The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-26 00:00:00

UNION-HALL.

Yesterday John Potter, a well. dressed young man, was
brought before Mr. WEnGwoson, charged on suspicion with
robbing a lady named Bowyer, residing at Greenwich, of a
gold watch, eye-glass, and a gold ring.
• The prisoner was remanded.

AUSTRIA AND THE AUSTRIANS.—TiIIs work,
we understand, is the production of one of our foreign
Attaches-,a personage whose place in society gives hini access
to all that is vivid, intellectual, vigorous, and envious in the
iystem of foreign life—an individual from whom we might ex-
)ect the most important views—the most characteristic ariec-
lotes—the most graphic) narratives ;—and the reader will not be
disappointed in looking for these qualifications in the present
pertormince, which is extremely spirited and striking—not too
heavy for the general reader—not too light for the philosophic
lne—detailing characters, incidents, and peculiarities, with the
ease, but without the frivolity of a courtly mind, and forming
ikogether a melange which it is at once rare and pleasant to
meet with in these grave political days. -
The Tories of Portsmouth have, ty dint of great
persevcrAnce, sueePeand In hulticir.g Sir George Cockburn,
ind (under the gallant officer's wing) Lord Fitzharris, to stand
forward as avowed candidates for the ropresentatiou a Ports-
mol:th at the net elec!ion. The 11.-r;orahle aspirants have
iieen deceived, as they will assuredly find on the day of trial.—
flamiishire Teleyrat h,

Lord ROLLE said he had merely mentioned the cir-
cumstance, in order to show that improper means had been
adopted to procure signatures to the petitions.
Lord BROUGHAM said that if it was any consolation
to the Noble Lord, he (Lord Brougham) bad-presented
upwards of a dozen petitions which made the sane state-
ment as to the improper mode adopted of procuring signa-
tures to petitions on the other side of the House.

The tall of GLENGAL presentel a petition from a
parish in Dublin against the Irish Municipal Bill.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE presented similar pe-
titions from a parish in Dublin, and from Newry.7-(Loud
cries of " Order of the Day.")
IRISH MUNICIPAL BILL.

On the motion of Lord MELBOURNE, that the
paragraph in the Lords Commissioners' speech on the
opening of Parliament relating to Municipal Corporations
(Ireland) Bill was read by the Clerk.

