The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-17 00:00:00

let them know it, and let the people of Greece know it.
But if no application had been made to the King of Por-
tugal, then he contended a most unwarrantable liberty had
been taken with that personage, and a cruel deception and
mockery practised on Greece by proposing a man who was
but the mere idea of an English Minister. (Cheers.) There
was another repetition of these expectations. for Lord Rus-
sell, after stating that King Ferdinand would not accept
the throne, said that the Duke of Saxe Coburg might be
brought forward ; and the noble lord at the head of the Go-
ment informed the house that the Duke of Saxe Coburg
was willing to accept the throne. In the face of all these
statements he (Mr. Gregory) could only say, to use a vul-
gar word, that they were playing upon the Greek nation a
series of "sells." (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If the
Government had put forward those candidates without hav-
ing ascertained they would accept the throne, he could only
say that this course of diplomacy was reckless. (Rear,
hear.) It was reckless, because it made their diplomacy a
laughingstock, and because it weakened the influence which
it was important England should hold in Greece, and he for
one looked to a well governed and extended Greece as the
means most likely to lead eventually to the solution of the
Eastern question, and with this view he entirely concurred
in the offer of the cession of the lonian Islands. Mud
if there was a hitch about the lonian Islands it might
be settled in this way—that the lonien Islands were
offered to Greece when there was a chance that it would
be well governed ; hut they had been refused to Greece.
The hon. member then gave a vivid sketch of the Turkish
empire, showing how the Government and people were
corrupt and venal beyond all hope of improvement, and
stated that all Europe would rejoice when the day of the
final dissolution of the "sick man" had arrived. He had
not overdrawn the condition of Turkey ; and, with regard
to Russia, if she held Constantinople, the will of the Czar
would be the law of Europe. There was, then, but the
choice of two evils—either to maintain the Turkish empire,
or perhaps submit to a general war in Europe through Rus-
sian aggrandisement, and possibly hostilities with France.
Of the two evils, England, perhaps, had chosen the least,
Russia was not the country she was ten years ago (though
she had not forgotten her cunning or her intentions),
having been " crumpled up" by the Crimean war in every
one of the materials necessary to military strength, ships,
stores, men and money. (Hear, hear.) Poland was eating
like an ulcer into her heart, and there was not a letter re-
ceived from that country but announced that the Russian
Government was sitting on a volcano. The whole state of
things was changed, and we might now be able to do justice
to those nationalities who were endeavouring to emerge
from the prostration under which they had so long laboured
and to join the other nations of Europe in the onward
course of improvement and civilisation. (Hear, hear.)
He referred particularly to Servia and the Danubian pro-
vinces, and what applied to them applied with a tenfold
force to Greece. It was urged, with regard to Italy, that
an extension of territory was necessary for the security of
peace ; and the same, he contended, applied now to
Greece. It was impossible to expect a good and stable
Government either in Servia or the Danubian provinces,
so long as they were exposed to be the focus of intrigues ;
and they would continue to be so so long as England was
supposed to be in favour of those who were considered to
be their oppressors. The belief was that it was the strong
hand and strong influence of England that were keeping
these nationalities down, arid could they wonder that Ser-
via, Greece, and the Danubian Provinces had been hitherto
the focus of Russian intrigues, and, after what had been
done, be disposed to look in any quarter for assistance rather
than to England? (Hear.) The policy of England had
been the reverse of that of Russia, and the Greeks, per.
fectly aware of what they owed to Russia, hailed with en-
thusiasm and delight the manner in which their revolution
was received in England by men of all shades of opinion,
believing therefrom that the old spirit of her friends had
not died out. (Hear, hear,) Earl Russell's despatch was
worthy of every commendation from his just view of the
Greek cause ; and when it appeared in Greece it was
translated into Greek, and was worn in the pocket by the
inhabitants as a phylactery, or charm—a compliment not
often paid to the noble earl's despatches. (Hear, hear.)
The Greeks, he contended, were justified in looking for an
extension of territory, and England should endeavour, by
all means in her power, to secure it for them. In spite of all
the causes Greece had for her depression, there was hope for
confidence in her in comparison with Turkey. The Under-
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs heralded the approach
to power of the new Sultan of Turkey as the inauguration of a
perfectly happy and new state of things, yet not one of his
predictions had been verified. The Greeks had passed
through centuries of oppression, and it was not to be ex-
pected that they could speedily eradicate the evils of mis-
government ; but if they tested that country by the same
means that were generally resorted to to show the condition
of a country, they had every encouragement for looking
forward with confidence to the future Greece. Her popu-
lation had doubled within the last 30 years, and through-
out the whole of that country there was desire for informa-
tion. Old traditions were still cherished and stored up by
the Greeks. Commerce was alive in the Greek waters.
They monopolised the whole of the commerce in the Levant,
and Greek houses had been established in all parts of
