The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-03 00:00:00

whether it was expedient to weaken the hands of the
Government at such a time by having any division upon
such a vote.
Captain BOLDERO had heard all the praise given by
the Hon. Member to the Noble Lord—he only wondered
how different would have been that language, had the
additional force been asked for by the Right Hon. Baronet
below him (Sir R. Peel). It was well known that the
press of London kept correspondents throughout the globe
—so surely they would have them at home, yet they said
nothing of all this arming and training. It was true there
had been a riot and burning at Birmingham, but that
might have been quelled by a little more vigilance on
the part of the Magistrates. There had also been distur-
bances at Newcastle, but that was promptly met, and at
once put down, but the Noble Lord had failed to make
out a case for the addition be called for. He (Captain
B.) would, however, vote for it, on the ground that the
troops were so harrassed, that it was with difficulty that
garrison duty could be performed. At a recent court-
martial a man was tried for sleeping on his post, he ac-
knowledged it,but he said he had been on sentry 15 nights out
of 30, and nature was exhausted—be could not bear it.
He thanked her Majesty's Government for moving for the
increase, and he trusted the House would give its unani-
mous assent to the motion.
Mr. C. BULLER had come down with the intention
of giving a cordial and decided negative to the amendment
proposed. The amendment could be of no value, except
as indicating a certain opinion among those who supported
it.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume.) The Hon. Member
had mentioned three remedies for the evils that now ex-
isted. A repeal of the Corn-laws—an issue of small notes,
worth nothing—(Laughter)—and, what certainly was a
new point, excluding Ministers from a seat in that House.
If the complaints of the people were to be taken into con-
sideration, and if remedies were to be devised, let
them fairly and explicitly state what those remedies
were, and not lead the people on with vain hopes.
He was anxious to express his hearty and entire concur-
rence in the course that had been pursued by Ministers
during the late events, and he hoped no division would
take place on this question, because he thought it was
important that those who professed themselves most in
favour of the liberty of the subject, and most opposed to
coercive measures, should mark in the strongest way their
sense of the admirable conduct of the Government in ab-
staining from unnecessary measures of coercion.—( Hear,
hear.) Heretofore, under similar circumstances, it had
been the practice of the Government to take advantage of
every partial disturbance in order to encroach on the liberty
of the subject, and to enforce the worst enactments of our
laws. In former times the excesses at Birmingham would
have been construed into treason, and the worst severities
of our libel laws would have been put in force.—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home
Department, therefore deserved great credit for the course
he had pursued. The Government had proposed no mea-
sure at all restrictive of public liberty—all they did was
to prosecute those who openly violated laws for the pro-
tection of personal property, and to ask Parliament to give
them the physical means of enforcing the ancient laws of
the land. That was? power he would not refuse to any
Government. No man's property could be injured by an
increase in the force—the only inconvenience was an in-
creased expense. He had, therefore, a right to protest
against the language of the Hon. Member for Birming-
ham, who seemed to have enveloped the Government of
the present day in censures that would have been applica-
ble to the very worst Governments. His opinion
was they ought to be very thankful that the
management of affairs had been in the hands
of the present Government during the late crisis,—( Hear,
hear.) He was rather astonished et the want of informa-
tion manifested by the Hon. and Gallant Captain who
had just sat down, because he appeared to be so little ac-
quainted with the state of the country as to think the dis-
turbances in Birmingham and Newcastle were isolated
cases. His (Mr. Buller's) opinion was, that it was very
unwise to treat those disturbances of the Chartists—those
fermentations that existed in the public mind at the pre-
s. nt moment, as light and unimportant, and as not extend-
ing to a large portion of the populace. He was, how-
ever, afraid the present excitement would prove a source
of great difficulty to the future Government of England.
