The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-05 00:00:00

They had more ships in commission and a larger number of
men than any time since the peace in that country. Ob-
jections, however, were taken to the force which they main •
twined. First it wan !add that many of our ships were se-
renty-fteure. When gentlemen would object, there was
no saying to what objections they would gb. because if
there was any one point to Which ajeciien had been taken,
and for which they 'claimed Credit for themselves, because
they *ere only acting in conformity with preceding Ad-
miralties—if there was any one point which was universally
approved of it was to wear out their small ships in time of
peace, and reserve the more formidable noes fur tittle of War
—( Hear, hear)—that was tht eotirse recommended by the
late Comptroller of the Navy, and he (Mr. Wood) was
satisfied that that was the proper course, to reserve the
more powerful ships for time of war, when their services
would be wanted. The next objection was, that the ships
were only half armed. Now there were three descriptions
of ships . First, flank ships in port, and it was perfectly
true that they had not their lower deck guns in—( Sir
Edward Codrington made some remark.) His Gallant
Friend said that the Howe had her lower deck guns in
—the others had theirs on the wharf, and he believed
that no vessel of war going out of harbour
would take in her guns until she got by Spi:hcad. The
next objection applied to line of battle ships employed in
conveying troops. Why the practice was the same in time
of war, and when Sir Joseph Yorke conveyed troops to
Lisbon in 1811 the 6 ships of the line employed were with-
out their lower deck guns—the other description of vessels
were the flag-ships on stations abroad, and others had
been led to suppose, from the statements made, that the
present Government had sent out less powerful ships to
d
re
d
lasr:test
ihslotetamrhn,t.oett.yro:iv,tilts.:
eno:
tutthhhmet iebsmtinhee :acts:
aiepf mtvsseet
theseth
rlwylloctirate frigates,
Idvfssrelatii
rgati
erptaoisbtroe(o;slr:
n.
egaa
runllepd‘
ahto
then (at!
tsef
heaenecoastmtseast
establishments
was,aoeedbpn it
a
n
f
if
they were allowed a ship of the line, as affording them
increased accommodation. For that. reason they hid been
sent, and for the additional reason that if a necessity arose
they could at once taken their lower deck guns, fill up
their complement of men, and become good seventy fours.
—(Cheers. Tile best proof he could give of that was
that out of three ships two had taken in their lower deck
guns, and the moment it was necessary to go to the coast
of America, the Cornwallis had taken in her lower deck
guns which were it Halifax, and the Welle3ley had done
the same since. To show how destitute of truth some of
the statements were, it was asserted that the only ex-
ception to that rule was the ship of the brother of the First
Lord, and it was true that the ship of Admiral Elliott was
an exception, but it was one exception, the other was not.
She was the only ship that had not her lower deck guns in.
—(
Loud cries of hear, hear.) The next objection was one
to wltich reference had already been made in the course
of the debate—that the ships were but half man-
ned. It was perfectly true, that in time of peace
they had only their peace complement 'on board. An
Honourable and Gallant Friend of his expressed an
opinion that there should be no such thing as a reduced
complement in time of peace. He thought he was justified,
however, in stating that all the distinguished officers, of
whatever party, who had at any time during the peace sat
at a Board of Admiralty, had been of opinion that a re-
duced complement was right during peace ; and, without
putting his opinion in competition with that of men better
qualified to pronounce one, it seemed to him that there was
no reason for putting such a complement into a ship it,
time of peace as would enable her to fight all her guns in
a protracted action—to undertake all the services which
would be required of them in time of war, and even to fur-
nish prize crews; end that a smaller complement might
do when none of these contingencies could arise.
He confessed that he felt himself incompetent to speak po-
sitively as to a hat ought to be the amount of a peace coin-
plimeet. The complements for the year 1834, and which
after all, the present Board were not answeraule for, were
much larger than the complements from 1816 to
1826. In 1826 the peace complements were very
considerably increased. Since then various changes
and alterations had been introduced. Supernumaries had
been given in some caAes, in others they had been with-
drawn, but no sort of uniform plan had been persevered in.
