The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

with what grace they came to that !louse and admitted their
Roman Catholic fellow-citizens to enter the two services, after

.hey had declared by their votes in'that House and elsewhere
:heir firm decision and their determination to keep them out.

And they were kept out till justice and good policy overcame
all obstacles. He therefore asked what advantage there was

in delay, and why their Lordships connected t7.vo measures
which were entirely distinct ? He was certain that if the
Legislature passed the measure without any conditions it
would be more satisfactory to the people; and if they per-
formed that act of justice—he would not calf it generosity—in
the proper time, and grant those privileges to which the Irish
people were entitled, they would be saved from much of the
difficulty in which the delay now involved the country. If
there were any defects, they could be corrected in Committee.
He therefore trusted his Noble Friend would persevere in

pressing his motion for going into Committee, not with a view
of carrying the measure in its present exact form, but with a
view to do away with the exclusion of Roman Catholics, and
adopt the principles of justice and safety which no honest man
could impede, and which could alone lead to a permanent set-
tlement of the question.—( Hear.)
The Earl of RIPON, in allusion to an observation directed
to him, said he certainly last year had confined his support of
the second reading of the Bill to the extinction of the existing
Corporations, but in so doing he never meant anything so im
proper or absurd as that the Irish were not capable of managing
their own concerns. His objection to the measure arose chiefly
from the danger which he apprehended to the Established
Church. With regard to the functions which the Bill would
confer on the inhabitants of the towns, he must say that by the
9th of Geo. IV. they might perform all these functions, and
founded, too, on the principle of representation. He did not
see why they might not manage their concerns, though the
honour might be less if they did not bear the name of Corpo-
rations. He concurred in the remarks made by Noble Lords,
that the feelings of the Protestant people of Ireland on that
subject had been much exaggerated ; but he did not think that
could be justly charged on the individuals who indulged in these
feelings. The Protestants believed that they would be pressed
and weighed down, that they would be deprived of their
power by their avowed enemies, and that the measure was
brought forward for the purpose of completing their degrada-
tion. He would not say that they did not over-rate their dan-
ger, but that was to be attributed not to what was said by the
Government, but by others who were determined, as they be-
lieved, to bring them to a miserable, degraded condition.
The Noble Marquis said he could see no connection be-
tween these Corporations and the danger to the Church. tic
wished to God he could see the question in the same light.
While making that statement he wished to do justice to both
parties, but to proceed with the utmost caution and prudence.
The Noble Earl, after entering into some details respecting
the town of Limerick, and the mode in which the 9th George
IV. operated, then concluded by intimating his intention to
vote with the Noble Duke. . _

Lord BROUGH AM said he took a very different view of
the tendency of the measure from that taken by the Noble
Duke, and was thereftire prepared to vote for the motion of
his Noble Friend ( Lord Melbourne.) He began now to under-
stand the reason why the Noble Duke had thlclined answering
his question the other night about the nature of his amendment.
On that occasion he asked the Noble Duke if he could give
the amendments which he meant to propose, in order that

they might be printed; and the Noble Duke then gave him
an answer intimating that he had not at the time made up
his mind as to the course which he meant to pursue, or, at
all events, that he had not framed his amendments ; but

from the tone of the Noble Duke on that occasion he certainly
was not led to anticipate the proposal for a delay of five weeks
which the Noble Duke now made. If delay were called for
on this measure, he really thought it would have been more
proper at some of the earlier stages of the Bill than at pre-
sent. Instead of agreeing to the second reading of the Bill,
the more obvious course would have been to have moved the

