The Sun.
London, England, 1801-04-02 00:00:00

ilia. a ~.v~••

• '.."•.F.1".",

.... ..ir..~ ..v " bO

pardon for troubling the Committee so long ;and
cpnctuded with moving his Resolutioas respeaing
the- Taxes.
.. . . . .
Sir 30fIN PA. RNELL made sofne general 0b...
sexvations on that part of,the Right Hot), Gentle-
man's_ staternent.which respeaed the separate Charges
c of Ireland. He wished to know whether the Hon.
, Gentleman wished to avail himself of the balances of
" - list-:Oat,` whatever"` tieara* Ihillirilien Be' aUe r
t Kr, CORRY, across
_the Table, replied in the af_
:.. fitmative, with respell to the balances as they al)._
peitied on the 4st of January last.l Sir Jottri then
objected to the mode of statement, as tending to
mislead* , The balance in the Treasury, on the Ist
0f January, was stated as exceeding one million ;
bat,: at the same time, the. arrears. amounted ,to
ihoye.46oo,ooot. so that there appeared a defici-
encrof boo,oool. to make. good the difference be-
tween the balance and the arrears ; the Public,
therefore, so far from having •an advantage from
the balance, ought 'to be stated as proportionally
losers to the above amount. Viewing
.the subjea
in this light, he begged to know of the Right Hon.
Gentleman how all the balance could now be brought
into credit, and made to operate in favour of
the Ways and Means ? The arrears, whether
amounting to nearly the same sum, or whatever the
' amount might be, ought, in. his mind, to be de-
duited froth the general account. With regard to
the Loan and the Taxes proposed, if together, they
but little exceeded five millions, they would make
but an insufficient provision for the expences of the
yells; -What lie 'looked to the circumstances of Ire-
. land, and the balance of trade which was so much
against her, he must consider the system- of fresh
Loans as destruetive to that. Country. By paying
OfF the interest of the former debt by a new Loan,
was the first step leading io a National Bankruptcy,
There had been a Law passed in the last Parliament
of Ireland, enabling the Public to borrow 1,4.00,0001.
in addition to the usual Supplies of the yea:. Why
then was 600,0001. now to be brought forward as a
charge, if the means of providing for this sum was
made the last year ? ,With respea to the expenses
of Ireland conheaed with this Country, the whole
of which were incurred in Ireland, although not to
be-'paid there, Sir Jo it st said, he could not see how
these eipences could be brought so low as 4,60ch0001.
The expences of Ireland last year had amounted to
seven millions, besides an additional sum accruing
of 700,0001. there was the interest of the debt phy.
'Ole by Ireland of 1,6°0,0001. amounting in all to
the sum of 9,300,0001. so that after deducing that
part of the debt chargeable on Ireland, there would
still remain the sant. of 2,300,0001. to be placed to
the account of Great Britain. But Nvhera the Right
Hon. Gentleman talked of the advantage: to Ireland
from part of the expence falling upOo Great Britain,
be must remind him,of the -sformer.sitnation Of lie.
land, and of the additional expence of her separate
charge in consequence of., the Union. Her whole
• expense in the year of' the Rebellion was 3,F00,0001.
atld row she paid at the rate of
.seven, n. tillions.... Sir
to tbeMilitaryr
PIM said, that u ith Jespea.
4stablishment, the. argument ,of the Right Hon.
Cpeogeman appeared to him more specious than so.
lid : that' paid nothing additional, from
England
