The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-03 00:00:00

MING-HAM UNION RAILWAY.

Mr. C. BE R KEL Y presented a petition very numerous
and respectably signed by the inhabitants of Cheltenham,
favour of this Bill ; also a petition from Charlton-Kings to tl
same effect, and another petition from Cheltenham agaio'
certain clauses of the Bill, but not against the second readinf.
Mr. BAILEY presented petitions from Worcester, Droll
witch, and other places, in favour of the Bill.
Lord G. LENNOX presented a petition from Georg
Pechell, a Captain in the Royal Navy, against the Oxfot
Branch of the railroad, and stating that he would be eon
pletely ruined if the Bill as it stood were allowed to pass int
a law.
Mr. E STCOURT presented a petition against the Bt'
from the University of Oxford.
Lord NORRE YS presented a similar petition from th
occupiers of land in the county of Oxford to the same effect.
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, prt
sented a petition, signed by between 3 and 4,000 of the no
nufacturers engaged in the woollen trade in Gloucester, again
the Bill, and complaining that the Bill, if passed, would Cu
them off from all communication with London.
Mr. PRA ED rose to move the second reading of the nil
He understood that the unusual course was to be adopted
opposing the Bill on its second reading. On what groin
that opposition was to be founded he was at a loss to conjec
ture, as lie felt confident if any measure deserved the sanctie
of the House this did. The object of the Bill was to male
a Railway from Cheltenham to Oxford, and from thenc
to Birmingham and London, by which the nearest comma
nication would be effected ultimately to Ireland, and frol
thence to the extreme Northern and Southern parts of th'
country. He thought that the extreme importance
such a communication would determine the House not t
reject the Bill. He could not conceive any undertakin
that had a better claim upon the attention of the Hon'
than that which was to have the effect of making the dire(
communication from London to Cheltenham, from which plat
the traffic of passengers was quite as extensive as that frot
London t o Brighton. That was the immediate object of tb
Bill. He would not now go into any particulars of the detail
or circumstances connected with it, as this was of all times an,
places the most inconvenient ; but he would content himself wit
stating the general circumstances which in his opinion justifie
the Bill. It rested with the parties who had promoted th
Bill to show that they had done that which, by the monls
tions of the House, it was necessary they should do. '1"
promoters of the Bill wore prepared to show that they had th
consent of three-fourths of the landholders through which th
line passed. They were prepared, also, to show that nine
tenths of the capital had been subscribed.; and they had als
numerous petitions from the inhabitants of several larF
towns in its favour. They were also prepared to show al°
of Directors, sufficiently well known to guarantee to the Huns
that the undertaking was a bone fide one. The Director
were men of character and capital, and that character and ea
pital they were prepared to risk upon the undertaking. 1,11
question, then, was, who were the opponents of the Bill ?
the landholders or the inhabitants of the great towns throub
which the line would pass, but it came from a rival Coln
parry. He was prepared to show that the Great Western Rat
road had no right to come before the House, and offer opP°'
sition to the Bill. The Great Western Railway was to pas
from Bristol to London, several miles South of the Railsca
then under consideration.—( Hear.) The inhabitants
Cheltenham at first assented to the Bill and subscribed for it
but had subsequently altered their minds for a reason he went
state to the House ; and just before the Committee had closet
their proceedings, some of the inhabitants of Cheltenham all:;
plied for leave to be heard by Counsel against the Bill.
Committee decided they were too late in their application au,
refused to hear them. An application was made by an Wr,
Member for the recommittal of the Bill, and he could assn
the House that that motion was either withdrawn or rejeet.e-.
upon the express understanding that the Bill would be !,,ai
troduced as a private measure of itself, and reeeti,,-,i
the consideration of a Committee of the House. The par:b-i
at Cheltenham refrained from an earlier opposition to
ttiir4
Swindon Railway Bill, in consequence of their relying enm,
representations of the engineer of the London line, tc
Brunel, who stated that any direct line from Cheltenbair
to
London was impracticable. He (Mr. Praed) was prepare,
cO,
show that the direct line from Cheltenham to London ',id,
practicable. The town of Stroud had so little traffic 's
London, that, in spite of its connection with the Secretary 9,
II State, one stage-coach MI sufficient for its communicattooc
while from London to Cheltenham 100 went daily e key
would call to the recollection of the House to what had la,nd
place a few nights ago on the subject of the South VillwaY
Manchester Railway. The London and Birmingham Raasure
Company, on that occasion, complained that the me iir,e,
then before the House was an interference with the cp.
and they wished to have a monopoly, stating that theYceiv.
pected no less a sum than 8,000,0001., without as yet roc the
ing a single shilling of return ; but the answer given, by the,
Honourable Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, and of
House, was, that when that Company received 10 A
cno-
Incorporation, the Legislature had destroyed the
id oat
nopoly of coach-proprietors, &c., and they vi %oar.
now establish a similar monopoly in their , were
In the present case, the whole of the Standing 0rde.r.'.11,3
complied with—a larger share of capital was subscri_nourisent
greater number of landed proprietors had
to the undertaking, than to any other line of railway net
ever came before that House. He asked lion. Mem a Corti"
to consent to the passing of the Bill, but to send it to
given their e
_web
mittee, where its merits could be best investigated.
oslteo
Captain PE CIIE LL said he had withdrawn his
,e.'oP..rti
to the second reading of the Bill for the Branch 0%1 '
d to g°
way, on the understanding that it would be allow! , ioto•
uireu
into a Committee, where its merits might be en(l,,,,nont"
After what had fallen from the lion. Member for c vibe
• on those he considered it would be a gross injustice w
advocated the measure before the House, if '"

