The Sun.
London, England, 1830-11-12 00:00:00

LOPON, FRIDAY EVENDW, NOVEMBER 12, 1830.

the abolition of slavery as ever ; but, u some of thrOe pets,
'ions called for the instantaneous abolition, he was anxious
to preserve himself from the appearance of acquiescing in
any such 114811 or improvident experiment.
- COAL TRADE.

The 'Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in presenting two
petitions from the proprietors of coal mines on the Tyne
and from the county of • Durham, praying the alealition of
all duties, begged to call their Lordships' attention to that
important subject. Thri, he confessed, was a most unfor-
tunate period fur such en application, as he was aware that
Government requited an inerrased revenue for the increas-
ing expenses of the country ; but he still thought that
something might be done in the way of relief to the parties,
without embarrassing the finances of the State. The peti-
tion asked that the duty cm all coats consumed in the
country should be repe led. He suggested that, if the
export duty were taken off, a large trade with Holland—
now that that country ceased to take bee supply of fuel
from Belgium—might be opened ; and be considered that
the shipping would be considerably benefited if the general
duties. were diminished. He thought it bath that, while
the proprietors of rail-roads were free from taxation, tle.,
moment the coals left that mode of carriage for shipboard
a duty should commence. This was a grievance which
the 'hipping interest might fairly complain of, and he hoped
their Lordships would give the subject their best attention.
Lord TEYNHAM supported the petition.
Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition from Lieutenant-
General Thorntun, of Park-lane, praying that time deck* a-
tion against transubstantiation should be abolished.'
Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from the
Wesleyan Methodists of Sheffield, in favourJ4 the abolition
of slavery. He'said this was one of 266 petititions whieb
he had to offer on the same subject.

