The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 1837.

attention to any subject must acquire, would be able to afford
very essential assistance to the Committee. If ever there
was an instance where this rnle of the House should be de-
parted from, he thought this was the very last in which it
should be so. It would be perfectly useless—he might almost
say faithless, if the name of the lion. and Learned Gentle-
man were not placed upon this Committee if, therefore, it
was the Hon. Baronet's intention to move that this question
should take precedence of the other Orders of the Day, he
(Mr. H•dl) should give him his support.
After a few words from Mr. HUME, which were not au-
dible in the gallery,
The CHANCELLOR of the Exchequer said, I have a
choice between two difficulties—one is the interruption of the
progress of the Civil List Bill, by the motion introduced by
the Honourable Member for Caithness to suspend the third
reading of the Bill, when undoubtedly, at the present period
of the year it could not be suspended but at very considerable
ieconvenienee. If, indeed, we were now on the motion for
the third reading of that Bill, there might be some reason for
taking this question of pensions first, but my Hon. Friend,
the Member for the City of London, has given a notice on the
third reading of the Civil List Bill which will give rise to a
debate ; therefore, to postpone that third reading beyond to
morrow night may amount to an undefined and inconvenient
postponement. 1 have said that lam perfectly ready to abide
the pleasure of the House upon the decision of to-morrow
night. Nobody can expect that this Committee should sit
More the holidays. If the House should decide that the
names to be proposed should be printed before voted upon, I
should be perfectly ready to give in the names. Nay, I
should be perfectly ready to give in those names to-night._
( Hear, hear, and cries of " Name, name.)" I under-
stood from gentlemen on all sides, that what they were de-
sirous of was, the being in the possession of the names twenty-
four hours.—( Cries of " No, no.") That certainly was the
suggestion.-_( No.) Gentlemen may change their minds now,
but the request I had to
,encounter originally was, that the
House ought to know the names beforehand. But I have no
difficulty in sayinr, that I am ready to give the names now, and
let us have the cLussion —(Name, name.) I wish to know
in the outset what Hon. Gentlemen would have. I understand
they wish to have notice of the names on the one hand—(No,
no)—and to have a discussion on the other, These two pro-
positions are by no means the same ; but if it be the pleasure
of the House to come to a discussion now—( Hear, hear)—and
to throw overboard the question of giving informstion as to the
names—( Hear, hear, hear)—if that be the case, unquestionably
I shall lose more time with respect to the Civil List Act by a
fruitless discussion now, than by proceeding at once to that
which the House desires; therefore I have no objection to the
Order of the Day for appointing of the Committee being read
—(Hear, hear)—but do not let it be said that I have taken
Hon. Gentlemen by surprise.—( Laughter. )
The motion for the Order of the Day for a Committee of
Supply was then withdrawn, and the Order of the Day for no-
minating the Committee on pensions was agreed to.
PENSIONS.

The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER—Now that
the Order of the Day has been read, I will proceed to the
duty of naming the Committee--( Hear, and a laugh.) I hope
that the gentleman who cheer are not among the gentlemen
that arc prepared to support the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny to-morrow; because if that motion—namely, that
every Member intending to propose the names of Members
to serve in a Select Committee shall, on the day next bef.re
such nomination of Members, place among the notices for the
day the names of tie Members intended to be proposed as
Members of the said Committee—if, I say, that motion be
rounded in reason, there would be nothing so unjust as for
me to be compelled to take the House now by surprise, when
I have proposed to give the House full information of the
names, that they may be compared with those of a former
Committee, is order that Hon. Members might. aseer-
ta;rt whether they were the names that ought to be put en
this Committee or not. The notice given by the Hon.
Member for Caithness ( Sir George Sinclair) embraced two
objects—one the inserting the name of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman the Member for Southwark, and the other
the insertion of a majority of names on the Committee of
Gentlemen who had in former times voted for an inquiry
into the pension List. I shall divide my observations in re-
spect to these two propositions. Upon the second proposi-
tion I ant happy to announce that the majority of the names
en the proposed Committee consists of gentlemen who voted
against the Goeernment on former occasions, and in favour of
inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) So far the object of the Honourable
Baronet is answered, and as far as that goes every pledge is
given of the sincerity of the Crown in carrying on the inquiry.
With respect to the second, or rather the other object, from
the statement of my Noble Friend it will be anticipated by the
House that the answer must be of a contrary description.
I will not attribute to gentlemen opposite who oppose this in-
quiry any intention that could be so disingenuous as to endea-
vour to make this inquiry in i:s progress odious, distasteful,
and hateful to the best feelings of the great mass of the come
munity, by supporting a proposition that could tend to deprive,
the country of any advantage that otherwise might accrue
from this inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) I should be very reluctant
indeed to have it imagined that I could consider the insertion of
the name of any Honourable Gentleman on this Committee
could have any such tendeney. On the contrary, I say,
boldly and unreservedly, it was my desire, my anxious desire,
that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman -( Mr. Harvey )
should be a member of this Committee ; and I feel, as my

Honourable Friend has stated, that unquestionably one who
has paid attention to the subject as be has done, and
brought the subject cinder the attention of Parliament was
a person whose name must naturally suggest itself as
one to be proposed foif this inquiry ; and any opposition
to the name of such a person would be the very circum-
stance which would deprive the inquiry and the recom-
mendation of the Committee of their force and weight.
But, Sir, what arc the regulations of this House, and what
are the orders of the House? Ia the first place, any indivi-
dual moving to appoint a Committee is required to communi-
cate with the individuals whose names he wishes to suggest
to the House. It was consequently my duty to communicate
with the Members whose names I wished to propose. It oc-
curred to me that the best course I could adopt was to.select
the identical Committee which had already tat upon the Civil
List. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Harvey)
having originally proposed to refer, by way of instruction to
that Committee, this very subject of the Pension List, it cer-
tainly did appear to me that the most obvious course for me
to take would be the re-appointment of that Committee. I
accordingly communicated with the gentlemen who served
on that Committee. On the part of several Hon. Gentlemen
sitting opposite, I found objections to become members of the
proposed Committee. They said they objected to it upon
principles. I was then driven to appoint a new Committee.
One of the first names which occurcd to me was the name
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (11r. Harvey), and I
took the liberty of addrese'ng to him a letter, which I will
now read to the House.

" Mr. Spring Rice presents his compliments to Mr. Har-
vey, and is led to trouble him with the present communica-
tion. in consequence of the motion for appointing a Committee
on pensions, which Mr. Spring Rice intends to bring on.
" From the interest which Mr. Harvey has taken in this
subject, and the attention which he has paid to it, Mr. Har-
vey's name would naturally occur to any person selecting the
members of that Committee. But Mr. Spring Rice trusts
Mr. Harvey will excuse him if, before he makes such a propo-
sition to the House, he solicits information from Mr. Harvey
on a question most essential to the future proceedings of that
Committee, if it shall be named by the House.
In the Committee of the Poor Laws, appointed last ses.
sion, Mr. Harvey communicated to the public, from day to
day, the evidence and the proceedings of the Committee, even
before they were reported to the House. Mr. Spring Rice
does not raise the question whether such a course was, in that
instance, parliamentary or convenient ; but it is evident that
where the private affairs, character, and service of individuals
may be made matters of deliberation and inquiry, that publica-
tion of such evidence in any way but in the authentic form of
a report, and of communication to the House itself, would be
unjust and inconveinent...

.." Mr. Spring Rice fully anticipates that Mr. Harvey will
concur in these opinions, from his observations respecting the
duty of such a Committee, and the mode and spirit in which
its inquiries should be directed. But, to avoid_ any difference
of opinion or miztakc hereafter, Mr. Spring Rice will be much
indebted to Mr. Harvey, if he will do him the favour of let-
ting him know whether, if appointed a member of the Com-
mittee, he adopts, and will assist the Committee in adhering
to the principles laid down in this note.
" Downing-street, Thursday evening."
—( Ilear, hear.) I put it to the House whether there is any
word in this note that betokens any want of courtesy or re-
spect to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ?—( Low! cheers.)
On the contrary, it will be seen that I endeavoured anxiously
to save paining any self-love or affection far by-gone opinions
which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman might have enter-
tained. I did not raise the question whether the course adopted
by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was Parliamentary or
convenient; but I said to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
that in the peculiarity of this case, and in the particular cir-
cumstances under which the Committee is moved, and under
the declarations which the House itself had made in reference
to proceedings of Committees, you can have No hesitation in
giving me the assurance which I have taken the liberty of
asking. And what was that assurance? Let this be dis-
tinctly understood, for I know it has been said cut of doors
that it was presumption on my part to ask any Hon. Member
for such an assurance. What, then, did I ask ? Why, I
asked additional security that the orders of the HOMO of Com-
mons should be strictly adhered to. If I undertook the re-
sponsibility of suggesting the names of this Comn.ittee, I was
bound also to take upon me the accompanying responsibility
of seeing that the Orders of the House should be carried into
full and effectual operation. I will now read the answer of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, just premising that when
he
acid
e that ought t that this
to be carriediswasane o
enquiry of
with faithfulness,ofaparticul
particular character, and
one
the parties interested as to the public, I really did thinkas
well
that
there could not be a doubt as to the answer the lion. and
Learned Gentleman would give. This.was the answer :
" Strand, Friday Morning.
" Sir,—Regarding, as I do, the right of publishing the
proceedings before Parliamentary Committees to be of the
greatest public importance, I cannut consent to place its exer-
cise in abeyance, as the condition of being placed upon a Com-
mittee. I readily acknowledge that circumstances may arise
which would render such publication not only undesirable, but
extremely unjust towards individuals ; but I must claim the
unfettered exercise of my own judgment in all cases—(Hear)
—arid which, I may Le allowed to remark, is not likely, I
trust, to be in a direction lets just or considerate than that of
persons equally disinterested as myself.
" D. W. HARVEY."
Now, let me bring the House to a consideration of this letter
iwile:, ;:umpa,,A with their own resolution. The rcgolutiun
entered into on the 26th of April was this:—" That according
to the undoubted privileges of this House, and from the due