The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-09 00:00:00

hoh, oh, and hear, hear)—its people were so brought down been twenty-three months incarcerated, without haying fact. Both Mr. Odo Russell and the French General were
in the social scale by priestly tyranny and a moat abomin- been tried or even interrogated, on suspicion of being speaking of things of which they were not eyewitnesses.
able civil government, that it would take generations before a revoiutionie.. On leaving that cell he had n sur- Mr. Cdo Russell had not seen the brigands. The French
the people would be able to enjoy the blessings ot freedom, mutated by a crowd of similar priteners rig oot General could not deny from his own knowlege that they
(Oh, oh, and cheers) They might deny or impeach the " Why are we in prison ? why are we not ju , d e'' An teed passed. Each spoke from authority. Mr. Odo Russell
statement of a gentleman like Mr. Odo Russell, and con- appeal made to the governor of the prison 1 the state- said be would net press his information against that of the
demo what he had done, but he honoured that gentleman ment on his part that he deeply regretted to say that he had French General, but my hon. tritiad the Under-Secretary
for preferring the humiliation of withdrawing his statement no less than eighty-three prisoners confined, all° had never stated that in which I concur—namely, his belief that the
than, by substantiating h, have to give up his authors_ been convicted or even preliminarily examined, Many of information given to Mr. Odo Russell was more correct
(oh, oh, and cheers)—and eubject them to those penalties these prisoners were most miserable objects, and not at all than that which had been given to the French General
which would be sure to fall on them. Mr. Odo Russell, likely to be dangerous to a Liberal Government. Ouleav- (Hear.) 1 here was another point. The hon, baronet who
he said solemnly, had justified his statement, and shown ing the prison they inscribed their names in the books, in criticised the pamphlet of my
right hon. friend the Chancel-
and proved that what he said was true. Was it possible, accordance with the rules of the place. After mentioning for of the Exchequer said that Poerio was an imaginary
therefore, with the present state of things, that Naples the courtesy of the officials, and the cleanliness of the build- person, whom my right hon. friend had dressed up with
should be kept quiet, remembering what had been her con- ing, they appended their protest that they could not help dramatic effect and surrounded with circumstances which
dition under the dehhtable state of her former Government. observing with regret that so many persons were detained never took place. I have another Poerio—a real Poerio,
It was a ease of brigandage, and not -civil war, end though there untried, many of them uninterrogated, and not know- who was in England, and from whose lips 1 heard a corn-
the hon. member had quoted the statement of some of the ing from the authorities the cause of their imprisonment. plete and accurate confirmation of everything stated by my
members of the Italian Parliament to show it was the tat_ After he had left the prison he began to have misgivings of right hon. friend. (Cheers.) Therefore I quote my living
ter, he would remind him that there were gentlemen in Op- the blitsful enjoyment of liberty by the Neapolitans. In the Poetic against the aerial Poerio who the hon. baronet some-
position at Turin as well as in London, who often made second prison he visited, which was the debtors' prison, he how or other imagined was a creature of my right hon.
statements they could not prove, and cared little whether found amongst the inmates who were confined for debt two friend's mind. (Cheers.) Ido not complain of the debate
they could or not. (Oh, oh, and hear.) It was impossible men who had been convicted and sentenced—one to it:lyd- which has taken place. (Hear.) lam not one of those who
to find in Naples an honest man who had in any way sonment for life for homicide, and the other fourteen years think that it is beyond the functions of this house to discuss
been connected with the old regime—(oh, oh)—or any one, for forgery. There were also one bishop and five priests any subjects, any matters, any affairs in any part of the
who had had any experience in governments, that under. there, neither of whom had been informed for what he was world which members may think deserving of attention and
stood the action of an independent government, and it was confined, ar.d one of whom was over seventy years of age, discussion in this house. (Hear, hear.) The members of
to that fact was to be attributed the present state and con• who was kept on the prison diet of one meal a day with cold this house may say—
dition of the Neapolitan gaols- The Government endea • water. He next visited the women's prison, where he found " Homo sum ; human/ nihil ame alienum puto."
voured to catty out trial by jury, but it had failed, from a large number of women confined for their political sym- I think we may be satisfied to discuss every matter which
their inability to find Neanolitans ready and willing to carry Pal hies. (Hear, hear.) The most ridiculous cas 3 was that bears a general interest in the affairs of Europe and theworld,
out their plans, and the delay occasioned thereby had caused of three females—three unhappy sisters—who had been con- and that discussion is very useful. (Hear, hear.) Although
the gaols to remain so full. With regard to the state of the fined for twenty-two months, because, as they learnt ten we may hear many things, as we have heard to-night, to
prisons, he believed there was an entry in the book of one months before, when they were taken before the magistrate tally wrong in argument, mistaken in point of feeling, and
of them, signed by a noble lord (Lord Henry Lennox), they were suspected of having hung a Bourbon flag out of a leading to conclusions entirely inconsistent with fact, yet
speaking of the excel ent manner in which the Prison was window, but which in reality were the bed sheets that they nevertheless, those statements are met by counter state-
,
kept, and he hoped to hear a repetition of that fact from the had hung out to dry. (Hear, and laughter.) And with those meats at the time, as they have been this evening, and the
noble lord, if he had not been converted from his opinion who were confined for political offences were associated wo- conflict of opinions leads at last to the establishment of
since his return to this country. Some were no doubt in an men of the lowest class and of the most ahaladonedcharacterh truth. When debates go forth to the world, and are read
unsatisfactory state in Naples, and others in a satisfactory When he visited the fourth prison, the gaoler informed him with attention—as I trust everything which has passed this
condition, and the Italian Government had expressed their that it was capable of accommodating 650, but that 1,359 evening will be read with attention by all who take an
regret that the prisons of Naples were not generally in that were at that time incarcerated within its walls. The result interest in the subject—that conflict of statements and
state they should wish to see them. But their excuse was of the overcrowding had been that a virulent typhus fever opinions elicits truth and tends to good in its ultimate
that if the old agents were employed it would be impossible had broken out amongst the inmates, and that if under the result. (Hear, hear.) Therefore lam not objecting to any-
he eradicate the vices of the old system ; and if Piedmontese circumstances he wished to inspect the prison he could do thing which has passed in the course of this debate. nor do I
gaolers were introduced the tuna] cry would be got up that so. He went in, and he found in one cell eight or nine priests, object to the setting up the affairs of Italy for a free, fair,
the Sardinians were bl ought in everywhere. Formerly, the about 14 laymen suspected of political offences, and 10 or 12 and full discussion. (Cheers,) It has been a most interest-
state of the Italian prisons and hospitals—with the excep_ convicted felons. In the next cell there were about 157, the ing debate. We have heard most admirable speeches. I
tion of those of Naples— were most creditable to the dab_ greater part of whom were untried. During the whole day must compliment the noble lord on a most eloquent and
rent governments. Especially so were those of Piedmont (with the exception of a short time they were allowed for admirable speech—(hear, hear)—a speech which does great
and Tuscany , and now was anything said against the state exercise in a wretched yard) and all night they were kept in credit to his good feelings and his energy in explaining those
of the prisons of Piedmont and Tuscany? The whole case that cell, not knowing for what they were there, and with dark recesses of which he gave us an account. But I must
against the Italian Government was that they had failed to them was a man convicted of murder, and who was to be say that the statements which he made, so far from incul-
bring the Neapolitan prisons into the same state as those of executed the week after. In the next roam he found 230 of pating the present Government of Italy, showed that, in
Piedmont and Tuscany. Let him ask, what object could the these wretched men, and the state of filth and squalor in spite of all their exertions, the abuses of the former Govern-
Italian Government have in keeping the Neapolitan prisons which he found them would require an abler and more elo- meat still remain unextinguished—(oh, and cheers)—be-
in the state represented by the hon. member? As for the quent tongue than his to adequately describe, They were cause he tells us of nothing which we do not know to have
treatment of the prisoners, they were actually treated with men of different classes, who had been condemned to that actually existed under the reigns of the Neapolitan Sove-
more liberality than prisoners in England. No doubt the living death because they had listened to the voice of Gari- reigns ; and therefore the only result of that statement
southern part of Italy was in an unsatisfactory state, baldi. Many of them had been imprisoned so long that which he made is that the present Government has not
but he would reiterate what he said last year, that, with their clothes had worn out, and they had not money with scceeded in entirely getting rid of all the abuses which
very few exceptions, the National Guard were true to which to purchase ethers. One was in a state of absolute existed. (Derisive cheers) We had another able speech
the Government. As for the charges brought against Sir nudity. He had no shirtor trousers, and only a ragged coat, although it brought down upon the person who made it the
James Hudson and Mr. Consul Bonham—that they had which he threw over his shoulders; and his condition was attacks of some on the other side of the house We had an
suppressed information and deceived her hdajeaty's Govern_ so bad that he could net rise to make his obeisance and ask able speech from nay hon. friend the Under Secretary of
