The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-02 00:00:00

CANADA.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL appeared at the bar, and in-
formed the House that the Lords had agreed to a Con-
ference, in Committee Room No. 5, on the subject of the
Canada Resolutions.
Lord J. Russell, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord
Howick, Sir George Grey, Lord Morppth, the Attorney-
General, Sir Robert Peel, Lord Stanley, Sir Jas. Graham,
Mr. Labouchere, the Earl of Lincoln, Sir Robert Inglis,
and Mr. C. W. Wynn were then appointed Managers to
conduct the Conference on.the part of the Commons.
The Managers having returned, Lord JOHN RUS-
SELL informed the House that they had been to the
Conference, which had been managed on the part of their
Lordships by the Duke of Richmond, that they had com-
municated to them the resolution of that House, and had
left the resolutions with their Lordships.
TITHES (IRELAND).

Petitions praying for tha abolition of Tithes were pre-
sented by Mr. H. Grattan, Mr. Otway Cave, Mr. Fitz-
simon, and Mr. Sharman Crawford.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the Clerk
read that part of his Majesty's speech relating to Tithes in
Ireland.
On the motion of Lord MORPETH the House resolved
itself into a Committee on Tithes (Ireland), Mr. BEItNAL
in the Chair.

The NOBLE LORD then proceeded to say that. when he re-
minded the Committee that he then rose for the third time
to move for leave to bring in the fifth Bill, which, within
the short period of three years had been submitted to Par-
liament for the settlement of the Irish Tithe Question,
they would allow that it would be better for himself, as
well as for the subject which he could not then
adorn—all its chief branches being fresh in the
memory of Hon. Members—under all trieS7 circumstances,
he thought that the more short, simple, and matter-of-fact
he made the statement which he was called upon to lay
before the House, the better he would discharge his own
duty, and consult the convenience of the Committee.
The more especially did he feel that that course would be
best, as the whole question was likely to give rise to much
party and inflammatory matter—as it involved most oppo-
site principles—not declining at a proper opportunity to state.
most broadly his own views of those principles, and to abide
by their issues ; yet he would sincerely wish on that occasion
to guard himself against unnecessarily or prematurely bring-
ing those opposite opinions into conflict. He would en-
deavour to avoid as much as possible, in the statement he
was about to make, any party feeling. With respect
to that part of the question which related to the bases on
which the settlement of the Tithe question should take
place, very little substantial difference of opinion had sub-
sisted among the principal parties in the State who
had addressed themselves to this question for some time.
They proposed to follow the precedents laid down in all
the five previous Bills which had been introduced on
that subject, by converting the Tithe-charge into a Rent-
charge upon the owner of the property of the first inheritance.
They had taken the same mode of deduction as in the two
previous Bills submitted to the House by his Majesty's
present Government—a deduction of thirty per cent, or
down to seventy, upon every ene hundred. Objections had
been urged against the previous proposal for vesting the
levy of the future rent charges in the hands of the Com-
missioners of his Majesty's Land Revenue, as tending
to give to the Ministers of the Established Church
a dependant character. Without stopping to inquire into
the justice of those observations, he would say that it was
not the intention to take that levy of the rent charge out
of the hands of the present clerical proprietors, giving them
the same poweci of recovery as was given by the Bill of last
year to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests ; in fact the
same power given by the Tithe Composition Bill of 1832.
They preserved the same rule and regulations for the pro-
bable revision in certain cases of the present tithe composi-
tion, as was introduced in the Bill brought forward last
year ; for although they were aware that plausible dis-
tinctions were drawn between compositions of one date and
those of another, and between compositions entered
into under one form and those entered into under another,
they thought they should do most complete and substantial
justice by making the power in all cases alike, taking care
that proper and sufficient precautions were adopted against
their being idly, capriciously, and needlessly resorted to. It
would be remembered by the • Committee that in the Bill
which was brought forward in the last Session, pro-
visions, the particulars, of which he need not enter
into then, were included for an altered description of cle-
rical benefices tending to a more equitable appointment
of ecclesiastical revenues. At the time that Bill was
introduced, amendments were proposed by the Noble Lord
opposite as to the future enjoyments of the Clergy ; but at
the same time it was intimated by that Noble Lord that the,
clauses he had suggested were not unobjectionable, but
that they would not be disapproved of by the heads of
the Church, or by the body at large.—( Hear, hear.)
However, the shape which the Bill, independently
of those specific alterations, wore, when it was re-
turned to that House at the close of the last Session was
such, that his Majesty's Government felt convinced that,
in the then and still subsisting state of the tithe question,
they could not fail to arrive at the conclusion, with great re-
gret, that it was their duty not to consent to such enactment.
