The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-17 00:00:00

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.

Mr. BROWNLOW presented a petition from the inha-
bitants of Claragh, in the Queen's County, Ireland, in
which they complained of very great distress. This peti-
tion, though not got up for the purpose, contained a com-
plete answer to the sta-ement made by some Hon. Mem-
bers, who asserted that Ireland was in a state of prosre-
rity. The contrary was the fact. The most dreadful die-
tress prevailed in Ireland. He believed, that were they
to search through the wide world, greater distress could
no where be found than existed at present in Ireland. The
Hon. Member for Wiltshire had said that the wages for a
labouring man in his part of the country were not more
than 3a. dd. per week. He was very sorry for it ; but he
begged leave to state what was the rate of wages in Ire-
land. It was well known, from the evidence taken before
a commission which bad been appointed to inquire into the
subject, and it had not been yet contradicted, that the
whole wages of the labourers in Ireland did not exceed 3d.
a day per head. The petitioners therefore prayed the
House, that, considering the deep distress of the country,
they would be pleased to extend the system of poor-laws
to Ireland, and he could not help wishing that those laws,
.or something approaching to them, might be adepted.
After a few words from Mr. BENETT, the petition
was laid on the table.
Mr. STANLEY presented a petition from King's
County, Ireland, praying the House to take into its con-
sideration the state of the Poor Laws. •
Mr. MARSHALL presented a petition from the:town
of Leeds, against the renewal of the East India Com-
pany's Charter.
Mr. WHITMORE was induced to believe that all his
Majesty's Ministers were not agreed upon the subject. The
Hon. Member concluded by asking, whether it was the in-
tention of his Majesty's Ministers to give notice in April of
the cessation of the Company's Charter in three years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
know what the Hun. Member meant by saying that his
Majesty's Ministers were not agreed open the subject.
His Majesty's Government went into the argument upon
the Committee, without any engagements, and free from
all pledges. With respect to the question put forth
by :the Honourable Member, he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) could not but think the 'Honourable Mem-
ber must be under a mistake with respect to it. There
was no necessity to give notice of it till April, 1831.
Before that period arrived many circumvances might
arise which would affect the course his Majesty's Govern-
ment might take.
Mr. WHITMORE expressed himself satisfied.
Sir G. PHILLIPS believed that the Committee had
caused great jealousy in the manufacturing districts,
particularly on account of an Hon. Friend of his (Mr.
Marshall) being rejected from that Committee.
Mr. ASTELL referred to two cases in which the Fast
India Company had been of the utmost service in relieving
the distress that existed in the manufacturing districts.
ARMY ESTIMATES.—RETRENCHMENTS.

Sir H. HARDINGE brought up the Army Estimates
for the current year ; and upon the motion that they do
lie upon the table, gave notice of hie intention to move the
Estimates in Committee of Supply on Friday next.
Mr. HUME wished to put-a question to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer in reference to something that fell h-til
him hut night, and which seemed to hare hcco ruisapinc-

heeded. The Committee of Supply stood postponed till
ta-morrow (Wednesday), and it lad been understood that
the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to state the reduc-
tions which Ministers were prepared to make in our esta-
blishments upon that occasion. He now wished to know
whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer would go into
the subject of these retrenchments on Wednesday, or on
a future evening.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER should
be obliged to move the Committee of Supply to-morrow
evening, in order to fennel a vote of ways and mean,.
thereon ; but it was not his intention to go into the sub-
ject referred to on that occasion. When his Gallant
Friend moved the Army Estimates on Friday, he (Mr.
Goulburn) would then state the reductions which Mi-
nisters proposed to make on all the estimates of the year.
Mr. HUME put it to the Gldlant Secretary at War,
whether the House ought to be called cn to vote any part
of the Estimates on Friday, when in all probability Mem-
leers would only have seen them on the morning of that
day. He should wish for a day or two to consider them,
particularly as reductions were talked of.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said that the Hon. Meracr
should have a printed copy of the Army Estimates in his
possesson to-morrow evening, or early on Thursday

morning.
Mr. R. GORDON wished to know whether the House
would be put in possession of the number of military officers
who held civil situations.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
intention of bringing forward such a return, but it wa,
competent to the lion. MeralJer to move for the informa-
tion required, if he pleased.
Mr. GORDON—The Right Hon. Gait. has no objec-
tion to such a motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER intimated

that he had not.
Sir F. BURDETT said, if reductions of such a nature
as was understood last night were to be brought forward,
the House would require some little time to consider them.
He believed he was rather obscure in what he stated last
night on the subject of the motion of his Hon. Friend the
Member fur Montrose; and there was one point in respect
of which he wished to set himself right with the House
and his Hon. Friend. He should be sorry to have it sup-
posed that he had desired . in any degree to depreciate the
value of the motion which his lion Friend had brought
forward so ably, though he thought that there were other
measures of equal or• even greater importance towards the
relief of the depre>sion which was, unfortunately, so pre-
valent. _

Lord J. RUSSELL hoped, that when the Right Hon.
Gentleman stated, on Friday, the reductions to be made
in the estimates, he would also state what relief was to be
afforded the country in the amount of taxation.

