The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-14 00:00:00

her to which he had adverted. It was not the mere paying
•xpence in the pound for rates for Churches built since he had
►cquired property that the party in question complained of.
He complained (perhaps he did not sympathise in it) that
the Church-rates which were in existence when he acquired
t'lis house were the old Church-rates ; but then he said that
Church-rate was incurred for a new churchyard, and yet
vhen a person died in his (complainant's) house, he was
• !harged 62/. for burying him, The whole amount went to
he Rector. As he had contended on a. former evening, the
Church-rates were, in common sense, nothing more than a
ix upon property—a tax totally distinct in its character
..rom tithes. Tithes were a deduction from property every
me knew, but they would now be converted into a positive
ixed amount, which, if not received by the Church, would
:o to the landlord, and not benefit the country at large. Tithes
tnd Church-rates were two things so distinct that there was
no sort of analogy between them. An objection to the pay-
ment of tithes on the part of the landowner had no better
foundation than the objection an individual would have, who,
'laving bought a property subject to a rent-charge, afterwards
thjected to pay that rent-charge. The Right Hon. Baronet
had admitted that the present system was deeply injurious to
he utility of the Church ; he had admitted that in the year
1834, so convinced was he of the necessity of adopting some
!change, that be was prepared to assent to the measure at that
Cate brought forward by Lord Althorp. " But still," said the
tight Hon. Baronet, " the State, under any circumstances,
oust provide for the Church, and therefore it is that I object
o the measure at present brought forward ; because, under
he operation of that measure, the Church will be made to
naintain itself." He (Lord Howick) begged to dispute the
tatter proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet. He maintained
:hat, under the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, the State wouid still continue
o support the Church ; at all events it would continue to
support it quite as much as it could have' done under the
measure proposed by Lord Althorp. The Right Honourable
Baronet, adverting to what fell from an Honourable Gen-
lemon on tint (the Ministerial) side of the House on a

former evening, when the subject of Church-rates was
unde'r discussion, said, " The argument used on that oc-
casion was quite unfair, the precedent of the Irish Church
.foes not apply to the English Church—there is no analogy
between vestry cess in Ireland and Church-rates in England
—there is a vast difference in the circumstances of the Church

n the two countries." He ( Lord Howick) wished that when
:hey were discussing other topics the Right Hon. Baronet
could as distinctly see the difference that existed between the
two Churches.—( Hear, hear.) It was, however, unnecessary
to introduce the-subject of the Irish Church on that occasion.
Seeing a practical evil existed in England—seeing that the
keeping up the existing system interfered materially with the
usefulness of the Church—seeing that it impaired its popu-
larity in the estimation of the country generally—seeing that
it tended to injure the cause of religion, itself—seeing also,
from another source, the means of making an adequate end
,atisfactory provision for what he admitted to be very essen-
tial purposes, he for one was fully prepared to adopt the
change then proposed to them —( Hear, hear.) The Right
lion. Baronet said, " If you arc prepared to do this, why was
the It.port laid before the House, signed by five Cabinet Mi-
nisters, in which it was stated that in the opinion of the
Commissioners it would be inexpedient that episcopal
property should be improved in the manner proposed ?" If
the Right Hon. Baronet looked well at the Report he
would see that the grounds assigned for not attempting the
p-oposed improvement of episcopal lands was, that it would
transfer the whole interest of that description of property into
the hands of the then-holding lessees. The Noble Lord here
entered into a statement of some length to account for the
vote given by hire and his Noble Friend in common with the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) last year against the
amendment moved by the Hon. Member for Middlesex ; but
in this, and indeed in several other parts of his speech, the
Noble Lord's voice was so extremely low as to be scarcely
audible in the gallery. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated
that he did not think it necessary that he should propose any
alternative to the measure proposed. It certainly was not ex-
pected that Gentlemen, acting in opposition to the Govern-
ment, should bring forward any matured measure to supply the
place of one to which they objeeted ; but, at the same time, it
was usual that they should state some general principles upon
which their objections rested, or unon which they should wish
te see the measure proceed. The. Right Hon. Baronet, how-
ever, on the present occasion, had confined himself strictly to
a general and sweeping objection, advancing no general
principle upon which he could wish to see the Bill Fro-
coed. The Right Honourable Baronet told them that the
measure would not satisfy the Dissenters ; that they would
demand a great deal more ; and that this concession
once made, would lead the way to many more. He
( Lord Howick) confessed that this was a mode of argu-
ment that always created a great deal of suspicion in his mind.
