The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, APRIL 19. 1839.

der, although they were well known to all the inhabitants of the
village where it took place, and his Lordship gave notice to the
teaante of the village that if they did not give such information
as would enable him to prosecute the perpetrators, when the
lease of the village fell out he %%mild remove all the inhabitants.
Ile would premise that there had been not less than four mur-
ders, as well as several other capital felonies perpetrated on the
property. No information having been given, and no steps,
hiving been taken to bring the parties to justice, he exercised
the rights of property, and ejected the teaants of the village con-
tai .ing 23 houses ; but it was not true, as was stated, that he
had left these men to starve, for they had each got a sum
of money on giving up their holdings.—( Hear, hear.) Any
one who knew the humanity and philanthropy of the!
Noble Lot d wotild not believe the foul calumnies that had been
circulated with respect to that transaction. Every man so
turned out, although not entitled to the least attention or
lenity received a sum of money, and their families were provided
for. That was the shield that had been thrown over the out-
rages and offences that had disgraced that part of the country.
Even his (Mr. Lefroy's) name had been introduced by the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny, as having acted a similar part, but
he could state that not more than one ejectment had been
served upon his property, and that was because the tenant had
rendered the house a nuisance, and all his neighbours hal peti-
tioned to have him ejected. Another statement—a charge had
been made by the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin from
a caper of the same politics as himself that a verdict had been
obtained against Lord Lorton by a widow whom he had attempted
improperly to dispossess. It wirs attempted by that report to
hold Lord Lorton ap to the public as an oppressor of his
tenantry. He (Mr. Lefroy ) had had no opportunity at the
time of inquiring into the circumstances, but he had since
ascertained that it NV :5 not believed that any lease existed.
The tenant was known to have forged a lease for thirty years
into one for eighty years.
Mr. O'CONNELL—But the verdict on the trial was for the
lease.

towards Ireland could pursue. It had admin,stered t he laws impar-
tially to all, and had taught the people to trust in the law. There
could be no doubt that the vote of the Lords was a vote of cen-
snre, because it stated that crime had increased since 1835,
before making an) inquiry on the subject. The conduct
of the Noble Lord on this question did him infinie credit,
and nothirg could be mere absurd than Hon. Gentlemen opposite
saying the House should content itself with expressing no
opinion on the subject. He did not deny that crime existed
in Ireland, but this was the first time that an endeavour had
been made to make the Government responsible for it. A
Committee of that House in 1831, had stated that the relation
of landlord and tenant was the cause of crime in Ireland.
The;e was no doubt the amendment was intended to remove the
prese t Government and to bring in the Honourable
Gentlemen opposite ; but he would ask, on prin-
ciples it was proposed by those Honourable Gentlemen
to govern Ire'and? Was it on the prineip!es of the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, or those of the
other Right Hon. Baronet. the Member for Oxford ; on
the principles of the Right Hon. Member for Kent, or on those
of the Hon.. Member for Wakefield ; on the principles of
the Recorder for Dublin, or on those of his own corpo-
ration? Hon. Gentlemen had remarked on the difference of
opinion en his side of the House, but no two Mem-
bers had spoken alike on the other side, and
he. knew net .how a Government could be formed of sue!,
discordant materials. He should like to hear the oidilion of
the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire on the peti-
tion of the Duke of Leinster, whether that Noble Lord was
prepared ems to scout the opinion of men to whose opinion
on a former oecasionhe hod attached the greatest value. Alen
had now come forword to express their decided approbation of
Lord Normauby's Administration, and to bear their testimony
that neither life nor property were insecure in Ireland,
who had never before taken any part in politics, and he hoped
the Legilature would respond to the pe'itions which had been
presented, and Ireland would be spared the return to power of
those men whose form of government had been a curse instead
of a blessing. He would caution Hon. Gentlemen opposite
against tilting a false view of this question, and attempting to
govern Ireland according to those ant qqated views which
would be destructive of the connection with this country.
Sir F. TRENCH next addressed the House. After hear-
ing last night the speech of her Majesty's Solicitor-General for
Ireland he felt bound to declare it a co .mplete failure, for he had
studiously avoided the important parts of the quest.o.i. he
regret he felt at hearing that speech had been aoieviated by the
convincing arguments of the Learned Recorder of Dublin,
who had taken the common sense view if the question,
and 'placed the most convincing details before the House. They
had heard a great deal about the cruelty of landlords. He
c-eild not agree in the greater portion of the statements that.
had been made with respect to them, nor could he assent to
the statement, that to them were to be attributed the ra'series
of Ireland. Ile believed that one of the greatest evils in that
country. was the manner of dividing the land among
the Members of which were not generally small in point of
numbers in that country, for in Ireland a man seldom married
without having a large family.—( Laughter.) In his opinion
it would be much better, instead of dividing the land, if the
younger members of families were induced to emigrate.
With respect to the policy of the present Government, in
respect to the administration of the affairs of Ireland, he
must confess that he looked upon it with great distrust, as its
general tenour h:ld been to shake the foundation of the Protes
tent religion in that country. He heard last session with sur-

Air. LEFROY.—True : but these facts did not come
out until after the trial. It was well known to all ac-
quainted with .him that Lord Lorton was one of the best of
landlords and kindest of men, and every gentleman in his
county" would support that character.—( Question, questio s. )
Loral MORPETH said that the motion of his Noble Friend
and the amendment" of the Right Hon. Baronet—the present
posture of affairs, and the many statements that had been made
in the course of the debate—rendered it impossible for him with
a view to the situation which he had the honour to fill, and the
part he had borne in the many transactions which formed the
main object of discussion, to remain on the present occasion
wholly silent and unmoved ; but also recollecting the con-
siderable length to which in a previous period of the session
he had enjoyed the indulgence of the House in]vindicating the
measures of the policy of the Irish Government, and the
protracted debates that hid already takes place in both
branches of the Legislature on those topics, he now could
hardly have sufficient excuse for trespassing at any further
length en the attention of the House, more especially as on the
former occasion be had found it necessary to bring forward a
vast mass of statistical and other official details and papers, he
trusted that' he might now, luckily for the House and
for himself, feel himself relieved.from a similar necessity. He
should not feel it necessary to follow the Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman who had jest sat down, through the details
of his speech. It was called for from the Right Hon.. Gentle-
man, but it was unnecessary that he (Lord Morpeth) should
dwell upon it : lie must however remind the Right Honour-
able Gentleman and the House, that he (Mr. Lelroy)
in reviewing the proceedings of the Irish; Government
'admitted that they had supplied all the assistance that had been
asked for—(Cheers)—and some of the statements of the Right
Honourable Gentleman also showed the difficulties which any
Iri-h Government, in such circumstances, must have to struggle
with.—(Cheers.) Now, the motion of his Noble Friend, led
them to two branches of consideration, namely the necessity
for such a motion being brought forward al present, which
was questioned and denied by theamendment of the Right Hon.
Baronet, and the abstract propriety of the motion which was
asserted and baintained on his (Lord M.'s) side of the House.
It was only with the first part of this consideration that the
amendment. of the Right Hon. Baronetdealt—it was an amend-
ment entirely a matter of time, place, and form ; it had no
more original colour than the eamelion ; it was a new version
of the old song of the previous question, done into Alexandrine
verse—

g
prise and disgust the largaae of the Noble Lord the Secre-
ntry of State for the Home Department, when the ease of the
Protestant elerga men of Ireland was brought. under the con:
tideration of the House Upon that occasion the Noble Lord
had met their appeal to the House by a few poetical
lines which had been used by the Hon. Member for Belfast
during the present debate :
" Call it madness, call it folly,
You shall not chase my grief away ;
There's such a charm in melancholy,
I would not, if I could, be gay."
