The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JUNE 21, 1839.

country on matters the most fundamental and essential—
( Hear.) Let them consider this, how far the plan, being
such as it was in principle, possessed even the temporary
and partial recommendation of popularity.—( Hear.) He
would not repeat what had been stated with more force by,
others respecting the Church and the Wesleyan Metho-
dists, but he would allude to the case of the Protestant
Dissenters, the chief section that remained. Wnere were
they on this occasion ?—( Cheers.) Did the House not
recollect the activity they had displayed in petitioning
on former occasions —did they not recollect the peti-
tions with reference to the abolition of slavery and the
abolition of Church-rites—that there was not a Dissenting
pulpit throughout the country from which the Minister
did not tell the congregation that petitions for such and
such objects lay in the vestry for signature? Where
were those petitions now ? There had been here and
there some feeble and partial demonstrations, but they
bad not dared to test the body, even of the Dissenting
population, because it was known that the good sense,
the right feeling, and the religious principles of the
people were opposed to it. —(Hear, hear.) He could
not help alluding to one very short passage which had
already been s:ated in the debate, from a resolution agreed
to at a meeting of the Protestant Society held on the 13:1)
of June. They said much for the Government, and in the
third resolution they stated, that .‘ while to that Go-
vernment the Committee offered their thanks, they ap-
proved of the discretion that induced them not to
urge forward recently a plan which multitudes
of pious men, under much obvious misapprehen-
sion, had opposed, and would now ads ise them as a
general rule to apply any further Parliamentary rant in
the same manner es those which were in former sessions
supplied, only conferring assistance on poor and pojaulous
districts, where local contributions cannot be obtained,
under the inspection and guidance either of the National
School Society or the British and Foreign School Seciety,
as circumstances, in the judgment cf the Committee of
Privy Council, in either case might direct."—( Loud cheers
from the Opposition.) What was the meaning of that
proposition ? It was a good index of the sentiments of the
party they represented. The opinion of those individuals
was, that under all the circumstances of the case,
regard being had to the opinion of the country, that the
Government ought at once, and frankly, to revert to the
system of the foregoing year, with the single excepiion of
a difference which was technical in its nature. The diffe-
rence they recommended was not to depart Trom the guid-
ance of the two societies, but merely to modify the rule.
As regarded the religious plan, therefore, the Govern-
ment's own friends had advised them to do that which was
recommended by their opponents, to revert to the plan
which had been pursued with general satisfaction. Would
to God they had listened to the advice their friends had given
them.—( Cheers.) That body to which they looked for sup-
port having declared their opinion, surely it wqs not p )ssible
they could hope to carry into effect, a plan which was
revolting to the general sense of the country, and which
placed in the ranks of their opponents the Wesleyan
Methodists.—( Hear, hear.) They talked of peace
and union, but what peace and union, did they
expect from forcing forward a plan, disowned by the
Church, discountenanced by the Wesleyans, and which
the representatives of the Dissenters were unwilling or
afraid to countenance. On both these grounds be did
trust the House would accede to the motion of his Noble
Friend, confident as he was that, wheth_r or not the Go-
ernruent might by some unexpected piece of good luck
succeed that night in obtaining a decision in their favour
by one of those glorious m ijorities which had lately distin-
guished their career.—( Loud cheering and laughter.)
That they would not be able to carry their vote through
Parliament, and that even if they did, it would exercise a
greater amount of indignation in the minds of the people
than for many years the history of this country had wit-
nessed.—( Great cheering )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and
Mr. Shiel rose together. and notwithstanding there
were several calls for the latter Gentleman, the former
persisted in addressing the House—The principles
that had been avowed by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite were
inconsistent with all notions of civil and religious freedom.
—( Ironical cheering.) He hoped Hon. Gentlemen would
have the goodness to follow him while he endeavoured to
pursue the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down.—( Similar cheering.) The Hon. Gentle-
man had assumed that in this matter, the State had a con-
science, and that conscience ought to be directed and ap-
plied to this particular purpose. He said the State was
bound to promulgate religion, but that it was not justified
more than any individual in propagating error.—( Hear.)
