The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 1, 1863.

Lancashire that an unwillingness to labour is creeping on

the people— (hear)—and that, if we carry them thrOugla the

coming winter in idleness, there is no telling what the con-

sequences may be on the manufacturing populati, n of those
districts. And here again I quote the remarkable words of
the Emperor of the French. Ile said he dreaded the coming
winter with respect to his own manufacturing population—
(hear, hear).--and my hon. friend the member for Sunder-

land said, We do not dread the winter, though we know

great misery must be inflicted on our labouring population
if cotton cannot be obtained, and we desire, therefore, to

avert that calamity from our countrymen that must neces-
sarily arise from the continuation of the cotton famine. So
far the people have not blamed her Majesty's Government,
believing that the misery they suffered has not been caused
by any conduct of the Government, but that it h as been an
inevitable calamity ; but they are not now like the ignorant
people of former times, and I warn the noble lord not to do
anything that can be charged upon the Government as con-
tinuing the present suffering. I have to-day received letters
from Lancashire, stating that meetings have been held in 13
great towns in favour of the recognition of the South ; and
if the noble lord refuses to comply with the just demands of
the people, he will find his popularity tumbled down with a
gigantic ruin, and his small friends will follow with him,
(Hear, and cheers) I pray the house in all calmness to

consider this subject, and, as men of honour, justice, and
benevolence, to grant me the proposition I ask. (Cheers.)

Lord R. MONTAGU then rose to move as An amendment
that this house earnestly desires that an impartial neutrality

should continuo to be maintained by her Majesty's Govern•
ment during the present unhappy contest in the States of

Ncrth America. The noble lord said he could not allow
that the hon. member for Sheffield was more anxious than

ho was for the independence of the South, nor that he more
admired the noble struggle in which the South was engaged.
But if he desired to bring a question I:acre the house, it was

not to an Austrian Emperor or a French despot that he

would run for counsel. If he wanted advice, there were

plenty of members in that house who could give him better
advice than any foreign Emperor. (Hear, hear.) Instead
of facts and arguments, the hon. and learned member had
treated them to sneers and rhetorical artifices. (Hear.) He

asked them to rec guise the South, because the South was
successful ; that was to say, he was for interposing to pre-
vent the South of having the honour of achieving her own
independence. Then he put it to the house, could any

Power have been more insolent to England than the
North I—that was to say, the hon. member came down to
the house and endeavoured to stir up the bad passions of
the two nations in every possible way. But upon such a
question it behoved them to put aside all passion. (Hear,
hear.) How could they expect to be able to reason at all if

:heir eyes were blinded with passion ? He had heard the

story of the French despatch more than a year ago, but his
version was that the French Government being suspected
of playing a double game, Earl Russell, in order to test
their faith, showed the despatch to Mr. Seward, for the
purpose of proving that the French were intriguing secretly
against the North. Now his conclusion was that the French
Emperor had been merely making a cat's-paw of the hon.
and learned gentleman. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from
the benches below the Ministerial gangway.) He owned
he found himself somewhat in the position of Gen. Hooker
when he crossed the Potomac—whichever way he faced
there was an enemy before him, all retreat being cut off. The
hon. member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) supported re-

cognition on the ground of the horrible waste of human life
that was taking place ; but he always mistrusted those sud-

den desires to stop the effusion of blood. Why, our own civil
war had lasted tea years, and the civil war in the States of
South America had lasted 15 years. Was it always the duty
of England to stop the effusion of blood ? Had that always
been our principle of action ? What would they have said
if America, France, or Russia had attempted to aid the
Sepoys in their revolt ? Would they not have told them
angrily to cease from interfering ? If they would hearken
to the dictates of humanity, they should try to settle the
quarrel in the manner most conducive to the interests of
the Anglo-Saxon race, by renouncing all partiality for either
the North or the South. (Hear, hear.) A mere armistice
would only be productive of increased rancour between the
two sides; and if an armistice was to be proclaimed, how
were the limits of each to be defined ? The North was at
New Orleans, and the Southerners were in Maryland. In-
tervention could only end in war with the North, and that
was really what was meant by the hon. member's resolution.
Recognition without war would not bring even a single bale of
cotton from America ; and certainly war with America would
not increase the capabilities of Lancashire for maintaining
her starving population. (Hear, hear,) He reminded the
house that alliances to intervene always ended in misunder-
standings between the allies themselves, and asked if it were
not possible that, as in Mexico, as also inthis matter, France
might be seeking to pursue a selfish policy. (Hear, hear.)

Louisiana was an ancient settlement of France. What

the Emperor Napoleon again desired its possession. He did
not know how that might be, but he had heard rumours to
that effect. The hon. gentleman told them the South had
nearly achieved its independence. Why, then, should we
intervene ? We should remember to what it would expose
us—invasion of Canada, stoppage of the supplies of corn,
and the necessity of protecting British commerce in every
corner of the world. He did not appeal to British fears, but
he asked the house to remember what intervention would
cost. He would rather agree with Lord Derby, and believe
that the time had not arrived when it was either wise,
politic, or even legitimate, to recognise the South. That
was the conclusion to which he had come; he hoped it was
the conclusion to which the house would also come; and in
that hope he moved the amendment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. CLIFFORD seconded the amendment. He
believed that the noble lord had proceeded to a right con-
clusion, though on a false ground, when he said that the
Southern States were engaged in rebellion. As regarded
the general question, though he felt well disposed to both
sides, he could not disguise from himself that popular feel-
ing in this country was strongly in favour of the South,
and believed that the South was making progress which
would be crowned with success. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER next rose

