The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-05 00:00:00

CHARTISTS.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM wished to know,
from the Noble Lord opposite, whether any information
had reached her Majesty's Government, that certain
persons called Chartists had armed themselves.

Viscnunt MELBOURNE said he was perfectly
aware that a certain set of persons, who were called
Chartists, had armed themselves.

Lord MELVILLE presented a petition from Edin-
burgh, prayihg for Church accommodation.
Lord FOLEY presented several petitions, praying
for an alteration in the Corn-laws.
A NOBLE LORD presented a petition from a place in
Scotland, praying for additional Church accommodation.
Lord REDESDALE presented petitions from
Yarmouth, Wokengham, and Oswestry, against any al-
teration in the Corn-laws.

The Marquis of NORMANBY Clergy Reserves o
Canada.

MARRIAGE ACT.
The Bishop of LONDON wished that a Noble
Lord had been in his place, who was in the habit of
taking an interest in the Board of Guardians, before he
had risen to make the observations he was about to submit,
but as those observations would not affect the Board
of Guardians, the absence of that Noble Lord was the
less to be regretted. His observations would relate to
a subject that was no otherwise important than as it
bore on the marriage law. Their Lordships were aware
that about 2 years ago a Bill passed, altering to a great
degree the law of marriage in order to satisfy certain
Dissenters who held it to be a grievance to be married
according to the religious forms of the EstabishedChurch.
Amongst other things it was at that time apprehended
that Bill would afford facilities to clandestine marriages.
and the petitions he held in his hand would show that
apprehension was not altogether unfounded. The
number of marriages that had been solemnised since the
passing of the Act otherwise than according to the
forms of the Church had been very insignificant—so
insgnifieant, that had the Legisiature known it,
it would have hesitated before it had made
such an innovation on the then established law
as the Bill made. However, whatever number of
Dissenters felt themselves to be aggrieved, it was the
duty of their Lordships to afford them relief ; the
question was whether the relief provided would
not be attended with more serious cause of
grievance than the comparatively grievance that
existed before. He held in his hand two pe-
titions, one from the Board of Guardians of the
Holborn Union, and the other from the Clergy in the
neighbourhood, and they tended to show that the law as
it now stood, was not calculated to heighten but rather

Lord FORTESCUE—My Lords, I know not whe-
ther, as there is no question at present before Your
Lordships, I am quite in order in addressing your
Lordships ; but whether I am strictly in order or
not, I feel J shall not appeal in vain to your Lord-
ships' sense of justice, if I ask you to permit
me to offer to yo;r Lordships a few observa-
tions with regard to what passed in this House'
on Thursday last, in matters of the greatest consequence
regarding not myself only as an individual, but those
great and important interests in the administration of
which I have been called upon to take a share. I seek
not to deprecate the political hostility of the Noble
Lord who thought fit to originate this discussion ; I
complain not of the Noble Lord having brought forward
this discussion ; but I do complain of the Noble and
Learned Lord founding his attack, without giving
me any notice, on unconnected, and I must say
an incorrect report of words which were spoken
in the other House of Parliament at a time when
I had not an opportunity of being heard in my
defence, or if the zeal of the Noble and Learned
Lord for the Protestant Church in Ireland Was
such as could not wait until I should be present,
it would have been more candid on the part of that
Noble and Learned Lord to have informed me of his
intentions, and to have given me an opportunity of
stating to some friend the expressions really used by me
on the occasion referred to, and thereby have enabled
him to offer such explanations as I might, in my neces-
sary absence, have wished to have been given. I shall
offer those explanations to your Lordships presently, but
before I offer to your Lordships the correct terms
of the speech referred to—before I do this, I would
wish to ask that Noble and Learned Lord, whe-
ther, notwithstanding his great talents, his varied
knowledge, and his well-known tact in debate, whe-
ther, notwithstanding all these, and his well-grodnded
confidence in his varied powers—it has never
happened to him in the heat of debate to let fall
expressions which hare been construed in a sense
very different from that which in his cooler mo-
ments he would wish to have attributed
to them? and does the Noble and Learned Lord con-
sider that the use of those expressions amounts to a
disqualification from hoidlitiA any office. connected

