The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-20 00:00:00

required by the Hon. Member for the Univel sity of to a part of the return for which the Hon. Member
Dublin should be given. He contended that the car- had moved, because he doubted whether the Board were
dinal principle had been departed from in every instance in possession of the materials, and also because it ap-
-for instance, Mr. Carlisle, the Presbyterian Minister peered to militate against the principle on which the
for Ulster, allowed the Bible to be introduced instead system was founded. However as the whole point at
of the Scripture Lessons, whilst throughout Leinster, issue seemed to turn on this precise particular, and as
Munster, and Connaught, Roman Catholic Books the ground had been in some degree cut from under him
and Catechisms were read during the hours of in- by the partial returns before the House, he could not
struction.—(Cries of " Hrar, hear.") In Ulster and resist the motion.
Leinster the grants had been large, whereas in Munster The motion was then agreed to.
and Connaugt, where national schools ought to have AFFAIRS OF MEXICO.
been founded with the greatest assiduity, they had been Lord SAND ON presented a petition from the mer-
small. In Ulster 10,0001. had been granted, in Leinster chants of Liverpool on the subject which he was about
12,0001. ;in Munster, where the population was equally to bring under the consideration of the House.
large, 7,0001., and in Connaught 5,0001. If the House Mr. GROTE presented a petition on the same sub-
looked to the state of the various schools this would ject, signed by 300 merchants of the City of London.
appear still more striking, as it would be found that Lord SANDON then rose to move for copies of
1561., for instance, had been granted to a school con- any memorials addressed to her Majesty's Secretary of
sisting of 107 scholars, and in another instance, where State for Foreign Affairs, by British merchants trading
the school consisted of more than 100 scholars, the with Mexico and Buenos Ayres, praying his interfe-
grant was 161. There had thus been an inequality in renee to pretect British commerce against the effect of
the grossest manner of the distribution of the grant. blockades established in the ports of these countries by
Another point to be observed was, that the Commis- the Government of France ; together with the corres-
sioners, who ought to have retained a hold over the pondence with the said merchants arising therefrom. Also
school-houses, had abandoned that hold by vesting the copies of any communications with the French Govern-
school-houses in trustees. It was likewise of the utmost meat, founded on the said memorials. Amount of
importance that good schoolmasters should have been British force present in the Bay of Vera Cruz, at the
got for those schools, but instead of that the heads of time of the taking of the Castle of San Juan d'Ulloa, by
the old schools had been transferred into these Na- the French squadron under Admiral Baudin, and at
tional Schools, and the masters were anything but the taking of Vera Cruz by the same squadron. He
fit and competent men.—( Hear, hear.) One was an old felt some embarrassment in putting himself forward on
smuggler, another was a man who had taken part in the the present occasion, on account of the magnitude
Rebellion of 1798, and who now spent his evenings in of the question at issue, and the amount of interests in-
reading the most violent parts of the most radical por- volved in it.—(Hear.) He felt, however, imperatively
tion of the Press to the villagers. Another was a man called on to bring the matter before the House. In
who had been dismissed from the Coast Guard service. doing so he must disclaim any feeling of hostility to-
-(Hear, hear.) Another a man who was sentenced wards that groat country on whose proceedings he was
to seven years' transportation, and that was only a sam- about to remark, in any other way than as they were
ple of the masters of these schools. The inspectors directly at variance with the interests of this country,
were men of exactly the same stamp. For instance, and with the interests of all other nations interested in
there was Dr. Finn, a man who was in the habit of commerce. Before going into detail it might be neces-
taking the Chair in the most violent party meetings sary, in some degree, to allude to the proceedings at
held in Ireland, and from which chair he walked into Buenos Ayres and Mexico, which preceded the block-
an inspectorship. ade. It appeared that for a long time France had en-
Lord MORPETH said Dr. Finn had been dis- tertained a great desire to obtain considerable influence
charged two years ago. there. Evidence of this desire existed, not only in the
Mr. COLQUHOUN did not consider that State Papers of the Foreign Office in 1820 and 1821,
much altered the case, because if such men were ap- but also in the negotiations on this subject made by M
pointed, and there were twenty-four inspectors, what Chateaubriand. In 1821 intrigues were in progress to
confidence could the House have in such inspectors ? establish a Bourbon Prince on the throne of the re-
The lion. Member had done his duty in bringing volted provinces of Spain. The avowed objects of
this question before the House. And when it was France were the protection of some of her own sub-
clear there had been such extraordinary irregularities— jects who had settled in the territory of Buenos Ayres
such misapplication of funds—and such improper from being called upon to serve in the militia. The
selection of masters and inspectors, as he had shown possession of a right of the retail trade—an indemnity for
there had been, the House ought to be careful the injuries which some individuals had suffered, but
how it bestowed 50,0004 for such schoolmasters and greater than all these was the imposition upon the
inspectors, and above all they ought to learn from this State of Buenos Ayres of a Treaty of Commerce,
to be cautious how they introduced into England such similar to that enjoyed by Great Britain. With regard
a scourge.—(Cheers.) to the pretensions of France to protect her own sub-
Mr. VERNON SMITH wished to ask one ques- jects from being enlisted in the militia, thought that
tion in reference to the several statements brought for- was a privilege very desirous for foreigners to enjoy,
ward by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, the absence of it was not a justifiable cause of war for
which was, were they facts which had occurred pre- any country. With regard to the cases of individual
vious to the investigation which had taken place in 1837 injury, they appeared to him to be exceedingly trifling.