—(Lnufg,hter.) A new Lord Lieutenant had been now sent to
Ireland, and a hope had been expressed by several Hon.
Members that he would follow the footsteps of his predecessor.
For his own part, he (Sir F. Trench) trusted that
he would avoid them.—( Hear.) He was sorry that the great
talents of the Honourable Member for Dublin were diverted
into so improper a channel, far if he would only turn his mind
to encourage agriculture in Ireland. he would make her the "Which, like a wounded snake,
Sicily of the United Kingdom.—( Cheers.) He avas sorry to Dragged its slow length along."
say that the people of Ireland were in a more wretched state With the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, and with the
than any other country on the globe, and he felt bound agreeable tone which distinguished it, he had no reason to
to attr.bute that state to the system adopted by the quarrel. It afforded in this respect a striking and decided con-
present Government. He telt bound, in conclusion, tract with many of the speeches which had been delivered on
•te declare his firm conviction that the Government of Lord Irish subjsets. Although this discussion had been marked by
Normanby had been a curse to Ireland.—(Cheers.) ipless acrimony than those which usually took place on purely
Mr. HUME thought that the Hon. and Gallant Member Irish grounds, there was certainly an attempt, bat he trusted
who had spoken last, in stating that the people of Ireland were an ineffeetual one on the part of the lion. Member for Kent,
in a more wre:ched state than any other country in the world to renew the waning • fires of religious strife and quarrel.—
had testified as strongly as any one could do against the party lie M ( Lord .) lamented as much any one the occurrence
to whom he herlonged.--( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Admit- of instances in which Protestants had been alleged to have
ring Ireland to be in the wretched state which the been persecuted by Catholics. Nothing could be more inimicrl
Honourable and Gallant Member had stated, he should be to the feelings of the Gover.ement nothing could be more
able to show that they were unanimous at the present time in hateful to the feelings of any man of principle than such con
beseeching that House arid the Crown not to turn them over duct, but he put it to the House whether it was a proper wai
.
again to that merciless Government which had brought upon of counteracting those most objectionable and atrocious
them all the distresses to which they had been subject,— ceedines, to hold out to the people of Ireland, in places where
( Cheers.) Much had been said about crime and murders in -such matters came under discussion, that they did not profess
Ireland. Now he (Mr. Hume) doubted very much if the the true religion ?—( Hear, hear.) Now it was contended by
calendars of Ireland and England were compared whether it the Right Hon. Baronet, and by those who in following him
would be found that those statements were correct, because had treated of the constitutional part of the question,
he believed that comparisons would show that the that the vote of the House of Lords, of which this House now
commission of crime in England was much greeter than in had official cogniaznee, through the search made in their Lord-
Ireland. During .the Present Session of the Central ships' Journals, ought not to be considered as a vote of censure,
Criminal Court he had - been told that no less than that it came as perfectly.withio the proper form of that branch
318 prisoners had been tried, all of whom had been of the Legislature to move for a Committee of elkquiry, as in
committed within the last six weeks. He did not believe that this House to move for the production of papers—
any thing like that • number had been committed in Ireland both proceedings being mere preliminary matter in case
luring the same period, notwithstanding all that had been said any grounds for ulterior proceedings tinned be established
against the Goeenini: nt of Lord Normanby—he would ask and brought to light. Now, certainly, he could not
what had been the result of the Administration of that Noble take upon himself to deny that Committees of Inquiry
Lord ? Why as a proof of the effect of that policy, he need only might often be moved for, and had often been moved for, with-
advert to the charge of the Revising Barrister at Kilkenny, out giving any necessary ground for offence, and it was none-
who had stated that the calendar wets of an' exceedingly rious that many committees had been appointed with the full
light description, that they had heard of rumours of acquiescence and approbation of existing Governments. The
Itibbenistu existing, in the county, bat that he had Right Hon. Baronet had cited instances of each Committees.
met with no instances .of them ; that property was safe, and He cited an instance of a Committee, moved for in 1832, in
every man's person secure; adding that this was to be attri- this House, and to which it was not to be expected that the
buted to the manner in which the administration had governed Government of that day would be disposed to offer any
that country. . How was that, he would ask, consistent with serious objection, inasmuch as it was moved for by one favoutable
:he opinions that had been stated in that House and elsewhere. to their own body, the Member for Queen's County; the Right
(Hear, hear). The ground of the motion that had led Hon. Baronet had also cited a. motion in the Lords for the
to the resolution which had been proposed by the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the appointment
Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- of Sheriffs in Ireland, and he hail seemed to infer that it was
orient, was that life and property were insecure in Ireland'. even a stronger case in point than the one now under discus-
It had been clearly shown that the very contrary was the sion, because the inquiries of that Committee would be di-
diet; that the government of Lord Normanby had been mainly rooted to what was undoubtedly and exclusively a
conducive to the happy state of things that were beginning to "art of the discretionary exorcise of the prerogative.
make way in Ireland. •
The Hon. and Gallant Member la- lint he would put him in mind that all exclusive reference to
inented the speech which had been made by the Solicitor Gene- the proceedings of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland were pro-
ral for Ireland. He had characterised that speech as a decided per!), excluded from the reference made by the House of Lords
failure. Now what was that speech? Why the Hon. and to lila'. Committee, and that the chief ground for appointing
Learned Member had shown most clearly that so far from crime that Committee was the difference of opinion as to the state of the
'increasing, it had diminished in Ireland ; and that the law concerning the appointment of Sheriffs. If they were to 1 e
locuments upon which so many charges had been encouraged to appoint other Committees, or acquiesce in the,
rounded against the present Government were totally incorrect. appointment on the ground of that precedent, he conceived th
The Hon. Member complained that too much blame bad been eeneouragement to be derived from the result of their labours,
thrown upon Noble Lords and landed proprietors for clearing would be very slight indeed, frr to this day filet Committees
heir estates—driving, as it was salted. He . was one who had made no report.—( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
would be most loath to interfere with the rights of property ; Bat it was quite plain that a question of this sort
hut in his conscience he believed that much of the crime exist- —a question whether a vote for a Committee of Inquiry
ng in Ireland was the effect of desperation, arising from the ought to he considered as a vote. of censure, must depend upon
cruel conduct of the landlords. A statement of a most horrible the intention, upon the animus with which it had been moved,
nature appeared in the Irish Newspapers only a few days ago. upon the-statements by which the motion had been accom-
( The lion. Member here read the Report of the panted, and the arguments upon which it been based and sup-
Hying or clearing of Lord Lorton's estate, from which poked.—( Hear, hear.) lie had no accurate mode of arriv.
462 families had been removed within a few years.) That ing at what was said and urged upon the occasion of the
-tatement had been made anonymously ; . but he under- appointment -of that Committee, but still he thought
stood that the writer of it was ready to come forward should it could be well imagined that an inquiry might have been
any of the (acts be disputed. That case he cited as an answer moved into the conduct of any particular functionary upon such
:o the lion. Member who had spoken last, who denied that reasons as thee"—that upon his Administration rested the re-
any
cruelty had existed. It was said that the Catholics had sponsibility of the tears of sorrow and streams of blood which
done all ' his, and that the Catholic religion was the bane and had marked the career of his authority—that his Administration
o rss of Ireland ; and to carry out the speech of the Hon. had been detrimental to the public sikty—that he had suffered
-Member, it-would require a war of extermination, in order to crime to go on, whereas his predecessors had grappled with
reduce the country to anything like a state of peace,—( Hear, ansl subdued it—that it was a painful subject to see an office
hear, and laughter.) The friends of the Hon.
