The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-28 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT.

Sir F. POLLOCK rose to give notice that on Tuesday
next he would call the attention of the House to the Report of
the Select Committee of last Session respecting compensation
to the late Speaker and the Officers of the House for the pro-
perty of their's which was lost in the destruction of the Houses
by fire. The Hon. and Learned Member then moved that
the Report be laid on the table and printed.—Ordered.
•
MUNICIPAL DECLARATION.

Mr. BAINES brought in a Bill, which was read a first
time, entitled the Municipal Officers' Declaration Bill.—
Ordered to he read a second time on Thuriday.
Mr. 11U ME gave notice that on Tuesday next be would
move for an account of the number of persons on the register
for 1836 and 1837, in every county, city, and borough in
Englfnd—( Hear)—also for a return of the number
of persons who actually polled at any contest during the late
general election.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would also
move for similar returns, with respect to Ireland
and Scotland. On the- same day he would ask her Majesty's
Government when that part of the Speech from the Throne
relating to Canada would be taken into consideration. And on
the same day he would move for a copy of the Report made by
the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of
Malta.

Mr. E. BULLER presented several petitions from differeni
parishes in Staffordshire, praying for the Abolition of Church.
rates.

ELECTION PETITIONS.
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, I wish to state to the
House that a doubt has occurred, though I do not think a
very reasonable doubt, with respect to the course taken upon
the last sitting of the House in regard to election petitions.
It is required that in certain cases within five days, and in
othercases within ten days before the sitting of the Committee,
I sts should be made out of the objections and lists exchanged.
The clause goes on to say that if the Committee should be
afterwards postponed then it-will be sufficient that the lists
should be exchanged within the time fixed, before the
sitting of the Committee, as postponed. It does not
seem to me that any fair doubt can arise on the sub-
ject ; but I am told that there are persons of authority who
thihk there is a doubt on the subject, and that as the Election
Committees now stand fixed for the 12th- daf of
December, that ten days before that time the parties
would feel themselves obliged to give in their list. I
state this to the House, not as entertaining any doubt my-
self, but in order that the point may not be over-
looked ; and if it is, so that the House should not
take into consideration any of the petitions before the
adjournment of the House. If there were any ground for
doubt, I would endeavour to remove that doubt to-morrow or
thanext day; but I would not wish to take up the time of the
House, unless it appears to Hon. Members there are great
doubts on the subject. But looking to the words of the
clause, which, Sir, I do not intend to quote, I think there
cannot be any rational doubt on the subject.
Mr. W. W. WYNN was understood to express his con-
currence in the observations of the Noble Lord.
Sir R. PEEL said that he was placed in some difficulty
by the course which the Noble Lord had taken ; for the
Noble Lord had given his notice. in the same terms as
he (Sir Robert Peel) had given his. If the Noble
Lord named early days after Christmas, then it would
not bo necessary for him ( Sir R. Peel) to take the course
which he had intended, as the Noble Lord's notice stood for
the same object as that which he had intended to make.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought there could not be the
least doubt that the petitions must be postponed until after the
holidays.

ELECTION PETITIONS BILL.
Mr. C. BULLER then moved the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the Election Petitions gip,

Lord STANLEY said—Sire I beg tr..' :::Ture the Hon. and
Learned Member that it is with no hostility to the object which
he has in view, or to the mode by which he proposes to effect
it, that I rise to suggest the absolute necessity Of post-
poning the consideration of this Bill. Ido not base this
suggestion on the details of the Bill or on its principle.
But the House will recollect the same day on which the
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman introduced his Bill, ano-
ther Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Dublin,
obtained leave to bring in a Bill to effect the same object, but
pursuing an entirely opposite course. I trust, therefore, that
the Hon. Gentleman will not press this Bill forward at pre-
sent.

Mr. C. BULLER was understood to say that he saw no
reason why he should not press the second reading of his
Bill.

Lord STANLEY.,-„The House ti" 3.3 desirous, before they

came to a consideration of either of these ineasurs to see tlit
both were placed before them, that they might have the power
of judging between one and the other, or of rejecting
both.—( Hear, hear.) But the adoption of the two is a muter
of absolute imposs.bility.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
insists upon our now coming to a decision in favour of the se-
cond rcadingof his Bill, in preference to another which we
have given leave to the Honourable Member for Dublin to
introduce, which we have not even yet heard detailed,
but of which we know this much, that it proceeds upon prin-
ciples directly opposed to the Hon. Member for Liskeard's.
After having pledged ourselves to the second reading of this
Bill, in what possible manner can we discuss the Bill
of the Hon. Member for Dublin ?—(Hear, hear.) That Bill
I do not say that I prefer to the Bill of the Hon. Member for
Liskeard, but they are so clearly and entirely different that the
House cannot adopt the principle of both of them, and it is
necessary that we should hear the fundamental principles
of both of them before we can decide on the adoption of either.
hear,) The Han. Member for Liskeard proposes
to make a' slight alteration in the formation of Election

Committees, and grounds his proposal upon the assertion
that the Committee, as now constituted, formed a very
partial tribunal, because they are partisans interested. The
Honourable Member for Dublin says, I admit that
hoirig interested parties, the Members of this House
are not fit to be the Judges in these cases.
I propose, therefore, to take these cases out of their control,
and refer thorn to the consideration of a tribunal independent
of this House, and connected with the Courts of Law. Now
I should very much object to the taking the consideration
of these questions of Parliamentary law out of the controul of
this , House, and referring them to another tribunal ; but
then we are bound to consider the reasons which the
Honourable Member for Dublin brings forward in sup-
port of his plan. The objection of the Learned itlember
for Dublln to the Bill of the Honourable Member for Lis-
keard is one of great we;ght; if the present tribunal, at
constituted by a ballot from the House of eleven- Mem-
bers be fundamentally and grossly partial, so that you
cannot entrust the consideration of election petitions to that
tribunal. The Bill now before us affords no remedy whatever.
I am not actuated by any particular feeling of partiality
against this Bill, and it is n.,t even my intention to object to
the second reading of it ; but I stand upon the common-sense
of the thing; and I ask wlicther a postronem.mlt of the second
reading of the Bill, which will enable the House, and narti-
euhaly new Members, to become acquainted with its details
is not infinitely preferable to a course which, to say the least of
it, will give us a very iruper:ect notion of its merits.—( Ilear.)
Sing with.respeet to the postponement in point of time,
if it had been the intention of the tion-mrall'e Member

to apply the principle of the Bill to the isetitions now
pending, then might there be some reason for this
excessive haste ; but this is not the case. The Honourable
Member in a clause of the Bill—which by the bye has been
printed, and which he cannot now depart from—provides
that the Bill shall not come into operation until the
last day of this Parliament, and he consequently admits that
the Bill is not intended to apply to the petitions bow pending:
We have, therefore, until August to consider its details ; and
I cannot see that, if we postpone the second r. a ling,
of it until February, that we shall thereby be throwing any
obstacle in its way. With reference to the Bills of the
Honourable Gentleman and of the Honouraide Member
for Dublin, I for one do not joist to the full extent in the
abuse which has been poured on the Election Committees. Ido
not go the length of saying that it is impossible to find a tribu-
nal of gentlemen so corrupt and insensible to every feeling of
honour, that a matter of fact and evidence cannot be entrusted to
them without their giving a .verdict biased by party feeling.
Sir, I wish the House in considering this question would distin-
guish a little between the gross corruption which would give a
false verdict upon facts for political and party puposes, and
that natural and, I might say, unavoidable bias which must
weigh with honestest men's minds when certain questions
arc submitted to their consideration. The fault is not
so much in the constitution of. election tribunals as the
subject matter brought before them. The fault is not that
Members cannot be trusted to give a fair and hosourable verdict
on matters of fact, but that the points brought before Election
Committees are more or less nice points of law and controverted
questions, on which much may be said upon the one side and the
other, the point being of no importance except in the particu-
lar case, but of, very great importance in the particular
case. Every Member knowing that the decision he makes on that
point immaterial in itself, and doubtful as to its being right or
wrong, has a direct and palpable bearing on the question before
him. It was for these reasons—it was because the Comrni:tee
was appointed to try matters not of fact but of law, and matters
of law, be it remembered, with the knowledge of the precise
bearing it would have on the political interests before Inm—it
was for these reasons that the honestest and purest minded men
would naturally, some on the one side and some on the other,
decide points immaterial in tin mielves in different manners,
because the law was uncerta:n, and because he knew what
the bearing of his opinion would be. He felt, therefore, that
it was not the constitution of the tribunal, but the uncertainty
of the law they bad to complain of. To begin at the right end
—(hear, hear, from Mr. Wynn)—and to satisfy both
parties for no party could prosper by opposing
a vote in such a way and, above all, to
avoid the discredit thrown upon their decisions, they must pro-
ceed in the right course, which was to simplify and refine the
law.—( Hear, hear.) They should alter the duties Election
Committees had to try; in the first place (which was the best
part of the Hon. Member's Bill), they should appoint some
tribunal to which reference should be made upon disputed
questions arising before the Revising Barrister—not in refer-
ence to the law as heard upon any particular case, but generally
in reference to the law upon Election Petitions, and laying down
that law fur the guidance of all future Election Committees.
As the law at present stood, not only was there uncertainty as
to how a Committee might decide up; on a newspoint, but as
the cases which now arose were different in some part,
so there were many precedents for a Committee to
decide both ways. Therefore it was that a paramount au-
thority, which should lay down the law generally, without any
reference to.a particular case. In his opinion, ii a Con-lams."
of Barristers were appointed from the Revising Banisters
and sat as a Court of Appeal, in a few, a very few years, ali
the possible cases which could arise in the election law would
be settled, and the duties of Committees on petitions would,
be rendered easier, and comparatively unimportant. If the
House would permit him he would throw out a suggestion for
its consideration, and that of the Hon. Member for Liskeard.
He thought it would be practicable to appoint a Committee
from all sides of the House, in whose opinions both the

