The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS,
.MA I- 5.
ROYAL COMMISSION.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, and Lords SHAFtESBURT an,
DUNCANNON, took their seats on the Woolsack at five o'clock,
and, as Commissioners, gave the Royal Assent to the Conso-
lidated Fund Bill; Lancaster and Preston Railway Bill ; S.hel
field and Manchester Railway Bill ; Leeds and Derby Rail-
way Bill ; Manchestei and Leeds Railway Bill; Liverpool and
Manchester Railway Bill; Whitby and Pickering Railway Bill;
Birmingham and Gloucester Railway Bill; Preston and Wyre
Railway Bill ' • Preston and Wyre Docks Bill ; Edinburgh
Police Bill.; Cardiff Gas Bill; Cardiff Improvement Bill ;
Stamford Waterworks Bill ; Streatley and Goring Bridge and
Road Bill ; Manchester ( Victoria Park) Company Bill ; Wer-
neth and Littleborough Road Bill; Llanwrst Roads Bill; Shef-
field and Halifax Road Bill ; Gardiner's Divorce Bill ; Ashby
and Hellington Inclosure Bill ; Rapallo's Naturalization Bill ;
Solari's Naturalization Bill. The Commissioners then retired.
The LORD CHANCELLOR shortly after took his seat on the
Woolsack.
Lord BROWNIJOW presented a petition from Grantham,
in favour of the Local Courts Bill.
Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON, and other Members of the House
of Commons, then brought up the York and North Midland
Railway Alteration Bill, and several other Private Bills.
Earl FITZ WILL I A M presented petitions against Church-
rates from parishes in Yorkshire. .
CHURCH-RATE PETITIONS.
The Bishop of HEREFORD presented petitions in favour
of Church-rates from a place in Ilereford, which he said was
signed by all the inhabitants of the town, except two, and he
would take the opportunity of stating to the Noble and
Learned Lord (Brougham), that according to a late report of
the number of petitions and. signatures respecting Church-
gates, that in favour of thcm was much the larger. It set-forth
that the petitions in favour of them were .582, against them only
153; the signatures in their favour were 56,000, and against
them only 32,550.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the Report alluded to was
only the last of a number of reports, which, if taken
together, would show a widely different result from that stated
by the Right Reverend Prelate.
The Bishop of LONDON remarked that numbers of those
presented against the rates had been presented twice.
After a few words from Lard ROLLE and Lord BROUGHAM,
the conversation dropped.
Lord RODEN presented petitions from St. Anne's parish,
Dublin, and other places, against the Irish Municipal Bill.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented several petitions
in favour of Clint-eh-rates from parishes in Cardiganshire, and
from various bodies of operatives.
Lord RE DESDA LE prsented a similar petition from Bath
:we understood).
Lord W HARNCLIFFE presented similar petitions from
Selby and other places in Yorkshire.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from 570
inhabitants of Oxford against the Oxford and Great Western
Union Railway.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from
Caine against Church-rates. •

UNNECESSARY OATHS.
The Duke of RICHMOND moved for a Select Cern-
mittee to inquire into the expediency of substituting declara-
tions for oaths in certain cases. In 1834 and 1835 measures
to a certain extent to the effect he sought had been adopted,
and his .object was tb see how far the experiment had been
successful; he did not wish to interfere with the Cotirts of
Justice, but desired to get rid of oaths as far as it was expe-
dient to do so.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that in Ireland the
practice of taking unnecessary oaths had been discontinued in
a great measure.
The motion was t'-en agreed to.
Lord TEYNHAM moved for certain returns relative to
the working of the Poor-law Amendment Act. There had
been upwards of 100 petitions presented to the ocher House
against that Act, signed by 124,000 persons. It was,
therefore, necessary, in order to allay the excitement which
prevailed upon the subject, that information of the hctual work-
ing of the measure should be laid before the House, and
through it before the ountry.—Agrccd to.
THE PENITENTIARY.
Lord DUNCANNON moved the third reeling pf the Pe-
nitertia 1' Bill.
