The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-10 00:00:00

WELSH JUDICATURE.

iehh ; atul lie felt bontrt to state that were Ills own lite in
jeopardy on any charge, he should think he could not
entrust it to any Judge more safely than to that distin-
guished individual.....(Hear, bear.)
111 r. PEEL thought it would be dangerous to set a pre-
cedent like that now attempted to be established. Ile
protested against the produetion'of the memorial.
After a few words from Mr. O'Corriiii,c, and Mr.
PEEL in reply, Mr. O'CONNELL withdrew his motion.
Mr. DUNCOMBR pre,!ented a petition from Sher-
bourn, Yorkshire, complaining of distress.
Mr, BARING presented a petition on the same subject
from Alresford.
SALARIES AND EMOLUMENTS.
On the motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, the follow-
ing Returns and AcCounts were ordered
Of the 'games and Offices of all Persons now employed in
the vezipective civil Departments of the United Kingdom, wtuve
Salaries and Emoluments exceed 250/. per annum ; showing the
compensation amount in 1815 and 1829 ; the grounds.on which
increase, if any, h2d been made, and giving the date of that
crease.
Of the Net Amount of the ReVelme Collected in each De-
partment, and the rate per Cent. at which such collection was
made.
" Of the 'tents of the Expenditure, including charges for con-
vevance out and home, and for outfit of the Diplomatic Con-
suiat Estatillsintent to the New States of South America, with
the time of Residence of each Consul, since January lrt,
Sir J. GRAHAM gave notice that on Friday next he
would move for the fel!owing Return
Of all Salaries, Profits, Pay, Fees, and Emoluments, whe-
ther Civil or Mill' ary, from sth January, 18211, to 4th January,
1%3'0, held anti enjoyed by each Member of the Privy Council ;
specifying the total amount received by, each individual ; and dis-
tinguishing the variousssources (torn which they were derived."

TREASURER OF THE NAVY.
The.. sabae'lloN. INlEursza gave notice that, on Fri-
day, before the House resolved itself into a Committee on
the Navy Estimates, he would move a resolution respecting
the recent apfiointtnent of the Treasurer of the Navy;
Mr. LITT.f.ETON, in presenting a petition from the
proprietors of,vrtrious iron mines in the counties of Stafford
and Worcester, against the monopoly enjoyed by the East
India Company, complained in strong terms of the priva-
tions to which the operatives in that trade were exposed,
and adverted shortly to communications which be had
some time agfi with the President of the Board of Trade.
Mr. HUSKISSON remembered the application made
by the Hon. Member at the Board of Trade, and he also
remembered tailing him, end those by whom he was ac-
companied, that the hardware trade of this country would
he most materially improved and henefitted by the intro-
duction into this country of the lighter productions of
other countries; and he had no doubt that that effect
would be produced were the cause allowed to come into
full operation. : He should not permit that,opportunity to
pass of acknovdedging the honourable and candid manner
in which the gentlemen who attended on that occasion ad-
mitted that the measures then in progress for removing the
restriction on foreign trade were for the good of the coun-
try—at least, that the originators of those measures in-
tended them to be productive of gocd.
After a few words from Mr. RoniNsoN,
Mr. LITTLETON said the petitioners were suffering
much ; that no one engaged in the iron trade in England,
Wales, or Scotland, was free from very severe privations.
The petition was then brought up, and ordered to be
printed.
Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from Emily
and Shelton, in the pottery district of Stafford, against
Slavery in the West Indies.
Lord F. L. GOWER brought up the Sheriffs of G,un-
tics in Ireland Bill, which was read a first time, and or-
dered to be read a second time on the 29th of Mardi.
Lord F. L. GOWER brought up the Ardglasa Harbour
Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a
second time on Tuesday next.
- Mr. WESTERN presented a petition from the parish of
Wt,thei field, in E-sex, praying for a reduction of the Tax
on Malt and Beer.
Mr. TRANT moved for a copy of the Commission issued
for instituting an
_lnquiry into the State of the Ecclesias-
tical Courts in England and Wales —Agreed to.
Mr. COURTENAY presented a petition from the mer-
chants, shipowners; and others, resident at the Cape of
Good Hope, against the monopoly enjoyed by the East
India Company.—Referred to the Committee on the
Charter of the East India Company.
Mr. .FYSCIIIi PALMEa then rose--
Sir H. HARDINGE hoped the Hon. Member would
allow the report of thel Committee of Supply to be brought:up.
Mr. F. PALMER had no objection, on the understand-
ing that he should be allowed to move afterwards.
j Oa the question that the report be brought up,

