The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

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ING, AT

The Duke of RICHMOND—The object he had in view
Was that a Select Committee should be appointed to exa-
Mine into the state of the country, and the causes of the
Present distress, and to consider what were the proper re-
medies. There was something unexampled in the present
calamitous condition in which the perhaps somewhat over-
grown population of this country was at present employed;
and unless means should be adopted to ascertain with as
much precision as possible the causes Which have led to
this deplorable result, with a view to the application of
the proper remedies, there was reason to fear that the
esnsequence would be the dissolution of society—a cala-
mity which was now threatening. That the working
classes of the country had fallen into a state of unexampled
wretchedness and degradation, he thought abundantly
clear. In order to bring to their Lordships' attention
more directly the depressed state of the country, he had
called for returns from various places of different counties,
as to the condition of the lower orders, and the numbers
of those obtaining parish relief. He had got 41 returns,
Which were on their Lordships' table, and were deserving
of their most earnest attention. These returns contained
comparative view of the state of the poorer classes,
and the number of paupers in the several parishes
at the present time, compared with their condition in 1828.
That was the period immediately after the panic, and a
tinie when the state of the country was supposed to be at
1°W-water mark, and at the lowest state of depression.
The whole of the returns deserved the best consideration
of their Lordships ; but he particularly requested their
attention to the returns from Andover, Congleton, Co-
ventry, Manchester, Macclesfield, and Leeds, as these
might be considered as the capitals of their several dis-
tricts. Coventry was one of those places which was con-
sidered as the least distressed ; and yet their Lordships
Would find by the returns, that even the state of Coventry,
as Well as that of the other places, had been regularly de-
clining, from 182 G down to the present time. He ob-
served that in a speech of Mr. Herries, which somehow
or other had found its way into the newspapers, upon the
authority of Mr. Goods, Leeds was in a flourishing con-
dition, and that the distress was partial ; but their Lord-
ships would see from the return that in those places where
there was said to be the least distress, that these had been
declining in the most serious degree from 1826 down to
the present time. The returns were themselves facts, and
did net leave the matter to opinion. The returns proved
that the distress was not partial, as the sentiments of the
Minister would seem to indicate ; and if such was the con-
dition of the districts supposed to be flourishing, what
must be the state of those which were universally allowed
to he in a situation of depression approaching to the starva-
tion pitch ? By these returns he had proved that great
distress did exist in the country; and if that fact should
be denied, it would be incumbent on the Ministers to give
better reasons for their conclusions than any they had yet
given. From 1826, the period when the depression was
supposed to be at its lowest, he had proved that there had
been a rapid though silent progress downwards to the pre-
sent time, till the distress had reached the starvation pitch,
and that there were some causes or other which preyed on
the very vitals of industry. As to the state of wages, there
was a plan in some places of paying in goods instead of
money, which was very disagreeable to the men ; but
what should he done as to that he was not prepared to
'ay, as it was proper to abstain as much as possible from
interfering between master and workman. Another mea-
sure well deserving of consideration was Mr. Slaney's excel-
lent proposal for amending the poor laws. :t was impos-
sible that the poor laws should continue as they were. The
amount of poor's rates was constantly increasing; and
when it was considered as a constantly increasing tax, and
how much more the South of England was affected by it
than the North, and that the people could no longer suffer
under the burdensome duty, he thought there was no way
.to avoid the evil but by an inquiry, in which they would
be able to see whether the administration of these laws was
not more demoralising in its effects on the people than be-
neficial to them. If there was no other injury produced
than that one of the overwhelming competition of labour
Lend IT bounty that produced it, he should say there was
Loan" for inquiry. It might be unpleasant to some Noble
'di,' but he felt it his duty to say that the irruption of
Irish labourers into this country was a great grievance. The
poor's rites here
afforded a bounty on this irruption. He
would not place
restriction on immigration into this coun-
try of Irish labourers ;
but if they would speculate on coming
here, he thought the speculation should be at their own
peril ; he wlvolu,iled. place them in this country on the same
footing on
Englishman
Wo_ll„they were in England, or on which an
an Irishman
si__Lui.be in Ireland. The fact of his being
receiving "mild.incapacitate him in this country from
at
laid before parisha relief and from being passed back again
parish expense. He bad in his hand the particulars
He
that was called Lord Stanley's
Committee, where it was stated 20,418 Irish paupers
were passed from five
years ,
that
the county of Lancaster alone, in the last
than if h at they had been passed at an expense greater
,they had been sent by the mail coach. The grossest
',rvaeureusitisveroe committed by these persons; for though they
labour i,iptis,isession of funds which they had obtained by
conveyed backs
again,
they yet applied to the parishes to be
order th the again, and pretended the utmost distress, in
ment fatheir eyamight secure to themselves the full enjoy-
The Committee who stated these
facts recommended that the Irish here should be put upon
the same ees •
tensive distret'snsg as
in Ireland. Another plod of the ex-
ults to be foutiani"' Prevailing in every part of England
the Savings'
The els
tann the lessened amount of stuns paid into
country. hs established in different parts of the
the classes of mmesrewi 11° Put money into Savings' Banks, like
were dinainishin
given upon this g ints, shipowners, and manufacturers,
'eir capital every day. From the return
, subject, •
amounted to 449 ty be found, in 1829, the sums paid in
1,444,9375. , 493/, and the sums paid out amounted to
sums
paidin
at: the early part of the present year, the
out to 117,5 toioulmed to 92,7511., and the sums paid
paid out of 21,7,2' sZving a baiance on the side of the sums
that the Savings'
Eminent did somethi
tan From these returns it was evident
hs could not last longer, sinless Par-
buted to them.
which regardedne
ne ng to relieve the classes who contri-
tion,carne to the last part of the mo-
longer his intention tribe effects of taxation. It was no
after the reduction rna,lY much stress on that part
appear a little ungracioue the Noble Duke, it would
ships to press him furthers and ungenerous in their Lord-
bt:'t Present. But though great

