The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-08 00:00:00

Ireland ought to defend themselves by constitutional means ; and if
those means should fall, still he would not despair of the result. As
for the insults lavished upon Ireland, they must bewiped off with blood."
Now it was important that this was a mild report. He had seen
much stronger reports of that speech, but he had purposely selected
that of the paper which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was under-
stood to patronise. The Noble Lord opposite would, he hoped, for-
give him for quoting what followed. It was the "health of Lord
Morpeth, with three times three."—(Loud cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) The speech of the Right Rev. Dr. Nolan followed. He said
that he would venture to call O'Connell a man raised up by God
for the salvation of Ireland; and the Roman Catholic clergy prayed
God to bless him and direct his efforts. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman having quoted some expressions of his the other night,
with the object, as it seemed to him, of throwing dust in the eyes of
the Noble Lord, he should now request the attention of the House
to a letter of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, dated May 13, 1832,
to the effect that it was tits conscientious, unaltered, and unalterable
opinion, that Ireland would never prosper without a Repeal of the
Union. The letter went on to say that he (Mr. O'Connell) never was
and never would be content with less; to this he solemnly pledged I
himself. In January, 1833, he declared that he bad never sub-
mitted to emancipation, because he had never considered that
measure but as a means to an end—the Repeal of the
union. He had no.hesitation in saying that he would never consent to
enter into a compromise with any set of Ministers until he saw a Par-
liament sitting in College-green. But once let him sec the Union re-
pealed, and no foreign foe would dare to set his foot on the soil
of Ireland. Was then (said the Right Hon. Gentleman) the calling the
calling the people of Ireland aliens a fault never to be forgiven ; and
were the people of England to be branded as foreigners.— (hear, hear.)
Gentlemen on the other side might depend upon it, that the link com-
bining the Crowns of the two islands would speedily, on the present
system, be placed in the hands of a dictator—that golden link which he
firmly believed had received lustre from that day-spring on high, which
had shone, and hebelieved would ever shine on the true Protestant
faith, and it was that faith which had rendered England unrivalled
among the nations, and without which Ireland never would be blessed.
Lord CLEMENTS rose for the purpose of recalling the House to
the subject more immediately before it. On the present occasion the
Right Hon Gontleman had chosen to attribute to the National Associa-
tion all the dangerato which Ireland was exposed, forgetting the impu-
tations of partiality, as well as the other charges, which had been la-
vished on the present Government of Ireland by its opponents. The
thing tha' provoked lion. Gentlemen opposite was to find Ireland quiet
without their assistance. On this ground he would take his stand,
and say that Ireland was more quiet now than ever she had been under
the Whiteboy Acts, to which the Hon. and Learned Sergeant had re-
ferred. After a few remarks on the case of Mr. Cassidy, and on the
great disasters brought on the graziers of Ireland by the Tithe Compo-
sition Acts, the Noble Lord went on to defend the course adopted by
the National Association. In conerusion he would assure the House
that as a Protestant of Ireland, whose family resided in that country,
and as being connected with the Protestant interests,and as representing
a large Irish Protestant constituency, it was his firm conviction that he
shculd do wrong Vile did hot give his honest and cordial support to a
Government whose administration had given a greater degree of peace
to his country than that of any other Government that had presided
over it.—(Cheers.)
Mr; ROEBUCK rose amidst loud cheering. It seemed to him that,
standing as they did in the high character of the representatives of a
great nation, they ought to conduct their deliberations with that calm-
ness, soberness, and decorum, that would gain them the respect of all
reasonable end respectable men.—(hear, hear, and laughter.) It ap-
peared to him that the manner—he said it under all correction—that
the manner and toneof gentlemen, particularly belonging to Ireland,
I ad been tonight, and tonight was not a solitary instance of such a
nature—judging with the feelings of an Englishman who had not
mixed much with Irishmen—was likely to create anything but respect.
It could do no service to Anybody in that House or elsewhere, to in-
t:u'ge in a species—he was going to use a term, but he would not use
it, of " improper vituperation.”—(Laughter.) He thought he came
there to discuss a question respecting the Municipal•Corporetiens of
Ireland. He must, however, charge it somewhat (for he would be im-
partial) upon the Noble Lord himself for having introduced this very
general discussion. The Noble Lord would have consulted the best in.
