The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-10 00:00:00

-7, 7,

itanetpation. To tne.Duke of Wellington, in particular,
the Iri.h were indebted; for that great measure ; he merited
,lllstggatltinle. ofall ; sod sincerely did he (Mr. O'Gorman
regret drat -,the had not a,!opted such
; 'Measures as would have given an opportunity to hint and
those who thought with him, of rallying round his GraCe,
and give ion his euppott, . After some further observa.
Ittu!lioeen,;lo,..4oO. Member said, I am an Irishman ;
and I will make the English tear me..•••••
(llerr., tear, end laihter;) I myself have been an old
stipat/4r.; j knoW 'what has been done; I know
Whit Would have been Sine, had not Catholic relief
torn granted.—(llear.) Many a time have I sat outside
that bar like a degraded slave. But the Duke of 'Welling-
ton Came into his Majesty's Councils, sod thereby saved the
Lerlles4,2o,lit n ghs) Hon. Members may laugh, but it
ave 'yet addressed the -House. I am
.110 berriater—no lawyer-.--(Laughter)--hut
Plalp lien sent into Parliament by a great county,
to a plain, unvarnished tale. I will ask, had not
Citholic emancipation :been granted, considering the
resent state of Prince and Belgium, what would
AIM beep the situation, of Irelaod ?—(Hear, bear.)—
She wduli have exacted from'England what 'she has now
to thank her Tor as a boon.—(Hear, hear.)—lf England
lad denied what she'bas now granted, a party would have
ring -Up itelriland which no-Power could have over-
mvit% Afr. O'Gorman Mabon then alluded to the cir-
Climiterrecof his having gone down to Oxford, to witness
the election of Sir Robert Peel, and stated that he enter-
tained i'verY mean idea of the Christian charity of the
men who crowded the streets, for their opposition
to the Right Honourable Gentleman. The Government,
however, of which Sir R. Peel :formed a part is now
"solved. I hope, therefore, continued Air. O'Gorman
Mahon, it will no longer be said that I am a tool of the
Treasury Bench.—(Hear.) I am not, 1 sever was a
Plwolunter, but was-always -as independent of the
TraluktrY, Ini!the Treasury was independent of me. I again
Hilt, that I would not have noticed the attacks of an
Snonymous pamphleteer, but when I find a Member of
dtie Houis-,-(with great warmth)—l-4—l—l cannot use
tut unparliamentary phrase, although it is uppermost in
ItlYttature.•;-(Great laughter.) Whin I find a Member
'4.514 House, vilifying 'me, I feel called upon thus.
PIM* to dare him to -mow forward. A great.deal had been
kid about his not having voted in the division on the Civil
The' fait !woo,' 'happened. to be excluded et'
"ut dine of the division. He: was in the House until
kilt" o'clock, and sat between the Honourable Mern-;
sun' for Weittninster • and Middlesex. He inquired of
latter. how long' the debate was-likely to- last, who
inswered—several hours ; cobsequenttr be retired from
the 'House, bait returned in forty minutes, and then found
himself excluded. Hi was glad, however, that he
441: not vote with the majority on that question, for
this reason, that he should have been sorry that
his • first political vote in that House should leave
ken in support of a measure that had proved fatal
lo an Administration which'had done so much good to the
tountey.—(llear, hear, hear, .and cheers.) He again
tilled on the Member who had calumniated him to come
row, ard. In justice to the Hon. Member for Waterford,
se would say it was not him..
1111 r. ELLICE moved that a new writ be issued for the
Hugh of Newport, in the room of Mr. Doherty, who
had accepted' the Chiltern Hundreds.—Agreed to.

