The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-21 00:00:00

CHURCH-RATES

Mr. PENDARVES presented a petition from Radruth,
[braying for the abolition of Church-rates.
TITHES.

Mr. T. GRATTAN presented petitions from the county
of Wicklow, praying for the abolition of Tithes, and in favour
of Municipal Reform.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.

Mr. HARDY gave notice that on Tuesday, the 26th of
March, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent
bribery at elections.
POST OFFICE.

Mr. L ABOUC II ERE laid certain papers on the table re-
lative to the Post Office inquiry.

CHtiliefl RATES.

Mr. PATTE SON presented a petition from the congrega-
tion of Tottenham Chapel, in favour of the total abolition of
Church-rates.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a numerously
signed petition from a congregation in Edinburgh, praying for
the total abolition of Church-rates.

Mr. FITZSIMON presented a number of petitions from
parishes in the county of Dublin, praying for Municipal Re-
form.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a report from the
Commissioners appointed to enquire into the state of Lower
Canada.

The NOBLE LORD then moved the Order of the Day for
the House to resolve itself into a Committee upon the Irish
Municipal Bill.
CANADA.

Mr. ROBINSON would be obliged to the Noble Lord if
he would mention the day when he proposed to take the dis-
cussion upon the affairs of Canada.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL bad just laid the Report upon
the table ; and lie had before stated that it was his-intention to
bring the subject for Ward to-morrow se'nnight.
Mr. WA SON said it would be very much to the conve-
nience of many Hon. Members if the Noble Lord would to-
morrow, or next day, place on the votes the exact amendment
in terms, which he meant to move as an amendment to the
motion of- the Hon. Member for Berkshire, respecting the
working of the Poor Laws.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no hesitation in saying the
amendment he intended to move was for a Select Committee
to inquire into the operation of the New Poor Laws, under
the regulations issued by the Commissioners.
IRISH MUNICIPAL REFORM.

Lord FRANCIS EGERTON then rose and spoke as
follows :--Mr. Speaker, I can hardly hope that the cir-
cumstance of this being the second occasion on which I have
undertaken, in deference to the wishes of those with whom I
usually politically act, to do that which the House knows I
very rarely presume to do, to offer any suggestions of mine as
to the course we should pursue upon a subject of great public
interest and national concern—l can hardly hope that this
circumstance, though it may call for undivided attention
on the part of the House to the observations which I have to
offer—l can hardly hope that it will amount to much allevia-
tion of the embarrassment and difficulty I feel in presenting
myself to your notice. On this occasion so many incidental topics
have been—for reasons which I do not complain of—introduced
in the first instance by the Noble Lord, the Secretary of State
to the Home Department, who brought forward the subject,
that it becomes extremely difficult for any Gentleman, who
deals with the subject at all, to treat it abstractedly
and in that manner which is most essential to the
merits of the question which is before the House—l
mean the Bill proposed by the Noble Lord opposite
for establishing municipal corporations in Ireland.—(Bear.)
I may find a difficulty, in common with others, altogether to
avoid the introduction of those incidental topics which unfor-
tunately have a tendency to lead to much public animosity,
and to controversy foreign to the immediate subject. I will
endeavour to avoid all unnecessary introduction of those
topics, and I know not whether I may repeat
what I expressed on a former occasion that I
would undertake the task with the best of my ability;
but that I hope to be able to avoid any unnecessary infusion of
any topics which can give offence to the other side of the House.
Sir, there are many reasons of a personal nature why I
ought not be anxious to come forward on this occasion, but in
any thing that may fall from me I beg to be understood as
unwilling to give offence to any one. The resolution of which
I have placed a notice on the books of this House will be suf-
ficiently understood by the Noble Lord opposite, and by those
who support him, to be the same as I before asked the house
to concur in, and inasmuch as, with some slight ex-
ceptions, the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord is the
same as that of last year, the course which I and those
with whom I have the honour of acting, propose now to fol-
low, without any deviation, is similar to that which we fol-
lowed on the former occasion. And if I could, in justice to
the arguments which were then used on this side of the House,
trust to the recollection of the Noble Secretary for the Home
Department as to what occurred in the debate, I would willingly
take his version of it rather than my own. In the speech in which
the Noble Lord introduced this question ; he was pleased to
call to the recollection of the House the topics and the argu-
ments then advanced at this side, and he put into our mouths
his own version of the arguments brought forward, and the
expressions he used. He said the only argument in
support of the views that were entertained here was
this—that because England was inhabited by English-
men, and Scotland by Scotchmen, but Ireland being
inhabited by Irishmen, it was not fit to receive
municipal institutions.—( Loud cheers front the Minis-
terial benches.) Sir, that cheer shows me how neces-
sary it is for me, humble an individual as I am, to disclaim
such an argument and such expressions, couched in language
so extremely offensive to the people of Ireland. It obviously
suits the purpose of the Noble Lord, whose tenure of office and
of power rather depends upon the degree of the political ther-
mometer at which the excitement of the people of Ireland on
public subjects can be kept up, to give such a representation
to our expressions and our arguments. Without meaning any-
thing personally offensive to the Noble Lord, I would say that
this little Parliamentary representation may be found to serve
the into! ests of his party, well calculated, as it is, to awaken
the national pride of Ireland, and to arouse a sense of injured
honour which I would be the last to undervalue.—( Hear.)
I never said, and I believe I may say for this side of the
House no Gentleman ever said, anything that the Noble Lord
ould have the right to strip down to the naked and
offensive proposition he has done.—( Cheers.) We never
said there was anything in the national character of Irish-
men that would disqualify them from accepting any bene-
fits that might be conferred on them by Parliament. What we
said was, that there was a condition in the state of Ireland
which, in our judgment, made it unwise to apply to it such mea-
sures as had been proposed by the Noble Lord. The Noble
Lord spoke of his measures as measures of justice and peace
to Ireland ; we told him, we thought they would inflict injustice,
exasperate strife, and make things incurable.—( Loud cheers. )
The Noble Lord spoke of the destruction of monopolies. We
told him that the measure he was bringing forward would
lead to their resuscitation.—( Cheers.) Ho had quoted jus-
tice to Ireland as identified with giving them self-government
by means of local corporations ; in answer to that we quoted the
instances of Birmingham and Manchester, and we showed him the
petition from Belfast, and denied that the terms were synony-
mous. The Noble Lord spoke of identity of legislation ; we
spoke to him of the Assistant Barristers, and his own Police
Bill. —( Cheers. ) And I now have to thank the Noble Lord
for supplying me with another topic—with a measure about
to be introduced for the establishment of Poor Laws
in Ireland. I believe the measure is not yet printed and be-
fore the House, but the Report and its particulars are at all
events in the hands of Members ; and I must say, whether
looking at the speech of the Noble Lord, which did him infi-
nite credit, or the Report founded on it, it would not be
difficult to say it was an increasing proof of the difficulty of
applying that identity of legislation which the Noble Lord
advocates.—( Hear.) If you take, for instance, the union
of parishes, Mr. Nicholls observes if it were desired to
establish in Ireland parochial relief it would fail.--( Hear. )
The Noble Lord wont on to say that the difference between the
measure for Ireland and that which was in operation in Eng-
land had been adverted to in the speech of the Noble Lord
opposite. The Noble Lord had alluded to the difficulty of
appointing ex-officio Magistrates on the several Boards of
Guardians. There was one feature in it on which he had had oc-
casion lately to require one of his constituents to make some
inquiry nbout, which, he was afraid, would press itself on the
Noble Lord more strongly than he should wish; not, he hoped,
more strongly than he would find it possible to meet—he meant
as to the introduction of the present Poor-laws of England
into those districts in the North in which it had not as yet
been fully established. A correspondent of his had told him,
that for the last two years he had never failed attending
one of the Boards which had been formed in the county
which he represented. That correspondent was a clergyman,
who, in the discharge of his religious duties, did not neglect
the interests of the poor, and he believed that, in the country,
it would be found clergymen were valuable assistants in the
working of the Poor-law Bill. But would it be contended that
clergymen of any persuasion in Ireland could interfere as the
clergymen of England did in their usual avocations? Was
there a stronger proof of the difference in the state of society
in the two countries than this, that in the measure of the Noble
Lord, precaution had been taken that no clergyman of any per-
suasion should act as a member of the Board of Guardians in Ire-
land? The House, he was sure, would not thank him either to
cite from memory or read from Hansard the precise words which
he had found it necessary to use upon the former occasion
when he brought the same motion before the House.
Supposing the Noble Lord to be still unconvinced
by the arguments which had been used in opposition
to the Bill ; and supposing those on his (the Opposition) side
should still feel the same objections as before, notwithstanding
the reply of the Noble Lord, he would admit there remained
two very important questions. He at once told the Noble
Lord that he did not rest his opposition to the Bill
upon any inherent blemish or defect in the Irish character—
that might be a good argument to be used by a Virginian
Planter in Congress, while speaking on the slave question,
but it would not do for an Hon. Member of that House, while
talking of his Roman Catholic brethren.—( Hear, hear.) The
first of these questions was, whether the Bill contained any al-
terations or modifications which could reconcile them (the
Opposition) to the Bill ? The other question was, whether
the state of Ireland had altered—had been so much im-
proved since last year, as to reconcile them to the Bill
on that ground. To tho first question the Noble Lord
would at once answer, that with one material exception,
the Bill was the same as that of last year. That exception
was as to the appointment of Sheriffs. In the Bill of last year
they were to be elected by the Town Councils, subject to the
silent approbation or rejection of the Lord Lieutenant. Upon
that occasion an amendment was suggested by his Right

