The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-16 00:00:00

The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member for the conduct of the Executive Government to. take other
University of Oxford, in having made the statement he ground, and I submit, in the first place, that this
had just done, had relieved him from the difficulty in which resolution of the House of Lords is such a one, that it is
he was placed. He was quite ready to affirm, and take incumbent upon this House to express an opinion upon the
upon himself, the entire responsibility of having ordered question one way or other.—( Loud cheers.) Sir, lam
those Members to withdraw.—( Hear, hear.) not saying that it may not have been perfectly right in the
Mr. CR A W FORD said that ho was not at all aware House of Lords to appoint such a Committee—if they con-
that any reference had been made to the Speaker, but such sidered that Ireland was in such a state of danger that the
being the case—having the greatest respect fur the decision insecurity of property was such as was represented by some
of the Chair, he should bow to it without another word, parties—if such was their opinion, it was necessary that
The SPEAKER said that perhaps it would be right they should appoint such a Committee,. but this I will say,
that he should state to the House the circumstances that that it is impossible for any one to say that that vote was any
had taken place.—( Hear, hear.) As he had stated be- other than n vote of censure upon the Government.
fore, the whole matter rested entirely with himself. When Why, Sir, no man I think can read even the terms of the
there was a large House, it was almost impossible for him resolution, pointing out the particular date at which it
to know whether the door was shut or not ; but last Fri- commences, and ending with the words that it " had ren-
day, there being only a few Members in the House, he dered life and property insecure in that part of
could distinctly see that the door was closed. Immediately the empire," without seeing that the plain conclusion
upon doing which he began to put the question.-- was intended to be drawn, that it has been the con-
( Hear, hear, hear.) When he was in the course of duct of the Administration which has thus exposed life
doing so ho saw the door forced open, and three and property to peril in Ireland. But if we were in any
Members enter the House. He immediately requested doubt about that, it is to be recollected the House of Lords,
that they should withdraw, and sent for the Sergeant to who, by the way, seem particularly favourable to breach
know under what circumstances those Members had ob- of privileges of this kind have allowed by the usual breach
tained admission. His statement was that he had closed of privilege the debate upon the subject of this
the door, and was keeping it shut with the assistance of a motion, to circulate throughout the country. Why, that
messenger, when it was forced open. Hon. Members debate so circulated through the country, contains nothing
might, probably, be aware that the Sergeant had met but accusations. Nearly the whole of it is a repetition of
with an accident which prevented him from shutting the accusation after accusation—of charges of an improper ex-
door so quickly as other persons might be enabled to do. cise of the prerogative of mercy—of charges of a want of
Mr. CRA W FORD could state upon his honour that vigor in the administration of the law—of charges of almost
the door is as partially open when he first approached. every species of negligence, even of criminality, which the
Mr. Alderman li UNI PH E Rl' said the door was half Lord Lieutenant can be guilty of. And, Sir, let it be re-
open when he came in.—( Laughter.) He could assure collected the very name of the mover is calculated to excite a
the Speaker that when be was at the door the Sergeant suspicion of the character of the motion.—( Cheers.)
had not got there, and three or four other gentlemen besides When we see the name of the person by whom the assault
himself would have got in, providing the door had not been is made, we can have no doubt of the colour of the
closed. —( Great laughter.) flag he bears.--( Hear, hear.) Let it be remembered,
Mr. R. STE UA RT felt bound to state that the door likewise, that as soon as the account of this vote came to
was closed, and that the question was half put when to Ireland, it was spread everywhere, through the most
the Honourable Member made his appearance. usual organs of those who entertain the views of that
Mr. GODSON was one of those Members to whom Noble Lord, that the House of Lords had passed a vote of
allusion had been made. He was behind the Hon. Mem- censure on hi r Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear.)
