The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-13 00:00:00

NEW WRITS.

A new writ was ordered for the borough of Fowey, in
the room of the Hon. R. H. Eden, who has accepted the
Chiltern Hundreds; and another for the borough of Wen-
lock, in the room of Cecil Forester, Esq. whohas accepted
the office of Groom of the Bedchamber.

MALT TAX.
Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a petition from a pa-
rish in the county of Norfolk, praying fur a repeal of the
Malt Tax.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented four petitions from the
county of Cork, against the Vestry and Sub-letting Acta.

VESTRY ACT.
The Hon. Member gave notice, that on Wednesday the
17th inst. he should bring in a Bill to repeal the Vestry
Act.

LONDON BRIDGE.
The Sheriffs of London presented a petition from the
Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City
of London, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to amend
the London Bridge Act. They also presented another
petition relating to City Lands.

I

I

)ver-
migh
xalls

luated property-texo w,hich should hear slightly upon slen-
qr mearis, but draw largely en redundant resources. One
!NA more with respect: to• the Hon. Member : he- heard
universally stated amongst the farmers yesterday, that the
, Member forEsex had applied for and received his
ilk% at the last audit as regularly as at any firmer period.
WI Rea also inf Tired, that when it was intimated to the
en• Member that his tenants expected something to be
returned to them, he replied that he was not a man to pur-
chase populatity, by concession.
Lord IIOWICK was a good
.deal surprised to hear the
til:°n. Member who bad just sitten down, join the echo of
Ite vulgar cry which had been set up in certain publica-
tions aaainst the landlords of England. He was no
bi 5
&fitted supporter of that class, as 'he. had proved, by
!"tilig on every division in favour of almost unlimited
nee trade in corn ; but he must confess that he had lis •
40e4 with indignation to the imputations cast on the
landlords. The Hon. Member had not scrupled to charge
landlords with exacting front their tenants more than
they could afford'or justice required them to pay. This
charge was utterly unfounded.—(Hear.)
, 1%. LENNARD said, that the Hon. Member for Col-
!')ester had given a most fanciful report of the proceed-
Lite which took place at the Essex Meeting. He was
Present at the meeting, and he could declare that not one
Word of the conversation which the Hon. Member alleged
t() have taken place fell from any person except the Hon.
feather himself. • He must likewise say that the Hon
naber had given a very temperate report of his own
"tell. At the meeting he talked of the flinty hearts of
the landlords, and said that they had dragged -their te-
nantry into the dust. He also spoke of the Clergy as a
let of voluptuaries, rolling in luxuries, and forgetful of
their duties. Those sentiments were beard with disgust
by all the gentlemen at the meeting. He believed that at
no other time than the present would a petition like that
Ill,'"ted by the Hon. Member have been carried in Essex,against
,"e sense of all the gentlemen connected with the county
Ko,were present. He begged to press that circumstance
on the attention of Government. It was an awful sign
°f the titnes.—(Hear.)--Now that the people were mad-
dened by distress, which was daily and hourly increasing,
the persons sincerely attached to the institutions of the
Country, who recommended temperate courses, were losing
their influence. He trusted that before it was too late
the Government would adopt some course for relieving
the distresses of . the country.
Air. HUME approved of every word contained in the
petition.
Mr. F. PALMER said that if salaries and rents were
to be reduced to the,etandard of 1797, it was necessary
that taxes should be reduced in like manner. He thought
that the present situation of the country demanded the
serious consideration of Parliament. The meetings which
*ere taking place in various parts of the country origi-
lkted in no dissatisfaction against the Government, but in
the existence of a distress which it was beyond his power
to describe. The distress had been progressively in-
:lensing during the last two years, as he had the oppor-
tunity of observing from acting as a magistrate. The
misery of the peasantry at the present moment beggared all
description. With respect to the reduction of rents, he
believed there was scarcely a landlord in Digital(' who had
not reduced them more or less.
After a few words from Mr. N. CALYEILT, the petition
*lll ordered to be read.

Mr. ViSTllllV,lnmoving that the petition be brought
41), begged to make a few observations in consequence of
the exceedingly personal remarks which the Hon. Member
for Colchester had made upon him. In the first place, he
"egged leave to say that none of his tenants were 1001. in
serear with him. He had no tenants who were not highly
48Psetable. During the whole period of difficulty he had
tleser had a tenant give up his house or his farm. That
'done was a tolerable answer to the attack of the Hon.
Member.-(Hear.)—He would, however, tell the House
Pie system which he had adopted nearly ten years ago.—
/ reduced all his rents to the price of corn. In this
W'Y his rents in some years had been reduced 50 per cent.
----(nesr.)...—Fle believed, however, that if the present state
of things continued much longer, he would be obliged to
it'educe his rents below the price of corn. He tsusted he
"rye the
enough to satisfy the House that he did not de-
"'se the attack which had been made upon him.
thell:tahehl
petition was then brought up, and ordered to lie on

Mr. WESTERN presented two petitions from the met.-
elia4b, traders, and farmers of Colchester, and the owners
and
Dcmipters of land in the parish of Teuninghani, in
Essez
complaining of the pressure of distress. •
Mr.`"OURTS OF JUDICATURE AT BOMBAY.
hSTEWART gave notice,. that on the 4th of March
e7mild move for copies of all correspondence which had
.taken Place respecting the interference of the Government
India with the Supreme Court at Bombay.

STATE OF THE COUNTRY.
The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Onler of the. Day for receiving the Report of the Com-
mittee of Supply.
On the motion that the Report be brought up,
Mr. CALLAGHAN would avail himself of this oppor-
tunitr briefly to express his sentiments respectin,, the state
of the country. The public interests appeared to be di-
visible into- two branches;—first, our foreign relations;
and,. secondly, the internal condition of the empire. The
general habits of his mind would not enable him to dwell
long on the first of these points; but he could not avoid
rejoicing at the circumstance of our, being in a state of
aunty with all the world. Ministers appeared likely to
extricate us from our difficulties with regard to Portugal,
without coining in collision with any party. Ministers
deserved credit for .the manner in which they had got
over the unfortunate occurrence at Nayarit'. With re-
T;tr_eet to the internal condition of the empire, the only
-"'renee of opinion seemed to be with respect to
',e quantum of distress which "existed. What could
the distress be imputed to ? In his opinion it could
e :attributed to, no particular cause. He believed that
the measure adopted in .1819, respecting the currency,
Lad produced evils which %vete not at that time antici-
pated; but he trusted that no attempt would made to re-
-7• 4
that measure. The Minister who would consent to
4,4tadon the principle of that measure in compliance with
the popular clamour, would deserve to be held up to uni-
,t'ermal execration. He thought, however, that some plan
might be hit upon to alleviate the evils which had resulted
rent the measure of 1819. It was certain that much
°eat distress had been occasioned in consequence of the
:°u'ltry bankers withdrawing their small notes from cir-
-u4Ltion. In 1818, the present Lord Bexley introduced
"ill to enable bankers to issue mites under a certain
ainiount, upon depositing securities. This Bill received
14 sanction of Lord Liverpool, who was known to be a
'needy
:friend of the return to cash payments, but was
subsequently withdrawn. Ile thought, that if a measure
44 that nature were to be brought forward, it would he
productive of great benefit.—(Cries of." question.")—
t 8 the House had not gone into a Committee of Supply,
e thought he was justified in making a series of general
remarks on the various subjects which were likely to corn-
mnnd the attention of the House, with reference to the
evailing distress of the country.—(Much interruption.)—
~t was said that measures were to be proposed to remove
'"e general distress which at present existed. He knew
rll)t what those measures were ; but he would say that
tt Was a dangerous delusion on the people that their dis-
-4:88 could not be alleviated,—that relief could not be
n4orded to them, through .the exertions of the nobility
4'.."1 gentry. He thought very differently. If all of them
,1
their duty, the prevailing distress might be mitigated.
Ke felt that much was in the power of the aristocracy—
knell was in the power of his Majesty's Ministers. He
nkierstood that it would be proposed that night, to pay
knPublic salaries in the standard of 1797. He wished to
w what was meant by this. if it went to a reduction
a
support
civil list, as settled in 1820, he tendered his humble
it"OPort in endeavouring to effect that measure.—(Hear,
e4r.)--The civil list was settled at a time when there was
t'-
settled standard of currency, and that settlement was
vlivrY much alteied by the altered system of the currency.
itilie Hon. Member fur Carlisle meant to propose that
Civil list should be readjusted, he would most gladly
44ent to the proposition, leaving to Ministers the mode
(1 manner in which the alteration should be carried into
1t• A reduction of the public expenditure would, in
j" opinion, be very useful to the Ministers themselves.
tn that case an experiment might and ought to be made
: reduce the taxes of the country. The Act of last
j:Pr the only sensible Act that ever was passed—(Much
t-):l44l4er)re-the Act of last year established the principle,
tl the siolsing pd was nither more nor less than
'e surplus of ref :Termen over e
expenditure. A different
PPilleiple had previously prevailed, and the amount of the
Sinkihg Fund was settled according to the pleasure of the
linister. In 1619, Lord Liverpool said, that it should
iq
'e 8,000,0001. ; and he borrowed money on Exchequer
'lll's to
make up that amount; but now the Sinking
Pond was properly defined to be the surplus which re-
4tained over the expenditure of the country. He believed
that
the last return stated that overpus to be 2,000,0001.
a'l'2 or $OO,OOO/. Now, in his opinion, they ought to
aPPropriste that sum to the reduction of taxes, and he was
Zrloure that the removal of taxation to the amount of
4, or 2 500,000/. would operate as a substantial
the country, and would so fur assist the Chancel-
ret'l the Exchequer in reducing the 4 per Cents., if such
eisei!",tee were in contemplation.—(Coughing and much
core:ll.°n.the impatience of the House to
the notice (the only one on the book) of the Hon.