Lord MELBOURNE said, it became his duty to move
that their Lordships give a second reading to the Bill
then upon the table for the regulation of Corporations
in Ireland. The great attention which the subject bad received
in former years—the great familiarity which their Lord-
ships must have with all its details—rendered it unnecessary
for him to state at any great length the provisions of the Bill.
Their Lordships were aware that the Bill was for the pur-
pose of abolishing and abrogating the present Corporations
existing in Ireland ; and it was to substitute an improved,
as they (the Government) thought, system of government.
(Loud cries of " hear, hear.") The towns contained in
the schedules were nearly the same as were contained
in the former Bill. There were 47 towns in all, and they
were inserted in the Bill on the principle of population—no
one being inserted which had not a population of 3,000
inhabitants. Their Lordships were aware that the qualifica-
tion would be a possession of a 101. house in the larger towns,
while in the smaller the franchise was given to the possessor of
a 5/. tenement. There were certain differences in the
present Bill from that of last year • but it was unne-
cessary for him to detain their Lordships by detailing
them, as they were principally founded upon the
experience which they had had in the working of the Mu-
nicipal Reform Bill for.. England. There was only
one difference of any very great importance, and that
was with respect to the manner of nominating Sheriffs
in cities and counties of cities. At present the nomi-
nation was absolutely in the Town Councils. By the
Bill of last year the power was as absolutely
given to the Crown ; but by the 95th clause of
present Bill a middle course had been enacted, so that the
Town Council were to send up the names of three persons
to the Lord Lieutenant, one of whom he might appoint, or
he might reject the whole. In such a case the Town
Council Were to nominate any three persons, one of
whom the Lord Lieutenant might appoint, or again
he might reject the whole.—(Hear, hear.) If be dis-
approved of the whole six, be might then nominate
one upon his own responsibility. He was not aware of any
other change in the Bill that in any way affected its prin-
ciple, so as to render it necessary to bring it under their
consideration. He introduced the Bill in pursuance of the re-
commendation contained in two paragraphs of his Majesty's
Speech from the Throne, which had just been read to
their Lordships, In that gracious Speech, his Majesty
had been advised to call the attention of Parliament to the
state of Ireland, as being that part of his dominions
which req&red the greater share of attention, and in which
measures likely to be productive of the greatest benefit were
in the power of Parliament. In order to carry that recom-
mendation into effect we have introduced three measures ;
not as connected, but united, not as dependent one upon the
other, but as distinct measures, of which Parliament
may reject the one and accept the others ; and yet as
measures all of the highest importance, and in our opinion
entitled to the most serious consideration. All of
them had been recommended, as being of. the . highest
possible importance, to their Lordships' consideration;
and as such he (Viscount Melbourne) had brought that on
Which was first in order now under their consideration,
and intreatecl of them to give it a second reading. The
Bill divided itself naturally into two parts ; ;the first
went to the abrogation of Corporations as they at
present existed, and upon that point there had been
last year no difference of opinion whatever.—(Hear.)
On one ground or another, every one had agreed in the
propriety of that clause, which abrogated, so far as was
inconsistent with the present Bill, the charter; of those
Corporations—some because they conceived they bad
abused the trtht reposed in them--carne because they
appettrud to be at variance •vitli the Bill passed by
thou, Lordships for the reform of English and Scotch
Corporations—,and others, and mast probe* the
treater part, because these Corporations were of
n extremely narrow, limited, and exclusive nature.
It had been generally felt that they did not comprise
within themselves any part of the real respectability of the Pro-
testant body of Ireland. He apprehended that that general
feeling, together with two decisive votes of the othr, and
one of that House sanctioning the measure, would
very fairly ex ,mpt him from the necessity of entering
into further ar4uments on the present question,—( Hear.)
He could not help feeling a hope, indeed lie flattered him-
self with it, that that House caw) to the discussion of this
question upon the present occasion in far more favenrahle
circumstances, with better feelings and better 'iorapet. Last
year the Hou;e was irritated bs %4o wanner
in which the
English Municipal passed ; a considerable party tri..
umph wAa octniidered to have been gained no that 000asion.
PIO not gassed jtl the giV%emeernte manner, brit

