The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-24 00:00:00

DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.

The Debate on this subject was then resumed.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he felt that some apology was
due to the House for having been one of the persons who
tsttaoted this debate beyond the third evening ; but he
tl an aPebgy and a strong one, in the sense of the duty
be owed his constituents, and in the conviction that the
Subject ihould not be disposed of without their being made
siollainted With the great and unusual distress of the people
Of Ireland. The members of that kingdom were more
than One.rseventh of the whole of the }louse; but yet, with
the
eze,eption of the Hon. Member for Louth (Mr. L.
r os
te.‘), not one of them had said a word on the question.
He avowed that, as he felt it his duty, so he should make
it his object to support one of the motions for inquiry. A
plain case had been made out for inquiry. Although he
thought that the original metion was the more dignified
and useful, yet, if any good reason appeared for preferring
the amendment, lie was prepared to vote for that. His
reasons for supporting inquiry were these :—lt was gene-
rally admitted that there was very great distress in Eng-
land. That fact had been admitted by the Right Hon.
secretary of State ; and it was impossible to controvert it,
unless it could be proved that the petitions, greater in
number *than had ever before been presented to the House,
were -a mass of misrepresentation. It was also alleged that
them was distress in Scotland ; not so great as in England
—but still Of awful magnitude. That there was distress in
Ireland was equallyindisputable. Early in the Session he had
made thatostatetnent. It had not since been contradicted ;
but,osethe contrary, had been confirmed. He had declared that
there was great distress in Dublin, in Cork, and in Bandon ;
and to these he was sorry to say that he was now able to
add, in Drogheda, in Newry, and in Kilkenny. He had
declared, and the declaration was but too well established,
that in Ireland hundreds and thousands of the people
Were in a state of starvation. The entire agri-
cultural population of Ireland (and in Ireland the
Population was almost solely agricultural) was in the
deepest distr eta ; except in those spots in which the
Wheat firrraers had more than usually good crops last year.
The,l condition of the graaieg counties of Ireland was such
''`at 'Attie
than purchased a twelvemonth age, were sold for
_
„. they cost, so that all the expethr.e2Oftheir food for
Jut period was sacrificed. The only Ireah Member who
had spoken in this discussion was the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Louth, who had been pleased to say that although
in though
in particular instances he (Mr. O'Connell) was right in
his statement of distress in Ireland, yet that the general
rule was the other way. He (Mr. O'Connell) had, how-
ever, waited in vain to hear some proofs of this assertion.
The Right Hon..- Gentleman had been seeking for informa-
tion with respect-to the alleged distress ia Ireland. Now
.there were two Classes of persons who sought for informa-
tion. The one who sought where it was to he found, and
the other who sought for where it was not to be found.
The -Right Hon. Gentleman ranked among the latter.
He inquired respecting the condition of the people from
the Receivers of the Court of Chancery. Now it was
well known that in the collection of rents those receivers
received only one half-year-within the other. At the time,
therefore, at which the Right Hon. Gentleman made his
inquiry, they were only receiving the rents for May ; and
consequently could know nothing with respect to the abi-
lity of the tenants to pay the rent which had subsequently
become due. They might fairly say, therefore, that
there was then no arrear. But the inference which he
drew from that circumstance was the reverse of that
drawn from it by the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then talked of something which he called
prosperity at Belfast. It turned out, however, that this
summed prosperity was founded on the fact that some
Persons in the county of Lowth were earning the enormous
sum of four shillings a-week by weaving for the Belfast
Inanufaeturers. What was the case, however, at Drogheda,
and at Newry? From Drogheda he (Mr. O'Connell) had
Presented a petition, declaring that out of 16,000 persons,
8,000 were destitute of the means of subsistence. In
Newry also, the distress was, to his knowledge, extensive.
rt Was thus clear, that there was great distress in England
s-that there was great distress in Ireland-4111E14W veils
great distress in Scotlaie= He called "Ornqlft.alliloll
inquire into that distress:'" He must not'A !fin! I '
Committee had been already appointed:',*!POAW
into the state of Ireland. The Committee appoit!leWh.§
Only to inquire into the condition of the
not to investigate the general distress-of thel,e;o, not
to ascertain how the property of the industrio, IMAes had
been taken from them by an enhancement of the value of
the currency, and by other causes. The character of the
present distress in Ireland was this :—On former occa-
sions, when the artisans and manufacturers of that country
were distressed, and expecially when that sickly exotic, the
silk manufacturer, was distressed, abundant funds were
collected by public benevolence for the purpose of afford-
ing relief. In the present year, however, instead of as
formerly collecting fifteen, sixteen, or twenty thousand
pounds in Dublin, the whole sum collected was 3,500/.,
of which the Lord Lieutenant had contributed 500/. This
was .a proof that the distress was of a character which
stopped the sources of charity, and prevented the
benevolent from rendering their benevolence available.
This was a new feature in the state of Ireland. Under
all these circumstances, the people had a right to ask
the House to endeavour to relieve them. For what pur-
pose were they sent there ? Not merely to vote large sums
of money for the maintenance of our army and navy. If
they were unable to inquire into the distresses of the peo-
ple, why did they not. abdicate a post to which they ac-
knowledged themselves incompetent ? It was a confession
of their deficiency either in intellect or in honesty. Now
he by no means wished to calumniate the House. He
was sure that no party in that House would abstain from
affording relief to the people if they knew how to afford
it- He was sure that neither those who delighted in the
name of Whigs, nor those who thought themselves ho-
noured by the appellation of Tories, nor the small and sa-
cred band of Radical Reformers—(A laugh)—to which
he boasted of belonging, were deficient in inclination to
relieve distress. But was it not proper that an inquiry
should be entered into to ascertain how far that general
inclination could be gratified. If it were impossible to
relieve the people, at least let them not be disappointed
of the.hoped-for inquiry. The refusal to enter into an
inquiry into the distresses of the people afforded a strik-
ing contrast to the manner iu which the French Par-
liament had recently behaved under similar circum-
stances. In their answer to the Speech with which the
Xing opened the Sessions, that illustrious assembly,
Which had since had the honour of being separated be-
cause it had,declared its determination to vindicate its in-
dependence-.-(gear, hear, hear)—thus expressed itself :
" The reduction of the public revenue which your Ma-
jesty has announced is a symptom of an afflicting nature;
we shall do all in our power to investigate the cause of
the distress which it announces.”—(Hear, bear, hear.)—
This was a specimen of the real representation of the
people which existed in France; a representation con-
nected with no oligarchy—with none of those higher,
those towering stems, which were secure from the storms
that blew OR the humble shrub and withered it in its low-
liness. But should it be said that the gentlemen of Eng-
land, of Ireland, and of Scotland were not equally willing
to inquire what relief could he given to the distressed po-
pnlation of those countries? Would they abstain from all
efforts, and wait patiently on the strand until the tide
shoild come in and float the grounded vessels? Would
they leave that to chance which ought to be subjected to
the dominion of an over-ruling intelligence? The propo-
sition
the first for inquiry had been resisted on various grounds. In
place, the Vice-President of the Board dof Trade
i 4 that en
Governor had already afforded the people relief
y taking
off taxation. He (Mr. O'Connell) could not
however, concur in the opinion of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that sueL.,
_was
of taxes were . a sufficient relief. Three millions
Iffiataken off the people of England ; but
then they Were not to be taken off until October. It was
an odd species of relief to tell the sufferers that if they sur-
vbeievedr
cuntil the month of October, they should then drink
heap. So much for thepeople of England ; but
what was to be said to the people of Ireland ? From the
taxationi of the, people of Ireland the Chancellor of the
leatherxcur had taken off 30 or 40,000/. in the shape of
f„. duty. It was well done; and as far as it went
Righ""e relolemnell) was_ grateful for it. But then the
Gentleman had added 110,000/. on stamps,
and 20,000/., or goo
on spirits. If, therefore,
the Vice-President of ;110e0BLoard of Trade's principle, that
to diminish the taxatioinish their distressn
, of the people of England was to
that to increase the tour a good
to increase their distress. • onTioif principle, it followed
the people of Ireland was
impracticable to bear their e people of Ireland found it
yteseintt weight of distress ; and
to make them go, more easfl
them carry double.—(n.
..ear.)wasArro arnstirdabtole 'tan Hie countrymen were said to be of sucha happy tempera-

