The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-09 00:00:00

POLAND.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition,
agreed to at a meeting held in Guildhall, in favour of the
Poles. The noble earl also presented 61 other petitions to
the same effect. He said it was not to be wondered at that
sympathy should arise in a country where so much liberty
existed as England, in favour of a nation which had made
such struggles and sacrifices for freedom as Poland. The
noble lord then proceeded to touch upon the present
prostrate state of Poland, and said the convention enter-
ed into by Russia and Prussia was of a most abominable
nature ; the later convention was not of a more favourable
character, and the manner in which Prussia had submitted
to Russia was most disgraceful. He hoped that Russia would
not at the present tine be allowed to revive that against
which England had been so long protesting, viz., a fugi..
tive slave law—a more ferocious encroachment on the rights
of man he had never heard of. When the Emperor of Russia
received a deputation, he stated that any dis-
affection or any desire to reconstitute Polish na-
tionalty would bring down upon them great mis-
fortune, and conclw ed by saying that "he would
in such a case destroy Warsaw, and that he was not a per-
son likely to build it up again." The noble earl then went
on to recount other incidents in the history of Poland,
until he came to the present outbreak, occasioned by the
abominable conscription, which, he said, was one of the most
refined species of cruelty the heart of man ever conceived.
It was done by surprise in the dead of night; husbands
were torn from their wives, and sons from fathers, half
naked from their homes and confined in prison.
It was one of the greatest atrocities ever per
petrated by man on man,, but like all satanical measures
it was too strong, and the devilish act had recoiled on
the head of its projector. The result of all the dreadful
proceedings showed the necessity of separation between
Poland and Russia. It was impossible that two such
nations could go in union again. The spec-
tacle before the country was neither temporary
nor spasmodic,but the result of a long series of oppressions,
and it could not be said to have shown anything like dimi•
nishing, but quite the contrary. With respect to the late
amnesty, it was only so in name, that it was in fact merely
talk and subterfuge, and the Poles had done right to reject
it. The insurrection might be put down, but the
spirit of it would never be quenched. It would
break out afresh again and again, and Gorischakoff
had truly said that nothing would entirely crush it out but
total annihilation and extinction.

Lord HARR° WBY condemned the policy pursued by
the Russian Government, and was of opinion that by the
violation of the Treaty of Vienna it had forfeited its rights
as regards Poland.
Earl RUSSELL—My lords, I listened with the greatest
pleasure and attention to both my noble friends who have
'list addressed your lordships; and I rise to address a few
just
to your lordships with a deep sense of respon-
sibility. That sense of responsibility arises from two causes
—the one is lest I should give too sanguine a colour to the
representations which have been made by some of the powers
of Europe to Russia, and lest I should say too much as to
my expectations of the success of those efforts, and so in-
duce your lordships to think and hope the consummation of
those desires is speedily to be arrived at. The other consi-
deration which affects me is lest I should induce your lord-
ships to think that her Majesty's Government are prepared

