The Sun.
London, England, 1808-06-23 00:00:00

BANK OF IRELAND.

The'Order of the Day.was then moved for the
House to resolve ii,selt into a Committee on the Bill
for renewing the Charter of the Bank of Ireland,
and Lord .Grenville, who was to have made a-
tion on the subject, not being present, a conversation
ensued between the Lord Chancellor, Lords Hot-
lam: and Stitahope, itspetting the propriety of dis-
charging or pasting over the Order. of the Day,
when

Lord GRENVILLB entered the House, and soon
after rose to make his motion ; but first presented a
Petition from the Catholic Merchanti and Bankers
of the City of Dublin, praying that they might not
be excluded troll) acting as Directors and Governors
of the Irish Bank; which Petition wps ordered to
he on the table. The Noble Lord then begae by
apologising for the delay which he had, unwillingly
been the cause ot, and then proceeded to open the
Proposition which he should have the. honour -of
submitting to their Lordships. He begged leave in
the first place, to observe, that the House was
going' to Legislate on matter respecting which
they were wholly in_ the dark, the charier which
they were going to renew, not so much as being
before-them, nor even , the terms upon- which. G-
overnment were prepared.to grant the favour of that
renewal. The charter was to be renewed for above
twenty rears, and what was the return to be made
to Government far the concession ? The Bank of
Ireland was to lend one million and a half to Govern-
„ment, at a higher interest than Government borrow-
ed money at in this Country ; and the • Bank was
moveover to manage the public debt of Ireland.
.Now, what was the expence of managing that debt.?
It appeared from official dotuments, that it did 'not,
amount to 80001. per annum, so that for the sum of
80001. Government granted that to the Bank, which
lie was confident that many private individuals
would advance ten times the sum for. The bargain,
therethre, was in the first place, most improvident.
fur the Country. Now he should proceed to consider
more immediately the question to which he was
anxious to call the attention of their `Lordships. It
was a question by no Means oft he magnitude of the
great question of the Catholic Claims, nor was it in
his mind at all connected with- the grounds and rea-
sons upon which that great question was professed
to be opposed. On a re-consideration of these
grounds, he might for a moment bring himself to
say, that they Were just, liberal, and politic, when
compared with ihe-reasons for which the claim he
was now goiug to make iu the name of the Catholics,
wds to be resided. On the general question it was
said, that by granting the higher claims of the Ca-
tholics, you would cohter upon them a degree of fro--
litical power, which might be incompatiSle with the
security of the Constitution in Church and State.
But by allowing them to eel as Directors of the
Bank, you gale them no uegree of political power ;
fur it was not with the Bank of Ireland' as with. hat
of England ; the Batik of Ireland had no connection
with Government as the Bank of England had. Be-
sides, not only, different sects, but men of different
religions were admitted.as Direetors of the Bank . of
England. In Ireland, however, you would exclude
those from that distinction, who formed the larger
'portion of the monied interest of behind, and who
possessed the greatest share of the commercial capi-
tal of Ireland. You thus deprived them of the means
of managing their' own property, that; which no-•
thing could he more unreasonable ; you so far dis-
couraged them from inttusting their property to the
Irish funds, than which nothing could be more un-
wise and impolitic. There was no point of view
under which it was possible to consider such an ex-
elusion, in -which it must not appear to every unpre-
judiced ruing illiberal, unjust, negrateiul, and im-
politic. These he trusted WQUId • be sufirciently

the
Lord FlAwxastetty.Oppoied h Motion on the
grounds he had already so Often insisted upon.' It
had already abundantly,appeared to be the sense of
Government, and of Parliameot, to make nu turther
concessions to tie Catholics of Ireland at the present
moment. Indeed he would go sO. fat, as again to
repeat; that he should make.biis stand on the law as
it stood at the Union. What had 'been conceded
up to that period he was ready. to abide by ;
thing furthtr he would Oppose'. No tiiat3
deny that iidafissiOn to the offices of Bank Dime-
tors must confer influence, Which thiemv vYould
generate: political power. If, therefore; Parliam'ent
was wise in opposing claims Of higher and more
extended power, they would ad with equal Wis-
dam in opposing the present claims Which, it gr r-
ed, must have the tendency it was the dare and de•
termination of Parliament to counteract; for thel,e
reasons he must oppose the motion.
Lord EiiiKINR thought that Parliartaeht would
involve themselves in a dilemma if they accededlo
the Fesent motion, for by yklding to it they i»ielit
appear to break faith -with the Protestants to whom
they granted the charter; while by opposing it they
would ad unjustly tmkards the Catholics; to .whom
.they denied the fair right of ioterfei nig -in the ma-
nagement of his own property,

Lord Eli RRow..aywas wilting to grant every con-
cession to the Catholics which could. he safeiy grutu,
ed ; but he thotight this as unfavourable a moiiiet►t
for the present claim as for the largei• claim, which
Parliament had alteady rejected.
Lard LAUDERDALE warmly supported the motion
on the same grounds with Lorel Grenville.

