The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVE NING, JULY 15, 186

ployment open. Parishes had by law ample powers to
keep emigration in check, but they had not seen it expe-
dient to put the law in force. The Government could not
curtail emigration.
Mr. HENLEY deprecated the use of the expression
by the right hon. gentleman, "England's misery was
bourne's opportunity," as positively indecent, seeing the
succour afforded by Australia to the suffering operatives at
home. (Hear, hear,) He lacked information with respect
to the .£250,000 spoken about as to be furnished by the colo-
nies to promote emigration. Fearing that the Lancashire
hd distress in
ed the
it
wiseco mintgo winter
give
every wouldpo bewe exceedinglyrtn the
authoritiessevere,
that might possibly tend, in their discretion, to mitigate the
houillldheanayevpeotretdiotne
)thisC
emfisthereylth2oaot,oporclevtaeilehde.
ra(Hiseedaru,
nhdeearr.
emigration ?
Mr. VILLIERS replied that the guardians could use the
money for any purpose to which at the present time they
could devote the ordinary poor rates. (Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN thanked the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Villiers) for the patience and zeal which he had devoted to
the alleviation of the distress in Lancashire. (Hear, hear.)
The motion would be inapplicable, because the session was
nearly at an end, and it would be requisite to send out to
Australia to get the co-operation of the authorities there to
assist in the work. He had inquired at the Colonial-office,
and found there was not is, in hand, so far as the colonieswere
concerned, to assist emigration. (Hear, hear.) Then the
Queensland Company, and indeed, the Emigration Office,
in prescribing the nature of persons helped to emigrate,
omitted factory operatives, because there is no field of ope-
rations for them. The operatives themselves—especially
such as lived together in parishes, receiving Irons £1 10s to
£2 per week—objected to emigrate. If so, they would have
heard a good deal about it. It would be cruel to ship off
people to the antipodes, without being sure they would
do well when they got there. Queensland was
one of their youngest colonies, and with a small
population, and possibly in a few months they might learn
that this population was too great for its resources. He
advised the working people not to emigrate to any place
except they were pretty well certain that they would be
able to do well for two or three years abroad, and not to be
carried away by such ill-advised schemes for their so-
called benefit, as that advocated by Dean
.Close, who, in a
recent case, desired to consign a number of emigrants to
the care of Captain Pitt, an aide-de-camp of the governor,
without being satisfied that they would do well there.
Sir B. LEIGHTON supported the motion.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the
debate would bear some fruit, and that the house would
quickly divide upon the motion. He defended the right hou.
gentleman (Mr. Villiers) from some expressions cast upon
him with respect to his address. His right hon. friend simply
meant to contend that it was no part of the functions of the
Government to direct and control emigration. The right
hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) then
entered into an explanation of the existing acts bearing
upon the matter at issue, and argued that this was no time
to lay down a new principle of operation, seeing that these
acts were deliberately enacted, and when wages and comforts
of the industrial classes were being generally enhanced.
The factory operatives were not a class of emigrants who
would succeed in the colonies. Moreover, the bill was only
sought to be enacted for six months, so that it would be
futile to place this clause within it. Our colonies had be-
haved nobly in regard to the Lancashire distress, and it
would be unfair to send them shoals of emigrants for whom
they had no need. He should, therefore, vote against the
motion. (Cries of " withdraw.")
Mr. DODSON supported the motion. _ _

Mr. CHlLDERSwithdrew his motion so that the
house might go into committee, when he should preps° a
clause that would, he hoped, meet with the approval of
the Government. _ _ __

After a few words in explanation, by Mr. HORNBY and
Mr. FERRAND?
The motion was withdrawn.

The house then went into committee,
On clause 1,
Mr. POTTER proposed to add the following proviso :
Provided always, that the secticns 3 and 5 of the said Act
shall be construed and read as if the words " one shilling
and sixpence" had been there inserted in lieu of the words
" three shillings."
Mr. VILLIERS said he had fixed the amount at 3s, after
minute inquiry, and believed it would work well.
After a short discussion the amendment was withdrawn,
and the clause passed.

Mr. T OLLEMACHE proposed the following clause :
That section 3 of the act of last session, as extended by this
act, shall be read and construed as if the words " six shil-
lings and sixpence," were substituted in that section for
five shillings."
Mr. VILLIERS assented to the amendment, so that the
clause will stand at 6s. 6d.

