The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-20 00:00:00

IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES.

Mr. DILLW YN rose to move for a select committee to
nquire how far the present distribution of endowments for
religious purposes throughout Ireland might be so amended
as most to conduce to the welfare of all classes of her Ma-
jesty's Irish subjects. The hon. member said he thought
the time had come when a great change should take place
in the arrangement of the temporalities of the Irish Church.
He further thought that the Liberal party were pledged in
a special manner to the advancement of that question.
He was aware that any measure which was likely per-
manently to settle a question of so much magnitude
should emanate from the Government, as no private
member could entertain any hope of carrying it thr, ugh.
He had long been expecting to find the question an-
nounced in the Royal speech, but, like reform and other
questions which had been the watchwords of the Liberal
party, it was allowed to sleep, But the question of the Irish
Church temporalities was not, like reform or any of the other
questions, advocated by the Liberal party, but was of an en-
tirely exceptional character. A well known writer has re•
cently observed that the hold which the Irish Church
had upon the affections of the Irish people was a
garrison of 20,000 men. That was the opinion of Mr. G.
Smith, a professor at Oxford. It was for this house
to say whether the power so wielded was wielded for the
advantage of the whole nation, and justified by national
exigency, and whether the establishment had answered the
ends for which it had been endowed. As he wished to for-
tify himself behind the opinions of statesmen, he would
read an extract from the speech of the right hon. member
for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli). Speaking on an Irish
question, the right hon. gentleman said, " That dense po-
pulation in extreme distress who inhabited Ireland had an
established Church which was not their Church, a territo-
rial aristocracy, the richest of whom lived in distant capi-
tals; there they have a starving population, an absentee
aristocracy, and an alien Church; in addition to which
they had the weakest executive in the world." What would
any hon. gentleman say on reading such an account of any
country? He would say at once the only remedy was re-
volution ; but the Irish people would not have revolution—
and why? Because Ireland was connected with another
and more powerful country ; so that the connection with
England was the cause of the present state cf things in
Ireland; and if England prevented a revolution, which
was the only remedy, then England was logically in the
odious position of being the cause of the miseries of Ireland.
Believing that the Irish Church was not a political neces-
sity, and that it had not proved a success, he could not
allow the question to sleep any longer. He had been eight
or nine years in the house, and the question had only been
once brought forward, and that was by Mr. Miall. He was
ashamed to call himself a Liberal, and sit on those benches,
and see a question shirked year after year to which that
party was pledged. He maintained that the misgovernment
of this country was the cause of the disorders, disturbances,
rebellion, conspiracies, trials for high treason, and religious
riots, which were constant in Ireland. Lord Brougham, in
1823, declared that the time would come when that house
must give an account of its stewardship. Lord J. Russell, in
1835, said there was no time in which the Irish people did
not feel themselves to be the subjects of tyranny and not of
just government. He (Mr. Dillwyn) believed that the Irish
people were the most patient on the face of the earth,
or they would not put up with such gross injustice ;
and this was especially manifest in the matter of religion.
In Canada, in Scotland, in every other part of her Majesty's
dominions, the religious opinions of the majority were re-
spected, but in Ireland the opinions of the majority were
held subject to a dominant class. (Hear, hear.) This it
was which prevented union between the dominant class. He
might show the feelings which actuated that class from a
letter in the _lrish Ecclesiastteal Gazette, in which the writes
said he did not object to any one on account of his religion,
if he were infidel, Socinian, or even Roman Catholic—
(oh I)—and then recommended Protestant landlords to se

lect Protestant tenants. It was not to be expected that the
Catholic priest, foaling himself aggrieved from his position,
should fall into the views of the Government which perpe-
tuated acts of injustice toward his religion. The resolutions
of that house showed how the leading statesman felt the
Church to be at the bottom of the mischief in Ireland
(Hear, hear.) He reviewed the legislation, and the at-
tempts at legislation, that had taken place on this question,
and traced the evils existing in Ireland to her Church diffi-

