The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-07 00:00:00

THE SCOTCH JUDGES.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
he had been asked whether it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to till up the blanks in the Scotch Judges Bill.
It was the invention of the Government to propose that the
salrries of the Lord President and of the Lord Justice
Clerk should be left as at present, and that the salaries of
the other Judges be raised to the sum of 3,0001. a year.
Sir GEO. CLERK thought the salaries of the Chief
Judges ought to be raised to 1,0001.
RAW COTTON.

Mr. WII, S 0 N pArr EN, seeing the Honourable
Menthol- fur Manchester in his place, wished to put a ques-
tion to him relative to a motion winch he made during the
last Session, relative to the duty on Raw Cotton. He
wished to know whether it was his intention to introduce
that motion again during the present Session, and if it was
when he intended to do so.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS said there was no disinclination on
his part to bring the subject forward, as there was gre it
necessity for it. He was not, however, quite prepared to
say on what day he should call the attention of the House
to the matter. If he did bring it forward it would be after
the Easter recess, but whether he brought it forward or not
would depend in a great degree upon the financial
statement of the Government.

Sir ROBERT PEEL seeing the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland out of his place—( Laughter, the
Noble Lord being then engaged in conversing with the
Speaker)—wished to ask him whether it was his inten-
tion to bring up the Report of the Committee on the Irish
Railway Bill on Friday next ?
Lord MO R PETII said he must consult his Noble Friend
at the head of the flume Department, before he answered
that question.
Sir C. SINCLAIR presented petitions from different
parts of Scotland, praying for Church Extension in Scot-
land, and ainst anv alteration in the Curn-laws.
Sir F. TRENCiII gave notice that he would call the
attention of the House to the present manner of lighting
the House, On Friday. . .

Sir H. H ARDISIGE gave notice that on going into
Committee on the Army Estimates, he would move for
returns respecting the increase or decrease on the pensions
of the Chelsea pensioners.
Sir H. INGL IS intended to have put a question to the
Noble Lord the Secretary fur Foreign Affairs, relative to
the Slave Trade. As he was not in his place, he begged
leave to give notice that on Friday week he would put that
question.
Lord SA NDON, following the example of his Hun.
Friend, had intended, also, to have put a question relative
to the slave trade. Ile gave notice that he would take the
same opportunity of doing so.
Sir R. PEEL seeing the Hon. Member for Windsor in
his place, begged to ask when they might expect to see
the papers relative to the north-west frontier of India laid
en the table of the House.
Mr. GORDON understood that the papers would be
ready on Friday next.
THEATRES,
Mr. T. DUNCO MBE wished to ask a question of the
Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department,
understanding that her Majesty's Ministers bad taken
strong measures to defeat the resolution which that
House had come to the other evening, respecting
the theatres in Westminster.—( Hear, hear.) He begged
to ask whether the Noble Lord would have any objection
to lay upon the table of the House the whole of the corre-
spondence which had passed between the Lord Cham-
berlain and the lessee of Drury-lane Theatre.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would, in the first place,
deny that her Majesty's Ministers had taken any strong
measures to defeat the resolution of that House--(
cries of " Hear, hear").—and, with regard to the question
of the Hon. Member, he had HO objection to lay before
the House the corre,pondence which had taken place be-
tween the Lord Chamberlain and the Lessee of Drury-
lane Theatre.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—The Noble Lord had denied
that any measures had been resorted to by her Majesty's
G.)vernment to defeat the resolution of that House, but he,
(Mr. D.) e..ould prove that very unprecedented measures
had been taken by them for that purpose. He hoped there
would be no delay in giving that correspondence, because
he believed the honour, and character, and independence,
of that House were involved in the course which her Ma-
jesty's Ministers had presumed to take, The Hon.
Member then moved for a copy of any correspondence be-
tween Monday last and tl-e present time,
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it would tend to
the convenience of legislation in that HOW.", and the public
service generally, if those who had Orders of the Day would
allow the Navy Estimates to comp on as early as possible,

. _
RAILWAYS (IRELAND)
Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to ask what course the
Noble Lord intended to take with respect to Irish rad.
ways, and whether it was intended to take the Report on
the grant of 2 500,0001. on Friday next.
Lord JO IIN RUSSELL said it would not come on on
Friday or Monday, but he would give notice of the day on
which he intended to bring it forward.
CANADA.
• Sir ROBERT PEEL said the house had been
taught to believe that a measure respecting the pre.
sent position of Canada would be brouOit forward by
her Majesty 'a Government. He begged to ask the Noble
Lord whether the House might expect before Easter a
Bill containing the views of tier Majesty's Government on
the subject ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen was perfectly justified in asking the question, but
as there were points with regard to that important mea.
surewhich might require to be re-considered or re-examined,
it would be much safer to say that immediately after
Easter, and not before it, he should propose to bring
in the Bill, and lay before the House the measures that
they proposed to take.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it would be very desirable to
know if any accounts had been received of the horrible
butchery perrtrated on unarmed prisoners by Colonel
Rine lithe Government had received any information on
the subject, he hoped it would be laid before the House. The
statement was that one of these men who had been taken
by a party of the 34th Regiment, commanded by Captain
Broderip, had appealed to them for protection, having
fallen into the hands of a British offiecr. It would be
satisfactory if the Government would state whether
they had received any information on the subj,ct.

EVENING EDITION

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that any statement he
might mike, not having. the circumstances immediately pre-
sent t) his mind, ninght not perlia[!i be correct, but he begged
the House not to conclude from his not answering the qtirs-
Con then, that there was any thing to blame Colohel
Prince for, or that the circumstances could not be ex-
plained.
O'CONNEL L then gave notice that lie would
repeat the question to-morrow.
CHURCH-RATES.

Mr. FITZROY KELLY wished to know whether the
Government intended to propose any measure this Session
for the abolition of the Church-rates, or for the settlement
of the Church-rate question ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not think he could give
any answer to the question at present, but perhaps in the
course of a week or ten days he might be able to do so.
HIGHWAY BILL.
Mr. BA RNEBY moved the Order of the Day for going
into Committee on the Highway Bill.
Sir G. STRICKLAND said he felt it to be his
duty to move that the Bill be committed that day six
months. On the second reading of the Bill he had stated
his strong objections to it. It was a Bill which proposed to
take the management of all parish Boards out of the hands
of the landed proprietors and farmers who now had the ma-
nagement of them, and to place it in the hands of a Board
to be appointed under the Bill. He would not consent to
any such alteration unless an absolute necessity could be
shown for it. The people were perfectly satisfied with the
present management of the Parish Roads, and in his opi-
nion no such necessity existed. He recollected that when
Mr. M'Adam first undertook the management of the
Roads in his (Sir G. Strickland's) district, that gentleman
gave it as his decided opinion, that as the Turn-
pike roads were improved an improvement would take
place in the parish roads as a consequence, and the event
had shown the correctness of this opinion. He had also
had another ground of objection to the Bill as it had been
originally introduced into the House—it had been pro.
posed to place the management of the roads in the hands
of the Board of Guardians of the Poor-law Unions,
now he considered that the Board of Guardians of the
Poor-law Unions had ample work to do—( Hear, hear,
hear)—and as he was anxious to see the Poor-law
Amendment Act working well, he should strenuously op-
pose the Board of Guardians under that Act being burdened
with any other duties. Had the Billipassed with this pro-
vision, the Board of Guardians would soon has become what
the Grand Juries in Ireland had been under the old system.
Bodies meeting for one particular purpose, but spending
their time in jobbing the high roads. He was fully aware
that the Honourable Member had altered this part
of the Bill, and that he now proposed to create a
Board for the management of parish roads, co-exi3tent
with the Board of
,G,4rdiaan of the Poor-law UMons.
Under this Bill thei'e we surveyor appointed for
twenty townships. Nowittaaias a maxim with Mr. Mac-
adam, that one surveyor could only superintend twenty
miles of road. Buf this list would compel a surveyor to
attend to no letesthan a hundred and four miles of road.
1 her what an additional number of ho s s would be required.
This appeared to him to be such a cumbrous piece of ma-
chinery that it could never work. If the Hon. Member
wished to take the management of the roads out cf the
hands of farmers he must introduce a different Bill front
the present. He thought the Hon. Member could not
have read the Bill, for there was one clause which legalised
bull.hiating.—( A laugh.) The clause provided that it
should not be legal to bait a bull, "on, or upon, or near,
any road," evidently implying that it might be done off the
road. Und,r all the circumstances, he should move
that the Bill go into Committee this day six months.
Mr. BARN EB Y wished to address a few words to
the House in support of the Bill. It was not his intention
to press that part of the Bill which placed the Guardian-
ship of the Roads under the Guardians of the Unions,
but what he proposed was, that a separate Board should Ise
appointed for that purpose.
alr. SLANE Y hoped his Hon. Friend would not decide
against a Bill of this nature in its present state. Thera
Committees had sat to consider the question, and by their
united efforts the Bill had been brought into its present
shape. All sides agreed that it was necessary there should
he some improvement in the management of the highways
of this country. A system might easily be produced by
which the roads might be made twice as good for one-half
the expense.
After a few words from Col. SIBTHORP,
Mr. R. PA LMER said, that so far as the measure
went, to appoint district surveyors, he thought the arrange-
ment judicious, but, withax tete. the proposition for
placing the superintenda.octorilatss loads under the Ma-
nagement of a Board, he would decidedly object to it.
Mr. FIELD EN supported the amendment that tire Bill I
be committed this day six months. This was nothing but
an attempt to take the local government out of the hands of
those who had contributed towards the repair of tire
highways.
TheStt; a forrusgs
oev
then
then
idor
eer dd rwed
Committee
etno w
th eitrhedr a
t
ap w.
p e
ared-
-196
Against it
Majority for going into Committee —l73 si;
On our re. admission to the gallery, we found the House
in Committee.
Colonel SIB'FIIORP was understood to object to
the Gth Clause.
An HoN. MultnEtt moved that the clause he omitted.
After a few words from Mr. LANGFORD and Mr.
B. CLIVE,

Sir R. PEEL said, as he understood the matter, a
large landed proprietor had been permitted to change
the direction of a highway, and he had undertaken to
keep that highway in repair, and the property bad sinci,
become subject to the liability of repairing it. die
thought it quite right that that liability should continuo
on the property.
Mr. AGLIONBY said the case put by the Right
Hon. Baronet might be a good and consistent bargain
between the parties most immediately connected, but he
doubted whether it would be binding on the public.
Clause 6, as amended, was agreed to. •
Clause 7 was withdrawn, and the clauses up to 14
were postponed.
Mr. BARNA BY proposed some alteration in clause
14. He stated as part of his reasons that it would be
necessary to revise those provisions affecting parishes.
For in a parish that was entire, so far as the Poor-law
Amendment Act went was sub-divided into nine or ten
districts for the Poor-rates.

Mr. HUME thought it would he better to postpone
those alterations until the House could sec them in their
printed shape.
Lord J. RUSSELL was of the same opinion.
Sir G. STRICKLAND thought the further consi-
deration of this question should he adjourned until after
Easter, in order that the country might have an oppor-
tunity of well considering it.

Lord DUNGANNON was also understood to sa•,•
that postponment was advisable.
Lord EGERTON also concurred. One of the
greatest difficulties in inducing small farmers to become
Members of Union Boards of Guardians, was, that

they had often to ride nine or ten miles a day to buii.
ness ; and, besides, to be at the expenee of refreshments
for themselves anti their horses. He was desirous to
have smaller districts under this Bill, if its object was

to save expense. District surveyors ought to be ap-
pointed ; then the inhabitants should have the manage-
ment of their own rates.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS objected to the clause in its
present shnpe.
Lord ELIOT said the whole system ought to be
placed on a better footing. He thought his Hon.
Friend below him would exercise a sound discretion if

he gave way on this point.
Mr. SLANEY thought that his Hon. Friend should
introduce the clause and submit it to the House on a
future occasion.