Member for Carlisle, but 'be had a public duty to perform,
and he trusted that his sense of that duty would plead his
excuse for, claiming the atteatien of the House. He had
not yet said a word on the subject of Ireland. (The
noise was here so great that the Hon. Gentleman's obser-
vation could not be heard.) He saw clearly that he could
not. obtain a patient hearing from the House. and there-
fore he would not trespass further on their time.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, the mode of 'proceeding
which bad been adopted by the Hon. Member whohad just
spoken was a very extraordinary one. He had argued on
his (Sir James-Graham's) motion before he had heard it.
He believed, however, that his motion would fully come
up to the point to which the Hon. Member had alluded ;
and therefore he hoped to receive his support. He never
rose in that Himse without great unwillingness, and the
situation in which lie was at present placed rather aggra-
vated the repugnance which lie felt to occupy their time.
The task which he had imposed upon himielf was a most
important and a most difficult one. His great object was
to introduce a system of strict economy, and of course he
could not expect the concurrence of those who were likely
to be affected by the proposition with which he meant to
conclude. He could not stand there in this time of general
distress—a distress which was 'general throughout the
country—without making an eff at to alleviate it.—(Hear,
hear.)—He called the ...distress ".general;" .for, notwith-
standing the declaration in his Majesty's Speech that it
existed only partially, yet the admission made by those
who supported the Address—coupled with the abstinence
of Ministers from stating precisely the extent of that dis-
tress--did, in his mind, prove that it was deeply felt in
every part of the country.—(Hear. )—The abstinence of
Ministers from introducing a statement relative to the
amount of distress, which was at present felt in every
quarter, excited the greatest possible disappointment and
amaeement.—(Hear.)—lt converted hope into despair,
land it changed the desire which had been previously felt to
endure suffering patiently into feelings of bitterness and
anger. Now, in contending that this distress was general,
lie could not but remember the qualifications with which
the Government had met the statement that misery
and wretchedness every where prevailed. The Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite ekplaine.l his view of the subject by
stating, that in England, indeed, the distress was general ;
but that with respect to Scotland and Ireland such was
not the case. Now this exception struck him as being
very remarkable; for surely it must have occurred to the
Right Hon. Gentleman himself that his argument would
bear strongly against a principle which he had frequently
defended. He (Sir J. Graham) would ask, " Are not
Scotland and Ireland exceptiors from those measures with
respect to which the Right Hon. Gentleman and myself
have so often differed, and to which I mainly attribute
the distress of this country ?" —(Hear, hear.)—ln 1826,
when the Government, contrary to' the principles laid
down by Sir Francis Baring, by Adam Smith; and by
Mr. Hall—contrary also to the opinion expressed by the
Bullion Committee of 1310, and contraty even to the
more recent decision of the Committee of 1819, all of
which went to this point, that a paper currency, payable
'on demand; was a sufficient check to the over-issue of
paper—when the Government proceeded on a different
principle, and enacted that the small notes should be with-
drawn—when they came to that determination without
due inquiry, they laid the foundation of that widely-spread
distress that now exists . in England.—(Hear, hear.)—
Scotland and Ireland, where the small-note currency was
not touched, were not, it was said borne down by calamity;
but England, where without inquiry the small-note circu-
lation was suddenly withdrawn, was, they all know, invaded
by the most cruel distress. He must, however, take leave
to say, that the fact of the absence of distress in Scotland and
Ireland remained to be verified. But, if such were the case,
it did not bear against, but on the contrary, it fortified his
argument. Having said thus much on the distress of the
country, he now cane to one or two general propsitions
which were necessary to the support of his proposition.
In the first place, he would observe, that the Bank Re-
striction Act of 1797 produced two different effects—the
one was, a depreciation of the value of money, and the
other, a great rise of prices. Now the rise of prices at
that day was the cause of granting increased salaries ; but
prices having again come &mu, he did not know how they
could fairly proceed with the increased scale of salaries.
(Hear, hear.)—He would here refer, irst to the evidence
of Lord Sidmouth, in the year 1802, when he came for-
ward to ask for an increase of the civil list : he said—
" When gentlemen refer to their experience of the in-
creased value of every article in the course of the last two
or three years, and when they reflect on all the circum-
stance' of the times, I am sure the excess of the civil list,
which renderer an addition to it necessary, will be readily
accounted for." These words were not very clear, and
adid not go the full length of his proposition, though it
did support it to a certain extent. In 1804 a fresh debt
was accumulated on the civil list. Mr. Pitt was then
Prime Minister ; and he came down to the House at that
time to call for a grant of money to make up the deficiency.
Almost the first sentence he uttered on that occasion
clearly showed that the alteration which Mr. Pitt then
moved for was considered of a temporary nature, and was
to terminate on the return of peace. He said—" No gen-
tleman who reflected on the very considerable rise that
had taken place in the price of every article, of domestic
„aaaamodation could be surprised that his Majesty had
not confined his expences under that head (the household)
within limits that had been marked out so long Since.—
Here Mr. Pitt clearly assigned the reason for malting
an additional grant--namely, the depreciated value of,
money, which. was. at that time 40 or 50 per cent.;
and the increased price of provisions. The next au-
thority he should quote was Mr. Perceval, who, in 1809,
applied to Parliament for an increase of the salaiy of
the Judges, and from his statement they might learn the
extent of depreciation at that period. He called for au ad-
dition of 1,0001. per annum to the salary of each of the
puisne judges, and an increase to the Welch judges
of 3001. a year, on the express ground of the in-
crease in the price of provisions. At that time wheat
was 945. the quarter, and gold was 41. 10s. 9d. per
ounce; but, judging from the price,. not of one commo-
dity, but of all commodities, it was manifest that a very
great rise in their value had then taken place. It was of
importance to mark the opinion of those different Minis-
ters, who one after the other, showed that the principle on
which they proceeded in calling for an extension of sala-
ries, was the high price of provisions, and the depreciation
of the currency. Now, the fact of the high price of pro-
visions during the war was a matter of such notoriety,
that there was no necessity to dwell longer on it: and, in
his opinion, the fact of the depreciation of the currency
was equally clear. But there did stand on the Journals of
that House, a resolution which was meant to negative this
latter fact. It was resolved, at a time when the guinea
was worth 285., that a pound note and a shilling were
equal to a guinea. It was gravely decided, by a vote of
that House, that things which were equal in public esti-
tnation were absolutely equal. Every tnan who could
count ten on his fingers, must have felt that this was a fal-
lacy, and the very next year Parliament showed that they
were convinced it was nothing else, by passing an act, de-
claring it to be a misdemeanour for any person to pay
snore than 21s. for a guinea.—(Hear.)—Aod yet, after
this, the House and the people were asked to place entire
confidence in Ministers, to rely implicitly on the sound
views and comprehensive wisdom of an administration
composed of the shreds of those who had committed these
absurdities.—(Hear, hear.)

" 0! misseras bominuin curas—O pectora caeca!"
Various and discordant were the causes to which they at-
tributed the prevailing distress. At one time the harvests
were over-abundant; at another, the harvest was deficient.
At one time, there was too much heat; at another, too
little. At one time, there was too much drought ; at an-
other, too Much rain.—(Hear, hear. )—liut they never
once recollected the finely-expressed maxim, " that every
additiOn- to the burden of taxation increases, as it were, the
sterility of the soil."—(Hear, bear.)—The act of 1819 re-
stored the value of money to a very great extent. The
Right liOn, Gent. opposite, (for whose integrity he had the
most unfeigned respect,) in moving for the alteration in
the currency, quoted the period of Qheen Elizabeth, when
there was not a farthing of debt, and that of William,
when the debt amounted to about 2,000;0001., and the
interest was only a few thousand pounds. He never
touched upOn the consequences which the change was cal-
culated to produce, and which it had produced, in every
department throughout the country.—(Hear.)--lie could
speak freely on this point, for reasons that could be easily
imagined. Lie was, in 1819, a very young Member of
Parliament, and his own private opinion was overborne
by authority. He pinned his faith on the justice of the
views entertained by Mr. Ricardo;—a most amiable and
well-educated man. He said that the value of the cur-
rency was regulated by the market-price of gold, which
was 41. Is. per ounce. lie (Sir James Graham) had
some doubts to the correctness of this doctrine—doubts,
which were further strengthened by the observations of hit
Hon. Friend; the Member for Callinnion (Mr. Baring.)
lie was, nevertheless, overborne by the authority of Mr.
Ricardo, and he voted with the Right lion Gentleman.
When Lord Liverpool, the colleague of the Wgitt Hon.
Gentleman, urged the same measure in the tither House,
he stated that the alteration would create a diftetence of
more than 3 per cent. But what was the fact? Why,
it caused a variation of 25 per cent., and the Hon. Nort-
her for Callingtou had told them that the variation would
be from 25 to 30 per cent., but never below 25 per cent.
'The other Hun, Member for Callington (Mr, Attweod)

