The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-07 00:00:00

RUPTS' ESTATES.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved for leave to bring
in a Bill to make better provision for the collection and dis-
tribution of bankrupts' estates. He said the Bill was similar
in substance to one he had introduced last Session. He saw
his Learned Friend the Member fur Exeter in the House, and
he begged of him to defer any objection he had to make to the
Bill for the Committee.—Leave given.
Colonel SIBTHORP begged to ask the Speaker why
th 3 whole of the resolutions brought forward by the Hon.
Member for Monmouth had been laid aside without further
inquiry ?
The SPEAKER made some reply, but in so low a tone as
to be quite inaudible in the gallery.
MUNICIPAL TAXES AND STAMP DUTY ON
FREEMEN.

Lord J. RUSSELL asked leave to bring in a Bill to regu-
late the times of payment of the rates and taxes by electors,
and to abolish the stamp duty on the admission of• freemen.
His Lordship said the Bill was quite similar to that which he
had introduced last year, and he would not, therefore, take up
the time of the House by entering into any detail.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the proposed Bill. He had
himself last Session brought in a Bill abolishing the stamp
duty on the admission of freemen. The Bill was read a se-
cond time, after which the Noble Lord brought in one to su-
persede it. He then stated to the Noble Lord that he felt
convinced his Bill would not receive the sanction of the Lc-

gislature ; the result had proved his conjecture was correct.
He would willingly vote for an additional six months' time
being given to electors for the payment of their taxes, but he
felt that it would not be received as a boon by the country.
The rate-paying clause was the most objectionable clause in
the Reform Bill; and if the Noble Lord would bring in a
Bill, repealing the clause, he would receive the thanks of the
country. The freemen were peculiarly deserving the consi-
deration of the House. Their position had been greatly al-
tered by the Reform and Municipal Bills. Previous to the
passing of those measures the freemen enjoyed great privileges,
of which they were now deprived ; and it was, therefore, but
fair to repeal the stamp duty on their admission. He had
come down to the House determined to take its opinion on the
propriety of dividing the Bill of the N.,ble Lord into two.
However he would not persevere ; he weuld give the Noble
Lord four months to csrry his Bill, and if he did not succeed,
be would, in April, move for leave to bring in a Bill for the
abolition of the stamp duty on the admission of freemen.
Mr. H. HINDE said he would not give the Noble Lord so
long a time, but he would immediately after the holidays bring
the question of the freemen forward.
Lord J. RUSSELL would not consent to have the ques-
tion separated.—Leave given.
SLAVERY COMPENSATION.

