The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-09 00:00:00

COUNTY AND DISTRICT CONSTABLES BILL,

On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the above Bi
was recommitted.

On clause 1 beinc, proposed,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he intended to introduce a
proviso for the appointment of a chief constable to each
district when counties were divided, for the purpose of re-
turning Members of Parliament.
__ .

Mr.—HUM E hoped the counties would not be saddled
with the expence to be caused byltheißill at one Meeting;
he hoped the proceedings of one Meeting would neces-
sarily require the confirmation of another.
Mr. BR AMSTON thought there was great weight in
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, for
the expence under the Bill would quite equal the present
County Rate.

A long and desultory discussion then took place, as to
the propriety of ample notice being given of the meetings
of the Magistrates,

Mr. AdLIONBY suggested that the following words
be introduced into the clause :—" Due notice having been
given by advertisement in some one or more newspapers
published, or usually circulated, in such county, at least
three weeks previous to the holding of such Quarter Ses-
sions, or adjournments thereof, or such special meeting."
As it was a matter of difficulty to draw up amendments
of this kind on the spur of the moment, he would leave the
wording of it to the Noble Lord.

Mr. 'WAKLEY would like very much to see the power
over these constables in the hands of the Board of Guar-
dians who were elected by the rate-payers.
Lord J RUSSELL said, if that was done it would be
immediately said the constables ware intended for the
mere purpose of forcing the law.
Mr. WAKLEY said the Noble Lord had hit the right
nail upon the head. He had caught the idea; for be
frankly confessed he thought they were raised for no other
purpose than to impose that law in perpetuity upon the
country.

Mr. E WART observed that Anse constables were to
be permanently appointed in the counties. Now that
would be inconsistent with the enactment he proposed to
insert in the Bill, that the law should only last for two
years. He would, therefore, move tho omission of the
word "permanent."
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the word
being struck out.
The motion was then agreed to.
The clause, after several verbal amendments had been made,
was agreed to.

Mr. T. ATTWOOD proposed to add to the clause the fol-
lowing proviso :—" That previous to the levying of any rate
for the purposes of the Aot, or the application of any kind of
money for these purposes, the consent of a majority of the rate-
payers shall be obtained in each county, or division of each
county, at a general meeting of the rate-payers, to be specially
called by such Justices, at not lass than ten days notice, for the
purpose of taking the subject into consideration."
After a few remaks from Mr. Hu mi.. and Mr. WAtttarllTON,
the Gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place, and
the motion was negatived without a division.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. AGLIONBY suggested that the rules for the regula-
tion of the Police should be laid on the table of the House,
within a certain number of days after they were made.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no objection to the course, and
the clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 3 and 4 were agreed to.
On clause 5, which gives the power of appointment to the
Chief Constable, subject to the approval of two or mole Justices,
Sir H. VERNEY moved the omission of the words " or
more," on which the House divided. The numbers were—
For the clause ................. 56
For the amendment... ................ . 23
11[ grit , ... .............................. 11. —33
Mr. Ti DUNCOMBE moved, as a proviso, that the con-
stables to be employed under the Bill should not vote for any
Member of Parliament, or interfere at any election. Whether
it was proper or not he did not mean to argue, but the City
and Metropolitan Police officers dared not vote under a penalty
of IOOL , and if it was proper for them so also would it be for
this body.

Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the proviso, as the
principle had been often acted upon.
Mr, KEMBLE must divide the House if the proviso were

EVEN ING EDITION.

made so general as to prevent a constable from voting in an
county other than the one in which he acts. .

Mr. WARBURTON said the proviso must at all events ex-
tend to contiguous counties, for Magistrates generally held the
Commission in both counties.
Mr. KEMBLE would divide the House if any one supported
him. He was astonished to find gentlemen who were always
crying out for an extension of the Suffrage doing all in their
power upon every occasion to deprive persons of it,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE. Why did not the Hon. Member
oppose the principle in the City Police Bill. Suppose aco
stable in York were a Freeholder in Northumberland, why
should he be allowed to leave his duty at a time when it was
important he should be present.
Lord J. RUSSELL would introduce a clause at another
stage, in conformity with that contained in the Metropolitae
Police Act.
The proviso was withdraws, and the clause, as amended,
was ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clvase 6 was agreed to without amendment.
Clsuses 7,8, and 9 were agreed to.
On clause 10 being proposed,
Mr. ESTCOUR'I' thought some part of the expense of this
force should be borne by the public. It would fall heavy upon
Ilse occupier of land.
Mr. HUME thought the House had been very remiss already
iu parting with the public money to parties over whom they
had no control, and he trusted the bad precedent would not be
followed in this case. The counties were to receive the belle-
fit of the force, and ought to pay for it.
Sir H. VERNEY said the measure was for the benefit of
the whole country, and the country ought to bear some 01
the expense. The plunderers were not attached to the loca-
lity—they were generally town-bred, and were driven into the
country by the gr..atly improved police there.
Mr. WARBURTON said in all boroughs the borough-rates
were burdened with the whole expence of their police. WI
then have one rule for the boroughs and another for counties
Why should he proprietors be relieved at the public expellee?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not think it would be fair to
take any money for the maintenance of these police from the
Coasolidate 1 Fund, to which boroughs contributed largely, and
at the same time maintained the whole of their police.
The clause was agreed to.
Clauses 11, 12, and 13, were agreed to.
On clause 14 being proposed,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to Town Councils having power(
to transfer their police over to the county. The management °
the police was virtually given to the rate-payers, and he cOO
ten,led the Town Councils had no right to such a power.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the words being
struck out.
The clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of the
Bill.

Clause 15 was agreed to.
On dance 16, n'll
Mr. HUME hoped that no person appointed under the
wou'd be allowed
.to receive fees.—(Hear, hear.) A ele—
salary ought to be fixed.

The clause was agreed to.
Clause 17 was also agreed to.
3lr. EWART moved, that the Bill remain in force till the
Ist of August, 1841, and no longer. Several Hon. Meguh,erie•
who took an interest in the question were now absent, an
thought a subject of such importance ought not to be deeivbet
up.,n permanently. He also would urge upon the House t'ge
the country had had no time to consider the Bill, in conseclee—
of its having been brought in at so late a period of the Sesslee;
Mr. WARBURTON said, that by this measure the count
taxation would be doubled, and such a power ought not erret
'
;:,
nently to be given, without putting it' in the power of rani-
ment again to consider the matter. He would, therefore,
support the motion of the Hon. Member for Wigan. • bt
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had stated the other n'L
the reason which had induced him not to make this a teeirt.
rary Bill. One reason was that they could not have the bi:
persons, if the power was only to last two years, whee.,l toi
might be liable to be dismissel, and he could not nowag".-
the proposition of the Hon. Member.
Mr. T. ATT WOOD said the Noble Lord appeared to bet,
very anxious to preserve the peace, but his real object w_eLi
establish despotism—(Laughter)—to establish the inf'
French system of centralization.—(Loud laughter.) ber
Mr. D'ISRAELI supported the motion of the Hon- l‘Acel tiv
for Wigan. During the last twenty years, crime had greeeie
decreased, and that was a strong argument in favour of the
ose
system. The present system of revolutionizing the police ar.,,
principally from the testimony of a London Alderman, who Pb
cured the assistance of two of the London police to prevens ret
turnip-tops from being stolen. There was less crime in the °ld,
districts of this country than in any other country of the vrer.l
The two great offences were poaching and wood-cutting:
the gamekeepers were in this respect a sufficient rural po';'t
for seldom did offenders of this description escape. The gr,
call for the police arose in the manufacturing districts, beit
cer
inquiry into the causes of the disturbances ought to take Poe
which could not be done at this late period of the Session.
di be
trusted that the Bill would be abandoned, as nothing o'll
gained by it.
ded.
Lord WORSLEY said that instead of crime having decrettee
within the last 20 years, he was sorry to say that it had increfro
In the county in which he resided there was a great iiiieences
tion to prosecute, from a fear of the coniequeo," were
which might ensue, and therefore many offences which Bill
committed were not brought forward. If this,, vioce
was only to exist for two years, the Magistrates would ficsit
a strong disinclination to bring it into force and nothing a"
effective constabulary force would be established.
Mr. JONES opposed the clause.
Mr. EWART replied, after which the House divided, WWI
there appeared—
For the clause
Against it 77
--56
Majority against the clause
The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered
received to-morrow.

POO-RATES .
The Order of the Day having be been readBILL for receiving the
Report of the Committee on this Bill, ch
Mr. HAWF.S said this Bill gave the Guardians too nt
power over the Overseers. He thought there ought to be
summons in the first instance, and that the parties ought t 0
allowed to appeal to the Quarter Sessions.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed that there ought to heml,
summons, but could not consent to granting the appeals "-
cause it would be productive of great delay.
Mr. HAWES thought if there was a hearing before U'
trates there could be no objection to a further hearing bee'l-
the Court of Quarter Session, where the case could he too"'
better argued and decided.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said if this amendment
should be introduced the clause would be wholly inoperat7l
If there was an appeal to the Quarter Sessions, why shoo
there not be one to the Court of Queen's Bench, and thence
the House of Lords; and in the meantime the poor might
left to starve.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—The Attorney-General said eth
poor would starve if the appeal were granted, but. that did „ot
appear. The disputes in the parish of Lambeth was the °;tb
pretence for this Bill. Now the Hon. Member for Lawl)
said the Overseers had never refused money sufficient for klee.l):
ing the poor, but they disputed several sums for surveYet_Aary
made without their knowledge and consent, and for the, 3701.
fe
for a Clerk, who was dismissed, and never did a day 5b
He hoped the House would not at that period agree to V.`not
Bill, especially as the whole question must be discussed
fat
Session. He would move that the Report be brought P
day
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member could net
make t
the
hat motion.
DUNCOE n moved a roviso that for
tae
should not operate inMB anyparish having
a Local Act °
government of its Poor, • etb
Lord J. RUSSELL said there might be difficulties to
way, it had better p
be ostponed. tbei
Mr. DARBY had been informed by the Noble Lord'ed
by
the Bill was not intended to operate in parishes govern Aid
Local Acts, surely then, there could be no difficulty in to
that clB B. r ea.
Sir HALL said, it was distinctly understood that it °,
not to apply to such arishes.
Mr. HUNIE said, p
had that not been distinctly unaf;t tbe
the table would have been covered with petitions ails
n
Bill. Faith ought to be kept with the public. vos not
Captain PECHELL said, he understood the Bill 0 0-as
only not to apply to parishes under Local Acts, but alse;itob
not to those under Gilbert's Act; his constituents were ,
alarmed at the Bill, and were only quieted by the prom
the Noble Lord. Aith
Lerd JOHN RUSSELL had no intention to interferee pro'
,b
such parishes, but he was not sure that the words of th
an
vino would carry more meaning than the Hon. Geatlernrail
tended. He could not consent to the introduction of the f till
then—he would propose the adjournment of the discussoxi
to-morrow to allow time for consideration. 13/ll'tb
Mr. GRINSDITCH had great objection to the
House could not do better than to throw it out. .

