The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 4, 1863

for the future, as we had abundant means of obtaining more
than we needed from our own possessions.
Mr. SMOLLETT doubted if a motion like this, un-
accompanied by any practical suggestion, was likely
to be productive of a useful result. In his opinion the best

and most effectual course would be to apply to all lands in
India sui able for the culture of cotton the principle which

had been adopted in Bengal under what was known as the

Cornwallis settlement.

Mr, COBDEN said he wished to address a few words to
he right hon. gentleman the Secretary for India, in the

hope of inducing him to go back to the practice of former
times, but which in this and another case had been departed
from. Now, on the last occasion in which the question of
India had been brought forward by the hon. member for
Poole, the right hon. gentleman abstained from speaking

until so late an hour that no discussion could take place.

Again, on the China debate, the UndEr• Secretary for Fo-

reign Affairs declined to speak at all, so that there was no

debate, Now, the goad old practice was, that when the po-
licy of the Government was arraigned in a well-considered
statement, in a speech moved and seconded, it was the duty
of the Minister representing the department arraigned to
vindicate his policy, and make a statement to the house,
The business of members in that house was to criticise, and
if necessary correct what they believed to be erroneous iu

the policy of the Government. But if the right hon. gentle-
man sat in his place listening to the complaints of the hon.
member for Dumbartonshire and others, hon. members
would have no upportunity of making any comments upon
his statement. In his opinion, that was the best practice
which prevailed up to the last few months ; besides, it was
more respectful to the house, and more consistent with the
despatch of business. They would have another Indian
debate, because the right lion. gentleman had not spoken
earlier, and there would be a debate on China next
Monday, because the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs
had not spoken on a former occasion. It would seem as
if they were coming under the influence of M. von
Bismark, and that they only came there to receive the
orders of the Government. The honourable gentleman
who spoke last had found fault with certain members for
adopting a different language in that house from what they
employed elsewhere. But he did not know anybody who
was more open to the same imputation than the hon.mem-
ber himself. He remembered the hon. member had attended
a meeting in Manchester at which Mr. Cheetham presided,
and upon that occasion the hon. member did not spare the
Secretary of State for India nor the Indian Government.
Much had been talked and written about the happy state
of India under the British rule, but the ryots in that coun-

try suffered many hardships from the oppression of the
native sub-collectors, who levied annual assessments (sel-
dom the same in amount two years running) in the name of
the British Government, who had become the most gigantic
absentee landlords in the world. Unless some encourage-

ment were given it was idle to expect that people would
speculate in cotton-growing in India when in the Western
valley of the Mississippi some of the most fertile land in the
world could be had by the asking for 3d per acre, and 160
acres for £2, merely the cost of the survey. The hon.gen-
tleman then quoted from a despatch of Sir C. Wood, of June
9, 1862, in which he refused to sanction the reduction of the
assessment in favour of persons who intended to try the ex-
periment of cotton-growing. That was a piece of cold-

blooded indifference to the interests of his country that, had
there been an opposition in the house, would certainly have
led to his impeachment. He had also issued a most absurd
regulation, that where a person wanted to buy land he was to
deposit the costs of survey, and after the survey the land was
to be put up to auction. Fancy a man paying the Govern-
ment down the expenses of a survey merely for the privilege
of bidding at an auction. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman also

