The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-21 00:00:00

t hat delusion of not being able-to understand their own posi- preference to the Protestants. They knew that the leading
t en.—( Continued cries of " Oh.") He said that his Noble 1 object of that party was to obtain power for the destruction
I ?riend seemed to share in that delusion in which his Majesty's I of the Protestant Church ; and that party told them, and he
T Ministers appeared to be involved with regard to this question I thanked them for their candour, that they would so use it.—
and the affairs of Ireland. They mistook their own position, (Hear.) If successful, this measure would be used by that
iotwithstanding the warning given to them both by their ' party for the extermination of the Protestant Church.—( Hear,
efeiends and opponents ; they had gone blindly burrowing on— i hear, from Opposition Members.) Let them meet this ques-
(a laugh)—in their course of mischief, every human being but. 1 tion fairly and broadly. Did the Government desire such an
themselves, whether on one side or,the other, seeing with half \ object?—they said they did not, but their measures said that
an eye that the results would be the directly opposite to what 1 they meant it.—( Hear, and cheers from Opposition Members.)
they anticipated. Like the madman, they thought all the vest He saw nothing in their measures to serve the Church, but
of the world mad, and all the rest of the world thought them 1 he saw much in their measures that tended to destroy it.—
mad.—(A laugh.) They said to those who opposed this (Hear.) In the Speech from the Throne there were
measure that they were blind, while they themselves did not . three questions recommended to their consideration, and
perceive to what it would lead. One party opposed and an- which they were called upon to determine on. These questions
other supported the Bill, both parties agreeing as to what j
were, the Church of Ireland, Corporate institutions, and Poor-
would be its effect, but his Majesty's Ministers said they 1 laws. It appeared to him, and he had no hesitation in de-
were both mistaken.—(Hear, hear.) These supported:it, 1 daring that opinion, that the question of the Church, until
because they believed conscientiously and honestly that it finally determined on, would remain a stumbling-block in the
would destroy the Church—those opposed it, because they way of coming to a decision on Corporate Reform. The
I
also believed, and also conscientiously and honestly, that it 1 final settlement of that point would go far to remove existing
would destroy the Church. His Majesty's Ministers agreed difficulties and objections. Even the settlement of the Irish
-with the opponents of the measure that the Church ought to Poor-law question might go far to facilitate an arrangement of
be supported ; they agreed with the supporters of the measure the, Corporate question. Much was said about placing Ire-
that it ought to he proceeded with ; but they disagreed with j land on the same footing, as regarded municipal rights, with
both opponents and supporters, for they declared, in the face I England. They were called upon to legislate for Ireland
of both, they declared in the face of common sense, they de- 1 upon the same principle as for England—upon a principle of
Glared in the face of reason, that this which its supporters perfect equality ; but at the same time these demands were
supported, and its opponents opposed, because it would destroy made identity of principle was refused. What was the qua-
the Church, they felt bound to carry forward on the ground lification for England ? The payment of rates for one year.
that it would be the salvation and safety of the Church.— What was the qualification proposed for Ireland ? Why, six
(Cheers.) He said, then, that with regard to this question months' residence in a 5/. tenement. Lord Grey brought
lie was borne out in asserting that his Noble Friend and his forward his Reform Bill on the principle of popular controul,
Majesty's Government miscalculated the position in which but was it the sort of popular controul provided for here ?
they stood. They professed to have one object in view, (Here the Noble Lord made some humorous allusion to the
and their opponents professed to have the same object in alterations made in the body of the House by Dr. Read, the
-view ; their supporters professed to have in view a directly applicability of which we did not clearly perceive.) These
oPPosite object, yet they carried their measure forward, were the grounds on which he rested his opposition to the
disagreeing with those who supported them, and in oppo- measure, and it was upon these considerations that he should
*hien to those with whom they agreed. The ninety-nine support the amendment proposed by his Noble Friend, which
'differing in view with them as to the effect, they would he placed on grounds that were plain and intelligible. He
-have it believed were in the wrong ; and that small, that was not at all disposed to defend the existing corporations of
:miserable, that monopolising minority—( Great cheering Ireland. They were quite ready, and perfectly willing,
;from the Opposition benches)—was really the only body in to do away with them, but there was nothing which had oc-
-the House of Commons, or in the House of Lords, or in the curred in this year more than in the last which could induce
country, which clearly saw its way before it.—( Laughter.) them to transfer Municipal Corporations from the sole posses-
He had great respect for many of his Noble and Hon. Friends sion of one class of the population into that of the other.
opposite—(Laughter from the Ministerial Benches)—but he Until the question regarding the Church of Ireland, which
could not, in the face of every reasonable man, give them they were determined to protect, was settled—(Cheers)--etill
credit for being the only clear-sighted people of the day ; her rights were placed upon a firm basis—till she ceased to be
and he inclined to the opinion that they were following, or an object of attack—till the Protestant Clergy were secure in
rather that they were pushed on, in a track which they did not their revenues—they would not place in the hands of a power-
see the end of, by those who did clearly see the end of ic, as ful, a numerous, and active body—organised and united, active
was evidenced by a very significant expression which was and powerful, fostered and encouraged by the Government—
used, he understood at a Radical meeting the other day, by (Loud cheers)—they would not place in such hands the means
the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny. The advice of effecting what they deprecated—means which no person
then given was certainly very good advice to give to a Radi- could for a moment doubt they would employ for the overthrow
cal party. The Hon. and Learned Member observed, "If of the Protestant Church. In the vain hope of giving peace
you mean to kick out the Whigs, kick them, but do not do to Ireland, which this measure most certainly would not and
so till they have given me the Irish Municipal Bill."—(Some could not give—in the expectation of giving satisfaction to a
Hon. Member intimated a doubt as to the Member for Kil- powerful party, which was not to be satisfied without the at-
leuny having made such a remark.) Yes, indeed he did, he tainment of ulterior objects—in the hope of producing conci-
really did; that was language to which his Noble Friend was liation among those who were not to be conciliated, he would
well used. He did not make that observation personally, but not increase their power of securing those ends for the attain-
addressed it rather to his Majesty's Government. It was ment of which it was very evident that municipal institutions
the language used generally by the Radical Parliament. were sought for only as a means. He and those with whom he
What they said was, " Let the poor miserable Whigs go on; acted were ready to afford ample proof that, in refusing the
let them bring forward our measures ; when they are disposed remedy now sought for, they at the same time had no wish
-to stop we must urge them forward, and when they do stop that any real abuse should continue unreformed—that they
let us kick them out." It had been contended that it was no were friends to the civil rights, alike of Irish as of English-
-argument against a measure that it might be made the step- men—but that they would not sanction the overthrow of one
ping-stone to ulterior measures of which the party bringing it monopoly for the purpose of introducing another, still more
in did not approve. He admitted such was not a fair argu- edious and tyrannical than that which it replaced.—( Cheers. )
ment against a measure good in itself, and which did not ne- Lord HOW ICK rose amidst cries of " Question," and
ceseariry lead to ulterior measures that were objectionable. " Adjourn."
The fear of a demand for that which was wrong, ought not On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON the debate was
•to prevent them from giving that which was right, and not dan- adjourned till to-morrow (this day).
egerous in its consequences; but he would say that it was not The other Orders were then disposed of, and the House ecl-
at: substantive argument against a measure if ninety-nine out of journed at a Quarter to One.
its hundred supporters carried it with a certain view and object .....---
dr at object being to put into their hands the means of carrying
their ulterior measures. He would say that no man deserved
to be free from blame who put such a lever into the hands of
his opponents. The Honourable and Learned Member for
Kilkeenny had not left them much in the dark on the subject.
He t bought they should not dispute as to the acuteness of the
Bon Durable and Learned Member—that they should not dis-
pute as to his knowledge of the state of Ireland—that they
sbou Id not dispute es to his knowledge of the power of the
varic ars levers which might be put into his hand for his
own chjects.—( Hear, hear, and loud cheering.) Those
were points on which they were now rrctty well agreed;
Theme were few also who were rot inclined to dispute the
Tower he exercised in the Government—(Opposition cheers).