,its coming, and then sought for a remedy. With
respect to the real grievance, he concurred entirely
with the Noble Earl who had brought forward this motion
in his opinion of the abuse of the poor laws. He thought.
in common with the Noble Earl, that it was in conse-
quence of their abuse that the present misery, es irate, and
destitution of property, were so apparent seal averts helm-
ing. . He was aware that he was using strong words—
(Meer, hear)—but hewn prepared to prove, by undeniable
evidence, that the danger which awaited any further
neglect was of a most , tremendous description, .and it be-
came the House to institute immediate measures for the
full employment of the labouring poor of the country.
The poor laws, it was universally admitted, were inade-
quate to supply sufficient relief whilst there was such 4
large proportion of superabundant labour in the market.
The mode for affording relief which he would Rugged was
simple, and easy of adoption, either to a partial extent, or
eu a very large scale. There were in this country mil-
lions of acre* of uncultivated lands, and in our foreign
possessions there was a, still more enormous proportion of
suds lands. The immediate sum collected fur the poor
in this country amounted, annually, to seven millions, a
fraction of which employed in the mode which he sug-
gested would afford instant occupation, and consequent
relief, by profitably engaging the poor in the cultivation of
the waste laud.. The principle of she Colonial scheme
which he new suggested, was admitted by Government no
less than ten years ago, fur he recollected being associated
with a certain number of individuals in an undertaking
fur the purpose of investing a sum of money in the
cultivation of certain lands in Southern Africa. By the
charter of the Company, 300,000/. were empowered to be
subscribed, in order to carry their objects into effect; and
the undertaking was encouraged by a Noble Earl, whom
lie bad in his eye (Bathurst), whose unction was followed
by that of the Government to a certain extent ; but it was
ultimately considered by the. Government to be too consi-
derable an undertaking for a private Company, and the
Ministry signified their intention of taking it into their
own bands, which was ultimately done. The proposition,
be would offer was the appropriation of 50,000/. in the
cultivation of waits lands, which would not be too large a
suns to bawd in such an undertaking, as, even if it did not
animer expectation,. it would be compsratively a trifling
Fide. He merely stated this its miler to bring the sulject
again before the notice of Government, as it had previously
occupied their attention, and had subsequently been spoken
and written upon by individuals of the highest repu-
tation fur wisdom. He would suggest that the expe-
riment be commenced on some of the waste lands at
home, and, in recommendation of his argument, there
was the broad fact, that every shilling produced by
this means WAS so much taken front the mime:hies,-
mot amount of the poor-rates. The present admini-
stration of the poor laws, under the Act of the 53i1 Geo,
111., was such As to render labour an absolute puoish-
ment upon the poor who applied for relief. The mode
pursued under that Act, of giving piece-work to the
paupers to do, as a punishment, was not the right way to
encourage a spirit of industry. The plan suggested by
recent writers on the subject of pauperism—that of at-
taching half an acre of ground to each cottage, in order
that it might afford some assistance to the inhabitant, lied
long been in practica in that part of the county of Suffolk
in which he resided : the effects wine most beneficial, and
the success of the plan could not be doubted ;—as an in-
stanee, he would cite un example which existed in a parish
in his own neighbourhood, where thirty-six years ago,
the assessment fur poor-rates did not exceed es. 3d. per
acre—and even at the prevent time it dial not exceed 2s. 7d.
showing an increase of 11. on the acre during a period of
36 years. What was the reason of this? Simply that
all the labourers' cottages in that pariah had, 36 years ago,
a plot of ground attached to Ahem, and tl ose plaits of
ground were Lull cultivated shy the tenants of those cot-
tages. The consequence wta,,that every body debited to
belong to that parials-Nuthiititte sad result of the present
system of poor laws was especially observable in a constant
recourse to perjury in order to attain that end. The poor
' dews might, be said to hold out .a premium upon perjury,
by rendering it so easy fur any poison to obtain a oettle-
meat upon thou terms in any particular parish. He con-
sidered that, if he was enabled by any exertions of his to
ameliorate the condition of the poor, or lighten the pres-
sure of the poor-rates, his time would be spent in a manner
the most satisfactory to himself.
The Marquis of SALISBURY differed with both the
Noble Lords who had preceded him on the present apses-
lion, lie was inclined to attribute the defective state of
the poor laws rather to the basis upon which they were
founded, than to their mal-administration. Whilst he was
yet a young man he had assisted, unworthily, in the other
House, on the Committee which framed the Act of b 3
George 111.. and he was inclined to maintain the same
opinions which he then held. Ile did not consider the
evil to exist in over-population, and would enter his pro-
test against any measure forsthe traniportation of the poor
to other countries, under any plan whatever. Ile hoped
that, on some future occasion, .the House would see the
necessity for going into the inquiry, whets there was some
likelihood of its being attended wills good ; but be thought
in the existing state of the country, it was
cede tea the Bill about to be introduced by
m
'
the.tih7Na"toibrilireeneEt orin accede

