The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON. SATTJRnAY,''JITNE 1. 18:39.

Church and the landed proprietors of England. It
was that party who opposed the war with America,
and the war with the French Republic—who secured
the blessings of the Constitution to the Protestant
Dissenters---and who, at a later period, by unparalleled
sacrifices and exertions, extended the same blessing to
the Roman Catholics. To them, in the seventeenth
century, we owe it that we have a House of Com-
mons ; to theca, in the nineteenth century. we owe it
that the House of Commons has been purified. The
abohtion of the slave trade—the abolition of colonial
slavery—the spread of popular education—the miti-
gation of the rigour of the penal code—all, all ori-
4inated with that party ; and of that party, I re-
peat it, I am a member.—(Cheers.) I look with
pride and with glory on all that they have done
for the cause of human freedom and of honest
happiness. I see them now oppressed, struggling
with difficulties, but still fighting the good fight.
At their head I see men united in spirit and in sen-
timent, as well as in blood, to the champions and
martyrs of freedom. By their side 1 propose to place
myself. Delusion may triumph ; but the triumphs of
delusion are but for a day. They may be defeated ;
but their principles will gather fresh strength from de-
feat. But be it as it will, my part is taken. I will
stand by my old banner while a shred of it hangs to-
gether—l found it the good old cause, as Sydney said
when be shed his blood for it on the scaffold ; and
though deserted, or flouted, or scorned by others, the
good old cause shall still be the:good old cause to me.
Whether I am in Parliament or out of it ; whether I
am to speak with that authority which must belong to
the representative of a great and enterprising commu-
nity, or whether I am to express myself in the humbler
accents of a private citizen, I shall maintain inviolate
my fidelity—my fidelity to the principles, which,
though they may be borne down for a time by senseless
clamour, are yet strong with the strength and immortal
with the immortality of truth—my fidelity to the men
who, however they may be misunderstood and misre-
presented now, I am assured will find justice in a better
age.—(Loud cheers.) Gentlemen, I have done. I
have only to thank you for the kind attention with
which you have heard me ; and to hope, that whether
my principles have met with your concurrence, the
frankness with which I have expressed them has at
least met with your approbation. The Hon. Gentle-
man resumed his seat amidst general cheering, which
lasted for some minutes.

Mr. CADELL said he thought he saw, from thirty
years' acquaintance with the citizens of Edinburgh—
he thought he saw, in the display of the faces of those
before him, something which told him of the response
which the motion he was about to make would receive
—he thought he saw from that meeting, that all the
good steady supporters of Liberal principles in Edin-
burgh would respond to his motion that Mr. Macauley
was a fit and proper representative for the city in Par-
liament.—(Cheers.) There was little necessity for him
to tell in Mr. Macauley's presence, what were his quali-
fications. It was enough to say, that he supported an
Administration who had done more for them in nine or
ten years than had been done by other Governments for
100 years ; and one reason for their weakness, which had
been alluded to by Mr.Macauley, arose from the ingratitude
of the country.—(Cheers and hisses.) He repeated,
they were ungrateful.—(Renewed marks of disappro-
bation.) But he thought he was safe in sayir.g that
they would not be ungrateful to the Hon. Gentleman
who had just addressed them. Another quality in
Mr. Macauley was, that he was a distinguished mem-
ber of society. No man could look into the history of
the three years during which he was in Parliament,
without seeinc, that he had made a distinguished figure.
After some fartherb observations, he proposed that Mr.
Macauley %% as a fit and proper representative in Par-
liament for the eity.—(Cheers and hisses.)
Sir T. D. LAUDER said, that after the eloquent
speech they had heard from Mr. Macauley—so re-
markable for liberality of sentiment and for strength of
argument—(Cheers)—he conceived it would be out
of all taste for him to detain them for a single moment,
but he wished to explain why he was there. They
had so often called upon him on former occasions to be-
come their representative—( Cheers)—which he had felt
it impossible, from private circumstances, to comply
with—that he felt it a kind of duty to keep a watchful
eye on the individual whom they were most anxious to
have as their representative, and to devote his best ser-
vices to see that individual returned.—(Cheers.) He
now called upon them as liberal men to throw away all
their small and petty divisions, as he was doing—for
he went farther than most of them—and to join heart
and hand in returning a Liberal Member. Till he en-
tered the room he had never seen Mr. Macauley, but
no man could have read the literature of his country, or
looked to the political history of the times a few years
back, without knowing that he was a most redoutable
champion whom they were about to return to Parlia-
ment.—(Cheers.) He concluded by seconding the
motion.

Before the motion was put from the Chair,
Dr. GLovea, of St. Pat.ick:equare, rose to ask some
questions. He admitted the extreme candour of Mr.
Macauley, whe had certainly told them all that they
had to expect from him. But he wanted to know, it
he thought the libel laws so bad as he had described
them, why he had allowed them to remain in the sta-
tute-book when he was in Parliament before ? If he had
been so negligent of his duty then, was it likely that he
would be more active in their service ? Dr. Glover

proceeded in this strain, amidst a good deal of Mips

tience and some cheers from the meeting. He con-
cluded by asking if Mr. Macauley was prepared to pro-
pose a vote to the House of Commons of 20 m lions of
money for the education of the people, in which, as we
understood the gentiemem, the Roman Catholic Bi-
shops and priests were not to be allowed to interfere
—( Laughter.)

Mr. MACAULEY said he would not propose any such
sum, for it was greater than the object required ; and
the effect of it would be to produce a job. As to his
observations on the libel laws—if he had been better
acquainted with the proceedings of Parliament, he
would have known that a great part of the time is

taken up with transacting the regular business of the
country ; and that not more than two or three Bills
besides that business can be passed in one year con-
sistent with the rules of the House. When he said that
he bore no undistinguished part in the discussions on
the Reform Bill—the Abolition of Slavery—and the
opening of the China Trade, he confessed that he
thought he needed hardly to give any other reason,
why, during the twenty months—for that was the ex-
tent of actual sitting he was in Parliament, he was not
able to repeal the libel laws.—(Cheers.)
Dr. GLOVER was proceeding to argue the question,
but the noise in the meeting rendered him nearly in-

audible. lie next asked whether he was prepared to

grant a sum of money to the College of Maynooth, or
for Roman Catholic priests visiting prisons, while a
similar grant was denied to the Church of Scotland ?
Mr. MACAULEY said, when the State placed men in
peculiar situations, where they could not have access
to religious instruction, the State ought to provide it
for them, though it was not of such a kind as the State
might approve. This was the case when men were

sent to Prison ; and it was much more so, when soldiers
were enlisted and sent to India. As to the College of
Maynooth, whether it was wise to establish it, he
would not say ; but it was established ; and assuredly
he would strike no blow to put it down.
The LORD PROVOST inquired if any more questions
were to be asked, and no one appearing to do so, he
put the motion proposed by Mr. Cadell, which was re-
sponded to by general acclamation, mingled with hiss-
ing. He then declared the motion to be carried, which
was answered by another shout.
Mr. MACAULEY said he was a little exhausted with
speaking so long, after six years' disuse ; but he had still
enough of breath left to thank them. He proposed
to meet them in smaller electorhl districts, where they
could ask questions more conveniently than in that
large meeting ; and he trusted he should be found to
answer with the same frankness which they had already
admitted in him.—(Cheers.)
On the motion of Sir J. G. CRAIG, thanks were voted
to the Lord Provost for his conduct. in the Chair, and
the meeting separated after giving three cheers for Mr.
Macauley, and three cheers for the Queen.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MA I, 31.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at a little before

ive o'clock.

Lord ASHBURTON presented petitions from War-
minster, and other places, m favour of a uniform rate of
penny postage.
The Marquis of WE STMINSTER presented petitions
to the same effect. _ _

Earl HARE WOOD presented a petition from a place
n Yorkshire to the same cff,!ct.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented a petition from
Stroud to the same effect.

Lord DACRE presented petitions to the same effect.
The Earl of WICKLO W and several other Noble
Lords presented similar petitions.
BRISTOL AND GLOUCESTER RAILWAY.

