The Sun.
London, England, 1806-05-22 00:00:00

NYO R LAWS.

. .
Mr. IVIIITBREADcaIIed the attention .of the
House to the state of the Poor Laws. It hkl• been
proposed to reduce the burthen of the rate; and to,
simplify the-_Laws in existence, Others had pro-.
posed an entire t.lew.systern, witll a vie :v to prevent
the increase of the ,resent burtherts. in ,giving.no-
tice of his intention to bring forward a Motion on
the stibjed, he did not pledge bimself to either; of
these courses; hut if he lived till next year, be would
Submit some, Motion for the, iinproement of the pre-.
sent system:. .

Mr. ROSE stated, that in corieqtienee of some
Resolutions adopted on his. suggestion,' the fullest
information on the subje& of the Poor had-been on
the Table these two years. The:Most materiatpoint
in consideraOn was the empl6yrnent of the Poor.
The ilon.dentleman had not stated, whether he had
any'thil'ig- in view with respect to that.: •
3irr. tra/TIIRE.4D Said, it would: ti 6 the principal
featui=e of Nt). ha te'rer arrangement he-should. propose.
THANKS TO—THE'MANAC;ERS 'THE IM-
PEACHMENT OE LORD'MELVILLE..

GeneraIVVMPATRICk. giNt notice, that hesshOuld
On Friday, as vas usual in such cases,,-; move a Vote
of Thanks to the Managers of the impeachment of
Lord Melville.
• BARRACK DEPARTMVE;I;:-

Lord H. pETTY, before he'' should call the at-
'tentioa. of the House to the subject of which he had
(riven notice, would submit certain MOtions similar
to those brought fprward by an Hon. Gentleman
(Mr.•RonsoN) the other night. One of those Ma-
tions had then been acceded to, but in the total want
of explanation as to the Hon. Gentleman's motives',
the previous question had been' moved, and agreed
to upon the remainder, with a pledge, that the in-
formation -required should be. produced' as soon as
.it should appear that any beneficial etfeec could re-
sult from the produaion. Since that time he had
endeavoured to discover the objeaLwhich the Hon.
Gentleman had, in view, and he believed he had
di.scovered it.—He believed the object was to shun
C.c ab.uses that had taken place, in the hiring of
,i3arns iti the Isle of Wight, .0 here] some of these

buildings had been taken up' at a very extravagant
rate indeed. On this •Cotisideration, he felt it his
ditty 'to bring forward all‘the Motions and to add
'another for a documentlending to explain the matter
Morefulfy, This was the Report of the Conduet of
the Barrack Master who had transmitted the offer
to .build a Barrack at Sandown. The Barrack Mas-
ter had made a false
.repOrt of the Builder, which
was the 'cause why the proposal had 'not been,
accepted. He moved that-there belaid before the
House a Copy ofa Letter, dated 29th of Sept. 1805,
Written from the late 'Barrack Master of Sandown,
in the Isle of Wight, to the late , Secretary at War,
inclosing'proposals of Mr. James Day, of Brayding,
for building a Barracks at _Brayding:
Mr. ROBSONseconded the Motion.—The Noble
Lord's Motions Were transcripts of his. He felt all
the pride of conscious integrity in Seeing them
brought for Ward by the Noble Lord. He thought
the Noble Lord ought to make an apology for hi 4
condu& in; refusing at first information so proper to
be granted, and coming forward with it now, When'
his refusal lyid excited a general outcry.
. Lord H. PETTY thOught no apology was due
from the House,- for the: retinal= of Papers for the
produetion'of which the Hon. Gentleman had not
given any intelligibte.oronitil. Wiietlier the Honour-
able Gentleinan owed any apology- to' the House for
leaving his Motions so unintelligible was not for him -
to say.

After a few words in explanation from Mr. ROB-.
SON, the Letter was- ordered, and also a Copy of the
Proposals .contained therein ; . with a. Copy of the
Answer, if any an Account of •the Barns rented by
Government in the Isle of Wight as Barracks ; and
a Copy of the Report of Major Dayis on .the proposal
of Mr. James Day, to build a Barracks at Brayding..

