The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-20 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION

Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no objection to the
ttion being considered on the 16th of April,
tbe could not consent to changing a Ballot-day al-

fixed.

CALLING OUT THE MILITIA.
An HON. MEMBER on the Opposition side of the
lions; to ask the Noble Lord, the Secretary for
the llemeDepartment, if there was any intention of calling
out the militia during the present year ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said at present there was no
such intention.
INTERFERENCE WITH THE PRIVILEGES
OF THE CITY OF LONDON.
Mr. LAW gave notice that on Friday. the 22d of
March, lie should move that Counsel be heard at the
Bar on the petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and
Commons of the City of London, against the Bill " for
further improving the Police in and near the Metro
polis" before the second reading of that Bill.
IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN CATTLE.
Mr. BANNERMAN postponed his motion touch-
ing the importation of foreign cattle.
. INDIA.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM gave notice that he would
on Thursday, the 28th of March, call the attention of
the House to the conduct of the British Government in
India.

POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL wished to ask the Noble
Lord at the head of the Home Department whether it
was his intention, at an early period, to introduce a Bill
liar amending the New Poor Law Act. He also wished
to know whether it was the intention of the Noble Lord
to lay on the table any general Regulations made by
the Poor-law Commissioners.
Lorl JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his inten-
tion in the course of a few days to lay on the table of
the House the Regulations to which the Hon. Baronet
ha•.l adverted. With regard to the other question he
had only to say that he did not think it would be in his
power to bring in a Bill with respect to the Poor law
Amendment Act very early, because there were other
Bills to be proceeded with ; but he might now say that
in any Bill he should introduce there would be no provi-
sion affecting parishes under Local Acts.
Colonel PERCEVAL wished to know from the
Noble Lord opposite how it had happened that certain
portions of the Commission directed in the late reign
with respect to railroads in Ireland had been omitted
in the Commission issued at the commencement of the
reign of her present Majesty ? He alluded to the
direction given to the Board of Works.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not aware that there
was any difference in the Commissions, because he had
directed that the same Commission should be renewed.
His intention, however, was to make the Report of the
former Commission the ground on which the Bill upon
the subject of railways in Ireland should be framed.
Lord SA NDON gave notice that to-morrow he
would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether
it was his intention to bring in any measure during the
present Session for the regulation of Joint Stock
Banks.