No individual could agree more than he did to the necessity
of connecting secular education with education in religion.
He believed a merely secular education would be inopera-
tive for any good purpose—they must make schools of edu-
cation schools of religion, and that must be the true roll-
gion.—( Hear, hear.) Then, what sees the conclusion
they were to draw? If they proposed to connect with
education those parts of a religion which was common to all
Christians (which, on the other side, would altogether un-
dervalue it) it would be said they were generalising reli-
gion, and there doctrines led to infidelity or atheism ;
therefore, as to that general instruction the Hon. Gen-
tleman and his friends entertained his entire objection. But
would they allow in one common school instructions in the
faith of the Church of England and in any other
faith? No. Would they allow the introduction of
schools for separate religions? Would they allow a
a Catholic School by the side of a Protestant School?
No, they would not admit of that. If they excluded sepa-
rate instruction—if they reserved themselves solely for the
educating of the children of the Established Church, and
the principles of the Established Church, the principle laid
down by the Hon. Gentleman amounted to this, that they
were to educate the children of the Established Church,
but that no other children belonging to any other denomi-
nation should be educated.—( Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) That was the logical conclusion. The Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire, and the Ho-
nourable Member who bad last spoken, said they
would admit the British and Foreign School, be-
cause it was formed upon a basis ccmmon to the
Church, but would they admit of a school for Dissenters
in England? No:—(Cheers,) The argument used by
the Hon. Member for the University of ford was this—
The State is only justified in teaching the truth—the truth
is to be found in the Church of England.—(Cheers.) The
principles avowed by the Noble Lord, the Member for
North Lancashire, if they led to anything, would lead to
the vote against the grant to Maynooth.—(Tory chem.)
The Hon:Member for the University of Cambridge, who
for so many years proposed that vote, and the Right Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, who so often
defended that vote, and the Right Hon. Baronet,
the Member for Pembroke, who approved of the
principles of it—they were now surrounded by a
set of cheerers when they advocated the opposite prin-
ciple.—(Loud cheers.) The principles which he was now
contending for, if they were right, were not limited to the
island in which we lived—they were universal. The Hon.
Gentleman who had been the Colonial Secretary must
admit this was equally good with respect to the colonies.—
( Cheers.) This country was bound simply to teach the
oath, and according to the arguments of Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, if they believed that Church to be the truth,
they were not to instruct in the doctrines of another
Church. He held a paper in his hand, showing an account
of the Church Establishment in the colonies ; from which
it appeared that this country supported most largely the
Church of England—largely the Church of Scotland ; in
four colonies the Dutch Church, and in many of the colo-
nies, to the horror of the State conscience, the Church of
Rome—(Cheers and laughter)—nay, further, there was
provision made for the Jews in Jamaica. What then be-
same of the State conscience? He would appeal to the
conscience and heart of the lion. Gentleman, and ask if
he would be justified in leaving the Queen's subjects in
distant lands, unassisted by religious instruction, and say
his feeling was with them that the conscience of
the State forbad him to assist them.—( Cheers.)
He had another high authority to refer to. He had the
honour to be Secretary of State for the Colonies for a
short time. His Noble Friend opposite preceded him,
and he ( Mr. R. ) was succeeded by a very distinguished
statesman. One of the first matters - brought under the
consideration of that Goverment, of which his successor
was- a prominent member and an ornament, was a plan for
the endowment of Roman Catholic Chaplains and Chapels
in New South Wales.—( Hear, hear.) He could refer to
the despatch on this subject, which was dated February 20,
1835. It referred to another despatch of the 22d De.
comber, 1834, for the appointment of four additional chap-
lains to the Clergy of New South Wales—that 150/.
should be appropriated towards their outfit, and that they
should have a salary of 1201. each after their arrival. Dr.