or subsequently ? If they occurred preceding that in- But passing over these, and coining to the question of
vestigation it was the duty of the Hon. Member to have the treaty of commerce, he believed he was justified in
brought them forward so that they might have been the saying that no nation had a right to impose upon
subject of investigation. If they were facts that had anothr a treaty of commerce, and in case of refusal
occurred subsequently he ought to have referred them to to make it the cause of war.—( Hear, hear, hear).
the Board ; and if the Board had refused to investigate It appeared that a good deal of negociation had
them then he ought to have brought them before the taken place on the subject of the treaty in question, and
House for the purpose of having them inquired into. the whole matter was on the point of being settled,
If they had occurred subsequently, he (Mr. S.) was not when something interposed, the amicable negotiations
capable of disproving them at this moment. He was were broken off, and hostilities commenced. Another
in the chair of the Committee in 1837, and wearisome remarkable circumstance in this transaction was, that
as that investigation was, he would prefer going into a si- France, not content with the simple act of blockade,
miler investigation to having unsupported reflections had associated her flag with that of individuals actually
brought before the House in the way that had in rebellion against the Government. France, in con-
now been done. He went into Committee perfectly cert with those insurgents and rebels, at one time
unbiassed either way, although he confessed he felt a overturned the regular Government of Monte Video.
prejudice that a system of schools brought in by Lord The disputes with Mexico were very much of the same
Stanley, and approved of by Lord Morpeth, would not nature as those with Buenos Ayres, but the French had
not be likely to be injurious to the Protestant religion. certainly more reason for a transaction with the former
He however arrived at the conclusion that this could Power than with the latter. A forced loan had been
not be a complete system of united education, and taken from the British subjects by the Mexican Go-
chiefly because of the opposition of the clergy of the vernment, and he, from his connection with
Established Church of Ireland. In reference to what Liverpool had often had occasion to remonstrate with
the Hon. Gentleman had said about the unequal distri- his Noble Friend upon the subject. He acknowledged
bution of the grants to different parts of the country, that the Mexicans had been,like all half-civilized nations,
and as that Hon. Gentleman had founded it so very backward in giving that protection to Foreigners
entirely on what had been stated by the Noble Lord within their territory ; but, at the same time he was not
below him (Lord Stanley), he would refer the Hon. prepared to say that the French Government was jnsti-
Gentleman to the letter of the Noble Lord, in which tied in using so much rigour with the Mexicans as theyhad
he suggested that the local distribution of the done. At all events, they had not shown that attention:to
funds should depend on local circumstances. the rights—the interests of neutral nations, that they
Then there was a subsequent accusation of the Hon. ought to have done. Again, it was found that the
Member, which was, that most improper persons had French under the plea which they had set up, were ex-
been selected as schoolmasters. Now if his (Mr.V. S's.) torting commercial privileges from the Mexicans—a
impression of what had taken place before the Commit- principle entirely new to all the laws of nations. In
tee was correct, the very reverse was the fact. The May, a blockade was notified upon the coast of Mexico.
Hon Member had gone into detail upon that subject, and The question he was inclined to raise was whether the
he had particularly referred to the case of a person British Government was called upon to recognize that,
named White, whom he had denominated as every blockade with such speed as they had done.
thing that was bad ; now with respect to the mode in Considering the immense interests we had in that
which the Hon. Member had obtained the evidence upon country, was it not their duty first of all to have in-
which he had founded those charges. It was clear from quired whether there were good grounds for the blockade,
the Hon. Member's own statement, that it was upon and, secondly, whether it was properly enforced. He
very slight grounds.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted had looked through the whole of the writers upon the
therefore that the House would ponder well before law of nations, and it was a full and recognised prin-
it put much ' faith in the statement of the eiple, by all writers, that unless a blockade was enforced
Hon. Member upon the subject generaly. If a in such a manner as to put in jeopardy any ship going
general measure was introduced, he should be prepared in or coming out of the port in question, it could not be
to state his opinions, but at present he did not consider recognised as effective. Now the fact was, that one of
it necessary to enter further into the subject. the principal ports of Mexico had not been seen by a
Lord TEIGNMOUTH thought the statements of French ship since May. The Noble Lord then read
the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland were such as several extracts from remonstrances made by Admiral
to justify those who differed with him in stating their Rowley against a blockade notified by the Spanish Go-
opinions. He felt hound to deprecate the present sys- vernment, and also extracts from a remonstrance made
tern of education in Ireland, as it was becoming gra- by a French Admiral, justifying the principles he laid
dually and exclusively Popish. That, however, was to down as to what constituted an effective blockade. Her
be expected, looking at the course that had been pur- Majesty's Government, so far from showing that anxiety
sued in governing Ireland.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") which became them as Ministers of the Crown, from the
The system of education in Ireland, so far from having first had shown a disposition to take part with France.
