The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-14 00:00:00

CHURCH-RATES.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from indi-
viduals of all denominations residing at Exeter, praying
their Lordships to give the Bill for the abolition of
Church-rates introduced by his Majesty's Government into
the House of Parliament a favourable reception, and after
all due consideration, to pass it into a law.—(Hear, hear.)
The NOBLE DUKE then presented petitions in favour
of the Ministerial plan for the abolition of Church-
rates, from Halifax, Bolton-le-Moor, Leeds, Somerset,
Perth, and from the Archdeaconry of Leicester.
Lord H ATHERTON presented three petitions from
the borough of Stroud, in favour of the measure.
Lord MELBOURNE presented petitions from Melton-
Mowbray, Newton, and another place, in favour of the
abolition of Church-rates.
The Mutiny Bill, the Milhank Penitentiary Bill, and
other Bills, brought up from the Commons, were read a
first time.

MARINE FORCE IN SPAIN.
Lord ALVANLEY postponed the question with respec
.o our Marine Force in Spain until Monday.
Their Lordships thin adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIE 13.
The SPEAKER took the Chair to-day five minutes before
Four o'clock.

LONGFORD ELECTION.

.Lord CLIVE informed the House that the Committee
on the Longford Election met this morning, but in conse-
quence of the absence of Mr. Horsman, the Committee
adjourned.
Dr. James Johnstone was then called to the Bar, and
informed the House that the health of the Hon. Member
was in so precarious a state, that he did not think he
would be enabled to attend the Committee with safety for
a month.
On the motion of Lord CLIVE, the Hon. Member was
excused from further attendance, and the Committee or-
dered to proceed without him.
Messengers from the Courts of Chancery and Bank-
ruptcy presented returns.
On the motion of Air. W. MILES, the Clapton (So-
merset) Enclosure Bill was read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed.
On the motion of Sir W. GE ARY, the Seven Oaks
and Woodgate Road Bill, was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Mr. LAMBTON, the Lobley Hill

Road Bill was read a third time and passed.
Sir J. GRAHAM presented a petition against the Car•
lisle and Maryport Railway Bill.
GLASGOW AND PAISLEY RAILWAY.

Lord W. BENTINCK presented a petition from the
Lord Provost of Glasgow, against the Glasgow and Paisley
Railway Bill.
LEEDS WATER-WORKS BILL.

Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a petition from the
Earl of Wexburgh and the Earl of Cawdor against the
Leeds Water Works Bill. The Hon. Baronet also pre.
sented a petition against the Barnsley Waterworks Bill.
BRIGHTON AND NEWHAVEN RAILWAY.
Sir C. BLUNT presented petitions from the inhabi-
tants of Folkeston and Hyde in favour of the Brighton and
Newhaven Railway.
Major BEAUCLERK presented petitions from the
landowners of Lewes and Newhaven, against Stevenson's

Brighton Railway Line.
Mr. WILKS brought up the report of the Committee
on Becker's Naturalization Bill, Bernard Meettes' Natu-
ralization Bill, and Henry Anthony Mettees Naturalization
Bill.
The Bills were then severally read a third time and
passed.
LONDON AND BRIGHTON RAILWAY
(STEVENSON'S LINE.)

Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition, complaining
that the Standing Orders' Committee had been grossly im-
posed upon by the agents on behalf of Stevenson's Brighton
Line, and praying for an investigation.
Mr. CU RTEIS rose to call the attention of the House
to a petition presented by him from Mr. James Mills, and
which had been printed with the Votes of that day.
It related to the London and Brighton Railway, (Steven-
son's line) and Mr. Mills had pledge.d his veracity to prove
that there were 37 variations between the sections deposited
with the Clerk of the Peace for the county of Surrey, and
.

those deposited in the Private Bill Office. The petition
presented a short time since to that House al-
leged that there were not less than 131 material
variations, all of which were contrary to the regulations of
the Standing Orders of that House. He did not bring the
matter forward for any party or private purpose, but merely
because it appeared to him to be a breach of the privileges
of that House. He thought the parties who had given
false evidence before the Committee would not get
more than their due if they were committed to New-
gate for the rest of the Sessions. He believed that
be had a case where he could prove that false evidence had
been given before the Committee in no less than 146 in-
stances ; and that being the fact, he trusted the House
would grant him a Select Committee for the purpose of having
the truth of the statements in Mr. Mills' petition ascertained.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE seconded the motion for the Se-
lect Committee.

Mr. G. PALMER, though he thought it was too late to
throw out Stevenson's line, would vote for the Comtitlittee.

.... _
Sir G. STRICKLAND thought if the allegations ofthe
petitions were true, it would be impossible for the House to
pass the matter over in silence.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL did not think the House
could with any justice refuse the appointment of a Com-
mittee.

Mr. C. BARCLAY would support the appointment of
a Committee. He should make no opposition to the Com-
mittee, as the object would be to discover who were the
guilty parties.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—The only argument he had
heard against the Committee was, that it would prevent the
Bill going forward, to the injury of other parties. With
that, it appeared to him, the House had nothing to do. The
question was, whether or not a fraud had been committed
on the House, and as yet he had heard no denial of the al-
legations contained in the petition. If the House en-
tertained a proper regard for its character or dignity, it
should grant the Committee. _ _ _

Mr. W. PATTEN thought the House should look
with great suspicion upon a petition put forward by a rival
engineer, because one of the Sub-Committees had investi-
gated his own line a little too strictly. It appeared to him
that there was a combination among all parties to throw
opposition in the way of Stephenson's line, and if the
present petition was entertained the same thing would
occur upon every line.
Captain PEC HELL said, if the House was satisfied
that it had been imposed upon it by false statements, it
ought at once to grant the Committee. Ho could not
see how the House could refuse to grant the Committee
that had been asked.

Mr. GREENE supported the motion for the Committee.
Lord GEORGE LENNOX said that if the Hon.
Member for Sussex did not wish to prejudice Steven-
son's line, the better way would be for him to wait
until the Committee who were sitting on those lines
had decided which was the best. This was exactly
the same case which the Honourable Member had
brought forward a few days ago, only it was dressed
in a new garb, and he trusted the House would not ac-
cede to the motion.

