The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-30 00:00:00

Galway would visit the country and study the people, and
then give the house his opinions, because they would then
be entitled to greater weight than now. It was a question
that required great study, and in going to Seivia he would
advise him to go there without prejudice in favour of any
party, and with his mind a perfect blank on the subject,
bearing in mind the words of the inspired writer, that " all

Christians to power so
to be their enemy.
Hon. members should remember that
Nlahomedan population in India, and
England ruled over a long as every Christian was incited
should, therefore, becautious
Turkey was one which involved
the very existence
be-
lief that the question of
of
their race in that empire. (Hear,
hear.) He had been twitted with supporting the Italians
in their struggle for
liberty,
how they encouraged the
and opposing the Christian
population of Turkey
le
in
inappropriatelikea than the comparia,n.
h
The two peoples effort. (Hear, hear.) But
nothing could be
amor d nothing in common, and, therefore,
the same rule
could not be applied to them, The Turks
were the landowners in Turkey ; they were one-third of
the population,
if not more; and they, in fact, held
the same position
which the Saxons did in Eng-
of
the
invasion. The Turks, the con-
land at the period
itpiray
s remained Mahomedan ; while the
quering race, had
Greeks, the subject
race,
had always remained Christian;
and it was that which
constituted the whole source of the
differences in Turkey.
If it were not for the differences in
religion, the Easternquestion
would soon be settled. But
the very surest way to throw the Christian population back
would be to adopt the policy recommended by his hon.friend.
No one had more energetically denounced the shortcomings
of the Turkish Government than himself; but he must say
nothing could
be more unfair than to keep perpetually de-
nouncing it, and
to withhold from it all words of encourage-
ment. He made the fullest allowance for the unexampled
difficulties in which the Turkish Government was placed.
He ventured to say never before had a government such
difficulties to contend against. There were two policies which
might be followed with respect to Turkey. The one was a
policy directed to the undermining of the authority of the
Porte by everyday rendering government more difficult in
the country ; the other was a policy which tended to
strengthen the Porte by inculcating the necessity of in) prov -
ing the condition of all ranks of the Turkish population.
That was the policy which had been pursued by her Ma-
jesty's Government, and he ventured to say that not a single
instruction had ever emanated from an English Minister at
variance with that policy. He regretted very much that
the noble lord at the head of the Government was not in his
place that evening. The noble lord had been the most con-
sistent, the most eloquent supporter of the policy which
ho had humbly shadowed forth. He believed that,
if hereafter any part of the noble lord's foreign policy
deserved the approbation of mankind, it would be
his policy with respect to Turkey. (Cheers, and cries
of Hear, hear.) These opinions of his were not hastily
formed ; he had advocated them ever since he had the hon-
our of a seat in that house, and they had been formed long
before. Ho willingly admitted that the Christians in Tur-
key had much to complain of, but at the same time their
condition had been greatly improved. In the Government
of the Porte there were some very able men, while the
Sultan most earnestly desired the improvement of the con-
dition of his people; and, though he might be young and
inexperienced, still he was a Prince of great ability and
energy. He fully believed that the time had come when
the Christians in the East would have their condition im-
proved, provided only they hearkened to good advice, and
did not permit themselves to be ensnared by evil counsel-
sore. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MAGUIRE ventured to assert that, so far from Par-