Sir H. HARDINGE said, no man was more con-
versant with the det ills of the Army Estimates than the'
Hon. Member for Montrose. The only difference in the
estimates of this year, as compared with preceding years,
would consist in some items of diminished expenditure,
and probably a reduction in the amount of force. Under
such circumstances, if the estimates were p►aced in the
hands of the Hon. Member to-morrow evenng, Le would
have the whole of Thursday and Friday to consider them.
He hoped this would not be inconsistent with entering
into the subject in Committee of Supply on Friday even-
ing, particularly as the Committee had already been de-
layed a few days by impedimenta which prevented the in-
troduction of the estimates so soon as he had expected.
After a few words front Mr. MABERLT, complaining of
the estimates being pressed upon the blouse in a manner
that must prevent their perfect examination,
The papers were ordered to lie printed.
COAL DUTIES.

Mr. E. WODEHOUSE gave notice of hi% intention to
present a petition from Norwich to-morrow evening, on the
subject of the duties of sea-borne coals.
SUB-LETTING ACT.

Lord LEVESON GOWER moved, pursuant to uotiee,
for leave to bring in a Bill to explain and amend the Act
of the 7th Geo. IV., relative to the assignment and sub-
letting of lands and tenements in Ireland. The Noble
Lord did not consider it any part of his duty to enter Into
a discussion of the merits of the subject on the present oc-
casion. However, he could not too distinctly or empha-
tically announce that it was not his intention to promote
or originate any infraction of the principle of the Bill, or
suffer such a course to be taken as far as lie possessed the
power of preventing it. The emendation which he should
propose could be introduced without infraction upon the
principle of the Bill, which he upheld. It was to re-
move doubts and misconstructions that his Bill was in-
tended. So much for that part of the measure which
was designed to explain the present Act. It appeared to
him that according to the construction of the Act injury
might arise to the possessors of leasehold property in
dwelling-houses in Ireland, and he elms's' introduce a
clause to remedy that grievance.—(Hear.)—The Noble
Lord concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill fur
the purporte before stated.
Mr. WALLACE.—As he supposed that Hon. Mems
bers would have an opportunity of being heard in the Com-
mittee, should abstain fioin urging, on the present occa-
sion, the objections which he felt to this Act. He could
not sit down without thanking the Noble Lord for the
magnanimity he had displayed in coming forward to amend
a law w hich was so great a favourite with the landlords of
Ireland.—(Heor )
Mr. A. DAWSON thanked the Noble Lord for his
proposed amendment of this Act ; but he thought it would
he much better to get rid of the measure altogether. The
Union would never be perfect and complete until the statute
law of tic one country was the statute law of the other.
Mr. O'CONNELL was extremely anxious that not one
word should escape him which should have the effect of
causing this Act to be considered as a party measure, as
coining from that or from the oilier side of the House.—
(Hear. )—lle believed the Act to lie in the last degree mis-
chievous. He hail it front good antho4ty that a large por-
tion of the 7,000 paupers in Dublin had been driven out of
the country by the Sub-letting Act Thal the Act had ex-
cited very strong feeling in Ireland, was evident from the
numerous petitions that had been presented against it, even
at a time when the great and important question of Ca-
tholic Emancipation was pending. In his opinion the
Noble Lord had not gone far enough. The Act ought to
he repealed at once, and if there were any principle in it
worth preserving, that principle ought to be embodied in a
new Act. The lion. and Learned Member then stated se-
veral cases of great hardship, arising, he said, fro:n the re-
' trospective clauses of the Act, and which had Linen within
his own professional experience. The effect of the Act was
to increase the pauper population of Ireland. He extremely
regretted that the legal advisers of the Secretary for Ire-
land,
and the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment, who bad set the example of legal re orm in this
country, had not thought it preferable to repeal the Act
altogether, than to introduce another to amend and explain
it. The evil of these explaining and amending acts was,
that they increased litigation. He was out one of those
who thought the middle-men injurious to Ireland. lie
knew that many good families in Ireland had risen from
this class by accumulation which enabled them, at last, to
buy estates. He could name fifty instances of this fact.
The middle-men mitigated the mischiefs of absenteeism,
bat the Sub-letting Act was injurious to the poor, while it
conferred power on the rich, and the proposed measure,
he was afraid, would add to these mischiefs that.of increase
of litigation.
Mr. DOHERTY, the Solicitor-General for Ireland,
would not follow the Hon. Member for Clare through all
the details upon which he had touched, which he (Mr.
Doherty) thought might be better discussed in the Com-
mittee, clause by clause. With respect to the general
question, if the political life of the Hon. Member (Mr.
O'Connell) had commenced on the first day of that Ses-
sion, he (Mr. Doherty) might perhaps have laboured
under the mistake that it should be discussed usein its own
merits, without reference to politics or party, as the lion.
Member had expressed his desire it might be ;
but when
lie happened to know that it had been made the subject
of agitation, and had been rendered an object of dissatis-
faction in Ireland (though by no means to the extent

