The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-25 00:00:00

THE NAVAL SERVICE.

Sir. J. HAY rose to move the resolution of which he had
given notice, omitting, however, the fourth clause. The
noble lord at the head of the Government had at the last
moment given notice of a committee on the same subject.
It might at first sight appear disrespectful on his part to
press his motion, but he felt certain the house would not
long consider it so when they remembered that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had laid down the axiom that the
referring a subject to a committee was shelving it. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer shook his head, but the right
hon• gentleman submitted that axiom to the house on a
previous occasion. They therefore well knew what the
Government meant by referring any subject to a commit-
tee. The hon. and gallant member then referred to the
past proceedings in that house and elsewhere with regard
to this subject, anti he complained of the speech made re-
cently at Devonport by the first sea Lord of the Admiralty,
professing ignorance on the complaints of the officers of the
navy, and also to a circular issued by the Admiralty con-
demning combinations among officers to make their griev-
ances known, in order to prevent them obtaining their just
rights. He next referred to what had been done tc obtain
a correct account of the feelings of the officers of the navy
on the subjects matter of complaint, and he directed atten-
tion to inaccuracies in the document that had been issued
by the Admiralty as to the cost of the proposed alterations.
He denied that the navy had been restored to a satisfactory
condition. Promotion, it was true, had been more steady in
1861 and 1862 than it bad been since the war of

1815 ; but he felt convinced there would be greater
stagnation and irregularity of promotion during
the nsxt 1C years then there had been before. The advan-
tage attending his plan would be to give the navy a younger
class of officers, and consequently officers with more efficient
powers. The system was adopted in all the foreign navies.
and Admiral Munday, one of the most distinguished offi-
cers in the service, pointed out, in a work just published by
him, the inferiority of the British navy in comparison with
the French, in consequence of this system being in practice
in their navy. To obtain the retirement of naval officers it
would be necessary first of all to increase the retired list of
the navy, by transferring to it a certain number of officers
from the active list. At that moment there were six diffe-
rent descriptions of retired lists of admirals, 10 of retired
lists of captains, four of commanders, and three of lieuten.
ants. In each of those lists there were individual officers
to be found, some with longer and some with shorter periods
of service than in others of the lists ; all were intermixed ;
it was impossible to discriminate between the different lists.
At the same time, the greatest jealousy existed between
officers on different lists. The system was merely a hand-
to-mouth one. At one moment a certain number of offi-
cers were bribed off the active list for 18s. 6d. a day, and a
little later on two more were bribed off at 255. a day, and
these had not been of the same standing as their brethren i
who had been bribed off at the lower figure. His proposi-
tion was to amalgamate the several lists, giving to each a,
proper amount of retirement, according to the services per-
formed. It would be necessary now to provide for a few
very distinguished admirals at the head of the list. As soon
as ever an officer passed the ago of a given rank, he should
be retired to the rank above, thus getting a step in rank,

while he was obliged to go upon the retired list. It was
likewise suggested that some of the admirals who had
commanded fleets should receive rank correspond-
ing to that of field marshal in the army ; and the event
that was so shortly to come off seemed a gracious occa-
sion for giving effect to that suggestion. At the same time
it was proposed that the numbe thus appointed
to the highest rank in the navy should eventually not ex-
ceed three. The list of admirals should be reduced to sixty.
