The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-02 00:00:00

EVENING- EDITION.

recourse to justification ; and how was that to be Mr. O'CONNELL said he was sure the House
proved? Mr. Hansard could not maintain ajustification, would not submit to assert by bill a privilege which they
and the inevitable result would be aggravated damages. had already repeatedly asserted that they did possess.—
In what state would they leave the printer? He (Hear, hear.) And as to the power—why they
might be indicted the next day, and afterwards brought possessed the same means now of asserting this pri-
up for judgment. But let the House allow this to go vilege as they had ever formerly possessed for assert-
en, and evetY one who thought he had a grievance to ing any other ; and the same power which had success-
complain of would bring his action.—(Hear, hear.) fully asserted all the privileges they now possessed.
Every person to whom a copy of a document was trans- Their committal terminated by prorogation. He ad-
mitted by a Member might bring his action, and per- mitted that. But if there were manifested a contu-
haps against that Member. But the House might also macious resistance to their authority, would not that be
be called on to pay annually large sums of money as an met by a renewal of adjournments, thus prolonging the
indemnity to the printer for costs, imprisonment, &c. punishment of those who had defied them.—(Hear,
But what was the remedy proposed by the Right Hon. hear.) He did not like to differ upon this subiect
Gentleman ? Abandon the sale. They would then from the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, whose speeches
be in no better situation.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with on the question had been so distinguished by ability, and
respect to the Prison Report, they were asked for it who had taken so manly a part respecting it.—(Hear,
by Magistrates and by persons connected with prison hear.) But the Right Hon. Baronet had congratu-
discipline. What would they do in such a case ? Would latsd the House upon the improbability of their
being
they have a Committee of publication, who should charged with precipitancy in pursuing the course pointed
purge out every atom of a libellous nature? Who out by the Noble Lord. Against the charge of preci-
would form such a Committee? Who had the indus- pitancy he (Mr. 0 Connell) certainly thought they
try, the time, the talent? If they sat from day to day, would be secure ; but he feared they would be
their task would never be performed. •But suppose it accused of timidity and shrinking—(Hear, hear)—
was; what then? The effect would be that if they for let it be observed that Mr. Shaw, the attorney,
struck out the evidence affecting the character of Mr. had actually committed a breach of privilege. He had
Polack, and let itgo before the public, it might be cal- written a letter, which was intended to obviate the ne-
culated to mislead those who were about to emigrate.—
cessity for personal service—a letter which, to any man
(Hear.) . If the House failed in this case, they might not about to abscond, would be as efficacious as the ac-
abandod their privilege for ever. Let this not be con-
tual service of a writ ; and which was a substantial and
sideredas a case of personal privilege, such as being free virtual, if not a formal and technical commencement of
from arrest, the abuse of which had brought all the pri- the action.—(Hear, hear.) The present was the
vileges of the House into great and merited disgrace.— strongest case in favour of the House that could possi-
(Cheers.) Let it not b considered a case in which bly arise.—(Hear, hear.) He had intended to move
1 rn-
Members were individually interested, but a case in that both Messrs. Polack and Shaw should be co
which they were compelled by a sense of duty to enter mitted ; for if Mr. Shaw's, the (attorney) letter was not
into end encounter with the highest judicial authority authorized by Mr. Polack, the attorney would be struck
in the country, and unless they did that they would be off the Rolls, so that it was a legal presumption that Mr.
abandoning their duty to the public. On this ground Polack was responsible for the letter equally with Mr.
he would stand, and he feared not the result. Let Shaw. The judgment of the Court of Queen's Bench had
the public know that if the House succeeded not in been condemned by every dispassionate Member of the
thus standing—that a most valuable fund of informa- profession—a more lame and unsatisfactory judgment he
tion, which for ages had now been dispersed from one never heard—it totally shrunk from the real question
end of the country to the other, which had added at issue. Why, before this, Judges had been subjected
greatly to the stock of knowledge—which had created to inquiry by that House ;it was the duty of the House
to watch over the conduct of the Judges, but if the
the greatest improvements—which had set the human
House published the result of this inquiry, the very
mind a-thinking—which had enabled the House to do,
Judge accused might pass a sentence of condemnation
. what otherwise it could not have done, to lay important
' truths before their constituents, and enable their con- on the House for publishing a libel.—(Hear, hear.)
stituents to understand the motives of their actions—
And yet could the House impeach a Judge or address
let the public know that if the House bowed to the de- the Crown for his dismissal without publishing the evi-
dence on which they acted. In all such cases, the
cision of the Court of Queen's Bench upon this matter,
House must not only satisfy themselves but the public.
all this wide and important flow of information must be
They were there by the authority of the people, who
for ever stopped.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
were their masters, and whom they were bound to
Now, a few words as to the terms in which the Hon.
satisfy. But they were told they must not libel. Did
Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) had said the Noble Lord had
the Hon. Baronet know the legal definition of a libel
spoken of the judgment of the Court of Queen's Bench,
A libel was that which hurt the feelings of anybody.
