The Sun.
London, England, 1830-06-25 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.)

Mr. FITZGIBBON presented two petitions from
places in Ireland against the increase of taxation.
Mr. LITILETON presented a petition from
Ralph Stephenson, in the Staffordshire Potteries,
against the Commissioners of New Churches' Bill.
Mr. SCOTT presented a petition from the tallow
candle makers of Rozburghshire, agan.st the duty on
candles.

Mr. JOHN SMITH presented a petition from
certain Christians in Armagh, against their liability
to take certain oaths.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented several petitions
horn Ireland against any increase of taxation.

Sir GEORGE MURRAY laid on the table
copies of communirationi relative to Canada.

..51r. O'CONNELL postponed his motion relative
to the libel law, to Thursday, July 8.

MISERY OF IRELAND.

Mr. TRANT presented a petition from Sir Har-
court Lees, complaining of the agitation which was
still kept up in Ireland by the machinations of cer-
tain persons. A run had lately been made on the
Banks of Ireland, in consequence of these machina-
tions, the tranquillity of the country had been dis-
turbed, and the people seriously injured by a great
fall in the price of butter. The Hon. Member, in
presenting the petition, called upon the Hon. Mem-
ber for Clare to abstain from doing any thing which
might keep up agitation in Ireland, and which might
make the Catholic Emancipation Act less produc-
tive of good than its friends anticipated. lie had
always been one of those who had opposed the pass-

ing of that Act; but as it was passed and was now
the law, he would always exert I imself to make
operation 'beneficial. He corm] red the Hon. rind
Learned Member for Clare, by their common coun-
try, to exert himself in preserving the tranquillity of
Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL must disclaim the authority
of any individual in that House, and of the House
itself, to call him to account for any part of his con-
duct out of the House which had no reference to tin
House. For himself he must say, that he had
always exerted his influence to promote the tran-
quillity of Ireland. Whenever and wherever he had
influence, Whiteboyism had ceased, disturbance had
ceased, and peace had been restored. True, be
had exerted himself by constitutional means to
obtain the rights of the Catholics, and by con-
stitutional means, without any violence, they had
obtained all which they wanted. Since he had
been in the Hou-e he did not find much encou-
ragement to address it on the subject of Ire-
land. He had brought under its notice the sub-
letting Act and the Vestry Act, and had found only
apathy for what concerned Ireland. The Hon. and
Learned Member complained with some bitterness
of the apathy of the people of England on the
subject of Parliamentary Reform. Finding this apa-
thy, he thought he had a right to make use of the
constitutional means in his power to promote the
good of Ireland. He had convinced himself that a gold
currency would be as advantageous for Ireland as
England ; being conscientiously convinced of that,
he had called on the people of Ireland to obtain for
themselves a gold currency. The Hon. and Learned
Member referred to an expression of Mr. Shiers at
some public dinner, who had complained that the
manna of patronage fell on no Catholic head, and
said the complaint had been attributed to him. He
disclaimed it—he wanted no patronage from Go-
vernment—he had never sought it, though there
were some gentlemen at the Irish Bar who were
injured, because the Government would not give
them silk gowns while they passed over him.
Mr. DOHERTY rose principally to answer a
qnestion of the lion. Memberfor Dover, and, in reply
to that, would state that the Act for putting down
illegal and dangerous associations would continue in
force till after the next Session of Parliament. The
Hon. and Learned Member then referred to the con-
duct of the lion. Member for Clare; and while he
disclaimed any right to call him to account for his
conduct out of tha House, he did complain, and
he thought he had a right to complain, of a certain
letter addressed by the Hon. and Learned Member
for Clare to the people of Ireland, instead of his
standing up in that House, where be had aright to
express his opinions, to make them known.—
(Hear, hear.)—He complained of some expressions
in that letter that tended to anything rather than
to promote tranquillity.—(Hear, hear.)—He cow•
plained of the lion. and Learned Member using
such phrases, as a preface to tranquillity, as " war
to the knife."—(Hear.)--The conduct of the Hon.
and Learned Member reminded him of a maniac who
resolved to ruin the manager of a country theatre.
He said he would ruin him by one word, show his
popularity in the county-town, and convince the ma-
nager ssf his great power. On a benefit night, this
maniac, placing himself in a spot where he might
be quite safe, began to call out lustily, " Fire, fire:"
That one word was quite enough—tile theatre was
instantly in confusion—many suffered, indeed, by
the terror and the attempt to escape; but the
maniac was delighted with his power, with the ruin
of the manager, and the consternation of the
audience. It was not a drllicult thing for the Hon.
Member to show his popularity, and his power by
a cry of fire.—(Hear.)—The majority of the popu-
lation of Ireland ere to be roused against his Ma-
jesty's Ministers by the fiat of the Hon. Member,
who thought they were to be driven back from
their point by any individual who had the power to
produce a panic in the country. There was
nothing so easy—it was but to cry fire ! The Hon.
Member had addressed a letter to the people of Ire-
land, telling them that gold was better than paper
—that a sovereign was sure to be always worth
twenty shillings and it might be worth thirty shil-
lings; and telling them, therefore, always to demand
gold. The people had taken the alarm ; and what,
he asked, were likely to be the effects on the
country ? He called on the lion. and Learned
Member to recollect what was the condition of Ire-
land in 1821. He reminded him what was the
state of England in 1825, and he would perceive
what would be the consequence of his letter. No
longer ago than Saturday last, the people were in a
state of consternation. Their produce in the Water-
ford market fell three or four pounds in the hundred
—it fell from 30 to 40 per cent. in some instances
—the result of the panic that was produced by the
letter of the Hon. and Learned Member.—(Hear,
bear.) The lion. and Learned Member complained
of the apathy of the House with regard to the
people and the affairs of Ireland, but without any
reason. For himself, he felt from his heart for those
sufferings approaching almost to famine, which i
was perhaps impossible to avert; but he did no
_ _

think that the evils of famine could be remedied
by adding to them those of panic, confusion,
and anarchy. For his part he must call on the
Hon. Member to desist.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If
the taxation imposed on Ireland were wrong, let the
Hon. and Learned Member face the Ministers and

tell them so; let him meet them by arguments ;
and he did think there were arguments which might
be used—topics which might be feelingly urged to
:all on Ministers to reconsider this question : but
it was not right in an individual to throw all Ire-
land into agitation, because the conduct of the

-
Ministers was not approved of by that individual.
—(Hear, hear.)—Let not the country, in the name
of God, have war to the knife ; let it not be in-
volved in ruin and confusion, because one individual
was not satisfied. That was not right ; it was not
creditable either to that House or the country. The
Hun. Member for Clare had promised to do great
things for Ireland. What had he done ? In that

11m se he had done nothing. He complained, in

deed, that the House did not lend a patient atid a

willing ear to his addresses. Ile told the petition-
ers that their petitions were neglected; but he
would take the experience of the last twenty years
—he would refer to the many hours of patient in-
vestigation and hard attention of that House to the

atraiis of Ireland to refute the allegation. It was
one thing to be indifferent to the claims of Ireland
—it was another not blindly to follow the com-
mands of the Hon. and Learned i♦lember. He had

witnessed the state of Ireland with much anxiety
during the last few weeks he had been ix that

country ; there were tufferings which perhaps could
not be averted ; but he was sure that exciting alarm,
and provoking a panic, must aggravate thoe evils
it was the wish of all good men to try and avert.—
(Hear, hear.)
General GROSVENOR was of opinion, after
the statements which had been made, that it wtis
high time that the lion. and Learned and Catholic
Member should be observed.—(Cries of " Order !"
" Hear, hear," and loud chee:s.)
Mr. SPRING RICE rose to speak to order. Mr.
O'CoNNELL attempted to rise, but was kept down
by Mr. ; and considerable confusion existed
for a few moments, some Members cheering, and some
vociferating " Order !"

Mr. S. RICE WAS at length suffered to say that
there was one word, and only one word, used by
the Gallant 011icer which he thought it right to
take notice of, which, in fact, the House was bound,
he thought, to find fault with, as quite unparlia-
mentary. The non. and Gallant General had no
ri ht, since the law recognised no distinction, to call
any Member• a Protestant Member or a Catholic
Member. It was not parliamentary, and certainly it
would not be convenient. This Wag the first time,
he believed, that any such allusion had been made,
and he trusted that he did not interfere unnecessa-
rily. If they were not checked in time, they would
lead to serious inconvenience, and in time to great
confusion.

The SPEAKER said the House, and no Mem-
ber of it more than the Gallant Officer, must feel
obliged to the lion, Member for calling the Gallant

General to order. The Hon. and Gallant °Rice,
must feel the impropriety of making any distinction,among the Members of. that House, since the law
had once settled that there are to be no distinctions.
General GROSVENOR bowed to the authority
of the Chair, and to the call to order made by the
Hon. Member in such good humour. He had only
used the word as a means of distinction. There
were so many Hen. and Learned Members that he
knew not how to describe him. He was glad that
the Hon. Member for Dover had made these ob-
servations in his place. The House had been ex-
posed to considerable inconvenience from the num-
ber of petitions presented to the House from Ireland
against the proposed scheme of taxation, and all
these pettions apparently proceeded from the bureau
of the Hon. and Learned Member. The letter al-
ready alluded to was signed Daniel O'Connell, and
that he presumed was the same Hon. Member. The
Hon. Member referred to the petitions from Ireland,
and described the apathy of the House as discredit-
able to it; but, in his opinion, those petitions and
their consequences were discreditable to nobody but
the Hon. and Learned Member.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to make a few ob-
servations. When he did not reflect on the pri-
leges of the House, and he did not claim the benefit
of them, he must again say, that the House had no
right to take cognizance of what he had done out of
that House. He did not wish, however, by a total
silence, to appear to be discourteous to the House,
though he had no wish not to show that towards
the Ilion. and Learned Member for Kilkenny; he
had neither courtesy nor approbation to show for
his observation. The Hon. and Learned Member
had alluded to a letter of his, and to the expres-
sion in it of " war to the knife ;" but the Hon.
and Learned Member, with his forensic habits, had
applied to one letter of his what was in another.
The phrase, " war to the knife," was contained in
the letter he had written on the subject of the new
taxation, and not in the letter written to the Water-
ford paper. 'That taxation, the Hon. Member might
be assured, would not be borne by the people of
Ireland ; and, as he had failed in the House to make
the Minister sensible of its impropriety, he could
only inform the Irish people of it. If the Hon.
Member approved of that taxation—and, if he dial
not, he would not be suffered to remain on the Mini-
sterial benches, he would hear of it from one end of
Ireland to the other. He felt that Ireland could not
bear additional taxation at present, and he had
called on the people to petition against it, and he
always would call on them to petition against any
measure so mischievous. The Hon. and Learned
Member had attacked him for doing so with many
theatrical gestures, and with all the dexterity of his
forensic habits; but he did not understand what the
Hon. Member charged him with except instigating
the people to petition. lie had done so, and, if it
were necessary, he would do so again. The Hon.
Gentleman complained of the injurious tendency of
the letter, and expressed regret that it had been
published ; but what would be the consequence of
this attack ? Why, that the letter would be pub-
lished in every paper in the kingdom, and a greater
publicity given by the means taken to suppress it.
He had been taunted with writingletterc to the people
of Ireland, but at the moment he was so taunted, was
he not also reminded of the existence of that most
unconstitutional law, made by the power of a Lord
Lieutenant's Proclamation, which rendered it im-
possible for any man publicly to address his fellow
citizens, unless through the medium of a letter ?
He had taken that course. He did it at his peril,
and he knew the consequences. He was unable to
deliver his sentiments in any other manner. It
did not surprise him that those who made other at-
tacks on hint were cheered, and that his defence was
received in silence. He knew he was no favourite
with any party. He had never supported any. He
had not supported the Oligarchy of that House, and
both sides, of course, united to applaud those who
opposed him. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny
(Doherty) was a man of high legal attainments and
extensive experience, but there were men who had
out-talented him in the sit of abusing. There were
men not like the Member for Kilkenny, but men
totally destitute of learning or of a knowledge of
law, who had risen to the highest eminence—who,