In 1834 the complements were revised and a small reduc-
tion took place. Now he would readily admit that for
some ships, especially razees and those of a new class, the
peace complements in 1834 were too small—( Hear, hear)
—and they should have been disposed to increase them
earlier, hut from a feeling which he was convinced would
he duly understood by every one acquainted with public
offices—they did not like to deal immediately with parti-
eular interests. They hod then under considera-
tion the state of the Army and the Navy, and
also the relative efficiency of peace complements.
and at the risk of some inconvenience they thought it
better to postpone any change here until a system of ge-
neral alteration could be adopted. He received a few
days ago, a paper showing the reduction on the war esta-
blishment of 1814 of the previous peace establishment.--
The statements of this paper might be taken as a test of
the efficiency of the present peace complements. The
peace complement in 1816, which lasted for ten years,
was less by 24 per cent. than the war complement of 1814.
The peace complement of 1826 was 7 per cent, less ; in
1834 it was 8 per cent. ; and that in 1839, which was that
settled by the present Board, was 41- per cent.—( Hear,
hear ) He believed they had now sets led the peace com-
plements on a scale that gave satisfaction to the best offi-
cers in the service. He must here remark, that since the
meeting of Parliament the general charge that had been
made against the present Board of having reduced the force
of the Navy to a dtear'ee of dangerous wealsac3s had died
off a little. —( Laughter.) This was not the first instance
of what was a fierce outcry against the Government in the
autumn greatly subsiding since the meeting of Parliament.
The charge now against them was, that they had neglected
the defence of our own coast, which had been carefully
looked after in the time of Tory power—that so exposed
were our shores now that an American privateer might ap-
proach and burn one of our towns with impunity. It was,
in his opinion, odd, that the Tory atarinists had never
found this out until 1838. He (Mr. W.) stated, in 1836,
that seeing the defenceless state of our coast in 1835, he
thought it was advisable to increase the force which
guarded our own shores. But he would remind the House that
the arrangementqfor the year ;the voting of men for the putting
:hips in commission were made in the spring—especially when
a Government was going out—(Laughter, and hear, hear)—and
the new Government. had not the power of altering the scale.
He did not blame the Right Hon. Baronet opposite for the ap-
pointment of officers and for other arrangements. What he
meant was, that they, though finding a force of reduced ships
and reduced men when they came into office, had riot the power
of putting other ships into commission.—( Hear, hear.) He
would admit that they might have formed a supplement later
ie the year.—( Hear.) But if it so happened that the Right
Hon. Gent. opposite and his colleagues admitted that their voteof
men wastoo small by far before they left office, why did they not
mend their own estimate. (Laughter, and hear, hear). Now
he would say a few words on the contrast between the systems
of the former and the present Board. The former system was
three half-manned guard ships in each port : and a worse sys-
tem for officers and men had never been adopted. This was
continned by the Right Hon. Baronet in 18.32. The Navy, as
he left it, consisted of flag-ships which were not sea-going, a
certain number of demonstrated ships not sea-going, and an
active force, all of which were sea-going ships. The Right
Hon. Gent. might, if he did not tike that state of things,
have commissioned seine large ships. But he did no such
thing; he thought there was quite enough. On the Ist Jan.
and the Ist July 1835, there was not a single sea-going
ship in any of our ports. So much struck were the
Board with this deficiency, that their first act in June,
1835, was to station three efficient flag-ships in the ports,
and from that time to the present there was a three-decked
ship in commission in each of our ports. A great (teal had
had been said about the advantage of ships as tried in sending
troops to Canada in 1827. One would think that we had sent
no troops to Canada in 1838. There was a greater number sent
out then, and the service was most efficiently performed. Now
in summer they kept a certain number of disposable ships
either in experimental squadrons or at a distarce, whence,
through the medium of steam enmmunication, they might be
speedily collected. Now, having experimental squadrons out,
which might be called home when wanted, was, he submitted,
a better system that that of having half-manned guard ships in
port. Since 1835 they had every summer a strong force be-
tween the ships in port and the squadrons off the coast of
Spain and Lisbon. In 1835, when the present Board was not
responsible for the arrangements, there was within that dis-
tance only one ship of i he line. In 1836, the first year of the
present Board, there were within that distance 14 ships of the
line; in 1837 there were 11. Li April last year there were
nine ships of the line in readiness at home ; of those four were
sent, to America in April; they returned in Augia,t ; they re-
turned, and there were one ships of the line again at home.