,

n

I ))

alloned to have the Bill read a second time. He sup-
ported the MI, because it would obviate the necessity of
encroaching- upon the private property of individuals, as was
contemplated by the promoters of the Oxford line. That he
considered to be the great leviathan which swallowed up the
whole of the county of Oxford, and the line through which it
was proposed to pass. If the present parties were not al-
lowed to go before a Committee, it would be a monstrous
injustice to all concerned in it.
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES hoped the House would allow
the second reading of the Bill. Ile had presented petitions
from the great body of his constituents in its favour.
Mr. PO Ul. ETT SC RO PE thought the principle in-
volved in the opposition to the present Bill went to the
very basis of all their proceedings as regarded Railway re-
gulations. The object the House had in view in its regula-
tions upon that subject was to prevent the unnecessary mul-
tiplication of railways throughout the country—to prevent the
lavish and useless expenditure of capital—to prevent the
estates of landowners from being improperly interfered with,
and to prevent unwary shareholders from being entrapped by
plausible speculations. If he was right in supposing that such
was the object of all their legislation with respect to railways,
he would ask, uould not these proceedings be entirely stulti-
fied, if, after Parliament had investigated a line, with a view
to ascertain the amount of traffic, and had given its sanction
to that line, they would now admit another line, which laid
claim to the same traffic as that laid down on the previous
line ?—( Hear.) If that was done, what was the use of their
making any calculations at all upon the amount of traffic?
The Hon. Member for Yarmouth had alluded to the obser-
vations made by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for
Tamworth, as to the propriety of encouraging railways; but the
House must first be satisfied that there was room for another
railway on a line previously occupied. He would ask the
House whether, after having sanctioned one railway, they
Would now give up their time and attention in Committee to
the details of the Bill, having precisely the same objects
in view ? He begged to call the attention of those Hon. Mem-
bers who were on the Committee on the Great. Western
Railway Bill, that the traffic upon the line between Glou-
cester and London was calculated to a certain point,
and for that purpose a branch was made to Swindon.
The Bill for that purpose was passed therefore the whole
line between London and Gloucester was in a course of exe-