Lord LYNDHURST—My Lords, it is with some
reluctance that I rise, but I am called upon to ad-
dress your Lordships, in consequence of what has
fallen from the Noble Lord, and I beg leave to state
that I am most happy that I brought this case under
your Lordships' consideration, since it has had the effect
of calling on the Noble Lord to state in your presence
the opinions which he entertains, and the policy he
means to pursue with respect to the Protestant Church
of Ireland. My Lords, I have another reason fur being
happy that I brought this subject under your Lord-
ships' consideration, inasmuch as I found in two of the
leading Ministerial prints the very speech to which I
referred of the Noble Lord, set out in detail, and
made the foundation of a compliment to the Noble
Viscount for having appointed the Noble Lord to the
situation of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—(Hear, hear)
—thereby stating in the strongest terms that they, the
supporters of her Majesty's Government, were of opi-
Ilion that declared hostility to the Protestant Church
oLfolnrieLlainedutwenaasntthoefbthesattqcuoaulnifitryca.t_Ch
qualification for
My Lords,
for the situation of
allow me to say a few words in my justification, in con-
sequence of what has fallen from the Noble Lord. And
first, the Noble Lord took occasion again to al-
lade to an expression which fell from me on
former occasion with respect to Ireland, and which
at the time was misinterpreted by the Noble Mar-
quis oppesite. The Noble Lord asks me whether I
should consider the use of that expression was a disqua-
lification
odium that has been caq
oliffi.ciattionco,
ripsrioaiirdinegd in other respects I were qualified for
holding a high situation in that country. My Lords ,con-
sidering the impression which that expression has created
in Ireland—cousidering the use that has been made ,

