The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-30 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, APRIL 30, 1539

Mr. NREION thought it would be better to-have a Select
Committee, but his great object was to prevent delay.
Mr. O'CoNNoR thought that the objects of Mr. Bussey
would be best accomplished by a Select committee. He
felt bound to state that he was convinced that but for the
Convention, the people would have resorted ere this to
acts of violence --(Cheers. ) it was the duty of the Con-
vention to assume a positive position, it had reeked the cradle
long enough of the infant—(Laughter)—and it had now
come to maturity.—( Cheers.) They bad not yet digested
the Charter, although that was the first work they ought
to have taken in hand. He hoped that the Convention
would now form itself into a Committee, in order to form
the groundwork of the Charter.—( Cheers.) Notwith-
standing the advice of some portion of the Press, he must
say that the Convention did not sit there for the purposes
of revolution. Before one system was destroyed, another
should be discovered —(Cheers ) The French revolu-
tion, and those which had been the consequence of it, al-
though intended for good, bad ended in evil, because no
preparation had been made to ctrer to the people the sub-
stitution of a good Government for the bad one which had
been destroyed, and the first thing that occurred in conse-
quence was, that advantage had been taken of this state of
negligence.
Mr. SANKEY rose to order.
_ _ _

Mr. F. O'CONNOR-If he were out of order, he would
content himself with saying that the suffering people of
Manchester and the North would not wait any longer; and
if M. Bussey would persevere in pressing his motion, he
would second it.

HETHERINGTON said that he considered it extremely
desirable that this question should be referred to a Com-
mittee of seven. Mr. O'Connor had complained of the
Charter being indefinite, when the fact was, that the
Charter, as far as principles were concerned, was the
most definite thing ever brought before the country.
If anything could put in a claim for finality, it was the
Charter—( Cries of " No, no," from some of the mem-
bers)—because it gave all the people the right to have
a voice in the choice of their representatives. There
had been a talk of new constitutions. He was for the Go-
vernment of King, Lords, and Commons, but when he
said this he meant all the Commons, and if all the Com-
mons were such fools as to uphold a useless system
of Government, he was but one of the Commons, and
must submit to the will of the majority. He did not like
the language of Mr. O'Connor, that the Charter was
based in fiction—there was no fiction either in its principles
or its details. They had nothing to do with new consti-

tutiuns.
Mr. O'CONNOR rose to explain. Ho had been misre-
presented. He had said that the principle of the Charter
would stand, but that its details were bad, and that on

that point they would be attacked.
Mr. WIIITTLE was not prepared to go into Committee
this morning; he wished that every Member on going into

Committee, should be prepared to state his deliberate
opinions, so as to make the report of the Committee as
perfect as possible. There was no reason for haste, as
they had time enough before them.
Mr. BUSSEY would adopt Dr. Fletcher's suggestion, if

the Committee were called on to report in two days.
Mr. ROGERS thought two days not long enougb, con-
sidering how important this step was likely to prove ; he
would suggest that it should be an open Committee, in-
stead of a Committee of seven.

Mr. PITICRITHLRY suggested to Mr. Bussey that he
should state what he proposed to be done, in the event of
the petition being received.
Mr. Lower said that if they discussed ulterior measures
before the presentation of the petition and the intro-
duction' of the Bill into the House of Commons, they
would break through the rules laid down for the Convention.
He would agree to the Committee of seven, and suggested
that they should state their report to the individual
Members, but not to the Convention itself until after the
9th of May.