and said—l am desirous, at the commencement of such
remarks as I have to offer, to take a lesson first from my
hon. friend the member for Sheffield, who told us in the
course of his speech that he had learned to bear with the
opinions of others. (Hear.) I wish to record my adhesion
to that sentiment. I will go a step further, and say I

think it is the duty of every man, of every member of
this house in a peculiar degree, and most of
all of every adviser of the Crown, in approaching
this question to use his best and utmost en-
deavours to suppress within his breast everything like
passion, to lay aside every vestige of feeling in return. Our
duty is to treat this matter as a matter of dry fact, and,
however passion and feeling may tend to intrude themselves
into the domain of reason, to strive to hold the balance even,
and deliver judgment with as much impartiality, as much
abnegation of selfish prejudice and all angry emotion, as if
we ware sitting on the bench of justice or in the box of the
jury. It is impossible, if we look at this as a matter of feel-
ing, not to see that the feelings with which we must regard
sowhichsthat from
e
it• are very mixed. If we take the case of the Southern
States, I think there can be few who do not sympathise
with a resistance as heroic as ever has been offered in the
history of the world on the part of a weaker body against the
overpowering and vastly superior force of numbers. But, on
the other hand, if we look at the case of the South from that
point of view in which it stands so intimately connected with
the profession, at least, of strong adherence to slavery, a
strong counter-current of feeling would arise in the mind ;
and I quote this circumstance because I think that, upon
the whole, we are really without excuse if, in a case so mixed,
and where different considerations tend so powerfully in
opposite directions—l think we should be the more without
excuse if we suffered our judgment to be bewildered by
strong sentiments of partisanship on the one side or the
other. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) And so also with regard
to the North. I think it is impossible for any Englishman
who justly views this matter, whatever may have been his
prejudices against American institutions, not to have a
strong fellow. feeling for those who formed in their own
minds exalted visions of the great future of their country,
stretching
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and Ivh
other,
entering into and pushing on this war, even after, as it
seems to us, to have passed all bounds of reason and of
hope; however much there must be in their measures and
their language which appear to be difficult to reconcile with
the high intelligence which usually characterises them. I
venture to say that I differ from my hon. and learned friend,
for I think that we ought to be veryecautious as to giving
British interests a prominent place lathe argument. (Hear.)
For my own part, T never have concurred with those
who thought that it was a matter of high British inte-
rest that the old American Union should be torn into
pieces. Ido not agree with the hon. and learned member
when he says that the American Union had become so
vast and so menacing to the world that we were in danger
of dwindling beside it, or of having weakened our power
of maintaining our rights. Ido not think that territorial
extension,
though it adds to magnitude, necessarily adds
to the vigour of a State. (Hear.) Ido not for a moment
or any other country
admit that either England France,oerlati
y were losing ground
in Europe, had lost powerur
nitedveSLotres, or were less able
in comparison with the
every just claim, and exercise every
than heretofore to assert
legitimate influence, in the face of the United States. I have
always had the individual opinion, involve England was
d as
not so much in mere interest as in consideration of duty and
honour, with regard to the British North American Colo-
nies, that the balance of States of the
politicsold
Ameri-
can Union, which caused the whole of American
to turn upon the relative strength of slavery and Northern
interests, offered a state of things perhaps more favourable
to us, perhaps more likely to ensure the continuance of
peaceful relations in America, and the avoidance of all poli-
tical complications which might have arisen in connection
with the relations between this country and our colonies—
than that state of things whieh would arise in America if
it were to happen that the old American Union should
divide into a cluster of Northern and a cluster of
Southern tates. That cluster of Northern States,
having lost all connection with the slavery interests
which was formerly adverse to extension northwards
would have fair and strong motives to endea-

your to re-establish their territorial grandeur by

uniting themselves to the colonies of British North Ame-
rica. Whether that opinion is sound or unsound, I can-

not help stating with confidence that if we were strongly to
put forward the consideration of British interests in this
matter, and if we were to found arguments for recognition
of the South upon the plea that British interests required

it, and that British interests are threatened by the great-

ness of the American Union—by that very fact you stamp

on every argument for recognition, on every tendency to-
wards recognition, on every expression of a wish for peace,
"• •

some character of hostility to our brethren in America.

',Hear, hear.) lam sure my hon. and learned friend will
reel that I am warranted in alluding to this subject in a

pointed manner, after he has declared, in connection with
his motion for recognition, that he is determined to do all

he can, on the ground of British interests, to prevent the

rec9nstruction of the American Union,

The first and

broadest objection which it is my duty to take to the motion
is one which I must take also to the amendment of the

noble lord. Either the motion or the amendment would
involve the assumption by the House of Commons of that

which it is perfectly entitled to assume in point of right if it
thinks fit, but which the House of Commons has not

thought it expedient to assume, and which I do not think
it would be expedient for it to assume—l mean the affirm-
ing by positive declaration in this house the course which
should be pursued by the Executive Government, when it
is the Executive Government alone, and not the House of

Comm,ns, which could have close and private cognisance
of every circumstance from day to day bearing on the con-

dition of this contest, and on the position of England in re-

gard to it ; and when, therefore, it is the dictum of pru-
dence and policy to leave in the hands of the Executive

Government that direction which it claimed. There was

no merit to be claimed by the Executive Government for
that which it had done or omitted to do, but 1 say that set-
ting apart all reference to this or that question of interna-
tional or maritime law, which may hitherto have arisen,
and looking to the general policy which has been pursued—
a policy not of indifference, not of unobservance, not of
blindness, but of faithful and strict neutrality up to the
present moment—that policy which has been pursued

by the Government of England has been a policy answer-
ing to the conviction and de-ires of the country. I hope

