The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-19 00:00:00

the responsibility of hijappointment upon any such Commit-
tee.—(llcar.) He said, too, most distinctly, that he would
oppose the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman being placed
upon the Committee. When he considered that females of
high birth and gr,:at amiability wore liable to be brought be-
fore that Committee,.he could not, after the speechet that had
been made, and the suspicions cast out, take upon him.7elf the
responsibility of concur,ing in that Honourable Gentle:lan's
appointment.
Mr. II UM E remarked that the Rieiit
man objetred to the appointment of the lion. Me,:lber for
Southwark on acconnt of the speeches he had made with re-
gard to the Pension List. Now he Might be objected to also;
for that Honourable Gentleman had rv.t.stated a single opinion
upon this subject in which he ( Mr. Hume) did not most fully-
concur ; and that Honourable Gentleman had even male
concessions with regard to the subject which he would nut be
inantd to make.
Sir R. PEEL sad that if the name of the lion. GL. otto-
man the Member for Kilkenny were propsed to be placed on
the same Committee he ;:could have resi,t,l —( Laughier.
A t present,
lowever, the objection was merely to the nomina-
tion of the Hon. Member Member for S Ile ob-
jected, however, to undertake any reqoasibility in the Iliad-
oation of the Committee. He hail said ilia objection to the
'nomination of the Hon. Member for Southw rh iesfed upon
the principle on which lie sought to have tiie inquiry con-
deeted. That lion. Gentleman had expressed a strong opi-
nion as to applying the same rules which were adopted under
the Poor Law to the persons whose nam..s wee on the Pen-
sion List,• and while doing this they had bcarl sarcasms and
persona allut,ions from the lion. Gentleman, which every one
of Ahem must rei ollect ; there was, too, someih'ng in the tone
and manner of the Hon.• Gentleman which Wa3 quite as signi-
ficant as ilia expressions.—(Hear, hear.) When, then, he
recollected that tone and manner, and considered the apt eches
he had made, and the parties that were to he bef,re the Com-
mittee, he could not vote for the Hon Gentleman.
Mr. M. A TTWOOD did not consider that the Right

Hon. Gentleman had made oat a suarient els:3 to ju%ti:%. -Gat
in oppo-iag the appointment of the Hon. Member fur :...ineth-
wark on the ,Committee. The tone and minner of an Hon.
Member in addressing that House could never, in his opinion,
be a suffickntiy strong reason for excluding him from a Com-
_ _

