The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-16 00:00:00

In;glit elect Whether
he would take the oath or not ; and
.tti,eetr.fore he would have the option of deciding whether his
sEmirecn'Y in a court of justice should be given with the
ca e solemnity as an oath, or merely in the form of a de-
oriation. In his (Mr. Goulburn's) opinion, this was a
t serious innovation on the procee..iings in the courts of
ltsttce, and one of a most dangerous character.—( Cries
bad He
h ar. ) It was perfectly true that the Legislature
or eretofore, upon experience of the proprietyol conduct
ertain sects allowed the exemption froei oaths on
tagthemunt• of their religious opinioes ; and upc.n this p,ineiple
uegislature had granted this indulgence to the Mut-a-
ttileani,a f and Quakers. But that was a totally dill rent ques-
rein that now invoked. The point now wa.,, whether
individuals were to be at perfect liberty to reject or to take
curc:ath. No doubt particul tr eases of hardship had oc-
ed under the present state of the law ;
but it was by no
means
and a wise principle to legislate for particular instances,
considering that this Bill involved a most dangerous
Prineip les and one which up to this time had never been
acted
upon, he should feel himself compelled, at a future
stage
of atietribt to give
his
there was a fuller attendance
!ire • t. us determined opposition..
GIBSON said he differed from the Right Hon.
7"tlernan who had just sat down. The principle of the
Bill bad been in fact conceded by tire Act which
d last Session for exempting from oaths Quakers,
tended that
and Separatists ; and he (Mr Gibson) con
te_ that the House was bound in consistency to ex-
-7.%3 the principle to the rest of the community.—( Hear.)
re': were many persons belorejur to the Established
'r eh who conscientiously objected to the taking of an
ht''th,,aedi it was strange to give a privilege to Moravians
e~rcivaaers which was denied to Churchmen—( Hear,
po;t: ) It appeared tu him to be a very strange way ef sup-
log the Established Church, and, in fact giving a bonus
to diita
ber,
o,ent, thus to limit the sphere within which the mem-
ber. the Established Church could exercise their con-
alt7l,t.otis scruples.-_( Hear, hear.) But over and above
he h°lB, upon the general principles toleration—which
chueld to be quite-consistent with the maintenance of the
freh--( Hear, hear)---it seemed to him quite monstrous
°ree a mai, to take an oath which he believed ineon-
illsii.eitlit with his duty t. God.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The
Rai .t 1-100. Gentleman ( Mr. G.mlburti) lied said all that
e necessary to be exempted from an oath was to pay
us• Gd. theanal be registered, but was it to be supposed that
• 19derson who did that would he able to foresee hen it
citue, he his interest to claim exemption from the oath ?-
0474, hear.) Upon all these grounds, therefore, he, Mr.
,rs,°o) should suiport the Bill.
°('
°e Hon. Mr. LA W (the Recorder) said lie should
„1(:!1°,..5e the Bill because it would in his opinion tend to en-
1171:;reaej the security and the public confidence in the admi-
jar,._ `°° of justice. He had often observed how tenacious
10,:',;(141e,e. were of the obligation of an oath—they would fre-
usth,e' sari " my Lord such a witness has not taken the
ae„izia .80(1 he was perfectly persuaded that most juries
of cue in ordinary cases place more reliance on the evidence
wit 4-3 witness who had regularly been sworn than on six
ekito sea who had by alleged conscientious scruples
and
lied exemption from the oath. Upon public grounds,
Lut P°n the impression, not that this was a new principle
far.lo(-xtension of one which had already been carried too
ftirti\ihtr.r, should on
tahempojrilel.fitting opportunity oppose the
Pu th RYM said said Ltle Hon. and Learned Member had
• ,e
.ease of a person sworn in a public court, and one
ktssinnad evaded it by one of those expedients of
111;0',,g, his thumb or something of that sort, which
Ho,'" an intention to evade it; but he asked the
to le and Learned Member whether Juries were inclined
itoci4Y less attention to parties giving a solemn affirmation
hi, baPpeal to the Deity, or any declaration according to
liefell ? He would ask him whether they were not in-
timer to giie credence to persons giving their evidence
the,
as
sanction, and placing as much reliance upon
eareles s if an oath had been administered in the
(lee s and irreverent manner in which it was too fro-
Utly doo.:1?
The Ts•
eo„_ a3lll was then read a second time and ordered to be
is 31°1_ifted on Friday next.
" HAVES wished to ask the Rig-ht Hon. Gentleman
what
jeerioo stage of the Bill lie intended to make his ob-
GOULBURN—On going into Committee.
Lore POOR LAWS (IRELAND).
pp, IYIORPETH moved the second reading of the
ttelief (Ireland) Amendment Bill.
Mr': 'sale conversation took place across the table between
Puree ha! and the Noble Lord, but in so low a tone
,that its
rt did not reach the gallery.
Whe(ii; W. S. O'BRIEN begged to ask the Noble Lord
the then it was intended by the present Bill to take away
casesright of appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench in
to t,_ of illegal rate or whether the appeal could only be
the Assistant Baifrister ?
ther:rd MORPETH said as the clause originally stood
het e‘cal an appeal to the Queen's Bench by certiorari,
setant Barr at
nded in order to give an appeal to the As-
er.
sergeant JACKSON said the clause did not take
re? th right of appeal by certiorari from any parties
'
th_ ,e
While he was on his legs, he begged t ask
jest Lord whether it was the intention of heroMa-
of Y 8 Government
to take into consideration the case
those
meritorious- individuals from whom he had
e ge
e Sled a petition a few nights ago. Theirs was
prte!" hard case, having been discharged without any
tesi:ision after many years' of faithful services. (No answer
:.`,.!;eturned to this question.)
'ne Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
c°innaitted on Monday.
Th JUDGES' SALARIES (SCOTLAND).
"e LORD ADVOCATE moved the Order of the
B,lY4lpr the House going into a Committee on the Judges'
(Scotland) Bill.
the tere9ILLON said he should feel compelled to oppose
her o°a, unless he received an assurance that the num-
an i Judges would be dirnished, and that there would be
TheeFreased attention to the discharge of their duties.
&ateeleerease of salary was neither called for, nor justi-
Amer 'rider the circumstances. As ho did not receive that
the 4ee, he should state his reasons for objecting to
theie-Peaker leaving the Chair. He contended that
stsoe'ecease of salary was totally unjustified by the eircum-
trserpos:f the country. The people were oppressed
oaorid
tendedtared by the most grinding taxation, and h_
trea,i some very urgent necessity must exist for in-
-1797 ncig the salaries of these Judges. From the year
lien. own to the year 1810 the salary was 1,2801. per an-
lacli ortPer°re that period it was increased to 2,0001. for
'aerees eue Puisne Judges, and the specific ground was the
avers eu expenee of living at that time. In 1810 the
tarsge Price of wheat was 106 s. pet quarter, and a few
toy Z,° it was down to 365. a quarter ; and although
Possible sad been higher from short harvests, it was im-
or could continue at a high price. The Chamber
take care of Manchester, and other gentlemen would
eeeotr:e that if they could not grow it cheaper in that
4,1 -j; should have it from abroad.—(" Hear," and
l'are,";) The Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for
leensa had demonstrated that the value of all
tlin,inl.a arising from land bad been most materially
alipoil,t"eeed of late years. A Committee had been
tirgeoe °n the subject in 1834, and if the
of increasin the salaries was so great,
had as tile g
- the j report suffered to remain a dead letter? Why
Years, odges been suffered to linger in that state for five
the '(,)lre„wily was their case now brought forward ? In
eierieLl -.ice before that Committee was that of a gentle
Hamilton, who stated that the relative value of
in'tlai.e'r-ealyc°inparison'with the necessaries of life had been
tele° increased. It was admitted that one-third of
of ros Me from land should be deducted for the expenses
iiftd 4sWtgaietnill from
Fit' he
1 tiles ( Mr. Gillon) contended that. an
.indi-
sa,lary of 2,0001. a-year, was equal in point of
,e the Corn ith gentleman of landed property.of 4,00h0.1.