Mr. O'CONNELL moved for an account of all sums of
motley atsarded as slavery compensation, stating the date of
each order, the parties to whom, and the colony to which
awarded. And also the number of slaves for whom each pay-
ment had been made, the expenses of the commission, and the
sums claimed on which no award had as yet been made.—
Ordered.
Lord STANLEY said that as there was now no question
before the House, he would take the opportunity of calling its
attention to the resolutions which had been brought forward
that evening by the Hon. Member for Monmouth. If there
were any parties in that House who felt that those resolutions
were not only unusual, but in a high degree absurd and ridi-
culous—( Cries of " Order," " Hear, hear")—yes, he would
say, that if there were any parties in that House who were of
that opinion, the proceedings which had taken place that night
must have entertained them highly. This question, which had
been introduced with so much pomp—( Cries of " Question,"
from the Ministerial benches.) Hon. Gentlemen need not
interrupt him ;he was too well aware of the practice of that
House not to know that, there being no question before the
House, he should hav,e waited until it was moved that the
House do adjourn ; but he had thought his present course more
convenient. He had a right to make whatever observations
he thought fit after the House had adjourned. He would not,
however, make the motion; because, on its being made, he in-
tended to show cause why the House should not adjourn until
a different system was adopted with respect to its business.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the House do now
adjourn.
Lord STANLEY—He could now continue his observations
without interruption. He need not repeat again that the mo-
tion was most absurd—a complete farce. A measure which had
been so pompously announced, so avowedty made the ground-
work on which the Government founded their intention of
taking the extraordinary step of altering the law with regard
to election petitions had turned out a complete farce.—( Hear.)
The Hon. Member for Monmouth had come down to the
House with a string of well prepared resolutions—
Mr. HUME rose to order. The Noble Lord was arraign-
ing the conduct of a Member of that House—had he given no-
tice of his intention to do so ? That lion. Member was now
absent, and he (Mr. H.) would leave it to the Noble Lord's
generosity whether it was fair to attack him in his absence?
Lord STAN L E Y—l thank the Hon. Memb.:r for Kil-
kenny for informing me that the Hon. Member for Monmouth
is not present. Finding that he has disappeared under the I
cloud which has involved all the proceedings of this evening
in so much mystery, I will not proceed with any observations
that can relate either personally to him or invidiously to his
motion. —( Cheers.) But I wish to call the attention of the
House, as the Spottiswoode conspiracy storm seems to have
blown over for this evening.—(No, no I from the Ministerial
side.) What ! not blown over !—( No, no I from the same
quarter)—not blown over even for this evening l—( Cheers
from the Opposition.) Surely I have a right to say that the
storm is blown over, when an Hon. Gentleman, having given
notice of five resolutions, having made a long speech in recom-
mendation of those resolutions, finding very great doubt and
difficulty thrown upon them by a part of the House, finally
withdraws the first of the five, and the remaining four, fearing
the decision of the House, declines to have the question put
upon.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) That is the
precise
situation in which this most vaunted motion, which was to blow
up the Spottiswoode conspiracy, now stands.—(Cheers from

the Opposition.) But I want to know what we are to expect
from to-morrow. Clearly the Honourable Gentleman who
has given way to night has no intention of again inviting 114
to the discussion of those resolutions from which he has shrunk

