The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-27 00:00:00

SUPPLY.-NAVY ESTIMATES.

On the ration of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply, when
Sir G. CLERK proposed that 57,5601. 15s. be granted
far tine salaries of officers and contingent expences of the
navy-oface for the current year.
Mr. HUME wished to know what saving had accrued
from the change, a considerable one he had understood, of
two retired Commissioner•.

Sir G. CLERK explained that the Navy Board had
been, by a late regulation, subdivided, but that in conse-
quence of the important duties of the Inspector-General
and Surveyor, which were entirely professional, it was
deemed right to keep the services of other officers which
were deemed indispensable. Care would, however, be
taken that in all future appointments the rank and salary
of these executive professional duties should be less, so as
to have the office tilled by master-shipwrights who could
carry on these inspections and fully perform the requisite
duties.

Mr. MABERLY complained of the amount of the
superannuations, Which he said had increased instead of
diminished. He strongly recommended to Government to
adopt some plan by which its servants might provide for
their own superannuation,.

Mr. HERRIES replied that Government had done so.
Mr. RUNE asked whether all the officers under Go-
vernment were obliged to provide for their own super-

annuation.
Mr. HERRIES--All officers under the Treasury.
Mr. kIABERLY imputed all thew improvemems to

the Finance Committee, which be was sorry had not been
revived.
Mr. HUME objected to the number of useless officers
in the Admiralty-office. One Secretary for the Admiralty
should at least be got rid of. In 1792 the expence of the
three departments, Navy-office, Navy Pay-office, and the
Admiralty was only 52,0001., and in the present year the
charge was 142,0001.
Sir B. MARTIN said that the number of Commissioners
had been diminished since 1792, and that the public busi-
ness had increased.
Sir H. PARNELL wished to know whether it was the
intention of Government to carry into effect the recommen-
dation of the Finance Committee, with respect to the mode
of keeping accounts.
Sir G. CLERK said, that it was necessary to bring in
a Bill for that purpose, and the Bill was in the course of
preparation. He added that the present Accountant-Gene-
ral of the Navy-office introduced, in lieu of the old system,
a very improved system of accounts upon the basis of the
double entry.
Mr. G. DAWSON defended the conduct of the Trea-
sury in adopting the system recommended by Messrs.
Brooksbank and Belts, and rejecting that which was re-
commended by the other Commissioner, Mr. Abbott. It
was for the Treasury to determine between the two plans,
and they adopted, upon mature consideration that which
they considered the best.
Sir H. PARNELL said, it was plain that the Treasury,
in this instance, had acted with too much haste. They
should have let the merits of the two systems be tried
before they adopted one in preference to the other. They
showed too great haste in rejecting the system which in-
eluded the journal.
Mr. BERRIES said the Government had no interest
in the matter further than to select the system of keeping
accounts which they deemed to be best, and that they had
done in selecting the system recommended by Messrs.
Brooksbauk and Belts. He (Mr. Herries) conceived the
Treasury had been perfectly right in choosing that system.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS observed, that a great im-
provement had been introduced by the Treasury within
the last three years in the system of keeping accounts in
the Navy and other public offices.
Mr. MABERLY said, there was no system at all in
keeping the accounts in the public offices. The universal
system of keeping accounts throughout the commercial
world,—the system adopted in France,—throughout Eu-
rope,—by the East India Company,—and by all merchants,
—should have been preferred by the Government to the
fanciful system of Messrs Brookshank and Belts.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, when
_ _

the two systems were hid before him, he bad no hesitation

in giving the preference to the system recommended by
Messrs. Brooksbank and Belts ; it had been in operation
in all the public offices since the l st of January, and he was
confident that at the close of the year the experiment as to
its superior merits would prove most satisfactory.
Sir J. NVROTTESLEY maintained, that in any depart-
ment where, in the system of keeping accounts, the journal
was excluded, the proper and necessary check could not
exist. Any private commercial establishment would be
ruined in six months unless a journal was kept.
Mr. HUME argued to the same effect.
The resolution was then put and agreed to.
The next resolution was for a sum of 38,2071. to defray
the salaries of officers and other contingencies of the vie-

tualling-office.
Mr. HUME contended, that this was an unnecessary
and expensive office. The Government should do every
thing in this way by contract, as was the case in the army.
If the Victualling Board was to be kept up, one individual
was sufficient to manage it.

In reply to a question from Mr. MABERLY, complain-
ing of the increase of some superannuation allowances,
Sir 0. CLERK said that it arose in the following man-
ner :—The clerks on entering the different offices con-
nected with the navy were distributed among them accord-
ing as they belonged to the inferior or the superior
departments. If they belonged to the inferior department,
they received for the first three years only 90/. a year. For
every year they served afterwards, they received an addi-
tion of I@/. till they reached the maximum allowance of
3001. a year. Thus a clerk must have served twenty-three
years before he could obtain 300/. a year in the inferior
departments. A similar course was observed in the supe-
rior departments, where the maximum salary was about
500/. a year. The salaries were placed upon this footing
in the year 1816, at which time the clerks appeared to the
House to be underpaid. The remuneration which they
now received was not greater than their merits. He con-

tended that the whole of this Board could not be given
up, even supposing that the Victualling Board were
in all cases bound to contract for stores and provisions. It
would still be wanting to superintend the distribution of
stores at the different ports. He likewise pointed out the
advantage of the establishment at Deptford in lowering the
tenders of the contractors, and stated that it had been

round particularly useful in the years 1825 and 1826.