liament having spoken too strongly on the subject of the
abuses prevailing under the Turkish rule, it had not spoken
strongly enough. He, therefore, thanked the hon. member
for Galway for that able speech, in which he sho wed up the
monstrous abuses still prevailing in Turkey, despite the in-
terposition of the English Government. The Under-Sec-
retary of State had asked what would happen if the Turks
were driven out of European Turkey; and he declared that
in such an event the Greeks and the Catholics would anni-
hilate each other. But in independent Turkey, where the
religious feeling was much stronger than in oppressed
Turkey, as well as in independent Greece, the Greek and
Catholic
and, ther pop
oreul if theato lived upon the best possible terms ;
ef,
should have rest of Turkey were liberated, he
no fear for the result. Any pro-
gress that Turkey had made was not owing to the
efforts of her own Government, but to the energy of
the Greek population. He quoted from Lord bart's
recent despatch to show that Turkey was in asp bad a
state now as she was more than 20 years ago, The internal
faculties for the transport of mechandise had not been im-
proved, and it was only now that she wanted another loan
loan that her former promises were renewed, with no better
guarantees for their being performed. Her income tax was
an abominable system of robbery, the collection of it being
made so as to save the rich man and fleece the poor man.
The Christian population of Turkey was oppressed in a
manner that ought not to be after the amount of English
money and blood that had been expended in the defence of
that wretched and effete Government, which ought to be
swept back into Asiatic barbarism. No doubt Turkey was
sick and languishing, and the blow would soon arrive that
would annihilate her or send her back to her native bar-
barism. The Turk was not changed; he was the same as
ever, and it was the duty of this Government to compel the
Turkish Government to fulfil their promises. He denied
that the present head of that country was a financial re-
former; and the hon, gentleman said that the Christians
were oppressed in every part of Turkey where there were
no ambassador or consuls.
i M. &. 8R172.101J12, i... prof .pooch, spoke or the rottcn
and effete state of Turkey, and he urged a reversal of the
policy of this Government towards Turkey, so as to give
greater protection to the Christian population. He con-
demned that portion of Earl Russell's despatch to Mr.
Lumley at St. Petersburg with regard to the bombard-
ment of the Christians in Belgrade by the Turks, that
the Christians, and not the Turks, had forfeited all claims
to sympathy from the Christian countries of Europe.
The
of he
hel Government of this country, while extending the
hp to the provinces of Southern Italy, did not
appear desirous of lending any help to the struggling
Christians of the East. (Hear, hear. ) The House had
already heard of the extraordinary double report of Mr.
Consul Skein; he took the first report of that gentleman,
on the 4th August, to be the true transcript of his feelings;
while
the he re garded his second report of the 20th August to
be echo of the instructions sent to him by Sir H. Bul-
veer. (Hear.) It seemed to him that the beautiful picture of
an Axcada which was drawn by the Under Secretary for
Foreign Affairs was a delusion--one of those mirages of the
desert which, instead of proving real, turned out to be ficti-
tious. He trusted that in the future policy of this country
the cross would be thought more of than the crescent.
Lord H. SCOTT read several passages from the report on
the state of Turkey, to prove the cruel wrongs which were
inflicted on the Christian population ; and contended that
the hon. gentleman the Under Secretary had failed to shake
the evidence which had been adduced by the hon. member
for Galway to prove the incapacity of the Turkish Govern-
Theymn had hoard lately of the prisons of Naples ; but
on the testimony of Mr. Consul Abbott, at the Dardanelles,
the prisons of Turkey were many degrees worse. The lan-
guage of Mr. Abbott was, that the prisons of Turkey were
