The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-21 00:00:00

se a
from coalition* and I require
• put to you this question,
that thej°
r
4 a distinct declaration, for if it is intended
tfloati e shall
be a coalition, it is right that the people of
the Seed, should not be taken unawares.—( Hear, hear.) Since
a faeti" Of 1833, the Opposition in this House has assumed
Right ',Ts character. Wi.at was the language of the
myself ir:!ati?nrablo Baronet then? I have been amusing
Nat se
su.'og over some of the speeches that were made in
gate we' 'n and a most entertaining work it would make.
as end Gentlemen professing one thing one time and
Of the at another. The Right Hon. Baronet said
°PPosition of that day that they selected the
People's' that were already practically decided, and that
%dreg sn'inds were made up upon ; but that they dare not
Bepter4 the Ballot, the extension of the Suffrage, the
not en"' Act, or other questions of a vital nature—
la the C; of those questions h.,s been touched upon
The R.'Peeeli which we have just heard read.—( Hear.)
Prospe'ght Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) said, I offer the
io civil continued peace, reduced estimates, improvements
went
or Jurisprudence, reform of ecclesiastical law, a settle-
-11 the tithe question in Ireland, commutation of tithes
tedrgesa_nd, a removal of any real abuses in the Church, and
5.,.°f those grievances of which Dissenters justly corn-
Rtessien I. offer you a steady though very cautious pro-
The Ri the march of improvement.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Radiant Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) is almost
froet-th'easni Reformer in comparison with this Speech
is this Throne Laughter.) There is not a single thing
for it 'Peach, that should induce a Radical Reformer to vote
Itiartaiii.nisrtrtahtiaOni.s calculated to give confidence in the present
I fear in this Session a renewal of those
le the and rancorous proceedings, which have been exhibited
Wait:, House during the last three sessions—proceedings
eye, u&ve lowered the character of this House in the
denee°f, the nation and withdrawn from it the cora-
desire of the people, inducing them to believe that all the
atee' of public men is to obtain office—to hold the seals of
Of et_ Pocket the fees of office—and dispense patronage
tlietfrei; It is fit that the delusion should he dissipated, and
t4ristot, ere bc any who believe that the leading members of the
4nterea-,racY of this [louse are disposed really to advance the
testi%S of the people, tlsat the people should know what the
theat.e ", of the Aristocracy are actually disposed to do for
thee, Rork 1829 we commenced, as it appeared to us,
!Ilse °l;„°f Reform by passing the Catholic Relief Bill. When
NAL " was before the House, the language of the Right
Baronettlstaa: (Sir Robert Peel) was of the most conciliatory
lieus --.oanguage of a similar description was held in the
the 4.75. f Peers.—( Hear hear.) They wisely thought that
Lots ilidatenanee of a particular form of religious belief ought
eajosai any part of this kingdom, to be an obstacle to the
ah eut of any civil office. I allude to this, because it
owepeople the deep-seated working of factious strife, unless the
itta th are allowed a full representation of their opinions
Perloft"e'r ititerests. (Loud cheering.) Ireland at that
and ti; was in a state, if not of turbulence, of extreme agitation,
fore, e Right Hon. Baronet was compelled to yield to the
mesa et. Popular controul.—( Hear, hear.) But the
alto iere was brought forward in this House in such a manner
to earr ad to the belief that any person was sincerely desirous
ether Y oat its operation to the fullest possible extent. And
13' equalY beieved that the HOLM of Peers was animated
lead e sinecl l rsst feeliags.—( Here the Honourable Member
the House extracts from the speeches of the Duke of
'ffeeirigt°h, Lord Lyndhurst, and Sir Robert Peel, to the
fug
.that the intention of the Bill was to secure
DasseQtall equality to the Irish Catholics.) That Bill has been
teatliodp eight years.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
.Are the Irish
barn emancipated ? Are they not at this moment de-
of the. "m the enjoyment of corporate rights in consequence
the -". being Roman Catholics ?—( Loud cheers.) Then, in
thia;,,esent state of this Houee, can Ministers expect to pass
roest Vnicipal Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) The people of England
erne; " appealed to upon this question, and not the Aristo-
sautlecr(Lo.ud cheers. ) it suitable that this question
Whieti been introduced into a speech every other line of
ripa 'night have been written by the most determined and
fratieura's Tory ? (Cheers.) Without an extension of the
4geLise t is not leOssible that this Bill shall pass.—( Cheers. )
money expended in the late elections—the Spottiswoode,
fror!--.,(Cheering from the Ministerial side, and " Oh, 0h,,,
Peoaf" "': Opposition)—had all the same object, to prevent the
e from deriving, any advantage from that Bill. An on.
tar"l'et ( Sir F. Burdett) I observe smiling; an Honourable
aernnenet who much resembled bins was my Representative
eaano Years ago for Westminster—( Loud laughter)—but
t be the same individual, for, alas! the remains of the
1 gentleman were buried in Wiltshire.—( Great cheer-
:44nd loud laughter.) It is often said that there is a
Je ineollgrUOU2 mixture at this side of the House.
sill
Tomes succeeded in 1829 in passing the Catholic Relief
and in 1832 they became conformers, when the Reform
Bit Passed. They succeeded in making- the Emancipation
tha, a dead letter, and it is now their interest and endeavour
of tie fruit should arise ; but really I think on the other side
(Ileacthe House there ie. no very smooth amalgamation.—
~ and I el ter ) One Gentleman was my political
h *
aug_ter)—a.nd we laboured together in the cause
It4tilcal Reform in 1818, 1819. , and 1820.—(Laughter.)
ehad great difficulty in restraining his zeal. —(Loud laugh.
ter) 1
-le brought forward motions in this House for Annual
it`trdareents, °
Universal Suffrage, and the Vote by Ballot. Can
ue U '1)1e that any gentleman who entertained these opi-
tlierts.sotisosu' id now desire that the people should reap no fruit
ern their new charter, the Reform Bill ?—( Loud cheers.)
sei2o,4Yrthe people of England have been deluded to this hour
and I,- erenee to public questions and parties in this House,
nassLat it argues badly for the honour and character of this
arid and' for the peace of society. and the security of life
"alted"VertY• When there is a disregard manifested by
principle Personages for what is called public honour and
there • --(Loud cheers)—Will it, can it, be believedH that
who- at least one person sitting on that side of the House
th 14
the year 1819 represented the Tories of Englandzr.d,
whose greatest monsters. that ever existed in the • 1
Narbstn object was to destroy the people ?—( Loud cheers.)
thate Parties are united in this unnatural manner,. it is a proof
the
ue,, People of England have lost their due weight and in-
Tee-see,in this House, and that the Reform Bill has failed to
the object which its framers had in view.—( Cheers.)
h
de 1 as failed, why have not Ministers the
.courage to
social.° _
rtith alt is impossible to maintain their position
that Bill existing as it does. In this House, as out of
eeitLthe Radical party have ever been desirous of. speakingt
eileueut disguise. We have been accused of lending ase -
ltue rtid to the present Ministry. I have lent them my
e better
assistance frequently-, from a belief that they madeld
4,.Jetter set of Ministers than gentlemen opposite
useful
,
CI that they are desirous of promoting many
; but I contend that the people of England are not to
ptc,e've these Reforms as donations at the hands of their Re-
sea-Patatives but that they have a right to expect that laws
hie" bie,enaetCd founded upon just and equitable bases, and that
tui Ti feudal distinctions disgraceful to civilization will be
Ikka,°l.4"ed•—(Cheers.) In the Address there is no mention
—e of the Repeal of the Corn Laws, or of the law of prime-
(Loud laughter from the Opposition Benches.) L
to glad to hear that laugh—it shows what the people are
ecpuepeotn from those Gentlemen.—( Hear,
Beall hear, hear.)
her Majesty's Ministers to protect the people from
fro 'rots grasp of the Tories—(Hear, hear, and Laughter
eatrnt e tbe Tories)—l do not speak as the enemy of the Exe-
ef-vGovernment ; on the contrary, I wish to be the friend
the Ministers. I hope that the Noble Lord (the Seere-
aarY for the Horse Department) will give us in his speech
relillight some manifestation of his opinions, which may
Throne
us from the gloom which the Speech from the
is calculated to throw upon the Reformers in this
oe'lse•—(llear hear.) The Gentlemen upon the other side
hthe. House have been accustomed in their speeches from the
ar°oe to hold out hopes of liberal policy ; and I know not
pe,ThitheY have managed to delude an immense mass of the
capt;',,e nr this country.—(Laughter, and loud cries of " Oh,
atiehilrrno the Tories, which was responded to by vehe-
to i;` cheers from the Liberal Benches.) Gentlemen seem
the e amused ; but let me ask them how long do they think
whe-Ypould be in office before the people would be freed from
the delusion
? If 1 ask the farmers what do they. expecti from
the
Tories, they tell me " Oh, there's the Marquis of Chasndsoar
kee will give us the Repeal of the Malt Tax ; and there
Peel, he sees all the evil consequences of his mischievous
Currency
Bill, and he will relieve the country by giving us t .et
one-pound notes a ain.—(" Oh, oh," from the Tory. side.) But
voe." not the Hoguse very well know that Sir Roberti
ear.)