terests of tl.e Government if he had allowed the attack to come from
the other party. Why should the Noble Lord have taken r.otice of
tiny resolutions that might have been passed by any Led), which were
not directly before the House ? Why Amid the llcuse go out of its
vay to notice resolutions that a small minority of the people had
thought proper to pass ? He thought, therefore, tie Nettle Lord
was semswhat to blame in this.— (hear, Lear.) At the sense time,
be mtnt aeknowlalge that thew was a temper and tone in the speech
I f the Nille Lord far dill( res t from what pervaded the speeches of
those who had succeeded him. 11. e Hen. and Learned Sergeant
1 ad accused the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny Of has ing
used certain expressions, at various times, cf a very violent nature, and
therefore that House was to legislate for Ireland in a manner ditlerent
farm what it end for any other part cf tile empire. The argument
of the Learned Sergeant was, that because the Hers and Leaseed
:el- mtg r for Kilkenny had been violent, toile, coarse, in the epi-
thets he had ereploeed in his language, they were therefore to deny to
the people of Irelend—(Loud cheers;—there municipal rights alreacly
given to Ergialtel and Scotland. lie wanted to know, if he were in the
mime satiation as the Teeple of Ireland, what he should think of any man
cemirg into this House and desiring the whole Commons of England tr
determine that he should be deprived of his municipal righte—
r eh's that were requisite for his happiness and contentment
through life—upon the aesertion of the Right Hon. Recorder
alai Leaned Sergeant, that there wzs a Learned Gentleman it
this House wl.o bed indulged, the greater part of his life, in vio.
hnt expr: ssions, . and given vent at various times to very varioes:
s pinions ?—(hear) Now, supposing that the Hon. and Learned Mire
'or f,r Kakenny had done what he (Mr. Roebuck) charged every pcti.
t cal man that he had ever heard of, either in Ireland or Englund, with
sloina—that of never eraitely and completely stating the whole of his
ie.tentions ; for he made it a charge against political men genes ally that
they were advocates, that they stated only one side of the question, and
were cons'antly saying to-day what they meant to unsay to-mot row.—
(Bear, hear, from the Opposition.) lie heard Gentlemen on the other
cede of the House cheer, as if they were free from the imputation.—
(/ aughter.) Good God! He could, if the time were fitting, go threugh
lat. life of every political man that he saw open that bench, and show
that et et y one of them had been inconsistent with their own aeclara-
t cna. But supposing all this, and that tie same charge was justly
n Lela :g iinst the Hou. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, was that a
valid argument to tell his (Mr. Roebuck's) constituents that he had en-
/n avcured to persuade the Commons of England to deprive them of
their political rights ? Suppose, by wry of illustration; the Bight
lien Barcnet the Member for Tamworth had ever changed his opinions
—, Laughter)—or that the Right Hon. Baronet the Member fur Cum-
berland had changed his opinions—(Renewed laughter)—or that the
Noble Lord who sat bet wem those two Right Honourable Baronets had
ellanged his opinions—;Continued laughter)—suppose all these ex
traordinary things, would that, he asked, atter having passed the
Refoins Bill, juatfy him in saying to the House of Commons," Here are
three di tinguished men in the Government of the country, who have
most distinctly said aye to-day and no to-morrow, and therefore I call
epon ! ou not to give to the people of England the power of governing
themselves or their Mnnicipal Corporations.—(louderies of Hear, hear.)'
He waisted to know what the people of England would say to that
species of argument ? He could not tell what the pecple of Ireland
wou d think. It had been said to-night by two Learned Gentlemen on
the other side of the House, who represented, as they declared, a large
body of the Irish people, that the people of Ireland were unfit for
municipal corporations. If they were unfit for municipal corporations,
he could only say that it was because they were so much like those two
Hon. and Learned Gentlemen. But he wished to lay it down as a
general ruse, that the people of Ireland and people of England, and the
peop'e of Scotland, were all equally worthy of the right and the
the duty of self-government,—(Loud cheers) The Hon. and
Learned Sergeant had said that this was the first time that argument
had been used, and that it was first stated by the Noble Lord who opened
this debate. Why, so far from that being the case, the very same
argument was made the ground, and the only ground, of i pposition to
the measure of last year. It wai most distinctly stated by the Noble
Lord, the Member for Lancashire.
Lord STANLEY—I never stated anything of the kind.
