The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-10 00:00:00

it at present suffers. In addition to these reasons, it is
not just towards the AdMinistration who have so lately
taken upon themselves the conduct of affairs, that I should
seek to involve them in difficulties in which -1,. myself,
r.bjected to be involved last Session.—(}fear, bear.) Be-
*idol, there is already a Conumittare sitting above stairs for
the purpose of itiqiiiilneinte,thh:T.oe,Laws, which can
enter upon many of the
_pointw Urged by the Noble and
Learned L' rd. That point, particularly es to levying
rates from manufacturing property, as well as from the
land, would, I imagine, come under their attention, toge-
ther with many other points referred to by the Noble and
Learned Lord, to which I. shell not advert front the late-
ness of the hour, but into which the Committee will un-
doubtedly enter, as they will into that point I have men-
tioned. My Lords, as l said before, I do not wish to
extenuate the drawers rind difficulties • of the .country;
but I must 'say 'that the dangers and difficulties of the
country did not Originate from anything that was done by
the late' Administration. They originated front the
difficulties abroad,'and the example,--the bad example—
! given by neighbouring countries, and from the misrepre-
aentetiene, that went forth, :and the false ideas that st ere
entertained respecting what had passed in these countries,
and from the want of knowledge here of the mischief
brought on these countries by misfortunes which had oc-
cerred in the course of the last few months. The Noble
Earl attributes them to us ; but I challenge hint to bey on
what point he finieds his charge. With what• does he
find fault?' How could we have acted otherwise than we
did ? ' I chillenge him to come forwerd—let him bring
his charge, arid I shall be ready to answer iter-(Hear,
hear.) I am aware of the distress, of the labouring poor ;
but I want to know in what manner Government Can in-
terfere so as to procure a remedy for the condition of the
poor? In what way could the last or even the present
Administration remedy the administration of the Poor
Laws, except by precepts such 'as those inculcated in the
documents Which I have heard this night ridiculed, and
by the example of each in his own particular station.
Legislation on thin subject has gone as far us legis-
lation can go. Mischief arises front the real-adminis-
tration of the Poor Laws by persons who are
beyond the controul of the Government of the country.
I am aware, my Lords, that it has been whispered about
that we were net sufficiently attentive to the disturbances
when they first occurred. My Lords, from the first mo-
ment they occurred the greatest attention was paid to
them by the Government. All possible means were
adopted to enable the Magistrates to get rid of them.
Government cannot interfere in the details of justice,
which must be 'administered by the Magistrates. It is the
business of Government to aid the Magistrates with coun-
sel, and with sufficient force (whenever force may be un-
fOrtunately necessary) ; but they cannot interfere in the
details. I know, my Lords, that it is whispered by our
enemies, that we did not sufficiently attend to the dis-
turbances in the country; but 1 do declare, that from the
first moment I received an intimation of them from my
Noble Friend, the Lord Lieutenant of Kent, (and I he.
Heim the circumstances were mentioned to me before any
other of his Majesty's servants), everything was done to
get the better of them. The Noble Earl had been pleased
to call for vengeance on us, He laid all the distress and
disturbance of the country to our charge. „. Afterwards he
refetred these calamities to the trial-administration of the
last fifty years, which he seemed at least in part to charge
upon my Noble and Learned Friend on the cross benches.
He certainly has as much as Ito do with it.--.((Tear and
a laugh.) Until the occurrence of the misfortunes abroad
in the Months of July and August, all was tranquil here ;
but since them misfortunes took place, and the lower
classes here were taught to think they should follow the
bad examples of neighbpuring nations, while they were not
made aware of the evils which the people of these countries
had brought on themselves, difficulties and dangers have
existed, and have been increased. During our Admini-
stration, we did all we could to relieve the people. In the
last Session three millions nine hundred thousand pounds'
'worth of taxation was taken off; and since the conuner-
cid and Manufacturing interests of the country generally
were in a state of prosperity and tranquillity, except in
those districts where there were gross and disgraceful dis-
turbances. My Lords, I have, ha consequence of the at-
tack of the Noble Earl, trespassed longer on your attention
than I otherwise would have dune, or than I trust I shall
again find necessary.
The Earl of ELDON observed, that the great console-
tiou to him in his lung career was, that he had always
beerropposed to the Noble Earl.
Earl GREY said,. that' what:he! had to state might be
put in a very small compass. He did not feel • himself
called'npon to state hie opinions and views respecting the
various subjects which had been introduced by the Noble
eiol Learned Lord. He was. not prepared for it. He had
tie reason to expect that the discussion would have taken
such a 'course. He did not feel called upon to touch on
subjects, each of which would require long and anxious
consideration. He did not feel qualified at the moment
to enter on the Corn Laws, or the novel proposition re-
specting machinery, whirls had been broached by a Noble
' Earl. He did nut think he could do so with honour to
itimielf, or advantage to the country. He asbed the
Noble Earl what he meant,by ancient machinery—was it
a sprokessewaa it a plough—or did he mean to retain the
rude implements of agriculture, and reject all improve-
ments? He objected to the Committee upon the grounds
set forth by the Noble Earl. opposite (Radnor), and he
thought the couree pursued that night fully demonstrated
the inutility of a Committee such as was rauved for by
the Noble and Learned Lord. To the Committee
on the Poor Laws he had given his cheerful assent,
feeling that inquiry might he useful, as it was likely
to lead to the correction of that which was known
to be a great evil, namely, the mal-administra-
tion of these laws ; and also of those defects
which had to a certain extent perverted them front the
benevolent purposes to which they had been directed. For
the distress of the country he felt the moat acutely, as
every man with a heart roust feel, although he believed it
was 111111.111 exaggerated in the glowing description of the
Noble Lord, and he thought that some practical result
respecting it might be arrived at by the Committee pa
the Puoc Laws. Therefore had he cousented to that
Committee, concluding that the public distress would int-
medietely come under its consideration, and their attention
be thus directed' to the consideration of the labouring por-
tion of the community. To that the attention of his
Majesty's .Miiiieteis ought in the first instance to be ap-
plied, and if they can ascertain that, by any alteration of
the !ewe, or by any modification of our institutions, or by
any new enectincot, the relief of the present distress of
that portion of the people, and the permanent ameliora-
tion of their condition can he effected, it would he their
duty to submit suck Measures to the consideration of
Parliament without delay.-,(klear, hear.) But be greatly
doubted that any beneficial contrequenete woold result from
the Committee proposed by the Noble and Learned Loral,
It was true, as had been observed, that he had often sup-
ported applications for Committees; but in doing so he
should always wish to observe the distinction laid down by
a Noble land opposite, to whom he should return his
sincere thanks for the kit,d dispoeition which he had ex-
pressed towards the Members of the present Administra.,
tion, In acquiescing to, and in opposing, a proposal for
a Committee, he ehould„ of course, be greatly influenced
by the object of the inquiry, by the time, and by the mode
in which it wee apptitd for.—(Hear.)—lle was almost
ashamed to repeat what had been already more than once
objected, that it was impressible to see any way through the
mass of subjects which the Noble Lord had introduced,—
Find, there was the question of rents and the division of
farms, Now ho (Earl Grey) did not know whether•
it wait contemplated to interfere with the rights of pro.