Ant not give them the I/. notes again ?—( Hear, hear,
the d° we not all know how adroitly he managed tol prevent'ts
ca4orturssetroyt.(
gig peal of the Malt Tax in 1835. But the speee of this
Hear.
a good Tory speech—it is not the speech of a
Reform
) No Minister determined to go upon a
R\eform with a firm step and an honest mind would
nlatett:i" such a Speech. Believing that the people will never
or thin tile reforms which they need, without the amendment
rn "et,;e Act of 1832, I wish to propose three distinct amend-
oPon the Address the House has beard read.—( Great
tlveeter.
I am sincere in making three distinct amend-
Weak,:,""or wish to deprive Gentlemen of the opportunity of
Nll excuses for not voting' on the three, as they
si'tl if I had put three distinct questions in one
thee--meet. Gentlemen might say to their constituents that
/or/ kwould have voted for the Ballot, but they could not vote
taieufridged Parliaments—or, again, that though they would
fen s'or the extension of the Suffrage, they would not vote
hay '"e Ballot. They would say—confound him, I would
Voted for some of his measures had be put them
wayr
Hear.) The first of those amendments
that this Ilouse embraces the earliest opportunity
Pre• buttiblY assuring her Majesty that it will in the
setiesen.t session take into consideration the state of the repre-
• c,tion .1
PI. "1 the people in this branch of the Legislature with
say et" to the extension of the Suffrage. Now, Sir, Ido not
beelgat we shall have Household Suffrage, but if any Mem-
hass,)l anxious to go for any extension of the Suffrage, I shall
his With me—l shall have all those with me who are
14et°,;Is for Household Suffrage ; and if there be anyt
!ate%`,l'er (and I fear there are but few) who desire to
to a,- the Suffrage still farther, they surely could not objectis,
that amendment amendment such as this. My second amendment.
fitll this House embraces the earliest opportunity of respect
ittlt'l :assuring her Ma'eet • that it will in the present Session
into consideration
coeie the necessity of protecting the people
e .exe •
otin reise of their franchise, by establishing the, mode of
th* •by
1r
a_c,n Ballot. —( Loud cries of " Hear, bear. ') The
°Dean nment is, that this House embraces the earliest
kill
eitaiity of respectfully assuring her Majesty that
Arie't Zll± present S -* take into consideration the pro-
, a
_ls
.. essioe,
je () epealing tl.e Septennial Act.—( Hear.) Now
if se,, thee° t breathings be not carried into effect by Statute,
frtr Ylo
not ,lbtain an extension of the franchise, and more
`t Parliaa lents, and the protection of the Ballot, I be
-
44Y lt is scare el , ossible that the people should derive
her lent. 4 from .t)hePpr-oaceledings of this
.House, and. hope
teet'oa aaJe9t3''s Miaisters will see that their own existence
er-s 'Von these measures, and that they will not oppose
flentments. If they do, lam quite certain I shall soon

see them on that (the Tory) side of the House. I do not
say who shall replace them, but I shall regret the
glorious opportunity which they have lost of immor-
talising their own names, and conferring great and vast
benefits on the community. But as sure as they now sit upon
that (the Treasury) bench, that fate awaits them if they
do not change that policy which they have hitherto pursued.
The Hon. Gentleman then handed up his amendments to the
Chair, and moved that they be inserted in the Address.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH felt it his duty to second the
amendment of his Hon. Friend, because he thought that the
Speech from the Throne ought to display to the House the line
of conduct which Ministers intended to pursue during the Session,
and the reasons which actuated them, so that the representa-
tives of the people should be enabled to weigh those reasons,
and fully consider them. The Speech which they had heard
from the Throne was, as usual, but a mere assemblage of words.
The framers of the Speech seemed to have made it as obscure
as possible ; their whole anxiety seemed to have been to ab-
stain carefully from the insertion of any words which,
by possibility, could raise discussion. No reference had been
made to the evils of the elective system ; however, he hoped that
the Ministers were ready to remedy those evils, and that they
were then prepared to make a declaration to that effect. It
was unnecessary for him to enter into any details of the annoy-
ance and expense of registration under the Reform Bill—as
they had all come fresh from the elections it was unnecessary
for him to state the manner in which the friends of the Hon.
Gentleman opposite had acted upon the advice given by Sir
Robert Peel, nor of the manner in which they had made use
of the Registration Courts for the purpose of harassing those
voters who were on the other side. All those were gross
evils, and ought to have found mention in the Speech from the
Crown. The late elections had shown that the Reform Bill had
been an entire failure.--( Hear, hear, and laughter from the
Opposition.) Those elections had proved that all the evils
of the ancient system were still in existence—( Hear,
hear)---certain people of great wealth had, before the
Reform Bill passed, been able to send persons nominated
by themselves for the purpose of taxing the people, who bad
110 voice in the reduction. The object of the Reform Bill
was to change that system, and to make that which was no
representation a real representation ; but its effect had been
to place the whole of the counties of England in the
hands of the landlords.—( Laughter.) He contended that the
Reform Bill had completely failed in its object, and that that
House did not represent those classes of the community that it
pretended to represent, for in fact the whole of the counties
were no better than nomination boroughs.—( Laughter, and
cheers.) A great cry had been got up by Gentlemen
opposite of reaction, but he denied that there had been
any reaction to Toryism, and he would call their at-
tention in proof of his position to every large constituency
in the country--( Hear, hear)—he would ask them to
look at Westminster, Birmingham, or Leeds, where the To-
ries were left in a miserable minority. A feeling of indiffer-
ence did exist among the people—indifference towards
the leaders of the Ministerial ranks, and that indifference
was occasioned, not by a leaning towards Toryism,
but from a want of confidence in those leaders.

The people now feel that it is not worth while to exert them-
selves. They feel that it is riot worth while to make sacri-
fices for men who will do nothing to relieve them from the mi-
sery, demoralization, and corruption, which have arisen out of
the old system of abuse. Now was the time, at the com-
mencement of a new reign, if Ministers were determined to
take any steps towards removing those evils, that was
most auspicious for their purpose. Upon these grounds he
would support the amendment of his Hon. Friend ; and if he
should press it to a division, upon these grounds he would
feel bound to rote with him.
The SPEAKER then read the amendment, and orders
were given to strangers to withdraw.
Mr. HUME said that he had no hesitation in stating, that
in much that had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman near him
he cordially concurred. He did not think that her Majesty's
Ministers would have shrunk from laying on the table
that statement which the House had a right to ex-
pect, and which the country demanded.—( Hear, hear.)