GRAND. JURIES (IRELAND).
Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose for the purpose of calling
the attention of the House to the evil constitution of
Grand Juries in Ireland, with reference chiefly, es'we
un-
derstood, to the pawer.of taxation possessed by those bo-
dies. Long observation of the laws relating to Grand
Juries, and the practices or those bodies, led him to the
conclusion that the taxes which they imposed ought rather
t° he paid by the proprietors of land than by the occupiers.
,
• thought that the powers possessed by Grand Juries
were already too large, and were poculiarlY liable to abuses.
Ile hail, however, every reason to believe and hope, that
with a Goveininent like the present, they might expect
such ameliorations of the system as might render it more
Mineable, it not to discover some complete and perma-
nent remedy. The Right Hoe. Gentleman concluded by
Proposing a series of resolutions tending to show the mis-
chief' that arose from the Grand Jury system in Ireland.
Mr. AL FITZGERALD said, according to the state-
tent of the Right Hon. Gentleman, enough was already
!""iled to show the neeeesity of amending the Grand
74'1 Pyltem. To show its absurdity as it at present stood,
't Was enough to state that. it was in evidence the time
!Potted to each presentment on the average did pot exceed
trice minute". under such circumstance', it was impossible
rthe GRec:tl Jury, even though actuated by a spirit of
ocgrity, to exercise' a just discretion and a sound judg-
tient. But the greatest complaint against the present
"t rent wastthe power of taxation. it gave to the members
ligh it was
Jury. To put the point in its strongest
t► was possible fur a Whole ,eotinty to be taxed by
let of men who were not possessed of 'one single acre
14 it, and who consequently would not have to pay any
Petition of the tax they levied. But beside the manner in
!Melt the funds were raised; another grand objection was,
that when raised, they were either misapplied, or applied
• the principle of non-employment, which was one
aril to the country. The principle that ought to be
tete4 upon was the ready-money principle ; but, on the
'l4lriry. , one of the misfortunes of Ireland was, that hu-
man labour there war conducted on a system of credit,
'44 this
,alone, in a great degree, was sufficient to ac-
count for"all the misery that was seen there. 'What he
tiullteaded was, that it was not only the interest of Ireland,
but of this.country also, to see these things rectified, for
't was owlPg, to matters going wrong in Ireland that there
Wee such an influx of labourers into England—a system
tl►lt
MU Wrong for Ireland and injurious for England.
Ile had not yet touched on one 'of the greatest evils of Ire-
„;lui-ttli evil that had ledthat countrt into many of its
Item"; but before lie sat down he would allude to it in
I* 'PHI- He was now speaking of absenteeism ;
1-kw'thout wishing to say any thing harsh or unkind
I,"°4e who quitted the country from which they drew.
fete revenues, he must say,. that at their door lay witn.h
the misery of Ireland. With respect to the question of
ette Laws, he would say, that so far from thinking that
°Y Would lessen the evil, be thought that they would
neatly aggravate it. The consequence of Poor Laws in
Lit country would be, to increase the influx of Irish la-
m°4rerr into this.
Sir JOHN WALSH declared that the present system
Grand 'Juries was very bad, and wanted to be totally
revtd, or a new system must be introduced.
JAMES GRA.T TAN must say that if they abolish
wand Juries, they must transfer their duties to some
I it'ey bodies. The great object to he aimed at for Ireland
to give the gentlemen of Ireland an interest in the
°Net-tient of the country. His Hight Hon. Friend, he
t,'"l. averse from absenteeship, anti like
tncrrare 'udeti that absentees were great evils; but his planswould
absenteeehip.
Al;hiss FITZGERALD explained.
eh, ROBERT • 1,7 °BERT PEEL objected to the 'course adopted
Ins Right Hon. Baronet. The object of the Resolu-
tel
was to declare that the lessee should not pay the
which should be aid by the lessor. He wished the Wtse °! Commons to declare that the occupier ought not
pa'gist the essessmenti but surely the interval between
rP" of Commons making that declaration and pus-
h, ."111 to impose the payment on the other class should
,ttotte short as possible. When the Right Hon. Baronet
Ito the uthered the agitated state of Ireland, he would himself
.
hitt., pi ()pinny- of not coodemning one system by a row-
km° of that House before the Legislature were pre-
-4.7, to establish another. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Ile ;I.lgeteld) knew that lie did not agree to all his views.
r;4-."Jected to establishiag any Board, whether Losrd'
:eminent or nut, to regulate local taxation. l
hou should, he thought,' be regulated by local such°.
ke '4, and he preferred'siteh to any board. The object,
:Imught, should be to establish a local authority, but
kerlift that authority. under certain 'restrictions, and sub-
the Its acts to recision. Certainly lie objected strongly to
kviwilliretent plan of allowing one.individual to name all the
I.„ueri of these little parliaments, as the Grand Jude"
ii, carted. All the objections to Select Vestries applied
• Brest force to a bodrof twenty-three persons, selected
L..t,4l,o_individual. He wanted to see the people of Ire-.
an interest in such institutions themselves, and
:114),1' It them, with certain cheeks, as institutions for
expenditure were, established in England. He did
t„!'llt to see that body very numerous-,-it might nearly
Tis.uli the number of an English Grand Jury. He
pt t le.next to repeal the judicial power from the power
• ,
. taxes. If twenty-three gentlemen asserted that
ft,) yin ef
necessary, or if they, as the taxing body, should
I,o2,lflections to any tax proposed, lie should not be the-
ifti: to prefer the decision of any other body, particularly
Mr y were taken from the landowners, and the lindown-
h„dwere to he, as was proposed, the rate-payers. On this
44. Ye) however, there aught to he a check. It should
bha the absolute power to levy taxes for useful works, but
en **nuance against any job, two means might he
ever that the money was expended Koperly.. He
g a vote to some board on any project involving a
ikal 0.4 pe nee- - fetch as several thousand pounds, and he would
k*lnhor the work to he done except by public contract.
vLewt na
other body so likely us this to determine cur-
tt the worms were useful. Then there ought to be,
°, of the public authorit a power to compel the
11:-(4,:l.j,.710 to give an treoulit authority,
the money e.xpende.d.
" t see it. the Clifie any objection to gm such

id he did

it know wli

powerito the Government ;am ue did not :now ~..,y the
Treasurer of the county should not he called on to render
an account of the money he, was authorised to expend.
The :se were the great priuciples Mt which he would pro-
ceed. With respect to advancing money for public works
--Lthough he admitted that in particular ca.,43s that
had been advantageous.....-he could ,not give his assent
to it as a general ,system. To give 100,000/. to relieve
urgent distress might he necessary; but to .emphiy the
public funds to find employment for•the people, was likely
to stimulate population' beyond its due proportion. In
conclusion the Right Hon. Gentleman expressed a hope
that he would net be considered as at all tending to under-
value the• exertions of the Right lion. Baronet, or lessen
the importance of the object he bad in view.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the views of the Right
Hon. Baronet who had just sat down deserved attention.
Every person admitted that the present system was mon-
strous. lie had never beard any gentleman defend it but
lion. Member for Wicklow. The principle was bad. It
WAS taxation without representation, and those who levied
the taxes were not the payers. In many instances
the Grand Jury had no concern with the law. He had
known a case where taxation to the amount of several
thousand pounds Was levied by a Grand Jury, five of whom
had been discharged under the Insolvent Debtors' Act.
Was it not a shame that ninety acres should pay as much,
as had been stated by a Right lion. Gentleman, as 1,000
acres of equally good land ? Great praise was frequently
bestowed on the Parliament for its attention to Irish mat-
ters, but here was an ahem existing for thirty years with-
out any remedy. Was Ireland to•be grateful for that?
He did not think she ought to be, unless her gratitude
was political gratitude, which bad been defined as a
lively sense of .future favours. He admitted the propriety
of having local authorities, but those who assessed the
taxes should be the tax payers. Ireland was .divided iota
baronies, end the plan he should recommend would be
this :—He would have each barony select two men when
any public works were necessary, who should make
a presentment for them to the assistant barrister, and
he would give to these two methand the assistant barrister
the power of settling the maximum of the assessment.
Their presentment should go before the Grand Jury, who
should •have no power to enlarge it; but, if they disap-
proved of it they might •diminish it. The Grand Juty
should then have the power to order the works to be m-
ooted, but by 1110 other means than by contracts publicly
announced and publicly formed, and the contractors should
be obliged to pay their labourers is money. This would
be a constitutional means of improving the system. He
was happy to hear the Right lion. Baronet's good wishes
to-night, but he would rather hive bad some good deeds
from him before he went out of (dee.