credit and great gratitude were due to him for what he
had done, it must be regretted that he had not gone some-
what further, and reduced some of those taxes that now
pressed so heavily on the labouring classes—that curtailed
their comforts—that contracted the amount of the articles
they consumed, and in that manner diminished the re-
turns to commercial enterprise. When he considered the
distresses and privations of the working classes—that
many of them were obliged to live upon fourpence or
sixpence a day, he felt that every farthing of increased
cost in the necessary articles of life was a matter to
which their Lordships ought to grant their deliberate con-
sideration. When he spoke of the necessary articles of
life, he meant not to re-agitate the question of the
Corn Laws, which, after years of discussion, had now
been set at rest. But there were other articles of life of
considerable, though not, perhaps, of equal importance--
he meant tea and sugar. Tea, at least such tea as the la-
bouring classes drank, which was generally under 2s. a
pound, paid a duty of 96 per cent. ; while sugar, which
in bond cost 255. paid a duty of 275., or a tax of above
100 per cent. But in discussing the effects of taxation on
the production of industry, he could not omit to mention
the articles of soap and candles; the last especially was of
much importance to the poor man, who was often up be-
fore daylight, and working after it had become dark, and to
whom, therefore, a reduction of the price of candles must
he most beneficial. He would not go into a detail of taxa-
tion ; but if he were to do ro, it would be more with a
view of ascertaining what were the taxes that pressed most
heavily, and whether their might not be a commutation of
some of them. He was sure that if he could go into de-
tail, and show the Noble Duke that a commutation of
taxes might be adopted, the Noble Duke would be most
ready to avail himself of the suggestion, and would do
everything in his power to diminish the burden that now
pressed on the people. The ,Noble Duke saw that the
state of the country demanded this, and he besides saw
that the consumption of articles always so much increased
when the duty on them was diminished, that the public
revenue suffered no loss whatever from the reduction. It
was always with great regret that he trespassed on their
Lordships' time, but more particularly so when the matter
en which he had to speak regarded himself personally; but
his anxiety to place his conduct in a right point of view
on this occasion must be his excuse. He had been
charged with inconsistency, in having contradicted
by his actions out of doors that which he had said
in that House—he meant upon the subject of the em-
ployment of paupers in workhouses. It was assumed that
he had connived at the practice of employing them in
drawing carts. He could assure their Lordships he
had never done so. The only instance of this kind which
had come to his knowledge, and had fallen within his ju-
risdiction as a Magistrate, was this :—Some men came to
him at Bognor, nine miles from his residence, and said that
there were paupers harnessed to carts, drawing sand from
the sea shore. He met them on the following day. He
was Chairman of the Magistrates, and he would do his bro-
ther Magistrates and himself the justice to say that they
examined into the matter, and that when they found they
had no legal means of preventing that abuse, they remon-
strated with the overseers on the subject, and they ex-
pected that their remonstrances would have been effectual ;
but be was sorry to have learnt that since that time the
same system had been resorted to, and indeed he had him-
self seen two carts, with four men each, attended by what
they called their foreman, but what he must call their
driver.—(Hear, hear.) He pledged his honour for the
truths of what he had said, as to this practice; and asked
their Lordships whether they would not do their utmost to
prevent the continuance of a practice which must have
such a pernicious moral effect ? He was glad to hear the
other night from the Noble Duke at the head of the Go-
vernment, that if England should be again called on to go to
war, she was in as efficient a state as ever to resume a mili-
tary station; but did their Lordships believe that if our
armies were to be composed of men degraded as those men
were—who must have lost their ancient English spirit—
did they believe, he asked, that if their Peninsular army
had been composed of such men, even if they had been
under the command of the greatest General of this or any
preceding age, they would have stormed Ciudad Rodrigo
or Badajos—they would have scaled the Pyrennees, have
overthrown the enemy at Waterloo, and finally, as they
had done, have planted the standard of England in the
capital of France? He could not but answer that ques-
tion in the negative; and he could not but feel that if they
once allowed the people of this country to be degraded,
their national honour, almost their national existence,
must cease. He intended to have gone further into this
subject, but he felt unable at present to do so. He felt
less regret at the omission, as be knew it would be amply
supplied by those who would follow him. The Noble
Duke concluded by moving for a Select Committee to in-
quire into the internal state of the country, the conditio❑
of the working classes, and the effect of taxation upon
productive industry.
Earl BATHURST said that if the Noble Duke had con-
cluded his speech by simply moving for a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into the administration of the poor laws,
it would have had no opposition from him. There were
indeed strong grounds for such a measure, but none what-
ever for the inquiry now demanded. When the Noble
Duke referred to the returns made during the last winter,
he ought to recollect that the last winter having been one
of unusual severity, they must not be taken as a standard.
Another thing the Noble Duke referred to was the dimi-
nution of payments into the savings banks ; but from his
having referred to the returns on that subject as a proof
of distress, it would seem that the Noble Duke was not
aware that the difference had been created by the altera-
tions in the law, which did not now allow any man to
have more than 2001. standing in his name at one time.
and did not permit him to put in more than 301. at a time.
The returns, therefore, afforded no proof of increased
distress. The inquiry the Noble Duke proposed was of
the most extensive nature. He was totally averse from
such an unlimited inquiry, because, among other
things, it would hold out expectations to the people
that never could be realised. The Noble Duke acknow-
ledged his reluctance to go into the question of the tax o❑
foreign corn; but if this Committee was granted, how
could he avoid the discussion of that question ?—a discus-
sion which, on every ground, was to be avoided if pos-
sible. He himself was convinced that no alteration in the
present system of the Corn Laws would be ultimately be-
neficial to the people; but the discussion itself ought to
be deprecated, as creating a division between the two great
interests of the country. The question of currency, too,
was one that must and would be brought forward ; and,
indeed, he did not know any question that would not come
withi❑ the scope of this most extensive inquiry. Now if
there was any inquiry to be desired, it would be that re-
specting the relative supply of the precious metals. A
Noble Marquis had contended, that since the supply of
silver had been much diminished of late years, it would
be a question whether they ought not to return to the
ancient standard. In supporting this line of argument,
too, the Noble Marquis had said, that up to 1797 silver
was the only standard. He at least had so understood
him ; and entertaining the highest respect for that Noble
Lord's information, and the utmost diffidence in his own
opinion, he had been induced to inquire into the fact—the
result of which was, that he found that in 1717, at the
time that Sir Isaac Newton was Master of the Mint, an
Act was passed, by which gold was declared to be the cur-
rent coin of the tealm. It appeared, therefore, that gold
at this period became as much the standard metal as silver,
both being the common coin of the country. But the
Noble Marquis seemed to understand that at least by prac-
tice silver was the only current coin of the realm. The
fact, however, was, that the practice was directly the
contrary. For from 1717 to 1797 (that was to say, for
a period of SO years), the whole amount of the silver
coinage was 656,000/. From this he argued, that the in-
dication was that silver had ceased to be the current coin
of the realm. True, it might have been received to any
extent. But what was the value of silver? The real
value was 30 per cent. below the nominal value. In other
words, it was—that if a man had collected a certain
quantity of silver, and had a bill of 701. to pay, he was
compelled to pay in that silver to the nominal value of
1001. At the same time, however, what was the state of
the people respecting the silver tokens? It might be illus-
trated in the same manner. For if a man having this bill
of 701. to pay, and a quantity of silver on hand, went to
the Bank, he there received 701. in sovereigns to discharge
his debt. And what, he would ask, was the state of the
currency at present ? We had paper convertible into
gold, and we had seven millions of silver tokens convertible
into gold ; and we had, therefore, all the advantages which
could be gained by a return to the ancient standard. Ac-
cordingly, when the Noble Marquis contended that be-
cause the portion of gold to silver had been diminished

there was no objection to taking the metal of lower value,
he felt hound to differ from him. He was also compelled
to dissent to the proposition of the Noble Duke, thinking
as he did that it could be productive of no advantage from
the multifarious objects to which the inquiry must neces-
sarily be directed. If they granted a Committee, they would
be obliged to enter into the considerations of the currency,
because the change in the currency had been mentioned as
one of the causes of the distress. They would also be
compelled to enter into the situation of the agricultural
and manufacturing interests—and into the whole state of
trade and of taxation, as it bore directly or indirectly on
the productive classes. In a word, he considered that the
duties of the Committee would be of so extensive a nature,
that in the end it could be of no possible use, and he would,
therefore, vote against it.
The Earl of MANSFIELD rose to give his cordial
support to the motion. It was contended that the in-
quiry would be interminable. This was asserted broadly,
but there was, perhaps, a latent objection to the effect, that
they might inquire without possessing the possibility of
affording relief. They all allowed there was some distress.
He would therefore say that they were all bound to dis-
cover the nature and extent of this distress, and to see if
there were not remedies which could be applied. He had
not the advantage of having been present at the delivering
of the King's Speech. He was, however, in common with
others, surprised to find the public distress so lightly men-
tioned. At the same time he allowed, that perhaps in the
writing of that Speech, those light touches had, perhaps,
cost these Ministers more labour and difficulty than any of
the other parts of that composition.—(Laughter.)—This
Speech was, of course, understood to be the Speech of his
Majesty's Ministers, and taking it as such, and considering
the meeting at which it was agreed to (he would not say
discussed), this might, perhaps, upon the authority of an
old proverb, in some degree account for the misrepresenta-
tions of the state of the country, which it contained.
" Un hemme riche, quand it a bien dine, voit tout le monde
heureux."—(Laughter and cheers.)—Notwithstanding the
Ministerial statement, however, the distress was severe
and general, and lie would say, that the patience with
which it had been endured, was indeed wonderful. This
proceeded, in his opinion, from no confidence in his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. For the endurance of the Administra-
tion was looked to as the National Debt, or any other
grievance. He did not say this as one partaking in this
opinion, or as one entertaining the contrary ; he merely
mentioned it as a prevalent feeling. He knew, however,
hewould not be misunderstood in that House, and he
knew he should never find it necessary to shield his own
opinions under the form of those of another.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—But to resume ; he attributed this endu-
rance upon the part of the distressed people to that moral
courage so often praised, but never too frequently or too
highly—and he also attributed it to that increase of corn-
nion sense, which prevented them from being seduced
from the path of duty and of loyalty by the voice of fac-
tious orators.—(Hear.)—The people now looked to Par-
liament alone, and this because they well knew it was a
body anxious to inquire into their circumstances, and to
promote their interests They knew, too, that if they suf-
fered themselves to be betrayed into seditious language or
acts of violence, the injury was sure to recoil upon them-
selves, and that they were neutralising the efforts of their
friends and advocates. This statement was not flattering
to the individual Minister, but still it was matter of con-
gratulation to their Lordships, for it put the security of
the Government and Constitution upon a secure foundation.
—(Cheers.)—ln looking, however, to the improved
loyalty of the people, it should be remembered that this,
in the season of distress, gave them a high claim
upon the attention of their Lordships—it should
compel them to take the whole case into their con-
sideration.—(Hear, hear, hear. )—He had hitherto
appeared to argue this question as if their Lordships were
placed on an exalted height to view the public distress,
being themselves free from the contagion. But was this
the case ? In other countries, where the superb palace,
resplendent with every ornament that art could furnish,
and loaded with every luxury that Europe could supply,
stood by the side of the lowly and wretched cottage, which
appeared before it like Lazarus pining at the rich man's
gate, there was no community of sentiment between the
tenants of such opposite dwellings, founded upon the con-
sciousness of equal rights and freedom and protection by
the law. No. They had no common interest or feeling
—the discrepancy between them in all things was as great
as it was in wealth and station. But here, although there
was a difference in the degree of wealth possessed by indi-
viduals, there was still a greater diffusion of property,
and the advantages of property, than there was else-
where. Tale traveller in former days, when passing
through England, might observe that there were indi-
vidual objects of misery ; but he could not then (he
wished lie could not now) declare that the stamp of misery
was upon any particular class.—(Loud cheers.)—But
now whole bodies of people were in misery, and this could
not long exist without affecting all classes, from the ma-
nufacturing and agricultural, till it reached the very
highest. He hoped that if they consented to a Committee
many of the statements made respecting the distress would
be found overcharged; many, however, would doubtless
be supported by facts, and it became them to adopt speedy
measures to prevent the lower classes from falling into a
decay, which would be sure to affect the property of the
nation. When one looked to the prosperity of a country,
they should not regard the wealth of a few, or the pro-
digality of individuals, emulous of that displayed by
Rome in its decadence; the sure test was the obser-
vation of the comparative state of comfort and hap-
piness enjoyed by the lower classes. The second
division of the inquiry was respecting the pres-
sure of taxation ; and here he admitted that it
would be necessary to enter into the questions of corn
and currency ; but still, however multifarious might be
the objects to which their attention might be directed,
they would still be enabled to bear before their eyes that
their object should be to ascertain the facts respecting the
distress, to investigate the causes, and to seek for such reme-
dies as might appear attainable. In conclusion, he supported
the motion, not because it was actually the best, but be-
cause it was the best that offered. He had rather some
proposition had emanated from Ministers, who might have
divided the subject as they pleased. Still he thought
much good might be effected by a Committee, constituted
as it would be. He would support his Noble Friend's
motion, and he trusted that other Noble Lords opposite,
who had been very acute in former times at finding out
distress, would also favour him with their assistance ; lie
wished this the more particularly, because those Noble
persons were observed, by their eloquence and talents,
to have exercised a great effect upon the measures of the
Administration to which they had been formerly opposed.
The Earl of ELDON said, that if their Lordships were
disposed to satisfy the people that they wished to relieve
them, the first step should be to inquire into the causes of
the distress under which they were suffering. This was a
point he was anxious to press most particularly upon
them, because their own interests were involved in the
consideration of the question; for it had long been the
boast of England that all classes of its children were as it
were dovetailed together in a community of affection for
each other and the Constitution. He remembered the

