The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-26 00:00:00

_-.....--.
JUDGES' LODGINGS BILL. Act was passed for the establishment of Joint-stock- Banks
On the motion of the A i'TOli NE Y-G ENE RA L, the there, and that led to the establishment of the Provincial
Judges' Lodgings Bill was read a third tittle and passed. Bank of !relent!. With that establishment it was his', for-
rafter a few observations frem Lord G. Sons rset. tune to be connected for many years. Tit, Beillseat Ins•
TURNPIKE TOLLS. land had not taken a step for the es!ablishrnetit or braiich,s
Mr. F. MA tat newest the third reading of the Turn. in the provinces. The rule of the Bank of Ireland watt that
pike Tolls all. it would only discount paper in Dublin, and the. payment
Lord G. SOMERSET objected to the third reading of postages and other charges raised the accommosfoion
of the 1311, as its effscts would be to repeat' the ea, ts.e in in the provinces to so high a rate that it necessarily led to
the General Turnpike Act, allowing extra chargea to be tFie establishment of rival banks. Under the provieiatia of
made for oyerweieht. ' the law which was then passed the Provincial Batik arag
Captain PECHELL had introduced the Bill because established. That was followed by ssveral other backs which
it had been called for by the trustees of many turnpike we: e ali carrying 0., business in Jr land. Under the law as It
roar's.
stood, there was a power of having three different descrip-
Sir J. GRAHAM would oppose the third reading of tons of bankt, if not four; first, there Was the Bank of
the present Bill, and divide the House upon it, unless h Ireland, which, under the law as it at present- .stood,
heard some strong reason for it. He thought that nothing being a bank of issue and deposit, had the power of
was more feir than that the greater weights should hear the carrying on its establishment throughout the country,
greater tolls. He could not see why the General Turn. and baying its notes on demand in specie where they were
pike Act for England should be altered to suit particular made payable. The next sort of bank was a Joiet-
distriete.
stock B .nk, not of issue but of deposit, and for other
Mr. F. MAULE did not see anything objectionable •in banking purposes. These banks were carried on in Dub-
the Bill.
and within a circuit of fifty miles. They had the power
Sir THOS. FR E EMANTL E objected to the Bill. by law of carrying on all banking operations, save and exec6pt
Capt. PECHEL L hoped the House would not be the issue of notes. They might accept or draw bills
misled by the Right Hon. Baronet. The present Bill was to any amount, but they could not be banks of issue in the
not intended to repeal the former Act, but merely to ex. ,netropnlitan circle. The next class were issuing banks;
tend its provisions.
being Joint-stock Banks, consisting of more than six
Lord GR.ANVILLE SOMERSET rose to order. partners, and carrying on business, not in Dublin
The Gallant Officer had replied to the observations or within the metropolitan circle of fifty-eight miles,
which he had made, and he now was rising to reply to those hut in the provinces of Ireland. They had the priri
of ti.e Right Hon. Baronet. He was clearly out of order. lege of transacting all species of banking business
Mr. AGLIONBY agreed that the Gallant Officer was unreservedly without the liniit of that circle, and
out of order, but as he could not call the attention of the they had not exactly by law, but by guff ranee.
House to the subject, he (Mr. Agliorby) would reply to the power of having a house of business in Dublin and
the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet. By the Act retiring their notes in Dublin. There was a fourth class
of the 4th Geo. IV., c. 93, it was enacted that the Corn- which it was almost unnecessary to mention. He meant
missionsrs of Turnpikes, within ten miles of the metropolis, private banks consisting of less than six parteers,
should have the power of reducing tolls levied !by weight. who had the power of doing business whether within Du
The present Bill only extended those provisions to the tin or without the circle ;of these there were very few, and
other parts of the kingdom; and he would ask the par- none without the circle, while in Dublin there were but
ties opposing this 1311, why that which was lase three or four, Latotiches. gill's, and one or two others.
