The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-19 00:00:00

LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 19, 1839.

Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the present was a f time.: - Injustice had ben done throughout—(Hear)--1
very different ease altogether to the question that was dis. but he hoped the 11 use would do justice now. In sup- I
cussed last year ehe could not agree with the Right portieg tleis mot. . i,e did not consi;ler that he pledged 1
Hon. Gentleman in that statement; the matter i,'-.5 then hims if to a money vote, but he considered himself bound
very fully discussed, the money was voted, and then a ' to assist in ascertaining what the claims of the parties
Minister of the Crown had taken the judgment of the were, and if 501. or 500,0001. was fairly due to them it
House, and that judgment was against him, he thought it would not become the Government of a great country like
was uncalled for that he should persevere against the this to withhold payment of that which was justly due._
sense of the House. If the present trap ion was ( Much cheering.) The address was a proper address to
granted then the means would be bad of knowing be moved, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not
what the parties were entitled to, and then they to oppose it.—(Criesof " Divide.")
would be enabled to- see whether the Chancellor Lord JOHN RUSSELL was rather alarmed at the
of the Exchequer would say, after two votes doctrine propounded by the Hon. Member who had just
against him, that he would not consent to the present vote sat down. He stated that it was an extraordinary war,
The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by moving— and that it had been commenced in a most unusual
" That an humble Address be presented to her Majesty, manner, and especially as thirty-two years had
praying that she will be graciously pleased to direct the elapsed, the claims of the parties more particularly
Commissioners to whom it was referred to examine the merited the 'attention of the House. He (the Noble
claims of certain British subjects, in respect of losses sus- Lord) was afraid that if the House laid down the principle
twined by the seizure of- ships and cargoes by the Danish that they were consider all claims that might be presented
Government in 1807, to proceed to adjudicate upon the to them, and that lapse of time was to be considered an
claims which they have received, and upon which they additional recommendation of the claims to the attention
hayi‘eir.mtaidue
BUTT
Rseeepoonrdtetiodtonstubbt:_vheieecmint:Ltoiornd.s of her Majesty's of the House—if the Hon. Member was to send that forth
Treasury." as an advertisement, the House would very soon be inun-
dated by claims; and if they were to entertain the present
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERcouId claims, he did not know why claims in the time of the war
hhvaitn-egianigsbnend
ththeatptrheseeni in 1797 should not be sent in—nor, indeed why claimants
be:hheandittawkennulad nhiagvhet
ifno_r
should not be found to go back to the time of Charles the
The Hon,
that and
he
(thenot having
Chan
terfercd less with other business, and when it might have Second. The House of Commons might depend upon it
been discussed more calmly than it possibly could on that that if it entertained these claims for losses in times long
fitthe to pursue
Exchequer) knew the difficulty there would gone by, the House would very soon have scarcely any-
thoughtthing else to do than to hear the merits of claims argued.
ee evieineievening.
'of
f.
He hoped the House would not continue the discussion of
be to obtain the attention of the House to the subject, the subject unless it was prepared to pay millions in the
when one of great public interest was about to be brought satisfaction of claims of one description or another that -
forward, yet he felt bound, in discharge of his duty, might be brought forward,
to call the attention of the House to the principles in.
• Lord SANDON would put the question at present on
volved in the claim of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had acted in
He would not go into details on this question, but he would accordance with the assurance which he gave to the House
shortly state to the House the. ground upon which he felt on a former occasion, or whether he was not now going in
it to be his duty to resist the present motion. In the year direct variance with that assurance. The address now
1835 he had proposed a vote of 130,000/. for the relief of proposed was upon the [sane footing as the address that
the sufferers in the Danish squadron. In 1836 he had. had been agreed to before, and he thought it ought not to
proposed a further vote of 78,0001. for the same purpose ; be opposed.
and in the estimates of the present year he had proposed The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
87,4811. for the same purpose, making a total of 295,481/. assure the House that he believed he now took the same
which had already been voted for this purpose. He ad. course that he had always taken when this question bad
verted to this for the purpose of showing that there come under discussion. He was not now prepared to pro.
was no desire on the part of the Government not pose
an estimate, and therefore he could not take a dit-
to give relief in cases that had been made out. ferent step at present to what he bad before taker,.