Sir J. WROTTESLEY said, that a large capital had
been expended in building mills and purchasing corn for
the Government. He thought that, upon principle, such
things could be best done by contract. If the contracts
were improperly executed, had they not inspectors of con-
tracts to compel their proper execution ? If those in-
spectors passed bad flour, and that flour were afterwards
complained of by the naval officers to whom it was de-
livered, had not the Government the means of reprimand.
ing and dismissing such inspectors ? Letting these matters,
however, pass for the present, he would ask the Hon.
Baronet to inform him whether a regular mercantile book
was kept on behalf of the Government, containing an ac-
count of the corn bought, the labour employed, and the
flour delivered in his lklajesty's yards ? and whether to
that account a per centage was added for the capital em-
ployed ?
Sir G. CLERK replied, that there was an exact debtor
and creditor account kept of the corn bought and the flour
manufactured, together with an account of the salary paid
to the master, and all other contingent expences.
Mr. HUAIE again contended that the Government
ought to contract for the provisions of the navy. The
ships of the East India Company were supplied by con-
tract, and whenever any of the provisions so supplied were
found of inferior quality, the contractors were called upon
to make the deficiency good. It was impossible for Go-
vernment to manufacture flour as cheaply at Deptford as
individuals could procure it at present in the south of Ire-
land. That establishment was kept up as a mere pretext,
and he was of opinion, that if due economy were used, this
victualling department might be reduced at least 50,000/.
or 60,0001.

Mr. MABERLY was of opinion that though meal might
be an exception to the general rule, the present mode of
supplying salt meat to the navy was at once unnecessary,
useless, and expensive. He bad no doubt that all the
manufacturing accounts of Government were losing ac-
counts. The Hon. Secretary at War had argued some
time ago that we ought to keep up a manufactory for
swords and cuirasses. He was certain that if the Hon.
Secretary were to go into the market, he could purchase
them at half the price which he was paying for their ma-
nufacture.—The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was a grant of 137,4601. for
the purpose of defraying the expence of the salaries of
officers in the dock-yards at home.
Mr. HUME complained of the extravagant amount of
this vote. Some years ago it was not more than 25,0001.,
now it was upwards of 130,0001. He then objected to a
charge of 724/. in the Deptford yard for rent and taxes
paid to soma officer of the Transport Board. Now he
thought that we had premises enough at Deptford, with..
out going to the expence of hiring a house for any officer.
Sir G. CLERK gave an explanation of this item, which
was not distinctly audible in the gallery.
Mr. MABERLY wished to know whether they were
to expect any large reduction in these yards as to materials
and to artificers. If he understood the evidence of Mr,
Barrow rightly, we should not require to have any more
ships of the line built after the year 1830, and the yards
would not be wanted, except to put down sense large fri-
gates to meet those which had been lately built by America
and France. We had now 350 ships, a larger number
than we could man within any short period after the com-
mencement of a war. Could we, therefore, be justified
in keeping up our enormous establishment for shipbuild-
ing for ever ? From the evidence given by Mr. Barrow
he thought that a very large saving indeed might be
effected in this department, which had been as slovenly
managed as any public department with which he was ac-
quainted. From the conclusion of the war in 1815, the
Admiralty had let the expence of this department go on
without examination until the year 1821. Then they
found out that a reduction of 60,000/. might be made in
it ; but that beneficial discovery was not carried into effect
till 1822. A Gallant Admiral, for whom he felt sincere
respect, had clearly intimated to the Finance Committee
that lie did not think that the Admiralty had done all
which they could do in seducing the expenditure of this
department, and had expressed an opinion that the Finance
Committee should strengthen the hands of the Admiralty,
by givinc, an opinion to that effect. He was certain that
if the Gallant Admiral would apply himself to the exa-
mination of the different details of this vote, he would be
able to make a large reduction in this head of expenditure,
Sir G. COCKBURN complained that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Abingdon had misrepresented, though he believed
very unintentionally, his evidence before the Finance Com-
mittee. He had said, that we had now a certain number
of ships of the line, and that by 1830 all of these would

be in a complete state. In stating that, lie by no means
meant to assert that all our naval force would by that time
be complete : for it happened, that we were at present
short of frigates. Besides, though we had 350 ships on
the list, they were not all in an efficient state. We must
keep up our naval establishment to a certain amount, in
reference to the amount of other nations. He did not
think that the Hon. Member for Montrose wished to put
down the dock-yards entirely. He had himself long been
of opinion that the expense of the dock yards might be re-
duced ; indeed, he had been busily employed in securing
their reduction. A proof of it might be seen in the single
I,:ct, that Government had lately reduced' 500 salaried
officers in the dock-yards, whose salaries amounted to
nearly 100,0001. a year, without at all injuring the tffi-
ciency of the yards. The state of those yards at present
by no means answered the description of them at the time
when Mr. Barrow gave his evidence. Many reductions
had been made since that time, and more were in progress.
We had recently completed a new system of frigates, and
had reduced this year 120,0001. in the wages, &e., of the
yards. There was only one point on which he had wished
to strengthen the hands of the Admiralty with greater
power. He had told the Committee that it was doubtful
to many—it had never been doubtful to him—whether it
was proper to discharge from the dock-yards in time of
peace those shipwrights whose services we had employed
when they were so much wanted during the war. During
the present year the Admiralty had taken a very strong mea-
sure for the better regulation of these artificers. Formerly in
the dock-yards every one was allowed to take as many
chips away as he could carry. The consequence was that
half the time of the workmen was spent in making chips.
Now the Admiralty had come to the resolution of giving
them an allowance in money instead of this permission,
which necessarily led to much waste. Besides a reduc-
tion of expense in this department might be expected in
the ordinary course of nature. The old shipwrights
would every day be dying off, and it was not intended to
take new ones in their places. Our dock-yard establish-
ment, even as at present constituted, was lower than it was
in 1803, when Earl St. Vincent reduced it, as some
thought, below its proper standard.
Mr. HUME said, that he was glad to hear that we had
now, in the 15th year of peace, made those reductions
which ought to have been made immediately on the termi-
nation of the war. It was however a severe reflection
upon preceding administrations that they had not been
made sooner. He wished to know whether there was to

be any reduction in the scale of allowances paid to certain
officers in the dock-yard at Plymouth, whose rank and
emoluments he enumerated at some length.

