The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-20 00:00:00

ever, the House might come upon the subject, he shoulii
cheerfully sulimit.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. LITTLETON gave great credit to the Hon Gent.
for the candour and frankness with which he had ex-
pressed himself. lie had • not determined whether •te
move the reference of the petition to a Select Committee
or to the Oamniqttle of Privileges. At present he would
msrely rtto.., that the petition be printed.
Mr. HARVEY observed, that he had omitted to men-
tion that before be had taken the step which he bad
adopted, he bad taken the advice of a very eminent
P.eader, who was a Member of a Ctinninittee of which lie
was also a Alembeen. That gentleman hail reminded him
of the insulate.: cf Sir James Graham. The Commit'ee
on which they were sitting was a Gas-Light Committee ;
the Hon. Member, when he (Mr. Harvey) asked him if
ho thought there would be any objection to the step which
he contemplated, on the ground that a Member ought not
to have an interest in any Parliamentary proceeding, bade
him look round them, and he would see that there were
several Metabers who had shares to a latge amount in the
undertaking to which the Bill under eon3itheratien related.
For himself, he had never attempted to obtain any undue
influence in Committees of that House ; sad his Parlia-
mentary conduct had been, and would continue to be, as
independent as that of any man in the House. He believen
that even the Hon. Member for Staff irdshire himself had
a considerable interest in a Canal, the Bill respecting which
was in a Committee to which that Hon. Member belenged.
For himself he renewed, that he never had had an interest
of that kihd to the amount of six-and-eightpence.
Mr. LITTLETON said that the Hon. Member was
that he had any interest in the
mistsken, in supposing
Coventry Canal. In other Canal Bills, however, he had
certlinly had an interest.
The petitint was then ordered to be printed.
Sir P. BURDETT presented a petition from the In-
habitants of the Parish' of St. James, praying for the abo-
lition of Select Vestries.—Referred to the consideration of
the Committee on the subject.
COMMUTATION OF SENTENCES.
Mr. STANLEY begged to call the attention -of the
House and the Right Hen. Secretary of State for the home
Department to a petition, which was of no inconsiderable
importance, although it proceeded from a single individual,
and that individual in a very unfortunate situation. As far
as he was aware, the case *as altogether new. The cir-
cumstances were these 1824 the petitioner was con-
victed under what is called Lord Eilenborough's Act, of
stabbing with intention to commit murder. The Judge be-
fore whom he was tried accordingly ordered sentence of
death to be recorded. Afterwards, however, being im-
pressed with the notion that the prisoner, at the time of
committing the offence, was not pane, lie commuted the
punishment to one which, as far as he (Mr. Stanley) was
informed, was altogether new, and in the strictest sense
of the expression, illegal. He had consulted many pro-
fessional men on the subject, and they had uniformly de-
clared that it was not conformable to the practice of the
law, or to the constitution, for the Judge to commute the
sentence of death to a sentence of imprisonment for the
prisoner's natural life, . accompanied with hard labour.
If the case of the prisoner's sanity had been put to the
Jury, and they•had determined that at the time of com-
mitting. the offence he was not sane, the prisoner would
then have been detained in custody until his 31.1jetny'e
pleasure respecting hint was known. But that seas no;
put to tile Jury, and by their verdict of guilty they esta-
blished the prisoner's sanity. The preceeding was exclu-
sively that of the Judge, whose motive no man could In
an instant question—he meant Mr. Justice Bayley; than
whom a more humane man never sat upon the bench.__
(Hear, hear.)—lle should be glad, however, to know if
the Learned Judge was justified in the comae which he
had adopted ? The petitioner bad now been five years in
prison, although frequent a:plications Lad been made to
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite by respectable indi-
viduals, by the Grand Jury, and he believed by the Judge
himself, for a remission of his punishment. It was well
known that the Hon. Gentleman was always ready to at-
tend to applications of that nature ; but the circumstances
in which he was placed with respect to the subject were
so full of difficulty, that it had been though: desirable that
the petitioner should lay his case before the House. The
difficulty was this—the sentence having been once com-
muted, could not again be commuted for transportation ; '
for if the prisoner were to return from tranaportatioe
without leave, he could not be punished for that act. On
the other band, to the liberation of the prisoner, the pro-
secutor would not consent, conceiving that in that case
his own life would not be safe ; and thus his fate mainly
depended on the opinion of one individual, and that indi-
vidual his prosecutor. It was unileubtedly a case of hard-
ship. He should be glad to be informed if there were no
means of affording the petitioner relief, either by a pardon
or by any other mode which would insure hiagoing out
of the country. He was a young man Of not above three
or four-and-thirty ; and his anxiety to avoid passing his
whole life within the walls of a prison was by so means
surprising. He moved for leave to bring up the petition.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he befit red the lion.
