The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-26 00:00:00

anti Agricultural classes of the community in some parts of
the United Kingdom ; and if he excepted some portions
from that summary, it was because he believed that there
were parties which, so far from being visited with such
infliction, were enjoying a comparative state of ease and
of comfort. It was observable that the Hon. Baronet
(alluding to Sir Edward Knatclibull) had confined his
statements to England only, and had omitted all notice of
that part of the United Kingdom which at all times com-
manded much of the care and attention of that House—he
alluded to Ireland. If the Hon. Baronet had investigated
the state of agricultural produce in that country, he would
have found that great prosperity and comfort were existing,
and he would likewise have found that there were parts of
this country in which much of the pressure of distress had
arisen from the free introduction of Irish produce ; so that
in proportion as one part of the kingdom was depressed, at
least another partion was benefitted and advanced." Now
this Was reported to have been uttered in a House in which
there should have been at least one hundred Irish Mem-
bers present, every one of whom could have borne testi•
many to its falsehood. He would now return to those
facts which proved that the assertions of the Right Hon.
Gentleman were unfounded. The writer of the letter to
which he alluded, stated in Bandon—a town of 12,000
inhabitants—there were 4,000 in a state of the greatest
distress ; and that in the city of Cork more than 9,000
persons were wholly supported by voluntary contributions
to the House of Industry, from whence it was admini-
stered for their support. The writer of the letter also
added, that bacon pigs had fallen thirty per cent. in price
during the last twelve months—that oats were almost un-
saleable—that wool was in the same state, and had been
parted with for sixpence a pound. He also added, that he
had received several notices of the surrender of a farm
which had formerly always been let with a fine; and that
debts, instead of being recoverable, were in almost every
case being compounded for at the rate of six or eight shil-
lings in the pound. [Lord Darnley was here observed to
smile, and express his dissent.] The Noble Lord might
smile, but it would be well for him, if, as the possessor
of Irish estates, he did not find the statement but too
true. Having said so much on the subject of the agricul-
tural distress, he would now entreat their Lordships to
consider what was the state of the manufacturing classes.
Did there exist a man possessed of a heart to feel for the
situation of his fellow creatures,whose bosom did net throb
with agonising pangs when he heard that thousands of un-
fortnnate persons out of employment were compelled to
drag on a miserable existence with an allowance of
twopence halfpenny a day. It behoved Ministers to
consider well how long they were likely, with any mili-
tary force, however considerable, to preserve tranquillity
in the country, and to keep the discontents of so many
classes who had little to lose and little to fear from break-
ing out into open rebellion. It was said, however, that
the master manufacturers were prosperous, although the
men might be in a state of suffering. He feared that the
condition of the master manufacturers was deceptions; and
that, although their production: might be large and their
trade apparently great, the profits arising from it affinded
no remuneration for the employment of their capital. He
knew, that a Noble Lord near hiss could contradict him
if he was wrong., that the price of one of the staple articles
of the trade of Birmingham had fallen one half, and the
wages of labour had been reduced still more lamentably--
he believed to the extent of one quarter of their former
amount. The Noble Duke may say that much of this
was owing to the productive power of steam when ap-
plied to machinery. He was well aware of the effects
likely to be produced by the undue extension of the powers
of steam. He knew that it tended to the injury of the
labouring classes, and was not attended with correspond-
ing benefits, because the advantages which it produced by
giving cheap articles to the consumer, and a large stock
to the manufacturer, were more than counter-balanced by
the additions it made to the peors' rates. But even sup-
posing that some of the distress of the manufacturers was
owing to the power looms, it surely could not be said that
those power rooms had been introduced since last Ses-
sion. The power looms were in existence years ago,
and the distress which has been so apparent for the
last two years could not well be connected with
them ; besides, if the Noble Duke was informed so
well as he ought to be, he would know that the power
looms had been given up in several districts. It never,
however, had been contended that the production of
power looms was not fur the benefit of the masters. All
that was said was, that it enabled them to fabricate far
beyond the quantity that could be consumed ; anti he con-
fessed it was very natural that they should endeavour to
make up fur the diminution of their profits by the extent
of the quantity which they could bring into the market.
He had heard a great deal of excessive production, but
when he found that those who would always purchase the
comforts and necessaries of life, if they had the means,
were unable to do so any longer, he thought the decrease
of consumption would be found to have gone on in an
exact ratio with the increase of distress, and that the ex-
cessive produce was not the consequence of over manufac-
ture, but of a diminished means of purchase. There
might be, he had no doubt, a glut of produce at a parti-
cular season; but to say that the manufacturers would go
on for years piling up heap on heap of manufactures with-
out end, would I e to say what every min knew was not
the case—that the manufacturers of England were totally
ignorant of the principles of trade, and possessed not even
ordinary prudence in the management of their affairs.—
(Hear, hear.)—The Noble Duke, in that elaborate com-
position, the Speech from the Throne, had proclaimed to
the country that the exports of the country exceeded those
of all former years. Now he (Lord Stanhope) did not
mean to say that the exports of official value might not
have done so; but the Noble Duke knew well, that if
taken according to the real value, it would be found the
exports hail greatly fallen off. Profits of trade must he
acknowledged to be in a direct ratio with the quantity
and the price ; and, therefore, when the Noble Duke
attempted to prove that the country was flourishing
because the exports had increased, it was incumbent on
him to show, at the same time, that quantity as measured
by tl.e declared value was also greater than it had been in
former years. But what said the manufacturers and mer-
chants themselves? The trade was carried on without any
profit—that the outlay of capital produced no returns, and
that goods were sold at a loss. He bad heard, indeed,
that so little was the demand for manufactures, that goods
sent to the other hemisphere had failed to find a market,
and were returned again to this country under the vain
hope that they might be disposed of. He should be glad
to know bow this could he reconciled with the assertion
that trade was flourishing and commerce profitable ? He
knew well it was not in the power of the Noble Duke or
of the Parliament of England to prevent all foreign com-
petition, but then what was the just inference to Ire drawn
from this? Why, that it was the duty of the Govern-
ment to support and encourage the home market by every
means in their power, instead of depressing and destroy-
ing those who at all times proved the most secure anti
most exteusive consumers of the pro.lucts of our industry.
The extent of home consumption had been estimated as
high as nine-tenths of the whole production, and he knew
it had never been lower than four-tenths of the whole.
Looking at foreign consumption, he would beg their Lord-
ships to tonsider what eves the state of the West Indians,
at all times the most important of the consumers of
our produce. By a series of impolitic measures their re-
sources were crippled, and they were deprived of the means
of paying far our manufactures. According to the state-
wenn) of the West Indian proprietors, it appeared that the
tax cn the higher description of sugar was 33 high as 50
per cent., leaving the planter, as a remuneration for the
cost of production, only twelve shillings on the fine kind,
and nothing on the lower. While this was the state of
the Colonies, what was the condition of the ship-owner?
Why, it was admitted on all sides that he could not carry
on his trade without a loss, while foreigners were reaping
advantages of which he was deprived. Many parted with
their ships at a loss of 40 per cent., rather than continue
to work them at a loss. Such was the state to which the
measures of the Government had reduced one of the
greatest interests of the country—one to which our an-
cestors attached the highest importance, and or.e to which
we must be indebted for our maritime power and our in-
sular security. Having thus briefly adverted to the state
of agriculture, manufactures, and trade, he was pained to
observe in the survey, that, although all were in a state
of distress and progressive misery, there did not appear a
single grain of hope or comfort to illumine the prospect for
the future. The Noble Duke had, however, found one
topic of consolation in the midst of the general desolation,
and that was—that the traffic on the canals had iucreased—
(Hear, hear)—and that the tonnage employed on them had
reached an amount never known before. How lamentable
must be the condition of Government, and haw limited
must be its information, when the Noble Duke at its head
is driven to such a topic for an argument? lie was at a
loss to know whether the Noble Duke's information on the
subject of canals was drawn from official returns or private
mernorandums.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He de-
nied, however, that it afforded conclusive testimony of
the prosperity of trade ; for if goods could not meet
with a market, and were hawked up and down for
sale, that would increase the traffic on the canals,
although it might bring neither profit to the owners of the
goods, nor add to the prosperity of the country. The Noble
Duke had also said look at the number of new houses that
are built—surely all are not distressed ; those who take
these houses and live in them cannot. be distressed. Why:
ree4v, although they all katw that the Noble Duke had

