The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-06 00:00:00

~-
EVENING EDITION.
....---, arm.o.....ccr. -.-,...-- r -,,- --:-...------.....-...,„....,,,,... THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY JULY 6 1 1839. I.i.:VTININ- EDITION'
, A •
.1.... - .........-
-----•-..----
I the credit of the country being left on such a test say an example more discreditable and more fas tal to the 1 calculation was the greater expedition with which the 1 there was no engagement on the part of the Bank to do other- ' The Report was then received and the Bill was ordered to 1 Sasebosr, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be ! hope remained, he would cling to the Bill, which he firmly
Lear IReteteorr.ctaiorfietrhsewconold deli.ver their letters. By the 18th ' wise-there was no breach of the public faith, and had it acted be read a third time. ' i committed on Thursday.
as the Rink of England now possessed.--(Hear.) character of public men ho never heard
mmissio.ners of Revenue Inqniry, it in.apy other manner it would have been open to censure. This
I raising of interest had been productive of benefit-it had put a Mr. P. '1
HNoLAAINsoDNWmAoRveEdHthOeUstIori
reßadlLinL; ;
mmi ee on thisof i believed was calculated to produce the best effects.
i No Government ought to depend upon any private would believe that a measure of this sort svOualnd,behecanrer
to the importation of continental securities to be drawn Sir M. WOOD opposed the second reading of the Bill.
ill. '
Committee
thetl Ord Mr. WA 11BU RTON must repeat lii. couviction of the in.
establishment. -( Hear, hear.) The Government of sg.til he had actually 3 ti the Royal Assent give nto the appeared that the average time of delivering franked letters
: against this country ,the consequence was that the rate of Mr. ay being read for the House going into justice of the measure, and his determination to o ,pose an Bill
lIY
founded on similar pramii les to the ',nu intro tu • 1 by the lion.
had funnel that such a system would never
France ill. The present inceoeme'wasae-,85;3,000/.., and het Hon. was three seconds per letter, whilst that of delivering un- ! stop.
bl d •d 1 •P. THOMSON( must re•s the second readin that Mr. 'll T ' ' t
P - g .S. I 11 0 BRIEN put it to the Hon. and Learned Memb.a for Readme -' t Le'
-
Member for Kilkenny had expected a considers e re uc- pat etters was eighty seconds.-( Hear.) These results
I Interest had become higher, and instead of f • • .t• ' n. h b ' '
oreign securi as ig t, ut would take the dicu+sion on going into Committee Member for work well ; they had no advances from the Bank of
tion in tbe military penditure. Had the Han. Member were so striking, that he viewed with alarm any hesitation , Reading, whether, seeing the disinclination both The Bill was then 'ordered to be committed on Mnd y
: being transmitted to England to be drawn against Exchequer when the details of the meas-ureva ' •euld be gone into. of the Government and the
, House •to proceed with the mea- The Pleadings in t ourt (Indiaiell was committed.o'
France, 1 but paid all their expenses out of the public compared the militarye expenditure for 1837 with 1836. on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the ts, they had been transmitted to the Continent. He trusted Mr. 11. HINDE could not allow the Bill to pass without op- sure, he would not save the opposers
.of the Bill all further The Bankrupt Isialelny Bill eas read a third time and assed.
P
' resources. It was highly improper for the House of If he bed, what reduction had he found to have , expediency of adopting the plan of pre.payrnent. An ob- i explanation would setisfy the House as to the conduct of position. He was anxious that the measure should be re- trouble for ti e i present Session by •
, .NS Ithdrawin, the Bill The CHANCELOA. of the EXCHEQUER gave
Commons to leave the management of the finances of taken lace? If he had not found a reduction to have 1 jection had p d been urged by Mr. llaculloch that the üblic ' the Bank. TI ' .
P .e Hon. Member for Kilkenny hadalso (erred to a Select
said
Iles
.said, it he found uin inquiry, that he 41,1111 to. • • ' notice,
would be subject to great insecurity by means of stamps 1 that in the month of August last the Bank f E-theinorrow move for leave to bring in a Bill for
the country On such a broken reed as the Bank of taken place, on what ground was it he entertained such an IHOPE many of the provisit•ns of the Bill that all the labour that had been sPent on this tiPill b the rent:l,
teitmsition of taxes ; also a 13111 for continu-
, s ,
tngtana.-krtear, hear.) He felt bound to protest expectation now ? The Hon. Member for Greenock paid in advance, but a system of registration was proposed, ; million and a half of bullion in its coffers, and
he tal,:zdoslNai ere
rn,;tobljeOet
tnhdathheoumr ust protest against its being lost for the present Session, he certainly vvoti:d not must
the tug the drawback :
which would give greater security than under the present 1 Pens that such an enormous reduction had now taken placeln- i rea.ll a seicontd time.ata
against the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because hereafter would say they had made an incomplete '
opponents of the Bill to any unnecessary trouble, but at the The nth r Ordersof soap.
disposed '
the Day were then of, and the
trial of his experiment-the trial had been too system. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had rather ,
the amount. cohne(yeerozuhldadeulkt li After a few wards from .P
m Air. EASE, Mr. HUTT, and Lord : same time he begged to tell II n. Members, that as ton 'gas a House adjourned at One o'Cluck.
he thought that it was fraught with danger, and he
short-the people had not become habituated to snore prematurely introduced the subject of alarm amongst the te -_______......... _es__ ._...,. ........._. . ..._.... ' .
would undertake, when the subject came properly on
frequent communications, and therefore be should oppose paper manufacturers. But it was premature at present to - Placeinto this country to the value of seven millions sterling, I _ . .....--
for discussion before that House, to show that half ofdiscuss the details of the plan. Let the Government and ow was this to be paid for except in the precious metals? THE REVENUE FOB, THE ' .41
I LAB, AND QUARTER L NDING JULY 5 1839.
the misery that existed among the working classes was any
_ furthern o
House Hon.
that Ntlheemtbr e re
w fora loKilkentiy
d •of ' submitted •
remedy advertise their desire having plans which , •
The Hen. Member for Kik ' - • 3 in ..
notion of the quantity of i enny was entirely mistaken his
bullion in the Bank, and he hoped __-......---. s
produced by the bad manner in which the pecuniary wthoeuld d t tell the
by the introductionuof tayxation, but •would prevent the dangers of forgery, and let them !
i he
deficiency.was not would not continue to indulge in such wild arid vi • p '
sIODRT) No. 1.-An Abstract of the Net Produce of the Revenue of Great Britain in the Years and Quarters ended sth of July, 1838, and 6th of Jul}', 1839, shewing tho Increase
adopt the plan best calculated- • •
and no individual would hove to eflect that object, i statements as he hadHe had BtChneiODPYRIGHT BILL.
matters of the country were managed. He thought it by the reduction of institutions ; and he would say thatmace. to apologise for occupy- or Decrease on each head thereof.
was absolutely necessary that the House should he hadprophesied necessity ofreduction of the
a
They might either assign a pecuniary reward to the in- faith on the tofthe Bank YEAR II
have some inquiry on this subject. He ob- military establishments. When the Right Hon. Gentle- par
dividual who sent in the plan, leaving it to the paper been without giving it a contradiction. ---.............-....--„I ended 11 .., ended 1 jested to any addition being made to the debt of the man opposite was proposing that the House should pledge ees •fe
maker to avail themselves of the plan, or they might give
thew
aypae-nenrey
ont o
eachv o t e .
Mr. O'CONNISLL would not enter at all into what had just Oct. 10, Jan. 5, April 5, 1 July 5, i July 5, I; Oct. 10, 1 Jan. 5, 1 April 5, July 5, ' July 5, I'''-'"'"n'"-----.--------s` #-"'"'"-^"--------- --'
country without the knowledge of Parliament ; and that itself to make good the deficiency, he (Sir R. P.) fully
the manufacturer of the stamps the best plan :-Hewould 1
aptatretnet. ito list toNv i
Itihe
lei
aqluteersetidonthoenp
fallen
ot 'slit ai gel in
toSugarsugar DD.uttyy
aain,plilaiccaabtilee to Csour;liiedsa mt.! 1837 1838 1834 1 1834 i 1839 I 1 1838 1 1831 1 1839 183 . in, 1 increase. Decrease. " increase. Decrease,
expected he would have intimated to the House in whatfrom the Hon. Member, as he ished to confine his
. at sati.sfactorr.fl.le
........._
had been done by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, now.come to the question of the pledge to be given byCii!..torns.-Consnlidated Dittle'4 3,9:1141-82 3,11,•9,70b 3.151 i 07 3,453;,52 • - 1 3,1.9.,,W0 . 3,7..0,tra 3,1‘.7,,Z3 3,825,871 - -...............--........-....-............. ......................
- _ „,.
who, during the last three years, had added 3,500,0001. f A ril Parliament He must admit that the Right Honourable heartily supported the resolution ' both • its branches. That ' Fund ''' . • ,
the great taxation was to consist by which the deficiency
was to be met ; and if this had been the month_ o p ,3n308 I :311,"49 - - - 493;1.3 1,,,15,4 2 -•--
to the funded debt of the country, without the know- - d Gentle * .
9 opposite had argued this question with the most 11,505,034 893,570 605,395 ' ' 1,47:1,211 1,101,356 .10,423 and they had: been prepared to run the risk, prepared ,he thought would be one of he - - _ _ :: ::
_
thee most valuable legislative. reliefs - --_ __-
ledge of that House. It was not fit that the Govern-perfect . tntl•
to give the lower class the benefit of a facility o
.n.ster. p ac fairness. As far as he could collect the arguments 1 that hacrever b . ••Total Customs
been gisen to people of this countrysince he - • 5,436,116 4,52 ~278 4,061; 70 1 4,7041,400 ; 18,79 ,460 1 5,46.;271 4,834,38. 4 411 56) 4,7 :43 19 fo•4:`-il 4. 04-
. ment should he trafficking in Exchequer Bills, and themeans of additional they were in favour of Mr. Hill's plan, but the only difficulty i0,,9%3
~ course, and the merchants the - ' ' ENrise...
3,103,4(1 3.59 0161 /,711.5,'5•11 2,437,1 2i I 1,4 -9,296 14i ,113,. 59 3; 27, i!10 1,44., .11 '2,5 .. '1 Is I-; )3
'',)/.7i :tin.: ). .
funded debt of cite -About the k led s
. c country, c know led ofGentleman Is toad •Wh •
speculations if the Right Honourable ewas in the way of revenue. en he heard of this rate its importance It id s impossible to exagge- Stamps .
letterlie 1
1,62 -,:'52 1,544,1. 0 1,64 ~i 94 1A0,134 ' 6,-, 6,9,:l I 1,15,476 1 1,521, `..3 1,.4 0,2543 1,647: 23 0,,1i '275 '''' 'h7-
1.1•_.(1', 1:33.1.,9
Allwou be of immense importance to razes .
. 44,111
2-,964
Parliament. He was as anxious as any man to pre- had taken * this course, then it would have been Plan of the pledge to be given by Parliament, he said he his own -•
countrymen. parties in Ireland were agreed jeCoosltvOn ittisacends 418,1)06 376,000 369,00) 381,003 1,541, is; 410,000 365,000 39-4000 -36 -.1410 1-5:16:001
/ must see the resolution before he assented to it
, He upon the propriety and necessity of it, and 6 ~,0b 6, 09 65,', 0 40, VI 40.000 40!On0 '1
;c5,000 10,000 9,006 12,000
serve the credit of the country, and therefore it saw creditable to the Government, one which he might have they would be Miscellaneous....,..
wanted to know when it was that Parliament intended to surprised t fi d h •2,701 174 23,841 /0, 10 39,196 8,376 6,3.0 3.5,54.3 14,61 1 94,•• C 5'5,5 3
that lie thought the course Pursued by the Right Hon. induced the House to consent to; but with the sentiments - o n tat it was to be made a 4, :11
make good any contingent deficiency in the revenue ? Party qoestion of-that they were to be threatened into
Gentleman was extremely culpable. of the public credit which he entertained, how could he Total •Ordinary Revenue... - -----.----- -- -'
318 11,152,0.4 U 4 ~-43,992 1,811,931
--( Hear, hear, hear.) When the plan had under- a division upon it, and that this day week, wasthe day ''
' -,000 39,a i 7 5%711
Mr. W ALL ACE would not follow the course his now run the risk of losing 1,500,0001. ? Notwithstanding on which I
upon gone a fair trial, if there should be a deficiency, he should they were to have the struggle.-(Cries of ': No, no.'') The mutest arid other Moneys 36,7,3 97,708 3%019 ft 20,159 490,.75 20,4 4 let,,Co 31 85 t 30 1,. 25 406,'-6/ 3,313 19,:33
Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny had taken, but the joke of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, of resting
~ House ought not to shrink from it Re-payments of Advances . 164,798 90,4"3 88, •62 1..1,660 470,4.,2 1 194, ..24 1943,116 12 ,186 'A ~462 716,489 etc,o46
be ready to adopt any new tax, but he agreed with taclt was impossible to deny 74,..02
a reed, he did hope that the commercial class of society that that was intended, •
and that all the ; .--___e.
he would apply himself to that subject with which he Honourable Member for Greenock, that the present teret; petit.ons of the people Total Income 11,693,165 11,501,932 8,12t,714 I 11,347,962 42,9'72,773 112,3,9,0;5 , 12,349,263 8,091,0'47 11 654: 13; - 4
. , „ 43,0,1,432 2,6'17,97,
would consider, looking at the state of the Savings Banks, were to be frit 11,319 ;3•40.19
away into a question of how many Memb a 75,544
wag more conversant as Chairman of the Committee on lan couid not receive a fair trial in twelve months. er - The Amount -
which had been so deservedly eulo,gised, there was no cause P.,
did could be whipped up on each side of the House I -applied to the • Comsol.
1.------- -
Postage. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer He not want to raise . t would have dated Fund 8,102,692 9,9:70,262 6,481,149 6,750,952 30,915,055 1 9,641,134 6,5;)6,103 6,00 q 6 6(2 Deduct Deduct
for despondency arising from the public credit. The _ . any, but he trusted been different if there had been a proposition House.
. ,031 , , ,‘,24 31,849,392 Deer..ase.
had brought forward this question with a deeree of fair- that Parliament, when it was called upon to impose the - • .to separate Ditto, as Advances, and to pay off E Decrease.
Right Hon. Gentleman anticipated a deficiency at the end e resolution by dividing it into two-inio that part which re- cellequer Bills, issued as Ads x-
.inces lO 000 31,080 3,20) 78,150 122,430 126,000 50,44) 4:1,677 112,4 i '0 770,07; 11,119 ...... 75,944
news to all parties, avid although what the Right Hon. of the • in ' new taxes, would • dwhether it * •
year of about 911 000/ • but order to get at that ju ge
g or duceidd the postage, and that which (rave the pledge. That Ditto, as part of the Ways and Means '
Gentleman stated was true with regard to the Report - * * * ' ' f the re Proper to impose them or not. Could
anybody gainsay would have been the better way for 'Honourable Members to es the Year 2,980,413 2,790,590 1,645,365 4,548,9F0 11,915,28 S 2,591,941 2,102,860 2,964,, 840 91
49 4, ~ 3 P 2,429,963 tn
crease on Increase or:
s • . -
of a 3 the maximum, he had calculated an increase o , -
i that, 'f they have proceeded who had any objection to this • I •
of the i.,omlnlttee being in favour of it twopenny res.
• -cvenue over the present year to the extent of 29a,000‘. • got a surplus revenue from other sources, they resolution at all, Total 11,, 93,165 11,801,932 8,129,714 111,347,962 42,972,7;3 i; 1;4349,07, , . ~. . -------- the Year.
4? 3 i 9,, I 3 8,69_1,957 1 i,65t-,,107 143,049,432 2,+ 7,, the Quarter
, postage, yet he hoped he might be excused for stating, Then his estimated surplus would be 141,000/ ; but were to make new taxes for the purpose of keeping up that because then it would have been seen that both' e sides had been - 308,175
in fa
ledge. He would take the case of the advertisement dut your of the reduction. That had not been done but. the No. H.-Income and Charge of the Consolidated
Fund, in the Quarters ended the sth July, 1838, and the b
that, although the evidence taken before the Coni- then it would be necessary to provide for the expenses P
y' whole wasth July, 1839.
When that was reduced from 3s. 6d. to Is. dto be oosed. LetHonnlembers look at the advantage - -
m:ttee was in favour of a penny rate, yet the Meinbers of Canada to the amount of 1,530,0001., making the max- o course `hat this calculated tafford.
t. was o Gould any Quarters ended July S. -......-..............••••••••••• w................
of the Committee, alter voting for a uniform rate imum 913,0001. In case, however, the revenue of next considerable reduction took place in the revenue, but man considerthe
P ...................1.01, Quarters ended July S.
of postage, did not feel themselves authorised Year should equal the leat year, the deficiency would be it had been improving ever since, and in the course slheoeus IT
ira
have
end not agree
was to be indemnified ' CHARGE.
required against the expenee P Ms -7--7.-""ze N
of four years, it had reached upwardsof 75 per cen. of its ori-
-1,205,000/. ; and under these circumstances he (Sir R. of the Post-office. Na if Nay, the postage on letters was not safes. Cu toms•-. Consolidated Duties 3,453,052 3,825,670 Permanenti Debt. .-___--__,.___
to vote for the penny rate.-(Cries of " llear.") *mai amount Under such circumstances, would it be right in cient for that, Government ought to make a sacrifice - rue 4 • Saga •
appl.cable to the Terminable Annuities 8,113,097 8100,271
With regard to the pledge that had been required, he Peel) was called upon this day to e.ensent to a resolution
i'erliament to ut the bli
Cornsolidated Fund 1 l'r 149 1 145 411 Interest '7 9,104 738,214
~ purpose of faeilitatine communication. It ought not to be ~ ~. , , , on Exchequer Bins issued to meet the charge on the Consolidated Fund
which, according to the prophesy of one of the warmest
new taxes put Pon them until the measure had been fairly tried bu th I•• •'' -- Sinking Fund 19,211 15,162
must say, looking at the vast number of petitions which ficienc of He
r enet with a single farthing more than defraying its ex- Total Customs 4,709,100 4,571,333 The Civil List
promoters of the plan, might involve a de
__ y
which he considered could not be done under three years - -
hai come before that House, that he was sure so nume-e It had however, been
, , made a source of revenue and Other charges on the Consolidateu Fund
4 All the teat •
f,shenoo/. The. Right Hon. Gentleman sa,..- A g . believed that in that time a revenue equal to the present Pen%s.
roux and respectable a class would not send represents- inion h
) & .on communication be- txcise
44 t . orit! -es were in favour of it but a more decide-1 0
, ,p i e found to result from the adoption of the new plan. He thought twee 1,6,2,134 1,847022 7Srlai 172,400
n the poor : a tax light upon the
, e rich, but heave u the "amps
tives to that Hous,! who would not be willing to redeem
against it could not be found than was expressed by Col- the Government were entitled to the of the thanks country for poor-arid that was the s •stem on whichparty • • on le e axes neo ',5,04 1,639,3'72
Total Charge
politics was now Post Office
any pledge that might be given to attain so desirable an Maberlev. He considered whole R - , the course they had adopted, and he hoped the public would to be called forth, )
•th, for the purpose of keeping in • up this country Crown Lands 40,0011 The Surplus
1,830,301 2,124,034
object. With regard to what had been said regarding land Hill as impracticable; as utterly unsupported by facts, properly appreciate what they had d0ne.10,701 14,611
a systemlf lwhich burthened the poor, interfered with all the Miscellaneousre
petitions, he was inclined to agree in the opinion that 4 and as resting on assun ption. He stated that every ex- Mr. W. ATTWOOD said, if the Right Hon. Gentleman socia e.e ings of life prevented parents from hearing from RePia •m andriother Moni6 - s 320,734 301,6' 5 • 11,368,1-3 11,925.1
meant by the resolution that Members were bound t led
.o pge 1 y e tof Advances 127,160 2 2,462
23
••••••,/,............
considerable degree of agitation existed on the subject, riment of the Post-office afforded conviction against it, andtheir children, and husbands from the' I-1 -,
their wives. He die not
themselves to accept any tax they might choose to psopose to charge this on the Hon. M be e arge n cl.for the Quarter ended A 'l5 1839
and he must say that when this great commercial capi- if the postage were to be reduced to a penny the revenue
3eime r, who had no doubt been ins- 11,358,163 11,03,123 and paid off out of the growing.'
produce of that Fund for the Quarter ended July a, 1-39 pri , ,
muke up the defliciency, he thought he would have some posed upon. That Hon..' The Amount issued in the Quarter 5,137,095
tat had come forward in the manner in which the Lon- would not recover it for 40 or 50 years. But that was
difficultv on getting Hon. Members on that side of the H • mber charged the Bank of Ene- Tor, Cash brought to this Account dated Fund for Supply Services ended July 5, 1839, in part of the stints:granted by Rzliament out of the Consoli-
don Postage Committee had come forward last year, the period perhaps at which Parliament was to expect to give him that pledge. With respect House land with having broken faith with the commercial üblibe
to the state- The Bank of England, towards the expiration ofeach 11
. from Ireland, to be applied to pay The Surplus of the Consolidated Fund, Quarter ended July 5, lIM
it was no n-ondee that the sympathy of their countrymen Chancellor of the had been in the habit of making advances laughter.) He did not say that this opinion was entirely Exchequer relative to then financesc byof theeon bills of e The probable amount of Exchequer Bills required to meet the charge on the Consolidated Fund, Quarter ---*-----
was excited to jolt: with them in asking for this boon.
„,n,..hy
inwhiph
hp,,fpri,etoubn,,ty.,lo..u,li:lin..ot change. This acted beneficially, as it tended to equalize txlie 11,368,15i3 11,5e5,153 I July 5, 16.3:4
- - ••

