The Sun.
London, England, 1837-06-17 00:00:00

POOR LAW COMMITTEE.

Mr. WALTER then rose to propose a resolution respect-
ing the Poor Law Committee. We understood_ him to com-
plain that the Committee was principally composed of persons
favourable to the new Act, some of whom were themselves
Chairmen of Unions ; and, under all the circumstances of the
case, he wished to have his name withdrawn from the Com-
mittee. The Hon. Nlember then read documents, to show the
e‘ it working of the present Act, and added that as mattersstood,
he could not hope to effect any thing for those from whom he
had received numerous applications on the subject. He
complained also of the dilatory manner in which the pro-
ceedings before the Committee had been conducted, and the
the troops of witnesses who had been called in to rebut the
evidence adduced, though he had brought but two cases for hives-
tigation before the Committee. The Hon. Gentleman also
complained of the selection of places made for the inquiry,
and alluded to the difficulty he had in inducing the Committee
to consent to a daily publication of their reports. Even these
reports (as we understood the Hon. Gentleman) were given
full or otherwise, at the pleasure of the Committee. The
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that a copy of the
ninth day's proceedings before the Cotnmittte on the New
Poor Law Act be submitted to the House, and that the Com-
mittee should be required to report their opinion on the evi-
dence already given, including the testimony given on the
Westhampeatt Union.
Mr. FA ZAK ERLEY,4ts chairman of the Committee, did
not think himself bound to follow the Hon. Member through
all the statements contained in private letters, now for the first
time produced. He, however, felt convinced that if the facts
stated in them were fully inquired into they would be found-
as much exaggerated, or as entirely destitute of truth, as other
snd similar assertions which had been made on the subject. When
the Committee was appointed there were some doubts as to the
nest mode of pmeeding. Some were for a general inquiry,
others were for going into the cases of alleged abuse, and en-
deavouring to ascertain how far they went. At the sug-
gestion, and according to the wish, of the Hon. Member
tor Berkshire Vie Committee agreed to go into the state-
ment of particular grievances, and he himself was per-
mitted to select the abuses complained of. The Hon.
Gentleman first named a union in Sussex. The Hon.
Gentleman complained of the dilatory manner in which the
Committee proceeded, and of his having been overwhelmed
by witnesses. Now, the dilatoriness was in some measure at-
tributable to the Hon. Gentleman himself, and any Member of
the Committee would bear witness that a great deal of its
time had been wasted by inquiries into paltry details which
could have no effect one way or the ether on the general
operation of the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) As to what was stated
of overwhelming witnesses, the feets would best tell. There
were 61 witnesses examined, and of these 38 were called by
the Hon. Member.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) There
were 17,187 questions put, and of these 3,370 were asked by
the lion. Member for Berkshire.
Mr. WALTER explained.

After a few words from Mr. FITZROY and Mr. C. PELIIANI,
which were not audible in our part of the gallery, there were
cries of " Divide," and " Gone," the latter phrase alluding
to the Hon. Member for Berkshire, who was for the moment
absent from the House, but who returned immediately, when
the gallery was cleared for a division.
Strangers were excluded, but, no division taking place, on
our return to the gallery we found
Mr. WA KLE Y speaking. He thought that the poor cot-
tagers (contrary to the Tory doctrine) should be considered as
much as the highest nobleman of the land, and although he
did not agree with all the provisions of the Bill he considered
it his duty, in which he considered himself backed by the
common sense of the country, to vote against the motion of the
lion. Member for Berkshire.
Sir ANDREW AGNEW made some remark which we did
net hear.