Any man of common sense, and who had any information
on the state of the country, would see that all their party
squabbles and differences of opinion sank into utter insig-
nificance when compared with the great problem of restor-
ing something like satisfaction among the great mass of
the working classes.—( Hear.) They had now to deal
with a generation of working men, such as no Govern-
ment ever had to deal with before—they had to deal
with a generation among whom education of any kind
whatever told, for the grown up working men of the
present day were the first persons whem Bell er Lancas-
ter, the Church or the Dissenters, had taught to read or
write. That was a small. modicum of education—it
served to circulate bad doctrines among the people, but it
gave those doctrines prominence and power._( Hear,
hear.) He had said "bad doctrines"—he had not meant
that, because every one knew that was contrary to his
opinions.—(Laughter from the Opposition.) What he
had meant to say was, that the doctrines of the press did
give circulation to bad doctrines. Look at the force of
a press entirely supported by the working classes.—
(Hear, hear.) Formerly the writings of Cobbett were
periodically circulated, and the pamphlets of demagogues
had a temporary circulation—but now there was a regular
press, supplying all information respecting the occurrences
of the day, circulated among the working classes,
and supported solely by them. It was not circutcated gra-
tuitously, but depended for support on the general appetite
of all mankind for news, and being the most extensively
circulated, and the most profitable press in England—for
he might say, without fear of contradiction, that the press
which circulated among the working people was by far
the most extensive, and, with only few exceptions, the
most profitable production—they found the food most
palatable to their readers was dwelling on the sufferings
which were unfortunately the lot of a great mass of the
people in this country. These were the evils with which
they had to contend, and these evils could not be put
down by the rough measures formerly employed by rulers,
who were used to clap two or three of the most violent agi-
tators into prison, and ruin the most violent newspapers.
But let them do what they would the press would exist.—
( Hear, hear.) It would still be the interest of speculators
to keep up a press for the working classes, which afforded
the best market, and it would be still for their
interest to cater to the appetite of the people.
Such a state of things had never before existed in
England, and 'what they had to dread was that these feel-
ings of Chartism, if now put down, would merely slumber
for a while. He should be exceedingly happy if be were
as well armed with a panacea for these evils as some of his
friends professed to be. His own notion was that it would
take a long time to restore a perfectly good feeling among
the working classes of this country, and that it would re-
quire the best dispositions of Parliament in a long course
of useful and practical legislation. Those results, he be.
lieved, might be produced by the extension of political
privileges, and the gradual extension of education, which
would teach the people what a Government could do, and
moreover what a Government could not do for them; and
also by removing the unwise laws that restricted the in-
dustry of the people. The people ought also to feel by
the demeanour and constant language of that House, that
there was in the breast of their riders a very lively sym-
pathy with the people. It would also be prudent to show
the people that at the time they strengthened the law they
thought the law ought to be improved.
Sir R. PEEL protested against the doctrine, that
because one man chose to embody in an amendment an
abstract principle of which he might approve, that he was
compelled to support it whenever any Hon. Member might
choose to bring it forward.—(Rear, hear.) He denied
there existed any obligation on the part of a Member of
Parliament at all times and at r.ll seasons, however incon-
venient, and whatever misconstruction might arise from his
doing so, to vote for such a pvinciple. Ho very much
doubted whether it would not hive been true economy to
have increased the military force earlier, considering the
severe pressure on the military force in differents parts
of the world.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
It was infinitely better to demonstrate that vigour on the
part of the law should convineie parties of the hopeless-
ness of success, than to tempt ithem to violence by having
inadequate means.—( Hear, he: tr.) The ordinary law of
the country, if executed with firmness, was a very strong
power, but there would be a t endency to deprive it of
that power if they abandoned it at an early period, and
resorted to temporary measu re e.—( Hear, hear.) He
therefore had forborne, whateve r the sense of danger
had been, from pressing upon tihe Government the adop-
tion of measures of restrictios and coercion, knowing
well that the ordinary laws of ti te, country, if administered
firmly, would be sufficient to re.press it. He agreed with
the Hon. Member opposite, tl tat it would be unwise to
treat with contempt the mail b'station of public opinion
amongst the working classes. —(Hear, hear)—but the
most fatal error they could cotnmit would be by making
changes in the Constitution of th e country for the purpose
of allaying those feelings. If they believed it was wise to
change the Constitution, let th em change it from the
econ-
viction of their minds ; but to conciliate the Chartists by
making unwise changes would .eppose the country to the
hear.)utmost
It
peril,
would and
involvegiv
give no
theH o
satin ;faction
nt whatever.__(
mpt, Hear,
and give
them no benefit. He would re. m ind the House that it was
not many years since an extensile', e change was made in the
e
Constitution, and the promises Of amelioration were then
most extensive. It had been i ral!Possible for the Reformed
Parliament to realise the hop es which were held out to
the country. But he hoped, n ot by coercing the people,
not by exposing the Chartists, to the military or civil ex-
ecution, but he hoped that rea Boning alone would be suffi-
cient to convince rational Er igishmen when the present
fever should be subdued, lit iw little their real interest
would be advanced if they took the advice of their leaders, or
if some of their present objects c ould be attained. What must
the Hon. Member who a few months ago recommended
the formation of the National Convention, now think of
of it? It was elected by Universal Suffrage, and he ra-
ther thought that this instance of the principle would not
secure the confidence of the p eople. The Hon. Member
for Birmingham said they coul. i enjoy universal confidence,
but the first thing they did wa s to recommend an adher-
ence to a metallic currency, c in which the Hon. Member
immediately disclaimed them, stating that it gave him a
pang similar to that which he should have felt if his right
arm had been cut from his body.—(Laughter). The
Hon. Member was flow ready to agitate against the Na-
tional Convention ?—(Mr. tttwood—" Decidedly.")—.
