The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-22 00:00:00

refused to vote for Mr. H. Grattan in opposition to the desire
of his landlord. Sir W. Somerville told Mr. Smith that lie
/vas hound to exonerate himself from the charge, Mr. Smith
said, if he had wanted to do such a thing he should not
have applied to such a blackgii.rd. Mr. Smith did not pro-
mote an investigation to clear his character, nor did he
indict the man, as advised by Sir W. Somerville and Lord
- Killeen. Another individual to whom the clemency of the
Crown was extended was a person of the name of Finlfy.
He had been convicted of four er five offences, and his sen-
tence ran thus :—Six months' imprisonment for the first
offence, six months for the second, six months for the third,
and one for the fourth, that heing a case of common assault.
This man, however, was selected as a fit individual to have
extended to him the clemency of the Crown, and his sentence
was remitted by the Lord Lieutenant without his having con-
sulted the judges on the subject.—(hear, hear.) The lion.
and Learned Member next referred to the jeopardy in which
the lives of the clergy were placed in Ireland. Ile knew a
clergyman who, from the apprehension entertained, could not
effect the insurance of his house against fire. Another clergy-
man, in a southern county, who had effected a policy of insu-
rance on his life, was obliged to consent to a proviso being
written on his policy to the effect that if the said assurer should
be killed, or should die by popular violence, or by assassina-
tion, the policy should be null and void, and the moneys paid
be him or on his behalf on account of the assurance should be
forfeited. Surely, if there ever were a country on the face of
the earth in which it became the Government to administer
the laws firmly, but temperately, it was Ireland. The lion.
and. Learned Gentleman then proceeded to detail some cases
in which the interference of the Lord Lieutenant had not,
as he would contend, tended to the prevention of crime.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had stated that crime
was diminishing in Ireland, and this the Noble Lord de-
clared was in consequence of the conduct pursued there
by the Lord Lieutenant. The Noble Lord had on a for-
!net occasion referred to the calendars as a proof of the
ti-anquil state of the country. Now nothing could be more
fallacious than the calendars; and he would go the length of
saying, that the more rampant crime was in any country the
less would be the number of crimes on the calendar ; for the
more intimidation prevailed the more difficult would it be to
obtain information respecting criminals. But now let them
but look to the state of one county for the last year—let them
look to the county of Tipperary, which had been already al-
luded to by a Noble Friend of his. In one year there were
no less than 1,567 persons committed for different offences.
The number of persons charged or made amenable were
these :__For murder, 54 ; shooting, with intent to murder, 20 ;
assaults, with intent to murder, 73 ; manslaughter, 51 ; as-
sault, with intent to commit an unnatural crime, 21. Of the
latter offence, he remarked that it was one he had never heard
of before in Ireiand, and it only showed how crime was in-
creasing in tl-,at unfortunate country. To show what was the
state of tranquillity that was so much boasted of, he would
.state ...he crime in Ireland for one week, ending February 11,
as Stated in the hue and Cry, and what were the rewards of-
fered for the discovery and prosecution of offenders:—
On the 12th of January, house burning, 301.
Same day, house burning, destruction of provisions, &c., 401.
Same day, six houses attacked by armed parties, and rob-
bery of arms, 401.
Jan. 17, house attacked, and murder committed, 1001.
Jan. 24, murder of one man, and severe beating of another,
501.

Jan. 25, murder, 501.
Jan. 26, attacks on two houses, robbery of fire-arms, and
house set on fire, 501.
Same day, another murder, 50/.
Jan. 27, attack on a church, 40/.
Jan. 28, attacking a man and his wife, 501.
Same day, placing stones on the road, to overthrow the Cork
mail, 50/.
Feb. 7, attack on a party of soldiers by fifty persons, and
fracturing the skull of one of the soldiers. 50/.
Same day, another case of murder, 50/.
Same day, attack on the house of a clergyman, 501.
Thus there was a catalogue of crimes increasing day after day,
.and week after week, and yet the Noble Lord spoke of the
tranquillity of Ireland in the face of such facts.—( Hear, hear.)
