The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-14 00:00:00

;inter than the independent labourer possesses, yet the re-w;
traint is so irksome to them that they are not willing to sub-
, cet themselves to it, except when really in a state of destitu-
,ion. This has been proved clearly by the Assistant Corn-
:rOssioners to he the manner in which the Poor-law works.
I. :have consulted two of the Commissioners, with whom I

happen to be acquainted, on the subject, and they both say
'..he focd is wholesome, and the workhouse accommodation
is better than that possessed by the independent poor, but
the confinement renders it irksome, and in that way the
evorkhouse becomes a place that the poor would gladly
-avoid the necessity of having recourse to. It is to these
principles, and to this experience, that we must look very
much as a guide in any Poor-law that we shall intro=
duce for Ireland. We ought to he unwilling on the one
hand to introduce a system whic'e will generate- the abuses
which have resulted from the English Poor-law ; we
ought to be very willing, on the other hand, if we can, to, in-
troduce some of those good effoctswhich have resulted to Eng-
land from her system while it was attended with beneficial con-
sequences. The Poor-law Commissioners for Ireland, in the
course of last session, madea report which was laid before this
House, in which they recommended many measures ofim-
provement for Ireland, and in which they suggested certain
measures with regard. to the indigent. It is this measure with
regard to the relief of the indigent to which I would call the
attention of the House, as the principal object of the Bill I am,
now about to 'introduce. The other suggestions for the ge-
neral improvement of Ireland, though I may touch on teem
this evening, I propose to leave for future consideration. • The
Poor-law Commissioners, with regard to this questiote of im-
mediate relief of the destitute, propose in the first place that a
large class of persons should be provided for at the public ex-
pense by means of a national and local rate. They advise also
that there should he money afforded for emigration, and that
1 depots should be provided for persons preparing to emigrate.
1 In considering that report great doubts occurred to his Majes-
, ty's Ministers whether it was a good principle to provide only
for certain classes, and whether those depots for emigration
• could be safely and advantageously adopted. It appears from
1 every reflection on the subject that there can be no reason for
saying why there are to be only certain classes to which relief is
I to be extended, that is, provided we arc prepared to admi-
nister relief. The different classes to whom it is proposed to
g'se relief are here enumerated :—The Noble Lord here read
am extract from the last Report of the Commissioners for in-
n quiring into the state of Ireland, and stating that in their opi-
nion relief out to be given to lunatics, to persons who were
deaf, blind, and all the la.bouriug poor that were infirm ; that
they should be supported within the walls of public institu-
tions; that for the sick who remained at home there ought
also to be institutions to supply them with medicines ; that
I helpless widows with children ought to be supplied, as well as
other persons similarly situated ; and also suggesting the sup-
port of persons intending to emigrate. The Noble Lord then
continued, by saying—Now this enumeration contains so
many persons, there arc so many classes of persons embraced
in it, that you could not, if you undertook to provide for so
many classes, exclude others. Including these, I certainly
cannot see what objection there can be to provide for the des-
titute and able-bodied man.—( Hear, hear.) There are some
I persons in this list, such as the incurable lunatic, the helpless
widow with young children, or the sick man—now these are
persons in such circumstances, as it is recommended that re-
lief should be afforded to ; and which circumstances seemed to
us calculated to excite individual compassion, and not circum-
stances to which exclusive national regard ought to be had.
If a person in the five-and-twentieth year of his age, in the
full possession of his health and strength, and unable by his
industry to obtain a livelihood, or who had not the means of
support, were to stand at the doors of one of those public insti-
tutions starving, in want of support, and who was likely, if not
relieved, to die in a few days, I cannot understand the princi-
ple that would distinguish a person in that case as one to
whom you would not give relief, when you give relief to the
young and infirm. The real principle to be adopted on this
subject is, to afford relief to the destitute—to the destitute,
and nothing else—( Hear, hear)—and it would, in my opinion,
be quite as wrong to refuse relief to the able-bodied person in
that situation, as to afford relief to the cripple, to the widow,
to a deaf or a dumb person, who was in a state of affluence,
and had other meane of support. It is not, then, the peculiar
circumstances which excite public or individual compassion
that we are to regard ; but, if we have a Poor-law at all, it
ought to be grounded on destitution, as affording a plain guide
to relief. Then, with respect to the other proposition, that
there ought to be a Penitentiary, to which the paupers ought
to be sent, and that there ought to be depots for those intend-
ing to emigrate, if you are willing to adopt a plan to that ex-
tent, of having a Penieeitiary for vagrants and depots for emi -
grants, it is, I say, far better for you to adopt the workhouse
system at once ; because if you have a depot for emigrants, it
will afford, it appears to me, great ground for abuses. Suppose
you get 500 or 600 persons in a depot for emigration, it will
be difficult to apply to them that restriction, and enfoice that
discipline which you could do if they were hi a workhouse.