cution—all the money was subscribed to the amount of
750,000/., and he would ask under such circumstances what
would be the effect of allowing other rail-roads to come in,
and without delay appear as competing lines? In his opinion
the effect would be, that all railroads so effected would not be
carried on with any spirit or vigour—they would be carried on
doubtfully, slowly, and without vigour—the country intersected
by rival lines, not one-half of which would ever be completed.
He considered it would be a gross injustice to the whole of the
shareholders, by preventing them from that share of profit which
they were led to expect when they procured their original Bill
---to the landholders through whose property they went—in
fact, to every one connected with railroads. Upon these
grounds, and upon the general principle that the House should
not stultify their resolutions, he moved that the Bill be read
that day six months.
After a few words from an Hon. Member, who was totally
inaudible,
Mr. P. M. STE WART was sure that the House would
not listen to the motion of the Hon. Member for Stroud ( Mr.
P. Scrope), if they would do him the honour to listen to him
for one moment. He ( Mr. Stewart) had last session moved
the re-committal of this Bill. It was then distinctly laid down
that this was not a competing line with the Swindon Rail-
way, and that when this Railway was brought forward, it
Rail-
should be considered on its own merits. Not only was
there a distinct resolution of the House to this effect,
which induced him to withdraw his motion for the recommit-
Mont of this Bill, but the other House had come to a
distinct resolution to the same effect. He was astonished that
the Hon. Member for Stroud should have the boldness to get
up and call upon the House to violate the principle it had itself
laid down with respect to railways. lie was sure that if the
House believed that this was the understanding upon which he
had withdrawn his motion for a re• committal, they would
nut consent to the motion of the Hon. Member for Stroud.
The list to which this railway had been referred was the
strongest and most respectable that had ever been submitted
to that House; and they had come to the resolution, as the
'louse had also done, that this was not a competing line of
railroad--that it was a distinct and different line; and yet the
whole argument of his Honourable Friend the Member for
Stroud was, that this was a competing line. He called upon
the House to adhere to their own resolution of last Session.
As he had been too late to present a petition upon the subject
from Woodstock, he hoped the House would now allow him
to do so, in order that it might have its weight upon the deci-
sion of he House.

Air. CRIPPS thought, if this line were allowed to be pro-
ceeded with, it would inflict a very great hardship upon the
other Company. It had been said that the other line was not
proceeding. He denied the truth of that statement ; and
could assure the House that it was progressing most rapidly.
The opponents to the Bill were not afraid of going into Com-
mittee, as they were convinced before that tribunal they would
adduce facts which would induce them to throw out the Bill.
The statement made by the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R.
Peel) the other night, had no application whatever to the
present case, and if this Bill were allowed to pass, it would be
impossible for either of the Companies to go on.—( Loud cries
of " Divide, divide.")
Sir H. VERNON thought the House could not decide
which would be the best line, but public competition would.
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE begged to remind the
House that the proposed line would be a saving of 22 miles be-
tween London and Cheltenham ; but it was not upon that
ground alone that he advocated it. He supported it because
it was connected with the interests of the intermediate places.
The present railroad was an extension of the line to Aylesbury,
and it was intended to continue it in a north-easterly direction
connecting the western and eastern parts of England. Ile
thought sufficient reasons were adduced to allow the Bill to go
to a Committee.
Mr. ROBINSON protested against compelling his consti-
tuents at Worcester to go a round, as they would be, in case
they had only the Swindon Railway to travel by. He hoped
the House would consent to the second reading of the Bill,
and send it to a Committee, where its merits might be can-
vassed.

Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY merely rose for the pur-
pose of bearing testimony to the respectability of the par-
ties who had signed the four petitions which had been pre-
Eented by him. It was quite clear that the opposition
to the present Bill did not arise from the landowners, but
from opposing Railroad Companies, and among those the
Great Western Railway was conspicuous, because the pre-
ut line did not branch into it.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE rose amid loud cries of
" Spoke, spoke." He was understood to say that the Bill
of last Session had for its object the connection of the manufac-
turing district of Gloucester with London, and as that was not
Ihe object of the present line, he had felt it his duty to oppose
;;'—( Loud cries of " Question, and divide," amid which the
"on. Member said he would withdraw his amendment).
The Bill was then read a second time.
A discussion took place as to the list to which the Bill
°ught to be referred ; some Honourable Members contending
that it should be referred to the Buckingham list, inasmuch
as there were more Members from towns connected with the
railroad than in Gloucestershire, even though the terminus
was in the latter county.
Evehtually the Bill was referred to the Buckingham list, to
i ioe h were added all the members fur counties and boroughs
which the railway was to pass.
GREAT WESTERN (PADDINGTON) RAILWAY.
Alr. SHEPPARD presented a petition from Mr. John
w
hite of Westbourn Green, in opposition to this Bill.
GRANTON HARBOUR.
On the motion of Sir GEORGE CLERK this Bill was
read a first time.
Mr. HAWES presented a petition from Paddington pray-
'nig for the extension of the Great Western Railway to that
Place.