ber for Southwark, and was not aware that the Speaker's Why, I say, with respect to subjects upon which a people
order extended further than that the lion. Member oppo- unnaturally sensitive and alive with respect to subjects
site (Mr. Alderman Humphery) should be put out.— upon which great anxiety is equally felt, would it be pus-
( Laughter.) He felt very indignant at the time, not sible for us to allow that impression to go forth, that such a
knowing that any order had been given that personal vio. vote of censure had been agreed to, and not endeavour, by
lence should be used to any Member, the door being open, the means of submitting a motion to this House, to learn,
and he was relieved to find Mr. Speaker bad given orders whether or no the two Houses of Parliament were agreed
that three Members should not vote on the question. on that subject.—( Cheers.) Sir, one Noble and Learned
of course be bowed to that, but he felt it was a question Friend of mite is re-ported to have said it was a
that ough• to be brought before the House. prima fucie vote of censure. I entirely concur in that
POLICY OF MINISTERS—IRELAND. description of it. No doubt, upon investigation, the
Mr. SMITH O'B R lEN presented petitions from accusation might be disproved; but it is not pos-
seventeen parishes in Limerick, deprecating any change in sible for the Government to abstain from taking
the policy of Government towards Ireland. notice of a prima facie vote of censure any more than it
Mr. O'CONNELL—I mean to bring them up by dozens is possible for them to submit to a motion for a
The first petition I have is from the county of Monaghan, Committee of the whole House to inquire into the
praying the House to approve of the policy of Minsters in state of the nation, the character of which motion
regard to Ireland, and not to restore the domination of is universally appreciated by the House and the
Orange injustice in Ireland.—(Laughter on the Opposi. country at large to be a vote of censure.—( Hear, hear.)
tion Benches.) Those who would be the first to slaughter Sir, lam aware that the words e f the motion are framed
would be the first to laugh at it.—( Cries of " Order, with such art, that it certainly was possible for some per-
order.") Are you so dominant already that I cannot speak sons who had inclined to vote for it to think that it did not
but you must laugh ? convey censure—that it was only an inquiry into crimes.
Mr. LUCA s.—Sir, I rise to order.—( Hear.) But while it only takes from the candour of the proceed-
The SPEAKER.—The rule is, that an Hon. Member, ing, it takes off nothing from the list of accusations.—
in presenting a petition, should confine himself to the sub- ( Cheers.) I say, S'r, if that be the case, that it is not suf-
ject of it.--( liar.) ficient for the House to adopt a long and elaborate pre-
Mr. O'CONN E LL—I was doing so, Sir, and I was vious question, in the form in which the Right
met by a laugh.—( Hear, hear. ) I have a right to remark Hon. Gentleman proposes it, that previous questionibeing
on its brutalitv.—(Cheers from the Irish Members, and rather weakened than strengthened ,by the arguments in-
loud cries of " Order, order," from the Opposition benches ) troduced in the preamble by way of supporting it. A re-
Mr. LUCAS-1 submit the lion. and Learned Mem- ference is made to the returns ordered by this House.
her has no right to interpose his own sentiments when pre. Those returns were moved for, and my Noble Pr:end near
setiting petitions. Other Members do not, and I know of inc said lie thought them not unusual in their character,
no immunity he has that can justify him in doing so.— but he thought that other years should enter into the
( Hear, hear.) While I have the honour of a seat in return, so that there would be nothing invidious;
this House, I will never consent, nor silently sit still and my Noble Friend moved likewise that
while the Honourable Member does claim such im- the memorials should be given, provided it was
munities. I know of no laugh that proceeded from consistent with the public service and the due administra-
this side of the House.—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh 1") tion of justice ; there were words of modification introduced
The county from which the Hon. Member* presents the as to Ribbonism. Now these returns might be made with
petition, is the county which I represent, and I therefore the consent of the Government without implying in any
feel interested in the matter. I say that I know of no manner (and that was the view which my Noble Friend
laugh—(Oh.) There might have been.—( Oh.) Certainly arid 1 took of it) a censure upon the Government. But,
near me there was no intention to interrupt the presents- Sir, when a Committee is named, you have not that
tion of petitions ; but I call on you, Sir—( Loud cries of restraint with respect to the questions to be asked, but there
o Order.) I bow to your decision, Sir, but Ido not, and is this further question—if it be right, if it be proper
will not bow to the decision of the Hon. Gentleman— to have an inquiry into the Government of Ireland since
(Renewed cries of " Order.") 1835, why was not that motion, made in this House ?
