The Sun.
London, England, 1863-04-29 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 29, 1863

States, while it was much to be feared that this feelinh
would be greatly inflamed by the remarkab'e p 'eches which
had been recently delivered in that house. Under these
circumstances, nothing could be more shortsighted than
to leave Canada in a defenceless condition, and so they had
to alternative but to keep up a large army there, and
spend vast sums in fortifications. At the same time, as re-
garded the general question, he was glad to hear the an-
nouncement of the Under-Secretary that evening that the
Government were about to start upon a new policy, and
that they were about to withdraw the troops as much as
possible from the outlying stations of the Empire.
Mr, MILLS expressed himself quite willing to withdraw
the motion if he received an assurance that the correspon-
dence would be produced as soon as it was completed.
Mr. C. FORTES _ UE said there was every disposition
on the part of the Government to disclose all the informa-
tion which might come into their hands on tho subject re-
ferred to by the hon. member; but at present there was no
correspondence in a sufficiently complete form to produce.
The motion was then withdrawn.
THE CONSTRUC I lON OF IRON-CLAD SHIPS.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE moved an address to her Ma-
jesty that she would be graciously pleased to appoint a
royal commission to consider the mode of construction and
form of the iron-clad ships which are to compose the future
navy of England ; to report on the ships presently built ant
building, and the amount of dock and basin accommodation
required for their use at home and abroad, The hon. ba-
ronet said there had been three reconstructions of the navy
in his time, but that which was now going on was by far
the most formidable of the three, while the responsibility
of the undertaking was cast on s department confessedly
overworked, Under these circumstances he came to the
house to ask for the appointment of a council of able men
selected to advise the Admiralty with respect to the re-
sults of the great ex periments which had been carried on
during the last few years. When the right hon. member
for Druitwich (Sir J. Pakington) was at the head of the
Admiralty, he assembled about him a council very much of
the character he was now contending for, and the result was
a determination upon the forms of the Warrier and Black
Prince—ships which, as models of form, could not be ex-
celled. He went on board the Black Prince on her recent
return from a cruise of eight ur nine months, and after in-
specting every part of the ship, he came to the conclusion
that a more extraordinarily durable structure he never
looked upon. It was as t the form of these ships that men
were at issue. They sailed very well before the wind, but
their extreme length and very limited powers of steerage
stood in their way in action. The manoeuvre of " wearing"
was practised on various occastons_by the squadron at Las •
bon, and in one instance there was an interval of seven
miles between the first and the last of the ships when they
came round. It was impossible to get these ships to the
wind, and it had become necessary to fit them with auxiliary
steam power for the purpose of working their helms, which
could not be got to work at an angle of more than 37 deg.
without danger. These long ships were rigged with three
masts ;'and while they continued to build their ships of such
an unwieldy size, the stature of the men who were to work
them remained the same. It passed his comprehension how
the class of men employed on board these ships could furl
the heavy sails or do anything smartly aloft. In his
*pinion, it would be a better arrangement to have four
masts instead of three. Another objection to these ships
was the great diversity of size. It should be borne in
mind that nothing was more important in a fleet than
equality of size. (Hear, hear.) It would probably be
found that, while such vessels as the 'Warrior and Black
Prince would sail fourteen knots an hour, others would
hardly attain a speed of nine knots. The Secretary to the
Admiralty had lately given them a statement of what was
doing in the dockyards of France, and he believed she
was doing no more than acting up to the programme
which had been drawn up on the subject of the French
navy. With regard to America, the naval administration
had been completely unrestricted in the construction of
iron ships, and yet, with all the skill of her naval engi-
neers, they had not succeeded in building one serviceable
iron-clad ship. He had seen a very full description of the
American iron. clad vessels in a French publication. They
were divided into eight or ten different classes, and varied
in tonnage from 4,000 tons to 700 or 800 tons, and they
were of every variety of speed and construction. And yet,
in the recent action which took place at Charleston, nine
of these vessels were defeated, one was sunk, and the others
got off with difficulty. He wished to direct the noble
lord's attention to one of these ships, which more nearly
resembled the Warrior, because she refused to answer
her helm, and became unmanageable. The hon. baronet
then directed attention to the great advantage of
having a small class of gun-vessels, which, in the event of
the large vessels becoming unmanageable, and therefore
stationary, could sail close to them, and from points of im-
punity discharge 3001 b. shots at them. He next referred to
an imprudent paper, which had been issued by the Govern-
ment, casting reflection on the building of the ships in
private yards, and observed that while he upheld the prin-
ciple of the Government building wooden ships in their
own yards, in preference to private yards, from the fact that
their stocks of timber was always superior to the resources
of any private establishment ; yet, in the matter of the
building of iron ships, he thought there should be no objec-
tion to having them built in private yards until such time
as the Government had sufficient dock accommodation of
their own. No one who had carefully inspected the iron
ships which had been built in private yards could deny that
they were models of naval architecture. He begged to sug-
zest that the Admiralty should avail fun
invention of the double screw, which was a very great
imirovement. The double screw gave a vessel extraordinary
facility in turning, in going ahead or astern—in short, such
advantage as a man with two arms possessed over a man
having but one arm. There was another point which he
wished to press upon the Government, and that was the
necessity of providing increased dock accommodation. At
present they had not a dock in the world out of England
with the exception of one at Bombay where they could dock
a frigate, It was important the Government should turn
their attention to this subject ; for in the event of a war
the want of dock accommodation would prove a serious
impediment. The number of transports would keep the
mercantile docks in continual employment, and they would
not be available for the large iron ships of the Government.
The hon. baronet concluded with a protest against further
proceeding in the present mode of iron ship-building,
without first calling together the greatest practical autho-
rities of the country, and obtaining their opinions.
Lord it. MO.NTAG U moved as an amendment that,
with a view to provide for the economical construction of
ships for the royal navy, of the most suitable forms and
materials, the Board of Admiralty should be empowered by
Parliament to introduce, into the public service a class of
persons equal in education and position to the military
cadets of Woolwich, who might (subject to conditions,
ultimately fulfil the duties of Royal naval architects.
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY, having corrected several mis
takes which he said occurred in the course of the debate