Honourable Friend, ( Sir Robert Peel), which was at on

agreed to by the Noble Lord. The Bill was now
again modified. The recess afforded leisure for reflection
and for taking advice. It was on that ground he supposed
that the Bill was now again altered, and instead of the old
mode, the Sheriffs were to be taken from the lists that
were forwarded to the Lord Lieutenant by the Town Councils.
He could easily imagine that the Noble Lords opposite (Lord
J. Russell and Lord Morpeth) anticipated that no possible in-
convenience would arise out of collisions in the Irish Town-
councils, as long as they held the Government of Ireland.--
(Hear, hear.) Really the opinions of the present Govern-
ment in Ireland appeared so .extremely liberal, on the sub-
ject of qualification for offices of trust and confidence,
as made it appear within the compass of probability, that the
persons proposed by the Councils would never meet with any
serious objection on the part of the Lord Lieutenant. It was
perfectly obvious, that the circumstance of an individual so
proposed being a notorious and eager political partisan would
form no such objection. He could imagine that an
occasional violation of the law even would form no such objec-
tion ; and he might, therefore, easily conceive that in the Noble
Lord ( Russell's) contemplation, no inconvenience in the working
machinery would arise out of this provision. But he might
be allowed to imagine the possibility of a Government
being established in Ireland holding somewhat different opi-
nions upon the subject—he did not mean a Tory or
an Orange Government, or any particular Government what-
ever ; but he could imagine the establishment of a Govern-
ment which should think that a certain degree of political agi-
tation was in itself rather a disqualification than a recommen-
dation for officers of trust and confidence, or which was
largely concerned in the administration of justice.
The present Government might act upon the presumption
that an occasional violation of the law qualified an individual
for its due administration—that the casual experience of its
minor penalties was likely to lead to its merciful administration.
(A laugh.) This was a principle upon which cer-
tain country gentlemen occasionally act when they ap-
point the principal poacher of the neighbourhood to the
office of gamekeeper—(Great laughter)—or the principle
upon which the bandit of Italy became the escort of the mail,
or the French brigand the guard of his Sovereign. He did
not offer any imputation on the motives and views of his Noble
Friends opposite. He wished them to legislate for all possible
and contingent Governments, and not for that particular' one-
which now existed. The next question was certainly a
more important one, namely, whether any change had occurred
in the state or circumstances of Ireland since the Bill of last
year ? The Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) in
introducing this subject, drew a very flattering picture of
the state of Ireland very different from the usual melan-
choly one which that country generally presented. This
topic was material in the consideration of the subject so far
as the state of crime was concerned, with reference to those
crimes which had their origin in political animosity, or which
might be attributed to Government. In the first place the Noble
Lord had taken credit for the Irish Govenment for the
suppression of those disturbances which went in Ireland
by the name of " Fair and Faction Feuds." He heard with
surprise that these strange disturbances were rather encou-
raged than discouraged by the local authorities, and were
looked at with something like favour by the central Govern-
ment in Ireland, in deference to the maxim of divide et impera
Lord MO RPETH—You do not quote correctly.
Lord F. EGERTON begged the Noble Lord's pardon ;
but he thought he distinctly heard the Noble Lord use these
words in speaking of the central Government of Ireland. He
did not know what might be the feelings of the Noble Lord ;
but he (Lord F. Egerton) without attempting to defend the
local magistracy, would not serve an hour in the Adminis-
tration of the Chancellor,, who had refused to dismiss
from the Commission of the Peace those who were
found to have acted as described. With regard to the sin-
gular cessation of the disturbances in that country, he was glad,
.for the sake of the unfortunate persons who without any cer-
tain reason engaged in them, to hear that such was the case.
But he might be permitted to express a doubt on one or two
features of the case. As to what they bad heard of the
miraculous and sudden suppression of outrage, he questioned
that it would be enduring, because he recollected, when
the Catholic Association was in the plenitude of its
power and of its influence, the same thing was said ;
and somehow in a very short time after the granting of Ca-
tholic Emancipation, they again broke forth and remained in
full vigour and strength until now, when it was found conve-
nient again to assume the appearance of peace and tranquil-
lity.—( Hear, hear.) He did not know whether or not the
Shanavests were now throwing themselves into the arms of the
Carareets, or the black-hens embracing the magpies ; but he
thought it would appear that the peace and tranquillity
upon which the Noble Lord congratulated the House might
be owing to other causes than the Government of
Earl Mulgrave, or perhaps that others would lay claim to
having established it. With respect to the general statement
of the state of crime in Ireland, drawn from the returns fur-
nished to the Noble 1 ord, he did not mean to question their
nikb e
accuracy,ar but
county,he
would
Tipperary,
a
refer to thes
sheaving
case
t o what of that
tan
unfortunately
rextent
order was re-established. He apprehended that it would be
evident to all persons how false could be the hope of so de-
sirable a result; for it appears from the returns that
there were committed to gaol in that county within the last 12
months, 1,557 persons—(Hear)—and allowing for all the dit7a
ficulties which present themselves to the successful prosecu-
tion of crime in Ireland, there were no less than 1,350 of these
persons convicted of the offences with which they were charged.
He hoped—indeed, he did not mean to deny—that the returns
for the present year would be found more favourable than
those of the last. If a diminution was found to have
taken place in the catalogue of crime, no one would
more heartily rejoice than he would ; but from what he had
stated it would be seen the condition of Ireland was not such
as to justify the expectation held forth by the Noble
Lord.—(blear, bear, hear.) There were many details
connected with that with which he might easily detain
the House, with some slight advantage ; but as they did
not bear directly on the subject he would not trouble the
House with them, but pass by. There was another feature
in the present state of Ireland which it was far more pain-
ful to deal with than with subjects that did not con-
cern any individual either present or absent ; but it was
impossible to dismiss it from contemplation without . the
remark—that was the establishment, the rise and progress
of that Association-( Cheers)—which appeared to him
to have exchanged its former name of Catholic for one not
much improved, as it was borrowed from a revolutionary phrase
—the Catholic National Association of Ireland.
An HW,i. MEMBER—No, the National Association of Ireland.
Lord F. EGERTON—He had thought that it was
the former ; but it was very much to the credit of
the Association, if it had begun with the other name,
and changed it for the present one. He believed it was un-
necessary for hint to trouble the House with any very accurate
description of the measures and objects avowed and professed
by the Associatioe, for that description had already been given
very fully and very accurately in the course of a former
debate. There was one feature however about it that was re-
markable ; it might have been expected under the popular
Government of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment in Ireland, that that Government, controlled as it wall
in the exercise of the administration of the law, by the strong
disposition to clemency, so lately exhibited by the Lord
Lieutenant, it might have been expected, whatever the poli-
tical views of the Association might be, they would have left
Ireland to the exertions and protection of the Government,
as far as regarded the pacification and tranquillity of that
country. Tho Noble Lord had put forth the name of
Lord Mulgrave, as the preventer of confusion in Ireland.
What does the Association say ? Why, in my opinion, they
treat his power with the utmost disrespect.—( Loud cheers.)
They sent down one of their resolutions, drawn with the
greatest minuteness, to every parish in Ireland—( Hear, hear)
—with a view, as they called it, of pacifying the whole coun-
try. He did not know whether the individual who had drawn
that resolution with such scrupulous minuteness was not even
now advising the Lord Lieutenant in the administration of the
law—(lmmense cheering)--with regard to some of those tithe
cases which were so frequently subjects of dispute.—( Hear,
hear.)—lt had been said by the Hon. and Leal ned Member
for Kilkenny that that association was formed with the object
of tranquillising Ireland—(Hear)—but the resolutions which
it passed relative to the' establishment of election agents and
its general organization led him (Lord F. Egerton) to think
that something like the same tranquillity was produced by it
as would be produced by the adoption of the Corporation
Bill of the Noble Lord opposite.--( Hear, hear, hear.)---
It was said that it was advisable, by means of the present
Bill, to create a species of local aristocracies in the Irish
towns. Now, he was no friend to the centralization system,
as practised in France or anywhere else ; and could it
be said that, while such an organization as he had described
was encouraged by the Irish Government, those local aristo-
cracies would invariably direct their operations in favour of
the Government rather than in furtherance of the objects of
the National Association ?—( Hear.) When such an arena for
political discussion in the towns was established, would any
man, knowing the power of agitation in Ireland; be so bold
as to think that the-result would be anything but destruction
to the Established Church of Ireland ?—( Hear.) It was to
prevent any tendency to such a result that the attention of the
House ought to be directed in the consideration of this Bill.
—(lronical cheers from Mr. Roebuck and other Radical Mem-
bers.) The Honourable and Learned Member for Bala had
acted in that cheer with the same candour and honesty which
characterised the rest of his conduct.—(Great cheering.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman was at one and the same time
the open and candid opposer of the Established Church, and
the supporter of this Bill.--( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The
Noble Lord (J. Russell) had expressed it to be his wish to give
support to the Established Church. To him (Lord F. Eger-
ton) the Noble Lord's manner in expressing such 3
wish had appeared to be the result of a cool and careful exa-
mination of the case, and he seemed, upon the balance of every
circumstance in connection with the subject, and after a do
consideration of all the reasons that had been brought to bear
both in favour of and against it, to have made up his mind to
support the Established Church.—(Hear.) He was more
pleased to hear such a determination on the part of the Noble
Lord, after cool and considerate calculation, than if it had
merely been the result of his religious opinions. The Noble(
Lord had referred him to an argument which was constantly
employed by Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House, and
which would, he admitted, have weighed strongly with Ws;
if he did not regard ft as a mere chimera. That argument
was comprised in a few words—it was " Justice and peace f?!.
Ireland." The Noble Lord told them that the object of l'iv;
measure was to get " justice and peace for Ireland." 14°,
there was no political opinion which he (Lord Egerton) enrich
tamed, there was no attachment which he felt for party, wh, `co.
he would not willingly sacrifice if he thought that by
so he could accomplish these objects—he could give justle_
and peace to Ireland.—( Cheers.) " Justice and peace for Ire
land." What did these words mean ? Would the 10:11,
Lord, or any other Hon. Gentleman opposite, do him

by Roman Catholic Members on entering that House ?
Everybody knew what he meant to imply by it; and what he
had insinuated other Members of his party had said without
reserve or hesitation. He did not allude to the Noble Lord
who had brought forward the present motion, for his opi-
nions were always expressed with characteristic moderation;
but to a right reverend prelate, who had very recently ac-
cused the Roman Catholic Members of that House, in a
charge to the clergy of his diocese, of treachery, aggravated
by perjury :—" When we call to mind that such was the na-
ture of the measure, such the argument by which it was en-
forced, I know not in what milder terms the indignation of
an honest mind can be expressed, than by characterising the
conduct of those who demanded it as treachery aggravated by
perjury. No obloquy—however it may be attempted to heap
obloquy on all who thus feel and thus proclaim their feeling
—no violence of invective—from whatever quarter, and in
whatever place, high or low, it may be uttered—shall deter
me from giving expression to similar indignation, as .often as
it shall be called forth by similar perfidy, exhibited in such
a cause." If this was the spirit in which the contest was to
be carried on—if this was the animus with which men of high
ability and high standing were to enter into it—(Cheers)—
they, too, whose sacred calling might inspire them—if not
with a little more of Christian charity towards onr opponents,
at all events with more of decency and of moderation in ex-
pressing their dissent from them--(Continued cheering).—
he could see nothing in that contest that would not affix in-
delible disgrace to the national character. But be this as it
might, he would never shrink from professing and defending
the opinions which he held in that House in the face of the
country. He had seen something of the feelings of Eng-
lishmen of late upon these Irish questions, and he knew that
when the facts were fairly stated an appeal might always be
made from their prejudices to their justice. They would see
the fallacy of the grounds on which the Noble Lord rested
his present motion—they would see that there could be no
monopolizing, no exclusion, no transfer of powers from one
exclusive faction to another, where the power transferred was
vested in the whole body of the people. They knew the
value of municipal institutions, that they taught men to re-
spect the laws, and gave them an interest in enforcing
them ; and they would see no reason why the people of Ireland
should be deprived of these institutions because the majority
were Catholics. If they were told that these -Catholics were
hostile to England and to British connexion, they would point
to the fact that the agitation of the repeal question bad been
dropped from the moment that Ireland possessed a
Government disposed to do it justice. Lord Mulgrave was
what the Honourable and Learned Member for Bath had
termed him—a lucky accident. His endeavours had as yet
been unassisted by the legislature ; nut one Irish question had
been settled by Parliament ; and yet the spirit infused into
the executive by Lord Mulgrave had produced both tranquil-
lity and confidence. Of this the reports of the Judges and of
the Assistant-Barristers afforded the best testimony. But in
effecting this, the executive had been assisted by local associa-
tions, framed for the purpose of putting an end to prmdial
disturbance, by that very people which the Noble Lord de-
clared to be incapable of self-government. The people of
England were perfectly competent to judge of these facts ;
and they would outweigh with them a thousand vague asser-
tions. Let the House do its duty by rejecting the motion of
the Noble Lord—let it sanction the policy upon which the
present Cabinet had staked its existence—and they might
appeal to the country with the most perfect confidence that
public opinion would ratify their decision. (Much cheering.)
Mr. MA CLEAN said, the Noble Lord had said that if he
were to legislate for Ireland, he would not be guided by the
maxims of Blackstone, but, in the language of Mr. Fox, " If
he had not conceded sufficient, he would concede more, and
proceed in this concession until he had satisfied the people of
Ireland." He (Mr. Maclean) said that this doctrine, if pushed
to the extremity, was sufficient subject matter of alarm, not
only to the Protestants of Ireland, but to the inhabitants of the
British empire generally. When using this language of Mr.
Fox, the Noble Lord had forgotten to state the answer of
Mr. Pitt, and the subsequent declaration of Mr. Fox him-
self, in reply to Mr. Pitt. He was obliged to the Noble Lord
for having characterised the doctrines of which he thus
boasted, as the generous, warm, but he could not help think-
ing, incautious language of Mr. Fox. But what had Mr. Fox
himself said in answer to Mr. Pitt ? He said that as the people
of Ireland had required the complete independence of the Legis-
lature, and had got it—so on that occasion, although he did not
approve of what he suggested to the House, still he would
grant it, because it would be gratifying to the people of Ire-
land. Did the Noble Lord tell the House that he did not
approve of this measure, but that he granted it because it
would be gratifying to the people of Ireland ? Did he draw
no distinction between the time when this incautious declara-
tion—as he called it—escaped the lips of Mr. Fox, and the
period when that declaration had fallen from the Noble Lord ?
Did the Noble Lord not remember that when Mr. Fox incau-
tiously produced that argument, there were two independent
legislatures—that Ireland had an independent legislature, and,
he was taunted with striking at the independence of Parlia-
ment, which he himself had guaranteed in 1782 ? Mr. Fox was
for concession ; but what were the concessions which he advo-
cated? They had already been granted by the Imperial Par-
liament. The concession of emancipation had already been
granted, and equality was so far established. The language
of the Noble Lord was a sufficient ground of alarm to
those who saw in this measure, not the mere grant of
municipal institutions to Ireland, for the purpose of giving
to its cities and towns the same privileges that they pos-
sessed in Great Britain, but in order to found, what the
great leader of the Catholics of Ireland told us these
corporations would become, normal schools of agitation.
The connection between the party of that Gentleman
and the Government had been repeatedly denied ; but had any
gentleman risen in his place and denied the declaration made
by the lion. Member for Tipperary to his constituents in
Ireland, that there had been formed between the party of
which he was a distinguished member, and the party of the
Noble Lord, an indissoluble connection, formed upon the ne-
cessity of Corporate Reform for Ireland ? But had the Noble
Lord and his colleagues taken their ground upon the neces-
sity of Corporate Reform for Ireland ? No ; they had taken
their stand upon the necessity of diminishing the Church Esta-
blishment in Ireland. That the Noble Lord had represented
as the keystone of the arch. Gentlemen on his side of the
House were taunted with accusing the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny, because he supported the Administration. It was not
they who accused him. Let him recollect what his friends said
of him. Let him refer to what the lion. Member for Bath
had said on the first night of the Session. There was a publi-
cation which bad recently been in the hands of every one, and
in which the most positive declarations were made as to that
Hon. Gentleman's Parliamentary conduct ; and as to the
views not only of himself, but of those who were kept in office
by the support of his party. What was the declaration of Mr.
Fergus O'Connor, who had formerly held a seat in that House,
and whose independence of conduct while in it reflected credit
upon hischaracter ? He taunted the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
with dealing treacherously by those with whom he was allied,
and said, " After the discussion on the acceptance of the
Lords' amendment on the Municipal Corporation Reform Bill,
I was sitting at the Westminster Club when you arrived. I
said to you, Well, you have sold us at last. You are as
mere a Whig as any of them.' Your reply was, Hold your
tongue, you fool. I only want the Whigs to do my dirty work,
and then I will kick them out as I did the Tories.' " The
same writer went on to quote the words of another Member of
that House, who said in conversation with him—" What are
we to do with this man? Upon my soul I have observed him
of late, and he is ruining us as well as the country." The
Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to argue that no measure of
Church Reform would satisfy the people of Ireland—that
they would be content with nothing less than the total aboli-
tion of the Church Establishment ; and he referred to a
pamphlet published by Mr. George Cornwall Lewis, who said
that the objection of the people of Ireland to the support of
the Established Church, was one of principle, and not of
degree, and that nothing short of perfect equality would
satisfy them or allay the prevailing discontent. In the year
1826, the Catholic hierarchy of Ireland, in conjunction with
the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, could not
have gone further than they did go, in protesting against any
intention to attack, by overt or insidious means, the integrity
of the Established Church in Ireland. They en published
a pastoral address to the clergy and laity of Ireland (and
among the signatures to it was that of John M'Halc), wherein
they declared that the Catholics of Ireland, far from claiming
any rights or titles to the forfeited lands or possessions, result-
ing from any rights or titles of their ancestors thereto, would
defend to the utmost of their power the settlement and ar-
rangement of property in that country as established by law.
What, however, was their conduct now? In a letter addressed
to the Lord Bishop of Exeter, a Roman Catholic Prelate, to
whom he had already alluded, Dr. M'Hale, made a very clear
avowal of very different principles. He remarked in that let-
ter that, while proclaiming unappeasable hostility to the
Church Establishment, he entertained none whatever to any
individualfor his honest religious opinions—that, after all the
evils it had heaped on his devoted country, it was some con-
solation- to reflect that the legislative axe had been laid to the
Church Establishment—( Hear, hear)—that the pruners of
the ecclesiastical vineyard had not read the Roman history
in vain—that already ten lofty plants, that which poisoned
by their influence the narcotic vegetation, had been laid
low, and that this doubtless was a prelude to a further
expurgation, which would be continued until, it was to be
hoped, not a vestige of the mighty nuisance would remain.
The same Prelate, addressing the Duke of Wellington, had
asked that noble individual—" Do you think you have any
force in binding men's consciences?"—(Hear)—and after-
wards had openly declared that " after paying the landlord his
rent, neither to parson, to proctor, to landlord,, nor to agent,
should he consent to pay, in the shape of tithe or any other
tax, a penny, which should go to the support of the greatest
nuisance in that or any other country." Was anything more
required to justify the alarm felt on his side of the House ?
Had not a proposition been made only the other night to drive
the Bishops from the House of Lords? And was that not an
attempt to " disturb and weaken" the Protestant Constitution
of this country as by law established? As to the Honourable
and Learned Member for Kilkenny, the proofs of his intention
were numerous and manifest. A very short time back, that
Hon. Gentleman had received a letter from the " Radicals of
Lambeth," containing 12 different articles of their political
creed. In his reply to them he had expressed his concurrence in
them severally, and among the rest, when he came to the pro-
posal of " no Established Church," his answer was " I agree."
Now he (Mr. Maclean) would confess with the utmost since-
rity that on some points he had great respect for the Radicals,
they went straightforward to their propositions. They
did not mince matters ; they were for fighting out the great
question of democracy and constitutional monarchy ; they held
out the language of honest men, and crouched to none in
their declarations. But when the advocates of democracy and
constitutional monarchy respectively were anxious to come to
a fair contest, there rushed between them a third party, not
agreeing with either, and prevented them from ascertaining
which of the two were the stronger. The Hon. Gentleman

favour to define them ?—(Hear, hear.) His Right Hon.
iend, the Member for Tamworth, had happily said that they
were meant to describe a something which had often been
Promised but never could be realised—a phantom that was ever
present, but still eluded the grasp—a thing which, like the
face of the rainbow, the Irish peasant was taught to chase from
day to day, to the great waste of his time, and that, like the
rainbow, was eternally changing and altering its shape, as-
loMing one hue this moment and another the next—
" Omnia transformant sese in miracula serum."
Zo-day it assumed the shape of a Municipal Corporation Bill
e---tvas employed for demanding Municipal Institutions for
Ireland, and to-morrow it took the form of Universal Suf-
frage, the Vote by Ballot, the subversion of the Irish Church,
or the abolition of the " blood-stained" impost of Tithes.
(Loud cheers.) This was not the first time by many
that "peace and justice" had been promised to Ireland.
Every voice that hailed the passing of the Catholic Emanci-
nation Bill, and his among the rest, held out that promise ;
but it would be useless now to inquire how it had been kept,
er in what way the means taken to fulfil it had been received.
The Noble Lord opposite talked of justice and peace for Ire-
land ; but did the people of England know in what that jus-
tice and peace consisted, or the price that was to be paid for
it ? Let the people of England know what was meant by this
" peace and justice," and_ then tell them what the price was
at which it was offered.—(Hear, hear.) In what he had said in
reference to the Dublin Association, and other parties, he had
endeavoured to avoid all personal allusion. His proposition
Was, that those societies had acquired a osition of great
strength and influence, and that their continuance was not
Only inconsistent with the declaration'of the Noble Lord, be-
cause the whole of their energies were directed to the destruc-
tion of that which he had pledged himself to support, but in-
jurious to the Government of the country. It was not just to-
wards the numerical minority of Ireland, to tolerate such As-
sociations. The numerical minority were the Protestants
of Ireland. When they approached the Throne and Par-
liament, with their well-founded complaints, they were re-
buked, if not insulted, by the Government.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) They might bear with this treatment, had they
experienced it at the hands of the leaders of their opponents ;
but when such was the conduct of his Majesty's Government
towards ttem, he should like to know what they were to ex-
Peet if they submitted to a measure which would place their
Corporate towns under the rule of the majority to whom they
were opposed ? Was it at all strange that there should exist
ie the minds of the Irish Protestants much apprehension with
respect to the object for which the Bill was introduced
Hear, bear.) They feared that if this measure were granted
st would be followed by the abolition of tithes and universal
suffrage, assisted by the vote by ballot, and checked and con-
trouled by the practice of auricular confession.—(Cheers.)
When they talked of justice and peace, and at the same time
insulted those who presumed to oppose the carrying of such
measures as these, all lie could say was, that he should not be
surprised soon to be told that it was an insult to the Roman
Catholics of Ireland to have either a Protestant Lord Chan-
cellor, or a Protestant King.—( Cheers.) This might be
terught a vain speculation ; but that it was not quite so vain as
Pen. Gentlemen might fancy, the extract of a speech of an
/ion. Gentleman, which he held in his hand, would show.
The speech delivered on the 19th of January, 1837, con-
teined the following passage :—." Who can see the result of
the last rumour, that Mr. Michael O'Loghlin is to be ap-
Pointed to the Mastership of the Rolls ? Should anything
happen to my Lord Plunket, which Heaven forbid, he would
flake an excellent Chancellor."--( Hear, hear.) He did not
helieve"that any more deserving person could have been ap-
pointed to the Rolls than Mr. O'Loghlin; and, therefore,
ne read the extract not with any view of reflecting on the
appointment of Mr. O'Loghlin, but to show that he was
Justified in glancing at the possibility of a revision of the Ro-
Irian Catholic Relief Bill. It was on those grounds that he
Stood forward to discharge a duty which he owed to that por-
tion of the inhabitants of the sister country who entertained a
strong opinion that this mnasure would be destructive of their
interests of the interests of the Established Church. For
these and other reasons he had been induced to bring forward
now a resolution similar to the one which he submitted for
consideration last year. The Noble Lord concluded by
ra°Ying, by way of instruction " that the Committee on the
Bill for the regulation of the Municipal Corporations of Ire-
'arid be empowered to make a provision for the abolition of
Such Corporations, and for such arrangemeuts as may be ne-
eSsary on their abolition for securing the efficient and impartial
administration of justice, and the peace and good government
of the cities and towns in Ireland."
The question having been put from the chair,
Mr. WARD said it was now just one year since the Noble
Lord brought forward a motion precisely similar to the pre-
sent, similar both in spirit and in words, resting upon the
lame grounds, supported by the same arguments—for the only
new argument which the Noble Lord had employed was that
founded upon the existence of the General Association--and
leading to the same results which would be produced by the
present motion if successful, namely, to extend and perpe-
wtTite that feeling of irritation amongst the Irish people
to ,jll the refusal of one branch of the Legislature
them justice had unfortunately caused. Was the House
newer to escape from this vicious circle when Ireland was eon
jeerned ? The people complained of the want of justice, and
ustice was to be denied to them because they complained.—
( Hear.) If they were silent, what would be the inference ?
Why, that they were indifferent to the matter in dis-
Pute—that they could not appreciate the value of mu-
nicipal institutions, and cared little for the boon which
the Le,gislature wished to force upon them. This was always
