The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 12.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
SEVERN NAVIGATION.
Petitions in favour of the above Bill were presented by
Mr. Dillwyn ; Mr. Tooke, from Truro ; Mr. Hardy, from
Bradford ; Captain Berkeley, from Gloucester, and five
other places ; Sir John Beckett, from Leeds ; Sir George
Grey and Mr. Robinson, from the City of Worcester, the
Town Council of Worcester, and the Inhabitants of Bir-
mingham.

Petitions against the Bill were presented by Mr. W..
WYNN, from Welshpool, Mr. CLIVE and Lord DAR—
LINGTON.

Captain WINNINGTON moved the second reading.
of the Severn Navigation Bill.
Captain BERKELEY trusted the House would favour'
him with its attendance while he stated the grounds;
on which he intended to move that the Bill should be
read a second time that day six months. It vita
not necessary for him to go into the details of the measure,
as the Committee was the proper place to do that.— .
(Hear, hear). The Bill, however, was of so objectionable
a principle,-30 monstrous a monopoly for the pur—
pose of giving profit to a few adventurers, and took away
land to which the public had been entitled under
several Acts of Parliament since the reigns of Henry the
Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth—he felt that the whole
principle was so objectionable, that he could not allow it to,
go to a second reading without his decided objection. This;
Company, which claimed to have tolls to the amount of WI
per cent., had not raised by 60,0001. the money said to be.
subscribed for, anti they had not a farthing to meet the ex--
penses of the mischief that would occur to the proprietors
of land throughout the line. He felt bound to oppose the
Bill upon the great principles which the House had laid
down with respect to railways. The first of those principles
was, that there should be a certain number of assents of
the proprietors ofland.—( Hear, In ar.) Now, in the present
measure, out of seventy-one miles of beautiful pasture land
through which the canal went, only seven miles-and-a-half
of th• proprietors ha 1 assented. His next objection was.
that there was no terminus ; and his third was that there
was no instance where a public river had been allowni
to be interfered with, and made the property of a joint;
stock Company. For these reasons he felt bound to oppose:
the Bill, and move that it be read that day six months..
The Hen. and Gallant Member concluded by moving, as
an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time this day

six months.
Sir G. STRICKLAND seconded the amendment.
The Earl of DARLINGTON felt it to be his duty to
oppose the second reading of the Bill. The Company-
sought to be established by this Bill was a joint stock Com-
pany, for the purpose of making Worcester a sea port-
If the people of Worcester wished to convert that city into.
a seaport, it ought to be done at their own expense, and not-
by taxing the public. The opposition to the Bill was very
general and powerful. There was first the Port of Glou-
cester Company ; secondly, the Dudley and Gloucester-
Canal Company ; thirdly, the Birmingham and Gloucester'
Canal Company ; and, fourthly, the Montgomery acre
Shropshire Railway Company. The whole of the land
owners between Gloucester and Worcester were oppose&
to it ; and under all the circumstances he trusted the
House would see the necessity of postponing the mettsum
at least for another session.

Sir G. STRICKLAND did not like to shut out par-
ties from going before Committees, where their cases were
sifted minutely ; but on some occasions he thought the
House exercised a wholesome control by throwing out Bills,
upon a second reading, where strong grounds were made out.
why persons should be saved from the enormous expense•
of going before a Committee. He thought that this.
was a Bill upon which the House ought to•
exercise that controul, first, because the beautiful river.
Severn had for centuries been a common highway, and a•
Joint Stock Company had no right to seize upon it for their•
own purposes.—(Hear.) If the navigation could be im
proved, then he thought it ought to be done by Act of
Parliament, appointing Commissioners who should be ob-
licred to pay off the debt as soon as possible, and thew to
throw the river open again.—(Cheer.) By the Bill,
too, the river was to be raised four feet. At present
the meadows on the margin of the river were flooded often
but if it were raised, then they would be rendered useless
and of no value. No wonder then that the landed pro-
prietors were opposed to the Bill. They were so, for out
71 miles, there were only four miles of assent to this
monstrous Bill.