's'ilmorees ieclaws were repealed, instead of having
dt. their
increased, they would have them greatly lffil-
SeOtin„A n, upon what ground was it that the Judges
statet e'e-t required an addition to their salaries? Was
ie d that
core e., they were not able to live upon their present
eareee If it was, he wished to inquire what these in-
t'Year ere ? Whv th Lord Justice Clerk had 4,000/.
and With 'respeect to the Lord President, Mr.
Mew. ()_l3.e had stated that his father had been receiving
114414 th:t Year for the last 23 years. Could it therefore be
et
was, Lee was in want of an increase of salary ? The
100 Rev hat there were only five Judges in Scotland
ttaretere receiving as little as 2,0001. a-year ; and was it
eY e to be tolerated that they were to state
ere, °am not live upon an income of that amount?
Pstleyit
did
be said that the amount of
beets wea, id required an increase of salary.
, h„_ were the facts upon that subject ? If they had
lltkv4 in4rq worked, he would have been the first man to
h4t the reased their salaries; but when it was notorious
cleatiej Paly sat four mouths in a year, and eight months
f•
the feittlecould not be said that they were over-vvorkehde.
's r 4;1,, months in the year which they sat duringt
0:(1 whale the average period of their sitting was an . hour
the i"4 a day.—( Hear.) Added to this the business
ita4 itlikerior Courts in Scotland was daily diminishing,
ea" t!;11re Gillen.) hoped
.it. would continue to dimi-
tareeple of sschored in his oyinion the good sense_ of the
; B'litY for Was it contended that there was a
b ark.
t, the increase proposed, because, on the presen
4r Of they could not command the best talents of the
w eceland ; if it was, he would assert that the con-
. erionottrala,, the fact.—( Cries of " Hear.") The Right
tiiejeee before the Committee upon the subjeet, sated
th Res, aeeri,ot necessary to increase the salaries of theo_
cs, (Mr. G.) believed that no increase of
Ace kr? arloproposed by the Lord Advocate, would
Ittleteeeln the '-retfice Pc, the present Dean of the Facu tto
of a Puisne Judge. With respeye't to
the s aof the Judges being so small that the talent
14)f:ice of ceontech bar could not be induced to accept the
h_lief that uge, he would only say that it was his firm
utdriith
tl7 had ell the exception of the gentleman to whom
ree gentl ed
(the Dean of Faculty) there were not
t'°ooe , ertlen at the Scotch bar who were making
e get Year. So far from it being found impossible
r,Diatti in 111o!l' talent to fill the judicial seat, he had uo hesita-
t fie fa saying that the bench had in fact drained the bar.
'lied was, the Judges of the Court of Session.consti-
tre Pett
4 1015urgh. local aristocracy who led the fashions of
e°4liaatee t (Order I order!) errWhenev a man wns
name aced , 0 the bench he had " Lord acked to his
*ishea th'le became a member of the Aristocracy: _He
esebj i the" tc' call the attention of the House to the evidence
11
onourabl
e and Learned Member for Dublin on this
not
term
anything
etigave it as his opinion that the Judges should
cadges seParatlethdg like an aristocracy, and that they should
tadgeestl!,erees
bett:rrom the middle classes. In Ireland the
paid, but perhaps they worked harder ; neleo e e well paid Judges, according to Mr. O'Cor-
lae staence a had given any thing but satisfaction. Scot-
all saT. Perfectly satisfied with her Judges at a
4tindgea
vel?',. and Ireland was not satisfied with her
to tris,'_'ac a large salary ; why should they force
erect the the exchange There is no necessity to
; r Fudges into a local Aristocacy. There was
411 Pont
ccuof the motion, however, which met with his
Per_"Posee ,rereilee ; he alluded to the provision which was
,oe made for allowing aged Judges, after a
41)(41 thei,°,9J.4 service, to have the opportunity of retiring
,rease salary. With regard to the proposed in-
eic 50, sa ary of the Judges, he considered it uncalled
.1 8,1 t. He should the
refore move as an amend.