The Sun.
London, England, 1837-06-03 00:00:00

which he bad consented to produce were laid upon the
table of the House, the Noble Lord would have an oppor-
tunity of seeing the grounds on which the opinion of his
Majesty's Government had been formed.
Mr. MACLEAN wished to know from the Noble Lord.
whether it was his intention, when he laid those papers on
the table, to enter into any explanations with regard to the
progress which Russia was making in the East?
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped, as he had applied for the pro-
shit:Aim) of the papers, that the Bon. Gentleman would
allow him to bri.ig the subject of Russian influence in the
East forwird. lie thought that the Gentlemen on his side
of the House were as well able to discuss the subjet as the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Lord PA LMERSTON said that all he meant to do
was to lay the papers on the table of the House ; but ;t
was not his intention to make any motion.—(A laugh.)
Mr. MACLEAN said that, as time pressed, he hoped
the Noble Lord would give as little delay as potsible to the
production of those papers.
Lord PALMERSTON—As soon as they are prepared
they shall be laid on the table of the House ; certainly no
li.mccessary delay shall be given.
POOR LAWS (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then resolved itself into Committee on the
Poor Law (Ireland) Bill, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
The Otith clause having been put,
Mr. 'BARRON said that by this clause no more than
12 acres of land could be attached td any workhouse, and
he conceived Pitch a limitation to be objectionable, and
therefore wished a discretionary power on the subject to be
vested in the hands of the Commissioners. Landlords in
Ireland were indifferent towards their tenantry, and did not
bestow the same attention on improvements that they did in
this country. On this account that which would be a good
argument in this country respecting this plan, would have a
very different effect in Ireland. The Honourable Member
concluded by moving an amendment, to the effect of au-
thorising the Commissioners to increase—accord..' to cir-
cumstances—the quantity of land to be attached to c_ach

workhouse.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no obection to yield to the
amendment of the Honourable Member. Whilst he made
this acquiescence in the propositions of the Honourable
Member, he wished to be understood as being averse from
the Commissioners becoming the general employers of la-
.bour in Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL recommenled that the land at-
tached t. each workhouse should not exceed twenty acres.
He trusted that no attempt would be made in Ireland to
make pauper labour profitable.
Mr. LYNCH concurred with the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny, but thought the power of the Commissioners ought
to be exended to fifty acres.
Mr. O'BRIEN trusted that the Noble Lord would not
concur in any amendment that would have the effect of li-
miting the power of the Commissioners as respected the
quantity of land.
Mr. LEN NARD thought the amendment vicious in
principle.
Mr. HUME would be very sorry if the Noble Lord
consented to allow the Commissioners to occupy land be-
yond a limited extent. He objected to mixing up Irish
absenteeism with the question of Irish poor-laws. He did
not believe that absenteeism produced as much evil as was
represented. He thought the example of the Netherlands
ought to teach the Noble Lord the impolicy of giving to
the Commissioners the power sought to be given to them
by this amendment.
Mr. P. SCROPE wished to know what was the nature
of any ultimate plan of emigration that might be contem-
plated, or whether such was contemplated?
Colonel JONES said that instead.of making the quantity
of land more than it was at present it ought to be made
less. It could not be intended to make labour in the work-
houses productive, and on that account he did not see the
use of increasing the quantity of land.
Mr. O'CONNELL concurred in the opinion of the
Hon. and 'Gallant Member. He trusted the Noble Lord
would re-consider his decision. The operation on the pro-
posed amendment would be highly injurious.
Mr. BARRON said that his proposition seemed to be
completely misunderstood and perverted. He merely
meant that it would be judicious to give the Commissioners
the lower of employing the two or three hundred labourers
in the workhouse in reclaiming the lands surrounding the
building. The experiment might be commenced on a small
scale if approved of. He did not desire to make the Com-
missioners the employers of the whole nation. He merely
meant that the men relieved should make some return for
the assistance given them. He must repeat it—he only
desired to allow the Commissioners the power, if they
deamed proper of employing the persons whom they assisted.
Mr. S. CRA WFORD said that the clause gave un-
limited power to the Commissioners to build workhouses,
without, however, giving ont-of-door relief. This was
not the assistance that the poor of Ireland required. He
maintained that no poor law could be of utility which did
not react on the landlords, and force them to give employ-
ment to the great mass of the people.
Mr. BERNAL here called to the recollection of the
Hon. Member that he was wandering from the point under
consideration.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD should, after the clause was dis-
posed of, move, as an amendment, that out-of-door relief
was necessary for the poor of Ireland.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Hon. Member for
Waterfor4 seemed to desire that the experiment of giving
a certain power to the Commissioners of increasing the
land attached to each workhouse should be tried. He
could assure the House that wherever the experiment had
been tried in England it had totally failed. He was of
opinion that 12 acres, the quantity assigned to each work-
house in Ireland, was amply sufficient, and he should op-
pose any amendment for giving a discretional power to the
Commissioners.