_Member had so bestowed, and its functions so exercised ; and be would put
and they it to the honest construction of even lion. Gentlemen opposite
hgoadveribleadd- Inlandevery
means
in their
thlaestrt 6poooweyrears,nf
changing whether any Committee of Inquiry into the conduct of a
the religion of the country ; but on every occasion particular functionary brought forward in this manner,
where persecution had been resorted to Catholicism had supported upon such arguments, accompanied by such
increased. The Hon. 'Member ought to remember that in imputations, would not have borne the bona fide character
Ireland the Catholics were as seven to one to the Protestants; of a tolerably distinct vote of censure, and would not have
"yell, the seven to be exterminated in order that the one might left giound for it to be inferred that a stigma was
live in peace? It seemed to him that the non. Member (Mr. aimed at, if not inflicted upon, those who, having been made the
Plumptre) was like the hated Inquisitors of old—they always subject of calumny, were afterwards made the subject
said that theirs was the true religion—( Hear, bear)—and so did o': inquiry?—(Cheers.) And what had been the opinions which
the Hon. Member sayof his ; and he, like them, was for puaish- the course of the debate had elicited upon this subject? Did
.ng every one who differed from him. Give the Eon. Member they find such a coincidence of opini en as would enable them
the same power which had been enjoyed by the Grand Inqui- to see clearly to what vote they ought to come? The Hon.
sitor of Spain, and he fully believed that his actions Member for Wakefield told the Hon. and Gallant Member for
would be as had.--(Cheers and laughter.) Tire main- Sligo that after the speech which he delivered he could trot see
tenance of the dominant Church in Ireland was the how he could vote for the amendment of the Bight Hon.
real bane of that country, and he did not expect Baronet. Perhaps the most intemperate speech was made by
to see harmony established so long as that enormous Esta- the Noble Lord, the Member for Bath—a Member who
olishrnent was kept up ; and when the proper time arrived he of all others might have been expected to reflect
would bare no hesitation in giving his vote for suelia reduction most clearly the impression which prevailed in the
41 the Establishment as would make it commensurate with the mind of the Committee of the House of Lords.—(Cheers.)
lumber of Protestants in that country. The government of '['he whole tenor of his speech went to show that the Corn-
the Marquis of Normanby had given every satisfaction to the naittee was appointed not to suggest remedies for the con-
immense magirity of the people of Ireland, as was proved by dition of Ireland, but to prepare an indictment against its
the number of petitions which had been presented within the - Rulers.—(llear, hear.) The amendment which bad been
last few days to that House. The vote which was sought was moved by the Right Hon. Baronet offered no opineon what-
no vote ref confidence in the Ministry. The attacks which had ever upon the merits of the Government. But they
been made upon the Irish policy appeared to him like personal were told by the Hon. Member for Sligo, and the other night
attacks on the Noble Marquis.—( Cheers.) Ile wished that by the [lnn. Member for Londonderry, that the Adminidstra-
Ministers would act towards England and Scotland in such a tion of Lord Normanby was the greatest curse ever inflicted
manner as to give equal satisfaction to the people a those upon the country.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for
countries.—( Cheers ) The vote he would give in favour of wiltehire, who made so smart and spirited a sally the other
the resolution of the Noble Lord was confined exclu- night( Tory cheers)—he trusted he never should be
iivelv to the policy they hod pursued in Ireland. When the person- to depreciate an opponent—that Hon. Member
that House addressed . his late Majesty, and (iii Majesty said that the, Government was -accused, and the Honourable
expressed a wish to discourage all secret societ:es, Lord Mul- Member for Donegal said they had been aunty, of acts of the
grave rigidly carried that wish into cie y department; but grossest corruption and se fishness, and for fear the House
with regard to that society which they had been led to believe should mistake his meaning, because he said he liked to use
was at en end, he was exceedingly sorry to observe was again civil language, he had made that. point clear by declaring
revived. Was it pessible to suppose that tho Right Hon. that the condition in which the Government was placed by
Member for Tamworth was ignorant of what was going on the Muse of Lords, was that of culprits in a dock.—(Cheers.)
in reference to those Societies, and that the Orange -It was true that. the motion which was carried in that House,
Societies were reviving in Ireland?—( Hear, hear, hear.) nsadeby the Right lion. and Learned Member for the lime
Or was it to be wondered at that the
Ireland should dread the c nsequenee of their proleee!ciPliengso?f
He observed from the 1. err; Staticb,rd of the 10th or 12th of the same particular period, being the period of the A mi-
ve.r.sity.of Dublin, for the production of certain papers, specifiedtt.
taken place, at which the Rev. John Grahameme bad taken
this month, that a meeting of the Orane nof Cole. tine nestration of the Marquis of Normanby, which was also reserved
tied far the judicial enquiry of the House of Lords. But the
Chair? and which they came to asressution, among others
that the appointment of Lord Forte coueedt the ,
the Right
absenceH o rr.
oarn
anyd Learneddietati
dictation
Baroneti
n the
motionlaid particularo f his
Noblestres stress
Friendutron
'itinh, iev's l
hadherbleein,a
tsourcel
deep alarm to them, and that they h
looting her Coronation oath, would cancelP thatii,ailiteit'll'itermeer,nt. of the particular period to wliiiegerltfteii,rte.eadlAlutdodoie.
motion,marquis i(i)ifstNea
hrAaiCtelimonitnhiesotrfether
Administration
Here was an attack made immediately that
of
distinction Ireland in late years. Now he tho: ght that
pointment of the Viceroy of Ireland', and which J.JsoeirmeafnbFyPe oetilfly'
between the one proceeding and the other marked
calculated to .prevent him from exercising his powers the character of the
present proceeding. The motion '
in•the way he would exercise them, if unfettered by their coin- House of Lords, in the invidious spirit of censure, fixedle the
its
ainations. He hoped the time was not far distant when all imelied condemnation on particular men and a particular period,
. these Associations would be put an end to, and when peace and whereas the motion of his Noble Friend refused to monopolise
unanimity would be restoeed to* Ireland. With that hope he the credit to particular men or particular times, to which p
should support the resolution poposed by Her IMajesty's Mi- sinly others might feel they had a claim. But he .-
°l-
himself, on
nisters. the occasion of the motion of the Right Hon. and Learned
Mr. FRNCI-1 explained. Member for the University of 'Dublin limiting his favours to a
Mr. LEFROY was surprised that the [lon. Member metro- particular period, protest. d against that condemnation, as being
site, who hod just sat down, should again have brought forward conceived in what be thought an invidious and ungenerous
charges, implicating him-elf and a Noble Friend of his, which spirit.—(Hear, hear.) True it was he did not think it worth
had already been so satisfactorily answered, and without any es-hile to propose an amendment to that motion, and if the
notice to hi ~. But having done so, be hoped the H•lse Would same inconclusive and every-day sort of motion had followed in
excuse him
from going into the subject, because as often as the other House the regular quantity of abuse and attack which
these accuse t. tiens were made, so often was it necessary to refute it was thought right to expend on such occasions—(Checri)—
.
them. At the same time, ha must observe that they were al- if especially even this tame and creeping motion had been
question before the Ilouse, which brought to the same abortive, though most ap otwiate, conclu-
solelytogether irrelevant to
.the
ofL d Normanby while in office in • .when the recitalof their misdeeds -Prf
Lord
regarded the conduct
had -
adverted to Lord Lorton's nuneiation of their Government was poured forth to
Ireland. The lion. Member
estate in the course of this very month, benches whirls, upon the accurate enumeration of the
taking pessession of an .
as if that could have been an :cure
e for the conduct - Speaker, when called upon to make it, did not present their .
preceding: Tears. It was complement of forty Members—in that case they might have
of I.ord Norrnanbv for the four
. .
of the High Sheriff that
a military been disposed to treat that demonstration with the same indit-
under the direction
force was called out on that occasion,
*on and the officer was to fereace ; but it was certainly thought, and he believed the
execute the Queen's writ. The
'Member had stated that country and the House would think, that when a different cha-
a series of cruelties were committed0
on
that occasion, but all racter and complexion attached to the appointment of an inqui-
the statement he had made from an anonymou .