Why had he supported his Majesty's Ministers so anxiously and
strenuously during the last Session? It was because for so
many years they had professed themselves disposed to
effect those reforms in the Church, and also in the va-
rious departments of the State which were best calculated
to promote good government—and because they had stated
that the moment they had the power to carry these reforms
into effect they would do so. Why had he opposed
the Right Honourable Baronet opposite in 1835 ? Because he
distrusted those with whom the Right Hon. Gentleman acted,
and the professions they made, and because he considered it
impossible, even if the Right Hon. Baronet were so inclined,
that he could carry out those Reforms shadowed forth in his
address. In that address, which was far superior to any thing
which appeared in the speech laid before them that day, he
had stated fairly and candidly his intentions, and he (Mr. H.)
thought that the country would look to her Majesty's Ministers
with great distrust when they found that the great questions of
the Church and Church-rates, and those amendments to the
working of the Reform Bill, which were so essential, were not
even mentioned, noticed, or alluded to.—( Hear.) When his
lion. Friend called on Ministers to state what their real in-
tentions were, and to know whether they intended to carry out
these reforms, which had compelled him to oppose the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposte, he thought he was entitled to some
answer. The situation of the House now was very dif-
ferent from what it was at the commencement of the
last Parliament, when the Right Honourable Baronet was
on his (Mr. IL's) side of the House. The Monarch
was then believed to be unfavourable to the present Ministers,
and to the opinions they held. He was believed also to be
favourable to the Right Hon. Gentleman, and as he himself
declared, he retired possessing the full confidence of Isis Ma-
jesty, and merely in consequence of a majority of that House
being against him, which prevented his carrying certain mea-
sures into effect. On that occasion he acted from a convic-
tion that there was a hostile power in that House, deter-
mined to carry through those reforms which the people
required, and which were imperatively demanded for
the prescrvatioa of good government, and the peace and
security of the country. If the present Ministers wished
to enjoy the confidence of the people, they must pass those
measures of Reform which were demanded—they must pro-
tect the franchise, and enable the people to enjoy the fruits of
their industry under a good government. It was therefore
unfair, now that they had a Court which was understood to
be favourable, and a Ministry which possessed the confidence
of the Sovereign, to withhold such information. They had
a right now to expect from her Majesty's Ministers that
candid, manly, open declaration, whether they intended
to do any thing or not—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—
or what reforms they would carry through. There were se-
veral questions arising Out of paragraphs in her Majesty's
Speech, meagre as it was, which should be answered before
that House could agree to it. He wished to ask the Right
Honourable Gentleman below him what he intended to do
with those questions which be thought so important to be
laid before the House as essential to the welfare and peace
of the country. In the Right Hon. Baronet's speech he had
dealt with the subject with great candour and fairness, and he
had stated the extent to which he would go. and the point at
which he would stop. Let het Majesty's present Ministers do
the same.—(Opposition cheers.) Let the House understand
what they mean—let the country also understand it, and he
had no hesitation in saying that if they were honest in what
they proposed, they would meet with the general support they
deserved. He would read two or three sentences from the
speech of his Majesty to that House four years ago.
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Honourable Member here
read some extracts from his Majesty's speech on that occasion,
in which the attention of Parliament was directed to the state
of the Church, more particularly as regarded the temporali-
ties and maintenance of the clergy—to a change in the tithe
system, and to consider what remedies might be devised for
the correction of acknowledged abuses, and whether the re-
venues of the Church might not admit of a more equitable and
just distribution. He (Mr. 11.) would now ask the
House, after the lapse of four years, during toe discus-
sions which bad taken place connected with the Church,
and those discontents, and those acknowledged. and avowed
abuses which had been alluded to in his late Majesty's speech
—he would ask, had they been remedied, or even fairly met ?
The tithes was the only point of all those connected with
the Church which had been fairly met. The Noble Lord,
the leader of that House, brought in four bills as essential to the
good government of the Church—let him now state
to the House whether it was his intention to renew
those Bills—was it his intention to carry out those reforms,
and reform those acknowledged abuses which he bad said
existed and ought to be corrected.—(Opposition cheers.)
Ought they not now to demand of the Ministers what was
their intention with respect to Church-rates ? No allusion to
the grievances of the Dissenters had been made in the Speech.
Ile (Mr. H.) had supported the present Ministry, and he
hoped to be able still to do so, because it would give him
great pain to see them leave their places ; but he
would ask them on whom did they rely for support ? Was
it on the opposite party ? Certainly not. His late
Majesty had placed the Right Hon. Baronet opposite in power,
but it was the people who had brought back Lord Melbourne
and his colleagues to office.—(Ministerial cheers.) It was
therefore their duty to adopt such measures as would carry
out the reforms which were demanded by the people. What
situation were they now placed in? The people had bailed
vootferthwat would be
House
protected, and by w
the passing of the Reform Bill as the means by which the
representationic h
the
suffrage would be extended—by
the -ded--by ec"lr
would be fairly and honestly given to them.
m.The example
of the last two or three elections ought to have convinced the
Right Hon. Gentlemen that the Bill had altogether failed for
uch or
to 30 40, teow such purposes ; and when be saw the majority of the people
in that House dwindled down from 150
rate at which they at present were—( M laughter f low
the Opposition Benches)—it was because they had a
small majority that he called the attention of Ministers
d that he entreated of
them to follow the object of his H
to the present question, an _
h men, her Majesty's Mnisters
If experience could ever teac
i
onourable F riend.
had bad a lesson read to them. He considered them boundi
n consistence with their original determination when the
8.11
was introduced as an experiment, or a trial as it had been
termed.—( Cries of ..Oh !" and much laughter.) By some
it might be considered a final measure, but it was insult to any
man's understanding to consider it such, or to declare
such a thing.—( Renewed laughter.) No measure could
be declared final in a representative body like that which
was daily moving on and progressing, and he would sty that
that man was a fool who could suppose such a thing.—(Rears
of laughter.) Ile Is as glad to find the Noble Lord below
dissented, because on the introduction of the measure, he had
admitted the necessity of its not being final, and in confirma-
tion of that he had introduced several amendments last
Session.—(Hear, hear.) He would now only ask of
the Noble Lord to extend his vision a little
farther, and see what had been the result Of the late general
elections.—( Hear, hear, from the opposition.) It had been

to overpower the free and honest Suffrage of the people—
( Much laughter from the Opposition Members)—by the most
improper influence ; by intimidation, by bribery and corruption
-( Laughter and cheering from the same quarter)--and he would
say, that the Bill having failed to give that, which Ministers
held out, protection to the voter, that he might exercise
freely and honestly the trust reposed in them, Lord Melbournt
and her Majesty's Ministers were bound now to give there
that protection which they had promised, and the people had
every right to expect. They had now in that House Hon.
Members arrayed in nearly equal numbers, and he would ask
the Noble Lord whether he had acted wisely in advising her
Majesty to make such a Speech as that which was now laid
on the table. The people were entitled to the free exercise
of their rights, and he had seen so many cases of oppression,
and cruelty during the late election, that if another took place
without that protection being extended to the voters, the power
of the present Ministers would be completely annihilated. He
(Mr. II.) therefore, because he was anxious to see her Ma-
jesty's Ministers continue in office, wished them to take up
the question of the Ballot, by which the honest exercise of
the franchise would be protected. Let it not be any longer
left as an open question—let them bring it forward as a Cabinet
measure, and try it fairly before the House. Unless
that measure of vital importance and first of all rearms be carried,
it was in vain for the Right Hon. Gentleman or the Noble Lord
to hope that they could maintain their standing in that House, or
be supported by the country. It had been stated by the Noble
Lord that no constituency under 300 would'be allowed by the bill,
and yet boroughs were at present suffered to exist with consti-
tuencies of only 200 and even 150. His Hon. Friend was
therefore quite right in bringing that question before the
attention of the House, and he deeply regretted that her Majesty's
Ministers did not see, in the furtherance of that question, their
own strength. Upon the people alone they could rely, and if they
took from the people their support election after election their fall
would be inevitable. —(A laugh.) It was because he (Mr. H.)
was anxious to avert that fall that he was anxious to see the Bal-
lot established as well as Triennial Parliaments, being convinced
that short reckonings make good trustees.—( Hear, hear. )—There
were one or two other points in the speech upon which he should
like to have some explanation before they proceeded farther.