Mr. GRATTAN made a few remarks, which were in. This House is the House of Parliament in which formerly
audible in consequence of the tumalt which prevailed. Parliamentary inquiries were moved.—( Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER said he was sure that Hon. Members I say if there is any proceeding of a grave character
would see the necessity of complying with the rules of the to be instituted, that proceeding must be instituted before
House, by abstaining from making remarks on the presen- the House of Commons ; and, therefore, the most proper
tation of petitions.—( Hear.) course is to move for an inquiry in the House of
Mr. O'CONNEL La-Sir, I was doing so, and the Hon. Commons, and to ask the House of Commons to give
Member for Monaghan, who affected to speak to order, an opinion upon the propriety of that inquiry.—( Loud
has brought forward no matter of order. He did not cheers.) I ask those who were in favour of this in-
hear the laugh. That laugh was disorderly, and I had a quiry—those who have told us year after year since the
right to complain of it.—( Order.) If he presumes to as- year I 535, that the Irish Government was unworthy of
sail me, I tell him—( Loud cries of " Order.")—l ask no coefiaence—that it was favourable to outrage, and almost
immunity.—( Renewed cries of " Order.) The Honour- giving encouragement to murder—l ask why' they did not
able and Learned Member then presented petitions this Is proper to move in this House any motion for inquiry,
from Dringlass, in the county of Tyrone, to the same but confine themselves to a motion for papers. Sir, I can
effect as the preceding one ; from Tyrone, signed by 1.700 only conclude from this proceeding, what makes it more
persons, the Rector of the parish being Mortimer O'Sulli- essential that this House should come to a decision
van ; from Enniskillen, signed by 1,300 persons; from upon the question, that not expecting to have a
parishes in the counties of Leitrim, Westmeath, Roscom• majority of this House in favour of the inquiry—that not
mon, and Kilkenny ; from Cashel, signed by 700 persons, being able to carry a vote of censure in this House, it was
from Donoughmore, county Down ; Tartallaghan, county determined to transfer to the other House of Parliament a
of Armagh ; St. Patrick, Waterford ; Mahera, and another proceeding by which a stigma and slur might be cast
pariah in Londonderry ; Enniskillen, Fermanagh ; New- upon the Government.—( Cheers.) Now against that
townards, Down ; Castlejordan, King's County ; Ballybro- proceeding I protest ; and if I were one of those who
gan, Meath ; Loughgall, Armagh ; Ballykil, Kerry ; Clon- thought this inquiry necessary, I should equally protest, I
fracle, Tyrone; Killeshandra, Cavan ; Killentree, \Vex- should equally say, I think the government of the
ford; Ardchat, Meath; Kilqueen and Kilmurry, Wicklow; Marquis of Normanby most mischievous and injurious,
Cloonish, county of Fermanagh ; Kilmohan, county Kerry; but I will not, as a Member of the House of Corn
St. Mary's Donybrook ; Monaghan, in the county of' mons, refuse to pronounce an opinion upon that—l will
Monaghan; St. Thomas's, Dublin ; St. Ann's Dublin ; not abdicate the right of the House of Commons to inquire.
Lissalgarran, Queed's County ; St. James, Dublin ; Holy- —I will not abandon the ancient practice of the House of
mahar, and Nore, Dublin; Kilmas, Dublin ; Glenask, Commons to censure and controul its Government.-1
Fermanagh, Kinnegad, Westmeath ; Kills, Meath; Barra, will not consent to pass in silence the misgovernment of
Core, and Dalouth, Meath ; Baldoyle, Dublin ; Cole- which I complain, but I will ask the House of Commons
marth, Down ; Nenigh, Tipperary, signed by 4,000; to pronounce with me a vote of inquiry, and fix the
Kilross ; parishes in Wicklow, and Donegal; St. Michael,
same censure which the House of Lords has fixed to those
and St. John, Dublin; Duff, Donegal ; Waterford ; Tho• proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, it is then stated that
mas-town, Kilkenny ; Staley Bridge (England) signed by all proceedings in any way will be an interference with the
some hundreds of Irishmen at work there, who had suffered House of Lords. I cannot perceive that. If the motion
under Orange domination in Ireland, and who entreated the be right, proceed in the same way that the House
House not to restore its baneful sway, and from parishes in of Lords has done, and say that we are not afraid to ask
Tyrorte,Antrim,Cavan,Down,Fermanagh,Queen's County, the opinion of the House of Commons—we entertain an
Tipperary, Limerick, and the City of Waterford. The opinion with respect to the conduct of the Irish Govern
Hon. and Learned Gentleman then said he should re- ment, and are not afraid to ask the House of Commons to
serve the presentation of the rest of the petitions which he decide upon it—we will not shrink from asking the House
had till to-morrow. of Commons to decide upon it.—( Hear, hear.) If Hon.
