The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-06 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION

But what it was proposed, and what it was most important
to effect, was, that the inspection should be applied to the
1 introduction of those improvements which even in secular
1 education might be effected, and those admirable arrange-
ments which their Lordship's might witness (we believe the
Noble Marquis said) at the school in Norwood, established
by the Poor Law Guardians, arrangements not bearing
i upon the question of religion, but bearing upon that which
I was of equal importance—the training the children in
habits of order, cleanliness, dispeipline. and industry, which
might form a part of a cre.netalbsystem of education without
I interfering with those 'high truths which it was the duty
I and the privilege of the Church to inculcate. He had
I now touched upon the points respecting the plan which
was before Parliament. The Most Reverend Prelate had
thought it necessary to advert to a former minute of the
i Council, which had been withdrawn, not so much on ac-
count of the opposition made to it out of doors, as on ac-
count of the difficulty which existed in coming to a distinct
understanding between conflicting opinions, as to the way
I in which a normal school could be established. Now he
I (the Marquis of Lansdowne) did not depart from the prin-
ciple that the normal school would, under the sanction of
Government, he most important and beneficial. But
there was no intention on the part of the Govern-
ment to take such a course without bringing it
under the review of Parliament, and publicly stating the
grounds upon which it was proposed. The amount of the
vote itself indeed was sufficient proof that no such intention
existed. The Most Reverend Prelate had spoken a great
deal of the dstitiction between general and particular re-
ligion,—which he thought implied in that first minute,—
and having assumed tlyst by " general" religion, " na-
tural" religion was to be understood—he had argued upon
that supposition; —an erroneous supposition, for the words
" natural religion" did not occur in the minute : and as to
the distinction between general and particular religion,--
it had first been published in a speech of Sir R. Peel, who
in speaking upon education in Iceland, had drawn this dis-
tinction very naturally between general and particular
religion, stating that the one could be taught in a certain
manner and the other in a different manner. Fur him-
self, he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) disclaimed any other
distinction on the subject than that which naturally arose
between truths which were common to several religions,
and those which were peculiar to each. The Government
l intended not to propose anything hut what they considered
Would conduce to the grand object of promoting secular
improvement, reserving to the Church, free from all pos-
sibility of interference from inspection, or any other cause,
the right of religious teaching—a right which he (the
Marquis of Landsdowne) did moat solemnly declare lie
i most sincerely desired that the Church should retain, and
1 which he believed it was the duty of the Church to ex-
ercise. But because he wished the Church to preserve
; that right he was not prepared to exclude from the benefit
lof improved education any class of her Majesty's subjects.
and as a Member of Parliament he was bound to see that
S, a grant voted by the representatives of all, at the expense
of all, should be distributed for the benefit of all.--( Loud
cries of " hear, hear.") That was the sole claim which
the Government put in upon this occasion ; and in the
manner he had described did he solemnly declare that it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government, or the
Committee of the Privy Council, to administer the system
they had proposed; nor would be abandon the hope that
this plan, divested of those contingent objections to which
the too curious apprehensions of some persons conceived
1 it to be subject, would become the means of leading the
Icountry to the adoption of some practical system with
respect to education, equally condusive to the interests of
the Established Church and to the general welfare of the
! country.—( Cheers.) With these feelings he should now
I
move :he previous question to the motion of the Most Rev.
Prelate, trusting that it would not be carried, but if it
were he should not regret that the attempt had beer. made
on the part of the Government to carry into effect that
which he believed was the only mode of promoting that
i improvement in the general condition of society which at
the present time, more than at any former, was impera-
tively called for._( Loud cheers.)