What, then, might be said of the defenceless state of the
country ; it must, he thought, be al:owed that the coust was
office, etv)er- much
better attended to now than when there were nine badly man-
ned ships of the line at home.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble
appeared
,p Friendhomeeare
d that had
hn a t
tmovedihne Dr,month
enenfeotmrh
brneefrt
,urir
IneBes3eosr
December
b ,thrhee complementsnnisll number
ril
,y .eaas or
years.
. ships2,s39.t
es that force,
Next year it was 5,497, just double.
somea
and !which
good deal of the system of the Right lion. Baronet,n,t.
whichwamsuheihps,mthcieey formidablealsor e tainedt,h
guard-shipslaNynitonwb eslt e r
aatntodn s de-
monstration
-ation ships
he me at, proi el), estimated. True, the demonstration ships
Hon.-
portionllar ne to
f wasth in
storesoffi ce ,w because were not in such a state of readiness as wh(ceTtntlc-
e
alsBts36atmhidat a..,great
masts
to sea, thleigglitiavgd
were so decayed that before the ships could go
the stores housed
--thus, o be replaced. Their plan now was to hais".
syo
articleready waassosardeierny
s
—thethßusig,htht oHungnh.thßeasrhninpestwwearse ninot
carOlsteteint,waasndfoutnhdedin
much better, and the ships were fitted for sea
occupied in fitting out these demonstrationshy
fitted ships. It
sot was
tree that, in time of peace, ships were not ra.d
applied to
A good deal had been said about the time which. lead been
pidly as they were in time of war; and this guard
ships equally with demonstration ships. With reference to
of these ships was
• necessary for their
done, which however was not absolutely y
this, he might state that many alterations were made, and
much that was important in the fittings
efficiency ; so that the time occupied in tnis manner, af-
forded no fair criterion of the time in which a ship could be
got ready for sea in an emergency. With regard to one
ship, concerning
ceoncnenrtnhiningghadwhich,been a
in ref
other,—he meant the Ganges,
state, from the best authority, that that ship could be
got ready for service in forty-tight hours. So far
. ,
seried:
be c to this subject, he
Ganges,—he
that
teas
sonceenranbelded any
he had gone on this part of the subject, anst now he came
to that part which related to the manning of the Navy.