succeeded had totally failed, and lie would be ready to So far from attempting to mediate between the two
join issue with the Noble Lord on this subject. powers, and so protecting the commercial interests of
Sir F. TRENCH considered the Irish system of this country, in answer to remonstrances from the mer-
education as part of that crusade which had been under- chants of Liverpool and of London, his Noble Friend
taken by her Majesty's Government against the Protes- directed his secretary to state that he was not aware
tant Church. He differed from the Hon. Member for that the French had exceeded the maritime law, nor did
Wicklow, who had brought this subject forward, on one he see any good reason to justify their interference in the
point, he meant the agricultural schools; be looked matter. In his opinion the Admiralty were equally to
more to those schools for the benefit of Ireland than to blame with the Foreign Office. At the time these oc-
any other measure. Thank Heaven they had last night currences first took place, there was not a single ship of
disposed of the question which threatened to destroy agli- war on the coast. If there was no reason for them then,
culture in Ireland. He differed from the Hon. Gentle- why should the country be put to the expense and in-
man totally in his desire for the introduction of manu-
convenience of sending out such a large force now.
factures into Ireland. He wished to see agricul-
Her Majesty's Government, instead of taking the part
of British merchants, appeared to take the part of the
tare encouraged, and should be happy to see the
French Government. A blockade to be respected ought to
Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin devot-
be effectual, but the French blockade at Mexico had not
ing the great powers of his mind to the improvement
been so. He had a right to say that British merchants
of agriculture instead of agitation, as he conceived that
had suffered ; for when the bombardment of Vera Cruz
attention to agriculture would make Ireland a happy
took place, and when British merchants were obliged to
country.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that this never could nor fly from the town, their property was unprotected, and
l
ought to succeed as a joint system of national education. left at the mercy and good will of a hostile force, with-
The Protestant Clergy neither could nor ought to co- out a single British vessel being there to protect them.
operate with the Roman Catholic Priests ; they could
They had a right to say that that was a serious injury
not do so on principle ;he hoped they never would do to their interest, to their character, their understanding,
so. The Noble Lord had related an instance of one of their importance and dignity as British merchants.—
There was no British force to throw the protection of their
these schools, which was in connection with a nunnery,
and had said it was a pity this should be the case ; country around them, at the time, perhaps, when life
he thought that this was far too mild an expression, and property might depend on the respect due to the
and trusted that the Christian men of this country would British Government. It certainly was remarkable that
e throughoutet,tb er,
the
there
the w
awhole t ofon
ethis i
pa ffoafi rw, untilar t o the
protectend Britishof
port of such a system as this.De-
never be called upon to vote a grant of money in sup-
interests other
Ha
e i
etha_n
( thoseer ,
that
hear.) ni
Whenightcasu they all
enter
the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
Gulf offound a
defended the system of education, not as the best trade amounting to between a million or a million and a-
system he could wish to see in operation, but as the half for eight or ten months, was it to be wondered at
best system that under the circumstances of the that loud complaints should be made ? Another ground
case could be devised for Ireland; but those very cir- for showing why this blockade was not one they ought
cumstances rendered it totally inapplicable to England. to respect was, that it had not been uniformly enforced or
He would never wish to see proselytising schools efficiently maintained ;on the contrary, it was enforced or
established in Ireland. He had visited one of these relaxed according to the caprice of the French Govern-
schools which was under the exclusive direction of ment. With regard to the connexion of the French
a Roman Catholic priest ;he had visited without notice, withion Anlnexitclote, therertapgrzde toFrbeencnhot
to
a tdeecttermthinz
desired to look at the rules of the school, and requested commercial intercoursea with that coouXtrroy, but to
that the regular business of the day might be observed. pursue ulterior measures to establish a permanent footing,°
The order of the day was the reading the scripture ex- and took advantage of petty squabbles for that pur_
tracts ; after the children had read the extracts he (the pose.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped the House would pardon
Chancellor of the Exchequer) questioned them, and him for having trespassed on its attention, but being con-
he never found children answer more satisfactorily. netted with a great commercial community, he hoped he
Now, why was it that this school was under the exclusive might be excused for asking for a full discussion of this
