The Sun.
London, England, 1830-07-02 00:00:00

'Illy; KINGS ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY brought down the answer
of his Majesty to the Address of that House. Thu Noble
Earl then read the answer as Wawa :

. ._.._.._ . _
Wittisw
" I receive with satisfaction this dutiful and afThclionate ad.
dress.

" The testimony which it atibrds of your sense of the loss Which
you and the country have sustained by the death of the late King,
and of your respect and regard for his memory, is highly grati-
fying to me.
" I return you my thanks for the 'expressions of your confi-
dence in me; and I assure you that I feel that I shall best deserve
your support by my effbrts, under the favour of Divine Provi-
dence, to maintain the reformed religion established by law, and
to protect the rights and liberties of all classes of my subjects.
" W. It."

FORGERY BILL.
The Earl of MALMESBURY wished, before the House
went into Committee on the Forgery Bill, to ask the Nut*
Lord by whom it was introduced why Scotland ;mil lrehtmi
were to be excepted from its provisions? The sister king.
ilom possessed other advantages, in which their fellow sub-
jects in this country chi' not participate. They hada ppfir
currency, which was not attended with any inconvenience;
they had cheap whisky; and now they were to enjoy the
additional privilege of being exempted.from this Bill. lie
thong* . it of importance, however, that the law shnuld he
uniform in the three countries; otherwise they would lie
placed'in this anomalous eltuation—that the same crime
would be punishable with death on the one aide of tlie
Tweak and wits transportation on the other. lie wished
to know from the Noble Merquis whether, in case the pre-
sent Bill-whotild pass, it would hot be possible to introdude
other Bills immediately, of the same eireet, with regard to
Scotland and Ireland.

yea's.

The Martinis or I.ANSDOWNE Said, that though he
had introduced the Bill into that Iltiuse, he was nut, of
course, answerable fur its strhchire, as it bad emanated
(torsi the other House of Parliament. The Bill did exclude
Rcotland and Ireland, as the Noble Lord had stated ; hut
it arose frotk an apprebrinion , tif technical difficulties,
arising from the different state of the law in those coun-
tries. It.was; hevicver,
,the intention, if the present Bill
should pass,. to- follotvit with inhere applicable to Iro-
land and(Sootlasidots the-Noble Lord suggested.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said a few wortiat in it
low tone of voice, by which we understood him to
mate that the anomaly alluded to by the Noble Earl Wadi"
he guarded against in ease the till should pass.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed that, if Oiert.
• , .