true that at the close of
He did not believe that the manning of the Navy was
more neglected now than it had been at former periods
during peace. It was perfectly
the war there were a great number of seamen thrown out
of employment. In the Navy Estimates for 1812,
150,000 men were voted for the service of the Navy. and
in 1818 this vote was reduced to 14,000 men, so that making
every allowance that could possibly be called for, such
as for Foreign seamen who might have returned to their ow n
country, this would give 10,000 men, who could not find em-
ployment. It sy is true that the mannieg of the Navy pro-
ceeded now more slowly t.,an it had formerly, b u, this was oc-

particular in their selections than others; a great deal also tle-
peedeel upon the pluces at which the ship was fitted out, end
yet
.at SHOirifeess which was generally considered the worst
pe,ort t(4 out !si% /teens!, te most difficult
procure men 44 IteeeduV fdd L'erf fitted , out
e• ' •
M a efertniahtil jeincle it sereettien; &elicif
introduce order into a to: dirtiniish the necessity fce'
corporal punishment, and the easy held priaisalni VOo'rki,rig of the
ship; he could not see in what respect it Could Le eaniaired
objectionable ; hut, according to Captain Marryat's aceedie,
precisely the same complaints were made in America whenever
the ships of the State were manned from enlistment. The
'eight Hon. Bart. opposite had made great improvements in
ts mneetion -kith this subject. The unwillingness to enlist had
eery niucli dineinisheds the eine:looft nf the teen bed been
grhativ ithproied: and; With the kceptiten of the article dl pay
-es(Hear, }Mai) froth thE Cippesl ioh heeehes)esevra.s Much pre,
ferable to the merchant sereicej and the pay *as eery little
inferior. = (Cheers, and hear, hear, from the Mirriettrial
Benches.) Gentlemen opposite, in their statements the
this subject, had forgotten to take into their consideration the
ntimbef of petty officers in the naval service, who were all
taken from the same class of in. el al those eempesing the mer-
chant service, and who received much superior ply. This class
of officers, who were so deserving of every consideration, athl
on whoni the discipline of the Navy so much depended, had, he
was happy to state. recently received a material augmentation
of pay. The pay of petty officers of ships of the line had been
increased so as to be equal to that of the first rates, as in all
other ships a proportionate increase had, taken place,
amounting, in some of the smaller ships, to as much as
seven shillings a month. With regard to this question
of pay, the difference was not so great between the naval ser-
vice and the merchant service in this country as in America,
Our naval pay is much nearer the merchants' pay than the
American naval pay. In America the merchants' pay amounted
to about 31. a month, and the State pay 21. In England the
merchants' pay is about 21. lOs. a month, and the naval pay
about 1/. 103. So that the American merchants' pay amounts
to 42/. a year, and the State pay 24/. a year, making a diffe-
rence of 18/. a year between the merchants' and the State ser-
vice ; while in England the pay in the merchants' service
amounts to 251. 4s. a year, and in the naval service amounts to
22/. 25., making a difference of 3/. 2s. a year—not so much as half
the difference between the pay of the merchant and the pay of
the State, as there is in America. lie did not apprehend that
under ordinary circumstances any great difficulty would be ex-
perienced in manning the Navy. There would always be a
difficulty calculated upon sudden emergencies. With regard to
this question, there was an argument which did not apply to
questions on other subjects. There would never be a much
greater number of seamen brought up to the sea than there was
a demand for. The total number of seamen then remained
pretty nearly the same. Consequently, when there was any
demand for the naval service, it immediately pressed upon the
merchant service, and occasioned an increase of pay ; and it
was a remarkable fact, that during the whole period of the
distress which had pressed so heavily on the country, no lower-
ing of wages had taken place among seamen, and when, in
1633, they made so small a demand for the increase of the
Navy as 3,000 men, complaints had been made to the Admi-
ralty, that ships were lying in the River, unable to proceed
on their voyages, because the naval service had taken all the
men. Therefore, he thought that any increase which took
place, should take place slowly and gradually : and he considered
that the best method of recruiting the naval service was, by
bringing up boys to the service, when they were properly
trained up and made better seamen of than they possibly could
be by any other method. He had now finished with that part
of the subject, and would proceed to remark on the statements
which had been made concerning the foreign navies. With re-
gard to Russia, it was a necessary condition of that power that
she should maintain the same navy inpeace which she might want
in war, because site had no merchants' service from which she
could recruit. With regard to the American navy, Captain
Marryat had stated on authority upon which he could rely that