Folding went out as Bishop, and with him he took out the
Rev. Messieurs. Gregory, Keusell, and Kenny. The de-
spatch concluded by recommending the propriety of the Ro-
man Catholic Bishop havinc, an influence over the Catholic
population. The dispatch' was signed Aberdeen. This
arrangement, though some time in contemplation, was not
completed until it bad been approved of by Lord Aber-
deen, and that Noble Lord gave it his entire approbation.
Now, according to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,
that conduct was a violation of the conscience of the
State—a propagation of error—a promulgation of the pes-
tilence of Popery.—(Cheers.) Surely the Hon. Gentle-
man would not limit by degrees of latitude and longitude
the extent of moral and religious truth and education. He
would no doubt advocate the same religious principles
here that he would in the Colonies. The lion. Gentle-
man opposite was Under Secretary of State for the Colo-
nics at the same time. What became, therefore, of the
principles of their State conscience? If they would adopt I
his principles they must retrace their steps—they must
repeal the East India Charter Act, they must alter the
whole of the Colonial Ettablishment, and declare that
all that they had done of a liberal and compre-
hensive nature had been done in error, and must
therefore he now rescinded, for it hurt their consciences.
—( Cries of " Hear," and cheers.) He (Mr. Rice)
objected not to those principles alone. He also objected
to the principle raised on the other side, that the educa-
tion of the people belonged to the clergy of the Established
Church exclusively.—( Cheers.) He must refer to the
Petitions on this subject. He found that there had been
presented 242 petitions, with 26,603 signatures against any
system of education not based upon the principles of the
Established Church. So far those petitions were consistent
with the Right Hon. Member, the Member for Oxford.
However, he would remind the House, there had been
most extraordinary delusions used to get up those signatures,
and he.( r.IR ) would charge, as far as parliamentary cour-
tesy would allow, the outcry which had been made use of for
that purpose with falsehood. The Hon. Gentlemen opposite
were assuming one question and avoiding the real one, for in
the House, and out of the House, it was well known that the
real question was, did truth and religion command that
education should be in the principles of the Established
Church, and ought therefore the education of the youth
of this country be exclusively entrusted to the clergy of
the Established Church ?—( Hear, hear.) He would en-
tirely contravene that principle. But if that were not the
principle the Hon. Gentleman opposite acted upon, what
did the Noble Lord opposite mean by referring to the
Norman-French law of Henry the Four:h and the Chief
Justice Holt, to show that the schoolmaster should be
subject to the clergy. He ( Mr. R.) did not intend to
interfere with the proper jurisdiction of the clergy—
he wished to preserve unimpaired the superiority of their
control, and the use of their spiritual functions, and the full

extent of their proper rights—protection, and encourage.
ment on the part of the State ; but he did not wish to see
the clergy taking a step of an aggressive character, and
claiming functions which did not belong to them. No
doubt it would be a most salutary thing for the Clergy to
supervise the schools, and visit them, and guard them
against error, but they must not take the schools under
their exclusive centroul and guidance. He remembered
that when the first Report of the Educational Commis-
sioners for Ireland was presented to Parliament, it con-
tained a suggestion to the effect that the Clergy of the
Established Church were bound to visit the schools, and
that one of the Rev. Gentlemen most effectually replied
by stating that such visitations would be incompatible
with the due discharge of their spiritual duties.—( Cheers. )
He must now refer to the facts. He was sure many of the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite were entirely igno-ant of the
base delusive circumstances under which many of the
petitions against the system had been got up. He would
undertake to show that cards and statements emblazoned
with the words " Popery, Infidelity, Latitudinarianism."
and God knows what, had been circulated to excite the
people to oppose the plan. How could they reconcile this
with the violation of the State conscience ? ( Cheers.)
If they would go to the mass of the people of England and
tell them the truth, by stating that they wished to have
the education of the whole of the people confined to the
Clergy. of the Established Church, then let them get
up petitions if they could. He could assure the House
that many petitions presented, especially those upon reli-
eious subjects, would not stand the test of inquiry.