were no technical difficulties in the way, the dame exrept•
ing Ireland and Scotland might be erased from the Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—The clauses of which
lie intended to propose the alteration to their Lordships
were those which referred to negotiable securities and to
the transfer of stock, with all the instruments connected
therewith. It wee his object to propose that with respect
to these two heads the law should be suffered to retnain as
it now wits. He had several objections, in point of form,
to make to the Bill as it now stood, but he should reserve
them at present, till their Lordships had decided on the
principle of the Bill. Previous to the reign of Elizabeth.
the punishment of death had never been attached to the
crime of forgery; but in the course of that reign an
Act was passed by which pillory, fine, and mutilation
were inflicted for the first offence, and fur the second,
death was ler the first time instituted as a punishment
in this case. Thus the law continued to stand till the
period of the revolution, and then the punishment of
death was definitively enacted. In the reign of George
H. a law was passed, by which the punishment of
death was extended to various degrees of the crime;
stud since then the number of the Acts had bee nne so
numerous that in my attempts had been made to conso-
lidate them, and likewise to alleviate the punishment where
it was deemed practicable. At last his Right Honourable
Friend (Sir Robert Peel) bad undertaken the office, and
he would take upon himself to say that he had accom-
plished his task in a most masterly manner. His Right
Hon. Friend had used great inquiry, diligence, and perse.
verance, and he hail conic at last to the resolution which
led to the original Bill, as it was fitst introduced into the
House of Commons. Thatrßill bad been introduced in
that form, because his Right lion. Friend was satisfied
that they ought not to exempt from the punishment of
death, the forgery of negotiable securities, or of such in.
torments as are connected with the transfer of stock. For
himself he would also say, that he had been satisfied with
those reasons which had had weight with his Right Hon.
Friend. He did not intend to enter into the question of
whether the Legisleture had the right to inflict the punish-
ment of death for the prot.ction of property, because he
was satisfied, that with the exception of an individual here
arid there, that principle was universally admitted. Those
who argued against the punishment of death in this in-
stance, however, did it on the ground that the severity of
the law defeated its own object; till/ likewise urged, that
prosecutors an:l witnesses were unwilling to come forward,
and that Juries, end even Judges, frit a difficulty in the
strict discharge ef their duty. He would enter into
the discussion of all these points, and in so doing, he
thought that be could not do better than take what oc-
curred in the metropolis as his standard. Almost all
the payments in Landaus were made through the
medium of bunking houses, Fur the returns which
were on the talde of Parliament, it appeared that with
respect 'to only 20 of those bunking house., their moues
transactions in three days, during the last month, amounted
to nearly nine millions. Four of those banking houses in the
entitle of ono year did business to the amount of 500 mil-
lions, and the 20 banking houses (to which he bad already
alluded) to the amount of more than 1,000 millions. With
ell this amount of business, he begged their Lordships to
observe, that during the first four menthe of the present
year, the amount of forgeries on these bankers did not
amour tto more than 6851. He thought that this fact was
enough to show that the law was abundantly sufficient to
protect such property, as it now stood ; he therefore warned
the House to be careful how it speculatively resolved to
alter an effective law, on the ground of producing a better,
which, after all, might be 11 none., The next point that was
urged against the law, as it now stood, was, that it deterred
prosecutors from coining forward. He believed that a
general reluctance on this point prevailed ,on all capital
(silences, and not more With respect to forgery than any
other. If he understood the matter rightly, the relue-
tance evinced by prosecutors partook of a mixed feeling;
in the first place there was no persnnal udvantage to be
attained from prosecuting, while on the other band great
personal trouble and expence were incurred. All these
things then served to deter a prosecutor ; but when asked,
it was of mum much more grateful to his self-comple-
cency to attribute his reluctance to a feeling of humanity,
than to the whole mixture of sensation that were at work
in his mind.—(Hear, hear.)—With respect to Juries, it
could not he denied that they were always reluctant to
convict in crises of capital crimes; but he did not believe
that this was more the case with forgery than any other.
In the course of his legal experience he had witnessed many '
trials for all (torte of capital offences, and he had never
found a Jury snore backward in convictions for forgery
than for any other offence that was subject to an equal
punishment. There certainly was a difference between
' the amount of acquittals in capital eases and in others,
but it was not an great as some were willing to make
them believe. His Right Hon. Friend had taken the
average results of several capital offences—murder, bur-
' glary, house-breaking, horse-startling, sheep-stealing,
and those offences which were usually designated as
under Lord Ellenborough's Act. Accurate returns
with respect to all these had been obtained, and the
result was, that it appeared that there were two con-
victione for one acquittal. How did these stemd when
compared with forgery ? Why the same emirate
returns had been obtained on that head, and the result
gave as nearly as possible the, manse proportion. With re-
spect to misdemeanours, upon the same calculations, it
appeared that the acquittals there were only in the pro-
portion of one-fourth ; which bore out the general state-
ment that ho had made. Having made these remarks,
he would venture to ask their Lordships whether there
was anything in the arguments of those who would
abolish this punishment of death, and whether they.
could safely proceed to adopt that proposition ? But
another point for which the supporters of the alteration
took credit was, that they proposed a still more effec-
tual phnishment in the place of that of death, and
that tine effect of severe imprisonment ought to he
snore dreadful to the feelings of a man capable of weigh-
ing the consequences. But, as it appeared to him, jug
the reverse of this was the case ; the dread of death
war a universal feeling of our nature; and as to all ,other
punishments, though they might really be more dreadful
than that of death, yet they required thought, and au
effort of the mind to perceive the point, and he therefore
thought it unwise to get rid of this instinctive feeling in
the mind of tnan..—(Hear, hear.)—With respect to the
manner in which the cheques on bankers were managed,
Ice begged their Lordships to`observe, that out of the pont
sum Which he had already stated, two-thirds passed in
the shape of cheques. But such was the skill of thois
who undertook to forge these cheques, that it required the
minutest investigation to discover the fraud, while, on
the oilier hand, every one was so jealous of his credit, that
for the banker's clerk to survey each cheque with a scru-
tinizing eye would be interpreted into a hint of the soh-
vency of the drawer. The finger, besides, was . Always
too wary to present, the cheque himself; an innocent per-
sou WAS employed for that purpose, and sent at those
hours when the banking.house wits most busy : if there
was any de* in the return of his messenger, the crimi-
nal absconded on the instant ; on the contrary, if he sari
his messenger quit the banking-house speedily, and unites-
companied by any one, he met him, received the notes,
converted them into bullion, and in a few hours was on
his way to quit the country. All this.presented a system
open to extraordinary facilities ; and he therefore **ken
their Lordships whether it was not their duty to restrain
the crime by the severest penalties; and be would ven-
ture to say that none could be morn , operative, or Or
better effect than tloat which now existed according to
the present law of the land. If they got rid .of the
punishment of death, there was no adequxte terror in
any other puniahment. Tranaportation, for Listener),
was by the very advocates of this immure admitted
to be inadmissible. Tine next punishment was imprison
meta. Imprisontnent for any great length of time was..
alien to the inhabitants of this country. But by this Billwas :
proposed to establish: an imprisonmeot for foul Weir,
He was well persuaded that if any one was lid-
isonel.for that term, after five or six years the table of
!aliment would be crowded with petitions in Ida favour,
and complaining of the cruelty of the proceeding. But it,
was said that hard lebou: could he added ; Inc denies! that
it could effectually be added with respect to the deeeriptiop
of persons who usually committed forgery. The only 114
labour that was efficient in this country was that art
the hulks; and the consequence of exporting such persette
to that sort of labour would bit equal to reprieving them:
for a time in order that they might suffer slower dent
But there . another point to which he be.ggeil
their Lordships' attention. If the new putsteltoml
potted was 'more efficient, that of death was noregeat
lose efficient ; and, if se, Ito wanted to know whyjbo rot-
gery of Wills was still to be left to the less efficient p9rii!4r-„,

