The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-10 00:00:00

COURT OF CHANCERY.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY moved that various returns
which had been presented relating to the Court of Chan-
cery, be presented. The Hon. Member said it appeared
from those returns, that there were at the present moment
ten thousand causes and matters pending in the Courts of
Chancery, and money in consequence locked up to within
a portion of forty millions sterling.—( Hear, bear.)—The
House, perhaps, might suppose that no cause found its way
into that Court, except it was one of importance.
Such, however, was not the fact, as it was shown more
than eight hundred of the suits now undecided did not re-
late to property amounting to 2001.—(Hear, hear.)—He
hoped Hon. Members would give their attention to the
subject.
PORTUGAL.

Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that on Thursday,
the 18th inst., he should submit a motion to the House
on the affairs of Portugal.
• BURNING OF MINDOO WIDOWS.

Mr. BANKES moved for a Return of the number of
Widows who had sacrificed themselves on the funeral pile
of their husbands since the last Return on this subject.—
Ordered.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from seve-
ral plrishes in the county of Kent, setting forth the dis-
tresses or the country, and praying for a reduction of tax-
ation. The Hon. Member then presented several other
petitions of a similar nature from different parishes in
the same county.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.

Mr. HUME moved for a return of the number of per-
sons confined in the various prisons of the metropolis dui ing
the year 1629, distinguishing those who are confined
on mesne process, and those ce'ifined on judgment, with
the amount of the various sums for which they were
imprisoned. The Hon, Member said the system of im-
prisonment for debt was at once ruinous and demoraliz-
ing. The Attorney-General was sensible of the mischief
it entailed, and when it suited his purpose no one was
more eloquent on the liberty of the subject. He
would not now go into particulars, but ask the
Right Hon. Secretary whether it was the intention of his
Majesty's Ministers to bring in any Bill to regulate the
present practice respecting rnesne process—and also the
practice respecting the Court of Requests. There had
been, as undoubtedly was well known, several instances
where persons had been in prison 20 days, and when the
original debt was not more than Is. 6d.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the Hon. Member most be
aware that two years since a Bill was brought in to prohibit
any arrest under twenty pounds. Now, even that Bill
had been in some cases attended with injurious effects, a fact
which convinced him of the necessity of looking into the
whole subject, before making any alteration in part of it. He
however could inform the House that he had called the
attention of the Law Commissioners to the subject of
imprisonment for debt ; and as they had now made some
progress in their inquiries, he hoped they would soon make
it convenient to pay that attention to it which it merited.
He thought, if the sum was raised to 301. 401. or 50/.,
still the evil might be aggravated, unless the whole sub-
ject was well considered. Mr. Harvey was not satisfied
with that answer. The Law Commission, like many
others, might last 30 years, the subject was of that
importance, it demanded immediate attention.
After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. PEtL,
Mr. O'Costxr.LL, and Mr. Hume, took a part, the re-
turns were ordered.

Mr. HUME moved for returns of the number of per-
eons imprisoned by the Commissioners of the Court of
Requests.—Ordered.
The Hon. Member then moved for similar returns re-
lating to Ireland.
Mr. WODEHOUSE moved, that nn bumble address
be presented to his Majesty, that he would be pleased to
order certain documents to be laid before the House, which
document, had been given in evidence before a Committee
of this House, on the 26th of April, 1826, touching the
advantage of adopting a silver standard of currency. He
wished to consult the evidence of Alexander Baring, E,q.
on that subject, and wished also to know if his Honourable
Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would object to
granting it?
The CHANCELLOR of ti,e EXCHEQUER replied,
that he had no objection to furnish the document which he
had read, provided that he might be allowed to reserve the
point of submitting the whole of the evidence together.
Mr. DAWSON brought up certain papers relative to
the revenue of Great Britain and Ireland.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR mai•ed for various returns re-
lating to the Court of Chancery, and said the evils exist-
ing in that Court were of so grievous a character, that
he would never rest satisfied until he had obtained a remedy.
FREE TRADE TO INDIA.
'

Mr. Secretary PEEL rose and said, Mr. Speaker, Sir,
his Majesty's Government have thought it to be their duty
to avail themselves of the very earliest opportunity
of redeeming that pledge which they gave at the
close of the last Session of Parliament, that early after the
commencement of the present session they would
propose a committee of inquiry for the purpose
of investigating the state of the commerce between
this country and our Indian possessions. And, Sir, if in
proposing that Committee, my statement should, so far as
the length of it is concerned, appear disproportionate to
the vast importance of the subject, and if I should
forbear from entering, on the present occasion, into those
manifold and most important details which connect them-
selves with the consideration cf it ; it is not, Sir, I assure
you, from any indifference or insensibility on my
part to the paramount importance of this subject, but it is
from a recollection of, and a reflection upon, the position
in which I stand to-night, and of the duties which the
undertaking of the night devolves upon me. It is no
part of my duty on the present occasion to submit to this
House the consideration of my plan for the future govern-
ment of India, it is no part of my duty to state the opinions
of his Majesty's Government with respect to the renewal of
the present privileges possessed by the East India Company,
or of any modifications of those privileges—any duty to-
night is confined to the proposal of referring the affairs
of India ; to the dispassionate consideration of a Com-
mittee, so as to bring forward a collection of opinions
and facts which shall form the elements of future conside-
ration—the grounds of future question, and a question in-
volving more important and complicated circumstances and
imposing higher obligations, I must say of moral duty,
than any other question which, within the sphere and range
of public affairs can now be submitted to the consideration
of the Legislature. Sir, I have another motive for avoiding,
as far as I can, the discussion and consideraion of that
question. to-night, because it is certainly no part of
my object at the present time to provoke a length-
ened discussion, and the clashing of opinions and statements
on the Indian affairs, because I doubt whether we shall not
better finish that deliberate investigation, which is suited so
well to the importance, and I may say, to the dignity of
this House, if such a conflict and collision of opinions
can in the first instance be avoided.—(Loud cheers.)—
Sir, I shall propose one Committee for the purpose of ex-
amining that great mass of documentary evidence which is
ready to be submitted to its consideration, and of institut-
ing that personal examination of witnesses conversant cviat
the fact, and qualified by local information and experience
to give opinions worthy of our inquiry. I propose one
Committee rather than two or three Committees, because
I doubt whether the subjects are not so intimately con -
fleeted together, that the evidence submitted to this
House, prepared under the superintendence of one Coiumit.
tee will not have more of simplicity and of uniformity.