Some allusion had been made to the province of Lower Canada,
and he regretted that neither the Hon. mover or seconder of the
Address had thought fit to enlarge en that subject.
He thought Ministers should explain what their inten-
tions were. After the resolutions that had been passed,
tyrannical and unjust as they were, the Commissioners had told
them that if the House of Commons agreed to the resolutions, by
a large majority, the Canadians would yield. He (Mr. H.) and
his friends had told them the contrary, and what hail been the re-
sult? They had excited in that country a ferment never equalled.
He wished to know what were the measures Government al-
luded to in reference to Canada, that that might guide the
House in some degree. There was another subject he wished
to ask a question upon. Her Majesty in her Speech stated
that she placed unreservedly at the disposal of Parliament
those hereditary revenues which had been enjoyed by her im-
mediate predecessor. The House had been led to believe in
the first instance that this included the Duchy of Cornwall and
the Duchy of Lancaster. He hoped it was so, but yet if the
words "immediate predecessor" were to be strictly construed,
it might be supposed that it was intended that they should
be held, during the present reign, as during the last.
He was sure it would be in the recollection of many that when
this was made a reservation, when William IV. ascended the
throne, the utmost indignation was felt by the Liberal party of
the House; and he wished to know whether the Duchy of
Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall were to be held now as
during the former reign ;to be mismanaged--to be plundered
es before. With respect to the Civil List, he was one who
had always been an active promoter of the change that had
taken place last Session. He was one who never wished
to see a sum put down to the account of the
Sovereign, merely to swell that account, which was
not to be applied to his own use. He was not one who
wished to narrow the income of any official, much less the in-
come of the Chief Magistrate of this great country ; therefore
he was willing to join in the answer to be returned to her Ma-
jeety, that the House would willingly provide for the necessary
expenditure; but in saying this the House and the Ministers had a
duty to perform most important to the future interests of the
country. They would have to consider that the settlement of
the Civil List would have to rest on principles perfectly diffe-
rent from those on which it rested in the time of 'William IV.
We were now in a situation somewhat analogous to the state of
things which existed at the time George the Third succeeded
to the Throne, and therefore the Civil List must be settled on
a similar footing to that on which it was settled on that occasion.
The question then arises by what test should they try the pro-
position for the Civil List, and by what rule we should mea-
sure the amount. Her Majesty's Ministers should recollect
that the Civil List was greatly augmented on account of the
alteration of the currency. Indeed, Sir, nothing could be
more unsatisfactory than to look back to the alterations and
augmentations_that took place in the Civil List in the reign of
George 111. —( Hear.) I should wish to grant the most liberal
alowance, but I think that when once fixed it ought not to
b 3 exceeded. The expenses of her Majesty, it is true, are
not now so great as they may be at a future time, or upon an
alteration of her state. But Ido not think that:the practice of
paying debts of members of the Royal Family who have exceeded
their income ought to be allowed. I believe that the pay-
ments of such debts, which occurred eight times in the reign of
George the Third, only led to the incurring of other debts,
and to encreased extravagance.—( Hear, hear.) I hope that
the establishments connected with the Throne will be carefully
scrutinised, for if extravagance be allowed in them, the House
will not be able to give that relief to the people which I am
sore her Majesty is most anxious that we should afford. lam
particularly sorry that no mention has been made in the speech
from the Throne, of any proposed reduction of the expenditure
of our military establishments. lam sorry for this omission, be-
cause it leaves me little hope that such a reduction is intended ;
for I know that when any Ministry has any thing useful in view,
they never aro backward in putting it forward.—( Laughter. )
The Hon. Gentleman, amidst loud laughter, said, " That is
only a little Irishism—a little bull—and therefore excuse-
able.") He had never seen but once, in 1822 he believed it
was, that any good measure in contemplation that was to be
introduced during the session, but it was prominently put
forward in the Speech from the Throne. He wished to
know if they were to have hopes of a reduction of
taxation—of a reduction in the army, either of officers
or men—any reform in the system of promotion in the army
or navy. All these details lie considered essential ; and as
nothing was said in the Speech about relief, he feared there
would be nothing of that kind introduced. The House eug,ht
to tell the Ministers, that the only means of keeping the
Tories from office was by affording protection to their friends.
The Tories were quite pleased with the present state of
affairs—they had done very well at the late election, and
only wanted one more trial of the same means ; but
he (Mr. H.) wanted to improve the laws now, and so defeat
them and keep them from office, for which they longed.__
(Cheers and laughter.) For these reasons be would support
the amendment, though he entirely deprecated the policy
of his friends dividing.—( Great Cheers.) He doubted that
policy, and would state his reason for that opinion.—(No, no. )
The question of the Ballot was not one to be debated by a
side-wind.—(Loud cheers.) The question of an exten-
sion of the Suffrage was one that was of importance
enough to be debate singly. As to the question of shorten-
ing the duration of Parliament, he was not aware that much
more could be said on the question.—( Laughter.) But from
the speech of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) at Stroud,
it appeared there was a quinquineal clause in the Re-
form Bill, so that they might hope for a five years' Bill—
( Hear, hear)—though they could not get one limiting
the duration of Parliament to three years, even that will be better
than none. and we must receive it with gratitude if we get it.
Although he was quite prepared to agree to the great im-
portance of those questions, yet he would ask the Hon.
Member for Finsbury whether he was likely to do justice to
those questions by the course he was taking.—( Cheers.) He
thought the notice of his lion. Friend the Member for the City
of London ought to satisfy the lion. Member for Finsbury.
As to Housshold Suffrage, if nobody else would call the atten-
tion of the House to the subject, the Hon. Member for South-
wark has given notice of a conjoint trio of questions.—( Hear,
hear, and laughter.) Some one undoubtedly would give the
House a fair opportunity of taking the sense of the House
on those questions.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was
on these grounds, therefore, that while he entirely concurred
in the propositions of the Hon. Member, yet he hesitated in
thinking the present time was the most opportune for taking
the division.—( Cheers. )
Mr. GROTE wished to say a very few words on the subject
of the amendment proposed by the Hon. Member for Finsbury ;
and although a portion of that which he eras about to state had
been anticipated by his Honourable Friend the Member for
Middlcsex—',Great laughter)—the Member for Kilkenny—
(Loud cries of Hear, bear, hear, and renewed laughter on
the Tory benches)—be nevertheless felt it his duty still
to say a very few words on the same subject.—( Hear.)
In every one of the three amendments which the Honour-
able Member for Finsbury had proposed, he most
heartily concurred—he ir eant in the substance of these
amendments; and, most assuredly, if he pressed either one or
all of them to a division, he should vote with him, for although
he considered the proposition of them at this moment was the
very reverse of opportune or seasonable, yet he could not so
far disavow the principles he had maintained as to
refuse to support them under whatever circumstances
they might be proposed. If any Honourable Gentleman
proposed the vote by Ballet as an amendment to a Road Bill,
he would support that amendment, however unwise it might
be at the moment to put it.—( Laughter.) But he would put
it to the Hon. Member for Finsbury whether he thought that
any satisfactory evidence as to the real intention of her Majes-
ty's Government could be collected from the fact of their re-
sisting the amendment that evening. No such evidence
could be collected from the mode in which the Hon. Member
put forward his amendments, but even though the Government
might look favourably on the Ballot, or many other of his pro-
positions, yet put forward as they were now nakedly,
without the opportunity of a preliminary discussion,
without a full statement of the case pro and co
vo disposedurable toey
eye,
look
yet att h e either t
mighther o f
n,
he could conceive that even though the Cabinet were
sist the proposition of them on such an occasion as
thinkh e questions
dtuv
ti
yth
tots
re-
the present, and brought forward in such a manner.
For these reasons, interested as he was on all these questions,
but particularly on one of them, which he had the honour of
frequently bringing before the notice of that House ; inte-
rested as he was in the success of all these measures, he would
yet put it to the Hon. Member, whether the course he had taken
seas the most likely to ensure that success.—( Hear.) Although
he could not concur in the propriety of that course, he
agreed fully with the tenor of the hum gentleman's speech
in introducing his amendments, and in the obser-
vations of the other Hon. Gentleman who had followed him.