within tea miles of the metropolis, should not be extenaeo He had now laid before the, House the exact state of the
to the other trusts'of the kingdom? There was no oppo.. law as affected these banks : ;tie practice under that law
sition to this clause in the Act of the 411 Geo. IV., when required further explanation. The Bank of Ireland would
it was first introduced, and he submitted that such being ehitfle occupy the attention of the Houma
e to-night t it had
the case, arguments much more cogent than those which me generel office in Dublin. and twent'' -t wo agencies
had been adduced were requited to induce the House to ,hroughout the country; there was the H'ibssrnian Joins.
refuse its assent to this Bill. It was extraordinary if all stock Bank, not of issue, in the metropolis ; theae was the
these matters had undergone a full discussion at the Royal Bank of Ireland, not of issue, within the mett-PPell'
time of the passing of the General Turnpike Act; there were the private banks ; the Provincial Bank, w'is'h `35
that in the Session immediately following the House should hranches: the National Bank, with 36 branches; the Belfaat
have eonsented to make the material alteration which was Banking Company, with 20 branches ; the Ulster Banking
introduced into those laws by the Act of the 4th Geo. IV. Company, with nine branches; and the Northern Banking
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House Company, with 10 branches. The House would observe,
divided, when there appeared— that the practical banking business of Ireland was -now
For the third reading of the Bill 54 really carried on by the Bank of Ireland in the metropolis,
Against it
29 and with branches: and the Joint-stock Banks, haying
Majority in favour of the Bill_ —25 branches in number from 10 to 20. Now, this State of
The all was thou read a third time and passed. things had gone on fur the last five or six yea"
Sir H. II A RDINGE. seeing the Hen. Member for The Provincial Bank was certainly of earlier esta-
Windsor in his place. wished to ask that Hen. Gentleman, blish men t, but this state of things had only been in
oho had acted as Chairman of a Committee which had full operation during the period he bad stated•
est for the purpose of taking into consideration the subject That which rendered the interposition of Parliament new
of fees, and which hid recommended the abolition of all necessary was the peculiar state of the law as regarded the otUciel fses, what steps had been taken by the G ivernment Bents of Ireland. By the engagements which had been
for carrying the recommendations of that Committee into entered into between the public and the Bank of Ireland
effect ?
the existing exclusive privileges of the Bank of Ireland--- Mt. R GORDON apprehended that the GOvernment denominate'd a,, monopoly," a word which had undoubtedly
had ca' ied the recommendations of the Committee into created considerable prejudice on the subject, a prejudice
effect, as far as regarded the departments of Customs, Ex- which he believed, on full and fair explanation, would be
vise, and Seamus, and in all departmetits of the Civil removed—the Bank of Ireland had been entitled to
Service. With respect to the Ordnance and the Array, the continuance of the exclusive privileges which
although the Government approved of the reeommenda- they now possessed until the first of January, 1840,
Beene of the Committee, he believed they had not yet been when, upon notice given to them and upon the
enabled to carry them into effect eayment to them of the debt which the public owed then',
BANK OF IRELAND. their exclusive privileges altogether ceased, and the trade
The CHANCELLOR of tht EXCHEQUER, in in banking was left entirely free. The proposition which
moving that the Oozier of the Day for the House re- lie was about to make, was, that these exclusive privileges
solving itself into Committee on the subject of the Bank of should be for a certain time continued to them on some
Ireland be now read. wishe-h to ask the Hon. Gentleman to specified condition. The proposition that would be mode
withdraw the motion of which he had given notice, respecting ay the Hon. Member for Kilkenny was, that it would be
en instruction to the Committee. At-cording to the strict expedient that these exclusive privileges should altogether
rules of the Hcua', those matters only could be moved cease and determine, and that the trade in banking, bath
as an instruction to the Committee, which the r3ommittee as affected the issue of notes and all other operations of
itself was incompetent to perform without such instruc- banking business should be perfectly free in Dublin, as it
tion, but it was perfectly competent to the lion. Gentleman to was in Edinburgh—that in fact the most unfettered free-
/neve in Committee that of which he had given notice as dom of trade should be applied to this branch of it. He
an instruction. lie did not wish to throw the slightest (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) admitted that he was
obstruction in the way of the Hon. Gentleman, but he bound to prove the necessity of the restriction when pro-
thought moving this instruction might be establishing an petting it, and he thought he should be able to prove this
inecnvenient precedent, and would not be in strict accord- satisfactorily. He denied altogether the applicability. of
ante with the regulations of the House. the general principle of freedom of trade to the question
Mr. HUM E would agree to the proposition of the of the making of money. He denied that it could be
Right Hon. Gentleman. All he wanted was to have an said for the purposes of freedom of trade there ought
opportunity of moving his resolution, which he would quite to be an unlimited power of issuing promissory notes•
as willingly do in Committee as before. Then, if it was not to be discussed as a question
The.SPE A KER thought it would be more in order to of freedom of trade, let it be discussed as a matter of ea-
move the resolution in Committee than by way of in pediency. He was not prepared to say, that either ill,
struction.