quoted Mr. Crawford, author of the " Indian Archpe-
lago," to show the improvements that had taken place in
Ceylon, and what great changes would take place in India
by the adoption of a similar system. He did not
come there in forma pauperis, but he came to demand of
the Government, as their duty, that they should use
every endeavour to avert the consequences of the present
calamitous war in America.
Mr. FENDER wished to inform the house that there was
great misapprehension in England as to the reported large
amount of cotton now existing in India only waiting to be
sent for. It was not the case. The production of cotton goods
in 1860 and 1861 was great. In the latter year it amounted
to 80 million sterling, of which 40 millions were for export,
but it was not more than the demand of 1858 and 1859 war-
ranted the trade in believing would be required for our home
and colonial trade, including India and China. In 1858, the
exports were equal to four yards per head. In 1859, it was
five yards. In 1860 and 1861, it was four yards. And in
1862, it declined to 21 yards per head, showing conclusively
that the stocks on hand were not occasioned by an over
supply, but from a diminished demand owing to the high
price asked by the importers. He looked forward to a bene-
ficial change, and expressed his belief that the demand for
cotton at remunerative prices would create an adequate sup-
ply. (Hear, hear, and cries of " Sir C. Wood.")
Sir C. WOOD complained of the manner in which he had
been treated by the hon. member for Rochdale, and of his
being called upon to speak so early in the debate, which
would prevent his answering any statements, however erro-
neous, that might be put forward by those hon. members
who might follow him. He admitted the importance of the
subject, and he repeated what he had said on many former
occasions, that we must look to India for our great supply
of cotton. The hon. member for Stirling was in error rela-
tive to the importations of cotton from Egypt. During the
first three months 233,000 cwts. only were imported.
Mr. CAIRD said the Board of Trade returns gave
2,209,000 cwts.
Sir C. WOOD said the quantity was 233,000 cwts., and in
the first five months it was only 381,000 cwts. He denied
that ho had always discouraged the growth of cotton in
India. His impression had been, and was still, that we
must look to India for the bulk of our supply, but he had
been afraid of stating too largely his expectation from that
quarter. The supply could not come all at once, but must
be gradual, because it was impossible to divert the cultiva-
tion of a large quantity of land all at once. He still believed
the supply would come, because the stimulus of remunera-
tive prices was given to its growth in India. That was the
only thing necessary to produce it, and was the principle
which the Manchester school had always advocated, and
which he had invariably supported. They had always
urged that all trades should be left to themselves, and they
would take care of themselves, and that was the principle
which her Majesty's Government was now applying to
India, believing it was as sound for that country as for any
other part of the world. (Hear, hear.) The result of all their
inquiries had been in that direction, and the ryots had said
they wanted no other protection than high prices. It was
said the circumstances of India were exceptional, that the
landlords were despotic, and, therefore, that the Government
were bound to teach the natives how to grow cotton. But it
was quite a mistake to suppose the natives did not know how
to grow cotton; they know how to do so perfectly well. Talk
of the miserable condition of the ryotsl why the hon. mem-
ber opposite (Mr. Smollett), who surely might be considered
to know something of India, asserted that the ryots were in
no such condition. Some time ago a series of most able letters
were published by a Mr. Smith, a stockbroker at Liverpool,
who made the tour of the cotton districts of India, and what
was his account of the state of the ryots, especially of the
ryots in the Bombay presidency? He said their state was
excellent, so far as the occupation of land was concerned.
The Government was called upon to do something for the
production of cotton in India, but not a single suggestion
had proceeded either from the hon. hember who had made
the motion, or from any other quarter, as to what that
something ought to be. Never before had he heard a com-
mittee moved for without the motion being based upon
some practical suggestion. He fully admitted that there
was one duty incumbent upon the Government, that
of improving the means of communication in India--(hear)
—but ho had done his utmost to promote that object. It
was ridiculous to talk of making experiments with respect
to the growth of cotton in India. Cotton was a natural pro-
duct of India, and the cotton of America was actually de-
rived from India. For years cotton had been grown in
India, not only for home consumption but for exportation
to China and elsewhere, and nevertheless gentlemen talked
as if the experiment was now being tried for the first time.
Not many years back the Company tried the experiment of
bße u to inf ti
they del;
growing American cotton in India, and it was established
y
dispute
r e l o
look to
it could
Indiabe for l
ar
ge Successfully
suppliesgrow ofn cotton there.
they might depend upon it such expectations could only be
fulfilled by the cultivation of
cotton upon land subject to the
ordinary rent. lie was hwahrodly . n office when he was waited
upon by a deputation,
was to alter the mode of lee
i
mn
pI
rnodvi
ea
d,
communicationand the other
throughout
o madeig rhoe duties
reference.n to the necessity for
twdutsuponrecommendations—
one
cotton
i
ughoutr once sent out to Mr.
the country. As re-
garded the first, instructions were
Wilson, and matters were placed upon
uat' factory foot-
ing; and in respect of the second,he
admitted then, as he
admitted now, that it was the duty of the Government to
P
improve the communications as speedily as
ossible
at the same time he warned the deputation that there' But
at was
t
an ample supply of cotton close to the seaboard, and that
great improvements were required in the method of pack-
ing and cleaning Indian cotton, which must be left to the
operation of private enterprise, and which the Govern-
ment could nut undertake. He promised to have the
communications with the interior open by the time these
improvements were initiated. Hon. members ridiculed
the notion that the natives had not much to learn as re-
garded the cultivation of their land ; but there was
abundant evidence that the ryots cultivated the land fairly,
and in a manner adapted to the capabilities of the soil.
It was nonsense to say they did not know how to cul-
tivate the land ; at all events they knew how to do it quite
as well as the small holders in Ireland. As for the com-
plaint that they had dune nothing to make the people of
charges
India acquainted with the demand which had sprung up in
this country for cotton, why, in February, 1861, the Go-
vernment of India sent round commissioners to inform the
people of the demand there was, and to distribute seed. The
three heavy
ton in India, which
grounds, that he considered Offer of prizes for the
the
production of cotton useless • that he did not see the neces-
sity of making experiments
to buy up cottosnnfo thegrowth of cot-
ad been established 20 years ago; and
gentleman said that, 60 raora•
Part of the business of Govern-
mentlity in the matter,the natives. The right hon.
had nsa ens was he to give every faci
oflar©d to give astiistapce to