Mr. ARTHUR TREVOR begged to assure the Hon.
Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley) that it was quite con-
sistent with old Tory feeling to consider the poor cottager as
much as the nobleman.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") On these
grounds l►e should support the motion. In the union with
which he (Mr. A. Trevor) was connected a perfect system of
tyranny was carried on towards the poor, which the law never
contemplated, and which he anal his brother magistrates were
completely powerless to resist.
Lord J. RUSSELL would say a few words, not on the
principle of the Bill or on its operation—for those were not
the questions before the !louse—but on the specific motion of
the Hon. Member for Berkshire. The Ilon. Member had
made it motion for inquiry, which contained two heads ; the
first, that the proceedings of the Committee on certain days
should be returned to the /louse; and, secondly, that the
Committee should pronounce an opinion when certain cases,
already gone into, should be conchaded. With respect to the
first proposition, he (Lord J. Russell) was bound to state that
there were no grounds whatever for entertaining it ; and,
with respect to the second, lie thought it would be, in the
language of the Hun. Member for Finsbury, an improper and
immature interference with the inquiry as it affected the law.
He (Lord J: Russell) was surprised that the Hon. Member
should make such a motion. With respect to the course pur-
sued by the Committee, he (Lord J. Russell) should not offer
an observation on it after the statements made by his Hon.
Friend behind him in its defence. Though only confined
to a few unions these proceedings, however, had sufficiently

shown what was the operation of the law in the agricultural
districts. It was now proposed by the Committee that they
should enter on the inquiry of its operation in the manufac-
turing districts and the large towns of the country, a subject
on which he (Lord J. Russell) should be very glad to have
some conclusive evidence, for there might Ire views in connec-
tion with it for which none of the Committee were as yet pre-
pared. lie (Lord J. Russell) thought the course of the
Committee was wise and advisable ; and he, therefore, saw no
reasonable grounds for interfering with it.
Mr. D. W. H ARV h: 'l7, though very much disinclined on
all occasions to suggest the appointment of additional officers
for the House, could scarcely refrain from proposing one in
reference to the appointment of Committees, more especially
as the Noble Lord (J. Russell) had a very important Com-
mittee to appoint on Monday night. The duties of that officer
he should propose to be phrenological—that is, he should have
to inve•Aigatt‘ the heed of every Hon. Mem-
ber named to a Committee, and report on his fitness for it
before the I louse confirmed the appointment.—( Laughter.)
Ile (Mr. Ilarvey) had heard with eikonplary patience the lec-
ture of the Hon. Member for Finsbury on heads, and he
subscribed with great cheerfulness to what had been 5441 by
him in regard to the head of the Hon. Chairman of the Cony'
mittec ; but he (Mr. Harvey) wished the Hon. Member had
also pronounced judgment on the bead of the,Hon. Member
for ile;(tshire.___( Laughter.) He would then perhaps, by the
"-"overt' of cuution or secretiveness, be able to account for
tibia to i4vine the meaning of the lion. Mem-
' ""ghtaf,) ;jO-1 (Mr. Harvey) the mo-
was in Cw'a 1 is !---,The first of
the'Corfilll44ePt 40 Ole
-I thew prop44l-
-