Colonel WOOD said the river Severn was as much a
highway as the river Thames. The reason he troubled the
House on the present occasion was, that he had been cad"
trusted with a petition from the Abergavenny Canal Goat"
pang, which stated, by the improvements contemplated' la
the river Severn, they would be enabled to send Welsh coals
considerably higher up the river than they could at present A
therefore he should support the second reading of the BA.
The Hon. and Gallant Member concluded by presenting' a'
petition from the Abergavenny Canal Company in favour of
the Bill.
Alderman W 00 D opposed the second reading of the Bill_
Mr. RICHARDS agreed with the Hon. Member for
Gloucester, that if it could not be shown the measure was
of public utility, it ought not to receive the sanction of the,
House. That Hon. and Gallant Member commenced his
opposition to the Bill by stating that he would not enter
into details—it was most wise of him not to do se,
for if he had, he would have shown clearly that it
was A measure of great public utility.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member proceeded to address some further ob-
servations in support of the Bill to the House, but the cr►ce
of " Divide," were so loud and general, that we could not
catch a single sentence.

Mr. ROBINSON supported the Bill, The Company
by whom it was brought forward had undertaken a gr eat
public improvement at their own risk and expense, and
hoped the House would see the propriety of allowing the
Bill to go before a Committee, when its details could be
more fully investigated. The Severn was now running
through the heart of a manufacturing country almost use-
lessly. By the Bill before the House, a Company sought,
at their own expense, no doubt for their own benefit, but
equally for that of the public—they wished to make the river
at all times useful. There was but little navigation in it
at present, and for four months in the year it was total!):
useless for want of water. The Bill would- make it weft'
at all times, and hr, on the part of the promoters of the
Bill,. undertook that, in the Committee, a clause granting
ample compensation would be introduced, if it were
were thought the Bill did not already provide sufficient
for such damage as should be done.
Mr. CLIVE trusted the House would allow the 1311
to pass the second reading. •
Mr. T. HOPE would support the amendment.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY supported the Bill. Two par-
tiesepposed it...the inhabitants of the City of Gloucester
and the traders on the river. On what grounds theinhabitante
of Gloucester opposed the measure he could not conceive
that city had never been a very flourishing one, but be
thought it would be much improved if the measure was car"
vied. If any danger would result to the landholders, then
they must.have very clumsy engines.
Captain WINNINGTON said that the people of We"
cester had as great an interest in preserving the saline!.
fishery as the people of Gloucester bad—they did to;
by any means seek to injure it. He hoped that tb
Honourable Gentleman would withdraw his or
position to the measure, and let it go to a Committee'
where it could be rendered as perfect as possible.
Mr. CRESSETT PELHAM hoped the House woula
not sanction the passing of that monstrous measure. The
Sir ROBERT PEEL had only one word to say.
argument of the Hon. Member was conclusive in favon
of the Bill.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Hells°
divided, when the numbers were—
For the second reading
For the Amendment
Majority
The Bill is consequently lost.
BATH AND WEYMOUTH RAILWAIr'Batis
Mr. W. MILES moved the second reading of the
and Weymouth Railway Bill. t of
Mr. ROEBUCK opposed the Bill, stating that, n,ouesl,
2,614 of his constituents whom the measure effect
1,963 had petitioned against it, as injurious to their.'
vbe
rest. The Hon. Gentleman then moved that the PI
ll
readlagain that day fortnight. and
After a few words by Mr. F. Buxton, Mr. Poulter.'..o-
- R. Inglis and from Mr. Roebuck and Mr. Miles.,vrsio,
planation, the amendment was agreed to without a
nclifootit
Mr. ROEBUCK then moved that the petitions 10001.
of and against the Bill should be referred to a select u
mittee.—Agreed to. joes
Sir G. CLERK presented a petition from Mr- 0, foil..
Gibson Craig against the Edinburgh and Glaage
way
M Bill.
r. MACKINNON was desirous of pustproingiceotion
tion for the second reading of the Patents for 1
Bill'ne th
Ato at
TTOay %
d fortnight. o_,ld be
RNEY-GENERAL thought it s'
better to postpone it to that day six months. iltb
The second reading was then postponed until tnu
of next month.
1‘
Mr.
CIEKRICNHGIitNA'Ari SEA
MEN'S BILL• ding of
BUmoped.
the Merchant Seamen's Bill. The House would r Te,.55:00
. last •-...
that a Select Committee had been appointee
ifferent Ship'
to inquire into the number and cause of the
I deo-uld be dc-
wrecks, wrecks, and to report whether any remedy
leged that many of the shipwrecks arose from
To three sources
stanccs independent of he elements.,
5. Tile o!._
were attributed the frequency of shipwrecl
_econd the
was the defective strength of the vessels ; the "