agents going out to India to purchase cotton by recom-
mending them to the local officers in the beat localities for
their operations. He had however received no applications
to afford such assistance. The agents of the European

spinners bad followed the American planter to his home,
and by offering an increased price for improves; cotton, had
vastly increased the supply. The same course of proceeding
would produce tho same result in India, and if that was
not done the Government, who had offered every facility,
ought not to be blamed. Another suggestion which had
also been alluded to was that the land tax or rent should be
remitted on land which produced cotton. That, however,

was a perfectly mistaken notion, and the scheme was, in
the opinion of those best acquainted with the matter, ut-
terly impracticable. The high price of cotton in India had
caused great distress in many parts of that country, by
throwing the spinners and weavers out of employment.
Under those circumstances what would have been thought
by the natives if they had seen their Government imposing
taxes on them to increase the export of an article the

. .
dearth of which was causing so much suffering. yet

such was the course which had been recommended to the
Government. There would be no difficulty in obtaining
cotton in India if people would only:go there to purchase it,
That was the only stimulus which was needed. Direct
Government interference only did harm—the less they
meddled the better. (Hear, hear.) Under the incentive of
the increased demand cotton was coming forward from all
parts of India at a rate of increase that was very remark-
able, He believed that with the prices much lower than at
present they might reckon on an inceased production of 25
per cent. per annum, so that in about six years as much
will be obtained iron). India as was before obtained from
A merits. The people were fully alive to the advantages of
cotton cultivation, and would be further stimulated by the
exercise of every legitimate function of the Government.
Mr. R, W. CRAWFORD supported the views which
had just been expressed by the right hon. gentleman. Per-
sonal residence in India had convinced him that the ques-
tion of waste lands had very little to do with cotton culti-
vation in India. He did not think the Government or the
Secretary of State for India open to the charges which had
been made against them. They had done all they fairly
could to stimulate the growth of cotton in India. They had
opened up communication through the country generally,
they had withdrawn the export duties, and had listened to
every reasonable proposition which had been made to them
on the subject. He did not know what else they could have
done, and he should therefore continue his confidence in the
India administration of his right hon. friend (Sir C. Wood)
which he had always felt.
Mr. BRIGHT repeated his conviction that the whole
question lay in the tenure of land. Every witness examined
before the committee of 1848 gave the same testimony on the
point, and all agreed that unless the cultivator of the soil
had a tenure which would give him full security it was im-
possible to expect that rapid and continuous improvement
which under other circumstances might be countedupon. He
did not complain of the construction of railroads throughout
the country, but he did complain that the Secretary of State
seemed to think that they wore all that was necessary for
its improvement. What was wanted in India was a revo-
lution of ideas and practice in the Government, and he be-
lieved that that would bring with it a revolution in the life
of the people, and greater activity on their part. He knew
that that could not be done in a year, but he had pressed it
in vain on the attention of Government 15 years ago, and
now, when the crisis had come, every one sought to throw
the blame on other shoulders. He believed that instead of
one central Government at Calcutta it would be better if
each presidency were ruled by an independent executive,
and had attached to it a board of works to carry out public
undertakings on its account, or through the instrumentality
of Indian or English capitalists. The hon. gentleman then
alluded (in "mild terms," as he said, compared with the
language of the parties themselves) to the discourteous
treatment which the Lancashire merchants and millowners
had uniformly experienced when attending with deputations
at the India-office. It might be simply an unfortunate pe-
culiarity in the manner of the right hon. baronet, but it had
been felt so strongly by several large manufacturers and
spinners of his own acquaintance, that they had declared
nothing should again induce them again to wait upon the
Secretary for India.
Mr. T, G. BARING defended the right hon. baronet, and
said that in one case where there had been a report of some
supposed want of courtesy on the part of the Secretary for
India, he had taken the trouble to make inquiries, and found
the report totally without foundation. The scheme of rail.
ways carried out in India was that which was recommended
by a committee of that house in 1848, of which the hon.
member for Birmingham was chairman, and in accordance
with his draft report, and the administration of justice in
India had greatly improved of late years. The Council of
India had been most anxious to do everything in their
power consistent with their duty to encourage increased
exports of cotton, and he felt satisfied from the discussion
that had taken place that the house would approve of what
had been done by the Secretary of State for India.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said the returns given for five months
did not fairly represent the exports of cotton from India, as
the return for the year gave a different result. The hon.
member defended himself from the misrepresentation of Sir
C.Wood in his recent speech at Halifax, and said the ques-
tion of Indian cotton did not rest on price but quality. In-
dian cotton had always been inferior to American cotton.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR supported the motion, for he con-
sidered it most proper to inquire how far the Secretary of
State had thrown impediments in the way of the introduc-
tion of British capital and enterprise into India. If the
committee were appointed the result must be a complete
change in the policy of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. FERRAND adverted to the wonderful change which
had come upon the Manchester gentlemen, in urging the
Government to grow cotton by protection in India. He ad-
vised them to trust to supply and demand in future, and
not come down there whining for protection. (Hear, hear
Mr. CAIRD withdrew the motion.
THE CASE OF COLONEL CRAWLEY.

