The Sun.
London, England, 1801-12-08 00:00:00

RETAIL. TRADE IN IRELAND

Mr. CORRY presented a Petition from the ile-
tail Traders of the Borough of Newry, complaining
of the existence: of a heavy duty of 6 per cent.,
upon goods imported there, which in many in-
stances amounted nearly to 'a Prohibition, and pray-
ing relief. Mr. CORRY said,'that he should mere-
ly now move, Thai the Petition should, lie on the
Table, with *a view to call the attention of the
House to the subjed at a future period.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
in not opposing the'MotiOn, he did riot wish it to
be understood that. he assented to the prayer of the
Petition, as he had not'had an opportunity of eiz-
amining the sul>je6l. .

Mr. CORRY said, he had omitted to state what
he wished to be understood, that by presenting the,
Petition, he did not pledge himself eithei on the
one side or the other.

The Petition was ordered to lie on the Table.
BREAD.
Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, that as upon fur-
ther consideration, the two first Clauses of the Bill
before the I-louse relative to the Assize of Bread,
were not adequate to.the object proposed, it was his
intention to move for the re-commitment of the
Bill; in order that those ClauSes might be with-
drawn and other Clauses added instead, and as
fOrther 'consideration appeared necessary 'upon so
'important a i.irbjea,.he wished the Bill to be print.:
ei after it had passed the Cornmittee, and that it
night be postponed till after the Rec...
The Order,of the Day for the further considera-
tion of the Bread Bill being then read, "
•
Mr. Alderman CURTIS moved, that it should be
IT—committed.'

'Mr. DENT Wished it to go through the Cum.
mittee before the Recess.

-Mr. flider.man, CURTIS said,, that was his ob-
jea, and that the sbouid then be further time for
its consideration, as there Was vot sufficient.tirne
for that parpose before. the Recss.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee,
Mr. SHAW LE EYRE in the Chair.

Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, he wished to with-
draw the two first Clauses relative'to the Returns
of the Corn, Market, in order that the Average
might nor-be taken from the Prices of the Week
from Monday to Saturday, but that the ensuing
Monday might also be included. • .

.`-Sir RICHARD .CARR GLYN said a ' feW
words, which we did not distinaly hear.
Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, it was.gxpeciient
that the Magistrates should have an option to take
the Average either from the Prices of the Week from
Monday to Saturday, or from those Prices including
the following Monday, a considerably greater num-
ber of Sales taking place on the Monday than on any
other day of the week. The present Bill, he said;
required considerable pains to render it adequate to
the object, and even then, neither it, or any other
Bill upon the subjea, could be. made perfea, The
Millers and Bakers did not care how high the price
of Wheat was, having no inducement to
.keep it
down. The present
.Bill was not held out as a per.:
fea Measure, but 'merely as an experiment.
Mr. FULLER said, why not abolish the Assize
altogether ? He hoped no additional task would be
imposed upon Magistrates.; their labours were al-
ready too great,
,and he thought it unjust that Any
fresh burthens should be imposed upon them. He
thought some reward ought .to be conferred upon
those who had been fora long time aailie in the ser...
vice of the Public.

