The Sun.
London, England, 1837-06-16 00:00:00

Member who had just sat down, but on tins :-,-tte:sien he
did entirely. lie thought the inquiry should have zt
more extensive range ; and, if the in•r;tioa was per-
siSted should move, as an amendmeet, that it
should have poWef tz,-; inquire into all lunatic asylums.
The petition on which the motica ,n'as founded came from
an odd quarter—namely, St. George's, id :7-ml'er-square,
and arose from information conveyed to the retry of
that perish by two patients who had been discharged.
They stated to the Vestry of that parish that if they were
not sent back they would give them information of the ma-
nagement of one of the wards. This was promised, and
they then stated that in a ward not generally known the pa-
tients ;Yore confined almost in a state of nudity in their
cribs from Saturday cvening until Monday morning. The
statement proved to be true, nntl the Magistrates thought
it necessary to interfere ; and it was from these parties,
whose proceedings were so extraordinary, that inqu:ry was
demanded. Tile Hon. Member concluded by protesting
against the limited nature of the proposed inquiry.
After a few words from Mr. CHAPLIN and Mr. BAINES,
Lord JOll N RUSSELL thought any inquiry should be
on an enlarged scale, according to the proposition of the
lion. Member for Brecon (Colonel Wood). He did not,
however, think that suMeient grounds had been stated for
acceding to either the motion or amendment, and he hoped
that they would not be persevered in.
Mr. G. KNIGHT briefly replied, but declined to divide
the House.

The motion was then noptived without a division.
PUBLIC COMMISSIONS.

Colonel SIBTHO RP rose to move for " a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into the present state of the various public
Commissions, with a view of considering how far it may be
expedient and practicable to make an alteration in the
number, and, consequently, diminution in the enormous
expense of the same." The Hon. and Gallant Officer then
went on to say that the expenses of these bodies had be-
come so alarming that the country had a right to look to
the Noble Lord (John Russell) for some inquiry into the
expenditure. It was the more required, es he (Colonel
Sibthorp) understood that the Noble Lord intended to
continue for a long period that host of locusts which were
devouring the country. By the returns made in 1836 it
appeared that there then existed 39 Commissions, which
had cost the country 553,560/. 2s. Bd. ; and by a subse-
quent retur❑ it appeared that 10 more were added since,
making in all the number of 49 Commissions. Of these 467
were paid Commissioners, exclusive of clerks and secretaries
ad infinitum. Among these Commissions there were several
going on, the labours of which were not availed of by the
Government—the Ecclesiastical Commission, for instance,
respecting which the Noble Lord had, no later than Mon-
day night, moved for a Committee to inquire into Church
property—strictly a part of the duties of that body. The
ten additional Commissions, he found, cost the country
561,3331. 4s. Bd. Among the Commissions which cost
the country an enormous sum was the Record Commis-
sion. It had absorbed nearly half a million of the public
money, and yet the public records were absolutely in a
worse state at present than they ever had been. If, then,
the Noble Lord wished to carry into effect his professions
of retrenchment and economy, he would best evince his
desire by granting the Committee.
Mr. FORBES seconded the motion.

Mr. F. BARING said the proper time to discuss the
subject was when the estimates were before the House.
There were facts enough in evidence to prove that no
jobbing was in question. The only one which could be
called a job among them was the Record Commission,
but that had been appointed in the time of Mr. Pitt, and it
had been continued by every Government since. The pre-
sent Government had, however, appointed a Committee on
the subject, which he hoped would point out some means of
furthering their progress. He did not deny that the pre-
sent Government had appointed more Commissioners
during their continuance in office than any of their pre-
decessors ; but that they had obtained more valuable re-
sults, and had used them more effectively, was equally un-
deniable. He asked the House and the country to look
at these results. If it were not for them it would not have
been possible to pass the Reform Act, the Municipal Cor-
porations Act, or the Act for the Amendment of the Poor-
law. The Inn. and Gallant Member had stated the num-
ber of Commissions (49) rightly, but he had forgotten to add
that of that number seventeen were totally unpaid. That
left 32 to be accounted for. Of these Commissions one,
that relating to public Acts, only cost the country 5001.,
while it turned it into the Exchequer upwards of 40,0001.
a-year. Seven of these were old Commissions, only conti-
nued by the present Government. That reduced the num-
ber to 25. Of these 25 there were four not of the appoint-
ment of the present Government, which left a residue of
twenty-one. He (Mr. Baring) needed only state, in justi,
fication of the Government for appointing them, that they
included the Municipal Corporations of England and Ire-
land, the Poor-laws for England and Ireland, the Factories
Regulation, the Excise Inquiry, the Slave Compensation,
the Eastern Possessions Inquiry, the Courts of Law
(Scotland), Education (Ireland), the Shannon Navigation,
Canada, Tithes, and the alleged grievances of the people
of Malta. No one could deny that these were fair sub-
jects for Commissions. If a comparison were instituted
between the cost and the relative advantage derived
from the Commissions appointed by the present Government,
in comparison with those appointed by their predecessors,
the balance would be found considerably in favour of the
former. From 1807 to 1830 Commissions to the extent of
1,217,917/. were issued—no doubt some of them most be-
neficial ; but what were the results in comparison with
those issued since 1830, which cost only half that sum ?
Under these circumstances he should oppose the motion of
the Hon. and Gallant Member.
An Hos. MEMBER opposed the motion.