perty—(Hear).-rbut whether such was the intention or
not, all matters respeeting the amount of rents and the
extent of farms are touch better regulated by -the indi•
visuals who are immediately intereaterhe--(Dear.)—ln
those, tot in most cease, the interference of the Legiele-
tore, in prescribing to individuals the mode in which they
ire to regulate their own property, is roost like to produce
a military effect to that which had been anticipated. He
certainly did think that the mode in which dome taxes in
this country were inipaied—perhaes, in some measuie, the
policy by which their impost had been directed—and, in
minty instances, the nature of the tares themselves—de-
served deep coneideretion.—(llear, bear.) It might be
expedient to inquire Whether, by the alteration of some,
stud by t.flo removal, or by dinhoution of others, the coun-
try might rod derive great benefit. But he could not en-
ter into the multitudinous topics of the Noble and Learned
Lord's speech. ithich bad been said of the great ease
of the Administration. God knows! but—be would not
say that his had writ an opinion of its ease. He should
not have much nleeetion to the Noble and Learned Lord
taking up %edit him to a room above stairs a few of the
Noble Linde near hint, who wee f;lesirous of the Com-
mittee.—(Latighter.) Let it not be: sup ee:ad that he
would shrink from the performance of his duty. Ile would
as readily as any Miuister that had preceded him, come
down there, And call On karliment for inquiry, when
the intettera of the nation might reinjer it necessary,
Should an cmergeocy require it, he would not InAiitete to
upon any investiga4on, or to meet by special
gislation art important occasion, ler which existing laws
did tint provide.' With respect to the wieetion of the cur-
rency, that had already been discussed in two or threw
Guntnittees. That subject alone would furnish the Noble
Lord quite work enough, without touching upon soy one
of those noroorons mattcra which be proposer! to ineeeti.

gate at the same time. Now he bad no hesitation in say-
ing, that there had been many unfortunate mistakes in the.
interference of the Legislature with the currency of the
kingdom. A Noble Lord had referred to something which
he (Lord Grey) had said last year when preienting a
petition. It was quite true that he did, on that occasion,
or on some occasion, say that it was a strange anomaly to
have the curt ency in Ireland and in Scotland regulated on
one principle, whilst that of England was regulated upon
another directly contrary. He would by no means say that
he had since altered his opinion in that respect; but,
however much he believed the late Government to have
erred in the measures which they had adopted affecting the
curreacy, still he should pause before he consented to en-
tertain any proposition for change. He believed that
greet evil must be occasioned by creating any doubt upon
that subject. There was great danger in exciting agitation
respecting it, and that danger lie would not willingly consent
to risk. As to the question of the Corn Laws, which the
Noble and Learned Lord bad also introduced, he (Earl
Grey) did not know that he had lunch to reply. All
the interest which be possessed in the world was in land ;
and, thouah he would not pretend to he exempt front the
common frailties of human nature, yet, he had considered
that question fully, and, he believed, disinterestedly and
dispassionately. lie was entirely convinced that the ulti-
mate interest of the people themselves was, that the agri-
culture of die country should be protected ; became, with-
out such a protection, they (the people) could not be se-
cured in all seasons, a sufficient, a certain, and he would
add, a cheap, supply. He believed that to be generally ac-
quiesced in—but few objected to it. He knew, indeed,
that there were some persons who had the courage to re-
commend the entire abolition of the laws which regu-
lated the trade in corn ; but, for his part he had
nut nerves to undertake so hazardous an experi-
ment, for he knew well that if it should fail,
the evils which it would occasion could not be reme-
died. They would lead to the destruction of the coun-
try. Although such were his opinions, yet he was not so
wedded to the Corn Laws, as to say, that if the subject
were introduced at a proper season he would oppose the
consideration of it ; but he must say, that no question of
such a nature ought to be introduced in a lemon of great
popular excitement. (Heir.) It was the opinion of
many persons well acquainted with the subject, that the
country had greatly benefited by those laws—that they
had greatly promoted the improvement of its agriculture,
and led to an increased supply of corn. But he had a
second opinion respecting them, which was, that there can
hardly be a greater evil than that the state of the law affect-
ing agricultural interests should be fluctuating, and sub-
ject to continual changes. (Hear, hear.) Repeated al-
terations produced evils which could not be compensated
for by the benetfts expected from the improvement. He
would repeat, that at a proper season he should not resist an
inquiry into the subject; but at present, when the agita-
tion of the subject could not fail to be mischievous, be
was unwilling to go into the inquiry on that ground aloes:,
independently of his conviction that the Corn Laws had
produced to the country not evil, but great good. But,
there, again, such a field of discussion was opened by
the introduction of that topic, that if the proposed
Committee should apply themselves to the investiga-
lion of that alone, they would find ample employment
for the whole Session, Now he would ask the Noble
and Learned Lord opposite (Eldon), who was so
great. au enemy to delay upon the present occasion,
however friendly to it on others, did he expect to
proceed promptly and vigorously by the means which
he bad proposed ? Could he expect to gain with
promptitude and speed by a Commission of Inquiry, the
object which he professed to have in view? Could he
bring before a Committee the numerous questions of
which he had that evening spoken, in such a shape as to
afford hope of a speedy determination ?—(Hear.)—Now,
with respect to the complaint that capital could not find
employment—that it consequently lay unproductive in the
money chest of the capitalist, he would ask, was the as-
sertion consistent with other statements of the Noble
and Learned Lord himself? The inconsistency lied
been clearly explained by his Noble and Learned Friend
on the Wooleack. Ile was sure the. Noble and Learned
Lord opposite, who had made the complaint, was him-
self the last man hi the world who would, like the grasp-
ing and discontented usurer, hoard tip his gold under
lucks and bolts, until the prospect of excessive gain should
tempt him to release it. That time employment of capital
was not now so productive as it bad been at some other
periods wan quite true ; and he hoped that, before long; the
renovated activity in other depertments of the national
commerce would enable capital also to find employment.
