The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-10 00:00:00

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plan for carrying that colonization into beneficial
eirfet should be devised. All he contended for was, that
8.,." ''thing must be done to put an end to a system which,
not checked, would multiply misery to an indefinite ex-
teat. Until, however, the (lay arrived when the labour-
in classts of the community should be convinced of the
truth of what he had stated, and that the misery of their
present situation, proceeding from redundancy, could be
removed only by removal, be was convinced that the Re-
presentative Body eou'd never take any sa,ut ,ry step. He
theretbre called on the intelligent part of that class of the
community, or the labourers and mechanics who had re-
ceived the benefits of education, arid who were competent
to the consideration, to investigate the subject,and to de-
termine if there was not truth in his statement, and where

the tmombers of the pepulatien were redundant, no legisla-
tire measure, no remission of taxes, or any other proceed-
ing wound of pUt down pauperism. In 1826, a
entail experiment had been tried at 31ancheater. In the
ye•r 1825, the popflivion of that town, 200,000 in num-
ber, was in a state of the greatest possible distress. The
richer inhabitants determined to give work to all, at low
wthltg"i• He had been told by an intelligent individual,
many persona supposed that there was a redundant
Population, others that there was no redundant
hut nothing certain war established on that point.
The people were put to work, however—they were taken
back into the general demand as they were required, and
at no very distant period they were all absorbed. No one
°mild deny that there was a great diffifenee between the
condition of the agricultural and the condition of the ma-
nufacturing population ; and that whereas the demand
for manual labour required in the former diminished, the
demand for manual labour required in the latter in-
evened. In agriculture the improved processes had oc-
essioned a greater prodece with lees manual labour ;
lint in mannfsetnres the improvement of machinery,
Were it not for the introduction of Irish labourers, would
have Greatly increased the demand for, and bettered the
condition of, the workmen. For the last thirty years,
however, the latter bad been kept down by the influx from
11*(4, land.
He could not avoid saying a few words on the
subject of the currency. Many Hon. Gentlemen ap-
lieut.(' to he of opinion that a change—a depreciation—
in our currency would operate to remove the national dis-
tress. Never, in the history of mankind, however, had the
depreciation of the value of the money of any country pro-
duced any thing but misery to the labouring classes. This
was undeniably true ; and ought to enter into all our con-
siderations when we were contemplating measures for the
relief of those classes. The people at large ought to know
that if, by a change of the standard, or by the introduc-
tion
"f Paper, money were depreciated 25 per cent., the
"nnequenee would be, that every shilling received by a
labourer or an artisan would be practicdly reduced in
value to ninepenee. It was true that time would afford
a slow remedy for this evil, and that wages would gradually,
increase in the proportion of from a shilling to one shil-
ling and threepence; bat it would be then, and then only,
that the situation of the labourer or of the artizan would
be upon a par with his situation before the depreciation of
the currency. When, therefore, he heard a depreciation of
the currency described as a mean+, of relief for the labour-
ing efaesies, he only wished that those who an described it
Would consider the subject a little, and they would per-
ceive that the sole tendency of such a depreciation would
be to benefit the debtor at the expence of the unfortunate
creditor. Ile protested, therefore, against such a proposi-
tion ; which, instead of relieving, would only add to the
distresses of the labouring classes, and would not add a
single grain of value to the wealth of the country. As to the
champs which haul already taken place in the currency,
he did not pretend to say that the landed interest had
not been affected by them. But if these changes were
now to be renewed, and all the evils attendant on the alte-
ration of the real terms of contracts were again to he pro-
(based, and that not only without benefitting, but very
much to the injury of the labouring classes of the com-
munity, such a proceeding would experience his entire
condemnation. Nor could the labouring classes derive time
slightest relief from any such remission of taxation as would
render it impracticable to keep up the necessary establish
ments of the country, and to preserve faith with the pub-
lic creditor. He should grossly deceive the people were
he to tell them that they must look for relief to such a
remission of taxation. There was another sound princi-
ple which he wished to inculcate on this subject. It was
impossible that any, remission of taxes could materially affect
the situation of the paupers. Those who had to dispense
charity might, certainly by a remission of taxes have their
means of, doing so increased ; but those who were to be
maintained out of that charity—in other words, the re-
dundant labouring population—must be benefitted to a
very small degree by the remission of taxation, since it
would not increase the amount of employment. He al-
luded especially to this part of the subject, because it had
been said that the remission of the Malt and Beer Tax
would do the pauper population good. It was impossible
to do that portion of population good while it remained
in a state of pauperisin, because its existence involved a
constant conipetition among the labouring population.
The remission of taxation could not reach those who were
in a state of actual pauperism, and a large class, both in
this country and in Ireland, were approximating to that
class. All he was anxious for was to excite attention to
the state of pauperisin. If any doubt remained on the
minds
.of Hon. Members, of the soundness of the doc-
trines which he had laid down, inquiry would convince
there that that doubt was unfounded. If he were suc-
cessful in his motion, and were allowed t , bring the sub •
jest before a Committee; the propositions which he should
be prepared to maintain; and which he would endeavour
to prove, would be as follows
" 1. That the sums raised and applied for the relief of the poor
In England and Wales, though mainly bearing on one particular
class of fhe community—viz, the landed interest—ought to be
considered, after the deduction of that portion which would
otherwise be paid as wages, as much in the nature of a tax as any
of those taxes which are to be found in the balance-sheet of the
revenue and expenditure of the country.
" 2. That if a pauper population, for whose labour there is no
real demand, can be prosperously colonized (with their own con_
trepr atless expenee than would be necessary to be incurred for
maintenance in the mother country, a national outlay for
the purpose of such colonization ought to be considered as en
economy rather than as an expence
" 3. That if a redundant itopulatiolwterebretml7teled
danger
effort of colonization, there
be apprehended from what is called't7 filling but
of the vaactium '
" 4. That if the United Kingdom weree relievedp from its redun-
dant labourers—that is, those labourers for whose labour no real
and natural
patueraladnernand exists in society—the remaining labourers
Permanently remain in a state of comparative comfort and
independence
uns..l 'hat is expedieat to effect such reparation and abstrac-
o
forced from unforced labour as would accurately' measure
the r
extent of the redundancy.
their. That to enable parishes to raise money von mortgage of
Poor-rates for a period of years—such capital being spec,-
fically ap
who mayP towards the emigration of voluntary candidates
bc—wgulder independence in the colonies to pauperism at
wrest be a measure highly favourable to the landed in-
as _That.in the event of home colonization, the ratio of danger
to the filling up of the vacuum must be double as compared
icttliforeign colonization.
ft if the vacuum were to be filled up, the policy of a
measure o colonisation must be governed by a comparison of the
fkinnelentt of the expence of maintaining the new pauper popu_
tuov w
h the decrement of the expence of maintaining the re-
rnulation, supposing them to have remained at home.
fteth: That Vhere are no means of producing wealth more effec-
e combination of an able-bodied population, with un-
cultivated land of the first degree of fertility.
- " That independently
.and ea in , Independently of the special advantage to the
• srcayediu
sucst, and to the labouring classes, the expenditure in-
itteill).,*dici:lToealotreer ocflacsosionizateiosr:inwgopuriodpneorttyb%in Teizy.de-
neeetialiV4 a pauper, while he re3csontinues a pauper, receives
4141°1100r r.„are subsistence, he can neither stiffer from
That the "e!ed by its remission.
flit Purpose 0. ppheation of any portion of surplus revenue for
rn th,. home r raising a
eettitnunit
Poor, :would employment,
capital to be applied in the first instance
and secondly, in the colonisation of the
be more beneficial to the labouring dames of the
of poi, than if the same sum were applied to the reduction
sateoZougenbktor in the remission of any class of taxes to the
An ex •
Hoult ,1 anunation would enable him to convince the
only,, ••hat what he bad stated was the fact; and then
1,, when the House were really disposed to make the
ttbleP.,%.4l3ent, would they be affording substantial relief to
labouring and suffering classes of the country. He
tiegitgeel..to. offer to the house his best thanks for the atten-
no With 'Which they had heard him, and be would now
farther trouble them then by quoting an aphorism of
Lim aeon,
who
but was the enemy of colonisation in gene-
•t. whom he considered the best defender of the
principle which he had endeavoured to recommend to the
iii
_:rcee• Lord Bacon had said, " Things will alter for the
ee*Punt"mualb
if they arc not remedied decidedly;
• then
11110 can say what will be the end of the evil_?"
441:4s:tele
.manner he would say, that if things were not
peedily and decidedly, they would go on getting
7°17 eAnntaneously, and there would be no end of the
evil The population would be unemployed—distress
,w Id increase ; and if a year passed on without Mem-
bers
bog
convinced of the truth of what he had said,
no otherPeodmweLnuldrearrive when they would see there, was
.
and then they would couldfe el the mortification etrliteificianttieonnsitoyf oftleevil
disappoint-
ment, until opinion universally pointed us to the true re-
. mfeeed/r7eotodtehscartibesvl:ich he had endeavoured, though in-Ter-
Mr
Hon, 'F'Peit:4ll.dTAN, in seconding the motion of his Right
portance , Vlthe:lido:hat he considered it of the utmost im-
convinced that
timesliorr oheinitiein
pethrasto
the redundancy
classes of the country. lie was
is
of the •
redundancy of the labouring population
Was the great cause of their distress. That feet was
eatmetyoundtuyrionfgDtohresetE.astlenr trleiceesashonrot
less than 370
it their families means of going Out nwai itTPlied to him to procure them the
for they
were all to the Swan River,
run.
Ibe out the means of procuring a
" nos. Gintleulaa wide Ann.

