The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-02 00:00:00

rishing Dublin, in place of having one hundred manu- had been brought forward at a very improperly late period
factoring establishments, had now only fifteen. He of the Session, and he hoped
.that a. period would. arrive
when there would be a full and fair discussion of the ques-
would only further remind Gentlemen that the question
before the House was for the continuance of an odious tion, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer would show
why the Charter of the Bank of Ireland should be re-
monopoly. That was not a question of free banking—
Hewed, which hitherto he had not done—and moreover
not a question of one pound notes—but the real ques- prove how the abolition of the monopoly could produce
tion was whether one single bank should have the power those over issues of which the Right Hon. Gentleman was
of issuing paper money to any amount it pleased. He so fond of exciting the apprehensions of the House.—
must protest against the principle, and he would feel it (Hear, hear.) It was quite proper that Joint-stock Banks
to be his duty to divide the House upon every stage of should be placed under all necessary regulations. But
the Bill. the principle should be carried to its legitimate extent, and
should be taken of the central bank of
WOOD said he should vote withissue. the
Mr. A. YATES agreed in what had fallen from the
equal T
Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin, and l‘lr. careT.
Hon. Member for Dublin, bat he wished to correct some
would vote along with him. The sooner the
errors which he always heard and lamented on discussions of
Charter of the Bank of Ireland expired he thought
this nature.—( A laugh.) He often heard the phrase banking
the better, as it would force on the consideration of a
money used—as applied to what he considered the phrase
better system of banking for this country. The conse- it had no correct application—viz., paper not issued by the
quences of a pernicious and unlimited paper system Government or the Bank of England as a legal tender.
were now but too apparent in America at the present If a person issued a note or bond on mortgage, whether it
moment ; and in France, so great was the horror of was for 10,000/., 1,0001., or 11. it was but an acknow-
the people at paper money, that, except in the environs ledgment of debt. It was not the issue of paper money.
of Paris, there was none in circulation in the country. The distinction was important ; whatever regulations should
He saw no reason why the whole debt to the Bank of law
Ireland applied to the latter, every individual had the right by
Ireland should not be placed upon the Three-arid-a-
to get into debt—( Laughter)—and of course it followed that
Half per Cents., which were now at par. Nor did he see
he should have the right of issuing acknowledgments of debt,
and hence it necessarily resulted that nothing should
how a termination being put to the Charter of the
prevent the transfer of these acknowledgments to second,
Bank of Ireland should cause a run for gold. The third, and fourth parties. He contended, therefore, that
Hon. Gentleman quoted some figures, and compared the House had no right to interfere with the issue of such
the Joint-stock Banks in Scotland with those of Eng- acknowledgments as Joint-stock Bank notes. For it was
land, but in so low a tone of voice as to render it im- an error to suppose that a bill of exchange, or a promissory
impossible to follow him. note was more essentially paper money when payable on
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER demand, than when payable twelve months after date.
would confine himself strictly to the new matter which In Lancashire for 60 years there had been no circulation
had been introduced that evening, as he was unwill- of cash
it untilbut
the a comparatively
habits
o f
the recent
PLltineo
dt..
they
ing to trespass longer upon the time of the lawallowedreferredbills at three months to cash notes;Peop everything dey-
House than was absolutely necessary. The Ho- Preferred
upon the habits of the people, and bills at three or
nourable Member wished to separate the trade of a ?
tweive months were as much paper money as any other.
banker who did not issue money from the prerogative There was another error into which the Right Hon. Gen-
of a banker who issued promissory notes. He (the tleman had fallen ; he said the Joint-stock Banks should
Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that a most de- have curtailed the issues. Ho had attributed the panic
sireable thing, and the nearer they came to a central of 1825 to the error, as the was pleased to call it, in this
bank the nearer would they come to such a system. respect, and said that if the banks had curtailed the issues
He did not deny that there were many inconvenien- in 1823, the panic of 1820 would never have happened.
cies connected with Joint-stock Banks, but he did not If they had done so, then the panic would have happened in
1824, instead of in 1825; the prosperity of 1823, 1824,
stock principle.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was, he be-
on that account undervalue the a lication of the joint-
pp
and 1825 was entirely owing to the issue of notes. The
Right Hon. Gent. should recollect the distress of 1820,
lieved, the safest principle on which banking could be
which Lord Castlereagh had declared to be a monetary
carried on. The cases of abuse which had occurred, so distress, to remedy which he bad brought in five monetary
far from shaking the confidence of the public, confirmed measures in one day ; and Lord Castlereagh was right, for
the principle of Joint-stock Banks, if well regulated.— if he had not adopted some such measure as this no Go.