The ground of distinction between the cases that Sir STRATFORD CANNING was ready to
had already been relieved, and those brought forward admit the principle on which the Right Honourable
by the Hon. and Learned Vernber was, that in the case of Gentleman had placed his opposition on this oc-
the former class of claimants the wrong sustained was easier], but still it was to be recoll,cted that a war
contrary to the usages of civilized warfare, while in the expedition had been sent out to Denmark, when almost all
present instance the claimants had not sustained any such mankind thought this country was in a state of profound
wrong, the wrong having been sustained in the customary peace with Denmark, and that that war was undertaken
course of ordinary hostility. The question for the con- with the utmost secresy of intention, so that the shipping
sideration of the House was, whether it would now for the trade was exposed to unusual danger.—(Hear, hear. )
first time sanction the principle that subjects of the Crown •Certainly it was but fair, with a view to satisfy the spirit
having sustained an injury under circumstances that were of justice of the country, that inquiries should be entered
recognised by the law of nations, might come to that House upon as to these claims.
arid ask for compensation. If such a principle was to Mr. GOULBURN could not but adhere to the opinions
be recognised, he would ask where was the war lie had always expressed on this subject. He objected to
in which the subjects of the Crown did Oct sustain damage ? setting the example of listening to these claims. If this
and if they were to be allowed to come to that House for precedent was laid down, applications would be Con..
the purpose of obtaining an indemnity, no gentleman tinually made, from time to time, of a similar sort, and
living could contemplate the extent to which those de- every night would be occupied with the discussion of them.
mends might be made? Such was the distinction between The lion. Member for Kilkenny had put it upon this, that
the two cases, and such were his reasons in not calling the Foreign-office would not tell the merchants whether
upon the House to take any steps to affirm the liability of this country was going to war or not with Denmark. He
the country to make good losses sustained in ordinary war- would put it to the House to say whether the Foreign-
fare. It was true that a great public principle was in• office was bound to state such a thing to merchants gene-
volved in this subject, but if he had entertained any doubt rally ? This proceeding meant nothing, unless it meant
before upon it, that doubt had been removed and turned into a money vote, and he for one must oppose it.
certainty by the statements of the Hon. and Learned Colonel SIBTHORP wished to ask the Right Hon.
Member—for what had he said ? Why, that because the Gentleman opposite, whether the Foreign-office did .not
House had affirmed the address, to which the assent of the tell the merchants that they were in a perfect state of
Crown was not required, that therefore it must be taken safety as far as a war was in question ?
to have effirnied the proposition for a money vote. He has The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
put it fairly enough on that ground now, and he calls upon if the Gallant Colonel wished to have an answer to that
tile House to say, that because they have previously voted question, he must put it to one who was responsible for
an address, that therefore they were bound to vote the what passed at. the Foreign Office at that time.
money. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman seemed to Mr. WARBURTON said. the question before the
think that because he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) House was not whether it was fitting or not that money
had not acted with respect to this subject as he had should be granted to those claimants. The only question
with respect to the others, that therefore there was a was, whether reasonable expectation was not held out to
necessity for the address he had moved for. Now he must them that the Commissioners should proceed to inquire
say that in his opinion the cases were not at alhanalogous, if there were not a certain class of these petitioners whose
for with respect to the other vote, there was no contest in claims were valid. He thought the reasonable interpreta-
respect of the principle, that the injury bad been received tion to be put upon the carrying of the motion of last year
in consequence of the violation of the law of nations. He was, that the Commissioners should report which of
had already stated he was determined to oppose this too- these claims were to be considered valid. The
ewhelendg Hon,
ofn the facts,
tion, and should he have a majority against him, he should Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
resist it in its future stages and progress, whatever might had opposed the vote to the utmost of his power, had '
be the result of this address. As long as he bad a seat in that stated that he did not consider that to he the object and into-
House he would take care that the subject, if it came to be rest of the vote, or that they should tie included in the esti-
discussed, should be discussed ha a full House, wmitehmahefurall mates. It would, however, be a second question, whether
,
these clauses should be included in the estimates. When
w
that came before the House for discussion they could go
knowledge
wdow‘l were
gle e
few in
they
ai
al
had
aidt s
been
eeet a,
i number,il s, a
bad n n
canvassed d
on ok
to come down for the into the general merits of the question.
