The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-22 00:00:00

and Scotland, and such at first sight, every one must allow,
we should naturally take with regard to the people of Ireland.
In Ireland, as in England, every man has personal, has local,
has national interests ; and, at the first glance or impulse, we
should be inclined to believe that we should in Ireland-:.-as we
have already done in England—establish personal, local, awl
national rights. In Ireland—(confining myself to the second
class—viz., the local or municipal rights)--it is undeniable
that there are precisely the same circumstances of a local na-
ture which have in England induced us to grant municipal
rights to the localities in which these peculiar neighbourhood
interests existed.—(Cheers.) No one who has the slightest
knowledge of the circumstances out of which municipal go-
vernment has arisen, will deny this.—( Hear, hear.) The
necessity is inherent ; it arises the moment men associate ;
and the matter we have to discuss is this:—Why should we
travel out of the ordinary path of government in the case of
Ireland ?—( Hear, hear.) Why depart from a rule in their
case which lone experience had taught us to be the Wisest one
in the case of all other people, viz., to trust to every man the
guardianship of his own concerns, because his interest in
those concerns is closer and more potent than any other man's.
We now come to the Right Hon. Baronet's reasons, or rather
reason, for it is but one :—" I believe," says the Right Hon.
. Gentleman, " that the existence of Municipal Corporations,
which admit all sects and denominations as members, to be
fatal to the existence of the Irish Church. Irish Corpora-
tions have hitherto been exclusive and Protestant—if you
allow them to be open to all, you will destroy the Protestant
Establishment-4" Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—and
I therefore call upon the House of Commons, without fur-
ther argument, to refuse to the Irish people- Municipal
Government."—( Hear, hear.) It is evident that in England
and Scotland we have found that, for the.good government of
the country, these Municipal Governments were needed—
needed, be it remembered, in consequence of circumstances
common to Great Britain and to Ireland. Therefore, for the,
really good government of Ireland, the same machinery is re-
quisite; but it seems there is something in Ireland of far more
import than good government, and that thing thus exalted
above all that we have hitherto thought of paramount import.
ance, is the existence of an exclusive monopoly corporation,
called tho Protestant' Church Establishment of Ireland.
The assertion of the Right Honourable Gentleman was that
the Municipal Corporations would prove fatal to the Esta-
blished Church. Now what was, and• is intended by this
statement? What is its precise signification? Does it mean
what the words really import—(Hear, hear,)—that the religion
of the Irish Established Church would be in danger ?—( Hear,
hear.)—or that the Church, namely, 'the congregations, would
come to harm in consequence of good municipalinstitutions?
—( Cheers.) Suppose we take the first hypothesis. Sup-
pose we inquire into the assertion, that the religion would be
in danger. My first question is why would it be in danger 7 I can
find but one answer to this question, the clergy would be unpaid.
The corporations, it is said, would lead, in some way not spe-
cified, to the non-payment in any shape by the State of the
Protestant clergy ; and thereupon (thus I suppose the argu-
ment was) the parsons would cease to preach, and the people
cease to believe. Now, there was some strange things sug-
gested by this train of reasoning. First, it is assumed, that
Protestant parsons will not preach without State pay.--( Hear,
hear, hear.) Next, it is assumed, that Protestant congrega-
tions will lose their religion, if parsons, not having State
pay, desert them ; and thus religion is made dependent upon
money and nothing else. I feel a great difficulty in assenting
to this statement. I thought that Protestants were accustomed
to think their religion the true one—( Hear, hear)—one
which had in its time been opposed to a powerful State
Church, and had in many parts of the werld, by its own
inherent truth, conquered its opponents ; but here we see the
possessors of this religion, which is said to be based CB the
right of private judgment, and self-supporting truth, ope.nlY
avowing that Protestantism will die out if not fed like a
pauper by the State.—( Hear, hear.) It should, moreover,
be recollected that the Catholic religion has in Ireland no
State pay; it is, nevertheless, believed that, although wholly
voluntary and unpaid, it will be too strong for Protestantism,
if they are both left to depend upon their own unaided
strength and truth. This speaks not well for the faith of those
who use the argument. They must have but a
,poor opinion
of the force of truth—or they must believe that they ought to
doubt their own faith. But it may be said that lam not put-
ting the right case—that it is not the religion of the congre-
gations that is in danger, but the congregations themselves.
(Hear.) The dread is not that the people are likely to lose their
faith, but that they .will lose their lives. Can anything be
so wild, so outrageous, so thoroughly contemptible as such an
argument ; because you allow Irish to regulate the lighting,
watching, and paving of the towns, to determine how the rub-
bish shall be carried away,—(Hear, and laughter,)—how the
inhabitant shall be guarded against, and so on, the Catholics
will incontinently proceed to cut the throats of the Protest-
ants. Such and no other is the argument of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, if this hypothesis be the correct one. (Cheers.)
I may here be permitted to remark that the Church, in this
case, is in as great danger as it can be—a danger not to be in-
creased by any change in the municipal corporations of Ireland.
The majority of the people at this moment object to pay the
State Cnurch parsons from whom the claim spiritual benefit.
The question is wholly unconnected with, and independent of,
the question of municipal government—deny or grant the re-
form in the Corporations, and the question respecting the
State Church must again occur, and must be settled.—( Hear.)