Lord LYNDHURST—I allude to Lord London-
derry's appointment.—( Hear, hear.) My Lords, when
I put that question to the Noble Viscount I considered
it necessary to be cautious as to the evidence on which
I proceeded. I looked at the different reports of the
proceedings, I looked at what was said by the
different parties in the House—(Hear, hear)—l
consulted some Members • of the other House, and I
was satisfied that I was justified in imputing to the
Noble Lord—l won't say a precise expression—but
imputing to the Noble Lord those opinions, and those
statements which I took the liberty of stating.—( Hear.)
My Lords, I read in the first instance the report from
;s volume which is generally considered to contain the
most accurate report of what takes place both in this
and the other House of Parliament. I read only
part of that report because I thought in putting
a question to the Noble Viscount opposite
on a subject of this kind I ought to be as concise as
possible ; and in doing so, I was charged by the Noble
Marquis with not giving the rest of the speech. My
Noble .Friend, the Noble Earl who sits near me, read
the whole of the speech, and that speech, so far from
contradicting the statements I had made, bore them
fully out. My Lords, I did not confine myself upon
that occasion to the report in the work to which I have
alluded, but I looked also at the report to which the
Noble Lord has referred, and there I found that the
Noble Lord had said that the Church Establishment in
Ireland was a stain and adisgrace to the country, and I find
he also said that it was some satisfaction to him, that
the burthen was about to be changed from the weak to
the strong, and expressed a hope that the war would
continue with effect against the Church Establishment of
the country. I knew,my Lords, that it was possible those
expressions might be misunderstood, and therefore I
looked to the est of the debate, and there I found the
Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, and
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth,
comment upon the expressions of the Noble Lord, and
expressing their regret that the Noble Lord had thought
it necessary to address the House in the spirit
that he had done in support of the Bill, on the ground
that he thought it would effect the ruin of the Church
Establishment in Ireland.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord
upon that occasion did not rise for tho purpose of mak
ing an explanation, but another Noble Lord who leads
the Ministerial party in the other House, gave the ex-
planation. In giving that explanation, did he state that
the Noble Lord did not feel that hostility to the Church
-of Ireland that had been imputed to him? No such
thing. The only explanation that was given was as to
the mode in which the hostility should be carried
on. This, my Lords, is the explanation of the course
I pursued in the investigation. I thought it was
necessary to enter into before I put that question to
the Noble Viscount, and I ask your Lordships whe-
ther I was not right, under those circumstances, acting
upon materials that justified me in considering that in
substance the question I put to the Noble Viscount
was put upon a correct representation ?—( Hear, hear.)
Now what is the explanation given by the Noble Baron ?
Does it not accord with the statements that I have made ?
What does he say ? Why, that the Establishment of
the Church in Ireland is a stain and a disgrace to that
country. What does the Noble Lord further say? Why,
that the effect of the Bill would transfer the burthen from
the weak to the strong, and he hoped that in conse-
quence of that the war would be carried on with effect
against the Protestant Church of Ireland. The Noble
Lord says, of course the mode in which that war is to
be carried on was not to be by agitation but by consti-
tutional means. Does that, my Lords, make aLy
difference ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord is now
placed in a situation at the head of the Government of
that country. The Catholics of Ireland are assailing
the Protestants of that country. The Noble Lord
himself, according to his own declarations, is hostile to
the Establishment there. The Noble Lord pursues
his own' mode of warfare, and no doubt those
with whom he co operates, will pursue them ; but can it,
my. Lords, be said that the declaration of the Noble
Lord will not encourage them ? Will they not feel
that they are acting under his guidance in the measures
they are pursuing?—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, allow
me to call your Lordships' attention a little to the hig.
tory of the proceedings with respect to the Church of
Ireland, which have taken place within the last few
years. During the Ministry of my Lord Grey, immense
reductions were made in the Establishment of the
Church of Ireland—half the Episcopal Bench were re-
moved—the Bishops were reduced from twenty to ten,
and a heavy tax was placed upon the parochial
clergy of Ireland.—(Hear.) That was a great step
towards reduction, and it was as far as that Noble Earl
had thought it necessary to go. Now, with respect to
the proceedings during the last Session. In the last
Session, a Bill was passed by which thirty per cent.
more was taken from the parochial clergy of Ireland.
In what manner was the Bill carried through both
Houses? In the debate, it was stated it was a com-
promise, and in consequence much was given up for the
sake of the harmony, the peace, and -the tranquillity of
Ireland. But one individual said that he would net be
bound by that compromise—that he only considered it
as an instalment, and accordingly soon after the breaking
up of Parliament, we find him establishing a Society in
Ireland, the object of which was the total and entire de-
struction of the Established Church in Ireland.—( Hear.)
" Nothing will satisfy us but the destruction of tithes."
Now just for a moment look at this—after all his de-
sire to compromise—all his desire to establish tranquil-
lity in Ireland—what is the course taken by her Mas-
jesty's Ministers? To place at the head of the Go-
vernment in that country an individual who has avowed
his hostility to the Church of Ireland ; and who, though
he tells us his hostility will be carried on in a particular
form, I ask whether his appointment is not an appoint-
ment above all others calculated to renew agitation, to
give alarm to the Church of Ireland, and to encourage
the Catholic population, which is endeavouring to sub-
vert the Protestant Church there ? My Lords, this is
an explanation of the course I have pursued, and the
motives by which I have been actuated. I am told, in-
deed, and we were told the other night, and I do not
dispute it, that the Noble Lord is distinguished for his
high constitutional opinions and principles. Un-
doubtedly he has upon more than one occasion, by his
active interposition rescued the Government from de-
,
struction—(Hear, bear)—and they owe him a debt
of gratitude on that _ account.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.)—But as far as relates to the constitu-
tional opinions of the Noble Lord, if they corre-
spond, as I presume they do, with those of her
Majesty's Ministers—so far, in my opinion, and ac-
cording to the best of my judgment—so far from being
built upon constitutional bases, I think they tend to the
destruction as well of the Constitution as of the Mo-
narchy itself.—(Cheering.) I shall not attempt to de-
scribe the political character of the Noble Lords oppo-
site—l should be disposed to leave that for the graphic
pencil of my Noble and Learned Friend opposite—
(Hear, hear)—his skill in this description of portrait-
painting is so well known and so highly appreciated ; but
I will say, with respect to the present Government--not
using my own language, but borrowing from one of their
supporters—taking the description of the Noble Lords
in the present Government from an individual who has
for many years been their supporter, and who has de-
clared he would make the greatest sacrifices for them,
if necessary—he has described them in a letter, and to
that description I subscribe. He says, " the Whigs
cannot stand without the assistance of the Radicals ;
the Ministers must, therefore, be constantly doing some-
thing to please them, and thus the rights of the people
will be gradually secured ;" and in the same
letter he describes those rights as being an elective
House of Lords and a complete democratic House of
Commons.—(Hear.) I believe, for my own part, the
Ministers will make concessions just so far as are ne-
cessary to keep themselves in power, and that they will
go on in that way till there cannot be a doubt that both
the Constitution and the Monarchy will be in danger.
—(Hear, hear.) There is no question before the
House, but I stood in such a position with reference to
the Noble Lord who before addressed your Lordships,
that I felt myself called upon to address you. I thank
you for the patient hearing I have had, and I presume
this will be the last we shall hear of this business.
Lord MELBOURNE—If this is to be the last we
are to hear of this, and if there is nothing before the
House, it might perhaps appear superfluous, and in
some degree imprudent and unwise on my part to ad-
dress your Lordships at all ; but still I shall take the
liberty of making a very few observations. Ungties-
tioaahly, if this is to he thn last we are to bear of this

