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London, England, 1830-06-11 00:00:00

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of Ireland on the some footing with. -the, church of Eng-
land, to give the Catholic the right of voting in the vestry,
anti thus to take away from the few the absolute power
of disposing of the property of the many. He was sorry
that the Hon. Member for Limerick had interposed as he
had done. He (Mr. O'Connell) disclaimed the amend-
meet of the Hon. Member, and felt surprised that he
ahneld seem satisfied with the Vestry Act,
Mr. RICE denied most positively that he was satisfied
with the Vestry Act, and the best proof that he was not
'atisileti with it was, that he had ',moved to amend it.
Mr: -O'CONNELL .had not said that the .Hon Member
.atisritti with the Vestry Bill. He could not have
sold Ito, for he knew" that the Haile Mettalst• had moved to
amend it. What he said wit, that the'Hon. Member ap-
peared to he satisfied With the Bill.
Lord kILLEEN felt some difficulty as to the two
llitestiousnow before the House. He thought the amend-
ttieht of the Hon. Member for Limerick the. be'ter -of the
two, but he could still vote for the motion -of the Hon.
l‘lembet for. Clare and should certainly do so. • It was an
acknowledged fact that the Vestry Bill required alteration
and amendment; and he should certainly be glad if the
Right Hon. Baronet, advanced as the Session was, would
yet undertake to bring in some measure to remedy the
evils of th it Bill. If the Right Hon. Bart. would have
promised to do so, he would not vote for the measure now
before the Ilouse ; but, as matters now stood, he should
vote for either or for both of the propositions now under
consideration.

The House then divided—.
• Per Mr, O'Connell's motion l7
- Against it' l4l
Majority..,.., —124
CHANCERY.
Sir C. WETHERELL commenced by regretting that
to mitch time having been employed in' discussing the
Irish Vestries' Bill he was compelled to bring forward his
Motion at such a late period of the evening. The Bill to
which he objected, proposed the appointment of a fourth
Judge in the Courts of Chancery. He complained that it
had been introduced after Parliament had been sitting for
roue months; but he knew that' in fact this measure, com-
bined- With the Bills for altering the Welch Judicature,
formed so crude a mane, that it was nut fit for the atten-
tion of-the House at an earlier period. Indeed for him-
eels, he thought it was a half built ship, which ought not
to have been launched at all in the present SessiOn. Down,
however, bad come Lord Lyndhuist's Bill from the House
of Lords, and up started at once two other Bills to amend
it. He was most decidedly opposed to his Lordship's
project, and being so he preserved his consistency ; fOr
What he now said there, he had often said in Westminster-
hall. He believed that a fourth Judge was not necessary,
and he considered that the measure which proposed his
appointment was one of the most noxious, pestilent, and
tnischievons, that had ever been introduced to Parliament.
Ile objected to this Bill; because it was intended simply
for the personal convenience of the Lord Chancellor. It
Was not a measure of permanent 'operation; for it was not
imperative on the Crown to re-appoint this Judge. It
Was therefore a sort of job ;• it was destined only for the
convenience of an individual, and coda not be justified by
causes of a aolid and enduring nature. He asserted it was
It shifting thing ; and when the Lord Chancellor-called for
it, he begged ao ask him whether it was because he would
-not do his duty, orbecause he could not do his duty? He
pressed'fbrPanatitiver to this question, and an answer must
be given beforelhey could, with any regard to character
or consistency; atiempt to proceed: The proposition; ac-
-on-111,60y, whitlf he had thdt night to submit, was in the
'thee* of a Resolution :
tt That it is the duty of this "House, before it gives its sanction
to the appointment of a further Judge in the Court of Chancery,
to aseeStain, 'by 'the examination of witnesses; and other in-
quiries, whether a case of necessity exists for such appointment."
Thus he presied, it. upon the House-, that this fourth
Judge should nothe appointed until they were satisfied by
evidence at the tar, • that this new office of jurisdiction
WA% necessary. And how:was it the case actually stood ?
In 1813, the Vice-Chancellor's:Bill was. passed. Till
then, there were only two. Judges in the Court of Chan-
cery third being so added, they went on till 1830.