'
s Publication sition, if he might so call it, composed cf such materials
was a gross exaggeration. Lord Lorton paid every
man who founded on such imputations as those he had described,
'
enable them to obtain i and regularly and formally protested against by those who were
left the land a sum of money, so as to s oak- I most competent to make the protest under such circurn-
another farm, or to emigrate to America. He was nor
Lo
stances he thought it would and must be considered as a vote of
ine of tit tit' removal of tenants, after which Lon L .
~,.
e Tke I,:istllt lkn. i'.arcnet ached why tlnt nwti.,..:71
-. •,:th,:ln ~-., . ~•.:.•,..
' --• . . - - " '''‘'',, ,I'.-'"0,1'., :c'i•c' "' '''''''''"3"` ' • - cuuLi :lot have 'oecn ainendtd ia the House of Lords, and
i ' ' ' -• ' - -'''-o oi , ,;.: ie.a'. leg li,,,andl,cl;i.dnotheen tin ee :boons
b' le made to embrace awls rger yeriod of time. Ele would
on the prei-: er tv, when he was barbarously murdered.—( Bear.) i t
se to inquire hether the course and temper
lot pau
No attempt was made to discover theperpetrators of the mur- I
I

1834, and at the spring assizes of 1835, James Connor had
been tried for this assault, and Judge Moore had reported that
he did not consider the evidence of the constables of police
worthy of credit, and the prisoner was liberated. In June,
1836, James Daly and Gahan were tried for the same assault
and convicted on the same evidence. The Attorney-
General then referred to the returns of Mr. Kemyss,
the Crown Solicitor on the case, and he found the fol-
lowing memorandum relative to the case, " James
Connor, tried and convicted at the Spring Assizes of 1835, for
an assault; James Daly, traversed ; shall the Crown prosecute ?"
under which he the Attorney-General had written " yes."
But had he been aware of the Report of Judge
Moore, he should net have given these directions, and as the
other prisoner had been liberated on that report, and as no far-
ther evidence had been produced on Gahan's trial except that
of one man, who stated that Daly had denied his •:ame when
apprehended, he (the Attorney General) reported that
he considered it a proper case for the extension of mercy.
He was sorry to trouble the House with these details, but he
did it for the purpose of showing how acutely the mind of
his Learned Friend, Sir Michael O'Loghlen, had sifted this
case, as he did every other case that was submitted to him.
His Learned Friend then went on to state, that there were
other reasons why the judgment should not be carried into
effect e• one was, that the evidence could not he relied on,
that the police had spoken as to the identity of the prisoner, in
one instance, and in another they had stated that he was un-
known to them.--(Hear, hear, hear.) In his opinion
the Counsel for the prosecutor ought to have directed
the attention of the Chief Justice to the discrepancies in the
evidence, which had not been done; under all the circumstances
he thought the prerogative of mercy should be exercised as it
was in the case of Connor.—(Cheers.) Now, if Honour-
able Gentleman, after that, would say that the case was
sufficient to establish a charge of misconduct against the
Government, he for one should be callous during the
whole of his life to am thing that any such
persons might say or do.—( Great cheering.) Did the Soli.
citor- General dissent from the opinion that had been expressed
by the Attorney-General. So far from it, he fully concurred
in the Report that he had made. Such was the case in which,
according to the statements of the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentlemen, the senteece had been commuted upon the letter
of the Priest—( Tremendous cheering)—the party writing
that letter having met with nothing but rebuke.—( Cheers. )
Was it to be said that the Lord Lieutenant was not to refer in
such cases to the Law Advisers of the Crown? If it was, he
shoul.llike to know from the constitetional quarter from which
such an opinion emanated, who were the men, and what their
character, to whom he was to apply. Ile had now given
to the [louse, a specimen of the cases upon which charges had
been founded against the Administration of the Marquis of
Normanby.—(Cheers.) The case to which lie had advertee,
was the best that cool:( be discovered after the voluminous re-
search that had been made, and it had been brought forward
by the other side, at the risk of the Government not having
documents at hend.—( Cheers. ) It was upon such statements
es these, that charges were brought forward against the Go-
vernment, nods r the hope that the documents vouch-
ing for their truth or falsity would not be at
hand, and in order that these statements might be
drank in and swallowed up as they were by the cheers of last
night.—( Great cheering.) Who was it that brought forward
these cases, and made these egregioui mistakes ?—( Cheers. )
Why, a gentleman filling the high and important office of a
Learned Judge—( Great cheering)—one who was bound to admi-
nister the law in justice and in mercy—(lncreased cheers)—and
one - who expected from others in authority that impar-
tiality which he claimed for his own decision —(Loud
and long continued cheeriug)—that Learned officer had
probably had more confidential communications with the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland on the subject of sentences than any other
functionary in Ireland.—(Cheers.) And yet he could not
from his own ample experience select any ease to bring for-
ward to the attention of the House, but was driven to make
the preposterous selection he had done.—( Tremendous cheer-
ing.) It was not from any fear of the inquiry that the Mar-
quis of Normanby had declined in the other House, and that
he declined in that, to have the documents of the Govern-
ment ransacked by a hostile, and it might his an em-
bittered tribunal.—( Increased cheering.) After such a
gigantic misrepresentation, as the one that had been made—
( Great cheering)--after such an unblushing misrepresentation
—(continued cheering)—it would be unnecessary for him to
allude to any of the minor points of the speech of the Learned
Recorder, but when, in answer to the speech of the Solicitor-
General for Ireland, the Learned Recorder had challenged him
to name a single Lawyer, junior to Mr. Justice Perrin, who
had received a silk gown, though his (Lord Morpeth's)
memory did not serve him in such proceedings, e'et he
had been told by his Learned Friend, and upon
that information he implicitly relied, that Lord Chief
Justice Doherty, who was called to the bar subsequent to
Mr. Justice Perrin, had received a silk gown before him.
( cheers.) Mr. Warren was called to the bar subsequent to
that Learned Judge, and bad a silk gown before him.—(ln-
creased cheering.) So, likewise, with respect to Mr. Cramp-
ton and Mr. North, both of whom had been called to
to the bar subsequent to Mr. Justice Perrin, but received silk
gowns before him.—( Continued cheering.) Having said so
much on that part of the subject he would now mak-, a few
observations upon the statements that had been made with
respect to a Gallant and worthy Officer. It was seldom that'
debates occurred in the House upon Irish subjects without
aspersions being thrown upon Captain Duff, and the conduct
of the Government. Now, in justification of the conduct of
that officer, he felt bound to read somedocuments to the House.