(Laughter.) The Hon. Mt :saber for Kilkenny, who
brought forward this remedy o f a change in the Constitu-
tion, traced the evils to inadege to representation.—(Mr.
Hume—." A bad House of Coles mons. ')—(Laughter and
cheers.) But whatever ammo took place, a difference
would still prevail. The Hon. Member was the advocate
of economy, but it was a ,niserable economy which
did not keep up ouB establishment; and the
Honourable Member for Birmingham, considering
Nicholas of Russia o ue real enemy, would
be ready to impeach the las, n. Member if he did not pro-
pose an addition of ten sail ot ' the line to defeat his ma-
noeuvres.—(Laughter.) Th .erefore a difference of opinion
would still prevail in the Cor istitution. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Birmingham would in 'ens upon the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny the necessity of 'taking part against Russia—
( Hear, hear, from Mr. Atte rood.) He doubted whether

the Hon. Member for Birmingham was not further dis-
posed to charge on the Reformed Parliament en undue
consideration of economy, and whether it would not have
been good policy to increase both our army and navy.—( Mr.
Attwood—"Certainly.")—(Laughter.) If the Hon. Member
was prepared to maintain the national faith and to increase
the army and navy, he did not see how the expectation
could be realised which was held out of a reduced taxation.
Let the House of Commons be constituted as it would, it
seemed that it was not the legitimate organ of public opi-
nion, but that there was to be opinions out of doors. He did
not believe, if they intended to maintain the national
faith, that they could fulfil the expectations which
were held out of the advantages to be derived
from a reduction of taxation. Since the Reform Bill
there had been no advance towards the reduction of
taxation, but, on the contrary, a debt which did not then
exist, existed now. He urged this, to show that it
was unwise to encourage the expectations that ex-
tensive changes would necessarily be attended with
great advantage. He could not help saying how
little agreed the Chartists and agitators were, one
class stating that the only remedy for the public distress
was a division of the landed property—( Hear, hear)—be-
cause it was stated that originally the land being an ele-
ment, and the air being an element, the land was as com-
mon as the air.—(Laughter.) He wished to impress on
the House that ill digested concessions were of no avail,
and that after the first concession was made, others were
urged as absolutely necessary. The Hon. Member for
Birmingham said that the banners of the Chartists were
inscribed " Peace, Law, and Order ;" but wicked leaders
Might take advantage of the organization made under his
influence, and when the proper time came, they might be
inscribed " Plague, Anarchy, and Confusion." He
hoped that a careful consideration on the part of the work-
ing classes,'ef the little hope there could be of seizing on pro-
perty by violence, of the certain loss that must occur by
the' interruption of peaceful industry, of the loss which they
had sustained by taking the foolish advice of withdrawing
their money from the Savings' Banks, in the hope of
creating public confusion. He did trust more to the in-
fluence of good sense and reason than'the power of menaces
or bayonets to keep the working classes of the country
from the evil example of those who, from interested advice,
were urging on the working classes as instruments for their
own private gain.