Phe.o IIANCEL LOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
no man more than himself revered the condud of
Magistrates, but he deprecated the idea of Reward,
thrown out by the Hon. Gentleman. • Their con-
dud ,was didated by motives of public spirit ; they'
used every exertion to serve their Country, and
were rewarded by the approbation of, their con..'
science he was sure this was the only reward they
looked for or expefted. With respeft to the
he should, make a very few observations. He had
considered the subjeft much, and he wasxlearly of
opinion the present Bill was only an expedient -to
get rid of a greater , evil,: by substituting a
less. The Aft of GEORGE was less excep-
tionable than those now . proposed to. be repealed.
The latter gad.been found by experience to be in-
jurious, and he was sure every Gentleman ought to
pause before-he afted with a legislative hand upon
subjefts like the present. The great objet ,which
he thought -.ought to be considered was, ,that
getting rid of the Assize. The law of the Assize
had obtained for a great number of years, but he
must say, it was nothing less than a maximum
upon bread. A maximum was founded in impolicy
and,iniustice and was the sure forerunner of fa-
mine when carried to its utmost extent. With re..
sped to Bread, it was true a, maximum was not
aftually fixed by the Legislature, but it was left to
the discretion of Magistrates. To this, however,
he equally objeded, as it destroyed all inducement
to keep down the price of Grain and Flour. Far_
mers were induced to ask prices unwarrantably and
extravagantly high for their Grain : Mealmen hay.
ing no interest to keep down the price of Grain,
were induced to ask' unreasonable prices for their
Meal, each knowing, that whatever might be the,
price, the average and the Assize WAS set accord-
ingly. In this case how did the Assize operate ?
it operated eventually upon the Baker with the' most
grinding severity : his profit was reduced as low as
possible ,by the Magistrate, for the sake of the
Public, ,and he was driven either to adulterate his
Bread, or to endeavour to live upon a profit scarcely
sufficient for his subsistence. Still worse for the
Baker was a time of scarcity ; it was then the pres-
sure of the times operated most upon the mind of
the Magistrate—it was then he decreased the pro-
fit of the Baker. Public distress made that jus-
tice which was due to the Baker a secondary con-
sideration; and those fair profits, which were due
to the-latter were unjustly diminished. The more
he considered the subject, the more he was sur-
prized such a system
,had continued so long. He
knew that in the year 17.7 i doubts had been en-
tertained by many thinking men of the. propriety
of continuing the. Assize ; it was, 'however, then
supported on the ground of its being a protedion
to the Bakers. He admitted it was a subjeft which'
deserved the most serious consideration, involving,
as it did, great public, as well as private interests.
He was no Party to the Popular cry, nor would he .
ever consent to join in holding out men to general
obloquy against whom nothing specific was alledg':,
ed or proved; It ought,'however, to be the object
of the Law to give room for a fair and open com-
petition, and that Farmers and Mealmen should
not be induced to ask an-unreasonable price. He
did not mean to go so much at length into the sub.
jeft ; he .thought it however advisable that more
'time should be allowed for the consideration of the
Bill. He believed that Monopoly and Combination
had not had nearly so much effea in raising the
markets, as crude and undigested projeds. 'There
were many also whose interests were involved, and
who would think themselves hardly dealt by if they
had not an opportunity Of stating their opinions.
He hoped, after the Recess the subjeft would be
thoroughly considered.
,Mr.- FULLER explained.

Mr. COURTENAY agreed in opinion with the
Right Hon. Gentleman, that further time ought to
be allowed for the consideration' of this subjea.—
He was confident, he said, the price of Bread would
fall, if the proposed measures were adopted. He
thought for the same reason for which this was
postponed, further, time ought also to be given for
the consideration -of the Bill relative to the Dis_
tille ries.

Mr. HAWKINS PROWNE perfealy agreed
with the Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER). It blid ' been suggested to
him, that if the Assize was abAl:ilied there should
still he an Assize with respeft to weight and
quality.
Mr. FULLER and the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-
CHEQUER severally explained. ' • •
yomvsioN likewise agreed with the

CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. ' The Hon.
Gentleman who brought in the Bill, had, he said,
mentioned Monopoly and ,CombinatiOn, but the
CornMittee who had closely and laboriously investi-
gated the subjed,, could fiTid no proof whatever of
any effet resulting from Monopoly or Combination,
injurious to the Public.

