The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-15 00:00:00

STANFORD PETITION.

Mr. MATIERLY wished his ilon.l?eiend (Mr. Ten-
nyson), who hid given notice of his intention to pre.
sent a petition complaining of the undue interference
of the Marquis of Exeter, in returning Members for that
borough, would, on account of public business, postpone
it till after the holidays. lie more particularly wished
this, as it was probable an arrangement might be effected
between the. Noble Lord and his tenants, to whun2 he had
given notice of discharge.
Mr. TENNYSON said that the petition was of such
great importance that he felt great difficulty in consenting
to its postponement, As, however, it appeared probable
that the Noble Marquis would withdraw his notices of die-
chatge, out of courtesy to him and the Hun. Member
for Abingdon, he would consent to postpone its presentation
till after the recess.

General GASGOIGNE complained that there should
he so twit conversation on presenting petitions, public
business could never he got through.
Sir J. Gaatram, and another Member, took the oaths
and their seats.

The Sheriffs of London presented a petition froth the
I.ord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City
Of London, praying fur a repeal of the duty on Ceals...—
The prayer of the petition was supported by Aldermen
WOOll, 'W4lthinan, and Thompson, Mr. Ward, Mr.
Briscoe, - Sir R. Wilson, Mr. name, Mr. Nobhouse,
Mr. Warburton, Mr. Prankland Lewis, Sit- R. Ferguson,
Mr. Caicraft, and Sir M. W. Ridley.
It was afterwards, on the motion of Mr. Alden:nth
Wool), ordered to be printed.
Lord KILLEEN presented several petitions from the
trades in Dublin, praying for a repeal of the'unios.
Petitions 4041 the Track Iletetn were presented front
Stourbridge by Colonel LYQON ; from Dudley and Wigau
by Mr. PArtitlqj from East Leigh by Mr. CAMPBELL :

S

=J

I
from two planes in Denbigh by Mr. ]Flax*; (reit?
Tydvil, avid from Dudley, by Mr. Alderman W.ltt •
CORPORATION FUNDS.
Mr. EVANS gave notice that ou the 17th of IVISFY
he should bring in a Bill for the purpose,sflitelliteir
the appropriation of Corporation Pundit towards figfeltdlf
the expenses of elections of Members of Perfiturfeeo 11'
Mr. LEADER presented a petitien,frotA Jowl
complaining of the monopoly exercised, by th, WO:
in cauaiug Members to be returned for ;bat bermigiloit
Mr. O'Courrxt.t. supported the prayer of tbapetidge.
Mr. O'CONNELL paid a question bad been 40
another place respecting the retirement of the Lo riSt
Baron of the Exchequer, • the answer' to, that WS
was to him any thing but satisfactory. Theo pri
Chief Baron had attained a very advanced elfesna,
age was a fault, but it certainly was a very great OP
tone, and he thought that House ought not te be sae
atitions in its revereneefor the juridical offiFeol4l
we that age rendered the party incapable ofriperfstey
functions. If the question he was about talsik
answered satisfactorily, he should move ac humble[
to hi. Majesty on the subject. He wished tikllo'
thee Sir W. Alexander, the present Chief Batt
about to resign.
I.erd ALTHORP—Ido not know that theCitit
is about to resign; but I may say I believe be ill
Messengers from the Lords brought downseyert
Bills.
Mr. LITTLETON presented three petition
the Truck System,—two from districts -1a the
Stafford, and one from Nottiagbatn. The
Hon
then said, that according to the rules pf,
was the time for comrnening public business. •
first order of the day was a motion ou the Tru
he thought it would be better to postpone
it
petitions bad been presented.
Lord ALTHORP thought when Atty..toti
portance was coming forward, it "Mild twit
strictly enforce the rule of prootradiet 'to buld
o'clock, as it would appear likcihitifn
against the petitions of the pa 01414 bet" he
petitions were presented after that WA'
would refrain from observations on .llweeil
the queetioa to which they referred raalibil°
On such an understanding he tehoeld-ettel
consent to an arrangement. •
A number of petitions What, thaltei
then piesentecl, amongst which:lW "gin'
TESLEY, signed by upward* of:10,00"
the Potteries.
WAYS AND MEANS.
Lord ALTHORP requested the"per
Hon. Member fur Stafford, to move' the
for bringing up the Report of the Comm
Means. It would not tend to any diem
Sir A. GRANT brought up the Re,
mittee of Ways and Means.
The Irish Magistracy Bill was read t
ordered to be committed to-morrow.
THE TRUCIC,SYSTI
Mr. LITTLETON said that it wets
tisfaction to him, that after the dies,
taken pixie last year, owing to the
at
the session, he had at length as el
leave to do away with the mischief*
km. At the same time he much rd
so materially affecting the millet t 1
trade of the country, bad not fallen
hand,. It might happen that sow
in the remote and more agricultural
were not acquainted with the bee
as to form an opinion of its evil t
some time the
.stobject was so DC
been so frequently discussed—Au I
and its dangers were so imminev
gentlemen would defer somewhat
who, by living in the districts st
operation, had more competent tn,
on the subject. The facts that he
not be confined to any particular
suit of a pretty extensive acquai
evßill, as, unfortunately, its mu
sire enough to have given rise
diderynor irotteonfdthtois island.—hietnclteh sai
hit
system. Though for the la st
had been something of this •
population of this country, 3
last one hundred and 'thy?'
that abaracter which hila
chief which they now saw.late to oldish* attestiow of
nature of thie system- •!e
goods a provisions instead
ied on by '
which it was carr
I money for their wages, ticl
or, in other instaarea, Pt
lowed to the mechanic or
that they most stood it
o:kin
stances money was very
r stOenre:
se
up &large shop
rid fur their wo e
all, in point of fact ; ft
evade the law, gave mono
they quitted the premiss
The ships of which he
some relative or servant
pose ; or when the trad
suttee on his own a,
with the retailer,
count. But the me
greater his advantage
enabled to stock his
pay for that stoc)
months ; so that, iv
money, he was obtain
mean to assert that
the ntastera; but it
a man discharged fin
be taken in by an:
seemed almost natio
known that a man
to this mode of pa
master, Rho pia i
employment. Hr
nufacterers there
persons who gee
admitted, at the a
manufacturers ales
it for their own
spreading. Not)
given list italic
intuit. lie arc
tent, as be had
but he might r
charged their n
market prices,
100 per cent.
men dependent
and lie heard
obliged to put
work. He h
by Mr. Hum,
Icient to sat
untrue states,
Mr. lIU3
but the nem
statement.
Mr. LII
Member wt
could assnr
ments. T
stances of
masters.
and his a
give Ler t
buy yea
Member
year, yid
the true!
this aye
to pay
ties.
iu true!
mentio
up, as
been p
under
tent ii
was r
more
a too
tore
they
If it
dos
as
tier
efrf
to!
an
ifs
0'
a:

