The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-23 00:00:00

THE 610 N, LONDON,

honour not to proceed with any other motion until that of
Poland was disposed of. (Hear, hear.) •
Mr. NEWDEGATE held that the house had adopted a
proper course. That house must not degerterata into a
mere debating club. It would have been wrong to debate
the affairs of Poland to an issue whilst negotiations were
pending.
Mr. CONINGHAM characterised this as an attempt to
crush an independent member. (Hear, hear.) When
Court job, like that of Kensington, was to be perpetrated,
the Government and the house could easily find time for its
discussion. (Murmurs.)

Mr. BENTINCK Concurred in the opinion that it was
desirable not then to discuss the subject. He thought,
however, it was the duty of the noble lord at the head of
her Majesty's Government to relieve the house from the
very awkward, nay painful, position it was placed in ; for
it was hard to say what might be the consequences on their
future proceedings if they could not place any reliance on
arrangements entered into by the leader of that house.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord having pledged himself on a
former occasion that the subject should be brought on that
night, he was hound to give the earliest opportunity for its
being brought forward.
Lord lt. MONTAGU also considered the noble lord was
bound to give an early day for the discussion of the motion'
and condemned the course pursued, which, he said, was
one to govern by a minority.

Mr. BEAUMONT said he appealed to the hon. member
for the King's County on his own behalf, and without the
instigation of any one. Believing the time to be inoppor-
tune, he spoke to the hon. member for Bridgwater, a few
hours before the house met, on the subject, and he also
named it to one or two other hon. gentlemen, and find-
ing their views coincided with his, he made the motion.
Indeed, he had not made up his mind to take a division
up to the time when it was called, believing that the hon.
member for King's County would have answered the ap-
peal made to him. When similar appeals hitd been made he
had seen hon: members rise and answer them, if they did
not assent to them. (Hear.) Every member he spoke to on
the subject told him he would be justified in pursuing the
course he had, and they also agreed with him that there
were ample grounds for adjourning the discussion. He con-
sidered himself five to act as an independent member, what-
ever arrangements might have been come to by the hon.
member and the noble lord at the head of the Government.

Mr. PEACOCKE said that the compact entered into be -
tween the hon. member for King's County and the noble
lord was not binding on the house. (Hear.) He believed it
was not the right time to bring the subject under discus-
sion. The Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs had stated
that the Government had received information which con-
tradicted the statement that the Russian Government had
ordered the use of the knout on Polish ladies who wore
mourning ; and he wished to know on whose authority it
was stated, as well as the addition he made to it, that the
barbarities practised by the Russians warranted the truth
of the rumour so in circulation. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. D. GRIFFITH hoped the house would not cen-
sure the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for
the information he had given in reference to Russia and
Poland.

Lord PALMERSTON—I was entirely taken by surprise
both with regard to the motion made and the decision come
to on it by the house. The Government had no other desire
than to return that courtesy to the hon. member for King's
County which he showed to us on a former occasion when
he postponed his motion, but of course it must be obvious to
every person that no Government can answer for every
member in the house. (Hear.) All we can do is to engage
that those facilities in the conduct of business we are
able to afford shall be accorded. I shall be quite ready,
so far as I am concerned, to adopt the proposal of the noble
lord (Lord R. Cecil) with regard to putting off the order of
the day, and of allowing the hon. member for King's County
to go on early in the evening with his motion ; but I must
remind the house that there are many orders on the paper
belonging to private members over which her Majesty's
Government have no control; neither do I think that that
course, if adopted, would be respectful to the majority who
by their votes considered it was not advisable then to pro-
ceed with the motion. (Hear.) If I has thought any in-
jury would have arisen by the discussion, I should have
told the hon. member so, and I feel certain, from the man-
ner in which he has hitherto discharged his public duties,
that he would have at once yielded to that suggestion.
(Hear.) I cannot say that such a discussion would have
been injurious to the public service—(hear)—but the carry-
ing of either of the addresses would have been—(hear)—
and I should have felt it my duty to-night, and shall
when those motions are made, to oppose them; because I
think they would render negotiations utterly impossible.
(Hear, hear) As I presume the discussion will not take 1
place to-night, I think it will be satisfactory to the house
to know the substance of the communication that was sent
on the 17th to Russia, with regard to the affairs of Poland
(hear, hear)—and I may say, at the same time, that similar
communications, in nearly identical terms, were made by
France and Austria, and the three communications would
in all probability reach St. Petersburg about the same time.
We are ready to lay the despatch alluded to on the table,
but it will, perhaps, be more courteous to Russia to give
them a suitable time for replying to it before we do so.
(Hear, hear.) There cannot, however, I think, be any
impropriety in my now stating to the house the substance
of the recommendations which we, in concert with France
and Austria, have submitted for the consideration of the
Russian Government. The suggestions comprise six
points: I. First, a general and a complete amnesty--(hear,
hear) ; secondly, national representation, upon the principle
—as we recommend it—as established by Alexander I. in
1815, in virtue of the execution of the treaty of Vienna.
The Austrian Government, however, propose to take some
modified view of the subject, but our opinion is that, in
order to satisfy the just expectation of the Polish nation,
the Parliament should be elected on the footing of the char-
ter as granted by Alexander I. Thirdly, that Poles alone
shall be appointed to public offices in regard to Polish ad-
ministration, such as will command the confidence of the
Polish nation. Fourthly, that full liberty of conscience
shall be given, and due protection to the religion of the
people, (Hear.) Fifthly, that the Polish language shall be
used on all public occasions, and in the education of the
people. And, sixthly, a regular system of recruiting to be
established, so as to prevent the recurrence of those pro-
ceedings which have given rise to the present disturbances.
(Hear.) We have strongly urged, in addition, that there
should be a cessation of hostilities, because our opinion is,
that unless the mutual conflicts between the insurgents on
the one hand and the Russian troops on the other are put
an end to, negotiations cannot rest on any stable or.satis-
factory foundation. The Austrian Government has not
actually recommended it, but they have urged the Russian
Government to a similar effect ; and I trust, when we lay
that despatch upon the table, the house will be of opinion
that her Majesty's Government have done everything in
our power likely to be attended with success—(hear)—be-
cause it was of consequence in these matters that we should
consider not what was desirable so much as what can be at-
tained. (Hear.) I am asked on what grounds my hon.
friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs has stated
that General Mouravieff did not issue an order that ladies
attired in mourning should be-subjected- to corporal suffer-
ing; and also on what ground he stated that other at-
trocities have been committed by the Russian soldiers.
The first statement is founded on a telegraph communica-
tion forwarded at the desire of the Russian Government,
who were anxious to have it contradicted. And the
second statement was made on the authority of a despatch
received by her Majesty's Government, and amongst other
things this transaction was reported—at a place not far
from Wilna, a body of Polish insurgents, about 120 in num-
ber, were surrounded by a superior RUF Flan force. They
laid down their arms, and surrendered, and afterwards, by
order of the commanding officer, who was referred to to
know what was to be done, the Russian soldiers rushed on
them with fixed bayonets and killed 40 on the spot, and 20
who were severely wounded died after in the hospital.
(Sensation.) That statement was made amongst others on
good authority, to which my hon. friend alluded, as an in-
stance of the barbarity of the Russians. (Hear,) At the
same time truth compels me to say that we have also state-
ments of proceedings on both sides which make humanity
shudder, the prevalence of which on both sides is a strong
reason which induces us to urge on the Russian authorities li
the suspension of those hostilities which desolate the coun-
try, lay waste the produce of industry, and tend to an im-
mense loss of life on both sides without any apparent result
to either. (Hear.) That is the statement I have to make,
and I hardly think there will be much use or that it will be
respectful to the majority to press on the discussion to-
night, because those who were against its coming before the
order, might carry the motion for adjournment, and there-
fore I shall feel it my duty to give the lion. member for
King's County every facility for bringing it forward another
night. When the division was called I expected to hear the
hon. member for King's County rise in his place and say
that he acquiesced or dissented to the request, but as he did
not, I voted for him in accordance with my pledge to him,
and it was not my fault that the motion has not been brought
on. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—The house is in some embarrassment,
notwithstanding the observations of the noble lord. I
am of opinion that this is not a convenient time for dis-
cussing this question; but, the noble lord the leader of the
house being of a different opinion, I cannot demur to
the arrangement he has made. The noble lord has said that
he expected to hear a statement from the hon. gentleman
the member for King's County before the motion was put;
but if the noble lord had risen after the third hon. member
had spoken behind him, and at once have said that her Ma-
jesty's Government felt no inconvenience would arise from
discussing the Polish question, the division would not have
taken place, and the house would not have been put in so
difficult a position. (Hear.) If the house is placed in a dif-
ficulty, the Minister also; for what security have we got,
when he says that another opportunity shall be afforded of
discussing the subject, that the noble lord's assurance will
be enforced, when he might be defeated by his own sup-
porters ? (Hear.) After this point has arisen and been dis-
cussed the noble lord, to my surprise, made a very impor-
tant communication to the house. He has laid great stress
on the recommendation to Russia of a cessation of hostili-
ties,, which is no doubt greatly to be desired, not only for
the propose of patting an end to the mutual massacres of
Which we hear so much, but as the best basis for diplomatic
action; but I should like to be informed of the means Russia
uaa for obtaining a cessation of hostilities from Poland. 1

These propositions, if accepted, and if practicable, will only
bring about a state of affairs similar, ta_that_which existed
before, and which must be essentially considered of a very
provisional-eharaoter, though they do not seem to me to offer
any solution of the great question. (Hear, hear.) There are
only two great solut, ons to the question, the unityof the Rus-
sian empire, or the independence of Poland. (Hear.) These
are two inflexible policies, and no doubt much might be said
on both sides ; but the proposition of her Majesty's Govern.
ment appears to me to take entirely the character of a mere
.diplomatic interference, which can never do anything.
(?I..ear, hear.) I cannot say that the policy of her Majesty's
GoNvernment has shadowed forth to-night is one at all dis •
tingmished by its prescience, its sagacity, or that firmness
which is calculated to lead to any satisfactory result.
(Hear.) ii Dist be a very sanguine politician who can
suppose that they will be accepted by Russia. They would
only raise a phantom of Polish independence, which, in due
course, must lead to that conjunction of circumstances such
as have continued up to the present, and no solution of the
state ofn
ow affairsto whichbe t
ndic7o'l:eriodically disturbs Europe ap-
pearsll in the policy of her Majesty's
Government. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL asked the noble led if the proposition
had reference to Lithuania, Volhynia, anci odolia.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY considered the discitg.?len un-
desirable at the present time.
Mr. HENNESSY said he bowed to the decision of the
house---and with reference to the proposition of the noble
noble lord the member for Stamford he begged to say he
had no desire to do anything opposed to the feeling of the
majority of the house. Those who voted against him in the
recent division did not differ from him in opinion on the
Polish question. (Hear.) All, he believed, were anxious
that something should be done for Poland, and he could
not regard the division as at all bearing on the merits of
the case. (Hear, hear.) He should accept the noble lord's
offer, and bring the subject forward on Thursday.
-

Mr. S. FITZGERALD was also of opinion that it would
have been impolitic then to have discussed the motion, and
he put several questions to the noble lord relative to Aus.
trian conduct in the negosiation, and asked if he would lay
on the table the despatch on which the Under Secretary for
Foreign Affairs had that night made his statement.

After some remarks from Mr. SCULLY and Mr. WYLD,
Lord PALMERSTON said the general and complete
amnesty was to apply to all who had been in arms in Poland,
whether in Congress Poland or in the Upper Provinces'
The other arrangements would only apply to the kingdom of
Poland in relation to the treaty of Vienna. The six points
her Majesty's Government had proposed were prepared by
Earl Russell, and agreed to by France and Austria, with a
slight modification by Austria. Although he considered it
his duty to state what her Majesty's Government had done,
he did not think he ought to enter into detailed explana-
tions of communications by other Governments of which
they were not officially in possession; but he might state
that generally the communications of France and Austria
were to the same effect as those forwarded by her Majesty's
Government. Many other Governments had also made re-
presentations, but it would not be regular for him to go into
that at present. He could not then give the hon. member
for Bodmin an answer to his question relative to the ap-
pointment of a constitutional army officered by Poles. He
thought it would be rather a stormy proposal to make to
Russia.

Mr. FORSTER said they were now in a different position
to what they were when the division took place. He hoped
the noble lord would name an early day for the discussion.
He hoped the hon. member would give a few days before he
attempted to bring on a discussion.
Mr. HENNESSY said he would be happy to do what
was best upon the case ; and as it seemed to be the opinion
of the house that the debate should not take place until the
answer of the Russian Government was made known, he
would bow to that wish. He supposed the Government
would give him every facility for bringing the question on.
The motion was then withdrawn.
LONDON, &c., DIOCESES BILL.