Captain PECHELL, before he presented the petition he
held in his hand, wished to know whether the rule that
had been laid down with respect to the presentation of peti-
tions. prevented Hon. Members from stating, as briefly as
Possible, the particulars connected with petitions against Rail-
way Bills. He had presented several petitions of that nature, but
he had been debarred from entering into a statement of their
merits, in consequence of the rule which the House had
adopted. The result was, that there was no possibility of stating
the views of the petitioners till their case was brought before
the Committee. He thou,ht that in cases where petitions
te
st were
dagainst Bills, that the grounds of objection should be
a.
to tall
The SPEAKER made a
,few observations which where
y inaudible in the Gallery.
Capt. PECEIELL stated his readiness to bow to the deci-
sion of the Chair, and he would now merely present, without
Qunment, a petition with which he was entrusted by a gentle-
!nail of the name of Field, against the Oxford and Birming-
t_nt n Railway. The ground on which the petitioner objected
to that undertaking was the great injury it would inflict on his
property,
Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from Dublin,
against the Dublin and Kilkenny Railway.
PUBLIC WALKS.
which,r• BUCKINGHAM brought in the Public Walks Bill,
was read a first time.
YORK AND NORTH MIDLAND RAILWAY.
Mr. LOWTHER moved the second reading of the York
and North Midland Railway Bill.
Mr. lIANDLEY did not wish to throw out the Bill in its
present stage, but he wished the 2nd reading of the Bill to be
postponed for one week. Agreements had been entered into
avvhich had been the subject of discussion in the Courts below, and _ Judgment was likely
ato be given to-morrow, or in
Made very few days, with reference to an agreement
with Lord Howden, that his Lordship should
receive certain remuneration from that Company, in
Llr.?nsideration of the line going over part of his estate. Lord
.42den had brought an action against the promoters of the
traand they in order to stay proceedings had instituted a suit in
ncery' Now he (Mr. Handley) believed the object of
r e promoters of the Bill to gain this stage of the second
teadnig, was to frustrate the ends of justice, and he therefore
ttsted that the House would consent to the postponement of
1.1 e_second reading.
Mr. Lo WT H E R. could not consent to postpone the second
reading of the Bill.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to Mr. Lowther and the Yorkshire list.
WORCESTER CATTLE MARKET.
brz`nl,the motion of Mr. ROBINSON, leave was given to
ii:ttit
tretay Bill to
ot•o erect a Cattle Market, in the city market,
of rcester.
POST-OFFICE REGULATIONS.
.114:1130
ftrAtI36O.I3CHER.. E said lie rose to ask the leave of the
introduction of several Bills to consolidate the

laws relating to the Post-office. Those laws were now scattered
over the Stitute Book. There were 141 Acts, or parts of
Acts, relating to the Post-office—they were so nume-
rous and so scattered as to lead to great inconve-
nience to the public, as well as to the department
which they regulates!. He thought, and had long felt, that it
was extremely desirable that those Acts should be consolidated,
and so arranged, that at once they would be understood and
easy of access.—( Hear.) It was not his object to throw
blame upon the establishment of the Post-office--indeed he felt
bound to say that when the Commissioners turned their atten-
tion to this subject, they found that a most intelligent and useful
officer of the establishment, Mr. Peacock, the Solicitor to
the Post-office, had already considered the subject, and
that it was then engrossing much of his attention.
The Government had long felt the necessity for such
a consolidation of the laws as was then proposed. He be-
lieved the reason of the delay had been a fear on their part
that as the Bills must comprise every point relating to
the management of the Post-office they would lead to much
discussion, and would therefore interfere vith the pro-
gress of the other business of the House.—(Hear.)
He had felt that difficulty so strongly, that notwithstanding
his extreme desire for a consolidation of those laws, he
would not have felt himself justified in introducing the
Bills, had he not communicated with those Gentlemen who
usually took part in the discussions relative to the Post-office,
and had their assurance that they would consider them as
Bills merely for consolidation—so that they would not in-
terfere with the important business already before the House.
Of course these gentlemen would speak for themselves. He
hoped the House would have the kindness to exercise its
usual indulgence in allowing him to bring in these Bills—
that they would be pleased to consider them simply
as a consolidation of the existing laws—as lie certainly
had endeavoured to keep out of these Bills anything
that might endanger their success. The Bills which he pro-
posed were four in number. The first was simply to repeal all pre-
vious Acts relating to the Post-office. The second was to regulate
the criminal laws relating to the Post-office; the third re-
lated to the management of the Post-office, and the rates of
postage, and the fourth to the privilege of franking letters.
He had stated that the measure he proposed was one
of mere consolidation, and that it contained no substantial
alteration. At the same time in that which related almost
entirely to the criminal law, lie believed there was no diffe-
rence of opinion as to the policy of alterations which he
meant to propose.—( Hear.) lie was, therefore, desirous
of stating these alterations. This Bill related almost entirely
to the differences existi.ig between the punishments for the
same crimes in the English and Irish post-office. —( Hear,
hear, hear.) The difference was this, that a very much
heavier penalty attached to the same offences in
England and in Ireland. Whilst the penalty of death was
liable to be inflicted in Ireland, the same offence was simply a
misdemeanour in this country. lie was sure the House would
not longer allow these differences to remain on the Statute book,
and he, therefore, proposed to alter the Criminal Law in this
respect. lie had communicated with his Hon. and 1 earned
Friend, the Attorney- General ; and it was under his sanction
that these alterations were proposed. The offences of robbing
the mail-coach, or stopping it with intent to rob, were
punishable with death in Ireland. In this country the punish-
ment was transportation for life; and he proposed that this
penalty in future should attach to the same offence in Ireland
as well as in England. He proposed also that the offences
of stealing a letter, or opening and detaining it, should be
visited with the same punishments in Ireland as in Great Bri-
tain.—( Hear, hear.) There was one other point of diffe-
rence relating to the two countries—namely, the privilege
of franking enjoyed by the Irish Members and the English
Members. He proposed in future that this privilege should
be assimilated. He need not trouble the House with any
further observations, and would conclude by moving fur leave
to bring in a Bill to alter the criminal law relating to the
Post Office.

