The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

ratter of the most sublime and amiable • Christianity?
has it not spoken in behalf of the meek, of the hungry, and
thirsty, for justice sake, of the administration of justice
and no rev, and of the blessed peace makers ?—(Flear,
hear.) Those were the merits of the Sermon on the
Mount. He (Mr. O'C.) did not for a moment doubt the
divinity of it. But let them forget that divinity and con-
trast its principles with those of the Pagan philosophy of
the same time, with its self exaltation, its triumphs over
enemies, its vengeance upon those who might be in
one's power contrast thoe with the principles of
that solemn Sermon, and tell him (Mr. O'Connell) then,
could it be believed that an English nobleman of the nine-
teenth centesy would rise up and say that he found no-
thing of sublime divinity or morality in that Sermon ?
(No, no, and Hear, hear.) He ( Mr. O'Connell) bad
heard the Noble Lord say so, and it teas now published for
him, and if he were here he was sure the Noble Lord
would have the manliness to avow that he had said so.
The Noble Lord also referred to a chapter in Isaiah re-
specting.the prophecy of the Messiah, and placed a dif-
ferent construction upon it. But was not the Noble Lord
mistaken ? Would not some of them admit that the
Sscrmon on the Mount was an admirable piece of general
instruction, and might be read in harmony by Christians
of every denomination at the same time ?—( Hear, hear.)
Would it not be. the working of a mighty good to convince
all children of the wisdom and Christian obligation of prac-
tising the precepts of that Sermon ?—( Hear, hear,
Lear.) He (Mr. O'C.) was sorry that the normal
plan had been given up----he hoped it would he revived
in a better time. The Hon. Member for Sornereetshire
said that in Prusia the religious persuasions were edu-
cated apart. Now he (Mr. O'Connell) implored the
Right Hon. Baronet, who was so convinced of the superior
merit of Protestant over Catholic education, to refer to
the account of the morals of Prussia, as illustrated in the
4th chapter of the work, recently from the pen of the well-
known Chaplain cf Chelsea Hospital, the Rev. Mr. Gleig,
the author of the " Subaltern," and other talented works.
The Rev. Gentleman stated that the observance of the
Sabbath in Prussia was most exemplary, though it was
relaxed in the evening, and that the general tenor of the
lives of the Prussian Catholics was most pure. Look,
then, to Mr. Laing's book on Sweden, where the reforma-
tion was successful, where the Clergy were respected,
where education was widely spread, but where the preva-
lence of crime was dreadful. His ( Mr. O'Connell's) only
object in referring to this contrast, was not to give pain,
but to induce moderate reflections on both sides. He
would not leave education without religion. Let them be
educated together as far as they could, and then sepa-
rately, whni important religious distinctions arose. He
would caution systematizers against the inherent vices of
the system they supported. But if their plan bad in
some degree failed in Prussia, it had been completely
successful in Holland. He knew that some mistaken
fit-m.6es amongst the Calvinists in that country were de-
claring off from this general acquiescence. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Somersetshire knew the reason, but he would not tell
it. The excuse they alleged, however, was the advance of
Catholicity ; and no doubt the Catholic religion was ad-
vancing in that country as well as in this ; but was that a
reason why the experiment should not be continued ; if it
contained nothing unfair and unjust, and if it developed
pure Christian knowledge, and gave the adherents of every
persuasion an opportunity of arriving at sound convictions.
—( Hear.) But the normal plan had been given up; the
present plan merely asked for a sum of public money, not
belonging to the Established Church, which they had not.
The Hon. Member for Kent seemed to think the Catholics

came out upon him for some of his money. He said you
believe in transubstantiation, and so he (Mr. O'C.) did.