Lord INGESTRE, not seeing the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to ask whether any
Member of the Government would give the House any
explanation as to the cause of a bag of letters from
India being detained on its way through France?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not aware of the
circumstances, and could give no answer.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Mr. Gli ATTAN rose, pursuant to his notice, to
move for returns connected with the system of National
Education in Ireland. He complained that the Board
of Education had existed for eight years, and had spent
the sum of 264,0001. without having in the slightest
degree carried out the object for which it was esta-
blished. His opinion was that they were proceeding
upon a wrong principle altogether. They gave their aid
in such a niggardly manner that it was impossible they
ever could have a good school—they allowed only 81.
per annum to the master, which was totally inefficient
for any good purpose. The intention of the House
was to institute a united system of education, and to
exclude clergymen from any share in the management
of the schools ; in place of that there were 260 of
the schools established in nunneries, monasteries, and
chapels—(Hear, hear)—while there were no less than
360 clergymen receiving grants as patrons of schools.
Mr. Carlisle, the paid member of the Board—Mr.
Kennedy, whom all in that House knew, had both left
the Board. Mr. ---, the manager of the model
school, had also resigned. How was this ? He thought
he was entitled to ask the Noble Lord the cause of all
these changes. He did not intend to move the resolu-
tion of which he had given notice, because since then a
Report from the Board had been laid en the table of the
House, and they ought to have time to consider it. He
then moved for a series of returns, in order to show the
working of the system.
Mr. F. FRENCH seconded the motion.
Lord MORPETH did not know whether the speech
of his Hon. Friend was intended to damage the system
of national education in Ireland, and to stop its pro-
gress or not, but such attacks coming from a professed
riend t ) the system, were more fatal than if they came
from professed enemies. He was aware that different
fpartics in Ireland, as well as Members both from Eng-
land and Scotland, in that House, found fault with the
s- stein, but he would consider it sanctioned by the
House so long as it continued to give the grant which
it hail done to various Administrations. The Go-
vernment certainly intended to carry out the
intention with which the system was insti-
tuted, viz., a system of united education. He was aware
that many clergymen of the Established Church, that
some Presbyterians, and some of the Roman Catholics
lied denounced it. Ile was very sorry for this, for he
had been most desirous to have the united co-operation
of the clergy, of every denomination. The State was
most desirous to have a system of: united, universal
education.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The State was
desirous to place all the means it could at the
disposal of the Board, but it could not make the at-
tendance of parties compulsory.—(Hear.) He re-
joiced that it was so—while, at the same time
he was glad to assert that it placed the means of edu-
cation within the grasp of all parties. He was ready
to ad:nit that the system of united education had not
been completely successful, neither could it be said that
it had entirely failed. The Report of the Commissioner
who was connected with Ulster, and who had gone out
of his way to collect the statistics of the children of
the respective religious denominations who Lad at-
tended the schools in that province (for Government
had always disclaimed such inquiries, and the Commis-
sioners had ordinarily no data to go upon)—that Re-
port would show that there were 504 schools in the
province of Ulster, relative to 371 of which the
statistics of the children had been ascertained. At
31 of these, there were no Protestants ; at 40 there
were no Catholics, but there were 300 at which
children of both denominations were promiscuously
educated. The total number of Protestants at the
schools in Ulster, was 14,628 ; the total number of
Catholics was 22,453, which was a pretty fair pro-
portion, considering the relative numbers of the re-
ligious population of Ulster. The fact was, that
wherever the system had had fair play, and wherever
Protestants and Catholics had co-operated, it had
given satisfaction. He had in his hand a letter
from a clergyman of the county of Monaghan, which
contained a practical reply to the objections of Sergeant
Jackson the other night. The writer said that he had
already established four schools under the superintend-'
once of the Board, and with the co-operation of the Pro-
testant and Catholic Bishops. There were already one
thousand pupils in those schools, and the system worked
as well as could be expected in so short a time.—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord here read the regula-
tions, which were signed by the Roman Catholic
Bishop and Curate, and by the Protestant Rector
and Curate. Religious instruction was given every day
in hose schools to the younger pupils, while the elder
received lessons from the Douay or authorised version
of the Scriptures. On Saturday religious instruction
was given by the Clergyman of each denomination,
and upon other days the Clergy generally were
invited to attend, provided that they should give no-
tice of their visit. The fact was (proceeded the Noble
Lord) whenever the Catholics and Protestants had
united, and thus given fair play to the system, the best
results were experienced, and each religious division of
pupils received the religious instruction they required.
When co-operation took place the pupils received an
excellent system of education; when they did not co-
operate, a very good system of separate education.
which was the next best thing, was given. The Hon.
Gentleman complained that a lower class of schools than
was attended was patronised by the Board—he would
admit this, but the Board were now using their utmost
endeavours to be able to send forward the best class of
masters speedily. The Noble Lord then referred
to the new Report of the Commissioners, which
stated that the Board had taken a house near Dublin,
in which normal school pupils would be boarded and
lodged—that no master should be appointed unless
he had received a certificate from the clergyman of
his denomination.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord M.)
was glad to hear his Hon. Friend (Mr. Shaw) state that
he acquitted the Board of peculation or any design
towards it. He then proceeded to state that a system of
education which would include all classes,would be by far
the best. If the present system were susceptible of im-
provement, he should be most happy to see it improved.
He believed that it would do great good to Ireland, and
that the other classes had their interests mainly involved
in it. He believed that the happiness of the people of
Ireland was more deeply involved in the present system
than perhaps almost any other. He should, therefore,
agree to the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man except that part which referred to religion.
Nlr. SHAW would defer entering into any discus-
sion in detail until another opportunity, but he must
say that the system of united education had altogether
failed in giving satisfaction to any one class, whether
Catholic or Protestant. He was sure that to no consi-
derable extent would the children of both persuasions
be found together , but if the returns should not specify
the relative numbers. which he had specified, they would
bk for nothing.—( Hear.)
COLQUHOUN contended that the distinction