The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-06 00:00:00

expense—very considerable responsibility on the part of
the Government, and cannot but greatly interfere with
existing interests. Take, for instance, the paper trade ;
take the re-organization of many of the existing Post-
offices. All these things must be considered ; and
would the Government, I would ask, be warranted
in taking any of those steps without the authority of
Parliament ? I say, that the Government would not be
justified in taking such a step, even if they had a sur-
plus revenue, without the authority of Parliament ; it
would be indecorous, it would be indefensible, if the
Government were to take such a course, If the Go-
vernment had a surplus revenue of 5,000,000/. it would
not be justified in taking such a step without the autho-
rity of Parliament, and without its undertaking to make
up the deficiency. That is my justification for coming
to Parliament on the present occasion. I will now pro-
ceed to state the powers I want under the present reso-
lution ; I shall want to take for the Treasury
a power—they have now the power of re-
ducing postage at their will and pleasure—
I want that the House should give them the power of
increasing postage. It may appear whimsical that that
power should be required to carry into effect my reso-
lution, but I shall be enabled very shortly to convince
the House of that necessity. Hon. Gentlemen know
that there is at the present moment a penny post esta-
blished in various parts of England. Those posts are
analogous to the twopenny post in London ; letters not
exceeding four ounces go by those conveyances, and I
cannot adopt a uniform rate of postage unless Parlia-
ment gives to the Treasury the power, if necessary, of
increasing those penny posts. Because you will see
that in order to have a uniformity I must reduce these
rates to the proper scale to be established in another
way. At the same time I wish to take this opportu-
nity of correcting a mis-statement which is
abroad, that the intended new penny postage is
intended to be paid in addition to the exist-
ing penny postage. No such thing is intended
it would be perfectly inconsistent with the whole Ar-
rangement.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore the first power
I want is a power to increase the postage. I want,
secondly, the power to direct the taking of the postage
by anticipation, and I want also a power of allowing
that postage to be taken under a Treasury authority
through means of stamped "covers—( Hear, hear)—and
want that power to rate the postage according to the
weight, in place of rating it according to the single and
double sheet. These are the powers I want by my
Bill, but, inasmuch as they are very large discretionary
powers (although we have them already to a certain
Ltxtent), I propose that they should be exercised by
Treasury warrants, copies of which are to be laid on
the table of the House, and that these warrants are
ally to stand good up to the end of the next Session of
Parliament, so as to reserve the whole controul of this
measure in the course of the next Session of Parliament
'or its confirmation. Sir, I know that I am asking a
very large Treasury authority—l know that it is one
which the House may not be willing to give, but I
only ask it upon the understanding that it is only
to hold good up to the end of the neft Session
if Parliament, but rendering legislation upon
the subject necessary in the course of the next Ses-
sion. This, Sir, is the object of the Bill I mean to in-
troduce. There is this other power required if we are
'o collect the revenue through the medium of stamps.
We must take a power for the Stamp department to
make these stamps, because they are not likely to pay
the expense, and we must have a power of providing for
that expense, so as to make the Stamp revenue avail-
Ale for Post-office purposes. The House may expect
me to state to them what Amount of loss may be look( .d
Lo from this alteration. Sir, I shall not go into a mi-
nute analysis of this subject, because it must be at best
mere matter of conjecture. Nothing definitive can be
said in the way of demonstration, although Hon. Gen-
tlemen may of course assume any given amount of cor-
respondence to arise. It appears to me, however, that
no ingenuity of man can predicate upon a sub-
ect like this what the amount of letters
may be. But lam oound to state it to the Committee,
and to the House, and to the public, that my own an-
ticipations at the outset are that the loss will be very,
very considerable indeed.---(Hear, hear.) I am, of
course, anxious that my resolution shall be carried, but I
feel myself bound to state, and cannot disguise the fact,
that the loss at the outset will be very considerable in-
deed. lam the more bound to state this, becauip if I
did not, and hereafter there. were a considerable loss,
and the House and the public had not bad this warning,
they and you might have said I deluded you into the
vote, which now you cannot do. Mr. Hill, in his evi-
dence before the Committee—he is the projector of the
plan, and of course is not disposed to undervalue its
merits—he said the loss might be 400,0001. I wish I
could believe that the loss to the public
would be no greater ; but, on the con-
trary, I feel quite sure that it will far ex-
,teed that sum, for the effect of it will, in the first
Mace, be to diminish the receipts, while for a time it
must increase the expense. Be, however, the loss great
or small by my Bill, the House is bound to mae it
good. It has been suggested to me that I have no
means of making the House fulfil its pledge—it has
been said to me—you may carry your measure—a great
loss is the result, you read to the House the resolution
it will come to and you propose a tax—those who voted
for the resolution will oppose that tax. Now for one
moment I will not give credit to such a thing. I
believe gentlemen will act honestly and frankly in sup-
porting the pledge—if there are any gentleman who are
indisposed to redeem the pledge, let them state it at
once—let them move to expunge it from the resolution
and stand alone—but if they vote for the resolution,
and a Bill embodying that resolution, I hope, and I
have no doubt they will perform their duty to the
House, to the public, and to their own honour.