The most important subject of consideration that Ministers
could bring before the House, and the most pressing of
all the-grievances complained of by the country, was the
state of the representative systern—( Hear, hear, hear)—

not only because it was a grievance in itself, but bechuse
it was the source of other grievances. The result of the late
elections bad fully demonstrated, that without the aid of the
Ballot the representative system would not be sufficient to i
4ustain the present Ministers in power.—( Hear, hear.) Hon,
stood the balance of parties at present in that House. Was it
not true that no measure, no matter how good in itself, would
be suffered to pass the other House unless it was countersigned
'iy the Hon. Baronet opposite ?—( Hear, hear, from the Minis-
terial, and cheers from the Opposition side of the House.)
l'he virtual result of the present system was, that the
Honourable Baronet had a veto upon every measure that
was introduced in that House by her Majesty's Ministers.
This was a painful conclusion.—(Laughter from the Oppo-
sition.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite might laugh, but such a
conclusion could not but be painful and humiliating to him,
and to those who thought with him.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
It was the Conservative principle which was in the ascendant
in this Parliament ; that was the negation of all substantial
Reform.—(" No, no," from the Opposition ; " Hear, hear,"
from the Ministerial benches.) If this result had arisen from
a system of representation which gave to the people of
England a full and fair representation he should bow to
it submissively, however little it might coincide with his
own individual judgment ; but he said that it was not the
case.--( Loud cheers.) There was every reason for asserting
the contrary.—(No, no, from the Opposition—cheers from
the Ministerial side.) He could not conseit to take the votes
of tenants and tradesmen, given under the control of landlords
and customers as the expression of the opinion of free citizens.
—( Loud cheers.) He said that the English public were a
reforming public, and if their sentiments were freely and
fairly represented, that would be the result which would be
maintained. He knew that that would be denied by the Gen-
tlemen opposite, but he challenged them to put it to the test—
to give him any system which would fairly represent
the opinions, he would not say of an extended suffrage,
but of the existing constituency, limited as it was—( Hear,
hear, and cheers)—and there would be returned a House of
Commons very different from the present.—(Loud cheers.)
He did not reproach her Majesty's Ministers with the defects of
the Reform Bill—( Hear, hear)—but if, after the experience
of the last few years, they now held to the Reform Bill as a
final measure, a consummate measure, an unimprovable mea-
sure, they acquiesced in the present distribution of political
power—in a representative system which deprived them
of the power of executing any Reform measure which they
might entertain, unless it had the sanction of the Right
Honourable Member for Tam worth. --(Loud Cheers.)
There was no way of escaping from that position but by
rescuing the voters of this country from a system under which
the Aristocracy had the real control of the representation of
the whole kingdom.--(Loud cheers.) Although, however,
upon the gounds which he had stated he ventured to entreat
the Hon. Member for Finsbury to withdraw his amendment,
it was with the sincere desire that every measure embodied in
that amendment might be fairly discussed and received—
( Cheers)--and the strongest belief that by withdrawing it, the
Hon. Member would ultimately secure his own object.—
( Cheers.) I concur in the sentiment of my Hon. Friend the
Member for Middlesex—(Loud laughter)—l mean for Kil-
kenny, that this is the most unmeaning and unpromising
Speech ever delivered from the Throne—that there is little
for information—still less for hope. There is one remark
which I will make upon part of the speech of the Noble Mover
of the Address, in which he seemed to advert to the probabi-
lity of debts being incurred if liberal provision were not made
for the Civil List—and that is, that I protest against the sys-
tem of paying debts previously contracted by royal personages.
—( Hear, hear.) It appears inconsistent with the rules of
sound principle and morality that if Parliament provide libe-
rally for royal persons, they should not set an example of living
within their income.—( Cheers.)
Mr. LIDDE L said he was one of those who had been al-
luded to by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, and he rose to say
a few words in reply to the charges he had brought forward
of their making statements at the hustings inconsistent with
their speeches in that House.—( Hear.) As to what he had
thought proper to charge in reference to the Ballot, he con-
curred in opinion with those with whom he acted, that a
grosser delusion had never been attempted to be practised on
the minds of the publie.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the
extension of the Suffrage, he, with his colleagues, was pre-
pared to stand by the qualification of the Reform Bill, for
which his party were not responsible, but which, being esta-
blished, they did not wish to disturb. Lastly, as to short
Parliaments, he was decidedly of opinion that that was not
calculated to contribute to public convenience.—( Hear,
hear.) As to the repeal of the malt tax, and the disturbance
of the currency, the Hon. Member was equally at fault on
those two charges, because, as the decision of the House on
the last occasion sufficiently proved what was likely to be the
fate of any Bill brought in for the repeal of the Malt Tax, so
the decision of the House equally spoke in terms not to be
misunderstood of what the result would be of any measure to
disturb the currency. He could well imagine that those
gentlemen who had already addressed the House felt no
little disappointment at the extraordinary barrenness of the
Speech from the Throne on these subjects. In this respect
ha entirely agreed with the House, though he was not disposed
to concur with them in the amendments that had been pro-
posed. At the same time he could scarcely think it possible
for Hon. Members on either side of the House to expect any
other sort of Speech, seeing that the present Government had
been so long in office, and that they had as yet done literally
nothing.—( Much laughter.) The Honourable Member
for Kilkenny (Mr. Hume) had alluded to the Speech
from the Throne in 1835 ; and he (Mr. Liddell) would
also advert to it, but with entirely different feelings,
and he could only regret—(as we undertood him)—that no
similar expression respecting the maintenance of the Esta-
blished Church occured in the present Speech. He could not
refrain from calling the attention of her Majesty's Ministers on
this occasion to their own peculiar position in the House. The
late elections, in spite of all the influences which could be
brought to bear upon them on behalf of the Administration—
in despite of the unconstitutional use which was made of the
name of the Sovereign—( Cheers from the Tory benches)
in spite of the popular and exciting topics, which had been
resorted to by gentlemen now on the opposition side of the
House, who advocated those extreme opinions, to which
one-half or more than one-half of the supporters had thought
proper to pledge themselves—in spite of all those things,
England had maintained her character.—( Tory cheers.)
Ile had spoken decidedly, and he trusted irresistibly, in favour
of Conservative opinions.---( Cheers from the Tories) The
Reform Bill had been passed for the purpose of overthrowing
the Conservative party, and of fixing for ever in their present
places on the Treasury Benches, the framers of that Bill.
But the people of England were tired of agitation, and finding
that the Reform Bill could be made a means of good govern-
ment, they have returned a majority of Conservatives to this
House, and given to Conservative principles a decided triumph.
In Scotland, the Reform Bill opened the constituency to
all parties, and consequently the Ministers had not obtained
a single vote in that part of the Empire.—(Cheers from the
Tory Benches.) It was only in Ireland that they had obtained
a majority upon which they rested for support. Now, what
measures would they be for which Ministers must rest upon a
majority so composed, and obtained by such agency?—( Hear.)
Here being on the subject of Ireland, he would again refer
to the Speech of 1835, and although he did not see in
the present Speech those words promising to protect the
Church, he was glad he found in it no intimation of hostile
intentions towards the Church.—( Hear, hear.) He would
ask the Ministers, and lie could assure them that the country
was looking with much anxiety to the answer which
they might give—(Loud cheering)—he would ask them
whether they were determined to maintain the Protestant
Church—that the fabric of the Church should not be pulled
down by open violence, or the Clergy robbed of their just
rights? They had now the support of a Learned and Hon.
Gentleman, who formerly was in the habit of denouncing the
clergy of his own country. Lately he bad not been so loud in
his denunciations, and had written a letter to those clergy, offer-
ing a settlement of the tithe question—it was a plan full of er-
rors, and one to which there must be many objections, he would
be glad to know if it had been put forth as a feeler, or if it was
sanctioned by the Government? That Hon. and Learned
Gentleman he supposed had been propitiated by the sops al-
ready thrown out to him by the Government. He supposed
that the political Cerberus who keeps the Keys of Office
from his command of so many votes in that House had
already received his sop for the support he gave them—
( Loud laughter, amidst which the Speaker told the Hon.