mischievous projects afloat in 1792-3-4 and 6, and how
Parliament had succeeded in putting an end to them; and
he hoped that their Lordships would, by the vote of that
night, be enabled to terminate projects of a similar nature
which were then in agitation. He trusted, accordingly, that
there would be no longer any objection upon the part of
the House to the motion for a Committee. They were
told on a former night by several Noble Lords, that their
only objection to the proposition of a Noble Earl was
founded on the manner; they were opposed to a Commit-
tee of the whole House. Now a Select Committee was
proposed, their objections should therefore he removed.—
(Hear, hear.)—He was not one of those who supposed it
was in the power of Parliament to give entire relief to
the people, but it was of the last importance to have
the public satisfied that, even if it were not in their
power to comply with their wishes, you were at least
anxious to inquire into the causes of their distress,
and to afford them all possible assistance. He was en-
couraged to hope, from what had passed upon a former
occasion, that this inquiry would not nosy be denied—an
inquiry which the assertion in the King's Speech, that
described the distress as only partial, did in itself; after
the many documents to a contrary effect which had been
laid before the House, render necessary. Ministers had
found out that the country might be relieved to the extent
of three millions and a half, in one spring morning, and
they even doubted whether the relief might not extend to
five millions ; he, therefore, felt confident, that as the wea-
ther improved, the country might expect further disco-
veries of this sort. The same objections that had been

- The Earl of BOSEBERRY would direct himself to
what had fallen from the Noble Earl, the President of the
Council, who had adverted to what he had said with re-
spect to silver being the standard of the currency. The
Noble Earl had stated, that so far back as 1719, when Sir
Isaac Newton had settled the currency of the country, gold
had been made the standard. When his Noble Friend
asserted that fact, he had forgot to state that when the
arrangement took place, gold was settled conformably to
the price of silver. In 1774 an Act of Parliament had
been brought in, limiting the silver coinage as a legal
tender to 251. ; but the Noble Earl, in stating that fact,
had forgot to state that the reason of the measure was,
that the silver coinage was then touch debased, and below
the market value of the metal. The Noble Earl had stated
that if any man now went to the Bank with seventy pounds
in gold, he could easily obtain for it seventy pounds in silver,
but this was merely from the civility of the Bank, arising
from their want of silver in their current trans-
actions. The Noble Earl near him (Lord Eldon) had
entirely mistaken all be had said respecting the distresses
of the country. The tenor of his speech had been ill
favour of inquiry, although he had objected to the mode
of inquiry proposed, which was at the bar. The present
motion of the Noble Duke opposite was altogether free
from objection. He perfectly agreed with his Majesty's
Speech where he recommended the House to separate those
causes of distress which were beyond Legislative controul,
from those which might be within the reach of Parliament.
He also agreed with that part of the Speech in which was
recommended the greatest degree of caution in any inquiry
into so delicate and intricate a subject ; but he could not
acquiesce in the opinion that because some of the causes of dis-
tress were beyond legislative controul that therefore the House
was not to make any inquiry into those causes that were,
or might be, within the reach of Parliament. This would
amount to an absolute prohibition of all inqUiry. He was
happy that a Committee had been established to inquire
into the condition of the poor of Ireland, and he should
support the present motion.
Lord CAMDEN thought the motion w.is not to rest
upon any general views of distress, for it was a specific
motion for a Select Committee to inquire into a specific
subject. In 1522, the distress hp.,l been so great that he
and many other landlords had been obliged to remit a whole
year's rent to their tenantry. He was confident that the
distress of the country had been greatly exaggerated ; and
many thought it not bad sport, by such means, to (listless
Ministers.—(Hear.)—He had every respect for the expres-
sion of the genuine sense of the people ; but he could - Not
avoid entertaining the opinion, that public meetings were
not unfrequently called, rather to hack the opinions of cer-
tain Members of Parliament, than to ascertain the real
wishes of the great body composing the assembly. He
was sorry to hear a Noble Earl assert this night, that Mi-
nisters were not aware of the state of the coun:ry. If they
were not, it was must extraordinary, considering that they
had the best means of information. The remedy for such
distress as existed was unquestionably economy and reduced
taxation ; and he was sure that the present Government
had evinced a strong disposition in favour of both. A
prudent economy had been both professed and practised.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose to offer the most cor-

dial support to the motion of his Noble Friend, which

had been brought forward in a manner entitling the
Noble Duke to the gratitude of his country, and esta-
blishing for him a character more to be envied than the

exalted honours of his station. Ile had heard with sur-
prise from the Noble President of the Council, that it
was impossible to enter upsn an inquiry into the distresses
of the labouring, agricultural, and manufacturing popula-
tion, without including the distresses of other classes of

the community. Would that be received in the country
as a sufficient answer to the present motion, and would it
not be thought the grossest dereliction of Parliamentary
duty to refuse investigation ? Another Noble Lord had
argued that to remove the abuses of the poor laws would
furnish a remedy and afford relief. True it was that the
mal-administratio❑ of the poor laws might have aggra-
vated the sufferings of the lower orders ; but he (Lord
Winchilsea) was at a loss to know how even the removal
of the abuses of the poor laws could afford any thing like
adequate relief. The poor-rates at this moment amounted
to from seven to ten millions annually, and without them
the labouring classes would be reduced to the last stage of
misery and starvation. It seemed to [Jim that the poor
laws, taken by themselves, formed one of the finest codes
that had ever entered the mind of mind, and the mal-ad-
ministration of those laws was all that c,,uld be reasonably
complained of. He firmly believed that there was but one
interest in the cou❑try—that all were desirous to place
affairs upon the best and most prosperous footing, hut he
thought at the same time that mistaken notions prevailed ;
and if it were true, as was asserted by some, that

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and the Duke of Wel-
lington rose at the same time; the latter gave way ; and
the former proceeded to say, he rejoiced, both upon public
and private grounds, at the recovery of the Noble Duke.
The proposition he had submitted divided itself into two
parts-1. The state of the labouring poor ; 2. The state
of taxation, as affecting the productive industry of the
country. The objection he felt was, that the motion was
too comprehensive, inasmuch as either branch was an
amply sufficient subject of inquiry by a Committee. This
was not the first time the story of national distress and ruin
had been repeated ; it had been beard over and over again
during the last 150 years. Because rents have fallen or
were difficult to be obtained—because wages were low and
poor rates high, therefore the country was upon the brink
of ruin. George Earl of Middleton, in his day, was so im-
pressed with the weight of the National Debt and the
amount of taxation, that even then he declared that the
country could never survive. Sir John Sinclair, too, had
shown that between 1688 and 1783, the country, accord-
ing to the prognostications of some, had been twenty-two
times ruined, and twenty-two times bankrupt.—(Hear,
hear.)—Therefore, whatever effect these gloomy anticipa-
tions might have upon the country, he hoped the House
was not to he frightened by them. His objection to the
motion of the Noble Duke was, that it would excite ex-
pectations that could not be realised, and that the people
would give Parliament credit for having more power to
'aid them than it was willing to exert. He did full justice
to the motives of the Noble Duke ; it was natural in " the
early morning air" of his political life that he should feel
a strong sympathy for the sufferings of the distressed,
and that he should be anxious to relieve ; but he ought
to recollect how many out of doors would make use
of his name and authority to raise hopes that must be dis-
appointed, and by means of that disappointment to work
upon the discontented. The present state of the farmers
was in a great degree owing to the present state of the
country—to the condition of peace we enjoyed, and to the
intercourse we carried on with neighbouring nations. Es-
sex and Buckinghamshire, for instance, were dairy coun-
ties—from them the metropolis used mainly to be supplied
with butter; but at present Dutch and French butter
were brought over by steam ; and the Noble Duke this
morning by his last breakfast had contributed to the very
state of things he deplored. The farmer got his labour
cheaply done by employing the labourers who were partly
paid out of the poor rates, and therefore it was so far his
interest that the registers of the poor should be kept full ;
and he believed that a great proportion of the last harvest,
which was said to be a good one, was got in in that man-
ner. This was a bad system ; but then why not bring
forward a specific measure to amend it ? That might be
a very proper course, but a general inquiry was not the
proper mode of proceeding. So much as to the first part
of the Noble Duke's position. As to the second part,
which related to the depressed state of the industry of
the country. Now, on comparing the years 1823-4. and 5
with the years 1828-9-30, the production in the latter years
was much greater, and there was consequently much more
j employment for the labourers. This was the case with
resp:ct to wool and other goods. If the taxes had
been the cause of the distress, then the distress ought to
have been much more severe on the labouring classes in
the former series of years than in the latter, which was
not, in fact, the case. Oh, but his Noble Friend on the
other side would say, that at the former period there was
a paper currency. He thought he observed paper cur-
rency at the corner of his mouth. But even in the times
of paper currency there was distress, which was the same
in principle, thought not in amount. It was asserted,
not only that distress existed generally all over the coun-
try, but the causes of that distre-s were stated. As to
the existence of distress to a very considerable extent, it
was too:clear to be contested; but he could not admit that
the taxes were the cause of the distress. If they were,
then in those places where the taxes were low the distress
would not prevail. But look at Switzerland, America,
and France, where the amount of taxation was low, and
it would appear that the distress prevailed in those coun-
tries as well as in England. Then we were told that
the National Debt was the cause of the distress. If so,
then in those places where there was no debt, or a debt
comparatively low in amount, the distress would not
exist. But look at the state of Switzerland, Germany,
America, and France—the distress was the same, al-
though in Switzerland there was no debt, and in the
other places it was comparatively low. The truth was
that the distress prevailed generally over the world. It
was absurd, then, to say that the distress arose from these
causes. Then as to the paper cut rency, he requested their
Lordships to call to mind the time when the paper cur-
rency was at its height, when, as it was said, there was
the fullest mutual confidence between the farmer and the
paper banker. At that time a farmer would come and
take a farm from any one of their Lordships without hav-
ing the means to stock it. lie then applied to the paper

