The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-10 00:00:00

Posed

to make any opposition, although he had some doubts
with respect to the wording of two or three of them. For in-
stance, he could not say that he entirely approved of the fourth
resolution, unless it received some modification. That resolution
stated, that "in the existing state" of Lower Canada, it was not
. desirable to make the Legislative Council elective ; leaving it
to be inferred that in another state of the province such a change
might be admissible. Now, he did not like to be called upon to
.4ffirro an abstract proposition like that. He was not prepared
I° saa that under any circumstances he could contemplate
tslll,°_,lle a changF w.ith satisfaction. When he took charge of
,' . matters in his official capacity, there were two princiles
by which lie regulated his conduct. The first was, to adhere
il,s closely as h 0 could to the recommendations of the Canadian
Commissioners ; the second, to adapt his measures as nearly
as possible to the Constitution of the mother country. It was
or?, th‘e_. latter principle that he proceeded with reference to the
MCivil List. It was in conformity to the abandonment by his
a• .
le'tY on his accession of a hereditary revenue and the sub-
similarstitnof 0
Civil List, that he (Lord Ripon) proposed a
arrangement in Canada. [The Noble Lord here read,
othersat considerable length, the dispatches from Lord Aylmer and
E, on this subject.] He (Lord Ripon) was astonished to.
hadan that this new light of the necessity of an elective council
rlsc broken in upon the House of Assembly of Lower Ca-
ttle a' aS It appeared from Lord Aylmer's dispatches that they.
thetn.isclaes abandoned a similar proposition. From some of in
_,',,spatches it appeared that a strong impression had been thaue on the mind of the Governor of Lower Canada, that
e House of Assembly, although their grievances were as
gmreat as at present, were satisfied with the propositions of his
l'ajestys Government.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was
14°ltider these circumstances that lie (Lord Ripon) had pro-
esied the Bill of 163 E. Nor did lie now believe that the
fortuitylOgs of the People at large in the province were in coni
As to the feeling now expressed by the House o
e• senThlY• Although he did not pretend to know what the
i','areumstances were which had produced the change which
l dhtaken place in the sentiments of the House of Assembly,
leis a°l 4° difficulty in saying that that change was such as in
bus°l3inion called upon Parliament to apply a remedy to the
was e°f legislative power in the Canadian Assembly. There
the hao people on earth who has less reason to complain than
tax
taiaanadians, There was no people on earth so lightly
tago --(Hear, hear, hear.) Every commercial advan-
a 1. /vas opened to them ; and lie must say that it was
demand Misfortune to the community in that colony that a
BeretutTld had thus suddenly been set up by the house of As-
AtiTu'Y interfering with thpronTess of the national prosperity.
eladeearti,os to the point with his Noble. Friend had con-
', ins speech, the establishment of a kind of federal go-
.erinnen for our North American colonies, it was too large
consideration,
for him even to hint an opinion upon without great
8 He felt bound, however, to vote for the re-
Dilations.
Lord BR .
OL GUAM said that he rose with unfeigned pain
to offer to their Lordships some observations on the question ;
ot osia
the prepa on account of the thinness of attendance, leading to
vqBetlmp. tion that their Lordships took it for granted there
beeans° objection to the resolutions under consideration, but,
of all
te, he was aware of the utter hopelessness, in the temper
gurne„`"eir Lordships, present and absent, of offering any ar-
the
.11D to alter their opinions, or to stay their proceedings on
suly Jeet• After, therefore, stating his sentiments on the
a Pet aa ,
steeiss.,) a wouid enter his protest on the journals against the
eetrie."° 1° which he was quite aware their Lordships would
now a fact lie was in some doubt whether to sit. down
ships or to continue for a short time his address to their Lord-
of o; i Ills Noble Friend had expressed a favourable opinion
Wlio ee ,?hours of the Commissioners, and no doubt had rested
ens; os' his arguments oit the report which they bad made.
ati 4.ide would not deny that they had performed their duty in
tnissh,e manner. He had the greatest respect for the Com-
inothers---he had known one of them long—he had known
lisnd er,for some time—and the third, it was admitted on all
whethers°ad the best, possible character. He found, however,
'arieta front the constitution of that Commission, or the
kissi' of labours they had to perform, that the Com-
had -ners differed materially on many important points,
from °II that account had come to a different conclusion
side, t7n4t adopted by his Noble Friend. His Noble Friend con-
-4 .e'' the opinion of the Commissioners the more valuable our
tieeount of its discrepancy ; and he would agree with him i
si'eeBYB had for the same reasons to come to the same cone.e-
kbend They had collected abundant evidence, a. an
and
ad cgn .d
in the
and' ttnt information on a vast variety of topics
nearly °ugh not in a very intelligible way, they h'adcome to
different the same conclusion ; but their reasons were not
sounnlis:
as, but totally repugnant to themselves A
eaten,.
4114 t , was that carried, that any person who was unfavour-
ni 0 the line of policy proposed by the Government had
sciar,Y, P dip his hand and he would find most satisfactory rea-
oes- ''L" differing from that policy ; and, in like manner, any
thoseWu° approved of that policy would find in the report the
s ~. satisfactory and irrefragable evidence in support of .
i_
nigh Now it certainly did diminish the authority of an p
tisid-"!mtlied on arguments not only differing in themselves,
jitii_nr,ot only even the arguments different, but the parties
of Co" 0 in drawing up the report. seemed tot totheenterinto a sort
opinions they
el,te_.nlict, by stating the.
the. 'tamed, and answering tileica•soa.rguments and opinions of
ir colleagues. His Noble Friend had at considerable.
teorth endeavoured to show that the Legislature had a right
°lte f, . in consequence of the state of affairs in Lower
ce r arc
4 44da, and the Noble Earl who spoke last had made some
11-all'arks about repealing the Act of 17,91. On that point,
4ever, he would not enter, because he was fully convinced,.
ta he believed it could hardly be denied, that as far as cu.-
eaclllatances would allow, making allowance for the differ-
gaB.: between a colony and independent state, they ought to
prov.the same constitutional principles of legislation. htomthoe
tharinees that they all admitted were necessar in
bete
la eountry. The only difference that ought. to mandrel
4 list RI.;
,aia .se from the circumstance of the one being, to a c
s;0 extent, dependent, and the other independent.
.The
Itiea4l4l°°B of England had the control over the executive by
ow4a °I the control they had over the public purse. _ The
tile r Assembly in the colonies had the same control over
nalleeutive---they had control over the same purse as in
eot'nt4ml; and admitting all that—admitting that the mother
not,. rIY gave them the power of stopping the supplies—yet,
arid I,t°standing that power, the estates of King, Lords,
;it 4 'c'tnelons might step in between the parties, and set
the Rht the control of the representatives of Canada
over
IvoinPBl4,'e of their constituents.—( Hear, hear.) That,
it
kw °e admitted, made the greatest possible difference.
Ivas ? far from not giving them that control, his opinion
fair t'lllulte the contrary, because he thought it only just and
'egardat they should possess it, inasmuch as their power as
I'Vollid seethe Crown would be impotent without it, and it
two 12,,+nd much to place in safe keeping the union of the
q hi's of the empire. His Noble Friend had rested one
Ass 4rguments on the great inconsistency of the House of
tiveessalsbslY respecting the proposition for making the L egisla-
troy d.ettibly elective, and had stated that their opinions mi-
litia, iffered from those which they had put forth on the
ordin:°Rieet four years ago. Now there was nothing extra-
(irror?' in that ; for the very same circumstance had oc-
ih th "rt° this country. It could not be denied that persons
nuiViZ Liiinited Kingdom felt very deeply interested, and une-
,tritt4Y expressed their feelings on certain changes in the
'llstasal°°' of the country—in the Reform of Parliament, for
Arose :---in what some might call restoration, and others im-
airnPro,,,ent ; but, call it by what name they pleased, whether
fact ~''Ment or altotation or restoration, it was an undoubted
the ~Lnat there had been substantial changes effected within
reee'•esst liv or six years, and effected, too, with the concur-
the 811 of thee people of England, Scoand an I,reland. That
could
aSaS Of the people were anxiously set, ond change, no one
hat, "IV. But it was said the House of Assembly had
14t4ed their opinion about the constitution of the Legis-
Plete, Assembly ; but had not the House of Commons as corn-
ars, 'Y changed? Had not the House of Commons in the
,s: session of a reformed Parliament, as compared with the
still session of an unreformed Parliament in 1830 or 1829, and
ahanr,tnore as compared with preceding Sessions, as much
iaa aaed as the House of Assembly of Lower Canada respect-
ary.)'ts opinions on the constitution of the Legislative Assem-
148e .He was clearly of opinion that the divisions which had
1,,,, e •
in the Elouse of Assembly was as complete and entire a
thetf as possible of the opinions of the people of Canada
l'
'andY also proved that there was a very strong and a
universal
i:,B4g in favour of such a change as was embodied in the
iaBs4r of the petition presented to their Lordships' House, and
4 'le resolutions agreed to by the House of Assembly. That
11Pem'd him important
hid there was a large party
.in the Colony who were opposed
Drop°e", a change ; but certainly no such conclusion could be
tf ti r'Y come to from the resolutions passed by a great majority
la I,j'e renresentatives of the inhabitants. These resolutions,
ti4lara: °Pinion, expressed also the opinions of the people at
:, Among the two classes which composed the popula-
no dui Lower Canada, the French and the English, there
teas°lllb, t were different shades of opinion, and the English
aria S° a"Y, it was believed, were less anxious for the change,
ktti Me of them had a great repugnance to it. The greater
vver,°° of those who were averse to the proposed alteration
the ' Merchants ; but these formed a very small portion of
iohta
t" n°4.11111143'
°, and he might safely assert that it was nearly
tynlversal opinion at least the opinion of a very great ma-
All/ftprioetfathe inhabitants of the country —he spoke of the great
ah eOrs aswell as other inhabitants in general—that some
ee. -I,°e those proposed in the resolutions should take
2:lassernbc hese resolutions had been repeatedly carried in the
ic 48sY by majorities of five, six, seven, and eight to one.
"ajorit emblY had been dissolved, but when it again met the
14asedY I%st Only was not diminished, but it was greatly
aylrlted, "'lt it was said time people were not fair.ly repro-
e a 8, nd the members did not express the sentiments of
aaatleerh citt-'nranurripii,tY at large. He could not see any weight in
fact -e ret,B, sparnant, when it was a fact that these members
ast, hotd;ried by fort-shilling freeholders—by persons, in
in fay at i.llg. land by. any tenure—inhabitants of houose.s
.
ttttliarva,„
efathYeerar, and tha.t there was a majoosreitdyoorf:‘slesmtber7s
~,,.,
eh.ed b,,
..._,esao resolutions in a House cooomupd
lnot,therefore,
,"e'ye ive it'plesni, constituency. H
tAti other 0 • . ""
' e that persons so qeualified could entertain
,eikavea, wiPt'intions than those expressed by their repreate:o-
- of inhabit is.,
latrsd to tdh. erf
no„ that
acr e 3 there
and weree
slight Itl' I,l°
sought 'tho t 1 er
• 1 argument to which they
Mlista,° •°r° a wais a didi see how these cir-
if ;8 -‘ieqs eear, for he not
.-
Q Were ado oil to interfere with the claims of justice ; and
rule atiada ,nted as an argument for making a distinction in
...,tisforfasZnsahoold not the Governmant la down the same
those fora s, as regarded the Protestants and the Catholics
_e af is..7_ prileponderating a great deal snore in Ireland than 4r14: there 'elle' descent did in Canada ? But it was said
.. Was a division
4.... as there on among the Protestants in lreland,.
kt,..,qatia?
~, not also the same division among the English in
a• q the p IPe French population amounted to about 400,000.
'Ott 'nglisb
Tou(:' one, 1 ° 150,000, and as the
gh
; there'
...de_ was compelled to come there
eo
t"h'aescoancmluais.ciornitythoatf
'ae En , 'vas great union among the Fren ch, so me po °w
atisla must be represented by that body. It was

to one country, and exclude it in the management of the
affairs of other countries. Now, what were the circumstances
which would induce their Lordships to treat one country in
one way and another in another ?—one on the principle of
conciliation and the other on that of harshness. He was
sure that the rule was not that the greater the importance
the more mildly should the country be dealt with, for that
could not be laid down as a rule of justice. For his part he
would rather say, look at the less important country, and
treat that with kindness and in a spirit of conciliation, and
the more so because it was more thrown on your protection.
He was equally sure that the proximity of the country or its
power
could not be adduced as an argument for adopting a
one-sided policy. He was quite sure that his Noble Friend
did not think that a country had a greater claim to justice on
account of its great power and weight, and that he would not
mete out justice and kindness according to his apprehensions
—according to his hopes or his fears. He was quite sure that
his Noble Friend who had introduced the resolutions would be
the very first man to repudiate such a doctrine. It was wholly
at variance with the nature of his mind—it was totally at va-
riance with his political feelings and his political conduct on
former occasions, as well as his conduct since he had become
more immediately connected with the colonies; it was utterly
alien to his disposition to mete out one sort of justice to a
colony or part of the empire that was near and powerful, and
therefore not very safe to resist ; arid mete out another to a
country that was more remote, and which it would be per-
fectly safe to resist. He was sure his Noble Friend was the
last person in the world to adopt such a principle ; and yet
from the nature of these resolutions he was afraid that a very
different sort of policy from that which he knew was conge-
nial with the feelings of his Hon. Friend would be adopted.
The sum and substance of the argment then was, that they
oue.,lit to apply to Canada the same principles of conciliation
and of kindness, giving the same friendly and attentive ear
to their remonstrances, and going as far as they could towards
granting their prayers, as they had done to their fellow-sub-
jects nearer home. The question then arose, should their
Lordships sanction the alteration which the Canadians re-
quired in their Constitution—that was, should the people of
Lower Canada have an elective council, or a council for life,
as at present constituted ? His Noble Friend who opened
the debate viewed with great repugnance the idea of what he
called an organic change in the Colonial Constitution—an
alteration of so violent a nature, that in his apprehension it
was capable of totally subverting that system of legislation
which he deemed so perfect, and of beim-, fatal in its conse-
quences to the value of that political idea° which he attached
to an hereditary branch of the Legislature. But the elective
principle was not so considered at the time the Canadia Con-
stitution was adopted. Mon did not shrink with horror at the
nation of an executive council in these days ; yet those were
days in which political, he would hot say prejudices, but
'strong political opinions on either side were running pretty
nearly as high upon such questions as now. The proposition
for making that very Canadian Council elective was, in the
first instance, brought forward by Mr. Fox, and though not
approved of by Mr. Pitt, yet it was to be observed that both
Mr. Pitt and Lord Grenville, and all who joined in that Bill
of 1791, stated it to be but an experimental measure, and
prophesied, in express terms, that a time might be looked
forward to when it would become necessary to revise and pos-
sibly change that measure. His Noble Friend had said, if
an elective council were established in Lower Canada that dif-
ficulty would arise with respect to Upper Canada ; but he
begged to remind his Noble Friend that the avowed object of
the measure of 1791 was to separate the two portions
of Canada, giving a separate government to Upper
Canada, which was almost peopled by English, and
also a separate government to Lower Canada, where the
great mass of the people were French.—( Hear, hear.)
The object was, that the English might continue to enjoy
their own laws and institutions, and the French to enjoy, if
not institutions, at least their laws—the making the laws
coincide with the prejudice and feelings of the people being
part of the plan then proposed. So far as high and vene-
rable authorities went, therefore, they were in favour of the
propriety of consulting, as far as might be, the wishes and
opinions of the people of Lower Canada. The experiment of
1791 had been tried about 45 years ; and could they really
say, when they considered what had been the results, that the
experiment had altogether succeeded? He thought it would
be a strong proposition ; nay, that there would be great dif-
ficulty in saying that it had not altogether failed as regarded
the Legislative Council. The Legislative Council had un-
doubtedly failed in securing the objects for which it was ori-
ginally intended ; it had met with nothing but heartburnings,
jealousies, and disunions among the different parts of the Le-
gislature, and had ended in bringing things to a stand. That
the great objection was that pervading flaw in the original
constitution—that prevailing vice in its concoction, which Mr.
Fox took the first opportunity of exposing and proposing a
remedy for—no man could, whatever opinions he might
have in other matters, possibly doubt. He could not help
thinking that, as an experiment, the Legislative Council
had failed most signally ; neither could he the less help
thinking that this signal failure afforded some grounds at least
for lending a favourable car, if not for at once acceding to the
request of the people of Canada. It was easy to talk as both
his Noble Friends had done of ti.e necessity of having not only
an executive and a representative body in Canada, but also a
third body answering to the House of Lords; it was mighty easy
to say, because they considered a House of Lords in this
country as a necessary component part in the Constitution,
therefore nothing could give the benefits of a British Con-
stitution in Canada unless it had something that might con-
stitute a had parallel with the House of Lords. But when their
Lordships came to consider the nature of the thing, they would
find that all they lord really got in Canada was the name.
The Upper House there was only in name and nothing in its
nature like the House of Lords, because the constituent parts
of such a House existed not, and could not exist, in that coun-
try. The best part of the argument, however, in favour of as
elective Council was, that by establishing it they would not be
departing from what were the intentions of the framers of the
original Constitution. Those who read the debates of that day
would find that it was not to a Legislative Council such as now
existed that the original framers of the Canadian Constitution
looked forward. They were looking forward to a Legisla-
tive Council that would gradually form itself into an here-
ditary body—that would be really something like the House
of Lords,' and something like ari aristocracy. Accordingly
one of the provisions of the Act enabled the Crown to grant
hereditary power to such persons as the Crown should think
fit. VC hat was it that made the House of Lords an important
and, as many
.thought, an essential and indispensable part of
the Constitution of this country ? Not because it was a se-
cond chamber differently composed from the Lower House.
It was because it. consisted of a different body of men—dif-
ferent in their political nature always sitting, endowed with
a d
That
would Fortune,
lidt a.wpaapsnl
ydtiinewool independentindolol3lu,ybot,
other qualifications, some of au accidental nature, such as rank
nd
of the popular choice.
ei nptohh
net casewohfh thewhich
ii
that Councilcou n oc fh l
aCa-
nada,ndtheir
.Lordships' House could be said to resemble each other.
He did not think that it was the qualification belonging to their. Lordships of the greatest advanta =e it mi ,ht be all ver well
—manyrleees thoughttph
o,,ne sti
,br
tc3ht,plil that it
po principle
ghat
tuvwcfa isebhecatsl tol eemrd
efht
thought
tul,icri principleisoh uo sutay;oathan
thec.airee
in their Lordships' House prevailpt' .at. all. The. bulk of their
Lordships were no doubt of opinion. liut it was a different
[hirerinf,lhoeupesendiietnCe:nad.
thing to say so of the Upper House of Canada. If the mem-
bersfic a h thehoofn I.or
It:hT le) fa
hwere to have no other quail-
which to command tihe respect and
.cotifi,lence of
t ley possessed no other qua
their fellow-citizens —th 7ervie•ehn
tication by
mustindependent
take the liberty of say-
rpeQenden.t of popular control,
ing, that the less they
and the more they were maded
ertainly. thought, upon
the whole, that if the elective prinbceipaelen
responsible in some way to
somebody, so much the better. ILI?" • •
were introduced into
iutsef improvement. r.
the Legislative Council, it would
Fox thought it should be elected by the
but he ( Lord Brougham) doubted the wisdom of othaAtsss}e,mstebi?.,
whereverth t
It had always given rise to very great mischief.
had existed. It was, however, equally clear tha't
chamber ought not to be constituted in the same e•
second
House of Assembly ; the only advantage of which wayldasba
the further consideration of the same measures by alnrostweu the
same body of persons. Why, then, the conclusion was, that
the Legislative Council ought to be chosen by a different' bod •
of electors, with different qualifications as well in the electors
as the elected, and also for a different period of time. That
some such body would answer its purposes better than the

said also by the Noble Earl opposite, that no country enjoyed
more free institutions than Canada—that they had trial by
jury, that they elected their representativss, and enjoyed all the
rights of freemen. No doubt they enjoyed personal freedom as
much as the people of this country, but that was not the ques-
tion. The question was as to political independence and politi-
cal rights which could not be long disjoined from personal li-
berty, and that the colonies appeared to understand. The mo-
ment political rights and political independence were broken
down, it would be folly to talk of security to personal rights.
The Noble Earl opposite said some years ago that the people
of this country were the happiest and the most peaceable in
the world; that there was nothing more entire or more un-
broken than the peace, the political rights; and prosperity of
these happy islands. No doubt there was security for pro-
perty; they had Trial by Jury, they had a Parliament, though
their voice was not very much heard ; yet the Noble Duke
thought it the best Constitution that could possibly be devised,
and only wondered how any change should be thought of. The
Noble Duke might be perfectly consistent in adopting these
resolutions, but the people of England then thought, as the
people of Canada began to think, that the question was not
whether they had Trial by Jury and a Parliament, but whe-
ther they had the means for ensuring a method of good Go-
vernment, and felt assured that the only way to obtain and
preserve personal freedom and personal rights, was by assert-
ing their political freedom and political independence. It
had been said that there was no other way of governing a
people than by conceding every thing they demanded.
Now he could not go so far as to say that there were no
other principles of Government but that of leaving the people
to govern themselves. Far indeed would he be from adopt-
ing such a rule of political conduct; but there were others
who, it would appear, had considered such Government
the best, and had quoted an exaggerated speech of Mr.
Fox in support of the doctrine. He certainly was sur-
prised to hear that such language had been used, and he had
therefore referred to the reported speech, and found there
could be no doubt that such language had been used. The
words of Mr. Fox alluded to were—" I will concede, and if I
find that concession is not sufficient, I will concede more."
And it had been inferred from that the only mode of go-
verning a people was to let them have their own way. He
was not induced to go so far ; but if that was the principle
to be acted on as regarded Ireland, he must totally disap-
prove of confining it to one country, and not extending it to
all others, unless it could be shown that there was something
in the situation of these countries that could justify a depar-
ture from the general law—unless there was a high expediency,
amounting to state necessity, he never would confine a rule

Council as it was at present composed, and would produce
greater harmony between the different parts of the Government
than had hitherto been found to exist, he must say, after the best
consideration he could give to the subject, he for one could en-
tertain no manner of doubt. His difficulties were with respect
to the details, and the mode in which the alteration ought to
be made ; but that some such alteration would be perfectly
desirable, was the result of whatever attention he had been
able to give to the subject. But that which he considered the
vice of this whole question—that which he protested against
—that without which, and if it had not been in these resolu-
tions, he should not have felt disposed to trouble their Lord-
ships with any observations, was the proposition in the eighth
resolution for taking the money of the colonists and appro-
priating that money in the teeth of an Act of Parliament so-
lemnly made, voluntarily made, given to them either as a con-
cession of justice to their claim of right, or as a concession of
conciliation and of kindness, voluntary, and without the pre-
tence of force; and in whichever of the two lights he could
conceive it, he must regard the proposition embodied in the
eighth resolution as wholly unworthy of the people, of the Go-
vernment, and of the Parliament of this country. The power
which it was now proposed to take from the House of Assem-
bly and the people of Canada was given to them by the King,
as Lord Aylmer told the Assembly cordially, and of good will
to his Canadian subjects—thereby vesting in them absolute con-
trol over their own money. With what grace could they now
retract it? Nay, it was worse than retraction, for it was not
proposed to repeal the Act of 1831. No: it was said, " Let
that Act continue which makes you indepenndent, but then you
have deceived us during these four years, and therefore we
will put our hands into your money-chest and take it and
apply it as we please." It was said that this country had been
disappointed ; but they had no right to suppose from any thing
that passed previously to the Act of 1831 heir).- introduced that
it was quite certain that the House of Assemblyt would grant
a civil list. His Noble Friend himself had referred to a pas-
sage in the correspondence which showed that the Govern-
ment had been warned, and that it was very possible that the
Assembly would not grant a civil list. It was only fair to the
House of Assembly to say that they never held out any pros-
pect of the kind upon any occasion ; or had done any thing to
justify this country to say that the Assembly had deceived us,
and induced us to grant them this privilege in the expectation
that they would in return provide a civil list. For, in the
event of the Assembly not granting a civil list, his Noble
Friend (time Earl of Ripon) pointed out what Lord Aylmer
ought to, and what, as a constitutional measure, ought to be
done ; and what was it ? Not to lay hold of the money of
the people, and apply it as he thought fit. No such thing;
that was not the consistent and constitutional course which
his Noble Friend directed Lord Aylmer to take in the
event of the Assembly refusing to grant a civil list ; but it
was that he should refuse to pass their Bills. Their re-
medy against him was to refuse supplies ; his remedy against
them was to refuse the Royal assent to their Bills. Without
saying that the Assembly had taken the best course for obtain-
ing their ends, yet he begged to ask, for what purpose was it
that they valued the power of controlling their own money ?
Was it that they might grant supplies as a matter of course ?
Was it that they were vested with the power and discretion of
granting or refusing supplies, but that they were to exercise
that option in one way only ? That they were to have the
power to use their money at their own good-will and pleasure,
only upon the condition that they should be pleased to use it
according to the pleasure of this country ? Why, good God I
what use was it to give it to them ? For what did they value
it ? For what did they want it ? They wanted it—by possibility
they could only want it with one view, namely, that they might
have the power of exercising it for a certain purpose ; and for
what purpose in the world but to obtain, from time to time,
those measures which they could not obtain without it ? Those
who granted them that power did not expect they would so soon
exert it. Still, was that a reason for taking, it back from them ?
They wished to have that power, not for a name, nut for an or-
nament, not for a title, but to give them practically a certain
weight and influence in the government of their country.
He could not help rather wondering at the Noble Lord who
opened the debate dwelling so much on the neighbouring pro-
vinces, and their late history as connected with the present
subject. That the Noble Lord should exult very much at the
recent events that had occured in Upper Canada he was the
less surprised at, because undoubtedly a very great change
appeared to have been wrought in the sentiments of the Le-
gislative Assembly of that province. Instead of being about
two to one, if not more, in favour of something. like the
changes required by the House of Assembly of Lower Ca-
nada, ho believed that parties were now pretty nearly balanced,
amid that the proceedings of the home Government were re-
garded with a less distrustful eye. But he thought the Noble
Lord had not the same reason to rejoice at the state of timings
in the other provinces. In New Brunswick, as he was in-
formed, many difficulties and much discontent still remained.
The state of Nova Scotia was far from being satisfactory, and
Newfoundland had only very lately petitioned the British Par-
liament, complaining gi joyously of the treatment they had re-
ceived from the Government. Upon the whole then, he thought
that the Noble Lord had not so much ground for rejoicing in the
state of the neighbouring provinces as he would lead the House
to believe. He repeated that he did not expect that there
would be any pause in the course they were then pursuing.
He should be greatly rejoiced to think that his Noble Friend
would be satisfied with passing these resolutions—with stop-
ping there and bringing in no Bill. It might, perhaps, be
holding up the British Parliament in no very dignified attitude
to stop short here, as if it did not like to proceed further ;
nevertheless, any thing would be better than to proceed in a
course which he was perfectly confident would sooner or later
produce mischief. That the colony should take up arms—
that it should make overtures to the United States—that it
should even desire a separation from this country, and to be
wholly independent of this country, were expectations that he
never would stop to express, nor stop to refute ; for they were
not worth consideration. He did not expect that even the last
and least important of these things was at all likely to hap-
pen. He believed that the people of Canada were loyal and
attached to this country, and if well treated would continue
to be well disposed. Ile believed that they rejoiced in their
connection with the mother country.—( Hear.) He believed
that they' would dislike a severance from it, and that they
would regard as a calamity to themselves any course of pro-
ceeding which should drive them, on their part, to adopt
any steps that should seem to lead, even remotely, to a se-
para • • tion. That was kis firm belief ; but at the same time
he very well knew that things which at first sight appeared
exceedingly improbable, especially in contests between two
such assemblies as the Parliament of England and the local
Legislatures of a colony, although they might at first
excite little regard—although there might be no animosity
in England, no ill feeling in Canada—yet he very well knew
that the consequence of these contests, and the irritations
which necessarily arose from them, was in the long run to
produce mischief. That was the case originally with the
North American colonies. The contest there began among
some of the southern states who refused to vote a civil list,
and the very first coercive measure proposed in Parliament
for the purpose of bringing
,those colonies to a sense, as it
was called, of their duty, and of supporting—for that was
the very language used them as well as upon the present oc-
casion—the honour of the mother country and the dignity
and independence of the sovereign, was carried almost una-
nimously, there being in neither House of Parliament so much
as a division upon the subject. Before another year had
elapsed, God knows there were melancholy divisions upon the
matter on both sides of the Atlantic, and every one knew
the ultimate result. He did not mean to magnify the present
question into anything like the same proportion of importance
with the matters originally in dispute between this country and
the North American colonies, although it was remarkable that
the population of those colonies when the Stamp Act passed in
1765 was not materially greater than the present population of
British North America. When he threw out any hint of
comparison between time state of affairs in America in 1764
and the present state of things in the Canadas, he did so for
the purpose, not of predicting that there would be the same
course taken—not for the purpose of showing that he was of
opinion that England was likely to lose those colonies in the
same way as she had lost the provinces of the United States—
but to show that mischiefs which at first no one thought likely
to happen did happen,-when once a maternal government de-
viated Irons the right course. To treat the colonies well, to
do them justice, to measure out to them the same justice and
the same conciliation as had been given, and was still in
the course of being given, to the subjects of the Crown
nearer at home, was the true, the safe, the honest, and there-
fore the best course of policy that could be pursued, and he
only heartily regretted that he saw so little chance of its
being adopted.
The Duke of WELLINGTON did not intend to offer any
opposition to the resolutions, although lie did not exactly com-
prehend what course the Noble Lord intended to pursue in
consequence of their being adopted. lie did not understand
whether it was the intention of the Government to bring in
any Bill or Bills founded upon the resolutions, or whether,
acting upon the eighth resolution alone, it was intended to
scud out his Majesty's command to seize upon the money in
the Canada treasury, for the purpose of applying, it to the pay-
ment of the civil list. If the latter were the course intended
to be pursued, he must say that he considered it to be ex-
tremely unjust. Time resolutions of that House and of the
other House of Parliament could not give to the Government
the power of issuing such a command. On the other hand, he
could not understand what Act of Parliament could be brought
in to enable the Governor-General of Canada to seize certain
sums of money belonging to that province. He confessed
he had always been opposed to time system adopted under the
Act proposed by his Noble Friend ( Lord Ripon). He was op-
posed to that Bill from the commencement, because in his
opinion the province of Lower Canada never manifested any
disposition to make a provision for that which lie thought
most essential to the good government and well-being of every
society that could be brought together—time due administra-
tion of justice by learned and independent men. When his
Majesty, under the provisions of the Bill introduced by his
Noble Friend, resigned certain important branches of revenue
into the hands of time Canadian Representative Assembly, suf-
ficient security was not taken that provision should lAs made
for that service which he maintained was the most important
and most necessary to every society, wherever it might be
placed. Upon the present resolutions, and upon the whole
speech of the Noble Lord (G 1 .n. 14), lie would observe that
the Assembly of Lower Canada had not manifested any dis-
position to provide for the independent administration of jus-
tice ; and that they had allowed those who had had performed
those services, and the other services of time civil Govern-
, meat, to go on for between three and four years without pro-
viding in any manner fer their subsistence. No one could
read the history of the sufferings of the officers of the civil
Government of Lower Canada, without feeling that they
reflected the deepest :disgrace upon the authors of them.—
( Hear.) Tiere were sonic men who had gone out from this
country, for the purpose of serving his Majesty as judges in
Lower Canada, who were literally starving, and compelled
to pawn their books and clothes in order to obtain a scanty
subsistence for themselves and families. Such had been the

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 10, 1837

condition of these men for the :last three cr four years, al-
though during the whole of that period the Crown revenues
had been made over to the Assembly of Lower Canada, who,
with the money in the Treasury, absolutely refused to make
any grant to defray the salaries of the civil officers of the
Government. Then, again, as regarded these resolutions,
he must observe that the House of Assembly made two de-
mands ; they refused to provide a Civil List, but they made
two demands. First they demanded that the Executive
Council should be made responsible to the House of As-
sembly. In reply to that demand the fifth resolution then
before the House stated with great propriety that it was not
expedient that the Executive Council should be made re-
sponsible to that body. The next demand was, that the Le-
gislative Council should become an elective body. The
Noble and Learned Lord who had just addressed the House
had certainly stated a great many reasons why that demand
should be complied with ; but all these reasons were referable
to the wishes of the people. The Noble and Learned Lord,
after stating that the House of Assembly insisted that the Le-
gislative Council should be elected by the people, endeavoured
at great length to prove that the House of Assembly, being
elected by the people, must speak the voice of the people, and
therefore that it must be the wish of the people that the Legis-
lative Council should be elected by themselves. But had that
House and the other House of Parliament and his Majesty's
Government no other duty to perform except to carry on the
Government of Canada according to the wishes of the people
of Canada, as manifested in the House of Assembly, by whom
it was insisted that the Government of the province should be
made responsible to them, and who would not vote supplies to
enable his Majesty to administer justice ? Such being the con-
duct
of the House of Assembly, the Noble and Learned Lord '
had nevertheless come down and told them that the Legislative
Council ought also to be elective, in order to render it quite
sure that there should be no independent Government in Lower
Canada ; but that the whole should be given up without re-
serve into the hands of these two councils, elected, as the
Noble and Learned Lord proposed, by the people. He (the
Duke of Wellington) really must say that there was a system
of Government which he for one could never consent to esta-
blish, either in Lower Canada or in any other dependency of the
British Crown. What he said was this, that it was essential
for the British Parliament to take care that justice should
be administered ; and in order to its being well administered
that the Judges should be independent, not only of the exe-
cutive power, but also of the Legislative Councils and As-
semblies. He observed that the fourth resolution stated,
" That in the existing state of Lower Canada it is unad-
visable to make the Legislative Council of that province an
elective body." He was certain the Noble Lord opposite
could not intend that any sort of doubt should attach to the
meaning of the resolution. In that case the words in which
it was framed were not sufficiently explicit. Ministers, he
supposed, either meant or did not mean to make the Legis-
lative Council elective. He concluded from the terms of
the resolution as it now stood that they did not intend to
make it elective for the present. He did not suppose that
they had any design of carrying such a plan into execution
hereafter, but the point was left in doubt by the employment
of these words, " In the existing state of Lower Canada."
Would not the meaning of the Government be expressed as
well if they said simply, " It is unadvisable to make the Le-
gislative Council of Lower Canada an elective body," leaving
out the words to which he had referred. The concluding
words of the resolution might then stand as they were at pre-
sent expressed—" But it is expedient that measures be adopted
for securing to that branch of the Legislature a greater de-
gree of public confidence." That would make the proposi-
tion contained in the resolution perfectly clear and intelligible,
and not liable to any misconstruction. Whilst it presumed no-
thing for the future, it would distinctly express the present
positive intention of the Government not to make the Legis-
lative Council an elective body. But there was another reason
for making the alteration he suggested, and that was the man-
►►cr in which the same proposition was treated in the fifth re-
solution. The fifth resolution said, " That while it is expe-
dient to improve the composition of the Executive Council of
Lower Canada, it is unadvisable to subject it to the responsibi-
lity demanded by the House of Assembly of that province."
When the commencing words of the fourth resolution were
compared with those lie had just read, he thought their Lord-
ships would perceive that they certainly conveyed a meaaing
which he was sure the Noble Lord ( Lord Glenelg) did not
intend. He agreed with the Noble Lord that the Govern-
ment, in the administration of the affairs of the colonies,
should be careful to avoid any acts of an unkind or ungracious
character towards the local assemblies of those colonies ; but
at the same time it was most desirable that the Government
should avoid holding out expectations to them which they
did not mean to carry into full execution. He believed it
would be very desirable, indeed, to improve as far as possible
the composition of the Legislative Councils in all the British
colonies of North America; but when the conduct of the
House of Assembly of Lower Canada, in refusing to grant
supplies for their own civil Government and the due admini-
stration of justice amongst their own fellow-countrymen was
remembered, he was sure their Lordships would feel more and
more convinced of the absolute necessity of not subjecting the
Government of the province to their control without seine
check. With these observations he would conclude. It was
not his intention to throw any difficulty in the way of the re-
solutions; but he thought it would be well if the suggestion
he had thrown out with respect to the fourth were adopted.
Lord GLENELG replied.
The Earl of ABERD E E N begged to ask whether it was
the intention of the Government, under the eighth resolution,
to replace the sum of 30,000/. which was taken out of the
military chest in the year 1834 for the purposes of the colony ?
Lord GLENELG said it was.

The Earl of ABERDEEN said, that on that transaction be
had only one remark to make. The Noble and Learned Lord
( Brougham) was shocked to interfere with the power of the
Assembly to refuse the supplies ; but that Noble and Learned
Lord was a member of that Government which admired that
proceeding. So strongly did that !louse of Assembly feel
this, that it was deemed an act for which the Government of
the day ought to be impeached.
The resolutions were agreed to. and their Lordships ad-
journed at a.few minutes before twelve till to-morrow.