In reply to Sir H. WILLOTJGHBY,
Mr. VILLIERS intimated that the rate of interest
would be similar to that paid on account of public works.
The remaining clauses were agreed to.
Mr. CHILDERS desired to propose an amended clause
with respect to emigration.
Mr. VILLIERS asked his hon. friend to propose the
0t...00 on the report.
The sitting terminated at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN IN POTTERT-Fts

Mr. FERRAND gave notice that on Thursday he would
ask whether the Government intended in the ensuing next
session to introduce a measure placing children employed
in potteries and paper-tube factories under the protection
of the Factory Acts. And also whether their attention had
been directed to the great destruction of human life for
many years past by the bursting of steam boilers, and if so,
whether they were of opinion that steam boilers ought to be
placed under Government inspection.

having regard to the condition of Lancashire, that some
chidages were necesssary with regard to the administration
of the affairs of India. He believed great discrepancies
existed between the services in India, and that the medical
service had good ground fa' complaining of inadequate
rewards. He hoped the Minister of India would take a
cofisiderate view of the proposition of his hon. friend,brought
forwari in so moderate a manner; and as it was too late to
do anything in the present session, that the matter would
be kept in view during the recess, se that some measure
might be introduced next year which would lay the basis
for the welfare of India, and at the same time provide for
the comraarcial prosperity of the people at home.
Sir C. WOOD said, with regard to what had fallen from
the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he thought he
had distinctly stated on a former occasion what had been
done by the Government of India, and that nothing* had
been omitted which was deemed to be of advantage to the
people of India and to the commercial benefit of this country.
Whatever had been done had been done with the entire ap-
proval of a large majority cf the council ; and the only
question upon which a difference of opinion took place
was with reference to the sale of waste lands. The hon.
member opposite had said that he might be asked why he
had brought forward the motion, and it seemed to him that
the hon. member had good reason for putting the question,
as he had not advanced one argument in support of it. The
hon. member had not instanced one fault, one case of ne-
glect; but, on the contrary, had stated that he did not im-
pute any blame for the non-performance of duty either to
himself or the council over which he had the honour to pre-
side. The only reasons give in support of the motion were
the opinions of certain members of that house on a former
occasion. But after the experience which he now possessed,
he could only say that he had every reason to be satisfied
with the number and constitution of the present council;
and he was glad to have that opportunity of expressing the
obligations he was under to those gentlemen who, though
having been members of the old council, and being placed
in a difficult position, had yet worked in a cordial manner
in the administration of the affairs of India; and the coun-
cil themselves were also satisfied with the manner in which
things were conducted. The noble lord opposite, who was
the author of the bill appointing the council, had stated that
the Minister of India was to be surrounded by those mem-
bers of the council who were men of great experience, and
who could give him the best advice ; but still that the Mini-
ster would be bound in every case to act upon his own single
and individual responsibility. (Hear.) He had followed the
example of the noble lord. and claimed the right of taking
or not taking the advice of the council, and acting upon his
own responsibility. Did the hon. member mean to say that
his Parliamentary liberty Ivo t o be fettered, and that he was
to be prevented from bringing forward any measure which
ho thought to be for the good of the country, because he
differed from his own council ? The amalgamation of the
Indian army was not a purely Indian question, but an Im-
perial question, and, although the council were opposed to
the measure, still it was supported by a large Parliamentary
majority, and proved successful. (No, no, from Col. Sykes.)
He did not expect the hon. and gallant gentleman to con-
cur in that opinion ; but it could not be denied that Par-
liament had approved of the measure. He could only say
that he was satisfied with the council, and that it would
be impossible for the Secretary of State to go on without
the council.