The Duke of RICHMOND hoped the Noble Lord would
postpone the passing of the Bill for a few days. He wished To
know if the Secretary for the Home Department had attempted
to carry the recommendations pf the Committee on Prism
Discipline of last year into effect before the Bill was passed.
It was the more necessary, because within these few weeks he
had been informed that a wretched man who Lad been sen-
tenced to death in the metropolis, was not executed in forty-
eight hours, as formerly. That was in consequence of a
Bill of last year ; but he was certain that it never
was the intention of the framers and conductors of that Bill,
that persons so unfortunately situated should pass that extended
time in reading the periodical newspapers of the day.
It was their intention that the criminal should spend
that time in meditation and prayer, in order to prepare himself
for the awful change which he was about to undergo. It
ought to be a rule in every gaol in the country, that after a
man was executed he should not be allowed--( Laughter)—
he meant after a man was ordered for execution he should
not be permitted to hold converse with any one save
his relatives and legal advises, nor see any newspapers.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) Such a practice
,was much calcu-
lated to give a man hope ; it distracted his mind from his fate ;
and in the instance he alluded to it had most probably led the
unfortunate man to practice a systc m of deception even to the end.
There was another circumstance of a most disgusting nature
which took place at Gloucester, where the executioner,
being in a state of intoxication, after he had executed
the individual, struck him on the face by way of making
the matter a laughing stock to the mob. These matters re-
flected great disgrace upon the character of the country, and
he begged to ask whether any inquiry had been instituted on
the part of his Majesty's Government ? He hoped the Noble
Lord would accede to his proposition to put off the third read-
ing of the Bill.
Lord DUNCANNON had no objection to postpone the
second reading of the Bill. With respect to the questions
put to him by the Noble Duke, lie begged to say that he un
derstood it to be the intention of his Noble Friend, the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department, to introduce a simi-
larity of discipliner into all the prisons in England and
Wales—( Hear)—as soon as he had received the neces-
sary information to enable him to take steps for that purpose,
He felt equally disgusted with the Noble Lord as to the cir-
cumstances which had occurred in the• metropolis during the
last week, and he regretted that any person in the situation of
that unfortunate individual should be made an exhibition of to
all classes of persons. With respect to the third point, a
communication had taken place with the Sheriff of the county,
and no answer had yet been received ; but lie hoped on a fu-
ture day, when moving the third reading of the Bill, to give
the Noble Duke the requisite information.
Lord SEA GRAVE corroborated the statement of the Noble
Duke, with respect to what had taken place at Gloucester.
Lord MELBOURNE said the sheriff was the executive
officer, and was responsible fur the manner in which the exe-
cution had been conducted.
The Duke of RICHMOND had merely called the atten-
tion of the House to the matter, as he thought it necessary and
proper,

The Church Notices Bill, on the motion of Lord GODOL-
PHIN, was read a second time.
IRISH MUNICIPAL BILL.
Viscount MELBOURNE then moved that the House do
go into Committee on the Irish Munieipal Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose and said, that lie per-
fectly understood the motive induced, by which the Noble
Viscount had thought proper. to say no more than to
move that the House do resolve itself into a Committee on
th-e Bill. Statements had been made heretofore on the subject
of this measure, and he would be glad if it were in his
power to follow the example of the Noble Viscount
not to address the House on the motion ; however,
it was necessary that he should detail the course which he would
recommend the House to adopt, and the reasons why he would
recommend it, and the reasons also for which be himself
should vote for that course. He had stated on former
occasions the strong objections he had to the Bill, and his
opinion that the House could not adopt its principle ; and the
more he thought of the subject, the more he felt. renvinced
that it was impossible for their Lordships' House to give its
consent to the measure. It was perfectly true that it was
the general opinion of a number of their Lordships that
it was right to put an end to the existing Corporations in Ire-
land. He thought that there were some Noble Lords who be-
lieved that this was not necessary, but the majority of them
could not concur in that opinion. It was true that those Cor-
porations had been originally formed to protect the Church.
