The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-19 00:00:00

should be heard. He really thought he had an usque ad
neuseam, said this was not his opinion, but that he offered
to prove it by evidence. That was the whole burden
of his song. flow could any person argue in favour of
receiving evidence more strongly than by saying bore
are important facts which bear on the question, which are
material to the question, which go to decide the question
—they are not impossible of proof—you admit the mate-
riality of them, you admit the truth but won't allow me to
prove the truth.—Hear, hear.) That was the most com-
plete non sequitur he ever heard. But, said his Noble
Friend, we all agree more or less as to the facts
but not as to the conclusions. But the Noble Duke, and
the Noble Viscount at another part of his speech, when
he had forgotten the first part--(Laughter)—every ono of
them denied the facts on which lie relied. There was a
no less difference than this. He (Lord B.) said they
could not import from Dantzic under 465. or 47a. Now
that was very important. His Noble Friend opposite said,
that he was ready to prove that not to be the case. He
(Lord B.) was ready to prove that he was right. Now,
said the Noble Viscount behind him ( Lord Mebourne),
you are at issue upon an important fact decisive of the
question. And what was the conclusion to which the
Noble Viscount vaulted in his buoyent manner.--(Laugh-
ter). Why, that they should not be allowed to examine
witnesses on one side or the other, but make the "aye"
of one side pair off with the " no" of the other.
( Laughter). Now his ( Lord B.'s) statement eras an
average of seven years at Dantzic, and his witnesses were
ready to prove that on that average wheat could not be
bought at Dantzic for less than 36i., nor be brought here
for less than Ios. The Noble Duke said that it would not
do to hear evidence at the bar; but that it was not custo-
mary in this House. He never heard it denied that this
House was competent to call evidence before it to satisfy
itself upon any subject. The Noble Duke said, and their
Lordships were excessively merry, and he was sorry that
he had interrupted their pleasantry, that it was neither
more nor less than a gambling traffic, and that a person
wanted to make 40 per cent. profit, whereas in a wholesome
trade they would be satisfied with a moderate profit. Then
the Noble Duke said it must have been ,a very long
voyage, otherwise the transaction could not have happened;
and then their Lordships were delighted. It was a Voyage
of ten days, and as the average was taken every week, one
week was enough to make it come down. If they doubted
these facts, he was ready with evidences to prove them at
the bar of the House. The Noble Viscount said that two
lines had been taken, and that it was very difficult to steer
between them. He wished to hear the whole matter
fairly, but he feared it's lasting too long, and interrupting
the business of the House. What business ? What
House ? Where they in the House of Commons ? Why,
they bad no business here, except the business of going to
their dinners, for he never saw any business done in this
House until the last week" of the Session.—( Laughter.)
Then the Noble Viscount came to what he called the
delicate part of the question. The Noble Viscount said that
he was surprised that he ( Lord Broughani) bad lost all
recollection of the use of open questions, and the
difficulty of keeping together a Government, and upon
that he was very merry, and their Lordships joined him in his
pleasantry. He (Lord B.) did not remember any parti-
cular difficulties to which the Noble Viscount had alluded,
and which had made him so merry. The Noble Viscount
said that he (Lord B.) knew what difficulties there were.
Now he (Lord B.) professed that he did not, that he had
not the remotest guess—he could not fancy or divine
what it was; but then he knew that his Noble Friend on
the Bench opposite was most correct in stating, upon a
late occasion, there was no open question made of the
Corn laws, for he never heard it said, until it was re-
peated elsewhere, that the Corn-laws had been made an
open question. He felt it disagreeable not to take
the part which he wished to take, and complained
to one or two of his colleagues, for his opinions
bad been very strong on the subject. Not one
word did he say, precisely because he thought it was
not an open question. Ile never knew to this hour that it
was open. He could not tax his memory with any such
thing as an open question. He denied that there was any.
