The Sun.
London, England, 1830-06-19 00:00:00

£460 17 10

26% years' purchase whereof is £12,328 17 0
Add value of Superiority

Upset price £12,27 18 1
There will he exposed sepal•ately the LANDS of
ROCKHALLHEAD and CARTHAT, consisting of 589
Acres of Land Scoti, statute measure, or thereby, and
lying within five miles of the town of Dumfries.
The present estimated rental of these lands is £l33 4 0
Deduct public burdens l9 19 3

£413 4 9

Which at X years' purchase will yield £10,7.14 3 6
Add value of Superiority, being 2701. Scots at 1/
sterling for each pound Scots

Upset price £11,014 3 6
The Teinds of Mousewald are valued at 2301. ISs. Sd.
sterling, and are nearly exhausted ; and the Teinds of
Rockhallhead and Carthat are valued at 181. I4s. 4d.
1-sth and surrendered to the minister. The whole lands
hold of the Crown for payment of an elusory blench duty.
The Estate of Mousewald has a southern exposure ;
and, excepting the Moss above-mentioned, is wholly under
cultivation, the soil of a considerable portion of it being
of the highest quality. In point of situation, its advan-
tages are numerous, being on both sides of the upper and
lower lines of the Dumfries and Annan road, along which
the Carlisle and Port-Patrick mail, the Carlisle, Glasgow,
and Edinburgh stages pass daily, and by which there is
the greatest thoroughfare of cattle in Scotland. There
belongs to the estate a tract of moss of about SOO Acres
in extect, lying towards the river Lochar, which, on re-
moval of a mill, would, it is well known, be rendered very
valuable land, and afford a great increase to the rental.
The best Lime quarry in the county is within five miles.
Lead has been found on the estate ; and as smelting places
are still visible, there is every reason to think this metal
has been worked on it at a former period..
The whole lands are moderately rented. The rents
are well paid, and setting every capability of improve-
ment out of view, the upset price has be, fixed so low
that a purchaser would at entry draw neari 'y four per cent.
for his money.
The articles of Roup and Title Deeds v rill be seen in
the office of Mr. John Pringle, Depute-Clerk of Session ;
and for further particulars application Mt ty be made to
William Paul and Lindsay Mackersy, Accountants, Howe-
street, Edinburgh
; Wm. Stewart, Writer to the Signet,
40, Northumberland-street, Edinburgh ; or ti
Tbreshie, junior, Writer, Dumfries. May 22, 1830.

It is understood that Sir THOMAS LETH-
BRIDGE does not intend to offer himself again as a candi-
date for the representation of this county, a determination
which will be received with regret by a considerable portion
of the county. As Mr. GORDON, from his now holding
the shrievalty, is incapacitated from being elected, there is
no obstacle to Mr. E. A. SANFORD'S filling the vacancy
occasioned by Sir T. LETHBRIDGE'S resignation should
the next election take place before March, 1831.
CONFESSION OF A COACH-PORTER.--,"
ordered this patient (JOSEPH ADAMS, described as a
squinting odd-looking fellow, aged 44, who had been ad-
mitted into St. Thomas's Hospital for inflammatory head-
ache) another venesection on the 30th, on which day he
begged me to allow him such a little delicacy as a phea-
sant or a pigeon—and, on my telling him it was out of
my power to treat him so handsomely, he said he did not
mean that I should provide him with them, but if I would
allow him to eat them, he would procure them himself.—
When I expressed my surprise at this, he gave me a very
cunning look, and said he was in the carrying line, took
parcels from stage-coaches to gentlemen's houses, and game
among the rest ; and that a pheasant or a pigeon or two
could not help being lost now and then. lat once under-
stood him, but still there was this difficulty, that lie was
now in the hospital, and not engaged in practice.
but you know, Sir,' said he, ' I have got several friends
in the same line.' I however would not permit him to
eat any sort of animal food, and, between being tired of
low diet and ashamed of what he had divulged, he disap-
peared before my next visit."— TheLancet.—Dr. Elliot-
son's Lecture.

A deliberate and singular act of self-destruc-
tion occurred in Worcester on Monday. Between six and
seven o'clock in the morning, a man named EDWARD
DAVIES,' a glove-cutter, threw himself into the Severn,
and was drowned. It appeared from the evidence adduced
at the inquest, that the unfortunate man had fallen a victim
to unrequited lore! He was nearly sixty years of age,
and a widower, and, for some period, had been the earnest
suitor of a female, a pauper in the house of industry, and
fort✓ years his junior. .She, however, scornfully rejected
his proffered attentions. Her " unfeeling conduct," it
seems, was frequently the subject of conversation between
him and a fellow-workman named JOAN PERKINS, in the
course of which DaviEs would often introduce the ques-
tion as to what was the easiest mode of death, and it was
only at the latter period of last week it was decided by
them in favour of drowning! Having on Sunday, while
in conversation with PERKINS, been passed by the girl, the
object of his adoration, without her deigning to take the
slightest notice of him, lie passed the remainder of the day
in a state of utter distraction, and the next morning was
urged to seek oblivion of his sorrows in the " deep bosom"
of the Severn. The Jury returned a verdict of " Tempo-
rary insanity."

Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from the
proprietors of lead ndnes in Derbyshire, against any
increase of duties upon lead.
Mr. MOORE presented a petition from the
county of Armagh against any increase of duties on
stamps in Ireland.
Mr. H. GRATTAN supported the prayer of the
petition. Nothing, in his opinion,- could be produc-
tive of more mischief to that country than putting
further shackles on Newspapers and Advertisements.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Kil-
kenny. He fully ag►reed in the prayer of the petition,
and hoped gentlemen from Ireland would oppose
all estimates that were brought forward to levy ad-
ditional burthens on that country.
Mr. JONES presented a petition from a place in
Wales, against any alteration in the Welch Judi-
cature.

Mr. W. SMII H presented a petition from the
Dissenters of Londonderry and Belfast, against taking
of oaths.

11Ir. FYLI-4:R. presented a petition from Coventry,
against the Scotch and Irish Paupers Removal
Bill.

STAGE COACHES.

The Stage Coach Proprietors' Bill passed through
a Committee, the report was brought up, and
ordered to be taken ►nto further consideration► on
Tuesday next.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to
bring in a Bill for the establishment of an efficient
police in Scotland. ,

The County Rates Bill passed through a Corn-
mittee.—Report ordered to be received on Tuesday.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-
CHEQUER, the Assessed Taxes' Composition Bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be re-com-
mitted on Monday next.
COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE,
the Report on the Court of Sessions Bid was
brought up and re-considered, and the Bill ordered
to be re-committed.

On the motion for going into a Committee,
Mr. C. FbItGUSSON expressed his satisfaction
that nothing was to be done to alter the laws of
ScoCond. lie eulogised the Court of Session, and
stated that it was with regret he consented to make
an alteration in the establishment of that Court.—
The Hon. Member also entered into a history of
that Court, and of the various alterations it had un-

dergone, and of the attempts which had been made
to alter it. One great alteration was effected in
1815, when the trial by Jury was introduced in
civil cases. The people, however, were not yet re-
conciled to that institution, and in many cases would
be glad to dispense with it. Looking at their views
he wished that some endeavours might be made to
meet them; and he shoUld propose, when the two
parties agreed to go before a Judge, that the Judge
should have the power to hear proof, and to give a
decision, and his decision should have all the effect
of a verdict by a Jury. By this means, he thought
the parties would not be exposed to the uncertainty
which sometimes belonged to the decisions of a
Jury. They would have the facts of their case in-
vestigated, and be certain that the law. would be
properly applied. He hoped that some regulation
of this kind might be adopted. It was objected to
the Bill also by some persons, involving by it such
important interests, that a sufficiency of time
had not been allowed to make it known to
those who, by their learning and station, were
best able to decide on its merits. The difference
of opinion on the subject perplexed him ; for
though :he was ready to adopt the principle of the
Bill, be ,was compelled to hesitate when hp found
all the learned and practical men of Scotland against
it. Both the Faculty of Advocates and the Writers
to the Signet—the two great bodies of practical
lawyers in Scotland—had given opinions against it.
One of the objects of the Bill was, to reduce the
number of Judges in the Court of Session, and
against this the Writers to the Signet had delivered
a decided opinion. In their judgment, a reduction
in the number of Judges ought not to be made till
it was proved that the present were more than
enough to get through the business before them.
The Lords Ordinary being at present seven in num-
ber, appeared not to be more than competent to
the despatch of business. If, therefore, two of the
Lords Ordinary were taken away, reducing the
Judges from fifteen to thirteen, a greater burden
would be laid on the remainder than they could bear,
and the business before the Lords Ordinary, which
was now much in arrear, would fall still farther back.
At present the arrears extended over one year, and
causes that were now entered would have no chance
of being decided for a whole twelvemonth. Nobody•
could pretend that this was rights and he was sure
that the Learned Lord would admit that it was
wrong. He wished that before any thing had
been done on the subject, a Commission had been
appointed by the Crown to inquire into the prc-
posed improvements. A Commission did sit, in
1823, and it had not considered that a reduction in
the number of Lords of Session was necessary. He
declared that there had not been time to con-
sider a Bill of such importance, and a few months
did not suffice to enable men to ascertain what