had calculated that the difference would be.effecte '
in the value of the Currency by the eof 1819' ry,,el
be still higher. Another lion. lend of his, (M,..
Brougham,) who was not now a Member of the House, and
whose opinion, therefore, it was irreenhir for him to
read, had, in 1825, when, arguing tlu sulject of tie
Judges' salarieS, in his usual comprehensive manner, gone
over the whole subject.. He said that " a few years ago
the Judges had 3,000/. a year, to which 3;3/. per cent.
had been added to make up the high price of the necessa-
ries of life ; but the reduction of taxes, and the alteration
in the currency, which had since taken place, must have
made a difference of 25 per cent. name in their favour."
This statement had been repeated in the presence of the
Secretary of State for the Home Department, and he never
knew that Right Hon. Gentleman to stand up in his place
and controvert its accuracy. If the ltight Hon. Gentle-
man doubted it, he should like to hear his doubts ; and
if he acknowledged its truth, he should be glad to know
on what gionnds the system ought to be continued.—
( Hear.),—He should now observe that this increased value
of money had a two-fold operation. It added to the weight
of all fixed payments, while it lowered the price of wages
and of provisions. The Hon. Member for Colchester (Mr.
D. W. Harvey) lad told the landed interest that it was
their bounden duty to reduce their rents. He coincided
perfectly in the answer which had been given to the Hon.
Gent.—namely, that rents had been reduced from 25 to
30 per cent. throughout England, on account of the peace.
But, he would ask, was the landed interest to be called
on to balance the alteration in the value of money by an-
other reduction of 25 per cent?—(Hear.)—lf this were
to be done, then he would boldly say to the landlords of
England, "sell your estates."---(Hear.)—lf such reduc-
tions were constantly demanded, he could only view such
a course as a short and' silent, but a most certain mode to
ruin him who had charges on his propel ty. As the landed
proprietors were now situated, they had to meet the taxes
of the war with the prices which preceded it--the taxation
of paper was now to be met with the price of bullion. The
taxes were put on in paper, and not in heavy money, though
they must now be paid through this latter medinM. The .
consequence was, that they deeply affected the great body of
the people. It would be admitted on all hands that the
prosperity of those who labour was intimately connected
with the welfare and strength of the state. If the labourer
was in distress, all other classes must be distressed. If the
labourer wanted bread, all property, whether landed or
funded, must experience great injury. —( Hear. )—He wished
to see the taxes rendered necessary by the war reduced now
that the war was terminated; but instead of that being
done,•he contended, looking to the alteration in the cur-
rency, that fresh taxes had been imposed. The distress of
the people must be attended to; it would force itself on
their consideration however unwilling they might be to at-
tend to it. It was a pebble which from the sling of a
stripling might enter the brain of a giant and overthrow
him. 'When the people were in a state of deep distress, it
was quite clear to him that no monetary arrangement could
by itself afford them relief. Other measures must be re-
sorted to. Of what avail, he demanded, were the wise
plans of the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool, while you
retain a close monopoly of corn ? Under existing cir-
cumstances free trade was not feasible, and as long as
those circumstances lasted never could be feasible. Until
they adopted a different measure with reference to the
currency, and made a proper alteration in the Corn Laws,
free trade, they might depend on it, would work but
badly. Where taxation entered largely into any article,
less of that article would be consumed, but it never could
become cheap ; and this was ably proved by the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen; who, in his resolutions of 1825,
showed that, with respect to malt, tobacco, sugar, tea,
&c., a less quantity was consumed than was made use of in
the French war. 'lbis evidently was occasioned by taxa-
tion. When, therefore, they enhanced the value of
money, and did not reduce the taxes in an equal degree,
those taxes must bear heavily on the poor. Taxation pre-
vented the fall of prices, and added materially to the dis-
comfort of the people. He had heard something said
about the luxuries which the people enjoyed. For his
own part he knew not from whence they came, whether
they were drawn from the gorgeous palaces of Kings, or
the rival palaces of Ministers, who had been splendidly
provided for by the publie—(Hear, hear)—or from the
East India Directors, with their monopoly of the China
trade—(Hear, hear)—or from some contractor, who sup-
plied loans and lent money to France in depreciated paper,
which was now to be paid in money.—(Hear, hear.)—
But he must take leave to rernark that they ought not to
draw their notions of the state of the country from scenes
such as those.

" Ye friends to truth, ye statesmen who survey
The rich man's joys increase, the poor's decay,
'Tis y our's to judge how wide the limits stand

Bet Ween a splendid and a happy land."
Where,• he asked, were all the boasted advantages of this
once happy country? Where were all the blessings which
formerly distinguished her ? Where were all the comforts
which her children had enjoyed for ages ? " Alas ! Sir,
(said the Hon. Baronet), with deep regret I witness that
all—all are gone ! pinching- hunger and gloomy despair
now usurp their situation." The weavers throughout the
country were only earning 4s. 2d. a-week, and their food
was oatmeal, water, and potatoes. They worked 14 or
16 hours a-day, and yet they could only procure this scanty
remuneration. It was a fact that by dint of labour the
power-looms, which were supposed to have caused their
distress, were absolutely under-wrought by those almost
starving people —( Hear, hear.)—He would not further
enlarge upon that painful topic. The country had arrived
at a point when it was necessary, for the safety of pro-
perty, for the security of all that was dear to them, that
something prompt and effectual should be done. He saw
his Hon.. and Learned Frieml the Solicitor-General in his
place, and he would adopt an expression made use of by
him on another occasion. He would confidently say "we
cannot remain as we are."

" Hic locus est, partes übi se via findit in ambas:"

-- -
There were two separate roads. The one was the short
path of justice—inviolable, inflexible justice—rigid um-
sparing economy—low wages, low rents, if they pleased,
but low salaries also.—(Hear, hear.)—The other, the
left-hand path, was that by which greater prices might be
obtained, not by fraud, as he had always said, but by re-
turning to the ancient standard of England—that standard
which had prevailed from the time of the Tudors to the
RevolutiOn, and from the Revolution, with little inter-
ruption, till. 1793. Silver joined with gold was the
standard to which he alluded.—(Hear, hear.)—The mea-
sure of the Right Hon. Gentlemen in 1819 was a novelty,
but that novelty, so far frritn having been in operation,- as
was asserted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
for nine years, was not in operation for ten months.
In the year following the passing of that Act of Parlia-
ment, Lord Castlereagh frankly admitted that the distress
of the country was so overwhelming, that he could not
adhere. to its provisions. He found that he could not
carry it into execution; and he said, " I will depart from
it." And what did he do? Why he repealed the Small
Note Act, and adopted means_ for the issue of paper.
Prices immediately rose, and prosperity was the cons&
quence for a short period.—(Hear, hear.)--He knew the
meaning of that cheer, and he would answer it. A small
note currency, with gold at Si. 17s. 104 d. per ounce, he
knew would be delusive, and would bring the country
back to the distress of 1825. - But such was not his argu-
ment. What he said was, that they must examine and
alter the state of the currency, and allow paper money,
payable on demand, to be •converted into silver or gold.
They ought also to revise their whole system of banking.
These were matters which he wished to be inquired into;
but the Government were inflexible, and said " You shall
not inquire." And if individuals did inquire, and hap-
pened to inquire a little too much, the Attorney-General
was ready to pounce upon them—(Hear, hear)—and to
file an ex-officio information—(Hear, hear)-for the
Icese majestatis of an intention to bring the Government
into contempt.—(Hear, hear.)—Ministers would listen
to no proposition on the subject of the currency. The
Right lion. Gentleman would have gold,—gold,—gold,—
nothing but gold. • But the country would, he hoped,
speedily awake from its slumber, and, with a voice of
thunder, compel hini to repeal this ruinous measure. Ile
should now go into the remaining part of the subject.
One great source of retrenchment must be, the reduction
'of the salaries of those who had their hands in the public
purse. Some might say that other measures were neces-
sary. This might be so at a moment of distress like the
present, hut. the great object should be retrenchment to the
utmost degree. That end might be accomplished in two
ways;--either by reducing the number of persons employ-
ed, or by reducing their salaries,—or by doing both.—
With respect to the decrease of numbers, he conceived that
was not a point to be dealt with now. That was a matter
of detail which would be best discussed when the estimates
were brought forward. With respect to the reduction of
salaries, he thought that subject should he considered before
they went into a committee of supply,—before a single esti-
mate was laid on the table,—in order that some fixed
principle should be adopted in framing the estimates that
were to he introduced. It was only fair to allow Govern-
ment to bring forward its estimates reduction, and pledge
itself to the quantum of such reduction, if it were so dis-
posed, before we stated in what scale we wished the reduc-
tion to lie made. The principle of public salaries as ar-
ranged by Mr. Pitt, Mr. Addington, and Mr. Perceval,
rested upon the depreciation of the currency which took
place in consequence of the provisions of the Bank Re-
striction Act, which was passed in 1797. That some re-
duetion must be made on the amount of taxation was .ad-