-.i.q.VA' .p.)krt')-2avi

I C 4

• -r!, • -
)104 from the Legislature, to follow thise system.. They
prayed the Legislature to prOtect them the• d tette to
avoid being driven ban this disgraceful , end dishoLour.thle
praitire; but they could not sit still and see their capital
Meltaway ; and if their fair and hottest exertions were
not protected, they must act on the same plan as their
neighbenrs. It was too bad that only those men were to
he stlecestful who continually violated the law. It would
101 seid,'perhaps, that these great masters might leave the
trades bet that was not so easy; they had large quantities
of ilia capital, of buildings and machinery, which they
could not dispose of—which they were obliged to keep
ping, and which they could neither stop nor dispose or
,wit:Mat great injury. The Legislature ought not to suffer
such to he ruined for the advantage of , others, who
both injured the Workmen and violated the law. It
affected another class most seriously, and that was the
thopkeepri. As it had been said by a friend of his,
this system cut down the shopkeepers as with a two-
!Aged sword. It cut off their natural customers, and
at so impoverished the poor,. that they bad nothing
to lay out with the shopkeepers, who, at the same tiros,
had additional rates to pay to support the men whom
the, truck masters had 'reduced to poverty. The shop-
iteepers were in many places seriously injured by the
truck system. It did not, however, seem very advanta-
geous to the truck master, or rather, they were a de-
ticription of persons whom ne advantages could make
Politer ; and of twenty in one place, eighteen or nineteen
had become bankrupts. The landowners were also much
itijitred by this system. The population were in seasons
of activity drawn into the manufacturing towns, and
When that season was past they were returned to the
Country, And because a burden in their own parishes to
the bindowner. The system engendered low prices and a
iuperibundance of labourers, and injured in every way the

unfurtunete workmen. The Hon. Member then rertrred
to the lantana in which the land had grown up to its
preterit itate. The first Act on the subjpet wal passed in
the 4th of Edward IV. in 1465. That was a period of
Civil war; battles were fought in the country, and
_so-
ciety was disorganised. The city of London was then in-
undated with foreign manufactures, and there were not
lest than 15,000 foreigners in Lond.m. The natives were
in a Manner dr:ien away, and the truck system was intro-
duced by the foreigners. Tu repress this grievance the
law was pelted. It was a sharp, stringent law, and im-
posed heavy penalties, equal to treble the amount of Lis
wages. The law continued unaltered till the reign of
Elisabeth, when two Acts were passed of a local nature ;
but for 138 years little was heard of truck. The law
sontinued so till the reign of Aune, when it was re-
laxed, and by the Ist of George I. the penalties were
lowered to twenty shillings. The result of this was,
that great distress ensued in several districts, disturb-
Lucre followed, and . a large part of the count!), was
convulsed. The Parliament fur three years—in 1725,
1726, and 1i27---was employed in examining into the
state of the country, and one of the results was, that a
Dill was passed to regulate the payment of wages and re-
Feu the truck .system. The truck masters, however,
Utterfered with this enactment, and got inserted in it a
clause, that the workmen should receive part of the penalty;
and the consequence was, that this Act of Parliament was
null, and of no effect. By the 22d of Geo. 11. the law
Warn again relaxed, arid the payment of the wages of
tworkineU in goods allowed. The consequence of this was,
that great distress again ensued, whole districts were the
prey of the truck system, riots again broke out, and the
Government was obliged to draw a cordon of troops round
the manufacturing districts of the West of England. The
fallowing year the Act was wholly repealed. The only
Aats be believed, subsequent to that time was the Ist of
(home IV., which he bad brought in, and in which he
adopted the language of the Statute of Elizabeth, but for

Want of power that Statute was not effectual. Such was
the present state of the law, and be would proceed to
Point out what he meant to do by the Bill he proposed to
introduce. Ile proposed, then, first, to prohibit the in-
direst practice of paying ueiget by goods, or making con-
tracts !or that purpose. Ile would give the Megistrateta
Power to get a ditect proof of the practice, and would
enable the workmen to recover their wages by a summary
Procne. 11, would submit their case also to Jurors, as
better qualified than Magistrates, to give a correct
decision ; and allowing the labourers to appeal to a
Jury would give publicity to bad casts. Ile meant,
also, to take from track-masters tie power of recovetiug
inY wages they might advance to their workmen.
The compelling the masters to pay wages in money
Would operate to make them pay pet itelically and
at short period.. lie also proposed to make the
:" of stringent nature, for it would be idle
.7 attempt to snake it effectual without imposing
eery heavy penalties. To retrieve one objectiou, he would
*Wile the Privy Council, on application heing mule to it
by the Magistrates of any district, to suspend the tip,re..
lion of the Act in that district. Stich were the objects
lit contemplated by his present Bill, which did not differ
much from the Bill lu hail introduced last Session. Ile
knew that the lion. Member for Middlesex would oppose
the hill, and he should beg leave to anticipate some of hitt
arguments. lie knew that that Hon. Member Would say
that the truck-muter was driven to this system'by Corn
I.lWs and heavy taxation, but he would tell that Hon.
Ressler that any possible reduction which could be made
is taxation, or any abolition of monopoly, or the total
rleal of the Corn Laws, would not relieve the distress
of the people: ,The truck system was the cause of the die-
ire", aed that would not be touched by auy one of these
treasures. The Hon. Member would tray, leave it to eons-
Petition---that competition Would cure the evil. . He ad-
Witted that competition was great, but he did not think
that any success or any.defeat could make the truck•mas-
tent give up the system: In 1824 and 1825, when trade
Wall brisk, whets all the nuteufecturers were in a moat
Prosperous state, ire had not heard that one of the truck--
4tasters had Rivets up his plan. Ile stated that fact as an
Imswer to many of the statements of the Hon. Member for
4litidlesex. With respect to injuring these people by his
le.W allure, it would not, most probably, be passed before
June,„„and he meant that it should not come into operation
411 three months after it was, passed; so that the truck
master would have till September to make new arrange-
ments. The people wished for this. Bill as a protection....
the great capitalists demanded it as the means of prevent-
themD from engaging in the same business. The lion.
4ftber. fur Bliddlosex meant, he believed, to move fur
N 4
"notnittee, with a view to have all the laws referred to it
*bids related to the subject. He could only repeat that
l classes with whew he had had any communication de-
manded some measure of protection to save them from
Nisi. If the practice were good,' why not make it uni-
versal? Surely that which was good at Paisley must be
11°,t1 at Glasgow, and that which was good at Bolton
could nut be Injurious at Manchester. Unless the House
1161die41 to see the systetn becotne universal—opiues it was
replied to see money banished from the rnmufacturing
,istricts—uniess it wished that all the workmen in the
4lsedous should be paid their wages in goods of an un-
certain nature—unlom the House desired to see all these
shrugs, it would take treasures to put a stop to the truck
"ystent, and it would second him in his efforts to pass
!tot •The Hon. Member then referred to is passage
is the works of Adam Smith, which agreed with his view
lthis question, andandobserved that his lamented friend.
ir.
Iluskisson, hail extracted it, with the intention, if
rrovidence had spared his life, of reading in that House
4111buppnt of the motion which' he knew would be made
'4 the House in connection with the truck system. He
t°llelueled by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to con..
volidate and amend the larva relating to the payment of
*sera in goods.
Alr• EWART (its we were told) seconded the inn-
T'or and declared that its the county of Lancaster, with
which he was connected, sotne measure of this kind was
elholtitely necessary fir the pretectioreof the workmen.
11r. HUME said, no laws, which the Legislature
4f, the time• had been able to devise, could step the Kim-
il4; nor no laws whirls the Legislature could devise now
*
Put art end to the system of bargain between the
'taster and the workmen, 4 it suited their convenience to
ty,,diaPt it; and as to the distress among the wotktnen, of
the [tail leer told it was the cause, he was con&
;:nt he should be able to prove that the distress no more
;rtes
the working of the truck system than the high
kr.'" of provisions was to be taken formerly as is cow-
r°re of the system of forest tiling and regrating. In
t: °Pinion, the workmen and the masters should be left
ithemselves, and to the bargains which their wants or
41'lles allowed them to enter into, just in the same tnan.
er 44 trade was now left unshackled by the laws against
fws against
The Legislature, by: its interference, would
6641ee1Y add to the evils which it intended to cure; and he
hutt'eli therefore, that no such measures as those contain.
1,3
11'44 by hie Hon. Friend would receive tire assent of the
aute, until a Committee of Inquiry had established
heir
necessity. :That itiquity he detnrsndttd from the
ht:usel and lie was confident, if g.anted him, be should
tv,irde to disprove neatly the whole of the statements on
1L4,0! hie lion. Friend supported his motion for leave
.
bring in the Bill. The Honourable Member said
thin Bill was required by all the great capitalists.—
ittdrd not believe it to he so. Ile knew many
capitalists, who did not reqsl;ee a-Dill of this
~_or who had expressed no opinion about it; but
t:it he knew well, that without the truck system, it
111;61!Itl Le linpessible for rho small capitalists to carry on
qr business, rind be was convinced, that if the Bill was
, three partiof thesis would be compelled to abandon