tine logic of the Conservative party ; silence and indifference
Vero always synonimous. In 1831 the people of England,
according to Mr. Croker, were indifferent to the Reform
Bill, because the three preceding years there had been few
Petitions for Reform ; nor was it until the table had groaned
Under the weight of petitions from every corner-of the em-
pire that they could be undeceived. What then was their
course ? Why, they exclaimed against the vehemence with
thick the claims of the people were expressed, and protested
tiP„eY would never yield anything upon compulsion.—( Cheers. )
„ney did yield, cawntithstauding, and just in time
But
preserve
"e country from revolutionary struggle. But now, un-
`..sught, unwarned, they were repeating the same experiment
°I Ireland; forgetting that it must lead inevitably to the
„44Me result. Yet surely much had passed, even since last
ssion, to convince them of their error. Was the Noble Lord
84tisfied himself with the results of his motion ? Had he
tPut an end to agitation in Ireland, by withholding municipal
istitutions ?—(Cheers.) What was the argument upon which
,te had now rested his case? Why, that Ireland was one vast
plrena of political agitation.—( Hear, hear.) That although
hotnormal schools of which the ouse had heard so much
haq session had not been established, Ireland was governed
belt ,by the Lord- Lieutenant, not by the British Parliament,
61t °Y a Parliament sitting in Dublin, under the name of the
4eneral Associaiion, debating, deliberating, forestallin the
l'lseassions of that House upon every point in which thenwel-
ts -et 0
Ireland was concerned ; levying contributions and ex-
-44141g its influence from the capital to the remotest corners
4,1%, the country.—( Opposition cries of " Hear.") He (Mr.
ard) admitted this to be an evil. But if the Association
Isere an evil, what had produced it 2—(Cheers.) It was
1h amicable
after the failure of two successive attempts to bring to
tt" arulerible adjustment the two questions in which the Irish
orPla took the deepest interest. The tithe question alone—
use as that impost undoubtedly was to the Irish people, and
telblY Odious as it had been rendered by the late proceedings
lhe Court of Exchequer, by which the highest powers of
e law had been vested in the hands of its most ignoble and
degradedbet
functionaries--had failed in producing it. It was
Lee Noble Lord's motion, negatived, indeed, in that House,
i 1 out into odious perfection elsewhere—( Much cheer:
the sponsorship of one of the Noble Lord's p
;041 associates—that was the parent of the Association. No
li,oner were the Irish people convinced that there was a
WII:tY here determined to withhold from them the rights of
owlets they saw Englishmen and Scotchmen in the tranquil
than
upon the insulting plea of national incompetency,
1 they determined to avail themselves of every resource
the law admitted of in order to obtain their rights from
;,os.°o legislature of their country. —( Cheers.) They combined
.this purpose. There was nothing illegal in this combi-
Teton. Their was no law under which the sittings of the
eseneral Association could be interfered with or suspended :
,!Members simply exercised that same right which was exer-
sed in various ways by almost every one of those whom he
tr,s then addressing. The Conservatives, in 1831, were en-
titled to protest against political unions; they did not then
wi,?°fl to them. But now that they had covered the land
!s_ (t their Conservative Clubs and Conservative operative as-
;euciations—( Laughter and cheers)—with their presidents, and
ercre.taries, and treasurers, and public discussions duly regis-
thee4 by the Conservative press, who saw in them nothing but
tie_ purest effusions of patriotism, with what face could they
°,,°lncean Association which differed from their own simply
but'uls! that it represented the feelings not of a few hundreds,
spa, °.l some millions of their fellow-countrymen ? What
et sr it es s
seas gave to the Dublin Association its national
01."
of ten
but the existence of grievances which nine Irishmen
the
bad an interest in removing? Redress the grievance
feaessu:etv_ .Association falls to the ground—though this, be
seek to 4s the last mode in which gentlemen opposite would
rat s aluppress it. The Noble Lord had said that the corpo-
iknai n .f
established, would be in fact so many batteries
here nst the Church - and the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
vsbetnier___CuMberland had urged this argument with still greater.
or of ,t7cee
.Talk not to me of Municipal Institutions, he said,
Yoe rase
claims of the Irish people to local government. I tell
The ra. the Protestant Church is upon the verge of ruin.
tee, L. prey of the people of Ireland are Catholics : I enter-
kill Just dread of Popery and Catholic domination, and I
tea;;,e.Yer assent to any measure by which the hands of that
1,14,..nty can be strengthened.—(Opposition cries of" Hear.")
had"bWaat Was this but to say, that because one act of injustice
slat cheers!"ommitted, injustice must be perpetual ?—(Ministe-
hos.) He (Mr. Ward) admired the zeal of the Right
fear Baronet, but he lamented his indiscretion. He
P°Pulae that the Prutestaet Church was not sufficiently
soul In Ireland to support the additional odium which
keyedthus be . . . end cast upon it. Ordinary minds would
eavoured to
lice she , disconnect the two questions, and to cen-
Seeleo t_ran people that it was not from motives of religious
but the ~."tt the reform of their Corporations was refused ;
t zaight
them f . on. Baronet scorned such subterfuges. He
theist, , airle that it was as Catholics that he mistrusted of the and would exclude them now and for ever from the pale
were denriietr
toConstitution, by denying to them rights which
vitlter Part of thiles,°?arn whatever might be his creed, in any
ts policy of neo isritish empire. But this, he repeated,
_was
tee nettle as a r 111: .Cientlemen opposite. They meant to fight
st(l raised agaio! IgpeuS question. The no-Popery cry was to
temned, and the' t"
prejudices of the ignorant were to be in-
dza to differ
fruiost odious imputations cast upon all who yen-
Cheer°s) them in the discharge of their political
Pe*po
C had the la- If this were not their intention, for what tessaoth„,,
read igbt Honourable Baronet the Member for
see", at that table, the other night, the oath taken

