The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-03 00:00:00

TRADE.

Mr. A. SMITH asked the President of the Board of
Trade whether he would lay upon the table of the house a
copy of the correspondence which had lately taken place
between the meteorological department of his office and
the Royal Society ?
Mr, M. GIBSON replied that he had no objections.
BUOYS, &c.
Mr. A. SMITH asked the President of the Board of
Trade when the index to the report of the commission on
lights, buoys, and beacons would be printed and presented
to the house ?

Mr. M. GIBSON replied that it would shortly be pre-
sented to the house.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE ACT.

Mr. WHALLEY then proceeded to move " That this
house will immediately resolve itself into a committee to
eonaider the Act 8 and 9 Vic., for the endowment of the
trite of Maynooth, with a view to the repeal of the same,
tae Z.; being had to vested rights and interests." At
latui "'den of the hon. gentleman's address there were
ctisa for
division.

inri.—. %Am oPPoised the motion, saying that he had
got e ration, -'' a egeni
non, and found that the Roman Catholics
thepra, el.4!'lent Brant of only five farthings each, and
..Mr. aten
bk. (Rear, hear.)
divide:, ..diviZnftal. eti the motion amidst cries of
Sir R. "PEEL loriety - .
the hon. gentleman, aid uum to some of the statements of
siderable irapati
sues on th7partW the motion amidst con-
very intolerant to deny that ,sduct Uulhoue. It would be
tholics which other classes reeei;;-4 ta
the Roman Ca-
State. ad at the hands of the
Mr. NEWDEGATE supported the
Mr. WHALLEY briefly replied ; themotion
when there appeared— divided,
For the motion ...................... 100
Against it .......................... IDS
Majority ................... --
The motion was aecordingly lost. DB

SEA FISHERIES.
Mr, FENWICK rose to move that an humble
presented to her Majestyprayingthat she will be address be
graciously
Pleased to issue a Royal commission to inquire into our sea
fisheries, with the view of increasing the supply of a favourite
and nutritious article of food for the benefit of the public.
The hon, member said there could be no doubt of the im-
portance of the sea fisheries, as they afforded a large supply
of food for all classes of the public. There was no means of
getting an exact account of the entire quantity of fish con-
sumed in this country; but be had been furnished with the
returns of eight railway companies, from which it could be
inferred what an enormous quantity was annually consumed.
During the year 1862 the Sough-Eastern Railway brought
up to London 3,218 tons; London and Brighton, 5,174
tons; Great Western, 2,885 tons ; North British, 8,303
tons ; Great Northern, 11,930 tons; North-Eastern, 27,896
tons; Great Eastern (Eastern Counties) 29,680 tons. He
had also obtained a return of the fish sold in the Manchester
market alone, which amounted to 380 tons per week, or
19,760 tons in the year. In the course of the year there
lome,0,001: London 500,000 cod fish, 25,000,000 mackerel,
rints _ ,brles, 35,000,000 plaice, 200,000,000 fresh her-
-141 sprats, there was no computing their number