it than if two or three Committees were sitting,—one for
instance on the financial concerns of the country—another
on the trade with India, and another on the trade with
China. The subjects therefore are so intimately connected,
that I fear confusion would arise if the suggestion which
fell from the Hon. Gent. opposite (the Member for Calling-
ton) and from whom' every suggestion that falls is deserving
of the highest consideration, should be attended to. I
fear that his suggestion thrown out in the course of
last Session, that two or three Committees should be
appointed, would create great confusion ; and that in
travelling over the same ground, and, in addressing our
attention to the result of the inquiries of those two or
three Commitees, we should rather be bewildering our-
selves than coming to any sound and satisfactory conclusion.
Sir, I propose this Committee with a view of instituting a
full and unreserved investigation into the state of the affairs
of the East Indies. Every document connected with the
financial and commercial affairs of that country shall be
laid without reserve before that Committee.—(Hear,
hear.)—l propose that Committee, not for the purpose
of ratifying any engagement previously entered into between
this Government and theEtst Indies—no such engagement,
open or concealed—expressed or implied, exists—(Loud
cheering)—because we are perfectly free agents on this
side of the water.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear, hear.)
—I do not propose this Committee either for the
purpose of sanctioning and confirming any previously
farmed determination on the part of Governmeat, no such
determination exists, but the respect due to the financial
and commercial affairs of the country shall be liable to be
revise:l, according to the result of the investigation of
that Committee of Inquiry. But, Sir, having intimated
that no such engagement exists between this Government
and India, and that no such irrevocable determination on
the part of the Government has been formed, I feel my-
self entitled, on that very ground, to impress upon the
House the extreme importance of this inquiry, and to
implore and beseech Hon. Members to consider that it
must have other objects in view, than to determine merely
in what manner British commerce can be extended and
carried on—that there are other considerations connected
with it of much greater importance than even the exten-
sion of Eritish commerce. That you are at present to
consider the political character of the country, to consider
the vast trusts which have been administered by the
Governors of immense regions possessed of large suing, and
administering a revenue greater than that of most other
countries. We shall then be boend when we
approach this subject, a most comprehensire sub-
ject, we shall be hound to consider the various modes
and degrees in which it affects the finances of this country—
in which it affects the Constitution of this country—
in which it affects the influence of the Crown,
as well as various other considerations of the
very utmost importance. Sir, I feel it right also to state,
at this early period, from the information which has been
given to me, that in speaking of the Company in their
political character, any investigaticin must reflect credit
upon this Company. I do think they have been animated
by a sincere desire to conduce to the general welfare of
those who have been left to their management ; and in
comparing the Government of the East Indies with any
other form of Colonial Government that ever ex-
isted, I think the result of the administration of
the powers committed to them by the Sovereign of this
country must redound to their honour and credit. Above
all, Sir, let us always bear in mind that in the course of
this transaction we are treating with the interests, and
the feelings of an immense people. Let us then
avoid rash experiments; and when we think, a priori,
that some better system of Government might have been
devised, let us think that this form of government over
almost countless millions of people has existed
nearly fifty years ; and though not prepared
to say there might not be another form of government more
suitable to the administration of that country devised, yet I
say there has resulted so much sound practical good from that
administration, as to induce us to take care how we make rash
experiments upon the Government of India. Of course this
inquiry must extend into,the financial state of the East Indies.
We must compare the amount of the revenue at present
received, with the amount of the revenue at former periods.
We must compare—we must estimate the prospect of our
improvement with the amount of civil charges, the pros-
pect of making the gross revenue received by the East
India Company equivalent to the charges to be made
upon us. Sir, with respect to the commercial con-
cerns of the East Indies, the documents which shall
be presented to the Committee contain much impor-
tant information. Upon this subject I shall abstain from
giving any opinion, but I can say that those returns will
convince any man that too sanguine expectations from
opening a free trade ought not to be entertained—that the
expectations of a faventrable result ought not be too
sanguine, however there will be the means of judging
what are the regulations ender which the China trade
is at present conducted—what is the effect of a
free admission under different circumstances of merchants
to that part—upon all these circumstances, the
price of the articles which can be brought from
thence—the price of tea from all the other dif-
ferent parts—the price at which it is furnished
by a company, as it is said, of monopoly, and that at which
it might be supplied by other people trading on their own
responsibility. Upon all that full information is
contained in those documents which will be
laid before the Committee; and, Sir, any document
containing any better information than another which can
he procured, shall be unreservedly laid before those ap.
pointed to conduct the enquiry. Sir, among the considera-
tions which shall be presented to the Committee, I have re-
served the last place for that which is by far the most
important. I mean the welfare of those who are not sub-
ject to the dominion of the Government of India. Sir, I
have seen, drawn out with considerable accuracy, the
number of people subject to British laws, and that num-
ber amounting to no less than ninety millions of people ;
the extent of the population committed to the care of
the British Government is a subject of great importate e.
When we call to mind the Revolution of Empires, when
we reflect upon the immense extent of the Indian
Empire, the difference which prevails in the language,
manners, religion, and usages of the people, over which
this important body presides, the mind is lost in con-
templation of the various objects of our rule ; but whatever
sentiments we may entertain with respect to the general
bearing and the details of the subject, one feeling all
must admit must necessarily influence our deliberations,
namely, a deep sense of the responsibility which we our-
selves have incurred, and of the moral obligation which such
responsibility has imposed upon us—the moral obligation of
our paramount duty to promote to the utmost of our
power the moral and political improvement of the natives,
as far as we consistently can, with that deference and re-
spect which we (yacht to skew towards long established
institutions. That moral duty
imposes upon us the pa-
ramount obligation to protect the natives of that Empire
in the enjoyment, not only of their personal liberty and
the fruits of their industry, but to continue to them
that protection which they now enjoy under British rule,
as same compensation for the arduous struggles which they
have made, and the severe privations they have endured.
These, Sir, are considerations which, whatever may be our
desire to extend British commerce, and to consult the com-
mercial interests of our own country, must, in discussing a
question of this importance, necessarily enter into the deli-
berations of a British Parliament.—(Hear.)—Adhering,
therefore, to the principles which I had originally laid down,
and avoiding all reference to any subordinate considerations,
and unwilling to promote any altercation from which con-
flict might arise, I shall conclude by moving that a select
committee be appointed to enquire into the present state
of affairs of the East India Company, and the trade be-
tween Great Britain, India, and China.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. WHIT MORE approved of the line of conduct
adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman, in abstaining from
any subject that might create a difference of opinion, as it
was the most prudent course that could be pursued. The
Hon. Member expressed a hope that the Right Honourable
Gentleman did not mean to preclude the Committee from
taking into their consideration the state of the law in
India, civil and criminal generally, because he was satisfied
that without an inquiry embracing these subjects, the
House could not arrive at any conclusion which would
satisfy the just expectations of the people of this country
and of India.
Sir J. MACDONALD, as we understood him, requested
Mr. Peel would furnish the House with the names of the
Committee.
Mr. PEEL said he had no objection to comply
with the request of the Hon. Member. The number of
names was considerable ; and he hoped that any Gentle-
man who might find his name entirely excluded,
would not attribute such exclusion to any want of
respect to him, but attribute it to the necessity that
existed of limiting the number. The number was
extensive enough to insure not only a sufficient
attendance, but to enable the Committee to divide
themselves into sections for the consideration of papers,
and such financial measures as might be laid before them.
In making out this list his Majesty's Go-
vernment had endeavoured to preserve as fair
a representation as possible of the commercial and landed
interests of the country. The Right Honourable Gentle-
man then read the list of the Committee, among
which it appeared were the following names :—Mr.
A. Baring, the.Marquie of Chandos, Mr. Huskisson, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Milton, Mr. W.

Ward, Mr. Astell, Mr. Arbuthnot, Mr. Hume, Mr. W. i
Burrell, Mr. C. Fergusson, Sir R. Vyvyan, Mr. R. Grant,
Mr. 11. Davis, Mr. Stanley, Mr. C. Ellison, Sir J.
Macintosh, Mr. W. Wynn, Mr. S. Rice, Mr. S. Wortley,
Lord Ashley, Mr. T. P. Courtenay, Mr. W. Cavendish,
Mr. G. Bankes, Mr. W. Whitmore, Colonel Baillie, Mr.
P. Thomson, Mr. Irving, Mr. W. O'Brien, Mr. Little-
ton, Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. J. Peel, and Mr. S.
Wortley.
Sir J. MACDONALD said, that the gentlemen ap-
pointed on the Committee would have to consider
not only the commercial monopoly of the trade of
China, but more particularly another question intimately
connected with the commercial question, namely, the set-
tlement of British subjects in India, and under
what regulations the civil irtatitutions of those different
countries are conducted. Those considerations were of the
most vital interest to the country. He was glad to hear
from a Minister of the Crown, that the welfare of the mil-
lions under our rule in India was not to be lost sight of in the
inquiry. Having heard that, he had determined not to
say a single word on the subject, and nothing could have
induced him to depart from that determination, were it
not the publication of a most extraordinary letter, bearing
the signature of a Noble Lord to whose superintendence
the affairs of India were entrusted. How that letter came
before the public, it might be interesting to the parties
themselves to ascertain, but that could be of no import-
ance to that House. There the letter was; it was a
letter from the highest departmental authorities to a Go-
vernor of that country, addressed to him, not for his
amusement, but for his official instruction, and
for the more particular guidance of hie public conduct.
It could not he considered in any sense as a private
letter. That letter conveyed to the Governor the tone
and spirit in which it is was intended he should act in the
administration of justice in that country.--(Hear, hear. )
He adverted to that letter now, because he thought that the
tone and spirit were such as deserved animadversion.—
Though he was anxious that a question of such vast im-
portance should be investigated, yet he must protest against
the mode now proposed by the Right Hon. Gent. opposite ;
he could not believe how the system of the Adminis-
tration of justice in India could be improved by this plat.,
on the contrary, he did not think that it could be more
effectually brought into contempt with the public.
He wished to know why it was considered necessary to
expose the Committee to so much unnecessary trouble.
--(The Hon. Member then made some allusion to the
letter of Lord Ellenborough.)—The Right Honour-
able Gentleman had called on the House rather
abrup'ly to consent to the appointment of a Committee ;
it might seem invidious were he (Mr. Macdonald) to ob-
ject particularly to any one of the Members who were
to compose that Committee, many of them were well
qualified for the task, but he honestly confessed, that the
general complexion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's Com-
mittee was not such as to afford satisficticn to
the great trailing and commercial classes of this
country; and in question of so much import-
ance, and to which public attention was now
so completely directed it was essential that every thing
which bore the appearance of suspicion should be strictly
avoided. It was most desirable that the Committee should
be so balanced as to take away, if possible, all appear-
ance of advocacy either on the part of the Com-
pany or the public.—( Hear, hear. )—He believed the Noble
Lord at the head of the India Board when he wrote that
letter, had done so without thought, and when he alluded
to the renewal of the charter, he (Sir J. Macdonald) was
certain that the Noble Lord was ignorant of the intention of
his Majesty's Ministers. He could take it for granted they
were in no wise pledged, and he once more begged to ex-
press his earnest hope that the Committee would be so
framed as to give setiefaction to the important interests
which were so deeply affected by this decision.
Mr. HUkIE wished the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site would inform the House if the duties of the Coin-
mittee were to be confined to present circumstances, or
whether they were to have a retrospective operation.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he lad no hesitation
in answering the Hon. Member's qusstion. When he
proposed the Committee he did so with the intention of
taking the terms of the reference of the Committee of 1813,
which would have the effect of opening every question that
the most sanguine advocate for inquiry could desire.
Before he sat down he felt that it was necessary
to say one or two words in answer to the
observations which fell from the Honourable Member
fix Caine, with respect to the Committee which
he (Mr. Peel) had the honour to propose. He would
beg of the House to look to the names which appeared on
that Committee, and he would ask whether there was any
thing which could attach suspicion to there in the perform-
ance of the duty with which they had been intrusted.—
There were two of the Members of the city of London,
one for-Liverpool, one for Norwich, one for Lancashire,
one for Dublin, one for Yorkshire, and the Member for
Limerick. He surely thought that they could not be
suspected of partiality to either side in the discharge of
their duties.
Sir JAMES MACDONALD, in explanation, said
that he did not mean to insinuate any such
charge against them, but he contended that the
presence of so many of the East India Directors of that
House, was calculated to excite suspicion however
unfounded it might be in the public mind, and that be
was most anxous 1 o avoid.
Mr. HUME said that he hail no objection to any of the
members of the Committee, but lie thought it might be
extended in number with very beneficial effect, and he
therefore begged to propose that the names of Sir Henry
Parnell, Mr. Maberly, and Mr. Stuart be added thereto;
he had no doubt that the gentlemen of the Honourable
East India Company would not object to the appointment
of these gentlemen as they were all well acquainted with
the subject, and were practical men.
Mr. G. BANKES was desirous of answering some re-
flections that had been thrown out by the Hon. Member
for Caine against his Noble Friend at the head of the
Board of Controul. On a former night belted felt consi-
derable embarrassment when certain papers were alluded
to, because he had not had an opportunity of seeing or con-
versing with his Noble Friend on the subject, in conse-
quence of family affliction, and was not therefore in a situ-
ation to meet the matter as he otherwise should. He also
felt embarrassment on other grounds : lie alluded to the
necessity which might exist of referring, in the course of
the discussion, to circumstances affecting other persons,—
one of whom (Sir John Grant) was, perhaps, at this mo-
ment liable to be called on to answer certain charges else-
where, which might not appear altogether unconnected
with topics to which be should have occasion to advert.
Of course he was unwilling to say any thing that might
seem to prejudice 'individuals so circumstanced. How-
' ever, since the former discussion, he had had an opportu-
nity of informing himself, that the question before his Ma-
jesty in Council relating to Sir John Grant did not refer
to circumstances that had taken place antecedent to the
writing of the letter by the Noble Lord (Ellenhorough) :
consequently all difficulty upon that bead was removed,
and he was relieved from the feeling of delicacy which
would otherwise have operated on his mind lest he should
appear to affect, by his statements, persons who might
afterwards be put upon their trial. But, he repeated,
the circumstances lately considered before his Majesty
in Council related to matters that had arisen subse-
quently to the date of the Noble Lord's letter, therefore he
felt no difficulty in referring to that part of Sir John Grant's
conduct which gave rise to that letter. He thought it
right to set the Hon. Member's mind at rest upon one im-
portant point,—he alluded to that part of the lion. Mem-
ber's charge against the Noble Lord in which he blamed
the Noble Lord and his colleagues in office, imputing to
them a design of considering the great question of Indian
affairs as one which they had already settled in their own
minds, and with respect to which they were disposed to
dictate to the public. The Hon. Member referred, with
particular emphasis, to the sentence beginning, " as we
may not impossibly renew the charter next ye tr," and in-
ferred from it that this was a matter on which Ministers
had made up their minds without even the formality of
consulting the wishes of the public. The Noble Lord had
shown him a copy of the lever, the only one in his posses-
sion, and which came into his possession in this manner :
It was sent from Bombay, by Sir J. Grant, to his son in
this country, and by his courtesy handed to the Noble Lord,
tainted in
nt-ht ei na
view the charter next year."—(Laughter, and cries of
cceo py the
running, word
~ wasas wn
eo t 'fli‘ raeyn enwo
t, "
ibnui tp
0"s
sriebvi
yi e wr
e, '-'
" Oh ! oh !")—On a former occasion, when the discus-
sion arose so unexpectedly upon this letter, and at a period
too when it was peculiarly inconvenient to the person
principally concerned, he suggested that for many reasons
it might be only justice to his Noble Friend not to view
this private and confidential letter as a public commenica-
tion made in the discharge of his official duty ; and at the
same time be suggested that it was not only possible, but
probable, that errors had crept into the document in the
course of the various copies of it which had been taken,
particularly as the copies that appeared in the English
newspapers and in those of India differed in several r -
spects. His conjecture had been fully borne out : it ap-
peared that on the authority of the hest accredited copy
taken in India, there was an important variation in a ma-
terial, perhaps the most material word that occurred in the
ootire letter. It would be seen, therefore, that the Hon.
Member's fears were groundless when he imagined that the
Government were disposed to prejudge the question of the
renewal of the East India Cowpony's Charter. lie denied

