The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

RVENING EDITION.

it will be trespassing sufficiently, if not too much, on the
attention of the House, if I call their attention rather to
some of the leading principles which have—been in ques..
tion between one side of the House and the other; and if
I endeavour to show how far those principles are contained,
or are not contained, in the plan now before the House.
The Right Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has, I
think, very incompletely and imperfectly answered the
arguments of my Right lien. Friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. ( Hear,. hear.) He has not fully,
although I think he has by implication' answered
the question, whether it is now to be assorted that the
principle to be hereafter declared by him, and by those
who agree with him on the other side of the House is,
that no education is to be supported and encouraged by
the State, but that which is under the entire and exclu-
sive control of the Church.—( Hear, hear. ) The Right
lion. Gentleman has very nearly come to that conclusion—
( Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—because, while he has
stated the principle of toleration, he has stated likewise
that he does not think there ought to be any
grant of public money to teach any assenting
creed, and that such instruction would be quite in-
ems stent with the principle of an Established
Church. Now, Sir, I must say from that principle I
totally and entirely dissent.—( Cheers.) I think you must
adopt a principle which the Noble Lord who :poke first
in this debate. has adopted from the enlightened times of
the reign of Henry I V.—( Laughter.) You must say
that to the Chnrch and to the Church only, was to be left
the education of the people, but then that must be an
education conducted as the Church then intended to con-
duct it, as her own establishment, with her own funds, with
hero a n colleges, and without asking a vote in a Committee of
Supply, which in the reign of Henry the IV , perhaps was
not asked, for public education.—( Hear, and laughter.)
When once you establish what I think we have now es-
tablished by the vote of some years—when you once
establish that the public ought to promote education by
grants—when you say that out of the public taxes should
come money for education—that you will promote schools
out of those grants, then I cannot consent to the principle
that aiy persons on account of their relgion should be
debarred from the Innefits of those grants—(Cheers)--
and that by giving to certain classes names which at
the time may be unpopular, you should debar them from
etijoying the fruits and advantages of public money which
you take. indiscriminattly from their wealth, from their
means, and from their resources, as well t s from those who
belong to the Established Church.—(Cheers.) Sir, in
asserting this principle, I do not think I am departing in
the least from the great principle of an Established Church.
I hold that having an Established Church that in all places
•
where her administration can properly be effected, the
teaching of the Established Religion should be main-
tained ; but I do nut think that schools supported by the
State mane under that denornioation.—( Hear.) While,
therefore, I uphold and am ready to admire the efforts
which the Church his of late years made to promote edu-
cation, and while I think it is just and allowable in the
members of the Chu; ch to say it is necessary to teach their
own doctrines in schools so supported, I utterly deny that
in proposing a vote of public money, we are to be guided
by such principles, or are to lay down such rules.—( Cheers.)
It is a diFfereat matter in what respect this principle is to
be carried into effect. There were objections made to
the first plan proposed by the Government, but let it be
observed, that one of tire many objections, and which the
Noble Lord who proposed this motion, stated in the very
commencement of his address to the Elouse, was an ad-
dress founded entirely on a misapprehension—it was an
objection founded on the notion that the principles with
regard to the teaching of religion which were to be
adopted in the normal school, were to be the principle
:Ina model of all the various schools in the kingdom. Now,
on thin subject I will venture to read a passage from what
was delivered by me in this House in February last,
when I gave an outline of the plan of education to be adop-
ted. It must be obvious that any Government attempting
any scheme of education in this country, teal find it very
difficult to do so, because the ground is already occupied
in difftreent parts of the kingdom
,by Societies which have
taken the subject in hand, as well as by the Established
Church and the Western Methodists, and ati. other Dis-
senting Societies, who promotecourses of education accord-
ing to their religious opinions. No one scheme of educa-
tion could be adopted without offering great violence to
the feelings of the country, and such scheme must be
unsuccessall if attempted. And notwithstanding this pos-
tage, which I think is a clear declaration of our opinions
And intention, care has been taken to represent that which
is a scheme for normal schools as a scheme to he adopted
throughout the country for all schools.—(Cheers.) Gen-
tlemen have talked very much of the difficulty of carrying into
effect any system of religion which in schools should be
adapted to the teaching of each particular sect; and the Noble
Lord the Member for Darsetshire went on for a full h elf
hour about the term general religion, which is not to be
found in any part of the plan or scheme. But the fact is,
that with respect to religious instruction this difficulty is
got over in many of the schools of this kingdom—it is got
over in the schools conducted not only by the British and
Foreign School Society, of which I tun a Member, and
the principles of which I certainly adopt, but it is got.
over in many of the schools belonging to the Esta-
blished Church.—(Greet cheering.) In many of the
schools, the Scriptures are read on week days, they reserve
the catechisms for Sundays, and allow Dissenters to go to
their own places of worship, and receive their own re-
ligious instruction from Dissenting teachers on Sundays.
