The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-11 00:00:00

tefence of the present system ? No such defence had up to
.bat moment been attempted by any one, and yet they were
,ow, in point of fact, called on to adopt a course e hich would
lave the effect of continuing that which no one denied was
;orrupt.—(Hear.) To such a proposition he could not give
its assent ; but he, and those who sat on his s'de of the
louse, had the consolation to know that the question was only
ne of time and expediency ; that it was one which would ulti-
mately be carried. The Hon. Gentlemen opposite would not
'How those who had achieved Municipal Reform for England
and Scotland to have the honour and pleasure of also accons-
dishing Irish Municipal Reform. But, although they were
opposed to the passing of this Bill, it was quite clear that they
were themselves prepared to carry a similar measure.--(Hear,
near, from the Ministerial benches, and laughter.) It was ad-
.nitted by the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire,
se well as by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Cambridge, that if this measure were not carried
ny those on his side of the House, it would by those on theirs ;
but lie should like to know whether the result would be the same
o the Hon. Gentlemen opposite ?—( Hear, hear.) With such
s determination he would put it to the House whether it was
fair on their part to oppose a measure one day which they
would carry the next Hear, hear.) That, however, was
the track which, under their present guidance, they were pur-
suing; and although they had come down now to oppose this
measure, they might by-and-by be called upon to come down
to support it. Their argument was that this was not the time
for carrying such a measure, and that until they saw what was
to be done with regard to the Church, Ireland was to have no
corporations. In the previous discussions no suggestion with
respect to danger to the Chnreh had been thrown out ; and it
was not until last year, when the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Cumberlaed applied the magical influence of his
glass to the subject, that any thing connected with the Church
was mixed up with it. This far and clear-sighted gentleman
had no objection to the measure except that which was
founded on the religion of the Irish people ; but how was
his argument treated when he first brought it forward ?
Why, it was generally scouted by the House. If, how-
ever, the Church really were in danger, would not that
danger be rather aggravated than obviated by disappointing
the wishes of the people of Ireland ? As an Irishman, he
must say that those who opposed this Bill little knew the cha-
racter of ,his countrymen. They were a sensitive people, and
although they might indure injustice and wrong they would
not easily forget insult. The rejection of this measure they
would regard as an insult, because it would be a direct attack
on the religion of the majority.—( Hear.) After reforms had
been effected in the municipal institutions of England and
Scotland, was it fair or wise to call on them to continue a
system in Ireland which was not denied to be an evil ? Such
conduct he must declare, to say the least of it, was not defen-
sible. Now, the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire
had raised objections to certain parts of this Bill ; but was
it fair to allow it to go through a Committee, where alone
such objections could be dealt with, without over-urging
those objections ?—( Hear, hear.) The truth, however, was,
that they were fighting for a great principle—( Hear, hear,
and laughter)—as it was clear that if this Bill were not
carried by them it would be carried by the Honourable Gen-
tlemen opposite if they succeeded in returning to power._
(Renewed cries of hear, hear, and laughter.) He should
like to know how the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, even if they
got back to office, would govern Ireland ? The question was,
could that country be best governed by placing confidence in
the people, or by distrusting them ? He entertained the for-
mer opinion, and he was satisfied that if the Irish people were
treated by the Government with distrust no system of coercion
would be available. But it was evident that, even if the ob-
jections of the Noble Lord were good for anything, they came
too late, as the Bill of 1829 gave a power to the people
which could not be wrested from them.—( Hear, hear.) Did
Hon. Gentlemen opposite forget the speeches v% hich had been
delivered by Hon. Members from their own benches ? What
had the Right Hon. Member for Cavan told them ? Why,
that if they did net reject this Bill sixty or seventy more
Members in the Liberal interest would be returned by the new
corporations of Ireland. It was clear, then, that the Hon.
Gentlemen opposite meant to treat the people of Ireland with
nothing but distrust—a distrust that was founded on the re-
ligion which they and their forefathers professed. Did they
really think that if such a policy were pursued, the Government
could be carried on, or the functions of the Legislature adminis-
tered ? Well, but they gave them an alternative. He would
not discuss that alternative at present, because it had nothing
to do with the question before the House, which was the pas-
sing or rejecting of this Bill. If, after they had refused to
grant Corporations to Ireland, they were to allow the towns of
that country to be governed under the provisions of the Act of
the 9th Gco. IV., what would be the consequence ? Why,
they might talk of normal schools as long as they pleased, but
he believed that the Commissioners who would be elected
under that Act would be more active for the purposes of mis-
chief and agitation than those who would be chosen as mem-
bers of the Corporations which they proposed simply because
they would owe their election to a sense of injustice.—( Hear.)
There was another subject to which he felt q necessary to ad-
vert. He had heard it used as an argument against the mea-
sure that it was not carried by the votes of the English Mem-
bers, but that its success was owing to the voices of the Irish
Representatives.—( Hear, hear.) Now he had always refused
to admit that argument in Parliament. He had ale ays re-
fused to admit that there was any distinction to be drawn be-
tween the Members of that House, no matter what country
they might happen to represent, because, by admitting this,
they at once furnished an argument for a repeal of the Union,
