The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-20 00:00:00

nE2ERIAL P.A2LIAMEN

HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening,
The Lord Chancellor took his seat at the usual hour.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Bristol and North Somerset Railway, Teign Valley
Railway, and Cork and Youghal Railway bills were read
a second time..
Lord STILATFORD de REDCLIEFE called attention
to the cruelties that are at present being practised in Po-
land. Fie gave every credit to her Majesty's Government
for actines with the very best desire for the welfare and
peace of Europe; but, at the same time, he could not help
hopin g that something of a more positive character would
be d one, and concluded by asking for some information on
the; subject.
Earl RUSSELL said on Wednesday last a despatch left
iondon for St Petersburg, and when replies had been re-
ceived to it her Majesty's Government would lay the whole
of the papers before the house.
Lord BROUGHAM expressed his regret at the atroci-
ties, but thought they were only such atrocities as were
incident on. civil war. Similnr, ii possible more painful,
occurrences were happening on the other side the Atlantic,
of which all Europe with one consent disapproved.
THE BRAZILS.
The Earl of MALMESBURY rose for the purpose of
calling the attention of their lordships to the state of our
relations with Brazil, and also to move an humble address
to her Majesty for copies of any papers show-
ing on what rem) t the reduced demand for com-
pensation from the Government of Brazils was assessed
at the sum of 23,200 ; also for a copy of the despatch al-
luded to by Mr. Christie as having been written to the
Brazilian Minister for Foreign Affairs, on the wreck of the
Prince of Wales, and not publishel in the Brazilian papers.
The noble earl said it appeared to him that this
country could not at the present time allow
an ambassador to withdraw from it with the
plea that he had been unjustly treated, and it behoved the
noble earl opposite to give some explanation of the cause of
the circumstance in justification of the course pursued by
her Majesty's Government. He had four charges to
bring against the noble earl. The first was for
making no allowance for the peculiar state of the
country in which the event took place. Secondly, for
having given such instructions, dictated by his own judg-
ment and his own responsibility, to his subordinates in
Brazil; thirdly, with not having exerted himself personally
to settle the question, but leaving it entirely to be discussed
by means of cold official correspondence ; and, fourthly,
he charged the noble earl with ordering these reprisals,
which, if justified, the manner in which they were exe-
cuted could not for a moment be supported. The noble earl
then dwelt upon the correspondence which took place at the
outset of the dispute between her Majesty's Minister at Rio
and the Brazilian Government, in which the latter offered
even then to refer the matter to arbitration, and contended
that Mr. Christie should have accepted that offer, and at
once removed the matter from Rio to London. In place of
that, prompted and encouraged by the noble lord at the head
of the Foreign Department, he proceeded to make reprisals,
and committed an act which, if Brazil had been a strong
Power, would have led to war. (Hear, hear,) Reprisals
were always the act of the strong, but, when necessary,
should be made in the least offensive way; and no complaint
could be made if the noble lord (Earl Russell), instead of
directing the seizure of Brazilian vessels in the harbour of
Rio, had sent a few policemen on board half-a-dozen of the
Brazilian vessels which might at the time have been found
lying in the docks of London. (Hear.) It might be that the
noble lord had one law for the strong and another for the
weak; but if he had but the one law, and always acted on it,
he would as certainly provoke a war, as he had in the pre-
sent instance insulted and exasperated an innocent and
friendly people. (Hear, hear.)
Earl RUSSELL—I think it must be allowed by your
lordships that it is a part of the general law of nations—that
it is a part of the municipal law allowed by all civilised
countries—that the persons and property of foreign subjects
should be respected by them. Now, this is the only principle
upon which the proceedings of the Government have been
founded. We have not thought it right to connive at the
plunder of British subjects—at the suspected murder of Bri-
tish subjects—without asking from the foreign government
in whose country the outrages took place all the reparation
in their power. That has been the principle upon which we
have proceeded ; and I do hope that the commercial import-
ance of Brazil will not be put forward by the noble earl as a
reason for not asking some remedy for these grievances. I
am ready to admit that it was a serious matter to make any
demand upon Brazil with which she might hesitate to com-
ply ; I am quite ready to admit that it is most desirable that
we should be on the most friendly terms with Brazil; but I
cannot admit that its commercial importance, or our desire
to be on friendly terms with it, should make us blind or
indifferent to the wrongs of British subjects experienced at
its hands. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord and some organs
of the public press seem to maintain that it did not signify
what outrages our fellow-subjects were exposed to abroad,
in comparison to the millions of property which were impe-
rilled by misunderstanding. I cannot argue the question
upon that foundation. I must argue it upon the foundation
upon which we have always acted—that where a wrong has
been committed a remedy should be asked in firm and tem-
perate terms, and, if refused, should be exacted by some
measure of force. I find that since 1831 up to the present
time there have been 21 cases in which France has adopted
coercive measures in order to obtain redress; that there have
been 22 cases in which Great Britain has adopted coercive
measures in order to obtain redress; and that there have
been 23 cases in which the United States have adopted like
measures, to obtain redress. This shows at least that in the
opinion of those great maritime countries measures of coer-
cion are sometimes necessary, and that you cannot obtain
redress without them. What was the case with regard to
this perticular matter of the shipwreck of the Prince Of
Wales ? The noble lord here detailed the circumstances of
the shipwreck, which are now familiar to the public, and
contended that at the time when Mr. Consul Vereker pro-
ceeded to the coast to institute inquiries concerning them,
his mind was sane and unclouded. The noble earl (Mal-
mesbury) had treated with some pleasantry Mr. Vereker's
going to the house of the justice of the peace in order to
investigate the matter. He (Earl Russell) owned that it did
not appear to him to be a matter for pleasantry, bat rather
of commendation, and he was glad that a British officer so
well performed his duty. (Hear, hear.) Having found
the ship's boat and oars, and seen in the magistrate's house
chests which were not wet inside, but which were empty of
their contents, Mr. Vereker asked where the bodies of the
sailors were who were said to have been buried. If there
had been no foul play, the natural answer would have been
to point out the spot, and to facilitate the inquest which
was demanded of them. The noble earl (Malniesbury)
stated that four bodies had been produced for the inquest,
but he entirely suppressed the fact that there were six other
bodies which were not produced.
Earl of MALMESBURY—I said that four bodies had
been found, but that the other six could not be found in
consequence of the sands.