banker, who issued paper without capital t qual to the
amount of his issues, and he got abundance of paper ; but
the consequence often was that both the one and the other
failed, and your farm was spoiled, while the rent was
frequently unpaid. There were some who appeared to
think that the paper currency ought again to be resorted

. „
to, which had produced the bubble of 18:25, when 165
hankers hided. From that time the paper currency had
been gradu dly diminishing, and recourse was had to a
metallic currency, and with great advantage. And it was
a remarkable circumstance, that out of those 165 banks
which failed, 160 paid 15s. in the pound; that is,
they paid their debts to that extent in the metal-
lic currency, although they had h• en contracted in
the paper. It was easy fur the Noble Duke to sit at
talniecesC.ustlofmt-hheouse,
Noble aling out for complaints of
Dukegriev-
he North any un-
favourable accounts of the state of the Tallow Trade, he
d from the
called out for inquiry. If there was a pressure of French
silk in the market, the only remedy was a Committee. The
distress was general all over the woi Id, and vet inquiry
was called for as if it had been exclusively British.
The real cause of the distress he believed to be the breaking

Earl RADNOR—The latter part of the argument of
the Noble Duke who had opposed the motion was some-
what extraordinary; for he had complained of the union
of parties in support of the motion, as something unwhole-
some. Now, that appeared to him to be an argument in
favour of the inquiry, for it showed that the motion was
so decidedly right, that even those who differed on all
other topics agreed in this.—(Hear, hear. )—Another ob-
jection made to the appointment of a Committee was, that
it would raise the expectations of the people; but it was
also contended that every thing was in a state of improve-
ment : and if that were the case, he thought that the
Noble Duke ought to join with them in voting for the
Committee, so that they might explain to the people who
were crying out so lustily, how it was that they were so
entirely mistaken, It would have been more satisfactory
if the Noble Duke, however, had stated his grounds for
these assertions, for the people bad not yet been able to
tied out the improvement that was talked of. He was
not in any way connected with Manchester, but a person
with whom he was entirely unacquainted had written him
a letter in allusion to the petition that had come from that
place. From that letter it appeared that there were num-
bers living at Manchester on 2d. and 2-id. a-day. At
Huddersfield, too, where a public meeting took place on

the 11th December, it appeared that out of 29,697 per-
sons, there were 660 who were only able to earn 6s. 11d.
a week; 439 who were living on sial. a-day ; and
13,226 who were living on 2#4. a-day. This was in
December. On the 28th of February a letter was writ-
ten, to inquire whether matters were improved, and the
answer was, that from good information it appeared that
the extent of the distress was more than doubled. From
the paper which he held in his hand, it appeared that the
wages of the silk weavers were in 1828 15 per cent.
higher than at present ; in 1826, 30 per cent. higher ; in
different parts of the year 1625, 40 and 55 per cent.
higher; and in 1624, 60 per cent. higher. Th, distress
of the people now, however, was beyond parallel ; many
were obliged to sleep in their day clothes ; others had only
a little straw to lie on, and, in many instances, front four
pcltrei ns
teorn eobr'edil—ug(ll:l°;rlnfiel'dn.aleslnanad petition
being promiscuously mixed. But these things were not
ctoonsfiixnepdertsoon;
which he presented a few nights ago, from Dursley, in
Gloucestershire, it appeared that there were 694 payers
of rates, and that upwards of 3,0001. were raised for the
relief of the poor, independently of 2501. given in volun-
tary donations, and 1001. from a manufacturing commit-
tee ; from these funds there were 1,500 poor receiving
relief, and 750 more, who, though not actually receiving
parochial aid, were so poor as to be unable to support
themselves, many living upon 1511. a week. When tl.ese
things were existing in one part of the country, it was
impossible that there could be prosperity in any other.
And there was evidence that he was right, for there hail
been county meetings in every part of the country. A
INoble Lord had said that there had been no distress in
Northumberland, but at all tYellti there had been

County meeting there, complaining of distress. It was
remarkable that all these county meetings had given rise to
tl.e question of Reform ; and he, therefore, thought that
if the Government wanted to get rid of that question they
had better grant the inquiry.—(Hear, hear.)—The peti-
tion from Manchester had not "mentioned the subject of
Reform, because it was an understanding with the 80.-
roughreeve that that question should be avoided. In the
town of Birmingham, however, the question had been
most seriously agitated; 'and he understood that he
should in a few days be entrusted with a petition from
that place to present to their Lordships. But, besides
this, a Political Union had taken place in that town,
and among its members were to be found men of great
knowledge, talent, and influence : this Union had its
correspondence, its subscriptioni, and its fund, and the
burthen of its song was Reform in Parliament. The
Noble Earl had said that the people were still inclined to
look up to the Parliament for redress; but he believed
that they were getting tired of that—(Hear, hear)—
and if Parliament persisted in taking no notice of
their petitions, they would soon cease altogether.—(Hear.)
—For himself he was a Reformer—a Radical Reformer.
—(Murmurs.)—lf there were any reproach attaching to
that title, he was open to it, for he had long been a Radical
Reformer—(Hear)—and he had become so from the con-
viction that the voice of the people was not attended to in
the Horse of Commons. It had been said that the Go-
vernment did attend to the wishes of the people; and that
they had shown it lately by the course they had adopted
with respect to the taxation of the country : as far as that
went he approved of the taxes that had been taken off, and
of the manner in which it had been done. But that was
not sufficient. The necessities of the people were such,
that much mere was necessary. But there was a promise
of more being done next year ; now, if the Ministers could
so far anticipate their power, why not give that relief now?
If it was only to be done next year, the people would suffer
in the meanwhile, and the premised relief would be of
little service to them. What had fallen from the Noble
Earl (Bathurst) appeared to him to be as much like
seconding the motion as possible.—(Hear, hear.)—He re-
membered a line somewhere which said,

6. My wound's so great, because it is so small."

But the argument of the Noble Earl appeared to be, that
because there were so many wounds open—because there
were so many classes of the people suffering, and enduring
privations—therefore the inquiry would be interminable,
and it would be better not to go into it. The Noble Earl,
however, admitted that the effect out of doors would be,
that Noble Lords would be compelled to lower their rents.
Earl BATHURST—He never used the term "compel,"
at all.