In his opinion, that object ought never to be lost sight of. It had
been doubted whether that opinion was so unanimously adopted
as it was in former years ; but he would venture to say that
what was the policy of the Church of England in Ire-
land was still the policy of this country.—( Hear, hear. )
It was' the policy which his Majesty was sworn to maintain
—( Hear, hear, hear)—it was the policy which every
Member of that or the other House of Parliament
had sworn to maintain by the oath he had taken—according to
ancient, and modern policy—according to the uniform policy
of the country for the last 300 years, the maintenance of the
Church of England in Ireland was the common object.--( Hear. )
The Bill welit
sto
,e,aalaliaka very. large number of Corpora-
tions in Ireland—and the mode of formation of those Corpora-
tions was to be by giving votes to the very lowest class of
the population of those towns to which the Corporations were
to be graltcd.—( Hear, hear.) This was not to be done
upon any evidence Of their pessessing Property—not
as in England, merely upon the ground of residence,
or payment of rates. It ivas to be done simply upon the oath of
the party claimii.g the qualification, that they had such quali
fication of 51. or 101. as proposed by the Bill. This would
give rise to a system of perjury which would be extended
to all parts of the country. Corporations to to so framed by
persons holding the franchise only upon the!r -own swearing,
and without any evidence of property, was a system upon

Aim /establishment could be safely founded--(lk
He ould ask their Lordships to refer to the declara-
tions of those, who, if they were not the determined
enemies of the Church, were at least its constant
opposers, and whom they found. • on every occasion,
making every possible exertion against it. Did they not hear
.hose persons declaring that if they obtained the hlenicipnl
Corporation Act. all their other dernamis must fellow ?
He (the Duke of W.) was convinced that eieb meads' be the
case A great deal had been slid of the abselues neeeseh vof
establishing such a system in Ireland, because a aimrl.nr sp. tent
had been established in England and in Scotland. Now, in
:he first place, the two countries different were totally dirent in
their circumstances ; but if such was the case, he ,wished
to know why they would not establish these Corporations ott
the same footing as the English and Scotch Coeporatiens?.
He wished their Lordships to 'advert for a moment to the
distinctions between the system in England and Scut_
land, and that in ireland. In England, the frandatien
of the whole system was proof of the possession of prop rt,./
by the payment of rates and residence.. In Scotland it iris
the same, with the exception tha in England one tenement
gave the qualification, while in. Scotland it was the ace emulated
possession of tenements of ltd., and a residence of a year, be-
fore the franchise could be obtained. In Ireland, hewever,
the case was different—there was no proof of the
possession of property reqaired, nor was -the payment
of a single shilling in the Shane of rate necessarv.
When he addressed their Lordships the other eveuime, be hild
stated as one objection to the Bill the power of imposi :sr taxa-
tion, as being to be exercised by those Corporations for the pur-
pose of forming a borough fund, and their Lordships weed
recollect that he had also stated that the Corporations had the
power of raising a rate to form a born:Sigh fund on the
principle of taxation according to the 9th of George IV.,
—namely, a graduated scale of taxation, increasing to a
most enormous amount upon the increase of property.
lie would beg of the House to advert to the Act of Parlia-
went to enable. any borough in Scotland to provide for its
corporate expenses—paving, lighting, watching, eroviding
water, and other expenses of that description. But what
did that Act provide—" That the persons acionting that system
wider the Act, should have the power or voting for it
in an assembly called for that purpose—that assem-
bly to be composed of persons having ten pound houses,
and those having houses of a certain value had power of giving
a second vote ; and the adoption or nun-adoption of the
system under the Act depended for that borough upon.
the votes of those persons ; and if it were not adopted
it could not be carried in:o execution."—(Hear.) He
begged their Lordships to compare that system with that
which the Noble Lord proposed to be carried into effect
in Ireland. First of all, persons of no psopert v were to elect
those by whom taxation was to be laid on.—('Hoar, hear.)