As to shell fish, there were 40,000
day all over England. Of o-
;eters there were sold 500,000,000
yearly, cockles 70,00,,,,000, and periwinkleswentl.uosters consumed every
had made a 0 capital
of
(36(1--- ilO, iculation which
that a 0,00. He
,-000 was invested in this industry, and that
H
tabouet
half a million of persons were employed in it. (Hear.)
had been in communication with va-ous parts of the
country, and the almost universal compl tint was, that if
something was not done the worst consequences might be
apprehended, as the fish was falling off from year to year.
He might be asked what was the cause. The cause was
the same as that which had destroyed the salmon fishery,
and a neglect of Nature's laws. They were not familiar
with the habits of sea fish, which were beyond their ken ;
but it was believed that the natural home of sea-fish was
deep water, and they approached shallow water for the pur-
pose of spawning. Whatever means raked up or carried
into deep water the spawn of the flek, necessarily destroyed
a large portion of fish. Ho had arrived at the conclusion,
based upon the authority of the most competent persons in
the fishing trade, that the two main causes of the destruction
of fish were the trawl net and the seine net. Now, when he
spoke of trawling as injurious to seafish, he wished it to be
understood that the system ho referred to was altogether
distinct from the trawling for herrings which was adopted
in Scotland. The trawl net had a large beam and chain
attached to it, and the chain scraped up the whole of the
mud, and with it the spawn; not only destroying a vast
quantity of young and immature fish, but also rubbing off
the scales of the larger fish and bruising or otherwise less-
ening it in value. He had himself seen in a northern city
two cart loads of cod fish, the largest of which was not
bigger than his hand—a fact which must convince every-
body that an enormous quantity of fish was destroyed in
this way. The fishing by the seine net was equally injurious
to fish. He had given so much attention to the matter that
he could tell at once whether .the fish exhibited for sale
had been taken Iby trawling or by the seine ; but he did
not rely upon his own testimony merely. In addition to
his own observation, he had communicated with some of
the most experienced men in the country, and they all
without exception, condemned the practice of trawling.
The hon. member then read the opinions of Mr. Jonathan
Crouch, of Cornwall, whom he characterised as the great-
estef fishthe
largestnaturalist
fish i n
salesmenth e countryja
London;o f Mr.
0f Mr.
The
Williams,Twehloconenxe
earthoethterresw,linalgl injuriousanofdwsheinomingtessytifistedemstoofthfieshieg effectsi.
member also referred to different parts of the coast where.
fishing had at one time been a profitable industry, but
where fishing had now ceased, or nearly so. He then re-
viewed the laws on the subject, which had become obsolete
and ineffectual, and said the only remedy was the adoption
of the means which had revived the salmon fishery. As he
had taken part in the question of the salmon fishery, he
might take the opportunity of informing the house of the
satisfactory results which had attended the inquiry he had
moved for. He might state, by way of illustration, that
four young salmon had been taken in the Thames at the
Nore on Saturday, which were in the stage between smolt
and grills—that in itself was a gratifying result. (Hear.)
He had been tauntingly asked at the time why he had de-
voted his attention to the fish of the rich, and not done any
thing for the fish of the poor. Well, his answer was that
he was now doing something for the fish of the poor by the
terms of the motion he had now the honour to move.
(Cheers.)

Mr. CAVE seconded the motion. The hon. gentleman
reviewed the laws which had been passed with reference to
the regulations between French and English fishermen, and
thought that due attention should be paid to the meshes of
the nets. There were two kinds of oyster fishery—the deep-
sea and the shallow-sea ; and although May and June were
the best months for fishing, any fishing vessel found with
oysters after April 30 was liable to forfeiture and the owner
to fine and imprisoment. The fence months were no pro-
tection to the fishery, for while the French and English
fishermen observed the rule, the Dutch fishermen fished on
the beds with impunity. The price of the small native oysters
with which hon. members alone had any acquaintance was
445. the bushel ; while the price of the large, coarse oysters,
which were so largely consumed by the poorer classes,
was Bs. the bushel ; but there was no doubt that the
supply of these was greatly diminished by the artificial re-
striction imposed upon the fisheries. He hoped that one of
the results that would follow from the appointment of a
commission would be the repeal of these fishing disabilities.
Mr. CLAY said it was not to be denied that the greatest
jealousy existed between the line and trawl fishers. The
statements on either side, therefore, should be received with
suspicion. At the same time, from the inquiries he had
made, it appeared to him that the accounts given by the
trawlers were infinitely nearer the truth. Sufficient allow-
ance was not made for the migratory character of fish, nor
for the much more general consumption of fish owing to
the great increase in the locomotive power of the country.
He believed also that no increase had taken place in the
number of the boats engaged in trawling. On the other
hand, no allusion had been made to the 1,500,000 soles and
the 29,000,000 of plaice which, according to Mayhew, were
sold annually in the streets of London in barrows. But it
they put an end to trawling, there would be an end to the
take of sole, as it was well established that it was nearly
impossible to take them with a line, He had had a good
deal of experience in deep- sea fishing, more especially off
the coast cf Ireland, and he never remembered to have
caught more than one or two soles in that way. It seemed
to him that the proposed inquiry could do no good, and
therefore that no case had been made out for disturbing an
industry which employed a large amount of capital, as well
as some of the hardiest of the population.
Mr. BENTINCK had some 40 year? experience of the
coast fisheries throughout the United Kingdom, and he
had no hesitation in stating that his honourable friend
opposite (Mr. Fenwick) had formed a most erroneous im-
pression as to the system of trawling. He certainly never

saw a trawl net of the description referred to by his hon.
friend. He never saw a trawl with a chain attached
to it, and he would undertake to say that no trawl ever
went over the ground at the rate of seven miles an hour.
The rate of travelling was much slower than that, for
the object of the fishermen could not be to fill their nets with
mud. If the decrease in the quantity of fish taken was
caused by trawling, how came it that at Dover and Brix-
ham, where admittedly the take of fish had alone increased,
trawling was carried on to a greater extent than at any other
places along the coast ? He entirely concurred with his
hon. friend the member for Hull (Mr. Clay), that it would
be most dangerous to interfere with the operation of traw-
ling.
Mr. COLLIER considered that a most unfounded attack
had been made upon the trawlers. He had some know-
ledge of trawling, and he would affirm that no one ever
saw a trawlin,4 net set such as had been spoken to by the
hon. member (Mr. Fenwick), except the hon. mem •
ber himself. He had been in the habit of closely inspect-
ing the fish market of Plymouth, from whence came the
main supply of fish for the London market, and he could
testify to the excellent condition of the fish taken by traw-
ling. It appeared to him that no sufficient case had been
made out for the appointment of a Royal commission, which
would be attended with a great deal of expense and a great
deal of delay.
-

Mr, LIDDELL supported the motion, and said that all
its advocates wanted was to see the same laws which had
worked so effectually for the preservation of fish in our
rivers applied to the deep-sea fisheries.
Mr. M. GIBSON must confess that the form and terms of

the motion were extremely wide. A commission appointed
to inquire into the whole of the fisheries of the United King-
dom, would have a task before it which would take a very
long time to get through, and—which was by no means a
matter to be lost sight of—would be attended with much
expense. (Hear.) A commission started upon what
might be designated a fishing inquiry—(laughter)—with-
out any definite object—was not a very practical mode of
dealing with a subject. The commission appointed last
year, or the year before, to investigate the destruction of
fish, had a definite object before it. There had been great
quarrels, and even bloodshed, caused by the two modes in
vogue of catching herrings, and it became absolutely ne-
cessary to ascertain what alterations in the practice were
necessary in order to put an end to these hostilities. An
hon. member opposite had called attention to the subject
of the French fisheries. Now they had bound themselves
by a variety of international obligations as regarded
the Channel fisheries, but at the present moment they
were upon the point of negotiating a joint inquiry, to be
undertaken by the French and English Governments
into the working of the laws now in force under that
treaty ; so that in that position of affairs it would not
be advisable to start another and an independent commis-
sion of a roving character. Without, therefore, alleging
that the hon. member had not brought forward a motion of
much interest, he thought the house ought to pause before
assenting to the appointment of a commission, and allow
the negotiations now going on with the French Govern-
ment to proceed without interruption. At the same time
he must candidly avow that he could not conceive any kind
of restriction which it would be advisable to impose upon
the szawl
ere.

beetedolanallausD:lorCßSON.believed that the inquiry
respect
m expensive ; and he argued that, with
to irobLud.
most
valuable. e Particularly, its results might be
Mr. goDows need neither
of Trade that the .......`4l reminded the President of the Board
was within three Bit injury done to the deep-sea fisheries
distance forei v 1." th- --it, and that within that
with respect to the coast la
was, that themesame precrution.,„b4te°tne• What they wanted
—' Tuaaaures should be taken
such advantage in the case of thew! 1194fi.been adopted with
Mr. M`MAIION was very rwet
--luirlesiu. (3.
had refused to assent to the motisoort7 tiutt ee,t— '4ovornment
enter into a new engagement witlant:hiefFtlll; 17:4 about to
surely it was desirable tt there should erament,
pendent inquiry at home, Previte:lll4de:
The house divided. The numbers were__
For the motion.. .... ................ do
Against it ................... .. .... 27
Majority for the motion
........ —23
The announcement of the numbers was received with
loud cheers by the Opposition.
CHARITABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND).
Mr. HASSARD begged leave to call the attention of the
house to the state of the laws relating to charitable dona-
tions and bequests in Ireland, preparatory to moving that,
in the opinion of the house, the laws relating to charitable

property in Ireland ought to be assimilated to those in force
in England, as far as circumstances will permit.

The hon. gentleman was stopped by the SPEAKER,
who said that his attention was called to the fact that there
were not 40 members in the house.

The house was counted after the usual time had been
allowed, and, there not being 40 members present, the house
stood adjourned at a quarter past 8 o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 2.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE ACT.

Motion made and question put, " That this house will
immediately resolve itself into a committee to consider
the Act 8 and 9 Vic., for the endowment of the College
of Maynooth, with a view to the repeal of the same, due
regard being had to vested rights and interests." The
house divided—Ayes, 100; Noes, 198.

AYES-100.
Adderley, C. B. Filmer, Sir E. Mure, David
Arbuthnott, Gen.H. Finlay, A. S. Newde C.
;ate,Ayrton, A. S. Galway, Viscount Noel, G. J.
Aytoun, B. S. Gard, R. S. North, Col.
Baines, E. Getty, S. G. O'Neill, E.
Beach, W. W. Gore, J. R. 0. Pakenham, Col.
Bentinck, G. W. P. Griffith, C. D. Parker, Major W.
Benyon, R. liadlield, Geo. Veto, Sir M.
Beresford, W. Hamilton, Major Pevensey, Viscount
Blackburn, P. Hill, Hon. R. Pigott, Sergeant
Bouverie, E. P. Holmesdale, Lord bcott, Sir W.
Bramley-Moore, J. Hopwood, J. T. Shelley, Sir J. V.
Bridges, Sir B. Ito' slab, T. B. Smith, Abel
Butler, C. S. Hotham, Gen. Lord Smith, S. G.
Cairns, Sir H. Joßife, H.
Yorke, Hon.
E.
Spooner, R.
Cave, S. Kennard, R. Stanhope, J. B.
Close, M. C. Ker, D. S. Stewart, Sir M. R.
Cole, Hon. it. Kinnaird, Hon. A. Stuart, Col. W.
Cole, J. L. Knox, Major W. S. Tite, Wm.
Collier, R. P. Langton, W. G. Torrens, R.
Coningham, Wm. Langton, W. H. G. Turner, C.
Craufurd, E. H. J. Lawson, W. Vance, John
Crossley, Sir F. Lefroy, A. Vansittart, Win.
Davie, Sir H. R. F. Long, R. P. Verner, Sir Wm.
Doulton, F.
Duke, Sir James
Du Cane, C.
Dundas, Fredcrick Matheson, A. White, Jas.
Lowther,mmaaclik
Mackie,
it :col. H. C. i,l
,Vv aa Walker,lttgt,
J.
ndi
R.
Adm. ..BJ
B.
E .
Edwards, Col. Matheson, Sir J. Williams, W.
Egerton, Sir P. Miller, Williamir
G.
Egerton, E. C. Mills, A.
Ellice, E., jun.
Ewan, William MMOnre,nlDe.rY' S
Ewing, H.
Edward
*C.
Mowbray,Mundy, So
Rt
Williamlln. J.
Whalley,
yjoGse.prih.
}e

