The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-19 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

tioners in S• : , ',l r. 1831, after events had changed the
ra'igning fare , . ' i'raace, were requested to leave their
convent. Has in,. r, fused to do so they were expell.'d by force,
And he believed took up their abode (as we understood the
i Noble Lord) in the South of Cornwall. A great deal of
f correspondence had taken place respecting them, and a
' question upon their case had been referred to Sir Herbert
Jenner,who was ofopinion that there was no ground whatever
i to authorise the English Government to demand compcnsa-
Nation for them from the French Government. He did not
know that there would be any objection to a production of
extracts of the documents. The whole of the de-
l`spatchea were extremely voluminous, and it might not
be expedient to make public certain parts of them. He
really could not think that any good purpose could be an•
sweied by their production, but he hoped his Noble Friend
would be content with extracts.
CHARTISTS.
Lord BRO LTG El A M rose to present a petition to their
Lordships to which he had to solicit their Lordships'
) best attention, because it involved conduct the most
i shameful he had ever heard of, and the most
! discreditable to any Government he ever knew. Having
; been one who had always contended for the
Irights of the people, when they remonstrated against
the acts of a Government, he deemed it to be the more
labsolutely his indispensable duty to state what
h© thought to be the very worst course which men
could take, with a view to obtain their own purposes,
when that course involved the safety of the public peace.
He had two petitions in his hand : the first did not so
immediately refer to the object as the second. The first
Was the petition of William Lovett, of North-place, Gray's
Inn:road, and John Collins, of Birmingham. [The
Noble and Learned Lord stated parts of the petition,
for which see oue report of the proceedings of
of the House of Commons of this day.] If Sir F. Bur-
dett, who in the same county was, within the Noble and
Learned Lord's recollection, prosecuted, tried, and con-
victed of the same offence, viz. of publishing a libel in
that county—if he had been incarcerated by warrant of
the Birmingham Justices, and carried to Warwick
gaol, the treatment which the petitioners had un-
dergone, must of course have been the lot of
of Sir F. Burdett.--(" Hear, hear," from Lord Lynd-
hurst.) He did not believe the statements in the petition
when he first real them, but the most respectable person
who had applied to him to present the petition had made
the most vigorous inquiries on the subject—subjected the
Parties to the most scrutinising investigation--and he (the
Noble Lord) A ould pledge himself to the accuracy of this most
extraordinary proceeding. Among other indignities they were
script a second time in the presence of eight persons,
onic of them in a most filthy state, compelled to wash in
the same cistern of water as those men did, and to use the
tae towel. A common felon was then ordered to crop off
f eir hair'—( Hear, hear, from Lord Lyndhurst, and a laugh
,rom some on the opposite benches.) The Noble and
1,-arned Lord was extremely mortified to perceive that such
a statement as this should produce, in any part of the House,
tokens of merriment. lie deemed it to be the most dis-
graceful conduct he had ever known ; and he was ashamed
itbelong to such a House as that, in which a statement of
would excite a smile.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He
really was ashamed to belong to any place where any set of
rnee,ti were, who could hear a detail of such indignities
uttered to their fellow-subjects, and who could consi.
der such detail a source of merriment. It could
2,,n1Y, however, be with a very few of their Lordships.
mhe petitioners stated that their shirts were taken from
em, and marked with the initials of their names,
the that they were put in a ward in which one of
e priaoners was infested with the itch, and that
for nine days they were confined in the gaol of
.Nyttravick. That they were brought into the yard to answer
meir names,
and they were examined by the doctors to
lee if they had taken the itch. The petitioners also
Stated that they were limited to the common gaol
4"°wance, and no one was allowed to supply them
With any addition. Their allowance was a small loaf
two Sorge oatmeal, arid at dinner they had about
4,.0 ounces of cheese. In addition to the common gaol
allowance they were allowed to spend threepence a day on
butter, eggs, and bacon, but they were not allowed any fire
to ,
coots them, and were obliged to eat them raw ; that
during eight ut of the twenty-four hours they were locked
ult? in a cell, and they were compelled, under the pain
theolitary confinement, to make their own beds, and to roll
~in up in 30 compact a form as totally to exclude the air,
the result of which was that when they were unrolled the
aint??l,l was most offensive. In addition to this, they were pro-
. 7 .ed from seeing any person but the gaoler, except at cer-
,' in hours ; their watches, money, and everything was taken
("Gin them, and they were not allowed to use either knife or
they No books were allowed them, nor pens or paper, and
. were not allowed to read any letters that were addressed
of ! them, until they bad been previously read by some officer
..
