The Sun.
London, England, 1806-03-18 00:00:00

Mr. WHITSTIED KEENE reminded the House,
that acthe breaking-out of the War, when a strong
opinion of an attempt at Invasion on the part of the
Enemy prevailed, both the English and Irish Militia
had offered their services to Government. A Bill
had on a former occasion passed the House for em-
powering His Majesty to accept the services of the
English Militia in Ireland. They would willingly go
io Ireland rain.; and he . regretted that they were
not so employed. He thought that nothing could
cement the Union between the two Countiies.so well
as a 'reciprocity of the services of the Militia ; he
therefore strongly recommended- to His Majesty's
Ministers that, while the English Militia were em-
ployed in Ireland, the Irish Militia should be em-
ployed-in England. As an argument in favour of
this measure, he observed; that Ireland was po doubt
the obje& of that ,arclifiend Who was the great
enemy 'of this Country: He. knew well the state of
that Country. The North was poptalous, industrious,
and decidedly initnical to Bonaparte. They were
'not to be seduced by _his insidipus i)rotni'ses; but the
West apd:the South were very differently circum-
Staneed ; and it was not an A& of Parliament
'vhich could alter the prejucliCes and the habits of
the people, but such an intercourse and intermix;
Ore as he had pointed out. •It must be 'the work of
time. Re thought if the EngliSh Militia did mani-
fest'a disposition to reciprocity of service, the Irish
Militia would not skew more reluciance in coming
over here. He instanced the good etleas of that
.kind of intercourse now recommended by the present
state of the Sea Fencibles in Ireland, who were,
previous to the commencement of the War, a disor-
derly and disaffe&ed rabble,' ready to give informa-
tion and assistance to the EneMy- ; but, organized
and trained to the use of arms, under the inspe&ion
of Officers of the British Navy; form an etive, effi-
cient, and loyal force of ten thousand men, along a
certain extent of the Irish Coast. This force, the
Ron. Member trusted, from the increase of cent-
4nerce and navigation, the produaiveneSs of the soil,
.and the fertility of the people, wpgld.soon increase'
0 thirty thousand.,
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed to-morrow. • • •

D rose„ in consequence of his,
kiotice, to move for an Account of the application of
a sum of ?..0,0001: included in the Navy Estimates
of the last year. It was said to be for th.e.Corrimis-
• stoners for examining into the civil affairs of the
Navy ; but it was extraordinary that no account had
eveF been given of its application. The "Comtnis-
sioners of Naval Inquiry had been sitting three years,
and no reward had as yet been given to them, . tho'
they had done- the. most essential service to their
country. Upon this Parliamentary CommissiOn the
late Administration. had ,fotinded another 'COr4mis,
. and for this Commission had applied for the,
burn of 20;0001. It was proper, certainly, that they
who engaged in the Public Service.should be paid
for it, but then there was a decency to be obServed iu
the node of proceeding; .and here 'there ,were cir-
cumstances omitted, that ought to have been oh-
,seryed., It was always the custom on these occasions
to grant rewards to Commissioners after their Work
was done, while here. they had it before they had
well begun. ,He .did not mean to throw any blame
on these Commissioners; they might have done
their duty as well as-the Commissioners of Naval
Inquiry; all he said was, that. a proper detailed :ac-,
count of the application of this
,money ought to be
laid before the ,House. Their salaries, at for'
each, would, in the-'sjace if two.years,amotint only
to ia,oofil. and thus.so.ool.,remained entirely un-
accounted for, while .the., commissioners of Naval
4qUiry, in all their tournies to PortstnOnth, &c. had
expended only 50001. .He conclUded by moving
for .an account-of the application of 20,001. included
in the Estiniates of the Navy for the years 1805-6
stated pere to be for 'discharging the expences of the
Commissioners for Revising the Civil Affairs of the
'sl"avy, with the documentS'on which it was founded;
pod the Correspondence between the Cemmissionera
anti the Admiralty. .
. Lord- CA STLEREAdH did not rise to ob. Et je to
the Motion, but merely to advert.to an unfair reflec-
tion which the :HOU.. Gentleman mode, in stating
that this was contrary to the usual practice in cases. of
.Qornmissions.. He contended that there was a dif-
ference in this respe& between a COMmission ap-
pointed ley the Execntive GoVernmeut and one ap-
pointed by Parliament. In the for Mer .case it was
proper, and he believed it was the praEtice, to give
in an estimate for the expenCes of..such Commis-
sions. The estimate, be Stilted to be 'for two years,
;Rd 44 to the 50901 overplus, this would go to pay
,he salaries of the different Officers attached; to it.