Mr. ROBERT GORDON said, that in bringing for.
ward the resolution with which he intended to conclude,
he meant to convey no imputation whatever upon the great
and illustrious men who kad served their country either in
the Army or the Navy—all he wished was to establish a
principle—he hoped a correct principle—upon which the
half-pay of military officers might in future be regulated.
It had been customary to introduce into the Appropriation
Act a clause regulating the half-pay and allowances of the
military. Early in the reign of the late King it was made
a rule that no officer on,half• pay should hold a civil office
without giving up his livalf-pay or retired allowance. This
practice was continued from Mil to 1820, when it was
for the first time departed from. and by a new regulatiOn
officers on half-pay were allowed to retain their civil em-
ployments, if any they had, and their half-pay at the same
time. The Finance Committee recommended a recurrence
to the ancient usage, and from that time to this the regula-
tion he spoke of remained on the old footing. Thus the
House would see that the deviation from the ancient prac-
tice was to be found in this change of 1820, and the re-
commendation of the Committee went to a restoration of
the old practice. Ile thoUght that when the House came
to look at the facts, they would agree with him that the
same reeulations ought to 'app'y to full as to half-pay, and
that neither should he retaisted by the holder of a civil
office. He did not object to a military man holding a
civil office ; but when he did hold a civil employment, he
engirt not to enjoy a greater benefit than a civilian holding
a similar situation. Why should he possess greater
benefits then the civil servants of the State ? For example,
if any person balding a Parliamentary pension obtain
a civil employment, the practice up to this time has
been that he make his election between the one or the
other. If he accept the one, the other immediately abated.
Then a military officer on full pry, accepting a civil situa •
don, did not relinquish thereupon the full pay, but the
holler of half-pay lost it instantly. In that there was any-
thing but fairness. There was a remarkable case then
before them—the Secretary at War enjoyed no half-pay
for his military services, but his Right Hon. Friend
beside him enjoyed his full pay, though he held along with
that full pay the situation of Secretary to the Colonies.
The Secretary at War then, and the Secretary of the Co-
lonies, though both of diem officers of distinguished merit,
stood in situations altogether different. He was aware he
might be told that the regiment,' which Colonels held were
their property, and thatthey might not to be deprived of
those on account of any civil office which they might sub-
sequently take. To that he had to say, that lie did not
propose to take away from those Colonels the Regiments
they might hold, but merely suspend the military etnolii-
ments which they held while the civil emoluments were
accruing. Here lie might, in passing, observe, that the
mode of paying Colonel, of Regiments et present in use,
was one of which he entirely disapproved. It might also
be objected to the view which he was taking of this
question, that those who were on half and those who
were on fall pay, did ?lot stand upon the same foot•
ing, and ought not to be treated alike; but he thought
the rule as to civil offices ought to be precisely the
same. He believed that there were some instances,
even where half-pay did, not stand in the way of hold-
ing civil offices—thus a Navy Lord might hold his half-
pay as an Admiral, and his full pay as a General of Ma-
rines, and his situation 4 the Board besides. lie found
it utterly impossible to discover any reason why full pay
should not stand exactly on the same footing as the half-
pay. It might be that he thought the present regulations
aotriewhat too strict ; but whatever might be thought of
ti ,ern, there could be no doubt that fair play demanded
that no difference should be male between one class of
retired military officers and another. Ile begged once
again to guard himself against being thought to convey
the slightest offence towards anv of the Gallant Officers in
that House, or in the service at all, least of all with re
spect to an illustrious General who held his military and
civil incomes without the.one being at all allowed to inter-
fere with the other. He should be the last man in the
world to endeavour to deprive those illustrious and gallant
individuals of the reward of their services ; they had the
highest claims upon the jiistice and upon the liberality of
their country. With respect to a great number of those
now upon the hall-pay iist, he must be allowed to say that
nothing could be more melancholy than the condition in
which they were placed. They were for the most part
Men of birth and education wire had served their country
for years—hail lost their limbs and their health in that
service, had spent their property in endeavouring to
attain that rank in the army which they had attained, and
which left them now without the means of maintain-
ing their station in society. Struggling against difficul-
ties such as there, they still could have no just ground
of complaint, if the sin ill amount of their stipend arose
from the real necessities of the country ; but when they
saw other military men, not more deserving than them-
selves, in possession of civil offices and full pay, with such
things
before their eyes, it would be no matter of surprise
that they sheuitt be diecouteuted...fitir arid equal justice

Mr. R. TREVOR presented a petition from thecounty
of Carmerthen; against the Bill for the alteration of the
Welsh Judicature.—Brought up, and laid upon the table.
Sir J. OWEN presented a petition with the sum,
prayer, from )astween le.oo and 1900 Freeholders of the
county of Pembroke.
.Mr. JONES presented a similar petition from the
Sheriff, Magistrates, kc. of the borough of Carmarthen.
The Hen. Member trusted that no attempt would he made,
as had been threatened, to hurry the Bill through the House
before Easter.
Sir C. COLE said that the borough of Glamorgan was
in favour of the Bill befoie the House.
Mr. PEEL denied that any mystery bad been kept up
regarding tie Bill, which had originated in the 'Team-
tnendation of a Commission after due inquiry. It had
been submited to Parliament last year, and he had himself
seen sixteen or eighteen gentlemen connected with the
Principality on the subject, so that there was no pretence
for sayingtthat the matter hail been kept secret. fie,
however, Concurred in the objection that had been raised
respictinethe division of counties, and full time should be
allowed to enable the people of Wa:es to give an opinion
upon the }whole tneasure.
Mr. JONES reiterated his objection to the alteration of
the syste;n, excepting as far as regarded placing the We:sh
Jadges upon the same footing as those of England.
Mr. FEEL was ready to enter into this compact—
that all Flue time for consideration should be allowed, pro-
vided tKe Hon. Member and his friends would not throw
needless impediments in the way E 0 as to prevent the pass.
in of Ole Bill in the present Session.
Mr. JONES consented to these terms, and laid upon
the talitle two other petitions, with the sense prayer as that
he before presented—one front the Burgesses and Coat-
monalty of Carmarthen, and the other from Kidwelly.
Colonel POWELL presented a similar petition from the
Freeholders, tic. of the county of Cardigan.
JUDGE JEBB.
Mr. O'CONNELL, after referring to a charge given to
the Grand Jury by one of the Irish Judges, which was in
oppritiou to the tenor of a Proclamation issued by the
Gofernmeot, moved that there be laid before the House a
memorial addressed to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, on
the subject of certain prosecutions for murder to be tried
at he next Anises for the county of Fermanagh.
Lord F. L. GOWER objected to the production of
such documents, unless some ground of suspicion were
priviously laid : to grant it, would imply a want of im-
partiality in the Efecutive GovernMent of Ireland, and
the precedent would be liable to inconvenience and abuse.
He heard with considerable regret any thing like an insi-
AtotiQs Against it settabeT of the Beach of inland—Judge

