The Sun.
London, England, 1830-06-12 00:00:00

partial alteration—at least, as to the source from which
li.eva!TVfllnnss*l. r•-•
Mr euKE: netwittatanding -What
liaS fallen front the. Riglatsflon. Secretaryjmust say that,
in anyaOuioraat all events, whatever reduction§ mass have,
takenaplacea, have been effected through the perseveranee
of this ride of the House ; and I am also confident that
we should have lead no reduction this year either, if it were
not fOt; the pressing froin this side; and many, I know,.
are of the same opinion. Arnithia also I can say, that,
ever since' I haVe been a Member of 'Parliament, there has.
never beenn-eviireed a disposition on the part of any Ad-!,
ministration to reduce either salary or pension of their owni
accord. Ministers may be goaded to do so, I admit,. andi
especially when they see what I apprehend the. Right IlOna
Baronet -may see to-night, that the- probable majority or
the .House is against hint. In these cases he may bet
obliged, like.others similarly situated, to attend rather Morel
than is usual to the wishes of Parliament.
Sir R. PEEL-----Surely the Hon. Gentleman will not,
take credit to his friends for the reduction announced ini
the King's Speech to Parliament.—(Laughter-and bear.)i
Sir 'S. CANNING=I do not rise to delay the Corn-1
mittee, but 'I feel it right to notice an observation made an
the other side of the. House. The Hon. Member for Aber-i
deen,,in speaking of the Consul-General at Paris, observed
that his- office was open only for two hours each day.
can, however, assure, the Hon. Gentleman that he is alias
informed in that respect, as the office is constantly kept
open from eleven o'clock in the morning until four, and:
sometimes five, o'clock in the afternoon. I have also to
observe, that the Consul-General at Paris pays the salary,
of a Via:Consul out of his own pocket. As to the other]
expen !loded to to-night, it would ill become me to
occupythe tiine of the Committee, but I thought it right
to give this explanation ; and I trust that the Hon. Mena-
i ber for Aberdeen will feel glad of having bad this opporss
tunity of being undeceived.
The gallery was then eleared, and a division took place,
when there were, for—
The
original motion l2l
For Sir J. Graham's amendment 9B
Majority —23
NEW SOUTH WALES.
On our return to the gallery the Chairman was re ;ding
the vote submitted—namely, that a sure of 120,0001. I,e
granted to his Majesty for the eivil.establishment of the
colonies of New South Wales ands:Van' Diemen's Lands
and for the expences of convicts in those settlements.
Mr. HUME said that if Consular charges were of im-
portance, those of the colonies were much more so, and
especially those of New Sorith
.Wales„, for which they
were now called on to vote 120,000/., although, if the
local remetLes were properly managed, it would be suffi-
cient to pay every expence. The House was not aware
of the annual amount collected in these colonies. The last
account was that of 1825; and from that it appeared that,
in 1825, there had been received 68,000/., and the ex-
penditure came to 77,000/. From that period the in-
crease, both in the revenue and expenditure, had gone on
until the latter, in 1829, amounted to 138,000/. The
revenue in the colony last year hal been 94,000/. ; and
yet the House was asked for 120,000/. in addition, exclu-
sive of the military expences, which were included in the
annual estimates, and which came to 150,0001. more.
The colony might be maintained at one-half this expeoce;
and the revenue, if well applied, would cover the whole
expenditure Within 30,000/. or 40,000/. He had moved,
three months ago, for the accounts of the colony, in order
to be prepared for this vote, but could not get them.
'The progress of extravagance was enormous in every de-
partment, and that was not to be wondered at when all
was under. the supremacy of an, individual over whom
there was no controul, and who had three funds to draw
on—namely, the colonial revenue, of which he gave no
account.; bills drawn on the Treasury ;,and the commis-
sariat bills, drawn on account of the military. The Secre-
tary of State was in possession of no" accounts, and it was
'too bad to be called on to vote 270,000 E. without know-
ing 'how it -was to be expended.' - Under all the circum-
stances, he would impress upon tire Right Hon. the Colo-
nial Secretary the propriety of a Committee up stairs ;au&
one of the grounds was, that the Right Ilou. Gentleman
knew nothing of what all the money was required for, and
how it was expended; as the Governor would send borne
no accounts. There was gross mismanagsment ; for, on
the arrival of convicts, iostead of being hired out to those
who were anxious for them, they were sent in gangs to
lumber-yards, and other places, and placed at the disposal
of a Board of Works in the colony—a species of establish-
ment likely enough to lead ts extravagance; even in Eng-
land, where there were care and inspection, and doubly so
in a colony like New South Wales. Besides, there was , a
necessity for it, as every species of Government work
could be contracted for with advantage.
Sir ROBERT PEEL observed that, on the discussion
relative to the Penitentiary, his anxious attention had been
directed to this subject, and that he wished to have an in-
quiry instituted into all secondary; punishritents, as Well as
a _comparative examination into the expense attending
them, whether as referring to the hulks, the Penitentiary,
or New South Wales. His wish was, that such an in-
quiry should oow be set on foot and undertaken by one
Committee, AS the various subjects were inseparably con-
nected. He would ask to have tins., grant passed, and
have the inquiry instituted next Session.
Mr. HUME wished to, know, :what the commission
appointed at an early, periol of the present Session had
done, the object of which was- very like what he sought
for on the present occasion—namely, to reduce the ea-
pense of the colonies within their revenues. In this colony,
beginning with the Governor, his salary had been increased
from 3,100/, to 4,7001. a year, and his enrolumenti did
not -fall short of 6,000/: • The-expenses were enough to
frighten one. Then Mr., M'Clay, who had been sent out
as azecretary to the Governor of a paltry colony, received
2,000/. a year, and, over and above, had a superannuation
allowance of 750/. a year for an office he formerly held'in
England; so this person actually received 2,750/. per
annum. And what was the conduct of the Governor ?
Mr. Hayes and another were in gaol for 15 months, and
it was not in their power to bring the Governor to any
account. The House would recollect that, 'where Juries
were allowed, he (Mr. Hume) had protested against having
a military Jury in any cense between the Governor and a
subject. But that was disregarded, arid, in consequence,
what was the state of the •editora-of newspapers in the
colony, who had incurred his displeasure? There were
fourteen ex-officio informations against them, and they
were "tried by' military Juries. Now what ought to be said
to an. Attorney-General who Would institute prosecu-
tions against individuals, and to a Governor, who had,
the power of naming five officers to serve as Jurymen,
by his Brigade-Major ? Formerly thane were. five officers
for all trials ; but some of them not being found tract-
able, the five were'cho§en Weekly ; but now it was done
through the Brigade-Major. There could he no -chance of
a fair trial ; for, instead of going the fair way to meet any
charge, down came ex-officio informations, and the editors
of the Australian and the Monitor were now in gaol, and,
by the last accounts three more prosecutions ex-officio had
been commenced. It was right and just that there should
be opportunity of inquiring into the whole manner in
which the colony, was conducted. 'fire Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said, let us have a Committee next Session ; he
said, let it begin its labours to-morrow, and he would
engage to attend to it every day, from eleven o'clock until
the House sat. He asked, was it not five years since he
had Moved for accounts relative to this Colony, and how
much further had they got since ? He had recommended
the recall of the first Governor who bad refused the ac-
counts ; and certainly the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site had taken a vast deal of trouble in managing the ac-
counts of this colony, Such as they were, -for the Finance
Committee. There was another subject relating to the
colonies which deserved investigation ; it was that of pen-
sioners. It appeared that there were pensions to the
amount of 35,0001. a year granted out of colonial revenues,'
to individuals residing in England. An item in one ac-
count he held in his hand was, " To amount of pensions
transmitted to England 4,500/." He asked the Colonial
Secretary where the particulars of this account were'to be
found, and he said that he did not know where they were.
He believed the Right Hon. Gentleman to he thoroughly
sineere, and-that he did not know how these things went
on ; and was not this, he would ask, enough 'to excite
attention and require inquiry. He had moved for ac-
counts of the establishment at New South Wales, and any
year subsequent to those of 1824 which he had would
satisfy him a 'but he could not get :them, nor could the
Colonial Secretary. The Governor of New South Wales
made grants to every branch of his family, and there was a
-whole• colony of Darlings—(A laugh)—brother's and
brothers-in-law ; there were also a plenty who held both
offices 'and large grants. He wondered the Right Hon.
Secretary for the Cilionies did not make some. alteration,
althongh it was, at the same time, but justice to admit
that the Right Iton. Gentleman bed lately refused the
office of Treasurer tootle of the cionernor's brothers:in-lacy.
Mra W. lIQRTON approved of the appointment of a
Committee, but he would not be satisfied to refer to that
Committee the subject of expenditure only of the colony,
but 'also the inquiry how far the secondary punishment of
transportation thither acted as
.a prevention of cantle.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY said that the Hon. Member
for Aberdeen called for papers; for 1829 ; but these papers
could not he produced, because they had not yet arrived
from the colony. In reply to the Hon. Member's call for
other returns, he (Sir George Murray) told him that there
was great labour and much time to b.: emi toyed in getting