Mr. GORI N G contended that there was no direct charge

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt
that he would be betraying his duty if he were to give
answers to such questions put in such a manner ; an answer,
in the present state of affairs, might be extremely preju-
dicial.
Mr. ROBINSON begged leave to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman when any distribution of the Deccan prize money
might be expected, and whether there would be any, diffe-
rence between the actual and the constructive capital ?
'The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
question of distribution rested with the Commissioners,
and not with him. From a report he had received from
them, he found that the question rested on the sale of a
valuable jewel, which was advertised for public sale in July
next. It also waited for the decision of a cause depending
in the courts at Bengal ; but he trusted the matter would
not be much longer delayed.
Sir R. BATESON wished to ask whether the Govern-
ment had considered the claims of the Synod of Ulster to
the increase of the Regizon Domon. By raising it they
would only be doing justice to the North of Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, as we
understood, said the subject was still under consideration,
and until something definitive was determimed on, he
must decline answering the question of the Hon. Baronet.
Sir R. BATESON said he would, for the purpose of
knowing what the intentions of the Government were,
and if they did not come up to his wishes and expectations,
he should call the attention of the House to the subject
by a specific motion.
NEWSPAPERS.
Mr. ROEBUCK then proceeded with his motion.
When he was interrupted he had stated to the House that
it was his intention to move for a Select Committee to en-
quire into the propriety of repealing altogether the Stamp
Duties on Newspapers.—( Hear, hear.) He made
this motion upon the ground, and that only,
that the alteration of the Stamp Duty on Newspapers was
an obstacle to education. In his opinion, it was the duty
of the State and the House to raise the funds required
by the country in a manner that would bear as little
as possible on its great interests. In the rank of its
great interests he placed the education of the people.
The mass of the community took a much larger ex-
tent, and had a much greater influence upon political
subjects at the present moment, than they had at any
other period. Such being the case, in his (Mr. R.'s) opi-
uion it became the more necessary that their education
should be as little obstructed as possible, and it behoved a
Liberal Government to do all in their power to fur-
ther so desirable an object. The great mass
of the community were desirous, and most natu-
rally so, to discuss the concerns of the people, whether
social or political. Now what had the present Liberal Go-
vernment done—had they done all that was calculated
to remove every obstruction from education ? No,
but for no fiscal purpose whatever last year, when
they took off a great part of the duty on Newspapers,
they left an obstruction still to the progress of edu-
cation. It was acknowledged by the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government in that House, that the tax
that still remained was retained for no fiscal purpose ; but
perhaps it had been kept on to maintain some particular mo-
nopoly. The London newspapers were at the present moment
in his opinion a monopoly, and perhaps it might be re-
tained to keep that up. Now his object was to do away
with all monopoly, and afford to those resident in the coun-
try a knowledge of their local affairs. After what had been
said in that House by those composing the Government, he
should be surprised if the Chancellor of the Exchequer was
to get up, and say he retained the tax for fiscal purposes.
Even the leader of the Tories in the other House asked
why the paltry penny was retained. It could never do the
Budget any good. It seemed as if it was retained for the
mere purpose of bringing the Government into contempt.
He wanted that every small town in the country, as
in America, should have its own newspaper—(Hear)—
and then in a very short time we would have a good and
well educated population. Upon these considerations he
moved, without further preface, " That the House resolve
itself into a Committee to consider the propriety of totally
abolishing the Tax on Newspapers."
Mr. WAKLEY seconded the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
whoever heard the Hon. Member would suppose the tax
had been retained by the Government for some odious pur-
pose of their own. Such was not the case—they had not
meddled with these'taxes, except to reduce them to the
penny, as they had been called upon to do by the
motion of the Honourable Member for Lincoln.--(Hear.)
When that motion came on he pledged himself on the ques-
tion, and he left the House to say whether he had not re-
deemed that pledge in the last session ?—( Hear, hear.)
In the state of the finances of the country, if he was
called upon to make a reduction in taxation, it would not
be on newspapers he would propose it, because by the
free circulation of newspapers through the Post-office
they obtained a great boon for the small tax they
were called upon to pay. They had had the expe-
rience of six months of the reduction in the half year
ending sth April, 1836, the number of newspapers stamped
was 14,874,000. In the first half-year during which his
experiment had been tried that number rose from 14,874,000
to 21,300,000, which spewed a vast increase, and therefore
if the circulation of newspapers was a benefit, the Hon. Mem-
ber ought to give him credit for the success of his measure.
When the Hon. Gentleman underrated the value of the
experiment which bad been made, he must call his atten-
tion to the following facts, to show the progress which had
been made :—ln the first quarter of the half year in which
the reduction of duty had taken place the number of stamps
was 8,302,000 ; and in the second quarter, endinE sth