ought to be granted them, and &It in the dietrihution of
emoluments, no difference should he made between the
weak and the powerful. He hoped, too, that in meeting
his resolution, no 'doe distinctions should he set up be-
tween officers holding elevated rank, or subordinate. He
then moved as an amendment to the motion for receiving
the Report of the Committee of Supply, the following Re-
solution:—`° That it is the opinion of this House, that,
as certain regulations are in feree by which Half-ply
Officers of the Navy, Army, Ordnance, or Marines, are
prevented from receiving the whole or part of their half-
pay during the period they may enjoy the emoluments of
any civil office) it is expedient and just that the same
regulations shall extend to all Officers of the Army.
Navy, Ordnance, or Marines, in the receipt of full pay or
of profit from Naval or Military allowances, or from
emoluments from Naval or Military appointments."
Sir HENRY HARDINGE admitted the psrfect fair-
ness of the statement male by the lion. Member who had
just sat down. With respect, in the first place, to the
alterations made in 1820, and the change by the Finance
Committee, he at the time, as now, pronounced that change
to be exceedingly ill judged. It was neither economical
nor politic. As an illustration of the effect which the re-
fusal to allow half-pay to be retained by officers accepting
other appointments, he would instance the case of a Cap-
tain appointed to the situation of Barrack-master. The
pay ref a Bei-rack-master was 7s. 6d.--the half-pay of a
Captain 7s. If a Captain accepted a Barrack-mastership.
be lost his half-pay—the two together were but 14s. 641.
If he resigned the one fvr the other, he undertook heavy
and laborions duties, considerable responsibility, the ex-
pence and inconvenience of a residence abroad—all for 6d.
a day. Upon those grounds, and he thought them suffi-
cient, he disapproved of the change, and he thought it
productive of the most evident injustice. He thought that
full pay or retired allowances granted for military services
ought to be retained, and certainty thought the same rule
ought to apply to half-pay ; but not in the manner in
which the Resolution would seek to make it. , In the
service there were under the rank of Major-General,
5,20 officers on full pay, and of that number there
were only three in the civil service wlioin he could
discover. There was one in a colonial situation—
there was a Captain Turner, as Secretary to the
Governor of Bermuda ; but he had no staff-pay as Aid-de-
camp. The third was in the 7th Regiment, stationed at
Botany Bay, where he held the situation of Clerk to the
Council, for which lie received 1001. a year. He was per-
fectly ready to discuss the question as the Hon. Member
had proposed to discuss it, as a nutter of ancient usage ;
but he thought, that upon examination it would be found
that the ancient usage was rather against the lion. Mem-
le,r, than against the views which he (Sir H. IL) took
of the question. Now, let them take the case of Celonels
of regiments—they always retained the emoluments of
their regiment, notwithstanding any civil situation to
which they might be appointed.—that had always been the
practice; and he would contend that it was a practice
which ought to be continued. To go back to the case of
the Duke of Marlborough, which was going back far
enough—and the case of the Duke of Marlborough was one
which he trusted the Hon. Member for Montrose would
acknowledge as an authority of Fettle weight—that dietin-
guished individual held the Filet Regiment of Guards, the
office of Master-General of the Ordnance, and of Constable
of the Tower. The Duke of Wellington held the same
offices, and under the same circumstances ; and to that,
he expected, no one would be found to enter a valid ob-
jection. As to n-hat the Hon. Member said respecting his
Right Hon. Friend near him, and himself, lie saw nothing
invidious in the comparison. His (Sir H. H.'s) services
were inferior to those of his Right Hon. Friend. In clue
time, if he lived, he might expect to attain the same rank
in the Army as his Right Hon Friend ; but until they
should stand upon the same footing professionally, he de-
clared himself quite content with the advantages he then
possessed. Ilis Right Hon. Friend had a regiment ; the
income of a regiment generally averaged about 1,000/.
a year. Previous to the appointment of his Right Hon.
Friend to the situation he at present held, be was Gover-
nor of Edinburgh Castle. That he resigned ; and he at
present bolds the office of Governor of Fort George,which
produced 470/. ; so that the whole of his reward for a
life of military service, was about 1,5001. a year. To
punish him by taking that away, merely because he under-
took to serve the State in some other way, was anything
'out fair and equal justice. When General Fitzpatrick
held the office of Secretary at War, he had long been in-
efficient as a military officer. He was given a regiment,
and enjoyed the full pay, with all the emoluments of, the
office. There was another case—that of the Lieutenant-
Governor of the Tower, and the Surveyor-General of the
Ordnance, who had each 1,2001. a year. Were either of
those officers to give up their regiments, they would just
receive 200/. a year for their services. What motive,
then could they have for accepting office? Let the House
only look at the grounds upon which the Hon. Member
pressed his motion. He said that they dealt harshly with
the half-pay officers, and he called upon them to deal as
harshly with those upon full pay ; for wherein lay the
difference ?—the officer who received full pay had earned
it as well and was ae justly entitled to it as the officer upon
half-pay. The Hon. Member seemed to propose, that
when a General Officer received a Civil appointment, he
should immediately resign his regiment; but the income
of that regiment was given chiefly on account of the great
responsibility which the Colonel of a regiment neces-
sarily undertook. A Colonel was often bound to pay
large sums to Government on account of the various per-
aons connected with the regiment who might happen to
become defaulters. Recently he hind to call upon the Colo-
nel of a regiment for a sum of 1,500/. ; upon another, for
1,8001. ; upon another, fur 2,0001., though time last-men-
tioned sum was afterwards reduced to 1,400/. Colonels of
regiments were answerable for agent* for clothing, and
for a variety of other matters, for which they could not be
applied to if their incomes were withdrawn or suspended.
Within the present year, ten General Officers had been
appointed to regiments, and lie had instituted an inquiry
into their length of service and their ages, and he had
struck an average—lie found that the average period of ser-
vice was 39 years, and their average age 55 years. The
130 regiments in the service Afforded the only prizes in the
profession to 13,000 officers on full and half-pay belonging
to it. Would the House be disposed to withdraw those
prizes ? lie hoped, that with those facts before them, they
would see the necessity rather of rejecting than of adopting
the resolution of the Hon. Gent. in case he should deem it
right to press that motion to a division, which, lie hoped,
would not prove the c Ise.
Mr. C. WOOD briefly supported the motion.
Sir F. BURDETT said a few words against the motion.
He saw no reason for depriving any of the officers of that
half-pay which they had so hardly earned. As he under-
stood the motion, it would go to deprive some officers of
their half-pay, which was quite contrary to the general
principles which he thought ought to be acted on. He
was quite aware of the necessity of encouraging the Minis-
ters to practise that economy whirls was now required by
the country, bat he could not consent to urge that economy
at the expense of individual*.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said, that if the subject were
likely to be taken into consideration by his Majesty's Go-
vernment, he would recommend his Hon. Friend to with-
draw his motion.
Lord ALTHORP felt all the inconvenience of Mini-
sters being placed in a situation of refusing to make al-
lowances and grant emperannuations to gentlemen; he
felt, however, that the HouseWras placed in a critical
situation ; and while he regretted the difficulty in which
Government was placed, he must insist that it was the
duty of the House to press economy on the Government.
It was painful, perhaps, fur Members to erfforce economy
when it affected individuals, but there was a necessity for
their being trustees for the public, not to allow their feel-
ings to get the better of their duty to the public.—(Hear,
hear.)—The statement by his Hon. Friend had not been
answered in the slightest degree by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman. It seemed to him a partial system to deprive the
lower ranks of officers of their half-pay if they accepted
civil situations, and to allow the higher ranks to retain
their full pay with official situations. Such a system
ought not to be continued. The Hon. Baronet and the
Hon. Member for Kireudbright 'teemed to think that the
half-pay was to be continued at the same amount as it ever
had been ; and if that were the way in which they pressed
economy on the Government—(Cheers)—they might be
sure that the Government would steadily attend to their
recotnmendation.—(Hear, hear,)—Being convinced of the
necessity of doing everything possible tae enforce economy,
and limit the national expenditure, he should give his vote
for the motion of the Hon. Member.
Mr. IIUSKISSON was disposed generally to concur in
the views of the Noble Lord ; but consider ing all the cir-
cunastunces of the case, he should have more satisfaction if
the motion were not pressed to a division. He thought that
the time was come when the whole system of superannaa-
tions, allowances, pensions and half pay must, from the
circumstances of the country, become a subject of investi-
gation.—(Hear, hear.)—The House ought to go into such
an inquiry, not with reference solely to half-pay or full
pay, but with reference to every kind of salary. It would
be wise and good policy to do so, and the Government
ought to be encouraged to take the arduous task into its
hands. He admitted that the recompence of the half-pay
was well earned, but the House must look at time difli-
culties under which the country was placed. If, according
to the statement of his Right Hon. Friend, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, of seventeen millions expended annually