124
151
--.27

tl,

.teficiency of their equipments ; and the third the want of
competency in the persons who were intrusted with the
command. The remedy proposed was the establishment
of a board of superintendence similar to that of the Ad-
rsaralty. The Bill proposed that ships during the time of
building should be subject to a survey, and again on going
to sea to ascertain and report whether their construction
vas good and that they were sound and sea-worthy, pro-
perly supplied with stores, and commanded by competent
officers.
Sir E. CODRINGTON seconded the motion. The
Hon. and Gallant Member presented a petition from
Shields, signed by 407 seamen in the merchant service; in
farOP:r of the measure.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether, as the Bill
Vas one for taxing the subject alluded more especially
to the 18th clause), it should not originate in a resolution
of a Committee of the whole House ? He also put it to
the Speaker whether that informality did not destroy it ?
The SPEAKER said that the clause should, undoubt-
tdlY, have been preceded by a resolution of the whole
House in Committee.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that objec-
tion fatal. The Bill should be withdrawn.
Mr. ROBINSON wished to know whether the Go-
vernment had any measure on the subject to substitute in
its place?
Mr. P. THOMSON was of opinion that the clause in
question should be first voted in a Committee of the whole
House.
After a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK, Mr. HOME, and
the F.AKER, the Bill was withdrawn.