visions of the panrer classea of this country. He thought

he could make two divisions that, would be as nearly ac-
curate as those of the Hight Honourable Gentleman.—
He should, he sail, divide them into poor and paupers:
_ _

Of the whole of this country the portion north o
Warwick, or, perhaps, north of the Thames, might be
stated to be that in which the majority of the people were

poor ; while in that portion of the kingdom south of War-
wick, or south of the Thames, the majority of the people
were paupers. Mr. Burke bad truly said, that to attempt
to ostahli,da a maximum or minimum of wages was mie-

ehievoua in the extreme, for labour was a commodity, and
every interference with the laws of bitch for fueli a pur-
pose must be injurious to it. The profits of labour, not the
subsistence of the labourer, was the object of the agricul-
turalist, and the hbouring classes were, therefore, only
fully employed when their employment would afford a
profit to the men who engaged them. Unfortunately, in

such a population every married man was an evil, for the
market for labour was regulated by the bachelors, and the
married men must descend to their terms, for the bachelor
could nut rise to that of the nvirried man. The evils of tam_
pering with this subject aro,e from the endeavour to legis-
late for each parish, and he thought,there ought to be one
reaeral measure, declaring that in each parish the will of
t]T majority of rate payers assembled in vestry should bin!
the minority. The laws of settlement should be altered,

and then only would the labourer have the means of carrv-
his labour to a free market. He recommended that a
small portion of land should be given to each pauper, and
he was convinced that the poors' rates wou'd then be ►nate-

rially diminished. It happened to him lately to be present ,
at a Quarter Sessions, where two persons were indieted for
stealing haulm or bean-stalk. The object for which this was
wanted was to procure a litter for the pigs; and in the one
instance the Jury refused to convict, because they said the
practice of stealing hauhn for such a purpose was universal
in the county. In the second case, they did convict, but
the man was strongly recommended to mercy on the same
ground. If men were allowed a small piece of land, they
could themselves cultivate this litter which they were now
unable to buy, and which it seemed they were cotnpellsd to
steal. He knew, however, that what he now proposed
could not be adopted without a chilge in the law of settle-
ment. Ile proposed to keep the currency out`of the quea-
thm, for it would only excite a difference of opinion, and
he trusted that something would soon he done.
Mr. J. SMITH supported -the plan of giving each
, pauper a small portion of land. He had done ao to a
certain extent in the eastern division of Sussex, and the
result was most satisfactcry. He bad allotted to a number
of poor persons rather more than one acre each, and not
only were they kept from demanding parish assistance,
hut, beyond hid utmost expectations, the result had been
to him most beneficial, and the rates of the parish were
reduced nearly one-half. If, instead of this, individuals
were compelled, as they were in many parts of England,
to work on the roads at 6d. and Bd. a day, and to sleep
in barns and out-houses, there could he no wonder that
they forgot their duty to society, and that if temptation
was offered them they fell into the commission of crime.
He implered the attention of the House upon the subject.
Mr. BENETT could not agree with the Right Hon.
Gentleman as to many of the principles Ile had stated,
Among the rest he could not possibly concur with what
the flight Honourable Gentleman had said respecting the
currency. Ile did not wish to introduce that question
unnecessarily into this discussion, but he must make one
observation upon what the Right Hon. Gentleman had
said. He was not a friend of depreciated currency; but
he could not help thinking that the adoption of the pre-
smt currency had taken from a number of persons con-
nected with the productive classes of society the same
means of emplcying the labour of men that they before
peesiessed. He thought, therefore, if there was a limited
return to our former currency there would be greater
means of employment, and consequently a greater demand
for labour. He must confess that he was quite astonished
when he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman say that the
reduction of taxation could have no effect on the labouring
poor. Why the reduction of taxation would afford in-
creased means of consumption to the higher and middle
dosses, and consequen ly increased opportunity of employ-
ment to the labouring poor. Without these things, he was
convinced that emigration would afford but very little re-
lief ; for though many might be removed, numbers would
soon spring up to till up their vacant places in the class to
which they had belonged. In a parish near him a Clergy-
man had neatly done away with the poor rates by appoint-
ing the glebe land for the poor to cultivate. This could
not be done to a sufficient extent to relieve the whole
country; but relief might be effected by a return to the
former currency—by a diminution of all the taxes that
pressed upon country labour.