travelled through the greater poi Lion of the country last
summer, one would suppose, from the extent of his in-
formation, that he had not psesed bt yowl the bounds of the
bills of mortality. These houses were neither built for nor
occupied by the productive classes. Could the Noble Duke
name to him the number of mills that were also newly built,
and of manufactories that were rising up throughout the
country ? He had heard of none. Those who had good in-
comes, increased by the distresses of others, lived in good
houses, but the mass of the people were compelled to seek a
refuge in any shed which afforded a covering. The Noble
Duke had also said that the retail dealers were not affected
by the distress. Now he would say, taking into considera-
tion the immense wealth expended in the metropolis, that
many retail dealers were distressed even there ; and lie had
good reason to believe that the distress of the country
dealers was very great. Could any one also deny that the dis-
tress of the retail dealers in Ireland wes great, when debts
were compounded for at 3s. in the pound ? But there was no
argument in saving that all were not distressed. No one
who complained of general distress intended to say that
the fundholders and annuitants p irticipated in that &s-
-tress. No !—the large capitalists were increasing by the
misfortunes of the others, and flourishing, like rank and
noxious weeds, amidst the ruin anti desolation which sur-
rounded them.—(Hear, hear.)—But the fundholders were
themselves injured by the distress, not because their in-
comes mere diminished, but because the security for those
incomes was diminished. Was that security found in the
prosperity of the Revenue or was it not? It was stated in
that famous and oft-referred to Speech from the Throne,
that the national income of the year had attained the full
amount at which it was estimated. Now he thought it
would have been fairer to state that it had not reached the
amount of the former year.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said no.
Earl STANHOPE said he was glad to hear the Noble
Duke say so; but he believed it would be admitted that
the falling off in the income of the year amounted to
1,300,000/. The Speech also said that there were no
doubts respecting the increase of the prosperity of the
country. Whatever might have been thought three weeks
ago, he fancied those doubts must be now very much in-
creased; and if it unfortunately proved true, as lie had
heard, although he hail no means of knowing with cer-
tainty, that the Revenue declined more and more every
week, and particularly in the Excise, the great criterion of
public consumption, he thought it would be admitted that
the boasted prosperity of the Speech was not very likely to
continue. Seeing this great distress affecting every branch
of trade and manufacture, and even the security of the an-
nuitant affected by the diminution of the Revenue, were
they to be told that no inquiry was to take place into the
causes of that di-tress; or was it to be attributed to some
epidemic disease, new in its existence, unknown in its
n iture, affecting at one and the same time all the interests
of the country, and yet wholly without remedy? It was
said in the Speech that the distress was partial ; he denied
it, and he did not think that he was called on to prove
that there was no one district that did not feel that dis-
tress, before he could bring the House to form a jedginent
of the necessity of an inquiry. The cause from which all
this proceeded showed that it must increase rather than
diminish ; and he thought that nothing could be so falla-
cious as to expect that the intolerable distress which now
afflicted the country was to be removed of itself. The
present was the most alarming period that had ever existed
in this country ; he would not even except the period of
the French Revolution. He contended, and he could
prove, that the situation of the country was much more
perilous now than it had been then. It was true that at
that period securities had fallen in this country, rebellion
had broken out in Ireland, and there existed a mutiny in
the fleet; but, in spite of all this, Government had then
had a security which they had not now—they bad had the
security that the great mass of the people were happy,
prosperous, and content._( Hear.)—The people were not
then afflicted with th it distress which necessarily renovated
discontent, and would soon convert it into actual disaffi.c-
Lion. Never, then, was there a period when inquiry was
more indispensably necessary, not only that the causes,
which were not explained in the Speech, might be investi-
gated, but in order that the remedies most suited to the
occasion might be applied. Their Lordships were bound
to inquire for the satisfaction of the people, knowing that
they would not and ought not to remain patient under such
suffering, if no attempt was made to afford them relief. He
should abstain from expressing any opinions of the remedies
required, as it was for the House to inquire into that; and
they were the more required to do this, because from the
Speech of his Majesty, it was evident that there was no in-
tention on the part of the Government to propose any
remedy. In fact he looked upon it as en admission upon
the part of the Ministry that they hail no remedies to
offer. It had been asked, what good could result from
this inquiry? In answer to that, he would say that the
goad must depend on the mode and spirit in which the
inquiry was conducted. But, on the other hand, be
would, in his turn, ask what were the evils which might
ensue, if that inquiry were refused 2—(Hear, bean).—
Would it not appear to the country that they had deserted
their duty, that they had neglected its interests, and that
they deserved—not the affection and confidence of the
people—but their well-merited reproach, and even their
hatred ? It was not his intention to move for a Select
Comtiihtee, because whatever advantages might arise from
that course, with respect to other subjects (as in a recent
instance in which the affairs of India were to undergo in-
quiry) it appeared to him to be useless where immediate
relief was required, and where it was not necessary to
enter into any very ample detail. Besides, what was the
course pursued with respect to a Select Committee? In
the first place, the First Lord of the Treasury considered
whom be should make members of it ; and among the
numbers were always sure to be found some who never
attended its meetings, and some official Lords,
who, from the importauce of their situation, took
upon themselves to do all in their power to interrupt
the drift and tendency of time inquiry before them._.
(A laugh.)—What followed then? Witnesses were