Therefore, so far from this being an insuperable difficulty,
it is one which is overcome every week in the year, and
not cn!y under the superintendence of a Government which
has adopted a scheme which is said to be irreligious, but it
is a scheme adopted by clergymen of the Established
Church, wishing to instruct the people of their own parish,
and at the same time to admit there ought to be an
allowance made for - the faith of Dissenters, whom they
were not prepared to exclude.—( Hear, bear.) I do
aot wish particularly to go into the phrases objected
to with regard to the first plan proposed by the Committee
'Of the Privy Council, whilst I am ready to decla-e that
the principles on which that plan is founded are perfectly
sound. But I must say that the gentlemen arguing is
tills House, have gone far beyond what others have thought
itenecessary to say, who were themselves the ministers of
religion.—( Hear, hear.) We have been told it is a proof
of the irreligious tendency of our schemes, that anything
Would be taught in the schools which may specifically
apply' to the Church of England, and those sects dissent-
ing from it. Do they mean to say there can be no religious
inttruction except that which carefully marks the diffe-
rence between the Church and the Independents, or Bap-
tists, or any other peculiar sect? I will mention
one book to which I suppose gentlemen will not object
as a religous book, I mean Paley's Evidences
of Christianity. Ile says he has carefully formed his
arguments in such a manner as not to offend any class of
Christians or those who hold any particular tenets.—
( Hear, hear.) If that be lawful in Paley—if that book is
a book which any person might be glad to read, and draw
instruction from—am Ito be told it is a proof that in-
struction cannot be given without making these distinc-
tions?—(Cheers.) I will mention another authority—
Fenelon, who has written an admirable treatise with re-
gard to female education, insisting greatlyion religious in-
struction, stating the manner in which it should be given,
pointing out that it should not be given in a formal manner,
but that the child's attention be drawn to what it learns.
It has been objected that the work of Fenelon on religious
education for children was reprehensible, and, in conclu-
sion, because it did not deprive and insist upon the dis-
tinctive doctrines of the Protestant and the Roman
Catholic Churches. It may be so ; but if these were the
errors of Paley and Fcnelon, I had rather imitate the
errors of such illustrious and pious predecessors than adopt
the errors of the doctrines now proposed.—( Cheers.) The
Hon. Member for Newark, and ether Hon. Members, have
adopted exclusive doctrines, which, as I have before said,
if practised, would lead the way to persecution and intole-
rance, fur it is clear that they would object, not only to
the new grounds of education, but that they would also
attack those liberties already established in this and the
sister country, from the Insurrection Act down to
the present time.—(Loud cheers.) With regard
to the main principles of our object, lam happy to per-
ceive that many Hon. Gentlemen at the opposite side are
almost ready to admit their justice. We propose that the
grant should be in a great degree divided between the
National Society and the British and Foreign School So-
ciety. And it is proposed to devote another small part of
the grant to institutions which are not benefited by those
Societies, on the ground of the poverty of a district,
or of their schools not being connected with those So-
cieties. The Henourable Gentlemen opposite do not
object to this, hut they deny the principle on which the 1
motion for to-night is founded. They say that they would
not object to a plan administered by the Lords of the
Treasury ; but, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a
very harmless person at the Treasury, he would be very
dangerous at the Board of the Privy Council. But they
chiefly object to the proposed inspection and reports of the
co Intact of schools. The proposal of to• night is 71-alluded
on this fact. It is it misfortune that a great deal of the edu-
c ited of this country—l do not now refer to the Church,
or impute any blame to it—especially the education dis-
pensed by those two great Societies—consists of
rending, writing, and arithmetic, but contains
nothing to affect the hearts and minds of the pupils.—
It is not enough to state that there arc 59 000 children
taught by the National Society, and that more than one
million are combined under the tuition of the Sunday
Schools. From the Reports that have been submitted to
Parliament, and the Government, it seems that the qua-
lity of that education is exceedingly low.—( Hear, hear.)
