mr.
Dawson) had asked a question from the Noble Lord (Al.
thorp) with respect to that appointment, and the Noble
Lord seemed to know very little about it ; but he had since
been told that the Noble Lord was selected for the appoint-
ment because the Government had occasion for a political
Judge. Now, in his humble opinion, Ireland had enough
of political Judges ; and if the principle of selecting Judges
for their politics was once to be entertained, they would
have such flight from the Four Courts that the House
would soon become tired of their company. It was now
four years since Sir A. Hart had been appointed Lord Chan-
eeellor of Ireland, purely because it was agreed by all par-
ties that Ireland required a Judge who was not mixed up
with politics, and they were new told that it was necessary
to displace him for a:Judge who was mixed up with politics,
and whose appointment was looked on by all parties, Ca-
tholic as well as Protestant, with equal dread and consterna-
tion. It was, indeed, notorious that Lord Plunkett was
not popular with the Catholics, and looked on with dis-
trust by all the Protestants. They were told, however,
in this country, that the Noble Lord's appointment was
the more worthy of approbation because he must be ranked
among the most strenuous supporters of the Established
Church. Now it was well known by every body in Ire-
land, that Lord Plunkett was a Dissenter, and that he was
not by any means attached to the professors of Protes-
tanism.—(Hear, hear.) They were told, however, that
there was to be a saving of 2,0001. a year in the future
salary of the Lord Chancellor. All this sounded well in
words, but how did it correspond with their conduct in
that House? some ten days ago the Noble Chancellor of
the Exchequer moved for a Select Committee of that
Heim, to report on the amount which they considered
fitting to be given to the Ministers of the Crown, because
they thought that course would be more grateful to the
country and prove more beneficial to the public service,
than if they were to make the reductions themselves; but
in this case, where the salary of a great law officer and a
Member of the other House was concerned, they seemed
to have no hesitation in fixing the amount of his salary
themselves. There wan an inconsistency in this not a little
remarkable, and even ridiculous. It appeared, indeed, as
if Ministers merely intended to throw a tub to the whale,
fur the gratification of the popular feeling of the mo-
ment; but that in any case where a point of patronage
was concerned, they could come to a decisive con-
clusion at enee.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Either Minis-
ters had not turned their attention to the question
of economy, notwithstanding all their promises—or
they did not see their way clearly to a performance of
them. At all events, he was sure that such proceedings
would not satisfy the country. He now came to another
point—.the retirement of the Chief Baron of the Exchequer
in Ireland. They were told that the Chief Baron had ex-
pressed a strong desire to retire, and that twenty-five
years of service gave him a: title to demand it. Now,
when he (Mr. Dawson) was connected with the Go-
vernment, lae knew that it had then heard nothing of the
disposition of the Chief Baron to retire—nothing of his
indisposition to continue to preside on the Bench—and, in.
deed, he aught say, that the Learned Judge was con.
aidered to he as fit for the efficient performance of his
duties as any other in the country ; hut now they were
all on a sudden told that the Chief Baron was to retire,
and to be bribed with a Peerage for his complaisance.-
--(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Dawson) did not wish to cast
any imputation on the Learned Chief Baron. He had
eveu voted against the motion of the lion. Gentle-
man (Mr. Rice) at the time it was brought forward ;
but was i t recollected by some of the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite ? Did they remember what were the
charges they brought forward against the Chief Baron,
and supported by their deliberate vote in that House?
Did they remember what they had urged against
the Judge whom they now advised their Sove-
reign to raise to the Peerage as a reward for his re-
signing his seat at the time they required it? In the year
1823, some of the Hon. Persons who gave this advice
brought forward a motion against the Chief Baron O'Grady,
charging him with taking unnecessary and illegal fees in
his Court of the Exchequer; a charge which if entertained
by the House would have had no other effect than that of
subjecting him to impeachment. The motion was lost, and
the Chief Baron escaped the consequences of its being car-
ried—lie (Mr. Dawson) having, as he observed before,
voted against both of the accusations. But what was the
course adopted by the supporters of the motion ? They
—the moment they obtained the power—reward with a
Peerage the man whom they had proclaimed by their vote
an extortioner of illegal fees.—(Hear.) And who were
the persons who composed the minority to which he al-
luded? Why the very first name on the list he found to
be that of Henry Brougham, now Lord High Chancellor
of England and Keeper of the King's conscience-.-the
very person whose duty it became, as a public officer, to
affix the Seal to the Patent of Peerage of the Chief Baron,
end whose duty it became also, as keeper of the Royal
Conscience, to advise his Sovereign with truth and sin-
cerity on his sense of the fitness of the person who was to
receive such a dignity at his hands. The next name he
found in the minority was that of the Member for Mont-
gomeryshire (Mr. C. Wynn), who was also one of his Ma-
jesty's Cabinet Ministers, bound to advise him on this sub-
ject. Then there were among others the names of the
Hon. MeMber for Limerick (Mr. S. Rice), and that of the
Hon. Member for Dungarvon (Mr. S. Lamb) both of them
connected with the Government, and one of them (Mr.
Lamb) the Under Secretary for the Home Department--an
office through which the patent of Peerage must pass,
and in which the Hon. Member would have of course, the
opportunity of pointing oat to his brother, Lord Mel-
bourne, the unfitness, in his opinion, of the Chief Baron,
for the honour to which he was destined. These, how-
ever, were the men who at this particular time thought
the Chief Baron no longer disqualified for the honours
of the Peerage ; and who even recommended to their
Sovereign that the person whom they had once stig-
matized by their vote should be now bribed with
a Peerage to quit the Bench, and rewarded also for his
compliance with 3,6001. a year, meddled on the country as
his pension. He regretted the necessity of alluding to
these matters at this moment, and of troubling the House,
but he thought it of great importance that the public
should estimate properly the value of the professions of the
Ministry, and that they should be informed of the degree
of respect with which a Whig Government regarded the
honour of the Peerage, and of the regard which they really
paid to the promises of economy and retrenchment.