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE pressed his clause.
The House divided, when there appeared,
For the clause . l4
Against it
Majority against the clause
The Bill was ordered to be engrossed and read a to"'
to-morrow.
The Report of the Committee on the Rogue Money
ment (Scotland) Bill was brought up. The Bill was ore
to be engrossed and read a third time on Monday.
The Report of the Committee on the Metropolitan Ime/e.
ment Bill was brought up, and ordered to be read a third P";,,,0
to-morrow.
The Militia Pay Bill went through Committee. Report V
oi
morrow.
The Joint Stock Banking Companies Bill was read a se7
time, and ordered to be committed. ne,411
The report on the Stage Carriages Bill was received,
Bill ordered mot be read a third time to-morrow. ths
On the ion of the ATTORNEY- GENER we&
Lords' Amendments to the Imprisonment for Debt W.'
considered and agreed to. d titag
The Grand Jury Cess (Ireland) Bill was read a third
and passed. • isitr
Lord HOWICK brought in a Bill for the better adfroneyd
tion of justice in detached parts of counties, which Was I
first time, after a few words from Mr. Hume.
SLAVE TRADE (PORTUGAL) BILL. which
Lord PALMERSTON rose in pursuance of the watictebefops
he had given to move for leave to bring in a Bill for e.lej
pression of the Slave Trade. The House was avlar1„00, said
circumstances which induced him to make this raer'n't,,j(l
knew by a Committee which had been 111)11.1-,A bee:,
search the Lords Journals that the Bill which "'"-floe',
passed for that purpose, and sent to the et,,l'r,r heats)
of Parliament, had not paiud that House.—e-lear'attb,e3
This proceeding might have led this House to irov.gine
was a difference of opinion between the two House' w,n ssbAl
ment on this great, interesting, and i:n ortant subject, jstel'
it related ; and if that difference OpiPnion had really' erioose-61
would have been a subject of deep- cbncern to this 0. 0,
(hHear. hear)--andtirefi 0-
-have materially if not en er
t e efforts which this 'riouse in concurrence with the of , cok,
of Parliament ha. '.l made to put an end to this abominallot toPo
Hut he was '
nappy to be able to state to the 11°101 tai'to
Procee(l2ings of the other House of Parliament whirl' rill's.
pla,;i:e since the rejection of that Bill, tended satisk` toy ,ct
slim that the rejection of that Bill did not arise frotea-t obroo
ference between the Houses of Parliament and the .greoricePtior
in view, but must have been founded on ntr'semetii ids
of the grounds on which the Bill was 'raw! °of
some objection as to matters of form connecooose to
the proceedings coupled with that Bill, because 'the
adarrti%
Lords had since they rejected that Bill, sent up en , 00;11
the Crown couched in the strongest possible te„rra."e'stl
upon the Crown to give to the cruizers of her n'aigi to nrose
orders as might eventually enable them to put &writ the 1"ote
vent the traffic in slaves. That address proved that P" Of
with ota bieb
of Lords was sincerely desirous of co-operating
in the . attainment of that object—(Hear, hear) ;es
old
address, by calling upon the Crown to take inee- kung, this
the Crown would not hesitate for a moment in t
which sod
thus remove that ground of formal objection en .coept,troin
House was led to suppose they were indisposed to ;Igo 'AO
pa.i this particular measure, As far as he could J, obje.„--0
the proceedings which had taken place, two grounds, and 0,
had been taken, first, as to the course of proceedZiaS ,se:fo
condly, as to the particular nature of the Bill. ht to Pose
tended, in the first place, that the proceeding nag foot „es
originated in consequence of a communication he f
Crown to Parliament. That objection would n°(loose °
big
moved by the answer to the address of thee re..o
in th P I
Lords. The other objection was that fAce.,it
of the Bill Parliament was called on to Pre" is 01*0
opinion upon the differences which had arisen beV:ieeie beep
Britain and Portugal, and. it was understood to ha
-

sllegecithat it belonged to the Crown, acting by the advice OF
its responsible Councillors., to pronounce upon that difference,
and that Parliament ought not to have been brought in to
(
n'Pouse the opinion of the Crown and identify itself with
• aLodevig measures which belong rather to the responsible
that e_rs of the Crown.—(Hear.) He proposed to get rid of
, . abjection, by entirely altering the preamble of the Bill
which he now proposed to bring in. He proposed that the Bill
should be entirely Parliamentary, merely reciting the expe-
diency of giving certain powers to the Crown and the Courts
6,n of England and the Crown of Portugal. He hoped
ti two circumstances would remove the objee-
oos which the House of Lords felt, and that this
)nouse might be entitled to hope that the house of Lords
would not refuse the means by which it might be carried out.
—( Hear, hear.) He should at that late hour have contented
himself with this statement, but he felt it necessary for his own
vindication, and for the vindication of this House, to explain the
course
of proceeding which was adopted in relation to this Bill.
(1 was objected that the Bill was making war by Act of Puha-
m eat. Those who made such objections seemed to have forgot-
ten
atht the Bill itself arose out of Parliamentary proceedings.
1 Last Session of Parliament, by addresses from both Houses
of,, Parliament, brought to the notice of the Crown
the fact that Portugal had refused to complete an ade-
quate treaty to put down the Slave Trade. He had then
stated that the (.3overnmnent would endeavour to prevail upon
Portugal to sign such a treaty, and if they failed, that they
Wo,uldeome to Parliament for powers to carry out the object ;
and in reply they were assured that if they were obliged to come
to
Parliament that such powers would at once be given. In the
early Part of the present Session he had stated to the House
t at they had failed in obtaining such a treaty as was ne-
cessary. He then said he had a Bill in preparation, but
that he wished to postpone it until the whole of the
papers had been laid on the table. Those papers had
been laid on the table, but they seemed to have escaped the
notice of those who said they were making war by Acts of Par-
!lament. With respect to the Bill itself, if it was any departure
adopted,
the usual proceedings of Parliament, it was not hastily
sfopted, but was adopted after long consulation not only with
his:,,OWn political friend, but with those who did not usuallyi act
t!,`',ttle Government ; they all preferred the preamble as it
!""°- That House, however, world easily make such an al-
teration irs the preamble as was necessary to obtain unanimity.
.--:-.( Hear.) From the perfect unanimity which existed on the
iiill in that HMIs; it had passed almost sub silentio, as all
parties knowing its necessity were anxious that no time should
wise lost waiting furan Gppoit mity of discussing it. Portugal
as baund by different Trea`les with this country to
;.jos?lish the slave trade—to do all in her power to utterly abc-
,hn 't- Those stipulations were not made gratuitously—we
alf made great sacrifiees.—( Hear.) We had given her nearly
00 a million of money, besides various sums, amounting to
d 'tfti, to her merchants for seizures, which were consi-
ered not strictly regular. Tee treaties of 1815 and
18.1,,7 contained engagements stringent enough for car-
ry. g out the purposes they had in view. Portugal had
!•toelatod in a greater degree than any country in the history of
,/!e civilized world had ever before violated a solemn treaty.
/1 believed that no such flagrant breach of faith had ever
itee s
n shown by any civilized nation. Instead of abolishing or
atteruptiug to abolish the Slave Trade, she encouraged it ; and
?w,ing to the influence of those who had been enriched by the
ninanurnan traffic, her flag had become the Slave Trading
The for the rest of the world.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Trade • had encouraged that trade, and now not a slave
tut log vessels crossed the ocean, but carried the prosti-
cd flag of Portugal.—( Hear, hear.) During the last year,
non less than 100,000 Africans had been carried from liberty anl
me to slavery in Brazil or Cuba, under the flag of Portugal.
Such was the manner in which the negotiations had been en-
tered into, and such the manner in which they had been
violated. The Government had made many attempts to per-
suade Portugal to do that which she ought to have done of her
Own accord, but from Government after Government they had met
with refusals, one after another raised objection after objection
of the most unfounded nature, and allegations totally devoid of
truth. She was asked to make the slave trade piracy. No;
she objected, because the punishment was capital. They
pressed upon her to make the punishment a severe secondary
one, as in Englsnd, or to make it a piratical offence—
that was an offensive term and could not be agreed
o.nd They proposed even to restrict the right of search,
avvould agree to no mixed commission, because France
'413 allowed her own tribunal. Throughout' the whole
12f the negociations, it was eviden that there was .a
fixed and obstinate determination to procrastinate and d s no-
thing. The Government had even told Portugal that if it did
not consent to fulfil her engagents this country would take the
matter indo its hands, therefore they were not chargeable with
coming hastily down and proposing coercive measures. It was
quite evident that Portugal was determined not to consent, but
to let this country take redress by her own means. He did test
believe that the Government were to blame, but they were con-
trolled by a domestic power which had been made stronger
than themselves by the profit upon the inhuman traffic, and he
fully believed that the measure would not only be beneficial to
Portugal, but would be acceptable to the Government and the
nation. Portugal had no necessity for slaves. The greater
Portion of the ships engaged in the Slave Trade under her flag
belonged to Spain and Brazil—to pirates of all stations
or no nation as suited their purposes, and Portugal
had no more interest in them than this country had.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) They were going to do nothing to Portugal
which she had any right to resent. The powers they asked
for by the Bill were absolutely necessary for the purpose
of carrying out the objects both Houses of Parliament
• had so much at heart, and therefore he trusted
the other House would cordially concur hi the Bill.
It was true the Crown might by its prerogative take measures
Which would most effectually put down the slave trade, but
there were many difficulties in the way. In the first place the
officers under the Crown might be exposed to vexatious pro-
ceedings in the Courts of Law in this country, and he was sure
that neither House of Parliament would wish to em-
ploy the officers of the Navy to execute its orders
without being sure that the execution of these or-
ders should not be attended with any consequences person.
ally inconvenient to themselves.—( Hear, hear.) Next, it was
true that they might capture ships, but it would not be fitting
that this country should& me ships prima facie the
property of subjects of another state and deal with
them, without having proved before some Court
of Record, the ground of such proceeding, the fact that these
ships were engaged in acts which rendered them liable to
seizure. The House of Lords feeling a becoming zeal for the
honour of the country and the dignity of the Crown, would not
wish the Crown to take steps which might expose this country
to imputations there would be no possibility of disproving. It was
also necessary there should be an enactment to define that which
should constitute a slave trader, because it was not merely
having slaves on beard, but being equipped in a particular man-
ner.—( Hear, hear.) But it was necessary there should be a
legislative sanction to empower the Court to determine that such
Ships should be deemed to be a ship engaged in the slaver t
trade,a:i
and condemned on that ground. It was quiteae the ea
power of
el h
was just and right that the Crown should hr
giving the same bounties to those who seized these ships as
in other cases. These were the pow, rs which were required,
and these powers he was convinced would be sufficient, and
would enable the Crown to put down the traffic in slavery under
the Portuguese flag, and a great object would be accomplished.
He was aware that it was said that the trade when driven
one flag, would seek refuge under another ; but if
fromthe y did, they might have no flag—they might divest
themselves of every document which should enable the captor
to prove they belonged to any particular nation, so that
they might not be brought before the tribunals of any country
or a mixed commission. But he should propose a clause to
meet that, the last refuge of despairing crime.—( Hear,
hear.) The clause would enac' that any ship taken under
these circumstances should be dealt with as if an
English trader, provided that if she proved her na-
tionality she should not be adjudicated upon
by our Court, but be dealt with as before provided. And this
could not be construed as an interference with nationality, be-
cause if a ship cast off her nationality a complaint could not be
made that her nationality was not respected.—( Hear, hear. )
He trusted the time had now arrived when each nation
would prevent the slave trade being carried on under
its ' flag. Treaties for the purpose had been con-
cluded with Chili, Venezuela, and Buenos Ayres,
Mexico, although she had not concluded a treaty of execution,
had concluded a stipulation by which she obliged herself to
co-operate with us in the abolition of the Slave Trade, and he
trusted that all the States of South America would adopt the
same course. He was aware that the North American flag had
been much resorted to, but he could not hesitate a moment in
believing that it would use all the means which it
possessed to put down this abuse, for which purpose they had
already taken steps. If these powers were granted, he trusted
they would be sufficient. They were simple and short ;
the whole Bill might be contained in a sheet of
paper ; but that sheet of paper would become a potent
spell and give this country the power of putting an end
to a system which no imagination could conceive,
and the enormity of which: no tongue could adequately ex-
press,--(Hear, hear.) He trusted the Bill would pass unani-
mously in this House and receive the assent of the other House
of Parliament.