'their !ctiles, and to tbrqr the workmm out of emphty-
mint. bid the Hon. Member, in point of fact, consider
the nature of his own Bill ? According to the provisions
of it, workmen, in coal, stone, salt, and several other com-
modities, were exceptvd ; so that the Hon. Gentleman
would allow the cabinet-maker, or the iron-muter, or
any other trade of that kind, to Tommy it to any extent
over his workmen, while he refuses the same privilete. to
the atone or the salt-master. He (Mr. flume) had visited
many places where the truck system was in full operation ;
he had conversed. with the workmen and their employers,

and he had come to the conclusion that the system was
beneficial to the labourer, and that in almost every case
where goods were delivered to the workmen they were of
aro' bolt quality, and sold at a fair market price, In most
cases the stores were indeed, set on foot bemuse the work.
men were placed in such a situation that they could nut
he readily supplied with good articles is any other place.,
In the petition he presented on this subject to the House,
it was distinctly stated that the workmen had obtained
great advantage by the stores ; that theirwegeiWent much
farther than when they were compelled to give a much
higher price for bad articles at the same shops in the
neighbourhood; and that the establishments where the:
system was at work were in many cues so far removed.
from any town, and the small shops were so ill supplied.
with the goods required by the families of the workmen,:
that they were in reality great gainers by the est Nish-
ntent of stores at the manufactories.. In the case of
Lanark, for instance, which pie had visited in the course.
the summer, and where there was, as every one knew, a
large establishment, what was the condition of the work-
men ? There were about 1,900 persons at present em
ployed in the manufactory ; but at the time when the
buildings were first erected there were no buildings in the
vicinity occupied as shops, and there were therefore no
means by which the wants of the workmen could he sup-
plied, unless they went'to Lanark „itself.- Now, however,
that there was a store established; there was scarcely an
article which they could not procure pin tea
silk gown, from a pound of oatmeal to a straw hat, sr a
handkerchief, and that too at a price lower than: they bad
been in the habit of paying for inferior articles elsewhere.
The lion. Alembericemed to consider that the; taking of

goods at these stores was compulsory; but no compulsion
was used, nor was it necessary.. Each workman, when
engaged at the factory, received a book from the store, and
if his wages were 12s. a week, he received credit for ea.
or 10s., which he might take out in one purchase, or in
many, as it suited hip wants or his desires ; but after he
had been is employment fur some time, he might receive
a ticket on the store for the whole of his wages, if he de-
sired it. Ile bad seen the books, and the whole of the
system ; for there was no attempt at,concealment. Every
article was was purchased at the lowest price, and the pro.
fits were ab-ut 10 per cent. What, however, did the es-
tablishment do with these profits ? Why they were ap-
plied to the support of four schools, at which the chil-
dren of the workmen, male and female, were, up to the
age of It or 14 years (when they received employment in
the factory,) taught to read and write, and all that know-
ledge which was fit to render them mural and useful mem-
bers of society. This was a specimen of the working of
the truck system in Scotland; and could the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, after hearing such a statement, agree
without inquiry to the motion of the Hon. Member?
Among the other assertions of the Hon. Member which
he, with all respect, must say required proof, it was con-
tended that the desire for the abolition of the truck sys-
tbm was general. lie (Mr. Hume) denied that it was so;
A4(l he also denied a statement put forth with great confi-
dence in the la,t discussion, that the truck system was ge-
neral among the masters of Glasgow. He bad, since that
period, visited Glasgow, and Mr. K. Finlay, a man who
employed himself upwards of 900 'workmen, had at once
assured him there was not a single instance of a payment
of wages in goods in the city of Glasgow, nor had he heard
of any, except at an establishment of Mr. Dunlop, a
few miles from the town, and in a place where the work-
men could not be readily supplied with their necessaries
elsewhere. It should be recollected too that Glasgow con-
tained a population of 160,000 inhabitants, of whom
more than 40,000 were workmen. Ile did not deny,
however, that the Truck System did prevail to great ex-
tent ; and that, perhaps, in Bolton and some parts of Lan.
casbire, it might be productive of evils, but he contended
that it was not in the power of the Legislature by inter-
ference to remove them ' • and that all the acts already
passed on such, subjects had aggravated the evils they were
intended to remedy. The Hon. Member had declared that
all the great capitalists were adveist to the system. Now,
he knew that Bolton and Watt were not ; and that Mr.
liolton had, on the contrary, expressed no opinion on the
subject. But, supposing that the great capitalists were
united on this point—and he believed it was true that they
had no objection to see the system put an end to—what
would be the consequence to the small capitalists, who, in
times when trade was dull could not command the same
supply of ready money ? Why, the consequence would
be, that all the smell capitalists must close their factories
and blow out their (mimicries, and their trade be com-
pletely a enupoliaed by these who bad money at
command. The workman would thus be forced to accept
of employment in any place where it would be offered,
instead of leaving him at liberty to choose his own master,
The whole of the principle connected with questions of this
description had as his lino. Friend well knew, received a
thorough discussion it tits Committee which sat to inquire
into the at.te of the combination laws. On that occasion
it would be recollected, that the Committee sat fifty days
to inquire into the state of the workman in relation to his
employer, and that, after a hard struggle, the friends of
the ebandonoaent of injurious restrictions were enabled to
sweep away upwards of sixty Acts from the Statute Book,
and to put an effectual termination to that state of bicker-
ing which had so long prevailed between the worlanan
and his employer. " It was expressly declared that the
workmen and their employer were in future allowed to
make any bargain they thought fit, and to concert any
measures they conceived most likely to benefit their inte-
rests, provided only that they abstainedfrom violence or
intimidation. This was, he thought, the principle which
should govern the whole of their conduct towards the
workmen. He had always thought there was much too
strong a passion for interfering with the workmen on such
occasions. The lion. Member wiatuol to treat the work-
men as children, and talked of their inability to guard
themselves against the power of their trowels ;.but he
(Mr. Hume) thought they were us well „Able to judge of
their interest_as any other portion of.the community ; and
he was satisfied their moral character was raised by in-
creasing their sense of independence, mid suffering them
to delved on the resource* of their own minds, or the con.
tract: with their 'nesters, rather titan by placing them un-
der the protection of Acts of Parliament. If the lion. Mem,
her granted him an inquiry, he should be • able
to prove that the workmen were fitted to, go
without leading atrium and that they were not
children, as the Hon. Member supposed. The ques-
tion now was, whether or not the Legislature was pre-
pared to improe those restrictions with regard to wages
which it had removed With respect to labour, and that,
too, at a time when the Act of George IV., chap. 84—
he meant the Act with regard to the.enforcement of con-
tracts—provided a remedy for every complaint of a breach
on either side by an immediate appeal to the nearest Ma-
gistrate? The Hon. Member seemed to think the work-
men were oppressed ; but the fact was that tl:e musters
were the oppressed ; and it was a fact that in a small
town near Sts kport Sixteen prosecutions had been coin-
menced against masters for doing acts of charity by giving
employment on the terms required by the workmen them.
selves. These prosecutions wire carried on at the instiga-
tion of the Committees of the workmen, and contrary to
the &Sire of those emplUyed ; but yet the Magistrates hail
been compelled to inflict the penalty of ten pounds, for each
udrenee. His' lion. 'F' iced haul explained the law on this
subject ; but,- in his opinion, I is lion. Friend did not
fully comprehend its provisions, fly the pteseot law, if
master gave a iallon Of finer, or ten pounds of beef to a
man, as a part of his wages, lie was liable to be stun
mooed +dere' a Magi.ttate, and fined. By. Lis Hon.
Friend's Bill thst tine was greatly increased an the second
offence, and on the third the roaster might be tranapot tell.
A principle more hostih, to the freedom of trade than the
principle of the measure could not be conceived. A single
labomer was empowered by it to call fur the production
of the books of m merchant or tradesman, for the purrrose
of their being examined. To legislate by means of such
machinery was most unadvisuble,
Mr. LITTLETON denied that such Machinery existed
in his Bill.