As to the clemency of the Lord Lieutenant, let them only see
'what was the effect of it in Cavan. Ile had three letters all
stating the same facts—that houses had been attacked and
shots fired into them, and this for the purpose of making them
register. One of these letters stated, " intimidation and ter-
ror are the order of the day ; the priests are the cause of the
violent practices."—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition Mem-
bers.) As to the Noble Lord, he had utterly failed in the
reply he had attempted to make.—( Hear.) He could not
avoid now referring to the case of Lord Milltown, who had
been recently made a magistrate for the counties of Dublin
and Wicklow. That Noble Lord had formerly been a magis-
trate, but was dismissed from the commission of the peace be-
cause he had taken part in some tithe meeting. His dis-
missal took place while Lord Anglesey was Lord Lieutenant
in Ireland. His Right Honourable and Learned Friend, if he
recollected rightly, was first promoted under the administra-
tion of Lord Anglesey ; he then obtained a silk gown for his
' efficient prosecution of the anti-tithe conspirators ; Lord Mill-
_ town had since become a member of the Catholic Association,
he had made some very strong speeches there (to give them no
arsher name), and immediately after he did that he was re-
stored to the commission of the peace.—( Ilear, hear.) He
by the to prove the charges which had been adverted to
nit Noble Lord, if a Committee were given to him to inquire
Into those charges.—( Cheers from the Opposition Members.)
A message was brought from the house of Lords that they
,bad agreed to the Registration of Births and Marriages Sus-
pension Bill.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN observed that the lion. and
Learned Member who had last spoken had addressed the House
for no less a period of time than an hour and three quarters,
and yet there was not one word in that long speech that bore
upon the question then before the House.—( Hear, hear.) The
question for debate was whether Municipal Corporations were
to be granted to Ireland ? lie had now to consider the argo-
,tnents of their opponents ; these might be placed under a few
tends. One set of gentlemen contended that corporate institu-
tions were not necessary for good government in any country,
and they instanced Birmingham and Manchester to sustain their
arguments. By others it was contended that they should,
by passing this Bill, transfer a monopoly from Protestants
to Catholics, and especially that it would increase the power
of an individual possessed already of enormous power in Ire-
land. It was also contended that they would be merely
schools for agitation, and those persons considered the new
corporations would be the means of severing the connection
between the two countries and the subversion of of the Irish
ll'rotestant Church. As far as he could understand the ques-
tion, this was the sum of the reasoning against which he had
° contend. If the argument were as to central administra-
,_"on, or the local administration of affairs in the cities and
"es in Ireland, that, he admitted, would be a most im-
portant point to discs. According to this Bill the functions
abithcrto performed by a complicated system of boards would
evolve upon those local bodies who had the best opportuni-
ities of knowing how they ought to be performed. He alluded
i? the Maintenance of the poor, and the regulation of institu-
°lts for their relief, every thing that affected the education
°' The people, every thing connected with public works, and
other such objects. The Noble Lord the Secretary for Ire-
;and had placed this question upon its true footing when he
Ire-
to the House that it was not a question whether they
should have central or local authorities—whether they
would abolish or reform corporations—hut whether, after
wipassing a Bill by which the people of England were per-
tted to exercise the functions of self-government, that House
tllas to turn round and declare to the people of Ireland that
Goey alone were unfit for the exercise of these privileges.—
~4r.) No analogy could be drawn between a system of
ofernment based on self-election, and one based on a rea-
Zllable representation. The I lon. Gentlemen on the opposite
e a the House were not justified in supposing that if the
Catholicsr of Ireland possessed unqualified power they would
ri,ll.lse to select and appoint Protestants equally and indiserimi-
ately with Catholics. Every day's experience proved the
Contrary Bear, hear.) With respect to the argument
eti against the Bill, that it would increase the power of the
y
titiriourable arid Learned Member for Kilkenny, he approached
that ssubjesubject with some delicacy, but he was bound to say,
if the conduct of that Honourable and Learned Member were
as reprehensible as was represented by his enemies, that
W°4la farm no just reason for disfranchising all the constitu-
of Ireland, and depriving them of their municipal rights.