The Marquis of SALISBURY presented several peti-
tions relative to Turnpike Trusts. On the motion of the
Marquis of Salisbury, the Bristol and Gloucester Railway
Bill was read a second time.
Lord SEGR AVE begged to make a few observa-
tions upon the subject of the motion of the Noble
alarquis. He should in the first place make an
observation or tvve on railways in general, because
unless Railway Bills were watched, and some gene-
ral restriction introduced into them, railways would
become great instruments of tyranny upon, instead of con-
venience to, the public. He would detail a case that hap-
pened on the Gloucester railway, which would show an in-
stance of great tyranny, and which succeeded for a time.
The Great Western Railway was opened now to
the public as far as Maidenhead. There were two
stage coaches which started from Cheltenham to Lon-
don at the same time, and which took moat of
the passengers who travelled by coach on that road.
hi the middle of winter the proprietors of one
of those coaches pat their coaches upon the rails. The
other did nA—they resolved to try which of the coaches
got the most passengers. It was found that the coach that
was put upon the railroad loaded best. The proprietors of the
other coach then determined to put their coach on the rails
also. Mr. Nelson, of the Belle Sauvage, who was a
part proprietor applied to have it put upon the Railway,
and upon the same train with the other coach. The Rail-
way Company distinctly refused to allow that because the
proprietors of the other coach had given them the advan-
tage of their custom first. He was sure their Lordships
would consider that a very hard case.—( Hear.) Things
remained in that way for some time, to the great prejudice
of Mr. Nelson and his co•proprietors, until another of the
proprietors had an interview with the Company or their
secretary, when be succeeded in obtaining his object. In
reference to the present Bill, the second reading of which
hiid just been moved, he the (the Noble Lord) intended
to Wove that it be read a second time this day six months.
First he had a gent objection to the line proposed. There
were two other lines which would be greatly preferable to
the line which the promoters of the Bill had chosen.
one of those lines was by Wooton-under-Edge, which
would pass through the great manufacturing districts.
The other was close by the Severn, which would nut do
a great deal of injury to the property which would be ne-
cessary to be takers for that purpose. But, moreover,
there was one of the best turnpike roads between Bristol and
Gloucester in the kingdom, one of the first rivers for carrying
goods, and for more than half the way there was one of the
most convenient ship canals in England—all of which su-
perseded the necessity of the present Bat. He was per-
fectly prepared to admit that private property and private
convenience must give way to public convenience and
private good ; but he would submit, that before
private property was invaded and abodes ren-
dered uninhabitable, a strong case of public necessity
must be made out. —( Hear, hear.) In such a situation he
himself now stood. It was proposed that this Railway
should pass directly through his property. It was
intended to take land from him of the very best descrip-
tion, and in the highest state of cultivation, without
offering him any recompense at all adequate to
the injury proposed to be done to him. I'here was
One other person in particular, who was situated very
ranch as he himself was, and who belonged to that class of
persons which certainly the Noble Duke opposite was
always anxious to do justice to, he meant the Yeomanry
of England. The individual to whom he alluded
was Mr. James Gurnett, of Bossington Hall. He and
his family had lived in the parishes in the neighbourhood
for between three and four hundred years. His property
consisted of from 80 to 100 acres of the richest and finest
grazing land in this country, upon the produce of which
he and his family lived. It was proposed, that the Rail-
road should go immediately through his property, which
would render 136 property untenable, and his house not
habitable. It might be said that Mr. Gurnett might come in
by Counsel and obtain redress, but their Lordships might as
well tell him to come up and live at the London Tavern
on turtle and champagne. He had enough to support
him, living with his family in the country, but he really
could not afford to pay ten guineas a-day to Counsel.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) He would, therefore, strongly urge
upon their Lordships the hardships of this gentleman's
case. If it was found hereafter that railways were of such
decided advantage to the country, then he (Lord S.) and
any other person whose case was a hard one, would be
obliged to submit. For these reasons he would move that
the Bill be read a second time that day six months.
The Duke of BEAUFORT could not conceive any line
of country in which a railway was so little wanted as be-
tween Bristol and Gloucester; and he would add, that if
any line was required they had taken the very worst line
that could be seleptna_

The Marquis of SALISBURY said his Noble Friend
(LOrd Segrave) had done him 3ustict. in supposing that he
Was most anxious to protect the rights of the landed inte-
rest.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Segrave.) If the fact
of a person not being able to employ counsel was to set
aside every undertaking like the present, he feared it would
be very difficult to improve the internal communication of
the country. With respect to the line being the worst
that could be adopted, all the parties asked was to be al-
lowed to go before a Committee, and prove their case.
Lord BROUGHAM could perfectly well understand
what the position of his Noble Friend (Lord Seagrove)
was, and he thought his case, as well as that of Mr. Gurnett,
extremely hard, when a party at law was attacked by an-
other claiming his property, which might be said to be
the case in the present instance. He was obliged to lay
out his money in his own defence, but if he succeeded, be
recovered his costs from the opposite party. He wished
there was some reform in their proceedings in that
respect, although it could not be done in the present
case. The House of Lords had no power of giving
costs unless the parties made a private arrangement to in-
demnify Mr. Gurnett. He was anxious to call their Lord-
ships' attention to that point—he did not know how they
could throw out the Bill upon the second reading, for that
would be too strong a measure.—( Hear, bear.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH had no doubt that the

public would feel greatly obliged to his Noble at,d
Learncd Friend if he would draw up a clause to be in-
serted in every Act of this sort, which would meet the case
suggested. Of the line he (Lord Ellenborough) knew no-
thing, but he did not think that on the mere two statements
of two Noble Lords, the Bill ought to he thrown out,
when no man could doubt that it was of the greati,s.t im-
portance to the city of Bristol such a Bill should pass.
The existence and prosperity of the city of Bristol might
be said to depend upon it, considering that this
line would be connected with all the no, thern
Nothing could be so injurious as to throw out a Bill on
the second reading merely because an individual Peer said
that his interests were involved, and that he thought a
letter line should be adopted.—( Hear, hear )
The Bishop of GLOUCESTER said that on coming
into the House a petition was put into his hand, signed
by 800 persons, merchants, and owners and occupiers of
land through which this railroad would pass, strongly en-
treating their Lordships to pass the Bill. He thought it
was but right that a question of this kind, in which so many
of her
t‘ iajtsty's subjects were interested, should have a
proper examination in a Committee of their Lordships'
house.
Their Lordships divided, and the numbers were—
For the Bill

