The Sun.
London, England, 1863-04-29 00:00:00

lONIAN ISLANDS,

Lord R. CECIL asked the Under Secretary of State for
war, when certain returns, ordered at the beginning of the
se, sion, concerning expenses incurred at the lonian Islands,
wid be laid upon the table.

Lord HARTINGTON replied that the returns rested
with the Colonial office, but he believed that they would
be ~upplied in about a fortnight.
AMENDMENT OF THE LICENSING SYSTEM.
Mr. LAWSON aako,d the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, whether her Majesty's Government
had abandoned the intention of introducing a bill for the
amendment of the licensing system during the present

session.
Sir G. GREY replied that he had been in comm •„.
tion with some of the parties who take a deep interest in
the matter, and he regretted to state that the result did not
leave room to hope that a satisfactory and acceptable mea.
sure could be successfully passed during the present
session.

Art"" ("DISTINGUISHED SERVICE COLONELS).
Gen. LINDSAY then rose to move " That an humble
address be Insetted to her Majesty, praying that she will
be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission to
inquire into the claims of 21 officers of the army, who
were promoted to the rank of colonel in 1855
and 1856, as Aides-do-Camp to the Queen, and for distin-
guished service in the Crimean war, who, by a recommen-
dation of the Royal c' mmission of 1858, which had reference
to another class of officers, have been deprived, to an undue
extent, of the position they attained by the promotion
conferred upon them ; and to report, to her Majesty
whether they were entitled to any redress ; and it
so, to
recommend in what form such redress should be accorded
to them.' The hon..and gallant member went at much
length into the voluminous correspondence on the matter,
and cited the sentiments of Lord Herbert and Sir G. C.
Lewis in support of the claims of those officers. The in-
quiry he proposed would be limited to the claims of those
officers who were licutenant-colonels before June, 1854.

Ile brought the case forward as one of public duty.

Col. NORTH seconded the motion.

Lord lIARTINGTON opposed the motion. He fully
appreciated the services of the distinguished officers speci-
fied, and considered them well deserving the promotion
they sought. The commission of 1858, composed of com-
petent authorities, after a careful investigation, finally die-
posed of the claims of the officers, and no good could now
arise from re-opening the matter.
Sir 5. PABINGTON said the warrant issued to carry
out the report of the commission of 1854 was not in accord-
ance with the views of that commission. It was no light
matter that officers who had gallantly served their country
with such distinction should feel themselves aggrieved by
the conduct of the War Office. All these gallant officers
asked for was inquiry, in order that Parliament might know
whether the injustice they complained of was well •founded
or not. General Peel, Lord Herbert, and Sir G. C. Lewis
had recognised the claims of these officers. The War Office
sow said it was inconvenient to disturb the harmony of the
army
list, but he believed the officers of the army would
rather that were done than that those deserving officers
should auffxerli injustice.
sstiee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. 2.1.3
Sir.
F. SMITH, as in support of the motion.
member of the Royal Commission
referred to, urged the ,1
stYof further inquiry.
Mr, KINGLAKE also:ipe keinfavour of the motion.
Lord PALMERSTON deprecated the habitual interfer-

ence by that house with the detailed management of the
army, because it was not a part of the constitutional func-
tions of the House of Commoas, or that th•2re should re
main on the public mind any circumstance that might give
rise to the opinion that irjustice had been done to any class
of deserving men. (Hear.) He ventured to suggest to the
hon. and gallant memter to withdraw his motion, and
thereby avoid committing the house to Ili y interference in
the detailed:military administration of the army, and that
being done, he (Lord Palmerston) w ould engage on behalf of
her Majesty's Government that a commission of inquiry
should issue. (Hear. hear.) The Government had no de-
sire to shrink from inquiry. . _

Mr. ',ISRAELI, whilst agreeing with the noble lord
with regard to interfering in the detailed management of
the army by that house, contended that they had a right to
bring forward any matter of grievance, and that in addre.s•
ing the throne in connection therewith, they were acting in
a perfectly constitutional manner. He thought, under the
cirzumstances, that the gallant member might leave the
matter in the hands of the Government.

Gcn. LINDSAY accepted the proposition of the noble
lord, and withdrew his motion.
COLONIAL MILITARY DEFENCES.