Lord ALTHORP agreed with all the gentlemen who
had spoken as to the great importance of this subject, and
admitted that it was necessary that the Governmentshould
turn its attention -to the matter. The Right Hon. BA.
toilet who had introduced the subject confitied himself to
the evils of the Grand Jury system, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who spoke subsequently (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) had
discussed all the peculiarities in the condition of Ireland.
He meant to confine himself to the subject before the
House, and he would say that the Government. would be
very happy to receive the plan which the Right Hon. Gen-
Oman said lie had formed for the improvement of that
system. It was admitted that the evils of the
system were great, and they were principally caused by
the fact that the rates were imposed by persons who
had none of them to pay. That was not what
ought to be. It was contrary to sound principles, and
open to many objections. He did not, however, think
the plan recommended by the Hon. and Learned Member
for Waterford would answer the object proposed. It
Would be very complicated, and be exposed to many diffi-
culties. In England the parish roads were indeed kept in
repair by each parish, but each parish was liable to be in-
dicted if the roads were not kept in good order. In Ire-
land, he believed, the great difficulty was to find fit and
proper persons to execute any local system, and constitute
local bodies. There was no difficulty of that kind in Eng-
land, where the people had long been accustomed to ma-
nage their own affairs. He would not pledge himself to
any decided course, nor give a decided opinion what ought
to be done. Ile believed, however, that his Right Hon.
Friend, the Chief Secretary for Ireland, had a Bill pre-
pared to improve the Grand Jury system, and the G -
vernment hoped that it might be carried into effect with
great advantage.
Mr. G. DAWSON admitted that the principles of the
system were bad, but he denied that the Grand Jurors who
carried it into execution were corrupt. The materials
were good, but the plan was bad. Landlords ought to
have the power of levying these taxes, and that system
would be no improvement which took their power from
them. It was proper to keep up their connection with the
county, and their interest wasdeeply concerned in the pro-
per administration of the county funds. Under the pre-
sent arrangeMent of the 'business transacted before the
Grand Juries, it was impossible for them to devote more
than two minutes to the consideration of each present.
!tient, .and it .therefore followed, as a matter of course,
that great laxity and many abuses crept into the admini.
oration of the county rates. In his opinion much of the
difficulty at present experienced by the Magistrates, and
many of the abuses of the system, might be got rid of by
appointing a number of Magistrates in each county to as-
semble twice a year, ,for the transaction of no other kind
of business than that connected with presentments, and
the application of the rates collected for public purposes.
This would, he was satisfied, be productive of the best
effects ; for he would not agree with those who thought
the Irish counties were wantonly and extravagantly rated
for county purposes. In point of fart, a much larger sum
was collected in the English counties, under the name of
County Rates, than the whole of the stuns said to be to
illegally taken in Ireland. By a Return made a short
time ago to that House, it appeared that the County Rates
of England amounted to something considerably over two
millions, and yet the system which prevailed in England
was that which it was wished they would .extend to Ire-
land. The Right Ilon. Gentleman concluded by pro-
testing against the plan of the Knight of Kerry, for placing
the funds of the counties under the controul of Commis-
sioners.

Mr. WYSE was opposed to the system of the Member
for Kerry as Much as to the suggestions of the Member fur
Waterford (Mr. O'Connell). He thought the better plan
would be to divide the powers of the Grand Juries♦ into
two parts, and leaving, to the Magistrates the judicial
power which they at present exercised, and permit the
rate-payers to elect from the whole body a certain number,
to whom they, would be willing to' commit the adminis-
tration of the county funds. While on this subject, he
would say, that he approved of the system, of loans which
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R., Peel) had condemned.
In consequence of the *ligation of his Majesty's Govern-
ment, that they were determined to take the subject under
consideration, he abstained from troubling the House with
any further observations; but he would take leave to say,
in conclusion, that be was happy to find they had an Ad-
ministration disposed to turn its attention to the condi-
tion of Ireland, and he hoped the people of that country,
when they heard that Parliament was in reality and good
earnest occupied with those questions in which they had
an interest, would feel that the day of retribution which
they wished for was come, not in wrong anti in bloodshed,
but that it had brought forth an earnest desire to promote
their welfare as a division of the empire, and to develope,
to its utmost extent, their almost unbounded national re-
sources.—(Hear.)
Mr. OWEN O'CONNOR felt gratifiCation to find
they had a Government willing to lend their attention to
the complaints of the people of Ireland.
Mr. OTRIEN was of opinion that the plan recom-
mended by the' Knight of Kerry would, on inquiry, be
found the fittest for the proper uianagement of the county
rates, and the best calculated to get rid of the evils of the
present system.
Mr. RICE suggested,to his Right Hon. Friend the
propriety of withdrawing the resolutions, as the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had deetared it to be the inten-
tion of Government to take the subject under its lame=
diate care.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT had not entertained a hops
the resolutions would beearried; but he was satisfied with
the attention bestowed on them, and withdrew the resolu-
tions accordingly.
THE LIVING OF STANHOPE.
Mr. OWEN WYNNE, before the Noble Viscount (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) proceeded to move for the
Committee on public salaries, begged leave to ask him a
question on a subject in which he believed the public
took a peculiar and extraordinary interest. He wished
to know if Ministers persisted in the determination of
their predecessors, to permit the living of Stanhope to be
held by Dr. Phillpotts, in cotnmendarti with the See of
Exeter?
Lord ALTHORP, in reply to the Hon. Member's ques-
tion, said that his Majesty's Ministers, upon finding a
great objection prevailing throughout the country on the
subject of such an union, had felt it their duty to advise
his Majesty to abstain (rum issuing the instrument required
for that purpose:--(Hear, hear.)
SALARIES OF PUBLIC OFFICERS.
Lord Viscount ALTHORP then rose to move fur the.
Select Committee to inquire into the Salaries of offices
held during the pleasure of the Crown, of which l►e had
given notice. He said it was the firm determination of
his Majesty's Government to enforce the must rigid eco-