this evening.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) No pos-
sible Parliamentary ground can be alleged for such a course.
The House to-night was full to overflowing. —( Hear, hear.)
The only wish on the part of the House was to have the ques-
tion put. But the Hon. Member could not persuade lihnself to
have the question put, because he was well aware of the recep.
tion it would meet with from the majority of the House._
(Cheers from the Opposition.) Therefore, that these resolu-
tions should ever again make their appearance upon the table
of the House, I hold to be a presumption insulting to the dig-
nity of the House.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) If they
should again make their appearance, then I must say that the
proceedings of this evening can be characterised only as the
grossest and most vexatious trifling with the House. —( Cheers
from the Opposition.) But I suppose that the great field-day
is to be taken upon the motion of the Hon. Member for Lime-
rick (Mr. W. S. O'Brien). We ask for judgment on the
general question—( Cheers from the Opposition)—we claim
it, we beg for it, but we cannot even have the question put
which is to enable us to express our opinions upon it.—( Cries
of " Oh," from the Ministerial side, responded to by great
cheering from the Opposition.) Now, it is proposed, as I
understand, to sink the general question in the individual
question. The petition of the Honourable Member for Li-
merick is to be brought forward to-morrow night, when the
great constitutional question is to be decided upon, whether
any individual is entitled by the law of the land to subscribe
his money to carry into effect the legal rights of any man, or
say body of men—( Hear, hear)—whether any individual has
the right to support by his money the expenses necessary to
procure justice by securing a true election, free from fraud,
for Members of this House.—(Cheers from the Opposition. )
We desire to discuss that point on the general quesfon, but
we are told that we must discuss it upon the single question.
The Hon. Member for Kilkenny charged me just now with a
want of courtesy in not having given notice to the Hon.
Member for Monmouth of my intention to alinde to the man-
ner in which he had brought forward his resolutions. But
how could I or any human being imagine by anticipation the
events of this evening ?—( Hear, hear.) Could any man
conceive that a question so solemnly brought forward would
be so ludicrously disposed of 7—( Cheers from the Opposition.
But I submit, whether the Hon. Member for Limerick—l do
not know whether he is present or not—( He is)—l submit.
then, whether he is not chargeable with a want of courtesy to
the House in not giving, before the question of adjournment
was put to-night, a distinct notice of the proposition which he
thinks of sufficient importance to bring forward in a sub-
stantive form to-morrow ?—( Hear, hear.) As the Hon.
Gentleman is in his piece, I hope I shall obtain from him ti.e
object I have in view—a distinct statement of the nature of the
proposition which in the course of some eighteen hours hence
we are to be called upon to discuss.—( Cheers.)
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN had taken an opportunity, more than
once in the course of the evening, of stating that until the mo-
tion of the lion. Member for Monmouth was disposed of, he
could not exactly say in what terms his ( Mr. O'Brien's) mo-
tion would be framed ; but, from first to last, he had given a
distinct intimation that it was his intention to direct the no-
tice of the House to the conduct of the lion. Baronet (Sir
Francis Burdett) the Member for North Wilts.—( Cheers. )
That intimation was given in terms as clear and explicit as he
had the power of employing ; and his absence from the House
a short time since was for the purpose of writing out the notice
of his motion for to-morrow night, for the purpose of giving it
to the clerk.—( Cheers.) The notice he was going to submit,
and which had been drawn up without any reference to any-
thing that had fallen from the Noble Lord, was in the follow-
ing terms.—( Here the Hon. Gentleman read the notice, but
in a tone of voice that rendered him inaudible in the Gallery.)
The purport of the notice %las, that he would this evening
move that the petition presented by him complaining of the
subscriptions raised to prosecute election petitions in Ireland
be referred to a Select Committee.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—The Noble Lord has called
the attention of the House to the proceedings of the night;
and I think he has indulged rather unduly in an air of triumph—
( Great cheering from the Ministerial benches) at the resolu-
tions moved by the Hon. Member for Monmouth not being
acceded to by the House. It is very possible that the Hon..
Member for Monmouth, not being used to the modes of pro-
ceeding in the House, may, without sufficient consideration,
have given notice of resolutions with which other Hon. Mem-
bers could not agree.—( Hear, hear.) It may be very possible
that the motion which he framed was not in accordance with
the general view of those who share in his opinion as to the
character of these subscriptions. --( Cheers.) But I do not
think that the Noble Lord is justified in assuming from that
that he is to leave this House with an assurance that the
confederacy to collect subscriptions for the purpose of
displacing Irish Members, and Irish Members only, is to
remain unassailed.—( Loud and long-continued cheering.)
I do not say that I could have supported the motion of
the Honourable Member for Monmouth. Ido not say that
it may be fit, considering the law and the precedents in
these cases, to 'a L.tate a Select Committee upon the subject;
but this I do sa), that an act more calculated to shake men's
confidence as to the fair decision of Election Committees—
( Great cheering)—an act more calculated to make men be-
lieve that the seats in that House were to be determined, not
according tit the just rights of the case, but according to the
politics of those elm held those seats—(Renewed cheers)—
an act more calculated to make one part of the United King-
dom afraid, nay, strongly sensible, that they will not get
justice—( Loud and long continued cheering)—an act more
