The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-16 00:00:00

what would be the benefit to the public of investigation into
the nature and management of the Duchy revenues if any im-
proved income which might result from it was to pass to the
Crown ? In his humble opinion, the Crown should depend
upon its hereditary revenues entirely, or else throw itself upon
its loyal Parliament, with full confidence that a fair provision
would be made for the maintenance of its dignity. He thought
the transaction was liable to no small suspicion. It was said
that the sum of 385,000/. was suFficient to maintaix the dignity
of the Crown, and that the hereditary revenues were equiva-
lent to that amount. Then why, be asked, should Parli anent
be called upon to vote that sum ? Again, he would be gial to
know whether, in the event of an Heir Apparent appearing to
claim the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall, Parliament
would be expected to supply the deficiency, which, if the
statement of the Government was correct, would then occur
in the Queen's income ? If the revenues of that Duchy were
neeelsary as a portion of the present settlement, it was ob-
vious that settlement would be inadequate upon their deduc-
tion. This was a matter he thought called for some expla-

nation.
Sir R. INGLIS thought the Rouse was bound to resist
some of the arguments laid down by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had promised
that Parliament should have au account of all the receipts of
these revenues. But it was nut an account that the Hon.
Member for Southwark wanted—it was the money. He con-
ceired that the Right Hon. Gentleman had by prcenising these
accounts conceded the principle that Parliament had a control
over them. If the Crown had an absolute right to the dispo-
sition of these revenues, why should it be made to render an
account of them ? If it had not, then the ground taken by the
Government was utterly untenable.
Mr. WARBURTON contended that it was expedient, not
only for the stke of the inhabitants of the Duchies, but for the
sake of the whole empire, that their management should be
transferred to the Woods and Forests. Ho saw no reason
whatever why the president Parliament had established ie its
Acts with regard to Church property, should not be applied
to the Duchy revenues.
Mr. B AINES should support the proposition of the Go-
vernment.
Mr. BROTH E RTON thought that if the public were to
have the trouble of improving the Duchy revenues, while all
the benefit was to go to the Crown, they would be losers, in-
stead of gainers by the transaction. What he s'iould propose
was, that in proportion a; the rentals of the Dachy estates
were increased there should be a deduction from the parlia-
mentary grant.
Mr. HARVEY said, that as a new question had been
brought before the House he should claim its indulgence for
a few moments. In his opinion, the Honourable Baronet the
Member for the University of Orford had raised the issue of
the question. They had heard much lately of " fine old Eng-
lish gentlemen ;"" for his part, he liked of all things to
hear a fine old English prerogative Member of Parka-
meat. —k Great laughter.) That Honourable Baronet had
hardily and at once stated that the revenues of these Duchies
were the private property of the Crown, and that Parlia-
ment would have no more right, and just as much, to break
open his iron chest and appropriate his money as to claim
these revenues. That was intelligible language, and he
quite believed him when he said that if he were mi-
nister, he would not incur the responsibility of proposing
the arrangement suggested by Government. Why, he
agreed with him. Ministers either went too far, or not far
enough. Thby were even dangling in their arms the reck-
less child of expediency.—(a laugh ;)—and, after seven years'
apprenticeship in the nursery, they were still nothing more
than wet-nurses. In this difficulty it was the duty of Mem-
bers of Parliament to interfere, and infuse a little healthy
nourishment into the bantling. The Hon. Member for Ox-
ford had termed the arrangement a bargain. It was so oa
one side. They were told that her Majesty was willing to
bring a munificent usufruct to the public Treasury, on condi-
tion of her receiving in return an equivalent, and no more.
Now, he appealed to the commercial Members of that House
to run an eye over the balance-sheet prodnced by the Govern-
ment, and see how both accounts met. On one side there is
no dispute—a solid sum in quarterly payments, and without
deductions, was to be handed over to her Majesty. On the
other hand there appeared the droits of the Admiralty, the
Four-and-a-half per Cent. duties, and other like items, form-
ing together a grand aggregate of princely munificence. Now
what was the total amount during six long years of
time, namely, during the reign of William the Fourth,
reported as received from these splendid sources of Royal
munificence ? Something less than 70,000/. From the
way the Report was drawn up—and the clever hand that
did it no doubt brought to bear every possible farthing
he could—it was ingeniously left to the imagination whether
the amount was 70,0001., or 70,0001. for the whole six years;
but the latter, in point of fact, represented the sum for the en-
tire period. But then it was said that this did not include the
revenue from the Woods and Forests. Now he had before
hire the Report from the Woods and Forests, and from it it
appeared that though there was a considerable revenue aris-
ing from that source, yet for the year to which the Report re-
ferred there was not a sum exceeding 5,0001. brought to the
public account. Would the House believe that, after giving
credit for all the rents that arose from the management of the
Royal parks, such was the expense of keeping teem that the
expense exceeded the receipt by 34,0001. a year? It had
been asked in the Committee by the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny—who, he was glad to perceive, notwithstanding all
these discussions, found time to take an uninterrupted nap—
(Loud laughter, in the eourse of which Mr. Hume exclaimed,
I was only thinking")—it had been asked by the Hon.
Member, if the proposed sum of 383,000/. was to be
deemed abundantly ample for every expense connected with
her Majesty's state? and he was replied to in the affirma-
tive. Now, he would ask the Right Honourable the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer one question—had the estimate of
383,0001. been made in the contemplation that her Majesty
was to derive the slightest advantage from the revenues of the
Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster? If lie could answer
this question in the affirmative, he, for one, would vote for any
addition to that sum of 385,0001. which should cover that
contemplated advantage. Therefore, whether few or whether
many went out with him, he should press his motion to a divi-
sion. And for this reason : they were told that if they did
not go on with the Bill that night the stern duties of Christ-
mas would interfere, and prevent it from receiving the Royal
fiat. It was clear, therefore, that unless the House inter-
posed at present, all pretence of interposing at a future period
would be sheer hypocrisy. He knew that there was little
sympathy in that House with the feelings of the people. If
the Right Hon. Baronet, end his adherents and eubseraient
tools were in power, they could not make a more uneonstitu-
II
tion proposition. While Ministers were professing to endea
your to stifle the Pension List, they were giving to the
Queen a grant exorbitantly large in its amount, but rendered
much more fearful by the patronage which would accrue
from it. They were about to place an instrument of per-
sonal power in the hands of the Crown, the consequences
of the exercise of which it was impossible for any man to
foresee. The principle of the measure was such that he
was convinced that if the Right Honourable the Chancellor
of the Exchequer were sitting on the Opposition instead
of on the Treasury Bench he would enter his most formal pro-
test against it. They were told that if the continuance in
office of the present Government were endangered, the march
of improvement would be endangered. The march of im-
provement I What improvement could be expected under a
Government ready to place this enormous revenue in the
hands of the Crown, without annexing to it any responsi-
bility ? He perfectly recollected, and he was sure the Right
Honourable Member for Tamworth, recollecting the effect
which the exercise of his temper produced on the occasion,
would confirm his statement, when an Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, afterwards Lord High Chancellor, declared it to
he the result of his deliberate judgment that these funds ought
to bemade available, if necessary, for public purposes. Lord
Althorp stated also that such was his impression. But what
was the use of an impression if that impression were not car-
ried into effect ? It had been stated that the reason why it
was not so was, that Ministers had misunderstood their Royal
Master He had no doubt whatever that if her Majesty's Mi-
nisters had only hinted to her that these revenues ought to be
placed at the disposal of Parliament, she would most readily
have complied with the suggession. He trusted he had
sufficiently shown the delusive character of the present
proposition. If the Crown conceded these mighty rights
as a boon, why not reject the Civil List, and let the
Crown resort to its own property ? Why take advan-
tage of her Majesty's tender years, and induce her to enter
into a compact so prejudicial to her By a paper which had
been laid on the table of the House, on the motion of the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Ox-
ford, it was made to appear that the proposed arrangement
would be greatly prejudicial to the Crown. He would nut
enter into particulars to show the delusive character of that
paper. The people did not want to obtain any advantages
from the Crown ; but they ought not to be cheated by a delu-
sion. All they were to obtain for the 3t35,0001. a-year which
they were about to grant to her Majesty was 12,0001. arising
from the hereditary revenues, and the revenue arising from
the Woods and Forests, which in no case could exceed 6,0001.
a_year ; and which was so shackled that it recently amounted
to only 5,0001. He had done his duty. He should take the
sense of the House on the present proposition.
The House then divided—
For the ameadment 52
Against it lB4
Majority 132