would be the consequences of a change in -the Su-
preme Court. He should be glad were the country
allowed more time to consider the measure before it
was carried into effect. He did not blame the
Learned Lord, who, having brought in the Bill,
probably felt himself compelled to carry it through;
and whatever might be its result, there was not a
man in the country who would doubt his great disin-
terestedneas, and his zeal to bring this measure to a
happy conclusion. The two bodies he had already
referred to were also against the introduction of the
trial by Jury, so far as to compel the parties to have
recourse to it whether they liked it or not. They
had met and considered the Bill, and he would state
their opinions of the separate parts of it. The Ad-
vocates there objected to the reduction of Lords Or-
dinary : they were hostile to it on account of the
pressure of business at present, which, they stated,
would be increased by the abolition of the Commis.
sary Courts and of the Admiralty Court, which
would throw more business on the Supreme Court,
The opinions of these gentlemen were entitled to
great respect; they were engaged in the Courts, and
no persons were better able to form correct opinions
on the subject. The Writers to the Signet also
stated the heavy arrears before the Lords Ordinary.
Ought not the House to pause, then, before it
agreed on a measure which was calculated both to
augment the business of the Supreme Court, and
diminish its means of accomplishing its duties. With
respect to the trial by Jury both parties were against
it. The Advocates said it ought not to be com-
pulsory. They would have causes tried before.
the Judges when both parties agreed to that;
but the Writers to the Signet went further—fm-
ther than he would go—•for they said that when the
parties were not agreed to have recourse to the
Judge, when only one of them desired to forego
the trial by Jury, they would allow the cause to be
tried by a Judge without a Jury. Another point on
which these bodies had given an opinion, was the
unanimity of the Jury. They were averse from
adopting the principle of the English law—that the
Jury must be unanimous. He would not enter
into this question, which was a metaphysical one;
he would only say that he could not understand the
magical process by which shutting up twelve men
who were of different opinions should bring them
all to be of the same opinion. It seemed to be
better to allow a majority to decide the verdict.
He was sure that such a principle indeed would not
answer in Scotland. By a late law/ the Jury ware
to be discharged at the end of twelve hours if they
could not agree, and he was sure many a Scotcl,
Juryman would willingly undergo any sort of priva-
tion for twelve hours to carry a point, or even for
24 hours, if it were a point in which his conscience
was involved. This had been proved on a late
trial, where, after being shut up for twelve hours,
the Jury had ben discharged without coming to
any decision. The parties had been put to an
enormous expence, and for no other purpose than
to be sent before another Jury, who, after putting
them to as much additional expence, might be again
discharged without coming to any decision. He would
propose that the rule adopted in criminal cases should
be extended to civil, for the Scotch had already
trial by Jury in such cases, and in them a simple ma-
jority was sufficient to decide on life and liberty.
Perhaps a simple majority should not be sufficient
to condemn a man to punishment—perhaps the
majority should be two-thirds, but it would be sin-
gular, if the English principle should be carried into
practice in Scotland—that in civil cases the Jury
must be unanimous, while in criminal cases a simple
majority was sufficient. He hoped that a clause
would be introduced, allowing a verdict to be found
by a simple majority in civil causes. There was an-
other objection to the trial by Jury, in which both
the Learned Bodies concurred, derived from the
mode of addressing them. In England it was cus-
tomary for the plaintiff first to address the Jury, and
then bring forward his witnesses; after which
the defendant addressed the Jury, and brought
forward his witnesses ; and it was a great
point, that if the defendant examined no witnesses,
the plaintiff lost his right to reply. The consequence
of this was, that very often material facts were left
out, or the law was unexplained by the Counsel to
the Jury. In Scotland the practice was different.
After the case was opened, and all the witnesses
examined, both the Counsel had a right to address
the Court. This was, in his opinion, also a better
plan than the English mode. The objections he
had hitherto stated were made by the two Learned
Bodies he had alluded to. He would then state
another objection of his own. The Bill proposed
to reduce the number of Judges, and to transfer to
the Supreme Court, in conjunction with the Sheriffs'
Courts, the business of the Admiralty Court and
the Commissary Courts, To the Sheriffs' Courts,