Mr. O'GRADY rose with some warmth, to express his
surprise that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have
ripped up accusations, exploded accusations of ten years'
standing, in order to make a point against the Govern-
ment, without giving him (Mr. O'Grady) any notice of
hie intention. Had the Right Ron. Outten= dons so,

he,bat i would,fioe
df
any havecrim ibreuelinty,pranepdarethdattotheprpounsellethawtetosemol
hilrlbp,iiiin.a,lo:t
idpneuaw:egri
at
ajdhtai:ennit
been
ts,ofl,tortfrhrrLeawe.ognc
oaifuytr forward- those
bribe
to charges
lea against
ve the his
Bench,f a t bile:
macquittedugl
a
y,
of his
1 reuowinnplotdanelf syd°.
fatherteawit oeolyeit c ewhl be
or .
placed e
dtffiththticet(paholli 1
ehenn
re:: isrnmandehrarei.agnian)dtsg;jose
irw:voWe‘fot‘t,bhsifohtuaohi
atcr
ecashhori
tfu"imrairebra
ins i
e;gpacquiredci
baituatntatpodteretired,
,a
teinhhaattrhaaLctetenmroefoawnner. He knew he never would be sit. The
which be did not know be would do, it was without arty
consequence of his doing so. The Chief Berea
after twenty-five years' service, he now accepted the offer,
hocpßxm.enfaeioaiuragvkiitirimedi:(etninnin.grairooti,onoattipynhnorardeuiivsane.o(ttitttiLGyriiadmm.
oceß—rkatn boil' (il
oh expressing e e
of
hfra. d)
Peel
thish occupiedi
sHa sneud
renewalt
rrptuhrsei s
oeiodnf
ttpht giving
hrhaee ecibhHt
ei
soorhavugeLse_
bnest
ni
liwtoo:ottil
outhwidest
feelings which had been roused on this omasion...(Heer,
the Chief Baron.
Sir JAMES GR:AnmAitaHthnhoAerM began by complaining thanks
plG;adowveastrankunelnneanvttolaildet
aaiioltpripostobonertwunhti:tioothoef
d
a domestic calamity ; and his other Noble Friend (Lord
Palmerston) was also absent, from the pressure ni the
moat urgent public business. The defence of the adenatte
of the Government had, therefore, fallen on hint (Sir.
Graham), one of its most unworthy Members; and ho
must take leave to trouble the House with a very furl' eb*
nervations on the extraordinary attack of the Right Ph
Gentleman on the whole of its conduct with reaped te
the legal aointments. The Government to 04°
0
had the honourp to belong, was on its trial befog'
country. It placed its title to the support of the Oen
through whom it hoped to maintain its power, 01°'
great principles—a determination to produce a all
Reform is the Commons' House of Parlierneet; a re
ittomeiemmioaubkseeresnadldleidapvornauocrttitcsoahbmrlienakirnedtbauaincctkirp:enacieniathi: publicfotie riburthese:7.,.....
and to secure the most rigid economy; and laetift.„..t°
twhiethtriaclontafidwenhciechtot they
ye
I There were the principles of the Goveratoest•,_ ''''l4,.
woeprpeorttoufonberitithlutirted,
pledges they had given to their country. The Right 'irk
Gentleman says the House is to take the new Lavr ar
painiraeata as a specimen of the manner in which the
gentlemen mean to redeem those pledge*. Ift hefieLl'he
was not to take the speech of that evening la I ir."-
men of the courtesy of the Right Honourable Gentlenuni
or of the generosity of demeanour with which the sett 0
the Government were to be henceforth Modell
(Hear, hear.)—He said Right Hon. Gentlemen--V
one time thought he might have said Right 11°132., ells
but if the honour and integrity of ever/ fillednte°l ;
Majesty's present Government was to be lnd
loolttitieetdlorwen: st.httle
question, as he had heard that night, be feared be
1'61,1.
say friend no more. He could scarcely,
.....tiodeealiv;
lieve, that three short weeks could hare ~ ii„,,,i
striking a change in the language of the Blrt to'
the
able Gentleman, and so strong an oPP°llllk°,l, Weal
Government, if be had not beard and °°°ll"44 the
lion. Gentlenian when opposed to the 0111011, ‘" );,„
late Mr. Canning, in the year 1626.--Ve°cLuellifisheit
He must say that, situated as be (Sir Jaw. Grona°ll hi
was, in the absence of so many of his collate (t 0
thought he might have expected greater forbes Gentlo7raner ":,
the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Hon.
had asserted that it was inexpedient to make thee:Ole:a
ment of Judges political appointments. In
thelose
rule he perfectly agreed with the Right on. 13j
0"...:.,
but the appointment of Lord Chancellor, both in ATI
and in Ireland, was an exception to that rule: 110;10
the political counsellor of the Crown. Ihe ilieneoPail .you
of Sir Anthony Hart was an exception to the
in that respect. That matter had ben expisix",o,
esty?
where by the Noble Lord at the head of his
Maj
.1
vernwent. Among the many evils which bed 11170,i
the non-sett'emeat of the Catholic question, eoo
greatest (and it was so stated at the time by O,J .fit'
Hon. Meml,er for Tamworth) wee, that it prevenn
vernment from being at liberty to choose ce n'
rtai ofd
a,
whom, under other ciscumstanres, they
would hew
tiro
thilly
pointed. Lord Goderich had distinctly stated
consideration bad placed his Majesty's Goverpmett °„„
great difficulty. It rendered it expedient that W 4
thony Hart should remain Lord Chancellor of rtp.„,
.1 hough Lord Plunkett would have been a prefer _weir."
son for that situation. As to the expediency st 03_,
sent moment of having a Lord Chancellor of Ireland
, ...4
political opinions coincided with his blefeety's 011
agitated, sad that a powerful party
, the Union, ~ . ill
that country in attenipting to dissolve
that a ter
thought that all who agreed with him . i t
ti..
of the Union with Ireland would be equees en .
