The Sun.
London, England, 1830-04-28 00:00:00

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amongst others, of Lord Plunkett, then Attorney-General
for Ireland. He differed entirely from the Hon. Gentle-
man with respect to the view he had taken of the general
question ; and be did so because he thought an established
church erne en integral part of the constitution, which
was essential to the well-being of the people, and was
necessary to be supported for the benefit of the State, by
the general contribution of all clateeet of the community.
If, therefore; ha IA assisted in preparing a Bill proceed-
ing on es principle different from the principle entertained
by the Hon. Gentleman, it was because he had a strong
feeling in favour of an established church, instead of
allowing different sects to support their own institutions,
without contributing to the eacpenses of that established
church. The Hon Member complained that the Bill now
under discussion gave larger soarers Of assessment to Pro-
testant vestries than they enjoyed under the former law.
He told the irD'Lle, that until this Bill was passed, the as-
sessments could only extend to the building and repairing
of churches, but that he (the Chancellor of the Euchequer)
had added the enlarging of 'churches, and the building and
repairing of chapels, from which parishioners were
previously exempted.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I did not say so.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then un-
derstood the Hon. Gentleman to ea', that so far as re-
lated to the releuiletieg and repairing of churches, the
previous la* gave the vestry a right of assessment. Now,
the Hon. Gentleman had insisted on the system of procur-
ing funds for building churches in England arid Ireland,
and he had stated particularly the hardships to which he
asserted the latter eteantry was subjected. It was true
that in England the vestries were not bound to levy assess-
ments for the building of parish churches ; but it was
equally true, that latterly in Ireland the parishioners were
not assessed for that purpose, In Ireland the funds came
from another soureeee-nattiely, the first fruits. Advances
were made to parishes from that source, and the sum so
advanced was afterwards repaid, without interest, by the
parishes. In the same way, when there Was a necessity
for erecting a church here, a sum of money was advanced
by the commiesioners, and the amount so advanced was
repaid out of the proper rates. But, whatever might be
the hardship of inconvenience which the Hon, Gentleman
said resulted from obliging the parishes in Ireland to re-
store the sums granted to them for such purposes, that evil
it should be observed did not arise under the Bill of which
the Hon. Member complained. The law on that subject
had its origin at an antecedent period; and by that law
it was directed, that money lent for the purpose of re-
building churches, Sic. should be repaid. He (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) in framing the Bill, did not over-
look that which the Hon. Gentleman stated on former os-
caeions to be the great and crying eeil of the system, but
which he appeared to have forgotten to-night. The first
and most prevalent evil under the for Mer law was, that the
Roman Catholic was compellable to take the office of church.
warden ; or, in other words, he might be forced to ap-
peer in a situation the duties of which he was not compe-
tent to discharge. For that hardship the Bill now com-
plained of furnished a remedy. It did not exempt the
Roman Catholic flenn any honour or advantag t which
might be derived from filling the office of churchwarden
(for it was sometimes said that it was connected with
honour and advantage, and sometimes the assertion was
denied), but it gave him the option of taking the situation
or of refusing it, just as he pleased; he was no longer
compellable to undertake these duties. Another objection
to the former Bill, but which was removed by the present,
although the Hon. Gentleman had omitted to mention it,
was this—that all matters of rate which it was deemed
necessary to levy for repairing, or beautifying a church,
were brought before an ecclesiastical tribunal, and the
church, in such eines!, was supposed to act as judge in its
own cause. What, then, was done in the Bill with respect
to this point? Why, that power was altogether with-
drawn. It could not now be said by the Roman Catholic
that cases of this kind were heard before an interested
tribunal. These cases were submitted to a tribunal of Ma-
gistrates, where Roman Catholics as well as Protestants
might sit in judgment. He would therefore say, that
this single change in the system, if there Were no other
alteration effected, showed clearly the feelings which actuated
the fremers of this measure It proved that they had no
Wish unduly to uphold the interests of the established
church by the influence of ecclesiastical, authority. The
Hon. Gentleman had said, that in the other parts of the
Bill provisions Were introduced, imposing heavy burdens
on the Roman Catholics. He admitted, that the clause
for enlarging churches was added to the provisions for
building and repairing churches. But why wee it added ?
Simply, because it was a compromise between existing
interests—sand it Certainly appeared reasonable that the
vestry, which had the power of building, rebuilding, or
repairing, should possess the minor power of enlarging,
