The Sun.
London, England, 1830-05-01 00:00:00

BEER BILL.

Mr. DEN ISnN presented A petition from the retail
brew" of Su'reY, praying for the complete throwing
open of the trade in beer, and at the same time thanking
Government for the remission of the beer duties which
had already been granted.
Mr. MONCK asked a question of the Chancellor of the
exchequer, which was inaudible in the gallery, but which
elicited an answer from that Right Hon. Gentleman, de-

daring that the object of the new law tr as to place all
retail dealers in beer on the same footing- with brewers.
The brewers, however, if they become rvtail dealers in
beer, must pay for a retail licence.
After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT, t he petition was
laid on the table. and ordered to be printed.
Mr. DENISON presented two petitio na, praying for
the abolition of the punishment of death in cases of for-
-ery, from Wandsworth, in Surrey, and. Leeds, in York-
shire.

Colonel BRAMSTON presented three petitions of a
similar nature, from Saffron-Walden, and from Braintree,
in Essex. He also presented a petition from certain
licensed victuallers in Essex, against the beer bill, and
another from certain manufacturers of flour, praying for
an increased duty upon foreign flour imported.
Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition from New-
port, in Monmouthshire, praying for the abolition of the
punishment of death in cases of forgery.
Mr. EGERTON presented a petition from the Li-
censed victuallers of Northwich, in Cheshire, against the
Beer Bill.

The Marquis of CHANDOS presented a petition from
.he West India planters, praying for a reduction of the
luty on rum. . . _

Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from certain
clergymen of the established church, formerly officers in
the army, praying that the House would take measures to
prevent the compulsory attendance of Protestant soldiers
at the religious ceremonies of persons of a different per-
suasion. The Hon. 11Iemher observed that a few years
ago Roman Catholic soldiers were relieved from the ne-
cessity of attending Protestant worship, and he only asked
that the same privilege should he extended to Protestant
soldiers.

After a few words from Sir G. MURRAY, Sir E.
KNATCHBULL, Mr. O'CoNwaLL, and Mr. TB.ANT, the
petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from Mr.
James Best, common-brewer, of the county of Kent,
against throwing open the trade in beer. He hoped that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would abandon that mea-
sure, and in lieu of it repeal the duty on malt.
The How. BARONET presented petitions of a similar na-
ture from the Hundred. of Milton, from Ashford, and

from Ramsgate.—Laid on the table.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the
journeymen paper-makers of Kent, against the excessive
use of machinery in the manufacture of paper.
Mr. WELLS supported the petition.
. _

Mr. HUME had been requested, by a deputation from
the petitioners, to support its prayer, but he had declined
to do so, because he could prove that a compliance with
their wishes would add to, instead of diminishing, the
general distress.
Mr. BELL presented petitions from the licensed
victuallers in North and South Shields, and also from
certain inhabitants of the district of Derwent, in the
county of Durham, against opening the trade in beer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave
notice, as we understood, that he would on Monday next
move for certain depositions which had been produced
on the part of the Crown in the case of the Doneraile
conspiracy.
Mr. HUSKISSON gave notice, that he would on
Thursday next submit a motion to the House on the sub-
ject of the trade between this country and Mexico.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped

the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) would not
press his motion for an account of all salaries and emolu-
ments received by Members of his Majesty's Privy Coun-
cil, on going into the Committee of Supply. All the
formation which the Hon. Baronet demanded would be

laid before the House in the course of a fortnight, in
consequence of .the motion made by the Hon. Member for
Lincolnshire.

Sir J. GRAHAM said if the returns alluded to by the
Right Hon. Gentleman were Pat isfac tory, it would not
be necessary for him to proceed with his motion, but if
they were not so, lie certainly would persevere, and under
thal feeling be consented to postpone his motion until the
I I th of May,
Mr. HUME said, in the formation of this new Com-
mittee, an Hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Parnell) the shiest
man, he would say, that ever eat on any Committee,
had been most unaccountably excluded.
The (%H.34.,'!'cgfl.Oß of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the Hon. Baronet TeOFFe4 tp, had been inadvertently,
and not intentionally, exch:yied ; for his own part he had
no objection that the Hon. fi4rollo 41,04 pl!tced on
the Committee.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE
ESTIMATES.