.:
dismemberment of the empire, and that it would kr.:
ment, when it was consider..-1 thatwailreblaunsdur sev.4o:l
concur in the propriety of having such whet
If that were the case, be begged t° ark
""Atiir
would have been sound policy, for such a coir;he
tion as 1,400/. a-year, at such a critical women; 1,
present, to deprive the Lnrd Lieutenant of Irel.an !Li;
injurious an a repeal of the Union withScoatlactotr;
valuable services of an individual, st,hose splendid
.1010/
had so frequently been witnessed is that Houle 11.7.1 i.
whom he might justly say, that in point of talerr I,7ii
quence, and Statesman-like qualities, he lad 0, f:,-,
the individuals, snd of their qualification% I°°....°)°:e
plroeilnatnirde,ntasn
t.d
Anioagsisutpraetresio,r iLnotriadispicounuknettre;
iio6wit:Ptiroff
great advantage. The Right Hon. Gentleman 1729ei
and the objection came with a singular Oa. nitir
who had been so staunch as Orangenette-40!:.:ittr
pointment of Lord Plunkett to be Lord Cbancelll7.o,
land would be peculiarly obnoxious to thell7 pi
Why, he (Sir James Graham) bad Yet to !care'i3O'
could not, he would not believe, that the Cathoo",74 hate
land would view with an evil eye, one who °I; oft
among their moat triumphant advocates, an°. the WI
they were under the greatest obligation. Ilt" the
thmey were under time greatest ohlsg
,stiofl'
~ion thiSt the
Hon. Gentleman also expressed his pet''
the pritiaisas
fNooubtlhetLmoarndfutielyould he equally disliked hru te . Rho'
of the Church of England, as being e Pia" r'tt Whe
he begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet to
h'ad pot
ther, when his Noble Lord was his Colleg
euifeg_. Direett
had maintained inin
fathvoeurbaotftiteshe 7"rhoitachtts'hit l'e7litb.tsrlisbYti°ltiir:
was surely no bad bargain for
in Ireland ; and whether he had not in ..47 A°
evinced an equal attachment to that establish:7;oot it
his Noble Friend in another Place bad re to °Pill
thet aspapy ointment
anything, o f Mu
the services of such a man, and at tbee—esettct.;
the P:baloi ti al! if
permanent saving of 8,0001. a-year, ot,for i vett
a pension of 3,600/. a-year, during the yfira inunitgit' f
Justice
Soof
tmuchhecofmo rmotnh e
Ps pl itaaosi,ntirr:enwtooti..:oo..
no 00:10...vriel
hOinaohaertitYhtto tb7....o..n..„seiesvreee. I; _ai-eti
himself acknowledged thatrithDewas uoCrrir'..- courre°-
retirement of the Lord Chief Baron also 1w5°11.70.1,1 told the
root fro,*
quite independent of say political c° yet
suggestion of that retirement &ail° ?Rilibt ilf:
his Majeaty's present Government. lb! .„1 iett°,7,-,
Gentleman said, that he was not assure 0' ,opted 1-d
of the Chief Baron to retire until he yrs° i.pre
Peerage. The late Government had, holl'i" ;cot 0,c);
to the Chief Baron to retire; and all that thetPts ii toir
vernment had done was to adopt such toe'sintit to Or,
render that proposition effective. IVith, ria,aoe4` de icil'etk
tiring pension, the length of the 'Chit' ''''''' 10410 t
had entitled him to demand that whenever botdoirenit°
fit. The general disposition of his IklajeetY'l ion, befAl.
to retrench as much as possible, had, in
Lh utensi. °Pot, reds
very unequivocally evinced. They had olte pit, co el,
°
the offices of Treasurer of the Navy, it id
of' the Ordnance, Vice-Treasurer of Ireland'a
master General of Ireland. •
Mr. G. LAMB begged to say a few yradle:is el:
to what had fallen from the Right Ho' Gen•t„erlYt W of
site, respecting the opinions of the small idil atfoodr,
seven or eight years ago, had voted on the; tre(r..,
which the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded. .7;41,
Lamb) believed that he was almost the onlY IlLvieds
sent who had belonged to that smafl minority' "ow 70
bility of defending their conduct devolved orlio 000100
trusted he was not unequal to that task; NI ithietb,hi
it would have been more accordant to justice, ° fig, if
.„„'
perhaps to the Right Hon. Gentleman's vital' °hoer
Right Hon. Gentleman had abstained fretst°°cri
that subject in the Absence of those who nivroorett,4
tent to answer. He confessed that he was or" itir;"i
nished than at the proposition which hid beePnripet„rit
by the Right Honourable Gentleman. 'Olt 'hid riie
was to the effect, that although the 10°14schief P. al
mined on the occasion in question, that the „..emlctj,
should not be put on his trial, he should ne7,0007,)
treated as if he had been not only tried bildol,lo.