went -he would merely leave it to the house to say whe- for mercy from the strangers, (Hear, hear.) The stench was State, and I think those who heard that speech and saw
ther it was fair and generous to level such accusations fearful then (which was in the month of January), and the way in which he refuted point by point all the state-
against men who were unable to defend themselves. To de- what, he asked, must it be now that the hot weather had set meats which went before him—(oh, oh)—will agree with
dare that such men had wilfully deceived the Government in ? (Hear.) The food supplied to them would not have me that it will go far to established that truthful result which
was a calumny which ought to be resented. It was true that been given to cattle in this country, and the bread was so I contend is the effect of debates which take place in Parlia
they heard occasionally of acts of atrocity being perpetrated hard that he was unable to make an impression on it with meat. (Hear.) Then we heard a most admirable speech
in Southern Italy, but such acts were inseparable from the his foot In the next room were 303 persons confined—one from a member newly come within these walls—a speech
state of brigandage which existed there. And it was not the was dumb, and another a hunchback—but all protesting delivered with great eloquence, with great powerof language,
Italian Government, but those who sent the brigands utt against the so-called clemency of the Government. In the and with an earnestness which proved the deep conviction
that were responsible for the brigandage. (Hear, hear.) He prison which had been visited by the Chancellor of the Ex- of the speaker by whom it was delivered. We must give
altogether rejected the charge that the English Govern- chequer, and which he had described as a charnahhouse, he him great credit also for the energy with which he has di-
ment had encouraged these brigands to cross over from found 1,200 confined there in a space allotted for not more rected his mind to the subject, I trust that that which is
Malta to the Italian shore. The hon, member said this was than 600. There were but one gaoler and 14 warders an admirable beginning will be followed by still better re-
a civil war, and not brigandage; but was there ever a civil to control these wretched beings, and the gaolers, both sults, and that he will frequently give the house the benefit
war in which no man of property, no officer wearing a tini- in that and all the other persons, implored him to use his of his remarks. (Cheers.) But the real fact of the case is
form, no prince of the blood was engaged ?It would be un•• influence to obtain an alteration of the present system of this—that we do not deny, and we cannot deny that on the
worthy of England to insult a great and independent Go- overcrowding; and he gave an emphatic denial to the state- Neapolitan territory there does exist a great number of
vernment like that of Italy, by year after year publishing ment made by Mr. Bonham that the atrocities committed abuses which are, in short, relics of that system which was
these reports on the state of Italy. (Hear.) He admitted the upon those wretched individuals were due to the cruelties of overthrown when Garibaldi passing from Sicily came to
condition of Italy was not satisfactory, but at the same time Bourbon gaolers. (Hear, hear.) In that building he found Naples, and presented, as he did, the kingdom of Naples to
he maintained that no country had achieved its indepen- 850 confined in five rooms, running one into another, with Victor Emmanuel. Everybody must agree that in every
deuce in so short a time of which there was so little to cone_ only open iron rails between them, As soon as he appeared other part of Italy there is nothing of which complaint
plain. (Cheers.) Great things had never been accomplished amongst them he was beset with petitions and entreaties; can be made. (Oh, oh.) Lombardy is flourishing;
without great trials,andltalymust be prepared to go through and as soon as they heard he was an Englishman they Tuscany is in good condition. No one says any evil of
her day of trial. With respect to the statement of the hon. formed the vain hope that he had come to relieve them from Modena. Parma we never hear of; the Romagna, added
member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy), the hon, mem- the greatest cruelty and oppression, In fact, what he saw from the States of the Church, is confessedly in a most
ber had very ingeniously confined his observations to the there he could only compare to "the hell tortured victims" flourishing and happy condition. It is only in the kingdom
years 1861 and 1862; but had he really desired to test the in Dante's " Inferno." The noble lord then described his of Naples and Sicily that these complaints exist. (Cheers.)
condition of Italian trade, he ought to have compared its visit to between 40 and 50 conspirators, He did not sym- Let any one recollect how difficult it is for a Government to
present
state with what it was in the year 55, '°B, '57, '5B, pathise with conspirators, and their crime was that they had mould and weld together six additions to an existing State
when Naples was under the old regime. But at the same time deserted Victor Emmanuel, and had listened to the voice of —and such is the task which the Italian Government has
he could mention this extraordinary fact, that while during that great and honest man, Ga. italdi ; and if any man had to perform. To Piedmont have been added Lombardy,
the last 12 months our exporthin consequence of the civil war might in such a case temper justice with mercy that man Tuscany, Modena, Parma, the Romagna, and Naples. All
in America, had fallen off to all other parts of the world the was Victor Emmanuel. ( Hear, hear.) Iu a most miserable these had different organisations, different laws, different
exports to Italy had increased. Last year he had explained and narrow cell, with four iron bedsteads, without a table or tariffs, different systems, and all these had to be welded into
that although, according to the new Italian tariff, the tariff books to cheer them, he found four men chained two and one harmonious whole. I think any one who knows any-
of Naples had been reduced 80 per cent., yet the customs' two with the heaviest of irons. It was at first difficult to thing of the difficulties of government can hardly expect
receipts had only fallen off to the extent of 17.000,000 francs, recognise in that situation so distinguished a man as Count that in two years the task will be completely and satisfac-
showing that the trade of the country had increased fivefold. Christian, but he made a sign and said " I appreciate your torily accomplished. In those parts with regard to which no
That was a most remarkable fact. The hon. member seemed feeling. You feel pity for me. Don't do that, but feel pity external influences are at work it has been accomplished in
to think that because the trade of Italy with England had for those who desecrate the name of freedom by treatment a wonderful degree (cheers)—because in five of those States
not increased, that therefore its trade with the rest of the such as this lam now suffering." (Hear, hear.) Signor which I have enumerated things go on well, and no cora-
world had fallen off. Now, the fact was, that the trade of Carraciolo, with another political offender was there, and plaints whatever exist. (Cheers.) Naples is the exception,
Italy with the test of the world had increased enormously, he was chained to a man who had been a brigand, and who and why ? Because, next to Naples we have Rome. Be-
(Cheers.) was convicted of robbery and manslaughter. In that con- cause in Rome there is a French garrison. Because that
Lord H. LENNOX, as an independent member, desired dition he found those gentlemen, whose misfortune it had French garrison protects the ex Court of Naples. (Loud
to speak as to facts connected with the present condition of been to differ in opinion with the Government, and whose cheers.) And, because, under the shelter of that foreign
Italy, which had come under his own eyes. But first let crime had been to conspire against them— chained with army there exists a committee of, I believe, no less than 200
him observe, that no one who knew him doubted but that the heaviest of irons to the commonest of malefactors. people, whose constant employment it is to organise bands
his warmest sympathies were with the cause of the Italian (Hear,
hear.) Against such a system as that he entered of murderers—(oh I and loud cheers)—of the scum and
people; and that even in the days of Magenta and S lfe- his protest. He cared not whether such deeds of dark- dregs of every nation, and to send them forth into the Nea-
fel inn, when many of toe friends of Italy dissociated them- ness were done under a Bourbon, or under the pseudo politan territory to commit every sort of atrocity. (Cheers )
selves from the cause, through a dread and jealousy of liberality of Victor Emmanuel, but in the name of England And then we are told that is civil war! Good God I what
Frenchinterference, he had never shared that dread or that 'he denounced the commission of such barbarous atrocities. an idea gentlemen must have of civil war when they dignify
jealousy
But when such facts as he had seen in Italy came The captives all desired to be tried. To the end of every acts of the most atrocious ruffianism—(loud cheers)—by a
under his notice, it was impossible to remain blindfolded vista, however long, they had a spark of hope, and did they name which may imply the loftiest sentiments and the
with respect to the real condition of the country. He de- bit know their fate that spark of light would grow longer highest possible social and political aspirations. (Cheers.)
sired to raise four questions. In the first place, he would and larger as the period for their liberty arrived. Their I say they do commit acts of the greatest ruffianism (cheers)
ask whether it was true that at the present moment there present suffering was intolerable, and many of them believed —because they burn houses and murder people, and they
prevailed in the Neapolitan Kingdom a system of personal that the certainty of imprisonment for life (which would destroy and lay waste. They burn people as well as houses.
domestic espionage ; secondly, whether there existed, not destroy the hope of a release) would be preferable to their They burn their captives. (Hear, hear.) We have know-
merely at Naples, but at Genoa, Florence, Milan, and Bo- present state of intolerable suspense. He hoped the ledge of this, and therefore I say they do commit atrocities
logna, a perfectly free press, and at that point he was at Chancellor of the Exchequer would exercise his influence which ought to make those who send them forth
direct issue with the Under' Secretary of State, for he had with the Government and put a stop to such a state of things to commit them blush to the deepest dye. (Cheers.) Then,
visited every one of those towns; thirdly, he invited the as he had described, and prevent its leading to the gravest there are gentlemen in this house who are proud of their ligious faith, who cling, as they may naturally and re-
housepro-
to examine whether under the benign rule of Victor European complications. (Cheers).