You do not hasten, you do not retard, the fate of the State
Church Establishment by anything you do in the present mat-
ter.—( Hear.) The fate of the compulsory principle is really
settled, the doom of forced payments is sealed. Da what you
will—insult, injure, thwart the wish of the people in this
matter, as much as you may—the great question of religious
freedom will haunt you night and day. In Evltinde in Ire-
land, in Scotland, the same question is mooted, and your
paltry opposition to the present Bill will in no way influence
the fate of that important question. It may be thought shrewd
policy to bind the two questions together ; but to me it ap-
pears that a more fatal course for the very interests which you
seek to defend, could not have been suggested. You here
plainly tell the Irish people that the existence of the State
Church Establishment is incompatible with good government;
aed you bring this question at once, in all its nakedness, be-
fore ,the people. Oh, Sir, this is wise policy.--this is ex-
cellent statesmanship—and be it remembered that it has re-
ceived the sanction of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Tamworth.—(Loud cheers.) The truth upon this
matter has at length been openly told to the Irish people and
the Tory party—and the Right Hon. Gentleman in England
is now allied to • the bigot Orangemen of Ireland.—( Hear,
hear.) There can be no further disguise in the ,matterbee-
(Cheers.) The people of Ireland now know that from the
Right Hon. Gentleman they need expect no hope of peace ;
and they must bear steadily in mind that persecution will follow
his dominion in Ireland. He has thrown off the mask.-
(Cheers.) He is a mere tool of the Orange •party.--4lte
lievred cheering.) He shouts as they shout—( Hear, hear)---
and to obtain their support he is now fast sworn to uphold, in
all her rampant prodigality of mischief, the harlot Church Es-
tablishment of Ireland.,( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I
cannot leave this part of the question without congratulating
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland upon
the part he has played in this great matter. Some men,
it is said, like mischief for mischief's sake; but he, lam
sure, is far too devout to desire, and far too shrewd to
be content with mere mischief as his sole reward. Yet
am I puzzled to discover what other object he could pos-
sibly have in view, when he conceived his argumentation
in opposition to the present measure, and successfully contrived
to add another element of discord to the already too turbulent
compound of Irish politics. The Right Hon. Member for
Tamworth contented himself with stirring up to the utmost of
his ability religious strife in Ireland. The Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Cumberland endeavours, according to the measure of
big ability, to set the poor in hostility to the rich.—( Cheers. )
The one gentleman made the question to depend upon secta-
diff,2rences ; the other, on the distinction between rich
and poor. Ireland cannot have a good Government, says one.
because the majority are Catholics.—( Hear, hear.) Ireland
cannot have a good Government, says the other, because the
Catholics are poor. Oae bands the Protestant against the
Catholic—the other incites the poor against the rich. For
just in the same way that the Rig lit lion. Member fur Tam-
worth has endeavoured to show that good Government and the
Protestant religion cannot co-exist in Ireland, so does the
Right fi"n. Member for Cumberland seek to prove that pro-
perty and good Government must also be sworn enemies. I
cannot but admire the benignant inspiration, in obedience
to which they both have laboured on this memorable oc-
casion-4 Hear, hear, hear.) There is one argument on this
subject, however, which deserves some consideration. It runs
through the speeches of most of those who oppose the present
measure, is constantly influencing opinions, though it is never
very definitely or distinctly stated.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
It is thought, that as the community is divided into two
separate, and, to a certain extent, hostile, religious sects, the
one party will always seek to oppress the other. The
majority of the people being Catholics, the moment that you
give power to tine community generally, you in reality give
it to the Catholics ; and as the rule has hitherto been for the
party in power to persecute, it is believed that now that the
Catholics are about to have power, it is about to be the tern of
the Protestants to suffer what they have so long inflicted, vies,.
great
outcry Hear, hear, hear.)—And hereupon a
outcry is raised by those who side exclusively with the
hitherto he
hitherto persecuting Protestants, and a proposal is brought
forward, how that the Protestants can no longermaintain
their former supremacy, to take power parties,frombothon. i
eaanr,d
give up for ever after the pleasures of persecution.—(Hear,
nail cheers.)—The case, then, stands thus:
t
• ..tv have been in power, and have perseen
ht
etrtiteo lairo r imt;
nil a
tt ot Itjseni
majorityajo ri-
eveludeth
power
—(Chety, and our opponents immediately co
ers. )---It is now proposedtogni
will now persecute the minority. (Hear, hear, and cheeis.)—
We should remember, in the first place, that this objection, if
admitted, is fatal to all representative government.—(Loud
cries of hear.) Somebody must govern, and the real ques-
tient at issue is, whether the majority or minorii,y shall govern,
ll:therto'in Ireland the minority have governed, and they have
persecuted. We now seek to give the power of governing
their local affairs to the people at home, and. I see no reason
to anticipate any persecution on the part of the majority,—
. ( Lend cheers.) It should always be borne in mind that the
pesition of a niinority and majority are essentially different.--
( Hear.) The mere necessity of self-defence, the desire fur
gain, induce tyranny on the part of a few possessed of
power. Now, the interests of the majority for the most part
o,incitie with the interests of the community, and being the
'artier number, fear does not drive them to harsh conduct,:
Rut let us imagine how the majority can persecute in die
case. You say they will persecute because they arc Catho•
lies—that they will persecute the Protestants. Now, I ask,
in what manlier? Have Honourable Gentlemen inquired
e hat are the powers conferred by this Act on 'city commu•
viies--really and truly, nothing Leyond the power of clean-
shin the streets, teeing them, lighting the tdwn, and watch-
ing..--(ller.) Now, is it to be believed, that a Cor-
roratiun will leave rubbish before a man's door, because be is