• • r. •
. .
Homy, effect a thorough 'retrenchment in every
departmentandto
ot' the State; but in order to leave them the
power. to enforce this economy :and ,retrenchment with
a proper effect, and in order to enable them to
call on others to make sacrifice., his Majesty's Go-
vernment felt it their duty to begin' by making sacri-
fices themselves.--(Hear, hear, hear, . hear.) Under
ordinary circumstances, it was undnottedly better that the
Government should take on themselves the responsibility of
proposing to Parliament those "reductions and alterations
which they,thought expedient; witheut throwing the labour
of the research on a Committee of the House ; but they
conceived that they were less competent to come to a con-
clusion with respect to the amount of their own salaries
than they might be with reference to those of others. They
thought, therefore, that the more satisfactory course would
he, to leave the question of the amount of their own 'Lu-
rie* to an independent Committee of this House ; and I
hope that the Committee which J mean to propose will be
((mild to be as independent of the Government as any
Committee can be constituted" in this House.—(Hear,
hear.) I tun well aware of the necessity of satisfying
the country, that it is the sincere and lione4 intention
of the Government to carry the reductions in all the
public establishments to the utmost extent which may
be found consistent with a due regard to the public
service.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Looking, however, at
reductions of this kind, I think it necessary to say
that they may lw, perhaps, carried to much too great an
extent. (Hear, hear.)—l think it would, indeed, he ex-
`ceedingly unwise and impolitic that we should reduce the
salaries so low as to leave no office capable of being held,
unless by a man possessing a large private fortune.—
(Hear, bear.)—That is, I think, a principle which the
most ardent lover of economy would not wish to see
carried into effect.—(Hear, hear.)—But the principle of
economy they were determined to carry into effect was
this, that wherever the mere patronage of the Govern-
ment was concerned, there should be no limit to the re-
ductions, bet where the wants of the public service re-
quired efficient officers, then their economy should be only
a secondary consideration, carried as far as it can be in ac•
cordance with the principles of the Government, but never
permitted to interfere with that which they conceived to
be demanded for the proper conduct of public business.—
(Hear, hear.)—Thinking, then, that the whole question
can he most favourably brought under the consideration of
a Committee, and believing as I do that no objection
will be offered to such a motion, because I think it
will be admitted that it is called for by the unanimous
voice of the country, I feel it my duty, at the same time,
to warn those who are looking with anxiety to their
effect, that they must not expect any extensive relief
from any thing which can be taken from the salaries of
the Government officers. Much as such a measure may
be desired by the advocates for economy, I think it right
to say that it will produce but a very small diminution in
the amount of the taxation with which they are bur-
thened; but small as may be the relief, it will produce that
which is of much more importance in the present state of
the public mind ; it will give satisfaction to the people—
(Hear, bear)—and convince them that economy is with
the present Government no idle, profession; but that they
are determined to make the necessary retrenchment of
sependiture, and display the sincerity of their intentions
Ity beginning with their own emoluments.—(Hear, hear.)
Having said so muck respecting the public opinion, the
objects of the Government, and the mode in which it pro-
pane to carry those cbjects into effect, I would now add
that the same reasons which have prevented us from com-
ing to any decision with respect to the amount of salary
which we conceive necessary for the support of our offices,
have induced us to refrain from naming any person as a
Member of the Committee who may be supposed to be in the
slightest degree under the influence of the Government. In
the nomination of the Committee I have indeed felt it right
to adopt as a precedent the course pursued by my Noble
Friend, Lord Lansdowne, in the year 1806, who, in ap-
pointing a Committee to inquire into the state of the Fi-
nances, selected no Member who held an office of any de-
scription under the Administration.--(Hear.) I believe,
however, it will be necessary, as a matter of form, that
my own name should be placed on the list; hut I trust
that the reasons and objections I have stated will, with
the Committee ioself, form an excuse for my non-attend-
ance.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Viscount concluded
by moving the appointment of a " Select Committee, to
inquire what Reductions can be made in the Salaries and
Emoluments of Office held during the Pleasure of the
Crown by Members of either House of Parliament, and
to report their Opinion and Observations thereupon to the
House."

Mr. BANKES thought the Government might, perhaps,
have adopted a better course, if they had clothe down with
a proposition of their own for the reduction of their
salaries, rather than have, thrown on a Committee the
ungracious task of determiniug what should be the amount.
He did not, however, rise at that moment to apply him-
self to the
.question; but to ask the Noble Lord (Althorp)
if there was any foundation for. the report of the intended
removal of Sir A. Hart from the Lord Chancellorship of
Ireland ?—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said he felt bound, in the first place,
to apologise to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Dawson) for nut possessing the requisite information to
answer a question on the same subject, which he put to
him., on a former evening. The truth was, that be had
just returned from his election, and had not an opportu-
nity of communicating with the Members of the Govern-
ment until he took his place in the House. In answer to
the question of the Hon. Member foi Dursetthire, he haul
now to state, the Government felt it required an intimate
and confidential assistant in the Government of Ireland in
the person of the Lord Chancellor, and they had, there-
fere, determined on making a change in that office; but
they had taken such steps, and made such arrangements
with respect to the removal of Sir A. Hart, that no real
increase of the burthens of the people would be the con-
sequence.
Mr. BANKES, in reply to this declaration, said he
felt himself bound at once to stigmatise this proceeding of
the Government as a job of the most obnoxious kind....
(Hear, hear)—and as a job of an Administration which set
out with such loud professiuns, and which placed its
claims to public support on its principles of economy. He
must say, that it excited his wonder and surprise, not un-
mixed with a feeling of deep regret.—(Hear, hear.)—lle
bad hopes that the Adtniuistration would have attempted
to justify the expectations of economy which were so uni-
iersally entertained; but the avowal of this job taught
him that his hopes were vain. Perhaps he had said too
much-.more. than he-ought--until he heard the explana-
tion that was promised ; and he should, therefore, merely
add, that he waited for it with impatience.
Mr. DAWSON said, that as this subject had excited a
very general interest in England us well as in Ireland, he
hoped the Noble Lord would excuse his putting to him
' another question connected with the rumour of another
removal. Sir Anthony Hart, the present Lord Chancel-
' lor, made no objection, as far as he understood, to continue
to hold his place; and he believed it was admitted by the
Bar and the country, that no man was better qualified to
perform its duties with honour to himself and advantage
to the suitors. It should also be recollected, that Sir A.
Hart was sent to Ireland purely and solely because he was
not connected with any of its political parties, and because
he was not disposed to meddle with any of the contending
faCtions of the time—but they now heard, and he confessed
he heard it with pain, that the Chancellor was to be re-
placed by a political substitute, whose inclination it was
and from whom it required as a duty, that he should meddle
with parties, and renew that hatred and dissatisfaction
which had for some time been so happily repressed.--
(Hear.) This was not all, however ; be understood that
it was also contemplated to give a retiring allowance to the
Chief Baron, in order that he might be replaced by some,
other political friend. of the Government, although that
Judge was as competent as any other in Ireland for the
fulfilment of, his duties, and no adequate reason could be
advanced to justify his retirement.._.(Hear.) The conse-
quence of all this would be to saddle the country with
two retiring pensions in order that the Government
might place two political supporters in the place of the
Lord Chancellor and Chief Baron in Ireland. He
(Mr. Dawson) would not complain of this in ordinary
cases, but when he was told that retrenchment was the
one sole object of the Government, and when he found
they ranted their claim to public confidence, and their
reputation as a Government, on the fulfillment of their
pledges of economy; and when he found that one of their
first acts was to displace two eminent Judges, who would
he entitled to demand large retiring pensions from the
public, lie confessed he could not avoid expressing his sur-
prise and apprehension. Now one word more, as to the
apology of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord said that he
was nut aware of the intention of the Government until
alter he took his seat in the House. But were there no
means of rending a letter to the Noble Lord, acquainting
him with the wishes of the Premier, before the measure
was determined? If there was not, what became of the
responsibility of the Noble Lord as Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer? Was the Prime Minister to make arrangements
so materially affecting the finances of the country without
consulting the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was
responsible, by virtue of his office, for the expenditure of
the puhlic money, and the fulfillment of the pledges of
retrenchment? The-whole matter might be capable of
explanation, but in' the present extraordinary appearance
which it maimed, he could not give it his approval.
Lord ALTHORP, in reply to the last observation of