Emmanuel there existed that complete personal liberty of Mr. BUTLER-JOHNSTONE, in a very promising first Indy do, to that faith, who call themselves pre-eminently
which the Under-Secretary spoke; and fourthly, he would speech, admitted some of the grievances complained of by Catholic, while they set their face against the liberties of
answer the challenge of the gentleman' bY directing at- Lord H Lennox in the state of the Neapolitan prisons and Italy, and seek to rivet her fetters, forgetting that the Ita-tentitontottohtehessstatetemofoftheeslptiaonliaange,prisons° Now, with re- the detention of persons without trial, but suggested various lians are 20,000,000 of Catholics, as good as themselves, and
he begged to say, upon considerations which should mitigate the responsibility of who ought to be better, inasmuch as they are nearer the
BhPi es
c personal yresponsibility, that the very same system, the Italian Government. He pointed out the mass of evils source. (A laugh.) I confess lamat a loss to understand
worked by the very same agents, as prevailed under the with which that Government had to contend placing it in why this should be the case—(hear, hear)—but be that as
Bourbon regime was still maintained, and that it was not a position, he said, in which no other Government ever it may, I still contend that if those disorders which have
persons of low caste that were subjected to its influence, found itself. The existing state of things in Italy was been mentioned continue to prevail their continuance is due
but men of birth and education—men too who had suffered exceptional, and would pass away, Time was required to to those who from Rome keep up this agitation. (Hear.)
under the rule of Ferdinand and Francis 11. He had a list admit of radical improvements in a society infested by in- After all, it may, be, perhaps, that this state of things is
of those persons by him, and either the hon. gentleman or veterate vices, which the present Government had set itself not otherwise than in the usual course of affairs. Great
the noble lord at the head of the Government were perfectly sincerely to work to eradicate. changes of dynasty cannot well be effected without a long
welcome to look over that list, although he dare not make Mr. GOWER defended the Italian Government in regard series of disorders. No change of dynasty has ever taken
them public in that house. In support of his assertion that to the state of the Neapolitan prisons. He thought that place in any country with the immediate and entire acqui.
perfect liberty of person did not exist in Naples, the Lord H. Lennox had been intentionahy misled upon the escence of the people of that country. Indeed, I would say
noble lord stated that since his visit to Naples two months subject by reactionary agents. With reference to the con- that the worse a Government is, the more corrupt it is, the
since, and not more than a week or two since, 200 halm • dition ot Italy, he enumerated a variety of material and mere likely it is to leave behind it when overthrown per-
duals, men, women, and children, had been swept off into moral improvements introduced since the change of rulers. sons who lived by that corruption and who regret to find
prison, only on suspicion of sympathy with the Bourbons, Sir G. BOWYER argued at some length that the South that their means of livelihood had departed. Such is the
(Cheers.) With regard to the absence of freedom of the of Italy was really in a state of insurrection, the so• called case in the Neapolitan territory, and it is not to be supposed
press, he would observe that every morning in the Neapo- brigands being supported by the whole body of the popu- that by a stroke of the wand, or by the apparition of half a
litan States each paper 'a as submitted, before it was pub- lation ; and he dwelt upon the severities exercised by the dozen followers of Garibaldi in red shirts in a railway car-
lished, to an official called the Questeh,who
was
empowered Piedmontese Government towards Southern Italy, which riage, all traces of the former monarchy are at once to be
to confiscate ant' seize such as he disapproved of, and even was trodden down, he said, by a merciless despotism. He swept away, and 'hat there should not remain behind some
to suppress
_them altogether. Such confiscations
and
sup• held her Majesty's Ministers responsible for the state
of persons who, from motives of interest or from attachment to
P_r esamns were not confined to Naples, for they also to k things in Ita y.
the old dynasty, should desire to see it restored. It is a great
place in other parts
Wit a month a newspaper Air, AGAR-ELLIS, speaking from personal examine- mistake to imagine that it is the majority of the Neapolitan
of Florence, called the eh coca Europa, of Italy.
hin
had been seized four tien, gave a far less unfavourable description of the Neapo- population, and not the smallest
possible minority, by whom
times in nine days, and finally the editor had bh'n heavily litan prisons than Lord H. Lennox.
such sentiments are entertained, Great difficulty has, no
fined, and imprisoned for three months. Another paper, After some remarks by Sir P. O'Barnet, doubt, been experienced in introducing into Naples that
celebrated for its thor ughly liberal sentiments, had come Mr. COCHRANE said the Government had either been pure system of government and jurisprudence which one
to the same untimely end. In Milan the Peesenenanza had kgt in ignorance by their own agents of what was passing would wish to see established there, and which it has
been confiscated for republishing a despatch from Earl Rua- in Italy, or they had been culpably silent. He produced a been the earnest desire of the Government of Turin to
stll to the Turin Government. In the Romagna a newspaper
omnitneEael listoflBB persons shot in cold blood by the Pied- carry into operation. It must, however, be borne in
-which had been in existence only two years had been sup- Governmental in the first three months of the pre- mind that you cannot govern without inttruments, and
imprisoned sentm year, and also
tshooauphroclamation which he denounced as that, as my hon. friend the Under-Secretary of State re-
for two times, one of its editors being fined and
t her Majesty's Government had marked, those instruments are wanting in a country which
for years for reptintieg articles from Piedmontese - infamous.
papers. Many journals were suppressed in one province failed in the cause o' ghumanity.
has been corrupted to the core by a long system of arbitrary
and allowed to circulate in another, showing how complete Mr. 'oh HALLEY protested against the whole discuesion. and tyrannical rule. The hon. baronet who spoke last
the unity of Italy was. (Laughter.) In three e ears 27 Due notice should- he thought, be given of such a debate. seemed to ridicule the idea that a jury could not be procured
journals had died altogether, having been suppressed by the Mr. MAGI-hIRE animadverted upon what he termed the in Naples ; but the fact is that, owing to the eystem of
police and never having, been allowed to reappear. Ihe noble inflarnma or y address of Mr. La and uttered in reply to the terrorism which has for a long time ben established, e
lord quoted the ease ef one edttor, whose office had been at- most temperate speech of Mr. Bentinck. What, he asked, sons are afraid to come forward and discharge the duties
tacked by mobs and destroyed, who had himself been had been the result of the violation of international law and of jurymen and that is the reason why the prisoners are not
threatened with assassination if he attempted to republish the machinations of Victor Emmanuel and the policy of brought t ,trial with the despatch which is desirable. It is a
his journal, and who, in claiming the protection of the Go- her Majesty's Government F A unity that was a mockery great pity that such should be the case, because the detention
vernmen . t for this purpose, hid been thrown into rison and a sham. In In the state of things described her Majesty'; of so large a number of persons in gaol for so long a time Un-
on the charge that his protest against the outrage wal's dis. Government was asked to interfere and remonstrate in a tried and without being proved guilty of the crimes laid to
loyal. The Government had thus set the stamp of their friendly manner with that of Piedmont, in order to put an
uthoevierltcyh.argletiissnsiomdpoiltyhtthaegeroeuattioevuialt.iontthofisa, however,state
of thiisungoa
approval on this threat of assassination. With regard to end to the atrocities perpetrated in Italy.
liberty of action in the Neapolitan States, the nob :e lord L d PALMERSTON I wish before I address myself which previously existed. There was, I may add, another
proceeded to state that he had arrived at Naples, a strong to theor subject of the debat—e, to set right a misrepresentation evil which existed before, but which no longer prevails.