Col. SYKES said the right hon gentleman had himself
fully established the fact, that upon a question affecting the
interests of several thousand officers he had set at nought
the unanimous opinion of the council, although they were
to be his advisers and mentors upon all questions relating to
India. He could tell the right hon. gentleman that the
amalgamation of the Indian army with the Imperial forces
was producing a feeling of rankling discontent in India,
and the present system might, at some future day, lead to a
mutiny or some other terrible convulsion in India. The hon.
and gallant member thdn contrasted the old system under
the Court of Directors with the present council, and said
that while every member of the old board could give notice
of motion and discuss any question he thought proper, like
members of that house, the existing council could initiate
nothing, but were ruled absolutely by the Secretary of
State, who in his way was as great a despot as Alexander or
Darius.

strengthen the council, and that they should be allowed to
be elected members of Parliament, although he was not
Sir E. COLEBROOKE said he would be willing to
quite sure but that this might have a contrary effect. At
tleman had everything his own
present it could not be denied but that the right hon. gehn;
was backed by a strong Government, at the head of w
was the noble viscount, who enjoyed so much popularity.lia
way in the council, for he
But there might not be a strong Government
rise in importance and pessess greater influence.
to be raised
Lord STANLEY said the questions proposedfeneralpolicy,
power, and in this case he could suppose the counewilawysould
were not questions of detail, but questionso
deliberateg opinion fiv
upon which the house had expressed a
years ago ; and inasmuch as the)!
a select body of gentle-
debate by that house, and not by
men, he hoped the motion would not be pressed...
were all matters for full
been expressed, his hon. friend would withdraw his motion.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY also thought that a commission
when the Secretary
was not desirable, and asked whether,. .
Mr. KINNAIRD said that after the opinions that had
of State for India differed from his council, he recorded the
obligation upon the Se-
groundsshe. fioir,
ohoispdtsjeantuisteriev
member of the council to state the
cretary of State or any
upon any question, though he might
reasons for his opinions
occasionally have done sO• .
Mr. MILLS then withdrew his motion.
-a- PRIZE PROPERTY.
ARMI
Col. NORTH then rose to movs, an address to her Ma-
royal commission. to inquire into the
jesty praying for a
prize property, and its mode of distriba-
realisation of army
tion, and into the cause of the extraordinary delays which
ruitairsi gno?
had in most eases occurred in its distribution to the captors,
for the same. The hon. and gal-
with a view to a remedy
lant colonel then alluded to the enormous delays that had
occurred in the distribution of the prize money from India,
army,had
which, in some cases, to the disgust of the
kept back so manyn Sears that ot one-fifth of the rightful
claimants survived. (Hear.) The amount of unclaimed
in hand was no less than £1,163,339, and
prize money now
the interest cn it was ... £253,587, all of which ought to have
been divided amongst those entitled to it Jong ago. He much
regretted to find that £556,752 out of that fund had been
applied to Chelsea
Hospital, and £40,000 for army
_school-
masters' buildi p—
. 120.,, he thought that those were not proper
appropriations of th° money.. _
Lord PALM TENS
- ON said that her Majesty's Govern-
ment had no objection to accede to the motion of the
hon, and gallant ()pacer, because they thought it might
prove very advantageous in many respects. It might be
as well, however, to omit the word " extraordinary" from
the terns of the
motion ; because, in the first place,
it seemed to imply
censure, and, secondly, because it did
not in truth represent. the fact. (A laugh,) He had
often felt the injury that was done to the service by the
delays in sharing the prize-money, but whenever he had at-
tempted to inquire into the matter he had always been met
by the reply, that there were so many things requisite to be
done before the
money was distributed, that the delay was
unavoidable. An inquiry would therefore probably be of
great advantage in showing the truth of that matter, be-
cause, if it were the fact,
the more
eenerally the reasons for
it were known the better. One great evil of the delay in
the prize-money
fora were that the claimants were
distributing
sell their claims a small present
disposed to s payment, so
that when it came to be paid at last, the bulk of it went to
a lot of speculators, who made a large profit it. It would be
an objec • t with her Majesty's Government to see that the
commission was composed of such elentents of information
andauthority as should render it satisfactory to the house
Hear.
and to the country. ( )
Sir S. NORTHCOTE—The noble lord would not forget
to take into consideration the necessity for some legal and
properly constituted tribunal to settle questions of disputed
claims amongst officers.
complained that the hon. baronet had im-
Sir C. WOOD
properly gone into the merits of the Kirwes and Banda
money
prize- question upon the motion before the house,
after the noble lord at the head of the Government had
spoken, which precluded him from replying to the statements
the hon. baronet had made, instead of confining himself to
the proposition with which he commenced his speech.
The motion as amended, by striking out the word "ex-
traordinary" before " delay," was then agreed to,
FIRE INSURANCES.
Mr. IL B. SHERIDAN moved the following resolu-
tion : ~ That, in the opinion of this house, the duty now
chargeable upon fire insurances is excessive in amount,
that it prevents insurance, and should be reduced at the
earliest opportunity,"
Numerous petitions had been pre-
sented to the house from corporate bodies, merchants,
and others, in support of a change in the amount of duty
chargeable upon fire insurances; and that, together with
the numerous communications he had received in reference
to the subject, was his reason for bringing it under the no-
tice of the house. After explaining the causes which had
led to the delay in his not bringing it forward at an earlier
period, he said he was at a loss to understand on what
grounds his motion was to be resisted by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. Last session he obtained leave to introduce
a bill upon the subject, but he did not proceed with it be-
cause he understood it was to be taken up as an instruction
to her Majesty's Government that they should take up the
subject, and propose a reduction of the duty. He urged that
a reduction of duty would have the effect of increasing the
revenue by the great additional amount of property which
would be insured. He considered the duty a mistake. At
present the revenue derived from insurances amounted to
11 million, and represented one thousand millions of insur-
able property. He proposed that there should be a present
reduction of is per cent. on all insurable property, and at
the end of five years a further reduction of is, which Would
then leave the duty at Is, and there he proposed
to stop.
The annual increase of insurable property • • in this country
was calculated at £50,000 per annum, but it could only-
bo
said to be a minimum of the annual increase of the wealth of
the country. Taking the impulse which would be given to
insurance by the reduction of the duty, and add to it the
£50,000 annual increase during the first five years, it would
more than compensate the loss of the is. duty. co little
did he consider the loss (if any arose), that a little less
money spent in our Lost • • l
y experiments at Woolwich, and
also in the construction of iron ships, would more than cover
it, In suppext of h• • •
his proposition the hen, member referred