his nut ot

her's motiun.-o,_

tion was clear enough.
which called for certain returns t

second fur a report up to the present periou
ings. But, to understand time Hon. Member's mu.._
would be necessary to refer to what occurred in an early stage
of the sittings of the Committee. If the House viewed the
question in connection with these occurrences, it would at
once perceive that the motion and the proceedings of the
Conimittee at that stage were in perfect harmony with each
other. When the Committee first comreenced its labours it
was resolved that after an examination into the operations of
the law in four agricultural counties bad taken place they would
next proceed to the manufacturing districts, and ultimately to
to the metropolitan cities and boroughs. That resolution
had, however, been gradually relaxed until they bad at last
now come to a decision not to proceed further with the agri-
cultural districts, notwithstanding all the petitions that had
been presented for inquiry, but go at once to Bradford, in
the heart of the manufacturing districts. Now one question
naturally arose on this decision ; were the Committee satisfied
with the inquiry as far as it had gone, or were they not? If
they were, what obstacle was there in the way of a report? If
not, why abandon the inquiry into the agricultural unions,
and go into that of the manufacturing ? The palpable effect
of all this was to give an interminable character to the investi-
gation, and it would seem to be as impossible to come to a
satisfactory conclusion on it as it would be to convince the
poor that the measure itself was framed in their favour—to
raise them in the sale of beings by encouraging and sup-
porting their spirit of independence.—( Hear, hear.) That
it had at least the appearance of being interminable he
( Mr. Harvey) needed only state one fact to convince the
House. The Committee was employed for three months on
four unions only. In that time they put 17,000 questions.
Now, if such was the result of four unions, what woulai it
be with 400—the number in the country ; or where would
it end ?—( Hear, hear.) It was useless to expect anything
like a satisfactory result from an inquiry of such a na-
ture ; and it was his conviction to that effect which in-
duced him to withdraw from the Committee. The Hon.
Member then went on to complain that, while the advo-
cates of the Poor-law had every facility which power, and
influence, and a host of officials could give, the party opposed
to it, the poor, had no means of procuring a single witness
in support of their case, and not one to step forward to
uphold their interests. The Hon. Member for Berkshire
should, however, be excepted ; for lie (Mr. Harvey) was sa-
tisfied that he bad already spent more than one thousand pounds
in his efforts to obtain justice for the poor. On the one side
there was machinery of the most perfect description—on the
other there was the most wretched helplessness. It was stated
that the Bill was working' well; but was that statement borne
out by the fact ? He believed not. What was the result it
produced ? The deduction of 25 per cent. from the poor man's
weekly wages. Before he voted on the question he wished
to know whether the Committee had terminated the labours
in the agricultural districts, and whether they intended to re-
port upon them ?
Mr. FAZ AKE RLEY explained.
Mr. Sergeant G OULBURN said, as the motion of the
Hon. Member for Berkshire would have the effect of putting
a stop to all further inquiry, and shut the doors on the manu-
facturing districts altogether, he (Mr. Sergeant Goulburn)
felt it to be his duty to his constituents to oppose it.
Mr. WALTER said that, after what he had heard, he
should, with the permission of the House, withdraw the first
proposition in his resolution. The second ho should press.
Mr. PRYME opposed the motion.
Mr. HODGES said that all the favourable anticipations
which he had entertained of this Bill had been disappointed ;
but he still hoped that something might be done to make the
measure beneficial.
Sir L. PAUR Y said that the present Poor-law Bill was
very much disapproved of in Wales.
Mr. VILLIERS said that the only object of the present
motion was to cast imputations on the Committee ; but if the
Members for Berkshire or Finsbury had any charges against
the Committee why did they not bring them forward manfully,
and not deal in insinuations?—(Cheers.) If there was any
fault the fault must he with the House, who had appointed the
Committee, and he bogged to ask if either of those Members
were prepared to make any proposition for a new change in
the House of Commons ? This was rather a singular time for
the Hon. Member for Berkshire to withdraw from the Com-
mittee. He supposed it was hems° the Hon. Member was
about to offer himself again to an agricultural county, where
perhaps lie had found that the course he bail taken on this
subject was not very palatable.
Mr. WAKLEY denied that it was his habit to deal in in-
sinuations, and the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr.
Villiers) in saying so said that which was not true.—( Cries of
" Order.")
After a few observations from the SPEAKER, pointing
out the unparliametary nature of the words used by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury,
Mr. WAKLEY withdrew the offensive expression lie had
used.
The House was cleared for a division, when the numbers
were—