Mr. COURTENAY thought it would he extremely un-
advisable to go into a Committee, which would occupy
time without any expectation of coining to any practical
result. He hail one still higher ground to object to a
Committee, as it would be an abuse to the country to ap-
point any Committee to take into consideration the state of
the labouring poor, unless the House felt confident that that
Committee would he able to devise something which would
administer to the suffering classes extensive relief. He
agreed with the Right lion. Gent, that there had been a
great redundance of the labouring poor, but he could not
bring himself to believe that that redundance had been
caused by the poor-rates. He had come to this result in
his reflections, that all the House could do would be to
amend the Poor Laws ; and if that was not sufficient, then
to have recourse to emigration. But to neither of these
ohjrcts did a Committee appear to him to be the most de-
sirable mode of proceeding. Th• Right Hon. Gent. ap- '
proved of the Bill introduced by the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury, and had proposed Amendments, which he
thought a better mode of proceeding than what the Right
Lion. Gent. now wished. Ha had said that of the many
Committees not one had produced any-good ; but he (Mr.
Courtenay) must remind him of one exception—for one
Committee had produced a Bill which had certainly checked
the progress of the Poor Rates. The evil of the Poor Rates
had not increased in any thing like the proportion that hail
been expected twelve or thirteen years ago. There was
not a single term used by the Right Hon. Gent., respect-
ing the impossihility of the country continuing to go on as
it had dose, which had not been used and applied in the

same manner for a century and a half. The Right Hon.
Gent. wished to know how much of the Poor Rates were
paid to those who were willing to labour but could not get
work, and he had recommended a classification of paupers,
hut neither of which objects were proper to he debated in a
Committee. If a Committee upon the subject were to con-
sist of 35 Members, he was sure there would be 34 plans
and a half started, and to be debated. The letting of lands
to labourers would be facilitated by the Bill then in the
House, which gave a power to parishes to let out land for
the employment of the poor. He could only say that
whatever improved the prosperity of the country must im-
prove the condition of the people; but it would be impos-
sible to get rid of the poor altogether, unless they could
bare a constant progressive prosperity without any check,
and keeping pace with the increase of the population. The
Right Hon. Gentleman's Resolutions were a sort of rea-
soning pamphlet, and he could not expect any Committee
to come to his Resolutions—they would cause an endless
discussion. He would recommend the Right lion. Gen-
tleman to abandon his measure, and proceed with his Bill
for Emigration.
Mr. SLANEY acknowledged the services rendered by
the Right Hon. Gent. in bringing the subject before the
country, and there never was a period which more impe-
ratively called upon the House as a matter of policy and
duty to consider the question. It had now been a period
of fifteen years of reace ; and instead of having improved
the condition of the labouring classes of the community,
the peasantry or the southern counties of England had de-
cidedly deteriorated. Mansions had been built, and riches
spread throughout the land ; the higher classes possessed
enjoyments which they had not possessed before, and the
middle classes had enjoyments which their forefathers had
not; but the working classes, by whose labour they ob-
tained their enjoyments, instead of. advancing with the
progress of civilization, bad deteriorated. No man who
looked to the consequences could contemplate the effects of
this. Was .not this a case to call on Government, and
upon that House, calmly and sedulously, but firmly and
steadily, to look at once at the nature and extent of the
evil, and at its probable consequences. The great body
of the working classes might be divided into two sets per-
fectly distinct—he meant the agricultural and manufactur-
ing population ; but of the latter it was not his intention
to say a single word. With reference to the peasantry, they
might be divided likewise into two classes, perfectly and
clearly distinct from each other. An Hon. Member had
spoken of the redundancy of the population, which cer-
tainty might exist in the South. of England, but it could
not be said to exist in the Northern counties. Tne great-
est distinction existed between the southern and northern
parts of the kingdom, as much, indeed, as between the
people of any two distinct kingdoms ; and it was for the
House to trace the causes of the difference. In twenty
counties of the North the poor were well off, with plenty of
work and good pay for their labour, and the parish rates
were lower than in the South; whilst in the South there
was (IR immense body of the poor depressed and de,grad, I,
as compared with their brethren of the North. The poor
rates in .he county of Sussex were as high as 7s. in the
pound, whilst in the Ncrtli they did not exceed Is. 6d. Iu
the North the poor laws had kept to their original inten-
tion, whilst in Sussex they bad been wrested completely
6 from their yurpoee. Tia the North ugly ouc penes; ita forty

applied for relief out of the rate',v.,ll3.t in Sussex the
proportion was as one to three. la 1793, the price of
food to the poor man w is proprarti,wate ta his wa,:re,, but
now there was a new era. In tha interim, the prices of
wages and food had oscillated ; wheat in one year had
varied from 608. to 1.50:. the quarter. It had been
utterly impossible in those years for the:labonrir.g man to
support hitrisel, and in the north the temporary expedi-
ent of subscriptions had been resorted to ; wEilst iu the
south the expedient ha sheen resorted to to pay the wag„ „f
labour partially out of the poor rates ; and of all schemes
ever invented, never had there been one more detrimental.
A scale of these drafts from the poor rates had been fixed
according to the prices of bread. This had commenced
in Sussex. Was not Government bound to consider the
effects of this system? A few years no the prnpor:ion
of poor in this kingdom had been as one in twelve ; soon
after as one in nine; soon after as one in seven ; and now
he believed it to be as one to six. Ile could re'er to docu_

ments to prove that throughout this kingdom one person
in six received aid from the parish. The period which
had produced this was that of the oscillations; but, now
that th., cause ha,7l passed away, why not revert to the old
practice ? In the Northern Counties the poor labourer
received twelve shillings a-week, whilst in the South he
received five or six ; and yet it was infinitely cheaper to
pay a man good wages, and to acquire all his enere,ics
and exertions ; for when the peasantry .were degraded
they were lost to the country and to thetwelveg. It was
both the policy and the duty of the landlord to elevate the
humbler clases. The Report of the Cammittee of ISIS
hail stated in the most plain manner what h,d been the
cause of the abuse of the poor laws in the South of England.