stated by the Hon. Member), he could not bring
altogether to subscribe to the sincerity of that Ron. and
Learned Gentleman's declaration. ILfore proceeding
farther, however, he had to state that he was not the legal
adviser of the Secretary for Ireland at the time when this
Act was passel. lie was the unworthy successor of one
whose character ought to have been sufficient to protect
this measure friun having been at least intended to produce
the baneful effects attributed to it by the Hon. and L.arned
Gentleman.—{Hear, hear, hear.)—The lL n. Atember
seemed not to understand the policy or the hi,tory of
Act. This Act had emanated from a Committee of the
House of Commons, before which there wen: two objects
prominent. One was the Catholic Question, the other that
tlow before the House. In favour of the Catholic Relief
Bill there was a preponderance of opinion, resulting front
the evidence ; but there was nu difference of opinion at
all as to the necessity of a Sub-letting Act.---( Hear.)—
It was true that nothing could ba inure fair than for the
Hon. Member for Clare to advocate the middlemen, but
this was not the feeling of the Committee ; they thought
that these middlemen iin:mveriAied the country by inter-
posing between tie landlord and the occupying tenant ;
and the Act bad been first contemplated in consequence of
a representation from the gently of Ireland. It had yen
complained that the gentry had divided their land amongst
a paupor truantry, They raid it wit.* nut tlicir fault.

They declared that they had instructed their agents to take
all measures to prevent such a subdivision, but in vain ;
there was some defect in the law, which for ever prevented
their success; there was a technical difficulty, and it was
this—no matter how strictly you worded the covenant
with the person you might select for your tenant, still, in
consequence of the power of sub-letting, was there a mode
of escape ; for though you might choose some iespectable
man, and say to him, I can rely on your solvency, your in-
industry, and your honesty, and therefore I will entrust
to you tins,.• 500 acres of land ; but I wish only far you—
yet notwithstanding all this, the proprietor would, perhaps,
find these 500 acres divided into as many parts; so that
where be had left a flourishing tenantry, he would now
only have a set of paupers. The Hon. Member had said
he did not see the principle of the Act—it was this, that
people should perform their contracts.—(Loud cries of
Hear, hear.) It never was intended that the tenant
should be the only person upon the land ; neither as a legal
man would he pretend to say (much as he thought of the
able Secretary's talents) that he had constructed a perfect
statute. No; but then the Noble Lord was willing to re-
ceive all suggestions for its amendment in the Committee.
It was very true this Act was liked by the landlords, be-
cause it compelled the tenant to observe his contract; it
was evident the proprietor ought to have absolute power
and controul aver his own property, and was not bound to
enter into agreement with anybody but him he chose. He
also contended, that the measure was not contrary to the
interests of the peasantry. A great part of the tenantry
of Ireland, it was well known, were worse off than the
beast that browsed upon the land ; it was therefore high
time to make an effort to ameliorate their condition ; and
this Act had keen brought forward with the view of rais-
ing the peasantry in the scale of civilization, and render-
ing them beings with whom there might be that degree of
communication and interchange of kindness, without
which there could be no permanent bond of union between
landlord and tenaut.—(Hear. )—lt was not, as tile lion.
Member for Clare had represented it, the act of a haughty
Aristocracy to exterminate the people. He felt himself
almost called on by the situation he held, and certainly by
the opportunity he possessed for forming a judgment on
the subject, to bear his testimony to the excellent affects
already produced by the Bill of last year. Ile would give,
as the result of his observations, that the settlement of that
question had done more for the advantage of Ireland than
the most warm friend of Catholic Emancipation could
have anticipated. It had done all the good that was
hoped, and none of the ham that was apprehended. He
trusted to God, that in the debates in that House, which
ought to be temperate, nothing would pass there that
might exasperate the people of lreland.—(Hear, hear.)—
Little would avail if all was tranquil here, if topics of
exasperation were used nearer the scene to which they
applied.
Lord ALTHORP gave his approbation to the principle
of the measure, and he thought Mr. O'Connell had been
improperly attacked, for he had stated his objections to the
Bid in the most candid and temperate manner.
Sir H. PARNELL wished to express his obligations to
the Noble Lord who had introduced this measure, which

he Wag sure would be productive of the greatest benefit to
Ireland. The Hon. and Learned Member for Clare bad
made a mistake in reLlard to the cause of the poverty and
distress of Ireland, if he imagined that the almost infinite
subdivision of land did not contribute to produce that
povet ty.
Sir F. I3URDETT said that as to the fact stated by the

lion. and Learned Member for Clare, that the Sub-letting
Act had tended to produce a larger portion of the pauper
population of Dublin, he would not deny the statement of
the Hon. and Learned Member; but it WAS the subdivi-
sion of land which had, in a great measure, created tl:at
poverty. There was somethin in every country, but es-
pecially in such a country as Ireland, stronger than Ac's
of invent, and that was the custom of the people.
The Hon. and Learned Member must, on that subject, he
better qualified than any other man to give the House in-
fwrmation, and to guide them in the attainment of their
evident wish for the amelioration of Ireland. He was
glad to hear from such an excellent and indisputable audio-
s itv as the Solicitor General for Ireland the salutary effects
of the great measure of last Session, and he should indulge
with that Hon. and Learned Member in hopes of the future
increasing prosperity of that country. But when he heard
these statements, and the statements of the same Hon. and
Learned Member, as to the satisfactory falsifie aions of all
the prophesies of the evils that measure would have pro-
duced, he cull not help asking whether the Alendler for
Clare, snore than any other person in the kingdom, was
not the man to whom the country was indebted for these
advantages ? So that in referring to that Hon. Member,
they ought not to go backward in his Meer to find cause
of blame, and, le ist of all, to seek to-discover it in those
expressions which the heats of discussion on that great
question bad called forth. The present was not a party
queseon, and he trusted it would out so be treated.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that if ever
there was an Act passed with the real desire to ameliorate
the c mdition of the people, this was that Act ; and he
could assure the Lion. and Learned Member for Cl,re that
he would give all the assistance in his power in furtherance
of such an object.
Mr. O'CONNELL explained, and leave was then given

to bring in the Bill.
ECCLESIASTICAL CORPORATIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. STANLEY should make no observations on the
Motion of which he had give notice, as the Noble Lord,
the Secre'ary for Ireland, had told him there was no objec-
tion to it on the part of the Government. lie moved for
leave to bring in a Bill to amen•! the Laws respecting the
Leasing Powers of Bishops and Ecclesiastical Corporations
in Irelanl—Leave grant-A. •