superintendence of the Roman Catholic priest ? Because subject, in order to know what course the Government had
the Protestants, from one motive or another, had with- pursued, and to hear from the Noble Lord the Secretary
drawn. The Hon. Gentleman stated that they never for Foreign Affairs why so little protection had been
could co-operate from principle, so that, with the expres- afforded to British merchants. If England had sent a
sion of a wish for the largest extension of a system of British force within the contested quarters—in the river La
Plata and the Gulf of Mexico—not for the purpose of
education, he laid it down that the grants should be coming into hostile collision with the French fleet, but for
confined to those who admitted the free reading of the the purpose of showing we were then ready to protect
Scriptures, which he knew would exclude the majority British subjects and the great British interests at stake,
of the population from the benefit of the grant. he was convinced France would never have pushed the
The O'c ONNOR DON protested against the use of hostility to such an extent, and that we should not have seen
the term Popish priests, and the calumnies which had our commerce intercepted in the way it had been, and above
been uttered against that body of men by the Hon. Gen- all, he believed the honourable British flag would not have
tlemen opposite ; but his version of the term Christian been exposed to the insult it had experienced. Under these
c
charity taught him to do good for evil, and therefore lie circumstances he felt himself entitled to call on her Ma-
would bear witness to the virtues and Christian charity jesty's Government not only for copiesemof any correspond.iti
of a Protestant Prelate, Dr. Law, the Bishop of Leighlin. chants
ttsh
in
nt may
Liverpool,have passedas bwetwoerenth Belfast, and 15
and an account
When he came to his diocese he said his object was to of the cost of. British force stationed in the Gulf of Mexico
make good Christians of all the people in it—good at the time of the taking of San Juan d'Ulloa, but that lie
Protestants if he could, and if not good Catholics, and was also entitled to know from his Noble Friend the Se_
lie therefore provided books for them to instruct there cretary for the Foreign Department what tone he adopted
in the general principles of Christian charity, so that at in his remonstrance with the French Government, and
all events they should be good Christians. He would whether he took a more British tone than that which he
say to Hon. Gentlemen opposite, "Go ye, and do assumed in that House ?—( Cheers.)
likewise" Mr. GOULBURN seconded the motion.
Mr. S. MAXWELL totally disapproved of the na- Lord PALMERSTON said be must acknowledge that
tional system of education in Ireland, because he con- his Noble Friend had abstained from anything likely to
sidered it an unwarrantable desecration of the word of create injurious feelings—so far at least as was consistent
God. He agreed in every thing that had fallen:fromthe . As to the
with the nature of the topics which his Noble Friend
Hon. Member for Kilmarnock, and believed that this had brought forward.—( Hear, hear, hear. As
sstem was established, not as a substitute for the head- greater part of the documents for which his Noble. Friend
schools, but to suant the Scripture schools.
moved, he had no objection to their production ;
Pp l
Mr. PRINGLE trusted the Hon. Member for but he trusted the House would agree with him that it
would not be for the interest of the public service to pro-
Wicklow would press for the returns, because it was duce communications with foreign Governments, founded
desirable to ascertain the cause of the failure of this upon certain memorials which had been presented. In
scheme, and it was els) necessary when the House was most of the general principles which his Noble Friend had
called upon to vote grants to know for what purpose advanced, he entirely concurred—for instance, he quite
those grants were applied. agreed that a blockade ought to be effective in order to be
Mr. GRATTAN replied. respected; it was only in the application of those princi-
Lord MORPETH felt some hesitation in acceding pies that he diflered from his Noble Friend. He begged

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, INIARCH 20, 1889

to say that in this question the Government had not acted
upon its own unadvised responsibility, but had been guided
in all its measures by the legal authority which it was in
the habit of consulting,. His Noble Friend appeared to
consider, that the notification, by this or any other Go-
vernment of a blockade established by a foreign power
against a third power, was necessary to give force and
legality to that blockade. But he (Lord Palmerston) ap-
prehended that the effect of such notification was simply to
warn British merchants of a blockade, and to caution them
against running into any danger likely to arise. And his
Noble Friend was mistaken in supposing that this noti-
fication gave additional force to the blockade. If
the Government had said to British merchants, "Go into
the port"—the Government would have taken upon itself
the responsibility of a war with France in support of the
claims of merchants whose ships might have been taken.