been stfoniitted. to theM, Wetezat, made tno..vn to
'them at all. Those -Of the Hospital 'Department,
Stores,.and Field Works, in particular, vcre neither
,submitted to the Comptrollers of the Artily for their,
approbation, nor to the Auditors of Accounts for
their examination. No less than 700,0001. had been
issued annually for six years- to-one individual—Mr.
Trotter, who stood in the various relations-of maim-
_ _
faaurer of articles- of public stores, of purveyor of
these stores, of store-keeper, and of Comptroller and
Auditor •of his-own Accounts. Standing in:all.theN •
xclations, he had thought it,proper to malice
.an addi-
tional charge 'of
,10 *per 'cent.* en all. the. articles he.
furnished," in consideration of the
‘extraordinary
tronhle these variens 'occupations iinposed on hint
.for the benefit ot the.public. It was not only this
impOrtant branch of Military expenditure that had
• not been Submitted to the Comptrollers Of theArMy
Accounts ; but also the more important one of Bars
racks; the expenditure for which had heap the first
obje&
.of the attention of the Comenissiong
tary Inquiry,' established
.by -Parliament last year.,--
Abov,e. 9,000,0001. issued for Barracks in the last
War had never been suhmitted to the _Comptrollers
of Army Accounts. Thus,* while the expenditure
on Hospitals 'and.Field Worlcs were never submit...!
ted to* the CoMptrollers.or Auditors; the Opendi-
ture in BariaCks at least may be said to' be brought
to audit by the Commissioners of Military Inquiry ;
but so clogged was that Commission with the mass
.of business before it, that very Etas progress had
yet been made by it in this part of its task. It was
a matter of immediate importance to put A stop to-a*
manner of issuing the Public Money so wholly in-
consistent
,with the, just
.care and attention to the
Security soa*rthicularly called for in the
.present ere
_veal conjuncture. The Commission of Public Ac-
0c nts was defedivefrom the inability of the Cprnp-
trailers of the Armytagive any-attention to its duties,
244dthe inattention of these' Was, perhaps, one reason
. wlhy theother CoMmissioners were less. atteniive.—
Another evil arose from the internal ergareleatiOn of
the office. All the accounts were referred to the in-.
terior.officers,and the*ComMissioners saw nothing of
them till they had undergone the,inspeOion of these
13plow thee. So'that the inestamportant, matters',
su ch as required the most material care of the heads of
the Commission, obtained no more tflan a_pecondary
revision frOni Front the incrti.tled consulnp-
tion of stores-, and -the increased e_xenditure
in every b!'andli of the military department, the
.aCcurnalatien of the Public Accounts became so great
in the. rast war, that some newN3earure was loudlyA
. Called fir..', Several attempts were made to increase
the powers of the Commissioners, and the number of
Clerks was increased at different times to ; but as
110 attention has been paid to the corre&ion of the
defeetive principles of the,estabVshment, no effeCtual
remedy was derived from this. Partial remedies were
applied, ',in proportion to the accumulation, but
without any considerable benefit. The Commission
appointed in 101, tp inquire into the Expenditure
In the West Indies; had brought to light., a great-
deal of useful matter, but was unable to bring up
the. accounts in such •a manner as to diminish the
general press of business. From the impossi-
bility of- bringing up the accounts, so that . they
*taDay, be audited, nothing. was done towards ..the
correction or punishment of the abuses. Last year
a new Commission had been appointed, which had
in a great measure answered all the, purposes pro-
posed ; at the same time it could .not, from its con-
stitution, be so effedual as that which he now •was
about to propose. The Commissioners were -already
toaded with a weight of-accounts. -deeply in arrear.
',et „eel, the mass ot 014 accoulitS was left upon the
Old Commissioners, they were as deeply involved as
ever. The last Pay-office Account that had been au-
dited was of so old a date as 1781. Not-one had been
auditedsince,•The. Navy Accounts also were in arrear:
The Accounts of. Stores, which had been a large De-
partment ever since the American War, was equally
backward so was the. Barrack Account;' the Ac-
counts of Foreign Subsidies, the Accounts of our
Foreign Expeditions, the Ac'eounts:of the Expedition
to Egypt and the Helder,: and all the Accounts of
the present War, were all in the same state. One
object of the Commission of 1785 was to call in the
Accounts of all the insuper Accountants ; by insuper
Accountants was meant, those employed when the
Com Missioners themselves could not ad. But so
clogged were the Com Missioners with the mass of
business -before them, that it was not till 1795 that
they Were able to attend either to these, Accounts
' or those of the Sub-Accountants of the Army; and
even at this moment none of 'the Accounts of the
in,s'uper Accomtants were examined. Even now,
when this* matter was under the consideration of the.
Treasury, and they were called upon merely to state
the•number of Accountants', and the mere heads of
the A.ccounts, three months !mkt elapsed without
their compliance with the requisition. The state of.
the Accounts was at present, 167,090,000-of old Ac-
counts audited and ready-to be passed; 58,000,090,
not. attended to.; twenty-one years Pay .ACcounts,
amounting to 1.50,000,000, not 'yet delivered in ;
80,000,000 olNavy Accounts in thesamestate, mak-
ing a total 4450,000,000,
,a sum beyond the, whole
amount of the 'National:Debt yet unaccounted for.
He should have stated, that-the .07)000,000 under,
examination, and the b 8,000,000 not-yet attended ea,
were, taken from* the Account as it stood Ist Jan.
1805. A further accumulation must have taken place
since, and this served to shew more strongly the ne-
cessity 6f taking wive and decidedmeasures to place
this important busineSS on . a satisfaaory footinge--,
. The-House was not to be told ofthe dangers attend-
he, a delay of .(20 years in the examination of large
Public Accounts, when .the failure on the death of
,the individual concerned may render. the Account
.•
inexplicable, and involve the Public in irretrieVable
losses: It was not to the Government and the Coun*
try alOne that an expeditious audit was important.
It was often equally important to theindividual. For
while the present, state of the Public Accounts was a
veil and a shroud for the concealment of fraud and
iniquity, -it also. hung-like a cloud over the fairlanie
of the honest-and 'upright* Publib Accountant. He.
-would Mention, for example, the case of a Nobleman
of as high acknowledged re&itude as any who had
ever been in a situation of public trust, the late Lord
Ala&trtney, who,- when- GoVernor of Grenada, in:
1785, 'stood charged with 75,0001. This sum, the
'Noble LOrd, he stated ,himself tohave expended for
the. Public Service 'during the American War; but'
notwithstanding the advanced sage -to which he lived,
be had- never_been able to get the account examined or"
the traniadien pertealy clearccrup. This was a state

in which it Wasetrtainly tot deinfal,le that any honest
''Servant of the- Public :E4l6-1:1C1 beeutrered .
Other lsonest and upright Public Acceutitants were:
prevented front alienating theit,estates, becanse.frtan
notabeing.able to pats then, Accounts, the could not
obtain that discharge which was necessary to enable
them to make a conveyance. He came now to the,
means by which it was proposed to remedy the
evils helead•deseribed. And' first, it was proposed
to repeal both the Ads relating to the.Commission-
.ers-of Public Accounts, and then to pass an Ad ap-
pointiog .ten .At ' present there
were three Commissioners Under each of the ACts
in force. It was proposed-to exclude the Comp-
trollers of the Army from the .Corrimission, with a
view to restore them again .to-the.duties confided to
them on the first institution of their ofliae by Lord
Godolphin, 'domprehenditte- every
.part of the
milt-
tart' expenditure, barracks,) stores, hospitals, the.,
Commissariat, Scc.:• They were further -to be the
Confidential advisers of the Lords- of the Treasury
bn every thing touching the Army. Their office
was to be a place of military record for every thing
. connected With the 'expenditure of the Army ; and
the obligation,-to report all abuses- in the Military
department to the Treasury was to be stricaly en-
forced. For.
,the more satisfaCtory performance of
thin -duty he proposed that they should have the
power:Of calling before them, and examining can
oath, such
.persons as they may think necessary.
He
should propose that the Commission for audittng the
Public AccOunts, should consist of persons not Mem-
ersof Parliament. It was intended., for the per-
pose of meeting the different exigencies of the Pub-
lic ACCounts, to divide the ten CoMmissionera into
three Boar& Four Commissioners, with eight In-
spedors attached-to them, were to..be charged with
the examination of all
,Accouots accruing- since the
313 t of Dedeinber last ; another Board of three was
to have the care of bringing up the 137,000,000
now Under consideration, and, a third was to investi-
gate all -.arrears yet unexamined: He hoped, that.
by 'this disuinution, with a power of communicat-
in
together, the different Boards may . be enabled,
with greater ease, to get through the vast mass of
.Acebunts committed to their investigation. It was
further proposed, that every Acconut should be corn,
mitted to one of the Commissioners, who should-
individually bei-esponsible for it. Thus the advan-
tage of individual responsibility would be combined
with the 'facility of business' derived from a Board.
In consequence of. the :suggestion of the -Commis-
..
ssioners of Military Inquiq, t. le Barrack. Accounts
of Oeneral Delancey \CC TC to he brought up , by
two persons specially employ.cd for that purpose, by
which a great relief would be afforded to the Com-
miaaioners. While the.. Public was called upon to
submit to an increase of an expensive establishment'
care should be taken not to let the burthen press
longer than necessity. required. It was 'intended with
this view' to introduce a provision into•the AEI: for
the gradual reduction of the number of Commis-
sioners from ten to six, according as the business was
done. According as the arrears were brought up,.
the vacancies arising in the Cemmissien were to
merge .; and to insure attention ,to this, the Go-
vernment was not- to be at liberty to fill up any
vacancy , without comina. to Parliament, till the.
number should be reduced to six. HewoUld now
state the measures which were proposed for the
more effectually following 'up the great and alarm-
ing abuses that had taken place in the West Indies.
The late Commission was compelled to report to
the Commissioners for auditing the Public AC-
counts. It was noW proposed, to give them much
larger powers. They were to certify the Accounts
to the Treasury when, they had passed, and the
Accptints were then to be • transmitted by the
Treasury, to the Auditors of the Public Accounts, to
be by thean finally passed. There was no species of
fraud that had not been committed in the \Vest- In-
dies; fraudulent contracts, fraudulent supplies,. and
fraudulent Bills of eXchaoge.. The enormity of the
amount may be inferred from this, that 80,0001. had,
been given-in oneinstariee" and 30,0001. in another,
to persons iii high stations as a consideration for the.,
suppression-of frauds that had come to their know -
ledge. The Acconnts were not yet brought up, and
therefore the discovery of these frauds could not yet•
be followed upwittn. the proper measures. He ine
tended topropose a Bill to repeal the present Com-
.mission,and to substitute another with larger poweit
This was all that he should call for this day. -He was
aureinhisconseience.that he was right intbringin this
'whole businessimderthe 3:-iew of Parlianierff,whethee
throe- remedy proposed this day Was adequate .or not.
When the btistne-ss W!ss diStributed 'to- the three.
Boards; the :Board df Treasury would be enabled to
judge Nal year toYear of tis.e progress
,each made,
of, the state in '-which each branch of the Public Aca
counts was, and if any deficiency was still 'found
to come again to Parliament, till this great instru-
ment applying to the main principle ,of the public
expenditure of the Country should be brought to all
-the perfe&ionit was ael desirable to, give to it. It was
proposed to compel every Publid .Accountant to give
in to the Commissioners for auditing the P,ublic Ac-
counts, a statement of the Acceunt, se. far as it,
couldbe-made'otit; whether he was abie, to bring in
the whole or not ;. so that the Acconots of the Go-
Vernmeet may always be. kept. in a cleat-view-, like
those of any individual merchant.' The Auditora
-would be compelled to give a final audit of every
Acedunt within eighteen months,' so that not only
the Public would have tatisfaCtion, but the individual
would, have Justice rendered to-him 'mere speedily.
He concluded with moving for leave to' bring in a
Bill for the More effe6tually inquiring into abuses in
the Millitary Eapenditisre.in the West Indies, and
ebeckingfrauds thereon. . , •
Mr. ROSE did not- mean to oppose . the Motion,
tmthe thought it ..necessary to offer a few observa-
tions. in elucidation of sonic particular points. When
te business of the publicanecounts was so much ac-
cumulated in the American War as to throw the au-
dit greatly in arrear,,Commiasioners were appointed
to exatniue and report what tneasuresshould be taken
to expedite the examluatiOn. That Commission was
entrusted to men of great abilities, who exerted
themselves with becoming diligence ; but. it,did not
appear that any other alteration in' the mode ofaudit-
Mg thee accounts was 'thought necessary,. till the.
administration of his late Right-Hon. Friend (Mr.
Pitt), to whom the credit. of that improvement- was
wholly due. , As soon 'es the money was issued to
the Public Accountants it was from that time set down
against them. There was besides a' power:to call
fur their accounts and voachers, and to examine