Mr. HUME said, that the Bill had been three times
printed, and that, perhaps, it hat undergone alterathim
Such a measure was calculated to increase those rancorous

feelings which at present existed ; and which stimulated
committees of workmen in every town to bring masters
before Magistrates, and subject them fine and other pn.
nishment. In Many cases, where the Magistrates were
quite satisfied that the toaster had been influenced by a
Clutritible feeling,, and a wish to relieve his workmen,: they
were, nevertheless, much against their own feeling,ohliged
to punish them. With respect to contracts, it was well
known that whatever engagements were made between..the
master and the man, there were easy modes of enforcing.
The terror under which his lion. Frien►l laboured whs,
that the truck system occasioned the distress, insteSd
of
being occasioned by it. Be (Mr. Hume) was exceed►ngly
desirous to avoid the evils which he thought would result
from the adoption of hie lion. Friend's Bill ; but, above

, . .
all, lee was anxious - that the Legislature might not he
led away by feeling or passion to take any step without;
giving a fair anti full opportunity for inquiry. When
he bad argued against the. Comleination 'Laws be ha
been charged with seeking popularity. Then, as new,
he never adverted to popularity ; he proceeded on prin.:
ciple. He cared not for this party or that ; for the-inside•
or the outside of the House. •He was:confident that leis
view of the subject was the right one. If the men thoughrj
differently, he would tell them frankly they were in error.'
Every Member lead his nostrum for the present distress
His Honourable Friend the Member for Staffordshire had
his nostrum. He (Mr. Hume) had his ; and it was the
abolition of the Corn Laws ; the abolition of the law.,
which prevented the manufacturers of this country from
being enabled to send the produce of their industry int.,:
the foreign market. He had been accused of holding
strange ideas respecting taxation. Pie certainly had the.
strange idea that taxation took money out of the pockets of:
the people. Other Hon. Gentlemen might, perhaps
think that it put money into the-pockets of the people.--:
But taxatiun was only one cause of the distress. There
were twenty other cauaes. He attributed the distress tee
concurrent causer!. operating both at 'home and abroad.
He was convinced that the proposed measure would be
injurious) both to the master and the men. He would ask
his Hon. Friend the Vice-President of the Board of Trade
whether he thought industry of any kind could be pro-
moted by putting fetters upon it? The present Bill would
he an iron fetter that would go to the bone, He really
was at a less to conceive, since the Bill was not to operate
until October, why an inquiry into the fact, of the case
might not be instituted in the interim. He had seen
some gentlemen from Bolton ; and if lee bad time he
would go down to that place, and argue the people who
were unfavourable to the truck system out of their pre-
judices.—(A laugh.)—Yes, if the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would grant him a committer, he would pledge
himself to go down to Bolton, and there argue the ques-
tion. He knew the good sense of the working classes of
this country ; the Government was mistaken if it supposed
that the_ anufacturing classes of the country were not, in
intelligence, fir, before it.—(Laughter from both sides
of the House.)—Yee, the higher classes had been reced-
ing for years in information, and during all that time
the lower classes lead been going forward,--for, to use a
common phrase, the schoolmaster had been indeed abroad.
He would take a' committee of 60 manufacturers from
Glasgow,-,.a place with which he was better acquainted
than with any part of Eugland,—and he could go into the
other HouM of Parliament and take a committee of 60
peers—(Hear, and laughter)—and lee would stake his
life that the 60 manufacturers would be found the most
sensible beings by far.—(Much laughter.) Sete lee was
that they might look a long while among the manufactu-
rers before they would find one who would talk so much
nonsense as a Noble Lord talked the other eight un that
never-trobe-fergotten statement about the distress of the
country, particularly with regard to machinery..-(Hear,
and laughter.) , Instead of adding to the number of sta.
tutes regulating labour, be would, if he could, clear the
Statute Book of all fetters upon both mattera and men.
Let them be removed, and the common law would be found
qUite enough for the purpose of enforcing contracts. There
were the Hawkers' and Pedlars' Acts; for instance. Why
should they not be repealed ? Why was the hawker and
pedlar to be prevented from carrying his wares to the door
of a poor man, who probably had not leisure to repair to
any neighbouring town ? it was allowed on all hands that
it would be a good thing to carry justice to every man's
door ; why not to carry goods ?—(A laugh.) Why had
fairs been eatablished ? Because shops did not exist in every
village, and thee inhabitants were, therefore, obliged to go to
the neighbouring town to buy what they wanted. Such
laws were so loamy fines and penalties to prevent the great
mass of the population from obtaining easily what they
required. Ile would again appeal to his Hon. Friend, the
Vice-President of the Board eel Trade, whether it was not
true that the less they legislated with r, ference to com-
mercial matters the better?--(Hear.) Who could make
a bargain for another man better than he could retake it him-
self ? Individuals in society generally conceived that they
were the best able to make contracts advantageous to
themselves. If they tied their own legs they could not
run. Why tie the legs of other people?--(A laugh.) If
the opposers of the truck system persisted that there were
inconveniences attending it, let those inconveniences be in-
quired into. The retail dealers, who were at the bottom
of all this outcry, he could prove gut the labourers into
their debt, mach more than the masters did ; and that the
labourers were much creole at the mercy of the formerihan
of the latter. He knew one master who every week had
to retain the greater part of the wiles of ninety-five of
his labourers for the purpose of satisfying the demander of
the retail dealer. .Be should propose as an mneudnienta
to omit all the words in the original motion after the
word " that," for the purpose of inserting the following :
"a Select Committee be appointed to inquire what lead
been the operation and effect of the Acts prohibiting the
payment of wages in goods; anti to report to the House
else evidence thereon, and their opinion as to the propriety
of repealing or amending those Am., or to bring in a new
Act on the subject "
Mr. SADLER gave his warm support to the motion of
the lion. Member for Staffoni.hire. He had some know.
ledge of the evils occasioned by the truck system ; and
although he admitted that there :night be exceptions, he
maintained that in general those evils were of the greatest
magnitude ; and operated upon immense maims of the
community. The Hon. Member for Middlesex was a bad
judge of the situation of English artisans; but those who
knew that situation knew the evils which the system im-
posed upon them. The clamours to which the Hon.
Member for Middlesex alluded were occasioned by the
sufferings of the people. Those sufferings especially
affected the hewer dames ; those whose interests Paley
said, it was the first duty of a Legislature to demur
The truck system had long been a crying grievance, is
had been so four hundred years ago ; and was one of
those usages which haml:chiefly impeded the progress of m-
oiety. The lion. Member fur Aliddlesex could see the ex-
pediency of keeping the circulating medium in a sound
state, as it respected the higher demur ; why was not the
circulating medium between master and nom in the lower
classes to be kept in a state as sound ? If a master owed
bis labourer twenty shillings, why was be to have the
power to compel him to take twenty pounds of rancid
lumen in part payment? When a master hail the power
of' fixing his own price on a commodity, the wages
e ptreosiected by the Le-
gislature. There was Another class of persons ahretrbed iu
of the labourer could never be certain. Whatever might
be the nominal wages ea labourer under such a master,
his real wages were merely what the sweater might choose
to- make them. The lion. Member for Middlesex 'poke
of the retail dealers as being at the bottom of cite clatnour
on the auhject. That he denied; but at the Fame time,
he maintained that des interests of that class of persons--
and contributed
Alarege lalys which
W the revenue—.ought rates,
time vertex of this system, from which they could not ex-
tricate themselvee, although fully aware of all the evil at-
tendant upon it. He meant those masters who had signed
pe itiens in favour of the order!), from feelings ref selfole-
fence—who, while they deplored the evils of the system,.
knew that unless they retorted to it they could not main-
tain a competition with the other masters. It had been
that if the truck system were abolished, above fifteen
thousand !menthe would be immerii.rteiv thrown out of em-
Phlment. Why ? Employment follawed demand. Did
the power of the master to pay leis labourers` wages in
adulterated flour or decayed bacon occasion any increase of
denund ? If the employer had credit to obtain flour and
bacon, lee must have credit to obtain tnoney with which
to pay his labour.r. He exholted the House to proceed en
the abolition of the aystem, and to proceed without delay.
It was said, that the labourer might at present refuse to
receive his wages in the shape of commodities. That,
W 43 true. Beet might. smut the master any, "If you hoist
on my giving you money, it with be the last you shall re-
coiee?"—.(Hear, t ear.)—What must ig, lice co.equencd
That a, man would never dare to refuse the, deacon and
arm that his eurpheyer offered him. Ile knew many
ewes ire which a labourer had received from his employer,
in payment el hie wages, cheese, which lee immediately
afterwards sold at a loss of 60 per cent. Why altoulti any
mars he compelled tee suffer:pelt a diminution of the well-
earned reward of his industry?
Mr. ROBINSON said two propositions had been sub-
mitted to them. The one' for leave to bring in a Bill at
onee to abolish mime evil complained of; the other for the
appointment of a Select Committee, to inquire and report
these opinion on the circumstances of time case. Such
bring o.e alternative ; the latter proposition was decidedly
that which should receive his support. He believed the
truck system was very prejudicial to the labourers anti to
the retail dealers throughout the country. Last year lee
was not aware that it existed in the city which lee had the
honour to represeut. lie lead since found that it did sta
exit, and that there Wall a strong feeling against it ; and
he lead horsy m110;464:44 called upon by his constituents
to assist in its Abolition. Under them circtunstanceee lee
roes not to epitome the Bill moved fur by time Hen. Member
foe Steffordthire ; but merely to call the otteretion of tho
Meese ,to tire calm coavideration of which of the two
propositions before Them was entitled to the preference.
Let not the House deceive themseleti by suppoming, that
to put an and to time truck syitem, would be to put an end
to the existing evils in the country. Thee truck system
was rather time effect than the cause of those evils. Those
evils, as time lion. Member for liliddl,:sex bad justly