ment only—via. that of death.--(Bear, hear.)-e-The
example of other countries had been ched. He did not
know much about what those example* Were worth ; but
at all events this he knew—that in Tuscany, where the
punishment of death was altogkher abolished, the crime of
forgery prevailed to a considerable extent ; but, in other
respects, he did not see how the principles of other coun-
tries on this point could be Applied.to this, as the system
upon which tie limey transactions of this country were
conducted was very different to that of other nations
They had likewise been called on to consider that this Bill
had passed through the other House, and that, in
consequence, a considerable degree ,of excitement
must prevail in the country on the subject.—
This point had certainly given rise to some
doubt in his mind as to the course which he ought to
pursue; but after the best consideration that be had been
able to give it, he had fallen back to his former conclu-
sions, in the belief that it would be better to expunge the
amendments which had been introduced in the other
House, so that if the Bid, when pawl into an Act in its
original shape, was found to act well, they would then be
able to consider whether it would be advisable to ex'cnd
its provision' any further. Besides which, they bad a
right to consider that the number of Members who voted
on that occasion did not amount to more then half the
whole number of the Members, and even then they hod
only carried it by the narrow majority of 13 ; in addineu
to this too, they had ta oppose to it the decision of the
same House in 1821, On which occasion the principle
which be was advocating was carried by a majority of 109
to 102. It was said, that this decision of the Lower
House would weigh on the minds of Juries and Judges.
He did not, however, apprehend this effect at all, for, from
all he had seen of Juries, lie had always found them con-
scientious and faithful administrators of the law. If this
was the case with the Juries, still more was it so with the
Judges, whose principle always was to look neither to the
right nor the left, but to administer justice impartially
to all. These shortly were the reasons for taking the
course he bad announced, and it now remained with their
Lordships to say, whether they were prepared to adopt the
amendment which he had recommended.
The question having been put upon the omissions pro-
posed by the Loan CHA NCR LLO R,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the Noble
and Learned Lord, in stating the security afforded by ca-
pital punishments in the case of negotiable securities, ap-
peared unable to say how much of the security against
forgery depended on that particular chance of the punish-
ment of death bring inflicted, and how much upon the
precautions which bankers themselves had been able to
adopt. If the Noble and Learned Lord admitted—and
to some extent, after the statements made upon unques-
tionable authority, he must admit—that a certain portion
of impunity for the offence of forgery was derived from the
state of the law, which produced a disinclination in in-
jured parties to proceed, he admitted the existence of a
great evil, and one calling for legislative interference.
Notwithstanding the Noble and Learned Lord's statement,
he believed that nota few cases might be quoted in which
Judges and Juries, acting under the operation of that fill-
ing which rose above the law, had been deterred from the
execution of what he might admit to be their duty. The
Noble and Learned Lord had omitted to consider that It
was on the indisposition of prosecutors that the difficulty
of cerrying the law into effect depended ; and that if you
wished to have a law executed, you must render it one
which should correspond with the feelings and sense of
right of those who must become the necessary instruments
of its execution. If it appeared that the proportion of
convictions was different in capital and minor cases, it
was impossible to account for the inferior number of con-
viction* iu the former, unless we supposed such charges to
be brought forward on weaker evidence than that by
which minor cases were substantiated—an impossible
supposition—or admitted that there existed a greater
reluctener to carry the law into execution—divide it
Its you might, among Judges, Counsel, Prosecutors, or
Jurors—in the one case than the other. The
Noble Alerquie proceeded to refer to the testimony of Mr.
Harmer, given before is Committee of the House of Cont-
emns in 1819, on this subject, and observed, that the re-
suit of this evidence was, that many were led to the cote.
mission of crime, under the belief that prosecutors would
not take steps to punish them when it was possible that a
capital penalty might be inflicted. Mr. thinner Mao
stated, that persons who had commenced proceeding*,
finding the punishment to be death, anti yielding to the
natural feelings of human nature, frequently applied to be
allowed to withdraw front prosecuting, and in cases in
which it was impracticable to du so even went the length
of tampering with their own witnesses in order to prevent
convictions. Feeling a degree of anxiety,to know whether
Mr. Harmer still continued to entertain the same opinions
on the subject, after ten years' additional experience, he
had communicated with that gentleman, who forwarded
hint a statement in which it was declared that the expo.
rieuce of ten years, so far from shaking, had confirmed his
previously conceived opinions. Mr. Hamer observed
that it was a mutter of common occurrence for prosecutors
and witnesses to resort to stratagems to favour the escape
of 4 felon; and in Oilier to effect this object,-they fre-
quently suppressed facts, or coloured circumstances. Ife
also stated that he had known prosecutors to pay the
amount of their own recognisances and that of the wit-
nesses, rather than persist in a capital charge. Mr. Har-
mer was of opinion, that the prosecutions for forgeries of
bills of exchange did not equal the number of compro-
mises ; that convictions were considered uncertain from
the known feelings of juries and witnesses; and that if
the punishment were less severe, there would he more
prosecutions and convictions, and fewer compromises.
He added, that he could not calculate within cute
hundred the number of compromises which had taken
place within his own knowledge, and referred to
the case of a Judge who had taken a great deal
of, trouble to get up a bill, forged by a very worth-
hats, person, whom he had known tut a schoolboy,
because the punishment was death; whereas, had the
penalty been transportation, he would have allowed the
law to take its course. Ile (Lord Lansdowne) should
consider it a beneficial consequence of the Bill, if Noble
Lords would turn their attention to secondary punishments,
so es to substitute for the present penalties of thetdeserin•
tion, something that should have greater terrors, and be
more effectual (or the prevention of crime, than trans-
portation. ire had thought.of proposing, a: ptetioluneuts
for forgery, confinement in England, under a
Bermuda*,
course of manegement, or transportation to the Bermudas,
where there existed means of more certain lad severe
punishment than elsewhere. The Noble Marquis pro-
ceeded to advert to the state of the law as affecting forgery
in foreign coeutries, and observed with respect to Tuscany,
which had been mentioned by the Noble and Learned
Lord, that it was that state in Italy in which capital pu-
nishments wane the least. frequently inflicted, and yet
where capital offences the least abounded. In Tuscany,
too, .previous to cepitel punishments being dintinithed,
offences were more frequent then at present; to that, if
any conclusion were to be drawn front the state of Tus-
cany, it was, diet the rarity of capital penalties tended to
diminish crime. Ins 110 part of the world was forgery leis
frequeut then in the Ueited States, in which, with the ex-
Option of one state, where executions for forgery occur-
red now end then, capital penalties hart been completely
done away with, and imprisonintete for periods varying
between seven and twelve years st as subatituteil for them ;
itnpritionment, partly consisting of solitary confinement
and partly of bard labour. All experience was in favour
of trying the measure es an experiment, and it was only as
an eXpeeitnent that ho proposed it. Something had been
said as if it were an inconsistency to except the cam of
forgery of wills, but he apprehended that the principle on
which this had been done was perfectly juetitiable. The
okieution to capital punishmetata for forgery tested on the
ilisinclittation of parties to prosecute in ordinary cases, but
such was the infamy and horror of forgeries of wills, that
the objection did not exist. and the law would not frail to
be enforced on eccount of its severity. Haying referred
to the petition of the three pawn* meat
,conversant with
negotiable seculitioa in this, coutery, whkh had been pre-
itetagnettlio°ll:o aart)prZt:ri I "frotnitiiii; eCutena4yrinw4itthiweal opfitatlllepivuintiV):
Mosul iu'eseset el forgeries of, bills of exchange, the Noble
Margoiivoke of the pelicy of. fixing punishment* eon,
inenserete with the nAture of offences. If the Bill were
,Igi*Arefiellailltitituctredt'4(l tat)lits'f . rlt ile:P;W:11:44:11:0;r:lilia: I:4:9:
fe' '4
Illtite!t:oilett;i4iidikup:tl)lol:,lx.uogifuctilitlielsg:naeal4cll3lltll:l7.l:lllet:
piting in. operation to rive years, tro as to enable the
!"inV111!") the 191 P. PI. Allo House 04 .11.41:5144.1.101171tdif c;itr;
ItE,