Earl RADNOR—He did not intend to lay any
stress upon the term " compel," though he believed
that they would be compelled to lower their rents—(A
Laugh)—and that not a bit the less for their inquiry. He
thought that the arguments and facts which had been ad-
duced were sufficient to justify a call for inquiry, and he
should therefore vote for the motion of the Noble Duke, as
the Noble Lords connected with his Majesty's Govern..
ment appeared to act on the principle that matters had
reached their worst, and that they must now get better.
The Earl of ROSSLYN—To think that his Noble
Friend's speech was in the spirit of seconding the Noble
Duke's motion was the strongest possible misconception of
what had fallen from him. So far from saying that a
greater variety of grievances existed, his Noble Friend had
only said that the extent and number of the evils set forth
in the motion were so great as to render inquiry impracti-
cable. The motion of the Noble Duke embraced every
possible interest ; it required the solution of the most dif-
ficult question in political economy, viz. what was the true
effect and amount of indirect taxation, and the wages and
situation of the labourer, whether agricultural or manu-
facturing ? This was a question of so broad an extent,
that it was impossible for one Committee to embrace the
whole of its details. The Noble and learned Lord had
said, that be should approve of a Select Committee if it
were limited in its extent and duration ; but a Committee
on such a subject would be limited in neither—it would
be interminable. They had the admission of the Noble
Earl, that, to do justice to the case, it would be necessary
to take the matter up part by part. He did not think
that any practical good .could come of it even in that
way ; and if not, it would prove no satisfaction to the
country. But even supposing that the Committee were
granted, and distress were proved to the hearts' con-
tent of the Noble Lords opposite, he should like
to know in what manner they would agree even
to the settling of the order of proceeding. The Noble
Earl would be for the unlimited issue of paper and the ex-
tinction of all metallic currency, till they arrived at the
prosperous situation of another Bank restriction. While
they were revelling in all these advantages, another Noble
Lard would cry, " filthy rags," and cry out against the
detestable fraud of robbing the creditor of his just rights
for the purpose of relieving the debtor. The Noble Baron
would propose no such thing as the alteration of the cur-
rency or an equitable adjustment : his remedy would be
the corn laws and the subversion of all monopolies. The
Noble Marquis would recommend the adoption of a silver
standard, while the Noble Earl opposite would only ac-
cede to it on the terms of its being received at the present
price of silver. Their Lordships had been told by the Noble
Earl opposite that they might obtain relief by altering the
standard.
The Earl of ROSEBERRY begged the Noble Earl's
Pardon ; but he had never asserted that a silver standard
ought to be adopted, as silver was now comm.]. He was
aware of the difference between the old and the present
silver standard, but what he desired was that silver and
gold should be the standard currency.
The Earl of ROSSLYN (in continuation) had not ap-
plied his observations to the Noble Earl, but to the other
Noble Earl near him (Earl Carnarvon), who he was
happy to see, acknowledged his own child.—(A laugh.)—
He proposed a silver standard, coining the pound of silver
into sixty-six shillings ; and such a standard would, no
doubt, be a relief, but it would, at the same time, defraud
the public and private creditor as much as a direct altera-
tion in the standard, though not, perhaps, to so great an
extent. If anything of that kind IN ere to be done, how-
ever, he should prefer doing it openly and fairly, stating,
like other bankrupts, that we could not pay our debts ;
and, like them, cheating our creditors to a certain extent.
Eat their Lordships must consider that any alteration of
that kind affected not only the public creditor, but private
creditors. The Noble Lord who supported the Committee
seemed to have no determined object in view. Moreover,
he should object to the Committee, that the conflict of
opinions amongst those who proposed it, did not allow
him to think it possible that they could suggest an advan-
tageous remedy. The subjects proposed for discussion,
also, were very numerous. They were to inquire into the
causes of distress, and the influence of taxation ; they
were, likewise, to suggest a commutation of tithes; they
were to enter into all possible subjects ; but if they were
to m dee suggestions about a commutation of tithes, why
not inquire into the revenues of the Church ? But the
Committee was to do more than this ; it was to suggest
means for the management of private property, and advise
landlords, how to cultivate their estates. He would ask
their Lordships, if they went into the Committee with
such various topics before them, and with the conflicting
opinions of Noble Lords, if they were to advise landed
gentlemen, and inquire into the means of putting an end
to monopolies, if various other topics were to be included,
what possible practical good could they expect? He ob-
jected to the Committee, that it could not possibly do any
good; it could not give any relief; and the mere appoint-
ment of the Committee would add to the difficulties of the
country, and cause fluctuations that could not be otherwise
than mischievous. He believed that much of the difficul-
ties of the country arose from the uncertainty of public
affairs, from the changes which had taken place, and from
the apprehension of further changes, which tended to pre-
vent a fixed settlement and kept the people from entering
into speculations. In 1826, the 1/. notes were suppressed,
though he believed they had nothing to do with the dan-
gers of that period. The Bill to suppress those notes had
done mischief, by stopping the credit which had been
created by those notes, while most of the banks it ap-
peared were solvent, for out of 165 which had stopped,
upwards of 100 had paid all demands in full. But whe-
ther the measure of 1926 were good or evil, it wits the
measure of his Noble and Learned Friend. In his opinion,
that measure was uncalled for, and he was particularly
glad that it had not beea extended to Scotland. But
though he believed that it was unwise to put an end to the
one pound notes, he was not of opinion that restoring
them would make things any better. The distress might
be traced to a breach of confidence between different
classes, which had separated the farmer from the banker,
and prevented the former from obtaining sufficient accom-
modation. Changes were made, and more were threatened,
the effect of which was that people were disposed to re-
strict their operations as much as possible. The agitation
of the corn laws was one of the measures which
created uncertainty. He thought some parts of those
laws bad; but to change them would be more mischievous
than keeping them; In all matters of general legislation
affecting the interests of numerous classes, certainty and
security, with stability, were better even than improve-
ment. While there was a probability of change, every man
was uncertain what to do. At present there was more
capital in the country than could find employment ; yet land
in the market could find no purchasers, and was ever' below
the value of the Funds. The difficulty was solved by know-
n that some- capitalists held their capital, expecting a

change which would enable them to employ it more advan-
tageously, while others feared a change for the worse. As
long as the corn laws and free trade were subjects of agi-
tation, the people, fearing change, kept their stocks as low
as possible. It was because the appointment of a Commit-
tee would open a wide door to the expectation of change,
that he was inclined to oppose it. The Noble Baron oppo-
site would advert, in the Committee, to free trade ; and
the Noble Earl would wish to consider the Bank Charter,
with various other things; and, as long as the subjects
were liable to doubt, there was a disposition to suspend
operations, greatly to the injury of the country. Looking
at the discordant views entertained by Noble Lords who
supported the motion, they agreeing to nothing, he could
only consider the motion intended to express dissatis-
faction and discontent with his Majesty's Government.
That was the only point on which all the supporters of the
motion agreed.—(Hear, hear.)—As one of his Majesty's
servants, he must say that if Noble Lords had anything to
accuse them of, he wished that they would bring it openly
forward, and then it might be answered. Ministers then
stood on very favourable ground; they had just reduced
taxation to tl.e utmost extent consistent with the effici-
ency of the establishments of the country.—(Hear.)—
Assurances also had been given that further examination
should be made if it were possible to improve the means
of collecting the revenue, and diminish the expence of our
Colonial Establishments. A great deal had been already
done to the former ; and Commissioners forming part of
the Government, were about to enquire into the latter ;
and they would bring such an inquiry sooner to an end
than could be done by a Committee of that House. Why,
it was asked, was not this done immediately ? Only
because it was reasonable that time should be allowed to
look into the matter, before making alterations. He was
sorry to hear the Noble Earl say that the country had no
confidence in his Majesty's Government, ashe had collected
from his speech ; and he also collected from the Noble
Earl's speech, that the motion was only intended to blame
the Administration, and could not lead to any practical
good. With respect to what was said of the distress, it
could not be either so intense or of such long duration as
it had been represented. During the last year, for ex-
ample, the consumption has been equal to that of the year
before ; while the consumption of coffee had increased.
The consumption of sugar had not been diminished, while
the consumption of British spirits had increased 2,000,000
gallons. These fast proved, he thought, that the distress
was not so extreme and poignant as some gentlemen re-
presented it. Our exports of cotton bad increased
30,000,000 of yards, and of woollens 8,000,000 yards.
It was probable that a large profit was made on these ex-
ports, but it was not, at the same time, probable that the
merchants and manufacturers carried on their trade with a
loss. He hail heard, with some surprise, some Noble
Lords blame the irruption of the Irish into this country.
He knew no distinction between English and Irish, nor
could be listen to any proposition founded on making such
a distinction. Noble Lords who challenge the irruption,
as it was called, of Irish labourers into this coun-
try. seemed, however, ready to take advantage of
it.—(No, no, from several Noble Peers.)—Was it no
advantage, then, to the farmer? If it were not
why did he employ them ? There was no compul-
sion. In fact, however, the farmer liked cheap labour,
and sometimes they were necessary to get the harvest in.
In many places the harvest could not be got in with-
out
their assistance. Some complaints were made of
the expence of sending them hack, but it should be re-
membered
that their coming here had been facilitated for
the advantage of those counties which complained the
most. English landlords had more reason, he thought,
to complain of Irish produce coming—which had gone to
a great extent—than Irish labourers.—(Hear, hear.)—
This was, however, not an evil, but a great benefit—a
great blessing; and one of the great advantages obtained
by the measure of last year.—(Hear, hear.)—Whatever
tended to make English capitalists invest capital in Ireland,
should always have his support ; and it would confer a
great benefit on both countries.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
Nearly five million quarters of corn had been imported
from Ireland during the last and the present year; and
such a large importation was a proof of the improving
condition of Irelund. He would not consent to any
measure which would be likely to prevent the improvement
of that country. Looking at the motion as involving no
practical good, he should give his vote against going into
a Committee.

The Ea!' of CARNARVON only wished to make an
observation on what had fallen from the Noble Earl with
reference to himself. A few days ago he certainly had
proposed a silver standard, and he did it partly from think-
ing that the present standard was so completely an experi-
mental one, that we could not permanently adhere to it.
What he wanted was that silver, not gold, should have
been made the standard of the currency. As far as a con-
current standard of both metals was concerned, one must
be subordinate to the other; and he would have had silver,
allowing gold to pass at an agio. He would also say one
word on the subject of the small notes. He attributed the
distress—which was different from that of former years,
inasmuch as it affected both farmers and manufacturers—
to both classes being deprived of their usual home market,
which grew, in his opinion, out of the distresses of the agri-
culturists, caused by the alteration relative to the small notes.
He had anticipated in 1826 these results, and had then
pointed out the danger to credit, and the general dis-
tress which must ensue, if their Lordships put an end to
the small notes. As he had then anticipated also, the
people had been reduced to paupers. He believed that
there were more small notes in circulation than the Mini-
sters thought, and that their measure was more sweeping
in its consequences than they had expected. He believed
that, under our present circumstances, the greatest boon
the Government could bestow on the country would be to
enter into a negociation with the Bank of England to give
up the Charter, and thus enable us to establish a banking
system on a solid foundation like the Chartered Banks of
Scotland. Thinking that it was due to the country and
to the feelings of the people not to turn a deaf ear to their
complaints, he should vote for going into a Committee.
On the Noble Earl resuming his seat, several Noble
Lords rose to address their Lordships, but
Earl GOWER was called for, and he proceeded to state,
that he shoal,' not approve of the motion for a Committee,
unless, contrary to what lie anticipated, the Government
should not prosecute the efficient measures they had an-
nounced.