Mr. WALLACE begged leave to second the proposal of
the Right Honourable Gentleman. He could assure the
llouse that after a most anxious inquiry into the laws
it was now proposed to consolidate, he was convinced that
this was one of the most beneficial measures that had been
brought before the House for a long series of years. The
laws upon this subject, he believed, amounted in number to
160 or I64—he could not say which, as they were
in such a state of confusion as to render it almost impossible
to determine which had been repealed, and which had not.
—(Loud cries of Hear.") He thought great good would
be effected by making one or two good laws out of the
whole; the grievances which now existed, and which were
greatly complained of, would be put an end to by altering and
consolidating the laws upon this subject.—(Cheers.) He
could not sit down without expressing his sincere thanks to the
Commissioners on the Post-office Inquiry for the mode
in which they had conducted their different departments,
and he could assure the Right Honourable Gentleman
and his coadjutors, that they would find a general
response to that statement among the public generally. No
Gentleman could read the Report of the Post-office Commis-
sioners without being convinced of the great good that would
be effected by carrying their suggestions into effect. He
hoped most anxiously that Hon. Members would accede to
what the Right Hon. Gentleman had brought forward, and
encourage him, by all means in their power, to consolidate the
laws upon this subject.
Mr. 11 UNIE thought it was of no use to pass laws unless there
was an efficient executive to carry them into efkct. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer last year had introduced a/ Bill
for the purpose of altering the executive of the Post-office—
that Bill passed that House with little or no opposition ;
but in another place it was taken no notice of, on
the ground that they had not time to attend to it.
It was of great importance that the change in the Post-office,
proposed last Session, if it were to be introduced this Session
at all, should be introduced as soon as possible. The propo-
sition was to place the executive in Commissioners instead of
one Postmaster-General, who was a Peer, and had too
much to do elsewhere to enable him to attend to the
affairs of the Post-office.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Hume) did
not think that there would be much advantage derived
by having the head of the Post-office in the House of Com-
mons ; but he was unwilling to throw any difficulties
in the way of the plan of the Government. He hoped
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state, that
he intended speedily to introduce the Bill, so that
it might have full consideration in the other House, and not
be rejected under the plea that it was sent up there at a
late period of the Session.—( Hear, hear.) There was no
department of the public revenue that required so much
attention as the Post-office. The amount of revenue