Europe. England's policy should be to ensure to them
that they might reckon on her assistance in obtaining their
independence and self-government, and thather endeavours
would be used in obtaining for Greece a wise and enlight-
ened Prince to reign over them, who should not be fettered
in his views of increase of territory by any diplomatic ar-
rangements on the part of England. He trusted they would
ultimately succeed, not, however, by violence or conspiracy,
but by giving examples of good government. (Hear, hear.)
He concluded by seconding the motion of the right hon.
member for Honiton.
Mr. M. MILNES doubted if the hon. gentleman who
had just sat down had done good service to the Greeks by
mixing up with the question before the house the condi-
tion of Turkey. He referred to the manner in which the
Greeks had conducted themselves in this crisis, and ex-
pressed his regret that he could not give her Majesty's
Government his unqualified approval of what they had
done. He believed her Majesty's Government cordially
and sincerly sympathised with the Greeks ; but the
issue had not been so successful as their intentions. They
had shown deep interest with the Greeks, but they had not
treated them with due respect in leaving them in the hands
of diplomacy, which had not shown itself so wise as might
have been hoped. He could not agree in the necessity of
upholding the protocols which excluded the members of the
Royal families of Russia, France, and England from the
throne of Greece ; but, on the other hand, he entirely dis-
approved of the election of Prince Alfred. Greece required
a ruler of experience and intelligence, and therefore it would
have been a mistake to have placed so young a man as Prince
Alfred upon the throne. The placing Prince Alfred upon
the throne would merely have meant English protection for
Greece, whilst it was roost desirable that there should be no
foreign protection at all for Greece. Too much diplomacy
had been introduced into the matter, and the Greek people
had submitted to too much diplomacy. Her Majesty's Go-
vernment had not acted with much wisdom in proposing
candidate after candidate in the manner they did. (Hear.)
If diplomacy had been more reticent, perhaps diplomacy
would have been more successful. There was no doubt that
the failure to secure the elevation of the Duke of Saxe-
Coburg was a subject for profound regret. The Duke was
a prince of very original talents and of much courage; and
if it had been permitted him stilt to govern his German do-
minions by means of a regent, most probably his reign in
Greece would have been as successful as that of his distin-
guished uncle in Belgium. However, as there was no can-
didate who had received the full approval of the Powers,
he would recommend her Majesty's Government to give up
looking for candidates altogether. The future of Greece
did not appear to him to depend very much on the charac-
ter of the sovereign who at that moment might happen to
be elected, But why ehottld not Greece revert to her old
institutions, and if she succeeded in upholding republi-
can institutions for a time, she would conciliate the goad
ol:inion of Europe.
Mr. LAYARD—Sir, of the hon. gentlemen who have
spoken on this question no one agrees with the other,
though all seem to disagree with the feeling of her Majesty's
Government, except my hon. friend the member for Galway.
dates.
I am desirous of calling the attention of the house to
I think dates have been somewhat overlooked, especially by
my hon. friend the member for Honiton. To judge from
what fell from my hon. friend it might be supposed that her
Majesty's Government had not throughout the whole of
those events in Greece held the same language. He says we
have treated the Greeks unjustly and ungenerously, that we
have misled them, that their present difficulties are a con-
sequence of that line of policy, and that if those difficulties
should increase and disaster ensue we shall be responsible.
sow, I think that by referring to dates I shall be able to
show that my hon. friend's charge is an unjust one. On the
27th October the news of the revolution in Greece was tele-
eraphed to us, and there was not the slightest idea then
that an English prince would be elected to the throne. Lord
Russell did that which he was bound to do ; he stated that
the English Government was not desirous of intervening in
the affairs of Greece, that they admitted the Greeks had a
full right to change their government, and that all England
inc,ul to do was to adhere to her treaty engagements and to
inif,t on other Powers doing the same. Shortly afterwards
a runic ur reached England that the Greeks were likely to
the Lord Russell at once
elect Prince Alfred fors athrieeitrt
King,to
telegraphed to Mr.effect that that the future
family
King of Greece could neotbe
wahmieehmhabenrd
been
nrerartiinegs
f any of the three countriesth
the time of the first ravolution,Tthhee
protocol drawn up at
binding,
i
opinion of the French Government was asked, and, as will
be seen at page 21 of these
papers, they stated that they
took the same view of the protocol as we did.
. They
consi-
dered the engagement then entered into to
they meant to adhere to it. The Russian Government were
also asked for their views, and they answered that they
adhered to the views expressed in the protocol, but that
they insisted upon the article of the Greek Constitution
which made it necessary that the next King of Greece
should be of the orthodox faith. This answer excited some
suspicion in the minds of her Majesty's Government, seeing
that there was no princes coming within that definition
except the princes of the Imperial House of Russia. It was
thought necessary to ascertain the views of the Russian Go-
tie rnntent still more fully, and we asked this distinct question
and required to it a categorical answer—Does the Russian
Government consider the Duke of Leuchtenberg to be in-
cluded in that protocol ? Originally the duke was not a