if they had not quite reached the ermine, had yet
attained the highest subordinate station by no other
merit than the unceasing application of abuse to
him. He would have attacks still from such men—
to be sure he would.—(A laugh.)—ln spite of
them and all such attacks, he was determined, how-
ever to follow that course which his judgment
pointed out to him to be right and expedient. [A
silence, marked and extraordinary, prevailed on both
sides of the House during the whole of the Learned
Member's address.]
Lord HO\VICK characterised the course recom-
mended by the Hon. Member for Clare as the most
mischievous tktt could be devised for Ireland and

its people. He would call it wantonly mischievous,
but that he believed the Hon. Member was not fully
aware of the consequences it would produce.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN deprecated the con-
tinuance of discussions on subjects already disposed
of, and entreated the Hon. Member for Dover

(errant) not to press the printing of a petition so
mischievous in the principle it details.
Mr. TItANT said it was not usual to print such
petitions, and be merely moved it be laid on the table.

GREEK TREATY.
Sir R. PEEL brought up copies of the Corre-
spondence between the Plenipotentiaries of the
Great Powers and the Ottoman Porte. They were
laid on the table.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir R. PEEL having moved the Order of the
Day for resuming the adjourned debate on the Court
of Chancery,
Mr. BARING hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would state spe-
cifically what course he proposed to adopt with re-
spect to the business before the House. It was ex-
tremely inconvenient for those who were interested

hi the Bills which might be brought on after the
termination of this discussion, to go away without
knowing whether they could come on that evening;
and yet it was not safe, when discussions on im-
portant questions were taken at two or three in the

morning, to presume on the lateness of the tcrmi

-•••••
nation of any debate preventing their being brought
on. He wished to know at whet hour the Right
Hon. Gentleman would take the debate on the Beer

Bill, or if he intended to carry it forward another
stage that night ?

The CIIkNCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said the principle of the Bill and of its clauses had
been already decided on in very full Houses, and he
certainly intended to go on with it that evening.
Such had been the understanding, he believed, in
the House on a former evening.
Mr. MABERLY said he had a clause, differing
altogether from any of those disposed of, on which
he wished to take the sense of the House. The
interests of full 70,000 persons were at stake on
the question, and he therefore entreated the Right
Hon. Gentleman to postpone it, and enable the
matter to be fairly considered. If the Right Hon.
Gentleman did not yield to the wishes of the
people on that point, and persisted in taking im-
portant business at late and unseasonable hours, he
(Mr. Moberly) should certainly feel himself justified
in putting a stop altogether to the business of that
House at such hours. He had the power and he
NV:IS determined to use it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEBUER
said the question of the principle of the Bill, and
of the clause of the Hon. Member for Kent (Sir E.
Enaichbull), had already been fully discussed, and
disposed of in a House of upwards of 250 Mem-
bers. The clause of the Hon. Member for Abing-
don (Mr. Moberly) was precisely similar hr prin-
ciple, and he could not consent to postpone the
further stage beyond that evening.
MABERLY denied that the clause was the
same. The clause of the Hon. Member for Kent
torched the principle of the Bill—his did not touch
that principle.

After some further conversation,
BROUGHAN said, that to talk of what

they might do at two o'clock in the morning with
respect to the Beer Bill, when they were going lo
engage in a discussion on the Court of Chancery,
was just about as rational as to speculate on what
they might do with their estates if the Court of
Chancery should he reformed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
finally said, that he must wait the termination of the
forthcoming debate before he made any further de-
claration on the subject.
Sir C. \VETIIERELL postponed until to--nor-
row his motion on ex-officio informations (we believe).
COURT OF CHANCERY—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Order of the Day for resuming this Debate
having been read,
Mr. J. WILLIAMS rose to state the grounds on
which he felt it his duty to dissent from the propo-
sition of the Hon. and Learned Member for Plymp-
ton. The necessity of a new Judge in the Court
of Chancery was urged in the several reports which
the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the
best mode of facilitating time business of that Court
had made. Mr. Bell had also advocated it on the
ground that the appellate jurisdiction of the Lord
Chancellor prevented his bestowing sufficient time
on the proceedings in equity. The necessity of an
additional Judge was besides asserted by Mr. Bicker-
steam, and the Vice-Chancellor—and, indeed, was
too plain to be controverted. The Hon.!and Learned
Gentleman then referred to several details descrip-
tive of the state of business in the Court of Chan-
cery. According to the statement made by the late
Lord Gifford, in the year 1810, it appeared 1,700
bills were filed in the Court of Chancery; in the
year 1823, there were 2,400, making an increase of
one-fourth in thirteen years. It was an historical
fact, that in the middle of last century, the whole
sum which stood in the name of the Chancery Ac-
comptant• General, was under 2,000,0001. sterling,
while at present it was nearly 40,000,0001.
The arrears of causes necessarily kept pace with
the delay of business ; in 1827, there was
an arrear of 314 ; in 1828, of 345 ; in 1829,
of 348 ; and in the present year, 298. The
number of commissions of bankrupt had doubled
between the years 1814 and 1824—there
were 2,000 bankrupt petitions ; so that the
business not only increased in a rapid ratio upon
the Court, but the evidence of the learned persons
most conversant with it showed that the judicial
power of the Court of Chancery was inadequate to
the performance of the business of the Court. He
knew, indeed, that the number of " matters and
things," to use the phrase of the law, had been in
many instances conquered by tile efforts of indi-
vidual Judges. The Vice-Chancellor had, since
Christmas, sat upon 16 holydaya, and got through a
heap of business. The Master of the Rolls had
fortunately recovered his health, and by his con-
tinual application to business also done great service.
But were these accidental circumstances to be
reckoned by the opposers of this Bill? Did not
the effort of these eminent Judges imply pressure,
and did not pressure imply haste ? Surely this
almost super-human effort was not to be reckoned
the measure of the general business of the Court
of Chancery, Judges ought not to be compelled
to devote themselves to such an arduous and inde-
fatigable application of their mental and physical
strength, but ought rather to have some leisure to
progress with the general scientific and legal ac-
quirements of the times : this was impossible, if
they were to devote themselves to the degree of
labour which Judges sometimes employed in the
public service. His Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr.
Fergusson) had complained of this Bill, because it
did not go the entire length of removing time evil;
as if, because every thing was not done, something
was not done in the march of impro7ement. He
was as sensible as his Hon.and Learned Friend, that
the Masters and Registrars' offices were susceptible
of improvement : he knew that much remained to he
done in restricting the prolixity of written forms, and
preventing individuals from having a direct interest in
time:shape offees in prolonging them. Still thisßill made
some improvement, though it did not reform every
thing, and on that account he was decidedly in fa-
vour of a fourth Judge. This was desirable, not
only for the relief of the suitors who were actually
within the Court of Chancery, but from those who
were deterred from seeking equity there, by the
arrears of business at present accumulating. It was
a remarkable fact, that in the same degree as quick-
ness of justice became palpable, so came an increased
number of suitors. In the years 1814, 1815, and
1816, there were under the different heads 4,746
cases. In 1827, 1828, and 1829, in consequence of
increased effoits to perform tile business, there had
been an augmentation of all the heads of business
in the Court, from the number of 4,746 to 6,740.
But he repeated that it was not by fits and starts,
dependent upon the physical exertion of any parti-
cular Judge, that the public business ought to be
performed in a Court of Equity. A Judge ought
not to be left plodding like a horse in a mill, in in-
cessant drudgery ; he should have time to enlarge
his sphere of information. Public rather than pri-
vate considerations required that he should have this
opportunity, and not be driven to unremitting efforts
in Court, which would necessarily impede his means
of acquiring important general information. These
were the reasons which induced him to hail the Bill
as an improvement which it was desirable to use.
It had been said that the measures proposed by
Government were likely to have the effect of mak-
ing time Lord Chancellor " Vacuil rex solos in aulti.
Sir C. WETHERELL—" Vacua rex iEolus

Mr. J. WILLIAMS thanked the Learned Gen-
tleman for his correction, but did not see how the
proposed measure could have any such effect. II•
did not despair of seeing Es good effect resulting
from them, because they all belonged to a uniform
plan. He should therefore give them his support,
because he thought they were, as far as they went,
calculated to effect much good.
Mr. R. GRANT said that it was only by a vio-
lent effort of the mind that he was enabled to
come to the conviction that the speech of the Hon.
Member who had last spoken was in favour of the

measures proposed by Government.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman talked about reforms, but
they were not such reforms as were suited to the

._
present legal crisis, and did not follow up with pro-
per effect the speech from the throne. When be
(Mr. Grant) said that the proposed measures could
not claim his support, he said so with pain, pro-
posed, as they were, by his highly-gifted friend, the
Solicitor-General. He acknowledged that his
Learned Friend had undertaken an arduous task ;
but that arduous task became easy if it were to be
accomplished by the means proposed to the House.
The measure of the lion. Member for Plympton,
intelligible in itself, sufficiently expressed his (Mr.
Grant's) views on the subject. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman did not say that the proposed
changes were unnecessary, but only that they ought
not to be the prelude of reform, but the result of
inquiry. He (Mr. Grant) conceived that the pre,-
posed measure was professedly founded, on the alle-
gation of present necessity ; that the accumulation of
business in Chancery had at length arrived at such a
pitch as could not be endured,end that no remedy could
be found for the evil but the present one. Notwith-
standing this reason of present necessity, the House
had been obliged to listen to a whole history of the
Court of Chancery for two centuries back up to the
present time. It had been said that two centuries

ago, a motion was made for the appointment of two
additional Judges. He certainly had no objection
to travel back to that distant period; but he usked
where was the necessity of performing that circuite
ous route, when it was stated that the whole cas.