Lord SUFFIELD explained.
Lord TEYNHAM begged their Lordshipe pardon for
intruding on their time ; but considered it to be a duty
which he owed to the House to state his tentimeets on the
motion of the Noble Lord. lie had studied the poor-laws
from a very early period, and undersea) I them as well as
any man -living—(A laugh). He coneidered that the law
of Elizabeth, which gave the Magistrate the power of fixing
the rate of labourers' wages to be a most, beneficial one.
In the reign of Chitties the Secoud there was an Act
which rendered it, imperative on those who received
relief from the parish to reside in the workhouse;
but if that Act were in existence now, there would
not be land enough in the whole kingdom to bui4l
the workhouses for the reception of the pour upon.—
(A laugh.)—He denied the demoralization of the Kentish
labourers. Ha considered the distre.sed state of the la-
bouring population in the county in wl.i. It he resided to
arise from two causes--the duty upon hops, and that also
upon mah. Those two combined had driven the peasant
front his comforts ; he was no longer able to brew, told he'
consequently ce,sed to bake. There was a time, in his
revolleetien, when every tuan baked his own bread, and
when, in consequence, there was no such thing as a public
baker. Now every villager got his bread either front the
baker of his hamlet, or from the neighbouring town ; the
wife had ee teed to be notable in consequence of this alters.
Lion in her house. He had in his peeket a letter, signed
by a gentleman iu Kent, stating that the farmers in that
anti the adjoinieg county of Sussex, bad been intimidated
into raising the wages of their labourers to lbs. per week.
lie did not consider the Mill about to be introduced by the
Noble Lord as likely to lead to any good. It was for the
Government to come forward in aid of the poor laws,
and lay a tax upon that property which paid no part to-
wants the maintenance of the pour-.-he meant the funded
property. 'rids would enable the overseers of each parish
to set to work and effect a permanent modification of the
present arrangement. He expressed his satisfaction to
perceive the spirit with which the House was taking the
suLject into their eoneideretion, and anticipated that relief
which would certainly be afforded to the country from
their Lni &hips' deliberations.
The Duke of lIICIIAIOND said it had not been his
intention to trouble the House with any cliseivations upon
the Hill Which the Noble Earl had introduced, but after the
statement which:had just hero made by the Noble Lord
opposite._.a statement which he would venture to say was
not authentic, and which could not be proved, he could
not suffer his silence to be construed into an Acknowledg-
ment of the truth of that averment. The Noble Lord had
alluded to the state of the farmers in Kent and Sussex,
and had said that they had raised the wages of their labour-
ers to Ifis. a week, out hem feeling soy wish to alleviate
their distress, but from a motive which, as far as regarded
Sussex, he would declare never had existed there—a reel-
avi:xgryohfaperiibilbcl;tti;;;;fli:
iiiislyttel:4lo:loyraottfunetliiipsi,,i)ifikitielielv,inentg;
no hesitation denying ; the farmers of Kent and Sul'
d
lubourers.---he hoped that they had done so ; but")heiletitilvun:glii;ll.
such prove to he the case, he thought they were entitled te
receive credit fur better motives than these atttibuted to
them by the Noble Lord. • lie rose, therefore, to give this
statement of the Noble Lord,the strongest eolittA4ivti°n that
Parliamentary language would ailinit of, lie woe let rota
now discuss the merit* of the fill, as it WWI not yet read,
and, consetptently, could not judged of according to
its merits, hut I e would notice *mother assertion of the
Noble Lord opposite, who seemed to wish lb" the