member of the Imperial family ; but by a special Ukase he
Was made a member of it, under the title of Prince Roman-
offsky. To'this question we got at first an equivocal answer,
and it was some time before we could get an assurance frau
' them that the Duke of Leuchtenberg was included in the
protocol. The exchange of notes in which that assurance is
conveyed only took place on the 4th of December. Any hon.
gentleman Who will read the reasons which Lord Russell
gave for arriving at a complete understanding with Eassia
as to the persons included in that protocol will come to the
conclusion, I think, that my noble friend was perfectly right
in what he did. Prince Alfred stood in two separate and
distinct conditions in regard to the Greeks. We had stated
that for certain reasons he Could not accept the Crown of
Greece. Those were great reasons of State; they were
fully understood and appreciated by the country at large,
and they received the support of the entire press of the
country. Everybody felt that it was not desirable that a
prince of the English blood so nearly related to the Queen
should accept the throne of Greece. But not only Prince
Alfred, but every other prince of the blood, would be ex-
cluded from the throne by the protocol, and Lerd Russell
thus states his reasons for coming to an understanding with
the Russian Government before proceeding further :
" The line of Great Britain upon this question has been
clear and simple. She might bind herself by a protocol or a
declaration by which the other two protecting Powers
should be equally bound; or she might, for the sake of
British interests, refuse to entangle herself in the politics
of Greece, and to separate from her own Royal family a
prince so near in the order of succession to the Crown. But
as her Majesty's Government considered the Duke of
Leuchtenberg as a prince of the Imperial family of Russia,
they could not declare themselves to be bound by the pro-
tocol of 1830, without knowing what that protocol meant.
If it was meant that Prince Alfred should be bound to re-
fuse, and Prince Romanoffsky free to accept, the Crown of
Greece, that would have been in the eyes of her Majesty's
Government a position of inferiority and inequality which
Great Britain could not accept."