You believe in the efficacy of prayers for the dead, and so
he did ; and one of their own Judges the other day said
that it was a salutary thing to pray for the dead.—(Heart
hear, and laughter.) You believe in the sacrifice of the
mass, and therefore you want me to give you some of my
money.—( Laughter.) He (Mr. O'C.) certainly did want
money from him, but it was only some of his own. All be
wished to say to the Hon. Member was, that he believed that
he upheld some dangerous errors—that he respected his pre-
judices, however—that he did not mean to put his hand into
his pocket to take his money, but that he (Mr. O'Connell)
only humbly begged that when the Hon. Member put his
hand into his (Mr. O'Connell's) pocket to take out his,
money, that he would let him have his share.—( Hear and
laughter.) This was but common sense, and it' it were,
what was the converse but swindling and robbery ?—( Hear,
hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet talked much
about
Christianity, and he believed him ; but if he (Mr. O'Con-
nell) were to put his hand into his pocket for money for
Catholic education exclusively, would lie not call it robbery ?
He demanded only the same admission from him. He would,
however, tell the Right Hon. Baronet that he was not
wise in discussing this question—he was not wise in apply"
ing it to the Wesleyan Methodists.—( Hear, hear.) Now, to
what did this Government plan propose? It proposed
it to
take the grant, and to distribute a great portion of
a to
the National School Society, with which they Wine
be satisfied ; more than half of the money, in fact, was to
be given to this Society. No doubt they would maker 11°1
objection to that application, and he would not qrre
with the Right Hon. Baronet or the Hon. Member for
Ipswich upon that ground. Next came the British and
Foreign School Society. He did not know what they
thought of that. Oh, nosy he saw a beam on the counte-
' trance of the Right Ron. Baronet the Member for Ox-
ford, significant of his favour of the Foreign and
British School Society ; but universally the Dissen-
' ters were to receive another large portion of the
money. Su it had taken place last year, and the year
before ; but then the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire, was silent. What raised his Noble wrath
now ? It was the "No Popery" cry. He made no com-
plaint while the money was distributed between the Na-
tional School—the British and Foreign School, and the
Dissenters, but the moment-- a miserable erumb--•-the
moment a paltry remnant was proposed for the instruc-
tion 0f the Catholics, the Noble Lord rose in his place
and cried out against it. The lion. Member for Maid-
' gone complained of the manner in which tbo Govern-
ment brought forward the question, but the question was
not brought forward by the Government; but by the Noble
• Lord opposite, in moving the resolution to get rid of the order
for going into the Committee of Supply. The Noble Lord
wished to get rid of the four Noblemen who would superintend
the di t-ibu i n. The Hon. Member for Lambeth had justly
said that he had never heard a speech of such bitterness or
malignity as that which the Noble Lord had made against
any grant to the Catholics. He (Mr. O'Connell) had
already shown the trickery and delusion practised in the
' petitions. The Noble Lord had claimed the powers in
ordinary, and in referring to the French passage in the
reign of Henry IV., he chou'd have blush 0:11'; from tie time
Pope Gregory IV. sent Austin the Monk- to convert his
ancestors, to •the time of Henry IV., not a single law
against dissent or freedom in religious life was passe'
—( Hear, hear, hear.) Then in that reign was roll
the infamous statute °' De Heritico Comburendo, on
the otherwise illustrious William of Wykeham, who, but
for his conduct then, would have been long since canon'
ized among the Saints, disgraced himself by condemning
[ the heretics, while the act consumed them by slow fire.
William of Wykeham, however, carried cut his principles;
r he did not act half way en them, as the Right Honourable
' Barcnet did. It is said (continued the lion. and Learned
Member) that the Established Church is so triumphant in
its numbers that it ought to engross all the State bounty
Now I like statistics, Before the Reformation there were
97,000 places of worship in England, with one-third of the
' present population and one-twentieth of the wealth. What
has h ippened since, with all your reformation and all your
zeal ? Why the number of Churches in the Establishment'.