the atattet is to be carried no further, I cannot
help thinftiAlg thai equ'co' that has been taken by the
Noble and Learned Lard in' the highest degree un-
wise and impolitic.—( Hear, hetir.)' What effect
can it possibly have except to stir up' gtieeanees
that had better be left alone—( Hear, hear/—
except to stir up animosity and prevent the possible
&reify; the possible well working of this measure,
which i nova to utirreeessarily, so wantonly, and without
any object brought forward, except that which is un-
questionably and aerhapa unintelationally by the Noble
and laearn'ed Lora! now raised and called in question.
When f Was asked a question on this subject by the
Noble and Learned Lead, and quite unexpectedly, I
answered what was perfectly tette. that I was not aware
of the speech of my Noble Friend, as she Noble and
Ledetted Lord has now read it. It was not for
me necessarily to hnow every speech he had ever made;
hut I was acquainted with the general principles and
character and opinions of my Noble Friend, and my
f,cnnifietige of that character and of those principles
and opinions made me conceive that he was, if not the
fittest, among the fittest of those whose services were at
the command of her Majesty, for this great and re-
sponsible office. I said that he had always supported the
meaattres we had brought forward, and that was all that
was maintained by my Noble Friend ; and if upon that
speech I had pronounced his disqualification, I should
at the same time have pronounced my own disqualifica-
tian for the office I hold, but which I am not so
ready to the as the Noble and Learned Lord opposite
is.—(Hear, hear, nod much laughter.) I don't know
whether the disqualification acknowledged by the Noble
and Learned Lord is confined to those offices to which
it is not very likely he would be selected by any persons
who may be called upon to advise her Majesty ; or, as
there are other offices, Ido not know whether he con-
siders himself equally disqualified for them, or whether be
I reserves his opinion of his qualifications for such offices,
as he may have held before, and which he may perhaps
naturally indulge his ambition in looking forward to
again. The Noble and Learned Lord has made a great
many observations upon leading articles in newspapers,
and-has indulged in reading articles from what he calls
Ministerial prints, and from which he says he is bound
and entitled to conclude that those opinions of hostility
to the Church of Ireland are the opinions of my Noble
Friend ; opinions which he does not entertain, and never
did entertain, towards the Church in that country.—
( Hear.) There is not a warmer friend to the Church of
Ireland than my Noble Friend himself. But it is said
that those feelings of hostility are the best qualification
of the Noble Lord to the office to which he has been
chosen and elected. Now I don't at all acqu:esce in
those representations of these Ministerial Journals.
do not know to which the Noble and Learned Lord
alludes, but Ido not admit the authority—l do not
admit they were speaking the opinions of the Govern-
ment ; and lam sure if am to judge from many of
the articles I have lately read in some which I suppose
the Noble and Learned Lord calls Ministerial Papers,
I cannot consider that they are of a very friendly nature,
or likely to give to Government any very efficient sup-
port.—(Hear, hear.) My Noble Friend has told your
Lordships the principle on which he takes charge of the
Government in Ireland—that he is proceeding thither
to administer the law as he finds it—to carry the law
into effect—to give it powerand force, and to administer
it with impartiality. If I know any man who is likely
to act up to those principles it is my Noble Friend ;
and I feel perfectly satisfied, that under the circum-
stances a better choice could not have been made than
has been made in him.
The Duke of WELLINGTON confessed that he
should have been very embus to have avoided entering
into this subject had it not been for some things that had
fallen from the Noble Viscount in the course of what he
stated in reference tab's Noble and Learned Friend behind
him. The Noble Viscount had been pleased to cast an
imputation on his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Lynd-
hurst) that the course be had taken was likely to pre-
vent the good working of the measure adopted by her
Majesty's Government. The Noble Viscount seemed
to have forgotten entirely what had passed a few nights
ago in that House—that the discussion was not brought
forward by his Noble and Learned Friend, but by the
Noble Lord opposite, and that what the Noble Lord
opposite had said rendered this discussion necessary.
It was perfectly true that they stood now in a situation
very different to that in which the House was a few nights
ago. He (the Noble Duke) was not in the House on
that occasion ; he had been discharging his public duty
at that time in another part of the country ; but from
what he had seen and heard of that discussion, his Noble
Friend then did produce that which was considered by
their Lordships amply sufficient for the step he took.
The explanation of the Noble Viscount was totally dif-
ferent from the text which had been read by the Noble
and Learned Lord ; and he considered that text as
calculated fully to justify his Noble and Learned
Friend in calling on the Government to mike some
representation of the grounds on which they
had made the selection of the Noble Lord to the
thigh office to which he was appointed. The Noble
Lord (Baron Fortescue) had stated his determination