culty. The object of his motion was to redistribute and re-
arrange the Irish Church t evenues more in accordance with
the principles of justice. 'l' be fifth article of the Union had
hitherto prevented them going into the subject, but he con-
tended it did not apply to the temporalities of the Church,
but only to the doctrine and discipline. Not a word was
said in the clause about the temporalities,which he thought
was not attributable to accident ; because that was gene-
rally the first thing thought of by the friends of the Church.
The two Churches were to be considered as one; and,far as
the Church of England was concerned, they had always
claimed a right to deal with its temporalities, and they had
done so in many instances, for the purpose of making it
more effective. He looked on the Irish Church as a source
of weakness to the country and to the Church of Eng-
land. They often heard the Church spoken of as so many
bishops, priests, and deacons. They, however, were only
its ministers, the Church being the wh le body of the
people ; and he insisted that they had no right to keep up
and maintain the Church for the sake of the few, and ignore
the spiritual welfare of the masses. If they had to begin
de novo to legislate for the Irish Church, he doubted if they
would proceed on the same principle. He could not see any
justification for its maintenance, either as a political neces-
sity, for rational strength, or to promote harmony and the
interests of religion. Whatever the present status of Pro-
testantism in Ireland, it was due not to the revenues of the
Establishment, but to the extraneous aid which the cause
received in the subscriptions collected in England. In 1834.
, 11 per cent. of the population was Protestant, 81 per cent,
Catholic, 8 per cent. Presbyterian, and one-third per cent.
other persuasions. In 1861 the numbers stood thus—lli
per cent, were Protestants, 78 per cent. were Catholics, 9
per cent. Presbyterians ; while the other persuasions, in •
eluding Wesleyans, Independents, and Baptists, had risen
to one and one eighth per cent., which showed that those
who were most dependent upon voluntary efforts flourished
most. It was evident that the Irish Church question must
be settled before long; for the people of Ireland could not
be expected to remain
quiet under a state of things which
Parliament, nearly all the leading statesmen of the country,
and both the
altered. He admitted that he desired to lay hands upon the
great political parties had declared should be
temporalities of the Irish Church, not for the benefit of
that Church, but for the benefit of the Irish people.
He was aware that this country did not like the Roman
Catholics, but still it valued justice and fair play; and
he believed, if
the question of the temporalities of the
Irish Church Establishment were put upon, broad princi-
pies, there would be a disposition to deal with it. The
noble lord at the head of the Government some years ago

expressed an opinion that it would be impossible to main-
tain two establishments in Ireland, and that the time
would come when it would be necessary, as a matter of
justice, to make provision for the Catholic priesthood.
He thought the Liberal party should no longer delay to
bring the question forward, and that they should also urge
the Government, to proceed with the measures which were
popular on that side of the House. It appeared to him that
the noble lord at the head of the Government looked rather
for support to honourable members on the cross benches on
the opposite side than to the Liberal party. The party
opposite were strengthening their ranks, and it was not
improbable that they would soon bo crossing sides—Ca
laugh)—and all he could say was that he would do his best
to bring about a change in the temporalities of the Irish
Church.

Sir J. TREL A.WNY seconded the motion.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR rose to move an amendment to the
following effect :—" That an humble address be presented
to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be pleased
to appoint a Royal commission to inquire into the territo-
rial arrangements of existing benefices, whether consisting
of single parishes or unions of parishes; the extent and
contiguity of such parishes, the means of internal commu-
nication, the provision for the cure of souls, the amount of
population, and the number of Protestants in each bene-
fice." The hon. gentleman said he had taken the terms of
his motion from a remarkable pamphlet published by
Archdeacon Stopford, an eminent dignitary of the Irish
Church, and he thought his amendment was better calcu-
lated to cure the admitted abuses in the temporali-
ties of the Irish Church than the remedy pro-
posed by the honourable member for Swansea.
Reform was demanded on go-d grounds, because there
were clergymen who did no work at all and were paid, while
other clergymen did a great deal of work without any pay.
The details even of the Connaught Endowment Society
showed there were many churches wanting assistance,
and a surplus could not be spoken of until the resources
of the Church were inquired into. A select committee
was not the most suitable to inquire into these things,
but a Royal commission; but, in order that the meetings
of the latter might be satisfactory, care must be taken of
the terms of reference. The
,commission of 1830, ap-
pointed on the motion of the Duke of Wellington, was
useless in a great measure, owing to the terms in which the
subject was referred to it. A commission was most fitting,
as the members of it could visit the parishes and examine
them on the maps, and redistribute the incomes according
to the wants of each. The appropriation principle having
been abandoned by Lord John Russell would not, he hoped,
be again attempted. This commission would be prepared to
report this year, so that a bill could be brought in next ses-
sion which would settle for ever the Irish Church. (Oh,
oh.) The hon. member concluded by moving his amend-
ment.

Mr. NE WDE rE seconded it.
Mr. WHITESIDE opposed the motion of the hon. mem-
ber for Swansea, as well as all the other motions on the
paper, . He entered into an inquiry of the policy of the
school of politicians to whom the hon. member belonged to-
wards the Established Church. They had endeavoured to
gain a character by attacking bit by bit the English Esta-
blished Church, and they now took the bolder course of
attacking that branch of the United Church in Ireland.
Referring to the proposition of a royal commission, the right
hon. gentleman said he found from inquiry that of late
years the sum of £823,171 had been expended in unprofit-
able royal commissions. He ridiculed the idea of an ex-
Secretary to the Admiralty attempting Church reform, and
censured the conduct of the Liberal party towards the
Church. The hon. member for Swansea had referred to the
lamentable state of Ireland, and he proposed as a panacea
for all those evils, the banishing from that country of one
branch of the Christian Church. (No.) The question had
not been brought forward or suggested by the Roman Ca-
tholic members, and he regretted there were not measures
of a more practical character before them on which to en.
gage their attention. So important a question as that under
the consideration of the house was not within the pro-
vince of a private member, and it ought not to be left to
him to unsettle the fundamental basis of the Church. He
believed the Church of Ireland ought to be maintained, be-
cause it supported the pure Catholic faith that was in e‘ ist •
ence there centuries before the English set foot in Ireland,
and he asserted that the present bishops of that Church
were the descendants of the earliest teachers of the pure
faith in Ireland. He traced the history of the church dur-
ing the time of Henry VIII,, Elizabeth, and James, and
said that the State connected itself with the English Church,
which in all times had been true to the monarch, faithful to
the principles of the constitution, and had always stood by
the well-regulated liberties of the country. The settlement
of the Church in Ireland had been productive of benefit.
It had been asked what success had attended the settlement
in Ulster. To that he would answer that the country was
controlled by a foreign power, by which he meant the Pa-
pacy; and the object of that power was to root out the Esta-
blished Church and to extirpate the English name, religion,
and race, in order to have a platform for carrying out its
designs. What harm did the Established Church do to
anybody ? Had any petitions been sent to that house from
the Irish Dissenters in support of the hon. member's pro-
position ? Not one. The Irish Dissenters were upon too
friendly terms with their brethren of the Established Church
to wish for any change. If the Established Church were
swept away the Church of Scotland would go down, the
Baptists would go down, the Wesleyans would go down,
and as for the Quakers, they would be devoured in a mo-
ment. (Laughter.) The hon, and learned gentleman then
enumerated the churches that were built and enlarged in
Ireland F ince the union, and those that were built and en••
larged since the appointment of the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners, and stated that the only five places where the po-
pulation had increased during the last 10 years were the
most Protestant places in Ireland ; but where the popula