both With, st 1.16 iron . Tlie fa L'. .#.a {1
NV stiffireci too
,plucii to devote t; pn tlic;.a.putii2s

but that too was remedied by the Bill of hi; Right
Hon. Vriend. The Comptrollers 'of the Army Ae--
cOnntS had been. alWays in the habit- of ex-amining
all' the issues .to the Army ; it was therefore fit and
proper . to make them parties to, a final. audit, with
the Objeas of which they 'sere in many instance.s.
so particularly conversant, It vas" not' the Noble!
Lord Who had first discovered that the expenditure
for hospital .stores was not sufficiently attended to.
He hirusellhad.mentioued it long. since, and at the
same time that there- was an expense of 11,000,0001.
in the Secretary at War's Account nnexamined-and
uniuquired into. Thus it was not-Mr. Trotter alone
that was in the situation of being his own
ler, but the Secretary at War. . He.was in the hear-
ing-of Gentlemen in w;hose' presence he had. men=
tioned this to hislate Right Hon.F;riend ; _and trades
of it would be found in the. Pay-office.• The Noble.
Lord had stated that,therel.yere 5 0r,600,000,0001.1
of the Public Money not .perfetaly accounted-,f0r...
He did not blame any individual, but the 'fa& was;
that the delay of:the examination of the Regimental'
Accounts by. the Secrotary at War was the cause of
all this. arrear. With 40 Clerks in this department.-
. of the War, Office,' he thought it strange that these
Accounts were not made-up. He would not say
what these Clerks we're attending toi hut he was.
Sure they were not attending to
.that. The Payinas-
ter was placed in a most unpleasant" situation by this
deficiency, being called .upon- to, issue money when
he was not sufficiently warranted, and whose loss'
and- discredit might et en, fall on him. The;
other part of the Lxpen;iii ores, such as the Navy,
Ordnance, and VietuallinL; departments, did not be,..
to the- COmunislo ne..-s for Auditing. Tims them,
the ostentatious statement of .5 or 600,000,000]. in.
arrear was reduced very considerably. The Noble
Lord *proposed an additijnal number of Conuksion-:
ers. -He would be gthd to appoint six-and-twenty if
that would ex'pedite the audit. • -It bad never been
doubted that the Barrack .Accounts • were sobjeCt to
the audit.. When Uen. beltneey had asked him if they.
were, he answered positively yes. Gen. Delancey
pleaded. the King's Warrant ; he answered, that
could-not supersede an Ad!Of Parliament. He had
noubjeftion- to allow fUrthe'r pavers to the Audit Ors.
It the Auditors permitted flits,. ClerksitO make lees,
it was a great:derehaiou of duty., Thaeotnipisision
ofJnquiry into Abuse's in the West.. Indies had' been
issued because it Was impossible these abuses, could
be investigated elsewhere. The Conlmissidners had
made their Report; and- it had been put into the
hands of the then ;legal Advisers of the'CroWn.--
. Every thing that could have been done was done.-
-Whatever merit belonged to.. the. newly-instituted
• measures belono-edexchisively to his late Right Hon:
Friend. Till the Accounts of the SaTeigty. at War
were gone through the Paymazter could not posSibry
bring up his. One halfof 'the arreararose from tht
delay in the:War Office: The Auditors should have
the same powers to call for -and examine these Ac-
counts that they had to call-for and examine ()the*.
The responsibility of the Secretary at War extended
to all the money issued for the service of. the Army
and it is a-most awful
.responsibility in the present
state of the Accounts.
Lord H. PETTY. observed, in
,exPlanation, that
the measure he meant to propose went 'not merely
to the addition. 'of three Corritnissioners, but. to an
-alteration in the principl&of that department of the
-public business.
Mr. YORKE, in reply to one part of the observa--
tions of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr:,-Rose),'declared,
that the delay he complained of 'in the War ()dice'
arose not from,the negligence of the Clerks, but from
their total inability to get through-the..accumulated
accounts which 'pressed upon them. ' • -
I Mr. Secretary WiNnHAN confirmed the state-
r ment- of the Right Honourable Gentleman who O'er-
ceded. him. .

Mr: BATHuisT also. bore.ttstimonyto the aCtivity
of the Cleiits in the Oflice alluded to by thcr-Right
Hon. Gaitletnan.