The Hononrable Baronet had said those terms were
It had been held to be a libel to call Lord Hardwick a
calculated to depreciate the Judges of that Court in
sheep-feeder in Cambridgeshire, and to call Lord Redes-
public estimation, and that these were not the times
dale a stout-built special pleader, although that Noble
in which high judicial authorities ought to be depre-
Lord was stout built, and had been a special pleader of
ciated.—(Hear.) He (Sir S. L.) knew of no times
great celebrity. No abuse could exist without an
when high judicial authorities ought to be depreciated.
abuser. No grievance without an oppressor, and yet
—(Hear, hear.) But had the Noble Lord been justly
to denounce that abuser and oppressor would be a libel.
so charged ? Had the Noble Lord said one single
Nothing could be more absurd than to attempt to con-
word beyond that which the circumstances of the case
duct the affairs of this county if they were thus shackled.
required, to render his argument sound, and safe, and
Nothing could be more humorous or convincing
sure ?—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had said that
than the argument of the Right Hon. Baronet to
the Court of Queen's Bench had taken a narrow and
show the necessity of the publication in this very case.
contracted view of this great and important question.
But what was the proposed resolution ? It was merely
That was true.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The
saying the same thing over and over again. They had
judgmentrnanifested it.—( Hear, hear.) It was a most
done nothing since 1837. They had passed a resolution
extraordinary production—the great abilities of those
in that year ; and now in 1839, when an attorney, in
Learned Judges seemed surely to have been somewhat
the teeth of that resolution, had commenced an action,
contracted by the narrow sphere of the Court in which
they were repeating the same thing in weaker words.
I they were now sitting, and they seemed to have entirely
By doing, this, were they not guilty of shrinking from
forgotten the high and important duties which the Mem- their resolut ? Again, in the present year they had
hers of the House of ,Commons had to discharge.am
come to a similar resolution ; was not that an additional
What were the questions asked by these Judges ? Why,
notice ? And now, after all their vapouring, they now
for what purpose this House suffered the publication of
again contented themselves with repeating what they
the Report upon Prison Discipline.—(Loud cries of
s: ,me do sme other time. He wanted them to do
Hear, hear.) Could that question have been asked by
something now.—(Cheers.) The House had shown a
h is Noble and Learned Friend at the head of the
Court of Queen's Bench ?—(Hear, hear.) Could his
hesitation on this subject, and the consequence was this
Noble and Learned Friend have forgotten the many
man set them at defiance. They had been threatening
years he was in that House, and the many able long enough, and he thought the time was now come to
speeches which he had delivered, always in defence of act.—(Cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who spoke in a very low
the highest principles of public liberty—speeches which
tone, and was sometimes inaudible, said that further in-
he could never have delivered—speeches, the material of
formation had reached him on this subject since he had
which he never could have discovered had it not been
last addressed the House. The Hon. and Learned
for the reports of Select Committees.—(Hear, bear.)
Gentleman had insisted on the necessity of proceeding
The Judges of the Court of Queen's Bench were all of
ieainst the attorney who had commenced these pro-
them most highly to be esteemed, but this he (Sir S. •
ceedings, and against Mr. Polack, who had instructed
Lushington) would say, without any hesitation, if they
him, without delay. Since he had last addressed the
were to be tried by their own expressed opinion upon
House he had received a letter signed " J. Po-
this occasion they knew not the duties of this House—lack," stating that these proceedings had been
they knew not the functions which they had to
commenced, without his authority or knowledge, and that
perform—they knew not what was required of
them—they knew not what they were bound having obtained damages from the Times newspaper,
he had given instructions to his attorney not to proceed
to do.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If, the House sub-
with the other actions. This showed that it had been
mitted to that judgment—if they were to burn their
papers at, the end of each Session, they would destroy his interest to have instituted other actions, but that
having obtained a verdict, he had not thought proper to
the circulation which spread truth through the country
proceed with them. He considered this letter a suf-
-which enabled the people to judge whether they were
ficient vindication of the course which he had adopted,
doing their duty—which explained to their constituents
instead of at once proceeding more vigorously against
matters which it was for their benefit to understand—
the attorney and against Mr. Polack, but this did pre-
and which enabled the country to see the manner in
elude the necessity for coming to these resolutions.
