The Sun.
London, England, 1830-04-03 00:00:00

AFeAIRS OF GREECE.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the House, on its rising, do adjourn till Monday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I shall take this opportunity,

Sir, to put a tpleation to tire Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite respecta; our foreign policy. In the, gracious
speech deliver,•; to us from the Throne, we were informed
that certain neg; tiations were then pending relative to the
independence of Greece, and that when these negotiations
were completed, Parliament should be informed, and the
papers relative to them should be laid before the House.
Since that time a speech of the King of France has ap-
peared in the public papers, in which his most Christian
Majesty informs his two Chambers that those negotiations
have been brought to a close, and that a Prince has been
chosen to preside over the destinies of Greece. Though
his name was not mentioned, it is generally understood
that Prince Leopold of Saxe Coburg is the Prince selected.
A choice more calculated to secure the happiness of
Greece, and its stable connexion 'with the rest of Europe,
could not easily be made.—(Hear.)—This annunciation
on the part of the King of France makes me anxious to
inquire of his Majesty's Ministers whether, now that those
negotiations have come to a conclusion, the time has not
arrived when they can advise his Majesty to place the
papers relating to them before Parliament. As to what
these papers may contain, it would be presumptuous in
me, who Lave not seen them, to give any opinion. But I
cannot help calling the attention of Parliament to this sub-
ject, which, as well- as the rest of our foreign
affairs, appears to me to receive too little of our at-
tention at the present moment.—(Hear, bear.)--I
am fully aware of the importance of many of the
domestic questions which press at present upon us, but
I recollect that the most important of them all—the pres-
sure of the debt and the taxation of the country upon its
resources and productive industry—is to be attributed to
a course of foreign policy which I deem to have been er-
roneous, but which, whether it was so or not, had at any
rate the effect of laying this empire under difficulties from
which it will require all its utmost efforts to escape...—
(I.lear, hear.) Therefore it is that lam anxious to be en-
abled to form an opinion on the foreign policy of the country
at this juncture ; and the country, by paying attention to
these papers, will be enabled to decide whether the Govern-
ment has, in the negotiations which it has been conducting
for the two lastyears on this subject, pursued a courseat once
pacific and calculated to maintain the national character.
I am the more anxious to obtain the papers connected with
these negotiations, owing to a few words which accidentally
dropped from a Right Hon. Gentleman on the discussion
of the Navy Estimates. It appeared from his expressions,
that in July the atmosphere was quite clear, but that in
August a sudden change took place in the appearance of the
horizon, and we were on the eve of a war. If that war
had taken place for the purpose of pr tecting Turkey from
the attack of Russia, I feel confident that the flames of that
war would have extended to every nation in Europe, and
that we should have been well delivered from them at an
expense of an addition of 300,000,0001. to our debt. It is
on this account that I am so anxious to ascertain the con-
duct of our Government, and to learn what was the apparent
necessity—it would be difficult to find a real necessity._
which brought us so near to the commencement of a war. I
am bound in candour to confess that I have a great distrust
of the policy of the present Ministers towards foreign States.
As to my distrust of their policy towards Portugal, it is
founded upon reasons which I have stated to the House,
and which I shall be ready to support again whenever the
Right Hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House
shall bring forward the motion of which he has given no-
tice respecting their conduct at Terceira. As to the ques-
tion of their policy with regard to the two recently-con-
flicting powers of Russia and Turkey, my impression is
now certainly unfavourable to them ; but I will not pro-
nounce an opinion upon it, as the impression under which
I now labour may be changed by the production of the pa-
pers. I say this, because the non-production of them
forms one of the most important grounds of icy distrust.
As •to their management of our domestic affairs, I feel
bound to say that there appears to me to be in it more of
economy and less of corruption than I have seen in the
management of any Ministry which has governed this
country for a length of time. In such a line of conduct as
they are pursuing in the internal administration of the
country, I am ready to give them all the support in my
power. The foreign policy of the Government rests on
grounds certainly very different from its domestic policy.
With respect to the latter, there appears little ground for
opposition; but as regards the foreign policy adopted by
Ministers, I cannot view it with the same degree of con-
fidence. lam fully persuaded that there are many gen-
tlemen in the House who feel a distrust similar to my own
on this subject; and under these circumstances I hope the
Right Hon. Secretary will be able to inform us that the