say an example more discreditable and more fatal to the
character of public men ho never heard, and he never
would believe that a measure of this sort would 7.be carried
'anti' he had actually seen the Royal Assent give n to the
Bill. The present income was 47,853,000/., and the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny had expected a considerable reduc-
tion in the military expenditure. Had the Ken. Member
compared the military expenditure for 1837 with 1838 ?
If he had, what reduction bed he found to have
taken place ? If he had not found a reduction to have
taken place, on what ground was It he entertained such an
expectation now ? The Hon. Member for Greenock
hereafter would say they had made an incomplete
trial of his experiment—the trial had been too
short—the people had not become habituated to snore
frequent communications, and therefore be should oppose
any further taxation. The Hon. Member for ,Kilkenny
would no doubt tell the House that the true way to remedy
the deficiency was not by the introduction of taxation, but
by the reduction of institutions ; and he would say that
he had prophesied a necessity of a reduction of the
military establishments. When the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite was proposing that the House should pledge
itself to make good the deficiency, he ( Sir R. P.) fully
expected he would have intimated to the House in what
the great taxation was to consist by which the deficiency
was to be met ; and if this had been the month of April,
and they had: been prepared to run the risk, and prepared
to give the lower class the benefit of a facility of inter-
course, and the merchants the means of additional
speculations, if the Right Honourable Gentleman
had taken this course, then it would have been
creditable to the Government, one which he might have
induced the House to consent to ; but with the sentiments
of the public credit which he entertained, how could he
now run the risk of losing 1,500,000/. ? Notwithstanding
the joke of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, of resting upon
a reed, he did hope that the commercial class of society
would consider, looking at the state of the Savings Banks,
which had been so deservedly eulogised, there was no cause
for despondency arising from the public credit. The
Right Hon. Gentleman anticipated a deficiency at the end
of the year of about 913,000/. ; but, in order to get at that
as the maximum, he had calculated an increase of the re-
venue over the present year to the extent of 295,000/.
Then hi estimated surplus would be 141,0001 ; but
then it would be necessary to provide for the expenses
of Canada to the amount of 1,530,0001., making the max-
imum 913,0001. In case, however, the revenue of next
year should equal the lest year, the deficiency would be
1,e05,000/. ; and under these circumstances he ( Sir R.
Peel) was called upon this day to consent to a resolution
which, according to the prophesy of One of the warmest
promoters of the plan, might involve a deficiency of
1.300,0001. The Right Hon. Gentleman sa,'!"l All the great
authorities were in favour of it, but a more deciries'i opinion
against it could not be found than was expressed by Col.
Maberlev. He considered the whole scheme of Mr. Rowe. •
land Hill as impracticable; as utterly unsupported by facts,
and as resting on assun ption. He stated that every ex-
riment of the Post-office afforded conviction against it, and
if the postage were to be reduced to a penny the revenue
would not recover it for 40 or 50 years. But that was
the period perhaps at which Parliament was to expect
to be called upon to redeem its pledge.—( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He did not say that this opinion was entirely
to his own satisfaction.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches. He did not wish to say a word upon it one
way or th other, because he declined to enter upon the
consideration of the subject at present. He knew that if
he were to speak in favour of it, that that would be a
much more popular course. He knew he had presented
petitions from his own constituents in favour of it. The
Right Hon. Gentleman, by his sarcastic cheers, would
have the House believe that he (Sir R Peel) was afraid of
popularity. Why, if he wanted to curry popularity, he
should assent to the proposition. He should say—don't
be alarmed about the public revenue, it was a commodity
of elasticity, and it would yet yield to the exigency of
the case. He would not say so, but if he thought
he was committing himself upon the abstract merits of
this resolution—it he stood alone and voted alone he
should oppose it, and would refuse to be a party to
such a resolution, brought forward for the first time
this night, with the House before ignorant of its con-
tents—( Hear, hear)—and it was only because he con-
sidered the resolution to be the foundation of a Bill
that he did not at once oppose it, but reluctantly gave
his assent to the bringing in of a Bill, because he con-
sidered that to be a more constitutional mode of proceed•
ir,g. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad directed the at-
tention of the House to the Corn-laws and to the state of
the Savings Banks—and observed that an inference might
be drawn from them well worthy of consideration. But
if that were so it was to be observed that the export of
British bullion had had no tendency to diminish the increase
of the export of British commodities. But he wished
particularly to refer to the Hor,. Gentleman's statement as
to the Savings Banks, because he said, notwithstanding
the high price of corn, so far as the comfort and social con-
dition of the people could be inferred from the Savings
Banks, the inference was exceedingly satisfactory, and he
quoted a paper which showed the amount of the deposits
and of the withdrawals in and from the Savings Banks for
years. Now he ( Sir R. Peel) would refer to that, not as
conclusive in regard to the Corn-laws, but as affording a
source of consolation, and the House would find that during
the last year the total amount of deposits was, 1,495,0001.,
and the withdrawals 463,000/. So that in the course of
last year, with a deficient harvest, there was a much larger
deposit than ever was known in former years, and a much
smaller withdrawal. As the Right Hon. Gentleman had
thought proper to refer to this for one purpose, he ( Sir R. P. )
also begged to refer to it, though he did not desire to
draw from it any unfair advantage in support of his own
views upon the Corn-laws. The general state of finance
of the country had been so much exhausted by his Right
I Honourable Friend near him, that it was not his intention
'ain to travel over the same ground. He trusted the
ptig;,-! Honourable Gentleman would name a day—no very
early day--on which to bring up the Report upon this
resolution, an Ott which the House should have an oppor-
tunity of fully ~ensidering these two questions; first,
whether in the presen: state of the credit of the country,
it would be proper to ha:ard a revenue of 1,500.000/. ;
douse would be prepared to
and, secondly, whether the 11".1
adopt an example of fettering Par:ement by a pledge, to
impose some future pledge, in respect which at present
there was no indication by Government, to make up an
uncertain deficiency.
Mr. WARBURTON rejoiced that her Majesty's Go-
vernment was determined on this occasion to proceed by
Bill and not by Resolution, because it was a plan of such
magnitude as certainly ought to be submitted to the deli-
berate consideration of Parliament, so that if there could
be anything in reference to this proceeding to be ob-
jected to, it must be the proceeding by a resolution only.
Parliament ought to pronounce a definite opinion upon
whether it would adopt the plan or not, and if it did not
adopt it, it would be for the Government to approve or
disapprove of the conclusion. The House had to consider
the position in which this question really stood. They had,
from the returns before them, and from the body of
evidence before the Committee, the fact established, that
whether they looked to the revenue of England,
Scotland, or Ireland, they found the Post-office
revenue had been stationary. and occasionally re-
trograding. Were there any facts to afford a like-
lihood that this stationary condition would be altered?
He would take upon himself the responsibility of showing,
from the investigations which would be found in an Ap-
pendix to ti,e Report of the Committee, that a reduction
upon the charge of each letter by the Post-office might in
the result be met as from 1,000 to 14,000 per cent.—that
is to say, upon the cost of transmitting the letters. When
the Post-office authorities stated that the present state of
things could not be permanent, were they to leave matters
in the state in which they found them, because there was
rather a deficiency than a surplus in the revenue. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was a disposition
in the House to run into extravagance. But were they,
because one branch of the revenue was in the state in
which the Post-office revenue was, to delay applying the
proper remedy to that branch ? If this disposition to ex.
travagance existed, and they were to wait until that dispo-
sition was altered, they might wait for 30 or 40 years.—
( Hear, hear.) The circumstance of there being this de-
ficiency was no reason why a remedy should not be applied
to this branch of the revenue, which was in a most
disgraceful state. Colonel Maberley stated that the
present rates of postage were too high for the
interests of the public, and too high for the
interests of the revenue—that a reduction would be advan•

