The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-03 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, AUGUST 2.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'Clock.
A message from the House of Commons brought up
the Highway Rates Amendment Bill, to which they de-
sired their Lordships' concurrence ; and several other
Bills.

Lord FALKLAND presented three petitions from
places in Scotland, praying their Lordships to take
into consideration the present law of patronage in
Scotland. Also a petition from Coleraine, and another
place, praying that Presbyterian soldiers might be
allowed to attend Presbyterian places of worship.
Likewise a petition, praying for the immediate adoption
of a penny postage.
Upon the motion of Lord REDESDALE the
Turnpike Tolls' Bill passed through a Committee.
The Earl of RIPON presented a petition from Lam-
beth, against the Metropolis Police Bill, which obtruded
the police force on the inhabitants of Lambeth.
STATE OF IRELAND.
Lord BROUGHAM read over the resolutions upon
the subject of Ireland that he intended to move on
Tuesday next, stating that he should furnish his Noble
Friend at the head of the Government, and also the
Noble Duke opposite, with a copy of them.
ADDRESS.

Lord BROUGHAM then desired to call the atten-
tion of the House to a subject which he considered to
be of the most vital importance, he meant the conse-
quence that was likely to arise from the rejection of
the Slave Trade (Portugal) Bill last night.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) He felt that if information of that
rejection were to go out to Portugal and the Brazils
without being accompanied by information of some
other step being taken, it would be considered as a
sanction from the House of Lords of, and en-
couragement to the infernal crime of traffic that
was now going on there. That being the
case he begged to move, that an humble address be
presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty
would be graciously pleased, by all means within her
Majesty's power, to negotiate with the Governments of
foreign nations of Europe as well as in America, for
their concurrence in her efforts to put down the traffic
in slaves ; and also that her Majesty would be graci-
ously pleased to give such orders to her cruisers as
might be calculated to put a stop to such traffic, parti-
cularly under the Brazilian:or Portuguese flags; and assur-
ing her Majesty,' that. their Lordships would support her
in any measures she might adopt for this purpose. The
Noble and Learned Lord was morally certain that if
this House adopted this address, and a similar one were
adopted in the other House, the evil might be remedied.
The Earl of WICKLOW objected to the address
without previous notice.
Lord MELBOURNE viewed with the deepest
concern the result of the vote of last night. Cer-
tainly the effect of it ought to be counteracted
as speedily as possible, and he was afraid that
the present motion would scarcely be sufficient
for that—still it ought to be adopted at once ;
under ordinary circumstances it would be necessary that
notice of it should be given ; but regard being had to
the urgency of the present case, the delay of giving
notice ought not to submitted to. He considered that
the vote of last night had struck a severe blow at the
foreign policy of this country, and deeply injured its
dignity with foreign powers.
Lord COLVILLE supported the address, and
thought the circumstances ought to induce the House
to dispense with any necessity of a notice.
Lord MINTO warmly supported an immediate
adoption of the address.
The Duke of WELLINGTON considered that the
Government ought to have done more in the shape of
remonstrance with Portugal upon its own responsibility.
No man could be more anxious to have an end put to this
traffic than himself, but Parliament ought not to be called
upon to legislate in this manner without some previous
step having been taken by her Majesty's Ministers
He had no objection to the first part of the address
but as to the last part of it would be for the Govern-
ment to act in adopting such measures as they might
think proper upon their own responsibility, and then
he should be happy to afford all the assistance in his
power. He did not think he had been dealt fairly by.
The Noble Lord had said he (the Noble Duke) had
deserted the Ministers of the Crown. He could only
tell that Noble Lord that he would find him sticking
to the Ministers of the Crown, and to the Crown after
that Noble Lord had left them.—(lmmense cheering.)
He would find him performing his duty to the best of
his conscience upon all occasions, but he was not to
be put upon, and by a motion framed in this way, told
that though he rejected the Bill last night upon the prin-
ciple he then stated, he should have this address forced
upon him, which would, in point of fact, be the same as
having passed that Bill.—(Loud cheers.) He was
ready to support any measures which the Ministers
of the Crown might think proper to adopt for the pur-
pose of putting down the slave trade, and enforcing the
treaties with other Powers, but he should not do one
thing one night andcome down and undo it the next.
Lord BROUGHAM'S perfect conviction was, that
the plain and intelligible meaning of the words of the
address were sufficient to protect the Noble Duke in
agreeing to it, from acting, or being supposed to act,
inconsistently with what he had done last night.
The Marquis of LANDSDOWNE considered that
