The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-30 00:00:00

itself. He should therefore propose to postpone the
voting of this item of 2,000/. till next year, when they
would be able to discover whether this dock lard would
be continued or not.

After a few observations from Sir T. BARING in sup-
port of the suggestions of Mr. HUME,
Mr. TRANT observed, that having a great regard for
the moral instruction and religious welfare of the army
and navy, he felt himself bound to support this part of the
grant.
The gallery was then cleared for a division ; but j as
the reporters were leaving it,
Mr. HUME consented to withdraw his amendment.
He had another question, however, to put to the gallant
officer opposite. How was it that he came to ask the
Committee this year to vote 3,0001. for works upon the
lakes in Canada ?

Sir G. COCKBURN said, that the sum was wanted to
keep up the works which were necessary for the repair of
the ships we had on the lakes at the close of the American
war. By the treaty then made, we had a right to keep
them in repair, though we could not increase their num-
ber. It was impossible to say what the expense of these
establishments might be in time of war; but it would
never exceed 2,008/. or 3,000/ a-year, in time of peace.
He could assure the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, that the
American ships at Sacket's Harbour were :as well taken
care of as our own.

The vote was agreed to. Several other sums were then
voted without opposition.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. S. PERCEVAL then rose to propcse the Ord-
nance Estimates to the Committee, but spoke in so low
and indistinct a tone that the greater part of his speech
was inaudible in the gallery. We understood him to say,
that be should not occupy much of the time of the
Committee, as the duty which he had to perform was
fortunately very simple. The reductions which had been
made in the Ordnance Department in the year 1820, had
been carried to the utmost point to which they could be
well carried with a due regard to the proper equipment and
permanent efficacy of that branch of the public service ;
and therefore he should not have to detain them long by
enumerating the retrenchments which had taken place in
this department. Almost the only alteration which had
been made in the estimates this year, was in their form,
which he had endeavoured to render more simple. The
ordinary of the ordnance contained all that was included
formerly under that head in the ordnance estimates for
Ireland, and the pay of barrack-masters and serjeants ;
and the extraordinaries contained all that was formerly in-
cluded under that head in the ordnance estimates for Ire-
land. They also contained the charge for the repair of
barracks, and for the remainder of the barrack estimates.
Now the ordinary for this year was 604,3471., last year
it was 608,548/., so that it was this year 4,2011. less than
it was last. The extraordinaries amounted to 8041853/.
this year; they had amounted to 822,7271. last year, so
that there was this year a saving on this head of 17,874/.
There was, however, a charge of 4,0341. for unprovided
services this year, which had no existence last year; but
there was more than a counterpoise for this increase in the
diminution which had been made in the military store
branch, which was last year 93,612/., and which was this
year only 78,455/. In this manner the total saving in the
charge for the effective this year was 33,1981., and in the
charge for the non-effective was 3,556/.,making a total saving
of 36,750. The first vote which he should have to submit to
the committee would be a sum of 85,625/., for the purpose
of defraying the expense of the civil establishments of the
ordnance at the Tower, in Pall-mall, and in Dublin, which
was 1,217/. less than the vote of last year. The expense
of the departments at Woolwich had been increased this
year by 300/., owing to the general increase of salaries
there, arising from length of service. The Hon. Gentle•
man then went through the different alterations which had
been made in the charges for the stations at home an
abroad, for the master-gunners, and for the corps of en-
gineers, but his statement of them was very imperfectly
heard in the gallery. The charge for the regiment of
artillery was this year 283,626/. That regiment bad been
greatly reduced in the year 1822, and the consequence
had been, that it had been obliged to be increased in the
year 1825, as it was found to be impossible to carry on
the service without that increase. There was, however,
he repeated, on the total ordinary of the ordnance a dimi-
nution of 4,0001. odd. The Hon. Member then entered
into a further statement of the reductions which had been
recently made, anil intimated, that under the direction of
the present Master-General, the work of reduction might
be considered as always going on ; but what the reductions
already made or still in contemplation were, it was quite
impossible to understand from the Hon. Member. He
concluded by moving, that a sum not exceeding 85,0251.
be granted to his Majesty for the purpose of defraying the
salaries to the Master-General, the Lieutenant-General,
and the other persons employed in the civil establishments
of the ordnance at the Tower, Pall-mall, and in Dublin.
Sir J. GRAHAM congratulated his Hon. Friend the
Secretary for the Ordnance upon the very clear and satis-
factory manner in which he had stated the estimates of his
department to the Committee. It must be gratifying to
the House to see his Hon. Friend dedicating his time in-
dustriously and manfully to the public service, instead of
eating the bread of idleness and cringing at the doors
of that treasury from which his father, who bad achieved
the road to eminence, had been accustomed to dispense
the patronage of the nation. So much he felt himself
called upon to say for the sake of friendship and his Hon.
Friend.—(Hear, hear.)—Though he was now addressing
the Committee from that part of the House where the
principal friends of Ministers were now generally stationed,
—[Sir James spoke from what are usually called the op-
position benches]—he did not altogether partake of the
feelings of many of the Hon. and Noble Friends whom he
then saw around him. He was not one of those persons
who professed predilection for the present administration ;
he had therefore no coyness in consenting to a resolution
condemnatory of their conduct, where he conceived that
conduct to be erroneous. He was not one of those per-
sons, whose votes were wrung from them, when he bad to
vote against Ministers, and he had therefore never refused
to give his vote in support of resolutions, which were in-
nocent in themselves, merely because they censured those
Ministers. He brought forward this motion, however,
with sincere pain and regret. He felt that a motion of this
nature, having the character of an economical reform,