Englandor Ireland the public interests were tube advanced
Mr. WA RBURTON thought a question might be by an unrestrained competition of issue banks, and If
raised as to the propriety of legislating on the subject at they had at the present moment a new country to deal
all during the present Session, and that it might be expe- with, io which interests under the existing laws were not
client to raise this question before going into Committee. created, which might be difficult, if not inexpedient and
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said impossible, to disturb—he did say, that with the ijAht
,1.,
that such a resolution could be quite as well considered in that had been thrown on this subject, they wows.-
Committee,
not, at the present moment, sanction a propositiort
The House then resolved itself into Committee on the of issue banks, but the principle to which they would .
Acts relating to the Bunk of Ireland, adhere would be one central issue that had :
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if the whole command of the
_public currency—
the Hon. Gentleman wished to bring forward his resolu. He was not stating this as a matter of
principle, but be wa:, tion in the first instance he had no objection to such a mode only laying down the propositions, for the purpose of seeing,
of proceeding.
which proposition was the best, his or that of his Hon•
Mr. H U aJE rose, but was interrupted by Friend the Member for Kilkenny.. He knew that his Hon.
Sir R. PEEL, who was of opinion that the lion. Gen- Friend relied upon the fact that in Scotland the freedom
tleman could not be strictly in order in bringing forward of issue existed, but he doubted extremely whether there
the resolution now. was any analogy whatever between the state 'of banking
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was irs Scotland and that of Ireland. He was certain
perfectly willing to give the Hon. Gentleman a pre- that any one conversant with the subject —untie
cedence. know that no two systems were so different. Look
Sir R. PEEL thought
it was desirable to adhere strictly at the immense capital engaged in the banking
to the forms of the House. Suppose the Han. Gentleman trade in Scotland ; the funded property at the
to succeed in carrying his resolution, then he would have command of the Scotch, and available at all
to bring in a Bill, and carry it through the House, to times, exceeded, in a tenfold degree, the whole capital
carry that resolution into effect. engaged in the banking business of Ireland. That was.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that such a course would not ' a just and legitimate cause of the distinction between
be neceseary, because the law authorising the existence of the two countries. He denied that the excess of
the B ink of Ireland would expire, and therefore there capital in Scotland was attributable to the system adopted
would be no necessity to introduce a. Bill on the subject, there. Other circumstances were to be considered, Such ,
even should the Hon. Member for Kilkenny succeed. was the confidence in the paper circulation of Scotland,
Mr. (LAY thought it would be more convenient for that, without undervaluing the resources that country might
the Hon. Gentleman to proceed. possess in money, to answer its promissory notes—that he
Sir R. PEEL suggested that the Right Hon. Gentle- would take upon himself to say, comparing the circulation
inan should he permitted to bring in hie Bill, and that it of paper in the two countries, gold was required in a ten'
would be competent to the Hon. Gentleman to move in fold degree in Ireland to what it was in Scotland
the Committee on the Bill. Without going into the causes of that, but looking at the.