Lord STAN LEY recommended the postponement of
these clauses until after Easter—(Hear, hear)—but it
was the anxious wish of his Hon. Friend to obtain a
declaration of the House, in order to enable him to
frame the clauses on one system or the other.
Mr. HUME thought the larger the districts were
the better. If the House gave any opinion as to the
extent of the Unions, he was for the largest extce4netrine.
Colonel WOOD said the House should
whether these new districts should be of the same size
as the Poor-law Unions. If the system were to be al-
tered, the best way would be to confine the repair of the
roads to the Boards at present in existence.
Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE suggested to his lion.
Friend to withdraw these clauses and introduce some
others. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny, that it was desirable to have a large district, but
he believed no one surveyor would undertake the duty.
Mr. G. PALMER was sorry to say that the estab-
lishment of Boards and Commissions seemed to be the
universal order of the day on both sides niche House.
—( Hear, hear, from Col. Sibthorp, creat( d
general laughter.) On no consideration ought any
further power to be given to the Boards of Guardians
throughout the country. He was afraid the time
would come when those Boards would rule even that
House itself.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Lord DUNGANNON was opposed to the estab-
lishment of Boards in any shape, and was glad the
sense of the House was to be taken on this question.
He entirely concurred in what had fallen from the
thei.(
Hon. Member,lleitof
appointment fCoromEmssiessxionsTaorrsi‘uTed that h,
apaatssonle'adeout
scarcely cross the street without being afraid of
stumbling against a Coinmission.—(Laughter.)
He
should give his vote in favour of the proposition of the
Hon. Member for Cheshire.
Colonel SIBTHORP protested against the ap„
pointnlent of any further Commissions, which only put
the country to a great deal of useless expense.
Mr. AGLIONBY said Hon. Gentlemen were
straying frain the real question before the House, which
was what should be the boundary of the district, and
whether it ought not to be co-extensive with the Poor-

law Union.
Sir JOHN OWEN was opposed to the appointment
of al Boards—(Hear, bear, from Colonel Sibthorp)___
but if there was to be a Board appointed he would ad-
vise his lion. Friend to compose it of Barristers of six
months' standing,.—(Laughter.)
Mr. PALMER thought it very desirable that a
district surveyor should be appointed—to be appointed
by the Magistrates. As the Bill stood there was no
saving how far the espense might go. That being his
opinion if lion. Friend divided the House, he must
votewiEthhEinli l%lr. GTON moved that the clause he omitted
alt ogether.
Captain WOOD thought the House ought to have
time to consider the new proposition which had been
brought before them. He would therefore move that

yrairutn report progress and ask leave to sit
aain.

flet• 'a few observations from Mr. Barneby,
Mr. EGERTON trusted the Hon. Member for
1449 ex would withdraw his motion for reporting pro-
gr-40s ; if he did not, he should feel compelled to vote
for the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Wor-
cestershire.

Mr. TUMBLE considered that the House was dis-
cussing a clause that was not now before it.
Lord DUNGANNON was decidedly opposed to
there being a Board, but as it was the intention of the
lion. Member to frame a new clause, he thought that the
House ought to come to a decision upon the question
now before it.

After a few observations from Mr. DARBY, strangers
were ordered to withdraw, but the question of reporting
progress was negatived without a division.
Strangers were again ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided upon the question whether the clause
should be expunged or not, when there appeared—

For the Clause 63
Against it
Majority in favour of the Clause--20

Another division then took place upon the question
—Whether the Divisions under the Bill should be cc-
extensive with those of the Poor-law Bill, when the
numbers were—
For the moti)n 4O

Against it..,

66

..--26

Majority against it
The House then resumed.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.

Lord DUNGANNON said that in consequence of
the absence of the Noble Lord, the Member for
Bath, who was to have seconded the motion, he
would postpone his motion relative to Maynooth, till
Frilay next, when he would bring it forward on Com-
mittee of Supply.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Noble Lord would
not move it on Supply, when he could bring it forward
on any other occasion.

Lord DUNGANNON said, in the discharge of
what lie bc:lieved to be his duty, he should bring forward
'he motion on Friday as he had stated.
SUPPLY.

The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
On the first vote being proposed,
Sr GEORGE CLERK said he would tike that
-PPortiraity of replying to the observations made by
the Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary to
.the
Admiralty, on Monday night. That lion. Gentleman
:ad not succeeded in removing the impression on his
(S:r G. Clerk's) mind, that the state of the naval force
of this country was not in a satisfactory condition. He
had attempted toprove that the Navy must be necessarily
in an e'Ticient state at present, because the estimates
this yell- exceeded in amount those which had been pro-
posed for several previous years. How, asked the Hon.
Ge itlemin, could the present Board of Admiralty be
..reesed of neglect when they asked for a vote exceed-
g in amount any that has been asked for the pre-
'ding years. There was this fallacy running
throughout the argument of the Honourable
- , Gentlemen with regard to this subject ; he
had assumed that because only a certain amount of
force had been required at any one time during preceding
years, therefore only a proportionate amount of force
was nk,-c,:.ssary to be kept up now. The Hon. Gentle-
/ man had said that the reduction had not been made by
the present Government, but was entirely owing to the ill-
- fudged parsimony of the preceding Tory Government.
He (Sir George Clerk) had, on more than one occa-
sion, tied the honour of bringing forward the Navy
Estimates, and he had never at those times been ac-
cused of an ill.juded parsimony. Whatever might be
the amount he had proposed for men or for stores, the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny had always been consistent
is proposing a redaction upon the amount required for
either of those purposes. In the year 1835,which the Hen.
Gentlemen opposite was sn anxious to contrast with the
present year as regarded this question, the number of
men prodo:;ed to be voted for the service of the
Royal Marines was 36,500 ; upon this vote the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny had proposed a reduction of
5,000 men. It was perfectly clear that the amount of
Naval force required at any particular time must de-
pend entirely upon what might be considered to he the
exlgenci€L; of the State, and that what might have been
insufficient in 1835 might appear extravagant in 1839.
THrefore there was no force in the argument which
had been repeated over and over again by the Hon.
Gentleman opposite that these reductions had been
rtesdo by the Government of the Hon. Member for
T 1111VOrth —( Hear, hear)—because that reduction
ini,slit have been fully justified by the circumstances
in which the country was at that time placed. His
Noble Friend, who had formerly brought forward those
estimates, who was then in the House, would be more
I able than himself (Sir G. Clerk) to state the reasons
for those reductions should it become necessary to
rue that point, and in the succeeding year the
Noble Lord the Secretary of State had sail that the
vote of the preceding year had not been dispropor-
tionate. The Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty had
quoted, with reference to this question, the expres-
Sion
which had been used by a Noble Earl who was
at that time First Lord of the Admiralty. Now
the substance of what had been stated by that Noble
1 Earl was this, that when he came.into office he found in
the preceding year the number of men who had been
voted amounted to 27,500 ; of this number 17,300 had
been voted as seamen ; but on coming into office he had
found that the number of seamen actually employed
amounted only to 15,500, and seeing nothing in the cir-
cumstances of the country, with regard to our foreign
1 relations, which seemed to render any increase neces•
nary, he was content to ask for a vote for the same num-
ber of men as had been found sufficient in the preceding
3 year. Was that amount insufficient ? In order to
answer this question, let Hon. Members look to the re-
turn of the number of ships in commission on the Ist
of December, 1834, when the Government of the Hon.
Member for Tamwnrth came into office ; and the
number of ships in commission on the Ist of
December, 1836, when the Navy was under the con-
troul of the Hon. Gentleman opposite. They would find
that on the Ist of December, 1834, the number of sea-
men employed amounted to 15,500, and the number of
vessels in commission to 160, of which 11 were ships of
the line. In 1836 the number of ships in commission
amounted to 167, of which 12 were ships of the line, '
besides several frigates of a large class ; and in bringing
forward the estimates for the year 1837, the Hon.
Gentleman had taken great credit for proposing that
the number of seamen should only be 15,502, so that
the number of seamen voted exceeded those employed
under Earl de Grey by two only. He must say that
these grounds of defence were not satisfactory. The
amount of the vote to be proposed to the Committee
must depend entirely upon the position of the country
with regard to other maritime powers. He would say that,
with regard to this question, he did not consider that the
responsibility rested so much on the Board of Admiralty
as on the Cabinet, because the necessity for the employ-
ment of the naval force, must be decided by them. These
objections would indeed apply to the First Lord of the
Admiralty with greater force, because beine. a Member
of the Cabinet, he had an opportunity of conferring
with his colleagues on the subject, and stating his rea-
sons to them. The Members of the Government col-
lectively, and not the Board of Admiralty, were the
persons who were obnoxious to the charges which had
been brought forward on this subject. The Foreign
Secretary was the person who was more immediately
r!sponsible, as it was on the view which he took of the
situation of this country with regard to Foreign Powers
that the disposition of the naval forces must in a great
measure be regulated. In 1836 the Hon. Member op-
posite had stated, or rather had hinted, at reasons which
had induced the House to surmise that there
existed a necessity for the presence of an increased
naval force,_in South America, the West Indies,
and elsewhere, for the protection of our commerce.
The Honourable Member corroborated his view of
having a large force ; there was no difference of opinion
as to the necessity of making that large addition to our
naval force, in order that its moral effect might be aug-
mented. It was a matter of great regret that the state
of their foreign relations required in the Mediterranean
a squadron which must be considered as a war esta-
blishment. The House would recollect, that at the
time the lion. and Gallant Admiral (Codrington) was
in the Mediterranean, although their position was at that
period critical, it was not thought necessary to send so
large a force as ten sail of the line there. He believed the
whole force under the Gallant Admiral's command as a
permanent force did not exceed three sail of the line.
If unfortunately the foreign policy of the Noble Lord
at the head of Foreign Affairs, if the result of all pro-
tocols and diplomacy was to excite the jealousy of the
other maritime nations of the Mediterranean, it was
upon him and not upon the Board of Admiralty that
the responsibility of the great augmentation of their
naval force in that part of the word, and which had
deprived other stations of their proper protection was
to devolve. If the portfolio of the Noble Lord exhi-
bited nothing but distrust and jealousy of the power of
Great Britain on the part of other countries, it was
certainly a matter of great regret. But to the Government
having placed the country in that position, he feared
the system must be carried on, and the estimates in
creased. If it now appeared to him (Sir G. C.)
that very inadequate provision had been made for
the protection of the harbours and shores of Great
Britain, he trusted the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
would not say that he was urging the House to a more
extravagant vote ; because the Hon. Member was as
much to blame as others if the country was placed. in
that position. He would remind the Hon. Member
that when the attention of the House had been drawn
to the state of their Foreign affairs by Hon. Members
on his (Sir G. C.'s) side of the House, he had never
given them the least support. On the contrary he had
given support to that Government which had brought
the country into the predicament which rendered that
treat additional expense necessary. He was sorry the
noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
`vas
not in his place. It appeared as if he thought his
duty there a sinecure.—(Hear, hear.) He was very
'eldotri seen in that House, and he regretted that on so
"'Portant a question as the Navy Estimates the Noble
Lord had nut thought it worth his while to come down