made in the petition. There was a general assertion that April last, they amounted to no less than 13,000,000.
the Standing Orders had not been complied with, but in So that not only was there a vast increase as comparing
that respect the petitioner stood himself in exactly the the last half year with that which had preceded it, but in
same position, as the agents for his line had not complied comparing the two quarters of the last half year sepa-
with the Standing Orders, although they stated before the rately, the numbers rose from 8,000,000 to 13,000,000.
Sub-Committee that they had done so. Take a further proof of what was going on,
if they al-
Sir E. CODRINGTON thought the Bill should be lowed the present system to continue :—He found that
thrown out altogether, as the House had been most grossly in the last quarter of the last half year (as he before
imposed upon. stated) the number of Newspaper Stamps amounted to
Mr. CURTEIS replied ;he regretted being obliged to 13,000,000. In the lass half year previous to the reduc-
tive the House the trouble of dividing, but he felt it his tion of the Stamp-duty the number of stamps for the whole
duty to persevere in his motion. of Great Britain was 14,000,000 and odd ; so that the
The SPEAKER said the House was informed that the number of stamps in the quarter ending April, 1837, was
promoters of lines of railroads to Brighton had entered into within 1,000,000 of what it was for six months ending in
an agreement that they should take no advantage of any April last year. Would not, then, the Hon. Gentleman
lapse in the compliance with the Standing Orders. From admit these figures demonstrated a most beneficial result
his own experience he would advise the House to be very from the operation of the present Act ? But then the
cautious in interfering with Bills which had been read a Honourable Gentleman said, " Oh, but you have put
second time, and no complaint made before the Sub-Corn- down the smuggled stamps." Now that was precisely
mittee ; the parties now complaining being then fully aware the object which he had in view. It was his object
of the objections now made. to protect the capitalist from being undersold. But
Mr. CURTEIS would then move for a Committee to he should be sorry if it were imagined that the financial
enquire whether any false evidence had been given before view was the only one which he took or which guided him,
the Standing Orders Committee. because the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had very pro-
Mr. C. BARCLAY suggested that the matter had perly brought forward the number of criminal prosecutions
better be postponed for a few days.—(Cries of " No, no.") to which infractions of the late Stamp Acts had led. Re-
Mr. S. LEFEVRE thought the motion ought to be so turns to the House had been made showing the number of
framed as to include the agreement said to have been en- persons who bad been imprisoned, the amount of penalties
tered into between the rival Companies. they had incurred, &c., from year to year, for violations of
Lord STANLEY thought these private arrangements the law in this respect. And, as had been stated, those
between rival Companies was the very last thing individuals not only violated the law, but when they were
which the House ought to interfere with. He would not punished they became martyrs and objects of commisera-
object to a Committee to enquire whether there had tion. From an abstract of the returns which had been
knowingly been any false evidence given upon the Bill called fins, it appeared that there had been 600 and upwards
before the Standing Orders Committee. of persons committed in the metropolis ; 384 committed to
Mr. CURTEIS said he would move that a Select Corn- prisons in different parts of the country ; making 984 and
mittee be appointed to examine whether any false evidence upwards of persons committed for violations of these Stamp
had knowingly and wilfully been given before the Sub- Laws ; and let it be remembered also that these were pro-
Committee on the Standing Orders, or Private Bills, secutions in the Court, of Exchequer. He found the law
with respect to Stevenson's Line of the Brighton Railway, in this state then—he found that the greatest possible evils
and report the same to the House. This, he trusted, arose from what were termed these infractions of the Press.
would meet the wishes of all parties. But what was the altered state of circumstances now ?
Sir CHARLES BURRELL hoped the House would Why, since the new law came into operation there had
consider the subject well before it decided on it. been not one prosecution—there had not been one press
Mr. GREENE hoped the Hon. Member would postpone seized.—( Hear.) No such evils had resulted since the
his motion to Monday. measure came into operation. The Right Hon. Gentleman
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE trusted that the Hon. Member here proceeded to advert to the way in which the revenue had
would not. been affected by the change made in the law, and pro-
Mr. PEASE said, if the motion were not postponed, he ceeded to contend that the reduction of the Duty on News-
hoped the House would meet it with a direct negative. papers, coupled with half the Duty on Paper, which was re-
Sir G. STRICKL AND said, it having been stated by mitted also to other works of literature, had created in the
the Chairman of the Committee that he believed fraud half year only a diminution of 8,0001. out of a sum of
had been committed, there could not be a doubt that the 100,0001. (as we understood.) An objection had been made
plain and simple course to pursue was to appoint a Corn- to the imposition of postage on Newspapers forwarded to
mittee to ascertain if that was so or not. remote districts. It was eked why should the poor Agri-
Sir E. CODRINGTON could not see that there was cultural population of the country to be taxed for that
the least difficulty in making this a precedent, and be which the rich were not. This was a subject materially
should oppose the adjournment of the motion. connected with the postage of Newspapers, which he hoped
Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE said that what he, as Chair- in the present Session to see remedied. It was his inten-
man of the Committee had stated was, that Mr. Mills tion to propose the reduction of the penny postage on News-
had brought a statement before the Committee, and if that papers in the present Session if possible. He believed that
statement were true, it was quite clear false evidence had such an arrangement would give great satisfaction ; though
been given before the Committee ; but he did not pretend he confessed he did not yet see his way clearly as to sub-
to say whether that statement was true or false. stituting a hand delivery in the metropolis. With refe-
After a few words from Lord G. LENNOX and Mr. T. rence to what had been done in lowering the duty on News-
DUNCOMBE, strangers were ordered to withdraw. papers, the Right Hon. Gentleman observed that the Hon.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw and the House Member for Bath well knew the difficulty there was in
divided, when the numbers were— another place to get the measure passed. It was almost a
For the motion
For the amendment 73 Hon. Gentleman would recollect that the proposition which
Majority
The further consideration of the question was then ad- own the year previous. He had done all that he had pro-
jurned to Monday next. mised to do. He had done all be could for the people--
Mr. SHEPPARD presented several petitions in favour he had reduced the rate of taxation to what it was in the
of the Exeter and Falmouth Railway Bill. , reign of Queen Anne. The Right Hon. Gentleman con-
TITHES (IRELAND). eluded by moving, as an amendment, for accounts explana-
Lord MORPETH gave notice that, on the Ist May, he tory of the effects produced on the revenue by the change
should bring in a Bill on the subject of Irish Tithes. of the law ; returns of all legal proceedings against any
Mr. C. WOOD brought up papers, which were laid on offenders ; and returns of persons committed to prison (if
the table. any) under the new Act. This would complete the papers
Mr. ROEBUCK was called upon, but was interrupted by which had been furnished, by showing an honourable con'
Mr. HINDLEY, who begged leave to ask the Chan- tract with the former state of things.
cellor of the Exchequer whether he had any application The question having been put,
from Manchester or Liverpool for the loan of Exchequer Mr. WAKLEY rose. If the Right Hon. Gentleman
Bills. the Chancellor of the Exchequer were really so well satis- •
fied with his own plan, he would ask, how could he hesitate
to knock off' the remaining half of the tax ? The Right
Hon. Gentleman had argued that the people had derived
great advantages from the free circulation of the Newspaper
Press ; and yet he had declared against the setting of the
Press free, and hesitated to do that which was right. He
felt that the Radicals were placed in an unfortunate position
since the Right Hon. Gentleman and his colleagues had
Come into office. They had been in a sort of partnership
with the present Ministry, supporting them in their good
measures, and hesitating to give that support when they
disapproved of their proceedings. The Radicals were thus
the watching, not the sleeping partners of the Ministry, and
were acting in a most unfavourable position. If they (the
Radicals), in their sincerity to serve the public, advocated
those measures which were likely to serve the public cause,
was it not hard, that after all these efforts on their part, they
could not obtain from the Government one solitary sup-
porter ? It was almost time that this state of things should
cease ; and it was utterly impossible that it should much
longer continue. And he could assure his Majesty's Minis-
ters, with much truth, that they (the Radicals) were sub"
jetted to very bitter complaints out of doors for the very quiet,
easy part which they took in that House. It was often
asked of them, " What matters it to us whether Whigs or
Tories, whether Conservatives, as they are called, or Radi"
cals, be in power, provided we see some good measures' in:
troduced, and some Radical measures proposed and carried:-
Now he felt himself very often incapacitated from giving s
satisfactory answer to this proposition.. It was impossible
to satisfy his friends on these points. He had voted against
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth when
that gentleman was at the head of the Government, 0°
almost every occasion, and he believed he might say he
should do so again in such a case occurring, because h°
had never approved of the school to which that Right Hon.
Gentleman belonged, he (Mr. Wakley) not having o'll
aristocratic connections, and being sent to that House to
serve the people. And determined as he was to act tIP to
every pledge which he had ever given, it was a matter 0
' no importance to him who were in or out of office, Pr°.
vided that they could get measures passed which were ePti
proved of out of doors. The Right Hon. Gentleman I'B'
told them of the number of stamps issued in the last sit
months, but he had forgotten to say how many hundreds o'.
thousands of papers had been suppressed by the 11
of last year which had been freely circulated among
the industrious labouring classes of the community
He believed that many of the measures Of "I"
Majesty's Ministers were good, and he believed, yore'
over, that better could not be introduced by the Radical!
themselves. But let the House look at the state of the
country people with reference to one of the best measurses,
ever introduced into that House, namely, that for abolits%
ing the Church-rates. Only witness the delusion svh..s
prevailed in the country on the subject of this question. Is:
some parts of England—in every parish, or almost in everls
parish—the rector, the vicar, or the curate, had been rouli;
to the parishioners making statements to the people, tia
truth or falsehood of which they had not the means to as-
certain. In a parish which he lately visited in Devonsholi
the clergyman had called on the labouring people, and asket„
them " Have you heard of the Ministerial measure respect°
ing Church-rates ? Do you know that your Church Isi
be pulled down ? Are you for the Church or not ?" Thi;
had been done—
Several HON. MEMBERS—Oh, oh I name, name
05
Mr. WAKLEY—The places to which his obsereati%.
had reference were Membury, Stockland, and Yarcorn'ng
But he would name one instance further, where a labourise,
man refused to sign a petition against the Ministerial min'
sure for the abolition of Church-rates. He could not, ,;0
deed, write ; but the clergyman said to him, " rite
will do, of course as your neighbours do ; I
your name for you." Now this he believed had tpa
the case in many instances. For his own parthea
would say, that a more Conservative measure shoe
that which the Ministers had introduced for the :iv
lition of Church-rates had never been framed. /sir
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland hire'
James Graham), on a former night,- had addressed !Joe ;
self very strongly to the subject of the voluntary Prin.cA the
and he had said that many of those who advocatet not
Ministerial plan were for the voluntary principle, hi% be,
to the subversion of the Church Establishment. g`hought
lieved that if the voluntary principle were once "r of O.
into play, it would he beneficial to the best interests
ve the
will been
Church, because it would tend to awaken and irar,!,),juscls•
energies of the Ministers and members of that lila,. of.
He never wished to weaken or disturb a single P sought
the Establishment. He denied that the Radicas,lB
for or desired the subversion of the Church. r. yea Pi°
Radicals desired was, that. the great mass Of t""s;stio°'
should have an opportunity to understand the V° such
submitted to that House. At present they had,:be the
facilities afforded them. The Newspaper ought 1.-0 if ' s"'"
weekly book of the labouring man, and would be sod 0;
had the opportunity of reading it ; but let him rss.
principles of personal rights and personal viredj'sgbeil!s
these and other subjects he was now ignorant.
tarp vao
noranes. of the people, in many parts of the cou
little While age
so great as to be hardly credible. Only a there vier
a farmer in Wiltshire was asked how many kings oh! Isc'srlit
reigning in England, Scotland, and Ireland• se now,
sir," said he, " I don't know how many there D...sseld Is. to
when I was a boy there used to be but tw°Laughteess
George the Third and the Prince of Wales."-413a110t, ti.g
Another was asked what he understood by ill a kaoilt ;
what he thought` of it ? " Oh," said, be, wit of deieg
shake of the head, "that's the otsly fair Way droved °beta
all our names be put iatoz; a hat, and his as '8 Now rf
why he's the Memb,er.”--(Loud laughter.)