clauses end the amendments proposed to the Noble and
Loarood Lord.
Lord WYNFORD craved their Lordships' permission
to address them sitting, as indisposition had rendered him
unable to stand without seppote The Noble Lord pi 0.-
ceeded to speak from his seat, on one of the crosa-bencloN,
but In so low a tone of voice as to be frequently inaudit,h•
below the bar. He observed, that the tear of death ope-
rated on minds which were insensible to degradation, awl
quoted are great increase which had taken place in rt e
crime of stealing privately from the person, since the cid-
tal penalty had been !vitiated. With respect to that offAo u
the possibility of a capital punishment, although aelih•to
or never enfatesidi had a tendency to check A crime, whiult,
When the Capital penalty was repealed, increased a bundti d
tirlti. He had no doubt if capital punishments were per
an end fn its cases of forgery, thrtt the offence would l •
rendered of Much more frequent occurrence than at pre
sent. In all his experience, he had known no instance set
prosecutors tampering with their own witnesses in order
to facilitate the catape of felons, and had never witness -d
any reluctance on the part of Juries to convict, whet,.
t'tere existed no rcasonablc grounds of doubt. As to
Judges, he hoped they were as humane as other men. lb•
was certain they were, and knew that no part of: thole
duty gave them more pain than that part "H it which Iva,
connected with the infliction of capital punishOeMs but
at the tame time, he did not believe or,egettemp!
possibility of any Judge baring ever
conscience for a single momrtzt io ttut
on account of the auppokfi aceerif
had been made to the awe of ot
was no argument from that, for ivha
adapted to the circumstances of one ease of
country might be entirely unsuitable lord to.
Noble Marquis had admitted that secondary pima:Smut/pc,
as at present conducted, were extremely insufficient. pee
this he cordially concurred with the Noble Lord, who, i4,4*
...e trusted, would bring his great talent:lto bear o th "objet
with a view to remedy the defect. If any loan could de-
vise secondary punishments calculated to prevent crime, ti .e
Noble Magna was that individual, but it would be bet-
tar to continue capital penalties till such substitutes loft)
been discovered. They were at present discussing the
proposition with respect to negotiable securities;
Noble and Learned Lord on the ‘Vdohluck also pr.,
posed to continue the punishment of death it; cases of fur.
gery connected with the transfer of stak. Whatever
doubts he might have entertained as to other parts of the
subject, he had none with respect to the transfer 'of stark
when he considered the immense amount of propmtV
vested in that species of security, and the danger of en-
couraging depredations upon it by a mitigation of punish-
ment. He had come down to the House without hiving
made up his mind as to the way in which he should vote ;
but after having listened with attention to the arguments
of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, as well
as to those of the Noble Marquis, his decided opinion was,
that the amendment. proposed by the Noble mid Learned
Lord ought to he adopted.
Lord TENTERDEN said, the most painfli pin of his
duty was that connected with the trial of individtica
charged with the commission of capital offences, and toe
should be far from lamenting any alteration in the 1 a
which, consistently with the public good, should dimini.h
the frequency of capit it penalties; but be *a Wood, ,ae
Member of their Lordships' House, to state hie honest
opinion upon the subject, which weir, that we cordd not,
without great danger, take away the punishment of death
in those cases of forgery in which it wee proposed by 04
alterations made in the Dill in the other House of Pat

ri

went to abolish it. He did not think, from his own ex- 1
perience, that individuals were less willing to prtmeente ii
cases of forgery than in other Met When it was ter,
leckd how many thousands, and tens of thousands, might
~.,
be ahstracted from individuals by a deep-laid scheme' o' 1
forgery, it appeared to him that this crime ought to t,•q
visited with the utmost extent of punishment which th,
law allowed. lie bed never observed, in the ell :C of pro
secutions for this crime, any racrifice of conscience by ''.f
prosecutors, in consequence of their own private feelings:
and he might add, that he never knew juries take en,
other course than that which their duties prescribed t.,
them. It was equally absurd to suppose that the Judge
would step beyond the bound', of his duty in placing ti a.
evidence before the jury for their consideration. Wl,s.
should he give any opinion more favourable than the ea.).
dense won'd warrant, when the Judge well knew that 11 I
was in Inc own power, at the proper time, if the eirctim lki
stances of the ease were favourable, to recommend the ei-
fender to mercy ? t,
The Earl of ELIJON considered this to be a most im.
portant subject. Ile had attended to the execution of tl
criminal law of this country, during the whole of his pro-
fessional life, for upwards of fifty years, even before he h of
the honour of being a common law judge. But he might .
more particularly observe, that for nearly $5 years, Inc o .
.111
placed in the arduous and responsible situation of assi4o,g t'.
his Sovereign in deciding on cues of life and deride wilt o J
the !heartier made hie periodical reports. Ile could Ahlball I` -
their Lordships, that the most painful part of his duty, ;41 LI
the execution of that important trust, wee that which,
related to cases of forgery.—( Hear, hear.) The duty was ,
imposed on hint, on the one hand, to loOk, with a caret'',
eye, on the interests of society, and, on the other hand, to te
decide on what the interests of humanity and justlett re, ,
quire!, with respect to the persons olio were charger •
with this offence.—(llear, hear.) He could most con. L.
scientiously decline, that while concerned with the urea . g.
thin of that law, he never recommended that the law '',.
should take its course, except in cases where he was jar.
featly convinced that such severity was absolutely nett
sery.....(Hear, hear.) And he would, without hesitation, r
say, that if their Lordships did not agree to the amend•.
merit of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Wonliack, it
was Iris conscientious conviction that they would neither.
do that which was consistent with mercy nor reconoileable
with justioe,—(Hear, hear.) With respect to whit hail t,
Wen said about the unwillingness of juries to convict, te
must take leave to way diet it did nut rest on a solid fouruhr. se,,
titre. In respect to juries, he might he allowed to observe, i:
that the great benefit derived from them was this.`-cud e
any man who had an experience of juries would hear him ~
out in the at nement—that they did, almost uniformly mud ,
without hesitation, act in accordance with the obligatieo li
of their petit —( Hear, hear.) Attica were willing to fur. ii,
ther the ends of justice ; they would readily give their eel...
dint ; and they would, if they thought it proper, apply •
through their foreman for the extension of mercy toward"
the convicted party ; but he believed where the evidence
was fair and conclusive, they never were unwilling to con. ,
viet, acting under the sacred obligation of an mole-a.*
(Hear, hear.)—This offence should not he treated lightly. k,
since the crime was generally eotninitted by some one in
whom the defrauded party placed the utmost conlidenen
(Heat, Iteer.)—ln point of fact, in very many instanete
the crime could not be committed unless the intlividuel :-.
injured had placed the fullest confidence it) the etrendieg
party. If Noble Lords would look to the public storks in
this country, they would see how easy it was for a ceimi.,
nal to commit a forgery and to retire with the wieked
profits he had made I -and once nut of reach; they moo, •
know how difficult, how all but impossible it wee, to I ev ;it
hold of him again. If, therefore,/ they • remitted tin a
punishment they would sacrifice lemony to villainy, the) ,
would sacrifice to the cupidity of the abandoned that pro. c
perty which it was their duty to protect.—(Bear, heal.)
.—No man living could feel a higher degree of pain that)
he did in speaking these sentiments. lie could wish th-i, f.