to the House. Hon. Members would recollect that the 1
question had been brought forward by the Government it-
self on a day which was extremely inconvenient, and when
great questions were not generally introduced. If the Go-
vernment thought that the state of the'r relations with
the great maritime powers of the,Mediterranean required
the appearance of a large force, did they imagine that
the people of England would forget that these nations
had fleets elsewhere—did they suppose that other coun-
tries did not look to the amount of force which that
country had in its ports, or cruising about t!.s shores.
If it were found necessary to have so large a force in
the Mediterranean, might not the country participate
in the apprehensions or the Hon. Member for Birming-
ham that it would be prudent to have a considerable ,
force in the vicinity of the British shores in case of the
appearance of a foreign fleet in the Channel ? He had
before him a statement of the number of ships in com-
mission on the Ist December, 1838, at the home
stations of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Sheerness, and
he found that there was one ship of a first-rate at each of
these three ports. When he turned to the
next page to see what state of preparation
they were in for sea, it. turned out that it would
require the united crews of all the three ships
to enable one of them to put to sea.—(Loud cries of
Hear, hear.") In the next column he found that
there was not a ship of the second rate on the home
station ; of the third rate there was none ; of the
fourth rate, none ; of the fifth rate, none ; of the sixth
rate, none ; and of sloops of war, none. He found that
there were no steam vessels of war on the home station,
but there were 6 gun brigs at Portsmouth, and 2 gun
brigs at Sheerness. It appeared therefore that these
small gun boats were the whole force which that country
could produce against the appearance of the fleet of any
other nation on the shores of that country.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—That was on the Ist of
December, 1838.
Sir GEORGE CLERK admitted that that might
have occurred by_accident on the Ist of Dec. ,'
but if he referred to the Ist of Dec., 1837, the force
was precisely the same, the only difference being that
there was then five gun boats, and the whole addition
to the naval force on the home station, in the course
of a year, was one gun boat.—(Hear, hear.) He asked
Honourable Gentlemen, supposing an • emergency did
arise, what means had they to get a squadron for the
defence of their coasts? Formerly they used to have
guard ships with half fhcir complement of men, and with
their stores, and guns, and sails on hostel, ready to put
to sea at a moment's notice ; and they had facilities
from the Coast Blockade Depot to man these ships on
a very short notice.— (Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Gentleman, the Secretary of the Admiralty, had told
them that he considered it unnecessary to have any ships
in their habours. He seemed to think it enough to
have one or two fast sailing steam-boats to send to the
%Vest Indies, or the Mediterranean, or North America,
in order to pick up a squadren and assemble them. He
did hear it stated somewhere that they had nine dis-
pwahle ships of the line for home service. He asked where
were they ? There were none finless they sent
all over the world to collect them. Suppose unfortu-
nately an emergency did arise how were their mer-
chant ships homeward-bound to be protected from cap-
ture, if it was necessary in the first instance to collect
those ships? He was not singular in supposing that it
was necessary to have a large force at the home station,
for he should quote to the House as an authority in his
favour, the words of a Noble Lord (Lord John
Russell) opposite, on the occasion of a large
increase. being proposed to their naval force. The
Noble Lord said that it would be unadvisable to
withdraw from abroad that naval force that was necea-
sessary for the protection of the foreign trade of the
country, and which might also be required on some
account arising out of the foreign relations of the
country. A multiplicity of contingencies might there
arise, and he added that while it was necessary to keep
up an effective force in various parts of the world, at the
same time our experience of the history of Europe :aught
us that we should have a sufficient force to protect the
neighbourhood of our shores. This was the opinion of
the Right Honourable Secretary of State in the year
1833 ; with that opinion he (Sir G. Clerk) entirely con-
curred. He said the arguments that were now used,
were completely borne out by the Noble Lord then.
It. was not for him (Sir G. C.) to speak upon expediency.
That was a question which the naval authorities of the
Government should form an opinion on, from the in-
formation officially in their possession. When Sir
George Colburn was before the Committee in 1838,
the present Hon. Member for Kilkenny asked what
he thought ought to be the precise amount of peace
complement for this country. The reply of the Gallant
Officer was, that he could not state exactly, but that
if this country was at perfect peace with foreign
powers, not apprehending any risk of war, or
any misinterpretation of treaties, we should require
no force abroad whatever, and if there were no
pirates, we should require no protection, for our
trade almost depended upon the state of our
foreign relations. Being next asked whether the nine
line-of battle ships we had then at home were fit to be
immediately sent to sea, and had their full complements
of men, his answer' was, that the ships were ready
but the mea were not ; all the guard ships having had
their complements reduced from 600 to 30C men. In
proof of the state of the ships, he added that if the
Ministt:rs were determined to send a force to Portugal,
the ships were ready within three days after their deter-
mination. When he was asked if the ships were not
ready, and the men were to be procured, what length of
time it might take to prepare, he replied the
requisite time would not be more than six months in

such a state of things.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now
he would ask the Honourable Gentlemen on the other
side, whether that information was at all satisfactory to
them under the present circumstances ?--(Hear, hear.)
Having reduced our guard-ships, and not having pro-
vided even shadow of a substitute, we were now in a
situation, that if we required to send ships immediately
to sea, it would, according to the opinion Of the most
distinguished authorities, require six months to get them
ready. It might be said that the whole of them were in
ordinary. but we were not in an adequate state to send
first-rates to sea, within any moderate time, when more-
over, their complements were reduced from 900 to 750
men. Sir G. Colburn when asked whether it would be
possible with prudence to reduce the force of our home
station, replied, certainly not. It would be exposing
the country to great risk, if we had not at least, as we
then had, nine guard ships, though only half manned,
ready for sea at a moment's notice. Referring to the
comparative wisdom and economy of having ships
in ordinary as now, instead of those guard ships, he
would ask the Hon. Member for Kilkenny would not
the expense of bringing them forward now be very
much increased, while the time of preparation would be
much prolonged ? No doubt we would be forced to
offer ()Teeter pay to the men, and there would be a great
difficulty in procuring men by any means. If a war was
to arise under such circumstances the enemy would,
during the six months which we should occupy in pre-
paration, be enabled to capture all our merchant-ships,
and force their crews into their service.—(Hear, hear.)
Now he would ask the House was this a state of
things that ought to be continued ?—(Hear, hear.)
It might be said, in reply to him, that our stores
were abundant, the other departments of our naval
service had been improved, and the Chancellor of
the Exchequer might say that as this was no time to
press upon him for money for the defence of our shores
a risk might be run, and our disposable ships might be
sent to foreign stations. Such might be the reasons for
a temporary absence of defence for our shores, but he
would ask the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wood),
and the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, how long it would be prudent to continue so ?
—(Hear, hear.) He would remind them that foreign
Powers were accurately informed of the state of our
Navy, that our defenceless condition was a great
temptation to an attempt at aggression on their part,
and that in case of any diplomatical misunderstand-
ing, one of those Powers might, before we had
any practical reason for apprehension, have three or
four line of battle ships stationed in one of our ports.
—( Heat., hear.) He (Sir George Clerk) felt very
strongly upon this question, although he felt his inade-
quacy to impress it upon the House, but he trusted
that as the Board of Admiralty had been for
the last six months making great exertions for the im-
provement of the dock-yard, they would also take care
that the vote now before them should enable them to
have our harbours well guarded in future ; and lest some
blame might rest with the naval departments, here it
might be asked, whether they had allocated all the means
the Government had at their disposal? The Govern-
ment of 1835 was blamed for not having, proposed a
vote of more than 16,500 men. Now, during the last
two years the vote 1001 been 23,965 men, and he
would ask whether the Government had employed that
force ? It had not. It was deficient 3,000 men in the
first year, and 2,000 men last year. Now he would
say that if those 2,000 men were raised and placed on
board ships then, and not until then, would the Govern-
ment be relieved from the obloquy it was now exposed
to. The Honourable Gentleman in his speech
the other night, said that there was always
a -difficulty of procuring seamen, when our fo-
reign trade was in a state of prosperity. He admitted
this, and therefore the Board of Admiralty were the
more to be blame, in not having a sufficient disposable
force immediately within call, for, as in other trades, the
number of persons occupied in our mercantile, and fo-
reign, and royal navies, was not much more than could
find employment, therefore the Admiralty should always
have a large number of men distributed in active ships,
and by transferring and collecting those a beneficial
squadron could be manned then, if entirely new crews
were to be provided. He entirely concurred with Sir
George Colburn, that now the most violent means must
be resorted to, indeed our merchant navy must be
swept from the channel before a fleet could be suffi-
ciently manned to meet an emergency. He did believe
with the Honourable Gentleman on the other side
that we had not fallen from our maritime pre-eminence.
That depended upon our commercial marine, and the
incre ise of merchant seamen ; and he will very glad to
find that the observations made by the Hon. Member
for Kendal on the first night of the Session respecting i