_ .
postponement of the second reading to the 9th of June. But
the question after all now was, what was the meaning for this
proposal for delay ? He must say that he could not altogether
participate in the satisfaction which his Noble Friend the Pre-
sident of the Council had said that he experienced in hearing
the speeches of the Noble Duke opposite, and of the Noble
Earl opposite, and of the Noble Baron opposite, who had com-
mented on the speech of the Noble Duke ; unless, indeed,
they were to understand that in this case the author had
adopted the interpretation of the commentator, and were pre-
pared to say, " I did not mean what I said, but what my
commentator has said for me."—( A laugh.) Unless this
seas clearly understood, the observations of the commentator
must be taken as his own, and not those of his author; and
then he ( Lord Brougham) would ask, had the Noble Duke
throughout the whole of his speech, from the be-
ginning to the close of it, held out anything in the shape or
nature of an intimation of his intention, he would not say
of supporting, but of not opposing this Bill ; or any ground
upon which to rest a supposition that the Noble Duke, and the
Noble Lord who acted with him, were not as hostile as they
ever were to the fundamental principle of this Bill ?—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Duke said that the principle of local go-
vernment, by means of local corporations, was the sum and
substance of this measure, and that all the rest was only matter
of detail. The qualification principle was certainly a matter
of rather larger detail than the others, but still, in the Noble
Duke's estimation, it had nothing to do with the principle of
the Bili. Now, if all this were true, it appeared to him that
if Noble Lords had taken up higher ground, and had insisted
upon perpetuating the present Corporations, they would have
equally adopted what the 'Noble Duke called the principle of
this 'measure—barring only the feature of qualification.—
( Hear.) The fact was, there was local government in Ire-
land already, perhaps not of a very satisfactory kind, local
government connected with a variety of qualifications; an'l,
therefore, it appeared to him that unless they had the
Biil before them, and considered the whole subject, they
could actually do nothing in the matter. The Noble Duke
said the other night that he was opposed to the principle of
the Bill, but that he would allow it to go to a second
reading, in the hope of being able to get rid in Committee
of what appeared to him and to his Noble Friends to be ob-
jectioneble in it. Ail the Noble Lords who had spoken on
the subject, with the exception of the Noble Earl opposite,
who had always been the f, iend of this measure, followed in
the. same course, and stated a variety of objections, which
peoved that they still viewed the whole measure with unmiti-
gated hostility. But what was the groeed fur delay ? This
was the question upon which he yet stood in need of explana-
tion. lie must say that it struck hint there was something
extremely vague and gsneral in this proposition, under which
he could not help thinking that something lurked, he would
not say of sinister motive—he would not say that because the
No'de Duke himself had fully avowed what his intentions were,
antf he ( Lord Brougham) must have been blind and utterly
stultified if he could not have comprehended at one glance
what lie meant to convey—for no man ever spoke out more
plainly on all occasions than the Noble Duke—no man ex-
pressed himself in less vague and general expressions upon all
matters in which he was engaged—no man was less capable rf
taking no a course which he feared to avow than the Noble
Duke. The Noble Duke might be wrong in many things--
he (Lord Brougham) often lamented the errors Of his course ;
but of one thing he had never accused him, and that was, of
not on all occasions openly and manfully stating what his
intentiolts were on any subject before him. The Noble Duke
had ac.Wd with his usual candour in the present instance ; lie
had declared that he was still opposed to this measure. But
at the same time, whilst be admitted that this candid avowal
had been made on the part of the Noble Duke, he could not
understand why, after that avowal, the Noble Duke should
wish to go on after all with this Bill ; why did lie not proceed
to throw it out altogether, and bring in a better one of his
own, if he was prepared to legislate en the subject. Why had
not the Noble Duke moved-the postponement of the Commit-
tee for six months, instead of five weeks ? The Noble Duke
objected to the Bill because it was bad, and then he said,
" Let us wait fur five weeks, in order to see certain other
measures which are as yet in another place, before we proceed
to see what can be done with this one." One of these measures
referred to, which were as yet in the other House of Parlia-
ment, was on the subject connected with the Church of Ire
land. Now, he wished to inquire how the state in which that
measure might eventually pass through the other House could
properly influence their proceedings in respect to the measure
now before them. It appeared to hint that one of these three
positions, and one only, must be true. Either the Bill now
in the other House would be such as to increase the power
and stability of the Irish Church, or it would diminish its
power and\ stability ; or lastly, it would not affect it either
one way or the other, but leave the Church just in the same
position where it was at present. Now that the Bill ke re-
ferred to would tend to increase the stability of the Irish
Church, the Noble Duke had not the shadow of a hope.--(An
expression of dissent was here understood to fall from the
Duke of Wellington.) Well, he was very glad to hear that
the Noble Duke, after all, had some latent hope on the sub.
ject. Now if the Bill should turn out to realise his (Lord
Brougham's) expectations on the subject, and at the same
time, not to disappoint the very slight expectations of the
Noble Duke—if it should turn out to tend to improve the con-
dition of the Irish Church—then, as he thought, that would be
a consideration upon which their Lordships should be induced
to pass the Bill now before them, and if it were to tease at
all, what reason, he would ask, was there that under such a
supposed state of circumstances it should not be passed now ?
In the second view which he would take of the case, namely,
if the House foresaw that the Bill in the other place would
eventually leave the Church precisely in its present condi-
tion, then he thought that all their Lordships would admit
that this would be no reason for refusing to pass the present
Bill, and, if not a reason for refusing to pass it, still less one
for merely delaying it. He was now driven to his last hypo-
thesis; and he would suppose that, unfortunately, the Irish
Tithe Bill, when it came up from the other House, would be
such a Bill as to make the Noble Duke apprehend that it
would lessen the security and power of the Irish Church.
Now, he would beseech their Lordships to consider calmly of
this position : he put it to the discretion and discernment of
the Noble Duke to consider whether, if they knew that the
rejection of this Bill in their Lordships' House would have
such an effect as to insure the sending up to them from the
House of Commons a Bill which, in their Lordships' opinion,
would tend to diminish instead of increasing the stability of
the Irish Church—ho put it to the Noble Duke and Noble
Lords opposite whether, if they believed this, it could be con-
• sidered by them as a reason for reusing to pass the Bill now
before their Lordships.—( Hear.) If Noble Lords formed
this opinion of the Bill on the subject of the Irish tithes, it
would be a most logical argument for refusing to pass that
Bill when it came before them, or for altering it so as to re-
, move the objections which they entertained against it. But
was there any reason why, because they should eventually
• reject the Irish Tithe Bill, they should now refuse to give
1 the Irish the right to manage their own Corporatkons? But
the fact was, they could not put off the consideration of this
Bill to atva).t the reception of the other Bill from the House.
of Commons under the implied understanding which appeared
to be given by the Noble Duke and Noble Lords opposite,