which they administered the high functions with
What he had read was merely a letter, and was not in
which they were entrusted.—(Hear, hear.) The Court
the shape of a petition to the House, so that the House
of Queen's Bench, professing to decide the matter upon
precedent, had rejected those sound and important pre- could take cognizance of it ; and as notice of action had
cedeots which would have warranted another conclu-
been given to Messsrs. Hansard it was necessary
that the House should take that opportunity of
I sion, and had resorted to others which ought never to
declaring the intention to all parties, and whe-
i have been acknowledged.—(Hear, hear.) But really
they these proceedings were so or not, it would be a
-no more could be said upon the question. There was
waving to other parties how they considered similar
first the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
proceedings could be sufficient to show that in any
ber for Tamworth, a year or two ago—remarkable for
its talent—for its ors :suit and for its does- case of contest the House was determined to vindi-
p
sign—(Hear, hear, hear)—then y,
there was the speech
cute its right of publication. With regard to what
of the Attorney-General in Court— (Hear, hear) steps should be taken, and to the advise which had
been given as to how far the House should interfere
—and last of all there was the speech which had been
made in that House by the Hon. and Learned Sergeant with those Judges who were sworn to the discharge
the Member for Newark (Sergeant Wilde), unparal- of the duties, it was a matter of serious consideration—
leled inability—(Loud cheers)—brilliant in ,lucidity— and he could not say what course he would advise
when suclia case should be brought before them. But
(Cheers)—in argument, not a word that did Iyd:A follow
he thought the course so ably and so eloquently pointed
as an inevitable consequence—(Hear, hear)— and as a
out:by an Hon. and Learned Gentleman the other night,
Parliamentary lawyer, as a man versed in the Con stitu- would be the one most calculated to prove effectual in
tion of his country, his Hon. and Learned Friend must
pressing the dignity of that House.
ever stand foremost, if only on account of that :speech. Sir R. PEEL explained.
—(Loud cheers.) Let not the House, however, shut Mr. O'CONNELL, before proceeding to a division,
their eyes to the consequences of their interposition in
wished to ascertain if the letter of Shaw was genuine,
this matter—tremendous as they might be ; the wisdom
and with that view suggested the postponement till to-
was to presume the best—but certainly they should me
prepared for the worst. They must be prepa.-ed for morrow.
encountering. the poputar outcry against them, as at- Lord HOWICK thought the ascertaining that fact
t eking the henit legal aufhorities of the country-' - thy was immaterial. Messrs. Hansard had received a no-
tice of action—they had applied to the House, and
bmeuist be prepared for great unpopularity
at first,!eying as he did, that the power contended for b'
was
had been desired to take no notice of any proceedings,
necessary to the public welfare, he declared that, as far as they were bound to protect them, and whether the letter
his
humble character was of any weight, he would grad: 'y was genuine or not, it was of the utmost importance
share any amount of unpopularity that might be thy, they should agree to this resolution.
result of contending for this privilege.—(Hear, hear.) The House then divided, when there appeared—
A few words as to their course of proceeding. He For the resolution
thought the course which his Noble Friend had reeorn- Against it
mended was the right one. They could not at present i Majority
proceed against the attorney,ysw who had not hitherto BANK OF IRELAND.
Ire-
adopted any legal proceedin
hear.)te" . But the moment' 't—hes-
h action, he (Sir S.
what must, indeed,(Cries of . Hear,
attorney b rou ght
Lushington) would ;lily ise
suggest itself to b el ise,
that against the attorney, and against
individual acting with him, the House shoualdny
every oy, On the •
motion that the Report on the Bank of
land Acts be received,
Mr. O'CONN ELL objected to its reception at pre-
sent. They had received no information from the
Chancellor of the Exchequer relative to two sums
"1. 'e,ar which the Bank of Ireland had at interest, one of four
prow(
l{
if
with povferful coercive measures.—(Hear, hear.) . and another of five per cent., being an average of
wool' 1 41. 7s. fid. per cent., before the renewal of the Charter,
they went only half-way and then stood still, they
the House ought to be informed of the disposition of
e
secure their own defeat and disgrace, and d preciatt
this sum. There had been no arrangement made with
the character of the House in the eyes of the country.--•
' (Hear, hear.) They might have to proceed t ats the Bank of Ireland, and lie should like to know what er-
g g
after rangement it was proposed to enter into on this subject.