(Hear.) It would be a great misfortune if the share- vernment could have existed in England much longer. The
holders were to withdraw their capital from these banks panic of 1825 was not owing to the issue of one pound notes.
and the public were to withdraw their confidence. The Lord Liverpool well knew that panic was owing to his
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell) own laws, but he wanted a scape-goat, and he fixed upon
had enquired as to the amount of the capital. All the the unfortunate country bankers. He said they had de-
accounts which could be rendered on this subject had lu g e dthea
countryere t
icreating
with theseut.
s to oneek
3at, poundk s notes,w h l
e a nil de so s
ahr
i d
been laid on the table, but if the Hon. Member wished
sweeatu about
would be more prudent Joint-stock ident and more oWerful. They had
for any details he should be happy to furnish them. In
them in Scotland and in America, and why should they
the Report on Joint-stock Banks, in 1837, he would find not have them in England? These Joint-stock Banks had
the amount of the Bank of Ireland capital, and the been instituted for one object and had accomplished ano-
debt between them and the Government. The first ther. As an old banker he was glad to see them insti-
debt contracted in 1783 amounted to 600,0001. Irish tuted, because he knew they would bring a large mass of
currency. wealth, and of experience, and of confidence, and of cre-
Mr. O'CONNELL had not asked for the amount, but dit to the uses of industry. They had done so, and by
what what was to be done with it now. these means labour had been kept alive. One bank had
The CHANCELLOIZ of the EXCHEQUER would advanced 800,0001. to two manufacturing. houses in Lan-
state the amount and the period of payment, and then cashire, and that had all been expended in the wages of
what was to be done as to the repayment. The 600,000/ labour. Having been proposed in this country they had
to which he had just referred, was to be repaid on the been proposed in Ireland, and he thought if a Joint-stock
Corporation being dissolved. In 1797 the sum of Bank was proper Ety miles from Dublin, it was equally
500,000/. was advanced, to be repaid at the same time. proper in Dublin itself; if it was proper in Birmingham
In 1808, 1,250,0001. was advanced, to be repaid at the dis- it must be equally proper in London. There should be
solution of the Corporation, or at the pleasure of the Go- no line of demarcation. They tended to support the ne-
vernment, on six months being given. In le2l there were tion under the pressure of those laws which the Chancellor
advanced 500,0001., to be paid on the Ist January, 138 of the Exchequer supported, but which the nation would not
The Hon. Member had suggested that he (the Chancellor be able to support much longer. This measure of 1819
of the Exchequer) might have dealt with this on cheaper had ruined the country banks of Ireland—in the course of
terms than he could at present; but he thought the debt 1820, 1521, and 1892, 50 out of 58 Irish banks had stopped
could not be paid off on better terms than those which he payment, and they were ruined not only in money but in cha-
nowproposed. In round numbers he would assume they were ratter, and denounced as swindlers, when it was the effect of
paying 4,1 per cent. He proposed to reduce this debt at that law, and that law alone, which no one had ever ex-
once to 3i per cent. ; and if the Honourable Member pected to see passed. In 1825, the English bankers were
thought he could obtain 3.000,000/. on lower terms, denounced in the same way—they hal been forced to stop
he entertained a very different opinion of the state payment in consequence of the ruinous effects of this law,
of the money market from that which he (the upwards sixty of them had paid 20s. in the pound, and
Chancellor of the Exchequer) entertained, and it none had paid so little as 10s.—( Hear, hear.) If they
was very doubtful whether better terms could have been ob- could brine- back England to the state she was in
tained at a previous time. The Hon. Member had stated that in 1609, then it might do to have a metallic standard,
some offer had been made as to the payment of the debt, but that burden which Mr. Pitt had found too grievous to
but he was not conscious of any such offer. He wished to he borne in 1797, could not be borne now. As to over-
bring this question forward fairly, and hail not withheld issue, it was impossible that any bankers could issue more
from the Bank of Ireland any censure which he thought than the necessities of their neighbours and the country re-
its conduct justly deserved. It was utterly impossible, quired, because if they did, it would be returned on their
with a view to the safe management of these banks, that hands, and would also affect their credit. He should cer-
it could be effected in any other way than by a central tainly support the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member
agency, unfettered wholly by any local circulation of its for Dublin.