to the fact that 100 corporations and 70 chambers of com-
merce had petitioned in favour of the reduction, and con-
cluded by expressing a hope that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would eventually see his way to the total abolition
of the duty, which was as much a tax on prudence as an
encouragement to the opposite quality.
Mr. COX seconded the resolution.

Mr. HUBBARD supported the resolution, pointing out
that the Government took one-twentieth of the value of the
property to be insured before an insurance could be effected.
The tax being a tax upo,-, property, it ought to be uniformly
and equally levied; whereas, not only was it not levied upon
all property, but it was not even levied upon all property
of the same character. The owner of Tyburnia, Belgravia,
or of a whole county had no occasion to insure—he was his
own insurer. The man obliged to insure was the small
man, to whom a fire was ruin, It was evident, therefore,
that the tax was unequal in its incidents ; the poor were
taxed and the rich went flee. The hon. gentleman then pro-
ceeded to analyse the blue book, which had been crawn up
by Mr. Coode, and which had been circulated by the Go-
vernment amongst the members, and he affirmed that that
gentleman had attempted to perpetrate an arithmetical
fraud upon the House of Commons. In conclusion, he sug-
gested that a tax might be imposed on the export of iron,
which would enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
surrender the fire insurance duty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
although there were two questions brought under conside-
ration, the real and only one before the house was that,
whatever the merits or demerits of fire insuance might be,
the resolution of the hon. member was one which should be
sanctioned by the house. The hon. member was pleased
to quote a declaration of his on a former occasion, to the
effect that a reduction of this duty, like the reduction of
most other duties, would be followed by an increase of re-
venue ; and on this ground claimed his support of the mo-
tion. He was ready to admit that the question was one
pro per to be considered in relation to other questions, with
a view to diminution; but beyond this he could not travel
with the ton member. He had occasion recently to make
a computation of the wealth of the country, and,
although he took for his basis the surest data
he could find, yet he was almost afraid lest some of his cal-
culations would rise in judgment against him. But his
calculations looked contemptible by the side of the hon.
member's figures. A thousand millions sterling was the
hon. member's estimate of the wealth of the country.

