The Sun.
London, England, 1830-11-12 00:00:00

81.111-LETTING ACT (111 ELAND,)

Ittr. O'CONNELL *lse to move fur leave to hring iii a
Bill to repeal the Statute of the 7th Oro., 4, c, et), vow.
manly culled the Sub-letting Aut. He said that he bed
Wen induced to move fur the repeal of this Statute, think.
Mkt that it was Mier end more convenient to make an
origittel Act than to patch up an old one. The Sulk
letting Act was peculiar to Ireland; it had nn yam in
England ; and he coati/oiled that there %tumid he a „„,.„
made out to show why
.the law of landlord end tenant
should not be the minis in both countries. The Statute
divided itself into two objects, and therefore it might be
coneidereil as, le fact, two Statutes. The first psi t took
up all ruining contracts and lessee; the eeeuttil part re-
(erred to eutitracia and leases hereafter.to hr made, The
first, altered the stature of the coattail between landlord
and tenant, by giving a literal meaning to words which
.Ited only a legsl meaning before. And this, he maintained,
-,was unjust, because it in fitet made this part of the Statute
an ex post Acta law. it *truck out a qttalificiation which
was of advantage to the semi anti the contrary to the
landlord—which was is boon conferred upon the poor and
exauted a kindness from the tich—accotiling tolhe aucient
covenants a parole waiver was allowed, For although a
covenant *night he made that the land ebotilil nut he let
.:to wittier tenants, yet if the ninon did so sublet it, and
the ,landlord knowing this reoelved one gale's rent, the
ttoutratt theneeforth erased to be bindihlf• the
principle of the Met part, he contended it wits a violation
of eutatraet, and he trusted theta, was Ito unto in that
Muse would rite to defend it. The second part, he ad-
mitted, was purely prospective, anti therefore a legitimate
topic for legislation. li, after the passing of it, men
entered into contraets, they did so with their eyes
open, and they could sot blame the Legielstuto for
.entrapping them. This, second park, bonveer, opesnivil
universally against su6detting of the lands of Ireland,
with three excepted caire....thsf el s Ifase of Hies renew-
able for ever—of a lease for niatety,niite years or upwards;
OW thirdly, of 41Ii lands in the itteeatotion of the Church—.
which, by the way, were very extvoaive ire Ireland ; and
ltd temerlceil, thst he never tome ii Choral of any creed
or shade of &nhies that wits not eery attentive to its tem-
-1,84 and inked u by the
law, eitould n11411'4,10 between landlord gni tenant, cape.
sully vhru, Infore the passing of this Act, the landlord
eould its two forme prevent his tenant frost noder.detting.
The .tine I.c had already sileittioritil, in which a_parolo
waiver was admitted I the other was to he Inutile effectual
by a strict warthog of the coutract. " The result of this
Act, therefore, was to take away from bellied all freedom
in the only trade it a trade in laud. It
certainly did not do this in words, bat it did it in fact
for it prevented the lainilorti from distraining the under
tenant, or, in other word*, tho occupier of the land.
Thus it destroyed all freedom in the landlord, fur no man
,would consent to give up his right of distress, which was
the only mode tho landlord had of rettovering, since tho
wid,llo tenant bud no power of reeirtrOrislg holt, the occu.
vier of the land. The quCstion was, ought the Legiele.,
ture to intake to prevent the eantenee of under-
teurt,ts in Infant'? Ile thought not ; it tea,
opinion that it wing he well for landlurds to
cleur „their lands of untler.tetienti, heNitts aware
drat it a si stated page alive 1, ;yt. in the crc-
sl ttt'r, of lessens*, ;>[i l a3,t, as skit ti,;•i,t tutors it 1 watt
4fe4tVr yuaiutity sit provisions ir
upo, the l.,l4lei-
therwas he disputing the landlord's right i o t i t vitt of his
under.>tenants ; he hall a right to do 40 1 6141WtItit*
landlord, in wtinin auto vst wouht alw:3-vs s, ally t~ ids so
,
the,' lamoity,. might perloto colititios to that