was founded on a necessity arising out of the present
times ? Well, a light had at length broken upon
the Government, and the only remedy proposed for
the evils disclosed, was by increasing the number of
the Judges. But he asked, why did not this light
break upon Government, not two centuries, but two
twelvemonths ago ? The specific proposition for
the appointment of two additional Judges was made
two years ago by the Hon. Member for Durham,.
The Hon. Member (Mr. Williams) had endeavoured
weigh the House down by authority, He had

' ieferred to the commission of 1801 arid 1825. The
first commission, however, was appointed to inquire
• into the amount of fees in the Court of Chancery's
and the last commission had no reference to the sub-
ject before the House. The necessity of an add
tional Judge was indeed suggested to that commis"
sion, aed Mr. Bickersteth made many important
suggestions. That Learned Gentleman particularly
Observed on the importance of separating the whole
of the bankrupt and tithe cases from the juriedic'
tion of the Court of Chancery. The Hon. Member
had told the House to reflect on the evidence
of Mr. Bell and others. Many of those per
sons to whom he referred, had changed their
opinions; which opinion was to be relied on?
—Their first, or that which might be supposed
to be the consequence of maturer judgment?
Were they to be guided by the evidence of the Via"
Chancellor;who was unfavourable to the nomination
of a new Judge ? or by the evidence of Mr. Bell,
who, though he formerly gave a contrary opinions
was now unfavourable to such an appointment also?
His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Solicitor-Generals
had said distinctly that there was no necessity for
the appointment of a new Judge. What had hap-
pened since to alter his opinion ? He mentioned
these changes of opinion on the subject, as allusion
had been made to the changes which had taken
place in the opinions of Hon. Friends of his in re-
gard to it. He could quote the opinion given also
by his Learned Friend, the Attorney-General, at the
period to which he referred, and he was glad to find
so high an authority with him. The Learned Gen-
demur' then said, that he did not contend that the
Court of Chancery did not require improvement,
but that he believed that an increase in the number
of Judges was the least likely means of producing
it. After that, though these Learned Gentlemen
had changed their opinion since, he (Mr. Grant) did
not much fear that he and those who thought with
him would be overborne by the opinions expressed
by the Hon. Gentlemau. The fact was, that in very
high quarters a change of opinion would seem to
have taken place. A measure similar to this was
brought forward in the House of Lords about 12
months ago, and it was afterwards dropped. Why
was not a specific case made out for its re-introduc-
tion now ? In introducing the former measure, the
Lord Chancellor, it appeared, was not content with
legislative reform, but he also proceeded to practical
reform, and he suggested to the Master of the Rolls
to change the hearing constitution of his Court.
The Master of the Rolls did so, he changed the
hours of hearing from the evening to the morn-
ing, and the consequence of that measure was
to create two distinct bars in equitable jurisdictions.
That was done as soon as it was suggested to
him by the Master of the Rolls, but the concurrent
measure, the proposition for a new Judge, which
was then before the House, was dropped. Thu
Master of the Rolls proceeded at once with prompti-
tude, and he (Mr. Grant) would say, with fortitude,
considering the state in which his health was, to
carry into effect the recommendation of the Lord
Chancellor. This practical reform auxiliary to the
legislative measure was immediately effected—by a
mere demonstration the town had been carried—
and they were now taxing their wits to carry by main
assault the remaining fort while the grand object had
been attained. Not only was that done by the Master
• of the Rolls, but the Vice-Chancellor proceeded to sit
in vacation and hear bankrupt petitions. When all
that had been done, where was the necessity for
this extraordinary effort ? He believed that it was
agreed on all hands that this extraordinary effort in
the appointment of a new Judge was resorted to in
consequence of the extraordinary arrear of business
which had accumulated. Now, if this extraordinary
arrear of business had been subdued, where was the
necessity of this extraordinary effort ? His propo-
sition was, that where the extraordinary anear of
business had been subdued, this extraordinary ex-
ertion was no longer required to put it down, and
that we might go on with the common force of our
existing Courts, without appointing any new addi-
tional Judge. The Hon. Member proceeded to con"
tend, that the arrears having been got rid of, by'
the exertions of the Master of the Rolls and the
Vice-Chancellor, the equity business could be carried
on by the present Judges, that there no neces-
sity whatever for the appointment of an additional
Judge. The arreara had been subdued; and if that
were the case, the principle of necessity, which was
put forward as justifying the appointment of the
new Judge, no longer existed. The Solicitor-
General had defended the appointment amongst
other grounds, upon this, that it would tend to ac-
celerate the business in the Registrar's and Master's
office. What had fallen from his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Rippon, on that point, was well worthy
of attention, He had said, that they had no mea-
sure here to meet the real difficulties of the case;
but a measure to which, if they acceeded, they must
in a degree augment the difficulties of the case. If
his Hon. Friend's premises on that head were just,
there certainly was no resisting his conclusions. If
it (veils a fact that both in the Registrar's office
and in the Master's office they had a fall amount of
business even to suffocation, and that no room was
left for accelerating it, it was obviously just to
conclude that this measure, instead of remedy-
ing the evil, would only tend to aggravate it.
Supposing that the creating of an additional Judge
might have the effect of sending causes eighteen '
months sooner into the subordinate offices, no time
would be saved by having them sooner in the Re-
gistrar's or Master's office, but instead ofgaining time,
was more than, probable that time would be lost.
—What would the Right Hon. Baronet (the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department), whose
reforms were of an essentially different character
from this, say to such a measure as this ? This
measure, if passed, would certainly introduce a
great deal of bustle, and a great show of reform.
Something would be done to accelerate causes until
they had got into the Master's Court, where the
great cause of delay still remaining, the evil would
remain, after all this show and bustle, completely '
unredressed. The Hon. Gentleman had said that
his (Mr. Grattan's) Hon. Friend (the Member for
Rippon) had been in error as to the amount of
causes from the Master's office which had been
sent down for further directions in the Vice-Chane
cellot's Court. It was true that his Hon. Friend
was in error as to the number, and that instead of
four there were sixteen. His Hon. Friend had re-
ferred to the point in consequence of a remark which
was made by the Hon. Member for Wootton
Bassett ; and though the fact was that the number
of causes was sixteen, the Hon. Gentleman was in
error if he supposed that those causes had been set
down for six terms. There were only three for the
time that his Hon. Friend had stated.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—But they will
be set down for six terms before they are heard.
Mr. R. GRANT proceeded to observe that as he
did not arrogate to himself the prophetic spirit which
his lion, and Learned Friend seemed to possess, he
could not bring himself to think that this measure
would be attended by the mighty reform which his
Learned Friend predicted would flow from it. What
was the progress which had been made in the pre-
sent year in hearing Chancery causes ? From Hi-
lary term up to the present time, as had been shown
by his lion. Friend (the Member for Plympton),
1,061 cases had been reduced to the extent of 348,
leaving 713 remaining to be disposed of. That was
a strong argument against those who contended that )
the Court of Chancery, as at present constituted, '
was not able to get through the equity business.—
He (Mr. Grant) understood that since the present
measure had come under discussion in that House,
there had been 83 cases, in addition to the 348
already mentioned, disposed of. If the present Judges
went on at that rate, the business would be alto-
gether disposed of; and should an additional Judge
be appointed, he would have nothing to do; he
would be,as the Hon. Member for Plympton had said,
" Vacua Rex, sofas in aula."
But there were measures accompany this to meet
the evils which arose from delays in the Registrar's
and in the Muster's office. But those evils were
not to be remedied by half measures. The Hon,
arid Learned Gentleman relied upon those meaiurei •

for prw:
Dishing,
were hit
in place
increase(
should b
and for t.
be made
say that
remain&

were to

annuatio

the regi
increase

interest

salaries NI

charges,
be paid t
rest, they
sibly con
satisfacti

finding t
laties in!

jection ti
liters to
they Nver
if they wi

to work c
His lion
• already s
office nev

upon sal
was a ba(

to work
the busin
be prope
thought
• in the M;
respect f(
of that of
they cou
Master's
evils of w
the Cotu
Douse tc
on this s
Gentlem►
Commiss
cree, the
Master's

occurred,
made an
delay pro
The Hon
John COI
delays in
mode in
the Maste
made by
expence
The Mast
paid by ss►
would be
cellor, at
the fees, a]
that fund,
ferring to
office, and
constituti(
the eviden
would 'el(
Bell.
in Novem
toaster to
it was not
ncunced t

who moll
that here
before thi
would be
appointme
to send t

new case,
That it shoe
questions wl

inissioners,
brought foi
host of co
next propo:
appeals she
in the firs
sinners, for
under the I
appeal to tli
already beer
power of u
plied to ex

esen C

one,
318
Ages
alto.

'udge
1; hu
said,

meet
trar's
were
Hon,
iurei

for producing beneficial effects in the way of dimi-
nishing the delay and enormous expences which
were hitherto experienced in those offices, because
in place of the enormous fees here given, and which
►ncreased by length of the proceedings, fixed salaries
should be given to the registrars and their clerks,
and for all other fees which they receive they should
be made to account. It was quite fair and right to
say that they should be paid by salaries, but if the
remainder of the fees, after defraying their salaries
were to be formed into a fund, out of which super-
annuation and other anew inces were to be made to
the registrars, there would be no check upon the
increase of that fund, for it would obviously be their
interest to increase it, seeing that not only their
salaries would be defrayed out of it, but that other
charges, such as superannuation allowances, would
be paid to them out of it. It would be their inte-
rest, therefore, to have that fund as large as it pos-
sibly could be ; that circumstance diminished the
satisfaction which he should otherwise have felt at

finding that these officers were to be paid by sa-
laries instead of by f eeq. There was another ob-
jection to this measure, that it compelled those or-
ficers to work at business only during:office hours. If
they were compelled to work within office hours, and
if they were deprived of fees which might induce them
to work out of office time, business must accumulate.