Member he was out of order.) If he had transgressed any
of the rules of the House, he was sorry for it, and bowed to
the Chair. All he meant was, that the Government had
obtained his powerful support in some way or other. Look-
ing at that support, he would ask, did the Government in-
tend to throw overboard the Church of Ireland—(oh, oh !)
—or were they determined to maintain it in all its in-
tegrity ? It had pleased the Honourable and Learned
Member for Dublin to dissolve his Irish Parliament for a li-
mited time ; that lion. and Learned Gentleman certainly had
a Parliament, and had more power than Royalty, for he called
his Parliament, and levied taxes on his Irish fellow-subjects
at pleasure.—(Laughter.) Was that Parliament dissolved
upon any suggestion or communication from any one connected
with the Goverment, for most undoubtedly he would receive
his quid pro quo for the assistance they had from him? He
trusted the Government would answer his questions—that they
would speak out on the subject, and at once say in answer
either yes or no.
Colonel PER CE VAL rose, and was greeted with loud
laughter. He was peculiarly called upon to protest against
the words " domestic tranquillity" being applied to that por-
tion of the country with which he was connected.—(Laugh-
ter. ) He had the honour of representing Sligo, where mur-
ders were of almost daily occurrence. He therefore wished
to keep it open to him, by protest, that upon a future occasion
lie might animadvert upon the disgraceful state of that county.
Under present circumstances, he would not disgust the House
—(Loud laughter)—by entering into details of these harrow-
ing and disgraceful murders, which were the offspring of mis-
government.—_( Laughter.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, it is my duty to offer any
explanation which the Speech from the Throne may require;_
but I must at the same time say, while I am ready to afford
these explanations, that in respect to the Speech itself, I wil-
lingly admit the reproach, if it be a reproach, that the
Speech was framed with a view to prevent a course of ad-
verse discussion. I admit the fault, if it be a fault,
that we did not wish en the first day that Queen Victoria has
opened her Parliament, in the divided and balanced state of
parties, to bring forward questions which might make it necessary
for gentlemen, in vindicati©n of their own consistency, and in the
promoting their own opinions, to create angry discussion and to
carry that discussion further into division. ( Hear.) We did
think that upon such an occasion it was desireable that the
Queen should receive, if not the unanimous, at least nearly the
unanimous address of this House, and that the expression ofour
reliance and attachment to tier person, should not be marred
and disfigured by the mingling of those questions upon which
opinion is known to be divided.—( Hear, hear, bear.) Sir, if

this be a fault, if this be a crime in the Ministers, we are guilty
of that crime. Now, Sir, to come to my own per-
sonal consistency which the Honourable Memb. r
for Finsbury, who moved this Amendment, was
pleased to attack—with respect more particularly to the
speech I made in the year 1835—he quoted a sentence which
I think did not bear him out in that reproach. lie stated that
by maintaining in our Address certain principles and cci tain
measures, we should avoid the reproach of pusillanimous
weakness on the one side, and of inconsiderate rashness on
the other • and, Sir, what is the proposition which the Ho.i.
Member for Finsbury makes ? That we should have put in
the Speech from the Throne—Ballot in the first place,
extension of Suffrage next, a shortening of the dura-
tion of Parliaments next, the_ consideration of the Corn

Laws next, and then the Law of Primogeniture.--( Hear, and
Laughter.) Why, then, Sir, if we had introduced all these
topics, inconsiderate rashness would have been the proper
praise to bestow on Ministers.=(Cheers.) Sir, the circum-
stances of 1835 are quite different from the circumstances in
which we are now placed.—(Hear' hear, and cheers.)
The circumstances then were that Lord Melbourne, who was
at. the head' of the Administration, and engaged in framing
measures of Reform, was dismissed from his Majesty's coun-
cils, and when Parliament met he stated what the extent and
purpose of his measures would have been. Sir, were there any
of those measures so exceedingly different from those that
we have subsequently proposed? One was Municipal Reform
in England. We proposed to introduce Reform into the
Municipal Corporations of England ; have we not kept that
pledge a--(Cheers.) Is it not now the law of the land,
Sir? With respect to another of our measures, it is said that
we ought to have removed the grievances under which the
Dissenters labour. I say that the Registration and Marriage
Acts are a sufficient redemption of that pledge. Another ac-
cusation against us is that we have not removed the abuses
which have impaired the efficiency of the Church establish-
ment in this, and lowered its character in the sister country.
—( Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, with respect to the first part of
this question, which relates to England, I do say that if the
Honourable Member for Finsbury, and those who agree
with him had given us their advice in a shape less difficult to
adept, they would not now have anything to accuse us of.
The Hon. Gentleman has asked me with respect to why I
have not proceeded with a measure with respect to pluralities
which was introduced two years ago ? Sir, lam ready to pro-
ceed with that measure, and would have carried it through,
but for the strong opposition which was given to it by the Hon.
Member himself at the time. Sir, it is my intention to pro-
ceed with that measure, adhering to the same principles in
which it was befdre founded. With respect to the measure
relating to Church-rates, we brought it forward and supported
it to the best of our abilities in this House. It satisfied the
Dissenters, while it removed from them a grievous burden, did
not impair the revenues of the Church Establishment ; and
that measure met with great opposition—so great, that it
would have been useless to have gone on with it with any
hope of success during the last Session. Why, what was
said then?—(Hear, hear.) Why, it was said by the
Honourable Member for Kilkenny and others—you arc bad
tacticians—you have attacked the Church—it was moat impo-
litic to do so; and similar language was the language made
use of by gentlemen who now complained that Ministers did
not go far enough. I could show the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny, not only from the printed newspaper reports, but from
other documents, that he himself said it was impolitic to at-
tack the Church. Why, did we not know when we differed
from the heads of the Church that we were encountering a
formidable opposition? We knew that quite well, but still we
thought that that was a measure which, if we could have ob-
tained the favour of the country in, and could have got it
carried by popular feeling, would have settled the question in
a way that would have been satisfactory to the Dissenters,
and which we thought could not hare been injurious to
the Church.—( Loud cheers.) The Honourable Gentleman
opposite asks rise a question.; undoubtedly he has not been a
Member of this House before, and I really cannot conceive
what part of the country he has been residing in.—( Loud
laughter.) He asks ins whether we mean to support the
Church Establishment? Whv, Sir, I have never ceased
to say I would support the Church Establishment.—(Much
cheering.) And I dieconsider, and do consider, that if you
mean to maintain the great foundations of the Church Estab-
lishment, the more you can do to prevent discussions and
bickerings between the Church and those who differ from its
doctrines, the more secure will that Church be—( Applause)—
and that though men differ from it in doctrine—though they
differ from it in opinion—yet that they will still regard that
Church with respect, and look upon it as a means of fostering
and promulgating the principles of true religion.—(Cheers. )
These are not the views entertained by our opponents, and
therefore it is impossible to say, the measures brought forward
last year with respect to Church-rates can be brought forward
now with success. There has been much misunderstanding
upon that subject, but a Committee which shall look into that
question will enable Parliament and the country to decide upon
it, and quit the country of a question which has divided
Churchmen and Dissenters with g,reat bitterness, and caused
the most intolerable injury to the Church and religion generally.
Sir, the Hon. Gentleman who moved. the Amendment has
brought forward questions which have been dwelt upon by other
members and which he asks us whether we will support.