the Right Hon. Gentleman, said that the Chief Baron
had already bean twenty-five years on the Bench, and bad
expressed a strong wish to retire.—(Hear, bear.)—He
begged also to pay, in anse.,[‘r ' he Right lion. Gentle-
man's charge of the wish of the Government to appoint
political partisan., that the persons appointed to these
situations were no political friends of the present Atnini•
stration, but, on the contrary, men appointed by an Ad-
ministration with which they bad nothing whatever to do.
—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The Government, therefore, bad
no personal motive to do wrong; and it would be found,
on examination, that they had promoted, in all cases, men
never politically connected with them us a party. There
might be an exception with respect to the Lord Chancel-
lor. The Right Hon. Gentleman says that the Lord
Chancellor should not be connected with the opinions of
the Government. Now up to the time of the appoint-
ment of Sir A. Hart, the Chancellor had always been
a political associate. It was necessary that he should
he in constant communication with the Lord Lieute-
nant, to whom was entrusted the Executive Go-
verntnent of Ireland ; and if he was not a person
who could hold a confidential communication on the
views of the Government in England, he could not effi-
ciently perform the duties of his station. The appoint-
ment of Sir A. Hart was considered politic at a peculiar
crisis, and because it was wiehtd to avoid some difficulties
connected with the Catholic question; but if the Chan-
cellor was not, its ordinary circumstances, the complete
and confidential depositary of the views of the Administra-
tion, the difficulties attending the situation of the Govern-
ment would be increased to such a degree as to be almost
ineurmounteble.—(Hear.) . .

Mr. HOLME SUMNER observed, that as it was un.
derstood that the Committee on the Civil List were not to
proceed until after the holidays, it was evident that his
Majesty's Ministers bad determined very manfully, in his
opinion, to take upon themselves the responsibility of pro.
posing a plan on that subject. He regretted, howeter,
that on the subject now before the House they had shown
a disposition to withdraw from a similar responsibility, by
proposing the appointment of a Committee to consider it;
and that on the plea that they were not competent or
proper judges. lie very readily allowed that the Members
of whom the Committee was to consist would probably be
free from Government influence; but if a Committee was
considered to be the best course in this instance, why not
refer the Civil List to a similar Committee, to proceed im-.
mediately to the discharge of their functions?—Why adopt,
two courses?

Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought that the objections
which had been urged against the course which his Ma-
jesty's Ministers were taking on the present occasion were
conceived in the most ungenerous spirit possible. If they
had referred the subject to a Committee composed of Mem-
bers who were their favourites, and who were under their
influence, no man would have been more prompt, and
more properly prompt, to object to that proceeding than
the Hon. Members who hail objected to the present pro-
ceeding. For his part, be conceived the course which it
was now proposed to pursue calculated to be eminently
beneficial to the public ; for, if be understood the Noble
Lard rightly, as soon as the Committee which had been
moved for had dealt promptly and on principle with those
salaries and emoluments of offices which were held during
the pleasure of the Crown by Members of either House of
Parliament, his Majesty's Ministers would then come for-
ward and deal promptly and on a similar principle with
the other and larger chases of the salaries and emoluments
of offices. The spirit in which this proposition was con-
ceived appeared to him excellent ; and he was convinced
approbation of it would echo and re-echo throughout the
country. On one point, however, he differed from the
Noble Lord. The Noble Lord seemed to think that the
most rigid scrutiny into the amount of the official emolu-
ments in question would not be productive of any exten•
sive financial benefit to the country. Now in his (Mr.
Harvey's) opinion, it would be productive of great benefit,
not only in the amount of the benefit, bet in the influence
which the result would have in other respects. For after
having dealt with the subjects for the investigation of which
this Committee was about to be appointed, it would be ne-
cessary to approach that frightful, that hideous return of
general official salaries, the' minimum of which was 1,0001;
and, proceeding through a disgusting and repulsive scale,
the maximum of which exceeded 10,0001. When it was
considered that the gross amount of the salaries to which
he alluded exceeded half the amount of our annual expen-
diture (apart from the interest of the national debt), or, in
other word:, that it exceeded two millions, who, that was
sensible of the necessity of the utmost possible practical
economy, but must expect, from any honest and impartial
Committee to whom the subject might be referred, a sav-
ing atonce of a million? After looking over the names
of the various office holders, and the amount of the emolu-
ments which they enjoyed, any Committee would but ill
discharge their duty—would disappoint the expectations of
the country--would chill the general feeling on the sub-
ject, if they did not quickly reduce the list tome half of its
present amount. Inquiry, however, must not atop here,
There was another list of offices and salaries, scarcely less
hideous and frightful than the other, although the items
of which it was composed were smaller : this list consisted
of offices the salaries of which were from two hundred to
one thousand pounds in amount. By a rigid analysis of
this list, a very rich saving might be effected for the coon-
try. Not only would this be advantageous in a financial point
of view ; but great benefit would result in other respects,
by cutting off a pensioner, and planting on the same stem
a patriot ; by getting rid of a mats of corruption in
the House of Commons—by diminishing the number of
hungry
dependents—of eager aspirants. All this he
trusted would be effected, and that the present Govern-
ment would see that the salvation of the country,
with which their own salvation was so closely inter-
woven, depended on the strictest public economy. As
to the legal appointments in Ireland, he in one respect
agreed with the course which his Majesty's Govern-
ment had adopted on that *object. It was undoubtedly
the case at present that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland,
Ile the Loud Chancellor of England, was a political
officer, He certainly wished that the Equity Judges were
as unconnected with political metiers as the Judges in
the Courts of Common Law. That, however, was not
the case at present. Under such circumstances, it was
idle and absurd to suppose that the present Government,
whose recommendations and acts proved that they were
actuated by the purest motives, could continue any coalition
with those who did nut cordially agree with them ; could
allow any uncongenial elements to mingle with the pa-
triotism which induced them steadily to pursue the public
good, Thew must be no spies in the camp ; no Lord
Chancellor who might approach the ear of the King with
poisonous advice or insinuations. His Majesty's present
Ministers had had the leins of Government confided to
them at a time, and under circumstances, such as had
never before occurred. But, however great the difficulties
they had to surmount, they had a confiding Monarch, and
they had, or if not they might speedily have, a confiding
Parliament ; for never had any Administration in so short a
time conciliated the good feelings of the people. If, which
at present he saw no reason to doubt, they proceeded in the
course which they appeared to have chalked out for them-
selves, they should have his voice and vote. Although he
was sitting among those who might be considered hostile
to his Majesty's present Government, if that Government
did what be expected, lie should always be prepared to
obey the apostolic injunction, " Come out from among
thein."—(llear, bear, and roars of laughter.) Ile could
assure the lion. Member, who appeared to be so much
entertained by this declaration, that his meithitig was not
that which they seemed to wish to impute to him. What
he meant was, that while his Majesty's Government pur-
sued the course which, in his opinion, it was their duty
to pursue, although sitting where be did, he should feel it
his duty to support thew; and, if necessity were, to divide
with then,. That wet what he meant ; and that was all
that he meant. He trusted that he knew too well the value
of an independent vote to sacrifice it; that vote his Ma-
jesty's Ministers should continue to have front him as long
as they continued to deserve it.