sent for from all parts of the country, and examined
day after day, de omnibus rebus, et quibusdam
and at last a great mountain of evidence was produced--
not of grain, but of chaff—and which, from the irrelevant
and unimportant matter it contained, few persons were
patient enough to peruse--the whole ending with no re-
commendation as to any remedy to be applied. The
Speech from the Throne said that due caution cught to be
observed ; but how were their Lordships to be cautiaus if
they did not enter into any inquiry ? An inquiry before a
Committee of the whole House was what he wanted_

then they should be able to receive evidence on any facts
that might be doubtful, and obtain practical evidence from
those who were practically informed. But the great ad-
vantage that would be derived was the discussion of the re-
solutions on various portions of the subject ; those resolu-
tions would be discussed with that convenience of debate
which formed the great recommendation of the course he
proposed. If he were asked what specific remedy he pro-
posed to apply, his answer, both on that head as well as
on that of causes, waQ, that if the inquiry should take
place, the investigation of causes and the suggestion of re-
medies ought to emanate from that Committee; and if
there were to be no inquiry, it would then be his duty to
bring the subject before the House on separate occasions,
and by a separate series of motions.--(Hear, hear.)—lt
was because he felt that it was impossible to unite in one
debate the discussion of all the causes and remedies that
existed, which made him avoid it now. He was, how-
ever, prepared with a series of resolutions, which he
trusted the Noble Duke would have no objection to discuss

in the Committee ; and if this should be objected to, it was
impossible not to come to the conclusion that the desire of
Government was to obstruct the fair and full investigation
of these matters. There were persons who spoke without
thinking—(A laugh)—and they were apt to observe that
such a proceeding would cause the encouragement of false
hopes. It was his belief that the country had not that de-
gree of respect for the Parliament which would make it
form either false or real hopes as to its conduct.—(A
laugh.)—But, if it was dangerous to encourage false hopes,
was it not still more dangerous to tell the country that
there were no hopes at all for them ?__(Hear, hear.)—
What would that be but to inflame them to despair?—
( Hear, hear.) —For himself he should not despond, unless
from the result of a full examination it should appear (and
he believed not only that was false, but impossible) that
no relief whatever could be administered to the people of
England. But it had been said that this disease of the
body politic would work its own cure. He believed it;
but it would be a radical cure, a cure such as would be

most agreeable to those who cal!ed that evil radical which
in its progress shook to the foundation, if net levelled to
the dust, all the existing institutions of the country. It
was also said that the country was in an advanced state.