—still more lest I should induce the Polish nation to believe
that her Majesty's Government are prepared—to take part
in this contest, or to do more than address to the Govern-
ment of Russia those representations which we feel it be-
longs to a country such as this, and more especially when
joined with two powerful Governments like those of France
and Austria, to make. '1 hese representations should be
made with a due regard to her own interest, with a due re-
gard to justice, and with a due regard to the character of
the Emperor of Russia. Now, my lords, before I speak of
that which has lately happened, more especially with refe-
rence to the representations which have been made,-I ask
your lordships' attention for a few moments to what was
done in 1831. In 183 my noble friend, Lord Palmerston,
who then held the situation of Secretary of State for Fo-
reign Affairs, addressed these words to Lord Heytesbury :
—" The treaty of Vienna declared that the kingdom of
Poland should be attached to Russia by its constitution.
A constitution the Emperor of Russia accordingly gave;
and it is surely no force i canstruction of the meaning of
that treaty to consider the constitution so given as exist-
ing thenceforth under the sanction of the treaty." Now
I do not believe it requires me to use any lengthened ar-
gument in respect to the treaty of Vienna, or the cons,i-
tution as being necessarily connected with it; that argu-
ment has appeared in the state despatches of 1831, and in
those of the present year; but there is one consideration
that arises from reading the papers of 1831, which, I think,
ought to ba present to the minds of Parliament, and to the
minds of the public, amongst whom the question is some-
times naturally asked, Whkt is the use of diplomatic repre-
sentations? I wish to call your lordships' attention to the
despatch of Lord Heytesbury in 1832. He tells my noble
friend Lord Palmerston that it is true our representations
have not achieved the object we wished, but that it would be
a great mistake to suppose that they were fruitless, Our re-
presentations have been entirely confined to the kingdom of
Poland ; they have no bearing on those provinces of Russia
which do not form part of the kingdom of Poland. Now,
mark the difference in reference to these different provinces
Lord Heytesbury writes, "It will be sufficient to cast cur
eyes towards the Russo-Polish provinces not included in the
kingdom of Poland, and consequently out of the reach of
foreign intervention, to be convinced to the contrary. In
the kingdom of Poland, setting out of the question those
accused of assassination and the officers of the three corps,
Kaminski, Rybinski, and Ramorin, who form a class apart,
and who are now gradually returning to their homes upon
consenting to renew their oaths of allegiance, there are net
above 20 individuals excluded from the amnesty or who will
suffer for their political conduct. But in the Russo-Polish
provinces incorporated with the empire confiscation of pro-
perty, exile, or deportation to Siberia, are the general lot.
Not an individual has been suffered to escape who took any
part in the revolution. This different measure of punishment,
though it speaks little in favour of the clemency of this Go-
vernment, shows clearly the effect of foreign intervention.
Wo may not have gained much, but we at least have the con-
solation of knowing that the course pursued would have been
infinitively more sevete had we not taken the line we did."
This shows, I think, that some advantage may be derived
from the influence of a great power using language founded
on truth, and that such influence a power like Russia may
not like to disregard. Now, in speaking of that which has
lately happened, I must, in the first place, endeavour to do
justice to the character of the Emperor of Russia, and,
differing in that respect from my noble friend, I should say
that I entirely believe in the benevolence and sincerity of
that sovereign. Ido not regard as mere profession on his
part thos. sentiments that all sovereigns are apt to profess,
but I do say that there is hardiy any act which ennobles the
reign of a sovereign more grand in its effect or more bene-
volent in its conception than the emancipation of the serfs
of Russia. Every one who has attended to that act knows
that the persons of most influence at the court—that the
great aristocracy of Russia were deeply interested in the
maintenance of serfdom. To some it has been the loss of
one-ht,lf their annual rent, to some five-sixths, and to others
ill
even nine-tenths; but the Emperor of Russia, seeing that
the interests of humanity were involved in that question—
seeing that millions upon millions, not only of the present
race, but of those yet unborn, would derive benefit from that
proclamation of freedom, has not kesitated, with due delibe-
ration, but at the same time with the utmost boldness, to
declare the freedom of the serfs throughout the wide extent
of his eominions, Well, I say, when a sovereign who has
performed f u3h an act—who has done that from sentiments b
that he himself conceived, and who was not forced to it
we
anything like insurrection, we should not P
have no right to presume—that, with regard toarTiouthweer—p.art
of his subjects, ho has been animated by intentions which
were other than for their welfare. But having said thus
much, having declared what is my opinion, I am next
obliged to say that in nothing that he has done with regard
to Poland—that in nothing that I have hitherto seen, do I
foresee the foundations of that prosperity, of that enjoy-
ment of just rights, which the Poles are entitled to expect.
I find in the last despatch of Prince Gortschakoff what is
held out with regard to Poland. Prince Gortschakoff says
By the side of an act of clemency to which it has been
possible to give a large extension since the dispersion of
the most important armed bands, the Emperor has Main-
tained in force the institutions already granted, and has de-
clared that he has resets?, d to himself the power of giving
ro them the developments indicated by time and the re-
quirements of the country. His Majesty c
the, past in the rectitude of hi a conscience; n
thean eroretfotuteo

future it necessarily depends on the confidence with which
these institutions will be met in the kingdom." Now
really the w le gist of the present question lies in these
last wrrds. If we could believe that the Poles themselves
would accept with confidence the institutions recently
given or about to be given to them, if we could think that
they had reason to entertain confidence that those insti-
tutions w ald afterwards be developed into a complete
system of freedom and of justice, then indeed we might
look forward with some satisfaction to the future
of Poland. But what is the case P Where are the
grounds of that expectation? Institutions have been given,
but from time to time there have been the most arbitrary
arrests. Men have been taken from their beds and sent to
prison without accusation. In the churches at Warsaw—
I believe in the cathedral especially—arrests were made, and
the pavements of that church were stained with the blood
of men who went to worship their God according to their
own rites. These acts are such as to destroy all confidence ;
but beyond that the Poles cannot help reflecting that in
1332 and the following years attempts were made to deprive
them of their language, and to convert them by torte to a
religion which was not their own. Such a policy of the Em-
peror Nicholas, if it had been, uccesstul, might indeed have
changed the whole face of Poland, but not being successful
it leaves a lasting sense of resentment—a lasting feeling
that they never can rely upon the promises of the Russian
Government. But my noble friend has mentioned, and I
think justly, that act which he rightly called an act of pro-
scription, which indeed was the immediate cause of the out-
break. Can men who have suffered such an outrage regard
with confidence the institutions about to be Riven to them?
It is observed by those who are well acquainted with the go-
vernment of Poland, and I have consulted with those who
have watched its course yrar after year, that it is the vice of
the Russian Government that whatever good may be done,
whatever liberal institutions are given, there is no constancy
—no perseverance. At one time it was declared that all
trials of persons for political offences should be public That
was carried into effect for a few weeks, but some inconve-
nience was felt and that privilege was at once abandoned.
These are the things that prevent any feeling of confidence
from arising in the breasts of the subjects of that Governs
ment. They know it is impossible to rely upon the belief
that the institutions given will be permanent, and that very
act of conscription was directly in the teeth of the law of
1859, a law of the present Emperor, upon which, if the Poles
relied upon anything, they ought to have relied as a perma-
nent law of the kingdom of Poland. Then we are forced to
come to the conclusion that it is difficult above all things
to inspire in the Poles a feeling of confidence with which
these institutions should be met. It may be said that it is
hard upon an Emperor whose intentions are so praiseworthy
that he should be met with distrust, and all his bs,nefits
should be spurned ; but such is the natural, the legitimate
consequence of despotism, that its caprices destroy all
confl ience, and that its promises for the future are spurned
because its promises for the past have been falsified.
(Hear, hear.) If that be the case, had we not some reason
when we recommended that the constitution which was
given by Alexander I. in 1815, should be restored and
scrupulously adhered to ? The reason I say this is not
because I suppose that the Powers of Europe at Vienna
precisely prescribed that constitution ; but it is this—
that I know not how the Russian Government, having a
people opposed to the Poles, having a national aversion to
them, I know not how that Government could govern hap-
pily or securely but by giving these two securities—first,
that the men employed by the Government should have the
confidence of the nation, and secondly, that they should be
governed by known rules. These aro the foundation of the
elements of good government in all cases, and unless they
are given to Poland I cannot see how we can hope for the
tranquillity of that country. The first thing to give confi-
dence is to have a national assembly elected by the Poles
themselves. Ido not mean to be pedantic upon this ques-
tion, as Prince Gortschakoff reproaches us that we are. I de
not mean to say that the institutions that suit England are
exactly the institutions that would suit Poland or any other
country; but what I say is essential is this, that the
persons who govern, whether in municipal councils flawed
by the Emperor himself or chosen by the suffrages of the
electors, should be persons who have the confidence of the
nation. They should be persons in whom the nation con•
fides that their promises will be kept; but when yon place
a man at the head of the Government who promulgates a
law, which law declares that persons for the service of the
army shall be taken by regular lot and according to known
rules, and suddenly in one night violates all those rules and
kidnaps 2,000 young men. I say in such men the people of
Poland can have no confidence, and it is hopeless to expect
that they should. (Hear.) It was for these reasons that her
Majesty's Government advised a return to the institutions