papers relative to the negotiations will soon be laid before
the House, in order that Parliament may be enabled to
form an opinion upon the matter. If, however, the nego-
tiations have not been concluded, although the King of
France states in his speech to the Chambers that they are,
and if difficulties and embarrassments still surround the
subject, of course the Hight Hon. Gentleman will be un-
able (consistently with his public duty) to produce the pa-
pers now required till those difficulties and embarrassments
shall have come to an end. But if the matter is set at
rest, and the negotiation really concluded, I hope he will
see the propriety of producing the papers, and affording
the requisite information.

Mr: PEEL—I can assure the Noble Lord (and Ide
so with the utintst sincerity), that his Majesty's Govern-
ment feel the greatest anxiety to present to Parliament the
papers to which he has referred relative to the late nego-
ciations on the subject of the future condition of Greece,
at as early a period as they can possibly be presented con-
sistently with the permanent interests of this country, and the
welfare of that State which it has been our object to pro-
mote in the course of these negociations. I have the sa-

tisfaction to state, that the several parties to the Treaty of
the 6th of July, 1827, have come to a resolution with re-
spect to the future government of Greece, and its projected
relations with other Powers, which has met with the un-
animous approbation of all the parties to the Treaty, and
that the most perfect and entire accord exists between

them as to the selection of the Prince to whom it is pro-
posed to confide the future sovereignty of Greece; on
these main points relative to the future government of
Greece, its condition, which the Allied Powers wish to be
perfectly independent, and tile selection of the Prince to
whom the sovereignty of the country is to be committed,
—with respect to all these matters, I am happy to he able
to say, that the three parties to the Treaty of the 6th of
July have acted with entire concert, and the most cordial
co-operation. This concert and harmony existed from
the beginning, and remains uninterrupted up to the pre-
sent moment : it is entire and complete. The negotia-
tion may be considered as concluded,—as far as the mate-
rial points are concerned it is ; but. there are some points
of a subordinate nature in relation to which negociations
are still pending ; and, such being the case, while negoci-
ations at all connected with the subject ire in progress,
the Noble Lord will doubtless concur with me in thinking
that it would not be consistent with the usual practice in
such cases, and might not be for the public interest, that
the papers should he produced. However, I may here
observe, that at no very remote period I hope and expect I
shall receive his Majesty's commands to produce the
papers, and lay tha information required on the table of the
House. I ran assure the Noble Lord, that at the
very earliest period which can be selected for the pur-
pose, consistently with the termination of the negoeia-
tioas, with the welfare of Greece, and with the interests
of this country, shall the Noble Lord and the House be
furnished with the information, so as to afford them an
opportunity of forming a proper judgment on the subject.
The Noble Lord has stated that he approves of the do-
mestic policy of the Government, but views with distrust
and suspicion the course adopted by Ministers with regard
to our relations with foreign powers. I must be allowed
to say, that I cannot help hoping that the distrust and sus-
picion of the Noble Lord merely arises from this circum-
stance,—namely, that with regard to the foreign policy of
the country there does not exist that opportunity of asking
and affording the same direct and immediate explanations
as with regard to measures of domestic policy. With re-
gard to measures of domestic policy our course is clear and
unembarrassed, and there exist nightly !opportunities of
offering explanations on the subject of particular measures ;
and, no doubt, it is on the ground of these explanations
that the Noble Lord and others give us their confidence,
Nor do I trust if there are any points of foreign policy,
with respect to which it is not in our power to offer im-
mediate explanations '(and it will be admitted that this
must frequently be the case),—l do trust that the House
will suspend its judgment, and not come to a hasty con-
elusion upon these matters, or go the length of withdraw-
ing its confidence front Government till the opportunity
shall have occurred of offering those full explanations
which we are anxiously waiting to give. When we are
placed in a situation to give those explanations, I entertain
a confident opinion that the judgment of the House will be
in favour of the foreign as well as of the domestic poicy
adopted by Ministers, and that it will then be seen, that
throughout the whole. of very difficult and complicated
transactions with various powers, we have attained our
ends not by any sacrifice of the permanent:interests of this
country, or, What must always be equally dear to us, of
our high character and honour as a nation.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL-1 wish to ask the Right
lion. Gent. whether the points still undetermined and to
be raised are between the Allies and Greece, or between
them and the Ottoman Porte ?
Mr. PEEL-....The pending negociations involve certain
points as between the Prince to whom the sovereignty 01
Greece has been offered and the Allies. The-negociations