He concurred in this; but what was the state to which it
was advancing? It appeared to him that it was rapidly
advancing, owing to the pressure of distress, to a national
bankruptcy. lie considers I, moreover, that it was ad-
vancing to a general disorganisation, and that at no distant
period it would end in the total dissolution of the body po-
litic. Before he sat down he wished to call their Lord-
ships' attention to what was the real question before them.
They were not now considering what were the causes or
what were the remedies. What they were considering
was shortly this—whether or not it was the duty of Par-
liament, in the present state of the country, to institute
an inquiry into the evil? In bringing this matter before
the House, whatever might be, its result, he felt that Ile
had discharged his duty; he trusted that their Lordships

would discharge theirs, and that they would remember
that the time must come When they would have to answer
it to their own consciences, and perhaps to their country.
The Plot& Earl concluded by moving " That the House
resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to
take into consideration the internal state of the country."
Viscount GODERICH—If I hail consulted my own
ease, I should have abstained from the course which I am
pursuing; but if, before the, House entered on the consi-
deration of this measure, I felt considerable doubt as to
the propriety of concurring in the proposition of the Noble
Earl, I must confess that the speech we have just heard
has most materially confirmed that resolution —(hear,
hear.)—l must confess, also, that I did not at all expect
that the Noble Earl would have confined himself on this
occasion to the description of a state of things which no
one can attempt to deny—l mean the general distress
which prevails in the country, and the duty which lies on
ycur Lordships to do the best in your power to alleviate
and relieve that distress.—(Hear, bear. )—I expected that
he would have proceeded to state something as to the
causes which, in his view, had produced that distress, and
something of the notions which he entertains as to the
practicability of its remely.—(Hear, hear.)—l do not say
that it was incumbent en any individual to submit to your
Lordships a specific remedy; but when the Noble Lord
had proposed a course of proceeding so inconvenient in it-
self, and so inadequate to effect that discuss'on—superficial
as the Noble Earl makes it out to be—l think that, before
we consent to such an inquiry, we have a right to know
what it is we are to inquire about. In the course of his
speech, the Noble Earl has taken occasion to treat with
contempt the principle of Select Committees, and has par-
ticularly noticed one which is now sitting.
Earl STANHOPE—I beg pardon. I particularly said,
that for such an inquiry as that into the affairs of India, a
Select Committee might do.
Viscount GODERICUL—Just so; but then the Noble
Earl proceeded to describe the proceedings of such a Com-
mittee in a somewhat contemptuous style; and though he
has complained that the conduct of this House is not such
as to command the respect of the country, I must say that
the Noble Earl's own description is not calculated to raise
us in the estimation of the public. It, however, strikes
me that it would be easy to describe the proceedings of a
Committee of the whole House in terms as ludicrous as
those which have fallen from the Noble Earl with respect
to a Select Committee. It has not been my fortune, since
I have been a Member of this House, to attend a Commit-
tee of the whole House on any important subject; but do
not the King's Ministers sit in a Committee of the whole
House ? Are not the followers of Government on the
same benches, then, which they always occupy ? In short,
I have heard no objection against a Select Committee which
may not be urged with ten times the force against the plan
proposed by the Noble Earl.—(Hear.)—Surely, then, no
imputation of want of feeling is to be brought against any
one for objecting to the mode of proceeding proposed by
the Noble Earl. According to my view of the case, it has
one remarkable objection. He tells you that a Select Com-
mittee would go into minuteness of detail, but that a Com-
mittee of the whole House would only look at the general
result. But if the people of England are to be satisfied
with such a superficial inquiry, little do we understand
either of their interests or their feelings. When the Noble
Earl says that if we refuse this inquiry, the people of Eng-
land will conclude that we reject their prayer, and that we
have shut our eyes, our ears, and our hearts to their suf-
I

, .
ferings.—(Hear.)—l say that such is en unjust imputa-
tion ; and I shall endeavour, before I sit down, to show
that although I dissent from many of the Noble Earl's doc-
trines on this subject, I do not believe that the Parliament
is incapable of effecting a direct and immediate relief to
the people, and of laying a foundation of great and perma-
nent good to the interests of the country. I admit that
the distress of the country is general ; I admit that it is
more severe in some respects than at any former period--
(Hear, hear)—and when I reflect on one circumstance
to which the Noble Earl has alluded—the exemplary pa-
tience and resignation with which the people have borne
this—l know not what feelings can have possession of a
man's mind, if he does not feel it to be a duty—outweigh-
ing and transcendant to all others---to apply his best and

most earnest energies to their relief. But there are con-
siderations out of which there may arise the possibility of
applying some degree of alleviation to this. And first as
to its causes. There are some of them, no doubt, beyond
the reach, as the Speech from the Throne expressed it, of
legislative interference.—(Hear, hear.)—This country,
for the last twenty-five )ears, has been in a most singu-
larly artificial state; and indeed every country during the
same period has been more or less in the same state. It
was totally impossible, therefore, when that artificial state
ceased, that all the interests of the country should not par-
take of the revulsion which was the consequence ; and I
believe that this country, having been affected more
than any other by those artificial circumstances, has
felt this revulsion the most severely. One of the con-
sequences thus produced was, that the country no longer
enjoyed those high prices, of which se many appeared
to be enamoured, and which appears to be in great
favour with the Noble Earl. But, besides this, there were
two other causes—the state of the currency, and the state
of the taxation ; and I cannot but think that it is possible
for Parliament to apply—not perhaps an instantaneous—
but at all events a material relief. First, then, as to the
currency. Though I never entertained a doubt that the
safety of the country depended on the restoration of the
metallic currency, I never for a moment concealed flout
myself that such a course would be accompanied with
great pressure upon the people. I always looked upon it
as choosing the lesser evil rather than the greater. But
there are some circumstances connected with the currency
which ought to lead us to conclude that it is not yet in
the state in which it ought to be. 1 allude to the state

