The Sun.
London, England, 1830-06-23 00:00:00

alone are practically conversant with the nature and
operation of this crime, or men having to do in all
the transactions of their life with negotiable securi-
ties, and with nothing else, but we have the autho-
rity of one of the gteateet lawyers, and one of the
ablest Judges that ever sat upon the Bench, I meats
Sir William Grant. It was by him affirmed, that in
cases of forgery there was always an actual conapi-
acy between the prosecutors, witnesses, Counsel,
:fudges, and even the responsible acheisers of the
Crown itself, to defeat the purposes of the law, and
prevent its ultimate execution. If that can be proved
to exist in the case of any particular law, and that it
eas be shown in this individual case is indisputable,
am I not warranted in assuming that the effect of such
sentiments will be to frustrate the proposed enact-
ment? and tender its operation altogether nugatory. If
then these scruples exist in the minds of some men,
and if under the influence of these scruples, they de-
feat the objects of the present measure, is it not in-
finitely better that we should try the experiment
of a different penalty rather than induce men, in the
embarrassment which results from a sertse of the
duty, which on the one hand they owe to a fellow
creature, and on the other to society—rather, I say,
than induce them to pursue a line of conduct that
amounts to nothing less than a practical abrogation
of a particular statute. Besides, we should remem-
ber that the knowledge that this penalty has been twice
rejected by a majority of the House of Commons,
cannot but hare the effect of overcoming any sense
of duty that men may entertain respecting the duties
which they owe to society in this respect. I will
not say whether, in pursuing this line of conduct,
they act with strict propriety, or not ; but this I
will say—that in abstaining to prosecute in cases
of forgery, they do nothing which will cause
them to suffer in the estimate of mankind. Now,
my Lords, if this penalty have the effect of scaring
prosecutors, but not of scaring criminals at Newgate
—if it have the effect of clogging the operations of
law to a great degree in all that relates to
this offence—if it be not only likely to do that
for the future, but can be shown to have done
it hitherto—if, as I affirm, this be the case,
is it not better, by yielding to public opinion, to
call into life that activity and disposition to pursue
with diligence and zeal, delinquents of the class of
whom I have been speaking, than by a resistance to
the general feeling, prevent the due execution of the
laws. After the best consideration which I hare
been able to give this subject, I am persuaded that
the best course your Lordships can adopt, will be
to read this Bill a second time, and impart to it such
improvement in the Committee, as, under circum•
stance s, it was capable of; lam perfectly ready to
admit that this is very much a matter of experiment,
and should it be tried and fail, there can be little
doubt that a very different disposition will be ex-
cited throughout the country from that which at
present prevails. Do not let it be supposed that I
am so confident with respect to this experiment as
to suppose that there exists no chance of its failure;
but my opinion of the great prospect of its success
leads me to the conviction that we ought to try the
experiment, and that in present circumstances we
should ill discharge our duty did we not try it. But
I do not ask you to make this a permanent mea-
sure ; if you Irish, make it merely temporary --for
five years, or for any other period you may think
proper.•—(Hear, hear.)—lf in the Committee we
agree to make it temporary, that does nothing to
affect the principle of the Bill; and if at the end of
five years it be found an advantageous measure,
there will be no difficulty in its confirmation;
whereas, if it fail, there might be considerable diffi-
culty in procuring its re-enactment ; but into all these
considerations I shall most readily enter, should this
Bill rench a Committee. There is another clause in the
Bill which may in die Committee require to be con.
►idered—l mean that for secondary punishments. I
do believe that more effect would be produced be
their being confined in the hulks at home, or being
sent to the Island of Bermuda,than perhaps by other
punishments; for deep and permanent di-grace is
more likely to deter minds of the cast of those likely
to commit forgery than men of any other stamp, for
they were generally persons who desired to raise
themselves to a situation of life to which they were
not naturally entitled, and to whom, therefore, the
punishment of disgrace is peculiarly formidable. For
liese reasons, then, I hope that your Lordships re;'

give this Bill the advantage of a second reading.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said that the Noble
Marquis who spoke last had truly described the
Bill under consideration as an experiment; but he
would add, that it was an experiment which, in
justice to their own character, and from a due regard
to the interest of the country, they were bound to
try. He had resolved upon giving the measure his
most cordial and hearty support. He did so not
from being attracted by its novelty—not from any
love of change—for he could conscientiously say
that he never was influenced in support of any mea-
sore by any other considerations than a sincere con-
viction that they were calculated to promote the
public good. He believed he should stand acquitted
in their Lordships' opinion of any undue predilec-
tion for novelty or change, merely as such ; and it was
with regret he remembered that, not long since,
changes had been made that tended to results which,
he feared, this country would long have reason to
deplore. With respect to the particular Bill then before
them, he begged to say that he had serious doubts
whether the Legislature of any Christian country could
find itself justified in inflicting the punishment
of death for such a crime as forgery. lie saw no
warrant for it in Scripture, nor even for other ca-
pital punishments inflicted under our criminal code.
He thought that capital punishments ought to be
confined to murder, and to such instances of personal
viol( nee as might lead to the loss of reason or of
bodily health, and to cases of rape. lie felt called
upon to sta'e, that in the view which he took of
this question, he was not influenced by any party
considerations whataver—indeed, so far apart from
any feelings connected with party was the discus-
sion of such a Bid, that he should not have deemed
it necessary to make this declaration had he not
heard that a cry of faction bad been raised, and an
attempt made to impute factious motives to the
party with which he was politically linked. He was
opposed to his Majesty's Government, because he
thought that Government composed of men unqua-
lified for the situations which they filled, and be-
cause he thought their possession of power incon-
sistent with the security of the State; therefore,
every opposition which he gave the Government in
that House arose solely from a conscientious con-
viction that their measures did not tend to the good
of the country. But, on a question like the present,
he hoped the Hoti,e would do him the justice to
believe that no feeling of opposition influenced him
one way or the other. He entreated the House to
remember that the infliction of death in such cases

had the effect of rendering Juries reluctant to find
verdicts of guilty, and deterred prosecutors from
preferring indictments. Though the returns before
Parlian.ent showed how numerous were the cases
of prosecution, yet they proved nothing as to the
number of cases in which the crime had been com-
mitted without any prosecution at all. On those
grounds, and simply on those, the measure for abo-
lishing capital punishments should receive his cor-
dial, though humble support.
The Duke of RICHMOND fully concurred in
the opinion that the present question should be dis-
cussed altogether apart from any feeling of party.
As to his own opinion on the expediency of abolish-
ing capital punishments for forgery, he confessed he
found it much strengthened by learning, that a ma-
jority of the House of Commons held the same sen-
timents; that a majority of that house were con-
vinced that capital punishments should be abolished
in cases of forgery, amongst other reasons, for the
purpose of rendering prosecutors less unwilling to
indict—Juries and Judges less unwilling to convict,
and also for the purpose of relieving the Secretary
of State for the Home Department from the dis-
tressing situations in which he often of necessity
found himself. On these grounds, then, he would
vote for the clauses as they then stood; but in doing
so, he certainly could not, like his Noble Friend who
'poke last,
that be was influenced by any relic