America depends on this country not only for the manning of
her state navy, but of her merchant navy also, that in fact by
far the larger portion of seamen navigating American ships
were Englishmen. With regard to other nations, France relies
on her merchant service for manning her navy, and has a cons
scription of-the seamen for this purpose. With regard to this
conscription, Baron Cruvelhier reports certain facts which are
very curious and satisfactory in reference to this case. He
shows that in 1831 the number of registered seamen amounted
to 90,000, of these 37,000 were landsmen, apprentices,
or fishermen- —lB,OOO were above or below the Fri-
per age, leaving 35,000 available seamen, of whom
18,000 were already in the King's service, leaving 17,000
only who could be available under an emergency. He
did not give this account as exact, although it was taken from
official accounts, but it was sufficiently so for the purpose of
comparison ; he would compare this with the number of regis-
tered seamen in England, who had been registered under the
provision of the Bill of the Right Hon. Bart. It amounted to
to 200,000, he did not state this as exact, he believed the exact
number was 2041000, but allowing for deaths and casualties he
thought he might be permitted to take the number
at 200,000. This register did not include tee whole
of our maritime population, but he thought he might
reckon fishermen and others of our maritime population in-
cluded in their registration, and not included in ours at 150,000
more—a good deal had been said about the supposed diminution
in seamen arising from various causes to which he would not
now advert. With regard to this subject, he would refer to re-
turns, perhaps not strictly accurate, but sufficiently exact for
this purpose. A comparative statement was made out each
year of the number of seamen, and he had consulted with the
Registrar-general of the Custom-house on this subject, who
thinks that the comparative statements may be safely relied on,
According to these statements, it appears that in 1833, the
number was ' one hundred and sixty-four thousand
In 1.34 168,000: in 18.35, 171,000 ; in 1836, 171,600, and in
1837 173,580, being an increase upon the whole of those five
years of no less than 9,500. In 1836 returns were received of
vessels lost to the amount of 1,800, and in order, therefore,
to afford a fair comparison, that, number ought to be struck off
from the year before, which would give an increase of upwards
of 1,100 men in , those five years that went up to March 1837 ;
with respect to 1838, he had not the returns. That, he con-
sidered, would afford a most satisfactory answer to the state-
ments that had gone abroad relative to the seamen of this
country having been diminished. With regard to the effect of
steam-vessels :—ln 1835, 25.000 men were employed on them,
while in 1837 upwards of 26,652 men were employed, being an
increase of 1,652. In 1835, the number of steam-vessels were
414, while in 1836 they amounted to 685. Perhaps Honourable
Members would wish to know the extent of power of those
steam-vessels. There were sixty-five of 200-horse power.
and upwards •, and 136 of 100-horse power and up-
wards ; 160 from fifty to one hundred horse power, and
318 of 50-horse power: Probably With reseect to the vessels
of larger power the return had been understated. With these
resources—these enormous resources—in the mercantile marine,
which had hitherto been the main strength on which this
country had depended, and in which no nation of the earth
could compete with this country—with these enormous re-
sources, he saw no reason for stating that they were not better
prepared than at any former time. In former armaments no
difficulty was found in rapidly increasme the forces. In 1777
the forces of this country were doubled in two months, and
after hostilities had commenced, the naval force was increased
in a very short time to six times its amount. With respect to
the power of immediately withdrawing men from the navy, a
great complaint had been made against the present Ministry
for putting down the Coast Blockade. In 1831 the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite, in pursuance of a Report of a Committee,
had put down the Coast Blockade, and he had been blamed
for that as diminishing one source of the navy. He (Mr. W. )
thought that that source was very much indeed overrated. He
did not think that the object for which that service had been
instituted had been effected, namely, giving rewards to the best
seamen. He thought that some system between the two might
be devised which would render it more available than at present
without taking from it the character that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite had given it. He believed that a Commission
would have been appointed to inquire into the system of the
Coast Guard, and would have sat long ere this had it not been for
the illness of the Assistant-Secretary of the Admiralty. He
considered that the statements that had been made with respect
to the Coast blockade were totally without f iundation ; for
whatever resources had been taken away from the Coast
Blockade, were more than replaced by putting the ordinary in
commission, and men were raised for general services by that