" Justice is wore accessible.—Formerly, the magistrates
were a non-resident body, and prisoners taken in the act of
felony have been suffered to go loose front the impossibility
of finding a magistrate to hear the charge. Now the ma-
gistrates reside in the borough, and no difficulty exists at
-any hour of finding one in almost any locality.
" .Justice is cheaper, independent of the saving of time, a
most important consideration to a trading community, by
the facility with which a charge may now be heard and de-
cided on by a magistrate. Formerly, offenders were oftt n
net prosecuted because of the expense attending it ; an ex-
pense which fell exclusively upon the prosecutor, however
praiseworthy his condUct might be. The citizens resisted
the imposition of a county-rate out of which such expenses
Might have been paid, on the grounds that it would have
been levied and administered by an irresponsible body ; and
insisted upon first ascertaining whether the corporate pro-
perty,. duly administered, was not equal to this burden, and
fairly chargeable with it. The magistrates forming the old
aldermanic body, fearing the consequences of the struggle,
never enforced the rate ; but a fund is now provided, from
which the legitimate expenses of the prosecutor are paid,
and justice is thereby facilitated.
" Justice is snore efficient.—Formerly the criminal juris-
diction at sessions was vested in the committing magistrates ;
and that of assize, extending even to punishment by death,
in the recorder and aldermen. Now, the first is placed in
the recorder's hands, the last in the hands of the judges of
'the land, by whom it is administered far more satisfactorily
to the public. The power of trying a prisoner by the com-
mitting magistrates has ever been looked upon locally as
most objectionable ; while it was felt that cognizance of life
and death required the sanction of the highest authority,
and was not a fit power to be delegated to any section of a
body so constituted as a close Corporation. The adminis-
tration of justice in Bristol has thus attained a higher degree
of respect in the public mind, consequent upon the change.
" In civil law Bristol has immemorially possessed a court,
called the Tolzey, having a power of foreign attachment,
and empowered to take all' causes which may be tried at
Nisi Prim. In this court actions may he decided in about
two months, at an expense of about 10/. Yet, by a series
of appointments, by the old Corporation, of men notoriously
incompetent to discharge the duties of judge, the public
were deprived of these advantages, and driven from this
court into others, where the expense was quadrupled and
the delay greatly increased. Under the new law, the
recorder has been constituted judge of the court, and com-
petent ability in such an officer it is-always in the power of
a city like Bristol to secure.
" Justice has been weeded of its corruptions.—Among
its civil courts Bristol possessed one most valuable to the
poor—the Court of Conscience for the recovery of debts
under 40s. The patronage was in the old corporators, who
were the Commissioners, and by whom it was used to pen-
sion off the decayed members of the body. The last ap-
pointment to the registrarship of the Court was that of a
bankrupt alderman, in whose hands, although notoriously-,
to the day of his death, in pecuniary difficulties, the money
of the suitors was suffered to accumulate without any secu-
rity. Upon investigation by the new body it was Found that
the office had practically, in the hands of the registrar be-
come a sinecure of from 1,000/. to 1,4001, per annum ; that
illegal fees had been extorted from the suitors, and illegal
imprisonments inflicted by the Commissioners ; and that
the balance in the hands of the registrar exceeded 2,000/.
The new Commissioners restored the fees to their legiti-
mate standard, reduced the terms of imprisonment to those
which could be -legally enforced, exacted ample security
from the newly-appointed registrar, and put an end to all
further wrong to the suitors, by causing all sums received
to be applied the liquidation of claims an account of
which they were paid ; and all previous demands to be sa-
tisfied so far as might be out of a sum of about 5001, which
they luckily secured from tile old registrar.
" This sum was just expended when his deat'd occurred, •
leaving him in default to the poor suitors of the court to
the extent of 1,800/., an event which hP.Zt been predicted
and commented on, from the 'know:, extravagant habits
and involved circumstances Of l'aat officer, many years
before.
" 2d. Public S-„icly.—Undrr the old system the watching
of the borou,gh was as bad as it could be, and it was found
impracticaiale to amend it, although several times attempted,
from the impossibility of overcoming the jealousy and re-
moving the hostile feeling mutually existing between the old
close body and the citizens.
" The subuibs were then, for the most part, entirely
without a police or a resident magistrate, and the greater
and more dangerous portion was neither watched nor lighted
at night. Naturally part of the borough, although ex-
cluded from its jurisdiction, they were the nurseries of
the crimes which infested the city, while tile city was unable
to supply the best chock, preveation, bye reason of its li-
mited authority. The extension of jurisdiction, under the
Municipal- Aet, has been produetiye of the happiest effects :.
the whole district is new efficiently watched throughout, (lay
and night, property is immeasurably safer than before, toil
there is already a perceptible difference in the ,character of
the populace of a most beneficial nature.

" 30. nriancial Ifrfurni.—Tite management of the cisie
property by the
,old bed, was of a most wasteful and
ini-
t:rovident character. With an income averaging 16,0001.
per annum, its debts, at the period of the change effecter
itt its constitution, amounted to upwards Gf 100,0001. ;
whilst its expenditure so far exceeded its income, that twenty
).ear§ probeetlißtat thfr same rate would have maid the

oily- bankrupt ; and the trust-estates would have probably
been involved in the ruin (see Charities). The saving al-
eady effected in salaries alone is, notwithstanding the juris-
dirtiin is double its former extents (,0001. per annum.
from the sale of advowsous, the most objectionable species
of patronage which such a body could possess, nearly
40,0001. will acrue to the city.

