The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-07 00:00:00

instance, God knows, I cannot by possibility impute the
slightest intention ; but if through inadvertency—if
through indiscretion—if even through an excess of feel.
ings of a kindly nature and amiable disposition—such in-
discretion shall have been practised as, if not corrected,
and not stayed in the outset, may lead to great and fatal
abuses--then, above all things, the more it appears that
there has has been nothing, but mere indiscretion in fault
the more does it become your Lordships to apply the re-
medy by the application of some principle which the
exigency of the case may seem to require. My Lords,
with these observations, and upon these grounds, I have
deemed it my duty to press on your Lordships the
adoption of these resolutions, which I have read before,
and which, exhausted as I am, I have no desire to trouble
your Lordships with reading again, but which I submit to
the attention and calm consideration of your Lordships,
and upon which, on the part of the Constitution and the
administration of justice, I implore your Lordships this
night to pronounce your decision,—(The Noble and
Learned Lord resumed his seat amid great cheering. )
The Marquis of NO R ANB Y felt that the way in
which he had been attacked, and the desire he felt of
placing his actions in a proper light before their Lordships,
entitled him to some claim on their Lordships' attention.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord, in
the commencement of his speech, stated the manner in
which he meant to treat the subject; but having listened
to the manner in which the Noble and Learned Lord had
treated the subject, he could not help alluding, before going
into those numerous details and different portions of his con-
duct, to the grounds on which he was standing in defence of
himself, and the manner in which the Noble and Learned
had on this occasion pressed his motion before their
Lordships. When the Committee, he could hardly say
made its Report, but when it reported the evidence, the
Noble and Learned Lord gave notice of his intention to
bring a certain portion of the evidence before their Lord-
ships. On that occasion it was stated by many Noble
Lords that the interval for the consideration of the subject
would be too short. But the Noble and Learned Lord,
on that same occasion, distinctly stated that there would
be nothing criminatory against him (the Marquis of Nor-
manby). On a subsequent occasion, when an appeal was
made to allow a fair time for the consideration of the evi-
dence, the Noble and Learned Lord had stated it might
be brought within very narrow limits. Again, the Noble
and Learned Lord on Tuesday stated the resolu-
tions he should move were such as that their Lord.
ships might pronounce an opinion upon without
having read one word of the evidence. How far any one
having heard the able and elaborate speech of the Noble
and Learned Lord, could come to a conscientious vote this
night, without reading through portions of the evidence to
which the Noble and Learned Lord directed their Lord-
ships' attention, while it would be necessary for every one
who felt bound to pronounce an opinion on the conduct of
others, spreading over a large space of time, no one of the
topics being of a recent date—how far their Lordships
would conceive it would be possible for any body to do
justice to those resolutions, without baying read one word
of the evidence, he would leave for their Lordships, when
they came to give their vote, to decide. The Noble Duko
opposite had told the Noble and Learned Lord that the
time was too short—an attempt was made to per-
suade him againgst bringing it on by the Noble Chairman
of the Committee, and many other of their Lordships
stated how impossible it was for them to come to a decision
upon so short a notice with credit to themselves or satisfac-
tion to the country. When that appeal was made, the
Noble and Learned Lord stated that on Thursday last the
resolution should be laid before their Lordships, but Thurs-
day came and no resolutions were presented, and it was not
until Friday that their Lordships were put in possession of
them. He (the Marquis of Normanby) had stated the
other night that he would not appeal to the Noble Lord to
put off the motion, and as he found how unwilling the No.
ble and Learned Lord was to listen to the appeal of others,
he (the Marquis of Normanby did not think it would have
become him to make any request on the subject. However
it was for their Lordships to decide, and he
should bow to their Lordship's decision, whatever
it might be ; but he (the Marquis of Normanby) felt the
immense disadvantage of having to go through a subject
of this nature after the Noble and Learned Lord, posess-
ing, as he did, such unrivalled powers of fixing their
Lordships' attention. Now with regard to these Resolu-
tions. There were those who wculd come after him who
would be better able to express opinions as to the objec.
tionable nature of many of those resolutions. With re-
spect to the first resolution, however, he felt the subject
to which that related was a fit matter for a Bill, and not
a resolution. Far be it from him to compete with the
Noble Lord as to the manner of dealing with this
subject, but he would just mention, as show-
ing another disadvantage under which he laboured,
that this was the first time he had heard an authentic ver-
sion of the first resolution of the Noble and Learned Lord.
Now, with reference to the first resolution, the Noble and
Learned Lord had not adverted to an alteration recently
made in the law, so that there was not that delay now which
had formerly been complained of. But he would hurry on
as quickly as he could to those resolutions that per-
sonally affected himself. But before coming to them,
he could not help noticing, with great regret and
indignation, the mode in which the Noble and
Learned Lord had spoken of ono of the greatest
ornaments of the Irish bar—Sir Michael O'Loghlin.