Mr. ROSE, in explanation, declared that what
he meant to say was merely-the fact, -that, the eNa-
,nlination of ptiblic accounts in that. Office was in ar-:
rears twenty. years.:
Afr. I D UNDAS spoke, in terms of high praise
of the Condti& of the Gentlemen in the 01-Bee alluded
to, Who,-lotwithstanding every:poSiible
,could not prevent the. public business from pitting
upon ihmn.
The SECRETARY at WAR likewise expressed
his convi(lion of the diligence of the'. Gentlemen iii,
lquestion, and observed, that there- was an absolute
necessity to make some regulation which should'
prevent this accumulatioft of the arrears of public
business. .

Lord C.',..4STLERE:IGH thought that the remarks
of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Rose)`had been taken
up in a-manner'which they .did not warrant;
Mr. ROBSON gave his most hearty approbation
to the Noble Lord, -w ho had in such a madly way
w come don to the House to. expose the most atro-•
pious of all corruptions. He trusted that some mea-
sure,vtrptild be a,...lopted, in order'to prevent theihture
from happening rr3airt. He tt-it- the like from,
happening again. For his part, it' were:not-taken.
up by an abrei: hand, he should ou some future day
think it hi.; duty to move, that. there be laid. _on the.
Table. oldie Hvu. 4 alist of those MinisterSl.Under.
Whose inana6Tement these arrears had been suflered
so enormously to accumulate.
The question was then put, and Lord H. Petty
obtained leave to bring in the Bill. •
AI&MY ESTIMATES.

The Order of the Day having been read for, the -
House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply—
the Pe,ation from the Board of Agriculture, the Army.
Estimates,-and the Accounts of Sums issued on votes
of the House_ unprovided for by Parliament, were,
on the Motion of the Sedretary at War, ordered to
be referred to the Committee... •
The House then resolved itself into the Conv-
tnittee,. Mr. ALEXANDER in the Chair.
The SE.C,WARY at wdffobserved, that in the
Estimates which he .shouhl have .the honour of movf-
ing, the. Committee.. would. perceive a considerable
diminution in the..expencei.or the current year from
that of the year 1805 ; or rather perhaps from what
those expenses would have been carried up , to the
present period: While the AdMinistration felt it
their duty to keep up, and even to augment the mi-
litary farce of the-Couutry,, 'They felt it
their duty to provide for thatitorce .6tr as economical
principles as possible. On .thew principle. 'Were the

Estlinatc3 N..l)lch. he h.tici hi his hand.—
It was, scarcely nece,-,sary for him tri remark,. that a

leading principle of -coenouv was to 'endeavour to
-make the cliS.proportion between the number of men
borne on the military estahlishmtmt, and the- effec-

five f;orre of the' Arrnv, as small as possible. (The
IlialA. Hon. ••SeCretary here- awnmenced a con-yin-a-
. •

ti,v'7'e.yiew of the. milfia6-..systotpi ot:thelate and the

,present Administratiol-1, involving a number of
numerical statements 3 . but' which he uttered in

so low' and inclistind, a manner, that with the

most painful. attention , Ave could not do more, than
catch a few scattered fragments ; nor were we. able
with the utmost vigilance to iollow the Right. Hon.
Secretary 'through his subs'equent observations, or
even to communicate to the Public the important in,'

formation of the Various items-.Of the Estimates -fOr
Vvhich lie inovt!cl. It was intended to reduce.the Re-

glments of Cavalry from looolo'kloo men each ; to
decrease 'the expen::e of The Guards (by a reduaiori
of 10 men in eacht'ompany) 18.,0001. and to reduce
the 1.1.0yal Waggon Train, which Would be a saving
of 90,0001. On these three heads. a. saving uvula
accrue of 3150,001. The whole decrease, however,

would attiountte 934,1901 But it would be fair ta
dednEt '47*00(11. on account of the redvaion in the
Estimate of Volunteer Expenses; it would then be
found, that intlie.pr'esent Estimates (compared with
those for 'thelast year) the total reditelioli of ex-
pence would, be 4 0,1921. or near Italia million.
TARLETOAT observed, that. the Right Hon;
Secretary. had stited the' itero. ;on which the 'reduc-
tion of expellee to the amount of 360,0001. would.
take place, but he wised le know how this reduc-
-don was to extend fo the Om or 93409214
, The SECRETARY' at Willi Stated; that on the
Ist of .january, t/306; :the' fetal
forte ofthe.Country was 240,153 men ; that on the
st.of .I'vLy it 50,194,, .so that there had been
an increase in themilitiryforce of 10,041 wentwith
a deereLt4 in-the expense of near half a
The Riht- Hon'. Secretary proceeded to state his ESti-
'mates for guards acid garrisons, and for the recruit
nig on the. British and Irish establishments, in all
which we could'pnlydistinJtl'.7 hear that a consider-
able reauAionin expellee was to take place. ' The
-Staff of the Arniv was estimated at 54,5731. less than
fOr'lBos ; bOt the arrears- would -reduCe die saving
on this bead' to 20,g001. j Considerable reduaion

would take place with regard to the Militia and
Fencibles. As to the Volunteer Establishment, in—

stead Of zaiyintentiOti ordisbaft,lingthein, which hid
been.imputed to I:Us-Majesty's Ministers, an exPreSs,
and large' provisi)ri Nvocdd be proposed for; them.
The only material change • would experience,
would be in taking from their Othceis the pciiver
commanding as Regular Fied•ollicers; a measurt
which he was 'Sure must be generally Wisfatlyrf. '-
The *dances' Co Volunteeiililad been ;1100,0001.;
he.no;.,v meant to p.ropoe, fhat try -abolishing th
June aildwiancei, that It'ShOeld be sreduCC.d to
1,0 2,0001. -and there wotild—tre- -thus,. a s4viug -of
572,0001., By doing away the present mode-of
spe6tion,
.and confining the future to that
Major7Generals, a saving of above 190,0001. would
accrue. There would be
,a•saving of 230,0001. to
the Clothing of time Volimteers, and another con-,
siderable saving s.voUld accrue froni the redu&ion of
the Drill Serjeants to two thirds of: their present
allowance. By • the abolition of permanent duty
278,0001.. would be also saved, and theae SaV.:
ings, together with Others, would make- the I.VliOle`
decrease of expence in the Van/lieu Establish=-
ment such: as he had before stated it... The...l.l.lght
Hon. Secretary concluded by moving his first Reso-
lution—Mit it was expedient to grant'a
t'number,
not exceeding t 50,559 effeclive men for he service.
of His Majesty in Great Britain, from 25th of;
June :to
.25th of December next.