Mr. HUME was only desirous that the subject should facts, there had been such a succession of rushes upon the
be fully discussed—as to the manner of the discussion he Banks of Ireland for the last ten years, which hid rendered
.vas in the hands of the House. He would only say, that it necessary that there should be a supply of
the present course had been adopted after consultation with country, ten times greater than the demand for specie all
the Right Hon. Gentleman and with the Speaker, that time for Scotland. If, therefore, it was found ti'at
The CHANCELLORof the EXCHEQUER said he the capital possessed by the banks of Scotland exceeded
was about to introduce to the attention of the House a sub. in an infinite degree the capital possessed by all the Henke
p the et which he had hoped was likely to be discussed exclu. of Ireland, and if they found on gold for that
other hand ,
sively upon its own merits; and undoubtedly if any other that the state of Ireland was such as to ex-
subject was introduced it would not only be irrelevant, hut pose the Bank of Ireland to eager and effec
withdraw their minds from the particular preposition which it tive demands for gold, which were not only incon
was their duty now to consider. The subject was one of venient to them
but to the country, injuring its cir-
the most important that could be presented to Parliament, culation in no ordinary degree, it was vain to tell
important to the best interests of Ireland, but no less im him that the case of Scotland governed the cave
Anent to the best interests of England also, because it of Ireland. The fact was, that the case of Ireland must
lid not rest merely upon theory, but upon the experience be allowed to rest upon its own merits. He hod stated
of last year. Every system which had a tendency to that the banking system of Ireland had been of late
check circulation there, re-acted immediately on this years conducted through the agency of Joint-stock Banks_
country, and he might appeal to every man, more and the Bank of Ireland. He wished to call the attention if
especially to any Gentleman who was connected the House to this feet. He did not call upon them to
with the Bank of England, whether in times of dif- vote for his resolution upon any arguments of his own, but
ticulty and pressure upon their establishment, some of he called upon them to do so upon the evidence which he
the greatest difficulties with which they had had was now about to tender. The House would, doubtless,
to contend, and those which caused them the greatest recollect that a Committee had been appointed for two
labour to surmouct, were difficulties connected with the successive years upon the affairs of Joint-stock Banks
circulation of Ireland, and when it was considered there in Ireland. In 1837, the subject was before a Com-
was in Ireland a large circulation, not only similar in many mittee, and in 1838, that examination was resumed. No,
respects to the circulation, of Great Britain, but also that there opposition whatever was made to the production of
was a large circulation of small notes payable on demand the witnesses before that Committee, and there-
et all places of issue, he thought it was obvious on the gee. fore no impediment was thrown in the way
of an
neral principle of the case, as it was also obvious from investigation into
the affairs of the Banks of Ireland. The
the experience of the last years, that if the system of case was fully gone into, and that evidence was tendered
banking introduced into that country tended to dis. upon which he was now about to rely. The parties exae ,
turb the public credit and produce a demand for gold, mined before that Committee were parties connected with
the difficulty was not limited to Ireland, but showed the Banks of Ireland. The Governor of the Bank
itself in the demand for gold on the Bank of England. of Ireland, and Mr, Needham, connected with the Royal
Such had been the result of the two or three late runs or Bank were next examined, as were Mr. Mahoney. and
panics. He wished to press this on the attention of Ho- Mr. Finn, a most intelligent man of business, who was
nourable Members, not that they would be indifferent connected with some of the private banks of Ireland•
to this question because it was an Irish question ; on There were also two gentlemen of the name of Gallagher!
the contrary, he should entreat their attention on Irish and Dunn, examined at great length, and several
grounds also, but he should be prepared to prove other witnesses were also produced. When the evidence
that in the settlement of the Irish question the best in- was completed there was no suggestion made as to
andt e
'erests of England were also involved.-_( Hear.) It did necesssity of taking further evidence
_upon the subject._
not necessarily follow that he was thereby assuming that it therefore he was entitled to say, that the evidence sana! 1a
was the interest of England or Ireland to'acquiesce in his a complete state. Ia order to make this evidence into-
proposal, but he did say that in the proper settlement of ligibte he would take the liberty of recurring to.