1-e house will not be disposed to entertain either the ma

tion or the amendment, which would have the effect of de-
termining beforehand, by rules laid down in set phrase—
from which there would be no power to depart, whatever
the variation of the circumstances, or however strong the
dictates of expediency and right—the course which the Go-

vernment is to be bound to pursue, but rather leave it to
the Government to act in the same spirit as heretofore, and
with that regard which it has endeavoured to show both to
the justice and policy of the case, and also to the opinions
and wishes of the country. (Hear.) Ido not say that the
issue of this contest is, humanly speaking, in any degree
doubtful ; but during the whole period that the war has
lasted there has not been a single point of time on which
you could lay your finger and say that at that point of time
there were depending military issues of such vast import-
ance, and upon which so much depended with regard to the
position of the parties and the wishes and intentions of
the belligerent Powers. That the particular moment at
which the hon. gentleman has made his motion is in some
respects unfortunate, I think will not be denied; but there
is another thing for which the hon. gentleman is to be held
responsible, and that is the speech that he has made. The
hon. gentleman came before them like a lamb, ready to offer
himself a sacrifice to the storm of obloquy he anticipated.
I rather pity a gentleman who takes up such a cause with
such a prospect ; but that is a trifling matter compared
with the importance of the rest of his speech. The hon.
gentleman himself is too candid to deny that his speech ex-
hibited strong and almost passionate partisanship of the

South. That of itself would render the course he advo-
cated imprudent. It is no easy matter to separate inter-
vention from recognition; but, if the former were to be at-
tempted, any strong Expression of partisanship would
prevent its receiving any attention. The honourable

gentleman went a little further, and urged upon us
our duty to the men of Lancashire. Well, what does
that mean ? Recognition would not relieve the men of
Lancashire, nor necessarily bring a single bale more cotton
into England. " These men," says the hon. gentleman,
" have been patient hitherto, hut they know that it is the
Government, and the Government alone, that keeps from
them that by which they earn their bread." The meaning
of that is, that if his motion were adopted there would be
an immediate and abundant supply of cotton. I cannot
agree either with his motion or his reasons. At the same
time I admit it to be impossible for the Government to feel
indifferent to the grave question before us. I believe it the
all but universal feeling in this country that this war
should cease. (Hear, hear.) Never was there a war of a
more hopeless and deplorable character, whether measured
by the terrible absorption of human lives—not counted in
hundreds, but in hundreds of thousands—or by the la-
mentable waste and destruction of treasure and property.
(Hear, hear.) What, too, will it bring in the future ?
There will be a dreadful bitterness between the black and
the white in the North. There is also the probably break
down of the old landmarks between right and power in the
North. (Hear, hear.) I say again that we anxiously
desire to see the end of this war. I believe this country
could never be justly charged with any unworthy jealousy
of the prosperity of America ; but if there ever were any
amongst us who, to indulge in such a feeling, closed their
eyes against all that was good and full of promise for man-
kind, they must now feel compassion and concern surpass-
ing every other sentiment. Even the sorrow we feel for
our unemployed operatives must be swallowed up in that
grief we feel for the fearful price the Americans are paying
for this awful war, and the sacrifice they are making of
their blood, their treasure, and their political institutions.
(Hear, hear.) We believe here that no war is just where
the object is unattainable; we believe also that the restora-
tion of the Union is not possible, and, therefore, that the
war is unjustifiable ; we believe also that the emancipation
of the negro race will never be effected by force
and bloodshed ; but did the hon. gentleman think on
that account that we ought to adopt his motion ? I have no
doubt he believes it would shorten the war. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman says " Hear," but what is it to be ?
Recognition with intervention, or without? I cannot agree
that the war of 1778 broke out in consequence of the recog-
nition of America by the French. The terms of the message
from the King to the House of Commons were, that in con-
sequence of the French having concluded a treaty of com-
merce with the States of America the King had desired the
withdrawal of the French Ambassador. The error made by
the noble lord (Lord R. Montagu) is very common, I know,
but all the documents of the period show that it is totally
untrue. The right hon. gentleman then referred to the docu-
ments, and read extracts from the Annual Register. Inter-
vention so usually accompanies recognition, that it requires
great caution, in proposing the latter, not to be supposed to
include the former. Notwithstanding that America is c.en-
stantly declaring her independence of Europe, I believe the
well-ascertained voice of Europe would have great weight
with her ; but I do not think that France and England join-
ing together to demand the recognition of the South could
be confidently said to represent the voice of Europe. (Hear,
hear.) No act of interference, arbitration, recognition, or
anything else, will ever have any effect unless we show the
Americans that we enter upon it free from all partial views.
An unasked intervention just now would be considered an
interference with the private affairs of America, and would
bring up that united spirit of defensive power, the absence
of which up to this time has so strengthened the hands of
the South ; for, whatever other errors the American descen-
dants of our ancestors may have committed, it cannot be said
that they have not shown great, signal, and even splendid
personal courage. The responsibility of producing such an
effect is in my opinion a very heavy responsibility, and we
must look in some sense to the immense difficulty of taking
steps in a matter of this kind, and we must feel that so long
as doubt exists that doubt ought to be ruled on the side of
safety. (Hear, hear.) We feel, with the hon. gentleman
the member for Sheffield, it is time this war should end ;
but I confess I have more faith in the gentle action of public
opinion, as it grows and is gradually matured in Europe,
than I have in diplomatic acts that may tend to assume the
appearance of undue interference in American affairs, and
especially of that coming from quarters which may justly
be suspected of selfish motives. (Hear.) It is not from
indifference, or from any belief that there is an adequate
and ample object on the part of the North in pursuing this
war, that I for one venture to deprecate in the strongest
terms the adoption of the motion before the house ; but do
not let us run the risk of making worse that which is al-
ready sufficiently horrible—(hear)—and of adding to that
which now exists other feuds and other follies, that might
carry a wider desolation over the face of the world.
Mr. FORSTER seconded the amendment of the noble
lord, because he thought the motion of the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield was such a departure from the policy
of neutrality as ought to be protested against by that house.
He was glad the question had at last come before the house,
because the time had arrived when it should be known
whether they intended at any time to interfere in this war,
or whether they would now interfere by a premature recog-
nitionbi
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With regard to the statement that had been made by the
honourable and learned member for Sheffield with
reference to his interview with the Emperor of the French,
Baron Gros had, since the statement was made in
that house, gone to the Foreign Secretary, and assured
him that the hon. and learned member was mistaken in
what passed, and that there was no foundation for his
statement. (Cheers.) It might possibly be that the hon.
and learned member had been instructed by the Emperor of
the French to sound the British Parliament, and ascertain
if we were willing to follow in the lead of the French Em-
peror. (Hear.) lie (Mr. Forster) considered we had had
enough of French alliance for intervention in cases likely to
lead to war, and he instanced the Crimean war and the
affairs of China ; but, happily, we had got out of the Mexi-
can intervention. Whatever might be the feeling of this
country with regard to Poland, he looked with fear and
suspicion whether danger might not arise with regard to his