Mr. WHITBREAD rather thought that this mode
of e,stinvites was not the usual practice.

. , . .
Mr. ljusK.lssoN atm Mr. BASTARD SRid -a few
vror4s or the same subjeet.

Mr. Vv ILBERFORCE observed; that in comparing
the difference of the expenditure of the two Com-
issions, ought to be considered that the Commis..
&loners of Naval Inquiry were to be rewarded by
rarliament hereafter.
Mr. WtimsREAD said, that the.cotnparison was
respeaing the 50001. surplus,,and what the Commis.- ,
sioners of Naval Inquiry had'already expended:
'Mr. WILBERFORcE explained.
Mr. STURGES 13OURNE-ObSerVed, that out of this
pouoi. the salaries of the Secretary, which was 8001.
and o the other Officers were to be paid.
IClr. WHlTBREADobserved, that the salary of Mr.
Thomsen, when Secretary, 'was only 5001. and how
the services of another came to be Worth' 8001. bet-
ter that) Mr. Thomson's were of 5001. he did not
)now.
The Motion was then agreed to.
Ar! B.i.sTA.Ro moved for an Acpount of the Ex,
,fences of the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry,
stating the items since their appointment, to the end,
of the year 1805.-01-demi. •
_ _

Mr. AUXANDER brought up the Report of the
committee of Supply, containing the Resolutions re-
speCting the Ordnance Estimates. Op the Motion
that these be read a second time,
General PA RLEI:OIV rose to say a few words on
different points connea-ted with this subjeet. Some
preliminary observations might be proper. When
the Secretary for the War Department rose the other
day, to give some notice respeeting his plati, pr sys-f
tem, or whatever he chose to call it, the buz of
pe4ation in the House was such, that he did not
hear distipEtly whether or not he meant to repeal thp
:Additional Force Bill. He could assure the House,
'that this 43i11, which had beta o ulluch ridicpled