in the last degree revolting to humanity, and that the heart
must be cold whose sympathies were not awakened on be-
holding the interior of those dungeons. His own experience
went to confirm this testimony. What could be thought of
administration of justice in a country where the
mur-
derer and the relations of the murdered man were all chained
together and dragged down together for many miles to.
the
give
evidence? Then with regard to slavery, so hateful in
eyes of the people of this country, he had
himself
a seen
steamers on the Nile with slaves on board, and this traffic
Was actually carried on under the authority of the Turkish
to throw
Government. He did not mention these things
difficulties in the way of her Majesty's Government, but to
induce them to urge upon Turkey the performance of her
solem promises, (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN said the hon, member for Southwark
had ad asked what this discussion would lead to. He hoped
o "'sequence of it might be to prevent the necessity of
had more discussions of the kind in that house. This debate
"ad arisen, as had been properly stated, in consequence of
certain transactions which had occurred in Servia, The
Foreign Office of this country had taken, a certain course in
consequence of those events which had the effect of bring-
ing to th;
—8 count certain Servian gentlemen, senators of
that count Country
rY.--reen of eminence, he supposed, at home—
who were appealing to members of Parliament. and forward.
warding paruphleta to them, requesting them to make an ape
peal to that on se —a° against the course taken by the Foreign
Office. That was the origin of the discussion. He regretted
it, because they were iming the debating society for the
whole world. (Rear, hear.) The first convention of France
had brought odium upon themselves by assuming to be the
orators of the human race, and they seemed to be getting
into the same position. hat was it that was brought be.
fore them for judent ? It seemed that a Turkish pasha,
having had comma.
" ofthe fortress of Belgrade, took it into
his head to bombard the et That was an outrage repu-
diated by everybody ; it was not tolerated even in war, and
it had been eery
goy' by the Duke of Wellington that it was
not justified by strategicfracas movements. But, in consequence
sat a , the pasha bo e
the fortress of Belgradewo
.bo The eventwell had been followedmber by a
meeting of the representatives of the Great Powers at Con-
stantinople, and with the exception of England and Austriathey were willing that the fortress of Belgrade should
be
razed. The honourable member for Southwark was there-
fore not quite accurate when he spoke of Turkey beinga
asked to give up the fortress. What was demanded was
that it should be razed and to this all the Powers
had
agreed' except Austria and England. When Servia, k
gained her independence, it was on condition that lur -ey
should have seven fortresses there ; two had been abandoned
but five remained) Whiehwere still occupied by Turkey, one
of which was that of Belgrade. What use was it to Turkey?ef
Thurks had no territory there, nor within 200 miles
it. BTlgrade was a most important site for commerce, having,it
one front to the Danube and another towards the Saaveh*a
stood in the fork of those two rivers ; but what securityd?
merchants against being bombarded by some future pasha The Turks, instead of razing the fortress, were going to
tend it; they were clearing away houses, and a largo part
of the bank of the Danube was to be sacrificed for the
esake
of fortifications. In whose interest could this be ?
for
tainly not for the Turks, who were incurring. great expense
occupying the fortresses. The result of the arrangement
bad been that no Turk was allowed to live in Servia
except
in the fortresses. The noble lord at the head of the Govern-
ment was, he thought,but the only first-class statesman in
Europe who believed in the advancement of the Turks;
the fact could not be got over that the evidence of Chris-
tians against 314°1)2%1w:is was not received in courts of Jaw.

