The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-16 00:00:00

.49 e

', difficulty. Whatever surplus then' :iight be of isle, ne
I over expenditure ought, in his opiiiiiin, to be reducer( in
taxation. He never approved of the application of sieth
surplus to the reduction of the national debt. He leotard
at that debt as a perpetual annuity; and he was t.nieVineel,
that if, as he believed, by repealing t.aes, the geneiral
wealth of the country would ls noire increased than the
Idebt wreild be diminished by their continuance, good
I policy dictated that the amount of tire taxes sheath! be left
lin the pockets of the people. The Right Hon. Gentle:flan
had said that, un:ler the present circumstances cif the cowl-
, try, Government felt called upon to run some risk on the
I question of revenue. He (Lord Althorp) wished that
I they had run further risk. He wished that they had re-
duced other taxes; the reduction of which he was per-
suaded would have benehtted rather than injured the re-
venue. By reducing the taxes to which he alluded a
spring would be give.,
i to industry that in its effect would more than
thin in the first.
entertained •
, instance. Such were the views which he
r'ompensate to the revenue for its dirnieiu-
"on the subject. He approved of the reduction
as far as - .
it went ; but be regretted that it had not gone
fu raw
, . r ; he regretted that more general and extensive
I's' ws had not suggested to his Majesty's Ministers the ex.
pediency of looking at the subject in a more enlarged view,
• and of proposing a more general measure of reduction.
Mr. ROBINSON followed—Nothing which he lead
heard from the Right Host, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would have the effect of inducing him to relin.
quish his intended proposition en Friday next, to make a
more extensive reduction of those taxes which pressed on
the productive industry of the country, and to supply any
deficiency which might thereby be occasioned in the reve-
nue by an equitable assessment on property.
Mr. HUME was anxious to say a few words, after
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Callington, be-
cause he thought that that lion. Gent. had' taken a very
unfair view of the statement of the Right Hen. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer; and had expressed fears
with respect to the injury that statement was calculated to
effect on public credit, • which fears he (Mr. Hume) did
not believe existed in any other mind but the Hon. Gent's.
own. If there was any subject which less than any
other he should have expected to be agitated that evening,
it was the Sinking Fund—a topic which had long been
dead and buried. ' The Hon.- Member for Callington had,
however, quoted the speeches of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox,
in support of a system now admitted on all hands to be
altogether fallacious. The idea of any person's paying his
debts by borrowing on his own security, was now allowed
by every body to be perfectly impracticable; and yet if the I
Hon. Member for Callington did not advocate that prin-
ciple, it was difficult to see bow he could advocate the
Sinking Fund. Last year the more enlightened principle
had been fully admitted and established, that the surplus
of the revenue applied to the discharge of the debt was the
only legitimate Sinking Fund. He entertained no such
feats as those expressed by the Hon. Member for Calling-
ton, who, be thought, had been rather hard on the Right
Hon. Gent. in stating that he was the first Chancellor of
the Exchequer who had taken away the credit of the
country. He (Mr. Hume) was persuaded that if
the Right Honourable Gentleman had gone further,
_ _ .

and had, according to his (Mr. Hume's) proposition,
reduced two millions snore of taxation, he would have
done mote to support public credit than by diminishing the
debt to that amount. However, no taxes could have been
more judiciously selected for reduction. Tue free sale of
beer would be highly advantageous to the people ; and Le
was persuaded that the night Hon. Gentleman had by no

_. .
1 means over-estimated the benefit. In the article of leather
I also, great advantages would result from the repeal of the
tax. It would relieve the trade from the monopolists..
The regulations of the excise with respect to the leather
trade were so severe that scarcely any one could escape,
and the number of persons engaged in it watt, therefore,
I very limited. The repeal of the tax would increase that
' number, and the public would benefit by the consequent
competition. Still he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman
might have gone a great deal further; and he perfectly
agreed with his Noble Friend and the Hon. Member for
Northampton, that the same amount of taxation which at
present existed might be imposed with a quarter of the
Ipressure on the people, if it were removed from articles of
11 productive industry. '1 he Noble Lord
.(Althorp) had cor-
randy misumerstood the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for
1 the Right Hon. Gentleman was not averse to any change
of taxes that might be beneficial. All lie had said was,
that the subject had not entered into his present plan. He
I (Sir. Hume) could not but contemplate that the Right
j Hon. Gentleman would give his assistance to the Hon.
I Member for Dover, in his efforts to show what taxes could
be reduced or repealed, and laid on other items with a view
I of benefitting trade, and alleviating the burthsns of the
people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had not said
one word upon the important changes that might be
made in this respect; but it was not to he inferred front
that that he was averse to such changes. The Right Hon.
Gentleman proposed for the present year to take off the
duty on beer, to the amount of 750,0001., and on leather,
to the amount of 100,000/.—making in both a relief of
950,000/. ; but there was to he an additional tax put on
to the amount of 400,0001., so that the net reduction
would be 550,000/. With this relief there would be left
in the Treasury a surplus of 2,170,0001. So far from
applying this amount of surplus, as the Honour-
able Member for Callington recommended, to the
reduction of the Three per Cents., he ought to proceed,
in the present state of the country, to give a relief to taxa-
tion to that extent. He held in his hand a statement of all
taxation repealed since the termination of the war in
1816 ; but not including the 18,000,0001. repealed in
1816. Since that period there had been repealed (de-
ducting the 3,000,0001. added in 1819) 9,234,000/. '
This had been taken off between 1818 and 1825, and he
would compare it to the results of receipts into the Ex-
chequer, in order to show that there could he no fear of a
deficiency of receipts in the ensuing year owing to the
reductions at this moment proposed. In 1817 the amount
of taxation was 57,650,000/., and 9,234,0001. had been
repealed. The revenue last year had been 55,900,000/.,
which, deducted from 57,650,000/., the revenue of 1817
showed a deficiency of 1,750,000/. ; and the House would
thus see, that although 9,231,000/. of taxes had been
repealed, it had only occasioned a deficiency of revenue to
the extent of 1,750,000/. If, therefore, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had taken off more taxes this year, he yet
might have expected a sufficient receipt next year to meet
the whole of his reductions. The Right Hon. Gentleman
did not sufficiently consider the si'uation of the country,
or he would have given a more extensive and instantane-
ous relief than he had proposed ; and he had no difficulty
in stating that he might have reduced a little more. The
Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have taken off the coal
tax of 500,0001, and the amount of the candle tax ; and
not a poor man in the country who would not have been
benefitted by this arrangement, fer coals and candles en-
tered largely into every man's expenditure; and the total
relief of the two taxes would have amounted to
1,300,0001. He trusted that Government would make a
further reduction in the military establishments, for the
mount of the Estimares for the Army, Navy, and Ord-
nance, was 16,580,000/., which was 500,0001. more
than in the years 1821 and 1822. The Chancelior of the
Exchequer had not taken credit for the savings of the
expenses of collecting the revenue, which would have
left a surplus of 1,500,0001. in the Treasury. lie was
quite satisfied that more extensive relief could be afforded,
and that it ought to be tasseled promptly ; and he had
only to regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
had gone so far to meat the approbation GE the country (as
far as any he remembered), should not have gone far ] ,
enough, and have trusted more to those chances of the
revenue not being decreaied which he (Mr. Hume) had
stated. He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would i ,
snake an additional reduction of 2,000,000/. in the course ]
of the Session. ` I i

