The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-07 00:00:00

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-of the short-hand writer in the execution of his duty ; and from the Committee. He particularly regretted the orals-
, if in the execution of that duty it should be found Sion of that part of the former Bill which related to the cessio
li .: . - that he was inefficient, then the Committee would have bonorum.
ht.,:rn. the Tower to .appoint another person.—(Hear.) This Mr. was
PEMBERTON anxious to ascertain from his
-loos • might load to some delay in the proceedings of the Corn- Majesty's Ministers whether it was their intention this Session
alersi i mittee, but h tointroduce any measure for the improvement of the admirtis-
e felt convinced that the result would be, thattration of justice in the Court of Chancery and other supreme
the proceedings of the Committee would not only be con-
courts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the last Session a 811 l had
i;1 , !, . ducted with greater deliberation, but in a much more satis- been introduced into the other house on this important subject,
`3:l • factory manner. He apprehended, therefore, that the the utter inadequacy of which to its purpose was such that no
gtC.. , ;House would do well to revise its opinion on this subject. one in the law or out of it regretted that it was not carried.
—(Hear, hear.) The evils which then existed
were now increased to a veto
00,.. • ORDERS OF THE DAY. great extent.—( Hear, hear.) Two years ago the arrears in
the
ed. 0.,. Lord J. RUSSELL rose to move that Orders of the Court
of Chancery amounted to riot fewer than between
Day take precedence, for the rest of the session, of notices of SOO and 400 cases ; the arrears now amounted to betwpen 800
and 900, (hear, hear.); and tin, very heavy and multifarious
t. law , -.motion, on. Mondays, Tuesdays, and Tit ursdays. He would
lldno , endeavour, if possible, to give no! ice of those Orders of duties imposed on the Lord Chancellor were such that there
>`u;•was no chance but that the arrears would still go on increasing.
. -the Day which were intended by Government to ( Hear.) Moreover, there was the Privy Council totally
satae< be . brought forward. It would, . he thought be altering its arangernents, to the extreme inconvenience of all
sag;,,; very desirable to save time, if it were known parties concerned. In reference to the present measure, he
~:a • that any discussion was likely to take place on the was extremely glad to hear that his Hon. and Learned Friend
-deo - Orders of the Day. It often happened that Orders bad it in contemplation to impose some new duties on the
Jon -; ,of the Day were read at twelve o'clock, and Judges of the Court of Review, for, certainly, no body of
"op: a i discussion thus without intention prevented. This would
men were ever more in want of something to do.
?s, .be prevented if it were known beforehand what Orders The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Government
of the Day were most likely to create a discussion.fullyby
was sensible of the evils stated the Hon. and Learned
The motion was then put and agreed to.
"'.
Gentleman, and the question was under their serious conside-
ration, and it was their intention either this or next Session
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.
- to bring the whole subject before this or the other House.
.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that in rising to There was no doubt that, from increased population and in-
introduce a Bill to abolish imprisonment for debt, creased wealth, the present judicial establishment was inade-
be did not intend to occupy the attention of the House at quate to the wants of the community. While the population
great length, for the measure had been frequently discussed, of the country had increased sixfold and the wealth twenty-
i•oo.: -. and he apprehended that the House had given its Odd, the judicial establishment had remained almost sta-
tionary,. and the consequence amounted to a violation of that
= ' opinion explicitly in favour of the abolition of impri-
reat charter, which promised the people of this country that
sonment for debt, except in cases of fraud.—(Hear, ""justice should be sold, should be denied, should be delayed
hear.) The present measure, however, differed in to no one_"
and respects from that of the former session, Leave was thengiven to bring in the Bill.
and that difference was of such a nature as would, lie was MESS gAGE FROM THE KING.
