The Sun.
London, England, 1837-06-10 00:00:00

TITHES (IRELAND) BILL.

Lord MO RPETH moved the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. Sl' A RM AN CR A WFOR D immediately rose, and
proceeded to address the House at considerable length, but
his voice was scarcely heard above the loud tone of conversa-
tion indulged in by the rest of the House. In opposing the
second reading of the Bill he was acting conscientiously, and
from a deep sense of duty, and not from any desire to impede
the measure of his Majesty's Government, whose great services
to Ireland he most readily acknoWledged. He begged to
move as an amendment that this Bill be read a second time
this day six months.
Mr. D. 131Z0 WNE felt that it was a duty he owed to him-
self and to his country to second the amendment of his Hon.
Hon. Friend. He considered that the Bill, instead of reliev-
ing the people of Ireland from an unjust impost, tended to
rivet that impost upon them, and to increase discontent and
promote agitation in that country. He might be asked why
he opposed this Bill, when he did not oppose the Bill of
last session. His answer was, that he considered the omis-
sion of the appropriation clause in the present Bill to make
it essentially a different measure from the Bill of last year.
He might be told that in the money provisions of the Bill now
before them there was an equivalent for the appropria-
tion clause ; but having considered these clauses well, he
certainly could not find any thing in them equivalent to the
principle of the appropriation clause. The lion. Gentleman
concluded by declaring that he was opposed to the tithe
system, because, as a Christian, he conceived that it could not
be defended upon any human or divine principle.
Viscount MORPETH said it was obvious that the Bills
which the present Government had successively introduced
upon the subject of the Irish Church hal had to stand between
two classes of objections—between the objections of those who
thought that too much was taken from the Church, and of
those who thought that too little was taken away, or, at least,
that too much was left. It was obvious—without stopping to

inquire which of these respective parties were most in the
right—whether those who thought that too much was tarn
away, or those who thought that too little was taken ; or
whether it was for the Government, at least upon this subject,
to indulge itself in the opinion that it had happily pursued
the " just middle"—it was obvious, he said, that the struggle
on this question was not between the Government and the
friends of the voluntary system, or the " sons of liberty,"
which, it seemed, was the right way to term them, but be-
tween the Government and those who were entirely op-
posed to any alteration of the Church Revenues. For
this struggle, probably, before very long, the stage would be
cleared, and a decided course taken. For that occasion.
whenever it should arise, he thought himself justified in reserv.
ing the discussion of those points which appeared to be the
serious and really practical part of the matter they were called
upon to consider. With respect, then, to the other side of the
question—that which was represented on this occasion by his
two Hon. Friends, the mover and seconder of the amendment,
and which rested, as it appeared to him, upon the ground that
tithes ought to be completely abolished, that no form of r di-
gion in Ireland ought to receive a preference from the State,.
and that the voluntary system ought to be established—he had
only to observe, that whether that system possessed any merits
or not, or whether the arguments by which it was defended
were sound or not, such were not the views and intentions with
which his Nlajesty's present Government had entered upon
office.. His Hon. Friend the Member for Dundalk had ob-
jected to this Bill on the ground that it was not the same Bill
which he had previously supported. lie (Lord Morpeth) ad-
mitted it was not the same Bill. He should have been
very glad if the Legislature bad passed any one of those
previous Bills. His Honourable Friend must be perfectly
aware that it was not the fault of the Government
that none of those Bills were carried into a law. His Hon.
Friend made two objections to the Bill in its present cha-
racter—first, that the clauses now introduced would not be so
efficient to prevent sinecures in the Church as the former Bill;
and also that under the present Bill the farmers of some dis-
tricts would feel a grivance in having money taken out of their
pockets to benefit those in other places. He contended, how-
ever, that the object of the Bill was to prevent sinecure livings,
and it would attain that object by promoting a better appor-
tioning of Church property. The lion. Member for Dundalk
said that it was a hardship on the clergy to impose a tax of 10
per cent. on the present incumbents ; but he ( Lord Morpeth )
could not help feeling that his Honourable Friend was a little
inconsistent. His Honourable Friend said he was in favour
of the voluntary principle, but he would not be able to
carry that principle into effect at once; and this was to be
effected by the abolition of tithes.—( Hear, hear.) His
Honourable Friend out of doors stated that he would attain
that end by not bringing in any measure for the settlement
of the tithe question, and to be consistent he had proposed
that the Bill should be read a second time that day six months.
He (Lord Morpeth), however, did not think that this would
be consistent with the interests of religion, not merely the
Protestant or Catholic religion, but that religion which taught
peace on earth and good-will towards men, and which was so
necessary for the well-being of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) In
what he had already stated he believed he had sufficiently ex-
plained the objects the present opposition to the measure had
in view.