Mi. ROEBUCK begged the Noble Lord's pardon; he did not wish to
impute to the Noble Lord anything which he had not said, but, as
far as his recollection went, he could assert that he had heard
the Noble Lord state distinctly in this House, that the people of Ireland
were in that condition, that they were separated into parties by their
peculiar religious feelings, that they could not be entrusted with muni-
cipal corporate rights.—(Cheers.) That was the whole tenor of the
argumentation of the other side of the House. It was on that ground
that they sought to cut down, to spoil and ruin, the measure in this
Ifouseby piecemeal. They took that course in order to persuade his
Majesty's Ministers ; and its passing he would state that he thought his
Majesty's Ministers were too easily persuaded by that side of the House
to cut down that Bill, on the ground and understanding which was
always put forward by them, that there were peculiarities in the Irish
people that unfitted them for self government.—(Cheers.) That was
the fair way of stating the argument.—(Hear, hear.) Now he wished
to call the attention of both sides of the House, more particularly the at-
tention of the Liberal Members, to this fact, that the Hon. Members
opposite distinctly stated in opposition to them that the people of
Ireland were not worthy of self.government. That was their prim
ciple.—(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition, and " Hear, hear,"
f.om the Ministerial benches) .Ay, but it was so. He wished
to state the naked truth, but even the naked truth of their own opinions
pas not agreeable to them. So apt were they to dress them up, that
os hen they came in an unadorned shape before them, they could not re..
etlenise them as their own. Now he would assert that the principle
upon which he and those on his side of the House went was, that the
pool ,le of Ireland were not distinguishable from the people of England
or of Scotland, and that they were fitted for self-government. These
principles were as light and darkness. As they approached nearer to-
wards the one, so they receded from the other ; and he entreated his
Majesty's Ministers not to lend too easy an ear to the suggestions that
raight be brought forward by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the
House, to militate against the great principle which had been to-night
recognized by the speech of the Noble Lord. He must say it had given
him great pleasure to hear all those principles with which he com-
menced and ended his speech. But there was. a lurking suspicion,
a doubt, a hesitation in his mind that those wide and sometimes vague
generalities were accompanied with a fatal tendency to listen to the
suggestions coming from parties who on this question were wholly irre-
concilable opponents, that attempts would be made to conciliate those
who could not be conciliated—(hear, hear)—and that for the purpose of
pleasing Hon. Gentlemen opposite, the House would be called upon to
cut down, alter, mutilate, ruin, and utterly destroy the value of this
Bill. He thought this had been too much the case last year ; and he
was sorry to hear that the Noble Lord had not enlarged his Bill—that
he had not embraced within it the whole of the Irish people, and so have
gained, by one grand stroke, their hearts. their wishes, and their sup-
port—(Cheers)—and hadArusted to the good sense of England and of
Scotland for maintaining him and his colleagues in that position in which
they now stood, based as they then would have been upon a great and
glorious principle of legislation.—(loud cheers.) What he wanted
them to do was to carry out the great principles of self-government,
and not to yield one jot to the gentlemen opposite, who declared
that the people of Ireland were not worthy of self-government.—
(hear, hear.) If the Ministers must listen to suggestions, he would
just hint that they should listen to the suggestionis of their friends,
and
not
of their enemies.— ;loud cheers, and laughter.) He was,
however, too well grounded by experience in stating this his hesitation
and doubts, which he did openly. He feared there was too great a
leaning on their part to listen- to the suggestion from the opposite
hi aches, while they turned a deaf ear and a cold shouler to their
friends. lie begged to press it on their minds, if wishedtheiyia Ito con_
those Ministers, that this great principle of theirs me to that the
People were worthy of selogcwernment was their' —main stay and sup_
Port—(hear, hear)—and that every step they made in carrying out that
great and glorious principle of legislation, was a step to enure and
strengthen their own power, and that every s
single. inch which' they
yielded to false and dangerous suggestions coming from the opposite
bench weakened their dominion,destroying the confidence people in them.—(Cheers.) He byshed
the
them to understand, and he
wished the people of England
issue with
understand, that the two parties
in the State were 110 W at i,,ttliii„rtettssihecetit
thatto the whole Irish
people, upon the principle which distinguished
the Honourable Gentlemen opposite belongs 1:1'131 ltioe would
of England.
van the real democracy England.--{hear from
opposite party declared that the people were not awro'rtatinyd oeflieseerlfs.)gov.:rhne.
Iris.los.lAhrl_trly declared that they were. They were at issue upon
N .f..,ANit liestio - Ireland—that, however, was but one great instance of
-WO Ms, &status of the two contending principles. The Irish mun'
j.--esipsld..eet_Ctlesette:' . ere the subject matter, but the principle of demo_l-•.:1-:„...,..1.re)*,11,ite f•VVO really involved. —( I cud cheers., Ever, di gges-
-7' il:Ajae:,,..etOesy.essilts. came from the other side ef the tiotoe would
Z''rolatoiole"ifsn'llWatto,e,rit. Ire to tieetroy the peokble's political righ, ; es er,
c
</.,;i'' ' : iiply.;:o,er t sought to be listened to. With r4uti,,,, He ~„et,.l
~•se
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