_
Mr. HORACE TWISS expressed his persuasion, that
if hie Majesty's Ministers wished to have the vote of the
Hon. Member for. Colchester, they must pay a higher
public price fur it than he fancied they were at present
disposed to give. He did not rise to oppose the Noble
Lord's motion. Quite the contrary. He supported it ;
not because he admitted the validity of all the principles
maintained by the Hon. Gentleman behind bins, but be-
cause he thought the course proposed by the Noble Lord
honourable to his character, as well as consistent end *nod.
(Hear, hear, hear.) Per himself, although he believed,
that dining the last two or three sessions retrenchment had
been carried as far as under all the circumstances of the
case it could be carried, yet he always cherished the hope
that in succeeding sessions it might be carried fur-
ther.sli - Of course the process would be continually dimi-
d'
nishing the amount on which it would be practicable
to operate. Now, however, at the opening of a new
cession—at the commencement of a new Administration,
when the Noble Lord and his friends were unfettered by
any extrinsic consideration, he thought his Majesty's
Government were conferring a great benefit on the
country by proposing that this subject should un-
dergo *strict and impartial investigation. Not that he
believed that any very considerable saving could he effected
(for he agreed with the Noble Lori?' that the principal oh-
ject was to satisfy the country), but he thought it was ex-
epetlingly deairablO to diiribuse the public mind, and to
expose the monstrous exaggerations and enormous errors

Which prevailed with reference to official remuneration
and emoluments. If the Committee should be unable to
render themselves popular by recommending a saving, the
amount of which would occasion any great and permanent
benefit to the public service, they might effect a great
benefit by establishing some principle on which the remu-
neration of the great officers !of the State should be
assessed. In this respect he thought they might do a
great: public service; and with respect to any reduction
of salaries which they might prepose he trusted that they
would applytheir recommendation to such salaries as had no
correspondent labours; rather than to those which had not.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had beard, with great regret,
those Hon. Gentlemen who, before the arrangements
which had been alluded to had been completed in Ireland,
had thought proper to censure it. Be trusted that when
that arrangement was completed it would be found econo-
mical as compared with other arrangements of a similar
nature. But undoubtedly the moral and political clia-
racter of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was a considera-
tion of far greater importance than the amount of any
economy on that subject which could be effected. The
Hon. Member who had ' just spoken said that he consi-
dered the principal object which could be obtained by the
Committee which his Noble Friend proposed was to allay
the ferment in the public mind on the subject of official
emoluments, and to show that official remuneration was,
generally speaking, not more than adequate to official
service. For his own part, he thought that his Noble
Friend had taken the best course to refer the subject to
the consideration of a Committee of independent Mem-
bers; and he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who
had just spoken that there was much exaggeration
in the statements respecting official emoluments, and
that there was much which could not be subjected to re-
trenchment without a breach of national faith. But 'of
this be was quite sure, that it would not be in the power
of that Committee, or of the House, to satisfy the country,
when they refused retrenchment even on the most solid
grounds. The cause was, the manner in which the House
was at present constituted. He was persuaded, that while
there were so many Members in that House who did not
enter it by popular election, so long would suspicion attach
to the motives of the House, even when they acted most
correctly; so long would the people be prejudiced against
their acts ; so long would the country withhold its confi-
dence from them. For that reason, were it only for the
sake of keeping the public establishments at the point at
which they ought to be kept, at the point at which it was
necessary for the good and safety of the country they should
he kept ; he wished for a solid, a substantial, but at the
same time a temperate Reform.—(Hear.) He was per-
suaded that then, and not till then, It would be in the
power of any Committee of that House to allay by their
acts the ferment in the public mind with respect to the
amount of official appointments and salaries. He looked
forward with hope and confidence to the time when the
Ministry of this country tnight refer to the consideration of
!11. House, consisting of the genuine Representatives of the
people, any measure which they might think necessary for
the public service, in the full confidence that men chosen
for their integrity and their judgment, in giving their ap-
probation to such measure, would carry with them the con-
fidence of the public that they had given it on solid grounds
of public interest, and not on any considerations of a pri.
vate character.

Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS was quite of the opinion of
the Hon. Member for Colchester—that the utmost practi-
cable economy was indispensably necessary fur the safety of
the country ; and strongly recommended that some means
should be adopted for relieving the people from the distress
in which they were involved by want of employment. He
agreed with the Noble Lord, thatjthe best course was to
submit the subject to the consideration of a Committee,
and did nut agree with the Hon. Member for Guildford,
that it would have been better had Government proposed
a plan of their own. There could be no doubt that public
officer, should be competently paid for the efficient perform-
ance of public services ; but in leaving this subject to the
consideration of a Committee, he thought the Noble Lord'
had done much better than if he had originated any spon-
taneous and voluntary recommendation.
Mr. JEPHSON spoke from under the gallery, sod was
scarcely audible. We underatood the lion. Gentleman to
bay that it bad long been felt at the Bar of Ireland that the
legal appointments in that country were not the result of
superior merit ; and that the recent proceedings would
confirm that conviction.