Housp and the country would have confidence..( Hear,
hear.) To them he would have all conflicting decisions of
former Committees referred, and they should lay down their
view of the general law—that they should down, as far as
possible, rules of practice, and rules of law, to be a guide for
all future Committees, and would be the practice heroJter.
He would also propose that the rules so laid down shmild be
formed into law by a short declaratory Act, which he had no
doubt would be easily passed both Houses of the Legislature.
If, in such a Committee, it was found that those members of
it belonging to one party decided one way, and that members
belonging to the opposite party invariably took an opposite view
of all cases brought before them, the decision of such a Comm ittee
would carry very little weight with it, and there would be
great difficulty in passinw a declaratory Act founded on such -a
decision ; but from a Committee fairly chosen from all parts
of the House, and looking at the necessity for fixed decision
on such questions, he thought that it would be practicable
to produce such unanimity as would make it an easy matter
to obtain such a declaratory Act.—( Hear.) lie bad ven-
tured to throw out this suggestion as entirely from himself.
He ?tad consulted no one respecting it, but he was confident
that if the House wanted to obtain a legitimate authority
and an impartial tribunal, they would not obtain it by altering
the manner in which Committees were now balloted
for.—( Hear, bear.) It was not by altering the number of
Members on such a Corwittee should be five or eleven. Nei-
ther would it be by whether the names upon such a Committee
should be struck off before or after they were known. The true
way would be to make the law o clear and defined as that the
duties of a Committee should be confined to the receiving and
sifting of evidence, and not to trouble them with considerations of
law. He did not pretend that it would be so in the present ease,
but there could be no doubt that one patty would have a
leaning one way, and another would put a different inter-
pretation on the law ; but alter the present system, and then
he would declare that the mode of selecting the tribunal would
be a matter of insignificance.—( Cheers.) He would riot now
enter into the details of the Hon. and Learned Member's Bill ;
but he thought, and in saying so he could assure him he had
no party object in view, that the Hon. Member ought net to
press it, until it was seen what the measure intended to be pro-
posed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was. lie
thought the Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard had began
at the wrong end.—( Cheers. ) This being his view, he would
take the liberty of moving that the word " now," should be left
out for the purpose of inserting the words the 12th of Febrn.
ary, or the 14th. He trusted after what had taken
place, that the Honourable Member would see the
propriety of postponing for three months the second reading
of the Bill. He would conclude by moving that the Bill
should be read a second time on Monday, the I 2th of February.
Mr. C. BUL L E R was always reedy to adopt that course
which appeared to him to be the sense of the House,
or of a great portion of it; but he thought the Noble Lord
had shown no ground whatever to induce the House to
read the Bill a second time now, rather than onFebruary
(Cheers,) If he had, he should have at once acceded to his re-
q• uest The Noble Lord hal put his amendment on the
ground that leave had been given to the Right Hon Mem-
ber for Dublin, to bring in a Bill relative to the same mat-
ter. If the Noble Lord would give him any gnarantee that
the Hon. Member for .Dublin had any serious intention of
proceeding with the Bill, which he ( Mr. Buller) did not be.
lieve any man could have—( Laughter)—if the Noble Lard
would assure him, from l.is knowledge of the and Learned
Member for Dublin, that the. lion. and Learned Member
had got his Bill rtiadx to p,:mit, or that he had written cue
gin 1e word of it-( Renewed laughter)—he would tako the
No le lord's g4l4llllAec fur. the /ionourablo and Learned

Member for Dtiolin, and allow the two Bills to
proceed together ; only he must beg leave to call on the
Noble Lord, in justice to the House and himself, to let them
know a little more of the intentions of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin. If any body believed that the Bill
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was so
far ready that they would be able to discuss them together—if
any body on either side of the House would give a guarantee
that the House would think that Bill worth a serious
discussion—he would be ready to have the two Bills discussed
together; hut he thought it was hardly fair dealing to ask him
to put off a Bill which he had printed, and with the
sanction of a Committee of the Rouse, for the purpose of
waiting till the Hon. and Learned Member should have leisure
or inclination to draw a Bill which was not only untreated,
but which he believed was unconceived and unconeeirable.
—( Great laughter.) T'oe Noble Lord had also menti-oned
another objection whi'u he (Mr. Buller) thous ht was an
objection to the Bill. altogether, namely— that the ssreat evil
was not the ti:ourad, but the law which that- tribunal
had to adrainister. He differed from the Noble Loot].
On another point. Of course all gentlemen had certain
prejudlees in favour of their own character, "and the
Noole Lord had rather 'setter ground to stand upon than
himself, and was most likely to find favour with his au-
dience,when he said that members of Committees would decide
in a very just way if they only had a good law to decide upon,
than he ( Mr. Buller) was when he said he believed the defect
was in the composition of the tribunal. He did not say that
the Commons were composed of men who were worse than that
class of their countrymen from whom Jurors were selected ;
but what he said was from the mode in which they were
selected they could not do justice.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He ( Mr. B.) did not know why it was, but some wondrous
chan,ge had come over Hon. Members' self estimation. When
last he detailed the evils of the present system to the
House, if there were one point upon which he met a
mere general assent than another, it was the dishonesty
and incompetence of the present tribunal..—( Hear, hear.)
And he must say that whatever change his opinion had under-
gone upon other matters, he had found no reason to alter his
opinion upon this point.—( Cheers.) It was all very
well to say " We are an impartial tribunal—we administer
justice fairly ;" that was not the opinion which was
entertained of them out of doors. The parties who came
before them had not that confidence in their honour ; on the
contrary, all the parties agreed in saying that a Committee of
the House of Commons was the last tribunal from which a
man could expect justice. He had just looked to the manner
in which the papers had been discussing that question, and he had
found one o: two things which afforded a very remarkable,
though, incidental confirmation as to the dishonesty of this
tribunal. There was an article quoted from the Dublin
papers encouittein,g the subscription in support of petitions
against Irish Members, and the reason used was this : " If the
petition fund produce no other good effect it will bring so many
petitions against so many persons upon one side of the House ;"
and then they gave a list of persons who were to be petitioned
egainst. They said, " the effect of this will be not to do justice,
but to bring down the House to an equality upon there quca-
tions." (Laughter. )—That is to imevent so many Members
serving on election petitions, and to gain a majority for the other
side. The Ministerial Papers state the Ministerial majority
as so much (I doet wish to enter upon this, which is rather a
dubious point)—( Laughter)—say twenty-five : now if there
are eighteen Irish Members petitioned against, this with the
officials connected with the Government who cannot sit
on elections petitions, will give a majority to the Conservative
&ale of the !louse—( Laughter)—and then.thcre was a great
deal of preaching about the virtue, and the piety, and the
justice of the Conservatives—(continued laughter)—
showing it to be the duty of every friend of. the Constitution
to come forward and aid this fund, the object of which is to
enable the Cens.rvatives to gain a majority in election
Committees —( Laughter. ) I must admit that the papers on
our side are quite as bad.—( Laughter.) There was one very
curious instance the other day iu a Ministerial paper (I won't
mention the natee. ) Mr. Martin, of Galway, Lad paired with Mr.
Cooper, of Sligo, and the Ministerial paper began an invective
against the gentlemen of their own side, because they said,
."I'hough pairs are very gool things upon political cuestions,
it is not so upon election petitions." They said, Mr. Cooper
is, for some reason (subset.; hing to the election fund) disqualified
(but that is all nonsense) from serving upon these Committees ;
therefore, Mr. Martin has not got his pair.—( Laughte.r.)
Such was the idea the public had of both sides of the House.
He had no more reason than any other Member of that
House to attempt to betray the country of which he wait a
native —thc House of which he was a member, or the
class of gentlemen to which he belonged, but he must say that
there never was a body of persons intrusted with the Go-
vernment of a country that ever subtniated so patiently to
such grave inputations upon their honour. He must affirm
that the opinions of the country upon this point were different
from those of the Noble Lard ( Stanley), and that Whigs,
Tories and Radicals believed that the Members of
that !louse, upon judicial questions involving the
interests of the party with whom they were connected were
neither bound by honour nor oaths,—(Cries of hear, hear,
and No, no, from the Opposition side of the House.) He
would ask the Right Hon. Member for Montgomeryshire
•( Mr. Wynn) or any other honourable Member, whether
they ever heard any other opinion expressed out of
doors of this House, and it was their duty to get rid of
this imputation as speedily as possible.—(Cries of " Hear.")
He had not credited that imputation to it fullest extent—his
Bill did not make the House incapable of administeting justice,
but he had proposed that the number of Members upon election
Committees should be as small as possible, and thus the re-
ssonsibility be limited. As to appointing a permanent chairman,
that was am:Ater of detail. He thought the great cell of those
Committees was the want of knowledge of the law, aid of
practice in the adMinistration of the law ; and that by their
ignorance of legal principles members were insensibly led by
party considerations. He was not disposed to delegate the
consideration of these questions to a totally different tribunal.
He did not believe that the evil was so much in the tribunal as
in the cases themselves. Most men felt strongly upon
psiLical questions ; and he did not think a special cr a common
jury would be more likely than a Committee of that House
. .

