The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, ilLiscm 14.
The Lotto CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Wool
sack at five minutes before Five o'Clock.
CORN-LAWS.
A NOBLE LORD presented a petition against any al-
teration in the Corn-laws.
Lord II ATHERTON presented a petition from
Newcastle-Under-Lyne, in favour of an alteration in the
Corn-laws,

Lord FOLEY presented potitions from Worcester
an,l another place, against an alteration in the Corn-
laws.

Earl SHA FTESBURY presented petitions from
places in Yorkshire, against an alteration in the Corn-
laws. On the motion of the Noble Earl the Transfer
in Aids Bill, and a Private Bill were read a third time,
and passed.

Lord ROSEBERRY presented petitions from Stir-
ling, Pot tobello, and other places, praying for a repeal
of, or alteration in, the Corn-laws. The Noble
Lord took this opportunity of stating that in his
opinion experience proved the present Corn-laws had
not acted favourably, and that they were susceptible of
alteration, which might be made without injury to
the agriculturist, or any body else, and with great
benefit to all.---(Hear, hear, hear.) The present mo-
ment when the warehouses were empty, presented
a most favourable moment for an alteration of those
laws. But to a total repeal, or any immediate alters•
tion of them, such as the petitioners asked for, he was
directly opposed. Such a proceeding would lead to
distress, the extent of which no person could calculate
or avert, and produce a greater pressure on the con-
sumer than he was likely at present to sustain.
Lord WILLOUGHBY D ERESBY presented 97
petitions from the county of Lincoln in favour of an
alteration in the Corn-laws.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented petitions from
several places against an alteration in the Corn•laws.

Lord TEYNIIAM pre.sented a petition from the
Barony of Kilmoine, in the county of Mayo, for a
total- abolition of tithes. His Lordship observed, that
as Noble Lords on the other side of the House had

given' notice of a discussion upon the grievanCes of Ire-
land for next week, he would only then say he trusted
they would succ<•ed in th&r voyage of discovery, and
find out that tithes were a great injury to the Catholic
population of that part of her Majesty's dominions, and
cordially join in their abolition.
Lord STRADBROKE presented petitions against
a repeal.

The Duke of: BUCKINGHAM presented 272
petitions, signed by upwards of 30,000 persons, against
any alteratien in the 'Corn-laws.

Earl rtrz WILLIAM presented petitions from
Stroud, Huddersfield, Wigan, Dcvonport, Kirkcaldy,
Halifax, Melton, Longwood, Roden, Hole►forth,
Preston, Norwich, Poplar, Beverley, Marylebone,
Newry, Scarborough, Carnarvon, Morley, Mor-
field, Ecclesfivld, Ayr, Wallacetown, Dartmouth,
and a variety of other places, signed by up-
wards of 78,000 persons in favour of an alteration in
thi Corn-laws.

Lord RAYLEIGH presented several petitions in
Favour of the Corn-laws.

The Duke of RUTLAND present several petitions
to the same effect, and remarked as to one
of them, that he had asked some agricul-
tural labourers who had signed it, why they . had
done so, and they replied that their object was to pre-
vent revolution. He (the Duke of Rutland) concurred
in the soundness of this reason as much as in the prayer
of the petition.
The. Earl of RADNOR—Did the Noble Duke ask
the labourers, why they supposed the repeal of the
Corn-laws would cause revolution ?

The Duke of RUTLAND said he had not asked
that question.—(" Hear, hear," from the Earl of Rad-
nor.) But he had asked them at what price they
considered wheat could be profitably grown in this
country—and they answered, 31. per quarter.
The Earl of RADNOR-4 should like to know
whether those labourers were aware that the present
Corn-law has never secured that price.
Lord BROUGHAM thought the Noble Duke had
done quite right to ask the opinion of these agricultural
labourers, deeply interested as they were in the question.
But he also thought that, the manufacturing la-
bourers ought to be consulted, and not only
upon the subject of the Corn-laws, but upon
other questions, on which they had a very strong
opinion—Reform of Parliament for instance, of which
they knew, at least as much as about the Corn:laws.
and he should shortly have to present petitions from that
class, praying for a further extension of Parliamentary
representation, and he hoped their opinions would at
least be as much attended to as those of the agricultu-
ral labourers.
The Duke of RUTLAND said he quite concurred in
the propriety of consultipethe-,itianafacturinglabourers,
and hie begged to,Present a " pdtiiion trop,tho town of
14eiceiter,io favour of .the.Cora,laws,,signe4-bY 1,100
miknufacturinglabc!urcrs,-and 1,600-tradesinen•and shop-,

keepers, and by other persons, altogether to the number
of 3,ooo—(Hear, hear)—and the petitioners stated one
very important fact, that of the manufacture in which
they were occupied—that of woollen stockings—the
greater part. was required for home consumption.—

(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke then presented various
other petitions to the same effect:.

