The Sun.
London, England, 1830-11-16 00:00:00

' • 'l'4-
titey were told %bathe Monarch had '500,0004 a-year for
own private and personal gratification 2—( Hear, hear.)
Nhet would they think when they heard that nu ttlif
4erviee was mixed up with this grant—hut that it we►
wholly devoted to tl.e private and personal gratificat Oh
his 111,0ty 7—((lear, bear, hum the Opposition.) Ile
,e,euld maintain that such a tour* was more likely in
jute the monarchy, and teas more calculated to bri
into obloquy and distrust than the existing system.
the lion. Baronet had another reason for wishing \
dude the Foreign Ministers front the Civil List.,

wished that 'tile liothe should have annually an opport

of declaring whether a Minister should be sent to one Poore
mrrountry, or toantother, If such wure_to he the result
of the lion. B ironet's proposition, he hesitated not say,
that he looked on it, not as an advantage, but as a great in-
jury to the real power of ~the country,_ and to its _political
greatness. It was not for that House to say whethet polls,
tical relations shoull be kept up with one Poier or
another. The Constitution has wisely placed that uthis-
rity in the hands of the Crown. lie would not detain the
House with any further observations ; hut, convinced as
he was, that no other System was so proper as that which
had been propoeed by Ministers, he shosold meet the motion
of the Hon. Baronet with his most decided negativei
Mr. BIOMES said, that Ministers having laid before
the House, eiewini customary on former, occasions, an esti-
mate of what appearedqo them to he necessary forth! Civil
List, he could see no reason why the documents connected
with the subject should not lie submitted to a &lel Com-
mittee.—(Hear, bear.) That certainly was th most
commodious way in which the House could become ac-
quainted with all the details of the question...4year.)
lte was not aware of the use or benefit of that sort Of mys-
tery which was attempted to be thrown over this impor-
tant subject.-41Iear, hear.) How, be asked, could it be
advantageous to the Crown, or satisfactory to the coun-
try ?--(Hear, Lear.) In 'his opinion this subject ought
to be clearly brought within the sphere of the intelligence
of that House.-. 48 indeed every thing conneeted With the
finance of the country ought to be.—.(Hear, hear.)i It wag
the more necessary that this subject should underia Wirt
Ligation in 3 Committee, because, according to tin; show-
ing of the Right lion. Gentleman ' himself, there was a
new claaiification of the Civil List, with reference to cer-