That reasoning is perfectly conclusive. Lord Russell did
not at any time change his language on this subject. If
the hon. gentleman will look through the papers he will see
that from the beginning in all his communications with the
Russian Government, with the French Government, and
with M. Tricoupi, Lord Russell distinctly stated that
Prince Alfred could not accept the Crown of Greece. My
hon. friend opposite has mixed up two different things.
Lord Russell at one time did give instructions to Mr. Scar-
lett not to interfere in the elections. The Greeks had a
perfect right if they chose to elect Prince Alfred, after
being solemnly warned, as they were warned, that he could
not accept the Crown, and we certainly should not have
been justified in attempting to prevent them. But suppose
we had interfered in the election before the Russian Go-
vernment had declared their views about the protocol.
We know that there were intrigues going on in Greece—
I won't say that they were intrigues prompted by the
Russian Government—but there were intrigues. (Hear.)
If we had withdrawn Prince Alfred, the Greeks might
have considered themselves free to elect the Duke
of Leuchtenberg ; and Russia, not having admitted
the validity of his exclusion by the protocol, might have
turned round and said, "You may have withdrawn
your Prince Alfred, but we do not see any reason why we
should withdraw the Duke of Leuchtenberg, and we insist
on his election." There was no concealment in the policy of
England, and it will be seen in the papers that Lord Napier
was instructed by Lord Russell to state distinctly to Prince
Gortschakoff that we should consider it our duty to do all
we could to oppose the election of the Duke of Leuchten-
berg. We had good reasons for doing so. I believe the
policy of her Majesty's Government was a wise policy, and
I have not the least doubt that the election of the Duke of
Leuchtenberg would have been as mischievous to Greece as
to Europe. Them were other reasons, also, for not inter-
vening. We were told by persons well acquainted with
Greece that if any attempt were made to check the general
unanimous feeling in favour of Prince Alfred mischief might
occur; that Greece had been left suddenly in a state of great
disorder, and that the.only chance of restoring order was by
sueh a candidate as Prince Alfred being put forward. My
hon. friend read a long list of candidates, but he did not
read the number of votes given for them. Very few votes,
in fact, were given for any one but Prince Alfred, and the
election was practically unanimous. I hope the few words
I have said will make it clear to the house that the conduct
of the Government has been perfectly straightforward. We
felt the deepest interest in Greece, but it was not for us to
interfere with them in the choice of a Government. They
had a perfect right to change their Government as they
chose. We were bound by solemn treaties to other parties,
and it was our duty to ascertain what view was taken of
those engagements by the ether contracting parties. My
hon. friend the member for Galway amused himself by
making some observations in reference to Mr. Elliot, whose
position he entirely mistakes, and who, he thinks, on the
strength of his spelling his name with two " l's" and one
"t," must be a near connexion of Lord Russell. If he be,
I can only say he is a very discouraging example of the
benefit of being related to the head of the Foreign-office ;
for when he was comfortably settled at Naples he was
suddenly deprived of his position there, and has since
remained unemployed in his profession. He had
been previously in Greece, and when it became necessary to
send a special mission to Greece, as he was not employed in
any service, he was chosen for it. Had another diplomatist
been taken from some other post, and Mr. Elliot put in his
place, my hon. friend might have had some ground for
blaming the Government for putting him into a permanent
appointment, and not a temporary one. It is said that we
deceived the Greeks by holding out other candidates. But,
if you look at the language used by her Majesty's Govern •
merit, you will see that we always avowed that we did not
intend to impose any candidate upon the Greeks. The King
of Portugal was mentioned. The administration of the
affairs of Portugal had been such that, if the King of Por-
tugal had thought fit to accept the office, a more eligible
candidate for the crown of Greece could not be found, and
her Majesty's Government merely recommended him to the
Greeks upon that ground. The next candidate was the
Duke of Saxe-Cobourg. It is well known that he is a wise
and liberal prince, and I believe if the Greeks had had the
good fortune to obtain him for their King they would be
now in a different position. Her Majesty's Government re-
commended him, but unexpected difficulties arose, and he
declined. (Hear, hear.) I should have limited myself to
these remarks if observations had not fallen from hon. mem-
bers to which it is very desirable a reply should be given.
The policy of her Majesty's Government in the East has of
late been very much misunderstood and very deliberately
misrepresented. Her Majesty's policy in Greece is a part
and parcel of her policy in the East. I believe that the
necessity for an extension of territory is greatly exagge-
rated. The only parts inhabited entirely by Greeks are
Thessaly and part of Epirus. They are mountainous
districts, and I believe would not in any way add to the
strength and wealth of Greece. (Hear, hear.) The
Greeks have been diverted from that which would have
really contributed to their welfare and happiness by the cry
after an extension of territory in Turkey. Their commerce
is more the commerce of brokers. They have never had any
really great commercial houses. I grant that they have
driven the English merchants out of the East, but how has
that happened ? The English merchant, under the Levant
Company, and his successor was one of those merchant
princes of whom we hear people often speak. He lived in
great luxury. He had horses and carriages. He indulged
in great hospitality. To live in that way ho had to make a
great deal of money, and it was done by selling his goods
at enhanced prices. The Greek who succeeded him lived