meat, that they laughed at distress ; the Right
Gentleman seemed determined that they should have
enough to laugh at. The lion. Member for Newark,
whose talents he respected, and whom he was sorry to
hear ridiculed by an Hon. Gentleman opposite—( Hear).—
had denounced the opinions of the Right Hon. Gentleman
on that subject. He (Mr. O'Connell) would not use so
strong a word as 'denounce; hut he would proclaim that
to diminish the distress of England by diminishing the
taxation, while we increased the distress of Ireland by in-
creasing the taxation, was a measure of which the Irish
people bad just cause loudly to complain. It bad been
said in that House that Ireland was not taxed so much as
she ought to be, in proportion to England. That he
denied. Calculating the rental of both countries, he main-
tained that Ireland, even in paying the four millions which
she did pay, was burdened with more than her proportion.
Let it be recollected that from four to seven millions of
her rental were sl:ent out of the country. Let it be re-
collected that she was taxed above a million annually by
Grand Jury Presentments and Vestry Cesses. Did he
want to abolish taxation in Ireland ? No. What he
wanted was inquiry. And was he to be refused, lest the
result of that inquiry might be unpleasant to this country,
because it would be salutary to Ireland? The principal
opposition which the motion had met with was from the
Secretary of State for the Home Department. His speech
was luminous—the talents of the Right Hon. Gentleman
of course rendered it so; but it was Aso humorous. The
misery of Ireland had been considered a fit subject for
mirth in that House. The spectacle had been presented
at one and the same time of perishing artisans and labourers,
a facetious Privy Councillor, and a laughing Legislature.
—(Herr.) For his own part, that which entertained
others filled him with sorrow. He should have preferred
hearing the people told that they should not receive relief,
and even that no inquiry should be made into the cause of
their distress, in the sepulchral tones of the undertaker,
rather than with a merriment of manner fit for another
stage. After a triumphant reply on the part of the Right
Hon. Secretary of State to the Hon. Member for Liverpool,
he placed the objections to the motion on two grounds
—grounds, indeed, which had been over and over
again repeated in the course of the debate. The first
was, the fear lest the inquiry might be suffered to un-
settle the principles of free trade; the second was, the
fear lest it should compromise the eternal fixity of the
currency. For his part, he (Mr. O'Connell) thought
that we had not enough of either of these matters;
that we had not enough of free trade, and that we had
not enough of currency. The Vice President of the
Board of Trade, in advocating the principles of free trade,
had said very justly that it was the interest of every
country to buy wherever it could obtain a commodity at
the cheapest rate. True. But why did the Right
Hon. Gentleman forget corn ? What article was there
which it was so desirable the people should buy
cheaply as bread ? To talk of the principles of free
trade, and to maintain the corn laws, was absurd and
inconsistent. What right had the Right Hon. Gentleman
to tax the Hon. Member for Newark with inconsistency,
when he himself advocated the principles of free trade ;
yet, before lie sat down, interpose his shield before the
corn laws ?—(Hear, hear.)—Then came a Gallant Officer,
who talked of the advantages of low wages and low prices.
But to be advantageous they must be universal. Let the
Gallant Officer repair to the levee-room of an Illustrious
Field Marshal in full pay, and talk to him of the advantage
of low wages.—( Hear, hear.)—lt was a little too much
to tell the poor of the advantages of low wages, when
they were starving upon them. The Gallant Officer
might find that the commendation of low wages was not
always so safe a doctrine as it was in the House of Com-
mons. When that Gallant Officer led his columns against
the enemy, no man could do his duty more bravely or
better. But if the Gallant Officer were to draw up his
regiment in a hollow square, and talk to the soldiers of
the advantages of low wages, it was not very likely that
he would produce conviction, but it was very likely that
lie would produce a mutiny.—(Hear, hear, hear, and a
laugh.)—The people would feel deeply and long any
haughty refusal to go into an inquiry with a view to
ascertain how far it might be practicable to relieve them.
With respect-to free trade, therefore, it appeared that if
there was any difference between himselfand the oppOnents
of the motion, it was that they thought that those princi-
ples had been carried far enough, and that he did not think
so. He pressed those principles as a reason for inquiry.
He wished it to be ascertained whether an extension of the
principles of free trade might not alleviate the distress of
the people. Then it was said that the currency was fixed
and settled, and could not be altered. He utterly denied
that the currency was settled. In fact, it was 'anything
but settled. There was one kind of currency in England,
another kind in Scotland, and a third kind in Ireland.
iThere was one banking system in England, another
in: Scotland, and a third -in- Ireland. With • these
etithevariations, to tell the people that the currency was
fixed and settled, was to tell them that at which they
would laugh. It might be right that the currency should
be fixed ; but in order to fix it they ought to go into an
inquiry to ascertain which of the three systems was the
best. Let him not be accused of a disposition to run into
a wilderness of worthless rags : he wished for no such
thing. But he called on the House to deliberate on the
present state of the currency. Some Honourable Gentlemen
had talked of the spoliation which would ensue, if, after
eleven years, an alteration were made in all the bargains
concluded in that time, by introducing a change in the
circulating medium. The reasoning of these Honourable
Gentlemen was good, but their premises were false. With
equal justice might it be asserted,sby other Hon. Gentle-
men with reference to England and Scotland, as he as-
serted, with reference to Ireland, that the change of a paper
currency into a gold currency had violated all the contracts
which had been made since 1797,-as all those contracts had
been made in a paper currency. Since he had been in that
House, he bad several times heard the middlemen in Ire-
land traduced. He was quite prepared, however, to stand
up in their defence. They mitigated the evils of absen-
teeism ; they gave employment to the labouring poor. In
the year 1798 they formed the -yeomanry cavalry of Ire-
land, and prevented the Revolution of France from spread-
ing to that country. If it had so spread, what he would
ask, would now have been the value of the English funds
and of English property ? What was the consequence to
those individuals of the change which had taken place in
the currency ? That they, the most industrious members
of the community, who had laid out their property in va-
rious ways for the improvement of the land, were robbed
and deprived of the advantages to which they were enti-
tled, which advantages were given to persons who were
not entitled to them. By that change in the currency, the
clergy (whose emoluments were settled by no fewer than
five Tithe Composition Acts) were in many cases in Ire-
land receiving a fifth where they ought only to receive a
tenth. The difficulties of what was called equitable ad-
justment had, he thought, been exaggerated ; at least, he
denied that in Ireland the complication which prevented
it Wes as great as had been supposed. He was thoroughly
convinced that much misery had been occasioned in Ire-
land by the change which had already taken place ; and it
was surely desirable to inquire whether that misery might
not be alleviated by another change. Let the first instruction
to the Committee be to report upon the banking system.
The country was told that the recent law on the currency
would be useful to future generations, though it inflicted
present evils.; but, for his part, he must confess that he
disliked these experiments upon human nature. What
was this but the Jacobinical arguments used in the French
Revolution—what signified 20,000 heads, or making
20,000 widows and orphane, if the sacrifice had the
prospect of making a millenium for the next generation ?
All he argued for was inquiry, and no changes that were
not the result of mature deliberation. The country were
not to be told that Government had nothing to give them
but speeches for three or four nights, the objects of which
were to delude them like children.

Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN explained.
Mr. O'CONNELL explained.

Lord LEVESON GOWER had not intended to take
any part in this discussion, but statements had teen made
which he found it necessary to contradict. He admitted
the existence of severe distress in this country and in Ire-
land. But there was at this moment a Committee sitting
up stairs upon the subject of this distress, at the head of
which was the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. Rice.)
The whole question of inquiry was therefore virtually and
actually disposed of. Were they to compare the present
state of Ireland with that of any former period, it would
be found that it never was more prosperous. • The pay-
ment of rents he did not consider quite conclusive; but,
admitting, with the Hon. Member for Clare that this was
a criterion of prosperity, he must state that all accounts
he had received from Ireland led to his purpose, for at no
period were the rents more punctually paid. And with
regard to the commercial interests of the same country, he
would ask whether there were any difficulty of obtaining
money on fair security ? And this was not confined to any
particular district, for, from the opportunities he had of
knowing the state of the country, he could confidently as-
sert that in the north, the west, and the south of Ireland,
the same feature of prosperity prevailed. He would ask
the Hon. Member for Clare, who spoke of the stagnation
of trade me that country, whether it was worse now than
it was tea years ago? The population was rapidly in-
creasing, and the improvements made in machinery by
Watt were beginning to take effect in that country,—no
slight proof, in his opinion, of the improvement of trade
and commerce. On bis first visit to Ireland;in 1820, he