- • sure, induce the Honourable Member for Knaresborough ' Lord J. RUSSELL reported to the House that his Ma-
,.ii .. .to rise anti second his motion,—(hear, hear,)--for lie had jesty, having received the address of the House of Commons,
was entirely discarded that portion of the former had given the following gracious reply :—.° I have received
•Thseei Bill.• Which that Hon. Member had so anxiously opposed, with satisfaction your loyal and dutiful address, and I rely with
especially what he had urged regarding speedy judgments,
I
confidence
I a have con
your
y ur consideration of the subjects to
moautred attention. It shall be my endeavour,
oil! ' bills of 'exchange, and book debts. (Cries of which
•eo , . Hear, hear.") He considered that that clause of the by the blessing of Divine Providence, to preserve the peace of
" "
4 'F. last Bill could be dispensed with on account of the improve-. Europe, to maintain the honour of my Crown, and the happi.
-i:' • meet which had taken place in the progress of causes ness of my peopIe."BETTER REGISTRATION OF VOTERS.
which had been accelerated, and justice had been thus so The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
'io el.:,expedited, and could be procured so much more economically jest to confine the Bill strictly to the purpose stated in the
than before, that he agreed that that section of the Bill preamble—to make it strictly a registration bill. One of his
h'itoat- should be left out. There was likewise another part objects wee to restrict the number of assistant-barristers to a
' • of the former Bill, of which 'he had also got rid ;he alluded certain limited number, who should entirely devote themselves
7- ..e. to the cessio bonorom clause, which he considered should to the office; that instead of having 175 judges to decide on
`if.' • form the subject of a separate Bill.—(Hear, hear.) questions of the franchise, there should be a permanent court,
consisting of eight or ten judges. H" also proposed that the
ao ' A third portion of the former Bill now omitted was the
I'd penal clauses. The great and sole objects of the
third question put to electors should be omitted, and that the
'.
register should be taken as conclusive evidence of the exis-
li • . Bill was to give a direct and immediate remedy against
tense of qualification during the year for which the party
l'• . the property of the debtor, and take away the
improper re- claimed.
100 • medy which the creditor had now against the person of the Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
debtor. It had been stated by the late Sir S. Romilly, and by Mr. MA CLEAN begged to ask who was to have the ap-
-- all who had considered this subject, that the law pointment of the proposed judges"? •
of England was in a most lamentable condition The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that in pursuance of
with respect to the remedy the creditor had a suggestion made last year the names of the proposed judges
-' - in recovering his debt. He had no direct remedy against would be stated in the Bill.
' a great part of the property that belonged to Isis debtor. JOINT-STOCit BANKS.
• - It would be better that the creditor had a remedy against The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in rising
•.. the freehold, the funded, and other property -of his debtor, to move the renewal of the Committee on Joint-Stock Banks,
than to have the power of seizing his person. The first
said it would be in the recollection of the House that last Ses-
Sion, on the motion of his Hon. Friend behind him, the isle p-
- great object he had in view was to enable the Sheriff, in cases her for the Tower Hamlets, a Select Committee was ap-
. where judgment had been given,, to seize money, bills, book pointed to consider the state of the law in relation to . debts, and likewise copyhold and freehold estates, as'well as Stock Banks. That Committee was generally assented to,
Joint-
other descriptions of property. This latter proceeding he pro_ Stock
although on the part of the Hon. Member for Middlesex
posed should be effected in all cases after judgment had been
sued out twelve months, and the debt had not in the' mean 'there appeared a, disposition to extend its inquiries further than
- was contemplated by the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets,
time been satisfied ; giving them in cases where judgment had
;there was evinced no desire to resist the inquiry itself. The been entered up this remedy against the property and estate of
the debtor, he proposed that henceforward there should be no Committee, which was appointed in May, proceeded to apply it -
e
great industry to the points referred to it by the
self with power to seize or detain the person of a debtor either before or House. It sat till the close of the Session, and examined vast
after judgment. If they got at the property, it was not proper
numbers of witnesses, on whose testimony it was no part of his
that the person of the debtor should be liable to seizure ; he
present business to comment ; but the whole of it was before
therefore proposed, except in cases of • fraud, arrest should be
the House. It then became a question with the Committee
• ..got rid of. At present there were not less than 14,000 persons whether it would be wise or prudent to legislate at that period.