Mr. A. MILLS rose to call attention to the correspond-
ence which has recently been laid before Parliament be-
tween her Majesty's Government and the Governors of
Canada and of New Zealand reepecively, concerning the
military defences of those colonies, and to move an address
for copy of all communications which had passed since
the commencement of the year 18P,, between the Secre-
tary of State for the Colonies and the representatives of
the Crown in the British dependencies respecting the
mode and cost of their military defences. As regarded
Canada, a commission, coasisting of eight members, of
whom seven were Canadian", had last year recommended
that a militia of 50,000 men should be maintained in the
province, independently of a reserve force. The Parlia•
ment of Canada had, however, refused to sanction that bill ;
and the total force actually maintained at that moment was
no more thin 15,000, under one fourth of that recom
mended by the commission. The reason assigned for that
was that the Canadians did not consider themselves in peril.
Well, but if they were not in peril, for what purpose were
from 10,000 to 12,000 Imperial troops quartered in the pro-
vince ? The cost of the Imperial army in Canada for the
year 180,2 could not have been less than £1,000,000; whilst
the contribution of Canada to her defences was no more than
between £o'l,ooo and £70,000. Then, turning to the case of
NewZaaland, he found that the charge for the maintenance
of the army there was £520,000, while the contribution of the
colonists to the defences of the island was only £lO,OOO. He
considered it was high time that both the Canadians and
the New Zealanders should bear a much larger proportion
of the military expenditure necessary for the defence of the
two colcnies, and that the people of this country ought no
longer to be taxed for purposes purely colonial.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the facts which had been
brought before the house by the hon. member were of the
greatest importance, and he had no doubt if the matter were
thoroughly investigated, that it would result in a saving to
this country of three millions sterling. Whenever the
United States had any quarrel with this country the threat
of eeizng Canada was always resorted to,
Mr. C. FORTESCUE said he agreed in much that had
fallen from his hon. friend who brought forward the
motion with regard to the Government of Canada. It was
evident from the papers which had been laid before the
house that the Canadian Government had a very inadequate
sense of their duty as to the defence of the province
in the event of any danger occurring. The house would see
that an opinion to this effect had been frankly conveyed to
the Government of Canada with all the weight and autho-
rity which the Home Government possessed. But while he
said this, he did not wish the house to underrate the exer-
tions which were made by the Government and people of
Canada. Too little had been done, but still something was
done, and something more was in process of accomplishment.
The latest advices represented the volunteer system as being
carried on with great activity. Some 35,000 volunteers were
under training, and that number was rapidly increasing.
In addition to that, successful attempts had been made
to render the rural militia of Canada fit for service in
any emergency that might arise. The real difficulty in
military organisation arose in the rural districts, where,
owing to the intervals that occurred between one settle•
ment and another, and the population being thinly scattered
over a large area, it was found difficult to bring bodies of
men together for the purposes of drill and military training.
But what had been done and was doing was this, that the
officers and non-commissioned officers of the Canadian
militia in the rural districts had formed themselves into a
drill association, and no officer was allowed to remain on the
list of the militia without qualifying himself. His noble
friend at the head of the Colonial Office had in courteous
terms acquainted the Government of Canada, that nothing
would tend to place the defences of the province upon such
a footing of security as a measure of direct taxation. (Hear,
hear.) He now approached the vexed questicn as to the
proportion which the colony should bear in the payment of
troops and the means of defence. It was impossible to lay
down any definite rule on the subject; but it was important
to bear this in mind, that, while the mother country allowed
the greatest possible freedom to Canada as regards all mat-
ters of internal policy, still, as regards external affairs, such
as war defences, and the like, there was but one Parliament
—that of the mother country—and but one Government—
the Imperial Government—to whom all questions of peace
and war, and all the external affairs of the whole empire,
alone belonged. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to judge
fairly whether the present force in Canada ought to have
been sent there or not without taking into consideration the
prospect of war at the time the force was sent out. In Canada
at that time prevention was better than cure. The main
security which Canada had against aggression was the belief
that war with Canada meant war with England. In time of
