The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-27 00:00:00

SUPPLY.-NAVY ESTIMATES.

The house then went into committee of supply.
Upon the vote of £i65,322 for expenses of the Admiralty
Office,

Mr. LINDSAY gave a general outline of the very mul-
tifarious duties which the Board of Admiralty have to
perform, and said he much doubted whether, in the event
of another great war, that board, as at present consti-
tuted, would be found sufficient for the requirements of
the public service• It was at present a small and
almost irresponsible body, consisting merely of a first lord,
five other lords, and a couple of secretaries, who had to be
shipbuilders, dockyard-makers, builders, bakers, butchers,
carriers, and many other things. He would propose, in-
stead, to have one chief of the department, who should be
called the Minister of Marine, or any other name that
might be preferred, and should be a Secretary of State.
There should be under him a committee of six, appointed
by himself, subject to such control as Parliament might
impose. The first man of that committee should be the
controller of the navy, who should have charge of every-
thing pertaining to the construction of ships, and to analyse,
investigate, and report upon all new improvements and in-
ventions. There should then be a storekeeper-general, then
an officer to superintend the mending of the ships, then an
engineer of works to superintend the building of docks and
wharves, next an accountant-general, and lastly one who
should do everything necessary that was not included in
, the duties of the other five. The hon. gentleman said it
was not his intention to make any motion.
Admiral WALCOTT said the Board of Admiralty,
which was charged with the moat responsible duties apper-
taining to the navy, was displaced with every change of
Government, a practice which he entirely disapproved. It
was most important for the efficiency of the navy that there
should be practical officers, and the only way of ensuring
that objedt was by making the officers feel that rewards"
would follow merit, and that the same favour would be
shown to all who exhibited diligence, talent, honourable
ambition, and gallantry in the service of their country.
(Hear, hear,)
Mr. W. 'WILLIAMS called the attention of the noble
lord to some items for temporary clerks, and suggested
that they should be taken on permanently when required.
The hon. member pointed out some matters which were
put in the appendix, and expressed his opinion that it
would be more regular to have them in the body of the votes.
Mr. WHITE asked the noble lord the Secretary to the
Admiralty by what authority the gunboats of her Majesty
had been handed over for the service of the Emperor of
China; and also by whose authority stores and supplies of
ammunition had been suppliel to that expedition. When
the house was called upon to vote large sums the Govern-
ment should state whether they proposed to apply a portion
of them to an external or foreign object, so that the whole
question should come before the committee.
Viscount PALMERSTON said the arrangement alluded
to
by the hon. member had been sanctioned by her Majesty's
Government, as they thought it desirable that these gun-
boats should be used for the protection of British subjects
and British commerce. The whole expense of the boats and
stores would be defrayed by the Chinese Government, and
no part would fall upon this country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK concurred with the hon. member for
Sunderland (Mr. Lindsay) as to the irresponsibility of the
Board of Admiralty, but he could not agree with him that a
civilian was the proper man to place at its head. In his opi.