Against the Bill

Majority for the Bill

-11

Several petitions having been presented against the
Government scheme of education, and for a penny postage,
The Earl of WI NCH I L SE A rose and said, before the
House adjourned he would beg leave to offer a few ob-
servations, in the hopes of eliciting some information from
tLe Noble Viscount at the head of the Government,
as to the principles which were now to guide that
Government with regard to their foreign, their colonial, and
their domestic policy. Under any circumstances, when a
Government had felt it their duty to resign he should have
been prepared to contend, not only that the people of this
country had a consitutional right to expect an explanation
of the grounds which had led to such a step ; but that if
that Government should return to the offices which they
had abandoned, the country had a fair right to ex-
pect a public announcement of the principles of that
Government—( Hear)—seeing that the act of resignation
and the acceptance of that resignation had put an
end to the former Government. In the existing
state of this country it was most dangerous, and
the experience of past ages had also taught that
constant changes of Government tended to shake the
public confidence and to unsettle the public mind.
He would take as the foundation of his appeal to the
Noble Viscount, the statement of the Noble Viscount
when he surrendered with his colleagues the offices of
the Government ; and when thee Noble Viscount had
stated, that he had not the confidence of the House
of Commons, it could not but be the opinion
of him (the Earl of Winchilsea) and his Noble Friends,
that the Noble Viscount could no longer hold the reins
of Government with honour to himself, with advantage
to the throne, or with benefit to the general inte-
rests of the country. (Loud cries of " Hear,
hear," from the Opposition.) The Noble Viscount had
stated that the result of the division upon the Jamaica Bill
in the House of Commons was such as to render the sue.
cess of the mea‘ure hopeless, and to make it impossible for
him any longer to administer her Majesty's Govern.
ment in a manner satisfactory or beneficial to the
country, and he concluded by saying that there was no
danger to be apprehended from the difficult circumstances
of the country. Now he (the Earl of Winchilsea) would
resigna
untion, andt
whether, he
on had
the a right
p rincipleso
contend that the Noble Viscount's late Government was
tk the oble
altogether extinguished by the acceptance of their
Visco
ofas his lateN Go_
vernment, and whether after his own dec'aration, he
could with benefit to they country, longer conduct the Ad.
ministration.—(
Hear, hear.) In the general situation of
this country, both at home and abroad, he (the Earl of
Winchilsea) saw ground for the greatest apprehension.
With regard to our foreign alliances he feared it would
be found that many of those countries which, at
the termination of the late war, were most favour-
ably disposed towards us, would now, in the un-
fortunate event of war, be the first to raise their
standard against us. And it was impossible to see the
warlike movements of some States, without fearing that
this country was in
great danger of being involved in a
war of which the termination could not be foreseen
nor the results anticipated. Our colonies, both
east and west, were in a situation affording cause for

the deepest alarm, and displayed a spirit of insubordi-
nation which was, in no ordinary degree, portentous.
He knew not what measures of importance the Noble
Viscount was alluding to when he made that declaration.
If they looked at the internal state of the country, whether
as rehiring to Ireland, where there was an organized state
of rebellion and conspiracy, to break off the English
connection and subvert the existing institutions of the
country—if they looked at the most fearful conspiracy
which was now going on it. their own country—a conspi-
racy,of which their Lordships had very little idea, either as
to the extent, or how long and how powerfully the orga-
nizers had been working for the last five years. If they looked
at all these things, and if they found the Minister of
the Crown stating that he was not able to carry out
those measures of energy and of the greatest importance,
as affecting the peace and: tranquillity, nay, the very
existence of the country itself, he asked their Lord-
ships and the country, whether they had not a right
to expect from the hands of that Minister some declaration,
some statement, why, on the 7th of that month, he made a
declaration that he could no longer carry on the affairs of
the country with honour to the Crown or security to the
best interests of the country ; and why, on the 14th of that
month, he should come down and say that be was placed
in a different position.—( Hear, hear.) One of two things
was clear—either that there was an abandonment of princi-
ple on the part of the Minister, or on the part of
his followers. There were three parties among the
followers of the Noble Viscount.—( Hear, hear.) One of
them, lie hoped, having the interest of the country at
heart, although greatly mistaken as to the means they
sought to attain it. Another party boldly declaring that
they were bent on revolutionizing the country, and over-
turning the pure form of Monarchial Government, under
which the people of England had so happily lived, and
from which they had obtained a greater extent of civil and
religious liberty, than was enjoyed in any other country.
With regard to the third party, there was a certain portion
belonging the Roman Catholic Church, on whom political
power had been recently conferred. They conceived that
they were only doing what they conceived to be their duty
in promoting the civil and religious supremacy of that
Church. Although one set of conspirators might deny
any connection with the other, the country would in the
end be the sufferers. It was his firm, conscientious convic-
tion that there was an organized conspiracy going on
throughout the country, to render the people disaffected
with the institutions of the country ; and when, in ad-
dition to that, they saw a Ministry supported as
they were by parties entertaining the most opposite views
and compelled to make concessions to these parties to
secure their support—( Opposition cheers)—without which
they could not exist as a Government for one single mo-
ment, when they saw them driven to advocate measures
which were not only detrimental in themselves, but which
would tend to destroy the peace, the tranquillity, and the
permanent prosperity of the country, it was important that
some explanation of the views and intentions of the Go-
vernment should be given.—( Hear, hear.) He had said
much more than he intended, but he felt the importance
of the position in which the country was at present placed,
and which, from a misunderstanding on the part of the
Sovereign, had led to the downfal of a constitutional and
independent Government. As he said before in that
House, he had no party but his country, and the measures
he had advocated had been advocated from no object but
the welfare and happiness of the country, to which he was
sincerely and devotedly attached. But if the position of
the country was such that a Minister of the Crown could
come down one day and state that he no longer possessed
the confidence of the country, and was unable to carry
into execution the measures which were necessary for the
welfare of the country, he did say that the time was
arrived when it was necessary, in the name of the people
of England, to demand some explanation why they were
now better prepared to carry on these measures than they
were before.—( Cheers. )
Lord MELBOURNE said the question which the
Noble Earl very naturally, and with perfect propriety, has
put, will render it necessary for me to take up but very
little of the time of your Lordships in the observations I
have to make. My Lords, I certainly admit that the Noble
Lord and the House and the country have a perfect right
to expect from me an explanation of those circumstances
to which the Noble Lord has adverted. But I had thought
considering the whole of his speech, and considering the
whole of the circumstances be has stated, that I had al-
ready given to your Lordships that explanation, and that I
had already stated to your Lordships the ground of my re-
signation—grounds which have been perfectly understood,
completely apprehended, and most distinctly and accurately
stated by the Noble Lord. My Lords, I thought I had also
stated very shortly, very plainly, and very simply to your

. .
Lordships those circumstances which induced *Mc to re-
sume office again—circumstances which have already been
discussed in both Houses of Parliament, and made well
known to the country; circumstances which, allow me to say,
even in the continued existence of that state of things which
caused my resignation, and notwithstanding the continuance
of the difficulties by which the Government was sur-
rounded—circumstances of such a nature as made it im-
possible for me, with a due regard to the interests of my
country—impossible for rite as a man of honour,
and of feeling—( Hear, hear, and cheers)—to act in
any other manner than I have done. This is the explana-
tion which I have to give of the conduct I pursued. I
perfectly admit that the causes which occasioned those
difficulties and the change of Government may yet
be undiminished.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Sure I
am that they will not be diminished by any abandonment
of principle on this side of the House, or that the Govern-
ment will be conducted on any other principles than those
on which I understood it to be formed, and througlaut
conducted.—(Hear bear.) Those principles unques-
tionably are principles of .progresssion and reformation. I
have always been in favour of every measure which was in
my opinion for the good and advantage of the country,
but certainly I never was, nor am I now for purchasing, or
for obtaining support, either by bringing forward or by sup-
porting measures which are contrary to my opinions, and
contrary to my conscience. —( Cheers.) That is what I
have understood to be the general principle on which this
Government has been found.—( Hear, hear.) But lam
not myself perhaps a very great friend to de-
clarations on the part of Governments. They are in
general so extremely obvious and so very universal as in
fact to be-admitted and professed by all Governments, and
to have the disadvantage of being interpreted by every
person just according to his own feelings, his own views,
and his own wishes, and often producing subsequent em-
barrasssment anc subsequent disappointment. I am, per-
haps; not a friend to such general statements ; at the
same time I admit that upon occasions like the present it
is, perhaps. as the Noble Lord has stated, necessary that
some declaration of that nature should be made. My
Lords, up.an a former occasion I stated that there was a
censure of which I was indifferent, and of that censure I am
at present perfectly indifferent, but the censure I should be
most sensitive of is that of having deceived any one, or
having given a notion that I professed opinions which I did
not hold or maintain. That, I trust, cannot be said of me.
My opinions upon most of those subjects of popular dis-
cussion which now agitate the public mind are perfectly
well known; they were perfectly well known in 1835, just
as they are at present. I will not declare or repeat them

_ .
on the present occasion; I will only say that all measures
of reformation, which I conceive to be really measures of

reformation, I am a warm and anxious friend of,
but I am not prepared to adopt measures which
arc contrary to my feelings, contrary to my opinions, and
contrary to my conscience, for the sake of gaining the
support of others and of conciliating. The Noble Lord
has adverted to the difficulties with which the country is
surrounded, both internally and externally. I do not mean
to extenuate the difficulties that prevail within our own
country—l do not mean to extenuate the dangers that
exist from the feelings of disorder and tumult which have
been raised and excited within the bosom of this cointry.
I conceive there is at present what appears .11'0 me,
who have not been an inattentive observer,
something of a new feeling and something of
a novel symptom. There is something in the present day,
I know not whether it is more dangerous than in former
times, but the dangers of former times were always glossed
over with something of reformation, and something in the
shape of amendment ; whereas in the present day at public
meetings, and by persons of no small power and no incon-
siderable influence, there has been an open intention de-
clared of plunder, of violence, and of bloodshed. I know
not whether this is 'mere dangerous or less dangerous—l
trust it is less dangerous, because if it be more dangerous we
must suppose that the country is now so infected to the core
that it is impossible we can hope for salvation from any
course of measures that can be adopted. It is true, also,
that great difficulties we have of an external nature—dif-
ficulties adverted to by the Noble Lord, and which it
will be necessary to have brought to your Lordships' most
serious consideration. There are difficulties in many parts
of that great and extended empire which is committed to
your Lordships' guidance, and where, from the feelings that
are excited the seeds of disorder may be expected to germi-
nate. I have but one word to say upon that. Great.changes
have taken place in the Constitution of this country of late
years—changes which have excited a very considerable
degree of alarm in the minds of many who have great
experience of affairs and great knowledge of public mat-
ters. The opinion of the most able and most accomplished
statesman in Europe with respect to us is that they may
do very well in fair weather. They may do very well in
time of peace ; they may do very well in time of tranquil-
lity ; they may do very well when there are no great
financial difficulties—but let us see you in time of war—
let us see you in times of pecuniary difficulties, and then,
let us see how you and your new constitution are.—( Hear,
hear.) Now the remedy for that is to be found in the
wisdom and in the prudence of Parliament—the absence
of party spirit and the manner in which Parliament will be
found to discharge its duties. That is the first
hope to be looked to in respect to those changes
in the Constitution, and I trust that Parliament
will be prepared and ready to meet all exigencies and all
difficulties. But unless there be wisdom in Parliament—
unless there be wisdom and prudence in the people, and a
due regard to common sense, it is rather difficult, I con-
fess, not to share in the apprehensions which it must be acs
knowledged are common to many on the subject. I have
stated now to the Noble Lord the reasons why I have been
induced to take the responsibility of the Government upon
me again ; and in fact, I believe, I have substantially and
virtually answered the question he has put to me.
—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the result of
what has taken place, I am anxious, undoubtedly,
for the sake of the great interests which are at present
committed to my charge—l am anxious for the sake of the
country, but as for myself I am very little anxious. With
respect to the country, I am sure I know not who are the
persons best fitted for power in it. It is reported by
Bishop Burnet, who was a man of great prudence, of great
knowledge of the world, and of a most impartial mind, that
King William said to him on one occasion—" I have often
considered the question between a Monarchial and a Re-
publican Government, and I don't know which is the best.
I think there is a great deal to be said on both sides;
but, though I cannot tell you which is the best go-
vernment, I can tell you which is the worst.
and that is a Monarchy which has not the power to carry
into effect the measures which are good for the country."
Well, now, I am sure I do not know which is the best
Ministry or which is the worst Ministry in itself consi-
dered but this I do know, that unquestionably the
worst Ministry is that Ministry which does not possess

sufficient confidence of the Parliament and of the country
to enable it to adopt these measures which are necessar,
For the good of the country—( Much cheering)—and I
truat for the benefit of the country, that if they c be now
a deficiency of that confidence, the wisdom and the pru-
dence of Parliament and the wisdom of the country at
large, will cause an alteration in that respect.— (Great
cheering.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question that
the House do now adjourn, when—
Lord BROUGHAM rose and said—My Lords, many
considerations disincline and well nigh dissuade me from tak
ing part in the discussion which has been raised by the Noble
Earl on the present occasion. The part which I have
always taken in common with my Noble Friend near me,
in public life, upon great public questions, being always
with them—the habits of intercourse which for four years
prevailed amongst us—the long and sincere personal
friendship which has attached me to them, and still
unites me with them unbroken by the accidental circum-
stance of my having ceased to be in office with them—un-
impaired by the political differences, which differences
alone have severed us for the last two years—but, my
Lords, my devotion to what I deemed the service of my
country—my sense—my.cleep sense of its highest interest,
which I firmly believe to be nearly touched by the pr sant
position of things—my anxiety to discharge my public
duty without regard to any personal hazards or even per-
sonal feelings which might interrupt it—have over-
come those motives which might have otherwised im-
posed silence upon me; for, my Lords, those motives
are greatly increased by the singular peculiarity of our
present position, which though it has not been adverted to
by my Noble Friend to-night, formed the only subject of
his observations, and of the statement made by the Noble
Duke upon the occasion to which he refers, but the No-
ble Earl opposite is the one to whom ho has given, as he
flatters himself, a complete and satisfactory explanation of
the phenomena in the political world, of which he is the
subject.—( Hear, hear)—and of which the Noble Earl has
been the commentator ; and mixed up with that, and stu-
diously mixed up with i 1 by him in his supposed explana-
tion—by all his supporters out of doors ever since that day
—by all the Ministerial Members who have addressed their
constituents—by all the most powerful Ministerial sup-
porters in both parts of the empire who have addressed
large bodies of their fellow-citizens—all, without excep-
tion, have concurred in augmenting the difficulty,
in exacerbating the pain of the feelings of whoever at
this moment would take part in a discussion which yet
they feel they cannot repudiate, because all that explana-
tion—all those efforts to support and prop up the falling
Administration uniformly centred—beginning, continued,
and ending—in one topic and one topic only—not a mea-
sure—not a principle—not an opinion--not anything that has
been done in Parliament--not any course of measures or po-
licy purporting to be pursued henceforth in Parliament, but
the name of the Sovereign of these realms put forward—
( Hear, hear)—has been the only argument brought out
and tendered to the country in lieu of all reasoning, in lieu
of all explanation—and the private individual personal
feelings of that illustrious Princess made the topic of
every riotous meeting that is held—of the still worse
meetings of mobs in the morning of the day—and of
every harangue of all the demagogues who had been called
to the support of the sinking Administratien.—( Immense
cheering.) They have nothing to say of themselves ; they
have no measures to propose—no defence of their policy
to make—nothing but 44 Queen, Queen"--( Hear,
hear, hear)—the feelings of their Royal Mistress—
the Bedchamber quarrels—( Deafening cheers)—with
respect to promotion.—( Much cheering and laugh-
ter.) And that I may sum up all in word—and I take it
fairly and impartially, study, becawe it is the word of a
Noble Friend of mine, and no kinsman, but the word of
a Noble Friend and kinsman of a Noble Friend near me—
the private secretary of the Lord Chancellor—" Sir Ro-
bert Peel's formation of a Government has been beaten by
two Ladies of the Bedchamber."—( Renewed cheering. )
I know that these feelings are natural to man—l know
that an appeal to such feelings in this country never can
be made in vain. But I also feel and know—and at this
moment I feel deeply impressed, though not oppressed,
thank Good, in the discharge of my duties—but it makes
it trebly difficult for me, without incurring the hazard of
giving offence elsewhere in a high quarter—for that is the
unfair—that is the unmanly character of the argument—
( Great applause)—to discuss and to argue touching the Go-
vernment of the whole realm committed to the Queen, that
you are at the same time called upon to discuss it upon
such terms as these ; we take an issue which makes who
ever doubts, or whoever differs from us incur the hazard
of making a personal, an invidious, an offensive opposition
to the Sovereign.—( Much cheering.) My Lords, as I
know my own heart—as I know that no one of her Ma-
jesty's servants—no one the most devoted to her service,
feels a more perfect devotion to that illustrious Princess
than I do ; as no one feels deeper gratitude than I do for
those kind acts of condescension from her, and from her il-
lustrious family which I have had uniformly occasion without
the slightest interruption for one moment,to receive, and to
be honoured and exalted by them—l know that I cannot feel
anythingwhich a man ought not at once openly and publicly
to avow upon that delicate and painful topic. And I also
know there is so much justice, so much kindness of feeling
—so much inflexible candour and integrity swaying that
Royal bosom, that my motives have no risk of being mis-
construed, and that the unmanly and dastardly attempt to
mix up her name with these questions, which I do not ac-
cuse any of my Noble Friends of, but which I do accuse
many of their supporters of out of doors, I am confident
must fail. ( Hear.) The attempt will fail in the
high quarter towards which on the one hand it is
pointed. I know it will fail in another quarter—it will fail
if it was meant to deter me, and if it was meant to deter
others in the discharge of my or their public duty. My
Lords, the general avowal made by men possessed of the'
powers of Government it would appear is not to be highly
estimated, and for the reason which my Noble Friend at
once assigned in his statement, and which he has illus-
trated in his practice, as it may mean little or nothing be-
cause a more vague, useless, fruitless exposition I
have not heard. The statement he has made would
be exactly as good for one man as for another—
( Hear, hear, hear)—for there was not one single word
that my Noble Friend offered that I, differing with him a
little in some things, could not equally as accurately have
said in his place.—( Hear, hear.) Nay there was not a
word offered by him which the Noble Duke opposite, dif-
fering from him much more, could not have said—or which
any body who differed from him could not have said.—
(Cheers.) I hope that nobody present forgets what my
Noble Friend said ; if he does I will remind him of it. He
says—l am a friend of all progressive improvement. I
should like to ask whoever gets up iii this Howe and says
I am enemy of all progressive improvement.— ( Hear, bear,
and laughter.) But he says, lam a friend of all safe mea-
sures of reformation, and if you will only prove to me that
they are safe I will adopt them.—( Laughter.) Why the
Noble Duke's statement was just as satisfactory, who said
that if the wit of man were to be set about devising a new
Constitution it could be hardly ever thought possible for him
to make so good a one as the one we hod unless he were
to take the same.—( Laughter.) The Noble Duke might
as well have said lam a friend of all reform, if you will
only prove to me beforehand that that reform will

be safe.--( Hear, hear.) But my Noble Friend said lam
against accepting of any thing contrary to my conscientious
opinion in order to conciliate support. Would I not say
so? Would the Noble Duke not say so? I must say that a
more safe or a more simple doctrine than this kind
of political placebo I never knew administered to a delibe-
rative assembly. —(Much cheering.) Really my Noble
Friend has left us with respect to his intentions upon 'the
great political questions that occupy men's minds out of
this House this day—he has left us at the close of his state-
ment precisely as he has left the Noble Earl, with respect
to whom he hoped he had answered his question in a satis-
factory manner.—( Hear, hear, hear.) For my own part
I never heard an answer that answered so little.
Now upon one point I must differ from my Noble Friend.
He has denied that there are great difficulties surround-
ing the country. I say that there are great difficulties
both at home and abroad. He said, on the 7th of May,
th A there were difficulties of various kinds, but that the
Government was enabled to cope with them. But my
Noble Friend went further ; he said that it had been the
opinion of many men of great weight and high authority
as statesmen, that the new Constitution under the Re-
form Bill of 1831 might do very well for fair weather, but
that it could not withstand the tempest of foreign wars and
domestic strife.—( Cheers.) He seems to deem it a
matter of doubt whether the new form of our Con
stitution is fitted as well for the storm as the
calm.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Upon this - subject
I must avow at once, that I entertain no doubt, no hesi •
tation, no apprehension or alarm whatever.—(Cheers.)
I say if it is good, for;the calm, it is better yet for the tem-
pest. I say if in smooth waters your vessel is the better for
being well trimmed, well found, and well manned, and
all her rigging tight and her timbers sound, by having with
you the hearts of the people—(Chef rs)—and by having
the good will of your constituents in the other House of
Parliament, it is still better for the tempest when more
stress will be laid on its timbers, sails, and rigging. The
repairs then that you have wisely and timely mad in the
Constitution, will become more valuable, because more
necessary, when the storm begins to beat against its bark.—
( Cheers.) I know that Ido not share this opinion with the
majority of your Lordships.--( Cheers.) 1 fear I hardly
share it with my Noble Friend. I perceive from the omi-
nous signs around me that I don't share it with my Noble
Friends, who, in former times, when it suited the hour,
were the advocates of Reform.—( Cheers.) In fact, my
Lords, I almost stand solitary in this House in looking at
the Reform Bill as the salvation of the country.--( Cheers.)
Be that as it may, 1 have frequently had occasion to stand
up alone against measures in this House, and as long as I
their(
the
G making
r repar nlfso.ainycnetdtdhse
corporation cheering.
Friend )
consider measures prejudicial to the people, I will always
stand up against them. My opinion stands steady, that
the reformation effected in 1831 and 1832, if good for
ordinary occasions, is far better for the occasions adverted
to by Noble Friend.—(Great cheering.) There can be
no doubt that the Government is in great difficulty;
indeed, its Members have admitted that they have lost the
confidence of one House, and never had that of the other
—(Laughter)—and that, having only the support of the
Crown, they could not carry on the Government. That ad-
mission was made on the 7th of May, and on thaeppeilsebi3caythtgsuhtenhmatt.eot.y
Noble Friend in
.the same place stated, notwithstanding
what he had said a week before, that lie had resumed the
Government, and meant to continue to carry it on ; but he
asked the House to adjourn for 10 or 12 days. Many thought,
and I among that number, an adjournment of such a length
seemed out of the ordinary course of Parliamentary pro-
ceedings, and that it betokened an intention to recon-
struct struct the Ministry, and that having lost the confidence
aeok
Parliament, they were going to take measures to
(t.,1 if a
,t 0 long confidence.
ab a d i
0I
ur
llneverm adjournment
u doubted o; u
butbte dwtbhh
what
tt
been
aethatsin been was
thethe
casecaus e?
Why, my Lords, that interval bas
ting up an outcry—(Cheers)—and
ignorant mlbusu-; molls—(Cheers)—deluding
sred for that
yNlobl
This was for the
doubtless was not the intention
bu y
try. It hs
misrepresentations.—(Great sr
e) s—e
ndteal It': o:ni nnsdg. e
purpose of gttingupoar
mc
nt :curd:
town
had
meetings,
et
et beeniug
to raise thcaotunctyry—mcceLttlareingrgyseh.
pthuerptowseel.ve days that
meetings have taken place, beginning with Liverpool, and
ending with the Corporation of London yesterday.... 1 ,