The SECRETARY at WAR said, as it fell to
his.lot be in the Cbair of that Committee, he felt
it his duty to say, that the Committee did discover
abuses in the State Of the Corn Market, which re-
quired the interference of that House. • He hoped
measures would be taken after the ,1-3.ece,ss; in pur-
.suance of the Report of the Committee, to enlarge
the Corp.Matket, -and to prevent the Fatiors from
dealing their Own account. He would fairly
state, however; that lie thought all the measures
taken by that House to alleviate the late'Scarcity,
had only tended .to aggravate the-evil, with the
exception of the magnificent Bounty given upon the
Importation of Grain. But he considered the Assize
of Bread as an evil, and .he hoped •to- live la see the
day when it, would be entirely abolished; '`There
were, however, -many circumstances to .be consider_
ed, and many .pre.cautionS to be takeni amongst
the most prominent of which was the ensuring a real
Competition amongst•the Millers and Bakers. This,
was more 'than • ever • necessary, when it was con-
sidered that the Trade of the Millers was-in few
hands, and the Bakers, in, a great measure, their
Servants. If Some precautions were not taken to
ensure this competition, the abolition of the Assize
might only tend to aggravate the evil. .-Rethought
it would be found expedient to allow any_ persons
whatever to make-and sell Bread, ,

Mr. JONHSTON and the S.ECRETARY at WAR
severally explained.

Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, he had not at-
tempted to. raise .any unnecesiary• cry against-, Mo-
nopoly and Combination, but be bad broadly, stated,
that every :body was interested in raising the
Market, and no one was interested in keeping it
down; This .was what induced . him ._to_come for-
ward with the Measure now :before -.the House.—,
The Corn trade was in few hands, ancriCwasin the
power of six or seven persons to raise,. or depress it
at their pleasure. It was against this the present
Measure was direeted. He wanted to create a Com.
petition, which should conduce to the benefit of the
Public, by lowering the Price of the Commodity.
Sir WILLIAM PULTENEY said, no subjeft
could:be' more iinportant than the present. The
Hon. Gentletpan (Mr. Alderman CURTIS) had
spoke of .making a competition ; it was impossible,
however, to raise a competition without sufficient
capitals. If the Assize was abolished all at once,
the trade being at present in few hands, and there
not being sufficient capital to create a competition,
it would be in the power of those persons
.'thus
monopolizing the trade, to bring dis-tress and fa.
mine into the Capital, and the Assize must of neces-
sity, be.almost immediately re-established, and then
would he confirmed for ever. He thqught it would
be by far the berter way to enaCt that the Assize
should be abolished -at a certain fixed period, in
order that in the mean time capitals might he pre7
pared to ensure that competition which was 'the
objed of the present measure. If competition was
once- Tartly Cata6llshccr—/t .laarst-vpc-late av/cri
whether grain was dear or cheap. ,If it was to be
declared now that the Assize should he abolished
some time next year, there Would then be ample
time for persons to prepare capitals to engage in a
comp,etition, which would thus be established, in_
dependent of the influence of those who at present
controled the market.

Sir R. C. GLYN said, lie shiOuld'be glad to see
the Assize upon Bread taken away, because it would
give room for fair and open Competition.. With
respect to the Bill before the House, it ought only
to be adopted as an experiment, becanse he thought
it below the dignity of i?iirliament 'to recur back to
the Act of GEO. 11. which was allowed to be very
imPerfea,' and which was stated in the Preamble to
Mr. Alderman Skinner's MI, to have been prof
dative of many inconveniencies.
Mr. DENT expressed his hope that this business
would not be decided upon without the fullest in-
vestigatlorr. The plan of Competition, if it could
be carried into full effcl, would, he had no doubt,
be produetive of good ; but he doubted whether it
was practicable. The plan which appeared to him
the best calculated to remedy the present evil, was
to establish ,Mills in every Parish, arid to have a
Miller employed by the Parish. It had been said,
that prejudices ,had gone forth about. Monopoly and
Combination, &c. for which there was no founda.
tion ; but he was strongly inclined to believe, that
whatever obloquy had fallen upon a certain class of
men, they had drawn it upon themselves by their
own conduct. It was wrong, perhaps, to give way
to prejudices against any set of men, but that great
dishonesty was practised there could riot be the
smallest doubt. At all events, it was a most se-
yious consideration (as had been stated by the won.
thy Alderman) that the food of the Capital, as far
as related to Bread, was in the hands of six or seven
men. Whatever determination the• House came to
upon this momentous subject, it should only be after
the most mature deliberation, and he was
.sure that
the Public bad the most implicit confidence in the ,
wisdom of that House.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL congratulated the
House that this important subjeft was now likely to'
be maturely investigated, and whatever the deter-
mination of the House might be, he hoped it would
he founded upon a liberal and an enlarged view of
the subjea, and upon evidence obtained from all
quarters, without prejudice against any particular
set of men. He hoped that no unfounded jealousies-
would be entertained against Millers and Mealmen,
and that the House would not shut their ears against
them ; hut above all, he trusted that the House
would not indulge a hope that they could by any,
new experiments get rid of the evil of which they'
now 'complained ; because he was convinced, that
any attempt of the House to cure this inconvenience
would only tend to increase it. It was in this view
that he considered the plan of the Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last, for establishing as -many Mills as
there were Parishes in the Country, and for multi-
plying Millers in the same proportion. He was
sure when the House, and even the Hon. Gentleman
himself, considered this plan maturely, the imprac-
ticability of it would be manifest. An Hon. Baronet
•.