Mr. BUTT asked the Attorney-General or the Secretary
for War to state whether, on the return of Col. Crawley to
this country, it was intended to prefer the charges against
him before a court-martial, or before the Court of Queen's
Bench, or some other of the common law tribunals. The
hon. and learned member suggested that the charge against
him amounted to one of manslaughter, of which no court-
martial could take cognisance.
Col. DU NNE
appealed to the house if it were fair thus
to hunt a man to conviction before he had been put on his
trial? (Hear, hear.) Military men knew that Cul. Crawley
was not responsible for the confinement of Sergeat Lilley,
and it was most unjust to couple his name with the word
murder, (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said that the question
had been fully considered by the Horee Guards and the
War-office, and that, as it appeared to them that the
charge against Colonel Crawley was of a military nature,
the proper tribunal before which he should be tried was a
court-martial. (Hear.) As
.to the case of Capt. Smales,
the subject had been laid before the Judge Advocate-Ge-
neral, but as the communications which passed between
him and the 'War• office were of a private nature it was not
for the public interest that they should be produced.
Mr. CONINGIIAM denied that he had condemned Col.
Crawley, or made any charge against him. On the con-
trary, he was one of the first to protest against Col. Crawley
being made the scapegoat when others of high rank were
daeply compromised. The hon. gentleman was then pro-
ceeding to refer to the case of Capt. Smales, when
Mr. OSBORNE rose to order.
Mr. CONINGHAM advised the hon. member to keep to
the Irish Church, and to be more careful in his facts.
(Laughter.)
Mr. OSBORNE—Sir, I again rise to order. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) The hon. gentleman has no right to
mix up the Irish Church with Capt. Smales.
Mr. CONINGHAM—I do not know whether the hon,
gentleman is sober. (Laughter, cries of " Oh, oh," and
" Chair.")
Mr. OSBORNE—I do not know whether the hon. gen-
tleman is sane. (Loud cries of " Chair" and " Order.")
Mr. CONINGHAM wished to say nothing unparlia-
mentary, but the hon. member had no right to come down
to the house and interrupt independent members. He re-
membersd when the hon. gentleman (Mr. Osborne) was
silent enough when an humble occupant of the Treasury
bench—(laughter)—and he hoped the noble lord at the
head of the Government would take compassion on " your
petitioner"—(Order, order")--and gave him a place in
some outlying skirts of the Administration, where he would
be again reduced to silence. (" Oh, oh," loud cries of
" Chair," and laughter.)
Sir G. GREY here interposed, and hoped for the credit
of the house such observations would not be continued,
(Hear, hear.) He was sure the hon. gentleman would
regret having made use of such language, and it was not
to the credit of the house that it should have been indulged
in. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Major GA VIN, in defence of the
Indian army,
The subject was allowed to drop.
THE CASE OF MR. FRITH.

Mr. WHITE moved an address praying that the inquiry
into the claims of Mr. Warren Hastings Leslie Frith against
the late Governor of Oude take place in England instead
of in India, on the ground that all the evidence was in this
country.
Sr. M. FARQUHAR seconded the motion.
Mr. TOURENS supported the motion.
Mr. C. WOOD regretted that he could not accede to the
motion, because, as he believed, the really important evi-
dence was in India.
The motion was then negatived.
MILITIA BALLOTS SUSPENSION BILL,
This bill was read a third time.
THAMES EMBANKMENT (NORTH SIDE) BILL.
The Lords' amendment to this bill were agreed to.
LONDON COAL AND WINE DUTIES CONTINU•
ANCE BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this bill were agreed to.
The house having gone into committee on this bill,
Mr. CRUM-E WING immediately moved that the chair-
man report progress.
The committee divided—
Ayes
Noes ...............................
Majority —l3
The.house accordingly resumed.
The Prisons (Ireland) Bill passed through committee.
INDIA STOCK.
On the motion of Sir C, WOOD, leave was given to in-

troduce a bill giving further facilities to the holders of
India stock ; and the bill was subsequently read a first time.
The house adjourned at five-and .twenty minutes past
one.