an increase in those departments, were fully corroborated '
by the Hon. Member for Halifax the other night ; but
he would remind the House that of the 200,000 men
stated to be in our merchant service, a very great por-
tion was always abroad. It would therefore be neces-
sary to impress those in our harbours, if we wanted to
get a force ready immediately. In Case of a war we
should have to take every seaman out of our homeward
bound tt'ade, aad have ten or twelve cruisers immediately
in the Channel, or a swarm of the enemy's pri-
vateers would intercept the cargoes destined for our
ports, and make the crews in charge of them prisoners.
If it was required on a sudden emergency to fit out nine
or ten line of battle ships, instead of doing so in six
days, as was done in 1826, they could not do it in six
months ; for the difficulty of manning them increased
in proportion to the number they had to man. They
might man in six days the Powerful, but if five or
six were required, they would not find the requisite
number of men for three months. Looking merely to
the means of providing the crews, they were not
in a situation in which it would be prudent to
allow the country to remain. With respect to
the guard ships, it was said to be expedient to
take the crews out of them, but to keep the ships in
nearly the same state of preparation—that they should
have their lower masts and lower rigging fitted ; but
could Hon. Gentlemen opposite shelter themselves un-
der the regulations which had been issued by his Right
Hon. Friend, who first introduced the demonstration
ships? They had departed from the position which he
had laid down, and reduced them to the condition of
ships in ordinary. Sir G. Colburn stated to the com-
mittee, that in 1787 and 1790, it was necessary to make
large naval armaments in consequence of the force hav-
ing been kept down. Whenever any dispute arose
with a foreign nation, it was necessary to make an
armament. Therefore, when the difficulties with Spain
and Portugal arose, he (Sir George Clerk) was sent
for to be consulted as to what preparation might be ne-
cessary, and his answer was nothing—we have ships
ready—we have men on the coast blockade, and when-
ever you tell me it is necessary to make a movement, I
will answer for having twelve sail of the line ready
in three days.—(Cheers.) And so it happened. Suppose
the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs should now inform
the Gallant Admiral that it was necessary to fit out
three or four sail of the line for the West Indies cr
the Gulf of Mexico, he should like to know what an-
swer the Gallant Admiral would make the Foreign Se-
cretary ? Three months or six months would be neces-
sary before these ships were ready.—( Hear, hear.) Now
as to the state of the stores. It was admitted that great
exertions had been made during the past year in the ma-
nufacture of masts, &c., and it was said that the stores
were in a very reduced state, but it was owing
to an ill judged parsimony.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Not having the advantage of any official documente, he was obliged
to speak from memory, but he would appeal to the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny whether the complaint against them bad nor been
that they were always accumulating stores.—(Hear, hear.) It that
was so they had erred on the safe side. But at the conclusion of
the last war, when they had net less than 620 pennants flying, and
when 400 ships were dismasted, it was not to be wondered at that
there should be a great accumulation of stores. There was a great
accumulation of old stores in consequence of various ships having
been broken up. Then the Hon. Member had made some obser.
vations upon a speech said to have been delivered by a Noble Lord
in the other House (the Earl of Hardwicke). He considered that
the statements made by the Hon. Member completely bare out the
statements of the Noble Lord—(Oh, oh)—at least from what he un.
derstood to be the views of that Noble Lord. The First Lord of
the Admiralty had asserted that there were thirty sail of the line,
for which masts, rigging, anti stores could be provided, and
that out of those thirty ships there were thirteen demonstration ships
peculiarly ready for sea. But then it has been shown that if the
Revenge had been supplied with a mast, one of the thirty vessels
must have been deprived of her mast.—(" No, no," from Mr. C.
Wood.) Great exertions had been made in oar clock-yards during
the administration of the Duke of Wellington, and he thought
those persons who had called the attention of the public to the state
of our Navy, were deserving of great praise; and he thought the
Hon. Member for Bristol was justified in stating that, much to the
credit of his brother, Captain Berkeley, an increase in the comple-
ments of ships had been speedily determined upon by the
Admiralty.—(Hear, hear.) After he had published his state-
ments—after his ineffectual endeavour to prevail on the Admiralty
to exert themselves, he was justified instating his views to the public
He wished to call the attention of the Admiralty and the House to
the subject of the complements of ships. He trusted the Admiralty
would not send a ship to sea without a sufficient nernber of men to
manage her, and he denied that the Admiralty had power to alter
the rating of any particular ships in commission, as had been done
in the case of the Cornwallis, the Wellesley, and the Melville—the
two latter being seventy-fours had been marked at 4th rates. He
thought it was dangerous to give the Admiralty the power of
aft:ring at their discretion the rating of any ship, thereby
reducing the complements, and reducing the salaries of the
officers. What was the rating of the Cornwallis ? She had got
now the same peace complement as the other seventy-fours, but had
been again altered from a fourth rate to a third rate. The Admi-
ralty thus exercised a capricious power that had never been at-
tempted to be exercised by any Board of Admiralty before.—(hear,
hear, from Admiral Adams.) True they were armed Cu flute for
transports, but that was a case especially provided for by an Order in
Council and the Admiralty had 110 authority in the matter. This e as
the first time that it had been attempted to give a sea-going ship a
differing rating—reducing a ship carrying an Admiral's flag—
reducing such a ship to a rating below its proper one. In such cases
the pay of petty officers was much reduced, and he doubted whether
they had not good grounds for an action. He had called the atten-
tion of the Committee to these subjects, because he thought the
power assumed by the Admiralty was liable to very great abuse.
The pay of no man in the service should be left to the caprice bf
any one Board in the country. He felt that he had troubled the
Committee at great length, but after the speech of the Hon. Gen-
tleman, lie felt that his duty compelled him to do so. He had en-
deavoured to show that the estimates for one year slid not give any
satisfactory showing of what they ought to be for another year.
He did not think that it was necessary to have ten sail of the line
, in the Mediterranean, if they cculd be better employed in the Chan-
nel. They could be as well disciplined in the ports and harbours,
and then the officers and men would have an opportunity of visiting
their families; and he could not but think that the Admiralty was
much to blame with respect to the distribution of Ito ships.
Admiral ADAM always rose to address tha House with
great reluctance. He was perfectly swore that he had
not the talents to follow the Honourable Baronet, who
was cue of the most practised debaters in the House. They
had been twitted because that the Secretary for the Admiralty
had had the duty imposed upon him of bringing forward the Navy
Estimates; but after the very luminous and eloquent speech of the
Hen. Gentleman, on Monday night, could any one doubt that it was
not better that he should be called upon in place of those who, by
their professional habits, were almost precluded from so well doing
their duty. Some of the statements of the lion. Baronet lie was
able to answer, not only to the satisfaction of his friends behind him,
but also to the satisfaction of the country at large.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Baronet began about foreign affairs, but it was not his
duty to answer those topics ; they would be answered by one much
more capable of doing so than him. He then went on to the
question of guard-ships in our ports, and as to the best means of de-
fending our own shores, by having always ready guard.ships in the
ports. Now, he thought it better to have half-manned guard-ships
than to have no ships at all. It could not be denied that these ships
did their duty well, though they were only armed en flute, and
though their complement was not complete. Had they been
so they could not have carried out troops abroad. When
it was necessary to send troops to our North American possessions,
then it was shown with what promptness and alacrity which did
every credit for both the officers and men who had to undertake
that duty in the midst of winter.—(Hear, hear.) The ships were
then better employed in his opinion than in lying in the ports in
harbours of Great Britain. He had yet to learn that it was better
to have ships half armed in the ports than to have them at sea
ready in a very short time to be sent to any part of the world.
With respect to leaving the shores of this country unprotected, he
denied the fact altogether—(Loud cheers)—and he could prove
that it was not so. Li the course of last summer three line-of-
battle ships—three ships earning Admirals' flags, armed in the
same manner as those guard ships which were so much vaunted by
the Hon. Baronet were in the ports ; their complements could be
made up, and they could be made fully efficient for any emergence
in a very short space of time; besides those three ships there were
constantly in tie Tagus, within a few days' sail of this country, two
or three ships of the line, constantly sailing backwards and forwards,
besides frigates always at command. There were the ships which
had been sent to America with troops—if they had been wanted
transports would have been taken up for that purpose. At the
same time there were in the St. Lawrence two line-of-battle ships
besides those carrying troops. When the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
J. Graham) was in the administration of the Navy ships called
demonstration ships, for what reason he did not know, were intro.
duced ; they were considered nearly ready for commission—that
is, they had their water tanks on board, their masts on board, they
were rigged, and in a short time they mis ht be made ready for sea.
In a short time it became necessary to commission some of those
ships ; the Hercules was one of them, and it was found that so far
from those ships being in a state of reparation in consequence of
being rigged, it was found to be the very reverse. He did not
mean to say that there was any negligence in the officers in not
reporting them to be in the state they were, but every body knew
when ships were properly examined, defects were discovered that had
not been brought to light before. The Hercules was obliged to be
completely unrigged, and by that means a great deal of time
was lost. In consequence of this having been the case
the other ships were looked into, and it was found that in many of
the other vessels the lower masts were likewise defec,ive; and,
therefore, it became necessary to unrig them also. The case, there-
fore, was this, that the Board of Admiralty, after having had the
minutest investigation, came to the resolution of removing all the
masts, the lower mash; and everything, and to put everything con-
nected with those ships into store. The effect of that was
that the lower masts and rigging were kept ready and under
cover to put on board "ship whenever required, as was every
port of the ships which were denominated demonstration
ships; he would therefore fearlessly maintain that the system
which had been adopted by the present Board of Admiralty was
much better than the system adopted by the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite. In making that statement ho did not intend to
blame the Right Honourable Baronet, because he believed the plan
he had adopted would have answered the purpose intended, had
the masts been new, but it must be remembered that the masts
had gone through a long war, they could not be thrown away, and
such being the case, the proper course was to store them
up. With respect to the deficiency of stores, his Hon. Friend be •
hind him had not blamed the Right Hon. Baronet for that deficiency,
because it arose from the circumstance be had stated, that the stores
had remained so long in the arsenals that they became deteriorated,
and it was found necessary to get rid of many of them. At the time
he (Admiral Adam) came to the Admiralty he found the st les its
that situation, and that gave rise to the necessity of providing further
stores, and it was therefore in 1836 that they began to supply the de-
ficiency, and not after the speech of the Duke of Wellington, as the
Hon. Bart. opposite had stated. That speech had had no effect what.
ever on the system which they had adopted, but it had had this
effect, that a pamphlet had been put forth by a Flag-Officer full
of wilful misstatements. With reference to the stores and
rigging, the system formerly was to attach the stores
to all the ships likely to be brought forward. When ships were
broke up sometimes the stares remained, but it was determined for
the future only to have applied to the particular ships the amount
that was required for the ships called demonstration ships, and the
general stores should be kept fur general purposes besides. With
respect to the ships of some of the flag officers, Sir Charles Paget
and others, the fact was that the predecessors of those officers had
their flags hoisted in the largest frigates. Stich was the case with
the Vernon and others, but there being so many 74-gun ships
it was thought right that the flags should be hoisted upon those yes-
sels, and they should be employed where the larger vessels had
hitherto been employed. The result was, that when one of the
larger frigates was put out of service, she was replaced by a 74.
The largest portion of the vessels used in the Baltic were 74-gun
ships. It was therefore considered better to employ some small
seventy-fours to hoist the flags on, instead of the larger frigates;
that gave larger accommodation to the Admirals. The Hon.
Baronet opposite had brought a heavy charge against the
department to which he belonged. He had said that they had con-
travened the King's Order in Council, in commissioning ships of
one rate for that of another. AI he could say with respect to that
was, that he thought the Hen. Baronet had overstrained the effect
of that order. The Hon. Baronet should recollect that the King's
Order in Council stated that the complement of a certain ship should

not exceed a certain number. The advantage of the 74-gun ships
was, that they carried heavier guns—that they were stronger ships—
that the only difference between the complement of those ships
was a sergeant's party of marines. The Hon. Baronet opposite heel
stated that the present. Board of Admiralty had been the first to ins
traduce the system of employing 74sgun ships. Now, unfortunately
flat the Hoti. Baronet, that system had been introduced by Lord De
Grey when he was at the Admiralty—(Cheers)—for Sir T. Halkitt
had told him himself that he had been permitted to go otit in a 71:
gun ship without her lower decle:guns,-( fleet, heat, hertr)—aild
he had particularly requested him that lie would propose to the
Botird tb aiOsw him to hoist his flag in a 74-gun ship, which would
not be more expense, because her 1, wer guns had been taken from
her.—(Great cheering.) This was what the Hon. Baronet oppo-
site had called half manning ships by the present Board of Admi-
raltv.—(Chee:s ) Ile thought Gentlemen should go a little
further back, and see what had taken place while they
were In office before they made such charges. Now as
to the allegation of the insufficiency of the force which had
been sent to Mexico, when the French first blockaded Vera Cruz ;
the moment the news of that blockade had arrived, orders were sent
from the Admiralty to pay particular attention to it, and Sir C. Paaet
was directed to sail to Vera Cruz with the Cornwallis, the Malabar,
and another, all seventy-fours, with three large frigates, and six or
eight corvettes and sloops. True they slid not arrive till
after the taking of the for; of St. Juan d'Ulloa.— ( Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) But it was not intended, this country
had no right, to prevent the French from taking that fort,
though certainly the delay was unintentional and was occa-
sioned by the unprecedentedly long passage of the ships
which carried out both the original and the duplicate despatches.
With regard to the Revenge, it would not be thoroughly r. paired
till April, and had been without a ma'nmast for a short trine,hut
the deficiency Was soon supplied from another vessel. He (Admiral
Adam) would now advert to a subject set jell he approached with
great reluctance—the reduced complements in peece. He could
not egree that the war complements should be retained in time of
peace ; for the full complements were much more than sufficient
for managing and manceuvring the ships. And he Ira ntained
that the point on which Captain Berkeley hail differed from his
co leagues seas, whether there should be any peace compEments
at all; on which the Gallant Captain was opposed by all the other
members of the Admiralty Board; and it seas not proper in a mem.
ber of that Board to publish a pamphlet to all the world upon a sub-
ject which he well knew was under the consideration of the Ad-
miralty at the time.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said it was many years since he had held all
office connected with Naval affairs, and during the inters-al he had
applied himself to other subjects. He could net say that he had
eared minutely to inquire into the measures which had been
adopted by his successors, and with respect to his own he was con-
tent to leave them to the unerring test of time and experience. In
all the chanaes which had been introduced by him into the naval
department of the administration, he had been assisted by officers of
the highest character, and he was sure that those who hail shared
the responsibility and the credit (if credit there was) would aid in
their defence. The speech of the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty
was marked by great ability—(Hear, hear)—but it was to be re-
gretted that he should have infused so much of a party tone into
the subject.—(Hear, hear.) And as to the Hon. and Gallant Officer
who had just sat down, it was not for him (Sir J. Grahaan) to twit
that Gallant Officer with inability for a hires.sing ;hat House, even if
there was any inability with which he could be taxed; seeing that his
character bad not been formed in that House for a debater, but hail
been acquired nit a far different scene—in a profession of which he
was universally allowed to he a brave and distinguished mee-ber, as
he was in private life regarded with respect and affection by all
who knew him.—(Hear, Fear.) But he could nut avoid expressing
his regret that the Gallant Admiral also had exhibited some portion
of the spirit of party in the manner in which he had debated this
question. The Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty, and the Gallant
Admiral also hail both complained of paragraphs on this subject,
which had appeared in the Tory Newspapers—why, really, after this,
he (Sir James Graham) might as well make a formal complaint
of the paragraphs which appeared on this subject in the Whig
Radical newspapers, in which papers paragraphs without number
had appeared, in which it had been made matter of congratulation
to the country that his (Sir James Graham's) connection with the
Admiralty had ceased, as his presence at the head of that Board
had been one of the great causes which had prevented the proper
efficiency of the Navy. lie would not be led away by such consider-
ations as these to adopt a line of discussion in relation to this ques-
tion, which should occasion it to turn upon mere party views, such
was not the manner in which this question should he discussed ; a
question affecting the effi:iency of the British Navy as a certain
means of defence, and the power of the British flag to sustain and
secure the national safety, and maintain and protect the national in.
terests.—(l-lear, hear) All other considerations were merely se-
conday when the question was view cc' in this manner. The clues.
tion as to whether the preceding Boards of Admiralty were in fault
ought not now to be made matter of such great importance. There
could be no doubt that in the management of affairs of such great
difficulty and such vast importance, faults had been committed by
all preceding boards. Ile (Sir J. Graham) did not claim for him.
self exemption from all blameon this subject, nor did be imaginethat
either the Hon. Gentleman opposite or those who had preceded
him (Sir J. Graham) in the administration of that Board, would be
inclined to claim such exemption. With regard to the letter
brother of the Hon. Gentleman opposite who had been his (Sir J.
Graham's) colleague at the Board of Admira'ty, he must say that
he did certainly very much regret that Captain Berkeley should
have been induced by the example of the Secretary to the
Admiralty—when he found that a difference of opinion existed on
the subject of the efficiency of the Navy, between himself and the
other members of the Board—he must say that he did regret that
Captain Berkeley should have been induced to appeal, by means of
a printed pamphlet, front their tribunal to the profession and the
pubic. He conceived this to have been an error in judg.
ment on the part of that Gallant Officer, and having done
this, he did lust see how he could have acted otherwise than he had
done, in ceasing to be an) 1 roger connected with that Board.
Blaring admitted thus much, he must confess that en every other
point he fully agreed in the opinions which had Leen expressed in
the letter of Captain Berkeley, with regard to the present inefficient
complements of the crews.—(llear, (tear.) NVith regard to the re_
duction of peace complements in 1834, he would say that he agreed
fully in the opinion expressed by Captain Berkeley on that subject,
that considering the increase which had taken place in the weight of
the yards and size of the masts of the larger frigates, that those
complements were too small—that, except in very smooth water
it was impossible for the watch alone to work the ship--that the
crew were consequently obliged frequently to turn out for this
purpose, which interfered great' y with the comfort of the men, and
diminished that superiority, which on this point the service of the
Navy possessed over the merchant service, in which the ships were
in general undermanned; and he believed that to this cause might
in a considerable degree be attributed the difficulty which existed
in inducing men voluntarily to enlist in the service. He
would not pursue this subject _further, as, from the observa.
lions of the Gallant Officer, in the postcript to his
letter, lie was induced to indulge a hope that the attention of the
Board of Admiralty having been drawn to this subject, the present
inefficient state of the lie ice complements would be remedied. He
regretted the publication of this letter on another account, in con-
sequence of it the services of Capt. Berkeley had been lost at the
Board of Admiralty. But if the retirement of Cape. Berkeley was
a subject of regret the restoration of Sir J. Pechell to that Board was
a matter for congratulation. The Hon. Gentleman opposite bad
spoken the other night of the more efficient system of naval gun.
nery which it had been his (Sir J. Graham's) good fortune to introduce.
The first suggestion he had received on that subject was from certain
documents which he found left on that subject by his predecessor
in office, Lord Melville. The entire system had been formed first
from the suggestions which he had received on this subject from
various officers in the Navy, and further from the information col_
lected from an admirable pamphlet on the subject of gunnery gene-
rally, which had been published by Sir Howard Douglas. He had
at that time thought it advisable to make a considerable reduction
in the Marine Artillery, he thought it a wiser plan to reduce this
force considerably, that to abolish it entirely, and he had accord-
ingly reduced the Marine Artillery from eight companies to two, so
that in the event of war, or of the probability of war,
the means should remain of recruiting and reinforcing that excellent
corps, if it should be deemed necessary. By this reduction of the
marine artillery he had been enabled to bring this improved system
of Naval gunnery to its present state without much additional ex-
pense to the public; but he should not have succeeded in doing this,had
it not been for the very valuable assistance he had received from Sir

