The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 11, 1863

State. I trust, from the action of her Majesty's Govern.
ment, such cases will not happen again to British subjects,
but with regard to Mr. Belsham I cannot tell where he is.
We have heard no more of him since the statement received
from Mr. Moore.

Mr. GREGORY—I wish to ask the hon. gentleman the
Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs two questions, which
1 think he can answer at once. The first is, when he spoke
of torture being applied to a British subject, did he mean
torture, and that it was employed on the part of the autho-
rities of the Confederate Government ? (Hear, hear.) The
second question is, whether, inasmuch as this is a very grave
affair, he will lay all the papers connected with the case on
the table of the house ?
Mr. LAYA RD—I am afraid that torture, in the strict
sense of the word, has been inflicted, and I am bound to say
that these acts were committed by persons apparently acting
under the general authority of the Confederate Government,
but at a distance from the seat of Go vernment. On Monday
next I will state whether the papers can be produced.

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to express my opinions frankly ; but never did one word
the
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d23hda
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stated.
.mauonlpndytn
hyoit
notwhen have
veelef
could not have adopted the same tone. (Hear, h aer
I must say that what fell from my hon. friendeisrbutSttoilol
true ; and I am desirous of stating and proving to the
house—although I do not bring down a note. book for the
purpose—that that statement is too true. The question is
a very delicate one; but I could have proved, without re-
ference to books or notes—which under no circumstances
that
despatch etthe
I would produce—that the despatch referred to by my hon,
aUbne
ud et rt-h See emr eotna rryh asof theFe
February;
despatchro s
ry ;and
and learned friend was not the despatch referred to by
November,
proves which
had been published in the Noniteur, but a despatch written
tha
that there was too much truth in the rumour with respect to
it. However, I go no further into the question, as I con-
sider the statement of the noble lord of far more importance
than any obloquy cast upon me, inasmuch as it concerns the
peace and happiness of 10,000,000 of people and holding the
opinion that if the word " recognition" was nronounced in
eor cert with the Emperor of the French and other Powers,
that word would go forth to the States as a harbinger of
peace—that the people of the Western States would receive
it with joy, and that many in the North would also hail it
with joy, instead of bringing about war—l say that the con-
sideration of the question is a thousand times of greater
consequence than any contumely or reproach that may be
parsed upon an individual so humble as myself. I do feel
for the Southern people. I feel that they are a nation—that
they are a down-trodden nation—(cheers)—and therefore I
want my hon. and learned friend not to give an answer to
the question put to him by my hon. and gallant friend until
he has had full time to consider the statement of the noble
lord, and the extent to which the Government may be pre-
pared to go towards coinciding in the well-known views of
the Emperor of the French. It will be time enough for my
hon. and learned friend to say on Monday whether he will
go on or not. Another reason for hesitation is that the
Scotia is due, and we may have before Monday important
intelligence that will induce the Government to come forward
and say that the time has arrived to acknowledge the Soutb,
and put an end to this useless war. I think my hon. and
learned friend will exercise both caution and prudence in not
giving a hasty answer to the appeal made to him, but that
he will wait until Monday for the purpose. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAM said no naidele course was open to
them, end that the question ought not to be allowed to hang
over. Mr. Beecher—(laughter)—had told him that the
eyes of North America were fixed upon the conduct of
England—(renewed laughter)—and that nothing had
struck him with more admiration than the course which
the working classes of Lancashire had followed throughout
the contest. The working classes of Lancashire had been
throughout strong supporters of the Federal cause. (Loud
cries of " No, no.") He spoke advisedly. Some 150 meet-
ings had been held in the manufacturing districts, and at
these meetings, with the exception of some ten or twelve,
resolutions were carried in favouc of the North. In con-
clusion, the hon. member declared his firm belief that if the
hon. member for Sheffield went to a division ho would find
himself in a disastrous minori y. (Cries of "No, no.")
Lord PALMERSrON—I desire to make this explana-
tion. I think the hon, member for Sunderland (Mr. Lind-
say) seemed to imagine that I gave some pledge that on
Monday her Majesty's Government would state the course
which they intended to pursue. Now I said no such thing.
Mr. LINDSAY—What I said was that, as the Scotia
would be due before Monday, information might reach the
country which would induce the Government to alter the
views which they seem to hold.
Mr. KINGLARE desired to express his earnest hope
that the house would not too readily accept the principle
laid down by the noble lord at the head of the Govern -
ment. A question so very novel was involved, that it
deserved the most serious attention of the house. The
argument of the noble lord against discussion would have
been very cogent and applicable before the speech of the
hon, member for Sheffield—(hear, hear)—but now that they
had become possessed of the subject, it was evident that
matters were before them pre-eminently calling for obser-
tion. (Hear, hear.).
Mr. B. OSBORNE—I, for one, never doubted the vera•
city of my hon. and learned friend the member for Sheffield.
(Hear.) I have known him too long not to know that he
is incapable of stating what is not the fact ; but, at the
same time, I must be allowed to state that I have not the
same confidence as to his discretion—(hear, bear, and
laughter)—and, if he will allow me to add, I think he is not
acting fairly towards the house in keeping the question