Mr. CHARLES BARCLAY said, that the beer tax
added very materially to the price of the beer, and it was
a serious evil to the country, and he v.,as very glad to see
it removed. He should take the revsent opportunity of
stating, that with respect to the resolutions upon the licens.
ink system, he thought the measure now proposed would
do away, in a great degree, with the objections which in-
dividuals concerned in the trade had felt to the former sys-
tem. In his opinion the exposition of the Right Hon.
Gentleroan'was wise, and the country would not be dis-
appointed. The measure proposed would place the com-
munity on au equal footing, and the increased consumption
of malt which would arise from the taking off the beer tax
would satisfy the country gentlemen. The demand for
barley had decreased in the last year, and he now hoped
that it would increase to the benefit of the agricultural in-
terests. He was happy to say that he had not the least
objection to the measure' proposed, and the: brewers had
concurred in it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MABERLY—The Right Hon. Gentleman had ;
stated to the House that there had been a surphis revenue
of 2,700,000/., and that he would reduce it, by a repeal of
taxes, to 2,000,000/: ; and the question that remained
was, whether he bad applied himself to those taxes which
it was most judicious to reduce. None certainly could be
more beneficially reduced than the beer duty. This was
a wise measure—one of principle—for the beer tax was •
an unequal tax, it was an unjust tax, and therefore ought
to be relieved. The neat T.,Auction was upon leather—a
rate'rvialhliey tool
which greatly
enhanced the price of the article, and
i'l the way of improvements in the trade.
He now came to the question, whether in the subsequent ,
year there would be the loss of revenue which the Right