It was.ta be remarked.tooi that the Lord Chancellor had
•also the-assistance of a, Deputy-Speaker in the House of;
latedw.. But:now, in 1830, a certain class ef projectors
Baid this was not enough—they should have a fourth
•erourt. He, however, asserted that a fourth court was
not necessary, and in this assertion he was supported by
the authority of the Master of the Rolls, who, not once,
but repeatedly had expressed this opinion, and endeavoured
to snake the projectors give up th,t Bill. The Vice-Chan-
cellor had done the same thing. If the Solicitor-Gene-
ral) by crying hear ! hear ! meant to say it was not so, he
‘be4ged, in reply to state it was.. He knew it might be
urged, that because, in his examination before the Chan-
cery Coniroission,- Vice-Chancellor Shadwell bad observed,
_tnree angels could not do the duty of the Court of Chan-
cery, It was quite impossible that he could express a con-
trary opinion at: that moment. But it should be remem-
bered that the Vice-Chancellor's metaphor applied to a
particular periorl,,yflien there was a great arrear—one which
it was doubted could ever he got over. But now it was
different; and Vice-Chancellor Shadwell was a gentleman
in 'Whom there was no back Sliding or tergiversation-
- a qUility not belonging to all men.—(Load cheers.)—
He trusted, therefore, that he would have no Nisi Priiii
allusions to the metaphor. Two oat of three of the Judgeti
of the Court of Chancery were then opposed to this ap-
poiatthent ; two to 'whom there could be no in-
, justitelo.applying,the doctrines of liberty and equality, for
certainly Lord Lyndhurst could not claim a higher scale
:for adhering to his Opinions, or for his veracitytor pretene
sions than could, either of the others.—( Hear, and laughter.)
:.His Lordship might be equal to them, but he was not snore
than equal ; his solitary opinion therefore could not over
. balance those of 'the other two. All men must believe
those Judges perfectly equal; all men under the canopy of
the British Constitution would give them equal and co-
urdinate credit. I think the House will not pay such at-
tention to any individual -authority. I think the House
will not so legislate, and, therefore, they will not assent to
Lord Lyndlaurst's project. He had also, in addition to the
Vice-Chancellor and the Master of AFXells, another wit-
ness to call—the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. He
would abstract the lion. Member for'Veyamuth of 1828
from the Solicitor-General of 1830. rn 1828 he found
the non. Member for Weymouth declared that the plan
proposed by the Hon. Member for Denham for amending
the practice of the Court of Chancery, would cut up our
solid foundations and revolutionize,=(Hear, hear.)—He
took this from the document they usually consulted—
" Hansard's Parliamentary Delates"—Now his moderate
language was, that the change was not necessary—(Hear;
and laughter:)—He had taten the sting out of the meta-
phorical accusations ef the Solicitor-General. In that
speech which he was quoting, the Right Hon. Gentleman
went on to say that 1,0°2 causes had been disposed of in
the Court of Chancel?' during the year 1827, and he stated
'the reason there was not more to be, that there were two
`.;Vice-Chancellors is that year, and that this circumstance
e'necasioned 'delay, since it required some time to make
' Clem masters of their business. In this same 1827, too,
he'remarked tlat the Master of the Rolls had disposed
of 540 cases. Now this was his (Sir C. Wetherell's)
---,third witness. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then
opposed' the Hon. Member for Durham's motion, because
no case of necessity could be made out, and because the
Vice-Chaneellor had not, in consequence of his recent ap-

pointment, acquired a sufficient facility of decision. He
had also another witness, known to many Hon. Members
of that ;louse—.Mr. Bell. This gentleman was entirely
opposes to the change, and desired him so to express him-
self. And further, he believed there was not at the bar
one irdividual who, if the question were put to him its an
abstr.ct shape, would not say that a fourth Judge was un-
neccasary, if the Lord Chancellor would or could perform
Motility. Another witness on his side was the Hon. Mein.
bu for Wootten Bassett, who made a very able speech, for
which he received Lord Lyndhurst's thanks. The Hon.

Aember shook his head ; not of course because he had re-
!Tired, but because(' he had not received the Lord Chan-
cellor's thinks..(Laughter.)—He Loped then that he
would have that Hon. Member's able assistance to prevent
the Lord Chancellor front being thrown into the predica-
' rnent of doing nothing himself, and having a j ourneyman
o assist him.—(Loud laughter.)—The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet too had declared that the multiplication of Judges
Was an evil. This was in 18°8, and then the Right lion.