I the credit of the country being left on such a test
! as the Bank of England now possessed.—(Hear.)
i No Government ought to depend upon any private
establishment.—( Hear, hear.) The GoVernment of
France had found that such a system would never
work well ; they had no advances from the Bank of
France, but paid all their expenses out of the public
resources. It was highly improper for the House of
Commons to leave the management of the finances of
' the country on such a broken reed as the Bank of
England.—(Hear, hear.) He felt bound to protest
against the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because
he thought that it was fraught with danger, and he
would undertake, when the subject came properly on
for discussion before that House, to show that half of
the misery that existed among the working classes was
produced by the bad manner in which the pecuniary
matters of the country were managed. He thought it
was absolutely necessary that the House should
have some inquiry on this subject. He ob-
jected to any addition being made to the debt of the
country without the knowledge of Parliament ; and that
had been done by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
who, during the last three years, had added 3,500,0001.
to the funded debt of the country, without the know-
ledge of that House. It was not fit that the Govern-
ment should he trafficking in Exchequer Bills, and the
funded debt of the country, without the knowledge of
Parliament. He was as anxious as any man to pre-
serve the credit of the country, and therefere it saw
that he thought the course pursued by the Right Hon.
Gentleman was extremely culpable.
Mr. W ALL ACE would not follow the course his
Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny had taken, but
he would apply himself to that subject with which he
was more conversant as Chairman of the Committee on
Postage. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had brought forward this question with a degree of fair-
ness to all parties, acid although what the Right Hon.
Gentleman stated was true with regard to the Report
of the Committee being in favour of a twopenny rate of
postage, yet he hoped he might be excused for stating,
that, although the evidence taken before the Coni-
m:ttee was in favour of a penny rate, yet the Members
of the Committee, after voting for a uniform rate
of postage, did not feel ! themselves authorised
to vote for the penny rate.—(Cries of " llear.")
With regard to the pledge that had been required, he
must say, looking at the vast number of petitions which
had come before that House, that he was sure so nume-
rous anti respectable a class would not send representa-
tives to that House who would not be willing to redeem
anypledge that might be given to attain so desirable an
object. With regard to what had been said regarding
petitioliss he was inclined to agree in the opinion that d
considerable degree of agitation existed on the subject,
and he must say that when this great commercial capi-
tat had come forward in the manner in which the Lon-
don Postage Committee had come forward last year,
it was no n-ondee that the sympathy of their countrymen
was excited to jolt: with them in asking for this boon.
With regard to the lose to the revenue, he
thought that during the first year there would
be a short-coming—that during the second year
there might also be some degree of defalcation,
but that such an increase would take place in the third
year as would ...Hake up the deficiency of the former two.
Phis was his sinoere and honest conviction. With regard
' to the resolution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it
e'as admitted on all hanels that it was necessary to give
effeoe ,to this plan. It was quite true that the Treasury
and the' .Postmaster-General had the power to reduce the
rates of pootage—it was quite true that during the last
Session a ci.ause in a Bill had been passed to enable the
Treasury anel the Postmaster-General to insist on the post-
see
b,.i„g paid in advance. It was also necessary to give
that power to the. Chancellor of the Exchequer willed he
F stated he rcquired, and he hoped the House would sanc-
tion the passing of the resolution which had been brought
before them, so that do'? country might be enabled to take
the lead in conferring one' of the greatest boosts that could
he conferred on the human race before other court-
-1 tries. Other countries v..'ve making anxious in-
quiries on the subject. "i'.'ie Postmaster-General
t of France and the Government of that country had been
t meting inquiries on that subject with I view to adopting
1 in that country a similar plan to the one proposed by Mr.
Rowland Hill, and Le knew that the Government of the
I United States of America were in active correspondence
l with certain parties in this country, with a view to the
adoption of the same plan ; and other contirier:el nations
~- were instituting similar inquiries with the same or,ject in
view, and be did consider it would be blameworthy in
II this country, for the sake of five or six hundred thousand
i pounds, not to have the honour of initiating a plan which
I rag so essential to the comfort of the human race. He
•
would not go into details, but he differed from the Chan-
i cellor of the Exchequer as to the method to be pursued in
1 the adoption of the plan. He believed that stamped paper
of all kinds sight be brought into use without giving a
monopoly to any party. He was of opinion that
loose stamps, like French wafers, might be ad-
vantageously used, those wafers had been presented
to the Treasury, and td the public offices, and
looking to the evidence of Nr. .1. Wood and the
ether gentlemen connected with ti., Stamp Office before
the Committee, there could be no ie..mr of the revenue
suffering from forgery, in consequence of the adoption of
sue plan.
There was one other subject to which the
' Right Hon. Gentleman had not adverted. It aTPellred
' from the nkidence of Lord Ashburton and other lea:ling
men, that rue diminishing the rate of postage would be
r, very effectual in increasing other branches of the revenue,
in consequence of the increased facility of communication,
and he thought that the increase derivable from this source
would more than compensate for any deficiency that might
happen in the Post-office revenue. It was proved that
I 80,000,000 letters passed annually through the Post-office,
/ and he believed that there was twice that number which
did not, and which could not do so, in consequence
of the adoption of this plan. It would also be !
of importance to the Colonies, and he believed !
I that many of the heartburnin,gs under which the
i colonies now suffered would never have been felt, had the
1 colonists had a cheap mode of communicating with their
friends in this country. The progress of the question had
been immense. ft was proposed at the beginning of the
last Session. and 320 petitions had been presented in fa-
vour of it—from 144 towns and cities, from 73 town-
councils, and from 19 chambers of commerce. This year
the number of petitions had increased to leAOO, showing
au increase of fivefold. The Report, too, of the Select
Committee was absolutely not now to be procured, being
out of print. He believed the plan would not benefit the
i higher classes of the community, so much as those who
were now, from the great rate of postage, absolutely de-
barred front intercommunication. It would also power-
i fully assist emigration, by enabling emigrants to communi-
cate with their friends iu this country; and it would also
f alleviate the hardship; of those who, in consequence of the
Poor-law Act (of which, however, he approved) were
ll shut up in workhouses, to be able to communicate with
t = their friends without, at the low rate of one penny. He
i had ;frequent communications with Mr. Rowland Hill,
: to whom belonged the glory of discovering this plan, and
he had found him a man of honest and ingenious mind,
ii totally above misleading any person, and anxious that all
his representations should be based upon the truth alone.
He had always found him every thing that was honest and
.!, praiseworthy, tied he was satisfied that he was entitled to
the lasting irratimie of his country.—( Cheers. )
1 Sir ROBERT PEEL would acknowledge that,
notwithstanding a defleient state of the public reve-
-1 = slue, if he saw a plan proposed which, although
it would decrease the postage revenue, would
compensate for this by the advantages which result
from the establishing a tree communication by letter, he
. might be induced to consent to it. But such was not the
~ proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Now
cn the oth July he wishes to pledge the house to make
! good any deficiency which might result in consequence
of the adoption of
_that plan. He called upon the House
to give a vague pledge to this effect. It was highly im-
, probabb. that he (Sir R. Peel) should have advised
i this risk, but bad be done so he would much rather
our, the risk without the pledge than with it. The
i R,.eht Hon. Gentleman asked them to give their ho-
•
noth's to fulfil this pledge, but when his Right Hon.
Fssess,l the Member for Pembroke had made some ub-