Lord HOWICK observed that it rested with the Hon.
Member for Southwark, and it rested only with the Hon.
Member himself, to say whether he was or was not a proper
person to be placed upon a Committee, and especially iu such
a case as this.—( Hear.) What were the circumstances under
which they were called upon to make a decision ? The
Houee had determined, and is his opinion they had deter-
mined most properly, .that evidence until reported to that
'House by the Select Committee appointed to receive it should
not be published by any member of that Committee, or by
any other person. It was not, as the Honourable and
Learned Member for Oxford supposed, a mere question
as to the time at which the publication was to take
place, but it was a question whether evidence not
reported to the House should be published by any member of
a Committee.—( Hear.) He appealed to every gentleman in
the habit of sitting on Committees whether one of the ques-
tions most frequently discussed by them was not this, whe-
ther particular evidence was or was not fit fur publication ?
Ile saw then an Hon. Baronet ( Sir W. Molcsworth) sitting
neat to the Hon. Member for Southwark. That Hon. Baro-
net, he was sure, could not have forgotten that lest year, when
be was Chairman of the Select Committee see Transportation,
a great d al of evidence had been given a hied' it was the una-
nimous opinion of that CoMmittee was not fit for publication ;
and before they agreed upon the reported evidence to the
House they struck out of it the portions be referred to from
the minutes of the Committee.—( Hear, hear.) What then was
the pretension set up ley the Hon. Gentlemao? It was t'tis.
The question restel with the discretion of the Commit-
tee to decide as to publication. That was a very nice
and a very delicate question to. determine. Evidence might
then come before the Committee, and if a majority cf that
Committee pronounced against publication, and the Ho-
nourable Member for Southwark eat on the Committee,
he by his sole will and determtnetioa had the power cf
overruling the decision of the Committee.—(Hoer.) And
whereas the twenty-nue Members proposed by his Right lion.
Friend might say, " This or that evidence is n 4 en the whole
desirable to publish," yet the Hon. !earlier for South-
wark could say, " You may decide as you please—you twenty-
one Members may so determine, and your judgment iney
be very good; but in spite of the resoluden you have unani-
mously come to, and in defiance of the rules of the House that
evidence is not to be published which you do not sanction, in
spite of all that I think the evidence ought to be published,
and it shall appear in the newspapers to-morrow in despite of
your opposition."—( Hear.) The 110:1. Member might not
use that which he seemed to consider was his privilege to that
extent; but neither to that Honourable Member nor any other
Member could he think of giving a discr lion and a power of
overruling the decision of the majority of every Committee
of which he chaiced to be a Memlor.—( Hear.) The deci-
sion of the majority, in his opinion, ought to be binding.—
( Hear.) He must say with the Right Hoe. Baronet oppo-
site this much with respect to the speeches of the Honourable
Member for Southware, that, without wishing to sly anything
disrespectful of him, they proved that he at least was not a fit
person with whom to leave such a r'iscretionary power.
The House, too, must not forget that there were many cir-
cumstances which made this question, at the present moment,
of peculiar importance. Hon. Gentlemen could hardly have
forgotten the question of their right to protect publications
printed under their authority. Ire all the discussions upon
that point it was declared to be of the utmost importance that
their Committees should exercise a sound discretion as to
what questions were proposed and what evidence was received
by them, in order that they might avoid as much as possible
doing an injury to private individuals. If, then, they put that
responsibility on the Committee, were they to allow iadivi-
duals in opposition to the Committee, and in spite of their
rules, to publish that evidence, the publication of which they
might desire to avoid ?—( Hear, hear.) lie agreed as to the
importance of maintaining a rule unanimously affirmed by the
House last year. He concurred, too, with the Right Honour-
able Baronet that there was a great distii.c ion in placing an
Hon. Member on a Committee, and in avowing his determine-
tion to violate the rules of the House (.which he thought the means
could be found of preventing), and not controlling him in
taking advantage of what he considered to be his privilege in
publishing the evidence given before the Committee. But
the Hon. Member affirmed that he would not consent to obey
the rules of that House—he even told the House he would
violate them. The Honourable Member for Bridport bad in-
deed said that thsy had always got the worst in all their at-
tempts to coatroul publication. With respect to the debates
in that House he agreed that all attempts to prevent their
publication had been, and ought to have been, defeated. But
with respect to the proceedings before their Select Com-
mittee the case was very different.—( Hear, hear.) Having,
in the course of his duties, served upon several of those Com-
mittees, he could say that it was, from his experience, a mat-
ter of considerable importance that a sound discretion should
be exercised in not publishing evidence given before Com-
mittees. He would, before sitting down, remark upon the un-
fortunate proofs which a Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castle-
rengh) had afforded them of his indisposition to give a factions
vote; for he had unfortunately come down with a prepared
speech—(laughter)--a speech prepared for his c +se, which he
was aware of—of their unwillingness to place the Honourable
Member for Southwark on the Committee, but which was
not at all suited to meet the reason that they assigned for it—
namely, that the lien. Member would not be bound by the re-
solutions of the House. —( Hear, hear, hear.) Let the Hon.
Member crow say distinctly in his place that he would be bound
by them.—(Cries of " No, no," from Mr. Harvey and others.)
It was, he considered, do impeachment upon the honour of any
Gentleman to declare that he would be bound by the rules of
the House, unanimously agreed te. If lie would d so the
Right [ion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would move
that be be placed upon the Committee.
Lord CASTLEREAGH considered that at the end of the
Noble Lord's obse.vations an unwarrahtaale sllusion had been
made to him. He assured the• Noble Lord that lie did not
Come down to that House with a prepared speech. lie hoped
the Noble Lord could say the same thing.—(Laughter.) The
Noble Lord was incorrect its another instance, for it so hap-
pened that he was quite aware of the subject of debate, and
was apprised of the intention of the Hoe. Member for South-
wark to publish whatever might be debated in Committee. Now
he, in his simplicity of mind, thought the House of Commons
could correct that error in the lioneurable Member for
Southwark, while at the same time his (Lord Cestlereagh's)
wish was to expose to the public the plan adopted by her Ma-
jesty's Government, and who, while irretending to court in-
quiry into the Pension List, adopted the very best means they
could think of of covering it over, and sheltering it from ob-
servation.--( Cheere from Opposition M+ mbcss, with cries of
" Spoke, spoke," from Members on the Ministesial benches.)
He had risen to explain, and he could not now sit down without
congratulating the Noble Lord on having entirely raisrep:e.
seated his sentiments.
Lord HO WICK rernrrked that the Noble Lord's explana-
tion left the matter considerably more obscure than it hid
been before.—(Liughter.)
An HON. Memeee considered the Right lion. Baron: t the
Member for Tamworth had'very properly refused to 114ic any
share in the responsibility of the noinieetion of the Commit-
tee. Now, though he approved or the course %%Ilia the
Right Hon. Gentleman was disposed to adopt, yet for ilherelf
he must say, that he would take what the Right Hon Gentle-
man had designated the " shabby" course, by not voting at ail
upon this question.
Mr. WA K LEY had, he said, listened whit very groat at-
tention to the debate, and he confessed he was not a little
puzzled to discover the proper conclusion which he ought to
draw from the observations that had been made. The right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had informed the Heise
that at the very outset the name of the lion. Niernhes for
Southwark suggested itself us the fi-st that should
placed on the Committee; then the R'glit ll:mourable
man observed that the Honourable U • ntleman la l made a
speech which would induce him to be adverse to his nomi-
nation; and then the Noble Lord the Secretary at War had
informed the House that her Mjestv's Gov, rnment consi-
dered that from the expressions used by the lienourable
Gentleman it would be in the highest degree inexoedient
to have such a pees_: en the Conienittee.—( Hear, hear.)
The Right Hen. Baronet the Member for Taroworth acknoly-
ledged very frankly that the line of ex-mination likely to be
adopted by the Hon. Member for Southwatk would render it
impossible fur him to giee .his consent to place that, lion.
, Gentlemen cn the Committee. Now he (Mr. Wakley) said
l that it he could believe thet such a mode of examination
I would be adopted by the lion. Member for Southwark as
that which they had a precedent fur under the grinding
principles of the new Poor-taw, he never would vote for the
infroluetion of the lion. Member f..r South:York amongst the
Members cf the Committee.—(Hear.) He never could be
guilty of the &Ole injustice of sexing what was practised