to administer election laws impartially.—( Hear, hear. )
But he thought that a reduction of the number of Members
upon Committees was a very important point, as it increased
their responsibility, and upon this point he begged to have the
support of the Right lion. Member for Tamworth, who had
repeatedly on former occasions expressed himself in favour of
this principle. Another suggestion made by the lion. Mem-
ber for Lancaster was the substitution of challenging for
striking. This might be thought a slight alteration, but it would
have this c fleet, that instead of persons being permitted to pick
and choose the five Members most favourable to their own side,
they would be compelled to make their challenge when the
name tires first read, and before they knew what names were
to follow ; and he thought the ultimate result of this would
be to prevent the Committees from becoming, as they now
too frequently were, party tribunals.--( Hear, hear.) The
fourth improvement he proposed was the giving publicity to
the proceedings of the Committee.—(Cheers.) He pro-
posed that the votes of Members given upon every resolution
should not only be put upon record, but should be read by the
Chairman immediately upon the admission of the public,
as he thought the adoption of that course would ensure all
that was required.--( Cheers.) Another considerable altera-
tion was as to the law of costs. Now, with respect to
that, he should propose to give a power to the assessors to
regulate the law of costs, until some regular rule was adopted.
The last alteration was one which he was happy to say the
Noble Lord opposite bad given his highest sanction to. It
was in fact the most important alteration of the whole,
namely, the establishment of the Court of Appeal from
the decision of the assessors. He would wish to make that
the highest tribunal, and for that purpose lie should propose
that three arsesors should sit to hear appeals from the revising
Barrister in the same eay as the Court of Queen's. Bench
sat to hear appeals from the decisions of the Magistrates. He
would propose that no person should have a double appeal, so that
after the Court of appeal had decided the case they could not
refer to the House of Commons. He hoped the House would
excuse the length to which he had addressed them, his excuse
being, that he had no previous opportunity of explaining tho
details of what, he must confess, was a somewhat complicated
measure. —(llcar, hear.) He knew his plan was objected to
by many who said that it did not go far enough, that it was
incomplete, that it did not remove the whole evil. He
admitted that such might be the case. He was aware
that there were a great many evils in the present sys-
tem which his Bill did not remove ; but it did not,
at all events, agravate any of them ; so far as it went
it proceeded in the right direction.—(Hear, hear.) He Legged
the House would bear in mind that he proposed this plan
rather as the machinery for effectiner future reforms than as
a reform complete in itself.—(Elear,.hear.) He would say,
let no Honourable Member obstruct the speedy passing of the
Bill ; it was not a party measure; it was a measure, the ne-
cessity of which the House ought to feel, if it were only in vin.
dication of its own character.—( Cheers.)
Mr. C. W. WYNN said, in his judgment they ought not
to proceed with one of these Bills without having the other
before them in such a state as to be able to institute a com-
parison between the two.*—(Hear, hear.) He was not pre.
pared to say how far he could give his sanction to either of
the plans . but he thought that the Hon. and Learned Mem-
her for Dublin hating obtained leave to introduce his Bill,
till it was introduced, and he had had an opportunity of ex-
plaining its nature, it would not be just towards him, neither
would it be consistent with the usual character of their pro.
ceedings, for the House to come to a decision either for the
adoption or rejection of either of the measures. On that
r o toi
.v theirbupor-
tions
ground, independently of any opinion that he might "form
of the Bills themselves, ho shouuldasdereeidaed uedy.lyobject
proceeding to the second reading of the Honourable and
Learned
o f the
Gentleman's
which ineasurilee. There.
rteoce concur;
it appeared to him that they were beginning
ht the wrong
end. Their first object ought to be to remove the ambi.
guitics of the old law of election._.( near.) There was one
remark made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman from
which he altogether
dissented, H i e decidedly differed from
him when he Said that such was the opinion of the country of
the preilietacy characterising the conduct of Hon. Members on
F.,lection Committees that it was believed they were bound
neither b the dictates of honour, nor the obligation of their
oaths, He declared on his honour that he believed any such .
ltilputation to be most unfounded, and that it was not true that
such an opinion prevailed. Sonic of the Committees had come
to different decisions, it must be admitted ; but it would
be the case that intelligent men would entertain 0 to
variance with each other on points of law. For ex
wad, the case of the opening of the Irish registeati . 14.1,
his opinion on that subleet, but he thought that the vert
fairly entertain an opinion on it different from his
was a question which, of all others, he thought n;t equirect‘p!'
to be put to rest by a declaratory Act.—( Hear, a heae;r7
He did not think the present tribunal too large. Alelletr4l,44c._
could not allow the judge of a court of common lr/C,
.1,64r0:
"tv
‘..4

~~v\\
\,+f

*ants of Parliamentary law ; there was a very great difference
between the common law and the lea non scripta of Parlia-
ment. According to the law of Parliament the judges ought
not to be called on to decide any question of Parliamentary
law,_ nor according to an old dictum of their own ought they
to be. Fur instance, as regarded the right of Peers to vote :
that was a question that ought not to be put to the judges "fur
their decision, and if it were they ought to refuse to answeWit.
But he took the preliminary objection to their proceeding
further with this Bill they had two plans before them, .ene
-being incompatible with the other, and before they decided on
endeavouring to render either perfect, let them see and judge
of both.—( )Aear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said the -Hon. Gentleman who bad
just sat down had made a mistake when he said there were
two Bills before the House: there was but one. It was
true he got leave. of the House to bring in another, hut he
would state the course that he bad intended to pursue. He
proposed to put his Bill upon the table of the House, and to
have it printed by the commencement of the recess,
so as to be in the hands of Honourable Members
during that recess. He did not mean to proceed further
with it till it had passed through a Committee, and then he
would decide whether he would press it on the House or net.
He not, saw that he interrupted the present Bill by hero-
duchies his ateeill, and having satisfied himself as to that; he
should move that the order for leave to him to bring in his
Bill be discharged.—(Hear, hear.) Let them discuss the Bill
before them on its own merits, and not with refereece to any
other.—( Hear, hear.) As tl:e pi ieciple of this Bill, and not its
details, was under their consideration, tie begged to submit
to the House whether it was not- necessary that something
should be done. When the Hosourable Gentl• man oppo-
site told them on his word and honour he .did not be-
lieve that the public were so dissatisfied with the Committees
of that House—he must admit, though, that the Honour-
able Gentleman did not go quite to that extent; that war a
little too far—(Hear, hear, hear,)—and he had no wish
to misrepresent him—when, however, the Ilonourable Gen-
tleman declared on his word of honour that he did not be-
lieve the country entertained so bad an opinion of the House
as had been stated, he fully believed that such was the be-
lief which the Honourable Gentleman entertained ; but he
must also express it as his opinion, that the public were
greatly dissatisfied with the decision of the Election Corn-
mittees•of the House.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was rather an
unhappy- and unfortunate circumstance that they must ad-
mit that When a petition was sent down to them for trial
there was immediately a very active canvass on each aide.,
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It was true that when men
asked him to attend the Ballot they did not say to him, " Pray
go down to the House of Commons, ready to perjure yourself
on the committee." Oh, no ; but what they said was, " Pray
go down to the House, that you may prevent the Tories from
pressing themselves on the Committee."—( Great laughter,
and cries of " Hear.") And did not they (the Opposition)
say that on their. side ?—(Hear, and a laugh.) When the
whipper-in went to them and pressed them to come down, did
he say, " Come down, that you may be on the Committee,
and, no matter what the evidence, decide against the indivi-
dual petitioned against, because he belongs to the opposite
party ?" No such thing. But what he did say was," Go
down, or the Reformers or Radicals will decide everything ;
they will not care for their oaths ; they will perjure them-
selves and set at nought every moral obligation, in order to
cause a decision in favour of their party." The truth was,
they accused each other, and he believed that the public ac-
cused thorn both.—( Cheers.) It was notorious that when a
Committee were to be ballottcd for each side was anxious to
get upon the Committee a majority of individuals belonging
to their party. Did they not know that] it was com-
monly said by one side or the other, when the par-
ties went from the bar, " They have no chance—we have
beaten them—we have settled them now—there . are
seven to four; or there are six to five ; they will appoint their
Chairman, their Chairman has a double vote—they have not
the least chance."—( Laughter.) Counsel had 'predicted
thus, and their predictions had been verified by the event.
Now, was this creditable to the House ?—(Cheers.) They
might delude themselves by the speeches they made there on
the subject, but the public knew what the fact was, and the
public condemned them all. In the case of Carlow alone
there had been three different decisions by three different
Committees on the question of opening the register. The
first settled that the register should not be opened ; eleven
Hon. Members on their oaths decided that. Eleven non.
Members, on another Committee, decided 'On their oaths that
the same register should be opened. It was thought now that
the possible differences between the Committees were ex-
hausted ; but it was not set—(A laugh)—.there was a third
Committee, and they decided on their oaths that the register
should be opened partially ; they decided that whenever it
could be shown that an objection was taken below at the time
of the registry, it might be opened so far. What was the con-
sequence ? The Reformers had been unwilling to object to
the first registry, from a wish to have the registration as gene-
ral as possible ; and thus not having objected to the first re-
gistry, the Tories had a great and decided advantage, forthey
were able to strike off whom they pleased, and the Opposition
party wero able to strike off—none. In this instance, there
were two directly opposing decisions, and one that was worse
than either of the two. Now, he put it to the House, would
they have legal assistance or not ? The Honourable and
Learned Gentlemen referred to the case of O'Dwyer, in
which the Committee decided against the opinion of Lord
Redesdale. He proceeded to say that he cast no imputations
on the House ; but ought they to be subject to such imputa-
tions from any quarter ? There had been no Committee of
the kind of which he was speaking appointed in that House ;
but he would not conceal from them that he should not have
expected justice from an Election Committee of the last Par-
liament. Two seats had • been decided against by Commit-
tees of the last Parii,onent en the presumption that a min
owed a tax because he was liable to it. el A.vote was objected
'to on the ground that the tax had not been paid ; the ob-
jectors were not, able td show that the man was in arrear.
The books were produced, and his name were not on them ;
but because he resided in the street it was presumed that the
tax was not paid. This was a monstrous case, but lie could
tell the House it was that decision which unseated him. He,
then, asked them again, would they have no legal assistance ?
Was that sucha state of things as ought to be allowed to con-
tinue? (Hear, hear.) To such an extent was the objection-
able system carried that he had heard Honourable Gentlemen
reproached for having given certain votes in Committees of
which they were members. What, then, was public opinion upon
thesubject? He was ready to tell them. He should reed for them
*passage from a public newspaper—he meant to read it as part of
his speech. The passage lie referred to was written in allusion
to the plaw of the Hon. Member for Liskeard ; it expressed
the conviction of the writer as to what the effect of the Bill
would be. The writer said, " Thus this alteration would not
put an end to what the writer of the article in the Law Mmga.
zine tenderly cads 'trifling with oaths.' " Did the llnuse
mark the expression "trifling with oaths ?"—( Hear, hear.)
Ile had heard that House before the Reform Bill became law
called " the noblest assembly of freemen in the world." He
hoped the House had still sore high feeling left ; and yet
did they mark what a law-writer—what one who it was sup-
posed by hie profession happened to know something of the,
working of their Committees—'enderly named "trifling with
oaths ?"—( Hear, hear.) Was there a man amongst them
who would trifle with his oath ? Was there a men amongst
them who would not say it was false that he trifled with his
oath ? The writer said, " The Law Magazine tenderly calls
trifling. with oaths,' but which, in our te.inion, amounts to a
much higher crime. We. alluded cursorily the other day to
this part of ties subject, and to the different condition of judges
arid witnesses, although each under the obligation of an oath.
The members of a Committee have often sent witnesses to
Newgate for giving false evidence, while they themselves, by
their decision, have shown that they were utterly regardlcsi of
their own oaths, and careless whether the evidence were
false or true." Thu -was the lenguage .of the Morming
Chroi iele with regard to the decisions of their Cem-
snittees,and to the regard paid by them to their oaths.—( Hear.)
It proceeded to say„" With regard to the assessors, Who, by
Mr. C. Buller's Bill, are to preside, and to determine points
of law without the power of voting, we by no means think, if
they could be found and appointed, that the result would cor-
respond with the expectations of the framer of the measure.
The opinion of the assessor, however well founded, would have
but little weight with men who had made up their minds to
forswear themselves from party motives; and we cannot help
believing that the rights/A' petitioners and respondents (if we
may so call them) would be even safer in the hands of men
bound by their honour to determine fairly and impartially, than
bound by their oaths At ad events, it is quite clear that
oaths have been and arc of no avail. To violate honour might
have a serious effect upon gentlemen in their intercourse with
society; hut we see plainly, that the avowed breach of a
solemn oath on an Election Cenimittee entails no inconvenience
or disgrace." That was the language of the Morning Chronicle
of the 3d of • November.— ( Cheers from the MeMbers of the
Opposition benches ) They cheered those opinions ! Were
they satisfied a ith the truth of what the Morning Chronicle said
of them ?—( Cheers from Members on tire Mini,:terial benches.)
They cheered a party paper. because it publicly accused them
of %iolating their oaths ! They cheered that I It' such were
their carelessness and such the'r indifference with respect to
the imputation—if it.was only because it was said in a party
paper that they were regardless of it, then he saint, God help
those alto had to come before them for a decision.—( Cheers
from Ministerial Members.) Did they not remember that
when a ilea sniper asserted this. itevas expected that its resders
would believe the assertion? But did not lion. Gentlemen
Opposite see what their own newspapers stated with r, gard to
them? lied he not reed in the Standard a demand upon the
hieeriews of its ewe party to be diligent in attending upon the
baliots ter Glee ion petitisres, as " :he old Whigs never at-
tended ?" What was expected from this ? Did it not "argue a
-coregool conclusion equally with the Morning Chronicle?—
( Lisa-, hear.) It had conic to this, that thevwlin, it was to
be eepected, 'ware ta set at.: eeample of high' moralise to the
country--they vole were to be regarded as men of the
highest tolieur, were now so lost to feeling as to be re-
gardlese. of theeueeervance of the most solemn ohlieation
( Hear, hear.) The Hoeee was quite aware that at - this mo.
went the striking of a Memboe from one side or the other
eves an object of the greatest importance. The fate. of Ens-
land, of one-third of the empire—the fate of :7elan.l, and hoW
it was to be pvereed„the appeintment to the higheet offices
in the State, all depended upon the majority in that House.—
(Hear, hear.) This Bill did not, in his opinion, go far
enough; but it gave them at least one protection, filet of a
single impartial person--it also gave them publicity, which was
another security at least. There was no man, be was sure,
ram heard him who was not convinced that a worse species
tri:sunal to decide rights than their Election Committees there
eeutel not be.--( Hear, hear.)
Sir ,EDWARD S UG D E N was surprised at the course
Pursued by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He
bad giver? credit to that Hon. and Learned Member at taus
moment that ;re had learned that it was his intention to have
ntroduced a BiliPf which 11,.; had given notice. Not only had