Secretary argued the change could not be supported by the
u
plea of necessity, on the ground of which it should alone
take place. The Right Hon. Gentleman said he had not
then the papers before him, to show that the necessity
existed in 1828. He asked what new light had broken in
•ott him. He called on the lion. Member for Wootten
Bassett to support him. His thanks, it was true, unlike
those of the Lord Chancellor, were fraught with no pa-
. troilage—they came altogether unfruitful ; but if he
would afford hint his able assistance, he should have his
thanks and his praise for his consistency, and that was
no mean compliment for any man to possess. —( Hear,
and great laughter.)—Ile called on the Hon. Member,
and tile Right 'Hon. 'Baronet, either to support him, or to
show the data which they had procured to prove the mea-
sure should be now adopted which they had tepudiated in
1828. There were 300 bankrupt petitions in arrear
1828. It would be Perfectly natural to inquire what was
the present arrear of bankrupt petitions--there was slot
one in the Vice-Chancellor's paper. In the Lord Chan-
cellor's paper there was an arrear of 29 ; be did not com-
plain of thAt umber there might saint Abundant rcasons

for there being an arrear of 29*pititiona', Iwt there was no
arrear in'the ite-Gh.arieellneti. Court. On the .19th of
February he inoveal.for a return of the arrears of bankrupt
petitions, and the answer tailiat mdtion was, that there
was, at the time of snaking the return, -no arrear. The
Vice-Chancellor, with great. credit• to himself, and ex-
traordinary advantagti td the parties interested, disposed of
the *hole of •thatil. Ile :did. dot like arithmetical logi-
;Zans—bad cases were geneipicluaked in arithmetical
calculations;. but he would just state-a plain case in a plain
manner. In Hilary Term, 1830, there was an arrear of
various matters, causes,' petitions, exceptions,:further di-
.rections, Rte. various matters in the whole, .amount-
ing to 1,061. Now, was the arrear in the Court of Ch in-
eery swelling or contracting? From Hilary Term 1830.,
to Easter Term, there was a decrease of 818 of the total
matters pending—leaving at that time the amount of arrear
713, 348 wiped off, - and not only that, but the bank-
milt-list so diminished, that the Lord Chancellor had only
29 remaining, and the Vice-Chancellor none 'at all ;
and the time of that Judge - was occupied constantly
in ,hearing and adjudicating, so that the, business of the
Court has been freed from anything bearing even the
appearance_ of arrear. The Solicitor-General stated
in 182 S, that 1,000 causes had been disposed of; the same
might be :expected to be done in- the present year, the
more especially as the bankruptcy was gone, and
therefore the' .entire attention of- the Judges can be
given to the existing arrear of '713 causes; and he did
not hesitate to affirm, that if the three Judges did not get
through -the arrear within that time, or if every one of
them did not perform his aliquot part of the duty, then
he would say that that individual would not, or could not,
perform his duty. He made this broad statement of the
condition of the Court, without troubling the House too
much with figeres ; but he believed and knew he was
right. He thotight then that lie stated enough to main-
tain his resolution—to maintain. the broad principle' for
which he contended. Ile had no special predilection for
any particular form; but he would assert that the House
ought not to legial its in the dark—ought not to legi►late
in the teeth of the known opinion of the Bar, in opposi-
tion to the known opinion of two of the Judges of. that
Court—that was all he contended for—he did not con-
tend that a Committee ought to be formed, but the House
should not decide without evidence. Even supposing it
could be shown that the new Judge could do no harm—
stil the absence of a necessity for his 'appointment was de-
cisive against the proposed measure. To adopt the
lingo** of the Right Hon. Secretary opposite, he would
object to the multiplication of Judges as one of the greatest
evis that could* attach to the administration of justice. He
begged of the House to look a lithe at the consequences. If
a new Judge were appointed in Chancery, the Lord Chan-
cellor would never come into Court, for he might well say
that the.Le,;islature bad given him, permission to be absent,
and small reproach would attach to for availing him-
self of. the services of the new officei—he knew not by
what name he was to be called—whether the Orderly of
the Lord-Chancellor, or .by some other appellation—the
existing nomenclature 'of the Courts of Equity was -ex-
hausted, and iewonld;of course, be necessary to find out a
new name for hir7l-; - no doubt, a competent term
would be discovered by which to designate.. that high
officer. Three men, not of high attainments, but of ordi-
nary abilities and 'diligence, were competent to discharge'
the judicial business of the Court of :Chancery, and who
could quarrel with the Lord Chancellor if he availed himself
of the license which the proposed measure afforded him ?
'Upon grounds, then, such as these, he would press upon
the House the 'adoption of his resolution. In every step
he took in this argument, he found himself fortified by the
opinions of all who were the most competent to form a
sound opinion upon a question of that nature, that this
numbing, this unfrocking of the Lord Chancellor, was
`the most unwise step that could be taken in the present
state of the Court of Chancery. On the question then
-under consideration, he might say he had Sir Samuel
Romilly with him, who, in the discussions which took
place respecting the appointment of a Vice-Chancellor,.
contended-that no such officer was: necessary, and that his'
appointment would lead to the Lord Chancellor's degene-
rating from a•legal into a political character, without the
learning,. the experience, or the talents necessary for dis-
charging the'diities 'of his high station. - At that time he
(Sir C. W.) contended that a third Judge was required ;
but if Sir Samuel Remaly was right, and great weight
ought to be attached to his opinion, how true it must be
nthat a fourth Judge was now unnecessary, -and therefore
• mischievonai At an early period of our history it had
been the practice for the Lord Chancellor, on his appoint-
ment, to deliver an inauguration speech, setting forth his
high sense of the duties that had devolved upon him, and
detailing the viriotis improvements which be might intend
_ _ _

,_. .