.the gaol. In making these statements, the petitioners
did not complain of the personal conduct of the Governor,
and •
, in conclusion, they prayed the House to take their
ease into consideration. The result, therefore, was, that
the
petitioners were detained eleven days, upon the ground
that they had not offered sufficient bail, although they had
urged that it was difficult for men in their situation to find it.
Bail, however, was tendered, but it was refused without
any inquiry being made as to its sufficiency, and when
Made it was found perfectly sufficient. Why was not that
sufficiency inquired into during those eleven day;?—( Hear. )
If any one thing was more clear than another, it was this,
that if a man was charged with a felony—not a political
offence—nay, with murder itself, no person had any right
whatever, according to the principle of law in any civilised
ccnntrY, to do more in detaining him than that which was
absolutely necessary for his safe custody. The Lord Chief
et ,Ine was in the House, and if' it was wrong, he would
to "in' right ; but here were men imprisoned, and exposed
• every indignity, not allowed to spend their own money
I.,nagetting the necessaries of life, when it did not appear
`6'rt they were to be put upon their trial, or even that a
and Jury would find a true bill against them. He
saw
much worse—much stronger language in the
tCl'spapers every day, yet the Attorney-General, or any
suer officer, never thought of prosecuting them. Would
Such treatment be likely to make persons fall in love with
Qe administration of justice, to make them more peace.
able and quiet subjects ? He thought not. The men who had
been treated with such indignity would feel themselves more
or less degraded men during the whole course of their
lives. It was in the nature of things that where those
who had shown so much vigour in executing the law
in such a case it was perfectly consistent, that they
Should be supine under other circumstances, and when
their interference might have saved bloodshed and
rapine. He had generally found that those who
were excessively anxious to enforce the law, or even
to overstep it when there was no danger, were the
most timid and supine in cases of emergency. He had
another petition connected with the same subject to pre-
sent. It was from the Chairman of the Working Men's
Association of London, complaining of the conduct of the
same Magistrates in dispersing a meeting which hid
been held in the Bull-ring two days previously.
alt was most likely that the Magistrates who had
ueen so zealous in the discharge of their duty,
when little was to be apprehended, would be
pine when they ought to have been more vigorous in
the discharge of their duty.—( Hear, hear.) It was the
bounden duty of all those who were anxious to ex-
tend the franchise by every means in their power, and
on every fitting occasion, to express their decided
TPinion and reprehension of all acts tending, in whatever
gree, to a breach of the public peace.—( Hear, hear.)
here was no enemy to the rights of the people more pe-
rilous
......
no more fatal enemy than those men who
Iti,r,Reed the people on to breaches of the peace, in
tlitnh Perils and guilty operations those very men were not
"'selves found to be engaged. They shrunk from the
danger into which their own machina'ions had driven others.
Te.
-se men oftentimes, with their pens in the press, and
wihth their tongues at public meetings, and by other
ni.entrivances, led the people to sedition and rebel-
r',". and are not found at what is called their
tler, a phrase which they are so fond of
~-*Pg• They are found skulking while they allow their
'ulaes to be the victims of their crimes. He held these
41en in utter contempt and scorn, as he looked upon their
c.oanduct with abhorrence, and he hoped and trusted
I)l.h_ t the lesson which had been lately given to some
their poor deluded dupes and victims, would teach them
slew they would again pin their faith upon such men's
%reeves. One word more respecting the consequences that
ere likely to ensue. One single act, such as had
lige a
araceu the town of Birmingham was sufficient to put
hatak the cause of Reform for a long period, if these men
really had it at heart, and not mischief which be very
much be:ieved. It was more calculated to stay the im-
provement asf tee people of that country than any acts of
°Ppression whiesh the Government and Parliament in these
times were likely !o be suffered to permit. He recollected
a saying of a Venerable and Gallant Friend of his, now
ti° more, Lord St. Vincent, than whom no man was more
distinguished. That Nobleman said that there was no
error more fatal than when the authorities, from
misplaced humanity, which he often called timidity,
abstained from taking vigorous and instant measures
to
Put down mischief and preserve the public
Peace. It was true humanity to be vigorous in sea-
!cm, and it was cruelty to the victims themselves
to, threaten when the Magistrates were called upon to act.