.., in gaol for debt, and upwards of three-fourths of them had no The subject was fully considered by the Committee, and the property whatever wherewith to satisfy the demands. of their advantages and disadvantages of immediately legislating occu-
creditors. It was proper that these persons should be discharged pied their attention during two days' delikration. The opi-
Out of prison, provided they had not been guilty of fraudulent
conduct,. and that they should thus be enabled to sup_ nion of th
e Committee on the point was stated in the Report,
to the effect that they saw so many difficulties in the way of
port themselves and their families by their honest exer-
lions. He did not repose to allow imprisonment in any immediate legislation, and so many objections to imperfect
•• p legislation, that they preferred recommending that the Corn-
' ' but cases of fraud. In all such cases he proposed that the mittee should be revived in the course of the present Session,
. . • judge should have authority to order the debtor to be com-
and that in the meanwhile their report should be circulated in
. onitted to prison. Also in cases where there was evidence that the country. It was in obedience to that recommendation
the debtor was about to leave the country, and to absent him- that he now begged to propose the revival of that Committee.
self from his creditors, the same process would be followed He trusted that those Gentlemen whose co-operation he had
as at present to secure the person of the debtor. After benefited by in the Committee, that those gentlemen who had
judgment the debtor must either pay the debt and satisfy hiis acquiesced in the appointment of that Committee, had. since
creditor, Or give such an account of his property. that it could the 12th of May seen no circumstance which could operate
he taken possession of for the purpose of division amongst his in inducing them to withhold their support from him on
creditors. If the debtor refused to answer, or did not give an
the present occasion. He trusted that the experience which
honest account of his property, he should also be liable to corn- they had had in the interval between the close of the last
mittal to prison. By commitment lie did not mean that a per- Session and the present period was not such as to indis-
Son should be allowed to live in a handsome house like a pa- pose them from at least renewing the Committee. As the
• lace, within the rules of the prison, where he could enjoy proposition he was about to make was for the continuation of
every luxury and laugh at his creditors ; but that a debtor thus the committee, it would be highly inexpedient on his part to
remanded should be confined within the walls of the prison, presume any anticipation of what might be the opinion of the
• salva et arcta custodia. There was another point in which this Committee on the subject, but he should be greatly miscon-
Bill differed from the former measures on this subject. It was ceived if it were considered that his motion was one made in
~ strongly objected to the former measures that to bring them
into operation it was necessary to create a great number of new hostility to the principle of joint-stock banks, or the established
system. It was well understood that the Act 2 Geo. IV. was
jadges, and that thus great patronage would accrue to the
Crown or the Government. He had always been of opinion rather considered, when it was passed, as an experiment, and
it wasebviously necessary that time should elapse before it
that the creation of a great number of new offices was, a great
impediment to the progress •of law reform. They were told would be possible to form a deliberate opinion on the subject.
• Now, however, a great many facts were before them which
• that their only object was to give to the Crown or the Execu- would enable them to judge whether the practice under the
• five the patronage of many new places, and not to pro- Act in question, and the Act itself, required amendment. The
mote the public good or improve the a'dministration of the very large majority of the witnesses examined on the part of
law, if, however, they proposed to give the patronage of these the banks, while maintaining the decided usefulness of aes to -the Lord-Lieutenants and custodes rotuloranz of understood system of joint- stock banking, united in the opinion
well-
counties, or to the Magistrates at Quarter Sessions, they might that the" law required amendment, for the protection of the
justly be told that they gave the power of appointment to ju- banks themselves, of the people, and for the general protection
dicial offices to those who were irresponsible. He was now of the credit and currency of the country. (Hear, hear.) It
happy in being able to inform the house that there was now had been suggested that the Committee should extend the
no such necessity for the extension of patronage. He found range of its inquiries—( Hear, hear); but he would appeal
that the Court of Review could be made available round the from the gentlemen who cheered to thegentlemen on both
metropolis with a radius of forty miles. He proposed that the g
sides of the House who had been on the Committee,
- Court of Review should have power to appoint Commissioners
and ask them whether the subjects before them had
to inquire into the property of the debtor. Under these sir-
not been in themselves sufficiently complicated and
eumstances there would be no great increase to the judicial
establishment difficult without embarrassing themselves with new and still
of this country, and the proposed change would
b attended with little expense. From the Report of the
more intricate and delicate subjects fur consideration ?—( Hear,hear.) It was out of the question to require the Committee
Commissioners on this subject, it appeared that the annual
to embark upon the whole question of the currency, or the re-
amount of the fees for giving bail amounted to 300,0001. This
newel of the Bank of England Charter in connection with
trouble the House with going at greater fen would be altogether got rid of by this Bill. He would not .