that there existed any design to lower the dignity, rein-
promise the character, or destroy the independence of the
Judges in India. So far from this being the case, the di-
rect contrary was the fact, and lion. Members' fears on
this head were equally visionary with their apprehensions
upon the other. He disclaimed any such intention on the
part of his Noble Friend or his colleagues. If such 11 de-
sign existed, he, who possessed opportunities of knowing
the real seetiinente of the Noble Lord, was very ranch
mistaken indeed. He believed that no such design existed,
and if any thing of the sort was itaputed to the members
of the Board of Controul, it must have arisen from a mis-
construction of their proceedings. With respect to the
circumstances which led to a correspondence between Sir
John Malcolm and the Noble Lord, he had no intention of
touching that part of the subject further than was
necessary for the vindication of his Noble Friend-
He might here be allowed to observe on the Pe-
culiar hardship of the case, as applicable to the
charge brought against the Noble Lord. The discussion
was raised at a period a great many months distant from
the occurrences which occasioned the transaction—oeeur-
tences not my well known in England at the time, an'i
now almsot forgotten. Such being the case, it appeared
as if this letter were a manifesto intended to lower and
degrade the character of the Judges in India; but so far
from this being the case, the letter was a reply to commu-
nications made by Sir J. Malcolm to the Board of Con-
troul, under circumstances of considerable danger, excite-
ment, distress, and alarm. Sir J. Malcolm feeling the
urgency of a crisis, arising out of a new experiment of
legal authority made by the Judges of the Suprenme Court
at Bombay, sent overland despatches to this country,
giving an account of the proceedings in question, and call-
ing for the interposition of the home Government. In
these communications he stated that the tranquillity of
considerable part of India and the honour of the Govern-
ment was vitally concerned in having prompt attention
paid to the subject. It was our first and paramount duty
to consider the interest and happiness of the natives over
whom were called to preside as rulers, and nothing could
militate so much against their happiness and comfort as to
allow an interference such as the Supreme Court of Bom-
bay attempted to exercise. By the Judges of that Court
a new legal experiment was tried, the effect of which
would be to render natives residing at any distance," how-
ever great, from the Presidency, amenable to the regula-
tions of the Court, although they were strangers to our
larguage, cust me, and laws, and contemplated the latter
with sentiments of fear and apprehension. In confirma-
tion of this fact, the Hon. Gentleman referred to a minute
of Warren Hastings, in which it was stated that there was
one general and universal feeling of abhorrence among
the natives at the idea of the introduction of British
laws. They had a great fear of being made amen-
able to our laws, or brought directly or indirectly
within the reach of British Courts of Justice.—(A
laugh. )—Consequently, when for the first time this ex-
periment was resorted to by the Supreme Court of Bout-
bay—an experiment contrary to all previous legal usage,
and he would have appealed to the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough (Sir James Mackintosh), were he in his
place, to say whether, when he exercised the functions Of
a Judge in India, he would not have shrank from a pro-
position to exercise an authority over the natives to which
they were so repugnant—when such an attempt was made
it naturally produced the most unfavourable effects. Yet
two of the Judges of the Supreme Court held, that na-
tives living at eve: so great a distance from the Presidency
were amenable to the British law; and they, no doubt,
conscientiously, btit ignorantly, issued a process to s
Hindoo (although there was no pretence that he wits
amenable to their authority), and when an expression of
natural indignation and repugnance was excited from the
native by this proceeding, they issued further processes,
not unaccompanied by threats. The consequence of this
was, an appeal on the part of the native to Sir John
Malcolm, who, 'acting with the vigour and propriety that
invariably characterised his conduct, interposed, and de-
clared that such processes should not be issued against the
natives for the first time during his administration. Ile
acted with mildness, temper, and moderation, and tried
the effect of remonstrance upon the Court, but the Judges
persisted in urging their claims to the assumed authority
At this period the death of one of the Judges (Sir C.
Chambers) put an end to the controversy. Of that fenc-
tionmy he would say, that he was an amiable, conscien-
tious, and upright man as ever lived ; he had' made an un-
happy mistake—(" No, no,")—there was the authority
of his Majesty in Council for the assertion. Sir J. Malcolm
sent home despatches giving an account of these transac-
tions, lint leaving it to the authorities here to act with re-
spect to them as they should deem proper ; and it Noe
in reference to these matters that the private letter Of
the Noble Lord was written. There were then two va-
cancies on the bench of the Supreme Court at , Bombay,
and they were supplied ender the circumstances mention"l
in the letter. The observations made upon the letter went
far beyond what was fdrly authorized by its terms. With
respect to the appointments of the new Judges made by the
Noble Lord on that occasion, no improper motive could be
attributed to him, as he had, in fact, appointed two persons,
both of whom were unknown to him except by name. The
reason and represenfafons which had induced the Noble
Lord to appoint these gentlemen were very properly set
forth in the letter. With respect to one of them, Sir Wil-
liam Seymour, he wished to refer particularly to the words
of that document, bec tole they showed that not only had
Lord Ellenborough been actuated by no improper notice
or inducement, hut that he acted upon principles which
were much to his honour. The terms of the letter were
these—" The puisne judge appointed in the room of Sir
C. Chambers is Mr. William Seymour, of the Chancery
bar. The Lord Chancellor has a very good opinion of
him, and generally, I think, he appeared to have higher
claims than any other candidate. He is a gentleman in
his manners, and a man of cultivated mind. He seems to
have right notions of his duty." Now be observed on a
former night upon the hardship of judging of a person's
public conduct from a private and confidential letter; and
for this, among other reaomme,—that expressions might be
treed in such a communication, in an apparently ambiguous
sense, which might yet convey a perfect and consistent mean-
ing, only clear to the parties writing and receiving such a doe
cumin'. A knowledge of particular circums ances was often
necessary, in order to enable us to fix the true meaning of pri-
vate communications, and that knowledge was sometimes only
to be procured from the authors of them. Such was the case
in the present instance: the Noble Lord assured him that
the phrase " right notions of his duty," which might per-
haps he misconstrued, was used in consequence of the fol-
lowing circumstance :—Mr. Seymour waited upon the
Noble Lord upon the occasion of his appointment, when
Lord Ellenberough, entering into conversation with hint
with respect to the duties of a Judge, and wishing to sa-
tisfy himself how far Mr. Seymour was a fit person to fill
that situation, put some general questions to him upon the
subject, to which Mr. Seymour replied, " I cannot an-
swer you better or otherwise than by showing you what I
consider those ditties to be," and, producing certain ex-
tracts from the works of Sir W. Jones, which bore upon
the question, he continued—" These embody my notions
as to the duties of a British Judge in India, and According
to the rules which they lay down I shall regulate my con-
duct." It was to this the Noble Lord referred, when he
said Mr. Seymour " seemed to have right notions of his
duty."—(Hear, and laughter.)—He was sure the House
would excuse him for the anxiety which he had displayed
to vindicate the conduct of his Noble Friend, who was
absent, and felt most desirous for the removal of such im-
putations as hail been most unfairly cast upon him. The
Noble Lord's feeling when he wrote the letter in question
was, that one of our chief duties was to watch over and
protect the interests of the natives whO were Placed under
our controul ; and if, under the influence of such a feeling.
he had used any ambiguous expression that seemed to evince
a disposition to lower and disgrace the character of English
Judges in India, that interpretation was far ,from being tho
true one. The idea that such was his Noble Friend"
wish could have arisen only from a misconception of the
true design of the letter. It ores a part of the Noble
Lord's duty to vindicate the privilegesof the natives against
the assumptions of the Supreme Court of Bombay,—.the
rather, as the natives were in a state of the utmost excite-
ment, alarm, and dejection, at the measures of that court.
The matter had become a subject of consideration before
the Government at home—it was referred to the King in
Council ; and this was nn authority to which he pre-
sumedi t been
be vr
oe rueg• ht wouldobdeyfore
ehowco uansc
ildecisive.
Not
ot b
yEtzet hGoowv
ehr and.
ment of Ilambly—not by the Board of Controul—but at
the instance of Sir .1. Grant himself, who insisted open
being heard before that Court. The result was, that om
every point the Council decided that Sir J. Grant was roe
timely wrong. The Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief
Baron, and both the Chief Justices were present •at this
decision. Under such circumstances, where the ledge
was so much in the wrong, end the Governor so mue in
the right, end where the distress and alarm of the natives
were so great—so painfully pressed upon our notice—was
it not a venial error (if any) that an individual, actu ited
like the Noble Lord, should have written a letter, the ob-
ject of which was to comfort and protect the native. inh.s-
bitants of India ?—( Hears and a laugh.)—lt might be
sa rl " was it to he borne that public functionaries. shon'd
send despatches of a public nature of one tendency, and.
private letters, perhaps, of another?'' lie answered, that
the Noble Lord had no authority to send public despatch s
to India, and therefore could nut forward efflcial instetece
mut contradictory to his private letter, which had been