':1!ong series of misgovernment had reduced the public mind
"1, Ireland to a state which compelled the people of that coun-
r) to place unlimited confidence in the honour and ability of
'‘!t_ro who had offered himself as their _champion and the ad-
117._ate of their just rights, and would it not be unwise, un-
4tirthY, and unjust to make the fruits of their own injustice
oument for its continuance ?—( llcar, hear.) The course
,v
p0,.21 the Conservatives pursued necessarily augmented the
de"7 of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny ; it in-
dirt many men to associate and co-operate with bins who
L not approve of some of the principles which the Hon. and
earned. Member avowed, but who still had one cause in cons-
ttot.\vsth him, viz., a determination to resist the degradation
se lofir country.—( Ilear, hear.) Another argument made
by the opponents of this Bill was, that it would tend to
in,e7n the connection between the two countries. Slender
tbil:7l(rdoaimltu4 that connection be if it could be endangered by
of municipal institutions to Ireland. This true
teal connections between the two countries was their mu-
terest:f connection
and if that House consented to disturb that in-
pre,es .n.,1 to add insult to injury, thought but forty Irish Re-
utliontatives voted on the last occasion for the repeal of the
the noin-louble that number would be found to declare that
cogrd _ u!act of the united Parliament was such that Ireland
Ptoee longer endure the Legislative Union.__( Hear.) The
kiePedieteoflreland had made up their minds—they were deter-
Wato, have their just rights—they sought no more—they-
r.etie;,enotbecontent with. less.. What.liacf that House done to
that th_ them from the odious impost of tithes ? Did they suppose
that ii"): could make the people of Ireland pay tithes ? If
atod 1,77 e was determined to uphold the Protestant Church—
,egt- time he feared had arrived when they could no longer
mode;iiet c.ould only be done by reducing that Church to
a,, jmensions, and taking away from it the character
us
eoaseZt asecntlancy.--( Hear, hear.) What had been the
ragitrron Le of the course which the Conservatives took with
NIT to this question? It had created the Association in
.a*--( Ilea
la hear.) If they rejected this Bill, did they
%tot%
_euth at their idle denunciations would suppress that As-
-8,?
attitude
Cheers.) The public mind in Ireland stood in
owe 1710
con
fiewhich it took up in 1792 ? Before he sat
the lasauft la not help expressing his sincere satisfaction at
ittesitr'„ ge of the Noble Lord who brought forward this
sitt s•--( Laid .1,
t; a a the nu,. cheers, He knew not what might be the
-,°ll of the ~_4,stere, but he was truly delighted at the declara-
ffepared to"s.ouni. Lord that his Majesty's Government was
present ,:aeritc or fall by its suecess.—( Loud cheers.) If
have
countrA.,i inlistraticas were in real danger, let them appeal
a noble) 0 decide this great questions. Thev could not
r ePportunity of making that appeal than upon the

simple question whether or not they were right in offering to
Ireland free institutions.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. YE SE Y rose merely to substantiate the statement
made by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bandon; viz., that
the Lord Lieutenant of the Queen's Cettnty refused to recom-
Mend the appointment of Mr: Cassidy to the magistracy. The
reasons assigned by Lord De Vesci were that he believed Mr.
Cassidy to be the clerk of his brother, who was a distiller; and
further, that Mr. Cassidy took an active part in rescuing
cattle which were taken under a distress for tithes. He
thought that upon this very circumstance the Govern-
ment, in making this appointment, had violated one of their
own rules to the Lord Lieutenants of counties not to recom-
mend any one who was engaged in distilleries.—( Hear, hear.)
But there were other grounds upon which his ( Mr. Vesey's)
relative had refused to recommend this individual. This very
person had been convicted of an aggravated case of outrage
on the occasion of a tithe seizure, for which he had been brought
before the Court of Petty Scissions and fined la After this
a second seizure was attempted, when the servants of Mr.
Cassidy behaved in a most riotous manner in the public roads,
attempting to rescue the seizure. As one, therefore, who by
himself and his servants had been concerned in two cases of
outrage against the peace, his relative had thought himself
fully justified in refusing to recommend him to the commission
of the peace. The Noble Lord opposite had said on a former
occasion that Mr. Cassidy had been recommended by many
most respectable gentlemen ; he (Mr. Vesey) did not pretend
to know who those gentlemen were, because the Noble Lord
had abstained from naming any of them ; but this he could say,
that there was not one gentleman of any rank, station, or pro-
perty in the county who had not felt himself greatly outraged
by this appointment.---( Cheers from the Opposition.) If they
would do justice to Ireland, let them give peace to the Irish
peasant ; but then give him substantial justice—( Cheers from
both sides)—but then give him an equitable and just provision
to secure him from penury, starvation, and want ; let them put
him in a position to share the benefits of the State--(Marked
Ministerial cheers)—let them arrange a just and equitable
settlement of the tithe question, which should take the burthen
from the poor peasant and lay it on his landlord ; let them
abolish corporations and do away with party feuds—( Marked
cheering)--let them give to all parties a firm ground of secu-
rity in the State, consequent upon a just administration of the
law, and a well-restricted clemency.