A long conversation ensued as to whether the Com-
mittee should be an open one, when
Mr. CARPRNTER rose and said that a Committee of
seven was too small a number for the discussion of a ques-
tion of such importance. He should prefer &Committee of
twenty-five ; and when it was considered that the ulterior
measures to be agreed on by this Committee might put
in jeopardy the personal liberty, and perhaps the lives, of
the Members of the Convention, he thought seven too small
a number. He thought, the Committee having come to a
decision as to the ulterior measures to be adopted, should
not announce them publicly, until the approach of
Whit-Monday, in order to take advantage of the enthu-
siasm which would be excited, as it might
prevent the Government from adopting measures calculated
to frustrate their intentions. He concluded by moving as
an amendment, the appointment of a Committee of twenty
with directions to report this day fortnight.
After a few observations from Mr. &WIRY and Mr.
CARPENTER,

Dr. FLETCHER replied, and the Committee was then
balluted for.
Upon which the following seven gentlemen were elected
by ballot to serve on this Committee :

Messrs. Frost, Bussey, Mills, Hetherington, Duncan,
Fletcher, and O'Connar.

Mr. LOVETT handed in one pound rent from Tewkes-
bury. The letter which contained it stated that the mid-
dle classes were in general favourable to Chartists, and that
they hoped to be soon enabled to send numerous signatures
to the petition.
Mr. COLLINS handed in ten shillings, which be received

for the national rent under the anonymous signature of R.
Berkshire, and from Oxford 11. ; this was indicative of
the fears of a great many persons to become openly their
advocates.—( Hear, hear.)

ILLEGALITY OT TUE CONVENTION.

Mr. O'CONNOR stated that he perceived from the in-
dictment sent up to the Queen's Bench against the Rev.
Mr. Stephens, that the jurors of our Sovereign Lady in
Lancash ire had declared on their oaths that this Conven-

tion was an illegal body.—( Hear, and sensation.)

A motion of Mr. O'Connor's which stood next on the
list fur discussion was called on by the Chairman—" That
the Convention shall, after the presentation of the petition,
become a perambulating body, and that it shall hold its
sittings at Birmingham, Manciester, Newcastle, or at such
other places as to the Convention shall seem fit, with a
view of eliciting public opinion in those several localities
for the purpose of enforcing the People's Charter."
Mr. O'CONNOR hoped the Convention would allow him
to postpone the consideration of this resolution until to-
morrow. His motive for making the request was that it
was necessary to have the report of Mr. O'Brien, who had
been among his constituents in Lancashire, as to what
was the state of feeling at this moment among the masses
in the manufacturing districts.—( Hear.) Mr. O'Brien
would return by to. morrow, and as he had attended
nineteen great public meetings he would have
much valuable information for the Convention re-
lating to the opinions of the Lancashire people-
-information which would tend much to elucidate the
discussion on the resolutions, w hich he begged leave to with-

draw.—( Hear.) Another motive he bad in claiming this
indulgence was, that Mr. Whittle's motion relating to Mr.
Williams and the election for East Surrey might come on
without delay.

the consideration of a resolution then before the Meeting.—
(" No, no," from Mr. Sankey.) On that occasion, if
the Chairman was not right, a circumstance which was a
matter of opinion, the Meeting put a stop to any irregu-
larities that might have occurred. He did not think
there was one word in this resolution. more con-
firmatory of the line of conduct, which the Chairman
was to adopt, than in the rule which it was
seeking to enforce. ( Here Mr. Carpenter read the rule
from the minute-book, which went to say that no motion
could be entertained by the Convention unless it had three
days notice, or that it arose from some subject under dis-
cussion.) Now, surely there was nothing more in the ono
produced by Mr. Sankey ; here is the law, and it only re-
mains for the Convention itself to enforce it, without hav-
ing recourse to another resolution, which does not give any
further powers for carrying it into effect.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. Roam supported the motion. From Mr. Car-
penter's admission, the discussion on a former day did not
arise from the consideration of any question then before
the meeting, but as the Chairman thought it did, it was
allowed to go on. —( Hear, from Mr. Hetherington.) lie
Was of opinion that as their Chairman was changed every
day, it would be necessary that his line of proceedings
should be marked out for him. If they had a permanent
Chairman, it might then be prudent to leave him to his
own discretion.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HF.THERINGTON contended that the Chairman had
the right to give his dictum on a disputed point, and
that the Convention should abide by that dictum.—( Hear,
hear.) He should consider the opinion given by the
Chairman was as infallible as that of the Pope ; and that
like the Pope's opinion it should be implicitly obeyed.—
( Hear, and laughter.) It was the duty of the Convention
to decide on the eligibility of the individual before they
called on him to fulfil the duty—but when they had once
done so he took it that they were completely in his hands.
—( Hear, hear.) He was almost afraid that this resolution
was introduced from personal motives, as be had put down
both Mr. Sankey and Mr. Rogers in the course of the
debate on the day alluded to.—( Hoar.)
Mr. SANKEY replied. Upon which the question was put
and negatived.
Mr. Cauno postponed the report of the Petition until to-
morrow .