concluded by repeating his conviction of the fatal tendency of
the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, and his intention to
oppose it.
Mr. R. M. BELLEW said that the main objection urged
to the present Bill was, that it endangered the Established
Church. That argument had been formerly urged against
emancipation, and against reform.--( Hear, hoar.) In point
of fact, the principle of the proposed Bill--namely, that of
giving power to the people—had been conceded by those two
,measures ; and it was idle now to talk of preventing the
people of Ireland from obtaining perfect equality in every re-
spect.—( Hear hear.) The influence to be exercised by the
Roman Catholics under this measure would be given them,
not as Roman Catholics, but as persons having the required
qualification. There never was a period in which the people
of Ireland were more united, and in which their demands were
more reasonable than the present.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman then proceeded to pass a high eulogium on the
government of Lord Mulgrave in Ireland.
Mr. YOUNG (of Cavan) said that the great objection of
the Protestants to the proposed measure was to be found in
the uses to which they had reason to apprehend the corpora-
tions might be turned. They heard the Hon. and Learned
Member for Kilkenny say, " Grant me these corporations,
and I will do anything ;" and such a declaration on his part
was naturally calculated to excite alarm and suspicion in their
minds. They were the constant objects of the abuse of the
party to which that Hon. and Learned Gentleman belonged.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded with expressing his intention
of opposing the measure.
Mr. C. BULLER said, municipal institutions were the
best legacy which the Romans had left to the nations they
conquered, and in the middle ages they were the fastnesses
of civilization. By giving the people municipal institutions,
you taught them to manage their own affairs, and they could
do so better than a central government. If it were desired
to make the people respect the law, there was no mode so
effectual for doing so as to make them the administrators
of it. For his part he thought the establishment of the
little republics, and normal schools for agitation, proposed
by the Bill, would afford the best possible apprenticeship
for the exercise of political rights.--( Hear, hear.) If
such were the general advantages of municipal institutions,
in what country were they wanted more than in Ireland ?
Was it not desirable to arouse the industrial energies of
the Irish, and to teach them to depend upon their own exer-
tions ? Were not the Irish a people whose feelings it was ne-
cessary to conciliate to the administration of justice ? By
making them administrators of the law, would they not become
its auxiliaries, instead of being, as they too often were, its op-
ponents ? Let it be remembered that the Irish had a repre-
sentative Government. Nobody thought of depriving them of
the elective franchise. Would it not, then, be acting a wise
part to fit them for the discharge of political duties, by bringing
them into friendly contact with each other in the discussion of
matters of local interest ? The plan suggested by the Noble
Lord the Member for Lancashire would leave only a few subor-
dinate offices—such as Commissioners of Paving Boards—
open to public competition, and it was not likely that
respectable men would become candidates for them ; whereas
the offices of Mayor and Aldermen would be objects of
ambition to respectable citizens.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The
present Government governed by the Roman Catholic
majority, and the last governed by the Orange minority.
There could be little doubt that at first all Protestants would
be turned out of municipal offices ; but the majority would
soon get to squabbling among themselves, as all majorities did,
and then the Protestants would become of importance, inas-
much as they would be able to turn the scale. No better plan
could be devised for preventing the formation of great parties,
than setting the people discussing all sorts of minor questions.
He supported the Bill, because he believed it would raise an
effectual barrier against the influence of demagogues and the
Roman Catholic priests. He understood his Majesty's Mi-
nisters—( A laugh)--they declared their conviction that the
establishment of municipal institutions was a boon which Ire-
land merited, and that they were determined to give it to her.
They had stated that they would stand or fall by that question.
That was honest and patriotic conduct, which merited the sup-
port,of every real Reformer. Now he wanted to know the Right
Hon. Baronet's intentions equally well. By what system of
Irish policy was he prepared to stand ? If he should come into
office on such a principle as that to which he had just alluded, it
was to be hoped that the Irish people would resist his govern-
ment. He for one would say, that his approbation of the
means, and the extent of their resistance, would depend on
nothing but their success.—( Cheers from the Irish Members. )
The Irish people would possess the sympathy of every liberal
mind throughout the civilised world. Let the Right Hon.
Baronet recollect that before such a principle the strong mind
of the Duke of Wellington quailed. If the Noble Duke would
not maintain the exclusive system at the hazard of civil war,
was the Right Hon. Baronet prepared to do it ?—(Hear.)
Ho thought far too highly of the Right Hon. Baronet to sup.
pose that he contemplated the atrocity of involving this coun-
try in a civil war, in oisaler to keep up the Church Establish-
ment : but he believed that the Right Hon. Baronet had not
well considered the consequences of the measures he was now
pursuing. He had not considered that the only course which,
as an honest man, he could take, if he turned out the present
Ministers on this questions was to come forward, and introduce
precisely a similar measure.
Mr. P. BOR. THWICK said that the question was not
what Parliament had done at a former period, but what it was
necessary to do now ? He wished the question would come
before the people of England to-night, and he would abide by
the people of England's decision. Let Hon. Members oppo-
site appeal, if they dared, to the constituency of England. If
he were to shelter himself under the wings of the Noble Lord
who introduced this debate, he might admit that the present
municipal corporal ions were an abuse ; and lie might ask, was
it the way to remedy them to put power into the hands of the
opposing. faction ?—he might ask, if you wish to tranquillise
Ireland, is it the way to succeed to place in actual collision
contending factions ? Would the collision which might take
place be attended with the pacification of Ireland ? They
asked for justice to Ireland—justice equal to that which had
been already granted to England and Scotland. Had they
yet done justice to England—had they yet done justice to
Scotland? What was the justice which was demanded ?
Was it the heathen goddess, with blinded eyes and equal
scales ; or was it the halt and haggard beldame, whose
sword had but one edge, and whose measure was ini-
quity? If he thought this measure calculated to injure
the Protestant Establishment in Ireland, he should oppose it
on that ground only; but he thought there were sufficiently
solid grounds for opposing it on its own merits ; and not from
co-relative arguments. The contest now was one of demo-
cracy against monarchy—infidelity, not individual, but national,
against religion. Not whether liberty should remain, but
whether our mixed Constitution should continue at all. Such
being the state of the question, he had but one course to pur-
sue, and that was, to vote with the Noble Lord who had to-
night opened the debate.
Mr. POULTER held the claim of Ireland to Municipal
Corporation to be totally unanswerable; and he deeply re-
gretted that the course of argument pursued last year was to
be pursued again on the presnet occasion. Ile would admit
that there were certain proceedings in towns which could be
performed without Municipal institutions ; but that argument
fell short of the real principle of these national claims. These
institutions formed an important branch of the education of the
people of Ireland. The question was not a political one; for
neither King nor Minister could nominate a Mayor or create a
Town Councillor. Reference had been made to some strong
resolutions which had been passed in Dublin. Although he
deeply regretted those resolutions, he looked upon them as
having contemplated nothing like an appeal to force, or
an appeal to arms.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
_conceived
that they contemplated a legislative reeognition by this coun-
try. The same principle of construction which was applied to
the coronation oath might be applied to the oath taken by
Hon. Members. On the discussion of the King's Coronation
Oath, Lord Somers said :—" It is said we are going about to
alter the Constitution of the Church. Tho Ugh the Consti-
tution be as good as possible for the present time, none can 'be
good at all times ; therefore I am for the word may,' and
that will be a remedy at all times.". Polexfen said--." We
are all agreed, and I hope ever shall he, to support the Pro-
testant religion established by law • 'we desire to consider
whether the latter word should be added or not. There is no
manner of reason against it : we , all agree ,in substance,
But if, by the wisdom of the nation, it shall, Y.)e"thought fit, to
alter it, we are at liberty to do it." An immense majority of
the House was prepared to resist the principle of instalments
—(llear, hear)—but at the same time that same majority
would resist any thing like spoliation of our institutions—
( Hear, hear)—and it wis injustice on the part .of Hon. Mem-
bers opposite to attribute such intentions to them. He advo-
cated the Bill, but at the same time was most ready to main-
the supremacy of the law, and those means which would best
contribute to the tranquillity of the.country, and the protection
of property.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. TE NNE NT should not wish, for the amusement of
the Hon. Member for Liskeard, to play the part of Hamlet
leaving out the court and Ophelia. "He should at once apply
himself to the question before the House, and in doing so,
should first advert to two charges, which had been brought for-
ward—the one by the Hon. Member for St. Alban's ; that
Hon. gentlemen on his (Mr. Tennent's) side of the House re-
fused to the people of Ireland municipal government, from
motives of religious intolerance, because the majority of the
people were Catholics ; the other by the Hon. Member for
Louth—that they offered an insult to Ireland by refusing to
her the same self-government which they had extended to
England and Scotland. He denied both of those charges.
The charge of religious intolerance was only founded on the
artifice of those who, having been guilty of political treachery,
sought to place themselves behind the shield of religious in-
tolerance. In reply to the second charge, he would say, that
the amendment of the Noble Lord threw open the corporations,
and gave to the people of Ireland the power of self-govern-
ment, and there was not a single respectable householder to
whom it would not give a vote in municipal corporations.
He admitted that the Roman Catholic religion was a serious
evil—that it was a mysterious symbol of combination, lay and
secular.. The feelings of the people of Ireland were kept
fixed on this question, only by mixing up with it the more ex-
citing topic of Tithes.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for
Kilkenny had said last session that if this Bill were rejected,
the table would groan under the petitions which would be
presented to it. Where was the effect of his predictions? It
was only to be found in the existence of the General Associa-
tion, which devoted all its time to the question of the Church,
and Tithes, and to quarrels and reconciliations between indi-
viduals. It was rather a remarkable fact, that of the number
of members who had been received into that Association be-
tween the 27th of July 1836, and the 19th of Jan., 1837, the
total number being 2,945 members, only 263 were Protes-
tants—(Cheers)—and of these 84 were inhabitants of Lon-
don.—(Loud cheers.) Of the remaining Roman Catholics,
600 were bishops, and clergymen of the Church of Rome, so
that upon an average there were two Roman Catholic ler-
gymen to one Protestant layman.—(Loud cheers.) The Re-
port of the Commissioners described the existing corporations