In illustration of the present lamentable state of education
in this country, I could refer to many passages of autho-
rity, but I shall restrict myself to a few, frem Chaplains of
ao ,• ls of the Church of England. The Chaplain of the
gaol of Lancaster states, that out of 993 prisoners 37 could
the
incivpal was
so one
fraemadilitahre
with the
PHeaoylyer
sacnrdipttuhreeslanbdle.
religion. Of 516 entirely ignorant, 124 could repea
20t the
Lord's Prayer. Of 1,129 prisoners, not more than or
30 had habitually attended D:vine worship. There is an
almost general desertion of the House of God, by males in
the prime of life in dense populations in large towns.
Now is not this a dreadful picture of the state
of life amongst 'a large mass of the people
of this country ?.--(1Iear)-s-and does it not deserve the
serious consideration of this House, with a view whether
something may not ha alone in the way of promoting
sound moral, and, I may add, religious instruction?—
( Cheers.) Let it not be objected that a portion of this
grant would be devoted to the promotion of Roman Catho-
licism and Socinianistn. I own that even is this prospect
there would seem to me to be great and counterbalancing
advantages —(Cheers.) The bulk of the people would
at least receive instructions in the simple elements of reli-
gious truth; and even if I agree with the Right Hon.
Gentlemen opposite on Roman Catholic and Seciaian in-
struction, I am not prepared to say that I should be de-
terred to move towards them ; for I think practical infi-
delity and indifference are more likely to make progress
amongst our dense growing population, than that refined
infidelity which can only be this result cf complicated
arguments that can only be appreciated by
comparatively
few minds.—(Cheers.)
- have piven the House one
extract from the opinion of the Chaplain of-the county
gaol cf Lancaster. I will no trespass ao
far on your
attention as to give to the House an extract from a Report

which I received only two days ago from a clergyman from I
whom I had not risked for' any—Report ore this subject, with
whom I am noacquainted, but whom I never saw, whom I
have, on account of his' high character, appointed to the
office of Chaplain of Parkhurst Prison for juvenile con-
victs. lle says in his Report on the religious and moral
state of the prisoners in Parkhurst Prison,- that he is
surprised at the number of those who We acquired the
mechanical elements of knowledge,. such as residing and
writing, and who possess butt dittle actual knowledge
of their moral or religious dutiesr • They have learnt
to repeat the words, but have never had the subjects
to which those words alluded explained to them. Fifty-
eight of the children were able to read and repeat the
Church Catechism, forty-three possessed some knowledge
of the Holy Scrlpturz s, but only twenty-nice could give
a little account of what they had read, and of these the
greater portion seemed to give this explanation in conse-
quence aan intellectual exertion made at the time, and
not asehe result of memory. Another remarkable fact
connected with the inmates of Parkhurst Prison was, that
by far the larger proportion of them had received instruction
in the various schools ,pith which this country is supplied.
Oat of 103 prisoners 95 had attended different schools,
72 of them as day echelars for a longer period than a year,
eight only had never been at school, and of 31 prisoners,
who were seat to Parkhurst Pi ism when it was first
upened, there were only two who had never attended a school.
I say that lids -leservesthe attention of the Han e. Hitherto
we have been too apt to ematent ourselves with enabling a
child to read, and considering that when we have done so
we have given that child education, bat what is really
worthy to be designated as educadon, is to excite the
intellect of the child, to teach it the 'meaning of the
words it reads.--( Loud cheer.) The great distinction in
the modern art of terching seems to me to be this, that
instead of merely burdening the memory of a child, the
child is excited to teach itself ; its interest and curiosity are
excited so as to make it follow its lesson with pleasure, and
thus instruction is obtained which is most useful in the _re-
ligious and moral training of the child. I will now allude
to another part of the plan which has been- thesubject of
much misrepresentation. I allude to the claim made
by the Committee of the Privy Council to exercise
the right of inspection over these schools, which
are to perticipa'e in the benefit of the grant : Aids'
was at once seized hold of to represent that it was
the intention of the Committee to lay down its own regu-
lations for the guidance of these school. We have no
normal 'sei.ools of our own, it would be therefore useless
and impossible for us to attempt to interfere with the reli- •
gious instruction adopted by the Schools of the National
Society—but what we ask-is to be informed of the method
of instruction pursued in those schools' which are to para.-
cipate in the benefit of this gran:, and where we find a
good and successful method of secular instruction, we may
I well confide to the religious instruction whioh will be of the
same nature--but where, on the contrary, we find that a low
and coercive method of secular instruction is followed, we
may rest assured that there the religious instruction will be
valueless, it will f-Illike seed on barren ground —( Cheers.)