I,9rd STAN-11014 urged nearly the saint) reasons in
favour of it. . .

Loud WeSTMORLAND rejected
,the motion on the
general grounds that no further conceSsions what.
ever should, under the prevent eiretunitanees, be
granted tea the Catholics ; and he was surpriSed to
see such motions so often brought forwarit by those
who, when they were thernselies in power, em-
ployed every exertion to deprecate.and prevent such
discussions. They were the real authors of any ill
consequences which might arise from a refusal to are.
cede to such 'claims. •

Lord ItermsDALß,could not but repeat his former
objections to such claims. The more you were
ready to grant them, the more power and pretension
you gave to Catholics to come forward with fresh
claims, and perhaps to insist upon them. The writers
among the Catholics of Ireland gave Lepeated probth
of what were their real- intentions. n a book-pith-
fished by one of them, Mr. M4Kenna, •it was pro-
posed that provision should be made for the Catholic
Cl:rgy out of the property of the established
Church -was there then "no danger to be feared for
our establishments

The Marquis of BucKINGIIAM imagined the Noble
Lord, who, spoke last,. had addressed much of his
speech to 4tim, and he therefore would not remain
silent. , With regard to the insinuation thrown out
by that Learned Lord, he could assure the House
that there was not the smallest iiiondation for it. He
had lived long in 'lreland, and , was 'lntimately ac-
quainted with a great nurriber'of Catholics, and he
%could safely say upon his honour, he had never heard
such a sentiment drop from the lips of any one of
them, nor ever bad he heard from any Protestant
in Ireland that such an Opinion was entertained by
the Catholic Clergy of that. Cotintry,. and that if such
an opinion had 'prevailed among them, it was most
probable he should have been -acquainted with it.
As to the question belitre the House, he was sur-
prised to hear so much reasoning advanced, which
applied to the general question of what was called
eathelic Emancipation, but which did not at all touch
On the point under discussion. It was rather strange
that the dangers and apprehensions which were SO
much dwelt upon now, seemed by no means to hare
entered the minds of the Protestants of Ireland
when the institution of the.fiank of that Country
Was first established in 178 C.. So far indeed to tau
contrary, that at a Meeting of the Subscribers, who
then proposed to purchase the Charter (rein (govern-
ment, the exclusion of the Catholics was carried
only by a siegle dissentient voice. Let their Lord-
ships now recollect that in !psi:, thetliills had not
"yet passed which have since granted so many con-
cessions teethe Catholics. Let them recollect that at
that period not the tear, butt the actual danger of
immediate invasion hung upon the coast of Ireland.
That the Army of Ireland was then without pay;
the Navy that was to protect it without provisions;
acid that the Treasury of Ire:and was without money
to answer either object. Above all, let then) recot-
leat, that, under these exigent circumstances, it was
an Irish Catholic (Mr. Gold, of Cork) who cheer-
fully stood forward and ad%;anced.the money to vic-
tual the Fleet and pay the Army. though the Ge-
verntnent of Ireland were bankrupt at the moment.,
He could adduce a hundred more instances, were it
necessary,, of a similar disposition to aid ,Govern-
went in every •way on the part of those towards
whom we were now disposed to ad with spelt' in-
justice and ingratitude. Even then, when it was
proposed to introduce the Clause to exclude the Ca-
t holics, it was, done with reluctance by the then
Chancellor and the Chief Justice of the Conpnee
Pleas in Ireland; but assented to by no one with so
much pain and reluctance as by himself. He knew
the loyalty and patriotism of the Catholics. He
knew their allegiance was unshakeable under Oeery
sort of deprivation and oppression. He also knew
their 'physical strength, acrd cot mercial Opulence.
Every one knew that they composed it) a great ni
a.
stir,' the Army and Navy of the Empire, and that

:hey also contributed largely to its financial resources.

Yei, with the conscio7asness of all these means;
their conduct was, highly exemplary as loyal and
submissive subjects; and sure he was they never
- would evince any other sentiment. Under such
impressions he should act unjustly if he did
not give his most cordial support to the present
411 LA ion.
Lord BUDES6ALE shortly explained.
Lord G 41iNVILLE then replied at some length to
the clitierent objections urged against his motion;
alter which the House divided on it,
Contents - . 63
Nan. Contents • tat
Adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

WEDNESDAY, JUNK 22.