rity es to make it hardly possible to doubt what
they say, that for a considerable time it was the ob-
ject of the Allied Governments to restrict the New
State of Greece to the Morea. When I heard this I
was, indeed, surprised and disappointed (for I speak
from the testimony of those who know the fact
better than I do); such a limitation of territory
would make it rather a place of refuge for free-.
booters and pirates than one fit to contain the pro-
per elements of a State able to govern and direct
itself. Much of that sorrow I felt at this informa-
tion was, indeed, removed by the copy of the Proto-
col, in which Arta and Volo were stated as the in-
tended boundaries of the New State on the North ;
and I was the more pleased with this declaration,
as Sir F. Adam, whose opinion on this subject is de-
serving of much consideration, had stated that the
country within these boundaries would possess a
good defensive frontier. But, after that Protocol
was published, and after I had heard that opinion, I
must confess it was with considerable apprehensions
I heard that other arrangements were intended,
and that Arta and Volo were not to be the boun-
daries of the new State. On that question I hope
to obtain either the expression of the opinion of the
House, or the declaration of the Right Honourable
Gentleman. Besides this question of Arta anti
Volo, there is another relating to .an opinion ex-
pressed in another place with respect to Candia.
For my own pert I am not prepared to say that
Candia is in such u situation that it is necessary
to insist that it should be given up to Greece;
but if it is true that there has bet n war there,
and that the Greeks arc in possession of the greater
part of that island, it is clear that you will
hazard the tranquillity and settlement of Greece,
unless you provide at the same time for the settle-
ment of Candia. There has been one assertion
made which is essentially erroneous. It has been
said, that so far from Candia having been in the
possession of the Greeks at the time of the Treaty
of July, 1827, it was not even in a state of insurrec-
tion, and that the insurrection which did arise was
only in coesequence of the Treaty of the Allies; but
I have been informed, and I have no hesitation to
name the authority from whom I derived the infor-
mation—l say I have been informed by Sir E. Co-
drington, that when he arrived in the Mediterranean,
Cape Buso was in the possession of the Greeks, and
from that point they excited insurrection in Candia.
With regard to Candia being directly comprehended
ie the Treaty of 1827, I am not prepared to say
that it was; but I know of no sufficient evidence to
justify me in saying that it v, as not. The words
used in the Treaty were, " the Islands of Greece."
It was not stated what the islands were, nor was
Candia actually named ; and perhaps I might go
farther, and say that it was generally supposed that
Candia was not included, but Samos was ; and that
island, I believe, is not to be comprehended in the
new State of Greece under the now proposed ar-
rangements. I wish to speak on one point more.
The favourable opinion of Mr. Fox towards Turkey
was alluded to by the Right Hon. Gent. on a form, r
night, and the same opinion has likewise been men-
tioned elsewhere. It is trite that Mr. Fox, or those
who acted with him (for I believe it was about the
time of his last illness), did agree with France in
proposal to undertake the guarantee of Tut key, that
neither France on the one hand, nor Russia on the
other, should invade that country ; but those who
rely on that fact ought to recollect the circumstances
of that time, when aggressions to an enormous
amount had been made by France, which had before
then made an irruption into Egypt, and when it be-
came necessary, to preserve anything like a balance
of power, to agree to the proposed guarantee. That
was the only course that could then be adopted to
prevent the recurrence of war; and when, there-
fore, it was proposed by France, it was the object
of England to accept it, for it was, in fact, a gua-
rantee against France, that neither that Empire
nor Russia should be allowed to disturb the hal:time
of power as it was then proposed to be adjusted.
But in 1791, when Russia invaded Turkey, Mi.
Fox uttered that speech, the words of which
may not have been correctly given, but the uni•
' form tenor of it can hardly be mistaken—in which he
said that lie was not afraid of the aggressions of Rus-
sia on Turkey, in which there is riot one monosyl-
lable against the seizure of the Crimea by Russia,
but in which there is the statement of his opinions
that Russia has that power with which of all others,
hardly accepting Holland itself, it is our interest to
form political tics. Such, Sir, was the opinion of
Mr. Fox, expressed under circumstances much more
similar to those at present existing than those of the
year 1806, when the whole state and balance of
power in Europe had been overturned. I cannot
conclude without expressing my satisfaction that the
time is approaching when the objects of the Treaty
of July are about to be accomplished. I feel the
greatest sati-fiction that another State is about to
I be added to the family of European nations, and
that that people who for centuries have been afflicted
with the calamities, and debased by the vices of

slavery, will now take their chance of improvement
from the free communication of the knowledge and
the arts of other countries. Into the feelings of
those who seem to think the pacification of Europe
a misfortune, I confess I cannot enter. I have
nothing in common with them. I know that in
1790, the Earl of Liverpool made a speech which
gained for him a high character within these walls,
in which he recommended England to support
Turkey as a counterpoise to Austria : all I will
say upon that point is, that how fatal, or at
least how dangerous, are such speculations, such
theories, and such wire-drawn refinements, on
the preservation of the balance of power, has
been established by our own experience. Sup-
posing them, however, to be well-founded when
we look to the advantages gained for Mol-
davia, Wallachia, Servia, and last of all, for Greece;
when we witness the attainment of freedom from
thraldom, and the prospect of increased commerce,
and increased knowledge from communication be-
tween that country and rest of Europe, we cannot
regret that that balance had been disturbed. Put-
ting those political refinements out of sight, it can-
not be said that England, as a free and commercial
country, will not have gained by the late establish-
ment of peace in the East of Europe. To those
who do not participate in these opinions, I will say
that I never will consent to be classed with those
who think that' the- improvement of mankind in any
part of the globe, and in any manner, can be hostile
to the interests of Great Britain—
" Dii meliora piis, erroremque hostibus ilium."
I have now only to conclude by reading my mo-
tion
That this House learns with satisfaction, that his