However, the fact that the rate of interest was then lower
than it had bean at any former period, far freinaluming
that capital was looked, completely proved the contrary.
The lower rate of interest was occasioned by the greater
liberality with which capital wits employed. Was it to
be supposed that a Committee would come to a speedy de-
cision upon subjects so numerous, and in some respects so
contradictory, as those comprehended in the speech of the
Noble and Learned Lord, whose motion was before the
House ? Although he (Earl Grey) would not (as he had
said) object to inquiry when it could be entered upon with
a prospect of advantage, but he believed that it bad been
shown, not only by himself, but by other Noble Lords
who preceded him, that the proposed inquiry offered no
such prospect. The mode in which those various sub-
' jeers; had been introduced, gave rise to great doubts and
difficulties, and he was unable to follow the Noble Lord
in so complicated a discussion..—( Hear, hear. )_lle (Earl
Grey) knew, and be deeply regretted the evils which then
afflicted the country. He allowed that, as bad been ob-
served by the Noble Duke opposite!, that occurrences which
had taken place in other countries bud had some effect in
aggravating those twilit, and had been taken advantage of
by evil-disposed persons, to operate on the minds of the
unthinking, or of the unhappy and discontented.---(Hear,
hear.)—Of that he had no doubt. Yet Ire could not are
how the propos, d Committee could lead to the discovery of
a remedy, At all events, every purpose which the mo-
tion of the Noble and Learned Lord contemplated, would
he much tunic readily attained by the Committee already
appointed to investigate the inost important objects of the
present motion. On the decision of that Committee he was
disposed to wait; but, if in the mean time good grounds
should he produces! for inquiry, which could afford a reason-
able hope of success, lie would be willing to cutter upon it.
lint he would ask Noble Lorde whether, considering the cba-
racter and objects of the inquiry, did not the season at
which it was proposed furnish in itself au insuperable ob-
jection to it? With respect to what had been said con-
eerning flee approaching adjournment, he would say that
Noble Lords would not suspend the business of the House
fur the sake of the usual relaxation of the season, if by
continuing to attend in their places, they could promote
the welfare of the State. But he 'Relieved, that to far
from advancing the public good by sitting there in discus-
sions, of which the termination cool(' nut be foreseen, he
believed that their protracted absence felon their respective
districts would be injurious. In the present state of the
country, nothing was more desirable than that persons of
property and influence should as soon as possible beve an
opportunity of promoting tranquillity in those parts of the
country where they respectively possessed, in the first in-
stance, the power to repress disorder; and in the next,
the influence to cultivate amongst the different classes, a
better spirit than now unhappily seemed to prevail.—
(Hear.) It should he borne in ntind, that the peace and
tranquillity of the country required from the Illagistracy
such vigorous measures as would effectually put an end to
the outrageous proceedings by which some districts were
disgraced. He had heard with concern the remake which
had been made respecting circulars recently issued by see
Noble Lard near him, as Secretary of State (Lord Mel-
bourne). The purpose of that letter was to encourage
those Magistrates, who bad been active in the discharge of
their duty, and to make known to those Magistrates who
had allowed themselves to lie intimidated into compliance
with exactions of the turbulent, that they enereassd
the mischief by their weakness,--(Thar,) hassle had mint
only themselves acquiesced in the violent dementia made
upon them, hut had published advertisements recoin-
mending the discontinuance of machinery. such con-
duct, far from allaying the discontent, wee calculates!
moat grievously to aggravate it.—(llear, (tear.) Li
that, three keatlaineu hued acted quite
giainconsistently,sltors
not only with the duty of magistratea deriivii,nigice7:ll:dority
from recognised laws, but with the wisdom of legislators,
If the turbulent be told that clamour, v 4
tu-
mult would prevail over the lima there would he for ever
en end tai peacefld society amid to regular government. lie
hoped that it would not he necessary to use the sword of
the
law (et
which a Name Lord had spoken) further than
for the punishment of those who instigated to outrage the
simple and unthosigniog Ile hoped Out they would be
brought to justice, and, at the antra thue, trusted diet
every thing would be dune to remove Ow distress, which
had brought many to that state of temper in which mis-
chievous men could act upon their minds. la the multi-
tude of toNtets which that discussion had end), aced, come
had doubtleal eacepad his attention. Ile had said enough
to inform the House of his oNsatiany to thus
motion ;
but in the situation in which he then :toad, and it,
whiele be had been so recently placed, he
would
not
oppose the general wish, should it he against Isis
own opinion. It was eirerely his conviction,
that
if the Committee were grantee' it would produce nothing.
