The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 4, 1863

be laid upon the table as soon as the result of the last nego-
tiations had been received.
RECOGNITION OF THE SOUTHERN S" ATES.
In reply to Mr. ROEBUCK,
Sir G. GREY said his noble friend (Lord almerston)
would be in the House on Monday in all pro' ability, and
then the time for taking the adjourned deb Lte on the hon.
gentleman's motion could be arranged.
THE SUPPLY OF COTTON.
Mr. CAIRD then rose to call attention to the supply of
cotton, and to move for a select committee to inquire
whether any further measures could be taken, within the
legitimate functions of the Indian Government, for increas-
ing the supply of cotton from that country. The hon.
gentleman expressed his belief that the abolition of slave
labour would increase the price of cotton, though cotton
would still be the cheapest article for clothing for probably
a very long period. America had hitherto supplied about
four-fifths of our demand, and India nearly the other fifth,
and for 30 years past India has kept her ground in supply-
ing cotton against cheap labour and competition, Brazil
had decreased, but the supply from Italy had considerably
increased, It was very remarkable, as an indication of in-
creased production in fresh channels, whereas in 1861,
the total import, including that from America,
amounted to 9,267,000 cwt., the quantity this year, when
America had sent almost nothing, was 6,622,000 cwt. In
Egypt the price of an acre of cotton was lately £s—it was
now £2O. In three months of 1861, the supply from that
country was 218,000 cwt., and in three months this year it
was 2,295,000 cwts. This year it was expected that 260,000
bales would be shipped from Egypt. From Smyrna we had
had 50,000 bales last year, from which place we had previ-
ously had none. In Italy, great exertion had been used, and
last year the produce in cotton had,in some instances,actually
exceeded the original value of the fee-simple of the land it was
grown upon. The cotton-growing was under the superin-
tendence of Signor Vincenzi, who had charge of the Italian
department in the Exhibition of last year, and he believed
great progress would shortly be made. The quality of the
cotton was very good, and there was an easy command of
labour and land admirably suited for its cultivation.
The Italian farmer was able successfully to grow beans,
barley, and cotton in the same year. Spain was pursuing
the same course, and in Malta every suitable acre of land
was being laid out in cotton. From those sources half a
million of bales of cotton might be at the least expected ;
and, if the prices continued remunerative, they might rea-
sonably expect its cultivation to increase to one million bales
hereafter. They must, however, still look to America and
India for the remaining supply required for this and other
countries. The American supply depended, of course,
upon the result of the war, for the Southern States possessed
greater advantages for the growth of cotton than any other
portion of the globe. It was, however, delusive to imagine
that negro cultivation was more costly than. free labour. In
consequence of slavery, no country was able to grow good
cotton so cheaply as the Southern States. It was by that
system self-supporting, and a well-managed slave cotton
estate was all profit. There were also great facilities of ex-
port. India, however, did not stand in so favourable a po-
sition for the growth of cotton as America in either of those
respects, neither did India possess the extension of new
and uncultivated land required, because no crop so soon
and so much exhausts the land as cotton. If the Southern
States should be victorious in the contest, they might expect
cotton to be soon plentiful again, with no additional cost
than would repay the war expenses. If, on the contrary,
the Southern States should be shut up to the eastward of
the Mississippi, the power of western extension so necessary
in slavery would be diminished, and they must expect a
largely increased population. But if the South be subdued,
and a gradual emancipation of the slaves follow, then there
would be for some years an increased cost of production of
American cotton. In Louisiana and Tennessee free labour
had been tried by giving wages to the blacks, and it was but
right to say that so far it had worked extremely well, the
despatches of Federal governors speaking of it in high terms.
In many of the free States successful attempts had been
made to grow cotton, and in Illinois cotton had been pro-
duced equal to middling New Orleans. If Vicksburg should
fall half a million of bales would find their way to the North,
and already 200,000 bales were on their way to the Northern
States. The war, he thought, must shortly terminate, and
the cotton cultivation be resumed with a moderate increase
of price, in which case they might look to America for one
half of our former average supply, to which must be added
the million bales from other sources beside India, so that
he thought there was no occasion for alarm about the ex-
tinction of the cotton industry of this country. Every
month was producing fresh supplies, though the Secretary
of State for India had discouraged the efforts made for the
supply of Indian cotton. Looking through the Blue Book
of 500 pages, he failed to find a single intelligent suggestion
with reference to the increased cultivation of cotton in
India on the part of the right hon. gentleman (Sir C.Wood).
Why had he not sent out instructions to Lord Canning's
Government respecting the land tenure and the law of con-
tracts, instead of discrediting the course taken by Lord
Canning when all was over ? However, in spite of the discou-
ragement and the lukewarmness of the Home Government,
there were sufficient grounds for believing that a great
deal might be done for improving the quality and increas-
ing the quantity of cotton grown in India. Mr. Saunders,
the special commissioner appointed by the Indian Govern-
ment to report as to the north-western provinces, showed
clearly that by superior cultivation the quality and the
quantity of the cotton could be improved. It appeared by
the Blue Book that the average yield of cotton in India was
631 b. to the acre, and upon that calculation it would take
between six and seven acres of land to produce a bale of cot-
tan. If that was the case, they must give up all idea of
obtaining increased supplies of cotton from India, for no
cheapness of labour could compensate for the smallness of
the yield per acre. India exported last year upwards of
1,000,000 bales of cotton; and at that rate between 6,000,000
and 7,000,000 acres of land must have been occupied in the
production. In Egypt, America, and Algeria, 1,000,000
acres might have sufficed to produce the same quantity.
However, he believed the statement as to the yield per acre
in India was a fallacy on the part of the Indian officials. In
America the produce varied from 1001bs. to 2,0001b5. per
acre; and in Italy and Algeria 631bs. per acre would not
pay for the expense of picking. According to the Secretary
of State the natives of India had nothing to learn in the art
of agriculture. Well, if that was so, they were very much
in advance of every other people. Mechanically and chemi-
cally, the cotton soil of India was precisely the same as that
of America ; the only difference was that the soil of America
was fresher, and consequently the yield was much larger.
The hon. member then referred seriatim to the several dis-
tricts of India which were adapted to the production of cot-
ton, stating that in the Doab alone there were 12,000,000
acres suited for the purpose, with a population more dense
thanthat of China. He also referred to the establishment of
railways throughout the whole of the cotton districts as an-
other strong element in the calculation, and concluded Ly
aotiro;lirgly condemning the Secretary of State for the recall
. Laing-.an error so grave as to lower the authority
of the right hen, gentleman upon all questions connected
with India. He begged to move for a select committee, in
accordance with the terms of his motion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BA ZLEY, although believing that the hon. member
took too sanguine a view of the question, considered that the
Government would be very much to blame if the supplies of
cotton from India were not very much augmented. No
Consumption
of the disturbances
cotton
n t
h i
doubt, at the present moment the prospects of the manufac-
turing districts ware moat
gloms.
in America, the average s
country was 50,000 bales per week, and of that quantity
42,000 bales, or 86 per cent. of !the whole, came from Ame-
riEgypt and other countries supplied 8 per cent., and
the
per cent. It was true that !the supplies
from
India Indiesiahad 7
of late increased—but then the stocks were
Ame-
rica. .
East
was
in for believing that the quantity
exhausted, and the hand spinners of India were left desti-
tute, that country was not greater than it
years ago. Both Earl Russell and the
owwas three
t ha cottonnr
ede
ptohrroe
four years
Under Secretary of Foreign Affairs were entitled to the
highest encomiums for their promptitude in addressing
Foreign Governments on the :subject of cotton supplies—
but he should like to know whether the Indian Govemmen
had done anything to stimulate the productions of India. I t
was gratifying to find that there was a prospect of increased
supply of cotton in various quarters, thanks to the exertions
of Earl Russell. Turkey, Italy, and Spain were beginning
spin and
some very toobtaigronwingeotton. Even from Morocco there was a prospect of
dearth.c
ash '; eto ts
growuwas labsurd
cottonwhile t as Chinawell
at the
at
do
beauti-
ful and excellent cotton to aid in relieving the present
o
pos-
sessions, he believed ample manufacturers of Lan-
Ii
hon. gentleman contrastpadtheitnoducemennbd
proper facilities were weave it.
am afforded
le supplies to people
wouldpl e rn ourPoThse-
as compared with our America
. prcoolneiald.
t which had been
held out to persons to emigrate ygrants of land
to the efforts that were being Australian colonies.
made by the French Govern-
ment to establish cotton cultivation h in Algiers, and said e
wished to see the same activity He referred
Govern-
ment. Denying the statement
had not exerted itself much in this that the Lancashire trade
aehwo
Association,
our own Govern-
e question,
rsntam ten thteh re enf eercreesds
necessity
the efforts of the Cotton Supply s
years had been enforcing on th
of diminishing its dependence on the which for 30
Alemoebritcaainfeodr
was chiefly to our
the supply of cotton. Though cotton rergheft
Africa, it
wew
bAousthtrianliatnheamWdelsnt
dlinadniepsogasnesdsiAfouris
have to
lock for large supplies. Ile deprecated the unwillingnessshould
the Indian Government to take up thisquestion,aridsaindf
that if they had done so at the period when the e
for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) had agitated the n'
member
question
cotton supply, 14 years since, Lancashire wouldhavteonf
spared the overwhelming crisis which had now supervened
Great responsibility rested on the Indian department of the
Government, which did not lack information, and only re-
quired energetic action. In this view he believed that great
good would result from placing gentlemen of agricultural
knowledge upon the Indian Council. He believed that the
difficulty of producing cotton in India arose from circum-
stances which would be told in a few words from a commu-
nication which he had received from Calcutta only a week
since, the writer of which stated, "I am convinced that
India could compete with America in growing cotton, but
no great undertaking can be carried on without Govern-
ment support. The Government itself is well disposed to
develop the resources of the country, but cannot control its
subordinates, by whom European settlers are still regarded
as interlopers." (Hear, hear.) With proper attention on the
part of the Government we need not look to America at all

for the future, as we had abundant means of obtaining m ore
than we needed from our own possessions.
Mr. SMOLLETT doubted if a motion like this, un-
accompanied by any practical suggestion, was likely
to be productive of a useful result. In his opinion the best

anti most effectual course would be to apply to all lands in
India sui.able for the culture of cotton the principle which

had been adopted in Bengal under what was known as the

Cornwallis settlement.

Mr, COBDEN said he wished to address a few words to
the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for India, in the
hope of inducing him to go back to the practice of former
times, but which in this and another case had been departed
from. Now, on the last occasion in which the question of
India had been brought forward by the hon. member for

Poole, the right hon. gentleman abstained fi om speaking

until eo late an hour that no discussion could take place.

Again, on the China debate, the Undcr• Secretary for Fo-
reign Affairs declined to speak at all, so that there was no

debate, Now, the good old practice was, that when the po-

licy of the Government was arraigned in a well-considered
statement, in a speech moved and seconded, it was the duty
of the Minister representing the department arraigned to
vindicate his policy, and make a statement to the house,

The business of members in that house was to criticise, and

if necessary correct what they believed to be erroneous in
the policy of the Government. But if the right hon. gentle-
man sat in hie place listening to tho complaints of the hon.
member for Dumbartonshire and others, hon. members
would have no opportunity of making any comments upon
his statement. In his opinion, that was the best practice

- -
which prevailed up to the last few months ; besides, it was
more respectful to the house, and more consistent with the
despatch of business. They would have another Indian
debate, because the right hon. gentleman had not spoken
earlier, and there would be a debate on China next
Monday, because the Under•Seeretary for Foreign Affairs
_ _ _

- -
had not spoken on a former occasion. It would seem as
if they were coming under the influence of M. VO2l
Bismark, and that they only came there to receive the
orders of the Government. The honourable gentleman

who spoke last had found fault with certain members for
adopting a different language in that house from what they
employed elsewhere. But he did not know anybody who
was more open to the same imputation than the hon.mem-
b3r himself. He remembered the hon. member had attended

a meeting in Manchester at which Mr. Cheetham presided,
and upon that occasion the hon. member did not spare the
Secretary of State for India nor the Indian Government.

Much had been talked and written about the happy state
of India under the British rule, but the ryots in that coun-

try suffered many hardships from the oppression of the
native sub-collectors, who levied annual assessments (sel-

dom the same in amount two years running) in the name a

the British Government, who had become the most gigantic

absentee landlords in the world. Unless some encourage.

ment were given it was idle to expect that people would
speculate in cotton-growing in India when in the Western
valley of the Mississippi some of the most fertile land in the
world could be had by the asking for 3d per acre, and 160
acres for £2, merely the cost of the survey. The hon.gen-
tleman then quoted from a despatch of Sir C. Wood, of June
9, 1862, in which he refused to sanction the reduction of the
assessment in favour of persons who intended to try the ex-
periment of cotton-growing. That was a piece of cold-
blooded indifference to the interests of his country that, had
there been an opposition in the house, would certainly have
led to his impeachment. He had also issued a most absurd
regulation, that where a person wanted to buy land he was to
deposit the costs of survey, and after the survey the land was
to be put up to auction. Fancy a man paying the Govern-
ment down the expenses of a survey merely for the privilege
of bidding at an auction. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman also

quoted Mr. Crawford, author of the " Indian Archpe-
lago," to show the improvements that had taken place in
Ceylon, and what great changes would take place in India
by the adoption of a similar system. He did not
come there in form pauperts, but he came to demand of
the Government, as their duty, that they should use
every endeavour to avert the consequences of the present

calamitous war in America.
Mr. PENDER wished to inform the house that there was
great misapprehension in England as to the reported large
amount of cotton now existing in India only waiting to be
sent for. It was not the case. The production of cotton goods
in 1860 and 1861 was great. In the latter year it amounted
to 80 million sterling, of which 40 millions were for export,
but it was not more than the demand of 1858 and 1859 war-

ranted the trade in believing would be required for our home
and colonial trade, including India and China. In 1858, the
exports were equal to four yards per head. In 1859, it was
five yards. In 1860 and 1861, it was four yards. And in
1862, it declined to 2t yards per head, showing conclusively
that the stocks on hand were not occasioned by an over
supply, but from a diminished demand owing to the high
price asked by the importers. He looked forward to a bene-
ficial change, and expressed his belief that the demand for
cotton at remunerative prices would create an adequate sup-
ply. (Hear, hear, and cries of" Sir C. Wood.")
Sir C. WOOD complained of the manner in which he had
been treated by the hon. member for Rochdale, and of his
being called upon to speak so early in the debate, which
would prevent his answering any statements, however erre-
nooue, that might be put forward by those hon. members
who might follow him. He admitted the importance of the
subject, and he repeated what he had said on many former
occasions, that we must look to India for our great supply
of cotton. The hon. member for Stirling was in error rela-
tive to the importations of cotton from Egypt. During the
first three months 233,000 cwts. only were imported.
Mr. CAIRD said the Board of Trade returns gave
2,209,000 cwts.
Sir C. WOOD said the quantity was 233,000 cwts., and in
the first five months it was only 381,000 cwts. He denied
that he had always discouraged the growth of cotton in
India. His impression had been, and was still, that we
must look to India for the bulk of our supply, but he had
been afraid of stating too largely his expectation from that
quarter. The supply could not come all at once, but must
be gradual, because it was impossible to divert the cultiva-
tion of a large quantity of land all at once. He still believed
the supply would come, because the stimulus of remunera-
tive prices was given to its growth in India. That was the
only thing necessary to produce it, and was the principle
which the Manchester school had always advocated, and
which he had invariably supported. They had always
urged that all trades should be left to themselves, and they
would take care of themselves, and that was the principle
which her Majesty's Government was now applying to
India, believing it was as sound for that country as for any
other part of the world. (Hear, hear.) The result of all their
inquiries had been in that direction, and the ryots had said
they wanted no other protection than high prices. It was
said the circumstances of India were exceptional, that the
landlords were despotic, and, therefore, that the Government
were bound to teach the natives how to grow cotton. But it
was quite a mistake to suppose the natives did not know how
to grow cotton ; they know how to do so perfectly well. Talk
of the miserable condition of the ryots I why the hon. mem-
ber opposite (Mr. Smollett), who surely might be considered
to know something of India, asserted that the ryots were in
no such condition. Some time ago a series of most able letters
were published by a Mr. Smith, a stockbroker at Liverpool,
who made the tour of the cotton districts of India, and what
was his account of the state of the ryots, especially of the
ryots in the Bombay presidency ? Ho said their state was
excellent, so far as the occupation of land was concerned.
The Government was called upon to do something for the
production of cotton in India, but not a single suggestion
had proceeded either from the hon. hember who had made
the motion, or from any other quarter, as to what that
something ought to be. Never before had he heard a com-
mittee moved for without the motion being based upon
BOMB practical suggestion. He fully admitted that there
was one duty incumbent upon the Government, that
of improving the means of communication in India--(hear)
—but he had done his utmost to promote that object. It
was ridiculous to talk of making experiments with respect
to the growth of cotton in India. Cotton was a natural pro-
duct of India, and the cotton of America was actually de-
rived from India. For years cotton had been grown in
India, not only for home consumption but for exportation
to China and elsewhere, and nevertheless gentlemen talked
as if the experiment was now being tried for the first time.
Not many years back the Company tried the experiment of
growing American cotton in India, and it was established
beyond dispute that it could be successfully grown there.
But if they were to look to India for large supplies of cotton
they might depend upon it such expectations could only be
fulfilled by the cultivation of cotton upon land subjectto the
ordinary rent. He was hardly in office when he was waited
upon by a deputation, who made two recommendations—
one was to alter the mode of levying the duties upon cotton
in India, and the other had reference to the necessity for
improved communication throughout the country. As re-
garded the first, instructions were at once sent out to Mr.
Wilson, and matters were placed upon a satisfactory foot-
ing ; and in respect of the second, ho admitted then, as he
admitted now, that it was the duty of the Government to
improve the communications as speedily as possible. But
at the same time he warned the deputation that there was
an ample supply of cotton close to the seaboard, and that
great improvements were required in the method of pack-
ing and cleaning Indian cotton, which must be left to the
p
tiooll of private enterprise, and which the Govern-
mentuld not undertake. He promised to have the
ocomerma c
communications with the interior open by the time these
improvements were initiated. Hon. members ridiculed
the notion that the natives had not much to learn as re-
garded the cultivation of their land; but there was
abundant evidence that the ryots cultivated the land fairly,
and in a manner adapted to the capabilities of the soil.
It was nonsense to say they did not know how to
of India sent'
cul-
tivate the land ; at all events they knew how to do it quite
as well as the small holders in Ireland. As for the com-
plaint that they had done nothing to make the people of
India acquainted with the demand which had sprung up in
this countrywhich for cotton, why, in February, 1861, the Go-
vernmentproduction. of cotton
people of the demand there and to distrilaute seed. The
heavy charges
ag . was,
three grounds,simply upon these
thatm net himself rested
round commissioners to inform the
he considered the offer of prizes for the
of making experimentsuseless; that he did not see the neces-
sityton in India,
to buy up cotton froP
gentlemen that,hsoo anxious that he declared it was respecting the growth of cot-
ton
established 20 years ago ; and
art of the business of Govern-
mentthe natives. The right hon.
aas
tohe e tgotyo give
as every
infoa fact
lity in the mater,