The Southern Whale Fishery Bill, and the Silk
Duty Bill were read a third • time and passed ; as
were also the Exchequer .Bills Bill, the Tower Ham-
lets Bill, M‘Doi.vall's Estate Bill, and;the Irish Jail
Bill. •
The Reprisal Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed to-morrow.
The Madeira and Brazil Postage Bill was reported,
and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow; as
were ako the Coffee Customs Bill, the Coffee Ex-
cise Bill, and the Scotch Judicature Bill, which lat-
ter was ordered to be 'read a third time ori Friday. •
The Woollen Penalty Suspension Bill passed
through a Committee, and was Ordeyed to be re-
ported to-morrow.

COPY lIIG FIT.

Tvlr.-Vieeteas moved the Order of the Day for a
Committee on the Copy Right Bill.
On the question that the SPEAKER do leave the
Chair,
Mr. W. WvietsE should not object to the motion,
if the Bill were to .go into a COMmittee on at un-
derstanding that it v.as merely •for tilling up • the
blanks, in order to afford time to the public and the
parties concerned to judge how far it might be de-
sirable. kr their interest that the 11 should pass.
He thought that the time ought to. be extended
within which the Copy-right should be preseried to
the author. This time, lie was of opinion, ought to
be twenty-eight years, as also' that no author should
be allowed to dispose of his Copy-right for more
than fourteen years. As to the other part of the.
Bill, requiring that a copy of each work to be pub-
lished should.be sent to public libraries, the booksel-
lers, who were the largest 'publishers, felt it would be
so injurious to their interests, that they had'prepared
a Petition against that part of it, which he. expeCted
would be ready to present in the course of the-
evening. He put it therefore to the Right Honour-
, able Gentleman, whether it would not. be more de-
" sirable to let the Bill lie `Over till next Session, in
order that all parties may have time to consider of
its provisions. • ' •
.Mr. I/it:Liens replied, that the principle of the
Bill was not new, as the Universities were already
entitled to copies of all works that should be publish-
ed, and it could not be denied.that this circunistance
was favourable to learning, as thereby students in
the Universities were. enabled to consult books
which otherwise they would be unable to purchase.
Copy-Rights were at present proteaed to the extent
of twenty-eight years in two different periods. But
the consequence was, that in the works requiring
.time to mature them, the author could not derive
,frout them One halt' of the adVatitages that were en-
- joyed by authors of the lightest productions. • The
objet of this Bill was to remedy this evil.
Mr. •Abseenomete concurred with his Hon. and
Learned Friend, in requesting the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman not to press the Bill at this late period of
the Session, because many of the Booksellers of
Scotland, and someof those of Ireland, whose in-
terests would. be materially affeeted by .the Bill, had
hot"any knowledge of its provisions,
The House then resolved into the Committee, Mr.
NVliattou in the Chair. The btanks were tilled up,
and a clause introduced for extend;ng the proVisiOns
of the bill to Oriental work., atter which the House
resumed, and the Report was immediately received,
: •
' xvben

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL proposed that the Bill
be re-con-iniiited, and ae.instri,i6tion . be given to the
Committee to divide the Bi order that the part
whick provides tor the protection of the authors
might be passed now, and the ether might lit: over
for consideration, though he did not think there was
Inuch weight in. the objections made •to that part
which required that d copy of every new publication
should be supplied to all libraries open to the public.
This would not be a hardship to authors, I.-cause'
this was what •was requiled of them by the.dth of
Anne, in return tot the advalltlge they derived from
the Copy itight secured to them by that Ad.
On the q,uesnon that the Bill be re-comtnitted,
Mr. W. WvNna,atter stating his. several objec•
tio.o to the Bill, moved that the further consider-
ation of the iteport be put off to this clay three
months.
Lord HPNRY PETTY agreed in the proposition of
the Attorney General. lie thought that the pre..
sent criterion of the duration of an Author's Copy-
right was a very fallacious one:, namely the life of
the Author, and required much consideration. But
as to the other part of the Bill, which' required the
delivery of a copy of each work to be published, to
every library open to the public, it was only to
carry lute effect the spirit of the Mt of the Rib of
~tonne.. Fie therefore thought that the Bill ought to
be separated, in order that this latter part should be,
passed, whilst the more delicate and difficult part,
should be untiered to lie over till the next Session.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY contended that the part
proposed by the Noble Lord to'be passed this Ses-
sion was ,the most exceptionable part of the Bill. •
Fur his part, he did not -Think that there could be
,any objection to pass that part which •was to secure
the-Copy Right to 'Authors for. e 8 years. But that
prevision which required the delivery of copies of
new works to public libraries would have the effed
of levying a lax upon particular individuals, which
ought to be defrayed by the public, In many cases
of extensive works the publishers' were indifferent
about Copy iii l,t, and if the 13111 were to proceed,
he was or opinion that an option should beNiven to
such persons to clairriMr suctfCopy Right`,'
and, io the latter case, to. be exonerated 'trom the
necessity of delivering a Opy of their
,works to puli-
lie libraries, .

