The Sun.
London, England, 1863-04-29 00:00:00

our armour-plated ships. Take another example, any corn
mission appointed a few months ago, wculd have recom-
mended us to build turret ships, bat what is the news we
get from Charleston ? We have nothing official as yet, but
such information as we have is rather against turret ships.

It is therefore quite impossible for any inquiry to dojuatice
to the subject or for a commission to make any report that
would be of any assi tance to the Admiralty. We are all of
the same mind; we want to construct a navy of the greatest
possible efficiency, and worthy of the power and dignity of
this country. But there are not two people who agree either
as to the class, the form, or the armament of ships. My hon
friend opposite would say, for example, of the 'Warrior that
she is too long and too big, and that she would be damaged
by smaller and handier ships constructed at much less ex •
pease. 'We are now ascertaining what is the smallest class
of vessels to which armour-plating can be applied. Indeed,
with regard to armour-plated ships the Government are en
gaged in carrying on experiments in every direction. We
have got an Armour-plate Committee—a most valuable
body, upon a most important branch of the business, and
one which requires the undivided attention of scientific
men, because upon the iron plates, their capability of re-
sistance and their fastening, the whole of the efficiency of
our armour-plated vessels depends. (Hear, hear.) 1 could
not discaver in my hon. friend's observations and real
grounds of complaint against the Admiralty; neverthe-
less I have no doubt that these discussions aro extremely
useful, because they call the attention of the Government
and the public to the various improvements that may be
made in the construction of our vessels. There is one
matter which may turn out to be of great importance—
namely, the construction of twin screws. My hen. friend
assumes that a construction of that kind has no defects. My
own belief is that in some class of vessels it may prove to be a
very valuable invention. But the Admiralty cannot order
vessels of that construction without awaiting the result of
the trial of the ships which are now being constructed upon
that principle. With regard to the old floating batteries,
my opinion is if you were to lsngthen them you would
make a very bad job, because, in the first place, their state
is not vary satisfactory; and in the next, I would defy any
practical na' al man to make any thing out of them. My hon.
friend speaks of putting three masts into those very long
ships, but I think he might have learned at Portsmouth that
we are putting five masts into the Northumberland and
vessels of that class. Again he says, " Build your iron ships
in your own dockyards." 'When he said that, I looked to-
wards my hon. friend on this side of the house (Mr. Lind-
say), and also to the hon. member for Birkenhead (Mr.
Laird), who seemed to look blue at that recommendation ;
but neither of those hon. gentleman appeared to agree in
that proposition. For my own part, I should be sorry that
the Admiralty should never employ any of the great
shipbuilding establishments of the country. 'We don't
think it at all advisable that our dockyards should be
considered as the only places where we could build armour
plated ships; or, on the other hand, that the Govern-
ment should be thrown entirely into the hands of contrac-
tors. (Hear.) There is a juste milieu. It has been said
that it was matter for regret that the Achilles should have
been built at Chatham. But I challenge my hon. friend
the member for Sunderland—now that we have got our
dockyard accounts in as good a state as his own can be—for
they are no longer under the Controller of the Navy, who
is a spending officer, but under the Accountant-Gene-
ral, who is a controlling officer—to show that our shiss
built in the dockyards are so expensive. (Hear.) He says
the Achilles will be found to have cost vastly more than
any of the armour plated ships built in the merchant yards.
Now, we will remember that when the accounts are closed,
and we shall see whether it is so or not. (Hear, hear.)
My belief is that she will be found not to have cost much
more, if any more. My hon. friend proposes that we should
go to a large expense in docks and basins. (Hear, hear.)
Well, I must say I admire his modesty in not having
alluded to Portsmouth, because I think he must have been
disappointed that the Government had not commenced a
basin there. The remarks which have been made about the
want of dock accommodation in foreign stations are quite
true. In the East and West Indies, China, and North Ame-
rica, there is a great want of dock accommodation ; but her
Majesty's Government have not lost sight of that. We have
not thought fit to propose to Parliament the construction of
a dock at Hongkong; but a very intelligent gentleman has
undertaken to build one which shall contain the Warrior,
upon obtaining an advance of money fr •n► the Government
upon certain fair conditions, and nay belief is that we shall
have a dock constructed there available for the Warrior. In
like manner, at Bermuda, where one of those docks is
wanted, I have very little doubt, should I continue to sit on
this bench, that it will be my duty to propose to Parlia-
ment to vote a sum for that purpose. But we have taken
a very large sum—no less than £lo4,ooo—this year for
docks and basins—for two docks at Portsmouth, one at
Davenport, for enlarging the basin there, for the Chatham
basin, and the Malta dock. We shall have the dock at Malta
on very cheap terms, because the Maltese Government are
going to share the expense. Under these circumstances
I think the house will see that it is impossible for any com-
mission to take away from the Government the responsibi-
lity of keeping this country at all times in a proper posi-
tion as a great maritime Power. (Hear, hear.) That is our
constant business, it is for that we are paid and for which
we are responsible, and I do trust that the house will not
now or at any future period do anything to set aside the
responsibility of the Government upon this point. (Hear.)
The observations which have been made by the noble lord
the member for Huntingdonshire (Lord It. Montagu) upon
the School of Naval Architecture were worthy of attention.
That was a most valuable institution. A great class of
young naval architects was trained there, and when they
had finished their education it was found that the Govern-
ment had not the means of employing them all upon high
wages—for they would not accept any but high salaries.
The result was that when they had completed their train-
ing at the public expense they were spread about the world,
and it was thought that the Government would not be justi-
fied in keeping up that expenditure. The school was after-
wards revived on much the same plan, but again fell to the
ground. My noble friend the Duke of Somerset has felt
very much the want of some satisfactory arrangement by
which we should obtain scientific architects for the benefit
of the public service. (Hear.) Various proposals with that
object have been put before him. The right hon. member
for Droitwieh was good enough to call on my noble friend
and make proposals, when I believe he was received in the
most friendly manner, and assured that any really tangible
scheme submitted to him would be attentively considered.
In whatever way the end in view may best be attained,
whether by the establishment of a school for the benefit of
the shipping interest generally, to which some assistance
might be given by the Government, whether by founding
scholarships at the University, or by any other means, wo
are fully sensible that a great want exists in this respect,
and any scheme which promises real and permanent suc-
cess will meet with our earnest attention. With that assur-
ance I trust that the noble lord will not press his amend-
ment, As to the motion of the hon. and gallant gentleman,
I think it would be very unadvisable that the subject which