there was no engagement on the part of the Bank to do other- , The Report was then received, and the Bill was ordered to
wise—there was no breach of the public faith, and had it acted be read a third time.
in any other manner it would have been open to censure. This INLAND WAREHOUSING BILL.
raising of interest had been productive of benefit—it had put a Mr. P. THOMSON moved the second reading of this Bill.
sten to the importation of continental securities to be drawn I Sir M. WOOD opposed the second reading of the Bill.
against this country ; the consequence was that the rate of Mr. P. THONISON must press the second reading that
Interest had become higher, and instead of foreign securities s night, but would take the discussion on going into Committee,
being transmitted to England to be drawn against Exchequer i when the details of the measure would be gone into.
Bills, they had been transmitted to the Continent. He trusted ! Mr. H. HINDE could not allow the Bill to pass without op-
this explanation would satisfy the House as to the conduct of position. He was anxious that the measure should be re-
the Bank. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had also said ferred to a Select Committee.
that in the month of August last the Bank of England had nine Mr. HOPE considered many of the proyisiens of the Bill
million and a half of bullion in its coffers, and he asks how it hap- ! most objectionable, and he must protest against its being
pens that such an enormous reduction had now taken place in , read a second time at that hour.
the amount. The Chancellor of the Exchequer could explain i After a few words from Mr. PEASE, Mr. HUTT, and Lord
that satisfactory. This year an importation of corn had taken
place into this country to the value of seven millions sterling,
and how was this to be paid for except in the precious metals?
The Hen. Member for Kilkenny. was entirely mistaken in his
notion of the quantity of bullion in the Bank, and he hoped
he would not continue to indulge in such wild and visionary
statements as he had made. He had to apologise for occupy-
ing the time of the House, but he could not allow a breach of
faith on the part of the Bank to be so broadly asserted as it had
been without giving it a contradiction.
Mr. O'CONN ieLL would not enter at all into what had just
fallen from the Hon. Member, as he wished to confine• his
attention to the question on which they were to vote. He
heartily supported the resolution in both its branches. That
part of it which altered the postage to a penny on each letter
he thought would be one of the most valuable legislative• reliefs
that had ever been given to the people of this country since he
had had a seat in Parliament. It was impossible to exagge-
rate its importance. It would be of immense importance to
his own countrymen. All parties in Ireland were agreed
upon the propriety and necessity of it, and they would be
surprised to find that it was to be made a
party qoestion of—that they were to be threatened into
a division upon it, and that this day week, was the day on whicli
they were to have the struggle.--(Cries of 't No, rn') The
House ought not to shrink from it. It was impossible to deny
that that was intended, and that all the petitions of the people
were to be frittered away into a question of how many Members
could be whipped up on each side of the House. It would have
been different if there had been a proposition made to separate
the resolution by dividing it into two—in.o that part which re-
duced the postage, and that which 'crave the pledge. That
would have been the better way for Honourable Members to
have proceeded who had any objection to this resolution at all,
because then it would have been seen that both sides had been
in favour of the reduction. That had not been done but the
whole was to be opposed. LetHonnlembers look at the advantage
that thi3 was calculated to afford. Could any man considerthe
question and not agree with him that all the Government
should have required was to be indemnified against the expence
of the Post-offiee. Nay, if the postage on letters was not softie
cient for that, Government ought to make a sacrifice for
purpose of facilitating communication. It ought not to be
burthened with a single farthing more than defraying its ex-
pences. It had, however, been made a source of revenue, and
how ? By almost laying a prohibition on communication be-
tween the poor : a tax light upon the rich, but heavy upon the
poor—and that was the system on which party politics was now
to be called forth, for the purpose of keeping up in this country
a system which burthened the poor, interfered with all the
social feelings of life prevented parents from hearing from
their children, and husbands from their wives. He did not
charge this on the Hon. Member, who had no doubt been im-
posed upon. That Hon. Member charged the Bank of Eng-
land with having broken faith with the commercial public.
The Bank of England, towards the expiration of each quarter,
had been in the habit of making advances on bills of ex-
change. This acted beneficially, as it tended to equalize the
circulation. Early in June the Bank had given the usual notice
He thought it was bad enough to make Canada a party question
—bad enough to make Jamaica a party question ; the Poor-
law had been made a party question, and many Members, be
believed, had come into that House by raising a cry against
the Poo. law ; but this, which was such a burthen to the poorer
classes, ought surely to be exempt from party feeling. Now,
there were a great loony of his countrymen in London who
might wish to write to their friends in Ireland, One thing was
well known of them, and that was their universal desire to save
a little money to send over to their poor friends in Ireland,
and, for his own part, he wished he had forty franks a day,
because he was sure he could dispose of them, in assisting his
poor fellow countrymen in that manner, to the best possible
advantage. If, for this purpose, the poor man paid the postage
of his letter, he paid more than two days wages in London. If
he did not pay the postage of it, it cost a weeks wages to the
party who received it in Ireland in postage ; that was one-
fiftieth of the income of the party who received it. If
the higher classes in this country.—lf the gentleman
he was now addressing, were so taxed as that—
they could not receive a letter from their sons without paying a
fiftieth of their annual income for it, he did not know what the
extent of indignation would be that would not be expressed by
them. —( Hear, hear.) It was inquired what the deficiency
was to be raised from. Was it to be put upon salt, malt, or
corn ? That was part of the tactics of the gentlemen opposite.
He wished the Ministers to fix , upon some tax that peradven-
ture there might be some objection to it. And all this was thrown
out before it was certain there would be any loss at all. He wished
Hon. Members to look at the effect of railroads. Upon the only
railroad in Ireland a redaction of a penny upon 9d. had in-
creased the numbers of passengers going by the carriages 27
per cent in four months, and in that way of looking at it in all
probability in a very short time any immediate decrease would
be fully made up. Who could estimate the immense increased
quantity of letters that would be written in consequence of this
reduction. He thought the probability was, that instead of the
revenue being diminished, it would be considerably increased,
and were they to have a party trial under such circumstances,
Were they disposed to confirm the vote for reducing the rate of
postage? If they were, why then should they refuse to pledge
the House that the deficiency should be made up ? Why they
must make it up—( Hear, hear)—and were they to oppose the
most useful of all measures because it was incumbered with a
superfluous pledge ?—( Hear, hear.) Were they to oppose it
because the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as an honest man,
had thought he was bound to require this security, that the
public should not sustain any loss by it? He thought the
House would pause before it agreed to a suggestion so absurd.
Ile never supported a motion with greater pleasure.
_than he
did the present.
--
Mr. H. HINDE regretted that the Right Hon- Gentleman
opposite had not brought forward a proposition to reduce the
duty on post horses. He did not in this accuse the Right
lion. Gentleman of a breach of faith, but he thought the post-
horse masters would consider it very unsatisfactory to be told
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he refused to reduce
that duty, but that he would give them a reduction in the Post-
office. In reference to the Post-office, he was of opinion that
the House and the country ought to have time to consider the
nature of the pledge that was now submitted to them.
Mr. DARBY complained of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin having accused Gentlemen on his side of the House
of attempting to bring forward a party spirit to the considera-
tion of this question, simply because they wished to have time
to consider the effect of the proposition made to them by the
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite. If a tax were to
be placed on steam boats to raise the anticipated de-
ficiency, he was sure the Honourable Member for Greenock
would complain of that. if it were to be placed on Malt,
he himself would complain of it ; and if it were to be
placed on salt all the public would complain of it. It was unfair
also in the Hon. Member for Dublin to complain that those on
the opposite side of the House had not separated the resolutions.
Why did he n_t address that to the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, who had pledged himself either to carry the whole reso-
lution or to withdraw it?
Sir JOHN R. REID was surprised that the Ho-
sntoituureanbtlse
ofa b
'Memberreafochr
oKiilkternusnt. Kilkenny
..e re
hadu
accgurseetdtedhitshateohne-
was not in the House at the tine the observation was made,
otherwise he ( Sir John R. Reid) might have been disposed
to have taken the Hon. Member up shorter than he was then
disposed to do.—( Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) The con-
duct which the Hon Member pursued in reference to the Bank
was a regular endeavour to talk it down, and his example was
followed by several newspapers—(Laughter)—hosvever, as to
the course which was pursued, he was perfectly satisfied they
acted rightly and conscientiously.
Mr HUME could assure his Hon. Friend opposite that he
mean no offence to him when he said that the Government of
the Bank of England was entrusted to a reed. He was perfectly
aware that the Directors of the Bank were all very sharp. But
what would the Honourable Gentleman opposite take him up
upon? He had not condescended to state. The Honourable
'Member for the City of London had said that he (Mr. H.)
had made an unfounded attack on the Bank. Now he had
taken every pains to have the subject fully and fairly discussed ;
but if, when he brought the subject forward, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer took the Members out of that House, or if
Members found their way out of the House without any inter-
ference on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so as
to occasion the House to be counted out, that was no fault of
his. Everything lie had said or would say was and should be on
documents connected with the Bank. He only wished the
Bank to produce their documents. Let them produce them
and he would show that they were calculated to create a false
impression on the public. The matter had now been began—
let it go on to he thoroughly discussed, and he should be :atis-
tied, because he did not wish any Director to stand up,
and state that he said any thing not consistent with facts.
One word in explanation as to the remark of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, There was Leman in the House more anxious
to support public credit than he (Mr. II.) had always been,
because he considered that it would be one of the grossest acts
of injustice to break faith with the public creditor.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON wished to put the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny right, by telling him that the notice of
the 20th May had no reverence to Exchequer Bills, and that
the Bank for years had net been in the habit of advancing
money on them.—(Hear, hear, ),
Mr. H UME said the worthy Alderman knew nothing about
Loud laughter.) He had a coil of the order, and the
Hon Member was altogether wrong —(Cries of " Read,"
from the Tory side of the House.) The first notice on the
2Sth November was to make advances on Bills of Exchange, Ex-
chequer Bills, India:Bonds, and others, at Three-and-a-Half
per Cent. On the 28th of February the same notice was again
given, and repeated on the 30th May, varying the rate of
interest. The notice of the 20th June, which raised the in-
terest to 51/2 per cent., excluded Exchequer Bills. This was
an instance of the way in which their affairs were managed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
seemed to be a discrepancy between the notices; but this was
the effect of the then existing law, and not of any arbitrary lft was open to the House to
de-
cision on the part of the Bank.
discuss whether it was prudent on the part of the Bank to
' raise the rate of interest, but to every gentleman who
considered it prudent, it followed as a necessary consequence
of the bad state of the law respecting usury to be no fault of
the bank. He might take this opportunity of saying in the pre-
sence of the Governor of the Bank that he knew nothing of
the alteration until the very day on which it had taken place.
Sir JOHN RAE REID bore testimony to the correctness
of the remark of the Chancellor of the Excheqner that the Bank
had had no communication with the Right Hon. Gentleman as to
the course to be adopted. With respect to the remark of the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny, the securities to which he had alluded
were excluded in consequence of its being out of their power
legally to pass them. He thanked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer for the course which he had adopted in the introduction
of the Bill, and was satisfied that it would be received with
thanks by the community at large.—( Hear. )
Mr SCHOLERELD said, that one Hon. Member had re-
marked, that no tax could be proposed but some objection
would be made to it. There was one tax which he trusted
would meet with no opposition, and that was a property-tax.—
(Hear, hear.) The way to relieve the poor was for the rich
to take the burden on their own shoulders.---Hear, hear. )
The resolution was then agreed to.
BILLS of EXCHANGE BILL.
Mr. BERNAL brought up the Report of the Committee
on the Bills of Exchange Bill.
Sir R. INGLIS said the House ought not to adopt this Bill
without more discussion than had yet been given to it. The
Bill repealed the Usury Laws in all cases where the contract
was above 101., and he should move that the words be omitted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
tion of the Hon. Baronet would reduce the Bill to the state
ec
said the oh-
j
of uncertainty in which it had been left by the Lewis. He
was in favour of the entire repeal of the Usury Laws, and it
was only on the ground of expediency that he had introduced
the exemption.
Mr. DARBY thought the words
injurious to many interests in the country.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment in the Bill would be very
II
Against it ............................. 92
Majority against the Amendment —Bl