" 4th. Public Confidence.—Onc of the greatest advan-
t ges which the city has derived from the introduction of
tl.is law, is the absolute creation of what before did not
airy where exist—public confidence in the local government.
Whether the elements of this confidence consist of entire
reliance on the parties chosen as councillors by the burgesses,
or on that corrective nature of the constitution of the go
verning body inseparable from the principle of representa-
tion, is of secondary importance, for its good effect is the
same. Formerly any movement of the Corporation with
reference to the public was always m:?.t on the part of the
citizens by parochial meetings and central committees of
delegates, then followed negotiations, in which ready suspi-
cion on the one band played at cross purposes with excited
jealousy on the other, and the result always left the breach
wider than before. Now, the debates in the town council
give to public feeling vent enough ; the movement comes
from,within, and agitation and its evils arc avoided. This
feeling is shared by all parties ; most assert, none deny,
the benefit of the change.

" nth. Party vi;.uleizce has been softened down ; and
not only party virulence, but sectarian virulence also ; this,
in a moral and social point of view, is one of the happiest
effects of the change of system. In no place have party
and sectarian feeling ru❑ higher than in Bristol ; and in no
place have more disastrous effects been in consequence pro-
duced. The operation of the change has been to throw
party leaders together ; and, the first jealousy overcome,
acting together in matters where party could be forgotten,
they have learned to respect each others talents and virtues,
and to forget distinctions of opinion, whereby they could
only be -.remembered to their common injury. The conse-
quence is, that there is more and heartier union, and a bet-
ter feeling on subjects of common benefit ; and thus one
element of prosperity has been, though indirectly, given to
Bristol by this measure, which Bristol previously wanted,
and suffered for the want of."