partisan of Victor Emmanuel's Government, but what he which - of Mr Under the old regime persons who had been tried and ac-
has been made with regard to the conduct
werenot
allowed still held
to ender dme ra s a-
hal seen in going ever the prisons in Naples had induced Odo Russell in a particular transaction. An bon. member— quitted, and sent back into sociewt
surveillanceAs
him to modify his opinion He had visited those prisons lam ashamed to vy Ido not recollect who—quoted from a species of superintendence, and eyr'e
manymes of the police, and
whh a member of the Turin Parliament, who, for having Brussels
paper, .7_,e'Nerd, an account of a supposed convey-
thus
1 ,r,ied him, had since been suePected of entertaining salon between Mr. Odo Russell and she French Generalown it under i ° ha;as 70,000 persons ware
accouiepnary sentiments, had le, en the object of newspaper commanding in Rome. tern of tihacei.r,l
nut allowed to leave their ho " I did not.") were engagea in any pro •
rf.° c 1 and finally had been summoned before a judge to Whoever it was, I would recoG. Bowyer—
or do anything, in short, which
,LIIC Cs, .
conspired against his country. The second that paper again. (Hear,
he mmend him never to consult fession,. free man would
answer for having
was whether Lord Lennox was Sir G. BOWYER • all
wish to do, because they feared they might be re-committed
part to put him
I eltel not sp:ak from information de. to prison, notwithstanding their previous acquittal. (Hear.)
interrogatory
who a eared to be the rived fro
of Lord Nerman by, PP
not a parents Having stated 133 any newspaper. I spoke from more trustworthy If now the prisons in Naples are not in such a state as one
Government (Hear.) information. (Hear, hear.) bugbear of the Italian
and of discussion, as to Lord PALMERcouId wish to see them, this is so, I contend, in spite of the
had as to liberty of person a . .
ETON—The paper, .Le Nord was men- exertions of the Italian Government to place them in a
what he
system of espionage, he toned, and the conversation was liberty of the press, and as to the
quoted from that paper. better conditien. I may further observe that the detailed
know whether ho was (Hear.) That assumed conversation confidently appealed to the house to
Secretary
of State for upon the good breeding of the Frenchwas a great reflection statement of the noble lord opposite (Lord H. Lennox) has
not right in charging the Under S
of England is unusual for gentlemen ' • General, because it been, in many respects, contradicted in the course of the
in society to make use of rho discussion
Foreign Affairs with having misled the peoplehad raised the pression which is attributed to the French General ex• by those who have had opportunities of seeing
last year behstating that the change in Italy
of the knowing him to be a gentleman of refined and, the prison into which he obtained admission. The very
people froni the "verge of slavery to the enjoyment
at all believe that he used it. The facts of the casemanners,w do not fact, indeed, that the Neopolitan prisons are thrown open
fullest liberty." (Laughter.) With regard to personal_
Mr. Odo Russell received information fromto anybody, be he Englishman or any other stranger,
visit made by persona whom and that there •
liberty, the noble lord stated the result of a .
could he believed to be trustworthy, but whosenames he was not at clearl ls no concealment as to their condition,
him to the prisons of Naples, where, he said, nothing
regarded
liberty to mention, that certain brigandshad passed outof the all eventsthat the Italian Government does not at
he described as badly conducted so far as
poll- hhapal territory in French uniforms, not furnished by the indication object to be told of its faults, thus affording an
-tried and convicted felons; but, as regarded
Government, but by thosepersons who supplied the that it is disposed to remedy them, The loon. em, •
tical Prisoners the case was different. He had seen Mr. French
e, may add, has to-night repeated
Bishop, and in another call found a prisoner who had means of the expedition, The French Government denied the his prophecy that an united Italy ot last, that it will all

a leader, still hanging on the accents of English Ministers,
perpetually adopting a line which nothing could justify ex-
cept commanding genius and commanding legions, holding
out to the people the immediate expectation of Mine being
made their capital by the overpowering interference of their
English ally, and representing results which will not occur,
if ever, for half a century as the consequences of the pass-
ing hour. And what has become of the state of Italy ?
A state of dismemberment, of confusion, vexation, embar-
rassment, disgrace, and humiliation. (Cheers.) The hon•
member for Peterborough has doubted whethet the condi-
tion of Italy is a legitimate subject for our debate. He
shrinks from irritating the Vatican, and would rather con-
centrate all his efforts against Maynooth. (Laughter.) I
want to know on what ground we are to discuss the stateof
Poland, if we are not permitted to discuss the state
of Calabria and the Two Sicilies. (Hear.) True, in one
country the insurgents aro called brigands, and in the other
patriots, but, with that exception, I have not learned from
this discussion that there is any marked discrimination
between them. (Oh, oh ! and cheers.) But, says the noble
lord, it is really only in Naples that these disturbances
occur, and Naples after all is merely a province. Naples
merely a province ! What becomes, then, of your united
Italy ? (Cheers.) Is it only in Naples that this dissatis-
faotion appears ? It is expressed in every other of the six
States absorbed. There is universal discontentment and
complaint. But what have we heard to-night P A de-
scription of the state of things has been given, which has
not been contradicted, and of which every gentleman with
information on these subjects was previously aware, though
he had not heard it related in detail with the picturesque
animation which accompanied the statement of the noble
lord the member for Chichester. When you talk of the
liberty of the press, is it a fact or not that it is not enjoyed
in any part of Italy? Is it true that, whether in Milan, or
whether in Genoa, or even in:Turin, and certainly not in
Florence, the liberty of the press does not exist ? (Hear,
hear.) Is it a fact or not that the liberty of the person is
much in the same state as the liberty of the press ? (Hear,
hear.) The reason given by the Under-Secretary for Foreign
Affairs why persons are kept in prison without trial is cer-
tainly one of the most remarkable I ever heard. While the
country is improving its jurisprudence one of the regulations
is that the prisoners, until the improvements might be car-
ried into effect, should be locked up. (Laughter.) The rea-
son given by the Under.. Secretary, as far as I can collect it,
for not bringing persons to trial is that the jurymen are not
considered capable of performing the duties of their high
office. But what if a more natural reason be the true one,
and that jurymen are not found capable of carrying into ef-
fect the intentions of the Government ? (Cheers.) I put it
to any philosopher who decides on human conduct upon
abstract principles, and not with a knowledge of the circum-
stances, which he would think the most natural solution of
the monstrous state of affairs described by the Under-Sec-
retary—mine, or that which has the official warrant; and I
ask him to decide which is the most probable, the most
natural, and, certainly, which is the most true reason.
(Hear, hear.) This is the condition of Italy at the present
moment; it was the condition of Italy last year, and it is one
highly unsatisfactory, I believe, to the Italians as well as to
England. (Hear, hear.) They have been kept in a state
of constant excitement and irritation from expectations held
out by our Government through a course of policy being in-
dicated by England, which England was never prepared to
act upon, and which England was not justified in holding
out without being prepared to act on it. (Hear, hear.)
Only last year the noble lord informed the country and
Europe that immediately they might expect some great
change in Italy, and that a solution of all the difficulties of
Italian p.litics was about to be accomplished. But, mind
you, we have had a very different tone to-night. We have
not heard from the noble lord any expressions on that sub-
ject. Much as he is obliged to keep up some appearance of
unity in the policy of the Government, yet there have been
no expectations held out to-night of Rome being immedi •
ately, or even eventual y, the capital of Italy. There have
been no menaces to France, no promises to Italy—menaces
and promises generally equally fallacious ; but, on the con-
trary, the noble lord has spoken with much moderation on
the subject, and the noble lord appears to have adopted the
tone of the sensible observations made by my hon. friend
the member for Canterbury in his admirable speech, great in
performance, and greater still in promise, from which it may
be hoped that the hon. member will contribute much to the
interest of our future debates. (Hear.) My hon. friend, fresh
from Italy, and well informed, has taken, as we all have a
right to do, his own interpretation and view of public affairs.
He stated that there is now a chance for Italy, that there
have been some progress and some improvements, and that,
though the difficulties have been immense, there is mere
common sense among the Italians than the world gives
them credit for, and that they have dismissed from their
mind the wild notion of taking possession of Rome
as their capital. That was what was stated by my
hon. friend as his impression of what is the state of public
opinion in Italy : and the consequence is that, as the views
of the Italian Governuent are now more practical, the pro-
spects of the country are brighter, and there is hope that
the people will be content now in consolidating their
strength and developing their resources, and not indulge in
those wild dreams of impracticable politics which, for some
reason or other, were encouraged by the Minister of Eng-
land. (Hear.) That was the gist of the speech of my hon.
friend, and I entirely agree with him as to the present con-
dition of Italy. I believe with him that the state of Italy
is an exceptional state. You cannot expect in a nation
where a great revolution and great changes have taken place
that logical order and propriety in the Administration of the
laws and the practice of the constitution which you meet
with in such a country as England. That is the result of
time and experience—experience showing the blessings of
order and a settled constitution, and time moderating the
human passions and toning down the dispositions of men
to a practical enjoyment of life. I agree with my hon. friend
in the opinion he brings from Italy that the Italian Go
vernment has given up those extreme views he adverted to,
and that there is now a more practical consideration of
affairs, which will, I hope, lead to the increased prosperity
of Italy in bringing about that state of things which was
contemplated by the greatest of her statesmen, and which
in time may be developed in greater proportion. But if
this is to be brought about it can only be brought about by
Italy pursuing that policy with temper and perseverance.