hats a boyish zeal, for go he might call it, for the welCirt-
and improvement of that country. Since that lie had a
duty imposed upon him, for which he was salaried by Go-
vernment, and Isis interest in the prosperity of Ireland
still was the same, arid still would continue whether be
was in an official situation or not. At that period he went
in a Government packet, which was long detained by
contrary winds, while steam-vessels belonging to private
companies passed them with the greatest faciiity. The
case was now different. Government, which generally
lagged behind in improvements, had, at last, encouraged
steam navigation, and in consequence of this, as well as of
the increased traffic between the two countries, there
issued now from the port of Dublin alone 35 steam-vessels,
which could proceed in the most perfect calm, conveying
goods and freight to the amount of 5,012 tons. He held
a return in his hand, to which he called the attention of
the Gallant Member for Liverpool. It was a return of
the number of voyages made by vessels between Liverpool
and Dublin, and from Dublin to Liverpool; and it ap-
peared from this report, that from 1824 to 1830, there
had been 2;017 voyages—the cabin passengers, who left
Dublin for England, amounted to 12,771, while those
who left Liverpool for Dublin, amounted to 14,388,
making a balance of 1,617 in favour of Ireland. Bet
what was a still more remarkable fact was, the great
number of deck passengers who passed from Liverpool to
Dublin. The number which left Liverpool amounted to
137,970, while those who left Dublin for Liverpool were
only 116,625, making a balance in favour of Ireland of
21,345. The number of cattle which were shipped to this
country from Ireland, by steam-vessels, was also a proof
of the improvement in that country. The conclusion be
drew from this was, to leave Ireland to her own mighty
power, to benefit herself without instituting an inquiry
which could have no practicable result. Leave that great
measure—the settlement of the Catholic question—that
moral panacea for Ireland, to work its own effect, and the
result would prove what benefits it would confer on Ireland.
Mr. BEAUMONT would prefer the amendment of the
Hon. Baronet to the original motion, because the original
motion, in his opinion, conveyed a censure on Ministers.
He was willing to place confidence in Ministers, because,
though they might not believe the distress so general or so
great as it really was, they were willing to hear statements,
and had already made a considerable reduction in taxation.
with the view of benefitting the classes chiefly affected.
He only regretted that the reduction was not greater.
Mr. WM. PEEL admitted that there was distress, but
he could not at the same time help thinking that a great
deal of time bad been wasted in this discussion. His Ma-
jesty's Ministers had been blamed for not introducing some
measures for the relief of the country, but what would be
the result ? The Opposition would be quarrelling with
them, and he was sorry to say it was much more easy to
say what was not fit than what was. Let the Govern-
ment only come down with relief, and reduce the taxation.
—(Hear.)—They had done so to a certain extent, and he
trusted the circumstances of the country were such as to
enable them to proceed in further reductions. He was
glad that the state of Ireland was no longer such as to pre-
vent them, and thought some measure might be adapted
with success to driVe home the absentee's from this country
and Ireland, who went abroad only to learn awkward
habits and ape the manners of foreigners. If a tax were
laid ors their property, one million might be added to the
Budget.—jlear, bear.)—The distress, he admitted, was
general, but he hoped sincerely it would not lie permanent.
Mr. IiEAUMONT explained.
Sir THOMAS GOOCH wished to say a few words.
A pledge had been given that still greater reductions would
be made, and he hoped Ministers would redeem that pledge.
He should vote against the Committee, because lie saw no
advantage which it would produce for the country. The
country was labouring under distress, but an inquiry would
only lead to delusion, because the country would either be
ruined or relieved before the Committee could come to any
result. The selection of taxes to be reduced was judicious,
but he should be glad to see the malt tax, the duty on
sugar, and other taxes of a similar nature reduced. A
modified property tax, too, he thought would be beneficial.
—(Hear, Itear.)—A property tax of five per cent, would
produce five millions, which, with additional economy,
would enable Government to reduce taxes to a very con-
siderable amount.

The Marquis of BLANDFORD could not refuse his
consent to a motion which had for its object an inquiry
into the distresses of the country. He was ❑nwilling that,
by silence on such an occasion, he should be deemed insen-
sible to those distresses. He was of opinion that the only
proper remedy to be adopted, under the present circum-
stances of the country, was to be found in a reduction of
taxation to the amount of ten or twelve millions, accompa-
nied by a reduction of expense in all departments of the
State. He also, for one, should consent to Government
imposing a tax upon capital. If Ministers did not adopt
such a course the people had but little to hope from their
representatives in that House. They had nothing to ex-
pect from the sympathies of the other House, and it should
be their last and only expedient to assemble front one end
of the country to the other; sad respectfully, but firmly,
to present addresses to the Throne, descriptive of the utter
misery to which they had been reduced, and which they
could no longer patiently endure.
Mr. LENNARD admitted the existence of great distress
in the country, but was of opinion, after what had fallen
from the Hon. Secretary for the Home Department, and
from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that his Majesty's
Ministers appeared to be fully alive to its extent. They
were also pursuing the right course for its alleviation, by a
reduction of taxation. In that respect, however, he thought
they had not, as yet, gone far enough. He did not think
that any beneficial results would follow the appointment of
a Committee.
General GASCOYNE should support the original mo-
tion. He could not at all concur with the statements of
his Hon. Colleague as to the extent of the wretchedness of
the country. Had the Hon. Gentleman extended the
circle of his tour, be would have entered on districts of dis-
tress which had escaped his observation. Independently
of this, he could not allow much weight to the repre-
sentations of the Hon. Gentleman, opposed as they were to
the testimony of Members of that House from every part
of the country. The very motion for the repeal of taxes
was itself an indication that Ministers were well aware of
the existence of distress. Some Hon. Members had said,
what relief can you expect from 10 or 20 doctors, all dif-
fering in opinion as to the national malady ? He should
not adopt that metaphor, but should rather look upon a
Committee as a Jury impanelled to inquire into the murder
of the labour of the country. He feared that unless the
Ministers should condescend to listen to the complaints of
. the people, they would have little to expect from that
House, and that they would be compelled to appeal to the
Throne. But Hon. Members should beware of the result
of their votes that night. These votes would not be for-
gotten by the people—they would go down from one quar-
ter to another, and Ilon. Gentlemen would meet with
their results when and where they should least expect it.
He should perform his duty by supporting the motion for
inquiry.
Sir F. BURDETT said his Hon. Friend who had
brought forward this motion had deserved the gratitude of
the country. It was impossible to have heard the peti-
tions read from the different parts of the country, com-
plaining so bitterly—it was impossible to consider the
number of those which had been laid on the table, with-
out feeling the magnitude of the subject which they in-
volved. When, however, no other Member had under-
taken to bring it before the House, that Hon. Member had
with the greatest patriotism and efficiency done so. He
should confess that he had been more then ever confirmed
in the opinion of the necessity of complying with the
prayers of the petitioners before the House, both from the
arguments of those who had supported and those who had
opposed the present motion.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—He
could not concur with the assertion of the Honourable
Member for Northampton, that there would be any reason
to suppose that the people of England would construe a
vote of that House of that night in favour of this motion,
as a censure upon his Majesty's Ministers; nor, on the
other hand, that such a vote would end in delusion. If
it should end in delusion, then all the functions of that
House should be considered by the people as a mere de-
lusion.—(Hear. )—With respect to the distress of the
country, it was admitted ; but the assertion of its being
slight or partial was but an aggravation to the sufferers, an
insulting contravention of the strong language of their peti-
tions. In reference to the letters which Hon. Members had
produced from their pockets and read to the House, he
should only make this remark, that he had not observed
that any representative of a populous town had been able
to say that his constituents concurred in such representa-
tions. Those letters had been sufficiently answered by
the Hon. Member for Newark.. But vas it in the House
of Commons that such documents should have been al-
lowed to prevail against the strongly expressed petitions of
a suffering people—petitions substantiated by the individual
statements of their representatives from every quarter
of the country. Early in that discussion the Hon. Alem.
her for Worcester had stated that we had but a choice of
evils; but he found it impossible to concur with him.
He had said that he admitted great suffering, and that it
had arisen from a great diminution in prices. His (Sir
Francis's) Gallant Friend had replied that prices should be
kept up ; and he (Sir Francis) said, why not? That is a
question which they seemed to consider as laid at rest ; but
they had not satisfied him of the correctness of the con-
clasion to which they had arrived, that those high prices
which they called war prices could not exiit. He thought