co rreriee;
disputes
fixed, so
sarY• g.
hutted his
that had I
that the I
lie did ni
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Mr, S'
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Sir J.

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:ie Noble
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st excite-
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on before
King in
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how had
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ted upon
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dictated by a spirit of humanity, and in which, if there
bere some expressions too warm, they ought to
excused, as admitting cf a satisfactory explana-
ti°a• This was not the first time that and] transactions
had occurred in India. Shortly after the first instill-
,4l of a supreme court, and the introduction of our laws
Into that country, a collision took plat:. between Sir Elijah
,I4"'Pey and Warren Hastings, with respect to which Par-
'lament was obliged to interfere. A prodigious sensation
l'as then created'. in this country and in India by that col-
; and upon that, as on the present occasion, no doubt
"eh party was actuated by conscieutdous motives.
as now, the Judges were on one side, and the Governor
'1 Council were upon the other ; and then, as now, so
far as the decisions went, it appeared that the Judges were
decidedly wrong. In the preamble of the Bill which
Passed the Legislature on the occasion of the former colli-
-14", after reciting the difficulties and inconveniences occa-
sioned by it, these memorable words were introduced :
" And whereas it is expedient that the native inhabitants
of our Indian territories shall be maintained and protected
Ira the enjoyment and exercise of their ancient laws,
'lanes, rights, and privileges." What could be more to
the purpose than this ? Where was a better vindication
to be found for the Noble Lord's letter, which was directed
towards the accomplishment of this very object ? That
was the purpose for which, among others, the Act of 1761
_was passed. It also defined the duties of the Supreme
,
"urt, and in order to prevent the possibility of the oc-
currence
of such unfortunate circumstances as arose out of
disputes like the present, its riglits and privileges were
filed, so that in this case no declaratory law was neces-
larY• He should not have satisfied himself if he had per-
tnitted his Nol/le Friend still to labour under the charges
that had been brought against him. His only wish was
that the Nobly Lord had had a more competent advocate.
Ile did not mean to say, that looking at the letter AS it
appeared in the newspapers, there was nothing contained
in it against which objections might be taken, but he had
Pointed out one of the errors that had crept into the news-
paper copies of the letter, and in the name of his Noble
Friend 1:e took this opportunity to disclaim all intention of
producing such an effect as had been imputed to him with
respect to lowering the character and dignity of the judi-
cial office in India.

Mr. STEWART pressed upon the House the necessity
of an immediate inquiry into the administration of justice
Si our Indian possessions, particularly as regarded the pro-
ceedings of the provincial courts, which depended solely
upon the local governments, and were exposed to the
operation of influence inconsistent with the administration
of impartial justice. The Hon. Gentlemen proceeded to
allude to an opinion expressed by the present Master of the
Rolls, on occasion of an appeal to the Privy Council from
the award of one of the provincial courts of India. Th
°Pinion was most unfavourable to the mode in which
Justice was administered in such courts, and characterized
their proceedings as disgraceful in the extreme ; and con-
trary to every principle of law and justice. The controul
exercised over these courts by the local governments was
not overlooked by Sir John Leach, who expressed his in-
tention to icy the matter before the Board of Contreul. It
It
Wall not wonderful if, under such circumstances, the
'natives of India were dissatisfied with the administration
of justice, if not positively averse from the operation of
English law. He did not admit their alleged dislike to
our laws, hut believed that they were dissatisfied with the
application of them in the local courts. With regard to
the extraordinary letter which had been written by the
Noble Lord to Sir J. Malcolm, he was glad to find
that the Noble Lord had got a copy of the letter,
and it seemed evident, from the way in which he
had obtained it, that the first use which Sir J. Malcolm
trade of this private and confidential letter, after reading
it at his breakfast table (as no doubt he did), was to
send it to Sir J. Grant. (Mr. G. Banks expressed his
dissent.) Certainly he understood the Hon. Member to
say, that Sir J. Grant sent a copy of the letter to his son,
from whose hands it came into the possession of the Noble
l'°rd ; and at the same time the Hon. Gentleman laboured
to prove that the letter was strictly private and confider-
!iali while be showed that it was not so considered by Sir
Malcolm, who handed it about publicly. This was the
'letter; which was merely private and confidential, which
contained no official instructions to Sir J. ;Malcolm, and
which, therefore, ought not to be noticed. He said that
the letter was a disgrace to a Minister of the King.—
(Hear, hear.)--The Hon. Gentleman stated that it was an
answer to urgent communications from Sir J. Malcolm on
Sh,e'ubject of the disputes between the Supreme Court and
the Governntent of Bombay. If so, lie trusted that they
should have copies of these urgent communications upon
ltthi ln
the table
before long. It might else be stated that Sir J.
appeared to have exceeded his legal authority by
opposing the proceedings of the Supreme Court : he should
like to know by what law he could do this. The Hon.
Member had read an extract from the preamble to an Act
- of Parliament--lie wished the Hon. Gentleman had gone
further, and mentioned the censure and recall of a Judge
which took place in consequence of his having accepted
office from a Governor-General. In 1780 or 1781, the
'Supreme Court was established. A dispute took place
between a Judge (Sir Elijah limpey) and the Governor.
The former having accepted a place in the Sudder Ailaw-
lut (the Company's Court) from the Governor-General,
the matter came before Parliament, and it was resolved,
by a majority of 55, in the year 1782, that the holding of i
a place or office under the East India Company by a Su-
preme Judge, tended to create a deference and subserviency
in the Supreme Court towards those over whose actions
the Court was intended to exercise controul. An address
was presented to his Majesty to recall Sir E. linpey, for
accepting office under such circumstances; and further pro-
ceedings were adopted, to whein however, it was not now
necessary to allude more particularly. What did this pre-
nettling prove, but that it was the object of the Legislature
to have the Supreme Court independent of and uninflu-
enced by the governments of India? He should like to
hear the Hon. Member state what law existed to justify
any one—be lie Governor or other functionary—in inter-
fering
with the proceedings of the Supreme Court. No
authority,, of that sort could be legally exercised, even on
the
Pretence
of expediency; and that there existed any
n
of expediency in this instance lie altogether
denied. The interference in this case, therefore, was an-
Accessary and unetlled for. He had spoken of the feel-
ringo resolutions; i ont h House on the matter as recorded in former
; anti if we looked at the concluding clause of
tieisaescharter under which the Supreme Court at Bombay
wee established, we should find it equally strong as to the
pendence and cuntrouled jurisdiction of that Court.—
According2deagistrates, and
to the words of the charter, all governors,
persons in authority in India, were strictly
. charged, in the exercise of their respective powers, to be
a 'cung, assisting, and obedient to the Court in all things,
assirthey should answer the contrary at their peril. Had
:•1* Malcolm acted in obedience to the Supreme Court?
-setae tue contrary—he opposed it. Could a reasonable
ITitchen
settiloni o •i the
d be shown for his conduct ? He thought not.—
lygurstion that bad been raised was as to the juiis-
dolSupreme Court. Parliament alone could
decide that question, and he trusted that it would be de-
- tided, very shortly. He could not help regretting that the
alight, non. Gentleman had not proposed the appointment
"f two or three Committees, instead of one, on this sub-
-3;". By such a mode, greater justice would have been
eta._ .
. "e to the question, which consisted of various distinct
branches.a For instance, the trade between Great Bri-
tt'n and China and the trade between Great Britain and
rirish India were totally distinct questions, and must be
r!_7i(led on different and distinct grounds. If, therefore,
trunittees had been appointed to inquire into each of
_lese branches, he thought the course would have been
Preferable to that now proposed. Particularly be was of
1.1),!ldoe that a Committee or a Commission should be
Itbsvitli appointed, to inquire into the administration of
;t
j"tiee in India
• •
• G. BANKES begged be might be allowed to say
GI. d in explanation Ile had not said that Sir John
ueant received a copy of the letter from Sir John Malco.lm.
he ~!d). stated, that a copy of the letter had been received
c-T John Grant, but he did not say, nor did he know,
"oln whom
11:11t.' STEWART perfectly understood the Hon. Gent.
1,
40. d merely inferred that the letter had been received
An, Sir John Malcolm.
wertr• LITTLETON begged to know if the Committee
It t. t° report their opinisn to the Ilouse on this question?
Co-" admitted on all hands to be a most important ques-
balthough he knew that the House was not
th°:ll4.ll.'' the report of a Committee, yet lie knew also that
the °Plnlt'd of a Committee had great weight bo.th upon
howHOuse, with the Government, and on the public mind.
he thought that the house, and not a Committee,
ought to decide•of tl • In NM,
a great question this neture •
hen the renewal of the Company's charter was under
414ansideration, the course mirsued by the House was to de-
g; from the Governmi nt its own views, which were
. sjittl' in the shape of resolutions. This course, as the re-
tnito,Prwredi was very erroneous. Then there was a Com-
14,t.''c of the whole House, and evidence was beard at the
ipp; but the inconvenience of this mode became quickly
feeraLenti and the consideration of the subject was trans-
Post-„,• t° a Committee up stairs. That Committee re-
Cele': no opinion ; it merely reported the evidence from
Eigh;°„tirne- Now, he was sure that the speech of the
. ebee."". Gent. would be extremely well received by the
veNtri% declaring, as it did most explicitly, that the Go-
All %bent"
eohad taken nofixed resolution on t subect.—
uld be demanded or expected was ahe free injquiry