In justice to that officer he could net refrain froth stating that
he (Captain Duff) had received a letter from the late lamented
Earl of Caledon, written in the highest strain of praise. He
had similar documents, but he did not think it necessary then
to trouble the House with them. Ho could assure the House,
however, that when the Irish Government had any difficult
or arduous duties to perform, they had no officer under them
whom they would more gladly trust.—(Cheers.) However
he would rather call the attention of the House to general
general principles and broad results than confine it to special
circumstances, he had never attempted to dissemble while he
had always deplored the existence of crime to a great extent in
certain parts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It, however,
was eery partial, and was not confined to any pare
ticulser district or to any religious demarcation of the
W./nd.—(Cheers,) In the counties of Londonderry, Ferma-
nagh, and Down, crime was light ; these were the northern,
and usually called the Protestant counties, but so also was it in
Kerry, Cork, and Waterford, and these were strictly Catholie
counties. The charge of Mr. Justice Barton, at the last Fer-
manaeh Assizes went to show that the offences were then merely
of the usual character—no doubt the number of prosecutions
bad greatly increased, in consequence of the alteration in the,
Criminal Code, whereby punishments had „been greatly les-
sened. and prosecutions greatly augmented, fhei.heard a great
deal of the great number of crimes committed in Ireland,- but
he would ask the House to give their attention to
the state of crime in the first Report of the
Commissioners, who were appointed to inquire into the
necessity for an improved police throughout England and
Wales.—(Hear,
hear.) He was not at that moment recom-
mending any of their recommendations, but they stated that
upon the average of five years there were upwards of 100,0110
able-bodied labourers committed for criminal offences. He
had never attempted to dissemble that in certain districts in
Ireland there existed certain illegal associations ; but
he would challenge any one to deny that the pre-
sent state of Ireland would contrast favourably
with its state at any former period. The GovernMent had
acted according to the power given them as effectually as any
former Administration ; they had endeavoured to plan the sti-
pendary Magistrates en whom they could place reliance in the
most exposed and difficult situations —( Hear, hear). When he
had last addressed the House upon that subject, he had en-
deavoured, and he believed he had succeeded, in showing that
the number of convictions as contrasted with that of committals
was greater than at any former period. By a table which he
had then in his hand, he found thatin the Spring Assizes of 1836,
the number of acquittals were 225, while the prisoners found
guilty amounted to 346. At the Summer Assizes, there were
161 acquittals to 270 convictions; 1837, Spri ig Assizes,
323 acquittals to 518 convictions; Summer Assizes, 188
acquittals to 291 convictions ; in 1838, Spring Assizes,
381 acquittals to 495 convictions; Summer Assizes, 131
acquittals to 295 convictions; and at the late Assizes for 1839
there were 256 acquittals to 539 convictions ; that there hid
been a gradual increase in the number of canvictions, as corn-
pared with the number of committals. The Poor-law which
had been pasted last Session had been introduced under very
auspicious circumstances. He had a letter from the resident
Commissioner in Ireland, in which he said that the
Board of Guardians which had been formed were
in no respect below those which had been
formed in England, and that the law was working well—in
fact, that his suceess had greatly exceeded his expectations.—
(Cheers.) Allusion had also been made in the course of the
debate to the increase in the value of land in Ireland,
the security or the insecurity of life and property would
be best developed by the prices of land and the pro-
duce of the soil of Ireland. He had caused letters
to be addressed to land agents in Ireland indiscriminately,
without any attention at all to their political or religious
opinion.—(Cheers.) In reply, Mr. Kemyss, of Kildare-street,
stated that he could only go back to the year 1821, and that then
the price of land was 16i years' purcse, while in 1837 it had
risen to 23 years' purchase. Mr. —__ stated that 15
years ago land was worth only 16 years' purchase, that
it was 10 years ago worth from 16 to 18 years pur-
chase, that 5 years ago it was worth from 18 to 23
years' purchase, at which price it remained at present.
Another letter from Armagh spoke of twenty-five years' pur-
chase being the value of land. Mr. Henry Bruce, in another
letter, said he had no hesitation in saving that there was a gra-
dual increase in the value of land all over Ireland. Another
gentleman stated that land in the neighbourhood of Galway •
had generally been of the value of twenty years' purchase, but
now it had advanced, and, in some instances, it was of the value
of twenty-five, and in others of twenty-seven years'
purchase. In another letter from a Surveyor it was
states! that, having had great experience in the purchase and
sale of land, he knew that land was progressively advancing in
Ireland.' From another letter it appeared that the value of
shares in the different Companies in Ireland had been for some
time past gradually rising. He would not detain the House
longer by detailing the result of communications of this descrip-
tion. The lion. Member for the county of Donegal had asked
last night to whom the Government would appeal for an opinion
of their conduct--whether they would appeal to the bar—to the
commerce, or to the general landed interest. In answer to
that he would say, that they would appeal to those who included
all, viz., the people—(Cheers)—and if the confidence andgood-
will of the people were to be allowed to form an element at all
in the composition of a successful Government, he would just
beg leave to ask on which side were they? Were the bulk of
the people with them or against them ? Was it only the
number—was it only the least educated and the least opulent
classes that were ranged on their side? He should be very well
content to take the wealth of the City of Dublin alone on that
score.—(Cheers.) Was it the Catholic party alone that rallied
round them for their adherence to that banner which had been
called the banner of party laws ? If they had the bulk of the
people with them were they then without the leaders of the
aristocraoy ? If they had the sufferance of the south, had they
no adherence of the north ? On whose side were the patriotic
associations linked with the name of Charlemont? If this was to
decide it, their case was already won.--( Hear, hear.) He
need not refer to the papers on the table to prove that their
opinions rested upon the Members of the sister country—the
Members of Scotland and of England, and it was to them they
made their appeal that night, and not to She calls alone
which proceeded from the Irish shores. If they looked
at the particular language, or particular conduct of
certain individuals in Ireland it was to be remembered
that those individuals were kindled by the wrath of national
feeling, and sharpened by the conviction of wrong.—( Cheers.)
He of course abstained from entering into any question of more
general policy. Ireland was not only the battle-field on which
the question of the present Administration had been fought, but
almost all the chief conflicts of party had taken place in
reference to Ireland exclusively.—( Hear, hear.) Questions
of a far mare wide inference and general result had been put
forward by parties on the ground of Ireland, but it had been on
this specific occasion singled out and selected as the field on
stigma upon them ; else what could
waohdiclti) taoffidaamstaigeahtildseiorgeputation of her Majesty's Government
be the meaning of the recent demonstration in the House
of Lords, even taking that demonstration by the name by
which it had been found convenient to call it.—( Hear, hear.)
They must now at least be guided by the words of the amend-
and they might look at it according to the words that
ble to it, " willing to wound but yet afraid to strike."—
(Hear, supplied by the Hon. Member fer Belfast as applica-
hteoarw. )hat Or,s perhaps,thought thewyasmigaht
mroergeardacicturaaCte-
6iTtrederparinrktation of it, as an attempt to supersede the Govern-

of that debate, offered any peculiar temptation to her 31sjeety's
Ministers to enter upon any ground of comparatively amicable
arrangement. Their colleagues in the other House of
Parliament, perhaps, felt that there would be great in.
convenience resulting from the appointment of a Corn.
