The Sun.
London, England, 1863-12-26 00:00:00

Mr. Bruce, ALP., and his Constituents,

Mr. H. A. Bruce, M.P. for Merthyr, has this
week met his constituents at the Temperance-hall
in that town ; Mr. W. Harris, the High Constable,
took the chair, and the room was filled.
Mr. BRUCE, on rising, was received with loud
cheers. He said it was now two years since he had
the honour of meeting them in that hall. At the
time when it was his usual practice to call together
his constituents an important and laborious office
was offered to him by her Majesty's Government.
At that time also it had pleased God to afflict him
with serious domestic trials, and he hoped they
would excuse him on those grounds in failing to
meet those engagements, which up to that time he
had fulfilled satisfactorily to himself, if not to them.
(Applause.) At the present time there was no cause
to prevent his meeting them, and he therefore came
to render, as the chairman had said, an account of
his stewardship. The chairman had held out to him
that among his constituents there were some who
dissented from his opinions; as if that was a strange
matter. He had never been led to expect unanimity
of opinion among his constituents, and wished to
be allowed a free exercise of his own. He would
not weary them with going back over the routine
of the two last sessions, but he thought it would be
sufficient for all purposes to limit his remarks to
the last session. There was the same Government
in office. The same ruling principle was acted upon
in both sessions. Of course, if he had givea any
vote in the session of 1862 in opposition to their
views, but of which he could not then recollect, he
hoped they would have the honesty to get up
and tell him so. (Applause.) The last session of
Parliament had been charged as having been in some
respects an idle one. He could not agree with that
statement. He personally had found it a most labo-
rious one. The duties of his office had generally
more closely confined him than usual;-but with these
duties he could state that hie attendance at the House
of Commons was third in point of numbers. Although
there was no great question brought forward during
the last session in the shape of bills, 165 were
passed, besides 38 private ones. He must say that
the expectations pervading the public: mind of large
and important measures being carried out every
session were impolitic. The Poor Law, the Muni-
cipal Act, by which cheap justice was brought home
to the poor man ; free trade, and free trade not in
corn only ; these, and many other measures, whose
importance it would be tedious to detail, could not
be carried out every session. Had no measure been
introduced, the business of the session would have
been completed. Of course, in these very changing
times such an idea would he regarded as Utopian.
But it was true that it was no longer possible to
bring forward measures to improve the interests of
importance which have been passed in former ses-
sions. At the same time, though few bills have
been presented, of what might be called by some
of national importance, questions of very great in-
terest had been discussed. The debates on interna-
tional law, as in the case of the Alexandra ; the
question upon the subscription to the articles, the
subject of charities, our relations with America,
and one or two others, were topics of the highest
national interest, and also the inquiry into our rela-
tions with America. All these topics were con-
sidered and discussed with a great deal of earnest-
ness; and he thought, if they looked at these mea-
sures, they would consider that the House of
Commons had no need to be ashamed of itself at
anything which might have been said respecting
last session. One charge had been repeatedly made
in the columns of the limes, that the liberal party
seemed to have deserted its colours ; that
they have given up bills, and had failed
to perform the promises with which they
started; that they were responsible for the want of
energy displayed during the session. He was sure
they would agree with him this was not a fair re-
presentation of the matter. It was quite true that
government went into office pledged to carry a mea•
sure of reform of a wider character than that of their
predecessors. The measure, when introduced, found
much opposition, and it received very little support
from the liberal party out of doors. The Reform
Bill was lost, but there was no sympathy for it in
the country. At the time when the first Reform
Bill was proposed the constituency amounted to
1,000,000; of these it was believed only 500 be-
longed to the working classes. The proposition of
the government during the last session was to extend
the franchise to 400,000 more; this would have in-
eluded about 150,000 working men. The result would
have been that the working class would have repro-
eented one seventh of the constituency. This bill,
us might have been exp' oted, met with strong oppo-
sition from the Conservatives, and the Liberals
abandoned the bill because they felt they could not
carry it. But when the bill was abandoned there
was no expression of regret on the part of the
country. When the Reform Bill was dropped the
whole country was in arms ; there was tumult every-
where. He could put his hand on letters that had
been sent to a ref Lion of his asking him to head a
revolutionary movement. The country was then in
riot from one end to the other. Oa this occasion there
did not seem the ghost of a feeling in its favour even
among his own constituents, though Merthyr would
have been benefitted by the bill more than any other
town in the country. He thought by so doing
their constituency would have been increased to
11000, 4,000 of whom would have been working
men. But by this bill they would in a peat mea-
te have put the representation into the hands of
work•
b
, toe men. He did not support the bill, for
though he
was one who advocated a fair representa-
tion of ti,-
Working, classes, at the same time he con-
sidered they ought not to swamp the whole of the
constitueeeY. The result would doubtless have been
to put in tee
hands of the working classes come
places entirety, But whether it was proper
or not, had the e
ouutry desired it it would have
been carried.
