The Sun.
London, England, 1830-11-03 00:00:00

•Ject was to avoid interference as far Al it was consistent with ev-
own security, to avoid it.. The Hon. and Learned Member foe
Yorkshire had asked why no Member of his Majesty's Govern.
meat had taken any notice of the. distreued condition. of Ire-
land ? The reason was that the subject was not regularly.liefore
the House on this occasion. No one could deny that there was
great misery in Ireland ; and the believed in his conscience
that his Majesty's Government were as well disposed
as it was possible to be to look that condition in the face,
and to endeavour to discover a practical remedy for it.—
But it was certainly inconvenient, and could be ,produo:
tive of no useful purpose, to introduce the subject on the
Present occasion; and he would therefore reserve his opi-
nions upon the subject until a legitimate opportunity oftbred for
investigating it in all its bearings, There was one point of view,
however, which had been taken by. the Hon. Member for
Middlesex to which it was necessary to allude. The Hon.
Member had charged the Right Hon: Chief Secretary for Ireland
with a .despotic exercise of power in arresting the progress of
ro
discussions on the subject of the repeal of the Union, by a so.
dray regularly sitting for that purpose and had maintained that
that was an interference with the right of petitioning. There
was nothing in the Prielamation which had been issued on that
subject to justify such a charge. On the contrary, his Right
Hon. Friend was perfectly ready to open the door to all petitions
upon the subject. But he did feel it right and expedient to issue
a Proclamation prohibiting the continuance of an establishment
which was a'kind of parliamentary association in Dublin, perm-
nently •to discuss the question. The lion. Member for the
Queen's County seemed to think that the existence of that so-
ciety might have been allowed. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) entirely
diflbred from his Hon. Friend. The Hon. and Learned Member
for Yorkshire was on one point perfectly right. The people of
Ireland had been excited by the example of the Belgians ; and
It was his (Mr. Fitzgerald's) sincere conviction, that unless such
interference had been resorted to, the people might have come
into collision with the authorities, and a civil war might have
ensued. Humanity; therefore, demanded the step that had
been taken.

