The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-13 00:00:00

filed was he wrong in saying that the system had altogether
? and that the Noble Lord, with all his
blandishments, during
een a the whole period of two years,
had not bble to induce more than six gentlemen to
nter
a ? lit might t!':tti say titr.t "-avy
this couotre—the Navy to which the geetry of England
naturally looked as a profession for some of their. children,
had bee.n absolutely for two years without any instrnction
--that he considered was a point of some considerable im-
portance to the country at large. He had never heard any
objection to the former plan, except that which would
aPPIy to any one. He had heard some of his brother offi-
cers say that they could not manage these youths—that
' !bey came on board full of mathematics, and were
(or no duty—that might very well be called stuff.
( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He never yet saw
a south that could not be inatieged by some means or
other. I.' the Government had taken care that the youths
had been obliged to keep up to the pitch of education at
had
they had arrived—for instance, if the Noble Lord
",ad appointed a Lieutenant to each ship to look after that
,cia" of youths, to make them work their observations, and
Windsto in ske all those calculations necessary in a ship—theof the youths would have been kept fresh, and their
ucation would net have been thrown away. Wherever
the former system of education had failed, he had no he-
sitation in saying that it was the fault of the officers.
The youths were neglected, and when they intended to
came up to pass as Lieutenants there a as a constant nieces-
_ltY for repriming aral reloading. He should be glad to
(keel- from the Noble Earl upon what grounds the esta-
blishment was abolished—lie was at a loss to discover, be-
cause the College cost nothing, which was the oechar
ge
taat the economists could have against it. While he was
'upon the subject, he would like to say a few words with
respect to the naval architects. He believed that it
was necessary to get rid of that establishment be-
cause they educated men so highly that unless they
found situations for them there was a danger of that
.ducatiou being transferred to a foreign power ; but
mire was ,
a stipulation between the Government and the
men who had entered apprentices to the system—
ey were told that they should
rise gradually from the situ-
ation of Foreman to Surveyor of the Navy—that situation
Was to be their goal. He was afraid that ever since that
eseminaryt,, hid been established very little had been done for
ase young men. He was informed that very lately ne
th
'Sse, than twelve vacancies had fallen in of situations which .
3oung men were capable of filling, and yet only ono
'lad been promoted. Ile ass anxious that the se vice
should have the advantage of the talents of those young
mould
and he was anxious that they should be re-
warded. Before the establishment of that seminary
naval architecture was entirely borrowed from foreigners ;
.11(1 he might safely say that before that period it was car-
rtied on very much by the Rule of Thumb--( A laugh)—but
till greatly improved since inducements were held out to
nrit,l; they were to be eligible to certain offices, but many
`tuein had been abolished. The offices of master of the
h'llPwrights aed inspector of naval works, with many others,
litany ad been abolished, which used to be considered as so
wriincentives to good conduct on the part of the ship-
ghts. Who'was First Surveyor of the Navy now ?—one
Zbiho never had been a shipwright. Thus and thus the boon
beh had beea held out to that class of naval workmen
ba been taken away. Ought not the House to do Mlle-
s ,log for so useful a set of men, who had been educated,
112' who had agreed to be treated, upon a certain footing?
sal?f them were now in the various dock 3 ards—one was the
anoe's assistant ; one was in the East India Service ;
Co, One was gone to America as a Professor in one of the
He in that country, carrying all his science with him.
hc (the Earl of Hurdwicke) hoped the Noble Lord at the
etd of the Admiralty would remember this highly edu-
t.aed and highly-gifted class of men, and in any altera-
'ens which he might make in the naval service, be kind
enough to adhere, as nearly as he could, to the intentions
tv
begged
had been entertained towards them ; and he now
to ask the Noble Lord what system of education he
meant to adopt in the naval service ?
tl The Earl of "INTO said if he had the least idea that
4!0 Noble Earl, when he gave notice of a question to the
diniraitY, meant to go at such length into the subject of
naval education and naval architecture, he would ve
Hme down prepared to enter fully into those subjects.
iLe (the Earl of Minto) must express some little surprise
hat So long after the abolition of the Naval College the
subject should now for the first time be made the subject
of discussion in that House.
aaThe Earl of H ARD WICK E, interrupting—Begged to
of
plain that he brought the subject forward in consequence
Nivel the many complaints he had heard upon the question of
education.
The Earl of IVIINTO said, allowing that explanation to
be satisfactory, he would first proceed to state on what
floolulends he
had felt it right to adhere to the intention of a
teener Admiralty Board as to the abolition of that Naval
College, and although he might relieve himself of all re-
teonsibility by referring to the decision of that former
uoard, he would take no such ground, and would fairly
looking
that if upon coming into that department, and upon
"king into the state of the Naval College, he had been
tiabled to satisfy himself of the utility and wisdom of the
institution, he would not have been a party to such a
sulippression. But all the information he had received
Was directly to the contrary effect. He was assured by the
roost experienced officers, and those who had paid most
regard to the education of the College, that it had failed
in producing those highly instructed officers which it was
anticipated would have been the result of its establishment.
college,on
ething be was convinced of,•that the education at the
excellent as it might be in its way, began at the
bwirong end; for the boys were learnt to work their pro
- with great correctness, without knowing for what
itti`it,ncl then, after having lost two years of the most valu-
sezl`e,'"ecanse the most practical part of seamanship they were
1,,,, to sea to forget what they had been taught at College.
