The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-24 00:00:00

s.
sition made aeairs... inquiry, the right to make it never had
been relinquisher'; he had Loped the time would coTe alien
the in night be tmfettet ed from isli apprelicesions, end
that time had row come.—( Hear, hear. ) Ile asked any gen-
tleman to sutra up in his ;lace and tell. him and the werld—
that world which was looking to their discussion—on wl•at-
grourd was inquiry to he withheld respecting greets miler r.
sally believed to he improver ?—( ilear.) Ile knew that there
writ.. Hon. Getelereen upon the ether side—he did not concur
in their erincipls althotteh he respected them far their con-
tistency—who maintained that that House • had r.o right to go
into these matters, and who broadly ass rted that the
Crown had an indisputable control over the hereditary
rev( mos of the (ornery, to make away with the eshele
of it, either in liege lumps or convenient slices, as suited
its cepriee, its pleasure, or it.; whim. Those %silo main—
tained such epiniens ought to belong to the Cehinet
Don Carles—they ought to hive lived in ties times cf
Charles or of James—et all events, they had no right to
live now.— ( Laughter.) They ought to be keie as safe and
as sacred as cid china, and put up in a comer Nacre they
would be free Ciem the ipprebetnien of darer damage.
ge- r or of
--( Laughter.) Another of jectien made to him in the three
repeated struggles in which be Lad tehen a part to render the
Pension List subject to revision, and this objection was the
rain ground of opposition to him, was that he was concluded
by compact and by Act of Parliament. There was one com-
pact of which, they had Lewd so much, and he re-
garded rs a stratagem—a fabricated stratagem. It was that
!etc Majesty, of Whom they had hear). so much after be
hied Ceased to be, and whom the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary fur the Home Departrecs:t bad in his place declared
to Le Post ductile and pliant of all men—as one
whose cnly ehject ass seeking the people's gond. was
yet se dogged in his resistance to the Reform Bill that
he never would sanction it, unless they (in the House
of Commons) were prepared to pass the Pcnsicn List
Pnincestigated. That a" as the sort of story that at the
time hind been manufactured amongst the cxpcctants
of the Government, and he bore the fruits of it in
his defeat. That time had now gone by,end he had no desire
to meddle furher with the subject. He knew Low stubborn
were the influeneet of party, and how binding were the motives
of political faction ; )e! betr••sted they inherited an enlarged
spirit of generosity, and a sincere Inca of justice, that would
triumph over every minor consideiTtion• Ile did not believe
otherwise of that House, fresh as it was from the constituent
body ; for he was not prepared to denounce them t
it ;-
posed to the feelings of the Constituency ; and if :."" did
not represent them fully, they did, be believed, at- least ue
so to a very great degree, and therefore he was not prepared
to say that they looked to the public expectations with
regard to that house with coldness or indifference.—( Hear. )
They in that I-louse were opposed to an extension of the
elective franchise to a large portion of the population—
to the very portions of it that were the sources of their
wealth and their strength—upon them he then called as
kind-hearted Christians, to throw aside all the trammels of
degrading and emaciating faction, and to stand forward in
the proud attitude of patriots, to tell the children of servi-
tude—to those who laboured from morn till eve, .to the
poor and the unprotected—that the sentiment and the prin-
ciple which that House cherished was that of doing equal
justice to all, whatever might be the distinction of order or
of rank. or however necessary they considered such differences
to the form of Government; that to all they desired the same
rule to be applied, and that there should be the same law for
the cottage as for the palace, and that while no wrong was
done to the titled, no insult should be flung upon the peasant.
—(Cheers.) Let them, then, he said, look to their poor—
let them behold their poor applying to the poor-law guardiani,
and not a miserable shilling to be spared to them, wherever
there was a connection on whom they could be made depen-
dent, and from whom a contribution could be wrung. Ho
called upon the Members of that House to stand forth and tell
the poor that they were their friends ; that they were not the
men to have only a regard for persons with splendid titles,
and no sympathy with the lowly and dejected, or that such_.
alone were to be disregarded and unpitied. He appealed to
his Honourable Friend, the only County Member he might
say in that House who felt a real sympathy for the poor.