On these grounds I propose the plan of the Privy Council.
It contains within itself', in my opinion, two very great
advantages, and by which every plan for the education of
the people ought to be guided. Ido not say that the
children of the Established Church should be excluded
from the advantages of any plan of national education,
but that all grants should go to the use of the people,
without any
_distinction of sect, and on this plan, of
course, the greater portion of the grant will go the Na-
tional Church, as by far the larger number of schools are
in connexion with the National Society. The second
advantage is the establishment of a, good and efficient
system of inspection. Timis scheme will bring, before
Parliament annually the great subject of education,
and it will tend to make that great and important
subject a matter of interest and concern for the State
which it never yc t has been. I feel, Sir, the difficulties of
bringing forward any plan which does not only excite
misrepresentetioa and becomes matter of patty. strug-
gle, but which does excite conscientious scruples and
Bars in pers.:ma of excellent intenlions. I feel that obloquy
to which a pint of this kind would subject me ; and
allow me to say a few words upon that which has pressed
on my mind in the course of the last fortnight,
When I consider the conduct of former Governments, 20
or 30 years ago, I cannot but think if at the commencement
of this Scssioa we had endeaeoured to excite alarm, if we had
said that the Chartists Ii td excited commotion; and that
the Habeas Corpus Act mast be suspended, we should
then have found, or, at least, the Government of former
days would have found, that alarm was easily x-
cited, and fiat the Government had set itself at the bead
of the cry that had provoked the alarm —( Hear, hear.) It
has been my anxious wish, and still more my anxious la-
bour to cedeaveur, without any alteration of the law, with-
out attemptiog—w d hich I was - ..:terminsd not to do ti!l
the last moment, namely to destroy the constitutional
rights of Englishmen, that which might interfere with acct
subdue that which appeared to me to ensure the peace and
security of the country ; but while I was doins, this it cer-
tainly appened to me that every oecasion ought to be
taken—that any season eug%t to be tats en with
a view of improving the state of instructioa
and the religious feeling and the moral condition of the
people of the country ; because I am satisfied, however,
such laws, if they had been proposed and carried, might
have subdued discontent for the moment, your only per-
manent security will be not only in the knowledge and
education of the people, but in their knowledge of their
religious duties, their moral obligations, and their fortu-
nate situ ado,' in Icing the people of this great and free • -
country.—(Tremendous cheering.) I do feel, Sir, that
in doing this, in attempting this. I have had more opposi-
tion
to encoun•er than if we had taken the other course
and proposed measures of severity and coercion. Ido
not mind that opposition. lam not to
,be-deterhed by the
taunts of the Ilan. Men.ber for Newe.ik,--(Great cheer-
ing)—who.has seat Ai his surprise that, after being defeated
oft former scheme', thould Ire attempting another p'an.
I cannot forget that in some plans we have been thwarted
—(Tremendsus cheeriog)—but, et the some time, I am
cheered by the coevistion that l hove brqA successful in
firmer years in striking off from the IYFFenters the ecgrad-
ing fetters of the Test and Corporation Acts. I am I
quite prepared for opposition against. plans of this descrip-
tion.—(Ctice:s ) - I am quite prepared, when I find these
measures opposed, to expect that they will be misunder-
stood and misrepresented, and that even the No Popery
cry should be raised up tmgainst them.—(Great cheering -)
But let not the lion. Member for Newark pride himself
en such victories—(Continued cheering)—for I must tell
him that I don't think he will succeed in imposing aeaia
those fetters that have been removed—(Cheers)—and I do
from my heart believe that upon father discussion the
great cause of education, not only to the members of the
Church of England, but to all the members of the com-
munity, will prosper and flourish, and we shall have the
happiness of seeing these degrading pictures of 1839 be-
come the pictures of past times, and the only wonder will
be that they were ever the true pictures of the state of -
England —(The Noble Lord sat down amidst tremendous
cheering, which Imted for several minutes.)
Sir R. PEEL then rose, and addressed the House
as follows : —Sir, I shall not be sorry to escape
.from the discussion of some of the more important
topics adverted to in this debate, not because I undervalue
their importance, but because I consider many of them too
important fur discussion at this late hour.—(Heer, hear.)
I will net undertake to defend every opinion advanced in
the course of this debate.—( Laughter.) I shall confine
myeelf rather to the consideration of the particular merits
of the proposition on which we are called upon to decide,
than 'consider whether the opinions cf my lion. Friend
the Member for Newark are speculative opinions. If,
however, I should enter into them at this time of the
night, I should only, be imitating the example of the Hon.