Hon. Gentleniatt ha I expected ? The Hon. Member for
,
Callington seeeesi to think that the Chancellor of the ix-
chequer Was in error, in leaving only 2,000,0001. as a ba-
lance, for he apprehended that next year there would bs no
such balance, and that consequently public credit would IT
!injured. Ile (Mr. Alaherlv) thought there was no groam;
I fel- this apprehensiou, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer
!ought to have kept out of view all those arguments &lout
la Siehing Fund, as ho had hitherto always declared them
to be fdlats;eus. The. Right lion. Gentleman's balance
;of 2.000,000/. would be a much larger bone fide Sinking
Fund than when it had been estimated at 15,000,0001. :
and public credit would in future be higher than when the
fallacy of the Sinking Fund had been kept up. The Right
lion. Gent., he thought, was perfectly right in
.raising
the duties upon spirits, notwithstanding that this increase
might have the effect of encouraging smuggling, with,all
its demoralising effects ; for the use of spirits by the poor
was still more demoralising ; and of the two evils the point
was to choose the least. With reference to the Four per
Cents. the Government would be wrong not to adopt such
a measure at the present rate of interest ; but the question
was, whether they ought to expedite the business. If any.
war was likely to disturb the country, it would notsbe fair
to reduce the rates of interest ; lint in the absence of any
such apprehension, it was perfectly fair. The Right Hon.
Gent. was entitled to guard himself against an unfavour-
able harvest ; but he had not made a sufficient provision
for the harvest being favourable. He was satisfied that
the Right Hon. Gent's. Budget was the best he had ever
seen, for the Right lion. Gent, had traveled over the
whole business of taxation upon principle, and his speech
had conveyed to him in very strong terms a desire to lock
into every part of the expenditure during the recess, and
to look into the superannuation, which of all things re-
quired the greatest attention upon the part of Government.
The Right Hon. Gent. had told the House to anticipate
next year a reduction of Estimates ; but he thought that
the Right Hon. Gent. might have effected greater reduc-
tions in the present year. There was no pretence what-
ever to keep up 5,000 Marines, when it ha-I been stated
by competent authority that 1,000 would be enough. A
large proportion of the army might be reduced. With
reference to the reduction of the debt, he would recom-
mend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to attempt the
plan of Mr. Brickwood, for he was convinced that it was
the best mode of reducing a debt that could be suggested.
Hs was sorry to say that gentlemen in that House would
not vote for reductions, though they were always ready to
vote for extravagant expenditure; and yet until the esti-
mates were reduced to a much lower scale, it was in vain
to expect a larger reduction in the taxes.
Mr. BERNAL could repose some confidence in the
promises held out to the House by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, because he had not, like his predecessors, at-
tempted to mystify the subject, and he was not ashamed
of acknowledging the situation of the country, when he
held out the hope of affording it tellef. He well knew
that the House hail a great many conflicting interests to
satisfy, but considering all parts of the subject, he must
be excused for saying that he had expected that the Right
Hon. Gentleman would have been able to afford some little
relief to the must suffering of all interests—the West India
interests. He did trust that the Right Hon. Gentleman
would he able to relieve some of the burthens under which
.the colonial interests had so long suffered. With respect
to the spirit duties, why could not the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman place the British and West India spirits on the
saute footing ? The West India interests were at the
lowest ebb possible. But why were not Irish and Seotch
spirits put upon a footing with British and West India ?
Three shillings were the duty upon spirits in Scotland and
Ireland, whilst eight shillings was the duty upon ruin.
This he thought was trenching upon justice. The West
India interests were entitled to a reduction upon sugar, but
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not alluded to the
subject. This certainly was not the time to enter into any
details of time British West India interests, but the time
would he soon afforded when he should have the opportu-
nity of explaining to the House the state of the question,
and he hoped to convince all who heard him that the
amount of duty collected by the Government upon sugar
and rum was enormous, and that the state of properties in
the West Indies was unable to ply the imposition, and to
make any returns to the owners. If the present rate of
duties were to continue the same for another year, the
revenue would suffer; for the estates, he was fully con-
vinced, would be thrown out of cultivation. In the old
Colonies—such as Jamaica—it was impossible to carry on
the cultivation much longer. .In the new Colonies, where
the soil was better, or less worked, it might be possible.
He would make a statement to the House, which would
show the necessity of the Government's attending to the
subject. A West India estate, producing 150 hogsheads
and 60 puncheons of rum—which was the fair propor-
tion—the amount of duty which Government derived
would be 5,4001., whilst time amount of profit derived by
the proprietor, after all his outgoings incidental to culti :
vation, would be only 1931. He would ask the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer if this were not a state of things de-
manding the attention of Government?

Mr. Alderman THOMPSON felt, that no interest in
the country was suffering more than that of the West
India proprietors; but it appeared to him from the state-
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that reductions
could not be carried further than they had been carried.
He could not but agree with the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen, that it behoved the Treasury to apply their reduc-
tions to those taxes that pressed most on the labouring
classes. The time had arrived when taxation must be al-
tered—and he felt convinced that public opinion would be
convinced that a tax upon capitol was the only way to re-
lieve the country from its distresses. He believed that
much of the distresses of the country was owing
to the extensive improvements in machinery ; and yet
he knew well the advantages of machinery, and that the
more extensively it was applied the more it advanced the
wealth of the country; but it was necessary by a reduc-
tion of taxes to enable the labouring classes to cope with
machinery. lie thought that the Stamp Acts ought to be
consolidated and equalized. Upon marine assurances to
Calais and Holland, for every 2s. Gd. paid on the policy
the duty was flee shillings, and the consequence was that
merchants did not assure at all, whilst wealthy As-
surance Companies had been established in France and
Holland, where they had no such difficulties to cope with.
A similar evil existed with respect to Fire Insurances.
With reference to the reduction of the Four per Cents., the
Governments of Europe were reducing their rates of in-
terest, anti if our Government had delayed the reduction,
foreign capital would have flowed into England, and in an-
other year our Government might have reduced the in-
terest with greater advantage.
- Mr. HUSKISSON was notgoing into the subject of the
state of the country at that moment, as there was a notice
of -motion for to-morrow, which would afford a better
opportunity for entering upon suet; a discussion, and he
intended to avail himself of it. If he rose upon this occa-
sign, it was because be could not deny himself the gratifi-
cation of expressing his approbation of the statement made
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. lie admitted, how-
ever, that the gratification which he felt at that statement
was not wholly unalloyed by considerations such as those
alluded to by the Hon. Member fir Callington. Not, Low-
ever, that he thought it possible for any one to doubt that,
under whatever circumstances of trial or difficulty, we
should be enabled to maintain the public faith and the
credit of the country untarnished. He thought, under all
existing circumstances, the plan laid down by his Right
Hon. Friend was the most expedient for the country, end
that his statement of that evening was one which he, in
common he Yeas sure with the House at large, had heard
with unmixed satisfaction. If there was any drawback
on that satisfaction, it could he only a difference of opinion
as to the articles which his Right Hon, Friend had se-
lected for a reduction of duty. He said reduction when he
should have said abolition—(Hear)—for he was glad that
his Right Hon. Friend had resolved upon the total aboli-
tion instead of a partial reduction of the duties on beer
and leather, as otherwise the benefits of a lessening of the
taxes on those articles would not be felt by the public.—
(Hear.)—He agreed with the Hon. Member for Ca'lington
as to the advantages which might arise from converting
the present permanent Four per Cent. Annuities into Five
per Cent., or perhaps something higher annuities, for a
definite number of years, hut he would reserve his opinion
on the general merits of tl.e Hon. Member's proposition
awdleiegnuitte
the distress of the country, with a view to its
relief, was substantively before the House. With
respect to what had been said about reducing the Four per
Cents. to Three, or Three and a Half per Cents., lie begged
leave to say, that he had more than once in that House
advocated the principle of such a reduction, and had
expressly stated, that Ministers would Lie guilty of a
neglect of duty had they neglected to take advantage
of such a state of public credit as would enable them to
effect a practicable diminution of the public burdens: be
Was sorry, however, to hear his Right H,un. Feiend asso-
ciate the proposition in any way with thestate of the foreign
exchanges. lie thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should not be regulated by exchanges which depended so
much on contingencies in contt eatiog any loans necessary
for the public service; that in fact lie should not borrow
from any other party, not even the Bank of England, than
the public; thus rendering himself indepeddent in the state
of the exchange in foreign markets. He trusted that after
all the suflintings of the country, in order to attain a solid
improved currency, no measure would be sanctioned Icy the
Gwitrnment, the tendency of which would be the locking
up of capital in the coffers of the Bank of England—a re-