taro poi is
tts.— points.--(lisle
Civil l lel
L.t
arihe:ver.t)e
to b They
taken away, and that
y mere toldthet
sotue
j
iat
certain new arrangements were to be made. If that were
so, where could those alterations be so well considered as
in a Committee ?—fileer, hear.) There could not possibly
be a subject more fit to be investigated and determined by
gentlemen up stairs.-.-(Hear.) Thepoint which the Righ.t,
Hun. Gentleman had noticed bud reference to foreign 31i-
filters.' liekeew that that subject had been formerly
debated. and be confessed tl,fit'he bad not, as yet, formed
a decided opinion, whether the expense of foreign Mimi..
teas should continue to be charged on the Civil List, or
whether it should be differently provided for. He was
anxious that the inconvenience which resulted from the
running in debt of the Crown, with inference to this and
other charges, should be completely avoided. In touching
on this point, be must be allowed to observe, that no one
had argued, in the courts of the debate, that that House
should assume the right of declaring with what power this
country 'bout& or should not, keep up amicable relations.
He would ask whether the explanation given on the sub-
ject of the Civil List by Ministers was so perfectly clear
that Parliament ought to be satisfied with it ?—(Hear,
hear.) lie did not think 4)0'4 was, and he was quite
sure that a great deal of useful information might be derived
hoiden inquiry in a Committee...-( He sr, hear.) When
the proposition for a Committee was opposed, lie called on
Hun. Melaka to point out the inconvenience of it ; and,
if they could not do that, he contended that they were not
justified in supposing it.-(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CALCRAFT was net aware that any Committee',
on so occasion of this kind, when provision was about to
he made to support the dignity sit the Crown, had ever
been appointed to act as assessors. The Committee to
which the lion. Baronet had particularly alluded was' ap-
pointed by that House in order' to give satisfaction to the
country, by endeavouring to effect sonic relief of its bur-
dens. It wits under these cireumstances that the appoint-
ment of that Committee took place. Hut how slid they
stand with respect to the Civil List? The amount of that
Litt was settled in 1815, and, from 1820,-when his late
:Majesty succeeded. to the throne, upto the prersint mo-
ment, that Civil List had been found 'efficient for its pur-
pose. No debt hid been incurred..-nu additional charge,
bad taken place—and yet, when his Majesty's Ministers
proposed, not au increase to the Civil List as it now stood
but an absolute reslection, as his. Right Hon. Friend had
'thew'', of 85.0007;, and in addition to that, by certain
transfers, it further diminution of 50,0007., making •
total of 195,0007., they were called on to submit thewhole
question to a Coinmittee. In making this statement; be
of course did not touch upon the cessation of the allowance
to the Duke of Clarence, because be could not' consider
it is arising out of any economical arraugernent.—
(Laughter.) He stood there to speak his 'opinion freely,
mill Le was astonished that any man, conversant with
figures, could state the ease otherwise than he had done.
The silowance of the Deice of Clarence war a saving , but
is eert einly slid not arise out:of any economical arrange-
ment. They bad now, `for the that time; to deal with a
CivirList, which, during an experience of sixteen years,
had not run in debt ; and, even on that list, his Right
lion. Friend !wallow! to make" a reduction of 135,0001.
Hut the Hon. Baronet, netwithetauding this, said, " We
ought to submit the subject to a Committee." He di I
not wish the Committee to consider those plots which
had reference to.the personal splendour of the Crown, but
lie wanted them to apply themselves to other *Ms and
articles which were included in the Civil I:jut. Now,
whether it would or would not ,be better to divide those
items froM the others, end to 'leave them to be unusually
voted by. Parliament--wlietlier it would or would not be
betuer to einifisie ourselves to voting that which Was neces-
sary to the 'splendour of the Crown for lifie.this, he con-
lessee& was a point on which he' had not entirely made up
his mind, as his Right Eon. Colleague had du:le.—(lieer.
and laughter.) . Ile stated What he thought and felt, al it
was his duty to do ; and if he spoke more explicitly than
others, such cenduct, he was sure, would not be met with
diewprohation.—(llear, bear.) The Hon. Baronet ad-
mitted diet the worst thing that
...could be dude was, to
'grant the Crown so little as to render it liable to be in-
volved in dido, and thin to compel it to apply to Parlia-
ment for further provision ; and yet the Him. Baronet
was got content to take the Civil List, Which had an
slavered shit ieg A trial of sixteen years, on which a consi-
derable saving was Prepoeefl, but lie called also lir :yenta-
mittee. tie saw no necessiity fur such a Connthittee, and
be ebould Vote against it: lie did not think, the splen-
dour and dignity of the Crown bring provided tor, that a
reduction in the other iiems ought to be made bye. Com-
mittee upstairs in preference to its being theuct of the
House itself Iteductione might be made, in the coin seof
examinations in that plume, and it ought to be recoiled:Aid
that this measure must go through a great inonber of
stages before it
,was perfected.
Lord ALT 110111) observed, that when the We t lion.
Gentleman alluded to the fact of Mr. TierneVe having
refused, oe one occasion, to serve on a Coss:lnittee, because
it IVO not enipowered to examine persons, papers, sod re-
cords, it slid not, in his miutl, bear strongly against the
argument of his lion, Friend. Ile slid not mean to urge
it pervenally ageiest his Right lion. Friend, who had just
;pet down, that lii 1815 he supported the proposition Which
was, then tubule, and to which the Chancellor Of the'llSx-
chequer had alluded, but he whited to observe, Plat it the
commencement of a new reign, in 1820, his Bight Hon.
Friend, who was. one of 157 who voted fur the extensive
motion of Lord John Burnell, the object. of which was to
,refer the Civil List estimates to a Committee,: that they
might be properly examinO,' though he opposed such a
:course now. lie (Lord Althorp) and his lino. Friends
now demanded a Ceininittee; beezture they were; of opinion
that they ought to compare the items of the Resent scale
with those which bed formerly been submitte4 to Parlia
nient. The 'Bight lion. Gentleman told them, that the
proposes] reduction was to he found in page 25 of the
papery. He (Lord.Altlierp) knew that; butsey could
only see it there in the lump, and not in particulars, as be
lilliga it.-:..(Hear, hear.)—li they agreed to the reduce
1,
800 witliset enleripg into particulars, they ere likely
to full into considerable •error. tt was iquite nu-
poeeilile for them. without a more sletejles! eretnin4-
thin than they could have. In that HoUseel to arrive
acostii
it
tt leadeacbootandeeci uet sors4vnt te
lot
,ii:al tesieesotatfiloo.fel- p
eir Orlon:111U, : : was;sis)na ,ve. said,
ut tle s
i:' (list they
records. Cohn sie
Such a permiesion would, lie knew, ba a vet y great in-
crease of power ; but, could no informatiou' he afforded,
if that power wererefused ? He admitted that 1,11 great de-
gree of delicacy ought to be observed with respect to cer-
, tain livaali of the Civil faist.---(ifeeru beel'.).---Pfor til "t"'
ePail:itrt-fe,lt an
tlet:ire*
to examine 1,1441; iii
? lie wishednot to have.atieli a pit "c
thesis ; on the
.yel.. 1, But' with
reao'ectlo inarie,oll;er Bettie, *in wh:01 nu such feelingssi
.
e t
delicacy etleched, lie conceived that tritich palpable in-
formation miges be elicited, atul therelore he *mild imp
port the motion of his lion. Friend.--(llene', hear.),_-
There were many paints, in the other Baena, that
ref-mired .cleer, ex platietio n --(Hear, hear)—an certainly
it was proper that the Ilisti-e *should 'have Bs means to
reeesonplithing that obiert.—(liear, hear.)—flie was of
4,0,ia1l thief skate item; ..1,,,441 underga a thefeagli exa
mination, which wouldrewls4 the titehjeet mow kite mei
tangible thee the speech of the Bight quit. jetitlentais,