COUNTY RATES BILL.
Mr. HUME then rose to move the second reading of
the County Rates' Bill ; and in order that the measure
Might be understood by the public, he begged to explain
the principle of it. That principle was to substitute for
the magistrates, who now levied and appropriated the County
Rates, a body of persons chosen by the rate-payers them-
selves. At present the rate-payers of counties bad no
controul or check over the individuals who imposed and
appropriated the rates ; for they were not permitted to
see the accounts ; and it appeared they could not claim
a sight of those accounts as a right ; for it had lately
been decided in the Court of King's Bench, after hear-
ing the case for several days, that the rate-payers had no
right to inspect the accounts. He (Mr. Hume) proposed,
that the rate-payers shoUld themselves elect a Board,
consisting of twelve or twenty, or some such number of
persons, who should have the levying and appropriating of
the rates. The Bill, in other words, only proposed to
place the rate-payers in counties on the same footing as the
rate-payers in boroughs were placed by the Municipal Cor-
poration Bill, than which, he conceived, nothing could be
ie:ere fair or equitable. He was sure that no plan could
give greater satisfaction to those who paid rates. He thought
it imp-ortant that the rate-payers should have some such
cheek or control over those who had the appropriation of
their tool ey. In the county of Stafford, where a plan simi-
lar to that he proposed had been in practice for some time,
the reduction in the amount of rates had been great indeed.
HQ submitted, therefore, whether there should not be an
Uniform law of the same kind throughout England. He
repeated that counties ought to be placed on the same foot-
50' as Eoroughs. It had been objected by some to his
Bill Board
that a new ought not to be appointed, but
that the Board of Guardians would be the fittest persons
to impose and appropriate the rates. He (Mr. Hume)
thought that this would be most injudicious. He thought
the Poor-law Guardians had enough of work on their
''ands without anything additional. To appoint them in
the proposedcase would be to load them with duties incom-
Patible with the performance of their present duties.
At, the same time if the House would permit the Bill
14 go into Committee, he would have no objection to
;10Y alterations in the details. Unless the rate-payers
ave a control over the appropriation of their money
there can be no economy or good management. He (Mr.
Hume) thought the Bill so important, and that the im-
Prevenient it would effect would be so great, that he re-
gretted Government itself had not brought in a Bill similar
to the present ; it would have added greatly to their popu-
hrit.Y. If the House approved of the principle of the Bill,
all be asked was that they would allow it to go into Com-
mittee, where the details could be modified in any way that
might be deemed best. Before he sat down, he begged to
correct a mistaken notion which had gone abroad on the
64:eCt. It was objected to the measure, that the object of
it was to appoint a rural police. Nothing could be farther
Irom the intention of the Bill. All he wished was, that a
Force should be appointed to afford the necessary protection
to the property of the country. The measure, therefore,
Was not open to the objection which had been urged against
it. The Hon. Member then concluded by moving the
second reading of the Bill.
Mr. ALSTON said his name bad been annexed to this
measure, as if he had approved of it, without his consent.
Mr. HUME said that was the result of a mistake. The
Hon. Member, when last year presenting a petition on the
subject, expressed himself favourable to the principles of the
measure. When he (Mr. Hume) brought in the Bill, he
was told by an Hon. Member that the Hon. Gentleman
`Mr. Alston) was in favour of the measure, and therefore
be had put his name to it.—(A laugh.) The thing, it would
be seen, was the result of a mistake, and he (Mr. Hume)
hoped the Hon. Gentleman would be satisfied with the
e4planation.
Mr. ALSTON said that,in his opinion, the good effected
by the Poor-law Amendment Act would be completely
neutralized if the Bill should pass.
Mr. G. KNIGHT should have supported the Bill if it
was one of indictment against the Magistrates of the
.county of Middlesex, rather than against the Magistrates
of every county in England.
Colonel WOOD contended that the details of the Bill
were so anomalous and unsuited to the- proper government
of county business that the House ought not to adopt it.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY should be better pleased
if this measure had been taken up by the Government.
Something, however, must be done, and therefore he would
vote for the second reading. He would suggest some
alterations in the Committee. Every rate-payer should be
allowed to inspect the accounts. He disapproved of that
Part of the Bill which provided for the appointment of a
Board of Delegates. The Board of Guardians under the
Poor-law Bill might do the business.
A. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said that the Bill was an in-
Lactrnent against the magistrates of England, and he was
surprised to hear the Hon. Baronet who spoke last say he
"id support it. There was no complaint against the
I)unty rates in Kent. The Hon. Baronet was much mis-
taken, if he supposed the Board of Guardians would add
`43,,Vieir other labours that of managing the county rates.
toe magistrates of the county which he had the honour
represent were most anxious to reduce the rates as
tionsFlt as possible, that the
bad succeeded. He had no n nation in saying that the effect of this Bill would be to
add 3
h„ ,000/. or 4,000/. a year to their amount. Any such
-.maser
e was entirely unnecessary in the county of Kent.
„2-4td EBRINGTON, although he approild of the
Thant'
of the measure before the House, was opposed to
4nY of its details, and with a view to its beiug modified in
Committeer, he would vote for the second reading.—( Hear.)
not WILMOT could not support the Bill. He did
object to the county-rate payers having some control
-vet the e .
coetrit_ xPenditure of the funds to which they so largely
It or_ unted, but, in his own opinion they already had much
e control than the House was aware of. By this Bill the whole of the oft that expenditure would be taken out of time hands
tore gistracy. In his own county, out of an expendi-
over 154000ut 20,0001. ayear, the rate-payers had control
iOO/ .t.
tes • °I
formed. ,
e(thEelltiCK said that if an opinion were to be
MeMber principle of the Bill from the language. of Hon.
ci whB,°ne would be led to suppose that it was a prin-
heao 1" Was now for the first time heard of.—(Hear,
efficient What, he should like to know, had been the most
with th_way of making those responsible who were entrusted
ele t. exPenditure of money raised by taxation ? Why,
Whiecllve_.reprsentation.—(Cheers.) It was the principle
boruu Ztained in that House, and in the counties and
almost ec-ery(Hear.) It had been said that in every county
gentleman was a magistrate. Gentleman!
tttionwas, a gentleman ? In England, it seemed the de-
cheers.) °I gentleman was a rich man.—(Oh, oh, and
Hear, hearntY magistrates were a great nuisance
the, hear)—tted actuated by party purposes filled
the vfith poor wretches.--(Cries of Order," from
his
oubseprosition benches.) Let Hon. Gentlemen reply to
terrupt Yati"s
when he had concluded them, and not in-
if they could b
As FY eould.—(
y cr es of " Order." Let them answer him
(agtstracyT• Hear, hear.) He repeated that an unpaid
Order.) vehaas a curse to the country. (Oh, oh, and
b t. sort of Magistracy, experience told them,
4icievstenri:
Vico obtained the confidence of the people. The
and
it shoo was already driven from the towns,
(Remy
ear: soon
hbe chased from the counties also.—
the e__ )
un ties ? It .sv
t,:vetrheethe towns in comparison with
stronghold of thecounties which formed the
,ould support the
7 ,„.as reading of the Bill, because it
based upon a system of
wheers.) representative responsibility.—
E• BULLER testesproested against a Bill that, under
de county , attempted to get rid, by
wind of so vital a question as that of the appoint-
if
811j,st___he Magistracy of the county. For his own part,
ommwere top ass, he would respectfully lay his
ission at the feet of his Majesty, and ask to be re•
feel from further filling a situation to which he should
'eetubre. couldtr not, under these circumstances, be entitled.
Bilit w NG said as he objected to every clause of the
to ould be more candid and explicit for him at once
vote as
„ •inn the
p_ arts of.
ngland the-Ho second reading.—(Loud cheers from
Of use?) He did not think the magistracy
ought to e disgrE:ced in the manner which