served, arose out of a cronplication of moles, If he,
thought that tLe Bill moved for by the Hon. Member for
Staffordshire would immediately produce the effect of
plying the labouring classes in money, and , thereby
producing a better positron of t:,,ngs, no man would more
cordially Mid willingly support the measure. Indeed he
did not by any !mans now oppose the bringing in of the
Rill. If the House determined to allow the Hon. Mem
ber to bring in the Bid, he (Mr. Robinson) would not
only not oppose its progress, but would 'give his humble
assistance in rendering it as perfect an instrument as pos..
.ibis for carrying . into effect the benevolent views of its
author. But what he was particularly anxieus to impress,
upon the House was, that the evils un&r which the ma•.
nufacturing districts were at present suffering, were not to
be remedied by any one act of legislation. If the Bill
should be carried, it would have the effect of producing n
diminution of the demand fer labour„ and it was from
the want of that demand that so much misery now.
existed. He admitted that the man who was obliged to
take bad goods, or goody which he did not want, must
do it under the operation of some power of compulsion ;,
but, on the other hand, what compulsion was it dent
obliged him to take these goods except
,that of the want rat
employment, which existed independently of this systr m ?,
Ile feared that this Bill would not remove that cause.
fle should therefore support Mr. flume's amendment for n
Select Committee of Inquiry ; but if the House should
agree with the measure proposed by Mr. Littleton, and
aft,r the disetts?,ion they had had on this subject, should
be of opinion that it might be adopted without a Coen-.
mittee of Inquiry, he should then do his best to examine
the details of the measure.
Mr. HYDE VILLIERS really did not think they hail
made a sufficiently cleur Case for granting the motion with.
out a Committee of Inquiry. He begged the House to'
recollect that this was a most important measure—that it
must have an undefined effect upon the great interests of the
country—and that if they legislated without inquiry, they
might find that they had involved themselves in consi-
derable difficulties. Every one was agreed that in cont..'
anon cases no person should pretend to prescribe a remedy.
for any evil with the nature of which lie was not tho-
roughly acquainted. Yet, in this instance, so far were all
men gum having agreed upon the nature of the evil to be
Jetnedied, that no two men held the same opinions upon
it. Some supposed that the whole system was forced,
upon the men by the power of the misters ; others
doubted that fact, and believed it was a system
adopted for the convenience of both. Now it seemed
to him most probable that the latter opinion was
correct. If one agreed to pay, and the other to
receive wages in goods, theta could be no injustice
in Such an agreement ; and this Bill was not required
fur such a case ; if the same agreement was made,
and alter the work had been perfotmed, the master in-
Sistsel paying in truck, there would be a manifest injustice
in such a case; and if this 1311 was meant to plovide
against that injustice, then it hecante a Bill for the better
securing the performance of contracts. The House ought
surely to know what was the subject, and the exact nature
of the measure; but without inquiry it was impossible for
the House to he informed on the subject. He believed
that the truck system was funded on the mutual and
voluntary consent of the master and the workmen, for
otherwise he could not understand how it was that the
system had been so long and so extensively idol ter!. Even
the Hun. Member who introduced the Bill admitted that
it bad existed in times when distress was not generally
or severely felt. and that admission was sufficient to show
that its adoption had been a matter of preference. That
it was adopted by the preference of both parties, was proved
by the fact that the men who (since the repeal of the Com-
bination Laws) might legally combine for any purpose of
their own, and who had, in fact, combined upon several
ether questions, bad never once thought of entering into a
combination on the subject of this system. It appeared
to him that this measure was not one of ma re regulation of
contracts, but that it involved the immensely-imp wtant
principle 'of regulating the rate of wages ; anti he must
repeat, that any principle of so great and extended an
operation ought not to be adopted withont inquiry. He
thought' it would he a strong measure for any one to pro-
pose, that that House should say to the Masters through.
out the country, " You shall not give less than a certain
rate of wages," and to the labourers, " You shall not re-
oeive less than a certain rate of wages ;" and perlieps there
were few, if any, who would be found to propose such
a measure; but he must say, that in principle, a Bill
which said to the toasters " You shall not pay," and
to the workmen " You shall not receive wages ill
truck," differed little from a measure of the sort to which
he had alluded. No one in that House would like to he
told that lie must keep his servants on board wages ; yet
4 declaration similar in principle was made by this Bill to
every master in the kingdom. Ile did not mein to deny
that there hail been cases of gross occasional abuse under
this system ; but no Mall of judgment would say that a
system ought to be abolished because there were oases of
abase under it; nor did any man at present know, with
any degree of certainty, whether the abuses under the eye-
tem had been of great extent or not. He must say one
word with respect to the petitions on this subject. How
was it that when so many individuals, is many classes of
individuals, must feel a deep interest in too continuance of
the truck system, no petitions lead been presented in its
favour,though so many had been laid on the table against