Mr. SHE IL presented 39 petitions from the County of Members opposite hold this language, how can they concur
Tipperary to the same effect, signed by upwards of in the previous questioa of the Right Hon. Baronet ?
23,000 persons. But Sir, if we are to pronounce an opinion in conformity
Mr. D. ROCHE presented several petitions from Lime- with that which I venture to ask of you, if it is said that
rick, signed by upwards of 8,600 persons, praying that the that opinion will interfere with the undoubted righ• of the
Orange faction might not return to power—( Hear, hear) [louse of Lords, I think it necessary to ask the Elouse to
—and that the present Government might be regarded as pause a little, to consider not what is their right, but what
a patriotic one. is the usual, and has been the necessary, practice of the
The O'CONOR DON presented several similar pe- Constitution. With respect to legislation itself, it is an
titions from Roscommon. undoubted right in the House of Lords to reject any Bill
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from Rochdale, that may be sent up from this House, tut if that right is to
praying that the House would not take any steps to adopt be carried to the extreme—if they were to reject the Con-
any resolution, or express any opinion tending to pre- soliditated Fund Bill—the whole country would be
judge the question submitted by the House of Lords thrown into confusion. If the country should he brought
to investigation, or pronounce a verdict on a case, into a state of war, and the Lords disapproving of it should
at present under trial, before the highest tribunal throw out all the Tax Bills sent them, though it
in the country, such a course not being consistent would be the undoubted right of the Lords to do so,
with the maxims of ordinary justice. it would be impossible for the eountry and this House not
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL the orders of the to pronounce some opinion upon the subjsct. So far as to
day were read over for the purpose of postponing them. the right of leislation. What then is the ptactical under-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought standing to which all parties have come for pa
long period ?
I should say that where there is a Bill sent from this
up the Report of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
[louse upon a very important subject, and upon which
MINISTERIAL POLICY IN IRELAND. there were very considerable numbers upon the one side
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—Sir, on
and on the other, on which there is only a small majority,
the 21st of March last the House of Lords resolved to ap- the
that the representatives of the people arc very
House of Lords may' most naturally and justly say it
point a Select Committee, to inquire into the state
of Ireland since the year 1835, with respect to crime and appears
nearly divided upon this subject. We cannot think
outrage,life and property insecure s
which have rendered that the country has yet made up its mind to this
in that part of the empire. Sir, I thought it my duty on
change ; let it be re-considered another year, and let us
the very next day to state the views which I took of that
know whether the change is a change that is called for by
resolution of the House of Lords, and to say that I should
the people. On the other hand, if there is a Bill sent from
ask fur the expression of an opinion of this House this
House repeatedly by large majorities, declaring the sense
with respect to the administration of affairs in Ire- of
the country, why then it is usual for the House of Lords,
land. Sir, with respect to the importance of that
even holding an opinion against such a Bill, and adding
motion both to Ireland and the United Kingdom,
the abstract right to reject it at once, it is usual, in the
it is quite unnecessary that I should say anything. With
exet cise of tneir discretion and wisdom, to say we will not
regard to the anxiety which I feel on the subject of the
opp ;se it, since it is the general sense of the country, re-
motion that I have now to make, it is impossible that I
poatedly expressed, and we will confirm what is the opi-
should adequatelysexpress my feelings. I shall therefore
nion of the House of Commons. But, Sir, with respect
proceed, Sir, at once to state my views with respect to the
to the Executive Government, the case is somewhat
resolution of the House of Lords, and with respect to an
different, there may be, and there have existed, at dif-
amendment of which notice has been given by a Right
ferent times differences of opinion between the two Houses
Hon. Gentleman opposite. There are some points in that
amendment which, perhaps, it is necessary that I should with respect to legislation. One can easily imagine this
House agreeing to a Bill and the other dissenting from it,
notice before I go into the main subject of discussion
to night. It is necessary, Sir, that I should notice that part and that the two Houses may remain at variance a con.