One of these petitions had been presented from Oxford,
he knew not whether from the University, at all events it
was from the Divines of that University, and if ever there
were a petition in which they could expect to find the truth
correctly stated, it would be in a petition of that kind.
there were many others of a similar nature, and he found
that a high authority on that subject had stated that the
Right R.verend Prelate who presided over the See of
Exeter could command as many petitions as he lik,el
from the Clergy of his diocese.—( Loud cheering from the
Ministerial benches, mingled with cries of " No, no," from
the Opposition.) On the subject of these petitions, the
high authority, which he would hereafter name, had de-
clared that if the petitioners who had affixed their names to
these petitions, were not better informed than their brethren
of Oxford on the subject of the petitions, their authority
was entitled to but little weight; and he concluded with
the following, which he would use in reference to petitions
which had been presented on this subject, without mean-
ing the slightest disrespect to the petitioners. The peti-
tions were full of ms statements. He admitted that those
statements had been made Without any disposition to de-
ceive. He gave them credit for being actuated by a de-
sire to support the Established Church ; but the House
should be on its guard horr+t-iv:ss-teikto grant" the prayer
of petitions which betrayed the greatest ignorance on the
subject. Those petitions had been presented from the
Clergy of Oxford against the Church Dsicipline B. 11; and
the high authority who had thus designated them was the
Archbishop of Centel bury.—( Loud cheers.) This was
the character that had been given .to petitions got up in
consequence of a religious cry among the clergy
themselves.—(Loud and long continued cheerieg.)
He would now apply himself shortly to the
four principal objections which had been taken'
by his Noble Friend to the proposed plan, and he thought
he should be able to answer each of them satisfactorily.
Ile had first objected to their mode of proceeding; he had
said, and it had been again reputed in the course of the
debate, that be objected to this plan being sanctioned by
that House alone, and being brought into operation by a
vote of only one branch of the Legislature. On this point
he would merely quote the authority of his Noble Friend.
What course had he pursued in bringing forward his system
of Education for Ireland? Why he had proposed it by a
vote of the House of Commons—he had carried it by a
vote of the House of Commons:—(Cheer;.) Therefore
he had, by his own act, superseded the deliberations of the
other branch of the Legislature—( Loud cheers) —and yet
he now came down and raised an outcry—( Continued
cheering)—against the Government, on this absurd ground.
—( Long continued cheering, which drowned the
remainder of the sentence.) They had merely pursued
the same course that he himself had done.—( Loud cheers. )
He now came to the second ground of objection, that the
supeeintendence of the plan was confided to an irrespon-
sible tribunal. If ever there was responsibility on earth,
it would be found here. The Board was composed of
gentlemen whose names were communicated to the
House, who all held offices under time Crown, from which
they might be removed by an address from this House.
What greater responsibility could they have ?—(Cheers.)
But that was not all; his Noble Friend might have raised
this argument if he had asked to have this made a cherge,
on the Consolidated Fund—that would have given the un-
controllable power over the grant, Such an attempt could
hardly have escaped the vigilance of the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny.—( Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume.) So that they
bad not only the responsibility of the Members of the Privy
Council, but they had the responsibility to the House of
Commons necessarily attendant 'upon the fact of this being
an annual gr. nt. So that they had two responsibilities,
and his Noble Friend knowing that two negatives make an
affirmative, argued by analogy that two responsibilities con-
stituted irresponsibility. But, said his Noble Friend, book
at the insidious nature of this Whig Government—see what
a scheme lurks behind this minute. . He would not go
into the circumstances of " wherever" being, by a misprint,
substituted for " whenever." They could hardly imagine that
their normal schools were intended to he locomotive ; but
there was, it seemed something insidious in the last clause
of the minute, giving them the power of altering or
amending anything in the plan. This concealed some in-
sidious intention of bringing fcirward something- that
should make the stones of the Churches start from
their places with horror. The Noble Lord had intro-
duced many Bills into that House, and had he not
observed that in everyone of them the last °lame permitted
any alteration or emendation that might be deemed ne-
cessary ; and, could anything ho more absurd or pre-
sumptuous than for thrm to imagine that their plan would'
stai,d in no need of amendment ? But it was, perha,s,
thought that advantage might be taken of the recess to 'do
that behind their backs which they would not dare to do
while Pialiament was sitting.—( Loud opposition cheers. )
If they could be so knavish—( Loud cheering - from the
Opposition, responded to by cheering from the Ministerial
Benches)—it they were so suspicious he would beg to
remind them that those who were most ready to suspect
others, were, in general, the most open to suspicion them-
selves.—(Loud cheering from the Ministerial side of the
House.) But, if they were so knavish, how were they to
carry the schemes into effect by issuing another minute
which would be surely called for, laid on the table of that
House, and it would require no litttle lack of prudence
to attempt an act of treachery which would have been so
sure to be discovered, and if they mistrusted their
motives, they might, at all events, trust their discretion.
