The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1837.

the Legislature had now no option upon the subject —that
having once been introduced, the measure must of necessity be
carried. He ( Sir Robert Peel) certainly thought that the
Legislature was bound to consider the question of Poor-laws
for Ireland ; but if he were told because the matter had been
broached, that therefore it must at once be proceeded with,
and that the exercise of no discretion was to be left to the
House, he begged to reply, that he totally dissented from that
doctrine.—( Hear, bear.) He did not believe that by the mere
proposal of the measure any such expectation of undoubted re-
lief would be excited in the minds of the people of Ireland as
to take from the Legislature all discretion upon the subject
( Hear, hear.) A part of the Noble Lard's proposal was the
building of workhouses. If a hundred workhouses were built,
he (Sir Robert Peel) begged to ask what would be the ave-
rage area of square miles over which each district in which
such workhouses was situated would extend ?
Lord J. RUS SE L L —Twenty square miles.
Lord 110 WICK (we believe)—Each district will be twenty
miles square.
Sir R. PEEL—There is a vast difference between twenty
square miles and twenty miles square; let me understand dis-
tinctly which is intended ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—Twenty miles square.
Sir R. PE EL resumed—That would comprise a space of
four hundred square miles. Then again, did the Noble Lord
propose that one portion of a family seeking relief should be
admitted into the workhouse, and that other portions should
be permitted to work, or beg, or do as they pleased ; or, as
a condition to relief, must the whole of the family he admitted
at once ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—It is proposed that no relief shall be
afforded to one member of a family unless the whole be at the
same time admitted to the workhouse.
Sir ROBERT PE EL thought the Noble Lord would find
that that system would not adopt itself to the other p-ovi-
sions of the Bill. This proposition, of course, was founded
on the success which was supposed to have attended the
workhouse system in England. He felt that in the present
condition of Ireland there was no time for delay; but he
thought it much to be regretted that greater experience of
the practical working of the system in England had not been
obtained. As regarded the introduction of Poor-laws into
Ireland, too, it must be remembered that the situation of that
country, as compared with England, was widely different.
England was a country which had been subject to a system
of Poor-laws for 300 years, in the course of which time many
grievous abuses had crept in, and much difficulty had existed
in removing them. Ireland was a country in which as yet
no system of Poor-laws had ever existed. It was inferred
from the partial experience of the last two years that the new
workhouse system had worked well in England ; but he (Sir
Robert Peel) did not think the last two years a fair test by
which to judge of the operation of the system. During the
whole of that time there had been a great demand for
labour in consequence of the great works undertaken in this
country by the enterprise of private individuals. The system,
therefore, had come into operation under very great advan-
tages.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord stated that he would make
no distinction in Ireland between the claims that arose from
impotency and those which arose from destitution, and he
added that he thought no valid distinction could be drawn be-
tween the two. He (Sir R. Peel) was willing to give the
point every consideration ; but, speaking from the present im-
pression of his mind, he must say that lie thought there was a
most material distinction to be drawn between claims arising
from lameness, blindness, disease, and extreme old age, where
it was evident there were few opportunities of frail, and claims
arising from destitution, which in many cases might be real,
but in others might be feigned, or the result of indolence or
improvidence. If the system of an extensive dispensary wete
established, at which the blind, the lame, and the extremely old
should be the only claimants for relief, there would be no risk
of false claims; and any system adopted in Ireland ought un-
doubtedly to afford instant and substantial relief to all that
class of persons. But the moment the claims of the able-
bodied man were admitted on account of destitution, from ina-
bility to find work, from that instant all test was abandoned by
which to ascertain whether the claims were valid or not. The
Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) was very confident the work-
house system would afford an effectual check to false claims;
and upon that point he had quoted the testimony and opinion of
Mr. Nicholls. He (Sir IL Peel) was as fully disposed as the
Noble Lord to attach great weight to the opinion of that gen-
tleman ; but at the same time he thought hiss experience of
die working of the English Bill must be too brief to enable
him to speak with any certainty as to what the probable
operation of a similar system would be in Ireland. But con-
sider what these workhouses would be in the centre of an area
of 400 square miles. The advantage of the workhouse sys-