of the currency, exclusive of the paper of the Bank of
England. The Noble Duke, the other night, stated that
the amount of the currency now in circulation was equal
to what it had been at any former period. It may or may
not be 60. But it appears to me to be difficult to come at
any positive conclusion on the subject. But, at all events,
I think that this matter does not dopend on the actual
quantity of the circulation, but on a great variety of other
considerations—(Hear, hear)—owing to a change in
which the cireuhtion, which was at one time too little,
may at another time be too much.—(Hear, hear.)—ln the

. ,
statement on the currency made by the Noble Duke the
other night, I think he counted one portion of it twice
over ; that is to say, I think, when he mentioned twenty-
eight millions of gold, he did not apprehend that a cer-
tain portion of that must be in the coffars of the Bank of

England.
The Dule of WELLINGTON—My statement of the
amount was independent of what was retained by the
Bank.

Viscount GODERICH—I ani glad to hear that, for I
then have to give the Bank credit for a more judicious ma-
nagement than I otherwise think they would have deserved.
But, setting aside that part of the question, I think that
the currency is not only insufficient, but that it is unne-
cessarily low—(Hear, hear)—and that it might be made
higher without the slightest danger to the country.—
( Hear, hear.)—l know no criterion by which we are so
well able to judge of the proper amount of the circulation
as by the state of our foreign exchanges. For the last
eighteen months those foreign exchanges have been highly
in favour of this country, and till the currency shall be
below par, it appears to me that the currency cannot be
too full. The maxim we should adopt on this head ought
to be, to keep it, " without o'erflowing full," and I think
that it is desirable to have in this country as large a supply
as may be consistent with this principle. The view which
I take of the distresses of the country leads rne, I confess,
to the opinion that those distresses are in part to be attri-
buted to the imperfect system of banking which prevails
out of the Metropolis. In my judgment, the issues of the
country bankers are not regulated by those principles which
are likely to prove advantai.Teous to themselves or beneficial
to the country. When times of difficulty arrive, the
issuers of the country paper immediately take alarm, and
contract their circulation with a timidity unfounded and
ruinous; and when the prospects of the commercial world
undergo a change, they immediately begin to issue on a
scale so extended, well deserving to be described as rash.
If lam asked n-hat remedy I would recommend for this
evil, it is this—give increased facility to the esta-
blishment of banks. It must, of course, be in the re-
cdlection of your Lordships, that after the panic in
ISG—a panic, the grounds of which were much exag-
gerated, and the effects not fairly represented—l say, my
Lords, that after that panic, the two measures his Ma-
jesty's Government—with which I was then connected—
proposed to Parliament were, first, an earlier suppression
of the one pound notes than had been assigned by law ;
the second was, an Act for facilitating the format'on of
new Banks, under the regulations and the principles of
Joint Stock Companies. Previous to that time the law

had restricted the number of partners engaged in private
banking concerns to six; but Lord Liverpool, who had
well considered the subject, and who, above most men,
was well qualified to form a sound judgment upon ques-
tions of that nature, and the decision at which he arrived
was to recommend to your Lordships, as it was mine to
recommend to the other House of Parliament, a Bill for
facilitating the Establishment of Country Banks upon the
principle of Joint Stock Companies. That measure was
necessarily imperfect, and for the simple reason, that we
could not induce the Bank of England to relax their privi-
leges to the degree that was necessary for giving a fair
opportunity for trial to the plan proposed by Government