Ile believed that no man who knew anything of the Ma-
gistrates who were concerned in the late proceedings at
Birmingham, and he ( Lord B.) knew one of them per-
sonally and the others by character, that nothing could be
attributed to them, but an error of judgment, and however
amiable that lenity might be in private life, when a man
took upon himself the office of a Magistrate, he must
brace up his nerves with vigour. He hoped that any in-
quiry into the conduct of those gentlemen would lead to
an entire acquittal of even the venial offence of the want
of firmness, and as he understood that inquiry was about to
be proceeded with, he would say nothing more about it.
The Earl of WARWICK felt bound to soy a few words
to their Lordships. It would appear from the insinuations
thrown out as if he bad not done his duty in his official
situation, and given that support to her Majesty's Govern-
'tient which he ought. He felt perfectly satisfied that he
need not appeal to any Noble Lord in vindication cf his
character upon that point. The Noble Viscount now at
the head of her Majesty's Government was aware that
When he held the office of Home Secretary, he (the Earl
c)f Warwick) had communicated to him everything con_
neeted with the town of Birmingham. So far as his public
i'ituation was concerned, he had never allowed his private
`With
to interfere with his duty to the Government.
glad
regard to the late unfortunat.e occurrences, he was
ts",ao to find that some investigation was about to take
icil,,dee, and he hoped it would be satisfactory. He
13,11" not therefore wish to allude to the matter,
Ni t if his information was true, there were no
welfistrates present during these riots. They all knew
ti that there was blame somewhere, and the only ques.
I,,'''' Was where the blame lay. He (the Earl of W.) had
1, n censured far saying that these occurrences were a
elincig time brewing. and he had also been censured for
tu he
fault with the Government for appointing persons
wine Magistracy r.ho were so closed connected with these
ki.r„:teal unions, and some of whom were seen walking
4 le arm with the very persons who, an hour afterwards,
he
slim gaol. The Member for Birmingham denied that
what an agitator, but be (ihe Earl of W.) did not know
last ...t agitation was if he had not been agitating for the
nine or ten years. When he had been found fault with
"sea,—

for stating that her Majesty's Government htei eerie-
tioned these political unions, he thought the Neh
Lord must have misunderstood him. ( Ilsar, hear )
With respect to the appointment of Magistrates, 10 of the
old ones were retained out of 22, being four of one
party and six of the other; to which were added no less
than 13, all of one description, so that the numbers were
now 19 to 4. And this was called a fair distribution.—
( Hear.) He should move that a return of the Magis-
trates appointed since the Municipal Act was passed be
laid on the table.
Lord MELBOURNE wished to say a few words on
the subject of this petition, and on the matters stated by
the Noble Lord who had just addressed the House. It
must he evident that with respect to the petition it must
be impossible for him to contradict, deny, or give any ex-
planation whatever.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was
a petition on the part of two individuals committed in de-
fault of bail on a charge of libel; and they complainedof what
appeared to be exceedingly hard treatment. Whether the
Magistrates demanded too large a sum, or did not use due
diligence, or kept these persons too long in confinement,
were matters for the Magistrates to answer, and it was not
too much to ask of the House a little calmness and delibe-
ration, and that they would not at once pronounce an
opinion when they had heard only one side of the care. He
did not know whether the treatment complained of was ac-
cording to the regulations of the gaol or not. It certainly
seemed to be very hard, and the regulations of the gaols
appeared to border somewhat upon injustice. It should
be recollected that the object of legislation in this respect
of late years had been to equalize the law ; but whether
these measures bad not been pushed to the extent of in-
justice was quite another matter, which deserved serious
consideration. He could only say that this matter would
be inquired into—thatif grievances had been suffered all the
remedy which was possible would be applied, and all the re.
dress which was practicable would be afforded. The Noble
Lord who had just sat down had commenced his statement
by a vindication of his conduct as Lord Lieutenant of the
county of Warwick. So far as he (Lord Melbourne) had
inquired into his conduct as Lord Lieutenant, he had no
reason to speak otherwise than with praise and approbation.