Looking to; the amendments proposed by the Noble Lord,
and adopted by the other House of Parliament indepen-
dently, with a view to an unaltered distribution of Church
property, he confessed he was still inclined to think they
were susceptible of further modification, and that if
they were adopted as they stood there would
be left many gross cases of disproportion and abuse which
they would not reach, or at least which they would
but very inadequately touch. Still considering the auspices
under which they were propbsed, and the authority by
which; they were supported—wishing, wherever they
were able, and where the views of all the principal parties
contending manifestly pointed to one common object, to move
along that combined track in peace and amity—his Majes-
ty's Government had thought it expedient and advantageous
to adopt those clauses, almost without variation in the shape
in which they had found them—he believed, entirely without
variation, except as regarded one provision which they
thought militated against the spirit of the propositions it
accompanied—he meant the prohibition to the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners to reduce any benefice, be the circumstances
of that benefice what they might, to any annual amount
of income below 3001.—(Hear.) By the Church
Tensporalities Bill, one of the chief objects which it was
intended to defray from the revenues that would have ac-
crued under the operations of that Act, was the increase
of small livings, which were estimated by Earl Grey, in the
clear and comprehensive statement he made in introducing
that measure into the other House of Parliament, at -16,500/.
per annum. One of the items to meet the expenditure.
Contemplated to be provided for under the same Act,
was a tax on all clerical incomes, whether of arch-
bishops or of bishops. Without then, adverting to
the question of a surplus revenue, which, according to
th• calculations of the authors of that measure as well as
of the eminent accountants to which the details have sub•
sequently been referred must eventually be admitted at a
very distant day, but must eventually arise under the ope-
ration of the Bill as it then stood, or as it had been since
amended—without adverting to that question of surplus,
the Committee would perceive that the item of expen-
diture in the outgoing of the Church Temporalities Fund
to which he had alluded, namely, the increase. of the small
livings, would be met by the provisions contained in the
Bill of last year, by which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
wore empowered to make deductions from any living
of which the annual income exceeded 5001., or in
which the number of members of the Established
Church fell short of one hundred, and to augment any
benefice of which the annual value was below three
hundred pounds, or which comprised a city and a town.
The provisions of these clauses of the Noble Lord and the
House of-Peers would indeed be far more than commen-
surate with what would be derived from that tax, which,
from the deductions since made, would be a mere trifle.
That tax they proposed to repeal, because it did not
seem necessary to keep up a tax insufficient for the
purposes to which it was applied, and which purposes
were amply provided for in another manner.—(Hear, hear.)
lie had already stated that he had adopted almost precisely
in the shape in which they stood, the suggestions of the
Noble Lord or the amendments of the House of Lords,
call them which you will, in the Bill of last year ;
but as in carrying these provisions into effect, it was
probable, and almost inevitable, that further proposi-
tions would be made to give stability to the enact-
ment, a power would be given to the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners to report to his Majesty any further subsi-
diary and supplemental suggestions, and which, if his
Majesty's advisers thought fit, might be brought under
the consideration of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) There
was an ancient statute of Henry the Eighth, which
had been cited on a former occasion, but which had not met
the consideration it was fairly entitled to. The 15th chap.
of the 28th Henry VIIIth, enacted that every incumbent
of every parish should keep or cause to be kept a public
school to learn the English language, and that every Bishop or
other dignitary on making such induction should administer
an oath to the incumbent to keep and maintain such school.
There were penalties attached to the omission of that duty ;
for the first two offences fines of different amounts, and
for the third the incumbent was to be deprived of his
living. That statute was subsequent to the acknow-
ledgment of the King's supremacy in Ireland ; but it
was clear that Ireland was then in the eye, as at pre-
sent, a Catholic country. That Act had been further
reinforced by the 12th of Elizabeth, cap. 1, which provided
for the establishment of diocesan schools, into which an

inquiry was at present making, under the superintendence
of his Honourable Friend the Member for Waterford.
