The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-27 00:00:00

The Committee then divided—
For the clause • 6l
For the amendment
Majority for the clause —33
On our return to the gallery, we found
Mr. O'CONNELL moving another amendment, to the
effect that the number of ex-officio guardians should be
one-sixth, instead of one-third of the whole number.
Lord MORPETH saw no good reason for the altera-
tion proposed but he had no objection to make the number
one-fourth instead of one-third.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the reason for diminishing
the number of ex officio guardians was that they would
thereby extend still further the elective principle.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers were,
For the amendment 23
Against it 5B

Majority
On our return to the gallery we found
Mr. HINDLEY moving an amendment on the same
clause, to the effect that the rate-payers should elect the
member of Magistrates which, by the Act, were to be
Members of the Board of Gurdians.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was very sorry that he
could not agree to the alteration proposed. He thought
that the Magistracy ought to be allowed to select out of
their own body such of themselves as they thought best
fitted to perform the duties of Members of the Board of
Guardians.
Mr. HUME submitted to the Noble Lord whether he
would not reconsider what he had stated. He was sure
that the Noble Lord must be anxious to make this Bill
popular, and he (Mr. Hume) was quite sure that that ob-
ject would not be answered by the rejection of this amend-
ment.
Mr. Sergeant WOULFE supported the clause.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he had but little hope of this
Bill working well ; but it was impossible that it could work
well if they allowed the Magistrates to become members of
the Board of Guardians, unless with the qualification pro-
posed by this amendment.
After a few words from Mr. LYNCH, which were inau-
dible in the gallery,
Lord MORPETH said he hoped that this Bill would
prove popular and work well, but he did not think that
popularity should be the only consideration.—(Hear.)
They had not this consideration only in view when they
introduced the English Poor-law Amendment Act.—(Hear.)
There was in that Act a corresponding provision to the
present, the only difference being, that whereas in England
all Justices of the Peace might be members of the Board of
Guardians, they proposed that for Ireland a certain number
of the Magistracy only should be elected from the Board
of Guardians. He thought that the Magistrates were
themselves the best judges of the persons who were best
qualified to represent them, and he must therefore oppose
the amendment.
After a few words from Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN,
Mr. JEPHSON said he would oppose the amendment,
as he thought tient the effect of it would be to do away with
e.r-qtficio guardians altogether.
After a few words front Mr. HAMILTON and Mr. M.
L. CHAPMAN, the Committee divided, when the num-
bers were—

For the amendment 32
Against it 5O
Majority
Mr. O'CONNELL proposed that the appointment of
magistrates to the office of guardians should be in the Lord
Chancellor.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON and Lord MORPETH op-
posed the Amendment, which was negatived without a di-

vision.
Mr. O'CONNELL then proposed to add to the clause
a proviso to the effect that no more magistrates should vote
at any meeting than in the proportion of one-fourth of the
whole meeting.
Mr. WOULFE thought that it would be injudicious to
restrain Magistrates from the assiduous performance of their
duty. _

Mr. MACLEAN remarked that it was frequently the
case in England that the Magistrates were the only Mem-
bers of the Board of Guardians who attended to the busi-
ness of the day.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was quite true that in Eng-
bland the Magistrates did the whole of this business ; and
this was what he wished to avoid in Ireland.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said that if the same tendency
should manifest itself in Ireland, the public business, under
the proviso of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny,
would be effectually stopped.
The proviso was then withdrawn, and the clause agreed to.
On clause 26 being proposed,
Mr. SHARMAN CRA WFORD objected to the arbi-
trary power proposed to be given to the Commissioners of
appointing guardians under certain circumstances. He
moved the omission of this passage from the 12th to the
32d line of the clause.
Sir R. FERGUSON objected also to the power given
in the two previous lines, of removing the guardians, if they
did not act with due diligence in obedience to the orders of
the Commissioners.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN concurred in this objection.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the jealousy of the Com-
missioners was a very unfounded one. This clause would
give the means of correcting many of the evils of the former
clause. The question was, whether the Commissioners
were to have an efficacious and controlling power over the
guardians ; if so, the words were essentially necessary.
Mr. HI NDLEY remarked that this provision only re-
lated to the elected guardians, and not to those who were
so ex officio.
Mr. O'CONNELL pointed out that the clause men-
tioned " the guardians" generally.
Lord MORPETH said that unless some power of this
kind were given to the Commissioners, they might run the
risk of having the whole system stopped for want of efficient
means of carrying it on.
After a conversation, in which Mr. Finn, Sir R. Fer-
guson, Lord Clements, Mr. Lynch, and Mr. Sergeant
Jackson took part, the gallery was cleared for a division.
For the amendment 2l

Against it 6B
Majority
On the gallery being re-opened, it was understood that
Mr. Sergeant Jackson had moved another amendment on
the same clause of nearly the same nature, when the Corn
mittee divided—
For the amendment...
Against it

23
63

Majority —4o
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 27 being put, which gave power to the Com-
missioners to appoint paid officers,
Lord CLEMENTS moved an additional clause, to duo
effect that the Commissioners should have the power to
order the expenses for travelling and attendance incurred
by the Guardians to be paid out of the rates, provided there
were not more than fifty-two attendances in the year, at
the rate of 3s. each.
Mr. LUCAS opposed the amendment.
Mr. O'CONNELL was in favour of the clause, and
trusted it would be agreed to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was opposed to it, because
he considered it highly objectionable to have a body of paid
guardians.
The amendment was then negatived without a division.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN objected to giving the Commis-
sioners the power of appointing paid officers, and moved
that the clause be omitted.
Lord MORPETH trusted the Hon. Member would
not persist in his motion, as the power thus to be delegated
to the Commissioners would be exercised only in cased of
urgent necessity.
The clause was eventually agreed to.
To the 28th clause Mr. O'CONNELL moved, as an
amendment, to expunge the words prohibiting the Clergy
from attending the meetings of the Board of Guardians,
and to insert words allowing all persons in holy orders, re-
sident in the district, to attend, and to take part in the
discussions, but not to vote.
This amendment was opposed by Lord J. RUSSELL
and Mr. WOULFE, on the ground that, although in
most cases the Boards of Guardians would gladly avail
themselves of the local information which the Clergy had
it in their power to communicate, it might be attended
with inconvenience to give the Clergy an absolute right
to be present.
Mr. O'CONNELL maintained that the presence of no
persons at the meetings of the Boards of Guardians could
be so useful as that of the Clergy of all persuasions. The
manner in which the Bill was drawn up threw a stain upon
them. It was well known that in all matters of charity,
the Clergy of Ireland, however they might differ on reli-
gious points, acted with perfect fairness and unanimity.
However, he would not press his amendment to a division
at present ; but he gave notice that at some future period
he would move to expunge the words of which he complained.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 29 to 31 were agreed to.
On the 32d clause being put,
Sir ROBERT FERGUSON moved as an amendment,
to omit the words " surveying and valuation of property to
be rated." He proposed this amendment because an im-
mense expense had been incurred in making a survey and
valuation by the Ordnance, and lie could not see why this
expense should be incurred under the operation of this Act.
Lord Viscount MORPETH admitted it would be bet-
ter to abide by the Ordnance survey now going on, but as
it was not completed it might be necessary to effect it
under this Act.
Mr. Sergeant WOULFE said there was no compulsion
to make the Commissioners undertake this survey and valua-
tion unless it were really necessary.
After some further conversation,
. Sir ROBERT FERGUSON withdrew his amendment,
saying he would bring the matter forward on the next fa-
vourable occasion,