On our return to the Gallery, ewe found Mr. ATT WOOD
proposing another amendment, the nature of which we were
unable to collect, but which the Speaker stated was in.
admissible.
The House than resolved itself into the Committee.
The preamble of the Bill was postponed, and the first and
second clauses were agreed to.
On the CHAIRMAN reading the third clause, to the
effect that an annual sum of 385,0001. be granted to her
Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, &c.
Mr. FIUME would should shortly state his objections to
the vote. It was founded on the Civil List as stated in
1816, one of the most extravagant periods of modern times.
He did hope that the time had arrived when they should be
allowed to return to the quiet and less cxpeniive times that
existed before the commencement of the French war. This
was the feeling that animated the Members of the pre:ient Ad-
ministration when, in 1517, they pressed upon the then ex-
isting Government the appointment of the Finance Com-
mittee, which Committee, in its first report, recommended
that all the natThlishments of the State should, with as little
delay as possible, be reduced to the same scale as that upon
which they existed in 1792. The Hon. Gentleman then
quoted extracts from a number of treasury minutes, and from
the reports of Select Committees appointed under different
administrations from 1816 to 1831, for the purpose of show-
ing the str,ng, and ul-pnirrous opnion prayrilcd on all
sides, and with all parties, that all the establishments of the
country should be reduced to the same scale as in 1792.
But whilst the other establishments had been diminished