especially when joined to the question of reform itself,
was obnoxious in the House ; yet he did think, that in
times like the present, a motion like that which he in-
tended to make, was demanded of him by a sense of public
duty, and he should endeavour to discharge it. He had
not the honour of a personal acquaintance with the Noble
Lord, the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance ; but he
was not ignorant of his brilliant career in arms, which
had commenced from early youth, had carried him to
foreign service, and had raised him from the lowest to
the highest rank in his profession ; which had shone
in Portugal, in Sp,in, and in France, and made
him :a sharer in the glories of Waterloo.—(Hear,
hear.)--He (Sir J. Graham) thought him fairly en-

titled to the favour and gratitude of the House ; but when,
year by year, the House voted sums for the payment of
governorships of fortresses, Plymouth, Edinburgh Castle,
and others, to which considerable emoluments were attached,
and which, it was said, were always reserved for the reward
of military services, he thought the services of the Noble
Lord might be so rewarded, and he was certainly entitled
to such a kind of reward. Then was the situation of
Lieutenant-Generalship of the Ordnance such a species of
reward? Certainly not; on the contrary, his argument
was, that that office was of a double character, partly civil
and partly military, and that it was not indispensably ne-
cessary. The principle on which he should argue the
question was laid down in the report of the finance com-
mittee, in thee terms:—" No Government is justified in
taking the smallest sum of money from the people, unless a
case can be clearly established to show that it will be pro-
ductive of some essential advantage to them, and one that
cannot be obtained by a smaller sacrifice. The real wants
of the people shall not be made to give way to any imagi-
nary wants of the state, which arise from so many sources,
that it is frequently very difficult to prevent the operation
of an undue influence." Then was the situation of Lieu-
tenant-General of the Ordnance productive of real advan-
tage to the public service, or was it one of the imaginary
wants of the state? He (Sir J. Graham) was prepared to
argue that the office was not of essential advantage to the
public service, but one of the imaginary wants of the state.
In arguingthis question, it was impossible for him to enliven
a thrice-told tale. This battle had been fought before; he
(Sir J. Graham) had brought the subject before the House
once already. He trusted, then, that the House would bear
with him whilst he went over tl.e evidence. The House
would probably be alarmed at that portentous volume (pro-
ducing the report of the finance committee); but it was
his intention to read only a short extract or two. lie should
first refer to the evidence of the Duke of Wellington before
the finance committee. His Grace had given plain an-
swers to simple questions. The Noble Duke was asked—
" Do you consider the continuance of the Lieutenant-
General of the Ordnance as essential to the well-being
of the service ?" Answer—" Yes, I do." His Grace
went on to show the reason. " The Lieutenant-General
has some very important duties to perform. I do not
mean to say that the Master-General cannot perform them,
for be sometimes does perform those duties. In my time,
the Lieutenant-General was absent sometimes, and at other
times I was absent myself. When he was absent, I per-
formed hie duties," So far the evidence of the Duke of

