The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-16 00:00:00

EVENING EDITIO

i engaged in p-eserving the peace of the town. g: Were they
• or score they not right in havina thus devoted themselves to
preserve the public peace? He concluded that such was
the case, and it wnn!d be for them afterwards to make their
statement to Lae Government in such a way as that it could
be acted upon, but they certainly ought not to proceed to
punish upon imperfect accounts received ten hours after
the occurrences had taken place.
The Duke of WELLINGTON would repeat what he
had before stated, notwithstanding the correction of the
Noble Viscount, that the occurrences were known before
twelve o'clock, because he had been shown them ,
in the public Papers. It was said there were plenty
of troops but yet a gross outrage had been committed—
the town had been burnt, houses gutted, and the property
brought out into the streets and consumed ; and he would
again repeat that that peaceable town—that rich manu-
facturing town—was worse treated than any town had I
ever been treated when taken by storm. He said that
from his cwn knowledge, and he recalled the Noble Mar-
, qu:s to correction for venturing to deliver that opinion.
Another statement that had been made was that there
were plenty of troops—that there wa a wagon and
suprrintendant of police, all that they had learnt from the
newspapers, but they knew nothing, and it was clear the
Ministers knew nothing. They had just been informed
by the Ministers, and be would venture to draw this
c mclusion from what they had :toed, that those
Magistrates, who did not bid the troops interfere until the
town was burnt, and the property of the merchants de-
stroyed, were irresponsible—( Hear, hear)—and it ap-
peared (bat there was no means of bringing these
parties to trial. The Noble Earl (Fitzwilla n) had told
their Lordships that a similar misfortune had befallen that
town. \Vhy, it• the town was liable to these unfortunate acci-
dents that was a reason why her Majesty's Ministers should
have taken the utmost precaution to preserve the public peace
What he sai i was, that t sere wero m sans such as issuing
a Sp cial Cornmissiaa of m.,king the sense of the Gcv( en
mew, in regard to those transactions. There might be
an innuiry instituted into the conduct of the magistrat s,
the i'lslioble Marquis knew something, of iYs manner of pro-
ceeding, thouga in a co. t ary serve, something ought to be
done to mark the opinion of Gov• r meet in relation to t sis
ialp.-srunt subject. But it appeared that nobody had any
rigtt to notice any of these things. Their Lordships
should take care what they were about lest they should
fail under the lash of the Noble Marquis. They should
say nothina, in order that the Noble Marquis might not
attack them as unjust, in stating that wrong had been
dore—all 11,2 hoped was ti at he should not have another
opprsr. unity o' waking sir lar observations.—( Cheers.)
The Marquis of L ANSDO WNE had not denied
the right of the Noble Duke or of any other
No.)le Lord to advert the circumstances of the
case or to form au noinion on them—but wkat
ha did say was, with great submission tot`le
Noble Duke that her 111-jasty s uuverrm ort were not
wren; in abstaining• from forming al opinion on the
circumstances which had taken place in the Town
of Birmingham ‘rcthin seventeen hours of the
occurrence, and still more were tl ey n )t wrong in abstain-
ing to form an opine,,, in the present imperfect state of
information, and he still adhered to that opinion, and when
the Noble Duke at ted that wrong hod been done,
it was very easy so aln i- that. tut it was not
so easy to form an opinion as to wl o were the wrongdoers
in seventeen hours. He would say Oa, it was the duty of
her Majesty's Government not to form a hasty Opinion, but
to form a deliberate aid a mature opinion before they pro-
ceeded.—( Cheers.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON was sure the Noble
Marquis would not willingly or knowingly have misrepre-
seated what he had said. Ile had not alluded to the
magistrates. hut to another set of men, to thOse who
had been guilty of riots a few days ago. Those person:
ought to nave peen brought to trial by this time, by means
of a Special Commission. or by so.ne et e m ide.
The Marquis of LANSDO WNE—There are a great
number of persons taken up, and awaiting their trial.
The discussion then dropped, and a great number of
Peers left the House.

(LEFT SITTING.)

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. JULY 15.
The SPEAKER took the chair at Four o'Clock.
A Message from the Lords brought up several Bills.
CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER.
' Mr. M ACKINNON rose to move as an amendment to
the clause, disqualifying the City Police Commissioner
from sitting in Parliament, that the following words be in-
' serted in the seventh clause, at the end of the words
" House of Commons," " for the City of London, or for
' any city or borough within the Metropolitan District."
He considered that the clause, as it at present stood,
must have been inserted in the Bill by mistake. It
was perfectly anomalous to insert a clause of general dis-
qualification into a private Bill—it was copied from the
Metropolitan Police Bill, which was a general Bill, and
therefore was properly introduced there, but could not be
with propriety introduced into a private Bill. The Police
Commissioners under that Act were appointed by the
Crown, and were removable by the Crown, and
therefore they were properly disqualified froth sit-
ting in Parliament. But in this case the individual
was appointed by the City of London, and was remova-
ble only, by an address of the City of London. Ile had
heard that this clause had been intended against one indi-
vidual, but as he generally voted in opposition to that in-
dividal, he could not be supposed to have any private
feeling on the question, but he objected to the clauso
as it stood on principle. His amendment would pre-
vent the individual from sitting for any of the metro-
politan districts, including the Borough of Southwark,
because it might be supposed, from his official situation,
such an individual might have undue influence in those
districts. It was a complete anomaly, and if the Right
Hon. Gentleman could show him any instance of a general
disqualification being introduced into a private Bill, he
would withdraw his amendment ;_ otherwise, he should
press it, and take the sense of the House on the subject, as
it might establish an inconvenient and dangerous precedent.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the amendment. He did
not see why the Commissioners should be prohibited from
sitting in Parliament any more than the Recorder, the
Common Sergeant, or the Lord Mayor. The citizens of
London wished to put the police force under a gentleman
with whom they had been connected for many years, and
in whom they had great confidence—that gentleman was
the Hon. Member for Southwark, and his belief was, that
this clause was directed against that Hon. Member. He,
therefore, opposed the clause.
Mr. F. MAUL E could not agree to any alteration in the
clause. The Hon. Member who had last spoken had placed
him in rather a delicate p.sition by the insinuation he had
made—( Hear, bear)—but he could positively state that this
clause had been introduced without reference to any per-
son. The Committee to whom this Bill had been referred
had looked to the Act of the 10th Geo. IV., which regu-
lated the police of Westminster, and it was found in that
Bill there was a clause excluding the Commissioners from
Parliament. It was but right that the citizens of London
should have the whole time of the Commissioner, consider-
ing the salary they would pay him.
Sir. HUME would not say that it did, but be thought it
looked very like as if the clause was intended to apply to
the Hon. Member for Southwark. He doubted very much
whether it would be fair to persevere in this motion. If
the Commissioner was not to be allowed to sit in that
House, he did not see why the Recorder of London should.
Sir J. GRAHAM could not concur in the amendment pro-
posed by the Hon. Member for Lymington. He must there-
fore come to the conclusion that this Officer ought not to
possess a scat in that House. He agreed with the Hon.
Under Secretary of State, that the introduction of an allu-
sion to any particular individual was not in the best possible
taste, and only tended to embarrass the discussion, but
whether it affected the feelings of an individual or not
he thought they ought to agree to a general exclusion.
Mr. D'ISR A ELI said the argument of the Right
Hon. Baronet would go to disfranchise policemen as
voters, and might be used as an argument against every
officer of the State sitting in that House. The Secretary
of State had multifarious duties to perform, was well
paid, and the country was entitled to the whole of
his time.—( Hear, hear.) This question would involve the
discussion of a principle which bad never yet been settled,
the propriety of official functionaries havirg scats
in the House. He entirely agreed with the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny, that the acceptance of office ought not to dis-
qualify from a seat in Parliament.
Mr. VILLIERS agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down. There was no general principle on
this subject laid down at all, and the argument of
the Right Honourable Baronet would apply to a great
many cases. To Lords-Lieutenant and county Magistrates
for instance. No body of men possessed more important
patronage than Lords-Lieutenant, and yet they had seats
is that House ; two-thirds of the Members were county
Magistrates, who possessed the important power of granting
or withholding licenses; and he felt convinced that more
votes were obtained from the fear of having licenses with-
held or from the hope of having them granted, than from
any other cause. If the argument was of any force, it applied
to county Magistrates. As far as he understood, the
reason for these disqualifications, it was horn dread of the':
influence of the Crown ; that did not apply in the present
and the electors would see that the aiillistotionfiete.perTaohne, Corporation would take care not to appoint
Mem-
ber attended to their interests. He should therefore vote
against the clause.
Mr. HAWES supported the clause, and was anxious
that all questions relating to the police should be discussed
without party or political feeling. He objected for several
reasons to the Commissioner having a seat in that House :
the Secretary of State was the head of the department,
and responsible for the conduct of the police. It might
happen that a discussion might take place, and a difference
of opinion be manifested between the Secretary of State
and the Commissioner, and the police would not then be
able to look up to one head alone for orders. He would
have the appointment of the men, and his patronage would
consequently be just as great whatever borough he repre-
sented. The police were intended to act as arbiters be-
tween different parties, and therefore it was important
they should not exhibit party feelings. He utterly dis-
claimed any individual feeling on the subject, having al-
ways supported this clause.
Mr. HARVEY would not permit the accidental and he
was sure well intended reference that had been made to
himself by the Hon. Member for Coventry to induce him
to suppress the expression of his opinion on this measure.
had
The Under Secretary of State had that evening d great
stress on the circumstance that one clause
Common of the Bill
received the sanction of a majority of the
Council,
although that majority was only * majority of one ; but he
hc
had forgot to mention that a motion was made in the Com-
mon Council that the Commissioner should not be quail-
fled to sit in Parliament, but only four Members were
found to vote in support of that motion. The House was
now called on to establish a precedent for interfering with
appointments vested in the people. There was not the
same
zealous anxiety for the security and integrity of that
H House and its Members running through all their legisla-
tion. A Bill had been introduced the other night, giving
to the Judge of the Admiralty Court a salary of 4,0004
a-year. That Bill had been brought in by the Govern-
ment. It was all very well to disclaim all personal inten-