The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-12 00:00:00

t_ Lord J. RUSSELL would be glad if any Hon. Gen-
lernan .would, in a definite measure, state his views as to
what sort of a settlement lie considered should be intro-
duced into Ireland.—( Hear.)
Mr. J. GRATTAN considered the Bill without a set-
tlement would not be productive of good, although he did
not wish to urge the immediate discussion of the question.
Sir J. GRAHAM considered the Noble Lord, in not
introducing- a settlement into the Irish Bill, was halting
short of the principle Le professed to lay down, that all des-
titution should have a claim to relief.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN hoped the Government would not
introduce a settlement unless it was to give a pauper a
right to relief in his own district.
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed most fully in the principle
that destitution should be entitled to claim relief. He
suggested that some Hon. Gentleman should bring the
point before the House to-morrow, before the discussion of
the 421 clause.
Mr. SHAW was prepared at the proper time to move
that relief in the workhouses should be confined to the sick,
the aged, and the impotent.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that if they went into the ques-
tion of settlement at all they should do so specifically and
definitively.—(Hear.) He could not conceive how, consi-
dering that the poor of Ireland amounted to nearly
8,000,000, and that giving a settlement was giving what he
supposed a right---( Hear)—how they could accede that
right to so great a number, for, of course, they would all
have an equal claim.
Sir R. BATESON was in favour of rendering it incum-
bent an every man who had property to pay a rate for the
relief of the poor in his own district. He was willing to
give the Government time to make up their minds upon
this subject.
Lord J. RUSSELL was not unwilling to discuss the
point, that night, but thought it would be better if postponed
till to-rnorrow.
After a few words from Sir R. Musgrave, Lord Cle-
ments, and Mr. Goulburn,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD would postpone his amendment
for the present.
Mr. O'CONNELL declared that his vote upon the
clause would entirely depend upon what decision the House
should come to on the question of settlement.—(Hear.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (as did also some other
Hon. Members) then stated that he had amendments to
propose to the clause, when
Lord STANLEY rose, and said that he also had an
Amendment to propose to this clause. He objected to the
Bill interfering with the present established and well-known
limits of boundaries of property in Ireland. He would not
now go into the general question of a settlement, but this
much he would say, that he could not see how the Bill
could be made to work well without the introduction of
some law of settlement into it. The Noble Lord then
begged to move the introduction of the following words into
the clause :—" That the Commissioners be empowered to
unite such and so many parishes and town lands in Ireland
as they shall think fit for the relief of the existing poor."
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would have no objection to
the wendment, reserving to himself the right of objection
on a future occasion, should he see occasion to do so.
After a discussion, in which Mr. F. Shaw, Sir R. Bate-
son, Mr. O'Connell, and other Hon, Members took part,
The amendment was agreed to.
Mr. LUCAS then moved an amendment, to the effect
that the operations of each union be confined to 20 square
miles, unless the population be under 6,000. The object of
hi 3 amendment was to decrease the unmanageable extent of
the unions as proposed by the Bill.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL opposed the amendment. If
the amendment were agreed to, the Commissioners would
be bound to provide an union wherein there was a popula-
tion of six thousand persons, even 'where the district might
not afford a sufficient number of persons fit to constitute
the Board of Guardians. He thought a largo discretion
ought to be left with the Commissioners.
Lord STANLEY concurred in the view of the Noble
Lord that the Commissioners should not be restricted,
but have a discretionary power. On the other hand, a
Population of eighty thousand in one large district would
be almost unmanageable by any Board of Guardians.
Lord CLEMENTS opposed the amendment.
Mr. LUCAS was disposed, after the discussion that
bad taken place, to withdraw the amendment, and leave
the alteration that he desired to effect dependent on the
question of settlement. lie thought the addition of " towns-
lands " very important.
Mr. W. L. O'BRIEN thought it important to add such
a proviso.
The amendment was withdrawn.

Mr. WYSE said, whether the law of settlement was
obtained or not, he thought it desirable that there should
be most minute subdivisions of districts, in order to repress
the dispOsition to seek for relief as much as possible.
Lord HOW ICK thought that his Noble Friend was
unnecessarily alarmed at the size of these unions. If he
would refer to Mr. Nicholl's report he would find there
fully stated the reasons which influenced his arrangement
of unions. The principle of Mr. Nicholl's report, as re-
spected unions, was to select some principal market town,
to which the roads and communications from the surround-
ng districts converged, and of which it was the common
and convenient centre. He did not think that such a dis-
pOsition as had been manifested ought to exist for the pur-
pose of interfering with, or restricting, the powers of the
Commissioners.

Lord C---LEIIIENTS did not wish to limit the power of
the guardians ; but if they were to manage the unions
by unpaid guardians they could not effect their objects by
having such large unions. If they had paid guardians they
Would not find the same difficulty as respected tho size of
unions.

Mr. JAMES GRATTAN said, whoever had the carry-
ing of this Bill into effect ought to Lave absolute power,
or otherwise the arrangements necessary to carry it into
operati on could not so well be effected. He thought no
opportunity should be given fer jobbing. There was a
great tendency to jobbing in Ireland, though latterly they
were getting rid of it.
Mr. P. THOMSON did not wish to have the House
misled by the notion that paid guardians were to be ap-
pointed. There would be a great inconvenience in limiting
the size of unions. He hoped his Noble Friend would
leave this matter to the decision of the Commissioners.
Mr. GOULBURN thought it would be right to leave
this matter to the decision of the Commissioners. He did
not think, certainly, that an unlimited power of appoint-
ing guardians ought to he left to the Commissioners ;
but if' they acted on the same principles as they did in
this country, he did not think any inconvenience would
arise, and lie thought it would be the best course to adopt.
Mr. LYNCH thought that they could not legislate,
on the whole, without perhaps pressing on some parties
more than on others. He did not think that inconvenience
was found with respect to the situation of infirmaries in
Ireland, which were generally in the midst of large districts.
Sir J. GRAHAM did not think it advisable to limit
the district unions to the extent proposed.
Mr. LENNARD was inclined to agree in the sugges,
tion, to leave a discretionary power in the hands of the
Commissioners, relative to the number of workhouses which
should be erected.
Mr. WOULFE said, that because this was a new expe-
riment, as great and extensive a power should be given to
the Commissioners as possible. They would thus be less
likely to make mistakes than if they decided, a priori,
riori, on
the cases which might occur.
Mr. E. COOPER thought the proposed amendment
unnuessary.
Mr. WYSE was decidedly in favour of a large union, in
preference to one of a contracted size. If the unions were
large, the business must be better done.
Lord CLEMENTS was desirous that the House should
decide with clearness and certainty on the size of the unions
to be erected. That was the purport of his amendment.
Mr. O'CONNELL had never said that the Bill now
before the House would amount to confiscation, He .had
only said it'would put a stop to the present resources which
the poor of Ireland possessed, and that it would prove alto-
gether inadequate for the purpose it was framed to effect.
The moment a rate was levied, the present practice of giv-
ing charity would cease, and considerable irritation would
arise. As to the Noble Lord's amendment, lie thought it
unnecessary, and would recommend him to withdraw it.
After a few words from Mr. FINCH, the amendment
uas withdrawn;
On clause 16 being proposed,
Sir J. GRAHAM asked why, when in England a union
could not be dissolved without -the consent of two-thirds
of the guardians, a different system had been adopted in
Ireland ?

Lord J., RUSSELL said that as that plan bad been
fourid inconvenient in this country a different system was
determined on for Ireland.
Sir J. GRAHAM should move that " no alteration,
dissolution, or addition of any kind should take place with-
out the concurrence of the guardians therein."
After a few observations from Mr. S. O'BRIEN,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if it was the wish of the
Committee to adopt the proviso he had no objection to it.
The amendment was then adopted, and the clause
agreed to.
On clause 1 being put,
Captain JONES was of opinion that no election for
guardians should take place until all the workhouses were
erected.—(Hear.)
Lord MORPETH dissented froni the opinion of the
!lon. Member, as it would bring the entire operations of
tile Government to a stand-still.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the pressure would be so
great upon particular districts if workhouses were not
1. ened simultaneously, that it would be productive of most
jurious consequences. (Hear.)
Lord STANLEY thought to make the mcasuro effec•