nion, the only way to improve the Board of Admiralty was
by placing a naval man at ite head, and that he should not
be moveable with a change of Government,
Sir M. PETO said he had ventured last session to im-
press upon the Government the importance of attending to
the question introduced that evening by the hon. member be-
low him, but it had produced no effect during the recess.
During the last 30 years, from 1829 to 1859, there had been
17 First Lords of the Admiralty, the duration of whose se-
parate terms of office had been one year 10 months and a
fortnight. There had been 103 other changes during that
period. In the last years there had been four general
changes, and there had been during that time five First
Lords and thirty-four other lords, How was it therefore
possible that the business of the country could be so con-
ducted as to result in success ? The term of office was so
short that the Board of Admiralty was only in office just
sufficient time to become acquainted with their position and
duties, but nothing of the actual working of the department.
Lord C. PAGET said that the difference of opinion that
had been expressed showed the difficulty of the subject. A
permanent Admiralty, he believed, would destroy the neces•
sary control that now existed, and its absence would lead to
extravagance and expenditure. If they got rid of the term
" board," many of the complaints now made against it would
vanish. It was not in reality a board, but a responsible
Minister, with a council to advise and assist him. The de-
partment, like every thing else, had its defects; but the more
he saw and considered the vast and complicated duties it
had to discharge, the more he thought it worked as well as
could be expected. He instanced several minute points of
detail in the working of the board. The business had greatly
increased of late, and he had been obliged to separate the
transport from the victualling department, and appoint an
additional clerk. He explained the various objections that
had been taken to some of the items in the ♦ote.
Mr. LINDSAY said that with regard to the transfer re-
ferred to by the noble lord, there had been a considerable
increase of expenditure, with po more work to be done. So
far from there being a saving of £5,000 on this vote, there
was an increase of £1,765.
Sir M. PETO considered this a good time for the Go-
vernment to consider the organisation of the Admiralty:
We were in a placid state with regard to public affairs, and
theits wars uovr ao littlo brought forward by tho Govern-
ment, that he considered they might very well take the
subject into their consideration with a view to its improve-
ment.

Mr. BENTINCK again pressed his views on the com-
mittee in favour of a permanent board. He did not think
it would destroy the control of the house. He doubted if
they would ever arrive at a solution of the question. The
system was attacked from the belief that it was to the fault
of its operation, and not the bad intentions of the heads of
the department, that the country did not get what it ought
to for its money.

Mr. WHITE said this subject had been repeatedly
brought before the house, but as yet with no satisfactory
result.

The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, of £299,695 to defray the expenses of
the cosst guard,
Mr. LIDDELL impressed upon the Government the ne.
cessity of maintaining the active force of the navy in full,
notwithstanding the strength of the reserve force. Although
great efforts were made to transform the reserves into good
seamen, still no captain would be satisfied to go to sea with
a crew composed of men drafted from the reserves. The
noble lord told them the other night that nearly 17,000 men
had been enrolled in the reserves. Now that did not agree
with the official returns, and he hoped the noble lord would
explain the discrepancy.
Lord C. PAGET explained that all he meant to convey
the other night was, that from the adoption of the plan
up to the present the number enrolled had been 17,000;
but, of course, that number had been diminished by deaths
and desertions, though not much by desertions. At the
present moment the number was 14,500; but during the
course of the year they expected the force would be raised
to 18,000.
Mr. BENTINCK was informed that there was a certain
number of owners of large merchant vessels who had ex-
pressed themselves anxious, in cases where their officers
and crews belonged almost exclusively to the naval reserve,
to be allowed to carry a blue ensign. He wished to know
whether there would be any objection to such vessels being
so distinguished.

Mr. LINDSAY asked who now filled the office of Capt.
Brow n, the late Registrar- General of Seamen, and whether
any increase of remuneration had been given to the ship-
ping masters for their great attention to the extra duties
required of them in connection with the naval reserve.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that Mr. Mayo had succeeded to
the position lately occupied by Capt. Brown, whose retire-
ment arose from failing health and advancing years. Both
the Admiralty and the Board of Trade had acknowledged
the meritorious way in which he had discharged those du-
ties. He believed that the shipping masters in some cases,
had an addition to their remuneration.

Lord C. PAGET said he would refer to the Admiralty
the proposition that ships commanded by officers of the
Royal Naval Reserve, and manned to a great extent by
resprwa be allowed to hoist the blue
ensign, and he was sure that anything wnicn oouta be
done with propriety to encourage the officers and ship-
owners who had taken so much pains to create and main-
tain this reserve, the Board of Admiralty would agree to.
(Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
On a vote of £71,961 being proposed for the salaries and
expenses of the scientific department of the Admiralty,
Mr. CHILDERS asked whether it was the intention to
publish the charts, remarks, and journals of Capt.Denham,
who had for 10 years past been engaged in most valuable
services in the South Seas?