the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, altered the...title of.his Bill,
so that it might-proceed with the Bill of the Hon. Member fdr .
Liskeard, but in so doing the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin had declared his opinion that the propoSition of the
Hon. Member for Liskeard could not lalt adopted._- ( Hear.)
He understood the Hon. and Learned Member fOr Dublin to
exoress as strongly against tlto Bill of the Hen. Member for
Liskeard, perhaps not in uncou: teous terms, but .still as
strongly, as ane Member could speak against the proposition
f another. —( Hear.): Now, however, the same Hon. and
Learned Member said—let this Bill go through CommitteJ,
and- then he would b..ing in his own Bill. After the principle
of the present Bill had received the sanction of the House,
and' after they had gorse into Committee upon it, the House
could not be called upon to adopt a Bill different from it in
principle, and -one especially that was directly .opilosed to
the preseet measure. Both Bills had the same object, th .t of
ameliorating the present mode of trials in controverted elec-
tions. The Hon. and Learned Gentlernan'asstimed that his
( Sir E. Sugdee's) side of the House wished to give an unge-
nerous opposition to that improvement. He believed, on the
contrary; that the feeling upon his side of the Horse was to
make, by the best and most proper means, that tribun 11 to
r,tand well with the country. He had hard with feelings of
the most unmixed horror that, instead of the decisions' of the
Members of the Legislature being influenced by fair and ho-
nourable feelings, epithets were applied to them of a charac-
ter which, if they were deservedly applied. he should feel the
deepest pain and degradation in having entered into. the !louse.
With respect to this point. the Hon.. and Learned MeMber
for Dublin, he must say, had done that side of the HMISe as
great injustice as man possibly could be guilty of. That lion.
and Learned Member had read a most offensive paragraph—
( Hear, fern the Opposition Members)—a most libellous pare-
gragh--( Hear, from the Opposition Members)—which had ap-
peared in a daily print, and which was supposed to be in the con-
fidence and the interests of her Majest>'s Ministers. In that
libel, which the Hon. and Learned Member read as part of his
speech—in that libellous matter, in which all sides cf the
house were disgraced—the Hon. and Learned Member might
have known, when it' was read, what was signified by the cheers
of his (Sir E. Sngdcn's) friends around him. Did not the
Hon. and Learned Member know what that cheer meant ? It

expresircl as Olin as language their disgust.—(Cheers from
the Opposi,ion. Members.) They cheered in the face of that
House and the country, because they felt that they were not
open to that libel.—( Cries of " Oh, oh, oh," and cheers.)
That was what the cheer meant.—( Cries of " Oh, oh, oh.")
What 1 did they on the other side cheer a statement which wz s
a libel on their honour, and which they must feel levelled them
with the dust ? Did they cheer or approve of that ? Upon
hi; side of the House t ie, disclaimed such an imputation. He
then proceeded to obtei Ire that he did not oppose the second
reading of the Bill ; he only required it to be postponed. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin objected to this Bill
as it was the same, to all intents and purposes as the former
Bill. Instead of eleven Members this Bill proposed five ; but
would five be more bound by their oaths and honour than
eleven, or would there be Mo-e safety in the smaller than the
larger number ? Then, with respect to the appointment of
Assessors—three were to be named by the Speaker. The
salary was 2,0001. a year, and for this there would not be a
barrister of seven years' standing but of practice who would
not be a candidate. The appointment, then, would be the
subject of intrigue. They knew in the chair the Speaker was
of no politics, but out of the chair he was an English gentle-
man, and belonged to his party. Might not party feeling,
then, enter into the nomination, and might not the House de-
bate whether they would appoint John, Thomas, or William,
named by the Speaker? And if they were rejected, the
House would have to nominate three more. The nomination
was to take place every session. In that case would a gentle-
man in practice abandon it to become an assessor, when the
next year he might lose his situation of assessor, and his prac-
tice be also gone from him? He felt bound to support the
motion of the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG concurred in the objections stated by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin respecting the
character of the tribunals before which controverted elec-
tions were to be tried. He wished, however, in doing
so, to refer to a statement made by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman respecting a Committee to which he bad
belonged. That Committee was presumed to have given an
opinion adverse to the franchise, by assuming that a voter had
not paid his rates, his name not appearing in the rate-book,
and he living in the street that had been rated, and that in
consequence of such vote, the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber had lost his election. That was the first opportunity he
had of referring face to face to the statements of the Honoura-
ble and Learned Member who had frequently abused him in
his absence, and he now declared that Honourable Member,
he would not say dared not—because he had seen how much
he dared—( Order, order l)
The SPEAKER' called the Honourable Member to order.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG continued by saying, that the Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman had cast an imputation upon
him from which he should not condescend to vindicate himself;
he did so only on the part of the Committee ; and he declar-
ed on the part of that Committee, that never was there a
Committee more free from party bias than the very Commit-
tee to which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had
referred.