Now, my Lords, I have also received reports of a similar
nature from Leicester, from Norwith, from Liverpool, from
Cambridge, from Ipswica, and from other places ; and al-
though they differ in sonde respects, yet essentially the
writers of them concur with the writer of the report which
I have just had the honour to read to your Lordships. They
• declare generally that the administration of justice has been
improved—that there has been a great diminution of public
abuses, more especially with reference to police. It was on
that last point that the Noble Lords opposite were the
most apprehensive. They were afraid that the New Town-
councils would not place the police in a situation calculated
,to maintain the public tranquillity. It now appears, how-
ever, that the operation of the English Municipal Bill
has been most advantageous with reference to the police.
All this, my Lords, is a great good. Then I say that this
great good we ought to endeavour to communicate to Ire-
land. It is on the working of the English that I recom-
mend to your Lordships the adoption of the Irish mea-
sure. It is not necessary to go back to the examples of
Greece or Rome, the the more recent ones of the Ne-
therlands and other parts of the Contiuent. All these are
in favour of the plan which I recommend , but the success
of the English measure is a much more powerful mo-
tive. At present the members of the Irish Corporations
• are too much in the habit of looking to the Castle, and of
doing nothing for themselves. But there is nothing which
unfits the Irish people for taking upon themselves the
duties which this Bill will impose. Thus to employ them,
thus to give them important duties, may prove a balance to
what is at present considered deficient in the Irish charac-
ter. Really, my Lords, the question is reduced into a very
narrow compass. It is contended by the opponents of this
Bill that it is not applicable to Ireland, in consequence of
the different position in which that country and England
are placed—in consequence of the difference of religion in
Ireland—in consequence of the violence of politics in Ire-
land, and of the social bitterness which that violence
engenders. It is said by the opponents of the measure
that we only propose to transfer power from one body
to another". from the Protestants to the Roman Catholics.
My Lords, I rather doubt that. From all I know, from all
I see, and from all I have heard, I very much doubt if such
will be the effect of the adoption of the Bill under your
Lordships' consideration. But supposing that you give up
some power to these new town-councils, let me ask your
Lordships, what is the nature of that poWer? It can in no-
wise be dangerous. It is said that hope tells a flattering
tale ; but fear tells as intimidating a one. It has been al-
ledged that these Town-councils will become " normal
schools of agitation." Possibly political matters may be
agitated in these town-councils, and on those matters they
may be induced to present addresses to the King and peti-
tions to both Houses of Parliament. If that be the danger
apprehended, I hold it very cheap indeed. If they step out
of their sphere, depend upon it their influence will be very
small. None are so weak as those who endeavour to go
further than they have a right to go. There is, there-
fore, no danger that they can have any such bad effect as is
anticipated. Public opinion would divest of all weight their
proceedings, and if they stepped beyond the bounds of their
duty they might be safely left to bring forward measures
which would be only a proof of their own weakness and
imbecility. With respect to the influence of town-councils,
Ido not consider that even of such importance. But are
there no other assemblies at present ? Are there no gene-
ral associations ? And I mention not these for the purpose
of proviag that they may have much effect on Parliament,
but I point them out to show that these associations
have the means of influencing the return of Members
of Parliament. I mention them to prove that by cor-
respondence, and by raisin,* funds for supporting can•
didates, they may act as efficiently, and more efficiently,
than town-councils in returning Members either of Con-
servative or Radical principles.—(Hear, hear, hear.) That
ie the real object in view, and it therefore becomes your
Lordships to take that circumstance into your considera-
tion. But it has been said that these new town-councils,
under a popular Government, may be so constituted as to
affect the stability of the Protestant Church. Now I can-
not think that much danger is to be apprehended on that
account, because the danger, if danger there be, will come
not from town-councils, but through the mediuni of Mem-
bers of the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) That is
the dominant body, and I think I am therefore justified in
setting the one against the other. These town-councils
might use the borough funds, it has been said, in strengthen-
ing a particular candidate ; but those who make this asser-
tion ought to recollect, that there would be a proper ma-
nagement of the borough' funds, that there would be a just
and efficient superintendence of the accounts, which are
under the controul and management of the town-councils
elected by the rate-payers, and that there could be no
opportunity of applying the funds to the purposes of cor-
ruption, as was done under the old system. As far, there-
fore, as regard the management of the funds, and the
ratvonage in the gift of the Corporation, I think their im-
portance has been greatly overrated—that the greater part
of the influence arising from these will be withdrawn under
a new and well-constituted system—and that, therefore, the
arms which may be obtained from these quarters are not so
formidable, nor can so much use be„made of them as some
anticipate. I therefore call on your Lordships to accede to
this measure. It is but a little to give, and a great deal to
withhold—(Cheers)—and I implore your Lordships to con-
sider the subject carefully, and view attentively the large
grounds on which it stands, before you reject the Bill.—
( Hear.) It will not do now to say that you will reject the
Bill, bee tuse the great majority of the people of Ireland are
of the Roman Catholic religion.—( Hear.) It is impossible
to say that, and at the same time look forward to the future
well government of Ireland. Is there any probability that
the Roman Catholic religion will prevail less than it does
now in that country ? Is there any chance of its diminish.
ing—is it likely? If we look to all that has occurred for
centuries—if we are to be guided by the experience of the
past—it is impossible to suppose that any number of Roman
Catholics can change that religion which has taken such a
deep hold of their minds, and in which they were born and
bred up. If lam to be guided by the opinions of learned
divines, both of the last century and the present day, I
cannot come to any other conclusion. I know that some
say that Catholics are gaining on the Protestants, and that
point has been urged in both Houses of Parliament, but I
doubt it ; I think die natural apprehension of these indi-
viduals leads them astray on the subject, but certainly those
best acquainted with the subject consider that there has not
been and is not likely to be any great change in religious
opinions. If not, why then make a law which shall inter-
fere so materially with the liberty, the feelings, and com-
munities of a people now in connection with this country ?
I trust that nothing shall ever be done by England which
shall weaken that connection, and that nothing ever will
arise which can lead to the separation of the two countries.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) That union has been sanctioned by
time. The two countries have been bound together by
mutual alliance—by intermarriages—by every relation of
life—by the mutual possession of property, and by mutual
advantages which affect both countries, whether we look to
their operation in time of peace or the maintenance of our
security in time of war.—( Hear, hear.) If we look to the
history of the union we shall find of what advantage it has
been in days of danger and difficulty ; and such an impressiOn
has that made that an historian, perhaps of a superstitious
and poetic character, has said that whenever the two coun-
tries have been nigh separation there has always been some-
thing like the unexpected hand of Providence to keep them
. united. If we look to the history of the two countries we
ildWselptpit e victory gained on the field of Aughrim
ceidental death of the celebrated French
ea-7i ..'"eisn's ded, and that on that account only the
OleTri vf 44. 46. ide4ata. favour of King William. Historians
• -; :
7 .;