Mr. SPRING RICE denied that the protection of Ireland
from civil war could ever depend on the Proclamation of a Lord
Lieutenant. .If Ireland were in danger of such a calamity, it
would require a much more' active and powerful agent, than
public opinion to save her from it. He protested most strongly
both against the statement of danger which had been made by
the Hon. Member for Kerry, and against the remedy which he
recommended for it. Whenever, however, the question of the
state of Ireland should come under the consideration of Parties
meet, he hoped that the question respecting the resent Prods.
illation and the conduct of the Irish Government would be
carettally separated from that much greater, that vital question,
the Itepeal of the Union. It was agreed by all the Members of
that House—by all but one—that to the Union they must cling;
that the continuance of its existence was indispensible to the
happiness of Ireland and the stability of the Empire ; and that
it' it were repealed this country would be degraded to the
lowest rank among the .nations of Europe, and Ireland would
be scarcely entitled to rank at all among civilized nations.—
This, however, was not a 'subject to be discussed hastily or
incidentally. It required the most cool, deliberate, and dis-
passionate' consideration. While he sincerely regretted the
view which his Honourable and Learned Friend the Member
for Waterford took of it, there was one encouraging circumstance;
namely, that he was convinced no Hon. Gentleman could take
such a view and entertain such opinions, and at the same time
hesitate to fix an early period for the consideration of the ques-
tion, when it might be discussed without personality or violence,
and with that calmness and deliberation due to one of the gravest
subjects ever submitted to the decision of Parliament All that
heasked was the opportunity of full and temperate discussion,
conducted on the principle of his lion. and Learned Friend, of a
view to the interests of the people of Ireland ; and if he (Mr. S.
Rice) showed himself incapable of proving that the repeal of the
Union would be destructive of. the interests, not only of the ads.
tocraey, not only of the landed proprietors, not only of the manu.
facturing classes, but of the lowest peasantry in Ireland, he would
consent to abandon the opinions which he at present entertained
upon time subject. lie was anxious to maintain the Union,
firmly believing that tho maintenance of the Union depended the
prosperity of the whole empire. He would enter no Rather upon
the subject at present, because, for the reasons which he had al.
ready stated, he was ready to avoid a desultory discussion upon it.
Mr. Frrz ER ALI) explained.
Sir HENRY HA RHINO E perfectly agreed with the Hon-•
Member for Limerick, that it was desirable to avoid a desultory
discussion on such a subject, although he was perfectly ready to
enter into it, and more especially with respect to his own conduct
in promulgating the Proclamation that had been adverted to;
and he frankly confessed that he had abstained from noticing
some of the observations of the lion, and Learned Member for
Waterford, because he thought it better to de: so than to give
the remotest appearance of a personal character to such a discus-
sion as the present. But as he thought lie perceived that great
misconception existed in the minds of several Hon. Members on
this point, he begged leave to observe' that there had not been
evinced the slightest disposition, on the part of the Lord Lieu.
tenant of Ireland, to prevent meetings in any part of Ireland,
Mr the fair discusifion of the question of • the repeal of the
Union. Such meetings had. taken place at Cork, Killarney, and
at other places. When one was proposed at Drogheda, the
Mayor bad referred to him for instructions how to proceed. tits
answer was, that if no disturbance were contemplated, there
could not be the slightett objection to allow the popular feeling
tobe expressed on the subject. When, however, the lion. and
Learned Member for Waterford addressed a letter to the people
of Ireland, recommending them to establish Anti-Union Asso-
ciations ; when he recommended the establishment of a Society
for the redress of Irish grievances, which Society was to send its
emissaries into all parts of the country, he (Sir H. Hatdinge) had
given the Lord Lieutenant his, opinion, which coincided with
that of the Lord Lieutenant himself, that to allow of the esta-
blishment of such societies was to allow of the revival, under
another name, of what was formerly called the Catholic Mod*.
tion.—(Hear, hear.)—He maintained that the new societies carrie
under the description of those societies which the Act for sup-
pressing dangerous Associations was intended to suppress. He
felt no difficulty himself in drawing a distinct line of demarca-
tion between such Associations as thine which he had just
describid, and Aisociations of a legal and constitutional charac-
ter. Had he entertained any wish to stifle public opinion in
Ireland upon the subject of the Union, he should not have
answered the Mayor of Drogheda, or the Mayor of Cork, that
there was no objection whatever to meetings for the purpose of
expressing the public opinion ; although there was a great ob.
jection to allow of the formation of Associations with the power
of adjournment, the avowed object of which was to over-rule
the constituted authorities of the country. He wished
only further to observe, that, admitting that there was
great distress in helmet, he firmly believed that the de-
teriptions of that distress had been much overcharged. From the
best infOrniation which the Legislative Return* aftbriled, there
wits reason to believe that a rapid improvement was making in
the internal condition of Ireland. He had nodoubt that the con-
dition of the peasantry was much alleviated. The lion. and
Learned. Member for Waterford appeared to dissent from that
opinion. Ile referred to the evidence in support of it. On all
the best information which had been laid before the Legislature,
he Maintained that the condition of the peasantry of Ireland had
improved, and was perceptibly improving. It might be asked
what measures his Majesty's Government meant to pursue on time
RAM ? In the last Session a Report had been made by an able
Committee, on the introduction of the Poor Laws into Ireland,
containing several valuable suggestions. It was his wish to act
as far as he could upon those suggestions, after they had been
more maturely considered by his Majesty's Government' and to
use his utmost diligence to carry them into practical effect.
With respect to the repeal el the Union, whenever the question
was brought forward, he should lie prepared to express his opinion
upon it ; and he perfectly agreed with time lion, Metnber for
Limerick, that great advantages would result from its calm and
dispassionate discussion. He hoped that whenever that discus-
sion took place, he should show that he was disposed to treat the
arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford not
only with courtesy, but with the greatest possible candour.