For the original motion ll9
For the amendment
Majority 59
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
On our re-admission to the gallery, we found the House in
a Committee of Supply.
Sir L. HAY said that he would shortly state to the. Com-
mittee the nature of the Ordnance supply, for which he was
about to move. There was an increase in the expense for
barracks at Australia, New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land,
and Corfu, of 8,300/. ; for the survey in Ireland, 5,000/. ; for
the geological survey of Great Britain, 11,0001. ; and other
minor charges, making in the whole an increase over the vote
of last year cf 100,456/. From this there was to be deducted
40,935/., which had been produced by sales of old stores and
other things, making in the whole a surplus over the vote of
last year of 61,9611 , and for this sum he now moved that a
resolution be voted by tie Committee.
Mr. HUME objected to the increased charge in this year's
account, and especially to the two thousand pounds to which
the Hon. Gentleman had alluded. There were many minor
details into which he did not consider it worth while to
enter at the present moment, as he should have an op-
portunity for referring to them according to their connec-
non with the votes, to be consecutively put in the course
of the evening; but he would take that opportunity of ob-
jecting, as he had done for several years past; to the whole
system by which the Ordnance Department was managed.
Nothing could be worse than that system, and he was con-
vinced that a saving of at least half a million of money might
have been effected by the adoption of a better one. The mi-
litary department of the Ordnance ought, he considered, to be
placed under the management of the Commander-in• Chief.
That had been done to a certain extent with regard to the
corps of Sippers and Miners ; but why a principle which had
been so strongly recommended in the Report of the Duke of
Richmond himself had not been still further acted upon, he
was at a loss to imagine. He could not conceive why the
clothing of the Artillery and Engineers should be managed in
a different way from the rest of the Army, and why they could
not have one general supply with respect to all military
clothing.—( Hear.) The Report of the Commission recom-
mended the separation of the civil and military duties of the
Ordnance department, and that the Secretary of War should
take the management of the civil, and the Master- General
that of the military business. The Hon. Gentleman, after
some few discursive observations, on different parts of the
report he held in his hand, concluded by expressing his opi-
nion that the system on which the Ordnance was conducted
was most unnecessarily expensive, and wished to know why
the various reforms which had been recommended had not
been adopted ?
Sir A. L. HAY said he could not attempt to follow the
Hon. Member through his discursive speech, and it was cer-
tainly somewhat unreasonable to expect that because the Re-
port of a Commission had been laid upon the table of the
House, that Report containing, as it did, such a variety of re-
commendations, must of necessity be definitively acted upon.
__( Hear.) He could not say that it was the desire of the
Government to diminish the expense and accumulation of the
stores as far as it was possible to do co. As to the separation
of the civil and military duties of the department, he was not
prepared to offer any observations, as he only stood there to
move the different votes of the Estimates, and to give any ex-
planations immediately connected with them.
Dr. 130 W RING, in allusion to the credit side of the
year's account, objected to the system of any department re-
ceiving public money for objects not necessarily connected
with it.
Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON had the greatest pos-
sible respect for the military officers connected with the admi-
nistration of the affairs of the Board of Ordnance, but he
thought them, as far as the naval department of the Ordnance
was concerned, by no means likely to be so competent as naval
officers would be.—(Hear.) Owing to the present system
the muskets supplied to the navy were of the worst possible
description, and many of them absolutely dangerous.—( Hear.)
Over that particular department a naval man ought certainly
to preside.
Sir H. HARDINCE said that such was the case under
the Administration of the Duke of Wellington.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was not his intention
at present to enter into the question of the consideration of the
offices. It was a question on which considerable difference of
opinion existed.

THE SUN, LO

all
mmencement, without v" .cs it would be hater to
make a co ev,e,irch nothing would he done.
Mr. HUME thought at
After a short conversation resolution was agreed to.
The next vote of 84,1v)51, for salaries at Woolwich,&c.,
ge., was, after a converiation. agreed to.
Oa the next vote of 74,2L9/.„ for the corps of Royal En-
gineers, Sappers, and Miners„ &c.
In answer to a question from Mr. NI•LE AN,
Colonel LErrn HAY slid that :he employment of the
Sappers and Miners in Spair. did not on the face of this esti-
mate appear to cvuse 2ny additional expense to the country.
He was not prepared to say that the expense had not been in-
curred, but it certainly :aid not appear on the face of this
estimate.

After a short conversation the vote was agreed to.
The next vote of 10,1291., for the medical and military de-
was also agreed to ; as was the
partment of the Ordnance,
following, of 165,3311., for the expense of superintending
o..dnanee works and r'epairs of barracks.
On the motion that 65,000/, should be ranted to defray the
expense of Ordnance stores,
uoAufrse.
thatCslt,aEr
()As Nt o
s the i s
at
mountipred
)eaof,
5f r 37 n 0
oolit.l beforeecu ftuhe
had r_
nished to the Queen of Spain. 113 x was this to be paid ?
Sir A, L. HAY said that only 30,000/. were on the pre-
sent estimates.
Sir G. CLERK complained of this addition to the large
amount already due by Spain.
Mr. MACLEAN remarked that the return of receipts for
advances to the Spanish Government was nil. If, as was not
improbable, that Government should become bankrupt in s;x
month; what would become of the claim?
Lor4 114 Efi.STON objected to pressing Spain for this
sum, witch the eon. Member himself stated that country was
nit titu verge of bankruptcy. The sending the muskets to
- to reality, an advantageous disposal of the stores,
- to those persons who took care of them
' gear, hear, and laughter.) Un-
on a large scale by this coun-
aws• Spaina
sth saved viea4irt salaries
sthe i give,.
--I,ets could not be of
try,les
wawayich
wwasas to
notbe v e
rvery
l engagesikey:::
entlemen
regrets, s
s,
ptahreerde foontriete,haioesfuhletlade. Hon.
oppositeservice mightle bree
ffa3iirrs. wAhl iAc hCILi aEd At
aNk esna id
eevery d discussionalway
always tried
eodn
tSnis
a
opast:ttlei
thenot
hciansge
offairly,
D on wciathrlooust
receiving atsos
setiatnhne
or
fproamrtyt.his
the Queen, and that even at the prevent moment attempts
but he believed that loans had been raised in this colluciturnly'tnrelowr;
were made to obtain supplies for her party. These questions,
however, though they bore strongly on the discussion, could
not affect his opposing the vote, when be thought it mireason-