Ile did, however, hope that it was not intended to invite
the Committee to report their opinion upon a great and im-
portant question like tha.
ali% PEEL said, that lie had already expressed the hope
hat the House wou'd reserve to itself its 'judgment on this
odejsct. He certainly sheild rather that the Committee '
reported the evidence, and altstiined from reporting their
iwn views. At the seine time, however, it would be ex-
,remelv difficult to restrain the Committee from reporting
my opinion of their own. Far instance, a very large
:oars of papers relative to the finances of the Company
.vould be sWirnitted to the Committee ; and the Committee
!night Mel it extremely troublesome to report even a sum- •
'nary of these. Again, iu considering the administration •
of justice in India, the Committee might think it right to
call the attention of the House to existing inconveniences,
and to projected improvements. Ile recollected that the
Committee on the State of Ireland gave a general sum-
mary of their labours, but that they offered no opinion on
the Catholic question. Under all the circumstances con-
nected with this subject, he thought there would be much
awkwardness in restraining the Committee from offering
any opinion to the House ; and although be repeated the
hope that the House would reserve to itself its own judg-
ment, yet ha thought it ought to be left to the Committee
to use their own discretion as to what observations they
should make in their reports.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. lIUSKISSON said he should not forget, in the
few observations he had to make, that neither the tran-
sactions at Bombay, nor the letter written by a Noble
Lord, were before the House ; hut that the sole questio❑
before them was, whether they should refer to a Select
Committee, an inquiry into the commercial and financial
concerns of the East India Company.—(Hear.)—As,
however, the letter of the Noble Lord had been mentioned,
he must protest against it being received as a private com-
munication only, for as it was sent to a person holding a
high station, and as it related to most important matters,
it ought to be fit to come before Parliament.—(Hear,
hear.).--He would say no more upon that letter now ;
but, if it ever came before them regularly, he hoped they
would vindicate themselves from the imputation that they
meant to lower the dignity and the independence of the
Judges.—(Hear, hear.)—Certainly nothing could be less
compatible with dignity and independence than for a
learned judge to be placed in the situation in which a wild
elephant was placed when such animal was led away be-
tween two tame ones.—(Hear, and laughter. )—At least
this was true, if he might depend upon the descriptions
given by those writers who had witnessed the ceremony of
leading away a wild elephant between two tame ones.
With respect to the question before them, he thought that
his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) had full• redeemed the
pledge that had been given in the last Session of Parlia-
ment. No one could doubt, after the speech of his Right
Hon. Friend, that this inquiry was to embrace every
question connected with the subject. In inquiring into
the subject, moreover, he hoped that it would be probed
to the bottom. For instance, when they came to deal with
the finances of the Cnnpany, be hoped the Committee
would net confine their inquiries to the income and ex-
penditure of the Company, but to how the revenue was
collected, and from what it was derived.—(Hear, hear. )
He was glad to hear that the Committee was not to re-
ceive any preconceived notion of the Government of the
subject of their inquiries. lie agreed with his Right llon.
Friend that in making alterations they ought to proceed
with care and caution ; but, at the same time, he should
have bee❑ better pleased if his Right Hon. Friend had not
exhibited so strong a bias towards retaining too much of
the present machinery. He should be sorry that an im-
pression should go forth that the Government had a bias
towards retaining every thing as it was, and that it was
the opinion of Government that there ought not to be
those changes which the public voice, out of doors, had
said ought to be made. He hoped that he hail mistaken
the views of the Government, as he had gathered them
from the speech of his Right Hon. Friend ; but that un-
fortunate letter, which had been so often alluded to, had
already produced the same impression abroad, and it was
desirable that it should be contradicted. To the Com-
mittee would be opened a fearfully extensive field of in-
quiry; and he perfectly agreed with his Right Hon.
Friend, that the House at large, and not the Committee,
ought to decide upon those great branches which sprung
out of the question. The extent of the subject inclined
him to agree with the Hon. Member near him, who
suggested that the appointment of two or three
Committees would be preferable to the present
course. He would detain the House no longer on
this subject; but upon another subject he wished to ask,
if the Government were not disinclined to furnish it, for
some information. He begged to ask of the Government
if they nicest to deal with another great charter, which
would expire about the same time with the charter of the
East India Company, and which was of equal importance,
in the same manner in which they now proposed to deal
with this ?—he need hardly say that he alluded to the
charter of the Bunk of England.--(Loud cries of " Hear.")
—When he spoke of the charter of the Bank of England,
he must say, that out of the use, not to say the abuse, of
that charter, had grown most of the evils and the diffi-
culties under which the country now laboured.—(Cheers.)
He would not say the abuse of the charter, but the mis-
use, if they pleased, for he had no intention of attaching
blame either to the Government or to the Directors. He
11 would not go into this subject now, hut, ie alluding to it, be
must say that if the country found itself under difficulties,
many of them might be traced to the manner in which
the Bank of England had been dim ected, so as to be the
means of influencing the prosperity of the country. No
man could look dispassionately at the history of the last
thirty years, without seeing that the powers vested in the
Bank of England had affected the property and the pur-
suits of every man in the country, even to a greater de-
gree than the highest prerogative of the Crown—the pre-
rogative which placed the country in a state of war or in
a ►tate of peace.—(Hear, hear.)—Now he wished to ask
whether, with respect to the charter of the Bank of Eng-
lend—as it must be reviewed, and as great inconvenience
would result from not reviewing it some—he wished to
ask the Government whether, with respect to their char-
ter, they would take example by the excellent course they
were following with respect to the charter of the East
India Company; and whether, instead of their proposing
some arrangement, we should have a committee of in-
quiry before the renewal teok place ? He believed that
the country would receive greater benefit, and the Bank of
England greater secur;ty, by this than by any other
means.—( blear, hear.) He thought that the charter of
the Bank of England, subject to modifications, ought to
be continued ; but he was of opinion that there ought to
be an inquiry first, because much good would result from
such a course. If it were said that the charter of the
Bank had hitherto been renewed without inquiry, he
could only observe, in answer, that such was not the pro-
per, though it might have been the uniform course.—
Besides, such renewals had taken place in time of war,
when the convenience of the Government was, perhaps,
more considered than the interest of the public, and he
did hope the House would consider that at a time of peace
and tranquillity, like the present, was the most favourable
time for taking this great and important subject into con-
sideration. --(Cheers. )
Mr. J. STUART defended (as we understood) the con-
duct of the East India Company, and said, that Directors
of the Company were as fit as any other Hon. Members
to be of the Committee. (The Hon. Member spoke frem
under the gallery, and we could only gather here and there
a few words of his speech.)
Mr. STEWART and Mr. HustossoN explained, in con-
sequence of something (which we did not hear) that had
fallen from Mr. J. STUART.