Sir S. LUSNINGTON cordially concurred in the sentiments
of the Noble Loid. Since the period of the treaty there had
been 2,000 ships with the Portuguese flag engaged in this
traffic, and which had carried not less than 1,000,000 slaves, of
whom not less than 120,000 had died on board.—(Hear,
hear.) The trade, in fact, instead of diminishing, had
increased, and he held in his hand the Shipping Gazette of
Rio Janeiro of the 31st of May, 1839, which stated there were
G 3 Portuguese vessels there at that time, 59 of which, he had
the best authority for saying, were employed in the slave
trade There had been a gross infraction of the treaty ;
not only had there been that infraction, but Portugal had
mocked and insulted this country by pretending to have abo-
lished the trade.—( Hear, hear.) He thought there had been
an entire misapprehension in the House of Lords with regard
to the former:Bi.l. That Bill had not at all contravened the
customary course of legislation. That Bill had not at all at-
tempted to do by Act of Parliament what the Crown might do
by prerogative, otherwise, as a constitutional lawyer, he would
never have supported it.--(Hear.) The Government had
adopted a wise course id endeavouring by pacific measures to
attain that en;l which every one must wish to see accomplished
before they had iecourse to any other. It was high time that
irifamoustraffic was put an end to, for it was not only a trade car.
Tied on by barter on the coast of Africa, but private
vessels were fitted cut, to seize the smaller vessels, thus com-
mitting a double robbery. In conclusion,
t the Right Hon.
Gentleman expressed his cioinv:e ion that the Bill would
become law when it was of his Noble Friend rightlyrdunderstood, and the explana-
tions
become known to Members of the other Pa l Palmerston) c
Douse.—(Hear. n)g it
Sir R. INGLIS was eertainbtadh svhen the misapprehension
under which the other House
labouredagreed to.
was cleared away,
the Bill would beesaiusly
eivet.nii3saTrelbieyeeshtso.uld
The
confine thentsol to mere Legislative
ted
country should Trepare for war, but
what had been it need
stated not
by
ye
resorted to. He fully concurred in
the Noble Lord.
Captain PECHELL said it was incumbent on the House to
pass this Bill which would perhaps remedy the inconveniences
arising from the proceedings in another place. They ought to
show that they did
not quail before the mighty power of
Portugal and the Empire ofb Brazil.— ( Hear and laughter. )
The }km And Gallant Member trusted that the Noble Lord
would force tLreugh the Bill without going through the usual
forms.
Sir T. ACLAND hoped that the present day would not ter-
minate without the Hal being completed and passed through
all its stages.
' Mr. P. HOWARD thought the progress of the Bill ought
to be accellerated, so that it might be immediately sent to
the other branch of the Legislature withiart delay.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Lord PALNIERSTON then gave notice that he should this
day move the suspension of the Standing Orders with respect
to' the Bill.

'Ole Bill was then brought in and ordered to be read a second
time t flay.
The linuso adjourned at a Quarter past Two o'Cloak.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Auousr 8.
The LORD CHANCELLOR too
at Five o'clock. k his seat on the Woolsack
A Message from the House of
Commons brought up the
Lower Canada Government Bill, the Custody of Infants'
Bill, the Cathedral and Ecclesiastical A
pp(,in,;:nents' Bill,
the London and Blackwall Commercial Railway Bi„., and.
the City of London Police Bill, with their Lordships'
amendments agreed to.
HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The Duke of ARGYLE stated, iu a very low tone of
laww-__

The Bill having passed through the Committee withou
amendments, the Report was received, and the House re.
sumed.

POSTAGE DUTIES BILL.

Lord DUNCANNON moved the Order of the Day for
the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Postage
Duties Bill.

The Bill passed through the Committee without amend.
ments, the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow
and the House resumed.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented a petition from
certain stationers in London and its vicinity, praying that
the LegislAure should not adopt stamped paper or enve-
lopes under the new penny postage system.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON the Public
Works ( Ireland) Bill passed through a Committee without
amendments, was reported, and ordered to be read a third
time to-morrow.

JURORS AND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON the Jurors and
Juries (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed.

SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL.
Lord DUNCANNON moved the Order of the Day
for the second reading of the Shannon Navigation Bill.
In doing so he was quite certain it was unne-
cessary for him to occupy the time of the House
in entering into any details. The great object of the Bill
was to open one of the finest rivers for navigation in Ire-
land, in which not only Ireland but Liverpool and all Eng-
land were deeply interested. The Bill had been framed
under a Report of a Committee appointed by the House of
Commons in the year 1830. The expenditure was calcu-
lated to be about 584,0001, which was proposed to be
advanced in the first instance by Government in Exchequer
bills, and the half of which was to be raised in proportions
by the counties.through which the Shannon passed, and to
be repaid to Government from those sources.

Tlie Duke of WELLINGTON approved of the gene-
ral nature of this Bill, but he could not but make an obser
vation upon the enormous funds which it was proposed to
advance for it. He could not see that so large a fund as
600,000/. should be advanced in Exchequer bills at once,
and he would therefore recommend that the issue of those
Bills should be thrown over a larger space of time.
The Marquis of L A NSDO WNE observed that
although it was necessary to give the power by this
Bill to issue the Exchequer bills, yet it was
not intended that any large proportion of those
bills should be issued at once. Supposing the
works to proceed with all possible speed, it was not con-
templated that more than 60,0001. would be required in the
course of next year ; and it was calculated that the work
would extend over a period of four or five, or six years.
Lord DUNCANNON said that the money was to be
lodged in the Bank of Ireland.
_ _

Lord E L LE NB OROUG H saw no provision in the Bill
by which it was imperative that the money should be lodged
in the Bank of Ireland, or that the Commissioners might
not call for an immediate issue of the whole amount ;
therefore, he thought clauses to meet those two cases
should be introduced. The amount to bo repaid was to be
divided into 276 parts; and he observed that Limerick was
only to pay four parts, though it would derive more ad-
vantage from this improvement than almost any town in
Ireland, which he considered to be one of the grossest jobs
he had ever heard of.--( Laughter.)
Lord DUNC A NNON defended the principle of divi.
sion of the shares to be paid by the different counties ;
and by the time the Bill went into Committee he should
be prepared with clauses to meet the Noble Baronet's ob-
jections, namely, clauses leaving it to the discretion of the
Treasury to make such advances as should seem fit to
the Treasury, upon application from the Commissioners,
and requiring the money to be deposited in the Bank o
Ireland.

Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI believed there
never had been a measure proposed for Ireland which
had excited deeper interest, or was likely to be of greater
advantage to that country, than the present. The ge•
neral objects of the Bill had been unanimously called for,
not only from the counties washed by the Shannon, but
by every county in Ireland, and every county called upon
to pay its quota would willingly do so. He congratu
lated the House and the country that this measure had
met with so little opposition-_a measure that was calcu-
lated to give so much employment to labourers in that
country, and to render unspeakable benefits to Ireland uni-
versally.

The'Duke of RICHMOND did not rise to object to
the Bill, but he could not quite agree with the implied
principles of the Noble Lord who had spoken last. It
appeared to him that, wherever there were to be great
improvements effected, those improvements ought to be
undertaken by private enterprise or public Companies.
It was not because there were a great number of people out
of employment in Ireland that a principle was to be laid
down that a large grant of public money should be made
for making an improvement there. If that were to be so,
there would be unceasing applications made to Parlia-
ments for grants of money. It was well known that in the
Highlands of Scotland there was a large number of people
unemployed at a certain season in every year,and if this were
to be a precedent, why should they not make an applica-
tion to Parliament next year? He confessed- he should
have liked this Bill much better if the money for the im-
provement had to have been raised out of the county's
purse ; still, considering the importance of it to Ireland,
he should not object to the second reading.
Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI in explanation
said, that although he considered that this Bill would give
employment to a vast number of labourers in Ireland, and
that that was a great recommendation to the Bill, yet it
was by no means solely upon that ground he gave it his
warmest support.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that this im-
provement had been the subject of many anxious inquiries,
and that the Bill was framed upon the advice of the best
authorities. It was an improvement calculated to benefit
the whole of Ireland, and far beyond what any private en-
terprise could possibly undertake. As his Noble Friend
the Noble Duke on the cross benches bad introduced
Scotland into this discussion, he would tell the House
that the money for this great improvement was not to
be advanced in the lax manner in which the grants for
the Caledonian Canal had been made, and that he (the
Noble Marquis) would be the last man to recommend a
grant on this occasion, upon any such principle.
The Duke• of RICHMOND said that Ireland was not
situated as Scotland was. In the latter place there were
assessed taxes, which there were not in Ireland. And
he would tell his Noble Friend who had just sat down
that he meant to vote next year for a sum of money to
improve the Caledonian Canal. And moreover, he was
perfectly sure that whoever lived to see it, after this large
sum of money had been sunk in the Shannon, an additional
grant would be required for it.
The Earl of RIPON had read the Reports upon
which this Bill had been founded. They were evidently
Reports of very scientific men, and men of great ability,
and it was impossible to read them without coming to the
conclusion, upon the testimony of the most disinterested
witnesses, that this would be one of the greatest im-
provements which could be projected with reference
to Ireland. He observed, that half of the money to
be advanced was to be a gift by the legislature, and there-
fore the Bill only provided for the repayment of half the
Exchequer bills. Upon this he hoped his Noble Friend
opposite would allow him to recommend his Noble Friend
without delay to look at the state of the Exchequer bill
market, otherwise he might probably find himself in some
difficulty.

LordGORT said a few words which we did not under•
stand.

The Marquis of WESTME ATH objected to any ob-
servation that was calculated to convey an idea that this
Bill was intended to promote anything like private benefit.
It was to give effect to a great public undertaking that was
far beyond the accomplishment of any private company,
and which would undoubtedly be productive of national
benefit.

Lord LYNDHURST said that there was already a
Commission existing for conducting Public Works in Ire-
land, and he wished, therefore, to know why the Noble
Viscount had not placed the proceedings with respect to
the Shannon Navigation under that Commission. He
could not see why a new Commission should be appointed,
especially when It was clear that in doing so they were run-
ning counter to the provisions under which the Act of the
6th and 7th of William the Fourth was passed. He
thought the Noble Viscount would do wise to adept the
suggestion of his Noble Friend, by which the present
Board would be allowed to do all the business.

Lord DUNCANNON said that the present course had
been adopted at the suggestion of Col. Burgoyne.
Lord LYNDHURST had read Col. Burgoyne's letter,
and after reading that he thought the proposition he had
made was much more consistent with his recommendation
than the appointment of a new Commisaion.
The Earl of DEVON thought the carrying through the
works contemplated by the Bill would require a great deal
of additional assistance. He admitted that the work
would be most beneficial, and he thought, therefore, that
the Board should have the power of appointing new
engineers and surveyors if necessary.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed.
PENNY POSTAGE.

Lord BROUGIIAM presented a petition from the
city of Aberdeen, in favour of a uniform rate of postage.

UNLAWFUL OATHS (IRELAND) BILL.

Lord DUNCANNON on moving the committal of this
Bill, said that it had been rendered necessary in conse-
quence of the difficulty that had been met with in dealing
void) the Societies to which it related. The sub-
ject of that difficulty had engaged the attention of
both the present and former Governments, who had
found it difficult to lix upon the persons who had taken
these oaths. This subject had engaged the attention of the
Gore:nment during the last year, and in the present Ses-
sion the subject had been alluded to by the Solicitor-Ge-
neral for Ireland, who had stated that he could not deny
that such Societies had existed. The present Bill had,
therefore, been prepared for the purpose of having it de•
Glared that persons acted illegally who belonged to those
Societies. The Noble Lord opposite (Wharncliffe) bad
made some objections the other night
to several of the
clauses in the Bill, and in, consequence of those objections
he was prepared to introduce words into those clauses which
he thought would have the effect of meeting those ohjec-
tiQns, He trusted therefore that their Lordships would
allow the niu go into Committee.
Lord WHARNC4I
fp E said that it was far from his
interitimi to do anything to impede the progress of the
Bill, but before he proceeded to state to their Lordships
what was the pyidenee that had been taken before the

voice, so as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, that he
had (as we understood) received her Majesty's commands
to state, in answer to the Address she had received on
Friday last from their Lordships, that she had received
that Address with great satisfaction, and that she
should direct orders to be sent to her cruisers,
and communications to be made with foreign
Governments as soon as possible on the subject of the
address, with a view to put an end to the slave trade in
the Brazils and Portugal.
The Bishop of LONDON moved for certain returns
relative to taxes in India.
SOLDIERS PENSIONS BILL.
On the motion of Lord DUNCANNON the House
resolved itself into a Committee on the Soldiers' Pensions
Bill.