Mr. O'CONNELL explained. It was not upon the deci-
sion of one vote, but of a class of voters, he had been unseated
by the Committee be bad referred to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL owned that there appeared
to him to be grounds favourable to the second reading
of this Bill.—( Hear.) It was the result of the labours
of a Committee that had given great attention to the
eubject; and he observed in the records of the House,
as to the labours of that Committee, that on the subjects
submitted to them, on which it was to be supposed there
had been a great deal of a•gument, there had been riot less than
twenty-one divisions in the Committee. These had all taken
place upon various points, and each of them the most impor-
tant as connected with the principles of the Bill. He bad
read over the names of the Gentlemen who generally appeared
upon the one side and upon the other, and to show the House
the mariner in which these divisions generally took place, he
should take the division upon the question -for the nomination
of the assessors during good behaviour. The names upon the
one side were Mr. Hardy and Mr. Pemberton ' • and upon the
ether Mr. C. NV,Wpn, Mr. Strutt,SirThomasFremantle,Mr.
Grote, Mr. -.Villiers, and Lord George Somerset. These divi-
sions were not to be courted by differ cot political parties; but
persons of' the same political parties were to be found Toting
against each other. This he thought was, looking to the
names of the persons, a proof that they might have been safely
entrusted with the preparing of what was a difficult measure.—
( Hear.) They had, then, the recommendation of a Select
Committee for this Bill ; and they were also aware that in the
last Parliament it had been read a second time without a
divi-
sion. He said, then, that these were peculiarly favourable
grounds for their granting a second reading, arid so far sanc-
tioning the principle of the Bill.—(Hear. ) But then the
Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman who followed him
objected, in the first place, that the Honourable and Learned
Member for Dublin had obtained leave to bring in a Bill of
a different character, and which tended to the same object ;
and that Bill they insisted ought to be printed before they as-
sented to the principle of this Bill. The Noble Lord, he thought,
placed too much reliance upon the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin—(Laughter)—and upon his intention of proceed-
ing with a Bill which he had not yet printed. That reliance,
indeed, was followed up by a declaration from the Noble Lord
that he had rather not have such a Bill at all. The whole ar-
gument, then, which wss thus built upon sank to the ground.
If they were to have two Bills founded upon different prin-
ciples, and if it wereintended to proceed with both, then there
alight be an adjournment for a few drys. But he did not see
why they could a Mr propriety postpone the Bill to the I 2fla of
February ; although it might be proper to delay it for a few
day!. The Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin
said that he was not prepared with his Bill, and that he
would not he prepared with it for some time. Under such
circumstances, then, he considered it but fair to a Bill which
had received the sanction of a Committee, and which was
also sanctioned by a former House of Commons, and in-
which the only object a,nd the only question was, wht taper
they would sanction a Bill having for its principle the amend-
ment of their Electi, it Committees—it was under such cir-
temstances, he repeated, but lair to allow such a Bill to pre-
eeed to a second reading. His opinion upon the whole was,
that the best course fur the House to adopt was not to change
the nature of the tribunsl; but he did think that late decisions
upon controverted elections had given so much dissatisfaction
that it was not thought that fair decisions had been given. He
had not attended generally for the last year or two to thg
lots upon Election Committees, bet.it happened, he was told,
that upon some occasions, when two or' three Members'
names were read from the ballot list, that a cheer was givet
from that side of the House on which the Members usually
se. Was not this declaring tint the persons who ao cheered
regarded those persons to be choir-se, not as impartial judges
hear)—but a.s a partisan jury? He had been asked
last year to adopt a. irlt re-pect to these elections the same
course which was followed upon party questions, that of send-
ing out notices. Ile declined doing so, as he said it was an
improper pactic,. But then the argument used to him was
that ei which the lloneurable and .Learned Member for Dub-
lin had referred, "that the other side of the House did the
same." He did not know that this was the practice on the
other side, he did not know it to be the practice. ul.on him
own. But when there was so much jealousy about the
names of adverse parties being on a Committee, it eves a
sufficient proof that the decisions of the Committees would
be party decisions.—( Hear.) A part, a great part of this
feeling had arisen from the uncertainty, but more especially
from the uncertainty respecting the right of -voting in In.-
bur. This had ben the case with two cr three Election
Committees, and with the Longford Committee in particular,
where, he believed, this was the chief point in dispute. Now,
without the imputation of intent:onal p. rjury to any side, where
there was a question of intricate law. and upon which some
of the I.:sh judges differed front other Irish judges, al:d where 1
there w. re other questions not legal but intricate, party
would influence the decisions upon them. They had now to
see whether the Bill of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Liskeard remedied the evils of which they complained. He
thought it was bad to have a great number of Members on
such a Committee. The Right Hon, Gentleman who had
introduced the last Bill upon this subject, tire 9th Geo. IV.,
had, instead of 41, reduced the number to be selected to 33
names. Presiotse to that the constant custom was, when a
great number of names eveee :;ruck off by each party—he did

not know, tht the piactice still continued,,lut then it was
called ,hiploskinz the brains out of a Committee.”---(l,a4gh!er. )
It was the. very %:45, to spoil the tribunal which they wished
to have named, lie had. rather have a Committee chosen
by that Houso, and composol of lirop6r persons, than that
each party should have the power of striking OE names,
Ha had rather himse:f, if he had to defend his seat, have a
person of the opposite side of politics who knew all the
questions that could be discussed before him, than a person
ctf bis own yi4po9 was ignorant of them. He was crite

sure that what. wee called . perjury depended not le such
cases upon the corruption hut- the ignorance of the party.
With respect to another point, namely, the appointment of
assessors to attend Committees, be thought that this likee
wise would tend to make Committees act with greater jus-
tice, and w;th more delioeration ; but what he looked to
above all in this Bill, and vihrtt he thought would tend to
produce good effects both-with respect to the Election Corn-
niitteea and the legislation .on the subject wai, that there
should_ be a eerta.'n number of persons of fit
who should form a re7marint judicial body, ready to gee
their opinion,- and the substance of their deliberations, ea-to:-
4.110 r to the Election Committees, or to the House of Com-
e:rens, -or whether in the course of registration noon aay
election which should call for it. But he did net at
present,. certainly, and without much farther considertei
and v ithout seeing that the evils which the present system
produced were wthout any other remedy, that that • House
should lose or part with the power of deciding these
questions by Members chosen from amongst themselves-
But he thought that the great evil which affected those who
had seats in that House which were celled in .question, and
wiliest) affected every voter who came before the revising bar-
rister, and which, indeed, affected the whole couutry, was the
uncertainty that prevailed . at present.—( Hear.)
Lot allow all disputes arising out of elections to go into accooulrt
of law, and very properly, as he thought; because the judges
who had to decide upon all questions relative to the properties
and lives of her Majesty's subjects were now supposed to be ac-
tuated by no political bias; but if they refer to the constituted
tribunal of the judges those questions of a political nature,
whatever their decisions may be, they would be liable to im-
putations from one side or the other.—( Hear, hear.) As,
then, they could not part with the power themselves and
give it to the judicial tribunals already constituted, the next
thing that occurred to him as most likely to improlie the
present tribunals was, that there should be a certain number
of men, of legal knowledge and judicial habits, who should
form a permanent body to decide such questions as should
come before them. The Noble Lord opposite (Lard Stanley)
said that there ought to be a Committee of the House of
Commons appointed to declare what the law was upon
these questions. Now he (Lord • Jobn Russell) must
say that he should not entertain much hope from such a Com-
mittee—( Hear, la ar)—because, if Committees now decided
with a certain bias with respect to what the law was a'. present,
he was quite sure that a Committee would decide with a bias
when it hid to interpret what the law should be in future.—
( Hear, hear.) ,They hadfound this already with respect to
the Registration Bills, and therefore he thought that where a
doubtful point arose, and a Committee had to clear that doubt,
the Members would. say to themselves, " As_we have to clear
this doubt in future; let us not proceed according to our notions
of what the practice should be, but let the doubt be cleared in
a manner favourable to our own party." That would also be
the opinion of the other party, and they would therefore have
the same difficulty in passing a Bill through the House which
should obtain the assent of 'either party, as they had now.
Therefore, upon the whole, be thought that there was no suffi-
cient, reason for not agreeing to the second reading of the
8i11..5-(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL said that the question was not whether they
would consent to any improvement of the present system by
which Election Committees were constituted ; the question
was cot whether they would consent to the principle of this
Bill ; but the simple question was, whether on that day the
House of Commons was sufficiently prepared, by mature de-
liberation on the subject, to affirm the important principle in-
volved in the, Bill. That House of Commons contained 150
new Members, the attention of not one of whom had been pro-
bably directed to the question now before them. The Bill was
only printed on Saturday, and it was, he believed, delivered to
many Members that very day ; so that there could have been
no opportunity-of perusing it till the very next day; and he
should like to know how many Members present had read
the Bill upon which they were then called upon to decide ?
He would not place much dependence upon the fact whether
they had read the Bill or- not, because the Bill itself was
so full of blunders, that if they had read it, it would afford
no assistance.—( Hear, hear, and. a laugh.) What could
be inferred from the following passage :—" If it shall be
found that there are not ono hundred Members present, or
that the number of thirty-three Meinbers, not set aside or
excused, cannot be completed, it shall and may be lawful for
the House, if it think fit, to direct that the said order shall be
adjourned for any number of days." Now what had the House to
do with these thirty-three Members ?—( Mr. C. Buller :
" That is a blunder I"—A laugh.) Here, then, was a Bill
printed on Saturday, delivered on Monday, which was per-
fectly unintelligible on account of the great hurry with which
it was printed, which was admitted to be unintelligible by its
mover, Mr. C. Buller, as far as the number thirty-three is
concerned. Let it be so ; but under these circumstances they
were called upon to affirm the principle of the Bill —( Hear,
hear. )- Whatever they might do in this respect let it be done
after mature deliberation.—( Hear, hear.) But the real ques-
tion—a question which had not been referred to—was this, did
they mean to apply the new tribunal to existing Election Peti-
tions ?—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) This was the
real question which was involved in this measure.—( Cheers
from the Opposition, re-echoed from the Ministerial Benches.)
He found the following sentence introduced into the face
of the Bill, and he should like to know whether
it was another blunder ? It was this :5e..." And be it en-
acted that this Act shall commence and take effect from and
after the last day of the present Session of Parliament."
Her© was a eistinet manifestation of the intention
of the author of the Bill that the Bill should not take effect
until aft, r the present Election Committees should be dis-
posed of.—( Cheers.) If this were the case, where was the
necessity of such precipitation ?—( Loud cheers from the Op-
position.) If it were really intended that all existing Elec-
tion Committees should be appointed under the existing laws,
unless for some extraordinary and special contingency, in re-
spect of which the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord J. Russell)
had reserved himself—( A laugh)—if it were intended that all
election petitions now pending should be tried by pre-existing
tribunals, where was the necessity of calling upon the House
of Commons to assert that the present mode was so inconve-
nient, that they must affirm the principle of a new tribunal
within two days after the Bill had been printed and put into
their hansls ?—( Cheers.) Ile tare credit to the Hun. Mover
of the Bill for good intentions ; ho believed that the lion.
Gentleman sincerely meant what the last clause of the Bill
contained—viz., that the Bill should net take effect until after
the present session of Parliament, and that it shotild not,
with respect to existing petitions, supersede the existing tri-
bunals ; but he begged to remind that Hon. Gentleman, that
if a majority of the House were so inclined, there was nothing
so easy as, in passing through Committee on the Bill, to
strike out the two lines at the end of it, and thus leave the
election petitions to be tried by the tribunals constituted by
the present Bill, and thereby to give it an ex post facto
operation.—(Loud cheers.) They would, doubtless, have
the assistance of the Honourable Mover of the Bill in re-
sisting such -a proposition—a proposition fraught, as he con-
sidered it, with the grossest injustice.—(.Loud cheers from
the Opposition.) They might depend upon it, that what-
ever objections there might be to the existing tribunals,
yet if the country understood that that House of Commons
meant to postpone what had hitherto been considered their
first and most positive duty on the assembling of a new
Parliament, namel;, to determine who of the sitting Mem-
bers were duly elected, and who of the sitting Members re-
tained their seats against the intention of the law in that
House, the country would not approve of the House of Com-
mons in thus gising the Act of Parliament an ex past facto
operation —(Cheers.) The main question, therefore, was
whether or not the new tribune] was, in point of fact, to
supelsede the existing law, and to have the. election peti-
tions referred to it? On Wednesday, the 6th of December,
the Noble Lord opposite pronsi;ed to deliver an opinion deci-
sively upon this point. They would know the opinion of Go-
vernment on the 6th of December, and lie, for one, would not
consent to the second reedit'g of this Bill until that declaration
was made on the part of Government.—( Loud cheers from
the Opposition.) If he wanted any other reason, the speech
of the Hon. and Learned Member for• Dublin was, he thought,
deeisive against proc cling with the Bill. The Noble Lord
opposite said th a the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
had cut sway from his Noble Friend ( Lord Stanley) the whole
ground upon whi, h he objected to this Bill. As far as the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was personally con-
cerned, es far 'ye concerned his personal wishes and feelings ie
the matter, there could be' no doubt but that that Hon. and
Learned Member, greatly to his (Sir R. Peel's) surprise, did
waive h s personal wishes and feelings ; but, as far as the ar-
guments and reasoning of the Hon. and Learned Member
were concerns', they remained with undiminished force..
If they consented to the second reading of the Bill it would
mns,
not directly
imply that the House of Commons ought to retain the juris-
diction in election matters in their own hands. Now he
would not hesitate to say, that if he thought that the House
of COmmons deserved the character which he hail heard given
to it by those who were the most anxious for a reform, be
should have desired that the jurisdiction might be trans-
ferred from the House of Commons, and he would have con-
curred in the principle laid down by the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dablin. If the Members of that
House were so influenced by party feeling that they were
not fit to decide questions that arose upon Election Com-
mittees under the tribunals as they were at present 'con-
stituted, they surely would not be fit to decide them under
the tribunal -propteted by the lioncurable and Learned Mein
her fur Liskeard. That Honourable and Learned Member
said that this was a bit by bit Reform, that lie was proceeding
very gradually, that he wanted'to have as little reform as poi-
sible. The Hon. and Learned Member fur Dublin, on the
other hand, denied that the House of Commons was a fit tri-
bunal, or of a character sufficiently impartial to fit it for the.
-consi 'oration of these questions, aid therefore he wished to
i, thi ci t
objections lishtiob to
l d
have them transferred another tribunal. lie Was surprised,
after the position thus laid dosn by the Hon, and Learned
Member for Dublin respecting the character of the lioase of
Commons, and the inferences thus d• awn by m
cement to the second re cling of this Bill.
which applied to the existing tribunals would apply e la
the tribunals constituted by the present Bill. It they could
get an impartial tribunal of five or seven pe
itaerested in the election petitions, he was convinced that the
House of Commons would lose nothing by the transference of
the power of deciding in such cases to a body so uonatituted.
The great difficulty was as to the mode of selection. It must
be admitted that they mug be selected by some body. If it
were left to the Government it would be open to strong ob-
jections, the great objection being the difficulty of constituting
nn impartial arid a satisfactory tribunal. To the appointment
of slesessors by the Speaker he would decidedly object.
best inten_
satisfactory
could not coneaiye any proposition tending more to destroy the
impartial character of the chair.-e-( Hear, a Ije was afraid thatitti
o%nvso,ultdo bne!4ki Bible
which
psse.aoliuctir
ls?rsei ths a
otsh
to fallel
pa'ties. • • ft would by a Speaker of a new Parliament
wou placing
_, s
in a most unpleasant situation. sse Mitt no; affirm this pries.
ciplo of the 1.341, It aproared to him to be a very grave sees,