calculated to work these evils than this combination, of which
Mr. Spottiswoode is at the head, I know no instance of in
the history of this country—( Great cheering)—and if I take
any part in the debate to-morrow, it certainly will be to insist
upon the dangerous character of such a proceeding.—( Cheers. )
What is the appearance that the thing presents? That men
collect subscriptions to support or to attack seats which they
think to be held unduly. That would be a question which, upon
some precedents and some decisions, might well form matter for
deliberation, and one high authority might be quoted who
had given a legal decision upon views founded upon the
subject. But this is not the character of this proceeding.
The character of the present proceeding is this, that hardly
were the elections over—hardly could any man know the
exact circumstances of any particular election—than a party
of persons—( Great cheering)—meet (this was upon the 30th
of August, when the particulars of the elections could hardly
be known) and decide immediately that a certain number of
those elections—they neither say which nor how many—are
iavalid—( Cheers)— they declare that practices had prevailed
at those elections of which they could have no knowledge,
and they proceed to say—not certainly that they found
their petitions upon that point—but they proceed to say that:
Members will be seated in the House having different opinions
from those of many Gentlemen who have been returned for
many parts of the United Kingdom.—( Hear.) What was the
direct tendency of such a course as this ? Was it not enough
to make every Irishman believe and think " Whatever I may
do with my franchise, to whomsoever I give my vote, I know,
although there may be a majority of hundteds of sound votes
in favour of the Member to whom I commit my wants, my
feelings, my interests, he will be no sooner returned to the
House, than he will be attacked by a monied combination—
( Loud and:continued cheering from the Ministerial benches)_.
not on the grounds that he does not represent me—not on the
grounds that he is not sent by me freely into the House of
Commons to speak my sentiments ; but because he does not
speak the sentiments of those wealthy and more opulent per-
sons who take care that there shall be returned for the county
or the borough of which I am an inhabitant a person, not to
represent my sentiments, but to represent the sentiments of
those who subscribe their money to secure the seats of such
Members as they please ?"—( Cheers.) I maintain that the
tendency of such a subscription is to raise in the breast of every
independent elector the feeling I have stated, and no other.—
( Cheers. ) I put aside, at this moment, the incenvenience,
the expense which may attend those who have been so elected ;
at this moment I will not take that point into considera-
tion. But I say that, considering the difference of political
opinions, and the differences in point of religion which
prevail in Ireland, to raise a subscription fun, and to
carry it throughout the country for the sole purpose
of unseating Irish representatives, and no other represents-
tives—( Cheers)—is a measure more calculated to estrange the
people of Ireland from a great portion, at least, of the people
of England—more calculated to engender feelings of bitter-
ness and of alienation than any measure of which we have
a record in history. —( Cheers.) It is calculated—and this is
the most injurious effect of all—it is calculated to make
the people of Ireland think that there are Members meeting
in London cognizant of the Constitution, and aware of the
practice of the House, who believe that if the Members for
Ireland are not suitable to the taste of some parties in this
country they may be turned out of their seats.—( Cheers.) I
say this because the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) has thought
fit, at the moment that the House was about to adjourn, to
recite, out of triumph, an account of what had taken
plane this evening.—( Hear, hear.) I ask the Noble Lord,
therefore—as there is no doubt that the Honourable Member
for Limerick will bring forward his motion—to come down
to-morrow and say, not whether it is legal in certain eases
to make subscriptions, but whether he is ready to starfid by
this Spottiswoode conspiracy—(Great cheering front the
Ministerial benches)—whether he applauds it as an act
dane in the spirit of the Constitution—(Renewed cheering).
—whether he stands up for it as an act calculated to cemeese
the Union—(Cceitinued cheering)—wi.eter he:with his krvaw-
ledge of theproccedings of the House, will say that those who
have circulated and promoted this subscription are likely
to make the character of this House more respected
throughout the empire.—( G seat cheering.) I will not say
now that any direct proceedings can be taken by the House. I
know but of one case is which resolutions of a similar na-
tu-e were proposed to the House, and they stand, indeed,
upon a very weak and fragile authority. I wish I could quote
some person of high legal fame as having brought them
before the House ; I wish I could name some person..
of great constitutional knowledge, some person of sound
judgment, as having proposed them ; but, alas 1 the only
person I can name as having done so, was the Hon Baronet
( Sir Francis Burdett) the Member for North Wilts.—( Loud
and long-continued cheering, mingled with much laughter.>
Upon his authority I certainly shall not lean.—(Renewed!
cheering.) The lion. Baronet undoubtedly brought a ease
against two electors of Midillessx, who were Members of this
House, who not only had signed a petition, but assembled at
a meeting somewhere in the City, and passed resolutions con.
demning the lion. Baronet for having obtained his seat by
illegal means. The Hon. Baronet moved resolutions, calling
upon the House to declare whether those electors had not
committed an unconstitutional act.—( Cheers.) Their defence
was, that, although they were Members of the House, they
were electors of Middlesex, and that they had signed the re..
solutions in question, as being the only means by which they
could make common cause with their fellow-electors, in pro-
moting a petition against the seat of one of their represen_

