The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-24 00:00:00

EVENING ItaITI ON.

vernment, they would have possessed the same power.
The country its 1834 had taken its real position, and the ,
Eliot Convention had been the consequence. Had the d
Government maintained the some position it would have
been enabled to continue in the same beneficial course,
and ILicl that course been pursued it would be impossible
to foretel what might have been the result at this period.
He certainly hoped that it might have been attended with
that most happy of all results, the pacification and esta-
blishment of such a Government as should tend to ensure
the peace and happiness of all the worthy inhabitants of
that country. Ile would now turn to another
subject, on which he thought the Noble Vis-
count mistook the position respecting the great alliance
of Europe. The Noble Earl said we could not enter into
negociaeons because uf the Quadruple Treaty. This was
not the fact ; we could not enter into a conference with
the other three allies, because Great Britain was a belli-
gerent—(Cheers)—the other three allies had not acknow-
ledged the Queen—thay were rather inclined to acknow-
ledge the other parties—but they had maintained their
position as strict neutrals, but England stood in the posi-
tion of a belligerent, and it was quite obvious that no
conference could take place between parties thus situated.
The Government might have entered into negotiation
with the other Powers of Europe for the pacification of
Spain, but he trusted it would never be upon the basis
laid down by the Noble Earl—not by marines and sailors,
but by the moral influence of this country acting along with
her Allies. That was the way in which the matter ought
to have been settled. That was the way in which he had
alway s contended it ought to have been done.—( Cheers. )
Ilewould not ask them to break any treaty—perform
them to the very letter ; do all in theirpower to settle the
Crown upon the head of the Queen, but do not attempt to
do it by a little war. The papers on the table showed that
he was right from the beginning. The Government now
had it in their power to put an end to the war in Spain by
agreeing to the offer of a negotiation with the other
Powers, and he hoped they would do so.
Lord BROUGHAM would not have taken any part in
the discussion were it nut that he could not let the oppor-
tunity pass without congratulating the country upon the
state of our foreign relations as st..ted by his Noble Friend
(Earl Clarendon). It was unfortunate that foreign affairs
occupied so little of the attention of the public and of Par-
liament that the Governmcnt were almost irresponsible.
In consequence of what had taken place—in consequence
of the atrocities which had been committed—he had been
induced to reconsider the whole matter, and he was dis-
posed to doubt not only the expediency but the lawfulness
of this country interfering in the domestic concerns of an-
other country. He would not say that a case might
not
arise which might render such an interference expedient
and necessary, but it would require a very strong measure
to justify the people of one nation taking part in a quarrel
in another country. It must be with feelings anything
but closely allied to pride, or exultation, that the English
looked at what had taken place, and at occurrences et
which they had assisted. They certainly were not in,'
plicated in the atrocities which had taken place, but they
continued to bear arms along with those who committed
them—committed atrocious murders in cold blood. He
had reconsidered the opinion which he had given
four
years ago, and he very much doubted whether it was law-
ful for any one to go to war, except at the command of
the Civil Magistrate of his own country. Revolting atro-
cities had been committed on both sides, and ought to
have opened the eyes of all who were assisting them.
The Marquis of L 0 ND OND ERRY briefly replied. He
was glad to hear that Spain was so prosperous--wht
then did not the Government enfodce the payment 0,
our soldiers who had served her, as well as the loans she
bad contracted. He totally denied that the massacres ori-
ginated on the part of Carlists, as was instanced in the
death of Cabrera's mother and Los Santos.
The Earl of CLARENDON said Los Santos was a
man who took up arms within a week after the death or
Ferdinand—he was taken, tried, and shot as any other
traitor would.