able or improper.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that he had not the pleasure of
knowing Don Carlos; but he was quite certain that if that
personage was on the Treasury bench opposite, the affairs of
this country would be better conducted than they were at pre-
sent.—(Laughter.) He thought it unfair in the Noble Lord
to screen himself for his present conduct by referring to the
votes of former Governments. Each Administration ought to

stand or fall by its own acts.
Mr. BROTHERTON here moved that the House should
adjourn.
Mr. BORTHWICK said that he had not the slightest ob-
jection to second the motion, if the lion. Member intended to
press it.—(" Go on, go on.") With respect to what had
fallen from the Noble Lord opposite, it certainly was a novel
doctrine to promulgate, that property worth half a rolliiPH
sterling did net merit to have persons paid for taking care of
it.—( Hear.) Such was the doctrine laid down by the Noble
Lord.—(" No, no.") The Noble Lord certainly had said
so. But, leaving that part of the question aside, he would
now ask the Noble Lord if be was prepared to give a distinct
pledge that he would exert himself to have the stores al-
ready sent replaced, and to have no others sent out of this
country ?—( Hear, hear.) He asked him if he was ready to
declare that he would no longer give his sanction to the cruel
and barbarous warfare which was now devastating the fairest
country in Europe.
Mr. FORBE S said that the Government certainly showed
little regard for British money or British blood, when they so
lavishly disposed of the money of the country to promote the
war in Spain.
Lord PALM ERST9N said that he must repeat what he
had already stated, that the vote was for the supplies neces-
sary to the Ordnance Department of the country, and not for
the service of Spain.
Mr. FECTOR called on the Noble Lord to answer the
plain question proposed to him by the Hon. Member for
Evesham.
Viscount PALMERSTON said that that Hon. Member
had asked him to give a pledge that no stores should for the
future be afforded for the service of Spain. Now be was
prepared to give the pledge altogether the other way_( Hear,
hear)—and was determined to fulfil, as faithfully as he could,
the treaties which bad been entered into relative to Spain.
—( Hear.) He must again, however, declare that the present
vote had nothing to do with the Spanish question.
After a few words from Major BEAUCLERK,
The vote was put from the chair.
Mr. A. TREVOR moved as an amendment that the Chair-
man do report progress.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... 2
Against it 57
Majority —ss
On our return to the Gallery, we understood that Mr.
FECTOR had again moved that the Chairman do report
progress.
Colonel SIBTHORP recommended Hon. Gentlemen not
to delay the business of the House after the division which
had just taken place.
Mr. A. TREVOR said, that as the Hon. Member for
Dover had supported his motion, he felt himself bound to
second his. Ile was besides so much opposed to the present
vote that he should vote against it were he to remain until six
in the morning.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, and the num-
bers were— _