of Alexander I. as likely to secure peace to Poland, and
whether these institutions are reverted to or any other are
adopted, I say now, as we said then, in any future diplo-
matic representation, in any negotiation which Prince
Gortschakoff declares the Russian Government is willing to
entertain, in any discussions into which we may enter, we
must say that unless the civil, political, and municipal in-
stitutions of Poland are placed in the hands of the people
themselves there is no chance of tranquility in that country.
I speak of tranquillity in the sense in which the Great
Powers have spoken The French and Austrian Govern-
ments have asked to have " durable peace," and the English
Government have asked for " peace on a lasting foundation ;"

and I say it is such a peace as that which we ought to have,

It is said that certain benev, lent institutions have been
given to Poland. and that Poland shou d be satisfied; but
we should be deceiving ourselves and Europe if we cx-
pec ed such a result. I know not that we can go beyond
that which we have a right to do—namely, wo have a right
to speak of the kingdom of Poland as constituted by the
Treaty of Vienna. and we have a right to speak of its con-
stitution. The Treaty of Vienna said that Poland—the duchy
of Warsaw, as it was called—should be connected irrevoca-
bly with the empire of Russia by its constitution. These
words must have meant something ; for it would have b en
quite sufficient to say, if no consti ution was meant, " The
duchy of Warsaw is irrevocably united to Russia ;" these
words would have been sufficient. What was the meaning
of the words—indefinite and vague, I admit, but still with a

signification in them—" United to the empire of Russia by
its constitution." We can only advise, therefore, such insti-

tutions as would give the people of Poland a government o

Poland within the kingdom of Poland constituted by the

Treaty of Vienna. My noble friend has gone a good deal fur-
ther than that line of duty which I have traced out for her
Majesty's Government. My noble friend who presented
the petition from the City has declared that in his opinion
we ought to declare that the kingdom of Poland ahould
hereafter be entirely severed from the empire of Russia,
and should form a separate kingdom. My noble friend
who spoke last considered that Russia had forfeited all
title under the Treaty of Vienna, and that we, in the name

of the British nation and of this Government, ought to
declare it no longer existing. I cannot tell you that her
Majesty's Government will take either the one step or the
other. (Hear, hear.) With regard to declaring the sepa-
ration of the kingdom of Poland from the emrire of Russia
I think there are grave questions which any Government,
any statesman, must ask himself before hisdeliberation can
be concluded in the affirmative. What is to be this
kingdom of Poland? Supposing the Emperor of Russia
were to declare even that in his opinion it was desirable
to separate the kingdom of Poland, would the Poles
generally be satisfied with those limits which the Treaty of
Vienna has laid out? What was the object with which
Andre Zamoyski went to St. Petersburg ? b e went with
this object : he was summoned there to explain an address
which many of the nobles and proprietors had prepared as

an address to the Emperor. Now what was the purport of
that address ? The purport was that all the territories which
formerly belonged to Poland should be united under one
denomination of the kingdom of Poland ; they professed, if

that request were complied with, the utmost loyalty to the
Emperor of Russia, that they would remain faithful to him
and his crown, but they did not profess that they would be
satisfied with the institutions given to the kingdom of Po-