right. Bet the GovernMent !shook) not compel, a land,
lord to do an. If a , toot ehoe to extermineto his pea-
sentry, he elsould tlo it in hie own, name, and not. be able
to shield himself with the etnnuutrele of Government., lie
_ was free to confess that-this was put a. Government act ;
it was introduced' in a vile party left-handed way, and be
trusted that now there would be no objection to its repeal.
In the legislation. upon this subject since the Union two
evils had been inflicted on Ireland. The firet was 14 the
Act which then for the first time enabled landlords, to dis-
train the growine crops of their tenants ; and the sewed;
that winch affieSed ao the landlord a cheap and expeditious'
mode of ejecting his tenant. These two measures he
might describe as measures by which a landlord could first
ruin his tenant, and then turd Mtn out oisesply. lie
knew that there were some persons who i► tegined. that the
Sub-letting Act was benetiaill to the poor, anti it should
be his endeavour to show these persons that they were mis-
taken. It might be said that the effect of that Act was' to
create large farms, and so the Act was passed by the I).-
!ideal normative (for it was not a mere Government
measure) to etiteloish a principle, no matter, as it.
seemed to bins, at what expellee of misery to the pair.
The consequences had already been dreadful: The
number ef pour persons who had been compelled to revolt
to the Mendieity Society of Dublin for support, was alt
great, that the Society was nearly !Mewl, and had it pot
Been for the individual kindness of the Governor of Ireland
—be meant the Duke of Nottliturtherlande--who out of his
own pocket assisted it with the Ken of 1,0001. ; and had
it not been for the equal generosity of a lady if the same
family, who should be namelees, it would have been, ere
now, completely broken up. Such generosity did both
parties the highest credit ; but he feared that the effects of
such acts as that now under discussion would be ton widely
extended to he met by such means. The object of this
Act was to create large farms ; but in wder to do that,
the people must first be got rid of—for one.efrect of this
Act was to prevent any man occupying noire land than he
enuld himself cultivate (unless he was fortunate enough
to be a tenant of Church lands), since he was not allowed
tte liberty of dividing it with another tenant.. boleti!, if
any such occupier of land (not Church land) wet to give
the labourers under hint 'a holding on the land; they might
retain possession without paying him any rent fire it. .The
consequence of these meaSnres would be, that first the te-
mint-might be ruined by a distraint on his growing cropS; '
next, that be might be turned out of possession by a eheap
' and expeditions mode of ejectment, frawcal for the benefit
of the landlord ; and lastly, when he wits in this destitute
condition, he bad no hope of again getting into pwsession
of a farm—fur a landloid would hardly be likely to se, civet
hint, -and a tenant could not, anti ought not, to he ex-
pected to make him an tinder-tenant ; subjecting himself
as be would do, to all the inconveniences imposed on such
a proceeding by the provisions of this Statute. Under
these eircumstences, he assured the Howse that, he felt,
convinced a remedy was absolutely necessary for the evils
this Act had occasioned.; and, unless that remedy wee aft
forded, he apprehended nothing less titan a 'servile war.
Ile concluded by moving for !ewe to bring its a Bill toe
repeal the Sub-letting Act.
Mr. DOHERTY availed himself of the:power of ail,'
dressing the House, afforded hint by this motion, in eider
to reply to some of the' observations of the Ilan. and
Leerried Member for Waterford. Ile: should begin wh it
retnarke he had to milt' by drawing it as his opinion, that
the circumstances in which Ireland was placed retelte et!
it necessary that there should be seine difference be teem
the law of landlord and tenant there, and
kin the lin, on th
ew
at
subject here. He agreed that, generally speag,: the l
of both countries ought to: be assiteileted as much as pee,
'tibia; hot in this instance, be. repeated, thew ought to 1,,,e
a &firmed. Ile would new tnention that so long ago as
last Session it had hems found that- tome of the provisithre
of the Sub-letting -Act. required amendment, and Lord
Levetois Cower bui.thei,stivett notico of moving for leave
tti bring in a Bill for that -purpose; lint the unexpeeted
and speedy terminatime of the :Session bad 'weventalliim
• front carrying: hie intention. into effect, lie met say,
that it was relief' herd that the Hon. . and Learned
Member shield arraign. the whole Law of Landlord
awl Tenant. framed and pawed from the days of the
Deism to 'the „present time.; and esperielly, that lie
'thauld filet fault-with :the Law Of • Ejectment, be who
was, so fowl •of cheap and ex peslitioui , law. Ilse, Pori.
mud I.:mused Member had. told them in the course:44st
Sesaien. that -he WV. 00 reason why , the min who
lived in Consherlend or Cornwell shoultl have to eon] to
fee a bit of parctuneet in melee ,to enforce hie
eight, New, applying that prinelpie to the Law of Eject.
carat, a wolthy toil Mae Baronet, whew he believed le
saw ja hie plaits lt/isei. Newport trowetll, ion...duos' a
by yvhiell:theeCossisty Ceurtchal authority to deter-
mine coos of ejectment. .That Alit might he. said to he a
linen to the jereflord,„hnt it was a tsin.te the: ternuo.
it
eves said, istrfeed. that nothing was to he got from the Irish
Secant, Yea, opyrthipy Was to be gate...his liberty; for
his person might be ooetj for,thcpe cuts which, to gra-
tify his Imo ultstlraacy,or in occordenre with the nrtfitl
.steegeteieas of g knavish attorney,. lur had baij the tcloerity
to incur.. The law which the lion, tcad Lear* Neither
lead complained of,--that by whielastanumg rpm was elude
liable to dietiCks for rent—was. en' ttoilttilaliort of the law
ni Ireland to: that of this country. !hieing. said this,
much on the general topfea of the Bon. and Learned Mien-
her's /speech, Ise would now refer to that which was
MON iermiellio,ely the rubjeet of the present distort.
akin. In the years 1824 and lttitr, two Committees. of
that Howie hea,ti instituted an inquiry into the geoaral.state
of Ireland, bat mere especially with a visw 10.444:044iii
the af, the poorer classes. All the witristet
who were evainiried hotori that Committee, attributed thg
e.sivie of the evils of the pemantry of Ireland to the einthst
infinite subdivision Of land there, That was the opinion,
a Englishmen and Irishmen, of Orangeamo end Catholics;
in short,
.of all men who, however duty sleight differ on
ether points, seemed fully agreed on that. But ettniog the
witneireel there was ono tehree testimony on tile prest4
tweation wee, perhaps, worth more then all the reed—it
was the testimony of a min who hati the means of inti.;
Mate knowledge of the condition of the Irish peasantry--..it
Was the testimony of the present Hai. mad retarned Mac-
bar fur Waterford himself.—(Hear, hear.) The
Member,- at the desire at the House, here read soup eie.
trek* from Mr; O'Connell's' evidence, in which it
•. saw
stated that he kat,' two farm. While, within his memory,
there had been but' two dreellings, bet where there were
et that time more' than 100 families; awl which cots-
eluded with the deehtration that the griever:mos of the
hash peasantry 'were much ineresseed by the dilates:lAl
etit.re4, and that their distress Watt much increased by the
outset to which subletting was carried. there being emne-
time& ou less than six or seven middle men hetween the
landlord end the real tenant.--(llear,),...other pet tame
itistdossd Ott the same subject,
_and they all agreed,
from prufeaahot.l. anti personal experienee, owl felon the
fullest eatiminstioa of the subject, diet there was at perfect
Impossibility of preventing the evils of nub-letting with-
stet a Jegielative amours, Du 4w subject. Such had teen
the opiision of all torn as to the ,dreadful nature of the
evils; weir their opiniim as-to the naecere of the remedy
to be afforded; end when he mentioned that the Bill
Was drawn by Me. Plunkett and Mr. DI ske, he doubt
that the very scones of each sewn were sulfa eat to show,
that it emit,' not have been treated with any intention but
that of teeing i,enefieiial to the peeple of,lrehuut neer,
IR:ay.:p.-4W Act was directed to peewee" 'these infinite,
eule.lettings, sod at the same time.to. provost idea .tenatit
*spinet the evils of - infinitely repeated distreseee.. Fare
mealy each of tits sob lessors woad dome Open this 00fore
dtlOste Want fpr his rent; lAtt be there were obw nova
dowse leasopse, the tenant who bed once paid Lis rent
was (ree friiat 'farther Molestation. Tbe had maither
-hounds! operieue— rti, Icy 04400% that frequena
committed by wan who preitendeti there bad been a eeeee,
*elver of the prolsibiejem to 'otufedere fee: tt,,,,,*„.e.re,
utterly prevented from midertettiog without the meow
of the latoltned, signified 'in writleg, In order to enforce
Or Act in the abe3pest awl 'the sweet manner, it was
made the ititereat of the tenant not to undesiete 'ince hie
seletersitat, admitted ittto poiesetsims eontrary to the peo-
vision of that Act, coold na romPtika to pay rent. -141
first clause to whirls he had refereed applitd 0111), tie Wises,
Ia Whigh there weteetwenanti not to eitiderlet ;' the second
Aorta eoforced the eat's/ pH's-triple with respect toleasess not
towed:dog such a covenatste end that clause was formed ors
alit, peeve last of the I Seot,l4,nili The third chaise;
wee that which .ise loehed iseen act thQ great benefit to ire.
Joui. It Was that width preveute i the peametry frotu
toting subjected to the 4;lo'alit of htfiiait,e4l;StresSC.4-1-4 Clause
Whigh;artei the, greet measure AA-AO lit pow!, NY" 414 of;
flee glegtest boleros tit itelAo,l. The eiote wan now' omet,,
where tree from Harty motives, all ;nen teieht co-operate,
tat that irstralectioe of menStirtet directed to peoriarar
to Iceland. Among those might poiusiblylin namedi
Tie. Pont Line The ,finvertiment had • been ttlamed fart
not lntving alrettely intraiswast the discussion of khan Itte3
w",t lelet Lei thoiOtt they Were eight itoproeehiag let(
Oo v tssi+lo &Why, tor it was a measeet that 'KunCe adopted
ttever etotibl our tetrwtted foot; itettirtlit4 ti c Moue.
eios eittatit4i torAt1of110:B01,000', ),101,-..ggiell to et4r it •to
toonnouyt:f retitle, whit I SO powerfully destwilresf
Abe eke!, of tell,leteeoe, -Apt ad atisiesieLest. leitentreginatitie'
witch! to piet ere itY. 1114itiii,:. Twists :
HUI_ A law patisNi to vot ion eta) tta
#..w.••
.1 it L., clieloof jilto his y asserk,
Act onr, rooll not he the ratne4if the
an▪
t's of its that ease, the -effect pre.:
ceded the geese, The atateot the lower maidens in jrelitful