The Noble and Learned Lord seemed to countenance the
opinion expressed on a former occasion, that there had
been a want of attention to their duty on the part of the
Magistrates, and that they had been guilty of negligence
and inactivity. Without going into the subject generally,
he considered it his duty to read to their Lordships a state-
ment which had been made to the Government by the
Mayor of Birmingham, and which had this morning been
received by the Secretary of State. The Noble Lord then
road the letter, which was dated Wednesday evening,
eleven o'clock, and which was of considerable length.
It stated that the Magistrates, after several days of quiet,
and thinking that Monday was a day on which the town
might require some protection, sat till five o'clock at the
public office, to consult as to the means of defence in the
case of an out-break. They received at their sitting only
two reports, one stating that a meeting was to be held at
noon, at Holloway Head, and the other that the mob in-
tended to arm themselves at night, but these reports came
before them under very vague circumstances. At five
o'clock the Magistrates adjourned, leaving word at the
public office that if there should be the slightest appear-
mice of disturbance they were to be sent for immediately.
At seven one of the Magistrates was at the public office,
but found all tranquil, and went home at half-past seven.
A gentleman saw the course of the meeting at Holloway
Head, and observed several to move towards the centre of
the town. He arrived at the Bull-ring at eight o'clock,
and at a quarter-past eight there was not the slightest
symptom of disturbance. About half-past eight the Bull-
ring began to fill, and a body of men, women,
and lads, appeared at the lower part, having come
from a place at which they expected t meet
two delegates who were to have been released from War-
wick gaol. On their arrival, the attack was begun on the
shop of Mr. Bourne, whose windows were broken. In
the meantime the Chief of the Police started off for the
house of Dr. Booth, who immediately drove to the resi-
dence of the Mayor, where he arrived at nine, and they
together went to the barracks, and about 20 minutes be-
fore 10, a considerable number of the military were in
the Bull-ring. Before that time many other Magistrates
were on the spot. The house of Mr. Bourne and another
house was found in flames, but by 12 o'clock the fire was
mainly overcome. A question had been raised why it was
not in the power of the police force to put down the dis-
turbance at the outset, and the general opinion was that
it might have been done; but Superintendent May had
stated that they were not to act without the orders of the
Magistrates. lie (the Mayor) did not recollect having sanc-
tioned any such instructions, but if there were any such they
must have been conditional on the number and force of the
mob, so as to prevent needless injury to the police and the
fatal effects of a repulse. The inferences to be drawn from
this statement was, that the Magistrates had been duly in
attendance on Monday, and on the other days since the
commencement of the disturbances, and that they went
away only when satisfied that there was no ground of fear
that the peace of the town would be disturbed, and that no
riot could be anticipated. In conclusion, the letter stated
that although every outrage bad been suppressed, it had
been done without loss of life, and was signed " William
Scholefield, Mayor." It was the intention of the Govern.
ment to institute an inquiry into the conduct of the ;Magis-
trates upon this occasion. At the same time, their Lord-
ships mould upon this as on other occasions consider the
difficult and delicate situation in which the Government
and the Magistrates were placed on occasions of this sort.