r hrissleeadrn oin ng thea n
c'i 'spot.
their: law from the highest Yr... p
and should, on no account, reside`ifflne-t,.
he was to be the Judge. But the Judge of the
hTSehheewriaBffsh'sseeriClffecoptueredti,s)uiitnnedSweecados, generally
a learned lawyer;
talents, and he resided where he ought to reside—
near the Supreme Court. But the Sheriff Depute
did not try causes. By the Scotch system, all the
evils of a resident Judge, without any of the ad-
vantages, were inflicted on the country. The
Sheriff Substitute, who tried the causes, was' not
obliged to possess any one qualification; he was ap-
pointed by the Sheriff Depute; and he might select
any person he chose. The business before the
Sheriffs' Court ought, since it was made so im-
portant, to be regulated and simplified, end he
wished he could engraft into the Bill then under
consideration the clause introduced into a Bill last
year by the Honourable Member for Stirlingshire,
and make the whole of the proceedings before these
Courts at once simple and cheap. At present, iu a
case of 101. value, there was a written statement
of the case, to which the defender put in a written
reply, and that was followed by a du-ply. But then
the Judge did not try the case. The du-ply was
followed by a condescendence, and the condescend-
ante was followed by en answer, which carried the
case before the Judge.. If be were not satisfied, he
ordered other proceedings. A proof was taken, not,
however, by the Judge, but by his clerk; and then
the Judge considered the matter for decision. But
he might require further proof, and the lawyers were
not indisposed to multiply writings till all parties
became bewildered, and the Judge, when the time
arrived to decide, was at a loss which way he ought
to give judgment. The parties ought to be re-,
quired to make each a statement, and that alone
should be the basis of the judgment. He did net
make these remarks with any view to individuals.
He knew many Sheriffs' Substitutes, who were men
of learning, honour, and integrity, in whose hands
he would fearlessly trust his own cause; but he obs
to the system. He would have the Sheriff Depute
to be the Judge, and he should try all the causes,
Under the present system, too, the Sheriffs' Substi-
tute could not perform all the duties imposed on
them, without having their emoluments increased.
As to the reductions of the Barons of the Exchequer,
to that there was no opposition, though he thought
the utility of this Court, or at least theutility it might
be made of, was overlooked. By the transfer of
the business from the Court of Admiralty to the
Court of Session, the expence would be increased,
he believed, four times ; and the delay would be
four times as great. This was, in his view, a
very serious objection, as the great object of the
improvements ought to be to make justice cheap,
not dear. Then there were the Commissary Courts,
which decided or settled all questions of marriage
and divorce, of legitimacy or illegitimacy. The
four Judges of which this Court consisted,
though they did not all sit together, but in succession,
had given. satisfaction to the people of Scotland for
upwards of three hundred years. Before them the
cause was not publicly heard, and the unhappiness of
families was not sounded in the public ear. There
were none of those disgusting, scandalous details,
three times repeated, as in England, to pollute
public morality, till at length they came before that
and the other House of Parliament.—(Hear, bear.)
The expence saved by the abolition of this Court„
for which two Judges would be sufficient, would not
be more than 1,2001., and for that, in his opinion,
an evil would be inflicted on the people of Scotland.
It was said, indeed, that most of the cases of di-
vorce decided by the Commissary Court were cases
of collusion, but this he did not believe. In many tai
the cases—such, for example, as a case of cruelty art
the part of the husband—there could be no collu-
sion. They had been told by the Lord Advocate
that a great number of the cases of divorce brought
before the Courts were cases of collusion. He re-
peated that lie denied this ; but even if they were
cases of collusion, lie was satisfied that the plan of
the Lord Advocate with respect to the manner of
taking evidence in such cases would tend to increase
the cases of collusion, rather than-to diminish them,
and to add so much to the expence as to deprive the
poorer classes of the power of obtaining a divorce.
He objected alio to the system of general appeals,
which he considered' most pernicious, and which he
perceived the present Bill went to encourage. It
was a fact well known that some of the best
grounded and most satisfactory de&sions of the
Court of Session had been reversed on appeal to
the House of Lords in this country. This was
a state of things calculated to do great mischief ;
and he, in the name of the people of Scotland,
implored the Right Hon. Secretary (Sir R. Peel)
to adopt some measures for placing in conjunction
with the Learned Lord who presided in the House
of Lords, a Judge possessed of knowledge in the
law of Scotland, and calculated by his experience,
if not to direct, at least to advise with and assist
him in the disposal of Scotch Appeals. After same
other observations on this subject, tending to chew
that the suitors of the Scotch Courts were fre.
quently disposed, from these reversions of acknow
ledged just decisions, to take the chance of an Ap-
peal to the House of Lords, the Hon. Member
concluded by declaring that he should not oppose
the Speaker's leaving the Chair, although he had
many objections to the clauses, which he must take
leave to state again in the Committee.
Sir M. STEWART would not attempt to fol-
low his Hon. and Learned Friend through his able
and elaborate statement, with some of which lie con-.
cursed, and from some parts of which he dissented
entirely; but to the whole of which, he doubted
not, the Lord Advocate would give due conside-
ration; and reserving any observations he (Sir M.
Stewart) had to make upon the details of the Bill
till the House went into a Committee upon it, he
wished, before the Speaker left the chair, to say a
few words with the view of shortening discussion
at far as he was concerned in the Committee; but
having received numerous communications on
the subject of the Bill, not only from the
county which he had the honour of represent-
ing, but from different parts and communities
in Scotland—he felt it his duty to give a very short
explanation of his views and intentions, before
going into Committee on the Bill; as those communi-
cations were not wily various in their kind, but con-
tradictory in some respects in their nature, he should
take leave to exercise his own judgment and discre-
tion on the subject, and in conformity with un-
doubtedly the great majority of the communications,
he should certainly support the Learned Lord's Bill,
and he sincerely wished to see it pass into a law
during this Session of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)—
For although it did not, he was perfectly well
aware, by any means comprise all the ame-
liorations in the administration of justice that
were so much required, and so impatiently
demanded by the people of Scotland ; and
although it did not regulate and adjust the constitu-
tion of the Courts as to the Judges in the manner
he hoped ere long to see it effected, by reducing
their number to twelve, and by the abolition of the
Lords Ordinary altogether, and dividing the twelve
Judges into three different and co-ordinate Courts in
all respects, and making them a Court of Appeal
from each division, which he was satisfied would he
attended with vast pecuniary savings arid legal ad-
vantages to the people of Scotland—( flear,heas)—
yet the Bill contained such ‘considerable curtail-
ments- in respect to the Judges, as we,ll US such
great improvements and alterations, at the ex-
tension of trial by Jury and other IPPort"nc