Mr. ATT WOOD explained.
Mr. WARBURTON said that one advantage of tha
amendment of his Hon. Friend was, that it had enabled
many Gentlemen to give their opinions, and thereby
strengthen the hands of the Government.—( Hear.) Not
one Gentleman had said a single word against the
proposal of the Noble Lord except the Hon. Member for
Birmingham. But he thought this a fit occasion to state
what means were necessary in order to reconcile the public.
Amongst the various causes that had contributed to the dis-
satisfaction which now existed was the state of parties in
this House, the balance of which bad prevented the
carrying of several useful measures of reform.--( Hear. )
Fiscal reforms could not be carried, owing to the balanced
state of parties in this House. The moment the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade brought forward the Timber
Question, it would be made as it had before been, a party
question, and that was given as a reason for not bringing
it forward.—( Hear, hear.) Then there was the New
Poor-law. He did not agree with those who had made it
a grouud for raising public discontent in the country ; but
he believed it was this question more than any questions
of Parliamentary Reform, which had excited the present
dissatisfaction.—Hear, hear.) His apprehension was that
tile Government, whether Whig or Tory, which should be
compelled to bring in a bill to amend that law, would
not, and under the present state of parties could not, act
honestly respecting it; his belief was, that any Government
attempting to act honestly upon the subject would be turned
out of office. Now these were great questions on which it
it was necessary that Parliament should legislate ; yet
what chance was there of legislating satisfactorily upon
them in the present state of parties, when immediately
the Government introduced a measure, such as it would
befit Parliament to enact, it was forthwith made a party
question ?—( Hear, hear.) And when the public saw that
there was no chance of their legislating satisfactorily, how
could they expect to be held in respect?—( Hear, hear.)
He would not advocate further Parliamentary Reforms,
simply because he was attached to a popular form of
Government, but because he saw that the present ba-
lanced state of parties produced anarchy—that is want of
rule—want of legislatioo ; because it was necessary to give
the predominance to one party or the other, that legis-
lation could not go on without. Of course he wished
his own party to have the predominance.-_( Hear, and
a laugh.) He had rather see the Liberal party
preponderate than the Tory ; and wishing legislation to go
on, and knowing it could not go on without giving the pre-
ponderance to one party, he therefore advocated further
advances in Parliamentary Reform, not conceiving that it
would lead, as the Right Hon. Baronet anticipated, to fur-
ther indefinite changes, but viewing it as a mode
of enabling the Legislature to perform its func-
tions, thereby inducing the public to think well of the
Legislature and favourably of the Constitution.—( Hear, hear. )
Upon these grounds, he thought the course adopted by the
Government in resisting further changes—in preventing the
Liberal party from obtaining that majority which, under a pro-
per conduct of the Government, he believed they would ob-
tain. He thought that course injudicious, for he was per-
suaded that if the Government persevered in the course they
pursued last Session, the preponderance of the Tory party
would be secured.—( Hear, hear.) Thinking that this was the
last opportunity
,in the present Session, perhaps, on which he
could express his opinions on these important measures, he had
those principles which he considered essential to give confidence
and vigour to the Liberal party, and those measures which he
believed must be carded either by a Tory or a Whig Govern-
ment ; and which, if carried by the present Ministry, would add
strength and power to the Liberal cause.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. O'CONNELL considered it his duty to address a few
words to the House on this subject; and the reason that in-
duced him to do so he would shortly express. In the first
place he declared his anxiety to concur in the motion which
had been made by the Noble. Lord, and had the Noble Lord
considered it necessary to augment the military force still more
he should have felt equal confidence in the proposition. He
thought the Noble Lord v% as right in not resorting to extreme
measures in legislation until every other means had been tried,
and he considered the increase of the military one of the best
of these means. But he had another motive for rising. The
Right Hon. Bart. had spoken of the necessity of increasing the
military from the state of the colonies, from the state especially of
the Canadas and the West Indies, and from the state of this
country. He was glad to find one reason left out of the Ca-
talogue--the state of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped he
should not be considered guilty of an unpardonable vanity in
boasting of the state of Ireland—( Hear, hear, from both sides
of the House)—in boasting that the military 'had constantly
diminished in that part of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Yet,