the whole Army's being liable to serve. in this
'!,-,,. ,' :ciiantry if circuaotances So required ; for it ought
-!. tnbc:CoMictered that England paid that at present,.
MI*NCH' she would not have been liable to according
H -in Ihe former bargain with Ireland. If British
~ Troops formerly served in Ireland, Ireland was
bound to pay them ; but if these Troops served iii
. ~ Ireland now, and England was bound to pay them,
. ;he thus incurred an additional charge to which she
ii,_.' would not have been liable formerly. With regard
' -,ft to the expences of Ireland, be was sorry to remark,
that they were every car increasing, :nor did he
•
see any prosper-of their diminishing, for articles of
texpense were almost daily brought forward, .altho'
it might have been expetteci• from the Union, that
• - as-the array of a distin& Government, Offices
became unnecessary, that a considerable reduc.
L Lion of ' expellee might have: been effetaed. A
"lumber of articles of expellee, although trivial
In themselves;'had been incurred, and he thought
it was the ditty- of the Imperial Parliament to look
into them; for, though small In themselves, they
considerably increased the aggregate amount, and
ira there was thdvantage from Great Britain having
joined in .the esApences of Ireland, that it became
her interest toome.that there was no unnecessary cx.
penditure. He trusted, therefore, that the atten.
lion of the House would be particularly direCled to
the affairs of Ireland. With respeCt to the 'faxes,
Ireland paid its proportion to the whole 'faxes of
,the Empire, besides which,: there were several
' which operated as local Taxes. This remark ap.
.plied'to Gentlemen from Ireland, Members of Par.
lianient, ' and others corning to reside in this Coun.
;, try, who, in several respeas, might
.be said to be
d9obly taxed. After briefly noticing the proposi-
tion of transferring the Coal Duty from England to
Ireland, the increased Post-Office Duty, &c. Sir
Jo/4N_ said, he should defer till another opportunity
his remarks in detail upon these objets of taxation.
With regard to the Window Light Duty, he would
just state, as a peculiar hardship, that in irciand
this Duty was'continued to the end of the year, al-
though the Occupiers of houses did not continue'tlit
same number of windows ~ this he considered as
contrary to the principle of the. Union, which was,
that there should be no severer mode of taxation in
Ireland than in England. Sir, jouu said, that it
had not been stated from what provision the super-
bundance of expense falling upon England was to
'be paid, although he supposed it was to be out of the
&Lacquer:. He was convinced that the expences of
Irelandrhad:risen in such a rapid proportion, , eve-
' cially within the last two years, that by an
.accu-
., ululation of debt, the ruin of that Country would
be • accelerated. lie could not avoid 'remarking
that grants of money had been made of late with an
unusual profusion. "He could not help looking to
that Article .of Union, that whenever the debt of
Ireland arose to the proportion of two 17 the of the
P. debt of Great Britain, that then the system of taxa-
. lion-should be equalized in both Countries ;. but if
this shouldever be the case, it would ruin the Coun-
try of Ireland. He wished that whatever the ex_
pences of Ireland were, that they might be provided
for as far as possible wit,hin. the len, for. otherwise,
system of increasing Loans, would
to promote a
(' , • prove ruinous to both Countries.