General GASCOYNE expressed himself dissatisfied

with the persons placed on the Committee. He objected
to them collectively, not individually, and he begged leave
to express and to assert the suspicion that. the Govern-
ment, notwithstanding the appointment of the Committee,
had already come to a determination on the question. He
expressed this suspicion, in order that he might warn those
interested in the question.
Mr. PEEL thought that after what had already fallen
from him, he might justly complain of the warning and
the suspicion of the Hon. Member for Liverpool (General
Gascoyne).—( Hear, hear.)—He had stated that this
Committee was not appointed to ratify any engagement,
expressed or implied, with the Company, and that there
was no preconceived determination on the part of the Go-
vernment respecting this question. Ile repeated this
declaration once more ; and ho left it to the House to de-
cide whether to this declaration or to the suspicions of the
Hon. Member the greater weight was due.—(Cheers.)
Mr. ASTELL begged to repeat, what he had often said
on former occasions,—namely, that the Directors of the
East India Coiripany desired nothing more earnestly than
the fullest inquiry into this subject. What the Directors
complained of most was, the ignorance which prevailed on
this subject, and which, by deluding the country, became
the greatest enemy they had to contend with. The part
of the present motion which was most acceptable to him
was the latitude which it proposed to give to the inquiries
of the Committee. The mote the subject was investi-
gated, the more likely would it be that the Directors, who
had always invited and never shrunk from inquiry, would

have justice done them. Let the Committee obtain the
fullest evidence ; let them examine all the documents
that would be brought before them ; and then they
would be ab'e to decide whether India could be better go,.
verned,—whether justice could be more fairly admi-
nistered, and whetli,r the happiness of the natives could

be more humanely eonculted.—(Cheer=.)—lle not
mean to say that the system was not teirelde of improve-
ment, and if improvements were pointed out, he should be
the first man to vote for them.---(Hear, hear )—All that he
contended for was this—that the DirectieF had done all
they could, and that they had neva- lost sight. of the inte-
rests of their country in the purenit of their own. He
wanted to know, then, why he, as an East India Direc-
tor, was incapable of performing the duties of a member
of this Committee? He was a Member of the British
Legislature, and he claimed, as a right, that which some
gentlemen seemed disposed to think he was incapacitated
for.—(Hear, hear.)—He repeated that he claimed it as a
right ; and he wished the House to decide whether, be-
cause he was an East India Director, he was, for that rea-
son, incapable of performing his parliamentary duties like
an honest man.—(Cheers.)—He trusted that, although
an East India Director, he had as strong a sense of duty as
the Hon. Member for Liverpool.
Mr. lIUSKISSON did not know if he were the per•
son alluded to, hut it would be in the recoPection of the
House that he had not objected to the nomination of East
India Directors on this Committee. He begged also to be
excluded from the number of those who were ignorant of
this subject, and who, by their ignorance, had deluded the
country.
Mr. A. BARING next addressed the House, but his
first few sentences were very indistinctly heard in the gal-
lery, owing to the low tone in which he spoke. Owing
to the same cause, several passages of his speech were in-
audible. We understood him to begin by expressing his
great satisfaction at the questions which had been put re-
specting the Bank of England. The subject was one of
the highest importance, and the sooner it was brought be-
fore the House the better. With respect to the question
immediately before the House, he had no ground whatever
for supposing that the Right Hon. Gentleman had any
other view in the appointment of the Committee than that
which he had fairly avowed. As to the point to which
some Hon. Members had alluded, the eligibility of Di-
reseors of the East India Company to sit as members of
the Committee,—he would observe, that if the great in-
formation and practical knowledge they possessed were not
required for the fair discussion and explanation of Indian
affairs, he would have no hesitation in saying that, prima
facie, there would exist many strong grounds why they
should not be put upon it. But he admitted that the ne-
cessity of obtaining that information which they possessed
obviated those objections. Individually he had the highest
respect for them, but on principle he must say that, but for
the causes he had assigned, he would object to their sitting
as Members of the Committee. If this were not a com-
pany of long standing by charter—if it were the case of
an ordinary company—a gas company, or seine such, it
would not be listened to for a moment, that Members who
were its directors should sit on a committee which had to
inquire into its affairs ; and surely the great interest which
they possessed, the immense power and patronage which
they enjoyed, ought to be so many grounds of disqualifi-
cation, were it not without the constant attendance of
some members of that body the Committee would be de-
prived of many sources of information which they were
so well qualified to give. As to the inquiry itself, the only
doubt he had was, that which had been already expressed
by other Members, whether the very extensive objects
which they had in view, and the various subjects to which
their attention would necessarily be called, would come
within the grasp of one Committee. This most important.
question, embracing so many distinct interests, involving
so many separate inquiries—the amount of revenue end
expenditure—the state of its finances—the adminstration
of justice—the condition of the people—would not only
require an extraordinary degree of patience in those to
whom the inquiries were committed, but to examine each
with the attention it demanded, would consume as much
these as was ordinarily allotted to the life of man.—(Hear,
hear.)—Any one of the subjects which which were to be
brought under investigation would of itself be as much as,
and more than, a Committee could well go through in any
reasonable time ; but when the whole were put together,
they certainly presented a most formidable mass, from
which one would shrink, if he did not hope that some
good would be the result of the attempt. He did not
on these grounds object to the Committee, but he owned
that he went to it without any strong conviction that
they would be able to do much. If he were dealing with
a Minister on whom he bad less reliance than he had on the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he should form a very
different opinion of the question from that which he now
did ; but having the utmost confidence in the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and firmly believing that he meant what he
said, he took the subject as it was offered. Without such
confidence he would be led to suppose that it was intended
to overpower the Committee with such an immense mass
of evidence of every kind, that it would be impossible for
them to come to any decision. As he had stated, he felt
no such apprehension, and therefore (as he now under-
stood his name was on the list) he would go to the in-
quiry with a strong determination of doing every thing in
his power to promote its objects. Let Hon. Members,
however, who anxiously looked forward to what they
hoped would be the result of this investigation not be
too sanguine. Let them remember that the Finance Com-
mittee had sat an entire session, and that, after a diligent
attention, they had in that time only been able to carry
their inquiries through one department, that of the Board
of Ordnance. But this, compared with the mass of
matter which was to be brought under the consideration cf
this Committee, was only a mere point ; for let it be re-
collected that the annual payments made by the India Com-
pany were greater than those made by the Government of
this country, with the exception of the national debt and
fixed payments. In this immense range of accounts, there
might lie many abuses, and the difficulty of their inves-
tigation would be great in proportion to the distance at
which the transactions took place. Separate committees had
been suggested by some Hon. Members ; and though he
admitted that the subjects were important enough to de-
mand separate investigation, yet he saw the difficulties in
the way of having different committees sitting at the same
time upon different inquiries connected with India. Yet
an exception, he thought, might be made on one point.
He thought it would be well to separate the question of
the China trade from the other subjects; but as this was
not the intentian of Government, he hoped that something
tending to the same end would be done, by the Commit..
tee reporting to the House from time to time, as any thing
of importance pressed itself on their consideration. An
Hon. Member lied urged an objection against the Com-
mittee offering any opinion of their own in their reports,
and insisted that they should confine themselves to laying
before the House the evidence le bleb they had taken.
If they were to confine themselves within the limit of
laying a bundle of evidence on the table, they would labour
to very little purpose iudeed : for theme were a great
variety of important details—such as the state of the
Company's finances—the China trade—and how far the
quality and price of tea were affected by that monopoly—
to which they would have to call the attention of the
Housl from time to time; and if they were prevented
from doing this, he owned he could not see to what
useful purpose they should labour. This was a matter
which, as had been observed by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, should be left entirely to the discretion of
the Committee. Let it he remembered that if they
offered any opinion, that opinion would not be binding
on the House. The Right Hon. Gent, would find that
Committee having to wade through such a mass of details
would move very slowly, and he (Mr. Baring) therefore
hoped that if at the end of the session they should have
made but little progress in their labours, the Right Hon.
Gent. would not object to the renewal of the Committee in
the next year. With respect to the names, if they were to
be such as had been read, he saw no objection to them, for
they appeared to have no appearance of selection for any
particular purpose distinct from a full and fair inquiry.
Mr. BRIGHT thought, that instead of this roundabout
way, Ministers ought to have come down to the House
and stated what were the measures they intended to pro-
pose with respect to the company, and if the House should
not approve of them, then it would be time enough to send
them to a Committee. He, therefore, protested against
the course now proposed, because he thought that in the
delays which would necessarily take place in the investiga-
tion of an important question of this kind, it would be
thrown over from one session to the other for an indefinite
time ; for if they found it difficult and tedious to pursue
an investigation where all the parties and documents ne-
cessary to the inquiry were at hand, how much more
tedious anti difficult would it not be where the inquiry re-
lated to transactions which took place at so many thousands
of miles distance? However, he would not then go into
that part of the subject. He rose to protest against this
mode of going into an investigation where parties had
already made up their minds. For his own part, he would
re,erve his opinion until he saw time evidence which should

be laid before the Howie, without pledging himself to any
opinion that might 46 offered. He would prefer that the
reports of the Committee should be confined to the simple
detail of the evidence which would be laid before them,
and indeed he should like that it were mmed as an in-
struction to the Committee not to offer any opinion of their
mvn. The House would eventually decide whether the
Committee offered any opinion or not—and he would ask
whether any opinion given by thirty or forty gentlemen
so well qualified to give it by their previous habits and
acquaintance with the subject, would not be calculated to
incline the House to any side to which it might lean ? It
would in fact be almost delegating to the Committee the
power of deciding on the question, as well as of inquiring

into it. Put on s subject of so touch importance to the
interest of the country, it behoved every lion. Member to
judge for himselr, and therefore he was anxious before-
hand to guard lion. :\ !embers against being led away by
any opinion formed by the Comniittee. Looking at the
immense mast of matters, etch of great importance in
its lf, which were to be submitted to this Committee, he
°wiled that ha had very little hope of any good result from
it. To examine tl:e subject with the attention it deserved
would !quire the whole of a raan's life. A letter from
the production of whielt might be considered neces-
sary by the Committee, would require two or three years.
Despatches would be to be sent out for this and the other
piece of evidence, and thus the inquiry might go o❑ from
year to year without any practical good result. Ile again
repeated that lie had no hope of any good from this Com-
mittee, but as they seemed disposed to agree to it, he
would not; object now, but would reserve his opinion until
he saw the evidence.