Gentleman opposite in deviating from the consideration
of that which is the practical question before the House—
whether, upon the whole, it is the best, that the motion
of my Noble Friend shall be acceded to for an address to
the Crown, to cencel the Order in Council appointing the
Committee repecting Education. Sir, I give my cordial
concurrence to that motion ; and it seems to me that her
Majesty's Ministers have b en rather anxious to shrink
from the consideration of its merits.—i(li lacohuidneloiweetp-srofereoemd
the Opposition. ) Sir, I object to the Government scheme
upon three or four distinct grounds, w
to state. Firs., that I object ht the deciding so important
a question as tile laying the foundation of National Edu-
cation by a single vote of this House.—( Hear, hear.)
Instances have been quoted in which sums were placed
under the control of the Government without obtaining
the sanction of the other House. But it does not follow
that because upon uncontested points this course has been
decided tip in, :hat the whole question of National Education
shall be settled by a vote of this House alone.—(Hear, hear.)
bewareare t
oe of
huntede nemt coount:
eI
of
sisti should,
owe-1,1;%-)
_t
f.i adviseh you
analogiesto
t
depend upon it the next innovation will be much larger.—
(Load cheers.) The Noble Lord (J. Russell) says, forsooth,
that this is a mere question of inspecting of schools. Why, the
original proposal at least was that " five of her Majesty's ser-
vants should be appointed to consider all matters affecting the
education of the people."—(Cheers.) If I had troposed that
in 18;35—what would the Dissenting bodies have said ?—:( Loud
cheers.) Would net their apprehensions have been provoked?
Would not their fears have been alarmed ? Should I not have
been called upon to respect their feelings?—(Cheers.) And is
it not ratutal that the Members of the Established
Church should feel a similar alarm at the appointment of
this Committee, which may be hereafter pressed upon them as
the admission of a principle, the carrying out of which they
must not oppose ; the laying of a foundation which necessarily
involves the superstructure.—( Cheers.) Sir, I object to this
Cnncomposed entirely of Members of the Exe-
cutive';ttee being
Government. Mar, hear.) It is not a Committee
of Council, it is a Committee of the Executive Government.
Now that Executive Government have other duties to pet form,
other interests to consult.—( Loud cheers.) They may feel it
their duty to make lace concessions for the purpose of keeping
their places—(Cheers)—not for any unworthy object—they
may think it their duty to retain their offices. Loud laughter
and cheers.) Observe, they do not constitute a body inde-•
pendent of party, independent of political considerations—
(Hear)—bn. exclusively of the Members of the Government,
who may feel it necessary, in order to maintain
nearer interests—in order to preserve themselves from dismissal
by this House—to make larger concessions—(Cheers)—they
may consider eduntion as a secondary point.—( Hear, hear.)
,hyl,leathrat
Si:e the very essence of the Constitution is jealousy of the Exe-
cutive; and I have a right—without personal imputations—to
whet have we lately seen? We have seen a Ministry return to
presume that pewee may be abused.—( Hear, bear.) fiSn
office after having declared that they had lost the confidencelv of
this House. —( Cheers. ) What's ytoourdodesfoence(
?Hear
a great necessity called upon
year it is an open. goes_—a.st
you
you to make the same
stater may net a great
necessity
(.f
the 'l3all-t ) Last,
question,
from -our abst t
ring. Now, why is that so? o 3 rac conviction
the merits of the question
sytealreitaite,tveasagoaoint ?stTt aokpeenthe case
00,
this
as _(Cries of " Hear,
y, bound to consi-
fn your
• of the enlarged and comprehensive interests of 'the
moors
eu Ary, but it is involvsd in yeur maintenance of power,—
heare)meet because the concestion cfnential
pendent upon part
deratiens of party interest in the Government, the body that
shall form its ranks furne-h the members of a Committee to
consider all matters affecting the education cf the people.—
(Cneers.) If that is de
( !dem.) What said the Hon. Member for Lambeth, as a re-
commendation cf this measure? 'Why, he said to her Majesty's
Government. by the proposal of this measure do not be alarmed.
You have done more to recommend yourselves to the Liberal
Members of this I-Inuee, arid to the Liberal constituency of this
yol.lecuve
. iit
country, than you have done by any other proposal
Made.—( Hear, bee: . ) Ite it so, but may 110 t the ex,iacn
Now,
of the measure be as necessary as the proposal. N