Member had correctly' stated all the facts of the case, ea far
as the petitioner was concerned. The petitioner, whose
name, was Wild, was capitally convicted in the year 1824,
under Lord Ellenborough's Act, of stabbing Ina uncle, in
whose employment lie was. He (Mr. Peel) would few-
poaely abstain from detailing the evidence on which the
petitioner had been convicted, in order that he might not
create a prejudice against him. Sentence of death having
been recorded against the prisoner, the Judge before whom
he was tried afterwards entertained some doubt whether he
was sane at the time of the comtnisaion of the offence.—
That Judge, as the Hon. Gentleman had stated, was Mr.
Justice Bayley, whose complete knowledge of the law,
aed whose great hutnanity in the administration of it, every
one must acknewledge.--s(llear, hear )—Under the infle -
ence of the doubt which he had described, Mr. Justice
Bayley determined not to execute the petitioner, but com-
muted the punishment to imprisonment for life witk hard
lalmur. The Hon. Member said that was illegal. He
(Mr. Peel) did not think that its perfect legality could be
questioned: He entertained this conviction because he
had received eight or ten letters an the subject from Mr.
Justice Bayley- himself; and lie was sure that if the
Learned Judge had entertained any doubt of the legality of
his proceeding, he woul•I here conferred with the other
Judges on the subject, and would have communicated the
result of -that cenferenee. Capital sentence having been
passed upon the petitioner, he (Mr. Peel) could not under-
stand why to commute that punishment for imprisonment '
for life was illegal. He had'subtriitted the case to the Law
Officers of the Crown, and they entertained no doubt of the
legality of ti e commutation of the punishment of death for
any punishment of less severity. In treating of the general
doctrine of pardons, it was observed by Blackstone, " A
pardon may also be conditional ; that is, the Kim; may ex-
tend his mercy upon what terms he pleases ; and may annex
to his bounty a condition either precedent or subsequent,
on the perfoemance whereof the validity of the pardon will
depend; and this by the common law." He believed,
therefore, that the sentence was a perfectly legal one. lie
had referred the whole of the facts to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, who wart then the Attorney-General
and his Learned Colleague, and they never had a doubt of
the legality of time proceeding. But they stated, that after a
Judge had commuted a punishment, it was not in the
power of a Secretary of State to snake a further counnu-
tation. The hard labour, however, had been remitted. A
word co general cases of this kind.—No situation could he
more painful than that of a man Acquitted of a crime on the
greund of his insanity ; and the present was a case similar
in its character. If so acquitted, he still became a prisoner
lie regretted to say that many unhappy persons
were in that condition. Now, a man might be acquitted
of murder, or some other capital offence, on the ground of
his being insane at the time, and might be imprisoned in
consequence; but he might afterwards become perfectly sane,
and apply fur his discharge. The Secretary of State had
then a very painful duty to perform; a duty which required
the exercise of much caution. He remembered the case of a
woman tried for arson, and acquitted on the ground of in-
sanity, who was released from confinement by his prede-
cessor in office, on its appearing that she had become
perfectly sane. The first thing, however, that she did atter
her liberation, Ives to return to the Vacs! where she hail
committed the offence for which she bad been tried, and
in the most extraordinary and deliberate manner again set
fire to the same premises. Another, who had been ac-
quitted of murder on the ground of insanity, and after-
wards liberated when it was presumed that be bail become
sane, had been detected ie a contrivance to murder three
persons. A person-in confinement might appear to be re-
stored to sanity ; but when he rewrite.' into the world,
and was exposed to all the irritation resulting from mix-
ing with society, it frequently happened that his insanity
hail returned. In his description of his own case, the pe-
titioner stated that he had formerly been wounded in the
heed, and that when he took a little liquor lie dial nut
:now arhat lie was doing. Some ciutien was necessity
ttetbre such a pets >n WAS again let loose upon society., He
(Mr. Peel) had applied to the prosecutor far his consent
to • the liberation of the prisoner; but tbe answer was,
that he lord a wife and nine children, and that he should
not. consider his life safe if the prisoner were released.
He (Mi-. Peel) wculd most willingly have commuted the
imprisonment for transportation for life, • had such a com-
mutation been legal, but having consulted the Law offi-
cers on the subject, they decided that he had no authority
tn. do so. had, intimated to the prieonerathatadthime h
could nut Epintnlife his siutence, yet that if Le Emits!

For life.

. •
obtain ample seem ity that thevpristmet would immediately
embark for New South Wales, and - would remain, there,
• he would consent to such ararrangement.
Sir C. WETHERELL confirmed the statement made
by the Right Hon. Gentleman. The cage had been re-
ferred to ibim officially when he was Attorney-General,
and he haa given it as his opinion that a sentence of death
might be commuted ffw perpetual :imprisonment; but that
any second cothnintiation would he illegal.