wen axe liars." The Servian Government were fortunate

in obtaining the services of the hon. member for Galway as
their advocate, and means had been taken by the Servians

for giving publicity to their case which the Turks did not

possess, or did not care to trouble themselves about. The

history of Servia as given by the hon. member required cor-

rection, from his having been greatly deceived in respect of
the facts he had stated to the house. The hon. gentleman

(Mr. Layard) then gave a hasty sketch of the political

history of Servia from the beginning of the present cen-
tury up to the present time, in the course of which he said
that the Turks had in every instance supported the liber-
ties of the Servian people against the oppression and

tyranny of the Servian Government, and a greater proof of
that could not be given than in their remaining faithful to
the Turks during the Crimean war. Coming down to the

time of Michael, he said that that prince claimed wider his
hereditary right. That was resisted by the Porte in support
of the right of election, but he gave way, as it was the wish

of the people to have Michael. The result of that had been
that Michael had increased the number of guards from the
malcontents of the Turkish provinces, murderers and rob-
bers, and the Servian question shortly after again became
ripe. In 1861 Michael convoked a General Assembly, in
which he proposed that the title should be hereditary in-
stead of elective, the establishment of an organised body of
50,000 militia with a reserve of 70,000 men, and that he
should open relations as an independent Prince with foreign
States—proposals that were in direct opposition to the en-
gagements with the Porte and treaty obligations. lie de-
prived the popular Assembly of their liberty, and reduced
its numbers, He claimed to elect the president and vice-pre-
sident, whose nomination was befors in the hands of the
Assembly. He also took the power of naming the council
during pleasure, and of suspending the functions of the
National Assembly when he thought proper. He took away
the responsibility of Ministers, and in other matters violated
the rights of the people. The English Government protested
against those proceedings,and warned him that he had vio-
lated treaty obligations with the Porte and engagements
with foreign Powers, by depriving the Servian people of
their liberties. They had suddenly heard of twelve new
Russian agents having been appointed in Bulgaria. They
had heard of Servian agents crossing the frontier, and
that the Prince was going to cross. In May, 1860, twelve
Turks had been murdered, and nothing had been said
about it. Three years ago an attack upon the fortress cf
Belgrade was apprehended; but Mr. Longworth, the con-
sul at Belgrade, had written to the Foreign Office at the
time stating that the intrigues of the Servians were driving
the Turks to such extremities that an outbreak of some
kind was inevitable. At the time there was nothing to com-
plain of against the Turks. He did not mean to say there
were not many open questions they might have settled,
and nobody was more desirous that such questions should
be settled than Sir H. Bulwer. The hon. member for Gal-
way had spoken of Mr. Longworth in a manner which he
regretted. He (Mr. Layard) had known him for many
years, and he believed that no man living knew more of the
Turks. Mr. Longworth was also a man of great literary
Capacity, and had written an important work on Circassia.
But neither Mr. Longworth nor anybody else attempted to
justify the bombardment of Belgrade. It was an infamous
act—(hear)—and wholly unjustifiable. The Government
of this country did not approve of the act, and, what was
more, the Turkish Government did not approve of it. On
the contrary, the moment they heard of it, they at once
rebuked the offender and degraded him. But the whole
thing had been brought about and precipitated by the in-
trigues of the Servians themselves. (Cries of " No, no,"
and "Hear, hear.") The Turks had a right, by treaties, to
the fortress of Belgrade. But hon. members might say the
fortress was •f no use to the Turks. (Hear.) Well, the
same thing might be said of Gibraltar, it was of no use to
England, but still, this country would not lightly part with
the fortress. In like manner, the Turks were attacked to
the old and renowned fortress of Belgrade. The Turks
had refused to give it up, and this country was not in a
position to say to the Turks that they should give it up.
They had heard of the stands of arms which had been
sent to Servia, he had good reason to believe from
two Russian arsenals; and they had seen how, after much
manoeuvring on the part of the Russians, that when they
were driven into a corner the Prince of Servia said they
were arms, and that he had a right to them. Bat it seemed
that hon. members, when speaking of the Turkish questions,
became lost to all sense of justice, and as if men who be-
lieved in Mehemet or Confucius might be treated in any
way—(" Oh, oh")—and when he protested against it he
was told that he was a Turk. (Loud laughter.) But there
was insurrection in Poland ; and might it not be asked
whether some of the arms and ammunition intended for
Servia had not found their way elsewhere--as if to illustrate
the danger of playing with fire ? The Greeks, like the
Servians, had also been indulging in ambitious drawee, and
they had heard of the Greek cross floating from the dome of
St. Sophia, But her Majesty's Government had advised
them to give np thomo ars.a ua, ana apply thormaolop. to the
work of educating their people, of improving and develop-
ing their internal resources, of consolidating their liberties
and institutions; bat the Greeks heeded not the advice,
and what was the result ? They had seen the result in the
late revolution and the almost unanimous election of an
English Prince for their King, which was a confession that
the advice of the English Government was founded on
wisdom. The Government of her Majesty now tendered
the same advice to the Servians. They advised them to
educate their people and improve their resources, instead
of dreaming of acquiring Bosnia and other places. The
Servians could not contend alone with the Turks. If