An oath was imposed by the 28th. of Henry the Eighth
upon all incumbents ; it was not repealed, and was in
force at the present day. Every vicar and incum-
bent in Ireland was, on presentation, obliged to swear
that he would keep, or cause to be kept, in
his parish an English school ; that obligation still rested
on the Clergy in the freshest force—the question was, Was
that obligation fully complied with ?--(Hear, hear.) BY
the first report of the Irish Education Commissioners, it
appeared that out of 1,242 parishes there were 782 schools,
which gave a little more than one school to every fourth
parish in Ireland. By the Report of 1835, it appeared that
there were many benefices which had no parochial school at
all. And by a Report which was made in 1810, he
found that it was the practice of the clergy, no salary hav"
ing been provided by the Act of Henry VIII., to al"
low the schoolmaster only 40s. per annum, which payment
made the school a parochial one. In the year 1787, '
when Mr. Ord was Secretary for Ireland, a Committee was
appointed who reported that it was obligatory on the ClergY
to keep or maintain an English school on their benefice;
that they had made a computation of it for 40s. per annum
which was not considered sufficient, he proposed resolutions
to gradually increase the sum ; but that plan, like marl'
other good ones, was abandoned. A change of Government
took place, and shortly after the tragedy of the rebellion
occupied the public mind, which was again occupied. by the
great question of the Union. In 1806 the Duke of Bed'
ford, the father of his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell),
who, he hoped, was destined to work out that good wor
which had been commenced by kindred hands—(Cheers)
—in that year he issued a Commission of InquirY
into the whole subject of education in Ireland.
Upon that Commission were the Archbishops of Armagh and
Cashel.—( Hear, hear.) They reported that it was
highly expedient that the contribution of the
Clergy should be paid with more regularity,
and to a greater extent, and they suggested that two Per
cent. on the income should be the fixed rate. He might
be told that the statute of Henry VIII. was only intended to
substitute the English in place of the Irish language, one
that it was only superintendence on the part of the clergY,
and not the contribution which the Legislature meant...-.
(Hear, hear,) That had been amply confuted by the
documents which he had already read to the House'
What was the course lie invited the House to pursue'?
the present inextricable state of the tithe question
Why, first, the repeal of the provisions of the Statute
of Henry the Eighth, and, secondly, to relieve the Clergl
of the Established Church from the obligation of an oath
which was of no value. The circumstances of the times had rep'
tiered the taking of an oath on the induction of a clergymen
totally unnecessary.—( Cheers.) He thought it would be
desirable and advantageous that the Clergy should be re'
lieved from such an obligation. Now what autho-
rity had he upon this occasion ? Why, the eleventh Re'
port of the Commissioners of Education stated that
it was unnecessary, and the first Report of the Commis"
sioners on Education in Ireland observed that the ClergY
were subject to a restriction that was totally unnecessary'
After a few other observations, the Noble Lord concluded
by moving " That it is expedient to commute compositions
for Tithes in Ireland into a rent-charge, payable by the
owners of the first estate of inheritance ; and to make fur
ther provisions for the better regulation of ecclesiastical du-
ties and revenues."
The resolution was then put, and agreed to without all
further observation being made from either side of the House.
IRISH POOR LAWS.

Mr. BARRON opened the adjourned debate on this
subject. He denied that the principle of the measure now
before the Henze was new to Ireland. The system already
existed to a great extent in the shape of the houses of in"
dustry established in that country ; and from his own ex"
perience, as Governor of the House of Industry at Water'
ford, he could say that they had been productive of great
benefit to the poor. He thought it most important that Is
the asylums proposed in this Bill a system of labour should
be established combined with a system of rewards and
punishments, and that model farms should be attached 0
each workhouse. In order to work this measure more sue"
cessfully, it was essential that the Commissioners should be
invested with powers at least as full as those they possessed
for working the English measure. It was one of the b
and wholesornest features of the Bill that its working was,
not left to mere parish officers or mere interested hul"-
duals, but that great control was given to Government 0,
the management of the system. This measure he hailsd
as the first practical step to alleviate the misery of lit:
land ; but it was essential that it should be combined with
measures for the promotion of emigration, the improvement
of waste-lands, an extensive system of drainage, the or
ploymcnt of the poor on public works, and other well'
sures ; and he was happy to find that Bills to seeers
these essential objects had already been brought it'
by his Honourable Friend the Member for Galway. It
seemed to him that great inconvenience would arise from
the mode in which property was made chargeable under
this Bill. It also appeared to him desirable for many rev
sons that there should be two new Commissioners under
the Bill, and that they should be Irishmen, well acquainted
with the localities of their country, and with the feelings
and habits of their countrymen. 'lt was really too bad that/
Irishmen should be excluded almost entirely, as they were;
from any share in the administration of the affairs evens:
their own part of the empire. Of the persons connected
with the Government only five were Irish, while there
were sixteen Scotchmen, and between thirty and foil
English.