land. lam not saying now whether they were justified in
that address, whether the happiness a the Polish subjects
of the Emperor of Russia requ►res any such measure, I am
only saying that if this Government were to interfere to
re-erect I he kingdom of Poland you must not think that that
question would be resolved by merely saying you would
have a kingdom of Poland. You would have other and

serious questions arising from that restoration; but there
are other questions still. What would be thee
jeer
depend upon
tphoaltani'dol?andlsPit Is it ihtatvoehGavaeliicPiao,sethne,
AthueinstParyiru.en
Part part of
Po-
land land ? If that were insisted upon, y
reface
that request as Russia herself..
kingdom of Poland is to con-
it that Austria and Prussia wouilfd
that the new king the sway of ties
and if you say
' ces now under
the sist only of the Polish provinces
only considerattempts
Emperor of Russia, in that case
_anicis,
Dant zic, and Posen
treo:sts inuchtholtpos
request,e,i to
that would be made to re-unite ii
and 0
phon
g much
element
em Austriaen t
oa
fn
pd e Pa
peace
sasni ad
i those attempts, and what
one hand
Id bo use
to the Polish i
interekingdom,sted
influence would
on the other, and what a new ele-
ment Poland
nd
to P support Poland on the o
and to repress
e instead of a new
(ll.ar hear
would create in Europe.
not to be left outof'r
indifferent to the future peace and to the
things consideration)
, them with a desire for the welfare of the Poles,
Loosing a
happiness you
are
future welfare of Europe, I cannot, for one, put these
consi-
derations
i.rinn:en:t: o
fudotisunlorotbf disturbance, instead
case. But then, besides this, In y be-
lief is—it may be mistaken, the events of to-morrow may
overturn all the foresight of to-day—but my belief is, that
in the present temper of the Russian government, and still
more of the Russian people, there is no readiness to consent
to that which would be considered as a dismemberment of
a great empire. There are glorious recollections—there are
symbols of pride and of power connected with Russia which
may bo destroyed, but which would hardly be destroyed
without a long and sanguinary war. Into these hazards,
these dangers, I. should certainly be very loth to enter; and
I think sour lordships and the other house of Parham, nt
representing this country, would be loth to enter on these
hazards without the most pressing necessity io force you to
do it. Well, while I think of these things and of the rea-
sons why we should proceed cautiously, why we should

proceed slowly, and in conjunction with other powers in
all that we attempt to do for Poland, I have as much con-
fidence as my noble friend who brought forward k.his peti-
tion in the ultimate power of public opinion. Prince Gort-
schakoff has spoken of the elements of disturbance, of the

-
revolutionary cosmopolites of Europe, and has asked France
and England, and Austria, to endeavour to repress their
intrigues. My lords, as in the battle-field the bird of prey
surround the carrion, so wherever there is any political
disturbance the moral and political vultures of Europe
flock together to take part in the conflict. But it is
not the mere disturbers, it is not the revolutionary dis-
turbers of Europe, who are taking part in the conflict
in Poland. It is, as I believe, the real, the conscientious
opinion of Europe—(hear, hear)—that what has taken
place in Poland has been carried by various modes of con-
veyance unknown in former times to all parts of Europe,
and the conscience of all Europe has been roused by seeing
the religion of a people trampled under foot—by seeing its
nationality despised--by seeing arbitrary measures dispose
of the lives and liberties of the great and good, of a brave
and celebrated nation. (Hear, hear.) Depend upon it, my
lords, that that expression of public opinion will not be
fruitless; depend upon it that the opinion which has been
expressed at the present time by three of the greatest and
powerful monarchies of Europe will be backed and sus-
tained by every minor power and every nation where men
can read, and think, and feel with regard to the woes of
Poland. (Cheers.) That which took place in 1831 and
1832—those attempts, those tyrannical attempts which then
passed almost unnoticed, would not now be repeated,
even
if the present Emperor of Russia were the man to repeat.
them, (Hear.) I ask your lordships to rely, first, on the
prudent course which has been pursued by her Majesty's
Government, and the assurance that that which can be
, fairly and practically done will be done by them. (Cheers.)
I ask you to rely, in the next place, on that public opinion
of Europe, which you may depend upon it the Emperor of
Russia, autocrat as he is, will not neglect. I ask you to
rely, finally, on the general sense of justice which pervades
the people of this and other countries. (Hear.) Above
all, I ask you to rely upon that Heaven which veill not
allow oppression to pass unpunished, and vehlut will not
allow these sufferings much longer to endure. (Loud
cheers.)
The subject then dropped.
EXCHEQUER BONDS (4000,000) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (£20,000,000) BILL.
This bill was also read a third time and passed.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening.
The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour.
The following bills were read a third time and passed:—
Dublin Corporation Water—Dublin, Wicklow, and Wes-
ford Railway—and North Staffordshire Railway (addi-
tional powers).
POLICE AMALGAMATION BILL—REPORT OF
STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.

Mr. HENLEY brought up the report of the Standing
Orders Committee on the bill for the amalgamation of the
City with the Metropolitan Police, which was to the effeot
that tho committee were of opinion that the standing orders
ought not to be dispensed with. (Laughter and cheers.)
BOTANIC GARDE NS.