Mr. WAKLEYoppO;ed themotion.

After a few words from Mr. VILLIERS and Colonel
SIBTHORP, the House divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion 2O
Against it 74
Majority —sl
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

On our re-admission to the gallery we found
Dr. BO W RING proposing resolutions of which he had
given notice, for the greater security of the public revenues,
and the greater accuracy of public accounts. He contended
that the public accounts could never be kept in a satis-
factory manner until the system was adopted of bringing all
receipts of public revenue into the Exchequer, and all
sums of expenditure issued therefrom directly, and not
from any other source. The Hon. Member concluded
by proposing two resolutions. The first declaring it to
be the opinion of the House .that, in future, the gross
receipts from every branch of the public revenue should be
paid into the Exchequer, and that no public depai tment
should be allowed to appropriate any part of it without
the previous sanction of Parliament. The second reso-
lution declared that hereafter all money arising from the
sale of public stores should, in like manner, be paid into the
Exchequer, and subject to the same regulation as regarded
appropriation.

..Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Hon. Member would
have no objection either to withdraw or to postpone his re-
solutions for the present, and he would, therefore, move
the previous question.

Dr. BOWitl NG expressed his concurrence in the sug-
gestion of the Noble Lord, and the previous question was
agreed to.

FOURDRINIER'S PATENT.

Sir 0. MOSLEY rose to bring forward his motion
for the re-appointment of a Select Committee to which
the petition of Fourdrinier for the extention of his pa-
tent had been referred. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had approved of the appointment of the original
Committee, and the Committee thought themselves au-
thorised to report fully on the whole of the subject. It
appeared, however, that they had exceeded their powers,
by recommending a compensation to the patentees for the
loss they sustained. He would now therefore move that
the Committee should be re-appointed.
Mr. M ACKIN NON had been chairman of the Com-
mittee, and he was to blame for the informality into which
the Committee had fallen ; for it was he who had intro-
duced the word " compensation" into the Report. Had
the word " consideration" been employed in place of
" compensation" the present difficulty would have been
avoided.

The SPEAKER said the Report could not, be received,
because the Committee had exceeded their powers.
Mr. W. PATTEN wished to know whether the only
question the Committee would have to consider, when ap-
pointed, was the renewal of the patent ? If the patent was
not to be renewed, were they not to consider the question
of compensation ?
After a few words from Mr. Mackinnon, Mr. Goulburn,
Mr. Baines, Sir, . Mosley, and Sir G. Clerk, the motion
was agreed to, and the Committee rc.appointed.
RATING OF SMALL TENEMENTS.

Sir H. VERNEY rose to move for leave to bring in a
Bill to exempt die occupiers of tenements within a certain
annual value from the payment of rates, and throwing the
payment on the owners. He considered that this Bill
would be a great boon to the poor. It was said last
night that the House manifested a disposition to oppress
the poor. He did not think so. The Bill would not
interfere either with the Parliamentary or with the mu-
nicipal franchise. It would interfere only with the paro-
chial franchise. Those who had no rate ought not in jus-
tice to interfere with the distribution of the parish funds.
He would take 61. as the limit of his Bill.
Mr. PRY 111 E opposed the Bill. A similar Bill was
proposed in 1834, which he successfully opposed. If the
owner was to be rated, was it to be supposed that when he
built new small tenements he would not consider the rate
he had to pay, and demand a higher rent At present the
poor man had some resource, for upon application to a
Magistrate he might be exempted from the payment of rate.