Poor Laws should be inquired into, not by a Coin.
mittee of the House, but by a Commission of Government.
A plan like this could not, in his (pinion, be prodeto.'
live of any good, for the Commission would never do its
duty; nor did he think the House had the right to dele-
gate such a power to any Ministry. A Committee might
he appointed, which could sit up stairs and examine wit.,
nesse', and come to some final determination on the sub-:.
ject. The Members of Government knew little or nothing
about the poor laws, as they were necessitated to reside in
London ; and few, if any, were possessed of much landed
property. He questioned if the Noble Lord opposite
(Bathurst) knew much about those laws, but he hoped,
by meals of a Committee on the subject, to make Go-
vernment so well acquainte&with them as to induce thew
to take them up with a serious intention of remedying;
their defect,. He could nut agree with the proposition
that taxation had nothing to do with the poor laws; the
duty on hops ought to remain as it iv, heoause it encou-
raged competition ; but the malt tax he should belled to
see repealed. He considered relief might be afforded
country by raising taut* on other subjects.
Lord TEYNHAM explained tbat the letter on which
his statement respecting the cause for raising the rate of.
labourers wages in Kent and Sussex, was written by a
person who was of great respectability, and he had given
the letter to the Noble Duke who sat near him (Welling-
ion), who might read it to their Lordships if they wished
it. He trusted, therefore, if this statement was found
be correct, that the Noble:Deice would see that he hod ap.
plied the terms of conteaidkaioo usjuetly towalds hlOn
Lord STOURTON.considered that the pismire of thei
poor-rates varied in different counties, and that in. some
counties it was not so oppressive as in others. Ile would,
instance his own as a case in point, where the condition of
the people was as good now as it was thiity years ago. Ile
would venture to assert that their receipts might be put on
one aide of the account, And the mice of provisions on the
other, and it would be (mind that at no time was their
condition better or more easy than at present—even under.
the pressure of what he might justly term 4 cycle of bad
year+. He stated this to show that the distress did not erire
entirely out of the poor laws—which were beneficial—but
it was from their abuse that the evil arose ; this abuse was,
bow Over, only symptomatic of the disease, which was the
surplus of labour—not, he would say, in this country, but,
in lieland ; and as-long as this surplus exists their Lent.
ships must lay their account with hearing the complain's
of distress. The Irish must either be employed, or they
will continue to degrade the English labourer to their
own level ; and, let the enactments of Parliament
be what they will, they will be broken through, ae
it will ever he impossible to rodeo them to the
other side of the Channel, and to the starvation
that awaits them there, He load heard much of the fe'.
ciprocity between the two countries, but it would he
found impossible, with a bridge, es it might be called,
of steam, to have two rates of labour in ' the
two countries; it would he found impossible to invite over
the licit and detain the poor there, or to di ive them back,
Ile did not pretend to dictate any measures for adoption,
but he would appeal to Government--fir it was not to be
done by an individual—to direct' some of their attention
towards the amelioration of 'rebind. It was said that the
uncultivated lends there were irreclaimable, bet he would
assert that they were not only reclaimable, but he would
go farther, and recommend Government to locate people
on those lands. lie knew there were men who take lands
of this description to a very considerable extent, and
who let email parcels of them, round the boar" of the
bog., to people who would rather live there than nut in
Ira *IA, He legged to apologise for taking up the time
of the House—(Hear, hear)-I,ot them was one thing lie
wished to state, and he woe actuated by no improper feel-'
ing—eucb, indeed, was farthest from his mind,but be could
not but remark that, since the Relief Bill of 1829, which,
htviag risen for the MO time in that House, he expressed
his thanks and gratitude to the Noble Duke for—(llrar,)
—the good expected to be attained lye •that measure had
been suspended in a great degree by the agitation which
was, he grieved to see, still existing in Ireland, sod which
prevented its salutary effect in that country ; but as
the Union with Scotland had ultimately brought great
benefit upon that country, which it failed at first to do,;
owing to the, existing political dissensions, so be eoniii.
tiered that the benefits which would ultimately result
to Ireland from the Union were delayed in contequence
of similar political dissensions, which have tended to de-
prive her of the benefit which she would have derived
from the outlay of the surplus capital existing in this
country. He would suggest, as a cure for the evil, which
afflicted that country, end which might be compared to
a typhus fever, the same remedies which were applied 'in
that disorder--namely, plenty 'of food and plenty of `int-
ployment.—(llear.)
Lord CARBERY said that, after an experience of 81)
years of the results of the Union, he believed that the
volution of the connection between the two countries must
I be the consequence of the repeal of that Union, which he
believed to be the sa`ratiun of both. What they wanted
in Leland, was the 'employraent of English capital, and
that could only be obtained by the continuance of trans
quillity. This, however, was not to I e effected by keep-
g up that al) minable system of agitation which same
men kept up, with other objects in view than the peace of
the :country. Mom the moment of the passing of the
Catholic Relief Bill, the attention of English capitalists
was diteetd towards Ireland, and propositions were en.
terml into for the purpose of embarking large sums In
that country. Since the propolition for the repeal of the
Union had beat agitated, however, to his own knowledge,
many of those propositions were suspended, and that ca-
pital, which would flow in wide arming through Ireland,
would now be checked, or directed into other channel*.
Lord GORT said that, when first the Unite" of the two
countries was proposed in the Irish House of Comment,
he opposed it in ev, ry stage, andlie hoped, therefore, that
his opinion would now have venue weight with his country-
men. He did not know, if the question were to lie again
discussed under the same circumstances es before, whether
he should pursue the saute course ; but the question now
was, whether the Union was advantageous to Ireland ?
He was of opinion that it was adVantageous, and that its
repeal would be the deetruction of that country. They
bad an example, in the cams of Clete, Tipperary, and
Waterfiwd, of the description of Governmeot they would
have if such an occurrence took•place. If the Union were
to be dissolved, there would he a dioodution of the comm.
don between the two countries. When the Speaker was
about to put the question in the Irish Iltmae of Commons,
it was awed by some eminent toen of that day thst 'it
would be advisable to resist the measure by time. Ile had
then the honour to command a regiment, and, though op.
posed to the measure, yet, when it was agreed to by a ma-
jority of the House of Conine's, he felt that it would be
Ida duty to have enforced its operation as checrlutly 411 if it
had been a measure in accordance with hie OWP feelings.
No one could therefore accuse him of ineonslateney in now.
opposing the repeal of the Vision, which experience proved
to have been beneficial to both countries.
The Bail of WINCHELSEA mid that his object wsa
that the operation of the 11111 should be contiped to those
places (Aloe the labouring clams were -thrown upon the
poor-rates for support, lle tepalled the insinuation did
the rise of wages in gent was owing to intimidetion--he
rejected with acorn and contempt the imputation upon--the
landed proprietors, as well 49 upon the great body of the
people of the county.—( Hear.)
Lord STOURTON explained that in the observation•
he made, be meant no reflection on die Hill before ,their
Lordshipv Ilia observations were directed to the state of
the pour !MM....46 Bill wax then read a first time.
The Earl of WINCIIILSEA gave noise that he should
move the second reading of the BM on Tuesday next, if
printed.
The Marquis of SALISBURY, in reply to an observes
don which had Wien from a Noble Lord. %petite, said
teat he would give notice of a motion relative to the state
of the poor laws for Monday week.
The Duke of WELLINGTON mid he was happy that
the Noble Marquis was about so bring the subject forweal,
And he begged to assure him that he would do every thing
m his pot er to aid hint in his investigation. He begged
to assure the Noble Marquis that Government wee not in-
attentive to the subject ; but the real difficulty of the caste,,
was this—the administoition of ohs poor laws Watt an
various in different etointlee, that it was impossible to find
out the teal evil. le one part of the cowry 0 different
grievance tailor' from that which was complained of in
mother, so Alit it wits impossible to fix ott a remedy which
would apply to the eviN of all, The Noble , Lord lied,
stated that the evils wee from the mal-adminietretion of
,he poor laws, whirl, bed led to an over-populations it
was too much to expect that Government could kid a re-
medy for evils resaltin* (few 04.4144tr0tk00 of most