The Bishop of EXETER said he would first address
? himself to those questions which the Noble Marquis bad
F;
put to that bench to which he had the honour to belong ;
; though he wished it to be cleanly understood, that he did
I not presume to speak the sentiments of that bench, still
less of the Church, upon this subject ; but only replied to
I questions which had been addressed to each individual of
i that body of which he was a Member. The first of these
questions was, whether the Church had a right to the edu-
.: cation el the public at large, including that portion of the
i people—millions in numbers—who do not belong to the
J Church. He was sure the Noble Marquis meant to pro-
, pose a question which should be clear and intelligible, but
the terms in which it was couched, raised in his (the Bishop
of Exeter's) mind considerable doubt, and he must make
some qualification. He would answer that the
' Church by no means claimed a right to enforce
any system of' education on the people ae large,
least of all on those who did not belong to the Church;
hut he did say this, that the Church had a right to de-
-1 mand of the State—and if both Church and State were
I prepared to', do their duty the demand would be acceded to
1 —that the Church should receive from the State the means
Of offering an efficient education to all the people of this
country, whether they belonged to the Church or not.—
S.Cheers.) God forbid that the Church should claim a
I right, or ask the State, to compel persons to take educe-
' tihn from her;, but she had a right to claim that the
chtech, recognild by the State as the supporter of the
true ihilgion....4 sfear, hear)— should have the means, at
least, of esetructing in that religion those belonging to her
cos/mimeses...see the Noble Marquis seemed to think it no
part of her duty to reclaim those who had wandered into
error-end if tlie State were prepared to do its duty on
this subject—(Cheers) —he would answer for his Right
Reverend Brethren on 'the Bench, and for the clergy of
their respective dioceses—that they would not neglect their
, duty—a duty he rejoiced to bear on this occasion
admitted, hesitatingly indeed, hypothetically it was true,
' hut still in some measure admitted, by the Noble Marquis
. the President of her Majesty's Council.--( Cheers.) The
second question which the Noble Marquis had proposed
: was, whether the claim of the Church extended not only to
the religious, but also to the secular education of the pets-
I plc. To which he (the Bishop of' Exeter) answered, that
; the Church did not presume to claim the direction of the
• secular education of the people, but she had a right to de-
mand that she should receive from the State the means of
sanctifying the secular instruction, particularly of those
poorer classes who were chiefly to be considered, and with
regard to whom he must say that he knew of little secular
education that ought not to be combined with religious.
; lie Wes far from denying, God forbid that he should, that
I a poor cum had not a right to make all those acquire-
ments in knowledge which it might please God to enable
him to ohnine..—( Hear..) But looking to the condition
I of those who were constantly engaged in laboiious occupa-
tient, he did say that it was impossible that they
", should be able to attain :inyy great intellectual cultivation,
1 and that it would be much cetter for such classes to con-

centrate their views on the one ~-rand subject of religion ;
that they should make their learning subservient to the
illustration of the Bible, instead of beiPS engrossed in
mere scientific inquiries.--( Hear, hear.) The` next ques-
tion of the Noble Marquis involved some difficult' in au-
swerir,g it ; because there was some obscurity as to the
meaning of the Noble Marquis. Did the Noble Marquis
mean, whether it was lawful for the State to give its
aid generally to persons not belonging to the Church, or
whether it was lawful for the State to give its aid to the
teaching of erroneous doctrines in religion to such parties ?
As he (the Bishop of Exeter) could not answer a question
which he did not understand, he would feel obliged to
the Noble Marquis if he would nxplain his meaning.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE explained that he
meant this—Whetlit,r it was the duty of the State to pro-
vide in the most etf Ttual manner for the improved educa-
tion of persons differing from the Church.—( _!ar, hear.)
The Bishop of EXETER—If the Noble Marquis in-
tended the general education of persons not belonging to
the Church, he answered most readily to the question, Yes,
it was right to give that assistance ; but if it were meant
that the State should assist in teaching those doctrines
which the state believed to be false iu religion, then the
State departed from its first duty.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE further explained
that he wislod the State to provide for the secular—not
the religious—•he spiritual instruction of the people.
The Bishop of EXETER said that confirmed him in

heartily assenting to the principle of the Noble Marquis,
though he could not help remarking that if the principle
Mere good in England, it was equally so in Ireland, where,
howevir,. a different plan ,vas pursued.—( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Marquis had asked whether the state of ciuca-
tion,ia this country was satisfactory?, God knows (said the
Right Rev. Prelate), I think it is in a inOit urfiatitifactory

state—(-Hear, hear)--that there are myriads of our fell
14w subjects—of our fellow Christians—fellow heirs with
us of immortality—in the very abyss of ignorance—( Hear,
hear)-80,000 children, for instance, in the neighbourhood
of Manchester, who, if suffered to remain in their igno-
rance, where they grew up, the State might punish them
for their crimes, but would be chargeable with their guilt.