_
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The vote was then agreed to.
The sum of 65,0001. was granted for superanuations and
allowances to officers of the Ordnance.
The sum of 203,3171. was, after a few words from Captain
BOLDER O, who bore testimony to the accuracy of the Ord.
nance surveys, granted for commissariat supplies for the Ord-
nance Department in the colonies.
The House having resumed, the Chairman reported pro.
gross, and obtained leave to sit again.
Sir E. WILMOT said that it was not his intention to
press the Summary Convictions WII during the present session.
Mr. A. TREVOR wished to know what business the Noble
Lord intended to proceed with to-morrow (this day).
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the object of their sit-
ting to-n►orrow (this day) was to receive the report of the
votes agreed to at this sitt►ng in Supply, in order to enable his
Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring
on the Sugar Duties in a Committee of Ways and Means on
Monday. He did not intend to proceed with any Bill to
which there was objection on the part of any Hon. Gentleman.
The Dublin Police Bill was read a second time.
The Medical Charities ( Ireland) Bill, and Salaries to Offi-
cers Bi!l, went through a Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER obtained
leave to bring in a Bill for the regulation of the Post-office.
The other Orders of the Day being disposed of, the House
adjourned at Two to Twelve o'clock this day.

TILE KING, THE DUKE, AND THE FRENCII
CAVAI.ItY.—I heard an anecdote the other day of this sove-
reign (George IV.) which shows he can at least bear contra-
diction, and that on a point on which the nation itself is rather
sensitive. The Duke of Wellington made one of his guests
at dinner, and the conversation is said to have turned on the
different armies of Europe. " I think it must be generally
conceded," observed the King, " that the British cavalry is
the best in Europe: is it not Arthur ?" for he is slid to have
the affectation of calling the great man by h:s Christian name,
by way of illustrating himself, it is to be supposed. " The
French is very good, Sir," was the answer of the man who had
sects a service very different from that which figures in his-
tories, novels, and gazettes. " I allow that the French ca-
valry is good, but I say that our own is better."—" The
French cavalry is very good, Sir."—" I do not deny it ; but
is not ours better ?"—" The French is very good.
4, well, I suppose I must knock under, since Arthur will have
it so." You are to remember practical men say that the
French cavalry is the best of modern times. Had this anecdote
come from a laquais de place, I should not have mentioned it.
Couper'.s England; with Sketches of Society in the Metro-
polis.
SUICIDE AND DEATHS PROM DROWNING IN
Urns. PA RK. —On Thursday afternoon and evening no less than
three deaths occurred by drowning in the Serpentine River,
Hyde-park. Between four and five o'clock, a man having the
appearance of being a porter at one of the coach-Ofliees, was
observed ascending the bridge over the Serpentine, dividing
the Park from Kenstegton Gardens, and, before the persons
who witnessed the affair could prevent him, h e threw himself
into the water and instantly sank. Information of the occur.
rence was forwarded to the receiving-house of the Royal Hu-
mane Society, when the boat was immediately manned, but,
notwithstanding that every exertion was made for the recovery
of the body, it had not been found up to a late hour yesterday
evening. Shortly after eight o'clock, while a number of per-
sons were bathing, a man of remarkably stout and athletic ap-
rearance, who had been much noticed by the bystanders for his
excellent swimming, was suddenly observed to struggle in the
water and scream out for assistance, when two of the bathers
instantly swam towards him, and endeavoured to support him
towards the shore, but before the boat could reach the spot to
their assistance, they were, for the safety of their own lives,
.forced to loose their hold, when the unfortunate man imme-
diately sank. The drags were then brought into operation,
and in a few minutes the body was recovered and conveyed to
the receiving-house, where several surgeons were promptly in
attendance, but their united exertions failed in restoring ani-
mation. The deceased has since been ascertained to have
been clerk to eri eminent tailor in Prince's-street, Hanover.
square. About a quartor of an hour afterwards another of the
bathers, a young man of twenty years of age, was suddenly
seized with the cramp, and, before asiistanee could be rendered
him, he sunk and was not got out of the water for three-
quarters of an hour. The bodies were removed to St. George's
workhouao, where they await a Coroner's inquest.
WHIRLWINDS. ...-_,We have had several brisk whirl-
winds this week. They raced tbro4gh tit: town, twisting and
whistling the thatch from the houses, dashing tom, 4Ri,k and
shavings into the air, capsizing pigeons in their airy gyrations,
and making the little 4oye in the streets yell as if thunder-
struck. These eccentric humbugs geneFeliY glebe the our
of the village in a few minutes, and seem to be in too much
hurry to do any great harm.—Sandwich islands Gazette.