on olives and cuttlefish. He slept on a carpet in his recep-
tion room. He indulged in no luxury. He devoted his whole

intelligence and ability to trade, and very great, I admit,

are the intelligence and enterprise of the Greeks. The con.
sequence was that they were able to undersell the great
English merchants, and one after another they went. Bul

by selling English goods at a less price they have very much
increased the English trade, so that, undoubtedly, we are
greatly indebted to the Greeks. (Hear.) Greece is remark-
ably well calculated for a race of enterprising people. Tho
people have maritime tastes, and the country is full of the
finest harbours, but all their prospects have been destroyed
by the fatal influence of creed. They have neglected the re-
sources which they possessed. The consequences have been
disorders, extravagant expenditure, large establishments,
and a Chamber fallen into contempt. Bankruptcy super-
vened. All public men went down in public estima-
tion, and the same fate followed the King and
Queen. (Hear.) We have been constantly advising
them to give up that fatal policy, and devote their atten-
tion to the improvement of the country. The answer has
been, 44 You are enemies to the Christians—you are
friends to the Turks." I believe the advice which was
given was sound, and that if it had been taken the Greeks
would not have been in the condition in which they now
are. No country in Europe was in such an admirable posi-
tion as Greece. No one could touch her, for she was gua-
ranted by the European Powers. She needed no army and
no diplomacy. And, with regard to Turkey, I defy any one
to say that during the connexion of Turkey and Greece

Turkey has ever violated any of her stipulations with Greece,

If there have been violations of treaties they have systema.

tically been by the Greeks and not by the Turks. (Hear.)
Hon. gentlemen say that we held out the lonian Islands
after we had disappointed them with the Prince. Two or
three years ago I had the honour to take part in a debate

from the Opposition side of the house, and the views which
I expressed then I maintain now. Uwe had gtven to Greece
the lonian Islands at a time when the policy of Greece was

so aggressive it would have been fatal to British policy in
the East. We have made it a condition that Greece must

give up her aggressive views if she ex ects this Government
to cede to her the lonian Islands. I remember that I said
the time might come when it would be equally advantage-
ous to this country and to Greece for this country to cede
the lonian islands, and I hope and trust that time will
very shortly arrive. (Hear.) The hon. member for Galway
further touched on our policy in the East, and it is of the
greatest importance there should be clear views as to what
that policy really is. The worn out cry has been raised that
the Turks look to London rather than to Constantinople.
remember M. Thiers on one occasion saying, " I am going
to give you a lecture on geography," I will not venture
to lecture the house, but I wish to draw attention to three
or four facts. Of what is Turkey composed ? There are
the Danubian Principalities, under the suzerainty of the
Porte, inhabited by a Christian population, with their in-
dependence guaranteed by the European powers,
SO that
Turkey has only to receive the annual tribute. You have
Servia, with rights not so extensive, inhabited by a puze