The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, NoVp]miEß 28. 18,7.

that town, and a master cutlerpresided at the meeting at which
it was agreed to.— [The Noble Lord then real the prayer of
the petition, which was to the effect that the welfare of this
nation depended on the education of the people, and that the
Legislature should establish such a system of national edu-
cation as would raise the moral and religious character
of the people, and to extend to every individual the means
of knotting his duty to God and to his neighbour.] This
Petition was sent to a Noble Friend of mine who is
connected intimately with the Town of Sheffield, but he
w•a obliged to leave town before the petition was in a
state in which it could be presented to your Lordships, and
we did not receive it until Saturday.

The petition was laid on the table.
The Bishop of LONDON said, that as the Noble
and Learned Lord seemed to be of opin'on, that
there did not ',:cxist in this country any body of men who
would make a system of national education compulsory upon
the people, he would read an extract from the proceedings of
the Central Society of Education from which it appeared that
that body was favourable to such a system. The Right Rev.
Prelate read an extract in a low tone, of which we understood
the bearing to te in commendation of the German systems of
education, which are under the control of the several Stater,
and are compulsory.
Lord BRO L7G II ANI thought that the words which the
Right Reverend Prelate had read, must have found their way
from some accident into any document emanating from the
Central Society of Education. lie did not believe that the con-
duct of the German Princes with respect to the education of their
subjects would be recommended for imitation in this country
any work emanating from that Society. He was not a member
of it, but for many of its members he entertained much esteem.
His Friend, the Member for Waterford, was the Vice-president,
and the Society had done great service to the cause of educa-
tion by the publication of their works.
The Bishop of LONDON was understood to say that in
justice to the Society he should explain that the extract which
he had read contained the opinions of an individual only.
The Eari of WIN C HIL SE A said that the country was in-
debted to the Right Rev. Prelate for having drawn theirattention
to these facts. If any one had taken the trouble to examine the
objects of these meetings, he would have no doubt that it
was to establish a system of National Education, from which
all religion was to be studiously and purposely excluded.
( Hear, hear.) Suci a proposition as that he contended would
never be entertained for a moment in this great Christian
country. That House would weigh well the conse-
quences of such a proposal, and would take care that
religion should be the foundation of any system of educa-
tion that might be introduced into these countries.
Without religion, every system of education would be per-
fectly useless. He would only state, that when the question
of introducing a system of education for the lower orders came
before the House, he wculd boldly contend that it was their
first duty as Christians to give their assent to no system that
the great truths of Christianity were not put prominently for-
ward in. He would not occupy the attention of their Lordships
further than to add that he did not charge the individuals
in the Society alluded to with endeavouring to exclude reli-
gious education ' • but, he, did say, that when such facts were
stated, as they bad just heard from the Right Reverend Pre-
late, some inquiry ought to be instituted.
STATE OF IRELAND.