Sir G. CLERK said that no alteration would be made
in the scale of those allowances. Some of the offices
would be abolished, but the salaries of those which re-
mained would continue unaltered.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following resolutions were also agreed to :
£458,720 for the wages of artificers and labourers em-
ployed in the King's yards at home.
£680,000 for timber and other materials.
£75,000 for piloting and contingent expences.
Mr. HUME asked whether it was the intention of Go-
verninent to revise the bounty on slaves.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
although this country was subject to great expense, in
order to suppress the slave trade, he thought it would be
unwise to abandon it suddenly. The subject, however,
was under the consideration of Government.

The following items were also voted without opposition
£66,494 for the salaries of officers and contingent ex-
penses of foreign yards.
£61,038 for the salaries of officers and contingent ex-
peroe• of the victualling-yards.
The next vote proposed was for 64,0261. 6s. 7d. to de-
fray the experiees of the salaries of Officers on the Naval
Medical Establishment for 1830.

The following vote was for 8451. Ss. 3d., to defray the
salaries and expences of the Officers of the Naval College,
and the School for Naval Architecture, for 1830.

Mr. HUME approved of this vote. He was glad to
find that the young men now paid for their education.
Formerly this establishment stood the country in 3,2451.
a-year, and it was now reduced to 8451. He thought
that the Military College ought to be placed en the same
footing.
The next vote was for 105,0001., to defray the salaries
and allowances of the Officers and men on board vessels in
ordinary for 1830.
The next rote was for 27,8701., for defraying the ex-
pence of the packet-service in 1830.
Sir G. CLERK, in moving for a sum of 854,0001. for
defraying the half-pay of naval officers, observed that a re-
gulation had lately been made, by which promotion in the
navy would be retarded, and by that means a great saving
would he effected under this head.

Mr. HUME said that the regulation alluded to must be
of very recent date, for he understood that two promotions
had lately been granted at Plymouth, by the Flag Officer,
Lord Northesk.

Sir G. COCKBURN observed, that the Noble Lord at
the head of the Admiralty thought it was but fair towards
those individuals to grant them that promotion which they
had expected far three years.
The next vote was for 296,0631. for superannuations
and pensions to naval officers.
Mr. STANLEY observed a superannuation allowance
of 5001. to 4661. to Mr. W. Shield, and in the next page
5001. to another individual, who had acted as commissioners.
He wished for some explanation.
Sir G. CLERK answered, that both these parties bad
served for a long time—the one at Plymouth, the other
at Woolwich and Chatham. Their superannuation allow-
ance was calculated on the time they had served, and the
salary they had received in their civil office. One of them,
Mr. Shield, was upwards of 70 years of age, and had been
for a long period in the service. His superannuation '
allowance amounted to 4661.; or about 255. day.
Mr. HUME said, nothing could be more preposterous
than that an officer, living in a dock-yard, and possessing
every comfort, should receive a salary of greater amount
than if he were employed in serving his country abroad.
Sir BYAM MARTIN said, this individual received
his superannuation allowance under an Act of Parlia-
ment—his half-pay was granted for 40 years' service.
Sir G. COCKBURN observed, that it was not correct
to say that those individuals got double what they would
have done bad they continued actively employed in the
Navy. Had they remained in the naval service, they
would now have been Admirals, with much larger allow..
ances. Mr. Shield was 40 years in the naval service be_
fore he entered the civil service, in which be had ken 20
years, and he was now nearly 70 years of age.
The next vote was the sum of 1,500/., to defray the
salaries of chaplains in the naval service.
The next vote was 270,0001. towards defraying the
expense of the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital.
Mr. J. E. DENISON complained that, by the existing
act of Parliament, a marine, who entered the service at 20
years of age,was entitled to claim his discharge and pension
after he had served 21 years. Thus a perfectly healthy
man of 41 might claim a salary of 18/., 251., 261., or
27/., according to circumstances. When such a man
returned to his native village, he found his old companions
scarcely receiving for their laborious exertions as large an
income as his retired allowance.

Sir G. COCKBURN said the pensions were under con-
sideration. Some alteration would probably take place in

ie act of Parliament to which the Hon. Member had

alluded.

The next vote proposed was for the sum of 174,5541. 9i. 4d.
to defray the superannuations granted to commhsion2rs,
clerks, &c. formerly employed in the civil departments of
the navy. . . .