He has mentioned the Ballot, the extension cf the Suffrage,
and Triennial Parliaments.—(Cheers.) He has brought
these forward in three separate amendments, avowing that
they formed part of the same measures. He has put his
powders in three different papers— (Tremendous laughter)—
but they must be considered as forming part of the same me-
dicine.—( Increased laughter.) lam not now, Sir, going
into the arguments bye which each of those measures
may be supported or opposed ; but I will, with the leave
of the House give an explanation of my views with regard to
the position of the Reform Act arid its present operation.—
I cannot, Sir, be ignorant of the attacks and the injuries to
which the Reform Act has been subject. I admit that in the
late elections corruption and intimidation had prevailed to
a very lamentable extent—(Most tremendous cheering)—
that with respect to some parts of the Reform Bill, there are
means of making it a great vexation to the bona fide voter—
(Cheers)—and that with respect to the registration of voters,
in particular, great amendment may be made.--( Cheers.)
But these are questions upon which I consider Parliament was
always bound to be alive, and see that the Reform Bill did not
suffer any essential injury—that any error in detail made in
the commencement, might be afterwards remedied.—( Cheers. )
They are questions totally distinct from those three—the
Ballot, Universal Suffrage, and Annual Parliaments, which I
can consider as nothing else but a repeal of the Reform Act.
_(Cheers.) Well, am I prepared to do that? I say, cer-
tainly not.—(Loud cheers.) With respect to the Registra-
tion of Voters, I am ready to bring forward (or rather my
Learned Friend the Attorney-General) the Bill which was
frequently under discussion in this House, and am prepared
myself to give every facility for the introduction of
the Bill brought into this House last year, in respect to the
payment of rates ; but I do say, that having now only five years
ago reformed the representation, and placed it on a new basis,
it would be a most unwise experiment now to destroy
that basis to form a new suffrage, to give a new mariner of
voting, and to look for other and securities fur the repre-
sentation of the people.—( Loud cheers.) At least, for myself
I can take no part in that experiment.—(Continued cheer-
ing.) And I must say, liable as I may be to the somewhat
harsh term applied by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny,
to those who think the Reform Bill a final measure, What are
the circumstances under which I consider that I am bound so
to regard that measure? When it was brought forward, it will
be generally recollected that the cry was that it was too large,
too extensive, and radical Reformers were, upon the whole,
much better pleased than moderate Reformers with it. But
it was the opinion of Lord Grev, stated in the House of Lords,
and by Lord Althorp in the Commons, that it was safer to
make a large and extensive measure of Reform, and that those
who thought that a smaller measure would be preferable,
might have this reliance, that in bringing forward
that measure, it was intended to be a final measure.
Now, Sir, do I say any such nonsense as would entitle me to
the appellation which the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Kilkenny has mentioned 7—( Hear, hear, hear.) Do I say
that the people of England arc to be debarred from making
any alterations in the Reform Bill, or from repealing that
measure altogether?--(Hear, hear.) Certainly not. The
people of England may of course, by their representatives,
repent it if they think fit. But I think it would not be
wise in them to do so.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) I think
If you were so soon again to alter the principles of your repres.mta-
Lion, you would destroy your Constitution.—(Loud cheers.) I
ay that I would take no part in 'that re-construction.—(Hear.)
I say that, having been one of those who brought forward the
Reform Bill, it will be impossible for me to take part in those
large measures of re-construction which the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Wakley) proposes. It would be a breach of faith with
all those who took part in the framing and passing of the
Reform Bill—if I, who acted with them," with the under-
standing to which I have referred, should support this
amendment. But if the people of England are not satisfied
with that course—if they will insist upon the alteration of the
Reform Bill, let them place others in her Majesty's councils,
who may think it expedient and right to repeal the Re-
form Bill.—( Hear, hear.) But let them not call on rue to
do that which I think unwise and inexpedient,—and which I
would not be justified in doing, in justice and honour to those
who acted with me.—( Hear.) The Hon. Member who
brought forward this Amendment has asked me whether
there is to be a coalition ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now Sir, I
can only answer that I know nothing of a coalition. .1 can-
not say whether or not a coalition is intended by
other's ; but if so, I know nothing about it.—( Hear, hear,
and cheers.) But the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. has rut
some questions which relate to the Speech from the Throne,
and rot to the amendment. With respect to the Duchies of
Lancaster and Cornwall, to which one of his questions applied,
I think, Sir, that the words of the Speech are sufficiently plain.
Her Majesty surrenders the hereditary revenues of the Croivn
precisely in the same manner as thev were surrendered by his
late Majesty—and no further.—(ll-ear from Mr. Hume and
others.) I think that there were evils in the management of
those fiefs of the Crown. I think there were evils in the
management of the revenues arising to the Crown from them,
occasioned by the circumstance that the expenditure cams less
under Parliamentary observatie' than the other revenues aud ex-
penditure. Sir, we propose to get rid of both these evils by pre-
ducine: all the accounts relative to the management of these revenues,
and by laying- before Parliament all in!orinat ion connecteJ with them,
and the manner in which these Duchieshavebeen conducted. I think
if we had not taken this course—if we had proposed a total sur-
render of the Duchies it would hardly be an aAvantage to the
Crown, because we must take it for granted that the great ma-
jority of this House seeing that her Majesty on ascendiog the
throne, has not derived that personal property which I be-
lieve nearly all her predecessors from the time of George the
Second had derived—having lost the revenues of Hanover, which
had been enjoyed by the Kings of England for the last 190
years. I may safely say, that seeing that reduction of the
Crown revenues, it would not have been the province of this
House to take them without some fair and honourable corn-

peesation.—( Hear, hear.) It would not have been right tt
put her Majesty in a worse condition than any of the Sove-
reigns that went before her, and I think it rather better that
we should keep to the ancient settlement of these Duchies
than to have a sum of money in lieu of them, by which the public
would not have been gainers, and unnecessary innovation .would
have ensued. With respect, still farther, to the Civil List, it is the
intention of my I).:ght Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, and of which he has already given notice, so early as Thurs-
day next to prol.o e ell the papers to a Select Committee. Before that
Committee, the whole question of the Civil List will come, and
they will be in possession of all the information that can be given.
I have no doubt that that Committee will meet it with perfect
fairness, and with no disposition to withhold what is due to the
henour and dignity of the Crown ; and I trust we shall be able to
show, on our side, that we do not propose any useless expenditure,
or that cannot be justified by the reasons we shall give. fhe Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last referred to some undue influence said to
be exercised by her Majesty during the elections without any par-
ticulars on that sul:ject. I can only give a general denial to his
general assertion. I hope, also, he is equally prepared to deny
all those rumours which we have seen in the public papers,
that he was the bearer of certain letters in which the landlords
desired—( Ministerial cheers)—that he would report to them
the conduct of their tenants, and whether they did or did not
comply with their just wishes on the subject of the election.—
( Vehement Ministerial cheering.) lam sure he is too well
cognisant of the Constitution and resolutions of this House not
to know that such interference is extremely unwarranta-
ble, and after his allusion to undue influence,
I must say that I am sure he never was the bearer
of such a letter.—(Much laughter.) The Honourable
Gentleman made another allusion to Ministers, and said that
he was not surprised that there was nothing in the Speech,
because the Ministers had done nothing. lam not going to
detain the House by recounting to the Hon. Gentleman all
the measures for which we claim some approbation, they
being acknowledged to be of • considerable use to the country.
I will refer the Honourable Gentleman to a speech made at
Glasgow, by the Lord Rector of the University there.
That Right Hon. Gentleman then enumerated a great many
measures, which had passed through Parliament within the
last few years. In future he would not ask the Hon. Gentle-
man to read the history of the last few years, but would refer
him to the opinions of his Leader. Instead, then, of re-
proaching us with having done nothing, he must give us cre-
dit for doing a great deal, otherwise he will at the same time
contradict him whom he wishes to follow in this House. I
have now, Sir, gone through all the details of the Speech.
Taere is ene however upon which I have not said anything—
_upon the paragraph respecting Canada. With respect to
that matter, I will only say that it is a subject which well de-
serves the gravest consideration of Parliament. I have to
thank the House for its attention to me during the time I
have thought it necessary to address them.—(Cheers.) I •
will give my most decided opposition to the amendment
of the Honourable Member for Finsbury. I trust that
Hon. Gentlemen will accept of and act upon the advice
which has been tendered him, and not divide the House.—
( Cheers.) 1 hope lie will not persist in dividing the House,
but let them agree to send tip an unanimous address to her
Majesty from the first Parliament of the reign.