John Fechell, who had devoted his undivided attention to this most
important subject.—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry the Hon. Gentle-
men opposite had been pleased to allude to the Naval administra-
tion of Earl de Grey. He thought that it was hardly fair, consider-
ing the very short time that Noble Earl had presided at that Board,
to make him or the administration with which he was connected re-
sponsible for the state orthe Navy, in 1836. For the state of Navy
from 1831,up to that period, he considered that he (Sir J. Graham),
who had been the predecessor of the Noble Earl, alone was responsi_
ble. He was prepared with documents, to defend himself from any
charges that might be brought against him respecting the state of
the stores—the abolition of the coast guard—the reduction of the
marine artillery—and the introduction of the system of naval gun-
nery,but he trusted he should not be obliged to read these documents,
as if he did, he thought he should send the Chairman to sleep, and
be considered by the Committee as the most tiresome of speakeis.
If the subject should be brought forward, he would be ready
to enter into these details, but he thought the subject had better
not be encumbered by their consideration. But he must say as an
act of justice to his predecessor, Lord Melville, that the state and
amount of the stores he had received from that Noble Lord was
most satisfactory. He was aware that it was highly improper
to state the present amount of stores—but he would state the amount
of stores that he had received from Lord Melville in 1830, and also
libertysit
a of sg
in
oh
e 8l
t 3.0, and
e
House with a detached statement of the stores left the amount that he (Sir James Graham) had left on quitting
office in 1833, as an act of iustice to himself and to Lord Mel-
stores was as a s satisfactory
take
the
tlht
Mel-
ville, and then perhaps the Hon. Secretary would state whether the
in
mofe w
theo
u;
d therefore
at the end of the Noble Lord's Administration and at the end of his
own; he would make the statement of amount under each head.
He had found of large timber on entering to office .56,633, he had
left 59,671 ; he had found of thick stuff and plank 8,313, he had
left 8,045 ; he had found 3,932 tons of hemp, he had left 7,221; he
had found 4,154 tons of yarn, he had left 4,188; he had found
3,500 tons of cables and cordage, he had len 3,038; he had found
33,600 bolts of canvas, he had left 30,060; he had found 2,569 an-
chors, he had left 2,441 ; he had found 725 chain cables, he had left
858 ; he had found 10,529 iron tanks, he had left 9,453 t he had
found lo lower masts for ships of the line, he had left
151 ; he had found 167 lower masts of frigates; he had
left 191 ; he had found 317 top mats, he had left 344.
He found spars for topmasts 895, and he left 995 ; he found spars
for lower yards 452, and he left 452. The House would see that
with a single exception of hemp the stores left by Lord Melville
were nearly the same as those left by him. With respect to the ar.
tide of hemp, the explanation was, that there had been a combina-

ion in the market to advance the price when the Administration of
lie Duke of Wellington went out of office, and there was an earnest
desire to break down the combination which had occasioned the re-
duction of the quantity of that article in store. The House would
do him the justice to remember that when he found no provision had
been made for engines for steamers of war he had come
dowh to that House with a special estimate, and having stated
the fact, he without difficulty obtained the necessary
grant. He had thought it necessary to state so much with respect to
the important article of stores, but that was only of secondary im.
portance to the state of the ships themselves. These were the ma.
terials try which ships might be maintained and repaired; but a
matter of higher importance was the state of the ships themselves,
with regard to their prompt preparation in a case of necessity. He
entirely agreed with the Hon. Gentleman opposite that the question
of the number of ships in commission was not an Admiralty but a
Cabinet question. That must vary from year to year according to
the state of their foreign relations, and the views of the Gsvernment
generally—of the probable want of a given force within a given
time—and the demonstration it might be necessary to make in any
part of the world by that country. It by no means followed that because
in 1835 the Hon. Gentleman found it necessary to ask for 15,000
instead of 17,000 men, it by no me..ns followed that he had acted
with imprudence. That vote had been asked with reference to the
then state of their foreign relations, and he thought, with a view of
giving breathing time to the country, the force asked should be the
smallest that might be deemed necessary.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought that no fanciful apprehensions—no fastidious or absurd
desire of making a demonstration of a large force in time of peace,
would justify any Ministry in coming down and asking for a single
man more than was necessary. He would illustrate that by his own
conduct, when acting In concert with some of his colleagues whom
he saw on the opposite side ofthe House. In 1831 he had comedown
with the full concurrence of these colleagues, and asked the House
oe
for an increase of 3,000 seamen and a thousand marines. He had
alludingthat
s
raised the number of seamen from 18,000 to 22,000, and the
number of marines from 9,000 to 10,000'
subject he was anxious to avoid any angry toil;ic,
butthe t
House
would recollect that in 1831-32 the Government carried on two
warlike Operations—one the Dutch blockade, and the other a war-
like demonstation on the coast of Portugal, the result of which
had placed her present Majesty on the the throne of that kingdom.
These operations having terminated before he left office he had
the satisfaction of moving a reduction of 4,000 seamen, and 1,000
marines. That was an illustration of the principle in his (Sir J.
Graham's) practice, while he was in office. The Hon. and
Gallant Officer had referred to the demonstration ships, and the
Hon,. Secretary of the Admiralty, who was a somewhat severe