calculation was the greater expedition with which the
letter-carriers would deliver their letters, By the 18th
Report of the Commissioners of Revenue Inquiry, it
appeared that the average time of delivering franked letters
was three seconds per letter, whilst that of delivering un-
paid letters was eighty seconds.—( Hear.) These results
were so striking, that he viewed with alarm any hesitation
on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the
expediency of adopting the plan of pre. payment. An ob.
jection had been urged by Mr. llaculloch that the public
would be subject to great insecurity by means of stamps
paid in advance, but a system of registration was proposed,
which would give greater security than under the present
system. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had rather
prematurely introduced the subject of alarm amongst the
paper manufacturers. But it was premature at present to
discuss the details of the plan. Let the Government
advertise their desire of having plans submitted which
would prevent the dangers of forgery, and let them
adopt the plan best calculated to effect that object,
and no individual would have any right to complain.
They might either assign a pecuniary reward to the in-
dividual who sent in the plan, leaving it to the paper
maker to avail themselves of the plan, or they might give
the manufacturer of the stamps the best plan :—He would
now come to the question of the pledge to be given by
Parliament. He must admit that the Right Honourable
Gentlemen opposite bad argued this question with the most
perfect fairness. As far as he could collect the arguments
they were in favour of Mr. Hill's plan, but the only difficulty
he had was in the way of revenue. When he heard of this
plan of the pledge to be given by Parliament, lie said he
must see the resolution before he assented to it. He
wanted to know when it was that Parliament intended to
make good any contingent deficiency in the revenue?
Hear, hear, hear.) When the plan had under-
gone a fair trial, if there should be a deficiency, he should
be ready to adopt any new tax, but he agreed with the
Honourable Member for Greenock, that the present
plan could not receive a fair trial in twelve months.
He did not want to raise any, but he trusted
that Parliament, when it was called upon to impose
new taxes, would judge whether it was right or
proper to impose them or not. Could any body gainsay
that, if they got a surplus revenue from other sources, they
were to make new taxes for the purpose of keeping up that
pledge. He would take the case of the advertisement duty.
When that was reduced from 3s. 6d. to Is. 6d., of course a
considerable reduction took place in the revenue, but
it had been improving ever since, and in the course
of four years, it had reached upwardsof 75 per cen. of its ori-
ginal amount. Under such circumstances, would it be right in
Parliament to put the public to the icconvenience of having
new taxes put on them until the measure had been fairly tried,'
which he considered could not be done under three years ? He
believed that in that time a revenue equal to the present would
be found to result from the adoption of the new plan. He thought
the Government were entitled to the thanks of the country for
the course they had adopted, and he hoped the public would
properly appreciate what they had done.
Mr. W. ATTWOOD said, if the Right Hon. Gentleman
meant by the resolution that Members were bound to pledge
themselves to accept any tax they might choose to fropose to
muke up the defficiency, he thought he would have some
difficulty on getting Hon. Members on that side of the House
to give him that pledge. With respect to the state-
ments that had been made by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer relative to the finances of the county, he could not
let that part pass by, in which he stated that he anticipated an
improving remedy in the present year. Now, he must ask the
Chancellor of the Exchequer upon what ground he made that
statement. For his own part, he thought it was much more
probable that the revenue in the present year would be less in-
stead of greater than last. Were not commercial affairs full of
doubt and danger? and was not the bullion or the coffers of the
Bank reduced to the lowest possible ebb. What, therefore, was
to be expected but a decrease in the revenue. If there was a
deficiency, was the Chancellor of the Exchequer prepared to
meet the difficulties it would throw the country into. He
trusted, when an opportunity was afforded for discussing the
arrangements necessary to provide for the deficiency that the
House would take the question totally into its consideration.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could as-
sure the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite that he
was most motions to have the proposition for a penny
post discussed in the House fairly.—(Hear, hear.) He would
either take that discussion on the bringing up of the Report on
the resolution, or the second reading of the Bill founded upon
it, whichever way was most convenient to the Right Hon.
Gentleman. Perhaps the Right Hon. Gontleman would have
the goodness to state the course he wofild rather have adopted.
Sir R. PEEL thought that the best course to pursue. would
be to discuss the question on the Report, and take the sense of
the House upon that stage. He was not desirous of offering
any vexatious opposition to the measure.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he would
fix the report on the resolution for Friday, with the under-
standing that the discussion would be taken then. He felt
bound to return his sincere thanks to the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Cambridge, for the manner in
which he had discussed the question. The Honourable Mem-
ber for Tamworth had said that he could not pledge himself to
agree to new taxation, unless he could hope to see in the country
a surplus revenue of 1,500,000, and he had declared his opinion
to be adverse to the measure, unless such a result could be
produced. That was, in his opinion, treating with great
lightness the deliberate pledge of the House of Commons. He
considered, notwithstanding the statements of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Kilkenny, that there was no analogy between the reso-
lution and a pledge given in which the public credit was can-
cerned. If the doctrine that a Parliamentary pledge as to a
matter of revenue was to be treated as a matter of slight im-
portance, he should like to know on what security the public
creditor rested. The pledge that he asked was not a party
pledge—not a pledge to the Government of the day—
not a pledge to their constituents—(Hear, hear)—but a
pledge to the public creditor, that if, by means of any act of
their danger should arise of any deficiency in the revenue, on
which his dividends depended, they would hold themselves in-
dividually and collectively pledged to provide a remedy to meet
that danger. The pledge that he asked was of a different
nature from a pledge on political questions, reference had been
made to what had fallen ft om his Noble Friend the Secretary
at War, in reference to the Reform Bill, every one must know
that political aspects were constantly varying, but by a pledge to
pay the dividend to the public creditors they must abide, as long
as they hope to maintain their faith before the world.