His Hon. Friend (the Member for Rippon) had
• already stated that the business in the Registrar's
office never would be well and regularly performed
upon salaries, not because the principle of salaries

Was a bad one, but because if persons were expected
to work only for six hours, and in that period to do
the business of twelve hours, the business could not
he properly done, and it must accumulate. He
thought that great improvement might be effected
-• in the Master's office. Feeling as he did, the highest
'respect for the gentleman who discharged the duties
of that office, he must at the same time say, that if
they could remove the evils which existed in the
Master's office, they would remove the greatest
evils of which they had to complain with respect to
the Court of Chancery. He need only refer the
House to the high authority of Master Stephen
on this subject to prove the fact. That Learned
Gentleman, in his evidence before the Chancery
Commissioners, after stating that between the de-
cree, the order for reference to the Master, and the
Master's final report, a great lapse of time constantly
occurred, expressed his belief that the complaints
made against the Court of Chancery with regard to
delay proceeded in a great degree fro.n that source.
The Hon. Gentleman referred to a speech of Sir
John Copley in 1827, in which he stated that the
delays in cases in Chancery were attributable to the
mode in which proceedings were carried on before
the Master. He did not see that any provision was
made by this measure for the diminution of the
expence of proceedings in the Master's office.
The Masters were, it was true, henceforth to be
paidby salaries, but their clerks,who did the business;
would be paid by the Treasurer of the Lord Chan-
cellor, at his pleasure, out of the fund formed from
the fees, and as it would be their interest to augment
that fund, the evil would remain unredressed. Re-
ferring to the delays which occurred in the Master's
office, and which were unavoidable from the present
constitution of it, the Hon. Gentleman appealed to
the evidence of Mr. Stephen on the subject. He
would select as an instance the case of Silcox and
Bell. Mr. Stephen stated that that case commenced
in November, 1802, that it was referred to the
master to report upon it in February, 1803, and that
it was not until August, 1823, that the Ceurt pro-
liminess(' the final decree, awarding to the claimants,
who amounted to 115, the sum of 3601. each. So
that here there was a delay of twenty-one years
before this case was finally decided. Now what
would be the effect of the present measure for the
appointment of a new Judge ? The effect would he
to send the unfortunate suitors eighteen months
sooner into the Master's office, where they would
be subjectsd to the harassing and vexatious delay he
had described. He would say that they must mount
to the source, that they must examine the heart of
the evil, and they would then see that the remedy
did not consist in the appointment of a new Judge.
The Hon. Gentleman said that they could not do
without an additional Judge in the Court of Chan-
eery, and, at the same time, he was for transferring
a great portion of the present business of that court
to the Courts of Common Law. So that he
would have an additional Judge appointed,
but he would deprive him of half his trade.—
The report of the Law Commissioners recom-
mended the transfer of a great portion of the
functions of the Equity Courts to the Courts of
Common Law. That was a recommendation of
which equity lawyers, generally speaking, under-
rated the value, while, he must say, that common
law lawyers thought very differently of it. The
Ilona Gentleman quoted the opinion of Lord Eldon,
as to the propriety of relieving the Lord Chancellor
of appeal business in the Lords, so that he might
be able to attend to business in his own Court ; and
he contended that it would be desirable that the
Lord Chancellor should be enabled to attend more
closely to his original functions in his own Court.—
The only mode to enable him to attend to his ori-
ginal business, consisted in relieving him from the
load of appeal business which he had to do; and the
effect of this new measure would be to increase the
number of appeals by the half.—(i-lear.) In order
to be an efficient Judge, it was necessary that the
Lord Chancellor should attend closely to the prac-
tice of his original jurisdiction. It was the opinion
of the most eminent persons, and the fist authorities
on the subject, that the Lord Chancellor should be
to a great extent restrained to his original jurisdic-
tion, so that he might be able, as the vulgar phrase
had it, "to keep his hand in." If that were neces-
sary in the instance of a Lord Chancellor taken
from the Equity Bar, and who must be supposed
to be well acquainted with the practice of the
Court, it was particularly so in the case of a Lord
Chancellor who came from a Court of Common
Law. He thought that in reference to the im-
portant question how far the jurisdiction in bank-
rupt cases could be separated from the great sea',
the Law Commissioners had acquitted themselves
in the least satisfactory manner. Now that was a
most important question, and it involved a point of
jurisdiction of the utmost importance in a commer-
cial country like this. He (Mr. Grant) would not
propose to remove from the Great Seal all jurisdic-
tion in bankrupt cases. He did not mean to say
that 'such a plan would not in the end answer, his
opinion was that it would : but it would be accom-
panied by great difficulties, and eminent persons held
different opinions upon it. He thought, however,
that an arrangement might be adopted, which, while
it would not prevent altogether the interposition of
the Court of Chancery in bankrupt cases, would
have the effect of taking from the jurisdiction of the
Great Seal four.fiftlis of the bankrupt cases with
which the Court of Chancery at present interfered.
fie did not mean to cast any imputation upon those
learned persons the Bankrupt Commissioners, and
he wished at the same time that no inference to
their credit should be drawn from his silence on
that point. His plan with regard to bankrupt cases
was this—he would, in the first instance, limit the
appeals from the Commissioners of Bankrupts to the
Court of Chancery to real appeals. He would next
propose that in all such cases, the Court should
only hear the case as it had been heard before the
Commissioners, and should not be at liberty to travel
into new facts, and into the hearing of a complete
new case, as was the practice at present, and
That it should be prevented from entering upon
questions which had not been started before the Com-
missioners, but which were now for the first time
brought forward amidst a battle carried on by a
host of confused and tumultuous affidavits. His
next proposition, was, that in all cases in which
appeals should be allowed, such cases should have,
in the first instance, gone before the Commis-
sioners, for it was preposterous, as was the case
under the present system, that cases should go by
appeal to the Court above, two-thirds of which had
already been heard there in the first instance. The
power of appeal he thought ought only to be ap-
plied to extreme cases, He should only trouble

• the House with one quotation more. If by thegt
i arrangements he should be able to reduce the busi-
ness in bankruptcy to one-fifth of its present amount.
lie should be able to meet all the present difficultie,
of the Court of Chancery. He understood that the
Lord Chancellor sat, upon the average, about 30
days upon appeals, and about 25 days upon bus:nes,
connected with bankruptcy. Now if he could reduce
die business in bankruptcy one-fifth, he should be
able to take 20 from the 25 days which the Lon!
Chancellor now devoted to bankruptcy, and to add
them to the. 30 which lie now gave up to appeals.
The Lord Chancellor would thus have 50 clear days
in every year for appeals; and he had the opinion of
the Lord Chancellor that if he could devote that
time annually to appeals, he should soon be able to
get rid of the arrears which at present clogged and
impeded his progress.—[Here the Hon. Member
read an extract from a speech of the Lord Chan-
cellor to that effect.)—A great deal had been said
in the course of this debate about the impropriety of
ascribing motives to particular individuals. Now he
was far from ascribing improper motives to anybody.
He was content with stating facts as he found
them; and must say that a measure like the present
Bill for amending the practice of the Courts of
Equity formed a singular and not a very happy con-
trast to the legal reforms which had been introduced
by the Right Hou. Secretary for the Home Depart.
ment. He requested his Right Hon. Friend to
postpone the further consideration of it, until lie
(Sir R. Peel) could himself look into the whole
system of equity law. When his Right Hon. Friend
had done that, he (Mr. R. Grant) was sure that he
would withdraw his immature and ill-digested mea-
sure, which, even if it were carried, would leave us
still at the threshold of any real reform of the Court
of Chancery.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DO\VDESWELL next addressed the
House, but in a tone of voice which was nearly in-
audible in the gallery. We understood him to be
vindicating the conduct of the Masters of the Court
of Chancery._
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR did not find fault with the
Masters of the Court of Chancery, but with the
system of their offices, which he considered a nui-
sance to the country.—(Hear.)—Why, he would
ask, were public functionaries of their great judicial
importance to decide upon all cases in a private
room ? If that question could he discussed when
this measure was regularly brought before the
House, be would propose an amendment, which
should bring it fairly under their consideration. He
had not expected that he should that night have
had occasion to enter into a discussion of the mode
in which business was conducted in the Master's
Office. The real question, in his opinion, regarding
the Masters in Chancery was simply this—ought
they to be paid by salary or by fees ? He thought
that they ought to be paid by salary; for if men of
respectability could not be induced to perform their
duty by a regard to their characters, he was sure
that they would not be induced to perform
it by any dirty fees which might be thrown
into their pockets.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
The House had now, once more a Bill before it for
the appointment of an additional Judge in the Court
of Chancery, without having before it a single reason
for making any such appointment. His Hon. and
Learned Friend, the Solicitor-General, in the course
of his acute and able speech—and he gladly gave to
that speech the credit which it merited—seemed to
imply that it was quite a hardship to introduce into
this debate all the objections which had been made
for the last 200 years against the Court of Chancery,
and had more than insinuated that by pursuing such
a course Hon. Members were derogating from the
dignity of the High Court of Chancery. lie (Mr.
M. A. Taylor) denied that this was the case. Quite
the reverse; it was the High Court of Chancery,
which, by its system of expense and delay, was de-
rogatine• from its own dignity.—(Loud cries of hear.)
—The Hon. Member was proceeding to illustrate his
argument upon this point, when he was interrupted
by the loud tone in which three or four Members I
were conversing. Turning round to them, he said ,

that he knew that the subject which he was dis-
cussing was a dry subject—perhaps a painful one :
certainly it was both a dry and a painful subject to
him, for he had now been discussing it for more than
one-and-twenty years.—(Hear.)—Resuming his
argument, he contended that he had done nothing
to detract from the respect due to the Court of Chan-
cery: all that he had done was this—when he had
seen a nuisance, he had thought it necessary to have it
abated.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—On what principle,
he would ask, had the Court of Chancery, or those
who presided over it, a right to complain of the
objections which had been urged against it ? He
called upon the House to mark the whole tenour of
the proceedings respecting it. For one-and-twenty
years that Court had been complained of. What
redress had been devised for such a grievance in that
time ? The House of Lords had brought in a Bill,
which had afterwards passed the House of Com-
mons, appointing the Vice-Chancellor as an addi-
tional Judge in the Court of Chancery. That Bill
was opposed by Mr. Canning and other gentlemen
of great talent and influence in Parliament, not
on the ground that the Court of Chancery
did not want assistance, but on account of
the nature of the appointment of the new Judge.
There was a division upon it in that House,
and the division turned upon his motion, and not
upon the question whether aVice-Chancellor should
be appointed, but whether an additional Judge was
not wanted in cases of bankruptcy. Sir Samuel
Romilly was of the same opinion with himself, that
such a Judge was wanted in bankruptcy; and so
was Mr. Canning. Indeed, in no instance had he
ever recognized the principle of an additional Judge
being wanted in the Court of Chancery. In the va-
rious motions which he had made upon this subject,
lie had moved that there should be additional force
given to that Court by separating from it the busi-
ness in bankruptcy, by appointing another Speaker
for the House of Lords, by a commission, regularly
sitting with the Lord Chancellor at the head of it,
to regulate all appeals to the House of Lords, and
so on. The motion which he had submitted to the
House in the year 1828, which the Government of
that day opposed, and which he lost only by some
40 odd vutes, was to this effect-4' That it appears
to this House, from the papers laid on the table, as
well as from the report of the Commissioners ap-
pointed to inquire into the practice of the High
Court of Chancery, that notwithstanding the 4Sta-
blishment of the office of Vice-Chancellor in 1813,
further steps are necessary to advance the general
interest of suitors in equity, to provide for the more
prompt decision of cases, and to enable the Court
of Chancery effectually to discharge the important
duties connected with its jurisdiction." He bad on
that occasion proposed to make the Lord Chancellor
a Judge of appeal in equity, and the occupier of the
woolsack in the House of Lords. He wished to make
a real Court of Appeal from the High Court of
Chancery. He had maintained that it was quite ab-
surd and ridiculous to say that there was such a
Court of Appeal now : he had said " that it was an
appeal from a Judge in a tie-wig in Lincoln's-inn—
hall to the same Judge in a full bottom wig in the
House of Lords,with a snoring Bishop perhaps on one
side, and a Scotch Peer on the other, wishing him
and the cause together at the devil."—(Hear, and
laughter.)—He should like to know on what prin-
ciple this Bill stood now. In the year 1828 the
pressure on the Court of Chancery was great. It
was worth their while to consider whether it had
increased since. Figures could not be disputed;
and he would therefore refer to them rather than to
any hypothetical argument of his own. It appeared
from papers on the table of the House, that on the
first day of Hilary Term, 1830; there stood on the
paper of the Lord Chancellor, of re-hearings and
appeals, 97; before the Vice-Chancellor, there stood
of causes 397; of pleas and demurrers, 9 ; of ex-
cept;ons and further directions, 103. Before the
Master of the Rolls there stood, of re-hearings, 3;
of exceptions and further directions, 111 ; and of
causes, 351—making a total in the three Courts at
die commencement of last Hilary Term of 1,071.
On the first day of Easter, 1830, there stood on
the paper of the Lord Chancellor, of re-hearings and