derived from the Postlofice-;ras tilesarie-incieed as it was
15 years ago, which could only be attributed to great neglect
and mismanagement. It was therefore due to the country,
if the Post-office was to be made the source of revenue,
which he thought a bad principle—(Cries of Hear. hear)—_
that it should be rendered as advantageous as possible. In
conclusion, he trusted they would soon have an Executry which
would render that department efficient for the purposes for
which it was established, and make it productive of profit—at
present it was neither.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who
spoke with his back towards the Gallery, and in a very low
tone, was understood to say that he adhered to the opinion
which he had expressed last Session, that the Post-office
department in its present state was defective.—( Hear, hear.)
He admitted also that in order that measures of this kind

should be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, they ought
to be introduced at an early, not at a late period
of the Session, in order to give thee for their con-
sideration in another place ; and, without pledging himself
to the details of the measure, he would state to the Hon. Mem-

ber that it was the intention of the Government to introduce

a Bill in a few days on the subject. The Right lion. Gen-
tleman proceeded to reply to the other questions put by Mr.
flume, but in so low a tone of voice, and in such a position in
reference to the Gallery, that none of his observations could

be heard by the Reporters.
Major BE A IiCLEIZK was surprised that the Post-
office Duties had not increased, but it was owing in a
great degree to the immoderate charge for postage. The
postage on letters operated as a heavy tax on the trading
classes of the community; and he hoped, after the consolida-
tion contemplated, that they would get rid of so great a
grievance. •

Leave was then given to bring in the Bills.
SITTING OE THE HOUSE.
The SPEAKER intimated his intention to sit to. morrow
at three o'clock, and continue to receive till four petitions on
public business, after which the private business would be
proceeded with.

MARINE INSURANCE.
Mr. ROBINSON presented a petition, signed by
six hundred persons, comprising the intelligence of
the city of London, as connected with the shipping in-
terest, praying for a reduction of the duty on Marine
Insurances. Also one from Liverpool, most numerously
signed, to the same effect.

POOR LAWS (IRELAND).
In answer to a question from an Hon. MEMBER,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
had hoped that the second reading of the Poor-law Bill for
Ireland would hare been had the night before last. He
would regret to bring on the discussion in the absence of the
Noble Lord who introduced the measure—alear)—but
he also agreed with the Hon. Member that the earliest time

that could be fixed would be the best.—(Hear,y-
hear.
It was certainly of the utmost importance they should
have an early discussion on the Bill, in order that they
should receive the suggestions of Hon. Members—that time
should be given for their circulation in Ireland—and that
the Government should have time for considering the sug-
gestions which might be thrown out. He would take an early
opportunity of seeing his Noble Friend, when they would fix as
early a period as possible for the -discussion, and he would in-
form the House of their determination as soon as possible.
CHURCH-RATES.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know, from the flight Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what course he in-

tended to pursue with respect to the measure he was about
to introduce respecting Church-rates ? The Right Hon.
Gentleman might have an object in placing his resolu-
tion upon the paper, unaccompanied by any explanation;
but he trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman did not pro-
pose that the House should express an opinion upon the
principle of the measure on the first night of its being
introduced.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He supposed that
it was intended by the Right Honourable Gentleman to
move his resolution in Committee, which was the usual
course in matters affecting the Church—no doubt
the Right Honourable Gentleman meant to adhere to this
course. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would move
his resolutions in Committee, involving, as they did, the
whole principle of his plan, and affecting the most
important interests of the Established Church, and
also the interests of a great number of individuals....
(Hear, hear.) lie trusted that the Right Honourable

Gentleman did not intend to do more than state the out-
line of the plan he wished to propose, and move his
resolutions, so as to give an opportunity of two or
three days' consideration, before inviting the House
to pronounce their deliberate opinion upon the principles
involved in those resolutions. lie cared not how early
that day might be afterwards ; but in a matter of
such importance, brought forward for the first time,
he was sure the House would recognise the justice of his de-
mand, that there should be a sufficient interval between the
statement of the principles of the measure, and the time when
that House should be called upon to pronounce its deliberate
opinion on such principles.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
course he intended to take to-morrow was that which was
forced on him by the forms of the House, and by those forms a
Bill of the character which he was about to introduce must
originate in a Committee of the whole House. If l►e asked
for leave to bring in a Bill, and if there were nothing
contrary to a decided principle in it, gentlemen on both sides
were in the habit of admitting it to be introduced, re-
serving to themselves the right of discussing it at a
future period. lie, however, could not take that course
now—he must have a resolution of the whole House in
order to be enabled to introduce his measure, and the object
of the Government in doing so was just and candid;
and he would put in that resolution the whole of the facts,
and in doing so he did not act with a view of asking Hon.
Gentlemen to commit themselves more than they would
if he asked for leave to bring in a Bill ; and in
moving this resolution on the subject of the nature of
Church-rates, he would be enabled to place the Bill be-
fore the public, which was of the utmost importance. He
was most willing to arrange the matter to suit the con-
venience of Honourable Gentlemen who differed in opi-
nion from hint ; but he anticipated from what had fallen
from the Right lion. Gentleman himself, that he was desirous
that the question should not be postponed longer than was
consistent with an early expression of opinion upon it.
He was anxious to do whatever would accommodate Mem-
bers on the other side of the House. If submitting his re-
solutions, and then discussing them at a subsequent period,
when alone leave would be given to bring in the Bill,
would meet the views of the Right Hon. Baronet, he was
ready to accede to that plan. They would thus have tile reso-
lutions printed, and have the Chancellor of the Exchequer's
statement, such as it was, before them, and they would go in
some measure prepared to its consideration.--( Hear.) He
thought that would answer the purpose the Right Hon. Baro-
net had in view. Nothing in the world was further from his
intention than to take any course which might compromise
those Hon. Members who differed from him. If it were con-
sidered that that plan would give him (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) any advantage in the discussion, he was quite
ready to adopt any other course the Right lion. Baronet
'night suggest.—( Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL—It appeared that the Right Hon. Gentleman
himself concurred in the course which appeared most de-
sirable, and that was the course which he (Sir R. Peel) took
in 1835, when he was Minister, on the Irish Tithe Bill,
and the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Horne Department
had admitted that he would not feel himself committed by ac-
ceding to that proposition.--( Bear.) That, he believed,
was .the last decision of the House on the subject. I►► the
case of the Tithe B►ll the matter had been frequently agi-
tated, but in the present case the question was entirely
new. The fair course then would be for the Right
fio►►ourable Gentleman to state his plan and to pro-
pose his Resolutions, and then adjourn to as early
a day as possible the farther debate upon the subject
of the affirmation or rejection of these resolutions.
It was important to come to a decision as soon as possible
with respect to the Irish Poor-laws; and probably if the course
he had suggested were pursued, and the discussion was not
long, an opportunity might be afforded of going into that
question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he should adopt the course the Right Hon. Baronet opposite
had stated that he thought best to pursue. It was true
that he had adopted a similar course in the introduction of
the Irish Bill in 1835. He shculd to-morrow make a
statement, and move his resolutions with respect to the
Church-rates. Whether the debate was proceeded with or post-
poned was another question. The Right lion. Baronet knew
the House of Commons too well to think of fixing that a priori.
The subject had excited a good deal of interest in the country,
and it would probably lead to some lengthened discussion. With
respect to the Irish Poor Law Bill he could make no arrangement.
He should not ask the House to come to any decision to-
morrow on Church-rates, though be was convinced a decision
should be come to as early as possible. It was, however, a
subject which, in its preliminary discussion, ought to be ac-
companied by the Bill itself, in order to make that prelimi-
nary discussion intelligible to all parties.
Sir. ROBERT PEEL objected to the Irish Poor Laws
coming on without sufficient notice. He wished to know what
course was intended to be adopted with respect to Monday.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Canada question was fixed for Monday, but what course it
would take would depend very much upon the debate of
to morrow night.

