The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-19 00:00:00

POOR.LAWS.

Mr. T. DUNCOM BE wished to ask a question of the
Noble Lord. The Poor• law Commissioners had issued
an order to several Unions, directing that the clerks of
such Unions should act as returning officers in the election
of Guardians, in place of a barrister of a certain standing.
He wished to ask the Noble Lord whether that order had
been presented to the Seciet4ry of State before it was
issued ?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not think that the order
alluded to was a general order. It was a special order,
and therefore not liable to that section of the Act.
Mr. T. DUNCOMI3E—Was he to understand that the
question had been submitted to the Noble Lord or not?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The question was sub-
mitted to him as to the propriety of making an altera-
tion in the mode of electing Guardians ; but ho did not
think that the order had been submitted to him as a gene-
ral Rder.

Mr. T. D U NC 0 MBE said there was a very strong feel-
ing prevailing, that the elections taken by the clerks would be
illegal unless the order had been submited to the Noble
Lord 40 days previous to its promulgation. It was consi.
dered that all orders made by the Poor Law Commisioners

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day
for the House going into Committee of Supply.
Mr. T. ATT WOO D said he intended to move an
amendment. It was his determination to take the sense of
the House on the question whether or no it should be a
recommendation to the Committee of Supply to re-
consider the vote of 34,165 men for the Navy. Now
when he looked at the state of the Russian navy,
and at the state of the navies of France and America,
and when he considered the state of our foreign relations
generally, he thought the House would agree with him
in opinion that it was fit and proper that the vote should
be rescinded. It was a most serious subject, and in the
course of a few mouths it might be too late to rectify the
error which was about to be committed.—( Hear.)
The words "fearful vengeance" had been made use of by
the Secretary for the Navy, but it was acknowledged that
the Russian fleet might run to Sheerness, or might take
Portsmouth, and, after the breaking up of the Baltic ice,
destroy that great English naval establishment. He would
be glad to know, in such a case, from what quarter of the
world they were to inflict fearful vengeance. Suppose the
Russians entered the Black Sea with twenty-eight ships of
the line, and suppose they burned Sheerness, and landed
ten thousand men at Portsmouth, how were they to
exact fearful vengeance. They had got eleven sail
of the line in the Mediterranean, and two in the West
Indies. Perhaps, in the space of three months, they
might have 15 sail of the line in the Thames ; but if
the Russians followed them with two fleets of twenty_
eight and ten sail of the line, how were fifteen line
of battle ships to contend with 38 with any chance
of success ? Night after night they had received notice
that the Russian fleet was armed against England.—
As to their being the friends of England, there was not a
man in the House so gross a fool as to believe that. They
might as well believe that Louis Philippe was the
friend of England.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) No
man who bad read history, or studied human nature,
could believe such a thing. Russia had been gathering
power for twenty years to plant a dagger in the heart of
England, and her fleet at Cronstadt would be as surely
brought against them as the Constantinople fleet on a
rmer occasion. They might depend upon it that
Russia would give them no notice, but, seizing '
the proper opportunity, she would run her fleet
into the Thames. What security had they against
such contingencies? When De Ruyter swept the Chan-
nel and burnt Sheerness what defence had they? The
Russians spent more money in their diplomacy than
they did upon their army ; they had got spies in
evtry camp and Court, and half the press of Eng-
land was bribed by them. Many of the gentry of
England were influenced, he would not say bribed by Rus-
sia. There was not a Gentleman in that House who would
not acknowledge that the disturbances in Persia and India
had been got up by Russia—as for Egypt, she
was a mere tool of Russia, and the East India
Company had acted wisely in taking possession of an
Island in the Persian Gulph, and another in the Red Sea
—one of these was a hook in the nose of Persia, and the
other was a hook in the nose of Egypt.—(A laugh.) No
man in his senses could doubt that the disturb-
, ances in Canada, and perhaps those in Mexico,
had been got up by Russia. Our Navy was not
in a condition to enable us to interfere with effect,
in Mexico, in India, or even in England itself.
We were not in a condition to meet any of these contin-
gencies, and it was proper for us to guard against them.
A little matter might create war. There was not an En-
glishman who did not feel a blush of shame whenever the
word Vixen was pronounced.—( A laugh.) Even the Radi-
cals blushed who never blushed before.—(Loud laughter. )
No man was a greater enemy of war than himself, but the
way to avoid war to be always prepared for it. Let the fleet be
put in a proper state, at all hazards and at all sacrifices.
If we were to suffer the Russians to acquire an immense
fleet in a time of profound peace, and not put ourselves on
a corresponding establishment, we were the greatest fools
that ever existed. We ought to have a fleet competent to
beat the Russians with absolute certainty ; it ought to be
manned at all hazards and all cost.—( Hear, hear.)
There were 30,000 of the best English sailors in the
American navy, and he (Mr. A.) would have every one
of them back again. But it was said, " how will
you get them ?" Why, pay them better than the
Americans pay them.—( Hear, hear.) But where were
they to get gold? Let them look at the mortgage rentals
and the funds. The Russians, these barbarians, if they came,
the Hon. Member for Kilkenny would say, "buy them off."
(Mr. flume—" No, no.") We bought off the Danes 10
or 20 times, and the more we bought them off, the
more they came.—(Loud laughter.) He wished the
safety and honour of England to be protected. What,
when they gave 20 millions to the negroes, could they not
afford five millions to British sailors ?—(Hear, hear.)
Could not our Pension-laws be altered ? Could not
our Navy be made equal to that of the American
sailors? Why did they not mtke the Royal Navy of
England the most attractive service in the world ?—( Hear.)