stilt which would he consequent upon a reliance on foreign
~xehtogrs. With respect to .What had been said about
puttipg an end to our present sinking fund system altoge-
ther in 1831. he thought it right to say that he was one of
those who approved of the prieei;dee of a sinking fund, that
in fact he ii tight that there should he always a bona fide
surplus of income over expenditure applied to the reduc •
tion of the debt. Tee lee-met, of the country was collected
tiepin so many somves of a contingent nature, that it would
be impossible for any Minister to count on it, and the ex-
penditure being every year in exact proportion to each
other, so that an actual annual surplus of income over ex-
penditure was necessary, not only for the purpose of re-
ducing the debt, but also for making our revenue and outlay
square in an average number of years. lie thought that
the sinking fund system, into which we had accidentally
fallen, the very best Which could have been adopted under
the existing circumstances of the country, and should
therefore not only not wish to see it wholly abandoned, but
should on the contrary wish to see it carried further into
operation than it had been. He wished indeed that we
had a sufficient surplus of income overexpenditure to carry
into effect on a large scale the proposal St' the Hon. Mem-
her to which he had before alluded—namely, the convert-
ing some—he wished he could say 100 millions—of the
permanent _Four per Cent. annuitants into life annuitants, at
a certain increase, say one or cne and a half per cent. in-
crease. I-Ic thought such a measure would be the best and
most efficacious triode of reducing the amount of the debt
that could be acted upon consistently with the honour of
the country, and he saw no objection agrinst its practica-
bility. There could be no difficulty, he thought, in its
adoption, and he trusted the House and the Government
would give, it a fair consideration, with a view to its being
prectically acted upon with as little loss of time as pos-
sible. In his anxiety to see the amount of the debt re-
duced he would gladly encourage the passing of such a mea-
sure, while we possessed the means of effecting it advanta-
geously for the public. Dut, as he had stated, he shou'd
state his opinion more fully on the subject when stating his
views of the present distress of the country, of the causes
and extent, which he thought had been much exaggerated,
of that distress, and of other modes than those stated by
his Right lion. Friend that evening, of 'educing the pub-
lic expenditure with a view to remedy it.—(Boar.)
Sir C BURRELL addressed the House in a tone
wholly inaudible in the gallery. From the remarks of the
Hon. Member who succeeded him in the debate, we pre-
sume that he contended that the selection of beer for the
abolition of duty was injudicious, as that duty appeared
to hits not to be particularly onerous on the working
classes.