Wellington established the fact, that each of these offices
was vicarious to the other. When the Master-General
was absent, the Lieutenant-General performed his duty;
and vice versa, when the Lieutenant-General was absent,
his functions were performed by the Master-General : the
duties of each were the same. The Noble Duke pro-
ceeded—" He has some duties to perform which are very
important, and it is essential to the well-being of the ser-
vice that he should perform them : the inspection of the
troops, and a great deal of duty at Woolwich, patticularly
the examination of all the men for discharges." The last
clause in his Grace's answer it was material to consider,
because circumstances had occurred since 1628 which ma-
terially varied the force of his observation. It was this—.
It is very material that there should be a military officer
constantly at the Board." He (Sir J. Graham) would
state how this office was constituted. There was a Lieu-
tenant-General, a Surveyor-General, a Clerk of the Ord-
nance, a Storekeeper, and a Clerk of Deliveries. At the
time when this evidence was given, the Lieutenant-General
was in Portugal, the Surveyor-General was a naval officer,
the Clerk was his Hon. Friend opposite, the Storekeeper
was Mr. Singleton, and in fact the only military officer
was the Clerk of the Deliveries ; whereas at present,
there were four military officers to one civilian. This
fact materially varied the evidence of the Duke of Wel-
lington, which was given at a time when there was
only one military officer in attendance. When the
Board assembled, at present, and when the Master-
General was in attendance, and the Secretary, out
of eight individuals, there were no less than six
military officers ; two of them full Generals, two Lieute-
nant-Generals, and two Colonels. It was more like a
Court-martial than a Board to consider the important sub-
jects of contracts for timbering guns, the price of pipe-
clay, and other matters which came before the Board.
The next evidence be should refer to was that of his Gal-
lant Friend (Sir H. Hardinge), at page 33; and what
was the evidence he gave? The first question was—•' Is
the office of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance titular ?"
The next question he was asked was—" Does he attend the
Board ?" The answer was—" He ought to attend the
Board, but he is at present employed in the command of
the army in Portugal." Question—How have the duties
of his department been performed in his absence ?" An-
swer—." I should say with very great inconvenience to the
public service."—(Hear, hear.)—He would request the
House to consider, in conjunction with this answer, the
statement of his Gallant Friend given in the opposite page
—"I can state when I was at the Board, and Lord
Beresford was absent, the Surveyor-General and myself
being both military men, and assisted by the Duke of Wel-
lington, did perform the duties of the Lieutenant-General,
and I do not know that positive inconvenience resulted to
the public from his absence."—(Hear, hear, from the mi-
nisterial benches.)—But he goes on—" But I must say it
was extremely inconvenient to myself and Lord Downes,
and those who performed those duties ;" thus negativing
the fact that the absence was productive of public incon-
venience, and resolving it into a source of private incon-
venience. The next question was—" Did not the Com-
mission of Military Inquiry recommend the abolition of
that office ?" This question seemed to have staggered his
Gallant and Right Hon. Friend. He answered—" They
did recommend the abolition of that office, but, I believe,
with certain qualifications, and I also believe that they did
not take the very best view of that subject." The Gallant
Officer then went on to detail the duties of the Lieutenant-
General, as stated by the Duke of Wellington, respecting
superintending the discharge of pensioners, the discipline of
the corps at Woolwich, and he states " the Lieut.-General
ought also to attend the inspection of the men at Woolwich
himself, to see that every soldier who is discharged
with a pension is fit to be discharged ; his military ex-
perience is of importance in superintending the discipline
of the military corps at Woolwich." On the point lie de-
posed to, as to the necessity of the Lieutenant-General's
superintending the discharge of the pensioners, and the
details of the corps at Woolwich, he would refer the House
to page 38 of the evidence, where his Right Hon. Friend
gave the following reply. He was asked—" Why might
not the pensioners be examined by the Chelsea Board ?"
Answer—" I see no objection to it further than the
charge for the pensioners being in the Ordnance Depart-
ment, there would be no saving by the 'transfer ; there
would be a feeling on the part of the soldiers, that their
interests were not so well attended to by strangers as by
their own officers." So far with respect to the pensioners.
Then with regard to the discipline at Woolwich. The
Committee asked-" Might not the office of Lieutenant-
General be disposed of, if that duty were transferred ?"
His Right Hon. Friend's answer was—" He has, besides,
very important duties to attend to, in taking care of the
discipline of the 7,000 artillery, and '7OO or 800 officers,
in attending reviews, and looking after the interior affairs