Ile Niel(' never regard it as a sound argument to say, " I will
not do this thing, even though it be good, because hereafter,
perhaps, other things may be asked that I shall not wish to
grant." He ( Lord Howick) had never known one instance
where the concession of what was just and right had led to evil
aftersvards.—( Hear, hear.) It was true that the lion. Mem-
ber for Middlesex might have ellutled to other measures which
the Dissenters would wish to see adopted ; but the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex, they all knew, was apt—be was sure the
Hon. Gentleman would excuse hire for saving so—to be ex.
ceedingly indiscreet in the language he held.—( Hear, hear,
awl laughter.) All that he (Lord Howick) entreated was,
that the present measure might be considered on its own se-
parate merits, and without any reference to the fancied mea-
sures that were to follow it. If it were good in itself, it
ought to be adopted. What was the real justice or in-
justice of the case ? In most of the large towns it ap-
peared the Churchmen and Dissenters were both of opinion
that the- system of Church-rates was not the most expedient
means of maintaining the fabric of the Church ; they were
both of opinion that it was highly injurious to the cause of
religion Was not this a sufficient ground for interference,
and for the introduction of some such measure as that then
proposed ?—( Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet said it
would be dangerous to the Church, because it would reduce
the Bishops to mere annuitants. No Church could be built
so:idly upon any other foundation than the affections and
respect of the people, a general sense of its importance to
the best interests of the inhabitants of the country, and a
feeling of gratitude for the service it had performed. If that
were the real foundation on which the Church of England
rested, and which he for one believed it did, there could be
no doubt that it would stand unshaken for ages yet to come.
—( Hear, hear.) If so, then, if there were no other object
in this measure than the taking from the Bishops those func-
tions which were now :mposed upon them, of immediately ma-
naging the property from which their incomes were derived,
it Vvould, in his opinion, be conferring an immeasurable ad-
vantage as well upon them as upon the Church itself.—
( Hear, hem) They had often heard of the extreme weight
of the Bishops' duties. Some, indeed, of the greatest orna-
ments of the Church had gone so far as to say that, looking
at the duties to be performed, the number of Bishops was
very insufficient ; and they had over and over again been told
that the sacred functions of the Bishops were amply sufficient
for the greatest mortal strength and greatest mortal ability.
[Upon this point the Noble Lord quoted a passage from a
pamphlet written by a distinguished member of the Church, in
which the arduous labours of the Bishops were elaborately de-
seribed.] The pamphlet, he said, went on to show, in a
manner that he thought quite conclusive, that it'
any additional leisure could be granted to the Bishops for the
discharge of their sacred functions, an immense advantage and
benefit would be conferred upon the Church ; and further on
it was argued, in a very able and masterly, but temperate tone,
that one of the chief faults of the Church of England was that
it partook too much of a worldly and secular character. He
( Lord Howick) wished he could honestly say that he thought"
there was no ground for that argument.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
If the Bishops, instead of having their time, their thoughts,
and their attention distracted by the management of their
landed estates ; if, instead of being in a situation full of temp-
tation, even to the very best of men—if, instead of this, they
received a well-assured, permanent income, and had leisure af.
forded them, apart from all wcrdly concerns, to devote their
whole energy and talent to their pastoral duties, it would, in
his opinion, be an immense benefit to them.—( Hear.) Had the
Right Hon. Baronet considered the temptations that the best of
men were exposed to from, the manner in which Bishops' lauds
were at present administered ? A Bishop entering upon his
see found hie income totally unsettled, and might at first be
in the receipt of absolutely nothing ; he found at the same
time, a natural disposition on the part of the lessee to drive
the hardest possible bargain with hitn. Here at once was
a ground of dissension, of discontent, perhaps of discord.