It might seem invidious, but he could not help referring to
the representative of the county of Kent ( Mr. Hodges)
—he appealed to, he asked that Honourable Member,
whether he did not remember evidence to this effect
having been given before the Committee :—A man mar.
ried a woman who had an illegitimate' child at the
time she was married; the father of the child had been or-
dered to pay a certain pittance for the support of the child;
this married woman discharged the relations of life decently;
the Act of Parliament passed ; and the father of the child
refused to pay the 18d.. per week that he had before paid.
The man resorted to the Poor Law Commissioners to enforce
payment, and he was told that under the new Poor Law Act
that 18d., which had been a part of the settlement of the
child, could not be enforced. They who spoke of marriage
settlements would perhaps despise so paltry a sum asl Bd. a- wed,;
yet it was Of great importance to the man compelled to support
the child, while the Act emancipated its father from the pay-
ment of it, which before he had been hound to make. He had
been present at a meeting of Poor Law Guardians. lie saw
one hundred wretched creatures standing about the doors—
they were admitted at length, one by one. Then came in a
poor woman, . seventy years of age, bearing upon her
back the tattered evidence of past reepeectability. She was
asked as to her circumstances, and it appeared that she was
the widow of a man once a considerable tradesman in the
parish, and who had contributed to various parochial bur-
dens. She was asked if she had any children, and she re-
plied that she had two sone, one a bricklayer and the other
a baker; that both were married, and each had children, that
they earned about 18s. a-week each, which Was little enough
to support their own families. What was the answer of the
lloard to this woman ?' That while she had two children, and
they were earning It4s. a-week each, she must look to her
t=ons fur support. And when the Committee were reminded
that she was the widow of a man once in as good circuits-
etances as most of themselves, they gave her lei. and a loaf,
and told her not to mention it to others. Vas that the rule of
justice slow enforced against the poor that was to he applied to
the rich ? Ia the name, then, of common Christianity he ached
them if it were ? They prayed to their undying God that
their deliberation might partake of his heavenly wisdom.
He then asked them, in the name of Christianity. when
they dealt out that species of justice to the poor, the old,
the unprotected, and the helpless. would they yet suffer
a list of 1,200 pensioners, 300 of them with titles, and
many of them connected
. with the proudest of the land,
so go enquestioned?—(Loud cheers.) Were they to do
this en 'he ground. that inquiry might be inconvenient,
or impose a difficulty on themselves ?—(Cheers.) He
did not wtsh 'hat ungenerous scrutiny which had been
applied to the agc:d widow; he merely asked, in all the
delicacy of polished phraseology, that some inquiry should be
made, in order to see whether some such reasons for the con-
tinuance of other pensions might not he discovered similar to
those in the cases of Miss Stuart and Mrs. Somerville. If
this a ere the case, let them all live on the national bounty—
let them live on the people's industry—let them have the un-
enviable recollection that they were sustained on the severely-
taxed industry of the mariy.—( Cheers.) He cared not
whether the present Ministre was dissolved to-morrow, or
whether they were sucteeded by another. lie was an advo-
cate for good government by whomsoever administered, and
be required no better test than good feeling. Ay, he would
ask the formidable phalanx of Elan. Gentlemen opposite, that
while upon intelligible grom:ds they were opposed to anything
like the reckless advance of fathcmless innovation, and whilst
they declared in the discharge of their boasted declaration
flat they were the friends of reform wherever a practicd
grievance existed—he would ash them to throw off th.e unge-
nerous restraints of party, and to tell the poor- of the land that
in the proud Conservatives of England they had generous
friends.—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Member concluded by
moving his emendment. Ile said he had not the words of the
amendment. but they were in safe custody.—(A laugh.)
Mr. HUME was afraid his Hon. Friend had misunderstood
what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—
( Hear, hear. ) If his Hon. Friend had understood the pur-
port of the Right
.Hen. Gentleman's speech, he was sure he
would not press hi44nretelment. The very object of his Hon.
Friend's anientlnierltewas met by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and he lief'ed that the Night Hon. Gentleman would
satisfy his lion. Friend, by repeating his declaretiune
['[ho Chancellor of the 2xcht quer here Landed Mr. Hat vey
his ano.ndrner t.)