an argument inconsistent with every principle of justice and
fair reasoning, and with the courtesy which ought always to
subsist amongst gentlemen. But, he would ask, did that ar-
gument apply to the present question? Had not the repre-
sentatives of England and Scotland, as well as the representa-
tives of Ireland, voted in favour of die measure ? This could
not be denied, and therefore the opponents of the Bill were
driven to select another question upon which they thought
they were strong enough to raise a cry which they bad before
reised against some Hon. Friends of his whom he saw oppo-
site—a cry which was raised upon the present occasion with
just as much justice and with as little discernment as it was
then. But his Hon. Friends knew full well that there were
on that (the Ministerial) side of the House friends with whom
they once acted (and he would appeal with confidence to
their testimony) who entertained as strong an attachment to
the Church of Ireland, and as anxious a desire to promote its
interests, as themselves. There was, however, this difference
between them, admitting both to be equally anxious for the
interests of the Church, that they (the Ministcrialists) knew
much more about Ireland than their Hon. Friends oppo-
site. They knew the danger of refusing justice to the peo-
ple of that country, and they also knew that if that jus-
tice was impeded by a cry of " The Church in danger" it
would have the effect of raising a hostility against the Church
which might lead to the most serious results. There was an.
other argument which he felt himself called upon to notice,
and never was a more trumpery argument. It had been
said that three measures had been recommended in the Speech
from the Throne at the opening of Parliament as necessary to
promote the welfare of Ireland, namely, Poor Laws, Irish
Municipal Reform, and an adjustment of the Tithe question,
and it had been argued, because these three measures were
contained in one and the same paragraph of the Speech, that,
therefore, they would not discuss one of these questions as a
separate measure.—( Hear, hear.) Now he would ask, was
there any necessary connection between the Poor-law question
and the one before the House, and also whether there was any
connection between that measure and the Tithe question ?
( Hear, hear.) lie could assure the Hon. Gentlemen opposite
that Government would not shrink from the Tithe question,
and that they would be afforded an opportunity of discussing a
measure for its adjustment during the present Session. They
(the Ministerialists) said justice could be done to the cities
and towns of Ireland without leading the House into
a discussion on the Irish Church. It had been said that they
could not establish corporations in Ireland without great po-
litical danger, and that the power of the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny woud be greatly increased by the establishment of such
corporations. The Hon. Member was, it was said, a very
powerful man ; but he would tell those who complained of his
power that it was themselves who made him powerful. An ob-
servation,, said to have been used by that Hon. Member, had
frequently been referred to—" Give me the Municipal Reform
Bill, and I will carry every thing else." ,But ho would say,
give that Hon. Member but one popular grievance, and they
would enable him to do more.—( Hear.) Reject that Bill, and
they would give him a greater lever to act upon the public
mind than any which he had hitherto possessed. The effect of
granting Corporations to the people of -Ireland would be to
draw their attention to their own local affairs. They would
not then trouble themselves much about the speeches of
Honourable Gentlemen on either side of the House, but
they would apply themselves with diligence to improve the
general condition of the country, and to provide for the
wants of their several localities. The Hon. Member for
Liskeard had touched upon what he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) conceived the philosophy of the question, and if the
doctrine he laid down was true on a general principle it was
doubly true with regard to Ireland. They had estranged the
people of that country from the education which would have
made them the fit depositories for political power. The spirit
of the age had compelled them to knock off a portion of their
chains, and they would strike with the remaining fetter until
full and ample justice had been wrung from them. The Hon.
Member for the University of Cambridge had referred to the
reasons of the House of Lords for refusing to pass this Bill on
a former occasion as an argument against it on the present
one. But he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would also
refer to these reasons as an answer to the Right Honourable
Gentleman's objections. In these reasons their Lordships
held out the right hand of fellowship to the House of Com-
mons, amid although they could not agree to the proposition en
that occasion, yet still they held out a prospect that they
would do so on some future one. Were they, then, to de-
prive them of their power of carrying those amicable feelings
into effect ? Were they to refuse them the opportunity of
passing the present Bill ? For his part he was determined to
resist any proposition which would deprive them of their own
free agency.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was impossible for him
to sit down without alluding to a • document which had ap-
peared some time back in the public prints, signed by an Hon.
Member of that House, who was certainly no friend of theirs
(the Ministerialists). He alluded to an address published by
the Hon. Member for Derbyshire ( Sir George Crewe), in
which he acknowledged the full claims of Ireland to munici-
pal institutions. [The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the
address published by the Honourable Member alluded to,
and asked if Honourable Members opposite, however they
might differ from him upon some points, could conscientious-
ly say that the claims of the people of Ireland were not
based in justice.]—(Hear, hear, hear.) He knew that many
Hon. Gentlemen differed with them on the Church question.
On that let them take their stand, but on a question of civil
rights let them not refuse to do justice. lie would venture to
appear for five -minutes before them in the capacity of a wit-
ness. He was an old municipal reformer, perhaps the first
who struggled for Irish Municipal Reform in that House. Ile