:ratted. 1 wss. .equally cleat that, in order to effect
these reduet'u n rontractiOnot out expeno.nture was ne-
cessary. -'it reina'ned for hitulia describe on what principle
the neht clue se:Lois:a ef Official men should be reduced.
(The lion. Member Fore read-the resolution which he after-.
seards 'imposed at tlue coeclusion of his speech.) He might
be asked what was it that he meant to exclude from the
operation of this resolution. To this he answered, that lit
meant to ex chide forum those reduction s every thing relating
,0 his Majests's privy purse and the Royal establishment.
He considered such Matters-as coming under the head of
engagements entered into at the beginning of the reign,
and which we could not violate. It was upon such
grounds that he did not wish to meddle with his Majesty's
privy purse,- or the Royal household. With respect to
our warlike establishments, he would confirm our contract
with the sailor—his pay had been fixed 'in 1798, when
prices did not materially vary from those of the- present
clay ; and in his wish to supersede the necessity of impress-
ment, be for one would rather raise than lower the sailor's
pay in the Royal Navy, in order to bring it on a level with
that of the merchant service. With regard to the army,
our soldiers had entered it for a term of years, and the
stipulated sum should be paid to them, anal the benefits to
which they were entitled- at the end of their service se-
cured. These he held to be sacred and solemn engagements.
The argiumnt which applied to the srd tier applied also to
the officer, although it must be admitted that the manage-
ment of the half-pay since the termination of the war had
been such in some instances as to convert it into a pension
list. But what had been done should not be undone—and,
with regard to the Crown, the army, and navy, he had
no hesitation in saying that they diul not fall within the
pirit of his resolution. He might be asked, why intro-
duce the term " military" into his resolution ? He intro-
duced it because, in many cases, the salaries of military
officers, who held civil situations, had been augmented
without sufficient reason, and because some of these
officers
.being removable at pleasure, their allowances
might now be altered without difficulty. He found
among the list of Colonial Governors, that the sa-
lary of the Lieutenant-Governor of New Brunswick had
been raised from 1,000/." to 1,500/. per annum,
within the period in question. That the salary of the
Governor of Nova Scotia had been raised from 1,000/. to
2,000/. ; (be might observe, while upon the subject of this.
.colony, that the salary of the Bishop of Nova Scotia was,
raised from 700/. to 1,0001. a year.) The salary of the
Governor rof Prince Edward's Island had been raised from
800/.. to 1,000/. ; and that of the Governor of Newfound-
land from 500/. to 1,0001. In Port Jackson the salary
of the Governor was also doubled, it being originally
1,000/., and now 2,0001. a year. The salary of the Go-
vernor of Sierra-Leone was also raised from 1,0001. to
2,000/. per annum. • In the second report of the Finance
Committee was contained a recommendation which, as
far as he knew, still remained without having been carried
into effect. The Committee recommended that we should
revert to the principle of enlistment in the army that pre-
vailed previous to 1806. This was the positive recom-
mendation of the Committee in 1828, yet nothing had
been done towards carrying it into effect. He well knew
the zeal and industry of his Gallant Friend opposite, but
still he thought that some good might be done by recall-
ing -public•attention to this point. He wished shortly to
remind the House of the difference of our position as re-
garded the amount of our expenditure now and in 1797.
'f he expences incurred on account of dividends and ma-
nagement of the public debt in 1797 were 11,500,000/. ;
in 1828 they amounted to 27,366,000/. In the former
year the amount of pensions on the Consolidated Fund
was 180,0001. ; in the latter, 365,580/. The salaries
paid out of the Consolidated Fund amouted in 1797
to 14,600/. ; in 1828, to the sum of 80,800/. The
amount of expences incurred on account of Courts of
Justice was 31,000/. in 1797 ; but in 1828 it reached
148,000/. In 1797, payments chargeable thereon were
made out of the Consolidated Fund to the amount of
119,000/. ; in 1828 they were 566,000/. It should be
recollected that 1797 was a year that occurred in the
midst of a most important and dangerous war. Previous
to that we had had a much lower criterion with respect to
the price of our army and navy. For instance,- in 1793,
the cost of the army was only 2,500,000/. ; whereas, it
was now (including half-pay) about 8,000,000/. In 1793,
the expences of the navy were 2,750,000/. ; in 1829,
they reached 0300,000/. The Ordnance department cost
459,000/. in 1793, and 1,500,000/. in 1829. Thus the
total cost of our warlike establishments in 1793 was
5,709,000/. ; but in 1829 they amounted to 15,500,000/.
Let it not he forgotten, that in 1793 wheat was 50s. a
quarter, and that in 1830 it was 555. a quarter ; so that,
where one bushel of wheat was required for the support of
these establishments in 1793, three bushels were called for
at the present day, in consequence of their increased et-
pense. The report of the Finance Committee stated that
the warlike establishments of the country were required to
be kept up, not so much with reference to the possibility
Of war, but with a view to defend us against foreign inva-
sion ; and recommended retrenchment. He was afraid of
fatiguing the House, but there was one or two points more
which he wished to touch upcn. He was desirous of
adverting to the per centage charged on the collec-
tion of the revenue. He thought that the time had
airived when it was desira'de that the gross receipts of
the Excise should be carried to the public account, so as to
enable us to see the actual payments made without de-
duction. The per centage in the collection of the Cus-
toms was 61 per cent: on 19,000,000/. ; on 22,000,0001.
produced by the Excise, the per centage was 4/., 9s. The
expense of collection had gone on increasing, for while
in 1810 it only amounted to 4/. 9e. per cent., it was now
Si. 19s. 2d., or in round numbers 6 per cent. He did
not wish to do any thing invidious ; but there was one
salary to which be should call the attention of the House.
The father of the Hon. Member for Northamptonshire, in
1798, when at the bead of the Board which sent Nelson
to conquer at the Nile and Duncan at Camperdown, *as
content with a salary of 3,000/. a year, yet now, with
prices reduced to the. scale prevalent previous to 1795, we
paid Lord Melville 5,000/. per annum—an increase of
nearly 60 per cent, upon the salary paid to Lord Spencer.
The number of persons employed in the civil service in
1797 was (according to authentic returns) 16,267, and
their salaries amounted to 1,374,561/., giving an average
salary of 84/. a year to each individual. In 1827 the
number of persons employed had increased to 22,912,
and their salaries to 2,788,0001., the average salary being
121/. Thus it appeared that there had been an addition
of one-third to the number of employees, and an increase
of 50 per cent. on their salaries in 1827, as compared with
1797. The precious metals were the nominal, but bread
and corn were the real standard value—in 1810 wheat
was 105 s. the quarter ; at present it was 555. So that
in the former year, which was the more expensive period,
it would have taken 500,000 quarters of corn to pay what
it would now require 1,000,000 quarters to pay—it was
not fair that the servants of the Crown . should receive-
double salaries, and pay half prices.—(Hear, hear, anal
laughter. )---On this imperfect view of the subject, he was
yet willing to rest his case. He 'confessed that he was
one of those who viewed with the utmost jealousy the
elevation of the Duke of Wellington to the highest office in
the State in 1828. Ile did not think that military edu-
cation was the best preparation fur administering the affairs
of 4 free State.—(Hear.)—Hel feared that the Noble
Duke might transfer to the Administration of the Govern-
ment the doctrine of the camp, and recognize no con-
nection between the Prince and the people, except that of
rigid command and implicit obedience. But reflection led
him to see that he who haul achieved such actions, aided
by the courage of the people of England—that he who
had so frequently conducted to victory a race of men who
proved themselves by their conduct the lords of the
hu-
man kind—would not fall into such an error, and he had
not been altogether disappointed in Iris expectations.—
On his first accession to pottier, the Noble Duke supported
' the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts. Besides,
there was a more recent act of that distinguished person,
which had much delighted him : lie alluded to the act of
conferring the merited honours of his profession on a dis-
tinguished barrister, mite an ornament of that House,
and whom he wished again to see within its walls—a man
who was content to hazard the sacrifice of professional
ttuiariaa
unhappy
‘cvoonns:a•ine_n ti(oluiseardischarge) The
Daltudity
towards e
leadalvasi'uececuleaeelunled in carrying a measure which Mr. Pitt de,
dared to be the key-stone of the union between England
and Ireland, and which he was yet unable to 'perfect ;
which Mr. Fox, though lie had advocated it strenuously
and -powerfully, did not venture to bring forward as a
ministerial measure ;—for an attempt to carry which
`Lords Grey and Grenville bad been hurled from power ;
which Mr. Grattan, although ready to sacrifice his life
in the cause, had been unable with all his great and va-
ried talents to accomplish;—which caused to Sir. Can-
ning, because he could not effect it, a degree of care -and
sorrow that doubtless accelerated his death, and occasioned
and
di
h; s
ilsvTseionxfcpreie.retesisioei spdwi
opinion
with
toi ,ois;ce
ca sts
t'
o'
his impatient mind,
-- working out its way,
Mr. Canning,
notwithstanding the calumny
and misrepresentation to which that Statesman had. bean
subjected. The Noble Duke, • nothing daunted at the
failure of his predecessors, made the attempt, and won the
day, effecting an unequalled triumph in the establishment
of civil and • religious peace. These were great obliga-
tions which the Duke of Wellington haul laid upon 'his
a sountry, but' they were not sufficient, Time hurried on,