NOES —l9B.
Acton, Sir J. Forster, W. E. o*Ferrall, M.
Adair, 11. E. Fortescue, Hon. F. Ogilvy, Sir J.
Addington, Hon.W. Fortescue, C. S, Collagen, T.
Angerstein, W. French, Col. O'Reilly, M.
Antrobus, E. Gibson. T. AL Padmore, It.
Atherton, Sir W. Gladstone, W. E. Paget, C. I
Bagwell, J. Glyn, G. C. Paget, Lord A.
Bailey, C. Glyn, G. G. Pakington, Sir J. s.
Baring, 11. B. Gower, G. W. L. Palmer, Sir R.
Baring, Sir F. Greaves, Edward Patten, Col. W.
Bass, M. T. Greene, J. Pease,, H.
Bazley, Thomas Greenwood, J. Peel, Sir R.
Beaumont. Somerset Gregory, W. 11. Peel, F.
Beecroft, G. S. Gregson, S. Fender, J.
Bellew, R. M. Grenfell, C. P. Potter, E.
Berkeley, C. Greville, Col. F. Price, R. G.
Black, Adam Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir G. Pryse, Capt. E. L.
Blencowe, J. G. Grosvenor, Earl Pritchard, John
Bond, J. W. Grosvenor, Lord R. Puller, C. W.
Botfield, Beriah Gurdon, B. Ramsden, Sir J. W.
Bouverie, P. P. Hankey, Thomson Redmond, J. E.
Briscoe, J. I. Hartopp, E. B. Ricardo, 0.
Browne, Lord J. T. Hassard, M. D. Robertson, IL
Bruce, H. A. Headlam, Thos. E. Russell, Hastings
Buchanan, W. Henley, J. Russell, A. J. E.
Buller, Sir A. Hennessy, J. P. St. Aubyn, J.
Butt, Isaac Herbert, 11. A. Salomong,Alderman
Buxton, C. Hervey, LordA. Scholefieid, W.
Cardwell, Rt. Hn. E. Hesketh, Sir T. Scourfielu, J. H.
Cavendish, Lord G. Hibbert, J. Scully, V.
Cecil, Lord R. Hodgson, K. Seely, C.
Chapman, J. Hodgson, It. Selwyn, C. J.
Clay, James Holtord, R. S. Seymer, H. K.
Clifford, C. C. Holland, E. Shafto, R. D.
Clifford, Col. Horsmt.n, E. Sheridan, 11. B.
Clifton, Sir R. Howard, Lord E. G. Smith, J. A.
Cobden, R. Howes, E. Somerville, Sir W.
Cochrane, A. D. Hutt, W. Stacpoole, W.
Cogan, W. 11. Jackson, W. Staniland, M.
Colebrooke, Sir T.E. Jervoise, Sir J. Stanley, Lord
Collins, T.
Kekewich, S. Steel, John
Corbally. M. E. Kinglake, A. W. Stirling, Wm.
Cowper, Hon. W.F. Kinglake, Serj. J. Sullivan, M.
Cox, W. Kingseote, Col. Sykes, Col. W. H.
Crawford, R. W. Leader, N. Talbot, C. R. M.
Cubitt, Ald. Leatham, E. Thornhill, W. P.
Davey, it. Lennox, Lord G. G. Trelawny, Sir J. S.
Davie, Col F. Lever, John 0. Vane, Lord H. G.
Dawson, R. P. Liddell, Hoc. H. G. Verney, Sir Harry
Dent, John Dent Longfield, Robert Vernon, 11.
Dering, Sir H. Lowe, Rt. Hon. R. Villiers, Rt. Hon. C.
Dickson, Col. MacEvoy, E. Vivian, H. H.
Dillwyn, Lewis L. Mackinnon,W. A. Waldron, L.
Disraeli, Benjamin Al'Mahon, P. Walpole, S. H.
Douglas, Sir C. Maguire, J. F. Watkins, Col. L.
Duff, R. Manners, Lord J. Way, Arthur E.
Dundas, Sir David Marshall, W. Western, S.
Egerton, W. Martin, P. W. Westhead, J.
Enfield, Viscount Martin, J. White, L.
Ennis, John Massey, W. N. Wickham, H. W.
Esmonde. J. Milford, W. T. Winnin,gton, Sir T.
J. Evans, T. W. MonMonsell, Wood, Rt Iln. Sir C.
creiff,
Evart, J. C. Rt. Hn. W. Wrightson, W.
Fenwick, Henry Morrison, W. Wyvill, M.
Foley, Hon. H. W. North, F. TELLERS.
Foljambe, F. J. S. O'Conor Don, The Brand, 11. B.
i Forster, Charles D. O'Donoghue, The Knatchbull-Migess