tem in England was, that it afforded an immediate test of
the validity of the claimants. How, embracing so vast a
district, could it afford a similar test in Ireland? He feared,
too, if the workhouses should become popular in Ireland,
that those who lived in the immediate neighbourhood would
have the prior claim, so as to prevent those who lived at
the greater distance of ten or twenty miles from any chance
of admission at all. Therefore, if a rigid law were laid down
that no relief should be given except an admission to
the workhouse, he was afraid the remedy proposed would be
found in practice to be a very partial one. The Noble Lord
had stated, that all those who could not obtain relief within
the workhouses would be at liberty to wander about and
beg. Was it impossible—had the Government determined
in their own thoughts upon the impossibility of mixing up
with the workhouse system some system of domiciliary re-
lief ?—( Hear, bear.) The great disadvantage of the work-
house system was its inflexibility. Might not that disad-
vantage be obviated in some degree by the establishment of
a system of domiciliary relief combined with it? As he had
stated before, be wished to give this measure his cordial sup-
port, and he should undoubtedly do so, if, in the course
of the further discussions upon it, he should feel con-
vinced that the workhouse system was inseparable from the
introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland. All that he was
afraid of was, that by the rigid rule of excluding every
claim to relief unless administered within the walls of
_

the workhouse, and of allowing vagrancy to be sane-
tioned by the law, very little practical good would be
effected. The Noble Lord stated that the workhouses would
not be filled, because the natural affection of the Irish
people would induce them to support their poorer and more
destitute relatives. In that case, he ( Sir Robert Peel)
thought they would not relieve the class of persons who
stood most in need of it. If that feeling obtained generally in
Ireland, and if this system were adopted, be feared that the
pressure of charity would fall most heavily on those who were
least capable of bearing it. But at that time, and in that early
stage of the proceedings, he would not extend his observations.
He gave every credit to the Government for bringing the mat-
ter forward.—( Hear, hear.) As far as be was personally con-
cerned, ho was disposed in every way to labour towards, ho
would not say the literal adoption of the measure as it was
then proposed to them, but towards the introduction of a sound
system of Poor-laws into Ireland, by which the suffering poor
of that country might be relieved, without entailing upon them
and upon the richer classes such heavy evils as had arisen in
England from an indiscriminate application of relief.—( Hear,
hear.) With that feeling he should address himself to this
measure with exactly the same,zeal as if it had been introduced
by his own friends.—( Cheers) _ .

Mr. JAMES GRATTAN" thanked the Noble Lord most
sincerely for the measure he had brought forward. He be-
lieved it to be essentially necessary to the welfare of Ireland,
and with that view he should give it his most cordial support.
He believed that the adoption of a system of Poor-laws in
Ireland would be attended with this great benefit—namely,
that it would induce many of the absentee landlords to return
to Ireland and reside on their estates.—( Hear. )
Lord STANLEY cordially agreed with the Hon. Gentle-
man who last addressed the House, that it was an important
question, and the all-important question as regarded Ireland,
to adopt such measures as would compel the absentee proprie-
tors who had estates in that country to take upon themselves—
he would not say to supply by a pecuniary aid (for it would be
impossible by any merely pecuniary assistance to remedy the
evils resulting from the absence of the proprietors of estates)
—the performance of such duties, and of giving such assistance,
for which, in his conscience, he believed they were responsi-
ble.—( Hear, hear.) He came forward to express his opinion
on the subject as a landlord and as a proprietor of land in Ire-
land, necessarily at times liable to the name of an absentee ;
but it had been his earnest endeavour since he had been con-
nected with property in Ireland to supply that duty which was
incumbent on him—(Heer, hear)—and he could fairly say
that he had never shrunk from the performance of that obli-
gation which was imposed on him. He would at once say,
disregarding any short-sighted view of the question, that with
regard to this question he was perfectly ready to take his full
share, as an Irish landlord, of the burden which it was pro-
posed
to impose on him.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
who bad introduced the measure said that he had two objects
in view ; in the first place, giving the landlords an interest in
the good management of their estates; and in the next place,
which was the most important part of it, making such provi-
sion as would put a stop to the frightful system of vagrancy
and mendicity that prevailed in the country. With regard to
the second of these points, it was impossible for any man
having the least experience of Ireland to lessen the import-
ance of that most general and far-spread pest of society in