General TARLETON commented upon several
parts .of the statement of the Right. Hon. SeCretary..
It was intended, it seemed, very much to reduce th 6
cavalry. This measure he highly disapproV&l of;
The late Government had added two troops to each
regiment of cavalry, and in so doing he thought they
had aided most wisely. British cavalry enjoyed a
high and deserved reputatiOn. • They would be tounl
most useful either ip defence of our own; country in
case of invasion, or in any foreion expedition thaE
inighE be determined upon; and he .therefore cha-
raEtertsed their reduaton as a very extract Binary pro-
ceeding. The mode by which the Right Hon. Svcre-
&try had calOulacte'd the eXpenee of the Airily, .if the
.late Ministers, had continued, was unfair. With re,
gard ti) the diininution of the waggon train, the pro-
priety
ofthis was, under any circumstances, goes-
tiodable ; and until the establishment of 'some large'
central depot, he thought such a diminution highly'
inexpedient. Above four months had elapsed since
the' 21st of Jan. • when the Right Hon. Gentleman?
opposite (Mr. 'Windham) had come down to the
House, and declared, that such was the darigerous
situation of the Country, that four days ought not to
be allowed to pass without the interposition of some
effeaive measure, tending to increase our military
strength, and to putour'Regular Army on a better;
footing. What had the present Ministers done after
this declaration ? They' had lived • like drones, on
the colleaed stores of • their oredecessot's.- To the
able arrangements of the late Administration the
Country . o wed every . advantage, that it. had derived
' 'since the. present Administration came into power.
To tbat•A.dministration vas to be attributed•the gio-,
rious ViEtory of St. 'ljoiningo-:-To that Admini-
stration was to be ettriblited the Capture of the
-Cape, of Good Hope. And here he would ob-
serve, that notwithstanding the brave and suc-
cessful -exertions ,of the -Oriicers who command-
ed in that Expedition, notwithstanding they had
effeeted 'a landing in the face of a superior force,
and had' beaten that force, yet the Thanks of
the House had not been voted to them, sim-
ply, he Was convinced, becaose the plan on which
they had aEled originated with the late Administra-
tion. The present Board of Admiralty bad not
chosen to reward Sir H. Popham. for his services on
that occasion, because' that gallant_Pdieer was not
a favourite with certain persons out of the House.—
. To the measures adopted by • the late Mininistra;-
tiou *as likewise to be attributed the recent capes
tare of the Marengo and the Belle Poole.
fag, although he trusted that the Country
yet derive some advantage lion) the exertions of his
Majesty's pre,ent Government, nothing was
more certain than that hitherto nOthing•had resulted
from thorn. He .had been accused ot e;tertaink4
onreasonkle expedationS. Those '-:X.pCCiatiollS weie
grounded on the speeches of the itigot_ LLD.
'tart' for the War .I)epartmeot, whoa he v..as on 1.110

I

Opposition Side of the I-Totte s' speeches Which eatus
rally induced the Country to look for a new military
era as soon as that Right Hen. Gentleman came
into power, to expect from him another harvest of
dmus. Four months, however, had elapsed since
that event, and nothing had 'been,-done ! •It was
above two months since the Right Hon. Gentleman
made his long military speech in the House ; what
had ensued ? Let any one candidly examine' the con-
auCt of the present Ministry in military affairs, and
he would find no great cause of satisfaCtion or confi-
-aence. In the first place; on the Motion of a Noble
'Lord, a very unconstitutional grant 'of I'B millions
and a half had been voted forthe Army in that House
before thedistinct appropriation which was intended
to be made of that sum had been explained. Then
the ArMy Estimates were brought forward for two
months, and then they were brought, forward for ene-
ther Month. The Mutiny Bill too was first passed for
two 'months, and again passed for one month. All
these acts Were no 'Very striking indications of the
t gents and foresight of His Majesty's present-Mini-
sters. All that the Right ,Honourable_ Gentleman
had done was to destrorthe Additional Defence Act,
and by so dolne :he had " thrown awayst pearl richer
.than all his tribe." 'He would not touch at present
upon the gigantic subje& of
:the Regular Army, but
would Merely. make a' few observations on the Volun-
teer System. Tice Right Hon. Secretary, at War had
eoniPlained, that great misrepresentation had- taken
place of what his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for
the War Department, had said of his intenticnj with
regard to the Volunteers. He did not .know where
this misrepresentation originated.
,The Gentlemen
tvho reported the proceedings of .the House fer the
newspapers were geteraliy better inclined asa. .a
new Administration than to a new Opposition, and
were much more likely to give the speech of the
Right Hon. Secretary with correctness than the
speeches of the Gentlemen who sat on the sane
• bench as himself, and he believed that the sentithents
and observations of the Right Boa. Gentleman had
been very fairly stated to the Public. He could not
but notice that a considerable change had taken place.
in the tone of that Right Han. Gentle Man since he
attended the great Civic Feast at Guildhall, when
the Toast of " The Volunteers of England" was
given, proving the truth of the old saying, " liz nine
*erilas." commented'with great severity on the,
speech which the Right Hon.Geei. had made hi sup-
port of the Bill for the repeal of the Additional Farce
.At. That speech contained infinite wit, humour,
and vivacity, and froth any indiffere4 ,Member
would have been very proper, • and Very enter-
taining ; but coming on such an iMportant subject
• from the Secretary of State for the War Department,
he could not but consider the levity with which it.
abounded as' in the highest degree indecorous. With
regard to the proposed abolition of the General In..
seeding Officers, for the purpose of substituting the
Lords Lieutenants of Counties, he considered, such a
etnnige as Very injudicious ; and 'on this subject he
was sure that lie might Safely appeal to the opinion
of all who had any connexion with Volunteer Corps.
Emtilatlon was excited in the. present mode, which
would, by thepropoSed plan, become dirninislied; -if
not 'extind. Nor was he a greater friend to' the propos-
ed abandonment ofpermanent dtity As an Officer, he
declared that he thoUght permanent duty most es-
sential to the Volunteer system. He illustrated this
eilsinion. by an instance in the Distri& which.lie had
the honour to command: Five thousand Volunteers
were collet-led in Bristol on permanent duty for lll-
ten days. When they first assembled their awk-
aisardness Was striking-, but at the expiration of the
fifteen-days, he should not have hesitated to go into
salon with them if required.. To
.destroy, there=
fore, the system of permanent duty, was a most ex-
traordinary and a most precipitate ad. By the re-
teres on -the Table if appeared, that there were
in England •00,600 effeCtive Volunteers, 100,000
of whom had been returned as .fit- to act with
the Line. They had cost, in four years only,
.3,400,060 h Brit taking it- at the statement of
the Gentleman opposite, that in three years they had
cost 5,660,0001. he woald ask how such Troops
Could be obtained elsewhere at so small an expence ?
lie would abstain at present from entering on 'any
other part of 'the seitenielits of the Right Hon. Se-
cretary at War ; they might be better understood at
future period, as ,he intended to move, that the
Army Estimates should be printed'. All •that had
been done' by the preSent AdMinistration was to de-
stroy. Most men, when they intended to build a
new house, provided materials before they pulled
down their old one, but the conduct of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite Was the reverse. Usti-
11-lately, however, he was convinced that the Right
lion. Gentleman would find the necessity of de-'
scending from the flights of metaphysics to the
plain _methods of his predecesSors..
Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that the. Hon. Ge-
neral had talked of every, thing but the Army Esti-;
mates. • He had even introdnced naval subjeets, and
had gone out, of his way to east a particular. blaine on
bis Noble Friend at the head of the Admiralty, and a
general blame on the whole ()fills Majesty's Mini-
sters, whom he had chosen to term drones. He would
ask whether the Noble Lord (Lord H.-'Petty),- from
whom the Housa.had just -heard such display of
talents, had shewn himself-a drone ? Was his Right
Hon. Friend near hitu (Mr. Fox) a drone.? Was
the Right Hon. Secretary of State for tlie'War de-
partment a drone, because, duly -considerina'' the
magnitude and importance of the subje6, he had not
proceeded so rapidly with his military plans as the
impatience of the Hot). General prompted him to ex-
Ped ? Adverting to -the Hon. General's supposition,
!hat his Right Hon. Friend's tone With regard to the
Volunteers had been considerably lowered, since his •
Visit to the City; he.declared, that he should think.
Lina very unworthy the situation which lie held in
His Majesty's Councils, if he allowed a toast given by
a worthy Alderman to bias his determination on the
great Military System which he had in contempla-
tiQn• But did he so ? Was his tone altered ? On
the contrary, all the statements made to-night b
this Right Hon. Secretary at War, of the cessation of
the June allowances, of the reduetion of the ex-
Penees of Drill Serjeants, and. of the abolition of
piertnanent duty, were so many strong proofs that
(Jo tone of his Right Hon. Friend remained un-'
changed. With regard to the • obserations made
bY the Hon. General on this last.pron. , 'on—names,
1,3:, fa tit
of permanent . g,cat as was
in the military skilref that Hon. General,
h; could easily suppose that .his Right. Hon: Friend
IE4 consulted Officers who .Screie.:as cOmpetent.to
decide on questions of this' nature. 'The fad Was,
-P6

