The Sun.
London, England, 1830-05-22 00:00:00

AT MILLBANK.

Mr. G. R. DAWSON moved that a sum not exceed-
ing 21,1351. be granted to his Majesty for defraying the
expense of the Penitentiary at Millbank.
Mr. HUME said that the plan at first arranged with
respect to the number of prisoners to be kept in the Pe-
nitentiary had been departed from, and that the expense at
which the convicts were supported was much greater than
ought to be incurred, considering the little practical good
derived from it. He put it, therefore, to the Right Hon.
Gentleman, whether this expense ought to be incurred, or
whether it would not be better to g;ve up the establish-
ment altogether, and adopt the system of transporting all
convicts on whom sentence of transportation was passed.
He repeated, that he would have every person transported
on whom that sentence was passed—more particularly the
women, as, from the great disproportion between the nu-
merical amount of the sexes, they were more necessary in
the colonies of New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land
than men. He would therefore send every woman, old
and young, who was sentenced to transportation, at once
out to those colonies. The young, it was known, would
be a useful addition ; and the old women became young
when they got out. Referring to the convict system in
this country, the Hon. Member contended, that it was
objectionable in point of its effects on the convicts them-
selves, and also, through them, on society ; and likewise
on the ground of expense. If a proper system were adopt-
ed, a saving might be made of 120,000/. or 130,000/. a
year, which was now expended in supporting convicts.

Mr. PEEL said, the Hon. Member had asked him whe-
thir he considered the advantages of the Penitentiary
countervailed the expences. He would say, that if it
were now proposed, for the first time, to expend 500,0001.
for the erection of such an establishment, he would pause
before he consented to it. But the question was, whe-
ther, having the building now, the whole should be aban-
doned? This establishment was conducted, not under the
direction of the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, but by a Committee appointed by the Privy Council,
who advised him as to its management, and which was
composed of humane individuals, who gratuitously devoted
a large share of their time and attention to this object.
He had once thought that it might prolutb;y be better if
the whole were under the direction of the Home Secre-
tary, but a Committee appointed to investigate the sub-
ject had come to a different conclusion. As a system of
secondary punishment, the Right Hon. Gentleman de-
fended the convict system at home, and observed, that
from a report made by the Navy Board, it appeared the
labour of convicts was valued at 67,5701, exclusive of
9,5001., the amount of work done on their own account;
but the whole charge of them did not exceed 70,500/.
The value of convict-labour ut Bermuda was estimated
still higher. He owned, however, that he was willing to
go into inquiry on this subject. With respect to sending
out female convicts, he admitted that it was desirable to
send out a large proportion, but it would appear that opi-
nions were divi led on this subject. The Hon. Member
would have every woman, o:d and young, who was sen-
tenced sent out ; whilst others who had given the sub-
ject much attention were opposed to sending any.
In a pamphlet just published on this subject by
Mr. Holford, this practice was referred to as
" the monstrous principle avowed at the Home
Office, of sending out females without reference
to the means which existed of providing for them at
home." The Hon. Member had contended for the policy
of sending out all convicts, because a convict could, the
moment he arrived in the colony, obtain the means of pro-
viding for himself, and of living at ease. This might be
a good argument for an emigrant, but how it could ope-
rate as a mode of punishment he was at a loss to know.
Ile might take this opportunity to mention, that measures
Were already in contemplation, which would have the effect
of making the punishment of transportation more severe.
The fear of that punishment was very different in different
countries. In Ireland, for example, it was particularly
dreaded, while the inhabitants of large towns generally for
the most part viewed the subject with less anxious feelings,
partly influenced, no doubt, by a love of change, and
partly by the frequent favourable accounts of the pros-
perity of the settlement. The Hon. Gentleman should
remember the probable difficulty of finding labour for 200
or 300 convicts in a new settlement, together with the
great expense of a sufficient military guard. In fact, the
expenditure he must soon see would be enormous, if he
took into calculation the cost of building a place of con-
finement—the salaries of surgeon and chaplain, and all the
other numerous charges incidental to such an establish-
ment. In the settlement at Bermuda, punishment and
labour were successfully combined, to a degree which had
never been effected elsewhere. Employment was there
found for 1400 of the strongest and most active prisoners ;
but in Canada, and the other settlements, the principle of
applying convict labour had comparatively failed. Various
opinions, he was aware, existed on the subject of the ma-
nagement of the hulks, but be was decidedly of opinion,
that they deserved encouragement on the ground of eco-
nomy. He, however, felt rather a wish that an inquiry
might be instituted into their expediency as compared with
the system of banishment to New South Wales, but not
from any desire to relieve himself of &share of his official
responsibility.
Colonel DAVIES wished to have an inquiry appointed
with a view to a reform in secondary punishments gene-
rally, as he felt a perfect conviction that the ordinary dis-
cipline of our gaols, and the entire system, as now con-
ducted, served only as an inducement to the perpetration of
crime. It was notorious that the convicts on board the
hulks were in every respect much better off than the agri-
cultural labourers in Kent.
Sir G. MURRAY defended the authorities of New
South Wales from the charges insinuated by the Hon.
Member for Montrose.

..—....„
Mr. MABERLY considered hulks as possessing many
advantages over the Penitentiary, on account of the extra-
vagant cost of the latter. He wished to see the establish-
ment taken out of the hands of Commissioners, and placed
under the department of the Secretary of State. A large
reduction ought to be effected in the establishment,—the
pay of the Governor in particular was too much, amount-
ing as it did to 600/. a-year besides perquisites, which
might be estimated at 2001. a-year more.
Sir R. PEEL reminded the Hon. Member that the
officer in question was obliged to live the life of a convict,
spending night and day within the walls of the establish-
ment. Under such circumstances he was sure the House
would not consider this salary more than an adequate
compensation for the disagreeable duties which were im-
posed by such an office.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. HORTON thought the subject of secondary
punishments one of considerable importance, and proposed
to bring it regularly under the consideration of the House
before the end of the present Session.
Mr• ROSS observed, that material reductions had been

already made, and that many more were in progress. The
estimate of the current year was less by 1,6001. than that
of last year.
Mr. HUME animadverted on the amount of the secre-
tary's salary (4001. a year), which he deemed extrava-
gant, looking to the trifling duties he was required to
discharge.
Sir T. FREEMANTLE defended the management of
the Penitentiary, which he maintained was an establish-
ment that materially conduced to the moral interests of
society.
Sir T. BARING pronounced the charge to be extrava-
gant, compared with the known expence of maintaining
prisoners in county gaols.
The resolution was then agreed to ; after which the
House resumed, the report was brought up, and ordered
to be taken into further consideration on_ Monday next.