t ? That was me of the matter* Iwo which he wished

to inquire. He supposed that it would he asserted by
some lion. Genthmvn that tho truck system enabled the
mastery to effect a_greater.redu6tion of wages than they

would be able to effect if the labourer was paid in money.
It might, be said, too, that this Ives the cause of the
great number of the opponents of the present system, for
that die labourer would be more sensibly made to feel the
reduction in the scale of the cAnforts of life, and that he
would naturally struggle against his own degradttion.
That opinion might be well founded, lint he could not
venture to legislate on mere speculative opinion ; he there.
fore required a Committee of Inquiry, without which he
should not be satisfied to proceed.—(llear.)—lt was
found, he believed, that though the Igen' worked well in
some planes, it might have a contrary tendency in others;
but how were the House to know that without
or how (Auld they ascertain whether the el, il, of the
system were such as to call on them to get rid of it—or

that if they did get sill of it, they might not introduce
a greater evil in its place.—( Hear, hear.)—There were,
upon the present question, distinct is.uts on matters of
fact, that could only be well tried' before' a Select Cenn.
mittee of that House. He bad two dintiect objects of
inquiry on which he wished fur the beat information.
The first was, whether the system now existing was spun
toneously adopted by the mutual content of both masters
and men, or whether it had been &teed upon the latter
by the pressure of di•tress? The second, whether the
advantages of the system were not greater than any;•
thing they could hope to obtain in attempting to sup-
press it? and to these two points might be added a third ;
namely—in what manner the change from the present
tqstem was to he effected, if the nuking of that
change shined he found to be matter of reeessity? If
he felt himself possessed 'of fdll information upon the
subject, and if that infintruttion induced him to think that

the truck system ought to be aholished, he should most
willingly give his support to the present Bill. But he was
so impressed with the impnitanee'of the measure, that even
if it had originated with the Government, and, had been
brought lot ward as a Cabinet measure, after inquiry by
them, he felt he could not consent to adopt it without an
inquiry by a Committee of that Hon,e.....(Hear.) On this
part of the subject be wished to make one observation: he
believed that many of the evils now felt by the people arose
from the imperfect legislation of that Ilonae on mutters of
general interest. When any particular evil existed, indivi-
dual 4 were allowed to bring in tneosnres which they be.
Lend to be likely to prove remedtea to those evile, but which
being introthwed without sufficient previous inquiry, and
brio:: intended to beeet a particular contingency, often pto-.
dueeil un injorions effect on' the general interests of the
country. There was not, a Session passed in' which they
bird not some meddling with the Poor Laws. When were
they to put AO end tcl that Areitli pc'tty awl vexations le.
gill,tion? thought the present was pArticularly case in
wilier they ought not to indulge their private or Individual
feelings, but alkw
the thing fairly to go to a Committee.
Air. GILBEAT,
viewing :01 the circumstances of
the cue, thought the Bill, with proper modifications (for
he would not pledge himself to appowe of the whole
its provisions) ought to receive his support. Some pro-
vieions ought to he introduced with respect to the mining
districts, which were peculiarly situated. :Every person
who knew any thing of mining must he aware that work.
"""gaged iq the mines could not he hired in the ordinary
manner that labourers were. He thought, however, that
no manager, or captain, of a mine, aboul I he allowed to
keep a shop.

The CHANCELLOR'of the EXCHEQUER wet un.
flout/Wily at first More inclined to t•upport tiw atnendutent
then the 11111. But, having heard thegentleuten who came
forward, and described the /Atte of the'country, their oh.
„ermtions had materially altered .his opinion, and he could
not help viewing the proposition of the lion. Altunher for
iNtiddleecx as one of an extremely daugrrous character.
(Hear.) ' Tiny were now placed in tide situation, shoo
they must iitl4r repeal all the laws relating to the truck
uyatqa# ter they.utust render them perfectly tfattidn4r—
(Hear, hear.)—Such was the elternatiets presented to
them, and it was for the House to decide as to which
coulee was the more eligible. A good deft had been