that several Voluntet Corps .which had neVer seen
on permanent duty.had been returned by the In-
speding Field Officers as fit to aft with the Ling,
which evinced that permanent, duty was not in-
dispensible to -the attainment of discipline. The
Hon. General had- misunderstood one part of the
Right Hon. Secretary's-statemdnt : he had not said
that Lords Lieutenants were to` be substituted for
the present Inspeeting Field Officers' of VOlunteers7--
but he had expressly said, that three Major-Generals
were to be appointed to' that service ; and thus a
great part of the useless machinery attached to the
inspection -of the Volunteers Would be got rid of:
He repeated his former sentiments on the rank of
Volunteer'Officers ; and declared, that in his opi-
nion no- -rational man who now cominanded-a
Vo-
lunteer Corps, but must be rejoiced at being re..
lieved from the responsibility-which his having a
command over Regular Officers above the rank of
Captain had hitherto imposed
.on him. To the
printing of the, Army Estimates he had no objec-
tion whatever.

Lord :CASTLEREAGH perfectly agreed with
his Hon. Friend,' that the House was at present
placed in a very peculiar situation, as well in its own
view, as in that of the. Country and of Europe, af-
ter all that had already taken, 'place. When His
Majesty's present Ministers had come into-Office,
it, was the general impression in the Country, that
some fundamental .change would be immediately
made in 'the military system of the Country ; and
he left the House , to judge how far such a funda-
mental change was consistent with the efficient state
of the Army, as represented in the statements- of
the Secretary
,at. War.. ,So full, however, had the.
House and the Country been of the expeaaiion- that'
some such fundamental change was to be brought
forward, that he and his friends had suggested, with
a view to afford the Right Hon. Centlenian an op-•
portunity of maturing the measure, the expediency
of passing a Mutinyßill for two months.- The sug-
gestion had been acted upon ; and he begged the
House now .to recollea in what a situation it was
placed. These were the fourth Military Estimates
which had been voted this ,year ; and in order. to
give effe& to these Estimates, a fourth Mutiny Bill
was to be passed. He asked whether any Govern-.
meet bad ever exhibited such an evraordinary, in-
stance of inefficiency ? One might have expeaed
that these fourth Estimates
_should contain some
new niatter-sothe indication of the measures
which the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to, produce.
Yet strange as it *as, and must appear to every Gen-
tleman in the House, the Estimates now proposed
to be voted differed in nothing from those that
had bech voted in March, except In the amount
of saving from the reduction of the Cavalry.--
He agree% with his Hon. Friend (General Tarleton)
that it was desirable to' keep the Cavalry on a re-
spedablefodting, but from the difficulty that had
been felt in maintaining that body on thefull esta-
blithment, he asserted' that it was the intention of
the late Government to redyce them, according to
the Plan now proposed, to eight hundred rank and
file in each regiment, After all the parade, or ra-
ther farce, of such frequent delays in the production
of the promised measures, the present proceeding
_would have the elle& of shewingto Europe that there
er.)sted an extreme jealousy between the Parliament
and the Government, when such short Munity Bills
were passed. The present measure was not calcu-
lated to - give the ParliaMent or the. Cciuutry any
idea of what;the- prindiples- or prominent feattires
of the proposed measures were. And here he begged'
to ask the Secretary at War for information respell-
ing the
.subjea of the .Volunteers, with regard to
Whom. considerable apprehensions had been excited
by the Speech of the Right HonourableGentlernari,
and 'notwithstanding the effiarts that had since been
Made to explain away the impression produced on
the Public by that speech, the statements made that
night were not calculated to remove them. But on
this .subjea he should take another opportunity of
speaking mere at largei: and in consenting to vote
the Estimates in this instance, he begged not to vote
them otherwise than as matter of account, and not
to. preclude himself from reverting to the subjea
on a future occasion... The economy under the
head of Volunteer Expenditure, he considered
as a- Contemptible consideration. The objets of
the Right Hon:int-11We 'Gentleman seemed to. be,.
to break dOwn that' respeaable Body, and to get
rid of them -as lin effeCtive 'part of the Mili-
tary Defence of the Country. When the Right
Hon. Gentlemen in the present instertee,' affirmefl
that they bad no designs upon-the Volunteer System,
but rather wished to support it,' they Ivere drily de-
fending themselves against the feelings-of, the Pub-
lic. But,.asthe Right. Hon. Gentletnan had Mai;
niat.Q.d to the Hotse, on the-day when the Noble
Lard near him (Lord.Howick) had bronght forward
his Propositions for an increase of pay to the' Navy,
from the Admiral down to the-Seaman, his inten-
tion to advise Majesty,to recommend it'similar
augmentation of pay to -the Army, some estimate
of the amount of. such augmentation. ought to have
been submitted to the House, and, if any substan-
tive .obji,st, beyond the unnecessary parade of such
intirnation, was intended,- the Noble Lord would
have to provide forit
.by,.a Supplemental Budget. If
this were to have been matter of separateeonsider-'
ation, the Estimates now proposed, might as,well
have been submitted to a final decision in March.
last. The expence of the projected training, «Bich
he looked upon as the most buithensome part of
the Plan, ought to have been included in the ,Esti-
mates. Was the House ever to be informed' of the
mode of proceeding of the Right Hon. Gentleman?
On the Irst day of the Session, at a critical period,
the consideration of an important question could
not be deferred beyond the day-fixed ;. and yet four
months'had now elapsed since the Gentlemen had
come into office, and the'only thing they had done;
the only symptom of life that had appeared, during
their Ministerial existence, was to bring 'forward the
Repeal of the Additional Force Acid, by a Billeen-
taining that detestable Clause relative to the re-pay-
ment of the Penalties. The Irish Chancellor 'of the
Exchequer had also brought in a Bill fOr_allowing
the Irish Militia to volunteer their-services to this
Country ,; and as That .was a measure which he had
himself supported, the Hon. Baronet had his thanks
for it; though from any thing the Hon. Gentleman
had said on the subje& forrnerly, it did not appear
to hare.met his approbation:. If Government could
Make up their minds on the subjea, -and he thoeght
they..were at present travelling between the diffical-
tes of she Country, and the •projeas into which
they..had rashly precipitated themselves, he implor,