only eleven Millions were apteiled to the ettelent and active to he enneertrant, anti of number of Courts in tvhich he
servie, of the country, while six, millions were paid for was supposed to presile, if he fulfilled in person the duties
euperannuetion allowances, pensions, and half-pay, and if of his office. Amens these he enumerated the presiding in
this sum had been increasing since 1822—(Hear, hear)— the County Cow to, the protection of the public as Conser-
it was time to consider if the whole establishment could not vator of the Peace, his duties es Collector of the Crowe
be gradually diminished, instead of taking any partial view. Rents, and as the officer called on to execute all writs issued
He bad listened with attention to his Right Hon. Friend within the county. All these, and many other judicial and
the Secretary of War, but had not clearly understood that :Ministerial functions, were united in a man who was coin-
there was any other difference between continuing the full pelled to discharge a large portion of the expenses out of his
pay to officers holding other stations, and continuing the even pocket, and who was liable to be prsoecuted for the
half-pay, than that the one was usual, and; tjte other not, failure nr misconduct of his officers. Every expense of
As to Colonels of regiments, he did not look on their ape the Judges of Assize was paid by the Sheriff—tlos sable of
pointmente as a remuneration for past services ; these ape their attendants, the coals, the beer, the wine consumed et
pointnents involved, he believed, eel tain duties, and the ' their place of residence—ad was defrayed from the gains of
Colonels had no other remuneration. lie wished to see the High Sheriff, while he was at the same time compelled
the principle of the Act of Parliament extended to all to bring a vast number of retainers to the Court Town, at
classes of pensions and allowances. It would be well his own cost, to In employed as jevelin-men, and for
fig the Government to take up this subject; hut if it did other purposes. To so great an extent had this gone,
not, mill if no other Hon. Member, snore competent to that a law was passed in the 13th and 14th of Clarks
the task than himself did not, he did not know that he the Second, by which it was enacted, that no Sheriff
should not cell the attention of the House to the subject !should lie compelled to keep a table at the Assite
himself, before the close of the Session.—(Heir, hear.)— Town for any save the Members of his own feinile
Something like principle ought to be acted on throughout ; or the Judges' servants ; that he was not at any titres to
and lie thought that the principle of the Bill, introduced bring forth more than forty retainers ; but for the salon of
by the Hon. Member for Dortetehire, that on the accep- decency and a proper regard to the dignity of his station,
tance of an of double the value of any halt-pay or he was not to appear with less than twenty in England or
allowance, the latter should be suspended; and on the j twelve in Wales, to be employed as javelin m,•n. lie bad
acceptance of an office of less value, half the half-pay or i procured a return of the amount of expenses incurred in
allowance should be suspended—was the principle that j one county, and he found that they amounted to about
ought to be adopted. If that were not done, and if they 1 thirteen hundred pounds, while the whole of the receipts
dial not afford some opportunity of considering the whole I were only six hundred pounds, so that the remaining seven
subject, the six millions might be increased to a yet greater I hundred remained to be made good out of the pockst of the
sum. He must say that fur this large expenditure the I Sheriff. Looking at the extent of duty required from the
Geverntnent was not to blame; it had been forced on the I high Sheriff, and the expenses to which he was subjected
Government.—(Hear, bear.)—ln times of ease and pros- in the performance of those duties, he thought they were
perity, they all knew with what ease grants were made; by much too numerous and too great to be demanded
and if they did not when in difficulty press for reduction from any gentleman of ordinary fortune; and he, there-
and relief, it was not likely that any would he obtained. fore, proposed to bring the subject under tile consideration
Looking at the whole question, he would beg his lion. of a Select Committee, for the purpose of ascertaining to
Friend to withdraw his motion. what extent the duties might be lightened and the ex-
Mr. R. GORDON, is reply, did not think the Right pauses removed. He, should, therefore, without troubling
Hon. Gent. In el answered his objections : and he hoped the House by going into any further details, moee at once
that the Right Hon. Gent. who spoke last would more far a Select Committee to take into their consideration the
either for a Select Committee, or a Committee of the ditties and expenses attending the execution of the office of
whole House, to inquire into the sulsject. With an un- High Sheriff in England and Wales, with a view to
deistanding that the subject should be taken up by his devise some means to reduce or amend the tonne.
Majesty's Ministers, or by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he Mr. HUDSON GURNEY said that the motion of the
should consent to withdraw his amendment. Hon. Member seemed to go to the reformation of points so
Mr. Secretary PEEL protested against its being under- extremely frivolous, that it would be worse than idle to
stood that his Msjesty's Government was pledged to a mo- give it the support of the House.
tion of which no notice had been given, and of which he The motion was, however, agreed to, and the Corn-
did not yet know the terms. As an earnest of the inten- mittee, consisting principally of County Members, forth-
tions:of his Majesty's Government with respect to sal,- with appointed.
ries, he woelel remind the. House that, the Session before STATE OF THE POOR.
last, his Right lion. Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex- Mr. W. HORTON then rose to make his promised
chequer) bad introduced a Bill to regulate the retiring motion for a Committee of the whole House to inquire
allowances of the civil servants of the Government, ac- j into the causes of the distress among the poorer classes of
cording to the recommendation of the Finance Commit- I the country. The Bon. Member commenced by observ-
tee. He did not propose to deprive any of the servants of I ing that he preferred moving for a Committee of the whole
the Government of their retired allowances, hut he pro- i House rather than a Select Committee, because he thought
posed to deduct a per centage from all salaries to form a it would be more satisfactory to the sufferers to hear the
Superannuation Fund. But how did the House meet the course of the proceedings as they occurred, and the nature