Let thisuntry set their hearts upon
and say that they MI.
coat.avour of this or that move-
ment, and in a very
41ori
_t time that measure is sure
to be carried. lie atu_o
ned his memory in vain ;
he did not remember any one
uta °f
his constituents ex-
pressing the
slightest regret that the hat the bill was aban-
doned. At the same time thew nls
try
, were accused
of not having brought forward an 7 meskin
a radical organic change. vim
theure ma b
•
usinessg
of the Government to bring foremr,,
n io '4% question they
had no chance of carryi g. woe
them another.
instance of the strange fatality which voss_
did not know vssed this
country at this time—he%the ought
all it expresst,l -
to call it strange, for after % wide
done, for had the
contempt of what had been a _
try set their hearts upon it the measure would ewes,
been carried, therefore the epithet strange was taut_
placed ; but that in ail this there was something
remarkable he could not but express his conviction.
He received a letter some time since asking him
why ho voted against the Irish Church Bill. His
answer was that he did not vote against the bill, for
the simple reason that it never came to the vote.
At the same time, however much he respected Mr.
Dillwyn, he should have supported the Govern-
ment, on these grounds :—lt was wrong to intro-
duce a bill there was no prospect of being carried,
however well he might be satisfied that the state
of the Irish Church was a scandal to their coun-
try that could not be denied upon any single
principle of justice ; but the Government felt
at the same time, in the present disturbed state
of the public mind, that there was no chance
of dealing successfully with that question. He
teed not ask them if they considered it fair that
the endowments which they believed were given
to whole
people should be given to one
man or to one party. The question would not bear
the least examination B
when such a question
was brought far •
ward the Government were bound
to consider whether it .er t they brought forward the bill
there was and real chance of success. And be need
not esk them whether they thought any question of
such a nature relative to the •
Cathohc church would
have been supported by a large majority. It was
the operation injustice to the people of Ire-
land which had struck a black spot on the history
He had answered
of England. the question put to
him in the letter just by way of illustration, though
he should
he did not think have gene quite so far
e the same but ate time as Mr. Diliwyn ; - as a member
of the Government he must say that there was not
the slightest chance of carrying the question.
Cheers.) Whilst he was p u en the subject of Ireland,

.a..
he could not avoid making a few remarks upon the
effect of emigration on that country He could not
conceive why people should be astonished that the
inhabitants left a country where wages were 10d. a
day for another country where wages were from 6s.
to 7s. Was it to be wondered at that people desired
to better themselves, and leave for another rather
than starve in their own unfortunate country ?
(Applause.) They all knew that Ireland suffered
from an over population. It had an immense
amount of people. Ten millions depending upon a
soil which was scarcely sufficient for their support
in good seasons. In 1846, this country was visited
with a blight upon its root crop, and since that
period there has been a decrease of the population,
from emigration and other causes. What had been
the result ? The greatest beneficial change which
he believed had ever taken place in any other coun-
try. Up to 1860 the principal change had been a
diminution of the population, and an almost marvel-
lous increase in the value of property. Let him ask
them'to consider what a great and silent revolution
was going on there, and whether they did not think
1 that in a few years Ireland would take that rank
which was her inheritance (applause) both from the
nature of the soil and the character of her inhabi-
tants. One of the evils they all knew which afflicted
Ireland was the lawlessness of the inhabitants.
While in this country all the people ranged them..
selves en the people were directly opposite. He
held in his hand a paper relative to the decrease of
the population of Ireland. In 1841 there were 8
millions of people, in 1851 it had fallen to 6,550,000,
and in 1861 still further to 5,750,000. Bat with
this decrease of crime ; so closely Were poverty and
crime united. In 1851 the committals were 24,600.
In 1861 they had fallen to 5,760; not one-fourth.