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS,

TIMES.—Mr. W. S. Lindsay writes to us on the

misunderstanding between Mr. Roebuck and the
British Government respecting the communications
alleged to have been made to that gentleman by the
French Emperor. As we are not a party to this
dispute about facts, and know nothing of the case
but what has been stated publicly by Mr. Roebuck

on the one side and Mr, Eayard -on the othkr, we
need not enter into .my discu sion. Mr. Linciss%

declares that what Mr. Roebuck has staled " is true,
and shall be confirmed by me in Parliament, with
time, place, and circumstance, when the debate is
resumed." Very well; if this can be done, so much
the better for Mr. Roebuck's credit ; though it wilt
certainly be extraordinary that Lord Russell,
and Lord Cowley, and Baron Gros, and Lord Lyons
should all of them have lost their conscience or
their memory, not to mention that the Moniteur
should give an apparent contradiction to Mr. Roe-
buck by having published the despatch of M. Drouyn
de Lhuys before the British Government had even
answered it. We shall be interested in the expla.
nation which Mr. Lindsay will give of these things
when the debate is resumed, and should he vindi-
cate his friend and crush the Government we shall
be willing to apologize for having believed the con-
current and positive testimony of half-a-dozen offi-
cial persons rather than the reminiscences of Mr.
Roebuck. We must say, hossever, that in such a
case as this mere reassertion is not proof. If Mr.
Lindsay can do no more than rise in his place and
say, " What Mr. Roebuck told you is true, 'he will
not in any way justify the deliberate charges which
were brought against the Government on Tuesday
night. The most that such a course can effect is
to raise a suspicion in the minds of people that
the Emperor may have been guilty of indiscre-
tion as much as, or even more, than Mr. Roebuck;
that his Majesty had talked loosely, have forgotten
all the details of the transaction of last November,
and having wrongly fancied that he had com-
missioned Baron Gros to make some verbal com-
munication, of to hint something, or in some way
to sound the English Government on the subject of
the American war. But even under this unlikely
supposition the language of Mr. Roebuck would
not be justifiable, and merely to " confirm" the fact
that something had been told him by the Emperor
would in no way exonerate him from having pro-
pagated an erroneous report. When an accusation
of this kind is made with such ostentatious solem-
nity, the accuser is bound to have some proofs in
his possession, and not to rely on a mere conversa-
tion, in which either speaker or listener may have
been careless or inaccurate. Mr. Lindsay replies to
our remarks on the injudicious practice of approach-
ing foreign Sovereigns with the intention of gather-
ing their opinions and using them afterwards in
domestic discussions, by stating that when he had
his first interview with the French Emperor he was
accompanied by her Majesty's Ambassador at Paris.
Bat in the next sentence he destroys the force of
this announcement by saying that this interview
" was proposed on matters referring exclusively to
English and French maritime interests," and that
subsequent interviews took place on the same sub-
ject. The fact that a shipowner, who may be pre-
sumed to have a special knowledge of maritime
subjects, should be introduced by his Ambassador
to a Sovereign who was meditating great financial
changes is certainly nothing extraordinary, and
such interviews can in no way be classed with the
amateur diplomacy which we have blamed. But
Mr. Lindsay does not think fit to state what_con-
. .

flexion his 'interview of the 23d of June, 1863, for
the purpose of learning the Emperor's opinion on
the recognition of the Confederates, and using it in
the House of Commons, has with his interview of
January, 1861, on the shipping trade, to which he
was introduced by Lord Cowley. How the inno-
cence and usefulness of the one can be communi-
cated to the other it is difficult to see. In the first
he was merely communicating commercial or econo-
mical facts ; in the second he was strictly a " self-
constituted Ambassador," ready to take the conduct
of affairs out of official hands, and, as it now plainly
appears, eager to bring or " confirm" the gravest
charges against his own Government. Mr. Lindsay
says that this interview " was brought about by
circumstances which in due time shall be fully made
known to the country." Probably the disclosure
will be of little importance, but anything will be
to the credit of the two volunteer diplomatists which
tends to show that they did not force themselves
on a foreign Sovereign with the desire of repeating
hls chance expressions to the detriment of English
statesmen.