That part of her Majesty's Speech relating to the present
tranquillity existing in Ireland having been read by the Clerk,
The Earl of RODEN said—l have already stated to your
Lordships the reasons that inducOd me to refrain from making
any observations upon that part of her Majesty's Speech
(which has been just read by the Clerk) on the first day of
the Session, because I felt as strongly as any other of your
Lordships, that upon an occasion so interesting as that,
when her Majesty for the first time came down to make
her Speech to her first Parliament, it would ill become any
Noble Lord to provoke any debate, or any appearance of a
difference of opinion upon so interesting an occasion.—( Hear,
hear.) I therefore felt it my duty to take the opportunity
afforded to me today to call your Lordships' attention, for a
short time, and as shortly as I can, to these circumstances
alluded to in her Majesty's Speech, and to endeavour
to prove to your Lordships, by a reference to facts and docu-
ments, which I think are not to be denied, that her Majesty's
Ministers had no grounds whatever for stating to your Lord-
ships, that tranquillity existed to such a degree in that part of
the empire as to give this House reason to enter into
measures connected with Ireland, which were of the
greatest importance to that part of the country. I
confess it appeared to me that that part of her Majesty's
Speech was very dexterously worded, and, perhaps, with the
view • of making it appear, as it has appeared in a
certain periodical paper, which I know is a paper very
popular amonr, some of your Lordships, that the Administra-
tion of the Noble Earl opposite ( Mulgrave), who sits at the ta-
ble, bad been the means of allaying many of those evils which
had existed for some period, and which had produced tran-
quillity in that part of the empire, or at all events com-
parative tranquillity, which had not existed before.—( Hear,
hear.) My Lords, I believe that so far from this being the
fact—so far from the state of Ireland being more tranquil
than for a long period of time—at no period--(and
I would hardly except those periods of open in-
surrection itself)—( Hear, hear)—has property, has life—
has the exercise of the Protestant religion in Ireland
been in greater danger than at the present moment,
when I now have the honour of addressing you. My
Lords, I feel that in bringing such a charge as this
against the Noble Earl, and his administration—in bringing so
grave and heavy a charge before I refer to his acts—l must beg
leave to say that his pernicious course of government has in my
opinion tended to produce this fatal—this melancholy state
of things.—( Hear, hear.) I feel that such a charge is
indeed a grave and a henry one, and it would ill become
me to make it, did I not feel that I was standing on grounds
from which I could not be shaken ; and did I not feel con-
vinced that I have facts to prove what I have ventured to state.
I feel confident that in the course I have felt it my duty
to take to-night, I am not swayed by any private motive
or party purposes, for I have no political ambition to serve or
gratify ; but I feel that I stand here, my Lords, speaking
the sentiments of a very large and a very respectable class in
Ireland with whom I have had the honour of much intercourse
for many years —'hat I have received the confidence
of those individuals not of one class or of another—
but I will undertake to say, and I say it with pride and
gratitude, of various different denominations of persons—
. But, my Lords, I am not desirous of making any overstate-
ment, or of painting it in colours which may make the case
appear worse than it really is; but I desire to refer you to facts,
and to the papers which I shall move for, as proof that her Ma-
jesty's Minsters have no right to state that Ireland was in that
state of tranquillity which is referred to in the Speech from
the Throne.—( Hear, hear.) I may be told by the Noble
Earl, in answer to my statement, that there is not only his
authority against the statement I make, but that there is the
authority of the Judges and Assistant-Barristers of the As-
sizes. It may be said, for I have seen it stated by the organs,
or those who pretend to be the organs of her Majesty's Minis erg,
that the Judges have expressed themselves gratified at the Assizes
that the calendars were so small; and that was held forth as
a proof of the general tranquillity of the country. But I think
the fact of the calendars being so small—when I compare that
with the proclamations of the Noble Earl, and the papers I shall
move for establishes my position, and proves that the law of
Ireland is a dea I letter—that crimes are committed—that the
culprits are ealarged, and that therefore the individual
offenders are not brought to the bar or justice--( Cries
of " Hear, hear")—the papers I shall take the liber.y of
moving fsr are those connected with crime from the Ist
,of
January 183 G, to the Ist of December 1837. I find, on re-
ferring to the proclamations of the last six weeks of the
Noble Earl, that there have been 13 murders committed in dif-
ferent parts of the country. 11.,sides that there have been various
other crimes commited—attempts made for fire-arms—at-
tempts at assassination—beating people, Sac. In twenty-five
counties there have been various visitations of such a nature
committed—crimes which Lord Bray stated were the cer-
tain results of political agitation.—( Hear, hear.) Those
crimes have been the result of a system—of a conspiracy
which has been established for some time under various names.