mittee, which would disturb the ordinary business of the
public department, and call functionaries from their avocations,
irom which they could very ill be spared : besides the graver
Tnconvemenee of causing all important as well as all frivolous
matters—all the most delicate as well as the most obvious con-
siderations connected with the administration of justice, and
even with the management of private property, they may have
felt there .was serious (and he was inclined to think incal-
culable) inconvenience in having such matters pried into
and pored over before a Committee, which must
necessarily carry on its inquiries hit by bit, by snatches, and at
intervals—but mainly they could not shut their eyes to this
consideration, that as it was most manifest from the whole
tenor of the debate, and from the nature of the charges brought
forward, that not oniy the prevailing character and cause of
crime (and it might be the leading principles and gale-
ral conduct of the Irish Administration) but also
every specific instance of the exercise of the prerogative
of mercy for the last four years—any appointment of an indi-
vidual to any situation, however humble or trifling, for the last
four years—in shot, that the whole routine of the Government
for the same period was to be conned over, and criticised and
adjudicated upon by a tribunal before which the
parties mainly 'interested would not have ' condescended
to attend the impression must have been created on the
public mind generally, and on the mind of the Irish public cc-
pecially, that the whole controul and responsibility of the Exe-
cutive Government was about to be entrusted to a different
agency from their own, and to be dictated by principles other
than those which the Government entertained, which
they had endeavoured to act upon, and to which
as lung as they might be intrusted with the reins of
power they would adhere.—( Cheers. ) Why if Noble Lords
and Gentlemen opposite really and actually believed a tithe of
what they had no scruple in expressing—(Hear. hear)—if any
portion of the big words will which they were pleased to
till their mouths—(lronical cheers from the Conservatives)—
if any portion of the charges and criminations with which they
were pleased to fill their mouths—(Cheers from the same quer-
ter)—were capable of being substantiated, the impropriety of
the late proceeding wonld appear in colours still more manifest
and glaring. Enough had been stated twenty times over to
warrant he did not know how many impeachments.—(Cheers
and counter che. rs).—The Learned Sergeant opposite (Ser-
geant Jackson), he saw, cordially and fully assented to that.—
( Cheers.) Enough had been stated to warrant a dozen
impeachments against the Marquis of Normanby, against
himself, who had been charged with the execution of many
of his directions, and against the whole Government, who ac-
quiesced in, and sanctioned them, as they proved by continuing
him in office.---( Hear, hear.) But a Committee of the House
of Lords was not the proper tribunal to digest matters fur arbi-
trary impeachment; on the contrary, there would be a most
uncomaitutienel tendency in such a body being called on
to - sift and inquire into charges which the members
of that body might afterwards be called . upon
to consider and adjudicate as Judges. The tender of their re-
signations might have been a fair consideration; but consider-
ing the circumstances under which Lord Melbourne was called
to office, and those under which he had since been sustained in
it by the general eupeort of that House upon all essential points,
he thought it was due to that House, and fair to the country,
upon a prominent point of the policy of that Govern-
ment, the subject, perhaps, of moreconti
of
.cts tbhisananyothe
that had occurred dm ing the whole period
Administra-
tion—it was fair, he thought, that they should take the best
mea. s to ascertain whether on this ground of their policy the
representatives of the people who called the Government to
power still sided with them or with their accusers.--( Cheers. )
He did not think it necessary to go at such lengths as for-
merly, into particular cases, but there were some upon which
he must offer a few observations. It was a satisfaction to him
upon the last occasion, e when the conduct of the Irish
Government was brought under the consideration of
the House, till the period when his apprehensions were
relieved by the process of counting out—it was satisfactory
to him that almost all the cases which were brought forward
and attempted to be urged against the Irish Government, were
either so very old in their date or so stale in their texture as.to
have been repeatedly before discussed, and, as he thought, sa-
tisfactorily disposed of ; and very much the same character ap-
plied to the cases which had been brought forward during the
present debate. Perhaps the most notice had been called to
to the exercise of the prerogative of mercy. In respect to one
branch of the subject, the liberation of prisoners by the Lord
Lieutenant, he must remind the House that the cases of this
83
d
an were then m the
kind occurred in the year 16,
subject of distinct and prolonged iniestigation inade both
Houses of Parliament, and, after hearing the explanations
furnished by Lord Nortninby and himself, neither House felt
itself cawed upon to take any step or to offer any opinion upon
the transactions alluded to.—( Hear, hear.) The Lord Lieu-
tenant of li-clan:l never contemplated that the practice which
had been referred to would form a part in any permanent sys-
tem. But he did think that in the peculiar condition of the
country, then in an acknowledged stale of improvement, what-
ever may have been the case since, it might be worth while to
make an experiment as to the effect of bringing home
mercy directly to the eyes ofa those in whose favour it was
exercised, and to try whether a softening effect could not
be impressed on the pubic mind in those districts. Whether
that experiment had failed or not, it had not been repeated.—
(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) Was it then imputed as
an offence ? Was that the charge ?—( Cries of " No, no,"
from the same quarter.) Why, then, that taunting cheer ?
( Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.) It seemed that the
exercise of the prerogative of mercy was the only selject on
which there was no statute of limitations ; and that the exertion
of clemency was the only offense which was inexpiable and
utiforgiven.a4 Loud cheers.) From returns to that House, it
appeared that under the Insurrection Act in 1824, there were
1,707 persons committed in one county, of whom 271 were
convicted, and 78 punished, so that 1,437 innocent persons suf-
fered incarceration—(lronical cheers from the Opposition )
at letst 1,437 persons innocent in the eye of the law, as having
been unconvicted,—(Hear, hear.) A pretty plentiful shower
of imprisonments for persons convicted of no crime.—( Hear,
bear. ) . Now with regard to the county of Sligo, a letter
which he (Lord. Morpeth) had received from a Magistrate of
that county stated that the effect of the Lord Lieutenant's visi-
tation had been such as he , nticipated, and that no person
liberated by him bed since been charged with any offence
against the law—(Cheers--and a similar statement had been
• made by the Inspector of Prisons, a Protestant Clergyman.—
( Hear, bear.) Certainly matters had grown much worse
in Sligo since—( Hear, hear, and cheers)—and he had listened
to Le Hon. and Gallant Member (Colonel Perceval) with
great sympathy. The deteriorated state of that county had
arisen from the ex, iteznent p reduced 'during the late contested
election, and it was lamentable enough that such consequences
shoul:i result from such causes. With regard to the conspi-
racy against Mr. Sims, no blame assuredly could be imputed
to the Government, by whom every aid required had been
granted. Now some cases had been stated by the Right lion.
and Learned Recorder (Mr. Shaw) last night, wh.ch had pro-
duced
a great impression on the House. rho Hots. and Learned
Gentleman had now set out for the Irish metropolis, to ashen-
water justice. And this he (Lord Morpeth) would say of
him, that the Government were the only p rties whom he did
not treat with justice and impartiality. —( Hear, hear.) He
had asked the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman for his
names, thinking iteight that accusers should as far as pos-
sible be pinned to names, though, of course, he could not
tell whet her he should be able to supply documentary ex-
planation, and he owned that as to some he should not be
able to produce such explanation. As to the case of Brennan
he had consulted the Lord Lieutenant, who had not been able
to recollect any such name ; of course the case would be inquired
into. The only case of the name of which he had been able to
tied a trace, was one so altogether dissimilar from that stated
by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that it could not be
the same. The case was one of forgery. The Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had stated the prisoner had a son at Maynooth.
In the only case of a person named Brennan, who had been
convicted of forgery and sentenced to transportation, of which
he had been able to discover any records, a memorial had been
transmitted to the Lord Lieutenant from the gentry of the
county, stating thrir confidence that atthe time of the commis-
sion of the offence the individual in question had a full intention
of making reparation, and praying a commutation of the sentence.
That memorial had been referred to the Learned Judge who had
tried the case, Baron Pennefather, who in his report recom-
mended that the sentence should be committed to two years'
imprisonment, and on his recommendation the commuted
punishment had been carried into effect.—(Loud cheers.)
'l'hese circumstances differed so entirely from those of the case
stated last night bs the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that he
thought he must have referred to some other case which might,
perhaps, hereafter conic to light. But the ease on which the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman seemed most to rely, was the ease of
Gahan, and if he (Lord Morpeth) could rightly read the coun-
tenances of Gentlemen opposite, and could.form any judgment
of the effect produced on the House, that was the case that
was relied on as most effective against the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) The Hun. and
Learned Gentleman had said, let us suppose the ease
of- a prisoner convicted of an aggravated assault, the
Judge who triee him resists any application for mercy,
wad determines that the law shall 'take its coterie
a Roman Catholic priest, the brother of the prlsodneer,
and
letsbae
letter to the Lord Lieutenant libelling e
potion of his brother
prisoner, on whom the Judge hadhe deteieasihnedutog let the law
take its course, is liberated that man, said
was Gahan. It was true
the Roman Catholic priest;
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,oannd thea-iiame of
d and sentenced to seven years'
that Gahan had been c
moueinviourial had been presented from
transportation. on.
stat : A
she prisoner thathe had been deprived of the benefit
.ng
eiteesses in consequence of his trial haying come
of h inseas
pectedly—the Jury also recommended him to the con-
siderationu of the Lord Lieutenant, and stated, that if his wit.
nest es bad been produced at the trial they would have recom-
mended him to the Judge.—(Laughter from the Opposition
benches.) The Lord Lieutenant referred the memorial to the
Learned Judge who tried the case, who reported that he saw
no reasiin for a commutation of the
sentence,
and the Lord
Lieutenant made the following minute on the memorial,
" Let the law take its
(
course. Loud cheering.)