A Noble Lord had said that their Lordships might net to
place a blind contidenee in the Admiiiistration. Ministere
dial not desire Node coofideuce, It Was acknowledged nu

all hands that the present was a season of great difficulty.
How that difficulty4fid been produced it was not for hits
to say:: He was.-qrts4 more inclined to consider how evil.
.could be remediisktbien' to isuftsire how they had arisen.—
Aithsiugh he concurred in great pas t of the policy of the
late Administrationalthough he wait indebted to them
for carrying that tong delayed **more of justice and hu-
manity, which be believed-Would conduce to the security
end prosperity of Ireland, was it his Wish to make invi-
dious reffeiCjions of-any kind? but it would be affectation
not to state his belief that the difficulties (tithe present M-
inistry had resulted front the impolicy of former Govern-
ments through a long series of. years, from the beginning
of the American war downwards—from the French He-
volution, and the war unjustly and unnecessarily incurred
in consequence of that event. He had opposed all those
measures in' Succession, as well as the policy in which
they had originated. To them he ittlibuted nut only the
immense taxation under which the country laboured, but
a long train of evils besides. It was now unavailing to
look hack. Ministers must assiduously apply themselves
to devise and to put into practice an efficient remedy; and
for that purpoie it was necessary that their Lordships should
allow them to prosecute the subject with no snore interrup-
tion than the regular business of Parliament rendered un-
avoidable. Beyond that they would require no indulgence,
nor claim any confidence.—(Hear.)—He bad stated to
the House the principles on which the Government should
be carried on. They did not expect to derive from the
nation the necessary support in their proceedings, without
proving by practical measures that they deserved its con&
deuce.--( Loud cries of hear, hear. )
Lord TEYMIAM would Support the motion, and con-
sidered inquiry necessary; but be wished an amendment
to be made, by striking out that part which contemplated
the consideration of the Poor Laws.

. _
On the question being put upon the otiginal motion,
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that as Ministers
had taken upon themselves the responsibility of bringing
forward effectual measures, there could he no necessity for
the immediate sitting of a Committee of Inquiry. Should
&Builders redeem their pledge, they would richly deserve
the gratitude of the country. He thought the House
ought to leave the matter in the hands of those whose
proper. business it was. He would oppose the motion.
Lard FIFE expressed his sympathy with the discontent
which now pervaded the country. lied the Committee
been proposed at the beginning of the Session he would not
have objected to it. But he did. not think that the distress
proceeded from any of the causes to which the Noble and
Learned Mover had attributed it, and he did not believe
that the inquiry then proposed would reach that cause. It
seemed to him that there was mutual blame attaching to
all parties; at all events the manufacturers blamed their
masters, And the tenants their landlords; but this was with.
out considering all the circumstances of the case. The
general expectation, however, now seemed to be, that Par-
liamentary Reform would remedy matters, and place them
on a better footing ; anti, for himself, he would say, that
be considered the time was arrived when that measure
could no longer be protracted. But it was said by some
that the people of this country were not so liberal as they
thought themselves to be; for it was found that whatever
measure of Reform was proposed, it always met with op-
position, either from a Peer or other interested person, or
ou the ground that the measure wasnot rightly under-
stood. At the present moment there appeared to be every
reason to apprehend danger from agitation, which, though
it was fashionable, ought to be taken down; and, could
only be so by a firm and temperate conduct on the part of
their Lordship,' and the Government. With respect
to retrenchment, he thought that without a con-
siderable change in the law—Civil and Criminal.
—little benefit would arise, for every measure was,
so entangled, and the interference of the law on all
hands was such, that the best energies of the people could
not be developed till the system was corrected, and fairer
play was given. To one part of our law he was anxious
to call the attention of Government,— that of arrest, fur
debt which he considered a stain upon the national cha-
-
' teeter. It rendered many persons desperate in their cis.
cumstancee, and if duly examined, it would no doubt be
found that it was as little for the benefit of the creditor as
the debtor. In one part of our law a measure bad been
introduced by the Noble and Learned Lord on the wool-
sack in which he cordially concurred. It was a plan by
which litigation would be made cheaper, and justice would
be brought near to every man's door. From the effect of
such a mode of administering the law, he anticipated much
good to the country. It would be well if, in any modifi-
cation of the criminal code, their Lordships would look to
the state of the criminal law in Scotland, where it was
much more mild than in this country, but where, never-
theless, it was found more efficient for the repression and
punishment of crime. The attention of their Lordships would,
he hoped, be directed not only to those points to which he
had adverted, but also to the poor-laws, the corn-laws ;
and even the question of tithes required their serious at-
tention, as also the laws of landlord and tenant, and any
others by which the interests of the poorer classes might
be affected. If conciliatory measures, founded upon a con-
sideration of these laws, with a view to their improve-
went, were adopted, he had no doubt it would restore peace
and confidence to the country. The people were looking
with confidence to the sincere disposition known to exist •
in our excellent Monarch and his amiable Consort to en-
courage every measure which would tend to relieve their
distrooes. As to the New Ministry, he would only say
that if they pursued a moderate course, and make it their
study to uphold the interest, the welfare, and the honour
of the country, they would meet with deserved support.
The country was possessed of great resources, which well.
timed and temperate measures would call forth so as to
enable her to meet and overcome all her difficulties. If
any thing could fur a moment make him despair of the
c ,ndition of the country, it would be the knowledge of
that malignant feeling which existed in some quarters—.
only lie hoped amongst those who did not reflect—against
a Noble Duke lately at the bead of his Majesty's Govern-
ment. Ile thought the Noble Duke deserved the thanks,
instead of the hostility, of every portion of the country.