Mr. E. L. BUL WE R said—There was one peculiarity in
gentlemen who, as practical Irish residents, had spoken that
night on the opposite side of the House: they had thrown over
their predecessors, and had thought it more prudent and po-
litic not to tell the Irish people that the Protestant Church
was omnipresent in abuse. I now begin to perceive what is
meant by the expansive principle of the Establishment. It is
not content with the little circle of tithes and hierarchies, but
now it expands with a vengeance, and swallows up a score or
two of corporations.--( Laughter.) They say one crime can
only bo defended by another, and your way of defending an
unequal ecclesiastical Establishment is by stifling the power
of the people in equal political privileges. When the man in
the crowd had his hat stolen, another obliging gentle Man
cried, " Since you have lost your hat, I'll just make free with
your wig." You rob the Irish of their Church Reform, and
then by way of making it up to them you run away with their
corporations.—( Hear, and laughter.) Oh 1 but the Associa-
tion has sprung up, and Mr. Pigott has been put into office,
and these are arguments against corporations. Why, what
a subterfuge is this l There was no Association last year, and
yet last year you refused the Municipal Reform.—(Cheers.)
Sir, there was an Association in Birmingham, nay, all over
England—this quiet, loyal England—for obtaining Parlia-
mentary Reform ; and in the meetings of these Associations
language as violent, sentiments as democratic, opinions as much
in favour of Ballot and short Parliaments, ay, and of the
voluntary Church principle too, were uttered. How did you
dissolve these Associations—by what spell did they wither
away—by what rites did you lay them in the grave 7 Why,
you granted the Reform. Oh I but says the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, if you cannot put down the Association, why do you en-
courage it—why do you mix it up with the Government—why
do you put Mr. Pigott into office? And is it possible that I
heard that from the Right Hon. Baronet ? Why, who con-
demned the Orange Lodges more than lie did ? And was
it not one of the first acts of his government to put into
office the Deputy Grand Master of the Orange lodges, the
Hon. and Gallant Colonel the Member for Sligo ?—( Hear,
hear, hear. )—Compare the Orange Lodges with the Associa-
tion ; both are bad, both are symptoms of constitutional dis-
ease : but one is open, universal; the other is secret, exclu-
sive. Why did you mix up the Government with those
Lodges? Why did you encourage them ? Why did you put
your Mr. Pigott into office ?—(Cheers.)—Oh I but you will
not take power from one party to give it to another; and then
you talk of contests and animosities of party in every town.
Is this argument honest ? If so, why did you never apply it
to England? Are there no parties here? Did you not
transfer power from one party to another, when you passed
the Municipal Bill for England and Scotland ? Parties
The word parties is more applicable to this country than it
is to Ireland, for here at least there are two parties nearly
equally balanced in point of rank, property, and numbers ;
but when I look to Ireland I see indeed one party, formi-
dable from its rank, intelligence, and the long habit of lordly
domination. Where is the other party ? I see the people.
Ireland, so long united with the most enlightened country in
the world, is not in the nineteenth century fit for the institu-
tions which, on a far more gigantic scale, grew up amidst the
feudal ages, and which even the Roman despotism accorded to
its dependent towns.--( Hear, hear.) Then, not contented
with disguising a people under the title of a party, you view
that people through the medium of a single man, hour after
hour ; and when we are to legislate for Ireland you declaim
against the Learned Member for Kilkenny. Grant him all
that you contend for, and what then ? Are we to legislate for
a nation, or are we to legislate against a man ? Why, is it
not you who tell us that you will never be daunted by the phy-
sical or moral array of numbers—that you laugh to scorn allu-
sions to the power of millions? and yet, from the height of your
superfluous chivalry, you call upon the great British Parliament
to present to Europe the ludicrous and dastardly spectacle
of doling out justice to a people, according to our fears of an
individual.—( Cheers.) I neither deny nor vindicate the
power of the Learned Gentleman. I don't tell you that if
you pass this Bill—nay, if you do the amplest justice to Ire-
land—you will crush the power of the Learned Gentleman.