The Earl of DARNLEY opposed the motion for in.
quiry, because he did not think it likely to lead to ar.y use-
ful result. The distress he had always maintained to be
partial. Ile believed it to be decreasing, and he thought
the inquiry would only raise expectations which must be
disappointed.
Lord HOLLAND thought it the more necessary to ex-
plain the vote he intended to give in support of the motion,
because he sa.v that two Noble Friends who consented to
the motion of the Noble Earl, were opposed to the motion
of the Noble Duke. The Noble Earl, indeed, who spoke
last in the debate (Lord Darnley) had taken credit to him-
self for having proposed, with respect to the poor of Ire-
land, a measure much the same as that which was now re-
quired for the poor of England; and it was strange that lie
should be indisposed to grant that to the claims of the poor
of the one country which he denied to the poor of the
other. Still stranger was the argument advanced by the
Noble Privy Seal (Rosslyn), when lie described the painful
consequences of entering into inquiry on the state of the
poor of England. The Noble Privy Seal said, God forbid
that I should attempt to draw any distinctions between the
people of the one country and the people of the other ; but
he could not allow expectations to be raised which must be
disappointed, and feelings to be excited which could not be
gratified. The Noble l'rivy Seal thought, forsooth, that
the people of England were of a temperament too sanguine
and too inflammable to be tempted with the prospect which
had just been opened to the poor of Ireland.—(Hear, and
a laugh.)—The people of Ireland might have their expec-
tations raised, for their imaginations were not easily excited;
but it would be dangerous, according to the Noble Privy
Seal, to trust the people of England in the same situation. He
was thankful to the Government for what it had done in the way
of a reduction of taxation, and for the inquiries which it had in-
stituted ; but he was one of those who thought that the Parlia-
ment of England was bound to do a something too. He was not
a Radical Reformer, although he had been thought to have opi-
nions which savoured a little of Reform : but neither he nor any
other Noble Reformer had ever used such strong arguments for
Reform as those used by the two Noble Lords on the Treasury
Bench (Lords Itosslyir and Bathurst,. For what was the al gu-
ment of these Noble Lords ? Why, that the forms of Parlia-
ment provided for cases of inquiry into public distress were totally
useless • that the forms of Parliament became useless just in pro-
portion'to the greatness of the distress which they were called on
to inquire into.—(Hear.)--It had been contended that in a Corn.
mittee men of different opinions must sit, and different questi .ns
must be proposed. And why not ? Their Lordships had just
appointed a Committee to inquire into the affairs of India, which
was studiously composed of men of every party—which contained
men of every colour.—(A laugh.)—lt might be very true that
various questions would be brought under the consideration of
the Committee, and it was particularly said that the curret.cy
would form a subject of discussion. It might be so; but the
Committee was required to consider the cause of the evils
which afflicted the poor. It was their duty to ascertain
what that cause was; and it might be recollected that in
a motion of this kind with respect to Ireland, four years
ago, no such variety of subject was inquired into as that
which Noble Lords seemed to dread on the present occa.
sion. But even if it were so, this was a popular Govern-
ment. The people desired an inquiry. Thee had a right
to the inquiry ; and on a subject where the people felt
so strongly, it was the duty of the Government to com-
ply with their wishes. He knew that it had become the
custt~om to address the Crown on such subjects. Per-
ha Gnovernment liked that better. But Addresses had
'"
nPee presented. to the Noble Duke at the head of the Govern_
most, Pr"mga consideration of their grievances. He considered
addresses as the signs of bad times, as symptoms of inis •
chiefs which it was the duty of Parliament to correct. There
might he some persons who held good the adage, " Ornnla bene