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to speak in terms
too strong of the evils resulting from the state of vagrancy
which prevailed generally throughout the country. With re-
ference to the means to be adopted to get rid of this system
was relief to be afforded without distinction in all classes of
vagrancy, whether caused by idleness, or resulting from mis-
fortune and circumstances over which the parties had no con-
trol ?—( Hear, hear.) The mischievous poison of the system
had distilled evil itself into the bosom of society in Ireland ;
it had led to the most baneful consequences ; it had engen-
dered a system of utter disregard to consequences ; it bad re-
moved the strongest checks to improvidence ; it had thus tended
more than anything else to impoverish and deteriorate the
condition of the people ; and therefore to get rid of an evil of
such magnitude, if it were necessary to impose a tax—whether
it amounted to half a million, a million, or even two millions—
was a matter of little or no consequence.—( Hear, hear.) On
all occasions, when mere abstract resolutions had been moved
in that House similar to that which had been proposed that
night, namely, that it was expedient that a Poor-law should be
introduced into Ireland, lie bad felt, whether sitting as a
member of the Government, or on the opposite side of the
House, that they were liable to objections on the ground of
their vagueness, and at the same time pledging the House to
principles which,l at the time, were not fully felt and appre-
ciated. He thought also that by pursuing this course they
were creating expectations which could not be fulfilled, and
that they were exaggerating evils which ought not to be ex-
cited on such a question as this, and thus evil had been done
when they were most anxious to do good. He admitted, how-
ever, that the circumstances of the case were altered, when there
was a specific plan brought into view by the Government, on
its responsibility, and grounded on a mature consideration
of the subject.—(Hear, hear.) He, as a landlord, felt grate-
ful to the Government for having taken upon themselves

the trouble and responsibility of introducing this important
subject.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend (Lord John Rus-
sell) and his colleagues were folly sensible of the difficul-
ties they had brought upon theituelves by taking up the mat-
ter--( Hear, hear, hear)—and ht trusted that the subject
would be followed out to a satisfactory termination. For his
own part it would be his duty, as well as pleasure, to give
all his exertions to carry out this neasure, without pledging
himself to all its details, to a successful result.—(Hear,
hear.) He had alluded to the st.te of vagrancy in Ireland,
and was anxious to offer some oteervations on the subject
to the House. It had been argued by gentlemen who spoke
against allowing compulsory relief, that by doing so you would
check the flow of private benevolence in Ireland. He would
speak as an Englishman who had ived in Ireland, and had
seen much of the people and (*awry. He could say with-
out hesitation, that he had seen instances of self-devo-
tion on the part of the peasantry of that country which
ho was sure could not he met with elsewhere; he had re-
peatedly met with sacrifices, for the purpose of benevo-
lence and charity, of all the little comforts they possessed
without reflection or hesitation, which reflected the highest
credit on the humblest classes in Ireland.—( Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") They considered that unfortunate vagrants
were entitled to command relief at their hands, and without
hesitation they brought them to their own houses to share the
same humble shelter and food as the owner was enabled to af-
ford to his family.—(Hear, hear.) He would tell Hon. Mem-
bers that this was not a rare occurrence in Ireland—( Hear)—
it was not a casual event, but it vas a matter of daily and
constant occurrence--( Hear, hear)—and be it recollected
that the persons who afforded this aid were themselves steeped
to the lips in poverty.—( Hear, hear.) Let the House sup-
pose the case of a poor widow left deserted, with a large fa-
mily, and surrounded with those who hardly knew how to get
their bread from day to day, yet in such a district there could
not be found a house in which the widow would not find a
refuge--nay, more, he would venture to say that there was
not a poor family who would refuse to charge themselves with
a permanent share of expense towards the support of this fa-
mily, and this even to an extent beyond their means. Would
he check this system of benevolence ? He honoured too highly
the benevolence thus manifested—he felt too much as a Chris-
tian the nature of the feelings from whence it emanated—to
endeavour to check the sacred flow of it.—(Hear.) But
looking at the matter as a statesman, regarding also the state
of the country, and looking to the habits of the people, and
recollecting also the necessity of engendering habits of fore-
sight, he felt satisfied that the Legislature must not force on
the poor peasantry of the country such a share of the charge
of supporting those who were absolutely destitute. —( Hear,
hear.) High and exalted virtues undoubtedly they were ;
and the more high and exalted because unseen and unknown.
