The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-13 00:00:00

in the hands of the new Board? With respect to normal
schools some friends of his had asked the Noble Lord a
few questions. The Noble Lord had certainly said there
were persons to be brought up in those normal schools who
were to be competent to give instruction in the principles
of the Established Church, therefore it would be of im-
portanse to understand the principles upon which that
education was to be founded ; and as he inferred, from the
Noble Lord's speech, that other instructors, pr ofessing
other doctrines than those of the Established Church,were
to be educated in the normal schools, it would be of im-
portance to know in what manner their education was to
be conducted. He understood that religion was to be the
basis of education in the normal schools. On what basis
was that religious education to be founded, when it was
evident that the instructors might profess different doc-
trines ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Noble Lord
also proposed that the children should be instructed in
mechanical pursuits. He (Sir R. P.) thought that per-
fection in a trade could only be acquired by a proper appli-
cation to that trade. The only way to make an expert
workman was to bring him up to his profession at
the proper age.—( Hear, hear,) He did not under-
stand the Noble Lord with respect to that part of
his plan which related to parochial assessments. He
appprehended the Noble Lord would have the utmost
difficulty in introducing or enforcing any plan of
parochial assessment.—( Hear, hear.) He did not see how
it would be possible to introduce such a system. The first
question that would be asked in the parish would be, Who
is the master? What is his religious persuasion? And
the Noble Lord had very justly said that such was the
difference of opinion on that question at present, that it
was better for the Government not to interfere. He (Sir
R. Peel) had a strong impression that the same principle
might be applied to the parish that was applied to the
Government—( Hear, hear)—and that they ought not to
introduce the principle of compulsory assessments. He
would put the case of a parish in which the Dissenters
were in the minority, and the Church had a majority—
he did not think it would give satisfaction to the
Dissenters, if the Churchwardens in vestry, being in a
majority, were to pass a vote by which the Church party
was to tax the Dissenter. He also hoped that the Noble
Lord would pause before he gave any controul on educa-
tion to the Poor Law Union. It appeared to him that in
many parts of the country the duties devolving on the
Guardians of the poor were already sufficiently onerous.
—( Hear.) He trusted the attendance of the Guardians to
their duty would still continue, but be hoped the Noble
Lord would take care how he ever burdened the Guardians
of the Union, and how be gave them functions to perform
other than those connected with their duties as Poor Law
Guardians, and that he would take care not to sub-
ject them to inability on account of any unnecessary
interferences.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the Noble
Lord disclaimed all direct interference on the part of the
orernment in establishing schools. There was to be
no direct power of superintendence ;so far so good but at
the same time that he (Sir R. Peel) stated it was satisfac-
tory to him to hear that disclaimer he reserved to himself
the power of considering the plan of the Noble Lord in
Committee, as to Government having the power of super-
intending the general education of the people.—( Hear,
hear.) He for one was deeply convinced of the absolute
necessity, of the moral obligation, there was to provide for
the education of the people. He was at the same time
perfectly convinced that that could only be effectually done
in this country, where so much of religious dissent prevailed,
without disturbing the good understanding and the exist-
ing harmony between the professors of different faiths, and
it was infinitely more likely to be done if it were left to the
voluntary exertions of parties—permitting each to educate
his children, but to educate them on the principle of the
faith to which they belonged ; and he could not but express
his confidence that the Church of England was awakened
to the absolute necessity—not by force—not by compul-
sion—not by interfering in the slightest degree with
the principles of perfect religious freedom—but were
awakened to the necessity of assuming that position
which they ought to assume in concert and cordial
co-operation with the landed proprietors and others in this
country, and that the only satisfactory way of giving that
education in this country, which ought to be founded on
the basis of religious knowledge, was for each party to act
for themselves, imposing no restriction on others ; but above
all, thatithe members of the Established Church, whether lay
or clerical, should not be ashamed of insisting that in their
education the doctrine and principles of the faith which
they professed should be an indispensable condition to any
voluntary system of education.--( Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that, with respect to' the
question which the Right Hon. Baronet had put to him as to
whether the sum that was to be voted by the House for
building of schools, under the National Society, was to be
under the superintendence of the Treasury, or of the Com-
mittee, his answer would be, that as they were placing
other subjects of a similar nature under the direction of
a Board of Committee, the disposal of those grants were also
likely to come under their direction. The Right Hon.
Baronet seemed to attach a great deal of importance to
that, though he did not think it was a point of very great
importance, because the Treasury, after all, consisted of
none but official persons, and their disposition to grant
money would be regulated by the mode of distribution
which the two Societies, the National Society, and the
British and Foreign School Society pointed out as the mode
in which the greatest amount of instruction could be given.
With respect to the plan itself it was necessary that on
this occasion he should make a general statement respect-
ing it, akhough on several material points of connection no
definite results had been arrived at. It would be a mat-
ter of general discussion out of doors, and had he not
made these statements, reports would be circulatedand pro-
positions propounded as the propositions of the Government!'
—( Hear.) We must all be aware of the extreme
difficulty there is in eradicating an impression that has
once taken possession of the mind. The Government
would have experienced this difficulty—it would be in rain
for them to deny that these propositions were contrary to
the plan that the Government had originally intended to
propose—they would be told that they had been driven
from bringing these propositions forward, in consequence
of the opposition that had been offered to them—(Loud
cheers from the Ministerial benches)—this was the reason
why he had offered these explanations. At the same time,
before this vote would be proposed to the House, the
Right Hon. Baronet and every Hon. Member would have
an opportunity of expressing his sentiments on the subject.
The Right How. Baronet had expressed his sentiments of
delight at the interest manifested by the Established Church
as regards this subject. He (Lord J. Russell) rejoiced
as much the Right Hon. Baronet himself could do at this
display of zeal on the part of the Established Church en
the subject of education.—( Hear, hear.) But he must be
permitted to express a doubt if this show of zeal would have
taken place if in other quarters a strong disposition had
not been shown to forward the subject of education.—
( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial
Benches.) He must be permitted to express a doubt,
whether, had this not been the case, we should have seen
any further exertion on the part of the Church than we did
see during the long period—(Loud cheers from the
Ministerial Benches, which drowned the conclusion of the
sentence. )—He saw with great pleasure that the Church
was at length awakening to the importance of this
subject ; but he could not but entertain some appre-
hension with regard to the manner of the expression
of that zeal, although he had no suspicion that it would be
permitted to end in a manner which must encounter oppo-
sition from the Right Hon. Baronet, as well as from himself.
Doctrines had recently been propounded, which, if carried
out, would establish that which the Right Hon. Baronet
himself says he should oppose—the throwing education
wholly and exclusively into the hands of the Church. He
( Lord John Russell) did not think any serious conse-
quences were to be apprehended on this subject, but if
attention were not called to it considerable inconvenience
might follow. Having made up his mind on the subject, he
trusted to the general feelings of the House, in favour of
a free and general system of education.—(Loud cries of
" blear, hear 1" in the midst of which the Noble Lord sat
down.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL did not object to the Board
having the power, but he wished to ask whether the Board
would adopt a similar plan to that adopted by the Govern-
ment with regard to the appropriation of these grants. He
also asked if the Noble Lord would have the goodness to
direct an account to be made out stating the proportion
borne by the members of the Established Church who had
applied for these grants, to those of other denominations
who had applied for them ? He should not have said a
word on this subject had not the Noble Lord stated that it
was his intention merely to state the general views of the
Government.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated, in answer to the ques-
tion of the Right Hon. Baronet, as to whether the Board
would adopt a similar plan to that adopted by the Govern-
ment with regard to the appropriation of these grants, that
that was a point which was as yet under consideration, and
on which he could not pledge himself.
Mr. BRISCOE said that an account similar to that
asked for by the Riglat Hon. Baronet would not show the
relasive amount of zeal hut of wealth. He begged leave
to call the attention of the House to the state of religion
and education in the remote parts of the country. He
hoped that some alteration would take place on that sub-