critic, said that it was a very absurd name; he (Sir J. Graham)
was not there to defend that particular phrase, but to defead the
principle on which the practice had been framed. He contended
that In time of peace; With a fers ee limited by the stria principle
which had ken laid down, it was desirable that WhßtevEr peace
establishment they had should be available as possible, not in Eiiroile
alone, but throughout the whole of the seas surrounding the civilized
world wherever the colonies extended, due regard being had to the
safety of Melt own chores. He candidly confessed that Ise differed
with the floh; SeErerafY With Heard tb list Ott:Renee of the old
guard-ships: whether he looked at their disciplin-, the chaiddief iii
the men who volunteered into them, or the general state of their
order and equipment. he did not believe that they formed a reserve
upon which any firm reliance could be placid. He hoped the
House would pardon him if he read—and he would not do so if he
had not obtained the official sanction of the head of the Admiralty,
to whom he applied for an official copy of the document, with an
intimation that he would make a public use of it—he hoped the
House would allow him to read this document which he could do
without sty violation of what was due to official confidence.
It was a minute which he had left at the Board of Admiralty on the
day he had resigned office, and it did lay down more correctly the
exact reasons which had led him originally to recommend the for.
oration of these demonstration ships. The Right Hon. Baronet then
read the document, which stated, as Isis last act before leaving the
Board, he considered it his duty in the most earnsst manner to im-
press on his successor the paramount importance of keeping at all
times read) to receive men twelve sail of the line, and six large fri-
gates in addition to the ships in commission; when he said ready to
receive men lie meant with their standing rigging over the mast
heads, with their topmasts pointed, their lower yards crossed, all their
internal fittings complete, and their ground tier tanks on board. In
case of any sudden emergency it was impossible to calculate the advan-
tage ofsuch a reserve, he spokefrom experience, when he declaredthat
if reliance was placed on the ordinary to meet any sudden demand for
an increased armament, disappointment might es:sue, and national
danger might be the consequence. France, Russia, and all the
other naval powers kept constantly a large portion of their
fleets in a state of readiness, and when he compared the num-
ber of their ships with the reduced peace establishment of that
country in ships of war, and vessels in commission, most- of
which were scattered throughout the world for the protection of
their Colonies, he was convinced of the necessity of having a force
ready equipped in harbour at once to proceed to sea as soon as
men could be obtained. That force should be equally divided be-
tween Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the Nore, and that the Ad-
miral commanding should be held strictly responsible for their
constant state of efficiency. The rigging should be renewed from
time to time, and the masts and spars overhauled, the costs
of which would be insignificant compared to the national
advantage of having a force that would be available
without the risk of disappointment.—(flear.) To •sure the ships
being ready, he would recommend the drafting of men into them.
He had mentioned the raising of men as a necessary limit to the
dispatch In fitting them out, and he begged to observe that the
Coast Guard, as at present constituted, was to a certain extent a re.
serve of prime seamen. Whatever means might be adopted to re-
gulate the supply of men by means of registration or otherwise, it
should never be fergotten that the moment real danger threatened
the country, impressment alone was the only sure means of obtaining
a rapid supply of mess, and the surrender of that prerogative of the
Crown would be in his judgment the death blow of the naval supre-
macy of the country.—(Hear, hear.) These were the opinions be
had put on record, and there was one point in that document to
which he wished to refer, and that was with respect to the
Coast Guard. The former Coast Blockade Service was under
the Treasury, and not under the Admiralty—it was a Civil and not
a Naval force. The Noble Earl, under whom he had had the honour
of serving, surrendered the patronage of the Coast Guard of Great
Britain and Ireland, which he would undertake to say, for Parlia-
mentary purposes, was the most useful patronage a First Lord of
Treasury could enjoy. In was patrona generally sought after by
members for the maritime towns and counties, and patronage snore
useful no Administration could possess. The Noble Earl having
been satisfied by him that a Naval object would be obtained, slid not
hesitate at once to transfer that farce from the Treasury to the Ad-
miralty. He had imposed no condition but that he should have
security that it was not a job for civil purposes, but
that it would be applied exclusively to Naval purposes.
Ile very much appreciated the advantage of this argument. The
whole coast of Great Britain and Ireland was now surrounded by a
force under the direction of naval officers, and composed of picked
men, who had pensions, which were considered as retaining fees
from the Admiralty, and these men might be called on to leave the
Coast Guard and go into ships, under the threat that if they re-
fused their pensions would be withdrawn from them. This call
would on an emergency, he was sure, be quite sufficient, if
impressment were also resorted to. The Coast Block-de amounted
only to 2,700—n0w it was 5,000 odd hundred men. He (Sir J.
Graham) had the authority of a Gallant Officer, a near relative of
the Noble Lord opposite—a eentleman for whom he had the highest
esteem, whether he regarded him as a naval or a civil officer,
Captain Bowles—(Hear, hear)—that the saving in money
effected for the country by the change of the Coast Guard into
the Coast Blockade was 50,000/. to 60,000/. a year in direct caleula-
tion—but that in a fiscal sense the benefit would be incalculable; for
smuggling was not suppressed until the Coast Blockade was insti-
tuted. The revenue through their protection was now safe. He was
glad to hear that her Majesty's Government had appointed a com-
mission to ascertain the question at how much less cost the Coast
Guard could be maintained, but he trusted the Government
would think twice and act deliberately before it should
determine to put down the Coast Blockade and renew
the Cost Guard. He must also state frankly that he had
apprehensions concerning a departure from the rule about demon-
stration ships when in port, in which, instead of having the pre.
parations actually made on board by a regulation of the Admiralty,
in 1836 a system of preparation on shore was substituted. Now
he had consulted Sir Thomas Hardy on this point. He had acted
with that distinguished officer; and, with the late Admiral Dundas,
a dear departed friend, whose connection with him he always re-
membere I with the most hearty gratification—whose loss he
should ever contemplate with sorrow, and whose merits
he should always recur to as one of the most up.
right, leanest, and sliinterested public servants that ever
entered the service of his Majesty.—(Hear, hear.) Having acted
with both those distinguished officers in the regulations he referred
to, he asked Sir Thomas Hardy whether it would be judicious to
deport from the rule he approved of.. His (Sir T. Hardy's, answer
was, "That nost certainly, in Isis opinion, and that sif the late Admi-
ral Dundas, viewing the necessity of a standing naval armament at
home, they thought it would be of advantage to have four ships of
the line and a proportionate number of frigates in each of the
harbours of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the Medway, in such a
state of readiness as would enable them to be got ready for active
service in the least possible time. The degrees which they would
have the ships prepared in were the lower rigging over
the masts, the lower masts, the two top mash, the tanks
filled, and the boats and spars on board. Experience
however proved that when slips had been so prepared for sev erall
years, the rigging became so deteriorated that refitting was necessary,
and the stores in the holds so damaged as to require renewing.
Therefore, he (Sir T. Hardy) thought that if the hulks were kept
quite ready the masts and rigging might be kept fit for instant use in
the yards, marked for certain ships.—(Hear, hear.) There would
be more saved than lost by this arrangement—more good than harm
would be done by it." He (Sir J. Graham) was once of a different
opinion, but he at once yielded up his opinion to this most respec-
table authority, and as there was so much natural aoxiety on this
subject, he had thought it his duty to read the letter.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) Sir T. Hardy thought, and he agreed with him, that it would
be a great advantage if everything was kept in readiness to be put on
board and fitted to the ships. Having discovered before he left the
Admiralty, that great deterioration had pervaded the lower masts
in consequence of long exposure to the weather, he ordered mast
houses to be built in the dock-yards, and shears to be raised on the
wharfs for taking out and putting in the masts, and also railways to
be laid down between the shears and the mast houses, that no (line
in fitting out should be lost. He had no doubt that those orders had
been executed. These precautions would, if acted upon, save lower
masts as well as important spars and stores from being rotted in
future. In passing now he must make a remark, though not in
anger or at all in hostility, on one important point. Suppose it
were desirable to get ready an armament with all possible dispatch
in the spring or summer. He would remind them that the first
men who went on board ships when put into commission were the
Marines. Now far 12 ships.of-the line and six frigates there would be
required 2,500 Marines. But at present we could not lay our handson
them, for 1,100 or 1,290 of the Marines were in Spain, that place in
which the battles with windmills were formerly fought—(Laughter)
—and in which the Noble Lord would persevere in interfering.
Now we could only commission six ships of the line and six frigates
—if we recalled the Marines in Spain we could commission twelve
sail of the line and six frigates. The force now in Spain made the
difference between the power of the Government to commission or
not to commission the large •r the small fleet.—(Hear.) He thought
that the experiment of the Noble Lord had entirely failed, and that
being the fact he trusted he would admit that the peace and security
of the country would be much increased if the Marines in Spain
were called home and placed at once on board ship ready for corn.
mission.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he would come back to a subject of
primary importance, that was, the expense. He perceived that the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny was awake now that he came to that
part.—(Laughter.) if he (Sir J. Graham) had any fault to find
with the Estimate, it was that It was deficient. There should be a
larger expenditure, and that expenditure should be permanently
kept up. This was indispensably necessary.—( Hear, hear.) Here
he wished to carry the Committee along with him. So far from
speaking in a hostile feeling against the Government, he was per.
suaded that whatever Administration was in power it must admit,
what he now contended for, that a larger force was necessary, if
the permanent safety of the country was to be regarded of a
paramount importance.—(Cries of " Hear.") He had often
before had a battle with the Hon. Member for Kilkenny,
on this point, he had often stated to him, that ships like men were
perishable--that both had their terms of natural life—and that an
annual supply of new ships would be necessary to replace those which
would successively decay. To prove the necessity of increase on
our part, he would refer to a comparative naval table, published by
Sir J. Barrow, showing the maritime force of Great Britain, Russia.
France, and the United States. When he (Sir J. Graham) addressed
the House, five years ago, on this question, he would remind them
he stated that the naval force of Great Britain was then weaker than
any year since the revolution. Sir J. Barrow's table showed that now
England had 21 sail of the line, France 10, Russia 40, and America 2.
We had throughout the world 21 sail of the line in commission, end
these three powers had 52 sail. Of 50 gun frigates and upwards,
we had only 2, while France had 10, Russia 4, and America 6.
England had 57 sail of the line in ordinary, France 12, Russia 3,
and America 5-e-so that we had 57 sail in ordinary to their 18.
Of frigates in ordinary, of 50 guns and upwards, England had 17,
France 15, and America 9. While we had only two frigates of 50
gu•.s in commission to their 20, we had in ordinary 17 to their 24.
He now came to building. How many sail of the line had England
building? England had 12, France 29, Russia 7, and America, ac.
cording to Sir J. Barrow, 26. The Secretary to the Admiralty, in
this House, demurred to the statement of the Secretary to the
Admiralty out of doors.—( Laughter.) The Hon. Gentlemen in the
House said there was a smaller number, but he would rather take
the statement of the Secretary out of doors, The Hon. Secretary
in the House, said that America had not actually 26 sail of the line
on the stocks, but that frames for that number had been contracted
for to be delivered in 1841. If the frames were to be delivered in
1841, America would be able to complete her 26 sal of the line;
but he much doubted whether as much could be said of our 12 sail.
Takc the building and ordinary together. which was the fair way,
England had only 67 sail of the line, France 39, Russia 10, and
America would have 31 at the end of the year 1841. England had
in ordinary 19, France 32, and America 27; that was, we had
19 frigates only to 59 of those of other powers. Then the steamers
of war were still more formidable; England had 9, France 22, Russia,
8, and America 1. That was, we had 9 steamers of war in corn.
mission to their 31 ; of steamers in ordinary England had 7,
France had 15 building, and America 9. This was a statement
deserving the most serious consideration of the House.—(Cheers.)
He had given credit for 56 sail of the being sound shies, hut several
of them were not. The Gallant Admiral did not like to make
such an admission, but he would drive him to it. Every Gentle.
man knew that the declining value of life was tested by the lapse of
time, and so it was with ships. At Lloyd's ships were
divided into three classes, A, B, and C, always depending
on the age and repair of the ships. He wished the
Gallant Admiral would make some inquiry on this pull of the case,
and Ise did not think that he would then rest so easily.—(Hear,
hear.) He was satisfied of this, that while he (Sir J. Graham) was
at the Admiralty, he launched seven new ships in four years—seven
sail of the line. In 1831, there were launched the Calcutta 84, and
the Thunderer 84 ; in 1839, the Neptune 120, and the Monarch 84 ;
in 1833, the Royal William 120, the Waterloo 120, and the Rod-
ney 92, and he left on the stocks others ready for launching. He
laid down eight sail of the line, viz., three first rates, three second
rates, and two third rates. Now lie did not take any merit for this
—not the slightest. The larger portion were transmitted to him
by Lord Melville, in an advanced state of preparation for launching.
He only adhered to the system of annually launching a given num.
ber of. ships and ordering an equal number to be in progress. Unless
that practice was resumed, our line of battle ships would dwindle
to nothing; year by year it would become weaker, until at last
either an immense and most expensive effort would be required to
restore it, or national disappointment would ensue, and national
degradation would be the inevitable consequence.—(Cheers.) He
would now come to the point of expense. The plan which he
adopted, in concert with Sir Thomas Hardy and Admiral Dundas
was, that three sail of the line and three new frigates should be

launched every year. Lord Aueithind 2d6ptCcl the same view; and
with his late Majesty it was an object of constan( idcjulrgf bolt many
ships were launching, and how many were repairing. In !fiat mope
it would be 14 years before they renewed the line of battle ship 4;
left than that would not suffice; and he was satisfied that some such

arrailiettiCitt al that thdtlitt be flAtitted year by year. This, how-
ever, had been alogetheEdiebdtifirit:ed by the pteSent Admiralty.—
(Hear, hear.) This, perhaps, might hafd arisen iti Sortie fEgpceta
Irom the increased supply of superior sailing vessels, the additional
ships in commission, and the packet service. The al:Bet:plena, licid
beeti that BIC rrorkmen had been withdrawn from the line of battle
ships. The Hon. fieift. Hatt talti thA he (Sir J. Graham) reduced
the dock-yards too low. He adopted the !cafe Oked Upon by Sir
Gco. Cockburn and Lord Melville, namely 6,000 Wdrilifitlti. What
would be the cost of rectifying the remissness which had fallen
place? It would take 120 shipwrights a year to build a ship of the
line; and If 500 shipwrights were added to the dock-yards, the cost
at live shillings per day would be 1,2501. a week, or 65,0001. a
year, and the expense of materials added to this would make the
total 130,0001. This was the whole matter in dispute. Between
complete preparation and the absence of preparation—between safety
and danger, the sum was only 130,000/. H., believed that the
whole matter in dispute might be brought to this narrow point.
This subject ought nit to be made a matter of erimination or're-
crimination, or the subject of attack upon a Tory or a Whig Ad.
ministration, but they ought to endeavour to put themselves
right in the presence of the wood, and show that a reform
Parliament was niggardly in expenses that were really necessary.
If on calm reasoning it could be shown, as he was afraid he had too
much to the trouble of the ['ewe endeavOured to how, that this sum
was necessary, though the Hon Member for Kilk tiny might not
a,ree with him—(laug'l)—he believed the great m j wily of the
House would throw aude all considerations of patty, and
support the Government in demanding this extra sum of money,
nnly 193,600/. a year upon the understanding that regularly, year
by year, three line of hate °old and an equal
number of other vessels,—(Cheers.) NVhile in office he ha-1 in lea
voured to save the public money to the best of nis powur.
He had seen, with shame and sorrow, certain expressions said

to have been used at a public meeting at Birmingham. He believed
they were not used by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Attwood, but
at a public meeting there. Mr. Burke had been denounced as a
political scoundrel. lie (Sir J. Graham) thought sir. Burke was
the first of political philosophers, and the greatest guide in all mat-
ters of political reform.—( Hear, hear) He well recollected (although
he could not quote the precise words) Mr. Burke had said that eco.
nomy in naval matters was the most dangerous of all, for it was a

bastard economy, not deserving the name, which brought after it a
long train of fatal consequences, and it might inflict irreparable in-
jury ; and he said further, that the estimate of the year was never in
naval matters a real standard of necessary expense. He (Sir J. G.)
begged the House to consider these principles, lie had endeavoured
dispassionately to force them upon the attention of Hon. Members ;
he had abstained from indulging in any petty or personal attacks,
and his greatest reward would be if by that abstinence he should have
persuaded the Committee to agree with him on the motion, which
he conscientiously and sincerely believed to be of primary national
importance.—(Cheers.)
Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON rose under a great disad
vantage after the Right Hon. Baronet, but he hoped the House
would allow him to make a few observations. He agreed with the
Right Hon. Baronet in the principles he had laid down with respect
to demonstration ships. Whatever might be the strength of the
fleet in commission, it became the country to have a certain num-
ber of ships ready in case of emer“eney. Without that adaitional
naval force, in no period of history had we been able to carry our