Fire different Committees had agreed in the same opinions,

and they had recommended the same remedies; namely, to
go back gradually and cautiously to the system of the poor
Taws which had existed before the abuses bad been intro-
duced. They had the experience of various parishes which
had returned to those laws- with the happiest effect. The
success bail been uniform, and where wages had increased
pauperism had diminished. It was in consequence of the
abuses of the Poor Laws that the redundancy of the popu-
lation existed in the South of England ; but all remedies
were useless that did not tend to restore the proportion be-
tween employment aryl capital. But all that was neces-
sary was to take away the:existing stimulants to popula-
tion, and to leave the natural laws which regulated popu-
lation to their own operation. The poor would be then
inure industrious and cautious, and take better care of
themselves. The Right Hon. Gentleman oppodte (Mr.
Peel) was not insensible to the sufferings of the multitude;
and he saw the necessity of assisting the classes that were
distressed and degraded, and it was evident that unless
something was done, the country would go on from worse
to worse. Turn which way they would, from the House
in which they then were—go into whatever county or
place they would round the metropolis, it would be found
that one person in every four or five was a pauper. The
noble palaces—the splendid mansions that surrounded them
—stood upon an insecure foundation and a tottering base
if the poor were degraded. He ;believed there was only
one feeling in that House upon the subject, and that was
to improve by every possible means the condition of the
poor, and that was acknowledged to be the only way to
spread happiness, and to diminish that frightful catalogue
of crimes which had increased of late years, and which
was the necessary consequence of the destitute and degraded
condition of the lower orders.
Mr. E. DAVENPORT denied that there was an over-
populatiOn in the country ; and he thought it would require
great abilities to show that a country, capable of producing
subsistence for all its inhabitants, and even capable of
producing double what is now produced (were agriculture
hut improved), could be overpeopled by its present popu-
lation. The chain which had connected capital and labour
had been dissolved ; but no person Fad a right to arraign

the wisdom of Providence, until lie had found out that he
could entirely exculpate the fully of man. Providence
might have made man with less folly, end which would
have dissolved the argument. He would only say a word
as to the proposed remedy by exporting part of the popula-
tion. When the numbers had been thus thinned in Ire-
land, for instance, what security was there that the vacuum
would not be soon supplied? and certainly there was no
country of the world that had a better reputation than Ire-
land for multiplying the species with rapidity.
Sir F. BURDETT—If the Right Hon. Mover had not
yet made much way in his project, he had at least now
succeeded to the extent of persuading the House that the
subject was worth consideration. Nevertheless, he could
not yet encourage him with the expectation of a beneficial
or speedy result. He wished particularly to avoid the
question of the currency, how far it had had an effect in
occasioning the redundant population ; and he should
therefore only say, generally, that on this point he was in-
clined to agree with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. W. Hor-
ton). As to filling the vacuum to be occasioned by emi-
gration, it seemed to him that nothing was more easy
than to prevent a rapid increase, when once the numbers
were thinned. In the same way, it was easy at any time
to stimulate population, but not so easy to revocare pro-
duct, and to lessen it after it had been so stimulated.—..
There was the difficulty—and hence arose the question,
what was to be done with the present superabundant popu-
lation? The existence of that superabundance must, for

a time, produce great suffering arid misery ; and whether
it was or was not the fault of the Legislature, there the
people were, and the country was bound to provide for
them, and could not allow them to starve. Tice great
feature of the subject was Ireland—get rid of what he
might call the annual Irish invasion—of the competition of
the Irish peasantry with the labourers of England—and
the latter would be left in comparatively easy and comfor-
table circumstances. The Irish were an honest and an in-
dustrious people, and they had a full right to bring their
labour to the best marker. While the Irish peasant could
obtain more for his labour here than in his own country, he
must and would come; arid the necessary consequence was,
that the English peasant mos reduced very much to the
same condition. Thus in truth, and in fact, the English
country gentleman had his estates burthened to provide for
the poor of Ireland.—(Hear.)—In Berkshire, the mere
passing of the Irish poor in a single year had cost from 12
to 1400/. The question was, was there any effectual re-
medy for this great evil? He was sorry his Right Hon.
Friend b ad involved himself in such a complication of Re-
solutions, containing many posieons upon which no two
men perhaps could be found to agree : the more his Right
Honourable Friend had advanced into his subject, the more
contracted his views seemed to be; and it would have been
far better if he had limited himself to his original general
and simple proposition—that it was expedient to send part
of the redundant population to the Colonies. As the mo-
tion now stood, it would lead to no beneficial practical re-
sult—whereas, if his Right Honourable Friend had
brought in a Bill to carry his intenti.ns into effect, a sub-
stantive proposition would have been made upon which the
Legislature would have been called upon to decide. At
present the estates of Irish gentlemen were hot-beds of
population, and this was an evil that loudly called for re-
medy. In order that England might continue the sphere
of laudable enterprise, he wished to get rid of those who
were merely burdensome; they might be removed with ad-
vantage to all parties to some of our magnificent colonies,
the chief difficulty being to determine of the good which
were the best. The exportation of a comparatively small
number would have a great effect upon those who were
left behind; as a small overplus of any commodity depre-
ciated it greatly, so a small overplus of popula-
tion caused an accumulation of misery. The subject of
relief could be no topic of dispute—all were anxious to
accomplish one end ; amicable discussion might lead to the
most beneficial results, and Minister. would be grateful for
any useful suggestions. He would confine the view of the
House simply to the point, whether it was not possible to
remove to the Colonies a large portion of the population of
Ireland, and of Ireland alone ? In that country there were
no poor rates ; and as the present management of Irish
estates produced the evil, a rate, not in the nature of a
poor-rate, might perhaps be levied upon them, to aid in
the accomplishment of the object. Tie could not agree
with his Hon. Fm iend (Mr. J. Smith), that to give every
poor man an acre of ground would remedy the evil. First,
how would it be possible to give every poor man an acre
of ground? And, secondly, if it were given, was not that
the very system that had prevailed in Ireland, and which
had occasioned the redundant population?—(Hear.)—
What had happened in Ireland would then happen in
England ; and the mischief, instead of being amended,
would be multiplied. There were two ways by which the
lower orders might be benefited. Ist. By giving them
higher wages ; 2d. By reducing their numbers—though
the second was, in fact, only another mode of ac-
complishing the first. Then as to the introduction of
machinery, it was undoubtedly true that it might for a
time throw hands out of employ, but in the end the in-
crease of the branch of trade in which machinery was
used would require the active exertions of many more men
than had in the outset been temporarily injured,—
(Hear.)--When he talked of a rate for Ireland, he was
ready to admit that the subject deserved grave considera-
tion ; colonization must be attended with a heavy expence ;
but it would not be enormous if those parishes that were
relieved contributed their due share towards the attain-
ment of relief. From the effect of those contributions the
parties would soon recover when once the superabundant
population was remot ed. He hoped that his Right Hon.
Friend would not press his motion to the division, because
it would lead to no beneficial practical result.
Sir G. gURRAY...-He ebould only ifia very few o•

ervationß, iu eorv,•crlencc chiefly of what had Olen from
the Hon. Barone', to whom he had listened now, •as