and he -.could much rather not giv, I
decisiVelY
upon files.° pants. He would• also much rather reserve to
himself a fair opportunity for a full consideration relative to
his views of the challenges prlposed to be allowed; It was
possible that the right cf challenge where five challenges were
made, would be to insure the knocking out the Crains of
the Committee. No..v he (Sir Robert Peel) was not sure
that it would not lead to a directly opposite result. Opposing
parties, on hearing a certain number of names called, might
be in doubt whether or not they should exhaust their chal-
lenges by objecting to the names called, or whether they
should not wait for a better challenge. This would at once
be the introduction of the element of chance into 'the new
tribunal. The objection to the present system waS; that it
was ialluenced by party motives, and that the Members were
selected by chance ; but it was evident that the. same objec-
tion applied to the new tribunal. He had never read the Bill
tid he came into the House. The Noble Lord opposite ( Lord
J. Russell) said that the Bill had passed through the second
reading last session. New he would ask was this fair? H.
admitted that it did pass the second reading, but it was dis-
. tinctly understood that the Bill should not pass into a law.—
(No, from the Ministerial benches.) He Was sure that
was the general impresSiOn.—(No, no, from Lord Howick.)
He thought that an objection was taken by the Attorney-Ge-
neral to proceeding further with the Bill.—( No, no,
from the Attorney-General.) He 'could not refer to the
speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman.- ile trusted
to memory, and that was his impression. If, then, *there was
a general feeling on the part of the -House that.the present
tribual was so unsatisfactory that it required amendment,
but that those amendment: should be applied after mature
deliberation—if the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber for Liskeard really desired that they should not look upon
this question as a party measure, but that it should be gravely
and deliberately discussed ; above all, if Hon. Geotlemen
wished that this question should receive a calm consideration,
if they wished maturely to consider the transferring of their
power, as far as their jurisdiction was concerned, to somebody
impartially selected, with the consent of the House of Com-

mons, he hoped they would all concur in deferring the
second reading of this Bill. He asked the lion. and Learned
Member for Liskeard himself to postpone the 13.11 until the'
[louse had an opportunity of giving it further consideration.
Above all, be hoped those Members of the House of Commons
who were now called upon to exercise their functions for the
first time would refuse to pledge themselves to affirm the prin-
ciple of this Bill on that night, and that, on the contrary; they
would support the proposition of his Noble Friend, which was
not that the present system should not be amended, not that
the Bill should be rejected, but merely that there should be a
delay of two months interposed, in order that public attention

having been drawn to the subject during tho recess, old
Members and new Members might be enabled to apply them-
selves to the subject with more caution and deliberation, thus
affording a better prospect of their arriving at a conclusion
upon principles satisfactory to themselves and the country.
Lord PALMER STON did not think the reasons assigned
by the Right Honourable Baronet • for the proposed delay
appeared to him at all satisfactory.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He quite agreed with the Right Honourable Baronet that it
was most desirable that whatever the House did upon this
subject should be done with calmness and the absence of
all party feeling.—(flear, hear.) The object the Bill had
in view was to relieve the. House from an impression existing
in the public mind affecting the votes of that House, in
which, therefore, they had all common interest. It appeared
to him impossible to deny that the present mode- of decid-
ing upon the Election Petitions was not such as was satisfac-
tory to that House-or the country—(Hear, hear)—therefore,
as far a; they were called upon by reading this Bill a second
time to affirm the principle that some change should be
made, he, for one, was perfectly prepared to affirm that
principle, and he called upon the House to declare itself of
the same opinion. The principle involved in the second
reading of the Bill was, that some change was desirable,
and that it was expedient, in the first place, to att,mpt to
make such a charge as should reserve, R 3 far as possible, to
the House of Commons itself jurisdiction over those ques-
tions. If he understood the Right Honourable Baronet
correctly, he thought he seemed not altogether ' in-
disposed to the constitution of some tribunal different
from the House of Commons to ,which these ques-
tioneshould be referred. He (Lord Palmerston) thought
that the House ought to pause before they proceeded to that
extent. He was prepared in the second place to affirm the
other principle which the second reading of the Bill carried
with it, namely, that they ought in preference to endeavour to
keep these questions within their own jurisdiction. The
Right Hon. Baronet asked the House why could they not
postpone the second reading of the Bill for two months, till
after the recess ? The reason was obvious ; they had now no
business in the House ; they had now no business before them
to prevent the House from giving their full attention to this
subject. If, indeed, they postponed it till after Christina
other matters of pressing importance would come before them,
so that it would be impossible for them to give this subject the
same attention which they were now enabled to give it. With
regard, therefore, to the principle's which they were called
upon to affirm by reading the Bill a second time, and also
with regard to convenience as to the question of time, he
thought the House was bound to proceed to the second read-
ing of the Bill.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FRE S H Fl EL D rose amidst loud cries of " Divide I"
He-said that it appeared to him that the constitution of the
present Parliament afforded anything but a reason for change.
In the present Parliament parties were so fairly divided that
there was a much better chance of obtaining a fairly selected
Committee. Another reason for not proceeding wtth the
second reading of the Bill was, that it was not intended to
come into operation with respect to those elections which had
taken place.
The House then divided :
For the second readine- 214 •
Against it V 160
Majority —s4
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.