Colonel DAVIES said that this individual had been
wounded in the head, and when in liquor he was in-
4ane; as the persons in New South Wales had an equ..l
value for their lives as the 'maple of Engknd, it was as
absurd to allow the prisoner to go free in one country a.
in the other.

Mr. PEEL said no tran was in any danger from
the prisoner, except an individual against whom l:e en-
tertained some particular feelings of revenge. The [louse,
he trusted, Would pause ht..fore they asked fur papers in a
matter so exclusively belonzing to the prerogatives of the
Crown.

Mr. STANLEY read a part of this paper; and aPer
an explanation from Mr. Peel, it was ordered to lie en the
table.

TREASURER OF THE NAVY.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM gave notice, that on Monday
next he would more, as an Amendment of the Orders
of the Day, a Resolution to consider the manner in which
the office of Treasurer of the Navy had been filly-d up.—
(Hear, hear.)

rcr a great amount of disbursements was connected with
the prOgtesabf- works to which the House had given its
previons,sanetion, and .eonsequently the works must hr
left unfinished, or the country must undergo a great ex-
pence in completing them.—(Laughter.).-:Reductions had
also been made less practicable in this account; for former
years had been relieved by old outstanding balances, which
of course were not applicable to the present account. The
reduction, however, amounted to 276,9001., making on the
whole Estimates of the year for the Army, Nary, Ordnance,
and Miscell sneous Expenses, to amount to 1,091,990/
This. he trusted, would be considered by the House as a
satisfactory indication, on the part of Ministers, to ge
heartily and cordially into the work of reduction to which
they had considered themselves pledged from the moment
of their entering office. ]:tat in estimating the expence of
the ensuing years, it had been found practice!, by the re•
duction of interest upon Exchequer Bills, to make a sav-
ing of 190,0004 in the annual expenditnre. Titus, in
the present year, there would be a to:al saving Of
1,300,0004 His object had been to state facts to the
House ; and he would not trouble the House with any fur.
titer observations. Those persons who had declared that
a reduction of from eight to nine millions might be effected,
would receive with regret the statement he had made;
while others, who, like the Hon. Member for Montrose
(Mr. Hume) thought that ne reduction could be made,
would, no doubt, be agreeably surprised; but lie trusted,
that to the House and to the country it would be satisfac-
tory ; because the reduction had been made without im-
pairing- the efficiency of our establishments, and because
it had been made without display.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
They heal net attempted to make that specious reduction
which would only !aye foundation for actual increase in
some future year, when the pressure of sonic temporary
distress might be experienced. But they, by looking at
the minor expenditure, by lapping off those little excres-
cences which lied sprung frith unobserved, they had ef-
fected that reduction which, he would venture to say, was
calculated to give leref to the people, and afford them an
earnest of the intentions of his Majesty's Ministers to do
their duty as fir as regarded the expenditure of the (man-
try.---( /leer, hear.)
Mr. lIUME said that either lie must have explained
himself very imperfectly, or the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellor of the 'Exch• quer must have strangely misunder-
stood him. He had never maintained the opinions attri-
buted to him by the Right Hon. Gentleman. What he
had sail was, that no adequate reduction could he effected
on those it ms—that nothing could he thus done which
would afford the people relief; nor was lie in the least dis-
posed to retract this assertion. He would not acknow-
ledge he was mistaken. In the first place, he thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman had made an erroneous statement.
He (Mr. Goulburn) said the present Estimates were lower
than any since the year I°o4 ; but he (Mr. Hume) found
that so ter was this from being the ease, than the reduc-
tion was not that of one year, but of a stripe of years.
He hoped, therefore, the House would not suffer itself to
be led array by the erroneous statements of the Right
Hon. Gentleman. Many of his assertions Were errone-
ous; as, for instance, he (Mr. Goulburn) had stated
that the Estimates of this year were 200,0001. less than
the year before ; but by a reference to the balance sheet,
he (\lr. Hume) found that the three great Estimates, to-
gether with the miscellaneous, amounted to 460,000/.
e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
that the balance sheet was merely an account of
the exesnditure during the year past, and never tabled
with the Estimates. In the present instance, there was
a sum of 500,0004, which was paid last year, having
be,-n due the year before. Ministers, he remarked, did
not take credit last year, when the expenditure, as it ell.
peered on the balance sheet, was less than the estimates.