Mr. P. THOMSON said that last year the Hon. Mem-
ber who had just addressed the House was loud in his cries
for a Committee of Inquiry. His great objection to Mi-
nisters on that occasion was, that they had cone down to
the House with their resolution, without giving the House
an opportunity of previous investigation ; that on a sub-
ject where the the interests of thousands were concerned,

they should first submit the matter to investigation ; and
that when it bad been well weighed and considered, it
would be then time to legislate. This was the language of
the lion. Member last year; but now, when matters, in-
volving the interests of not less than ninety millions of
people were to be made the subject of discussion, he would
have no inquiry ; but all at once go into the matter, and
legislate without any inquiry whatever.—(Hear, hear.)—
A more unjust charge had never been made against Minis-
ters, nor a more unfounded statement had ever been made
than that the public would he satisfied with the proposi-
tion of legislative measures on this important subject with-
out inquiry.—(Hear.)—Surely the Mon. Member could
not have attended much to what had been passing
in the country during the past and part of the present
year, during which the public were loudly calling for in-
vestigation, and he (Mr. Thomson) bad no doubt that if
we could know what was now passing in India, we
should find that inquiry en this subject was as anxiously
sought for there as it was here. 'I he only doubt which
he (Mr. Thomson) had of the Committee was, that which
had been expressed by the Hon. Member for Callington
(Mr. A. Baring), that one Committee would not be suffi-
cient for the various subjects which were to be embraces!.
He thought that one should be appointed to examine into
the state of the China trade, and another to consider of the
condition of the trade to India—its revenue, and the civil
government and judicial administration of that country.
Perhaps it would be well if the latter were separated from
the other subjects of inquiry. On this, however, he
would not offer an opinion, for he did not feel himself com-
petent to judge, and he would not obtrude farther on the
indulgence of the House, as he rose chiefly for the pur-
pace of repelling the unjust charge made on Ministers by
. .

•
the Hon. Member who spoke last.
Mr. BRIGHT in explanation said, that the Honourable
Member whe spoke last mistook him. He had no objec-
tion to inquiry, but he could not concur in the plan of
throwing the whole weight and responsibility of this im-
portant matter in the first instance on a Committee.
Mr. PEEL said that the financial and the general con-
dition of India were so connected, that he did not know
Low they could be separated, or made the subject of in-
qoiry by separate committees ; but if in the course of their
investigation the Committee about to be appointed should
see the expediency of such a course, they could recommend
it, and from time to time might call the attention of the
House to such detached points as they might see necessary.
The question that the Committee he appointed was then
put, and carried, and the Speaker had commenced reading '
the list of names of those who were to compose it, when
Mr. HUSKISSON suggested that the name of Mr.
Marshall, of York, should be added to the list. He did
this, though personally a stranger to that gentleman, but
considering the interests he represented, and his great in-
telligence, he thought he ought to be on the Committee.
Perhaps there would be no objection to substituting his
name for that of the Hon. Member for Sussex, who, very
probably, would not be disposed to attend.
Mr. PEEL said, that he had made the selection with a
view to the interests they represented, or their particular
acquaintance with the subject. He could have, on other
grounds, no objection to the gentleman named ; but if one
was admitted, and others who might be proposed by other
Members refused, it would appear to be making invidious

distinctions. Besides, the interests of the county of York
were not left unrepresented, as Lord Milton was one of
the Committee.

General GASCOYNE expressed his intention of mov-
ing, in the course of a few days, that it he a special in-
!ruction to the Committee to take into consideration, in
the first instance, the state of the trade with China.
The Committee, as already named, was then put, and
the list read agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. lluma, Mr. J. Stewart was
added to the Committee.
EXPORTS AND IMPORTS.

Mr. Alderman WAITLIMAN then rose to make the
motion of which he had given notice, from a comparative
account of the declared and official value of various exports
and imports since 1798. The Hon. Member proceeded
to show in nearly the same manner as upon the occasion of
a similar motion last session, that the present mode of esti-
mating our exports and their official value was extremely
erroneous, and calculated to mislead the public as to the
real condition of our foreign trade. From 1798 to 1914
the real value of the exports had always exceeded the offi-
cial value, and the gross amount of the excess in those
years amounted to the enormous sum of 240,000,000/.
From 1814 to 1819, the real value began to fall below
the official, but still the official value wow continued.
From 1819 to 1828, the official value rose above the real,
from 36,000,000/. to 52,000,000/. The excess of the
official above the real, in those years, amounted to
80,000,0001., being a difference of 8,000,000/. per an-
num. Under the operation of the present system our
export trade, as he could prove, had been long falling off
at the rate of eight millions and a half annually. This
enormous deficiency had now actually existed for years
upon years, notwithstanding the sacrifices which
had been made so unscrupulously by Parliament
to the interest of that trade. Ship-owners were
injured, other parties were injured with a view to its
increase and sust tinment; yet all to no purpose., Such
was his assertion, and he would not flinch from inquiry
into the facts upon which it was founded. If wrong, of
course he would be open to correction. The Hon.
Alderman here quoted the opinion of Sir John Barnard
in support of the general principle in favour of which he
had been contending. With respect to the consequences
of overtrading and inconsiderate enterprise, it was suf-
ficiently evident that every year so distinguished, had
always produced a cot responding depression, and goods
were eventually sold at a considerable sacrifice. Whenever
there was a great exportation, it was not unfrequently
followed by distress. An excess of export _trade was,
therefore, by no means to be taken as an evidence of
public prosperity. He deprecated the flourishing speeches
about national prosperity, too often put forth by Chancel-
lors of th► Exchequer, which invariably created this spirit
of over-trading throughout the country, When poverty
and bankruptcy, the natural consequences, arrived, those
very official boasters were the first to turn round and laugh
at the deluded victims of their own frothy declamation.
In saying this, however, he did not mean to cast a reflec-
tion on the Right Pion. Gentleman at present in office.
The statements he Alluded to were more prominently visible
in 1825, after which a panic with all its calamitous results
bad ensued, and brought numbers to beggary and ruin.
The Honourable Member proceeded to eulogise the Bank
of England for the efficient and praiseworthy manner
in which its affairs had been generally conducted.
To the Bank of Englund, in his opinion, was the
country indebted for its salvation in 1797. It was strange
that certain Right Hon. Gentlemen, with such a fact
before their eyes, should now appear disposed to turn
round and reproach its managers with evils over which
they could by no possibility have controul. That there
was something faulty in the present state of our Admi-
nistration he thought might be inferred from the solitary
fact that there was an increase of from 4,000 to 16,000
criminal commitments during the last thirty years, and
this, notwithstanding the spread of our civil and charitable
institutions—notwithstanding "the schoolmaster has been
abroad" in every direction. He only demanded to be put
on his trial to prove the truth of all that he had repre-
sented, and he most readily would do it. He intended to
move separately for accounts concerning cotton and printed
goods, because those articles paid duty as before, although
they had suffered so material a depreciation in their prices.
It was his wish that Ministers should cut down taxation
in every department where they possibly could, and yet
even by so doing he feared that they would still be unable
adequately to meat the distress of the population. If they
would only deal in all respects candidly and frankly with
the country, he, for one, would be willing to make some
aliowance for past theoretical errors, and repose some con-
fidence in their ability and integrity for the future. But
Ile would take the liberty to remind them of certain lines
iu Hudibra', which seemed somewhat applicable to
themselves :

He who hangs or knocks out brains,
" The devil's in it if he feigns."
G.)vei nmeut, however, had already said that they could do

nothing to alleviate the public calamities. if so, such a
government was worse than useless, and revolutionary con-
sequences would become inevitable. He then proceeded
to move as follows :
An account of the exports of British manufactures and
produce, from 1798 inclusive, to the Ist of January, 1814,
specifying the official and real value, with the increase and
decrease in each year as the same may be, of the real as
compared with the official value, and the gross amounts.
A like account of the exports, from 1814 inclusive, to
the sth of January, 1830.
Like accounts of the exports of colonial and foreign
produce.
Like accounts of the exports from Ireland.
Like accounts of the imports for the same periods.
An account of the exports of cotton goods front 1814
inclusive, to the sth January, 1830, specifying each year
the increase and decrease of the real as compared with the
official value.

