The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-23 00:00:00

ships in ordinary used to be taken care of by war-
) rant officers on half pay, who received certain
emoluments. A great portion of these men were so
decrepid that they were scarcely able to take care
of themselves, let alone ships, and it was necessary to hire
men to help them in their duty. Now those deerep:cl
veterans were supplanted by vig(•rous officers, taken from
ships in active service; and an able body of seamen, at all
times available, and amounting to 1,400 men, under them
There were as many men in those ships in commission as
would do to fill up the complement of each of the first-rates
he bad already mentioned. Ile should now state the corn-
r.rative number of seamen voted in several years. From
1818 to 1823 the number was from 15,000 to 23,000.
From 1824 to 1829 the number was from 20,000 to 23,000.
In 1831 it was 21,000. In 1832 and 1333 it wat reduced to
18,000. In 1834 it was further reduced to 17,500, with the ad.
dition of 1,000 bays. In 1835 a further reduction took place of
2,000 men. making an aggegate of 15,000. In 1836 the vote
was for 22,500, exclusive of ships in ordinary put in corn.
mission, which had 2,200 men. Having thus shown by
this retrospective statement that our present comparative
force was of a superior character, he should briefly revert
to the maritime power of foreign States. It had been said
that the French had 30 or 40 ships of the line in contni.-
sion ; the number, however, was only 8 A great deal
had been said shout the Russian fleet. But it should be
remembered that that Power hail always made it a fashion

to make a parade of its Navy, Its crews, however, were
not regular sailors. But he would ask whether it was the
business of England to be expected during the time of
peace to keep a large force on foot, capable of resisting an
invasion that might be apprehended from 27 or 28 sail of
the Russian line, unless there was something in our
relations with Russia to excite alarm on our side? But so
long as we had the strongest assurances in the desire of
that Power to maintain peace. and so long as we could
reflect that a recent delicate affair had been got over with-
out disturbance, he did not see why this country should
come forward with eight or ten sail of the line more, in
addition to the nine sail already out. He begged leave
to assure their Lordships that we had thirteen sail of the
line ready for sea at the shortest notice. H. would now
. .

proceed io state to their Lordships in what the present
system of laying out ships in ordinary was practically much
more economical and satisfactory than the system formerly
pursued. Formerly ships had their masts up and looked in a
forward state, but no' they were without their masts, and he
( Earl Minto) had been recommended to this plan by some

of the most eminent professional men in the country; for

he masts would thenceforward be in a much sounder

condition; and the ship would be equipped within a week
of the time required under the late method. On looking
over the stores for 1835, he found th It only half our line-
of-battle ships were serviceable. He would give their
Lordships the exact state of the stores in the various years
since 1831. They amounted in

1831 ... and ... 1832 .. to ... £572.000
1832 ... ... 1833 ... 523,000
1833 ... ... 1834 ... ... 434,000
1834 ... ... 1833 ... 465,000
1835 ... ... 1836 ... ... 384,000
1836 1837 575,000
1838 ... 1839 ... ... 593,000

thereby showing that now we wes e in a better situation
than in any of the previous years. The Noble
Lord also had complained of the under-manning of the
Navy. Now he could assure their Lordships that the
Navy was now as well manned as it had been for a
lengthened series of years, and during the last year had
been greatly increased. Great improvements had been
made in the armament of the ships, and such improvements
that they would require a considerable increase in the
quantity of men, but most decidedly, he said, it was not
just to say that in the greater proportion of ships in com-
mission .the complements of men were smaller —it was not
just to say they were not larger than in any one year since
1831. It had been made a matter of reproach that there were
no new ships in the service, but he was anxious to state
that it had been the system to avoid as much as pos-
sible the launching of ships, as they could be preserved
much easier and much better in the slips than in the

water. They must, however, be launched soon, in con-
sequence of the ruinous state of many of the slips, and
the necessity for repairs in many of the slips afloat. Ile
should be most anxious at all times to meet the utmost
scrutiny into all the details of his department, and he
begged again to remind their Lordships that after
having been charged for months with having
brought down the fleet to a dangerous state, it would not
be considered that he bad been courting popularity by having
avoided stating the real facts until the present time, acid
he might with some pride say that there never has been
the day that this country had seen the same number of
ships in commission at sea in a state of profound peace,
besides the thirteen station ships which were ready to be
commissioned at a moment's notice. It had been com-
plained most loudly that they had sent out Admirals in
ships unfitted to their command ; now in all those cases