Sir T. ACLAND begged leave express his satiJac-
ion with the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
particularly with that part in which the abolition of the
duty on eider was promulgated. He assured the Right
Hon. Gent, that that abolition would be received with
great satisfaction by his constituents—( Hear, and a laugh)—
upon whom it, acted most onerously. He differed from
the Hon. Member for Sussex (Sir C. Burrell) as to the
oppressive -tendency of the present beer tax. He thought
that it particularly pressed upon the poorer classes, contrary
to the opinion of the Hon. Baronet, and that its abolition
mould encourage the manufacture of good beer and at a cheap
rate. He was glad also that the duty on leather was to
be wholly reduced, the rather as no benefit accrued to the
consumer of that article, either in harness or shoes, from
the redaction of the half of that duty, which had been
eff.cted a few years since. As the old proverb had it,—
`• no good was ever done by halves,"—so he thought with
reduced excise duties, no benefit could arise to the public
from a half reduction, nor from any reduction that was
not in effect a total abolition.—(Hear.)
Lord MILTON agreed with the Hon. Member for
Sussex (Sir C. Burrell), and he believed in doing so he
was one of a very few in that House, that the beer tax
abolition proposed by the Right Hon. the Chancellor• of the
Exchequer, was injudicious. He thought that, for the re-
duction to be beneficial to the public at large, it should be
made on malt instead of beer.—(Hear). The beer reduc-
tion could not much affect the landholder, certainly could
not benefit him, neither indeed could that on malt. The
reasons on which he should propose that the latter duty
should: be that abolished instead of that on beer, were, in
the first place, that the latter would be only a partially, or
rather locally advantageous measure, while the former would
be a general benefit. In many districts of the country,
in that part of Yorkshire, for example, with which he was
more intimately connected, the consumers of beer gene-
rally brewed for themselves ; to them therefore the pro
posed reduction could he no benefit. In the next place, the
reduction of the duty on beer, while that on malt remained
as it was, would, as had been observed by the Hen.
Member for Sussex, tend to throng public houses, and
lessen the practice of home brewing. The very reverse
he contended would be the effect of a reduction of the
duty on malt, and therefore, were it only on that ac-
count, he should have much preferred it. He lamented
that a measure of relief should have such an objec-
tion, and should only act advantageously in geogra-
phical sections. He approved entirely of the pro-
posed reduction of the ditty on leather. He agreed
with what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Abingdon
respecting the expediency of reducing the Four per Cents.,
and had only to hope, that if that mode of economy he
adopted, that no attempts would be made to raise the price
of stock, in order to enable the Government to carry it
into effect. He also agreed with what had fallen from the
Hon. Member for Callington respecting the holders of
stock. That Hon. Member had shown from a paper
which had been far a few days before the public, that the
holders of stock were not, take them as a mass, those over-
gorged individuals which they had been invidiously repre-
sented, in order that they might be made the ♦ictims of a
disgraceful project, but humble individuals, who had spent
the morning and noon and mid-day of an industrious life in
reaping a competence for the evening of their days.
Mr. STEWART, as we understood, objected to the in-
tended increase of duty on Scotch whisky, as likely to lead
to operate as a bounty on smuggling in the Highlands.
Lord HOWICK agreed with the Hon. Member, that
smuggling would he increased as the duty was augmented.
The best plan, as it appeared to him, would be to raise the
duty in Scotland—say 2s. a gallon, and lessen it in Eng-
land—at least leave it as it was. By that means the duty
would be collected without detriment to the revenue, and
smuggling would be discouraged.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
leave to say one word in explanation of a point which had
been referred to by the Hon. Member for CallingtOn, and
subsequently by the Right lion. Member for Liverpool.
The Hon. Member seemed to intimate to the House that
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) contemplated that in
1831 he should have no surplus of income over expendi-
ture. He must have expressed Marta very differently to
what he had intended if he had said any thing to Warrant
such an inference. His line of argument was, that bough
he could net predict that that surplus would be 3,000,0001.,
he still thought he might rationally look to—when he
took the proposed reduction of the Four per Cents, and
the other measures of economy of the Government, into
account—a bona fide surplus of at least 1,500,000/.—a
sum which a good harvest and improved circumstances of
the country would raise still higher.—(Hear.)-11e took
particular pains to impress this his view on the mind of
Hon. Members, and regretted that a contrary impreszion
had been made on the Hon. Member for Callington, and
through him, perhaps, on the House at large. He hoped,
however, that the House was then di•abused of its mis-
conception, and that be had set it right. With respect to
what bad fallen from the Noble Lord (Howick) who spoke
last, be begged leave to say, that he agreed with that Noble
Lord, that the subject of duty on spirits, whether with a
view to its reduction or increase, was one beset with diffi-
culties. He admitted that it was objectionable in principle
that there should be one ditty in one country or county, and
another in one immediately adjoining it; that this difference
orduty opened the door to smuggling and other frauds on the
revenue; but he contended that he brought a new enemy,
a third antagonist, into the field against those evils, in
abolishing the duty on beer, a beverage which he confi-
dently hoped would in time expel ardent spirits from the
table of the industrious and poor classes, and with it those
lawless habits which an appetite for it generated.—(Hear.)
—With respect to the proposal of somewhat equalizing
the ditties on Scotch whisky in the two countries, he was
willing to admit that, so far as finance was concerned, it
would be a most desirable measure ; but from the facilities
which the north of Scotland afforded fur smuggling and
illicitly preparing that spirit, and the tastes and habits of
the Highlander, it was deemed expedient to adopt the pre-
sent scale of duty.

e.,zaiisrlseoris.,:rießot:,B.,:‘lo:RlEufelitsNdhiet:toili:evxivaHial.alstoruslos:pe(re)..l;:oy:tll:iGf
chnetielmmadn ntloisiebotncedievgerdeetbhee
had stated, and should feel much obligeHedxopina.tnoaGltii;eomn:tioeafisntahlinee
isdufill::n.orirtd:Pltl.ille:uoi'Gs;shleialhia(initts:l"l,B.m'mcie3irleplelaeta,nttihisi)o'noinngrii.d),toeahft.l4eaj,Deut:bildfie)ionitklahiaalesinies3l;lC::.l:fßl:(le)nitcsii3rig•tu'r‘e:vheliv•alfal't;tr'iii.Cliolb'-usnietero?'lt(fe:lttl:lel'lrd°lß.i:hl
o
circumstances of the country,iiu tpiaiertiletuiglairltlybtLt.l.Gbenentleefimcaianl
Isevtfiri,eaieciitig:eorhyf-eafoger:gmopttei:ltt'eah,rn:te:aotg;doeordiveharfrvoesnr:
the
ed til:naptorintattihoen
o f
de-
gree of its griminess, would sweep away all the revenue
foreign corn.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER eon-