Then the next part of the subject is our own
franking system. In one sense we have now
the privilege of obliging a friend, but upon all
other grounds, there is not one gentleman in the
House who would not willingly abandon it.—(Cheers.)
As to any franking at a penny postage, the gentle-
man who wishes it must either have a great respect for
the privilege, or a greater love of money than I could
suppose any one here has.—(Laughter.) With respect
to official franking, my notion is that, with some very few
exceptions, every great department should pay its own
postage.—(Cheers,) Sir, I now conclude, very sincerely
thanking the Committee for the indulgence they have
afforded me ; and assuring them that if they affirm the
proposition 1 submit to them, it is the intention of Go-
vernment to give the fullest and most entire effect to
the Bill, which shall be thereupon carried—( Hear, hear)
—with an anxious desire for the success of the mea
sure—with the greatest caution in respect to the inte-
rests affected—and the most attentive care that the
measure is brought to maturity, before it is attempted
to bring it into operation. I now beg to move the re-
solution which you, Sir, have in your hand.—(Cheers.)
Mr. GOULBU RN felt considerable difficulty in
addressing the House, arising from the course which
the Right Hon. Gentleman had thought proper to
adopt, in bringing forward, upon a resolution involving
a great change in one of the most important branches
of our financial system—the general statement of our
finances. The resolution itself was of sufficient impor-
tance to justify its being made the subject of separate
discussion, without its being made the vehicle for com-
municating the whole financial statement of the year—
a statement which, taken by itself, presented ample
ground for discussion, and required, far more than this
particular resolution, the earnest attention of Parlia-
ment. He (Mr. Goulburn) had on this occasion a very
irksome duty to perform—for he should be called upon
to repeat principles which he had long been endeavour-
ing, though unsuccessfully, to inculcate upon the House
in respect to the general subject of our finances, but
which, he trusted, would ultimately enforce a serious con-
sideration. In the few observations which he meant to
address to the House, he should as closely as possible
follow the example set by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He should begin, therefore, by addressing himself to
that part of the speech which applied to the financial
situation of the :country at the present moment, and
which pointed out what had been the expenditure and
receipts, and what were to be the expenditure
and receipts of the year. He should have
been better pleased if the usual vote had been proposed
in the Committee of Ways and Means, by which the
Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to make up the defi-
ciency, that being the proper vote to be taken on a
question of this nature, and therefore affording an op-
portunity to enter into an ample discussion on the po-
licy which he was pursuing—an opportunity which the
present resolution would hardly afford. The Right
Hon. Gentleman began by saying, that whereas in
former years it had been the custom of the House of
Commons to be very vigilant in the expenditure of
money, that now the state of things was changed, and
the House was foremost in urging on the Government
additional expense. He ( Mr. G.) had not seen the
tendency of which the Hon. Gentleman complained.
If there had been an undue desire to increase establish-
ments, had there not been some reason why the House
should entertain such an opinion, from the
establish-
ments not having been kept in a proper state of vigour
If there had been sent out in proper time proper forces
to the North American Provinces to check the proceed-
ings of those who were
payat that
advantage of our weakness the re, we should not now
have been called upon tom
nearlyti ae
disposed
million
and t °
a take
half'
of money ; and this was certainly an occasion upon
which Members ought to express their opinions upon a
subject of such vital importance. xis Right Hon.
Friend bad gone through the several items of expenditure
and receipts, as estimated by him, with actual expendi-
ture and receipts, upon which he had little to observe
He would not pretend to say there was anything in hig.
Right Hon. Friend's calculations which subjected him
to censure, though he concurred in regretting the re-
sult. In alluding,
however, to the increased expendi.
ture under our navy and army estimates, Lis -Right
Hon. Friend complained there was a disposition in the
House to incur a debt without reflecting upon the
means by. which that debt was to be paid, Tilat feel-
ing certainly prevailed, but in proportion as he (Mr.
G.) conceived that notion to be dangerous to the best
interests of the country, it Was the duty of the Govern-
ment (2 iet themselves against giving cause for any

EVENING EDITION.