i

by the Right Honourable Secretary Arid lib friends,
bad been exceedingly produEtive of late. ft had
produced three hundred and fifty men during the last
'weeks. Many looked to him with anxiety on this
point. Many, likewise, looked to him with anxiety on
account of the Volunteers, whom, in his speeches,
when on the Opposition side of the House, he had
so much ridiculed, and wondered how he had not
retracted what he then said, or provided some
substitute for this force, As' a military, man who
had served thirty Years, sometimes aClively ern-
, ployed, and be would have been employed oftener
had it not been for his violent attachment to some
Gentlemen- whom he had in his eye, he would say
, that the Right Hon. Secretary's ideas on war differed
from those of every author or every nraillical Officer.
A Gentleman (Mr. Sheridan) who had lately got
a naval cloak, but which- did not keep him warm
enough to enable him to come down to follow
up his notice respeCting.the Repeal of the Parish MI,
had once alluded to the horses in the state-carriage,
and how ill they were matched. They were, how-
ever, in a worse situation now, for there was. such
prancieg and kicking that it seemed necessary to stop
the machine altogether to prevent its being overturned.
-When he had once come from abroad, the Right Hon.
Gentleman had told him that the Enemy seemed al-
ways to be three weeks before hand, while we were
three weeks behind hand. Now- with respect to
the Ordtiance Estimates, they were the same as
those which, had been prepared
.by the late-1044,
The Honburable General then paid some compli,
ments to Lord Chatham, whom every one, he said,
'must respe& as the sou' of such a father, and the
brother of so .“ excellent a Statesman." The anion
of Trafalgar altered- the nature of the 'War. Ships.the
Enemy could have none, or if they built them, they
would be of no more use than the toys of Bond-
street, as they had no sailors. The attempt at in=
yasion must • therefore be made with the flotilla.
After the fete promised to the French Army in May,
they would come to the Coast infuriated against this
Country by the, desire of military glory and the
hopes of plunder; :sind it was our duty therefore
to guard against this sort of force. As to our-
selves, 'Woolwich was the only grand depot for ord-
nance preparations. This he thought improper, be-
. cause, in case. of invasion, our troops might be com-
pelled*to fight at a disadvantage in order to defend
Woolwich. There ought to be a depot in the centre
of the Country, that though Woolwich and London
should be taken, there might, still be a resource for
the Armies in the Notthern Counties He knew that
there was a small depot at'Weeden-Beck, in North-
amptonshire, but this was not sufficiently extensive.
was better, at • all events, as' Mr. Burke had said,
to be despised foe too much caution, than to be ruined
by being too Secure. -
Mr: CALCRAFT said, that the Honourable Ge-
neral had, only mentioned two_ or three things to
which it 'was necessary for him to allude. The Es-
timates he acknowledged to be nearly the sire as
those found in the Office, and the reason was, that'
the services for, which they- were called had advanced
so far that they could not be altered withont great
loss. With , regard to the Laboratory at Wool-
wich, they had found 12,0001. placed in the Esti-
mate for, this item,, but in fiat- it appeared that
eti,oool. were necessary, and they had adopted this
sum. -As to a central Depot, if the. Hon. General
had examined the Estimates, he. would have found
that the
_one at Wecden Beck was in, a state of great
forwardness.

. General T 4 I.t,L N
.explained:
Lord CAS'I'LEREAGH wished to know whether
it was the intention of,Government to follow up the
Plans of Defence for the. rest of the Coast, as had
been ;adopted by the late Administration with respe&
to Kent and Sussex ?—He thought it ought also to,
be .followed .up in Ireland ; and his late friend (Mr.
Pitt) had intended to • have this Session-, proposed a
Plan for the internal defence of that Kingdom. ' For
this purpose, and the defence of the Coast, he ad-
vised the Ministry to require a liberal•vote.He
-
had no obje&ion to the Estimates', and as to what had,
been said by his Hon. Friend, he agreed with him.that
it was a wise principle, to put- our means of defence
out of the reach of any one disaster.' The late
Board had this in view, 'and had done a great deal
in it, and .though Weeden Beck was not in a state
of ;lerfeicli on, it was in great forwardness. He
contended that it was'unjust to the Country to leave
the point as to the repeal of the Additional Force.A&
so long• in suspence. That Ad had shown lately ai
degree of vigour whit') had a little disturbed the
Right Honourable Secretary. He wished to know
whether it was intended to enforce -the law against
the Couuties-which had not done their duty. Many,
from an. expeaation that it would not be enforced,
would delay proceeding till they could not•pay them
with so'much advantage, and it would be contrary
to all justice -to allow them to escape. The State
Physicians were consulting together, so long that
some of. 'the patients -Must die, before they. could
agree about the prescription. _ _