Now, as to the general question; the state of the nego-
tiations between France and the powers of South America
previous to the blockade, was such that the two parties
might naturally be considered at war ; for the one power
demanded a satisfaction, which if not granted, would be
enforced by a naval armament. As to the Mexican
blockade, the French force, from the commencement, was
sufficient to make it effective. But would it not have been
dealing much too lightly and inconsiderately with the
weighty question of war or peace, to have hastily decided
that a blockade was not effective, merely on the repre-
sentations of some merchants. He must solemnly vindi-
cate himself and the Government from the charge which
had been brought against them, of being indifferent to the
interests of commerce. He denied the charge
most unequivocally.—( Hear, hear.) He ventured to
say there never was an Administration that paid more
attention to the commercial interests of the country, than
the present Government. And for himself, he ( Lord
Palmerston) would affirm that, anxious as he had been to
cultivate alliances with foreign nations—the interests of
England had been the polar star--the leading principle of
his policy, and he defied any one to show a single act of
his which could be attributed to a different principle.—
( Hear, hear.) He repelled the taunt as unworthy of his
Noble Friend.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend bad
said that France under the Bourbons had been desirous to
establish a permanent influence in South America : and
that in 1821, France endeavoured to persuade the republic
of Buenos Ayres to become a monarchy. It was natural
enough that France should be as anxious to extend her in-
fluence and interests as England was to extend her ascen-
dency. But as to the conduct of France, he (Lord Pal-
merston) did not stand there in the capacity which his
Noble Friend had endeavoured to put upon him, as a Mi-
nister of France. He stood there only as a Minis-
ter of England. It was not for him to defend the
conduct of France. It was sufficient for him to vindicate
the English Government. He did not find fault with his
Noble Friend for the manner in which he had criticised
the conduct of France, in respect to Buenos Ayres and
Mexico; for the question certainly did bear upon the in-
terests of England.—( Hear, hear). But his Noble
Friend would permit him to say that the example which
he had set ought to be followed with great caution and
circumspection ; for if it were to be established as a
practice, that the legislature of our country was to make
the subject of its debates the conduct of another country
in relation with a third power, great evils would arise
therefrom—considerable injustice would be the result of
charges brought forward against absent parties, and irri-
tation would naturally be produced between different
countries. If such a practice were to be pursued, it
would be right, that, as in France, any of the M'nisters
were at liberty to go into either Chamber, to vindicate
themselves from charges brought against them, so that the
Ministers of different countries should be permitted to be
present in the Legislatures of anyof those countries,to answer
the imputations that might be cast upon them. —( Hear, hear).
It was not just therefore that France should be put upon
its trial in that House with no opportunity of being heard
in its defence.—( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the
Opposition.) While making this general remark, he
(Lord Palmerston) had already stated that it was not ap-
plicable to the present case, because his Noble Friend had
shown that the interests of England were involved.—( Hear,
hear.) He agreed with his Noble Friend that it was not
usual for one country to attempt, by force of arms, to compel
another country to adopt a commercial treaty which ought
rather to be made the subject of independent negotiations.
—( Hear, hear.) And so, with regard to exemption from
military service, any country had a right to say whether fo-
reigners should come in or go out as it thought fit, and that
foreigners choosing to reside in such country should conform
to its laws and usages. With respect to Mexico, the British
Government had frequently had occasion to complain of in-
justice committed by the Mexican Government on British
subjects ; and it would be going hastily to a conclusion to
affirm that the Government of France might not !have
felt itself justified, from the complaints of its subjects,
to demand some definite satisfaction ; and it would
be unwise to judie, from the magnitude of any particular
case on which two countries might come to a quarrel,
which of the contending parties was in the right. His
Noble Friend had said that the proceedings of the French
Government in Buenos Ayres deserved the imputation
that they were desirous of forming a permament settlement
in that country. But the British Government had obtained
from the French Ministry a formal declaration that they
did not intend to retain any permanent settlement in
Buenos Ayres or Mexico. With regard to Mexico, when
the dispute first arose the British Government had offered
its mediation, which in some degree had been ac-
cepted by France, and acted upon with great zeal by
the British Charge de Affaires, and the French
Admiral had expressed his gratitude to our agents
and officers for their humane exertions in preventing
those hostilities which might otherwise have occurred.
His Noble Friend had said that a British force should
have been in Mexico earlier in the transaction. But the
upshot of his Noble Friend's argument was that the block-
ade ought not to have been permitted. Now he ( Lord
Palmerston) would put it to the House whether the
injuries to British interests arising from that blockade—
injuries which he was unfortunately compelled to admit—
were such as would have justified the Government in
going to war with France, for it would come to that?
He did not think such a principle of action should be re-
cognized by Great Britain. How would they like if such
a principle were applied to themselves? If they had cause
of complaint against any other power, would they suffer
France to interfere, and say, " Yost shall not make war."
Would they not have received such an interference as a
national insult ?—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the
squadron sent out to Vera Cruz, it had nothing to do
but to watch the progress of the blockade, and,
for that purpose, the Admiral commanding on the
West India station received orders which orders
were carried into effect. When it was intimated to
the English Government that offensive operations were
about to be carried on against San Juan d' Ulloa, a larger
naval force was sent out—not certainly for the purpose of
interfering with the French squadron in its operations, for
if such were the intentions he would at once admit that it
came too late—but it had been sent out for the purpose of
giving a moral weight.._( Ironical cheers.) He repeated
the phrase " moral weight," which had not been treated so
derisively when used by a Noble Lord on the other side of
the House in similar circumstances.—(Cheers.) But, he
would ask the House, was England the country t• com-
plain of other nations having recourse to block ado for the
purpose of enforcing their demands ?—( Hear, hear.) He
did not wish to weary the House, but he had in his hand a
list of forty or fifty blockades instituted by England during
the late war.
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should be made for the peculiar position in which that
country was placed, and which rendered it highly injudi-
cious for him to state what the intentions of the Govern-
ment were. In such a ease the answer would have been
published in the papers, and it would have enabled certain
parties to shape their speculations accordingly ; at the same
time lie must distinctly state that he had not the most re-
mote intention of treating those parties with any want of
courtesy.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now with regard
to the statement that specie would not be allowea to
be transmitted, he believed it would be found

that great courtesy was extended to the English Post.
office packets, the understanding being that they carried
nothing but letters, and under such circumstances it would
have been a violation of the good faith in which the ar-
rangement was made if specie or any thing else was intro-
duced or carried out of the Mexican ports. On the
whole, he was warranted in stating that there was no in-
attention to the British interests, but, on the contrary., a
great anxiety to promote them, which was met by a
corresponding feeling on the part of the French
Government.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had
stated that the blockade of these ports was the cause
of the great falling off that had taken plare in the exports,
and that circumstance had been quoted as the foundation
of various arguments recently urged in that House ; but he
would refer the Noble Lord for an answer to the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, who sat beside
him, who had proved a few nights since, to the great satis-
faction of his friends, taking article by article, that during
the year 1838, the very year in which the blockade had
been continued, the exports and imports of the country
had been steadily and gradually
increasing.—(Cheers. )
He had no objection to the other returns moved for by the
Noble Lord, but he hoped he would omit from them the
communications that had taken place with the French
Government.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. E. TENNENT complained that in the last twelve
months France had possessed herself of 2,000 miles of sea
coast in South America. He did not complain of that so
much as the absolute suspension of British commerce re-
sulting from the naval operations of that country. Ad-
mitting the right of France to blockade the coast of Mexico,
still it was incumbent upon Great Britain to inquire into
the sufficiency of the grounds on which a proceeding so
formidable to her trading interests had been instituted.
He believed that the grounds of quarrel originally sprung
out of the weakness of Mexico. The claim of France,
which was originally 122,000 dollars subsequently rose
to 600,000, by the admission of every complaint ad-
dressed to the French authorities. England and
America had each tendered their intervention, but they
were refused by France. It appeared to him that the
assault of France upon Buenos Ayres was based upon the
most unfounded pretensions, and notwithstanding every
explanation that had been given she had, to the present
hour, continued to enforce a strict blockade. England
was thus excluded from the important trade in the La
Plata and the Gulf of Mexico. It appeared to him that
this conduct of the French Government had seriously
affected the commercial interests of Great Britain, and
what added to the irritation of the case was, that the ex-
clusion seemed directed against British shipping aloneHe hoped her Majesty's Government would take measures.
cfoorpipeus of papers
an end to that state of things. The Hon.
Gentleman then alluded to the case of the insurrection at
Para in 1835, and the demand of British subjects for in-
demnification, which bad been refused or delayed by the
Government of Brazil, and concluded by moving for
papers connected with this affair, and the French
occupation of Guiana.
• Mr. GROTE thought it due to the numerous body whose
petition had been placed in his hands that day, on the subject '

of the motion of the Noble Lord, and also to the feelings of the
numerous body of merchants who composed the constituency
which he represented, to say a few words on this subject. No
man was less disposed than he was to meddle unnecessarily with
the Executive Government in the management of their foreign
policy ; but although he recognised the propriety of in general
abstaining from into fering with the Executive, yet there were
cases which imperatively called for the attention of this House ;
and though he felt the necessity of looking at the world as a
whole, and recollecting that what was said in that House was
read in Paris and Washington, which he wished Honourable
Members would sometimes keep in their recollection, still he
felt himself called upon to address the House on this subject.
There were three points which rendered this subject important.
The first was the extent of the inconvenience which our mer-
cantile interest had suffered in consequence of these blockades.
The second was that the blockades enforced by France against
Brazil and Mexico, did not appear to repose on any solid or
well grounded cause of complaint ; and the third was, the
want of alacrity on the part of our Government, in extending
the protection of the naval forces to the mercantile interests.—
( Cheers.) The first point had been adverted to by the Noble
Lord, the Hon. Member who had just sat down, bat the
extsat of British capital embarked in those countries,
should be recollected: There were seven large min-
ing establishments, conducted wholly by British capital,
which supplied nearly the whole of the silver imported to this
country, which amounted to from eight to ten millions of
dollars annually. This, as well as the importation of British
produce was wholly stopped. Merchants incurred serious loss
from their vessels loaded with goods being warned off by the
blockading squadron. Under these circumstances, the sufferers
called upon the House to examine the causes of this blockade.
in consequence of which they had suffered severe loss, and which
he conceived to he without the least rolid foundation. The
French Government in their disputes with these two States,
had mixed up two questions which should be kept always to-
tally separate—the redress of private wrongs and the este-
bliishment of certain principles of international law.—( Hear,
hear.) Their mode of proceeding was most unbecoming, for
at the same time that they strictly enforced the blockade
against Mexico, they acted in a totally different manner with
regard to the port of Callao, refusing to recognise the blockade
of the Chilian fleet, and forcing the passage for French vessels.
Thus the French Government would not acknowledge a rule
when it told against themselves, which they would strictly en-
force against others. He could not but regret that Mr. Pak-
enham and Admiral Douglas had not arrived at the end of Oc-
tober, instead of the end of December, as he thought that the
presence of the English Admiral and the English Charge d'Af-
faires would have caused the conferences at Xalapa to come to
a different determination. It addefl to the bitter feelings of
Englishmen on this subject when they recollected that France
had admitted the arbitration of England in her disputes with
the United States. The Noble Lord had asked if they were
prepared to go to war—he had no right to that excuse,
for he (Mr. Grote) did not believe that the intervention of
England would be ineffectual er unattended to. He hoped that
the news which had recently arrived would turn out correct,
and that Admiral Baudin would at last have consented to the
mediation of the English Admiral.—(Cheers.)
Dr. LUSHINGTON.—BeIieving the circumstances of the
case to be understood, and no important fact unknown, he
could not look upon the blockade of Mexico, or the transaction
on the coast of Africa, without deep regret and some feelings of
alarm. He fully concurred with his Noble Friend the Member
for Liverpool in his opinion, that the pretences of the French
Government for the blockade of Buenos Ayres were unjust.
He had never before heard the inhabitants of this country
might dwell in another and enjoy rights and laws which were
not in conformity to the interests of that country, nor had he
ever before heard of one country saying to another, " You
shall agree to a commercial treaty which we will propose whe-
ther yon will or no. Yen shall not judge of your own ad-
vantages or your own conyenience, nor decide a treaty accord-
ing to your own judgment." He would say that it was enough
to excite alarm to use France or any other nation in such a
manner. The Right Honourable Gentleman then proceeded
to advert to the relations of France with Mexico, Guiana, and
South America, and also to the principles of the blockade. To
talk of a blockading force being effectual when it was absent
for six months together, was altogether absurd. The meaning
of it was that uniformly and constantly the ports should be
shut against the ingress and egress of any vessel.—( Hear,
hear, and cheers.) suppose information had been obtained that
the blockade was not properly kept up, and that twenty or
thirty ships had been sent out, and found themselves under the
necessity of coming back, it was the first duty of a Foreign
Minister to prevent the great loss which might arise from such
a mistake.—(Hear, hear.') He entirely a
,reed in the obser-
vation that it was the duty of the Government to remonstrate
with France and urge the injustice of her conduct, but he did
not know that they could, in the present aspect of affairs, ascer-
tain wl.ether such remonstrance had taken place. Could any one
call on the Ministry to disclose what had taken place between
the two Governments under such circumstances ? He entirely
approved of his Noble Friend's course, and represented
as large a commercial interest as the Noble Lord
the Member for Liverpool. He hoped that nothing which had
occurred this evening could be represented to the French Go-
vernment as conveying on the part of any individual in the
House the slightest feeling of hostility to that Government.—
( Hear, hear.) But he trusted that it would convince the
French Government that we were wide awake—that while we
are desirous of conciliatory measures we will have justice done.
—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman' THOMPSON was desirous of replying to the
two propositions of the Noble Lord opposite, that British
interests had no right to complain of the want of protection,
and that there was a sufficient force in the Gulf of Mexico. Ire
had a letter from a British merchant at Vera Cruz at the time
of the bombardment of the Castle of San Juan d'Ulloa, and left
it to the country to decide whether the British interests
had the protection they required.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
The Hon. Member then read a letter of the date of the 27th
November, from a merchant of Vera Cruz, complaining that
they were left without protection, while, at the same time, the
Americans, whose trade was not one-tenth of the British, had
three ships of war in the Gulf. That letter was a com-
plete answer to the assertion of the Noble Lord, that the
commercial interests of this country were attended to and pro-
tected. The Satellite was not sent for the protection of our
trade, but was sant by the Governor of Jamaica for specie, and
finding that the assault was to take place, stopped one day but
declared that he could not, stop longer, as it would be against
his orders, and then he left the British interests to the pnltec-
den of a miserable packet. The French Admiral made a merely
assumed demand of 800,000 dollars ; he had no ground what-
ever for such a demand. The assault took place, as threatened,
and theref re he could not give such credit to Mr. Ashburnham as
the Noble Lord gave him. He had stated these facts, and he
had no dostbt the House would think he had answered the boast
of the Noble Lord.
Mr. C. WOOD said the Noble Lord who introduced the
motion had made a slight allusion to the department with
which he had the honour to be connected; but, from the turd
the debate had taken, he would not have considered it his duty
to address the House, had it not been for the allusions made by
the Hon. Member who had just sat down. The correspondent
of the Hon. Member did not go the length of saying that any
injury had been sustained from the naval force. So early as
April last, the Admiralty, finding it necessary that the Admiral
should be at different parts of his extensive station, sent a supe-
rior officer, Commodore Douglas, as a permanent resident on the
coast. With regard to the means provided on that part of the sta-
tion, he would state the number of ships and vessels that were at
his disposal, arid which, if he had thought necessary on receiving
any communication, he might have despatched to the Gulf o
Mexico. On the 2d of June he had $ sloops of war at his dis-
posal; on the 14th of August he had 8 sloops of war and a
steam vessel ; on the 7th September, the same ; on the 25th,
the same and a frigate ; the same on the 13th of October ; and
until the 13th of December, there was a force, never a less force,
than 8 sloops of war, a frigate, and a steamer. If the Commo-
dore had received a communication from the Consul at Vera
Cruz, he might at any time have sent to the Gulf of Mexico, for
such protection as British interests might seem to him to requite.