was wteteted in 1825,. awl the SA-letting Act bad nt t
been posed until-1826 ; even the Bon. Member for Watt!.
ford bad been compelled to allow that the miqnyin Ire-
land W 1.13 not. OCeitsiptled, but only exaggerated by the Sub-
letting Act. In a public point of view, therefore, it be
{loved the Legislature to step in to tell those concerned, that
they were not only entailing misery on themeeFses, but in-
terfering with the 41bumliiiit produce of the soil. When, tig
wargonet's vehicle Was in the rut, he was advised to put
his own shoulder to the wheel, and be was happy to be
able to i:ay that the landlords of Ireland were now ratite!:
their oft shoulder to the wheel, anti were thereby eats
tutting their country from its difficulties: they were be-
ginning to he ashamed in these times of remaining like
fetelalllarons 'over their wretched Vassals. He (Mr. Dtt-
tet ty) hailed the Sub-letting Act'as the first step toward
the amelioration of the Condition of the Irish poor, end

_ ....
he implered: the House to foster and encourage the diver-
'aim' out of which it had ripen. lie entreated the Hon.
and Learned Member to reconsider the opinion he hail thin
night dedivered it was generally a safe rule to look at
men as well as measures, and the Hon. Member would
then see that the Sub-letting Act Wai supported by the
Meet 'respectable and venerable individual; well acquainted.
with Ireland, who would not say that it was introduced
fur the purpose of oppressing the people of Ireland. If,
On candidly reconsidering' his opinion; the Hon. and-
Learned Member arrived at a conclusion different from
that which he had promulgated, and would snake it known
to the people of Ireland, he would be a greater benefactor
to his country than he (Mr. Doherty) could ever hope to
bee.—(llear, bear.)
Mr. VILLIERS STUART was decided!), in favour of
the prineiple of the Sub letting Act, although he thought
that a medium course Might have heen advantageously put
sued, and among other things, an exception made of lands
in the immediate vicinity of large towns. Ile agreed with
the Hon. 'and Learned Member for Waterfoid, that it was
letter that the landlord should puffer from the old law
than that the tenant should be injured the ex post filet()
nature of the new law. In principle the Subletting Aet
was equitable both to landlord and tenant, and although
in practice it had been carried too far, yet there was little
ground for the clamour raised against it. To repeal the
law at the present moment would be to undo all that had
been done, and to bring b ick the pcor man to his former
state of ;Meet), and dependence.' The Sub-letting Act
was the lenillotirs security against fraud, and the tenant's
Charter against injustice and extortion.
COlonel DERESPORD vindicated the Sub-letting Act
from the charges that had been brought against it, and
contended that it only gave to the landlord what he had a
just right to Odin, while its tendency, at the same time,
decidedly was to ameliorate the condition of the tenant.
The prevailing misery hail been occasioned by the middle
trien, and the blame had been thrown upon the landlurd.
Having said thus Much, be begged to be allowed to refer
to a speech delivered by the Holt. Member for Waterford,
out of the House, in winch a most tiniest attack had been
made upon a Nimble relation—Lord Beresford.
Mr. O'CONNELL interposed, and sail that if the lion.
Member would allow hint to wait upon him nut of the
House, if len did not satisfy him (Colonel Beresford) that
what he alleded to was correct, be (Mr. O'Connell) would
not only consent that it should be again mentioned in the
House, but would ber most willing to retract what he had
advanced.
Colonel BERESFORD was understood to decline tide
propose', and proceeded to notice a speech, according to
the newspapere, delivered by:the Hon. Member for Water-
ford at Dunshaughlin, 'in which an attack was made upon
the manner in which Lord Ileresford hail treated the'
tenants on his estate. Ile spoke only of what lie saw in
the newspaper, in which the speech of the Hen. 'Gentle.
man tnigist or might not have been correctly reported. It
charged the agent of Lord Bereeford at Carlow, with
bunting the poor people out of their tenement; and con.
Verting the billings intia pastures for four-footed animals.
He (Colonel I3,reiford) denied the charge ; Lord Beretiford
hail let j:is estate in farms generally of from forty to sixty
acre?', out only being of 120 aerie; If the lion. and
Learned Gentlemen would inform him (Colonel Beres-
fi it where he had obtained his information, he Hbould be
glad to avoid discourteous expressinne, to Which he ware at
all times averse; but it was very hard that a landlord
should thus he most unfairly held up to public odium. Dr.
Doyltecoulil bear ample testimony to the Uniform kindness
with which Load Beresford treated his tenantry. Not a
single tenant, was about to quit his estate who was not two
years in arrear, and Who had never been pressed for his
lit. Ile voted against the !linden, because he was con-
viered, that the &Wetting Act wax advantageous both to
landlord end tenant.
Mr. A. DAWSON argued, that evils intended to be 're-
moved by the Sub-!etting Act could be much better re.
omelet' by the vigilance of time landlords. lie wished to
know whether it was not a breach of all principle to pass
a law interfering With contrueta between landlanl and
tenant, unless a case ofgreat public utility could be shown ?
No such case liad been made out : and it was indimput.
Blatt the lees the Legislature interfered in matters of
the kind, the lens inconvenience would arise. He Con-
tended, that the misery of families upon an (attar had no
necessary ci minection with the Nub-letting of land, and the
ancient principle of the law Was, diet restrictions upon
lease* ought to he looked at jealously and combated
strictly whenever the Legislature departed from that
prineiple it and the extent of that mischief
could not, be ascertained. A man baring several chil-
dren is prevente I by the Sub-letting Act front making
that just and natural division of his land whiath family
purposes would require. He felt that great injustice was
done by the interference of that Act with family arrange-
ment*, It wits a glaring violation of principle to enact
, each a law fur Ireland, at the same time that England
was protected frees its operation, Nor could there be
a greater *ration to any law respecting either country
than that to which the Suh-letting Act was, in his opinion,
jiahle—.namely, that its effeet is to dissimilate Ireland and
Eagianl, not to assimilate them. It ale to the number
of Irregularities which serve to distinguish and to disso-
ciate time twa eountrice,—(llear, hear.) One of its re-
sults
.must be, that time population, driven by it out of Ire-
land, will swarm Into England, Aid aggravate the di*•
tresses of the labourers. here. They will not stop in Ire-
land to perids on the cerninons.—(Hear,) He objected,
fiowaver, to time principle more than to the policy vf the
Act. fle wWse4 the two 'countries to go on together, go-
seemed by the woe lava, and enjnying the same
bons. If the House dr:mired to not an end to the naiserim s
of Ireland, that object could not he attained by time conti-
goance of the &Wetting Act, which pushes into excessive
activity the mischevious policy of throWing many small
foam into raw large one. The p,aossor of a rood of
ground cannot be t 4, aerable; but the effect of that Act
it to remove the enuntoy pill further from that lmal1)
condition in which the Poet desuribea it to have been wlte