hanging over till Monday. I have the fullest confidence, as
regards American affairs, in her Majesty's Government. I
think they have conducted the American business all
through with singular ability, and that they deserve the
confidence of the house as regards this question. I do en-
treat my hon. and learned friend not to keep the matter
hanging over us, but to state at once, "aye" or "nay,"
whether the question is to be brought before us on Monday
evening. (Hear, hear. )
Mr. GREGOBA asked, was
the hon. and learned mem-
ber for Sheffield satisfied with what had taken place that
evening ? For himself, he must say he had heard nothing
that evening to relieve the hon. and learned member from
the charge of inaccuracy He considered it most impor-
tant that the country should know the real truth of the
question, for enough had come out of these personal
matters to show that the whole ought to be made known.
(Hear, hear.) Indeed, enough had fallen from the hon.
member for Sunderland to show that the country did not
know the real state of the case. With respect, how-
ever, to the great political question involved, he agreed it
was infinitely better that the discussion should not be
continued ; and for this reason he had no doubt there would
be a very large majority against the motion; not because
of any sympathy on the part of the house with the cause of
the North-- (cries of No, no)—for he believed that the hon.
member for Brighton (Mr. Coningham) and all those who
thought with him, could be carried away in a single omni-
bus, (Laughter and cheers.) Still, he wished to prevent
the chance of its going forth to the wcrld that the opinion
of the House of Commons was against the independence of
the Southern Confederacy.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER would put it to the house whether
it was desirable that the question should be allowed to drop
after the discussion of a single evening. The argument of
the noble lord was very efficient about its being brought
forward at ail; but nothing had been stated to chow that
they ought not to come to a conclusion, once the question
was fairly before them •
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the common sense of the ques-
tion before them was this, was every section of that house
to have a diplomacy of its own for carrying on negotiations
with foreign Powers ? Ho thought the Houseof Commons
ought to mark its sense of the
unconstitutional
attempt of
tho hen. member for Sheffield to import a foreign element
into their discussions.
Lord It. CECIL said that if anything could convince
the hon. and learned member for Sheffield of the advisa-
bility of accsding to the appeal made to him, it was the
course of the discussion that evening. Those who urged
the hon. member not to press his motion to a division
were, one and all, friends to the South, including the hon.
baronet the member for Ayrshire (Sir J. Fergusson), and
their well-known Confederate Premier. (Laughter.) On
the other hand the only persons who urged him to go on
were the hon. members for Bradford and Brighton.
ha ningm,)
(No, no, from Mr. Co Well, at all events, he
was urged by the hon. member for Bradford (Mr. Forster),
who was a fanatic on the side of the North, to go to a divi-
sion, in the hope, no doubt, to steal a vote in favour of the
North. He believed, however, that his hon. and learned
friend was too wise to take advice from Federal zealots,
whose anxiety was, not to establish a principle of interna-
tional law, but to render some slight assistance to the
Northern cause in the days of supreme agony, (Hear.)
Considering the important intelligence that was travelling
across the Atlantic, considering the military operations
which had been reported already in the City and in that
house, and considering the effect which that news might
produce, he thought the hon. and learned gentleman would
act wisely in reserving hie decision until Monday.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that amid the multitude of coun-
sellors there was safety ; and he would accept the advice of
the noble lord who had just sat down, and would give his
answer on Monday next. He thought a very much better
answer might be given before that day; but, as the hon.
member for Galway had drawn a distinction between the
personal and the political, he was bound, in justice to him-
self, to say that he would also give an answer to that on
Monday.
Mr. LAYARD said, after what had fallen front the hon.
member for Galway and the hon. member for Sunderland,
he could not remain quite silent. He would, in the first
place, put the hon. member for Galway right upon one
point. The hon. member intimated that he (Mr. Layard)
stated that Baron Gros had not left a copy of the despatch
to which he had referred. Now, he had said nothing of the
kind. What he had stated was that a copy of the despatch
had not been left with her Majesty's Government, because
it was not a confidential despatch, but a public one, having
been previously published in the lloniteur. With respect
to the remarks of tho honourable member for Sunderland,
he would remind the house that the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield had made two allegationss--first) that a
communication had been made to-her Majesty's Govern-
ment, earnestly wishing to ascertain whether they were pre-
pared to unite with the Government of the Emperor in re-
cognising the independence of the Confederate States .
secondly, that a despatchhad been communicated to the Go-
vernment at Washington which had been confidentially
sent by the French Emperor to her Majesty's Government;
and that on that account the Emperor declined making
another proposal to her Majesty's Government. The answer
to that statement, as given by the illoniteur, was most com-
plete, and showed that the Emperor had made no assertion
of the kind. What the Emperor siated was that he should
request—not that he had requested—Baron Gros to sound
her Majesty's Government. With regard to the second
statement, the hon. member for Sunderland had put the
question on an entirely different issue. The statement made
the other night was that, in consequence of a breach of con-
fidence, the Emperor of the French would not make any
further proposals. But if the despatch had been sent in
February of last year which her Majesty's Government were