it would be one of the heaviest misfortunes that could
befal the whole of Europe if information of what took
place last night was to go out to Portugal unexplained.
issuew i tft ttuhgea
Nboubtl e top
ugkoe tuop
own'arthsarti.th
—( Hear, hear.) There were now no means of dealing
with
Hear,
hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) He would take
All means of
negotiation with her were at an end, and we ought
not to go to war with that old ally without •
having passed
the Bill that was rejected last night, because if that had
been passed a remonstrance \night then have been sent
out to her, accompanied by- the acts which that Bill
would have authorised, and then she would have had
one more chance of acceding to the wishes of England,
when the absolute necessity of it was pointed out to her.
The Duke of WELLINGTON begged to say that
he took the distinction between
een going to war upon an
Act of Parliament, and
going to war upon the responsi-
bility of the Ministers of the Crown. The former he
did not approve of. He tleought the Crown ought to
be responsible for any measure of
likely to produce it, and therefore it was he adopted the
course he did last night in op posing the Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM warned their Lordships
against any delay—for even if on Tuesday next the ad-
dress was carried unanimously the result would be, if
a single packet was allowed ito go to Portugal before it
was carried, that slave ships would be fitted out for the
purpose of carrying on that inhuman traffic.
The Earl of HADDINGTON said it was impos-
sible, after the course the debate had taken, and the
hints that had been thrown out with respect to the
conduct of the House last night, in rejecting the Bill,
for him to refrain from vim lieating the vote he had
then given. The Noble and, Learned Lord opposite
(Brougham), for the purpose of preventing the evil that
he was afraid would result from the rejection of the
measure, had come down to that House with an ad-
dress to which the Noble Vise ount acceded, and if he had
stopped there all would have b een well, but he had chosen
to lecturet neir Lordships, in no very measured terms,
as to the evil that would rest dt from the course they
had chosen to adopt last niett, and in that course he
had been followed by the Noble Earl at the head of the
Admiralty and the *Noble Viscount the President of
the Council. Those Noble Losrds had thrown out hints
that Noble Lords on that slide of the House had a de-
sire, in the course they had ;adopted, to keep up the
slave trade traffic. No one lo oked upon that traffic with
more horror than he did. 19e agreed with the Noble
Duke that the Crown ought Jo act in this matter and
not Parliament. By the pros ent Bill a war was to be
declared by Act of Parliameu t, because by it those sti-
pulations were provided which it was impossible for
Portugal to perform. He he.d resisted the measure be-
lieving it to be unconstitutionali, and notwithstanding all
he had heard he still believed it- to be so.
The Earl of MINTO was ;tt a loss to know what was
meant in describing this Bill as unconstitutional, and
one that was intended to make a declaration of war.
It was no such thing. All that was intended to be
provided for by it, was to give to her Majesty the
power to act in this subject as she thought proper,
which, as the case at present stood, she could not do.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE felt perfectly satisfied
the vote he had given last nig lit was a just one. He
could not agree with the No ,le Viscount, that if the
resolution were agreed to, they ?Must adopt some measure
similar to that which they had thrown out last night.
The Earl of RIPON thought that the country had
a right to call upon Portugal I;o carry out the treaties
into which she had entered, and that being the object
of the resolution, it should have his support.
After a few observations fro,ea the Earl of WICK-
LOW, the address was agreed to.
CRIME IN IRELAND.
The Marquis of NORMANDY wished to know
whether the Noble and Learnt d Lord had changed his
intention with reference to the isesolutions he had placed
on the table of the House the Other night. He wished
also to know whether he had not altered some of the re-
solutions, particularly that with respect to the exercise
of the prerogative of mercy. He should be perfectly
prepared to defend the course lie had adopted in that
respect, but he thought it rya s rather too much to call
upon him to read over in three days evidence which it
required their Lordships three months in Committee
to take.
Lord BROUGHAM said that none of the resolu-
tions had been altered, but ones had been taken out.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE put it to his Noble and
Learned Friend whether it would not be better to put off
his motion to Friday in order fhat Noble Lords might
make themselves acquainted more particularly with the
evidence. He thought that it would take Noble Lords
a fortnight at least to get through the evidence.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the evidence had already
been before the House a fortnight. If he was to postpone
his motion from Tuesday to Friday it would have this
foolish effect, namely, that of alto wing the debate on Rib-
bonism to take precedence.—( Hear, hear.)

After a few observations from the Duke of Wellington,
Lord Hatherton, and the Earl of Wicklow,
Lord BROUGHAM stated that he was resolved to
proceed with his motion on Tuesday.
UNLAWFUL OATHS.