The LORD ADVOCATE presented a petition from
Edinburgh signEd by 30,000 persons against the opening
of the Botanic Gardens in that city on Sunday. The
petition was in the form of a great roll, and too bulky to be
placed in the ordinary hag, and was carried out of the house
by a messenger amidst some laughter. A petition of rather
smaller bulk was afterwards presented by Mr. BLACK from
Edinburgh in favour of opening the gardens on Sunday.
(A laugh.)

RIOTS AT CAM BRI D GE.
Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART gave notice that on
Monday he would ask the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment whether he had received any report respecting the
conduct of the undergraduates who created a disturbance
in a Roman Catholic Chapel at Cambridge.

(oh, oh, and hear, hear)—its people were so brought down
in the social scale by priestly tyranny and a most abomin-
able civil government, that it would take generations before
the people would be able to enjoy the blessings of freedom.
(Oh, oh, and cheers.) They might deny or impeach the
statement of a gentleman like Mr. Odo Russell, and con-
demn what he had done, but he honoured that gentleman
for preferring the humiliation of withdrawing his statement
than, by substantiating ia have to give up his authors—
(oh, oh, and cheers)—and subject them to those penalties
which would be sure to fall on them. Mr. Odo Russell,
he said solemnly, had justified his statement, and shown
and proved that what he said was true. Was it possible,
therefore, with the present state of things, that Naples
should be kept quiet, remembering what had been her con-
dition under the detestable state of her former Government.
It was a case of brigandage, and not civil war, and though
the hon. member had quoted the statement of some of the
members of the Italian Parliament to show it was the lat-
ter, he 'would remind him that there were gentlemen in Op-
position at Turin as well as in London, who often made
statements they could not prove, and cared little whether
they could or not. (Oh, oh, and hear.) It was impossible
to find in Naples an honest man who had in any way
been connected with the old regime--( h, oh)— or any one,
who had had any experience in governments, that, under •
stood the action of an independent government, and it was
to that fact was to be attributed the present state and con•
dition of the Neapolitan gaols. The Government endea-
voured to carry out trial by jury, but it had failed, from
their inability to find Neapolitans ready and willing to carry
out their plane, and the delay occasioned thereby had caused
the gaols to remain so full. With regard to the state of the
prisons, he believed there was an entry in the book of one
of them, signed by a noble lord (Lord Henry Lennox),
speaking of the excel ent manner in which the prison was
kept, and he hoped to hear a repetition of that fact from the
noble lord, if he bad not been converted from his opinion
since his return to this country. Some were no doubt in an
unsatisfactory state in Naples, and others in a satisfactory
condition, and the Italian Government had expressed their
regret that the prisons of :Naples were not generally in that
state they should wish to see them. But their excuse was
that if the old agents were employed it would be impossible
to eradicate the vices of the old system ; and if Piedmontese
gaolers were introduced the usual cry would be got up that
the Sardinians were bi ought in everywhere. Formerly, the
state of the Italian prisons and hospitals—with the excep-
tion of those of Naples—were most creditable to the diffe-
rent governments. Especially so were those of Piedmont
and Tuscany; and now was anything said against the state
of the prisons of Piedmont and Tuscany ? The whole case
against the Italian Government was that they had failed to
bring the Neapolitan prisons into the same state as those of
Piedmont and Tuscany. Let him ask, what object could the
Italian Government have in keeping the Neapolitan prisons
in the state represented by the hon. member ? As for the
treatment of the prisoners, they were actually treated with
more liberality than prisoners in England. No doubt the
southern part of Italy was in an unsatisfactory state,
but he would reiterate what he said last year, that, with
very few exceptions, the National Guard were true to
the Government. As for the charges brought against Sir
James Hudson and Mr. Consul Bonham—that they had
suppressed information and deceived her Majesty's Govern-
ment—he would merely leave it to the house to say whe-
ther it was fair and generous to level such accusations
against men who were unable to defend themselves. To de-
clare that such men had wilfully deceived the Government
was a calumny which ought to be resented. It was true that
they heard occasionally of acts of atrocity being perpetrated
in Southern Italy, but such acts were inseparable from the
state of brigandage which existed there. And it was not the
Italian Government, but those who sent the brigands out,
that were responsible for the brigandage. (Hear, hear.) He
altogether rejected the charge that the English Govern-
ment had encouraged these brigands to cross over from
Malta to the Italian shore. The hon. member said this was
a civil war, and not brigandage; but was there ever a civil
war in which no man of property, no officer wearing a uni-
form, no prince of the blood was engaged ? It would be un-
worthy of England to insult a great and independent Go-
vernment like that of Italy, by year after year publishing
these reports on the state of Italy. (Hear.) He admitted the
condition of Italy was not satisfactory, but at the same time
he maintained that no country had achieved its indepen-
dence in so short a time of which there was so little to com-
plain. (Cheers.) Great things had never been accomplished
without great trials,and Italy must be prepared to go through
her day of trial. With respect to the statement of the hon.
Member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy), the lion, mem-
ber had very ingeniously confined his observations to the
years 1861 and 1862; but had he really desired to test the
condition of Italian trade, he ought to have compared its
Present state with what it was in the year '55, '56, '57, '5B,
when Naples was under the old regime. But at the same time
he could mention this extraordinary fact, that while during
the last 12 months our exports,in consequence of the civil war
in America, had fallen off to all other parts of the world the
exports to Italy had increased. Last year he had explained
that although, according to the new Italian tariff, the tariff
of Naples had been reduced 80 per cent., yet the customs'
receipts had only fallen off to the extent of 17,000,000 francs,
showing that the trade of the country had increased fivefold.
That was a most remarkable fact. The hon. member seemed
to think that because the trade of Italy with England had
not increased, that therefore its trade with the rest of the
world had fallen off. Now, the fact was, that the trade of
Italy with the zest of the world had increased enormously.
(Cheers.)
Lord H. LENNOX, as an independent member, desired
to speak as to facts connected with the present condition of
Italy, which had come under his own eyes. But first let
him observe, that no one who knew him doubted but that
his warmest sympathies were with the cause of the Italian
people; and that even in the days of Magenta and S lfe-
fetino, when many of the friends of Italy dissociated them-
selves from the cause, through a dread and jealousy Of
French interference, he had never shared that dread or that
jealousy. But when such facts as he had seen in Italy came
under his notice, it was impossible to remain blindfolded
with respect to the real condition of the country. He de-
sired to raise four questions. In the first place, he would
ask whether it was true that at the present moment there
prevailed in the Neapolitan Kingdom a system of personal
domestic espionage; secondly, whether there existed, not
merely at Naples, but at Genoa, Florence, Milan, and Bo-
logna, a perfectly free press, and at that point he was at
direct issue with the Under. Secretary of State, for he had
visited every one of those towns; thirdly, he invited the
house to examine whether under the benign rule of Victor
Emmanuel there existed that complete personal liberty of
which the Under-Secretary spoke; and fourthly, he would
answer the challenge of the hon. gentleman, by directing at-
tention to the state of the Italian prisons. Now, with re-
spect to the system of espionage, he begged to say, upon
his personal responsibility, that the very same system,
worked by the very same agents, as prevailed under the
Bourbon regime was still maintained, and that it was not
persons of low caste that were subjected to its influence,
but men of birth and education.—men too who had suffered
under the rule of Ferdinand and Francis 11. He had a list
of those persons by him, and either the hon. gentleman or
the noble lord at the head of the Government w( re perfectly
welcome to look over that list, although he dare not make
them public in that house. In support of his assertion that
perfect liberty of person did not exist in Naples, the
noble lord stated that since his visit to Naples two months
since, and not more than a week or two since, 200 indivi •
duals, men, women, and children, had been swept off into
prison, only on suspicion of sympathy with the Bourbons,
(Cheers.) With regard to the absence of freedom of the
press, he would observe that every morning in the Neapo-
litan States each paper was submitted, before it was pub-
lished, to as official called the Questor,who was empowered
to confiscate ane seize such as he disapproved of, and even
to suppress them altogether, Such confiscations and sup-
pressions were not confined to Naples, for they also took
place in other parts of Italy. Within a month a newspaper
of Florence, called the al uova Europa, had been seized four
times in nine days, and finally the editor had been heavily
fried, and imprisoned for three months. Another paper,