called for a. diminution df the expenses df Ireland,
but he must know that this could not be effetled
till the present state of that Country was changed ;
but whenever that should happen, he might be as-
Snred there would be a reduaion of expences. The
state of its Military Establishment, during several
successive years, had been the principal cause of the
additional expense; together with the increasing
interest of the Debt. But several articles, under

the head of. -Compensations, Navigation, &c.
amounting to a considerable sum, would
,gradually
cease, and cause a proportionable decre'ak of the
National Expenditure. What the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had stated, that if the Taxes were insuffici-
ent to cover the Loan, the Country was going to
ruin, was true, as a proposition- abstractedly cop-
sidered, but what he had had the honour of bringing
forward more than covered the Expenditure. With
respeft to the balances, the Honourable Gentleman
had stated their amount three quarters of a year
back, whereas he had stated their amount on the
Ist of Jan. t Sot, the day when the Union between

the two Countries was to take effea, and which
balances amounted on that day to the sum of
1,697,0001.

Sir 101 IN PARNELL said it seemed to him
extraordinary whence this balance was to arise, as
the aetual expences of the former year were stated as
only sufficient for the purposes of it. Ey. the au-
thority of Parliament, the whole of the money voted
vas appropriated, and therefore he siispeaed that
&itch balances would not arise, as well as that the
proposed Taxes would not cover the deficiency.—
Nor was the Right Hon. Gentleman, in his opi-
nion, authorised to take the balance in the Trea-
sury on the tst of Jan. as applicable to the service
of the current yeii, inasmuch as there were debts
to an equal, if not a greater amount, then due.
Mr. CORRY assured the Right Hon. Baronet,
that every possible attention had been paid by she
proper Officers to bring forward every Account ;
for this purpose they had laboured indefatigably,
during the usual time of recess at the Christmas Ho-
lidays, and that every Account possible might be
paid off. The Treasury had been shut from the
zsth of December to the sth of January ; the sum
due from the zsth Of December :to the tst of Ja.
nuary (the day when the Union took effea) was
necessarily brought to the account of the present
year. The Hon. Baronet kneW' that there were
certain items of the Civil .List always rieceSiarily in
arrear, and from which small sums alight unavoid-
ably remain due ; but there were none which would
not in due course be altogether liquidated. The
most extraordinary exertions had been made to dis-
charge every thing that could be discharged ; and
nothing was left of so important a nature as to war-
rant the Charge that the arrears were not provided
for.

Sir 70. !IN PARNELL said, he knew that there
must unavoidably be considerable arrears, and tivt
as they were incapable of being paid off, so like-
wise there must be balances left afloat, but as credit
ought not to be given for the arrears, neither ought
credit to be taken for the balances. Re still doubted
whether the balances at the Ist of Jan. could be
made applicable to the expences of the current year,
and for the remainder of the Loan to be brought
forward.

The Question was then put upon the Resolutions,
when, the House being resumed, the Report was
ordered to,be received to.morrow.

LOTTERY,

Mr. ADDIAVGTON said, it fell to his lot to
propose the assistance of a Lottery, in aid Of the
Ways and Means for raising the Supplies fin' the
year ; the profit of which to the Public would
amount to 201,2501. He said it was impossible to
expert so large a profit to the Public as had been ob.
tamed the last year, when, in consequence of the
bargain which was then made, considerable loss
had fallen upon the Holders of Tickets, as not more
than 34,000 Tickets had been sold at the commence-
ment of the Lottery. There were various circum-
stances which might have occasioned this falling off
present high price of Provi.
in the sale, such_as the
sions, Poor Rates, and articles of taxation, which
obliged many persons to retrench in their articles of
expenditure. On all these accouOts_ he had been
given to understand, that in consequence of the
loss which had been sustained, the last year, he must
expet very different proposals now. He then men.
tioned, that it had been usual with the CHANCEL-
Lott of the EXCHEQUER to state upon paper what
was the lowest profit which he would accept, and to
leave that Paper sealed up with the Governor and
Deputy Governor of the Bank. Three Patties had
offered terms, but none of them coming up to what he
had proposed to accept, he had desired them to re-con-
sider their proposals; the Bidders accordingly retired
with them, and upon their return, the highest bid-
ding was accepted. He had been desirous to ascer-
tain what had heed the amount of the profit to the
Public during the last ten or' twelve years 'of the
Lottery.—ln 1793 it had amounted to 175,0001. k
in 1797 to 146,2531. ; in 1798 to 167,9161. and
in 1799 to 203,54.11. ; from whence it would ap.
pear that the profits in several of these years were
lower than the amount of the Bargain which he had
made yesterday. He had had the satisfaaion of
learning from Gentlemen experienced in this busi.
ness from the Governor of the Bank and others,
that the Bargain entered upon was one which ought
not to be rejeded.
Mr. ADD lataTow then moved, that towards
raising the Supply to be granted to His MAJESTY,
the's= of 201,2501. be raised by way of Lottery,
consisting of 50,000 Tickets at the rate of 141. os.
6d. a Ticket, and that the ContraEtors make a depo-
sit of 11. os. 6d. in respell; of the money to be paid
by them as a security for the..p:iytnent of the re-
mainder.
The Resolution being agreed to, the Report was
ordered to be received to.morrow, and on Monday
set-Might the House to resolve itself into a Com-
mittee on said Report.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ap-
peared at the Bar, and being called from the Chair,
said—if I am commanded by His MAJESTY to
lay before this House, Copies and Extrads of Pa-
pers containing Secret Information received by His
Ntajesty's.Government relative to the State afire_
land, and Proceedings of certain DisaffeCted Persons
in both parts of the United Kingdom.",