the whole question at present was one of high and low
prices. If they could have high prices, the distress of the
country would be relieved, and it rested on those who
maintained tho impossibility of so desirable a consumma-
tion to staldish its impossibility. Under such circum-
stances, those who maintained that inquiry was unneces-
sary ashnitted that the House was a mere humbug.—( Hear)
The Hon. Member for Suffolk had, in 1822, presented pe-
titions from the distressed agriculturists, and he had de-
clared that the curse of the country should fall heavily upon
that House if it did not listen to them. The petitions now
on the table were much more important than those had been
—( Hear). That hid heen an agricultural distress—it might
have found relief,-'arid have left other interests in the coun-
try to -struggle in embarrassment; but now the manufac-
turer, the trader, the shipowner, and the agriculturist,
found themselves all embarked in the same bottom, to
sink or swim together. He should repeat, that the true
general question to be now decided was, whether they
could return to high prices ? On that subject let there be
inquiry. The Secretary for the Home Department had
made a long speech, but not a very conclusive one, and by
no means 'an answer to the speech of the Hon. Member
for Callington, whom he might call the Member for Bir-
mingham, by which title he hoped they should soon all
hail him. His powerful and expansive argument had been
met by the Hon. Secretary with narrow and inconclusive !
details, in which he bad perfjetly enveloped and obscured
himself. If that House should concur in those narrow
views, and now reject inquiry, it would thereby confess
an abandonment of all its functions, and constitute itself a
mere registry for Ministerial taxation of the people. ! The
Hon. Secretary had broached a variety of fallacious and
mistaken doctrines. True, he had said that he had be-
fore him a chart of the distress of the country; but he
did seem to have been in the midst of a stormy ocean—to
have been launched on a sea of trouble, without chart cr
compass to guide him, and endeavouring to beat on-
ward - through the waves with a miserable remnant
of canvas. He (Sir Francis Burdett) could not but
loOk upon the state of the country as alarming, when he
saw a Minister of the Crown; in another place, stating such
doctrines as that, when the currency of the country had
consisted-of 28 milliOns of gold, the circulating medium
had been equal to what it had been when there had been
so much paper in the country that it bad not allowed one
ounce of gold to co-exist with it. This was an alarming
circumstance, and one that called on that House to inter•
pose between such a Minister and such opinions and the
interests of the people. He would recommend lion. Gen-
tlemen to read one little short essay of David Hume—
(Hear, bear)—and they would see from that great lumi-
nous perspicuous mind, they would see the means of making
out a chart, and the Right Hon. the Home Secretary who
complained of being unable to ascertain his meridian,
would be enabled to see a star by which to steer. Without
consulting any other more voluminous writers, he would
say that any one who studied that essay of Hume, would
be better able to discuss and judge what coorse ought to be
pursued under such circumstances as the present. The
Right Hon. Gent. said that money had nothing to do with
the present condition of the country, because there had
been distress previous to-his Bill of 1819, and because
distress prevailed in 1810. That was an odd
mode of reasoning front particular facts, and there
could be no more erroneous species of argument
than the deduction of a general conclusion from two
or three particular facts. He (Sir F. B. ) had that morn-
ing seen two gentlemen, Messrs. Hadley and Spooner,
of Birmingham, who spoke upon the point, both practical
men, and both well acquainted with business at the
periods mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman. The
distress of 1810 they truly said originated from the Bank
having issued too much paper, and then from au alarm
which had gone through the country they refused other
paper, and thus broke several of the most eminent houses
in the country. That was the fault of the Government,
for a Government ought always to look after the currency
of a country. Then came the distress of 1816, and it is
true before the birth of his favourite, or at all events his
adopted child ; it was true that this distress came before.
hand, but it was merely the tidings and a foretaste of the
blessings of 1819. For the Bank had begun in 1816 to
prepare for cash payments, and then came the distress,
and after came the saute relief by the Banks, and the mat-
ter went on. The Right lion. Gentleman ended his speech
by quoting some doggrel lines with respect to an Hon.
Gentleman at this side of the House, and said be was more
afraid of the doctor than the disease ; but he said that the
Right Hon. nritlemari was the doctor of whom he com-
plained, and like the dealer in empiricism had but one re-
medy—gold, the fatal remedy of 1819. The distress that
then followed was called agricultural, hut was in fact
general distress ; awl then it was that the Hon. Member
for Sussex brought forward his motion for the issuing of
1/. notes. Then ageism -was the remedy tried, and again
the distress had fdlowed ; so that acting not upon any
practical rule, but merely upon theory, in spite of reason
and of that distress which might now be produced as its
acme, the Right Hon. Gent. came forward with his de-
termination never to alter it again. This, however, was
not time first, nor the second, nor the third, nor even the
fourth time, at which this, which he might call experi-
ment= crueis, had been tried. Then againfeame the Right
lion. Gentleman's other fallacy, for he said, " We have
been going on for eleven years." But he (Sir F. Burdett)
said it was no such thing, and he thought the House would
utter nothing but a declaration of its own incapacity if it
rejected the motion of his Hon. Friend—(Loud cheers)—
and yet this was the argument of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, to save the god of his idolatry—that golden idol
which he thought we must be as besotted as the Israelites
in Horeb if we bowed down and worshipped. And others
called the money of other days dirty rags—fictitious
currency. Fictitious, indeed ! he would like to see that
fictitious happiness restored which we enjoyed in 1812,
1813, and 1814, even to the termination of the
profligate expenditure of that most expensive war in
which we have been engaged, and during which the
Government had been so negligent. Whether it was
just or unjust, necessary or otherwise, no doubt at all
could exist that its expense was enormous ; and though its
success was brilliant and complete, that expense was un-
necessarily great. It might be said this proved nothing,
but it went in support of his argument, for, notwithstand-
ing that lavish expenditure, the country flourished. The
circumstance that occurred in 1797, and the withdrawal
of the gold then, he believed to have been a step so bold
and decided as to save the country. From that time the
system of the depreciation regularly spread itself until the
end of the war ; and though it might be an evil, yet it
was one of which nobody complained. If the people
were ruined, they were not aware of it, because every
thing had so settled down in proportion, that the ingenuity
and time enterprise of the country had produced more than
the war had caused to be lavished, and to the astonishment
of those who had been its opposers, it was found that the
country, instead of deteriorating, was never so full of
prosperity—fictitious prosperity it might be—as at the end
of the war. It might be said from this that be was not
a friend of the country; but he would still-contend tbat
every unnecessary taxation was a spoliation ; still he
should observe that when the taxes bad reached the height
they bad at that time, they did not preis with such weight
on the springs of industry as to throw time country back,
or even to retard her progress, but that, on the contrary,
she was able to bear the burdens of time war much easier
than' those lesser ones now imposed. But it was idle
then to speak on the cause of the calamity, as it was now
considered. Peace

Nunc patimur longe pacis mali.!
He would say go into the Committee, and men who knew
6 much as the Right Hon. Gentleman of Birmingham,
would tell a different story of that which seemed to be his
chosen land. He was not himself a practical man, but
he could see that the Government had placed the country
in situation where, perhaps, it might be as perilous to go
back as forward ; but let there be inquiry at all events..—
He confessed that, with respect to the Government, he
felt as Lord Chatham did at the commencement of a cele-
brated war, when he said, on looking at the list of Gene-
rals who were to command, " I do not know what effect
this may have upon the enemy, but I know that it makes
me tremble."—(Hear, and a laugh.) Let Ministers, he
would say, do no more than their duty, for which they
were well rewarded, and he asked no more from them than a
consideration of the public interest. But the public inte-
rest hail now come to that point when the sales populi—
when the suprema lex authorised them to come, and
when there was nothing for consideration but the dis-
tress of the whole people—except the pensioners.—
The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to read an extract from
a pamphlet to prove that all that had been received on
509,465,0001., borrowed since 1793, was but 57 per
cent., for which we had contracted to pay 1001. Now
he could not understand what dishonour there would be in
paving only the 571. actually received. The Right Hen.
Gentleman might prove he was mistaken, but he could
not see he was bound to pay more than he had contracted
for, when the alteration was made by the intervention of
a third party without his consent. He was ready to meet
the Right Hon. Gentleman on the point, whether the dis-
tress of the country had not arisen from his Bill of 1319,
and he (Sir F. Burdett) pledged himself to prove that it
bad. The Right lion. Gentleman also said that this was
not a new transaction, as it been going on for fifteen years ;
and he bad said, " how, after a long war, was it possible to
keep up prices to the same level?" The Right Hon. Gen-
tlettian was, however, mistaken on one point, as it was not
true that we had gone on any regular system. The only

point was now whether we, not having any standind
fixed rule, but having gone on for eleven years without
any settled plan, should not now consider what we ought
to do. The Right lion. Gentleman did not talk of the
transh ion, -but merely of the difference between war and
peace—and this mode of bringing in the war was not
merely bad reasoning, he would not call it disingenuous,
but it was certainly most decentious. When he said war
did this or that, it should, at Wast, be shown how. He
(Sir F. Burdett) said that war had nothing to do with the
matter. The Right Hon. Gentleman had professed great
sympathy for distresses into which he would not inquire,
and he would persuade the House that he was especially
alive to the distresses of the landed interest ; but the re-
sult of his argument amounted to this, that those distresses
should be permanent.—(Much cheering.)
Mr. PEEL—I said no such thing.

Sir F. BURDETT continued, that such was the effect
of the Right Hon. Gentleman's reasoning—if reasoning it
might be called—be was for low prices, and prosperity to
the landed interest was not compatible with low prices.—
(Hear, hear.)—The Right Hon. Gentleman would fain
show that the landed interest was of no importance at all ;
and, if so, he (Sir F. B.) should be inclined to make a
fight of it upon that point; he was happyeto believe that
no interest could flourish unless the landed interest
flourished, and he trusted that the landed interest would
lay this point to heart.—(Hear, hear.)—This was the
time for landed gentlemen to pat to themselves the question
asked by the Poet—
.. -.