Again, as every lease fell in there was a contest about the
amount of the fine to be paid for its renewal. Here was an-
other ground •of discontent. Here there were temptations
to provide for a family by taking advantage of the temporary
power attached to the see. Here was the temptation to the
young Bishop to run his life against that of tie lessee. There
was the temptation to the old Bishop to conclude on any terms
with time lessee, and to make a renewal rather than run the
chance of leaving the profit of the fine to be reaped by his suc-
cessor. Would any man tell him that these details of worldly
business were not great temptations in the way of men whose
thoughts and energies should be wholly devoted to their pasto-
ral duties ? More than that, would any man tell him that the
Bishops of the English Church had never been suspected of
going beyond an honest and decent regard to their own inte-
rests and the interests of their successors? Would any man
tell him that there had not been accusations against the:Bishops
of providing for their families in a manner not creditable to
them either as Christians or honourable meal ? He did not

say that these accusations were true—he trusted and be-
lieved that if in some instances there might have been a
foundation for them, in the great mass they were altogether
groundless.—( Bear, hear.) But the very circumstance that
such things could he said and believed even for a moment, was
Most deeply injurious to the whole of the Church, and, more
than anything, perhaps, would teal to alienate the affections,
of the people rim their clergy. He maintained, then, that it
was not an advantage to the Church that the present. state oP
things should continue. The Right,linn. Baronet said, that
under the existing system the Bishops had an opportunity of
acquiring, the affection of their tenantry, by the lenity they
showed towards-them. The Bishops, no doubt, had opportuni-
ties of evincing their lenity and liberality, bat what was tilt
result ? Did they thereby gain the affections of their te-
uaitts ? Were the lessees generdly sAtiajj with the
terms on which their leases were retie fed ? In nine casoi
out of ten he would venture to say the Chureb lessee
complained of the terms on which he held his lease, He
was- aware, that the Right Han. Baronet had pointed out
ios,ane s in which great improveMents had taken place ;
and he (Lord Howiek) believed that to be the ease; but he
t Liught that if ever a system was ingeniously contrived for
makilig parties quarrel, and sctting them bv the ei‘ra,: it was
the system of leasing Church p.aperfy, ma by lessees,
renewable on payment of tins. But he would say more
o4t with refervnec tv thl Risher, indeed, bccaktse hid cbtcr.

vation would not apply so particularly to them—but in refe
rence to Ecclesiastical Corporations, he would say, that le
had known cases in which the power held by them had heel
used in a mateier which made the Church most unpopular.
Was any Gent; 'o an ignorant of the fact that there was no
county in Engiand probably in which dissent was more pre-
valent than in the county of Durham?—( Hear, hear.) Wit)
was dissent so prevalent in that county ? Nut because there
was any deficiency of wealth on the part of the Church.
one would tell him that the Church in Durham was deficient
in wealth:. No; the great prevalence of dissent, and the Brea
unpopularity of the Church in that county, arose merely fro.,.
this circumstance—that there was an immense mass of pro-
perty which belonged to the Church, and that there was a per-
petual collision between the lessees and the owners of that pro-
perty a?ising from the unfortunate tenure on which the pro-
perty was held— a tenure that formed a perpetual source of
irritation. He for one—not being altogether ignorant of that
county—firmly believed that this to a considerable degi'er
explained the extent to which dissent had proceeded there.
He came now to the last argment of the Right Hon. Baronet,
which was, that if we realized any surplus, to that surplus
there was a prior claim ; and the Right lieu. Baronet men-1
tioned, as ,eonsti:uting that prior claim, the necessity of pro-
viding further means for affording religious instruction to the
poorer eittiscs of this country, and for the augmentation uf
small livings: Now he (Lord Howick) believed there did
exist a necessity for much being done- to furnish religious in-
struction to the poorer classes of society, and he was very fa, -
indeed from withholding his /assent to any proposition fur that
purpose. 0 the contrary, be was not less anxious titan the
R'ght Her. Bar met himself, that\ steps should be taken to ex-
tend generally that religious instruction which was so essential
to the well-being of the people. But he begged to remind
the Right Hon. Baronet that, even supposing nothing more
were done in the way of removing the sinecures of the Church
than what was proposed by the Noble Secretary of State ( Lord
J. Russell) last session, yet in that case a very considerable
fund might be found for that purpose. But beyond that, the
Right lion. Baronet himself had shown that Parliament, anti
society generally, by private subscriptions, had already done
much. The Right Hon. Baronet had read the Report of the
Commissioners, showing that a great number of churches
had been built, and ministers provided : and that great sue
cuss had attended the efforts which had been made to extend
religious instruction amongst the people. lie ( Lord ilowick)
rejoiced that this had been attained. What was the inference
to be drawn from this ? Why, that neither Parliament nor
the country, when a case of necessity were shown, would be
backward to come forward—( A laugh)--to subset ibe. He for
one would promise elle Right Honourable Baronet that when-
ever he would digest the means of removint, what he con-
ceived to be a crying evil in this country, and would bring for-
ward a plan for extending reLgiens irstruc i n in the three
kingdems, he ( Lord Howick) was perfectly prepared to con-
sider those means, and adopt whatever might appear to be re-
quired. But since the Report of the Commissioners was
written, much more had been accomplished by private contri-
butions. He believed that in the metropolis alone a sons ex-
ceeding 100,0001. had been raised by private subscription for
the purpose of Church building—a subscription to which the
Duke of Bidford and the Hon. Member for Middlesex had
most magnificently contributed; a circumstance which ought
eot to be.kept out of view; especially when Gentlemen on his
(the Ministerial)-side of the -House were accused of holdieg
opinions inimical to the Church.—( Cheers.) But if private
means were insufficient, let the Right lion. Baronet make
out a case, and propose other means to supply the deficiencies,
and if the means proposed were not liable to any serious oh;
jection, he (Lord Howick) would promise the Right Hon.