On our readmission to the gallery we found
Mr. O'CONNELL nn his legs, giving notice that in Coin.
nsittee on the Bill he should move the omission of the lasi
clause.—( Loud cheers from thn Opposition.)
POOR-LAWS.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose whilst considerable confu-
sion prevailed in the House, and said that a Committee had
been appointed last year on the subject of the working of the
Ponr•laws Amendment'Act, the revival of which it was now his
intention to move. He would only observe that he did not
move the appointment of the Committee now with any ex-
pectation that they would be able to bring their labour?, to
any successful re4ult before the Christmas recess ; but at the
same time they might be a'de to adduce some very important
evidence even within that period, and, at all events, it
was better to make a b.ginning. The Noble Lord. then
moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into
the distribution of relief to the pour in England uuder the

orders Of the Commissioners.
Mr. WAK LEY said, that as he had a motion on the
Paper-on the same-subject this evening, he wished to ask
the Noble Lord whether he would have any objection to
move an instruction to the Committee that they should
go -into the details of the medical department before any
other ?
Lord J. RUSSELL could hardly undertake to move such
an instruction now. The operation of the system of medical
relief to tke poor was a subject which must necessarily come
under the consideration of the Committee ; but, at the same
time, he thought that it was a subject so intimately connected
with the other features of the case that it could hardly be se-
parated into a distinct subject for inquiry. He would only add,
that he ( Lord 3. Russell) should be ready at all times to in-
quire into any facts connected with the medical department
of the Act which the lion. Member or any other Ilentleman
might be inclined to submit to him; and then, if the 'lion.
Member was not satisfied, he could resort to his original pro-
position, and move an instruction .to the Committee on the
subject.
Mr. DA RBY wished to draw the Noble Lord's attention
to a point connected with the.operatinn of the poor relief upon
which great feeling was expressed, particularly in the county
of Essex. There were there, as in all parts of the country,
a great number of labourers who had married under the old
si.tom of poor-laws, and had families of children which they
were unable to maintain, arid it was earnestly desired by them

that the Board of Guardi:na should have the power to admit
some of their children into the house. This was a matter in

Ishieh be tit-night it was abscßutely necessary something should
be clone before the Committee terminated its inquiry.

Colonel WOOD wished to know whether the Noble Lord
proposed that the inquiry should extend to the operation of
the workhous:i system? A very strong feeling prevailed
throughout the country against the kind of relief administered
in they buildings, and against the further erection of them,
many of which he must sty, 100k..d more like prisons than
the abodes of the aged and infirm.
Mr. LIDDELL said that great excitement prevailed
throughout the north of England against the workhouse
system, and many people were anxious for correct informa-
tion on the suliject. Under the pres-ent state of feeling on
the subject, he trusted, at least that he should be able to ob--
taht an assurance from some of the Members of her Majesty's
Government, that in cases where the workhouse system was
notiound to be absolutely necessary it should not be ex-
tended. The Hon. Gentleman then stated the ease. of some
districts in his neighbourhood where he old system had been
fulled to work well, and where relief was never to be given to
the able-bodied.
Mr. HUME said that it was but too true that great pains
had been taken by the enemies of this measure to excite a
onete or
two Hon. ttenme
eait s
upon
feeling against in the minis of the-people through.
out the, country. The observations of the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down were calculated to as3ist in this result;
but in
cesnetioonbseorr in s the
cire (u; la
;a
bud
tl)hice'
p c
on which, if true, it became incumbent upon him not to
vtsain.trisee toolfr
leave the House this evening without moving for an inquiry
on the subject, The Hon, Member stated that in Sunder
land 200 children had been deprived of parochial relief, and
that dark rumours were abroad. that many of them had been
deserted bs their parents to all the horrors of starvation.
Now, he would ask the [lan, Gentleman whether, as a Ma-
4istrate of the county, be had ever taken any steps to ascer-
tain the truth of any of these rumours.—( Hear, hear.) If
Hon. Gentleman had not investigated the matter in his ma-
gisterial capacity en the spot• and at the time, all he could
say was, that it now doubly behoved him to take every pos-
tilde step towards a rigid investigation of all the circum-
stances alleged.—( Hear, hear.) It was just such half-
and-half statements as the lion. Gentleman had this evening
made that had prejudiced the oonritry against tltc t ill, and led
to the unfortunhte'proceedings which they had recently wit-
nessed,—( Cheers.) ill; own opinion of the Bastardy clauses
was, that if any part of the Act had eperated bOter than
any
other it was those very clauses. By tile. returns which' he held

is his hand it appeared that th:•ir operation hal led to the rri:ht
gr4(ifying rt-14 -cheering results tlitoughout the country.
• 'Mr. LID DDLL said that regard to the f,ct of 200
chiHren having been deprive] of pa-ochial relief in Sunder-
land, he happened fortunately to be fortified in his statement
by the written statement of- a gentleman who, he I.lieved, •
was better 'aware of tne state of affairs in Sunderland than
any one else.—(Cries of " Name, name.") He must de-
cline naming the gentleman he referred to, unless called
'upon by the Chair, when he should certainly obey; but be
thought it would be rather hard to compei him to do tO:
At the same time he had no doubt but that the •gentle-
man would be perfectly ready at any time to make the same
statement at the bar of'the House which he had-done in Writ-
ing to himself (Mr. Liddell), namely, that "in the borough of
Sunderland 'more than 200 infant children had teen totally
deprived of parochial relief." This was his authority. for the
first statement he had made. He had also stated that rumours
had been afloat as to the finding of infant children deserted by
their mothers, and found dead, or in a state of starvation.
These rumours, he begged to repeat, certainly did prevail, and
they were. mentioned in the papers at the time, though he was
not aware that any caws had been brought to proof. With re-
gard to the observation of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, that
it was his (Mr. Liddell's) duty, in his magisterial capacity, to
have instituted an inquiry into these reports, he begged to ob-
serve that he was not a magistrate for the county of Durham,
though he had acted for the county of Northumberland. The
occurrences alleged took place far from his residence, and he
did not hear of them till some months after they were said to
have taken place.

Mr. HUME inquired whether the Hon. Gentleman could
state any one case of a child being found dead from starvation,
and where it hap_p2ned ? _ _

Mr. LIDDEIL was not prepared to give the par,iculars
of any i.:4dividual case of the kind, but he believed he could
refer the lion. Member to some •infor►nation on the subject,
particularly to the newspaper wherein the circumstance was
mentioned at the time.

An HON. MEMBER, who spoke from the Opposi.ion
but whose name we could not ascertain, said that the measure
of Poor-laws was calculaiel to press with undue severity 'on a
most meritorious and industrious class of the community.

Mr. G ORING was of opinion that the poWer of the
Guardians should be considerably increased, in order to have
the measure carried into Operation. As to the un:firmity-
system, it was clear that it was quite impracticable.
Scarcely two unions existed with the same rules and regula-
tions.--( Cries of " No, no.") This was a fact which he in-
sisted upon as undeniable. He hoped that the Noble Lord
would enforce on the Commissioners under his guidance the,
necessity of giving the local Guardians of Sussex a larger
power than seemed to be contemplated by the measure.
Mr. GUEST was satisfied that all the Commissioners
wished was a full and fair inquiry.
General JO H NS ON trusted that a fair and extensive inquiry
would be instituted, not only into the workhouse system,
but into the whole working of the Bill. He feared in its pre-
sent shape it could not be carried into operation in the ma-
nufacturing districts, where on a sudden emergency, such
as took place in Preston some time back, thousands were
thrown out of employment by the cessation of work in the
manufactories.

Sir H. VERNE Y had no hesitation in saying that this
was the most favourable and useful Bill which he had'ever
apsisted to have passed into a law.—(Hear, hear.) He knew
that it was a topic used successfully at the late election to de-
prive many Hon. Members of votes which they should other-
wise have received. That was his own case ; but he would
much prefer losing► his seat to a departure from his duty.—
(Hear, hear.) Before this law was passed an instance
came under his observation which tended to show, in a
striking light, the tendency of the labourers to look for
parochial relief. He was called upon to carry into effect
the regulation of a charity with which he was connected—
namely, to select six persona as the objects of its bounty
who had never applied for relief frotn the poor-rates.
His efforts, however, were unavailing, for be could not find
one person of the description he required amongst the poor
of the district.

Mr. CRIPPS said, it was well known that the late Mem-
ber for Berkshire (Mr. Walter) condemned the new system
high and low, but it was a curious fact, that within the last ten
days that gentleman having inspected a union in his county
with great attentien, extolled every thing he saw, and said that,
although he should ever continue an enemy to the measure, he
could not have imagined that the system would be brought to
such perfection as he witnessed.
Major CHRISTOPHER washappy to say that in his neigh-
bourhood it had worked to the satisfaction not only of the poor,
but of all classes.

Mr. BAINES, as Member of the former Committee, would
appeal to every Member of that Committee whether almost
every charge that had been made, either against the Commis-
sioners or the Board of Guardians, had not broken down on
examination. He was happy that the Noble Lord proposed
to reinstate the Committee, because he was convinced that
inquiry would tend to remove those prejudices which existed
against the measure, and which he regretted to find were in
some parts of the country breaking but into open outrage. In
addition to the reduction of the public expenditure, this was
one of the most important reforms of the age. He had voted
against the measure, but he was not indisposed to retract .his
opinions when he found them wrong.
Mr. HODGES begged to remind the House that there
had been many charges against the Commissioners which he
former Committee had not inquired into. He hoped at
this would be a full and fair inquiry.
Mr. WHITE and Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose together.
The Noble Lord gave way, and the Hon. Gentleman said, as
Chairman of a Board of Guardians in the county of Durham,
he could state that the new Poor-law was working great
benefit to the community. The paupers had more attention
paid to their cases, and greater discrimination was exercised in
the sums dispensed out of doors, and in the management Di!
the union workhouses. He was happy to see the Cornraittee
re appointed, and would say that the law, as a whole, should
have his best support. He had made a similar declaration on
his canvass at Sunderland, and it had not deprived him of the
favour of his constituents.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad he had given way, not
only because the Hon. Gentleman, had given much decisive
testimony in favour of the new Poor-law, but because he, being
Member for Sunderland, if any of those dark rumours pre.
vailcd whiSh had been alluded to, the Hon. Gentleman would
have been most likely t 3 rose his election by coming forward
as the defender of the Poor-law.