The probable amount of Exchequer Bills required to meet the charge on the Consolidated Fund
July 5, 163,) , Quarter ended i

,P 91,954

FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE

GENi,'RAL DEFENCE FUND.
TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.
AT a MEETING of the CONVENTION
on THURSDAY, July 4, Dr. FLETCHER, Delegate
for Bury, in the Chair, the following resolutions, being part of
a Report from a Select Committee previously appointed, were
unanimously adopted :
' Ist. That we recommend to the public the establishment of
a " General Defence Fund," as well as a Select Committee
and Treasurers for managing such Fund, in order that efficient
legal assistance and support be rendered to such Chartists as
have been or may be prosecuted, and who in the opinions of
that Committee may appear worthy of such assistance and
support.

on a fitting occasion, if the rapidity with which
events are likely to succeed each other will permit
us, boldly state our own opinion of the transaction.
We will now merely say, because authority, law,
and success may be on one side, we do not jump. to
the conclusion that guilt must necessarily be on the
other.

DOWNING-STREET, JULY 3, 1839.
The Queen has been pleased to appoint Somerville William
Harcourt Ramsbottora, Esq. to be Provost Marshal General of
the Island of Grenada.

CROWN-OFFICE, JULY 5, 1839.
Days and Places appointed for holding the Summer Assizes,

1839, viz.-
HOME
CIRCUIT.

The Right Hon. Txt.;;;loanD;:;aiAN, Lord Chief Jus-
tice; the Ri ht H. n. Sir NICHOLAS CoNYNGHANI TINDAL,
Knt., Lord Chief Justice.
Hertfordshire—Thursday, July 11, at Hertford.
Es sex—Monday, July 15, at Chelmsford.
Kent—Monday, July 22, at Maidstone.
Sussex—Monday, July 29, at Lewes.
Surrey—Monday, August 5, at Croydon.
MIDLAND CIRCUIT.
The Right Hon. JAMES Logs ABINGER, Lord Chief Baron;
Mr. Justice LITTLEDALE.
Northamptonshire—Monday, July 8, at Northampton.
Rutlandshire—Friday, July 12, at Oakham.
Lincolnshire—Saturday, July 13, at the Castle of Lincoln.
City of Lincoln—The same day at the City of Lincoln. ,
Nottinghamshire—Thursday, July 13, at Nottingham,
Town of Nottingham—The same day, at the Town of Notting-
ham.
Derbyshire— Saturday, July 20, at Derby.
Leicestershire—Wednesday, July 24, at the Castle of Leicester.
Borough of Leicester—The same day, at the Borough of Lei-
cester.
City of Coventry—Saturday, July 27, at the City of Coventry.
Warwickshire—The someday, at Warwick.
NORFOEK CIRCUIT.
The Right Hon. Sir JOHN VAUGHAN ; the Right Hon. Sir
JOHN BERNARD BOSANQUET.
Buckinghamshire—Monday, July 15, at Buckingham.
Bedfordshire—Thursday, July 18, at Bedford.
Huntingdonshire—Monday, July 22, at Huntingdon.
Cambridgeshire—Wednesday, July 24, at Cambridge.
NorLlk—Monday, July 29, at the Castle of Norwich.
City of Norwich—The same day, at the Guildhall of the said
City of Norwich.
Suffolk—Saturday, August 3, at Ipswich.
OXFORD CIRCUIT.
_ _ _

Crowded as are our columns, we have ample space
for all the news of interest contained in the Paris
Journals of Thursday, and the Madrid Papers of the
27th ult., received this morning. With the exception
of an uninteresting Report of the proceedings before the
Court of Peers, they contain nothing but dull tepiti;
lions of .‘ thrice-told tales." Advires of an old date
from Constantinople and Alexandria, apprising, the
public of possible occurrences in the East. Senor
XIMENES, Spanish Minister of Finance ad interim,
has formally accepted that now (as regards money.
handling) sinecure office.

2d. That the necessary funds be paid in to such Select Corn-
rdttee, and that all persons needing legal assistance and sup-
port communicate to them through their Secretary, in order
that each case may be fairly examined into, and assistance ren-
dered, or refused, according to the respective merits of each.
3d. That Local Committees be appointed in various parts of
the country for the purpose of raising funds, and to co-operate
with the Select Committee to carry out the above object.
4th. That the following delegates form a Select Committee
(pro. tern. ), viz., Messrs. Hartwell Cardu, Hussy, Noir, J.
Taylor, Pitkeithly, Itl'Douall, and Lovett.
L. PITKEITHLEY, Treasurer.
R. HART WELL, Secretary.
All subscriptions or communications to be directed to the Se-
cretary, Mr. Hartwell, at Dr. Johnson's Tavern, Bolt-court,
Fleet •street, London.

OUSE OF COMMONS.
(THIS DAY.)

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Twelve o'Clock.
The House went into Committee on the Factories Bill.
Lord A s 'HAY complained that he had only received copies of
the proposed amendments at ten o'clock this morning.
Mr• F. Mau LE explained.
On clause 18, relating to education, being read, some dim 23-
si n ensued. The clause, as amended by Sir J. Graham, was
ultimately agreed to.
[We will give the conclusion in a Second Edition.l

Mr. Baron ALDERSON ; Mr. Justice Witumsis.
Berkshire-Monday, July 8, at Abingdon.
Oxfordshire-Wednesday, July 10, at Oxford.
Worees.teeshire-Saturday, July 13, at Worcester.
City of Worcester-The same day, at the City of Worcester.
Staffordshire-Thursday, July 18, at Stafford.
Shropshire-Wednesday, July 24, at Shrewsbury.
Herefordshire-Saturday, July 27, at Hereford.
Monmouthshire-Wednesday, July 31, at 'Monmouth.
Gl9ucestershire-Saturday, August 3, at Gloucester.
City of Gloucester-The same day. at the City of Gloucester.
WESTERN CIRCUIT.
Mr. Justice COLERIDGE; the Right Hon. THOMAS ERSKINE.
Southampton-Wednesday, July 10, at the Castle of Winchester.
Wiltshire-Tuesday, July 16, at Devizes.
Dorsetshire-Saturday, July 20, at Dorchester.
Devonshire-Thursday, July 25, at the Castle of Exeter.
City of Exeter-The same day, at the Guildhall of the said
City of Exeter.
Cornwall-Thursday, August 1, at Bodmin.
Somersetshire-Thunday, August 8, at Bridgewater.
City of Bristol-Wednesday, August 14, at the Guildhall of
the said City of Bristol.
NORTHERN CIRCUIT.
Mr. Justice COLTMAN ; Mr. Baron MAU LE.
Yorkshire-Thursday, July 11, at the Castle of York.
City of York--The same day, at the Guildhall of the said City
of York.
Durham-Wednesday, July 24, at Durham.
Northumberland-'aturday, July 27, at the Castle of New-
castle- upon- Tyne.
Town of Newcastle-upon-Tyne-The same day, at the Guild-
hall of Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
Cumberland-Thursday, August 1, at Carlisle.
Westmorland-Tuesday, August 6, at Appleby.
Lancashire-Thursday, August 8, at Lancaster.
Lancashire-Tuesday, August 13, at Liverpool.
CIRCUIT OF THE PRINCIPALITY OF WALES
AND COUNTY PALATINE OF CHESTER.
Mr. Justice PATTESON ; Mr. Baron GURNEY.
Giamorganshire-Tuesday, July 9, at Cardiff.
Carmarthenshire-Saturday, July 13, at Carmarthen.
Borough of Carmarthen-The same day, at the Borough of
Carmanhen.
Pembrokeshire-Monday, July 22, at Haverfordwest.
Town of Haverfordwest-The same day, at the Town of Ha-
verfordwest.
Cardiganshire-Monday, July 29, at Cardigan.
Brecknockshire-Thursday, August 1, at Brecon.
Radnorshire-Tuesday, August 6, at Presteign.
Montgomeryshire-Saturday, July 13, at Welch Pool.
Merionethshire-Tuesday, July 23. at Dolgellv.
Carnarvonshire-Saturday. July '27, at Carnarvon.
Anglesey-Wednesday, July 31, at Beaumaris.
Denbighshire-Saturday, August 3, at Ruthin.
Flintshire-Wednesday, August 7, at Mold.
Cheshire-Saturday, August 10, at the Castle of Chester.