Shall we, like exiles, still be doom'd to mourn,
And ne'cr, with length of rolling years, return ?
Shall we, compell'd by fate's unjust decree,
No more our homes and pleasant valleys see?
Or shall we mount again our rural throne,
And rule the rural kingdom once our own ?"
He, however, called on the landed interest nat to give up
the situation they held of national defenders of the tenantry,
and of the liberties of the people of England.—(Hear,
hear.)—And it was because they were in England, and
that there was no such hotly in any other country, that
the4people of England, whether in war or peace, bore
themselves triumphantly. If the landed interest were
down, he should like to know bow the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman could keep up the manufacturing interest ; and, if
that were down, how could the shipping and the mercan-
tile interest be kept up? How, too, could they, though
last, not least, remedy the distress of the working people?
The Right Hon. Gentleman said, " You can't show that
we would have high prices;" but he (Sir F. Burdett) said
that, but for his Bill, that would not be the case, because
we should have a money which would only go in our own
country. Then it would be said that we should have no
gold ; and that was true : and it would appear as if this
appetite fur gold had brought upon us the fate of :Midas—.
starvation.—(Hear, hear.)—lt might be fairly asked of
our Prime Ministers—indeed, of cur Ministers generally,
for some time—

Auricular asini quls non habet ?"
But it was also asked, was every man who could put up a
board to set up a Bank if he pleased. No, for attention
ought to be paid by the Government to all such matters ;
and if the Master of the Mint paid no attention to the coin,
and it because depreciated, could that be urged as an argu-
ment that it would be better to have none at all? It would
be asked again, how, in such a case, was free trade to go
on? and he said this had nothing to do with it; but it
would be an argument for real free trade—that was
merely an exchange, between different nations, of equiva-
lents; and, if we had real free trade, we would not go to
the market of Portugal for had wines, when we had those
of France better and cheaper at cur own doors, and when
we should do infinitely better by abolishing all our coast-
guards and limitations, and suffering the two countries,
formed by nature to supply each other's Wants, to do so,
than keep them, as they were at present, separated by re-
strictions. Prices had nothing to do with the matter.
You sent your goods to a foreign merchant, and he gave
you an equivalent. If trade were regulated by prices,
none could be carried on, from the follies of Governments.
We might and we ought to have high prices. The House
were told of the excellent disposition of the Ministers in
taking off the taxes on beer and cider to such an amount,
that in six or seven months' time we might have our beer
Id. a pot cheaper; hut whit NITS this to the manufacturers
and to the gentlemen of England? What was it to the poor,
who were so badly off that they could not get beer? What
sort of mockery was this ? Why the people out of doors
would laugh at the wisdom of Parliament. The Right Hon.
Gentleman dealt altogether in fallacies, and 'Birmingham
would prove it; but neither the Right Hon. Gentleman,
nor any other person in the House, had remarked that the
causes of the distress were of two distinct kinds. That
alone seemed to enter into the Right Hon. Gentleman's
view—he meant that nakedness and hunger, which was a
shame to the nation not to relieve—and the Government
would abandon its duty or proclaim its incapacity if they
did not find means to provide for. That was one kind of
distress, and from a different cause ; but he would pass by
the absurd overstimulating system of creating a great over-
population, and that labour, when met by competition, is
necessarily given at the lowest rate, and distress thereby
engendered. This showed the folly of saying that the
country we; not over-populated while there were waste
lands remaining; but when labour was in the market, and
did not produce its proper reward, then there was no doubt
of an over-population in the country. That, as he had said,
was one sort of distress; and the other description had, in
connection with this, which acted on another class—he
meant the gentleman who found part of his estate gone
from him—that the price of the produce of his land, in-
stead of being 9!., was reduced to 6!., and who, when pe-
titioned for relief, found a distress still more urgent press-
ing himself down. This distress was felt amongst the
more wealthy class alone ; and it must be so while the
landed interest was distressed ; and it was one in which all
labourers must share, and all who employed them must
feel. He could not feel satisfied with the reasoning which
had been urged against the House doing its duty, and en-
deavouring to find a remedy for the distress. They mud
not be overlaid by a monstrous weight of evidence, and he
might say, that either the original motion, or the amend-
ment moved upon it, would equally answer the purpose ;
and he also thought his Hon. Friend, the Member fur
Shaftesbury, did not much care which was carried. He con-
cluded by imploring Hon. Gentlemen to listen to the
voice of the nation, and not throw the people into utter
despair by negativing the motion before the House. The
Hon. Baronet sat down amidst loud cheers.

Mr. Secretary PEEL only thought it necessary to notice
one extraordinary misconception into which the Hon. Ba-
ronet had fallen, with respect to what had fallen from him
the other night. The Hon. Baronet said that he (Mr.
Peel) had avowed that it was his settled policy to depress
the landed interest. He thought that every one who
heard him (except the Hon. Baronet) must have known
that he had said no such thing. What he said was, that
during the war many bad soils were brought into cultiva-
tion, and that the steam communication with Scotland
and Ireland brought the good land there more into compe-
tition with ours in this country, and he regretted that all
these causes must keep the level of the landed interest and
the prices below that of the war ; and yet it was upon these
grounds that the Hon. Baronet had the indecency to say
that he avowed, as his settled principle of policy, to de-
press the landed interest—an interest with which he must
beg to say he was deeply concerned, and the prosperity of
which he had as good reason to wish for as any one in the
llouse.

Sir FRANCIS BURDETT begged the Right. Hon.
Gentleman's pardon. He had never imputed to the Right
Hon. Gent. any desire to depress the landed interest; but
he certainly did say that the rule of his policy led him to do
so. He was sorry the Right Hon. Gent. felt any warmth,
because of any evil design to the landed interest he most
readily acquitted him, and merely meant that his policy
must have a tendency to lower and depress them.
Mr. PEEL did net anticipate any such thing; but he
had said, and he repeated his conviction, that the cultiva-
tion of the poorer soils must necessarily suffer.
Sir THOMAS GOOCH said that the Hon. Member
for Westminster had also misrepresented him, as he charged
him with saying that the petitions of the poor should not
be referred to the Committee. What he said was, that in
the long discussion that the subject had undergone he had
not heard a single argument from which any good could
result, and that, anxious as they were, Parliament could
not do the least good. The Hon. Baronet bad made
another mistake, namely, that there was a Committee in
1821 upon which I was, and which had been productive
of relief to the country ; and then the Hon. Baronet won-
dered why he should not now agree to this one. But be
(Sir Thomas Gooch) called on all the gentlemen around
him to testify whether he had not said that he and the rest
of that Committee had laboured for two Sessions, and that
he asked whether they had produced any benefit at all ?
(Laughter, and loud cries of " Spoke, spoke.")--The Hon.
spoken but with thefirst
the
Bart. had also said that he had procured a greater issue of
I/. notes; but he had done no such thing.
Mr. F. LEWIS then rose. When he heard the Hon.
Baronet rise in unqualified praise of the Act of 1797, he
time
must
beexhpardess everls heardassurpriset,hat A
thctis was
epithet of " lamentable" applied to it. Mr. Hume, the
historian, had stated that no country was so prosperous as
when there was a constantly increasing currency. Did he '
mean a constantly depreciating currency ? He was not
such a mock philosopher as that. He stated what was
true, that when the country increased in prosperity 'it
. necessarily increased the wealth, and quantity, and
value of its commodities. Ifthe Hon. Baronet looked to
the Bank Restriction as the support of that interest to

,vhieh, of till others, be (I►lr. F. 1..e.‘.:,) was attatLe,i--if
contended that the landed int,2rcst onght to he upheld
unjustly, at the expense of othiirs, to the depreciation of

currency, Le never Would countenance him. If Lo

relied on the Bank restriction, there was experience to
show that the Bunk restriction was istcfneirnt for the pur-
pose. Tha Bank restriction had failed from the failure

of country banks in 1816. If you bad recourse to Bank
restriction again, it would fail you when you least expected
it. Without the House expressing any wish upon the

subject, the currency had l)cwt restored in 1S1(5, and it
had created a convulsion ef di•trese, which had extendtal
throughout the country. The Hon. B;ronct had pas w.l

ever this without notice or observation. The Bank re,

striction was so irregniar, that yca could not depend upon
it. The Hon. Baronet hml gone go far as to state that you
(night have what prices you liked. This was the dream of

ti:ose who supposed that you might have some fluctuating
wandlardl, which Ministers were to ehange as they please.l.
Sir F. BURDETT explained. • -
Mr. STANLEY as tier representative of a- great miru-

licturing and commercial tr.er, should fcel hitusAf guilty

of disrespect to his constituent; if he suffered the• debate

t 3 cloee without expressing his sentiments. He did not
mean to deny that distress was prevailing to a great ex-
tent. His constituents had been genanity suffering under
it. Although there was a distinct improvement, still it
was equally indisputable that many of the industrial': lower
classes were in a state of destitution and:poverty.. We
were told that there was to be a Committee of the wlmio
Roust ; but we were not told how they were to carry their
examination into effect. The eaus,s of the distress and

;he remedy must be purely a miner of opinion and spec:lt-

latien. The expense of such an inquiry would be great
without the smallest prospect of the remotest advantage.

