The Sun.
London, England, 1863-04-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 21, 1861

be dangerous, surely it is equally dangerous in an Irish
gaol? (Hear, hear.) It is too late to take such high
ground. (Hear, hear.) The speech of the hon, member
who moved the amendment was an excellent speech for the
time before Catholic Emancipation or the repeal of the Test
and Corporation Act, but it will not do now. (Hear, hear.)
In my opinion the strength of the Church of England does
not depend upon devices of that kind, but on deeper grounds
and on principles which are of a much more enduring
nature. (Hear, hear.) The privileges of the Church of
England represent popular rights, and as long so they re-
present popular rights national sympathy will always rally
and that great institution. The power of the Church of
England and the Protestant feeling of the country will
not be supported and maintained by a course of action
inconsistent with all our previous legislation, which by
placing obstacles in the way of that great scheme for ame-
liorating the character and condition of our criminal popu-
lation, will prevent its entire fulfilment, and must thus pro-
duce consequence injurious to society at large. (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—I am unwilling to detain the
house, but, as I have been much alluded to in the course of
the debate, lam anxious to state shortly the ground on
which, in full consistency with what I have done and said
on cormer occasions, I shall give my hearty support to the
second reading of this bill. (Hear, hear.) If this question
were that which it has been represented to be by many
who have taken part in the debate, a question between Pro-
testants and Roman Catholics, I, who am as sincere a Pro-
testant as any who oppose the bill, and who, in a fair and
honourable sense, am as much an anti-Catholic as they,
should undoubtedly oppose a measure which I thought in-
consistent with the interests of the Protestant Church.
But my view of tho bill is entirely different. (Hear, hear,)
I think it is a question, not between Protestants and Catho-
lics but between sound sense and most respectable and
honourable prejudice. (Laughter.) There are no prejudices
which are more lasting in men's minds than those founded
on the perversion of honourable and reasonable opinions.
(Hear, hear.) The perversion of the best is often produc-
t.ve of the worst results. I was in hopes that all preju-
dices on these matters had been dispelled some 34 years ago
when this house resolved upon the longest deliberation,and
in consequence of discussion lasting for years, that distinc-
tion of religious opinions should make no distinction in civil,
political, or social condition. (Hear, hear.) Parliament,
when it repealed the penal laws; affirmed substantantially
the principle that no danger was to be apprehended to the
Protestant faith from the intercourse of Catholic priests
with any part of the community. We have affirmed the
principle that there is no danger to the Protestant religion
in the access of Roman Catholic priests to those who in this
and the other House of Parliament are intrusted with the
duty of voting on matters which deeply affect the welfare of
the nation. (Hear, hear.) We see no danger to the Pro-
testant Church from a Catholic priest having intercourse
with officers and soldiers who bear arms in the service of the
country,and on whom the destinies of the nation may depend.
Are we, then, to be called on to say that there will be danger
to the Protestant Church and the Protestant religion if a
Roman Catholic priest have access, not to men within these
wall or who bear arms in the service of the country, but to
men confined in a prison suffering for their crimes, and
whom it is the duty of the State, if possible, to reform ?
(Cheers.) To reject this measure would be to act in oppo
sition to everything which has been the foundation of the
policy of this country for the last 34 years. It has been well
argued that it would be a reversal of the policy which
has been pursued in regard to the improvement of the con-
dition of the criminal population. There is nothing which
has more occupied the attention of men than the means of
reforming the criminal during the period of his confine-
ment. And are Catholic prisoners to he less the objects of
our attention than Protestant ? (Hear.) Or is it that you
consider the Catholic so hopeless a criminal that nothing
can redeem him, and therefore you would let him go out of
prison in the same moral condition as he entered it ? That
is not the opinion of men who have devoted themselves to
the moral improvement of the criminal. (Hear, hear.) But,
then, it is argued, he can have the advice of the Protestant
clergyman. (Hear.) But will any man who knows any-
thing of human nature tell me that the advice of the Pro-
testant clergyman would be as effective as that of the mi-
nister of his own religion? (Hear, hear.) What are his
earliest impressions ? He may forget the precepts of good,
but he will not forget the impressions instilled into his mind
when he was told that there was something in the Protes-
tant religion which he should avoid as inconsistent with
his salvation. Well, that impression will remain when the
Protestant clergyman comes
to give his spiritual advice.
Give him, then, the benefit of having advice and consola-
tion from a man who approaches him with all the advan-
tages derived from early associations. (Hear.) But, then,
I am.told there are complaints. Yes, but complaints which
are founded on facts are more powerful than
.complaints