Servia became independent of Turkey, she must be indi-
rectly dependent upon some other Power. If the Turks
and Servians were left alone to fight it out, the Turks
would destroy them off the face of the earth. Let them
see what Prince Michael had done. In a little princi-
pality containing a million of people he had appointed seven
Ministers of State, and he was going to organise an army.
Within a few days there had been intelligence that the
Prince had proclaimed martial law in six of the Servian dis-
tricts, and it was not unlikely the whole would be placed
under that regime. The hon. gentleman proceeded at some
length to condemn the system of government pursued by
the authorities, which, ho said, was placed in the hands of
a number of men who were thought to have acquired the
necessary capacity for governing by having travelled in
Europe and learned some bad French and worse morals.
With regard to the statements of the hon. member for Gal-
way as to the present condition of Turkey they might have
been true 25 years ago, but now they were about as appli •
cable as the history of the Jews in England in the loth
century. (No, no.) He spoke from his own knowledge,
having travelled in Turkey as much as most men. With
regard to the condition of the Christians in Turkey a very
great improvement had taken place,and though there might
be individual instances of persecution, there was no syste-
matic persecution by order of the Government. Upon the
point as to the difficulty of Christians obtaining justice in
Turkish law courts, he could only remind the house that
the difference in the religion of the two parties was very
great, and that what happened in Turkey was nothing more
than was seen every day in Italy and Spain. In Naples
last year he knew a case where a Protestant lady was re-
fused a passport to see her dying husband, and was obliged
to declare falsely that she was unmarried before she could
obtain it. In Spain a Protestant could not obtain Christian
burial, and in the Protestant countries of Sweden and Nor.
way a Roman Catholic would be treated much in the same
manner. The hon. gentleman then quoted the reports of
Mr. Consul Blunt, of Smyrna, at some length in support
of his views, and declared, fr,m his own personal experi-
ence of camp life in Turkey, that the provinces of the
country were as safe for travellers as any districts in
Europe with which he was acquainted. He then proceeded
to consider the progress of its material interests; and pointed,
as an evidence of that progress, to the efforts which were
made during the past year for the cultivation of cotton in
the country. He maintained that its example contrasted
favourably with the conduct of our own Indian Government
in the matter, and that more had been done in Turkey last
year for its cultivation than in all ether parts of the world.
(Hear.) Take, again, its finances. What greater proof of
honesty or stability could be given than the manner in
which the Turkish Government had exposed all their affairs
to the scrutiny of Lord Hobart, Mr. Fester, and the French
commissioner, who were sent out by the Governments of
England and France for that purpose ? A loan was recom-
mended; was that loan applied to the purposes for which it
was raised ? It was said that it was not, but that, on the
contrary, the Turks had applied it to defraying the expense
of making war on the Christians. To that accusation he
gave a most distinct and emphatic denial. The report of
Lord Hobart went minutely into its distribution, and showed
that every farthing was applied to the purposes for which
the loan had been raised. Nine millions sterling of paper
money were withdrawn by its means; and as the commerce
of the country was chiefly, but not exclusively, in the hands
of the Christians, they were the parties who were chiefly
benefitted by this proceeding. Then came the question 01
its trade and revenue. Well, both had increased and were
increasing. In the reign of Sultan Mahmoud its revenue
was £3,000,000 ; in 1853 it was £7,000,000; but in 1863
situ r had a dt
say
0. Ca lsase , OdwooaB,
tsoaobool73.
in. f It
nd wouldaetxiot
nob:et
iaaonbnd..
It was based on a more just
increase
in
ros erity and
showed a proportionate incare
popopula-
tion.froav is
ai
sinking
aHknienhqgaudfiut ea
In
d ,o
abne admitteddenhemtbahedl
made
eifvtoserd
id, t debt
asbuptc
such
ibeen)was diminutiontincreased,
e b.elasticity
ameanss
t ic buti
ty
otbifemlde'
on
theurbk il
es
revenuedh . re
Bsotiu tr
oesfeusp,tphtohesaect
t,ohiiwithen Tt
rTurks
very
ke
as rs y
were
littlet
now:lun care,e existed,otnutawoefohutohlrd:
\
ef"tl9, what better Government wore hon. members pre-
zheacrhederihrtoistiansubiseteitetu:weni:in its place ? Would the condition of
mans and
- Poland.aysob:anbestwteerrihf
ehawnoduleddovpeorintto
ttahecirrulcaessioaf
resolved It„iee:rf '.ll_ear.) The question, therefore, simply
BUjrnan POril,inti;" this: first, extermination of the Mus-
but it was absurd to4uaex
the Mahemedan.°tated each other as much as they did
then mutual extermination by the
went wished to hold thelt_ter.) Her Majesty's Govern-
piaci—ace fairly between all parties,
he the Turks would admit the