celebrated for its thoroughly liberal sentiments, had come
to the same untimely end. In Milan the Persereranza had
been confiscated for republish;ng a despatch from Earl Rus-
sell t
to the Turin Government. In the Romagna a newspaper
which
had been in existence only two years had been sup-
pressed 24 times, one of its editors being fined and imprisoned
for two Years for reprinting articles from Piedmontese news-
papers. Many journalsa were suppressed in one province
and allowed to circulates in another, showing how complete
the unity of Italy v
(Laughter.) In three years 27
journals had died altogether,
havingil been suppressed by the
been
police and never havingowed to reappear. The noble
lord quoted the case, of one aeditor,whose office had been at-
tacked by mobs and destroyed had bimself been
threatened with assassination if hetwhalltote°rapted to republish
protection of the Go-
his journal, and who, in claiming
prison
vernment for this purpose, had beenP
on the charge that his protest against the outrage into
loyal. The Government had thus set the stragepwastht:
approval on this threat of assassination. Wattmh-
liberty of action in the Neapolitan States, the nroael;!seittr-c-1
proceeded to state that he had arrived at Naples,
partisan of Victor Emmanuel's Government, but what he
had seen in going over the prisons in Naples had induced
him to modify his opinion. He had visited those prisons
with a member of the Turin Parliament, who, for having
accompanied him, had since been suspected of entertaining
reactionary sentiments, had been the object of newspaper
attacks, and finally had been summoned before a judge to
answer for having conspired against his country. The second
interrogatory part to put him was whether Lord Lennox was
not a parents of Lord Normanby, :who appeared to be the
bugbear of the Italian Government. (Hear.) Having stated
what he had as to liberty of person and of discussion, as to
liberty of the press, and as to the system of espionage, he
confidently appealed to the house to know whether ho was
not right in charging the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs with having misled the people of England
last year by stating that the change in Italy had raised the
people from the " verge of slavery to the enjoyment of the
fullest liberty." (Laughter.) With regard to personal
liberty, the noble lord stated the result of a visit made by
him to the prisons of Naples, where, he said, nothing could
be described as badly conducted so far as regarded
tried and convicted felons; but, as regarded .poli-
Bttc6ahr,
l opriae ners the ease was different. He bad seen Mr.
'act la another cell found a prisoner who had