which, in many instances, might render it unnecessary to
incur the greater expense of rebuilding. The Hon. Gen-
tleman's text objection was, that the Bill gave to the
Bishop full power, as he had stated on a former occasion,
to levy any sum of money he might think proper on the '
parish, and that such sum might be raised without any in-
terference on the part of the Roman Catholics. Now it
would be necessary for the House to consider in what case
that power was given. By the law of both countries, as
it stood at present, the parishioners were bound to keep
the parish church in repair; and so long as an establisher!
church was kept up, it must be so. Now if a church
were suffered to fall into decay, the Bishop had a right to
see that a rate was properly levied fur the purpose of hay-
it repaired. That was the law of this country. When
visit itions were made, it was the duty of the Bishop to
see that the necessary repairs of the church were effected ;
and if the parishioners did not think fit to make such re-
pairs, the Bishop here, as in Ireland, had a right to compel
them to do that which they ought to have done voluntarily.
Of course s rate of that description must, like other paro-
chial rates, be shared amongst all the parishioners. Such a
principle might not have existed in the statute law of this
country before, but it hail long formed a principle of the
ecclesiastical law that the Bishop should have a right to levy
a rate for proper repairs where it was necessary. The pre-
sent Bill transferred that power from the Ecclesiastical
Courts to another tribunal ; and in doing so, it had effected
any thing rather than the imposition of an additional bur-
den on the Roman Catholics. Then another objection
made by the Hon. Gentleman to the Bill was, that, when
a churchwarden proceeded against any parishioner, and was
cast, the parish were bound to defray his costs. He ad-
mitted that this was so; but as the individual acted under
the direction of the vestry, it would be very bard, should
the vestry have taken a wrong view of the question, that
the person acting in his official capacity should not be re-
munerated. He had thus gone over several of the provi-
sions of the Bill against which the Hon. Gentleman had
directed his complaints; and he thought, if the House had
done him the favour to listen to what he had said, that Ile
had shown that the present Bill had effected a great ame-
lioration in the former law. He had corrected a great
abuse which existed under the previous measure—that of
charging a gross sum as levied in the shape of rates, with-
out stating to what purpose or purposes they were applied.
Every item meat now be distinctly pointed out. Indeed,
the present Bill went further, for it provided that the ac-
counts should be open to the inspection of all the payers,
and it gave the right of appeal against the amount of the
rate, as well as against its particular appropriation. He
contended, with respect to the present Bill, that it was an
amelioration of the former law. He did not mean to say
that this or any other measure was susceptible of alteration
and improvement—(Hear)—but he could not allow the
Hon. Gentleman to introduce a Bill to amend the existing
Act on the ground of the enormities or abuses which he had
been pleased to assert had been generated by it. He should
therefore oppose the moth-n of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. S. RICE said the Right Hon. Gentleman had
risen to vindicate his Bill ; but the real and more practical
object which it was their duty to discuss was, whether a
case was not made out, even by the admission of the
Right Hon. Gentleman himself, which rendered it expe-
dient, without looking to the feelings and views of those
who framed the law, to alter and amend it. On the
part of those who were immediately connected with indi-
viduals affected by measures of this character, he thought
the House had a right to expect that a more distinct pledge
should be given—and that, too, without loss of time—by
his Majesty's Government, of their intention to propose
certain alterations in this measure. He confessed for one,
without meaning any disrespect to the Hon. Member for
Clare, that he should be glad to see the amendment of
the law taken up by the Government of the country, ra-
ther than by an individual.—( Hear, hear.)—The Hon.
Member for Clare appeared to agree with him in that sen-
timent ; and therefore he acquitted him (Mr. S. Rice) of
any disrespectful feeling.—(Hear.)—He entirely concur-
red in the sentiment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that, whatever defects were to be found in the Bill as it
now stood, such defects were not to be imputed to these
who introduced the measure to Parliament, or to those
who endeavoured to improve it. The whole spirit mani-
fested in the debates in Parliament on this subject was
evidently dictated by a desire to apply a remedy tip an acb
mitted evil ; and he must say that in many important
points that remedy was afforded by the Bill before them. But,
admitting that, was he, he would ask, to be therefore
precluded from voting for a measure to improve that
which was in some respects defective ? At the same time,
he would not be prevented from voting with the Chancellor
°f
the " G
Exchequer, provided that a pledge' wereiiven by
element that they would pay due att ntion to
"her repatdiess and he hoped the Right lion. Gentleman