, joint-stock banks. He did not mean to say that it would have
• gth into an ex la_ ben possible to carry on the investigation before the Corn-
nation of the details of the measure, as there would be many
,
mittee without looking into the effect of the Bank of England
opportunities of doing so on future occasions. The Hon. and circulation in relation to these banks; this sort of incidental
Learned Gentleman concluded with moving for leave to bring inquiry was indispensable to the development of the subject;
in a Bill to extend the
,remedy of creditors against the pro- but to open the whole question of the currency and the Bank
an cases of fraud. °
perty of debtors, and to abolish imprisonment for debt, except charter in that Committee only tended in a very great degree
Mr. RICHARDS wished to explain his reasons for o
to embarrass its proceedings.—( Hear, hear.) The House
- ' ppos- would recollect that in the last Session his language on this
ing the measure of the former Sessions. It erected an enor- subject had been at all times that of caution and warning ;
Aleut. patronage; and was, in short, nothing less than a bill of that he had said nothing in any part of the discussions of
Peins.and penalties against unfortunate creditors, and he could last year that in the least degree tended to give an exag-
tiot help feeling that the object for which it was drawn up was gerated hope of national prosperity or increased enterprise;
to pull down and ruin the landed aristocracy, and to keep his indeed, an Hon. Member had almost reproved him for his
Majesty's present Government in their places. In the language extreme caution in this respect. But, at the same time, the
•of Mo.Cobbett, he would say, " Thank God, there is a House language of caution need not be the language of despair, and
of tords ;" for it was that House which at once saw that under he was as little disposed to speak despairingly now as then-
the allegation of its beinea a Bill to relieve the trading classes, but in the same spirit of caution he would now entreat Hoand to improve the law of debtor and creditor, it was nothing nourable Members who might be disposed to extend the
More nor less than a mode of increasing the patronage of circle of the Committee's inquiries to beware lest they thus
Ministers. He trusted the House would not allow this Bill to
Pass without giving all its details the closest examination. inflicted a permanent injury on the best interests of the country.
—(hear')—He should reserve to himself the full power of
Mr MA CLE AN said there was one feature in the last Bill, addressing himself to the subject of any amendment which might
which, if retained in the Present, required to be watched with be made upon his motion. It was his intention to
propose
i
great jealousy : he alluded to the summary power it -gave crc- the extension of the inquiry of the committee to lieland._ < ditors to incarcerate their debtors, by making an affidavit that Several circumstances in connection with the circulating me-
they believed the debtor was about to abscond. .....( Hear, hear.) dium in that country which had taken place in the course of
This was openinpe the way, in numberless cases, to an entire the last six months had been such as greatly to excite public
departure from the stated principle of the Bill, "the aboillictiaorn,
taitetrnereitniomnrg ( Hear.) Whatever amendments Honourable Gen-
.(of imprisonment for debt, except in cases of fraud."—( ht be disposed to move to extend the inquiry, with
near.) There was another feature in the Bill of last year a view to improve the law respecting banking, he begged to
which he had a strong objection to, namely, the power given say he was himself prepared to extend it to • Ireland ; and in
tt creditors to break into the house of any individual whom order 'to give the Committee the assistance of some Irish
‘tueO might represent as haying possessiOn of the debtor's pro- Members in the course of its deliberations, lie proposed to add
pert
He trusted the House would give this measure the to the Committee of last Session four Irish representatives;
Most mature consideration. two taken from one side and two from the other side of the
Mr. POTTER expressed his approbation of the measure, House.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lt was
.perhaps absurd in him
'which he was convinced would be perfectly satisfactory to the to talk of the two sides of the house in relation to a subject