Italy must learn to depend on herself. She must not depend
either on the expectations held out by English Ministers,
which cannot be realised, or on the hopes held out by French
Governments, which may lead her into a position most em-
barrassing. The Ministers of Italy occupy at this moment
particularly a difficult position, They must extricate them-
selves from a false condition of affairs, made up of exagge-
rations conceived in the epoch of a revolution, and which
rival Governments have played with in incessant manceuvree
But they cannot do this unless they let Europe know that
they are pursuing a poliey of peace and conciliation, not of
war, invasion, and aggression. (Hear, hear.) There is no
country in the world for which peace is more necessary, and
of which peace should be so decidedly the policy, as Italy at
the present moment. Last year, when we had same inci-
dental discussion upon the subject of Italy, with reference
to our own public expenditure, I ventured to say that the
policy pursued by our Government with regard to Italy and
the centre of Europe was one of the causes of that expendi-
ture, I said then that the policy which we pursued with re-
gard to Rome was of an irritating character, which must
end in disappointment and failure, and which was not war-
ranted by sound principles—(hear)—and that if there were
a fair and rational understanding between England and
France in regard to Italy, that understanding might, and
could, and ought to have a considerable effect on the expen-
diture of the country. Well, 12 months have elapsed, and
the state of affairs which I indicated as desirable has really
oceurred, There has been a change in the public opinion
of Italy as to the policy which it ought to pursue. Rome is
no longer held forth as the necessary and inevitable capital
of Italy, without the possession of which there could be no
development of resources, no expansion of freedom, and
without which industry could not receive the fruits of its
exertions. On the other hand, between England and France,
as far as we can judge, there is this understanding on the
subject of Italy—it is apparently argued that Italy shall no
longer be the scene of livel policies—that she shall be left
alone to the calm and tranquil development of her resources,
and the consolation of her political power. I think the
prospects of Italy in these respects far more favourable than
last year. (Hear, hear.) All who have spoken to-night
have described the state of Italy as more or less better
than it was said to be last year. I agree with the noble
lord that it may be productive of good that the details
which nave been given to-night should be known to Italy
and to Europe. I think that knowledge may tend to a
considerable amelioration bath of a public and a private
nature. But what is still m,re important is that England
should be thoroughly disabused as to the popular opinion
with respect to the condition of that country. (Hear hear.)
Italy is not at this moment a land flowing with milk and
honey. (Hear, hear.) Italy is a land much exhausted by
great struggles ; she has gone through the trial, I am bound
to say in a manner which, on the whole, must elevate her in
the consideration of nations, (Hear, hear.) If she has
not realized what I would call the visions of her friends,
she has far surpassed the expectations those who were not
friendly to her may have indulged in. (Hear, hear.) She
has shown energies which the world did not give her credit
for, and which, if well husbanded, and if they meet a fair
fortune, may tend to the ultimately triumph of her ambition,
provided it be one such as circnmstances justify and which
the nature of things will permit. (Hear hear.) This is
not an unfavourable prospect after all the fears which have
been engendered during the last two or three years, The
general condition of affairs is much ameliorated. But
that amelioration can only be secured by adopting the
causes which have led to it—namely, relinquishing that
policy of the English Government, which was a policy of
words, not of deeds, by promoting the natural consolidation
of her Government and the natural development of her re-
sources, and by obtaining that liberty in practice which at
present she possssses only in theory. (Loud cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—So many
appeals, Mr. Speaker, have been made to me in the course
of this debate that I can scarcely reconcile it to my mind,
if I may trust to the patient attention of the house, to sit
still without saying one word in answer to those appeals,
and without noticing the speech which has just been deli-
vered. My hon. friend the member for Taunton (Mr. C.
Bentinck) and try noble friend the member for Chichester
(Lord H. Lennox) have both delivered speeches of great
ability, and they appear to think it most inconsistent on my

fall to pieces, and that their ancient dynasties will be esta-
blished once more in all the separate States of the Italian
peninsula. But I hope he may turn out to be a false pro-
phet, because the unity of Italy is likely, in my opinicn, to
be the foundation of her prosperity. That unity has up to
the present moment been attended with the most beneficial
results. It will, I trust, continue, and if arrangements
could be made so to extend it as to trance the whole of the
Italian provinces, I feel quite satisfied that no country in
Europe, no population in the world, could attain to a higher
pitch of happiness and prosperity than an United Italy, so
constituted, would achieve. For her Majesty's Government,
I will only say that we do not at all regret the part we hove
taken in this question. We have been accused of intermed-
dling, but we have done so only in the shape of moral in-
fluence and the expression of opinion. I am glad to think that
the course we have taken has called forth the gratitude of
the people of Italy, and that it has done so I know to be
the tact. The people from one end of the country to the
other are deeply grateful to the English nation for
the kind and warm interest it has taken in those
transactions which have tended so much to their happiness,
and no doubt any influence which we may be able indivi-
dually to bring to bear with a view to putting an end to those
evils which still survive their unity it will be the duty of the
Government to exert. It is not a fitting or becoming thing
for one Government to interfere in the internal administra-
, ion of another State ; but thereare, at the same time, cases
in which friendly advice might be given, and I feel assured
the discussion this evening will be attended with good results
in connexion with those points which have been the subject
of comment. The ben. gentleman who spoke last but one
alluded to the case of Mr. Bishop as one in which, in his
opinion, a great amount of tyranny was exercised. Now,
Mr. Bishop was on his trial, convicted of having been a car-
rier of treasonable correspondence between Rome and
Naples—au offence of deep dye, He was sentenced in
accordance with the law, but the sentence in its
execution, though not altogether revoked, was greatly
modified at the intercession of her Majesty's Government.
So far from the case of Mr. Bishop then being an example
of over-severity on the part of the Italian Government, it
ought, I think, rather to be looked upon as an instance in
which the Government has yielded to the friendly recom-
mendations of her Majesty's Ministers, and remitted a large
portion of the penalty inflicted by a court of justice on
an individual who had beyond doubt greatly offended
against the laws of the country in which he chose to
reside. I have simply to add, hi conclusion, that I feel
assured the Italian Government will pursue that course
which, notwithstanding the allegations made to the con-
trary, I maintain it is pursuing—namely, the establishment
of order with every indulgence consistent with the attain-
ment of its object. I trust that it will exercise no undue
severity, but that with the means placed at its disposal it
will enforce that authority which I contend has its founda-
tion in the free will of the Italian people; which is in ac-
cordance with the national desire, and which being so will,
I am confident, be more lasting than the hon. member for
Dungarvan seems to imagine, (Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—I entirely concur with the noble lord
in not regretting that this discussion has taken place. We
are, I think, indebted to the hon. gentleman who brought
forward the subject for the most interesting and animated
debate of the Session. I may add that it is with some pride
I advert to the circumstance that it was from these benches
three speeches were delivered to-night, to which everybody
who beard them must have listened with the utmost plea-
sure and satisfaction, (Hear, hear.) This question of Italy
is one which requires in ccnsidering it that we should look
a little back. It is about five or six years ago, or more, that
the condition of Italy, owing to its critical state, began to
attract the deep attention of the House of Commons.
Various opinions were then expressed by hon members on
both sides of the house as to the position of that country,
her future fate, and her possible fortunes. There were then
two great opinions which swayed very much the conduct of
public men. The first was the great doubt that prevailed
whether the unity of Italy was possiole—whether you could
mould together seven or eight different nationalities, coun-
tries with different laws, with almost different languages,
and under the influence of different policies. Secondly,
there was a consciousness that in any contest in Italy it was
a question as to the supremacy either of Austria or France.