let it be remembered that the House spent five days in de-
bating whether the policy of the present Government, as to
Ireland, should be continued—(Hear, hear)—in policy of
which the results had been, that in Ireland alone was there
no- danger.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet
was quite right in saying that the industrious and the
loyal subjects of the Crown should be not only
safe, but secure—that is removed from all apprehension.--
( Hear, hear.) That is what a people, heavily taxed, had a
right to expect from their Government.—( Hear, hear.) Nei-
ther could there be any constitutional objection to increasing
the military force to the largest extent required by the exi-
gencies of the case ; for the soldiers of this country were not
ferocious mercenaries—but remarkable for their moderation
and forbearance.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet
spoke against ill-considered concessions. But the argument
went equally against all concessions. Now he (Mr. 0' Con-
nell) considered that concession was proper when founded
on real want and existing grievances. Concession to those
who were clamorous for their rights, disarmed them, and
strengthened the party conceding.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
We refused to concede to America till we lost her; whereas
the concession to Ireland of the repeal of the Penal Statutes
preserved Ireland to us. Therefore it should be inquired care-
fully if the Chartists had any well-founded complaint.—(Hear,
hear.) They asked for Universal Suffrage. The Right Hon.
Baronet pointed to the Convention, and triumphantly asked
whether that was a satisfactory proof of the benefits of Uni-
versal Suffrage. Now the Convention were not in fact re-
turned by Universal Suffrage. The wealthier classes did not
vote—the middle classes did not vote—the 30s. a week arti-
sans did not vote; it was only the 7s. a week workmen.__
( Hear, hear.) The Convention was the most exclusive
body it was possible to imagine, and acted as all exclusive
bodies did act—exceedingly ill--only they had the good sense
to reject the little shilling" measure.—(Laughter.) But
considering the miserable narrow basis on which the House of
Commons now rested, the people of England had a right to
ask for the concessions on the franchise.—( Hear, hear.) The
middle classes—the rational middle classes—should be relieved
from the vexations of the rate-paying clauses, and the difficul-
ties of registration ; and while the Suffrage was so restricted
as it was, at present the working classes would have substan-
tial cause for discontent, and it would not be imaginary, vision-
ary, dissatisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing but the absurd
" physical force" doctrines of the Chartists could retain the
present exclusive state of the franchise. This " sacred month"
would be a month of starvation, for what had the operative to
subsist upon, but their weekly earnings ?—( Hear, hear, hear. )
Let not the House be deterred from doing justice, by dislike to
concession—in injustice there could be no security—but in con-
ceding what was just would the greatest security to be found.
Mr. VILLIERS said ho agreed in the propriety of
increasing the military force for the preservation of
life and property. And he commended the course which
the Government had adopted in suppressing the dis-
turbances that had arisen during the last ten months;
their conduct he considered had been marked by justice and
humanity.—(Hear, hear.) But he believed that real exist-
ing grievances were the source of the prevailing discontent in
this country. And he should be ashamed of himself if, having
himself proposed the redress of some of those grievances, he
were now not to justify much of the discontent he considered
the result of those grievances not having been removed. That
House might blame themselves for all that had occurred. He
wished to know what the people of this country had ever gained
by argument, or by peaceable means-4 Hear, hear.) Ireland
did not, for instance, obtain Emancipation but through excite-
ment ; nor this country Parliamentary Reform. And Par-
liamentary Reform having failedto produce those benefits which
were anticipated from it, had they not the right to ask further
extension of the suffrage.__( Hear, hear.) The House were
so divided among themselves—they were so eternally
vilifying each other, that they had lost all moral respect.
He could not but think that some reform might be effected to
improve the condition of the people. In that respect he must
differ from the Noble Lord, for he firmly believed that it was
in the power of the Legislature to afford material relief by in-
troducing alterations into the system of taxation, and remov-
ing these restrictions which had been imposed upon trade and
commerce, and which he believed had occasioned much of the
suffering under which the people were labouring. He could
not but think that when all, except those who were imme-
diately interested in upholding those restrictions, agreed in
stating that the removal would be beneficial, that some well-
considered alteration of these laws would be calculated to alle-
viate the distress under which the people were suffering.._.