kind efforts for Poland. They had heard a great deal about

drifting into war, and the best way to prevent it was by not
allowing the hon. and learned member for Sheffield to put
the ship England under the guidance of w foreign pilot.
(Cheers.) Intervention, or the attempts at Intervention,

had always weakened the peace party in America. Therpro-

position of an armistice had the effect of passing the Con-
scription Bill, and the publication of Lord LyonS despatch
again strengthened the war party. A great deal depended

on what they did whether power was given to President
Lincoln and those wb o encouraged the war, or to the peace

party. There was risk of war in such a resolution as that

before them; and what kind of war? The war was to be

dreaded because of danger to Canada, because of danger to
the commerce of the country, and because of danger for the
food of the people; but, above all, it should be unpopular

because it would be a war against our own kinsmen, and in
support of slavery. (Hear.) He owned he felt strongly
upon the question, for he was one of those brought up from
his childhood in the hyprocritical cant alluded to by the
hon. and learned member fur Sheffield. (Ironical cries of
Hear, hear.) He denied that the question of free trade

had anything to do with the origin of the struggle. The

State of Louisiana, which might be said to be foremost in

the contest on the side of the South, desired protection
for its sugar plantations; while none had fought harder

to maintain the Union than the free trade states of the

North-west. In truth, the contest was for slavery, and the
boundaries of the Secessionist territory were identical with
the boundaries of the slaveholding districts, He was not
going to justify the action of the North with respect to
slavery ; on the contrary, his hon. friend behind him (Mr

Bright), who had characteriszd him as a fanatic on the

question, knew that he never endorsed the views of his hon.
friend on the subject of America. Nay, he even went

further, and maintained that this terrible war was the

dreadful lesson which both North and South had to endure

for what they had done in respect of slavery. But the truth
was, the North had to choose between slavery and the exist-

ence of the mother country ; and, moved by a patriotic feel-
ing, the old love of slavery was renounced for the sake of the

great Union. The hon. member then read an extract from

the Richmond Examiner of the 28th May, to prove that the
leading object of the Confederate struggle was the mainten-
ance of slavery, and it was mere trifling to say that if the
Southerners succeeded in the war they would not carry out
the objects for which they went to war. As to the past his-
tory of the 'Union, he had no hesitation in asserting that
those acts of which England had most reason to complain
were mainly directed by the men of the South. He looked

to the capture of Vicksburg with the greatest interest, for
ne believed the peace and freedom of America depended on
that event. If Vicksburg was taken, that was an end of
all prospect of extending slavery across the Mississippi ; and
that object accomplished, the men of the .North, seeing the
impossibility of keeping so vast a territory in subjugation,
would draw a cordon round the slavehelding States, and
leave it to themselves to settle the question as best they
might. He confessed he dreaded a war with America, not
mainly because of the suffering, which it would entail upon
our people, but because of the results of our success. There
was not a despot in the world who would not rejoice over
such a contest ; and where was the Englishman so degene-
I ate as to regard that result with indifference ? Such a war
would be selfish and unprovoked', and it would be antago-
nistic to the spirit of true religion and morality. (Hear.)
Lord R. CECIL, although not often able to agree with
the hon. member for Birmingham, was able entirely to con-
cur with him when he described the hon. member for Brad-

ford (Mr. Forster) as a fanatic on the question of slavery
He confessed he had never been able to understand the ream
_ _