_
above, being read;
The CliitilC.ELLdit, of, the Exeiiiii2Ooii slid;
" The Title of the Papers which I have this day
presented io the Houses describe the objeft to
which the Papers refer, and, chat to which it is my
duty very shortly' to call the attention of the
House. Sir, it has been in the recollection oe the
House, that on a Motion made for leave to bring
in a Bill for the more effe&ual Suppression of Re-
bellion in Ireland, and for affording more complete
protettion to the persons and property Of His. Ma-
jesty's Loyal., Subjects in .that part of the United
Kingdom, an expettation was expressed by some,
and a wish expressed • by many Members, that
some information shouldhave been laidbcforo them,
before their acquiescence. Was to be had to that
measure. Sir, that expeaation was undoubtedly
parliamentary, and I believe, although I was nor
then a Member of this House, it appeared that it
was only in consequence of the peculiar circumstan-
ces of that time, and the situation of Ireland, that
this House was induced to suffer that Bill to pro-
ceed without that preliminary Inquiry. It must,
therefore, be satisfactory to the House at this time,
that before any proposition is made for the altera-
tion of that Bill, or the extension of it, Hts MA-

7r-e•• yr ••• t../ %lb La go Uri
11111 SU MC 1.11114 aIS

Ern, is advised to lay before this House Papers
relative to Ireland. Sir, I heartily wish I could
stop here ; but a subjea which has already attraa-
ed the attention of this House, demands notice—l"
mean that System which is conneaed with the ef-
forts of the Internal' and Foreign Eurmies of this
Country, to subvert our glorious Constitution. I
did hope it would not have been necessary, as far as
Great Britain is concerned, to call the attention of
the House to this subjea ; bta unfortunately the
malignant spirit which is in perpetual alliance with
disaster and internal difficulty, has not been able to
resist the temptation afforded to it by the distress
occasioned by the high price of the articles of life,
of making that public distress, or rather, I would
say,, of endeavouting to make the public distress,
although fruitlessly, 1 hope, the instrument of pub-
lic perversion. Sir, it is not for me now to expa-
tiate, it is not my intention to go minutely into the
discussion of that subjea..;: it will be best disclosed,
or rather, it will be best investigated, from the Papers
now before you. . It is enough for me at present to
say; His Majesty's Ministers were possessed of in-
formation which they conceive to be their duty to
lay before Parliament, . and that these Papers should
be put into a proper mode for investigation, which is
that of referring them to a Committee. I will not
anticipate the measure, which it may be the duty
of the House to take after the Report is made ;. that
Avill be for the House to consider after they shall be
in possession of that Report—Whether any, and
what measure should be adopted, I shall not •now
presume to say—l shall therefore move, Sir, " That
',the Papers presented this day to the House by His
MA JESTY'S Command, be referred to a Commit-

Mr. T/ERNEl'said,-he should certainly not op..
pose the Motion for referring these Papers to a
Committee ; that he 'thought only a matter per-
fe6ily regular; and indeed of course ; but he could
not help expressing his surprize arid concern at what
he had heard. He did expea that a measure to an_
nom. die Pc.pto oC oglanA iii