Cheers. •

Lord FRANCIS EGERTON—Although willing to give
the measure of the; Noble Lord his support, because he
considered the necessity of it fully proved, and not wishing to
cavil at the conduct of the Noble Lord and his Colleagues, yet
must protest against being considered as joining in that general
chorus of approbation of the conduct of the Ministers, in which
the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, seemed to think
'that both sides of the House were willing to join.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD denied that the people were actuated
by any general desire of plunder. With regard to arming, he
could state, from his own knowledge, that there had been a
great exaggeration. He had made inquiries, and did not be-
lieve that arming had gone on to any great extent to Birming-
ham. All honest Reformers in that town disavowed any
connection with the wretches who had perpetrated the outrages.
Deep distress had occasioned the disaffection. With regard to
what had fallen from his Hon. Colleague, he would put it to
the House seriously whether some adjustment might of take

place by the imposition of a property tax so as to alleviate the 1
distresses of the people.
Sir ROBERT PEEL explained. He did not mean to
impute to the people generally those intentions which the Hon.
Member for Birmingham was anxious to repudiate.
After a few words from Mr. HOBHOUSE,
Lord J. RUSSELL said the discussion which had just taken-
place showed a general concurrence of the House on two
points—first, that it was now expedient.to increase the military
force of the country ; and next, that before the present time
it would not have been wise to call for a new law to alter the
constitutional safe-guards of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He
was gratified to perceive this general concurrence, for he
believed this unanimity of thinking amongst persons of dif-
ferent persuasions would have a very great weight on the country,
and would strengthen the present Government and the course
of Government in general. He had no objection that the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny should desire to record his opinions
in connection with the present question ; but he could not but
regret that he meant to take the sense of the House on
the subject.—(Hear, hear.) If the Honourable Gentleman
thought the desired increase of force should be refused to
the Government, then it was incumbent that he should
take the sense of the House ; but as the Honourable Gen-
tleman concurred in the propriety of the vote, he did not see
what necessity there was at the present time for taking the
sense of the Honse upon opinions which it was well known
in
that he entertained by what had passed former discussions I
in the House. The Hon. Gentleman also put the House to
an injudicious inconvenience, by including in his amendment
the proposition that the people were inadequately represented,
that a change in the system was desirable, and that a sweeping
reduction of taxation was also necessary. A very wide differ-
ence of opinion existed on the latter question. It was quite
common for speakers, at public meetings, and for writers
through the press, to insist that a very great reduc-
tion of taxation might and ought easily to take place.
But this House was almost unanimously of opinion
that the public faith ought to be maintained, and that
no reduction of taxation should take place in those establishments
which were necessary to uphold the honour and the power of the
country. This being the opinion of the House, it was clear that,
consistently with those obligations, no general reduction of taxa-
tion could take place. The Members said they would not alter
the standard, they would not debase the currency, that public
faith with the creditors should be maintained, and our naval
and military honour should be supported. In these assertions
it was implied that no sweeping reduction of taxation could
take place. A sweeping reduction of taxation would involve
an abolition of the national debt and the engagements of the
country. And when the Hon. Members for Kilkenny and
Bridport were of those opinions, they ought not to make vague
statements, which must have the effect of misleading the people.
As for some of the arguments put forward by the Chartists, he
(Lord J. R.) could not say that he was disposed to dissent from
them. For example, he did not think it at all an unnatural idea
to propose that the country should be divided into electoral dis-
tricts. But he did not think that the representatives chosen by
the electors of those districts, whether they should be Tories or
Whigs or Liberals, would be found to possess views advan-
tageous to trade and commerce.—( Hear, hear.) He remem-
bered in former days when he was an humble Member on the
opposition side of the House, but a supporter of some of the
propositions of Mr. Huskisson, when he (Lord J. R.) used to
go down to the country to meet his Constituents, he used to
have great difficulty in meeting their charges, that he was for
Huskisson and Free Trade. But Universal Suffrage and
Electoral Divisions would not in their result satisfy the
Honourable Member for Bridport. He was opposed
to a fresh scheme of Reform, because he (Lord John Russell)
thought it would be injurious to the country, and would also
be unsatisfactory to the Reformers themselves. He had always
avoided delusive promises to the people on this head, and he
now thought, as well as heretofore, that another change would
not and could not have the effect of increasing wages and im-
proving the condition of the people, nor increase the comforts
of the working classes.—( Hear, hear. ) Such a notion he was
anxious to discourage, as he believed it must injure the stability
of the institutiohs of the country. Upon all those grounds,
therefore, and seeing that the other Hon. Members agreed so
far, be hoped the lion. Member for Kilkenny would not press
his motion.

