The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-04 00:00:00

the Right Hon. Gentleman, he thought he heard him say that,
though there was no legal, there was a sort of moral right to
renewal on the part of the lessees of such property. Had the
Right Hon. Gentleman adverted to the fact tint there might
be instances in which a young Bishop would run his life against
a lease, whilst, with respect to the leases of Deans and Chap-
ters, there was almost always a moral certainty of the leases
being renewed, as there would be always one or two old per-
sons whose interest it would be to renew them. The
marketable title, then, of one species of this property was
higher than that of the other. He would also wish to know
whether they were to be estimated by their new value or on
an average of time, as was done with regard to tithes. He
also wished to know whether it was intended to make any
regulations as regarded improvements, in the same way as
was done in the Irish measure of four years since. There
were instances of persons who had in short intervals expended
thousands upon renewals of leases, in which case, by the Irish
measure, allowances were to be made. He would also ask
whether it was not the intention of Government to allow some
time—he would not ask for a large extension, but a reasonable
time--fur the propositions contained in the measure to circu-
late through the country. There was, especially in the county
with which he was conversant, a large portion of property of
the description to which he had alluded, and it would be de-
sirable to allow time for Members to communicate with their
constituents upon the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said with
regard to the first question, it was the intention to deal as
equally as possible with both species of property. As to the
second question, relative to allowances, it would be difficult to
give an answer without going more into detail than would at
present be advisable. The principle which it was intended to
go upon would be such as would make it the interest of the
lessee to conform to it. He could not say that the condition
of the Irish measure would be introduced. As regarded the
question of time, the best way would be to resume the Com-
mittee on Friday next, when, if the House agreed to the reso-
lution, the Bill would be printed and circulated.
Mr. GOULBURN said it was important, even to those
who acquiesced in the principle of the measure--he, however,
was not one—to know what its principle exactly was. If he
understood his Right Hon. Friend it was proposed to divest
the Archbishops and Deans and Chapters of their properties
in Church lands, and vest them in a Commission, and to make
provision for giving them annuities equivalent to the full value
of the lands when they ran out of lease.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Quiteso.
Mr. GOULBURN—There was another point. Was he
correct in supposing that the proposition was to give to parties
during their existing interests all the powers which they at
present possessed of making leases?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No; it
only referred to existing Bishops, who are to have either that
or the alternative of a fixed income. If they choose to sub-
stitute liens without leases their whole receipts would be con-
tinued as now.

Mr. G OULBURN—The calculations will affect Deans
and Chapters more than Bishops. These latter grant leases
on their own lives only, and the provision with regard to
them may he more easily delayed. In the interim out of what
funds are they to be paid, and how are the Church-rates to be
provided for ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under-
stood to say that funds for this purpose would be provided by
the falling in of leases and the sale of annuities ; and if these
were found insufficient, which he did not apprehend, any de-
ficiency could be made up from the Consolidated Fund, on the
security of the Church lands.

Mr. G OULB URN wished further to know whether it was
proposed to take from the trustees of bequests in particular
places, the government of the funds for the repair and erection
of churches which they were appointed to manage, and vest
the property in the hands of the Commission, to be appointed to
general purposes?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad
that the question had been distinctly put, as it had been ad-
verted to by the Right Hon. Member for Oxford University.
Nothing could be more unjust than that parochial estates, de-
vised for local purposes, should be seized and applied to ge-
neral ones. It was desirable, however, that there should be a
power of general superintendence, as, for instance, it would be
right that a Bishop, aware of a fund intended for local pur-
poses, should have' authority to see that it was properly applied
before any additional grant was made from the general fund.
—( Hear, hear.) This was the only extent to which it was
proposed to empower the Commission. It had never entered
into his mind otherwise to interfere with bequests intended for
purely local purposes.

Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know the amount of salary
which was to be given to the paid Commissioners.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be necessary to have three paid Commissioners in Lon-
don, and he was anxious that the salary should be fixed at the
lowest possible amount. The salary was a matter over which
he wished the House should have controul, as it could decide
in proportion to the manner in which the duties should be per-
formed.--( Hear.

Colonel' SIBtHORP was understood to express himself
not satisfied with the answer.

Mr. RIC HA RD S observed that the copyholds on lives had
not been alluded to, and wished to know how they wcre to be
affected.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
a reference to the report would show that this did not properly
enter into the computation. They formed a distinct branch.
Mr. HUME approved of the Ministerial measure. He dif-
fered from the proposition made four years ago by Earl
Spencer, which went to throw the Church-rate on the Conso-
lidated Fund. It was only continuing the same rate in an-
other form, which still rendered Dissenters liable to the pay-
ment of it. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for East
Kent (Mr. Plumptre) thought that the present would not
prove a healing measure, whilst he thought, on the con-
trary, that it would be most so. It was most unjust, he
thought, towards the Dissenters, to make them support" the
fabric of the Church, and he considered the. Church would
be the better for being left free to support itself.—( Hear.)
It had been used as an argument against the abolition
of Church-rates, that the Dissenters would, on obtaining it,
demand ulterior measures. Nov,it was most unfair to deny
what was just in consequence of ultimate intentions. He
had been present at a meeting of four hundred delegates
from the country, seeking to obtain this relief; and he could
assure the House, from what had there transpired, that the
Dissenters had no intention of pressing further claims at the
present moment.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and " Oh,
oh," from the Opposition.) Yes, he said at the present mo-
ment ; for he did not know what change might take place in
opinion.—( Renewed cries.) In these days of change he
should not be at all surprised at the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth, if he was sitting on that side of the
House, bringing forward measures of reform, outdoing and
outstripping all that had hitherto been done.—( Hear, hear,
and laughter.) What had been called the rights of the
Church was the right that the clergy had of putting their
hands into the pockets of Dissenters. He thought that the
measure would be the means of putting an end to this, of the
differences existing in the country, and assuage the hostility
now entertained in the country against the Established Church.
The Dissenters were nearly equal to the members of the
Establishment.—(Cries of " Oh," and " No.") He would
be perfectly satisfied, on a proper opportunity, to come to the
discussion on that point. He looked upon the tax as a mark
of degradation. With respect to the present measure, there
was only one point upon which he was not clear. He did not
think it was just that when a debt existed in a parish, which
had been raised on the credit of Church-rates, the debt which
might remain for 30 or 40 years to come should be paid by the
Dissenters. He thought it should be paid out of the property
of the Church. He believed that in the Bill brought forward
by Lord Spencer this was provided for.—(Cries of '6 No.")
Whether it was so or not was no matter, if it were just. The
lion. Member concluded by expressing his hope that the
measure would be passed triumphantly, and that it would con-
tribute to the peace of every parish.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL asked some question with respect
to pew rent which we did not distinctly hear, to which
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the Bill itself, when printed, would give the best explanation;
but that the gravamen of the whole plan was to give greater
accommodation, and particularly to the poor.
Mr. JAMES expressed his entire approbation of the plan.
Mr. FOSTER was fearful that the plan proposed as re-
lated to the claims upon the Church-rates by different pa-
rishes would be a constant source of contention. Lord Spen-
cer, in 1834, had placed those charges upon the Consolidated
Fund.

her for Liverpool, that it infringed on the rights of the poor.
If the Noble Lord had said that it infringed on Church pa-
tronage, or on the means of making provision in the Church
for younger scions of the aristocracy, he would have said what
was nearer to the truth. If the Dissenters were satisfied with

the measure in his (Mr. Gillon's) opinion the Church had
every reason to be so to.