Sir R. PEEL then rose and said—l have frequently, Sir,
on occasions like the present, taken the opportunity of ex-
pressing my opinion both when I was in office and when I was
in opposition to the Government, that it was not convenient on
the first day of the session to call upon Parliament to give direct
pledges on any subject or measure.--( Hear, hear.) I ex-
pressed that opinion, because I thought it unfair that a Go-
vernment being naturally and necessarily in possession of the
measures which it meant to propose, should invite Parliament
who had not the same cognizance, which they had of public
measures, after probably only the deliberation of two or three
hours, to express an opinion upon matters of the very
deepest public importance ; and the opinion which I expressed
on former occasions I still retain.—(Hear, hear.) Had the
Throne been now filled by his late Majesty, a Sovereign ad-
vanced in years, I should have maintained the same opinion.
Had it been thought desirable to call upon Parliament for a
pledge on any particular question, I should then have urged
the absolute necessity, in point of justice, of reverting to the
more ancient practice, and giving to all those, who were so
called upon to express an opinion, at least the opportunity
of deliberating for forty-eight hours on the measures ;
but consider the multiplicity of measures which are necessa-
rily alluded to in the Speech from the Throne. I think it
infinitely better for the Crown to content itself with indicating
generally the measures which it means to propose, and so to
word the Address in such a manner that we may be enabled,
on the first day of the Session, to concur in the Address with-
out any compromise of our opinions. And if I should havo
felt the force of those opinions under ordinary circum-
stances, I do feel, considering the circumstances under which
we are called together, considering this is the first occasion on
which a Queen, at an early age, has addressed her Parliament,
it does appear to me that the opinions to which I have re-
ferred acquire extraordinary and peculiar force.—( Hear, hear.)
I cannot refer to the concluding paragraph of that Speech, in
which her Majesty states that the early age at which her Ma-
jesty is called to the Sovereignty of the kingdom, ren-
ders it a more imperative duty, that, under Divine
Providence, her Majesty should place her reliance
upon the cordial co-operation of a Parliament. I cannot
hear those expressions fall from the lips of the Queen of this
great empire, addressing her Parliament for the first time,
without anxiously seeking the means of concurring in the Ad-
dress which is presented in return to that Speech, and render
to her Majesty nothing else but the assurance of my loyalty and
desire to afford that co-operation.--( Cheers.) I give to that
address, therefore, my acquiescence—my entire and us quali-
fied acquiescence—( Loud cheers)—because I must say, that
independently cf my desire on this occasion to avoid
the opportunity of contentious debate, still less the ne-
cessity of an amendment, the Address is so worded
that he must be very critical and fastidious indeed who could
find fault with it.—( Hear, hear.)* At the same time, it is
right I should say, 1 reserve my opinion upon every measure
alluded to in that Address.—(Hear.) I cautiously abstain
from giving any pledge to any of the measures addressed to
Parliament from the Throne, or to say to which any reference
is made in the Address. I disclaim any acquiesence is the
facts. I cannot take them for granted, and I necessarily,
therefore, abstain from either giving any opinion upon them
or pledge on the subject.—(Cheers.) 1 shall, therefore,
acting on the principles 1 have avowed, and looking at the
terms in which the Address is proposed, have the greatest sa-
tisfaction in eying it that acquiescence which I thought, till I
had heard the speech from the lion. Gentleman opposite,
would probably have been unanimous.—( Hear, hear.) It
would be apart from the consideration of the circumstances to
which I have referred—it would be apart from any beneficial
effect, now to enter upon the points contained in the Speech.
The affairs of Canada—the question of the Civil List—the
state of Ireland and the questions connected with it—how de-
sultory and how ieeffectual must be that debate, which attempt-
ed in one discussion those various important considerations.—
( Much cheering.) So far as the Civil List is con-
cerned I refer to no other matter than that which
the Noble Lord has referred to in his speech. We are
called upon to express no opinion upon that, but I don't
hesitate to say, it is gratifying to me to find it is not meant to
abandon the revenues that are derived from the Duchy of
Cornwall and the Duchy of Lancaster.—( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord classed those two Duchies together, but yet
I apprehend that there is a difference between the two in
point of law. The revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall are
held by the Crown as a trust, whereas in reference to the re-
venues of the Duchy of Lancaster there is a more direct and
immediate control over them. I don't notice that distinction
just now for the purpose of establishing any inference
that they ought to he practically treated as separated, but I
rejoice that those ancient revenues are to be maintained.
Upon the particular measures to which the Noble Lord has
adverted, I beg to reserve my opinion till they have been mere
fully explained.—( Cheers.) I am called upon to decide
whether I shall vote for an amendment which has been pro-
posed by the Honourable Gentleman. That ameadment
appears to have been proposed under the impression that her
Majesty's Government were composed of what the Honourable
Member called squeezable materials.—(Laughter.) I have
not the slightest doubt that the main object of the amendment
was not any hope that the House would acquiesce in it, but in
the hope that by a conjoint squeeze of those squeezable ma-
terials, he should get some satisfactory statement from his Ma-
jesty's Government upon the points on which he was anxious
to obtain information.—(Laughter.) I rejoice that the
Noble Lord has defeated the expectations of his Honourable sup-
porter.—( Cheers. ) For, with respect to the Reform Bill, and
the other measures alluded to by his Honourable supporter—
(Laughter)—the Noble Lord has not shown himself of such
squeezable materiels as the Hon. Gentleman supposes. -(Laughter. )
he has declined taking any one of the powders of the Honourable
Gentleman—(h creased laughter)—notwithstanding the gra-
cious manner in which he offered them.—(Continued laughter.)
And the Hon. Gentleman must, he thought, see that so far as the
Noble Lord is concerned, he has entirely failed in praueing
what he naturally thought would be the result.--( Great laughter.)
The Hon. Gentleman, I apprehend, will persistin his amend-
ment, and take the sense of the House upon it. I know per-
fectly well that the Hon. Gentleman considers that the coun-
try ought to be aware of the opinion of its representatives
upon the questions he has enumerated, and will compel them
to record them. I must say, however, that the Hon. Gentle-
man's amendment falls very far short of his intentions, for it
embaces neither the law of primogeniture or the Corn-1aw......„
( Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Kilkenny,
ten, has no right to quarrel with the Address, for he himself
says that since 1822 he has never known any good measure to
be introduced in an Address. The Hon. Gentleman turns
round and asks how can you account for the majority baying
dwindled from 120 to 30? Don't let them make you believe
that it is attributable to intimidation or corruption—(Oh, oh,
from the Ministerial Benches.) Can you believe it possible
that intimidation and corruption have produced this? Is that
the opinion you entertain of the Reform Bill?—.(Cheers from
the Opposition.) Do I hear in 1837, after the predictions
that were formed of the satisfaction it would give and thee, public
confidence it would receive, do I hear it now declared teat of all
grievances the Representative system is the worst?—{Cheers from
the Opposition.) Do I hear it now aeserteelt that the country is
groaning, for that is the expression, ineiter the representative
system. Groaning only could express the degree of disatis-
faction with which the people of England regarded in—(Great
laughter, and Hear hear.) This ;,'t is that has changed the Pub-
lic mind : this it is that alreris the public with fears of new
revolutions—( Loud cheoss)--I take the expressiitn of the
Noble Lord who told u', that the country could not afford to
have a revolution ever year. —( Continued cheering.) What
must the public—tiae respectable public—not those who are
under the base inP:uence of 'corruption and intimidation—what
insist the people
The argu-
tili:ll:, as to the House of Commons ? They
had reasoa to believe, from the declarations of all parties,
that the Rcfc,eni Bill was to be a final measure.
accomplished, was—" We
vsentativo system was a
relent addressed to our anxieties when this great change
in the repe
in
not order
only totthpartevtheenyt newdemands."e
eepncestoitr'p' curse—the th e evil under which they labour,'
smAaantikdsefinctoshV,e
l'e;:juetantteghleal
tteitxtie: