The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-19 00:00:00

protection of the public interest, the evidence taken by any
Select Committee of this House, and the documents presented
to such Committee, and which have not been reported to the
House, ought not to be published by any Member of such
Committee, or by any other person." Here is your resolu-
tion, which says that a certain thing ought not to be done;
and here is an Honourable Member of the House who de-
clares, and who claims it as a right and privilege to do that
thing.—( Hear.) I have to ask that this may be decided be-
tween the House and the assumed privilege of a Member.—
( Hear.) Let the House step Hear.) I have no favour
to solicit. lam told indeed of the majority on the other side
of the House. I care not. I say here is a gentleman avow-
ing his intention to violate tire rules of the House.—( Cries of
" No, no !" and hear.) The Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman is claiming, as a right and privilege, that which the
House has decided to be a breach of privilege. If I am guilty
in giving a preference to the Orders of the House over the
claim of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman,
I e the House so decide.—(Hear, hear.) If • the House
prefer his letter to my letter—his oliniotts to mine—be it
so. It is not a question between him and me. De not let the
house think it is. It is a question between. their own resolu-
tion and a single Member of Parliament, who rising in his
place says, I claim that which, as a privilege, you (the House)
say is not a privilege. But I wish again to tell the House,
that if the Hon. Gentleman will at the present moment get
up and say that he will abide by the Orders of the House, I
have no kind of objection, on the contrary. I am bound to
move myself the insertion of his name.—( Hear, hear.) If
he refuse, why, although I know of no such question having
arisen before, yet I think the House of Commons will not
consent to place a Member on a Committee who refuses to
declare his determination to abide by the resolutions of the
House.—( Hear, hear ) Where, I ask, will this end, if the
practice once begins ? It will not be limited to Committees,
but will run through the whole of your proceedings—( Hear,
hear.) Does the Hon. Member foe Bridport mean to make
aste paper of ail the Orders of this House? He may enter-
tain some high and fanciful notions as to introducing new re-
gulations for our proceedings, but that one singlet Member is
to set aside all the most solemn and recorded decisions of the
[louse of Commons can hardly be within even that Hon.
Gentleman's contemplation.—(Hear, bean ) The Right Hon.
Gentleman repeated his readiness to name Mr. Harvey, if he
would pledge himself to abide by the decision of the House,
but if the House without such a pledge, should have placed the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman on the Committee, the
responsibility would rest with them and not with him (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer), whatsoe rer might be the con-
sequences. I have argued this question (said the Right Hon.
Geetlernatt) on general principles. If it were a Committee
upon the combination laws, or upon the state of the factories,
or of the London Docks, the principles I have laid down are
right, and those which it behoves the House to act upon ; be-
cause it behoves them to enforce their own regulations. But I
beg to say one word with respect to the peculiarity of this inquiry.
I will not be induced by any taunts of the Hon. Gentleman op-
pes:te with respect to the course Lhave now taken, as com-
pared with the course I have previously taken, to go one
point beyond the single subject matter now under discussion. -
But every Gentleman, whether he argue in favour of inquiry
or against inquiry, must be aware—and I cannot appeal to
au authority whose words were more strong or more powerful
on this point than those of the Hon.. and Learned Gentleman
himself—that this inquiry is of a peculiar character; that it
may involve private character, private fortune, service ren-
dered, and all manner of diselosurcs—disclosures, however,
that I hold to be necessary under the exigency of the present
case.—( Hear, hear! ar.d laughter from the Opposition
Benches. I give the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the
Member for Oxford (Mr. Maclean) full credit for that cheer.
I ask him, are there not circumstances that may be inqui-ed
into of the character which I have described ? Then what be-
comes of his cheer ? It does not tell against my argument.
On the contrary it supports my argument. Then, I put it,
if the proceedings of this Committee, before they report, arc
made known through the daily journals, if a charge is broughs
against an individual of having received a pension unjustly, and
under circumstances which would not justify its continuance,
if such evidence as this were made known to the world on
Monday, and were to remain without contradiction until Sa-
turday, are you prepared—above all, are you who oppose all
inquiry prepared to inflict upon that individual this additional
pain of publicity, to the pain which un uncontradicted rumour,
an unfounded charge, perhaps, may have already brought
upon him : I say that it is not just. If such a publics
tion were right with respect to every other description of in-
quiry, it would not be right with respect to one of this pe-
culiar character. It is on these grounds—first looking,
generally to the law and regulations of Parliament, and
next looking at the particular case which is before me—that
without obtaining the pledge of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, I do not feel warranted in putting his name upon the
Committee. Let hint give that pledge now—(" No, no")--
and I shall be ready to vote for him.—('• No, no.") Or let
him say he will not give that pledge, and then vote for him if
ou will ; I cannot.—(Hear, hear.) This is the alternative.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says himself, in his answer
to my letter, that " circumstances may arise which would
render such a publication inexpedient and unjust to individuals,
but he reserves to himself the full power of exercising his own
judgment in all cases." Now, Ido not wish to leave to the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the power to comment upon the
Orders of the House of Commons. All I ask is that he
will engage to adhere to them. I shall now take the
liberty to read the names which, of course, do not include the
name of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. They are Lord
John Russell, Mr. Grote (who voted for a previous in-
quiry), Mr. Bannerman (who ♦oted for a previous inquiry),
Mr. Plumptre (who voted for a previous inquiry), Mr.