It may be said than they are mel.ely paseengcrs—that they
are in a sort of public inn or hotel until they take their
passage, and they are not, therefore to be treated as paupers
entirely dependent for support upon the public. Thus, then,
they cannot be restricted nor placed under the same disci-
pline as if they were in a workhouse : and besides, there is
no security that they will avail themselves of emigration,
for supposing 300 out of 500 who have been for two or three
months in one of those work houses are told that the ship
is ready in which they were to have embarked, and they
refuse to 7n, what means have you to compel them, unless
you resort to that which would be so odious as to be impos-
sible to be carried into effect, that is, oblige men to emi-
grate ? Thus, then, after supporting them in the depot you
must let them go at large, and they would only go to per-
severe in their usual habits of vagrancy.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
It appears, therefore, to us that you could not adopt that
part of the subject without a great deal niece of considera-
tion than the plan proposed by the Commissioners appears to
us to have received. And deeply impressed, as we have
been, with the responsibility that attaches to a- Government
which proposes a law upon this subject, it occurred to us that
the best method of forming a judgment on the subject was
seeing whether that law which has been applied to England
could, as we understood the Noble Lord, be inforced in Ireland
with advantage to that country. For this purpose Mr. Nicholls,
one of the Poor-law Commissioners, and who i 3 so well known
for his worth, abilities, and intelligence, I requested to go
over to Ireland, and ascertain on the spot whether anething
resembling the machinery of the English Poor-law could he
applied there. I should mention here that Mr. Nicholls,
who has had great experience upon this subject, even before
the amended Poor-law came into operation, had in one
district of this country adopted an improved method in the
working of those laws, even before the amended law was
carried; but this also ought to be stated, that in the early
part of lest year lie drew my attention to the subject of a
Poor-law for Ireland, and I have been in constant commu-
nication with him on this matter since the commencement
of the session of 1836. As I was sure that lie was qualified
by abilities and experience, so was I also aware that he would
carry into the examination of this subject equal caution
and zeal. Mr. Nicholls, then, proceeded to Ireland, and the
result of his inquiries was, that, supposing it was expedient
to extend a Poor-law to Ireland, there was no effectual ob-
stacle, no sufficient objection to the establishment of a Poor-
law in many respects resembling the amended Poor-law in
England.—( Hear, hear.) The reasons of that opinion are
given at considerable length in the report which I have the
honour of laying this day on the table ; and I will now
state generally what are the reasons given in that report,
and why I think it is expedient to establish a Poor-law in
Ireland, and to describe what is the nature of the Poor-law
that I mean to propose.—( Hear.) I think there can be no
doubt of its expediency, if the House will bear in mind the
description which I gave of this country in the reign of
Queen Elizabeth—there can be no doubt that there has pre-
vailed in Ireland many outrages consequent upon vagrancy
and destitution, and the people being left without a remedy
or relief. It has happened in Ireland (I do not now inquire
as to the causes, but the fact cannot be disputed), that while
the people themselves—unlike the population here—have not
improved in their condition, that the population has in-
creased very much in numbers, that there has been this
increase in population while there has scarcely been an
increase in the means of subsistence, or what I call the
standard of subsistence raised.—( Hear, hear.) So that
after a long period of time it is found that there prevails in
Ireland, according to the report of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners of Ireland, such an overplus of labour that four agri-
cultural labourers in Ireland only produced as much as one
agricultural labourer produces in England. That, it is
to be observed, cannot fairly be attributed to a want of in-
dustry amongst the Irish people; on the contrary, we have
it in the evidence of those examined by Mr. Lewis, and par-
ticularly from one gentleman of Birmingham, that he never
found the Irish labourer to refuse work, or fail to perform
it to the utmost of his industry and capability. There is
not, then, a want of industry amongst the people. It is
the country that has been allowed to be in such a state
that industry cannot operate upon it. It is admitted that
the only subsistence of the peasant is derived from the land
which he has—it is taken from his small holding—it is not
from the gain of regular wages ; and where there are regular
wages received in particular districts these wages are received
only by a part, and not by the whole, of the labouring popula-
tion. The peasant gets his subsistence out of his small hold-
ing; the labourers live upon the potatoes raised by themselves
out of that small portion of land they get; and it is by means
ofits possession and the use of their industry, often very ill-
directed, and nut by the application of wages from labour, that
they are able to maintain existence. The result of this is
stated by the Poor-law Commissioners (though that is a
statement of which I doubt the accuracy), that there are
nearer to three than two millions of people, for a certain
portion of the year, in an entire state of destitution—
( Hear, hear.) 'There is no doubt whatever of this, that a
large portion of the people of Ireland, especially those not
having land, do practise mendicancy for a great portion of
the year.—(Hear, hear.) I have made some inquiry with re-
spect to the amount and extent of the relief thus afforded to
that mendicancy, because it is to be considered that when we
say we will adopt a Poor-law (and that we should adopt
such a proposition is my opinion), it is to be remembered
that a very considerable tax is now raised on the farmers of
that country by mendicants-4 Hear)—and which, I may say
is now raised as a compulsory rate. With this view I asked
of my Noble Friend who sits near me, the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland, to obtain as accurate an account as pos-
sible of the amount paid in this way from two or three farmers
in ten or twelve districts—the amount that was paid for rent,
the amount paid for tithes, the amount paid to the Roman Ca-
tholic priests, and the amount paid to mendicants. The result
is, I should say, that in most cases a shilling an acre is paid in
the course of the year by the farmers for the support of men-
dicants. In some cases it has been 6d. an acre, in others 9d.
an acre ;
,but in one case, where a person had a farm not very
considerable in size, it was more than 2s. an acre. That per.
son paid 101. a year, not in money certainly, but in food. There