Sir R. BATESON joined most heartily in the praYe.l:
that the barracks in Ireland might be converted by 61'
measure into houses for the poor ; but he feared that the'
houses about to be built for the poor would have to be con'
verted into barracks, unless a better system of governmen
were acted in on that country. There was a consider:kb,
is
portion of the details of the Bill which he thought woos' •
not work well. The measure had been got up in a hasty
and undigested manner. Mr. Nicholls, who had content
himself with a six weeks' tour, for the purpose of acquiriti
the necessary information, never went to the province °,
Ulster : he perhaps considered the state of that part °L'_
the country not worthy his observation. In his opinion se"
senteeism was one of the greatest of the evils with which Iry
land had to contend, and any measure brought in for the
relief of the poor ought to have operated so as to give i
premium for residence ; it ought also to have punished 05
residents, by making them pay tribute for the support,te
the poor. This Bill was founded on the very oPPeta
principle ;it offered a premium for absenteeism—it pin,
absentees in a better situation than those who were resicl,eonr
He objected to the Bill, also, that it excluded out-d°
relief. In conclusion, the Hon. Member contended tilj
the Bill ought to have contained a provision for the more
and religious education of the pauper children.
The O'CONOR DON said that the Hon. 130° net b
had instituted a comparison between the North and Soute,
of Ireland, but he begged to remind him that the PresPt,.
rity of the one, as contrasted with the other, was attribe
able to the advantages it derived from English governre,e4
and English laws. In the Report it was calculated tr
eighty workhouses would be required ; but in his opirVaa
ten times that number would be found necessary.
thought it injudicious to attempt to work this Bill by En it
lish Commissioners. This measure was no Poor-lsr 'be
was simply a Bill which gave three or four individuals t
power of introducing any Poor-law they pleased.
Mr. LYNCH was favourable to the principle of the
Bill, but in his opinion it ought to be accompanied by otll,o
measures—for instance, a measure to enable landlords
improve their estates. He was convinced that ;f the odoo,
Member for Kilkenny knew Mr. Nicholls as well as be
as
he would believe that Mr. Nicholls's zeal for Ireland :ix,
only exceeded by his ability to serve her. He declared, fr`_',o
his knowledge of Ireland, that the number of the destl7;
poor in Ireland had been greatly exaggerated. Axe°
015
to the calculations made, every third person in Ireland 06
a pauper ! This was on the face of it an absurdity gr.
referred to the authority of Mr. Griffith on the point.
.„ere
Griffith stated that at some times in the year hands "sat
so scarce, that he was obliged to stop his works. The 1,..d
of employment he calculated was confined to ninety-fouri
iog
in the year, and instead of one-half of the population J,e_th,
unemployed, he did not consider it to exceed one-tvven_t°,4
He preferred the authority of Mr. Griffith to that of-e"af
Commissioners. He hoped that this Bill would be
the means of putting an end to one of the great evils eifiTt.,
land—competition for land'—an evil to which they Isigd
poC
tribute those outrages, that were in fact agrarian, an foss
political. The Bill would relieve the small fartnersi_to
the support of the destitute, which was now
thrown upon them. As to emigration, he was o'2)
to it until every acre that could be cultivated was
productive.
Lord CLEMENTS approved of the
Bill proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. With /Obi
to the workhouses he could say that the able-bodied , die
poor would
.not get into them. He thought that
proposed unions in Ireland, comprehending a ,n 0 to
of 400 square miles, and a population of from Or'', too
100,000 souls, would be found in practice to be taa'hena
large. The largest unions in England did not comPr toe.
prinelple efpteheat
a population of more than 30,000 souls. At the: sosert 0° •
as he had already stated, he was disposed to suPP°O4 to
principle of the Bill ; although in so doing be regr.thba
say he should not be acting in accordance with
opinions of his constituents. The idea of being 100.4
in workhouses was so uncongenial to the feelings °,i tooool
people, however destitute they might be, that all to
si
he had spoken upon the subject were strongly OP°
he measure. f the
Mr. P. SHAW was favourable to the principle,° ortr
measure, and if. the Government thought they CO gr.
teed with it with safety and effect he should be re 07
support them.

Sir RICHARD MUSGRAVE was understood to sup-
the of the measure.
he
Mr,r. YSli said that one point absolutely necessary to
t_ successful working out of this or any other system of
Poor-laws, was a bold and genral of education,
'embracing all classes, and conflicting withsystem the feelings of no
religious sect. This, and a proper system of emigration,
and a good system of public works, would do much to im-
prove and raise the moral and physical condition of the
people of Ireland.