Mr. SHAW admitted that it was desirable that there should
be a transfer of the payment of tith,'s from the occupiers to the
owners of land ; but he thought that it was too much to take
30 per cent, from the Clergy for the additional security they
would obtain under the altered arrangement. This, however,
was rather a matter of detail than principle. That part of the
Bill, however, which opened all commutations of tithes that
had been entered on during the last thirty years, was most ob-
jectionable, as it would lead to the most expensive, and indeed
endless, litigation. fie also thought that it was an act of
great injustice to the Irish Clergy to make them pay the loan
of a million and the arrears of interest which were proposed
in this Bill ; for the money was given to them with the sanc-
tion of the House, in lieu of the tithes. Ile also objected to
the Commissioners being enabled to reduce the value of bene-
fices below 300/. per annum.

Lord STANLEY would shortly state to the House three
points to which he objected, at the same time he must admit
that there were ni-my parts of the Bill with which he agreed,
and upon which, if no other Member did so, he intended to
take the sense of the House at a future stage of the Bill.
Many of the clauses in the Bill embodied the principles con-
tained in the Tithe Bill introduced by Lord Grey's Govern-
ment, and which he admitted to be leading principles in the
Bill, and which would tend, in his opinion, to the maintenance
and the stability Gf the Church of Ireland ; and because it
was calculated to have that effect, the Hon. Member for Dun-
dalk opposed this part of the Bill, and he (Lord Stanley) not
less honestly supported it. There had been that night a great
alteration in the tone of his Majesty'. Government on this
subject, and in some degree, at least to him, an unexpected
change; but he congratulated the House on this altered tone,
and on the changed manner in which his Majesty's Govern-
ment treated some of the most essential principles of the
Bill.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) lie congratulated the
House on no change more than in the one of the Noble Lord
who, on a former occasion, spoke of the rottenness of the
church' in Ireland ; and the either Noble Lord who talked of
the Protestants of Ireland as a miserable monopolising mino-
rity.—( Renewed cheers.) He had that night been much gra-
tified in hearing the Noble Lord speak of the power and res-
pectability of this minority, and he alluded to their superior
wealth and talents—( Hear)—and he was also much gratified to
hear his Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland, who sprle of
the rottenness of the Church when he brought forward the
measure now state that he did so, because he sincerely be-
lieved that it woul,l tend to the maintenance and security of
the Established Church in Ireland. If, on every occasion,
those Noble Lords adopted this tone, and acted on the pi in-
ciple implied in it, they might rely on the support of that
(the Oppositiun) side of the House, which he was sure his
Majesty's Government was not indisposed to value. But
while by this Bill they professed to maintain and support the
Established Church, he found provisions in it directly adverse
with their declarations. He found provisions in it which
tended to subvert and destroy the Church in Ireland ; and
he ( Lord Stanley) would at once with fairness and candour
declare, that he was determined to oppose. to the utmost
those parts of the Bill. —( Cheers.) He might be asked why,
with such strong objections to many parts of the Bill, he in-
tended to vote for the second reading ? In the first place,
he did not pretend to be satisfied with the present state of 1
Church property in Ireland. He was ai.xious to come to a I
speedy settlement of the tithe question, so as to prevent the
clergy being brought into constant contact and collision with
the large portion of the Catholic population in Ireland.—
(Cheers.) He would not consent to take from the clergy
more than was an equivalent for the advantage that would re-
sult from the transfer of collecting tithes from themselves to
others. This was a measure of degree and a measure of time;
for while he had the honour of being a member of Lord Grey's
Government, he carried through the House a measure which
had diminished day by day the risk to which the Established
Church in Ireland was exposed.---( Hear, hear.) Although he
was willing, for the sake of peace, to consent, to make a
sacrifice of 25 per cent., lie could not say, if the fair pro-