such answers as these were received upon matters that
were the common topic of discussion, how could it be won-
dered at that there were 300 gentlemen professing Tory
principles on the opposite side of the House.—(Laughter
and cheers.) But give to the whole country the means of
acquiring information at a cheap and easy rate, and he
believed not only that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) would come over to that (the Ministerial) side of the
House, but that there would not be in the House of Com-
mons more than ten gentlemen professing Tory principles.
--(Hear, hear.) It was impossible with a well-informed
people that Toryism could continue to exist for a day.—
(Hear, hear.) It was opposed to all the best interests of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) What was Toryism ? He
would not wait to define it ; but the effects of a kindred
principle of policy and action might he seen in the Carlism
Of Spain, the Miguelism of Portugal, and the autocratic
despotism of Russia and Poland. But to return to the
topic immediately under consideration. His Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought that the
Stamp upon Newspapers improved the character of the Press
--his Right Hon. Friend thought it tended to make the
Press respectable.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had
been misunderstood. His argument was this, not that the
state.pimproved the Press, but that the substitution of a
postage duty for a stamp duty would deprive the English
Press of its present character.
Sir R. PEEL took the opportunity afforded by the in-
terruption of the Chancellor of the Exchequer of rising to
a point of order. It had often of late occurred to him that
they were falling into a bad habit of allowing gentlemen in
the midst of a speech to offer explanations which, accor-
ding to the rules of debate, ought to be deferred until the
Speech was concluded.—( Hear.) This practice had a ten-
dency to interrupt the train of argument in the mind of the
Speaker, and certainly contributed in no degree to the con-
venience of the House.
The SPEAKER observed that the circumstance to
which the Right Hon. Baronet referred had frequently
given him much pain. He was firmly convinced that the
convenience of the House would always be best consulted
by adhering with strictness to the fixed and settled rule of
debate,—(Hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY was obliged to his Right Hon. Friend
for correcting him. His Right Hon. Friend said that if the
Id. stamp were abolished he thought it would deprive the
English Press of its present character. Now everybody in the
habit of reading the Newspapers knew how private persons and
Public characters were often abused, and everybody so cir-
cumstanced must acknowledge that the present character
of the Press required to be changed. By way of illustra-
tion to this point, he would take the liberty of reading an
extract from one of our public journals. They all knew
that in poetry the finer qualities of the mind had play. To
show what a stamped Press could do, he would take a spe-
cimen of the poetry of the Times Newspaper. It was an
allusion to the Hon. and Learned Member of that House,
whose exertions in the cause of liberty for many years had
been indefatigable, and to a great extent successful, and to
whom the people of Ireland owed a debt of gratitude that
could never he discharged. It was headed " The Whig
Missionary of 1835," and went on in these terms :

" Scum condensed of Irish bog
Ruffian—coward--demagogue !
Boundless liar—base detractor!
Nurse of murder—treason's factor I
Of Pope and priest the crouching slave,
While thy lips of freedom rave ;
Of England's fame the vip'rous hater,
Yet wanting courage for a traitor.
Ireland's peasants fged thy purse,
Still thou art her bane and curse.
Tho' thou liv'st an empire's scorn,
Lift on high thy brazen horn
Every dog shall have his day,
This is thine of brutish sway,
Mounted on a Premier's back,
Lash the Ministerial pack ;
At thy nod they hold their places—
Crack their sinews—grind their faces.
Tho' thy hand bad stabbed their mother,
They would fawn arid call thee brother;
By their leave pursue thy calling,
Rend thy patriot lungs with bawling ;
Spout thy filth—effuse thy slime,
Slender is in thee no crime.
Safe from challange—safe from law—
What can curb thy callous jaw ?
Who would sue a convict liar ?
On a poltroon who would fire?
Thou may'st walk in open light,
Few will kick thee—none can fight.
Then grant the monster leave to roam,
Let him slaver out hit foam,
Only give him length of string,
He'll contrive himself to swing."
That was the poetry of the stamped Press.—(Cheers.) He
had copied the passage from the Times of the 26th of No-
veraber, 1835, only a year and a half since ; and in the
Times of the 16th December, 1835, only a fortnight after-
wards, there was this notice to correspondents :—" The
verses to King Dan are well imagined, but want polish."
--(Laughter.) So that this was a polished specimen of
the poetry of the stamped Press.—(Laughter and
"eel's.) From the prose of the same Newspaper he
'night have made made many selections if lie had
thought them necessary ; he had merely alluded to the
Poetry for the purpose of showing that the stamp at any
rate had not produced any great decree of refinement in
the Press. He should have thought, indeed, that his
Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer could have testified to that fact himself.—(Hear.) He
would now go to another part of the question. He con-
tended that a free people were entitled to a free Press. He
nraintained that a nation was not free where the Press was
not free.—(Hear.) The freedom of the Press consisted—
not in imposing restraints to prevent breaches of decorum
'shut in punishing those who were actually guilty o viola-
tions of decorum in these publications. What said Black-
atone upon the point ? " Every man has a right to lay
What sentiments he pleases before the public—to prohibit
this is to destroy the freedom of the Press ; but if he pub-
lish what is mischievous or illegal, he must take the conse-
quence of his own demerits." Now that passage disclosed
° them in a very few words what in reality constituted a
Free Press. But suppose a man in a provincial town to
Publish a weekly pamphlet upon any political subjects, or
1311,131ie events which he conceived might be useful to the
"'lie, before he could do so he must send either to Somer-
et-house or to the stamp distributor of the district, when a
Paper similar to one he then held in his hand, and which he
tad that day received from Somerset-house, was put into his
dads, explaining to him the nature and extent of the secu-
tiles that would be required from him. This man might be
411 exceedingly intelligent tradesman or mechanic, but with-
mat any great pecuniary means. His friends also might be
Without pecuniary means. What then was he to do ? Be..lore he can proceed with his publication he must give the
taPes and residences; &c., of two persons of respecta-
intYp who will become surety for him, in the sum of 2001.
each, for the advertisement duty, and beyond that he must
have two other sureties, in the sum of 4001. each, to pre-
vent the publication of libels ; making altogether a sum of
'l+2ool. required for security before he could publish a penny
elekly political pamphlet.—(Hear, hear.) Yet they were
nd that this state of things, arising out of the odious and
tyrannical law of Last year, constituted a free Press, and
taat the law ought not to be altered.—(Hear, hear.) The
sj:stute of 60 Geo. 111., commonly called the Trash
but always been deemed a harsh and tyrannical law ;
the Act of last year was infinitely worse.—(Hear.)
"et' the law as it now stood, a man could not publish
a of Newspaper or political pamphlet without the liability
contained in having
his house broken into, and every article
it seized. There never was such a law in
ngland hefore.—(Hear.) Until last year such a law was
Ewholly unknown in the history of the Press of this country.
ear.) His Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the
Eachequer) affected to disapprove of Tory principles ; he
ai'vaYs spoke against them, and against the Tory party ;
end was perfectly right to do so. But suppose that that
Party should come into office and carry into execution the
Principles which be condemned, what would- be the fate of
the Press then?—(Hear.) It was true that he (Mr.
_ Wakley) did not much fear the Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
t
_e.eause he knew that the enlightened state of the public
mind would never endure Tory principles.—(Hear, hear.)
Hg believed that this was pretty generally felt ; and if
rreu the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) should come
into
him °Mee again, he (Mr. Wakley) should expect to see
a good Radical.—Lau titer and cheers.) They had
certainly witnessed some extraordinary mutations in public
affairs ; and after what he had seen since he had become a
Member of the House, he should hardly feel surprised at
any c.‘ange that might come about. He would recommend
big Righ Hon. Friend to take off the whole tax.—( Hear.)
~..hen the measure was last year sent up to the other
riouse a distia:uished Tory Peer made this remark in re-
ference to the pen'ny stamp which it was proposed to re-
tain They may Jo better by sending up a Bill taking
off the duty altogether, :tad by putting aside the compli-
!•:lted machinery and expensive establishment necessary for
the levying a paltry penny tax upon each Newspaper."—
lear, hear.) That was a declaration of a Noble and
-1-,earned Lord in the other House of Parliament last ses-
vi_!on, and he (Mr. Wakley) warned the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the Treasury bench, that if they did not act
lPon the recommendation of that Tory Peer, the flon.
Cte.ntlemen opposite would take the first opportunity of
dot ng so.----(Laughter and cheers.)
h fr. WALLACE concurred with the Hon. Member
for Pinshury in his views upon the general subject, and ex-
Pressnt: a hope that before the session was over the penny
Postive .charged on the delivery of letters in London and
some
othcr places, would be discontinued.
Mr- A. TREVOR, nould not contrive how the taking off
t'_e_ whole tax upon Newscepers could be regardnd as an
essential relief io the burdens of the poilimunity. He CMr.

