The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-15 00:00:00

the Noble Lord, he should certainly move an address to
the Crown, praying that the Wesleyan Methodists might
be included as participators in the grant.—( Cheers from
the Ministerial benches.) Would the Government force
this scheme on unwilling persons? He recollected the
clamour which was raised against Church-rates; the Dis-
senters complained that such an impost was in opposition to
the consciences. The Government recognized the validity of
their application, and stated their willingness to adopt
measures to relieve them from this impost. This was an
impost of eight hundred years standing, but now they
wished to force on them a new tax, for the purpose of
establishing creeds and forms of belief that were not only
repugnant to the Church of England but repugnant to the
faith they all professed. He knew he should expose him-
self to the charge of bigotry, intolerance, and illiberality;
he had fully counted the cost of what he was doing, and
he would not consent to the alteration of one single ex-
pression of his opinion. He had no objection to the con-
sideration of any plan which might be proposed for the
moral advantage of the people of this country, but he
never would consent to sever secular from religious instruc-
tion ; by religious instruction he meant instruction in those
doctrines which were essential to salvation. He bad no ob-
jection to carry secular instruction to any amount, but the
poor had little leisure, and he thought it would be more fit to
devote their time to religious instruction ; but he would
never consent, come what may, to sever secular instruc-
tion from religious. He would run any hazard—he would
expose himself to any contempt and obloquy—ha would
put into jeopardy any single thing in this kingdom, rather
than depart from the truths of the Gospel, or support any
system of religion inculcating the worship of the Saints, or
denying the divinity of the Saviour. ( The manner in
which the Noble Lord concluded his speech, appeared to
excite considerable surprise among the members on each
side of the House.)

Mr. HAVES said that, of all the great questions that
had ever been debated in that House, there never had
been one considered that involved principles of higher im-
portance, than the one nowunder discussion.—( Cheers.) It
had now come to this issue, and he was exceed-
ingly rejoiced that it had come to this issue,
an issue involving the vital principles of religious liberty
which were now at stake, and it behoved all who were de-
termined to abide by these principles to uphold their civil
and religious liberty, and to come forwav . and give their
support to the Government on this question. This great
principle had been recognised by the Toleration Act ; it
had again been recognised at the repeat of the Test and
Corporation Acts ; and still more recently by the passing
of the Catholic Emancipation Act ; and if anything had
given him pain in the course of this debate it was to find
that this subject had been introduced to the House with so
much bitterness of feeling—with such an intensity of
uncharitableness, as had marked the speech of the Noble
Lord on introducing the subject.—( Cheers.) He had
expected that a different course would have been pursued.
He had listened to speeches of the Noble Lord
on this subject in which he concurred with
him ( Mr. Hawes) in adopting principles on this subject
which were common to the Noble Lord with himself.
The Noble Lord seemed to have forgotten this, and when
he began his speech, taunting the Noble Lord with the
facility with which he could slip away from his plan—
( Cheers and laughter from the Opposition benches)—he
must say that he would much prefer an occasional slipping
away from a plan—( Renewed cheers and laughter)—to
the slipping away from any great principle.—(Loud
cheering from the Ministerial benches.) He well remem-
bered a debate in which the Noble Lord had made a most
eloquent speech, and he was glad that the records they pos-
sessed enabled him to remind the Noble Lord of what were
those principles he once professed on the subject of educa-
tion. He would not allude to the debate on the Irish educa-
tion, he would come much nearer home, he would refer to the
' debate on the University of London, on which occasion
the Noble Lord expressed himself to the following effect.
The Noble Lord then spoke with reference to the common
system of education : he said, "By bringing into one com-
mon system of education, and that not an irreligious sys-
tem, all the various classes of Churchmen and Dissenters
in this country, you will sink religious rancour and enmity,
and establish in the minds of the youth of all sects and
persuasions, a bond which the struggles and vicissitudes
of after life will not break, and which to the communit at
large, will confer great benefit and advantage." He should
be glad to know how classes of Dissenters were to be
united together by any system of education which stood
exclusively upon sects and persuasions.—( Cheers. )
Upon another occasion the Noble Lord had stated that
he was anxious to afford the Established Church
every protection and support which could be given
to it consistent with the interests of all classes
in the country, but that it was not to be maintained by
keeping up a system of injustice and exclusion. The main
cause of the spread of dissent had been occasioned among
the lower classes by the inefficiency of education, with
respect to the tenets of the Established Church, and
among the higher classes, by the strict line of exclusion
which those who were desirous to protect the Church had
drawn around her. He was satisfied if they were inclined
to attach the higher classes of Dissenters to the Church,
they could not do it better than by giving them the fullest
religious privileges.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask
whether it was just that wealthy societies and sects
should have the greatest portion allotted to them for public
grants, and the poorer ones should be specially excluded?
He now came to consider the plan proposed by the Go-
vernment, but before he did so he would refer to the gross
misrepresentations that had gone abroad with respect to
the plan. Representations of so false a character had
been made with respect to that measure, that it was diffi-
cult for him to suppose that those who put them forth were
not tinctured with party feelings. In order to show the
manner in which signatures were got to petitions against
the Government plan of education, he would just read to
the House a placard that had been put forth by the
Churchwardens of the parish of Lambeth. The Hon.
Member then read the placard, which cautioned the inha.
bitants of Lambeth against giving their assent to the Go.
vernment plan of education, as it would lead to the intro-
duction of mutilated Bibles, and the establishment of Ro-
mish and Socinian doctrines in every national school in the
country. All admitted that education was a subject of
great importance ; and :t was to be !lamented that it bad
done so little to put an end to crime. It was to be de-
plored that they were then discussing the privileges of dif-
ferent sects, when crime was increasing to the extent it
was. The Noble Lord who had just sat down, had taken
great pains to show that the plan was most unconstitu-
tional.