He was sure, if he had introduced this resolution without
providing for this emergency, although he would not have
met with this opposition from the Hon. Gentleman whose
faith was so strong on the penny postage, if he knew any
thing of that House, it would net have been possible to ori-
ginate this Bill without such a pledge—without raising an
outcry, it would be used out of doors to alarm and terrify, and
would create more dangers and difficulty in respect to this mea-
sure than the hostility of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he there-
fore called all those who are favourable to the measurenot to speak
slightingly of the pledge. He had been asked by the Right lion.
Gentleman opposite if there should be a deficiency of the Post-of-
fice revenue, and a large surplus of the other branches, if they
would be called into fulfil the pledge, he would answer, No—
because this measure purported only to do good in respect to
the Post-office, but to be of important service to the general
revenue of the country, in consequence of the increased com-
munication which it would occasion. Suppose the Post-
office should lose 500,0001. a-year, but the other branches
of the revenue should increase one million, the public
faith would not be endangered, and the pledge
would remain in abeyance until such a contingency
should occur the Hon. Gentleman had said that the House was
not pledged by this resolution to any particular tax, and that he
might be beaten upon every tax he might propose, he could not
anticipate such an event, as he thought lie should be dealt with
in good faith; but he believed that if the House of Commons
had pledged itself, although the Chancellor of the Exchequer
might be beaten upon some particular tax, the House of Com-
mons would feel itself bound to see the public faith upheld. He
should not be justified in carrying on this proposition unless he
had such an assurance. Witkregard to what had fallen from the
lion. Member for Kilkenny on the subject of the Bank affairs, he
did not think that he ha acted fairly by the Bank in that dis-
cussion, he thought sueh a discussion inconsiderate arid incau-
tious, and that it ought to be avoided. No much evil might,
but no good could possibly result from such a discussion, and
before bringing forward the question, he wished the Hon.
Member would consult with his friends on the subject, who
would acquaint him with the real facts of the case, and show
him how much he had been misled with regard to the subject.
Mr. GILLON said that the discussion had been directed al-
ternately to the consideration of the affairs of the Post-office, and
to the explanation of the general financial state of the country.
It was very inconvenient that such subjects should be brought
forward at such a late period, anti he agreed with the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny, that it would be advisable to resort to
the old practice of finishing the financial year on sth January,
but at this period of the Session, Hon. Members were paring
off and leaving the affairs of the country to look after them-
selves. It was impossible to give this subject the consideration
it required. He rejoiced to see that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had applied to the principle of the shilling taxation,
and wished he had taken up the subject on a larger scale.
so as to lighten those burdens which press more particularly on
the industrious classes of the community. He was disap-
pointed that the Post-office was the only subject on which a
remission of taxation was to take place. He had hoped that
there would have been a remission of duties which press so
unequally on the internal communication of the country, and
mere particularly so as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had,
at an early period of the Session, given him a specific pledge
that he would remedy this most unequal systern • of.-taxation,
by which Government, without any fault of their' own, had been
reduced from a state of prosperity to poverty, and on the faith
of that pledge he had withdrawn a motion which he had brought
forward on that subject; he had been blamed for this, but all
persons connected with these interests had looked forward with
confident hope that the Session would not pass over without
the Chancellor of the Exchequer introducing some measure to
remedy this evil. He would read an extact from a letter which
he had that day received from the Secretary to the posting-
masters of the West of Scotland, He had not been altogether
unprepared for this, because he had had an interview with the
otherC personshaneellorof
interested
Exchequerrestedin tthe
eon m theatte
matter,
subject,
andhe had understoodin company with
from him that there was no hope of any measure being intro-
duced on H
the subject this Session. e had communicated
the result of this interview to the gentlemen, and he received an
answer this moniing, expressing their regret and disappointment
at this unexpected and extraordinary conduct on the part of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. In this opinion he fully agreed,
and he should not be satisfied until he had taken the decision of
the House on the subject. He should bring it forward on the
motion of going into a Committee of Supply on some fnture
night, and he trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
bring on the discussion at an early hour, so that the opinion of
the House might be fully tested.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated in
reply that when lie gave that pledge the postages question was
not under consideration. He had had the honour of receiving
the Honourable Member and the Deputation on that
subject, and he had told them frankly that having
undertaken the consideration of the Post-office question, he
could not consider any other question at that time. These
Gentlemen express their regret, but so far from being disap-
pointed, they seem to acquiesce with him in opinion. He
thought it necessary to make this explanation in reference to
the personal charges which had been brought against him.—
( Cheers.)
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON thought nothing was more de-
trimental than the shifting of taxation. He thought it would
have better policy in the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have
come boldly forward and proposed the funding to a considerable
amount of r..xchequer Bills. He also witnessed w ith regret that he
had departed from the van of former Chancellors of Exchequer,
and not take care to keep his expenses within his means.
With respect to the Bank of England he entirely concurred with
what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to
the impolicy of bringing forward any discussion on the subject.
If he did bring it forward he hoped he would come prepared
with facts obtained from sources on which dependence could
be placed. The statement hg had oracle was grossly exag-
gerated. The Bank had announced that until the 3d of July
they would make advances at 5 per cent., at that period 5 per
cent. was lower than the market value of money, arid it was ex-
pected that the export trade would be brisk, but this had not
been the case, and foreign exchanges had become a shade lower
—in consequence the Bank, in the proper discharge of
its duty, was entitled to raise the rate of inte-
rest, it consequently raised it to 5% 'per cent. ;

DECLARATIONS OF INSOLVENCY.
THOMAS ROBINSON, tallow chandler, Hungerford-
street, Strand.
THOMAS PAGE and JOHN PAGE, iron founders,
Wickham, Southampton.
BANKRUPTCY SUPERSEDED.
WILLIAM FRANKLAND, coach proprietor, Liverpool.

tagcous for both interests, but that it must be a question of
time. But he (Mr. W.) contended that if taxation was
-too high, the present was the time for making proper 1,
reforms, and the sooner the Tediedy was applied the sooner
we should have a progressive revenue, and the'prospect of
a surplus. The question then was what was the sort of
remedy to be applied. The rate of taxation was from
1.000 to 1,400 per cent., the average cost of a letter being
throe farthings, and the charge Vid. In France the cost
of a letter on the average was the same, but the charge
was 40., being five-fold and a fraction, instead of ten.
He would now allude to the opinion of Mr. Cobden, of
lanehester, a mercantile man of the highest character,
who stated the post-office was a complete failure, as a com-
mercial establshment, as was proved by its being stationary
in the amount of its profits and returns. He might quote a
host of opinions in corroboration of this view, but would
only allude to the opinion of Mr. Jones Lloyd, the value
of which was known by every one.—( Hear, hear.) That
Gentleman stated this to be an unfit subject for any taxa-
tion at all.—( Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, in the course of his speech, that during one particular
quarter there had been an improvement in the Post-office
revenue of 9 per cent. ; but when he considered there was
in the course of several years only an improvement of IA
per 1,000, he would not expect any favourable inferences
to be drawn as to the prospect of any permanent improve-
ment.—( Hear, bear.) He believed that a moderate re.
duction in the Post office charge would be a total loss to the
revenue, and that there would be no chance but by making
such a reduction as would give rise to large and new classes
of correspondence. —( Hear.) The Committee came to
the conclusion that a uniform rate of 2d. was better than
no uniform rate at all. He (Mr. H.) proposed a charge
of Id., but was outvoted, and then of lid., and was kgain
ovouttveootefd, and the rate of 2d: was carried by the casting
that he acocfeade2dd,. breacteauwsoeualldl
the argutmbenCtshawirricahn, weret
e in
equally apply to a Id. rate.—(Hear.) The changes that
were necessary to remedy the evils that now existed were of
two kinds; first, the reduction of the rate; and, secondly,
such measures as were necessary for giving every facility
to the Post-office communications. He had already alluded
to the reduction, and he now
came to the measures neces.
sary for giving the facilities. Amongst the measures to
give these facilities was that of payment in advance ; and
he thought the measure would be found to fail unless pre-
payment should be enforced.-" (Hear.)
One of the argu-
ments in favour of pre-payment was, that if under the pre-
sent system they could not tell to what extent collusion
was carried amongst the deputy-postmasters, it would be
impossible to do so when the number of letters was mul-
tiplied. It WAS quite clear, therefore, that in this view of
the case, to secure the revenue, pre-payment was neces-
sary. Now, as to economy in the collection of the revenue,
Mr. Hill had made a calculation that the cost of the col-
lection of the revenue by means of stamps, would be one-
sixth of the present system. One of the elements of this