Itouz,.cs pail no rate. The consequence of imposing aµ race
on grnall tenements must he to reduce those svho r;
—(No, No.) It was so in effect, for the humbler class
toef
dread), poor into, the situation of paupers. The Hon.. and
Learned Gentleman concluded a few further observations
uy stating that he would oppose not only the introduction
of the Bill but every future strt,v,e of it.—(Hear...)
Mr. A. TREVOR objected to the Bill. •
Sir G. STRICKLAND objected to the Bill as
taking
had in
away from the poor that interest whictli they now
good parochial management.
Mr. SANFORD would support the Bill.
Mr. CRIPPS would also give his support to the' Bill!
Mr. WASON was persuaded the Bill would be fo
res end
impracticable, and render the operations of the ped
Poor-law still more difficult than they weft, at present.,
Mr. I3AINES objected to the Bill, and said that every
town in the country would petition against it if altowed to
be proceeded with. be
Colonel WOOD thought, at all events, it Would
to
wrong to pass such a Bill hastily, and that they ou.ght
wait to see what the Poor Law Commissioners might here-
after recommend upon the subject, as well as to allow the.
country time to express its feelings upon it by petitions.
Mr. PLUMPT RE said a few words, which were inau-
dible in the gallery.
Mr. W A KLEY wished to see the Bill introduced, and
objected to the whispers he heard in the House respecting'
its emanation from the Poor-law Commissioners.—Wear")
The Bill, however, was one which ought to be well con"
sidercd, for although good in principle, it contained man}
details which he strongly objected to. He particularly ot''
jetted to that part which went the length of depriv
j ing
the poor of the right of voting at the election of Poor-law
Guardians.
Mr. AGLIONBY thought the speech of the 11°e.
Member for Finsbury more against the Bill than for it, or
if not so, he was at a loss how to understand his objenti°,l
to it. He (Mr. Aglionby) hoped the Hon. Baronet wen
consent to withdraw the Bill for this Session.
Mr. ESTCOURT also hoped the Bill would be with"
drawn.
Mr. R. PALMER doubted the policy of altering the
law at this advanced period of the Session, and thought ,
would be better to defer the measure until another session.
Sir H. VERNEY hoped the House would allow. the
Bill to be printed, that the opinion of Members might
taken on it. He regretted that he could not accede tools
recommendation of his Hon. Friends, and he should ther-
fore divide the House.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG said it was provided by Local Acts
that these appointments should never exceed half the
rental ; therefore, the landlords had surely not much cause
to complain.
The House then divided, when the numbers were--
For the Bill 73
Against it 45
Majority
Sir A. AGNEW then rose, for the purpose of movil
for leave to bring in a Bill to declare that the use of Ilia'
ways on the Lord's Day is contrary to the law of Scotland'
—The Hon. Baronet, during the time of making his
tion, was interrupted by loud cries for Mr. Brotherton, 81.1

an adjournment.
Mr. WARD then moved, as an amendment, the ad-
journment of the House.
Mr. AGLIONBY said it was most unfair now to preset
on this motion, when the understanding was that the rest
of the notices and orders should be put off.
The LORD ADVOCATE denied that it was a case
established, that the law of Scotland was as the Hon. par°,
net stated it to be. .of
Mr. WAKLEY said that a notice to declare the law
Scotland on this point was sheer nonsense. He hoped the
Bill would be got rid of.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ids°
hoped the Bill wou4l not be pressed upon the House. Ile
objected, on principle, to Bills declaiatory of the law, vat'.
out the facts before them on which to come to a decision"
To obtain a quasi declaration by this House of the 10'
v.as to place the Courts of Justice in Scotland in a col
anomalous position. ' bt
Sir A. AGNEW observed that this was the last alk
for fifteen days that notices could precede Orders of tue,
Day. The law and the practice of Scotland certainly'
against Sunday travelling, but the railway proprietors wera
generally persons living at a distance, and therefore e°t
likely to pay much attention to the feeling of the inhabitants'
He should proceed to a division.
Sir W. FOLLETT joined in requesting the Hon- Be.
ronet to withdraw his motion. The object of the Hl'
Baronet was not merely to declare the law, but to raise the
penalties, and the present notice was therefore inadequate
for the introduction of such a Bill.
Sir R. INGLIS also thought that under the present no'
Lice such a Bill as that of the Hen. Baronet could not 10
introduced.

Sir A. AGNEW withdrew his motion.
Mr. BARING obtained leave to bring in a Bill to rest
the Rolls' Estate in his Majesty, and for other purposes'
Captain BOLDERO moved for a return of the number
and names of foreigners now bearing his Majesty's en
mission, with the date of their ranks, And the amouei °
pay or emolument.
After a few words from Lord HOWICK, the retort)
was ordered.
REGISTRATION OF MARRIAGES BILL. d„,
The report of this Bill was received, and the aill°
ments agreed to.