—(Hear, hear.) But, while admitting this, it was the duty
of the House to recollect that the practice of those virtues
produced in the minds of the population a sense that it was
not necessary to look to the future, or to make provision be-
yond the present moment. No doubt this state of things re-
sulted from feelings of a high origin, but if it were not
checked by law it produced abuses in the law, and led to the
existence of the greatest evils in the country.—( Hear, hear.)
It led to the most pernicious system of imprudence in the
habits of the peasantry, and it induced them to give
away their last halfpenny, or potato, without knowing
where they could supply their own wants and those of their
families.—( Loud cries of Hear, hear.) This overstrained and
exaggerated character .of benevolence arose from the pe-
culiar circumstances of the country ; for they could not tell
they might not themselves fall into this state of destitution.
He saw in this the strongest reason not to strain those feel-
ings, but by doing so the exercise of them might prove injuri-
ous to the social system. Therefore he was prepared to say,
let us adopt some system of relief for the utterly destitute.—
(Hear, hear.) He contended that in such a state of things as
at present existed in Ireland the State should interfere, and
say to the struggling cottagers of Ireland, " You shall not share
beyond your means ; your richer neighbours shall also contri-
bute their share towards the relief of the most destitute."—
(Cheers.) lie agreed also with his Majesty's Government,
that the utterly destitute should alone be relieved. He was
aware that the most exaggerated anticipations, as well as the
most extravagant feelings of alarm, were held by different
parties as to what would be the result of the adoption of Poor-
laws in Ireland. One party looked upon it as imposing a
burden which would swallow up all the property in Ireland.
It possibly might do so, if they did not look carefully to the
operation of the working of the system. On the other
hand, they were told that a system of Poor-laws would at once
lead to the investment of capital in Ireland, to the general
employment of the poor, and to a higher rate of wages; it was
the duty of that House to do all that could be done by legis-
lation to promote these ends.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile could
not, however, help observing that these exaggerated feelings
held on one hand and the other had been attended with the
most injurious effects. He had no such strong feelings of an-
ticipation as to its benefits ; he participated in no such feelings
of alarm as had been described.—(Hear.) He thought that
much good might be effected by the adoption of a judicious
and sound system. He was persuaded that the destitution to
command relief must be absolute, entire, and hopeless—such
destitution must be alone the limit of the law.—( Hear.)
They must on no account hold out expectations of relieving the
man who with a few acres of land WdS distressed because he
had agreed to pay an amount for rent which he was not able
to pay. __(Hear, hear.) The adoption of a plan by which re-
lief would be afforded to this class would indeed be a confisca-
tion of all the landed property in Ireland. Such a system
would be as a relief to the individual himself; it would not
lead to a great degree of providence for the future, but it
would hold out a similar and even a stronger inducement than
at present to this class, to make the most improvident and
absurd bargains ; at the same time it would ruin the land-
lords, and make the conduct of the peasantry still more
thoughtless than at present.--(Hear, hear.) Now, with re-
spect to the dangers which they had to look to. The danger
which resulted from the late Poor-laws in England was, that
there was a systematic laxity in their administration beyond
all example, which produced scenes of evil of which all men
were witnesses, and which necessarily led to the adoption of
a check in their administration, which, by a gradual and care-
ful mode of proceeding, would no doubt lead to a great im-
provement. In Ireland, however, they had to proceed from
opposite series of change. In this country it had been found
necessary to contract as much as possible the system of relief;
so in Ireland it was necessary to set out from the other end
of the series, and they must make rules and regulations
which they would be able to enlarge.—( Hear, hear.) Ile said
this, not from any wish to take from the peasantry or pauper
population of Ireland any advantage enjoyed by the pauper
population of England. The House must see how far it was
necessary to make restrictions in the one country in the
system already in force, and how far they were enabled to
relax in the other country.—( Hear, hear.) In adopting,
therefore, Poor-laws for Ireland, care must be taken that they