In forming Corporations in Ireland greet care should be taken
that no injury should be inflicted on any Establishment now
existing—( Hear, hear, hear)—that no Establisloneet
should be formed which could he poaeibly injurious
to the Church ; and in the next place they should take great
eme not to give an influence which would be paramount, to
those most decidedly opposed to the Protestant religion.
He felt it his ditty to state that he for one never could consent
to the present Bill, or any other based upon the same prin-
ciple. He had voted last year for the amendment proposed
by a Noble Friend of his, and which had been surported by a
Noble and Learned Friend, who is now unfortunately ab-
sent; but he was at present unable to propose any amend-
ment of the same description, because he found that that
amendment had been objected to in another place on two
occasions last year, and that the same measure had been again
sent up to their Lordships during the present session. The
last communication that House had with the (Abel- House
of Parliament upon this subject in the ' course of the
last Session, that House had declared its hope that a
means might be found upon some future occasion to
enable the two Houses to co-operate in establishing *system
of local Government in Ireland. Their attention he been called -
to the subject at the commencement of the present session
in his /Majesty's Speech from the throne, and the House had
given an answer in conformity with his Majesty's desire.
Accordingly two Bills have been presented to Parliameut—one
relating to the Irish Church, and the other having for its ob-
ject to make a legal provision for the poor people in Ireland.
He did not wish to enter into a premature discussion on the
measure relating to the Irish Church, lately presented to Par=
hament ; hut having seen a general outline of that measure,
Ile could form an opinion of its object. Although it departed
from a resolution adopted on a former occasion, it appeared to
hint to be a measure more harsh than the resolution itself,
and probably more likely to be injurious to the Church. The
measure before proposed went to dispose of a surplus which
never existed, and which was never likely to exist. The
measure now proposed was a composition ; but it gave the Este-
I lishment a fund called a Surplus, which was to deprive the
succass ms of those who held benefices of one-seventh of their
incomes, fur the purpose of applying that fund to another fund
for what was called " educational purposes." • lie certainly
could not see any great improvement in this Church measure.
ut it held out a hope to him that as the
,original measure had
been changed, £0 might this second one be also. Ile had heard
it stated that these measures Avers founded upon the construe-
lion of Acts of Parliament and upon public records; but, in
his opinion, that construction which hail hetet put upon-them
ores not the 'Tactical construction witi.:ll caplet to be eivem
That being the case, he should hope that if his Yiejetty's
Nlioisters found that they had made an erroneous calculation
upon this matter, they would give to these clauses their most
serious consideration, and save themselves from the necessity
of calling upon men who had been already sufficiently de-
graded and disgraced in society to m..ke forther sacrifices.
He trusted that their Lordships would see the hardship of
taking off fourteen or fifteen per cent. of the income of the
clergy. He therefore hoped that the reeult o'd tine discussions
on this measure, in that and the other house, teight at last
produce that which they were all desirous of setahlire-, namely,
that of a safe measure of tithes to relieve Isolated front the
difficulties in which she was placed. He wished and heered,
he would repeat, that such a measure, when brought forward
and considered on its own grounds, might be found sufricient
to establish something of a syst. m of tithes te relieve the
Church of Leland flap a part of its distress. It that hope -
lie was desirous of considering, of some means of c aoyiug
such a measure iota execution. Besideg the measure respect-
ing tithes in Ireland then under the consideration of the other
House, there was another likewise far estaLlishing a legal
provision for tic poor in Ireland.—(licar, bear.) He was
perfectly aware of the great diffienlty which attached to
that measure. [The Noble Duke here made some remarl;s
on this Act, of which, from the eircurnatance of the Noble
Duke standing with his back to the Gallery, we were laze_
vented from collecting the purport ; avid lurked, throw bout
his Grace's speech, we found great ditlieulty iiihearing what
he said.] In the hope that this measure would have the effect
desired, he w s anxi• us to postpone the c nisi:leo:tine of the
Bill then before the House to some future period, is order
•
that their Lordships might have time to consider the measure •
—to wit, whether the othce Bills were such as to give•SOCUrity
to the Church and to society generally in Ireland, and to
satisfy themselves that the franchise would be exercised by per-
sons of property, who ought to exercise such franchise. And
if such were the case, the House • might then co-operate with
theflouse of Commons to perfect a system of local government
intlrt land. With these views, he would conclude by asking
their Lordships to adjourn the considerotion ed.. this measure to
some future opportunity, fie wished to induce tine House to
have both the other measures brought under their deliberation,
and therefore he would submit that fur the word " now," there
should be substituted the words " on the 9th day of June
next."—(Cheers front both sides.)