been twenty-three months incarcerated, without having
been tried or even interrogated, on suspicion of being
a revolutionist. On leaving that cell he had n sur-
rounded by a crowd of similar prisoners ing out
" Why are we in prison ? why are we not ju d F'' An
appeal made to the governor of the prison led to the state-
ment on his part that he deeply regretted to say that he had
no less than eighty-three prisoners confined, H ho had never
been convicted or even preliminarily examined. Many of
these prisoners were most miserable objects, and not at all
likely to be dangerous to a Liberal Government. Onleav-
ing the prison they inscribed their names in the books, in
accordance with the rules of the place. After mentioning
the courtesy of the officials, and the cleanliness of the build-
ing, they appended their protest that they could not help
observing with regret that so many persons were detained
there untried, many of them uninterrogated, and not know-
ing from the authorities the cause of their imprisonment.
After he had left the prison he began to have misgivings of
the blissful enjoyment of liberty by the Neapolitans. In the
second pr son he visited, which was the debtors' prison, he
found amongst the inmates who were confined for debt two
men who had been convicted and sentenced—one to impri-
sonment for life for homicide, and the other fourteen years
for forgery. There were also one Li- hop and five priests
there, neither of whom had been informed for what he was
confined, and one of whom was over seventy years of age,
who was kept cn the prison diet of one meal a day with cold
water. He next visited the women's prison, where he found
a large number of women confined for their political sym-
pathies. (Hear, hear.) The most ridiculous cass was that
of three femal, s—three unhappy sisters—who had been con-
fined for twenty-two months, because, as they learnt ten
months before, when they were taken before the magistrate
they were suspected of having hung a Bourbon flag out of a
window, but which in reality were the bed sheets that they
had hung out to dry. (Hear, and laughter.) And with those
who were confined for political offences were associated wo-
men of the lowest class and of the most abandoned characters.
When he visited the fourth prison, the gaoler informed him
that it was capable of accommodating 650, but that 1,359
were at Lhat time incarcerated within its walls. The result
of the overcrowding had been that a virulent typhus fever
had broken out amongst the inmates, and that if under the
circumstances he wished to inspect the prison he could do
so. He went in, and he found in one cell eight or nine priests,
about 14 laymen suspected of political offences, and 10 or 12
convicted felons. In the next cell there were about 157, the
greater part of whom were untried. During the whole day
(with the exception of a short time they were allowed for
exercise in a wretched yard) and all night they were kept in
that cell, not knowing for what they were there, and with
them was a man convicted of murder, and who was to be
executed the week after. In the next roam he found 230 of
these wretched men, and the state of filth and squalor in
which he found them would require an abler an I more elo-
quent tongue than his to adequately describe. They were
men of different classes, who had been condemned to that
living death because they had listened to the voice of Gari-
baldi. Many of them had been imprisoned so long that
their clothes had worn out, and they had not money with
which to purchase others. One was in a state of absolute
nudity. He had no shirt or trousers, and only a ragged coat,
which he threw over his shoulders; anc his condition was
so bad that ha could not rise to make his obeisance and ask
for mercy from the strangers. (Hear, hear.) The stench was
fearful then (which was in the month of January), and
what, he asked, must it be now that the hot weather had set
in ? (Hear.) The food supplied to them would not heve
been given to cattle in this country, and the bread was so
hard that he was unable to make an impression on it with
his foot. In the next room were 303 persons confined—one
was dumb, and another a hunchback—but all protesting
against the so-called clemency of the Government. In the
prison which had been visited by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and which he had described as a charnel-house, he
found 1,200 confined there in a space allotted for not more
than 600. There were but one gaoler and 14 warders
to control these wretched beings, and the gaolers, both
in that and all the other persons, implored him to use his
influence to obtain an alteration of the present system of
overcrowding; and he gave an emphatic denial to the state-
ment made by Mr. Bonham that the atrocities committed
upon those wretched individuals were due to the cruelties of
Bourbon gaolers. (Hear, hear.) In that building he found
850 confined in five rcoms, running one into another, with
only open iron rails between them. As soon as he appeared
amongst them he was beset with petitions and entreaties ;
and as soon as they heard he was an Englishman they
formed the vain hope that he had come to relieve them from
the greatest cruelty and oppression. In fact, what he saw
there he could only compare to "the hell-tortured victims"
in Dante's " Inferno." The noble lord then described his
visit to between 40 and 50 conspirators. He did not sym-
pathise wi:h conspirators, and their crime was that they had
deserted Victor Emmanuel, and had listened to the voice of
that great and honest man, Gar it aldi ; and if any man
might in such a case temper justice with mercy that man
was Victor Emmanuel. ( Hear, hear.) In a most miserable
and narrow cell, with four iron bedsteads, without a table or
books to cheer them, he found four men chained two and
two with the heaviest of irons. It was at first difficult to
recognise in that situation so distinguished a man as Count
Christian, but he made a sign and said " I appreciate your
feeling. You feel pity for me. Don't do that, but feel pity
for those who desecrate the name of freedom by treatment
such as this lam now suffering." (Rear, hear.) Signor
Carraciolo, with another political offender was there, and
he was chained to a man who had been a brigand, and who
was convicted of robbery and manslaughter. In that con-
dition he found those gentlemen, whose misfortune it had
been to differ in opinion with the Government, and whose
crime had been to conspire against them chained with
the heaviest of irons to the commonest of malefactors.
(Hear, hear.) Against such a system as that he entered
his protest. He cared not whether such deeds of dark-
ness were done under a Bourbon, or under the pseudo
liberality of Victor Emmanuel, but in the name of England
he denounced the commission of such barbarous atrocities.
The captives all desired to be tried. To the end of every
vista, however long, they had a spark of hope, and did they
bit know their fate that spark of light would grow longer
and larger as the period for their liberty arrived. Their
present suffering was intolerable, and many of them believed
that the certainty of imprisonment for life (which would
destroy the hope of a release) would be preferable to their
present state of intolerable suspense. He hoped the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would exercise his influence
with the Government and put a stop to such a state of things
as he had described, and prevent its leading to the graves
European complications. (Cheers).
_ _