Mr. t'ERCEVAL moved the Order of the Day for
the House re.olving ittelf into a Committee of the whole
House to consider further of the supply to be granted to
his Majesty. On the motion of the sung Hon. Oettile.•
man, the Ordnance Estimates were ordered to be referred
to Ole said Committee.
In the Cnaunittee, Mr. PKRCEVAL moved that a sum
not exceeding 62,011, be granted to defray the expenses
of the corps of Royal Sappera aftd lfners, &c., for 1830.
Mr. HUME objected to the vote. Hu congdpred this
corps as entirely too numerous. In 1792 the corps of
eng43errs had only 50 officers, there were now 230.
Mr, PERVEVAL said, it was necessary, for the pur-
poses of instruction, to Jeep up the engineer corps in time
of peace.
Mr. O'CONNELL would vote for any raduction that
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen might propose.

After a few words from Mr. HUME, Mr. PaacxvAL,
CO!OCel TIiFyCH, and Mr. O'CoNtim.r„, the resolution
Walt agreed to,
The next resolution was, f. that a sum, not exceeding
83,6261., be granted to his Majesty 1.0. 40fraying the re-
maining part of the expcnce of keeping up the hop-A Fp-
gimept of Artillery for the year 1830, the sum Of
200,0001, 41ready been granted by a vote of credit
for the same purpose."--Agreed to.
On the vote of 37,1111. for £be expnce of the Royal
Horse Artillery, including the Rocket-troop ann. Riding
House, for the year 1830.

Mr,. PPM asked, what was the use of a rocket corps
in a time of peai.:e?
Lord E. SOMEItSET said the rocket corps was a

force which could not be created in a rtey ; and it was ne-
cessary to keep it up that it might be in reedines,7 for a
t;rp,e of war.
Mr, O'CONNELL observed this sort of proceeding
and argument eiiag.,ed an utter want of sympathy between
the House and the peopia, whose money was taken to
support such establishments.
Lord HOWICK was of opinion that effective ec,enotiii
was noii; likely to be promoted by objecting to minute
items of expenditure in the spirit which appeared to
actuate the Hon, and Lear4ed f,lientleman.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL did not feel lomd by the blame
which the Noble Lord appeared disposed to a4aeh to his
copatirct, any more than he should feel exalted by hie ap.
prohatioar.
Sir H. HARDIATPE stated that the rocket corps con-
s;sted of but 86 men.
After an observation from Mr. itcfarti.y, Mr. \\rea-
m:more, and Mt'. DOHERTY; the vote was agreeei to.
4 grant of 1,223/. for the expences of the Director-
General of rke Field Train and the Field Trein Depart-
ment, for the year 1539; was agreed te.
On the motion for a gewat p 1 9,127/. for the medical
"establishment of the military depaitroo4
,7f the Ordnance
(pr the year 1830,
HARDINGE, in answer to a question from
Air. Alaberry, stated, that the establishment at Wool-
wich would be nisreilsAd with as soon as circumstances
admitted, and the medical eatabh;elrinent of the Ordnance
,
• placed ut.der the army department.----Agr.ce4 tll.
Mr. PERCEVAL moved that 3,402/. be grante4 to
hia Majesty for the expenditure of the establishment of
civil officers, profeseors, and masters of the Royal Military
Academy at Wooiwi,eb,
Mr. HUAIE inquired how guepy cadets were now upon
the establishment ?
Lord DOWNES replied 123 ; and added thiat ri,yripg
i.he last year 12 had been admitted.
Mr, WINE asked what portion of these were liens of
military ofticersi
Mr. DOWNES said en= }:•ere 20 sons of officers of
artillery in the academy, and 10 or I;ll.ec,vs of officesin
the army.
Mr. HUME observed it would appear from this st,rte-
ment; that iAart,erul of being an asylum for the sons of me-
ritorious officers, this e;trtblishment had been converted
into a nursery for favourites, evh;,i urp educated and sup-
ported like paupers at the public expert t.
Mr. AIABERLY concurred in what had heed eaaei by
bas Hop. Friend, that it was a desire to keep up patronage
which it,thiced Government to keep up a school at the
public expense; 1.)51,1f,:1c1i a school was to be at all con-
'tinned, it ought to be fur tlae 4;4er;tgrieus officers, and not
for those of civilians.
Sir H. HARDINGE was not understood in :wha,t -41 e
had said. In 1829 there were 52 cadets admitted, 18 of.
whorn were sons of officers; and in 11328, out of 24
cadets, were suns of officers, Would the Hon. Member