Another memorial was addressed to the Lord Lieu-
tenant from the prisoner'*
brother, a Catholic Priest,
in which certainly some most unwarrantable expressions were
Judge
made use of with regard to thewe hhad tried the case,
and on this a minute was made
y th
I • Lord Lieutenant to
reques' Chief Justice Doherty to furnish Tn. with his notes of
the case, as
a conviction had taken place at the previous
accomplice of the prisoner, ea which
assist's of an
Justice Moore, Nrecommended
that tried the case, had
should be extended,
that a pardon
of the policeman as he
did not
consider the evidence
entitled to credit, un
which the
conviction took place, was
applicant, stating that and
that a letter
should be written to the
.Judees which nt •at no memorials
were ever referred to the
and that any alund matter that
could be painful to them,
and therefore sneer, however slight,
must be offensive to them,
state that most displeasing to I
the Lord Lieutenant.
He h
t mightlsy mistake tha that memorial was '
sent to Chief Justice Do er yered,
that the t an explanation
was made, and an apology of apology was not ac-
thened corr
eepted, which led to e
and he would not now
which at
length terminated, a
the feelings of cation
w .elvish to revive
what must be painful to
is a
lication was ustice Doherty
and Lord Normanby. Th PP
1, for liberating the . unattended to,
and no step was titeen
d backed from prisoner until other
memorials were presente e
wo
members
of the county, so
that it was not priestly influenceb
oucTbtbut Parliamentary in-
fluence also, which had been brought operate on the mind
' had
of the Lord Lieutenant.
stepsnted by the been taken in conse-
quence, which were not war_ra_ _ circumstances of the
case. The first memorial the Lord Lieutenant referred to the
t that there were no eircum•
Judge, w h o had repor
Thetncee war-
e object ionao e letter from his
ranting a commu tation.ed
a sharp rebuke, and
brother had brought down no steps had
been taken in consequence. On the presentation of other me-
morials detailing circumstances not before mentioned, the
Lord Lieutenant thought it his duty to refer all the documents
to the legal advisers of the Crown, and they were referred to
the Attorney and Solicitor- General for Ireland, in order that
they might investigate the circumstances of the case. It ap-
peared that a man who had been a party to the same assault
had been tried at the previous Assizes before Judge Moore,
who had reported to the Lord-lieutenant that he did not con-
sider had appeared as witnesses against 1 •
sider the 'policemen who s um
were worthy of credit, and that the sentence ought not to be
carried into effect.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It appeared that
the se se witnesses tied been brought forward against
the priomer, and the report of the Attorney-General was, that
having read Chief Justice Doherty's report upon the cases of
Daly and Gahan referred to, the assault had occurred in October

ment in their doe conduct and controul of the Executive Go-
vernment of Ireland, and to substitute another of their own,
at variance with it, in its place. At all events, they were now
determined to have the point ale fired up. The Government
would no longer accept their commentary, or their gloss,
or their palliation. They were determined to leave no room
for farther ambiguity. They had had enough of partial attacks,
isolated innendoes, abuses, and motions for papers here and
Committees there—( Hear, hear)—but they had now come
before the House of Commons for a direct opinion, and they
would take no low ground—they would exist no longer upon
sufferance—( Immense cheering and laughter from the Oppo-
sition, which continued for two or three minutes)—on
the paint on which they had been called out and challenged
to the combat —( Vehement cheering)—they would not put up
with a tacit acquiescence, they would not even be content with
acquittal. The Noble Lord that night asked Members for a
direct and distinct vote of approbation.—(Much cheerin,r.)
In the " name of the Irish Government, and the whole

Government as implicated in its Irish policy, he
asserted fearlessly that they had deserved well of
their country.—( Renewed cheering.) Upon that issue,
stoutly maintained, and not to be shrunk by them, however
it might be scouted and jeered by the opposite party—on that
issue he called upon them, the Commons of the empire, to
come that night to a vote.—( Vehemement cheering for some
minutea.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, the Noble Lord who
had just sat down, had expressed an opinion that the
House should tense to a vote that night, and he wished he
could j him in that anticipatien. Although not imme-
diately connected with Ireland, he hoped the House would
pardon him, if, before the question AVAS brought to a vote,
even at that late hour, he would venture to address
it. He certainly would not presume to follow the No-
ble Lord into the details with respect to the state of
Ireland, on which he had most properly entered—but
considering that the latter part of his speech had
intimated that her Majesty's Government would consider the
present a direct vote of approbation—that they could no
longer consent to exist by forbearence, and that the Noble
Lord had announced to the Members fur London and Finsbury
that her Majesty's Ministers bad come to the determination no
longer to govern by their endurance, or to exist by tacit for-
bearance, he would venture to offer some observations on the
present state of affairs. He had endeavoured in the course of
that long and protracted debate to form some con-
jecture as to the real motive of the Noble Lord's mo-
tion. He had been in great doubt on the subject—(Cheers
and laughter). The motion was unprecedented. although he
believed the Noble Lord continued to rely upon the single pre-
cedent of the Scotch warrants, which he was sure the
Noble Lord would not forget.—(lronical cheers.) Find-
ing the motion unprecedented, he certainly continued
to doubt what the real motion of the Noble Lord was;
he suspected the object was to pick a quarrel with the
House of Lords. The Noble Lord seemed to think it desirable
to steal a rote of approbation from a bare majority Of that
House upon the only point on which they could ask it—( Cheers
from bath sides of the House)—for the purpose of propping
up a weak and tottering Administration.—( Loud cheers
and laughter.) Now, if the Noble Lord really believed that
the effect of the vote of to-night would be to perpe-
tuate that Administration, he could understand his
conduct ; the motive would justify the unexampled
effort. But having heard the speech of the Honourable
Member fur London—havingheard the doelarati.ms made from
various quarters on the opposite side of the House, male of them
the most powerful supporters of her Majesty's Administration,
on the present occasion—and having heard the declaration of
the Noble Lord (wh eh he had heard with sincere pleasure)
on the subject of the representation of the people—he
was convinced that the days of the Administration
opposite him were numbered. That it was about to fall—not
from any attack from its enemies—not from any hostile effort
on that side of the House—(Laughter and cheering)—but
from an honest division of opinion on matters of great national
interest; and then he asked himself how did they justify the
vote of the present evening ? A quarrel with the House of
Lords was dangerous in its consequences, and if it
did not save the Administration what pod did it do—it was
but a cordial administered to a dying man which could not
prolong his existence.—(Hear and cheers.) lie felt the ut-
most difficulty in arguing the question, for the speech of his
Right Hon. Friend, three nights ago, had placed the subject. in
every possible view, and after the efforts of three nights, it still
remained unanswered. The Noble Lord who had just sat down
said he would argue the question, first, on the necessity of
the motion ; and, secondly, on the propriety of its terms. lie
w‘is prepared to join issue with him on both points. He con-
tended that the resolution of the House of Lords could not be
construed as a censure upon her Majesty's Government. It
stated that life wad property were insecure, but it did
not ascribe that state to the policy of her Majesty's
Ministers. No doubt grave accusations were brought against

them ; but where the statements were so contradictory
inquiry was absolutely necessary. Why the inquiry into the
appointment of Sheriffs last year was as much directed against
Lord Normanby's Government as Lord Roden's motion. The
Noble Lord could not forget the conduct of Government on the
Canada Indemnity Bill last year. What was the declaration
of Lord Melbourne on that occasion? On the 9th of August
he declared that the disallowing the Ordinance Bill would be
destructive of the moral effect of the Government, and almost
the same as terminating the connection between the colony and
the mother country, and he would never be a party to it.