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tank, with this defence, it was hardly to be
Et resolutions of the Hon. Baronet could pre-
Mot take the Hon. Baronet as an authority;
4:)e derived from the former conduct of the

Igtagir*Kt I am ready to relinquish, and give him up en-
tirely to the Noble Lord.—( Great laughter and cheering.) I
promise the Noble Lord that he shall not hear me quote the
proceedings adopted by the Hon. Baronet as an example for
the House to follow in the present instance. I will stand only
upon the actual facts that have occurred ; and without saying
that it is possible for this House to afford any direct remedy
upon the subject, I will say that it is fit that the public notice
should be called to the case, in order that in consequence of
the discussion which I hope will take place—in consequence
of the condemnation (which I think will be general) of such
an attempt to govern the elections—persons may not for the
future endeavour to say " here are men who do not agree with
us in opinion—hcre are men with whose religion we differ—
here are men who go to consitute a majority against us ; for
these reasons, and upon such pretences, we will raise the
country for petitions to subvert them."—(Loud cheering.)
Sir CHARLES DOUG LAS wished to know whether at
the time before there was any coalition between the Noble
Lord and the Hon. and Learned Member, who at the begin-
ning of his Parliamentary career was called the franking Mem-
ber for Ireland, but who since had been well-known as the
temporary Member for Dublin—he wished to know whether
at that time the Noble Lord was not aware that large sums of
money were systematically collected to further the elections
of that party to which the Noble Lord was attached ? The
Noble Lord might think that Constitutional ; he ( Sir Chas.
Douglas) did not. The Noble Lord and his Colleagues might
very probably think their coalition with the Honourable and
Learned Member of very considerable importance, and there-
fore, they continued steady to engagements, which many of
them in their hearts wished they had never contracted. Their
coalition was indeed as cl!sgraceful to themselves as their
continuance in office had Leen pernicious to the country.—
( Laughter and cheers.) He repeated the remark, a!:(1 he
thought that the majority of the House must agree with him,
when he reminded them that the coalition of the Ministry
was with one who could not speak of his own countrymen but
as " hereditary bondsmen," nor of the people of England
except as the most " priest-ridden" people in Europe.
The question was then put and carried.
The House adjourned at a quarter past ten.

POS

-HORSE ABUSES.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUA:

NEWPORT, ISLE OF WIGHT.
Sta,—My business repeatedly calls me to different parts of
this island, to which there are no public stages, that is, to the
towns of Yarmouth, Freshwater, Brading, Shaoklin, and
Ni:on; my circumstances will not allow of my keeping a
In rse and gig, and I can but ill-afford to hire one, and it
tl erefore appears hard to me that I should be obliged to pay
such a heavy duty, while my more affluent neighbour can
keep his poney and chaise (as I am informed) without paying
one farthing. The poney and chaise that I hire appears, and,
I believe is one that some Don has driven till he was ashamed
to drive it any longer; the boor thing's knees broken, the
chaise making a most delightful rattle, yet this condemned
concern, which in its best days paid no duty, before I can
hire it is taxed as folows : —license, 7s. 6d ; assessed tax on
the carriage 41. 10F. per annum ; then cne-fifth of all that the
poney earns, or lid. per mi!e for every mile it travels ; the ex-
ciseman is constant in his visits, and his long Lordship gives
every annoyance, actually, I hear, demanding Is. 9d. duty to
Carisbrook and back, two miles. If Igo to Brading, 6s. for
the proprietor, and Is. 6d. for tl:e exciseman, making it
75. 6d. ; if I keep it all day it is 12s. 6d., I Os. for the carriage,
&c., and 2s. 6d., I must pay duty. Now Mr. Editor, I con-
sider this too bad; though I have yet not told you half the
worst, which I must reserve for my next letter, fearing I
should take up too much of your valuable parer. lam Sir,
your's, A TRUE REFORMER.