Mr. HUME resumed—He believed it was the practice
of Ministers to take either the balance sheet or the esti-
mates, as it might best suit their convenience.—(Hear,
and a laugh.)—slut no matter; he would now refer to
the expenditure in the years 1822 and 1823. In 1822,
the total expenditure, for army, nary, ordnance, and mis-
cellaneous, amounted to 16,006,000/. By the account
now furnished it appeared that they amounted to
17,665,000/. They accordingly now amounted to shout
1,C00,0004 more than in 1922. But as 1822 might be
objected to, he would now take 1923. The expenditure
in this year amounted to 16,028,287/. ; and taking the
average of both years, 1822 and 1823, it would be
;G, 5,0001. At present the amount gas 17,200,000/.
all, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had conic
down wt's one million, arid, therefore, he bed only reduced
the expenditure to the rate of 1822. He (Mr. H.) was,
therefore, perfectly justified in protesting against the con-
clusion that they were then at the lowest point of expendi-
ture since the year 1604. He would now beg the House
to call to mind his proposition. The [louse would recol-
lect that he had mentioned that a reduction in the expen-
diture on the Army and Ordnance might he made to the
extent of 1,150,000/. ; and here he begged the House to
remark that the grounds he took for this were, that many
of the Army expenses were now placed under the head of
Ordnance expenditure—and he thought very properly—as
for instance, the expeners on barracks were placed under
the Ordnance Estimates. Therefore it was not fair to
take the Estimates of the expenditure on the Military
tablishmenta, without adding that on the Ordnance to it.
If, then, they took the expenditure on the Ordnance to-
gether with that on the Army—the first amounting to
1,569,000/, and the second to 7,700,000/., they would
have a total of 9,278,000/. for the Army, the expence of
both having been, in the year 1794, only 2,500,0001. ;
so that there seas an increase of 7,000,0001. on these two
establishments since the year 1794. Now, he did not make
his proposition, without allowing for the Army and Ord-
nee cc Dead Weight. No; for the first he allowed 2,982,0004
—fur the second, 365,2204 ; and accordingly, for hotli,
3,300,0001., which he was to take from the 9,300,0004 and
they would then have six 'pillions to pay fir the Artny and
Ordnance, exclusive of ell pensions and debts; a sum
from which, he contended, 2,100,0001. might he taken,
without injuring the interests of the country, or impairing;
the efficiency cif these establishments, since they would
then have four millions to expend upon them, which was
amply sufficient. For, in the first place, the Ordnance
ought not to be kept up on its present extensive scale.
He felt himself called upon to ray this, after the challenge
of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The expenditure on the
Ordnance he could declare had been increased three-fold
since the year 1792. - In that year the expenditure on
the corps of engineers, Lippert,' miners, and the artillery,
amounted to 151,000/. In 1822 it was raised to
427,0001., and ill 18.28 it reached 470,000/. Not only
had the number of men • been-increased, but also the steff
:appointments, and that from about two to fifty-eight.
The fact was, his Majesty's Ministers looked at these mat-
ters as if they were about to be called on to take the field
Inc a second Waterloo. But he regarded them with
another eye. He differed with Ministers as to the pro-
priety and expediency of maintaining a great military force,
when he considered our insular situation, and when he
saw such einandaut reason to apprehend that the country
would be at length borne down by the pressure of its war-
like burthen, this million and a half seemed so dispro-
portionete to the benefits it produced, that he could not
expect that Ministers would be able to effect any reduc-
tion beneficial to the country, unless the House compelled
them to cut down the force of the military. This reduc-
tion of one million was not what the country had a right
to expect.—(Heer.)—Besidis, he could not help offering
settle remark on the reason assigned for not cutting down
the Ali:jury and Miscellaneous Estimates ; forsooth, they
had embarked in certain works, which if not continued,
they would be compelled to abandon altogether. There-
fore Site House WAS, called upon to agree to an expendi-
ture of two millions and a half; and be trusted it would
be borne in recollection that when the first vote of
50,0001. was called upon two years ago, fur the for-
tifications in Canada, he - had foretold what would be
the result of this compliance. Next, as to the Mi-
litia; he would ask, why should they only have a
reduction of 60,000/. on its expenditure, which
amounted to 280,000/, ? W hyshould they have only
16,0001. taken front that other item—the volunteer or
yeomanry corps? Why should not the yeonianry be
dispensed with altogether ? Was there .so little pa-,
triotiset in our Aristocracy that they would not area their
retainers, and place themselves at their head in case of
need or large:. And here, in justice, he :mst say, that if
Mr. Canning had bead, and an Hon. Friend of his had
remained ha the Home Office, he (Mr. Hume) firmly be-
lieved that they would not then lie put to 10/. expense for
volunteers er yeomaury. As to the reduction which had
been effected by the present Administration, he considered
it only a postponemeet of expense, because Ministers Must
complete the works in which they had engaged. He would
next speak of the Irish Estimates, and • would be glad to
illion
:I:kJ:hoe:l'F,
aria:
this shat beCa aont,:aueni cfiel :liittaeh(!mirtgelcihformt thusdhat at leaa t reductionoexpender].ooo7.f
ought to hays been taken off this ;ear. For the last: xri
yew; there had been a dreadful waste of the public money
in /relent], and it was lavished with a view of maintain-
ing corruption, and keeping up an undtie influence. )antthis. ought to be brought to an red; they had, afterthe
measures which had been lately pissed, a right to extract
that Ireland sou d be placed upon the same footing as
England and Scotland. - 11, hoped, therefore, that elms
Chancellor of the Exchequer in nut alluding-to any
nation of the item, had only made an omission.—(Heate)
Ife;had next to ask, Ives it net proposed to make ship°
*action in the expendeure on the Coleniess which

drained the country every year to such a frightfid ex-
tent? Itwas really monstrous to observe the salaries of
officers—the manner in which these offices were filled up—
the way in which the revenues were collected, and the
militarytxpenses of each colony. The evil was notorious ;
and yet was it to be passed by in total silence. Again, he
wished to impress upon the House that they could not
persist in maintaining an establishment of eighty-one
thousand infantry; eight thousand artillery, sappers,
joiners, and engineers; and thirty thousand seamen—n[l
aggregate of military force which no country, in however
perfect a state of prosperity, ought to maintain in time of
peace.—(Near, hear.) The evils resulting from this see-
tem were the worst and most Oppressive. The number of
pensioners on the public was, in the first place, perpe-
tually increasing, and therefore the Dead Weight was in-
creasing in proportion. No relief could, therefore, be ob-
tained, until this was altered ; for what was the present.