It was indeed possible—indeed they had seen the practice
—that one Minister might be at one side of an open ques-
tion, and ano'her at the other, and yet that both should
keep together.--( Hear ) The Noble Viscount had said
a good deal about the difficulty of keeping Governments
together. Now, since he (Lord Brougham) had ceased
to be connected with Governments, he had seen much more
of its difficulty.—( Laughter.) There were various acts
and schemes for keeping a Government together. One
way was to turn out one Member to keep the rest in ; he
believed that had recently been practised in a certain
Cabinet, which he should not name.—(Laughter and
" Hear.") Another plan was, for all the Members to
cling together like the bundle of rods in the fable, that
the weakness of one might be helped by the strength of the
others. All these systems he had learned since he had
ceased to be connected with a Government, and the result
of his observation had induced him rather to envy the twig
that had left the bundle than any one of those that yet were
linked in connexion. He admitted that much had been
done by the Government upon the reservation of open
questions. He agreed with the Noble Viscount that
there was a great excuse in respect of the Catholic
Question. for here the great object was to carry the war to
a successful termination. Still, if this question had been
brought to a crisis in 1814 or 1816, and had been settled
one way or another, he thought it would have
been infinitely better for the question itself and for
the people of England, and for the country in general.
In speaking on one point the Noble Lord looked exceed-
ingly sly—indeed he ( Lord Brougham) had never seen
him look so sly—(Laughter)—he had looked unutterable
things; but his words, after all, were as but a dull tune
when the sweetness of his countenance was regarded.
He must repeat, that the conduct of the Government of
the day, in leaving the Catholic question an open one, was
most disgraceful, although he ( Lord Brougham) was never.
theless most grateful for the support he had received from
one part of the Government, as it was better to have half
with him than the whole against him. Still be then se-
verely censured the practice of one member of a Ministry
voting black what a colleague voted white—of one rising
up in his place to contradict the arguments which another
had advanced. It would have been much more
honest—more manly and more becoming for them
to have acted all upon one side.—(hear, hear.)
He ( Lerdßrougham) thought after this statement it would
be admitted that all the pleasantry which his Noble Friend
had indulged in at his expense, ought to have been paid for
out of some other person's pocket.—( Laughter.) Nothing
could be more delusive than the statement of the Noble
Viscount that he (Lord Brougham) had argued that the
repeal of the Corn-laws would only have the effect of re-
ducing the poor man's bread tax to the amount of Is. per
quarter per year for each member of a family. Now he had
said that it would go much farther, but he assumed the re-
duction at only Is. knowing that the fears of the farmer
and the hopes of the manufacturer as to the effects of a re-
peel were exaggerated. He bad even referred to a reduc-
tion of 7s.—but even a reduction of only is. would be a
great deal, as this was a tax paid by every one who
ate bread. As for the working classes, his Noble
Friend had spoken in an honest and sincere manner ; and
his Noble Friend opposite had done himself honour in
stating that the interests of that body should be the princi-
pal object in discussing this question. He thought it was
an exaggeration to state that wages would be reduced to so
great an event by the repeal of the Corn laws, for wages
were not regulated by provisions, but the relation between
the demand for labour anal the supply. No doubt pro-
visions had their effect upon the value of labour, but they
operated in a roundabout manner for an abundance of them
increased population, and thus diminished the price of la-
bour. But even if wages should be reduced the labourer
would find abundant compensation in having commodities so
cheap, even if an increase of the population were to follow.
It was a great delusion to' say that the workmen were not
interested
in as much, and in the longrun perhaps more
in the repeal of the Corn-laws than the masters.
Lords (concluded the Noble and Learned Lord) these
are my reasons, these are my explanations. If you refused
to hear evidence, admitting the facts proposed to be prohy. ,
I have nothing to do but to move my.resolu tions, w eh
must then of course be assented to. But if my motion
is this night rejected on the pretexts, I cannot call them
reasons, which have been urged, I must consider
with my Noble Friends who think with me, the
course to be hereafter adopted. The Noble Duke (Wel-
lington) has discussed the subject. with g ea.t calm-
ness and gravity, and the Noble Viscount (Mefilbourne)
has expressed his sentiments with candour and rmne.ssii
I have also been complimented on the fairness with which
I have brought forward the question. It would have been
strange were it otherwise; for I have no interest ay
ever—no feeling but the desire to do my duty. A
must say that he will utter a gross falsehood who
.shall
declare that your Lordships considered the subject
with anything like levity, or trifling. or indifference;
or that you have not given it a patient
hearing. I wish your Lordships' opinions had been other-
wise. But I have said all I can in favour of my proposi-
tion, I have heard no good reason against it ; and whether
I divide the House must depend upon your Lotdshipe.—
(Cries of question.)
The question was then put, and the " non-contents"
declared to have it. Their Lordships instantly separated.