soning of the anti-slavery party in this country. The hon.
member who had just sat down did not profess to hope tha
the North could conquer the South, although the hon.mem.
ber for Birmingham did hope to exterminate slavery by tha
means, The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was most remarkable, because it was the first exposition of
the policy of the Government; but the question which
pressed upon him was why, after conceding every one of
the positions maintained by the hon. and learned member
for Sheffield, the right hon, gentleman had not assented to
the motion. The suffering of their own people was their
title to interfere, and France and England had but to pro-
nounce the word to contribute enormously to the re-estab-
lishment of peace. He did not know whether it occurred to
the house, but it struck him as most remarkable, that the
Chancellor of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made
no reference to the statements of his hon. and learned friend
as to the policy of the Emperor of the French. The Go-
vernment might rest assured that the matter would not be
passed over. (Hear.) The house should have an answer
to the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman. (Con-
servative cheers.) They knew that the Emperor of the
French, whatever else he might be, was a prudent and
sagacious sovereign, and he would not have adopted this
strange and extraordinary course of communicating directly
with the House of Commons—(cheers and counter-cheers)
—if he had not been driven to it by the treatment he had
received from the Foreign-office. (Conservative cheers,
with cries of "Oh, oh," from the Liberal benches.) He
believed the public would not be eatisfied unless the state-
ment to which he had referred received a full and ample
explanation, or until the Government gave an adequate
reason why they did not act upon the frank and open offer
of the Emperor of the French, and justified themselves be-
fore the country for following a policy which had led to so
much misery. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT—Sir, I cannot attempt to follow the noble
lord into the elaborate attack which he has made upon the
Treasury bench, for two reasons—that he did not appear to
me very much to understand what it was he was charging
them with, and because I am not in the habit of defending
gentlemen who sit on that bench. (Laughter.) I shall ad-
dress myself to the question before the house, and which I
think the house generally feels to be very important,
although I am quite satisfied that they do not feel it to be
practical, or one on which they will be disp ieed to take the
course recommended by the hon. and learned gentleman
who has introduced the resolution. We sometimes are en-
gaged in discussions, and have great difficulty to know
what they are about; but the hon. and learned gentleman
left us in no kind of doubt what he meant this should be.
He proposes a resolution which, under certain circumstances
and addressed to certain parties, might not be offensive or
injurious, but which, taken in connection with his character,
and the speech he has made to-night, and the speeches he
has recently made elsewhere on this subject, leads to the
same conclusion as if he had proposed an address to the
Crown, inviting the Queen to declare war against the United
States of America. (Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, who is supposed not to be very zealous in the parti-
cular line of opinion which he has adopted (laughter)—ad-
dressed the hoe, and learned gentleman in the smoothest
language possible; but still he was obliged to charge him
with the hitter hostility of the tone of his speech. (Hear,
hear.) He told us to-night that the American people and
the American Government were overbearing; but he did
not tell us that the Government of the United States during
his lifetime had been conducted by his friends of the South.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman then said,
" The North will never be our friends. Of the South you
can make friends. They are Englishmen—they are not the
scum and refuse of Europe."
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that he had said "that the
South were Englishmen, but that the army of the North
was composed of the scum of Europe.'
Mr. BRIGHT—I take the hon. and learned gentleman's
explanation, with this observation, that there is not in the
paragraph, and I think not in the speech, a single word
about "army." But I will take it for granted that, if the
hon. and learned gentleman said what I have read, he
greatly regrets it. (Mr. Roebuck dissented.) The hon,
and learned gentlemsn, in his resolution, speaks of other
Powers, but ho has unceremoniously got rid of all the
Powers but France. He comes here with the story of an
interview with a man whom he describes as the great ruler
of France, He states to us a conversation, and asks us to
accept the lead of the Emperor of the French on what I
will undertake to call one of the gravest questions ever sub-
mitted to the British Parliament. (Hear.) But it is not
long since the hon. and learned gentleman ho:d very dif-
ferent opinions. (Hear.) I recollect in this house, only
about three years ago, the hon. and learned gentleman said,
" I hope I may be permitted to express my opinion, even
though it should affect so great a potentate as the Emperor
of the French," (Laughter.) On another occasion he said,
though not in this house, " I am still of opinion that we
have nothing but enmity and bad faith to look for from the
Emperor of the French ;" and he went on to say that though
he had been laughed at, he still adopted the patriotic cha-
racter of " Tear'em,'' and was still at his post. (Great
laughter.) When the hon. and learned gentleman came back
from his expedition to Cherbourg, does the house recollect
the language which he used on that occasion ?—which, it it
expresses the sentiments he felt, I think he might have been
content to have withheld. Referring to the salutation
between the Emperor of the French and the Queen of these
kingdoms, he said, " When I saw his perjured lips touch
that hallowed cheek"—and now the hon. and learned gen.
tleman has been to Paris, introduces there by the hon.
member for Sunderland- -(laughter)—and he has become,
as it were, in the palace of the French Emperor, a co-
conspirator with him in dragging this country into a
policy which I maintain is as hostile to its interests as it
would be degrading to its honour. (Hear.) Then the
high contracting parties, I suspect, are not agreed, because
I will say this, in justice to the French Emperor, that there
has never come to him, in public or from his Ministers, nor
has anything been written, that has been tinctured in the
smallest degree with that bitter hostility which the hon. and
learned gentleman has constantly exhibited to the United
States of America and their people. France, if not wise in
this matter, is at least not unfriendly. The hon. and learned
gentleman, in my opinion, I am sure is not unfriendly, and
I believe he is not wise. (Laughter.) But on that subject,
without speaking disrespectfully of that great potentate,
who has taken the hon. and learned gentleman into his con-
fidence, I should say that the Emperor runs the risk of be-
ing far too much represented in this house. We have got
two, I will not call them "envoys extracrdinary," but
" most extraordinary." (Laughter.) If report speaks true,
even they are not all. Why, the hon. member for King's
County (Mr. P. Hennessy) came back the other day from
Paris, and there were whispers about that he had seen the
great ruler of France, and that he could tell everybody in
the most confidential way—(laughter)—that the Emperor
was ready to make a spring at Russia for the sake of de-
livering Poland, and only waited for a word from the Prime
Minister of England. I do not understand the policy of the