said as to the character of the Thu intended to be brought
in, _by gentlemen not acquainted with its provisions,
He, however,. bad seen the Bill, which they had not,
anti therefore he could speak of it with confidence.
Those gentlemen appeared to be arguing with reference
to,a Bill formerly before Proliititoeet, whereas, the pre-
sent ll,h,though its object the same, proposed to ob-
tain that object by different means.—(Bear, hear.) In
one point, this Bill possessed a very great advantage over
the Bill of last year, This Bill provided for the repeal of
all the former Acts—.(Hear, hear)—sod all the regula-
tiims with respect to the payment of wages in truck eon •
Limited in it were clearly anti specifically pointed out.
Same provisions of a harsh nature with respect to that
point which were in the measure of last year were ex-
cluded from this. Therefore the arguments used wire
not, in feet, applicable to the Bill then before the ,House.
The question now under discussion was, whether, before
gentlemen saw this measure, they would insist on having
en inquiry, and afterwards decide whether the Bill should
be adopted under all the.tircenastances ? lie confessed that
he disapproved of that conrse.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon.
Member for Middlesex, in his very able and eloquent
ap ech, inveighed against any interference with the wages
of labour. That algtuntet, in the truth of which he
(the Chanee`lor of the Exchequer) entirely- concurred,
was advaeced by the Hon. Member in; a most unanswer-
able manner.—( Hear, hear.)---But Oren the foundation
of that wrgument was, that the transaction between the
master and the labourer was free.—Now the fiat, on the
contrary, was, that it was not free.--(bear, bear.)—The
labourer, under this system, got in debt to his master,
and be was no longer a free agent, when that toas-
ter could forte him to the adoption of that or any
other practiee which he pleased. The Hon. Member said
that the labourer might get in debt with money as well as
with goods. 'fleet was true, but not to the full extent
which the Hon. Member had asserted. The Right lion.
Baronet opposite last n,ght pointed out how exceedingly
important it was to present the manufac uring population
fit in imbibing those feeling, which at present showed
thentselves in manrof ihe agricultural districts. In that
sentiment he entirely concurred; anti, when be found the
manufecturing districts petitioning, day after day, for the
abolition of this system, he thought that it would be un-
wise and imprudent to refuse their request, or to post-
p .ne this Bill until a C munittee of Inquiry had finished its
labours. When his Right Hon. Friend near him, and
other Hon. Gentlemen, who were advocates for free trade,
admitted the necessity of adopting a measure of this kind,
it must be at once inferred, that an overwhelming cause led
them to take that course. He had seen the measure, and
would support its principle, but he did nut pledge himielf
to approve of eli its details. There were some districts
to which, perhaps, it would not be applicable, and where
it was necessary to proceed on another principle. When,
however, the Bill went into a Committee, and was altered
aid amended, be thought that it ought to he adopted by
the House.--(llear, hear.)
Sir IL PEEL meant to support the Bill of the Hon.
Member for Staffordshire ; but in no stage of it would he
consent to a Committee of Inquiry.—(llear, beite.)7-The
Bill was perhaps opposed to the rigid rules of political
economy.---(hear, bear.)-7The rules ef that science had
reference to the production of wealth in a nation ; but he
must inquire what effect the application of them, in a
given case, was likely to have on the morals of a country.
—(Hear, hear.)—Now, if it were shown to him that the
application of those rules added to the stock of wealth, but
tended, at the same time, to the destruction of moral,
amongst the people, lie certainly, to preserve those morals
' pure, would overlook and throw aside the principles of
political economy.—(Hear, hear.)—They had established,
amongst the greatest improvetnents in science, a standard
of money, by which the value of different commodities Was
to be obtained. Now the only commodity over which the
poor men had command was hie labour. That being the
case, then he (Sir R. Peel) had a tight to inquire, white
ther, in giving up that labour, the bargain made with the
poser man was a free, just, and equitable one.—(llear,
hear. )—Supposing that the transaction was nut a fair one
on the part of the master, he would ask where was the
poor m remedy ? If the pour titan were to be paid iu
money, then it was easy for the Magistrate to decide if a
complaint were made to him. If the poor man had ati.
pulated for 25., and Lot only le. lid., it was evident that
the Magistrate could grant redress. But if the poor titan
agreed to take a certain quantity of goods fur hi. &lAN in
that case he has no legal remedy by which he can recover
the price of his labour, because it then became a question
not of quality, but merely of quantity. On these few
simple and tangible grounds he should vote fur the Bill of
the Lion. Member for Staffordshire —(heer, hear.)
Mr. H. GURNEY was one of those who had opposed
the former Bill, and . from all he heel since heard, it ap-
peared to him, that ifeeer there was a Bill which ehould
hive been sent file consider-86.m to a Select Committee,
this was one. Without such inquiry be thought that
legislation on this subject would not tee found effectual,
because inquiry alone by a Select Committee could give
the nor:essay information relative to it.
Mr. ATI'WOOD bad no doubt that if the Bill sought
by his Hon. Friend (the Member for Staffordshire) were
allowed to pass, it would not only not relieve, but would
greatly add to the difficulties of the country. When the
Hoot, fund that the labourer was paid only half the
value of his wages by the delusion or contrivance of the
manufacturer, as it was represented, why not inquire, why,
the workmen could not go to some other employer, or to
some other part of the country ? Why, if they did, they
would learn that he could not, because the demand for
labour in any part was not equal to the supply. The
Hon. Member then proceeded to contend, that the caueeof
the distress was not to be found in the truck syeterp-7thet
the sauna distress existed where the truck was not in ape-
ration—that this Wes proved by the petition pre*, nted
I year from Merthyr Tytivill,77thet it was there
towed, that even with lino wages the pica of the iron
manufactures dial not pay fir the raw material and the oust
of meneraeeuee,..--that these low prieea were caused by a
change in the currency, which by raising the value of
money, oros4urse depressed prices, and with theta depressed
wages ; that the truck system by which the manufacturer
sought his profit, not in the price of his manufactures,
but in what he could obtain on the profit arising front
supplying his workmen with common necessaries, Was
forced upon him by the Legislature, which made that vie.
lent change in the currency, and that this Bill now moved
for would cut oft' from the distressed manufacturer the
only means that were left him to escape the ruin by which
he was threatened. When this system was removed, first
the small capitalist would be ruined, and more distantly,
hut not less certainly, the seine ruin would come upito
mantic hirer who-c larger capital would matte hint to
bold out somewhat longer. The last eltsuge in the cur-
rency had not been productive of sell the evil it was calcu-
lates! to produce, because' that evil lead been for a time
averted by the truck system. The only effectual relief SO
the trailer in his present circumstances would be a reduc-
tion' of taxation to it large extent.
Mr. C. I'. THOMSON said, in giving his support to
tide motion he violated no principle which he had ever ad,-
vented while sitting at the other side of tine House. The
principles he had Advocated were to give the greatest pos-
sible share of happiness to the people. lie did not think.
that, if this was a violation of the principles of free trade,
shirt he did at admit, it was any violation of the princi-
pies tif political economy: Political economy was to be taken
us a line to guide them, lent it was nil to be approaehed un-
der all cirtiumeteneee. I le owned he wait not an sanguine as to
the result of tide noseetire as pia Item Vriend--(Hear)—but
he adopted it becettse he knew of no ether in the present
excites! state of people, but to enforce tile. lowa which
required that the workman should be paid in money. It
wee said, that this system had grown cup beeauee it was
liked by the workinest ; !nit wept any one doubt that it
had been greatly eloped, and' that the !Ammer was not
always able to perform his contract ? When he was told
that he should give perfect freedom to the manufacturer,
he must claim the same freedom for the workman, and let
him have the oetion of laying out his mousy is-here he
pleased. It was said the workman you'd remove if he
did not like the system ; but there were tied which kept
him ter one place. Ile was in a great degree hound lay
the laws of settlement, and by the that of kiusirtsl, to ree
main in one place, and this wise iaeieesed by. the feelings
hnown to exist amongst the masters themselves. It wee
said, that if this system were put down, it would deprive
the public or the advantage of a large capital, militated
in supplying necessaries to the poor, as it ossulti he suppled
by such capital much cheaper than by 4 poor retailer; but,
as he understood his Hon. Velered's Bill, it would not do.
price the public of this advantage, for the menufeettirer
might.;stilli if he pleased, enter into cutopetition with
other venders of necessaries, het it should he a rompt,
tition of money, and the weeltnian slioul4ll4o paid in saucy,
with the optiott of dealing where he pleserd, ,
The AT rOnny-GENERAI, himself presented
a petition Niguel! by 8,000 of the lower classes, m fitvour
of title Bill, and, so general was a similar feeling on the
part of those nit* tamed by the system, that he felt it
tight, under such eireurnstences, to support the Hoe,
.Member for. Staffordshite. Whatever might he the ohs
jeetions ea the measure, in his opinion they entirely related
to the 'nine pre it involved, for he could not anticipate the
erobat.iiity of outrage or riot, he the deeisi,n or the
;Luse whet it aaight.-41eitt law, if pasted, uppeaxid
to him by no means Rely to cum, into active operation,
numb he seas on that account the better pleased ; for the
demoralisation of society consequent en awing an midi-