Trevor) was comparatively indifferent upon the subject ;
although, for the sake of consistency, he should certainly
conceive himself bound to vote against the motion of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Bath. He confessed he
was surprised, after the length the Government had gone
upon the subject, to find them now so excessively mealy-
mouthed when it was proposed to abolish the little that was
left.—( Hear, hear.) It was a perfect insult to common
sense and common understanding, to say that a Newspaper
was the best medium of knowledge.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. H UME hoped, as they were about to divide upon
the question, that he might appeal to the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet (Sir R. Peel) for his vote.—(A laugh.) The
Right Hon. Baronet had heard the speech of the Hon.
Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley). He should be
glad to know whether the Right Hon. Baronet differed in
any great degree from the view taken of the subject by
the Hon. Member for Finsbury ? Or would the Right
Hon. Baronet tell the House that he considered the
taxed Press as that moral, highly-improved, and intelligent
organ of communication that a Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite had once told him it was ?—(Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Hume) did not wish to take off the penny postage ;
he only wished to place all the Newspapers in the country
in the same situation as that in which three or four of the
metropolitan Newspapers stood. In London several papers
were published without a stamp for circulation in town and
the suburbs of the town, and with a stamp for circulation in
the country. Now, he wished the same liberty to be ex-
tended to every place in the kingdom. He wished that
every place in the kingdom should be allowed to publish an
unstamped paper for circulation at home, liable to a postage
charge of a penny upon each paper that they sent into other
parts of the country. He could best explain the advantage
of this system by supposing a case. Suppose, then, that in
Edinburgh and London there were two papers, each pub-
lishing one thousand copies, the tax upon that thousand
would be 4/. 3s. 6d. Of the thousand published in London
700 copies were sent to Edinburgh, and of the thousand
published in Edinburgh 700 were sent to London, leaving
to each 300 for home circulation. Now, if his suggestion
were acted upon, the tax would fall only upon those that
were interchanged, namely, upon 700 ; which at the rate
of a penny a piece, would amount to 21. 18s. Gd. That
sum, deducted from the 4/. 3s. Gd., left a balance of 1/..55.,
which was the amount that each place would gain if the
proposition were acceded to. At all events it did not be-
come the present Ministry to allow such an odious machi-
nery as that established by the law of last year to re-
main upon the statute-book for the sake of such a paltry tax.
Sir R. PEEL—There is something so very seducing in
the language of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and in
the kindness with which he expressed his friendship to-
wards my Hon. Friend the Member for Durham, that I
am almost afraid if I remain entirely silent it will be in-
ferred by the House, and the country generally might
suppose, considering the present state of political parties,
that there was some secret communication between us—
(Laughter)—and that that alliance which the Hon. Gen-
tleman spoke of between those he called Radicals and the
Government was about to be dissolved, and that an al-
liance was about to be cemented between them and the
Conservatives—(Laughter)—therefore I think it necessary
to inform the Hon. Gentleman that on the present question
I agree with his Majesty's Government, and not with him.
—(" No, no," from Mr. Hume.) Yes, I do.—{Laughter.)
I beg to assure the House that in saying so I am not
guilty of a breach of good faith, nor am I interfering with
any communication in progress.—(Renewed laughter.)
I understand the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer purposes to lay before us documents
which shall show the result of the experiment of the last
year. The Hon. Gentleman says, because I do not use
vituperative language in this House, I must support a mo-
tion for the removal of the penny stamp from Newspapers.
I hope I deserve the compliment of the Hon. Gentleman,
but it does not appear to me that there are a great many
steps to be filled up in the reasoning before it could be
shown that because I do not vituperate I must, therefore,
favour the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bath. I
hope the compliment of the Hon. Member is just. I wish
to discharge my Parliamentary duties, and to express my
opinions, without indulging in personalities ; and I cannot
help thinking.that if I do set that example, and if every
boiy were to follow it, the course of sound argument would
not be obstructed by it, nor the character of the House of
Commons in any degree lessened.—(Hear, hear.) But I
do not know, if I deserve the character of abstaining from
vituperation, why I should therefore remove the penny
stamp. The Hon. Member for Finsbury should be im-
partial ; he took a specimen from one Newspaper only. Now
I could read to him specimens from other Newspapers, and
I think that Hon. Member does but very little discharge his
public duty if he does not consult the public Press.—(Hear,
hear.)—I do so ; and I cannot but say, after all the expe-
rience I have had, that I am got so callous that I can read
them without my feelings being in the slightest degree dis-
turbed. lam not, to a very great extent, a reader of the
penny Newspapers, but sopietimes persons are so kind as to
forward them to me, and I cannot say that I find a penny
Newspaper more complimentary than a stamped one.
Mr. WAKLEY—There are no penny Newspapers ;
there are fourpenny ones.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Are there no penny News-
papers ?