ground to rest that opinion upon. He heard his Right
Hon. Friend with astonishment say we had a surplus of
140,0001., but that if we opposed to that a statement
of extraordinary expenditure, which he thought would
be required for Canada, there would be left a deficiency
of not less than 860,0001. or 870,000/. His Right
Honourable Friend, however, said that this was not
likely to be a permanent diminution. What right had
he to make such a statement ? The statement of his
Right Hon. Friend in 1837, in 1838, and now in 1839,
was that this was a temporary deficiency not calculated
to justify the imposition of taxation, but of a debt ; and
thus we were to go on from year to year without equal-
izing the expenditure and reeeipts. His '200,0001.,
which was the utmost surplus his best calculation would
afford him, would soon melt away, and then he would
again have to call upon the House to assist him in that
worst of all taxation, namely, raising the amount of the
deficiency by issuing the amount in Exchequer Bills.—
( Hear, hear.) In looking at the financial state of the
country, if we went back for the last 10 years, what did
we find ? In 1831 the charge of our public debt, funded
and unfunded, was 28,400,0004 ; in 1831 it was just
1,000,000/. more.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—
There was the slavery payment.
Mr. GOULBURN hoped his Right Hon. Friend
would not think that the slavery payment was the sole
cause of this. To be sure, there had been an addition of
700,000/. on account of the slaves, but was there nothing
to be set oil' against that? Had there been no fallings in ?
Had they not reduced a portion of the funded debt? Had
they not obtained a large diminution of charge from the
Bank ? And yet, independently of all those and other
fallings in, such was the present state of the charge of
our public debt. He must admit that, the surplus re-
venue of late years had produced no effect ; and why ?
Because instead of being bona fide applied to the reduc-
tion of our debt, it had been applied in buying up the
deficiency bills. He would, therefore, call upon the House
not to encourage by their silence the system upon which
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had administered for
the last three years our financial affairs. He now said
he would provide for the deficiency by an extended cir-
culation of Exchequer bills ; but if he recollected the
discussion which had been before the House in former
times, he must feel some impropriety in making that
proposition. It was true he had, after admoni-
tions or suggestions made a considerable reduc-
tion of the Exchequer bills, by means partly
of the surplus acquired in one of the years,
and partly by the application of the money in the
Savings Banks. Upon the application of money
in the Say ings Banks to the Exchequer Bills, he would
at present say nothing, because all those points only
diverted the attention from the main subject at issue,
namely, the consequence of persevering in our present
system. The view he had always taken was, that if the
House would only maintain a certain surplus over the
expenditure, there would be some hope of making an
impression on the debt of the country, and they ought
never to forget the time must come when they would
have to deal with a capital of no less than 160,000,0001.
of money. While, however, they proceeded with the
present system, they would not only he unable
to reduce the debt, but must go on augment-
ing it. In the course of next year a great
portion of that debt would be open to be
dealt with by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but in
the meantime, if he embarrassed himself with a larger
amount of Exchequer bills and of floating capital, he
certainly would not take the most legitimate mode of
applying himself to the reduction of the debt ; and by
his manner of proceeding he would deprive the country of
the advantages which, under other circumstances, it
would have a right to expect to enjoy. He had stated
his feelings and views of the system of the Chancellor of ,
the Exchequer. It might be necessary on some future
day to have the subject more fuily discussed, but at pre-
sent he begged to offer a few observations on the Reso-
tion, which was the main subject of to-nights' discussion
—he mean the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend to
deal with the Post-office, and to change the whole mode
of arrangement of that establishment, for the purpose of
effecting what the Right Hon. Gentleman had consi-
dered a facility of the transmission of letters, and, he
(Mr. G.) would admit, that which was calculated to give
great gratification to almost every class of the commu-
nity. He would admit it was no trifling consideration
to hazard a million and a-half of revenue which, though
it might not have increased either in proportion to the
increasing population of the country, or in proportion to
the augmenting wealth and industry of the country, it was, '
to be considered as a certain income. If his Right
Hon. Friend had had the surplus for which be (Mr.
G.) would contend, he for one would concur in the im-
mediate propriety of effecting a change in that depart-
ment, and he would say, after considering the Reports of
the Committee on the subject, if the experiment was to
be made at all it ought to be made to the full extent pro-
posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman—(Cheers)--and
that the suggestion of the Committee—for he could not
dispute his own opinion upon it—ought nottobe adopted,
that it ought to he twopence instead of a penny.--
( Renewed cheering.) The whole tendency of the evi- g
dence was to show that the smallest augmentation was
likely to defeat the whole measure, and that the two-
penny postage might fail, whilst the penny one was likely
to succeed.—( Hear, hear.) He also agreed with the
Right Hon. Gentleman, that if this measure was to be
adopted, it ought to be a general one.—( Hear, hear.)