Sir R. HERON said he hoped that, in proposing the
motion of which he had given notice, he would not be
deemed trespassing improperly or unnecessarily on the
time of the House, while he made a few observations. In
the first place, he would say, it was not his fault that the
motion had not been brought forward at an earlier period.
He had given many successive notices of the motion be
meant to propose; but circumstances prevented him from
introducing it sooner. He considered the proposition
which he was about to submit to the committee as one of
very considerable importance; but he feared that its im-
portance would not be increased, in consequence of the
subject being taken up by so humble an individual as him-
self. He observed in the estimate which they were now
called on to vote, lie saw the names of two indivi-
dividuals, the Honourable R. Dundas, and the Honour-
able W. L. B ithurst, to the former of whom was granted
a pension of 500/., and to the latter a pension of
4001., making a total charge of 9001. on the country.
This charge he wished to have disallowed by the House.
The former of those gentleman was a reduced commis-
sioner of the navy, the latter was a reduced commis-
sioner in the victualling department. The column in
which the time of service was usually marked was in
those two instances left blank, and he concluded that this
gave a very proper description of the services of those
gentlemen—(Laughter)—tor essential they certainly were
not.—(Hear, and laughter.)—These situations appeared
to have been created purposely for the parties; it was
shortly after found necessary to abolish them; and then
these pensions were created. They had heard much of the
constant assiduity and labour which Ministers showed in
considering what places and pensions should he abolished,
without detriment to the public service. Now, he, for
one, acknowledged that he was somewhat astonished,
when he found that the amount of eaving effected by all

this anxiety was a little more than 1,000,000/. of money;
and he must say that he thought the case desperate when
he saw these pensions granted in the last }ear. -In speak-
ing of those pensions he knew very well that the sum of
9001. was a mere trifle in the expenditure of the country.
But a grant, though small in amount, might be mon-
strous in principle.—(Hear, hear.).—To those young gen-
tlemen he imputed no blame ; the blame must fall on the
_Ministers, and on two of them particularly--he meant
the fathers of those individeals.—(Hear, bear.)—lt was
well known that the two lathers were noblemen, who,
for a great number of years, occupied, with little inter-
mission, some of the most important situations in the
Government. Viscount Melville, at the present moment,
presided as First Lord of the Admiralty, and Earl
Bathurst was now Lord President of the Council, one of
the Tellers of the Exchequer, and joint Cletk of the Crown.
—(Hear, hear.)--Their grandfathers were also men of
high consideration. One of them for many years filled
the situation of Lord High Chancellor of England, and the
other was a sort of Viceroy of Scotland, holding places
which produced great emoluments, and performing services
which were rather equivocal.—(Hear,and laughter. )—Now
that these gentlemen, gorged with the public money,
should require for their families, or even condescend to ac-
cept, such miserable pensions—( Hear, hear)—and that,
too, in a time of public distress, did appear to him, and
he would not shrink from expressing his opinion, neither
would he state it more harshly than the case required, but
it did appear to him to be paltry.—(Hear, hear.)--
Though, abstractedly considered, these pensions might
seem small, yet they might be viewed as very large when
they were compared with the remuneration of a vast num-
ber of persons whose services had been most brilliant, and
whose exertions had added to the greatness of the country.
He would take the liberty of naming one or two of those
individuals, and he had not the least hesitation in naming
them, for these were men who could not be mentioned
without awakening recollections of national glory, and ex-
citing feelings of admiration and gratitude. There were
Admiral Bowen and Admiral Barlow—the one 40 years,
the other somewhat less than 20, in the civil service of
the navy—the former had a pension of 8001., the latter a
pension of 430/. per annum. It was true, indeed, that
Admiral Barlow had his half-pay in addition to his pension
of 450/. To Mr. Dundas a pension of 5001. was granted,
but be believed that he held the situation of Commissioner
for a very short time ; and during the time he held it, if
he mistook not, that gentleman was engaged on two diplo-
matic missions.--(" No, no," from the Ministerial
benches )—He was employed at least on one ; but if he re-
collected accurately, he had gone to St. Petersburgh with
the Duke of Devonshire, on one mission, and with Lord
Heytesbury on another. He would next call the attention
of the House to that meritorious officer, Sir T. Foley,
who had his half-pay of '7501, and Sir Thomas Hardy,
the Captain of the great Nelson, who had 4501. per an-
num.—(Hear, hear.)—These were men who had served
their country in every climate, and who had asserted her
honour in many a bloody action.—(Hear, hear.)—The
places given to Mr. Dundas and to Mr. Bathurst were
places held during pleasure. It was, therefore, perfectly
in the power of his Majesty's Ministers to dismiss them
with or without pension, according to the service which
they had performed. But what must the people think of
the professions made by Ministers when pensions like these
were granted—pensions that were without precedent—
pensions for which no adequate service had been rendered ?
—(Hear, hear.)—Now, he would ask, on what ground
was it possible that these pensions could have been given ?
Could the act be defended on the ground of custom ? He
believed not ; but even if it could, he was not aware of
any abuse in existence that might not be defended, cer-
tainly not justified, on that ground. He would ask whet
was the use of talking of an alleviation of the sufferings of
the people, when pensions such as these were al-
lowed ? These individuals were first improperly placed
in these situations, and, when they were removed from
them, they were with equal impropriety pensioned on the
country. By such a system, a number of persons
belonging to that noble profession the navy, who had infi-
nitely higher claims to office, and were at least equally cal-
culated to act in office, were excluded from beneficial em-
ployment. For he would say, that no young men were
better educated, for all useful purposes, than those who
entered the navy now were--(Hear.) He really hoped
and trusted that the Members of that House would, this
night, by their vote, put an end to such a lavish and im-
proper use of the public money. He trusted, that in this
case at least, they would chew some fellow-feeling for their
constituents, and prove that they were anxious to repre-
sent their wishes and to relieve their wants. He would
say nothing farther on the subject, except by repeating his
opinion, and it was a strong one,—that the grant and ex-
istence of these pensions were highly improper, and that
the conduct of those who acquired them for their families
who had no just claim on the public, and who could not
possibly want them, was such as he could not denominate
otherwise than as paltry.—(Hear, bear.) In his mind,
also, ministers, in allowing grants of this nature, were

guilty of a mockery of the public distress.—(llear, hear.)
He then moved, " That the proposed grant of 174,584/.
9s. 4d. should be reduced by deducting from it the sum of
900/."
The question having been put,—
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
to assure the Hon. Baronet that he was not one of those
who imputed blame to him for the delay that had taken
place in bringing on the present discussion—he was aware
that the delay had been occasioned by an unwillingness to
impede the public service by interposing unnecessary ob-
stacles to the progress of the estimates. He felt anxious
to address the Committee on this particular subject, because
he thought the Hon. Baronet laboured under an erroneous
impression, in which, in all probability, other Hon.
Members participated, as to the conduct of the Trea-
sury in giving its sanction to this vote being submitted
to Parliament. He thought he should best satisfy
the Committee by stating the circumstances of the case,
and the grounds on which the Treasury had proceeded
in this particular instance, laying aside, as he intended
to do, much of the extraneous matter which the Hon. Ba-
ronet had introduced in the course of his speech.—(Cries
of " No," and laughter.)—He said " extraneous," because
he did not conceive it to be his duty, in considering cases
of superannuation such as the present, to examine whether
the ancestor of an individual had been Lord High Chan-
cellor of England, or had held a high office in Scotland ;
it Was not his duty to decide the case by the pedigree of
an individual.—(Hear.)—The Treasury had dealt with
the case by a reference to considerations which would have
applied equally to the lowest or the highest person in the
King's dominions, and he was not conscious of any error
in this. The present discussion arose from a considerable
reduction which Government thought it their duty to
make in the civil department of the navy. Two Com-
missioners of the Navy Board, and one Commissioner of
the Victualling Department, had been reduced. It ap-
peared proper to select the two persons in question for re-
duction ; one of the gentlemen, who was a Commissioner
of. the Navy Board, was appointed to an office then vacant,
consequently the charge of his salary as a Commissioner
was extinguished without deduction on account of allow-
ance. There remained the other two Commissioners whose
names had been introduced on this occasion to be dealt
with, and their cases were brought before the Treasury.
As to the precise nature of the services of these indi-
viduals, he was not prepared to answer.—(" Hear," from
the Opposition. )—He thought it rather unfortunate
that the length of their services bad not been stated in
the estimate, but he believes that their services was of
about four years' duration, the appointments having
taken place in 1825. In considering these cases,
the Treasury felt bound to adhere to the principle
on which, upon the reduction of Boards at former
times, officers had received allowances. Here he might
observe, that offices of this description, although technically
speaking held during pleasure, were always considered as
granted for the life of the party, or during good behaviour.
The reductions in the members of the Revenue Board had
been considered on the same ground as the present, and
they proceeded on the principle of effecting a considerable
saving in the public expenditure by the removal from office
of several persons, who, be it remembered, had embarked
in their several employments with the idea that their si-
tuations were to be permanent.--(Hear, hear.)—The
Treasury was the more disposed to adopt this view of the
case, because persona embarking in such offices frequently
abandoned some profession which they had previously em-
braced, and lost those opportunities of advancement which
they would otherwise have had in their several professions. '
These two gentlemen were precisely in that situation. Mr.
Bathurst, although called by the lion. Baronet a very
young gentleman, had been a considerable time at the bar.

—(Laughter.)—he really did not sea what there was to
attract Hon. Gentlemen's laughter in the circumstance of
a gentleman pursuing an honourable pr-)fession. It might
appear ridiculous to some Hon. Members ; but to him it
seemed an honourable path for a man to pursue, whatever
night be hiA rank in life.—(Hear.)—Mr. Bathurst and
Mr. Dundas, who had both embarked in different profes-
sions, abandoned them on being put into the situations of
Commissioners of the Navy, and the principle of compen-
sation and allowances, when reduced, applied perfectly to
them. The Commissioners who were appointed several
years ago to inquire into several of our public establish-
ments, with a view to reduction, recommended an allow-
anee of two-thirds of the usual salary, where the service had
been for a less period than 20 years, and three-fourths where
the period of service extended to wore than that time. In

looking at other easel, of reduction, where it was recom- pointed to the first civil situations which should fall vasoi
mended to abolish inferior offices, and where allowances of in the naval department.
an inferior rate were granted, it appeared that persons ' Mr. H. DUNDAS (as we were told) sal, that he
holding subordinate offices in the customs for a less should not have intruded himself upon the Ho but Of
period than ten years were to have half their salary, and the unnecesary personality in which the Hon. Bur et wile
those who had served longer were to have toss,-thirds. brought forward the subject had thought groper to 10'
Now the Tree:tie/ in dealing with the present cases did 1 indulge.—(Cries of " No, no.")—No ! Why the' Hoe.
it4ii
-not avail itself of the rule laid down with respect to corn- i Baronet had described the gentleman to whom be alluded
missioners and high officers removed from the public ser- !as the son of a Noble Lord who held office, and as the,
vice, but looked to the lowest scale that applied to cub- ' grandson of another Noble Lord whom he called a sort 0'
ordinate offices. Besides, it was insisted that the Admi- Viceroy of Scotland, of somewhat equivocal servicea
ratty should appoint these two gentlemen (who had been New it was impossible to mistake the allusion which the
so reduced) to offices as they became vacant, in order to Hon. Baronet intended to convey by the words " equivo-
relieve the country from the charge of their allowances.— cal services ;" but he thought he might confidently Appel,'
(Hear.)—lf the Treasury were to be guided by the rule to the result of the circumstances to which the Hon. Ifs'
antecedently adopted, it should not decide differently in ronet alluded, as a complete answer to the calumny,'
different cases, according to the rank of the parties, and (Hear, bear.)—ln describing the Noble Lord—for whose
it was fully justified in submitting the present vote to the memory he could not but feel the deepest respect—as lisir-
Committee. Let him advert to one circumstance which ing been a viceroy in Scotland, the Hon. Baronet had cell
at least showed that there was no wish to benefit particular given him an occasion to say, that he was proud of such
individuals in the present instance; but the object was to an ancestor. The support which that Noble Lord re'
effect a saving in the public expenditure. What would ceived from the people of Scotland during his lifetime
have been more easy than to have made this arrangement and the monument which had been raised to his memory
on the footing of former arrangements of a similar nature, in that country since his death, were sufficient proofs of
and taking as objects of reduction persons who had served the estimation in which his noble ancestor was held in
longer than these individuals, to have granted a larger Scotland.—(Hear, hear.)
allowance to them, and to have still retained these two gen- Mr. MABERLY said, that this question had been
tlemen as commissioners at their full salaries. This was on argued as though the vote were one of course, whereas it
the supposition that the Treasury was inclined to do what was clearly subject to the determination of the House.
was incorrect. But it had acted differently, and solely Sir R. HERON and Mr. Puce rose together, but the
with a view to public advantage.—(Hear.)—ln the other latter gave way.
case Ministers would have imposed a heavier charge upon Sir R. HERON, in explanation, begged to say, that
the public, but the present course showed that they had a when he called the late Lord Melville, a sort of Viceroy of
bona
_fide intention to advance the public service, and pay Scotland, he alluded to an office and to duties which 00
the utmost attention to principles of economy.—(Hear, longer existed. As to the expression " equivocal set-
hear.)—He had stated the history of the transactions, and vices," lie could assure the Hon. Member (Mr. H. Dun'
trusted the House would consider it on the same principle das) he had no intention of hinting at the circumstance.
as any other similar case. If gentlemen had the fortune to which the Hon. Member had alluded. Indeed, that
or misfortune to be born of honourable families,—if their circumstance never once entered his mind.—(Hear.)
ancestors had distinguished themselves in the service of the But his meaning was, that the late Lord Melville, belong'
public, lie confessed be could not see either in the cir- ing to a particular party, his services were, however sr-
cumstances of their families or of the service of their an- proved by that party, equivocal. .
cestors, any thing to disentitle those gentlemen to the fair Mr. PEEL said, he was glad he had given way to the
consideration which the House would be prepared to afford Hon. Baronet, whose explanation, he was sure, must be
in another case. satisfactory to the Hon. Gent. who had expressed himself
Sir G. CLERK observed that whatever blame was im- on the subject with a degree of warmth that the circume
putable on the ground of the omission of the length of stances undoubtedly justified. The Hon. Member (Mr.
service of Mr. Dundas and Mr. Bathurst in the estimate Hobhouse) was mistaken in supposing that he disapproved
attached to him. It was intended that the period of these of the proposition ; but he could assure that Hon. Member
gentlemen's service should appear, and the Hon. Comp_ that be was not insensible to the value of that independent
support which, the Hon. Member truly said, the present
troller of the Navy had brought him a copy filled up
with these itetes, but, owing to a mistake of his own, a Government had received. Most sorry should he be to lose
rough copy in which they were omitted had been brought such support; and never, to the latest day of his existence,
down. could be forget the conduct pursued by the gentlemen oil
the other side of the House on the great measure of lot
session. The manner in which, the gentlemen opposite
gave their support to the Government at that time could
never be forgotten by him ; and he thought that the cone
duct pursued by those gentlemen on that occasion reflected
the highest credit on the political parties of this country.
With respect to the present proposition, he agreed witlt,
the Hon. Member who spoke last, as to the nature 0'
it. It was only a proposition made by the Government,
which the House would reject or allow as it thought
fit. It was a mere estimate, which, if the House thought,
improper, it would be its duty to reject. He begged 0'
lion. Members, however, to consider what the real us'
ture of the proposition was, before they came to a decision
on it. It was a proposition which arose out of a revisioa
of the establishments of the country which the. Govern"
ment had thought it their duty to make. The course
which had been pursued in this case by his Majesty's Ali-,
nisters, had been to take away the youngest officers, an',
instead of a salary of 1,0001. to give them 4501., until
some other employment offered for them. But the aneht
question was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers ilt
the measure, and he would read to the Committee the of-
ficial correspondence which bad taken place respecting it.
—(The Right Hon. Gentleman here read the lettersaihich
passed between the Admiralty and the Treasnry, and the
minute of the latter.)—These allowances were in confor-
mity to the rule of former Governments; they were not
the result of any special rule of the existing Governments
nor any job. This was the material point of the question
—it was a positive hardship on the-sons of Cabinet Mi-
nisters. The Committee would allow he had not attempts
to bias its opinion by any appeal to the passions ; but be
must say, that considering the difficulties attending the
making reductions, it was not quite right to embarrass
the Government when they attempted to effect them. lie
hoped he had said enough to convince the House that his
Majesty's Ministers had not been influenced by any corrupt
motive in this transaction.
Lord ALTHORP observed, that the House had a right
to investigate all the circumstances of these pensions,
which, in his opinion, ought not to be granted.
Thee question was now loudly called for ; and the Cols-
mittee divided, when there appeared— '
For the amendment
Against it s 121

Mr. C. WOOD was of opinion that the transaction in
question was blameable, but, at the same time, thought
that the fault did not attach to any particular Member of
the Cabinet, but to Ministers generally, for sanctioning a
vote which involved a most extraordinary principle of
superannuations and allowances. Although it did not
appear on the estimates what had been the length of service
of these two gentlemen, it was stated that it did not ex-
ceed four years. Was that, he asked, a fair period of
service for which to grant an allowance? This was to
extend the terms of the Act of Parliament under which
superannuations were granted, and involved an unjustifi-
able departure from its principles. It had been said that
these gentlemen had given up professions and embarked in
these offices for life, to the exclusion of other prospects.
Unfortunately, however, for this statement, we found one
of the gentlemen, subsequently to his appointment as Com-
missioner, accepting a diplomatic situation—(Hear, and
cries of " No")—at least he gave up his office, and ac-
cepted a situation in a diplomatic mission, and now he was
to be compensated for the loss of an office to which he
could not be fairly said to devote his time, having been put
into another situation.—(Hear, hear.)—When he looked
at the enormous amount of superannuations, lie thought
we should not be justified if we did not mark by our vote
the utmost reprobation of this transaction which we could.
Colonel SIBTFIORP had heard with astonishment the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
charge the Hon. Baronet with introducing extraneous
matter into his statement. Never was there a more plain
unvarnished tale than that of the Hon. Baronet. On the
contrary, the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement was full
of extraneous matter. The Right Hon. Gentleman said
he would be extremely glad that the case of the highest
and the lowest individual should be considered on the same
footing, simply in reference to the circumstances of it. He
(Colonel Sibthorp) hoped it always would be so. But pen-
sions and allowances ought to be granted for public services
and casualties, and what could we say when we found
pensions of 4001. and 500/. granted to individuals, for
what ?—for doing nothing at all.—(Heat. )__The Hon.
Member proceeded to say, he had submitted a memorial of
the strongest nature to the Government with respect to an
individual of uuimpeached character, who was 84 years of
age, and had served thirty years in the army, applying for
an addition of a paltry sixpence a-day to the allowance of
this highly respectable individual, and what answer did he
receive ? That no additional grant could be afforded.
And why ? Because this person had been worn out in the
public service.—(Hear.)—Here were two Hon. Gentle•
men of noble descent, the sons of Members of a Ministerial
party, and they got 9001. a year for haring done nothing.
By the way, if they had not been sons of Ministers, per-
haps they would not have obtained their allowances quite so
readily. The Hon. Member went on to read the memorial
of Serjeant Duncan Macdonald (already alluded to). It
stated that the petitioner was an out-pensioner of Chelsea
Hospital; that he had been 17 years in the 66th Regi-
ment of Foot, and had served five years in the West Indies;
and that he was 13 years drill serjeant of the South Lin-
colnshire militia.—(Laughter.)—Gentlemen might laugh
at this mention of an old Constitutional force, which it
was the fashion to treat with contempt in that House,
notwithstanding we might one day want it. The Hon.
and Gallant Member again referred to the memorial, which
stated that memorialist was 84 years of age, and in a state
of blindness, and prayed for some further allowance. The
Hon. Member then read the answer to the memorial, in
which it was stated, that the petitioner had been discharged
in consequence of being worn out in the service, and not
for the disabilities of which he now complained; and on
this ground, that he was not entitled to an increase of al-
lowance, having received his full share at the period of his
discharge. Here was an individual worn out, after a ser-
vice, not of four, but of seventeen years, and yet he was
refused an addition of sixpence a day, while Ihese gentle•
men had 900/. a year between them. ye felt that he was
discharging his duty in what he was saying, and, while he
was assured of that, the smiles or the frowns of the
House were alike indifferent to him.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE said, that whatever opinions might
be entertained in the House upon this subject, there was
but one opinion upon it out of doors. It might be unfor-
tunate that tho period of there gentlemen's services was
omitted : it might be unfortunate that they were the sons
of Cabinet Ministers ; it might be unfortunate that they
held other places ; but of this he was quite sure,—namely,
that all these unfortunate circumstances made it very un-
fortunate that the country should be so governed. It was
quite impossible that these appointments could be defended ;
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not defended them ;
the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel) would not defend
them. Indeed, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was speaking, he thought he saw upon the cheek of the
Right Hon. Secretary something like the blush of shame,
which seemed to say, " A profligate case has happened
once, but it shall not happen again : erubuit—salva res est.
He thought it very creditable to the Right Hon. Secretary
that he•had not risen to defend this proposition. He knew
nothing of these gentlemen personally, and be did not deal
with the question personally; but he could help seeing
that one of them held a place of 1,0001. a year, and that
the same gentleman had held another situation—that of
Commissioner of Bankrupts. He did not mean to say
that there was any intention to create in this country what
were formerly called in France " Ministerial families;"
but lie begged to ask, what the public would think when
they found that inin were placed on a level with persons
who had performed great public services, merely because
they happened to be sprung from certain ancestors. Such
a system would and must discourage the servants of the
public. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them
that they Lad laughed because they had found a scion of a
noble house taking up an honourable profession. But they
had not laughed at that, nor had they laughed at a noble
scion abandoning that profession. What they had laughed
at, and what the country would laugh at, if these votes
were passed, was, that noble scions who could not get
briefs at the bar, managed to get themselves on the pension
list.v
e r n Heso t
before would
receivedven u r e
s 0
00
panpoyrtGos-s
mmoychthaintdenpe
must cease when it was found that the pension lists were
the present Government had received ; but that support
filled with the sons of the colleagues of the Right Hon.
Gentlemen opposite. evnerdeihitadsu

Majority against Ministers
The announcement was received with loud Cheers.
On our return to the gallery the Committee were dis-
cussing the next item—namely, 99,000/. for the works of
the dock-yards.
A conversation took place between Mr. Hume, Sir G.
Clerk, Sir G. Cockburn, Sir M. W. Ridley, Mr. Bright,
and Mr. Moberly, but the noise presented us from hear-
ing its object.
Mr. MARERLY, as we understood, intimated his in•
tention of opposing, hereafter, the grant of 23,457/. for
building a naval hospital at Malta.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. R. Gordon,
Mr. Croker, Mr. Bright, and the Chancellor of the Ex•
chequer, the vote was postponed.
Sir J. GRAHAM took that opportunity to give notice
that he should move for the abolition of the office of Lieu-
tenant-General of the Ordnance when the ordnance esti•
mates should be regularly brought before them.
The House then resumed, Sir A. GRANT reported pro-
gress, and the report was ordered to be received on Mon-
day next.

On the motion of Mr. MABERLY, were ordered copier
of correspondence relative to the naval hospital at Malta.
The other Orders of the Day were subsequently disposed
of, and the House adjourned at One o'clock.

r OF THE MINO
NHO VOTED (ON THE
IN WOE ♦ COMMITTER

LIS
OF SEVENTY-EIGHT, '
P. THOMSON'S MOTH
STATE OF TAXATION.
Anson, Hon. G. Grant, Rt. Hon. C.
Benett, John Grant, R.
Bernal, R. Guise, Sir W.
Bentinck, Lord G. Howick, Lord
Burdett, Sir F. Hume, Joseph
Blandford, Marquis Hobhouse, J, _C
Birch, J. Honywood, W. P.
Byng, George Huskisson, Rt. Hon.l
Baring, F. W.
Blake, Sir F. Jephson, C. D.
Bankes, H. Labouchere, H.
Carter, J. Lloyd, Sir E. P.
Clive, E. B. Lester, B.
Clifton, Viscount Lamb, Hon. G.
Cholmeley, M. Littleton, E. J.
Cavendish, H. Lumley. J. S.
Cavendish, C. Lennard, T. B.
Cavendish, W. Morpeth, Viscount
Canning, Sir S. Maberly, J.
Calthorpe, Hon. A, Nugent, Lord
Davies, Col. O'Grady, Col.
Denison, J. E. Price, R.
Denison, W. J. , Parnell, Sir H.
Duncombe, T. ' Philips, O. R.
Dickinson, W. Palmerston, Vise,
Ewart, W. Ponsonby, Hon. G.
Ehrington, Viscount Pendarves, E. W.
Fazakerley, J. N. Palmer, C. F.
Fortescue, Hon. G. Pallrner, C. N.
Fyler, T. B. Poynts, W. S

sTii MARCO )OR NO,
'0 INQUIRR INTO THIg

Protheroe, E.
Phillimore, Dr.
Russell, Lord John
Rumbold, C. E.
Rice, T. S.
Robinson, G. R.
Stanley, Hon. E. G.
Stanley, Lord
Smith, Vernon
Sandon, Viscount
Towns hend, Lord C.
Tomes, J.
Uxbridge, Earl of
Villiers, it. H.
Warburton, H,
Wood, C.
Wilson, Sir R.
Webb, E.
Wilbraham, G.
Warrender, Sir G.

TELLERS.
Althorp, Viccount
IThomson, C. P.

PAIRED OFF.
Robarts, A, W
Marjoribanks, S.
Philips, Sir G.
Beaumont, T. W.

For some time past information has been re-
ceived by Mr. Powara., the Solicitor of the Mint, of a for-
midable gacg of utterers of base coin, who have been cir-
culating their spurious metal to a very considerable amount
through the county of Hertford, and had escaped pursuit
till Tuesday last, when the High Constable of Cheshuut
succeeded in apprehending them in the Market-place at
Hertford.—.Their names are—JAants MAHEW, THomAS
Tomcats, and hams BRETT. They are in Hertford gaol,
awaiting their trials.

The. Government steani-vessel Cornet arrived
at Falmouth on the 24th inst., with mails from Corfu to
the 3d inst., from lialta to 7th, and from Gibraltar to the
16th. She was obliged to put into Cadiz for fuel, and
sailed from that port on the 18th. The intelligence
brought by this arrival is not of any importance; but the
celerity of the conveyance has attracted a good deal of at-
tention among the Mediterranean merchants. This is the
first experiment made of a plan to substitute steam Davi-
gation in lieu of the tardy mode of conveyance hitherto
existing between the Post-office here and our settlements
in the Mediterranean. The result has been such as to
justify the hope generally :expressed in the city,that no
delay will be suffered to take place before the plan is per-
manently fixed upon and put into full operation. With
the exception of the remarkably quick voyage latelyper,
formed by a merchant brig called the Delos, in 24 days,
from the river to Smyrna, the passage of the Coniet ie
considered the most expeditious that is remembered to lave
taken place within several years back between this country
and the Mediterranean.

Sir G. CLERK begged to call the attention of the
Committee to the real question before them, that question
was, whether there was any thing in the situations of
these gentlemen which ought to induce the House to re-
fuse in their case what they would not refuse in similar
cases. There was no instance in which persons who had
been removed inconsequence of the abolition of offices hav-
ing been denied some remuneration. Such was the pre-
sent case. The allowance, moreover, was purely of a
temporary nature ; for these two persona were to 1/0 ap-