The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

rights on the part of others. No human power could
for an instant pretend to dispute the rights and preju-
dices of private judgment in matters of religion ; and
when parents were persuaded that only a certain course
could lead to eternal salvation, they were of course
anxious that their children should receive no dif-
ferent impression. Let schoolmasters give instruction
in religious doctrines in the morning, if it were thought
expedient, to all who chose to attend, but the non-attend-
ance of others on that occasion was not to prevent the
liberty to others to attend at another period of the day
if they thought proper to receive secular education.—
(Hear, hear.) Let only those who chose be at liberty to
attend the religious instruction. The Right Hon. -Ba-
ronet had said, let us set up one monopoly and we will
let you set up another, and that was what he called the
freedom of education —(Cheers.) But he (Mr. G.)
should object to any liberty of education that did not en-
title every British subject, paying taxation, to derive a
corresponding advantage therefrom. —(Hear, hear.)
With regard to the general and special religious
given in the
in-
structionnorma whichlschoolmen.atis roponpedionsetd to
hefirbset minute of the
Privy Council, there were certainly great objections to
that ; but lie did not consider that as religion—he
looked upon it as sectarian ; and it was unfortunate
that the ministers of all sects seemed to draw attention
to the semblance of their sects rather than to
the real or essential dfferences of their religion.
He was surprised to hear a Noble and Learned Lord
(Abinger) state at Willis's Rooms the other day:that he
thought it unwise to give education or communicate
knowledge to any person not of the Established Church.
It appeared to him (Mr. Gibson) strange that the
Noble and Learned Lord's judicial mind should not
comprehend the policy of extending the blessings of
education and improvement to all. He was surprised
to hear him state that he would give no education to
the enemies of the Established Church. He recollected
the time when the Noble and Learned Lord was en-
gaged in theological disputation with the Rev. Mr. Cun-
ningham of Harrow ; and on that occasion the Noble
and Learned Lord appeared to be convinced how very
easy it was to differ upon religious matters,. He begged
to apologise for having so long detained the House.
He did not think that any case had been made out
for supporting the proposition of the Noble Lord, the
Member for North Lancashire. He believed the four
gentlemen who had been appointedoto the Board of
Education were as competent as could be found any
where else.—(Loud cheers.) It might be that the op-
position to them originated in their being four Whigs,
for they had been told that it was a party question. It
could not be forgotten, however, that they were all
members of the Established Church—(Cheers)—men
of great talent and weight in the country. That their
object in bringing forward the present plan was to make
up for any deficiency there might be in the exertions of
the British and Foreign and the National School So-
cieties. He contended, therefore, that in no point of view
had any case been made out for so hostile and adverse
a proposition as that of the Noble Lord. Although
(he Mr. G.) had received the votes of the Conservative
constituency of Ipswich, he had declared that he would
be always the advocate of education upon the princi-
ples of civil and religious liberty—( Loud cheers)—that
was the only principle upon which he was prepared to
support a system of national education. Let secular be
separated from religious instruction—and let Jew, and
Roman Catholic, and Dissenter, receive, at stated times,
the religious instruction they preferred.—(Hear, hear.)
That was the only true liberty of conscience. He pro-
tested against the Noble Lord (Stanley's) reference to
Henry IV. and Chief Justice Holt, and to the phrase
so frequently referred to, of the " Children of the
Church ;" as if, forsooth, they were such when they
were born, and that the Clergy had some prior claim to
them. He (Mr. Gibson) recognised no such claim,
and he should prefer hearing the schoolmaster de-
clare himself a member of the Church of England, but
totally independent of his Ordinary.—( Hear, hear.)
Talk of the "Children of the Church!" He would re-
mind the Noble Lord of what Locke said on that
subject—" We cannot say that a child is born of the
Church, nor can we take faith as an inheritance, other-
wise it would descend by tenure as land." He pro-
tested therefore against the Noble Lord's doctrine,
as if the clergy were authorized to take possession of the
minds of the people, and instil into them what doctrines
they pleased. Such a doctrine had not been broached
since the time of the Reformation, and it appeared to
him as if they were setting up their hatred of Popery
in proportion as they approached it, on the principle
which philosophers put forward that the nearer re-
ligious sects approached the more they hated each
other.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted the House of Com-
mons would attend exclusively to the civil rights, instead
of taking up and discussing the religious opinions of the
people. If that were done, they would no longer
have the present difficulties to contend with. They
would no longer have to decide whether a man should
learn arithmetic because he belonged to the Established
Church, or another geography because he happened to
boa Jew. He could not understand upon what prin-
ciple it was professed to mix up religious instruction
with secular education. He knew not why it was pro-
posed to found a sum in multiplication on the doctrine of
justification by faith.—(Cries of " Oh ! oh 1" from the
Opposition benches.) Hon. Members could not deny
that such propositions and such doctrines bad been pro-
pounded. He contended that attempts had been made
to teach religion and secular instruction at the same
time. He had seen in the National school books upon
that principle —he had_ seen the alphabet taught in
this way—
" A is an angel that praises the Lord, •
B is the Bible of God's Holy Word ;

C is the Church, to which righteous men go,
D is the De%il, the cause of our woe."