did not go on the opposite line to that which he had just al-
luded to. Thus they should have a narrow system of relief
in the first instance, which could be enlarged afterwards. His
Noble Friend proposed to limit relief to the workhouse sys-
tem. In principle he was induced to agree with his Noble
Friend ; but he thought it necessary to see what this system
should be. He did not think that any great inconvenience
would result from having these large workhouses in large
towns ; but he did not think that this would be altogether the
case in agricultural districts. In the first instance, many per-
sons might be induced to subject themselves to the confine-
ment and restraint which necessarily existed in a workhouse,
with a view of obtaining a sufficiency of food and clothing,
but the feelings of restraint and confinement were so ad-
verse to anything like Irish feelings and habits—( Hear,
hear, hear)—that if the workhouse was found to be a
great check in England in inducing the poorer classes to
depend on their own exertions instead of resorting to the
parish, it would be found to be a still more powerful check in
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Those great inducements in the
shape of good living, clothing, and lodging would not have
near the same effect in Ireland as in England.—( Hear, hear.)
In speaking of a workhouse system, it is necessary to exa-
mine how the workhouses are to be distributed. He did not
wish to trouble the House at such length ; but when a great
measure was introduced, in which no party feelings were in-
volved on one side or the other, be thought that it would be
advisable to throw out at once such suggestions as occurred
to him as to any difficulties that might appear in the work-
ing of it. He, confessed that he had doubts and hesitations
as to some parts or the' proposed Plan, and therefore what he
then stated were Observations which he trusted would not be
considered as binding upon him. His Noble Friend had told
the House that one of the chief objects of the Bill was the
making provisions for the relief of destitute vagrants. Un-
less they meant completely and decidedly to put a stop to and
prevent vagrancy, they could not be successful in effecting
their object. To attain this end it would be absolutely neces-
sary that there should be workhouses within such a distance of
each other that the infirm and aged could readily reach the
workhouse without having to pass a great distance through the
country.---( Hear.) If you do not get rid of this system of
vagrancy you do not get rid of the great evil which now exists
in Ireland ; and to effect this object it was absolutely neces-
sary that the workhouses should not be at too great distances
apart. If he understood his Noble Friend correctly, the work-
houses were to be twenty miles apart ; that was, that each
workhouse should be in the centre of a square, the radius of
which, if he might use the expression, was ten miles. He did
not speak mathematically, but he believed he was correct.
Lords J. RUSSELL and H 0 WIC K severally made some
observations across the table, which were not audible.
Lord STANLEY proceeded to state that he believed his
Noble Friend had two objects in view in the erection of these
large workhouses. By having them on a large scale his
Noble Friend believed that by a system of contract the pau-
pers would be supported at a less expense, and also that the
cost of superintendence would be diminished. But his Noble
Friend had, at the same time, kept out of view what, in his
(Lord Stanley's) opinion, could not but prove to be a great
evil—he meant the difficulty of getting in Ireland proper
persons to act on the board of guardians. His Noble
Friend might reply that even by reducing the distance be-
tween the workhouses to five miles, they would still have to
contend with the same difficulties in finding fit persons to act.
But the difficulty was not diminished by increasing the size
of the district ; for it did not follow that because you could
not get ten persons in half the distance, that you could get
twenty persons in the proposed distance. His Noble Friend
must be aware that the very extent of some of the unions in
England was productive of a great deal of mischief. Some
persons, the most proper to act as guardians of the poor,
would not go out day after day and week after week to a consi-
derable distance to attend the meetings of the board. This
would more- especially be the oase in a country in a distracted
state ; and he was satisfied. that in many parts of Ireland, on
this ground, many gentlemen would decline going to a distance
from their homes to attend board meetings. There were also
different motives operating to induce gentlemen to take upon
themselyes these offices in tfie two countries. The object in
England was to reduce a great burden, but in Ireland, by car-