The Noble Hail then concluded by passing a panegyric on
the Duke of Wellington's talents for war, and lamented
that people had not given him credit for the good inten-
tions that he had entertained towards the country. Ile,
however, did not doubt that the Noble Duke felt a self-
satisfaction, which more than made up the dissatisfaction
expressed by others; so that he might take to himself the
words of the poet
One self-approving hour whole years outweighs,
Of stupid starers, and of loud huzzas ;
•
And Inure true joy Marceline exil'd feels,
Than Caesar with a Senate at hie heels.

The Duke of RICHMOND could not help saying a
few words in reply to the Noble Earl (Stanhope), who
had complained that the Committee on the Poor Laws
had not taken the whole state of the poor into its con-
sideration. On that Committee he could assure the House
that it was stated that it was the with of his Alajesty'a
servants to have a lull, free, and fair inquiry instituted.
It was true that one Noble Lord not connected with the
Government, had objected to the introduction of the
question of the currency, as they had enough to do with-
out that. Among the very first questions asked of the
witnesses were—. Are the labouring elastics at the present
moment in as good a condition as they were ten years
ago ?" To which the answer was—" They are not ;"
and then followed—. Then, what is the cause they are
not?" Was not that, lie would ask their Lordships, an
inquiry into the distresses of the labouring closes? He
had felt the more anxious to make this statement, in reply
to the assertions of the Noble Eatl, that their Lordships
and the country might know the anxiety that there was
in his Majesty's servants to sift the matter to the bottom.
With respect to a Committee for Inquiry, it was known
that last year, when he bad no confidence in the Govern--
ment......when they had a Government which actually
denied the existence of the digress-41e bed moved .fur•
one ; but his motion only was to inquire into the state of
the country, as far as taxation affected the industry of the
country ; and in his speech he particularly stated that he
had no intention to disturb the Corn Laws, and no in..
tension to go into the Currency. Ile, theretbre, said that
he was not in the present instance coiled on to vindicate
his consistency. He challenged any one in or out of the
House to give hint an opportunity of vindicating himself
on that head, for he was quite willing to do so.
Earl STAN [TOPE explained.

The Earl of CAERNARVON said, that in hie opinion,
if they went into the enquiry proposed by the Noble Lord,
its only etfcct would be to prevent, and nut to forward
any practical results. With respect to the Currency, lie
must say, that he thought it worth considering how far
they might introduce in this country the Charter Banks of
&eland; for he was persuaded that by sa doing they
would be bestowing the greatest boon ou the agricultural
interests of England. lie would, however, leave them
matters in the hands of the Government, as he had great
bolo, in their prudence and good determinations ; and he
trusted that he shoo:id not be disappointed. He should
give • hia decided negative to the motion before their Lord.
ships.
Earl DARNLEY compleined that lie bad been mist.,
pretiented. Ile had admitted, last year, that distress di i
exist, but had stated that it was exaggerated ; and, indeed,
1,0 doubted whether it had not been increased by the exag-
gerated statennfut that had been made. With respect to
dm present motion, it Was too 'Midi de oninibeci rebus et
qui/madam uliia, for it to be of any use in a practical
of view ; and he should therenire vote against it.
Lord CLIFFORD nlaserved, that it bad been stated that

the probable improvement in our manufactures was owing
to the troubles that had broken out in France; but the fact
was, that the improvement- had commenced early in the
spring, and had tegulatiirogressed to the time when those
troubles broke out ; and int fir from the troubles alluded to
having increased that prosperity, he rather thought that it had
been:the means of checking trade, by somewhat checking
credits As to thi distress of agriculture, there was hardly
period of our history, when agriculture was not suffering,
except it was at some time of great excitement. It had
been found necessary to give it, at various periods, some
species of protection, or hedge it round by some prohibitory
laws. Part of the distress, we understood the Noble Earl
to say, was caused by the measure for regulating the cur-
rency, which had enhanced the value of gold here and on
the Continent., The Noble Earl expressed himself hostile
to the motion, and &fended. his consistency in opposing
the present motion, awl r in having opposed the motion of
the Noble Duke (Richmond) last year. He was happy to
see the talents of that .Noble Duke combined with the pre-
Sent Administration, which Would need all the power it
could collect to govern the otimatry in these critical, times.
He was, however, satisfied with that Government, , and
trusted it would be ably to overcome the great difficulties
of its situation. • '

Lord WYNFORD .replied. He had been represented
by the Noble Lord as having spoken against the Press,
but he bad done no such thing ; what he had said was,
that he regretted that so powerful an instrument u the
public Press, which be admitted was now very ably
conducted, should be conducted in such a way as to
give currency to opinions which be considered as very
injurious. But when he expressed that opinion he
made no attack on the Press, any more than he made
an attack 'on any of their Lordships when he com-
bated their. opinions. lie should be very sorry that
any such statement should ge uncontradicted. He
wished to reply to' the statement of the Noble Duke, fur
whom he had a very high respect (Richmond), who had in-
quired why he had not been present at his motion for
.a
Committee last year. He was then attending the Mon-
nistration of justice in the House, and had not strength
to attend twice a day. It was asserted by the .Noble
Duke that the inquiry now proposed was so extensive as
to be quite beyond the bounds of possibility. He begged
leave to
.say, if;that were the case, -it was in the power of
Noble Lords to narrow it ; and it might be limited, as
had been suggested, to an inquiry into the causes of the
distress of agriculture,- to. which he verily believed all
other- distress might be attributed. The Noble Earl
(Grey) said that he had brought forward a novel scheme
of inquiry, and proposed to inquire into the abuse of ma-
chinery. But. if that were a novel scheme of inquiry,
the merit of originating it did not belong to him. In the
last Session of Parliament the' Noble Duke tileen at the
bead 'of the Government stated that the effects of ma-
chinery were fit and proper subjects for inquiry. In the
Speech from the Throne an inquiry was recommended,
and it was stated that the effect of the use of steam-en-
gines and of machinery in throwing the labourer out of
employment was then anticipated by the late Ministers.