Wee the acquittal by the House nothing? 11°i`noecetiri
had always been taught to consider a eer.°ll,,ioo 171401.
fore he had been tried ; the Right Bon. Gent'a Afir oi.
to consider persons guilty after they bad b, 0010
But because he (Mr. Lamb) had been one ci chleflat
nority who bad formerly voted for putting thion to
on his trial, was he therefore ever after to ciefo rio
Learned Person as unfit for office or for 111 : /kill.
hunt and persecute him to the end of hie 11,40eie
not a very clear recollection of the 40100

else; but ha remembered, that after a re-consideration of
o,oOn:circumstances he had not thought the case so strong
a one as in the first instance it appe,ired to him to be.
This, ,however, was certain, that Chief Baron O'Grady
bad beets acquitted by the House of Commons.: Under
those .oisournstances to have stopped the current of those
rewards and honours to which he was entitled by his long
services, would have been nothing less than gross perse-
Mien.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR was one of those who, on the oc-
casion alluded to, had voted for Par lament's sending the
• Chief Baron to trial in some other place. The minority
Wu small, but among them were the present Lord Lynd-
hurst, and others whose opinions were entitled to respect.
But because that was his opinion ten years agos should he
heinstifsed, after Parliament had determined against it, in
maintaining that the Learned Person in question should
not have the rewards and honours to which his long
public services entitled him? Further than that he had
never thought the case a strong one ; and if he had been
*friend of the Chief Baron's, he would at the time have
advised bins to demand an inquiry into his conduct. The
proposition was, however, overruled by the House. He
(Mr,Taylor) had bad some connexion with Ireland, and
bohad never known the Chief Baron's integrity as a Judge
impeached, except in the instance which had been ad•
retied t 0.,. _

Lord 3IORPETII would touch upon only one or two
0:tho multifarious points comprehended in the attack of
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. He had not the
honour, to know the ,Chief Baron ; but the cause of that
Learned Person had Already been satisfactorily advocated
by; bis Most natural end competent defender.—( Hear,
hear.)- From ell that he had beard of that Learned Per-
la*, he concurred in every thing that hail been said in
hie praise. , The Right lion. Gentleman seemed to con-
tider that the appointment of Lord Plunkett to the office
of lord Chancellor of Ireland would be equally obnoxious
.Catholics and to the Protestants of Ireland.—
'Why ?, No one bad espoused the cause of Catholic eman-
cipation trona eloquently, more zealously, more fervidly,
than Lord Plunkett;. and yet, in the fullest flow of his
'efforts no one had more sedulously excepted and guided
the intereats of the Protestant establishment, than Lerd
Plunkett. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad expressed his
tooted dislike of all political Judges. It was undoubtedly
tree that Lord Plunkett was a political character; but it
should be recollected that he was a Judge already. He
was a Judge in a Court of Common Law. Now it was
much more convenient that a political character should
preside over a Court of Equity than over a Court of
Common Law; for in Ireland political considerations had
01114 greater influence in a Court of Common Law than
in a Court of Equity. What was the substance of the
Right Hon. Gentleman's complaint? That the most
eminent man in the Court of Equity in Ireland had been
hlaced at the head of that Court. Ile Pius surprsied to
ear the late Member for Londonderry utter expressions
so strong, and which were equally applicable to almost
Piety Chancellor in Ireland who had preceded Sir Anthony
gam

Sir JOHN NEWPORT begged to say a few words.
Re was exceedingly surprised to hear the Right Hon•
gentleman opposite say that the Protestants in Ireland
would look with jealousy on the appointtnent of Lord
Phiekett as Lord Chancellor. Did he forget that a most
041i/tent member of the Protestant Church of Ireland had
'Retried his daughter; and that two of his sons were in
the Church? As to the Noble Lord's being a Dissenter,
did the Right Hon. Gentleman forget that Archbishop
Seeker, and several other dignitaries of the Church of
England, had originally been Dissenters ? With respect
to the removal of the Under-Secretary of State in Ireland,
such a removal was es•ential to the efficient transaction of
the public service. Ile (Sir J. Newport) had had some
experience on that point, and he well knew that no
!4illieter could adequately discharge his duty with unwilling
instruments. _ _

Sir R. PEEL, in what he was about to say, would
avoid any reference to party. Indeed he would not have
'Picea at all, had there not been a kind of personal appeal
to. him. In the first place, with reference to the dismissal
of Mr. Gregory, he must beg to bear his strong testimony
to that gentleman's merits; and he was bound to say,
tEttkreliatever might be Mr. Gregory's political opinions,
he (Sir Robert Peel) was perfectly convinced that that
Patleman would not withhold that cordial assistance
Which it was his duty to render to those who were at the
bad of his department, whatever might be their political
"",titict. Mr. Gregory, however, like other meritorious
public servants, had been the victim of the calumnious
rrISS of Ireland. ~It was well known that whatever might
": the knout-of soy man's conduct in that country, he
catnetionoxons to the severest censure from the Press.
~,
"'Minions what they might, be could not escape. He
tiered,that all the attacks which had been made upon
Gregory ware unfounded. He believed that that
tintleman,was focapahli of being swayed in his public
clay by: his political feelings. A man of greater integrity
44 honour in private life lie (Sir R. Peel) had never met
With. lie was bound, however, to admit the soundness
f the statement of the Honourable Member fur Water-
'Rd, that those who were responsible for the conduct of
144 Government should be entitled to choose their own
1114i/ries. No doubt, after thirty years' service, Mr.