Sir F. BURDETT would not take up the time of the
Howse on the present occasion, if he did not think that,
in the present situation of his Majesty** Ministers, he
should not be doing justice, either to them, or to himself,
if he did not explicitly declare the feelings of respect, ad-
miration, and confidence, with which he regarded the
whole body. There had never been an administration in
this country, which in so short a time, almost before they
were fixed in their places, had come forward with prin-
ciples no eatisfactot7, and nO fraught with public 'advan-
tage; and hod performed so many wets calculated to rescue
the country front the consequences of a long system of
misgovernment. As to the present motion be was at a
loss to conceive why it should be considered that it would
have been better for Ministers to have taken tip the sub-
ject themselves, rather than to refer it to a Committee of
impartial and independent Members. He perfectly agreed
with an Hon. Member that no advantage t 3 the public
would arise from any niggardly economy on this sub•
ject ; and that it was perfectly fitting that there
who devoted themselves to the public service should
be liberally rewarded. There was no economy in ab-
staining from holding out to talent exercised in the
public service advantages equal to what it might ob-
tain in other pursuits. As far as the Great Officers of
the Crown were concerned, he really could not see how,
unless perhaps in a few cases, retrenchment could be ef-
fected. The salaries of many of them were not more than
commensurate to the expenses to which they were sub-
jected. He Was at all times hostile to a miserable and
niggardly economy; because it was at once ungenerous
and. unjust. But with respect to the large class of offices
to which the .Hon. Member fur Colchester had alluded,
the case was very different. The present Administration
stood on such grounds, that to those offices they might
safely apply the principle of retrenchment justly applicable
to them. He was glad to hear the sentiments which had
been expressed by both the Noble Lords. They were am-
, titnents which challenged the public confidence ; they were
sentiments worthy of a let of men of integrity and talent,
'determined to adopt that new mode of Government, that
system of Reform, which the necessities of the country
demanded. There was ouly one circumstance in the
composition of the present Administration which he
regretted ; and that was, that it did not comprise an
Honourable Baronet, whose integrity and abilities, tad
especially whose financial knowledge pointed him out
as a man who would do honour to any Government.
--(Hear, hear, hear.).-41e congratulated the present
Ministers on their good fortune in being supported by
their Royal Master—a Monarch entitled to the loyalty of
every Englishman—loyalty to his person, as welt as to his
seat on the Throne. It was a most happy circumstance
that they bad no views but those which were directed to.
wards the public service. Under all these circumstances,
notwithstanding the difficulties by whirls the country was
surrounded, he saw no reason for despair; on the cos•
teary, he hoped that all the evils which we were now en-
during would at least be alleviated, sod still further that,
with proper attention, they might be entirely removed.
,Such being his feelings, he had thought it his duty.to ex.
'press them. He hoped that the course which his Ma
'jesty'a present Administration seemed determined to pur-
sue would be satisfactory to all parties. Iu saying this,
-however, he forgot what had been told him by a great
'diplomatist—a man of high political talent and ability;
namely, that there was one party, and a mischievous party
too, that would not easily be satisfies!, namely, :" the
party of impatience." All other parties, however, in the
country would. he was persuaded, be sitisfird.
ItIr.GOULBURN agreed perfectly with the Hon. Baronet
in the . propriety of fairly remunerating pohlio men for
their services, and of not resorting to petty economy, cal-
culated to defeat iw own object. He hoped that the mero
area which hie Majelty‘i present Government intended to
bring forward would prove as beneficial as he could not
doubt they intended them to be. When he was himself
a Member of Government, tool brought forward any
measure which lie thought advantageous to the oottouy,
he always thought it entitled to a candid construction.. In
the same meaner, although be should use due vigilance
with respect to the measures which might be brought for-
ward by the*present Government, he was ready to pot upon
those measures the most candid constructigois6.4 Hear.)
Mr. LITTLETON eulogised the candid and gentle-
manly conduct of his Right Hon. Friend who had just
spoken—conduct which the people of England would not
tail to remark anti applaud. It gave hint great pleasure
to hear the Noble Lortistate that, with the necessary ex-
ception of that evening, as end would be put to the system
of conducting the business of Government by Committee.,
under which the etfuntryshed been for the last fifteen years
suffering.; and that public meaattree would thenceforward
be brought forward on the itethority of the Crown, me,
under the responsibility of the Maiden of the Crown.,
The present Administretion were now deeply pledged. to
Iteform, tot only.in finencial, but in all ether matters. II
they were sincere it was their duty to take care that all
posts 'cotineeNll With the Government Were filled by per
eons in whose correspondent opinions' they could confide.'
The people of England would but think thole interests in•
jured by tlic !sacrifice of A few titousauds of poundal fur the

t creose of stragthaing fin Adaialatration having for ha
Oita the public good.' -
Lord VALLETORT perfectly ca cursed in she opiniolar
st) ably expressed by the lieu. 13aronet *hal Cleo. Aleinber
r Westminster.

Sie H. IL SIit:MEN; adverting to the pre;nrued sub-
stitution of Lord Plunket'for Hartiuhserved, that
the present Lord Chancellor 44 -Ireland had been -appointed
rothy- the last Admit:date/Moth butj by that noder Mr.
Canning. Such being the ease, -he could not understand
why the present Geier:mint could not. work with • hint.
Not differing from them in political sentimentss—having no
political character--never Living I..sieri in that Mom, it
did not appearsuffiCient to tell the House that Sie Anthony
Hart must resign and Lord l'ltinkett must be appoictell,
because morally, as 'there Ought to 1w a
Lord Chancellor in Irelandin when: Government had per-
fect confidence. It ought Cat to be eatiafictorily esta-
blished that there waseetnetbing in the political sentitnenti
of that great officer which rendered it advisable to remove
him. If so, hard as the. cue was upon the,country, lie
admitted that the evil mustbe submitted to. . But when a
Government which founded itself upon principles of
economy, without any neeeleity burdened the country with
a pension of 4,0001. to aretiring Chancellor, end of .9,00t1/.
odd to a retiring, Judge, be thought's-Me' ixplatittion of
the subject was necessary. He did not say that such pro
ceedings were nut justifiable: he only said that they re-
quired explanation.

Lord PALMERSTON expressed his surpri►+e; 'after dm
explanation which bad been giver► I.y his Noble Friend,
that—.

Sir E. 11. SUGDEN•begged the Nobleloid'a. partintt.
He was not in the House at the time. •

I ord PALMERSTON was sorry for it ; for the. Hon.
and Learned Gentlemen would have heard a very satisfac-
tory explanation from his Noble Friend. He must take
the liberty of saying that it' wil rather extraoldinary,
the Hon. and Learned Gentlifitan to speak of replying to
a speech which he had not heard,' affording the House, by
that admission, a just criterion by which to estimate the
value of his own remarks. To what he had himself al-
ready urged, he had now only to add, that he hoped the
House would suspend its opinion till all the details wera
laid before it.., 7Tlien, and not lilUtheri,.-would a just opi-
nion bo formttl. On biapartrit tequirett no great expls-
tition to 'show that-the 4mm 'public functionaries referred
to'were not yet divested' of.Thnir political character or di-
ties—they of necessity had Mach communication with the
confidential advisers .and officers:of !the Crown, and it was
therefore matter of necessity- dint thershould possess the
political confidence of ,thoseld placed •in communication
with them—no persons disagreeing in, Certain political °pi-
nions could tarry on the business of 'the .country whets
standing towards each other in such relations. The ar-
rangement proposed to be made ',was one which could not
fail, under all the circumstances of ,the case, tote desi-
rable. So far as their arrangements had hitherto gone,
they had enjoyed the approbation ,tif the House and the
country, and so long only as they felt thettletterved and
possessed that approbation did they desire to continue in
the situations which they then held..—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CALCRAF f would certainly 'not refrain from
giving au opinion on the appointment in question ; at the
same time he would say that any Cievertitnent which could
secure the Noble Lord's Cervices would be guilty of a grist
dereliction of duty in not doing so. He deprecated as sin-
cerely and a. heartily as any one could the tixing upon tbe
country additional charges ; yet he could not grudge a stn-
which would obtain for theta the services Of that N,ble
Lord. As to the subject of economy and retrenchment,
he fully agreed with the Hon. Baronet the Member foe
Westminster that cutting down too low might prove highly
mischievous, while to remunerate those officers not really
useful to the State in a manner at all approaching' the
payments to be made to more laborious and efficient,wouhl
be alike' incompatible with justiee and sound policy: He did entreat Noble Lords and Right Hen. Gentlemen op-
I
posite, when they had done what they proposed to- do
with reference to their own Wariest, not to visit the su-
bordinate clerks with the same sort of severity which they
thought tit to practise on themselves.