appeals, not 97, but 50 ; before the Vicc-Chancellor,
of causes, exceptions, and further directions, 336,
snd of pleas and demurrers, 11; and before the Mas-
ser of the Rolls, causes, exceptions, and further di-
rections, 316; the whole amounting in the three
Courts to 722; whereas on the first day of the pre-
ceding Hilary Term they amounted 1,071 : so
;hat in the courte of that one term there was a
decrease of no less a number than 349. On the
,first day of Trinity Term, 1830, there stood on
the paper of the Lord Chancellor, of re-hearings
and appeals, 96; before the Vice-Chancellor of
causes, exceptions, and further directions, 362 ;
and before the Master of the Rolls, 307; amounting
in the whole to 768. So that there had been an in-
crease of only 40 in the last term. Since that time
the Master of the Rolls had disposed of 80 cases.
In 1828, there was an arrear of 258 cases in bank-
ruptcy-,-at this time there was not an arrear of one.
He should think that this was demonstration suffi-
cient that the arrear of business was fast decreasing.
What, then, would this fourth Judge, if he should
be appointed, have to do ?—(Hear.)—The Master
of the Rolls was now an efficient Judge in the Court
of Chancery—efficient, not only from his high cha-
racter, great ability, vast erudition, and unvaried
promptitude, but also from the great exertions which
he had recently made.—(Cheers.)—Though he was
riot called upon to -sit in a morning, he had volunta-
rily imposed that duty upon himself;. he had formed
a third court of equity, and had left nothing undone
which human ingenuity could execute.—(Hear.)—
The Lord Chancellor had likewise got down the
arrear of business in this Court. The Vice-Chan-
cellor had executed his duty to perfection.—( Cheers.)
And he (Mr. M. A. Taylor) believed that if the
sessions of the Court lasted one month longer, there
would be no arrears except in appeals before the Lord
Chancellor.—(Hcar.)—lf this fourth Judge were to
be appointed for the purpose of relieving the Lord
Chancellor from his duties in his own Courts, he
must say that, even upon that ground, he should
object to his appointment. He thought that it would
be better to let the Lord Chancellor sit in his own
Court, and to relieve him from his duties in the
House of Lords, than to recur to this additional Judge.
Without dwelling further on the observations of his
Hon. and Learned Friend, he would only ask the
House whether it was aware of the situation in
which suitors of Chancery were placed. If any
man from invidious motives filed a bill against
another, his first object would be to lengthen his
bill to the the utmost; for it could not be too gene-
rally known that before the defendant's answer could
be put in, the plaintiff's bill must be taken off the
file, which sometimes could not be done witliout in-
curling an expence of GO/. or 701. \Vas that an
evil or was it not ?—(Hear, hear.)—lf it were an
evil, was there any remedy for it in the Bill on time
table ?—(A cry of " hear" from the Solicitor-Gene-
ral.)—He hailed that cheer as an admission that this
evil was remedied. If it were, he would take it as
an omen that further amendments were in store
for the country. He would venture to say, that 28
out of every 30 barristers practising in the Court of
Chancery, were opposed to the measure before
the House. It was impossible that the Bill
could pass with the opinion of the public, and with-
out that it would be worthless.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said it was impossible
that things could remain as they were, and the ques-
tion then was, whether the measures before the
House would effect the saving of time, and the re-
duction of costs. If he could bring himself to think
that they would, they should have his ready and
hearty co-operation. His opinion, however, was
the other way, and in that opinion he was forti-
fied by the declarations of the most eminent
lawyer of the present day, its situation conferred
eminence,—he meant Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst.
He would state to the House what fell from
that Noble and Learned Individual upon the occasion
of his bringing in a Bill for regulating and improv-
ing the practice of the Court of Chancery, when he
occupied a seat in that House. If he might use the
expression, he would convict the Noble and Learned
Lord en his own evidence, and show that the Bill
was unnecessary. He stated that many recommen-
dations had proceeded from the Commissioners,
which were, in his opinion, abundantly sufficient to
remove the crying evils of the Court of Chancery.
He then, acting upon the suggestions of the Corn-
missioners, proceeded to describe certain objects
which should be effected. In the first place, he
said, " it was desirable to make the subpoena in-
telligible, in order that the defendant might know
what he was called upon to answer." Now he
(Mr. Harvey) would ask the Solicitor-General,
whether there was a word of difference between the
subpama of a century ago, and that served upon a
defendant that morning ? There was not a syllable
of difference. The' next point which Lord Lynd-
hurst proposed was, " to accelerate the putting in
of the answer to the defendant, by doing away with
the intricate forms which prevented a plaintiff from
bringing a defendant into contempt." He asked the
Solicitor-General whether a single step had been
taken towards effecting that object ? Time Noble
and Learned Lord also, with great integrity and
disinterestedness, had stated that much of the time
of the Court was consumed, as perhaps the time of
that House, was by long and unconnected speeches,
and he proposed as a remedy what might with great
convenience be adopted in that House, particularly
upon the question before them, that only two
Counsel should speak at each side. He asked the
Solicitor-General whether that wholesome proposi-
tion had found its way practically into Court. On
the contrary, he had recently heard twelve Learned
Nictnbers of the profession address the Court on the
question whether the verdict of eleven Jurymen was
equal to the verdict of twelve. The next proposi-
tion of the Learned Lord was, to remedy the system
of rotation. He asked any Learned Member of
the House whether any regulation had been in-
troduced upon that subject, and whether the in-
troduction of one would not be highly favourable to
time advancement of business, And especially of the
junior members of the profession ? That point
had been prominently suggested and enforced by
the Noble and Learned Lord. His Lordship also
suggested, as a means of saving time, that the Mas-
ters in Chancery should no longer be the passive
Ministerial agents through which inferior business
was administered, but that they should rise into im-
portance by acting the part and assuming the re-
sponsibility of Judges, and dischaeging their functions
in a manner corresponding with their acknowledged
learning and great emoluments. It was part of his
Lordship's plan, that the ten masters should be
masters of their business. Nothing, however, had
been done upon that point. Lord Lyndhurst fur-
ther suggested that there should be, in matters of
bankruptcy, an intermediate Cou: t of appeal, con-
stituted of seven Commissioners, to determine in

the first instance whether there was any ground of
appeal. By this means four-fifths of the causes
which found their way into the Lord Chancellor's
paper would be prevented from appearing there.
His Lordship further suggested, as a means of re-
ducing the number of vexatious appeals, that no ap-
peal should come before the Court which had not
the sanction of two Counsel. This was a whole-
some, but it had been found an impracticable regu-
lation. After Lord Lyndhurst had stated these pro-
positions to the House, he observed, " that the

Vice-Chancellor's Court needed no alteration ; and
dint no new Court of equity was wanted ; but he
hoped that the measures which he had recommended
in conformity with the recommendations of the Com-
missioners would cause the existing arrears of 109

causes to disappear from the Court of Chancery.
If, after those plans had been carried into execution,
further remedies should be required, they might be
adopted." It was notorious that the plan of Lord
Lyndhurst had not been tried, and therefore the
Solicitor-General had no right to come forwatd
with fresh remedies. Why should the House be
called upon to appoint a fifth equity Judge, when
only two out of the four already existing were in
full play ? Why not make all four work ? If they
were to appoint two or three or more Judges, it
would be of no use, while the system remained the
same, The Hon. Member for Durham had said

that 28 out of SO of the ("banter), barristers were
opposed to the Bill. He believed that their opposi-
tion was founded upon an apprehension that
their emoluments would be diminished by the esta-
blishment of a new Court. Now that there were only
three Courts, the Counsel took briefs in every case
in every Court ; but if there were a fourth Court,
they would find it necessary to confine their practice
to one or two Courts. So far the arrangement
would be advantageous to suitors. But how came
it, he would ask, that causes in Chancery were not
sooner decided ? Why, they were condemned to
that living tomb, from which there was no resur-
rection,—they were allowed to slumber in the ten
mausoleums in Southampton-buildings.—(Great
laughter.)—There were three stages in a Chancery
suit —first, from the time of its birth till it came
into Court ; next, its stay in the Court; and then
its itinerancy to the Master's office, and its vagrancy
there.—(Laughter.)—Then the cause was to be
spoken to—motion made, part heard—exceptions—
re-hearing—and, in short, every species of delay
which ingenuity could suggest or money could pur-
chase. He knew that he could not invest a dry
subject of this nature with such features as would
render it entertaining to a popular assembly; but
there was one point which he was sure would com-
mand the general attention of the House, and it was
the simple fact, that there was metallic property
locked up in that Court, which was more than equal
to two-thirds of the currency of the country. No
less than 40,000,0001. was so locked up, besides an
immense quantity of real property. For his own
part he would go every length to effect a compre-
hensive alteration in the system; but he saw in the
present measures nothing that approximated to a
useful reform, but, on the contrary, something that
would tend to delay a reform of that kind. He
could not conceive how it required an Act of Par-
liament to regulate the Registrar's office. What
was the Registrar? He was an officer who sat,
like their Hon. officers in that House, and took
down the decrees given by the Chancellor. Now
he held in his hand a decretal order—not a final de-
cree, for he believed it would be a very difficult mat-
ter for him to produce a document of that kind.—
(A laugh.)—This decretal order was for referring
certain accounts relative to the estate from the
Chancellor to the Master. It was borne to the
grave of the Master in 1825, and he did not know
whether any epitaph had been yet written on it.—
(Laughter.)—Now, looking at that decretal order,
he thought it would be a great improvement, if the
Registrar, instead of being paid for every word
which he had forced into the document, had been
paid, on the contrary, for his brevity. He under-
stood that, both with respect to the Registrar's bill
and the Master's bill, the fees out of which they
were both paid were to be retained. He knew that
that system tended to save the suitor's time (and
God forbid that he should under-rate that point),
but still he objected to the retention of such an ex-
pense. He would propose that they should be paid
by separate salaries, equally large as any sum they
might hope to derive from fees, payable on their
making their report.
• The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, as we under-
stood, intimated that the subject was Under con-
sideration.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY—Such was the use of
discussion; when he was informed that this object
was in contemplation, it not only softened down his
opposition, but would probably secure his support.
If it were intended to take this course, then his ob-
servations should be directed simply to the question
of the Judgeship. The appointment of a new Judge
turned on one plain practical question. Would
four Judges, presiding over causes in equity, be
practically sufficient to transact the business ? In
one sense he would say yes, in another, no. If the
system of the Court were suffered to remain as it
was, then he would contend that fire or six Judges
could not perform the business; but if they altered
the equity jurisdiction, then he thought that four
Judges would be peifectly adequate for the purpose.
Sir R. PEEL thought the time had come when
they were called upon to act rather than inquire.—
Hear.)—They had had great abundance of inquiry,
but a lamentable lack of practical measures. Now,
however, that practical measures were introduced,
they were told that they ought to inquire again.
If they adopted that course, their proceedings
would be very similar to those complained of in
the Court of Chancery, It was 15 years since this
cause was set down for bearing. We refused to
decide it. We sent it to the Master—that is, the
Commissioners. Hearings, re-hearings, and mo-
tions followed, but still there was no decision.—
There
was the first voluminous report of the Com-
missioners—and three years ago another appeared,
one half of which occupied .569 pages. By the
measure before the House, three of were pro-
posed to be effected.- One was to diminish the

time before which a hearing could be obtained;—
another was to lessen the delay which occurred in
drawing up the decree; and the third object was to
remove from the Master in Chancery all those mo-
tives for delay which, he believed unjustly, were
imputed to that officer. He alluded to the profits
which delays in different stages of a cause were
supposed to create. Such were' the three measures
now proposed. lint gentlemen called on Ministers
to take a different course; they said, " We do not
reject your bills; but we are anxious for prelimi-
nary inquiry." Why, there had surely been in-
quiry enough already. To come down on the 24th
of June, looking► to the long arrears of business in
the Court of Chancery, and to demand farther
inquiry, appeared to him to be nothing mere nor
less than a solemn mockery. Instead of proceed-
ing with inquiry, he was anxious that they should
attempt some remedy for the evil, although
it might fall short of absolute perfection, and
might not meet the wishes of those who wanted
a more extensive and complete reform. He would
here inquire whether the business of the Court of
Chancery had so increased as to warrant an altera•
tion of this kind.? In answering this question, he
would found his comparison on what had occurred
at a very late period. He would take the years
1827, 1828, and 1820, and compare them with
1814, 1815, and 1816, which immediately followed
the appointment of the Vice-Chancellor. In those

three years there were 4,801 causes of all descrip-
tions set down for hearing. In 1827, 1828, and
1829, 6,772 causes were set down for hearing,
being au increase of the actual business of the
Court of Chancery to the amount of 1,971 causes,
in the three last years, as compared with the three
years ending in December, 1816. This he thought
proved that additional aid was necessary for the sa-
tisfactory transaction of the business. He would
next consider what was the arrear of business in the
Court of Chancery during the last four years. What,
each of those years, on a given day, had been the
number of causes standing on the rolls of that Court,
ready for hearing, but which the Court was unable
to hear? In 1827, on the first seal before Easter
Term, there were 742 cases in arrear; in 1828,
there were 588; in 1829, there were 853; and in
1830, on the same day, the first seal before Easter

Term, there were 655 causes in arrear. In other
words, there were parties anxiously praying to have
their cases heard, but it was not in the power of the
Court to hear them; and, at the end of the term,
655 causes were left undecided. When he made
this statement be was sure that there must be a
general feeling in the House as to the necessity of
making some alteration in the system. The Vice-
Chancellor was proceeding yesterday, the last day
on which he sat, with causes that had been entered
on his paper in January and February, 1829. Some
causes had been set down for further directions in
Easter Term, 1830. How were those cases situated

which were thus set down for hearing ?1 Why, they
stood at the bottom of a list of 265 causes, which
must be cleared off before tbose furth:r diree,

tions set down in Easter Term, 1830, could
be heard. He was quite sure that, taking one
case with another, the delay in Chancery was
not less than a year and a quarter, though
every thing might be ready for proceeding. Fif-
teen months must elapse, in cases affecting the
property of orphans or widows, before their causes

deittld lie heard. These facts in themselves consti-
tuted a sufficient reason to induce the House te
apply some remedy as speedily as possible. The
question was, whether there were not objections to
the remedy proposed ; namely, the appointment o
an additiOnal Judge, which overbore the advantage•
anticipated from such an alteration ? He was, in
the first instance, met with a preliminary objection
of a personal nature, which was, that in 1828 a mo-
tion similar to the present was made, and he had
opposed it. Now the fact was, as his Hon. Friend
(Mr. M. A. Taylor) had stated, no motion for a
fourth Judge was made in 1828. 11is Hon. Friend
at that time moved for a separation of the bankruptcy
jurisdiction from Chancery. But Government alone
did not oppose that proposition. The Hon, and
Learned Gentleman, then Member. for \Yinchilsea,
(Mr. Brougham) opposed it, and expressed a strong
opinion that the time had riot arrived when such a
general proposition could be entertained. He (Sir
R. Peel) at that period, wisfied for some temporary
arrangement by which the arrear of business in Chan-
cery might be kept down. He, however, depre-
cated the custom of referring to former speeches;
and he would claim for himself on that occasion, end
on all others, a perfect right to decide, under exist-
ing circumstances, as to what course it might be
best to pursue.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, at the
time referred to, oppose the extension of the num-
ber of the Judges, nor could he, for the motion of his
Hon. Friend was of a different nature. The first
objection to the appointment of a new Judge was,
that the arrear of business was daily diminishing,
and therefore that a fourth Judge was not necessary
The Hon. and Learned Member for Kircudbright,
whose vote he relied on, declared that he would
support the measure if it could be shown that
the arrears were not diMinished. Now he could
readily prove that they were not reduced. There
were on the Vice-Chancellor's list, on the Ist day
of Trinity Term, 353 causes: 13 causes had since
been disposed of, and thirty-two had been since en-
tered. In the Rolls' Court on the first day of
Trinity term, there were 305 causes in arrear; fifty
causes had since been disposed of by the Master of
the Roils, and seventy new causes had been entered.
Here certainly there was any thing but a diminution
of arrears. Now, he should like to know why they
should always depend on the continuance of the
health of those who filled judicial situations. He
feared that the continued permanency of efforts to
get through a vast deal of business was often at-
tended with mischievous effects. He doubted much
the propriety of taxing to the utmost the abilities
and labours of men in legal or of situations. It
was unwise to expect from Ministers of the Crown,
or from judicial functionaries, application to business
for fifteen or sixteen hours a-day. Such a course
prevented them from acquiring those general attain-
ments, the possession of which was very important.
Another objection to the appointment of a new
Judge was, that it would increase the number of
appeals; and allusion was made, in support of that
argument, to the Vice-Chancellor's Court; but he
would contend that the benefit derived from the for-
mation of that Court, greatly overbalanced any in-
convenience to which it gave rise. It was next said
that the appointment of an additional Judge would
degrade the Lord Chancellor—that it would convert
him into a Jack Rugby. A speech of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, in 1813, was such an answer
to his observations respecting a Chancellor's ordi-
nary, a Chancellor's deputy, and a Jack Rugby, in
1830, that he (Sir It. Peel) did wish that he had
so able a speech on his side. Then the question
came to this,—was not this a case for the adoption
of the present measure in the absence of any other ?
Let some other be proposed, let there be some
counter-proposition; but if there be none, let not
the house prevent Ministers from submitting this
measure of imperfect indeed, but practical reform,
because it either did not go the full length, or be-
cause there was no other counter-proposition than a
second indefinite inquiry. His views were in favour
of gradual reform of the Court of Chancery; those
reforms would facilitate further reforms, and diminish
in the mean time the arrears of the Court of Chan-
cery. He hoped that the House would not permit
a preliminary motion to interfere with this measure;
and he should now more, as an amendment, " that
the order of the day for the second reading of the
Bill for an additional Judge in the Court of Chan-
cery be now read."

Mr. BROUGHAM began by cuing, that he
should endeavour to state succinctly and plainly
his sentiments upon this important question. The
object of his Hon. and Learned Friend's motion was
to bring this question to the test of inquiry, by pro-
posing an inquiry into this important measure fur
the reform of the Court of Chancery. A plausible
objection had been raised against this inquiry, by
alleging that inquiries had already taken place. But
since the inquiry of 1811, and since the inquiry of
1824, new circumstances had occurred, new facts
had arisen : there had been a change in the Court
and in the state of things, and therefore, in spite of
those inquiries, and of the bulky volumes of reports
which had been held up by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man Ivith a view of casting ridicule upon and dis-
crediting inquiry, enough had occurred since to alter
the case entirely, and at all events to induce the
House to investigate, before they rushed heed-
lessly into the first proposition that had neon made
for Chancery reform, and the only one that had
proceeded from the Lord Chancellor, in redemption
of the pledge he had given in 1827, on accepting the '
Great Seal, when, on the faith of his pledge, he
asked the House of Lords to give him time. The
pledge had been solemnly given in these remarkable
words—" Give me but a little time ; this is the first
season, this is the first Session ; give me but time,
and in the face of Parliament, of the country, of the
suitors, and of the practitioners of the Court, I pro-
mise, in the next Session of Parliament, that I will
mature and perfect a measure, which shall secure"
(he quoted his Noble and Learned Friend's own
words), " shall secure the despatch of all Chancery
business, regularly, faithfully, and accurately." The
Noble and Learned Lord had had not one, but three
Sessions, and his pledge was in the act of being ful-
filled. In redemption of his pledge, in fulfilment of his
promise, no reform had been excogitated by him, no
changes had been deliberated upon, there had been
no manifestation of those beautiful talents of his,
which had been so loudly eulogized by the Hon.
Member for Durham ; there had been no bendieg
of the understanding with all the freshness of a man
young in years, and still younger in his hitdi
office, except some changes made in a dark corner
of the Court, by which certain persons were to be
remunerated not by fees, but by a fixed salary,
whether they did their duty or not.—(llcar.)
There had been no changes in the essential
part of the Court, in what was the very sink
of delay, the very storehouse of abuses, All that the
Lord Chancellor proposed was this--," Favour me by
appointing another journeyman Judge, in order that
I may do nothing, and be enabled to hold the Great
Seal, and receive the emoluments of my office, with-
out executing the duties thereunto belonging.",,el
(Loud cries of " Hear.")—He (Nlr. B,rc,ugham)l
was under these circumstances ;.ailed upon, for he,
too, had given a pledge when the Noble and
Learned Lord had assumed his office; he (Mr.
Brougham) had thought he could trust to the powers
of the Noble and Learned Lord, to his industry, to.
his sense of duty, and at al! events to.his ambition,
and that these afforded sufficient security that he
would be an active and diligent, certainly not an
indolent Judge, making the woolsack, as it was the
highest post of professional emolument—not a bed
for repose and slumber, but as it had been made by
his learned predecessors before him, a place of duty,
a place of judgment, a place where the business of
suitors was alone attended to. He (Air. Brougham)
confessed lie had s.iffered some disappointment; but
it would be his own fault if he added to the mistake
into which he had been betrayed that of supplying
the deficiencies of the Noble and Learned Lord, by
voting away the money of the people of England to
pay another deputy.—(Gear, hear.)—As to the ar-
rears, of which so touch had been said, there were
positively none ; it was a delusion; it was a mere fal-

lacy ; it was a " Midsummer Night's Dream," quite

es baseless, but not half tee entertaining. There
were not so many arrears in the Chancery Courts as
the Court of King's Bench, or even the Court of Ex-
chequer, that delicious spot which, at this end of the
Session, and at this hour of the morning (half-past
twelve), it was delightful to think of—that blessed
&ace of rest, where no business is known but that
of taking salary ;—where attention is never taxed,
Cor scarcely an argument occurred to interrupt the
serenity of its stillness;—where a Judge can be
caught sitting as seldom vs a partridge ; for no
,00ner is he down than he is up again--(Laughter)
—where no change is known--no difference of
times or seasons—except that of wearing a
red cloak at one time, and a doublet with-
out fur at another: he could prove by a
parity of reasoning that even the Court of Exche-
quer was overwhelmed with the pressure of busi-
ness and arrears which they could not get up.—
(A laugh.)—There had been an entry of no less
than 15 revenue causes in the space of a fortnight ;
the Court had tried only ten, and could not keep
down this heavy arrear of business, although the.
[ion. and Learned Attorney-General and the lion.
and Learned Solicitor-General knew how the reve-
nue business bad been reduced the last year or two.
—(A laugh.)—ln that blessed place of rest there
were arrears, although the business of the revenue
exhibited a descending series, and would probably
reach zero, unless it became a negative quantity, and
the Court did, not merely nothing, but worse than
nothing. But he had been told by his lion, and
Learned Friend, his successor in the borough of
Winchelsea (Mr. Williams), whose speed in run-
ri:ng away from abuses when they were found was
as remarkable as his zear in finding them, but who
seemed now to be tired of attacking them, that im-
pediments were thrown in the way of this measure.
His Hon. and Learned Friend and himself had
surely changed sides since he (Mr. Brougham) was
Member for Winchelsea ;. for he (Mr. Williams)
stated that all.his opposition was founded in cruelty
as well as sophistry; that we ought not to tax
judicial persons beyond their powers; that this
diminution of the arrears wall merely temporary
and transient, owing entirely to the extraordinary
exertions of two equity Judges; that was, the extra-
ordinary exertions of the Master of the Rolls in sit-
ting after breakfast instead of after dinner—sitting
six hours instead of something less than four, and
devoting these two hours to heavy business instead
of disporting himself.--(A laugh.)—He agreed
with his lion, and Learned Friend, that it was of
importance that men of liberal minds should not be
taxed like galley-slaves. He should be the first man
to lift his voice in favour of a measure which should
afford to the great seal or the deputy opportunities
to enjoy needful relaxation and repose. But
would not the Vice-Chancellor laugh to scorn
any one who should commiserate him as a per.
son too hardly worked, and as incapable of keeping
down the arrears of his Court ? Surely the Vice-
Chancellor bore no marks in his person of excess of
labour. With respect to his Noble and Learned
Friend, the Lord Chancellor, he (Mr. Brougham)
thought he saw an arch look on his face, when he
was told that lie was supposed to be overwhelmed wit h
official duties, and was an object of compassion to
the idlers of the metropolis, as if incessantly sur-
rounded with musty bills, or buried in the dirty re-
cesses of his library.—(A laugh.)—Gentlemen
might laugh, but this was no matter of jest; the
gist of the argument was as to the necessity of Anew
Judge: the answer to this was, that there were
enough Judges already. 'rile reply to this was,
" You are killing them with work, and giving them
no time for recreation ;" the rejoinder to this was,
" These persons have their recreation, they are not
over-worked, they are objects of envy, not of com-
passion," and they would laugh to scorn any one
who should tell them to their face what was said io
their absence.—(Hear, hear.)--These were facts and
arguments; no jests; the ridicule attending them
was the fault of those who conjured up these base-
less visions, these Pucks and Robin Gooctfellotos,
instead of reason and sound argument. The Lord
Chancellor said " appoint me a permanent Judge."
This was just as if, when it was difficult to get a
load up a hill, we were not content to borrow is
horse, but must buy one and keep him all the days
of his life, when broken-winded or worn out. It
was useless to say, " Oh, but we have got to the
top of the hill; two excellent horses have dragged
us three-quarters of a mile, and there they sit smiling
on the top of the ascent." " Ah," it was said in
reply, " but there may be another ascent for what
we know, and these two horses are very much
fatigued." This question was not important in
itself only, it had ramifications which made it more
important still. It was vain to imagine, how great
soever might be the abuses of the Court of Chan-
cery, arid the mischiefs those abuses entailed,
that if a remedy were applied, and it were made
the most perfect tribunal that the wit of num
could devrse,—if the proposition of the honour-
able arid Learned Member for Winchelsea, and
for drawing back, as he properly termed it, to the
Courts of Common Law, a part of the business ef
the Chancery,—if that great reform, or revolution,
or restoration, rather, of the Court of Chancery,
were to be accomplished,—still there linnet be busi-
ness for such a Court : as long as there were trusts,
and infants, and guardians to be watched,—to say
nothing of executors, because much of the Court's
jurisdiction as to legacies found its way to the Com-
mon Law Courts,--ebut matters of account and ad-
ministration, as long as these existed it was a vair.
imagination to suppose that the Court of Chancery
coulst
is
the idtaoi
t‘filepo,t:lietteenor
sl,ticihgetehahs
jaeetsut(tihtai omee
sph,eoi
gxrt
10:
theinc e tbt:o.
tealFd;ttio.roiie;s thesai profession
otheroi twas f
prac
shoal be held by a Ju ,tgeot'sit)ersrteacttiolyn of t
competentthat C o Court
fill the office. Then was it possible for him (Mr.
Brougham) to regard, without feelings of jealousy
and re,pugnanco, a measure of which he saw that
the consequence—not immediate, for he did not
pledge himself so precisely to time that a person
might say, " there, the day has arrived, and your
prophecy is not fulfilled ;" but the natural and in-
evitable tendency would be, to convert the office, of
Lord Chancellor into a judicial sinecure. He .did
not say that he would not hear causes, but they
would ho appeals only. He would be a mere Judge
of appeals, and would cease to be what he was in-
tended to be by the Constitution—the head of a pro-
fession of which he ought to be the ornament. A Judge
who was only a Judge of appeals was doubtless an ho-
nourable Judge; but would a Lord Chancellor posses*
any authority if he were a mere Judge of appeals
No; lie would be a Judge without the authority of a
Judge; decisionsin subordinate Courts would be vainly
appealed from, and the Rouse of Lords would lose
its authority. How could it be supposed that las
would ever be able to grapple with the body of the,
question ? or how could it be expected that he could
possibly have due confidence in himself ? He would
venture to say that out of 20 causes of appeal the.
Lord Clhancellor would affirm 19. The same ttie.
trust of self would follow him higher still, it would
accompany him to the Woolsack ; and thus the se-
curity of all rights, the protection of the subject, the
power of appellate jurisdiction, would exist only iu
!tame, and no longer in reality. It had leer said
that in 1811 Sir Samuel Romilly, Sir John Leach,
and Mr. Canning, had all held the same language,
and thus demonstrated that the greatest and wisest
men were sufficiently fallible, when once they ad-
ventured to prophecy beyond' the sphere of their
knowledge, as 41 their predictions with reepect to
the future had been set at nought by the result.—,
lie, bewever, could not help thinking that all had
happened precisely as those illaatrious persons had
foretold, when he considered the growing tendency
to an increase of appeals. Exalted and numerous as
were the merits of his late lamented friend Sir
Samuel Romilly, and strong as were his claims to
respect from the profession, he was entitled to pre-.
eminent praise on this ground, above all others.—
He had said that now thut there was a Master of the
Rolls, no administration could intrust the great
seal to any person, in whom both Government and
the profession could not thoroughly confide. Now
he wee far from willing to speak a singly harsh sen-