Mr II ARV E Y read it. The object of it was to direct the
Committee to nieke a full examination into the circumstances
under which each existing peimsion was eranted, nod whether
the centiettancs of the same was justified by any public ser-
vices, or other special circumstances.
The SPE A K ER ingnirc,l who seconded the moti. n ?
Colonel SHIT!' 01?1)—I do.—(-Laughter and cheers.)
The CHANCI LLOR. of the EXCHEQUER felt hound
to apologise to the Hon. Gentleman the Meedier for South-
wark for the inconvenience he had been subjected to iu conse-
quence of his lost pamper.—(A laugh.) He u as very sorry to
have thrown our difficulty in the Hon. Gentleman's way,—
(Hear.) In reply to the observation of the lion. Member for
Kilkenny, he begged again ;n appeal to the unqualified manner
in which time weeds of his motion conveyed the intention of her
Majesty's Government when they moved for a Committee to
carry into full and entire effect the object comprehended in the
notice which he held in his hand. He believelthat, with one
exception, his notice corresponded with the %Niches of the
Hon. Member for Southwark. He believed that that Hon.
Member wished to add sinecures.
Mr. HARVEY—I do not.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad
of it. as be thought that such a suggestion would only have
the effect of prolonging the inquiry, without leading to any
good result. He would again read his notice of motion ; it
was for a Select Committe;e to inquire into each Pension, and
whether it ought to be continued, basin,* due regard to the
just claims of the parties, arid to economy in the public expen-
diture. Ile vs-ould only add, that be should feel bousel give
every assistance in his power topromomitetheinqui.ry.—( Cheers. )
House to
Mr. HARVEY begged the excuse his anxiety
to know if he rightly understood what had been said. Did
he understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that,
though he considered it inconvenient to incorporate this in-
quiry with the Commitice for which he moved, yet that he
would have a Committee haying for its object the resolution
he had just read? Was he; then, in die first place. to under-
stand that there would be no money voted in reference to
these pensions until the inquiry was made and the result
known.—( Hear.) He was sure the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would not suppose that he imputed to that Right
Hon. Gentleman any thing like a desire to avoid the object
of that resolution, but that ho would appreciate his (Mr. IL's)
anxiety to understand him. He wished to see everything done
sincerely and correctly. Was be to understand that they
would have a report from the Committee, and that the money
should not be voted until all those pensions had been eta-

mined in the spirit both ef liberality and of vigour a hick was
intended?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
that the explanations he had already given were so clear that
person, unless one who was rather disposed to look at
everything proceeding from that (the Treasury) bench with
-u-pieion, could possibly misunderstand him. The Hon.
Member for Southwark seemed to suspect that his object was
to delude the House nf Commons in this inquiry; and in the
mean time to obtain a confirmation of these pensions, so as to
prevent the inquiry from being turned to any practical pur-
rose. lie would take, for instance, a separate pension in the
Civil List. Suppose the inquiry should lead to the result
that it was reported inexpedient to continue this pension, and
that pending the inquiry Government had, by other proceed-
ings, taken steps to have this pension granted, and the House
of Commens was thus deprived of power and control over such
pension, then he would say that the inquiry wouldbe an utter
delusion. The intention was, that these pensions should not
he appropriated pending the inquiry.—( Loud cheers ) He
drew this disti..ction• in order that no difficulties might be
thrown, in the way cf the settlement of the Civil List, as that
settlement need not commit them with respect to any cf these
pensions. He trusted that this explanation would be satisfac-
tory.— ( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HARVEY said, tLat whilst he had no desire to be
understood as relaxing in any degree the impression that lie
had overweening confidence in the Government, still he must
say, that lie had a sincere confidence in the purity of the Right
Hen. Gentleman's present intention, and he hoped that the
inquiry would be carried out as efficiently, as sincerely, and
as certainly as he wished -it to be. Under the eh cuff:stances,
he would withdraw his amendment.—( Cheers.)
An HON. MENtnaa inquired whether the inquiry would ex-
tend to the Royal Household ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would lay
all the information in his power before the Committee, but lie
could not consent to an inquiry into the wages of the meni-d
servants of the Royal Household.