Then as to the complaint .that our merchants had not been
allowed to bring specie .from that coast. The application
mentioned by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Sandon) was
received on the Ist of August. On the same day the Admiral
wrote to his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, and on the 13th of August a communication was re-
ceived from the French Government stating that no restric-
tion would be placed on the importation of specie, and that they
had given orders to that effect.—( Hear, hear. )
111 r. WARD said the complaint against the French was,
that they had denied the application to themselves of those prin-
ciples which they had asserted in regard to other nations.
He hoped the result of this discussion would be to in-
duce the Government to protest against the con-
tinuance of a system under which British commer-
cial interests were so greatly suffering.—( Hear, hear.)
The representative of Frsnre had used a most insulting tone
towards the Mexican Government; and yet, if the French
Government were to land 20,000 men at Vera Cruz, it could
not obtain its object. He thought the Government of this
country should take strong measures to deter France from per-
sisting in its present course.—( Hear, hear).
Lord ELIOT considered that the Ministry ought to protest
against the illegal exercise, by France, of a most questionable
right of blockade.—(Hear' hear).
Sir DE LACY EVANS hoped with the Noble Lord that
nothing that occurred in the course of the debate would inter-
fere with the amicable relations subsisting between that country
and France. He believed similar feelings existed on the part
of the French Government. and that there was every disposi-
tion to maintain the good feeling that at present existed. He
believed, even if the Government of France meditated any
hostile movement, the French people would not have gone along
with it.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said if the Noble- Lord had
received from the French Government a satisfactory and
formal assurance with respect to the occupation of certain
parts of South America—he presumed there could be no objec-
tion to lay that document before the British public.—(Hear. )
The impression created upon his mind by the debate was, that
there was very little use in having a Navy, or an Ambassador,
because the Noble Li rd told them that the Ambassador was unfor-
tunately absent, and he had further contended that the presence
of a naval force would not have operated as a protection to Bri-
tish commerce. If that be so, lie could not understand why
they maintained a peace establishment. if they had 20 sail of the
line, ansl altogether 180 pennants, what was that for? He, (Sirß.
Peel) understood it was for the protection of their commerce. It
was admitted that there was a large force upon the West India
station, and the Commodore had it in his power to detach a cer-
tain force to the Gulf of Mexico, but considering the relations
existing between France and that country, it was a delicate
thing for him to de so. He wanted to know what the Com-
modore's instructions were. The Government at home was
better acquainted with the intentions of France, and it would be
rather hard to devolve upon him the responsibility of taking
any steps without receiving instructions. The Noble Lord
admitted that after the capture of San Juan D'Ulloa, such was
the alarm at Vera Cruz, that every single British inhabit-
ant, with the exception of the Consul, removed with whatever
moveables he possessed, and 30 English residents took refuge on
board a British packet. Did not that show the necessity of
having a naval force in the Gulf? He held in his hand a
letter addressed to the Lords of the Admiralty, in which it was
stated that Captain Kirk, who had arrived off the port with a
cargo of English manufactured goods, worth 50,0001., had
been warned off by the French men-of-war, and was obliged to
return to Liverpool. The. Captain had been allowed to land,
and had an interview with the consignees, and that had been
done by favour of the Commander of an American brig of war,
who had lent him his boat to convey him to shore and back
again.—(Hear, hear.) If there was no necessity for a
British naval force, would the Noble Lord tell him why
they had a British fleet now in the Gulf of Mexico?
The Noble Lord had said that the presence of the fleet was
necessary to give moral influence to the representation of our
Minister—but suppose that Mexico said that she, as an indepen-
dent nation, would not agree to a treaty under a threat of a
penalty of hostilities. What moral influence would the British fleet
have there more than in the time of blockade. If the Noble Lord,
relying upon the justice and equity of the French and Mexican
negociatiens, still thought it necessary to have a fleet there in
order to give moral influence to our representations—especially
on behalf of British subjects, he thought there was no excuse
for not having a fleet there during the operations of the block-
ade ; and if a very strong country were permitted to lay down
conditions to a very weak one in the manner that France had
done to Mexico, he must say that the influence of Great Bri
tain in South America would soon decline.

Lord PALMERSTON said that he had been misunderstood
by the Right Hon. Baronet. Would not the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet admit that when two parties assumed the belligerent atti-
tude, the advice of a strong friend was more likely to be regarded
than that of a weak one'?—( Hear, hear, hoar.) The Right
Hon. Baronet had alluded to the hardship of an English mer-
chant who could not land at Vera Crux, except from an Ame-