He had been represented by the Noble and Learned Lord
as a person who would frame instructions for the purpose
of serving a particular party ; and then Sir M. O'Loghlen
had been contemptuously compared with another Learned
Judge. It was under these circumstances that he (the
Marquis of Normanby) would say he felt himself warranted
in saying (although comparisons of learned persons in
judicial situations might be very invidious), that if this
question were discussed in any assembly on the re-
lative merits and professional station of Sir Michael
O'Loghlen and Chief Justice Doherty, he would
not say what he felt would be the result ; but
at any rate he would say he felt the comparison be-
tween those two learned persons would not be such as to
justify the Noble and Learned Lord in speaking in the
disparaging manner he had of a Judge who, in every situa-
tion he had filled—as Sergeant, as Law Officer, and then
as Baron of the Exchequer—in every one of these situa-
tions he had succeeded in uniting a feeling cf admiration
and respect of all political parties, beyond any other per-
son who had sat on the Bench in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
Having said so much of Sir Michael O'Loghlen, he could
hardly think the Noble and Learned Lord meant
to allude to Mr. Cahill as the only person
who have given testimony of the successful working of that
system which had originated with Sir Michael O'Loghlen,
he could hardly say originated, because the present Justice
Perrin had given similar directions. The Noble Marquis
here read extracts from the evidence of Mr. Tickell and
Mr. Kemmis, to show that if the lists were properly chosen,
the new Jury Act under the system of challenge would
work well. It would be a great advantage for the people
to feel that when convictions did take place no
injustice was done, but that there was a fair
tribunal to which they could appeal, and the
prejudice which was spoken of by many witnesses as
having prevailed against the administration of justice
in consequence of Juries being packed no longer pre-
vailed. —( Hear, hear.) With respect to the 3d resolu-
tion, the Noble and Learned Lord said the instructions
ought to be the same on every circuit. He agreed with
the Noble and Learned Lord upon that ; but if the Noble
and Learned Lord knew more of the local circumstances
of Ireland, he would feel the instructions to a Crown Soli-
citor on one circuit might not apply to another, and there-
fore he could not help saying with respect to those two
resolutions, that their Lordships ought not to interfere
with the instructions to a Crown Solicitor as to
what persons should be challenged. It was not
necessary for him (the Marquis of Normanby) to dwell at
any length upon the subject of challenging jurors, because
there were those present who would be much better able
to deal with questions of a technical nature than he could.
Now the practice in Ireland was in almost all cases to con-
sult the Judges ; but he (the Marquis of Normanby) could
not consent to a resolution which prescribed it as the duty
of the person exercising the prerogative of the Crown to
consult the Judges. He thought that to be at variance
with constitutional principle. The Noble and Learned
Lord stated generally that the Judges were treated with
disrespect. He most distinctly denied that, or that there
was any feeling of this kind, with one exception. He
found no such feeling in the evidence of Chief Justice
Bush—( Hear, hear)—and he was the only one examined
on the Committee, with the exception of Mr. Justice Per-
rin. His Noble Friend alluded to Mr. Justice Moore,
who had been the longest on the bench of any person in
the United Kingdom, and who maintained the highest
judicial character, with whom he never nad the slightest
difference as to the nature of the relation which ought to
exist between the head of the Executive and the Judges.
The question rested entirely between him and Chief Justice
Doherty. With regard to the case of Gallen, it was not to be
expected that he should go through the different parts of
the evidence. He had the notes of Chief Justice Doherty
and the recommendation of Mr. Sergeant O'Loghlen.
On these he came to a decision, the justice and propriety
of which he would maintain to the remission of the sen-
tence. The whole of the question between the Execu-
tive Government and Chief Justice Doherty was whether
the Chief Justice was or was not justified in retaining the
copy, not only of the memorial sent to him by mistake,
but the Lord Lieutenant's minute also. These had always
been held to be confidential communications which ought
not to be retained without permission ; but the expressions
of Chief Justice Doherty were such that he was justified in
resenting them. With regard to the decision in this case
it was a very painful one. He felt the inconvenience
to which it would lead, and that under the circum-
stances he could not communicate in that confidence with
Chief Justice Doherty which ought to subside between the
Lord Lieutenant and the Judge of the land. The Noble
Lord alluded to the case of Reynolds. That case occurred
the year before, and had nothing to do with the case which
lie referred to Chief Justice Doherty. It was on his re.
port that the Master of the Rolls, Baron Richards, enter-
tained very considerable doubts as to the charge of that
Learned Judge, both to the facts having been stated cor-
rectly to the jury, and also as to his view of the law of the
case, and that he thought the punishment disproportionate
to the offence. He ought to apologise to their Lordships
that in the multitudinous mass of papers which he had had
to look over since last Friday, he had not made himself suf-
ficiently master of Sly's case. He certainly bad no desire
to avoid any explanation'. With reference to the opinion
which he entertained that Chief Justice Doherty had
acted contrary to the usual course in retaining the minutes
of the Lord Lieutenant, he would refer to a communication
from Sir W. Smith, which was of precisely the same nature.
Chief Justice Doherty stated that there was no instance of
sentences having been commuted by the law officers
without reference to the Judges. Now there happened
to be several cases during the time Chief Justine Doherty
was Solicitor-General—one of which Judge Moore dis-
tinctly recollected, that of Patrick Kelly, who was found
guilty of manslaughter at Clonmel, who was discharged
ssithout any communication with him (Lord N.) There
was also the case of Leary which occurred when Mr,
Doherty and Mr. Joy were the law officers of the Crown.
who advised against the opinion of the Judges, and a com-
mutation took place, the person who was sentenced inter-
ference be
executed having been transported. Here was an
of the law officers with the Judges. He now came,
to tne resolution which confined itself merely to that one