Mr. HUME explained. He did not desire to effect a sweep-
ing reduction of taxation, but to equalize it, so that the manu-
facturing and labouring classes might be relieved. He would
neither withdraw nor press his motion.

The original motion was carried.
CASE OF LOVETT AND COLLINS.
Mr. LEADER presented a petition from Dr. Taylor to the
same effect as that he had already presented from Collins and
Lovett—with only this aggravation, that he was heavily ironed
while on his way from Birmingham to Warwick gaol. He
thought the defence of the Magistrates tended to con-
firm the statement of Lovett and Collins rather than contra-
dict it. He thought the House should remember that work-
ing people must have the same sensibilities as Hon. Members.
The amount of bail was excessive for mechanics--that was a
subject of complaint--to ask them for bail to the amount of
1,000,. was like asking bail for any Member of that House to
the amount of 100,0001. As the forms of the House would not
allow him to make any motion upon the subject, he would only
hope that if the law allowed untried prisoners to be so treated,
it would be soon altered.

Sir E. WILMOT did not know that it was necessary for him
to make any answer to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman. He
would call upon the House not to take for granted all that was
stated about the half-crown—for he was assured that it was not
strictly according to the truth. The Hon. Baronet then re.
capitulated the evidence which was adduced by the Earl of
Warwick in the House of Lords respecting the transactions in
the gaol. Much was said respecting the cutting of the hair,
and he understood that it had been sent up to London, and was
carried in the pocket of a ce.tain eccentric Ex-Chancellor,
ready to be produced in another place.— (Laughter. ) The fact
was, that Collins' hair was not cut at all, and Lovett's was cut
at his own desire. If they had had any complaint to make
they might have made it to the gaoler, who was as excellent
and humane a man in his situation of life as any in that House ;
or they might have complained to the Magistrates, but instead
of that be;ng done it appeared to him ( Sir E. Wilmot) that
certain parties had availed themselves of the late occurrences for
the purpose of exciting an ill feeling against the Magistracy.
Mr. HAWES was of opinion that the rules and regulations
of the gaol as applied to prisoners before trial were illegal, and
that Lovett and Collins had been subjected to illegal treatment.
The Magistrates had net discharged their duty in not drawing a
distinction between persons committed for safe custody, and
persons imprisoned after"trial.
Mr. O'CONNELL considered many of the regulations of
the gaol most vexatious, and trusted that the present case
would have the effect of causing these matters to be looked
into more closely than they would otherwise have been.
The conversation then dropped, and the House resolved
itself into

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Lord HOWICK said it was proposed to raise 5,395 men for
the purpose of augmenting the infantry of the line. The annual
expense would be 127,8001. The expenses of the first year
would however be 167,500/. He now moved that a vote of
75,000/. be granted up to 31st March next.
The Earl of DARLINGTON thought it would be less ex-
pensive and more efficacious to raise the same force from the
militia that the Noble Lord proposed to raise from the regi-
ments of the line.

Lord HOWICK said the course proposed would prove far
more economical. The force now proposed to be raised would
be available both for domestic and foreign service.
Mr. HUME considered if 5,000 men were to be raised, that
the most efficient, most economical, and most just course was
that which was proposed by the Noble Lord, the Secretary-at-
War.
Mr. DUNCOMBE hoped the increase now proposed would
not be permament.
Lord HOWICK said, if fortunately the necessity ceased,
the increase would be relinquished. He was as anxiouras any
one could be, to diminish the forces employed in the Colonies.
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 68,0001. for the Universities.
Sir J. GRAHAM asked why the grant of 8001. to the Glas-
gow University was discontinued in the present year for the
first time during a century.