acta negro Marte agentur."—(Hear, (hear, and a laugh.)—He,
however, liked a something to be done by the Parliament of Eng-
land ; and it was to show that that Parliament still possessed
some power he was, among other reasons, anxious for the present
inquiry. He knew that the Government were engaged in inqui.
ries themselves. He applauded them for it ; but there were some
things to which he thought the inquisitorial powers of Parlia-
ment should solely be applied; and to which it was necessary that
power should be applied, in order to show that, as the Representa-
tives of a popular Government, they sympathised with the suffer.
ings, and felt for the wishes of the people. It was for these rea-
sons that he wished to apply the inquisitorial power which his
Sovereign had invested hint with, to an examination of the
causes of the distress ; and he therefore gave his full assent to
the motion now before their Lordships.—(Hear.)
Lord ELLENBO ROUGH agreed with the Noble Baron that
inquiries generally were best conducted by Parliament ; but he
thought the Noble Baron must be also well aware that there were
a great many things better done by the Government than by Par-
liament. The Government had not arrogated to themselves any
power. They had not shown any disposition to avoid the respon-
sibility of the measures they advised; but their objection to this
motion was, that it went to promise things which could not be
accomplished ; and that it must end,lif granted, in gross delusion,
to the people. The Noble Baron (Lord Holland) had truly stated
that there were a great number of opinions represented in the
Committee on the affairs of India; but then that Committee was
appointed to consider but one subject. The Committee
sought for row was intended to deal with many. The one
was to apply to facts—the other was to be occupied with
conjectures and opinions ; and although he had sat on many
Committees, he never recollected any, save one, in which
the inquiry into opinions produced any result. That inquiry was
conducted by the Noble Baron himself; and he must say that that
Noble Lord's inquiries on the subject of the opinions entertained
with respect to the Athanasian Creed, although not very bene-
ficial to the country, was yet attended with a success and a
triumphs which he had never expected to witness. His objection
to the Committee was, however, that every man Wilo entered it
would have a proposition for some change in the political condi.
tion of the country. He had taken the trouble to make a sum.
'nary of some of the subjects upon which Committees had been
sought for during the last nine months, and every one of which
he was confident would be brought before this Committee, if the
motion was agreed to. He found among them agricultural and
manufacturing distress, poor laws, vagrants, game laws, county
rates, exportation of machinery, combination laws, parish rates,
emigration, parochial settlements, friendly societies, and Irish
vagrants. These were but a portion of the subjects which the
range of the political economist would bring before the Com-
mittee, and the inquiries into which would, if carried into effect,
last longer than the life of the oldest individual among them.
This was not a 11. It had been proposed lately that every mem-
ber of a Committee should bring a well-informed friend along
with him to assist him in putting questions. Suppose then a
Committee of thirty-one Lords and thirty-one friends proposing
questions on all the subjects that he had mentioned, who could
venture to predict the termination of their inquiries ? Pamphlets
had been published on three of the subjects—Corn Laws, Cur-
rency, and the Poor Laws. They could not do less than examine
the writers of these pamphle- s first, and they were just thirty-
two in number during the last twelve months. On the Corn
Laws fifteen, on the Currency seven, and on the Poor Laws ten.
These persons must be examined; and as the Currency seemed
to be one of the principal objects of inquiry, he thought that
Mr. Tooke's pamphlet, called The Currency free from all
Mystery," would be a good thing to begin with. Considering as
he did, that the inquiry would only lead to delusion, and that
the agitation of the currency question in particular would tend
to disorganize the whole frame of that portion of the population
connected with agriculture, he would give it a decided negative.
He could not conclude without observing, that a motion of this
kind, brought on just 48 hours after such extensive reduc-
tions as had been announced by his Majesty's Government, was
peculiarly ungracious. Noble Lords who supported it could have
no hope that the inquiry would produce anything but mischief;
and he thought that such a motion, having no public object,
should be rejected by every Noble Lord who wished to preserve
the character and respectability of Parliament.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE protested against the language
of the Noble Lord with respect to Committees ; and declared his
opinion, that the Noble Lord, in his language respecting Com-
mittees, and in the expression of his opinion that Parliament did
not meet to inquire into the public grievances by Committees,
but to converse with each other on the subject, gave proofs of be-
ing a greater Radical Reformer than any Member of either
side of the House. He thought the theories of the Noble Lord
and the Noble Privy Seal would not be so much attended by the
consequences they stated, as by consequences totally destructive
of the constitutional power of the House; for, if he understood
their arguments at all, they meant this—that they were only to
go into Committees of Inquiry when all men were agreed on the
subject of the evil which was to be inquired into.—(Hear, hear,
and a laugh.)—They opposed the motion because they thought it
would lead to delusion. He supported it because he thought it
was in a practical form, and likely to lead to a practical purpose.
lle had opposed the motion of the Noble Earl (Stanhope) because
he thought it embraced too wide a field, and he stated so at the
time; but every one who knew the manly character of the Noble
Duke who brought forward the motion, must be sensible that
there was nothing lurking behind it which had not been openly
avowed ; and he approved of the motion still further, because he
thought the absence of all party feelings rendered the present
a time peculiarly favourable for the consideration of such subjects.
It had been said that they required stability in their institutions.
and not the changes which were contemplated by the motion,
Stability in what? Stability in the present wretched condition of
the poor ? Was there a man with a heart in his bosom who
wished the present wretched condition of the population
of the country to continue unaltered ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
He would take leave to trouble their Lordships on this subject
with a communication he had received from Dorsetshire—a
county not affected by any sudden changes, and therefore pre-
senting a better picture of the present state of the poor of this
country. In places free from those circumstances which produced
temporary prosperity and depression, the writer stated, that out
of twenty-four parishes, there were twelve in a similar situation.
That in each of these there were one-third more labourers than
the land could support. That these superabundant labourers
were supported by a little labour, and by a little relief. That the
middle-aged men, with their families, were employed at low
wages, and that the young and able-bodiedi were allowed Is. ed„
per week. The overseers justified this on the plea that they
wished to drive the young paupers from the parish; but the re-
stilt of it was, that Dorchester gaol was filled with young men
committed for petty offences; that the farmers giving a mini-
mum of wages were obliged to be content with a minimum of
labour; that the land was badly tilled; and that instead of the
young and able-bodied being employed, they lived in idleness,
while the old and infirm were compelled to close a life in labour.
The Noble Marquis then expressed a hope that Ministers would
still further reduce taxation, and by reducing the duty on sugar
increase the consumption. A very slight reduction formerly had
added one-fifth to the consumption. When it was recollected
that the consumption of each individual in England through
the year was only twenty-two and a half pounds, and in
Ireland only four and a half, it would be at once seen how
great an improvement might be produced, and how much
that consumption might be increased by a slight reduction
of the price. As a proof of this, he mentioned that Lord
Liverpool reduced the assessed taxes and the duties on
spirits in 1821., and the returns then shewed a revenue of
3,528,00/a while in 18'29, after all these reductions, the revenue
was 3,749,0004, being several hundred pounds greater after the
reduction. He recommended, therefore, still further reductions,
but he recommended them to be adopted with caution, and that
caution was to be obtained by inquiry. The Noble Marquis con.
eluded by expressing his determination to vote for the Commit.
tee, because he thought it could not fail to suggest something for
the general benefit.
The Duke of WELLINGTON concurred with the Noble
Marquis in the opinions he expressed respecting the practice of
Parliament in directing inquiries by means of Committees. This
was the practice, and Government were disposed to adhere to
it; but the Noble Marquis had omitted to state that it was also
the inviolable practice for a mover to state specifically the object
of his motion. When that practice was departed from, and
when he found each Noble Lord who took part in the debate
stating each a different object which they had in view by sup.
porting it, he certainly thought the Government not justified in
giving their consent. His Noble Friend, the mover of the Corn.
mittee, stated his intention to inquire into the state of the labour..
ing poor, and the manner in which they were affected by taxa-
tion. Now, it was well observed by his other Noble Friend, the
President of the Council, that there was not a single portion of
the Government which might not be brought under the consi-
deration of a Committee inquiring into these two subjects. In-
deed every Noble Lord who supported the motion seemed to
have a different object. He had counted twenty different im_
portant subjects which Noble Lords proposed to bring under the
consideration of the Committee, including even the question of
the management of private property. There were three or four
connected with the currency and the coinage—the silver stand-
ard and the gold standard; and was it to be supposed that they
did not intend to go into these questions, or that, if they did
not, that they had not some object to be obtained which was cal-
culated to affect the object of the Government ? It was said that
the Right Hon. Gentleman, who granted a M'.tion for a Corn.
mittee to inquire into the state of Ireland in the other House,
had opposed a motion of the same kind on another occasion.
That was not so. The motion alluded to was intended to apply
Poor Laws to Ireland, and as the Government was not prepared
to give Poor Laws to Ireland, he, as well as the Right Hon.
Gentlemen, had then resisted it on the part of the Government.
The motion of the Hon. Gentleman who brought forward the
subject the other evening was for a specific object, and, there-
fore, it had been granted. He thought the Noble Marquis had
much mistaken the nature of the character of his Noble Friend
(Lord Ellenborough), that Noble Lord stated his opinion of the
manner in which an inquiry of this kind could be conducted,
and the consequences which must flow from it; but the Noble
Marquis must have seen enough of his Noble Friend's conduct
on Committees, to be satisfied that he had always conducted
himself like a Minister who was anxious to do his duty, and to
bring the whole subject of inquiry under his consideration. A
Noble Lord who supported the Committee, had observed
that he did not think it could be expected that relief
should be given. If that were the case, why ap.
point the Committee. He agreed with that Noble
Lord, that no relief could be given. Ministers had,
in his opinion, stated the truth in the icing's Speech. They had
admitted there was distress. They declared it to be partial, and
they cautioned Parliament against the adoption of any sudden or
violent remedy. He repeated now, that he was thoroughly con-
vinced there was great distress in the country ; but that it was
not, and had not been general, and that it was gradually subsiding.
The Noble Duke then adverted to the large reduction of taxation
just announced, which had given satisfaction to many, and called
forth the praises of many of their Lordships. They had done no
more than their duty in making those reductions ; and if it had
been requisite to maintain taxation, instead of to diminish it, the
Government would have endeavoured to prevail on Parliament
to maintain it with just the same feelings they called upon Parlia-
ment to assist in relieving it. He believed that the objects of
the reduction had been happily chosen, and that they had selected
those articles which would take the smallest sum out of the
Treasury, and give the greatest relief to the people. It had been
stated that other taxes could be reduced. He would not then go
into the calculations which satisfied him that the Government
could go no further at present. He would only say, that they
were determined to reduce every unnecessary expence in every
department, hoping thereby to provide fresh resources for a dimi-
nution of taxation. The Noble Duke concluded by observing,
that if the motion had been one to inquire into the poor laws, it
would have been worthy of consideration; although, it should be
recollected, that they had two or three reports on the subject
already laid on their Lordships' table. It should be observed
too, that this was a subject on which Pitt, Fox, and Wyndham,
and the greatest men of the age, had failed to come to any satis-
factory conclusion, and that laws of so much importance, varying
as they did in every parish, could not possibly be touched with
any prospect of success, sinless with the greatest caution, and
after the most deliberate inquiry. This was not the time for that
inquiry. He would advise them to wait until the return of
prosperity, when they could apply themselves to the question
with greater attention—with less prejudiced minds, and a better
hope of satisfactory result.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl STANHOPE contended that the inquiry proposed by
his Noble Friend was one of paramount importance, and that no
reasons had been advanced why that inquiry ought to be refused.
The Noble Duke had done much in reducing taxation, but as no
practicable reduction could be of avail without some measure
which enabled the country to pay the taxes, that must neces-
sarily remain.
Tile Duke of WELLINGTON and the Earl of ELDON mutually
explained, but were not audible below the bar.
The Duke of RICHMOND in reply said, I never so much
regretted my want of experience in debate, my Lords, as at the
present moment ; for I cannot find parliamentary language suf-
ficiently strong to express the feelings of indignation which I
entertain at the speech of the Noble Baron, the President of the
Board of Controul If such a speech had been made out of doom,
I should have called it an atrocious libel upon the Committees of
this House—an atrocious libel upon Parliament—a libel so in-
flammatory in its nature—a libel so calculated in its character to
bring this House of Parliament into disrepute with the people
out of doors—in short, a libel altogether so mischievous as, in my
opinion, to call for a new enactment, if no law at present exists,
of sufficient force to protect Parliament from a repetition of it.
But, my Lords, if upon first hearing that speech I was surprised
and astounded, Iny utoniannent 50011 merged in the conviction