between this country and the two other Powers parties to
the treaty of the 6th of July have been concluded ; but as
I have already stated, there are negociations pending be.
tween the Prince referred to and the three Powers.
After the intervention of some extraneous matter, which
will he found reported btlow,
Mr. PEEL again rose and said—l wish to notice one
part of the Noble Lord's observations, which is rather im-
portant, and to which my attention has been just directed.
The Noble Lord said, that from something which had
passed in the House, on the subject of the naval estimates,
on a former occasion, he was led to infer that we had been
on the verge of a war in the course of the last autumn. I
don't know what it was that induced the Noble Lord to
draw that inference, and certainly I am not at all disposed
to acquiesce in the correctness of the inference, whatever
may have given rise to it. lam not aware that we were
on the verge of a war in August last, still less on the verge
of a war for th 6 purpose of protecting Turkey against
Russia, as the Noble Lord appears to imagine.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The ground of my inference was
this—the Right Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty was
understood to have stated in the course of a discussion
which took place on the Navy Estimates relative to the
state of the naval hospital at Malta, the establishment of
which was augmented between the months of July and
August, that it was considered necessary to send out orders
to that effect, as there was an apprehension that the fleet
in the Mediterranean would be fitted out. It was in re-
ference to this that I said I supposed this country had been
on the verge of a war in August. The statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman was not contradicted, and as it
agreed with other rumours which I heard to the effect that
Russia bad been informed by us last summer, that if she
persisted in the blockade of the Dardanelles, war would
be declared against her by this country, the natural infer-
ence was, that we had been on the verge of a war last
autumn. It may be that these rumours are perfectly un-
founded. Such, however, does not yet very clearly ap-
appear to be the fact ; but when the papers which I am
desirous of having, come before the House, the necessary
information with respect to those transactions will be ob-
tained, and we shall see how the matter stands.
Sir G. COCKBURN— The Noble Lord appears to
have misapprehended what fell from my Right Han.
Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty, and he has cer-
tainly mis-stated the Right Hon. Gentleman's observa-
tion. My Right Hon. Friend said it was necessary to
prepare for the contingency of events, there being a larger
force in the Mediterranean in August than in July. Of
course an increased naval force required an augmentation
to the hospital establishment, but nothing was said by the
Right Hon. Secretary which could afford room for an in-
ference that the country had been " on the verge of war."
Mr. HUME—The statement was, that this was a case
of emergency which warranted the Admiralty i❑ ventur-
ing to increase the expence of the particular item in ques-
tion even without the sanction of the House. I can as-

sure centlemen opposite, that among persons sitting on
this side of the House the impression created, not only by
what tell from the Secretary of the Admiralty, but by the
observations of another Right Hon. Gentleman, now in
his place, was that such a danger as that described did
exist last August.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I stated
that applications were made to increase the establishment
of the Naval Hospital at Malta beyond its amount, when
there were only 6,000 men in the Mediterranean, because
circumstances had induced Government to raise that force

to 8,000 men ; and such being the case, they necessarily
required a more extensive establishment, and an augmen-
tation was made to the Naval Hospital.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY—I entirely acquit the Right
Hon. Gentleman of having given any ground for supposing
that a war was impending inAugust ; but from what fell