Sir R. INGLIS was unwilling that the subject should be
refeercd to a Select Committee, without making one or two
observations with reference, not to what the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had said, hut to what he had left unsaid, The
speech of the Right Ilon. Gentleman did not bear a single
allusion to what appeared to him a main part of the present
question, namely, that One party gave as well as received.
It was important that the House should know whether this
was a fair bargain between the Soyereign on the one hand,
and the body of the people on the other. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer bad .never alluded to the fact, that the -
-.ern on this occasion, was giving a sum very con-
-.
,lerzer than the Crown received. On the esta-
siderahly
the greater part of the Right Hon.
blishment of this fa'ftt
Gentleman's argument would fall to the' ground.' It appeared
to him that the Crown was in reality receiting infinitely less
than the Crown was entitles! 14 receive. It would appear from
certain papers which he'had inoeed for in the late Parliament
that by the arrangement entered into by the cirown respecting
its hereditary revenues, the-people had prefitted 'to the amount
of twenty-nine millions. He would move that these papers be •
referred to the Select Committee on the Civil List.
After a few words from Mr, TDBNER, who was inaudible
in the gallery,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
as to the public being benefitted to the amount stated by the
arrangements entered into, be did not believe one word of it.
Indeed, he believed that the Hon. Baronet was peculiar in his
opinion on the point. If the Hon. Baronet carried his prin-
ciple to the full extent it would go to, this, that James 11, who
had a revenue of 2,400,0001. held it as an estate with which he
might have done whatever ho pleased. The true position of
the case was this :—The hereditary revenues of the Crown
were subject to old hereditary duties, and in proportion to the
Sovereign's income was the proportion of the expense which
pressed upon him. He would only add that he should be very
unwilling to appear to the House to be so deficient in the per-
formance of his duty as not to have stated what the Ilea.
Baronet had stated, if the statement were true.
Mr. GOITLBURN thought that some mode might be
found by which, without the intervention of a Committee, the
House might provide a certain return in lieu of the hereditary
revenues of the Crown. The House must be aware that in
former reigns it was the practise of the Ministry to propose
to the whole House, without the intervention of a Committee,
the sum which they thought a fit -return in lieu of the here-
ditary revenues. His late Majesty William IV. was the first
who departed from this practice ; but this was done more with
a view to a political object, than• to the advantage of the
Crown or the convenience of the country. It was, however,
not his intention to offer any opposition to, or to enter into
discussion of, the principles. involved in the appointment of
the Select Committee ; but there were one or two topics in
the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer which he thought that Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman had not treated with the fairness which
might have been expected from him. He had had the good
fortune to have been in the service of former Sovereigns,
and he trusted that he would not be accused of
disrespect to her present Majesty, if lie ventured to
offer one or two observations respecting the Civil List of her
predecessors in reply to the statements of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. That Right Hon. Gentleman, in ad-
verting to the reign of George Ilia stated that a large addi-
tion had been made to the Civil List at the commencement of
his reign, and that from other sources fifteen millions had re-
sulted to George 111., in addition to what had been granted
by Parliament. True, the Right Hon. Gentleman after-
wards made a material deduction, for he admitted that
nine millions had been devoted to other purposes than the
civil Government of the country, or the dignity and ex-
penses of the Crown. But what he complained of was,
that by stating thus the gross amount, persons • were led
to believe that such a sum had been received, whereas,
during the reign of that Monarch, a reign of the unex-
ampled length of sixty years, the whole amount that acceued
to the Crown, in addition to that voted in the Civil
List, was not above 100 0001. per annum. It should be also
recollected that during this reign the public expenditure
and the revenues in every departn.ent bad greatly increased.
This 100,0001., also, was expended not in extravagance,
but in supporting the energies and extending the business
of the country. There was another circumstance to which
be wished to call attention. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had reverted, with peculiar sa-
tisfaction, to the fact that during the whole of the reign of
William IV. there bad been no addition to the Civil List.
This was perfectly true; but. the Right Hon.. Gentleman
ought in justice to have stated that during the reign of Geo.