laws, when it was coatideted how various was the nature
of that mai-administration in diffident counties. It was
his wish to give the Noble Lord every assisteinee in hii •
power in carrying on this investigation, in order to see if a
remedy for the evil could be found. He believed that a
&est portion of the evil wits to be attributed to the ntunhert
of Well poor resorting to this country, there being no
provision for them at home. lie wits of opinion • that the
remedyffor the mal-adminicuration of the poor laws was
much more likely to he found out Icy the parishee than by
the 'Ooverntnent. A galena remedy you'd not be 41000 ;
for that which might he applied with advantage in Norfolk.
kwinid hot be enforced In Kent and Suesee withccut the
most serious consequences. -Government, in tail, cool I
not attempt such a course ; bitterer), thing in their pewee
they tore most anzitunt to do for the disci very of at remedy.
LOrdoSVPFIELD said he'did not mean to may that Ga.
Vernment was bound to Snd a general remedy tier all the
evil* of the poor laws, hut that they ought to have pro-
'tided I remedy for that evil which had been echelon lofted
In exist for ten years past; namely, the want of employ-
Mebrfor the poor in every part of the country. This was
.enational matter, and it belonged to the Government to
find'the remedy.
The Duke of RICHMOND rose fur the purpose of con-
gratulating the House that his motion of kat year was at
length found not to leave been a factious one.—( Hear. )
flo was glad that this had been found out at last, and he
trusted now that the country would tierive betotitfrorn ate
discovery.
The-Marquis of SALISBURY acid he felt bound to
clefctxt his Majesty's Ministers on this point. lithe Noble
Lord's' motion of last StssiOn had been confined to the poor
lawa it tvould nut have met with opposition Brom the Go-
vernment.

The-Duke of RICHMOND gait that, if that mere the
feeling on the part of Ministers, they shush' I►a%ejircpoa ei
►in amend►vent to the effeet that tha latter part of his nu►.
alemild he omitted.