However the people of England might disapprove what was
described by a classical writer as the iron rule of Austria, still
we naturally felt jealous of changes and revolutions in Italy
which might tend to the aggrandisement of our powerful
neighbour and lead to the preponderance of her influence in
an alarming degree. With these considerations before us it
was not surprising that Parliament and public men should
have spoken with much diffidence and some distrust of the
commencement of those great changes which we have lived to
see and the consequences of which, to a certain degree, we
have realised. What seems to us now very easy and plain
to comprehend were really some half a dozen years ago poli-
tical mysteries which the most sagacious could not pene-
trate and which the boldest could not contemp late without
mistrust. (Hear.) What was feared actually took place.
Italy was relieved from the power of Austria, but in exact
proportion as the power of Austria was diminished the in-
fluence of France was substituted and maintained. (Hear.)
Fortunately for Italy there arose to guide her destinies a
statesman of eminent ability. It has been said that Cavour
was a man not very scrupulous as to his means. This is a
question which I leave with the historian to decide. He
may have been unscrupulous in his means, but this all
must admit that he was clear in his vision and practical
in his policy. (Hear, hear.) He knew what, he wanted,
and what he wanted he accomplished. He knew it was
possible in the circumstances with which he had to deal,
and with the means at his command, to establish a king-
dom of Italy of considerable power and resources; and,
like a wise statesman and true patriot he looked perhaps to
a future which would increase the power and multiply the
resources of that kingdom. But as far as her Majesty's
Government are concerned, they were originally as dis-
trustful as others of the future of Italy, and their policy
was vacillating and timid. I hardly blame them, because
they had to act under dark and difficult circumstances, but
I say that their policy at the beginning and for some time
was not that policy which has been boldly described to
night. (Hear.) On the whole I believe her Majesty's Go-
vernment, instead of assisting the patriotic views of Italian
statesmen, instead of consolidating the strength and de-
veloping the resources of a practical and powerful king-
dom of Italy, have, either for the sake of objects
upon which I do not care to dwell, or from a weak-
ness of political vision, adopted a policy which has tended
to weaken Italy and to distract Europe. (Cheers and mur-
murs.) This is not a question which can be settled by in-
articulate means. (A laugh.) I say the policy of the Eng-
lish Government has laid the foundation of future embar-
rassment for the world (Hear, hear.) What were the
difficulties with which Italy had to contend when, unfor-
tunately for her interests, Cavour suddenly quitted the at age
and she was left without a master mind to guide her for-
tunes and to mould her destinies ? There were two great
influences acting on Italy, which were opposed to that ideal
unity which had been the dream of her greatest statesmen
for genera;ions, and which, having adopted it from the
popular opinion of the day, they suddenly became the
pitrons. Those two great influences were the traditional
policy of France, which, under every form of government
—kingdom, republic. or empire—for reasons which France
deemed wise, was hostile to the Court of Rome, which was
hostile to a scheme which might not only deprive it of its
political estates—a very secondary consideration—but pro-
duce a revolution in ite position which might bring about
consequences throughout the world most adverse to Catholic
interests. Hence her Majesty's Government, by announc-
ing themselves as the patrons of Italian unity, placed them-
selves in collision with France and Rome. (Hear.) An hon.
gentleman cries " H ear, hear," and if he is prepared to sup-
port a Ministry which dared to struggle with the French
Empire and the Roman Court for the unity of Italy, I might
doubt the prudence of such a policy, but at least it woul
be intelligible to me. If England had chosen, with
the sanction of her Parliament and the unanimous
approbation of the nation, to throw all her influence
into the scale, and to say, what no one doubts, that.
Italian unity wouid add to the strength and splendour of
Europe and tend to the great advantage of this country,
and to devote all her arms and energies to the accomplish-
ment of that object, she would have pursued a policy which
one can understand. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has
taken great credit for his patronage of the independence,
freedom, and, above all, unity of Italy. Brave words we
have heard in this house from the noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
There have been speeches and there have been despatches.
Ail that could tend to irritate, and alarm the mighty influ-
ences that were opposed to Italian unity was, as far words
went, called into operation. lam not aware, however, that
the noble lord has done more than speak, and write, and
indicate a policy—(hear, hear), but he has not ventured to
grapple with the great influences arrayed against the policy
he patroniz -el. The consequence is the state of things
which we now witness—a state of affairs which Cavour
would have looked upon, had he lived, with sadness and
dismay, which he would have striven to avert, and the fore-
sight of which would probably have led him to say to Eng-
land, "Be our active and practical ally, or cease to insult
those with whose overpowering resources we must ultimately
contend." (Hear.) Since the death of Cavour the programme,
to use a fashionable word, of the national party in Italy has
been "Movement, development, uni y, Rome,"—immense
words—verbs sesquipedalia—used by men of very little
minds and very slight resources. What have they leant
upon ? They have leant upon the support of England. In
the English Parliament sonic gentleman, if not with the
absolute co-operation of, at least with social encouragement
from the noble lord, constantly brought forward the sub-
ject of the state of Italy. It was let out like a bag-fox, and
dfoi lrleocwt
eedd
against
at n
sat fullth e Pope, halloo.
p e2and
a promise,
Every ye ar we had the noble
lord presented to us as the regenerator of Italy, the saviour
of the country, and the performance ended with invectives
the cheers of the honourable member for Brighton and amid
dhiids
friends (a laugh), that Rome should be the capital of a
united Italy before the end of the session. (Laughter
and cheers.) It was the favourite question of the Govern-
ment. Indeed, when the Reform Bill was withdrawn, the
capture of Rome was the great measure of the Session.
(Hear.) And now in what has all this ended ? Cavour
withdraws from the scene—no commanding mind in Italy,
France naturally jealous of our uncertain and irritating
policy, Rome alarmed, Rome and France leagued against the
unity of Italy; the noble lord conducting a policy of words,
speeches, and despatches ; the Italian Government, without

part not to join them in the course which they have pur-
sued, to which they think I am bound by the part which I
took come 12 years ago. I take it to be a very great compli••
merit that I should receive from the noble lord and the
hon. gentleman so distinguished an expression of opinion on
their parts as that they are now pursuing the course, though
with reference to different persons, yet on the same prin-
ciples, which at that comparatively remote period I thought
it my duty to pursue. But I am bound to say there is a very
material difference between us, and especially between the
noble lord and myself. (Hear) The noble lord has visited
Italy. He went there enthusiastically attached to Ita'ian
freedom—nay, n ore, he was a devoted adherent of the Go-
vernment of Victor Emmanuel—(hear, hoar, from Lord H.
Lennox)—but having, during his visit, observed things
which appeared to him painful and disgraceful, although he
was aided in every respect by the officers of the Govern-
ment, although he received from General La Maimora an
order which laid open to him the inmost recesses of the
prisons, although he states that every prison was under the
control ot a man of humanity and intelligence, and although
ne was enthusiastically attached to Italy and to the Italian
Government as its organ, yet it never occurred to my noble
friend that it might be just to give that Government the
opportunity of profiting by the researches he had made,
but my noble friend though:: it better to conceal the know-
ledge which he had acquired until he could import it into
his own country, and there could deliver it from ene of the
seats of the House of Commons amid the cheers of an ad-
miring audience. (Cheers,)
Lord H. LENNOX (who rose amidst loud cries of
"Order" from the Government benches) said—My expe-
riences of the first prison I went to, which resulted in the
protest to which I have alluded, were written and signed by
me on the express understanding that the paper should be
forwarded to the Government of Turin for their informa-
tion. (' beers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That
was the prison which I think received at least a qualified
approval from my noble friend. (Hear, hear.) But he
went to a variety of prisons and amassed a multitude of
facts, and his enthusiastic attachment to Italian liberty and
to the Government, its organ, did not prevent him coming
to the House of Commons and making it and this country
the first confidential recipient of what he had seen.
(Cheers.) And my noble friend thinks he is walking in my
steps. Nothing could be more different. I did not go to
Italy as the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Government.
I never professed such a thing. (Hear, hear.) But although
I was not the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Govern-
ment, what I saw and heard I did not give to the public
at home until everything was brought to the notice of the
Neapolitan Government. the course which I took was
this—l placed in the hands of Lord Aberdeen, that
admirable man who upon one subject had prejudices, pre-
judices in favour of the Italian Governments, every state-
ment I had to n ake, and I entreated him, to which he
cheerfully consented, to bring the whole of these statements
under the view of the Government of Naples before they
were made known either to the House of Commons or the
public. Well, Sir, it was the deliberate resolution of the
Neapolitan Government to take no steps for the removal of
the evils which I witnessed that drove me to the steps which
I afterwards took. (Cheers.) After what my noble friend
has said, it is impossible for a moment to question that he
is a most enthusiastic friend of Italian freedom and of the
Government which has been supposed to be the organ of the
people, having been freely chosen by its suffrages. (Hear.)
