The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-28 00:00:00

the value of the benefits obtained, and the diminution of Pqor-
iates, were counterbalanced by the hardship of its pressure on
the poor. All parties appeared agreed that an inquiry by a
Committee was desirable ; the only question was as to the
extent of that inquiry. He should support the proi,oitien of
the Noble Lord opposite.
Sir S. WHAL LE Y also supported the Noble Lord's
amendment,
Sir R. PEE L said the eetil titiestien at lone lay within the
narrowest tompess, atid he could express his own opinion upon
it As well or better in five minutes than in two hours. The
whole question turned on this—What would be produced on
the public mind by the course of the House on this occasion ?
—( Hear, hear.) The terms of the one motion might differ
very little from the terms of the other. The inquiry to take
place in pursuance of the one, might differ little from that in.
stituted under the other. The real question was, what would
be the construction put upon the vote of the House by the
public—by those for whom the law was administered—by those
who administered it? If it were intended to repeal the new
Poor-law Act to prejudice its operation, their course was per-
fectly clear.—(Hear, hear.) If, on the other hand, it were
intended to maintain that Act, to give the moral aid of tl e
support of that house to those who had to administer the
very difficult and important functions entrusted to the Poor-
law Commissioners, the House ought to be most exceedingly
cautious how they did anything likely to create in the public
mind a suspicion that the House had doubts upon the subject
of this measure, or wished to shrink.from the responsibility of
allowing its operation to be continued. The great object of
the change in the Poor-laws was not to save expense. He
should attach very little importance to the benefits derivable
from the measure if they were confined to a mere diminution
of the poor-rates.—( Hear, hear.) When he heard it stated
that a saving of one, two, or three millions a year, had
already been effected by this measure, he was far from under-
valuing so important a result, feeling, as he did, that no
reduction in unwise expenditure could be made without
doing a vast good to the labouring classes—( Hear, hear)--but
the great object which he had contemplated in advocating
the measure was to improve the moral condition of the
people, to give them a feeling of independence, to open be-
fore them the prospect that by industry, combined with good
moral character, there would be a certainty of their being
able to provide, in an independent and honourable manner for
their own subsistence and that of their families.—( Hear, hear.)
Having given to the measure his cordial support, he must say
that he had hitherto heard no facts stated of a nature to induce
hint to repent of that support, or incline him to take any step
likely to prejudice the operation of the measure.—(Hear,
hear.) It was not in the course of things to expect other than
that the alteration in the law,the attempt to do away with abuses
so long and firmly established, would have to encounter a vast
deal of opposition, not only on the part of the many persons
interested in the maintenance of the old abuses, but on the part
of many well-meaning persons, whose compassionate feelings
would be excited by instances of individual hardship or suf-
fering.--( Hear, hear.) From these different parties a great
deal of opposition to the measure was inevitable ; and if
those who were entrusted with the management of the mea-
sure had had reason to believe that the support of one
branch of the Legislature was taken from them, their diffi-
culties would be aggravated in a tenfold degree; and it was,
therefore, most essential to avoid doing anything which should
excite in the public any suspicion as to the efficacy of the prin-
ciple, or that the House meditated its retractation.—( Hear,
hear.) It was impossible, in the effectual working of this
measure, to avoid many cases of individual hardship ; and it
was most desirable that the nature and extent of these cases
should be accurately ascertained, in order that it might be
seen how those cases could be best remedied, and also to
ascertain by what mode of mitigating the severities of
the operation of the Act, its general efficacy might be in-
creased.--( Hear, hear.) In reference to the propositions
before the House, while he greatly respected the motive
which he was sure had operated with his Hon. Friend be-
hind him in bringing forward the original motion—a mo-
tion which he felt convinced owed its origin to a sincere de-
sire on the part of the Hon. Member to benefit ,those who
were so well entitled to the sympathy and earnest considera-
tion of Parliament—yet he could not help differing entirely
from the Hon. Gentleman as to the impression which that
motion was calculated to produce on the public mind. He
did not hesitate to say, and he was bound to give his frank
opinion, whatever unpopularity might attach to it—he did not
hesitate to say that being, as he was, uncontroverted from his
Original conviction as to the principle of the measure, he felt
that it was entitled to a full and fair trial. The evils which
it had for its object to remove were of the most disastrous cha-
racter, not only to property, but to the independence and moral
condition of the poorer classes, and he should, therefore, give
his support to the amendment of the Noble Lord, which seemed
best calculated to maintain the principle of the measure, and
tended to increase its efficacy,
Mr. ROEBUCK was one of the early supporters of the
measure ; and he begged to assure the Hon. Member for
Southwark that he voted for it with a perfect knowledge of
what he was doing. He adhered to the principle then laid
down ; and had heard no argument or evidence adduced in
this House or elsewhere, calculated to make him now shrink
from the principle which he recognised and openly avowed at
the time when the Bill was originally introduced. Many
Hon. Gentlemen who professed a great regard for the la-
bouring classes had impugned this Bill as a cruel and inhuman
Bill. He should give it his support—not because it had di-
minished the parochial expenditure—but for reasons which he
considered of much greater importance. There were two
classes of persons who were included under the name of the
labouring classes : these were the industrious poor,
and the poor who were not industrious.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) Now he believed that the interests of the
industrious poor were deeply involved in this Bill, and it was
as a friend of the industrious poor that he would vote for the
maintenance of the principle of the Bill. He had been ad-
dressed personally and called on to explain how he could con-
sistently support the principle of self-government and at the
same time the principle of centralization to be found in the
measure under discussion. He would reply, that nothing was
easier. He divided the Bill into two parts—first, there were
the regulations which it provided, and next there was the
machinery by which they were to be carried into effect. He
was prepared to support the principle on which the regulations
were founded. There were two difficulties before them.
There was the formidable one of any man being allowed to
suffer from want; and there was the great difficulty of making
such a provision against want as would not have the effect
of destroying the industry of the population.--( Hear, hear.)
He wished to relieve want, and in doing so to avoid
generating idle habits.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He thought
they ought to give relief to all who really wanted it, but not
in such a way as to induce them to neglect the means of pro-
viding by honest industry against a state of destitution. With
this view he would draw a distinction between the classes re-