~ Every road of ground maltitainitini man."
The SOLICITOII-GENI?.RAI. was desirous to main.
tali. 44 principle tvliieh was so valoody advocated by
the Hon, tier4lrmaii opposite. He wished the laws oldie
two countries to Ls ,tai gweli as possible assimilated. In all
tint laws which lie bad intrndqcgdihe had constantly kept
that important object in view, in the flontempt Act,
which he bid introduced 13st Session, and thu consNeru.
ti040;..1.' which AC as alien postponed, he intended to provide
for the 1,1;.•,' of Jn.or prisoners in Irel intl. lie could not
doubt dig the ifmo Member for Watert rd was now
satisfied that every M'eralia pf dist House was disposed to
give to the it,tt2rt .1:14 Of Ireland it* 441E4 nipple attention.
T.yer,y Alvii,lfrr of that 'louse, whether It' he 'to there
from fint34tid
~-,; from Ireland, must consider hinvielf the 1
rtei.r,s, otitCov o,:" 1,,,,ri.!:, ---('for.) With ' respect to the
Jaw in que,ti,),:, it 3 11..',',t.,,f. Atr,apti on two things i first,
the general principle ; code .80.!Qt1•11y.11r,e partiitultir pro.
~i,i,,,,,. viii Ow 11. in. Iktiqui,.t, for Viatttinrii had, nil:
1-4140.61 hiuoielf to eie pill tictitte provii:kos of that iirt, 1
tosvo .14, ktvoit o,,it it never was the, intention of Mini.terit '
to ,patiooe4R ima4l.,riotAin their present suite; but to
Soften them Cl'a'n ixt t.k0:;.e.re,,,,11.1:ts hi wide% Oleic opera.
two. 11l .t rovo to be,o) Morph i er.,1.1 to adopt them in
dials kxigenti,n %Tilieli along vuultl juitifiitlip coin:m..lmile
virtunl. a law. ifit considered the Goverittne4t attiliether
mektn4b).9 for the effect of that enothatanee. SliPuid it b'e'
proved tlik..t 4,ta 1 i v of (-rates injuriously, Le onnikkretl.
the Goveromeut ki,eosti,..ablp ;Or any mischiefs that it
might produce. Tke, titiii. ,q,?.i.c.,!.. opposite bad said,
that Within hilt a gre3t public Pitiii,cin'.o aotilil justify
ally into.thrtnee of the. I.egistature in (ltg litrii.ogvl,ot4
between latitior;) anti tenant,
lie prineiple,wiul on twit alone, hc (the.Solicitor..oeneral)
would vomit for word ti dillifiVC 6416 a measule. lie was
sueii,tliat the Hon. Gentleman (the ;,;.ember fir Water-
ford) tropld, AO towline to himself the credit of having u
deeper interest in Pla ,welfaieofitis country than trio iiiaiq
.distinguished qnd berltivoian,l; prop!. tetra:4 in Ireland *lio
support of the law in tjueition.
,I. or :.,o,'.syn part he (Elie
SolicirorWeueral) hurt neat pleitsut e in hayi4 4.l;it fill.fit
batiAltlumbetiii ut)ich tii,liereneetvAtvi.eptillibelf asidlii4
UOO. GgfitleAlisl, retpt.ctillg pti, measures which Ic bail
sown toll 64* 14# 1464 lkii tom la of a i7a..3.,e in thit 'Joule.
Ile wa4,41e14,r4ie to treat Ittin,( Mr. .0' c u,i,vleilf ty4li call
pomiblo Atimr:43.), in every di.eto.;un in i Wei)) tl.,:!y iipiOt
cogata, and he felt ',unified, from the 'temper which Nits
that evritist4ittp triunif,ated on all sides, that as there wai
mi need, and there at. 4.0 Pe I;o ildrti fie ition, for pt i soiwii.
tits in their tlehatet, they Arl;:::,;,i, iplver, in future IA! 113.
5.a,.t,,,pj 1,,,,,*,(11, a r. ) —lie (the trtol(rito.--f;,,,tiet 31) role
have tritogetlpr toiwittillutomi ti, law, if it cUtliii ii:tiC 1,,1
cry *1 the I.tf,'“ Whigh the' lion. (ietttleinan opposite