state of the country? Sixty-five or seventy-fire thousand
tern were rsquired to keep our Colonies ; for, indepen-
dent of the forces maintained there, it was necessary to
have depots and preparatory establishments. In a word,
no great or effectual reduction in the burthens of the
country could be made, until they first reduced the num-
ber of men on the military establishments, nod until they
brought down the Staff to the atone state it was in before
the war. It now cost one hundred thousand pounds. A
reduction had been made ; but what was it. A reduction
of medical officere.—(blear, and a laugh.) Twenty
thousand men ought to be at once reduced, and then he
thought a saving of four millions would come within the
scope of Ministers' power. He hoped the House would
Lave time to read the Right Hoe. Gentlemau's statement•
He thought the 17,00,0004, or the 16,700,000/.,
might be reduced by upwards of six millions, which,
with the surplus revenue, would give a sum of eight mil-
lions to the people—(Year, hear)—if Ministers would
only consent to abandon a system by which they had
placed this country in an erroneous situation with respect
to Europe.
•
Lord ALTHORP said he would not wirlihell his
praise from the reductions as far as they went; they cer-
tainly were greater than he expected, but yet he was
bound to say they were not sufficient when he considered
the distressed stuns of the country.—(Hear, hear.) They
were not sufficient to give any material relief.—(hear.)
As lie was on his !ewe he would tyke the opportunity of
thanking the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr Peel)
for the reforms he had stated it to be in his contempla-
tion on the preceding night. The Right Hon. Gentleman
appeared disposed to strike off more patronage than any
other Administration bad ever before consented to resign.-
--(Hear, hear.) He trusted this was a sign that the
Right Hon. Gentleman intended to carry on the Govern-
ment supported by the attachment of the people; but
he begged to remind him that lie must first ameliorate
the condition of the population, which could not•
be done without effording them relief from the bur-
then of taxation.—( Hear, hear.) He was surprised
that the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Eat:che-
quer had said nothing of the taxes, although he did not
expect that any Administration would ever make a suf-
ficient reduction of its own accord. The House must
compel them. He was well aware of the feeling that
prevailed in the breasts of those presiding over any par-
ticular departments. For instance, lie knew the energy
and activity the Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir 1-1.
Ilardinge) displayed in the mato:gement of the affairs of
the Ordnance. He knew his anxiety to have everything
in the same state of order and efficiency as in time of
tear; and he could understand the pride he (Sir H. Hat-
Binge) felt in his department, and the sentiments which
would urge him to oppose any reduction which would
have the effect of diminishing the force over which he exer-
cised a controul. But the House should not share in those
feelings, nor adopt such reasoning. They should recollect.
that their best way to prepare for war was by filling the
pockets' of the people—( tlear, hear)---lad not hy keep-
ing up our military establishments on the same enormous
scale as at present. In conclusion he would (decree that
it would be their duty to look to the various estimates
in tie Committee, and to reduce them as much es they
could.—(Hear, Lear.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL allowed that the reduction
exceeded his expectetions, and lie pre the Administration
credit for wishing to reduce the expenditure of the
country to the utmost possible limits, consistent with what
they deemed the efficient maintenance of the Civil and
Military Establisienent.—(Hear hear.)—But the amount
of this reduction was in nowise calcuiated to give relief to
the-people in their present (list-reset" condition. He had
in a frank and candid manner borne witeese to the go- d •
intentions of the Adininistration—(llear, I:lo—while '
he at the same time &elated they had not done eitough.