Every Member would cute doivn itelh;tiffercnt phm%.
The Hon. Member for Stafford hire's brine forward
the truck systern..-the Hon. Member fur the

subject of emigration—the Hon. .141 ember ftir Newark,
I ish absentees. A Committee itp -stairs .was
less proper than a Committee of tile whole Iftiose. ./t

was superlatively absurd, as proposed by one Hon. Mem-
her, to go into the causes of the distress, and exclude frona

the proposal the question of currenay, whicti Ffrrat
number of Members considered to be the main and priws
cipal cause of the distresa. He hoped that Ministers
would carry the reduction of taxation much further.' lie

shochl feel it to be his duty to vote against both the pro-
positions.
Mr. WESTERN comp!ained of the distress which ex-
isted, and said that whatever might he the result of the '
inquiry it was our duty to enter into it.
Colonel WILSON was so satisfied with what adminis-
tration had done, that he confessed he was surprised that
they had gone so far to meet the petitioners' wishes by such
a sweeping reduction as five millions of taxes. Having
gone so far, he had no doubt that they would go still far-
ther, and effect the object all had in view. It had been
said that be had been skulking and hanging back of late,
through a wish to support Ministers.—(Laughing.)—ls
was false. He wanted neither place, nor pension, nor job,
no loaves, no fishes.--(Loud laughing and eheets.)---Had
I, said he, been Minister—(Roars of laughter)—had I
been Minister I'd have thrown the assessed taxes overboard,
and introduced a properly regulated and graduated pro-
perty tax, embracing all absentees. rd like to know what
would .have been the result, if the gentlemen generally
opposed to Government had been in place. Should'itt we
be out of the dung into the mire? Setting aside alto-
gether those crack-brained plans some have proposed
(A laugh)—l should like to know what good could be ex-
pected front an inquiry in Committee on this subject, if
we were to sit there for a month of Sundays?—(Cheers
and laughing, with loud cries of " Question, question ;
divide ; clear the gallery.")—Let me tell those gentle-
men who vociferate " Question," that I want nothing
of them or Ministers. I began to serve my •country
when I was 15 years of age, and I served my country
with Brown Bess on my shoulder. I paid for my soldier's
clothes—(A laugh)—and for my Drown Bess too; and she
cost me ten pounds. Do you hear that ?—(Loud laughing,
and cries of " Question, question !")—I am not one of
those that will gallop away to the moon to look for infor-
mation like some people; but I don't think it difficult to
see what's the cause of the present distress. It was only
through the country bankers that the distress was not felt
long since. Those who could not pay their rents but
through accommodation, went for three or four years with
their paper to the country bankers, and raised enough to
meet their rent. The Cash Payments Bill voila in and
broke the farmers, and sent them to break shines by the
road side. There is the secret.—(The cries of " Question,
question," growing louder the Hon. Member satalown.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY was convinced that-all intelligent
men in that House were of one opinion as to the means of • •
remedy which ought to be proposed for our present distress. •'
That could only consist in a repeal of a considerable propor-
tion
of our direct taxes, and an alteration of the character of
our taxation genet ally—(Hear)—in other chests of .our
contributions to the wants of the State. • He should not,
perhaps, have at so late an hour, trespassed on the House
had it not been through a desire to address an obser•
vation in reply to those which had fallen from the Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Westminster. All who heard._
him must have been overwhelmed with a share of that
astonishment which he himself so sensibly experienced this
evening. Singular, undoubtedly, were the arguments
be used, and more particularly singular as coming from
his mouth. Henceforward let no man assent to the trite
adage, " There is nothing new under the sun." Having
heard the sentiments of the Hon. Baronet, so startingly
and astonishingly novel, after it had been imagined by
almost all that there remained nothing now to be urged on
a question debated so copiously for four different nights by
so many able and conflicting antagonists, could it have
been imagined by himself, by Members in that House,
or the Hon. Baronet's constituents out of doors, that
the great and long-tried advocate of the rights' of the
people, of the interests of the commonality of England,
which lie had alternately defended with a bitterness of sar-
casm, which was so keenly felt by his foes; and a vehe-
ment eloquence which had rendered him the rallying point
of the friends of freedom throughout this country, should
have so far forgotten all he had once advocated as to
turn his back on the distresses of the people, whose idol be
had been, and when he had to combat the statements of
those who attributed eur distress to excessive taxation, assert
in his place that night, that the amount of taxation in this
instance was of little importance, and that the only relief
on which this country could reckon with any prospect
of its realization must consist in the maintaining
high prices.—(Loud cheers.)----Tliat these were senti-
ments both striking and singular he would admit, but
though he would not denominate them absurd. because
nothing absurd could come from that Right Hon. Baronet;
yet, to sty the least, he must confess they seemed to ap-
proximate the least to intelligences—(lean) With all these
singular sentiments, it was still more singular to bear him
talk of being solicitous for the shipping and manufacturing •
interests. How could they possibly be benefitted by a re-•
turn to high prices, when the other nations of Europe
were underselling us in every market; and our greatest
rival had shaken off, by a great effort, almost all that cor-
responding weight of taxation under which wselaboured.
—(Hear.)—He should not treat these positioniY absur-
dities, which it would not he difficult fo - • one so
ries
humble as himself to refute ; hot he wool not permit
them to pass unnoticed, as novelties of the most singular
description, considering the quarter from whence they
proceeded. He might have entered into these refutations,
which, he thought would not be a matter of difficulty to
the man of the plainest understanding in that House ; but
he preferred redeeming his pledge, and he should, there-
fore, content himself with thus shortly and pointedly ex-
pressing his surprise and dissatisfaction, with what had
fallen from that Hon. Member, who had hitherto been con-
sidered the warmest advocate of the interests and well
being of the people of England.
Mr. TRANT rose amidst loud cries of " question;"
feeling himself unable to obtain a silent- hearing, he said •
if he were interrupted further, be should be compelled to
move an adjournment of the question. He -was deter-
mined to redeem the pledge he had given to the Manufac-
turing Relief Committee, which met yesterday in the city,
and for whom he had it in charge to deliver a message to
1 that House, stating that they were eonvinoed of a most
overwhelming distress in different classes of the commu-
nity at the present day.
Mr. MONCK believed that the redaction of the expen-
diture and the repeal of the taxes were the only remedies
for our present sufferings and distress.
tHon.
of Gent.
one-third should
during
After a few words from Mr. BICKFORD,
Mr. BENETT alluded to the returns quoted by the
ot e the
as
Hon. Member for Liverpool, and was surprised that the
Right
thoevel
overlooked
year,
of the consumption in butcher's meat at Birmingham, to
he extent
compared
with with the years immediately preceding. This if stated,
would have rather, he thought, embarrassed that Right
Hon. Gent. in his triumphant calculations.—(Hear.) He
confessed he should most cordially vote for inquiry.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON alluded to the present
condition of the woollen manufacturers of Leeds, who had
lately made so strong a representation of their distressed
condition to the East India Company for employment in
preparing clothing for the troops in India, at reduced
prices, as a proof that business was unpredentedly dull,
and property depreciated. But he would challenge every
man, conversant with general business in London, to state
what article was there now offered for sale in the London

rnatkei, which would bring first cost price.—(ilear,
Lear.)—Things were a trifle better now, because a price,
though a losing one, could he obtained. A month
ago no price whatever could be obtained. As to the iron
trade, in which he was most interested personally, persons
were much deceived if they thought, because production
went on the last four or five years, business was not getting
worse. Millions had been laid out in that great trade,
which had produced nothing but total or partial ruin to
many spirited individuals. Any man of jeeling who had'
witnessed the sight he had seen as to the distress of the work-
ing classes in that department, in consequence of the fall
of price-, and want of work, must have been shocked at
witnessing their distress ; and really what he and others
paid those poor fellows was, though small, often much
more than their labour was worth. But they thought
with him, that after they had brought together a dense
and excessive population into a district which was
pnitel to their purposes, as ironmasters, and having
through these poor people's instrumentality acquired
wealth and consideration as he had in more fortunate
Limes, they were not, in consequence of the trade
now hying carried on at a great loss personally to them.
eelvvs, to ray---4' we cannot employ you any longer ; since
your labour has ceased to be productive to us, you must
look out for yourselves." Had such been the conduct
pursued in those districts, the distress would have been
appalling. In fact, his feelings would revolt at the thought
of inflicting such an accumulation of misery on those who
bad been necessary to his fortunes under more felicitious
circumstances. Hence it was that he continued to carry
nn his works, and multiplied their produce, though the
accumulation of stock was enormous, and the loss corres-
pondent.--(Loud cheers.) _ _

Mr. WARBURTON thought that the most fatal mea-
sure the House could adopt, with a view to relieving the
distress, would be to go into Committee on the currency.
--(Hear, hear, mixed with cries of " question.")—lf
they went into Committee, the consequence would be that
every bank in the country which did not possess gold
enough to meet the real amount of its issues, must int-
mediat.l!, .11)p payment.—(Hear, hear.)
Mfr. t 4 v IIIIG rose amid loud cries of " question," and
" spoket4poke," and proceeded for some time, in the
midst of confusion, to reply to the arguments of the Hon.
• Momber for London.

