The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 12, 1839.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

Lord MELBOURNE said he had not the least
objection to do so.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he- had heard
of this circular, and t*o or three thingi bixd occurred
to him upon it. *, He' vvislicd*to 'know whether or not
the Noble ViSconiat -badiirlYerted to the powers given
to Magistrates by the Acts of the late King, requiring
them to swear in special constables, and whether those
were the persons who it was the intention of Govern-
ment should be the persons armed under the. directions
given by the Secretary of State. That was a
point which he wished to understand. In the
next place, under the Act for regulating Cor-
porations, which passed in the year 1835, which was
greatly discussed in their Lordships' House at the time,
there was a power given to those Corporations to form
a police, and to enable them to raise funds to maintain
thatlpolice ; and indeed an Act of Parliament, to which
he had referred, in the reign of Geo. 11., enabled towns
to raise a watch-ward. Were those the people, he wished
to ask, who were to be armed in consequence of this cir-
cular ? Those were points which ought to have been
adverted to when considering this measure. Now sup-
pose that the Mayor of Bath took it into his head to
arm, in the present year, a body of men of one political
opinion, and that next year another Mayor, of another
opinion and of a different party, armed another body,
what would be the consequences ? These were points
worthy of consideration. He should be glad, therefore,
if the Noble Viscount would allow the House to see the
papers and circulars connected with the subject, and
under the instructions contained in which, the Lords
Lieutenant of Counties, Sheriffs and Mayors, acted
in arming the inhabitants of their districts.
Viscount MELBOURNE had no objection to lay
upon the table the instructions that had been issued to
the Lieutenants and Sheriffs of counties on the subject.
It certainly was not the intention of the Government that
the parties to whom allusion had been made should be
armed. At the same time he thought it was in the
power of the Magistrates, or the Town Councils to
arm the inhabitants in certain cases.--(Hear, hear,
from the Duke of Wellington.) Unquestionably the in-
tention of his Noble Friend the Secretary of
State was to permit the formation of armed
associations for the protection of life and property, and
that permission had been given to them subject to the
centroul and under the instructions of the Deputy Lieu- 1
tenants and Magistrates.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said if the Mayors
of boroughs authorised the arming of any bodies of men,
they were responsible, not to the Corporation, but to
the law, for their acts.--( Hear, hear.) In the present
case, however, no party was responsible ; the present
Mayor of Bath might be a Chartist, and arm 1,000 men,

and in Nov. next another Mayor of different politics
might place 1,000 men of a different political

opinion under arms. Such a state of things could
only be productive of the greatest mischief to life and
property.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH believed some difficulty
had arisen in consequence of the contradictory instruc-
tions given and the want of precision in thc., two circu-
lars issued by the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for
the Hoine Department. As he understood it, arms were
given to certain associations for the protection of life and
property, but the Secretary of State issued another
circular to the Magistrates, by which they were di-
rected to put in force the law against any parties
found training for martial purposes. Under the first
circular, the parties having obtained arms wished to
acquire some degree of military instruction, but the
moment they commenced training for that purpose they
wore taken up by the Magistrates under the second
circular.

THE BEER BILL.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY brought up the
Report of the Committee on the Beer Bill.
• Lord BROUGHAM said that as a Noble Friend of
his who took a deep interest in the Bill was now absent
from town, and would be so for some days, unwillingly
he was compelled to postpone the further proceedings
on the Bill until Monday next.
Lord ELLEN BO ROUG H said though he doubted
the expediency of the House passing such a Bill, still it
was important to know whether it would really be
precsed during the present session. He confessed it was
very unlikely that it would be postponed, still as that
seemed to be the order of the day with all important
measures, such a thing might happen.
Lord BROUGHAM could positively assure the
Noble Lord that although he sat in that neighbourhood
he had not contracted any of what he might call the
dilatory
diapethis and there was not the remotest
chance of his Bill being postponed until the Greek
Kalends, or, what was now the same, the year 1842_
(Laughter)—or beyond Monday next.
Lord MELBOURNE thought it would be as well
to suspend the Standing Orders of the House, in order
to pass the Bill. Considering the immense amount of
property affected by the Bill, they were pursuing a very
hasty course.
Lord BROUGHAM said it had been proved that
parish paupers were the keepers of these houses—that
they very seldom had more than a table and chair, with
a broken jug or two. 1 t was ridiculous to talk of the
immerse property involved in the consideration
1 of the Bill. Considering that they had not had any Royal

HOUSE OF LORDS, JuNzt 11.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'Clock.
The Marquis of BRISTOL presented a retition
praying for the adoption of a penny postage.
Lord LOVELACE presented a petition from tl.e
beer-house-keepers of Liverpool, praying for the same
privileges as those possessed by licensed victuallers.
The Noble Lord presented petitions from the city of
Exeter and various other places in the county of Devon,
praying for the adoption of a penny postage.
Lord CAM PERDOWN presented a petition from
Auchterarder praying for the adoption of a penny
postage.
Earl STANHOPE presented a petition from Brad-
ford to the same effect.
Lord PORTMAN presented a petition to the same
effect.
Lord WROTESLEY presented a petition from a
place iu Suffolk, praying that all business might be sus-
pended on the Sabbath day.
The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented peti-
tions from the counties of Argyle and Forfar in favour
of Church extension in Scotland ; also several
petitions praying for a penny postage.
The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from
several places in the county of Durham, against the
Government plan of national education.
ARMING.
The Duke of BEAUFORT wished to put a ques-
tion to the Noble Viscount opposite with regard to a
circular letter which had been issued by the Secretary
of State for the Home Department to Lords Lieute-
nant of certain counties, tendering, as it was supposed,
arms to certain Assoeiations.—(Hear, hear.) It ap-
peared to him (the Noble Duke) that that letter must
have been very badly understood by some, and very in-
differently understood by others. Most of their Lord-
ships would have seen a letter from an Association,
calling themselves the Salford Radical Association,
asking to be furnished with 12,000 stand of arms.
An application of a somewhat similar nature had
been made from Bath. Now he could not conceive any-
thing more pregnant with danger than that a measure of
this sort should be carried out to its full extent. Large
bodies of men had enrolled themselves in associations, and
if they were to be armed the consequences would be the
most dangerous. He never could think that that could
have been the intention of Government, and if it was
not, the intention had not been well understood.—
(Hear, licar.) He (the Noble Duke) had received
various communications from persons in parts that
he was connected with, wishing to form themselves into
associations for the purpose of being armed. And the
answer that he had invariably given to them was to advise
them to do no such thing. If such men were to be armed
without being under any military control, he could con-
ceive nothing they could do but mischief. He objected
to those associations altogether, although there was a
Reform Association, than which he believed nothing
could be more harmless. However, he wished to know
from the Noble Viscount what the intentions of the Go-
vernment were in the issuing of the circular to which he
alluded.
Lord MELBOURNE entirely agreed with the
general principles laid down by the Noble Duke. He
quite agreed that it was not expedient that any body of
the people should be armed, nor that should they be
armed except under the controul of an Officer
bearing her Majesty's commission.—(Hear.) That
was his opinion, but there might be a case where the
danger was so great that it might be necessary in some
degree to depart from that principle ; and that he ap-
prehended had been the occasion of the circular issued
by his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State ; such as in
consequence of men arming—in consequence of menacing
appearances in many parts of the country—appearances
which, as upon many other occasions, seemed to be ex-
tremely menacing, but which, as soon as they ap-
proached the point of danger, had, as they had done
before, dissipated and sunk into nothing. But,
in consequence of particular apprehensions in certain
counties, he believed his Noble Friend had issued a
circular to the Lords Lieutenant of those parts where
danger seemed to be the most imminent, stating that if
they, in their discretion, and upon their responsibility,
would state that any body of men was formed to pre-
serve the public peace, he should have no objection to
furnish them with arms, leaving it entirely to the Lords
Lieutenant to decide what bodies should be furnished
with arms, and they coming to that decision upon their
own responsibility. He (the Noble Viseount) trusted
it would not be necessary to act on that circufar to any
greater extent than had already been, and he quite
agreed that it was not in general quite an eligible mode
of proceeding, nor one that ought to be extended or
acted upon except in cases of inamineEt danger.
The Duke of WELLINGTON wished to know
from the Noble Viscount if he had any objections to lay
the circular before the House, with the names of the
Lords Lieutenant to whom it was addressed, and any
other instructions that had been issued at the same
time.