' day by day we were called upon for our decision upon
• points of economy and retrenchment, and our decision
could hot lonilag behind the public expectation. The
-Duke of Wellington's administration was Raid to be founded
en the dissolution of party mheline—it was intimated that
the Noble Dulic possessed a recei!:t for the dispersion of
party—(A lauel!)—and the imiendieg of men on all sides
and opinions. For instance, there was Lord Rossiyn,
Lord Privy Seal ; and the other day the Mint was offered
to the Noble Lord the Member for Buckinghamshire : we
had a Whig Attorney-General, and another Hon. Gentle.
man from the same ranks was lately appointed to a high
judicial office in Scotland. Then, dropping among the
free traders, the Noble Duke picked out a tame elephant
fur • the Board of Controul.—(Laughter.)—This was an
admirable nostrum. No doubt the Noble Duke possessed
the secret of dispersing and neutralizing factions and pre-
venting the existence of patty; but was the nostrum
equally efficacious for the purpose of forming a party ? Or
could a Government be carried on without one ?—(Hear.)
ft would seem as if the Noble Duke possessed a crucible,
whereby all parties were to be fused down into one mass,
for the exclusive benefit of the great elchymist who blew
the coals -(Hear, and laughter. )—For his part he'did not
much approve of this proCess, and saw no safety for the
public interest except in dealing with ecch individual
question, as it happened to be brought forward, upon
its own abstract merits, without reference to the quarter
from whence it proceeded, without reference to the motives
which dictated its introduction, or the effects which it
might have on the fortunes or de:A :an of the Administra-
tion.—(Hear.) It might be thought ti: ;t the ime was
come when it was necessary to form a pat ty on behalf of
the tax-payer. He perceived nothing dishonour&' he in the
conduct of the Hon. Member for Kent, or in the conduct
of his Hon. relative the Member for Yorkshire, in the
course they proposed to pursue, and he was willing to act
in concert with them to the furtherance of public objects.
He would not be deterreet from discharging his duty by the
imputation of improper motives. He owed it to iris con-
stitueets thus to discharge his duty. He sought for no-
thing at the hands of Ministers, and should continue to
act independently so long as he had the honour to address
the Commons House of Parliament, which, with all its
faults, he considered the noblest assembly- of freedom in
the world.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Baronet
concluded by moving a resolution to the effect, that
" Whereas, subsequently to the Act 37 Geo. 111., for the
suspension of cash payments by the Bank of England, large
augmentations have from time to time been made in the
salaries and pay of persons employed in the civil and mili
tart' service of the country, on account of the diminished
value of money ; and whereas the alleged reason of this in-
crease has, for the most part, ceased to operate, in conse-
quence of the Act 59 Geo. 111., which has restored the
metallic standard of value,—it is expedient that, with a
view to relief from the present excessive load of taxation,
all such amsmentations should now be revised, and every
possible reduction effected, which can be male without the
violation of existing engagements, and without detriment
to the public service."
The question having been put—
Mr. DAWSON said that acknowledging, as be did, the
great talent, ability, and eloquence with which his Hon.
Friend had brought forward the subject now under con-
sideration, still it was not his intention to follow the Hon.
Baronet through all the topics to which he had alluded in
the course of his speech. He should rather endeavour to
lead the House from the consideration of some of the va-
rious subjects to which his Hon. Friend addressed him-
self, but which did not touch the latter at issue, and con-
fine their attention to the narrow limits of the motion.—
His Hon. Friend's speech appeared a concentration of the
spirit of the debates that had taken place during the pre-
sent Session, and a condensation of almost all the topics
urged in the last Session. He should not follow his Hon.
Friend through so wide a range of observations, but would
simply explain to the House before calling on it for any
opinion on a subject affecting the interests and happiness of
thousands that the Hon. Gentleman had passed over, and
the measures which Government bad long pursued. As to
the naked proposition of reducing salaries to the scale of
1797 he should not say a word, not that he did not take
nearly the same view as his Hon. Friend, as to the neces-
sity of reducing our expenditure as much as possible con-
sistently with the public service, but because he undertook
to prove that Government had gone as far as they had
pledged themselves to go, and had evinced a sincere desire
to carry measures of economy into effect. His lion.
Friend wished to regulate the payment of public officers,
so that their salaries and duties should correspond. This
might prove a difficult thing to be done, and if it were done,
it might have no beneficial effect upon the reduction of the
public burdens. The proposition reminded him of the
bed of Procrustes, to which every body was to be adapted
—those who were shorter than it were to be stretched out
to its full dimensions, and those who were too long were
to be cut short, so as to reduce them within its limits.
If this principle were applied to public officers, the Hon.
Member would find that if he could contract the salaries
of some, he would be obliged to enlarge the salaries of
of others. But perhaps his Hon. Friend did not know
what had been already done in the way of reduction. The
fact was, that almost every recommendation and principle
of reduction laid down in the reports of Committee% or
by commissions of inquiry, had been carried into effect
to a very great extent. Practical retrenchment as far as
possilsle, and an abolition of sinecures and reversions, bad
been recommended by a Committee that sat in 1797 ;
and these recommendations were acted on to the fullest ex.
tent practicable.' With respect to sinecures which had
been formerly considered the remuneration of public ser-
vices, they were altogether abolished. With respect to
the Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, the office was allowed
to exist, but the salary formerly attached to it had ceased.
The office of Governor of the Isle of Wight had been
abolished ; and those of the two Chief Justices in Eyre has
ceased. The clerkship of the Rolls in Ireland and in Eng-
land was abolished, and the office of Auditor of the Exchequer
in the former country had also ceased. The same place
in England would be abolished as soon as a vacancy oc-
curred, and the salary (4,0001. a-year) saved to the
country. Twenty-three other offices had been abolished
since 1807, making in all thirty-two sinecure and rever-
sionary off pleoes that had ceased since the recommenda-
tion of the Cormnittee. These steps had been followed up
by a regulation, that the duties of public offices should be
performed at the loweet possible cost to the public. What
he had to address to the House on this subject involved
matter of detail, which, however, it was necessary for the
House to know before it came to a decision on the subject.
The Government, attending to the recommendations of
Coramitteesand Commissions of Inquiry on the subject of the
collection and management of the Revenue, had endea-
voured to make economy and retrenchment the basis of all
its proceedings. The inquiries that were instituted had ended
in the abolition of the office of Comptroller of Barracks,
which was transferred to the Ordnance Department—of
the office of Commissioner of the Transport Board, which
was transferred to the Navy Victualling Board. The
office of Commissary-in-Chief was transferred to the
Treasury. The office of Stock-keeper General had been
abolished. The Board of Customs in Scotland and Ire-
land was abolished, as were also the Boards of Excise in
Scotland and Ireland, and the Boards of Stamps in both
those countries. Of all these different Boards, the number
of Commissioners had been 59 ; they were now reduced '
to 28. This had been done with no other desire than to
diminish the public expenditure; for that purpose,
thirty-one Commissionershipe, with salaries of from
1,0001. to 1,4001. a-year, had been abolished. Vnder
such circumstances, he was justified in repeating that
Government had attended to every recommendation of
ecanotny that was consistent with the effective trans-
action of public business. The offices he had . men-
tioned had been abolished previous to 1820. In
1821, an address was moved for reductions in the public
expenditure, in consideration of the increase that had
taken place in salaries since 1797. With very few excep-
tions, this proposition embraced every ohject which the
Hon. Baronet now proposed to effect. He thought he
should be able to satisfy the House, that this was not a
new subject—that it had been the desire ef Government
to adopt the scale of expenditure of 1797—that they bad
proceeded towards the eccomplishment of that object, and
though he could not say it had been fully accomplished,
yet, looking at the difference in the extent of -public
business now and in 1797, he was of opinion that the sa-
laries of public offiocre had been brought as near as pos-
sible to the scale of 1797. It was natural for him to begin
with, the department to which he himself belonged ; and
if the House would allow him to state what had beep clone
in that department in the way of reduction, he should do
so. Time roles laid down by the Treasury With respect to
all future offices were te the following effect, viz.:—
That every office should be restored, with respect to nun:.
bets nod emoluments, to the standard of 1797, unless in
cases where there should he some adequate cause for depart-
ing from this rule. That where, from increase of-1)1114ms,
or the necessity of greeter despatch, it shoteld I necessary
egmremilluinemell,"slium:ll;
to enlarge the numbers and increeie
officers, the increase thus reecle Omni,' be assimilated to the
salaries of therm oincers who hell similar situations in
in 1821.—(Cheers.)
t existingl,l,re.iins
no longer necessary, or capable of
office should accordingly be abolished or reduced. Such
were the orders made by the Treasury
but
'l.l'7i:y7.werTeboa:mtifcoarim'fi'ndffictee,
they eeteroled over all public of cps ill the Home De-
ierrtment, the Colonial, Pepytmot, the customs, the
I:79:islirotuitidelibteacome

Exciee, in short, over the whole range of pvblie offices
_.e.(Flear, and cheers.)--aNdw the House would surely
Wcarryingow that this was into effect the address of June.
1821. Now let him call their attention to the result of
'
'lleee new regulations in the payment of public officers.
Under the old establishment the minimum expense of the
Treasury was 46,0001. a year, and the maximum 64,000/.
a year. Under the new., regulation the minimum Wes
11,000/. a year, and the maximum 48,0001. a year. The
reduction, therefore. under the new regulation, sees ae
18,000/. to 61,000/., or, in other words, 30 per cent.
—(Cheers.)—The same principle had been, as he before
ebsereed, carried into all the offices. But let him explain
how the new regulation had operated on the different cleseca
of persons in the Treasury department. The effect of it on
tile salaries of the junior clerks was a reduction of 26 psr
cent. ; on the salaries of the assistant clerks, 40 per cent. ;
on the salaries. of the chief clerks, 20 per ceio. What,
however, had been the effeet of this regulation on the sale-
ries of the superior offieers? Why, by a comparison be-
that they were greater' in the former di in in the latertweets their salaries in 1797 and 1821, it would be found
year ; and, consequently, that if -the proposition of his
lion. Friend should be adopted, it would cut off from the
salaries of those who could not afford to part with any
thing, while it would increase the salaries of the very pee-
eons whose emoluments his Hen. Friend- was most anxious
to reduce. In 1797, the salary of- the First Lord et* the
Junior Lords of the Treasury was, as now, 1,220/. The
Treasury was, as now, 5,000/. a year; so that et. this
salary of the Secretary of the Treasury in 1769, 1770,
and 1771, was 3,7001. ; in 1797 the salary amounted to
5,0001,` He should observe, however, that this sum in-
cluded salary And emoluments. It was reduced to 4,00C1.
in 1800, and by the operation of the Treastiry regulations
of 1821,- it was further reduced to 3,500!.—the amount at
which it now etood.—CHear.)—Now, as he held the t Edit•
of Secretary to the Treasury, and as he, fur from being
loser, should be a gainer by the alteration proposed by hi 4
lion. Friend, he thought that he might be allowed to
raise his voice against the reduction of the salaries of these
who could not afford to part with any portion 01 their in-
come.—(dear, hear.)—This being the position of the
Treasury by the adoption of the minute of 1821, it would
I.e only fair to compare the labour of that department in
1797 and 1821. In 1797 there were registered at the
Treasury 4,600 papers; aid, in 1821, there Were regi-
stered no less than 27,000 papers. Now when it was re-
collected that this was done by individuals who received
only the same salaries as in 1797, and by subordinate
officers, whose salaries were leis, but whose labour was
ten times greater than the labour was in 1797, be 'dial
think that he had made out a case which would induce the
House to deliberate long before they came to the resolu-
tion of depriving an industrious and Valuable body of men
of any part of their fair remuneration.—(Hear.)—Thesame effects had been produced by the new regulations in
the offices of the Secretaries of State. In
It it
1797 the k
lacy of a Secretary of State was 6,000/. was now the
same, but in 1782 it had been 8,000/.• The salary of an
under Secretary in 1797 was 2,000/. It was afterwards
reduced to 1,500/. ; again, it was raised to 2,000/. ;
then to 2,500/. ; arid, by the Treasury minute of 1821,
it was once more reduced to 2,oool.—the amount at which
it now stood, and above which it could not be increased.
A similar reduction had taken place in the office of the
Secretary at War ; and there was a cm ions circumstance
connected with this- office, to which he begged to
Ball the attention of the House, because it proved
how very unjust it would be to adopt the pre-
position of hie Honourable Friend. The number
of persons employed in that office had been increased
since 1797, while the amount of salaries had been dims-
wished.—(Hear, hear.)—ln 1797, the number of persons
employed in that office was 58, and the amount of salaries
36,000!. In 1829, the number of persons was 99, and
the amount of salaries 33,000/.—( Hear, bear.)—The
deputy-secretary, in 1797, bad asalary of 2 500/., and per-
quisites, which amounted to 14,900/. The three chief
clerks, had salaries of 3,0001. a year each. The salaries
of these clerks had been reduced to 1,200!. to 1,0001. and
to 900/. a year ; and the salary of the deputy had been
reduced to 3,000/.—(Hear, hear. )—ln every other depart,
ment, and expecially in the extensive departments of the
customs anal excise, large reductions had also been made.
Let him take one department as a' sample, Since NIS
the total number of custom-house officers reduced, in the
United Kingdom, was 2,511, and the amount of salaries •
reduced was 237,678!. Now it often happened, in thee
reductions, that some were superannuated for life, and that
others were placed on what was called the redundant list,
Out of the 2,511 officers dismissed, 373 had been ate.
lected from the redundant list for various employments,
and by these means a saving to the amount of 37,0001.
had been. effected. To show the principle on which
the Government had acted, it him call the attention
of Honourable Members to a perticular fact. Whoa
the Board- of Customs was abolished in Scotland, a
gentleman connected with that establishment retired on
a superannuation pension of 750/. a year, It happened
that the situation of Comptroller of the Customs at- Que-
bec became vacant. This patronage belonged, of coulee,
to the Duke of Wellington, and it was natural to suppaso-
that he would exercise his right of nomination in the usual •
way. The Noble- Duke, however, 'did not ; for no tanner
was it intimated to the Duke -of Wellington that this gen •
aletuan, who had retired on the pension of 7501. a yiar,
was fit to fill the vacant situation at Quebec, than tho
Duke waved his claim, and appointed the gentleman to
that situation ; the salary of which was 1,500/,—(Clwers.)
Thus the superannuation pension of 750/, was saved to
the country.—(Cheers.)---This was net the only instance
in which the Noble Duke had acted in this manner. The
very next week,- by a similar appointment, •the Noble
'Duke saved the • country 1,0001. a year,—(Cheers.)—A
certain office falling 'variant,- the Duke of Wellington again
waved his claim to the patronage, and appointed to the si-
tuation a gentleman whose pension was a charge upon the
country to the amount of from 700/. to 800/. a yeas,
Many of the gentlemen whom he was addressing well
knew that the same principle was acted upon in the other
departments of the State, and that the Government, fits
from wishing to extend their patronage, were always glad
to contract it, if by so doing they coold effect a saving to
the country.—(Hear, hear.)—fie would not pursue the
reductions which had been effected in the department of
the Customs. • Only, let it' be recollected, that though
there were more persons employed in that departtnent now
than formerly, yet the amount of salaries was less. Under
the old system it often happened'thet a landing-waiter had
a greater salary than the Commiseioners had now. Tne
end of the old system wes to collect to the greatest amannr,
and to conceal the inside of collecting; the object of the
new system was fairness and openness, by which the
merchant gained advantage, while the poldie revenue was
more seem e.—(Sorne cries of " No, no.")—Such, he
would contend, was the object and the effect of the
new system. With respect to the proposition of his
Honourable Friends let Leine call on the House to roe
collect that the persons against whom his Honourable
Friend's project was directed, would not and, could not
judge by the value of money, but le): the labour
they performed for the salaries they reeeived. Whether
those salaries were or were nut a fair remunera-
tion for the labour they performed, they could only
aieertain by their weekly biills, Ile had shown that a re-
duction of 30 per cent. had been effected on the salaries of
public officers since 1821. Would any Hon. 'Wernher
show him that a similar reduction had taken place in the
necessaries of life? He thought not; for, in 1822 i the
price of a leg of mutton was 6d. per lb. ; iu 1830 s it was
8(1. per lb.,,—(Cries of " No, no," and laksghter): in
1822, the price of a shoulder of mutton was 5(1, per lb.,
and in 1830, it was 7d. per lb.—(Lund cries of "Nn, no,"
end much laughter.) He believed that this, though 'rota
parliamentary account, War, Wrrect. However, the reduc-
tion which he had shown to have taken place on the sale-
ties of public offeeris could not be denied. That the busi-
ness of the public offices was much better conducted now
then at any antecedent period, Wasso evident, that he would,
not trouble the Howie with one word upon that ;übjete,.....
After the case he had made out, lie might now sic clown,
but lie wished to allude to one other point a his Hon,
Friend's speech. His lion. Friend not not believe the
statement that distress did not prevail in Ireland. Now
he had a great stake in that . eauntry. His first and last
wish must be for the prosperity of Ireland, and it wee iist•
eight of the Session, respecting
pos,ible for him to sin has eyes to the real condition of that
LiftwOok contradict the Statement
The How Mie7.o4beurd•
country, be that cettedition what it might. ale was, there-
Made by his Right
au-
thority of Mr.amiLdatauluscohet,hattliceoemmtninee4n:iablaallelert,
titre, sliedwithsurprise when lie heard the Mee Member for
1 mat
thirty years; the condition of IreliMl
that rents in
Hon. "Friend the Chancellor of eke Exchequer, on the fleet
fl:ardLnleuvleetrileselnanbdettheirmpaselidf hail
ttlhtee
trading is: aince.r; .
tieity had never been more alivo in that country than et
present. The Hon. Member for Clare, whom Ike was
very glad to see he that liousifl, and who seemed to taste
in
nvilitte;wctonl7.
been taken as en oracle on this subject, gave a very cncie tilts reason for saying that distress existed in Ireland. Thee
lion. Member for Clare had told them that be knew, lees
tfi
professionalee
Ing eet )1 experience,
ee
his professional experientee, that three provineee 11"41.4;1:1
fiss
%bu
w(icra. Dawson) u
ts7.l
Jo t
01 1
pro
experience were greatly dietressed. Now, upon that tiora•Aleie.be7s
dente ; but give him leave to tell she Hen sleet