that he felt desirous
'urther delay, become a
administration of jus-
dom—(Hear, hear)—
the more readily, al-
tar all that was indis-
le was aware of the
d's views, and of those
d of their readiness at
and candidly to con-
d communications of
1 parts of this truly
cotland—(Hear, hear)—
_,earned Lord would, during
earliament go into a considera-

Important parts orthe subject not in-
-...uett (and that could not be included) in his Bill,
but to which his notice had been already drawn by
documents, in the shape of public remonstrance, from
different counties in Scotland, and to which he
doubted not his attention would be more earnestly
directed by a more general and decided expression
of public opinion before the next Session of Parlia-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)—He could not, he was per-
suaded, more briefly or clearly touch upon those
points to which he, more particularly alluded, and
upon which all the communications lie had received
bore more or less, than by reading to the House
a few of the short but excellent resolutions of the
county of Ross, and of the Merchants' House of Glas-
gow, and which, in fact, and in substance, were the
resolutions of all Scotland.—(Hear )—The Hon.
Member here read some resolutions to the effect,
that the forms and language in the proceedings in all
law Courts should be abridged and simplified. That
cheapness and despatch, combined with practice,
would be secured by curtailing the vast accumula-
tion.of written pleadings, and viva voce pleadings
introduced as far as possible in their stead.—(Hear.)
That the oppressive fee fund should be done away.
That the charges of legal practitioners are a source
of great, expense and complaint, and ought to be
remedied. That conveyancing should be divested
of its absurd technicalities. That instruments of
sasein, an expensive and absurd form, should be
abolished. That heritable and personal bonds should
be transferable by simple indorsation. That the
powers of arbitration and the inventory duties
should be revised, as well as all law charges.—( Hear,
Lear.)—He trusted and expected that the Learned
Lord would, early in the next Session of Par-
liament, appoint a Parliamentary Committee (or the
regulation of law charges, and especially of the
charges in conveyancing, so loudly and justly com-
plained of by the people of Scotland; and which it
now appeared from a return lately made to the
House, were exacted without any competent or
settled authority whatever.—( Hear, hear.)—He
would only now further say, that as a preliminary
measure, lie was satisfied the Learned Lord's Bill
would be productive of great practical good; and
although he might, in the Committee, make some
observations upon parts of it with the view to what
he presumed to think amendments, he would, with
this general understanding and imperfect explana-
tion, give the Bill his decided support.—(Hear.)
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER complained
that time bad not been given to consider the effect
of all the clauses of the Bill, and recommended the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) most strongly
to allow it to stand over until next Session. They
had now reached the 18th of June. Many of,those
interested in the question had left town, and he
really thought it would be better to postpone the
discussion on a subject of so much importance at
that late period of their sittings. When be saw a
proposition of this kind brought forward for the in-.
crease of the number of the Judges, and for general
alterations in the Courts, he could not help having
some suspicion that there was an intention to in-
crease the public expenses. He had asked the Right
Hon. Baronet a question on that subject on a former
occasion, but he had not yet received a satisfactory

answer.

Sir R. PEEL recollected very well the question
of the Hon. Baronet, and had- some recollection of
having replied to that question in the affirmative.
At all events he had no hesitation in saying now,
that it was intended to increase the salaries of the
Scotch Judges, and he believed the impression of
the Government that such an increase had become
necessary, was shared by a great portion of those
acquainted with the subject. He begged the Hon.
Baronet to understand, however, that although the
salaries of the Judges were to be increased, this Bill
was not a consequence of that, nor was that increase
the foundation of this, so that the Hon. Baronet
would very safely consent to support the Bill with-
out pledging himself to the question of the increase
of salary when it came to be proposed.
Mr. MAXWELL (of Renfrew) supported the
pill, although be thought some of the clauses might'
be altered with advantage.
Mr. HUME could not allow the opportunity to
pass by, without bearing his testimony to the quiet
patient, and highly-creditable manner in which the
Lord Advocate, under many difficulties, had worked
his way in promoting the objects of this Bill, and in
bringing it to maturity. He perceived, however,
that it reduced two of the Barons of the Scotch
Exchequer. Now, the Secretary of State (Mr.
Peel) must have known that these two Judges were
to be reduced, at the time lie appointed a Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Abercrombie) to the vacant office
of Lord Chief Baron ; and he really thought the
country had reason to complain of a waste of the
publie money, in thus giving away 40001. a year,
itt a time he must have known such changes were
in contemplation.
Mr, BROUGHAM agreed in all that had been
said of the praise due to the Lord Advocate, and
thought that the Government also deserved great
credit for the honest and disinterested manner in
which it had consented to abandon a very consider-
able patronage for the sake of an improvement in
the administration of the laws.
The LORD ADVOCATE, in reply, should
feel obliged to any gentleman of Scotland who would
favour him with suggestions en the subject of the
improvements 1w contemplated, and that if they
(would send him in their suggestions in writing, he
would either adopt them, or state in writing the
reasons which influenced him in rejecting them.
The House then resolved itself into the Commit-
tee on the Bill, in which the various clauses were
discussed, seriatim, by Mr. Fergusson, the Lord
Advocate, Mr. Home Drummond, the Solicitor-
General, Mr. Hume, Sir Robert Peel, end Mr.
Brougham; and several verbal amendments were
introduced into them.