Ai .11.

ay there was but one tnan in the field who could have saved
the army opposed to hitn, and that man was killed. If that
was the character of the Union at that period, how much •
more striking has it been since, when the country was at
cne time in such imminent danger, when battalions of vo-
lunteers were raised at a moment when the safety of the
:itate might be said to be hanging by a thread, and the
danger was overcome by the patriotism and the prudence
of those men at the head of the popular party ? The same
circumstances occurred in the terrible days of tha French
revolution. It is impossible not to see what dangers the
union passed through at that time ; ard I therefore pray
your Lordships not in any way to run the hazard of doing
for yourselves what neither the legi:imate claim of King
James, backed as it was by the existing religion of the
country, nor the power of Louis the Fourteenth, nor
the national calamities and disasters arising from the
American war, nor the horrid events of the French re-
volution, were able to effect.—(Hear, and cheers.) I
pray you to do everything in your power, tc preserve that
union which has come through so much danger and diffi-
culty successfully and triumphantly.—(Cheers.) This Bill
is one of great importance ; its object is to do away with
the existing Corporations and establish others in their
places. The details do not differ materially from the Bill
of last Session, and it is therefore unnecessary to go into
them. In conclusion, I pray your Lordships to give up
that petty, harassing, and unseemly warfare :
" Tuque prior, to gparce, genus qui ducis Olympo :
Projice tela manu, sanguis meus."
As you have the power, so exercise the grace of bringing
the matter to a speedy, an immediate, and a satisfactory
conclusion.—(Loud cheers.)