tune, however valuable it might be on a question of law.
He begged to deny that the statement made by the Hon.
Member could he justified by the fact. He knew that there
did exist depression in the manufactures of Ireland, but with
respect to the agriculturist; there was no such distress as
Ind been described. He had only now to observe that
as the forms of the House would not allow him to pro-
pose an amendment to the motion of his Hon. Friend, he
should be: compelled to meet it by passing to the Order of
the D.iy for the report on the Committee of Supply. To
show, t.owever, that he had no disposition so to get rid of
the question, he should move, in the event of his Hon.
Friend's motion being negatived, as resolutions to which
he invited the concurrence of the House,—

" That whereas his Majesty was graciously pleased, in answer
to an address of that House, to assure the House on the 27th
June, IS2I, that his Majesty would cause an inquiry to be made
int i all the departments of the civil Government, with the view
of reducing the number of persons employed in the various offices,
and the amount of salaries paid—Resolved, That an humble ad-
dress be presented to his Majesty, that his Majesty might be
graciously pleased to lay before the House an account of the pro-
gress which had been made in such inquiry, and of the measures
that had been taken in consequence. Also, that it was the opi-
nion of that House, that, in every establishment of the state,
every saving ought to be made consistently with the due perform-
ance of the public aervice, and without the violation of existing
engagements."
(These Resolutions were received with much cheering.)

Mr. CROKER.merely rose to mention some facts con-
nected with the department to which he belonged. -The
balmiest of the Admiralty officers amounted in 1797 to
14,1401., they now amounted to 25,6001., being, appa-
rently, an enormous increase. But if they referred to the
report of the Finance Committee in 1799, they would find
that although the naked salaries eo nomine, amounted only
to 14,1401., yet the real StinOune of salaries and gratuities
was 27,0001., being 2,000/. a year more than the present
amount. This statement was not his, but that of the
Finance Committee in -1797. The following, however,
was equally correct. In 1797, the salary of the First
Lord of the Admiralty was 3,0001., it was now about
5,000/. The salaries of the other Lords were the same as
at present. The salary of the First Secretary in 1797
was 5,4001., it was now 3,000/. ; the salary of the
Second Secretary was then 1,9201: it was now 1,500/. ;
the salary of the Chief Clerk was then 1,400/. ; it was
now 1,1001. In the Navy Office the expence was much
the same in 1797 as it was at present, and the expences
of the Admiralty office was greater in 1'797 than they
were now. With respect to the increase in the salary of
the First Lord of the Admiralty, it happened thus: Lord
Barham was the last who received only 3,000/. a year.—
His thought this too little, but he had too much
delicacy to smy so while he retained the post. Resigning
the office upon the coming in of an hostile Ministry, he
left behind him a declaration that the salary ought to be
raised. This declaration fell into the hands of Lord Grey,
who agreed with Lord Barltam, and thus the salary was
raised.

Mr. SPRING RICE complained of the very unjust at-
tack which had been made upon him by the Hon. Secre-
tary for the Treasury. The Hon. Secretary had repre-
sented him as being in possession of evidence that no dis-
tress existed in behind, and yet, as waking a statement in
direct contradiction to that fact ; at least so he had under-
stood, he hoped, misunderstood, the Hon. Secretary, for
no accusation could be more unfounded. He had not gone
for evidence to the sources from which the Hon. Secretary
derived his, but he had taken his evidence from a docu-
ment published by an excellent society, upon whose accu-
racy and means of information he could safely depend.
He pledged himself to bring down on Monday, the docu-
ment from which he had taken his information, in order
to show with what little foundation he had been attacked.
The question of the currency had been dwelt upon by his
Hon. Friend, but he (Mr. S. Rice) did not wish that the
currency question should be mixed up in that of reduction
of expenditure. On the one question there were serious
differencea of opinion amongst those who were all agreed in
the necessity of strictly enforcing the other. He hoped
therefore that the two questions would not be mixed up
mm this occasion. Before he sat down he must congratu-
Lt. the House upon the statement of his Hon. Friend,
made in so Blear and convincing a manner, respecting that
alteration in our monetary system which would bring us
bark to the good old monetary system—a silver standard.
Mr. DAW SON was glad to take the earliest possible
opportunity of assuring his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Rice), if
be aworld allow bins so to call him, that he had never
meant directly or indirectly to charge bins with having
gated any thing to the House which he did not himself
fully believe ; but he owned he was somewhat surprised at
what had fuller from his Hon. Friend on the subject of
the state of Ireland, as it appeared to him to he different
from what he had been stating to him in conversations on
the same subject---and he had supposed that his mind had
been prejudiced by some representations made to him by
the lime. Member for Clare.
Mr. S. RICE was glad to hear the explanation of the
'lon. Member for Derry.
Sir GEO. WARRENDER congratulated the House
on the able speech of his lion. Friend the Member for
Cumberland. Such a speech, favourably received as it
was by the House, would prove to the people that a House
of Commons did exist and was disposed seriously to attend
to their wants. He would now ask one question, which
he laved would receive an answer from some gentleman
on the (Treasury) bench below him. What lie wished to
know was, whether it was the intention of Government
so make any increase to the salaries of any of the offices in,
fiNtland ?