. , .
contract for sons 01 p,dlr2rs ?
Mr. HUME asked why yell as for medical men,
who were educated at their own ezpv.K.se, apd subjected to
an examination as to their qualifications? He mnst Tepeat
the term " paupers," as applied to those young men who
were thus supported at the public expense.
Sir H, kIgRAINGE protested against the use of the

word " pititiers" to a let of yours; men just entering upon
life. But he would not dwell further upon it, for he
reated it with contempt.
Mr. HUME rose to order. The Hon. Baronet in ap-
plying that term had acted in a manner unbecoming hi,
situation.

Lord MILTON was quite sure that the Hon. Member
for Montrose misunderstood the Hon. Baronet. The
term contempt was not intended to apply as an insult to the
Hon. Member, but to the argument he used.
Sir H. HARDINGE bad certainly not meant to offer'
any thing like personal insult to the Hon. Member for
Montrose. With respect to the Woolwich academy, be
contended that it ought to be supported by the public ex-
pence, on the ground that it was necessary to keep our
artillery in that state which rendered it the most effective
in Europe. When he was attached to the Prussian army
in France, an examination was ordered by the Prussian
Government of the state of the artillery of the Austrian.
Russian, French, and English armies, and it was admitted
that the materiel of the English artillery was the most
effective of all.

Lord HOWICK, though he did not concur in the plan
of general and indiscriminate attacks on every small item
of expenditure, yet agreed with the Hun. Member for
Montrose that this was an expellee which the public ought
not to be called upon to pay.
Mr. 11. GORDON should wish to know from the Gal-
lant Officer why the cadets at Woolwich should not he re-
quired to pay for themselves as well as those at the Mili-
tary College?
Sir H. HARDINGE replied, that not being allowed to
enter any other branch of the service but the artillery or
engineers, and the promotion in both being very slow, and
the study and application severe, it was only fair to give
them their education at the public expense.
Mr. R. GORDON professed that this explanation was
any thing but satisfactory.
Lord ALTHORP did not see why the same principle
should not apply to the Woolwich academy as to the n'ival
school at Portsmouth. He did not think the public ought
to be called upon to pay for the education of persona for
the army.

After a few words from Sir H. HARDINIE and Lord
ALTHORr,

Mr. BARING contended, that it would be no hardship
to oblige those ybHng men to pay for themselves.
Mr. HUME contended, that the expense of this esta-
blishment was not merely 3,000/., the amount of the pre..
sent vote. The whole expense of living, servants, and
other items, exceeded 11,0001. a-year.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY opposed the present vote.

Mr. Maberly, Sir H. Hatilinge, Mr. Perceval, Sir R.
Wilson, and other Hon. Members then entered into a pro-
tracted conversation on the propriety of acquiescing in the
proposed vote, or deferring it to a future opportunity.
The question was at last put on the Resolution, when
the Committee divided :

Ayes
Noes
Majority in favour of the Resolution —72

The next Resolution was the sum of 587,1081. for de-
fraying the extraordinaries of the Office of Ordnance, for
the year 1830, after a deduction of 167,547/. for the sale
of old stores.