Emperor as thane new Ministers declare it. Because one
gentleman says he is nbout to mhke war with Russia, an-
other that he is about t ) make war with America. lam
dispo,ed to look at what he is already doing; and I find
that he is holding Rome against the opinion of all Italy—

(Hear, hear, and No from Sir G. Bowyer)—that he is con-
quering Mexico by painful steps, every footprint marked by
devastation arid blood ; that he Ia warring—in some desul-
tory manner, it /nay be—in China, and, for aught I know,
may be about to do it In Japan. Well, I say, that if we were
to add Ittssia and the United States, and that he is to engage
in this dismemberment of the greatest Eastern empire and
the great Western republic, he has a greater ambition
than Louis XIV., and greater daring than the first of
his name ; and that, if be grasps these great transactions, his
dynasty will fall and be buried in the ruins of his own am-
bition. I can only say one word on the question to which
the noble lord the member for Huntingdon has devoted so
much attention; but we have not heard all the story from
Paris; and, what is not remarkable, seeing that the secret
was confided to two person=, we have not heard it correctly.
(Hear, hear.) I saw the hon. member for Sunderland in his
place ; his face under went divers remarkable contortions
during the speech of the hen, and /earned member for Shef-
field, and I felt perfectly satisfied that he did not agree in
what his colleague was saying. It now turns out that there
is a written document which gives a memorandum of what

was set down; and I suppose, some time before this discus-
sion ends, we shall have it, and see how far the two hon.
gentlemen are agreed. I think the question of so much in-
terest, that, after hearing one story, we ought to hear the
other. Leaving that which might be considered personal,
I come to the proposition which the hon. and learned gen-
tleman has submitted to the house, and which ho submitted
to his Sheffield constituents on the 27th of May, put into
these words, and in these words I am willing to receive it
—" What I have to consider is what is for the interest of
England, and what ie for her interest I believe to be for the
interests of the world." The hon. member said the honour

of England had something to do with her interests, and that
the whole case of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield

rested on a miserable jealousy, or what might be
termed a base fear—a fear as groundless as any other panic

by which the hon. and learned gentleman was from time to
time seized. He pointed out the groundlessness of the fear
that the United tAates as a confederation would join toge-