.......
always, with feat satimfaction. He concurred entirely
with what his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. W. Horton) had
.aid on the subject of emigration to the colonies: that
opinion was not new to him, fort he had entertained it
when he wts in the Canadas, and lie had stated it in a
r he then drew up. for the better defence, of those
ovirv.es. theu4ht now as he had thought then, that

the only certain and permanent means of providing for
the defence of the Canadas was by directing to them a

stream of population from the mother country, attached
to her interests, and resolved to maiatlin her possessions.
The difficulty of holding out much encouragement on the

of emigration arose from the strong prevailing dis-
position in favo❑r of it. If much encouragement were

given, that disposition would be increa,ed to a dangerous,

or at least to an injurious extent. With a view practi-
cally to protn,:te this benefit, ho had turned Lis mind wilh

great attention to tl4c question—aryl the mide in which
he thouJit the object might be obtained •.vag
by establishing in the colonies themselves a well-con,i-

tiered systcm, with reference to the grant of land, ;nil
then by degrees, when that system was brought to matu-
rity, to es•ahl'sh in some of the .ports of this kingdom

agents, to whom persons desirous of sending out emigrants
might luldres6 themselves, in or.ler to fiteilitate or pro-

vide passages, and to make 'those arrangements in de-
tail which landud proprietins, societies, Or parishes,
would find it difficult to make themselves.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)--But in consider:ng this plan, it had
always appeared to him impracticable for the mantes
to go to any large expenee in order to convey
emigrants to our North American Colonies, for in-
stance. Therefore, in order to give a commencement
to the plan, wi.en applied to, lie hail I.•ehd out that on the
arrival of the emigrants in the provinces, they would re-

ceive land free from Pny expense hut the usual fees on

making the grant. • The outline of the plan was this :
That those who came out with money ready to make pur-
chases of land, should be provided with it ; tat those who
on coming out required no assisanc•e,hut at the same time,
were net able to pay for the land, should have it on di,
charging the ordinary fe2s for the survey, &c. ; a third class
were those whO came cut and required aid, and, besides
having their -land free of any expense, it was doubtful
whether it might not be fit to Rive them assistance in the
first instance in the erection of log houses. 'Whatever was
done caution was necessary, or such a tide of population
might be poured into the province:, as would overflow the
country and be attended with great inconvenience. Ile
stated these views to show that he had not neglected the
important subject, and he would only add one word as to
the invasion from Ireland of which the Hon. Baronet had
spoken : that was, that in his opinion, the most certain,
and he might say, the most legititnate mode, of getting rid
of that evil was, by promoting the prosperity of Ireland.
He would conclude by merely adver'ing to what he had
already done to carry into effect a plan of emigration. The
Duke of Hamilton had applied to him on behalf of some
persons who wished to emigrate from his estates : land
had been given them for the mere expense of the survey—
the settlers were sent out, and they had been provided for
to their 'entire satisfaction. A similar application had
been made by the Hon. Member ix Ludgershall with re-
ference to emigration from Ireland, and to him I replied,
that I was ready to act on the same principles that had
guided me with respect to the settlers from the estates of
the Duke of Hami:ton.

Mr. BARING had always been of opinion, from the

time he was a Member of the Committee, that relief might
be given •by emigration, and it was the interest of
parishes in the southern parts of the kingdom, which
were suffering so severely under the Poor Laws, to con-
tribute to this desir►ble end. Those who in-this country
were in a state of abject pauperism, in the Colonies were
in a condition of comparative comfort. Only tw•o re-
medies worth consideration had been suggested—the one
wa■ Emigration, and the other an alteration of the Poor
Laws, reverting to what bad been properly called a sound
action of that system of enactments. The transition from
one state to the other •was the difficulty; and if the poor-
rates were supplied only to the aged and infirm, and an op-
portunity were afforded to the young and able-bodied to
proceed to the Colonies, much might thus he accomplished
for the benefit of this kingdom ; and the danger from a
transition would thus be materially lessened. It behoved
Government, then, at the present moment, to determine
whether it would make the experiment, and not be satis-
fied,- Session after Session, with one or two debates on the
subject, which ended in no practical measure. For himself
he was ready to try the plan, and thus to attempt to get
rid of a considerable part of the surplus population.
Colonel O'GRADY denied that in Ireland there was a
redundant population if the waste land were brought into
a proper state of tillage ; and he maintained that England
had no right to complain of what was termed the Irish
invasion, because the absentee Nobility and Gentry spent
in this country much more than the Irish peasantry took
away.
Lord ALTHORP thought that a Committee of the
whole House—not fin• the purpose of examining witnesses,
for that would be absurd, but for the purposes of discus-
sion—usight lie attended with very beneficial effects. He
thought certainly that no new measure ought to be intro-
duced affecting the state of the people, or applying to the
administration of the Poor Laws, which would not have

the effect of making those who contracted imprudent mar-
riages at an early period of life, find themselves in a worse
situation than if they had exercised a greater degree of
foresight and discretion.
Mr. A. BARING explained.
Mr. SLANEY observed, that the great principle of
the Poor Laws ought to be, to find employment for the
able-bodied labourer.