aS
that tome confusien of ideas h mead 'Lief ever the mind of
the Noble Baron ; and when he 'nly imagined himself to be
describing the Committees of the lv our Lordships' House, in
fact he was only throwing open to u he sligfts of the Cabinet,
and divulging to your Lordships the manners of office, and the
mode of proceeding in the Council Chamber of his Majesty's
Ministers. My Lords, lam well acquainted with the great and
commanding mind of the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's
Treasury ; and if provided with proper information, and better ad-
vised by thosewho are round about him, I know no man more able,
and no man more likely, to confer great benefits upon his country.
But, my Lords, in the whole course of this night's debate no man
has attempted by facts to refute the statement of overwhelming
distress. His ;Majesty's Ministers, one after another, have risen
to engage in this discussion ; but only to shrink from the con-
sideration of the real merits of this question, and to have recourse
moreover, to those old, hackneyed, and empty assertions of fac-
tious motives and of disguised designs upon Ministers and their
places, on the part of those who support my motion. And I take
this occasion to thank my Noble Relation (the Lord President of
the Council) for a speech which has been considered by many
Noble Lords who followed him in debate, as in matter and argu-
ment more like the speech of the seconder of my motion, than
that of a Minister in oppositionto it. The Noble Lord Privy
Seal has said that the distress arises from a general want of con-
fidence which any inquiry into its causes would, as he says, of
necessity aggravate. I say, what confidence can the people have P
What security can a starving population feel if Parliament re-
solves to abandon its duties, and openly declares its determina-
tion to permit no inquiry into the causes of their misery and
decay ? My Lords, I understood the Noble Duke who spoke
from the floor (Buckingham) to state that France, Switzerland,
and Italy, were, though so slightly taxed, now suffering con.
siderable distress. Of this I know nothing. I have not had, per-
haps, the same opportunities of acquiring information with the
Noble Duke; but the Noble Duke also stated, " that the United
States of America were in no better condition !! !" My Lords,
I hold in my hands a document, which, even at this late hour of
the night, I cannot resist quoting to your Lordships. It is the
speech of the President of the United States to Congress, at the
opening of the Session, and thus he addresses himself to
the representatives of the American people :—. The task
devolves upon me, under a provision of the Constitution,
to present to you as the Federal Legislature of Twenty-four
Sovereign States and TWELVE MILLIONS of HAPPY PEOPLE, a
view o I our affairs."—Mark, my Lords, " TWELVE MILLIONS of
HAPPY PEOPLE" I ! !—Would to God, my Lords, the King of
England, from among the whole Twenty Four Millions of his
British subjects, could be thought to possess " TWELVE MIL-
LIONS of HAPPY PEOPLE." For my Lords, how can men who
have hearts to feel, be happy, though not perhaps themselves
suffering from distress, surrounded by thousands and tens of
thousands starving upon twopence halfpenny per day P—Can a
man be happy in the midst of such distress, misery, and degra-
dation ?—My Lords, the first magistrate of the United States,
goes on to say, "In communicating with you for the first time
it is to me a source of unfeigned satisfaction, calling for mutual
gratulation and devout thanks to Providence, that we are at
Peace with all mankind, and that our country exhibits the most
CHEERING EVIDENCE Of GENERAL WELFARE and PROGRESSIVE
IMPROVEMENT." My Lords, in America, they give thanks to Pro-
vidence for the blessings they enjoy. In England Providence is
only permitted to bear the blame of the country's distress. Sure I
am the Noble Duke did not wish to misrepresent the state of Ame-
rica. Misinformed before, he will now, lam confident, admit
that he was in error. (No I from the Duke of Buckingham)
Then does the Noble Duke mean to say that the speech of the
First Magistrate of the United States to Congress, is entitled to
no more reliance than speeches which are made elsewhere ?
One word more for the Noble Duke. Admitting the severe
and growing distress of the county of Bucks, he has disco-
vered its origin in an unlooked for cause. Inundations of fresh
butter, (says he) from Holland, have all this dreadful distress at
least in Buckinghamshire to answer for. The new and unprece-
dented importations by stcami vessels of fresh butter from the
Netherlands, has altogether, says the Noble Duke, supplanted the
butter of the Vale of Aylesbury at the London breakfast tables
of the English nobility and gentry, and so ruined the whole county
of Bucks : But, my Lords, when such arguments as these are had
recourse to,there is I know no refutation so forcible and convincing
as simple facts. I have procured therefore ffirthis purpose the two
latest returns of the House of Commons upon the subject. The
first gives the quantity of butter imported from the Netherlands
in each of the three years ending the sth of January, as under-
stated :

cwts. qrs. lbs.
1826 160,018 0 12
1827 136;779 3 lb
1828 142,658 0 25
Shewing that the importation of the last year as compared with
the average of the two preceding years, manifests a diminution,
and not that OVERWHELMING increase. The second return gives
the value of foreign butter imported in each of four years ending
the sth of January, calculated at the official rates of valuation,
and is as follows :

1826 X 398,080 18 11
1827
1828 .......
1829
This return thews that so far from an overwhelming and swelling
importation of foreign butter, the importation was, with one
single exception, less in the last year than in any one year of the
period, which is the latest of any of which any return has been
made out. Thus the Noble Duke's best argument against my
motion (that at least which was founded upon butter) has alto-
gether melted away. The Noble Marquis, the Lord Lieutenant
of the county of Kent, has talked of " good sport attacking the
Administration ;" he has talked of Ultra-Tories, discontented
benches, and moderate Whigs—l know not under which head he
has classed the humble individual who is now addressing you.
But as I believe every man has a right to speak for himself, I will
tell that Noble Marquis that I belong to no theoretical party—l
belong to that party which has the welfare of the country most at
heart, be it which it may. I will call it the country's party,
and I will tell the Noble Marquis, that if he and other Noble
Lords, who have pursued the same line of argument in the
hope to deter me from doing my duty to my country, they
are much mistaken if they expect to succeed. I will not con.
descend even to reply to those charges of factious motives which
have been made against me for originating this motion. I will
be content to stand upon my character in this House and in the
country. I it was who brought forward this motion, and I have
stated my views upon it; if a factious spirit attaches to the mo-
tion in any shape, I alone am guilty of the crime, and not any of
my Noble Friends who have supported me. I included in my motion
" the effect of taxation on productive industry," because 1 wished
to go straightforward,—and to have no concealment in the back
ground; for can any man believe that if we had gone into a
Committee, without professing to make the eftct off axation upon
productive industry a part of our enquiries, we could in practice
have excluded it from discussion in that Committee? I ask for
an inquiry on behalf of the starving people of England. My
only object is their relief, and not any purpose of making an at_
tack upon his Majesty's Ministers. If I wished to make such an
attack, I would do it straightforward,—openly,—and honestly, by
a direct motion of censure upon the conduct of Government, and
would disdain the paltry resource of a side wind. But, my
Lords, I can assure you, upon my honour, that I have no desire
whatever to distress his Majesty's Ministers. I would gladly sup-
port the Noble Duke where I thought him in the right ;—but
where I deem the measures of Government to be wrong, I will
as fearlessly and as strenuously oppose him. My Lords, I know
not what may be the Parliamentary usage ;—but in civilized so-
ciety I do know that a man ought not to impute to another mo-
tives which in himself he would be ashamed to avow-
The House then divided—

Not Contents, Present 69
. Proxies 72
-141
Contents, Present 39
Proxies n

- 61

Majority SO
Adjourned at Half-past Two.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT).

Mr. Johnson brought up certain returns from the Office
of the Chief Secretary for Ireland.—Laid on the table.
111 r. SADLER presented a petition from the Mar-
chioness of Hertford against the Selby and Leeds Rail-road
Bill.—Referred to the Committee on the Bill.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, praying the revision
of the laws relative to the punishment of death.—Ordered
to be printed.
Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from the burgh
of Kirkaldy, against the East India Monopoly.—Referred
to the Committee on the Bill.
OPERATIVE WEAVERS.

Sir M. S. STEWART begged leave to present a pe-
tition from the operative weavers of Glasgow, praying for
some relief from this House from the sinking distress
under which they suffered. This petition was signed by
about 4,600 individuals ; and large as this number was,
he was informed that it composed but a very small por-
tion of the thousands that were now suffering the severest
privations from the extremely low rate of wages to
operative weavers in Glasgow. The petitioners averred,
that the average income of each family, according to
the strictest investigation, amounts only to about 35. 6d. of
clear money per week, or does not exceed 45., and that
after 96 hours of incessant labour." The petitioners at-
tribute their destitute condition to the rapid increase of
population, and the still more rapid increase of machi-
nery in Glasgow,—causes over which the Home had no
controul, and could not therefore be responsible for
their effects, heavy and afflictive as they in this instance
declared them to be, and it was very natural that the
petitioners in their wretchedness should " presume that in
the hands of this House rested the power to carry into
operation measures of relief for the existing distress, and
by efficient regulations prepare means of happiness and sub-
sistence to almost any amount of population." He sincerely
wished that be could feel convinced that it was in the
power of the House, to afford the asked-for relief, unless it
was by opening the vast markets of India and China to
the enterprise of their employers. But undoubtedly
these petitioners, and thousands of their fellow-
operatives, were enduring .in themselves and families
deep and heavy misery ; and he most earnestly of-
fered their well.drawn petition to the just and com-
passionate consideration of the House. He begged to take
this opportunity of saying, and he had much satisfaction in
doing so, which would prevent his trespassing on the time
of the House in the long interesting debate that was to be
continued that night, that, with the exception of the ope-
rative weavers (and that only made their case the harder),
lie had good reason to believe—and he bad taken much
pains to ascertain the facts from the best resources—that
the manufacturers of Glasgow and Paisley were in rather
a better condition than last year; and that small as profits
were, still they had improved, and were considered by
those best qualified to judge as still showing a tendency to
improve.—Ordered to lie on the table.
me. HUME supported the prayer of the petition ; but
he saw no hope for relief except by taking off taxes.—
Ordered to be printed.

Lord BlNGHAMpresented two petitions from Kil-
common (Ireland) against the Sub-letting and Vestry Acts.
—Laid on the table.

Colonel LUSHINGTON presented a petition from Car-
lisle, praying that the crime of forgery should not be
punished with death.
Lord BELFAST presented a petition from the mer-
chants of Belfast against the East India Monopoly.—Re-
ferred to the Committee on the Bill.

REFORM.

The Marquis of BLANDFORD presented a petition

from a certain parish in Norfolk, praying for a Reform in
Parliament.'..r.Laid on the table.
- The Notail.M.AnQuts also moved for a retutn of the
number of Voters for each Borough in Ireland.
Mr. ROSS (as we understood) said it would be impos-
sible to make such a return with any degree of accuracy.
Mr. BENETT thought otherwise, and he could see no
reason why the return could not be made.
Sir 3. NEWPORT considered that the return might
be in some degree imperfect, yet that it could be made,
and it was most desirable that it should be made.
Mr. HUME said that a similar motion had been made
in the month of May last year, for a return of the number
of persons entitled to vote for Members for Cities and Bo-
roughs in England.—The motion was then agreed to.