For his part be had said nothing against the use of ma-
chinery, but only against its abuse, and all things, even
the most useful, were liable to abuse.. He had no wish to
restrain invention, no wish to put fetters on the human in-
tellect ; but he considered that the interest of the labourers
should be sacred is their Lordships' eyes. Such an inquiry
might show the people their error, and prevent them from
pursuing that course which had led to the present dis-
turbances.—(Hear.) The Noble Earl (Grey) had also
accused him of wishing to do a more absurd thing
—regulating anew all family settlements. But with all
possible respect to the Noble Earl, he had never meant to
do any thing so absurd, What he said had been borne out
by the statement oldie Noble Earl above him, which was
not to allow family settlements mad* in money of a diffe-
rent value (torn the present, and when rents were very dif-
ferent from what they are now—settlements, he must say,
which gave opulence to the junior branches of families,
while they ruined the elder branches. He was ready to
give the Government all the support in his power, and
whoever should now oppose it from factious motives, would
be guilty of a crime of no small magnitude. God forbid
that he should do that ! In justice to himself, he must
stare the circumstances which gave occasion to his motion
The Noble Earl at the• head of the Government stated that
Ministers intended to apply themselves to the consideration
of the distress. On hearing this, he determined, that
before the Ministers were installed into their office, as
the Noble Earl expressed it,- he would not bring for-
ward his motion, which he had long contemplated.
He bud waited.till he had an opportunity of asking the
Noble Earl whether he intended to do any thing, and tin-
derstanding.that the Noble Earl intended to do nothing, he
then gave notice of hie motion fur a distant day, saying,
that be hoped the Government or some more influential
Peer would feel it his duty to bring the subject forward,
and save him the trouble. The Noble Earl wished him
to withdraw his motion before giving any reason for it.—
To that he could not consent; awl if nothing more hail
been said, he wool,/ have divided the 'House on the Opel-
-600, theugh he should have gone below the bar himself,
He was persuaded that the strong arm of the law, firmly
wielded, as he was sure it would be by the Noble Lord,
the Secretary of State for the Hume Department, and
assisted as he would be by the Alagistraey of the country,
would be sufficient to put an end to the tumults which at
present disgraced and troubled us ; but if the cause of
wikt
itoteEtsiwitelaetrhrt
nituel.moi
etui
rtotAl
niEtffiiisltsaiyeswtetesohha,isoueestnaltdNnteloioaafondtdtbto. removed, vain, very vain would it
be to cut off a few offenders—whose offences, he granted,
n
were great—but vain would it be to cut off those offenders
if no measures were taken to remedy the distress. Now
the Noble Lord had st,ited that it was the intention of his
Majesty's
itiopyeott.
ostaleuwtt
hands.e
ihoiaLeitshoct,dvshir eudraearbt
nhwj,
imenaitih•elueltei subject,
confidedt
tu beenaslhiwsoiuodtoiur
euoulhp ndll
surely
hltsteehtibilaiEraittlea..i
drtol
idal hea better
ajsaelNdsi
apreloilaii)nley:dittlieteormselves to consider the state of the country.
The first opportunity he had had, he had stated that hie
Majesty's Ministers would do so, and that he considered
it nut less their interest than their duty. Did the Noble
Lord think that they were so negligent or so ignorant of
their duty as not to think their first attention ought to be
directed to the must serious evils that ever a Ministry had
to encounter ?
Lord WYNFORD agreed that the Noble Earl bad
made diet explanation.

The Earl of ROSSLYN wished, in the. absence of the
Noble Duke (Wellington), to correct a misrepresentation
of the Noble Lord with regard to what had fallen from
that Noble Duke in a former Session of Parliament. He
did not wish it to go forth to the public that the, Noble
Duke, then at the head of his 111.1jesty's, Government, bad
said that he was satisfied that machinery was productive
of mischief and tended to impoverish the people. He
was sure that the Noble Duke never said any such thing,
or anything like it. lie was sure that his Majesty's Mi.
nisters were not of opinion that machinery was the cause
of the distress, or produced any want of employment.
Lord WYNFORD certainly had understood the Noble
Duke to say, that, the influence of machinery in depriving
the manual labourer of employment was a subject worthy
of being inquired into, and was a subject beyond the con-
troul of the Legislature.
The Duke of RICHMOND wished to correct another
mis-atatement of the Noble Lord. 11, had raid that' a:
Noble Earl not then in his place (Roseberry) had attri-
buted all the alisturhance to the education of the people.
Nobody said 40—n °bud y would dare to say so. What
the Noble Earl said was, he believed, that it was more im-
perative on their Lordships than ever to show some sym-
pathy for the distresses of the people, for their better edu-
cation made them more alive than formerly to sympathy
or to neglect.
The motion was then negatived without a division, and
their Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Dm 9,
A Member took the oaths and his seat.
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. I'LawTA, a new writ was
ordered for the borough of St. Germain's, in the room el
the Right Hon: Sir H. Hardinge, who has accepted the
Chiltern Hundreds.

Mr. BUCK presented petitions from Bideford and
Exeter praying fur the abolition of the duty on sea-borne
coals. The lion. Member hoped that Government would
give some pledge of their intention to reduce, or take off
altogether this oppressive tax.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented several petitions ftom Ire-
land complaining of distress, and against the Sub.-letting
Act.
Mr. O'CONNELL then presented several petitions
praying for Parliamentary Reform.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD, in supporting the pe-
tition, considered the recent declarations of the Nobleman
at the head of his Majesty's Government to be inconsistent
with the statement which he bad made in that Ii iuse in
1793. In the present state of the country the question
of Reform was of too great importance to admit of delay.
'lime Postponement of that measure was most dangerous.