purpose, n w
purpose, in effect, of supporting a money vote. He thought Mr. CRE SSWE LL replied be could not pass by the
if the House did not at once set its face against the atop observation of his Right Hon. Friend below him, who
lion of such a course it would stand in a most awkward said that if the present motion was agreed to the claimants
would plunder the country. fie could not understand upon
iConsideringtuatin
s that might what ground it was stated that those persons whose pl.:Tarty
respect
serious
ensettihenenee public.—( Hear.)
result from such a vote, he would undertake no was taken from them in consequence of the proceedings
responsibility with respect to the present question of pre- of Government, would plunder the country because, they
situation
with
hhe
paring any estimate, or of obtaining her Majesty's assent sought compensation for the losses they had sustained. it
to it. The Hon. Gentleman hail stated fairly enough, by might be said that the Danes, who had taken 1,200,000/
way of supporting his case, that be (the Chancellor of the of the property of the people of England, had plundered
Exchequer) had not directed this claim to be adjudicated the country, but it was too much to say that the parties
upon, to order not to terrify the House by the extent of who had suffered losses to that extent could be charged
the demand. He could assure bins that he had proceeded with plundering the country when they claimed compen-
upon no such ground ;in the other cases it was true that sation for these losses.—( Hear, hear.) The ground
he had directed the Commissioners to adjudicate, but in the taken by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite on
present instance he was prepared to resist it to the utmost the present occasion was precisely the same as
of his power, indeed he would at once say, that be was not that which be had taken last year.—(" Hear,
disposed to submit provision to be made for these claims, hear, hear," from the Chancellor of time Exchequer.)
unless there was somatkiag.ilana. to...a...guise .itas a num°, ,_The Right Hon., Gentleman said that subjects were bound
vote. If the Hou. and Learned Member would meet to take their chance during the time of war, and he stated
this-question fairly, he should be ready at any time to that the captures were made flagrante belle. Ile (Mr.
grapple with him, let bins only bring forward' a motion Cresswell) denied that.—(Cheers.) The Erglish nation,
that would raise the question of a money vote, and then if for great and important purposes, had committed an irre.
the House affirmed that they were ready to pay that gular act, by seizing the property of a nation in time of
amount he would direct the Commissioner to adjudicate, peace. Lord Cathcart had stated that he came there as a
but •he would not, until then, pursue a course friend, and he seized the property of the, Danes, as he
directly 'at ' vatiance with his sense of public duty. alleged, to prevent its falling into the hands of their
The House would have the goodness to recollect, that enentie3.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Danes made re•
endeavouring to defeat the claim, he could not have prisals, and, according to the law of nations, the country was
any interested motives with respect to the Govern. bound to make compensation for property lost by its sub.
ment, he did it solely because he considered that it jects in such cases. Any lion. Member of that House who
behoved those who were placed in situations of trust knew anything of the law of nations would at once admit
to adhere to principles, and as far as possible to prevent that principle.—( Hear. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman
the House running the danger of acting upon er parte (the Attorney-General) had on a former occasion admit-
statements. If the proposition of the Hon. Member was ted that very principle, but his argument was that the pro..
carried, then the parties making the claim would consider perty had been lost flagranle &Po, therefore no title to
themselves strengthened, and they would come to the compensation bad been made out. Another argument
House stating that although they had failed in making urged by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
House meant was that the question should be discussed in a full House.
by claim, they wanted to know what the
Member
Whatcould he MI Creswell) do more? He
by granting the second address to the Hon. for
~ ( :._ . had
Liverpool, and they would tell the House to its face that watched his o"pportunity, and bad fixed his motion for au
it. Nos he early hour, when there was some probability of a full at-
wouldt meant a money vote, and nothing else by
let the House so understand it, let it he sup- tendanee—(Cassers)—he had selected the very night fixed
say, by the Hon. Member for London to bring forward the
that the vote of that year committed the House to a
posed
tion of money, and upon that he wou.d
lappeal to the question of the Ballot—( Renewed cheers) —and if the
Houseues as a body, whether they would, by a side wind, allow subject had been considered of importance by time Govern-
the whole question of money to be opened except under moot, why had they not brought down a full House
the authority of the Crown. He had to apologise to the to discuss these claims in ?—( Loud cheers.) He had
Hon. Member for the City of London for preventing him brought the question forwsrd as an independent
for sometime from bringing on his motion, of which he Member.—( Hear, hear.) He bad done so, not because
had given notice that night, he had not the fortuLe to his constituents were interested in it, because, unless he was
agree with the Hon. Member on that subject, but he satisfied that the claim was a just one, he would not bring
thought it was due to him to say that his duty alone had it forward its that liouse.—(lleam hear.) The captures
caused him to address the House at the length he bad which had been made of the property of British subjects.
idone. If it was neccesary, whenever questions which might was now matter of history, and he hoped the Government
nvolve the country in large pecunary responsibility were would allow its own Commissioners to investigate what the
brought forward upon principles hitherto unrecognised, amount of these losses was. The Right Hon. Gentleman
if the House recognised such a principle, he would move stated that he would oppose the wish of the House so far as
a call of the House, in order that the House might under- he could, and he had given fair notice, that he would
stand what it was about; and until the deliberate opinion of resist the motion so far as he could. That intimation cer-
the House was pronounced on every stage of the proceed- tainly could not hurt him (Mr. Crcsswell) in the least.
ing, the Hon. Member for Liverpool would find him a It was an intimation to the House, and if the Right
Hon. Gentleman had declared that he would resist the
most inflexible opponent. Considering the course pro-
wish of the House—that was its affair not his.—( Hear,
posed by the Hon. and Learned Member to be one that
would pledge the House to grant the money required to and cheers.) I t was said that the Commissioners ought
not to adjudicate lest the parties might be put to expense,
satisfy these claims, he must give it his most decided op.
and in the same breath the Commissioners are told to re-
position.
ceive evidence, but not to pronounce any opinion lest it
Mr. HUME had only a few words to say. Time had
• ill •te false hopes in the '
the claims of the individuals. !nig texei
_parties claiming. Now, he
only added, in his opinion, to
preceding Government had ected most contended, thatthe Right Hon. Gentleman, having put
He thought the
hands 1 200 000/ it had these parties to the expense of bringingforward
dtheir evi-
unjustly, when, having had in
.its
' ' • " The donee was the person whohadfr • aise false hopes.—( Hear,
British subject any compensation..