---ibe,A,I7OnNEY-GEtittAt concurred in the jug.
lice of the observatinits of his 4un. and Learcred

Friend, and•&etared Ills intention to move a clinse
to that etTe& in tire Committee. on the Bill.

The SOLICITOA-GEN sitA.i. argued at some length,
and with much force, in fatrour of passing both
parts of the Bill, even at this late' period of the.,
Seision. , I

Mr. STEPHEN observed, that the Bill its it at first
stood, embracing both objeas, was unobjeaiona-
ble. But he contended that, if it were to be divided,
it would be obieaionable in point of prececieut,.be-i
cause it. would separate the provision for.the author
and for the Universities, which had been jointly se-
'cured in former Aas. He was of opinion, however,
that the author had, at common las.v,•-an. unlimited
Copy Right, which was restrained by the .13th of
Anne. But it appeared to him that the notoriety
which would arise to.works from copies being given
to the learned Universities, would be an equivalent
to the author for the copies he should deliver to such
institutions. -

V;LGIERS stated, that it was certainly with
extreme relutiance.be consented•to the separation of
the Bill ; but as he could not put his opinion in op-
position to the authority upon: which that proposi—
tion was made, he felt inclined' to accede to it ; at
the same time he gave notice, that at an early period
next Session he should move for leave to bring in a
Bill similar to that.which was now to be divided.

The Bill was then ordered to berecommitted ; and.
an instru&ion haying been voted •to the Committee
for dividing the Bill, the House resolved into the
Committee, Mr. Wharton in the Chair.

. _
Mr. SMITH stated his obje6tions to the fur—
ther progreass of this Bill at this late period of the
Session, and therefore moved that the Chairman do
now leave the Chair.

A short discussion then took place*, in,which Mr.
Leicester, Doaor Lawrence, the Attorney-General,
Mr. W. Smith, and Mr. W. Wynne, participated;
after which the Attorney-General declared, that
Upon consideration he was inclined. to think it would
be- better to proceed with tl.e whole of the Bib
without any division, becauQe it would certainly
,be•
desirable that the burthem should be imposed ,by the
same measure that-wss to confer the benefit. He
hoped therefore that the Amendment suggested by
his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir Sainuel.Romilly)
would obviate the principal objeaions to the Bill.
Mr. W. WYNNE and Mr. W. &SITU repeated
their objedions to the proceeding ftirther with the
Bill at this late period of the SeSsion, contending
that it would not be decent to pass such a measure
without affording an ;Tportunity to the..l3poksellers,.
particularly in Irelanu, to be heard on the subjea.
Mr. MORRIS contended, that the measure- would
not at all -affea the Booksellers or Publishers, be-
cause it was to apply only to future publications,
and those persons would in their bargains with the
Authors indemnify themselves for
.any'number of
copies which they might be required, undeithis Ai t,
to deliver into the Universities and other' Public In-
stitutions'.

At this period the SPEAKER informed the Com-
mittee that a message from the Lords was 'waiting,
and intimated that it might be for the convenience
of the Hou.e, that the Committee should adjourn fbr
a short time, in order that the House niav reaume tii
receive the Message, adding, that the :Comunittv,.
might afterw4di proceed with the Bill,. and•ttrit
this course was consonant to the pradtice of
House.

The' House then resumed, 0/ben a Message from
the Lords intermed the House, that:their I.,(;rds hips
had agreed to the Irish Malt Duty Bill, Irish
Drawback Bill, the It kit Spirits Bill, the'lost
Duty Farming Bill, the Prize Goods Bill, the Prit2
Bill, the Inland Promissory Note Bill, •and. the
Chatham- Lines Bill, without any Amendments, and
totthe English Local Militia Bill with several Amend-
ments, in which they desired die concurrence of the
Hpuse.

Lord PALMERSTON presented the fourth Report
of the .Sugar Distillation Cotntnittee.—Ordered to
lie on the table, and with the Appendix to be
printed.