Mr. SHERIDAN explained that what he said was, that
the estimate of a thousand millions had been made out, bui
he was willing to leave it at two hundred millions.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER resumed—
A thousand millions was at least five more than the first
computation, and he could not help saying that it was
a dangerous practice to quintuple estimates in debate.
With regard to the blue-book, about which so much
had been said by the hon. member for Buckingham
(Mr. Hubbard), he could only say that Mr. Coode had
been directed by Sir George Lewis to examine iato the
question, and without pledging himself to every statement
in the book, still he thought the report, upon the whole, had
put the question upon a more intelligible footing. But Mr.
Coode was entitled to some favour, for how could it be pos-
sible for the hon. member to find materials unless he had
ready to hand the 70 pages of this report ? (A laugh,) The
right hon. gentleman, after referring to the fact that the
duty on fire insurances kept pace with the increase in the
actual wealth of the country since 1816, and showing that
the insurance on farming stock, though not equal to that
upon other commodities, had greatly increased, entered into
the consideration of abstract resolutions, such as that now
proposed, and contended that it was a flagrant breach of the
duty of the house to give a preference to any particular tax
for reduction. The hon. member did not deny the object,
which was that the House of Commons should write down
this tax No. 1 for reduction on the first opportunity.
Against this course he should enter his protest ; for abstract
resolutions invariably interfered with the necessary financial
arrangements of the Government. The hon. gentleman
was known to have more than once made the observation
that private members were always, in the eyes of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, either too soon oritoo late. (Hear,
from Mr. Sheridan,) He claimed the right to say of certain
measures, that they were too soon or too late. There was
always a present between the past and the future, and when
the house was asked to pass an abstract resolution, they
should never forget the memorable instance of paper duty.
All abstract resolutions were bad, and a motion for reduction
of a particular tax should take place when other financial
questions were before the house. He should lay down
that proposition broadly, without beating about the bush
to move the previous question, and would oppose the mo-
tion, becouse he believed it was his duty to the country to
do so.
After a few words from Mr. HANKEY, and from Mr.
SHERIDAN in reply,
The house divided, The numbers were—
For the motion
Against it
Majority .. —36

(Cheers.)
The resolution was agreed to.
FELLOWSHIP PORTERS (LONDON.)
Mr. AYRTON moved for a select committee to inquire
into the treatment of the fellowship porters by the corpora-
tion of London. They complained that the £12,000 a year
wLiol, had hann pxaeted for years from their earnings to pro-
vide a relief fund when they became poor and distressed,
had been squandered by the Corporation cf London.
Sir J. SHELLEY seconded the motion.

Mr. CRAWFORD opposed the motion. The Corporation
had only exercised certain powers conferred on them by the
Legislature. They had no interest in the matter, and the
hon, and learned member for the Tower Hamlets had un-
duly exaggerated the alleged grievance. The Common
Council had inquired into the matter, but it appeared the
result was not satisfactory to a certain few of the fellow-
ship porters. Of 600 of them 400 had presented a petition
against the inquiry as unnecessary. The dissatisfied per-
sons wished to wind-up the concern and appropriate the
fund amongst themselves.
Mr. BRUCE said it was not a fit subject for inquiry by a
select committee, and opposed the motion. It was only a
dispute between the potters and the corporation, and the
most fitting place for investigation was in a court of justice.
Sir J. SHELLEY soid they had no other tribunal to
apply to than a select committee of that house. He hoped
the motion would be renewed next session.
The motion was then withdrawn.
BANDA AND KIRWEE PRIZE MONEY.

Sir S. NORTIICOTE moved that an humble address
be presented to her Majesty, praying that she would be
graciously pleased to give such directions in the matter of
the Banda and Kirwee booty or prize-money as her Majesty
might be advised by the law officers of the Crown or by
some competent judicial authority. He explained, in the
early part of the evening, when be referred to this matter,
that he had no desire to act discourteously towards the Go-
vernment. The booty arose out of the late mutiny, and tne
question was whether the column under Sir H. Whitelock
who took those towns was a part of Sir H. Rose's force,
and the latter entitled to share with the former.
Sir M. FARQUHAR seconded the motion.
Lord PALMERSTON said the noble lord the member
for Ling's Lynn (Lord Stanley) had already moved for
papers connected with the case, and he therefore suggested
that the house would wait to see those papers before com-
ing to a decision on the question. His own opinion, founded
upon Lord Clive's memorandum, was that the fund should
be divided between the two columns, inasmuch as he
did not consider General Whitelock's an independent
command.

Ultimately the motion was withdrawn, on the under-
standing that the papers would be shortly laid upon the
table, and that no action would be taken in the matter will'
the house had full opportunity for consideration and dis
cussion.