said the Warrior had hitherto laboured under the defec.

of not turning quickly to its helm ; but a letter which he
had from Captain Cochrane this morning showed that
this was likely to be got over. He would read an extract
from the letter : "You will be glad to hear that we
shall be ready for sea in a few days. We have

been fitted with hydraulic steering gear, by which one

person will be able to steer the ship, and to put the helm

over with the same facility at full steam as at slow. We

shall be able to turn the complete circle in six minutes,
which is a feat never yet accomplished by a vessel of its

size." The cupola ship was a more efficient ship than the

port -sided ship ; but in it there was one defect—the liability
of the gun to get jammed on the pivot as the ship listed. In
the attack upon Charleston, the Ehot from the forts, as it
appeared to him, did not go through the turret towers, yet
the force of the shot was such as to jam the guns against
the pivots and so render them unserviceable. He did not

think that we could learn much from the attack on Charles-
ton, because the vessels that were in action were very dif-
ferent from our own, but they offered remarkable resistance
to heavy shot, some of them having received 90 shots and

yet cane out of action. 'We had no reason to be dissatis•

fled with our armour plated ships, which were superior to
any in the world. His only complaint was that they cost a

great deal of money. He thought it would not be advisable
for his noble friend to press his motion. Ho condemned the

Admiralty for trusting to tho opinion of on© man in matters

of shipbuilding, and recommended a board of five or six to

watch improvements and report thereon to the Comptroller
of the Navy.

Lord C. PAGET—I think it would bo very unadvisable
to intrust the department of shipbuilding to such a board

as my hon. friend recommends. We have already got the
Controller of the Navy, with a staff of assistants, who has
charge of this department. This debate is a fair illustration

of the difficulties attendant upon shipbuilding, and ought
to convince the house that the proposal of the hon. baronet
to refer this matter to a Royal Commission ought not to be
agreed to by this house. lam quite aware that upon many
questions, such as the pay of the navy, the manning of the
navy, or harbours of refuge, the labours of a Royal Com-
mission are exceedingly valuable. But what commission
could make a report of any value on the construction of
ships i During the Admiralty administration of
toy right
hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington) the question of shipbuilding
occupied a great deal of their attention, and the Government
appointed a body of gentlemen of high talent, of whom my
right hon. friend the member for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) was
one. That committee, which was very liko a commission,
made inquiry into the subject of shipbuilding. They com-
pared the French navy with that of England; they com-
tphaere
cid
et
vheer
nFnar ee nn ct hwdockyards
owsiat
wo awneds t
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ee
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em ee toot.

what was called the reconstruction of the navy. I mein to
impute no blame to my right hon. friend, but according to

the
ltheins •
oi lights hht
as
twt we
shipsno w possesswoh lwould
h
ave t
expenditure was
iron-
cased ships. (Hear, hear.) That vas
en-
teredini
was a member, and byeaesht sums
better t expended n. expended
innd ed illtto, bvyertyhemGuovernment of which my right horotn.offritehnids
Committee. By thelitimecontinued
they consequenceb y
reportedthe
ofgrtheaet Governmentrep
progress that
had fol-
lowedbeen made in other directions, and to-morrow, if a commit-
tee or commission were appointed, before they could get in-
telligence or evidence on which they could found a report,
it might turn out worthless, because from day to day the
Admiralty are making new experiments. Only yesterday
an experiment was tried, which, if it succeeds, will alter the
ootabtructicaa or rather the framework--tho upper works—of