Hume (who voted for a previous inquiry), Mr. Sanford, Mr.
Hawes (who voted for a previous inquiry), Mr. William
Evans (who was not then in Parliament), Mr. Pen-
darves (who voted for a previous inquiry), Sir Eardley
Wilmot, Mr. Handley (who voted for a previous inquiry),
Lord Ebrington, Mr. Rickford (who voted for a previous in-
quiry), Mr. Strutt, Mr. M'Leod, Mr. Goddard, Mr. Phill-
i..otts, Mr. George Evens, Mr. Villiers Steuart (all of whom
voted for a previous inquiry), and, if the House choose to no-
minate me, myself.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The majority of
the gentlemen, therefore, whom he had named had, on former
occasions, voted for inquiry and against the then Government,
and it could not he said that he had not fairly adopted a mate-
rial part of one of the suggestions which had been made.
( Hear, bear.)
Mr. HUME, before the proposed names were read from
the chair, wished to remark that as the full number of twenty-
one was proposed, the House could not, consistently with its
Standing Order, and the name of the Hon. Member for South-
wark without proceeding to the invidious task of rejecting one
of the names mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that it was open to any Hon. Member to move that the Com-
mittee should be increased Leyond the usual number.

Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR could not being himself to '
the belief that great injustice would not be committed if the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Southwark
were omitted. He had given notice of the specific motion
on this subject from the opinion which he entertained that the
knowledge of this question possessed by the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman was very valuable, that his talent was great, and
his sincerity most unquestionable. He ( Sir George Sin-
clair) thought that in the correspondence which had been read
the Hon. and Learned Member was perfectly right ; he con-
ceived that the proper course to be pursued would be to ap-
point the Hon. Member; and if he should publish any of the
evidence, and should thereby infringe the just privileges of
the House, that the infringement should be brought distinctly
before the House.—( Hear, hear.) Let it be stated by the
Chairman of the Committee to that House that there had
been an infraction of the law of Parliament by publishing
the evidence, and he (Sir G. Sinclair) would he the first to
rote that the offence should be severely visited.—(Hear.)
But he did think it a very hard case that a condition or a sti-
pulation should be required of the Hon. Member which was
not exacted of any other gentleman, and that the Hon. Gen-
tleman owed it to himself, to his own character, and to the
situation which he filled as a Member of Parliament, not to
accept an appointment upon the Committee under the pro-
posed condition.—(ll,ar.) Ho bad no objection to make to
the names of the Hon. Gentlemen who were proposed to form
part of the Committee. He thought that they were fairly
chosen ; but he felt bound to observe that, if the name of the
Hon. and Learned Member were omitted, the public at large,
who took a deep interest in the question, would never be satis-
fied.—( Hear.) He should, therefore, move that the Com-
mittec should consist of twenty-two Members, and that the
name of the Hon. and Learned Member for Southwark should .
be added.—( Hear. )
Mr. E. L. Bueweri and Mr. AIACLUAN rose together, but
the former having given way,-
Mr. MACLEAN thought that it was important to come
to a decision upon the present question, in wide!) the dignity
and character of that House were deeply involved. The
Noble Lord who had spoken in the early part of the evening
upon this question had stated that his reason for object-
ing to the insertion of the Hon. and Learned Member's
name was that on a former occasion he had transgressed
the orders of the House : but if the Honourable Member
had committed such a violation, why was he not brought to
the bar of the House, or charged with the infringement in
his place in Parliament ? The reason assigned was, that the
Noble Lord had known many persons become almost political
martyrs by opposing the privileges of Parliament ; and that it
was not, therefore, prudent to bring the matter forward. If
this were a good reason, of what use was the order of the
House ? If it might be put at defiance with impunity, why
did the House not repeal it ?—( Hear, hear.) If the Hon.
and Learned Member should infringe any privilege of that
House, the House was perfectly able to protect itself. The
course taken by the Government was not consistent with the
usage hitherto pursued. If he (Mr. Maclean) rightly under-
stood the argument of the Hon and Learned Member, it was
this : " I will not enter into an agreement to preserre intact
the privileges of the House, and which I contend may not
prove to be privileges; if I violate any privilege of the House,
you may proceed against me as you may against any other in-
dividual.—( Hear, hear.) If, in defying your orders, I corn-
mit any offence, you have the remedy in your own hands ;
you may bring me to the bar, or you may tax me in my place,
and you may then take the opinion of the House whether yen"
order be loon led in justice oc not." Another argument used
against the appointment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was, that during the investigation, a great deal of delicate
evidence must beenade, and ii day by day the inquiries were
publishes( to the world, and the facts were left uncontradieted,
much injustice would be committed. But, even if this were
50, on the first occasion that a breach was committed, the
Chairman of the Committee would come down to the House
with redoubled force to -carrithe resolution into effect —.( Hear,
hear)—because the publication would have taken place in
direct defiance of their autliority.—(Hear, hear.) If ehe Hon.
and Learned Member's name were not inserted, the inquiry