from the Secretary to the Admiralty, I must say that the
strong impression upon my mind at the time was, not only
that it was likely that the hospital would be called into
action to a greater extent than usual by reason of the aug-
mentation of force in the Mediterranean, but that it had
been necessary to provide for the contingency of having a
certain number of wounded men to take care of; and it
struck me at the time as being rather extraordinary that a
communication so important as I considered that to be,
should have come from a gentleman not in the Cabinet.
Lord HOWICK—The exact words made use of on such
an occasion are important; and I believe I can state them
pretty accurately. The Right Hon. Secretary said, that in
the month of July the Lords of the Admiralty thought no
increase in the hospital at Malta would be necessary ; but
that in August, there being a prospect of the fleet being
called into immediate action, it was requisite to augment
the hospital.

Sir G. COCKBURN—It was stated that in July there
was no intention of augmenting the establishment ; but
that in August an increase having taken place in the Me-
diterranean fleet instead of a decrease, it was necessary to
augment the hospital. Nine sail of the line were upon
the station ; it was impossible to tell what might be the
result, but he did not say there bud been a probability of
war.

The conversation dropped here, and the motion for the
adjournment of the House at its rising till Monday was
agreed to.
SUPPLY.—REPORT.—CIVIL CONTINGENCIES.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having
moved the order of the day for receiving the report of the
Committee of supply_
Cllr. P. THOMSON said, it had been his intention to
take an early opportunity of calling the attention of the
House to the important subject of the collection of the
revenue. His own wish was, that a Committee should
be appointed to inquire into the extraordinary amount of
charge of collection. However, he understood that Go-
vernment intended to make an inquiry into the subject
themselves. If this were confirmed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, he should feel disposed to wait till
the result of that inquiry was known. He now asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer if steps were to be takes by
Ministers for the formation of a commission to investigate
the matter, and if such were the
.case, whether we might
expect any report or information on the subject before the
close of toe session.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER flattered
himself that he could give a satisfactory answer to the
Hon. Member's question. On the night of the budget he
had intimated that it was the intention of Government to
have two commissions—one to inquire into our colonial
expenditure, the other to investigate the collection of the
revenue. The Commissioners would shortly commence
their labours, and he had no doubt, that before the period
mentioned by the Hon. Member they would have advanced
so far as to be enabled to lay some information on the sub-
ject before the House.

- Mr. W. SMITH called the attention of the Secretary
for the Colonies to the propriety of procuring certain re-
turns connected (we believe) with the number of death■
in the colonies.

Sir G. MURRAY observed, that in his opinion the re-
turns would be productive of no public advantage. How-
ever, the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had a motion rela-
tive to Sierra Leone standing for a future day, and the
Hon. Member for Norwich might take that opportunity of
mentioning the subject again.
Mr. Alderman NV AITHMAN rose to present a petition
from certain ship-owners, but was interrupted by the
laughter of several Hon. Gentlemen, and the SPEAXER
having informed him that there was another question be-
fore the House, the Hon. Alderman sat down.

The report was brought up by Sir A. GRANT.
The resolution granting the sum of 100,000/. to his
Majesty towards defraying the civil contigencies for the
year 1830 having been read,
A conversation took place between the CHANCELLOR of
the EXCHEQUER and Mr. HUME as to the course to be
pursued with respect to the Estimates, which was not
very distinctly heard in the gallery ; but the result ap-
peared to be, that a vote on account was to be taken on
the civil contingencies to-night, that the Ordnance esti-
mates were then to be proceeded with and got through be-.
fore Easter, and that the remaining estimates (miscella-
neous, Irish, contingencies, &c.) should stand over till after
the recess.

The resolul ion was agreed to.
COMMITTEE OF.SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE ESTI-

MATES.

The Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into
a Committee of. Supply war, read.

Some observations were made by Mr. BERNAL upo❑
the inconvenience of bring forward public business before
Members had presented petitions, which they came down
day after day for the purpose of laying before the House,
but without success.