A like account of the exports of printed cotton goods,
ith the amount of duties received and drawbacks allowed
each year upon the same.
Mr. HUME could not agree with the Hon. Member.—
According to tee best of his belief and experience, active
industry, so far from suffering the alleged depression within
the period referred to, had, on the contrary, doubled and
trebled in its results.—(Tlear, hear.) He wished there-
fore to dispel the delusion which such misrepresentations
were calculated to produce. To take the official value as
any criterion, except for quantity, was a very great mis-
tahe. In 1823 the official value was greater than the real
value by nearly 16,000,0001. But this was not univer-
sally the case : in one year it exceeded, and in another
might fall short of it. The effect of machinery had been
adverted to, but nothing could go farther to prove the im-
portant change in the prices of manuf ;ctures which man's
inventive ingenuity had created, than the fact that bob-
binet, which had been at 11. per yard a few years ago,
was now to be had for Is. 6d. This be considered a most
material advantage, so far from tieing an injury to the
country.—(Bear.) The cheaper every necessary article
could be procured the better for the public. Those who
could not afford to wear a rag before, were at the present
day enabled to purchase good clothing. In support of
what he had advanced with respect to the official ♦alue,
he might merely mention, that every pound of cloves im-
ported into England was estimated in the Custom-house
at Ks., whereas they ♦ery often fetched 15s. in the
market, while on the other hand they were sometimes sold
at half-a-crown. Free trade had done us no injury
whatever, and ought to he still further extended, in-
stead ofbeing in any way contracted. Away, then, with all
this bothering nonsense.—(Laughter.) When gentlemen,
who unluckily represented important and respectable towns,
came down to that House preaching such intolerable
❑onsense and humbug, lie felt inclined to ask them what
would Venice, Genoa, or any other of the powerful mari-
time states of Europe have been without their commerce.
—(1-fear. )—Some of these notable legislators had even
gone so f.r as to say that it would be better for England to
have no foreign commerce whatever. But this was such
unmitigated and irremediable absurdity, that it did not
deserve a moment's consideration. Why, except for free
trade, the people would be soon reduced to utter ruin, and
driven to the necessity of eating one another, surrounded as •
they must be upon all sides by a political wall of brass.—
(Laughter.)—He would wish, however, most earnestly to
see taxation snore equalized, and taken as much as possible
off the poor working classes, upon whom it now pressed so
hard. The labouring poor at present contributed four-
fifths of the taxes, while millions gave comparatively
nothing.—(Hear.)—Let the burden of taxes he imposed
chiefly on property and capital, the owners of which were
SJ forward to claim priority in representation that it would
he a pity to refuse them precedence in this particular like-
wise.—(Hear.)—ln that case he affirmed that the land
would no longer be burdened with pauperism, manufactures
would flourish, and the whole body of society be improved
in proportion. Let Hon. Members look at soap, candles,
and leather, which were respectively doubled in value to
the consumer by taxation: Any gentleman could go into
a shop and buy tallow for himself at Sd. per lb. ; but when
he purchased it in candles he was obliged to pay 61d. or
7d., losing at the rate of 30 per cent. in that article alone.
The Hon. Member recommended the House to consult a
document containing much useful iuformation upon this
subject, which was in possession of the member for Corn-
wall, who, be was sure, would readily give a copy to any
Member who might desire it.
Mr. ROBINSON (of Worcester) said, the advocates of
the present system of free trade dwelt much on the appa-
rent iacrease in the amount of our exports as a proof of
our increasing wealth and commerce; but they seemed to
forget that there were but two elements in those exports—
namely, capital and labour ; and that when the imports
not only did not replace this capital and labour, and leave
an income profit and high wages to the capitalist and the
labourer, but actually were less, the nation must be de-
teriorating, however numerically great might be those ex-
ports. They also seemed to forget, that, however unob-
jectionable free trade might be in the abstract, to be
advantageous it should be general; and that if this country
acted on it while other countries pursued a different policy,
they would be the gainers and we so far the losers. It
was an argument urged by Lord Goderich, when a Mem-
ber of that House, that all we had to do was to lead the
way in acting upon the anti-restrictive s)stem, and that
other nations would immediately follow the beneficent
example. But what was the fact ? Did France or Ame-
rica imitate our conduct ? By no means. France had
lately asserted the advantages of the prohibitive-system,
and America had re-enacted the tariff.—(Hear.)—Those,

therefore, who questioned the policy of free trade, had the ex-
ample of other countries to appeal to, and surely were wor-
thy of attention when they asked the House not to abandon
its free trade enactments, but merely to revise them.
The distress was too general, too all-pervading, to be
longer passed over without a minute investigation of its
causes, in order to get at the proper remedies. Those causes
were numerous; one was the expense of the maintenance
of labour, for which reason he agreed with the Hon. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen that a reduction of the taxes which press
more immediately on the necessaries of life would be a
great relief to the operative, and thence to the consumer of
our domestic produce. The introduction of machinery
was, as a Noble Duke had elsewhere justly asserted, among
the concurrent causes. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen
had said much of the free trade principles making the
world trilfuttly on England for her manufacture ; but the
Hon. Member had forgotten that France and America, act-
ing on the restrictive system, had both extended their trade
last year. The increase, for example, of the value of im-
ports into the port of Havre (the Liverpool of France),
amounted last year to 20,000,000 of francs over those of
the preceding year, and the exports of the United States
were 5,000,000 of dollars more last year than in 1628.
Was it not evident, then, that other nations were beue-
fitted while this was injured by the present system ? Wify
should we take the silk of France unless she reciprocally
bound }remit' by treaty to take our cotton and hardware
manufactures in return ? In a word, why should not the
system be made one of bona fills reciprocity, or be revised
and amended?
Mr. COURTENAY was willing to admit, that the
system of determining the value of our exports, by that
called the " official average value," wan not altogether as
perfect as reight be desired ; but it was the most perfect
that he knew of, or, he would venture to say, any Mem-
ber of that House had as yet devised. He had tried one
or two other modes of arriving at a value of our exports
and imports, but found them not so successful ; and he
should be obliged to any Hon. Member who would suggest

a mode less liable to error than that of the official value.
Some artificial standard was necessary, for the difference

of kind and size, &e., of commodities, rendered mere
quantity an inefficient representative of real value. He
would not then enter into an analysis of the Hon. Alder-
man's (Waithman) statements, as a more fitting occasion
would shortly present itself, but would content himself
with contending that increase of exports proved so far an
increased activity of commerce. How could these ex-
ports be made, without an increased amount of shipping,
and of the employment of machinery and labour ? Hon.
Members said, that because the price or rate of profit
of those exports was low, that therefore they were
of no national benefit ; but they forgot that ihz ex-
tent of the market was as the lowness of profits—
that if they wished for high prices, they moat count on
small sales, and vice versa.—(Hear.)—The Hon. Member
for Worcester said that France and America had not fol-
lowed our example in adopting the anti-restrictive system.
Now it was a sufficient answer to the Hon. Member to
say that the Secretary to the Treasury of the limited States
had in his last report asserted the very doctrine which had
been over and over advanced by Ministers—namely, that
the transition from a state of war to that of peace, the ap-
plication of science to machinery, (which God forbid he
(Mr. Courtenay) should denounce or not appreciate), and
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(Hear, hear. )—Then with respect to France, it was a fact
that our exports to that country had increased considerably
last year, notwithstanding the so much-objected-to free
trade system. When last session he addressed the House
on the suhject, he contended that the silk trade, the then
subject of complaint, would be extended by the very mea-
sures which Hon. Members declared would be its ruin ;
and he appealed to the candour of every honourable man
it the fact was not as be had predicted.—( Hear, hear.)

Ald so it would be with other branches of trade, as he
w mid endeavour to prove on anotker occasion.
Mr. ATTWOOD was not surprised that the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen should be hailed as a great autho-
itv tm the state of the nation by Hon. Members opposite
(on the Treasury bench) since his statements went to
bear cut their ill-founded assertions, But the Hon. MVP..
ier had a condition of his own, which went, if sxamin?..,i,
o up-et the very doctrines which he meant to uphold'.
The lion. Member contended that the present free trade
system gave to us the market of the world ; and yet
strangely argued that there should be a reduction of
20,000,000/. of taxes, else we should be driven out of
that market by other competitors.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said he did not specify 20,000,0001'.—bs
only mentioned a large reduction.
Mr. ATTWOOD—No matter, three, five, or ten mil-

Ii )us, be tit, bUM what it might,—it was equally a death-
blow to Ministers. He did not doubt that, according
to the official returns, the amount of exports ap-
pared last year greater than those of the preceding. He
regretted that such documents as these trade accounts should
occupy the attention of the House. If arguments we/a
to be founded on such documents, they should at least he
framed on a less absurd and preposteroas plan. When a
statement founded on them proceeded front the throne—
when his Majesty was made to speak like a Custom-house
clerk—when, in the midst of awful calamities and im-
pending changes, the people, who looked forward with
anxiety to the Throne and the Parliament, were mocked
by statements founded upon such documents,—if the Mi-
nisters intended to alienate the people, and proclaim their
inefficiency to the country, it was impossible for them to
adopt a mare effectual course.
Mr. P. THOMSON observed, that if the Hon. Mem-
ber had brought a just accusation against hie Majesty'■
Ministers a much juster accusation could be brought
against him. He (Mr. Thomson) believed the distress of
the country to be great, though not universal ; but how-
ever great it might be, he coald net believe that a remedy
for it existed in the use of language that must inflame—
(llear,)—or that it could answer any useful purpose to
proclaim any part of the House to be indifferent to the
distress of the people,—(Haar, hear.)—The Hon. Mem-
ber, having described on a former evening his object as
to the depreciation of the standard, the House now knew
how to meet him, and gentlemen most beware how they
aided a plan which was calculated to be a fraud on the
country.
Mr. ♦TTWOOD protested against personal motives
being imputed to any Hon. Member.
Mr. THOMSON did not intend to itnpnte personal
motives.—(Hear.)
Mr. ATTWOOD—If any Hon. Member imputes to
me any measure of dishonesty, it is perfectly false.—
(" Hear," and " Order.")
The SPEAKER requested the Hon. Member to abstain
from such observations.—(Hear.)
Mr. THOMSON must repeat what he Paid, that Le
could not but conceive that a measure which would reduce
the standard of the country was one calculated to effect a
fraud; and he was glad of an opportunity to speak of the
measure, that the House might not be led to adopt
schemes of that kind. The distress occasioned by over-
production was not remediable by legislative enactments,
nor could any retrenchment tut off a very great sum
from the expenditure of the country. A remedy might
be found i❑ a mutation of taxation. A large proportion
of the taxes premed on the industrious classes, whilst those
who were better able to bear them were exempt. The

Hon. Member (Mr. Attwood) bad said that any one who
asserted, as the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Courtenay)
Lad, that we could receive imports from a country which
prohibited our exports, a,serted what was absurd and
dangerous. He (Mr. Thomson) considered, that it was
equally absurd and dangerous to assert the contrary.
Mr. FILER, in reply to a remark of the Right Hon,
the Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Courte-
nay), that the experiment in regard to silk bad succeeded,
observed that from all he could learn, this was not the
fact. He could state that some large manufacturers had
Lecome insolvents.

Mr. COURTENAY explained.
HUSKISSON protested (as we understood)
against going so circumstantially into these matters, on
such a question as that before the House.
Mr. TRANT recommended to his Hon. Colleague (Mr.
Thomson) not to impute remedial measure*, at this period
of distress, to improper motives. The state of the country
should be discussed dispassioaately, without anger and
irritation.

Mr. THOMSON was not liable to the imputation of
ascribing improper motives. He was of opinion that any
attempt to shape the standard. so as to reduce it, would be
in its effects a fraud.—(Hear.)
Mr. WAITHNIAN said a few words in reply.
Mr. ATTWOOD explained. He thought that a per-
severance in the prevent system was a fraud upon the