Sir T. D. ACLAND stated, as Member of the Com-
mittee to which the Hon. Member for Dover had referred,
that the application for relief had considerably diminished
within the last fortnight.—(The uproar and cries of
" question" was again renewed.)
Mr. EWART explained.
Mr. E. DAVENPORT, in reply, said, from the tem-
per of the House it would not be sorry to learn that ill-
ness would prevent his addressing it at any length. After
debates of curb extraordinary duration—a duration, how-
ever, not disproportionate to the magnitude of the question
or the interests of the parties concerned in it—after the pa-
tience with which the supporters of the motion had lis-
tened to all the arguments, as well as to the sophistries
which casuistry could invent, in order to divert the atten-
tion from the real merits of the case—it would, indeed, be
great want of courtesy as well as candour to refuse a return
of that patient attention to him, whose duty it was to an-
swer the objections urged against a proposition in itself so
undeniably just and constitutional. For what was the
plain question which they were called upon to decide ?
whether the prayer of several hundreds of petitioners, from
all the principal towns, and above half the counties of Eng-
land, complaining of some unusual and extraordinary pres-
sui•e of distress, and, asking inquiry into the causes and re-
medies of their suffering condition, shall or shall not be at-
tended to. 'What an epoch in our history was this,
when such a motion could create a hesitation or
doubt
,as to its reception—when Members of Parlia-
ment were anxious to pair off against it, even
before they knew any thing more about the motion
than its general reference to the condition of their consti-
tuents, and when the individuals stating that condition,
were lerrne down by cries of question on the very first day
this question was agitated ! Would to Heaven the people
of England could witness the sort of scene which prevailed
when the representative of the first city in the world was
endeavouring to describe the real state of its trade, and to
put in evidence his own practical knowledge against the
mire statements of parties interested in concealing the un
welcome truth ! He wished they could have witnessed
the illogical as well as clamorous opposition with which
this plain question was met—the manner in which some
pretended to object to the form of the motion, whose real
objection was to the substance. Two courses were open,
and he (the Blover) was anxious to adopt that most agree-
able to the majority of his supporters. The worthy Baronet
(the Member for Cornwall), and the Right Hon.•Kniglit
below bins, had complaimed of not being informed of the
precise form of the motion. He (Mr. D.) however, could
assure those gentlemen, that, if they had condesended to ask
him, they should have not only been informed, but consulted .
But whilst he had no mysteries for those who agreed with
him, he certainly saw no necessity for going out of his way
to furnish his enemies with weapons of unfair aggression ;
and when the Right Hon. Gent. asked, a fortnight ago,
what sort of Committee lie intended to propose, he bad
thought himself justified is merely advising him to come
down prepared to meet him, (and to a man of his great
dexterity that was no great difficulty, whatever it might
be to some of his Lieutenants) to meet him on either
ground. It was enough for the Secretary of State to know
that he was sure to have a battle (and it would not be the
best) to fight, and whether he (Mr. D.) took post at
Highgate, or in Islington, it was not necessary to state.
But, old soldier as lie was, he could assure the Right Hon.
Gent, that he was not too old to learn, or to hope to be
wiser, and he had committed this fault, he had adopted the
course on the notice book, because he understood that it
was most acceptable, or least objectionable, to the persons
with whom he usually acted. But he got little by it, and
it turned out that they who usually supported constitutional
questions, not only abandoned him upon this occasion, but,
in imitation of the Saxons at the battle of Leipsie, actually
turned their guns on their ally. His Noble Friend (the
Member for Northamptonshire), who may be consi-
dered as the head of what may be called the Duke of Wel-
lington opposition, objected to the inquiry; let, because it im-
plied hostility to Ministers--so that when the petitions of the
people imply such censure they must not be attended to.
Why, what had his Noble Friend been about for the last
20 years? Every vote be gave for reduction or economy
was an act of hostility to Government; and really his new
course of opposition seemed to be bottomed upon the idea
and hope that he should never succeed in these laudable
efforts ; for if ever be did he must turn them out according
to his own principles. Besides, here is a government di-
rected and controulled by an irresponsible body. Now he
(Mr. D.) though he would not enlist in this new corps or
rather body-guard, would always aid his Noble Friend on
bis field-days, and in his laudable efforts at economy upon
a grand scale; he would not promise to waste his health
or bis shot against sparrows, but he should certainly like
to knew first whether he was in earnest or not; in short,
he would put the question asked by Prince Eugene to the
Duke of Savoy, whether he meant to win the battle on
such a day of to lose it. When his Noble Friend suspected
him of a desire to alter the currency, (though the motion
before the Nonse,says nothing about it,) no question the sus-
picion was unfounded. But how, in the name of casuistry,
will it be shown that such a disposition in the 658th portion
of the House of Commons could by possibility poison or per-
suade all the rest? Really he never could have expected so high
a compliment to the least eloquent man in the whole House,
as to be told that his (Mr. D.'s) influence was so tremen-
dous that it was likely to carry conviction to the unwilling
minds of a Committee of the whole House of Commons
upon a matter on which its wisdom, sense of jus-
tice, consistency, and humanity, had been so fre-
quently, and, as it would seem, irrevocably committed.
What then is he really afraid of? why the takingevidence
of facts tending to prove to demonstration the robbery and
ruin now in process, in consequence of those previous
tamperings to which be had given his assent : the truth
being that he was afraid to inquire further into the
murder of the national prosperity, least a new inquest,
though he knew the Secretary of State was sure to be the
coroner, should end nevertheless in hanging the authors,
and restoring the property to the rightful owner. There
was another unfair and incorrect assumption : no distinc
tion is ever drawn between altering the currency and at-
tacking the standard. Why, there were three or four in-
termediate steps; the very improvement in the banking
system recommended by the Master of the Mint, and ra-
ther deprecated by the Vice-President of the Board of
Trade, what was that but a; change? The restoration
of the silver standard, recommended by the Member for
Callington three years ago, and by the Secretary of State,
the limited issue of small notes, under safe re-
strictions, were all measures (he had never in-
sisted on any ulterior ones, whatever he might
do) making more or less a change in the currency.
The Secretary of State had, if not more politely, more
candidly and plainly, stated his objections to the doctor ;
which were perfectly natural—as he (Mr. Davenport)
never knew a doctor, who had made his fortune by his
nostrums, who could endure the ruinous rivalship of al
gratuitous practitioner. He was always glad of an oppor-
tunity to laugh—even at his own expense—and never
snore so than when in relief of a long tragedy; but when
he was expecting from the vultus multa et prceclars mi-
nantis of the Secretary of State some grand ebullition of
wit.--and when his (Mr. D.'B) muscles were prepared
for thus iliugbi %Ojai among tho AlitillAtrial

LONDON,
WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 24, 1830,

REDUCTION OF TUE FOUR PER CENTS.

By referring to our City Report, it will be
perceived that a notice has been sent from the
Bank to the Stock Exchange respecting a con-
version of the Four per Cents. into Three and a
Half—the new Stock not to be liable to redemp-
tion till 1840. To those who may dissent from
this proposition, an offer is made of 70/. in a
new Stock, bearing 5 per cent. interest, for every
1001. in the Four's, with a guarantee that it shall
not be redeemable till 1873. All persons signi-
fying their dissent to both these propositions to
be paid of in such order, at such periods, and
in such manner, as Parliament may direct.

The Debate upon the Distress of the Country
was last night concluded, when the motion was
negatived, and the amendment of the Honour-
able Member for Shoreham lost by a majority of
168-87 being for the amendment, and 255
against it. This decides the question of the
distress, we should think, for the present.—

Indeed, our own opinion is that a Committee
could do little or no good. Ministers will do
more by a further reduction of taxation than all
the Committees in the world. It is practical,
not theoretical, relief that the country wants.
Speeches are all very well in their way, but a
reduction of taxes and increased esonomy are
far better. Let the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-

CHEQUER turn his attention to this subject a
little more, and he cannot fail to give general
relief—and with relief universal satisfaction.

A resolution, condemning the conduct of the
Government in the affair of Terceira, was moved
last night in the House of Lords by the Marquis
of CLANRICARDE, and negatived by a majority
of 95. It will, therefore, we presume, go forth
to the world that this breach of professed neutra•
lity has received the deliberate sanction of the
upper branch of the British Legislature. It may
probably become a precedent, under which future
Ministers may shelter their conduct, and may
vindicate their disrespect to those international
rights which have hitherto been held sacred by
all civilized states.

The public will look in vain for an argument
to justify an attack upon the subjects of a friendly
Government on the high seas; or within the ter-
ritory of their legitimate sovereign. It is idle to
say that arms preceded the expedition, and,
therefore, it was to be regarded as a warlike
armament, because that is a circumstance which
might justify stopping it in our own port, but
not the interception of it after it had sailed. Why
was not the legal method adopted of seizing the
transports in Plymouth harbour, which a fortiori
.
we had a right to do, if we were warranted in
attacking them on their own .shores ? But if
this had been done, the Government knew full
well, that the question, whether an expedition
without arms was an armament or not, must
have been submitted to a Jury ; and this would
have caused " the noise, objection, and oppo-
sition," which the Duke of WELLINGTTON
appears, by his correspondence, so desirous to
have avoided.