Mr., WI-ND-11AM
observed, that• no declaration
had been made by ,him and his friends, because it
was not necessary; and it was remarkable that the
grounds bn which they were so often questioned
. contained an admission that things had been left in
a state so exceedingly bad as to call for immediate
amendment. This the Noble Lord had very pro-
.perly represented under the similitude of a patient.
But the late Physicians had brought their patients to
death's door, and now they were clamburous be-
cause they Were not immediately cured. The No.-
ble Lord, asked what they intended to do ?—lt was
indeed difficult to say at present, for where the case
of the patients were so desperate it Was, to be ma-
naged with delicacy. f He thanked the Noble Lord
for his most excellent advice—but as to his ques-
tions, he must decline saying any thing, not perhaps
because be was not prepared; but because there was
no occasion to answer. The Additional Force Bill,
however, was ridpart of his scheme.
Mr. CANNHvTG supported the arguments of Ge-
neral Tarleton and Lord Castlereagh ; and, in allu-
sion-to the "dedlarations: of The Secretary of State on
a former occasiOn'respecaing the inipetfAion of the
Military System of the Country at that time, ..x-
-pressed his astonishment, that -the Right Hon.'S'e-
cretary, who then thought a proper plan of _defence
a matter of so much facility as to be obvious almost
to every man, should now find so much difficulty,
and exhibit such palsied tardiness in producing-
any 1311!n. The HottSe• had been occUpi6d for four
years past by the complaints and inveaives of the
Right Jio x, Secretary -and his I.*4c,ipagainst Ziis

Majesty's late Ministers, and in itripresalng upon
the House 'and the Country the great hopes that
were to be formed upon a broad-bottomed 'Admi-
nistration, including all th& talents, char &er, re-
spectability, virtue, rank, and eloquence of the
Country. The obje& of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man and his Friends had been at length answered ;
they had got every thing their own way, and to the
extent of their wishes ; and yet, with all this con-
centration and conflagration of talents, six we..•ks
were now elapsed, without their being able to pro-
pose to the House any thing like a 'Military System
to please themselves, notwithstanding the prompti-
tude and facility which the Right Hon. Gentleman--
had so often professed. According to the crew
system of the present Administration, he understood
it to be a principle, that the person at the head of
each department was to be solely responsible for
the trarrsaelions in his department ; but whatever
degree of confidence he might be disposed to attach
'to the general responsibility of the present Admi-
nistration, taken as a whole, he could nbt confide
in them individually as their parts were' cast, par-
ticularly in the War Department; for he had no
hesitation in saying for himself, and he
:believed he
spoke the opinion of ninety-nine in a hundred
throughout the Country, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, whatever might be his fitness for other de-
partments, ought not to be looked to as a complete
War Minister. There were many other instances
to which he might apply similar objeaions ; but,
upon the whole, his confidence was rather direCted
to the great and superintending spirit'which was
supposed to have the chief dire6tion and manage-
ment, Mr. Canning then made some pointed al-
lusions to certain declarations on former occasions,
which he attributed to Mr. Windham one of
which was, that he (Mr. Windham) had sat, nine
years in a Cabinet with which he differed upon al-
most
every material point in discussion ; and, there-
fore,
he could attach no confidence to a Minister
who could make such a declaration. If he really
had any plan to bring forward for military defence,
with the apizobation of his colleagues, he, was in-
dined to suppose it their's, and not his own.
Mr. WINDHAM explained, id totally denied
the whole of'the declarations attributed to him. The
opinions in which he differed from certain Members
of that Cabinet he had expressed before-he became a
Member of it. He was guarded against the stra-
tagems of the Hon. Gentleman to lead biro into a
disclosure of any part of his plan until the whole
should be submitted to the House. Any delay or ,
difficulty on the point was entirely_owing to the for-
mer Administration.