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 30, 1363

He had had the honour to make Mr. Consul Longworth's

acquaintance some years ago, but that gentleman, he was
sure, would not deny that a man was murdered some time
back, and the prisoner acquitted because there were only
Christian witnesses against him. The hon. gentleman then
quoted Dr. Sandwith in support of his view with regard to
the distinctions still made between Mussulmans and Chris-
tians, showing that the latter could not wear white
turbans or yellow shoes, and frequently lost their lives
through the prohibition against their wearing arms. Who,
he asked, could speak so badly of the Turks as did our
own representatives there ? Sir Henry Bulwer, writing
on the 24th of April, 1860, thus expressed himself :
" Wherever the Turk is sufficiently predominant to be im-
plicitly obeyed, laziness, corruption, extravagance, and
penury mark his rule. (Hear, and laughter.) Wherever
he is too feeble to exert more than a doubtful and nomi-
nal authority, the system of government is that of the Arab
robber or the lawless Highland chieftain." (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) Did his hon, friend agree to that ?
Mr. LAYARD nodded his head in assent. (Great
laughter.)
Mr. COBDEN— That being so, why should we be sur-
prised that the Christian population of Turkey complained,
and desired change? (Hear, hear.) Let, then, that prin-
ciple of non-intervention be also applied in its case; let
France and England, neither of whom desired any portion
of its territory, come to an understanding on the subject,
and then things would right themselves ; for, in such an
event, were there to be a revolution—and he believed there
would--it would be of an internal character ; it would not
involve the neighbouring great Powers, and would as little
affect the lest of the world as if it took place in the centre
of Abyssinia. (Hear, hear.) England was doing every-
thing to bolster up Turkey, and in March of last year the
hon. member for Southwark, a few weeks before the loan
came out, said that the floating debt of Turkey was very
small. Her debt now was 55 millions, and she was paying
four and a half millions interest for it annually. At the
time the hon. member made that statement, Lord Hobart
said the debt in 1859 was 41 millions. Earl Russell did
wrong in signing a note that was appended to the circular
soliciting subscriptions,and it had a great effect in obtaining
them. Turkey had never paid any interest on her debt
from her own resources, having borrowed the money with
which to do it. There was great exaggeration about what
Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster did in Turkey. Their account
of the state of that country was unsatisfactory, and had it
been published earlier it would have retarded their subscrip-
tions to the loan. From the moment they ceased to lend
money to Turkey she must cease to pay interest on her debt,
because her income was butll,ooo,ooo,and the interest on her
debt was 4i millions. The population of Turkey was ra-
pidly decreasing. The Turkish population in Smyrna had,
within 30 years, decreased from 80,000 to 40,000, and the
Greek population had increased from 20,000 to 75,000. One
cause of the diminution of the Turkish population was her
drain for soldiers, but the great cause was in the vices of her
system. The Turks had done nothing but conquer and ren-
der those regions desolate; whilst the other parts of the
Mussulman race had shown slight signs of progress. He
wanted an English policy pursued, founded on our English
interests and instincts, carried out in Turkey. There had
been four centuries of misrule, and it was time it should be
amended.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the re-
mark of the hon. member was not more pointed than true,
that they were taking upon themselves more and more every
day the discussion of the condition of the human race ; but
in doing so they must be guided by the temper and discre-
tion of those who brought the subject forward. The Crimean
war constituted, no doubt, a reason why the House of Com-
mons should not be barred from the discussion of Turkish
affairs ; but it was impossible not to feel that the state of
mind given expression to that evening exhibited a reaction
from that which very naturally prevailed during the Crimean
war. Far be it from him to check the sympathy which had
been manifested towards the Christian population of Turkey;
but, at the same time they were bound to hold the scale of
justice, and not to suffer even those legitimate sympathies
to divert them from that judicial temper with which they
ought to address themselves to the consideration of the
question. To one part of the speech of his hon. friend (Mr.
Cobden) he had listened with particular satisfaction,
namely, when he spoke of the immense advantages which
attached to the cordial co-operation between France and
England in the conduct of an Eastern policy. He believed
that their whole hope of an attainment of a satisfactory
result must depend in a principal degree upon a thorough
good understanding between the two leading powers of
the world. But, at the same time, in the application of
that principle practical difficulties would arise, and his hon.
friend had referred to a most important case, that of the
Syrian massacres, in which such difficulty arose. In