fought its battle against the Government of the time, and he
was happy to say he fought it successfully. The result of that
struggle was that Limerick was opened. The inhabitants,
Protestant as well as Catholic, applied for a remedial measure
of legislation. The same objections were urged against that
measure as were then put forward against the present Bill.
They were told, if you admit Roman Catholics into the Cor-
poration of Limerick the peace of the town cannot be main-
tained, and a general, officer was produced before a Committee
of that House to prove that all the troops under his command
would be insufficient for that purpose if the Bill passed. Well,
the Bill passed, and what was the result ? The town conti-
nued as tranquil and as peaceable as it did at any period be-
fore that event took place ; and the only difficulty they now
found was to get a sufficient number of persons within the lo-
cality, to attend to the affairs of the- Corporation.—( Hear,
hear.) This one point, derived from his own experience,
was worth all the arguments which had been advanced
on the ground of anticipated danger. He would remind the
House of what they were called upon to do. They were
called upon to abolish those ancient institutions which were
almost as old as the history of the country ; and to deprive the
country of all share in the management of their own affairs.
He believed the earliest charters were granted in the reign of
King John. Since that period they had gone through many
experiments, had seen many changes and vicissitudes. They
had suffered under the iron rule of a Crotnwell ; but neither
Cromwell nor Strafford attempted to interfere with the muni-
cipal rights of the people. He trusted, therefore, they would
now stand firm to the measure, for sooner or later it must be
carried. It was impossible that a question supported by a
majority of from 60 to 80 Members of that House could much
longer be resisted, and a day was coming when they would see
those who now opposed the Bill amongst its strenuous sup-
porters.—( Cheers.)
Mr. F. SHAW rose amidst loud and continued cries of
" Question" and " Divide." He felt the lateness of the
hour, and the inconvenience of continuing the debate ; but he
could not allow some of the fallacies of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman who had just sat down to remain unanswered.
Notwithstanding all that had been said upon the subject, he
could not help thinking that the real nature of the proposition
made by the Government was not thoroughly understood
either by that House or by a great portion of the kingdom.
Neither did he think that the character and limited extent
of the opposition to it was rightly comprehended. The lead-
ing fallacy in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech was this—
he said to the opposition, " You are reduced to this dilemma,
either you must pass the measure in the shape in which it is
now proposed to you, or you will be the party responsible for
keeping still alive the Corporations which you yourselves ad-
mit are so corrupt that they ought to be abolished." That was
not a fair statement of the argument. They (the Opposition)
said that they were willing, under all the circumstances, to give
up the exclusive privileges of the existing Corporations. They
never admitted the corruption of the Corporations of Ireland ;
they admitted only the exclusiveness of them.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) They admitted that in the altered circumstances of
the country, it might be unfair that these exclusive
Corporations should continue to exist even in the hands
of their own friends—the supporters of the Church and
Constitution ; but at the same time that they made that ad-
mission they declared that it would be a 'ereater evil to transfer
these exclusive privileges into the hands of those who were
notoriously and avowedly hostile to the Established Church.—
(Hear ) The real point of difference between them (the
Opposition) and the Government was this : they were willing
to surrender these old municipal and religious privileges, but
they were not willing to transfer them.—[Here the interrup-
tions to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech became so
loud and frequent as to render him totally inaudible in the
gallery.l In conclusion he entreated the Government, in-
stead of introducing measures like the present, calculated to
increase and perpetuate agitation, to come forward with mea-
sures of real relief to Ireland fur making a provision for the
destitute poor of that country, and to draw out the real re-
sources of Ireland ; and when it was manifest that they were
not brought forward fur any party purpose, he and those with
whom he acted would cordially support them.—( Loud cries of
" Question," and " Divide.")
Mr. O'CONNE LL rose amid loud cries of " Withdraw,'
and " Divide," and hp resumed his seat.
Mr. BROTHERTON moved the adjournment of the de
bate ;, and the House divided. The numbers were—
For the adjournment 286