In discussing this question, lie, however, felt himself placed
in a situation of extreme difficulty. lie might look to the
establishments of the country in reference to its character
and situation in the European community. In this view
he must agree with Ministers that there Druid be no
farther reduction. But there was another view of the
case, which referred to the internal circumstances of the
country; and locking thus, lie was bound to ask. if the
country could bear the pres.ure of its present btu-then?
and then lie would be obliged to acknewledee he could not
see the cabability of its supporting itself in the elm/chin
it at that motneet occupied. In looking to the Adminis-
tration, he could say that he believed that there was no
gentleman connected with it who did not ably and zea-
lously discharge the thrice of his office ; and yet when there '
WAS a question if the salaries of public men ought not to
be reduced, he was obliged to give his voice in the affirma-
tive, because he felt that it was imptissible for the country •
to pay for their services at that rate—of which thsy were,
perhaps, well closet ring. The fact was, the Government
had only two csurses open to them; they must either
change the policy tray hail for some time past pursued, or
they should reduce taxation. The Administration was
pi•eeisely placed tinder these circumstance.; within the last
five Gears they had adopted the liberal policy (as it was
called) of the If ;n Member for Montrose, and other Hon.
Members, who generally sat on the second Opposition
Bench; they followed their advice in respect to matters of
commerce and the internal government of the country, but
they had neglected that which the Hon. Gentlemen had
always recommended as a toncomitant of this free trade
system ; they had mule no reduction in taxation—(liear,
hear)-_therefore they had now only one of the two courses
to pursue—they must either abandon this new pulicy,• or
they roust make an efficient reduction iu taxation.—(Bear,
hear.)—For if they hesitate now to adopt the concomitant
measure, and no decline both coursei, the country must
fall between the two propositions e and he (Sir E. Knatch-
bull) knew not how it was to be extricated.—(Heer.)—He
inigot he deceived in there gloomy prospects, and he should
be delighted if it was so ; but he felt that he would not
have discharged his duty, if he had not stated his views
upon the subject. Giving, then, his Majesty's Ministers
credit for the hest inter tiorta, acknowledging that the re-
ductions had exceeded his expectations he would conclude
by declaring lie saw little prospect of their relieving the
country from the desperate state of distress under whichit
then suffered,' unless one of the two courses lie had men-
tioned was promptly taken.—(llear, hear, bear.)
311.. W. HORTON said, that when the lion. 3/ember for
Aberdeen, knowing, as he must know, that every parish
in England was surcharged with paupers, proposed, by
wey of relief, to reduce the army by twenty thousand men,
and thus increase by twenty thousand the present formie
&dile anemia of paupers, lie must take the liberty of say-
ing that lie thought the Hon. Member's proposition not a
little extraordinary. Supposing the proposition of die,
HOU. MClllber were carried into effect, it muet still fall
as a measure of relief to that class to whose dietresses it
should be the object of the House to apply some remedy—
he meant the labouring claim Did he (Mr. W. Horton)
then mean to say that there ought to be no reduction hf
the military force? By no means. Wherever reduction
could be fairly effected, he would support it ; hut, in each
reductions, the House was bound to consider the interest
of the tax-payer; and, as a measure of relief, they were
also bound to see how far it would affect the interest of
the lower classes. The Hon. Barouet who last Addressed
the House had stated, that if the present system were per- -
severed in, the people would not be able to pay their taxes.
The lion. Baronet no doubt alluded to the change made
in the currency; but if he had not put aside all the infor-
mation which had reached him.on that subject, he ought
to he aware that the advantage which laid been gained
by one class by that change, or the benefit that wodd be
derived to another by a return betel:lto the former state of the
currency, would be only a transfer of advantage from ens
interest to the other, but would in no way affect the re-
lief of tact (lass roost in need of assistance—the great body
of the poor. He would contend that the disbanding of
20,000 'of our army, and throwing them back upon a po-
',lllation, so many of whom were at the lowest rate of
stages, and so many others out of employment altogether,
would only increase the evil. lie did not say, as an ab-
stract proposition, that a large standing army was not a
grievrus encumbrance, and that the expenditure (Ire
country ought not to be 'Telieved as much as possible f oni
'every burden whidi coo( be removed; but he must seen-
tend that, as a measure of relief for the disfrees oft-the
most suffering class, such a reduction would be ineffectital.