A Nopt.E Pimit in presenting various petitions to the
same effect said, that a petition having come to him by
post, charged, it had been returned—as it was stated
that it ought to be directed to their Lordships' House,
but it bad not yet reached him.
The Duke of RICHMOND, said, although he was
not at the Post Office, nor intended, hyGod's, help, ever
to be there again-",(A laugh)—he might state that
the Postmaster was obliged-to charge all petition§ above
six ounces, but the universal practice was, upon the
cover being sent back with " Petition" written upon it,
the charge was taken off. ckitainly the-.petition ought
to have reached their Lordships' House-by this time.
Lord MELBOURNE said be would inquire into
the subjeet •
Petitions were presented against the repeal of the
Corn-laws, by the Earl of Aberdeen, from Roxburgh ;
by the Earl of Warwick, from different pnrts of War-
wickshire_;- by the Earl of Redesdale, from Monmouth,
the Isle of Wight, and the eastern division of the
county of Gloucester ; and by the Duke of Richmond,
from Aberdeen, Sussex, Banff, and Elgin..
DUTIES ON FOREIGN. FRUIT. •
'The Duke of RICHMOND, in presenting a peti-
tion from the owners and iiecupkrs of lands and gar.
deni iri the-c6Uuty or Sussex,. prayitig- for an alteration
in the- Bill passed last SesSi,on, reguiao4; theduties on
foreign fruit,, begged to state. that at. the time that Bill
passed. the Noble Lord at the head of her
Majesty's Government had promised, if it was
allowed to pass without opposition, that should any of
its,provisioas be found to be detrimental to the interests
of.the fruit growers in this country the objectionable
clauses should be removed by a Bill to be introduced in
the present Seision. He tt;'erefore wished to know from
the NOble Viscount whetherit waibiS intention, in con-
-sequence of the dissatisfaction that been caused by
that measure or that of his colleagues, to bring in any

Bill upon. the suNect.
Viscount MELI3OURNE did not recollect having
pledged himself to reconsider the measure alluded to by
the Noble Duke ;- certainly several DeputationS had
waited,mpon his. Right Hon. Friend, the-President of
the Board of Trade, and if it was found'that the state-
ments of the fruit growerS were correct, some alteration
‘VOulil certainly,* Made in the Bill.
rne Duke of WELLINGTON trusted that the
Noble Viscount would give his attention to the subject
at an early period of the present Session.
Altar a few observation's from the Earl of RADNOR
and tilts Duke of RICHMOND, the subject dropped.
'The Earl 'of HARDWICKE, presented a petition
from the • county of Cambridge, against any alteration
in the Cern.laws.
The Ea:l of FITZWILLIAM thought it was
rathera singular petition—it purported to come from
the county of Cambridge, and yet the.mecting had'been
held at Ely, which was nothing more than a great agri-
culttirtil
The Ead of HARDIVICKE was Lorry to hear the
Noble Earl call the Cathedral town of Ely a village.
It, had a,very magnificent church. •
• Edrl. fITYiNVIL LI A M-;-So it bas.—(Laughter.)
The-Earl of HARDWICKE said it could not be
&Irk:4.a hole•and-COrner meeting,_ becatisc was regu=
larly convened by ,the Sheriff, and, he would. add, that
all-the democratic party lived in the Isle of Ely.
Lord StANIIOPE presented petitions against the
repeal of the Corn7laWs.from four places in Northarep-
toushire,and a parish in Kent.
liord .REDESDALE presented a petition • front
Northampton to the same effect.
• The Marquis of WESTMEATH presented 'it peti-
tion'froin the ("hand ;fury of Westmcath, to the same
effect. .The petition stated that there were four nill-
lions cmi,lovcd in agriculture in Ireland, and he hoped
the Noble had would state in the course of his address
what Would becorne of that agricultural population.
The Fhirl of Dull:it:01. presented petitions from
Gateshead, Leicester, Bererley,•St. Andrews (Corn.
wab), Berwick-on-Tiveed, Rochdale,' and several other
places, for the repeal of the Corn•laws.
The•MarqUis of NORM AN BY laid_ upon the table
• papers' by,,commaid of her Majesty,
Lord DUNGANNON laid: upon the table the Re-
port of the TitheConimi!. oncrs-of Enelandand Walev;
11'6'theSeventeenth Pcrort of the "Inspectors of Pri
5,011 s; a'returnTrom the Um-ks of the Crown and
•