peace her Majesty's Government thought that the Colonial
Government was bound to defend itself; and he believed
that, in spite of its past shortcomings, Canada would do its
duty when danger arose. The case of New Zealand was a
special one. When a war broke out there, it was not on a
question between the mother country and the great Powers
of the world. In that colony, Englishmen had settled in
in the presence of a warlike race. Ten years ago they were
given representative institutions ; and since then the policy
was recognised that, if the colonial Government waged a
war within her own frontiers, she was bound to carry it on
at her own expense. The double Government in New Zea-
land had failed to protect this country and the colony from
the dangers of a war, and her Majesty's Government were
now leaving the colony to defend itself, making it, how-
ever, responsible for the repayment of the advances made
for the maintenance of a local force in the colony, and the
construction of a military road which would be of lasting
advantage to it. He regretted that the correspondence with
regard to the other colonies was not in a state consistently
with the public service to produce to the house.
Mr. AYTOUN expressed his regret that her Majesty's
Government had changed tts colonial policy. Canada
was well able to defend herself with her two millions and a
half of population, 1,900 miles of railway, 7,000,000 of im-
ports and exports, and a revenue of £1,900,000. The expen-
diture of Great Britain for her naval and military force was
17s. per head, whereas in Canada it was about 4d. Great
Britain expended more on the defence of Canada than did
that colony for itself. The number of troops in Canada was
too small for any effectual purposes of defence; and if war
occurred additional troops must be sent out, or the army
would be humiliated by being obliged to abandon that ter-
ritory or be annihilated. Some of the Australian colonies
had voted large sums for their defence compared with the
£50,000 raised by Canada. If a war broke out with America
this country would have to drain its home garrison for the
protection of Canada—an event which no government:could
contemplate with satisfaction. He believed public opinion
was favourable to the continuance of our connection with our
colonies ; and he was anxious it should be maintained, from
its being advantageous to this country in a commercial
point of view. The Government was pursuing a perilous
course towards Canada.
Mr. ADDERLEY was of opinion that the papers showed
that we had come to a crisis in our relations with our colo-
nies, and that the Government had looked the matter boldly
in the face. We had now arrived at what he called the third
phaso of our colonial government. In the first we left the
colonists to themselves, only imposing restrictions on their
commerce which ,we thought at the time advantageous to
ourselves, but at which they revolted. The next phase was
when we attempted to govern the colonies from Downing-
street ; and the third phase was when we restored to the co-
lonies complete self-government, with constitutions more
a
free and democratic than our own, yet retaining in our
eter at hometi e
and the consequence was,
hands their protection and defence. That
. oov Government
and those in the colonies were at issue and diametrically
opposed to each other. The arguments of the colonies that
they had a claim upon us for their defence was a fallacy.
The argument that the foreign policy was in the power
of the home Government, and that therefore the colonists
were entitled to throw the whole cost of wars upon the
English taxpayer had not one shred of soundness about it.
It was certainly no justification for Canada merely present.
ing 15,000 volunteers as its quota towards the defences of
that part of the empire. He entirely agreed with the for-
mula, laid down by one well acquainted with the subject,
who said that every soldier sent to Canada represented 100
natives, who would recruit the defences of the colony if the
position of the question in New Zealand
soldier had not been sent. The hon. member proceeded to
criticise the
denied that the Constitution Act of 1852, in transferring to
the colonists the management of their own affairs, had re-
served to this country the native policy. It reserved it to
the Crown, and not to this country or to the home Govern-
ment. He cordially approved the course which the Colonial
Minister had taken with reference to the colonies. He only
regretted it did not go further, and had not been adopted
long ago, and he trusted that the House of Commons would
support that Minister without fear in the opposition they
would be sure to receive from the colonies until they saw
that this country was earnest in its intentions.
Mr. C. BUXTON knew no subject which was more de-
serving of the immediate attention of the House of Commons
than the defences of Canada. Undoubtedly the chance of
England going to war with what was formerly the United
States of America was quite as great as was her chance Of
going to war with any other country in the world, and
though every one must profoundly deprecate such a war, it
could not be denied that a feeling of the greatest irritation
,xgainst England prevailed among the people of the Northern