If 20,000 men were to be sent out of the country, /sit
never again to become a burden to it, no doubt it would
be so far a relief, but that case did not apply to a disbaind-
ing of so many of the army, whose dismissal would be
only adding to the distress of _. the lower classes- •If ;the
Hun. Member, without offering it as a remedy for the (tie-

'rota of the country, prepesed a apecisereei'tctiooor
numerical force of the artily, lie ehould be divot: 0
consider it on it ovn merits; but when it was 114.
to the country to be necessary as a m',tsure of tele'
owned that if be stood alone he wottl-1 hold up his
against it
Mr. A. BARING said the reduction-s-proposed
Right Hon. Gent.- must,
House, as f. r es' they went, and the snore ao, as
no doubt, he acceptable Of:
should lie t skin as en earnest of the dispoeitionolAiid:
to do all in :heir power—hut an ineaenree relief
any of the presseire coca:ion, it twist n.st he derii'dref:
they were insufficient. The Hem Baronet, the ides
for the county id Kent, lead stated that there tent'd
effectual relief for the country until the general eytttl
which Ministers acted was changed, hut the Hon: e',l
net ought to have specified some general proposition s;e'
the course which he would wish to see adopted. ,
question before them arras a proemel of the Cheneellar4
the Exchequer relating to certain redeciions of exl"ntl
which were about to be effected. To ha litre, the I,
lion. Gentleman had given them only the pleesing '141,41
the picture. lie had not tel.' them that which he a',„
have to tell them on some future eveninee that this rel;
tine would do little more then corer the delirieney
venue with the year. Ile did not attribute this dedel!,,e
to Ministers, for he was aware that when eliorp., esoir
in the country, it must must show itself in the ewe of
revenue. Nobody now douhiel the existence of that"
tress, but he found that the reduction of 1,300,0001'
1.400 0001. would have no effect in relieving ib
would do no snore than carer what the Right Hon. Gad
would have to tell them on a future erenine woad.' lee
amount of the felling off in the revenue, AS eempared
lest year.—(Year, hear.)--He therefore could not i 0
ferward with any reasonable hope of an amelioration ei
condition of the country from a redaction of taxtti,
In the speech of his lion. Friend, the Member for A!'
d..en, on a firmer evening, which he had not an oppori
nity of hearing, but which he, understood was---et
speeches. generally were—one of great ability, dear
one point--and it was an important one—on whiell
widely differed from him. The Hon. Member had titse
tl.at ho would apply any surplus revemse to reductiel(
taxation. In such a proposition he (Mr. Baring) do
by nit means concur. What, he would ask, would be
situation of the country, or how could they rely on 4
permanency of revenue, if from time to time they avert'
sweep away any surplus that e: i.e? If there 1°
a certainty of e fixed revenue, the case/ might he differd,
but in one which necessarily fluctuated from year to jr',
nothing, in his *pinion, would be less politic than to ofc
any surplus now and then accruing, He we, aware •
the objections which many persons had to a sinking fir°lo
but the objection arose from the abuse of it, front
system to which it give rise, of paying with one h
and borrowing with the other. That, however, was
-4
a valid objection to the keeping np ofa bona fide shill,
fund; and if Ministers consented to its abolitious
what was the same thing, to the applicetien in the lust
nor proposed by his Hon. Friend of any reasonable
plus revenue, the effect would lie to sink public credit.,
He owned that he should like to see that the sorer,
revenue of the country should be applied to effeel
reduction of the rum-rims public debt that now dc
pressed the country; for he must say, that the I'l
prospect of future prosperity which could present it
sunset arise f out our inability to lighters the publicitdr)
throe by a gradual reduction of that enormous weight'
On the sulject of relief from taxation very strong oe;"411
ii
existed in the country, and many, persona Were perstie'
that this and the other tax would be taken off. •?feW I
this Atilj.fet it was extremely desirable that no rnisapPla
heesion should be allowed to continue. (In the sub
of the Malt Tax in particular it was of mucb-importea"
that the determination of Government and :the opinion,
the House should be declared with as littleideley as postiti
Ile knew that an expectation existed in many quarters
the tax would Le, in the whole or in pert, eepealed, a°
many farmers found their sales stagn..nt is eonsequent,
The sooner, therefore, that the subject was brought id
ward for discussion and the decision of the House o'
better. As to the reductions proposed by-the Right 11,1/
Gentleman,- he fiet thankful tor' thew, ,for he owned
were more than he had expected. •It was c4er that
vernrnent must have been tee iously and honestly engagea. #
tj
a review of our whole expenditure, and when he cotter,
three with the satatement by the Right-Hom Gentlent;
(Mr. Peel) yesterday, involving, as it did, such extent',
sacrifice of patronage as I.e had never known made by 01,
Ministry before, he felt aatiefues that they were in cacti
in time work of retrenchment.—(flear, hear.)—The HO:
Me:Ill-ter for Aberdeen had contended for the necessity 01
large reduction of our military force, but he (Mr. -Baring'
did no; see what reduction could, be made ,in that fort°'
without a diminution of the.eflieient servile of the counts}''
fe'ering that the whole amount front which any reductid°-.