at the period to which I advert. Since then we have
been brought within three years of the period when the
Bank Charter will expire. Now, though nothing can he
further from my mind than pretending to say anything of
the mode in which Parliament may deal with that sub-
ject, but this I iv ill that the liberty of saying, that it will
be impossible that your Lordships will ever agree that
the Charter of that Corporation be renewed unle,s
they give greater facilities than heretofore to the forme-
Lion of Joint Stuck Banking Companies.—( Hear, hear. )
It is utterly iampossible that the Bank of England should
supply all the cut rency of the country ; and the proo: that
they cannot do so is to be found in this, that they have
done all in their power for that purpose—they have esta-
blished Branch Banks, and done all else that they might,
but without success. My persuasion is, that nothing will
better supply the existing vacuum in the currency than
the tstablishment of hanks upon the Scotch system. I do
believe, that the extensive adoption of that system would
have the effect of safely and instantly filling that vacuum.
Such banks would proceed upon principles very different
from those which governed the present cla.s of country
banks. No one bank knows any thing of the manner in
which other banks carry on business. They, again, know
nothing of what is going. forward in the Bank of Eng-
land, and the Government remains in perfect ignorance
of the operations of all. Hence as ise the most compli-
cated and monstrous difficulties. But of the sort of banks
of which I speak, publicity would be their essence ; and,
from the number of persons concerned in them, the fullest
information would be possessed, and tiles directed, re-
specting the course and variations of foreign exchanges,
and the vibrations of that golden chain upon which so
much depends. A body, so formed, could easily discern
the earliest approaches of danger ; and from them such
contractions of their issues might be expected, as a sound
and broad acquaintance with the subject might be
expected to supply, corrected and canvassed by a
numerous proprietary. At all event., whatever be
adopted, the banking system must be put upon
a footing safe and substantial, such as will, on the one
hand, prevent over issues, and on the other guard against
unwise and dangerous contraction. It was with views of
this sort that the measures of 1826 were proposed ; but,
as I have already said, they were rendered insufficient by
the Directors of the Bank feeling it to be their duty to re-
fuse their assent to any relaxation of the privileges of
which their Charter had put them in possession. No -
withstanding that this refusal acted so prejudicially upon
the establishment of Joint Stock Companies, seven or
eight weme set up, and, I believe, at the present moment
are doing good business; but the number is too small to be
productive of any extensive benefit, and this disadvantage
is obviously owing to time existence of those restrictions
which the privileges of the Bank of England impose. In
making this statement, I by no means wish to convey any
censure upon the conduct of the Bank of England. I
have had much communication with the Directors of that
Corporation during the few years that I was connected
with his Majesty's Government ; and the results of that
communication, combined with other circumstances, have
left the fullest conviction on my mind of the earnest desire
which they entertain not only of discharging the obliga-
tions they owe to their constituents, but of doing all in
their power to promote the public good, in discharge
of the difficult, serious, delicate, and at times awful
duties, which they are called on to perform. I should
do them great injustice if I did not state, that even
when I thought them in error, and looked upon
their conduct as injudici ,us, I still saw most palpably
manifested a disposition, an earnest desire to do justice to
the other proprietors and the public. The next subject to
which I desire to direct your Lordships' attention, is that
of taxation. It will be remembered that at no time have I
joined in those indiscreet attacks which from time to time
have been made upon the King's Government to reduce tax-
ation. Perhaps it will be said, and not unnaturally, that
the situation which I held for some years rendered me the
least likely of all men to join in those attacks; indeed it
was my duty for some years to resist them ; but I think
that resistance was not carried beyond the proper limit.
During a short period of my connection with Government,
it was my fortune, as its organ in the other House, to pro-
pose the repeal of 9,000,0001. of taxes ; and now I will call
your Lordships' attention to the practical effect of that
reduction. If the consumption of the taxed commodities
bad remained the same, the Revenue of the country would
have been reduced to the amount of 9 000,0001. What,
however, was the fact ? The accounts of 1827 showed that
there was a loss ofonly 3,000,000/. and the succeding year
was only 2,000,0001. below the income of 1827. I need
scarcely then, my Lords, praise the wisdom of those reduc-
tions ; the more especially when I state the fact that the Re-
venue did not suffer to the extent of the reductions—nay,
that the loss to the public income bore no proportion to