Pratory was entitled to retire. The real as well as the
,Itilth of his services entitled him to grateful considera-
r. Land . he (Sir R. Peel) hoped that no pledge which
Majesty's Government had given of retrenchment
/°°4ld prevent:them from taking a just and liberal view of
r. finery's claims. With respect to Chief Baron
ni9rady, when the subject of that learned person's con-
was some yeara ago before the House, he (Sir Robert
4-eel) was in a position which enabled him to examine
ths circumstances of the case ; and with all due jealousy
tic the purity of the judicial character, lie could not
41,.rihttbs to him any undue motives. Ile begged to offer
K 00• Gentleman
words of warning and exhortation to the Right
17‘1. Gentleman opposite. The late Government had
ben denounced as a Government indifferent to the wants
'4ld feelings of the people, arid indisposed to that rigid
'Thorny which the necessities of the times required. He
*quid now ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether, short
their experience had been of Administration, they did
hot find the difficulty of carrying on the Government
IYeater than they had expected ? Ile by no means blamed
them for the means which they had been compelled to
"Nit all that he wished to infer was, that their prede-
• Alsors ought not to be too hastily censured. He willingly
1,400 ed that Lord Plunkett was perfectly qualified for the
%Nation of Lord Chancellor of Ireland ; but by the cir.
eurnst
ances of his appointment the present Ministers had
71,jected the country to an expence which hie Majesty's
Ministers had avoided. If the conduct of the late
‘',!ltniniatration with respect to the office of Lord Chan-
Zilltir of Ireland were recollected, it would be evident that
)45t the', Were MA so regardless of considerations of
economy as it had been imputed to them they were.
hb„,Anthooy Hart was appointed Lord Chancellor of Ire-
by Mr. Canning. When the Duke of Wellington
thointo power, however, lie did not remove Sir An-
14_1_1111AM fur the purpose of appointing some individual
I..vourable to hie political opinions. Even after the
i:!aohe question had been carried, the Duke of Welling-
-I,l'_'_lequieeeod in the continuance of Sir Anthony
Zoirt in the office of Lord Chancellor, and thereby spared
ric the expense of his retiring allowance. The
.citt Hon. Baronet opposite said that the office of Lord
etellor of Ireland was necessarily a political office—
:rill_ I. was in England, and that it was so in Ireland. Al-
i:tut he would not lay down a general rule on the sub-
: flit Puld not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet that
ter. oetr'iht
Thu Lord
of Ireland must he a political charac-
ter.
__Lord Chancellor of Ireland was placed in a si-
different from that of the Lord Chancellor of Eng-
" lie was not the political adviser of the Crown. Ile
h.d_o_uebatedjy, performed some political acts ; chiefly the re-
9°dation of Magistrates; but he was not the poli.
t'ilc,et
,I.rlaviser of the Lord Lieutenant. The truth was, that
the Lord Chancellor of Ireland interfered with po-
r4 the better. He heel stated on a former occasion that
o,ereople must not be too vehement in their
errsexpectaione
retrenchment which any Government, howev ia.
37:41. could effect. The time was come when the rela-
c,'!'ors of public servants on
The nifht B that point would be judged.
at present,
when he had less experience on
it.ge subject than
Duke of present, spoke of the indisposition of
.roe the ,Wallington to retrench to the extent necessary
sof) fral77c good. Now he (Sir R. Peel) would honestly
had
ennassert, that no member of any Administration
the bly,eurof
wrr! sincerely desirous of true economy than
ellington; and that few members of any
tllltdr_rnin.istration had ever enjoyed equal advantages for
th_uren'S the execution of his wishes. Ile allowed that
P'cserit Administration. had reduced the offices of
24-Tre„
urcr of Ireland, of Lieutenant-General of the
ti.:"Tfnee, and of Treasurer of the Navy. But did they
I ti
be that would be considered sufficient ? Would
be very easy
for any body to outbid them for popu-
Wibuld it
nnt be very easy for any man, with
Male extravagant
the Right views
Ilan. Baronet what
was
taepracticable than
e People, drontt and his friends, to say
4IPIPer term:- will carry on the public service on
the Neh
of I abolish the office of Chancellor of
ps./a, !'anctist" ; will alinlialt the office of Lord
:Amu ' . 1 will abolish th
4' '-,: Would (si office of I ay master of the
thy sorb ileclarat;,,,s) R. Peel) join in countenancing
lbe it ow
orr,
cur t.aittly not : because he knew
" t into effect. Did they not
a‘ 180084a' of the Government for the

' conduct of the public business was not sufficient; and al.
though they might wish to secure to every man through-
out the country the full reward of his labours, did they
not feel it was but a delusion to hold out to the country at
large the expectation of any extensive reduction in the ex-
pences of the Government, at least that any such extensive
reduction was inconsistent with the means of properly
conducting the public business, considered not with refer-
ence to the individual concerned, but with reference to
the discharge of public affairs ? He said with them, let
every office that was not absolutely necessary be cut dawn
let them dispense with all those places with which they
could dispense ; but he hoped that not any attempt to
catch the shadow of a fleeting popularity would induce the
Government to waste their proper strength. The question
after all, became one as to the merits of the late Govern-
ment, and must be decided when they could properly see
whether the condemnation pronounced against that Govern-
ment on the ground that they had not sufficiently dimi•
nished the public expenditure was well founded.—(Sir J.
Groliam nodded assent.) lithe Right Hon. Baronet could,
as by that applauding motion of his head he seemed to inti-
mate, show that much greater reductions than those made
by the late Government were practicable, no man would be
more delighted than he ( Sirß. Peel) at such a circumstance.