Baronet his support. But before they applied any additional
revenue for the purpose of extending religious instruction'
among the people, they were bound in justice to the Church -
itself to show that the) had done what was possible in the way
of correcting existing abuses.—( Hear.) He ( Lord Hosviek)
felt that he had no case to go to tile country with and demand
a grant in substitution of Church-rates before he had done
whatever was p etsible in the way of removing those existing.

ahuses, by the application of a surplus; merely because there
was another purpose to which that surplus might be applied.
He a,greed in the prineiple laid down by his Noble Friend the
Member for North Lancashire with reference to the Irish
Church Temporalities Bill, that any surplus derivable from
Church property was applicable for any
purposes by Par.
liar-pent. He ( Lord Howick) did not consider the sum of
260:0001.• surplus to be a diversion of the existing revenues
of the Church, because it was by the means proposed to be
adopted a positive augmentation of those revenues to that
mount. His Noble Fsiend, in the case of the Irish Bill, thought
it would be exceedingly wrong to apply any surplus in any
other manner than for the benefit of the Church-; bat at the
same time lie was of opinion that Parliament had a right to
consider how that surplus might be applied to some Church
object. So, when he (Lord Howick) bolted at the question
n .)w before them with the same view, namely, that of opply-
mg the surplus to some Church object, it struck him that
there was to object to which he could so usefully apply that
surplus fund as to the abolition of Church-rates ; because it
appeared to-him that the continual agitation no the sulsjeet of
Church-rates, not only in, but out of Parliament, the bitter-
ness of feeling it excited both in
.Churchmen arrri Dis-enters,
the animosities which it created, were such an injury to the
Church that it was absolutely necessary it should be remove(.
—( Cheers.) But he did not think it could be effectually re-
moved by their now adopting (whatever might hare been the
case in 1834) the plan of his Noble Friend on the opposite
side. He was afraid that the time was gone by when they
could hope for that measure to be successful. 1,1 cases like
this they all knew that time made the %%hole difference.
Circumstances since 1834 rendered it impossible, with a view
to the real interests of the Church, that the plan of 1834
could be successful. Then there was no other resource to
which they could turn, except that to Which his right Hon.
Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proposed to turn,
and he did think that applying to that resource he should he
doing a benefit to all parties.—(Hear, bear.) He said
to all parties, because, although the Right lions Baronet had
very sliyhtly touched upon the subject, he thought it neces-
sary to sae a few words with reference to the interest of the
lessees. He did not collect from the speech of the Right Hon.