is 11,825 ; there are no parliamentary documents showil
• the number cf Dissenting meeting houses, but from ea
euhstions I have seen, I believe the number, including
chapels, to be 8,716; the proportion of nine to
twelve ; taking the population of England at 14,00000'
according to the last census, there are only 8,000,000. be-
longing to the Establishment; 6.000 000 Dissenters an
• Catholics. Between Ireland and Scotland there were
8,009,000 Dissenters and Catholics; and scarcely 1,000,000
of the Esteblishment ; so that altogether there were
1-1,0:!0,000 dissentients to 9,000,000 Conformist=.—( Hear'
hoer.) And do you suppose that the relative numbers °‘t
the different persuasions are to be calculated by the relative
number of the Churches? Remember that your Churches
were built without any expense to those who now worship
in them ; recollect th it there are many unoccupied Churches
in London, and other large cities ; remember that the pre-
sence of a Church does not always prove the presence of a.
congregation, whereas the presence of a Dissenting meeting-
house, or a Catholic chapel, not only proves the presenc,
of a congreg,tion, but a wealthy one._( Hear, hear.)
make these statements to teach Honourable Members some
degree of moderation.— (Hear, hear.) I wish not their
money, and when they rob me of mine, I only want them
not to come down upon me with the " No Popery" Yell'
because I ask them to do some justice to Catholics and
Dissenters.—( Cheers.) You have, it seems, fallen greatly
in love with the Wesleyan Methodists. The Noble Lord
( Stanley) praised them highly. I did not hear the Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) praise them. I believe them,
however, in private life to be a very moral set of men—
with their religious opinions, I have nothing to do, but I
deny their right to any respect, as having shown themselves
of any great political utility. Their history is marked ; the
first political movement of John Wesley was his encourage-
ment, some say by writing the address to the Protestant As-
sociation, in 1780, which ended in what is now celled an
onnete, in the burning of part of the metropolis;
certainly he
signed some very inflaionatory letters in support of these
principles, doubtless not with a view to excite the outrage
that followed. The post hoc is not the prop
ter hoc, but
certainly the treasons and burnings did follow those letters.
I should be glad to hear any one step in the pol limal his-
tory of the Wesleyane, which would show their zeal for
civil and religious liberty. I never knew them join the
pemealjooifnthtoe
rest
Test ofa tnhde
CPer or
pt eesrtaatni
nt
nDAi scs
tesn. ter sI ton
eovbetra ihnntehwe rt
he
I knew them to be violently-1 will not say malig-
Hear, hear.)
obtain the emancipation of the Catholics ; on the contrary,
apnedtitoiofnt,hweihrenri You exclaim
betcoauslet.—th(ey now join you in the "No
ni
na n
theirtly opposedfasrenr
Popery" cry. But I warn you that you stand on trea-
cherous ground, when trusting to their support. Hear the
gthhteytospfeualkl
iocifigth,beuirs
t%o'nhich, they deem it a violation that they '
opposition to the intended scheme—upon the strong
first paragraph
liberty-0
be taxed for teaching a system of religion which they
s.ciinentchee,ir
consider " false and injurious." Sir, I wish not to use
ground of
harsh language, but I am bound, on my faith, to deem
their doctrines " false and injurious," and I demand, on
their principle, that I should not be taxed for the teaching
of such doctrines.—( Hear, hear.) Remember, your's is
mat,nthdedirsetc,t,obrrieest,hrehnaisL(nLosugahtttrearc,taino
a. rich Church
; at, think you that your stalls, and bishop-
rics, should
yrtecusr,
b ar• )
You think
that they differ only slightly from you. I
know not how you scan your religious differences, but I
know they differ in discipline; they have their own
teachers ; they differ from your system of parochial supervi-
Sion, and your hierarchy. Oh, let their principle be heard
in Ireland, and on their first quarrel, they will turn upon
you, and say " You embraced us when we held that re'''
gioua freedom was violated by the payment of tithes," &c.
(No, no, from the opposition.) Oh, you don't understand
it 1—( Laughter.) If they do not consider your doctrines
s
erroneous, why should they separate from you ?—( Hear,
and Hear, for
e there .
hear.) And after you have taken the " armed man upon