would give him credit when he said, better remedies fos
the evil than those which had yet been proposed. On the
ground that the present law was capable of amendment,
an I because he thought it ought to be amended,--on this
ground, and after the gross violation of the law, such a•,
it was, that had taken place in Ireland, and holding in
view the neglect or the circular promulgated by the Right
[lon. Gentleman opposite on the subject,—be ti:night
Ministers bound to give immediate notice of their inten-
tion to propose an alteration and amendment of the law.
The present was a subject which excited more attention in
Ireland than many others of still greater importance : the
petitions upott the table proved that, The Legislature
was asked to amend a law which it was pretty generally
admitted required amendment, and he (Mr. Rice) should
therefore vote for the proposition of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Clare. In doing so, he did not mean to
pledge himself to go the full length which, it was pos-
sible, that Hon. Member might have in view ; he should
pledge timself to nothing more than an amewlment of the
Irish Vestries' Act, and that in the absence of a pledge
from Government.

Mr. MOORE was satisfied, that infinitely more excita-
tion would be prodticed in Ireland generally by an altera-
tion of the law, as suggested by the lion. Member fsi
Clare, than could be compensated by the soothing effect
which the Learned Gentleman expected from the change in
parishes where the numbers of dissenters from the esta•
blished church predominated. The Hon. Gentleman pro-
ceeded to say, that it was well known that there were
parts of Ireland where the Protestant inhabitants had no
parochial place of worship. In such cases, the Act of the
4th Geo. IV. gave the Bishop of the Diocess the power of
conferring upon the inhabitants a right of attending the
church of the adjoining parish ; and so long as circum-
stances required them to do so, and no longer, were they
to pay rates towatds the support of that church ; for
although the Bishop bad, to a certain extent, the power
to unite adjoining parishes, it was a power only to be ex-
ercised for good and wise purposes, and in eases where ne-
cessity required ; and as soon as a parish built a church for
its own use, the annexation fell to the ground, and the
rates payable to the other parish ceased. He denied that
there was any thing indefinite in the existing lave, which, it
was true, contemplated " the providing of all things neces-
sary for the celebration of divine service, according to the
rites and ceremonies of the church of England." This
was referred to all things required by the rules, and canons,
and rubric of the church, upon the extensive meaning of
which latter word " rubric" the Hon. and Learned
Member had rung the changes here arid elsewhere. The
Hon. Gentleman went on to say, that the meaning of the
term " rubric" was extremely simple, and that if the
Learned Member looked into Burn's ecclesiastical law, be
could find a definition of it.—(" Hear," and laughter.)—
In fact, the " rubric" was the directionS contained in the
book of Common Prayer with regard to the celebration of
divine service, and in old prayer books these directions
were frequently printed in red ink, and were therefore
termed the rubric.—(A laugh. )—The lion. Member con-
cluded by expressing his determination to vote against the
motion.
Sir J. NEWPORT said the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman who had just sat down thought it right to refer the
House to Burn's ecclesiastical law for the meaning of the
terms " rubric" and " canons of the church"—(Hear, and
laughter)—but the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
was content with issuing a circular as to what the rubric
required without referring to Burn's ecclesiastical law.
What was the result of this letter ? The result was, not
only that man) of the parishes treated it with levity,
but several of the incumbents said the Right Hon.
Gentleman had no authority to send such a communi-
cation, and one individual went the length of saying he
set it at naught. In one parish in Dublin, under the head
of matters " necessary for the celebration of divine ser-
vice," was a vote of 300/. agreed upon in vestry, and
granted to two curates for performing of early service, not
leaving it to the incumbent to provide for the payment
of his curates. Sums of money were voted for vestry-
chile, bellows-blowers to the organ—(Laughter)—organ-
turners, teachers of charity children, and other objects
never contemplated by the Act, and all this under pretence
of " things necessary for the celebration of divine service,
according to the rights and ceremonies of the church of
Englatcl." Such circumstances shelved the necessity of
guarding the Act against the possibility of misconstructions.
Having observed that he wished the assessments could be
provided for by other means than annual vestries, for the
purpose of avoiding the chance of excitement, and after
remarking upon the defects in the appeal system, the
Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by expressing a hope
that the Noble Lord (Lord Gower) would give an as-
surance of his intention to propose an amendment in the
existing law--(Hear)—and observed, that if till's sugges-
tion were not adopted, he should feel bound to support the
motion of the Hon. Member for Clare.

Lord F. L. GOWER considered it his duty to oppose
the motion of the Hen. Member for Clare, and in doing
so would take the opportunity to explain very briefly his
views of the subject. When first he undertook the duties
of the office which he now held, he entered upon them with
impressions and notions as to this law which had been con-
siderably mitigated and changed by what be hadobserved
since he went to Ireland. He was prepared to find a ease
of remarkable failure and grievance, but he must say that
his impression, arising from recent experience, and from
what he had seen of the working of the law in the coun-
try, was, that it was a law which rather admitted than
urgently required amendment. It was not necessary for
him, after the explanation offered to the House by his
Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who,
from his share in the enactment of the measure, was much
better to explain its details than lie, to go into the subject
minutely. The Hon. Member for Limerick must excuse
him if, with the impressions now existing in his mind, he
felt considerable caution as to pledging himself to the im-
mediate introduction of an enactment on the subject. He
had formed an opinion with respect to various details of the
Act, and that was, that some of them might perhaps be
amended and improved; but, bearing in his recollection all
the suggestions offered on the subject, he had not yet been
able to make up his mind as to the course he should take, or
the extent to which he might be able to adopt these recom-
mendations. The Hon. Gent. said it was a fit subject for a
committee up stairs; that alone entitled him (Lord L.
Gower) to decline giving the pledge which he so urgently
pressed for. He felt it his duty to deal candidly and fairly
with his Hon. Friend, and to say, that if he were disposed
to rest his vote on the hope that the Government, would
in the course of the present session, bring forward an
enactment on the subject, anxious as be felt to have his
Hon. Friend's vote along with him, he could not purchase
that vote by offering the pledge which the Hon. Member
required, because in doing so he might only be deceiving
his Hon. Friend and the House. If he understood the
Hon. Member for Clare aright, his proposed alterations
would amount to an admission of rate-payers of all de-
scriptions to privileges from which they were excluded by
the present act, and the Hon. Gentleman appeared to
think that the danger and inconvenience that might once
have resulted from that course was now reduced to almost
nothing, by the good feeling existing among all classes on
the other side the water. He was happy to say this good
feeling did exist in a great degree on many subjects, and
he could wish that the temperate tone of the present dis-
cussion had prevailed in all discussions of the subject, and
in regard to all matters relating to Ireland. Such a cir-
cumstance might have almost reconciled him to the
Learned Gentleman's proposition; but the tone and tem-
per referred to was not the tone of feeling that always
prevailed in Ireland on this or other subjects, as the Hon.
illember for Clare well knew.—(Hear.)--Under all the
circumstances of the case, he would not give the pledge
required at the bands of Government, and felt bound to
oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Clare.
Mr. TRANT could not conceal from himself what the
Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. O'Connell) had really in
view. The Hon. and Learned Member had said that lie
should not at present propose any alteration in the system
which made those of one religion pay for the support of
another religious. establishment. It was impossible not
to understand whither this langusge tended. He was not
surprised at this language, for he had always said, that as
soon as a singe Catholic was introduced into that House,
that Catholic would attempt to—he did not know how
to describe it—(Hear and laughter) ;—but he believed he
should convey his meaning by saying that that Catholic
would attempt to undermine what the Catholics called an
intrusive church. This, in fact, was the object of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, though he couched it under
the name of an amendment in the Vestries Act. The li
Hon. Member for Limerick, too, was very nice in wishing
these matters to be regulated by an Act of Parliament
which had long since been settled by the Canons and the
rubric. The people would look at this with great jealousy,
for the people were not, as many of them were, philosophers•
Hear," and laughter.)--He thought they ought to
look with the greatest vigilance at any proposition with
respect to the established church, coming from a member
of another church.