Murder, as they knew, was at one time a dreadful
feature in Irish history. The number of murderers
punished in 1851 was 118 ; in 1861 these were re
duced to 30. In these times there were also many
cases of conspiracy. The number of cases occurring
in 1851 were 10, in 1861 they hadifallen to nothing.
These things strongly illustrated the fact how closely
poverty and crime were connected. They saw here
that the population had decreased 25 per cent.
Property had in the same time increased 25 per cent,
and crime had decreased 75 per cent. -What was
the cause of Irish misery ? It was the occu-
pation of small patches of hind. In 1851
there were 301.000 of these pieces of ground, from
one to five acres in extent. In 1861 there were
only 81,000. Here they saw a gradual change
going on, and he was satisfied that in the future
they would find them by no means inferior to any
of the agricultural parts of the British Empire. He
remembered when he last met them, that Lance-
shire and Ireland were the principal subjects
which occupied the public mind. It was time
to make a few remarks upon the patience with
which the English people have borne their
privations. Many persons believed then that the
failure of the cotton supply would not only be
the ruin of Lancashire, but the destruction of almost
every other branch of trade. Now, after two or
three years of this failure, instead of the country
being less prosperous than formerly, this, in some
respects, had been the most fortunate year that Eng-
land had ever known as a country. (Cheers.) There
WEIS great distress in Lancashire, no doubt, but in
almost every other part there had been considerable
prosperity, and yet at this time two of the greatest
orators—two of the greatest statesmen—took upon
themselves the trouble of informing the working-
classes that they were the most miserable, as a class,
of any in a similar position in any other nation in
Europe. There was one thing in which he should
like to see English workmen improve, and that was
in making the most of their wages, to learn to make
their money go as tar as they could. In this they
might perhaps learn a lesson from their continental
brothers. But to say that the English workmen was
inferior to the continental one was opposed to his
conviction, and must be so also to any one who had
examined the question. The same persons asserted
that an easy remedy might be found in altering the
tenure of lane. That was a subject that might meet
with some objections ? Was it the desire of the
working man to possess land. England steed in a
peculiar position ; it was the most thickly populated
country in the world. The consequence was, that
being full, it caused a competition for land. The
alteration of laws would not reduce competition,but
would servo to increase it. The possessor of land
could scarcely realise more than 3 per cent. on laud,
and was it likely that the man who only possessed
perhaps £2OO or £3OO would be content with 3 per
cent. when by investing it in cottages he could rea-
lise 6 or 7 per cent. ? Some considered that if the
law of transmission was swept away competition
would be reduced ; but in fact this was not the point.
The most important question was that the French
law should be introduced into England. Then trans-
mission of land to their children would be dispensed
with, for it would be the duty of the Government
fairly to divide the land among the chil-
dren. The first effect of this system would be that
a number of persons now very miserable would be
very much improved in their circumstances. But
how long would that last? In England within the
last ten years the population had increased 4,500,000,
of which 2,000,000 had gone to the colonies. He
had not the census of France, to compare its increase
with England. A Frenchman, writing about the
condition of the French peasantry, gives us an in-
stance of the miserable condition of their own peo-
ple in comparison to the inhabitants of this country.
Tne greatest desire of the Frenchman was the pcs
session of land. What was the result ? He com-
plains that the conscription, which as they know
prevailed over all classes of the people, had en-
feebled the people, that the stature was declining.
He had read an account a short time ago upon 'nos-
,
pital management in England and France. The
article was written by a French physician at Paris,
and he asked how it was that English surgeons
could perform operations in English hospitals which
Frenchmen dared not attempt. Their hospitals
were as good, as clearly, as well ventilated as those
in England. In the Crimea England lost 25 per
cent. ; France 70 per cent. If the people in Eng-
were the miserable class persons would have us be-
lieve, how was it that the people of this country
could bear this last trial of man's strength ?—that
English people have so much more strength than
the French, although they possess land, while the
English do not ? He now came round to the Prison
Ministers Bill. At present they knew that every
prison in England and Wales had a chaplain, and
that chaplain was a clergyman of the Church of
England. If the prisoner himself wished it—which
was not often the case, because prisoners were not
a very religious set—if he wished for the reli-
gious consolation of one of his own denomination
11e must ask for it, The bill was brought in to enable
3 etiees finding in their jail a number of prisoners o
other
denominations to appoint a chaplain of tha
perliew
Len- The number of dissenters in jail was
very leatai....., _
(applause)—becanse they did not re-
cognise mil:l"eing
to their body any who had not
attached 111
of
their selves es members, or had not given
m
ler respectability—while every dis-
reputable
Ras included in the list as belong-
soe tokee
fellow
belong-
ing to the Churea 0,,t
ng.lend. They found there
was a large number
et prisoners Roman Catholics.