Mr. LUCAS highly approved of the general principle
of this Bill, but there were many of the details which he
should feel it to be his duty toobject to in Committee.
The people in the North of Ireland complained of the ex-
tent of the Unions, and when the Bill went into the Com-
mittee he should feel it his duty to propose their reduction.
_ Mr. PRYME decidedly objected to the principle of the
It would, in his opinion,
diversion of move afford no practical relief to
the poor of Ireland. Its only effect, indeed, would be the
e the poor in the sha y which
of w migagesht otherwise be appropriated
f_.p forproductive lab.
His objections to the
details of the measure he shouldour re-
serve for the Committee.
_ Sir ROBERT PEEL observed that if the Hon. and
Learned Member's objection were valid against the mea-
sure before the House, it was equally valid against the
Principle of Poor-laws altogether, for it was, of course,
qt.iite impossible to raise any money by way of a poor-rate
without diminishing the funds applicable to productive
leahbour.--(Hear, hear, hear.) Now, it was valid as against
everyty altogether, private as well as public, seeing that
as a diminution of funds which might otherwise be given
:;L.,(,)0 productive labour.—(Hear, hear.) The object of a
) or-law was, not to provide employment for the poor, but
%give relief in cases of destitution. Even supposing such
case as that all the able-bodied persons in the country were
itutemployment, there would still be so many cases of desti-
e aged, infirm, and impotent as to form a strong claim to
,Piublic assistance', for it was out of the question to say that
the •
bie charity of private individuals should be made chargea-
with it all. This was the legitimate object of a
Poor-rate ; but the moment it was carried beyond that—
tfolie moment an attempt was made to provide employment
1,,r the poor out of it, then it became liable to the Hon.
l-ember's objection.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It would be
lound that sometime before the 43d Elizabeth, that as far
back„, ;it the reign of Henry VIII., as well as of Edward
1., the necessity for compulsory relief was felt and
some.
llieetned upon ; for at that time if a party refused his
.propor-
of voluntary- assessment to the relief of the destitute, to
and
successive application of the Clergyman, the Bishop,
itittthe Justice of the Peace, he was liable to be co-
ed. rn Then came the 43d Elizabeth, the principle of
With some modifications, they were now about to
a„PPIy to Ireland. He was prepared to give his vote in
pkvour of the second reading of the Bill, for he must con-
tTehss that he could not concur with his Right Hon. Friend
c Member for the University of Dublin, as to the ex-
did not
PediencY of delaying the matter.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He
pretend to deny that be had some doubts as to the
„ult.imate effect of this measure ; but the feeling had become
f'4niversal that it was not consistent with justice or the ur-
Plt demands of charity that there should be no relief for
He Poor of Ireland, while relief was given to the poor in
1.1,) the other parts of the empire.—(Hear, hear.) It was,
therefore, universally admitted that it was necessary to
tsake an experiment, and this being admitted, the sooner
be experiment was made the better. It was self-evident
that
they could never arrive at a satisfactory Poor-law
fThe ort
Ireland without some previous practical experiment.
Lure to e
experiment being made, it would be for the Legisla-
tUre effect such modifications in the system as experience
hould dictate. It appeared to him that the delaying the
raeasure could be of
iuctive of considerable mischief. The House could hardly
Zave fuller information on the subject than was already be-
i\Tr.e them in the Report of the Commissioners and of Mr.
iebolls, and if the measure were delayed, the House
Might find at a future period the public mind in not so
good a state as it was now in for making this very impor-
tant experiment. He should, therefore, vote for the se-
cond reading of the Bill, and he trusted that in its future
Stages it might be allowed to have precedence of the ordi-
Al'ary business of the House not of equal importance. The
neasure came before the House under the very favourable
auspicesau that no one regarded it in the light of a party ques-
Wo Some Hon. Gentlemen had argued the successful
Working of the measure from the successful working of the
new system in England. It was, however, to be observed,
that the new experiment in this country had hitherto been
Working under very peculiarly favourable circumstances,
°Wing
principally to the very general demand for labour. The
841/lecircumstances, however, did not exist at present in
Ireland and the Irish measure varied in several important
Modifications from the English. In the first place they
here about to make the experiment in Ireland without the
Wof settlement which prevailed' here. He was well
awarei how great were the evils arising out of a law of set-
ttaraent, the litigation it gave rise to, the disadvantages of
e'nfinine the ideas of the people within a certain limited
district, the peculiar difficulties of applying it to a people so
migratory in their character as the Irish, and the hardships
their
from preventing poor men, whose only capital was
labour, from carrying that labour wheresoever there
Might be the greatest demand for it ; but, on the other
f.,and, it was difficult to say what would be the operation of
fee workhouse system without a law of settlement.—
(Hear, hear.) In no place would this difficulty be more
aell'iblY felt than in the sea-port towns, where mcndi-
„cants peculiarly resorted. To these mendicants, having
t"? natural connection with the soil, a right would be
hlve,n to enter the workhouse of the place, so that
theef support would fall, not on the parish to which
tenY Would be restricted, were a law of settlement in exis-
for ce. but on the rate-payers of the district which—and
fe good reason in many cases—they might happen to pre-
ex"_---( Hear, hear.) Then, again, relief was to be refused
e`ipt it was administered in the workhouse. Now, he
geriullY acknowledged the advantages of this principle as a
be 741 rule, but he had great doubts whether they would
The regularly to act upon it in all cases.--(Hear, hear.)