Air. TENNYSON D'E YNCOURT expressed his full
concurrence in what had fallen from his Hon. Colleague, both
in regard to the measure as it stood, and the improvements
which might be effected in it by making the surplus available
for the discharge of debts contracted in erecting new churches
generally. He trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would give it his best consideration. The measure proposed
by Lord Spencer had a provision to that effect in it ; and in
his opinion the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman would
be incomplete if it were not included in it also.
Mr. PALMER said that the object of his Majesty's Minis-
ters in the measure before the House, as well as in every other
measure affecting the Church which they proposed, was the
degradation of the Establishment, and the affirmation of a prin-
ciple of liberalism in religion throughout the whole country.
One of its consequences would be to convert the high digni-
taries of the Church into mere State pensioners. Every mea-
sure of the kind was calculated to destroy true religion in the
country.

Sir R. PEE L—l have not the slightest wish to enter into
any discussion of the details of this measure, because I think
it better to reserve all discussion until a period when some
practical result can arise from it. In the intervening time op-
portunity will be afforded of considering the details of the
plan, which, I must confess, I do not think by any means so
simple as they appear to have been found by the Hon. Mem-
ber opposite.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE (across the House)--I said the
principles, not the details.
Sir R. PEE L--But as I do not think that the present op-
portunity should be let pass I shall just make an observation or
two on a few of the details, in the hope that they may have
the effect of calling public attention more pointedly to the
general measure. I fully concur with the proposition laid
down by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer as
to the necessity of an Established Church in this kingdom.
With the principle I have no fault whatever to find : my only
doubt on the subject is in regard to the measure as a whole—
that is, whether it be a practicable measure or not. The
Right Hon. Gentleman repudiated the voluntary principle ;
and he further observed, that he thought it as incumbent on
the State to support an Established Church as it was to sup-
port an army or a navy. With the kiln proposition of the
Right Hon. Gentleman in this respect I also agree. But
what is the inference to be deduced from his words ? " It is

Lord SA ND ON said, that the declaration of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, as to what might be the future inten-
tions of the Dissenters, which he gathered from tho four hun-
dred delegates, was calculated to destroy the little satisfaction
be had experieuced from the speech of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. Those future intentions he could only suppose
to be a determination not to rest until the Established Church

was removed. The Right lion. the ChanceitOrOitheEx-
chequer had asserted that this measure for the abolition of
Church-rates was nothing more than giving a privilege to pa-
rishes to tax themselves. Now, he would appeal to the
lion. and Learned Gentleman opposite the Member for the
Tower Hamlets (Dr. Lushington)—himself a Judge—whe-
ther the debt of 800,0001. could have been created if
this were the case ? How could such an amount be
raised on such a sandy and insecure foundation ? He
looked upon Church-rates differently. They were always
reckoned in purchasing an estate, and were an ancient bur-
then on the land of the country. The Dissenters might no
longer consent to pay them ; and although he would willingly
remove all heartburnings upon the subject he did not think it
deSirable to proceed in the way proposed. He said this more
especially when he looked at the Report of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners, among whom were sonic of the members of
his Majesty's Government, where it was declared that the sup-
port to the Church was inadequate on a fair estimate. And
yet this resource of Church-rates was cut from under the
Establishment, while it was stated that no population under
.500 were worth attention, and that for above that amount a

as incumbent on the State," he says, "to provide a religious
establishment for the community as it is to provide an army or
a navy for their defence." What, I say, is the inference to
be drawn from the Right Hon. Gentleman's words ? The
moment you agree to that principle you completely exclude
any thing like a conscientious view of the case—you banish
it from consideration altogether. It is never inquired of indivi-
duals what their private views are of the policy or expe-
diency of peace or war ? They are called on to give their
share of the tax imposed on them and asked nothing further,
neither arc their objections any more heeded. If it is equally
incumbent on the State to support a Church Establishment as
it is to support an army for the prosecution of that war, so is
it equally just, and right, and proper that it should be in-
cumbent on all classes to support one as well as the other.—
(Hear, hear.) This is the only fair inference which can be
drawn from the Right Hon. Gentleman's observations. The
Right Hon. Gentleman also said that it was incumbent on
the State to provide free sittings and Church accommodation
generally for the poor. Does the measure ho has proposed
effect those objects? It does not. Why? It formed a part
of Lord Althor•p's measure on the subject of Church-rates.
Oh, but the Right lion. Gentleman takes .credit to himself

Clergyman should receive 2001. a year. 235,0001. was now
the deficiency, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed
to squeeze out 130,0001. to meet it, leaving a deficiency of
100,0001. This was the existing number of parishes, and
where were they to look for the means for supplying the defi-
ciency? Not, it appeared, from Parliament, but out of the
revenue of the Church itself. lie could not allow a week to
pass without protesting against this measure, which was to
deliver up the dormant property of the Church to relieve
scruples which his Majesty's Ministers themselves considered
unreasonable, and to relieve the land of a burden which had
existed from time immemorial. He was anxious for a settle-

ment, but he did not consider himself bound to any settlement
that might be proposed. Because he acquiesced in a propo-
sition of the sort a few years ago, it did not follow he should
do the same with the present, for it was evident that he could
not rely long on the forbearance of the Dissenters with respect
to ulterior measures. Should the measure drop through this

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 4, W.

, year, there was no certainty that the next principle advocated
would be that there should be no Established Church.
Lord HO WICK was quite willing to discuss the question;
but he was particularly anxious to correct some misconceptions
into which the Noble Lord had fallen. The Noble Lord had
found fault with the description given by his Right Hon.
Friend, of Church-rates giving the power to the people to
tax themsclves.—( Lord Sandon here said something in expla-
nation.) If the people did not tax themselves, how came it
that parishioners came to a vote in vestry, and had the power
of refusing a Church-rate ? Was there any similarity in
that to tithes? Could the farmers refuse the payment of
tithes, and if they did, had not the clergy their remedy in
a court of law ? The tithe of the Church was an ancient
burden upon the land; but Church-rates were the ancient
mode of the parishioners taxing themselves. " How could
it be so," said the Noble Lord, " when there is a debt of
800,000/. ?" He would ask, in return, how could the people
of this country—of England, Scotland, and Ireland—tax them-
selves, when they owed a debt of 800,000,0001. ? If the one
debt existed, so might the other, and each on the same prin-
ciple of self-taxation. The Noble Lord, too, said that Church-
rates were always considered in the purchasing of land. No
doubt they were, and if he were to go and hire a house in
London, the first question he would ask would be what were
the amount of the poor-rates, the Church-rates, and other
taxes. So it was with land. The next point of which the
Noble Lord complained was that the measure went to take
away the dormant property of the Church, and thus deprived
it of the only made by which it could be further extended by
the augmentation of Church livings ; and in support of that
he read several extracts from the report of the Church Com-
missioners. He (Lord Howick) was sorry that the Noble
Lord had not sufficiently considered the question, for if had, he
would have seen a few pages further on, in that very Report,
that the Commissioners had suggested the means of applying
the dormant property of the Church. He did not mean the
Members of his Majesty's Government alone who were on that
Commission, but also the Ecclesiastical members ; and that
his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
merely embodied these suggestions in his measure. The
measure went not affect the capital of the Church, though it
gave relief to the whole country. The Noble Lord had said
that it only relieved the Dissenters, who formed but a small
minority in the country, and that it was solely a concession to
then clamours. The Noble Lord was mistaken. Such mo-

tives had never actuated his Majesty's Ministers, though they
were of course anxious to relieve all classes of their fellow-sub-

jects. Their motive mainly was to relieve Churchman, as well as
Dissenter ; and to strengthen and support the Church. Was
the Noble Lord unaware of the fact that Churchmen were in
many cases as much opposed to Church-rates as Dissenters ?
Did he not know that, in the recent opposition to them at
Manchester, a great number of Churchmen were concerned ?
With those facts staring him in the face could the Noble Lord
insist longer on his assertion, that the measure was a conces-
sion to the clamours of the Dissenters, and that it would give
relief only to a small minority in the country ? It was a sa-
crifice of nothing but those obstacles which stood in the way
of the utility and effectiveness of the Church. In the amount
of revenue applicable to the purposes of the Church, he
( Lord Howick) was bound to say that the Church itself
would be materially benefitted. His Right Hon. Friend had
made his calculations on a supposition so unfavourable to the
country, and so favourable to the Church, that there was no
manner of doubt that in the course of a very few years a
large surplus would accrue, applicable to the extension of
Church accommodation, and the increase of small livings,
to both of which, like the Noble Lord, he (Lord Howick)
attached no inconsiderable importance. Under these
circumstances, he (Lord Howick) was quite willing that
,the question should be debated on the distinct grounds
of the good it would do to the Church. To the
voluntary principle he expressed his most decided dis-
sent, and hi: attachment to the Established Church,
which he believed rested on the affections of the people as
a basis, was not, he trusted, less than that of the Noble Lord.
So much for the Noble Lord's speech. With respect to the
reply of his Right Hon. Friend on the subject of pew rents,
which he believed had not been as well understood on the other
side of the House as it was intended it should, he felt called on
to say that in no case would it be proposed unless under the
sanction of the Minister of the parish, and that it was princi-
pally intended for the regulation of the rents in those places
when there were a great many pew lettings.
Lord SANDON said a few words in explanation, which
were inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. E STCOURT expressed a hope that the rights of the
poor would not be sacrificed in those parishes where the project
of pew rents was to be applied.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
wish it to go forth to the country that even the probability of
such was likely to occur. In that case, and in all others, there
was a provision in the Bill which he hoped to be allowed to
bring in for a sufficient number of free sittings, so far as the
poor were concerned.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL made an observation or two
which were not heard in the gallery.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said the principle of the measure
was so simple and just, that he had no hesitation in thanking
his Right Hon. Friend, on the part of his constituents, for it.
That principle was one which he was sure all would approve
of the Church revenues responsible for the repairs of
the Church without charging them to the revenues of the
country, or fixing them upon any one class of the people. The
details of the measure were no doubt complicated ; but the
plan was simply this—Church-rates were abolished for ever
without doing an injustice to anybody. If the calculations
were correct, the lessees of the Church, the only parties who
could by possibility suffer in case of the worst, were likely to
be placed in a better position than before. As to the Bishops,
and Deans and Chapters, he (Mr. Duncombe) did not believe
that they would be so sordid as to avail themselves of the ad-
vantages exposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman who moved
the resolution in his speech to the Committee. With regard
to the measure itself, he (Mr. Duncombe) should only repeat
his conviction that it would meet with the universal approba-
tion of every farmer and householder in the kingdom—all of
whom would be greatly benefitted by it.
Mr. HAWES was not disposed to disparage the measure,
and he wished he could give it the same unqualified appro-
bation as the Hon. Member for Finsbury. But he was bound
to say that Church-rates would not be abolished by it in the
borough which he represented. In that borough certain debts
had been incurred over and above the estimated amount in
the building of ne w churches. These were at present
charged on the Poor-rate, and collected as part of it. Now
if there were to be any surplus remaining he ( Mr. Hawes)
would put in his claim for a share of it—(Laughter)—to re-
lieve these debts ; and he thought that that claim should have
a preference over the extension of accommodation, or the aug-
mentation of small livings. With the single exception of that
point, to which he begged to call the attention of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, he fully approved of the measure;
and was quite satisfied that the country would do the same,
and be grateful for it also.
Mr. GIL LON, on the part of the people of Scotland, ex-
pressed his satisfaction with the measure. It was based upon
justice, and would have the effect of improving Church pro-
perty. He denied the assertion of the Noble Lord the Mem-