a more merciful system of justice was caleulated to have
better effects for the protection of property, but the ex.
perienee of a long life told him that it would not
such an effect, and feeling thus, he molt heal lily N0v4,1
to the amendurient.-4Hear, hoar.)
The question was then put on the ausendinent tor sul,-
stituting the punishment of death in plaits' of that oi
transportation for the crime' of forgery, when shair•Loi,!..
ahlps divided—
For the Lord Chaneellor's
For the original detail
Majority —47
The Mute then resumed.—Report to-morrow
Lord HOLLAND,is wb understood-....(their Lordship
were all standing round the tably—ititeil that he wain,:

to-marrow, on the hrin;ing op of the report, move h::
the reinstatement of the *lame which hod been altered.
Adjourned. •

HOUSE OF COMMONS.--(LAST NIGHT.)
Several Members took the oaths of allegiance.
Sir G. COCKBURN brought up the Report on
Rye Harbour Bill.
Mitilinay's Divorce Bill went through e Committee, nil
was ordered to be read 4 second time.
Mr. SPRING RICE said he had no oppoaition to oth,,
to the present Bill, but he did hope that the pie.eitt
of the law would not he continued respeclog
It had been condemned both in end out lit it

Houle, and he hoped the next Seisiou to sea it 'aitvreil,
hf pBei;itUnn't ttiroUt:pnitArttsYd
ittinted. •
IttoroNngelwit

1118 MAJESTY'S ANS‘V)EIR,
Lor4 L. UOWE It brought okhkt Niiiill.l 4110 ht gi
answer to tbo athlti.sa 0011404041 C 40.1 i3,;4° ."It
vote 4 by that House, ifor whigh,fter Prat' •
'nu Uou. U. I.A! lAprotettl44 a iwtitioi.
against the ',lice of horning Ithbitm
Ais,Al/' I.a. Lou 'f -4 aft. t,.

id7rl

A,
I

tot r itrymito

tiott front City of Glasgow against any additional duty (,n
anolaises.
Mr. 1101111.01.15 E brought up the lief of the 'Select
Committee ott the Select Vestry Art.
Mr. BARING presented a petition against the Dill for
Iteildio3- Additional Churches.

WAYS AND MEANS..
Lord ALTIMRP wished to mak the Chancellor of the
Exchequer how he intended to bring, forward the votes
MI the elitimette) whether its meant to bring them for-
separately, or propose a vote of credit to cover the