At the present moment twenty admirals were employed—
namely, fifteen on active service, and five in connection with
the Board of Admiralty. The captains should be reduced
from 350 to 250, and of the total number of captains no
more than from 115 to 120 were employed. Such a regula-
tion would give the captains an opportunity of constant em-
ployment, or of retiring from the list. He proposed to reduce
the active list generally from 1,753 to 1,313, and prevent its
further increase. What was wanted in the navy was not
only promotion, but a steady flow of promotion. He next
desired to bring under the notice of the house the excessive
lowness of the scale of pay in the navy. The theory ad-
vanced in the circular sent forth in the year 1816 was that
the pay of the navy was fixed with reference to the pay of
the army. Nevertheless, the pay of the rank corresponding
in the two services was very different. Thus, the pay and
allowances of an admiral commanding-in-chief were onl
£2,930 a year, while the pay of a general commanding-
in-chief) was £4,155 ;—of a vice-admiral. £2,555 ;of a
lieutenant-general, £4,051 ;—of a rear-admiral, £2,190,
including table-money; and of a major-general, the corre-
sponding rank £3,904. However, it was asserted in the
circular that there were circumstances attending the posi-
tion of naval commanders which counterbalanced the
superior pay allowed to military officers in command. For
instance, their chances of prize money were put for-
ward as one element of compensation. And here he might
stop to ask what had become of the prize money earned
during the last ten years by the navy ; what had become
of the prize money earned at Kertch ? (Hear, hear.) But 0
should also be remembered that this scale of pay and allow-
ance to military commanders was quite independent of their
appointments to regiments. Moreover, the batta and allow-
ances that used to be given to naval commanders was taken
from them a few years back ; and the result was that the
commander-in-chief on the East India station, who used to
receive £4,500 a year, now got only £2,190 a year. The mili-
tary, however, continued in receipt of the old scale of pay
and allowances. Indeed, on that distant station, no public
servants were so badly remunerated as the officers of the
navy, He asked, then, that the pay of naval officers com-
manding in the East Indies should be so increased as to
prevent the necessity of their running into debt. At present,
o th
the
f commander-in
mrtacnhtieteeomn
mtheenAdlseduintedrerrantehae
Mediterranean station---on
Crown—re-
ceived only £2,000 a year. Well, he proposed to increase his
pay to £4,500. Formerly the command on the West India
station was worth £1.4,000 a year. He did not propose to
return to that state of things, but he did hold that it was
proper that the officer in command on that station should
receive an amount of pay that would not require him to
disburse a considerable sum out of his private resources
on the requirements of the public service. Since the year
1815 the pay of the captains had been considerably reduced.
At that period the average rate of pay amongst the captains
was £566 a year, while now, including the command
while there were some on the
money, it was only 050,

active list who received only £365. As for the command
money, its average rate was tut £6 10s. Be-
fore command money was given captains, although
they were in the habit of entertaining, were not corn-
pelted to do so ; but now they were obliged, for if
they didn't, the £9O which they received as command money
was pointed at. It was true, military officers purchased their
commissions ; but he was sure that there was no officer who
before he obtained his flag, had not expended between
£3,000 and £4,000 of his private money upon the service.
Then the naval officer was liable at any moment to be turned
adrift upon half-pay, utterly insufficient; while on rejoin-
ing a ship, a captain was obliged to spend £4OO or £5OO on
the outfit of his ship, and even the lieutenant had to dis-
pense a considerable sum before he was in a condition to
perform his duty. The hon. and gallant officer went into
considerable detail to show that the best position which a
captain in the English navy could attain, after 60 years'
service, and the greatest possible luck, was the pay of £766
a year ; and then contrasted it with the fact that in the naval
estimates just presented to the house provision was made
for the solicitor to the Admiralty retiring on a pension of
£746 a year, after 18 years' service. As compared with the
civil service, every branch of the navy was in a much infe-
rior position. A comparison of the scale of pay in the Eng-
lish navy with that of foreign navies would show the great
inferiority of our own service. The highest full sea pay in
the English navy of a captain was £766, and the lowest
was £365; while the pay in the American navy was £875
a year, or 140 per cent. higher than the average pay of the
captains in the English navy. Captains half-pay in the
English service varied from £264 to £l9l per year; while
in the American navy it was £625, or 227 per cent. higher
than that of English officers. Commanders in the English
navy, with their command money, received £364 a year.