The clause having been agreed to for abolishing
the Admiralty Court,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM dwelt on the injury
which would be sustained by the Procurators who
had practised in that Court ; and proposed a clause
by which they should be allowed to practise in the
Court of Session, the Ecclesiastical Court, the
Sheriff's Court, &c.
The LORD ADVOCATE had proposed a
clause to allow the Procurators of the Court of
Admiralty to practise in the Court of Session 2nd
other higher Courts, but he could not consent to
allow them to pract se in the Sheriff's Court and in
the inferior Courts, because, by their competition,
they would injure those who already practised in
those Courts.

Mr. H UME and Mr. BROUGHAM supported'
the clause as proposed by Sir James Graham.
Sir GEORGE CLERK, Mr. HOME DRUMMOND, and
the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, apposed it.
Eventually Sir JAMES GRAHAM would not
press his clause, but would acquiesce in the pro-
posal of the Lord Advocate.
On the Clause respecting the Court of Session
being put,
Mr. BItOUGHANI—You suggest that at least
one English barrister should be appointed to sit in
that Court, as an assessor, to assist the other Judges
in coming to a decision respecting points of law,
Nvhieli were of daily occurrence in Westminster
Ilan. Care should be taken that he was not a man
tot much wedded to his own opinions; while he,
at s the same time, possessed the necessa9, exp!.
Stance and knowledge to enable him to diteet his

brethren in all matters relating to trial by Jury.
He also thought it would be desirable to abolish
altogether written pleadings in the Sheriff's Courts,
urd to have all issues of facts tried by Jury. And
this, lie contended, wou!d be no innovation on the
Scotch law; trial by Jury was recognised as the
original form of judicial proceeding in the Scottish
Courts, in cases civil as well as criminal. Now,
as to the changes contemplated in the Scottish
Courts, his idea was to abolish the office of Lords
Ordinary, and all the practice of the outer Cham-
ber, and to have twelve Judges divided amongst
three Courts—four to each ; and that these Courts
should be severally competent to try all cases in the
first instance. Thus would they have all the ad-
vantages, and none of the disadvantages, attending
the distribution of the Judges in Westminster Hall.
He was likewise anxious to interpose an interme-
diate Court of Review between the House of Lords
and the Courts below. These alterations would,
he confidently expected, put an end to the great
mass of appeal business. _ _

The LORD ADVOCATE remarked that there
would be great difficulty in inducing any English
Barrister possessing the necessary qualifications, to
accept of a seat upon the Scottish Bench. He con-
sidered that the plan of his Hon. and Learned
Friend was in many other respects exceptionable.
The clause was agreed to.

Mr. FERGUSSoN proposed that the clause
restricting the powers of the Commissary Court
should he omitted.
The LORD ADVOCATE defended the clause.

After a short conversation, in which Mr.
BROUGHAM, Si: R. PEEL, and the LORD ADVO-
CATE took_part, the clause was agreed to without
a division.

The House then resumed, and the report was or-
dered to be received on Monday next.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL.

On the motion of the: ATTORNEY-GENERAL
on the Order of the Day for the further considera-
tion of this Bill—