rvimisue
the question, the interests of both countries were involved, circumstances that occurred in 1835 and 1836, nthe Ireland,
He would now proceed very shortly and simply to lay neither the complaints broaght against the Bank of
before the House the history of the Bank of Ireland, and nor his arguments in answer to those complaints, would
yin 1., eland
the state of the banking establishments in that country, intelligible. In the year 1836, or towardsn the-wclose of
which it was necessary Hon. Members should be ac- that year, a very severe pressure was the bankingou id b*
quaintest with, before they proceeded to give a vote on interests in bo.h countries, and the dfeige°ult
the subject. The situation of the Bank of Ireland was in preceded the pressure on the Bank of England. . At that
some respects peculiar, It was established about 1782, period he did not think the conduct
.of the Bank of Ireland
les. When the Bank
and at that period it was looked to by the great was based on prudent banking P
mass of the people of Ireland with considerable of En land raised its rate of principles. When
Tuhnedyoudbidtendoly
do::
anxiety, as being an establishment that was likely every proper principle, theought to , _
),
ntkh the fl3an Irelando England
to contribute to the improvement of that country. raised their interest at sametheafte
idmeand, undoubtedly, as far as thatr
He would not trouble the House with the legislation which so for a considerabledti
1 was not there to contend that the's
took place on the subject between the years 1782 and taken the step they
1797. but it was a remarkable circumstance in approach- step was concerned, he
ing this subject that the suspension of cash payments in conduct bed been prudent. He thought it was the duty et
Ireland was neither required by the transactions of the the Bank of Ireland,. as it‘. was the duty of every well ma-
Bank of Ireland—was not asked for in reference to naged bank in theissueoi paper, to keep the most vigilant_
any Irish interest whatever, but that on the con- eye upon the whole of the transactions of the Bank of
trary the Bank of Ireland, at that period, was England—upon
thequarterlyexr7huarnugseosf,
athnedirtoasrseegtsuiand
in a position perfectly stable_perfectly competent to liabilities-4P" the state of the specie in their coffer.s--
ate
carry on its own transactions; and it was only in upon the statepd. of the foreign
. lugs upon all those transactions. He admit;
the Bank of Ireland had not been governed upon tilos
consequence of the derangement of the banking sYs-
tent here, which led to the hank restrictions of 1797. ttencieirt
and rendered it necessary in Ireland at that time. So that, priciples, but it became very material for him, riot only as
undoubtedly, whatever transactions occurred between 1797, a matter of fact to state this, but to make use of it after-
however Gentle- wards for the accusations
and the restriction of cash payments, and . • purpose of repelling many of the
Bank
men might consider that that suspension of cant payments and of answering many of time arguments against the .
was prejudicial to the public interests, the Bank of Ireland of Ireland: because the objection raised to the procee•
was not responsible for.d
transactions, The restriction ings of the Bank of Ireland on the part of a those ho
these
misconduct or imprudence of wished to end its exclusive issue, was not that
Was not in consequence of any
of put an to
whole
theirs—it was the necessary consequence the measures they gave accommodation to excess, but that the
that were adopted in England. Undoubtedly when the operations of commerce in Ireland were restricted by
suspension ' of cash payments took Place, there was a very reason of the supposed menopoly, and that, consequently ,the
great extension in banking accommodation in [Mend, not people of Deblin were sufferers riot from an excess of accom-
only on the part of the Bank of Ireland. but on the part of mo i • from dfi nency of banking accommodatton•
anon, but a e e
A t
various private banks, then established and in 1804 Now, the only thing he had to complain of in the conduct
the great failure which to-,k place in Connaught of the -Bank of Ireland was, not that it gave too much, bu
of Lord French's Bank, and several other u L ,
:MKS, too little, accommodation. It was the most preposterous
caused ruin and dismay throughout a great aertion of Ir - al ism that could possibly enter into the mind of man, to
land. In 1820 the House was aware that the private ha iks suppose that the contrary was the case. It was true that
had considerably multiplied and 11 failed in a few months, the Bank might be tempted to extend its circulation too
and the entire circulation of the South of Ireland, as well es far, and give a fictitious stimulus and excitement to prices,
other parts of Ireland. was destroyed by these failures, He but the public might rely upon it that every bank carry-
believed, with the exception of three or four, and certainly ing on business with a view to its own profit would give
five, all the banks in Ireland failed, and the Bank of Ireland accommedatioe to as great en extent as they could carry
,T
was left to carry on the business of the country. On the it with safety, and the only apprehension was, not that
ia .
failure of these banks a new system was found necessary, would not give sufficient accommodation, but lest it might
and was introduced into Ireland by Lord Liverpool. An go too far. And yet .the whole of the complaint, and the