Mr. WiIARTON brought up the Report of the As-
sessed 'Laces Bill. After the several Amendments
were gone through,
Mr. HusitissoN brought up a Clause to remove all
doubt relative to a subject mentioned by an Hon.
Member (Mr. AVAaost.i.) last night; providing that
no person shall be liable to surcharge upon returns
antecedently made, and that the surcharge shall apply
to such articles only as shall be contained in such re-
turns. This clause was'agreed to, as was also a clause,.
providing that the Bill should not extend to Scot-
land.

4 Member, whose name. we could not learn, pro-,
posed a. clause, providing that when 4hetutpig-
Wooers of any Districk shall have assignetl the day
for hearing appeals against surcharges, and di.e
ticeshall be given to the parties, and the. Surveyor.
and Assessors, and the Surveyors and Assesscirs shall
neglect„ to attend. it shall be lawful lig the Commis-
sioners to allow compensation to the parties for their
time in attending. The clause was agreed to, when
the House went into-a Committee on these clauses.
After which the House resumed, and the Report
having been received, the Bill was ordered to he•
engrossed, and read a third time to7murrow.
'rite Citique-Ports Salvage Bill went :through•.a
Colutuit tee ; time Report was received, and the Bill.
ordered to be read a third time, on Vriday.
()tithe Report of the.Life.Annuhy Bill, Mr.VAN-
SITTART proposed a clause to prevent' the accumu-
lation of Annuities on the same lite.
The CHANCELLOR of the Excnuattes allowed die
clause to pass for the present; reserving the right of
altering or rescinding it,. it it should not, be subse-
quently found to he attended with the advantages
now expeoled. ,
On the motion of Mr. HUglitS3ON, the• House
went into. a'Connuittee on the Sugar Distillery Bill,
.The Report to be received tb-morrow.
The Spirit. Duty Regulation Bill was read a third
time and passed ; also the Irish Treasury. Bills Bill,
and the Welch Coals. Bill. •

The Irish Spirit Duty JIM went through a,Com-
mittee,..the Report to be rec‘tived
Sir SANIVI3. lic)aitt.t..x, on the- sndt,-r tor the se-
,reading pt. the Activatted ?CriioLl4,Compensa-
tiOn 13th, deehired his intention not to prbceed fur-
ther with the. Bill it) this Session, bat gave nctice
that he would bring forward the subject .again early.
in the next Session.

On the Motion of Sri VIOMIY CINDS, the House
went again into 41 Cornanttee on the Copy-right
Lill. • • • -

On the Mi.tion of the ATTORNR -GCNCItAti, it was
egieed that those who wished tO"‘vaive their Copy-
rig it, should not be obliged to give the copies !of.
publication required by the Bill'; and it was alt.() pro-
vided that tilose who did not give the copies requir-
ed should
.have no copy-right. . . - -
Mr. Ah2IICHOMIIIE contended, that the public
interest would be better served. by abridgingt the,
period of Copy-right ; he proposed to limit it to 20
years, instead of 28.
Mr. Moaats insisted,*that the term -of-twenty-
eight years was not too mitch for a just COpy4ight.
He cited the cases of Dr. Adam SMith's Work, and
Dr. Johnson's Dictionary, to- prove that most va-
luable works were not properly estimated till they
had gone through many editions and had been long
before the public. He therefore thought that an
extended term of Copy-right was desirable,
Sir ARTHUR PIGOTT thought the present period of
the Session ton late for. the agftation of this subjeCt.•
He thought eleven copies too many to require, and
that when no complaint was made on the part of
. authors, of booksellers, or the public, it wa3 unne-
cessary to alter the law as it stood.
Mr. Lavensratt defended the _proposition of the
Attorney-General; which was greed to, after some
observations in exception by Mr. Smith (of-Nor-
,
wich).
_ _

Mr. W. WtrlNg proposed to render the supply
of copies to the Universities obligatory only whet)
called tor. On explanation this dilliculty was re-
moved.

Some further conversation took place on the pro-
vision to 'secure the best impressions of every work
to the public librariei. It was agreed that the copies
so given should' be on the best paper on which the
work should be printed for the general purposes of
sale. The House having resumed, the Report was
received, and ordered to be taken into further consi-
deration on Friday._
a. a
_ _

On the Motion of Sir S. now LLY, the
.House took
into further consideration the Report of the Com-
mittee on the. Privately Stealing Bill. The Amend-
ments were agreed to, .and the Bill, was ordered to
be read a third time to-morrow.