JrA. G. BANKES contended that there WAS no such
ground of preference in Axone of Lord Plunkett over Sir
Anthony Hart, and that he Might he unwed to say, wills,
out derogating anything from the reputation of the Noble
Lord, there was to be, for the purpose of appointing Lord
Plunkett, an expence of 4,0001.

Colonel SIBTHORP wished to learn frum the Noble
Lord opposite what wee to be done respecting the Comp.
troller of the Navy, the Clerk of the Council, and the
Atnbsesador to the Court of Vienna, 'who had a talary of
12,000/. a year? He earnestly deprecated any reduction
in the emoluments of the subordinate clerks.
Lord ALTHORP could not jot then answer the ques-
tion of the Hon. Member respecting the Comptroller. of
the Navy. With respect to' the Second Clerk of the
Council, he barite etitot that 7lir, Ilethurst was appointed
before the accession of. the
,present Administration—
(Hear, beir)...4ad at a salary of 9,0004 n year. It woe
proposed now' to reduce it to 1,9001. a year.--(;Clwer,.)
—As to our Ambassador at Vienna, no Change had yet
taken plater.
Mr..GOULBURN *Aid that the pleasure of his hiajestY
had teen taken with respect to the Clerk of the Council,
lard he had further to state that had the late Ad/Wiliam-
thin remained in office a change would have taken ph1...0
in the salary much more beneficial to the public than that
made by the present Governmettt—(A laugh.)
Mr. It. COLBORNE Wag quite sure that any reduc-
tion made in the salaries of subordinate officer, could not
failMuir.i:L*AtlßleOwasltlETEiblviehredmtnolre.peat the question put
the other night try the Hon. Member for Bletchittgly.
Lie understorid that to less than four pensions had been
granted by the Duke of Wellington, on the late Admi-
nistration, thellate Of which was subsequent to the vie.
tual resignation of office by the Noble Duke. Ile was
desirous of• learning how far this was correct. lie could
not but express his surprise that the Right Hon. Gentle:.
inan (Mr. Ooulhurn) had blamed the Noble Lord (Althorp)
who had so lately conic into office, because he was not
acquainted with the nature of a certain commercial treaty,
at the same time that the Right lion, Gentleman had
himself declared his entire ignorance of the point to which
his (Mr. Laboucherei) question referred, although be
certainly Ought to have hateninforMed on the subject.
Mr. .GOULBURN said, that the' 'Ma. Gentleman re-
quired no answer froM him, for the' information he re-
! quiredwas to be found in a rebut that had been laid open
the table of that House, and as a written doctrutent must
.t all times be more authentic than the recollection of any
titan, awl from that document it appeared that the pensions
in questions had been granted an the 16th of Norember.
Mr. O'CONNELL, as a member of the legal Profession,
did not wish to remain altogether silent, lest that silence
should be construed into indifference to or approbatien of
the proposed arrangement'. lie neither approved or so.
quiesced in them; lie for the present wished to reserve any
opinion that he might have formed upon the sobject.
After a few words (ruin Mr. Jorterarotile, the Motion
was put and agreed or, and the following Committee stp-
pointed ~..Lord Viscount Althorn, 'Sir Robert Pont, Me.
Goulbura, Mr. Burkett, Sir Henry Parnell, Sir Georg.
Warrender, Sir Charles Wetherell, the 'lllarquie of Chats.
Jos, sir Wyne* iDyke''Acland, fir. Adeine, Mr. Bethel!,
Hr. Lawley, Sir Henry Itunbury; Mr, Sandford, Sir
Richard Vyvyau, Laid Stormont, Mr. Baring, Mr. Irving,
Mr. Ward, Mr: HMO, Mr. John Wood, Sit John New-
port, and Mr. Kennedy e power to send for persons, paper/,
and records; five to be the (moron,
Mt. HODGSON tnovetfor a return of persona entitled
to the freedom of certain boroughs by servitude, pari-
loonYo or marriage, who had 'been aoltokted to ouch free.
doom in each of the last fer}r years from the present time.
Mr. CHOKER Objected to the motion.
Sir 0. WETHERELL said that the Stamp Office was
the proper place at which to obtain infotmatimi but no-
thing could be untie fallacious, rotten. soil rntsahleyoua
than proceeding on inch date as these return* world supply.
Mr. HODGSON briedy replied.
Mr. GOULBURN recommended the lion. Member not
to presto his motion in the' form now applied fur. If Ire
wished to get rid of the tar, he had better move a resolu-
tion to that effect.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY also objected to the proteot
form of the 'motion.

Mr. 110D-USON consented to withdraw hit motion,
and rani ha ihould move tho report! of Ilto tox.--Motion

COURT op CIJA.NCERY.
Mr. SPENCE prefaced his motion by observing that
the paper which he now sought to obtain vise one that
would he moat necetaary in the'eusuittg inquiries respect.
ing Retbfrii in the Court ,of Chancery. His object was tai
affect reduction in the expenses of it suit in that Court,
Intl to place the Court on thiatune footing ss in the 40th
of Elixeiheth when the number of offieere there was amply
auflicient for the purposes required. One' f his plane was
to get rid of recital', and to incorporate orders in the-pro,
veedinge themselves. The document he required 'was eh..
whitely neeessary for his pniposes.
Sir E. 13. 'BII(MEN did nut oppoae the motion, as the
lion. and Learned Gentleman pledged himself to the zto.
cessity of hayieg the document.
The ATTOItNEY-GENERAL consented to the ma-
doe. The tincument asked for wadi most important.
Sir E. B. SUODEN reminded the }louse that its had
intended to bring in a Mil to regulate the practice of
the Court of ChollOfryi and on Tuesday hs should bike