any respea, 'whatever might be thought of any
other of his Subjefts, should have made the slubjed
of a separate and distinet Message from His MA-
JESTY ' • that, he was, confident, would be grateful
to the feelings of that House. He thought that
this slight allusion was not all the House had a right
to expeft from His Majesty's Ministers upon 'so
very important a subjed as this. He said this the
more firmly, in consequence of recolleaing the
Speech of the late CHANC ELLOR of the EXCH E.
QU ER upon a late Debate, in which that Right
Hon. Gentleman had, in the most handsome terms,
expressed his gratitude to the People or England for
their patience under their sufferings. It was sur-
prizing, that so soon after such a' testimony in he-
half of their virtue, such a communication should
follow, and which might lead to some measure that
would deeply affeft the charafter of that House.—
He meant to go no further into that matter at pre-
sent ; but with 'regard to Ireland, he thought the
communications perfeftly right : An Inquiry should
be gone into upon that head, because so very rigor-
ous a measure as that of adopting Martial Law
over any class of our Fellow-subjeds, should not
take place on the assertion of any Gentlemen, who,
however respeftable, and although they spoke .what
they believed to be truth, could not speak other-
wise than under the impression of very strong pre.
judice. He would add, however, one word more
on the other matters : it was to express \a hope,
that the Committee to whom the subjca was to be
referred, should be composed of men from all parts
of •the House, without any referenCe to Party, so
that the thing should be conduaed with all the
purity which might be expeaed to attend the
investigation of an abstraft,question. In a word,
that the Committee should consist of such men as
that their Report should give to the Public perfed
satisfation.' He abstained from saying one word
more, except that of repeating, that he was a good
deal surprized at the subject of this Communication
by His Majesty's Command. He hoped, however,
the result would be, that the new Ministers would
appear to have taken up an unjust and unfounded
alarm, on the disposition of any part of His Ma.
jesty's British Subjefts, and that the mistake must
be set down to their eagerness to perform their
duty.

Lord HAWKESBURY said, he had but very
few words to utter upon the subjeft. There ap.
peared to be no difference of Opinion on the Motion
now before the 1-lousc',.;viliich was that of referring
the Communication 'triad6'bY Command, to a Com-
mittee. With -respea to the state of Ireland, un-
doubtedly when the Bill fir Martial Law Iva:,
brought in, His Malesty's Ministers thought that
an Inquiry would have been a very proper measure
to have preceded that Bill, and the only reason for
passing the-Bill without it was, that in a few days
that measure, so essential to the safety of Ireland,
would have expired,'. so that there was not time for
making that Inquiry.; but the present Parlia-
ment had a great deal of recommendation to
that Bill, and very respedable evidence of
its neces;ity ; they bad the authority of the late

rarlianietit of
ifehiridi dr i 1 .the
the GentiY, And bestiilortfied pettont of that :Pa*
of His Majesty's d.olninibils in tai,titif of theßill;
that, upon.the, ethergency Of ijte thing, was sufficient
.for passing the Bill for' the Short period of three
menthsvprid in the mean time Parliament Would
hare sufficient opportunity of investigating the
matter; and coming to-a determination' whether it
should be continued or not. Now with 'regard to
the state of this' Country ; he could have wished;
as he once .hoped; as much as any man; and In_ that
he felt a sentiment which was common to the Men:_
hers of that House; and to the intelligent and virtuous
part of this Country, that no rause existed for any
Inquiry of this kind, He felt what the Hon. Gets..
tleman who spoke last had alluded to; very foci..
bly ; it was great satisfaftibn -to him, that amidst
an tinpatalieleci distress; arising from the high price
of provisions) there certainly never was a time when
the Loyalty of the People of England Was mire
conspicuous than during the last twelire months
but unfortunately, in the course of the:last few
weeks, persons who are always disposed to takd
vantage of any -calamity, from whatever ear se it..
may arise, to infeCt the minds of the People; and for
an °Ned of which such persons never lose sight
the destration of the British Constitution-persons
who had so often endeavoured to put their principles
in praffice, and on whose condud the Parliament
hid felt so just an alarm, .and provided such pro:.
per remedy ; those persons had been of late
busy ; for the truth of which, without going
into particulars at this moment,. he. appealed to
those .dithers of the -• tiouse :who came from

the most populous and manUfaauring Districts
of this Country, and asked them whether they did
not know; as a tai, that such pratlices as were

alluded to in the Communication, did not exist.—
Under these circumstances Hts MAJISTY had or-

Tiered to be made a Communication; now, undoubt.

edly, the House could do no otherwise, regularly,
than adopt the Motion of his Rt. Hon, Friend, be.
cause its former praaice had been uniformly such as
that Motio-n proposed ; it was to refer the subject.
matter of the Communication to a Committee.—