tended that his estimate of the revenue 1831 w a
matter of calculation, as much to he tiepended 'upon as that
for 1830 or any other year.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY begged leave, as one who was in
the best sense of the term a representative of the people,
to express on their part his satisfaction at the proposed
abolition of duty on three of the articles of life which
bore chiefly upon the industrious poor. He would not
augur the extensive benefits which some Hon. Members
seemed to expect front those redactions, nor from the
3,000,0001. of taxes. certainly a ltrge concession to public
opinion, which the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had counted ;,bout, but still he received them with
applause, as an index of a better system of the public
expenditure. He could not, for example, admit that the
reduction of the tax on beer would increase the growth of
in:A awl hops, and therefore could not approve of a re-
duction which might tend perhaps to deteriorate the qua-
ID), of beer by increasing its quantity without a corre-
spondent increase of the .materiels—malt and hops—of
that beer, an increase which could only be effected by a
reduction of the duty on those article,. But little good
would be effected by what Ministers proposed, and little
would be done to ameliorate the coalition of the people of
this country, unless a free trade were allowed in corn, lie
gave Ministers every credit for the measure which they pro-
. posed for the reduction of the Four per Cents., nor did he
suppose that any intention existed on their part to eleleut
from the terms of the contract with the fundholder. The
fundholder here beside had his remedy, for it was open to
Trim to sell out it he felt any objection to the proposed ar-
rangement; but really he (Mr. Harvey) thought that
these terms were rather hard as regarded the public, for
the public wool.! be obliged, under smelt circumstances, to
pay 100/. for only 601. that had been originally lent. In
private concerns, if a man borrowed 1,060/,, upon an en-
gagement to pay afterwards, whenever called upon by the
lender, 2,0001., be was sure that the Courts of Equity in
this country would relieve that individual from such a con-
tract, on the ground of its being fraudulent. He hoped
Ministers would endeavour to lower the stock, if the y
could, when the public was obliged to adhere to such a
bargain. He thought that the reduction of taxes ought to
be carried. He was of opinion that, in order to afford
substantial relief to the country, the reduction ought to be
carried to 10,000,000/. or 12,000,000 L, and an equitable
property tax laid on to meet whatever deficiency such re-
duction might occasion. He gave Miniaers every credit
for economy, but their disposition was not permitted to
go in that way further than theory, for in every step they
were met by a counteracting influence in Parliament.
The resolutions were then put and agreed to, and the
House having resumed; the report was ordered to be re-
ceived to-morrow (this clAy.)
EAST RETFORD.

Sir N. CALVERT moved the Order of the Day fur the
bird reading of the East Retford Bil!.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said ke had repeatedly voted against
he Bill, with the view of giving the franchise to some ex-
:cnsive manufacturing town, and having failed in attaining
:hat object, it was only left to him to oppose the Bill itself,
which he looked upon as a complete deception. He should,
therefore, move as an amendment, that the Bill be read
that day six months.
Mr. HUME would support the amendment of the Hon.
Member for Westminster.—( Cries of" Divide—Question.")
Mr. Alderman WAITIDIAN said, ho would detain this
House only for a few moments. Seeing the Attorney-
General in his place, and as there had been very recently
a criminal prosecution at the suit of that Learned Gentle-
man against the electors of the borough of Stockbridge,
he (Alderman Waithman) would take this opportunity to
give notice that he should move for the ininutss of the
Judge upon that occasion, and for a copy of the indictment.
Sir ROBERT WILSON said he had voted upon
several occasions for giving the franchise which was dis-
posable here to the town of Birmingham, but as he bad
not succeeded in that, he thought it better to have this
Bill than to allow the franchise to remain in this corrupt
boroughs alone. He should, therefore, vote against the
amendment of the Hon. Member for Westminster, anti in
f :your of the Bill for extending the franchise to the hun-
dred of Ihoactlaw.
Mr. TENNYSON rose amidst great confusion, anti
cries of " Question," " Question." He was, he said,
merely desirous to state, that the amendment of the lion.
Member for Westminster was intended, in the event of its
being carried, to give the House another opportunity of
doing that which the country called upon it to do—
namely, to transfer the franchise in this instance to some
large town. He therefore hoped the amendment .would
have the support of the lion. Member for Southwark.
The House then divided, when there appeared__
For the m0ti0n,...164 j Against it, ...SS I Majority 81.
The Bill was then read a third time.
On our return to the gallery, we found
Mr. O'CONNELL on his legs, moving, as an amend-
ment, that the poll should be taken here by ballot, and
also the insertion of a clause specifying the mode ln,which
the ballot should be taken. The avowed ostensible object
of this Bill was to prevent bribery and corruption in the
borough of East Retford, and the way in which that wag
proposed to be effected was by increasing the number of
voters. He did not see how such a remedy would cure
the acknowledged evil which existed in this instance, and
if such a remedy were efficient, ke should certainly like
to see the standard ascertained as to the given number of
voters which would prevent bribery and corruption in
boroughs of this description. Now he (Mr. O'Connell)
would propose a really efficient measure for preventing
bribery and corruption for the future in this borough. He
should propose that the poll be taken by ballot, and he
had a clause besides specifying the manner in which ho
should propose to have the ballot taken. This was the
only effective measure IT putting an end to bribery and cor-
ruption in this borough. By means of voting by ballot the
voter was secured against the exercise of undue influence in
the shape of terror or corruption, and he could vote honestly
and sincerely for the man whom he considered the fittest and
best qualified to be elected. This landlord, if he wished
to influence the voter by terror, or was afterwards desirous
to punish him for voting against his (the landlord's) in-
terest, had no means of coming at him, for he never could
ascertain the aide upon which the elector had voted. In
that way, too, the motive for giving a bribe was removed
altogether, for the man who would then take a bribe
never could prove afterwards that he had earned the
money, faishe was himself alone cognisant of the mode in
which he had disposed of his vote. The proof, then, that
he had earned the bribe would depend upon his credit for
veracity, and the man who would take a bribe would
scarcely hesitate to tell a falsehood. This mode of elec-
tion left in complete operation all the just and legitimate
influence that ought to exist upon the minds of the votent,
and it removed the unjust and corrupt influence that it was
acknowledged upon all hands should be destroyed. It did
away with all the motives of terror or apprehension that
were called into action to influence the voters at elections.
These were the advantages of the mode of election which
he proposed to establish in this borough. Here was an
opportunity of making an experiment, and of bringing the
principle into play, and trying whether it was a right one.
Should he be told that the ballot did not preclude bribery
and corruption? Still it was not worse, on that account,
than the present system. It was objected that the mode of
taking votes by ballot would preclude representatives con-
fronting their constituents; but it was not till after nomina-
tion and the demand of a poll that the ballot would commence,
so that this mode would nut take away from constituents
the power they now enjoyed of asking for pledges in future
and explanations of past conduct. This process would
take place before the ballot. It was said, that the b.liot was
a sneaking thing ; but a man who sneaked at the ballot
would be a slave or a hypocrite at the vote. Let all such
sneaking and unmanliness fall upon the individual; the
House ought not to interfere about it. He had beard, and
lie regretted to hear it said in that House, that landlords
zti
had a right to demand the votes of their tenants. 1-f de-
nied it: a man might as well be blackened and -sent to the
colonies, if he was such a slave as to be obliged, to give his
said,vot vote for
thatl'is electionslandli rd'wweirleetahtetrenalod hewiwlliPtlirr'rt-ting i hid
nti-
midation. been
_
midation. The ballot would prevent. this : an elector
would be saved frOth the temptation of bribery; and front
the terror of a riotous mob. He (Mr. O'Connell) knew
that at that late hour, and coming from such an insignifi-
cant individual as himself, with, the axed opinions lie was
known to hold on this subject, his motion might not be
popular; but in a land of common sense, he 'trusted that
a plan which did away with influence, bribery, and cor-
ruption, would not be rejected. Some of those who gave
money for seats in that House might notwithstanding be
very disinterested persons ; but others might look to a re-
turn of advantages. He was the representative of an un- •
corrupted and an unintimidated people, and lie called upon
all such persons in the House to support his proposition.—
(Cries of
" Questiou, question.")—The Hon. and Learned
Member then proposed a clause, directing the Winning
officers at an election, when a po!l tray required, to tale
the poll by ballot.