CORN-LAWS,
Mr. FIELDEN rose to address the House, but Achet
inaudible that we could scarcely catch a sentence of wu!bee
said. He thought the crimination and recrimination tbeteep
taken place in the course of this debate, would have f tee
much better spared. To give the House a notion thst
state in which the manufacturer was, he would state rac,
in 1826, for manufacturing a certain fabric, the mantle be
turer got 15s. 4d. ; in 1810, for manufacturing the oanlch s
got 9s. Bd. ; in 1834, 75., and in 1839, ss. And if en ilia
reduction had taken place in the price of manufaclub'ere,
cotton goods, there must be something wrong sogieretioa
But this was not all—we were increasing the pro°,oo
beyond the supply of raw materials, as would be s'oe
from the circumstance, that 3001bs. of cotton in 1817,r8sli
duced 344 yards of cloth ; whereas, in 1830, 104
the same quantity of cotton produced 388 yards; 'rid 07
and 1838 it produced 564 yards, and in 1837 it produce
_0
yards. (The Hon. Gent. was here interrupted 1100
of " Order, order," and the attention of the Spealter hid
directed to an Hon. Member in the Gallery, Yeu°,,se
procured a candle, and was very quietly reading a °O.
paper. The Speaker having intimated that it 045 the
trary to the rules of the House to read a newspePerei,eo
" offending Member" withdrew.) He hoped the Pico
would not be led away by speculators and theorists•
lotto,
proposition to establish a free trade in corn is as monlbbt of
when it was recollected that they had a public the
700,000,0001 or 800,000,0001. If the House granteo(gr,
present Committee, he hoped they would allow bin' the
Fielden) to prove before it the distressed state Coro.
hand-loom weavers. What he would suggest, if call°
laws were repealed, was that the Excise-laws shoulabdotre
repealed, and all those taxes which pressed upon the in t, be
of the people should be taken off. In addition to the laid
would propose that an equitable property tax shouldboefos
on, and that would, in some degree, relieve the peer dad
burdens which pressed upon them. Mr. Fielden con9„sot
by apologizing for having trespassed so long on the t`P"
the House. b ligbt
Mr. S. O'BRIEN could not expect to throw Mlle DOI
upon the debate, but, representing a large egricilieilig
county, he felt it his duty to state his reasons for entiese
to the opinion he had formed upon the svbject.--( slice
bear.) His constituents were favourable to the maintensone
of the present law, but it appeared to him that pod
change was desirable in the present system. It aPP'thet
to him that any amount of foreign grain required birder•
country could be imported at from 40s. to ess. per queetge
The next question was, what was the amount of tbejeoe
ply that could be obtained at that price. The Hon. rest
ber for London, whose opinions were entitled to void
weight. had said, that about a million of quarters e'ettl
he imported annually, under a system of free-trane,'hsto
considering that nearly three millions of quarters willie
been imported in the present year, since the great
price, it appeared to him that the Honourable date
bees calcelations were founded on erroneous ~
0
The present question had been treated as a 10°00
question. Now he conceived that the landlordsiterest
were unencumbered with family charges, had less ill OA
in the question than any other class of the agriceltu pee
With respect to the tenants, it was clear that by efer,
of the Corn-laws a large quantity of land would be t",„"jeli•
out of cultivation, and thereby farms would be V:00
dated, and capital annihilated. If that would be tu"„d be
in England, it would be much more so in Ireland; st"tegel
would venture to say that nine out of ten of theft's,' the
that had taken place in that country had arisen tre:sete"
ejectments that had been brought against poor teed
to
Considering that a repeal of the Corn-laws would pro;
the injury of the poorer classes, he was
'lbe,:
pared to accede to it. In his opinion those '-resn,
beneficial interests in land in Ireland would be giaeli
injured by the total repeal of the existing C 01.% pre
to many would be utter ruin, and he for one Wag n 0 if r
pared to inflict that ruin. As regarded the labourers/ORO
could get employment in other cases he might be eh, 01
about the measure, but that could not practicallY bled!
effect of its working. He was not for taking thew for
;
English labourer ftom the work that he had hithe.
lowed and sending him into lanes and manufactories' thr
effect of the repeal of the Corn-laws would be t° deal;