it embraces should be referred to any commission. The Go-
vernment have the means of obtaining information from all
quarters as to the best contrivances for the building, mast-
ing, or arming of ships, and I sincerely hope the matter will
be left in their hands. (Hear, hear, )
Sir F. SMITH said we had not either economical con-
struction nor the best mode of construction. He suggested
forming master shipwrights into committees to give designs
for the construction of ships. The house wanted some as-
surance that a different course would be pursued in the
future to what h td hitherto been followed.
Sir J. ELPHINSTON E, in reply, said that the noble
lord had admitted that the Government had no dock accom-
modation in any part of the world. He had not altered his
opinion as to the best solution of the question, but he would
withdraw his motion.
SEWAGE OF TOWNS COMMISSION.

Mr. K. SEYMER, moved that the analysis of evidence
appended to the report of the select committee on sewage
of towns in the session of 1862 be cancelled, on the ground
of an irregularity in the proceeding of that committee in
excluding all debatable matter from the report of the com-
mittee, and producing it all in the analysis of evidence,
The hon. gentleman quoted from the report and analysis in
proof of the proposition.
Mr. PAGET seconded the motion.
Mr. BRADY opposed the motion, and contended that

there were three propositions which could not be contro-
verted—First, that the agricultural interest suffered from
the want of good manure ; secondly, that that want had
been partially supplied by artificial manure; and thirdly,
that it was not for the interest of the trade that any change
in the present system should take place. The hon. gentleman
then proceeded to criticise the report of the royal commis-
Biota, and remarked especially upon that part which alluded
to the unknown process of applying manure all the year
round.
Mr. AYRTON supported the motion.
Sir G. GREY thought that there was some mistake in
the manner in which the hon. member for Leitrim em-
bodied his views on the report, and recommended the ana-
lysis to be cancelled.
r. BRADY consented t withdraw the analysis.
The motion was agreed to.
BAKEHOUSES REGULATION BILL.
Tho report as amended was considered.
- -

ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (IRELAND) BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered and
agreed to, with the exception of one, which was rejected
on a division by 21 to 20.
WAYS AND MEANS.

The report on ways and means was brought up and
agreed to.

In answer to Mr. LYGON,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could not state what would be the amount of the tax on
club-house s.
The Consolidated Fund (120,000,000) and the Exchequer
Bind (11,0000,000) Bills were read a second time.
The house aljourned at five minutes to two o'clock.

AMERICAN MAILS.._. he following steamers are
duo this week :—The City of New York, from New York
on the 18th inst., is clue at Queenstown this morning ; the
North American, from Portland on the evening of the 18th,
is due at Moville or Greencastle this evening.; and the
Africa, from New York on the 22d inst., is due at
_Queen-
stown on Saturday night,