When the Committee made its Report, the douse
would decide whether any other and what measure
should follow, upon which he would say nothing,
because this was not the season for saying any
thing, except that he should rejoice if the re.
stilt should be, that either the evil apprehend-
ed and hinted at, did not exist ; or that if
it did exist, it was only to a degree so trifl-
ing, as not to require, any causionary measures
on the part of the Legislature, so that nothing
should be done to fetter or restrain any part of that -
which in ordinary times properly made part of Pub-
lie Freedom. But if, on the contrary, it should ap.
pear that a case was made out, shewing that the
tranquillity of the Country was seriously threaten,
ed, then the House would be called on in the dis.
charge of its duty, to take such measures.as:might
be necessary to avert the danger. Whether aey
such danger did or did not exist, could appear only
by Inquiry ; and the Motion for refuting these
Panes to a Committee was the only way to obtain
that information.

Mr. PITT.—" As far as I can observe, there
exists at present in this House no difference of
opi-
nion uii thc. Motion which is now before us—ln.
deed, upon the Motion itself, it is hardly possible•
there should be any difference of opinion. A Com.
municatiton by order-from the Throne, on a subjeQ
involving the security of the Country, will not be
fieglqied by this House ; and I apprehend the
HOuse will adopt the course it has formerly adopted,
on a similar occasion. I should not have said a
word on the present occasion, had not the Hon:Gen.
tlernan on the other side of the' House alluded to

mei and to what I said on a forther Debate, stating
partially the truth, but by suppressing some of it,
as usual on'theseckeasicins, in cited completely mis.
representing my sentiments. The Hon. Gentleman
expresses great surprize that any statement should
now be made of any disaffeled persons being aftive
in this Country, because I, on a former occasion,
expressed an affectionate-gratitude towards the bulk
of the People of England, not only for their Con-
spicuoas Loyalty, but also their, unexampled pa.
tience under unexampled distress, arising from. the
season. Now, Sir, this is neither .more nor
less than''a. pursoit of that coune in Which Par.
liament have 44 to guard against the 'Operate
machinations of Treasonable Correspondents, who
have, frcini time to time, been more or less naive
occasion seemed to them to suit or be favOur_
able to. their purposes, and to thwart 'whose wishes;
'and to frustrate whose designs; h:is been no incon.:
siderable Ran' of the labour of Parliametv, nor has
it been uninteresting to the People of England.—
Sir, I contend, that the mass of the People of-Eng-
land have. the same feeling dull we have ourselves,,
and that they have the same Value for the Consti-
tutiOn under which we have the happiness to live.
We can only take our share in 'preserving that Con-
stitution ; nor can we feel more than is 'felt in eom.-.,
mon by them, an interest for its safety, and an ab.
horrence of those artifices, which have so frequently
been made use of with intention to destroy it.—
I should; think.it an odd instance of loyalty or at-
tachment 03 the'Soyereign we serve, and a very in-
different or defeetive proof of the common prudence
which belongs to every.enlightened Member ofCivil
Society ; still more extraordinary, a proof of grati.
tude to that mass of the Peciple of England for their
'unexampled merit at this Most trying occasions if I
were to endeavour to shew that gratitude, by hand-
ing them over, disarmed, to -a•comparatively small,
indeed, but certainly desperate, set of persons, seek.
ing their ruin upon every occasion that occurs to
them, whenever they have hope of aid either with-
in or without this House. I say, therefore, that
instead of ingratitude to the tnas of the People or.
Englan~.i, Tarn discharginii a duty owe to justice,
to the Interests of my Country, and pursuing a
course whicYt is" marked out by common Prudence,
and sheaving a grateful sense of the admirable virtue
of the mass of the People, every moment I ertdea...
your to 'rescue them from the contagion, or other
misatievous eifed, of principles , which cannot be
successful for a month, without producing those hoe.
rocs which have been, in this Country, hitherto fami.
liar only in narration .; others. hideo?aly in practice,
which have covered Ireland with blood, and a large
part of Eurdpe with dtstruttion. Now, Sir, as to