Sveirryrpjr.olP)eurLltoßNt:kir-e)c.,..
opinion that it could only be done after a ve:u 16';
ast,e,eari;ectihto think
Assize; i t woule
notice. He really differed from the Hon,liiir°l',..l '
upon that subject. • The Hon. Baronet founded l',, ,
opiniono ft
ile Trade, opon
btletiiisig,
,groundin s
o t.e--;tlia f
hands,i n theinl
ni.3)erbdetilsaltnts4t:s.sl:'
petition was not to be expeded; bat the abolit
of the --Assize -would -nor --affis Et- the Meal inea '
Millers, one way or the other,a.they would, lia'
no more power after the abolition of the Assizet
augment the price of Flour than they hive at r
sent ;. 'the Tilly person upon whom the Assize oe,
.rated was she Baker: • Therefore he did 'approve`:
aot lnfi
de
remedying
of abolishing;
meendycionnigphtie tiporn thee.s
e present
evil,Assize,
by a s
introducingthe o nlyli:
~i:
The way to produce Cod
petition in .a Trade was, to have as 'few' restraio'
as possible. upon it : at present, such were the 01
straints thrown upon the Baker, that it prevents"
• people with capitals. from entering into or conril
ing in it. The prejudices which had been exeit
against Mealmen and Millers, would tend to .Pe'
petuare the very evil which was complained of, b,;
cause men of capital would not like to embark rbg.'t
capital in a• trade which subjeded them to so iliu,,,,C'
• obloquy, Competition would make a Baker a 017,
:important charader ; for' at 'present' Bakers wi,e:i;
'considered-as an inferior order of tradesmen. ;11
-Man With a capital went into that 'business, ,a,'„!
very few rxmained in' it after they "" actlui;,;'
a capital ; but if -this branch or- nusiness was
free and unshackled, like any other, he sass, P;
reason why the Baker should not be a; reSpett,P;
a character as, the Brewer. His great,kar uponp
subjed 'was, that if the Assize should be ab6li
and that a season of Scarcity should arrive, the o'4
ness of Parliament would hardly be able to rep'
the clamours of the People without doors, VS..,
would call upon Parliament for their interpositit; '
when they folind the bread getting to an exorbirat•
price. • There was, perhaps, some danger to be a?,
prehended, that principles might he carried to FG;
great an extent ; Bread was riot like other artielt
upon which you cixild. 'calculate an average, ;(ti
which must in time find its own level : this .1',,a.,
not the case, with . an, article which was the dliq
food of man, and which mist 'be had. day. by dl.:.
therefore, 'perhaps even this plan of abolishing i'w
Assize .was more difficult than it at first appeateo!
but he begged again to repeat his hope, that 1-'l'"'i
this-most-important subject the House would Pq
come to any hasty decision.
, . .
-.I
Sir W. PULTENEY said; he perfelly concur!'
, , ~..1.
in the opinion that great deliberation was zecessl
upon this subject, because if Parliament deterinin ,
to abolish the Assize, it ought to be wi'..l) a'.dete;l
mination, not to recede. In such a case he 1101'4
Parliament would follow she example' of il''',
ancestors in the reign of King WiLLIANI, V'ise,'''
having. passed an Ad-for giving Bounties on l'i
Exportation of Corn, would not recede frora 111',
'principle, though they were much 'importuned
consequencej'
three or four scarce seasonswhi
followed. oA'Competition could only be cteateAl
by making one among the persons now engag