ceiving relief. There were the old and impotent poor, and the
industrious and able-bodied poor. Now, he had no personal
knowledge of the fact, but he had received some account from

his constituents, of whom he had made inquiries on the sub-
ject, in which he found a contradiction of the assertions made

this night, and on the former night of the debate, for his con-
stituents told him that in their neighbourhood a large body of
the old and impotent poor were maintained out of the house
( Hear, hear.) He believed that to be the principle of the
13111. He hoped that the poor never would be taken into
the workhouse indiscriminately ; but he conceived it to be

quite necessary that the able-bodied poor should receive
their relief in the workhouse.—( Hear, hear.) He had now
a few words to say with respect to the machinery of the Bill.
Some of the Honourable Gentlemen who had spoken on this
subject would make them believe that the question of relief
was one which solely interested those persons in the parish
who gave relief to the poor belonging to that parish. He for
one, would resist this view. He would say that the poor be-
longed to the nation. The provision for them was a national
concern, and it ought not to be left to any locality to say whe-
ther they would relieve the poor or not. It was a principle of
the State that none should die of want, and he would not

yield that to any locality whatever. Ile therefore thought the
Legislature had done wisely in creating a set of Commis-
sioners, who would exercise the necessary control to enforce
certain fixed principles, while they left to the locality to decide
with respect to the particular persons who should receive re-
lief. In conclusion, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would
oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Berkshire.

Sir.JAMES GRAHAM said, having taken an anxious part
in the original discussions on this measure, were it ten times

more unpopular than he believed it to be, he should be ashamed

of himsellfn if, on the present occasion, he shrunk from taking
his full share of any odium that might attach to its supporters.
He had stated his opinion as to the general policy and the
particular enactments of the Bill, and the result of his expe-
rience was, that he not only approved of the general policy,
but he considered the particular enactments indispensable.
fie did not think this a fit opportunity for discussing the po-
licy of the Bill. The inquiry as proposed by the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Home Department appeared to
him satisfactory. An idea prevailed in the county he repre-
sented that no good would result from an extension of the
measure to his district. lie differed from his constituents in

that respect, and he was convinced that by an inquiry into the
subject—but it must be a full inquiry—he was convinced, he
said, that if they went into an investigation of the peculiar
circumstances of his county, his constituents would be satisfied

that the measure would be found most salutary there as well
as in other places. lie should give his most cordial instead

of his reltn;tant support to the amendment amendment of the Noble
Lord.—( Hear, hear.) •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER should
he ready on the part of his Noble Friend, feeling the
immense importance of an unanimous opinion, to adopt the
suggestions thrown out, if lie did not feel that, for the
purpose of purchasing that unanimity, he was endangering
the principle itself, if not within the House, most as-
suredly without the walls,—(Hear, hear.) He considered
that danger to be much lessened by the course which they
proposed to take. His Noble Friend, when he originally in-
troduced the measure, took his stand with perfect reliance on
its justice, its policy, and expediency. He believed that the
point which remained for consideration was whether they

;vere disposed to go into a full and fair, and just inquiry into
the operation of the Bill. With regard to this part of the s'irb-
ject, he begged to say that it was not noW the intention of his
Noble friend, nor was it his intention, in moving the amend-
rpent, to exclude from the inquiry any one question that was
not directly oppo'ed to the principle of the Bill.—( Hear,
hear.) He would try the case by the question put by the
Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir J. Graham.) He said it was a
question whether this Bill ought to be applied to the northern
parts of England, and he wished to know whether that was a
matter which might be considered and discussed in this Com-
mittee. His reply as that that Was really within the fair scope
and object of the Ccrnmittee of his Noble Friend ; and so far
from seeking to elude such an inquiry, he believed that the
result would be as favourable as the result of the whole inquiry
would be favourable to the principle of the Bill ; and that in-
stead of shaking the confidence of the people in the adminis-