I Committee on Crime in Ireland, he could not but congra-
tulate the Noble Lord, that in consequence of the late dis-
cussion he had felt it necessary to bring forward some
measure to proceed further than the law at present au-
thorised them to do. He thought their Lordships were
entitled to take credit for the introduction of this Bill,
because he believed that it was the sitting of the Com-
mittee that had occasioned it, and if he had any doubt
upon the subject he need only advert to what had taken
place. Government had slept entirely upon this subject
until the Committee was appointed, and then it was,
and then only, that the present Bill was introduced.—
( Hear, hear.) Year after year the state of Ireland
had been brought before the House of Commons, but there
was no hope of a fair hearing in that House, or that an in.
quiry should be made on that subject, and such being the
case, his Noble Friend had determined to bring the matter
before the House of L •rds. The consequence of that
determination was the appointment of the Committee,
immediately after the appointment of which the
Noble Lords opposite introduced the present Bill:
The Committee was appointed to inquire into the Adminis-
tration of the Noble Marquis after he had left Ireland, and
he (Lord Wharneliffe) conceived it was quite competent
to the House of Lords to appoint a Committee to inquire
into the conduct of any person after he had withdrawn
from the Administration. But tha House of Commons
had decided by a majority of 22 that they would acquit the
Government without any inqniry at all.
Lord HOLLAND—It was their business, and not
ours.

Lord WH A RNCLIFFE—Did the Noble Lord mean
to say the House of Lords was not to inquire into the con-
duct of any public functionary?—( Hear, hear.) Or that
the House of Lords was not to inquire into the adminis-
tration of justice ?—( Hear, hear.) If they were told that
Secret Societies existed, were they to hold their tongues
and remain quiet ? It was as much the right of
the House of Lords to interfere, as it was the right of
the House of Commons, although he admitted an impeach-
ment would have to come from the House of Commons.
But what was that majority of 22 in the House of Com-
mons composed of? Why, of the very persons who were
either themselves accused, or whose conduct would proba-
bly form a subject of inquiry. The moment he ( Lord
Wharncliffe) was placed in the chair of the Committee, he
determined that nothing should take place which could, in
the slightest degree be considered unfair or partial, and
he had afforded ample opportunity of evidence being
brought forward in defence of the Government. Then it
was said, why had the Committee not made a Report ?
And it was said by that part of the press which sup-
ported the Government, that that showed the Committee
had nothing to say against the Government. But
he ( Lord Wharncliffe) felt that any Report coming
from that Committee expressing an opinion might
be open to the charge of partiality. He believed it had
been said by a Noble Lord in another place that that
Committee was a packed Jury, and that there was in that
Committee a majority of 13 to 5. He (Lord Wharncliffe)
must say it did not appear to him that there was any great
degree of unfairness in the way that Committee was ap-
pointed. As originally named, it would have consisted of
11 Peers who sat on the Opposition side of the House and
of ten on the Ministerial side, and a Noble and Learned
Lord, who, although he sat on the Ministerial benches,
yet was not considered, he believed, by the Noble Viscount
at the head of her Majesty's Government, as a supporter of
his.—( Hear, hear, from Lord Brougham, and laughter.)
Therefore, if the Committee was unfair, it was for Noble
Lords opposite to have altered it, and as to its being 13 to
5, that was the fault of those who did not choose to attend
it. He now came to the evidence, which related more par-
ticularly to the subject to which the Bill on their Lordships'
table referred—the Ribbon Society. Ribbon con.
spiracy was undoubtedly not of recent origin in Ireland.
From what he had collected from the evidence it appeared
that ever since the Rebellion of 1798 a Society of that
kind had existed in Ireland. It had been called by some
of the witnesses a sort of defensive Society against
Orangeism, but he ( Lord Wharncliffe) thought it was
rather the other way. He thought Orangeism had arisen
as a defence against those Societies that existed in 1798.
In 1822, two persons, named Keeland and Brown, were
tried in Dublin for administering unlawful oaths, and in
the then Attorney-General's speech (the present Lord
Chancellor of Ireland) there was a description so exact
of those Societies, and of the conspiracy then existing, that
he would refer their Lordships to it. The Noble Lord
then read an extract from the address •f Lord Plunket,
when Attorney-General, to the jury, who spoke of the
prisoner's being in a low rank of society, and ended by
saying that although they were utterly incapable of• ren-
dering services to their country, yet they were undoubtedly
quite equal to the task of endangering the peace. He
( Lord W.) believed every one would agree that the Society
had existed for a considerable time, and the only
question, he believed, was, how far it had of late years
been increased. Upon this subject the Committee had
called several witnesses, and it was necessary their Lord-
ships should consider who those witnesses were, and what
their characters were. He must say that, with respect to
the witnesses on both sides, he had never seen brought be-
fore a Commitee men more intelligent and men more
willing to give information in a way satisfactory to those
who examined them. The witnesses brought forward by
his Noble Friend had not been picked out as persons at-
tached in any way to him or the party with whom he acted
in that House. On the contrary, they were universally
persons in the employment of Government, stipendiary
Magistrates, and persons high in the constabulary, and
of great experience, and living in those parts of the country
with respect to which they have given information. Be•
sides them the Commissioners of Police in Dublin had
been examined, and lastly, Mr. Drumond. All those per-
sons had agreed, more or less, in the existence
of that conspiracy and Society in Ireland.—
( Hear.) They all agreed the members of that Society
were bound together by oaths, and went on more or less
into the particulars of the subject. Some of them gave
exact information, taken on oath, and stated they had not
the least doubt there did exist a conspiracy, whatever the
objects of it were. Some of them thought their objects were
directed against the institutions of the country—but all
agreed that they were so organized that it would be very
easy for cunning and designing persons to convert them to
purposes most fatal to the peace and prosperity of the coun-
try.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to the evidence
of Mr. Rowan, and on which doubts had been thrown by
some parties, he (Lord Wharncliffe) must say it appeared
to him that nobody had a right to say that the substance of
his evidence was not true. Perhaps Mr. Rowan might be
of opinion that the objects of the Society were carried
further than others thought, but no person had a
right to say the facts he spoke to were not true.
Without taking Mr. Rowan's evidence, there was that of
Captain Despard, a stipendiary Magistrate, who was rather
an unwilling wjaness—not improperly so—but he hesitated
to give evidence without authority from the Government.
Lord HAT H E RTO N—Not unwilling.
Lord WH A RNC LIFFE—Not improperly so; he was
cautious.

Lord PLUNKET—Not so as to damage his evi
dence?

Lord WHARNCLIFFE—Not at all. He was
ready enough to give all the informption in his power,
but not without some communication with the Govern-
ment. His evidence went to show that there was among
the Roman Catholic peasantry the anticipation of a gene •
ral rising, when those who were engaged in this conspiracy
were sworn to upset the Constitution and massacre the
Protestants. He stated that when a man was to be shot,
one or more persons were collected for the purpose from a
distance, who were compelled to perform the deed under
the fear of forfeiting their own lives. If they thought he
deserved only a beating, persons were brought perhaps from
twenty miles off, who knew not the party, nor any thing
of the affair, and they executed the assault. He
further stated that nothing was more extraordinary than
the rapidity with which communication of intelligence was
effected among these persons—that one man would bring
news, for instance, from Dublin, and transmit it to another
town, from which it would in the same way be sent on to all
the other places in the line, till it was spread all over the
country. He stated also that they had pass-words, which
were generally short sentences, sometimes in verse ; and
that they had what were called " quarrelling words"—
that is, words used to point out a person who was to be as-
sassinated or maltreated. Thus, when three persons had
come from a distance to execute the vengeance of the eun-
spirators—three persons not knowing the party who was
to be their victim—the party who did know him went up
to him in their presence, and said, " Don't be fond of
quarrelling"—to which all the others would say, "I am
not so disposed"—the person pointed out was marked—
they never lost sight of him, until an opportunity occurred
to beat or kill him. Captain Despard was not the only
person who had stated these things. He was cor-
roborated by many other persons, the general effect
of whose evidence was that the peasantry engaged in this
conspiracy, considered themselves bound to turn out at two
hours' notice. There was less certainty as to their
leadership. It was the general belief that there was some
Committee sitting in Dublin or Armagh, or Belfast, or
perhaps sometimes in one place and sometimes in another;
but this was involved in mystery. Major Browne, howe-
ver, the Commissioner of Police in Ireland, stated that
there could be no doubt that there were somewhere
persons directing their operations ; and persons who dis-
played in their management considerable skill and ability.
He had no doubt of the existence of such a society, quite
independent of the Dublin Trades' Society. He differed
from Mr. Rowan in some respects, as to the objects of
the Society ; but he believed in the existence of the pass
words—in the exclusiveness as to religion—in the readi-
ness to obey orders—to turn out at a short notice, and to
disturb the peace of the country if they found a leader.
The passports were changed every three months—they
were given out at the parish meetings from the
baronial delegates, who had them from the provin-
cial delegates—who received them from the Committee,
sitting in Dublin, or Armagh, or wherever it was. There
had been instances in which the pass-words had been disco-
vered, but they had instantly been changed, and others
substituted.—( Hear.) It was a curious thing that these
Societies pervaded the middle of Ireland—the counties of
Meath, Westmeath, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Queen's
County, King's County, Dublin, and the North generally
—they did not prevail to the same degree in the South ;
and what was more extraordinary, they did not prevail in
Tipperary, where the greatest number of outrages took
place. It was naturally asked what was the reason of this ?
And the answer given by some of the witnesses was, that
where the population was generally or universally Catholic
they did not think these Societies necessary ; but in the
North, where Protestants abounded, there the object of this
conspiracy was most important ; for be it observed that
these Societies were exclusively Catholic. Now as to their
connection with outrages. There could be no doubt that
a great part of the outrages, the assaults and murders, arose
from contentions respecting land—most frequently against
tenants who took land from which these parties had been
ejected, who received notices, and if these were disregarded,
were quickly waylaid, and either beaten or murdered by per.
sons sent from different parts of the country. And the diffi-
, culty of finding evidence was such, that notwithstanding the
pains taken by the Government (and which he was willing to
peknowledge) the greater number of these crimes were
undetected, and their perpetrators went unpunished.
( Hear, bear.) It had certainly by some persons been
denied that these crimes were generally committed by
strangers, but on this point the evidence of the Magistrates

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, AUGUST 9, 1839.