Cher for aggression against England or any other country

of Europe, and said the hon. and learned gentleman, as an
experienced member of the House of Commons, ought to
consider welt before he spread abroad these needless
alarms amongst the people. For such fear and miserable
jealousy he would break up a friendly nation, formed as
it were of our own flesh and blood, depart from all the
usages of nations, and throw the weight of England into
the scale in favour of the curse of slavery. With regard to
the usages of nati( ns, no one could read the recent pamphlet
by F. W. Gibbs without being convinced that England had
three kinds of interest in this question, viz., the commercial,
the political, and the moral. With regard to the supply of
cotton, very few men were more interested in it than him-
self, and not more than three or four had studied the ques-
tion more deeply then he had done. The point he was going
to argue was that the war now going on was more likely to
abolish slavery than anything else in the world. The supply
of cotton must at all times be uncertain under the slave
system. The house thought so some years ago, because
they ordered a commission upon the subject, and but for a
very silly Minister they would have sent a commission to
India. Would it not be conceded that it would be better
that the cotton cultivation should be by free than by slave
labour ? The slave States were not half cultivated. There
was not more than 10,000 square miles of cotton planted,
and they only sent cotton over at a rate of 100,000 bales in-
crease per annum, whereas the manufacturers wanted
double that quantity. Tho reason was that where there
were slaves no other labourers went. None of the emigrants
who landed at the Northern ports ever went South. The
difficulty now with a Southern planter was to buy his
labour, for he had not to hire his hands only, but to buy
them, and to buy 200 negroes would cost £20,000. That
was but one item, so that but few men could enter into the
trade. Ile believed that in less than 10 years after freedom
had been declared the production of cotton would be
doubled. Upon the political part of the question, he did
not mean to say that the South might not conquer the
North, and join that large party in the North which some
persons called the peace party, but which was in reality not
a peace party at all, and so form one large united king-
dom. He hoped it would not be so; and, as he believed
in the moral government of the world, he did not believe
it would be so. But should that happen, America, with
her mighty navy and almost unlimited power, might offer
to drive England out of Canada, France out of Mexico, and
out of the islands of the West Indies all those who might
be interested in them. They would thus have a State built
up of war and slavery, instead of that other State founded
upon an instructed people, upon general freedom, and upon
morality in the Government. (Much laughter.) Much had
been said about the carnage of the war ; but adding the
French to the English, and those to the Russians, Sardi-
nians, and Turks, there were more killed in the Crimean
war than in the civil war in the States. In that war the
poor victims were sent 3,000 miles away to fight for a worth-
less and undefinable cause, and when he spoke of the car-
nage then, he had been charged with maudlin sentimen-
tality. In America, however, every man knew well for what
he enlisted, and for what he was sent to fight. (Hear, and
a laugh.) Every year before the war broke out 150,000
used to be born to the badge and doom of slavery—born
(according to laws framed by the devilish cupidity of man)
to the lash, the chain, and the branding-iron. He did not
know whether hon. members felt as he did, but when he
went home and found six little children all playing on his
hearth—(laughter)—it called up the most holy joys that be-
longed to the memory of the past, or the hopes of the future.
(Hear, hear.) If when the hand of death took one of those
household treasures their hearts were filled with sorrow,
what must be the aggregate of the multiplied grief
amongst the parents of those 150,000 poor infants born and
brought up amongst these " gentlemen" they heard so
much of—" the chivalry of the South"—those men whom
we were advised to make our friends? (Hear, hear.) Did
the house so easily forget the countless 5 genies that be-
longed to the thousand horrors of the slave system before
the commencement of the war? (Hear.) It was all very
well to say that slavery was not so bad as it had been
represented ; but the brother of the honourable mem-
ber for South Durham told him not long ago of one
woman in South Carolina, whose every child to the num-
ber of ten had been taken away frcm her and sold as soon
as it had reached a marketable age. (Rear, hear.) He had
not heard that night anything about President Lincoln's
proclamation, but we were not in a position to deny its le-
gality, As we only recognised in America one nation, one
president, and one law, that proclamation was a legal do-
cument, and the slaves of the South by it were now virtually
free. For upwards of two years the North had contended
for its existence and human freedom, and it was the first
country that had come forth as the defender of freedom
and equality. Yet the hon. and learned member for Shef-
field wished to throw the hostility of Europe into the scale
against them. The effect of a war would be to ruin our com-
merce, and at its termination that great and free people, the
most instructed—(oh, oh)—in the world, and the most
wealthy, would have left in their hearts wounds that pro-
bably centuries would not heal, and which the posterity of
some of those who heard him might look back upon with
amazement and lamentation at the course that had been
taken by the hon. member for Sheffield and those who sup
ported him. He hoped the house would not assist his coun-
trymen to lift their hands or voices in aid of the most stu-
pendous act of guilt which history had recorded in the
annals of any race. (Cheers, and Oh, oh.)
Mr, P. WINDHAM supported the recognition of the
Southern States, and concluded by moving the adjournment
of the debate. (Cries of " Adjourn," and for Mr. Lindsay.)
Sir G. GREY, after referring to the statement made
by the hon. member for Sheffield, said ho was unable to
give any explanation of it, and all he could say was that
what the hon. member had stated was at total variance
with the information her Majesty's Government possessed
of what had passed between the two Governments ; and,
further, Baron Gros had called upon Lord Russell, and
had informed him that he had received no such instructions
from the Emperor as had been stated by the hon. and
learned member for Sheffield. (Hear, hear.) His hon.
friend the Under-Secretary did not know what had oc-
curred when he answered the question in the House of
Commons that no such information had been received. But
there certainly was ne breach of confidence in impart-
ing to Mr, Seward the communication from the Emperor
of the French. All that happened with reference to the sub-
ject he could not precisely say, but this he knew, that the
receipt of the despatch was no secret at the time. It was
discussed in the newspapers, and it was answered in cour-
teous terms, of which the Emperor had no reason to com-
plain, and of which he never had complained. No doubt
the despatch of Lord Russell was communicated to Lora
Lyons, that he might be fully possessed of what was pass-
ing in Europe with respect to the contest in America ; but
so far from there being any secrecy with regard to it, why,
the very first day of the meeting of Parliament it was laid
upon the table of the house. He must say Lord Lyons was
utterly incapable of the conduct imputed to him, and that
throughout he had acted in a manner even to justify the
high esteem of the American Government.
Lord R. CECIL said he had no intention of imputing to
Lard Lyons any act that was contrary to official duty. He
was merely repeating the statement made by the hon. mem-
ber for Sheffield in the early part of the evening, but he had
no desire to charge him with having broken any order from
the Foreign Office. No doubt, whatever Lord Lyons did
was in strict conformity with the orders addressed to him
by the Foreign Office.
After some observations from Mr. NE WDEGATE in
strong antagonism to the resolution,
The debate was then adjourned.
In reply to Mr. ROEBUCK and Lord R. MONTAGU,
Sir G. GREY was uLderstood to say that the discussion
could be renewed on Monday; but
Mr. ROEBUCK said he would bring it on in going into
committee of supply on Thursday.
POISONING BILL.

Lord RAYNHAM having moved the second reading
of this bill,
Sir G. GREY moved that the second reading be post-
poned until that day three months, which was carried
without a division.
CORPORAL .PUNISHMENT IN SCHOOLS BILL.
Viseount itAYNHAM moved the second reading of

this bill, and stated that its object was to put a check on
cruel schoolmasters, who like Mr. Squeers--(laughter)—
permanently improved children by savage punishments.
The bill provided that only a birch rod should be used for
the purposes of chastisement. (Laughter.)
Sir G. GREY opposed the bill, and urged that the low
already reached persons who, having the charge of children,
were guilty of excessive punishment.
Lord H. TREVOR moved that the bill be road a third
time that day three months.
After some conversation,
The motion was carried without a division, and the bill
lost.

The Metropolitan Main Drainage Guarantee of Reply-
inent of Money) Bill, the object of which is to guarantee
£1,200,000 in addition to the £3,000,000 already guaranteed,
was passed through committee.
The Public Works (Manufacturing Districts) Bill was
read a third time and passed.
The Poor Law Board Continuance Bill was read a second
time.

The Lords' Amendments to the Prison Ministers Bill
were agreed to, with a few exceptions.
The Loan Societies Bill was read a secor d time.

The Howth Harbour, Newcastle-upon-Tyne (St. Mary
Magdalen Hospital), the Removal of Irish Poor, the Sa-
vings Banks Act Amendment, and the Courts of the
Church of Scotland Bills were read a third time and
passed,
The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad-
journed at ten minutes past two o'clock.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

CARLISLE EACES.-rUESDA.Y.