T‘Tinisters, .and particularly the Fight Hon: Gen-
, demon (Mr. Windhatu);.to inform ti- House what
proceeding he meant to adopt, and not
.tel -bring
forward the meaaures one after' another, Whereby_
the attention of the, House might be exhausted.=,.
He asked of His Majesty's Ministers alSO:to Sate,
when they meant to. bring their measures- forward,
and to allow sufficient-titre between their.introduc-;
tion and the final decision. He .wished. them to giVe
the House time to consider 7a 'subject which had
taken them two months • to make up their , minds
upon, after the disgrace and ignoring Of corning so
Qften with Estimates to Parliament. • He -did not'
think it fair for Ministers to take -credit for economy
at the expenceaif the late Government. The re-
,duelion in the, cavalry they.would Shave carried into
effed but:the reduction of .the Waggon-Train- he
disclaimed. The statements were tbmided on a false' -principle :
of economy. • 'He ..called.'Orv: the Right
Hon. Gentleman to state,ln Parliainentary
shape*hemearitto bring forward-his Plan fOrlitnited;
systemervice, which was to alter the' whole Syste of the
rmy, whether in a separate Ata,-or hilhe Mutiny',
; and if in the latter shape, he trusted he would
bring it forward in a manly manner in - the face of
the Bill,.and not attempt tO introduce it skulking-
. into the 1311) at. a late, stage ' of its• progress. .He
Could not-see, what Ministers had done-since they ,
had been in otfice, except explain away theiriipres-•
sion produced by the ipeech, of the Right 'HOU.'
Gentleman. , ,:.•••
•
Mr. .Secretary WI ND ILIM did not mean Co
follow the Noble- Lord in the speech lie had anade.2.
One of the topics insisted on 'by the Noble Lord was;
the:frequent renewal-of-the ',Mutiny Bill,-,und the;
effect this would have'upon Foreigners, which could
only be an iMpression that it was oftener .renewed-
j
than usual, or ifthey-shenld be acquainted with ,the
forms of the Constitution of this Country, that the_
platis of the Government were not sufficiently Ma-
tured for a final' Mutiny Bill. 'lt was rather whim-
•sical of the' Nbble Lord to take credit ,to him-
self and his friends for their intended economy 7
in the redutaion of the Cavalry, .and to approve-
of the opinion'of the Honourable General-...-4hat the
Establishment of the Cavalry ought to 'he kept -up.
The at-gument would not answerboth Ways: "-The'
door must be either shut or- open. , The next topic
the Noble Lord had touched upon related, to the-Vo-
lunteers, which;lioweVer, he deferred a more enlargdd
coosideration of to 'a future , opportunity: The
Noble Lord had talked'of the ciexterity and -.a&
dress, that had been used to "lower the tOne :that
bad been used by him 'on this sithjea On- a' formeroccasion, ' For' his • part he, had not' lowered • his
tone, , not' having spoken upon the subjed but -
once, and then only with a view to set •Learned
Gentleman right as to what he conceived a misrepre=
seutation of his•sentiments. Neither had. his,Right.
Hon. Friend (Mr. Fox) lowered his tope; fordre'
had declared his coincidence in every sentiment ex.:*
pressed by-him, The, Noble Lord should have an, •
plied the terms of address and dexterity to thernis-
representations that had "Nen industriously, circu-7
lated. He wished the Hon. Gentleman would, once
for all, prefer the indictment : he could then either
deny or:avow the Charge, explain or insist upon it, -
justify it or make an apology,: his measure was:no
measure. at all; for six-sevenths of the Volunteers
it would leave ;hem' exa4ly where, they are, except
as to expense. • • It.had been said' that this measure
was to deprive the Volunteers of their Adjutants of
the Serjeauts Major, and 'of the.. Drill Serjeants ;-
but no•sitch thing Was intended. A saving of 50,0001.
was proposed on the Drill Serjeantsj
ever, would leave them seven shillin&ks per day. for,
every day of ti duty. He alid not wish to aug-
ment the duty of-the Volunteers, though it would
add to their efficiency at an increase ofexpence..--
It had been said that ,the 'duty . ought to be in-.
creased; • and he knew it had been said to be his
intention, from enmity to' the' syStem, to get-rid
of it by harassing the Volunteers with increased i.
duties ; but that was -no part of his ohjea",.
As ,to the question of the Noble Lord; what proceed!.
ings he meant to 'adopt; he should-answer, that as
to the recruiting for limited serviee, which he. eonsi-
deied the most important-point that was to. beaStri,
vided for in the-Mutiny Bill;* he wished as. small a
',arta. the System as wtf's consistent with security to
the party to be provided for by Parliamentary regu-
lation, and to leave it open to future GoVernments to
alter or amend the System.- Coupled with this pro-
vision in the Mutiny Bill be proposed .a permanent
Bill for securing -to the individuals inlisted the rrovi-
'sion, at the expiration of their term,.ofthe increased
allowance from Chelsea ; as to what the Noble Lord
bad said,' of the manlinas's of bringing the Clause
forward iii the face of the had only, to say;.:-
that :the Clause viould .most properly be introduced
in the Committee, wherC Would• undergo a more:
liberal discussion. With aNata to the, .Training,.
he :proposed„. though he would notbe_Oedged to: it,
to bring in !the..Bill for that purpose ;Mere the
eess, with a view to hale it printed,* in order to its-
hei'ug considered by Gentlemen, and by the -Com,
try, during.the Holidays. 'Another- measure he _was
to, bring for Ward respeded the Militia, on which he
had, also been misrepresented, for he pupped only
to extend-for a time the suspension Aifaliii-Ballot at
-present ekisthig; An Aa .might also be necessary to'
alter ktne_of the provisions of the-Volunteer Laws. !
This was all he felt it necessary to say in answer to
the Noble Lord. • .
Mr. PEROI.II:Th contended, that he bad notmiAl- 1
represented the-Right Hon.. Gentleman, whose sub-
sequent explanations had, however, materially*soft-
ened the sentiments he • had Originally expressed.
He insisted that the 'Right Hon. Gentleman. had-de,
dared hiribelf an enemy to the ballot, insomuch,
chat when lie fluent himself under a necessity of
resorting to it, to enforce *his training system, to
avoid the odious Word, he had preferred to use the
word " lot," l'e`Ning out the syllable, pal." When
it was recollected that. the Right Hon. Gentleman had *-
compared-the Volunteers to painted cherries, which.
Ilene. but simple birds would take far real fruit, aiLd_
that lie had compared those who had eneourzgedltie
Volunteers-to children planting sticks and then sup—
posing they had planted trees., it would not be deem- *,
ed uncharitable in them' to conclude that he was, not.;
friendly to the Volunteers. The Right Hon. Gentle-.
Map had, said lie had used the word " relax," for
remit," with respeato thediScipline of the Vo-
lunteers, hut it mattered not whielye used, as either-
would.be ruinous to the Sytein. It would he an in-
jury te•the flight Hon. Gentleman to suppose
_,that
he had ;ben misreprese 11 red tviili respect to the
Volunteers, blea,ase, if his object were to destroy,

their in4titutioa, hiss measur6s Nve:e rationd.l,
if he y.a.i ,Inchnedto encourage and ',ll
his measure: were irrational, they being cL,;cutaed t,,
producet_heir destsruction. • •