Lord STANLEY said that it was not his intention to
enter into the merits of the subject, although he enter-
tained a strong opinion with regard to the Bill, and the
principle which it involved. It went to affect the whole
domestic polity of the country, civil and criminal, and that
was the first time he had heard it stated in the House of
Commons that a question of such moment, one that ought
to have come direct from his Majesty's Ministers—(Hear,
hear)—Ministers calling themselves the Government of the
country—(Cheers)—was to be proceeded with while they
absented themselves, in order to avoid expressing, as they
were bound as Ministers of the Crown to do, their opinion
as to the effect of the plan, and their views with regard to
the jurisprudence of the country. The Bill, he contended,
involved highly important matters, and therefore it was
that he thought the Noble Lord the Secretary of State
for the Home Department should have been in his place.
It' the subject had been unimportant why had the Govern.
ment appointed a Commission ? Why had they required
the Commissioners to make a repo ttupon exp'a n
their views ?—( Hear, hear.) What was -the- answer which
the Under-Secretary of State, there being no Cabinet
Minister present, gave to this question ? Why, he said it
was a mere matter of finance. Uthen, it were a matter
of finance, why was not the Chancellor of the Exchequer
in his place ?—(Cheers.) The question was either of para-
mount importance or it was not ; but, if it were, ought not
some influential member of the Government to be present.
They had heard that the Report of the Commissioners had
been presented to the Horne-office. Now what was the
Home-office—what was the duty of that department ?
Was it not to watch over the magistracy ; encourage them
when right, control them when wrong,
and vindicate them
in the proper discharge of their duty before the public ?
(Cheers.) In his (Lord Stanley's) mind, when a serious
charge, affecting the character of the magistracy was
brought forward, his Majesty's Government ought to be
present, and say whether they were prepared to sanction it.
Surely this would he the proper and manly course. But
then they wished very conveniently, upon some future occa-
sion, to have it in their power to say—" Oh, we entertained
our own opinion upon the matter ; but the decision rested
in the heeds of the county magistrates themselves, and
nobody can wonder at the result."—(Loud cheers.) The
only mendier of the Government who had ventured to ex-
press an opinion was the Under-Secretary for the Home
Department : and in what he had stated he had cautiously
guarded himself, for he had gone no further than saying that
he thought the principle of the Bill was a good principle,
and one of which he approved. He objected to the prin-
ciple of the Bill. They had no evidence before them that.
the Magistrates of England had failed in the discharge of
their duties. In his conscience he believed that they most
efficiently, and advantageously, and usefully, discharged their
duties.—(Cheers.) This Bill, from one end of the country
to the other, would be taken to be a slur upon the Magis-
tracy of England. Looking at this Bill as involvihg a
principle affecting the entire administration of justice, he
could not consent to its second reading.
Major BEAUCLERK was sorry to have heard the
Noble Lord state that he did not consider it decent for his
Majesty's Government to be absent on this occasion, and
particularly when the Noble Lord did not know what

this Bill would disgrace them. As far as his own county
(Middlesex) was concerned, he could safely say that their
accounts were quite perfect, constantly subjected to exa-
mination, and in themselves an evidence that the county
money was never ill-expended.—(Hear; hear.)
Mr. MILES would oppose this Bill, as well on its prin-
ciple as with respect to its details.
Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE also opposed the Bill. He
differed in toto from the observations which had fallen
from the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath. If the
Hon. Member said the county magistracy were a " nui-
sance," he (Mr. Lefevre) would say that he believed the
only instance in which they were, or could be so, was
when the magistrates were popularity-hunters.--(Hear.)
Mr. LENNARD should support the Bill. Ile was
far, however, from bringing any charge, on the ground of
extravagance, against the magistracy ; but be at the same
time did think it a great evil that they should have in
their hands the distribution of such a sum as 600,000/. a
year, without the people having any controul whatever over
the expenditure of so immense a fund.—(Cries of " Ques-
tion, question," " Divide, divide.")
Mr. TULK, concurring in the principle of the measure,
and notwithstanding he thought its details would admit of
very considerable alteration and improvement in the Com-
mittee, he should give his vote for the second reading.
While he said this, he could not help expressing his re-
gret that his Hon. Friend had brought forward so com-
plex a measure.—(Renewed cries of " Question," and
" Divide.")
Mr. JAMES—Agreeing as he did in the principle of
this measure, and without denying that its details were sus-
ceptible of very considerable alteration, should support the
motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex.—
(Renewed cries of " Question," and " Divide.")
Mr. GOULBURN must express the regret which he
felt at finding that a Bill of such vast importance as that had
been left in the hands of an individual Member of that
House, instead of being, as he contended it ought to have
been, brought forward by his Majesty's Government.—
( Hear.) He thought the Noble Lord the Secretary of
State for the Home Department ought at least to have been
in his place, to state to the House the opinion which his
Majesty's Government entertained on the subject. It could
not be forgotten that the Government had appointed a
Commis: ion to inquire into the subject of county rates so
long back as two years ago, and that the Commissioners
had made their report at the express desire of the Govern-
ment. That report and this Bill had been referred by the
Government to the Quarter Sessions of the different coun-