agents going out to India to purchase cotton by recom-
mending them to the local officers in the best localities for
their operations. He had however received no applications
to afford such assistance. The agents of the European
spinners had followed the American planter to his home,
and by offering an increased price for improved cotton, had
vastly increased the supply. The same course of proceeding
would produce the same result in India, and if that was
not done the Government, who had offered every facility,
ought not to be blamed. Another suggestion which had
also been alluded to was that the land tax or rent should be
remitted on land which produced cotton. That, however,
was a perfectly mistaken notion, and the scheme was, in
the opinion of those best acquainted with the matter, ut-
terly impracticable. The high price of cotton in India had
caused great distress in many parts of that country, by
throwing the spinners and weavers out of employment.
Under those circumstances what would have been thought
by the natives if they had seen their Government imposing
taxes on them to increase the export of an article the
dearth of which was causing so much suffering. Yet
such was the course which had been recommended to the
Government. There would be no difficulty in obtaining
cotton in India if people would only'go there to purchase it,
That was the only stimulus which was needed. Direct
Government interference only did harm—the less they
meddled the better. (Hear, hear.) Under the incentive of
the increased demand cotton was coming forward from all
parts of 'mina at a rate of increase that was very remark-
able. He believed that with the prices much lower than at
present they might reckon on an inceased production of 25
per cent. per annum, so that in about six years as much
will be obtained from India as was before obtained from
America. The people were fully alive to the advantages of
cotton cultivation, and would be further stimulated by the
exercise of every legitimate function of the Government.
Mr. R. W. CRAWFORD supported the views which
had just been expressed by the right hon. gentleman. Per-
sonal residence in India had convinced him that the ques-
tion of waste lands had eery little to do with cotton culti-
vation in India. He did not think the Government or the
Secretary of State for India open to the charges which had
been made against them. They had done all they fairly
could to stimulate the growth of cotton in India. They had
opened up communication through the country generally,
they had withdrawn the export duties, and had listened to
every reasonable proposition which had been made to them
on the subject. He did not know what else they could have
done, and he should therefore continue his confidence in the
India administration of his right hon. friend (Sir C. Wood)
which he had always felt.
Mr. BRIGHT repeated his conviction that the whole
question lay in the tenure of land. Every witness examined
before the committee of 1848 gave the same testimony on the
point, and all agreed that unless the cultivator of the soil
had a tenure which would give him full security it was im-
possible to expect that rapid and continuous improvement
which under other circumstances might be countedupon. He
did not complain of the construction ofrailroads throughout
the country, but he did complain that the Secretary of State
seemed to think that they were all that was necessary for
its improvement. What was wanted in India was a revo-
lution of ideas and practice in the Government, and he be-
lieved that that would bring with it a revolution in the life
of the people, and greater activity their part. He knew
that that could not be done in a year, but he had pressed it
in vain on the attention of Government 15 years ago, and
now, when the crisis hat come, every one sought to throw
the blame on other shoulders. He believed that instead of
one central Government at Calcutta it would be better if
each presidency were ruled by an independent executive,
and had attached to it a board of works to carry out public
undertakings on its account, or through the instrumentality
of Indian or English capitalists. The hon. gentleman then
alluded (in "mild terms," as he said, compared with the
language of the partits themselves) to the discourteous
treatment which the lancashire merchants and millowners
had uniformly experienced when attending with deputations
at the India-office. It might be 'simply an unfortunate pe-
culiarity in the manner of the right hon. baronet, but it had
been felt so strongly by several largo manufacturers and
spinners of his own acquaintance, that they had declared
nothing should againinduce them again to wait upon the
Secretary for India.
Mr. T. G. BARING defended the right hon. baronet, and
said that in one case where there had been a report of some
supposed want of courtesy on the part of the Secretary for
India, he had taken the trouble to make inquiries, and found
the report totally without foundation. The scheme of rail.
ways carried out in India was that which was recommended
by a committee of that house in 1848, of which the hon.
member for Birmingham was chairman, and in accordance
with his draft report; and the administration of justice in
India had greatly improved of late years. The Council of
India had been moat anxious to do everything in their
power consistent with their duty to encourage increased
exports of cotton, and be felt satisfied from the discussion
that had taken place that the house would approve of what
had been done by the Secretary of State for India.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said the returns given for five months
did not fairly represent the exports of cotton from India, as
the return for the year gave a different result. The hon.
member defended himself from the misrepresentation of Sir
C.Wood in his recent speech at Halifax, and said the ques-
tion of Indian cotton did not rest on price but quality. In-
dian cotton had always been inferior to American cotton.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR supported the motion, for he con-
sidered it moat proper to inquire how far the Secretary. of
State had thrown impediments in the way of the introduc-
tion of British capital and enterprise into India. If the
committee were appointed the result must be a complete
change in the policy of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. FERRAND adverted to the wonderful change which
had come upon the Manchester gentlemen, in urging the
Government to grow cotton by protection in India. Ho ad-
vised them to trust to supply and demand in future, and
not come down there whining for protection. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CAIRD withdrew the motion.
THE CASE OF COLONEL CRAWLEY.