. . „., ~ ,
foe-11 openine for int omen ills eirbetuly an ofr otn WOW.
(Hear, hear.).....Wlitevor dottlitc.he might personally
. ~, ~
entertain-as to the general. policy .of the arrangetneut, be
was willing to abstain (tom a:premising them,. oat of de-
ference to the large classes whose interests were at stake;
for masters and men should be et lout illotVed to have a
voice in the regulating of their oweeconcerme—(Hear.)
(There was here a cry; of ." glotetiett,", which was be.
coining general, when Mr. Hums rose to propose au ad-
journment. The debate was then uttered to proceed.)
Mr. TENNANT was opposted to the !lilies/I }Recoil-.
ceived it would hare the e'ff'ect of placing those whom it
was intended to serve in a state of actual destitution. A
Noble. Lord opOoSite had contented himself with saying
that he was afraid to oppose it. . A strange argument this,
and the very het which be should hire expected to hear
from the lips of that Noble Lord; far it amounted to the
admission. that he only acted. on . sompuhisn, .and was
swayed by intimidation. The principle of the Bill was one
philosophic:in a legislative, point of.
-view, besides being a
direct departuri from the beet-received opinions ' and
soundest doctrines of political ecounnaists.—(Hear.)
Mr. I). W. HARVEY-observed, that is was a uniform
course with those who opposed the Bill, to recommend an
inquiry, its if there could be any doubt eespecting the sub-
ject of complaint, which was simple enough. The work.
men stated, in petition afar petition. that they could not
get the doe-reward of their labour in that standard of va-
lue which obtained as r the circulating medium throughout
the country.—(Hear, hear.) It has been sworn that they
were anxious to obtain the just peeeniary reward of their
labour, but that instead they were obliged to travel weary
miles for the put peer of rireivilig at last about fifty per
cent. of that to whirl, they were undeniably enticed.—
(Hear, bear.) The line. Aleutiter fur Callington heti
pressed into this debate hie favourite end unfeailine topic of
the currency, and he was free to admit that the means ef
the country, overhorae as it was by us:equal taxation, with
such restricted monetary remover«, -were insiofieient to
Garry it through its noiltifaristue tossifold, aid formidable
embarromments. It Was act necessary. cc vane set'.
rinsed, to bring about an exteeeirc system of Reform pre-
vious to entering on the diecussion of subjects essentially
interesting to the people. lie wits for ,an. itniiiedi.tte review
of taxation, and a repeal of taxes to the amount of
4,000,000/ or t1,000,000f., looking eltiefly to those
which were most apple:wive -lo those who were least ale
to atiatain them. Let Perliament establish a well-ordered
end duly-regulated preperty-Oax, and let the working classes
receive in loon', whatever wegis the, shell have earned,
Mr. WARBURTON suggested that the lion. Member
for Coleheeter had not deigned to . point out hew the pro.
posed Bill was to rented) the evils complained of. One
of the Members of- Government had said he we', afraid
to refuse legislating in coniplietiee with the wishes ex-
po ased in the petitions, while the other two of his col-
league. - who had spoken approved-of the measure, with--
out 'Whig how they -expected the alleged remedy to
operate. To go, however, Cu the principle of minus in
verba, he would merely add,' wish regard to political ems.
ninny, that it was a moieties which had experience for it
basis, happittemo for its objerit, and relents for he guile.
Sir F. BURDETT shoithi net hive rises to express his
sentiments on the result weldor, lad be sat. stood in
rather a singular predicament, as he eseld not help agree.
ing with those who had spoken en both sights of tbe
House--(Laughter)--.anti, 41 fast, the queetien ender dis-
mission wan one of those respecting which much might be
said either way. With the Hoe. Member for Cahington
he more particularly concurred, Ka ke, in his opittior,
took the real, true, statesmetlike view of the subject. He
thought with him that the change of currency wee the
great substantial rause of the evil sow so deeply afflicting
the country, which lie epprehended it might be difficult
for it to struggle under much loupe. This he sai.i ed.
viseilly, for his daily experience Anil intertwurne with so.
ciety confirmed hint snore end wore in the opinion lie bed
originally entertained. The ttuivet-sal complaint of mere
chant, manufacturer, agticulturiat, ship-owner, shop-
keeper,—in short, of . every clot of the community, let
industry take
.what direction it would, was to the same
ereect—namely, that they did utit receive priers sufficient
to pay taxes, together with the other don:lade made upon
them, To this, subject he shouldpot hue alluded, had
it not, brim inuidentally Istentietird by his lion. Friend,
and her was Not iguoreut that his view of it was
womewhat unpopular with many influentiel Members
of the Nouse, and equally, ta with souls no less infitten•
tial out of doors. Not a few of thow who thought dif-
ferently„ however, ware in tittle own utiods convinced that
the measure of a change of curresey was originelly wrong,
hut were at the same time of opinion that it would, under
all circumstances, .be bolter to fiessavere thou ihr rettacu
their cower. They milfht he rigid, s'r they might be
wrimg, in arriving at this rotioltaftem ; tut he stevrrtheleas
maiuttiord, that a review of the policy 'retail lend to
the discovery that thin—,thils alone—was the fuod,sinental
origin of all the evil with which the mint" y hail to cot,-
tend, and be was equally prone tu the persuoion that Eng-
land would again flourish in all her pristine preeperity,
this, capital error in our system once retrieved. Front
thC observation which had been made by the Member fin.
Colehester, relative be our monetary arrangement, he
was happy Or perceive Ilea he also, by implicetion, ex-
prettied a similar opinion. He agreed with the lion. Mem-
her for Staffordshire that the measure he lint! ;Homed wet
likely to benefit the working' population; and felt dis-
posed to accuse the Zion. Metnher fur Middlesex of a cer-
tain degree of inconsineutty, when he talked of the spread
of mlucaiou old enlightened opinions among the lower
classes bring so great as to place them einem int en ine
telleotusl level with Years of the realm—while he refused
to yield to their owe tamest reinuestrences on a subject
oonnected inionedietely with, thesuselots, in reference to
which, it must lie eckunwledgeol, that they hail safficierit
opportunity of judging. lie deemed it of luiportenee to Colt.
Ciliate such a body, sod trusted the wont attempt towards
alleviating their toiefortunes would lead so Coe happiest et-
feet'. Inquiry, iu their aeceptation, wee little butter than
delusion, and amounted at lout to a rejection of them rea-
sonable denten& This measure, to Speak negatively,
coal(' du no harm, and might act in. soon/ ;limn its, a
palliative. The partite in question were, at all events, to
the full is good polo' -of their undition.as the political
econentiste.--(Laughter.).-teOf politick'. otonottor, eh-
streeteilly considered, he was far from inclined to speak
isliglatinely, nor would he utter a word to. the disparege..
inent of its professors ; but their theories might he pee ,
fectly correct, while they 'nought the principle to bear
prectically us a point, to which -it slid tot legitimately
apply. He felt happy to add that a matt of 11It. Ricardo's
lucid mind and sound judgment coincided with him in the
'pinions be was -tltus frank to avow, as he had heard the
same sentiments more theft once from his own limo in
conversation. It- was, however, to be hoped thin the
theories of political. economists would he so applied and
acted on al In produce imiaterrupsetl eornmerce anti tin.
restrained mercantile intereourse with our neighbours'
more particularly the French, ae , such an illustration of
'be science would operate to the seivautage sit the whole
civilized world. Surely the people eonterned in tirade,
and connected practically :with the . subject, were more
likely to know what methods of relief would be arra-
,eintts, than abstract theorists who were practically unite-
quaioted with the system. As tittle people thought the al-
tension of the law by the Bill would benefit the in their
transactions, their wishes ought to be seceded to. if people
found. that the House were willing to do and had dune
every thing pessiltle fur their relief, this alums would give
them a great atuek of patience to bear the other evil*
which were 'unavoidable, anti to endure antrerings which
would cooperate them if their prayera were rejected and
their views objected to in the teeth of experience, and
I upon abstrect rinciples and ,hypothetitial reatotainge. The
rejectinu atltiktnntion would add weight to the burdens
tooter which the people were lehaering, and would demos
'the patience mid the summits with which they would
otherwite hear what they could net see eould be easily re-
medied. If the niutiou were granted, the Bill would not
rbe conontleory ; it would only give one patty the optioit
to receive their remuneration is the manner they roost
approved of, and thought to be roost to their eilvatitage.
Tbs. Noble Lord, the Chancellor of therEzehequer, was in
error, and he bad argued the ease 440 th rt error, in sup..
posing, or rather emoting, that the parties Catitt together
in these transactions upon equal Willa. Upon thi* every
thing depended, and it was becausea the, patties did not
eons* together upon equal tetras, thet the Bill !weenie ne-
cessary. If the geutlittnen of the tuertefileteeieg ei,,,e,e,
;agreed with the thousands and, hoot of time's-ids and, he
~
might say, the huntinels or thovawis of wotigiisn slid
others, who prayed for the relief which the Bill wto dee
'ail/tied to afford, he for his pert had sot a auffielent re-
.,., ,
To
%me* upon alotract principle* to reties tater gas lin
was Lt far a practical Mau, that he go* tip lloserieti end
latent% and abstract principles whenever he found that
they were et variance with enteriettee and feet*.
Ale, D. W. HARVEY exploited.
Mr. C. PELHANI would Support the motion, tvithoot
the proposed inquiry..
Mr. LITTLE.TON, under the extretne i.ii "e ,e
po b. at.
manifeeted by the House, woold net iodide taineen it
*even' obeervatione which lie should otiterw" k""'
eviehed to have made. Ile *lamb! ilierkiy coOthr, Liooolf,
therefore, to reminding the Mau silo they seem tithe
upon to vote only upon the questions whether he might
have leave to bring in a Bill. The Bill itself, its its details.
and principles, would be open to finery ditenuoiints. Thu