tics, in order to obtain the opinion of the Magistrates upon
the subject t.—(Cries of " No, no.") He held in his hand
a letter from an official party connected with the Quarter
Sessions of one county to -Lord John Russell, acknow-
ledging the receipt of the copies of the Report and Bill.
Mr. HUME rose to order. It was truer that he had re-
quested tl-.e Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the
Home Del utment to send copies of his Bill to the clerks
of the diffi rent quarter sessions, but the Noble Lord hav-
ing declined to do so, he (Mr. Hume) himself caused co-
pies to be forwarded.

Mr. GOULBURN continued—At all events, in the
instance to which he referred the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex had been anticipated ; but be that as it might he
(Mr. G.) concurred with the Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Hampshire, that, the Commissioners having made
their report to the Government, with the Government it
rested, and with them alone, to say what effect such a
measure was likely to have on the administration of justice
throughout the country.---(Hear.) He now saw the Hon.
Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Home
Department in his place, and he hope,' to learn from him
what the siews and opinions of the 13rovernment were with
respect to this Bill.—(Hear.) Disapproving of the mea-
sure in principle, as well as with respect to its details, he
could not, for one, consent to its being read a second time.
The Hon. Member for Middlesex told them that this was
not an official but a financial measure, that 'it would not
affect the administration of justice. Now, was that the
fact ? What was the provision with regard to sheriffs?
Why, that, although they were to be responsible for the
custody of prisoners, they were to have no charge of the
gaols.—(Hear.) The whole of the rules and regulations
for the government of the gaols were so be made by the
council board, as were also the arrangements with respect
to the appointment of constables. This, therefore, was
not a financial but an official measure, because it was clear
that it would materially affect the administration of justice.
The Hon. Member for Bath had said that the people of
England had no confidence in the Magistracy. If that
were the fact, how did it happen that it was from among
the Magistracy that they selected the persons who repre-
sented their feelings and interests in that House ?—( Hear.)
The Honourable Member for Malden supported this Bill
on the ground that taxation and representation shotdd
go hand in hand. Did the Hon. Gentleman forget that
the greater part of this 600,0001 distributed by the magis-
trates arose from taxes imposed not by them, but by Par-
liament, and that although the magistrates distributed it,
they had no discretion in the matter beyond following the
course pointed out to them for the purpose by the Legis-
lature ?—(Hear, hear, bear.) For one, he never would
concur in any proposition for making the magistracy an
elective body.