Mr. PEEL said, that notwithstanding the laughter
with which some parts of the speech of the Hon. Member
for Dover had been received, he must say that he entirely
concurred with the Hon. Member in the doctrine that they
ought to look with great vigilance at any proposition re-
specting religion which came from those who dissented
from the established church. The. Hon. and Learned
Member had said that he would not, at Present,- propose
that Roman Catholics or Dieseuters should be relieved from

tl:e payment of church rates. He could have wished that
the Hon. and Learned Member had brought forward his
views on this subject now, in order that they might have
been decided upon at once.—(Hear, bear.)—He was not
to he led aside by the plausible argument that as the Vestry
Act reqtiired ailiendnient, they might allow this Bill to be
brought in, becatise in the borhiiihtee they should be able
to make it merely a Bill for the alteration of those paitS of
the Vestry Act that required alteration. It was quite evi-
dent that the main object of the Hon. and Learned Mem-
bers was to make this alteration—namely, that the Roman
Catholics and the Dissenters should vote as to the imposi-
tion of churcharatee. Now to such a principle he was de-
cidedly opposed, lie thought that if it Were acted upon,
it would produce endless confueion, and that that harmony
of which the Hott. and LeStated Member boasted would at
once be destroyed, He thought they Weft lidded to pit-
vide for the maintenance of that part of the established
church of the United Kingdom which was situated in Ire-
land. It was not properly called the Irish church ; there was
no such church ; but that which was so called was a part
of the Established Episcopal Church of the United King-
dom.—(Hear, hear.)—Great reforms had been effected in
that part of the church, and the only difficulty they had to
contend with was the want of a sufficient number of
places of worship. This country could not be expected to
do more than it had done, and was still doing. They
must look to the landed proprietors of Ireland for the rest.
(Hear, hear.)—How, then, were these expenses to be de-
frayed? He knew of no other means than a parochial
rate, and to allow Catholics to hare a voice on rates for
building and repairing chuches would, in his opinion, be
productive of the greatest inconvenience. The lion. and
Learned Member recommended that the Court of King's
Bench in Ireland should decide in disputes on such mat-
ters. He thought, however, that the Court had already
enough to do, and that the Judges were not proper per-
sons to decide whether a church should or should not be
built in a certain parish. He was opposed, therefore, to
the main principle of the Hon. and Learned Member, and
could not give his consent to the motion. He admitted
that the Vestries' Act required amendments, and that the
subject should receive the fullest attention of the Govern-
men—(Hear, hear)—but he could not purchase the sup-
port of any Hon. Member on the present occasion, by
pledging himself to bring in a-measure to amend the Ves-
tries' Act, because he was so decidedly opposed to the pre-
sent motion.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL claimed the privilege of reply. The
object of his Bill was two-fold, and the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had shown that he was only opposed to half of it.
His object was, first, that Catholics should not pay rates
without voting upon them ; secondly, to amend an Act
which the Right Hun. Gentleman had acknowledged
ought to be amended. It was unfair that one sect should
tax another—it was unfair that the one should tax the
eighty; and it was only reasonable that the Irish church,
which was comparatively the richest church in the world,
should pay its own expenses. He did not deserve the
taunt of the Hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Trans). Ile
knew of no difference of religious persuasion, except in
the temple of his God. He was there, because the people
of Clare had sent him there by their unbought euffrages.
He brought forward a case which had nothing to do with
religion, but which was an affair of pounds, shillings, and
pence ; and he appealed to the House of Commons against
a system of extortion and practical injustice.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and a division
took place, when the numbers were—
For the motion 47 I Against it 177
Majority against the motion
AFFAIR AT TERCEIRA.

On our return to the Gallery we found
Sir J. MACKINTOSH on his legs, suggesting to his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Grant) the necessity of post-
poning to some more convenient day the important motion
of which he had given notice for that evening.
Mr. C. GRANT fully concurred in the propriety of the
conversation, but his only difficulty was to find an open
day. The Hon. Members whoee motions stood for Thurs-
day had all given way to him with the exception of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Knaresborough, whom he
was glad to see in his place, and from whom he would
receive it as a personal obligation, if be also would post-
pone his.
Mr. BROUGHAM would most willingly oblige his
Right Hon. Friend ; but his difficulty, also, was to find
an open day for his motion on the reform of the law.
His motion was not for going into a corner of the question
but into the whole question of cheap, effectual, and con-
venient administration of justice. If he postponed his
motion, he did not know any day before the middle of
June on which he could fix it.
Mr. C. GRANT asked Mr. Peel if he could assist him.
Mr. PEEL would most willingly, only he could not
put off the public business which stood for Friday.
Lord J. RUSSELL would postpone his motion for re-
form, which stood for the 6th of May, if the Hon. Mem-
ber for Clare would only'postpone his motion, which stood
for the same day.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I think the question of reform
the most important of all, therefore I cannot consent to
postpone it.—(A

Mr. C. GRANT would leave it to the House whether
he should being it on to-morrow.--(Loud cries of " No.")

After some conversation, it was then fixed that the mo
tion should stand for to-morrow, with the understanding
that it should commence early.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second
reading of this Bill.
Mr. JONES objected to the Bill at that hour. The
Bill itself was objectionable in most parts, particularly in
those which referred to the Welsh judicature. It was
divided into two parts, which were not at all necessarily
connected, and between those was introduced a measure
not connected with either—namely, the abolition of ar-
rest for debt for any sum less than 100/. Many who
approved of one part would disapprove of the other. In-
deed, the Bill taken altogether was the greatest skeleton
of a Bill he had ever seen. It would take six months in a
Committee to put flesh on its bones.—( Hear, and a
laugh. )--It looked as if the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had put together all the marginal notes of a whole
volume of statutes, and put them together without order
or form. Such a Bill he had never. seen in that House,
except it was a Poor Bill which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman himself had introduced some few years ago,
and which, though he had been two years in preparing it,
appeared such an abortion when laid on the table of the
House, that it was almost immediately withdrawn. The
Bill before the House was full of absurdities and inconsis-
tencies ; he could mention several, but one or two would
suffice. The Bill left to the King in Council the power
to consolidate two shires in Wales as might be deemed ne-
cessary, and thus one Sheriff was to act for the two—the
Sheriff acting in one county, and his Sub-Sheriff in the
other. But he should be glad to know, if the King's
writ were to be directed to the Sheriff to return a Knight
of the Shire for each county, how he was so to divide
himself as to avoid the penalties which would fall on him
for not attending to each as directed? Then, under this
Bill, there was no way by which a person in Wales could
levy a fine and suffer a recovery ; so that all property
would be at a stand still in that country. On the whole
he would say, that a greater jumble of incongruities he
never saw put together in the shape of a Bill ; and if the
question of the second reading was pressed at this late
hour (nearly eleven - o'clock), and when many Welsh
Members had left the House, not expecting that it would
be brought on, he should feel it necessary to move the
question of adjournment.
Mr. PEEL observed, that the opposition of his Hon.
Friend to the Bill was certainly unfair. If his Hon.
Friend had objections to parts of the Bill, the Committee
was the place to discuss them, and it would therefore be
more proper to let the Bill go into Committee, and discuss
them after.

Mr. O'CONNELL objected to the Bill, and the present
was the proper time for making the objection, because it
was too late an hour to enter upon the consideration of a
measure of such importance. There were parts of the
Bill which had no connection whatever with each other;
one part relating to Wales, and another to regulations at
Westminster-hall. The appointment of the three Judges
to the Courts in Wales had no necessary connection with
the Courts in Westminster, for if the business were
equalized in the Courts of King's Bench, Common Pleas,
and Exchequer, there would be no need of any additional
Judges. He objected to the Bill, also, because of its abo-
lition of some parts of the Welsh jurisdiction ; for in-
stance, the sending up every Welshman to the Court of
Chancery here, who had any equity business, was an in-
convenience to the people of that country, to.which they
ought not to be subjected ; and if the Hon.• Member did not
move under these circumstances the adjournment of the
House, he (Mr. O'Connell) would.
The Order of the Day for the second reading was then
read, when

Mr. T. P. WILLIAMS moved as an amendment that
the House do now adjourn.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, if he postponed the
Bill from to-night, did not know on what night or day he
could fix ; and many Members expected that the Bill
would be brought on to-night. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who had shown so much seal in defence of the
Welsh judicature as to travel out of his way to make a
personal attack on him, which certainly reflected very
little credit on his good taste, had himself not pointed out
any day on which the second reading could be fixed, if

\, \

postponed from to-night. The fact was, 'the Hon. and
Learned Gentlenidil wished to defeat the Bill altogether,
but he might have taken d ititrk more fair and manly
course, in meeting it on proper groiriull. He had ob-
jected to the appointment of three Judges in 4Veetinin-
ster-hall, as not connected with any alteration in did
Welsh judicature, but their appointment would be ren-
dered .rieeegsary by the removal of the eight Welsh Judges.
He (the AltOreet-Clerreral) was not so prejudiced in fa-
vour of this Bill, as id great objection to divide
it into two, with the understanding aid flip tilseussion on
each part should come on on the same evening' ; lift fitc,
Hon. and Learned Member must know that that could
not be done except in a Committee. He trusted the
House would defeat this attempt to get rid of the Bill in
an unfair way.
Mr. T. P. WILLIAMS denied that his object in mov-
ing the adjournment was to defeat the Bill : his great
objection at present *as to the lateness of the hour at
which it was brought forward.

Mr. F. LEWIS, as a Welsh Member, did not feel ertlA
on to support the motion of adjournment, the object of
which seemed to be to defeat the Bill.