States, while it was much to be feared that this feelinh
would be greatly inflamedby the rematkab'e • r eches which
had been recently delivered in that house. Under these
circumstances, nothing could be more shortsighted than
to leave Canada in a defenceless condition, and so they had
no alternative but to keep up a large army there, and
spend vast sums in fortifications. At the same time, as re-
garded the general question, he was glad to hear the an-
nouncement of the Under-Secretary that evening that the
Government were about to start upon a new policy, and
that they were about to withdraw the troops as much as
passible from the outlying stations of the Empire.
Mr. MILLS expressed himself quite willing to withdraw
the motion if he received an assurance that the correspon-
dence would be produced as soon as it was completed.
Mr. C. FORTES'_ TIE said there was every disposition
on the part of the Government to disclose all the informa-
tion which might come into their hands on the subject re-
ferred to by the hon. member; but at present there was no
correspondence in a sufficiently complete form to produce.

The motion was then withdrawn.
THE CONSTRUCTION OF IRON-CLAD SHIPS.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE moved an address to her Ma-
jesty that she would be graciously pleased to appoint a
royal commission to consider the mode of construction and
form of the iron-clad ships which are to compose the future
navy of Engl end ; to report on the ships presently built and
building, and the amount of dock and basin accommodation
required for their use at home and abroad, The hon. ba-
ronet said there had been three reconstructions of the navy
in his time, but that which was now going on was by far
the most formidable of the three, while the responsibility
of the undertaking was cast on a department confessedly
overworked. Under these circumstances he came to the
house to ask for the appointment of a council of able men
selected to advise the Admiralty with respect to the re-
sults of the great ex periments which had been carried on
during the last few years. When the right hon. member
for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington) was at the head of the
Admiralty, he assembled about him a council very much of
the character he was now contending for, and the result was
a determination upon the forms of the Warrier and Black
Prince--ships which, as models of form, could not be ex-
celled, He went on board the Black Prince on her recent
return from a cruise of eight or nine months, and after in-
specting every part of the ship, he came to the conclusion
that a more extraordinarily durable structure he never
looked upon. It was as to the form of these ships that men
were at issue. They sailed very well before the wind, but
their extreme length and very limited powers. of steerage
stood in their way in action. The manceuvre of" wearing"
was practised on various oceasions.by the squadron at Lis •
bon, and in one instance there was an interval of seven
miles between the first and the last of the ships when they
came round. It was impossible to get these ships to the
wind, and it had become necessaryto fit them with auxiliary
steam power for the purpose of working their helms, which
could not be got to work at an angle of more than 37 deg.
without danger. These long ships were rigged with three
masts ; and while they continued to build their ships of such
an unwieldy size, the stature of the men who were to work
them remained the same. It passed his comprehension how
the class of men employed on board these ships could furl
the heavy sails or do anything smartly aloft. In his
opinion, it would be a better arrangement to have four
masts instead of three. Another objection to these ships
was the great diversity of size. It should be borne in
mind that nothing was more important in a fleet than
equality of size. (Hear, hear.) It would prcbably be
found that, while such vessels as the Warrior and Black
Prince would sail fourteen knots an hour, others would
hardly attain a speed of nine knots. The :secretary to the
Admiralty had lately given them a statement of what was
doing in the dockyards of France, and he believed she
was doing no more than acting up to the programme
which had been drawn up on the subject of the French
navy. With regard to America, the naval administration
had been completely unrestricted in the construction of
iron ships, and yet, with all the skill of her naval engi-
neers, they had not succeeded in building one serviceable
iron-clad ship. He had seen a very full description of the
American iron• clad vessels in a French publication. They
were divided into eight or ten different classes, and varied
in tonnage from 4,000 tons to 700 or 800 tons, and they
were of every variety of speed and construction. And yet,
in the recent action which took place at Charleston, nine
of these vessels were defeated, one was sunk, and the others
got off with difficulty. He wished to direct the noble
lord's attention to one of these ships, which more nearly
resembled the Warrior, because she refused to answer
her helm, and became unmanageable. The hon. baronet
then directed attention to the great advantage of
having a small class of gun-vessels, which, in the event of
the large vessels becoming unmanageable, and therefore
stationary, could sail close to them, and from points of im-
punity discharge 3001 b. shots at them. He next referred to
an imprudent paper, whichhad been issued by the Govern-
ment, casting reflection on the building of the ships in
private yards, and observed that while he upheld the prin-
ciple of the Government building wooden ships in their
own yards, in preference to private yards, from the fact that
their stocks of timber was always superior to the resources
of any private establishment ; yet, in the matter of the
building of iron ships, he thought there should be no objec-
tion to having them built in private yards until such time
as the Government had sufficient dock accommodation of
their own. No one who had carefully inspected the iron
ships which had been built in private yards could deny that
they were models of naval architecture. He begged to sug-
gest that the Admiralty should avail themselves of the
invention of the double screw, which was a very great
improvement. The double screw gave a vessel extraordinary
facility in turning, in going ahead or astern—in short, such
advantage as a man with two arms possessed over a man
having but one arm. There was another point which he
wished to press upon the Government, and that was the
necessity of providing increased dock accommodation. At
present they had not a dock in the world out of England
with the exception of one at Bombay where they could dock
a frigate, It was important the Government should turn
their attention to this subject ; for in the event of a war
the want of dock accommodation would prove a serious
impediment. The number of transports would keep the
mercantile docks in continual employment, and they would
not be available for the large iron ships of the Government.
The hon. baronet concluded with a protest against further
proceeding in the present mode of iron ship-building,
without first calling together the greatest practical autho-
rities of the country, and obtaining their opinions.
Lord R. MONTAGU moved as an amendment that,
with a view to provide for the economical construction of
ships for the royal navy, of the most suitable forms and
materials, the Board of Admiralty should be empowered by
Parliament to introduce: into the public service a class of
persons equal in education and position to the military
cadets of Woolwich, who might (subject to conditions)
ultimately fulfil the duties of Royal naval architects.
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY, having corrected several mis-
takes which he said occurred in the course of the debate,
said the Warrior had hitherto laboured under the defect
of not turning quickly to its helm ; but a letter which he
had from Captain Cochrane this morning showed that
this was likely to be got over, He would read an extract
from the letter : "You will be glad to hear that we
shall be ready for sea in a few days. We have
been fitted with hydraulic steering gear, by which one
person will be able to steer the ship, and to put the helm
over with the same facility at full steam as at slow. We
shall be able to turn the complete circle in six minutes,
which is a feat never yet accomplished by a vessel of its
size." The cupola ship was a more efficient ship than the
port-sided ship ; but in it there was one defect—the liability
of the gun to get jammed on the pivot as the ship listed In
the attack upon Charleston, the shot from the forts, as it
appeared to him, did not go through the turret towers, yet
the force of the shot was such as to jam the guns against
the pivots and so render them unserviceable. He did not