Lord WORSLEY was not surprised that this Bill had
been brought in, for he believed that the people of this
country were desirous that some such change as was pro-
posed to be effected by it should take place.
Mr. E. STANLEY approved of the principle of the.
Bill. When the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley)
brought in the Bill for the regulation of grand juries in Ire-
land, he by that measure recognised the principle contained
in the prev-ent measure ; because he admitted that a certain
number of rate-payers should be selected to sit as associates
with the grand jurors on the financial business of the coun-
tie s. called, therefore, upon that Noble Lord to ex-
tend the principle of his measure to England. The people
of England had a right to have some voice in the constitu-
tion of that body who were empowered to levy taxes on
them, and direct their expenditure. The magistrates of
England were the only irresponsible body in the country,
who had the power of levying a tax and controlling its ap-
propriation. But he had yet to learn, that because an Hon.
Member voted for the second reading of a Bill in support
of its principle, he was therefore pledged to all the details
of that Bill. No doubt there were some details in the
present Bill, to which he could not give his assent ; but
this by no means prevented him from supporting the second
reading ; lie was therefore somewhat surprised that his Hon.
Friend, the Member for Hertfordshire, should have moved
an amendment that this Bill be read a second time that day
six months, when in the strongest language he declared that
he recognised the principle that taxation and representation
were co-equal.
Mr. HUME replied—Many Hon. Gentlemen had ex-
pressed their approbation of the principle of the Bill, but
at the same time said that they dissented from many of its
details. He regretted that those gentleman had not more
specifically pointed out what their objections were. The
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire (Stanley)
was opposed to the principle of the measure ; but this did
not trouble him (Mr. flume); for he had heard the Noble
Lord advocate principles, while sitting on the Ministerial
side of the House, that were worthy of a man of the most
liberal opinions ; and he had heard him since he had been
in Opposition express sentiments as hostile to the liberties
of the people as the bitterest Tory could do. He (Mr.
Flume) did not entertain a doubt that he should witness a
similar change in the Noble Lord's opinion, even with re-
spect to this measure, all in due time. Hon. Gentlemen
on the other side accused him of having drawn up a Bill
of indictment against the magistrates of the country, but
they did not refuse acting as judges in their own cause.
He would address those Hon. Gentlemen thus : You who
are arraigned, you who have a bill of indictment drawn up
against you, rise and leave the House.

Mr. FOX MAULE said, that-the Right lion. Gentle-
man had stated that the Home Office had caused copies of
this Bill to be sent to the Quarter Sessions of the different
counties ; but all he could say was, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman's assertion was the first intimation he had re-
ceived of such a fact.—( Hear, hear.) He did not, how-
ever, believe that the Home Office had used any influence
one way or the other on the subject, and, as the Govern-
ment regarded the matter as a mere local measure—(Cries
of" Oh, oh !")—they declined to interfere, on the ground
that as the Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House
were magistrates, it would be best to leave them to decide
it among themselves.—(Renewed cries of " On, oh,"
laughter, and " hear, hear.") It certainly appeared to him
that the Bill related only to a financial arrangement, but
as he did not think himself called on to enter more at
large into the subject, all he would now say was, that
it was his intention to vote for the motion of his Ho-
nourable Friend (the Member for Middlesex), because the
measure involved a principle of which he approved, namely,
that all those who contributed to the rates should know
how their funds were applied.—( Hear, hear.) While he
said this he must also state that there were many parts of
the Bill to which he had objections. He regretted the ob-
servations used by the Hon. Member for Bath, and thought
it ought always to be remembered that nothing was more
injudicious than remarks which tended to bring those in
whose hands the administration of justice was placed into
contempt.

The House then divided. The numbers were—
For the second reading B4
Against it
Majority
The Bill was consequently lost.
The Freeman's Admission Bill was postponed till Wed-
nesday se'nnight.

COURT OF SESSION BILL.

The House then went into Committee on this Bill.

Sir W. RAE expressed his disapprobation of the • con-
duct of Ministers, who—in appointing to the office of
Chief Clerk of the Court of Session—had passed over the
four Clerks of Session, who were superseded, on retiring
pensions. He was quite surprised that this opportunity of
saving the public money bad been neglected.
The LORD ADVOCATE and Mr. FOX MAULE
defended the appointment. Mr. Napier bad been invested
with the office in question solely because he appeared the
person most competent to fill it.

Mr. A. TREVOR, seeing that, contrary to the under-
standing, a discussion had arisen on this measure at this late
hour of the night, moved that the Chairman report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again.
The motion being agreed to, the House resumed.
WAYS AND MEANS.

The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER hoped
that Hon. Members would not object to the House going
into a Committee of Ways and Means, for the purpose of
taking a vote to cover the Supplies already voted.
The House having gone into the Committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved,
that to make good the Supplies already voted to his Majesty,
there be granted a sum of 8,000,000.7. out of the Consoli-
dated Fund.

The motion was agreed to ; and the House having re-
sumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
SHARES IN RAILWAY COMPANIES.
Captain C lIETWYND gave notice, that on the 21 of
May he would submit a resolution on the subject of Mem•
bers of that House holding shares in Railway Companies
on Committees.