Mr. BUTT asked the Attorney-General or the Secretary
for War to state whether, on the return of Col. Crawley to
this country, it was intended to prefer the charges against
him before a court-martial, or before the Court of Queen's
Bench, or some other of the common law tribunals. The
hon. and learned member suggested that the charge against
him amounted to one of manslaughter, of which no court-
martial could take cognisance.
Col. DUNNE appealed to the house if it were fair thus
to hunt a man to conviction before he had been put on his
trial? (Hear, bear.) Military men knew that Col. Crawley
was not responsible for the confinement of Sergeat Lilley,
and it was most unjust to couple his name with the word
murder. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of HARTINGT ON said that the question
had been fully considered by the Horse Guards and the
War-office, and that, as it appeared to them that the
charge against Colonel Crawley was of a military nature.
the proper tribunal before which he should be tried was a
court-martial. (Hear.) As to the case of Capt. Smales,
the subject had been laid before the Judge Advocate-Ge-
neral, but as the communications which passed between
him and the War •otfice were of a private nature it was not
for the public interest that they should be produced.
Mr. CONINGHAM denied that he had condemned Col.
Crawley, or made any charge against him. On the con-
tracy, he was one of the first to protest against Col. Crawley
being made the scapegoat when others of high rank were
deeply compromised. The hon. gentleman was then pro-
ceeding to refer to the case of Capt. Smales, when
Mr. OSBORNE rose to order.
Mr. CONINGHAM advised the hon. member to keep to
the Irish Church, and to be more careful in his facts.
(Laughter.)
Mr. OSBORNE—Sir, ;I again rise to order. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) The hon. gentleman has no right to
mix up the Irish Church with Capt. Smales.
Mr. CONINGHAM—I do not know whether the hon,
gentleman is sober. (Laughter, cries of " Oh, oh," and
" Chair.")
Mr, OSBORNE—I do not know whether the hon. gen-
tleman is sane. (Loud cries of " Chair" and " Order.")
Mr. CONINGHAM wished to say nothing unparlia-
mentary, but the hon. lumber had no right to come down
to the house and interrupt independent members. He re-
membered when the hen, gentleman (Mr. Osborne) was
silent enough when an humble occupant of the Treasury
bench—(laughter)—and he hoped the noble lord at the
head of the Government would take compassion on " your
petitioner"---(Order, order")—and gave him a place in
some outlying skirts of the Administration, where he would
be again reduced to silence. (" Oh, oh," loud cries of
" Chair," and laughter,)
Sir G. GREY here interposed, and hoped for the credit
of the house such observations would not be continued.
(Hear, hear.) He was sure the hon. gentleman would
regret having made use of such language, and it was not
to the credit of the house that it should have been indulged
in. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Major GA VIN, in defence of the
Indian army,
The subject was allowed to drop.
THE CAM OF MR. FRITH.

Mr. WHITE moved an address praying that the inquiry
into the claims of Mr. Warren Hastings Leslie Frith against
the late Governor of Oude take place in England instead
of in India, on the gretind that all the evidence was in this
country.
Sr. lei. FARQUHAR, seconded the motion.
Mr. TORRENS supported the motion.
Mr. C. WOOD regretted that he could not accede to the
motion, because, as he believed, the really important evi-
dence was in India.
The motion was then negatived.
MILITIA BALLOTS SUSPENSION BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
THAMES EMBANKMENT (NORTH SIDE) BILL.
The Lords' amendment to this bill were agreed to.
LONDON COAL AND WINE DUTIES CONTINU •
ANCE BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this bill were agreed to.
The house having gone into committee on this bill,
Mr. CRUM-E WING immediately moved that the ohair-
man report progress.
The committee divided—
Ayes
Noes . . 19
Majority
The house accordingly resumed.
The Prisons (Ireland) Bill passed through committee.
INDIA STOCK.

On the motion of SirC,WOOD, leave was given, to in.

troduce a bill giving further facilities to the holders of
India stock; and the bill was subsequently read a first time.
The house adjourned at five-and -twenty minutes past
one.

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS.

TIMES.—Mr. W. S. Lindsty writes to us on the

misunderstanding between Mr. Roebuck and the
British Government respecting the communications
alleged to have been made to that gentleman by the
French Emperor. As we are not a party to this
dispute about facts, and know nothing of the case
but what has been stated publicly by Mr. Roebuck

on the one side and Mr. Lay and -on the other, we
need not enter into any discussion. Mr. Lindsay

declares that what Mr. Roebuck has stated " is true,

and shall be confirmed by me in Parliament, with
time, place, and circumstance, when the debate is
resumed." Very well ; if this can be done, so much
the better for Mr. Roebuck's credit ; though it will

certainly be extraordinary that Lord -Russell,
and Lord Cowley, and Baron Gros, and Lord Lyons
. _

should all of them have lost their conscience or

:heir memory, not to mention that the Itioniteur

should give an apparent contradiction to Mr. Roe-
buck by having published the despatch of M. Dronyn

de Llauys before the British Government had even
answered it. We shall be interested in the expla,
_ _

nation which Mr. Lindsay will give of these things
when the debate is resumed, and should he vindi-

eate his friend and crush the Government we shall

be willing to apologize for having believed the con-
current and positive testimony of half•a-dozen offi-
cial persons rather than the reminiscences of Mr.
Roebuck. We must say, ho sever, that in such a
case as this mere reassertion is not proof, It Mr.
Lindsay can do no more than rise in his place and
say, " What Mr. Roebuck told yon is true," he will
not in any way justify the deliberate charges which
were brought against the Government on Tuesday
night. The most that such a course can effect is
to raise a suspicion in the minds of people that
the Emperor may have been guilty of indiscre-
tion as much as, or even more, than Mr. Roebuck;
that his Majesty had talked loosely, have forgotten
all the details of the transaction of last November,

and having wrongly fancied that he had com-
missioned Baron Gros to make some verbal eom-

munication, ox to hint something, or in some way
to sound the English Government on the subject of
the American war. But even under this unlikely

supposition the language of Mr. Roebuck would
not be justifiable, and merely to " confirm" the fact
that something had been told him by the Emperor
would in no way exonerate him from having pro-
pagated an erroneous report. When an accusation
of this kind is made with such ostentatious solem-
nity, the accuser is bound to have some proofs in
his possession, and not to rely on a mere conversa-
tion, in which either speaker or listener may have
been careless or inaccurate. Mr. Lindsay replies to
our remarks on the injudicious practice of approach-
ing foreign Sovereigns with the intention of gather-
ing their opinions and using them afterwards in
domestic discussions, by stating that when he had
his first interview with the French Emperor he was
accompanied by her Majesty's Ambassador at Paris.
But in the next sentence he destroys the force of
this announcement by saying that this interview
" was proposed on matters referring exclusively to
English and French maritime interests," and that
subsequent interviews took place on the same sub-
ject. The fact that a shipowner, who may be pre-
sumed to have a special knowledge of maritime
subjects, should be introduced by his Ambassador
to a Sovereign who was meditating great financial
changes is certainly nothing extraordinary, and
such interviews can in no way be classed with the
amateur diplomacy which we have blamed. But
Mr. Lindsay does not think fit to state what con-
nexion his interview of the 23d of June, 1863, for

the purpose of learning the Emperor's opinion on
the recognition of the Confederates, and using it in
the House of Commons, has with his interview of
January, 1861, on the shipping trade, to which he
was introduced by Lord Cowley. How the inno-
cence and usefulness of the one can be communi-
cated to the other it is difficult to see. In the first
he was merely communicating commercial or econo-
mical facts; in the second he was strictly a "self-
constituted Ambassador," ready to take the conduct
of affairs out of official hands, and, as it now plainly
appears, eager to bring or " confirm" the gravest
charges against his own Government. Mr. Lindsay
says that this interview " was brought about by
circumstances which in due time shall be folly made
known to the country." Probably the disclosure
will be of little importance, but anything will be
to the credit of the two volunteer diplomatists which
tends to show that they did not force themselves
on a foreign Sovereign with the desire of repeating
hls chance expressions to the detriment of English
statesmen.
The following is the letter referred to above :