Mr.. O'CONNELL would not obtrude himself for a
imminent on the attention of the House, but to set himself
right as to a statement by the Hon. Member opposite
(Mr. Dawson). After the very luminous statement made
by that Hon. Member, be adverted, by way of interlude,
to something which fell from him (Mr. O'Connell), in
which he seemed to infer that he had contradicted himself
as to an opinion on the state of Ireland. The authority
brought sgeinst him by the Hon. Member was that of
Mr. Latoneho; but be could state to the House, that at a
meeting of the Society for the Improvement of Ireland,
Latouche stated, that Ireland was in a state less dis•
gassed than England, hut that was immediately negatived
by the meeting. He (Mr. O'Connell) gave it a contra-
diction in detail, and Mr. Latouche took a week to reply
to him, but when be did so at the next meeting of the
society, he was silent as to the state of Ireland. With
respect to the information which may be acquired as to
the state of the couotry, the Hon. Member was mistaken
if he supposed that ample opportunities for gaining it did
not occur in professional pursuits such as his. He had
~,any such opportunities forced upon hint inn th.e course
of his practice, and he could state from the best authority,
that a client of his, with an estate worth &DOM a year
some time hack, did not receive more than 1001. at the
last rent day.
- • •

Lord MOLPETH said, it was not necessary to occupy
much of the attention of the House when all seemed to
be agreed in the general principle. He was much grati-
tied at the speech of his Hon. Friend, the Member for
Cumberland, not less by the importance of its details that,
for the patriotism of its sentiments. It was to him a
;water of indifference nitetbar the motion of his Hon.
Ft iced, or the resolution of the lion. Gent. opposite, was
agreed to. In either case the House were about to give a
new pledge to the country of reduction anti economy. The
Hon. Member for Essex had expressed himiteifoppoaed to
the motion of his Hon. Friend, on the ground of his look-
ing to other plans by which he considered that an arrange-
ment would be made in the way of adjustment between
the public creditor and the country ; but even supposing
that the lion. Member looked forward to some suelt mea-
sure, he would be the more bound in honour and con-
science not to resort to it, until lawful means had been
tried anti Csund unavailing, for there was no doubt that
each a plan would involve a violation of a legislative en-
gagement. However, all those who were favourable to such
a 'Denote oualit in the first instance, if they were sin-
cere, to unite and do all in their power to procure
die strieteet attention to economy and retrenchment.
And here he could not: avoid alluding to a Right
Pon. Gentleman, unhappily now no more, who had die-
sWguished himself throughout a long political life, by his
parieat, steady, and disinterested attention to economy. It
was hardly necessary f.,r him to say that he meant the
late Air, Tierney.--(Hear, hear.)—That Right Hon.
Gentleman had done himself more credit by his steady
perseverance in the.efforts to produce ecouotnieal reduction
than belonged to the successful struggles of more fortunate
though not more deserving individuals.—(Hear, hear.)—
He (Lord Morpeth) was happy to hive the opportunity in
that House, which his late Right Hon. Friend had so
often enlivened by his wit, and enlightened by biz wisdom,
of paying that tribute to his memory.—(Hear, hear.)--
With respect to the motions before the House, he was glad j
of them, and he would support either, for both would be
equally productive of good.
Mr. HUME expressed the satisfaction be entertained,
in common with the Noble Lord who had just sat doWn,
at the course proposed by the Hon. Member for Cumber-
land, and also at that moved by the Hon. Member (Mr.
Dawson). It was of little consequence which of them
the House adopted, but if he must make a choice, lie
,tinuld prefer that of the Secretary for the Treasury,
because it appeared to him less shackled and most
effective. When a similar address was carried to his
Majesty in 1820, they found that in the next year
the reductions niatle amounted to 2,000,0001. If the
House attended to this address, and watched the votes
atter it, they would find that retrenchment would go on,
and would nut have-to witness an increase of expenditure

which had been going on since 1822. Indeed, such was
the neglect of many Members on this head, that he was
surprised Ministers did not spend more, for there exlsztd
no effectual controul over them. On nights when the
'•stianates were to be discussed, it often happened that they
could hardly get Members enough to make a House. After
observing upon the necessity of constant watchfulness on
the part of the House, the Hon. Member went on to re-
mark, that the country was now in a condition to Call on
his Majesty for every kind of reduction; for that his Ma •
jesty, whenever he wanted money, never failed to come
down to that House to state his wants. Now, when the
distress of his people was admitted by his Ministers, it was
high time that their distresses should be considered, and
every means taken to alleviate them.

Sir J. WROTTESLEY was gratified at the motion,
and whether that 6r the amendment was agreed to, it
would do some good, but either or both would not be suf-
ficient to relieve the distresses of the country.
_ _ .

Mr. W. DUNCOMBE expressed a hope that Minis-
nisters might be induced to take the whole state of the
country into consideration.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said he had been forty-five years
a Member of that House, and during that time he had
acted with that party called the Whigs; but that party
was now almost gone from his side of the House, and he
was left nearly alone. However, that was not a reason
why he should oppose Ministers if he found them acting
for the good of the country. Looking at the situation in
which the country was placed, he thought it wrong to
attribute it to Ministers. They did not bring on the war.
He was one of a very small minority who opposed that
war, and predicted some of the calamities which would re-
sult from it, some of which were now unhappily in opera-
tion. He did not blame them, nor would he give his con-
fidence to those who, stating the distresses of the country,
would have it believed that they only could find a remedy
for them. It ought not to be forgotten that the present
Ministry had done much for the country since their ac-
cession to office. In confirmation of this, it was only ne-
cessary to allude to the emancipation of the Catholics, and
consequent settlement of Ireland, which was in itself suf-
ficient to entitle them to the lasting gratitude of all who
had at heart the domestic tranquillity of the country.—
( Hear, hear.)—He had formed no connexion with the
Members of this Administration, and might therefore put
to their most inveterate opponents a disinterested question.
He would ask, where were they to find a better?—(Hear,
and laughter.)—He certainly wished for economy and
retrenchment to be most rigidly pursued in every de-
partment where they could properly be brought into opera-
thin. The enormous expences of the Crown ought to be
diminished, the charges for building palaces should be
looked to, and the expenditure curtailed.—(Bear, hear.)
—Part (if the existing distress might with justice be
brought Otte to the landed proprietors themselves, who
were loudest in reproaches and complaints, as they, by in-
dulging in unreasonable expectations, were in fact the au-
thors of their own grievances. The value of their estates,
of 2,000/. per annum, had been raised to 3,000/. or
4,0001. a year in the time of war,--such at least, was the
case in his own neighbourhood ; and these gentlemen now
modestly wished to continue at the war prices, when every
thing about them had undergone so material a change.
It was impossible to satisfy demands of so preposterous A
nature, and equally impossible to convince them by ra-
tional argument so long as it was their interest to resist
conviction. He could mention an authentic anecdote of a
fat mer not far from where he resided, which somewhat
curiously illustrated this feeling, so common amongst his
fraternity. At the time when Buonaparte had unexpec-
tedly emerged from Elba, and made his memorable irrup-
tion into France, a country dealer was driving his herd of
pigs to market, when he chanced to be informed of the
event. Meeting a gossip of a neighbour, he began to give
utterance to sad misgivings as to the result of the sale of
his sixty pigs. But on being told, in reply to the usual
inquiry for news, that Nap (for that was their pet
name for the French Emperor) had gone back again
to France, he answered with great delight, that if that
was the case he would drive his pigs back again instead of
offering them in the market, which he actually did.—
(Loud lauughter.)—This story, he could assure the House,
was perfectly correct, as he was able to vouch for it him-
self. He would not have Ministers taken all of a sudden,
and loaded with charges which had neither been dispas-
sionately considered nor temperately brought forward.
Let them be allowed a fair trial, for that was only their
right, more especially as they had already done great
things for the country, and uniformly acted upon liberal and
enlightened principles. The distress of the popula-
tion, in his opinion, was not owing to any fault of theits,
and could not be justly laid to their charge. What could
they be expected to do for its reliel?—(Hear, from the
Opposition.) They had not the use of Aladdin's lamp,
nor were any of the Genii in the Arabian Nights' Enter-
tainments at their disposal. What, then, could thee do?
Some had suggested a paper circulation instead of gold ;
but to such recommendations he was in limine opposed.
A measure of this description would only create a fictitious
base currency, with nothing to support it, and which
therefore would draw down ruin en their heads in a year or
two after its first issue. Whatever might be our present
distress the remedy recommended would prove worse than
the disease.--(Hear.)
Mr. Secretary PEEL spoke to the following effect:—
As I understand the Hon. Member for Cumberland is dis-
posed to withdraw his resolutions, and to accept those
which have been moved by my Hon. Friend, I shall con-
fine myself to a very few observations on the question be-
fore us. But as a direct allusion has been made by the
Hon. Baronet to me and my financial measures, I think it
necessary to say something in answer to his remarks. I did
not expect that the Hon. Member would, on the present
occasion, have introduced the consideration of the best
means of establishing our currency on a better footing.—
This is certainly not the most convenient opportunity of
discussing that subject ; arid if, therefore, I do not fully
answer the Hon. Baronet's appeal, I trust that neither he
nor the House will imagine that it is from the slightest de-
sire on my part to shrink from the investigation of the
question whenever it may come before us in a distinct and
tangible shape, Still, however, I cannot allow even this
opportunity to pass, without stating that the Hon. Ba-
ronet, in the course of the very able speech which he ad•
dressed to the House this evening, made admissions on the
subject of the currency which tend completely to relieve
ate from all responsibility for the introduction of the Bill
of 1819. If the Hon. Baronet be prepared to act on the
principles which lie asserted, I will declare without hesi-
tation that should the situation of circumstances recur in
which the country was placed in 1819, he would be bound
in his own principles to support me in a repetition of the
measures of 1819. Sir, whenever I upproach the discus-
sion of this question—of this extensive, complicated, and
important question, I shall forget all political, or rather
all party considerations; I shall forget all the violent im-
putations which have been thrown upon me of Laving lent
myself to an act of cruelty, fraud, and robbery ; I shall
ask the House deliberately to consider the position in which
we were placed in 1819 ; -and, perfectly content to adopt
the principles of the Hon. Baronet, I shall inquire if there
was any alternative—if there was any mode by which we
could have escaped the evils by which we were at that pe-
riod threatened, other than by the adoption of the measure
which 1 introduced into the House. It is not the measure
of 1819, but, as the Hon. and Learned Member for Dur-
ham justly observed, it is the measures which preceded
that measure, and which imposed upon us the necessity of
adopting that measure, to which all the distress resulting
from the restoration of a legitimate currency ought to be
attributed. What you had to decide at that moment was,
whether you would revert to a legitimate standard, or
whether you would continue to stiffer all the inconveniences
and evils of the existing state of things. If you adopted.
any standard in preference to the existing state of things,
it was inevitable that you must cause a great pressure on
the country. And here I beg to touch on a very important
subject. What are the principles which the Hon. Baronet
has laid down with reference to the immediate question be-
fore us? The Hon. Baronet says, " I am content to take
as the basis of my proposition the Civil List as it was eats.
Wished in the year 1820, because the faith of Parliament
was pledged to the amount fixed at that period." Sir, I can-
not state too highly the importance which I attach to that
declaration. I perfectly agree with the principle thus as-
serted by the Hon. Bart. with reference to the Civil List.
But, I a.sk the J-lon. Baronet if he be prepared to adhere to
the C,ivil List of P2O, because the faith of Parliament was
pledged tea its amount, whether he will refuse to adhere to
those engagements which, during the continuance of the
war, Parliament made at successive times with the public
creditor ?—(Hear.)—l perfectly agree with the Hon, Ba-
ronet that we ought to adhere to the engagement which
we made in 1820 with respect to the Civil List; but I
will tell hint, that no engagement which Parliament en-
tered into in 1820 ought to be held more sacred than the
engagements which, at various periods, Patliainent en-
tered into with the public creditor. Every lean that was
contracted during the war was contracted with the distipct
understanding, that after the conclusion of the war means
should be adopted for its liquidation. 1 think that the Hon.
Baronet, with the principle of integrity which belongs to his
character, will find it difficult to contend that bacatiae the
public creditor made his bargain with the Government
at a time when, from peculiar eircumstances, the cure
rency was in a state of depreciation, he was not entitled
to be repaid on the conclusion of the war, and when the
Bank had returned to its original system. In truth, Sir,
it seems to me that the only difference between the Hon,