length—to commit solicitor after solicitor—counsel
counsel—they might have to go further still—possibly, The Chancellor of the Exchequer had reproached him
because he had said he had paid 23,0001. too
he did not deny, though he hoped not—they mig ht
hale to commit the Judges themselves (Hear, heal ..) much to the Bank of Ireland ;in consequence of that
Deeply should he regret that by any difficulty— the Pim se Ire had looked into the subject, and it was his opinion
l, 1, that the debt to the Bank of Ireland might have been should be driven to such a step. But if they sham
he trusted that they would not abandon their cause.-, -, paid off at any time, as there were no words in the
(Hear, hear.) It tens said that they Act which prevented the Crown from doing so at any
to the end of a Session—that the action?"
e inm the e ' time. At all events, it mieht have been paid off on the
recess, be brought to a conclusion,judgment entered,.
e e would the Holes e Ist of January, 18:38'. Now, every one was aware that
and so on. What was then to be doo money then might have been got much cheaper than
aitf
ewas asked, re-argue the case, and punish the part:, s i 41. is. 6d. per cent. At any time previous to that
eatserwards ? To this he would reply—Re-arguet 'se
t period a single line of an advertisement would have
not ; but punish the parties he tit '- procured the money on much lower terms. Why was
certainlydtai.ludbtheedl would—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")-- - the question brought before the House at such a late
.
A, oped it would be distinctly understood that is '• period of the Session, and at a time when money was
las he doubted would be the case, the action wen : scarce, and consequently dear ? ThelChancellor of the
'brought to ctohn.clusion after the prorogation of Par. ingExchequer had stated no reason whatever for bring-
liament, that
breach heir this ri 1
eHouseges_ t
ivivoouugl
idl consider i
committed
equally
du- a forwardlB3B, the measure at that period, except that in
,(one,
ring their satinupon. him. .He would not again enter into ttie quess
(Hear, hear, hg—and would punish it accordingly,--•
hoped that the ePlro.) non of deception or no deception—he had never mill
In conclusion he most fervently there had been intentional deception, but the depute-
duty
the would not abandon
carion, the ,on this oc- tions were certainly led to believe that something would
(Cheers.) - y owed to the publi •
cat large.— have been done list Session. That was the way in which
Mr. FRESHFTEL •
doubt which they were treated—the measure was delayed until nearly
state the conscientious D wished with diffidence to the close of the Session without any reason, but merely
his mind as to theiporredsent which pressed upon
Lords had published Reporte tiaat it was the will of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
that the House of denieind
question—they had comneunicated privileeedthrir
Htteorosin
admitted that a,ld the consequence was, that it not being a party ques-
then, he was compelled to address nearly empty benches.
a privileged manner.
had a clear right to publishof their proceedin s to he.
tii the casep
na :le:: i rtge (1,1 .a. He protested against such treatment ; and having done
osition of the so, and not wishing to discuss that which had already
extent which the necessity been discussed fully, he would only further observe, that
felt a difficulty in negativing
t this Noble Lord. He was prepared to ^ r°'
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given an undue
magnitude to the question in dispute. Some would be
House might direct that, by meanst° led to believe that the Bank of Ireland was some grand
of Messrs. Han-
sard, or any other persons, a certain & ~nd mighty engine of great public importance, regulating
publication of •
their proceedings should take place.tt se currency and the course of Exchange. Now, what
He attached no
distinction to the sale, or to
the non-sal V? As the fact Where the Bank of England, with its
eof the ' • • ?
document. But he doubted whether the 2 A millions of securities, its 18 millions of circulation,
House could_
claim to treat the question as one of privilege
suggested whether the proper course of
proceeding
; and he• . : 1 -of ' dd
the e, rcu ation the Bank of Ireland was only onean -
would net be by bills, not declaratory, but • - a-half eat•ll. i inns • and its circulation within the limits for
_ enacting ;. II- • '
and thereby, deciding the question .
. in the only way in w leo he fought was only one million one hundred
which it appeared thousand pounds, and it was for that paltry circulation
arrivedto him that the decision could effec-
tually beat. He would observe that there was that the Char, cellor of the Exchequer wanted to con-
a publication whichthe House could not possibly claim tame a monopo Ty. He (Mr. O'Connell) had said
g to protect—which something to show tl
_ the demerits of the Bank, but it
species of publication,yet was the most useful
was for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to show
followed the ass and one which necessarily
merits sufficient to justify the continuance of the
,_ assertion of the right now urged for—he monopoly. " In free letaking towns the Post-
-menteodrt eh s which took place after the docu- office revenue had riven twenty-five per cent.
House pesfi,t, E ands of their printe - C ld '
re. _Jou tne '
uply Protect the • while in Dublin it had decreased twenty-five per cent.,
which ,
might
subsequent . successive republicatior,s
ly follow their • • . makine a difference of no less than fifty per cent. ; and ,
documents ? publication of tl e • .
3 ' while Belfast and other free banking places were firm- [