Mr. PHILIP HOWARD—Yes, the Penny Magazine.
—(Loud laughter.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I read the Penny Magazine,
and I hope I estimate its value. I find no vituperation in
it. There are Newspapers sold for much less than four-
pence I think. At all events Ido not find Newspapers
improved, or polished in their language, whether in verse
or prose, in proportion as they decreased in price. Occa-
sionally I receive publications which have no stamp, and I
do not find them more complimentary than those that
have. From a combination of all these circumstances I in-
fer that, supposing we were to remove the stamp, we
should note taking any effectual security against vitu-
peration. think upon the whole, when party spirit runs
high, a great deal of vituperation must be necessarily ex-
pected ; and I do not think it is any very great argument
against the fair utility of the Press that you find in it occa-
sionally a great deal of personal abuse. The Hon. Gentle-
man, I presume, does not contend that the State should
be called upon to give a premium to Newspapers.—
[Mr. Hume—No.] But would you not be givini, a
premium if you were to take off the stamp-duty,
and provide coaches and other conveyances for the
distribution of the papers at the public expense ?
A very extensive and important experiment has been
made by the measure of last year. One effect of that
measure has been to do away with what may be called
smuggling with respect to Newspapers. The Right Hon.
Gentleman is about to favour us with documents which
will give us authentic information upon the whole subject.
At present my inclination is with the Government ; but
when we have got those documents, the question for the re-
moval of the penny stamp may possibly with more propriety
be entertained. Ido not consider a penny stamp in the
slightest degree unjust, if you relieve the proprietors and
purchasers of them from all charge on account of convey-
ance. With respect to the metropolis, indeed, it is true
that those papers that are only circulated in town do not
derive that advantage which those that are sent into the
country do. But it is impossible in a general arrangement
of this kind to distribute exactly the same measure of
favour to every purchaser of a Newspaper. I think the
principle of the tax is a just one, and that you have a fair
right to levy upon Newspapers an equivalent for the charge
of conveyance.
Mr. HUME—Hear, hear.
Sir R. PEEL.—Then the lion. Gentleman agrees
with me ?

Mr. HUME.—A stamp postage. •
Sir R. PEEL.—If the stamp for postage he made equi-
valent to the stamp-duty I do not see what the Newspapers
would gain. I very much doubt whether the existence of
a stamp-duty as at present, with the conveyance of News-
papers also as at present, is not a greater advantage to News-
papers than a commutation of the penny stamp for a postage
charged, varying, of course, according to the distance.
The postage charged upon Newspapers is, I presume,
to be in propertion to the expense of conveying them.
Well, let us see what would be the effect. The Hon.
Member for Finsbury says that the people in the country
villages in Devonshire require enlightenment. Now, tl.e
charge for enlightening them would be a very heavy one,
while the charge for enlightening the inen of Hounslow-
heath and Barnet would be very light. You will thus ac-
tually invert the rule, because in the neighbourhood of the
metropolis you will have a very small postage duty, while
in those villages in Devonshire which the Hon. Gentlemen
wants to be made accessible to the light of knowledge,
being at a distance of 150 and 200 miles from London,
there must be a heavy charge for postage. By charging
one postage-stamp—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume)—l
beg pardon, one stampt-duty on all Newspapers, you wil!
be enlightening the most distant parts of the country, as
well as that part near the great centre of civilization, with-
out making any distinction ►n the charge. I much doubt
whether you would not, by the present system, make the
extension of knowledge and the promotion of the cause of
civilization more easy than by the change proposed. I
have thus endeavoured to express my opinion upon the sub-
ject. I assure the lion. Member for Finsbury that 1 do
not agree with him, and that I am not meditating the abo-
lition of this penny tax. My opinion is strongly made up
that this tax ought to be maintained. If the progress of
the experiment of last year, and the documents which are
to be furnished by the Right Hon. Gentleman, shall lead to
the conclusion that the tone of the Press may be improved
by the abolition of the penny stamp, that may be the sub-
ject of subsequent consideration. But I heard nothing in
the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to which 1
do not most readily subscribe.
Mr. A. TREVOR explained. In allusion to what had

fallen from the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he begged to
say, that in what he stated he meant to convey that it was
a deception on the public to tell them that Newspapers
were the only channels of useful knowledge.
Mr. C. BULLER, as a quasi Devoniensis, begged leave
to inform the Right Hon. Baronet of one little circumstance
of which he appeared to be ignorant—namely, that the art
of printing was known in Devonshire, and if they were al-
lowed to carry it on as extensively as they pleased, they
would not require the London Press, because the people of
Devon had evil enough to set up a Press of their own.
He once, indeed, thought that the circulation of the London
Press in the provinces was absolutely necessary ; but 11
confessed that things had shaken his opinion on the subject,
for he had observed that in every respect—in ability, mode-
ration, and intelligence, the country Press was infinitely
superior to that of Lo Edon. If there we e a penny postage
instead of a penny stamp, the provinces would have the ad-
vantage of obtaining the London Newspapers as easily as they
do now, and at the same time of enjoying a cheap Press of
their own. He was apprehensive that the Right Hon. Baro-
net, on rising, was going to declare himself hostile to the re-
ductioa of the penny stamp ; but at the end of his speech
the Right Hon. Baronet gave him (Mr. C. Buller) reason to
hope better things. There appeared, however, to be a great
split with the party upon that question, for while the Right
Hon. Baronet agreed with the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer that the stamp should be retained, the Hon. Member
for Durham in that House, and Lord Lyndhurst in ano-
ther place, were for doing it away, so that there were two
to one against him. It was possible, therefore, when the ;
Right Hon. Baronet came into office, the Hon. Member
for Durham and the Noble and Learned Lord might make
it a condition, in joining his Government, that he should
concede to their opinions upon the penny stamp question.
--(Laughter.) He (Mr. C. Buller) had listened with great
pleasure to the very admirable speech of the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, who had explained the question with the
greatest force ; but he rather regretted the tone of the
Hon. Member's argument. It was not exactly that feeling
which he wished always to be adopted when speaking of the
intellectual state and education of the people. He was
sorry also that the Honourable Member should have
talked about the difference between his Majesty's Ministers
ant their Radical s ipporters. He (Mr. C. Buller) thought
the Hon. Member did them injustice in saying that the
Ministers did not support Radical notions, although the
Radicals always supported them. This was not a fair
way to put the case, because lie must say that the word
Radical had changed its meaning of late—(Hear)—and
he believed that a great many of the measures which the
Ministers now supported, and the language which they now
held, would have been Radical a short time ago.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) It was hardly fair, therefore, to say
that while the Radicals supported Ministers, Ministers did
not support the Radicals. It was fairer, on the whole, to
!,ay that the Ministers had made great progress in Radi-
calism.—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches, and iro-
nical cheers from the Opposition.) Upon this point he
thought that rather a harsh tone had been assumed to-
wards the Ministers. He must confess that, although dif-
fering from them with respect to the penny stamp duty, he
still thought that they had pursued, on the present occa-
sion, the only course open to them. Much as he himself
desired the whole duty repealed last year, yet it would, in
his opinion, be an act of levity and inconsistency on the
part ofthose to whom was entrusted the management of pub-