Colonel WOOD, as the representative of a Welsh county,
had no hesitation in saying that it was the decided opinion
of the best informed persons, professional and unprofes-
sional, in the principality, that the time had arrived when
An alteration should take place in the Welsh judicature,
Itlateh should assimilate it to that of England. There
were great evils attending the present system, which ought
to be got rid of ; but if there was any reason which had
disinclined persons in Wales to this change, it was the
proposition of the law commissioners of dividing the
counties. That proposition, he believed, was abandoned ;
but there was another proposition equally objectionable,
that of consolidation with an English county. There were
serious objections to such consolidation. It was, for exam-
ple, almost impossible to get the lower orders i n Wales to
give their evidence in English ; they delivered it almost
uniformly in Welsh ; they did not feel competent to give
evidence on oath touching life in the English language.
He (Colonel Wood) had been told that important causes
had been 'carried into English counties for trial, where
Welsh witnesses were examined through an interpreter ;
but these related to property not to life. This was an in-
superable objection to that consolidation of Welsh with
English counties which the Bill empowered his Majesty in
Council to direct ; and he should take the sense of the
House on this part of the Bill, by moving that it be ex-
punged. It had not been denied in the House that the
Welsh judicature required amendment. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Clare had suggested that the Welsh
Judges should be ambulatory, and choose their Circuits,
as in England. But this was not the first time such an
idea had occurred ; and he (Colonel Wood) would tell the
Hon. and Learned Member the objection to the proposal.
The Welsh judicature travels with a Chancery bar, and by
adopting the ambulatory system, one Judge would have
one part of a cause, another Judge another part, and a
third would have to pronounce judgment. The proposal,
therefore, in the present system of Welsh judicature was
impracticable. By the existing law, a plaintiff in a suit
where the property is above 501. had the power of re-
moving the cause into the nearest English county, without
the ability of the defendant to prevent it. There seemed
to be no objection to send English Judges into each county
town, dividing Wales into two Circuits, North and
South, and proceed with the Assizes there as in Westmin-
ster-hall. Only one objection had been urged to this mea-
sure—namely, that there would be no bar. But it would
be time enough to make this objection when the inconve-
nience was felt, and when the gentlemen in the princi-
pality complained of a dearth of barristers. If this mea-
sure was adopted, he was of opinion that many of the
objections to the Bill would vanish.

Mr. BATLEY thought that the present system in the
principalities ought to be no longer retained.
Mr. E. DAVENPORT was favourable to the principle
of the Bill ; but its benefits were counterpoised by the mis-
chiefs which accompanied them. The Bill professed to be
remedial, whereas it inflicted serious inconveniencies.
Amongst other changes, it was intended to abolish the
Chief Justiceship of Chester, that rat-trap which offered
encouragement to apostacy in the profession. But the Bill,
nevertheless, proposed to continue to Lancaster and Dur-
ham their Courts, which were not superior in antiquity
and utility to that of Chester, the privilige belonging to
which was important. Its abolition would substitute an
expensive and dilatory system of law, for a cheap and ex-
peditious one on the spot.
After a few words from Mr. dorms, the amendment was
withdrawn.

On the question for the second reading of the Bill,
Mr. JONES "observed, that the Hon. Member for
Brecon (Colonel Wood) was wrong in his statement that
a plaintiff could remove a cause from a Welsh to an English
tribunal. No cause could be removed but by a certiorari
from the Courts at 'Westminster, which was not granted
but on special grounds, and in point of fact none were now
granted. An application had lately been made to the
Lord Chancellor, in a case relating to land, which the
Chancellor dismissed on the ground that the question could
be equally well tried in Carmarthen. It had been conceded
by the Commissioners themselves, on whose report the Bill
was founded, that the Courts of Westminster-hall required
reform ; then why were not these Courts reformed before
the Welsh judicature was swept away, and the English
system substituted, with all its imperfections on its head ?
Another objection to the measure was, that compensations
would be due to the officers in the Welsh Courts ; and his
Majesty's Ministers ought to bring in a Bill first to com-
pensate those officers before they took away their places.
He (Mr. Jones) should like to know the probable amount
of these compensations ; he had heard it estimated at
100,0001. He could not see the great advantage of the
introduction of the English jurisdiction. The Law Com-
missioners had had very imperfect means of inquiry. They
were not on the spot ; but they sent queries, and received
answers in writing. " The Commissioners (said the Hon.
Member) seat me, amongst others, no less than fifty
queries ; I answered them best I as could, and so much to
their satisfaction, apparently, that they sent me a letter of
thanks, and fifty more queries, which I answered also. I
did not seek these gentlemen—they sought me. What was
my surprise, therefore, to find it stated in their report, that
what I said came from a prejudiced or self-interested per-
son !" The Commissioners appeared to be extremely igno-
rant of all matters in the principality of 'Wales, from never
having been there. In the report there was a memorial
purporting to be from the principal proprietors of Cardigan.
Upon looking over the names, he (the Hon. Member)
found the majority of them to be farmers and freeholders,
under the only principal inhabitants, four in number, who
had signed the memorial. In Carmarthen, the agent to
Lord Cawdor had got a few names to the memorial ; when,
at a public meeting, only seventeen hands were held up in
favour of it. But it was said, let the excellences of the
Welsh judicature be introduced into the English. He,
however wished Ao see those exeellencies introduced before
the Welsh judicature should be annihilated. What was
to become of the records of Wales, the very props of pro-
perty in that country ? If the present officers were dis-
missed without remuneration, they, of course, would no
longer attend to their preservation. It would be a great
hardship on a prisoner to be removed sixty or fifty miles
farther than he was at present obliged to go, and to be
tried at a great distance from all his connections and wit-
nesses. All he hoped was, that the present Bill would not
be forced upon Wales as a boon, and that Ministers would
pause before they annihilated the Welsh judicature.
Mr. C. WYNN of the principle of the Bill completely
approved, though he should wish to have a full explanation
of the manner in which the Attorney-General meant to
carry it into effect. The principle was to complete the
union between England and Wales, and give to Wales the
benefit of English judicature. At present it was impos-
sible to obtain Welsh Judges without paying them salaries
far exceeding the duties they performed. They only exe-
cuted their offices three weeks in summer and three weeks
in autumn, and for this duty they were paid their whole
annual salary, the country deriving no other advantage
from them but what they performed in those six weeks.
Now he thought, that the only way to make a Judge effi-
cient was to give him constant employment ; for, unless
he had constant employment% he was likely to forget what-
ever legal knowledge he might once have possessed. What
his Right Hon. Friend (Colonel Wood) had said about the
power of a rich suitor instituting his cause in one of the
Courts of Westminster, had been completely misunder-
stood. His Hon. Friend did not mean that the suitor
could remove his cause to the Courts in Westminster after
it had begun to be heard in Wales, but that he could if he
chose commence his action at once at Westminster. The
Hon. Member concluded by saying that the Bill had been
drawn up hastily, and that more time was necessary for its
consideration. He, however, thought that the Bill ought
to be allowed to pass the present stage, because it was on
every hand admitted that the appointment of the Welsh
Judges should not be made in the manner it now was.
Mr. RICE TAEVOR said, there were obviously great
inaccuracies in the Bill before the House ; and he hoped
that it would hereafter assume a very different shape.
Yet he was bound to deal with the Bill as it now stood
before the House. It was said that it was impossible to
have three new Judges added to the twelve in Westmin-
ster-hall, unless the Welsh judicature was given up, and
so it was to be sacrificed for that change. But he could .
assure the House that the Principality did not think the
change any benefit. It was then stated that Wales could
not, under the present system, have Judges such as she