refused to give the
hear.)' It could b ' d
recognised the point to this extent, that not :... suppose that it was mere idle
Government had
t that they had claims, those claims were curiosity, or an anxiety to learn precisely the amount
if parties made out
entitled to consideration. The
sideration. Ile Chancellor of the Excise- of the losses sustained, that induced the Commis-
quer was of opinion that the vote of the previous Session sioners to require evidence on these points. He trusted
did not imply a vote of money. He agreed with the that the hopes which •had been excited iu the minds of the
Right Hon. Gentleman in that, but then it implied that parties, who had lost their property some thirty-two years
inquiry should be made by competent persons to ascertain ago, by the vote of last year, would now be realised,
who were the claimants, and what was time amount of the The House divided when there appeared—
claims. After that vote he should have considered himself Ayes,
bound not only to receive the claims, but to direct the Noes,

Commissioners to ascertain the nature and the amount
of the claims; nor could he think that justice
war, he Was prepared
could be satisfied until that was done. If the Hon. and
ythe claimants had no
Learned Gentleman opposite did not know what the
claims were, he did perfectly right to try this address, fot
the address, as be understood it, simply prayed in effect
that her Majesty would be pleased to direct an inquiry to
be made into the nature of the claims, in order that the
House might afterwards take the question into its consi-
deration whether those claims should be paid ( Hear,
hfaeiarlry.)to
righ,. to come to that House, but if ever there was an ex •
traordinary case in the annals of British history the con-
duct staletlri s
thathad he
e beenshoaunl
do rtdhi ni
think
duct of the British Government with respect to Demark,
on the occasion referred to, presented that extraordinary
case. From the correspondence that had taken place
it appeared that the merchants having heard ru-
mours of war between England and Denmark, they
went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day
to, inquire if England was going to war with
Denmark,
and the answer they received was, that there was not the ,
least chance of it. And if he (Mr. Home understood the
claimants, their case was that, by that statement from
Government they were misled. If it had been an ordinary
case of warfare, every merchant was considered bound to
insure his ships against the ordinary chances of war,
and in that ease if a war had taken place, there
would have boen no hardship to complain of ' • but .here
there was a certainty of war, and whic
h from
the statement made by the Government no ingenuity or
attention on the part of the merchants could possibly have
enabled them to foresee or to provide against. That cir-
cumstance made the present an extraordinary case. He
had no hesitition, therefore, in thinking that whatever
might be the • 3 s oft of the House as to paying
monev, it
was due to our countrymen who had been thirty-two ;ears
kept out of their cialn.E,at least to ascertain if anything
was due to them; an c'. now that they had done all they
could towards satisfying o .1 i 1 claimants, it would be but
barely just that thetsauld give their attention to this last
class of claimants. It was but right that the Right Hon.
Gentleman should not allow a shilling to be paid axay till
a clear case was made out, but he ought not to oppose a
proper inquiry. He (Mr. Hume) had fifteen or twenty
years ago advocated this case, when it was but ill received
by the House, and almost scouted by the Government of
the day. The Right Honourable Gentleman then acted
wrongly, as be (Mr. Hume) bad told him at that

Majority for the Address, —63
The announcement was received with loud cheering.
Oa our re-admission we found
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER on his
legs answering a question put to him by Mr. Hutt.—ln
consequence of the adverse vote which has just taken place
I will take care that there shall he placed on the table of
the House a full and entire account of these claims to the
fullest extent they can be carried out. Sir, I enter my
caveat against any complaints being again made
against me upon the subject. Having done so, I will tell
the lion. Gentleman that I will still think it my duty to
oppose the next step he takes, which must be the proposal
of a money vote. I will resist that vote, and tell' the
House that if it votes away the money it is the public
money that it is dealing with. Although the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman has carried the address against me,
still I must protest against it, and until the Housn
carries a money vote to pay these claims I
will be no party to the cause in any way.__( Hear,
hear.) I feel quite persuaded that there is no
Gentleman in this House who imputes to me any motives,
or thinks that I am or have been actuated by any other
motives, in this case than a deep sense of public duty.—
( Hear, hear.) The day will come when resistance in
matters of this kind will be looked upon in another light,
and it will be then found that the House has set a bad
example upon this occasion, and that it has too much re-
laxed the rule. The question can be, carried no farther
now than the money vote, and that remains still an open
question.
Mr. CRESSWELL—The Right Hon. Gentleman, in
his speech. mentioned something es to the manner of
bringing on a money vote. Perhaps if he will not move
it himself he will initiate me into the secret.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No;
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has carried his address
against me. lam not at all desirous of giving him the
slightest assistance, and I will not be so presumptuous as
to afford him any insight into the matter at all.
Colonel SIBTHORP said he did not object to such
Commissions as this one, it was with those who did
nothing that he found faule—(Lauehter.)
PUBLIC WALKS.
Mr. SLANEY rose to move " That it is the duty of
the commons' House of Parliament to take measures to
pro
vide Public Walks in the immediate vicinity of large
and populous towns, calculated to promote the health and
com'ort of the middle and humbler classes."—(The Hon.