fromPrecve how little benefit any class of officers derived
lest- Le College instruction, he :night state that, on the
171 exaraiaation of which a return was made, there were
ad 3 Y°llng gentlemen who had been at the College, of
r,,0 11 el 14 were turned back, and 122 who had not been
at
`
there
eges of whom 42 were turned back. Now, certainly
kho Was a disproportion between the number of those
havingth been at College, had been turned back, and
back who not having been at College had been turned
greater
hut he wondered that the disproportion had not been
tt?e4teri for those who had not been at the College, had no
,eawns of carrying on their studies. He was convinced
th t the state of educatiou in the Navy was too low, and
paaat tile College had been a total failure. As to the ex-
], Pea eh=
was a trifling point—but he believed the Col -
leege cost about 2,0001. a year, however, if it were 5,000/.
iTishould have considered himself bound to support it, had
,:rDeer, successful.
he
Earl of HARDWICKE said, that on the Mis-
ici-el_lafteous
Estimates, it appeared that in 1832, (we be-
-417.) the College cost 5001., with a note, that next year
the as expected that the whole expenses would be paid by
„Zoceipts from the parents of the boys.
ee4 Earl of MINTO said the College had become
e'i_Popular in the service, and it was difficult to get young
lenri4 to go into it, except as it happened to be the only
that rite
into the service. At the same time, he must say
!'e instruction was most excellent.—( Hear, hear.)
lion lee a
aerea!eu to him to be more desirable that educe-
Pert sielculd be given on board ship, where the practical
it I,l' Beatnanship might also be learnt. He had heard
that they not only failed to send out good sailors, but
a zaZwas a rare thing indeed to find a College man to be
te-t-C shininan. He believed the most serious objection
of ite institution of the College by those who complained
eve, Was that it was an exclusive establishment; that
stewSiving it all due credit for the education it be-
tielc, it bestowed it on but a very small por-
ing and left the mass uneducated. His own feel-
of ajw:s a feeling of dissatisfaction at the result
estabisiai_inquiries upon this subject. His object was to
Say, as u 4 much higher education, and he was happy to
was a far as it had gone it had been successful, There
the a,tt excellent school of education established on board
heones:oe;icieellgeent, from which a number of well educated Per-
th° e.wcre sent; all the most useful instruction obtainable at
was obtainable here. Besides that, it had
hielir's endeavour to place in the sea-going ships gentle-
seh 0' 4 very superior class as compared with the old
nlnolrnasters. The Noble Earl opposite was mistaken in
,14' there was no alteration in the schoolmasters' salary ?
h had before from 70/. to 80/. a year, and that
41
really found to be sufficient to induce
$:
th !,eurneeenn of their acquirements to enter into the service,
,men
condition otherwise admitted of it. But a number
se ert,ii!use gentlemen who were desirous of remaining in the
to tare, complained of their want of position in reference
a o of officers, and, above all, of their want of
LuY hold on the Government if they left the service. He
"ci..atin felt the propriety of those complaints, and had en-
',mired to remedy the cause of them. He also "thought
that be was entitled to seek for gentlemen possessed of a
c')t;P:lewhat higher degree of education than had been re
t',:r°(l before. The salary therefore of the naval instruc-
a-I:,bad been raised ; he meswd with the officers; he had
pr "°lll allotted to him, and a small retiring allowance
sealQvAidefd ; it being so far intended to put them on the
tile; I°°tieg as that of chaplain. With this view
be were were now about fifteen or sixteen young
ford almost all of whom bad taken degrees either at Ox-
degrac'v earnbridge, most of them having taken wrangler's
Poso`ec:, and actually serving on board the fleet for the pur-
for the getting that practical education which they required,
ter„; e Purpose of filling the improved office of schoo.mas-
aecesvcrY far short yet he was ready to admit, of what was
the
oisr y, and what was desirable. But in the meantime,.
woeie schoolmasters remained, and though every ship
Yiet e allot be furnished with one of those naval instructo. s,
hve-nrY ship had the schoolmaster, be he the chaplain or
enabielarnan of such qualifications only as would retnqeufitea
• araiinul to pass his examination for the situai
eatieo
natruetor. Such then ,was the present state of edu-
n board the ships—greatly better than what it was
treebi Y, short of what he desired to see it. He would
Mereiyettue House no further respecting the College, than
elan; a) saY that it really was not suppressed on account
whether pence that might have been incurred by it, but
Itot c,, that expense was ill applied or not, because it wes
Ts
selculated for the purposes for which it was intended.
eloti ehool of naval architecture did not answer the ex-
rottiuteaationa of its founders. From that school came well-
Mee less men, but they were not midshipmen. They were
tdhitiro,ll,,fesafitlteendg for the service than those who had_ gone
apprenticeship in the dockyard. much
havLo t seem to have been the case that a certain number
Le islu_F. been allowed to retire from the service altogether,
one eyed there was not one, or at any rate not more than
beiitiuter them who had followed out the profession of ti.e
• But , expeata.. with regard to those gentlemen it was true
deemedbe tons had been held out to them that they should
sa%e eligible to situations of advancement at the sl/40
i —0 ee could not see that any one could have been
Tr:
_lnrProzident in founding that school as to have said that
t4erunfit they should be preferred to all others. But he
st°od a prospect had been held out to them that at
others;rate, ecteris paribus, they should have a fair chance with
tleann and what had happened, why every one of those gen-
Lout without exception had received advancement. He le.
higvbcod;, of course, they' had not been advanced to the
(P;nOr perhaps even to the higher ranks of the De-
e' rtruente
'nee Why ? Because there were many old officers
greatlY superior claims, both from standing, intelli
, experience and merit, who had not been passed
lliet: in order to provide for those young men. But still,
eves'y instance they had been advanced, and he was