We find it sometimes called by Ribbouism, sometimes by White-
footilm ; but by whatever denomination we find it, themsame. ob-
ject is visible—those companies of marauders are nightly visiting
the peaceabla inhabitants—the Roman Catholic inhabitants
who Ire unwilling to join in the conspiracy, beating them,
and sometimes inhumanly murdering them ; but the great
result is the destruction of Protestant property, Protestant
life, and iwevention of the spread of the Protestant religion
in Ireland. —( Hear.) All that will appear from the papers
it is my ietantion to move for, and I shall have to move for
others after the recess. It does appear to me that it would
be more important that the whole of this conspiracy, and the
whole of the state of Ireland, should undergo investigation
before a CommiW e of your Lordships.—( Hear. ) This
conspiracy is known to her Majesty's Government, a-id I be-
lieve the Government of Ireland has received notice of its
existence and of its operations ; but if the Noble Earl doubts
it, or if any Noble Lord doubts it, I would refer
him to the opinion of one who must be considered by the
Noble Earl a great authority, and an authority entitled to
great respect by her Majesty's Government, the opinion of
Mr. O'Connell, the great agitator of Ireland—( Laughter)
—delivered in Ireland on the 6th of Nov.---[The Noble Lord
read from a Newspaper a part of a report of Mr. O'Connell's
speech of that date, in which the Learned Gentleman was repre-
sented to say that a violent combination was spreading in Ireland
which had existed five or six times before, and which he had
always been able to put a stop to.] But I find that the
opinion of this gentleman coincides with the opinion of
the Noble Earl expressed the other night in this
House that these outrages are net of a political nature.
This is the substance or the oath which is taken by the Society
cat:lngs themselves Ribbonmen.—( Hear.) One part of
the oath imposes an obligation of seer -sy -on every Member
of the Society, that lie should he at all times ready, when
required, to tarn out and assist, at a moment's warn-
Afis O'Connell in obtaining " Justice for Ireland."
I don't say these are the words of the oath, but that is the
substance of it, and if Noble Lords will be kind enough after
the recess to enquire into these things, we shall soon be able to
ascertaht the truth or falsehood of what I have stated. But
when I consider and believe that this is the substance of the oath,
and when I bear in mind that her Majesty's Ministers, too, have
been informed or a very large exportation of arms from Liver-
pool within a very late period ; that those arms have been sent
over to Ireland ; when, I say, I consider these circumstances
I can have no doubt as to the ultimate object of that
coaspiracv which I 'believe is going on to a very great and
very alarming extent in many parts of Ireland. It has extended
itself within the last year through almost the whole of Leins-
ter, Munster, and Connaught. I think we should be able to
prove in that Committee, if we are allowed to go into it, that there
is hardly a county in which this Society is not extending it-
self, care ins* with it misery, wretchedness, and wickedness
wherever it oes. I would call your Lordship's attention to the
month of January 1830 ; it was at the time of the Catholic

Association. I remember it was at the period when the Protes-
tant gentry of Ireland were assembled in Dublin for the purpose
of petitioning your Lordships' House, which petition, in
common with the Noble Marquis near me, I had the
honour of presenting to your Lordships ; and it was about the
month of January.. I remember that that same gentleman to
whore I have already alluded, stated, on the supposition that
there was a likelihood of there being a change in his Majes-
ty's Councils about that period, that if sump a
thing took place, the sure and certain consequence
was, to use the expression of that gentleman, " a brutal and
bloody rebellion in Ireland." From that period this Ribbon
conspiracy commenced, determined to accomplish that pro-
phecy whenever a fitting opportunity should present itself.