Earl FITZWILLIAINI then rose—He would he
extremely happy to answer the question of the
Noble Marquis opposite as well as lie could,
and perhaps he could not better preface what he had.
to say on the subject than to express a doubt as to
whether the Noble Marquis had taken a very accurate
view of the effect which an alteration of the. Corn-laws
would hare upon property in Ireland. Their Lordships
would see that there was a very important preliminary
consideration, and that was to define distiactly what
their Lordships, and the Noble Marquis, meatt by the
term Ireland. If the Noble Marquis meant by that
term the 6,000 or 7,000 persons who owned the soil of
that country—if he meant the somewhat larger, but
still not very numerous, class who were seized of the
owners' fee, it was very possible that the Noble Mar-
quis might take an accurate view of the effect
of the Corn-laws. Possibly, although be did
not admit the position, or that it would con-
tinue for any long period ortirne, it was just pos-
sible that the effect of the alteration might be to reduce
the rents of the landowners of Ireland. But that it

. ,_ ...
would have any bad effect on the condition of the
people of Ireland, was a point upon which he enter-
tained an opinion diametrically opposed to that of the
Noble Marquis, and all those who said that Ireland
was interested against the motion he was about to make ;
because if there was any part of the community, any
class, or any condition of society in that country in-
terested in having the means of good, and Wholesome,
and useful means of subsistence placed within their
reach, and not as they at present were, without those
means, it was the great mass of the pbpulation
of lreland..—.(Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis
said that there were five millions. of persons
employed in agriculture in Ireland. He wished that
there was anything like that number engaged in agri-
culture. There might be five millions or more who
lived upon the land, and who paid all the surplus that
remained after supporting a wretched existence in the
shape of rent ; but to say that five millions Were en-
gaged in any thing that could be dignified with the
name of agriculture in that country was one of the
greatest mistakes ; and if their Lordships, who were
unacquainted with the sehject, would run away with
(
that idea and sustained by that feeling, would, think it
their duty to resist the motion with which he would have
the honour of concluding, he could only say that their
Lordships had taken a most mistaken view of that law.
So much for the Noble Marquis's question ; and Who had
had .a choice, that was not the point upon which he would
have first commenced addressing them. The great variety
of petitions which had been presented to their Lord-
ships that day, and the great contradiction of opinions
expressed in them, showed that no doubt a great variety
of opinion was
_entertained upon that great and import-
ant question. It was natural that these diffetenet s
should exist. All of them he was afraid ivem but too
apt to form their opinions according to their
wishes and to form their wishes according to
their interests ; therefore it was, considering there
was a great variety of fancied and supposed in.
terests upon the question (although he believed there
was only one real and solid interest), that great, variety
of fancied interests formed the ground of the•various
petitions presented to their Lordships' House. The
duty which it appeared to him their Lordships had to
perform on the present occasion was to discuss these pe-
titions—to examine those which were based on solid
grounds—and to adopt them as the ground
of their own opinions, and to discard those which were
founded on erroneous convictions. With respect to the:.
different classes of those petitioners as they were
divided with regard to rank and station, he (Earl
Fitzwilliam) certainly was not one of those who regarded
their importance in proportion to the rank of the _par-
ties from whom they emanated. On the contrary, he
agreed with the Noble Duke (Buckingham), and was
not one of those who was disposed to disregard the
petitions of the labouring classes. Many among them
were competent to form a correct opinion. At the

same time it could not be denied that in proportion
as education was more or less extended among any class,
so was the greater or less value of their petitions ;
and if . so, he was afraid the agricultural
labouring population, as being one of those classes in
which education was less advanced—which had the few-

est opportunities of observation and of arris ing at sound
opinions, which men could not arrive at unless they had
an opportunity of comparing their own preconceived no-
tions with the opinions of others. If again that portion
of labouring classes who were engaged in agriculture
were more likely to act according to the suggestions of
their employers than any other class of operator* then
undoubtedly it might so happen that the opinions
of those labouring classes might not be these
most entitled to their consideration or attention.
His attention had been a good deal attracted to the con-
ditions of the islands in the South Seas. By one of
those marvellous dispensations of Providence which was
sometimes witnessed, Christianity seemed to have made
a great stride in these countries, and placed itself on a
foundation which he trusted would never be tbrown,down.
If, when generations had passed by, any of the inhabi-
tants of this country were to be reading the history of
.one of these islands, and that they prohibited the im
portation'lof yarns,and plantains, and bread-fruit, from
one island to •another, and would not admit them
unless they had arrived at an extraordinary high
priee=he helieved it would be said their conduct was
most extraordinary.- If one of these islands experienced
famine, it would be owing to false legislation. Now he
was afraid that this country did in 1815 act pretty
much in the same manner, when we prohibited the im-
portation of corn Unless it arrived at 80s. a quarter.
But the extraordinary part of the story was, that the
persons -in whose favour it was stated that law passed
were not content with that law. From 181'
down to 1828, when that law was practicaPjy
in operation we were actually living under
a
'law which prohibited the importation of foreign corn up
to 80s. What was the consequence of that law to the
agricultural interest of this country ? Was there a
period in , history to he found, during which louder
and better founded complaints of distress were ut-
tered, than during that period ? It was obvioui then
than that law could not stand—that law was abrogated
and the wisdom of 1827 and 1828, devised the law un-
der which we now live He thought the new law was
a great improvement to the old; he thought th&t ti
modified prohibition under which we were now
liVing was an improvement on absolute prohibition ; but