own, as he had proved when the subject was formerly Mr. ELLIS (of Newry), thought the proposed advan-
before the House. The Hon. Member had said that the tages might be bought at too high a price. In his opi-
decay of certain branches of trade in Dublin was a proof nion it would be better to bring in a short Money Bill to
of the mischief of the Bank of Ireland, but it was to be settle matters for the present year, and the whole question
traced altogether to other sources. Other causes might might receive proper consideration next year.
account for the alteration of the postage than those alluded Mr. CRIPPS wished he could convince the lion. Mem-
to by the Hun. and Learned Member, because the change ber for Birmingham, that the re-issuing of one-pound
which had taken place in the mode of charging letters had notes would be as injurious to the best interests of the
lessened the revenue in one place and increased it in ano- country as the suppression of them had been at the time.
ther. He now wished to call the attention of the House That was his opinion.
to the present state of the proceedings. He was now Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The House
asking to introduce a Bill, and if he was not allowed to do divided, when there appeared—
so the monopoly would be continued, and Joint-stock For the motion 6l
Banks would be refused those privileges which were essen- Against it
tial to their prosperity. As it was impossible to alter the Majority
state of the banking law in England till 1844, the same On our re-admission we found
duration ought to be given to the privileges of the Bank Mr. O'CONNELL, addressing the House—He corn
of Ireland, in order that they might then be placed on the piained that he had received no satisfactory answer to the
same footing. On these grounds he trusted the House questions he had put. He had been shown no reason why
would see no objectiou to agree to the resolutions. the Bills should be pressed now, or why they should not
In answer to an observation of Mr. O'CONNELL, have been brought forward earlier in the Session. Ile
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said would feel it to be his duty to divide the House upon every
if the resolutions were passed by a large majority, he possible occasion on the question.
should instantly communicate them to the Governor and The Resolutions having been read over and agreed to,
Company of the Bank of Ireland, and as soon as a Bill was The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
introduced he should also lay it before them, requesting to for leave to bring in a Bill founded upon the Resolutions.
know if they assented to it, which he had every confidence Mr. O'CONNELL—It is my duty, Sir, to divide the
they would. House upon that question.
Mr. A. YATES wished to explain why he could not Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The House
vote for the Bill ; because he considered that it would be divided, when there appeared—
time enough when the Charter of the Bank of Ireland ex- For the motion . 68
pined in the next Session to settle the whole system of Against it l6
banking—revising the Joint Stock Bank circulation. Majority
Mr. GISBORNE agreed in scarcely any of the prin- ADMIRALTY COURT BILL.
ciples which had been laid down as to banking by the Right On our re-admission, we found the House in Committee
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but he felt it on the Admiralty Court Bill, and
would be highly inconvenient to enter into that discussion Mr. WILLIAMS complaining of the addition to be
at the present period.---( Hear.) He would, therefore, made to the salary of the Judge, as being much out of
rather learn from the Right Hon. Gentleman what future proportion to his duties. Lord Stowell was the Judge in that
opportunity there would be of having that discussion. As Court for a period of 15 years of peace,when the emoluments
the Right Hon. Gentleman wished the Bill to circulate were the same as now, and he asked no increase of salary,
in Ireland, previous to the second reading, in order to although his influence with the Government was such,
ascertain the feelings of the people concerning it, con- that it would not have been opposed. Sir Christopher
sidering it was now the month of August, when did the Robinson left one of the most lucrative practices at the
Right Hon. Gentleman expect the second reading to bar to fil the situation, (as did Sir John Nichol,) and he
come on ? The Charter of the Bank of England would should like to know why the present judge required a
expire in four years. Who could doubt that it would be higher salary than had been paid for the last 24 years.