The American full pay of the same rank was £654 a
year; while their half pay of £468 a year was higher
than the English full pay. An English lieutenant in
command, including command money, received £219 per
year; while the American officer was paid £551 55., or an
excess of 143 per cent. The pay of the French officer of
the same class was £355 a year, or an excess of 62
per cent. over the pay in the English navy. The highest
pay of an English lieutenant serving on. board a ship was
£2OO, while an American lieutenant serving in the same
position received £468 a year, and the French officer £355 a
year. The lowest pay of an English lieutenant was £lB2,
of an American £312. The highest half-pay of the English
lieutenant was £ll5 and the lowest £75, while the American
scale was £302 and £250 respectively, being 242 per cent,
in excess of the English. This comparison showed that
the officers of the American navy were paid more than
double of what English officers received. He did not wish
to detain the house by going through the pay of the sur-
geons of the English navy, except to say that when a cap-
tain paid off his ship he found himself on less half•pay than
his surgeon, whose class had had something like a measure
of justice awarded to them, thanks to their own remon-
strances. He would submit to the house whether it was
right for the Government to suggest in this way to officers
that nothing would be yielded to justice, but everything
would be given to compulsion. Another fact he would
state was, that the junior captain of a regiment—ranking
with a junior naval lieutenant—serving in China received
£46 a year more than the naval captain commanding the
naval brigade in China, the senior naval officer on that part
of the station. One of the suggestions in the proposed plan
would, he was sure, carry with it the wishes of the house.
It was that naval lieutenants should be encouraged to serve
by having 6d. a day increase of pay for every year's service
up to 20, and then be enabled to retire with a step in rank.
It would be desirable also to adopt the plan of giving first
lieutenants, who took the trouble to qualify themselves in
gunnery, so as to instruct others, additional pay, on the
principle that adjutants were paid in the army. It was
one of those alterations which would alone render the navy
efficient. Another point to which he wished to allude was
the necessity of reducing the number of cadets entering
the navy. The proposal in the suggestions, in which he
heartily concurred, was, that no more cadets should be
introduced into the navy than could be absorbed by a
proper system of promotion. The condition of the warrant
officers of the navy would have to be improved, and en-
couragement held out to the very best men to accept those
posit ions. Another point was the establishment of naval
colleges, which were not only a great advantage, but an
absolute necessity. He regretted to state that, out of 250
boys, no less than 27, of thirteen and fourteen years ofage,
had been sent to Hasler Hospital, suffering from a disease
which was too loathsome to mention. Had such a state of
things arisen at any public school in the country, no Eng-
lish gentleman would have allowed his son to remain there
a single day. (Hear, hear.) It had been stated that it was
necessary that lads should go to sea early ; but he might
mention that Lord Dundenald, a:most distinguished naval
officer, did not go to sea until he was nearly 18 years of
age, and he thought that those lads should be kept at
school till they were of about the same age. The hon. and
gallant gentleman concluded by moving the resolution of
which he had given notice, namely :—" That this house
will, upon Thursday next, resolve itself into a committee to
consider of an humble address to be presented to her
Majesty submitting to her Majesty that, in the
opinion of this house-1. The position of the
officers of her Majesty's naval service, in respect of promo-
tion and retirement, is not satisfactory, and ought to be
amended. 2. That with a view to the increased efficiency
of the naval service, and to meet the just expectations of
officers with respect to promotion, it is desirable to adopt
for all ranks the principle of retirement by age. 3. That
the pay of naval officers ought to be so adjusted as to
enable them consistently to maintain the rank they bold,
and to give them fair remuneration for honourable service."
(Cheers.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE rose to reply; but the hon.
baronet ultimately gave way to the repeated calls for Lord
Palmerston.