Mr. HUME seconded the motion. No questions had
occupied the tine of the House more uselessly tl•an
mea-
sures for punishing places gui!ty of corruption. Any plan
therefore, which etiabied voters to avoid improper in-
fluence would best answer the piirposes of the House.
This mode would completely /feet an object which re-
peated Acts of Parliament had in vain attempted. As to
the derogation which it would occasion to the national
character, in America there were 260,000 votes given for
the President, and all the public officers were e:ezted by

ballot; and wits there any thing in the citizens 0r the
United States which showed that this system was deroga-
tory to the national character ? As to the hypocrisy it
would lead to, at present an individual was called to give
his vote to a man whom he believes in his conscience is an
unfit man—was not that hypocrisy? With respect to
manlinces, was it unmanly to ballot in dubs? Electors
were not in a situation so independent as persons in clubs
---(" Question, question")-ss.and no Member who prac-
tised the mode of voting in clubs had a right to say that
such a practice was hypocrisy in individuals in a more
humble station. It was beneficial for the interests of the
community for the electors of this country to vote by bal-
lot; and he (Mr. Hume) could not think that any Hon.
Member who looked at what had taken place in France
would hesitate in believing in the efficacy of the measure.
Sir R. WILSON observed, that every one who looked
to the signs of the times must see that the cause of reform
had assumed a different aspect from heretofore : it was no
longer a clamour occasioned by temporary distress, but the
opinion of intelligent men. The subject deserved, there-
fore, to be fairly examined by the House. He gave the
Hon. and Learned Member for Clare full credit for sin-
cerity in bringing forward his proposition ; and he hoped
he 'would give him (Sir R. Wilson), the same credit for
sincere motives in opposing it. The proposition was of a
most extensive character. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber admitted that it was an innovation, and intended as
an initiative of a total change in the elective franchise; but
there was something in the concealment and muffling up,
which the system of ballot proposed, repulsive of his feel-
ings, contrary to the English character, and to that publi-
city which every elector ought to be desirous of seeking,—
(Hear.)—It was a system suited to a particular class of
people, and to juniors in the representative system; and an
experiment to try how far a nation was adapted to receive
such a system. We talked of the march of intellect, hut
this was a retrograde march,—we were going backward ;
and no foreigner who heard such a proposition would not
consider that its adoption would be a proof of our degra-
dation. The circumstances of France and of America
were totally different from ours : but he (Sir R. Wilson)
had conversed with North Americans, persons whose opi-
nions were entitled to the highest respect, who declared
that the ballot system was productive of so many evils in
their country, that they wished it could be got rid of, and
rice voce voting adopted in its stead.—(Hear.)—The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman should have his vote for any
measure of reform which would not be inconsistent with
the Constitution.—(Hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON observed that all political mea-
anres should lead to good government, and the question
was, whether this measure would or would not lead to
such an object. If he had any objection to the adoption
of the ballot in Bassetlaw, it was because the number of
voters was not so great as might be wished ; for the fittest
places for this measure were those where there were great
numbers of voters. There was no place where in-
timidation and influence were carried to such a pitch as in
London; and there the ballot would be beneficial. There
were some places, therefore, where the ballot would be
proper, others where it would be improper.—(" Question,
Question,")
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said he could assure the tem-
pestuous part of the House that lie would agitate them
but for a very few moments. His opinion was generally
in favour of reform ; and before he voted he wished to
explain the reasons why he did not support the motion of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Clare. He had listened
to the Hon. Member, and understood the object of his
proposition to be, to check and stifle corruption in indi-
viduals. Then was this the best mode? lie thought not.
He thought that the best and only effectual anode of pre-
venting corruption was, to place the representative in the
same situation, in that House as the electors at the bust-
ing', and oblige members to swear at the tar that they
had not offered a bribe. This was the only effectual
remedy; though he (Mr. Harvey) had been the only
member the other night who went out with the Hon.
Member for Beverly (Mr. Stewart) on a motion for this
object The Hon. and Learned Member had said that the
ballot would check hypocrisy and stifle corruption. Sup-
pose it did, would it not destroy the influence of exam-
ple ? And he (Mr. Harvey) should like to know if the
House would have had the pleasure of listening to the