views of his Right Hon. Friend ? He was unable to pass ;of the evidence offered in their favour, than if the subject
the Bill. He received no support. His Right Hon. I was to be examined in the usual manner by a Committee
Friend had now the subject ender his consideration, and ! especially appointed for the purpose. lie thought it neces-
would have no objection to revive the proposition of the : sery to premigt, in the outset, that he wished to confine
Session before last. his inquiries solely to the distress prevailing among those
Mr. HUSKISSON wished the Hon. Member to under- I poorer classes whose labours were the most productive,
stand that he had not pledged himself to move for any ' and who received at present so small an extent of remit--
Committee, but only to call the attention of the House to neration in proportion to the labour which they were called
the subject, if no more able Member were to take it up. on to employ. After all the attention he had been able to
Mr. Secretary PEEL internist! the House, that the give the subject, he was convinced that the distress of this
principle of the Bill formerly introduced into the House class was to he found in the euperabutelance of the num-
had been applied to every person accepting office, and to her who required employment in proportion to the demand,
all new offices. and that the class most materially interested in the re-
Lord HOWICK hoped his Hon. Friend would not moral of that evil was that on whom their maintenance
withdraw his motion. He regretted that the Hon. Mem- principally fell—he meant the landed interest of the
ber for Westminster and the Hon. Member for Kireud- country. When he heard so many discussions night after
bright should encourage the Government in its extreva- night on the subject of the reduction of general taxation,
gance. 'I he Government was ready enough to attend Ihe cenfessed he was at a loss of understand why they could
to recommendations similar to those. Where the Chan- allow the Poor Laws to esespe teir consideration, and why
cellar of the Exchequer had brought in the Bill alluded to, I they did not direct their attention in striking the balance
he had not marshalled all his forces to pass it; and he had I skeet to the reduction of the seven or eight millions of
withdrawn it after a very feeble oppositiou from the Hon. taxation which pressed on the landed interest through the
Gentleman, who was then on the Opposition side of the Poor Rates, just as ardently as they applied themselves to
House, and was now Paymaster of tire Army. lie hoped procure a relief Irons theme other taxes which pressed on the
that his Hon. Friend would not withdraw his motion, industry of the country. In entering on an inquiry of this
unless a distinct pledge was given that an inquiry should kind, it was well worth while to look at the opinions enter-
be instituted into the Dead Weight. He would call on tained with respect to the distress of the labouring( classes
ties Right Hoe. Gentleman to say whether or not he would lat different periods of our history. In the year 1796, Mr.
grant such an inquiry ? If the Right Hon. Gent. would Whitbread introduced a Bill into the House for the purpose
I
consent, he would recommend the lion. Member to with- of regulating the Wages of Labourers in Husbandry.
draw his motion; if not, he recommended him to persevere. 1 This, be it recollected, was before the Bank of England
Mr. MABERLY defended the Gevernraent. I was authorised to refuse payments in gold, and before any
Mr. Secretary PEEL would not believe that the lof those changes which were afterwards introduced into the
House would be so unjust as to require that the Ministers ; monetary system bad been carried into effect, and yet
should pledge themselves to a 'notion of which no notice I even then the people were, as now, suffering under that
had been given, and of which the terms were not known. redundancy of labourers, which he maintained to be the
Did the Noble Lord wish to deprive officers of their Ina- great cause of the distress. Mr. Whitbread, in the dis-
pay ? On Monday next his Right Hon. Friend was to enaction on the Bill, used some language which was peen-
bring forward his view of the financial state of the coun- liarly remarkable with reference to this fact. He said
try. The ordinary expenditure of the country was eleven 1" in most parts of the country the labourer had long been
millions, and the dead weight and pensions amounted to !struggling with increasing misery, till the pressure had be-
six millions, and was it to be supposed that his Right come almost too grievous to he endured, while the patience
Hon. Friend would allow the six millions to escape his of the sufferers under their accumulated distresses had been
attention? In the absence of his Right Hon. Friend, he I conspicuous and exemplary." These were praises which,
could not be expected to pledge himself to any measure ' if applied to the manner in which the great body of the
similar to that required by the Noble Lord. people bore their distresses and sufferings, could scarcely
Lord HOWICK only roses to guard himself against its be increased in intensity. Mr. Whitbread observed on the
bein supposes that he wished to touch the half-pay of same occasion, " that by the pressure of the times, mar-
s s. riage was discouraged ; and among the labouring classes
officer
Sir H. lIARDINGE understood the Hon. Metnber to of the community the birth of a child, instead of being
accuse the Government of gross partiality, in continuing hailed as a blessing, was considered as a curse." To re-
the allowances of General Officers while subalterns were kk reedy these evil,: Mr. Whitbread recommended a minitnum
obliged to give up their half-pay on accepting office. But lof wages to be fixed ; and he argued that the Act of Eliza-
the Honse would reinember that in 1315 it was recom- heels had established a maximum of labour, which was good
mended that the number of General ,Officers should be di. against the labourer, but that it had established no mini-
minished ; and from 375, their number then, they had mum which would be good against the employer. Mr.
been gradually reduced to 120, by which a swing had Pitt, in the same debate, admitted, instead of denying the
been effected of 33,0001. extent of the distress; but he argued against the fixing a
The call of question now became general; and on the minimum of wages, as contrary to all general principles,
question being put on the original motion, awl concluded in these words :—" What measure, then,
Mr. HUME suggested that it would be wise to withheld could be found to supply the defect? Let us (said he)
the grant till after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had t make relief, in cases where there me a number of childrenfor,
made his financial statement. a matter of right and an honour, instead of a ground