was conclusive, and much more to be relied on.—( Hear,
hear.) The difficulty in getting evidence arose from this,
that witnesses were always in fear of their lives. And,
moreover, one of the articles in the confederacy was, that
the conspirators should be willing to perjure themselves to
any extent to save their fellows. Considering this, could
it be wondered at that there were few convictions—and
should the small number of the convictions be made an ar-
gument against the existence of the conspiracy.—( Hear.)
It could not be doubted that these persons were prepared to
rise at a very short notice, and that they believed, when once
the rising took place, they would have no difficulty in find-
ing leaders. On this subject he would observe, it was
often said by some person, that they could raise 500,000
men in a short time ; he did not know whether they had a
notion that they should find these 500,000 men by the
means of these Societies, but they could have no better
means for attaining their object.—( Hear, hear.) And lie
could not help thinking that if they knew of the existence
of such Societies, they were well aware that they furnished
them with the means of making good their threats.—
( Hear, hear.) Mr. Drummond had, indeed, said that he
doubted the bad tendency of these Societies, because they
were generally held at the houses of publicans, from which
he concluded that the object was to draw custom to these
theret
e
t
do,a,hhfi
nvrotaedeicu houses.dneegsuhhwaa years,o: a
snuto alh idtsne oodr
mastersar:
aoneoeatvduhfcessi
ecthmetgohseuaos was
gone
expenditure,aotef
lsscuoohpl
tdntdvauhges charge
oger
lteosei
okahon ecnbef
gposaust,nnitpmxedaaoeplenyei
fteevdithtnnetii
sixpence
ttehgeitei
that
money
respsgpotser
nenueoonbedopeylo I rifcneeoarayrl
observedeenl
ocaytsfueewiihwtl
votlloeherei took
r
t
e
s
they had some idea of deriving something in exchange.
Doubtless there were persons in Ireland who received
rent from the people, but then that was in re-
turn for some supposed services they rendered, and
therefore from this circumstance he did not derive any
argument against the existence of the conspiracy. Mr.
Drummond did not deny the existence of the confederacy,
but he doubled the objects for which it was formed ; he
talked of it as a rude organization—called the pass-words
clumsy—spoke contemptuously of its power, so far as re-
garded the upsetting the Constitution of the country.
But he insisted greatly on the character of the in.
formers, as being very suspicious ; and urged that
they were generally in want of money ; and
often accomplices and all these circumstances certainly
threw discredit on their. testimony. But let it be recol-
lected that the same thing was said in all conspiracies, and
in 99 cases out of 100, respectable persons could not be
got to prove such conspiracies.—( Hear, bear.) The bad
character of an informer might be sufficient ground
for refusing capitally to convict a man on his evi-
dence, but it did not seem to him sufficient to
disprove the existence of a conspiracy. Another
ground upon which Mr. Drummond doubted this con-
spiracy was the efforts which, lie said, were made
by the Roman Catholic Priests, and by a person who e'er-
cited great influence in Ireland, to discourage it. Now
there was in the evidence what might be true or otherwise,
but there was a feeling on the part of the peasantry, that
though the priests might seem to decry the conspiracy,
there was a lurking feeling in their minds in favour it, and
that they made use of their authority in connection with it.
He (Lord Wharncliffe) did not know if the evidence was
quite sufficient to convince him of the fact, but still there
was something in it. He would not trouble their Lord-
ships at greater length on the evidence. The result upon
his own mind was, that there existed in Ireland a conspira-
cy whose objects certainly were directed to agrarian pur-
poses, such as deterring persons from taking land, &c. ; but
that as respected the overturning the Constitution and sub-
stituting the Catholic for the Protestant religion, there
was not evidence sufficient to satisfy him of its existence,
though he believed there were many persons who were ready
to direct their efforts to such objects.—( Hear, hear.) No
man could read the evidence and not come to the conclu-
sion that the gentlemen of Ireland were surrounded by a
conspiracy which took from the power of acting in a manner
benefit al to the country. He believed the country gen-
tlemen of Ireland to be fully awake to the duties which
were imposed upon them, and to be desirous of improving
their estates and making their tenants comfortable, and
that it was a calumny to say that they made use of their
powers generally for any other purposes.—( Hear, hear.)
With regard to the charges brought against the gentle-
men of Tipperar,y, he would refer to the evidence of the
Crown_ Solicitor and of the Stipendiary Magistrates, to
place wholesale
not
to e je
get zt m
rt s .
of
prove that it was unjust to charge them with having made
id
esctthmeeonny tsi
means of
had taken
getting arrears of rent; and most of those who had been
ejected in Tipperary were parsons of such a description that
no landlord having any regard to his property could possi-
tMheany of
tenants,t hebseut eaj
possi-
bly suffer them to remain. These gentlemen had been
reminded, in reply to a memorial, that property had its du.
ties us well as its rights. It might have been some excuse,
had such been the opinion of the Government, had they
communicated this privately to these gentlemen ; but.he
considered it highly imprudent to communicate this
censure in a public letter, as was done by Mr. Drummond,
and a circumstance calculated to excite the tenants against
the
.landlords of the country. Upon the evidence, it was
proved that they were in general desirous of improving
their estates,and of doing their dutAas country gentlemen.
With regard to the present state of Ireland, he was happy
to say that he was of opinion that a better state of moral
feeling was existing than had existed some years ago,
%%hie's he hoped would produce its effect on the lower
classes. But there were influences at work to counteract
this. Their Lordships would find from the evidence,
that outrages always followed political agitation.
For instance, after contested elections, the people

.
ere never allowed to rest by those who made a
profit of this agitation. In a country where the labour
market was overstocked, and the wages of labour conse•
quently lower ; they were taught that their superiors were
enemies, and: they were held up to their abhorrence as
bloody Tories and bloody Sassenachs.—( Hear, hear.)
Nay, individuals were frequently pointed out in this manner,
and nothing tended so to keep up this agitation as an idea
that there was a leaning on the part of Government to the
persons thus engaged. He hoped that this took place un-
der the assurance that by so doing they were treating both
parties with impartiality. He could not but think, from
statew h at
oh had f e m
o r al
fsee
oelni h
egoGentwoevotdeho,rainwdt
mhaCei
tl
neo
tlm,et
obmh
gyei
ttshtchehaoe
trw,
hi
hi
otnghl
gi acf
forth
hr
wtathaht
sit
its
arebefepar ttorteoiedt r:
taensdt hean t
wasthou
notgh t
suspected,
mwith confidence,cheemmel
Marquis
rgof uihs
his
smf
Noble
ohobt
lßeFriend's
m causeANa Bm yu
acdwhdo
rbueelsdtst
,en
and
nts
dt
have
aft
for
re oftthr
troubled'
uthingscbol
en
d- ,
to exist in Ireland than existed at present.—( Cheers.)
their Lordships had it not been for a word at the com-
mencement
eluding sentences of it. As there were near him
other Noble Friends who had attended the Committee,
and who were much better able to address their Lordships
on the evidence than he could possibly be, as having
had his attention directed to a totally different part of
the subject, it had been quite as much as he could do to study
the evidence or, that point, without disregarding the other
duties which devolved upon him ; and here he could not
help observing, and he hoped the country would be made
aware of it, en the unpromising state of the House for
such a discussion, contrasted with the appearance it pre-
sented the other night, when their Lordships came down
prepared to vote on this subject.—( Hear, bear, hear.)
On looking at the other side of the House he observed the
benches were occupied almost exclusively by the members
of the Committee.—( Cheers.) His Noble Friend had
commenced his speech by representing this Bill as having
been occasioned by the appointment of the Committee.
All he could say
was, that as far back as the month of
December last the attention of the Government had been
called to this subject, and the heads of a Bill had been
under the consideration of Mr. Grady, the Attorney-Ge-
neral, who had stated it was a very difficult subject to deal
with, without introducing provisions which on other accounts
would be objectionable; but when he left Ireland the
Attorney. General had overcome these difficulties; and the
first time the present Solicitor-General had addressed the
House of Commons, he had stated his intention of intro-
ducing such a Bill. The Noble Lord, why, he knew not,
had taken great credit to himself for the narrow majority
by which the Committee had been carried, and had also
alluded to the composition of the Committee as originally
proposed by the Noble Earl; but it should be recollected
teat as members of that Committee the Noble Earl had
proposed five Members of the Government, whose official
avocations must necessarily have prevented them from
attending, even if they bad not objected to it on the
grounds stated in the debate.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With
regard to himself, the Noble Lord had stated that he
could not see why he (the Marquis of Normanby) should
not have attended, but the Noble Lord_ should recollect
that at the time the Noble Earl did him the justice to state
that he thought he had acted very properly in withdrawing
from the Committee. With respect to this Ribbon Sj-
ciety, he would call the attention of the House to the
information which Mr. Rowan had forwarded to the Govern-
ment last year, and which he had, he understood, repeated
in substance before the Committee. It was rather sin-
gular that the Noble Lord had never alluded to this gen.
tleman as evidence; he had, in fact, thrown overboard his
principal witness.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. Rowan had
been described by one of the witnesses as a most credulous
gentleman, and he thought the event proved that such a
description was correct. He would take this opportunity
of observing that his Noble Friend and himself differed
but little in their views with regard to this conspiracy;
his Noble Friend had stated that a conspiracy existed for
the purpose of perpetrating agrarian outrages. Now
there was a much greater difference between his Noble
tehydFdai
differed
eveieteln:slecaodeop,belfj:direamoelliti:iso l
tfim, were similar
Friend and the Noble Earl. The Noble Earl had de-
scribed it as a conspiracy directed against all who would
not join and support it ; that it existed in all parts of the
country; that the poor farmers who rNefoubsleed
Ltoojr(d)inwihtowhearde
always
those of the Precursor Society—separation from England,
and the substitution of theCathhoelic for the Protestant
religion. He would appeal tot
its victims, and
just sat down if anything of this sort had been proved
before the Committee. The Noble Earl had stated that he
stated that he
(the Marquis of Normanby) had never believed in such a
conspiracy, but be bad did not deny the
existence of such a conspiracy, but he did not believe it
had any political object. He had stated this in his place
n 1837, and had further added that he had not seen any
secret oaths; and that though he did not believe in the
existence of the conspiracy to the extent represented, yet
if information was laid before him it would be found that
there was no man in the world more determined to put it
down, and he would appeal to the acts of the Governa.ent
for the truth of that statement. He had also stated that
the Government had not overlooked any facts, but that
they had not been enabled to procure any evidence so as
to secure a conviction ; and he would appeal to the Com-
mittee whether both these facts had not been borne out by
the evidence. He bad also stated that he did not believe
s that the Ribbon
Ribbonism existed to the extent which it did in 1831 ; and
1831 than it was
he had heard nothing of the Ribbon
that these Societies did not bear a political
had admitted
Noble Earl.
Society, but in 1838 ho had received from Mr. Rowan, of
whom he had heard nothing Provieusly, a communication
conspiracyeaCl it aa
pr
ar faince ts ee rn , Des
a. ewng adP sa
i r His
n ' morethi Noble
ot
his
fullyi
belse
During the year 1836
stating that he had received information fry.... a --- • - .
al!, inaivid u
who was desirous hi: name should not be
mentioned. One
word with regard to these informers—what he complained