The. House then adjourned at Eight otidoeit.

itIOyISE OF COMMONS, THunsDAY,

Several 11ieuthira a/Kik the oaths 4oti their lleYtl.

COLONIAL SLAVERY.
,Mr; List prieented veloy petitions from plactis
.praying far the abolition of sherry ;
Sit Gionless Butreit prosentrd twelve of a similar nature
from _places in Sutrult, ; Mr. Evans !mutated siatpfour
,'roar Leicertershire ; petitions against slavery were also
presented from Peurbytt, liewessit:v-upon-Tyne,and Chat-
him ; by Sir W. Ingilby from 160 places in Lincoln-
' shire ; by Sir IL Parnell from 16 places iu Durham;
by Lord W. Paulen from 4 places in Northumberland ;
by Mr. Robes t Grant from titre placer in Norfolk ; by
sir 'llunmet Ackland, from 8$ plum in Devonshire ; by
Lord Morptth frost 2b4 places in Yorkshire ; and by
differeo4 Members from a peat number of other places.
ThpSOLICITOR-GENEIIAL gave notice, that after
the. Chrjstmas Recess he should move for leave to bring
in a Bill for the better administration of Justice in the
Court of Chancery.
LABOURERS' WAGES BILL.

Mr, LITTLETON poetpoue4l his uotiee of bringing in
alba Int regulating labourers' wages, [tom the 18th lust.
to.the.gol of Deet other,

Mr, O'CONNELL presented a petition front the hat-
tars of Carlow, praying fora repeal of the Legislative
Union between England and Ireland ; and untidier of a
aituilar nature front natives of Ireland, rel.ident in London.
EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS,

Mr. ROBERT GRANT %aid (on the presentation of
a petition), that it was his intention, ufter the mitts, to
Wing forward a measure for removing the civil disaliilitirs
of the AAVI Hear, hear.)
..,41r.,LIUDSON presented a petition front 'fenterden.
complaining of agricultural distmo, praying for so imme—
diate inquiry into the causes for Abolitlon of. Tithca and
for Reform in Parliament.

• Mr. DENISON preaented a petition from the Chur►h
warder►r, Overseers, and Inbotiritmnts of the pit ish of St.
Mary, Newington, complaining of the capenie of the
new Police.

Mrs ,' KENNEDY gave nutive the( on 11,1onday, the
Mk inst. he ►rhould move for ►he production of pepetu
connected with the Elective Franvhiorin Scutlund.

prevented ovoid favoor
Parliamentary Reform.
• DR. PIDLPOTTS.

Lord BEIGRAVE said, he hnd been requested by the
Dean of Chester to make s communication to that Dottie,
and in doing so be begged to take the, liberty of stating,
that he wee not on wrote of very intimate acquaintance
with that Re,: Person, but be had frequestly been brought
into communication with him from the seal which he din.
played in favour of the useful institutions of the city with
whiuh he (Lord Belgrave) was ionnectra. The Very
Rev. Gentlemen had csosidirehly promoted the welfare of
:them estehilahmenta; and he frit that it wee also to his
character to read the shitesment which he had just reweired
from him. He hoped he should buys the pteressiou of the
Howie. The Dean of Chester *a3e4 in s letter to/dressed tee
me (continued the Noble Lord), that be would. eiJerin it a
greAfsvour if I would state to the House that her earnestly
requested lion. Members would suspend their judgment
respecting the subject of the motion t e hr brought forward
on the 1$ h, until they heard his statement, Which he
hoped to be able to prove satisfactorily to the House,
that-in the be presumes to hope, that the ex-
parte eilegittioos end 40111Illetth in the newspaper*, which.
it is obvious he cannot auswer, will not be suffered to
the judgment wbielt the lion. Member* of the House wit
soon', have to pronounce in this ease. For Wroth', he
(Lord IL) would take the liberty of saying to ti e House,
that by. simply .euspending its Jutivent, it wou'd not
pledge itself to any particular opinion. Ile even con
sidered himself pufectly unpledged, end would he guided
only by the meth• of the 0116 C.