of the amendment which says that the expression called . siderable time without any great evil happening to the
for is only an expression of opinion. It is necessary country. At the same time there are excepauns, and
that I should notice that part of the amendment which says there has been an exception of so grave a nature that Lord
that the expression called for is only an expression of opi- Grey's Government, with the consent of, 1 believe, every
nion on one up part of thepolicy of the Executive Go Member but one, did advise so large a creation of Peers as
verment. Sir, the reasonp why I have proceeded to would, in fact, have overwhelmed the independent of voice
ask for an opinion upon one part of the policy of the of the House of Lords. But with respect to the Executive,
Executive Government is because it is that part there cannot be such a difference of opinion—with
of its policy alone on which the resolution has respect to Executives, you must have an Executive in one
been entered on the journals of the other House. part or in another. You cannot have Ireland governed by
Let the [louse of Lords, if they should think it fit, carry a Lord [laddington and Lord Mulgrave.—(l-lear, hear.)
vote of censure upon other parts of the policy of the Go- You cannot have it conducted according to the opinions
vernment, and then I should think it equally impossible of the Right Hon. Gentleman and Lord Melbourne.
—(Cheers.) It is quite clear one or other would be
for the Government to remain at the head of affairs,
unless we were assured of possessing the confidence of this taken, and one also or the other would give confidence to
House.—(Loud cheers.) If it should please them to the existing Ministry. Now the question upon this
o._ccasion ie,. whether or not the House of Commont
prepare y, . .
enter into the question of the policy of the Government
same
should opinion cr
d to sa now that the House of
at home I shall be perfectly prepared to meet them. With i.. 3
Lords have expressed their opinion with respect
respect to Colonial affairs there are now some measures
to the
.Executive Government, this ELhmese enterthts
not, they
orwheterEenterta.ineingtthe
in this House, and others will be introduced which will
give them an opportunity of deciding upon our Colonial
d future bey conductedare
policy. If it shall please them to attack our policy withthe Executive Government
the sense of the House of
willing
acco ing to
respect to Foreign affairs, I; am sure that my Noble Friend Lords. e ld Now, Sir, I beg to inform the House such has
the Secretary in that department, if: they take that tue
not hitherto been It is quite true that for a long
the case.
for discussion we will not be afraid to answer them. Should ,
um peried of time, owing, as I think, to the corruption of this
they find fault with our conduct in the affairs of
.13.1gi
House,'exercised •
and the influence over it by the Crown,
which are now about to be settled, a question which
and by individual members of the House of Lords, there
at one time threatened to involve Europe in a war, [think
was no positive difference of opinion. But in former days
we should be able to answer that charge.—( Loud cheers. )
- 1 there lied been on and this House
more differences of opini , .
If it is imputed to us that our national honour has sur-
d 1 has not scruled to declare its opinion upon the subject.
feted in any degree in the dispute between France and Sir, inthe early of the last century there was a dif-
Mexico—( Cheers from the Opposition)—l think my Noble 1 .
Friend will be able successfully to answer oven that charge. i terence of opinion with respect to some persons, caused
by the conspiracy in favour of the Pretender.—
Should they, however, take another field, and turn to the '
affairs of the Foreign Department, which comes under , ( Hear, hear.) The opinion of the House of Lords was
rather unfavourable than otherwise to the Government.
the superintendence of my Right Honourable Friend
the President of the Board of Control, I think that upon 1 The House of Lords decided upon entering into the
that subject also we would be able to show that ove , examination themselves. This House immediately pro.
have not been unmindful of British interests, and have ' tested against it. In one of the protests they said—
" Your faithful Commons believe the administration of the
tried sedulously to avoid war. I wait till those charge
. Government best served when it is left to your Majesty,
_witch
shall be brought forward before we shall think it necessary
to bring them under the consideration of the House. It whom the law has taru_setoetdiotot ;
to
oando have sokfirmanaddeopuerndgerneaet
i 3 not from any fear or apprehension that the con- wisdom,tip oi youtrhat Majesty's affection
they can never apprehend so little your
from
duct of the Executive Government can justly be any conspiracy as when the examination thereof is under your
charged tiitb having entailed any dishonour upon the ' Majesty's direction.
emptr • e that see do not bring these things now before " Your faithful Commons do, therefore, most earnestly de.
the House. Sir, ft has pleased those who condemned the sire your Majesty to suffer no diminution of that prerogative