The Irish form a very large proportion of the cri-
minal population of this ,
°entry. They form 3 per
of the entire population,liw_ but 15 per cent. of
cent.
population.
to crime ea not that the Irish
eject emu
teem etr::2, but they were
wtheerecrmienoirneaslu
ade them fall %oat: temptations.
surrounded
Their poverty 1:13
easily. This
with to
bill the Government was able to eat
v.:, th-___ - ,
although there was some strong oppesitio,n. rougn
other bills to which objected
his votes had been . Among
were that of Mr. Senses'
Formerly they knew that every man who refused
and the (hull,
iiiii.
to take an oath in a court of justice was liable to
imprisonment. The Quakers, as a body, took a
strict interpretation of the words, "Thou shalt not
swear," and refused to make any other than an
affirmation in a court of justice. The Moravians
were determined to avoid taking the oath, and sub-
mitted to imprisonment rather than take the oath.
In consequence of this a bill was passed excepting
the Moraviens and the Quakers. But there were a
great many other persons who conscientiously ob-
jected to take an oath, and a bill was passed which
allowed every person who had a conscientious ob.
jection to take an oath to make the affirmation.

He was one who considered that every man
should regard his word as sacred as his oath.
The oath was a superstitious failing ,and not a
religious feeling; but they knew there were
large masses of the people who attached a greater
importance to the oath, and he thought any man
must think twice before he took any step to do away
with that sacred feeling that was attached to the
oath, and his experience had led him to the con-
clusion that it was not expedient to do away with
that form. The next objection was taken to his
vote upon Mr. Somes's Bill. He had no doubt that
the vote was unpleasant to a very large number of
his constituents, because he had received 40 peti-
tions in its favour. He liked to stand well with his
constituents, but he could not give up his judgment.
He must exercise that judgment in voting for what
he believed would best serve the interest of his
country, and it was upon that principle that he re-
corded a vote which he then proceeded to justify.l
There were a great number of persons who, seeing
existing evils, were always in a hurry to get rid of
them, bat do not always take the right road to do
so. There was a great deal of drunkenness, especially
on the Lord's day. They all knew that drunkenness
was the parent of crime, and they all also liked to see
the Lord's day reverentially observed. Mr. Somes's
Bill was brought forward for the better observance
of the Sabbath and the diminution of crime. He
wished to be understood that he gave great credit
to the promoters of Mr. Somes's ]Bill and its sup •
porters in the object they had in view. But what
this gentleman proposes to do was, that because a
certain number of men were in the habit of getting
drunk, a body of men 50 times as numerous were
to be deprived of rational enjoyment. Such priva-
tion in some places it would be impossible to act
upon. In order to prevent one man from getting
drunk, 99 men would be prevented from having
their glass of beer. He had spent a large portion
of his lifetime in London, and he had seen hundreds
of persons at the dinner hour carrying home their
jugs of beer. They would see thousands of persons
strolling out on a fine day to some village a
short distance from that great city, and they
would expect to find some place open to receive
them. This bill was, however, part and parcel
of the great temperance movement, and he knew
that all all such experiments to make people
adopt a certain view had failed. Philip 11.
thought he was right in adopting the strongest
measure he could to prevent any one straying from
catholicism, and he put to death a few of those of
opposite opinions as a terror to others. There was
a desire at one time to fetter the liberty of the press,
because occasionally immoral and seditious works
were published, but the experiment miserably
failed. If, for the sake of preventing the drunken-
ness of the few, they prevented the enjoyment of
the many, they were doing wrong. (Cheers.) It
was upon that principle that he opposed Mr. Somes'
bill. He did not expect universal assent even from
some friends in that room he highly respected. If
they differed from him, he respected their views.
He had given them his reasons for not voting in
support of the measure; it was for them to consi-
der whether his reasons were just. (Applause.) He
had been informed that an answer he gave to a
question had caused some dissatisfaction. Certainly
there had been a considerable amount of misappre-
hension respecting it. For a certain amount of mis-
apprehension he was, to some extent, responsible.