as being objectionable and suspected; and yet it was those
very Corporations that the, Noble Lord (J. Russell) now pro-
posed to restore.—( Cries of " No, no.") The Hon. Member
then complained of the manner in which the prerogative of
mercy had been exercised in Ireland, for the mere purpose of
acquiring a bad popularity, and referred to the case of " Deni-
son v. Magrath," tried at the summer assizes for Dundalk. It
was a criminal information for sending a challenge, and was
accompanied with some aggravating circumstances ; and the
defendant, after conviction, refused even to apologise for his
conduct. His sentence was one month's imprisonment, with a
fine of ea, and sureties to keep the peace. The fine was,
however, remitted, on the interposition of the Hon. Member
for Louth, and he was set at large to laugh at the Court of
King's Bench and its jurisdiction.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Was the House prepared to receive the announcement that
since July last the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had liberated no
less than 470 convicted criminals, without reference to the
Judges who tried them ?—( Cheers). Ile also understood that
the orders for the discharge of several of these prisoners had
not even as yet been dispatched from the Castle, though the
gaols had been delivered and the felons were at large. He
would ask whether such was the healthy state of society
of Ireland, that such proceedings would not increase the
democratic power there ? and whether the present was so well
organised a Government that the House would consent to in-
crease its patronage ? The present measure, like every other
proposed by the present Government, went to increase the
number of offices, and consequently the patronage of them,
they being, as a matter of course, in their gift. Would there
not be Rccorderships to be given away in every corporation in
Ireland ? Were there not police magistrates and revising
barristers to be appointed for every town within the operation
of the Bill ?—( Hear. ) But let the House look to the mode
in which the legal appointments had been made—( Cheers)--
and he would ask whether it would consent to give the Go-
vernment the means of effecting further abuses in this respect ?
—( Cheers.) If the present state of things were allowed to
go on, there would be no necessity to extend to Ireland the
principle so strongly contended for by the Hon. Member for
Bath to be introduced into this country—namely, vote by bal-
lot ; for he would assert there would not be very soon a person
with a roof over his head, who would not be in possession of
the franchise. When persons were nominated to these law
appointments who were not legally capacitated to hold them,
bet merely in consequence of their being political partisans;
what effect must it have on the minds of the people ? How
must they feel when they saw, that in order to maintain their
political ascendancy, the Government had destroyed the impar-
tiality of justice?--( Hear.) He knew that the people were dis-
satisfied with the administration of justice, not only in these
minor courts, but in the higher tribunals of the country, where
persons were appointed to offices who entertained strong feel-
ings of party spirit, and for political purposes. These ap-
pointments were not entitled to receive the confidence of the
nation, while the country was deprived of the services of men
in every way their superiors.—(hear.) Now, as regarded
the abuse of legal patronage in Ireland, he would refer to
what had taken place as to the appointment of a gentleman
to fill the office of Accountant-General to the Court of Chan-
cery, a situation which required in the holder of it great ex-
perience, and a great degree of accurate knowledge in the
details of the business-of that Court ; but a youthful barrister
had been appointed, of no standing in his profession, whose
talents had not been developed, or were at least unknown,
until selected to fill this office; but in consequence of his
being the brother of an eminent Irish solicitor. He ( Mr. Ten-
nent) respected that gentleman, but the question involved in
the appointment was, that of political influence. A Mr. Davis
had discharged the duties of the office in a most efficient man-
ner for some time, and his claim to fill it was supported by
the Masters in Chancery, by other high authorities, and a
memorial was signed in his favour by 600 solicitors re-
presenting the suitors in that Court; but unfortunately his
friends were not in power, he had no political influence, and
the consequence was that a youthful barrister was appointed in
consequence of his being a brother of a solicitor professing
liberal opinions. The whole conduct of the Irish Government
was such, as regarded the appointments in its patronage, as to
inspire that country with alarm. There were many circum-
stances which, though trifling in themselves, were galling to
the people, and, as a whole, they tended to aggravate the dis-
content. Never, in the most palmy days of Protestant ascen-
dancy, had any Government ever so exercised its patronage for
party purposes as had the present. Considering what the
present constitutions of the Corporations of Ireland were, and
that the present Bill would only go to transfer power to a
party which was more numerous and more formidable, and
that without any security being offered, that there would be
less abuse than existed at present, he called upon the house not
to rush into the adoption of the reckless course proposed to
them by his Majesty's Government.—( Hear.) He trusted it
would examine the propositions of the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Tamworth, and that of the Noble Lord the
Member for South Lancashire (Lord F. Egerton), because
they were calculated eminently to effect those desirable objects
--the impartial administration of justice, and the peace and
good government of towns in Ireland.—( Cheers.)
Lord MO RPETH--When I last addressed the House, I
submitted it to the indulgence of the House, that when indi-
vidual charges arc brought forward, it is always impossible at
the moment to be prepared with the particular answer without
an opportunity of consulting the official documents on the sub-
ject ; but 1 have found in every case, after I have had the op-
portunity of consulting those official documents—the source of
authentic information—that the colouring which has been put
upon the case of the parties bringing the charge has been alto-