which are founded on prejudice: We know there are a
great many Catholic :prisoners who cannot have access to
ministers of their own religion. We are told they do not ask
for them. (Hear.) Yes, the man who wants religious in-
struction most is the very man least likely to ask for it.
(Hear, hear.) The very fact that he does not ask for it is
the most conclusive proof that he stands in need of it.
(Hear, hear.) You might as well say that an ignorant boy
at school did not ask for a lesson. (Laughter.) Why, the
more he stood in need of instruction the more he would
like to go to play and avoid his lessons. (Hear, hear.) So
it is with the criminal, the more he needs instruction
the less likely is he to ask for it ; and the religious instruc-
tion which he would receive from a minister of his own faith

is that which is most likely to go to his heart, to improve
his mind, and to send him out of prison a better man than
he was before. (Hear.) There is nothing, I think, unge-
nerous in endeavouring to take advantage of the compulsory
seclusion of a criminal in order to sap the faith in which he
was born. (Hear.) I am for all being Protestants—(a
laugh)—and if it were possible to conceive such a thing that
every Roman Catholic in the United Kingdom should rise
up to-morrow a Protestant, I should say that it would be a
blessed thing for the country. (Laughter.) But don't let
us attempt making proselytes by taking advantage of the
seclusion of criminals in a prison to which they have been
consigned as well for improvement as for punishment.
(Hear.) I hope, then, the house will not go back, as I think
they would do by
assenting to the rejection of this bill, from
that course of policy which we have so long pursued. but
that hon. members will feel that, so far from the bill being
a danger, it will be a source of strength to the Church of
England, by removing a subject of obloquy and reproach.
(Cheers.)
After some observations from Mr. NEWDEGATE, and a
vain attempt of Mr. WBALLEY to obtain a hearing,
The house divided, the numbers being—
For the second reading ................ 152
Against it
Majority ---30
ASSURANCES OF REGISTRATIONS (IRELAND)
BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill, the de-
bate, which had been adjourned from April 16, was resumed
by

Mr. WHITESIDE, who begged the house, before pass-
ing the bill, to take into consideration its size. It related
to the whole kingdom of Ireland, and not only to the land,
but to all charges upon the land in that kingdom, He be-
lieved the Parliament of Ireland had passed the bill of the
7th of Queen Anne because they understood what they were
doing. They had passed a bill which had worked well in
the kingdom for the general registration of assurances, and
shown sense and discrimination when they passed the law
which the house was now called upon to subvert. The
complaint he had against the present bill was that it revo-
lutionised a state of things which had existed in Ireland for
a century and a half. The Act of the Irish Parliament pro-
vided in the clearest manner f.r the registration of memo-
rials of deeds, and moreover required the registrar to give a
very large security against negligence. Why those excel-
lent regulations were to be abolished he could not under-
stand. The right hon. gentleman then went through the
several acts that had been passed since the Union, and de-
clared the bill objectionable on two grounds—first, that it
was a bill to create Government patronage; and, secondly,
that it would enable a " black list" to be drown up by any
parties so disposed, in the same way as lists of judgments,
&c., were published in England, The hon. and learned
gentleman referred to the passing of the Act of the 11th of
Victoria, which had proved to be fatally futile, inasmuch as
nobody ever resorted to it. In Ireland people had more 1
reliance on a search made at their own request, and for
which they paid, than one which had been made in past
times. It was upon this mode of registration that a system
of jurisdiction was built up in Ireland which had existed for
upwards of a century. Every word of the statute of Queen
Anne had been expounded by the ablest men who had sat
upon the Irish bench, and it had been expounded in the old

Irish House of Lords. His great objection then to this bill
was that where they had a law settled, ascertained, and adju•
dPated upon by the very highest authorities, it was unwise
and impolitic, unless there was an overpowering necessity
for it, to change the law that was thoroughly understood
and well paid for by the gentlemen of Ireland. In defence
of the Registry Office, the hon. and learned gentleman
challenged the Chief Secretary for Ireland and the S
elici-
tor-General to state a single authenticated instance of irre-
gularity or neglect on the part of that office. He admitted
there were delays in consequence of the vast mass of busi-
ness cast upon it, but this was all that could be said against
it. The hon. gentb-man never made a more unfortunate
misstatement than when he said the office was in a state of
confusion. On the contrary, the care, precision, and accu-
racy with which the business was conducted was beyond all
praise, and the only man who had imposed on the court by
the committal of forgery was the late John Sadlier. The
court had arranged one million of memorials with so much
care and precision, that any one of them might be found in
a very short space of time. The other work was kept up
close, and the arrears was a myth, and he considered it was
impossible to construct an office that would do the work
more safe, secure, and perfect than the one in existence.
The right hon. gentleman, alter certain lengthened intro-
ductory remarks upon what might be termed the history of
the case, proceeded to state seriatim his objections to the
bill, which were very numerous. He objected to what he
described as the patronage clause, under which the nomi-
nation to some sixty appointments in the new registry office
would be vested in the Lord Lieutenant, instead of in the
Treasury, and then to the superintendence and management
of all the departments being devolved upon the judges of
the Landed Estates Gourt. He also refused to assent to
the appointment of some thirty or forty temporary clerks