means. In January last there was no less than one thou-
sand four hundred and forty-nine men and boys available for
sevice, and they had actually drafted in the course of 1838 no
less than 589, which was rather more than was ever taken to
the Cast Blockade. With regard to the men, it was unneces-
sary for him to say anything, but with reference to the boys it
might be satisfactory to the House that lie should read an ex-
tract from a letter which he had received. That letter stated
" That about eighty of our second-class boys were discharged
to-day, and were sent to the flag-ship. Some of the second
class boys were as expert as seamen at guns, and some of our
first-class boys exceed the men. So much with respect to
their active force. He believed he had now touched upon every
subject on which observations had been made, and he could not
hesitate to say that, looking at the total force employed at home
anti abroad, there really was no cause to believe that at any
period of the history of this country they were in a better state
than at the present moment.—( Hear, hear.) He now came to
the working of the Dock-yards. It Was true that they had
been diminished since the peace. They had been corning down
ever since to the peace establishment, but they had not yet
reached the minimum at which the decrease was to stop ; yet
the present Government, looking at the state of several of the
ships, had commenced an increase. The maintenance of the
ship;depended upon the works in the dock, and (seders were
given for the reduction of the Dock-yards during the Ministry
of the Duke of Wellington in 1830. It was true that that order
was not carried into effect until it was enforced by the Right
Honourable Baronet opposite in 1831. There was one thing
that he extremely regretted, which was that the Right
Honourable Baronet did not carry out the intentions of the
Admiralty in 1830, namely, that of giving increased labour to
the men when the number was reduced to 6,000. It was true
that the Right Hon. Bart. did not remain long enough in office
to witness the effect of his measu. es. It was difficult to ascertain
what the reductions really were in the Dockyards, but in the
seven years ending in the year 1836, the consumption of time
ber per year wa. 21,300 loads, while the annual average ex-
penditure of timber from 1830 to 1836 was 9,600 loads, show-
ing the diminution of more than half in the amount of timber
consumed, indicating therefore a very great falling off in the works.
The votes for wages (as we believe), were in 1829, 48,000/. ;
in 1833, 390,000/. ; in 1834, 300,000/. ; in 1835, 384,000/,
In 1835, the number of men employed was 6,265 ; in October
last, the number was 7,644. Of the smaller vessels, there were
in 1835, 85 in commission ; now there were 107. Of steam
vessels, there were in 1835, 24, independently of packets on
the home stations ; now there were 36. This was a subject of
considerable importance.—(Hear, hear.) In 1835, there was
one steam vessel of 140 horse power. In 1836, one was
lauched. In 1837, one of three hundred horse was launched,
one of 140 horse power, and two smaller ones. In 1838,
there was a war steamer launched of 224-horse power, two of
240-horse power, and another of 160, with two of 300-horse
power, one of 280, and preparations were making for launchine
set others.—(Hear, hear.) Now as to stores—great attacks
had been made upon the Government. But similar attacks
had been made on the Government of the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite, by which Government the lowest vote ever
taken for naval stores was reduced by no less than 82,000/.
Under the old system of " appropriating" stores, that is, lay-
ing them by for particular ships, and reserving them for such
ships, stores were found rotting, for the ships to which they
had been " appropriated" had been broken up years before.—.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) had done good
service to his country in reforming this system : but he did
not go far enough, and much remained to be done when the
present Government came in. With respect to masts, in 1835
161 lower masts were found to be useless—nearly one half of the
whole. Of the smaller masts, topmasts, and spars, which were
at that period very deficient, there were now sufficient in stet e
for twenty line of battle ships.—(Laughter.) So in regard to
cordage—the quantity of yarn manufactured in the rope yards
had doubied every year since 1835. In short, there were full
stores, of every description, for thirty sail of the line, ready in
the dock-yards.—( Hear, hear.) There were also stores nearly
ready for five or six vessels ; and all this was exclusive
of ships in commission, so that altogether there were stores
ready for between fifty and sixty sail of the line.—(Hear, hear,
and lauehter, occasioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
taking a careful note of the fact.) Now a Noble Lord
(we understood the Hon. Gentleman to refer to Earl
Hardwicke) had lately made certain statements in another place,
having previously taken the trouble to go down to the Dock-
yards. He (Mr. Wood) would confidently say that the state-
ments of that Noble Lord had been entirely contradicted, not
merely by the returns but by the reports of different Siseerin-