'Mr. HODGES expressed the regret with which he had heard
the Right lion. Baronet opposite say that the distress of the dis.
Wets in which it was endured was without remedy, and that
their stateof despair could not be relieved. Adverting to the
condition of Kent, he stated that there were two classes of the
People under great distress ; but that there was a third class, for
whom there was no excuse, who were instigated by others to be.
come midnight incentlierieis—a character very nearly allied to
midnight assassins. By acts of that nature they hastened their
own destruction. At the same time it ought to be considered
that human suffering had a limit, beyond which it could not be
borne. The Hon. Gentleman read a letter from a correspon-
dent, stating that the ringleaders of a riotous mob had been seized
by the civil power without much difficulty, awed probably by a
distant view of troops. To men, however, who were on the
point of perishing, it was of little importance whether they pe-
rished from hunger or by the sword. If they were relieved, they
would disperse—if not, worse might ensue. In some cases per.
sons had refuted to be sworn in as special constables, fearing
they should be considered as marked men. The petitions which
the distressed persons had presented for relief had never received
the smallest attention. It was the duty of all honest men ;to
come and-state truths like these. He was convinced that nothing
would remedy the evil but that relllllB4oll of taxation' which
could be ended only by a reformed House of Commons—(Hear,
hear.)—Whenever that great question came again under consi.
deration, he hoped it would receive greater support than it had
received on any Termer occasion.
• Sir ROBERT PEEL, in explanation, denied having said that
the suftbrings of the country were such as could not be reme.
died. When it had been asserted that the people of en land
were in a starving condition. he had maintained that such was
not the fact. But he had always admitted and deeply lamented
the.existenee of severe distress. He had AU° okerved that, in
so complicated estate of society us that in this eotintry; there
could 'scareely be a time in which there would Wit be much local
sabring.
Mr, HIIIDGES explained.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL adverted to the deep and uninter.
'vital attention with which the Hon. and Learned Member for
Waterford had been heard—an attention almost unprecedented.
At the same time, whatever ability the Hon. anti Learned Gen.
Oman hail shown., he was -undoubtedly much mistaken on the
subject of the repeal of the Union with Ireland, With respect
to the outrages in Kent, their could he but doe opinion of their
atrocity ; tint he 'firmly believed that the peasantry were in go.
neral guiltless ; that they were loyal, and by no means disposed
to destroy the property of their employers. He trusted, that the
investigations which were now going why the Magistracy would
he attended with the most beneficial results; and that the laws
would soon be again respected. On the first day of last Session of
Parliament be -bad submitted to the House a motion, which,
hewever; had not received its sand ion, nor even the support of
the Hon. Member for Middlesex. It would however, have re.
merest a great many of the existing difficulties, and might have
prevented those conflagrations and other evils which had pro.
ceeded to so alarming an extent. With respect to what -had
fallen. from his Hon. Colleague about the smaller farmers- de-
I dining being sworn in as special constables he (Sir E. Knatch.
bull ) was happy to say that he had met with no such reluctance,
• Mr: 1101)0ES and SIR E. KNATCHBULL mutually ex.
plained.
The Amendment was then put, and negatived without a divi.
lion ; atter which the Address was agreed to.

Mr. HUME gave notice, that on the bringing up of the Be.
the
he should place on record his opinion as dissenting from
the Speech, His reason for voting fpr Minister: on the occasion
alluded to by the Hong Baronet, was because he believed that
they were in earnest in their professions of economy ; but if the
Hon; Baronet would new try him, he would find that bit opinion
was quite changed—(A latigh)—lor he was determined not again
to do any thing to keep In a Alinister that acted so much in op.
position to the wishes of the people.
The House then adjounied Twetsry Mtwirrits TWELVE.

v,xpp.Ess FROM .PARIS.
(From the Second Edit!qn of the A(ar !Ong hkrard.)

(prom the Me:sager des Chambres of 'Tuesday.)

fForu Austria “nnoutw that a popular tumult or [astir-
fect bad hralLen out fit losprupk, file capital of 1;1741, and
that th overnmont Was obligati to kOll4 6119
eral Re milts of
the Lint to preserve publia triuirittillity.

(From the Morning ikraid Paris Correspondent.)
Psats, Momper, Tiiitgit o'cttiost.—We have yet no published
Ministry. [
It is to be hoped that the, popular composition of the
abinet will pot be troubled by the obstinate refusal of M. Cali.
giv Miler tr. join it we know ofpropositions from the Duke
I' WellitiktOo to V44titilatist which prove his tirece to be of the
*riot of eotiter:revolutino in Enrnw. ,
the tuviiirons under the command of Tifina arid Valdes hays
bow mally rented, Thp fitaidtict dr thd first is suspected. With idle force tinder his command he cotilii vither Illiff conquered or
not fought Valdez was attacked by near ,UOI, tr(4,41, l'ht
Itoyalist threes in Navarre and Visray were near 10,000 men, and
'la.( $o pieces of cannon. -
...
..
The moveinent etif Gurrea and Vigo is stopped ) they have sus.
01,,vd po loss. 4n eltisloilla all is safe. The brave General
i,sruans is incapable of compromising the success4 mil,
of his arms, or
the interest-4th, cause entrUstial to 0
,rhii. „in linun its Spaniards Ebel they have nothiqg to 1,..-
pect, as they erronteitily thought; trbui the itemy i bet 'Mut ino
Tevolution is to beat:quires! in a popular .manner. ',-- ".
r
This twine a hohtlity there is no stock exchauses.