Mr. BUTLER-JOHNSTONE, in a vory promising first
speech, admitted some of the grievances complained of by
Lord H. Lennox in the state of the Neapolitan prisons and
the detention of persons without trial, but suggested various
considerations which should mitigate the responsibility of
the Italian Government. He pointed out the mass of evils
with which that Government had to centend placing it in
a position, he said, in which no other Government ever

found itself. The existing state of things in Italy was
exceptional, and would pass away. Time was required to
admit of radical improvements in a society infested by in-
veterate vices, which the present Government had set itself
sincerely to work to eradicate.

Mr. GOWER defended the Italian Government in regard
to the state of the Neapolitan prisons. He thought that
Lord H. Lennox had been intentional), misled upon the
subject by reactionary agents. With reference to the con-
dition a Italy, he enumerated a variety of material and
moral improvements introduced since the change of rulers.
Sir G. BOWYER argued at some length that the South
of Italy was really in a state of insurrection, the so-called
brigands being supported by the whole body of the popu-
lation ; and he dwelt upon the severities exercised by the
Piedmontese Government towards Southern Italy, which
was trodden down, he said, by a merciless despotism, lie
held h•r Majesty's Ministers responsible for the state of
things in Ita y.

Mr, AGAR-ELLIS, speaking from personal examina-
tion, gave a far less unfavourable description of the Neapo-
litan prisons than Lord H. Lennox.
After some remarks by Sir P. O'BRIEN',
Mr. COCHRANE said the Government had either been
kegt in ignorance by their own agents of what was passing
in Italy, or they had been culpably silent. He produced a
nominal list of 188 persons shot in cold blood by the Pied-
montese Government in the first three months of the pre-
sent year, and also a proclamation which he denounced as
infamous. He thought her Majesty's Government had
failed in the cause of humanity.
Mr. W HALLEY protested against the whole discussion.
Due notice should, he thought, be given of such a debate.
Mr. MAGUIRE animadverted upon what he termed the
inflammatory address of Mr. Layard, uttered in reply to the
most temperate speech of Mr. Bentinck. What, he asked,
had been the result of the violation of international law and
the machinations of Victor Emmanuel and the policy of
her
an d Majesty's
ashan.l Governmentathe state
of F
things A unity
described that was
he a r mck oy
Majesty's

Government was asked to interfere and remonstrate in a
friendly manner with that of Piedmont, in order to put an

end to the atrocities perpetrated in Italy.
toLthoordouPtAjeLetNlofEtßheSTdeObNat—e, Itowsiesthr,igbheftoa
reladdres
misrepresentation
which has been made with regard to the conduct of Mr
Ode Russell in a particular transaction. An hon. member—
sy s s
lf
n
I am ashamed to say I do not recollect who—quoted from a
Brussels paper, Le Nord, an account of a supposed conver-
sation between Mr. Odo Russell and the French General
commanding in Rome. (Sir G. Bowyer---" I did not.")
Whoever it was, I would recommend him never to consult
that paper again. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. BOWYER—I did not sp=ak from information de.
rived from any newspaper. I spoke from more trustworthy
information. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMER&I.ON—The paper, -Le Nord, was men-
tioned, and the conversation was quoted from that paper.
(Hear.) That assumed conversation was a great reflection
upon the good breeding of the French General, because it
is unusual for gentlemen in society to make use of the ex.
pression which is attributed to the French General, and,
knowing him to be a gentleman of refined manners, I do not
at all believe that he used it. The facts of the case were these
—Mr. Odo Russell received information from persons whom
he believed to be trustworthy, but whose names he was not at
liberty to mention, that certain brigandshad passed out of the
Papal territory in French uniforms, not furnished by the
French Government, but by those persons who supplied the

meaw of the expedition, The French Government denied the