On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON,
The Committee on the Unlawful Oaths (Ireland) Bill
was postponed from Tuesday to Thursday.
WARWICKSHIRE MAGISTRACY:
The Earl of WARWICK wished to say a few words
relative to the reports that had been put forth with respect
to hirn relative to the appointment of Magistrates in the
county of Warwick. In consequence of the course he had
thought proper to pursue a short time back in their Lord-
ships' House relative to the Magistrates of Birmingham, a
letter had been sent abroad, in the form of a circular,
which contained the most false staements. In that letter
it was asserted that he had been influenced in the ap-
pointment of Magistrates by political considerations and
party purposes.--( Hear, hear.) He denied that
he had ever had any such object in view, and he
could assure their Lordships that in every appointment
he had made the good of the country, and not his own in-
terests, were at heart. In the letter it had been stated
that during the time he had been Lord Lieutenant he had
placed upwards of 60 clergymen in the Commission of
the Peace. Now what was the fact? Why, that during
the silventeen years be had been Lord Lieutenant he had
placed only twelve clergymen in the Commission of the
Peace. Notwithstanding all the statements that had been
put forth he adhered to what had been stated to their
Lordships the other night, and now reiterated it.
REGISTER OF BIRTHS.

- -
Lord DUNCANNON moved the second reading of
this Bill.

The Bishop of LONDON objected to this Bill. He
thought that'a measure of such importance ought not to
have been introduced at so late a period. Upon its
going into Committee it was his intention to claim
the same consideration for himself that had been given to
all dissenting bodies.

Lord LYNDHURST thought it was very inconvenient
that this Bill should be brought forward at so late a period
of the Session.
The Bishop of LONDON said this was one of the
last Bills that ought to have been submitted in the first
instrmce to the other House of Parliament. It would be
much better that the Bill should be withdrawn, and then
brought forward at an early period of the next Session, so
that it and others of a similar nature might be referred to a
Select Committee of their Lordships' House.
Lord LYNDHURST quite agreed in this, and wished
to know whether the Noble Viscount would have any ob-
jection to it.
Lord MELBOURNE said the necessity of a charge of
the custody seas admitted, and be did not see any sufficient
reason for dela) ing the measure longer.
Lord LYNDHURST said it appeared from the state-
ment of the Noble Lord that the Report of the Comissioners
was laid on the table of that and the other House
last Session, therefore there had been plenty of time long
befoie this to have turned attention to it. Instead of that
having been done the Bill had only been sent up about
three weeks ago, and it was a Bill of so much importance
that be thought it ought to be thrown out this Session, in
order that it might be brought in next, at a period which
would afford ample time for giving it due conside-
ration. He therefore moved as an amendment that this
Bill be read a second time this day three months.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided—
For the amendment 69
Against it 3B
Bill lost by —3l
JURORS AND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Upon our re-admission, we found
Lord DUNCANNON moving the Order of the Day
for the second reading of the Jurors and Juries (Ireland)
Bill, and which he hoped the House would have no ob-
jection to.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH did not consider that this
Bill would remove the evils it was intended to remedy.
By an imperfection in a Bill that had been brought in by
a Noble Lord opposite, this Bill had been rendered neces.
sary from what had taken place in Tipperary.
Lord HATHERTON defended himself in a few words,
although he admitted it was in consequence of an unfor-
tunate word in the Jury Act, that it happened there were
not Juries to be empanelled at Tipperary. Still he had
never been more surprised than he had been to find that
the Magistrates had not done their duty in revising the
Jury lists and having Juries.

The Earl of \VIOKLOW did not mean to give the
Bill any opposition. At the same time he did not think it
would be an efficient Bill, nor did he think the Magistrates
of Tipperary had been to blame.
Lord GLENGALL did not think the Magistrates ought
to be blamed.