Baronet whether he proposed to avail himself_ of the means by
which Church property might be improved or not. It was a
point which he (Lord Howick) was peculiarly desirous te
know, whether the Right Hon. Baronet intended to avail
himself of this property in any manner or not. He ( Lord
Howick) was upon the whole disposed to consider that, as
related to the property of the Bishops, the Right
Hon. Gentleman did not ; because the objecting to make
the Bishops annuitants implied that it was not intended to
adopt any means of appropriating any of that property for
their benefit. Bet perhaps with respect to the property of
the Deans and Chapters it might be different. He ( Lord
Howick).' thought it would be for the interest of the lessees
holding property under -the Deans and Chapters to consider
whether there was any prospect whatever of obtaining a mea-
sure more calculated to promote their interest than the pre-
sent. Let the lessees reflect, that if the measure proposed
last session with respect 'to ecclesiastical sinecures were
passed into a law, the effect would he that there would be
no longer that interest in the lessors which now compelled
them to' grant renewals of leases of Chapter property ; be-
cause that property would then come into the hands of a Car.
poration which, instead of having an immediate personal in-
terest at stake as to the disposal of the property, would have
no such interest ; the probability, therefore, would be, that
very speedily some mode of management 'would be adopted
which would have the effect of depriving the lessees of those
advantages which they now possessed. But-independently of
that, he (Lord Howick) was prepared to contend, however
paradoxical it might s'und, that the lessees would be gainers
by the measure of his Right Hon. Friend; in common with
-the Church and• with the State.—( Cheers.) It had been
stated,. indeed, in another place, that it was quite impossible
that four gentlemen should sit down at a whist table and all
rise up winners. Certainly Olt seemed to be a very clear
and very obvious proposition. But notwithstanding the appa-
rent inconsistency of the assertion, he did believe that in- this
case that proposition did not hold pod. He was quite con-
vinced that there was a very large value of property lying
dormant, which might be realized by the measure proposed—
that without prejudice to the lesaces, but with positive ad-
vantage to them, and with advantage to the country, a large
surplus might be realized and appropriated with beneficial
effect to the Church itself. He would appeal to any Gentle-
man who was acqeminted with .Church property held under
lease, whether they did not find that the buildings were dila
pidated, that there was no planting, no draining, no permanent
improvement—whether, in short, the land was not'almost unit
versally a century behind other lands with regard to its state.
of cultivation ? fie would say, then, that it was most practi-
' cable, without injury to the lessees, by following an improved
system of cultivation, to derive a large sum to the benefit of all
parties. He felt that be bad trespassed upon the attention of
the Committee much too long--(Hear)---and he was perfectly
sensible that he very inefficiently attempted to follow the Right
Hen. Baronet through all the details of his able speech—
( Cheers from bath sides of the House)—but before I conclude
(said the Noble Lord) I cannot avoid calling upeu lion. Ger._
tlemen not to judge et' the measure proposed by his Male so as
Minister§ from the character given of it by the W.'
Baronet in the very eloquent conclusion of his se
let the inhabitants of the country be. tonne- • .'eetch. Loy 110 t
which he has drawn of churches Wine-
deserted, of a total cessation of' re ~ (I°'vnt of
eted byparishes
e tiult
income of srnell livings, or sup' - very the
. of that religious instruct' eaY the means of removing tae wart;
attempt to increase
towns. Do not le'
by this -character. th"o"colvuhn!th.y ujo*.wd n-celisotts' oi!tr' oamreaasrugree
it rather as a pl7a, walch is'
Hear h • t 2
a het them regard
cient means_ ' proendoer'' I(lleabry. way of affording effi-
for maintaining the r- brigse- of the Church, and of
compleki..
• y and satisfactorily in luring all those objects to
which Church-rates are now appl led ; at the same time of re-
moving the serious and continual contentions and disputes that
now exist in all the cities and tons its of this country, and which;
I am sorry to say, aro %Nitwits-I; to take place in not a feW
nu r agricultural disc-',ets.—( Hem hear.) Let there regard
it as a measure, also, for adv:.n eine; the natinnal wealth, by
Galling into.tatay the dormant reo ?abilities of Church property,
and, inereasiag to an estee 'sus extent the value of C.aseeseele
lap'.,,_ Cheers. Cheers.) Let them zew7ard it as a meaetwe Sox rest--
el" ting tsheeirnec°ZlQt hnetn. he
free from e ae'.esiastieal digriit:sri©e a riee this
country cu
all suspieiee of improper
iractices—fiect from all teml ation to consult their own inte-
rest% et the expertee of those .of their successors, or those of the
lessees; a measure to coahl I them to devote their whole time
to the diseflarge of thu :me orient duties which are entrusted
to thene.—..(Cheers.) Let the House and let the country, in
short, regard thie measure as one which is honestly and sin-
g u ely intended. for the wed' 'aro of the country, and for the wed
fare, and for permanently e xtending the mility, of the Chur,.n.
Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to explain one point. The
-Noble Lord, in the court, Ut. his speech, had paid him (Sir
Rebert Peel) the cornplim ent to suppose that ho was its atsos-
sessioa of a great deal of's nformvtion which had been wititivela
'rum hid Naj'l!;'3 Min.i2t errs, HQ dared wl'sci4 he

IlJuld get puss: scion cf additional information he should b..:
able to ina:,e a better than he had done; but lie was
really not aware of pos., -:qing nie tittle of inform:l:ion which
,vas not in possession of his M;j-sty's Govern.nent, and with
respect to the leFsees, which a mit. in the street migi,t-no:-
M. GRANVILLE HARcourcr W 3.3 CU3I) Ot=3:l tai's;
livve that there was a disposition 0:1 the port of the lessees to
of the terms oo Church-lands were leascil to
them. lie would mention an instance. Sir Joseph. Banks
held land under a lease to the Archbishop of York. Th.? sano
lernanded for rene4l 9(31'4. ••!ir Joscp!) aft3r,„,d
that on the last renewal he only paid 6001. r= was agreed to
ref r tne co. to Air. Alorgaa, acttrtry of .!o Equitable In-
.urance-office, and that ..,,,nalernan said t. 0t7.,e proper sum to
be received by the Archbishop of York. at :I.e per cent. in-
t,rest, was 1.800/ —(ll ar. hear, and i.aztitcr.) Now
this was a matter which had not been adverted to by any
Gentleman on .either side of the House.—(hear, hoar. )
rho, fact was, that the Archbishop was now invariably in
the habit of afplying to Mr. Moran for his calculations.—
( Laughter. and cries of .‘ Hear.") The Archbishop, how-
ever, made an exception—( Hear)—for he never referred cases
to Mr. Morgan wnere the lives in being were under the age
of 60. In Sir Joseph Banks's case there were too
bath b‘youd3O. With regard to leases for I:vr:.s, the gaieral
-practice was for the prelates to renew upon sit alloxance of
five per cent. interest ; and with r:7/rii to leases for years,
udon an allowance of nine per vont. interest. His co..vietion
was, that a very considerable fund could be rcalized the
mea,ure proposed by his M:jcsty's Government—( Ministerial
cheers)—but did ha say that that measure was, therefore,
politic or ju,o...._(Oppoition cheers.) Did he say, t xeept
by some hocus poet's nick which be could nut undorstand,
that any property so crested could he justly taken away f,-om
the Church? Suppose, with refrrsalee t i the*eace of the
Archbishop of York and Sir J.isepli LLtMine this measure
had passed pri -r to the difference b,tweeo tlp.7 9001. and the
1,8001. had .been ascertained, would. not ArchLishop still
have been entitled to that ditTer:!nce ? The cioarch in fact
had always possessed the po.ver of getting the full aalul,,
although they had never enforced it.—( Ucar.)
pout to which the Nohle Lord had referred, Rm.! tees en lee
'(Mr. Harcourt) did nut dissent from, was. with re:72rd to
the management of the property held under the Church.
Two years ago he should have said that Parliament had no
more right to interfere between the Bisirps and their leseeS,
or the Deans and Cnapters and their lessees, than it lied be-
tween the Dake of Devonshire or Earl Fitz William and their

tenants; that it had no right to say. because those two no-
blemen were not good landlords, or because they for the sake
of some Parliamentary object refused to grant leaes, an d
thereby presented an improved system of culthation on th. it
ei,tates, Parliament should create a capital out of their property
which did not before exist, and have the appropriatiol ,f it.
But he must now confess that he felt himself under some d,ffi-
catty upon the sul,j,et, and thought that some measure—c er-
tainly not the 111043ilre proposed by the Government—sit-43
be resorted to in order to relieve the Bishops from thy !,.ituaCton
into which they hat been thrown be the Citaoceli,r of the
Exchequir.—( Bear, hear.) The Government proposed to
confer upon the Bishop of London a duty which ma,: he ex-
tremely objectionable, to that Right 1?.,.5v. Prelate, and to the
other Commis tuners similar!y sit,.ated to .