(Mr. O'Connell) hail attributed to it on former occiasions
He assigned to the operation of that law all the evils of
Ireland. Now he (the Solicitor-General) would say de-
liberately, and without ti'ur of Contradiction, that there i,
not one word in that law upon which ouch an effec
can he charged. • The law caning pet any min out 0'
possession who was legally in possession at the time of
the passing
.of that law. How, then, could it be as.
serted that hundred* and thousands of- poor tenants hurl
been ejected from their Jands by means Of that Ad'
No man could be ejected under it front a possession t,,
which he had a kJ right before, that law .was enacted.
The Hon. Member who last teldresaed the House lac
asked, where the dieposeesatd peasantry of Ireland shied
go? But he (the Solicitor-General) thought that wars a
question fur the consideration of the Hon. Gentleman him
-elf, and of other proprietors of land in Ireland. Att to
the evils which are said to have proceeded from the Sub
letting Act, he bad never heard any thing more incorrect
stated in that House than (and be would say it with all
respect) what the Hon. 'amber for Waterford (Mr
O'Connell) had asserted respecting them., The Hun. and
Learned Gentleman had described the first clause of the
Act as an ex post facto law. But be (the S dicitor-
General) would pledge his reputation us a lawyer, that it
was by no means so. It was only prospective. No waiver
existing at the time of the passing of that law reinainee
unaffected by it. No such construction as that put upon
the clause by the Hon. Gentleman could be maintained.
The clause does not affect a right existing in the tenant
before its enactment. Such was clearly the intention of
the framer* of that Act. If the words do not express
that meaning, it would be matter for their consideration
how that ambiguity was to be removed. " If the words
were capable of the construction to which the Hon. Gen•
tleman had ingeniously attempted to strain them, it would
be a great hardship to the poor tenants in Ireland. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had complained that an un-
due power aver the tenant wa given to the landlord by
the provision, that unless the right to sublet be expressly
conditioned for in the lease, a covenant for the oontrire is
preaumed, and the tenant subletting, without a written
provision to do so from his landlord, would render himself
liable to ejectment. But the only consequence of that
provision was, to put the tenant the more upon his
guard ; and if he were desirous to have liberty to
sublet, he must take care to have a covenant to
that effect. The Honourable and Leirnel Member (Mr.
O'Connell) further complained, that while the Legislature
affected to give the tenant an assurance that his landlord
had the power to consent to the alienation of the tenure, it
really left to the landlord no such power; for the Act
deprived the landlord of his tight to (tigrish) after, such
consent to the ulienatinn. Now, the Act positively con-
fer'', in the provision of which the Hon. Gentleman had
complained, ,a boon upon the people of Ireland--a boon
which is not enjoyed, but which ought to be enjoyed by
the people of England. That is a fact which ought to be
known to all the people of both countries. The clause
complained of provider expressly, that if the poor tenant
pay his relit to his immediate landlord, he is protected
front the superior landlord, who, in such a case, cannot
distrain the tenant in possession for rent due by the mid-
dleman. By that enactment the poor Irish tenants actu-
ally in possession were protected front the vexations and
oppressions to which they befioe were liable from the
neglect or tyranny of the numerous middlemen' who stood
between the occupier and the proprietor. He (the.
Solicitor. Gener.,l) was at a loss to conceive how Mr.
O'Connell could reconcile some of his objections to the
Subletting Act with the desire which he bad so often ex-
peened to establish local Courts, and to give the people
law at their own doors and without expense. the ltad.
said that it had formerly cost 171. 3s. 6.1. to eject a tenant
who ought to be put out without any cost to the landlord
Now the present law enabled the landlord to put nut such
a tenant at no greater cost than 1/. is lid. Bat if, as the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had stated, it was formerly
in the power of the tenant to put the ejecting landlord to
an expense of upwards of seven thousand pounds, the pro-
tection of the tenant was complete. The Learned Gen-
tleman said, that he would not use the jargon of the law,
and that the language of the law should be such as to he
intellitible to every man. But in avoiding the use of souse
law term, the Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'C.) had occu-
pied ten minutes by the cluck in explaining to the House,
what one word would have expressed, from which it was
manifest that law is a science, in which technical terms
are necessary for the purpose of conveyit.g by a single
word, to the mind of done acquainted with the science, a
meaning which would otherwise require ten minutes to
explain. Ile (the Solicitor.Generai) could not understand
why Mr. O'Connell, who so snuck lit sired to place cheap
law, within the reach of every man in England, was op-
posed to the giving of the same advantage to the people of
Ireland. lie (the Solicitor-General) would not sacrifice
the rights of the Irish landlord to the tenant, nor those of
the tenant to the landlord ; hut he was desirous to give
equal laws to both, and to let the people of both Englund
and Ireland know that the laws place them on equal terms
with their landlords.

