The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-28 00:00:00

had taken the trouble to go through the two returns, and the
above was the important result he met with.—( Hear, hear.)
He did not know how to account for the discrepancies, but the
fact was as he stated it. In the report of the Prison Inspec-
tors, the number of persons committed to the several gaols 'n
the county of Tipperary, in 1836, was stated to have been
1,557. Now, in the other report, that from the Clerks of
the Crown and Clerks of the Peace, there was given es the
number committed to the gaol of Clonmel 442, and to .the
several other gaols of the county 5,412, making a total of
5,854. Here was a discrepancy of no less than 4,297 in one
county alone ; and if their Lordships carried on the compari-
son throughout,
_they would find, as he had done, that the gross
difference between the two accounts was no less than 14,000,
which, added to the amount given in the Prison Inspectors' re-
port, made the total of committals in 183 G—the tranquil 1836-
67,891. The Noble Earl had alluded to the manner in which
the police of Ireland had done its duty, and he was bound to
say thst the eulogies he had passed on that body were well
merited. The police had well done its duty ; but had the
Noble Earl as well done his duty ? Had he allowed to be
carried into execution the sentence of the law, when, through
the exertions of the police, convictions had. been procured ?
( Hear, hear.) Had there not been on the part of the Noble
Earl some little seeking after popularity, besides that which
ought to result from the strict performance of duty in the
execution of his judicial functions—he used the term advisedly,
in connection with the prerogative of the Crown ?—( Cheers. )
He really thought the House of Lords was bound to have all
these matters brought before them in some clear and intelligi-
ble manner. They ought to know what was the real state of
crime in the country. As the case was before the House at
present--no matter whether estimated by the report of the
prison-inspectors, or the other to which he alluded as sent by
the Clerks of the Crown—he did maintain that the word
" tranquillity" did not apply to Ireland. It was impossible
for the House to know clearly what had occurred since the
date of the returns contained in these reports ; but, as far as
his private information went, he was able to corroborate what
had been stated on his side of the House With reference to the
present state of the county of Tipperary. Certainly, up to the
period of the Assizes, and he believed he might carry on the
account up to the present moment, it had been ascertained that
in that important part of Ireland--important as well in extent
as in reference to the disturbances which had prevailed in it,
there had been no decline, no diminution, in crime since
1836. The same, he believed, was the case in other
parts of Ireland ; and if so, he challenged any of their Lord-
ships to assert that the word " tranquillity" applied to any
part of Ireland at the present moment. The Noble Earl, in
his speech, had not alluded in any way to an important
feature in the history of the present state of Ireland,
namely, the marching through the country of armed .bodies,
in open defiance of all authority.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It
might perhaps be difficult to prevent these marchings, but
while they continued it was absurd to say that Ireland v. as
tranquil.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of M ULG RAVE begged to explain. In there-
turn of the clerks of the peace and clerks of the crown, there
were very often given the same offences three times over—that
was to say, the one offence, say a case of assault, was put
down first as a case of assault, secondly, as a case of riot, and
thirdly, as a case of rescue..—( Hear.) In this way it was three
times stated in the returns, and in some instances, where a
postponement from one assize to another was found neces-
sary, the case so tripled was repeated, thus making the one
offence appear as six.---( Hear, hear.) With regard to the
observations made by the Noble Duke respecting the appli-
cation of the term " tranquillity" to Ireland, he had but to
observe, that he and his colleagues in the Government only
used it in the sense that the general state of the country
was such as to justify the House in examining the political
measures about being brought before it in connection with
that part of the kingdom. The Noble Duke lia:1 alluded to
his exercise of the prerogative of mercy. Upon this point he
was anxious, and would take an early opportunity, to lay
before their Lordships a return he had prepared of the number
of cases in which he had exercised this right. At present he
should only state, that in 800 cases (round numbers) he had
been memorialised, and that in one-half of these he had, on
examination, returned unfavourable answers. Of the re-
maining cases lie had decided in about 100 upon medical cer-
tificates, without reference to the judges; and with this ex.
ception, and also the exception of persons engaged in the
Orange processions, he had invariably required their opinion
on the merits of the application.—( Hear.)
Viscount MELBOURNE (who was very indistinctly
heard in the reporters' gallery) was understood to regret he
had not anticipated the Noble Duke's touchiness and jealousy
in reference to the terms proper for Ministerial writings.
Had he done so, he assured him that in tfie concoction of her
Majesty's Speech from the Throne special care should have
been taken that uothing should be introduced calculated to
wound either of these newly-acquired attributes. Upon this
document the Noble Duke had been most unusually severe.
Not only had he accused the Government of putting into the
Speech what they ought not to have touched upon, but he
charged them with not understanding what they did speak
of, and of applying words generally which were only appli-
cable to particular parts of the kingdom. He said, " You
have applied the terms ' domestic tranquillity' to the whole
of the empire ; but you don't mean that, for there is what is
called prredial crime in Ireland, and therefore that portion of
the United Kingdom must be abstracted from the picture."
Now, with all due deference to the Noble Duke, he begged to
say it was not his intention to apply the terms "domestic
tranquillity" to Ireland any more than to the remainder of
the kingdom ; nor was it his intention to apply it less to that
country than to its neighbours.—( Hear, hear.) And he put it
to the sshole House fairly and distinctly to say whether the
present state of the British empire was not such as to justify
the use of the terms in its full acceptance.—( Hear, hear.) If
the Government could not now use the words, they never could
use them.—( Hear, hear.) If they were to wait until there
was no crime in Ireland, or any other part of the empire, they
never would be able to say that there was domestic tranquil-
lity. But when they saw that in Ireland the authority of the
law was vindicated without difficulty, that property and life
were in safety, and that there was no apprehension of any
breach of the public peace, he would maintain that he was per-
fectly justified in the application of the terms, and he was sure
in this the House, or at least the majority, would fully bear
him out.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, the words were so
very offensive to the Noble Duke—if it were established that
the Noble Duke and his party were to be even dissatisfied at
the very idea that all was going on well in Ireland—why, he
would strain a point in future, and, as far as was consistent
with his duty, shun all allusion to these obnoxious terms.—
( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.) It was a difficult thing
to please all parties in the framing of Royal speeches,
but he felt that in the present instance there was as little
ground for animadversion as it was possible there could be.
The Noble Duke had spoken of agrarian disturbances in Ire-
land as proceeding entirely from political agitation, and in
support of his opinion had referred to that of a Noble relative,
which, although, perhaps, on all subjects was not with him of
the same weight, was in the present case made by the Noble
Duke perfectly oracular.—( A laugh.) According to both
those distinguished authorities agrarian outrage proceeded en-
tirely from political agitation. Now, though it was undoubted
that at present the two went together, it was not the case that
there never was agrarian outrage without political agitation.
He had traced the history of agrarian outrage in Ireland to a
very distant period. He feared that it had existed as far back
as 1760, which was long before any political agitation pre-
vailed.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke seemed to imply
that it was the duty of the Government to have asked Parlia-
ment for extended powers to suppress disturbance in Ireland,
for he vaunted the conduct of his own and other Administra-
tions for having so done. But did the Noble Duke mean to
say that the state of Ireland demanded extended powers?
Was it possible that the Noble Duke considered it the duty of
the Government to come down, under present circumstances,
and in the present condition of Ireland, and say to Parliament
that extended powers were requisite to preserve the peace of
that country ? In his opinion, the odium and obloquy which
invariably attended the demand on the part of any Govern-
ment for extended powers did more to weaken than
strengthen that Government.—( Cheers.) It was riot Isis
intention to go into the returns which had been laid on
the table : the deductions which had been drawn from them
by the Noble Lord were anything but infallible. The
crime of one year might be totally different in its charac-
ter from that of a preceding year, and it was impossible
to form any satisfactory judgment from the mere com-
parison of the number of offences in one year with the
number of offences in another. If the increase in any year
was very great, unquestionably this might form a fair ground
for inference, but there must always be observed a great deal
of caution in arriving at conclusions in such questions. The
appeal which had been made to his Noble Friend and himself
he ,was most ready to answer. The Noble Earl had requested
of his Noble Friend ( Lord Mulgrave), that he would use the
powers entrusted to him for the maintenance of the public
tranquillity, and that he would not appoint persons to offices
which they were not capable of filling properly. He (Lord
telbourne) would answer for his Noble Friend, that such
would ever be the course of his conduct. One observation
which the Noble Lord opposite had made he might well have
spared, when he asked the Noble Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
whether some unworthy seeking after popularity had never in-
fluenced him in the exercise of the prerogative of mercy. If
the Noble Earl thought he had any grounds for such an impu-
tation, it was the duty of the Noble Earl to call upon the
House to inquire into all the circumstances of the case ; but
the Noble Earl ought to be very sure that he had some grounds
for making observations such as these, before he ventured to
cast such imputations on so high a public officer—on a noble-
man to whom such important functions, to whom the preroga-
tive of mercy had been entrusted by his Sovereign.—( Hear.)
The Noble Earl had talked reproachfully about the power
which he (Lord Melbourne) and his Noble Friend possessed.
As to his own (Lord Melbourne's) power, he was compelled to
believe, when he looked on the benches opposite, that it was not
altogether so predominant as to seduce him, into any intoxi-
cating feelings.—( A laugh.) The Noble Laid opposite had
not, of course, failed to give his repetition to the now almost
worn-out expression which had fallen from his ( Lord Mel-
bourne's) mouth some tao years back, and which had never,
by any chance, been since omitted in the speech of any
nobleman or gentlemen of opposite political opinions who
could by any possibility bring it in.—(hear, hear.) The
expression to which he alluded was, " a heavy blow and
great discouragement to Protestantism in Ireland"—(A
laugh);—and this expression had been a staple commodity
with all adverse orators ever since. A Right Reverend
Prelate in his discourse to his clergy ; Sir Robert Peel in
his magnificent and with-the-most-surprising-rapidity-erected
banquet-room at Glasgow ; the late Right Hon. Member for
Cumberland ; almost all the noblemen on the opposite
benches, and almost all the noble, right honourable, and
honourable Members on the corresponding benches in the
other House. All Yahops, ministers, ex-ministers, members
I of the Lords' House, and members of the ComMons' House,
seemed to gloat over this little passage. Now he begged to say