renewed? The Bank would only have to get up a kind This was one of the many acts of extravagance brought
of panic, just when the Charter expired, and the Chan- forward by the present Government, which was altogether
cellor of the Exchequer, for the time being. would renew uncalled for, and he was sure if the Right Hon. Baronet
it. Now he (Mr. Gisborne) should like to attack those opposite ( Sir R. Peel) were in office, he would object to
two enemies—for enemies he considered them—the any such increase. There was another clause providing a
Banks of England and Ireland, separately. He should retired allowance of 2,0001. a year, to which he decidedly
like to kill the little viper first, that he might be the better objected. He thought a salary of 3,0001. a year amply
able to manage the large serpent afterwards.—( A laugh.) sufficient for an individual who could perform the duties of
He should object to any renewal of the Bank Charter at this office, as well as the duties of Judge in the Consistory
all.—( Hear, hear.) He was now for the first time an Court of London and the Consistory Court of Rochester,
Irish Member, and when ha saw a Bill introduced for im- and therefore moved as an amendment, that the salary be
posing a monopoly on his constituents, he could not 3,0001. instead of 4,0001.
see why any terms should be observed towards it. Mr. C. IN OOD said that the emoluments of Lord
He considered that almost per fas et nefas —it Stowell during the war were nearer 7,0001. than anything
0, ,ill the
thethe secondHiil
at
was allowable to resist it, by all the means else, and in now fixing the salary at a regular sum, it was
which Parliamentary forms permitted. He should vote deemed necessary to take into consideration that circum-
with his Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin, reserving stance. Besides there was a considerable amount of
principlesbusi-
hreisadoinpgin,ioanndasdetcolathrienghisntheesrsefaedred,eddidtonetthtehindkuttiheise
soaflartyheteeLelaarrgnee.d Judge. He,
intentionof bankingto opp
every stage. Mr. WALLACE believed the Judge was not required
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said he was incapable of a fat- to do much duty during the year, and the only argument
tious opposition, but he considered it most improper to urged for this increase was that the Learned Judge's pre-
press this Bill at a period of the Session when the Irish decessor had enjoyed large emoluments during the war.
Members generally had left, seeing that five-sixths of But we were not now going to war, and it would be a suffi-
those Irish Members even who supported the Govern- cient answer to that argument to propose an increase of
ment were opposed to the Bill, and he thought he should salary when war actually took place.—(Hear, hear.)
be justified in throwing every difficulty in the way of its There were plenty of individuals well qualified for the of-
proceeding. But he wished to appeal to the Chancellor of flee, who would perform the duties for 3,0001, a year, and
the Exchequer whether there could not be a compromise he should therefore support the amendment.
effected, on the suggestion of the Learned Member for Sir J. GRAHAM said that Sir John Nichol had rocom-
Dublin (who on this subject was certainly disinterested mended that the appointment of Judges to these
enough, as he more regarded the interests of his consti- Courts should be permanent, and when asked what
tuents than his bank)—that the exclusive circle should be salary he would suggest, he said 3,0001. a-year.
only 20 miles around Dublin. On those terms he should —(Hear, hear.) The amount of fees received by
withdraw his opposition to the Bill. the Judges of the two Courts, was 6,0001. a-year, the abo-
Mr. HUTTON said he was reluctant to agree with lition of which he recommended, in order that a regular
the principle of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, salary might be substituted. He ( Sir J. Graham) agreed
which went to abolish the exclusive: privileges of the as to the propriety of giving adequate remuneration to a
Bank of Ireland. He thought those exclusive privileges, Judge occupying so high a station as the Judge of the Ad-
as to the issuing of notes, less objectionable than would miralty Court ; but he should wish to know why the evi-
the allowing of an unlimited issue of notes. Still he had dente of Sir J. Nichol on the subject had been laid aside ?