Mr. JAMES GRATTAN gave the Right Hon. Gen.
tleman (the Solicitor-General). full credit fur his desire to
amend the Act in question, so at to adapt it to the eiremu,
stances of the Irish people; but he would ask the Learned
Solicitor, why did he now, instead of bringing forward
the desired amendments, extol the provisions of the Act as
couferring a boon upon tt:e tenantry of Ireland ? He
could not help thinking, that if the Right Hon. Gentle-
tleman had been desirous to amend the Act, he would have
dune so some. time within the last thief or four years.
Therefore, if the House came to a division on the motion
then before it—which, however, he deprecated—he (Mr.
Grattan) must vote with the Honourable Member for
Waterford. He had , been told by Mr. Chaloner, the
agent of Earl Fazatilliam (and, in mentioning that No-
bleman's name, l►e must say, that from his (Earl Fitxwil-
liam'e) estates, there had not been even two tenants ejected
under the Act), that there was a great difficulty in at..
tempting to act upon the provisions of that law, because it
brings the feelings of the landlords into opposition with
their interests. The middle-m In being compelled to ex.
pel his under-tenants, is deprived of a power which he
had possessed for two Centuries.. Should the time ever
come—and he (Mr. Grattan) hoped that it never would
—when they (the I indlords) could have five pound a
barrel fur titer corn, then they would also have the
system of small farms notwithstanding the endeavours
of the landlords since INS and 1821., to " clear their.
estates," as it was called ; that is, to throw many
farms into one large one, and get rid of the small
farmers on their lands Now, wl►en that principle was
already too touch in operation, it was most injudicious of
the Legislature to give it increased activity, by enacting
this law (the Sub-letting Aet) in 182 ti. The effect had•
been to send vast numbers out of the country, betides inun-
dating the towns In Ireland with large masses of destitute
beings, who greatly aggravate the misery already existing
in those towns. As he (Mr. G ) theupht that the Go-
vernment could, if they desired, have found the means to
remedy those evils in the four years that the Bill has► been
in operation, he must vote with the Learned Member for
Waterford, if the House came to a division.

Lord F. L. GOWER tvas &boos to remedy any in.
conveniences which might be ore:sinned by home pro,
tricjona of the Sub-letting Act; and it had West hie o'.ject
to do en, by Pe Bill which he brought before the Iloute in
the hurt Session of Parliament, end of which the progress
war interrupted by the peculiar eireutnetatiees of that Ses-
sion. If the }louse should not take the same view as the
Member for Waterford took with respect to the principle
of the Bill, it would not le. neerceary fur him (Lord F. L.
Oower) to gp into its details. But there were come pro-
visions of the bill, which bad been that eveuing alluded
to, Bust in his opinion did require amendment. Tie pre.
sent Scetutary of State (Or irehnni . would brine forward
such amendments. There was an evil attaching to the
Act, for .4/14elt neitlitir that House nor the Goyernment
could be cor.sidered revue:lll9. was this, that the law
was made fifty,y,ats too late. The Iniehrinite of tol twig•
delayed temetlies wee, that they becementoru necessary and
lees eflieaviouq.

Sir 11. lIMIDINGE nui.t, that it was his intention to
up Act on the theme principle, and with the same
objects no' It It itis,rgth:qed in the last Aegiiuu by the Noble
Lord (Lord F. 1...-annihr): if tliarc tumult{ he 'any dif-
ference it would be in this—that the' Xet 1;0 joNdueed
Its lihn (Sir H. Ilartlinge)' would extend to the 'lrislt`
nantry un art of justice, which lie would explain. As
th4,,ist,/ now stood; if there %vete no provision in the least,
ei'vidgttbifolg,ut pcpresaly the liberty to sublet, nor either
"ft covenant to 'tiff/4,IMA Ono ha shall not sulilety lie is sup-
posed to violate the LiAV It he do 4nktit.t t, i, helotc, written
pertnimiion from lulu landitud. Now, It t outi Ijo for the
otnlitoilantuatii4dneibrritjtibioittliuousfi:ntthle;fil:)tir:etmuatuthlitittmte:l,:i•ii:lll,enntittuhred itiwroitwpoeuet:tinatilyll,
whether that provision be
more intelligent than ttie ionises, be responsible r
the conditions of the lour. If tip not wish to a;low
hits N 4,44 !,) subb t he ought to look to his own
antlicxprrilly set i',:tth ;n the tease, that tht tenalit
stilted froinintbletting.: tie 41174 With the lion. t,lein-
J,ep Ent Wicktow th at it, is desietible` t$ tittul amploymoll
pie ioiftino train their tenures nutter the-Provi•
shthig3ttf that t, they should tact bring
tooloo tout;,,, 'it WM. pestpoit;le tll,irwitett
the 11011, Gentleman f+praiite itiolog .4.4{101
In log In his telatiog to the poor of het anal, the Ifouse
would he able ti devise stone edeetnial means foi the cm-
to , the poor, in public
)1 9 works, or other Wise.