It would certainly prove that the late Government might
have done more; but on the advantages which would be
obtained by the country he should heartily rejoice, though
he must at the same time share in the condemnation of
not having before conferred them. He only cautioned his
Right Hon. Friends in the most friendly spirit not to
pledge themselves too hastily to a sweeping retrenchment,
before they had examined all the details of the offices with
which they were connected—not to promise that reduction
of salaries which they might afterwards find would weaken
the public services, and not to encourage the public too
much in expecting that diminution of officers which might
afterwards be found inconsistent with the safety of the
country. The present Government had pledged them-
selves to Reform, to eeonatny, and to the maintenance of
peace. With respect to Reform, that was not the time to
say anything about it. The measure was one of too much
importance to be introduced incidentally into discussions of
that kind. He would, however, say that he trusted that
that declaration of his Majesty's Prime Minister, that no
measure of Reform, not consistent with the maintenance of
existing institutions, should be introduced, would be strictly
adhered to. With respect to retrenchment, that must be
the profession of all Governments—it was so of the present
—it had been so of the last; and though Members in op.
position might find fault with the continuance of this or
that office, it was his firm belief that not five years would
elapse without the conviction arising in the public mind,
that these professions had been fulfilled by the Doke of
Wellington's Government. With respect to the maintenance
of peace, lie was sorry to hear the present Government
state it, as a distinguishing mark of their policy, that they
were determined, at all hazards, to maintain peace. Of
course every Government must wish to preserve peace.
The late Government had always stated that to he their
wish, and theie was no Government but what did so; they
declared that they would leave no effort untried, consistent
with the honour of the country, to preserve peace. No
man felt more than he did the necessityof avoiding the re-
kindling of the flames of war—no man was more deeply con-
vinced that this country was interested in making peace ;
but peace was not always a question ; it was not always
to be obtained or continued at the wish of the Govern-
ment, and he doubted the policy of too strong and de-
termined a declaration that at any hazard the Government
of this country would preserve peace.—(Hear.)—He
knew that the explanation of this was, that they would do
all they could to maintain peace, but that explanation
brought the matter back to what was sail by every Go•
vernment. All he complained of was, that when the Go-
vernment of the Duke of Wellington, which was essen-
tially pacific, had confined its declarations to the limit of
maintaining peace to the utmost extent, consistently with
the honour of this country, the present Government should
have put it forward too prominently, as one of their prin-
ciples of Government, that they would maintain the peace
at all hazards. Ile concurred with them, that every
effort consistent with the honour of the country, should he
made for the preservation of peace; but let not their ex-
' pres.ions of their determination, at all events, to preserve
it, be too strong ; for the interests of this country, or cir-
cumstances which, at this moment, it was impossible to
forsee, might compel them to change their determination ;
and those circumstances might possibly be created by too
strong a manifestation of their wish to preserve peace.
He called on them to show, as the late Government had
done, that in the event of there being a necessity for re-
sorting to arms, they would at once take up arms. He
called on them not only to show this, but their confidence,
that in the event of such a necessity, they could repose with
confidence on the belief, that the ancient spirit of the coun-
try would rally round the Government, and maintain by its
courage that which their judgment had declared to be inevi-
table.—(Hear.)—The Right Hon. Baronet had com-
plained of the course pursued by his (Sir Robert Peel's)
Right Honourable Friend, as of a course intended to ob-
struct the proCeedings of the Government. He' denied
that such conduct could be imputed to his Right Hon.
Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet supposed that that
course of conduct proceeded from pique at the loss of
office. For himself, he (Sir R. Peel) assured the Howie,
that so far as place was concerned, if he never returned to
it he should not consider it a misfortune ; and that if he
should ever return into office, so far as his personal feel-
ings alone were concerned, he should feel it little less than
a misfortune. Having said so much with respect to the
points on which he could not concur with the present Go-
vernment, lie was happy to be able to express his full con-
currence with them in one matter of great importance; be
was pleased, much pleased, with the declaration they bad
made, that they would support, at all hazards, the Legis-
lative Union of England and Ireland.—(Cheers.)—He
suggested to the Right Hon. Baronet, and to the other ad-
visers of the Government, whether, if those who agitated
this question, but were determined not to bring it for-
ward, since they avoided discussion, for the purpose of
continuing agitation—be suggested, he said, to the present
Ministers, whether it would not be better to place on re-
cord the opinion of that House—(Hear, hear)—to move
a resolution declaratory of the opinion of the Legislature ?
—(Hear, hear. )_Those who thought that the Union
ought to be dissolved, ought to submit the question, not
to popular agitation in Ireland, but to the deliberation and
sanction of those branches of the Legislature who were,
and ought to be, the sole tribunals for deciding it.—(llear,
hear.)—He hoped that the young Members of that House,
the gentlemen who, as Catholic Members, now, for the
first time, sat amongst them, would show that, whatever
distinctions might have once existed, whatever matters
might have once divided them, the most heartfelt cordiality
united them to one end on that important subject.—
(Cheers.)—He would gladly sacrifice the office and power
he had once enjoyed, if the present Ministry, more than
the last, could secure the declaration of Parliament that
England end Ireland should share their fortunes in peace;
and if war was unavoidable, that they should fight united
together, and by their union attain that triumphant suc-
cess which they could not hope to enjoy if they were di-
vided.—(Hear, bear.)—He hoped, too, that out of doors
the people would not be misled by the declaration of af-
fected patriots. He hoped that before the inhabitants of
Dublin could be induced to follow the example of Belgium
and Paris, they would well consider whether they had the
same justifiable cause of opposition to the Government ;
and even when they had settled that point, he trusted that
they would well consider what was the present condi•
tion of those countries in which these revolutions had
taken place with the state in which they were before the
revolutions had taken place. In saying chat it IVils not
necessary to call in question the justice of the resistance
these people had made ; it was not necessary for him (and,
indeed; no circumstance could induce him to do it) to pal-
liate the conduct of the Governments ; but although the
resistance was justifiable, he had a right to inquire whe-
ther revolution was not a great evil ; and when he looked
to the condition of France and of Paris, and particularly
to the condition of the working classes, he could not help
thinking he was justified in believing that resistance might
be justifiable, but that it involved those who engaged in it
in almost irremediable ruin. He called on the House to
compare the state of the public funds in France with
their state before the Revolution. The resistance was
right ; it had been successful; the most popular men were
in office, yet how was it that property was deemed inse-
cure ; that employment was almost at an end; that indus•
try was paralysed ; that strangers were withdrawing from
the country, and that the condition of the lower classes
was infinitely worse than it was before the Revolution? If
it was so, as he believed it was, then he asserted it to be
true, that great changes in any Government could not
isopgo ndency,
property and
in
itvliteh
op:let cotenasst•ei
rtlitaolulyt
ar
n"ditiinnjguriaoluasrlyn ian'i
fluttendce
the country in which the Revolution took place.. lie
called on the Ilouse--he called on all people of property,
' '
to be fully aware of the mistake they would be commit-
ting, in dividing this country and Ireland, I to be
aware of inte
from such s measure. All people of propertdyfsovierae .