*mount ?
tThe CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER field it
wee not his intention to propose any single item calculated
to. lead to discussion, mut thereby delay business; but to
.4-, ',repress a rote of credit suflittient in amount to teeter the
whole of the estimates not yet granted.
...' Sir J. GRAHAM (laid it was his Ittetntion to.toOrrow
re evening to lertraist in the motion, of which Int had given
#li, notice, respecting the Pone and n Half per Cent. Duties.
' Mr. BROUGHAM rose to present a petkll/491 hi vet
.y •
greet importance, and its import:met t‘'4, increased front
e .
k re own intrinsic merits, and 11,',1; source whence it ema-
eared, It related to ft t.;o4„tion weid, hail caused unparal-
,,fT •
lithll in. tercet threjegbeue the Cuiteil Kingdom. The sole-
. 1"" "al lb -0 condition of neva slavery, The petition set
''• l4
• (".1), l'`,. all its frightful c mstetteltette, the stehringe of
t, I''''"..! theme 500,000 lient.th bring' under the greatest
.1- „ (yeanti.lif4 the colonies, This petition hail Inert egret('
2rto at a rfleutill aht moat respectable-he had ever Attended.
, A t the licad of the signatures *heed the name of an
R. individual dietinguished for the ;lenity of his lite, awl his
• theineece in the emote of humanity. It was the name of
~ Mr. Wilberforce, Next to that dietingui-hed indivielnai
r Wee the time of Thomas Clarkson, Ile (Mr.
Ilrooghato) would Lek the Hoilete Whether it was
• tact elite to a haarkeit thousand individuals, and
iiwhether it wee tint due to thermielves, to carry
the resolutions that had been recommended seven l'ears
since. They ought to approach the feet of the throne
Yet on the i.lll)i,vt. If they, tlid not, he for one should fed
et eat difficulty in meeting his conetituents at the epproach•
e inter diaaolution of huliament. The petition, Which wai
A
from the London Society ter the Prevention of Stererv,
's, was that brautlia bp am! read.
4 J Me. U.Ert DOUGLAS thought it would he better
kr ir the Hon. Member bid metered his obacteations Moil
Y.
the siehject tame reguleriv before the Route. Am be
•• haft not done to, he (Mr. D'oughee) must tell him that his
Matement teepetting slavery in the Wert Indies was alto%
1
. gether wrong, , .
ktr.: 11110VOHA.M eti'd nothing euitlol glee him greater
satisfaction than to be convinced that the doetintint from
which he uhtained his knowledge rosining the AVelt
boll* planters waiterroneotes,
Atter n fey observation from Mr. Bright, Sir 0,
1; M"rrills Mr. WSo 'fl 1M IF Iti I '
. . . 11, 4. ate, r. trite , le p..t tem
-• wee loitered to be priotrth
Me. C. (.111:'.1,11' naketi the Chaticellor of the Exi he.
k. nitc,zr. when poi Intended to proceed with the Can olt 11111?
1.. -tr O. MURRAY said, if the Ittiportant inirioets 11 V-
rifinki) for !hit evening elit,tiiii he over in thee, it was his
..
111tf"dtlffil to bLitqf It fastened this evening. ''
1 :SUGAR DUTIES.
On tie
e resolutions re-spotting the auger ditties being reed,
/..‘ Re. BRIGHT contetuled that the duty nit West 'ltalian
:'O,l Ifllli aught to lee Anther rohntti. lie acid that the
':acs on mit enleta tail Rot Indian sugars well not
. . .
1
rieilucca itt natal proportion. Nit situ 00111Phlined thitt
melt:heeds were obliged its ray linty int lit 6 Wattage which
took place white the (edit Was in warehoute.. He hoped a
dame would be introduced into the liiii to remedy tied evil.
Mr. FEROUSSON
levied en 1 '
country. He "1r../nalneil of the duty that 'was
flit; unP"t4'',:ion of East bonen' veils lino this
• • c"•.eittiled.b oath, tilt he wottlll iti'vh hit
resentf t',, the .011,4; At ;ow oetye, creeigieellor et the Exchequer..
M. • es•
'' ,JItItHIT explattilit. .
, T:no CHANCELLOR of the BXCIIEQUER said that
. ewe non. Member (Mr. height) het! not fairly adverted to
. 'll;ll'"Neet of tht,t,eluty ptid on the westage of sugars.—•
'.''rift griever,et, it ao it were to bet ealle,l, arose met of the
i ntlelgencer, given to the trade. Al! sugars should pro..
e Pe. ...IYr ply ditty on importation. and it Will•nti eceortuntalt
I
I,,''. ""o to 'dm merchant to allow the *agar to be deposited
"4 ter, King's store-hooka, the duty being paid on the ad-
" Jordon of the sugar.
General GASCOYNE thought that . the prepr time
or discussing the gitestioo would be when the Hill we.
Itlllnonglet hefois the House, and he hoped. these that ALM,
stera would he oblige I still further to reduce the duty.
Colonel DA vip.s expressed leis regret that the Chan-
tenor of the Exchetpter hid pot yielded to the opinion of
, s great portion of that House, end reduced the duty on
„ sugar 47es
Mr. If. DAVIS dereied that the propotition of the
t Chancellor of the Exehequer was bruught forward in a
*in House. There "Me as many persons present when the
41 ler otion Wee diertwol st titUre were nt the present ininnent.
,• • Mr. C. l'ALVAliiteahl, the present gOestion was not
' ' "' hlY''' iheta lent Aio .11 PoliAleni one of great importance.
~,,
It.' rieelared IN A
the tV,et Inuit were in greet distress,
`,.61-.T Itlltr, 'raid ti,
,ty omit! 'set be tenet-el by the present weep.
6 r'lY °le' ,AWIttS, i:le Wee sorry that Milliaters bail not ad-
vin`,
ish
. othke'sk parties whom they premed to relieve, Re
..) ti t' eot. manner, of giving 'relief. lie disapproved of
,t t',.' rotordlorde Uiel
the itqueee former proposition; but
.'
Ol
' Pft,V4 but itiiitiCa'46 .o.ll', that it WO this peculiar feature—
' eli.ot s'litt itiiebt It ti. taetitlent,tn would himself have been
' tot .grcereit User by It, The great integrity of the Itieltt
14,eis, kierodemen operated most injuriously are the Weet
; e*.tian interest; smut it would be melt better for that in-
' 'Levert, if a eerson um* itoltpendently situated than the'
Right Hole Gentleman were to, propose revenues for its
rebel: lie complained of the disproportion in the reelect-
t.,4:7. trl,l,inticolfittiltelet. lobes on NwV,ensitwenaloli
gEiveyetanl7lrieentiesfutgoartab.o
mTelitet
Mean Ovum. Ile timeliest diet the reduction in the
t; detys to produce any beneffinel erect towards relieving the
t distress of the West India ado:tits, should be carried still
e L
4 .shere, The coloomption of sugar at present ih 11444
1
't tei,iout:i4:lll.neileixoteinncti:eolosy Tinto utteciodeoinolur,enlapeteido,nanotfl htehaWtatelit:eicl:
li'' than an six ipicteineweaantsatio'l7:lneik'aiindioow, would ilia
-d.attit(tylontoediultegy"a
ctiountitil to only elle for each individual, while the eon-
i'''.• seroption in Eteglatt.l watt 2211 e, fur tech individual. Hr
titmee.ht they should take off Iles., of the duty on sugar in
Ireland, The lion. Menthes* contended that the toluo.
6‘it should he carried at present tee the.exterret of . be. in.
*teal of Bs,, sod lie aenerolingly coneluded by movie& ae
" Vi an tunetidtuent upon the find tewilution, that the words
7 " twerity.two" be: interted.in it Matelot of 1. twenty-four'
, shillings. '
i Mr..IIUSKISSON reiterated the opinion which he lout
so often ettPresseil, that to pintinee the relief. to time
getooksa which was intended, nevi enetere en extensive in
creme of consuroptiote, the reduction should be carried
r much further than was, proposed, and at all events to the
1., extent of 7s, The dintioution in .the .revepoe which- tlie
'ls Right Poo. .Penthattateestentatett would arise from ties
W.• l'adiko4loo of Si. .Ainalltbantl:Ao,-40,0001., and he , (Me,
ilteskieson) suss by no mecca *anginas, theetlin reduction
4 of Its. would be followed by en Merano of co nteumption
''.. sufficient to stompensete for that. loon . On the metro/.
l, he ,conetived that if ther ,redueed the 'deity to 75., the
femme *meld not be more,. if; it, would be as meth,
`: affected as by the.propowol reduction, in con•equence Of
the immense ronsumption which would he 41314 to 10110 W
,'. such a reflection. After the discussion and division lett
rinigkt, ha ahituht out waste tie tient of the Ileum by going
over tide seined again. Ileobeervell that in the meant
(' seduction proposed by the Chancellor of ,the Exehequet,
1 the relative proportion wee not maintained betviten the
- .. duty en melamine and the duty on setter., golesets paid I Os.
duty, when the ditty tin sugar was Schi,,
.hciteg one-third
L,'". . t the amount of the duty on sugar. lt wee now pm-
. ' Areduce die duty from Ws to t la., while
pow, to
off, the reduction upon mulattoes was only carried to the extuott
''.., of Is. That tree not preserving the relative, proportion
whielt the ditty (en umlauts We to that
,on sugar, he
e maitetein wilier the ,reduction en the hitter heshould
brought clown to Si. That was deserving,of the' cen-
, *nitration of hie Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor
. of ties U.goltopvor.. fie regretted diet the errengeinent of
tsi9p( ore dude* o sugar bad been delayed so long, and that the
4_ existing duties hid linenstloned tee run au near to their
i' expiration. He W0101%1411' that conaultedons loci lie-i4l held
~, by parties engaged iii the sugar trifle, as towlietbar, in
- ' tonsequenee of the ' expiration of the 'ffiltiei cur kiondrey
• not, they "tumid riot prot4N.l ti leild (heir owes W itliOttt
'' paying duty,' and to calla the power otth, tioverstilot to
enforre the dirty until the news nil shOuld be pasatil. Ile
... el esiettd, howtver, that thrice parties 'Would tee the hate
priety of mot entetiog heft a contention with tl,e novo 4..
. Mont on the subject.
rII Mr. BARING supporvil the original resolution, and
i i
r i ; expressed hit opinion that t would be War not to pee.
'', - teed further With redoctione similar to Bet pretest, eiretit
i'. they hail seen the effects which should he produced open
the roman, by these seed other curie reditetion, thet hid
little mutt in the scumor of the preesseat Setieitete
"sir. MAIIERLY concurred in tt:e opinions express! I
1 by the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool on mita suhielt,
,- gi4Vl;ty. that the ploro eettotive was the reductintt of dilly
. anon an gaticia orgetietal eivittittption; the greeter would