With great forte; and, he must be allowed to say, with some
intemperance, the Honourable. and Learned Member had
in other places attributed all -the miseries of Ireland to the
Sub-letting Act ; but he felt much pleasure in observing
that, the lion. Member did not on the present occasion
dwell upon tholes topic so emphatically as usual, neither
did the lion. Member for Wicklow lay so much stress
upon them. There was no one who paid the slightest
attention to the situation of Ireland or took the trouble
to make himself acquained with the Act, who would
not be ready to admit that the principle of it was cal-
culated to be highly useful to Ireland. The Great diffi-
culty to which the operation of the Act gave rise was to
• devise means for disposing of the ejected population ;
however, much of that difficulty was hourly disappearing, •
for the state of Ireland was now, happily, one of progres-
sive improvement. Ireland was, et the present moment,
advancing rapidly. in the scale of civilization. Its internal
trade was improving : it was deriving great advantage
from steam navigation ; there was a, greater consumption
of wheaten bread than formerly; crime was. diminishing;
and though there existed, no doubt, in many parts of the
country, touch suffering and misery, he would affirm that
Ireland was advancing more rapidly in the scale of civili-
zation, as Scotland and England did at former periods.
He was far front saying that the measure did net admit
of some modification ; on the contrary, he himself was
prepared to lay before the House a Bill for the purpose
of altering and amending it; and to-morrow lie intended
to move for leiveto bring it in, and he trusted that his
Bill would obviate many of the objections to the principle
of the measure generally.
Mr. WYSE said, as the representative of an agricultural
county, he felt called on not to sit silent on en occasion.
such as the present. It was admitted on all bends, that
the Act, as it stood, should not be allowed to continue in
force, at least without some modification ; but as a friend
to simplicity iu legielte ion, be should certainly support the
motion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford,
and attain any useful object of legielution which was sought
by enactment of a new law, rather than by any alteratb.n
or amendment of the existing Statute. He co:Seabed be
could not bring hi+ mind to agree with the Hon. and
Learned Solicitor-General, that the Bill was so inepe-
dative as be imagined it to be. There was not nue who
for a moment turned his attention to the state of Ireland
'could thiulit that many of the evils which afflicted that
country were to be traced to the subdivision of land ; hut
there were no means of preventing that evil, unless, in-
deed, it were proposed to expel the population. Though
strenuously opposed to the,Stetute in question, lie could
by nu means agree with those who represented it as having
been brought in for the purpose of arming one part of the
people against 4 nattier. He was sure the Legislature had
a greater and wider object in view ; namely to check the
superabundant population. When he spoke of the poit.:
lation as being superabundant, he begged to be anderstocd
as considering it only relatively so—as only superabundant
in relation to its means ; and when he spoke of the means
possessed by Ireland, he only spoke of the
,means already
developed as being Inadequate to the support of the existing
population. Ireland abounded in natural resources--in har-
bours, rivers, and soil, that country was not excelled by any
•
in the world, yet they were allowed to remain comparatively
idle, for want of means to call their dorniant wealth into
activity. Opposed though lie was to the original stitute,
he desired not to be understood as declaring, in the ab-
stract, either for large or mall farina. The excellence of
every system depended upon the circumstances under
which it existed ; small farms were often found to be most
beneficial to the people, if the tenure by which they'were
held were free from the taint of uncertainty. Again, he
was Hot so 'heckled an enemy of Middlemen—at least in
their original capacity—as some had tleclared themselves.
Ireland was at one time in such astute as to demand the
intervention tif that clubs ; when those who formed the
class of absentees retired front Irelaed, middlemen were
indispensable to the preservation of their properties. Mid-
dlemen, at that time, formed, the only link .between the
two orders of society—he might add, the only link between
the two countries. The effects produced in Ireland on the
relations between landlord and tenant were in many re-
spects similar to those which Fletcher of Saltoun described
as belonging to Scotland, and which in the days of Eliza-
beth were found to prevail in England, tool since then in
Bavaria and Westphalia. Mute!' h id been said ou the seb-
ject of emigration in connection with this matter ; lie
must be allowed. to say, that that was a measure which
ought to be dealt with delicately, for there was danger
that if too freely encouraged it might lead to a loss of
strength, sinews, intelligence, 'keying nothing behind but
the dregs and the lee,. There wait much to be reformed
in. Ireland—had institutions were to be annihilated or re-
modelled—monopolies were to be re-modelled, its well
those of Grand Juries, as of Cairporatitine—efficient
meant adopted for securing employment to the people of
Ireland..--( Cheers.)
Sir JOHN BURKE urged, amongst other objections
to the Sub-letting Act, that it opLrated as a discourage-
*neat to the improvement of waste land. .For examp'e,
die improvement of bog was best effected by the sub-let.
ting of the land by tenants to totters. He would not sty
that many tenants did not, let in full confidence in'the Ito-
nour of their landlords...wit confidence which seldom was
misplaced—but no tenant could rely upon those who might
be the successors ot' their laildlorils ; anti fur these
reasons, as well as °there insisted on by other Him. 'Mem-
bers, he had no difficulty in pronouncing the kesent Act
highly injurious to Ireland.
Lord BOYLE, 'hough no friend io the SUb-letting Art,
would vote against the motion of the Hon. anti Learned
Member fur Waterford, for lie expected that' suite mea-
sure would be introduced by the Bight Hon. Gentleman
opposite, to place the law upon an improved footing' with
reference to this particular subject, which certainly needed
the interposition of Parliament.
Mr. ItUTHVEN was glad that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Sectetary for Ireland, intended to bring in a
Ili•I upon the eui.ject. One of the great difficulties atterid.:
lint upon the operetion of the Sub-letting Act was this—
that an immense number of human beings were driven
from house and home at a tune when no facilities were
afforded to those who were disposed to emigrate. The
Colonial Governments were not prepared to receive them,
and the means of the poor people were expended before
they could procure any allotments of land, or proceed to
their destination.
After a few words frogs Mr. O'Burzsr, which were not
andilde in the G illery,
eaPirratol‘tilield:tgii°rsa:itCtilf:Nt the
abundant.tNenElt ci;vitieLoptil rehtoue:aoerffionklri eglroarennpa dti
iy,titte4ohtel part ornlftgat: nialebysat l
if,
'race
desire to arrive at the truth, and an earnest wish on the
part of lion. Members to enfoice their opinions could afford
gratification, there was, in like manner, ebenklant ground
receive gratification ; too, a declaration of good will to-
fur such gratifieation—ao far the people of Ireland might
wards that country might give them pleasure, they could,
from the present discussion, derive that sort of satisfac-
tion—but nothing beyond that. From the powerful speech
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleinan, the SulicitoreGeneral
for Ireland, as well all from ether circumstances, to which
he would not more particularly allude, Ile expected that in
the motion which , lie felt it his duty to press, be
should find 'down' in u minority ; but be could assure
the [louse that such a vote would produce .an. exceed
in& unfavourable t NM upon the minds of the people
of Ireland, The repeal which its proposed was railed
for by the unit. d voice of the people of Ireland ; it
was called for by the
_whole Piess of that country, as
well the portion
.of the Press Which supported his views-
of Irish policy as those by whom he was opposed.
The parallel attempted to lie drawn between Scotland and
Ireland did not, in his opinion, apply the land 'in Scot-
laud descenthal through a long line of =gent hereditary
proprietors, while those in Ireland were held by tenures,
which lie should be the last nisim in the world to impeach,
hut which intlispotablyha.l their origin, for the moat part,
in forfeiture sod confiscapon, and which were new held
••
l.y
popotts, the greater portion of whnin were absentees.lle :wed not suggest, tq the !loose that eireunistences such
as these coultinot fail to be productive of a pate of po•
pular feeling which removed Scotland and Ireland to a
wide distance front each other. The It ish had, that night
been spoken of as eating wheaten bread, and yet in a state
of starvation ; as wearing good clothes, yat in a condition
pi ablest distress; and the Bight lion. Secretary for Ire-
land was piietared to oKepte 'be motlor. which
0.C.) bad needy; and that Iliet Hun. Clentle.orin prai•e.t
the Act most Warmly, and yet before. set of Still io-inorrow,
at lost very soon after sun set, he intended to move a
modification of it. He concluded by olijoning to the ex-
istijig On the ground that it went to alter existing con-
train; rmi a manner mitre favotirel4 to the landlord that,
the tenant—that it Witt not allow` landlord mid tenant to
deui as they pleased—that it 'aggravated the existing eVi'e
of Ireland by driving the people into the loves, and that
no justification of it was sought except upon pound.
uthhtin reett4 e;,ogtAlter upon imaginary schemes of tot i-
gration.
The House then divided-.
,l qr the pill
Mr. 614AAN1117:Mit'oy3etilt7Y.I.eaite::;:::::I:*4:2"--i5':111a13: Ilill foi
lifern.tivhaoblit.tintgalcireltit,,t ~,pptiitouity of statini;
heritt;l'li:thrio:rin-i°of:o"o67itlel:lVltutont4Lrefloairsw'reitiettliio;:atinrtpull:nts,tnniouenlailsenvog:(ll;l:
abi:idt; I:eairedf:-ratli7ietd
subject for two reason:.-.the one was, that ate was al, aid

the fide he should neeessuriiy have to state would be the
ulcers of increasing that irritation which already existed;
and the other was, that he had hopes that the Government
would, at the eat liest fitting opportunity, introduce a mea-
sure of its own.