intentions into execution. There ought to be ships always ready
to be brought forward at a moment's notice. The only difference
of opinion was, as to whether this should be brought forward that
way, or in another. It had been found that those demon-
stration ships were not in a state of readiness as they would
have been if the stores had been prepared in the
dock-yard. He had known many instances where ships had been
supposed to be ready, where the rigging had been supposed to be in
good order, but when they came to be examined it was found the
rigging would, not bear the strain of sea.service, and in short it was
found there was more to undo than there was to do.—(Hear, hear.)
It might be easy to get stores upon an emergency, but it was not so
easy to get men. The obtaining of stores was of secondary impor-
tance. He knew it took a great deal of time to make a real
seaman.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the House did not
seem to be aware of the real value of good seamen. There Na,
no class of men under the sun who were worse treated than
British seamen.—(Cheers) Seamen were not paid at their value,
and this led into a point that had been Eently touched upon, viz.,
the subject of impressment. He was ready to admit the right of
impressment, but then when they had done with them they ought to
give them the best method they could. When an increase
in the Army was wanted, they coaxed and wheedled a man, and
induced him to beco:ne a volunteer ; but how aid they act with re-
spect to the Navy ? Why if they saw a man was worth his
weight in gold they stole him. He knew he had been reproached
by many naval officers for giving an opinion against impressment,
but he did not deny the propriety of the practice when it was abso.
lutely necessary. At one time a ship he comnr.nded was paid off,
and he was waited upon by one of the best men he had had under
his command. The man asked him if it was true that he was going
to retie for a time, and being answered in the affirmative, he said
he did not want to be made a warrant officer—he wanted him (Sir
E. C.) to procure his discharge, because his father, a waterman
in London, was 80 yeats of age, and his mother 78, and he wanted
to procure his discharge, in order that he might work a,
a waterman, and that he might be enabled to do something for
them. That man was a pressed man—he never received the bounty
—lie preserved to himself the right to desert—(Oh)—he received no
bounty—he refused it, but he went further, and said he was ready
to pay 80 guineas for twa substitutes. He had that excuse for de.
serting, but he did not; he served under him for nine years with a
good character, and had served as long before with a good charac-
ter; and yet he had no encouragement to remain in the Navy. That
was not proper encouragement for such an important service
He spoke or only the case of one man, with which he was welt
acquainted ; there might be hundreds more. He objected to impress-
ment as the natural mode of filling up the ranks in the Navy. Was
it right that a man who was impressed should be liable to all
the caprices of any officer who might choose to act the
part of a despot ? His opinion was that if the country was unfor-
tunately obliged to go to war, she was also bound to go to the ex-
pense of getting and keeping goad men.—(Cheers.) He had not
had a very short experience on board ship, and the result of that
experience was, that he would much rather go to sea with a good,
well-disciplined, and contented ship's complement in not so good a
ship, as go to sea in one of these fine ships only half manned, and
with those discontented. He spoke only in his character of an
officer in the service, and one who had seen some little service, and
not from any party feeling.—(Hear, hear.) The men serving in
the Navy were not party men—they served without any
party feeling the moment they got afloat they had
only an nottioty to do their duty—he had searooly cvct
seen an instance in which an otlicer had carried party
feelings into the naval service. There certainly had been a party
attack, and therefore he had not interrupted the Right Ho?iille agrounees.t
(Sir J. Graham) in what he considered a party speech.
Lion was not a party one, and ought not to be discussed upon such
grounds. He was old enough to remember three armaments—the
Dutch, the Spanish, and the Russian armaments, when thirty-six
sail-of.line were moored at Spithead in a very short time. He fully
believed that the best means of preventing a war was the exhibition
of a Strong naval force.—(Cheers.) There was a want, in his opi.
nion, upon the part of every Administration he had ever seen with

respect to the Navy. The pensions of the men had been most igno-
rantly twered with and reduced. One instance he a; ould mention
to the House, in order to show that there was great injustice done
to the Navy. When he arrived from the Mediterranean he went to
the Admiralty and represented the case of a man who had received 8
wounds, one of them a very bad one, being caused by splinters, from
which he lost the use of one eye. The Admiralty asked what had be.
come of the man. He answered that he had been made a signal.
man, and made to use the other eye. Oh, then, said the Admi-
ralty, they could do nothing for him, as he was not disabled—.
his case did not, therefore, come under their consideration. The
man was again in action, and the other eye damaged. He (Sir
E. Codrington) represented his case to the Commissioners, and the

man had been allotted 6d. a day. When he made the report his
word was doubtod; for, said they, such things are not done in
the Army. " No," said he, " that was what ha complained

of—it was always so in the Navy.''—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He wrote to a surgeon on the subject, who in answer stated that the
man's eye was uninjured until a musket ball had passed over it,
which had caused cataract. Why, he would ask, should doubt
have been thrown upon *atter of that sort? Because, supposing
cataract had not come from the wound, there was a man who had

done his duty in battle, who had been cut to pieces and disabled

from providing for himself, with the paltry pittance of 6d. a.day.
Was that, he would ask, any encouragement for a man to join the
Navy?—(Hear, hear.) He would now mention a case, which he
trusted would be put to rights by the present Commissioners ; he
believed it was the wish of the Government to do all they could for
the good of the Navy. He would mention the case of a man being
wounded—a Midshipman ;if he was wounded and granted a pen.
sion, upon promotion he lost that pension.—(Hear, hear.) These
things wanted alteration. He had no doubt the Admiralty
had a desire to look into the matter that had been con plained of, but
then they should look into them properly. They should come for-
ward holdly to the House, and say that they had a demand which
the House must grant. Talk of economy—economy was not to be
considered where justice was on the way.—(Hear.) The reason
the Navy of England was in the state it was at present was because
a superior class of men were not encouraged. He could not close
the observations he had made without referring to another branch of
the service—the artillery. Great injustice had been done to them.
Whenever a man entered into that yard, whatever value he was of
at that time onght to be kept up; but what was the case ? Why,
when a man went into the Dock-yard, instead of carrying his servi-
tude with him, he was only considered entitled to a pension for
the service he had performed there. Why he would ask was not
his previous services to be taken into consideration ? When a man
had served twenty-one years he was entitled to a pension, and why
was not that to be taken into consideration when he went into the
Dock.yard ? That was what he complained of, he did not complain
of people having too much, but he did complain of those who had
served their country not being put upon the same footing as those
who did not go through half the danger. Many of these things
being heavy upon his mind, there was one case that was before him
of a distinguished officer who had been sent out on a survey, Cap.
tain Fitzroy ; that Gallant individual had found himself totally
unable to accomplish the object he was sent upon without an
expenditure from his own small property of nearly 7,0001. ; did it
not, therefore, become the country to pay him for what he had done.

If he had spent the money improperly, give him only one half_
of it back—if he had spent it properly, let him have the whole.

He had been in' Parliament now for near seven years, and it was
painful for him to think during that time how little attention had
been paid to the Naval Service. Let Parliament take the subject
seriously into consideration at once, and do not let them wait till

young officers wrote pamphlets calling their attention to the subject.
He knew that these things were not agreeable to men in office. He
cared not for Whig or Tory when he was speaking of the Navy, be-
cause he looked upon the Navy as the brightest jewel in the Crown
of their little—(Laughter)—he meant their young Qoeen—
(Cl,eors)—and he felt convinced that there was not a seaman in the
country who was not ready to give up his life in protecting that little
jewel. He hoped the House would look with great strictness into
the present estimates, in order to effect the better condition of the
Navy.—(Hear, hear.) He could not conclude without men.

tioning to the House a circumstance that took place between the
Emperor of Russia and a naval offieer of this country. On one
occasion, when the Emperor and the officer were together, the top-
sail of a ship, one of the most difficult feats of a seaman, was
shifted in fifteen minutes. He doubted very much whether that
could be done now, considering the state of the Navy at the present
time. The great difficulty was in procuring real skilful seamen, and
good experiencd workmen in the Dock-yards—both which points
were under the present system rendered very difficult of attain-
ment, by the bad encouragement which was held out to sailors and
to workmen.

Lord ASHLEY wished to explain a few points which had been
erroneously stated by the lion. Secretary for the Admiralty when
he (Lord A.) had brought forward the Naval Estimates in 1835,
with a reduction of 232,0001. He did not take credit for that re.
duction, but expressly ascribed it to the preceding Government. The
estimates were diminished by 2,000 men, for whom, however,
1,000 boys were substituted. The reason of that reduction,
equivalent to a diminution (in a money point of view) of 1,500
men, as the wages of 500 men would pay 1,000 boys, was that
ships had been ordered home, with 2,000 men, to be paid off by the
preceding Government. Three-fourths of the estimates had been
found prepared by the preceding Goverment. In 1834 the esti-
mates amounted to 499,1901., and in 1835 to 421,9584, which cer-
tainly exhibited a reduction. Why was this? He must explain
to the House that by an order of the Admira:ty a certain amount of
stores was denominated the establishment, a certain other amount
was denominated the• full establishment, and then there was the
special establishment under each head. Now in the year 1834
the sum wanted to complete the full establishment was 583,6661.,
the sum voted was 499,190/., being 133,2701. less than was re.
quired for the full establishment. Now at the time he (Lord Ash-
ley) was Secretary to the Admiralty the sum wanted to make up the
full establishment amounted to 428,5501., and the vote taken for
stores amounted to 333,1301.; so that the difference then existing
between the amount voted and the amount required to complete
the full establishment of stores, amounted only to 65,420/. It was
therefore evident that they had bettered the condition of the stores