The SPEAKER having left the Chair,
Mr. PERCEVAL moved that a sum not exceeding
5,9373/. be granted to his Majesty to defray the salaries of
Iyo
Clerksohvicain4d Officers in the Ordnance Establishments at

Mr. HUME expressed his regret that Ministers per-
sisted in keeping up an establi4iment so disproportionate
to the wants of the country as that of the ordnance, and
complained of the plan of keeping IT two civil establish-
ments connected with that branch of service, one of them
at Pall-mall and the other at the Tower. He should he

aarefd(ins‘%i':iktl:awe
saving
very little expense,
—lad; 1;;;;;;hat possible inconvenience could occur from
rgemoving the clerks from the Tower to Pall-mall ? It could
t any
i; teroot7rbslee,
g would be
made. Besides, it was important that all the Members of
any department should he together, since it materially tended
,b,ell;)::ebx,vti,t,hkoi
no

to facilitate the transaction of businesef On this ground,
he did think, even leaving the important question of eco-
rnloemrkys ouuntdoefr sti gh
eh ts,atml aet
riot
nwtas pHreo pc:l.o
ltdo I,l4.sair en
not bee
as eu
cause
fferent
what-
ever for laying out 60,000/. or 70,000/. per annum on a
department which in 1797 only required 18,000/. or
19,0001. Neither could he conceive why the Govern-
ment should manifest so much reluctance to accede to the
recommendation of the Committee, which had inquired
into all the facts.
Mr. PERCEVAL said, the Hun. Member for Aberdeen
had undoubtedly gone into a variety of details, and had
made a very rambling statement, hut still there was no-
thing in his speech which warranted a condemnation of
the present system. He had compared the seen now re-
quired to defray the expense of the Ordnance Department
with the sum voted in 1797 ; but surely he ought to be
aware, from his knowledge of those estimates, that the
service of the present day was greatly increased, winos
compared with the servieeof 1796-7. That was a ground,
therefore, on which censure could not, with justice, be
founded. The duty at the present time was increased,.,
it was trebled ; and he would ask, could those who were
at the head of the department prevent it from being so
increased? His Right Hon. Frieed, who had been, ex-
amined before the Finance Committee, clearly proved, by
his evidence, how great the additional duty hail been ; and
lie had distinctly shown that much improvement had been
made in the public service generally, in consequence of va-
rious duties which had been handed over to the Ordnance
Department. He would maintain, that there was, in
reality, a very considerable saving on the sum voted
for the minor services which had been so much com-
plained of. The Hon. Gentleman had compared the ser-
vices and expence of the Ordnance with thew of the
Navy ; but the comparison was net, for many reasons,
a fair one ; and it should set be forgotton that a good
deal of the naval service was thrown on the hands of the
Ordnance. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the duties of
the chief clerk in the office of the Surveyor-General.
That individual had been is the service for 50 years; his
exertions had been most meritorious; his salary was not
more than commensurate with kis labours; and, on his re-
tirement, his allowance would be reduced to 900/. With
respect to the propriety of removing front the Tower to
Pall-mall, he had theu a paper before him which contained
the result of inquiries made upon that point, and the con-
viction of the individuals examined was, that no saving
would accrue from adopting such a measure. Without a
large building the business could not be transacted. If
the Hon. Member would allow them to build to the right
and left of the Ordnance-office in Pall-mall, they could
then snake a proper place for transacting the business in ;
bat if that were dona, he feared that the Hon. Member
would not be very ready to pronounce an eulogium on
them. It was proved before the Finance Committee that
the expellee of the buildings at present was about 1,6001.
a-year ; but if the suggestion of the Hon. Gentleman were
attended to, it would, he believed, he necessary to increase
the expence.
Mr. P. THOMSON complained of the number of
clerks employed in the Surveyor-General's department, at
salaries varying from 400/. to 6601. per annum. He
could not conceive how 47 clerks could be wanted in that
situation.
Mr. LENNARD said, that the whole question was of
expence, and lie wished to know whether, with a due
regard to economy, the whole business could not be con-
veniently performed with a reduced number of clerks, at
reduced salaries ?
Mr. W. L. MABERLY was of opinion, that it was in
every respect improper, that two establishinews, which
should be under
.one roof, were thus divided, the one
transacting business at Pall-mall, the other at the Tower.
He looked upon the question as one of principle, which re-
spected the mode of conducting public business, rather
than of economy, though that was also a matter of great
importance. The reason why opposition was eiven to the
so-often-called-for alteration was, that if it were carried
into effect, a number of individuals would lose their official
residences, both at the Tower and in Pal-mall.