y:

might to have ; but he begged to refer the House to!
list of eminent Judges who had distinguished that conewa;
and he would then task if that assertion was true?
Government chose to exert itself to find men
,icoroPeti
to fill the situation of Welsh Judges, he had no doel)..eil
-t§otild find, among the rising members of the bar, s 6U;
cient number of individuals of talent to fill 'those sit''
tions. The removal of the Courts of Judicature would"
a great inconvenience and additional expence to all pod
concerned in law proceedings. He trusted the Bill w°ty
contain no provision for the consolidation of countie,
apprehension of such a measure having given rise tool°
of the opposition towards the present Bill.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL admitted the Bill
in an imperfect state, which he attributed to the ptiDf
having neglected to print several corrections which 17,
made in the margin of the engrossed copy. His deft
was to have the Bill read a second time to-night, 6P/te
mitted, pro forma, for the purpose of inserting those !,
rections, and then recommitted, when its principle 04,
be discussed. The chief principle of this Bill was t43'"
sithilate the practice of the Courts in England. and 01,1
and when the Bill came to be committed he would
allow full time for the consideration of its detail. 41
Sir J. OwiN and Mr. WILLIAMS were against 1,
principle of this Bill.
Mr. BROUGHAM vindicated the conduct of the voi
Commissioners, in their selection of the towns ort
Northern Circuit, from the insinuation levelled .at deo
an Hon. Gentleman opposite. Their views; he said, of
not been directed with any view to secure the sties° .
of the profession to which they belonged. He 04°0
mended the establishment of local Courts.
Mr. O'CONNELL supported the recommendatiodo

After a few words from the ATTORNICY-GENER.O
Mr. Hump., the Bill was read a second time, and ord6
be committed on Monday next.
The other Orders of the DPr were then dispuseclof;
the House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.

LIS'
OF FORTY-SEVEN, WIIC
FOR LEAVE TO BRI:
ACTS.
Al rhorp, Viscount '
Buller, C.
Baring, A.
Baring, W. B.
Blandford, Marquis
Ilenett, John
Clements, Viscount
Clive, E. B.
Cave, R. 0.
Cavendish, W.
I)uncombe. T.
Dundas, Hon. T.
Dawson, A.
Davenport, E.
Easthope, J.
Ewart, W.
Fazakerley, J. N.

rF OF THE MINOI
0 VOTED FOR THE MOTI
INC; IN A BILL 10 ♦MI

TITY .041
lON or j4ic o•co•
sly D 7;to Isis"

Graham. Sir J.
Guise, Sir W.
Grattan. James
Hobhouse J. C
Howick, Lord
Knight, IL
Kennedy, T. F.
Lambert, J. S.
Monck, J
• • •
Macintosh, Rt. Hon.

•
Newport, 511.3'
Ord, W.
Philips, Sir G. .
Power,' R.
Parnell, Sir 11.
Palmer, C. F. (
Ponsonby,
Robinson, Sir LP
Rice, T.
Stanley, Hon'.. v
Talbot, R. W-
uite, H.. M.-
Wilson, lit- 11.--
Warburton,'

Sir J.
Macdonald, Sir J.
Marshall, J.
Maberly, Col.
Martin, John
Macaulcy, W.
Morpeth, Viscount

TELLSOL.
O'Connell,
Hume, Jose.