LONDON AGITATION.

The following Delegates were drawn by ballot to serve
on the London Missionary Committee :—Messrs. Whittle,
Knox, James Taylor, Skevington. Sankey, Rogers,
O'Brien, Loury, Cardo, Hartwell, Mills, and Burns.

FINANCIAL.

Mr. RoGERS read the statement of the funds, by which,
it appeared the balance of rent in hand was 1,0341. 10s. 10d.
and announced

TIIE RENT RECEIVED THIS DAY.

Radicals of Canterbury £1 0 0
Radical Association, Rotherhithe 4 0 0
Radical Association, Greenwich
Samuel Emsly
Houghton, near Blandford
Monkton, near Blandford 0 9 0
Blandford
Workmen in Mr. Marshall's timber-yard 0 6 0
Workmen in Belgrave-square
Mr. Penn, Lewisham
Thirteen. Men (R. Benham) 0 10 0
Tewkesby Radical Association 1 0 0
Oxford Radical Fund
Upon which the customary vote of thanks was passed to
the Chairman. The meeting then dissolved.

LEITH ELECTION.-" FINALITY."

On Thursday last, pursuant to public advertisement,
the electors of Leith met in the Trinity.houre, to hear
the Lord Advocate declare his political opinions, and
the grounds on which he claimed their suffrages.

Bailie Timm having taken the Chair. -
The LORD ADVOCATE addressed the meeting at
considerable length, explaining his opinions with refer-
ence to all the great political questions of the day. He
declared himself to be a disbeliever in the fact that any
statesman or body of statesmen could uphold any
such doctrines as " finality." No man, he said, ever
imagined that at no future time, no matter what
change of circumstances or of public opinion—no matter
whatever may be the effects of time and change—no
motter what may be found to be an actual failure in
the existing Constitution after a trial for a length
of time—that notwithstanding all this, that there
should be no amendment of the Reform Act,
as if this system of the Constitution should for ever
be " the be all and the end all." No one was ever
foolish enough to imagine that such was possible.
And how could it be so ? for it must be obvious to every
person of sense that the same moral force, the same pon er
of public opinion and of the country, agreed as to the ex-
tent of the evil, and unanimous as to the remedy, would
obtain, if necessary, another victory for the people.—
(Hear.) The Lord Advocate then stated that he had
not yet come to a determination as to whether
he should support the Ballot. He was not so satis-
fied with the arguments he had heard upon that subject,
as to say that the Ballot is the best and only means to
secure the freedom and purity of election ; but he pro-
mised that if the study of that question shall enable him
to come to a different opinion, or if there is no other
course to obviate the evil, he should have no objection
to yield. As regarded the Corn-laws, he expressed
himself in decided terms in favour of free trade.

Mr. CRAWFORD-Will you support a measure for
the extention of the franchise ?