Mr. HUME disapproved of fees on emigration. If one
class of emigrants paid rees, surely the others ought—the
principle of exemption should not be confined in its operation.
Sir G. MURRAY said he had given directions to dimi-
nish the fees as much as possible.
Lord SANDON made a remark which was not au-
dible ; and
Mr. W. HORTON rose to reply. He said it was the
duty of the House to assert distinctly whether or not it was
prepared to relieve the country from the effects of that re-
dundant population now pressing upon its resources. It
was indisputable that the population of Ireland, as corn-
pared with the demand for labour, was prodigiously re-
dundant, and he saw no means of relief from that redun-
dancy that could be at all considered effectual except those
which he had recommended, and which he should feel it his
duty to continue to recommend notwithstanding the apathy
with which they appeared to be received. It was in vain to
talk of the Colonial Secretary affording facilities for emigra-
tion—be had not sufficient funds at his disposal. He (Mr.
\V. H.) was told to bring in Bills. He could very easily bring
in Bills, but they would prove of little use, enless there were
money t• carry their provisions into effect. Bills without
money were but so much waste paper. The House
might rest assured that 1,000,000/. applied to the pur-
poses of emigration would do more good than reduction of
taxation to that amount which could possibly be effected.
He knew the House received with distaste much of what
he thought it his duty to say upon that subject; but lie
should persevere—more for the effect that might be pro-
duced out of doors, than for anything he hoped to. effect
within the walls of that House. He hoped that the influ-
ence from without would urge the energetic means for rid-
ding the country of the incubus of population by which it
was oppressed—means for spreading English feelings and
English institutions over the fertile plains of the new
world. He should feel great pleasure in consenting to
withdraw his present motion for a Committee, and he was
determined soon again to bring the subject under the con-
sideration of the House, either by moving a Resolution or
by introducing a Bill, when he should take the sense of the
House upon a distinct question, whether or not they would
look at the difficulties of the country with a view to
provide an adequate remedy for the existing evil ?-1110-
tion withdrawn.
LEGAL REFORMS.—WELSH JUDICATURE.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that in rising to
bring forward his motion on this subject at so late an
hour of the night (nearly one o'clock), it was not his in-
tention to occupy the time of the House beyond that which
would be necessary for a brief statement of the general
nature of the alterations which his bill would propose.
The House would bear in mind that this measure formed a
part of those judicial regulations which were alluded to
in the speech from the throne at the commencement of
the session. The bill for which be should wave might be
considered in two parts; the object of the first being the
general principle of assimilating the administration of jus-
tice in England and Wales, and the measures of detail by
which greater facilities would be afforded for carrying the
first into effect. To do this it would be necessary to en-
large the machinery, in order to secure greater despatch,
The common law of the two countries was administered
Judges-12 for England, and 8 for Wales. The
bflyrs:o step would be to reduce that number to 15 ; thereby
removing 5 from our judicial establishment ; but not only
would these appointments be an ultimate saving to the
country, but the offices attached to several of the courts
would also be removed. He mentioned this in justice to
Government, which, in consenting to forego so large a
share of patronage as this would involve, most clearly
evinced that their •nly object in the proposed alterations
was the benefit of the community. With respect to the
nmnber. of Judges, it was well-known that, at different
periods,it vanes cooiderabip At mu time it will ISI a$

others 15, IG, and 17, hat, for the last 100, or be might
says 130 years, the number had been limited ; and it was
remark dile that this comp,tratively small number bad des-
Pl'el'ed a grelter shnre of public business than was per-
form d IT the JtuhT4 of any other country in the world.
The way in which he 01°161 propo..! the addition to the
iuesent windier in England It-olld he to a l i Goe to each of
thc common law ceor:•. Oiw of the five of which each

court would then consist would have to sit at chambers, take
bail, and do the other business out of court, which one or

the Judges in each court now usually performed in term. It
would be a matter of regulation atnonst the Judges them-
selves, which of them should attend to the chamber busi-
ness in the term ; but it was the intention of the Bid that
Only three puisne Judges should sit at on, time with th,
Chief Judge in each Court, the number of fmr loving
been found, from long experience, to be that which wa,
most convenient, and to which, as havin.2 been most ac..

eustorned to it, the public looked with the greatest
faction. It wag also intended that while the four Judee-

sat in bunco, the other Judge should sit at nisi print
whic•.h would have the good effect of facilitating the des-
patch of business, and also prevent the necessity of Navin
the Chief Judge of the respective Courts, who u'sual!y
took the nisi pries cases, leave the Court 01) certain days
in term, therehy often ocoasirming much delay to the busi-
ness Of term. In this way alone there would be a saving
of two days in each tern ~ The Bill would also propose

at alteration with respect to the length of the terms. At
present !some inconvenience was fit from the periods at
which they commenud. Miclmelmas Term bogan nn the
_ _

6th of November, and ended on the 29th ;• Hilary began
on the 2311 of January, and ended on thel2th of February;
Easter began this year on the 2Sth of April, and ended on
the 21,dt of May ; and Trinity on the 11th of June, and
ended the 30th. The time for holding Easter Term was,
of course, variable, as it began on the We:lnes:lay fort
night after Easter day. When be was first aequ minted
with the prae'iee of Westminster Hall, a much longer
time was allowed for TaeAtion, and that before the
Michaelmas Term was much longer than at 'resent,
bu

__ for the last tea years the attention which
,arristers were obliged to give from the increased num-
,er of days duriitz which the Courts s:t, left too little
_ime for that relaxation, and for that which was so lin-
pirtant to the profession for study. In stating this, he of
course meant to cast no imputation on the Noble auJ
Learned Judge who presided in the Court to which he
'note particularly alluded. No man c nrld feel a greater
respect for UNA Noble Lord than be did, awl no man was
more impressed with the constant and unremitting atten-
tion which Le gave to business, even to the risk of hisown
health. Yet with the great attention which he bestowed,
the business of the Court had got into arre-ar, and that
arrear was-on the increase. The measures which had
been introduce•! by the Noble and Learned Lord for fic:-
litating the de•patch of business in the Courts had not suc-
ceeded. The first measure was soon after repealed, and the
second,—that for enabling three of the Judges to sit in
banco out of the term to discharge the arrear of term lit-

siness, was also unsuccessful. Indeed, it could not he
otherwise ; for it was a Court without a bar and without
an audience, and was not looked to by the public with
that feeling of satisfaction which was so necessary to bring
to it the business which was taken to the Court in term.
The changes which he should propose would be—first, that
Michaelmas Term should begin on the 2d of November,
and end on the 21th. This would give time fur the di,-

charge of nisi Arius business for one—month up to Christ—
mas. There would then be a short vacation until the com-
mencement of Hilary Term, which would begin on the
Sth of January, and end on the 28th. By this arrange-
ment two days which, by Act of Parliament, were dies
non in our Law Gmrts, would be excluded, and so much
saved for the business of the term. lie would limit the

. -
sitting after Hilary Term to one month, as about that time
the circuits would begin. Generally speaking the circuits
were at an end the first week in April; he would there-
fore fix Easter Term for the 15th of that month, and after
sitting for 24 days, there would he a larger time allowed,
as an interval between Easter and Trinity than at present
occurred. Of this term he would only allow one week fur