to introduce in the constitution of the Court, and the re-
medies which he might propose for the redress of griev-
anees and the reform of abuses ; and Sir Samuel Romilly,
referring to the speech of Lord Bacon, which Was pre-
serve I, and to the speeches of others, subsequently ima-
gined the case of some Shotesbury—some hackneyed in-
triguer—some debiting politiciae —hackneyed in debate,
and hackneyed en both sides of questions—hackneyed here
and hackneyed there, the ready tool of any party, the
possibility of such men attaining to high places—though
nut now in them—the telescopic eye of Hominy foresaw ;
and he, as well upon that as upon others, repudiated the
appointment of a third Judge. Ought not, then, the
Pediment of the present day, a fortiori, to repudiate
the appointment of a fourth ? Having now laid before the
House the material grounds on which he proposed to rest
his resolution, he should not enter into any more minute
details—he would net, with Sir Samuel Romilly, contend
that a Lord Chaneellor ought to reside at the law end
of the town. He would not quarrel with hint for
not living in Boswell-court, or Bedford-row, or Chan-
cery-lane, or other places that smelt of the Court of
Chancery--abe was not quite so strait laced as that ;
but he would maintain that the Lord Chancellor
aught to have something left for him to do. When the
Vice-Chancellor's Bill was under consideration, in the
year ISIS, Sir John Leach was of opinion that the third
Judge was not required. In that he (Sir C. W.) differed
from him. His opinion was, that the Master of the Rolls
might, by a judicious alteration in his Court, be enabled
to render the appointment of a third Judge unnecessary.
Thus every authority that could be found was arrayed
against the appointment of a fourth Judge. What could
form the grounds of such an appointment? Nothing, if
there were not -arrears. Now the chief portion of the
arrears had disippeareel, and a commencement in the
work of diminishing them had a natural tendency to in-
' crease the diminution. Sir Launeelot Shadwell applied
himself with energy and assiduity to the work of getting
through these arrears, and with infinite credit to himself
he had made a progress, the results of which could not
fail to he highly beneficial, and to be extensively felt. He
believed, also, that he spoke within compass when he raid
that the Rolls, constituted as it at present was, and the
business of it, conducted as it was by Sir John Leach,
formed an additional assistance to the business of Chancery,
which might be estimated at half a Court ; so that now
there might truly he said to be three Courts and a half for
the despatch of equity business ; but if they appointed a
fourth Judge, the Lord Chancellor might employ his after-
noon much more agreeably thou heretofore—he need never
be open to the imputation cast so frequently upon Lord
Eldon, of being too fond of taking home papers with him,
for in the new state of affairs he iwould have no papers to
take—he would have nothing to do, vacua rcx solus in
aula. But it was said that the Lord Chancellor
might hear appeals. He would have his Vice-Chan-
cellor, and his .Master of the Rolls, and his third
Judge—he knew not by what name to call him—the
Lord Chancellor's Orderly—hiqack Rugby---(A laugh)___
and over the whole three he was to be—to borrow the lan-
guage of an Hon. Gentleman near him—he was to be the
schoolmaster who was to correct the errors of the other
three, who were to be towards him inferior Judges.—
Now, he would ask, where was this sham Lord Chancellor
to acquire the learning, the experience, and the skill
which were to qualify him for being the superior of those
three Judges ? He would have no Court to practice in.—
Ile might be a man of great powers. He might be a
very able and skilful advocate at Nisi Prius—he might
have all the capabilities of becoming a great equity
lawyer—but by that arrangement he would be left without
a Court in which to learn the principles of the science.,_
Thus, of the four, he would be, not the first, but the
last ; and the proposal was to make hint the superior of
all : it was a mockery, a farce, a delusion upon the public,
to think of appointing a man to correct the errors of men
less likely to fall into errors than he was himself. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman then adverted to the ac-
counts he had received of Lord Thurlow from his con-
temporaries, and his successful labours to acquire a know-
ledge of the practice of the Court, because he and Lord
King and others who filled the office, were compelled ito
apply themselves to the business of it. Such would slot
be the case, he observed, with persons filling the of ceiof
Lord Chancellor, if a third Judge were appointed. He
did not so touch want a Committee, as that he wattled
that the House should not decide in the dark. He con-
cluded by moving that it is the duty of this House, &e.,
as given above.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL hoped that the House
would come to the discussion of this question in that ca in
and dispassionate tone which became its nature and i -i-
-t
. portance. The course that_his.Learned Friend had pr-
. sued had also sahjected him to the disadvantage of being
$ deprived of the right of reply which he should have had;