Tao subject was this. Sir Morton Peto asked a
question of Sir George Grey respecting the mar-
riage by a clergyman of some parties who had pre-
viously been married by the registrar. The ques-
tion asked was---" Would the Government prose-
cute the clergyman under the statute 4th George
IV., chapter 75, section 79 ?" In a letter sent to him
it had been mentioned that he had been pat to
answer the question as Sir George Grey did not
like to give the answer himself, and that the reason
he gave the answer was that he was a high church-
man, and was closely connected with several cler-
gymen. The reason that he (the hon. gentleman)
gave the answer was that Sir George Grey was very
unwell at the time, and scarcely able to speak above_
a whisper. He, therefore, looked into the section
mentioned, and found that according to the statute
any person so committing himself was liable to
penal servitude for life, as the clergyman had
entered the names of the parties in the register
as if they had not been previously married. It was
clear in this case that there was no intention to vio-
late the register, and he answered ;to that effect.
What the clergyman intended to do was to cast a
slur upon the previous marriage, and he (the
speaker) said at the time that he had shown a want
of good taste and feeling, but he could not consider
there was anything in it to justify transportation.
He was ignorant at the time, nor did he know till
after the session, that there was a more reecnt
statute, and in this the offence was very reasonably
made a misdemeanour. The law allowed marriages
to be celebrated in the church that had been previ-
ously celebrated before the registrar, but in these
cases the names were not inserted in the register.
There was no question therefore that this gentle-
man's offence was a misdemeanour. At that time
he was ignorant of the latter statute. He hoped it
would not occasion them any surprise that the
Under-Secretary of State did not know by heart all
the statutes. In the answer he gave he did not
think he had cast any slight upon the Dissenters.
If there was one thing for which he had struggled
it had been to do justice equally to all. He had not
confined himself to votes, although they would find
his votes upon the side of religious freedom ; but
his Words had been directed to the same end, and
they should judge by his actions whether he had
not always respected the religious feelings of his
neighbours. The hon. gentleman then entered into
a lengthened explanation with regard to the foreign
policy of the Government. Though, he respected
the Poles, it was impossible that the British Go-
vernment could maintain any other than a neutral
position. He regretted the war in Japan, but he said
that could not be avoided. An Englishman had been
killed, and a lady wounded. The Japanese had been
made to pay an indemnity ; and had been requested
to give up the murderer. This they refused, and the
Admiral of the fleet was ordered to seize three vessels.
He did so. In passing back with his seizures he was
fired upon by a fart; he had returned that fire, and in
so doing had set fire to a town, containing a popu-
tion of 150,000 people. But though much was to
be regretted in this, he could not see hog' it could
have been avoided. He alluded to the war in
America, and though he had read much, he could
not offer an opinion as to whether the South had a
right to secede or not, but under the present deve-
lopment of the armed resources of America, he
thought it better, putting the question of slavery on
one side, that she should be divided. He was not
going to enter into the question as to whether these
separate States have power of independent govern-
ment. As to what were the terms of the Union, it
was never definitively stated. There were argu-
ments used, that the States had power to secede;
and, on the other side, arguments to show that they
had not. Some men said that the end of slavery
would be more quickly attained by the success of
the South than by the reunion. There were, they
knew, in the Southern States extensive tracts of
cultivated swamps where no European could live;
and was it likely that the South would give up cul-
tivating those tracts ? He also spoke strongly
against those who violated the laws of this country,
and cast a doubt upon the good faith of her Govern-
ment, and thus endangered a rupture by such pro-
ceedings. It might be that the evidence in the case
of the Alexandra was insufficient. It might be that
the judges, who were then considering the question
as an infringement within the meaning of the Act,
may pause; but did any person doubt that she
was built as a vessel of war ? Then there were
the steam rams. The question respecting them
was, for what power were they intended ? There
might be some difficulty in proving that point.
as regards the justness of the war, he gave
ne opinion. Arguments on both Rides were strong,
and he was sure of one thing, they would not wish
to implicate the Government, and bring it into con-
tempt by the acts of those who, it must be said,
were violating
the laws. He next touched upon
the Schleswig. li
swelavr,erb:atniat
itNv awsN
tiooune isatietai n
pi
to the war in ew qyuestion passing from that
Z
ealand. He regretted that
the natives brought on them-
another chapter in uni-
vessel hhtcrY) Ilit3 when the ciyil Lied and the un-