Sir H. FANE accounted for the employment of f,rty-
,
seven clerks in the Surveyor-General's DepArtrn,nt, by
adverting to the great variety of business which had been
transferred to that department. Leaking to the vatious
duties which were to be performed, forty-seven clerks were
not too much ; and be could assure the House that all of
them were occupied. With respect to the Chief Clerk in
his (Sir H. Fane's) office, his salary was not too great.
There was not a more meritorious officer in the service.
He had been fifty years in the present situation, and his
labours had been extremely beneficial to the public.
Mr. HUME said, he knew many gallant general officers
who did not receive one-third of what the individual al-
luded to was paid annually. It therefore appeared to him
that the merits of this gentleman were either very much
overrated, or the services of those gallant officers were
greatly underrated. He wished to know how many clerks
there were in Pall-mall, and how loony in the Tower ?
Sir H. FANE said there were no clerks at Pall-mall,
the clerks were all at the Tower. He believed that the
office at the Tower suited the purpose admirably, and the
office at Pall-mall. was, on the contrary, unit for the
transaction of extensive business. There was only ono
officer (the Secretary to the Board) who resided there.
Mr. HUM E—Then I would say, as there is no accom-
modation at Pall-mall, let any person who is connected
with the Ordnance Department, and who resides in Pen-
man, go to the Tower.—(A laugh.)
Mr. PERCEVAL stated, that if the clerks were re-
moved from the Tower to Pall-mall, the charge for com-
pensation, &c. would create a much greater expence than
was incurred by the present system.

Colonel SIBTHORPE said it was Lis intention, itot
having understood that the votes on the salaries of several
clerks had been passed, to have divided the House on al-
most every one of them. He thought, in the present
state of things, and looking to the great and growing dis-
tress of the times, that these clerks wore too well paid.
when their remuneration was compared with that of the
really hard-working classes of society. Therefore it was
his wish to divide the House on these votes. There was no
less than 44,138/. voted to clerks, certainly not to men
the whole of whom did actual duty. Here was one clerk
with 1,100/. a-year, another with 1,000/. a-year, whose
duties were performed by deputy clerks. They drove
about in their carriages, and indulged in every species of
luxury, while the people were in a state of most deplorable
distress. Here was 1,1001. a-year voted to one clerk—
one would suppose a private clerk, for he was never heard
of at all—and he bad also pei haps half-pay. When he
contrasted his situation with that of an unfortunate wretch
who was sent out to Sierra Leone on 901. a-year, he could
not avoid reprobating so unjust and unfair a system.
Sir H. HARDINGE contended that Mr. Angel, who
filled the situation of chief clerk in the Surveyor-General's
Office, did not receive one-tenth part of the money which
he had saves! to the public. He had, it was true, 1,1001.
a-year, but he had served the public for more than 50
years.

&Colonel SIBTHORPE—I do not question the abilities
of those clerks, but I say that the rate of salaries, looking
to the existing state of the country, and considering the
remuneration which other classes receive, is too much.
And if my own brother were includes( amongst those
clerks, still I would make the same observation.

Colonel TRENCH said, he could bear testimony to the
merits of those individuals. There never was a more
admirable or efficient body of officers.
Colonel TRENCH spoke in support of the vote.
Mr. LENNARD wished to see the higher officers re-
duced, rather than the inferior clerks. He was sorry that
the suggestions of the Finance Committee, respecting the
department at Pall-mall, were not adopted.
Mr. MABERLY reiterated his opinion as to the pro-
priety of removing the establishment.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that if they were now
considering a plan for the accommodation of the depart-
ment, there cou4 not be two ()pinions as to the advantage
of uniting them; but as there were two places, the.ques-
tiou was, whether an expense of 20,0001. or 30,0001.
should be incurred; in pulling down and building again,
to obtain a saying of perhaps 4001. or 500/. a-year in a
junior clerk or two.