trading classes, of this nature; for he was bound to say that in the inquiry
Mr. MART was surprised to hear the Hon. and Learned of last year all party feeling was completely lost sight of, as it
Member for Knaresborough talk about this Bill tending to surely ought to be in a question in which were involved inte-
undermine the landed aristocracy. What the Bill proposed rests of such immense magnitude as the banking interests of
WaSt to make the landed gentry pay their debts as well as this country-_( Hear)—interests on which the commercial cre-
other people ; and this was what ought to have been done dit of the country was entirely dependent. When such into-
loi
. • g ego..--( Hear, hear.) He was also extremely astonished rests were at stake, all might be satisfied that no party feel-
at the manner in which the Honourable Member had taken inks or differences would be allowed to interfere with the due
Upon himself to charge the excellent and Honourable Gentle_ exercise of the best judomeut which each individual member
Ulan who had drawn up the former Bill with " knavish tricks." of the Committee could bring to bear on the subject.—( Hear,
• Mr. RICHARDS said he had not used such an expression : bear.) He should conclude with moving, in the terms of the
What he said was, that the Bill was knavishly drawn up. motion of last year, that a Select Committee be appointed,
, Mr. EWART would give the Honourable and Learned Gen- to inquire into the operation of the Acts for promoting the es-
tieman all the benefit of his variation, and would ask whether tablishment of Joint-stock banks, under certain restrictions,
the term " knavishly" did not neeessaril imply an animus ? in Great Britain and Ireland, and to determine whether it
Mr. RICHARDS made some observyatiori, the purport of was expedient to make any alteration in the provisions of
Which was not collected, and
those Acts.
• . Mr. EWART went on to say that this measure was impe- The SPEAKER having put the question,
aatively called for as an act of justice to the people, and it Mr. H UME said the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that
'had stir
sanctioned by no less authority than. Lord Eldon, who the Committee of last year was appointei.with no. hostile. view
attoonatieee the law of imprisonment for debt as barbs- towards joint-stock banks, and he was not disposed to say it was,
roils. This was teamed Member an authority which even the Honourable and but he believed the joint-stock banks entertained a different
Mr.would bow to. opinion. No banking system could be perfectly safe unless
bore eocoNNEtst, had last year been told that the mea- founded on the principle that bank-notes should be changeable
juothen proposed could not well be extended to Ireland, by for gold on demand. That was the very essence of the seen-
ll of the nature of the machinery which it was in con- rity which the commercial interests were entitled to. lunationUnfor-
vto adapt to it. From what he had now heard there tunately the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, in granting the
no
tillhemmost anxious
extended to Ireland. If such were the case, he in which that essential principle was departed from. He took
.740 . anxious that Ireland should be permitted to derive the sense of the House on the clause to which he eas refer=
benefit of the proposed law, which appeared
ofto he. erni- ring.; and in doing so told them that it was fraught with evil ;
it
_l'elltly,CaleUlated to effect the desirable result arriving at that sooner or later even those authorities of the Bank who
17:,Property of the debtor without incarcerating his person, recommended it to him would regret its being embodied in
ja owever, any inconvenience were apprehended from mak- their Charter; that it would most certainly lead to such a sur,
'X this Bill applicable also to Ireland, he should not, press plus of paper, and consequently to such accommodation and
:talluaeLt point, but sh.ould, if no other person brought forward speculation, as must eventually endanger tho credit a the country. This was the opinion he had expressed in the do-
- " a Measure introduce a similar Bill for Ireland.
ohtlYlro
,HAWE'S warmly approved of the Bill, though he bates on the Bank Charter, and lie would stow proceed to vin-
dicate the course he tools lust Session when he proposed to ex.
vr.qu nave greatly" preferred its being introduced as it came.