the irreparable evils that must result to both
rested in this question, and on them he ee
I n calm,vha
considerate, and full attention to this subject.
fair economy, but it was impossible to read I
be had said be bad not any intention to stopthtelecolu)illtheloiof
Press of this country, and to see their appeals ile to the
economyl):-
gone of the people, without knowing, that while
was put forward as their avowed object, their covert design I

wao to degrade and lower all the constituted authorities
of the country, and to secure for themselves that power
and authority which would he denied them under all other
circumstances. To gain that end they were willing to
create tumult and confusion, and to subject this country to
the worst and most degrading tyrannies—the tyranny of
an ungovernable mob.
Mr. HUMS thought the discussion now introduced had
been most unnecessarily commenced, and he entered his
protest against the mode adopted by the Right Hon.
Gentleman to prejudice the minds of the Government and
of that House against the adoption of measures of Re-
form and Retrenchment.

Sir R. PEEL said he had not the slightest intention to
create any prejudice against Reform or Retrenchment,
both of which be should be happy to see effected, pro-
vided they did not interfere with existing institutions.

Mr. HUME maintained that such -had been the ten-
dency of the Right Hon. Baronet's observations. The
Right Hon. Baronet had read a lecture to the lower
classes, and to those who called for retrenchment and eco-
nomy; but had he read a similar lecture to the higher
classes, who had brought this country to its present state?
No such thing. Had not the Government which pre.
ceded the present positively and distinctly refused all Re-
form, which the people had called for year after year?
The Right Hon. Baronet spoke of preserving existing in-
stitutions. The people did not wish to set aside those in-
stitutions, they only wanted to reform the abuses that had
crept into them. He hoped that his Majesty's present
Ministers would not listen to the advice given them on
that side of the House.—(Cheers, and laughter.)-oh,
he knew what those cheers meant—he was sitting on that
side, but then be was an exception—(Hear)—he was
not properly a part of that side of the House—(Hear).—
that side of the House was now in possession of those
%via, had recently sat on the other. He was not one of
their body—he was, as he had before said, an exception
to the rest.--(Hear, hear.)—Perhaps he might differ but
little from the Right Hen. Gentleman as to the salaries to
be paid to the efficient servants of the publie, but there
were others about whom some doubts might well be en-
tertained. Wien he looked around him he saw numerous
offices that might be reduced wholly, or in part, without
any injury to the effective service of the country. He
hoped that the present Government would adhere to the
promises they had given of retrenchment, and not risk the
advantages of the country by deserting their promises. He
should be glad to know what the Right llou.Baronet meant
when he spoke as if there could be no reduction of offices,
without injury to the public service, and when he talked of
preserving existing institutions? Were there not pen-
sions and sinecures increasing the Dead Weight, and rotten
boroughs whose occupants were put into useless places by
the Government ? After the explanation given by the
lion. and Learned Member for Weymouth, on the subject
of the abuses in the Court of Chancery, Le feared he could
not point out one thoroughly good institution, and there-
fore he was afraid of Reform.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
The people, however, did not want to destroy existing in-
stitutions, they only asked to have some controul over the
taxes to which they contributed. It was only Reform
that would enable honest men to act as Ministers, and to
Conduct the affairs of the public in that House. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of his personal feelings,
as opposed to his being in office. Those feelings, no doubt,
arose from the difficulties he had to contend with while
in office. Those difficulties would be at an end in a re-
formed Parliament; and under such a Parliament, he
should be glad to see the Right Hon. Gent. in office. The
Right Hon. Gent. said, that he did not like the distinct pledge
of peace given by the present Government. If there was
any one thing better than another in the conduct of a
Government, it was the making a distinct pledge that they
would not interfere with the affairs of other nations—
(Hear, hear.) It was that interference which had added
six hundred millions to our debt ; rind it was the successful
issue of that interference on which the late Lord Liverpool
congratulated the other House of Parliament, though he,
and those in office with him, bad frequently before de-
clared that their own defence, and not the re-establish-
ment of the Bourbon family, were the objects of the war.
He repeated that he was rejoiced at the pledge of non-in-
terference given by this Government, and he conscien-
tiously believed that if the Duke of Weliington had con-
tinued in power this country would have been at this mo-
ment, if not in actual war, at least on the verge of hostili-
ties.—(Hear.) He was, therefore, glad that the late Mi-
nistry were no longer in office, and that the present Mi-
deters had pledged themselves to the maintenance of peace.