Sir,—Pardon me for saying it would have been as well
to have reserved your comments on the statements made by
Mr. Roebuck in the House]of Commons on Tuesday night
until the debate was ended.
The debate is yet pending, and those comments can only
prejudge. In the meantime I think it due to Mr. Roebuck
to say that what he has stated is true, and shall be con-
firmed by me in Parliament with time, place, and circum-
stances when the debate is resumed. I have to regret that
it is postponed for a time even so long as the 13th inst.
You have been pleased to speak of us as self-constituted
Ambassadors. I have only to reply that at my first inter-
view with the Emperor, in January, 1861, I was accom-
panied by her Majesty's Ambassador at Paris. That inter-
view was proposed upon matters referring exclusively to
English and French maritime interests.
My subsequent interviews with the Emperor, preceding
the last, were upon a like mission. At some of them he in-
troduced the subject of the civil war in America, and spoke
freely upon it. Whatever he said was fully reported by me
at the time to Lord Cowley, with the Emperor's knowledge
and permission. The interview I had in company with Mr.
Roebuck on the 23d ult., to which he referred in the house,
was brought about by circumstances which, in due time,
shall be fully made known to the country. I should have
had no objection to make what then passed equally known
to Lord Cowley when returning to London from Fontaine-
bleau, through Paris, had time permitted.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
8, Austin Friars, City, June 3. W. S. LINDSAY.
HERALD.—We fear that the Foreign Secretary
is much too great. a man to have leisure to read the
newspapers; but we beg to call the attention of
those who are less occupied or less exalted to the
real demands of the mercantile community, which
we submit must be imperatively urged upon the
Foreign Secret-41. y in Parliament before the session
is over. In the first place, it is required that a
somewhat less abject deference should be shown for
the der4isions of Federal prize courts. No one wishes
to d.l epute the high character of the Supreme Court
of the United States; or to doubt that, even under
the tyranny of Mr. Lincoln, and while in fear of
arrest and indefinite imprisonment by martial vio-
lence, the judges of that court will do their duty in
a manner becoming the successors of Judge Story
and Chancellor Kent. But what is affirmed is, that
the courts constituted ad hoc by the present Admi-
nistration are entitled to no more than that degree
of formal courtesy and official recognition which
must be accorded even to the authors of their
existence"—that they are not respectable, that they
are not impartial, and that their proceedings should
be watched with extreme and jealous vigilance.
What is asked is, that our Foreign Office should
take steps to obtain prompt and exact information
regarding the proceedings of these courts ; and
should insist on the immediate reparation of the
obvious illegalities and iniquities of which those
proceedings afford evidence. It is not asked that
their decisions should be treated with as little respect
as was shown to the municipal courts of Brazil ; but
only that the British Government should see that
British subjects are not annoyed without due cause,
and are not robbed of their property by sentences
at variance with law, with facts, and with justice.
It is expected, too, that the Foreign Secretary shall
cease to be the apologist for the outrages of United
States naval officers on British shipping, and cease
to hold language which tends to release the Ame-
rican Government and tribunals from the whole-
some fear of being called to account for any acts
tending to the illegal restriction of British trade
and to the oppression of British subjects. Farther,
it is not demanded that Lord Russell shall
protect any vessel which shall make an attempt
to break the blockade of a blockaded port, or to
enter, with arms or other contraband of war
on board, any Confederate port, blockaded or
otherwise, or any Federal port. All that is asked
of him is, that he shall strictly enforce that
rule of international law laid down by all judges
and jurists, controverted by no one, and expressly
declared by Lord Stowell, Admiralty judge, when
England was the great assertor of maritime belli-
gerent rights, which declares that " all trade be-
tween neutral ports is equally lawful," that there
can be no question in such trade of contraband of
war, and that the seizure of a vessel admittedly
bound for a neutral port, or the examination of her
cargo to ascertain its character, until it is ascertained
that she is not bound for a neutral port, is an offence
which no neutral power can suffer to pass unnoticed.
It is asked that he shall distinctly state in his place
in Parliament—in order to do away with miscon-
ceptions likely to arise from the language he has
already uied.--that neutral vessels have a right to
carry what cargoes they will, for sale to whom they
will, and to what port they will, so long as it be
not to a port in actual possession of either bellige-
rent ; and that the ultimate destination of that
cargo, be it what it may, is a point which concerns
neither the ship that carries it nor the belligerents
who may visit her. It is asked that he shall notify
to Mr. Seward, in the most courteous and conside-
rate terms which can be made clearly intelligible—