lic affairs, and such as would not be calculated to excite the
confidence of the country if, after determining to retain the
penny duty, the Ministers were, the very year after, to re-
move it.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time he, as an in-
dependent Member of Parliament, and without the re-
sponsibility of a Minister of State, was at liberty to express
his opinion upon the question ; he would, therefore, say
that he thought it was desirable that the penny stamp
duty should be removed. Last year, while expressing a
wish that the whole of the duty should be abolished, lie ac-
knowledged that the Right Hon. Gentleman was entitled
to great thanks for reducing the Stamp to a penny, and
said it would do a great portion of good. But he now
found that he was wholly wrong, and was greatly disap-
pointed in the effect which that reduction had had. It did
not appear to have improved the tone of the Newspapers
by breaking up the monopoly, or by diffusing political in-
formation amongst the people. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had said that there had been a great increase in the
circulation of Newspapers since the reduction of the duty ;
but he (Mr. C. Buller) would venture to predict that when
the returns were obtained it would appear that that increase
had taken place among the Sunday and country Newspapers
only. The price of those Papers being only sevenpence
a week, the reduction of threepence or fourpence in that
price was a very sensible reduction. But the reduction
of the expenditure on the daily Newspapers was so
trifling that it had not increased their circulation. Last
year he expressed his opinion with regard to the talent
and character of the daily Press of this country, which had
brought down upon him some severe animadversions ;
but he could only say that nothing had occurred since
the reduction of the Stamp-duty which induced him to
think the monopoly of that Press had been effectually broken
up, or that the literary characters engaged in the political
department of it bad been in the least degree improved.
Everything ought to be done to diffuse political knowledge
among the people, and lie was astonished that a public man
and a statesman should speak so slightly of it. Could any
statesman of the present day look at the condition of this
great people, and the great mass of working men, armed
with vast physical force, and possessing intelligence enough
to know what was going on in the political world ; but with
little learning, knowledge, or talent, to enable them to
form a correct judgment upon political questions, without
dreading what might befal this country whenever any future
period of excitement should put that mass in motion ?
The Government was now experiencing the consequence of
this ignorance on the part of the people ; for to what else
were to be attributed the prejudices which prevailed upon
what was acknowledged by all men of education to be
the very best of its measures—he meant the Poor-law
Amendment Bill.—(Cheers.) However much the Aris-
tocracy of this country might be opposed to them upon
other points, it was the fact that upon this point the Govern-
ment had received greater support from the educated classes
than he believed any Government could upon any other
point whatsoever. He had spoken to many gentlemen of
the Tory persuasion—(a laugh),—and he really thought
that the good derived from that measure had reconciled
them to many other steps which the Government had
taken, in spite of their political prejudices. But why did
a contrary opinion unhappily prevail among the uneducated,
not among the class who were supposed to be the sufferers
of that measure, but among those who had just that degree
of intelligence which was got from oral communication
with the inhabitants of large towns, and who had not the
advantage of a cl.e ip Press that could inform their minds,
and fill them with good opinions and the correct facts of
the case ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) He believed that had a
cheap press diffused amongst that class of persons merely
the facts of the case, there would have been but little of
that ignorant prejudice which had long been one of the
greatest obstacles to the good government that existed in
this country.—(Cheers.) He should certainly vote in
support of the present motion ; and he hoped that
though the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not take
any further step this session, he would apply himself se-
riously to, and reflect upon, this subject, seeing that he
must gird up his loins for a very sharp race, which the
Right lion. Baronet appeared prepared to run.—(Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK, having shortly replied, the House
divided, when the numbers were—

For the motion
Against it
Majority —39
DISMISSED OFFICERS OF THE NAVY.

Sir E. CODRINGTON rose, pursuant' to notice, to
bring forward his motion for a return, stating the period at
which the names of Commander Edward Edwards, Lieut.

Bryant, Lieut. Rowland Milner, Lieut. John Bee, Dr.

Thomas Williams, and Surgeon William Boyce, were re-
moved from the list of the navy, and were deprived of
their half-pay, and the reasons for such deprivation. The
Hon. and Gallant Admiral went into some details as to the
causes alleged by the Admiralty for the removal of those
officers from the service, but he was almost totally inau-
dible. We could understand him to say that the officers
in question were prepared, if a court of inquiry were af-
forded them, to disprove the truth of the alleged charges,
and their entire innocence of any charge that could render
them unworthy of the situations they had filled in his Ma-
jesty's service. Of one of these individuals, Mr. Milner, it
was alleged that he had borrowed money of a Mr. Solomon
Alexander, of Portsea, for which he had given, as security,
a power of attorney for the receipt of his half-pay, and
had subsequently applied for, and obtained it, himself.
He was not at the time entitled to half-pay at all, or if so,

he was entitled to a much larger sum. -Neither was he on

full pay, for, if he was, the inquiry would have been by
Court-Martial. Soon after he did receive some half-pay,
and further explanation was subsequently demanded from
him by the Admiralty. This demand was made fourteen
years after the events took place. He had been deranged.
Very naturally, lie did not wish to divulge this circum-
stance, and he could not be certain as to what took place
while in that state ; but upon inquiry he found that, in
point of fact, he had never had any transaction with the
person who claimed this debt. He offered him, however,
201. not to proceed further, from an unwillingness that the
previous state of his mind should be made known. The
pretended creditor did not know what the name of the cap-
tiin of the ship was at the time the debt was said to
have been contracted. His ignorance upon this and other
ports left no doubt on his mind that Lieutenant Milne'
never knew anything of him. He would have prose-
cuted the Times newspaper for a libel, but he had not
the means of defraying the expenses. The next case was
that of Lieutenant John Bee. He was promoted in