IV., also, there had no addition accrued to the Civil
( Ilear, hear.) William IV. was to be preserved in the
grateful recollection of his country because he did not permit
any addition to accrue to the expenses of the country, some
praise should also accrue to Geo. IV., who, during the period
be held the throne, contrived also to keep up the establish-
ments of the country without requiring any addition to Li,-
revenue. It was also stated by the Right Honourable the
Chancellor of the Exchequer that her Majesty stood in a
different situation from those who preceded her on
the throne, inasmuch as other Sovereigns had the
advantage cf having certain personal property devolved
upon them from their predecessors, which was not the
case in the present instance.—( Hear.) Now that might be
true in some respects, as far as regarded some of her Ma-
jesty's predecessors ; but with regard to others it was a mis-
take. The Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would find that William IV. received no personal
property from his predecessor ; what he received descended
to him in virlute corona—George IV. having, to all intents
and purposes, died intestate. The property, therefore. which
descended to William IV., came to him in right of the Crown.
If Williem IV., by such right, did receive a considerable sum
of money, it should not be forgotten, that, to the honour of
that Sovereign., lie forebore to take from the people what a
willing people would willingly have given.—( Loud cheers.)
Some members of the House wonid also recollect that when
the Ministry proposed to grant an outfit to her Majesty Queen
Adelaide, William IV. refused the grant, and bore the charge
out of his nun funds—a charge which, on former occasions,
did not fall far, if anything, short of 50,0001.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) He did not make these observations -Ishii a
view 'to disparage or controvert any proposition that might
be subtsitted to the Committee ; he merely stated these
facts in order that justice might be done to their deceased
Sovereign.— ( Loud cheers.) He would only make another
observa'ion. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chaacellor
the Exchequer had stated a certain saving as having accrued
from the arrangement made in the year 1:.3,1 with respect to
the Pension List. The Right lion. Gentleman took great
credit to himself fur the fact that on a pension list of 164,0001.
there leld been, under the legislative proVisons then made, a
diminution of 26,000/.—(llear.) But at the same time he
thought the fact was one which should not be lost sight of,
that the Government which had preceded the present one,
bad slap done. something in the reduction of these payments,
for that whereas at the commencement or the reign of George
IV. the Pension List amounted to 203,00 W., that amount was
reduced to 10.1,000/. in the course of ten years. This was
done tun, be it borne in mind, at a time when Parliamentary
control was net exercised over the List, and when, if the Go-
vernment had been inclined to abuse the powers placed in their
hands, they could have done so irresponsibly.
The motion. was then put and agreed to, and the Com-
mittee appointed, consisting of 21 Members. Amongst the
names were these of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Hume, Lord John Russell, Sir R. Peel,
Mr. Strutt, Mr. Baring (of Portsmouth), Sir T. Arland,
Mr. Hawes, Lord Viscount Ebrington, Mr. Geo. Evans,
Mr. W. Miles, Mr. Grote, Sir Tho. Fremantle, Mr. Banner-
man, Mr. Robert Palmer, Mr. Villiers Stewart, Mr. Wm.
Evans, Mr. Lucas, Mr. Sanford, and Mr. Macleod.—Five to
form a Quorum.
Col. PE EZ C EVA L moved for " a copy of a memorial for-
warded to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland from certain Magis-
trates of the county of Sligo, and others, imptignin, the con-
duct of Major Brown ( Government Magistrate) Suring the
late contested election for the county, with the signatures at-
tached thereto :—also a copy of the report of the tribunal to
which the investigation founded thereupon was intrusted, to-
gether with the decision- of the Lord Lieutenant, as commu
nicatcd in a letter signpd by Mr. Under-secretary Drummond.'
—Agreed to.

POST-OFFICE.
Mr. WALLACE, after a few short words in explanation
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, obtained a Select
Committee to enquire into the preaent rates and mode of
charging postage, with a view to such a reduction thereof as
may b:2 made without injury to the revenue ; and for this pur-
pose to examine especially into the mode recommended for
charging and collecting postage, in a pamphlet published by
Mr. Rowland Hill.—Committee to be nominated to-morrow
(this day.)

The liOuse then went into a Committee of Supply pro
ornia, when the passage from the Queen's speech on the
subject of the estimates having been read, and a grant agreed
to, the House resumed.—Adjourned at ulue o'clock.