—(Much laughter.) The Hon. Member concluded by
expressing his determination to vote against the amend-
ment of the Noble Lord.

Sir H. VERNEY could not give his assent to many
of the propositions which he had heard propounded
from the other side. For instance the Hon. Member
for Kent (Mr. Plumptre) said the country could not
expect any permanent good from the plan of the Go-
vernment. Now, as he understood the matter, it was
, not proposed that the plan should be a permanent one.
So far as it went, he gave his cordial assent to the
Government in this plan, and was quite willing to take
his share of the opprobrium which it involved. The
Government were placed in a position of much diffi-
culty. No other matter could they have introduced
which would have caused them more danger from what
he would•call the Ihigious jealousy of the Church. It
was said it was the intention of the Government by this
plan to weaken the Established Church—if it .was so,
he would not be among their supporters, and if it
appeared that any such intention existed, "or
that such a result would follow the a.,'.option of the
plan, be wculd at once leave them. He knew how easy
it was to throw odium upon any gentleman who deserted
that party with which he usually acted, bat upon such
a subject as this he honoured any man who did so, act-
ingconscientiously, and thanked his lion. Friend behind
him (Sir G. Staunton), for so bone,tly and fairly stating
his opinion. It appeared to him that the plan was far
too limited—the sum to be granted was to small, and
he hoped that, as the good of the plan became known in
the country, some means would be devised to raise a
laraer sum for so good a purpose. He apprehended
that it would be a matter of much difficulty to get the
poorer classes to send their children to a school which
was exclusively under the superintendence of the
Clergy.—( Hear, hear.) For his part he would be most
happy that his Right lion. Friend, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, would endeavour to improve Church
property, and that the enormous increase might be ap-
plied to the purposes of education—that was a plan
which he should like to see adopted ; but he
fully believed that the working classes for whose
ben; fit the schools were wanted, would not send
their children to a school which was under the direction
of the clergyman of the parish. He spoke upon the
subject from an experience of schools of from thirteen
to fourteen years, and he had always found a great
ea'ouay existing on the part of lliisenters when schools
were under the exclusive superintendence of the Church.
Those who had found so much fault with the plan pro-
posed by the Government had not propounded any
scheme of their own ; it was very true that of late years
the Church had bestirred herself, and had made many
successful attempts at education, but their exertions
were not at all adequate to the demand. One great
objection made to the plan was that the schools would
be under Government inspection ; he was most de-
cidedly of opinion that that was a part of the plan which
ought not upon any account to be abandoned. It was a
paramount duty of the Government to secure the peace
and welfare of the people by providing for them a good
system of national education—( Hear, hear)—and if the
Government or the Parliament made a large grant for
the purpose, he saw no abuse in their watching over
its appropriation in a very strict and narrow manner,
and he sincerely trusted nothing would induce the Go-
vernment to give up that part of their plan. He be-
lieved the school the Government had in view as a
model school for those whom they assisted, was a very
large one situated at Norwood, for the children of de.
ceased parents. A better school there was not in Eng-
land ; and if the Government could cause to be esta-
blished many like it, they would confer an essential be-
nefit on the country. It was said the proposal of the
Board of Privy upon the
Church, and that it would weaken its power. The
Councillors threw obloquy
Minutes of the Board said no such thing.
There was
to be a Chaplain of the Church of England in every
school, therefore the charge was not in any way
borne out.—(Hear, bear.) He thought it was the
paramount duty of the Government to introduce
some system of national education, :which would be.in
reality deserving the name of a national system.--
(Cheers.) There was nothing in the world so dange-
rous to any country asos having
ignorance.
a large
l n population grow-
inggr
up in a state ofthis great me-
tropolis there was an enormous population growing up
in a most dangerous state of ignorance_a greater danger
did not exist in any other part of the world, and it was
the duty of the Government to do all in their power to
abate the evil. The Government had his sincere thanks
for attempting to remedy an evil which he conceived was
every day becoming.more aggravated.