Hon. and Learned Member for Clare, or if the Hon. and
Learned Member would have had the opportunity of de-
tailing his proposition here, but for the authoritative influ-
ence of example?—(Bear.)—He (Mr. Harvey) must
withhold his support from the motion, because it was an
adjunct to another—universal suffrage. Universal suffrage
and annual parliaments were the two prominent features
of the Radical creed. He knew the people of this country
were generally in favour of Reform ; but not such reforms
as was contained in this proposition. If the Constitution
was to be changed,--all titles and hereditary rank abo-
lished,—the Monarchy itself to be done away,—he (Mr.
Harvey) would then vote for universal suffrage ; but
till then he should be content with that Reform which
tended to restore the representation to its Constitutional
puriro,.,
Mr: JEPHSON mid that he should vote for the ;no-
tion of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for
Clare, but upon principles diametrically opposite.
Mr. W. SMITH said he should vote for the election by
ballot, as it appeared to him to be the only course by which
they couhl secure free election' for the borough of East
Retford joined with the hundred.
The House then divided on the question that Mr.
O'Connell's clause be brought up, when there appeared—
Ayes 21
Noes 179
• Majority against the introduction of ballot--155
On the second reading of the Poor Law Amendment
Bill being moved,
Mr. SLANEY said a few words, which were inaudible,
owing to the confusion occasioned by the crowd of Mem-
bers who were leaving the House.
Mr. BENETT thought that the present was not a fit
time for interfering with the relief which was legally ad-
ministered to the poor. He would therefore suggest that
the Bill proposed should be withdrawn for at least another
year. At all events, no person could deem it expedient
to enter on a discussion of the subject at so unseasonable
an hour.
Lord ALTHORP recommended that the Bill might be
then given a second reading pro forma, with the under-
standing that they should discuss its principle when the
Speaker was about to leave the Chair, in order that the
House might resolve itself into Committee.
The Bill was accordingly read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed to a Committee of the whole House
on Friday next.
HAYMARKET.—ST. JAMES'S PARK.
Lord LOWTHER moved the second reading of the
Haymarket Removal Bill, on which
Mr. W. SMITH remarked, that no opposition on any
side would be offered to the removal of the market; but
he apprehended that the place to which it was intended to
remove it would he found inconvenient to numbers, and
the Bill might on that account create some dissatisfaction.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said he should take the present op-
portunity to ask two questions of the Noble Lord who
presided over the department of woods and forests. The
first related to the proposed carriage-road which it was
expected would have been opened in St. James's-park from
Pimlico to Storey's-gate. The improvement was gene-
rally understood to have been agreed upon and arranged
when the land was taken in for the erection of the new pa-
lace ; but there was at present no appearance of any pre-•
paration for opening such a road. He therefore wished to
know whether the design had been abandoned. The se-
cond question *as on 'a subject no less interesting to many
of his constituents, and likewise related to another im-
provement in the same park, which there was hitherto no
prospect of being carried into effect. It had been under-
stood that after pulling down of Carlton House a commu-
nication would have been made from Waterloo-place into
St. Jamee's-park, by means of two openings through the
newly-erected terrace ; but Vile might judge from the pro.
gress which the work had already made towards comple-
tion, that expectation was not destined to he realised. He
wished, however, to learn from the Noble Lard whether it
was determined that any such openings should be made.
Lord LOWTHER regretted he could not gratify the
Hon. Member by his answer concerning the passage which
he bad just mentioned, as no public communication into
the park would be made through the terrce at the end of
Waterloo-place ; nor would such a measure be authorised
by the minutes already submitted to the House on the 18th
of January, 1827. With respect to the road alluded to,
In was happy to inform the Hon. Gentleman that it would
be opened very soon, and he would have the satisfaction, in
a very short time, of seeing it ready for the accotnmoda-
fon of the inhabitants.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to a Select Committee, the Members of which
were named and agreed to.
The o her Orders of the Day being disposed of, the
House adjourned at a Quarter-past Twelve.

LIST OF THE MINORITY
0 F TWENTY-ONE, WIIO t oTRO FOR MR. O'CONNELL'S CLAUSE, T 0 kT
TSB ELECTION FOX MEMBERS FOR EAST RETFORD BE ST sALLoT,
01( SLCRF.T TOTING.
A lthorp, Viscount Hobhousc, .1. C Smith, W.
Blandford, Marquis Jeplison, C.l). Waldman, Ald.
Burdett, Sir F. Maberly, J. Warburton, 11.
Cholmelcy, M. Marshall, NV: Wells, J.
Darien, Col. Monck, J. B. Whitbread, S. C
Dawson, A. Nugent, Lord TELLERS.
Et.ringtcn, Viscount Palmer, C. F. D. O'Connell
Ciortion, li, Protherdc, E. tittme, Joseph