Mr. BARING said the question was not decided, nor was
the omission of the grant from the present estimate to be con-
sidered final.
Sir R. PEEL said it was very dangerous to discontinue
grants of this kind.
The vote was then agreed to.
The House then resumed, the Report to be received on
Monday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved the Order of the Day
for the House going into Committee on the Birmingham Po-
lice Bill. He said he found the same difficulties existing in
Manchester, and unless the House interposed it would be with-
out a police during the settling of the question whether the Cor-
poration had the power to raise to raise a rate for the police.
He would therefore withdraw the present Bill, for the purpose
of introducing an amended one.
. Mr. HUME objected to the proceeding. Why not bring
in a declaratory Bill stating what was the object of the Noble
Lord in granting the Charter, or if the Charter- was not suffi-
cient, withdrawn it, but do not degrade these corporations by
taking by separate Bills all control of their own police from them.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the matter being now before a
Court of Law, there would be great difficulty in passing such
a Bill as the Hon. Member spoke of, and if fhe Government
did not interfere, neither Birmingham nor Manchester would
have any police for two years.
Mr. C. BULLER said he must oppose this plan as a dere-
liction of every principle of municipal government. He
wished to see an efficient police under the control of the local
authorities, and not under the control of the Executive Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) He must take the sense of the House
on the withdrawal of the original Bill.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Hon. Member for Liskeard, who
now objected to taking the police from local control, had con-
sented that the 8,000 police in Ireland should be taken from
local control and placed under an Inspector-General.—( Hear,
hear.) It was of great importance that a Court of Law should
determine whether the Corporation had the power of levying a
rate, and while that remained in doubt he thought the Noble
Lord was justified in the course he was pursuing.
Mr. GISBORNE objected to the proposal !of the Noble
Lord, and thought that he ought to have given more explana-
tion on the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that with respect to New-
castle and Stockport, where there were corporations which no
one disputed, the police were properly under the controul of
the authorities ; but in Birmingham and Manchester, so long
as there was any dispute as to the validity of the Charter,' it
was necessary to give some extraordinary remedy.
Mr. WAKLEY said the 10,0001. had been granted on the
understanding that it was applied by the local authorities, and
his intention had only been altered by the suggestion of the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite. He (Mr. Wakloy) would sug-
gest that: the Secretary of State ought to have the power to
appoint a Commissioner, in case the Corporation should not be
able to carry out the object.
Mr. P. THOMSON agreed with the Hon. :Member that
the appointment of the police ought to be left to the
locall al
authorities; but, the real question was, who were the
authorities ? He had no doubt that tho Town Council
decided
in but aeother party claimed it, and the question must b
in a Court of Law.—(Heay, hear.) In the mean
time, some
provision ought to be made to secure the peace of the towns to
which the measure applied.
hisAßlri.ghAtLHPolin.lLFlrPiePndS. concurred in alilethAaiteeheandebsteeernwstaas ted
mostby
effective, and there would be n-
The
aotfplty funds.t that
H suche
strongly a oolineeeed of the. military to quell
va-
luable disturbancesfor force s should be band
disbandedit woul d
fbeer
want
agre
supported the plan of the Noble Lord as the proper middle course
which would give a triumph to neitherparty
were
in the borough.
Mr. WARBURTON said no private rights , called in
question—the mere question was whether the legally
si consti-
tutedwasin:
Town Council had the power of levying rat
tended they should—why then not bring in a Bill to declare
what was the law ?
Lord CLEMENTS thought the proposition a Most un-
constitutional one he objected to the Government having
power over such a force. In Ireland the police force was
neither more nor less than an army, and were good or bad, ac-
cording to the complexion of the Government of the day.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, seeing that it was a matter of ne-
cessity, and that they had not, and conid not, raise a police
force, would agree to the proposition of
,the Noble
Lord.—( Hear, hear.) He could not help thinking, however,
that a stigma was cast upon the Town Council. He submit-
ted, as a matter. of necessity, and he trusted the experiment
would succeed, and be soon unnecessary.
Mr. THORNELY said • the whole of the difficul-
ties they were now in arose from the Noble Lord not per-
severing in. the Bill for giving Corporations to the large towns