But I must say if- instead of having those lofty sentiments
in favour of Italian freedom, of which he has given us so
many assurances, my noble friend had been tainted with
ideas the most opposite, if it had been his object to do every-
thing in his power to discredit all those who are connected
with the cause of Italian nationality, I doubt whether he
could have taken a better considered course than the one he
has pursued, (Cheers.) Sir, I protest against the course
which the noble lord has pursued. It was his duty as an im-
partial Englishman to make these inquiries, but, had it but
been in common acknowledgment of the assistance he re •
ceived from the Italian Government in prosecuting these
investigations, it was also his duty frankly and fearlessly
to have laid before them the result of his inquiries, reserv-
ing his right, if necessary, to appeal to this tribunal. (No,
no, and hear, hear.) But that does not, I admit, absolve us
from our duty of paying due attention to the statements
which the noble lord ha- made. With respect to those state-
ments and others it will be enough if I refer to what has
fallen from my noble friend at the head of the Government.
The habits of bad government—(•' Hear, hear," from Sir G.
Bowyer.) Will the hon. gentleman be good enough to re-
strain his enthusiasm, which is always at fever heat on this
subject—(cheers and laughter)—•and leave me to pursue my
path undisturbed ? (Hear.) Sir, the habits of bad govern-
ment do not depend on the perverted will of a single
individual, although that individual may be a king—
nor upon the perverted will of a Cabinet or a Court. They
descend with 10,000 fibres through all the ramifications of
society, and when the Italian Government succeeded to the
possession of power in the Southern provinces of that coun-
try they did not succeed to a paradise which they have since
defiled, but to something like the very reverse of a paradise,
and which it will take a protracted time and gigantic la-
bour to cleanse. (Cheers.) What, for example, is to be done
with the hundreds, the thousands, the tens of thousands
who in that unhappy country formerly gained an infamous
livelihood as gaolers and spies ? Is it to be supposed that
a new Government can make a clean sweep of all the func-
tionaries whom they find in office ? Only gradual reforms
can be carried out in the ranks of the official corps in such
a country. That reform must begin at the head, and go
down to the smaller officials. Has that reform begun ? The
noble lord says that in every case at the head of the prisons
he found men of humanity and intelligence. (" Hear,
hear," from Lord H. Lennox.) Does he suppose that I was
permitted to enter every prison and obtain encouragement
and assistance from the head ? (Sir G, Bowyer—" Yes.")
Does he suppose that I was welcomed as a co-operator and
a friend ? No, on the contrary. The statement of my noble
friend the member fur Chichester proves that there is much
that is lamentable and much that is disgraceful to the im-
mediate agents in the system that prevails in the south of
Italy. But it also proves that even there reform and improve-
ment have begun, (Hear.) The principal functionaries
have been removed and replaced by better men. The light
of day has been let into the inmost recesses of the darkest
caverns. There is not an abuse or a horror that is not
brought freely forward. And the whole of the statements of
the hon. member for Taunton were trot the result of researches
made by him, but were a reference to discussions in the
open air and in open Parliament by the representatives of
the Italian people. (Cheers.) Therefore, I say that from
the very worst and darkest features of Southern Italy—and
some of them, I admit, are very bad and dark—there is
ample reward for the past and abundant encourage.
ment for the future. (Cheers.) After the speech of my noble
friend the member for Chichester came that of the hon. gen-
tleman the member for Canterbury. I was pleased to hear
the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down say that
he had listened to that speech with the utmost pleasure and
satisfaction. lam only very sorry to remember that the
pleasure with which the right hon. gentleman listened to
that speech, vivid and intense as it was, was not more
largely shared by hon. gentlemen on that side. (A laugh.)
My hon, and learned friend the member for Wallingford
had, I believe, left his place.—{Mr. MALINS—" No."] Was
he there ? Then, lam sorry he did not give more audible
expression to his satisfaction. Another hon. friend of mine
sitting on that side of the house has expressed the appro-
bation and sympathy with which he listened to that speech.
But I am bound to say—and I think it better to say such
things in this house, instead of going to Slough or else-
where and there delivering in animated language a descrip-
tion of the effect which particular speeches produce in this
house—that I never perceived a more marked change come
over the spirit of a portion of the House of Commons than
that which came over the spirit of those who occupy the
benches opposite, and especially the front bench, between
the time of the speech of the noble lord to which hon. mem-
bers opposite listened with such perfect rapture and the
time when they listened with unbroken silence and almost
despondency to the remarkable reasoning of the hon. mem-
ber for Canterbury. (Cheers.) So far as my ears can bear
witness to the reception of a speech, the courage of which
was not less remarkable, considering the hon. member's short
experience, than its ability—the silence on that side during
the whole of its clear, manly, and powerful reasoning on be-
half of the Italian Government was only relieved by the
cheers which the hon. member received from those who
support and approve the Italian policy of the Governmen

(Cheers and counter cheers.) However, as regards the state
of Southern Italy, in the first place we have got publicity and
in the second place we have gat from the agents of the Go-
vernment co-operation in the work of improvement. Both
these facts were established by the speech of the noble lord.
(Hoar, hear.) I agree with him that this is not all that
could be desired, and I am confident that the endeavours of
my noble friend (Lord Palmerston) and of the Government
will be directed to those humane aims which he has in view
—(hear)—and that the Italian Government being appealed
to in a friendly and respectful tone, and with the fullest
acknowledgment of its independence, will not resent these
disclosures—somewhat churlish though the manner may be
—but will feel that those who, from whatever motive,
when horrors and abuses exist, drag those horrors and
abuses into the light of day, co-operate with them, whether
they mean it or not, in the sacred objects they have in
view, and will gladly avail themselves of that assistance.
I will now say a few words on the speech which we have
just heard from the right hon. gentleman. Ido not know
with what impressions hon. members listened to that speech,
I own 1 could better understand the critical and negative
than the positive and affirmative portions of that speech.
As to the critical and negative portion, it appeared from the
clear summary the right hon. gentleman gave us that in
everything her Majesty's Government have said and in
everything they have done—in everything they have omitted
and committed, they have been entirely wrong—(laughter)
—that their efforts have been misjudged from first to last—
that they have been odious to all parties, and disastrous to
everyone concerned. (Opposition cheers.) That is, I think, a
fair summary of the right hon. gentleman's speech, and I am
glad it is echoed back as such. Well, that is the part which
England, according to the right hon. gentleman, has taken
in respect t., the Italian question. From the right hon. gen-
tleman I appeal to the Italians themselves. (Cheers,) It
said we ought to teach the Italians to depend upon them-
selves. In like manner we ought to leave them to judge for ''
themselves, and I say that they will not concur in the state•
meat of the right hon. gentleman as an impartial &scrip-

tion
opinion of the
the
proceedingsltalians themselves oefmhseerl vels ajl bstelyise vGeotvo beern thmenistitTl
the aid of material force from England they neither expect
nor desired, but that the aid of our moral force and influell
was to be expected,and had beenof great yinri lasting bens
to the cause of Italy. (Cheers.) I appeal next from the rig
hon. gentleman in vindication of the policy of her Majest3
Government to the people of England. (Cheers.) For
think the right hon. gentleman, let him select his own al
dience at Slough or elsewhere—(oh, oh, and cheers)—w.
find it difficult to bring himself anywhere, thrcuglaouttl
length and breadth of the land, in contact, in the free 141
of day, with English opinion without learning, on the 00:
trary, that—not only from party politics, but likewise, n! l.
inconsiderable degree, abs ve and beyond and indepenael
of party politics—the course taken by her Majesty's Geyev
.„
ment ever since its accession to office with respect to the It
lien question has brought a deep, hearty, and affectionai
response from the all but unanimous people of Engle.ll!