If they were a moment too quick, as they had been accused
in the first instance of being—if there was any doubt with
respect to their conduct, they would be condemned
for haste and rashness.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It
was for their Lordships, as far as they could, to support
those who were in authority, and not to bo seeking by
every means to weaken and embarrass them ; not to look
at such a question in a political point of view—not to con-
sider it with reference to what the conduct of former Ma-
gistrates had been, but to remember that the peace and
safety of the country were committed to their hands, and
that whether they should discharge their trust well and
effectually, must greatly if not entirely depend on the sup-
port they received from the Government and from Parlia-
ment.—(Cheers.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the Noble
Viscount had been so full of his eulogy of the conduct of
the Magistrates—of his deprecation on the part of their
Lordships of any blame of the conduct of the Mayor and
Magistrates of Birmingham, and of his gratifi-
cation in having seized the exact opportune mo-
ment for interference, that he had entirely neg-
lected to allude to the reason of the ignorance of the
state of Birmingham in which his Noble Friend the Lord
Lieutenant of that county had been kept. Her Majesty's
Ministers had last year thought proper to make Birming-
ham an incorporated town, and that being so, the appoint-
ment of its Magistrates rested entirely with her Majesty
according to the Act of Parliament, no one interfering
with her Majesty in that appointment except the Noble
and Learned Lord on the Woolsack ; yet in defiance of that
Act of Parliament her Majesty's present Ministers had
taken upon themselves to appoint those Magistrates, and
for their conduct they must be responsible. He was not
surprised that the Noble Viscount should be so
exceedingly anxious that the House should not pro-
nounce any opinion upon the proceedings of the
Magistrates, inasmuch as their conduct was to be
inquired into. When this subject was discussed on the
former occasion, the Noble Viscount hesitated not to in-
sinuate that it might be the fault of the troops that this
riot was allowed to be proceeded in ; and to support that
insinuation the Noble Viscount instanced the conduct of
yeomanry who had forborne to act some years ago, when
the castle at Nottingham was burnt, although the troops on
that occasion obeyed the law by refraining to act until they
were ordered to do so by a Magistrate. The Mayor from
his account bad stated that there had been no reason to
apprehend a riot. Now he (the Noble Duke) had heard
that a person had gone through the town in the middle of
the day ringing a bell—(Hear, hear.)—guarded by 12
men with bludgeons, and in the vicinity of this very public
office also, giving notice of the intention to assemble
on that very day —( Hear, hear.) Under these circum-
stances he thought it would be difficult to say how the
Mayer could be free from blame. But there was one
other thing that he must notice—the Town Clerk of the
Magistrates, who everybody knew was the officer of this
very Bench of Justices, was present to defend, upon
that very night, one of the parties who had been taken
up charged with being concerned in this riot.—( Hear,
hear.) He hoped a proper inquiry would be imme-
diately instituted, and that the House would be immedi-
ately acquainted with the result.
The Earl of WARWICK said that he had had four or
five statements from Birmingham which, in reference to the
presence of the Magistrates, was diametrically contrary to
toe account given by the Mayor. The bellman went
round giving notice that the meeting would take
place in the evening. Notes were sent to the Ma-
fistrates, but no Magistrates were on the spot. One
.pecial constable saw a Magistrate, and told him that if
he, the Magistrate, would give him authority, he would
himself head the police, and interfere to disperse the mob;
but that Magistrate told him that strict orders had been
given that the police should on no account interfere, un-
less by the order of two Magistrates. He hoped with the
Noble Duke, that at the earliest opportunity a full inquiry
into the circumstances would take place.
Lord L YND HURST could not allow the present op-
portunity to pass without making a few observations. He
did not think it right to enter into any detail with respect
to the conduct of the Magistrates. They were upon their
trial—( Hear)—and therefore he should not think it fair to
enter into that part of the subject. But he must say,
with reference to what he had heard and seen, that
he thought her Majesty's Ministers highly responsible
for the transactions which had taken place.—( Hear, hear.)
Let him call back the recollection of their Lordships to
what had taken place in the months of September and
October last—to the Chartist meetings that were held
in every part of the country, of which no notice, or at
least no unfavourable notice, had been taken by her Ma-
jesty's Government. Upon these occasions great multi-
tudes assembled, and the most inflammatory and seditious
language was used—the parties there publicly threatening
to make use of physical force, for the redress of what they
were pleased to call their grievances.—(Cheers.) The
whole society of this great city was astonished at the
supineness of her Majesty's Minivers.—(Loud cheers.)
But there was a circumstance which occurred at that

time that excited still further astonishment, because at the
very period when those meetings were held day after day,
and particularly in the northern part of this island, one of
her Majesty's Cabinet Ministers, he who presided over the
domestic transactions of this country, at a public meeting
held at Liverpool, made a speech, which he muit say in
its scope and tendency was calculated to give encourage-
ment to those meetings.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If at a
public meeting, such as he had described, a Minister of the
Crown had thought proper to advert to to those proceed-
ings, it ought to have been his duty to have adverted to
them in strong terms of condemnation. —( Much cheering. )
Instead of that, those who adverted to the language of
that noble individual at that time, must agree witChim,
that the whole scope of his speech was such
as tO give encouragement te the actors. He did not say
that the speech of the Noble Lord, to whore he had alluded,
if made in times, of calmness and of peace, should not be
considered as tree from blame; but when the Noble Vis-
count had said in the course of the discussion of this even-