With respect to what the Right lien. Gentleman had
stated regarding revolutions, he must say that if the party
who held the Government broke the conditions on which
they held it, the people bad a right to put an end to the
Government ; and that had been the case in France. Al-
though, therefore, the Right lion. Gentleman had con-
demned the French, lie could not but admit that the Go-
vernment had no right to issue the ordinances, and there-
fore he must admit that the people were right in resisting
them. lie wished the Poles as much success as had at-
tended the French ; but he declared, at the same time, that
it was no part of ie duty of Government to interfere.
Sir R. PEEL had not condemned the French—he had
said that they had no alternative but resistance, and had
only observed, that lawful as was the resistance, it was
still unfortunately true that the revolution thus occasioned,
though successful, had been productive of much misery.
Mr. LEADER said that when he considered the cir-
cumstances, foreign and domestic, under which the Noble
Earl now at the head of the Government had been called
upon to take office, lie could not but think the selection of
such a man the best that could have been made. In the se-
lection of Lord Plunkett as Chancellor of Ireland the Noble
Earl had shown a sound judgment, and had also manifested
the excellence of his choice in the appointment of the late
Attorney-General. He thought also that the Government
were quite right in conferring, as they had done, a distin-
guished honour on the late Chief Baron, whose conduct
had certainly been the subject of accusation at a former
period, but who had come out of that accusation to the
satisfaction of that House. , He should make no observa-
tion with respect to the appointment of the late Soli-
citor-General, except that it could not be objected to by
the late Government, since they had been the first to re-
cognise and assert his merits.—(Hear, hear.) With re-
spect to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, be had de-
veloped the resources of Ireland, and it was much to be
regretted that the same course hail not been followed to the
same extent by his successors. Ireland was languishing
under absenteeism, and groaning under taxation, but he
hoped that the measures of the present Government would
take from the Anti-Unionists the only ground upon which
they could stand. Ile had been forced into the House
against his inclination, but being there, he thought him-
self bound in justice to state his opinions fearlessly.
Mr. SLANEY believed there were but few who listened
to the bad advisers of the Press to whom the Right Hon.
Baronet had referred, so that the poison, unless it spread
widely, could do little harm to the community at large.
He was persuaded that discontent would subside and finally
Reform. declarationT
h
The
odfi disappear. It
Miitnliisatydrb,
present Government was pledged to a Reform, not only
etehna t e x
thereeited should l)ythe
bepositive
speedy but effectual, and the people would wait patiently
for the redeeming of that pledge, in the confidence that
they should not be disappointed. Even if the lower orders
should not be satisfied, the middle classes would loyally
rally round the banner of a Constitutional Monarch.
Much had been said on the subject of distresses; and from
some experience in the Southern Counties, he was con-
vinced that the distresses at least there were by no means
irremediable. If gentlemen would but return to their
estates, and make those exertions which the situation of
the peasantry demanded—if they would come forward to
give employment to the poor during the severity of the
winter, a considerable and a beneficial change would be
soon visible.

Mr. G. DAWSON explained, that he did not intend
to be guilty of any want of courtesy towards the Right
Hon. Gentleman, especially in not communicating the
nature of the statement he had to make: the fact was,
that it was called for on the sudden, by the unfair removal
of Mr. Gregory. He, however, begged to apologise to the
Hon. Baronet for the use of the word " bribe," which
had escaped front him, while he only meant it in the sense
of inducement. In what he had said he had not intended
to express the slightest personal
The Consolidated Fluid Bill was then read a third time
and passed.
ADJOURNMENT AND BUSINESS OF THE
HOUSE.
Sir ROBERT PEEL moved the printing of certain
Parish Returns, which ought to be in the hands of
Members during the approaching recess.
Sir J. GRAHAM would take this opportunity, in the
absence of. the Noble Lord (Althorp), of stating the in-
tended arrangement of public business. It was to be pro-
posed that the House, at its rising this night, should ad-
journ till te-morrow ; to•morrow it would be moved that
it should adjourn at its rising until Thursday ; on Thurs-
day it was intended to move that the House should adjourn
for the recess until the Bth of February. On the 15th of Fe-
bruary the House would commence with the Election Pe-
titions, in the order in which they stood in the book ;
three ballots would take place on each of two days in the
week, viz. three on every Tuesday, and three more on
every Thursday, 'until the House arrived at a series of pe-
titions, all of which were presented in one day : the
priority of those would be best decided by putting them
into ens urn. There was one exception...the petition

from Wigan—the sitting Member for that Borough hav-
ing relinquished his seat : the representation was, there-
fore, so far incomplete, and in order to remedy the defect
it was intended to take that petition into consideration
first on the 15th February. He mentioned this as the
proposed arrangement, without wishing it to be under-
stood that some variation might not be made by circum-
stances.' The principle was, that all the ballots should be
completed before Easter.
Sir li. PEEL was quite aware of the circumstances in
which Ministers were placed, and of their natural desire
to have an interval of time to make certain preparations ;
hut he could not help s tying that he thought the proposed
adjournment too long, looking at the very little business
that bad been already transacted. He had no wish to
embarrass Government, and he admitted their claim to an
opportunity of considering and digesting their measures;
but it would he better to have the recess a little shorter.
Sir J. GRAHAM, in the absence of his colleagues, did
not intend to enter into discussion upon the subject ; he
only meant to give notice that on Thursday the adjourn-
ment would be moved. The Right lion. Baronet bad
disclaimed all intention to embarrass Government, and be
could not but be aware that time for deliberation was abso-
lutely necessary. He hoped, therefore, that the adjourn-
tnent required by his Majesty's servants, to the sth of
February, would not be opposed. So far from its being
the cause of delay, he thought that this lengthened recess
would be actually the means of expediting puldic business,
as it would give Ministers leisure to prep ire and adjust
measures adapted to the cireurmstinces of the country.