many and strong objections to the provisions of the Bill. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the opinion
But he wished to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Sir John Nichol, though entitled to great respect,
the opportunity of bringing in the Bill, hoping that it was, after all, but the opinion of an individual;
would prove satisfactory, and reserving to hiraself the right another important question was, not the number of days
of opposing the details should they not appear satisfactory, during which the Judge would be occupied, but the class
Mr. CLAY said it would certainly be very inconve- of the profession from which it was proper to select to
client to discuss the general principles of banking now, it high a judicial officer.—(Hear, hear, hear.) And if
‘ld indeed,be useless in a House like the present it were found, as be believed it would, that the pro-
hare:aeoe ,
the y forty Members). As to Bank of England,
(e , , : Iqualifiedwere those who made annually
he per y persons . .
Kof an imputation of absolute imbe- 5,0001., 6,000/., or 7,000/. by the profession, it was no
mutt incur the risk
answer to say
avowing' his conviction that the duties were not very extensive.—
cility front his Hon. Friend the Member for Carlow, by
• that the Bank of England would (Hear, hear.) Certainly in time of peace, the business
never get i
renewed on the present terms. He transacted in these Courts was comparatively slight.
believed mien were; completely .
ts Deaner
convinced of the necessity of But he knew that the professional gentlemen practising
a calm, full, and de'iberate inquiry into the principles on there did not obtain their chief emoluments in these Courts;
s.
which the monetary system of
the country should be regu- and this he could state of the Right Hon. and Learned
.
1 dthat the resultof
believed
lated.—( Hear.) And .ho
Bank of England Charter larly in question, that he was engaged in almost every
inquiry would be that the
existing conditions. Scotch Appeal case, and almost every Ecclesiastical case,
would not be renewed oil the besides Admiralty
its " the viper before hecases, and other business.—(Hear,
His Hon. Friend had talked of k it,
'u tration, erhaps, but hear.) It could not be denied that it was necessary to
attacked the serpent"—a good -
;la
seated theP practice of secure for jedicial offices the first talent and ability, and
not a sound argument, for he depi'ee' .
(Hear, hear) he could not conceive a' more miserable y,
economy than
considering these Corporations as ene.rre les—e
tary sys- that of so diminishing the salaries of Judges as to rechide
—but rather as important elements in t Tie' rime
tter regulated the benefit of the first rate talent.—
tem of the country ; which would both be let'(Hear, hear.)
r,
The Charter Let it be observed that by the present Bill
together than separately.—( Hear, hear.) • the fees would be paid into Consolidated H
of the Bank of England not terminating sooner' •
than 1841, had
mould calculated that durin the fort 'ears there had
he considered the paper circulation of Engq:ClL been more received g last
y 3'period
not than there would be in the same
i
not be well settled without at the same time setti.:lo. the under this During 14 years of war, the emo -
paper circulation of the sister kingdom.—(Hear, li.u.r' '
ments
Lad Bill.
been 7,0001. per annum, and 26 years at
He would ask his
Hon. Friend what they could expee. • 3,0001., that would be 180,000/ , whereas the pre-
from the opposition they were now giving to the measure? ! sent systere woulde 160,000/. Though
. only give
They could not prevent the monopoly of the Bank of i
ee.-ta nl' y '
there' would be the retiring pension of 2,000/.
Ireland by preventing the introduction pf this Bill. The
only result would be that they would prevent the Charter Sir J. GRA IIAM wished to know if the Government
intotied to fount! any measure on the report of the Com-
from being altered, that it would continue as it now did,
that the country would lose a saving of 23;0001. a-year in mittee ae to the Ecclesiastical Courts, and to provide espe-
the way of interest, and that the Joint-stock Banks would cially for ~he interchange of jurisdictions between those
not obtain several important advantages, which the Chan- Courts and fee Admirats'y Courts.—( Hear, hear.)
cellor of the Exchequer was desirous of giving them. Lord JO/1N Rle ssEL,I, said that Report as to the
Mr. D. NORRE YS said he considered the measure Eccleeieeeical Courts had not- been lost sight of. A mca-

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