- FOREIGN OFFICERS BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on the Foreigs
Officers Bill,
Sir H. HARDINGE had no intention to oppose tbilei
Bill, but he trusted that the Noble Lord opposite (Le,
Howick) would allow him to introduce a clause into e
P
Bill for the purpose of restoring a number of old soldiers'
who had shed their blood in the service of their coeotri;
to those pensions which had been purchased of them sit
years ago by the War-office. the case of those individo3.,
was simply this :—Some few years since, under a forolo
Government, a plan was proposed, and an arrangement 1.
tered into, by which a certain number of pensioners, o°o.
1i",
certain regulations, were allowed to commute their Pe„
„,"
sions for a certain sum of money, in order to enable then"i
to emigrate to the colonies as settlers.. A great numbered''
pensioners availed themselves of this arrangement,
went out to the Canadas, to Australia, and other Colon'e"'
He was willing to admit that there was great want of d's;
cretion in the extent to which this arrangement is
permitted to be carried on.—(Hear, hear.) Sele' as.
had gone out who were totally unfit to succeed
settlers—some of the ages of fifty and sixty. The COle
quence was that many of those individuals, being ine°138,,,,j
of the exertions that their new occupations required, "--a
totally failed, and were reduced to the greatest distress. Sle-
to wli,m the compensation had-been given did not fulfil 151 e
terms of their contract, but remained in England, and tbes.
had been restored to their pensions. Now, he asked, reef
it just that those men who had fulfilled the conditions,of
their contract, and had gone to the colonies, though I",r
had not succeeded there, should be placed in a worse Iv
dition than those who had not fulfilled their compact ? co
what ground of justice could they refuse to place thesell‘ar
on the same conditions with the others ? At that late 11;1;
he did not intend to trespass on the House by prodaeliae
any discussion on this subject, but lie hoped the 01.
Lord, by permitting him to move an instruction to the `-'°
mittee, by the insertion of a clause, or by some other elerht.
would enable him to do justice to these men. ThiS 11) ~ht
done without any expense to the country, for their r,ost
sions, which had been received as an equivalent for the ;00
five years, would more than atone to the public for any fle
occasioned by carrying this arrangement into effect,
hoped the Noble Lord would not stand on any tec°'ll,oit
ties, but would introduce a clause to this effect, 'or Pe"
him (Sir H. Hardinge) to do so.
Lord HO WICK said that it would be contrary t 0 the
rules Of Pariiament to introduce any such clause the
present Bill, and he did not think that the case wit' ha so
Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had stated in"soader
much hardship as he had reiwesented. The Act no.'
which this commutation of soldiers' pensions had bee
`,ern,
mitted to take place had been introduced to 11
ment of the Duke of Wellington, in 1830. it '; atria'
regretted that this power of commutation was Pei" limits,
into effect with more caution, and under stricter .ent
but he believed the fault did not lie with the Governledv.ny
of the time. So far from the Government having !loge',
sire to induce parties to avail themselves of this a: fit to
by the
meat they provided that all persons who were
n
out
a
t
ion
become settlers should be admitted to the coffin!, fitness,
but, by means of forged certificates of age anu_.,atino,
many persons had availed themselves of the coot
Lusettleri,
who, from being totally inefficient to succeed as _s eon"
had totally failed. But in this case no injustice vrahe
mitted on these individuals ; on the contrary, it ensigns had
vernment which had been defrauded. These Pens_ and 4
em purchased on the principle of life insuraneca,,or no
d au"
could not then be said that the country would
loss by restorinc, those individuals to their pensionart
of the
Mr. GOU CB URN said that there was one Lord Inlud
statement of his Gallant Friend which the Nob
hho, t
left untouched, namely, with respect to those:
those Abu
they had remained in England and not fulfillisclt
tract had been restored to their pension=, wi'
lonies,
had fulfilled their contract, and gone to
the
eOuld not Pe.r:
to be excluded. He hoped the Noble Lord wo ,
ane
sist in reusing to give those cases consideration,
eotr
do justice to these individuals. sill be
On the motion being again put, that the
Lora
mitted, Noll the
Captain BOLDERO hoped that e_
th
'ttee vlll' tsro
would not persevere in going into Coma" ove to
Bill at that hour, as ho had amendments to 0),
ot
• tall
of the clauses. Officer would
to tiQ
Lotd HO \VICK hoped the Gallant
persevere. The object of the Bill was pint' r their eon-