our armour-plated ships. Take another example, any corn
mission appointed a few sic:aths ago, would have recom-
mended us to build turret ships, but what is the news we
get from Charleston ? We have nothing official as yet, but
such information as we have is rather against turret ships.
It is therefore quite impoirble for any inquiry to do justice
to the subject or for a cournission to make any report that
would be of any assi tame to the Admiralty. We are all of
the same mind; we want o construct a navy of the greatest
possible efficiency, and v.erthy of the power and dignity of
this country. But there ere not two people who agree either
as to the class, the form, it the armament of ships. My hon
friend opposite would sae, for example, of the Warrior that
she is tonong and too bit, and that she would be damaged
by smaller and handier slips constructed at much less ex
pense. We aro now ascernining what is the smallest class
of vessels to which armote-plating can be applied. Indeed,
with regard to armour-plated flips the Government are en
gaged in carrying on expriments in every direction. We
have got an Armour-phte Committee—a most valuable
body, upon a most important branch of the business, and
one which requires the undivided attention of scientific
men, because upon the hen plates, their capability of re-
sistance and their fastening, the whole of the efficiency of
our armour-plated vessels depends. (Hear, hear.) 1 could
not discaver in my hon. friend's observations and real
grounds of complaint against the Admiralty; neverthe-
less I have no doubt that these discussions are extremely
useful, because they call the attention of the Government
and the public to the various improvements that may be
made in the construction of our vessels. There is one
matter which may turn out to be of great importance—
namely, the construction of twin screws. My hon. friend
assumes that a construction of that kind has no defects. My
own belief is that in some class of vessels it may prove to bo a
very valuable invention. But the Admiralty cannot order
vessels of that construction without awaiting the result of
the trial of the ships which are now being constructed upon
that principle. With regard to the old floating batteries,
my opinion is if you were to lengthen them you would
make a very bad job, because, in the first place, their state
is not very satisfactory; and in the next, I would defy any
practical nasal man to make anything out of them. My hon.
friend speaks of putting three masts into those very long
ships, but I think he might have learned at Portsmouth that
we are putting five masts into the Northumberland and
vessels of that class. Again he says, " Build your iron ships
in your own dockyards." When he said that, I looked to-
wards my hon, friend on this side of the house (Mr. Lind-
say), and also to the hon. member for Birkenhead (Mr.
Laird), who seemed to look blue at that recommendation;
Duc neither of those hors. ai uticusvu aNYcarod 50 agree Iti
that proposition. For my own part, I should be sorry that
the Admiralty should never employ any of the great
shipbuilding establishments of the country. We don't
think it at all advisable that our dockyards should be
considered as the only places where wo could build armour
plated ships; or, on the other hand, that the Govern-
ment should be thrown entirely into the hands of contrac-
tors. (Hear.) There is a juste anthem. It has been said
that it was matter for regret that the Achilles should have
been built at Chatham. But I challenge my hon. friend
the member for Sunderland—now that we have got our
dockyard accounts in as good a state as his own can be—for
they are no longer under the Controller of the Navy, who
is a spending officer, but under the Accountant-Gene-
ral, who is a controlling officer—to show that our shies
built in the dockyards are so expensive. (Hear.) He says
the Achilles will be found to have cost vastly more than
any of the armour plated ships built in the merchant yards.
Now, we will remember that when the accounts are closed,
and we shall see whether it is so or not. (Hear, hear.)
My belief is that she will be found not to have cost much
more, if any more. My hon. friend proposes that we should
go to a large expense in docks and basins. (Hear, hear.)
Well, I must say I admire his modesty in not having
alluded to Portsmouth, because I think he must have been
disappointed that the Government had not commenced a
basin there. The remarks which have been made about the
want of dock accommodation in foreign stations are quite
true. In the East and West Indies, China, and North Ame-
rica, there is a great want of dock accommodation ; but her
Majesty's Government have not lost sight of that. We have
not thought fit to propose to Parliament the construction of
a dock at Hongkong ; but a very intelligent gentleman has
undertaken to build one which shall contain the 'Warrior,
upon obtaining an advance of money from the Government
upon certain fair conditions, and my belief is that we shall
have a dock constructed there available for the Warrior. In
like manner, at Bermuda, where one of those docks is
wanted, I have very little doubt, should I continue to sit on
this bench, that it will be my duty to propose to Parlia-
ment to vote a sum for that purpose. But we have taken
a very large sum—no less than £lo4,ooo—this year for
docks and basins—for two docks at Portsmouth, one at
Davenport, for enlarging the basin there, for the Chatham
basin, and the Malta dock. We shall have the dock at Malta
on very cheap terms, because the Maltese Government are
going to share the expense. Under these circumstances
I think the house will see that it is impossible for any com-
mission to take away from the Government the responsibi-
lity of keeping this country at all times in a proper posi-
tion as a great maritime Power. (Hear, hear.) That is our
constant business, it is for that we are paid and for which
we are responsible, and I do trust that the house will not
now or at any future period do anything to set aside the
responsibility of the Government upon this point. (Hear.)
The observations which have been made by the noble lard
the member for Huntingdonshire (Lord R. Montagu) upon
ie., ces. ..2 4,,,t4.• 4., ..cav wvaulay us attention.
That was a most valuable institution. A great class of
young naval architects was trained there, and when they
had finished their education it was found that the Govern-
ment had not the means of employing them all upon high
wages—for they would not accept any but high salaries.
The result was that when they had completed their train-
ing at the public expense they were spread about the world,
and it was thought that the Government would not be justi-
fied in keeping up that expenditure. The school was after-
wards revived on much the same plan, but again fell to the
ground. My noble friend the Duke of Somerset has felt
very much the want of some satisfactory arrangement by
which we should obtain scientific architects for the benefit
of the public service. (Hear.) Various proposals with that
object have been put before him. The right lion, member
for Droitwich was good enough to call on my noble friend
and make proposals, when I believe he was received in the
most friendly manner, and assured that any really tangible
scheme submitted to him would be attentively considered.
In whatever way the end in view may best be attained,
whether by the establishment of a school for the benefit of
the shipping interest generally, to which some assistance
might be given by the Government, whether by founding
scholarships at the University, or by any other means, we
are fully sensible that a great want exists in this respect
and any scheme which promises real and permanent sus
teas will meet with our earnest attention. With that assur