twue distinction which had been set up on this point be-
Ace" ,t!le respective systems was rather a fine-drawn one.
feet, c'raulg to the construction of all our laws on the sub-
tn,there existed on the part of the destitute poor of
migfland a clear legal claim to relief, but this legal claim to
ex,was to be refused to the Irish poor. It was admitted
c4"4". Nicholls that this could not apply to extraordinary
oeces; such as famine. Suppose—no unlikely case—the
110 rence of a state of things in which, while the work-
-4 enunse was full, there were other parties in a union of 400
:re, miles, equally destitute with those in the workhouse,
it °Q° as the principle contained in this Bill was established
• w. °41,1 speedily be found very difficult to maintain the po-
'lit.'" that, because the workhouse happened to be full,
tah„.erefore no relief should be given to anybody out of it.—•
I,t!ear, hear.) He must repeat that it was his impression
._7msaprinciple could not be rigidly acted upon. He
vas not afraid that the proposed extent of unions
l'il ld be found too large and cumbersome.—(Hear, hear.)
Tll,
Was another part of the Bill which no doubt pro-
'ceeded from a good motive, and was quite intelligible to
"Y one who applied himself to the subject—he meant the
mode of admission to the workhouse, ivhich no doubt was
intended to discourage applications. By that art of the
Bill it was laid down that if one of a family in a state of
litter destitution applied for admission, he could not be ad-
rnitted unless the whole family accompanied. Now he
oould suppose a family of ten persons, and one of them
y was disabled, his only passport for admission was that
the other nine should also be admitted before he could be
Provided with board and lodging. He saw the object of
beep a regulation, but he feared it would in many instances
the consequence would be either that they must refuse the
""ally destitute admission, or if he is admitted with the rest,
that the workhouses would soon be completely filled—not
with the impotent and disabled only, but there would be
idled to these probably three-tenths of the pauper
- popu-
nP• That involved a principle which it would be ex-
eaie'ngly difficult to carry into effect. Much had been
Zd
had been about Mr. Nicholls's report. That report, he must
, drawn up with great care and attention, and
.opinion of Mr. Nicholls, from his long experience, as
Well as from his being above all suspicion of interested mo-
trs, and from the circumstance that he had spent
f• 01! gr:ater part of his life in devising an improved system
the management of the poor, he
.considered was en-
Itlitelded, to great weight. The vituperation, therefore, which
hp
_ueen cast upon him was wholly uncalled for.—(Hear,
0,;41-.) He thought it proper, also, that they should begin
theut I,`,4'ited scale, because it would be highly expedient
'"eY should see how the Bill would work for two or
oth:e years before they carried it into general operation ;
Were
there might be some danger, if all the destitute
l
!'e ts, be admitted ; and if they considered they had a
w'ght to board and lodging in the workhouses, that they
4vldrather trust to that sort of relief than to their own
ual exertions Now, though he saw considerable
eulties in the way,. y:t if he were asked what other
rriee.4l,
law, nee
would be a more effectual check than a Poor-
Wag should find it difficult to give an answer. Therer
ings°ne other point. MuCh had been said of the suffe -
risantseallsed by landowners ejecting a number of te-
Qvil : and might it not be apprehended that some
In
System at respect might arise from the proposed
that excie to"tne and that the landowner might have recourse
dient, in order ,not to be burdened by heavy
eT`re for the keeping up the workhouses ? As he had
mired as
approved of that part of the Bill which
at first, op!ra,tions to a small portion of the population
extendit lf the system worked well, it would be easy_ to
br
whercas, if the doors were thrown open indiscri
io Yat 013 C3' it might be very difficult afterwards to
g about
a noire coptiveted system of relief. tie would,

port

therefore, support the second reading ; and when the Bill
went into Committee, he would do everything in his power
to find a remedy for any of its defects, in order to render
the measure as perfect as possible.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, at that stage of the Bill, and
the late hour of the night, he would not go into the details
of the Bill, but would make a few observations in reply to
some of the objections urged. He did not regret that these
objections had been urged, because he thought it very useful
that objections should be stated, and that such a course was
likely to be conducive to the adjustment of the different
parts of the measure. The more convenient time, however,
for 'expressing his opinions on these points in detail would