Leave was then given.
IRELAND.

Me. RICE moved the renewal of the Committee that
had been appointed last year, but which, owing to the
termination of the Session, had left its labours] incomplete.
The Hon. Gentleman. moved the appointment of ta,Solect
Committee to take into consideration the state of the poorer
classes of Ireland, and the best means of -improving their
condition ; and report thereon to the House.
Mr. GRATTAN opposed the appointment of the Com-
mittee. The one that had ken appointed last year had
extsmined every thing but the subject before tltem. Out
of a Report of 57 pages, there were only 16' hoes and a
half referring to the sabject. It put him in mind of the
strolling players who enacted the play of Hatokl, omitting
the character of Hamlet. As soon as the Committee was
appointed, the answer to any attempt at agitating the
question in the House, would be that they must writ for
the Report of the Committee. In his opinion, it was idle to have
any Committee, for the evidence given before them was eternally
the came.. He should, therefore, move an amendment, that the
state and condition of the poorer orders of Ireland were sußi-
ciently known by the evidence already given betbre Committcev.
of the House, to enable the House to legislate on the subject; and
that it was'expedient that some legislative measure should be
adopted for the relief of Ireland.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said that the whole system was
one of bad legislation ; and, in his opinion, the Government
ought to take up the subject, instead of allowing Committees to
be appointed. It was also essentially necessary that the Govern.
ment of the two countries should be assimilated.
Mr. BROWNLOW said that when the Subletting Act had
been under discussion, it had been urged that a number of
miserable creatures Would be scattered on the surfaceof the land,
without any one knowing what was to become of them. It was
for the purpose of solving that very question that his Hon.
Friend (Dlr. Rice) had moved for the present Committee ; and
be (Mr. Brownlow) was, therefore, much surprised at his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Grattan) moving an Amendment in opposition to
the Committee. _ .

--Mr. Y. said, I beg leave very briefly to press
upon the attention of this House the justice and expediency of
some legislative enactment in fayour of the aged and infirm in
Ireland. It is a subject of just complaint in the City of
Carlisle, and in the county with which I am connected,
Cumberland, .that.the maintenance of the Irish poor, which
ought to be borne by the great Irish landowners and occupiers
of the soil falls upon the middle classes of this country,
who are struggling hard to maintain their independance—that
the labouring classes by a disastrous competition are now in a
state rather of Russian serfs than that of English husbandmen.
Sir, I feel I am advocating a measure which self-interest assay
for a time oppose, but which equity to this country, and huma-
nity towards a muttering peasantry, must urge upon the Legisla-
ture of this country, and that It is the only tax upon absentees
which can be imposed compatible with the nature of free insti-
tutions. _

Mr, O'BRIEN denied that the Committee last year was a fair
representation of those who were desirous of establishing Poor
Laws in Ireland. The names of the Hon. Member for Wicklow
(Mr. Grattan) and of the Hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Sadler)
had been excluded ; and he would, therefore, suggest that the
names ofthose Gentlemen and of the Hon. Member tbr Banbury
should be added to the Committee.

VERI4ON SMITH defended the course that had been
taken by the Committee. He had gone into it with a prejudice
in favour of the Poor Laws in. Ireland, but he must confess that
that prejudice was not now so forcible in his mind, for amongst
all the numerous witnesses examined by the Committee, there
were none that had a feasible plan for that purpose to suggest.
Mr. RICE replied. He contended that every sort of question,
both for and against the Poor Laws, had been put to the wit.
noses before the Committee, and the names of the Committee
were sufficient to show that there could be no intention on his
part to pack a Committee. He had the satisfaction to know
that the report of that Committee had received general appro.
bation.

After a few worth from Mr. GaarrsN, the Amendment was
negatived without a division, the original Motion was agreed to,
and a Committee wai appointed, the name of Mr. O'Connell
being comprehended in the list.
Mr. O'CONNELL begged to be excused from serving; con-
ceiving that there was already a fund in Ireland, from which the
poor ought to be relieved.
ORDNANCE.

Mr. Alderman WAlTlllifiisi,--tititKrstanding that there was
no objection to his motion, would not preface it with a single
word, but would simply move that there be laid before the
House an account of the daily employment of the Ebenezer,
IVellington, and other Ordnance transports, from the 12th of
July to the lOth of August; and also that an humble Address
be presented to his Majesty, praying that he woukl be graciously
pleased to order that there be laid before the House the record
of the conviction of Edward Williams, at Canterbury, for
smuggling, and of his sentence for five years' service on board
the Prince Relent, and whether any remission of that sentence
took, place.
Mr. HUME condemned the manner in which the public
money was wasted .in the employment of such vessels as those
to which the motion of the Hon. Alderman referred. Their
only object was to support the corniption of Queenborough, and
to contribute to the bringing Intel the House of two Members
who were not elected by fair sulti•ages. He recommended to
the Hon. Alderman, if he wished to attain his object, to add to
his motion the words " or any other vessels."
Sir H. 11AltDINGE referred to the Report of the Corn.
mitts* of 1818, to show that the necessity for the employment
of those vessels had been distinctly proved.
An How. Menne& whose name we were unable to ascertain,
observed that there was no objection to the Motion.
After a few words (ruin Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN, the
Motion was then agreed to.
The Settlement of the Poor 11111 teas read a second time, and
ordered to be committed on Wednesday.
Mr. SLANEY brought in a 11111 for better rating tenements
under a certain annual value.—Read a first time, and ordered to
be read a second time on Monday se'nuight, and to be printed.