—(Hear, hear.) But he must ask whose fault was it
that these. children had been allowed to continue in this
. _

Inhaopy situation ? Was it the fault of the Church ? Was
the Church to be charged with that tremendous extent
of misery which had accompanied the extension of menu-
factures, in which the State had been most anxious to
breed up and to encoura the production of these neg-
lected children,
tion, must -lid which, when left to its natural inevitablyopera-
lead to ignorance and vice.—( Hear,
bear.) The Reformation, illustrious as was the era, had
many grievous stales, and among the greatest was the
niggardliness with which since that
period the State of
England had doled out religious education to the people.
—_( Hear, bear.) There had been but oneir gloriousp excep-
tion, of that most Christian statesman, l
bad, in the midst of financial difficulty, proposed.
..v,,arla,nwth
ofo
100,000 L for the spiritual instruction of thaett it eves only
b poorer-classes.
That vote was continued for many years, n
discontinued because Parliament, after havise.
been
blessing of God, enabled to go through the erbeyattehset
Iproteverits
bet threatens..
trebea tneenfeadc
taonry country,
lt w ls t thoughth d i
to dangers
throw wahsiiedhe i
per
of the Parliament, not of the Clergy. There weregsrotmeee
present who were not guiltless of that offence, but they
ought to bins God that they were still able to make repa-
ration—that only reparation which was now within their
power. Let thorn give additional means of Church ex-
tension in the manufacturing districts. Without that he
would not say that it was dishonesty—he would not say
that it was hypocrisy ; but be would say that it was the
grossest inconsistency in any Noble Lord to get up and
complain of the destitute state in which the manufacturing
districts were with respect to crime. He did not complain
of the present Government so much as those wlO had gone
before. But the Noble Marquis had alluded to the unfor-
' tunate case of Sir William Courtenay, which had lately
I happened in Kent. Now he (the Bishop of Exeter)
would suppose that the Noble Marcos had got one of his
model A phooli established in Kent. Those unhappy, and
nahappily ignorant people believed that Sir Wiliam Cour-
ten sy was inspired and a prophet. Now, suppose also,
were were enough of believers in him to have
l according to the doctrine laid down in
I/1 flute of the Committee, that Committee would
,ts".-eorecd to pay a master of the opinions of
.41(o
~,,t'Or Ailli 'am Courtenay—( Laughter.) They had al-
-7.4:040c three plans since the Ist of January,
)6

n+r/"'~i

how many more they would have before the Ist
of January, 1840, it was impossible to say. One had
already been superseded—another had not been super-
seded, but another plan had been put side by side with-
it—the second to be acted upon the first opportunity that
could be found. Model schoels were the most cherished
idea of the plan—it was the first and the last, and was only
laid aside for a time. Difficulties arose, and it was
hid aside in a certain mass of words, which left it
open to the Committee to resume the plan at the
earliest opportunity that offered. The Noble Marquis
in his letter to Lord John Russell, held that model schools
were indispensible; and her Majesty. through her Secre-
tary of State, had given the scheme her most cordial ap-
probation. It now, then, became the duty of the Noble
Marquis to take means for carrying it out; and he (the
Bishop of Exeter) had not the least doubt but that he
would be most happy to perform his duty. The Commit-
tee spoke of general and special religious instruction, but
why si.ould the general religious instruction be confined
to Christians—why should it exclude the Heathen, the
.Icw, or the Mabometan ? Again, what were the truths
which all Christians professed in common to believe ?
If they were only to be those in which all would
agree, the Commission, which was the shOrtest document
upon the table, would be longer than the Book of Truth,
in which all were to agree. But there was a fallacy about it
which appeared to have been entirely lost sight of. It
was giving the power to those who believed least of the
Christian religion to impose upon the mass their own prin-
ciples.—(Hear, hear.) Would-the Noble Marquis con-
sent that his child should be taught his duty to his Maker
—would he consent that he should be taught big moral
duties as a man, without his being taught what he was as a
►nan—without being taught that he was a sinful, worthless
being, who was unable to perform any duty unless he was
assisted by the Divine Grace—that being so, he should say
that general religious instruction was not the way in which
to sanctify the dawning reason in youth. He would not
trespass farther on their time than merely to thank them
r the attention they had paid him.
The Bishop of DURHAM having on a former occasion
presented a petition signed by 24,000 people in favour of
general education, he had taken that opportunity
of stating that it would be desirable that normal
schools should be established—that a larger grant should
be made to the British and Foreign School, to the Na-
tional Schools, and to the Education Schools in Glasgow.
An imputation had been thrown upon the Government,
that it had jumped from the course it had proposed to pur-
sue in 1838. He did not know what might have induced
them to take their present course, but he did know that
there were many circumstances which should have made
them do so. Last year a great number of petitions had
been presented to both Houses, praying for an extended
scheme of national education. In fact, that matter
had been agitated in the public mind more than any
other thing. Again, the inquiries that had been made, and
the statistical accounts that had been returned, showed that
there was an imm..nse number of persons totally without
education. and that crime was caused thereby—the greater
number of prisoners having been left totally without any
means of instruction—also from the very general wish
that had been expressed for a large scheme of national
education, and from the accounts of what was doing for
education on the Continent, and from the unhappy cir-
cumstances which had lately taken place in Kent, no
doubt the Government was induced to take the matter se-
riously into their consideration, and to make a larger grant
to the two Societies than formerly.
[We regret that the Rev. Prelate was nearly inaudible
in the gallery from the circumstance of his speaking from
the Bishop's bench, which is at the far end of the House,
and also from his speaking very low, but more particularly
from. the buzz of conversation that arose from the Tory
benches.]

Earl FITZ WILLIAM said that every one of their
Lordships must have heard with pleasure the speeches
which had fallen from the Most Rev. Prelate, and from
the Rev. Prelate who had spoken from the table (Exeter).
Any man must have listened with pleasure to the speeches
dictated by that talent, which had no doubt given them
the opportunity of addressing their Lordships ; but there
was a very considerable discrepancy between the two
speeches. Thee Most Rev. Prelate, in the conclusion of
his speech, said that if the Church ceased to teach morals,
or a right course of Christianity, then it would be right for
the State to cast off the Church. He trusted there was
no individual in that House who thought the Church could
be cast off by the State on any account.—( Hear, hear. )
But it did not appear to him that was a grant on which
they could be led to the conclusion to which the Right
Reverend Prelate had arrived. The Right Reverend
Prelates would forgive him if, greatly adwirring the elo-
quence of the latter and the lucid and distinct statements
of the former, he took the liberty of complaining that they
bad not grappled with the true question before their Lord-
ships.--( Hear, bear.) Since 1834, for five successive
Sessions, a vote of money had been made by the House of
Commons for purposes analogous to those contemplated
by the present vote, and any person imbued with the rea-
,:oning faculty would have expected the Right Reverend
Prelates would have pointed out some glaring inconsis-
tency between the plan now proposed and those carried
out by previous votes. From that they had shrunk.—
( Hear, hear.)— Differences he knew might be shown,
( Hear, hear, from the Opposition)—but real and sub.
stantial differences he contended there were none.
There was no substantial difference between the hands
through which the money was to pass. He admitted
that in granting public funds to any locality they
ought first to call on the wealthy in the neighbourhood to
contribute ; but they ought not to refuse funds because no
voluntary contributions were made, because by such a
course they might deprive those localities of assistance
which from their poverty stood in the greatest need of it.
The Right Rev. Prelate had said there was only one pe-
riod for the last three centuries in which the State bad
done its duty on the snbject of education, and that was in
granting 100,0001. But was that 100,0001. granted for the
purpose of instructing the people ? No ; the only object
of that grant was to increase the value of small livings.--
( Hear, hear.) He did not disapprove of that grant; but
it was money given to the ministers of the Church, and
did not at all insure the increased instruction of the
people.—(A Noble Lord—" It encouraged residence.")
No; the building of glebe-houses would have encouraged
residence, but the 100,0001. did not—it might have im-
proved the condition of the pastors, bd.'. it did not benefit
their flocks. He was painfully surprised to hear the
Right Rev. Prelate say there was not a dogma in Chris-
tianity that was not denied—he was surprised to hear that
from a Christian minister—but would the Right Rev.
Prelate get up and say there were not many dogmas in
Christianity that were acceded to by every sect in the
empire ? He did not know what impression such an opi-
nion would create out of doors. It appeared to him that
the Right Rev. Prelate's opinion was that the education
and instruction of the people was not only not calculated
to make the people more Christian, but had a directly
opposite tendency. If that were so—that the more know-
ledge a man had—the more he was accomplished, and the
more he bad the means of tasting intellectual pleasures,
so in proportion was he the less fited to receive
the doctrines of Christianity—if that was so no man would
be more averse than himself to affording intellectual en-
joyment; but, on the contrary, he believed it was the best
preparation for enabling him to receive the truths of
Christianity according to their true spirit. It appeared to
him ( Earl Fitzwilliam) that such an opinion was the most
remote from the truth, and which, if true, would lead to
the most alarming and disheartening conclusions. As to
the plan proposed by the Government he had little doubt
but that the formation of the Committee, as it was now
formed, had led to a great deal of bona fide mis-
understanding, and a good deal of misrepresenta-
lian out of doors; and, therefore, though his
Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had defended
it with a considerable degree of success, he did not think,
viewing it as a matter of expediency, that his Noble
Friends had been well advised in the course they had
taken—he meant for their own interest. He was very far
from being of opinion that there was anything to complain
of in the constitution of the Committee. There was little
difference between a Committee of four responsible Minis-
ters and four Lords of the Treasury—indeed he should say
the present Committee was, in some respects, a better
body than the last, because it was composed of men in
higher strtion and mere responsible to Parliament. He
did not believe that anything would be done by that Com-
mittee that had not been done by the Treasury itself. If
he thought they would administer the money as the Right
Rev. Prelate supposed, so as to encourage those who had
the smallest portion of Christianity about them to the exclu-
sion of those who had a large portion of Christianity, then
he, would not approve of it; but be did not think any well-
founded apprehensions could be entertained on that subject.
On these grounds he should give his vote in favour of the
previous question. One word on a branch of the subject
which his Noble Friends had been obliged, as he thought,
unfortunately to recede from—he meant the establishment
of normal schools. There were very few of their Lord.
ships, he trusted, who had not, at one period of their
lives, been engaged in establishing schools, and he would
ask them whether the greatest of all difficulties in the
establishment of a good school, was not the difficulty of
firstling a good school-master. That difficulty met these at
the very outset.—(Cheers.) He (Earl F.) augured well
from the attempt that had been made by the present Go-
vernment on the subject of education, and if successful in
their bands, he believed it would drag many others up
by the collar.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) If the Go-
vernment yielded to the address, they would betray the
best interests of the country. Ii under the dictation of
lay Lords, or even of clerical Lords, they would violate
their duty, and would incur a large share of responsibility
to the people of this empire, to whom it was proposed to
lend a sum of 30,0001 (Laughter)—they would de-
prive the people of England of all the benefits which the
other House of Parliament—aye, and which that House
had during five successive years recognised to have been
the results of the previous grants. Their Lordships could
not`get, out of that. They had acquiesced in those votes,
they had acquiesced in them—it was
andbecause theyt
hkenye w why
felt they were beneficial to the people of
England, and they knew their duty too well to make any
few
objection to the distribution of those grants.
there Whateverere hate
fv.e.r
vote they might comehe believed
to,
believed there
her Majesty, contained in the address—he
who thought his Noble Friend would give that advice to
were few who would give different advice to what ho hoped
theystrin
stringent
as ldgtiovep.re Ifen their
mLordships' proceedings were so
giving that advice to her Ma-
jesty, which they ought to give, the responsibility
so
in-
curred would recoil on their Lordships' heads.—(
H. Hear.
The Bishop of NORWICH felt some difficultydifficultyad-
dressing their Lordships, feelin that his opinions might
not be in accordance with many gof their Lordships, and he
felt still more difficulty' because he was aware
might not by any means be in accordance
his opinions
with the opi-
nions of some of his Right Rae Brethren, yet he
consoled himself by thinking, though might
not be treading in thepath yet the
end and the aim of their object was the. same.P He had
been much gratified with the eloquent and able speech of
the Right Rev. Prelate at the table (the Bishop of EXC.
ter). He bad been much gratified at the cordiality with
which the Right Rev. Prelate (the Archbishop of Can-
terbury) spoke of the Noble Marquis's system of educa-
tion. All he hoped was that there would be a new era,
and that the most Rev. Prelate would have the rest of
his Right Rev. Brethren aiding and assisting her Ma-

jesty's Government—endeavouring, as they were, by
every means in their power, to do that which was to pro-
mote the welfare of the people. He was also much gra-
tified with what fell from the Right Rev. Prelate a few
evenings ago, when he disclaimed the idea that the clergy
were anxious to have the education of all the people—
The Bishop of LONDON—I disclaimed nothing of
the sort. —( Hear, hear.) I claimed the right to educate
my own flock.

The Bishop of NORWICH—The Right Rev. Prelate,
and another Right Rev. Prelate claimed, and rightly
claimed, a right to educate every one of their flocks com-
mitted to their charges, He rejoiced to hear this, because
it was a sufficient answer And refutation to the calumny
that had been heaped upon them, that the Clergy of Eng-
land had been dormant at their post, in apathy and le-
thargy. From this time forward the people of England
would never hear that the clergy of England were apathetic
or slumbering at their post. No, they would be ever
ready to attend the people, and he hoped and trusted their
energies and zeal would be always displayed in the great
and important work of educating, not only their own
flock, but the mass of the population. —( Hear, hear.)
When he observed the changes that had taken place
within a short period in the Church—when be called to
mind the time when it required some moral courage to
speak of education—when they were used to have the most
insignificant portion of it dated out to them, might he not
anticipate that great changes were likely to occur ?
(Hear, bear, hear.) He remembered the time when infant
schools were looked upon as dangerous to the Church.—
( Hear, hear.) He remembered the time when he was
taunted, and by a clergyman, because, forsooth, he consi-
dered these infant schools as engines of Socinianism, and
calculated to undermine the Church. It was Socinianism
in the cradle—it was danger to the Church from infants
in the nursery. He looked forward to the time when he
hoped to see the Established Church as tolerant in its prac-
tice as it was in theory. He admitted there were serious dif-
ferences in the way of a general system'of instruction. If
there was any subject which should be discussed without pas-
sion or without anger,. it was that of education.—( Hear,
hear.) But he appealed to their Lordships arid the
world whether the subject had been calmly and dispas-
sionately discussed?—( Hear, hear.) How had it been
met ? By exaggeration, by falsehood, and by every de-
gree of obloquy which could be heaped upon man. Such
had been the reception et the system of education pro-
posed by her Majesty's Government. Surely that was
not the way to receive it. The fact was, each party had
his own scheme hammered out of his own anvil to which
he regularly attached himself. Instead of adopting the
Christian principle of believing no evil in the plan, they
considered it as all evil. He (the Bishop of Norwich) did
not mean to say the scheme was perfect. But there had
been no explanation ; the country had condemned it at once
without examination. The clergy might be anxious for
education, but they could not do it, they were not suffi-
ciently numerous. There' were immense masses of the
people to whom they never. could obtain access. The
Right Rev. Prelate who presided over the thirty-two
parishes of :the metropolis had stated that there was
not one clergyman to every 15,000 persons. How then
could they do their duty, and carry education amongst
these masses of people ? It had been said that there was
great difficulty in devising any plan by which the Dissenter
and the Churchman could be educated together. It was
a point of great nicety, but.jie believed it was practicable.
—( Cheers.) He was not a novice in education, for he
had spent many years of his life among the humbler classes,
he knew their feelings, their habits, and their thoughts,
and it was his deliberate conviction that the people could
be educated together although of different religious opi-
nions. He now came to the most delicate point, the system
of general and special religious instruction. The Goverment
had been taunted with that proposition, but it was not a dis-
covery of their own—they were plagiarists, and of a man of
whom they had no need tar be ashamed. That individual was
neither more nor less than 'a Right Rev. Prelate, who com-
manded the esteem and respect of all who knew him—he meant
the evangelical Prelate, Daniel Wilson, the Bishop of Calcutta.
There was an establishment at Calcutta called Martiniere,
which had been founded by a general officer, who had gone out
to Madras as a private soldier, amassed a large fortune, which
he left for the education of the people, without reference to
creed. The Lord Bishop of Calcutta was at the head of the
Committee, and the document in his hand was signed
" Daniel Calcutta, Robert Leger, and James Chare;."
Now he wished to reverse the order, and to put James Charles
at the top, as promoting a system of general education.—( Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.") The plan first adopted was that of
education in the doctrines of the Church of England ; but that
was discovered to be contrary to the will of the founder, and a
system was then established in which Protestant and Catholic,
Dissenter, Creek, and Arminian might receive moral and reli-
gious instruction. The religious instruction was divided into
two pans, general and special, and these were the very words
which were used in the Order in Council. In the general re-
ligious instruction were contained those doctrines in which the
Catholic, Quaker, Arminian, and every grade of Dissenter and
Churchman were agreed, and the special instruction was given
on particular days by the Ministers of each religious persua-
sion to the children. Truly when they found such a system
working well at Martiniere, it was unfair to condemn the pre-
sent proposition. Again, with respect to the different versions
of the Scriptures, a great objection was urged against the
Douay edition of the Bible being permitted in these schools.
What was the Douay version ? It was a translation from a
book published in 1669 by the University of Oxford,
as being the very best version of the Bible. At the time
of the Revolution in France, when England was deluged with
emigrants, what did the University of Oxford? They pub-
lished a large edition of the same work, which they dissemi-
nated among the emigrants—they were received with gratitude
and considered a boon worthy of the University.—(Hear.,
hear.) He was aware that the prospect was gloomy enough
before them, and through that gloom it was scarcely possible to
see anything like a bow of promise, but among the angry feel-
ings and animosities that existed he predicted that the time
would come when these prejudices and angry passions would
sink like sediment, and at the top would float those buoyant
principles which all philanthropists should cherish—then, instead
of contending together as controversialists, they would go hand
in hand to overcome their powerful enemy, both ignorance and
vice, and Profligacy ; and although her Majesty's Ministers
might not live to see the fruit; tlaey had sown the seed which no
power could crush, which would never be crushed, and he
hoped they might all look forward with confidence to the time
when the people of England would be educated.
The Bishop of LONDON at that late hour, and in an atmo-
sphere very much resembling that of the diocese to which his
Right Rev. Brother would send him—(Laughter)—would
not trespass long upon their Lordships ; but he felt it
would be inconsistent with his duty if he did not offer a few
observations before the discussion was brought to a close.
He gave the Right Rev. Prelate full credit for sincerity of
intention—he had spoken of the tolerance of the Church, and
he (the Bishop of London) hoped with him that it would be
as tolerant in practice as theory. He would not dwell upon
the subject, but lie would just remark that if any Church de-
served the character of toleration in practice it was the Es-
tablished Church of that realm.—( Loud cheers.) Indeed,
lie was not sure if it had not carried it further than the Con-
stitution of the country warranted.—( Hear, hear.) Not
that he blamed her for that—not that he wished
her to retrace her steps, but he could not sit
quietly by, and hear those statements made to their Lordship..
It was with unfeigned reluctance that he presented himself as
the supporter of resolutions which were, view them as they
might, condemnatory of the plan proposed by the Government.
That plan had been persevered in with much determination—
with an insignificant majority in another place—and the oppo-
sition of the great bulk of the people. With the opposition of
3,000 petitions against it, and 100 in its favour. lie felt great
pain in doing so, because it had taken the shape of receiving
the sanction and approval of their Sovereign, who was
recognised as the temporal head of the Church.—
( Hear, hear.) But in applying the language of censure
to the measure, he hoped he might not be supposed to ascribe
unworthy motives to any individual. They were erroneous
motives lerding to injurious results, but he did not suppose
there was any deliberate intention or forethought to set in ope-
ration machinery which, if allowed to go on, would undoubtedly
undermine and weaken, if it did not overthrow, the Protestant
Church in that country. Above all, the Noble Lord the Pre-
sident of the Council was the last person to whom he would
impute sneh motives. The Noble Lord had stated his
conviction of the intimate connection between the Esta-
blished Church and the State too frequently to sup-
pose that he had any such intention, but giving the
Ministers full credit for the sincerity of their motives
it required some degree of charity to believe that they were
influenced by anything but a desire to promote the interest of
the Established Church. lie thought they were in the hands
of party in that country who were using, or attempting to
use; them as instruments in carrying that measure—( Cheers)
—a party making up in activity and subtlety what they wanted
in strength and respectability.—( Cheers )—who were endea-
vouring to undermine the foundations of the Church and the
Throne, and who most skillfully assailed the one through the
other, and if the Church fell ib would involve in its fall that of the
Throne.—( Hear, hear.) He spoke athisedly when he said
there was an active party labouring for these objects ; it was
now two years since he took occasion to warn their Lordships
and the country against the projects and schemes set forth, and
recommended for adoption by a Society comprising in its list
names highly respectable, whether he looked to the rank of
the parties,or the uprightness and integrity of their motives, but
who had lent their names, not being aware of the tendency of
the Society —he meant the Central Society of Education. That
Society was at work to overthrow National Education in con-
nection with the Church, and to establish a strictly
secular education. It had been ascertained that the exclusion
of the Bible was made a sine qua non by that Society. The
first project put fort by their Committee was almost identical
with that proposed by the Goverment, but there was another
body which had been recently formed, called the Society for
tho Promotion of Religious Equality. The Right Rev. Prelate
then read an extract from the rules of the Society, and ob-
served that that was not more than might be expected from
determined Dissenters, anxious for the suppression of the Estab-
lished Church as a Church. But the following passage was
much more important :—" On every side the Church and
State question meets us—it is the Tithe question in Ireland—
it is the Church Extention in Scotland, and it is the Church-
rate, and Education, and University question in England. "
( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Now, it followed, that if they
were to have primary schools upon the Government system,
the same principle must be applied to the Universities.
They had increased to the amount of 71,814, only one twenty-
sixth part of which were Dissenters. In this number were not
included the scholars at the Dissenting schools. There were
1,000,000 of children at schools in connection with the Church ;
compare that large aggregate with the number of scholars when
the impulse commenced which instituted the National Society
and the British and Foreign School Society. Were not the
clergy the most active and liberal promoters of those schools
formed under the superintendence of those Societies ? Many
of the schools were commenced almost at their expense, and
they spent a great portion of their time in the management of
them.—(Hear, hear.) A vet y just and eloquent tribute was
pronounced by a Noble and Lamed Lord (Lord Brougham),
who had distinguished himself as an advocate of education, upon
the parochial clergy in the other House of Parliament about
21years ago. As the Noble and Learned Lord then said that he
respectable of thatn u m educationbehritlhdofirses attention
estimateh was
i nw ,
which
obutse
spoke after full and most mature de'iberation, he trussed that
that well considered eulogy would not now be withdrawn. The
Noble Marquis had admitted that a very considerable extent of
education had been supplied to the people in connection with
the exertions of the Church; but he cemplained that the
quality
the
Noblee religious
Marquis t h e
educationll
of inferior.
the
a education
i d
n The
e h
to e was a
hi very
s
la3uetg
schools. llse g said
hede f
tOO
00nf d
theth greata
children
did not himself call this bad, but that was the language of that
party in whose hands, he feared, the Government were--those
badnessi arosevtel
cr s wf
roorte,s
.
who were classed against the Church, and looked for the success
of their designs to the operation of the measure now brought
forward by the Government. The alleged badness was, that
the clerical system of education devoted too much time to the
study. and exposition of the Scriptures, and too little to the ac-
quisition
of that useful knowledge .requisite for the pursuits of
artizans in after life. The clergy were content to bear this im-
putation.—( Hear.) Without reserve they admitted that they felt .
the great object of education was to train up immortal beings, !