Against it

232

Majority for the adjournment -54
The debate was accordingly adjourned till to-morrow (this
day). The House was proceeding with the other Orders of
the day, when

Colonel SIBTHORP rose and said, he was very much
surprised at the conduct of the Noble Lord opposite in sanc-
tioning the motion of the Hon. Member for Salford. —(Loud
cries of Oh, oh, and Question.) He could well understand
that the Noble Lord, like any other drowning► man, was glad
to catch hold of every straw that was offered to him in his dis-
tress ; but be should really have thought the Noble Lord pos-
sessed greater magnanimity than to resort to such a subter-
fuge as this on the present occasion. —( Renewed cries of
Question, and great confusion.) lie (Colonel Sibthorp)
thought he was speaking to the question.
The SPEAKER said, that the question was, that a Bill
on the table be engrossed.—(Laughter.)
Colonel SIBTHORP would bow to the decision of the
Chair. He would only add, that he for one never envied the

situation of the Noble Lord and his colleagues ; and the
sooner they were out of their places the better. —( Laughter. )
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at One o'Clock.

DISTRESS IN THE SILK TRADE.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

SlR,—Allow me to su,:gest a remedy for the distress now
prevalent in this trade, which does not require any active effort
of charity, but is simply this,—that all persons in want of any
articles, no matter of how little value—a hankerchief or a yard
of silk—should buy et once. From my knowledge of the
small stock of manufactured goods, I will venture to say that
a brisk demand among the shopkeepers for one week would
put every loam in Spitalficlds in active operation, vnd restore
food and comfort to many a starving weaver. Even on the
score of economy, this is feasible; for persons cannot expect
to buy goods cheaper than when silk is selling at nearly half
its cost in China, and weavers are willing to work for any
wages they can get.
I am, Sir, your most obedient Servant.
Spitalfields, April 10, 1837. A MANUFACTURER.