Mr. LIDDELL said the Hon. Member for Sunderland
had not denied the existence of the rumours to which he had
alluded.

Mr. WHITE said he had not heard of any such.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that if there had happened
any events so horrible as to justify the dark rumours which had
been described in Sunderland, there could be no more unpo-
pular ground for a candidate than to say, " I am Chairman of
a Board of Guardians, and I mean to stand by the law." He
could assure the lion. Member that he'paid very little atten-
tion to-such rumours, and he should advise him—(he hoped
he would have en opportunity, by being on the Committee)—
he should advise him to examine into the facts which were
slated, and which were put into the public papers, which the
lion. Gentleman seemed to consider a great authority on-the
subject.—( A laugh.) He would mention one or two in-
stances, in which the Commissioners had taken measures to
sift the truth of such stories. It had been stated at Hud-
dersfield, that there was a man in a workhouse in the neigh-
bourhood of Cambridge, who asked permission to go out
nod to bring his wife with him, when he was told that
she had been buried a fortnight before. The Commis-
sioners disbelieved the story, but they determined to as-
certain its foundation. They accordingly sent to all the
union workhouses in the county of Cambridge, to inquire
whether anything of the kind had occurred, and the answer
they received was, that no such occurrence had taken place.
Then they sent to inquire from idiom th'e statement had been
heard, and it was traced to a gentleman who said he had heard
such a report, but not with respect to Cambridge, or with re-
spect to any particular place. 'He was then asked, " Will
you tell the name of the person who told you?" The answer
was, sNo : he had it from a person he had never seen before.
It had been stated in a conversation by a person he had never
seen before, and whose name he did not know, that such a
"thing had happened somewhere in some workhouse ; and this
was the general answer that gentlemen would find given to
any inquiry into the foundation of similar rumours. With re-
gard to the terms of this inquiry the- Hon. Member for Bre-
con asked him whether it would be so extensive as to include
th man utmost of workhouses. His answer was, that the
inquiry would be as extensive as that of last year, and no
doubt it would include the management of workhouses, be-
cause it was to include everything that was done under.the di.
rection.of the Commissioners. Ile had only chosen the par -.
ticular words used in his motion, because he did not choose
that it sinAild admit of iheconstruction that a majority of that
•110113 e were inclided to sanction a repeal of the law. He
therefore Trellised an inquiry into every thing that had
been done' under the superintendence of the Commis-
sioners, rather than an inquiry into the law. itself. With re-
spect to the nature of the inquiry, mil the way in which it seas
ttj proceed, the great principle of the law roust be kept in view.
The great principle of the law was a distinction between de-
solation and labour,' or whatever were the other roarees from
which individuals drew their subsistence. The most prevalent
abuse in the Country under the old Poor Law was the mixing
up of the wages of labour; and the relief administered under
the Poor Law.' It had been said that the labourers them-
selves did not acknowledge that they received any benefit
from the law. lie did not recollect that there was any evi-
dence of labourers making this acknowledgment; but he ad.
matted that there might, without that, be ample proof of be-
nefit to the character,' the ernduct, and the occapation of the
working classes. - Ile would mention one or two instances,
not the most striking that could. be produced, but which had
been s'ated, in co sequence of his inquiries, in the Committee.
One instance was that (,f two labourers in a paritl,tobneeforoef
whom was u bad, unskilfuls.and idle labourer, the other an able,
skilful, hard-working, and industrious man. The statement
made by the person who mentioned this case was,
the passing of the Poor Law Act, the idle labourer, by sonic
nominal work on the road, received- from the parish a larger
sum than the industrious man,.by working hard from day to
day and from week to week, could earn for the support of his
family, and that considerable irritation existed in the mind of
the latter that he was not able to earn what was received by
the other from the parish. The case since the passing of the
Poor-law Act was reversed. The hard working industrious
man received a proper remuneration, and the lesS industrious
man obtained a lower rate. Was not this a good lesson for
the labourers ef Otis country; that they would be rewarded for
their industry and good conduct? The other instance to which
he referred as to the bad working. of the. former law was that
of two men who had wed 2qr4-40 Wtoney, and put it into a be-
nefit ssteiety. TRey found that this was of no use to them, as
a deductiori was made on account of their savings, and they
were not allowed so much money as those who vent their money

their
at beer-hous.s. The consequence w
tale Leer-
in money out of the.b. refit sbciety; and Spent it at 1.-11,-
those nb°
in order to pile° themselves upon an equaity ‘‘lt
refs, hots"
were rewarded by the state of the law. The laboud
„a thus 111,
ever, now found the benefit of their savings, had not
dustry and frugality received the benefit a hich they sod
'enjoyed under the old law. These were small iosten'es,ae.„t of
not so striking as many that had taken place. The eu",. or
• h_. the to
ited a
'ter
the mea;ure, hOwever, was not to be estim: ,eaayerS•
that th-v tooe
millions of immey which hal been saved to the ra' Fot• the
but by the question whether it improved the character
to in.
poor, and whether sufficient encouragement was giv 5 Ad.
dustry and frugality wl;ich was formerly given to idlene s•
oother
miffing this to be the principle of the law, theta canto te
question, which was a test of destitution ? It was sheddathese
make a distinction between those who received wages au e atol
who were in a state of destitution, in which respect abushesbuot
formerly Frerailed, and the Commissioners thought that
Ithat, ia
test in this respect was the workhouse. He must saY. test,
many instances, he also considered ibis a very sufficient
as on the one hand the able-bodied labourer would not
go a
avotkhouse, and, on the other, parishes found it a%Pcii bs
to increase his na;ges rather than incur the expense of
airy
support. But he admitted that it was a fair object of leg
whether the ww khouse was a universal test.. Ile did notrse:t
that, when children were turned out of employment, or g „„.
distress prevailed in a manufacturing town, every person
plying for relief should be sent to a workhouse ; but let sollL.sti.
test taken, sufficient to shot that these persons were a‘e
tute, end that money was not giva to those who did note_d.
re-
quire relief, and then the object of the law would bc answe
tro:
An Hon. Gent. had asked bins whether the Commissioners tevfor,,,,
about to order relief to those who had been married befog
the passing of the new Poor-law, and to. take their eh",e
into the workhouses. This subject was much under cons u:ei.
atior. His own impression was, as hp hal stated at the f',71,„
inquiry that the taking any part of a family into a workroa_id
would be a part of the allowance system, and that we shl),
be in danger of falling backinto rat system. It mightir d
said that a distinction could be male between those vill°
ril
been married before the law and those who had been lti,arr.et
since. His apprehension was, that this d.lstinction It'"ut,ti
st,
the
he preserved. Besides, if the practice were adopte°
father Would get rid of his children, the tie between Parc •
and children would be dissolved, and we should fall eganol.
into the abuses which had been removed by the chang.edlv
the law. This was his own opinion :.but it would undoubieia
be for the Committee to consider whether ansthing sit°u
be done on this subject. 'Some gentleman had sPnken:a"
the large size of unions. He knew that large unions
favourably viewed by the Commissioners, but he cosiners
s te
the point worthy of inquiry. There were many objecti°ns
large unions. The difficulty of bringing the Guardielleo,
gether, and the obstacles which the poor would have t°4 taat
tend with in reaching the place, were such objeeti°ll-doce
nothing but the most overwhelming evidence ought to le rs,
the House to acquiesce in the view of the Commisni°nethe
If, as the Hon. Member"for Kent said, the operation of
law bad net been fully investigated by the former Cole°, it„re
teer
ho was sure it was no fault of the Committee, for he hea,_ao
nir
known any Committee pay more attention to the subject ov.nts
it ; but there really were such a number of frivolous come the
and of witnesses in support of thdna, that they took tIP ore
time of the Committee unnecessarily. He hoped withr.inte.
method, and a better distribution of its time, the ti°,l,o
mittee would now be able to go more evensively into ;1
whole question of the operation of the law in the agrienitnir
districts, and to consider generally the question that more it
mediately interested the House—namely, in what mannerillsi
should be put in operation in the northern and manufacti net
u—
parts of the country. He was well aware that there bad
e
been in those districts such abuses as had prevailed in, „.
south, but the Commissioners found that, taking any dietr'n"he
say of fifteen parishes—there were always three or fnurirhe
which aura was a:ten lency to a bad system of Poor-lese• had
advantage there would not consist in so great a change es
been made in the south. It would rather arise from theacee.
cumstance of relief to the poor being placed under the rul.
lion of the board of guardiars instead of a vestry, so that bo
vestry would have power to introduce abuses, but woulu
checked by a more enlightened body, which would super!m
".
tend the whole.

The Noble Lord's motion was then agreed to, and theC6lY
mittee was named.
On the motion of Mr. MAHONEY, leave was gilfa to
, c,
bring in a Bill to amend an act passed in the 4th Geo. I V.A.
93, entitled " An Act to divide the county of Coik, for ....-
purpose of holding additional Sessions therein.
COMMISSIONS OF THE PEACE.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL obtained leave to brine
in a Bill for contiauing for a limited period Commissions F°o
the Peace, which would otherwise expire in the course of ale
days, in consequence of the demise of his late Majesty. 01
The Bill was then brought in, read a first time, and orde
to be read a second time to-morrow.
PRINTED PAPERS.
On the motion of Mr. F. BARING, the Committee:;
Parliamentary printed papers was re-appointed.
Mr. HUME should submit afroposition to the Col°'. 0
that the Ordnance maps be sold at the same cheap rite as 00
other Parliamentary papers. The Ordnance Survey baJ chat
the country a large sum of money, and it was but just It a
it should have the advantage of possessing the mar -
cheap rate.

IRISH CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS. of
Mr. BLEWITT postponed his motion on the subjeong
petitions against the return of certain Members for Itch
from Thursday next until the 6th of December.
The House then adjourned, at a quarter past ten.