The question hiving been put from tire woolsack,
Viscount MELBOURNE said Ine'presumed that some in-
ternal policy of party, or some reason which remained within
hitnself, with which-he ( Viscount Melbourne) - Was not ac-
quainted, had induced the Noble Duke not to give some infor.-
mation of the intention which he had declared in the cenclusi4l
of his speech ; because be really considered, from the course
which the Noble Duke had pursued, Lc apprehended that the
proposition made, and the proceeding altogether, were of a
nature which :Ass quite novel in Parliament:my' history, and
new io itself. Knowing that there were considerations of
great moment with respect to, and involved in, the measure
before the House, and knowing, too, that there were con-
siderations of still greater weight to be borne in mind with
respect to another House of .Parliament, he thought it would
have been—(setting aside all feeling of courttsy)—it would
have been well if some time had been gisen to the considera-
tion of the subject, which was one of great importance, and
the proceeding of .he Noble Duke was one, %%Nib, as far as
his experience and recollection reached, was entirely new and
unprecedented in Parliamentary history. The proposition of
the Noble Duke went to this,. that until their Lordships
should see how the House cf. Commons would deal with the
other questions which they knew to Le before it, and under
its consideration, they sliettld postpone the discussion of this
Bill. Tim ir Lordships were bound to. consider that acre
the motives which could induce them to pursue this course. He
(Viscount M.) 'had stated that though theee them mea-
sures were alluded to in the Speech fron tine Throne, he
did not consider them to be connected er united together, or
in any degree dependent upon one- another. In the fist
plats, what was it that the Not Duke offered as en
argument to induce their Lordships to agree to Oda proposi-
Won? . Supposing that they agreed to tine proposition, what
had they Wimp for the. future in respect to the measure it-
self? The Noble Duke objected to geing into Connnittee.
lie had urged no objections to the measure except upon
such points as were matters for consideration in Committee.
He had taken an objection, as before, to the second reading,
_bee:au-se the franchise wits not sufficiently guarded. . The
-Noble Duke overstated the fact when he said that the consti-
tuencies would consist of- the lowest of the population. lie
objected, too, to the right of taxation founded upon the
Act of 9 George IV. c. $2. That very Act the Noble
Duke desired to extend to all the loans in Ireland: ha
did not object to the scale of taxation, and the persons
by whom it was proposed the 1 antes ehouid be elected.
The. present Bill proceeded upon the prlnciple that per-
sells rated by the vesfry upon property el the value of
51. should he entitled to vote. To this
.an objection had
been raised ; but this, and others raised by. the Noble Duke,
Were precisely those which might be considered in Com-
mittee, and, therefore, it was not nccesslry On the present
occasion to enter into them. But, atter all, these points were
entirely to be overridden and set aside by a distinct declarsta
tin whick the Noble Duke had made against the principle of •
the Bill. He said he was againsothe priaciple of the Bin.
and that he never could accede to it, nor to any other founded
en a similar principle. How web it possible to accede to the
proposition made, when, from what the Noble Duke hrinself
said, even if they were to put off the measure, it could only
be done in order to have it ultimately rejected or changed, or
altered to such a degree as to render it impossible to accept
or to make it worthless ? And what did he spy more?
Why, the Noble' Duke said that theut
thatirishChurchoßuitliawhauspnne
the highest degree objectionable, but it I:cltl