Mr. WHI7TREAD said, that the Hon. Gentle-
man over the way seemed to have altered his ,senti-
ments of late.. When he intimated in this House
that a change had taken place in a particular branch
of the late Ministry, and hinted that it 'was at his
request, he appeared. to suppose that. the proper
choice of persons to particular offices wag a very
material consideration, butnovv he.admired the pre-
sent. Administration on the whole, though he
thought some of the particular places improperly
filled. He also alluded to declarations which %sere
.never made; and as t,o the measures of the late Ad-
ministration, though many of them were wrong' in'
principle, yet it might be dangerous to alter them
all at once. The Hon. Gentleman had,spoken very
feelingly about the circumstances under which the
present Ministers fOrmerly contended against delay,
which was all very well, had he not, in a very in-
decorous manner, intimated that they, had no feel,
ing at all. As to the repeal of the Additional Force
At% he defended the conduct of the Treasurer .of
the Navy, who had now, very properly, left the
matter in the proper hands. The Parish Bill, he
said, had never been carried into execution, nor was
it in execution at this day, for all the men under it,
were raised by Crimps and Recruiting Officers, and
were accepted in different cases though under the
proper size. The Hon. Gentleman had said that
the AEI would be palsied by suspence. It was;ex-,
traordinary that by his own confession it was more
vigorous in 'this paralytic state than ever it was be-
fore: The .Hon. gentleman had got into a train of
warm argument on his Right Hon. Friend's refusing
to answer; but he was not to be :taken in by this,
nor by the more insidious calmness of the Noble
Lord. He was not to bring forward a crude schenie
to retain all the former measures, and add to them
some foolish, ill-considered chimerical plan of his
own, to cajole the people and make them think that
a great change had actually taken plate. The zeal
of the Volunteers, he contended, had not abated ;
as to the penalties,, he thought it hard that when'
the Parishes could neither find men nor money,
they should be attacked by those who had placed
them in this situation.

Mr. FOX Said, it was necessary for him, in con,
sequence of the general observations made by the
Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, on the other
side, to say a few words. That. Right Hon. Gentle-
man had stated, that the present Ministry comprised
all the talent in the
,Country; and he lad even
stared it in such a manner as might lead to a sup-
position ttret they had so'represented themselves.
He should.be happy that the Right Hon. Gentle-,
man would state on what occasion he had beard
them so' represent themselves. It was impossible
that they could have said so, when they saw the
the Right Hon. Gentleman 'on the other side of the
House. It would be ridiculous. in any person to
sinuate that Ministry compriseddall the talent of the
Country, when he Right Hon. Gentleman was out
of office. Not only the Right Hon. Gentleman,
but his Colleagues on the same bench with him,
had made such a representation impossible, particu-
larly by the display of talent which they had already
made in Opposition. This declaration he (Mr.
Fox) made for. himself'and his Colleagues. It was
possible some of the friends of the present
try, thinking too highly of their merits, might, from
prejudice or partiality, have so described them, but
he thought it was hardly for the friends of a Right
Hon. Gentleman, lately deceased, to be the first to
object to that species of compliment. He had never,
so far as that Right Hon. Gentleman was concern-
ed, observed the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite an
enemy to panegyric • let him look to what he him-
self. had said of his fate Right Hon. Friend, and he
would not think the partiality of friends so unwar-
rantable. With respea to his Right Eton. Friend
near filth (Mr. Windham), the Right Hon, -Gentle-
man had said that he had, no opinion of
,him, 'nor.
.any confidence in him as a War' Minister, and that
99 out of 100 were of anas,e wiL4 44:1

