The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-25 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

received froret the Chancellor of the Exchequer for expos-
ing this uraconstlnutional and tyrannical measure as he had
done. If. the Tories had proposed such a Bill fifteen
1 or twenty -years ago, he was sure the Noble Lord would be
one of tbes first to oppose it. The proposition was one of the
t evils, of, having men in office who had the name, but
n'Jt. 'the principles of Reformers. There were only two
) places in the whole country in which the proposition
would be receivesi.=those two places were the two Houses
of Parliament,(Laughter.) If the measure were even
more tyrannical, more unconstitutional, and more central-
)
izing, he was sure it would be passed there ; it would
however, excite but one feeling throughout the country.
It would be abhorred as a measure for organising a force
j of 100,000 men, perhaps, to add to the standing army as
; well as to the police force, skid that without consulting the
1 rate-payers—a force, to prevent the people, weighed down
by tweation and the enormous pressure of the National
De'et, from expressing their complaints. Let them
redress the grievances of the people, and grant their
1 legitimate rights, and they would not want such a
force. True, as the Noble Lord had said, such a force was not
wanted in ancient times ; but that was because the people
were not oppressed in those days as they are now. 'The
Noble Lord must know that he could not remain in office
long.—(Laughter, and Hear, hear)—still he seemed to
have no objection to transfer the great power which the
Bill would give to the Secretary of State to a Tory suc-
cessor. But if the Nobic Lord would confide in a Tory,-
Ise (Mr. W.) would not. He would not oppose the in-
troduction of the Bill, but he would oppose it in every
future stage.
Col. SIBTHORP thought the Bill unconstitutional.
It was made necessary only by the misconduct of the Go-
vernment, and the whole responsibility of it should rest on
the shoulders of the Secretary of State. He found that
the 9bject of the popular indignation in the country was
the .eformers. The first windows broken by the mob
in Newcastle-upon-Tyne were those of the Editor of
the Tyne Mercury—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—for
he was one of those Reformers who made promises to the
people and then deceived them.—(Laughter.) He heard
they were also to pull down Earl Grey's statue.
When the Ministers saw what their misconduct had done,
they should have made way for those who could do the
public business. Now they were in for a pretty cont.
fortable thrashing, and he hoped they would get in--
( Laug'ver.)
1 Mr. FOX MAULE. in reply to Captain Gordon said,
he had no doubt his Noble Friend would extend the mea-
sure to Scotland, if he should find the county gentlemen
there in favour of it, as those of Eagland and Wales had
expressed themselves. He was glad that the Hon. Mem-
der for Maidstone had spoken on this question in that
manner, because it was evident from the conduct of that
i Hon. Gentleman that he would rather see the country in
a state of riot ant had been at Birmingham—
Several Several Members here rose to order.
The SPEAKER said it was decidedly out of order to
)impute motives to an Hon. Member.
Mr. F. MA ULE was not imputing motives, he was
i only drawing a conclusion, and contended that, according
I: to the rules of the House, he was strictly in order in doing
so. He would say that after the vote which he had seen
I the Hon. Member give in that House, when a town was in
such a state of riot that the Government had actually
deemed it necessary to send down and ask for the establish-
ment of a police in that town—seeing the opinion expressed
, by the Hon. Member, and looking at the vote he had
I given,:he could not imagine anything except that the rioters
had the sympathy of the Hon. Member.
1 Mr. WA K LEY rose to order. The Right lion.
iGentleman had referred to a vote given on a previous
occasion. Ho had also voted with the Right Hon. Member
who had been attacked. He had not voted against a police
I
force being eatablished—he had spoken in favour of it ; he
Ihad merely voted that they should not take the Order of
the Day, and this the Hon. Gentleman knew well.
fI Mr. FOX MA L-LE again rose, and was about to pro-
steed, but was met by loud cries of " Order, order, Chair,
chair," in the midst of which he resumed his seat.
Mr. HUTT would not have taken any part in the
I discussion, had it not been for the observations of the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln relative to the
I recent occurrences at Newcastle. lie would now read to
I the House a letter he had received, detailing the occur..
rences which hod happened there.—( The Hon. Gentle-
man here read the letter.) From this it was evident that
I the riot had no connection whatever with politics;
I still less could it be referred to any acts of her Ma-
Il jesty's Government.—(Hear.) He had also been pleased
to attack the Mayor and Dr. Headlam ; those gentlemen,
although they differed from the Hon. Member in opinion,
were men of intelligence, and had executed their duty on
that occasion ?ea manner which did them the highest credit,
! every one who had the pleasure of their acquaintance would
agree that there did not exist in the kingdom two gentle-
! men more attentive to the preservation of peace and
I good order, or more zealous for the public good. With
! regard to the question before the House he had always
i understocd that the present inefficient state of the rural
l constabulary was so notorious as to be subject for laughter
' when it was mentioned, and ail that the Noble Lord pro-
posed to do was to render that police efficient, leaving it
lunder the controul of the Magistrates. As to the neces-
sity of this he would refer the House to the state of the
Icity of Durham, where the Magistrates had been obliged to
apply for military assistance, which had been, refused by the
commanding officer unless they provided saseh places fur the
troops as would prevent their being deraoralized by being
1 quartered in a large town. This they. were unable to do,
and if tnis Bill passed there wouiabe no necessity for
their so doing. He wished soinet..ning could be done, with
a view to reforming the system tf appointing Magistrates,
so as to place them under mauler controul. The measure
met with his entire concurrmatae, and he should support the
proposition of the Noble Lord.
Colonel S I FIT HOP. c. explained.
Mr. PA K INGT O,N would regret greatly if the present
debate assumed an, angry or narty colour.—( Hear, hear.)
He entirely c(Mzeurred with what had fallen from the
Noble Lord relative to the Report, in which the Speaker
had taken 'do great a share, but be could not agree with him
.1 in the olesereations he had made relative t , the beer shops.
i In the general tenor, however, of the observations of the
! Noble Lord with respect to the improvement of the county
police, he most cordially concurred. The parish consta.
i bles 'were no longer of service under the altered state of
society as it at present existed. He wished to know from
1 the Noble Lord whether the measure he had now brought
1
) foi ward was to be a permanent one, because, it it was, he
I felt bound to say the present was not the proper time to
I bring it under the attention of the House.--( Hear. )
If the Noble Lord only meant it as a temporary
imeasure, he for one was not inclined to give any opposition
to it. As far, however, as he had heard, he was not aware
i of any disposition to tumult in the rural districts,- that spirit
i had hitherto been confined to the large towns. Under such
circumstances, therefore, he thought it would be better for
Government to have let the recess pass over in order that
they might have had time to bring forward in the next
ossion a well-digested measure, founded on the Report to
which he had referred.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM did not think it right to re-
main silent after hearing the opinions expressed by the
I Hon. Member for Maidstone and the Hon. Member fur
It
Finsbury. It had been said that tnis measure was nothing
imore than a declaration of war on the part of the Govern-
ment against the people. He could not agree to that as-
sertion ; so far from its being an offensive, he considered it
'to be a defensive measure, and one that was essentially
necessary to put down that insurrectionary spirit which was
making great inroads upon society and the security of
property.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARD said that there existed voluntary organiza-
tions in different parts of the country which were calculated
to supply the object of the present Bill. There was that
species of organization ex:sting in Barnet, but it was not
supported by any rate levied on the inhabitants. He was
anxious to see some control given to the rate-payers over
the funds for the payment of the police force, as that would
contribute in a great measure to its efficiency. He regret-
ted to hear the observations of the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury, who, a few weeks since, when speaking of a police
force for large towns, said they were most essential—in fact
as essential as a coroner, or as medical assistance. Why, the
, same argument applied to the rural districts.--( Mr. Wak-
ley—. t A good system.") He agreed that a good system
was the most essential, but if they could not obtain that,
they should talob the best that could be obtained. Let
them redress the grievances of the people in the first in-
stance—let them put down spoliation and violence, and
then adopt whatever improvements may be subsequently
found advisable. Ho cordially supported the measure.
Mr. PL UMPTRE said very hard words had been used
on both sides of the House with regard to the measure.
It had been called tyrannical and unconstitutional, but he
did not think it merited any such terms, and it should have
his support.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WALLACE said the appointment of a police for
I the county districts w-43 a question of the utmost impor-
tance, and the construction of such a body required great
care. He did mot think the appointment of a rural
, police should be left to the Justices of Peace. If
that were so, it ALould not give the satisfacti
which Such a mea-Ere was otherwise calculated to
to
confer,-._( Hear, hear.) It was well known that
the Magistrates of counties were appointed by the Lords
Lieutenant of these counties, and that the private friends
and Connections of these Lords Lieutenant were generally
seleeted for these situations. He was satisfied it would
conduce to the peace and good order of the country if a
proper System of
country. G t police was established throughout the
rea apprehensions were entertained by Re-
formers generally respectingthe -•1' If cts of a general
r °lies force. h esi
.e C
For his own part he felt no such fear, nor
did he believe that sincere and reflecting Reformers ever. shrunk from the utmost
publicity of all they said and did, and
good order was quite as necessary for the success of reforms
as for the general happiness and prosperity of the people
themselves. Few persons had engaged more in public poli-
tical meetings than he bad d o n'eaudf hhe had always ob-
served that the success of the objects
observed
meetings was
in proportion to the good order
well recollected attending two immense utthem. He
in Glasgow, to attend which the numerousP
alendmeetings
police of that city were specially invited; the objectefficient
doing so being to protect tbe real Reformers from
of
the machinations of the spies and informers woll'ne
infest such as,emblages ; thus showing that the
working classes, who alone compose] mie of those
oelforocre.
enormous meetings were not averse to
ap
l wellic
ganized police force. He thought that the.
for the country should be farmed from districts instead
of counties; and that in this way the influence of 0e
Magistrates of towns, and the great body of the people
would be brought to bear upon the selection of proper
parsons, so as to counteract the influence of the County
Magistracy, which is so much dreaded. An Hon. Mem-
ber had suggested that Scotland should be included in
tha measure. He believed the populous part of Scotland
would be benefited by an efficient police, and was satis-
fied that the oreanization of such a force should be in dis-
tricts of counties having the large towns for their centre.
Although he could not approve of all the machinery of
the present measure, he was satisfied that something must
he dose immediately in order to maintain good order and
tranqhillity, and therefore would support the Bill of the
Noble Lord.
Mr. ;LANGDALE would agree to the Bill if it were
to be temporary. He knew a more efficient police were
necessary in many districts, but he feared that the police

I system might be carried to extremes. It would be apt to
degerate into a spy system, in the humbler classes of the
country.
Sir T. FREMANTLE could have no objection to
this treasure, as it was permissive as regarded the county
Magistrates.
Mr. FIE LDEN opposed the Bill. He apprehended
the rural police would be assimilated to the borough police,
which were armed and accoutred. The appointment of
the force would lead to increased dissatisfaction amongst
the people, who would regard them as spies.
Mr. D A RBY said, on the part of the industrious
classes, it was not the suffering part of those classes who
had been guilty of sheep stealing, but the bad characters
of the country.
Mr. BROTHERTON considered there was no more
important duty which a Government could discharge, than
the preservation of the public peace; in the preservation
of which none were more interested than the working
classes. He thought it would be better that the consent
of the rate-payers or guardians should be obtained,. before
the magistrates should have the power of establishing a
police. He supported the Bill.
Mr. A. YATES thought the establishment of a police
desirable, in order to do away with the necessity that
existed for keeping a large military force in the manufac-
turing districts. He thought that none who had read the
Report of the Commissioners, could object to the intro.
duction of the Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL stated, in reply, that he was glad
to find the subject had been discussed in a spirit very dif-
ferent from the one in which the debate had been opened
by the lion. Member. It appeared from what had fallen
from the Hon. Members for Oldham and Finsbury, that
they considered the liberty of the subject to consist in the
facility of stealing sheep with impunity. But it was evi-
dent that the poorer classes would be the greatest gainers
by this measure, as they stood more in nee of protection
for their cottages than the man who could employ labou-ers
and servants to watch for him. lie did not intend this
Bill as a temporary measure, because he thought if Magis-
trates knew that after a certain time the power was to cease,
they would hardly take upon themselves the responsibility
of organising a system of police. If they were to look to
a pollee force only, perhaps the best plan would be to
have one uniform system, under one head—but when a
measure of police was to be combined with the institutions
of a country, like this in which almost all the existing in-
stitutions were local, it was bet•er that the police should
also be under the control of the local authorities, in order
that it might harmonize with the other institutions of the
country. With regard to the disposition to riot manifested
in some parts of the country, he believed that, instead of
being employed to put down the people, a police force
would be found to be a protection to the majority of the
people; because a minority by combination and arming
tnemselves, had it in their power to intimidate the majority
not so combined, and not so armed, and who therefore stood
in need of the asssistance of some such force as this to
prevent them being obliged to submit to the wishes of a
minority, and for the protection of their lives and proper-
ties. The Hon. Member fur Finsbury was mistaken in
supposing that the Hon. Member for Tamworth's Bill was
argued a 3 a party question ; and he was glad to find that
the present Bill would not be so argued.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill ; and upon
the question that Lord J. Russell and the Chancellor of
the Exchequer be instructed to bring in the Bill,
Mr. DISRAEL I said that all he had—heard had
ccnfirmed him in the accuracy of the position which
he had taken with respect to this Bill.—( Cries
of " Hear.") Both this measure and the one introduced
last night had been introduced upon misrepresentation.
With respect to the observations that had b:en made as
to the course he had pursued, he would leave them to be
made use of by Under Secretaries of State, considering
them to be gross, vulgar, and ill-bred.—(" Order.")
The SPEAK ER said the Hon. Member must be aware
he was out of order in applying such terms to a Member
of that House.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. D'ISR AEL I would bow to the Chair, but he must
repeat that he considered the Bill had been introduced
upon misrepresentation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had been most liberal in his comments upon him ; how he
had become Chancellor of the Exchequer, or how he and
his colleagues contrived to get their seats on the Treasury
Benches he did not know ; but they were like the flies in
Amber, the only wonder was how the devil they got there.
—( Laughter.) Unless the Noble Lord made some ex-
planation on the state of the country, he would take the
sense of the linuse upon a further stage of the Bill.
Lord John Russell and the Chancellor of the Exchequer
were then directed to bring in the Bill.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock