The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-11 00:00:00

THE SON, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 11, 1863.

State. I trust, from the action of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, such cases will not happen again to British subjects,
but with regard to Mr. Belsbam I cannot tell where he is.
We have heard no more of him since the statement received
from Mr. Moore.
Mr, GREGORY—I wish to ask the hon. gentleman the
Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs two questions, which
I think he can answer at once. The first is, when he spoke
of torture being applied to a British subject, did he mean
torture, and that it was employed on the part of the autho-
rities of the Confederate Government ? (Hear, hear.) The
second question is, whether, inasmuch as this is a very grave
affair, he will lay all the papers connected with the case on
the table of the house ?
Mr. LAYARD—I am afraid that torture, in the strict
sense of the word, has been inflicted, and I am bound to say
that these acts were committed by persons apparently acting
under the general authority of the Confederate Government,
but at a distance from the seat of Government. On Monday
nest I will state whether the papers can be produced.
THE PATRIOTIC FUND.

Col. NORTH asked the hon. member for Chichester if he
intended to name a day to move for a select committee to in-
quire into the management and present condition of the
Patriotic Fund.
Mr. J. A. SMITH said he intended to move an address
for a Royal commission for inquiry into the subject instead
of a select committee ; but, inasmuch as there was to be a
meeting of Royal commissioners on Tuesday next, he should
await its result.

THE PACKET SERVICE.
Mr. HEYGATE asked the Secretary to the Treasury,
under what contract or engagement her Majesty's mails
were now carried between Dover and Calais, and Dover and
Ostend respectively; and when any eontract which might
have been entered into by her Majesty's Government would
be laid upon the table of the house.
Mr. F. PEEL replied that these services were at pre-
sent being carried on under conditions which had been
agreed on between the Post-office, the railway companies,
and the Belgian Government respectively. The contract
for the Dover service, embodying those conditions, had
been prepared and sent to the railway companies for their
examination and approval, and they hal been urged to
send a speedy answer. With respect to Belgium, it was
proposed to have an additional convention.
RECOGNITION OF THE CONFEDERATE STATES.
Sir J. FERGUSSON rose to ask his hon. and learned
friend the member for Sheffield a question of which he had
given him notice; but as it was necessary, considering the
importance of the subject, that he should make some obser-
vations, with a view of putting himself in order, he moved
the adjournment of the house. He should, however, ab-
stain from saying a word on the merits of the question, and
all he wished to express was a feeling which he believed
was shared in by many hon. members on both sides of the
house, who concurred in the object the hon. and learned
member had in view, that the present moment was one in
which the question could not be discussed and a judgment
pronounced with advantage to Great Britain or the Southern
or Northern States. Since the hon. and learned member
brought his resolution before the house, a great change had
taken place in the state of the contest between the two re.
publics in North America. A war, which up to that time
had been defensive, now appeared to have assumed the
character of one carried on for the purposes of retribution
on the part of the South against the North. It must be
evident to all who had noticed the intelligence that had
reached us within the last few days, that it might fairly be
presumed that events greater than any that had hitherto
taken place were approaching, and it was not improbable
that the solution of the question at issue might be at hand.
(Hear, hear.) Under those circumstances, he ventured to
submit to the hon. and learned member for Sheffield and
the house, that a decision now come to by the house could
not express their real feelings upon the question, or operate
with any beneficial influence on the question in America.
It wee evident that if the debate was resumed on Monday,
it would be either negatived unanimously or defeated
by a very large majority. (Hear, hear.) In that case, a
false impression of the feeling of the House would go
forth. (Hear. hear.) The action of the Government
would be hindered thereby if they saw their way at an early
period to a recognition of the South, and a feeling of irrita-
tion and deep disappointment would rest on the minds of the
people of the Southern States, A few months ago, if recog-
nition had been generously proposed by this country, it
might have been attended by bezkeficial results, and have
stayed the effusion of blood, and have established in the
minds of the South a claim of gratitude for the action this
country had taken. (Hear, hear,) But now, if the motion
should be successful, should the action of the South force a
peace on the North, they would not thank us f(,,c the action
we were taking. If, on the other hand, the extodition of
the South into the North should prove a failure, irt what
position would the house stand P (Hear, hear.) Thee'efore
whether the motion was successful or unsuccessful, he ven-
tured to submit that the hon. and learned member coed
produce no beneficial result, and that it had better be with-
drawn till'a convenient time. (Hear, hear.) The present
was not a time for action, but silent observation. With re-
gard to the personal matters that had been introduced into
the debate, he felt sure the house would give the hon. and
learned member an opportunity of explaining. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Perhaps my hon. and learned
friend will allow me to second the request that has been
made to him by the hon. and gallant officer, viz., that he
would con-ent to drop the continuance of the debate
which stands for Monday. I think the circumstances
which have been adverted to by the hon. and gallant officer
are of themselves sufficient to show that this is not a mo-
ment when it is desirable for a discussion of that kind.
(Hear, hear.) Events of the utmost importance are now
taking place in America. We may hear in a few days of re-
sults commensurate with their importance, and it is un-
doubtedly not a proper moment to ask her Majesty's Govern-
ment to pledge itself with regard to future action. It is not
likely, I think, that the house would agree either to the
motion of my hon. and learned friend, or the amendments
suggested. I think it would be very disadvantageous to the
public service that any such resolution should be adopted—
(hear, hear)—and therefore the discussion, for any practical
results, would have no important effect. I can assure my
hon. friend and the house that, whereas I think it is now
plainly acknowledged by everybody that the wishes of the
Emperor of the French to find a fitting opportunity for that
acknowledgment are not altered or changed, and, on the other
hand, her Majesty's Government, who at the present mo-
ment do not see that that fitting opportunity has arisen, are
willing at all times to exchange opinions with the French
Government, not only on that, but on every other matter of
great interest in which we have a common concern. (Hear.)
On public and general grounds, therefore, I should urge him
to comply with that request. But there is another circum-
stance, peculiar to the present debate, which I think makes
it kill more desirable. It is hardly possible that the debate
could he resumed without the resumption of the discussion
of what passed between my hon. and learned friend and the
hon. member for Sunderland, in their interview with the
Emperor of the French. Now it was quite natural that they
should have sought that interview. My hon. friend the
member for Sunderland, as we well know, has frequently
had interviews with the Emperor of the French upon those
questions on which he has taken a very active part in this
house, viz,, questions relating to navigation; and we knew

and were perfectly cognisant of those interviews. The;

fore, it was quite natural that they should see the Emperor
of the French, and it was equally so his seeing them, and
that they should express their opinions upon American

questions. But I humbly venture to submit to them that
the question as to what passed in an interview between
two private gentlemen, even though they are members of

this house, and a foreign sovereign, is not a question
fitting to be discussed in this house. (Cheers.) It
must naturally lead to explanations on both sides,

and that, like all public explanations of priVate conversa-
tions, lead not only to unpleasant feelings on both sides,
but tend to prevent the Emperor of the French from con-
tinuing that courteous and useful reception which he so

graciously is pleased to give to all Englishmen of note—
(hear, hear)—who come furnished with information that

may be useful to the friendly relations of the two countries.

It is obvious that that disposition which he has so eminently,
and which is so useful. so honourable to him, so useful to
the interests of the two countries, must be changed if he

reels that what passes in the abandon of private intercourse

is to be made the subject of public discussion in the British

House of Commons. (Hear.) It is impossible the debate

can be resumed without leading in some way or other to the
revival of that discussion, and therefore I hope my hon. and
learned friend will consent to drop it ; and that my hon.
friend the member for Sunderland, who has hitherto taken

no part in this discussion, would continue that discreet
passiveness which he has hitherto preserved, and that he
will be content to let the matter rest. No onehas any right
to blame him for the part he took in going to the Emperor
of the Preach, and communicating with him as he did, but
I think he would feel, as the house must feel, that, with a
view not only
to the good relations between the two powers,
but with a view to the continuance of that access to the
person of the Emperor by British subjects of note which it
is desirable to maintain, it is much better that nothing
should be said further on the subject, either in future dis-
cussions on this subject, or when my hon. and learned friend
the member for Sheffield rises to state his acquiescence in
the recommendation that has been made to him. (Hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY—I have borne in silence the reproaches
that have been cast upon me by the organ of her Majesty's
Government. I have been condemned before I have been

___ _......_ ... _... ......„..
heard. I will not go into the subject,.. but I may be
allowed to state one or two matters. The house will be

aware that I brought under its consideration, three or
four years ago, a resolution that her Majesty would be
oh ased to enter into negotiations with the Emperor of the
French for the abolition of certain duties. By the request
of the Government, I had a long interview with the Em-
peror and Lord Cowley on that important subject, and I
had reason to believe that the Emperor was pleased with
the views I placed before him. I have been labouring for
three years almost alone upon this great subject ; and his
Majesty was pleased to appcint a council to inquire into the
subject, and I have reason to hope that he still feels that
this great change would be for the advantage of his people
as well as for this country. In the course of the discussion,
which Lord Cowley did not presume to understand, it was
necessary for me to see the Emperor's Ministers very often;
but all that ever took place was known both to Lord Cowley
and the Ministry in this country. Knowing that I had
been in America, it was his Majesty's pleasure to speak to

me with reference to this lamentable war, and I ventured
to express my opinions frankly ; butnever dtoid
soanyetowmo red,
ecrossth e rmuyp loinp s
tohfe what
maritime hie M
questionsa jesty was
orupon any other pleased
the questions involved, until the 23d of last month, when
it it was his pleasure I should make them known if 1 thought
stating an friend is but too
proper. Perhaps, however, in any event, I would not have
divulged all that my hon, friend has stated. Perhaps I
could not have adopted the same toonwen a . (Hear, hear.) Still
I nmn
au seb I d
sayalt
nug that what a
n felln not
frombring
rng
d my
hon.d
b proving to the
purpose—
that
; seandtbal tam desirous
atatement is too trite. The question is
of
notebook for the
a very delicate one; but I could have
roved
re-
ference to books or notes—which under no
without
no circumstances
I would produce—that the despatch referred to by my hon,
and learned friend was not the despatch referred to by the
Under-Secretary as the despatch of November,
and which
had been published in the Noniteur, but aesd patch written
about the month of February; and that despatch
that there was too much truth in the proves
rumoure with respect to
u
it. However, Igo no further into the as I con-
sider the statement of the noble lord of question,
rethan any obloquy cast upon me, inasmuch
as
ft concerns
the
peace and happiness of 10,000,000 of people and holding the
opinion that if the word "recognition" was
pronounced
concert with the Emperor of the French and otherin
Powers,
that word would go forth to the States as a harbingerof
peace—that the people of the Western States would rec e
it with joy, and that many in the North would also haileeivit
with joy, instead of bringing about war-.I say that the con-
sideration of the question is a thousand times of greater
consequence than any contumely or reproach that may be
passed upon an individual so humble as myself. Ido feel
for the Southern people. I feel that they are a nation—that
they are a down-trodden nation--(cheers)---and therefore I
want my hon. and learned friend not to give an answer to
the question put to him by my hon. and gallant friend unth
he has had full time to consider the statement of the noble
lord, and the extent to which the Government may be pre-
pared to go towards coinciding in the well-known views of
the Emperor of the French. It will be time enough for my
lion. and learned friend to say on Monday whether he will
go on or not. Another reason for hesitation is that the
Scotia is due, and we may have before Monday important
intelligence that will induce the Government to come forward
and say that the time has arrived to acknowledge the South,
and put an end to this useless war. I think my hon. and
learned friend will exercise both caution and prudence in not
giving a hasty answer to the appeal made to him, but that
he will wait until Monday for the purpose. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAM said no middle course was open to
them, and that the question ought not to be allowed to hang
over, Mr. Beecher—(laughter)—had told him that the
eyes of North America were fixed upon the conduct of
England—(renewed laughter)—and that nothing had
struck him with more admiration than the course which
the working classes of Lancashire had followed throughout
the contest. The working classes of Lancashire had been
throughout strong supporters of the Federal cause. (Loud
cries of " No, no.") He spoke advisedly. Some 150 meet-
ings had been held in the manufacturing districts, and at
these meetings, with the exception of some ten or twelve,
resolutions were carried in favou, of the North. In con-
clusion, the hon. member declared his firm belief that if the
hon. member for Sheffield went to a division he would find
himself in a disastrous y. (Cries of "No, no.")
Lord PALMERS i ON—I desire to make this explana-
tien. I think the hon. member for Sunderland (Mr. Lind-
say) seemed to imagine that I gave some pledge that on
Monday her Majesty's Government would state the course
which they intended to pursue. Now I said no such thing.
Mr. LINDSAY—What I said was that, as the Scotia
mould be due before Monday, information might reach the
country which would induce the Government to alter the
views which they seem to hold.
Mr. KINGLAKE desired to express his earnest hope
that the house would not too readily accept the principle
laid down by the noble lord at the head of the Govern
ment. A question so very novel was involved, that it
deserved the most serious attention of the house. The
argument of the noble lord against discussion would have
been very cogent and applicable before the speech of the
hon. member fur Sheffield—(heer, hear)—but now that they
had become possessed of the subject, it was evident that
matters were before them pre-eminently calling for obser-
tion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE—I, for one, never doubted the vera-
city of my hon. and learned friend the member for Sheffield.
(Hear.) I have known him too long not to know that he
is incapable of stating what is not the fact ; but, at the
same time, I must be allowed to state that I have not the
same confidence as to his disci etion—(hears hear, and
laughter)—and, if he will allow me to add, I think he is not
acting fairly towards the house in keeping the question
hanging over till Monday. I have the fullest confidence, as
regards American affairs, in her Majesty's Government. I
think they het7e conducted the American business all
through with singular ability, and that they deserve the
confidence of the house as regards this question. Ido en-
treat my hon. and learned friend not to keep the matter
hanging over us. but to state at once, "aye" or "nay,"
whether the question is to be broug-
ht before us on Monday
_ evening. (Hear, hear )
Mr. GREGORY asked, was the hon. an learned mem-
ber for Sheffield satisfied with what had taken* place that
evening ? For himself, he must say he had heart' _nothing
that evening to relieve the hon. and learned member 1..-0113
the charge of inaccuracy. lie considered it most impor-
tant that the country should know the real truth of the
question, fur enough had come out of these personal
matters to show that the whole ought to be made known.
(Hear, hear.) Indeed, enough had fallen from the hon.
member for Sunderland to show that the country did not
know the real state of the case. With respect, how-
ever, to the great political question involved, he agreed it
was infinitely better that the discussion should not be
continued ; and for this reason he had no doubt there would
be a very large majority against the motion; not because
of any sympathy on the part of the house with the cause of
the North-- (cries of No, no)—for he believed that the hon.
member for Brighton (Mr. Coningham) and all those who
thought with him, could be carried away in a single omni-
bus. (Laughter and cheers.) Still, he wished to prevent
the chance of its going forth to the werld that the opinion
of the House of Commons was against the independence of
the Southern Confederacy.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER, would put it to the house whether
it was desirable that the question should be allowed to drop
after the discussion of a single evening. The argument of
the noble lord was very efficient about its being brought
forward at all ; but nothing had been stated to show that
they ought not to come to a conclusion, once the question
was fairly before them •
Mr, NEWDEGATE said the common sense of the ques-
tion before them was this, was every section of that house
to have a diplomacy of its own for carrying on negotiations
with foreign Powers ? He thought the House of Commons
ought to mark its sense of the unconstitutional attempt of
the hon, member for Sheffield to import a foreign element
into their discussions.
Lord R. CECIL said that if anything could convince
the hon. and learned member for Sheffield of the advisa-
bility of acceding to the appeal made to him, it was the
course of the discussion that evening. Those who urged
the hon. member not to press his motion to a division
were, one and all, friends to the South. including the hon.
baronet the member for Ayrshire (Sir J. Fergusson), and
their well-known Confederate Premier. (Laughter.) On
the other hand the only persons who urged him to go on
were the hon. members for Bradford and Brighton.
(No, no, from Mr. Coninghana.) Well, at all events, he
was urged by the hon. member for Bradford (Mr. Forster),
who was a fanatic on the side of the North, to go to a divi-
sion, in the hope, no doubt, to steal a vote in favour of the
North. He believed, however, that his hon. and learned
friend was too wise to tare advice from Federal zealots,
whose anxiety was, not to establish a principle of interne-
, tional law, but to render some slight assistance to the
Northern cause in die days of supreme agony, (Hear.)
Considering the important intelligence that was travelling
across the Atlantic, considering the military operations
which had been reported already in the City and in
that
house, and considering the effect which that news might
produce, he thought the hon. and learned gentleman would
act wisely in reserving his decision until Monday.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that amid the multitude of coun-
sellors there was safety ; and he would accept the advice of
the noble lord who had just sat down, and would give his
answer on Monday next. He thought a very much better
answer might be given before that day ; but, as the hon.
member for Galway had drawn a distinction between the
personal and the political, he was bound, in justice
to him-
self, to say that he would also give an answer to hat on
Monday.
Mr. LAYARD said, after what bad fallen from the hon.
member for Galway and the hon. member for Sunderland,
he could not remain quite silent. He would, in the first
place, put the bon. member for Galway right upon one
point. The hon. member intimated that he (Mr. Layard)
stated that Baron Gros had not left a copy of the despatch
to which he had referred. Now, he had said nothing of the
kind. What he had stated was that a copy of the despatch
had not been left with her Majesty's Government, because
it was not a confidential despatch, but a public one, having
been previously published in the lioniteur. With respect
to the remarks of the honourable member for Sunderland,
he would remind the house that the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield had made two allegations—first, that a
communication had been made to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, earnestly wishing to ascertain whether they were pre-
pared to unite with the Government of the Emperor in re-
cognising the independence of the Confederate States .
secondly, that a despatch had been communicated to the Go-
vernment at Washington which had been confidentially
sent by the French Emperor to her Majesty's Government;
and that on that account the Emperor declined making
another proposal to her Majesty's Government. The answer
to that statement, as given by the llioniteur, was most com-
plete, and showed that the Emperor had made no assertion
of the kind. What the Emperor siated was that he should
request—not that he had requested—Baron Gros Lose sound
her Majesty's Government. With regard to the cond
statement, the bon. member for Sunderland had put the
question on an entirely different issue. The statement made
the other night was that, in consequence of a breach of con-
fidence, the Emperor of the French would not make any
further proposals. But if the despatch had been sent in
February of last year which her Majesty's Government were

accused of having communicated, the whole question fell to
the ground, because the proposal was not actually made until
the month of November. That despatch of which they had
heard for the first time to-night had been communicated in
February or April; if so, how came it that the proposal
should only have been made in November of the same year?
The Aloniteur had clearly pointed out the despatch of Octo-
ber as the despatch which, by some misapprehension on the
part of the hon. and learned gentleman, had been commu-
nicated to the American Government. He had stated the
other night most unreservedly, and without equivocation,
that no such communication of any despatch whatever to
her Majesty's Government had been made to the Govern-
ment of the United States, either in the early or latter part
of the year. He now distinctly reasserted that. He had
gone through every despatch himself ; the chief clerk in
the department, and another clerk, had done the same ;
so that there had been three minute searches from the be-
ginning of 1862 up to the present time; and he declared
upon hie honour that no trace of any such despatch could
be found in the Foreign-office. (Hear.) There must have
been, therefore, some misapprehension on the part of the
hon. and learned gentleman. [Mr. Roebuck—Not the
least.] (Laughter.) Ho would remind the hon. member
for Sunderland that he had fallen into a similar mistake
last year ; and it was the more surprising that he had not
taken warning from what had then occurred. In April
last year the hon, member came to this country with a con-
fidential communication; but he had scarcely arrived when
a telegraphic message was received stating that the hon.
member was not authorised to make that communication.
(Laughter.) What he (Mr. Layard) stated was no secret;
the whole mistake arose from the hon. member having as-
sumed the character of a special envoy.
Mr. AYRTON suggested that, unless they had a dis-
tinct intimation from the hon. and learned member for
Sheffield that he would proceed with the debate on Mon-
day, it would be for the convenience of the house to put
the adjourned debate down as the last order.
Viscount PALMERSTON proposed, in fulfilment of the
pledge given to the hon. and learned gentleman, to put
down the debate as the first order. But if the hon. and
learned gentleman did not proceed with it, the Government
would take the Fortifications Bill, and after that the Relief
Bill.

Mr. TAYLOR protested against the adjournment of the
debate, and against such a violation of international law as
that proposed by the hon. and learned member for Sheffield
in favour of the recognition of a state founded on slavery.
The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn,
POLAND.

Mr. BEAUMONT inquired when the hon. member for
King's County intended to proceed with his motion on
Poland.
Mr. HENNESSY said he wished the discussion should
take place as early as possible, and he hoped the noble lord
would give him Thursday for the purpose.
Viscount PALMERSTON said he was desirous of pro-
ceeding with supply on Thursday; but he would give the
hon. member Monday week.
Mr. HORSMAN hoped the noble lord would reconsider
his decision, and allow the discussion to be taken on Thurs-
day.
After a few words from Sir G. Grey, Mr. Sclater-Booth,
and Mr. Collins, who suggested that a series of morning
sittings should be given to the discussion of Poland,
Mr. HENNESSY expressed his surprise, after the
pledge given by the noble lord on a former occasion, that he
should now object to give Thursday for the discussion of
the Polish question. The right hon. member for Stroud
had a motion on the paper on the same subject, and he
trusted the right hon. gentleman would inaugurate the dis-
cussion.

Mr. HORSMAN said he had not put his notice on the
paper with any intention of interfering with the hon. mem-
ber for King's County ; but, believing that it was extremely
important to have a discussion on Poland, he should on
every motion for supply endeavour to raise the discussion,
unless the Government gave up Thursday for the purpose.
Lord PALMERSTON said the hon. member for King's
County accused him of a breach of faith. He denied the
accusation. He had promised to give the hon. member a
Government night, and he now offered him Monday night
week, which was a Government night.
The matter then dropped.
VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
Mr. FITZWILLIAM moved for copies of any corres-
pondence between Mr. Langford and the Colonial depart-
ment. relative to alleged abuses in the Government of Van-
couver's Island ; and between the Colonial Government and
Governor Douglas, referring to Mr. Langford's changes ;
and with the Government of Vancouver's Island relative to
the appointment of Chief Justice Cameron, and the remon-
strances against such appointment ; and of any petition re-
cently received from Vancouver's Island praying for the
redress of grievances.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE was willing to grant the papers if
the words ''or extracts" were inserted in the motion. He
would propose an amendment to that effect.
After a few words from Mr. render, Mr. Malins, and Mr.
Wyld,

Lord PALMERSTON hoped the hon. member would
assent to the insertion of these words. It was the regular
way in which motions for correspondence wherein there
might be mixed up personal details were framed.
Mr. FITZ WILLIAM assented,
The amendment and motion were then withdrawn, on
the underbtanding that the papers would be granted as an
'opposed return.
THE BOARD OF WORKS.

, Sir S. 11I.PETO, in calling attention to the want of
efficient control ef the public works of the country, and
the necessity of reor:anising the Board of Works, with a
• view to remedying the said there were 120 buildings
in England and 24 in Scotlant..4, 17 parks, 10 post-offices,
31 probate registries, and £28,,q00 a year for several
offices rented, which paid their owne,.q frwln 5 to 7 per
cent., under the care of the First Coromissioi2er, who ought
I therefore to be called the First Commissioner 'if Parks,
Palaces, and Public Offices, And yet the real public N7erkB
of the country were conducted by the departments wit:2
which they were severally connected. For instance, the
Admiralty took charge of the harbours throughout this
country. Now in France, if a dock was to be made, it was
referred to the Minister of Public Works, who was guided
by the navy department and other officials in drawing up
the plans. To illustrate the expensive system adopted in
this country, he might say that the harbour of Keyham cost
four times the amount of its original estimate; and that
though the first estimate for Alderney harbour was only
£650,000, the construction of one pier cost £1,500,000. A
like extravagant departure from the original estimate took
place in the case of Holyhead harbour, and the story would
be repeated until the public works of the country were
placed under ono Minister, who would be responsible to
Parliament. In France, Prussia, Austria, and Italy shch
a system prevailed, and the result was that estimates were
not exceeded to any considerable extent ; that plans were
well considered before they were undertaken ; and that no
useless works were constructed, at an extravagant cost. He
desired to see a similar system adopted in this country, and
he believed that it would result both in economy and
efficiency. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. COCHEIANE expressed his conviction that
nothing would be done to improve the present system until
things became intolerable, when Parliament might inter-
fere. With regard to the public monuments, it was most
desirable that they should be put under the control of some
responsible authority, and the metropolis saved from the
absurdity of a statue without legs or arms—(laughter)—
being erected in Leicester-square.
Sir C. WOOD denied that the changes which were
made in the original plans for Alderney, Keyham, or
Holyhead harbours had been the result of want of fore,
sight or extravagance. When first projected, steamers
were very small ; but, when they assumed the proportions
which they now exhibited, the harbours in question had to
be increased in a like manner. That, and not the department
which had charge of the works, had led to the expense.
Sir F. SMITH admitted that any suggestion in regard
to public works coming from the hon. baronet the member

for Fhnsbury deserved the utmost attention, but he did not
believe that the plan of concentration as proposed would
secure either efficiency or economy. lie advised them not

to attempt to cents aline too much, or they would get into a
difficulty, for they would get men overcharged with work
they could not superintend, and men would be placed to
conduct works they could not accomplish.

Sir J. TRELAWNY supported a more efficient control
over public works.
Col, FRENCH referred to the state of Holyhead harbour.
Mr. COWPER defended the present conduct of public
works in this country, and contrasted our system with that
adopted in France. He urged that our system was the pre-
ferable for this country. He thought it was impossible to
separate the political from the permanent duties of the
First Commissioner of Works. The effect of the separation
would be to place the political part in the hands of a head
of department who would have neither the time nor the
leisure to make himself so conversant with the details of
the office as was required from a Parliamentary head who
was responsible to Parliament for his own department. It
was a mistake to suppose that the estimates were never ex-
ceeded under the French system ; on the contrary, it was
of very frequent occurrence, and must always be so where
plans were altered. Latterly we had consulted competent
judges for designs for public buildings, instead of ieaving
it entirely to the First Commissioner of Works, and he in-
stanced the National Gallery, the Houses of Parliament,
and the proposed new Foreign Office, which he thought
was a very near approach to the suggestion of
the hon. member who had brought forward this subject.
The right hon. gentleman referred to the impossibility of
forming a suitable council of architects to co-operate with
his department, on account of ihe two great schools into
which the profession was divided, viz , the Gothic and the
classic. He deprecated the superficial criticism to which the I

office had been subjected, and showed that none of the great
failures which had been pointed at had occurred since he

came into power. He had no control whatever over Leices-

ter-square, otherwise the statue in the centre would have

been long since repaired ; and it was equally true that— he
was in no way responsible for what occurred in St. Paul's.
As for the fountains in Trafalgar-square, the fault lay in
their original construction ; but he had done much to im-
prove them.

Mr. LINDSAY referred to Alderney harbour, and as-
serted that, notwithstanding the enormous sums expended

there, it was worthless as a harbour of refuge, and question.
able for the purposes of defence.
The subject then dropped.
THE ATTACK UPON TRINGANU.

Sir J. HAY rose to direct attention to the attack upon
Tringanu, the capital of the southern province of the king-
dom of Siam, which took place on the 12th November last,
and to move for papers. The hon. and gallant officer stated
the particulars of the outrage of which he complained, which
were shortly these : It appeared that the younger brother of
the King of Siam, whose pretensions had been favoured by
the Dutch, had taken refuge in Tringanu with the Rajah,
his uncle ; and it having been supposed that the ex-Sultan
of Lingga was concerned in a conspiracy against his brother,
and in injuring the trade between the district of Benang and
Singapore, the merchants of the latter place petitioned the
governor, Col. Kavanagh, to demand the surrender of the
ex-Sultan from the Rajah of Tringanu. Major Macpherson
was deputed to negotiate with the Rajah for the purpose.
Capt. Corbett and an English squadron were also despatched
to Tringanu. This seemed to be the usual way of proceed-
ing in the East to unite a political officer with a military or
naval one ; the former would be sure to quarrel, and, as a
matter of course, the latter would be sure to fight. Well,
Major Macpherson waited upon the Rajah, and demanded
the surrender of his nephew. The uncle asked Major Mac-
pherson whether England, at the bidding of another Power,
would give up a political refugee—whereupon Major Mac-
pherson returned to the squadron, reported that his diplo-
matic endeavours were at an end, and directed Captain
Corbett to bombard Tringanu. It was due to Captain Cor-
bett to say that he was desirous of doing the smallest pos-
sible injury to the town; but, owing to the unsteady post•
tion of the vessels, a portion of the town was set on fire by
the shells. He could only say that this outrage was dis-
graceful to the arms of England, and he hoped the right
hon, gentleman would lay copies of all the papers on the
table.

Sir C. WOOD said he could not complain of the hon. and
gallant gentleman for bringing forward this subject ; at the
same time he was in difficulty on account of not having re
ceived from the Government of India an official statement
of the transactions complained of; and it would be hardly
just towards the officers implicated to pronounce an opinion
upon their conduct until all the facts were in his possession.
The origin of the interference of the Governor of Singapore
arose in this way :—There was a southern district called
Benang which was friendly to the English Government,
and between it and Singapore a considerable trade was car-
ried on. The ex-Sultan of Lingga, who had placed himself
under the protection of his uncle, the Rajah of Tringanu,
having been charged with getting up plots against his
brother, and destroying the trade between Benang and
Singapore, Col. Kavanagh at the request of the merchants
of Singapore, directed Major Macpherson to obtain redress,
and the result was the bombardment of Tringanu. He
would give the hon. and gallant officer a list of the papers;
and if he thought they were of importance, they would be
produced.

After a faw words from Mr. LIDDELL and Lord NAAS,
in condemnation of our present policy in the East, the sub.

ject dropped.