Mr. RICHARDS felt it his duty to oppose the
amendment.

Lord J. RUSSELL thought it better to leive the
clause as it stood at first.
Mr. BARRON declared it to be his intention to divide
the House.

The Gallery was then cleared, and there appeared—
For the clause
For the amendment 3
Majority

Mr. RICHARDS was of opinion that the workhouse
system Would not be a proper test in Ireland of the extent
of destitution. The Hon. Member proposed as an amend-
ment, that workhouses should be built within every eight
miles square for the relief of the destitute poor, but that
no able-bodied paupers should be permitted to lodge within
the walls.

Mr. LUCAS trusted the Committee would not sanction
a proposition so fraught with mischief as that of the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough. The result of its adoption
would be to make morality cheap and easy.—(Hear.)
. Mr. O'CONNELL would make Dublin-the test of a
general and compulsory provision for eight millions of
people. The population of Dublin was 240,000, and the
Mendicity Association expended about 9,0001. per annum.
What would be the amount in this standard of calculation
of provision for the pauperism of eight millions ? But then
this was not the entire, for the expenditure on the poor of
Dublin by Government grants, by the bounty of other vo-
luntary institutions, by collections amongst the various con-
gregations, raised the amount expended on pauperism in
Dublin to upwards of 100,0001. As to the plan of the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough, it was a novel one in-.
deed. Why, the Hon. Gentleman seemed as if he intended
to convert the workhouses into a species of club, where the
paupers went to breakfast, and dine, and might then go out
to pass the evening.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman,
amongst other provisions for his club, ought to have inclu-
ded the morning papers.—(Renewed laughter.) It was
ludicrous to have the time of the Committee occupied in
discussing such idle and futile propositions.
• Mr. RICHARDS did not envy the feelings of one who
could treat so lightly, and in such a strain. the poverty and
distress of his poorer countrymen. It ill became the Hon.
and Learned Member for Kilkenny, seeing the source from
whence he derived his income—(" Oh, oh," from the Minis-
terial benches)—to give way to merriment upon such a sub-
ject.—(" Oh, oh.") He would not be beaten down by the
assumptive tone which the Hon. and Learned Member as-
sumed in that House—(" Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh")—a
tone and manner which excited the indignation and scorn of
the country.—(Confusion, cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter,
mingled with cries of " Order.") The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had dared to speak of and act towards him in a
manner which he would not have ventured upon, had he not
been under the protection of some vow.
• Mr. D. BROWN rose to order. The Hon. Gentleman
was certainly exceeding the usual Parliamentary language.
Mr. RICHARDS (lid not feel that lie went beyond
what the language and bearing used towards him warranted,
but he would submit to the decision of the Speaker.
The SPEAKER said that. the language of the Hon. '
Gentleman was not Parliamentary.
Mr. RICHARDS, on being so informed, would, of
course, retract it. He then referred to a speech made by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, in 1828, in
which the Hon. and Learned Member, then an advocate
for a compulsory Poor-rate, said that, though he was for-
merly opposed to such a measure, he now saw its necessity,
and he would adfocate the cause with all the ardour of a
renegade, ati:l that no man could be a Christian who did
riot advocate the measure.—(Cheers and laughter.) Yet
now the Hon. Member was always talking of voluntary
charity, and about drying up the sources of itidiOdual
bounty. Was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman now to
be looked upon in the light of a double-distilled renegade?
—(Laughter.) Notwithstanding what had been so fairly
and temperately urged by the Hon. Member for Monaghan
his (Mr. Richards's) opinion had not been altered.
• Lord J. RUSSELL deprecated any discussion as to the