tion bad most diminished the Roman Catholics were most
numerous. If they destroyed the parochial system of th 3
Established Church in Ireland, there would be nothing to

oppose the most wonderful organisation in the world—the
Church of Rome. A handful of fanatics running through
the country would not be a match for a Church that was not
only powerful in Ireland, but exercising a mighty influence
throughout the world. It would have been impossible to have
secured the Union had not the Legislature pledged itself to
the maintenance of the Protestant Church; and it was not
bscoming in English members now to seek to get rid of that
pledge. There had been returns moved for in that house
with reference to Ireland, with the avowed object of show-
ing that the number of members in the Church of England
had decreased ; those returns were untrustworthy, for up
to 1840 the enumerators, being paid by the numbers they re-
turned, made their lists as large as possible ; and in the
later returns, the Dissenters, who were formerly included
in the lists of the Church of England, were given in sepa-
rate columns. Upon the history of the country—the his-
tory of the Church—the state of Ireland—the condition of

the Church, never so prosperous—he rested his defence of
the Established Church of Ireland ; but, above all, it was
to be defended, because of its connection with the Refor-
mation. (Cheers.)

Mr. B. OSBORNE then moved the adjournment of the
debate.

Mr. DILLWYN hoped that if the debate was adjourned
the Government would give up a night for so important a
question.

Lord PALMERSTON said the Government could not do
that; but he had no doubt the hon. member would find no
difficulty in fixing a night for the purpose. (Ironical cheers
and laughter from the Opposition benches.)
Mr. MONSELL would recommend his hon. friend the
member for Liskeard (Mr. B, Osborne) to introduce the
question on the day for supply.

Mr. B. OSBORNE said he had no other course, and con-
seluently he begged to give notice that on the first night for
going into committee of supply, which would be Thursday,
June 28, he would move a resolution with regard to the
Irish Church. (Cheers )

MR. REECE AND THE QUEEN'S WESTMINSTER

RIFLES. -----
Sir R. CLIFTON gave notice that he would postpone
his motion for an address for copy of the correspondence in
the War-office relative to the dismissal of Mr. Reece from
the Queen's Westminster Rifles.

CIVIL BILL COURTS (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir R. PEEL obtained leave to introduce a bill to amend
the procedure in the civil bill courts of Ireland, and the bill
was subsequently read a first time.

AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE TREATY.
On the motion of Lord PALMERSTON, leave was
given to introduce a bill to carry into effect an additional
article to the treaty of the 7th day of April, 1862, between
her Majesty and the United States of America, for the sup-
pression of the African slave trade.

POOR REMOVAL (No. 3).
On the motion of Mr. VILLIERS, leave was given to
introduce a bill for the further amendment of the law relat-
ing to the removal of poor persons, natives of Ireland, from
England.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
The District Parochial Churches (Ireland) Bill and the
Harwich Harbour Bill were read a second time ; and the
Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act Continuance Bill was read
a third time and passed.
The house then adj >urned at five minutes to one.

LOST AND SAVED. By the Hon. Mrs. Norton.
3 vole.—" In the pages of Lost and Saved,' (says
the Morning Post), the reader will find the rare poetic
charm, the graceful and unexaggerated pathos, the keen
artistic love of nature, the unerring good taste, and the
true womanly tenderness which made him linger over the
pages of Stuart of Dunleath.' But beyond all these things
there are in ' Lost and Saved' evidences of strong pu•pose
and proofs of matured and consummate ability which place
it in a far different category. In this remarkable work
Mrs. Norton brings the powers of her mind to the enforce.
ment and the illustration of home truths which ought to be
startling, as they are undeniable, which society does not
deny and will not redress, but which are dragged by a
dauntless heart and a powerful hand from behind the rose-
coloured veil of expediency into the light of truth. There
is no human element wanting to the interest and pathos of
this fine work."
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