SHAKSPEAREAN FESTIVAL.

THIRD DAY.

(FROM OUR. COARESPONDICXT.)
Stratford-upon-Avon, Monday Night",,,
This day was devoted more especially role",
grandest exhibition of the Shakspearean job
-The -The weather was most propitious, and, as was `lOl
pected, many thousands of persons entered the ,t5(4,1,0
at an early hour, principally from Birmingham, ,hit
wick, and Leamington. The London and °'thi
coaches were also crowded with visitors; and
news of the success of the commencement Of
festival was evidenced by the throngs of pers.,:
who had not joined in the rejoicings last week.
pageant of Shakspeare's dramatic characters
repeated, but on a scale far exceeding that of
day last. On that day the rainy weather preyer',
a full development of the intentions of the Cell
:,
tee, and the means they had to fulfil them. `,
day the number of characters, and the richness 01
dresses and decorations, far surpassed the process:,
of Friday. Without repeating the order of
pageant we merely state, that it. was increase,,
the number of two hundred characters, severs“,
horseback; and that some of the dressea..were Y 3,7,
at from fifty to two hundred pounds. hide!'
more gorgeous spectacle can scarcely be:tire:4lf'
" Julius Caesar was again personated' by- Ch',l
Wright," or rather " Julius Caesar -Chanel,
Wright." His appearance as "'the foremost lie
in all the world" did him great credit. He is ,
" great man" here to a certainty. •The process'
was three hours in passing through and about '
town.
Soon after the return of •the. procession to
Raymond's pavilion a grand ,dinner ,-was,servea,
at the White Lion inn, where the .Mayor pregs!
supported, as on Friday, by all the influentiall
sons in the town. -
After the usual and appropriate toasts had 13.,,j
drunk, the health of the Mayor was proposed,
returned thanks in an address . expressive of hi ",
s
knowledgment and the deep interest in: the 01
of a club which was honoured by the Sovereign)
had for its object to perpetuate the merooriil
Shakspeare in a manner that gratified the Pit,
empire. .
• • •
" Mr. Raymond, the .manager of the theatts d
was drunk with acclamation., In returning OW
he read the following letter from Mr. Wright :-""gi
" Mr. Charles Wright begs to offer his humble Wit./
the Committee, of the. Royal Shakspearean Club Ora
very handsome and classical mdruier ,in which they YP,
managed the grand national tribute paid•to memosei
Shakspeare, and begs the club to.accept his inclosed /
scription of 51., and at • the same time to assure then,
he shall always consider his person, his interest, sodef
property at the command of so respectable a body of
tlemen. •

" Charles Wright begs to communicate to the (19,
mittee that to have dined with them to-day would ei
formed an, epoch in the proudest (lay of his life ; but
cumstances of a nature which will not admit of
prevent him enjoying eo great a. gratification."
When the health of Mr. Gwinnett was
there was loud and long-continued cheering) ts)
gentleman having eminently entitled himself P
consideration of the warmest feelings of the chip
)
Mr. GIVINNETT then rose and said—" Gentler'
give me leave to speak. I- will be brief," for l
reasons. The first is, " for I have neither wit'',
worth, nor words,"' " nor the power of :speecr),
move your hearts." The 'second is, I do not ;/
to give you opportunity to say that I "
infinite deal of nothing,' or to prove to you
my " reasons are like two bushels of chaff 'lf
may seek all day ere you find them," How 0,
have merited this compliment is not for me ley
termine, yet I may be allowed to say I have 8"/
"to do the state some service." I have, as firpi
my capacity, and ardent zeal, and, a most chrs°,9
anxiety for the success of the club, endeavoUre!,
discharge its duties with credit•to- myself and "If
faction to all parties. Whatever have bees tbSil
bouring, the anxieties, and the responstbilitie,
the situation, the approbation and, the number/
marks of kindness I have received have not 0
recompenced me, but left a considerable balanel
my favour. For " your great graces heaped 41.
me," I can nothing render but my heartfelt throe'
When I was appointed secretary, I accepted le
office with a full determination to fulfil its dutivl
the utmost of my power, to " lay my serviety
your feet," and to " dedicate myself to your SIV
pleasure," for the furtherance of the object
'
club had in view; that is, doing something 0
the adopted birth ay of oUr most graCious Ssol
reign, who is as great in. mind as noble in per oi
The picture before me of his Majesty reminds
of the words of our immortal poet_
" An eye like Mars to; threaten and command;
A station like the herald.Merctuft;
New lighted on a heaven-kissing hill;
A combination and a form indeed;-
Where every god did seem to sef.hia seal,
To give the mind assurance of the Man.' „t'
Mr. Gwinnett 'concluded a neat sirul.
speech by expressing his thanks, amidst li3nd sad
served applause.
The healths of the.several persons. who- have
sisted in the festival were afterwards drank, anu,
meeting separated at an early hour to attend
masquerade. h 0"
The masquerade in the pavilion in "the R°,'ol
market was one of the most iriterestirsj imusetll-4
of the kind we have ever seen. Thera- wire
1,000 persons present, and there was 'not
that offensive breach of decorum too ofted witn,- if.
at similar exhibitions in London. The.cholic to
i
were most numerous and diversified; Int additi6:oll
many of the representatives of Shakspeare's 10.164)1
in the pageant there were many admirably-saltol