Mr. JONES should oppose this Bill with refer-
ence to its introduction into Wales. In the first
place he objected to the proposed addition to the
number of Judges. The supporters of the Bill were
not agreed among themselves upon that point, for
the Attorney-General said, that as the number of
Welsh Judges was to be reduced, that of the Eng-
lish Judges ought to be increased; while the Right
Hon. Secretary for the Home Department put the
argument the other way, and said, that as there
was to be an addition to the number of English
Judges, who could perform the business of the
Welsh Circuits, the number of the Welsh Judges
might be diminished. He did think, even with re-
ference to England, that before three new Judges
were added to the number, while there was one
Court almost without business, a very strong case
ought to be made out for their appointment. This
Bill was against the wishes of the Principality. He
objected most decidedly to the clause provided for
the consolidation of the counties by the order of
the King, assisted with the advice of his Privy
Council; it gave an unconstitutional degree of
power to the Executive Government, and he was
astonished that such a clause should have come
from men professing liberal Whig principles. In
this respect the Bill copied the provisions of an Act
of Henry VIII. and the part copied was the most ob-
jectionable part of the Statute. In commenting
upon that Statute, Lord Coke said that the power
given by that clause was a most monstrous power.
But bad as that clause was, it was not so bad as
the clause in the present Bill; for in the Statute of
Henry VIII. the power was confined to the then
reigning Monarch, and the word " Successor" was
omitted; but in the Bill now before the House that
word was introduced, and its introduction extended
a power which he was disposed to look upon with
much jealousy, and that ought, if greeted at all, to
have been limited to the life of the Monarch on
whom it was conferred. He did not believe that the
present Ministry would abuse the power thus con-
ferred on them ; but he could not so well answer
for the intentions and conduct of any future Mi-
nistry, who might use it most vexatiously, provided
it would tend to increase the extent of their power
and influence. He would suppose that Caermarthen,
or any other town, sent a Representative to Parlia-
ment, and that in the discharge of what he conceived
to be his duty that Representative gave offence to the
Ministry, they might revenge themselves by taking
away the Assizes from the town he represented, and
give them to another at some distance from it; and
this they might do under pretence of the necessity
for consolidating the counties for the better admi-
nistration of justice. But there were other objec-
tions to the Bill, arising from the evils that must
follow the introduction of the present system of ad-
ministration of justice into Wales. The Hon. and
Lsarned Member for Knaresborough had shown that
by the law, as it now stood in England, it was not
worth the while of any man to sue another for a less
sum than 50/., and he justly complained oft hat as a
great evil in Wales; on the contrary, people scarcely
ever had to sue for a sum so large as 501., for they
could safely bring an action for a much less sum,
since their costs would hardly amount to more than
I/., a system which, in his opinion, was one of as
cheap as he knew it was of speedy justice. Then
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough said, that one
of the evils of the present system in England was,
that it occasioned great expense in the conveyance
of the witnesses to a distant assize town, and their
maintenance there. The complaint was well founded;
yet that very evil would be occasioned to the Welsh
if the object of the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the
consolidation of counties was to be carried into effect,
for the counties could not be consolidated without the
assize town being removed to a greater distance than
at present from the borders of the county. Another
evil would result from the use of the English system
of pleading. At present sham pleas were unknown in
the Welsh Courts; for, as the pleadings were framed
under the eyes of the Judges of the Court, they'
took care to admit no sham plea; and if any was
attempted to be introduced they stopped it at once,
by requiring its verification on oath. He contended,
therefore, that, in every respect, the Welsh system
of the administration of justice would be rather de-
teriorated than improved by the operation of this
Bill. Besides this, the Welsh were satisfied with
the present system of Judicature; and in proof of
that assertion he might mention that the number of
Welsh causes tried in English counties bad been an-
nually diminishing in each of the last ten years, and j
that in the last year only 22 Welsh causes (in-
eluding those of Chester) were tried in the English
Assize Courts. The objections to subjecting the
Welsh to the English equitable jurisdiction were
greater than those which applied to their being put
under the jurisdiction of the Common Law Courts.
If a Welsh farmer was made the legatee of a sum
of 201., was be to be subjected to the necessity of
instituting a suit in Chancery for the recovery of his
legacy ? He trusted that no such evil might be in-
flicted on them. The present plan was to send
them from tribunals which confessedly worked well,
to others which, by universal consent, required
much amendment. He hoped that Ministers, there-
fore, would pause before they changed the system,
in order to ascertain more completely the wishes of
the people of the Principality. He moved that the
Bill he re-committed on this day six months.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY opposed the Bill with
great regret, because it purported to be a measure of
legal reform. He objected to the creation of three
new Judgeships; and if there were tiny foundation
for the resistance ()tiered to the Bill for appointing
one additional Equity Judge, how much more rea-
son wag there for objecting to the nomination of
three new Cornr,lon Law Judges ? If the Bill of
the Hon. Member for Knareshorough were to pass,
forming fifty new local jurisdictions, any chapgs: of
this kind would be quite unnecessary. 'lt was true
that the Court of King's Bench was overwhelmed
with business, but the Court of Common Pleas had
not its average share, and the Court of Exchequer
might be almost said to have nothing to do; so that
the four Barons must he looked upon as legal pen-
sioners. A return on the table showed that the
timber of causes brought before the King's Pena;

within a certain period, amounted to 11,000, wir
:n the Common Pleas they were only 3000, and n
the Exchequer no more than 1,000. He recon.
mended that some officer should be appointed to
select the issues to be compulsorily tried in each
Court; for if the business were properly divided, the
present number of Judges would be sufficient. A do-
cument upon the table, entitled " A return of the
total number of causes tried in 1826, 1827, and 1828."
presented some extraordinary results, of which, he
believed, Hon. Members were not aware. The
ciuses in which verdicts had been given were 5,655,
and the amount of damages in the Posteas was
836,3931., or, on the average, some few shillings
more than 150/. for each cause; while the amount
of damages in 5,655 causes was 836,3931. The sum
paid for taxed costa in the same causes, was no less
than 1,205,0004 ; so that the expence (without de-
ductir, 25 per cent. for taxation) considerably ex-
ceeded tlie sum recovered by the verdicts.--(Hear,
hear.) lie was therefore satisfied that those who
brought in this Bill were beginning reform at the
wrong end ; it was idle to appoint new Judges until
some more economical and prompt administration of
justice had been established; it was merely giving
new patronage to the Crown, without any substantial
benefit to the people. His great objection to the
Bill befure the House was, that it was premature ;
the question ought first to be decided whether the
fifty new local jurisdictions were to be established ;
if they were established, the quantity of business
in Westminster-hall must be diminished, and the
three new Judges could on no pretence be required.
The equalisation of the Circuits was an important
point, and would be attended with very considerable
advantage and relief to those Judges who had at
present the hardest duties.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR agreed that it was a great
evil for Judges to have seats in the House of Com-
mons, and to look up to Ministers for further advance-
ment; but he maintained that the Barons of the
Exchequer were fully competent to their duties, and
discharged them with great learning arid exemplary
industry. He supported a Bill, the object of which
was to bring the Welsh counties within the English
jurisdiction.