could :re made did not exceed- 12,000,0001. he did Il°,
know what they could reduce so as to make reduCtion °
matter of relief to the country. The Hon. 'Member Id!,
Aberdeen h-d inerviened a reduction iu one colonial fore,
but the Howe hall heard it stated that the force kept aQ
for that service wee; not more than was required fur the di6'
ties they had to perform. It might,-however, be ads
witted as an important questions to consider how far all
colon7es we now possessed might to -be kept up: e"°'
fessed be should he glad-to hear what • use some of our ece
Janice were, that we should continue to isold. _them at
considerable expense; For instance, he could not see o{'
what importance the loniaa lalan Is were to us, that
should keep a large military force there, which neceeW
tated the keeping up of a corresponding force at home,
(Heir, hear.)—lteving Gibraltar, which seemed to bej
made for as at one end of the Mediterranean, sit
Malta at the other, he did not see why we plumbd gy
to any expellee in keeping pwsession of the lonia°
lelee, particularly as our ecceptance of them was (61
we were told at tl-e time) rather a reluctant one, or
chiefly fec the purpose of feeling a disputed point hewed
Ruesia, and Austria, neither of which pothers-would eon'
s'nt to the possession of those ielends by the other. Pa/
when they seemed to have been li.reed upon C. by the 10'
rangements at the Congress of Vienna, he had not inn".
gined that they elsould remain es a perenenent bniden
this country. All the resod that he was Aware. we !aerie •
f ern them was to get a-stir:aura fOr our rmince Pies, and
those they would he willing enough toriend,us without out
pine. to such experwe in keeping them in our poesessioP
These were matters which he thought 'deterring of cooly, '
eeratien, as the giving tip. of cOloniee, r
potosion "
which were of no political or cainimercial importance t°,,
pa°tuanaisir:yrY! WouldeniC:r.XpnMi expenditure,
leaddjfd ptai it:uel
ler roi
oi‘ r
las 76sni nft e,ml that
rt Pi) oof
-it
services.
i :11
Ittn;°. nT
ite
oeeiimoeinsiusei..d:'laimniriri.oeb:o:itugnsrrutix-etinc:hpi
tiotildr;
nearly s'x millions, and undoubtedly it ire an immense
.11m .00 a country raising sixiy millions a year in tam
and customs--a revenue such as had no parallel in the
history of tee World. This extent of the amount of half';
pay and pt neion wet a proof how murk the great credit
the ccuntly had been abused.. He would admit that it
was difficult to withstand the granting of pensions, in moot
of the c :sea in which they were given ; hut hr thought
that' welled carried our generosity too far in this 'respect,
A medium course would have beet: the wisest, instead of 60
loose, extravagant system which hid led to great abuse'
A suggestion had been threwn Out, 'that sernething like
the syatesn adopted its the civil departmen!i_ottlaa, pnblid
service, of making the 'clef km contrihute.to ,the :fated for
their future superannuation alloWanee, should. ale Ore fel'
lowed in tie army.
. . . .
Mr. Alderman WAlTHMANexpee*sed hie, eone'sarsened
in the reduction proposed by hie lion. Friend,,theeMene
her for Aberdeen. lie agreed Witletheßight Hone. Gents
opposite, Chet the reductions which it erniglet, be,in the
power of Government to make would not give that relief
which the country required, -yet there could_ be-no relit
unless they began by reduction. The country was now in s
situation to call for the pottiest exertion, of 'Govarnmed' -
with a view to their relief.
A Memer.a, whose Mime we did not`learn, rxpretiorl
his ereat satisfaction at the reductiOne_ propnacdelsy
nitteetts end hoped that these the Heald now heard of
wieild be soon followed by others. There never was *
time when eComeny Was tifore needfUle is it was adinittri
upon all hare's that the people were reduced to &agate
pth,lersoontcaltk t rlia,dbgi privation and :cntdabdleietarre:is;ans
rsrd tr 00
ades'
men were reduced to the eecessity
eisteuce en wages oefour or ve shillings weekly.
Mr. MABERLY expreesed his surprise and "'egret that
the Chancellor Exchequer should hare preserved so re'.
of
su:ppToort.ihzigis
mark-aide a silence on the suliject of taxation _throughout
his ',ch. The statements of the Hon. Member, far. Cal"
lingeen (Mr. Baring). had also.appearel tie him rather sin'
gular, and not strictly consistent his former conduct,
when, year after year,-during the teilacy of s sinking funds ,
supeorted hysiirplus revenue, le so staunchly adrecated its
policy. For his own part, he ineinteined that the best sup-
port of public credit wotild be extablithed hy.theicappleing
all that they could - spare to the relief of •the people.--•
(hirer.) lie was reedy to melee the diminution -of tine
debt a suborTnate .eonadrration in ouch an 4x4enee
as the present, and would give largely_ ao re' 1
ibirLitm ut Oar taxes. There its no v a greet „,unani-
miry art iy aniohgst members on the other „ sille„of
the
Hause, on the St,bject of a reduction of experulitorer
which all at 'length 'concurred in thiiikin*i, heti hee,oote
esbatolutely nemiary. It PM much to he regretted that