THE QUEEN.—Petticoat politicians are the bane of
a Court, and in regard to Lord Melbourne's dismissal, it is
well known " the Queen did it all."—Times, 1834. What
a miserable scoundrel must that man be who would impute to
our Gracious Queen the slightest interference with political
matters ? It is an established fact, that her Majesty is uninter-
ruptedly engaged solely in the exercise of her private virtues.
—Times, 1837.

TIIE PEERS.—The Peers are to be considered as
old and useless lumber, and it is high time that they were
deprived of the means of doing mischief.—Times, 1834. The
Lords have saved the country by their wisdom and firmness.
It is, indeed, an established fact that their usefulness to the
State was never so gloriously manifested as at the present
time.— Times, 1837.

PEEL AND LYNDHURST.—NO man, with the
least comprehension, would pronounce Sir R. Peel a9ything
but a shallow-pated red tapist, and Lord Lyndhurst a de-
signing knave.—Times, 1834. He must indeed be either an
arrant knave or a fool, who denies the established fact
that Sir Robert Peel is the greatest of living statesmen, and
that Baron Lyndhurst is the most honest and learned poli-
tician of his time.—Times, 1837.

OXFORD UNIVERSITY.—The monks at Oxfoid
are the most narrow-minded of ecclesiastics. It is time that
they should begin to set their house in order, for the hand
of sound and sweeping reform is now approaching them.
—Times, 1834. The pious and learned divines of the
University of Oxford are the true bulwarks of Christianity.
It is an established fact, beyond all doubt,•that to their liberal
feelings it is owing that all religious disabilities have been re-
moved Times, 1837.

•
CHURCH-RATES.—What arc Church-rates but the
most nefarious exactions when levelled against our Dissenting
brethren ? The Almighty has left man's conscience free, and it
is therefore a robbely in the eyes of Heaven to extort from a
man support for that creed which he does not believe.— Times,
1834.—The unholy war against the payment of Church-rates
amongst low Radicals and Dissenters amounts almost to sedi-
tion and blasphemy. Those who choose to secede from our
Established Church—and it is an established fact that it is the
only true Church—ought to be made to pay the penalty for their
backsliding.— Times, 1837.
CONS ERVA VES.—What are the Conservatives
but the most inveterate obstructives ? What do they seek to
gain but power at the expense of honour, justice, and the wel-
fare of the people ? Times, 1834.--We rejoice at finding the
cause of Conservatism so rapidly advancing ; we could almost
assert that the, spirit of Providence is directly visible in that
advancement. It is an established fact that the Conservatives
have ever been eager to promote all such Reforms as tend to
the beßefit and happiness of the community.— Times, 1837.
We observe a new naval novel announced by the
clever author of " Cavendish," under the name of " Gentle-
man Jack." It is reported that it will contain portraitures
and anecdotes of almost every distinguished officer in the last
war.

HUMAN LIFE, BY THE AUTHOR OF " TRE-
mAINE."—In these Illustrations of Human Life the author
has been less liberal of the adornments and attractions of a st•oy
than in the composition of" Tremaine." Still we do not he-
sitate to say that in each of these sketches we experience no
want of more company or more events. From the circumstance
of the author's al ways accomplishing with a staid and unmisgiving
mastery of purpose whatever he aims at performing, and of his
making us fuel that the speakers on either side are in earnest,
we are insensibly drawn on to read until vie entirely forget that
the subject has none of the excitements of any ordinary ro-
mance, and demands the exercise of the finest powers of
thought the reader may happen to possess.

The Lord Lieutenancy of the county of Somerset is
vacant by the death of the Marquis of Bath, and to Lord Mel:
bourne's Government has fallen the important duty of appoint-
ing to that influential office. Of course they will
select only a nobleman or gentleman whose liberality of opinion
will be a guarantee to the people of Somerset, that henceforth
their Magistrates will not be selected from the most hostile of
the ranks of their opponents, but the Bench will number such
an array of liberal gentlemen as shall bear some proportion to
the overwhelming majority in favour of liberal principles,
which exists among the community of the county.—Somerset
County Gazette.