;he sitting of the Court. Ile es° proposed that the Couri
11,:ulti sit only for a month after Trinity, which wool,

leave about two months from the circuits to the Michael-
mas Term. There were other points in the Bill to which
he would not then go, which would give greater facilities
to the Judges for transacting business in chambers, and
also for trying causes, by which greater expedition would
he insured. It would be a niost important thing to ad-

vance any step towards some equalization of the business
of the Courts. It was not his intention to propose any al-
teration in the forms of business in the Court—any
change which it might be necessary to make in this way
would he the subject of separate legislative enactment ; but
one point which his Bill embraced he did not wish to pass
over. This point was, that there should be no arrest on
mesne process for any sum under 1001., unless upon spe-
cial affidavit made before a Judge, stating peculi kr
circumstances on which the Judge would have dis-
cretionary power. This would in itself greatly di-
minish the number of arrests. His reason for fixing the
sum at 1001. was, that no man would be likely to leave
the county to get r:d of the obligation to pay such a sum,
and yet it was necessary to fix a limit somewhere. It was
well known that peculiar species of personal property,—
such as property in the funds,—was not liable to be taken
in execution, and persons in debt with such property 'eight
go off to another county and live there, receiving the
dividends, and secure from their creditors. He had fixed
the sum at the amount stated, which, as he said, would
greatly check the number of arrests ; for though many
persons might think it desirable that the law should be
wholly abolished, he did not think that the time was yet
arrived when it could be done with safety. It would in no
very long time be seen how this limitation of the law
worked, and he had no doubt that the change would be
received with satisfaction by the country.—(Hear.)—
In making changes each as his Bill proposed, much
roust be done at first as a matter of compromise ;
and if we could not get all the good we wished at
'once, we should en leavour to get as much as was
within our immediate reach.—(Hear, bear.)—Many
might think he had not gone far enough in some points,
but he had endeavoured to achieve as much as he could
With respect to the Court of Great Sessions of Wales,
other opportunities would occur for going into the subject
more in detail. He would now confine himself to stating
that it was intended to abolish the jurisdiction of th it
Court, and assimilate the practice to that in England.
The law was the same in the two countries—the difference
lay in the triode of administration. As the Court of Great
Sessions would be abolished, it would be necessary to send
two Judges on an additional circuit. On this subject, of
nicking a change in the Welsh circuits, it was hie wish to
do every thing which would make it as agreeable as pos-
sible to the inhabitants of, that part of the country. He
had heard what had fallen from an Hon. Friend near him
on this subject in the early part of the evening, and he
could assure him that it was his desire to meet the wishes
of the people of Wales in this respect, as far as he could
could consistently with the principle of the alteration. It
was hardly necessary for him to say that the granting of
commissions of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery was the
prerogative of the Crown, and that the Crowa could grant
such commissions to be held at any time or place, and ex-
tending its jurisdiction over such places as it might deem
proper. This matter, therefore, of the extent of circuits
was a matter which he thought would be much better left
for decision by his Majesty by the advice of his Privy
Council, than be brought for discussion in that
House ; and the more particularly so, as the House
could act on the subject only by legislating ;
and any measure they. might introduce for fixing the
time, place, or extent of a circuit, must be the subject of
an Act of Parliament, which could be altered only by
another act. In the Privy Council, any regulations that
might be made by the Crown, if they were found incon-
venient, or required amendment, could be rectified in a
more summary and speedy manner. He was aware, as
had been stated by an Hon. Friend near him, that in the
first report of the Commissioners on this subject, they re-
commended a division of counties, in the arrangement re-
specting the circuits. To such an alteration he could not
consent. He would not divide any county, English or
Welsh ; but whether each county could have a separate
assize-town was a matter which must be left for considera-
tion. It would be necessary in some cases to join counties
in one assize, for otherwise, the business of some was so
small, that it would not hold out sufficient inducement to
men of eminence at the bar to attend them ; and, in fact,
it might be difficult to get a sufficient bar, unless a union
of more counties than one was included in the same assize.
But in such union the convenience of each county would
be studied as much as possible in the selection of place
where the assize was to be held. The city of Chester
would be a great object in making the new arrangements ;
and it would be a matter fur consideration, whether much
of the judicial business of the county of Lancaster, border-
ing on that city, and which was now transacted fifty miles
off; might not with much greater convenience to the par-
ties be despatched at Chester. In cases of toiiou of more
counties than one in an assize, it would be necessary that
there should be only one sheriff; but in this there could
whom
was now in l the businessca case of
oi
of
be no practical inconvenience, for there would be a sub-
sheriff for
thingfor each
might
the office would be transacted without interference. The
m
Cambridge and Huntingdon,. where one sheriff acted
!'or Petit c,euetiee, The Bill would Jibe fiance nt-
s o)rint
byes i
d'yone a the

gulatioug by which a Jury ot either county might try
causes originating in the other, and this would be found
the greater convenience, and tend to the more perfect ad-
ministration of justice; • for such was the difficulty of
getting. a sufficient number of Jurors to act in some
ettutirks, that causes were left for trial to a very few who
possibly might in some instances be biassed by local in-
. .

erests or feelings. It air is also intended that the gaols in

emmti-s tl)nld he con4dcred iu law a% in each ; and

lana,x would aho be found regulating the mode in which
he expemie of court-home and other expenditure nal-
teetrd with the holding of an assize would be apportioned

)etween the counties joined, according to circumstance..

This seas the general outline of the—measure which he
should introduce, and though it might seem at first glance
&lint it would require volinninoes enactment:, it would ha
band that the whole did not comprise more than a low
,isges. In Laming the mea.ure, he hail eaficaroured to

,void an
ly violent change, or .makinc any at eseept in
hose poinrg were change was expedient to carry the
. .

enerll principle of the measure into operation. It might,
perhaps, have accorded more with cet Lao populgr notions,

;hat n•iren he propomerl a change is the a}•ate,a of jarlieigi

admini.tration, lie shou!d sweep away every thing at once.•
i-le had, however, limited laitnAelf to tlime alteratinino:
.vhich Were necessary, preserving as much as possibt.
the ancient forms. He had little hesitatien in saying that

the 15 Ju,:ges in this country would have more ariitiona
,h,ti, to administer in ettuses of property than all 'those
who -presided over the administrati.n of justice in

France. It would nat be nninstructive t. put the }Lusa
in po‘sevion of the exact stre of our relations trith France
in reference to this important subject. In the Court
fif Justiciary the French tnaintaicc.l no less tlisn 4

Judges, one President, three Vine-Ptei;eltws, an Attot-
Rey-General, six Advocates-General, and one Etki‘tr.tr,
halides other infer i.‘r officers eonneetsti with that Court.

the Court of Paris thery were Is 4 Jetri:es, one Pre+.ideat,

five Vice-Presidents, an Attorney-General, besides mind:
officers. In each eour royale were from 20 to 40
Judges and one Attorney-General; he alight a/eirtre tit/
Judges at thirty each Court, and the number of' tl,eu
Courts amounted to 25, making Ile nwober of Judges in

all about 858. Then there were 21a Tribunals of Cora,
oterce, the Registrars of which were pail lay Government.