Mr. MAZERLY, Mr. Hums, and Mr. R. GORDON
opposed taking.the votes in this shape, and contended that
it should be taken in five separate items; while the CHAN-
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Sir 11. TT --ARDINGE, and Mr.
Pattervar. maintained that this was the most convenient
mode for taking it; and after a long discussion upon that
point, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER consented
to withdraw the vote, and so shape it as to meet the views
of the Hon. Members opposite.
In the mean time, on the suggestion of Sir H. Han.
DINGE, the COmmittee proceeded to the next Resolution,
which was for the sum of 4,084/. to defray the expences
of services performed for the Office of Ordnance, and which
had not been provided for by Parliament, for 1830. On
the question being put on this Resolution,
Lord MILTON was desirous to take the opportunity
to enter his protest agairst the whole military system of
this country. A Gallant Officer opposite had said, that
having been in Paris in 1814, he saw the deficiency of
their artillery there compared with ours, and he asked,
would we now break down such a superior establishment?
The fact was, that his Majesty's Ministers seemed to take
for granted that, in time of peace, England should be pre-
pared for war, not in the way in which our ancestors
would keep her prepared, but according to the new-
f.•mgled doctrines which a desolating war of a quarter of a
century's duration had introduced, He (Lord Milton)
would contend that we ought not to keep up a large stand-
ing army in time of peace. He had to complain not only
of the Government but of that House, for maintaining the
present extravagant military establishment of this country.
-,-(Hear.)—He was opposed to the whole military system
of this country. ministers had made a great noise and
parade about the reductions which thay proposed to make,
but the distress of the country would force them to make
still greater reductions.—(Hear.)—Besides the objections
which he felt to the magnitude of the expenses, he must
say that they appeared to him objectionable owing to the
41t,ttltiopa which they were producing in the character of
the nation itself.—(Flear,)—They were making us the
paltry imitators titan immeasurable distance of thp great
milit,ry powers of the Continent. He contended that at
the present moment, the military establishments of Eng-
land were monstrous. A standing army of 90,000 men
was a monstrous armament for England to maintain. To
what dangers wero we exposed at present ? To the danger
of invasion ? if so, was ii a force of 9P,01:T0 men that
would prevent our land from being polluted by the hostile
tread of the foreigner ? No, we must look for safety to
the energy of the nation, and to its devotion to its free in-
stitutions, which would increase daily if the House would
oniy yipld to the spirit of the times, and give additional
strength to all our resouwt;ea by a reduction of overgrown
establishments.—(Hear, hear.)

The vote was then agreed to.
The next grant proposed was a stun of 300,245/. for
the military superannuated in the ordnance.—Agreed
'file neat grant proposed was a sum of 62,6551., for
the consolidated ordnance 4nd barrick superannuated, in
Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies.
After a few words from Me. Hum, the Crwici:r.Loa
of the EXCHEQUER, and Sir H. Hamill:rot, the grant was
g.greil to.
79,4554 ter:: then voted for the military store branch
in Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies.
The next grant proposed was 66,1221. to defray the
command pay and extra pay to engineers, and allowances
for their servant.. It was agreed to, after an observation
of £sir. Hung upon the strangeness of engineers, who
received such liber4 pay, receiving double pay for any
extra command,
115,4131. was then granted for ordnance works and
repairs for the year 1830.
The next grant proposed was 194,3351. for repairs of
barrack's and tlie expenditure of barrack-masters.
Mr. HUME asked why we sh,onid pay 7,0001. for the
erection of barracks at Gibraltar'? Taies, NA heavy
taxes too, were levied on all British subjects in that Place
for the erection of the fortifications, and yet, instead of
being Ei.polied to that purpose, they were quietly put into
his :Majesty's pocke),. He considered that the taxes thus
raised at Gibraltar were illegal,—they were raised by the
King's warrant, and not in consequence 'of any vote of
that House. Again, in Malta, 2,6971. was paid for the
same object; and yet Ministers refused to tell Parliament
7,liat revenue was raised in Malta, or what they
did ;'_`P. in the West Indies 30,0001. was
applied to the same object, though he 44i. per cent. duties
were originally given to the Crown for" 'Twinc,f diffi-
culty ! why there can be none in England, when the pub-
lic: money is thus squandered upon objects for which the
focal gr.,:icrnments either had provided or could provide
funds of ibeie ir-si?a,—(l-lear.)—Again, in Canada
66,000/. was devoted 'to liarraCii:--bri;lrling, independent
of 1,000,0001. spent in fortifications. Why the people
of England should pay that money, he could not con-
ceive. If we continued to misgovern the Canadas, our
Varrac."o end fortification would avail us not : if we go-
verned them (yea to be governed, they would
find a sufficient defence inthear own b.aie hosoms against
all the attacks of the United States. At keisenr, owing
to our misgovernment, a civil war was all but raging in
Canada. For his own part, nothing could please him
bct;.er than to see Canada free and independent. In Nova
Scotia, too, barracks at the public expence ;
so, too, at the Cape of Good ilajic, 7'here he sawa charge
of 9,0001. debited to the public foi.` the same p4rposes.
That colony would pay all its expences, if it were not un-
fortunately kept in leading-strings by its most sapient
Gos,cirio%: There was a large charge for the same ob-
ject under the iis.4 of Mauritius and Ceylon, though it
had been stated that those would gladly pay all
their expences if we would onli.aditiit they ygar at a
less duty. We had done so, but they had performed their
,F_re of the contract. Then there was 1,135/. for bar-
ir,Ttir.;,:c at Sierra Leone, a place which we ought
long sit we He concluded by asserting,
that if the House would` but appri;';4. Committee to in-
quire into the expenditure of these sums, this gsauf would
be reduced to a twentieth part of its present amount.
Mr. R. GORDON observed, that it had been stated
be barrackspaidoauntd
of th e fortifications4i.per in
cent the
had been misappropriated for a
ivuaettisetas,lilutdliiiee,soeurxoput ehgn.4hs:ees,ttooo;
ie
long time past from V,Ari°43A79$ivys, 115 Hon. Friend,

the Member for Aberdeen, had moved for a return of the
sums thus obtained during the last few yearu.Ancritats
return had been put into the hands of Hon. Mnbeis that
morning. All persons who held West Indian property
had recently been great sufferers from the depreciation
which it had undergone; and as those 4i per cent. duties
were paid in kind, he wee afraid, that owing to the depre-
ciation of West Indian produce, the Crown would not be
able to pay the pensions which it had granted upon them.
To his great surprise he found, that in the last two years
they had doubled, and nearly trebled, their former amount.
Formerly they had amounted to the sum of 28,000/. or
29,0007. ; in the year 1828 they had amounted to
62,0001. ; and in the year 1829, to 66,0001. How had
this increase been effected ? By calling in the aid of his
Majesty's Attorney and Solicitor-General. They had dis-
covered that the King's sugars were not liable to duty;
and thus no duty had been paid upon them since the 25th
of March, 1826. Thus his Majesty now got the whole
profits arising from the sale of the sugar, whilst
formerly those profits were diminished by the pay-
ment of the duty upon them. He called the attention of
the House to this paper, which had only been presented
that day, and which had, on that account, perhaps, escaped
the vigilant attention of his Hon. Friend the Member for
Aberdeen.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Act of Parliament prevented Government from im-
posing any charges upon these 4 per cents. in the Wes
Indies, except for the payment of the church, and some
other services. This was the opinion of the law officers
of the Crown. The remainder of the expenditure was
made up from the general colonial funds.
Mr. HUME said that these sugar duties bad however
come regularly in, and been carried as usual into the
funds of the Exchequer. In 1917 they left a surplus of
2,0001, and in the last year upwards of 66,0001.—where
was the balance?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
these receipts had been regularly accounted fur.
The resolution was then agreed to.
In answer to a question from Mr. Hums,

Sir H. HARDIN GE said that the expence of the bar-
rack department had been reduced 42,0001., and that in
1825, in consequence of an inquiry instituted by the Duke
of Wellington into all the barrack buildings of the colonies,
a great Living, both in point of expence and health, had
been obtained by the use of iron bedsteads, instead of ham-
mocks.

Mr. PERCEVAL next moved that a sum not exceed-
ing 211,2131. be granted to defray the civil and military
contingencies of the office of Ordnance for the year 1630.
The resolution was agreed to, as well as anothtr of
2,6001. for defraying the charges and fees payable to the
Exchequer o❑ account of the Ordnance.

Mr. HOBHOUSE wished to know whether the bar-
racks at the Mews at Charing-cross were to be still up-
held, to deform the got w and expensive improvement; made
in the same neighbourhood.

Mr. PERCEVAL said that quarters would be still found
there for the original number of soldiers.

Mr. R. GORDON objected to these barracks, more
pat ticularly as it was intended t) billet soldiers on those
who sold beer under the new regulations.
The resolution was agreed to.
The House resumed, and the report ordered to be re-
ceived on Monday.