and details of the regiment ; in fact, he is a General
Officer commanding a division of troops." Now he (Sir
J. Graham) would beg to refer the House on this point to
another part of his Right Hon. Friend's evidence, in
pages 110 and 111. Question—" There is a sum of
1,642/. charged for a Deputy Adjutant-General and As-
sistant of Staff, two Aides-de-Camp, and so on : was not
that appointment first made in 1795, after the war had
begun?" Answer—" I cannot state accurately what was
the precise date, but the artillery requires the staff of a
Deputy Adjutant-General for 7,000 men in as great
a degree as any corps in the army would require a
similar Staff Officer ; and the artillery staff, is, as
compared with the force in men, smaller than that
of the line."' Question—" Who fills that situation
now ?" Answer—" Sir Alexander Dickson." Ques-
tion—" You consider that that is necessary now,
though in former peaces it did not exist ?" Answer—
"lt is absolutely necessary ; the routine of the rota of
duty to be taken, the military police and discipline of the
corps at Woolwich," his Gallant Friend added, with his
usual force and adroitness, " in a great degree depend upon
him, though under the orders of the Lieutenant• General
of the Ordnance." He, (Sir J. Graham) would only
trouble the House with one further passage from this evi-
dence ; it was in page 38. His Right Hon. Friend was
asked—" If the Lieutenant-General has the discipline,
what has the Master-General to do ?" Answer—" He
has the general superintendence of the whole department,
military and civil, in all its branches, and a complete con-
trout over it, so much so, that be can order and direct the
Board to do as lie pleases, except in matters of money and
account." Question—" Gadd not he give directions re-
specting the discipline of the corps, that which you con-
sider now to be the special duty of the Lieutenant. Gene-
ral?" Here he (Sir James Graham) begged to remark to
the House the statement of the Duke of Wellington, that
he actually performed the functions of the Lieutenant-
General when Lord Beresford was in Portugal. The
answer of his Gallant Friend was—" I conceive that he
might, if it is supposed that the Master-General is to be
always present." So that it was clear that tke Master-
General was competent to the performance of the duties
of the Lieutenant-General, and might perform them with-
out inconvenience to the public service. The Gallant
Officer went on—" But the Lieutenant-General has at the
Board other very important duties; all the military ques-
tions come before him, such as the estimates for military
works and fortifications; lie has the whole of the
military correspondence : for instance, if it is necessary to
erect a barrack, or a military work, and we are in com-
munication with the Commander-in-Chief, it would come
before him, he would assist the Board with his military
opinion ; we have become a much mere military department
than we were before, since the transfer of other departments,
and at present there is a much greater necessity fora Lieut.-
General than formerly." If the department has becom e much
more military, let the House observe how much more military
the board had become, consisting, as it now did, of six
military men and two civilians. The last question he
should quote was this—" If the Master-General were an
efficient officer, applying his time and attention solely or
principally to the business of the Ordnance, might be
not fulfil all those duties with respect to the discipline at
Woolwich, and the general superintendence of that de-
partment, which you have described as now falling on the
Lieutenant-General?" He (Sir J. Graham) requested the
attention of the House to the answer given by his Right
Hon. Friend to this question—" The Master-General of
the Ordnance has generally been an officer of state, and a
Cabinet Minister, giving, on questions which may arise,
his military 'opinion ; the Master-General is, as I have
before stated, in the case of the Duke of Wellington,
liable to be sent away on the public service." This had
been the case in former instances. Lord Chatham, when
Master-General, went with the expedition to Walcheren ;
Lord Cornwallis held the same office conjointly with that
of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. But at the present mo-
ment, when the Master-General was not a Cabinet Mi-
nister, and where there was no chalice of his being called
upon foreign service, all the reasons here alleged were
futile. But he (Sir J. Graham) could not help thinking
that his Right Hon. Friend contemplated a special case,
when he added, " I conceive, if Lord Beresford, experi-
enced as he is in the affairs of Portugal—' experienced !
(exclaimed the Hon. Member) as the groans of the victims
of Don Miguel can testify, pining in the dungeons of
Portugal; experienced ! as those can testify who were
forced to fly their native land'—were to be called away from
his duties at the head of the Ordnance, and sent to Portu-
gal, it would be extremely hard that he should be obliged
to relinquish that situation, merely because he was
found useful and efficient for the service of the State but
having a lieutenant, who in his absence can do his duty,
justice can be done to the department and to the indivi.