gether stripped off, and a satisfactory answer afforded. I en-
deavoured to the best of my ability to travel through most of
the charges which were brought forward on the last discus-
sion by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bandon. There
was one case particularly alluded to, that of Maguire,
who was liberated by the Lord Lieutenant on his visit
of inspection to the gaol of Cavan, the man being impri-
soned on a charge of shooting at a revenue officer, a
charge which naturally appeared to the House to be one of
considerable magnitude. Now it appeared by a memorial to
the Lord-Lieutenant in favour of the prisoner, signed by ma-
gistrates of all parties—( Hear, hear)—that it had clearly
been shown on the trial, in the opinion of the magistrates,
that the shot was not fired with malicious intent, but out of
mere bravado—(Oh, oh, from the Opposition benches)—out
of mere bravado, I repeat ; for it was proved on the trial that
the boat from which the prisoner fired the shot was at the time
about three-quarters of a mile from the shore on which the re-
venue officer stood.—(Great laughter and cheers.) The fair
inference, therefore, was, that the attempt was not so grossly
malicious as the sneers of Ilyyt. Members opposite would seem
to infer. Upon this memorial. being .forwarded to the Lord-
Lieutenant, a correspondence took place between the Lord-
Lieutenant and Baron Pennefather, who presided at the trial,
so far has it been from the fact that in any case of serious
magnitude the Lord-Lieutenant has acted without having pre-
viously the fullest and most unrestrained communication with
the judges.--(Hear, hear.) The result of the corres-
pondence was, that Baron Pennefather, while he did not
recede from his original opinion, in the course of his
correspondence declared that it was a point for the consi-
deration of the Lord-Lieutenant, and the sentence was then
commuted from transportation for seven years into impri-
sonment for two. This, however, was not the point of
quarrel set up by the Hon. and Learned Sergeant, but
the subsequent liberation of the man. That liberation took
place in consequence of the unanimous representation of the
gaoler, the sub-gaoler, and the local inspector.—(Laughter
from the Opposition.) On what grounds ? Not because the
prisoner had behaved well in his prisons but because these par-
ties declared that they could not answer for the man's life if
lie were longer confined.—( Cheers.) The particulars of the
case of Armstrong I have not at the moment by me, and I
therefore cannot well enter into the details of the outrage on
his ditch, which has been so eloquently dwelt upon—( A
laugh)—but I must say, I cannot consider this a case of suffi-
cient magnitude to be lugged in head and shoulders in a de-
bate upon the question whether Corporate Reform shall or
shall not be given to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) With respect
to the number of prisoners liberated by the Eord Lieutenant,
I shall, with the leave of the Honourable and Learned
Member, wait for the returns moved for by the Honourable
and -Learned Sergeant before Igo into the point. I have
no wish to make any concealment on the subject—( Hear,
hear)—end indeed, with the view of making the returns
full and complete, I shall move, that in addition to the returns
required by the Hon. and Learned Sergeant, there be returns
made dell the memorials presented to the Lord Lieutenant in
favour of prisoners. Nothing has been said by the Hon. and
Learned Member who last spoke to impugn the chief grounds
on which we rest to test the policy of the measures which the
Government of Ireland have pursued—namely, the general de-
crease of crime in that country. The Noble Member for
South Lancashire has told us he has advices from Tipperary,
not corresponding with the statements we have made on the
subject. All I can say is, that neither I nor my Noble
Friend near me kayo quoted any thing but the official docu-
ments, and have relied on no more suspicious information than
the charges of the Juries at Assizes, and of Assistant Bar-
risters at Quarter Sessions. But the Hon. and Learned
Member for Belfast wishes to renew the attack commenced by
the Hon. and Learned Sergeant on the subject of the rules
laid down for setting aside Jurors in criminal cases. The ex-
pressions used by the Hon. and Learned Sergeant arc these.
I should not go into the subject, but that I have been dragged
ipto it. The Hon. and Learned Sergeant says, "He should
now mention a matter of fact illustrative of the
practice, and it was ono which he thought would oc-
casion some surprise in the minds of Englishmen.--( Hear.)
It was the case of a Protestant family, named Carter, resident
in the Queen's county ; they were tenants of Lord Marybo-
rough, and, at the time to which he referred, were in posses-
sion of a piece of land, for which they paid rent, and to which
they were justly entitled. They proceeded to fence it tn. An
attack was made upon them, and one of those poor men was so
severely beaten that he lost his senses, and he believed was at
present the inmate of a lunatic asylum. The same parties beat
the elder Carter, and put him to death. They were indicted
for murder. One of the parties known, or at least very gene-
rally believed, to have been assisting in the perpetration of this
crime, openly, in the noon-day, was giving his assistance to
the prisoners respecting their challenges of the jurors ; but the
Crown no longer exercised its privilege of putting by, add of
course there was no verdict." In answer to this Ido not wish
to rely upon any other document than a letter which I will read
read from the gentleman who conducted the case for the Crown,
Mr. Tickell, whose name is synonimous with the highest inte-
grity and honour, and whose testimony will perhaps be the
more readily received by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, from the
circumstance that Mr. Tickell is by no means enthusiastic in
his attachment to the existing Government._-( Hear.) Mr.
Tickell's letter runs thus :

" 10, Clare•street, Feb. 11, 1837.
" Dear Master of the Rolls—l have just read the report
of Jackson's speech, to which you referred me in your notes
I never before heard the slightest imputation against Mr. Dil-
lon (the person to whom I presume be alludes as one who was
generally believed to have been a participator in Carter's mur-

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 1837.