and was capable of effecting its object any moment the conspir-
ators fixed one Her Majesty's Ministers ought to think well,
having in view allegiance to their Sovereign, before they made
light of these circumstances.—( Hear hear. )
Lord LURGAN felt that he should be shrinking from the
discharge of his public duty if he did not make a few observa-
tions • on the present occasion. He had recently left
toI find
relaed,nothing had
immersedad surprised
in this
him more andtl ie i r Lordships
of Irish Government and -- of • Irish confederacy. Not
thatie was ignorant their Lieedships- were so employed, but
what he:wished to empress on them was, that he had, about two
months ago, left Ireland, -and that Armagh, which they had
-been told was the head-quarter of thet mysterious society—and
*he spoke advisedly—he left Armagh, and he left Ireland gene-
rally, tranquil, prosperous, and improving in almost every re-
spect in which the moral improvement of a country can be re-
garded. Then coming into this country as rapidly as the tra-
veller was now borne from one part to another, he was
scarcely thirty-six hours out of Ireland, and scarcely in this
metropolis, beferc he was called upon to renounce all his
opinions and settled convictions as so many idle
dreams and fancies without any reality ; for he
found that whilst he had been fo;tering these idle delusions,
their Lordships were almost at their wits' end with respect to
the Sister Island, and were employed in an investigation with
respect to that amount of crime and outrage which their Lord-
ships said had rendered life and property insecure in that portion
of the empire.—( Hear, hear. ) This to him, as an Irishman,
was very perplexing and embarrassing. He was free to admit
this was a most important discussior. The statements that had
been made by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Wharncliffe)
were very startling, but to him they were not unexpected, be-
cause he had had the honour of serving on the Committee, and
it had appeared to him that without some such proceedings as
Noble Lords opposite had adopted, the finale on this question
would have been little in keeping with the opening and
wish the progress of the whole of this Irish discussion.
What was the opening ? Why, that such an amount of crime
and outrage had prevailed in Ireland, as rendered life and pro-
perty insecure in that country since the year 1835. Up to that
year Nuble Lords opposite would have it supposed that Ireland
had been a sort of blissful Eden, where man's disobedience had
never been heard of, and the fruit of the forbidden tree had re-
mained untouched.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) But Noble
Lords had contrived at the close to bring up something very
highly seasoned, and they now called on their Lordships to be-
lieve that Ireland, or at least a very great portion of Ireland,
was bound together by illegal oaths, and signs, and pass words ;
and were ready to turn out at a moment's notice to do anything,
no matter what.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Levi Lurgon) might
endeavour to weaken the Noble Lord's (Wharneliffe's) speech,
by setting one part of it against the other, beeause that Noble
Lord had stated, and had stated most correctly, that it was a
great comfort to him to perceive, in his investigation, that
there was a considerable improvement throughout the
whole of Ireland, moral and intellectual.—( Hear, hear. )
There was hardly any country in Europe more rapidly advanc-
ing than Ireland—none more likely to repay the care and anxiety
of its Leei slature. This he would maintain as the truth
against all comers..—(Hear, hear.) If that, then, were the
truth—if it were true that the internal trade of Ireland and her
foreign commerce were increasing—that her capital was aug-
menting—that the moral feeling of he r,ieople was improving.—
if, above all, the Emancipation Act were working out its re-
sults in a better spirit, a milder temper, beginning to diffuse
itself through Ireland—if party spirit were subsiding—these
were undoubtful proofs and characteristics of an improving
country—( Hear, hear)—characteristics which could not co-
exist with the universal rebellion and crime which were repre-
sented to pervade Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) To believe that
they could would be to dishonour the first law of nature, that
the tree is known by its fruits, and therefore he felt
warranted in asserting that Ireland was rapidly advancing and
improving.—( Hear, hear.) Up to this time he had rather
been speaking as a witness himself than commenting on the
evidence which was before their Lordships. But if he were to
speak from these books—if he were to_ see by others' eyes, and
to hear with others' ears, and speak according as this inquiry
gave him utterance—he must admit that before a Committee,
as impartial in its operations as it was possible to imagine, and
under the presidence of as honest an Englishman as ever pre-
sided over any Committee—he was bound to admit that before
this Committee so discharging its duties—whatever h. might
think of its first constitution—it was true that by the most
respectable witnesses—and he had heard with pleasure the
testimony which had been borne to the intelligence and inte-
grity of those witnesses—( Hear)—he must admit that crimes
and outrages of a fearful sort, and conspiracies, very alarming
conspiracies, did pervade and disfigure a large portion of her
Majesty's dominions in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. ) Now, if he
did regret anything in connection with that Committee it was
that, having pushed their inquiries to the greatest extent—into
the root of the disturbances in Ireland—they had made no re-
port as to the proper remedies to be appliod ; the Nuble Duke
had supported the motion for the Committee, on the ground
that he was disposed to think there might be something in the
jurisprudence of Ireland, in the administration of justice, which
required some remedies ; excellent reason too, in his (Lord
Lurgan's) opinion; but the Committee had' turned up
every kind of outrage, disgusting and atrocious; but
no remedy had been applied, reminding one of
what had hnmourously enough been put over an apothe-
cery's shop,—" vendita Itic,emeticum,narcoticum,et omnicum,
precter remedium."—(Loud laughter.) Many persons seemed
disposed to consider this an exclusively Irish debate; but, in
fact, it was no such thing, for those who had gone through the
vast expanse of these volumes, would find that not only did this
conspiracy exist, it was said, in Ireland, but that it had been
found in Liverpool—( Hear )—in Birmingham and in Man-
chester—( Hear, hear)—and in Paisley —( Hear, hear.) Cer-
tainly if this conspiracy did exist in Ireland, there was no
difficulty in conceiving, with the bridge of Boats now established
between this country and Ireland, that it should find its way here.
But was it true that in the heart of Protestant England,not Char-
tism, but Ribbonism prevailed—even in Birmingham ; that the
staple trade of Manchester was likely to sink before the rival
trade of ribbons--nay, that even in the trading capital of Pro-
testant, Presbyterian Scotland, this conspiracy was rampant.
This did fill him with unfeigned astonishment, and with incre-
dulity. For aught he knew, if these confederacies were to be
found in the places he had mentioned, their Lordships might
at this moment be sitting within a circumvallation-line of rib-
bons, surrounded by that mysterious system, whose object, it
seemed, was to overthrow the Protestant religion—to sweep
away the Right Reverend Prelates from the Bench--and
to set up King Daniel O'Connell on that throne Which
was wont to present to their Lordships' eyes all that
was most interesting and beloved in these realms. He
could not but look at all this, however, as the most fabulous
romance ever known. It must come from no other quarter
than La Mancha; and by-the-bye it was rather singular that
Mr. Rowan came from La Mancha—not in Spain, certainly,
but in Weitmeath ; and the Noble Marquis, in defending that
gentleman's testimony, had taken up a more chivalrous enter-
prise than ever the Spanish hero of the windmill.—( Laughter. )
But what now were the proofs of this conspiracy ? For ''-by
their fruits ye shall know them." There was no proof at all of
a political conspiracy. There were no crimes analagous to
such a combination. There were no political crimes—no insur-
gent movements—no insurrectionary outrages. Sir R. Peel
himself, even in describing much more horrible crimes—murders
in the face of day—near chapels--before congregations—he had
expressly negatived any such combination. But where was the
head of this conspiracy ?—where was the commanding genius ?
—where the presiding traitor ? Could he ever be guessed at?
No. His name had not been breathed ; nor, so far as could be
proved, ever dreamt of. So that here was a complete natural
curiosity—a body of rebellion, with hands and arms, and nether
limbs, wanting nothing to give it power but the rebel head.—
( A laugh.) It had been observed as remarkable that the
meetings of these societies were generally held at public-
houses, and that the publicans often presided • yet, though
this Ribbon conspiracy was
said to include'
population from 16 to 60, n the whole
piece of evidence, tangible
and conclusive, had beer, discovered. The people of Ireland,
if they were traitnrs, were the most faithful depositories of
treason, the most careful keepers of a secret, whether sober or
drunk, for all these proceedings, it would seem, were steeped
in whiskey—( A laugh)—carried on as they were in their
public-houses. But he dismissed from his mind as romantic,
as fabulous ; he trampled under foot, as most calumnious to the
people of Ireland, the idea that they were a revolting or rebel-
lious nation ; he denied it altogether.—( Hear, hear.) He
believed that they were as sound at heart as any portion nt
the subjects of the British empire.—( Hear, hear.) But he
del not wish to undervalue the evidence which had been laid
before their Lordship's Committee. He denied the political,
the treasonable conspiracy, but no one could deny that these
societies—by different barbarous designatione—existed through-
, out Ireland—their objects being to control the management of
land and the employment of letiour, and carrying the
most fearful intimidation into the families of those who disputed
their tyrannical mandates.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
This no one could deny. Nor could it be denied that these
Societies were wetting much stronger now than at any former
period. Now, indeed, an agrarian combination must be in-
creasing from. That which was now going on in Ireland, as to the
management of landed property. Ireland was now in a
transition state of society. There ssere novel and ex-
tensive improvements going on. These improvements
necessarily tended to throw out of their possessions great
numbers of the poorer classes, who, severed fromctheir little
holdings of land, were unable perhaps to provide of,,po-
tatoes for their famishing children, and thus becorfigrunhap-
ily, too ready for Ribbonism, or any other -conspiracy.—
( Heer, hear.) It would not become him to bring any charge
against the gentry of Ireland. He believed that no countr
had a better and more liberal landed proprietary.—(Hear.))
But there were many Acts against sub-letting—enforcing clauses
in leases on the tenantry—against alienation,—increasing the
Parliamentary franchise, and so on—all against the people,—
nothing could be more probable, therefore, than that unlawful
combinations should now be more frequent than ever ; and unless
their Lordships adapted their legislation to this transitory state of
things, more crime and outrage would arise than had ever yet been
witnessed. As to the evidence, lie thought their Lordships
should in a great measure dismiss it from their minds. But if
they allowed such fears and panics as some endeavoured to ex-
cite, to influence their minds, to balance their decision, fare-
well, then, to reason, to candour, to justice—farewell to the
spirit from which would spring an appropriate and beneficial
Legislation ; for party feeling, though blind and deaf, was over-
powering in its influence, and irresistible in its power ; there-
fore he entreated their Lordships to be watchful and vigilant,
as to the effect which they gave to this evidence.—( Hear. )
The Duke of WELLINGTON would not have felt it ne-
cessary to take up their Lordships' time had he not been called
upon in the way he had been. He entirely approved of this
Bill, in fact no opposition had been made to it on any side of the
House, and he was quite satisfied with the discussion which had
taken place on this subject, when his Noble Friend had moved
for the appointment of the Committee. It seemed to be the opi-
nion of the Noble Baron who had just addressed their Lordships
that this Bill ought to be extended to England, or perhaps that
it ought rather to be applied to England than to Ireland. He
should have something to say to that part of the subject pre-
sently, but he would now address a few words to their Lord-
ships on the motion now before them. He had stated
at the commencement of the Session the reasons why he had
voted for the appointment of this Committee. The Noble
Baron was not in the House at the time that Committee had
been appointed; if he had lie would have recollected that for
several previous Sessions they had heard in the speech from_ the
Throne of the tranquillity of Ireland, and at last, after having
heard of several other outrages, they heard of the murder of
Lord Norbury. The Noble Baron had recently come over,.
from Ireland, and he said he heard nothing of any crimes or
outrages ; they at that time had been more unfortunate for they
had then just heard of that murder, the perpetrators of which
even yet remain undiscovered.—(Hear, hear.) He would
also notice that the fact of the existence of the Ribbon Society
had then for the first time been admitted in public, for although
it appeared the Government were previously aware of its ex-
istence, they had not publicly admitted the fact until just previous
to the time that his Noble Friend had moved for the appointment
of that Committee. Some curious facts relating to the existence
evidePste on different trials
of that conspiracy. had been mentioned, in the course of that
in
which proved that this
meted throughou_t the country. U
debate, facts which had come out i
in different parts of the country,
he had consideeed that the dent} omen
these circum-
stances
complain of the state 'of sectety in that country ;
asSt:oencaicteetr
reason
ason
einen of Ireland had
considee:ng the great difference of o i ionb!hat existed between
the Government and the public on
_thatn subject, ject, and considering
made—for it was impossible to
that although returns had been
obtain from those returns an
crime in that coubtry—cnoontidering
'exact statement of the state of
all these things, he had
sthhooutigidhtuoit edit,aep3CDpoi
ntedt unreasonable that a Committee
inquire to
ireland, and into the state of the a.dministration of justice. or:
those grounds he had voted for the appointment of thee Com-
mittee. He had not been 4 Member oe
th''. Committee,