accused of having communicated, the whole question fell to
the ground, because the proposal was not actuali made until
the month of November. That despatch of which they had
heard for the first time to-night had been communicated in
February or April; if so, how came it that the proposal
should only have been made in November of the same year?
The Illoniteur had clearly pointed out the despatch of Octo-
ber as the despatch which, by some misapprehension on the
part of the hon. and learned gentleman, had been commu-
nicated to the American Government. He had stated the
other night most unreservedly, and' without equivocation,
that no such communication of any despatch whatever to
her Majesty's Government had been made to the Govern-
ment of the United States, either in the early or latter part
of the year. He now distinctly reasserted that. He had
gone through every despatch himself ; the chief clerk in
the department, and another clerk, had done the same ;
so that there had been three minute searches from the be-
ginning of 1862 up to the present time; and he declared
upon his honour that no trace of any such despatch could
be found in the Foreign-•office. (Hear.) There must have
been, therefore, some misapprehension on the part of the
hon. and learned gentleman. [Mr. Roebuck—Not the
least.] (Laughter.) He would remind the hon. member
for Sunderland that he had fallen into a similar mistake
last year ; and it was the more surprising that he had not
taken warning from what had then occurred. In April
last year the hon. member came to this country with a con-
fidential communication ; but he had scarcely arrived when
a telegraphic message was received stating that the hon.
member was not authorised to make that communication.
(Laughter.) What he (Mr. Layard) stated was no secret;
the whole mistake arose from the hon. member having as-
sumed the character of a special envoy.

Mr. AYRTON suggested that, unless they had a dis-
tinct intimation from the hon. and learned member for
Sheffield that he would proceed with the debate on Mon-
day, it would be for the convenience of the house to put
the adjourned debate down as the last order.
Viscount PALMERSTON proposed, in fulfilment of the
pledge given to the hon. and learned gentleman, to put
down the debate as the first order. But if the hon. and
learned gentleman did not proceel with it, the Government
would take the Fortifications Bill, and after that the Relief
Bill.

Mr. TAYLOR protested against the adjournment of the
debate, and against such a violation of international law as
that proposed by the hon. and learned member for Sheffield
in favour of the recognition of a state founded on slavery.
The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn,