The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-12 00:00:00

MEETING OF THE HOUSE TO-MORROW•

After a short discussion on the practice of the house, the
proposed meeting of the house at 12 on Tuesday, and the
count out on Monday, the motion for the ineeting
to-marrow at 12 to take the Salmon Fisheries Bill was
left intact on the paper, though Mr. Butt, in order to create
a discussion on the practice of the house, had moved that
the order be discharged, a mot!on which he subsequently
withdrew.

ENDOWED CHARITIES.
Mr. G. DUFF then rose to call attention to the abases
existing in many endowed charities, with especial reference
to the bearing upon the amount of the rote for elementary
education. The hon. member divided the charities into six
classes, and dwelt upon the vices which had crept into the
management of them. His object in calling attention to
the abuses of those charities was not with a view to their
taxation, but their reformation. Taking the report of Mr.
Cumin for their guide, and making allowance for the in-
crease since 1818, the amount of income possessed by these
particular charities could not be far short of £1,500,000. He
fully believed that if the income of the several endowed
schools was judiciously administered it would be amply suffi-
cient for the purposes of education without requiring any
vote from Parliament. It was not for him to go into the de-
tails of the measure suitable for remedying the vices which
existed in these charities; but he thought one great step
towards it would be gained by reconstituting the Committee
of Council on Education, and making it a committee of edu-
cation and charities.

EDUCATIONAL REPORTS.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER desired to ask the Vice-Presiden
of the Committee upon what conditions he intended to allow
the publication of the reports of the inspectors of schools. It
appeared, according to the minute which had been recently
issu.d by the department, that no report was to be published
which contained matter of which the heads of the depart-
ment disapproved. If a report contained any controversial
matter it was to be sent back to the inspector, who was thus
made his own censor, in order that such matter might be
eliminated, and then, if the inspector was unwilling to make
the amendment, the report was not published. Now, it
seemed to him that that regulation prevented the inspectors
from fulfilling their very first duties—that of informing the
House of Commons, in the most complete manner, as to the
progress of the educational system, as only one side of
the question was thus made public. (Hear, hear.) The
report of Mr. Watkins, one of the oldest of the inspectors,
was not published last year, merely because it contained
something which the right hon. gentleman did not like.
The question was one not between the inspectors and the
office, but between the office and the House of Commons.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LO WE was afraid he could not give a very satisfac
tory answer to the hon. member. The minute to which
the hon. member made reference declared that the reports
of inspectors ought to be confined to the state of schools,
and to practical suggestions, and it was accompanied by a
statement that if a report did not conform to that injunction
that it would be sent back to the inspector to have it amended.
Well, that in reality was no minute, but simply a conclusion
drawn from an examination cf a great number of previous
minutes. He at once admitted that he did not think it was
proper to make public reports containing animadversions,
on the part of subordinates, as to the policy of the heads
of a department, and that it was the duty of a depart •
meat, if it was anxious to fulfil its functions, to prevent
its subordinates from entering into controversies with
those who were directly responsible to Parliament for
the conduct of its business. As to the question raised by
the hon. member for Elgin (Mr. U. Duff), he did not think
that the proposal of the hon. member ought to be
adopted. He saw no necessity for disturbing the ex-Wing
arrangements with respect to the Charity Commission. He
had no hesitation in saying that a more excellent tribunal
did not exist, and that the commissioners were working im-
mense improvements, No case had been made out against
them, and he must say that he considered the department
with which he was connected utterly unfitted for the
exercise of judicial functions. However, he thought
it would be very desirable to allow the commissioners
to intervene in the affairs of a charity, although they
were not called upon to do so by the inhabitants of
the district, as the law now required. Then, again,
in the case of the charities over £5O he thought the com-
missioners ought to be allowed to interfere without their
being appealed to by a majority of the trustees; and that
the power of the majority of the trustees to dismiss
a schoolmaster should be extended to the masters
of grammar schools. Hitherto the Commissioners of Edu-
cation in making grants did so without any respect to the
existing endowmemts, but a minute had been recently issued
by which endowments were made in all cases to come in aid
of the grant.
Mr. WALTER admired the courage more than the elite
cretion of the right hon. gentleman in justifying the minute
with respect to the reports of inspectors. It seemed to him
that the publication of the reports in their present shape was
only calculated to mislead members, and he therefore hoped
the house would express itself in the strongest terms against
all tampering with the reports for the future. (Hear.)

Mr. ADDERLEY confessed that long before he held the
office of Vice-President of the Committee of Education he
was of opinion that the inspectors very much departed from
their proper sphere in introducing irrevalent topics into
their reports. He therefore when in office attempted to cor-
rect that abuse by laying dawn a rule that reports should
be drawn up under five heads, and although he subsequently
abandoned it, he adhered to the right of striking out from
the reports ell matter wholly irrelevant. It was material
perhaps that men of the highest mental calibre—such as the
inspectors were—could not avoid the temptation of entering
into controversal disquisitions. But it was undoubtedly the
duty of the heads of the department to prevent the conse-
quences of such an abuse being made public.
Lord' . CECIL said the complaint was that vice-presi-
dents of the Committee of Education should constitute
themselves--or the officers under them—censors, for the
pur pose of striking out of a report anything that might
happen to be disagreeable to the Minister of the day. The
right hon. gentleman had talked of loyalty in office, but
there was one thing more important than loyalty in office,
and that was loyalty to the House of Commons; and it
seemed to him that the recent arrangement was nothing
better than a conspiracy to keep the truth from the House
of Commons.
Mr. CHILDERS should regret very much if a return
were made to the inordinate length of the old reports. He
must say that, so far as the convenience of members was
concerned, the returns of the last few years were in a greatly
more convenient shape. He had the highest respect for
Mr. Watkins, but he could not help observing that, in re-
gard to the length of his reports, that gentleman was a spe-
cial offender. At the same time he hoped that all succinct
recommendations of the inspectors would not be excluded
from the reports.
Mr. FERRAND denounced the Charity Commission as
a gross Whig job, and said he believed it was the notorious
political bias of that commissioa which caused most of the
evils complained of. He believed every member of the board
and every important functionary of that body were Whigs.
How could their proceedings be satisfactory to the country
while the board was so constituted ?
Mr. HENNESSY suppt.rted the views of the hon. mem-
ber who brought forward the question, and mentioned as
a curious circumstance that whenever an article upon the
subject of education appeared in the Quarterly or any other
of the bulky periodicals of that character, it was sure to be
reprinted in the report of the inspectors. It was also re-
markable that the same articles were continually reproduced
ad nanaeani.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that by the present practice
information was only furnished upon one side of the ques-
tion. They had better have no information at all than that
the vice-president should have power to give only such por-
tions of the reports as advccated his own opinions.
TheTHE DEBATE ON THE IRISH cHURCH.
O'DON °GIME wished to know when the adjourned
debate on this question would be taken. He thought upon
a subject of such importance it was the duty of the Go-
vernmentwardu s
ot
oo appoint
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he would bring the question for-
ward as soon as thet a day.forms of the house would permit; but
he thought it would onlynbaemcoe
a courteous
teous to Irish members if
the Government
PALMERnnt 11
for its discussion.
L
OWN could nota agree
duty to find days for;the discriusahaite:G membersnm had but two
°ofv that it was their
qeure Government ere
stions brought for-
ward by private members. The
days of the week, and p
amongst themselves for the disposal of the othermna three three'
After some brief remarks from Mr. Hadfield, Mr. Blake
Sir M. Farquhar, Major O'Reilly, Mr. Cogan, Mr. Monsell
chiefly complaining that the Government afforded no fact.
lities for the discussion of the question.
The house went into committee of supply.
SUPPLY.

Upon the vote of £28,914 for lighthouses abroad (which
was under discussion when the house was counted out on
Monday night),
Mr. CHILDERS, for the reasons he gave on the pre-

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 12, 1863.

to in an earlier part of the evening. They proposed to
make a small increase in the salaries in consequence of
the additional duties imposed upon them under the re-
vised code; and they further made provision for giving them
schoolmasters as their assistants, and not, as had been said
that evening, appointing schoolmasters assistant-inspectors.
The schoolmasters appointed to e.ssist the inspectors w.uld
have no power to report on the school, or do anything what-
ever beyond examining the school. He trusted the house
would not put a forced construction upon this minute, for
the only object of it was to give the inspectors assistance
upon the cheapest terms in those places where it was re-
quired. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BLACK said ho would fe 1 it his duty to move a re-
duction of the vote upon that portion relating to pupil
teachers. Taking the certificated teachers, pupil teachers,
and probationary teachers together, they had an army ot
28,288 teachers. Ho should like to see that army in Hyde
Park. It would be a pretty one for the Prince and Princess
to review. For what purpose had they 15,000 pupil teachers?
The hon. member contended that no apprentices ought to be
taken into the training schools during the present year, as
there was not work for the pupil teachers already on the list;
and, in that view, he moved that the vote be reduced by a
sum of £30,000.
Mr. LOVE said the money asked for by this vote was
for the payment of pupil teachers already apprenticed, but
the hon. member might rest satisfied that under the new
code, which would come into operation on the 30th inst., no
part of the grant would be directly applicable for the pay-
ment of pupil teachers.
Mr. F. S. POWELL expressed his belief that the pupil
teachers were the backbone of the system of education.
Mr BLACK then withdrew his amendment.
Mr. ADDINGTON inquired whether measures could not
be taken to protect unmarried females placed in charge ot
parish schools from the temptations to which they were sub-
jected.

Mr. LONE said the Committee of Council could not very
well interfere in the matter ; it was one which must be dealt
with by the friends of the teachers themselves, more espe-
cially as under the new system they w uld be the servants
of the managers, and not of the Committee.

Mr. PUIIEB. was of opinion that the training schools
were the mainstay of the whole system, and their mainten-
ance was a matter of great importance. With regard to
pupil teachers leaving their schools to follow other occupa-
tions, the last reports showed that out of 328 only 10 had
given up and gone to other employment. With respect to
the inspectors of schools, he thought it would be a very un
fortunate thing for the country if Parliament were to be de-
prived of the information furnished by their report.
Mr. ADDERLEY feared that the system of maintaining
the training schools, as set out by the right hon. gentleman's
proposal, would not be so successful as he anticipated. Al-
together, however, he approved of the system, and only
wished it had applied to Ireland and Scotland also.
r. W. E. FOSTER was opposed to the vote until further
informed as to the operation of the new system.
Sir M. FARQUHAR supported the vote. It was of the
utmost importance they should know what the inspectors
wrote, and he condemned the garbled reports of the inspec-
tors that were published by the Government.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained of the annual growing
increase of the vote, and he asked for an explanation why
Scotland was allowed the liberal contribution of tour or five
years ago, and was placed in a superior position to the other
parts of the empire. He approved of educating the poor,
but he thought it should be done with economy.
Mr. LIDDELL supported the certificate system, believ-
ing that the success of the schools depended on the efficiency
of the master. If they could not get beyond 8s 3d per head
they would have to fall back neon inferior teachers, and the
efficiency of the schools would deteriorate proportionally.
Mr. A. BLACK said he believed advantages were given
to Scotland because they had a superior system than that
which prevailed in England. He should wish to see it,
however, improved and extended, but the revised code was
not likely to effect that object.
Mr. E, COLE BROOK supported the voluntary system
which prevailed in Scotland.
After some further discussion, the amendment was nega-
tived without a division, and the vote was agreed to.
The next vote was £122,883 for the department of science
and art. _ _

Mr. A. SMITH pointed out the steady increase in this
item year after year, and moved to reduce the vote by
£lO,OOO.
Mr. C. BENTINCK wished to know if it was the inten-
tion of her M.jesty's Government to carry on the build-
ings at Kensington under the superintendence of the gentle-
man who was, he underst)od, the master of drawing in the
school. _ .

Mr. LOWE said that Captain Fowke had neither the
honour nor dishonour of being the designer of what was
called " The Boilers ;" they were the design of Sir Wm.
Cubitt. Captain Fowke was the designer of the Vernon and
Sheepshanks galleries at the South Kensington Museum,
and they did him the greatest credit. He was also the de-
signer of many public buildings which were greatly admired.
Mr. C. BENTINCK said the right hon, gentleman had
not answered his question. Ho maintained that Captain
Fowke knew nothing of architecture. With regard to
the lighting of buildings, it was right that an engineer
should be appointed. (Hear.) But he could tell the
right hon. gentleman that the sheds which he valued so
highly were the scorn of everybody who knew anything of
the ABC of architecture. (Laughter.) They were on a
par with the huge melon-glasses which the Chancellor of
the Exchequer wanted them to buy. (Great laughter.) The
right hon. gentleman's department was most unfortunate,
and ho could not congratulate it on having for its architect
the designer of the melon-glasses. (Renewed laughter)
Mr. LOCKE thought his hon. friend was too hard upon
Capt. Fowke ; for, if they looked through the metropolis,
they would find all their architects were in no better posi-
tion than Capt. Fowke. (Laughter.) Capt. Fowke was the
aesigner of that great brick building, the International Ex-
hibition building. That building was not erected for orna-
ment. (Laughter.) It was built for the purpose of present-
ing the most frightful exterior that could be conceived—
(laughter)—but that showed the ability of Captain Fowke.
(Renewed laughter.) He thought Capt. Fowke should be
allowed to run his course, and try his hand as well as any-
body else at the ornamentation of the Exhibition building,
but which ha hoped would not cost so much as £148,000.
Sir M. RIDLEY said that some pictures in the South
Kensington galleries, which were in good preservation
when they were removed from Marlborough House, were
decaying very rapidly.
The committee divided
For the amendment .. 31
Against it
Majority —9B
The vote was then agreed to.
THE VOLUNTEERS' BILL.
At half-past 12 this order was called on, when
Mr. COX rose to present three petitions agsinst that
portion of the bill giving commanding officers the power of
summary dismissal. One of them was from the 37th Mid-
dlesex, and another from the lst Lancashire. The hon.
member having remarked that the bill was brought on be.
fore, on the A scot Cup night, said he felt that justice could
not be done to it at that hour, and therefore he should
move the adjournment of the debate. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said he was perfectly
aware that the hon. member and his friends meant to ob-
ts
ht roubc
bill the hhea
dp rboegerne stsool
fully
hooensbiidl
el r
ei nd i env eor yo
mpoodststiebel.e w(aNyo, but,
no,
and hear.) He could not help the bill coming on upon the
Ascot night, but the hon. member had not explained why
the friends of the complaining volunteers had not been more
numerous in their attendance at Ascot than in the house.
The only amendment on the paper, however, was exactly
the same as that of the hon. baronet the member for Not-
tingham (Sir R. Clifton;, which had been fully discussed
the other evening. Therefore there was no reason for not
going on with the bill.
Major EDWAR iES was in favour of proceeding then.
Sir J. SHELLEY spoke in favour of proceeding with the
bill, which he believed was anxiously desired by the volun-
teers at large.
Mr. COX withdrew his amendment.
Some other amendments having been agreed to,
Sir R. CLIFTON said the hon. bart. spoke of the volun-
teers at large, but he said nothing about those under arrest.
If the newspaper articles and correspondence he had seen
and had sent to him were any test—he would read some of
the letters. (The hon. gentleman then read a letter from
Mr. Thos. Harris, of Blackfriars-road, and another from a
member of the Forfarshire Volunteers at Dundee, com-
plaining that volunteers should be dismissed by their offi-
cers without notice or explanation, and with no power of
appeal). The letters referred to numerous applications that
bad been made to the Lord-Lieutenant and Commander-in-
Chief, but which had never been attended to nor noticed.
In one case a number of complaints had been made, and
the Lord-Lieutenant ordered a court of inquiry, where-
upon a memorandum was issued, stating that the ex-
planation of the officers was satisfactory, but the men
could be dealt with another time. Then came
Mr. Hutchinsen's case, asking for the withdrawal
of his name from the corps. This bill gave the
colonel a despotic power to dismiss any man at his ca-
price, and if the Government wished to annihilate the
movement, he had nothing further to say. He felt con-
fident, from the hundreds of letters he had received, and
upwards of 60 leading articles that had been forwarded to
him, that this bill was disliked by the men, and would have
the effect of destroying that fine force. He moved the
following amendment in clause 20, line 17, after "cause,"
leave out to and including "officer" in line 19, and insert
"such cause or causes respectively to be committed to
writing, and communicated to the accused by the adjutant
of such corps, and the existence and sufficiency of such
causes respectively to be judged of by a court to be
summoned by the commanding officer, and to consist of one
captain, two subaltern officers, and two non-commissioned
officers or privates of the same corps."
Mr. D. GRIFFITH had taken great interest in the
movement, and he had an opportunity of knowing the
feelings of the corps on this bill, and he could assure the
house there was a strong feeling throughout the country
against the bill. It was said there was a similar clause in
the Act of 1304 ;
.but circumstances were different then and
now, and it was not be expected that the present generation
was acquainted with that ancient piece of legislation. He
was impartial in the matter, but it was to be recollected
that this was a house of colonels, and not a house of