tence to the prejudice of the prisent thancelltcr,
whom he greatly respected, for although that
noble and learned person had disappointed him in
some respects, he had satisfied him in others. It
would therefore be personally painful to him to say
any thing calculated to offend, but certainly flattery
never went farther than when it pretended that
his appointment had not accomplished Sir Samuel
Romilly's prediction, that the creation of the
Vice-Chancellor would facilitate giving the great
seal to those who would not have held it had
no Vice-Chancellor been in existence. He would
ask the Hon. Member opposite, whose arguments
almost made him suspect he was dreaming when he
listened to them, whether appeals had not latterly
increased to an inconceivable extent ? lie would
put the question to any professional man who had
grown old in the Court of Chancery, whether the
Chancellor did any thing else but hear appeals, or
whether he had ever heard so many, and done so
little equity business ? Even Lord Eldon, from the
time that he was assisted by the Vice-Chancellor in
1813, had heard but one-fourth the number of causes
that he had heard previous to that period. Time,
indeed, was found to hear bankrupt petitions ; but
they, it should be recollected, were by much the
most lucrative branch of business, and in that there
had been certainly of late years no arrear. He did
not wish to speak harshly of Lord Eldon in his re-
tirement and in his absence; he had never fanned
upon him when in power, and he was not inclined
to vilify him now. He frankly acknowledged, that
with meny errors and imperfections, in legal ac-
complishments he greatly excelled all others, but
withal he could not help thinking it somewhat re-
markable that the manner in which he disposed of
bankrupt petitions afforded a striking contrast to his
habitual dilatoriousness in other matters. The pre-
sent Bill would preclude the necessity of the Chan-
cellor sitting in equity causes from the Ist of Jan.
to the last of December. If he were asked why he
was against the addition to the Equity Judges, be
would reply by demanding to be first shown the
necessity for such an addition, which he denied
bad been hitherto done. They began at the
wrong end, for they should have commenced with
reforms in the Court of Chancery itself ; they
should have made the avenues smooth and
accessible to the suitors, and they should have
diminished the expenses of the Court before they lis-
tened to the Lord Chancellor calling out for help.—
They ought to have told him, in the first instance,
that they could not relieve the Chancellor until they
had relieved the suitor,—that he should be com-
pelled to go pare passe with the victims of his juris-
diction. He would put it to county members, who
would so soon have to meet their constituents,
whether it would not be decorous before they granted
the prayer of the Chancellor, to propound some mea-
sure which would yield relaxation to the suitor.—
(Hear.)—Fees for judicial business were of all others
the worst mode of payment that could possibly be
devised, as, when dependent on prolixity and multi-
plicity of forms, they were only a premium on
delay, and a bribe for expensiveness to the suitor.
If a Judge was paid by salary, he was exposed to
the public eye, and had no temptation to do wrong,
but the master was in the corner, saw only the
suitors, had no newspaper to report him, and his
question was, not how he should discharge the
greatest quantity of business, and with the most
advantage to the parties concerned, but how he
might contrive to do least, and apparently his power
of solving would in general do honour to a senior
wrangler. In short, he converted the office in a
great measure to a sinecure. But what would be
Isis remedy ? Let in the light,—throw open the
doors,—make him Judge in name as well as in fact.
(Hear.)—The masters had nearly the salary of
Judges ; they acted as Judges, but they had not a
Judge's responsibility.—(Hear.).-e-His Hon. Friend
cheered, and chided as he cheered, as if he meant to
insinuate that all this might be intended ; but he
could find no light in the Bill but which dawned in
the shape of fixed regular salaries on the office in
Southampton-buildings, Chancery-lane. If, how-
ever, what he suggested could be accomplished, he
would cheerfully support the measure proposed, as it
was always more gratifying to him to give support
than opposition, particularly if Government was
friendly to reform. The Hon. Member had intimated
that the feeling of his Majesty's Ministers was favour-
able to reform, but he would tell him that there was
no judging by mere feeling. He, for example,
should conclude from his own feeling that the sea-
son at present was midwinter, but he was told by
the calendar that it was midsummer, and he stood
corrected.—(Laughter.)—He readily gave the
Right Hon. Home Secretary credit for being bent
on reform, because he had always proved.a shield
and a tower of strength to reformers, and done much
towards keeping down the clamour which had im-
peded them in all their paths, and in every move-
ment. He had never exhibited the least Jealousy
towards those who had preceded him in the glori-
ous career on which he was entering himself, and
he had ever proved a illation instead of an enemy to
reform.—(Hear.)—But were he to judge of the So-
licitor-General and the Chancellor by what they bad
done, he could not come to the like conclusion with
regard to them; for all that the Chancellor pro-
posed was, the payment of the Master by salary in-
stead of by fees, which was doing literally nothing
towards an effective reform. Something had been
Metes.] about what might possibly be accomplished
next year, but, however sincere might be the pro-
mise thus he out, he would recommend to go
softly about legisla;ng in favour of the present Bill,
i
while such pledge was unredeemed. Times were
greatly changed since half a Volume had been made
up in refutation of his arguments on a former occa-
sion, for reform already had been partially intro-
duced. He conjured the House not to decide until
the facts were fully before them. The only honest
answer which they could return at present to the
Chancellor would be this—" Redeem your own
pledge, and then we will help you how you like,
when you like, and as you like, and not otherwise."
(Cheers.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defied any
Member to bring together in one Bill all that could
be accomplished in the way of reform, and sup-
ported the present Bill merely as a preliminary mea-
sure to a general improvement in the Court of Ex-
chequer. The Lord Chancellor had brought it for-
ward for the purpose of enabling himself to hear
more original causes than it had been hitherto in his
power to dispose of. As to what the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had said on the subject of the
Vice-Chancellor's rubicund complexion, it might be
pretty good as a joke, but was not very tangible as
MI argument. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
then went on to contend, that from the state of
business in the Court, the necessity for the addition
of a fourth Judge was fully made out.
Mr. HUSKISSON contended that there was a
division of opinion on the subject with those most
acquainted with it ; but from all he had heard, he
was not satisfied that the necessity for the fourth
Judge was suede out. The Bill was, it was said,
to be accompani.ed by two other measures, but until
those were decided upon the House ought not to
pronounce on this.
Sir C. WETHERELL said, that a reply at half-
past two in the morning was not amongst the delicice
of the House, atul he was not disposed to go into
any detail at that hour. There was, he contended,
nothing in his calculations that had been disproved.
They were certainly as clear as those of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in his sugar calculations. The arrears of the Court
of Chancery had been in a great degree disposed of,
and would in the course of a short tirce be wholly
got rid of without the assistance of an additional
Judge.
The House then divided—
For the. Resolution .
For the Order of the Day for the second reading 133
Majority 37
While strangers were excluded, we understood
that mother division took place on the amendment

of Mr. ttrougham, that the second reading be post-
poned to Monday.
For the Amendment
Against it 118
Majority
Mr. BROUGHAM then moved—" That the
House do adjourn ;" upon which
Sir R. PEEL consented to postpone the Bill to
Monday.
On returning to the gallery, we found the house
going through the other Orders of the Day, after
which it adjourned at Four o'clock.

PRICES OF STOCKS THIS
Rank stock 215
3 per Cent. Red. ...91VA %%%
3 per Cent. Cons shut
3 q per Cent 99%
Ditto Red. 99 1,4
4 per Cent. Ann.
Ditto, 1826 l44%ii
Bank L. Ann. l9 N, 1-16
Ditto 30 years
Ditto 30 years
India Stock shut
Ditto Bonds ... ....... .. 80 pm.

PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS
Austrian Bonds
Brazilian Bonds
Buenos Ayres Bonds
Chilian Bonds ...
Colombian Bonds
Ditto, 18'24 232/s%
Danish
Greek Bonds
Ditto, 18:15
Guatimala
Mexican Bonds
Ditto, 189. i 3B 7%

DAT AT ONE O'CLOCK.

South Sea Stock shut
Old Annuities
New Ditto shut
Ex. Bills, .£l,OOO 11. SO 78 pm.
Ditto lid. 80 78 pm.
Ditto ..... .......500 2d. 80 78 pm.
Ditto.... ... . . lid. 80 78 pm.
Ditto Small 2.1. 80 78 pm.
Ditto lid. 80 78 pm.
Bank for Acc0unt.......... -
India for Account
Cons. for July 21 92%34

PRICES OF IRISH STOCKS, DUBLIN, JUNE 2.
Bank Stock — St. Patrick Insur. (per 'h.)
Consols, 3 oer cent.
Goy. Stock, 3g per cent 9535 National Ditto —
Ditto, New — Patriotic Ditto r2}i
4 per Cent 99% Hibernian Bank
Gov. Deb. 34 per cent... 92.%; Provincial Ditto ......
Royal Canal stock —' Royal Irish Mine —
Grand Canal Stock 212 Imperial Mine —
City Deb. 4 per cent —: Mining Co. of Ireland ...... fl%
Ballast Office Deb. 4p. c — Commercial Buildings —

Arrived.

MAL

Due. Arrived.

O America 0 0 Hamburg 0
O Brazil
O Buenos Ayres 0 1 Jamaica U
O Carthagena. 0 0 Leeward Islands
1 Dublin ... 0 0 Lisbon ' 0
O Flanders 0 1 Malta 0
1 France 0 0 Sweden
O Guernsey&Jersey.. 0 1 Waterford 0

NIGH WATER AT LONDON' BRIDGE TO-BIORROW.
Morning ... 52. minutes after 5. I Evening...l3 minutes after 6.

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Commissi-
oners of the Metropolis Turnpkie Roads North of
the Thames, will meet at their Office, Whitehall-place, in
the Parish of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, in the City of
Westminster, on FRIDAY, the 9th day of July next,
at the hour of One o'clock in thelAfternoon, to consult
about removing and discontinuing various Toll Gates,
Toll Houses, Toll Bars, and Side Bars, now being upon
or by the side of the Roads comprised in the Ninth
District of the Metropolis Turnpike Roads North of the
Thames, and erecting new Toll Gates, Toll Houses, Toll
Bars, and Side Bars, upon or by the side of the Roads
comprised in the said Ninth District.
By Order of the Commisssioners,
J. L. PANTER, Chief Clerk and Sec.
Metropolis Roads Office, June 25, 1830.

To the WORTHY and INDEPENDENT LIVERY
of the CITY of LONDON.

GENTLEMEN,
HAVING been this Day proposed at your
COMMON HALL as one of the SHERIFFS for
the Year ensuing, and returned by a very large majority,
I should be deserting my duty to you, and unworthy of
the Honourable Office which it is my ambition to fill, if I
did not take the earliest opportunity of returning you my
best thanks for the liberal support which you have shown
me. As a Poll was demanded upon the occasion, Ido
not hesitate to assure you, that I am determined, after such
a flattering testimony of your good opinion, to continue
on the Hustings at my place to the last moment.
As some attempts have been made to excite opposition,
I beg those numerous friends who have spontaneously pro-
mised me their warmest support, to come at once to the
Poll, and thus to give effect to their own wishes by sup-
porting their own nomination.
I have only to add, that if, at the close of the contest,
your choice should fall on me, I will devote myself with
spirit and determination to the support of the Rights of
my Fellow Citizens, and to the maintenance of my office
with firmness, hospitality, and dignity, becoming the
Sheriff of this great Metropolis.
I have the honour to be, Gentlemen,
Your very obedient servant,
THOMAS FLIGHT.
Committee-Room, Queen's Arms Tavern,
Claapside, June 25, IS3O.
Mr. Flight's Committee sit every day.

THE TOWN and FORTIFICATIONS
of ALGIERS.—GRATIS, with THE NEWS
of SUNDAY next, June 27, will be given a beautiful Litho-
graphic Engravine of the TOWN and FORTIFICA-
TIONS of ALGIERS—with the surrounding country,
explaining the route by which the French Army is ad-
vancing to the attack ; from a Drawing transmitted by a
French Officer employed in the blockade.
Orders received by all the Newsmen, and at the Office,
No. 2s, Brydges-street, Covent•garden.