The Duke of WELLINGTON sail it was his wis
to give, according to the recommendation of the Noble
Viscount, due consideration to the Bill, and to concur
with him in having it read a second time as it was read a
second time last year, and he would do soon the prin-
ciple that the existing Corporations in Ireland ought not
to be continued. He believed that it was admitted by
most persons who had written on the subject that these
Corporations had been established with a view to protect
and support the Protestant religion and the Protestant
people of Ireland. Various attempts had been made to
improve these Corporations, and to introduce, persons of
other religions besides Protestants, but all such attempts
had been successfully resisted by these Corporations.
It was not his wish, or the wish, he believed, of any party
in the House, to have municipal corporations exclusively
constituted ; but there was a great difference between putting
an end to the existing corporations and erecting others
which, under the same name, would establish municipal
councils equally exclusive in another sense, and bring about
what might be called a revolution of the local establishments
of that country. He was, therefore, surprised that a
Minister of the Crown, who had totally failed last session in
producing a measure which their Lordships could adopt,
should come down this session and propose a second time, he
would not say the same measure, but a similar measure,
which the Noble Viscount said was not so pod as that he
had proposed last year. Now what he contended for was,
that if the Noble Viscount had intended to conciliate, or to
obtain the support of their Lordships, he ought to have
brought forward a different measure, and recommended one
which was more consistent with the views of that House of
Parliament, and at the same time have taken steps for re-
moving the existing corporations, and introducing a system
of reform to guard against the abuses which now existed,
and which, under such a Bill as that, were likely to exist.
Now he had various objections to that measure. In the
first place it handed over the Corporations to the lowest de-
scription of the inhabitants of towns. The Noble Viscount
has adduced the Corporation Bill of England, and alluded
to the state of the boroughs in England at the present
time ; but if that new system was so good, why not make
the qualification in Ireland the same as in England ? In
England the 10/. franchise was universal. In the large
towns in Ireland the qualification was to be 101., but in
another schedule there were many towns in which the fran-
chise was to be only Si. And respecting the 101. fran-
chise, the Noble Lord and their Lordships ought to re-
member that it was net made up from one tenement, but
by classing all the tenements in the owners' possession to-
gether : such was to be the nature of the franchise under
this Bill for Municipal Reform in all the cities and towns
in Ireland. But he begged their Lordships also to look at
another part of the measure ; namely, the system of taxa-
tion which would be in the power of the town-councils to
carry into effect. By the English measure the town-
councils were empowered to levy rates of the same de-
scription as the county rates ; but by the measure be-
fore their Lordships the town-councils were to tax the
householders agreeably to the 9th of George IV., by
which the proportion of the rate increased with the
amount of the rental. For instance, houses rated at
10/., or below that, six-pence in the pound was the rate
—for houses above that and below 2.04 nine-pence, and
for houses above 20/. one shilling. Now as that was a
clause which related to taxation, and which must be fixed
by the other House, their Lordships would see that it could
not be altered by their Lordships, however objectionable
it might be. He considered such a mode of taxation highly
objectionable, because many town-councils had nothing else
to do but levy rates, and expend the money in the same
way as before, and almost to any amount. The Noble
Viscount was pleased to call their Lordship's attention to
some of the towns in England, and to the great advantages
they enjoy, and :recommended a similar system for Ireland.
But they ought to recollect, that, as regarded many of the
immunities possessed by those towns, many of the Irish
towns enjoyed the same advantages, and particularly that
of a good police. Some of the towns ih England were not
so quiet as they ought to be, and it could not be denied
that many of the large towns wanted a good police. But
it ought to be known that that was not so much the case
in Ireland. The police was established in every part of
that country, and he objected to give the town councils or
the corporations the power of establishing a local police,
whose jnrisdiction should extend not only over the towns
but over all parts of the country within seven miles
of the town. In fact, it allowed the corporation
power to raise armed men to carry on war, if they
thought proper amongst themselves or against the county
magistracy. He believed such a power would be given to
tl►e Town Councils by the 9th of George IV. Now he
thought such a pciwer very objectionable, and that the
clause ought not to apply to any town but on the applica-
tion of a certain proportion of the inhabitants, when they
consider it might be proper. But it might even happen that
the inhabitants would refuse to submit to such a system of
taxation. It would be much better, in his opinion, that
such a system, if it was to be adoptod at all, should be
effected by 'a private Bill, and the Town Councils should
not have the power of taxing the inhabitants without their
consent. Another great objection to that part of the mea-
sure was, that massy of these 10/. voters may have the
power of laying on additional taxes, and that these perspns
may be so situated as not to be liable to any taxation them-
selves under the 9th of' Geo. IV. For instance, a man
may have a number of tenements of the yearly value of
10/, but not one of these may be worth 51. a year, and
consequently, according to that Act, be would not be liable
to pay taxes That part of the Bill was highly objection-
able, and he thought it would act most unfairly, because it
would give the whole power to certain individuals over
whom the population had no check, and not unlikely in
many instances demagogues would be the persons ap-
pointed. He would not, however, for these reasons, give
his vote against the second reading, because he was desirous
to see such amendments made as would render it fit to
pass that House. He would not, therefore, withhold his
consent to the second reading, but allow it to go into Com-
mittee, in order to see what means might be adopted for
rendering it a fit and proper Bill.

Lord LYNDHURST said it was not his intention to
oppose the second reading. He agreed with the Noble
Duke that the Bill should be read a second time ; they were
all agreed that the present constitution of the Corporations
in Ireland was not such as was required, and that some re-
medy must be applied to prevent the abuses of these Corpo-
rations from being perpetuated. With that object in view,
their Lordships ought to allow the Bill to be read a second
time. Indeed, it must appear to their Lordships that they
would be acting inconsistently with the course they pursued
last Session, by rejecting the Bill on the second reading ; and
they would also be acting inconsistently with their Address
in reply to his Majesty's Speech at the beginning of the Ses-
sion. In that Address they said, with reference to amending
tl:e Municipal Corporations in Ireland, that they would take
the subject into their serious consideration ; end they would
therefore be acting inconsistently, if they did not allow the
Bill to be read a second time. There was another ground on
which he required their Lordships not to oppose the motion
of the Noble Viscount, and that was the language used by
their Lordships, and the reasons urged, in a conference with
the other House, when they took into consideration the
amendments of last session. It appeared to him they would
be acting inconsistently with their declaration on that occa-
sion, if they did not agree with the Noble Viscount in read-
ing the Bill a second time. It was not their Lordships' in-
tention or the intention of the Noble Viscount that they
should enter into the consideration of the Bill, as he
presumed the Noble Viscount thought that quite unne-
cessary at that stage of the Bill. He must, however,
be allowed to say, most distinctly, that he never would
agree to the passing of that Hear, hear.) How
far it might be rendered a measure which could be ad-
vantageously passed for the safety of Ireland, the con-
stitution of the Established Chnrch, and the maintenance
of Protestant interests in that country, would depend on
the alterations made in it. All he would say was, that in
voting for the second reading he hoped that it would be un-
derstood that he did so for the purpose of affording another
opportunity for considering the details of a Jill to many of
which he did not agree, and which nothing should iodopp
him to acquiesce hear)