this sribjeet. This opinion .he immediately took nit
granted, anti goes on—not to propose to turn him
out---,-but to say, i` Before you have fully matured
your plan, explain to sne the nature of it." Was it,
he would ask, a fair inference of want of confidence,
to require of his Right Hon. Friend, to tell theta.
the nature of his plan out of time ? • His Right
Hon. Friend admitted lie was not completely ready.
lii that case he presumed to think it extremely hat
that Gentlemen opposite should say, answer us' on
a point on which yon confess you are not ready. It
was well known that it was always the wish of the
Right Hon. Gentleman lately deceased to endea-
vour. to get the friends with whom he (Mr. Fax)
acted to make a part of his (Mr. Pitt's) Ministry,
and that such endeavours had been used with Ins
Right Hon. Friend, Mr. Windham, after hex
made the Speeches to which the Right Hon. .Gen.
tleman ppposite alluded, It might, indeed, be said,
that it was not in theicontemplation of Mr, Pitt to
give his Right Hon. Friend tl* War n
but to have placed him in some situation. If
he (11fr. Fox), however,* Understood the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, no change, of place could have
satisfied the Right Hon. Gentleman, or removed
his objections to his Right Hon. Friend holding any
....opartroent,
situation. He would have said, e` It is not to the
head of the particular department that I give my.
Confidence, but 'to the whole of the Ministry." The
Right Hon. Gentleman talked of delay. It was not
till the 7th of Feb: that his Rt: Hon. Friend's Writ
was moved. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt),
to whom he 'was convinced the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite would not willingly impute delay,.or
any other bad quality, did not for founweeks after
his return to power bring in ,his Additional Force
A&. There the time which intervened was nearly
as long. as in the present instance. There too a
single A& only waste be introduced. Here there
was a new system to be founded. There, however,
no bbjedion of delay was started, neither were any
premature ingeiries made into the nature of the plan:
which he intencled,to adopt; If there had been any--
such, how awkwardly must that Right Hon. Gen-
tleman have found himself situated in declaring
it to be-built on a system such as he himself had
been decrying within the last three weeks. The-
Right Hon. Secretary declared, that he could net.
figure any reason for putting any question like, the,
present, but a with to embarrass. What good mo-
tive' could. the persisting in it proceed from, when
his Right Hon. Friend --had stated that he was not ,
quite ready to bring forward his measure If he
was guilty of delay, why not bring forward against .
him a charge to that effed; and let his (=lna be
thesubjea of Parliameritary inquiry ? But what ad-
vantage could proceed from a premature declaration,
similar to that now required ? From what motive
but a bad one could- the wish to procure such a de-
claration-proceed ? .He should only put it to the
candour of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself : If, be-
fore the,Planof the military arrangements now in agi-
tation had been ready to be laid before the House, his
Right Hon. Friend had at once moved for the Re-
peal of the Additional Force Rill, while eething
-was ready to substitute in its stead, what would the
Right Hon. Gentleman have said ? Would he net
have said-r Here, this is your haste to shew your
triumph over the Gentleman who is now no more.
Could you not have waited with patience, ,atrel al-
lowed the A& to take its course till you were ready
with a •substitute 1 He would appeal to the Right
Hon. Gentleman- if that would n-at have been hit'
condud f and, if his Right Hon. Friend now said
that this Bill formed- no part pf his Plan, did it not
follow that this was not the time to investigate or..
discess its merits ?
Mr. CANNING explaißed, deelar3lll that his con -%
du& would have been sea as Mr: Fox supposed, 44
the event figured by him.
Mr. PERCEVAL thought that the different to.
pics which had been discussed to-night would come
more properly before the House on a future oeea..
sion. He thought, however, that it was hardily
term& in the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Poi) to say that it was impossible the question.coulgt
have been put from a good motive, more particular.
ly as his Noble Friend did not press his question,
concerning the Plan which the Right Hon. Secretary
(Mr. Windham) had in contemplation, but limited
it as to the penalties. This, he thought, was, a reason,
- able and proper 'question, as, , while it was suf.-
fered to remain. ih suspende, whether they were to
he levied or not, it acted with a double disadvan..
tage.: He expreSsed his happiness to- understand
frorn"the last Speaker on the other side (Mr. t"ox) a
thing which he 'had not formerly understood, any
which, he himself did not exped, that a comprehen,
sive Plan was ativally formed. If so he thought
Monday next not an unreasonable time for bringing
forward so great a measure:
Mr. Fox expleined._ _

Dr LAWRENCE agreed with hip Learned
Friend 'opp.psite (Mr. Perceval) as to this not being
the very best moment for agitating the points which
had been introduced. ner was sorry to obseive,
however, that Gentlemen cud the other side had just
begun to perceive,so, when it w4s too late for then -
to profit by the observa.Oon.
The Report Was then brought up 4n4 ti4e nesOU-
tiOns were agreed to. _