After a few words from Mr. R. Gordon, Mr. Huskisson, opprobrium and contempt." And Mr. Fox and Mr.
and Lord Hotvick in explanation, the Amendment of the Whitbread concluded by recommending the Government
former Gent. was, by the leave of the House, withdrawn. to provide a liberal premium for the encouragement of
The Report was then ordered to be brought up. Seve- I large families. If the principle that a surplus of labourers
ral items were agreed to without opposition. On the produced a redundancy of labour in that as well as in
question that the House agree to the Resolution of the other commodities had been then known and recognized,
Committee for granting 32,0001. for Exchequer Fees, he believed these distinguished Statesmen would have been
Mr. HUME took the opportunity of observing that the I induced to recant their mots. But the assertion of Mr.
quarantine establishments were at present expensive; and i Pitt, with respect to labourers, was about as rational as if
to express his hope that, ilaity vacancies occurred in them, he had proposed to cure a glut of sugar, byh inc Mr. reasin
Wh itg the
they should not be filled up. . quantity in the market. After observing tat -
Mr. HERRIES believed that his Right lion. Friend bread proposed two Bills subsequent to the year 1507,
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not need tire tug- when the book of Mr. Malthus appeared, and that they
gestion of the lion. Member to attend to the subject lie were not free from the errors of the former—for one of the
had alluded to. As to the Treasury, he could say that it clauses oroposed a premium to the father of a family of six
had, to the utmost of its power, carried into execution the children—the Ilenourable Member proceeded to say, that
recommendation of the Finance Committee. The Noble I Mr. Ricardo was the only person who seemed, on the
Lord had done his Right Hon. Friend injustice, by ac- discussion of these Bills, which were afterwards lost
cusing him of lukewarm:less in passing the Bill Ire had in the Lords, to have any idea that a redundancy
brought into the House the Session before last. He knew of population diminished the amount of wages, and
that his Right. Hon. Friend had made the greatest exer- that the Bills were calculated to increase the evils
tions to get that Bill through the House, but lie had nut I they proposed to cure. When, therefore, they saw
been supported even by the Members of the Finance Corn- that, in the year 1796, the same complaints were trade as
mittee. at present, and that the poorer classes were suffering the
The Resolution of the Committee was then weed to. same privations, be thought it must be admitted that the
On the question that the Bruce agree to the Resolution evils did not flow altogether from an increase of taxation,
of the Committee to grant 60,6121. to his Majesty, to de. as some persons seemed to suppose. In the work of a
fray the expence of Volunteers, gentleman named Barton, with which he thought nearly
Mr. HUME expressed his surprise that this vote should all the Members of the House must be acquainted, and
be continued, and would move, as an Amendment, that which contained more information than almost any other
thirty thousand and odd pounds he granted for a period of on these subjects, he found it observed, " that if it could
six months; that is, until the 30th of June of the present be proved that its Switzerland and other countries the same
year. distress was suffered as in this country—if the people of
On this question being put, countries of the Continent, where there was no paper
Mr. PORTMAN expressed a hope that on the eve of currency. and where there had always been a free impor-
the metiers of the Right Hon Gentleman (Mr. Horton) tation of grain—if countries inhabited by a people poor
for taking into consideration the calmest of the present ex- and agricultural—were labouring under the same evils as
tent of suffering among the poorer classes, the House a country rich, manufacturing, and luxurious—did it not
would not allow this last proposition, fur a just and wise show that there existed some cause for that distress, corn-
reduction of the Estimates, to he frittered away like the mon to alloeistindepeedent of those local circumstances
former ones. He agreed most fully with the Honourable to which it wee generally attributed?" Now he would
Member (Mr. Hume), that the volunteers should be ren- ask the House to say, whether that cause was not the re-
tiered voluntary ; and that in times like the present, unless 11 dundancy of population which rendered the wages of
they could be supported without such an enormous ex-1 labour insufficient for the maintenance of the labourer ?—.
pense, the country would he better without their services. I Time laws of those countries involved principles much more
He would therefore implore lion. Members to consider severe than we dared to resort to in this country; prin-
the necessity for economy; and Ile was confident there was siples, however, the result of which was to maintain the
not a man in the House, meaning honestly and sincerely I labouring classes in a state of comparative ease and inde-
to relieve the burthens of the people, who could refute his I pendence ; a state to which pauperism was almost, if not
vote to the amendment now proposed..—(hear.), altogether, unknown. With respect to the Bills which at
Sir H. HARDINGE said the Estimates were framed I various periods had been introduced into that House for
on as low a scale as they could be o and he put it to the I, the purpose of establishing a better regulation of the poor,
courtesy of the Hon. Member whether he would thus eon- ! they had all failed; they hid all been abandoned by their
tinue an opposition which the sense of so many decided ; original promoters ; and no material alteration had taken
majorities had been expressed against already. place on the subject. The Bill which was introduced in
The House then divided— 1 1522 by Mr. Nolan, in a very able and argumentative
For the original Resolution IO4 I speech, was more analogous to the principles maintained
For the Amendment
Majority —4s ! been proposed with similar objects ; but still it did not
The original resolutions were then agreed to. I suggest any practical remedy for the existing evil which
DUTIES OF HIGH SHERIFFS. I appeared to him to Ire of sufficient efficacy. After all the
Mr. FYSCHE PALMER, in rising pursuant to notice attention that he had bestowed upon this subject—and
to move for a Committee to inquire into the nature of the he could assure the House that he had bestowed upon it
Duties of High Sheriff, entered into a detail of the various the mast anxious attention--(Hear)—he would suggest to
complicated !subjects on which a High Sheriff was expected . my one who should in future wish to undertake an ame-

lioration of o ir present condition with respect to the p001`,."
the advantage that would be derived from considering.'
them under four sepwate heads. Firstthe poor irho
had real employment, and who maintained themalves br
the n-ctual wa,!es of their lsbeur. Such persons were free
from pauperism; priva-ions they certainly suffered a.
compared with other pa: is of the community; but for that
there was no remedy. The next class was the helpless
poor ; who, however ;bey might wish to labour, were
destitute of the power to do t.o, either from too great ace,
or too great youth, or sick 7 e s, or accident; and who
must he supported by charity; whether that charity was
co.nanls ry and prescribed by law, or whether it flowed
spontaneously from the benevo'ence of individuals. The
t'ad r!a454 CO,Slited of those. whom he was desirous ewe-

e; .111 to distinguish by the appellatien of '• the pauper
class ;" heing able bodied men, trilling to work, but
who e.,!;11 not get employment, and who, if not assisted by
others, must perish. That was the ela,.s tvhieli now de-
[minded !be most serious attention of the Legidature,
in
oriir to endpavour to discover the best means of disposing

....... .. ...... .
of it. .
IThe last class was sego's—persons who prefer.
rt.d living on charity to supporting themselves by honest
imitt,try. and who, while they could find any individuals
in the country prepared to relieve their neceskitirs, would
look to no other means of subsistence. Every one con-

versant, with the laws of production knew that no capi-
talist would go on producing any article unless he could
obtain a remunerating price for it. But the labourer bad
iv, choice. Ile Must continue to offer hi, labour, not
while be could obtain a remunerating price for it, but
_ _

while he could prevail upon any one to employ him at
whatever price. In the large classes supported by charity,
must he comprehended those who received money for any-
thing hut for their labour. If, therefore, a elan received
money from the parish to make good the deficiency of his
wages, the mere fact of his'recciving wages dill rot take
him out of the pauper class. Such a practice, however, was
productive of the greatest evils. It operated specifically
against the interest of the strongest and the best labourer;
for it brought society into competition against him ; di-
minished the average price of labour; and, finally, re-

dared him to a state of poverty to which all hope Was
clenitd. On these grounds it wa• that he highly ap-
_

proved of the Bill which an Hon. Friend of his had intro-
duced for preventing any part of the wsges of labourers
from being paid ont of the poor rates ; or, in other words,
to prevent the privste employers of labour from Leing at-
sisted out of any corporate fund... One modification, how-
ever, he wished to tee of his Hon. Friend's Bill, namely,

that in the case of any labourer haying a Isrge family,
which he was inculpable of supporting on his wages, if
there wages were such as would be sufficient fir the sup-
port of an unmarried and unencumbered labourer, that