Mr. E. DAVENPORT concurred with the Hon.
Member for Colchester that this Bill was prema-
ture. He particularly resisted the proposed inva-
sion of the rights of the County. Palatine of Chester.
He also resisted the plan for uniting counties in
Wales, and giving the Attorney-General the power
to stick his compasses into any part of the map of
the Principality, and to make out new arrondisse-
ments. For these and other reasons he trusted that
he was justified in opposing the principle of the Bill,
as it was not a preventing but a destroying principle.
Sir R. PEEL objected to the details of the Bill
having so much been entered into, when the real
point that they had to discuss was the principle of
the Bill. After the repeated complaints of delay,
and the unanimous vote of that House for an Ad-
dress to the Crown for a Commission to inquire
into this crying evil, the course now pursued was
certainly an extraordinary one. Now that the in-
quiry had been instituted, and the report had been
made, they were asked to begin the inquiry over
again, and by persons who he would venture to say,
had never read the report at all. This, however,
was the constant course now pursued : for inquiry
they had clamour; and when the time for inquiry
had gone by, then fresh inquiry was called for. He
would, however, ask Hon. Gentlemen before they
decided against the principle of this Bill, to advert
a little to the facts of the case. The first inquiry of
the Commission was with respect to the Courts of
Common Law; and, with reference to the Court of
King's Bench alone, it appeared that there had,
within five years, been begun in that Court no less
than 281,000 causes. In the year 1823 the num-
ber was 43,000; in 1826 it was 69,000; and in
1827 it was 66,000. The exertions beyond doubt
were very great, but at the same time the accumu-
lation of business was excessive. With respect to
the Common Pleas, also, there was an arrear of
Nisi Pubis business. The Commission, however,
was of opinion that it was not wise to tax the Judges
too much, and the remedy that they therefore pro-
posed was, that the business of the Courts should
he equalized, and that a new Judge should be added
for that purpose to each Court. If, then, these
three new Judges were appointed for the purpose of
expediting the business, the question would then
arise, whether they would be exclusively occupied
by the business thus assigned to them ; or whether,
on the other band, it would not be possible to em-
ploy them in the place of the eight Welch Judges.
If this could be done, the countryivould save the
expence of those eight Judges ; and Government
had come to the conclusion, that if these three
Judges were appointed, ihey could not ask the Par-
liament to continue eight unnecessary Judges, espe-
cially as they were of opinion that justice would he
better administered in Wales by Judges of station
and character—with those of the superior Courts of
the country—than by Judges (for whom though he
entertained tire highest respect) who held their office
tenable, with seats in Parliament, and who neces-
sarily had a great part of their time occupied as
practising barristers. But then it had been objected
that they ought riot to make this alteration, because
the people of the Principality were opposed to it.
On this subject he begged to say that no one could
speak more affectionately than he did of the Prin-
cipality of Wales, for he most unaffectedly ho-
noured the character of that Principality; nor did
lie believe that there was in any part of the empire
au example more worthy of being followed or re-
spected. But was it possible for him to read the
evidence that had been given before the Commis-
sion, and admit that this proposal was inimical to
the interests or the feelings of the Principality ?
On this occasion, be it observed, it was not any
asset tion of his that he was advancing, but a point
resting entirely on evidence before the House. On
looking over that evidence, it would appear that the
Hon. Member for Brecknock, and five of the
Chairmen of the Quarter Sessions in Wales, were
unanimously of opinion that the proposed change
would be to the benefit of the Principality. After
such evidence as this, was it fair to represent that
the people were adverse to the measure ? Or
would Government have been justified in refusing
to act on the recommendation of the Commission ?
Besides, it was a fallacy to say that the Principality
had had its local Courts, and that this Bill was
taking them away. There would be just as many
local Courts as ever, only the justice in them would
be administered by English Judges. Another point,
too, was worthy of observation, which was, that
there was in this matter a considerable sacrifice on
the part of the Government; for if they were in-
clined to appoint Judges merely for the sake of pa-
tronage, then Welch Judgeships were the very
ones in which they were safe, as they were more
withdrawn from the public notice. The Govern-
ment, however, not only proposed to relinquish
those offices, but also all tire patronage and ma-
chinery that went along with them. It was not,
however, his intention to enter into details on this
occasion ; the principle wae.now before the House,
and he trusted that it would feel that after a Com-
mission had been appointed at its own request, it
was not quite decorous to refuse to give his Hon.
Friend an opportunity of more fully explaining the
expected operation of the Bill.
Sir C. WETHERELL sad that although leave
had been giver! for bringing in this Bill, it was no
more than giving leave for the bringing of a sheet
of blank paper, so much was the Bill altered from
its original presentation. He still must contend,'
in spite of what the Right Hon. Secretary had said,
that the people of Wales were opposed to the alte-
ration ; and he must observe by the way, that tire
Chairmen of Quarter Sessions had never been held
to be the representatives of their counties. He
did not think that it was advisable to take away a
jurisdie:ion which they had enjoyed for so many
years, unless they took some means of knowing the
popular feeling on the subject; he did not mean to
say that they ought to poll or ballot the Princi-
pality ; but he should certainly be glad to know
whst Were the sentiments of the mass. His mo-
tion was, that the Bill ought to have been brought