. _
The Right lion. Gentleman hero ounntereted the items(
•,f expenses attendant on each Court, and exlenlated the
aggregate at 11,26.5,465 francs, or 882,856/. Euglisb,
whereas the expense of administering juitice in England
was only 150,000/. in the suns total. It might, hoar',
aver, he supposed that the expense, beiag so Inardensotod
to Government, the French suitors would on that ac-
count pay less; but this was far fratn isein; the ease, for
1401., the charge of a single rause in France, cc he was
informed by M. Leroi, an eminent French advocate, would
cover the expenses of ten (misses of a similar description in
London and Middlesex. Thus it wts clearly to be
leered that the law costs in France et least equalled, is
they were not much greeter, than these sseessistoed by
the administration of justice in England. The proceedings,
moreover, were more prolix, and perhaps he might nfirl.
more unsatisfactory than our own, in consepsenee of the lite,
questions being so mixed np ith ;he facts of the C4IIIC as 0,-1
always were in French courts of justice. It was a grease
advantage, In his opinion, resulting liens the trial by jury
in this country, that it determined the merits of a sass,
hy coming to a decision on the facts separate and dis-
tinctly from the law which might arise out of them. With
respect to the present system of administering justice in
Wales, he would set aside his individual epinien for n
moment, and adduce that of very nnsuspieions witnesses
against it. That evident!, was to be found in the Cam-

inercial Report of the Chamber of Commerce in Bristol,
and the patties concerned had never thought of antici-
pating that their sentiments, so expressed, would have
ever been brought forward on an occasion like the present.
The report alluded to represented that those who might
be creditors for debts contracted in Wales were obliged to
have recourse to Welsh Courts alone for enforcing their
claims, but that the uncertainty, the risk, and the din.
culties attendant on such a mode of procedure, owing td
the inefficient operation and defective constitution of those
Courts induced creditors very often to relinquish ;heir
deb's altogether rather than to seek them : !sense great
loss and inconvenience to the trailing interests of the city
of .Bristol.—(Hear.)—The existitig system► of Welsh joli-
cature he conceived to be erronensa and imperfect i■ every
particular. Part of the measure propesel woulei require
that fifteen days' notice of action before the Assizes should
be given to all persons against whom en action was con-
templated ; but hitherto such cases werehurried on without
giving any adequate time for preparatias, and eenserptently
operated unjustly to the prejudice of the defendant. , The
Report of the Commissioners had stated, that the expenses
of Welsh causes in every stage otonsiderately exceeded those
of causes in England. This also was a grievance which
it was intended entirely to remove. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to
bring " in a Bill for the more effectual administration of
justice in England and in the principality of Wales."
Mr. O'CONNELL said he was quite willing, to give
the Right Hon. Gent. credit for his intention in bringing
forward the measure contemplated, hut disclaimed having
heard a single word which induced him to believe that the

desired change would be in any !wisest an amendment an
the system of justice as new administered in the principa-
lity. Convenient it certainly would he, bath to judges sod
barrisals in great practice, whom it would enable to re-
create and refresh themselves; but he was let to learn
that the benefits resultine from this boasted reform would
extend to the public. They would have so adilitionel day
consumed in their service, nor would tke suitors find them-
selves placed in a more advantageous position for obtaining
justice or redress. A fifth judge, too, was to be added to
those who already presided in tie Exchequer ; butefor
what purpose? Why, in order to help them to do nothing.
There was nevertheless one part of the bill which he
could not but approve ot, and that was what related to
the prevention of arrests for sums under 100/. Aceordinz
to tit!! present sttte of the law, if the meanest wretch chose
to swear a debt of 100,0001. against any individual not a
member :of either House of Parliament, an arrest and. im-
prisonment of the party designated would be the immediate
consequence. Not long ago a woman in Dublin, win)
could neither read or write, bad snide oath to a debt
amounting to 60,000!., which she alleged to he due to
her from a respectable gentleman, end her affidavit was
acted on forthwith. Special pleading also was a subject
which he wished to see reformed in all its parts, as it only
increased the expense of coming at the truth, and pre-
vented the parties from coming into the presence of
the judge until their resources were previously ex-
hausted. They then often settled matters by arbitra-
tion, -which they might have dose in the outset but
for this precious system of special pleading. They ought
likewise to give every county its local Oset, and facilitate
the administration of justice at every man's door. The
Secretary for the Home Department had expressed himself
favourable to the introduction of such Courts with autho-
rity to decide cases of small debt ; lout why, when the prin-
ciple was acknowledged, should they not be extended to
large debts as well? This advantage Wales had enjoyed
hitheoto ; but it was about to lee deprived of it by the
Bill in contemplation. They would heneeforward be con-
strained to make application in London before icy step
whatever could be taken. An American Captain might
owe a debt to an inhabitant, and before the writ could ar-
rive from the metropolis, would most probably pay him by
topsail. They must now travel for justice, whether it be
in a law case or an equity ease, for it was me longer to be
extended to them as heretofore at keine. By the time
about four hundred Welsh eaves, tacked to the tail of the
list in Chancery, were disposed of, ke supposed saceessive
generations of those interested would have passed into the
grave. The local tribun di were also to be annihilated;
and the Right Hon. Gentleman, in adverting to France,
might have recollected that jaseise was there to be had at
every man's door ; and in this respect the Freash enjoyed
a superiority over ourselves, since they travelled for justice
for the first time when they themselves mule an spyeal to
the Cour Royale. What consolation was it ti as it they
were charged exorbitantly for *tie* P Did their mis-
fortunes alleviate our owl ? But the Hen. and Learned
Gentleman had not enumerated all the expenses attesdaut
on the constitution of our Courts when be mentioned
150,0001. as the sans total, which he souls] very easily
make appear, if the late hour would permit. In brief, he
would for his own pert conceit to cashier half our army
and half our Colonies, if by so doing we Ewald accelerate
and cheapen the administration of justice.--(Hear.)
Sir J. OWEN protested against themessure from a con-
viction that, by the abolition of local judicature, the costs of
law would be more than doubled to the inhabitants of
Wale& He was confident that Government would not so
far disregard the feelings of the people u to suffer this Bill
to go into a Committee before the Easter holydaym.
Mr. WILBRAHAM had no doubt bet it would prove
highly advantageous to that part of the country to which
he person illy belonged.
Mr. C. W. WYNN was of opinion that the annihilation
of the local Judicature would confer an important benefit
on the principality, and he was led to form this conclusion
after an attentive consideration of the subject, backed by
his own individual experience of the practice in these courts
themselves. There was to a certain degree disadvantage in
every change, but here the good countertedeere,l Va. evil.
Ile hoped, however, that the Bill would set he allowed to
go into a Committee before the assists., is order to give time
!or examination of its merits.
Fie reef' 1A r;lon'