So long as there is gratitude in a people—so long as there is
eminence in intellectual superiority—so long the Hon. Mem-
ber for Kilkenny must be a leading authority with the Irish
people. But the power of a man is for his life, the effect of
legislation is immortal. Train up the people to think for
themselves, to act for themselves, to govern themselves: on
the constant stage of local legislation give them that rehearsal
of their liberties, and you will raise a state of society in
which individual agitation cannot again attain the same exag-
gerated power. You may not weaken the Learned Gentle-
man, but you may render him the best of his race—go on le-
gislating against the people, and you legislate for a perpe-
tuity of demagogues.—( Hear, hear.) Whenever two countries
are united together, one more powerful, more civilised than
the other, the evils to the less powerful country are ob-
vious—she loses national independence—she loses na-
tional legislation—the polish and wealth of her neighbour
will drive away her resident aristocracy. This is what she
loses. What ought she to gain in return ? The blessing of
the wiser laws, the firmer order, the more liberal institutions
by which her neighbour was governed—by which her neigh-
bour prospers. If she does not do this, she loses all, and she
gains nothing in return. And to this total in the balance-
sheet of benefits you wish our legislation to arrive.—( Hear,
hear.) It was formerly the custom in Royal houses to
unite the young Prince, when he began his letters, with a
kind of flogging-boy—that is to say, a boy who was flogged
whenever his. Royal Highness was in fault. If the Prince did
well, he had his cakes and sugar-plums ; if ill, they hoisted
his double, and his Royal Highness was flogged by proxy.
Precisely the connexion between England and Ireland.—
( Cheering and laughter.) Ireland has been the flogged
boy to England, and always on this principle, that England
is to have all the sugar-plums and Ireland all the flogging.
Why, what did you all agree to give to England 7 Municipal
reform. What did you all agree to give to Ireland ? The
Coercion Bill. —( Hear, hear.)— You say you are willing to
correct abuses ; you prove your sincerity by giving up the
Orange Corporations. But that is no longer enough—it is
no longer enough to correct abuses in the administration of
power—the time has come when you must admit the people to
a share of the power. This is where you stop short. You will
do away with the flogging, but you still wont give the boy any
of the sugar-plums.—( Bear.) Do not rely on the smallness
of our majorities. Do not let that thought actuate your
friends in another House. Recollect this Parliament is your
own creature, not ours.—( Hear.) Recollect, still more, that
a majority of one-carried the Reform Bill. And be convinced
that if you consider the majority we may have on this occasion
small, the majority that the Right Honourable Baronet will
ever get in any Parliament, while he professes the same poli-
tical doctrines, will not amount to the half.—( Hear.) But I
have is high authority on this head. Mien the Right Hon.
Baronet yielded to the necessity of Catholic Emancipation,
what was a principal argument ss ith him ? He said, " Ido not
go only by numerical majorities. I have examined the con-
stituencies on both sides of the question, and I find the larger
constituences on one side, and the smaller on the other ; and
I do—what ? I yield to the force of public opinion." Will
he now abide by his own test ?—( Hear, hear)--the test
he established as a guide to his conduct in the most memo-
rable crisis in his brilliant political life ? Why, what has he to
set against the multitudes of Birmingham, Manchester, Sal-
ford, Nottingham, Sheffield, Wolverhampton, and the metro-
politan districts ?—( Cheers.) Oh, let him now look to mere
numerical majorities—let him compare the constituencies on
either side, or let him once more yield to the force of public
' opinion ?—( Cheer.) You have had your turn—lreland has
been in your bands—you have exhausted upon her all your sys-
tems of treatment—you never gave us up the patient until you
had found the disease incurable. Is it not justice—is it not
logic, that we should now have fair play for our experiment,
which after all is only to leave a little to nature? Be just
while you have it in your power to be generous. Recol-
lect how often Ireland comes before you, always a suitor, and
always a rejected one, beginning every session with hope, end-
ing every session with disappointment.—( Hear.) You say
these grievances are not practical ; their fruits are prac-
tical—discontent, excitement, Catholic Associations, pas-
sive resistance, the fears of the rich, the combinations of
the poor. Practical, indeed, must be the es ils that result
from keeping a whole people eternally vibrating between the
excitement of suspense and the exasperation of despair.—
( Loud cheers.) Sec the state of England at this moment :
her trade prosperous, her commerce increash,e, peace abroad,
tranquillity at home, no foe to menace her safety, or curb her
power. Look at her gigantic colonies, covering a new quar-
ter of the globe. Look at that vast Indian empire, which she
governs almost with the easy hand of neglect; and close be-
side her see that fatal neighbour, whom you have proved that
you cannot crusii as a slave, and whom you will not suffer us
to conciliate as an ally.—( Hear.) We are weak, we are dis-