that he should nave to supertntend the administratioa and col-

oction of portion of Iti.4 present yeventv‘, after it

aken from into. He could not coneeite how they ceeld con_
shier each an errangement to be either just or preees. lie
cordially-alp:eyed of the course w Itieh Lord Grey's Gatern-
ment proposed to take on this subject. He supportel the mea-
sure of Church-rates b: ought as by Lord Althorp, because be
thought it a measure based on sound and just principles; but
the present was a measure which was bsased merely on She prin-
ciple of popularity. In te-ery ssese—and he did not mean to
use the expression cams: ely—e: was a peace-offsring to the
Dissenters at the experee of the Church. it was, in point
of fact, giving away the eaJeerty of the Chure.li for the ry.1r....
pace of obtaining popularity. They had heard much ee-
specting a certain hackneyed quotation—"that a man might
do what .he liked with, his own ; " but the Governetent were
now going to the opposite extreme, and seemed to art on
the maxim, " tbat.they might do what they liked with that
which was not their own." Ile recollected meeting with a story
in some book of memoirs, the name of stitch lie at that ma.
merit forgot; which was very apropos of this sulj,et. Two
Bishops were conversing with Jetties I.....„respecting the right
of' the Sovereign to take possession of l:uarel, property, and
Neale, Bishop of Winchester, being aseed ey the Ki,,,• to
state his opinion, replied, " Gel forhid that your Majesty-
should not take it, for you are the breath of our nostrils."
The ether prelate, Bishop Williams, of Lincoln, was then
&lied upon to state what he thought of thiS doctrine, and he
answered, " That he could not tell what might be done with
other property ; but his M-ijesty, at any rate, mieitt take his
reverend brother's property, as he was the breath cf his nostaiisa"
—( A laugh.) There was'aamething of this mode of proceed--
ing in the present measure. He knew that recently seats in
Parliament had been obtained by influencing the passions of
the people against the Church. The Chancellor of the, Ex-
chequer referred to Sheiliald as a place where the system of
ehureh-rates bad worked extremely ill.
%Now it so liappenea
that in that place a number of new churches had been
erceted, and the amount of money received from the rental
of the paws was so lirge, that the incumbent of each Church
received a huge stipend. The Right Hoinurable Gentle-
mie quoted this as an instance of opposition to the pay_
ment of Church-rates before the passing of the Reform Act.
The fact was, that this mole from the peculiar ci .curnstances
of the place; it appeared that. certain funds for the purpose '
of building and repairing Churches were in the hands of a
number or persons called Church-burgesses, and it was stated,
that the money was nut properly embed. It was not only that
Dissenters, but nearly all the Church-rate payers, said the
these Church-burgesses should not be allowed to erect organs
and to adopt all sorts of plans as regarded the Church with-
out control ; they therefore resisted the imposition of Cent-cit-
rates. There was also the case of Attercliffe, where a most
conscientious-Dissenter, namely, the Duke of Norf., lk, had,
given the site of ground- for the Church and burial-ground_
The clergyman of this-place was a most excellent and oxen a_
glary lean, and the service of the Church of England was
becoming more and more popular every day under his iniris-
tration. The reason why the Church-rates had been refosisd
in this place was, because some years ago a personal difference
arose between the churchwarden and certain persons present at
the vestry. If they had got the measure of Lord Althurp
some years ago, they would have soon got rid of all those
feelings of excitement which now unhappily prevailed ; aryl
if it had been passed alien it was introduced, there would,
by this time, have been universal ' peace throughout 'tlae
country on this subject.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The princi-
ple on which the opposition now rested to the payment c;1
these rates was of a singular character. There would 6.1 nn
end to the opposition to the payment of taxes if any pee-sok
might be allowed to refuse payment on the ground th at hc• •
thought that the tax was not just or sound in principle. - The,
Government could not be justified in relieving part;.es from,
this tax, to which they-had been legally liable ever since the. •
Conquest, and to which they were still liable but for certaint
forms of proceeding in the vestry which neutralised the law
for a time, but which did not destroy it. The Right Hone