If the Government would come forward with any efficient
measure of Reform, they should have his support, which
he )er hoped they would give him an opportunity to reti-
ikr. Recent occurrent:es in two boroughs, of which he
had heard with indignation and tegret, satisfied !dui (u,
that the ballot tea,we understood tile Noble Lor‘l)

„ .
pensable On'the Tuesday' for width' a Laiiied iftrde then
:Member of that House, bad Alied a ',tuition on the sahj.ict
of Reform, be came down determined to give that tat=
his bumble support.
Sir .1 MACKIN fOSII took the oaths and bi* osithr
Knaresborow,h,
(PCONNELL presented a petition from ilatkene
painter. of Dublin, praying for a repeal ,of tbo)1411”
Lttive Union ; and alaweight other petitions tramples.
in Ireland to the same effect..
CORK ELECTION.
Mr. CALCRAFT brought up the repos of tho
mittee on this election, which declared the Sittiur *Wm'
Daniel Canaria, Esq., duly elected to serre ioPtulianlnt

fur that city.

abet' pOisians

Mr. O'CONNELL, on presenting three • .
in fsvour of Reform,
t
ooughh.totta,co.heaareapuTileadntetillinhpin:
btthheenaliseseyd;lvvaehesysts
pwbbefroroiupongoirdsee4fortairilennsigy•arvf
I,
Idji i
c:
inward
thea
tiaohlhsateeCuhat t,all,l‘meton.fi:l:itobreipersh.w.:44:oololnnui::llll4l::litiow°.l.o.::tlidlet!
dtilartetw!
thatsupportt) should
1 1 l 1
tte di
mode
o,
uld thew give notice,, that, if they did' notvoiianar-
painlinoeudrreut "htdl;einitte"Yitlnle.Yoniv'tliacbeltucatuhrtilva:mghtueis9crti:v.e"wor:.trulhieltiadisirlYbianebrtitcalelPirtYcs"e4,"l444ll44.'ci:l:ll:.;P.
't,..rok
d
ylditeehtiaoilenof nrivtetieoatrotinsedogefloantfyh.oeeLurislodbrodybboel.Ge ooLvDpoepyrroon3nmewodehni:bt,es,y)lhi:et:iiniiiy:
itstOsiiiniubtkenri.bsitiloot,
his motion and divide the House, if he had no adtte
vtatwedasaunnatural that the money of the 'people, should be
Hated
way in a House the majority of whit* was netei•
obpparealiltioeitonivelautagateiitnospftositlshligeseb
yleocatetoubaytprrieevaerantah abed, neoamaiiisiatiootalwinnothe,
bAwyraisttethocr7orracydwhohavdoerndorlirier:vhotte: ofrn atillisetaptpthlee; influence
• ' °l''.
th:
thealdl:
tdihroenß R.
01,nVA'.InLityiSepeOmrNbeso,::_twthoiithiheahermhhuiadcmh:warikt:iivoumattli'amdelel:00041thill:
wheoulaantoltiebeondlyichtaotnee:ttoMbeymber in tbatilottie• Ikeda"
that House as to the opinion hhlimirVilifelnalltbeigleil:l::l7:::
impeller of voting by ballot. . '. '
e
to be lost in bringing tide ',impatient ineassuirblfll*
heocolinbenrAMsrtifithorrdeilartraßCWoteUßifoavETteethanSrHeifoSnoVfsEdEthTtw:::illtihtrP:aiduisa:7LlituC6bildbnathainladlierlilikienat'el.:thiohliii:ui;haTc:hiwilhalitintatich(ll:::'reeselm°::ll:4l"-lioilin:1:14:::1:/dbillini:::::
him honour to observe more generally both in that Boom
and in Ireland.—(Hear.) He was earl see] Um °I"
misapply the great talents which be was v. 1.1001 t°
Potaela; but he (Mr. Ruthven) rose of Opinioar,ltttn
that evening an unbecoming violence had hEls ei1_...,17t,',
in the reply which had been a few minutelelt ' -
some remarks of that Hun. and I..ternedrjr--1, t '-..
(Rear.) No man in that House differed g.ne" ''''''' bill
be did from soine of the opinions of the. Member:l
the' 11(In'
Waterford. But still he would say, that ht to
Learned Gentleman had not said asythingwhich" r fie
be considered offensive.—(Sir R. Wilson,: Be ~.., ,„„-‘,14
(Mr. Ruthven) did not hear a word front boat tg*L7--„il
offend any man ; but he did hear a violent Seem ..,.
p„}l
Hon. and Gallant Member, which seemed tohiot (rars.r
quite uncalled for.—(Cheers, and hear ) The Bea. .
Gallant Member had made up his mind, with suflicia,o°:
cision respecting the ballet ,• and to him C. 1t.)„,,,..i,,01
matter of surprise the Gallant General 00,"Prigh.'7
hie mind ou a subject of great importance ,tO-,7
, oth
ot
tuents, which had been a few evenings since 0„,..
'
that House—he meant the Civil List...-. .(04 0) ~,, - 'l'
would not have it imagined 'that he doubted the bon,.
those gentlemen, who, now sitting opposite, bed /
support of the late Administration. He was 'are:,
their motives were honourable, and . that they-will
~. rut;
erieutiotoly.—(llettr.) He wished
,Men who b.,0"...7i,
to perform to those who sent them into that tlOoPo.""
come forward and vote as they thought right on llotit%
portant questions—(Hear)—and be bad no doubt
Gallant Member would explain, to the satisfaction,aLL
constituents, why, on the discussiosi of the Civil hi
had not done so. Although he thought thst,the 'Or;
would afford to voters a protection,of which they 000° ~
need, yet be was prepared to confide in the present Om!.
stens and he doubted not that they would reticent. 110
pledge on the subject of Reform. I.
v
Mr. I'RYSE supported the pe!itlon.