large village districts into pasture, and that would be epeP,
mental to the labourer. He was satisfied that the 'wo'
of the Corn-laws would throw hundreds of thongleptiP,l:
labourers ont of employment. Then came the grey;
how far it would be beneficial to the manufaettlice
would certainly have the effect of reducing the P:rb tb
wages, and thereby enabling them to compete er`i,t, p 0,5
foreign manufacturer. He would admit also that t"01"
sons from whom the supply of corn was obtained
010
become customers; but then the home market IrO
lost to a great extent. He doubted whether the ads' afitslri
lieu
to the manufactures tt e repeal of the Corn-100,e tiff
be so great as it was imagined. With respect to °lite
nufacturers' workmen, it was clear from the stateinetheliP
the Hon. Member that t would be no advantage t°,,, Ohl);
Looking to the advantages and disadvantages' -0e t"e-
fessed that he thought the balance was in favour seer
principle of maintaining protection. He was at 0110'
time willing to admit tit would be proper to Coot bre
whether some alteration or modification should
sosebt
made in the law so as to prevent the fluctuations theaselg4
continually taking place.—( Hear, hear.) Hew I'll.;
that the question ought to be fairly considered. ~at ee'r,
self he was prepared to come to the conclusion t"
„rte Psee
nial corn should be permitted to come into the P-sin
fectly free. He would give a bounty upon anY g,rheredi
came from the Colonies in preference to any e' etest,"ll
He thought there ought to be a fixed instead of a nu" Of "
duty. He thought consistently with the intereotholl;
parties that a fixed duty ought not to be less ~hap atiellee
Any thing less than that, in his opinion, would ne, to °lb
any good purpose. He was as anxious as any °ILa
the price of corn low, but that must be effect be
a consideration of safety to all parties.—(Hes"pretco,
He held this to be a question of protection, or finentielnA st
tion. It was a motion brought forward by e,`"eceog,,e,ert
who said he would take nothing but repeal--W° 03,1;11
what he (Mr. O'Brien) called a protecting duty 11";fe
hear.) He would not consent to anything less t"-cose,"ot
of 12s. He did not think any Member of the didA''be
ment would consent to so small a duty; and biehonl'er
wish his vote to be misconstrued, and that h°"he u°
supposed not to be an advocate for the repeal 01 • for
laws.—( Hear, hear.) ober,op
Sir J. T YRRE LL thought the Hon. M„cr 1
rep'
Wolverhampton had shown his discretion in rt shese
when the subject first came before the House, tin,jes ere.
be heard by counsel and witnesses at the bar. It eo re Pte'
ing the deepest censure on Hon. Members, Ole/
sented those districts, that they had not slylwrtalice.her
to „or,.
selves able to discuss a matter of so much hie Mcn?des
oo of
wishest e G Government, etrlni
emaegnrti,o
(Hear, hear.) He lamented that there was feell•
htuoralre interests. It was
„Able r to
cumstance that we were indebted for the rniee'4oolhe'oo'
sition of a fixed duty, by the Noble Lord the the abf
Stroud, who must be considered as representinepoteore
resented either the this co'
vernment, and that proposition had only been suPsee betted
one solitary petition when the proposition first es rose
the House, aud four since. The I who reP
i° ,a
gent emen ogo ,ase
the manufacturing interests had a great ach;_an,t, rn• "Did,
ing the President of the Board of Trade witeeDe, oecurieeo
time ago he made a speech on the subject, evi,uad rrese,' ft
five hours and a half, but since that time be, le; ieugb'sieor
the most solemn silence in the House.--'r 14011'
was curious that after four nights' debate tue,...ish Mo7ect,
ber who just sat down was only the second Jibe suVo
ip
who hadexpressed ts t Dub°
his sentiments for cool
but seeing the Hon. and Learned Memberd
ebate °vicar' /
his place, he hoped he would not allow the ar ocr
• c 'f s f
to a close without stating his °lemon. o
The only argument which he had heard in favthc pri ee'
derate fixed duty was that it would equalis% effect °fthancorn, but he contended that it would have thec_etaiettebes
sibling capitalists to speculate with greater rof balosto
before. He also hoped that the Cbancello I 13
• ets sslenv
quer would favour the House with his sentut?en,stbee _ the
the amount of the proposed fixed duty, as t co on
hers of the Government had been completeli
et ell
e
subject.—(Hear.) tie 14'" b of &II
11r. W, WOOD would rot a:ldrs:s - eee
the oP
length, but there were some statements in