ance I trust that the noble lord will not press his amend-
ment, As to the motion of the hon. and gallant gentleniou,
I think it would be very unadvisable that the subject which
it embraces should be referred to any commission. The Go-
vernment have the means of obtaining information from all
quarters as to the best contrivances for the building, mast-
him or arming of ships, and I sincerely hope the matter will
bo left in their hands. (Hear, hear )
Sir F. SMITH said we had not either economical con-
struction nor the best mode of construction. He suggested
forming master shipwrights into committees to give designs
for the construction of ships. The house wanted some as-

surance that a different course would be pursued in the
future to what h td hitherto been followed.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE, in reply, said that the noble
lord had admitted that the Government had no dock accom-

modation in any part of the world. He had not altered his
opinion as to the best solution of the question, but he would
withdraw his motion.
SEWAGE OF TOWNS COMMISSION.
Mr. K. SE YMER moved that the analysis of evidence
appended to the report of the select committee on sewage
of towns in the session of 1862 be cancelled, on the ground
of an irregularity in the proceeding of that committee in
excluding all debatable matter from the report of the com-
mittee, and producing it all in the analysis of evidence.
The hon. gentleman quoted from the report and analysis in
proof of the proposition.
Mr. PAGET seconded the motion.
Mr. BItADY opposed the motion, and contended that
there were three propositions which could not be contro-
verted—First, that the agricultural interest suffered from

the want of good manure ; secondly, that that want had

been partially supplied by artificial manure; and thirdly,
that it was not for the interest of the trade that any change
in Ihe present system should take place. The hon. gentleman
then proceeded to criticise the report of the royal commis-
sion, and remarked especially upon that part which alluded
to the unknown process of applying manure all the year
round.

Mr. AYRTON supported the motion.
Sir G. GREY thought that there was some mistake in

he manner in which the hon. member for Leitrim em

bodied his views on the report, and recommended the ana
lysis to bo cancelled.
i. r. BRADY consented t) withdraw the analysis.
The motion was agreed to.
BAKEHOUSES REGULATION BILL.
The report as amended was considered.
ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (IRELAND) BILL,
The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered and
agreed to, with the exception of one, which was rejected

on a division by 21 to 20.
WAYS AND MEANS.
The report on ways and means was brought up and
agreed to.

In answer to Mr. L YOON,
The CHA.NCELLOR, of the EXCHEQT3ER said he
could not state what would ho the amount of the tax on
club-houses.

The Consolidated Fund (£20,000,000) and the Exchequer
Bond (£1,0000,000) Bills were read a second time.
The house adjourned at five minutes to two o'clock.

AMERICAN MAILS. —The following steamers are
due this week :—The City of New York, from New York
on the 18th inst., is due at Queenstown this morning; the
North American, from Portland on the evening of the 18th,
is due at Moville or Greencastle this evening:; and the
Africa, from New York on the 22d inst., is duo at .Queen.
3tgw7l Qu Saturday