in. the trade, or by introducing new perso":s
ride He did_not think, there
.I,:c
any isro ability ot a Competartam—rwmplaw 1,,
People now: .engaged in the Trade : tilt tomit-,
tition he looked for, was. from persons not aof
engaged in the Trade, and who, if time wete Oil
1:J0,41d-take their measures for that purpose, thou!:
they could not do it at *present,'because, in fat, rg7,4;
greater part of those now engaged in the Tri'o
were tinder the direttion of the Millers, and A
they would continue while the Assize upon Brerio
continued; for no man of Capital would engage of
a Trade, where the Magistrates had the power
fixing the price of his Commodity.
'I)
Mr. FULLED said, that after the Scarcity
1750, the Price of Wheat did not regain its gem
for two Harvests ; and therefore, he proposed, rii
the Assize should cease after the next Harvest.
br
Mr. FRANKL AND said, he had been in cici„t're
whether it would be better that the BilLriow hel,°o
the House should be withdrawn, and a new Phe
brought in after full deliberation, or whether i'lj
present Bill should go through the Committee
,',,,
be printed, and then lie over for future considetbe
tion. He confessed he was not an advocate far tri
present Bill, because it would throw the CooPtii,
back upon the Statute of GEO. 11. the inconve
ence of which was obvious. Every Clentlo)o4
seemed to concur in thinking, that the only Ibfl
necessary to lower the Price of Bread was Cols
tition ; but it was singular enough that when by
very principle of Competition was afted upolbi to
that class of men who had so often been alludeE.eJ
in the course of the debate, it was made the 50bi0,35
of accusation against them. He confessed be
De,
not quite so sure as some Gentlemen seemed' r,..9 to,
that Competition must be necessarily good. L'cio,
petition implied Contest, 'and Contest might, /
volve and excite all the bad passions of mankilw,e cf,
Competition appeared to him, generally speakrt.lT,
as good in things in which Competition could °o
ly take place. There was Competition in the CoL'ci
Market ; 'but when the article was manufajure k
into Bread, it was thought by our ancestors 064,4
fit subjeft for Competition. By the Law of tP„,
Land, a poor man might now go to a Bakers
and insist upon a loaf upon paying the price ;$11,4
by Law—But if the Assize was taken off, then
tot
more urgent the want of the customer was,
more the seller had a right, upon the principleoe
Competition, to raise the price of his goods. jot
threw out those observations for the considcrol,o
of the House, to shew that even this favourite no
of Competition was not without objeftions, alitl,oo,
shew the necessity of
that
with cautl`l,,oo
e no
fsußppreoasde,d
11. but there was a Statute almost as eallJ,
tlltlehAadssibzee
Magna Charta, he meant the Statute of FIES'
ssft
was
sat
ththeesfitarstutteStoaftuGtetoi :0255
There was also a Statute in the reign of Q. iki ors'
and at last the whole System was digested 0,7wil
corporated into the Aft of GEO. 11. He vel,oo'
concurred with the CHANCELLOR of the .r.,?‘ 0
QUER., that this was a subjeft which ought t°,ol,
proceeded in with caution arid appreheoslo!);o,)
he hoped, chit- the most mature consideration w
,
be bestow_ed upornit. Idatariati°('
Mt. COU RTE WAY said a few-woruA s An,e- A

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