The LORD ADYOCATZ-1. say that at present I am
not prepared to support such a measure. The 10/.
franchise has only been tried for seven years,
and you remember what prodigious interests were
touched, when that became the law of the
land. Surely the country is not to be involved every
seven years in revision and recast of a measure of such
immense magnitude. I want to try it longer, and after
these abuses are remedied—as I believe they can be
remedied—by means which would leave the principle of
that great measure entire and perfect.
Mr. JOHN CRAIG referred to his long acquaintance
with the Lord Advocate—to the classical acquirements
he displayed at an early age—his studious habits—his
knowledge of the constitution of the country, and, gene-
rally, his intimacy with the science of legislation ; and
concluded by moving that he was a fit and proper per-
son to represent the district in Parliament, which motion
was warmly responded to by the meeting.
The LORD ADVOCATE briefly returned thanks for
the reception he had met with, and expressed an anxious
hope that, if returned as their representative, he might
be able to show he deserved something of the too flat-
tering eulogium of his friend Mr. Craig.
Mr. GLEN JOHNSTON moved a vote of thanks to the
Chairman, and the meeting separated.
In the evening the Lord Advocate addressed a nume-
rous meeting at Newhaven. He was received there
also in the most enthusiastic manner. His speech and
answer to the different questions were well received,
and resolutions, similar to that adopted at Leith, une:ni-
mousiy agreed to.—Edinburgh Observer.
REPRESENTATION OF LEITH.—The Hon. James
Erskine Murray's address to the electors of Leith, as•
signing his reasons for not offerinh himself as a candi-
date at this time, reached us last night (Friday), but at
too late an hour for insertion in this number.—Scolsinan

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 29.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'Clock.

The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions
from tradesmen in London in favour of Mr. Hill's plan of
penny postage.
The Earl of BANDON presented a petition from the
county of Cork against the proposed plan of a Provincial
College, without the instruction being founded upon the
religion of the country. Also one from Bandon in favour
of Mr. Hill's plan of penny postage.
Lord PORTMAN presented a petition from the
Corporation of Gloucester to the same effict.
The Earl of HARD WICK E presented a petition
from Wisbeach, praying for an alteration in the manner of
licensing beer shops. He would take that opportunity of
asking the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, whether he
intended to proceed with his Bill upon the subject, and if ao
cc hen.

Lord BROUGHAM had been actually prevented from
proceeding with his Bill. He thought with the Noble
Duke opposite, that the initiati.m of such a measure
should be in the other House. A Noble Friend of his
in that House had given notice of a motion upon the
subject; but the measure be proposed was so ut-
terly inefficient, that it would be necessary for hifn to
precced with his Bill, and he begged leave to give notice
that he would move its second reading one day next week.

The Earl of HA RD WIC K E said' the law relative to
beer-shops certainly required alteration. He, as a
magistrate of the county of Cambridge, had con-
victed a beer-shop keeper—he used the printed form
of conviction which was used by every Magistrate in Eng-
land ; yet a clever attorney got hold of the case, and brought
an action against him ; the case was so full of difficulties,
that the Judge reserved points for the consideration of the
Court above ; and though that Court certainly had a
leaning in favour of Magistrates, still he was cast in heavy
damages, and mulcted of the expenses.
The Earl of RIPON presented petitions praying for
protection and encouragement to the Church iu Canada ;
also one from Leeds against any passage of letters through
the London post-office on the Sabbath.
Lord G L ENE LG presented several petitions in favour
of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan of penny postage.
Lord BRO UG HAM presented petitions from Dunferm-
line, Milgarvi, Kilpatrick, Monmouth, and Forfar, in favour
of Mr. Hill's plan of penny postage. Also petitions to the
same effect from Auchtermuchty, Islington, Walworth,
and Morpetk.

The Earl of RIPON gave notice that on Tuesday next
he would introduce a motion to their Lordships relative to

the removal, of certain officers of Malta. He would take

that opportunity of asking the Noble and Learned oppo-
site the nature of the motion he intended to submit to the
House to-morrow.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he intended to move an
address to the Crown praying that the ordinance might be
re-considered with a view to its alteration.

Lord H A RR INGTON presented a petition from Dum-
fries, in favour of Church Extension in Scotland.
The Bishop of LAN DAFF presented a petition pray-
ing for protection and encouragement to the Church in
Scotland.