,hink that we could learn much from the attack on Charles•

ton, because the vessels that were in action were very dif-
ferent from our own, but they offered remarkable resistance
to heavy shot, some of them having received 90 shots and i
yet came out of action. We had no reason to be dissatis- '
fied with our armour •plated ships, which were superior to
any in the world. His only complaint was that they coat a
great deal of money. He thought it would not be advisable
for his noble friend to press his motion. He condemned the
Admiralty for trusting to the opinion of one man in matters
of shipbuilding, and recommended a hoard of five or six to
watch improvements and report thereon to the Comptroller
of the Navy.
Lord C. PAGET—I think it would be very unadvisable
to intrust the department of shipbuilding to such a board
as my hon. friend recommends. We have already got the
Controller of the Navy, with a staff of assistants, who has
charge of this department. This debate is a fair illustration
of the difficulties attendant upon shipbuilding, and ought
to convince the house that the proposal of the hon. baronet
to refer this matter to a Royal Commission ought not to be
agreed to by this house. lam quite aware that upon many
questions, such as the pay of the navy, the manning of the
navy, or harbours of refuge, the labours of a Royal Com-
mission are exceedingly valuable. But what commission
could make a report of any value on the construction of
ships ? During the Admiralty administration of my right
hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington) the question of shipbuilding
great deal of their attention, and the Government
p
a body of gentlemen of high talent, of whom my
right
pi
appointed
occupied a
oed n. friend the member for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) was
one. That committee, which was very like a commission,
male inquiry into the subject of shipbuilding. They com-
pared the French navy with that of England; they com-
pared the French dockyards with ours; and they came to
the Government with a proposal, which was the cause of
what was called the reconstruction of the navy. I nie:n to
impute no blame to my right hon. friend, but according to
the lights we now possess the vast sums then expended in
line• of-battle ships would have been better expended in iron-
caeed ships. (Hear, hear.) That vast expenditure was en •
tered into by the Government of which my right hon. friend
wasit, a member, and continued by the Government that fol-
lowed
very much in consequence of the report of this
committee.
Boyt
other
the time e
city,
and
reportedo ogrrreoawt
,progress
mhiatd-
bteeeen orraternission. were appointed, before t
they could get in-
' telligence or evidence on which they could found a report,
it might turn out worthless,
ebecans fromte dryly yesterday
to day the
makingnew xperimen
alter the
aAnd mi r
experimental t y ar e
wu
tried, which, if it willsucceeds,co
construction or rather the framework.--the uPPer worke—of