to carry on the government in Ireland upon the prin-
ciples which were stated by a noble relation of his (the
Noble Duke's) own, upon assuming that same go-
vernment, some years ago, namely, that lie should go
there to administer the law, and not to alter it ; but
then the word war had been used, and was he going to
administer the law as it stood, or did he mean to carry
on a war in the alteration of the law ? Was the Noble
Lord going to carry on an administration of the law
by war, or was he going to adopt the more formi-
dable manner of war by carrying forward those mea-
sures, taking them even according to the terms used
opposite, constitutionally adopted, as they supposed,
and which had for their object the alteration of the
law ? (Hear; hear.) He (the Noble Duke) should
be ashamed of himself if, knowing what he did
of the Noble Lord, and after having heard him
this night he could suppose the Noble Lord would in
any manner be a party to those measures which ought
in reality to be called measures of war—which ought
really to be called formidable—if he could have ap-
proved of them, or under any circumstances could be
a party to them. He did expect after what had been
stated by the Noble Lord, that he would go there to
administer the law impartially, and that he would extend
the protection of his Government to persons, to pro-
perty, and to every thing that called for protection in
that unfortunate country. He believed that was what
the Noble Lord would do, and by such an administra-
tion of his power as that he would prevent war. The
real question here was the Protestant religion and tho
Protestant Church in Ireland. That was the real ques-
tion. This had been a principle of the Government
and of the policy of this country for hundreds of years.
The principle had been re-asserted over and over again
at different intervals. He would go no further back
than the Acts and Treaties of the Union. Since that
time there had been what was called the Catholic
Emancipation Act, and in that Act, as well as in an
Act which has been subsequently on the table of both
Houses of Parliament, the principles of the Protestant
Church in Ireland were again asserted and maintained,
and the stability of that Church secured by the oath
required to be taken for its maintenance.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord said that the Church Establishment
was far too extensive for the wants of the Protestant
population of Ireland ; but it appeared to him (the Duke
of Wellington) that it was no more than adequate for
the important and onerous duties it had to perform.
When he fist read the explanation of the Noble Lord,
and when his attention had been first drawn to it, he
thought it was the duty of her Majesty's Government
to institute some inquiry. He wished to see what was
their policy, what was their intention, as to the admi-
nistration of justice in that country, and whether they
still intended to maintain the Protestant Establish-
ment in that country? He (the Duke of Wel-
lington) was very happy to hear the explanation
of the Noble Lord, and his firm and high intention to
administer the laws with impartiality in that country.
He would remind that Noble'Lord that, filling the high
office of the representative of her Majesty in that
country, he had, as he (the Duke of Wellington) hap-
pened to know, very great power and patronage in
respect to that Church, and, really, he thought they
should have some security for the performance of those
duties beyond the bare declaration the Noble Lord
had been pleased to make that night, that he would
maintain the laws. But the House and the public
had a right to expect from the Lord-Lieutenant
of Ireland that he aould not only maintain the
laws, but that be ma Id carry them into execution
in such a manner as to rry into effect the policy of
that country, for the m fintenance and support of the
Established Church. That was the point to which he
thought both that and the other House of Parliament
had a right to look with great jealousy, having little
more than the mere declaration of the Noble Lord
that he would maintain the laws. He felt it his duty to
offer these observations to their Lordships, and to the
Noble Lord opposite, for whom he entertained the
highest respect.
Lord BROUGHAM said, my Lords, I rejoice
greatly that my Noble and Learned Friend gave a no-
tice on this subject, as it has given an opportunity to the
Noble Duke to deliver his manly and candid statement,
which has been marked with the same candour and manli-
ness which has influencedesiery part ofhis career—but, my
Lords, I also do not regret that my Noble and Learned
Friend brought forward this question last week, and
I differ with the Noble Viscount near me, who has
lamented its being brought forward, because I think that
nothing more important could have been achieved than
that which has arisen out of my Noble Friend mooting
the case. I mean the explanation which has been given
by my Noble Friend, the new Lord Lieutenant for Ire-
land. He has told you, what I think has been mistaken
by my Noble and Learned Friend—what, I think has
been misrepresented somewhat by him, doubtless,
from his impressions of it, viz.:—that his opi-
nions remaining the same as to the extent of
the Irish Establishment, that he still considering 30 dis-
proportioned an ecclesiastical Establishment as a griev-
ance to the people of that country, that he nevertheless
is not an enemy or an adversary, or in any manner of
way an antagonist, whether peaceably or hostile, of that
Establishment, but only of its excess.--1 hear.)