and lee thought the House could not have fore tten that most
sigliii cant notification he gave in his speech of the other day'
in which he said, " Give me Municipal Reform, and I will
effect with that all the rest."—(Opposition cheers.) What
was 'ais answer? He agreed with him : in the present state
of Ireland he believed he would—(Opposition cheers)—and
theroforc—and he had himself to thank for it—and therefore
Municipal Reform they should not have.—( An Hon. Member
excheineede " They shall have it.") They have just said they
should give it. —( Great cheering from the Ministerial benches. )
lie would reply—not with regard to so humble and insignifi-
cant e.n individual as himself, but as regarded this House, as
regarded Parliament, and, he would venture to add, as re-
gard ad .the nation—that the tone taken by the General or
Nat ,onal Association at this moment was the most for-
midable obstacle in the way of passing the measure. And
su far from beine,- intimidated b - their threats—(Opposi-
tion cheers)—so far from, being led to concede to clamour
that which they would net give to justice—(Tremendous
cheering from the Ministerial benches)—he understood the
cheers—( Renewed cheering)—the cheers would signify that
they did deny that to justice.—( Cheering.)—What he said
was this, that what they denied on their own sense, that it was
not claimed by justice, that the louder—( Cries of " Oh, oh !")
—that the louder it was claimed by threats and intimidation,
the more determined were the people of England that it
should not he granted.---( Oh !)—But now with respect to this
Corporate IZeform—this much-sought-for Corporate Reform—
this beautiful pretence now when the appropriation clause was
no longer good for much—( Opposition cheers)—this new sire
qua non. By whom was it sought? Where was their evidence
either of the great fitness of the Society in Ireland for its
reception, or of the great anxiety of the people of Ireland
to obtain it? Why at the end of the last session of Par-
liament, when a doubt was expressed of the propriety of
giving the measure, they were told they would be over-
whelmed with petitions from every quarter, expressing the
indignant sense of the people of the insult offered them, and
of the indelible wrong they had sustained. What petitions
had they had ? How many ? He had taken the trouble to
count them this night, and he found that 34 altogether had
been presented in favour of Corporate Reform. Thirty-four
petitions ! On the Bth of February there were three ; on the
13th there were 5, and these 5, in order to help them, were
coupled with more popular questions. From the came place
there were 5 against Tithes, and 5 in favcur of the Ballot. Oe
the 14th there were 10 in favour of Corporate Reform, 10
against Tithes, and 1 in favour of the Ballot; there were 13
in opposition to Tithes, and 12 for the vote by Ballot. Last
evening there were eleven ; and of those it might be said that
3 prayed for the abolition of Tithes, and 1 was in favour of
the Ballot. Whether more were coming he did not know,
because they were got up at the simultaneous meetings, where
he had not the least doubt—and he said so with every respect
for the right of petition—the petition itself was got up. Were
there a petition for the taking of his head from off his shoul-
ders, without judge or jury, as many signatures might be ob.
tamed for it as had been procured for the Municipal Reform pe-
titions.—( A laugh.) With regard to this great anxiety for
Corporate Reform, whence came it ? How many petitions
from the towns which were to benefit by the Corporations ? The
trades of Dublin had petitioned. They had another petition
from Kilkenny, also one from Monaghan, one from Innis-
carra, and another. Of all the towns which were so ardently
seeking the lifespring this measure would bestow—of all the
towns which were insulted by withholding from them this in-
valuable right which had been accorded to England and Scot-
land—these were the only towns which had asked for corpora-
tions. On the other hand, four or five important towns quoted
by the Hon. Member for Belfast prayed, for God's sake, to
be left alone, and not to have the curie of corporations in-
flicted on them.—(Cheers.) Feeling and passion might be
expected to rule in Ireland now in place of sound judgment,
fur the power wielded by the General Association was most
extraordinary ; and with their missionaries and pacificatory,
and with the facility they possessed of communicating with
every parish, they did not fail to report it as the declaration
of Parliament that Ireland was unfit to be entrusted with
the same rights as England. This statement, the country
knowing nothing of the facts of the case beyond that repre-
sentation so put before them, stimulated them to repel the
insult and step forward and say they were equally entitled
with England and Scotland to be entrusted with civil pri-
vileges. But that was not the ground on which the ques-
tion rested—it was not whether Ireland was itself not
fit to exercise civil privileges, but whether, as this was
the. state of Ireland at this moment, was it so like the situa-
tion of England in every respect as to place it beyond contro-
versy that the same institutions in Ireland would produce the
same effect as in England ? He asked whether, when a real
measure of relief was brought forward, did his Majesty's Go-
vernment find on one side of the House more readiness than
on the other to deal with the question, to sift it minutely, to
look to the state of Ireland, and inquire what was necessary,
what was advantageous, what was safe for Ireland, what
similarity to the laws of England could be effected, and
what distinction must be drawn? And why should they be
debarred from taking the same broad view of this question
as they would with regard to the Poor-law measure? He
for one was prepared so to act with regard to every other
measure affecting Ireland that might be produced.—( Hear.)