of was not so much their want of character as their utter
uselessness. They would never state a fact—they would
run on very glibely while you were inclined to listen to
them, but when asked for a single corroborative circum-
stance they could not give it, and they refused to give
their evidence on oath in a Court of Justice. Mr.. Rowan
stated that this individual was quite unlettered, and that be
had obtained the information at different times, but that it
was not on oath ; and hensust say if the only object of any
'person had been to make money he could nut adopt a better
trade than the one taken up by this informer. It came out
from the evidence of Mr. Kemmis that Mr. Rowan
had incorporared the evidence of eight persons in this d'-
cement, which was represented as the information of an
unlettered person, which be had put into form, and he cer-
tainly had put it into form, for any thing more affectedly
written than this information, from an unlettered person,
he had never seen. Mr. Rowan, in page three of his ay.-
dence, proceeded to say he believed the object of the Rib-
bonmen was to dethrone the Queen, and make Daniel
O'Connell, Member for Dublin, King of Ireland.--
( Laughter and Hear, hear)—and put down the Protestant
religion—( Hear, hear)•—and establish the Priests and the
Catholic Church in its stead.—( Hear, hear.) Further,
that the Priests kept a list of the estates forfeited in the
time of Oliver Cromwell, with a view to VI& restoration
to the posterity of tho original possessors.—( Hear, hear.
Now, he ( Lord N.) would tell their Lordships that the
recent purchases of estates in Ireland had been made
chiefly by Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
He ( Lord Normanby) believed that, however, to be
the fact. The evidence of that gentleman further stated
that there were branches of the Society opened through a
considerable portion of the country, the Grand Lodge
being in Dublin, and that there were several other unlaw-
ful objects. Mr. Rowan on being asked by the Commit-
tee whether he believed all the information he had received,
said he believed it all, and especially he thought Mr.
O'Connell was now much more likely than before to be
crowned King of Ireland, as he was now backed by the
Duke of Leinster.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The Earl of RODEN—There is no such evidence.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—Oh, but there is
though. The Noble Marquis again read the evidence,
and referred such of their Lordships as had the slightest
doubt to the prieted Report. Mr. Rowan repeatedly sail
he had not the slightest reason to doubt the accuracy of
the information he had received at different times. He
further stated he had been told that there were as many
as 1,000 Ribbonmen in three or four parishes in the same
county, and that they went -out in bodies by night to drill,
about a hundred men in each battalion. He had been further
informed that the Ribbonmen had great hopes that in con-
sequence of tho Rebellion in Upper Canada, there would
be a war between the United States and Great Britain,
and that the rebellion never would be put down until Da-
niel O'Connell was crowned King of Ireland. He had,
however, never been able to get information of any
outrage or meeting before its commission. Mr. Poussett,
however, the Provost of Sligo, had stated that they bad
information of a murder five months before it was perpe-
trated. Now a very important correspondence had taken
place between Mr. Kemmis on the part of the Irish Govern-
ment, and Mr. Rowan. In reply to a series of pressing
letters from Mr. Kemmis, Mr. Rowan was obliged at last to
confess, that though he had received a great deal of general
information as to the existence of Ribbonism, he could
specify nothing nor substantiate anything; nor could he
even forward to Government depositions upon oath from
the parties from whom the information had been collected,
although those persons should be secured from all personal
danger, as they would not be called upon to prosecute.
Mr. Kemmis's last letter to Mr. Rowan, pressing for some
tangible evidence that the Government might go upon
was unanswered ; yet in the late examination before the
Committee, Mr. Rowan had made no reference to
this correspondence, merely alluding to a communication
he had had with the Government some five or six weeks
previously. He (Lord N.) admitted that there were Societies
in Ireland, bound by secret oaths, and for unlawful purposes,
but there was no proved connexion between them and
ribbonism. Mr. Rowan's delicacy before the Committee, in
begging not to be pressed to give his opinion as a Magistrate,
whether the Government had neglected to take any steps to
trace and prosecute Ribbonism, would imply that there was
something which he would conceal. But the fact:was, as the
correspondence between that gentleman and Mr. Kemmis
showed, there had been nothing furnished upon which the
Government could proceed. The Noble Earl, as a proof
of the existence of Ribbonism, had referred to the charge
of Judge Burton to the Jury of Tipperary. But the Learned
Judge had alluded to another Society, not Ribbonism : the
Noble Earl must therefore have confounded two things.
He was sorry to hear his Noble Friend throw out the observa-
tions he had done with respect to the Catholic Priests; because
from the observations he had made while in Ireland, he was con-
vinced they had done all in their power, and were determined to
persevere in their efforts, to put down Ribbon conspiracy and all
other species of crime in Ireland. Such being by the undisputed
points with respect to conspiracy, there were only two modes of
accounting for it, one was that persons of a low character, who
spent their time in public houses, wished by their acts to be
thought engines of great. events, or that there was ex-
isting in Ireland a conspiracy without parallel ; and as to
the Catholic Priests, they must be supposed as exerting their
influence to uphold a system which all the Prelates of that re-
ligion denounce. If the evidence of Mr. Rowan was to be
looked at in one point of view, it must be taken as a whole.
He would not now go further into the evidence ; it would be
improper for him to do so, because he thought their Lordships
were discussing a question, without fully understanding the
whole of it. Notwithstanding all that had been stated, he be-
lieved Ireland was in a much better state at the present mo-
ment, than it was formerly—there had been less outrage. It
was true that there had been more committals for minor
offences; but the greater ones had diminished.—( Hear, hear. )
All this was a symptom of an improving state of things.
He denied that the Government had done anything- but hold
the scale even between the two great parties In Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) He had not favoured the Catholics more than
he had done the Protestants, although the latter might think
so from the fact of the former having obtained a greater ascen,
dancy than they had formerly enjoyed. In exercising the pa-
tronage that had been conferred upon him during the time he
was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, he had never considered whe-
ther a man was a Catholic or a Protestant.—( Hear, hear.)
He thought the Noble Earl opposite, after the evidence
that had been adduced, was bound to withdraw one
charge that he had made as to the conduct of
the Government. • With reference to the detection and punish-
ment
of offences, if the Noble Earl still insisted that the Go-
vernment had suffered crime to go on, he would put it to any I
Noble Lord whether any evidence had been brought forward
to prove, that?—(Hear, hear.) He would fearlessly assert
that no Government had been more active or more zealous in
detecting offences than the present.—(Hear, hear.) What-
ever their Lordships might think, with one result he was satis-
fied. Their Lordships had pronounced an opinion upon his
conduct, but out of the Committee had arisen a better
feeling among the people of Ireland, because they
felt that the charge was made against them as well
as the Government.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted, in conchs.
sion, that in justice to himself, and in justice to Ireland, before
their Lordships took any further steps, they would read the
whole of the evidence, and by that he would be judged as to
the conduct he had pursued in Ireland, and whether that coun-
try was in the state during his Government to which the Noble
Lord had' referred —( Hear, hear. )
The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought the Noble Marquis
instead of applying himself to the statements of the Noble Lord
and reasoning upon them, had confined himself to a furious at-
tack upon Mr. Rowan. He had endeavoured to throw down
Mr. Rowan and set up Mr. Drummond. He thought the at-
tack that had been made was not justified by the evidence, and
as a proof of that he need only refer to letters that had been ad-
dreesed to Mr. Rowan, after a strongly contested election at
Youghall, from the two candidates, tendering him thanks
for the manner in which he-had-preserved the peace of the town.
One of thoseletters came from Mr. John O'Connell. Another
letter was from nine Deputy-Lieutenants and 46 Magistrates of
Meath, tendering him thanks also for his conduct there. if any
thing, therefore, was wanting to show that Mr. Rowan ought
not to be lightly spoken of. he thought those letters were cal-
culated to convey that impression. Mr. Rowan was a
most respectable man, and he was most respectably con-
nected. He was the brother of Mr. Rowan, who was at the
head of the Metropolitan Police. The Noble Marquis, in his
bitter commentary upon Mr. Rowan's evidence, did not state to
their Lordships, at the time he was winding up his testimony
relative to the county of Westmeath, that he was removed from
that county. He was not there in such a situation as to enable
him efficiently to perform his duty, and yet such was the tribute
he had received from the ex-Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
The Marquis of NORMANBY had made no such attack
against Mr. Rowan.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not exactly remember
the words used by the Noble Marquis, but he would submit to
their Lordships whether his manner did not convey a most
bitter sarcasm on Mr. Rowan.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Marquis wished to disparage his Noble Friend's description of
the Ribbon conspiracy. He was sorry to say that unfortunately
for the Noble Marquis his Government had shown great favour
to persons who were behind the scenes in bringing about the
worst effects in Ireland.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He
thought the Noble Marquis, instead of pursuing the course he
had ought to have done all in his power to mitigate the cha-
racter of the dreadful conspiracy that existed in Ireland. The
Noble Marquis had said the conspiracy was not political, and
Mr. Drummond had said it was not agrarian.—( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Marquis wished the people of England to believe
that the state of Ireland was such as he described. That the
conspiracy was political he need only refer to the evidence of
Ronan,'Jr. Capt. Despard, Mr. Wright, and others. Capt.
Despard stated that they sat in Committee on persons, and
doomed them to death. But Mr. Drummond had wished it
to be understood that this was merely a Society for men to
stand by one another at fairs. Why everybody knew
that a great many people were murdered in coming home
from fairs—(Hear, hear)—and that if a man was ob-
noxious, and had not a faction to cover his retreat, he was
sure in coming from a fair to meet with his fate.—( Hear, hear, )
The Noble Marquis (Normanby) had given great credit to the
sincerity of the wish of the Roman Catholic Priests to put
down this conspiracy. He (the Marquis of Westmeath) had
no doubt that many of their body (and he should be uncharita
able if he did not say so) regretted a state of things ao much
calculated to create misery and wretchedness, but he must say
there was no evidence—nothing but bare assertion—to justify
such a conclusion.
Lord PLUNKET—There is evidence of Roman Catholic
Priests having interfered—their names are mentioned.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH—In a few specific instances.
It was proved the influence of the Romaa Catholic Priests
was quite sufficient to break the ties of landlord and tenant
—they, not one of them, being possessed of the fee-simple
of an acre in the country, have influence enough to enable
them to return several Members to the House of Com-
mons ; and yet it was to be presumed that this conspiracy
went on in spite of their wishes and their desire to put it
down. He must say, he could not give credit to that
statement. He had read in the newspapers an account
of the execution of a man for the murder of O'Keefe,
who appeared to have gloried in his death. lie stated
that he could have saved his life if he had chosen,
but that he preferred death. Nqw every one must deplore
an instance of such misguided feeling, but that was an occasion
in which, Qf all others, a minister of religion ought to have at-
tempted to set the unhappy man right. The same newspaper
contained a statement of the execution of a Roman Catholic at
the same period, but in another place, for the murder of his
father, and he confessed his guilt. These two cases stood in
strong contrast with each other—in the one, the crime was poli-
tical, in the other it was not and their Lordships would draw
their (MI illfereTWO i 4 contrasting the conduct of the Roman
cathefic clergy in these two instances. One word as .to the
probability or non-probability of this conspiracy having
an efficient head ; when the Noble and Learned Lord
opposite (Lord Plunket) h
Was Attorney-General;
in the
ape •ch keen" alluded to had "distinctly
Stated that the eonspiracy
was such that it could
not have been """-
th• • .....nued by persons in the situation of life of.
persons who were then prosecuted. His (the Marquis ofWestmeath's) opinion was that the thing had been set agore,
t
n
by very able men, and he thought the cell
for any thing the most awful that EnglishniraeincQoYeirco efficientnceive,

EVENING EDITION.