that had been cited, except one, it was at the earnest re-
quest of the Admirals themselves that they had been sent
out in two deckers. Ile had ro possible objection to the
returns asked for, but one he would give with reluctance,
which was the return of the disposition of the force at the
present time ; if the Noble Lord, however, pressed for it,
it would be made, but he trusted that it never would be
drawn into a precedent. He did not at that moment re
collect any other topic which had been alluded to
by the Noble Lord. He trusted the House would
excuse him for detaining them at such length, but
he trusted that he had convinced them that the fears enter-
tained for the safety of the country were groundless.
Lord COLCHESTER only asked for the return of the
distribution of the ships, because the Noble Earl had him-
self laid on the table of the House a return of the distri-
bution of the ships in 1792.
Earl DE GREY said as so much allusion had been
made to the state of the Navy during the short time be sat
at the Admiralty Board he trusted their Lordships would
indulge him for a very few words. At the time he joined the
Administration of the Navy he found that 26 000 men and
boys had been voted for the service of the former year, but
he also .found, that of those actually in service there were
no more than 24,600 teen and boys. As the' Government
of that 'dailiaiited'ilo More than those actual!), in service
they asked only-for a vote of -25,000. He would, how-
eve,, be frank with their Lordships, and state that his
decided opinion was that the number was much too small ;
he felt sincerely that it was so, but the clamour that raged
threughout the country for economy compelled the Go-
vernment to yield their own wishes, as they felt quite cer-
tain that had they proposed a larger number it would not
have
and
conceded
w was
st o still.othem. However, he was of that
opinion
Lord MELVILLE—As their Lordships' as well as the

public mind was much agitated upon this subject, and as
he bad been so long connected with the administration of
the Navy, he felt that he would not be justified in his own
mind if he abstained from addressing a few words to their
Lordship; on that occasion. He begged their Lordships
most distinctly to understand there would not be the
slightest spark of private feeling.—( Hear, hear.) He had
been long enough acquainted with the administration of
naval affairs to know that as regarded the expenses
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the controlling
power over the Lords of the Admiralty. If the Lords
of the Admiralty were allowed to do not only what they
thought proper, but what was absolutely necessary, the
estimates would be much larger than they were in general.
He never held the First Lord of the Admiralty as liable in
any way excep as a Member of the Government. He (Lord
M.) did not charge the Government with any want of ships ;
he believed that was not the charge brought by his Noble
Friend. The charge was that in the distribution of our
ships our own ports and our own shores were left too
wholly unguarded. He:( Lord Melville) fully believed that
the old practice in this respect was much the better ; and
in his opinion in departing from it her Majesty's Govern-
ment had incurred a deep responsibility. Never, he be-
lieved, since the peace, had our Navy been in such a
dilapidated state at home ; and it was no satisfaction to the
people of this country that we had plenty of ships abroad.
The question was as to the distribution of the force. If it
were only for the gratisfaction of the people, we ought
always to have a large naval force to guard our own shores
and ports, for they had always placed much confidence in
the naval force. If he understood the question properly,
there was but one disposable ship in the ports of this
country , for he had not been able to follow his Noble
Friend, nor was be aware of the manner in which
he had made out that there were nine disposable
ships at home. At one period the Admiralty
had been enabled to send out a large force of in-
fantry in ten days in line of battle ships. How long
would it take his Noble Friend? NNhy they could not do
so within a period of some months. If they could not dis-
tribute their means so as to keep up an adequate force at
home and provide abundantly for their force abroad, they
must"go to Parliament fur snore. His Noble Friend behind
him had talked of additional money and men being required.
If they excluded the marines, he ( Lord M.) thought that
probably 2,000 men would be sufficient, and that, as some
additional ships would be required, probably 100,0001.
would be the outside of the expense necessary. At the
same, he had some doubt how far it would be necessary to
augment the force at all. He bad seen, under the autho-
rity of a Gallant Captain, who was a few days ago a Lord of
the Admiralty, a statement in a pamphlet, with which he
entirely concurred. At the same time, he hoped the
practice of Members of Boards, and Secretaries of Boards,
publishing their opinions in such a way, would not
become common, because he thought the promulga-
tion of those opinions had better be confined to
meetings of their superiors in their Board-rooms. They
had heard a great deal about the Russsian Fleet, but he
did not think they had heard anything sufficient to induce
them to keep up so large a force as they had in the Me.
diterranean. The force there ought to bo sufficient. He
did not apprehend anything from any alarms about any
speedy attack on the part of the Russian fleet. The state
of the two countries was very well known, and it was im-
possible to suppose that adequate means could not be
immediately taken to repel any attack from that fleet.
The Noble Lord opposite, and his Noble friend behind
him, had adverted to certain statements in the pamphlet
to which he had alluded as to the decrease of able seamen.
Their Lordships might depend upon it that it was abso-
lutely incumbent on this country in all times hereafter to
keep up a larger force even in time of peaco than
had been thought necessary by the Government.
Their Lordships must not forget that the state of
education in the Navy was falling off, and they could
not now get the number of thorough-bred seamen they
used to get. The coasting trade wat 41moit gone for
seamen; the Warn- Ve4sels had nearly monopolized it.
The only part of the coasting trade that remained was
the coal trade, and unless a larger proportion of Naval
men were kept up now there would lot b 0 the means
in case of any emergency of reinforcement, which before
were at command. There was a statement in a paper
on navigation on their Lordships' table, which curiously,
coincided with his views, and it would be seen by a re-
ference to that part of the paper that while it showed
a little increase in the foreign trades rather, a look-
in downward; of casting tcaqe, aR .ro44oeci
able scallion thre yNs obe drawn fconq a most un-
foriurite eonelusiow et4r the Admiralty would
pit into service snffieigni number of able seamen to
r,',untcri..alanea the loss of being able to obtain a supply
from the coasting trade as formerly he could not
pretend to say, but sure he was . that the coirtr;
must think that a larger prqjtiont was eequired.
•