Viscount MELBOURNE said the Noble Duke had
expressed his surprise that a measure which had been re-
jected by their Lordships should be again brought under
their consideration. Why he could refer to many measures
which had been rejected repeatedly by their Lordships, and
wv re afterwards ca7ricd.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke
knew that ; he I new also that measures which he had in-
t educed were much more stringent, and went a great
deal further, than those he had resisted when he led
the opposition to them in that House ; but the difference
was, that he (Lord Melbourne) supported that Bill, and
therefore it was improper. The Noble Duke knew that
there was a Bill which he had always divided in opposition
to, and yet he was the very man to, introduce and carry
that Bill which had been over and Over again rejected.—
( Loud cheers.) Ile hoped, therefore, that he had purged
himself of every thing like disrespect, and convinced their
Lordship; that his conduct in introducing a Bill which
had been once rejected was as respectful as the conduct
of the NOble Duke on that occasion.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Duke and the Noble and Learned Baron said
they were ready to agree to the second reading of the
Bill, and he was glad of that, though their language did
not hold out any large prospects of success. He hoped,
however, that the further consideration of the Bill would
lead to better results than he had reason to anticipate at
tb; present moment. With regard to the police of towns
adverted to by the Noble Duke, he would only say that
by establishing a good system of police in towns it would
have a corresponding effect in the surrounding country ;
and as to the parties being unjustly taxed without their
consent, he believed that was a subject which interested
the rate-payers ; and if they had believed there was any
such danger of abuse as that. alluded to, they would have
instructed their representatives i❑ Parliament to oppose the
. clause.

Lord BROUGHAM said it appeared undoubted that
they were to go into Committee on this Bill. He must
say that he was rather sorry for it, because he was led to
believe, from the tone of the Noble Duke and of his
Noble and Learned Friend opposite, that they would only
throw away some five or six weeks of their time in unpro-
fitable discussions on the subject, and in the end find
themselves in the same situation in which their Lord-
ships and the other House of Parliament and the coun-
try were at the close of the last Session. If he had
any reason to believe that during the months which had
elapsed since that period anything had occurred to lead
the Noble Duke and his Noble and Learned Friend to
take a different view of the subject than they entertained
last year, he should indeed take their agreeing to the se-
cond reading as a most blessed event, both to this and the
other country.—(Hear, hear.) But until he heard something
more from Noble Lords opposite of a kind to lead him to
this conclusion, he must say that his expectations were not
only not sanguine, but that in fact they were nothing at all,
and that nothing probable or possible was to be gained by
going through what he• was going to call a farce; but he
would not use that term, but what he really thought must
prove a very bootless proceeding indeed, both as regarded
this measure and the\country.
The Bill was then read a second time, and understood
to be fixed for Committoc on Thursday week.
The Millbank Penitentiary Bill went through Committee.
SMALL DEBTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The second reading of this Bill was moved by the Mar-
quis of BUTE.
After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM, who did
not oppose the second reading,
The LORD CHANCELLOR did not object to the
second reading, but said that as another Bill on the same
subject, introduced into the other House, would soon be
before them, he thought it advisable that they should not
proceed in any further stages of this Bill until they had
both the Bills before them.
After a short conversation, in which the Earl of Had-
dington, Lord Brougham, the Earl of Roseberry, and the
Marquis of Bute took part, the Bill was-read a second
time, and the House adjourned.