But there was another question of still greater impor-
tance to be considered. The Right Hon. Gentleman
proposed to pledge the House by resolution, that Par-
liament should make good any deficiency which the
adoption of the measure might occasion. He (Mr.
Goulburn) believed that at the end of the year there
would be a deficiency of from 500,0004 to 1,000,000!.,
although it might not be so great another year.-_
(Hear, hear.) When the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman came down next year to ask for a tax,
to make up the deficiency, the answer would most pro-
bably be that the people were taxed too much already
—(Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer
ought to have stated what duty he intended to propose,
in order to keep up the revenue, which was dwindling
away by degrees.—(Hear, hear.) There was a great
difference between the exchange and the imposition of
taxation, and be was confident that the resolution
would only be adding to the many pledges which had
already been broken. Although he agreed to the intro-
duction of the resolution, he held himself at liberty to
resist every other part of the proceedings which should
abandon:that amount of revenue without having from
the House a distinct measure by which the revenue was
to be raised to provide for the deficiency which the re-
duction of the postage would occasion.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME had listened with great attention to
what had fallen from the Right Hon. (Nentleman,and
would state how far he concurred with him. It
might be thought venturesome to propose a change so
important, but he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman
was not likely to risk one-half, or one-third of the
sum mentioned.—(Hear.) There was no instance
in any country where a postage bad been reduced in
which the revenue had not considerably increased.
(Hear.) There might be a deficiency in the first year,
but, taking the first and second years together, he did
not think the deficiency would exceed what it had been
estimated at, and the experiment was so important that
he considered the Chancellor of the Exchequer fully
justified in making it. Whatever might be the deficiency,
be was sure the country would meet it fairly, whenever
it might arise. It did not follow, however, as a matter
of course, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should
find it necessary to impose any new tax, because he had
provided most liberally for the large establishments of
the country. In 1835, the Army, Navy, and other
Estimates, amounted to 13,800,0004 ; whilst, for the
present year they were estimated at 16,250,0004 ; and
he hoped that circumstances might arise to enable such
a reduction to be made as would meet the loss occa-
sioned. He should not vote against the resolution, but
considered it to be of no use whatever to pledge
the House to any particular course.—(Hear, hear.)
He had been very anxious that the Budget should be
brought forward, because since the year 1825 there had
been ao instance so late as July, except in one or two

the
fiinasataaneciaelsy,
eaanrd
ht ha
de cahaat npgrea
dwahciecdit
thhaed
rbee es
anl t
am
which
de in
been anticipated—(Hear)—for every one anticipated
that the financial statement would then be made in the
,uoeoroboilolsl,.
month of April at the latest, before the grants were all
wshinieche last year, byeeearn, in
made.—( Hear.) He had also looked with great anxiety
that year they were only 24,000,0001., but they now
exceeded 25,000,000/. He thought that he had a
oerneatisieedsubybjeucptwo,afrdEslcoir 1
right to complain of the conduct of the Government the
other night with respect to his motion relative to the
Bank of England ; for what had they done? Why,
instead of being in their places in that House, they did
all they could to get the House counted out, in order to
prevent its being brought on. He viewed with alarm
the situation in which the credit of the country
was placed, particularly if the Honourable Gentle-
man was to be allowed to go on adding to the
amount of Exchequer Bills. Upon what authority,
he would ask, could the Right Honourable Gentleman
expect to see the expenses of the country diminished ?
Nothing was settled for Canada. If the Government
had given Canada a proper form of Government the
whole expense of the military force there might have
been spared. What had taken place a few days ago
with respect to the Exchequer bills? Why, if he had
been rightly informed they bad been at a discount.—
(" No, no.") The whole pressure of the banking inte-
rest of England was now resting on the Bank of Eng.
land, and in what situation was that establishment
placed ? Why, according to the last average returns,
the amount of bullion in that establishment amounted
to only 4,500,0001. He would ask, under such circum-
stances, with the pressure of a paper circulation, whe-
ther the House was justified in adopting the proposition
of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? The exchanges were
sow, and had Leen for some time past, against this coun-
try, and the result had been that the 9,500,000/. which
had formerly been in the coffers of the Bank, was re-
duced, he would venture to say, to less than 3,000,000.
The greatest mystery was observed with respect to every
thing in ths Bank of England, but no such system was
ad*ted in the Bank of Vrauce. He protested against