ject, and that the most necessitous parts of the country
would not be the most neglected.
The papers were ordered to lie on the table.
ROYAL EXCHANGE.
Sir MATTHEW WOOD rose to move for a Select
Committee to take into their consideration the several
plans for the improvement of the metropolis, concerning
which reports were made to this House in the years 1836,
1837, and 1838, together with any other plans for the
same object which they may deem deserving of considera-
tic:al, and to report their opinion as to the expediency of
adopting any of the said improvements ; and also as to
the best means of carrying the same into effect.
An HON. MEMBER on the Opposition side of the House
said, he believed the halfpenny tax on coals, which, by the
Act, had been extended for six years, for th• purpose of
raising 150,0001. for the improvement of the City—and
principally for re-building the Royal Exchange—he be-
lieved that tax would in six years raise much more than the
required sum, and he wished to know what was to be
done with the remainder ?

Alderman WOOD said (so far as we could hear the
worthy Alderman, who spoke very inaudibly) that he
could not answer in this respect for the City of London.
Mr. H. H IND E was understood to say that he did not
think tilt Committee last Session had recommended the
re-appoifitment, and he could see no reason for it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER inti-
mated that there was in his opinion no objection to the re-
4Ppointment.
*Sir R. NGLIS said he had beard it insinuated that
the chief object of the re-appointment of the Committee
was that it might be called upon to give an opinion
as. to what their intention had been in respect to a ter-
thn part of their report as regarded the re-building of
e Royal Exchange. Against such a course he must
potest. The construction of an Act of Parliament ought
to be left to the law officers of the Crown, or if they were
not enough, to a court of law, and should not be referred
to any Committee whatever.
T..e HANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
lk •.t been aware that the worthy Alderman was going
'forward the motion for the re-appointment of the
....-06, it might have been said that he should have
InNie tbeflkoposition himself ; but the fact was that he

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