(Cheers.) Sir, to this tribunal I lodge my appeal eglt
the judgment delivered by the right hon. gentleman.
when I speak of the positive parts of the speech of the rig'
hon. gentleman, to what do they amount ? Now, what ax
his opinions about Italy ? (Hear, and laughter.) Last 31-144
we thought we understood them. I have not got his sPeef,
by me, and my memory is sometimes treacherous-41
hon. Member—" Hear, hear," and laughter] ; but
thought the right honourable gentleman was safgeielltit
~.
explicit. He told us, I think, that the question eim;
might become of the political rights of the subjece,
of the Pope was a matter of infinitely small cons
quence, but that the maintenance of the temporal Po/ver
of the Pope, with a view to securing his spiritual ~
pendence, was a matter of the utmost concern, in which
all Europe was interested. That, I think, was the effe°',,l
the speech of the right hon. gentleman. Does he adhere;
that opinion now? Has he made any progress in his °to
sideration of the Italian question ? (Laughter.) I am
to say that in my opinion he has not yet got to the ac"
rt
and root of the matter, but from partial indications Buell 00
I have not observed in his discourses before I think he ',
made a certain progress, and, possibly, if he be assisted and
encouraged, he may hereafter get on a little further;
(laughter)—for the right hon. gentleman to-night has d a
covered that Cavour was a great man—(cheers au
laughter)—and that he did much for his country, and t,,
she has suffered greatly by his removal. Unfortutlawj,:
some time has elapsed; it is not a considerable period eillbt
the death of that great man, and it has taken the riga,
hon, gentleman not only the whole duration of Cavour'S;is
—(" oh. oh I" and cheers)—but some two years after death, to make these discoveries about the genius and the
services he rendered to his country. Then the right lit)0.
gentleman says it would be an excellent thing—l think -"Id
understood him, but I speak with the greatest deference/1'
with many scruples even, as if I were endeavouring to de;
cipher some obscure telegram,or to read some ancient Mani;
script with characters much defaced. (Laughter.) ir4o
is the spirit in which I approach the speech of the rvars
hon. gentleman, and endeavour to construe it. In one Pea
I did think I heard something drop from him to the eir
that the erection of Italy into a great State, with sub11$:0;
five power and self-directed action, would be for the bella
of Europe and of England, If I understand him rigillo
I beg to congratulate him en having given utteraneeare
that opinion, because I think it shows that his opfnienly
not in a fossil state,—they are now growing and de/°.l
ing, and that there is no saying what he may come ic;
last. (Cheers and laughter.) But although I tenderlllo
these compliments, be they worth much or little, ,
bound to say that I am obliged to offer them with verY c°oo
siderable reserve; because, although it is one's duty °lir,.
every promising indication of the policy of future Geve
lo
ments—(hear, hear) —it is exceedingly important that
,01,
and the people of England should know what is the I° I
now favoured upon that bench. (Loud cheers.) For
,be
must take notice that there were parts of the speech of "
right hon. gentleman which still suggests to my wind In
givings, and even, I will frankly own, awakening rell
nance. The right hon. gentleman deprecates elt,,,rey
ews in Italy. What do extreme views mean in Italy he
mean this—these who think Italy ought to be Italy are rtrabr
of extreme views. (Hear.) What is the position of I if
at present f It is such as the case of England would be
Cornwall and Devonshire were in the possession of one fob,
reign power, and if London was garrisoned by another s
oh, and cheers.) I think if that were the state of facts
ri
England, we should find that a very large number of tr,
sons were possessed with those extreme views. (Red,'l3;--til
and laughter) —and would not altogether be satisfied-014
they had seen the one Power driven out of CornvitlB;,as
Devonshire, and the troops of the other dislodged from
don. In one point I entirely agree with the right hon' :
tleman, and I agree more fully with his friend the Pilot
member for Canterbury. I believe the hon. member jd
Canterbury in that excellent speech which he delivered 6.„
l:
nothing more true, more just, or more wise than this'l,
the true course for the Italian Government was not „t°,o4
diverted by their political objects, however inoportan',4,
essential, from civil object. (Hear, hear.) The first du
a Government undoubtedly is to look to the laws, the
tenance of order, and the wellbeing of society in tlle,o ate
tory within its control. These sentiments are comp:l°l;W
right hen. gentleman and the hon. gentleman the
arS
for Canterbury ; but how differently were they used by ,
two. The hon. member for Canterbury used them in defeB;
of the conduct of the Italian Government, showing, as 7,
as his judgment went, that they were sensible of their (11110$
and that this duty constituted their primary obligation. Pio
not ono word fell from the mouth of that hon. gentleinalltb„
disparagement of the ulterior duty of seeking to bringoo
country of Italy to its integrity and its unity. (ilear'),
right hon. gentleman quoted the member for Canter
somebody sometimes quotes Scripture. (Oh, laughtt'r for
cheers) He quoted the sound doctrine of the noerati—bits
Canterbury with regard to the primary, everyday, irldollx
to
able, imperative duty of the Italian Government to lo
the organisation of the country it possesses, for a very it
ferent purpose; he alluded to it in order to ground 11Y-the
the doctrine of political finality—the doctrine that 4
Italian who thinks Rome the natural and neclo
capital of a strong and permanent Italian kinguA°ai ie
00-
to be put down either as a revolutionist or as a dre-010,
He alluded to it for the purpose of establishingh
that the present state of things in Italy is ter'teaP"
garded territorially, though not civilly, as final. :1-8011
pears to me that the generosity of the right hon. gentle
to the Italian people consists in this, that he N'Tpi'Lnd
them everything that he cannot take from them.
laughter.) At a former period the right hon. gelltt,
was, I think, an advocate of federation. But the ;ig'
federations has gone by, and Italian freedom has ; 000
cated itself over so vast a proportion of the fen" sod
that now there is no longer room for that sche,,.°4B; arS
the right hon. gentleman, forgetting the things t."'"101,
past, abandons federation, and says, ic All veil hoe
but don't let us go further." I confess I have a„-dfir
that when the patience, moderation, intelligence, ee,".
cipline, and self-command which the Italian ;dir
have shown in so extraordinary a degree shall, in tlietoral
dom of Providence, at some early period bear their 01j3i0tt
and proper fruit in the acquisition of other territory Wbotte
in moral right belongs to them—(cheers)—when thectea
got it, and when it becomes obvious that it cannot be
zer
from them, we shall have among others the right herbb'ted
tleman walking in the rear of the triumphal car-0814000
—and joining the whole people of England in their gee-t
acclamations upon so happy a consummation.
.8111ci/
say that it critical times were to come, I have 0", - l
nog eat
confidence in the right hon. gentleman's Italian fee';„ de
If there were to be a reaction, if foreign force were /ea
something towards breaking up what is now united Int ate
I feel no absolute confidence in my own mind that
right hon. gentlemen would not fall back on his tlec
of federation. He is, I am afraid, in an inn/lad:3oA
(laughter)—his mind greatly wants to be strengthellegalea
encouraged in the good cause, and nothing will strinaoolo4
and encourage it so much as a strong and universaL, osif:
ration in favour of Italy on the part of the people 14 a tliP
land. And let the right hon. gentleman understanv fe
it will not do for him, it will not do for his friends, lose
culcate those equivocal doctrines—(cheers)—to litteri•glo°
ambiguous sounds in the face of the nation, which "a'up its
made up its mind to anything on earth, has made
mind to this, that Italy ought to be one and tila'a the
ought to be free. (Loud cheers.) It; on one 11811;140
policy of her Majesty's Government has not operate" test
the charm of magic, still less is it true, on the 002°710004
it has irritated those with whom we ought to ce, the
alliance, Too well does France appreciate, too well de ion
Emperor of the French understand the action of oPto
in this country to suppose that any Government tattle!!
construed as feeling other than the most friendlylie-it de'
towards France, because on occasions of this kill' 00:
not dissociate itself from the universal enthusiastic 0f
tions of the English people. Although the PelicYla.Zvi
Government may not have operated, as I have 81•11.000te
magic force in precipitating events towards a eellitioted to
tion so glorious that, perhaps, it could hardly be elcP
be reached except after some tract of time, yet that
o'orsbir
I assert, has been leniently, indulgently, and
of 171_,1
judged. Nay more; it constitutes one of the titles eople-
„
noble friend to the confidence and approval of tile Lived 11:1
(cheers),—because they believe it has been eel' wise and
equity and justice, and that is directed towards
towards a righteous end. (Enthusiastic cheering') 011
The amendment was then withdrawn. The 11„,., od°.
we
into Committee of Supply, and immediately row- zealot'
The Offences (South Africa) Bill and the New
Boundaries Bill were read a second time.

OOR R BILL. bill
Sir H. BRUOPE moved theEMOVAL second reading °f bill. b.
Mr. DUNLOP moved as an amendment that tbe
read a second time that day six months.
Mr. AYttTON seconded the amendment.
The house divided. The numbers were-- 9
For the second reading ................ 63
Against it ............................ 49
Majority ....................
The bill was thus lost.
The house adjourned at 25 minutes to 2 o'cleet.

Ot
London : Printed and Published by WILLIAIIII eps f
o. 'fir
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at uE Surf Oluct.;otipti°
Strand, in the Precinct of the T
3avoy,lll ile w
hitddleaex.—Saturday, May 9, Ma,