Mr. HUME asked for some explanation as to the su
of 14,000/ for the ordnance department of Dublin.
Colonel PEEL complained of the inconsistency of those
who opposed this vote. He had been rrepared to heat a
ettse of great hardship made out.

Some conversation then took place, respecting the
salaries of Sallie of the officers, between Mr. P. 'Tuom-
SON, Mr. PZACEVAL, and Sir. H. HARDINGI.
Mr. HUME repeated his question respecting the enor-
mous establishment 01'14,000/. at Dublin.
Mr PERCEVAL said that the establishment had very
ex ti‘einrs.i
ud duties, s
0,
hainede t ae atrog
et
hceo 11: e t respond.enti:nenoefean inspector of
gunpowder. He resided at Faversham, the Board in
Pall-mall, and the establishment at toe Tower. As there
was no gunpowder making, what was meant by a super-
intendent of gunpowder ?
Mr. PERCEVAL said, that it had been determined to
do away with that office, and it would not be long before
it was abolished.

The resolution was then agreed to.
On the next vote of 87,4641. for the salaries of the seve-
ral civil establishment. of the Office of Ordnance at home
and abroad, a convereation took place between Mr. HOME,
Sir J. WAOTTESLXY, awl Mr. MAIMALY, v the vee part,

who objected to the consolidation of the home, Irish, and
foreign stations in one item ; and Mr. PERCEVAL, and Sir
H. flAzorstog, on the other part, who urged that the
vote was conformable to the usual practice, except that the
barracks had beea included, in compliance with a sugges-
tion of the Hon. Member for Callington.
Mr. PERCEVAL separated the barrack officers, and
proposed a vote for 46,0761. for the salaries of the Ord-
nance stations at home and abroad.