THE LATE ACTION IN SPAIN.
Capiain BOLDERO gave notice, that he should to-
morrow move "for a copy of any letter from Lord John
Hay, containing an account of the co-operation afforded by
the seamen and marines under his command to the troops
of the Queen of Spain on the 15th and 16th of March,
1837. Also, for a copy of any report received by the
Master General of the Ordnance, Inspector-General of
Fortifications, or Commanding Officer of Artillery at
Woolwich, as to whether any casualt:e3 have occurred in
the detachments of Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, and

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, APRIL 13, 1837

might be the cause or the reason of their absence.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh" and cheers.) He certainly thought
that before the Noble Lord ventured to use such language
he ought first to have inquired the cause of the absence of
which he complained.—(" Oh, oh," and laught Ir.) When
in office the Noble Lord himself had often been ab-
sent on impoitant occasions.—(Cheers, and counter cheers).
He did not mean to make any attack upon the magistracy.
He believed on the contrary, that there were many honour-
able and high-minded men amongst them. He happened
to be one hiniself.—(Roars of laughter.) He hoped Hon.
Gentlemen at the other side of the House would excuse
him, when he said that their laughter rather showed the
want of a proper knowledge of the English language than
anything else. He had heard with surprise the declaration
of the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge, that the magi-
stracy had, in the discharge of their duty, given perfect
satisfaction to the people of the country. The Right Hon.
Gentleman perhaps meant the rich; hut he (Major Beau-
clerk) said that the people of the country generally did not
entertain that opinion. Their interference at elections (as
we understood the Hon. Member) was against the people.
He did not agree with the Hon. Member for Bath in all
the charges that he had made against the magistracy, but
he thought that a magistracy chosen in the manner pro-
posed by this Bill, would be sure to discharge their duties
in the most useful and honest manner. The people of the
country would never be contented, until they had in the
magistracy men of their own choice.
Mr. EWART deprecated the attack made upon Mi-
nisters for their absence that evening by the Noble Lord
(Stanley), and thought that those who advocated the mea-
sure brought forward by the Hon. Member for Middlesex
had an equal right to complain of the absence of the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel),
and of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumber-
land (Sir J. Graham.) He could not boast of having any
peculiar acquaintance with magistrates, but he had seen
enough of their proceedings to convince him that the con-
duct of the magistrates in the administration of the county
funds was not what it ought to be. Whether the present
House of Commons would pass this Bill he knew not ; but
of this he was perfectly satisfied, that if it did riot, another
House of Commons would feel it necessary to pass a mea-
sure founded upon exactly the same principle.
Mr BROTH ERTON said that although the Bill was
unpopular in the House, yet he should cheerfully give it his
support ; at the same time he wished the machinery for
carrying its vinciple into effect were more simple.
Mr. BENETT observed that notwithstanding the Hon.
Member for Bath had attacked the magistrates of England,
yet neither he nor any other Hor -Gentleman had adduced
a single proof in support of those attacks. He regarded
the principle proposed to be introduced by this Bill to be
entirely a new one, and considered it to be altogether un-
called for, as he believed the people of this country were
perfectly contented with the existing controul over the
magistracy.
An Hon. MEMBER, whose name we conld not learn,
begged to say, in reply to the Hon. Member for Wltshire,
that so far from the principle embraced by the present
measure being an innovation on the Constitution, it was,
in fact, a principle in strict accordance with it ; for what
he would ask, was more Constitutional than that taxation
and representation should go together ? This was the prin-
ciple of the Bill, and he was therefore decidedly in favour
of the measure. All the control which the people could
have over the magistrates was that which was to be de-
rived from the publicity of their proceedings. This was
one of the objects of the Bill ; for the supposed control de-
rived through the medium of the courts of law was per-
fectly nugatory. He believed that the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Warwickshire had borne testimony to the
unsatisfactory manner in which country business was trans-
acted by the magistrates, and had even declared that the
Bill of the Hon. Member for Middlesex did not go far
enough.
Sir EARDLEY WILMOT admitted that he had said
that the Bill of the Hon. Member for Middlesex did not
go far enough ; but he begged to explain the sense in
which he had used those words. He felt that if the Bill
were carried to the extent which the Hon. Member for
Middlesex wished it to be, it would entirely destroy the
judicial power of the Magistrates. An Hon. Member had
said that in that event he should resign the commission,
and he (Sir E. Wilmot) said the same. It was in that
sense that he had declared that the Bill did not go far
enough. He lied never complained of the Magistrates
shrinking from responsibility ; but what he did say was,
that after the financial business of the session was over the
Magistrates generally went away and left the judicial busi-
nsss to the Chairman.

Royal Suppers and Miners, employed on the coast of Spain
and under the orders of Lord J. Hay, having reference to
the above-mentkned actions on the 15th and 16th ult."
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter-past One o'Clock.