MARINE INSURANCES.
Mr. ROBINSON again rose for the purpose of presenting
a petition from the merchants of London, praying for the
reduction of the duty on Marine Insurances, and also to
submit the resolutions of which he had given notice upon
that subject ; hut in consequence of the noise occasioned
by Members leaving the House, the Honourable Member
was for some time inaudible. When order was re-
stored, we understood the Honourable Member to say
the petition, corning as it did from the intelligence, respect-
ability, and wealth of the City of London, connected with
the trade, commerce, and navigation of the country, supported
also by petitions from England, Ireland, and Scotland, and from
all the large trading and manufacturing towns of the kingdom,
he was certain would have great weight with the House.
There was one allegation in the petition which he would state
to the House as well worthy of their attention. In the year
1;310, the imparts and exports of the United Kingdom amounted
to eighty millions, and at that time the annual duty on
Marine Policies was 414,2051. At the present moment
the imports and exports were estimated at 125 millions;
but so far from the Stamp Duty on the Marine Policies
having brought into the Exchequer a corresponding increase
of revenue, it had absolutely dwindled down to 219,0001.
( Hear, hear.) Nothing, he thought, could show stronger the
impolicy of the tax. The trade and commerce of the country
hal increased about 44,000,0001., but still the revenue derived
from marine insurances had decreased nearly one•half. Now,
this was a highly-important fact, as tending to. demonstrate
the impolicy of the system. It was no doubt true that the
tax might be continued, but it was equally certain that, not
only would the sum to be derived front it by the revenue di-
minish every day, but that it would throw a decided advan-
tage into the hands of foreign countries, by affording induce-
ments to have insurances effected abroad rather than at home.
The Hon. Gentlemen showed that between 1814 and 1835 a
great increase had taken place in the amount of marine insu-
rances effected at Hamburgh, Antwerp, and other commer-
cial towns on the Continent. In the United States of Ame-
rica there was no stamp-duty on the marine insurances ; and
in France not only were they free from duty of any kind, but
exempted even from the operation of die patent laws.
Such a duty was not only indefensible in principle, but
highly injurious in policy, and this he could assert on
the authority of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade. The Honourable Gentleman
read a passage from a speech delivered by the Right Hon. the
President of the Board of Trade, in 1830, in which the exist-
ence of the duty on marine insurances was stated to be a Brie -
vance which should be got rid of, and added, that should
he be obliged to press his motion to a division he hoped to
have the support of the Right Hon. Gentleman's vote. It
was true that in 18:10 a reduction of this tax took place, but
what did Lord Althorp, the then Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, say on the subject ? Why, he expressed it as his opi-
nion that a reduction of it ought to be effected if possible,
and said he did not believe that a slight remission would
occasion any greater loss to the revenue than 100,000/. Well,
a reduction on a moderate scale took place, and what was
the result? Why, that so far from a loss of 100,0001. being
sustained by the revenue, the whole deficiency did not exceed
11,0001.—( Hear, hear.) He was aware that his motion would
encounter the opposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the ground that there were
a variety of other taxes as much entitled to his considera-
tion as this, and it might even be said that an individual
Member of that House should not bring forward such a
motion, until after the financial statement for the year had
been made. Now, there could be no doubt that there were
motions on the books on the subject of the soap, the window,
and the malt duties; but still, as the tax on marine insurances
did not yield more than 200,0001. to the revenue, he thought
it ought to be given up. The whole object of his resolution
was to obtain front the House and the Government an admis-
sion that it was impolitic to continue this tax—that it should
he either repealed or reduced ; and unless the Right Hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was prepared to a,sent to either
alternative it would be his duty to take the sense of the House
upon the question. Ile would admit that the duty on poli-
cies of insurance against fire was higher than that on marine
insurances, but here was a strong difference between the two
cases. The duty on marine policies were chargeable, per-
haps, twenty times in the year on each successive short voyage,
while those on fire policies were only paid once. This gave
a decided superiority to the one claim over the other. He
hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would give a satisfac-
tory answer to the question which he had put, and not resort
to evasion. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the
following resolution :—" That the gradual diminution of stamp
duty derived from marine policies during several years of in-
creasing trade, commerce, and navigation, has fully demon-
strated the impolicy of this tax in the discouragement of British
insurances and the promotion of successful foreign competition,
and that it is the duty of this house to take an early oppor-
tunity to repeal or reduce the same.
Sir J. R. REID seconded the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
without any opinion as to whether the claims of the petitioners
ought or ought not to be complied with, he would simply re-
mark, that it was very easy to make out a case on such a sub-
ject. There was scarcely any one tax that would stand the
test of argument on its own merits, as all taxes were evils in
themselves ; but then he asked the House what other course
he could take in considering what taxes should be retained,
and what ought to be either reduced or altogether repealed,
but by weighing the relative inconvenience of all ?—( Hear,
hear.) The House were not i❑ a state to come to a proper
conclusion on this subject. They had not heard what surplus
they had to dispose of; and yet the Honourable Gentleman
called upon him to declare that he would be prepared to
take off this particular• tax.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member for Manchester had a motion on the paper respect-
ing the important subject of the cotton duties ; but bow
were they to go into argnments on such questions until they