Mr. HUME proposed, as an amendment, to take only
the home stations, the ♦ote for which was 17,432/.
On the original question being put,
Mr. LAWLEY agreed with Mr. Hume that the mode
he hail proposed was the most convenient. The Hon.
Member proceeded then to show the impolitic mode pur-
sued by the Government in procuring powder and muskets,
which ought to be obtained by contract with individuals,
instead of the present mode. He read some calculations
as to the comparative profit and loss of the two modes,
showing that the public sustained a loss of some thousands.
The low tone of voice in which the Hon. Member read
these statements prevented them being understood in the
gallery. He should move for returns which would de-
monstrate to the House the great loss which accrued to
the public from the Government taking the manufacture
of arms into their own hands, arid which would also tes-
tify the soundness of that principle of political economy
which sought for the best remedy against the effects of
combinatio❑ in the competition of capitalists, as well as to
the best certainty of a sufficient surplus. The manufac-
turers at Birmingham were far from seeking the possession
of a monopoly when they complained of Ministers recom-
mending the Enfield manufactory to the East India Com-
pany for the arms required by that Company as a violation
of the principle of fair competition. All they asked was
fair play—that is, that no obstruction should he placed in
the way of the legitimate exercise of their skill and labour.
To assist them in attaining that desirable end, he should
move, as an amendment on the amendment of the Hon.
Member for Montrose, that the resolution be still further
reduced to 16,7781. (The original resolution stood for
46,760/. Mr. Hume's amendment reduced that sum to
17,432/. Mr. Lawley's to that last mentioned.)
Mr. PERCEVAL contended, iu opposition to the Hon.
Member who had just addressed the Committee, that
unless Ministers took the manufacture of arms into their
own hands, they could not not count on the requisite sup-
ply in the event of a war. This want of supply was very
much felt in the late war, in the commencement of which
Government had to purchase arms in Hamburg and other
foreign markets at very high prices, so as to induce them
to establish the means of supply for themselves at Enfield.
The consequence of Government's thus taking the manu-
facture of arms into their own hands was, contrary to the
statements of Hon. Members, a great reduction of price of
not less than 98,6581. in the manufacture of 1,246,259
barrels, since 1812. This was a stubborn fact, the recon-
cilement of which with the theoretical dogmas of political
economists, he left to the adepts in that branch of philo-
sophy. It had been asked why did not Ministers leave
the supply to competition, which, it was added, would
ensure cheapness as well as excellence? The answer was,
that arias were a peculiar manufacture, the demand for
which depended so touch in contingencies that no regular
outlay of capital could be expected on it.
Mr. LITTLETON hoped the Committee would support
the amendment, and thereby express his approbation of the
erroneous, and unjustifiable, and most extravagant policy
pursued by the Government with respect to the supply of
an article which should he left to the free competition of
skill and capital. When the Hon. Member the Secretary
to the Ordnance attempted to justify that policy by the
fact that the price of arms had fallen since 1812, the date
of the Government establishment at Enfield, he seemed to
forget the far greater fall of prices which had taken place
within the same period in all kinds of manufactures and
articles of commerce. Had the supply of arms been, as
it ought to be, left to competition, their price would be
much lower, and the public be considerably a gainer.
This would appear the more manifest if the price of com-
modities now, as compared with that in 1790, be consi-
dered. Bolt-locks, to take one manufacture in the iron
trade for an example, which sold in 1790 for 2s. 6d., were
DOW sold wholesale for I id. and so with other articles.
Then, as to supply, the fact that one manufacturer alone
threw off a musket a minute during a war demand, ren-
dered a formal refutation of the Hon. Secretary for the
Ordnance's argument on that score unnecessary.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON supported the amend-
ment, as be objected to the interference of Government
with private manufacturers.
Mr. SIABERLY said, that Government would always
find it better to depend on public competition for what
they wonted, than to manufacture on their own account.
Mr. WHITMORE entirely concurred in the opinion of
his Hon. Friend.
Sir H. HARDINGE said there were only four articles
manufactured by the Government, and these chiefly with
a view of putting down that competition which, during
the war, had raised prices upon the Treasury.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY said, that this plan of pre-
vesting combination would be ineffectual, as on a sudden
emergency of war, the workmen would themselves combine
against their employers in these Government factories.
After a few words from Sir R. FERGUSSON, Mr. Donn-
DALE, and Mr. Hunt=, the Committee divided, when the
numbers were—
For the original ►notion BO
For the amendment 4O
Majority 4O
On our return to the gallery we found Sir 11. GRANT
putting the question that a sum, not exceeding 17,4321.,
be granted to his Majesty for defraying the salaries of the
civil establishments of the ordnance on home stations dur-
ing the present year.—Agreed to.
The next vote was, " data sum, not exceeding 28,7441.,
be granted to his Majesty for defraying the salaries of the
civil establishments of the ordnance is Ireland during 1830."
Mr. JEPHSON inquired whether the offices of naval
end ordnance Storekeepers in the neighbourhood of Cork
might not be consolidated.
Mr. PERCEVAL replied, that such a consolidation
would be impossible, as the duties of the respective offices
were essentially different.
Mr. HUME saw no reason why stores of all kinds
might net be kept by the same person, provided only the
premises would permit. The Finance Committee had re-
commended the principle of consolidation.
Sir H. HARDINGE denied that the Finance Com-
mittee bad come to any definitive resolution on the subject.
Mr. MARERLY admitted that they had not, but re-
minded the Gallant Officer that they recommended the re-
ductions of stations generally.
After some controversy relative to the distance of the
station of Ballycorrig from Cork, the vete was agreed to.
It was then proposed and agreed to that a sum not ex-
ceeding 41,3881. Ise granted to his Majesty to defray the
salaries of the Barrack-Masters and Serjeants at home,
abroad, and in Ireland.
A sum, not exceeding 5,390/., was proposed and agreed
to be granted to his Majesty, to defray the salaries of master
gunners in Great Britain, Guernsey, Jersey, and in Ireland.
The report was then brought up and ordered to be re-
ceived on Monday next.