He hail but a few words more to say relative to the expo-
sition of the principle which had been avowed by sonic
and inferred by others. The principle contended for was
that education belonged exclusively to the Church, and
that the pastors of the Church could not resign it into
other hands without disobeying the commands of the
Divine Founder of the Church. Those were the words
of Dr. M'Halc, under whose banner they were now fight-
ing. The authority of the Weslcyart Methodists had been
referred to for the purpose of showing that the Minutes
of Council were objectionable. He believed that there
were some gentlemen opposite that were present du-
ring place years back upen educa-
tion,
said that it was delightful to
a when d i s e u
Nsisri n
Wilberforce w ic h t e
see men join together for the purpose of endeavouring to
educate the people ; in discussing such a subject, he felt
that he had risen into a purer air, and was dissolved from
all feelings, except that or love, before which all other
subjects bowed. Mr. Wilberforce did not doubt that he
was accompliching the work of love, when lie was ex.
tending education, but in doing so he did not confine his
views solely to the Church.—(Hear.) Inwas said that
there was danger in the power that was to be given to
change the distribution of the money. Who was it that
first adopted that course—who was it that first departed
from the Treasury minute in that respect? Why the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. He departed from the
principle with respect to a school which had been
recommended to him by the Noble Lord the Member for
Liverpool. lion. Members opposite, therefore, were now
dTeuperreec iwarsi g,
there c o uf
orrsee,
nuhriee 'lteividiad
iityintliteriesuelb objections tions adopted.
t
had been raised, but there was a power given by
upon there
whichwas no
there kind
waso subject
no t
it of exciting a Church cry in the country. He
disposition to raise a Church cry. Take, for instance, the
Prison Bill.—(Opposition cheers.) Why, the great sup-
wouldintroduced
into
that
potter of the clause to which he referred in that Bill was
arfylouthsact,
the Noble Lord opposite. Now, let Hon. Members cheer
that.—(l-fear, bear.) Let them legislate upon the present
sulject before the cry raised throughout the country would
incapacitate them from bestowing upon it the calm and
temperate deliberation it required. He felt satisfied that,
under existing circumstances, if the State did not ap•
preach the performance of its duty in educating the people,
legislation. They could not touch the
Factory
ithout alluding to the question of
the danger to the State would be infinite and inealculaele.
Hon. Members opposite knew it themselves, and felt it,
schools—they could not refer to the administration of the
Poor-laws without raising the
.question of schools—thee
uessytisotenn questions °ri all
could not allude to the criminal laws of the
country without being shocked at the deplorable ignorance
of the people.—( Hear and cheers.) Religious instruction
could not be dispensed without first sending before them
the pioneers of education ; and yet, by the course taken in
the present question—by the gall, and b:tterness, and mis.
representation, andhice
hxaigtagderbateloonn of. pans,
y politics and
party excitementw an end to all mtxed up with it, they
had gone far to put legislation on the sub'ect.
He trus.ed the
, House would, by its vote that night, j recog-
nise;le of a general system of
the principle education to the
people ; but in one thing it was certain lion. Members op-
posite had succeeded, they had retarded the real cause of
education in the country.—( Loud cheers,)
Sir
JAMES GRAHAM said the present question was
so important that he conld not give a silent vote upon it.
had Tneybeen challenged on his ride of the House to state
their opinion.; frankly, and, not presuming to speak for any
other individual than himself, he would state the erounds
which induced him to support the proposition of his Hon.
Friend. As the debate had proceeded, its importance
had become magnified in his eyes, and he was disposed to
consider it one of the most impotent subjects that had
come before them, since he had had the honour of a seat
in
the House. Ise had been much struck with the able
.tie frank and manly speeches of
the on.
and explicit, o
edthe
Member for Lambeth, en Learned Gentleman the
Ju Ige of the Admiralty Court. The former Hon. Mem-
ber had alluded to the speech of his Noble Friend in 1834,
on the question of the admission of Dissenters to the Uni-
versities, and had endeavoured to fasten upon him some
charge of inconsistency, and a slippin-
g away from his
He might perhaps have
principles. some partiality for
his Noble Friend, but it appeared to him that he
on all occasions stated his opinions with boldness—with a
singleness of purpose, an honesty of conviction, and a
talent which few could compete with. Ile thought, there fore,
if there was any charge to which his Noble Friend might
plead not guilty, it was that of slipping away from his
principles.--(Hear and a laugh.) When the heat of the
present moment was passed away, his Noble Friend would

be done justice to, and it would be admitted that power,
and place, and ambition he had broken as riven bands
when he found himself about to be fettered with declara-
tions on matters of principle connected with religion,
which his heart and conscience disapproved.—( Hear.)
In 1834 his Noble Friend bad said that he would give the
Dissenters the benefit of instruction, but he would not
allow them any there in the management of the Univer-
sities; and he bad stated that the tone which had been
adopted in the Legislature by the Representatives of
the Dissenters, and the avowal of their ultimate
intentions, had since been such as not only to excuse, but
to command the attention of the Church, and would justify
his looking with jealousy on any measure brought in to
forward the views of the Dissenters. What must his
Noble Friend's idea be naturally of the present proposition
of the Government favouring, as it so did, the Dissenters?
Since 1834 the Dissenters had made three separate attacks
upon the Established Church—the first was on the Univer-
sities, the next upon the Church-rate, and now there was
this education plan. Their object had, for sometime, been
to reduce the Church to the level of Dissent. Now they
had changed their course, and were apparently desirous to
elevate Dissent to the level of the Church. The lion.
Member for Lambeth ( Mr. Hawes) had asserted that it
was the object of a really national education to instruct
every sect in its particular creed.
Mr. HAWES explained. What he had said was
that the State was bound to provide general education for
the people; leaving them to find instruction in their
separate religious creeds, from their own teachers.
Sir J. GRA HAM said that was not the view then of
her Majesty's Government.—(Cheers.) The Govern-
ment plan w is, at least in their normal school system, that
religious and general education should be combined.—
( Hear, bear.) As to the Hon. and Learned Judge of the
Admiralty C. (Sir S. Lushington) there could be no
mistake, hoWever ; for he had stated that all sects should
be instructed in their particular creeds at the public
charge.—(" No, no," from Sir S. Lushington.) Car-
tainCy the Hon. and Learned Member had said that reli-
gious and general instruction ought to be combined—
( Hear, hear, from Sir S. Lushington) —that all should be
instructed in the creed they process—(Hear, hear)
at the public cost—(" No, no," from Sir S. Lush-
ingtcn)—not exclusively at the public cost, but with
the public assistance.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if this
view were adopted by the Government, the conclusion
which he (Sir J. Graham) must draw was that there ceased
to be a creed favoured by the State as the national reli-
gion ) The consequence was irresistible.—
( Cheers.) His Hon. Friend the Member for Newark
( Mr. Gladstone) had pressed a question which the Chan-
cellos of the Exchequer had contrived to evade. "If you
apply the aid of the public funds to the instruction of
) outh, how can you refuse it to the teaching of adulis ?
( Hear.) If you endow a Saeinian school, why not a So-
cinian ?—( Hear.) 13 a large parish with a large
population, at a distance from a parish church, much
stronger argument might be urged in favour of a grant to
a Dissenting chapel. 'But what would be the immediate
eff et of this? The moment they admitted their premises,
they must be prepared to admit that, as to the State, all
religion stood upon a footing of perfect equality._
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If they admitted that conclusion
upon -these premises, every thing which they nad been
accustomed most to value would be upset and over-
thrown. The exclusive right of the Spiritual Nara to
it in the House of Lords could on that principle be no
longer defended. The exclusive right of endowments to
Protestant churches—the coronation oath—the endow-
ments to the Universities—the exclusion of Roman Catho-
li Ai from holding the Great Saals, could no longer be de-
fended ; and, •as he con,ended, the fate of this island
• would cease to be Protestant, and for ought he knew the
'legislation of this country would cease to be so also
(11eaa, hear, and cheers.) But he could not find
any prepo4rion in her Majesty's Government, he could
not find there was any limitation to these grants
in favour of Christianity. On the contrary, the positive as-
sertion indeed of the Hon. and Learned Member for the
Tower Hamlets would confirm the supposition that they
even intended to enable the Jesse to teach Judaism.— ( Hear,
hear.) They might go to the teaching of Mahomedanism,
or indeed any other creed without exception, however
wide and extended.—( Cheers.) The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had said that they were late in their opposi
tion, and he asked, if they were to oppose this measure
how could they justify their vote in favour of Maynooth?
He would do so on the repeated statement
of the Right Honourable Gentleman himself:
it was part of a special contract, resting on special cir-
cumstances beFore the Union; the Right lion. Gentleman
then went to the Colonies, and particularly to grants for
Chaplains in New South Wales. In answer to that he
would say, that the larger portion of those grants wore
defrayed by Coloni it funds. At the same time he would
frankly admit that those grants did trench upon the princi-
ple.—( Hear, hear.) As to the grant to Maynooth for a
mixed scheme of education in Irelatu', he thought that had
had signally failed. But Hen. Gentlemen on the other
side of the House took advantage of what
.had been dime,
in that respect, under special circumstances, for Ireland,
and then argued the same thing to be doue again upon
analogous questions with respect to England. In that
argament they ,sunk the specialty of the circumstances,
both as regarded Ireland and the Colonies ; and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer called upon them, if
they did not agree with the measures, to re-
trace - their steps. Now he knew it was ern.
possible for them to retrace their steps ; but if they could
not do that, there was one thing which they could d), and
which lie called upon the House to do, which was to be
cautious how they advanced one single step further. The
Right Hie. Gentleman called upon them to tell the
truth, and to acknowledge that they wished the whole of
the instruction of the Youth to be left to the Clergy of the
Established Church. They never bad wished for any such
thing. lie admitted that the British and FOreign School
Society was certainly inconhstent With that principle, hie
he, was prepared to co one that vote with rigid observance
to the principles on which it was first made.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) It was not a vote strictly for the purpose
,tf education—it wa; only for the building of schools.
and the inspection of the schools, which outlay was to'he
limited according to the expense.s, and there was no in-
terference in that respect on the part of the State, with the
scheme .uf education. In reference, therefore, to that lie had
mulling further to say, than that to advance one step further
in the present state of the controvesy he was not prepared.
Hon. and Learned Memb r for Dublin had attempted to
depreciate the state of public feeling with respect to the
Government plan, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had stated that, the petitions had been obtained by the most
gross delusion, and that the signatures were not numerous.
Had the Ministers felt it to be so ? What was the mean-
ing of their withdrawing the first scheme ? Was it volun-
tary, or was it by compulsion ? Ilowever, that plan was
only withdrawn—the moment the Ministers thought that
the pressure had subsided there was nothing to prevent
them. from carrying the plan into execution within three
months. The Board was an irresponsible tribunal, for they
were to be armed with despotic and arbitrary powers. Su
far from tying down the Crown to particular Societies,
there was a power expressly reserved to the Board to make
advances to any amouct and to any school.--( Question.)
At an earlier part of the evening lie would have trespassed
at greater length than he would now do. But there were
one or two points which bad been raised in the debate to
which be wished to refer. lie was one who did not like
to discuss theological sabjects in that House.—(Divide,
divide.) lie knew there was a great division of opinion on
that subject in that House, and he would be sorry to give
any one pain. It had been said it was the duty of the
State to support and uphold the true religion,
and on that it had been asked " What is truth ?"-
-(Cries of " Divide, divide.) If it was the pleasure of
the House not to•hear him he would sit down, but if he
did not exceed the limits he had laid down for himself, it
was not unreasonable that he should call for their atten-
tion for a few moments. A man was not responsible to his
fellow man for his religious creed—that was a matter be-
tween him and his Maker. He gloried in the name cf
Protestant, and he thought it was the grand prerogative
of one to insist upon the right of private judgment and
the right of private investigation of religious truth. A
man was not answerable to man, and it was presumptuous
for one to call the creed of another false.—( Hear, hear.)
But fig the purpose of the argument, the Government
were bound to maintain the established religion—the
moment that principle was admitted, the public magistrate
was bound to apply the public money to the maintenance
of that religion, and not to be expended in the propagation
of a doctrine, but for a great national object, which Par-
liament had laid down for the peace, happiness, and wel-
fare of the people. That principle was not at all inconsistent
with complete toleration, which was satisfied when each
individual, whether Dissenter or Churchman, was admitted
to all the privileges and capacities of a citizen, without re-
ference to his religious creed. The moment they assisted
a Dissenter from the public funds, it' became inconsistent
with an Establishment. They had already given complete
toleration, even beyond the limit that was due to an Esta-
blishment ; receding from that was impossible ; but it
would be most imprudent to go further, especially after the
views which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had avowed, which
were not denied by the Government, and were supported by
a large body of persons in this country. There
were many who were of opinion that they could
accommodate a middle course by taking from one
place, and leaving out other parts of the Scriptures.
There were those who thought -they could make- a sort of
arbitrament between God and man, but nothing of that
kind could ever succeed. The great evil of the present
day was a thirst for change—a hankering after innovation
—which marked the present superficial generation.—
( Divide, divide.) They ought to proceed with peculiar
caution. Government generally was a matter of compro-
mise, but to compromise religion -was totally impossible.
Ile was for encouraging by private means, to the very ut-
most, a system of education, but be feared it would be found
Very difficult to adopt any system of education upon a
combined plan. It was admitted, that joint education in
Prussia had failed—it was abandoned abroad because it
was irnp-acticable, and they were about to adopt it here
because it was irreligious.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and
" Divide, divide.") His conscientious judgment was, that
this scheme, if adopted, would lead to that conclusion.
The religion of the State was the pillar of the Govern-
ment ; if that pillar was shaken, the form of Government
under which we lived would be destroyed.—(" Hear,
hear," and " Divide, divide.") He had a mast earnest
desire that this proposal, which lie considered dangerous
should now and at once be intercepted by a vote of that
House —(Cheers and cries of " Oh," in the midst of which
an lion. Member called out " Brotberton.") He was
satisfied that the proposition of the Government would had
to results which were inconsistent beth with the temporal
and the spiritual interests of the British public.—( Hear,
hear, and Divide, divide. )
Lord John Russell and Mr. Shea rose together. There
were numerous cries of " Shell, Shell," but the Sneaker
called on—
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who addresed the House as
follows : —Sir, in the course of this debate I have several
tirnss thought it would be my duty to endeavour to vindi-
cate the plan of the Government from the various—the
%rosy num loos misrepresentations and misconstructions
which it has been subjected to in the course of th's debate
..but their very variety and very numb( r deter
see from that task.—( Hear, bear.) I feel that
at this late period of the debate (twelve o'clock)