POWER OF MAGISTRATES.
The Duke of RICHMOND said, as the Secretary for
the Home Department had, in another place, said that
County Magistrates had concurrent jurisdiction with Ma-
gistrates in boroughs, in opposition to the opinion of two
Noble Lords in that House, and as it was very important
that all Lords Lieutenant should know the real state of the
law, he bogged to know from the Noble and Learned Lora
on the Woolsack, how the matter really stood. It was a most
important point, for supposing there had been a county
f
Magistrate in Birmingham, and he had refused to act,
the law was one way he would be liable to prosecution,
while, if it was the other way, he would have been liable
to prosecution if he had acted.
The LORD CHANCELLOR would take time for
inquiry before giving an opinion.
Viscount MELBOURNE would advise Noble Lords
and country gentlemen to pay but little attention to legal
opinions delivered in that House in debate.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said the matter was a veil
serious one, as the opinion was delivered in that House by
the Lord Chief Justice, and he was seconded by an ea'
Lord Chancellor.
After a few words from the Duke of WELLINGTON and
the Earl of DEVON,
The Duke of RICHMOND said he only wanted to
have the question set at rest. He thought the Secretary
of State ought to write a ciroular letter to all Lords Lieu'
tenant, informing them of the real state of the law. The
Noble Duke then presented a petition, signed in 12 hours,
by 12,000 merchants and others in London, praying for an
uniform rate of postage upon the plan of Mr. Hill. If
he had had an opportunity of presenting the petition at
an earlier period of the evening, he would have thought
it his duty to have made some observations on this subject.
Some years since lie had stated he thought the postage
ought to be reduced, because it operates as a very unequal
tax, and there had been more petitions presented on this
subject than on any other. He felt that nothing would
be more easier than for the Postmaster-General and his
officers to regulate the whole matter, but the difficulty that
was felt was, that it would cause a loss to the revenue.
He hoped before the Bill then before the House of Com-
mons was brought into their Lordships' House the fullest
information on this subject would be afforded. He should
like to know from the Government if they
had any estimote of what the number of letters
likely to be sent through the post would be? His opinion
was that the measure that had been introduced into the
other House would pass into a law ; but great care ought
to be taken that the revenue suffered as little as possible'
There ought to be a clause inserted in the Bill, preventing
oufonrt forby
trialielrocaadrriapgroepri
t
weight. If four or five times the number of letters were
ofe loertst er s.
uegxhttr a tova gba en t paid
did now. He understood the cost of carriage by the sent, they would charge four or five times more than they
Bir-
mingham Railway was more than it used to be by mail-
coaches. He was rather surprised to find the Lords of the
Treasury were to have such extensive powers by the pro-
posed Bill. By the present law any merchant might sead
out a letter by any ship, from any one of the ports, with-
out charge. He had been informed that not long since a
steamer left Liverpool, carrying eight or ten letters from
the Post-office, and many thousands from private indivi
duals. The boon given by the intended Bill would be
conferred principally on the manufacturing and commercial
interests of the country. Their business led them to write
more than the agriculturists, and therefore they would be-
nefit to a greater extent by the propased measure. Ile
thought that it was desirable that his Noble Friend at the
head of the Woods and Forests should state whether be,
was in the possessicn of the information he (the Duke el
Richmond) had mentioned, and whether he would move
for the papers, so that the country might know the' exec"„
grounds on which this measure had been proposed.
Lord DUNCANNON was afraid he could not give a
very satisfactory answer to his Noble Friend, because un-
doubtedly the measure must be taken as an experiment.
There were strongopinions on one side and the other. He
himself was persuaded that if great exertions were made
there would not be a very great deficiency. The 13"'
certainly gave great powers to the Lords of the Treasury,
but then it was necessary that they should have those powers
because there were certain regulations to be adopted
regard to pensions and so on. The Noble Duke had coke('
if any calculation had been made with respect to the amount
of letters that would be sent through the post so as to make
up the deficit likely to occur. Upon that he (Lord Dun-
cannon) could state that the only calculation he was aware
of was that of Mr. Rowland Hill. The average amount
of letters at present was 6id. ; the average amount, ac-
cording to Mr. Rowland Hill's plan, if carried out to the
fullest extent, would be lid. Consequently, if the number
of letters at present :sent through the post was taken at
eight millions—the amount required to make up the
deficiency would be four hundred millions. But cer-
tainly great exertions on the part of the Post-office
authorities would be necessary in order to carry the Act
into operation, and regulations would be required to be
adopted for the purpose of detecting frauds at present
practised on the revenue—particularly in regard to letters
sent abroad, as well as with respect to those sent by stage
coaches. When the Bill passed the greatest exertion
would be made in carrying the Act into effect, so as to
prevent fraud, and to give the greatest advantage to the
public, while care was taken that the least possible loss oc-
curred to the revenue. He regretted that nothing bad
been done when the Railroad Biils passed in regard to this
subject, but the Government would do all in their power
to prevent as little falling off in the revenue as possible.
Arter come observations from Lurd A SHBURTON,
which were totally inaudible in the gallery,
The Duke of RICHMOND inquired 'what would be
the increase of expenditure in the Post-office depart-
ment ? He believed Mr. Hill had estimated the increased
know
t2h Oc
ro,ot
101
eaGoory
e3ronom, oeonotl.
haa-dy eraerc, butei
ve dh ea
ny wished to
report
from the Postmaster- General as to what would be the
increased expenditure in the Post-office establishments?
Lord DUNCANNON said that the loss to the revenue
would be about 300,000/. Mr. R. Hill had not made any
estimate as to the additional expense, but, of course, the
extra Postmaster would have to be remunerated.
The subject then dropped.
CANADA.
The Marquis of NORMANBY, upon the understand-
ing that the discussion was to take place on going in")
Committee on Friday, moved the second reading of the
Canada Government Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had no objectieen to the
adoption of the course proposed by the Noble Marquis, pro-
vided it was understood that the principle of he Bill was
to be discussed en going into Committee.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said Onat that was the
understanding upon which he moved the second reading.
After a few observations from the Earl of RADNOR,
the Bill was read a second time, awl. ordered to be coat'
milted cn Friday.
CLERGY RESERVES.
The Marquis of NORMANBY laid on the table re'
turns relative to Clergy Reserves in Canada.
TIMBER SHIPS.
On the motion of Lord ELLENBOROUGHt the
Timber Ships Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed.

TITHE BILL.
The INl,.rquis of LANSDOWNE moved the third read-
ing of the Tithe Amendment Bill.
A discussion ensued on some particular clauses, of ilhicl3„
we were utterly unable to collect the purport, and can only
Ellen-
state that Lord Ashburton, Lord Portman, Lord