Gentleman quoted an extract from a pamphlet written by a
vet", able and learned Divine, a friend of his, who stated that
Bishops demanded a fine of two years' rent for the renewal of
a lease, while the Deans and Chapters only required a fine of'
one and a half year's rent. He did not know what might be
the case with all the Bishses, latt he knew that in the dioceses
of Carlisle and York, in, the renewal of leases, there was a
fine of one and a half year's rental. On this part of the sub-
ject he would say that he believed that, with regard to Deane'
leases; there would be a greater surplus than had been antiei -
pater' by the Right lion. Gentleman or the Noble Lord--
( Hear.) The Hon. Member for Leeds declared the other te en-
ing that the difficulty in Leeds was not to find Gl:droller, but
to find people to fill them ; whereas the fact -Ara, lima ,either,
the last two months a subscription for buildi-eg a new church
had been raised- in Leeds to the extent of not less than 12,0P0L
Mr. F. BUXTON had great satisfaeciou in finding, front
the statements of the Right Hon. Geatlernan near him, that
there was a latent fund whine bad hitherto :-.sseseed notice, from -
which so large a sum con'et he realised fer toe advantage .o'
the State, with this novel feature in it, too, that whild by alt
former contributions to the State some class or other had ocen
sufferers, here there would ho no sufferers at all ; for I'm
,n., all
that had appeared the measure- would operate espial'Y benefi-
cially for the leasaers,_for the lessees, and for the color
~unity at
large.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member said, k'
coed not
understand by what hocus-pacus the measure'coal'', be male to
benefit the community.—(Hear, hear.) -v' four, it riot throw
open a door hitherto closed for the outliay
vast dom by i
Passingaies of the Church, and thus
,weak!, of the country?
cultiva-
tion and increasing produce., add to, va„ mprovine
'sLrn,enwelti_at far'temperate language of the
Right lionvoetrirab the
ile
-
make an oarsato en wlO
,(ear, bear)—lac wished to
former- evening. It had been said on this subject on
a'
set" been declared that this measure
waj only I,se '. i n -H
Di a piece '''tt the conduct of Ministers in sill! Eases
that it. was a plar, having for its object,
r'n7:tettl.llPe.g e
eertilnire74; or Church-rates, but the destruction of the
F,s!sblishcd retturch, end the people generally were taught t:s
look upon
on-tt as a project for the extinction of religion ;throve
--
I ther.l, Hear, hear.) - New lie (Mr. Bustton) should be geed
, so know in what way this treasure could be made to :Imam_
pilsh this immense and terrible evil ? What did the mea-
-1 sure do ? Did it touch the doctrines of the Church ? 'Cer-
tainly not. Did it touch the ideo-mes of the Church? No 1
For -what bad been the income of the Church foe the last
century would he the income of the Church for the next.
century. So far fro;:, the property of the Church-, heing de-
teriorated int value, it would be improved. The alarm note,
mast loudly SOLllide'l to the people, however, was, that the
Measure vvoeld leave the ed;tleee of the Church ins rein,
and this was a delusions wnital one of the ceucluding.
real elee of the hie-lit' Hoe. Baronet tendtel to en-
cettrage.--L( Hear, leear, bear.) Now, could it be main-,
tante(' cast tie measure was calculated to br;ag about. such.
a cataatroobe ? Not in the slightest- degeee, It was se:A.
therel43:i no danger at present becaura, the law enforeed
the iseyaieet of Church-rates. ' 'The-,et., indeed, might., be
strong enough to contend vvith 4,,idividual yes:sten:T. nut it
remained to b seen whether it was stroae ettouolt ali eon-
. tend with cameined res'etance.--( Hear. ) Bet it sea; sail,
there is no ce:ebine,'s resista..e.e—the resistance is eotifined to
wens. Now , ;
Mott, -nr 'woe; was so contagious 'as the indisposi-
tion, grounded on /religious serupies, to pay a evoney-rate,
and thoagh it was exceedingly poealble Or; up to Co
prese•At sesement the resistance to C,tureitecates had leers
tirelted te• towna, yet when its was found by the rural re--
pulatior chat thin resis:ance on the p irt of the organ popule--
the-, hallbeen sereistful, le? (MI-. Fowell Bertten) waa• efraiit
tint sma disease anneal eaten I very rapidly among the sun,'
p puiation a 150..-( heat', hear. bear.) Cortrieerine
atinite
c:-is eneasere„ while providing for the due mainteeer(e. tr
the fabrics of the Church without cost to tle core-teals vse .
,
'sell ealenlated to put an end to the unhappy,:thleseai -,11.0'
illSVesiens which generally prevailed, Inc shou'et testa 't hi,