opposition, too, to the statements of his hon. friend, he
must assert that it was no part of the policy of his noble
friend at the head of the Government or of the Foreign
Office that the people of England should be kept in the
dark with respect to Turkish finance. At the same time he
was willing to admit the state of things in Turkey was not
such that, critically, a financial eye could view with entire
satisfaction. His hon. friend had used strong language, to
the effect that the people of this country had been influenced
by
disgraceful panics with respect to the designs of the
litiasiansa I
Au fax as that question was con-
cerned, it was not necessary to go back to the causes of the
Crimean war; but he was bound to say that, while they
would consult as far as poosible for the safety of the Christian
population of Turkey, the ancient policy with regard to that
country wa3 not to be repudiated. He would be a bold man
who would say that the appearance of the Turk in the
Western world was favourable to the happiness of mankind ;
but however that might be, it was of no use to draw highly-
coloured pictures unless they were prepared to adopt some
other steps. If it was the wish of his hon. friend that all
the world might run in and pull down everything in the
Ottoman Empire, he could understand the argument. But
they had now to deal with the existence of that empire such
as it was, and, if they were not prepared to encourage a
crusade against it, he thought it was a matter of doubtful
prudence to rip up the history of former times and reopen
old sores. It was their duty, as men bound to make the best of
things as they found them, to take steps for upholding the
rights and liberties of the Christian population of Turkey,
and not to shut their eyes either at the rights of the Mus-
sulman population, who, upon the testimony of the noble
lord, appeared to come in for their share of ill-usage.
He thought it was their duty to avoid all rash and unneces•
sary predictions as to the future relative positions of the
Christian and Mussulman population of Turkey, and that
it would bo for the interest of Europe and of England, which
formed an important constituent of Europe, to let the future
tell its own tale, and, instead of setting one race against
another, to adopt the best means in their power for securing
the rights and liberties of all classes of the Turkish popu-
lation. (Cheers.)
Mr. D. GRIFFITH regretted the absence of the noble
lord at the head of the Government, who had a kind of pre-
scriptive title to treat of foreign affairs; but at the same
time he was bound to confess that he very highly appre-
ciated the tone and manner of the speech of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. It was clear they wore supporting a
policy opposed to the interests of Servia and of Europe,
withaut producing any advantage whatever to the Porte,
Mr. GREGORY said he would not weaken the influence
of the discussion by pressing for a division, and therefore
he would withdraw his motion.
Motion withdrawn.

DRAINAGE OF LAND (IRELAND).
The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered and
agreed to.
The house adjourned at five minutes to one o'clock.