The Bill was then read a second time.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)
BILL.
Lord MELBOURNE moved the Order of the Day,
that the Report with amendments of of the Municipal Cor-
porations ( Ireland) Bill be received.
The LORD CHANCELLOR proposed an amend
meat that had been moved. As the Bill stood there would,
in the opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord, be a con-
tinual manufactory of honorary freemen, which his amend-
ment proposed to remedy. Also as to the corporations ; es
Schedule B stood, any person would have a right to vote
without being freemen, as if this Act had not passed. His
amendment proposed to remedy this state of things also by
leaving the pretensions of those who claimed to vote to
be tried upon their legal rights. The effect of his
amendment would be to restore the Bill to the way in
which it was before the amendment of which he complained
was introduced.
Lord L YNDHURST said that this amendment had
been introduced after the best consideration by those who
had brought it forward. The amendment was in the Bill
last Session, and no objection had then been made to it
either by this or the other House of Parliament. The
principle of the elau-se inserted by way of amendment
was this, their Lordships had interfered with and taken
away corporate rights, but that the individuals who, if no
alteration had taken place, now and hereafter would have
been entitled to vote for Members of Parliament, which
was a different right altogether, should continue to ex-
ercise that right just as if their corporate rights had not
been taken away.
The Earl of WICKLOW felt himself in a difficulty.
There seemed to be a complete difference between the
two Noble and Learned Lords who bad spoken upon
the facts. He wished to be consistent, and if the Noble
and Learned Lord on the Woolsack could not show him
that his Noble and Learned Friend was wrong in his

facts, be must vote with the latter.
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained. The real
object of his amettlment was to exclude the descendants
of honorary freemen.

Lord fANDHURST complained that the proposal
from his Learned and Noble Friend on the Woolsack was
not to be limited as he had stated, because his amendment
went to exclude the descendants of all freemen whatever.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said if his Noble and
Learned Friend's object simply was to preserve the rights
of the parties, his object would be answered by allowing
the Bill to remain as it originally was, and then leaving
the law to decide the rights of the parties upon a man-
damus.

The Marquis of WE STME ATH objected to the alte-
ration proposed by the Noble and Learned Lord on the
Woolsack, and entreated their Lordships not to listen to
this fourth attempt at Whig Parliamentary Reform of
Ireland.
Lord EL L ENBOROUG H said he and his Noble
Friends wished to retain to the poor persons whom this
clause was intended to protect, the right they had alwa3s
had of voting for Members of Parliament, whereas the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack wished to take
away the rights of those persons. That was the effect of
the amendment he now proposed, and he would put it to
the House which party was entitled to be called the more
Liberal party now.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the Noble
Lords opposite only wished to extend this right to a cer-
tain class of poor persons.
The Gallery was cleared for a division upon the clause
as it stood—

Contents
Non-contents
Majority —27
When we obtained re-admission we found

Lord MELBOURNE stating that in consequence of
the vote their Lordships had come to he should follow the
same course he had taken on former occasions, that of send-
ing this Bill back to the House of Commons, but certainly
without the most remote hope of the Bill's passing now
this Session.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH was extremely surprised to
hear this statement, because he was thoroughly satisfied
that without the amendment the House had adopted,
justice never could be done to the Corporations of Ireland.
Lord MELBOURNE was of a different opinion, re-
gard being had to the peculiar state of Ireland.
Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY thought that all
that had fallen from the Noble Lord opposite went to show
the propriety of the amendment, which the [louse had re-

solved upon retaining.
Several clauses were then proposed as amendments by
Noble Lords on the opposite benches, which were not con-
tested.

Lord LYNDHURST would submit to the Noble
Viscount that if it was not the intention of Government to
proceed with the Bill the better course would be to with-
draw it at once.

Lora MELBOURNE said no, he should not do that.
Lord LYNDHURST did not think that sending the
Bill down to the other House merely for the purpose of
having a controversy between the two Houses upon it was
the course that her Majesty's Ministers ought to adopt.
The Report was then received with amendments, and
Lord MELBOURNE gave notice that he should (as
we understood) move the third reading on Monday next.
LOWER CANADA AMENDMENT BILL.
The Marquis of NO RM ANBY moved the Order of the
Day for the third reading of the Lower Canada Amend-
ment Bill. The Noble Marquis had prepared a clause
defining the purposes to which the funds from loans should
not be applied, and which he was willing to add, if the
House wished it, although he thought it was not necessary.
The introduction of the clause was not asked for, and
the Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Prisoners Trial Bill passed through a Committee.
Upon the motion of Lord L YNDfi UR ST, the Cus-
tody of Infants Bill was read a third time, with soma
verbal amendments, and passed.
The Prisoners' Trial Bill went through Committee, and
was ordered to be reported on Monday.
The Double and Treble Costs Bill was read a second
time, on the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR,
and was ordered to be committed.

---7 The other Bills on the table were forwarded a stage,
and the House adjourned, at Half-past Ten o'Clock, to
Monday.

HO USE OF COMMONS, Auatur 2.
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly before Four
o'Clock.

Captain HAMILTON was introduced by Lord Nor-
reys, and Sir Thomas Freemantle, and took the oaths
and his seat for Aylesbury.