be when the Bill went into Committe. He thought the
Right Hon. Baronet had stated with perfect truth what
he was sorry to say had often been lost sight of in discussions
on the English Poor-laws and Poor-laws for Ireland, viz.,
that a Poor-law was not a general law for providing em-
ployment.—(Hear.) That had been the practice for some
time in England, and it had latterly been fostered to such
an extent, that recourse was had to the Poor-law to make
up the deficiency in wages, and provision made for a de-
serving man with a large family by means of a compulsory
rate, instead of encouraging him to provide for himself and
family by his own individual exertions. He thought this
was a great mistake as to the intentions of a Poor-law. It
had led to great abuses in England, and he should therefore
be sorry to see a Poor-law established, one of the objects of
which was to find employment for labour. He thought the
great advantages of a Poor-law were, first, to relieve the
extremely destitute, which in another state of society might
be left to starve ; and another was, that it gave a right to
the constituted authorities to prevent vagrancy and im-
posture. It had also a beneficial tendency in another
respect, by bringing the landowners and the labourers
into more frequent and closer contact, and by con-
necting them together, thus giving greater social strength
to the whole. With that view of a Poor-law, and at
the same time taking no exaggerated view of destitu-
tion in Ireland, he thought it would be of very great ad-
vantage to that country. With regard to what had been
stated of Mr. Nicholls by the Hon. and Learned Member
for Kilkenny, he wished to say a few words. He was bound
to say that the report of that gentleman was extremely de-
serving of attention. Mr. Nicholls did not take upon him-
self to supersede the Report of the Commissioners, or pro-
pose a new plan. It was well known that the question was
one of great difficulty. A Report was made by the Com-
missioners last spring, and on considering that Report his,
Majesty's Ministers had serious doubts of the practicabi-
lity of many of the parts. These doubts only increased
when they were referred to Mr. Senior, who was compe-
tent, from his experience and ability, to judge of the propo-
sition made in that Report. It therefore did occur that so

far as respected the poor-law, they should not attempt to
apply the principle of the English Bill to Ireland. The
principle which they therefore proposed to adopt was, not
one which might be suitable in England, but one which
was consonant with general reasoning, and which might
be applied in any country where a poor-law was to be
established. That being the case, the Government thought
it would be better to employ a gentleman well acquainted
with the subject. He was accordingly requested by the
Government to employ himself on the subject, with a view
to inquiry ; and on that request. Mr. Nicholls undertook
the journey to Ireland, and entered on the task with a de-
gree of ability, zeal, and attention, alike beneficial to the
public service and to the people of Ireland. With respect
to out-door relief he must say he was opposed to it. He
did not wish to begin by sanctioning out-door relief, be-
cause he saw it would be dangerous in any country, and
more particularly so in a country like Ireland. From a re-
port made by the Mendicity Society it appeared that the
society had great objections to such a plan, on the ground
that it would establish a system similar to that which lately
existed in England, when one-half of the wages was paid
by the parish, and the other half by the landholder or te-
nant. [The Noble Lord read an extract from the Report
to that effect ; and also an extract from the Report of
another Society in Dublin, alike opposed to out-door relief.]
He thought the authority of these two Societies, who
had experience on the point, ought to have great weight,
with regard to the size of the Unions, which was a sub-
ject for consideration in Committee.—(Hear, hear.) He
might say, however, that the size had been fixed from the
experience which the Commissioners had had in England,
and from the fact that when the Union was large there
was less chance of private jobbing. The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet seemed to apprehend some fear that landowners might
be induced to eject their smaller tenants on account of the
operation of a Poor-law. Now, so far from thinking that
ejectments would be more frequent than at the present time,
he thought the contrary would be the effect. At present,
when tenants are ejected they resort to towns and trust to
public charity, but their numbers are eventually greatly di-
minished by fevers brought on by want and suffering, and
they are not much heard of by those who ejected them
because they are not burdened with their maintenance.