but he was quite satisfied with the results which had
already been produced by the publication of the evi-
dence. In the first place it would make the country as well
as the Parliament acquainted with the real state of society in
Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear). That was one satisfaction
sa h'ch he derived from the publication of the evidence, but be-
sides that he had the satisfaction the other night of hearing.the
magnificent speech of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, and
of voting hr the five resolutions which he had prepared for
their Lordships' adoption.(Cheers.) He would say that that
speech would never be forgotten—(Cheers)—and it must pro-
duce its effect on the administration of justice in Ireland, and
whatever might be the effect of the resolutions for which be
had had the satisfaction of voting—and he doubted of that ef-
fect in consequence of what he had heard had been stated else-
where—he would say that he was convinced that ulti-
mately the principles recommended by the Noble and Learned
Lord in his speech, and asserted in his resolutions must prevail
in theadministration of justice in that country, as they did already
in this country. Another effect produced by the motion of his
Noble Friend, and one of the results of that Committee, was tirt
Bill they had now under their consideration, and he must say,
he hoped that Bill would be carried into execution, and pro 'nee
some effect in checking the disposition to Secret Societies in
Ii eland; but another effect which that Committee had pro-
duced was, the laying open to their Lordships and the world,
the real existence of these Secret Societies, and the dangers re-
sulting therefrom. He would not now go over the evidence,
he would not pretend to follow his Noble Friend, who had
been chairman of that Committee, through his statement, but he
must say, the result had been to produce a conviction on his
mind of the existence of this general conspiracy ; in his opinion
there was great danger to be apprehended from it, and he be_
lieved that it extended to most parts of Ireland, and this at a
moment when the Government had been so imprudent as to
reduce the peace establishment to a scale positively not equal
to the performance of peace duties. Their services were
wanted in all directions, and at the same time a Member of
Parliament, of great influence and power, was taking that op-
portunity of informing the Irish public that they were nine
millions of people, and that nine millions of people have only to
demand to be independent really to become so ; while he had
under his hand this very conspiracy, that was capable of carry-
ing into execution a plan for the disunion of that from the
other country, he would say that it was fortunate for the
British public, and for all those who wished to maintain the con-
nection between the two countries, that pubte attention had
been drawn to the existence of this conspiracy. This conspi-
racy was known to be foended on similar principles to the con-
spiracy of the United Irishmen, and other more extended con-
spiracies which exist throughout Europe ; and it appeared that
her Majesty's Ministers, as it now came out, had a knowledge
of this conspiracy at the very moment at which, in the speeches
from the Throne, they were putting into the mouth of the So-
vereign assurances of the tranquillity of Ireland, and were re-
ducing the military establishments in Ireland by sending
the troops to Canada at the very time they ought to
have augmented them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) These were
some of the advantages acquired by the appointment of that
Committee, and he confessed that he rejoiced that their Lord-
ships had appointed it, and thought his Noble Friend who had
bdnireess
appointing
Marquis. their
presided over it, and the Noble Lords who had served en it,
The Duke
a but
andoft
he
efo
ra i
were entitled to the gratitude of the country.—(Cheers. )
theay fRICHMONDeItt that
wa
observationsuf
the
fhtuhateruer
eNadoi
Lordshipshadd on e
or
oinfi twt ehei
which
werewould u n
fnatvuocuhrabl
e rather .
the havecaa
Never had a Committee acted more fairly than that Committee
majority of
cause, because
tere
was convinced the subject would always rec • ewe from their
Lordships the greatest consideration. The law required no
change, butt the law ought to be carried into execution.
He was surprised that Ireland was so tranquil as it was. He
knew in revenue prosecutions in the county of Sussex that if
the recognizances of those who refused to give evidence were
not estreated, it would ire impossible ever to obtain a convic-
tion. He deeply retseeetted being obliged to oppose the Govern-
ment ; but he felt it was his duty the other night to de so.
When men procured a pass word, and they were recog-
nised by it in a town a hundred miles off—and were
recognised in Liverpool or Birmingham by it, he thought
that was proof of the existence of conspiracy. He had,
until the appointment of the Committee entertained opinions
unfavourable to the landlords of Ireland, but he now believed
that they were desirous of doing every thing for the comfort of
their tenants, and the good of the country. He had no fear
from Ribbon conspiracies in this country, although he did
from other conspiracies, of the existence of which he believed the
Government was fully aware, and were anxious to guard against.
He thought they were bound tobelieve what Mr. Rowan had
stated upon his oath. He (the Noble Duke) believed that gen-
tleman to be a most respectable man, though he had not the slightest acquaintance with him. But if his Noble Friend be-
lieved him to be a too credulous person, why had he continued
him in his office of Stipendiary Magistrate? He therefore
trusted that his Noble Friend would explain, so that nothing
should go forth to the public calculated to injure the character
of that officer, whom he (the Noble Duke) really believed to
have spoken only what he believed to be the truth.--( Hear,
hear, hear.) He thought the witnesses generally had shown
considerable talent, and a desire to communicate the truth as
far as they could; and he must also state, the Government had
given all the information and all the facilit) in their power;
they had seemed most anxious that the Committee should know
every thing. Such was the importance of the evidence, that
the Committee felt they could not confine themselves to Re-
port, as was generally the case, without recommending some
legislative enactment. He trusted that the evidence would be
of the greatest use to the present Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.--
(Hear, hi'ar.) His Noble Friend was an Englishman, he was
experienced as an English Magistrate, and he was sure
that Lord Ebrington entered upon his office with a firm
determination to administer the law impartially and firmly—
so as to show the Irish people that it would be for their interest.
to adopt that orderly conduct which must make their condi-
tion better, while, if they violated the law, their punishment
must be certain. He had had some management of Irish sol-
diers, and he (the Noble Duke) knew that the best way to deal with them was to tell them what they were expected to
do, and to thank them when they had performed it well; but
to let them know that if they acted otherwise their punishment
would be certain, and the sooner the better.--( Hear, hear.)
He believed his Noble Friend now in Ireland would act upon
this system. He trusted there was ground for the hope that
Ireland would soon be prosperous ; but it was dreadful to re-
flect upon the frequency of murder in Ireland, and the total
absence of honour at taking away life which prevailed.—(Hear,
hear.) They had seen that an acting Magistrate, and the agent
of a landed proprietor who had in no way exceeded his duty,
(turd not venture to the next town, a. quarter of a mile, without
being armed, and would not even walk to the lodge of, his own
park without two armed policemen.—( Hear, hear.) As an
English country gentleman, he (the Noble Duke) felt it was
their duty to take seine steps to relieve Ireland-from this fearful
condition. They might as well live in New Zealand or in any
other savage country, as in such a state of society.--
(Hear, hear, hear.) He was actuated by no party fettling,
He went into the Committee determined toy act as a Juryman,
and he had done so. He had never opposed his Noble Friend
when he could support. him. He believed no one could charge
him with giving a factious vote.--( Hear, hear.) Having so
far trespassed on their Lordships, he would conclude by stating
he felt it his duty to the country to second the motion.
The Marquis of NORMANBY explained. All he had
to say respecting Mr. Rowan, against whose respectability he
had made no statement, was, that he had only commented upon
his evidence.—( Cheers.)
Lord HATHERTON said as he had taken an active part in
the Committee, he now felt it his duty to address their Lordships. ,
He felt great surprise at the tone of the Noble Duke, for he could
show that as respected outrage and erime, Ireland was now
tranquillity itself, when compared with any former period.—
(Laughter, and hear.) This he could prove from the testi-
mony of Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Goulburn, and Mr. Daly, from
the year 1814 up to the year 1830. He could easily explain
some discrepancies alluded to by the Noble Duke respecting
the difference between the number of crimes and the cases of
committal.—(-fleari hear). Mr. Cahil, of Tipperary,
had prepare an abstract, from which it appeared
that during the years 1836, 1837, 1838, in some instances
one man re-presented 30 criminals, and one person was set down
for the tame offence 42 times. In one of those years 869 per-
sons were charged with 5,412 crimes, and the average during
the three years was about the same. Having had the honour
to be Chief Secretary under two Lords Lieutenant, he had
taken great trouble to get up evidence for the Committee. it
was amusing to hear the replies of the witnesses as to what
Ribbonism meant. The witnesses would smile and •hesitate,
but they could give no positive answer. Major Warburton, a
most intelligent observer, stated he had the greatest possible
difficulty in finding out the nature of Ribbonism. Mr. Oen-
ket could give no exact information. Mr. Meckins, Colonel
ItPGregor, Capt. Vignolles, and several others all differed.
One thought the Ribbonists were like the Terry Alts ; another
thought they were like the White Feet; others the Black
Feet ; others the Day Boys ; some thought it was like a cog-
' bination of rustic trades. Mr. Drummond said he had scarcely
any definite information about Ribbonism. He believed,
however, it consisted exclusively of Roman Catholics.,
Then they differed as to its extent. Some believed
it extended not only through Ireland, but it also reached to
Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow. Yet it was most extra.
ordinary. They had, however, examined the Crown Solici-
tors from Ireland, and Mr. Hickman, whose circuit comprised
Leighlen—Mr. Barrington,
Galway, Roscommon, Sligo, and
whose circuit extended over Cork, Limerick, Kerry,Clerr
Mr. Kemmis, whose circuit was Tipperary, Waterford, k
circuit—Mr. ow-
low, Kilkenny—Mr. Scott, of the Home
personally
How-
ley, the Barrister, and others, all said that theyname
knew nothing of Ribbonism, and that a Society. under that
their could not exist in their respective districts without
the subject
know-
ledge. Their Lordships had heard a good. deal
__
• with whom Ribbon Societies originated. He of the parties
thought that evidence on that subject had been im-
perfectly stated : but no man could doubt, who had consi-
dered the evidence fully, with whom these originated.
Several of the vvitneses stated that the origin of these
Societies was drinking houses. Mr. Drummond had stated
that the promoters of Ribbonism were publicans who received
money but gave no account. The next matter to which he
wished to draw the attention of their Lordships was the orga-
nization to which these Societies had arrived, and here he felt
bound to remark that there was not a single gentleman who
had given evidence before the Committee, who had spoken
from anything but hearsay ; the evidence that they had, given
would not have been received in a court of law. The fact was,
blink it as they might, that money, and money alone, was the
object of these Societies. Theo came the question whether
these Societies were
who stgoverneated that d bhe a central head. According
(Ito Mr. Rowan,gave his testimony from in-
formation on which he could rely, Dublin was the
seat of the
chief Ribbon Board. Another witness stated that Armagh was,
and Captain Des lard said there was a central board, but he
did not know where it was. Colonel Shaw Kennedy said he
could not trace such a thing as a Central Society, and Colonel
M' Gregor stated the same thing. Mr. O'Ferrall said he did
not think they had any general head, or any central object.
Major Warburton said they were kept in a slate of or-
ganization; and others said the
were kept in authority,
but could net tell the head. they
he inference, therefore, „
was, that there was no central head. Then as to the source
from whence the information • • The
testimony on Ribbonism was deriv ed.
testimony on this point was
without exception. Mr. Maxwell
Hamilton said his • •
information was received from approvers;
Mr. Rowan said his informants with but few exceptions, were
distressed and unfortunate. He (Lord Hatherton) meant to
say nothing against Mr. Rowan's moral character, but he be.
lieved him to be credulous on these things, and a person who
would believe things that others would not. Their Lordships
could not but remember, that this Committee had been ap-
pointed upon the ground that the Government had taken no
steps to put an end to Ribbonism in Ireland. Now, what had
Mr. Drummond stated before that Committee ? Why, he
came before it with a vast quantity of documents under his arm,
and stated, that if their Lordships supposed that the present
Government had not done all in their power to put
down Ribbonism, he had evidence to prove that ne,
exertion had been wanting on their part r
to b
about so desirable a result. If such wasthe.
nt went
what necessity, he would ask, was there for the appoint
•
of the Committee ?—( Hear, hear.) 'Thef only remaintrgepeiee,
in the evidence he would read from 1% r. rummon own
words. The Noble and Learned Lord here read p art of the
evidence of Mr. Drummond, and also extracts front speeches
of Sir Robert Peel in 1814 ' and 1816. "am which
it appeared that the state of , Irela-Ad was far
worse at that period than at thepresent time.
His Noble Friend, during the four years of his administratione
hail had the good fortune and the wisdom - introduce
many
ameliorations, and that administration would be remembered
h"
haihe people
that of Ireland with the most grateful feelings. He
d no doubt Noble Friend, Lord Ebrirecgton, would,
pursue the same course, and he was confident thtarthe admir-
able sound sense that distinguished Lord Ebringt.on's character