Earl RUSSELL continued—Wit'a regard to the four
which were produced, the opinion was that they had been
drowned; but as to the other six having been lost in the
sands, as stated by the noble earl, it required an immense
amount of credulity to give any credence to so frivolous
a pretext. The reasonable inference was that they did not
wish to produce those bodies for fear of the tale they would
tell—(hear, hear)—and that was the inference which her
Majesty's Government had drawn from it. It was quite
clear that those persons who knew everything about the
plunder of the ship and the fate of the crew endeavoured to
conceal it, and there was the further fact that some of the
property was found in his house. He did not complain of
there being such persons on this wild coast, or that the
Brazilian Government did not at once bring it into a state
of civilisation; but what he did complain of was
that they were accomplices in hiding the facts, and that
no means were taken by the Brazilian Government to
institute and carry out a rigid and vigilant inquiry, and
that they left that man in the office of a magistrate, and
in the same position of authority he enjoyed before the
ocourrencies complained of. One of two things the Bta-
oil:v ltiisa Government ought to have done—either to have
gated the circumstances, or to have said that the
district
was in that uncivilised state that they must leave it
to the representatives of the foreign Government complain-
ing to dealNvi
with the aggressors as they deemed best. He
could not
Governmentot, an however,hconceivetoanythird course open. The Brazilian
had taken a different course ; they
pretended
ray, and asserted that they could give
redress ; yet, at the
same time they used every means in
their power to prevem juice from being done. That being
the state of things, it
impossible
rnatter her Majesty's Govern-
ment could allow the
accordingly demanded emu to ties in silence, and they
said that he (Earl Ruasell)pe ha n. The noble earl had
his
serious a tone. In June, 1861, the Wet demands in too
ee
8n
and on the 6th September, 1861, he
n e was committed,
consul, which was couched in anything htut a (m4E:WA to our
by another,
and
r, dated
imperious terms. That was followed
Feb. 8, 1862, complaining that the explanations
the Brazilian Government were very unsatisfactory, which
dhieh
by
was written in equally becoming terms. A great authority
in the India Office had said that the despatches Which
emanated in that office were of the humdrum style, and he
(Earl Russell) was inclined to believe that those he had
written upon this subject did not rise much above it. After
some months had elapsed he determined to demand compen-
sation, but, so far from leaving that matter to Mr. Consul
Vereker or Mr. Christie, all he empowered them to do was
to inform him of the facts, and it was independent of them
and of Admiral Warren that he made his demand for com-
pensation. Mr. Christie acted in entire conformity with the
spirit of the instructions sent to him, and it was not until
he was instructed to make positive demands for reparation
that he did so. Mr. Christie was not instructed to ask for
arbitration, for in the despatch of the Bth October he in-
formed him further orders would be sent him, and they were
forwarded to him on the 4th November. What he said was,
that if the Brazilian Government should propose arbitration
her Majesty's Government would be ready to consent to
it. It was not our place to make the offer, and if we had the
Brazilian Government would have considered we had no
ooa, deuce in our case, and would have sought for further
delay. What he said was, that if the
Brazilian Government
thought bad they
•a case, let them propose arbitration, and
her males
oNernment would consider it. The Govern-