But. the case would be very different under a Poor-law
such as that proposed. If the landlord ejected a num-
ber of persons from his estate they would go to the work-
house, and he would find from the increase of the rates that
he gained no advantage by such an expedient ; and besides,
the fact would becOme so notorious that he would be
obliged to desist from the force of public opinion. He
thought too much blame had been cast on Irish landlords.
They had great difficulties to contend with—difficulties im-
posed on them by former generations ; but it was his opi-
nion that by a measure such as that before the House not
only much of the distress which prevailed in Ireland would
be relieved and destitution prevented, but that the landlords
in the long run would be greatly benefited. Respecting the
question of settlement, he would say, that he did not see
how they could adopt it without depriving the labourer of a
fair market for his labour. If the law of settlement was
agreed to, many persons would be driven from a particular
district and forced to subsist by mendicancy, instead of
gaining a livelihood in districts where they thought the de-
mand for labour was the greatest. He was much gratified
with the general tone of this debate. There had been
an absence of party feeling on the subject ; and there
seemed to be a disposition to consider the details of the Bill
with a view to render it as satisfactory as possible. He
was encouraged by that feeling to hope that the Bill
would be allowed to go into Committee ; and he was rather
sanguine in expecting that when the experiment was tried
it would be attended with success. He must say that he
did not calculate on those extraordinary effects from this
measure which some had anticipated ; but he trusted that it
would have considerable power in accomplishing that which
was so very desirable, namely, an improvement in the con-
dition of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Mr. CALLAGHAN said lie did not think that desti-
tution in Ireland was so, extensive as the Commissioners re-
presented it to be ; but he was friendly to a system of poor-
laws. He, however, was apprehensive that the proposed
establishment of workhouses would not be found so bene-
ficial as was anticipated.
The Bill was then read a second time.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he would move that the
Bill be committed pro forma to-morrow ; and he should
then propose that it be re-committed on Monday.
Mr. POTTER said he had a petition to present from
the town he had the honour to represent, and lie wished to
be permitted to state the number of signatures it contained,
and the description of persons who had signed it. The pe-
tition had been agreed to at a public meeting, the Mayor
in the chair, and was signed by the late and present Mayor,
and' by 4,527 individuals, including one County Magistrate,
four Borough Magistrates, ten Aldermen, twenty-two Coun-
cilmen (out of the thirty), the Coroner for the Borough,
Town-clerk, Clerk of the Peace, and a great number of
highly respectable tradesmen ; no petition had ever been
presented from Wigan with anything like the number of
signatures. He felt convinced that there was an increasing
feeling in the country in favour of the Ministerial measure
for the abolition of Church-rates, and a firm belief that it
was founded in justice.
The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the
House adjourned at One o'Clock.

IRISH IVILINICIPAL BILL.-A Meeting was held,
this day (Monday), at Portsmouth, of the Town Council, when
a petition was agreed upon to the House of Lords, in favour of
the Bill for Corporate Reform in Ireland, as being a just,
healing, and wise measure. It was carried unanimously, save
one dissentient; and voted to be presented by Lord Melbourne.
AUSTRIA AND THE AUSTRIANS.-ThiS iS at
once an instructive and an amusing book. A great deal is
told which it is highly necessary to know. There is a great
deal of information, a vast number of anecdotes of distinguished
persons of the last and of the present age, and a mass of gene-
ral instruction, important and novel. The author appears to
have had access to genuine sources of information, and to have
made good use of his time and opportunities. He has had his
eyes about him and he has used them to a proper purpose.—
Times.
GENTLEMAN JACK, BY THE AUTHOR OF
" CAVENDISII."-This new naval novel is inscribed to the
" Old School of the British Navy," and the materials of the
work have been furnished by the distinguished career of one
of the ornaments of this old school. The events that give rise
to so much of the interest as belongs to the incident occurred
between 1790 and the period of the Walcheren expedition :
they are set forth from beginning to end with the graphic free-
dom of touch and the easy power of transition which the author
has displayed in his former sketches ; while they have the ad-
vantage of being manifest realities, and mingled with a good
deal of practical observation, reflection, and suggestion. The
characters, too, are as real as the events.—Court Journal
On Saturday evening last an inquest was held at
the
John
Clark,Yorkshirea
Blackheath Hill, on the body of Mr.
tradesmen of that neighbourhood. It
respectable G rey lnn,
appeared from the evidence that the unfortunate deceased was
going up stairs to bed, and had scarcely ascended two stairs
when he fell down in a fit. Two medical gentlemen were called
in, and attempted to bleed him, but their efforts were unavail-
able,: as the vital spark had fled. Verdict—Died by a fit of
apoplexy.

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 2, 1837.