the relief given from taxation. It was all along stated that
there would be a certain loss, and it was foreseen that that
loss would not equal reduction; but there Were few be-
yond those by whom the measure was proposed who anti-
cipated so large a reduction with so small a diminution of
income. To this I have to add, that in some branches of
the public revenue, so far from lowered duties producing
diminished receipts, the direct reverse was the effect pro-
duced—increased income followed upon reduced imports.
I allude
,particularly to the alteration of duties affecting
Scotch and Irish spirits. When those alterations were
first proposed, they were immediately objected to on the
ground that the people would then have increased facilities
of indulging in intemperance—that they might drink in
the streets ad libitum—and that the change, though a
pecuniary relief, would be a moral injury; facts, however,
falsified this prediction. The parties who made it over-
looked the fact that the change did not make legal spirits
one whit more accessible than illicit spirits had previously
been. On reference to returns, your Lordships will see
that if consumption had remained the same, the loss to time
revenue would have been 800,0001. But not only was
there nn loss to the revenue, but it was actually found to
exceed former years, though the reduction of duty was as
much as 50 per cent. Thus was there gain without loss
—pecuniary advantage without any corresponding sacri-
fice. Upon such data as this, then, I might say to your
Lordships, if you could spare 1,000,000/. of the public in-
come, you might repeal 9,000,000/. of the taxes. From
the papers presented to the other House of Parliament
for 1828, after making the necessary deductions front
both sides—from the one the reduction effected by means
of the contract with the Bank of England for the pay-
ment of half-pay and pensions; and from the other side—
the side of payments—the arrangement made with the
trustees of those annuities, we perceive that the balance is
3,231,000/. ; that in 1829 it was 1,711,0001., making a
total of 4,942,0001 The average of those two years
being 2,471,000/. ; and taking that average of 2,471,000/.
as a fair criterion of the present year, we may assume for
1830 a balance of at least 2,470,000/. Now I think the
circumstances of the country require that a vigorous ad-
vance should be made by the Government in reducing the
taxes. In saying this, however, I beg to be understood as
not undervaluing the reductions which have been made.
I think those reductions are worth a great deal. The
Estimates have been reduced 1,300,000/. ; now if we add
to this the estimated average reduction of 2,470,0001., it
gives us in round numbers a sum of 3,700,0001. If lam
asked
say,
first,what I should I
there
erear e threemodes recommend
toi be done n
in which
itiltnh aythatb ues
thr,
iais.
posed of—fat, That surplus of 3,700,000/. may be ap-
plied to the reduction of the public debt-2d, It inay be
applied solely to reduce taxation-3d, It may be applied
in a ntianner that shall form a combination of both modes.
The last of these is that which I should think it advisable
in Parliament to adopt. While I was connected with his
Majesty's Government there was at one time a sur-
plus of 7,000,000/, of that sum 2,000,0001. were
applied to the reduction of taxation, and 5,000,0001.
to the liquidation of debt. lam aware that debt and
taxation cannot now be interfered with in any degree
approximating to the same proportions; but I think that
a reduction of taxes might be effected to the extent of
1,700,0001., leaving 2,000,000/. as a surplus to guard
against contingencies, and to save the Government from
the risk of being obliged to borrow money in time of peace
—(Hear, hear, hear, from the Duke of Richmond, and
one or two other Peers)—but I conceive that an esti-
mated surplus of 2,000,0001. will prove quite sufficient to
prevent any necessity of going in debt. I should certainly
be the last man in your Lordships' House to recommend so
large a reduction of taxation, did I not believe that the
situation of the country made it a ditty in his Majesty's
Ministers to attempt that reduction. When I consider the
various ways in which the taxes operate, I sin induced to
consider that I do no more than discharge an imperative
duty in calling your Lordships' attention to some of the
various ways in which taxation operate. It diminishes the
actual amount which a consumer can afford to enjoy
of the several articles taxed. In manufacture it diminishes
the quantity of capital, skill, and industry which can be
applied to the many branches on which it directly ope-
rat, s, to say nothing of the encouragement which it affords
to illicit practices. There is one most absurd and mis-
chievous tax, of which I earnestly desire to see the repeal
I mean the tax uponhops. There is no produce of the soil
so much affected by the variations of the weather as
hops. One year the duty on them may be as high as
400,000/.—the next it may suddenly drop down to
40,0001. It is for that and other reasons the most unfit
object of taxation that can easily lie conceived. Who
can point oat in our system anything more objectionable
than bringing an excise officer into a garden? I find.that
the average amount of the tax on hops is 250,0001. ;