. -
Baronet and myself respects the standard which ought to
have been established. The Won. Baronet would prefer
joint silver and gold standard—l prefer a standard of
gold. On this point I will not now touch ; but when the
proper time shall arrive, I will state to the House the rea-
sons which, in 1819, induced me, in concurrence with the
.ipinion of some of the ablest men in the country, to
adopt a single standard, and that of gold. But, Sir, if
that really be the only difference between the Hon. Ba-
r art and myself, then I say that at least twenty of the
five and twenty per cent. of pressure resulting from the
restoration of a legitimate currency would have been pro-
duced by the Hon. Baronet acting on his own principles,
and establishing his joint standard. The Hon. Baronet's
admission, therefore, is most important to my ease, I
trust the House will remember the eloquent and impres-
sive terms in which the Hon. Baronet deprecated any
abandonment of the system of currency which has been
adopted. " You have it in your power (said the Hon.
Baronet) to restore a temporary prosperity to the
country ; you have it in your power to return to a small_
note circulation—and even a small-note circulation con-
vertible into gold. By adopting such a course, you will
for a time raise the spirit of commerce—you will fur a
time give a stimulus to enterprise; but this will be fol-
lowed by a corresponding exhaustion and languor ; and
the former scenes of ruin and distress will re-appear." In
every word of those sentiments I completely concur. I
repeat, therefore, that there is no matetial difference of
opinion between the Hon. Baronet and myself; and I am
persuaded that I should in 1819 have had the powerful
support and cordial advocacy of the Hon. Baronet. On
another point of thr Hon. Baronet's speech I perfeetly
agree with him. I am quite convinced that to permit the
re-issue of small paper, although with the provision that
that raper should be convertible into gold at the pleasure
of the holder, would afford only a temporary and precari-
ous relief to the country. I believe that the inevitable con-
sequence of such a proceeding, although it might occasion a
temporary prosperity, must eventually produce the depar-
ture of the gold currency. Experience has proved that
a gold currency and a small-paper currency cannot co-exist.
Sir, on this point we cannot argue from what takes place in
Ireland and Scotland. The circumstances of this country
are very different. If we were here to revert to the sys-
tem which we have relinquished, we might go on pro-
sperously for two or three years ; but the inevitable conse-
quences would be the departure of gold, an excess of
paper, unfavourable exchanges with foreign countries, a
sudden panic, a demand for gold, an inability to procure
it—as it would be no answer to the demand to say " We
have no funds," the instant reply being " We are entitled
to it,"—a general and simultaneous rush for gold, ultimate
disappointment, and general bankruptcy and ruin.—( Hear,
bear, hear.).—Thus, Sir, we should greatly aggravate the
evils which we are enduring, and again suffer all the cala-
mities through which we have recently passed. With re-
spect to my Hon. Friend's motion, I think the House will
plainly perceive that it is preferable to the motion of the
Hon. Baronet. For, certainly, it is but fair that before
the House enters upon the consideration of what further
reductions may advantageously be made, it ought to be in
possession, in a connected form, of what reductions have
already been made. I also prefer my Hon. Friend's motion,
because the Hon. Baronet's motion is calculated to excite
extravagant hopes that can never be realized. Nor was
the Lion. Baronet correct in his statement of facts. For
instance, he spoke of the increased pay of the army since
1797. Now the fact is that the pay of the army has
not been increased since 1797. His illustrations of the
statement were also exceedingly unfortunate; for they
were all, Governors and Bishops, civil not military. I
can assure the lion. Baronet that when he comes to deduct
what has already been done in the way of reduction, he
will, even on his own principles, entertain no sanguine
hope of such further reduction as may lead to any great
diminution of taxation. Such being the case, I hold it to
be much better not to excite hopes, than to excite them as
if for the purpose of disappointing them ; and on that
ground I certainly prefer my Hon. Friend's motion. For
the last resolution there is a precedent in a resolution
which was agreed to some years ago, on the motion of the
Hon. Member for Dorsetshire. Having stated, as my
Hon. Friend has stated, that the Crown has diligently
applied itself to such reduction as appeared advisable,
we can have no objection to other resolutions, declaring
it to be the opinion of this House that every further re-
duction ought to be made which can be made without.
injury to the public service. I will now, Sir, add a few
words on a subject of another kind. Much has been said in
the course of the present discussion on the existing state of
parties in this country. On that point I will frankly de-
clare that I am not aware of any accessions to his Majesty's
Government which have been accompanied by the slightest
compromise of principle.—(Hear.)—There is surely
nothing dishonourable on the part of those who approve of
the general policy of his Majesty's Government in giving
their aid towards carrying that policy into effect. With
respect to ourselves, our fixed intentions are simply to per-
severe in doing that which we believe it to be our duty to
do. We are well aware of the state of parties, and of
what may be the result of a combination of parties. In
the course of the last year we did a great act of duty—an
act which was certainly in contradiction to all our former
sentiments ; but an act which I then believed, and which I
still believe, was imposed upon us by a powerful and
overruling necessity. Sir, I cannot now, for the purpose
of conciliating the good-will of those to whom I gave
offence by my concurrence in that act, say that I repent
it.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lntervening experience has
convinced me that by pursuing the course which we did
pursue on the occasion to which I allude, we averted
from this country a great calamity, the pressure of
which, if it still existed, would be now most painfully
felt.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Allowing that there is distress
in Ireland, although not agreeing with some Hon. Mem-
bers that the distress is so extensive and universal as they
describe it to be, believe me, Sir, that if we had refused to
bring that long-agitated question of Catholic Emancipa-
tion to a close—if we had not persevered in what was con-
sidered by many persons as our obstinacy on that subject
—lreland would at the present moment be in a condition
eery different from that in which she actually is.—(Hear.)
—I firmly believe that from the settlement of that great
question greater benefits have resulted than even I had
anticipated ; and that it has been productive of fewer
dangers than I apprehended. Undoubtedly individual acts
of atrocity have since been perpetrated in Ireland. But
we must not judge of the general condition of the country
by the acts of individuals, still less by the gross exaggera-
tion of those acts which have gone forth to the public.
Of this I am persuaded, that the elements of future peace
and prosperity have been established in Ireland. Ido be-
lieve that there is as complete an oblivion of past animosities
among certain classes of the people as it was possible to
expect in so short a time; and I have no doubt
the example of these classes will generally diffuse it-
self among the rest of the comtnunity.—(Hear, hear,
hear.)—Feeling, therefore, the loss which I have
experienced in being deprived of the confidence of
those whom 1 respected and esteemed, and feeling also the
value of the sacrifices to which such a loss naturally led, I
cannot repurchase that confidence by an expression of the
slightest regret at the part which I took in that great ques-
tion.—(Hear, bear.)—l say, because I feel it to be my
duty to say, that with a perfect knowledge of the painful
results to myself, both as a private individual and a public
man, of the part which I took in forwarding Catholic
Emancipation, were the whole affair to be again trans-
acted, even were those sacrifices still greater than they
were, I would not shrink from pursuing the same course.
(Hear, bear.)—Sir, we made the great sacrifice which
we did make for the public good, and for the public good
alone. We have made, and we will make no sacrifices for
the purpose of keeping office. We are determined to per.
severe in that policy which we believe to be the most
advisable , in that policy, which, while it enables us to
maintain all the valuable institutions of the country, will
induce us to apply to those institutions that temperate re-
form which change of circumstances may have rendered
necessary. Whatever may appear to us to be conducive
to the permanent interests of the country, we will in-
stantly propose ; but we will not propose any measure
which cannot be lasting ; we will not, for the sake of a
temporary and fleeting popularity, involve the country in
a state of durable evil.—(Hear, bear.)—These are the
principles of our internal policy, as the preservation of
peace, if it can be preserved consistently with the honour
and just influence of the country, is the principle of our
foreign policy. Sir, I say it with perfect respect to all ;
hut, whatever combination of parties may occur in this
House, we feel that there is a prevailing good sense in the
country, which, without reference to ultra-Whig, or ultra-
Tory, will ultimately sanction and confirm the course
which it is our intention to pursue.—[The Right Hon.
Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheers
Mr. ATTWOOD reminded the Right Hon. Secretary
that he had subsequently abandoned every ground which
had been laid down for the Bill of 1819. But for his
Bill, according to his own admission salaries of public
officers would have been lowered 25 per cent.
Mr. PEEL had never intended to admit that the Bill
of 1819 had caused an alteration in the value of articles to
the amount of 20 per cent. He protested against such 4
conclusion, and was convinced that no issue of notes lower
-than 5/. ought to be permitted, In conclusion, he hoped
to see the day when a'l fetters would he struck off banking
for ever.
Mr. C. LUMLEY was glad to hear the Right Hon.
Gentleman give an opinion as he had done that evening,