then the parish should pay to the married labourer the ha- I
lance necessary for the maintenance of iris family, With-
ont entering into the consideration of the mode of levying
the poor rates, the first suggestion which he would take ii
the liberty of throwing out upon the subject was, that in
.!
the accounts of every parish the sums paid to the helplese 1
poor should he keot separate from the sums paid to the
third class witioh he bad described, or the pauper poor.
By such a regulation, they would obtain an account of the
redundant labouring population. His next suggestion
would be to empower parishes to employ the able-bodied
poor in concentrated labour, instead of employing them in
the it separate parishes. It appeared to him that in marl,
instances labour, which afforded no return when employed
in separate perishes, would be productive, if the labour of
several parishes were concentrated- Another suggestion
would be to frame some regulations for restricting the erec-
tion
of cottages in parishes where it was shown that a
great redurelancv of labour existed. A cheek of this de-
weription would be most advantageous. He was also de-
cidedly of opinion that to give the able-bodied poor, the
natural labourers of the country, a small quantity of
ground for their own cultivation, would be atteadeel with
highly beneficial consequences.—(Hear, hear.) In sup-
port of his principle of the existence of a large rednndance
of the labouring population, he would refer to a petition 1
front one of the Hundreds of the County of Bedford, pre-
sented to the House towards the close of the last Session
of Parliament. In that petition it was stated that 4,0001 s
was paid yearly by that hundred for labour, for which
there was no return ; and that the system was productive
of serious crime and of every variety of shade of moral
turpitude ; and presented a picture of pauperism of the
most deploreble character. The petition proceeded to }
state what proportion of the able-bodied labourers of tire
hundred would be sufficient to perform all the ordinary
and habitual labour of the hundred. The number of able-
bodied labourers in the parish was 2,177. After making
every due allowance for harvests and other casual demands,
it appeared that 1?496 would be sufficient to perform do :
work of the hundred; and, consequently, that in the haw' I
deed in question, containing thirteen parishes, ClEtt able-
bodied labourers might be advantageously spared. - He
was persuaded that if by the means which he had recom-
mended an account of the redundant labour-population Of
the country were to he forthcoming, it would create much
astonishment. Ile by no meane meant to say that muck
of this redundant labour might not, at a future period, he
again absorbed ; lint he contended that while it continued
to press upon the food of productive labour, it occasioned
the most serious evils; He had, as might easily be sup-
posed, received numerous; letters and other communications,
anonym:us and otherwise, on the subject to which he had
paid so much attentioa ; and among them one from an en-
lightened individnal, a man of the hirheet possible charac-
ter, trim, speaking of his own neighbourhood, stated that a
strong desire fur emigration prevailed, that the labouring
population were sinking with an accelerating velocity into
tlikjaws of pauperism, and that the funds of the parish
were insufficient to remedy the evil; or, to use his own
forcible expression, "to relieve the wretchedness of the
labouring population, breeding and starving in a paroxysm
of hopelessness; and fatuity." The state of Ireland Afforded
a sufficient proof of the evils which resulted to the labour.
ing classes from the absence of all check on the increase of
population. The existence of a state of the most wretched
pauperism was not in itself a check on that increase. This
a as clearly established in Mr. Barton's letter, to which ho
had elroady referred. Mr. Hodges, a gentleman from
Kent, who gave evidence before the Emigration Committees
said that ix proportion as the labouring population became
more miserably poor they became more reckless, and mare
vied at All early age, without the slightest regard to any
consequence,. This was a feet established by experience
and by communications from other quarters. He (Mr.
Horton) seas one of those who thought that if the Poor
Laws were properly regulated, they would be very benefi-
, cial. He conceived that the existence of judicious Poor
Laws indicated a high state of civilization in any country
But of this he was certain, that a country in Which there
Was a free circulation of labour, as well as of other comma'
lilies, must lie everywhere under the same law respecting
the poor. If twenty counties were without a poor laws
and twenty counties were with one, that would be produce
five of great evil. For his part lie could see no reason
why, now that 'our union with Ireland was cemented, the
inter position of the ocean should prevent Ireland foal
having the same poor law as England. Bat be should be
very bony to see the poor laws inflicted on Ireland, one
lees she possessed the means of getting rid•of her redufl'
dant lalourir g population. The object of the -Legislature
ousht to be to distinguish between that . class of the
population which lived ' upon the produce of the la'
hour provided by private employers, and thatOelase
e Well lived upon other sources. If they; wanted
to into duce a prudent and effective cheek toincise: ling pe'
!striation, they must make a substantive distinction be'
tweeri the two clisses which he had described. The labour'
ing elutes must be taught to feel the disgrace of pals'
perism, and they would then anxiously avoidit. At pre"
sent no such anxiety existed. Until it revived. eyery.
effort would be heps less. It was impossible 'to` seinsiger
the situation of the peor in this country, without advert' !
ing to the offset produced by the influx of the Irish poor' -
He by no means intended to say that the Irish goer ought
not to be allowed to come over to this country. But thn
potrooe of Irelaral was one of the substantial causes of tll
increase of population iii that country.—(A laugh.)--'
This potatoe-fed population came over so this country to .
enter into competition with our labouring poor,' becatte°
there was no law in Ireland calling on the rich, under auf
circumstances, to provide for the poor. So little were tht
poor of Ireland relieved by the rich of Ireland, that wheel,
ever there was a failure in the potatoe crop of Ireland, esl
posing the poor of that couutry' to starvation, English be
nevolenee always extended its assistance to theists. Tbill'
however, a bonus was given to the increase of distress in
both c• nntiies. All he asked was the extension to Iry
land of the laws on the snbject which were established in
Great Britain ; and then the potatoe-fed population of Ire'
land would prove beneficial to the empire. He wished ht
could see All attempt made to separate the pauper popule
tion from the labouring population of 'lreland. The re
port of the Committee of 182 b stated, that of the forme(
class no fewer than a million were strolling over the coo,'
irlctianwdotarldNahteionaal nirietabiectitteyficAilesl,3coialitciyont.o inTthrode oree:
into try.
ports of such an Association we rid distinctly exhibit till
amount of the redundant population of Ireland. I.lletti
latiiifei
I
thattb the p:Oa: wa'ocuerlitlllbrele(pl'reanitie premature.
feind, ' on experiment, that the I-stimulant populethl,
might be advantageously employed at home, after WA
ti' should be arfet:Prwecatril
example of the Dtitch, let that be tried. If, on the Oh!
hand, it should apps ar Wet the advantage-of the oonale::
tilts, would be wore promoted by asiimol eolmtirAW"

Nome play
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sometltior
if not ch
teat. Ui
irk; claw
truth of v
present ail

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i
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