by 67,850/. He would now show to the House in what Partei`ular
articles of stores this increase had taken place. In timber thee:
had been an increase of 8 per cent. ; in cordage there had be 11
bicrease of 53 per cent. ; the supply of hemp was fully equlaG%
in spars it amounted to 133 per cent. Now there had taker' f
in five years a deereafse in timber from 421)er cent. to 17 Per cr9t'S
in cordage from 34 per rent. to 28 per cent. ; sP'7'
0
from 12 per cent. to 4 per cent. ; in canvas from 61 per cent ,
the
f.,0 par cent. He would likew'se state ii) addition, Oat 'n
had left a large supply of ready made sails ; the estimates had h!
.
presesited to them by the heads of the different departments, t 0 reeir
cisely the etate in Which they would have been presented to
predecessors, had they remained in office, and the only anti,
ration they had made in them was to increase the
,1.
mate for steam engines for steam vessels, from 0P.%
0
to ilo,oooh The Honourable Gentleman had imagined that thee
supply of dddi had been less at that period, but the fact w, he
supply was 20,000 torte, exactly the same as had been asked by
tire
supply was 20,000 tolial, c%actiy the same as had been ask
amount
Hon. Gentleman in the succeeding year, the difference in ai11.0.7,0
being that in the one 15s. sd. per ton had been paid for coal,ct:y
in the other had been purchased for 15s. per ton. It vas per./e.
clear, therefore, that no charge of unnecessary reduction cont°,oo,
brought against them, because they had adopted, without redo,"
the estimates intended foe' their predecessors
which had
Mr. F. A. BERKELEY rose to reply to an expression win
fallen from one of the Lords of the Admiralty,
that CP
Berkeley had forgotten what was due to himself, when-ho Pub2es te'
ter
his letter; riots he thought that Captain Berkeley had never
recollected what wait due both to himself and to the service, "'lie
he had done when he had pursued the course complained of. the
had tell it his duty, in justice to his mother, to enter into
tatement he had made the other night on this subject, and alth°,tio
he perfe Cy a
.;r.,ect in eve y .tatement made by his brother re.
to this sueject, he would not oppose this vt.te, but would tait_e_e.
arol
as
opportunity of plating on the beoks of the House a notice of
Lion that there should be a standing complemeet
for
manning the Navy. • he
be
Admiral ADAM explained, and expressed the high opio
eutertaiiieu Captain iterke,ey as an °nicer and a man* esto
Lord INGESTBE would not detain the House long at t',"„tte
hour, taut he could not but regret the party tone which this ":_4
sion had assumed, the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, the sec I
to the Admiralty, was from beginning to end an antithesis eff 'tee
and Whig. He thought that the coasideration of the state of to
Navy was a subject of national interest, which "1"0.,
be discusied independently of any thing like party considers
don
of crews
tie did not mean to quarrel with any particular adnlini_trfoood
with respect to the Navy, although to a certain degree I'', City's
fault with them all. He certainly quarrelled with her llft,stl.
economist and cheese-parer General, the Hon. Member for ;4
kenny —( A laugh.) The Hon. Secretary of the Admiralty bet
stated that they had more ships in commission than fortrlerlY't to
he had forgot to add what their position was with resPecoil
foreign nations, that they had a colony in a state of revolt,t.
that France and Russia had increased their naval force. 11,:eo
at the returns, it appeared to him that while the number o' 001
voted had increased, the number at home had decreased. lie W;r of
mention a few years' illustration of that. In 1823. the numbo
seamen and marines voted was 25,000, and the number of teeetee
home was 9,500. In 1528 the number of seamen and nestieees
spay
was 30,000. In 1833 the number voted was 29,000, and tee, was
ber of men at home was 9,639. In 1834 the number voted to
27,000, and the number at home was 2,564. In 1835 the nttros6
voted was 25,500, arid the number at home was 0,539. I°4" 6/•
the number voted was 32,700 and the number at -home was ;Ze
Last year the number voted was 33,000, and the number an,- trd
was 5,254. The year 1792 had been referred to, and it app e 1
that that year the number of men voted was 14,000, whi`edietese
had 11 guardships ready to proceed to sea. In 1838 the 'lie
of men voted was 31,500, and they had only three 1111'1.-tioli
and one about to be launched. With respect to the diet',-eist
of the 21 ships of the line in commission, it apPeer`; the
there were three on the home station, ten sail of the
the
'ine in the Mediterranean, one at Lisbon, tie° O-csdit,
West India station, two at the East Indies and„Yob',
and three disposable. What then became of their nine dial' -e„lesb
ships ? He would like to know where they were when the ''''erf
flag had been insulted at Vera Cruz in so unwarrantable a Of the
—(Hear, hear.) The sooner that subject was inquired `Niters'
better for the dignity and the character of the country. ing
sped to the manning of ships he thought that every shiPlo",ste
sea should be ready for action the next moment, with all her Dais
properly and efficiently manned. He bad commanded 3 ja-sett
frigate two years ago, which vessels were considere-I the 160
manned ships in her Majesty's service. The complement we' toe
men, and if they were all seamen it would do very well, hut 'to
were such a number of midshipmen and schoolmasters, sod 'tee
ineffective men on board that they had only thirty-five or th'
Ije
six men for a watch in a ship of 600 tons burden'ereiss
would now refer to some of the grievances of the soest
Those of the men had been to a certain decreased ; but with re
to petty offrcers serving in small ships it was a matter of genell'oe
plaint that they were receiving less pay than officers of the ere
rank in large vessels although the duty was much more
In other services Captains were allowed cabin furniture, statiotlt;,
and table money—all of which placed them in a better situatie'oeso
our Captains Now he would make a brief comparison he!etoe ,
Captains of 7 years' standing, and Commanders of frigates of 24 me I
in the French, American and British services. A French tee
fain of seven years' standing had for permanent pay 2401. a ye3:;tioV
table-money on the home station 14 a day—abroad 11. 10s. Fliseecs,'
income was 687/. :._year abroad, at home, 6054 An M"
;I-1,1,1
Captain had 730/ a-year—half pay, 5001. An English C111,4',:0 the
390/.—half-pay, 1501. A Captain of a French frigate, We' I,oe,
Commander in the service, had for pay 1701. a-year ; for "r At
money at home, 16s. a-day—abroad, '24s. total, 462/. 1-16,es,
home—abroad, 5804 An American Commander had 5004 s'y'or
—half-pay, 3801. An English Commander had 3001. ',l,fre
half.pay, 155/. There was, the same proportionate too,
rence between the states of lieutenant and midshly
In other services the midshipmen had very o'loo
and a decent aliowance for half-pay. The half-pay of an
midshipman was about three farthings a day, paid quarter'''. A
the foreign services the other ranks had double as much as rs'is
captain in our service could not, if he were a man of family,
sea on receiving an appointment without considerable expellee' „el
respect to the dock.yards, he had lately had an opportunity ofsae,
that the men were almost entirely employed in keePi" hr
going, and there was no strength in the ships in ordinary Or rie",. .0
routine of the Dock-yard. If an increased force were cancel.; ,t
should find ourselvei most inconveniently situated here. I" girl
cases the workmen in the Dock-yards were not ~,,nre•
treated. They ought to have a superannuation eil°Thof
—(Hear, hear.) They felt too greatly annoyed at the 0/
in which they were classed. Men of alrrost equal lege'
and merit we' e made to work against each other at different "os'
Referring to naval architecture, he would ask the Gallant Adn es
opposite whether the Admiralty had not shown too much of aOOl
ti..n .pmt in this department. Had not they expended 1,500'°".00
on Captain Symmonds' ships, and that merely in the hulls offs
t"
ships, although it was notorious that Captain Symmonds' mod bad
notAd succeeded at all.
miral ADAMS—On the contrary they are the finest 6jb
Qt
that ever floated. oe
Lord INGESTRE—Did not the Gorgon steam frigate 0%,
badly that her lower deck ports had all to be taken in ? The
men were also exposed to great privations. In the article 01 'ere
they were overcharged 191. per cent., and for tobacco WY ;sid
charged Is. 7d. per lb., while the Government bad 01,1100
for the same more than 6d. He would ask the
Admiral also why were not the returns respecting nave, -
Lecture, which he moved for in June last, produced as yet r err
Admiral ADA MS said they had to send abroad for some oral to
turns. They had not procured all the information they desired:o6
what they promised should be laid on the table to-morrow night" Ile
Noble Lord was completely mistaken respecting the Gorgohj• bee
had received a report from Lord John Flay, who commandeueetot
which assured him, after giving a variety of most inter'-ogre
details, that the Gorgon surpassed r,ny other man.of-war I°4o
Capt. GORDON moved that the House report progress and ow
leave to sit again.
Mr. WOOD desireo have the vte pass w. be flit'
Captain GORDON— d tlf the vote no
is
taken now it can onlY
cussed after by items. t j
Mr. HUME here observed that he had been called a skin--"" had
a cheese-paring individual. Now all he had to say was that hdef'
rather be called a " skinflint" than a " skin back," he t'
stood several Gallant Captains were called.--(Laughte:.) el 1°
The House then resumed, and the Committee obtained le°
sit again.
The Transfer of Aids' Bill was reported. e o'4
Mr. R. STEUART moved that a Select Committee be eFV. eelc
to consider and report to the House what steps it may be ay
to take with respect to the present state of the Caledonian Co ,( the
After a few remarks from Mr. MIME, the Cuarscettoa
EICEIIEQUER, and Sir R. PEEL, the motion was agreed to. „meet
The following Committee was then appointed :—lNfr. er gar
Steuart, Mr. F. W. Grant, Mr. Hastie, Mr. Hope Johnel°"Voe'
George Clerk, Mr. Chalmers, Lord Viscount Sandon, „eel°
burton, Mr. Philip Miles, Mr. W. 0. Stanley, Mr. Ai",l Tf
Thompson, Mr. Dennistoun, Mr. Dunbar, Mr. Hutton, an
Williams
Mr. MARK(Coventry.) PHILLIPS moved for Returns of the Cel:ce
Inquests held on the bodies of persons killed during the °cies of
years in the coal pits, lead and other mines, of the coun'yori"
Northumberland, Cumberland, Westmoreland, Durban:4 sea
Lancaster, Derby, and Stafford; distinguishing the age An
of the persons killed, and the verdicts returned.—Ordered.
The House adjourned at. One o'clock.

SILVER TEA AND COFFEE SER,-i
ery ,t•
Cottage Pattern. Melon Pattern. King's pat 0
Tea Pot ...£lO 15 0 £ll 5 0 .£l2 u 0
Sugar Basin 6 0 0 ...... ... 6 6 0.
Milk Ewer . 4 0 0.
0
Coffee Pot .. 13 13 0 l3 13 0........ le v

The same strongly Plate* with Silver Edges. 0
Tea Pot .... 2 10 0 2 18 0 8 10 0
Sugar Basin 2 4 0 ... 2 8 0 2 14, 0
Milk F.wer . 1 16 0........ 2 0 0 2 'w 0
Coffee Pot .. 218 0......... 3 0 0 S 19, ats
The ground floor, also the first, second, and third d01.„',0 •
fitted up as Show Rooms. Selections may be mad* ","oes
most extensive variety of both Silver and Plated Manuf&T'A 0
A Pamphlet with a detailed list of prices and dravvirnaleett
various articles, and also with drawings of the above !!, solv
may be had gratis, or will be sent in answer to post-pall
cation. iftitb'
T. COX SAVORY, Working Goldsmith, Silver..fro°
and Watchmaker, 47, Cornhill, London (Seven PO'
Gracechureh-street.)
...

MONTHLY MILITARY OBITUARY.

General Farmar, late R. Mar. Leamington.

Lieut.-General R. Earl of Carnwath, London.
Colonel the Hen. J. Maitland, C. 8., 32 F., Canada-
Majors—Lang, 13 Dr., East Indies ; APCrumroiri,
Chat ham. o 7 i•t
Captains—Atkinson, 13 Dr., East Indies ; Manly, oar.;
sea; Vicar, R. Eng., Alullingar ; O'Neill, late of 11.tt~ 11,
Jervis, h. F. ditto; Turner, late 3 R. Vet. Bn. ; 13ie
2 B. Vet. Corn. ; Brook, h. p. 3 W. I. Reg. ;
Brooke, Unatt., Southampton.
), F'e'
Lieutenants—Tyers, 4 Dr., Bombay ; White (AdJ
Armstrong, 21 F., Vasse, Perth, W. Australia; Dl IW'
(Adj. ), 49 F. Hazareebaugh, Bengal ; Surtees, 52 r' ' foci'
badoes ; Halliday, 2 W. I. Reg., at sea on passage borae
Honduras; Guyon, h. p. R. Mar. ; Harries, h. p. 51.2
Gds. ; Chas. Smith, h. p., 33 F. ; A. Scott, h. P•
Gregory, h. p„ 78 F.
Second Lieutenant and Ensign—Mein, 74 F. St. Lucia
;
Williamson, h. p. R. Mar. Dlske'
Medical Department—Surg. Dr. M'Creery, 9 ;
61 F. ; Bush, h. p. 93 F. ; Lear, h. . 3 Vet. .„"n*D.
Campbell, h. p. Staff; Assist. Surg. Hopkins, 74 r•_,
nica ; Di. J. J. Hume, Staff, Windsor, Upp. Canada, co•o!
Memorandum—The death of Lieutenant JameS Ay re
Costobadie, of the 70th Regiment of Foot, was erroneous •
ported in the Army List for .January last.

mmellow.""" of
B. lad/
On the 3d inst., at ClarenceTHS
-crescent, Windsor. the ;913
Lieutenant Munro, of the Royal Horse Guards (131`1"
dahter.
On the Ist inst., at Dorset-terrace Mrs. Edward Crockug f::o,be
of a son. ,
On the 2d inst., at Bulstrode-street, Manchester-squat.e
lady of E. Baker, surgeon, of a son.

MARRIED.
Rainy, Esq.,
On the 16th ult., at Gourock. house, Renfrevrshire, G
lle woo.
oa eor
of Liverpool, to Margaret Janetta Louisa. 1 ,
pd
daughter of Lieuenant-General Darroch, of GouroeN
Daims.

DIED.
On the 25th ult., at S;. Omer, Frederic, son of 'l3°l's
Peirse, Esq. -foole'
On the 26th ult., at; Tenterden, the Rey. Samuel '-
Rector of Poplar, aged 82.
• - of
London Printed and Published by NI URDO Yt))',d 'ff
No. 112, Strand, at Me Sun ()ince, No. 112, Stva'"
this eounty of Middlesex.— Thursday, March 7, 3

.-~'