. .
•• Mr. Secreta.y.FOX rose just to say a" feW
!! On what had fallen from 0-lea-ay/led Gentleman
had just sat down. It was.not: neceSsirY to review
what had taken place in a
-former debate- I"..2Spedieg ,
the Misrepresentation'of :he Si.sntiments of his Rig-lit
i 'Honourable Friend. There' was'no- great gramnia-
tical difference,• he admitted,- between "
" re'mi't," but they might be used St) -as to have a
far different import. It was.. rather extraiirdinaiy
• that the use of the Wol-d•-" relax," .by his Right
Honourable Friend) should still be adverted to espe-
'cially: as on the, very day when he had so expressed
•liiinself, he had explained what-he intended to say.,
It:reminded him of an old saving; "'that there was
Sometimes no better way ofuttering a falsehoodtban
in the words of truth." 'ln the long parliinnentary
experie;ice he had had; he had never known any
'speech so. misrepresented, a;:(1- indUstrionsly cir-
culated, as thatl of his Right. Hon. Friend. The
misrepresent ition had been eirchlated Over the, whole
Country. 'He bad 'had eorreSpOntletice on the sub-
jedt from' varieus quarters: ArtiOngSt others, he. had
a Tener: from a respeetable Gentleman-whiCh wonid
throw some light on ,theque4tion. • The Letter
VOrted,to Mr. Secretary:Windbain'S Plan, and a sup-
posed prevalent opinion Ahat tl.)c,i-Vo!'euiteert wereef
'no use whatever, ,Which The' ,writer denied, asserts
`big, that only three things were klianting to :make
'them a valuable, 4!erviceabie, and efficient force—to
take- away -permanent duty; the. June. allowances,
and the ISpeahig•Tiekt QdicerS,, . This would then
show theopinion-Of the Coiintry,On the subject. Bet:
it-bacrbeed said that -His,Matesty.'s Ministers were
of opinion that the VolUnteers-coull never be mad4e.._
an-Army. Well; and so they were. It 'was the
system, not the men that-prevented it: Ilan Army
-could be made .withoutthediiciiiline.enforced by the
:Mutiny Bill, then • had the 'Governmentand
argent of this:Country been guilty:of t he:greatest
pence and ertielty. But he 'Wits-so unfortnn:te as not
to think that an Ariny could be: formed w;itiloot -tf)e.
peculiar descipline enforced by a-aitioy Bill. He
;'thought thiS a good time for going Into the general
question, but should follow the -example" of those
who had-preceded him. It !matt, frequently been ail:-
ed whether they Meant to reduce or diminish the •
-Volunteers? -He answered, N. Whether -to dis-
courage'. or decline their services ? No, But it was
'not thought desirable to, have these services at the -
present extravagant expellee they, cost,: If the- Vo •
lunteers thought they. could serve. ,their. Country
consistently with the Plan of his Honotirable-Frienci,
he wished them to 'remain,; if they could-not, Why
then they might serve it in some othcl way, and di .
less expence. He was sorry for the delay that, had
9ecurrQd,,because it had ficilltated thecirculation or
the misrepraentationSV his aightlion;Friend; and
the publication. of his me.a•Sures. \would have-been the
.best refutation of them: TO search for the plats in •
• the speech of the Noble Lortf, was like, the
vulgar saying expressed,f! seek for a needle in a bun-
die of hay." He conearred.'entirely in the senti-
ments 4f, his Right Hon. -Friend;-atid if. he was: not
so near him, lie should state that to .he his °pi,-
Mon of. him, Which had • been imparted to him as
his own; as he thought hiM the -fittest nixie in the
Empire for the office, beheld. WithrespeCt -An the pro-
posed-those, as the INlutiny Bill WOtild be brought nr
to-morrow, it might be read a second time 911 L riday,
.and discussed Wednesd'ay or Friday after the 'recess..
The clauseMight_ be discussed in the Committee.
As to the animadversions of the Noble Lord‘respeia-
ing.the delays that had taken place,..:the was callous
to them. He thought it much. better that new mea-
sures; With a, view to ititure rather than to any im-
mediate objets; should be maturely: considered.
. And he was sure, that It Would be a "happy.day fOr
the-country. When'theTy should pass, and that every
Gentleman would agree with.him,.. who wished tile
eßritish Army to be placed ona footing suited to the
.magnitude and siniatiOn of the Empire. If the pre,
sent Administration did nothing else but carry these
.measures into effeet„ tiley would do an important
and grateful service to the Coiantry:
CANNOT G rebutted the:imputation- m is 7
representation, by stating thatkis friends bad been
grossly misrepresented. As to his panegyric pro-
hounce,d - oti ' the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Wind-
ham), -he 'had never heard any- thing of .the kind,
except . on, a 'Member, not then in his'place ,(Mr.
Franeis)., Who had beenstated to be the bestoualified
to govern India, and yet that Gentleman had not
been. employed. He hoped the Measures, when
brought forward, would-,not be precipitated. , If any
Government wished to precipitate their measures
they would precisely follow time course that had been
purstied.in this instance;' first, by tiring the patience
of Gentlemen by delays, and afterwards by hur-
rying the. bnsiness,forward, . He thought the Wed-
nesday after the recess too early a titty.for. the dis 7
cussion of the clause; as. many Gentlemen hadd-gone
- out of toWn for the holidays; .iider,-.animpression
that-the hUsiness would not be,,,broutl,htiorward SO
aarly; nay, even .under a.supposiiion that.theimea-,'
sores would not-be brought forward-at • all: • Fie
thoughts the :Monday after the reeess'the'earliest day
the busine;sccild be fixed for; and. tigges.(c.-d
propriety of a call Of the House fbt that day:
1i r. FOX,would not consent tb delay thebusines's
till _Nlon.lay,'nor would he atteralit to dissuade .the.
Right lion. Gentleman (Mr: Canningy from
.dis-
Oussilig it in ony-Way.the might think- most proper
but for his part, .he should not toliow the example
thlt light Hon. Gentleman seenie4 disposo to hold
A'Srlien the-question oflimitedService was before
446.:F10ite, it might suit that Hon. Gehtljrnan ft en.
ter upon the consideration of the levy; en mas.qeibut
.suell -desultory discussion lie shbuld. not .ht hour him
in; for one of these measures .did fait depend.upon
the other,and therefore should not be considered. is
necessarily connected,- He repeated,- he eoujd.iec
_ no-necessity for-deferring the discussion of the :mein
• points beyond Wednesday next.
Mr. YORKE was anxious that more time should
be granted; for he was not-aware what clauses might
be ,proposed in the
,Mutiny Bill, or what was the
uitiniate decision of the Right Hon. Gentlehari re-.
spetting the leading features of his Plan. -WlStt Was
the, term and limit of service that was to
to men when. enlisting? Were the.o6 Were
the'pb-wers &claiming their discharge in irate of
wai? • 'Was it equally to affea the cavalry and az-.
-tillery. with, the rest_ of the. Army? Was it to e.x.-
tenid to the Army now existing 'Surely-these were
important and. complicated questions, to the clista4-

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