The Duke, whose plain and candid manner
of speaking is always remarkable, let fall last
night some expressions which throw a light upon
the degree of sincerity of the Government in
their neutrality between the contending parties.
It was considered, it appears, highly desirable
to prevent Don PEDRO extending his influence
in Europe, and that Brazil should gain no
footing in the Portuguese dominions. This is,
in other words, that it was wished that
Don MIGUEL should be successful in the
maintenance of his usurped power, against
the daughter of Don PEDRO, whom we had
openly recognised, and whom our KING had
received as Queen of PORTUGAL, but whose

infancy made it unavoidable that her father
should be without influence in the affairs of her
kingdom. What is meant by saying, " That
the Azores must be regarded as a whole," and
that, therefore, Don MIGUEL, having possession
of some of the islands, was de facto Sovereign
of that " whole" as much as Donna MARIA,
in whose name Terceira was held ? It is mi-
serable special pleading to contend, that though
Donna -NIA niA's troops garrisoned the forts of
Terceira, and her Sovereignty was generally ac-
knowledged in that island, it must nevertheless
be considered as a part of Portugal altogether
in which her authority was rejected. But, be
this as it may, the attack upon the unarmed
Portuguese, in the waters of Terceira, was
equally unwarrantable, whether they were the
supporters of the QUEEN or Don MIGUEL.
Whether they were armed or unarmed—
Portuguese or Germans—liege subjects or
rebels—they were equally beyond our juris-
diction, and their blood that was shed was
manslaughter if not downright murder. As to
the LORD CHANCELLOR'S doctrine, that they
had no reason to complain, having received due
notice, its soundness was aptly illustrated by
Lord HOLLAND, who asked whether the
Learned Lord would have thought himself
justified, after a similar notice, in giving Mr.
ALEXANDER a sound drubbing the first time
he had met him in the street ? Notice can never
legalise any act unjustifiable in itself, under any
system of law, divine or human.
Nothing occurred last night which may be
supposed to intimate the approach of the
recognition of DoN MIGUEL. The contrary is
rather to be inferred ; recent events have, we
believe, abated the eagerness of the Cabinet in
this respect; and we have heard that the highest
personage in the realm has expressed himself in
a manner to leave no doubt that he will be the
last man to recognise usurpation, or to abandon
the cause of the legitimate QUEEN, in whose
fortunes he takes so warm an interest.

The Paris Papers of Sunday and Monday
have been received, from which the following

are extracts
:
(From the Gazette de France, dated Tuesday.)
"INVENTIONS OF THE DAY.

The Constitutionnel. —A report has been circulated
today generally, that four Ministers, Mess's. Chabrol,
d'Haussez, Courvoisier, and Montbel, had resigned. M.
Dation, in that case, would have the portfolio of Finance;
M. Guernon-Ranville, the Ministry of Justice ; M. Fer-
dinand de Berthier, the Marine ; M. Berryer, Public
Instruction ; and M. Peyronnet, the Interior.
" Thirty new Prefects will be taken on the extreme
right : Messrs. Sallaberry, de Pine, de l'Epine, de Canny,
de Sainte Marie, &c., are spoken of.

" A letter from Malta, dated the 3rd of March, says
that Admiral Malcolm was in that port with a part of the
British squadron, and that five Russian line-of-battle
ships, five Russian frigates, and three Russian Admirals,
were also in the port, on their way to the Baltic.
" It is certain that M. de Bourmunt will command the
active operations against Algiers.

" The Quotidienne says—' Since the year 1814 no
levee has been so numerously attended as that of yesterday.
It seemed as if every Royalist felt himself called upon thus
to express to the King his gratitude for the measures which
the King's solicitude for the welfare of France had lately
induced him to adopt. The Deputies of the cote droit,
by their firmness and decision, have deserved well of their
King, and were the objects of general congratulation. As
on days of ceremony, the Prefect of the Stine, the twelve
Mayors of Paris, the greater part of the Members of the
Municipal Council, and the whole Etat-Major, felt it a
duty to add their acknowledgments to those of the Depu-
ties of the departments, who were not fewer than ISO in
number, and were united by the same sentiments of at-
tachment and respect. They wished to present themselves
to the King in one body, and waited till all the other bodies
had passed his Majesty, who received them with emotion,
and addressed them in the most gracious terms. It was
observed, that the King showed marked attention to seve-
ral Deputies who had spoken against the Address, and par-
ticularly to Messrs. Conny, De Levine, and Berryer.'
" A meeting of the Paris electors, which was nume-
rously attended, was held yesterday, when it was resolved
that a grand dinner should he given to the deputies of the
Department of the Seine, and that a medal should be
struck in honour of the 221 members, composing the ma-
who voted for the Address, and proclaimed the ae•
jority,

cessity of concord among the three branches of the State.
In the event of the Director of the Mint refusing to exe-
cute the medal, it will be struck at Brussels,
" A considerable number of Peers, who, since the
opening of the Session, bad first assembled at the Duke
de Choiseul's, and then at the Duc de Broglie's, met on
Saturday at the house of the Duke of Dalmatia.
" The Ordinance of dissolution will, it is said, be pub-
lished on the 9th of June.
" The Drapeau Blanc is of opinion, that the rise in
the French Funds is to be ascribed to the determination of
the King to stem the current of revolution. The same
paper siates, that M. Agnado's brother has set out for
Madrid, to negotiate some very important financial opera-
tion ; which is probably no other than the issuing a new
Royal Decree respecting the Dutch claims.
" The Augsburg Gazette contains the following, dated
Frontiers of Servia, March 1 Communications with
Constantinople are now very active. The organization of
the regular troops continues, and it is said that, after the
example of the Pacha of Egypt, Deputies from all parts of
the empire will be convoked by the Sultan, in order to
discuss subjects relative to the administration. The second
instalment of the indemnity to Russian merchants, it ap-
pears, was paid about the middle of February to Count
Diebitsch ; the Russian troops will, therefore, undoubtedly
withdraw beyond the Balkan very shortly. The Grand
Vizier is still at Adrianople, where, according to report,
the Sultan is expected in May.'"
FRENCH FUNDS.--PARIS, MARCH 22.—Five per Cents., 107 f.
106 f. 95c. 90c. 95c. 107£ 106 f. 95c. 90c. ; Three per Cents., 84f.
20c. 25c. 15c. 20c. 25c.; Bank Stock, 1,900 f. ; Rentes de Naples,
93f. 93f. sc. ; Rentes d'Espagne, 12%; Royal Spanish Loan,
89% % N ; ; Rentes Perpetuelle d'Espagne, '74 % % % %; Hay-
tian Loan, 525 f. 50c. 525 C—Exchange on London—One month,
paper, 25f. '7oc. ; money, 25f. 65c. ; three months, paper, 25£
55c. ; money, 25f. 50c.—Coors Authentique.

The following are extracts from the Frank-
fort Papers received this morning :--
LEIPSIC, MARCH 13.
A Royal Ordinance was issued on the 6th February,
for the purpose of preventing inconsiderable emigration.
According to this Ordinance, passports for emigration are
henceforth not to be given to fathers of families, or to
whole families, unless those who apply for them shew-
-Ist. That they have already found a certain livelihood.
2d. Can produce a certificate from the authorities of
the country in which they intend to emigrate—that they
with their families will be then received and admitted as
subjects ; and
3d. Unless they. (as fathers of families) immediately
take their families with them.
These regulations extend only to fathers of fami-
lies, and to whole families, and in general only
to salt subjects as subsist by their manual la-
bour, but not to persons unmarried, or without
children, or to men of learning, artists, master manufac-
turers, and all those persons who may be presumed to have
sufficient knowledge and judgment to weigh the impor-
tance, and the result of such a step, and in whose case it
cannot be apprehended that they will be a burden to the
country if they should return.

MUNICII, MARCH 12.

In consequence of the great increase of begging in the
houses and the streets, the Board of Police has issued a
notice to remind the public—
That begging, as well as almsgiving to beggars, is
strictly prohibited, and that both will be punished, the
first as a trespass against the public security ; the second,
as encouraging it.

CASSEL, MARCH 13.

At the meeting of the proprietors of the Rhenish West
India Company M. Bicker, in his report on the state of
the funds of the Company, justly regretted that there was
no packet boat between the Elbe, Vera Cruz, and Tam-
pico, to convey the silver promptly from Mexico to Ger-
many. He estimates the exportation from Mexico to Ger-
many, exclusive of the profit of the mines of the German
Mining Company, at four millions of rix dollars annually.
The commercial speculation to the River Plate, and to
Valparaiso, are now a great loss to the company. On
the other hand, tea from Canton, imported at Hamburg,
has yielded a good profit.

LAW INTELLIGENCE.-(THIS DAY).

COURT OF CHANCERY.
COOPER V. RILEY.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that in this case a mo-
tion had been made some time ago for a receiver. The
case was of a novel nature. The individual who held the
office of Assistant Parliamentary Counsel, at a salary of
5001. a year, had assigned that salary over to trustees, for
the purpose of p lying certain debts, and the application
to the Court was, under these circumstances, for the ap-
pointment of a receiver of this 5001. a year. The office
of Assistant Parliamentary Counsel was not properly
speaking an office. A gentleman was appointed
to give advice as Assistant Parliamentary Coun-
sel to the Lords of the Treasury on certain
matters, for which he was paid a sum of 5001. a year ;
but he was liable to be discharged at any moment, and the
salary was paid out of fees. There was no permanent
fund out of which it was payable. Parliament voted an-
nually a certain sum applicable to legal services rendered
to the Lords of the Treasury ; and they allowed 500/. a
year to the individual who sustained the character in ques-
tion. No action could be maintained against the Lords of
the Treasury, nor any suit in respect of the same, there-
fore it was impossible for the Coutt to appoint the Re-
ceiver as prayed. Were a Receiver appointed, the Court
felt perfectly satisfied that the Lords of the Treasury
would not pay the money to him, but to the individual
whom they employed.
PEHBEILL V MORCAS.--NE EXEAT /MONO.
A gentleman behind the bar obtained leave to give no-
tice of motion for Saturday next, to discharge a writ of
tae eseat regno, granted ex-parte against the defendant
by his Lordship on the application of the plaintiff.
IN RE PEMBERTON, A BANKRUPT.—COMMITMENT TO