positions that would bo made were rejected—and when
lie saw, as he understood was the case, the clergy in the
possession of 85, 90, and 95 per cent. of their incomes—that he
should feel himself justified in taking from them this amount
of hicome.—(Cheers from the Opposition, replied to by cheers
from the Ministerial benches.) It was for the interest of all
parties that some settlement should be come to on this sub-
ject. lie had been told that the Government had found out
some verbal inaccuracies in these clauses which they had cor-
rected ; but he found that they were a lileratim et verbatim
copy of the clauses introduced into the Bill in the Lords. It
was proposed in these clauses that on benefices falling vacant
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should make a new arrange-
ment, but that they should not reduce these revenues below a
certain amount. This was proposed, because it was expected
that a Clergyman should have the education, and be a gentle-
man ; and this was, agave all, desirable in a country like Ire-
land. Oe this ground, they proposed that no Clergyman
should have less than 300/. a-year. When he and his friends
proposed this last year they showed that after each incumbent
of a parish had 300/. a-year allowed to him there cool I not
by any possibility be a farthing. remaining for other purposes.
(Cries of Hear, hear, hear.) lie proposed 3001. a year, be-
cause in the Church Temporalities Act of Lord Grey's Go-
vernment, it was directed that no living should be taxed
when with a less income than 3001. a-year. Upon this
admitted ground he took that sum as a minimum.—( Hear.)
Government saw if they took the clauses in that form they
would have no surplus, but still they were determined to make
out a surplus. They, therefore, adopted the clauses and
struck out the security, and enabled their own Commis-
sioners to reduce the livings to 40/., 50/., and 601., a-year.
(The Noble Lord was in this and other parts of his speech
cheered very loudly by some Hen. Members in such a
peculiar tone and manner as to excite loud and general
laughter.) On this point also he intended to take th sense
of the House. There was a third point to which no induce
silent would lead him to give his consent. To these clauses
he believed that nine-tenths of the House would never assent,
namely, imposing a tax to the amount of 10 per cent, on the
clergy for the purpose of national education, on the alleged
authority of a statute of Henry VIII., which had no more to
do with the question than in any other Act of Parliament
taken at randoin.—( Cheers.) This, however, was done for the
purpose of being able to slide gently out of the principle of
appropriation.—(-Hoar, hear.) With a desire then to vote for
parts of this Bill, and with the hope of correcting the parts
lie alluded to, lie should vote for the second reading.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, as this debate will not lead to
any general discussion of the Bill I will not detain the House
by entering on the subject at length, but I cannot help re-
:narking on the cousse which the Noble Lord opposite has
pursued; not, indeed, dissimilar, but very similar, to that
whiCh he has followed on former occasions. lie showed a
desire which I will not emulate to excite heat in this debate.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) His conduct reminds me of that of a
gentleman with whom I was formerly acquainted and in the
habits of intimacy, and who was extremely fond of disput-
ing. It often happened that after much debate, and when I
felt no longer disposed to dispute any matter in discussion,
and said, " Well, I will agree with you," my Friend would
then turn round and exclaim, " Agree with me I why is this,
why will you agree with me? What reason have you for
doing so ?"—(dreat laughter.) The Noble Lord said that it
was a shocking matter that his Majesty's Ministers agreed
with him—(Laughter)—that it was a very shocking matter
to adopt clauses verbatim et litera.'im which my Noble
Friend formerly proposed, and he exclaims, " Why is this ?"
—( Renewed laughter.) And declares this in a tone of
anger and irritation, as if we were inflicting some personal
injury on Laughter and cheers.) As the Noble
Lord has said that in this matter we are now agreed, I
will not go into the question or disagree with him ; but I
must congratulate the Noble Lord that there still remains
much matter of difference between us. —( Cheers and laughter. )
I will only state that the opinion that I have always been of