be the increase of consumption, and the less likely any
diminution in the amount of revenue.

After a tow words from Mr. TAAhI) oil behalf of the
East India interests,
The House when'the risnibers were—.
Poe the amendinent • • •
ApillSt ' VA• 6B
Majority against it —4s
The odginai resolutions were then Severally pot and
agreed tn. -
On the motion of §le It, alter., the Common Law
Fees hill was read a third time, and
After a few words from Mr. Ilussassox, who ex.
presaed a hope that the principle of the Bill would be ex-
tended hereafter to the Courts of Equity and the iteclo-
liastieal Cturts, Mill *as passed.

Gentleman then read a, return, by which it appeared, that
More the alteration in the beer I awe, which permitted beer
to be sold by pilvate breter*, the itilethei Of public:4)omeg
had grilttlP iheiliehed, in spite of the prognostic* of ruin
from that measure. Ile earnestly hoped that the flotim
would not in this lest stage of the proceeding disappoint
the hopes antlexpectatione of the country:
Mr. MABERLY reVaaritneieled the hon. Member for
theraird to withdrew his amendment, and to bring it for-
ward at a future stige.
Mr. ESTCOIIRT'a reply was ineudi'ile in the gallery.
Colonel DAVIES explained.
VYVYAN'thought that full time should be
given for the conelderatien of 'the oeiffloil
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that a reduction of
the duty on beer would induce thoee who drink spirits to
return to the former beverege, was contrary to all expe•
rience; He (Sir R. Vyvien) kneW it was the opinion of
Many itt thai ItoutiO; elk! Onion) oat of it, diet that place'
lia* the arena for the collision d ptibte itnetetite. 'this
selfishness used not to appear in former years. The fion.
Baronet concluded by saying that he should divide with the
Hon. Member fur Oxford if lie persisted in dividing the
House. He woidd recommend hint, however, not to press
His motion Atli filither.
Mr. BROUGHAM said he could by nil means eoticur
in the Hon. Member for Abingdon's clause of postpone.
mutt, as he thought that it tended in a great degree to
sacrifice the benefit whialt would otherwise be derived
from the measure. Neither multi he agree with the Hon.
Member, fur Smithwark in thinking that the grant of
licencFsfoi Belling heer only was calculated to encourage
the sale of illegal liquors: All liquors, however lawful in
themselves, became unlawful when leild in a house which
wee not liceueed. The present measure eppeated to him
a very groat improvement in the law of the hand, and
ohgbt, to ise rionsidered a stibject of general congratnlation
to the public. Although they had VW arrived at the
beginning of July after having &hated more questions
than at any former period,—after having hard more
speeches and unite speakers of all kinde—(LaughterFee
this *as In fact, almost the only salutary measure they
had paws' during the whole cif this long, busy, and un-
usually laborious Session,e4flear )
Mni C. CALVERT stated In explanation, that he still
entertained the impression that the new licensed houses
would afford an increased facility to the consumption of
smuggled liquors, notwithstanding the Hon. and Learned
Member for Knareeboreugh'e opinion to the contrsty.
Nit E. KNATCHBULL should have supported the
present meastite conceived it likely to. benefit the
poor, but he thought quite rite reverse. If they ware re-
lieved in those articles of deify coneumption, eolp, no-
ne', and coals, it would have been infinitely more to their
advantage.—(llear.)--It wee therefore his intention to
support the elause proposed by the Hon. Member fur
Abingdon. He hoped that the Hon. Member for Oxford
week, not press hie motion to a division.
Mr. ESTCOURT should accede to the suggestion, and
not take the sense of the House on the motion alluded to.
The Bill was then reed a third time without further
opposition. After which,
Mr. MABERLY prnpoaed, by way of rider, a clause
to suspend its operation for two years.
The clause was accordingly read a first time; but on the
question that it should be read a second time, the house
divided, after a few words from Mr. WYSTAAM, in oppo•
sition to the second reading—
For the clause
Against it,.... 133
Lost by a majority of --42
On our return to the KAHL-o.y we found
Mr. T. ESTCOURT moving' a claims to limit time
operation of the Bill to parishes not conteining less than
309 houses. such a clause, he thought, would teud to
counteract in some degree the *rims effeee to the vested
interests of puhlicanit, which the woad otherwise
produce, without trenching on its main principle.
Sir C• BURRELL content/el that the Bill was passed
on a legislative error, and that it weed he a sacrifice of
revenue without being a benefit to any party. It was
highly objectionable also, so far as it went to transfer the
surveillance and jorisilietien of public-house" from the Ma-
gistracy to the excise office.
Mr. WELLS said a few words to the same effect.
'Flue CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was sure
the Hon. Member world see the inexpediency of pressing
his clause, when he considered that its effect would be to
do sway almost altogether with the operation of the Bill.
If that operation were limited, as the Ilan. Member pro.
reed, to parishes containing not less than 300 houses,
but 27 parishes out of 694 in the county of Norfolk, and
27 out of 688 in the county of Lincoln, and 22 out of 914
in Wiltshire, could derive any advantage from the Bill.
Col. SIIITHOPPE was opposed to the Bill altogether.
It would at best only edit to the number and mischievous
consequences of pia:die-houses, already too numerous. In
the city which lie had the honour to represent (Lincoln)
there were already 200 publicans.
Mr. ESTCOURT withdrew his clause.
Mr. BATLEY moved a clause to the effect of enforcing
the statute of James I. against the 't odious crime of di un-
kenness."
Mr. BROUGHAM was one of those who thought the
general interests of morality were more consulted by per
limiting such clauses to slumber in the cells of the statute-
book, titan by having them enforced, Whet was time real
meaning of this statute of limes I. ? Why, that a penalty
should be inflicted on any person who committed the
ndieue and ungodly crime of drunkenness, from any liquor
except claret or champagne.—(Hear.)-11 morality is to
be enforced by Act of Parliament; let the law be impartial,
and not punish the poor or illiterate for a crime less par-
donable in the rich And educated, whom it Apra—(ikar.)
Why 'should a torn be fined for getting &toile from gin or
spirits, and not from claret or champagne? 1-he should like
to see—however the law might be as to time principle of no
siistinction in those cases--the Justice of Peace or Magi.
striae who would fine A Knight of the Shiro or independent
Member of an independent Borough, who might possibly
tie brought before him on a Thursday morning—they dined
sometimes on a Wethiesdey—in a state presenting A good
imitation of the odious and ungodly crime of drunkenness,
which called down the wrath of the moral legislators of the
enliehteneil times of James I.—(heer, and laughter.)
Sir R. INOLIS said, the authority which denounced
drunkenness was much higher than that of James 1., and
if the Hon. and Learned Member hintielf should be found
in the street in a state ofittebriety—(Laughter)— To Magi.
straw, performing his duly, would fail to inflict puirielunent

on him.
Mr. BROUGHAM had not had the good fortune to be
edueated at the University which, was so worthily repre-
sented in every point of view luy the Hon. Baronet.—
(Ilear.)—lt wits indeed well replied by Dr. Johnson to it
lady who inquired Of him to which University she should
send ber Why, Madam, I can only say that there is
an equal quantity of . port drunk at each."--(Laughter.)—
lie was perfectly aware that a higher authority than the
Act of bums I. denounced drunkenness, but the difference
was, that that high authority, made DO distinction of per-
sons, whereas the Act of Jounce did. He pot it to the
llon. Baronet to say whether he coal point out one in.
stance of a Member of either, House of Parliament having
been punished for tippling ?--(Laughter.)
Sir R. INGLIS repeated, that if the Hon. and Leaned
Member those to go in the street intoxicated, he would soon
find that he was liable to punishment.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that the Hon. Baronet did all
he eised to tempt his virote-(Laughter)--4ue if he were
imniehrd fot being intoxicated by any Justice, he should
consider himself unfairly treated, its there Caere thousands
of gentlemen, in the sane eitnation, who were never no-
iced.---(Laughter.)
Au Hon. Menses &lifted to the clause.
Strangers were (quieted to withdraw ; but we uudetetood
that the clause was rejected without a division.
On the motion that the Bill into,
Mr. MONCK repeated his objections to the Bill. If s
free,sale of beer were to be allowed, he did not think ii
necessary that the beer should be drunk on the premimin
where it was soul. He must oppose the passing of the Bill.
Mr. CALVPAT also declined he shorild vote against the
passing of the
The Gilliry was eleored, but'no division' took place, end
the Bill was accordingly passed.
Mr. LITTLETON Moved the re-eintimittnent of the
Labourers' Wages BM
Mr. HUME recommended the postponement of the Hill
till nest Session. With that view he moved that it be
re,,eummitted that day, month.
Mr. LITTLETON dunned the Monte Might eons-
niently proceed with the Bill, as its principle had ahead'
been fully discussed. '
After smite conversation, Mr.
,Htatt withdrew bit

. . ,
motion.
The Committee then proceeded with the reusidcratiou
of the clauses of the Bill.
Mr. Waitaust.rotr, Mr. Busts, and other 800. Mem-
bers, objected, to the elausc which prohibited oia,•rere how
recommending places at which their workmen should 04-
, prnd their wages ; mid Mr. WANIIIIATON 1-1101/01 t,,litt tiit
word "recominendstion" be left out of tho daunt,
The Committee, after some diseussion, divided upon' t
lie
amendment, wben there being only 3r, Ilfe4thvei 100114,4 j
the !louse was acckailingly Ailjourneil at a Quarter t....) Tido
"o'clock.