Lord C. PAGET said that Capt. Denham had done good
service to his country by the charts and maps he had made,
particularly with regard to the very intricate navigation of
Torres Straits, which he had rendered not more than ordi-
narily difficult. He was not prepared to say that they
would publish Capt. Denham's journals, but they were pub-
lishing his charts and remarks.

Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped to hear that in some
marked manner Capt. Denham had received the approba-
tion of the Board of Admiralty.
Lord C. PAGET said that the suggestion should receive
attention.
The vote was then agreed to.

On a vote of £183,316, to defray the ealaries and contin-
gent expenses of her Majesty's naval establishment at home,

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked whether the Admiralty
had taken into consideration the question of reducing the
establishments of our vast dockyards, which were meant for
the production of wooden ships.

Lord C. PAGET said that the observation of the hon.
baronet applied rather to votes 8 or 9 than to the pre-
sent ; but he must not suppose that, because they were
building fifteen or twenty iron-cased ships, the great
mass of our wooden fleet was to be done away with. Cor-
vettes, sloops, and gunboats would still be built of wood in
the dockyards for a long time to come. The noble lord ex-
plained that there was an increase on the vote of £4,000 for
the purpose of organising the whole number of dockyard
clerks into one single establishment, so as to admit of their
being removed from one yard to another, at home, or being
sent abroad, without interfering with the promotion of the
particular dockyard in which they had been serving. In
answer to a question from Mr. Dalglish, the noble lord said
that audit clerks had been appointed at each of the dock-
' yards, to check the accounts, responsible only to the Ac-
countant-General.

Mr, LAIRD could not understand how the Government
could keep their accounts, If it were true, as he had heard,
that there was no stock-taking of the stores.
Mr. CHILDERS complained of the withdrawal of the
grant to Wesleyan chaplains.

Mr.SCHOLEFIELD said the proceedings of the Alabama
tended to shake his faith in the supposed vast superiority
of iron over wooden vessels.

Mr. LINDSAY said the speed of a ship did not depend
upon the material of which she was built, but upon her lines.
The vote was agreed to.
A vote of £36,370 for naval establishments abroad was
also agreed to.

Upon the vote of £1,112,878 for wages to artificers, dc.,
at home,

Mr. W. MARTIN hoped, now that Government influ-
ence was to be done away with, the Order in Council would
be confirmed by Act of Parliament.

Mr. DALGLISH could not understand how £1,100,000
could be spent in labour only upon the six ships they had
heard about. Taking half the amount only for them alone,
it came to £lOO,OOO a ship. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET said they had been doing many repairs
that ought to have been done years ago. If the hon. gen-
man would only wait another year—(oh, and laughter)—
he would understand it thoroughly.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY would impress upon the noble
lord, the Secretary to the Admiralty the importance of laying
before the committee an accurate account of the outgoings.
Lord C. PAGET would admit that in one particular
there was an omission, and this was that they did not take
stock every year. The matter had been under their con-
sideration, and it was only given up because of the great cost
which it would entail. The committee should remember
that if they were to take stock at all they should do it
thoroughly, and bring into account everything in the dock-
yards, however minute ; and ho submitted that such stock-
taking would be an expensive process.
Sir M. PETO thought the noble lord could not give the
committee a better idea of the defective system of the Ad-
miralty than the statement he had just made. It was the
practice of the firm with which he was connected, and whose
transactions were more extensive than those of the Admi-
ralty, and spread over different countries, to take stock
every year. The process no doubt entailed trouble and ex-
pense, but they considered it necessary, for how else could
they strike a balance?
Sir G. BOWYER could not understand why stock-taking
could not be performed by the officers of the dockyards,
without entailing any expense upon the public.
Mr. SEELEY said they should not rim away with the
notion that stock-taking cauld be performed without entail-
ing considerable expense ; but it was for the house to say
whether such expense was to be incurred. The noble lord
had spoken of double entry, but all he could say was that
he had examined the accounts in the course of the recess,
and that they were net kept by double entry. They were