the repeal of that would give a positive and direct
relief to a part of the country on which it peculiarly
presses, and which suffers severely from the present dis-
tress. The hop fluty, too, is so local awl limited in its
operation, that its severity is felt with increased force.
The duties on printed cottons are very heavy, press most
unequally, and yield a revenue the cellection of which is
extremely expensive. Ireland is not affeited by them---
they press solely on England--and this consideration is of
much imporanee, seeing that Ireland is exempt front
12,000,000/. of the duties which press upon England.
Thee, sidee this, the duties on printed cottons are
levied by Ercise afficers with all the cumbrous machinery
of the Excite, and with all the oaths by which their col-
lection is usually ateended. The average amount of this
duty is about 2,000,000/., of which 1,500,000/. or
1.600,000/. is annually paid back on exportation: thus
the whole of these curnbrous and troublesome operations
are gene through for the sake of 400,0001., for that is
the averaue amount received by the Exchequer out of the
2 000,0001. levied. I know that there arc those in this
House, as there are out of it, who have no very friendly
feeling towards the cotton trade, and who regard it as a
moestrous evil, preying upon the vitals of the nation. But
the gi ant system has been created, and if not supported in
full health awl vigour, will consume the resources of the
state, amt, perhaps, ultimately bring it to the brink of
ruin. As it stands et present, however, it is the staple
article of our m inufactures, diffusing wealth among all
classes ; our duty therefore is, not to allow the continu-
ance ef any tax which interferes with its prosperity, ripe-
cially when that tax is so unproductive in amount and PO
expensive in collectioe. There is another tax to which I
hall now advert--I mean the tax upon leather. Cer-
tainly that tax is not very large in amount as compared
with the value of the ar:iele taxed—it is only three-half-
pence a pound upon the leather, while the value of that
leather is not above 15s. or 16s. a pound. But the na-
ture of the trade causes great inconvenience to arise from
this impost. No one can form any idea of the inconve-
niences thus arising who does not make himself practically
acquainted with the details. He who is a tanner cannot
become a currier—he must-carry on his business in a par-
ticular way. He must keep his hides a certain time in
the vat—so long, and no longer—he must try no experi-
ment—he must disregard all the discoveries of modern
science—chemistry becomes of no value to him. He must
go on in the same beaten routine—improvement is shut out
from his trade and endless vexations imposed upon it for
the sake of a paltry tax, from which the revenue derives
but little advantage. But repeal it, and you serve every
class of the community as consumers; you relieve the
agricultural class in particular, as producers of the article
taxed. Leather, hops, and printed cottons would be
somewhat upwards of a million. The removal of the tax
on sea-borne coals (which we understood the Noble Lord
to fix at 600,000/.) would also be a great public beneAt.
I should also recommend a modification of the duties on
beer, so as to give encouragement to the production and
consumption of strong beer. The effect of the present
system is to render the operations of the Excise, as respect'
beer, extremely complicated, and most inconveniently to
divide the business of brewing. Thus the man who
brews strong beer cannot brew intermediate ale or
small beer; and here, as every where else, comes in
the whole cumbrous and objectionable machinery of
oaths and penalties. The modification that I should re-
commend would have the effect of increasing the consump-
tion of malt, and affording relief to the agricultural
times. In the particular cases, then, my Lords, to which
I have adverted, I would say that relief can be af-
forded to the amount of 1,700,000/, and, as far as that
sum goes, it would be a substantial and beneficial relief,
and might be safely ventured on. I deplore, as deeply as
any man, the public distress, but the conviction of that
distress does not lead me to entertain those gloomy, miser-
able, and hopeless views which the Noble Lord endea-
voured to impress upon the House. All that the Noble
Lord recommends is inquiry, and he would have us believe
that there exists in the people a disposition to treat with
contempt the deliberations of the Legislature, and to
place confidence neither in its wisdom or good intentions.
In that course I cannot bring myself to concur with him•
There is one other point to which I have not yet adverted
—I mean the expected proceedings with respect to the
Charter of the East India Company. lam the furthest
in the world from wishing to anticipate the opinion of
Parliament upon this great question, but it cannot be
settled any how without great advantage to the public;
but in saying this, I say nothing as to the manner in which
it may be settled. Again, the present condition of Ire-
land is such as entitles us to hope that we shall get through.
our present difficulties with much more ease than through
any former crisis of a similar description. There must
be great present relief, and great ultimate good from the
state of Ireland. When I state that the contribution of
Ireland to the taxes of the country is only 3,800,000/.11
think it will be seen that there is much room for advance;
and when I call your Lordships' attention to the change
which has taken place in its condition, you will perceive
that there is every prospect of improvement. Looking,
then, upon this subject its I do, I feel bound to oppose the
motion of the Noble Earl, in the full confidence that his
Majesty's Government will apply their best energies to re-
move the existing evils.
The Duke of IIICHMOND bad never beard a more
convincing speech than that of the Noble Earl by whom
the present motion was brought forward. He would not
follow the Noble Viscount who had spoken last through
all the minute details into which he had entered, but he
would beg the House to remember that that Noble Vis-
count had admitted the general pressure of the distress,
though the Speech from the Throne, on the first day of
the Session, had distinctly stated that that distress wits
partial. Taxation was a self-evident cause of the distress,
and the distress was acknowledged to be universal ; yet
the very Nettle Lord by whom that universality was ad-
mitted told Parliament, in 1825, when he was Chancellor
of the Exchequer, that the financial condition of the
country was placed upon a rock, the foundation of which
could not be undermined. He was very glad to find
that the Noble Viscount had gained something by ex-
perience. The Government did not seam to have profited
in the same manner ; for he believed that with regard to
the question before the House, he really thought the Go-
vernment did not believe in the existence of general dis-
tress to the extent to which it was spread through the
country. Several causes had been stated by different
Noble Lords. First, it was stated that the rents of land
were to o high—if upon inquiry that which he did not be-
lieve should appear to be true, namely, that high rents
were one of the causes of the present distress, they might
depend upon it that the Country Gentlemen would
maintain their high character, and would cheerfully
sacrifice their own interest, and be the first to show
themselves ready to make endeavours to serve their
country at their own cost. He did not wish to use
strong expressions ; but as he had been in many parts
of the country a witness of the distress, be might speak
strongly without being liable to be supposed desirous of
exciting a spirit ho,tile to the Government. He would
assert that the condition of the people was most deplorable,
and he would ask any man in that House whether their
condition could remain as it was—and be would say as a
Peer of Parliament that it ought not to remain as it was.
—(Hear, hear.)—ln the part of the country with which
he was more particularly acquainted, he could assert that
men did not get remuneration for their labour as they
ought. In that part of the country the labouring men
were employed upon the roads at fourpence a day in some
instances, and in others at threepence a day, and were he-
sides obliged to find their tools.—(Hear, hear.)—Were
their Lordships prepared to say that such things could go
on? That was the case in Sussex; but was it the case
there alone? Was it not the same in Wiltshire and Dor.
setshire, and. indeed throughout the agricultural-districts ?
He did not believe that the distress of the labouring men
was owing to the farmers, who were themselves nearly
crushed by the difficulties of the times, by the taxes, by the
Wru
poor's-rates, and by the county-rates, all of which they
were hardly able to pay, and which were increasing every
day by general causes and by legislative enactments. These
men were loyal to their King, and obedient to the laws,
and they sought not to intimidate, but they asked from
their Lordships that inquiry which it seemed to him they
Thad an actual right to demand. Who was there that had
not read, and having read, did not feel deeply, those
which were seen every day in the newspapers--
that peasant a guiltless of any crime, were harnessed to
waggons,
wit-
nessed, not only in Chester, but in the very county in
which the Noble Duke at the head of the Government was
the principal land-owner. The distress, however, was not
confined to the agricultural districts. The manufacturing
interest was in the same state. It was impossible to read
hear. r . and)— degradedTiiscr cruel occurrence the
labour
u r
as of brutes.—.(Hear,
frequently
hear,
the newspapers without being convinced that the manufac-
turers were suffering to a very considerable extent. He
would, however, give some proofs of the existence of that
;the fin' he was sure that if the Noble Duke at the
Government believed in its existence as he did.
tireat(l ofs sinequiry now sought for would be at once granted.—
His Grace here read some paragraphs front one or more
newspapers, but did not give the name of the journal from
which they were taken. The first stated that there had
boot as agreement to blow out fifteen blast furnaces; but
tt
oh at
rethvoenugththte
the
further had comeinere increase eo
ft o
athis a resolution,n ufactt,
re f inor wordh which
there wins no market, it was much to be doubted whether
the measure would relieve the distress, for what was to be- •