. _
even this new law appeared to him to have too much of
a prohibitory character. But had agriculture been en-
tirely flourishing even under the new law ? Had there

articelatrillYatlytihtiel 11
been no agricultural petitions—had there been no cons- 1
plaints of distress—were there no agricultural Co 111 '
tees ? His Noble Friend opposite called thisA pntolt-t;
'prohibitory law, but a regulatory law. regu-
latory law ought to have the effect of 1
prices when they had a tendency to
toris°o7.clir2ll
'raising prices when they had a t
afal?l
oh
ca.
rNe
do.
tWi
I,a thet tli e
rlaw w
was
hadsu some
uo
elements such e Erie::
the late
:illictai,istre,s. ac:ltf,:si ill
atlnted:dp
with a direct contrary tendenclyn,
regard to the ascending scale.
at 645-, the duty increased Is. for every
average price diminished. So with the shillinga
iuntdettelteldiy atiridicvneldmatit aa
point shilling
a fo:rieleitellwhOl ascending
t!ltleittn3e,
tshtaegdeant;y i)
diminished `,:ls. fin' every increase of ls in the averae—
then at the point—then at the next point n-tforthe increase
of. Is. there was a diminution in the du
last there was a diminution of 4s. dut• forof 3
theincreases"andat
of
Is, in price. . Lt.t their Lordships imaginei. a corilAetor
with a large quantity of corn--what would he do
under those circumstances? There was no doubt
that -every corn-factor would conspire to raise the
price in order to diminish ;the duty, and that was the
Of that portion of the Corn-I.lws. The effect was
riot to regulate prices by lowering them, but to give a
temptation to speculators. He could not conceive any-
thing more 'vicious than this in the operation of any law
that human ingenuity could devise. Now what was
the result of all this ? Had the agricultural claSses I
been prosperous? Had this law operated as a regula-
tion of prices? There was a Committee of the house
of Commons, at the head of which was a very able and
distinguished member of that Committee, at the con-
chision of their report proclaimed to the country; that
under the Act of 18'28 the fluctuations had beeln ex-
ceedingly small, -This was a most happy Committee-_a
most fortunate Committee, which sat in 1833, but the
cflyu catdui,e.,t it tri i n
Committee of 1836 adopted the extraordinary ; pro.
lay.
no opinion at all, but simply;
icin)gedainmgansfseoNfPcrevskslienngee before the House of 'Co-n*ons.
in stating there had been no fluttoa.
limieohntsli
--,,,,n as
tTiointtoC,:igninT6i rt,teree'ferreti to the enormous
HOuse
Tanneinciletlo'cf peyrecsleesnt7frigfit'nie3i.rears, calculation to the ,
and they said that in one of those cycles thero,vks a'
fluctuation orS per cent. ,No doubt it was mischiei:ous
to the grow er and the consumer. Now what had 1'....,erl
the fluctuation since ? If they had to report no;,v-inst-endcf
repoiting only a fluctuation of 5 per cent., they would have
to report a fluctuation of 1819 and 1820, so that this dill
efnaLiro)re,i,. Sstatlinolioc:.qietu. )
had faded in tcg;:lati.ig the price of corn, but it had i not
failed in raising..the price of corn. Did any man belie, 6 It-
11":gearu.n,dhecrart,i: frgo:n'Y'Lk) ;oldr d
we had the good fortune to be
free. trade in corn?—(h"call_eabr:itbteliarec
Charles 11.
system—a(n;.other system?.
The Noble Lord laughed—but
mencement ossf,ht,e4,iiswasYs
Stantope)— ;
NV IL LIA AI —No •suelt thing—there v.,
ae1:11 o'l:ir' :ei
lioarttll STAN I 1(? I'F, said in tae reign of
and the lo
no doubt, Corn-lanls; but the objeetLoorfd
silt:
to give a bounty on the ,export of cern, and he 1.. was
there lien laws passed which imposed duties on '1;i1:
4:Tort ef core.—(llear, hew,: from
The Noble Earl really did not think Cott, the (Lind
thcre ivas the high thity,,the moderate duty,
( A hug'''. )
(it'u.tio.Tl. n81'1ATliOall:11;4:11-t slid nio4tu'a"ll-pl-ir '
EarI.I4.IT7.IVILLIANI--.Did the Ne;sh; F`r.l zi1...,.! irto
his consi4r4ipn, that from the prices a that thee. tbps,
law:, were never in nay practical operation. The laws' of