The Ilouse of Lords, however, passed the Bill, and next day the
Government took up the meaeure, and adopted it as their own.
He believed that a very large portion of those accusations were
true—(Cheers)--and that the statements that hadbeen brought
forward, and the recriminations, were so grave and pressing as
to render inquiry indispensable.—( Cheers. ) The inquiry had
been instituted already by a competent tribunal, an indepen-
dant branch of the Legislature ; and the Right Hon. Bart. had
absolutely denied, and with due force and justi^e, the political
right of that House to interfere or interrupt. He would
now say a felt words respecting the motion of the
Noble Lord. That motion was absolutely useless, unless per-
haps they meant to intimidate the House of Lords by a vote of
the House of Commons.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord had
gone over the same topics as the Solicitor-General for Ireland,
respecting the distribution of the legal patronage in Ireland by
his Right Hon. Friend. He (Sir J. Graham) was net very
intimately acquainted with the subject, but perhaps the Noble
Lord would explain why Mr. Dogherty and Mr. Shaw had been
promoted befot e Mr. Sergeant Perrin. lie (Sir J. Graham)
found that. in former times the pre motion of barristers was
the result of the faithful discharge of their dirties in the
face of power. There was then no short cut to promotion--
no direct stepping from the Corn Exchange to the Castle
--(Cheers)—nor was it a recommendation thet a Learned Bar-
rister had been the advocate of a National Associantion.—
(Cheers.) Bat the Hon: and Learned Gentleman, in cone-
iognorance of Scotch affairs, had charged the Right Hon.
lohworiet with past:tatty in,thechstribution of legal patronage in
+Scetland.., Such -a thing was, unknown in Scotland i• the only
objects of legal ambition were judicial appointments, and, in-
deed, he found that the House could with difficulty restrain
its indignation when the Right Hon. Baronet had been charged
with being influenced by political motives in selecting Judges
for Scotland—in the face of the fact that when the office of
Chief Baron of Scotland was vacant his Right Hon. Friend
appointed to that high place a learned and distinguished Scots-
man of eminent abilities, but a political opponent of his, an
honest Whig partizan. And the names of Lord Corehouse,
Lord Eldin, and Lord Moncrief would go down to p-sterity as
splendid evidences of the strict and honourable impartiality
of his Right Honourable Friend in selecting Judges for the
Bench of Scotland. Ho would refer to sumo expressions
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a former evening, but
first he would remark upon the assertion of the Noble Lord,
that nothing would satisfy her Majesty's Government, but a
direct adoption of their policy. His Right Honourable Friend
had said with great justice, that the motion of the Noble Lord
was mest vague and inexplicable. He asked whether the Noble
Lord meant by it to impugn the Government of Lord Grey,
Lord Anglesea, of Lcrd Iladdington, and Lord Plun-
kett; he asked what their principles were—" tell us
what you mean before you press us to vote for it." But all the
answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was that the course
was neither direct, nor safe, nor honourable, but that he pre-
ferred it because it was most inconvenient to their opponents.—
(Cheers.) He would ask was this right or constitutional, or
was it to be believed that in the present state of affairs
the opposite party were to be prepared to rush into collision
with the House of Lords merely for the sake of embarras-
sing their opponents?—(Cheers.) When the Right Honour-
able Gentleman spoke of Ireland being always threatened
by an opposition, he seemed to have forgotten how powerfully
and effectually Mr.i Grattan, Lord Plunkett, and Lord Brougham
had wielded that weapon. He (Sir J. Graham) for himself, had
fought by the side of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and fought
honestly and sincerely, in behalf of the Catholic claims, and on
the same principles which had so long kept Lord Grey and Mr.
Tierney out of office ; surely then there was no grounds for the
insinuation of a hypocritical pretext, as had been advanced
against him and his friends by the Right Honourable
Gentleman. The suspicious feeling must have been
taken up since he ( Sir James Graham) lied acted
with him, and, perhaps, had some connexion with
the appropriation clause, or some other motion concocted, at
Lichfield House.—( Cheers.) Now, with respect to the
second part of the position of the Noble Lord, namely, that
the motion was proper and requisite, he would •ay that no-
thing was more necessary than an inquiry into the state of
Ireland—in order to show why it was that the people, who
were most kind, generous, and warm-hearted—who were brave
beyond example—compassionate in the most tender degree,
and so charitable that the poor were ever ready to
share their last potatoe with those who were more
needy still—( Hear, bear,)—why it was that, murders, assas-
sinations, surrounded with circumstances of premeditated
cruelty and atrocity which made one turn- aside with horror
and shame for the dishonour of human nature—why it was
that such deeds should prevail amongst such a people
and such a country ? (Hear, hear, and great cheering. )
That was a great moral inquiry, which no time should be
lost in prosecuting—(Cheers)—besides, there was a great po-
litical and statistical inquiry which should be instituted. He
wanted to know why it was that in Ireland a dense population,
subsisting I eitneipally by spade husbandry, and occupying small
portions of land, it should be considered the curse of that coun-
try, and a great cause of poverty and destitution, while in Bel-
gium, vsith a soil not more fertile—a climate not more genial
—a population more dense, relying principally on spade
husbandry, and occupying still smaller patches of land,
the inhabitants were in the enjoyment of peace, abundance, and
prosperity, to n. degree that delighted the passing beholder ?
(Cheers. ) These were great subjects for inquiry, and what
tribunal was more fitted to investigate these subjects than the
House of Lords, comprising the great Irish landowners, such
as the Duke of Leinster, and Lord Lansdowne, and Noblemen of
such talent as Lords Plunket and Brougham—( Hear, hear)
—in the presence,:too, of the party chiefly implicated?—(" No,
no," from the Ministerial benches.) Was it to be understood
that the Marquis of Normanby had resigned from the Com-
mittee.—(" Most assuredly," from Lord John Russell.) Well,
all he could say was, that the inquiry would be prosecuted as
fairly in the absence of the Noble Marquis as in his presence—
(lronieal cheers from the Ministerial side)—and he hoped that
the House of Lords woeld not be deterred from the inquiry by
the peevish resignation of Lord Normanby.—(Opposition
cheers.) It was impossible to forget the murder of Lord Nor-
bnry.—( Hear.) No doubt " property has its duties as well as its
rights ;" though he questioned the wisdom of publishing such
a declaration at the present crisis.—( Hear, hear.) But the
murder of Lord Norbury proved that the most faithful dis-
charge of those duties—the aaost unbounded generosity—the
most constant residence, were no protection from the assassin's
aim,—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet then referred to the
visitation of Lord Normanby, and animadverted upon the libera-
tion of twenty prisoners in one day by mere oral order, and re-
ferred to several cases. In one case the Right Hon. Baronet
said &prisoner bad been tried and found guilty by two juries;
sentence having been passed, application was made for remis-
sion. The Judge saw no reason to recede from the opinion
given for pronouncing sentence; and it appeared to him most
extraordinary that the matter should be referred to the officers
of the Crown—(Hear)—and that that opinion should be acted
upon by the Lord Lieutenant.—( Hear.) Sometimes the Lord
Lieutenant granted pardon without consulting the Judges, and
sometimes set aside their opinions, and preferred private
solicitation to judicial authority. 'With restao.t to the state of
crime the Noble Lord had referred to the statements of
the Judge. Now he would allude to the statement of an un-
exceptionable witness, Judge Burton. He said he could net
imagine anything more alarming than the prevalence of crime—
the crime of premeditated and concerted assasination
but if there was anything that could tend to aggravate
this state of things, it was the disposition evinced by certain
persons to screen such criminals. And the Attorney-General
said the Calendar demonstrated to him t hat there could be no
doubt of the lamentable fact, that in no place was human life