But it was said they mixed up the question of Catholicism
and Protestantism with the question now before the House.
He would not use any false pretext. He would say at once
he did. And why did he mix them up ? Because such was
the state of society in Ireland that all the labouring people were
of one religion, and all the higher classes were of another—be-
cause the higher classes were in a minority and the lower classes
were in an immense majority—because no debate was opened,
no election occurred, without raising the question of Protes-
tantism and Catholicism. The present was no question of a
community of civil privileges, but it was this broad question—
would they take that course which would maintain the
ascendancy of the Protestant Church, or that which would
tend to demolish the Protestant Church ?—( Opposition
cheers.) They could not but consider the question as a reli-
gious one. They could not consider the question without a
view to Catholics and to Protestants. Had they not to regard
the Protestants in Ireland as in a minority? And they could
not help seeing that the party who would have a sway in
Ireland would use their power to-further the Catholics in

THEATRES.

DRURY LANE.

Last night Mr. Edwin Forrest performed, for the first time
in this country, the character of Rolla, in Sheridan's play of
Pizarro. No one who has had the opportunity of judging
could hesitate to affirm that Mr. Edwin Forrest is the only
man at present on our stage who can adequately represent
the high-'ouled hero, endued with immense powers both of
body and mind—of undaunted valour .and unflinching firm-
ness—yet possessing a calm, dispassionate judgment, with a
heart open to the tenderest emotions of parental and conjugal
affection. In his first character, of Spartacus, the chief qua-
tications of the actor were sufficiently developed ; and we then
had occasion to remark on the exquisite tenderness which Mr.
Forrest infused into those passages, where the sternness of the
hero melted into the ordinary feelings of the man. There is
considerable similarity between Spartacus and Rollo; in each
there is the same combination of patriotic heroism with do-
mestic tenderness ; but the latter character is, for the purposes
of theatrical representation, mere efficiently delineated by the
author than the former; and we are inclined to think that
there is a corresponding superiority on the part of the actor.
There is, perhaps, scarcely a scene throughout the
play requiring more correct judgment than that in
which Rolla fulfils his promise to Alonzo, by offering
himself as a husband to the afflicted Cora. In Mr. Forrest's
tone and bearing, through :hat scene there was a refined deli-
cacy, combined with the firmness of conscious rectitude, to
which must be awarded unqualified praise. There was one
other display of the power of the actor to which we must be
permitted to allude ; and it is the more conclusive evidence of
his genius, inasmuch as it is of a character totally different
from that to which we have already cailed attention—the exhi-
bition of his first indignation at thO :fears' of his comrades,
and of his desperate resolution to-die With or deliver his cap-
tured sovereign. This was a scene of reality.. Mr. Ward's
Pizarro is known as a judicious and talcnte-d 'performance;
na Miss iladdart in Elvira displayed occasional signs of ge-
aius of a high order. Cooper's Alonzo would have been
more effective if he had been blessed by a less artificial Cora.
Loud and frequent applause attended the whole performance,
and some calls were made at the conclusion for the appearance
of Mr. Forrest; they were not, however,,obeyed. The house
was completely full.

COVENT- GARDEN.
Mr. Hamblin appeared last night as the Roman father in
Sheridan Knowles's tragedy of Virginius. His performance,
taken together, was only of average merit—tolerably success-
ful in parts, but, as a whole, not of sufficient calibre to entitle
the actor to the permanent occupation of the place of first tra-
gedian at'the large houses. He has the advantage of thorough
knowledge of the stage, and the business connected with it.
This enables him to occasionally make a passage tell with good
effect, when an actor of less experience, though greater ability,
would I,e at fault, and fail to produce a proper impression upon
his audience. He was, of course, for now every one is, called
before the curtain at the end of the tragedy.