per
treat>
e arl: tliwarn.bh
Gallant
hi'
doCesbn le. Nc:rialEl,lb 0
teLd L
denied
aws hs
:ovutcjilbi: Ida
u,lipotannt erdi,i it:iibbsi:tlydrteilicoorte!pel:doretisedif:a:Piltey:ol: Ceyspohpf:a::::::p;60:01
dishonourable7--(Hear,
-n:wPrild:asendiShigtel. dbll't!..'olefitatilli °ireel.t;d::tellgil:::talealaLefl::"l:4-:°:111:::billilr
highest character iu the country defendedauch i tal.7_
iturnollhilintesee.ptenEdGht.airleiagiplinbaaNisorl.eittiltl:ofaef:tetliwhiNinhveaabrisatualvarmrsie:stieitlitaiecutheciotrissibilbaiciyeegy,a,petataeiantoele.icnehiseiah cunjoircsirt.iaistinisw,itlgitederihiirtii.abbnilss;tbucsoioutpireasil
d
would put it out of the power of any man to Gay`
tradesmau, in soliciting his vote, " Miles. you votf.,Aff.•4o4
you shall lose the custom of 20 families?" W.°,11..",i0,
English because it would at once remove the crotttnrs,
hitiuus landlord from the tsumtation topuoirh tba,
eirwhio
of the voter for the honesty of their father. 104 dl, gr.
families homeless ripen the world ?..-(llear ' 'L., kie
O'Connell) need not boast of what lie hail dooeft be
country. lie would let his acts speak for him.
1.111L4
would say, that when the lion. and Gallen
ru_gair,
should have done fur his country as much good be vest
bin
O'Connell) had dune fur Ireland, lw would listr is;',A
taunts without displeaslicar hear.)-..0000 01
anything which could reasonably ;and' ha •w°
wit .
The petition was then kid on the table . 10 4 toe
ttomiinooeeennstfrintrioroginn:
at Ayrshire,
they
tr
ha lei i r
Re , 0 pi
Rotunda,
Ile d
ss e n, t edß 1
abc yi
fl 1 ra.
s. 0: Cos
pe5:11..70,1'
t'
poi..
:..0.6°
furg
trxiwThnefriptcdil atit.
er'higs,.oluYOlifGinlr:Cdpeih.,
ntiwOecruaaiwNbscyll
ihtuN,Rnb
Sub-letting
n ' then
same subject from two Societies ,if Friona !",•,-,',, (rocs
platese
G Gentlemen
thelei n
ehriecoif, countiesu tfranchisetthi
time
40 :
ill,riltifV:°:::011;,
itiw.os' vi
0:49gt.;r0 for
01::::
froofmthPellwele"ctiinvet
ip:Penzrigatntseyiltiiilirnsioecolginlt'lrEsanftotlltellrinUirttiedCi
oiTfnuNallerociOtginlifillioNedeLturtrGht:BOiaealooluyaFiwifii ap,
),iainaurnteh:
e‘ wslan:w:l7:l i 1
nsE::: I
oelfS'
ii
,linbtrilit:eihYi. It:. I
ieeillog:;4l. raked
1 jsprieC:o:ol:.oliiii
k'Utio.firit
00;1:1 I 1 ivt-;1iell r:Sir:ve: II
stood"sei 0.
.i; 6 aiti.i' li 'st P:. -
in
I P ;:
ipe6rntimh
beenbr
so
stetghtiiietfiGi
inrbutiaYinurnl
,latOleidetrri'rauty,Guhudic.r et
deo
a:
had
ata:al' .rdkoeNly.
tiviirlsei
time,ralfidAtaidiHt observation',
JI,NI
aioiciftun.w:ger:',4' fns'4,,h,,moll)::: bbilLib
04:- ',I: i , p 11,-::
ysteredlatthineg :o'Bllueine: ofildoi,lio,ti°oorkr,l6ollposopidet.,_•ol.l°
laxly asked for its patience, as ity %In aoll ),....rlit h.::1
that had been carried on by I' ‘l,;„e preoll
that House, who, he hoped, was "If.- 001
and would stand up manfully and avow birnd;ce,
—lf it had been an ambiguous correspon wily
.0„,
from which paragraphs had found :blw oatil
the newspapers, he would nut for a Ersoolent to.hir
it, but when he was prepared to prove at 0 roe
that House, that the correspondence was a aearot 'orattiV°l
dente of one of its Members, and that its allege', le
calculated seriously to injure him, be ba'i
~ gifo°,
to stan his plare ia Pisilistnent t°;',4 sarfr
himself, Them Member to whom he alluded 1./A 00
that his (Mr. O'Gorman Mahon's) conduct Puortire
guided by the power, and eons oil, and f!,(llsterk t
fluent, of the late Administration. VlWer ._l, to,
charge was it not fit that lie should set himself rietsetat,
the House? lie hail no other means of doing rt„..5
by entering into a war with the Eilitoea °,, 0,10
different newepapers.—(A laugh.) Ile, ther'°_„te.t°
up in his place, and called upon his a0.',400
come forward arid avow himself. He hoped the P;010
heard his challenge ; he did not mean any thigo, 0;11
liamentary, but lie ought to rise up in that'
°r reisi .
vindicate the assertions he bail suede...4l. -
" Name, tame.") St
Mr. O'GORMAN MAIION--That it what '.1:,0",
Mr. WARBURTON must rise to sailer. Pdole%,
shined the course pursued by the Honotsreblv?,..l'
quite out of order, as the circunuttances to whi •
luded took place out of dome. I 6/4"
Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON—Pie was 0011,$.1,1:0°
to what took place out of doors, and felt 00°11'"11 00'
his calumniator dare not now taunt him wt' oder,
under Treasury influence. He would now take ti!,:otsl
trinity, as it was the first that had offered iteelf, ol'ije; '0.4'1
his thinks to the late Administration fa t 0,0114
thl hid bestowed uu Ireland by glautioK