Lord PALMERSTON said—Doing full justice, as I am
prepared to do, to the motives of the hon. and gallant officer
who has made this motion, and convinced as I um that he
has been actuated by nothing more than an honourable
desire to promote the interests of the service of which he is
a distinguished ornament, 'yet I cannot refrain from dis•
senting from the course which out of the house, and now in
the house, the hon. and gallant officer has thought fit to
pursue,_(Hear, hear.) If there is one principle with regard
to military and naval bodies which ought more than any
other to be borne in mind, it is that military and naval
bodies ought not to become deliberative assemblies, with
the view especially of enforcing on the Government what
they conceive will be changes for their own benefit and ad-
vantage. (Cheers.) It is a most dangerous precedent if it
be admitted that the navy of the country or the army of the
country are to meet together and to appoint committees,
which committees are to correspond with every member of
the profession with a view to inciting them to state griev-
ances which they feel, or to feel grievances of which they
were not hitherto aware. (Cheers and laughter.) Such
proceedings must tend to shake the foundation of military
and naval discipline, and are most dangerous in their pos-
sible consequences. (Cheers.) I have too high an opinion
of the naval officers of this country to entertain any appre-
hension as to the result of the labours of the committee of
which the hon. and gallant officer has this evening been the
mouthpiece. But I say the principle on which they have
acted is a dangerous principle, and, I trust, will not be
deemed a precedent for future proceedings. (Hear, hear.)
When you ask members of a profession, individually or
collectively, whether they would not like a little more pay
or earlier promotion, whether they don't think that other
people in some respects are better off than themselves, and
whether they wont feel obliged to any man who will stand
forward as their champion with the view to obtain advan-
tages of some sort or another, if you know human nature
you know what the answer will be. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. and gallant officer has stated in a very impressive
manner that which I have no doubt in many cases is
perfectly true, that hardships are felt by members
of the naval profession from the inadequacy of their
pay to the demands made upon them and the slowness
of promotion. But is the navy the only service in which
you can find those complaints, and often well-founded com-
plaints ? Are there no such complaints in the Church ? Are
there no complaints in the law ? Are there no complaints in
the civil service ? In every one of these great national pro-
fessions will you not find men of merit and talent, who
justly feel their advancement is not equal to their preten-
sions and qualities, and that the remuneration which they
receive is not nearly sufficient to furnish them with all the
means to maintain the position which they desire? But we
are obliged to look at these things on a great scale, and can-
not deal with one profession singly and by itself. (Hear.)
If you begin to increase the pay and advantages of one pro-
fession, you will be called on to do the same with others.
You cannot improve the condition of the officers without
feeling that something must be done for themen in the navy.
You cannot increase the advantages of the navy without
doing something for the army. You would be led, in this
t e countryl
what
s at
way, to an enormous increase of national expenditure, and
when the Government came down with the estimates founded
on
proved principle," a cry would be raised in the house and
h
thi t e
hwano n .n
a increaseliundue
do f
gallant
taxation.increase
o,
ffi c ecc
(Cheers.)
ervery
s )
T
naturally expenditure,here
fore •
and a
the
t hon.thhaproportionateatt and gallant officer would call an 6t im-
proved
looking to his profession, has not sufficiently attended to
the bearing of the question on the general administration
and resources of the country. But I think, with all defer-
ence, that the course pursued by this self-constituted com-
mittee of officers is not altogether consistent with a due re-
gard to thel:discipline of the naval service.v,l roust be per-
mitted to say that the course which ;the hon.:and gallant
officer has taken in proposing these resolutions is not alto-
gether consistent with a proper regard for the legitimate
functions of this house. It is impossible to pretend to pre-
scribe the proper limits for the action of this house. I know
full-well there is no part of the administration of this mighty
empire, with all the organisation of this mighty empire,
which this house is not entitled to take into considera-
tion, and upon consideration to propound opinions and ad-
vice, But in a mixed and balanced constitution like ours
each branch ought well and truly to consider with great i
dis-
cretion and forbearance how it will exercise its functions n
a particular case. (Hear.) The hon. and gallant officer
has proposed three resolutions.- The first bears on the sys-
tem of promotion and retirement in the navy; the second
on the extension of a system of compulsory retirement upon
certain stages of life; and the third calls on the house to
affirm that the pay and allowances of the navy ought to be