The Corby Ca3tle Stakes of 5 sovs each, with 30 added;
weight for age ; penalties and allowances. T.Y.C. 4
subs.

Mr. J. Osborne's The Little Stag, 2 yrs, Est 121 b
(Carroll) w.o.
A Maiden Plate of 40 sovs each; weight for age ; with
selling and other allowances. T.Y.C.
Mr. winteringham's Lady Braybrooke, 2 yrs , sst 121 b
(30) (Carroll) 1
Mr, J. Ridley's Hospitality, 2 yrs, sst 121 b (£3O)
Mr. Miller's Annabella, 5 yrs, Bst 131 b (£2O)
(J. Snowden) 3
Mr. Dryden's Forest Queen, 5 yrs, 78t 51b (£4O)
(Speight) 4
Mr, Blamire's Marksman, aged, 9st llb (£3O)
(W. Gamble) 5
Mr. R. Prank's Dick Swiveller, aged, 9st llb (£3O)
(Withington) 0
Betting-6 to 4 agst Lady Braybrooke, sto 2 agst Hos-
pitality filly.
Won by a head ; a length between second and third ; a
moderate fourth. Dick Swiveller was left at the post.
The Cumberland Plate (Handicap) of 100 soya, added to a
Sweepstakes of 10 sovs each, 5 ft, and 3 only if declared ;
winners extra; second to save his stake. Twice round
and a distance. 32 subs. 14 declared.
Mr. Masterman's Honest John (late the Robber), 3 yrs,
sst Blb (J. Grimshaw) 1
Mr, Jaques's Trump Queen, 3 yrs, sst 81b .... (Carroll) 2
Mr. T. 6. Dawson na. The Fawn, 3 yrs, .sst 71b (car. sst
81b
Mr. J. Scott na. Luna, 3 yrs, sst 71b J Marson) 4
Mr. W. I' Anson's Caller Ou, 5 yrs, 9st 71b (inc. 9113 )
ex.)
(inc. 5
Betting—Even on Caller Ou, 6 to 4 agst Honest John, 6
to 1 agst any other.
Won by a length; two lengths between second and.
third ; three lengths bet ween third and fourth.
The Grand Stand Handicap of 50 sovs, for all ages ; win-
ners extra. Once round.
Mr. Scott na Teddy, 5 yrs, 7st 111 b (in. 51b extra)
(Speight) 1
Mr. Jaques's Trump Queen, 3 yrs, Est 41b...... (Noble) 2
Mr. W. Cowen's Giltnook, 4 yrs, Est 121 b (Carroll) 3
Mr. Fearon's Interest, 6 yrs, 7st 121 b
Betting—Even on Teddy, 6 to 4 agst Trump Queen, 5 to
1 agst any other.
Won by three lengths ; a bad third.
The Holm Hill Stakes of 3 sovs each, with 30 added,
weight for age; with selling, &c., allowances; penalties.
Three-quarters of a mile.
Mr. Winteringham's Lady Braybrooke, 2 yrs, sst 121 b
(£3O) (J. Marson) 1
Mr. Robinson's Prairie Flower, 3 yrs, 7st 91b (E3O)
(J. Noble) 2
Mr. J. Ridley's Bolton's dam filly, 2 yrs, sst 71b (£3O)
(Carroll) 3
' Wallachia, Barbara Allen, and Maid of Chesterfield also
ran.
Betting-5 to 4 agst Prairie Flower, 9, to 4 agst Lady
Braybrooke.
Won by a neck, a bad third, The winner was bought by
Mr. Dalaell for 63 guineas.

RACING FIXTU:
Ju:

Worcester Summer 2
Newmarket July .. 7
Liverpool .. 13
Abingdon 14
Hungerford l6
Pontefract 16
Stamford ..16

Aul
Brighten
Brighton Club 6
Lewes
,
Wolverhampton
Reading
Wenlock l4

SEPTI
Devon and Exeter 1
Derby Summer
Weymouth
Kings Lynn.. 3
Warwick
Leicester lO
Doncaster l5

OCT,
Coventry
Bedford
Caledonian Hunt
Newmarket S. Oa ..12
Novl
Worcester 3

Bellewstown
Down Royal Corporation 21

[RES FOR 1863.

AUG

Heath....
Wicklow ll

Winchester ......21
Nottingham . . 21
Southampton. ......22
Cambridge .. • 23
Knutsford
Hartlepool .....
Goodwood 22

York August .....18
Plymouth
Egham
1 Stockton 25
Oxford
Lichfield
:MBER.

SEP

Curragh ,,, 1
Carlow
Listowel 2l
OCT,

Wordsley
Brecon ....21
Richmond ..... ...22
Monmouth
Manchester Autumn. 25
Newmarket Ist Oct. 29
Edinburgh, &c. Club 30

Lincoln Autumn ..20
Kelso 21
Gloucester 22
Newmarket Houghton 26
TIBER.

Shrewsbury Autumn....l6

r LT.
j Tramore •••• 30

Curragh

rUST.
i Londonderry

:BEE.

Limerick
Jenkintown Park 23

13E11..

20

COUNTRY MARKETS.

-4 -
LEEDS—TUESDAY.
To-day there was a moderate supply of wheat, which
met a limited demand, at rates nominally the same as the
previous week.
---
MARKET HARBOROUGH—TUESDAY.

White wheat, 49s to 51s; red, 40s to 47s per 36 stone.
Malting barley at —s to —s per qr. ; grinding, 30s to 358
per 30 at, Oats, old, 26s to 275; new, 21s to 28s per 21
st. ; beans, 37s to 43s per qr.