We find now that every exertion is being made by the
individuals who have act this machine in motion, by their
speeches and ajtations, to pre, ent it from proceeding
further before the time artices. I think it my duty to state,
I.ecause I Eelieve it to Le true, that if a Committee of this
House is granted after the recess, that such eireumsieeees as
those to which 1 have referred would be fully proved. My
Lords, I am very unwilling to detain your Lordships at any
very great length, but I feel the subject is one of vast and
great importance. I feel that the people of this country are
little aware of the real state of Ireland.—( Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") They are blind to the misery, the wretched-
ness, and sufferings of the loyal people of that country, whether
they be Protestants or Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear. )
I have selected a few cases taken from the Proclama-
tions of the Noble Earl, which I beg leave to read to
your Lordships, in order to produce what I am desirous of
producing—a proper effect on your Lordship's minds as to the
state in which her Majesty's loyal and peaceable subjects are
placed under the Government of the Noble Earl. The first was
in the county of Sligo, a county which has been fora long period
remarkable for its peace and tranquillity—a county which, till
within a year ago, has been as desirable a part of the world
to reside in as any part of her Majesty's dominions. But
since the system of political agitation has commenced it has
been turned, one might almost say from a paradise into a
desert, and that which was once happiness for persons to live
in has now become a scene of distress and misery.—( Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.) This case relates to two unoffend-
ing Protestants of the name of Nl‘Kenzie and Allen. Those
two men were sent to a village in the county of Sligo in the
end of August last. They were met by a mob not far from
the - village, who dragged them off the car on which
they were travelling, beat them severely, bound
them with cords, and led them to an out-house in the village,
where they had bags or sacks over their eyes, and conveyed
them thus blindfold to the mountains. They treated them with
greatest barbarity there ; they were beaten with bludgeons, left
bound and blindfolded for some period, and afterwards taken to
a hut and left without food. While they were in this state a
poor man acquainted with Mackenzie came to them, loosed
their cords, and took them to his house. After six days and
nights confinement, and after this inhuman treatment these two
respectable Protestants were at midnight conveyed on horse-
back to the house of Mackenzie, and upon the next morning
Allen died. An inquest was held on the body of this unfortu-
nate man, and a verdict was returned that he died of wounds
inflicted on his body by persons unknown; and a reward of
501. was offered by the Government for their apprehension.
My Lords, the next case was also one that occurred in the
county of Sligo. A poor man, a Roman Catholic, of the name
of Devanny, a blacksmith, was ordered not to shoe the horse
of any Protestants, who were called Hanoverians, a name
which is now the term of reproach for all who are Pro-
testants.—( Hear, hear.) This man persisted however in
doing so, in consequence of which he was attacked by a large
party who were armed, rushed in at the door of the cot occupied
by Devanny and his wife, and commenced beating him most cru-
elly with sticks, when the wife, who thought their object was
to murder her husband threw herself over his body to protect
him ; but the password, " Spare him not," had gone forth
from the pacificators, and the husband and wife were
most brutally bruised and cut. The former lingered
till about a fortnight since, and death has put an
end to his sufferings ; the latter is in a precarious state, and
it is thought cannot long survive. The daughter,
a girl of 17, concealed herself in the house, and when she
thought the party had gone, looked out at a window
after them, and one of the party shot at her. Such is the spirit
that actuates those who form this Ribbon conspiracy ; they attack
those who oppose them, Protestants and Roman Catholics.
This affair was reported, as I understand, my Lords, officially
to the Government, but no reward has been offered, and
no notice whatever has been taken of the circumstance.
The next case I shall allude to is one from the county of
Sligo, which occurred on the 10th of November last. The
circumstances are well known to a Noble Lord, a friend
of mine, who is now present, and if I state any thing
which is not correct, I trust he will set me right. The cir-
cumstances of the case were : —A respectable Protestant,
named Fairbanks, left his borne, on the morning of the
10th of November, to take his barley to the market of
Sligo ; lie called at the house of a Roman Catholic
neighbour to take some butter for him ; within 20 minutes lie
was found a corpse on' the road-side near his cart, with two
coils of rope round his middle, and his brains beaten out with
stones. This is another proof, another instance in the chain of
facts, that the tranquillity of Ireland was in a miserable situa-
tion, and it showed the treatment to which her Majesty's sub-
jects were exposed. I could state many other similar facts
connected with this country. but I do not wish unneces-
sarily to detain your Lordships.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
I wish, however, to say a word or two as to the means taken
by the Noble Earl to prevent these outrages, and put a stop
to such scenes as these. One would suppose that when a
county like Sligo had been drawn from a state of
peace and tranquillity, in a very short period, to a
state in which crimes like these might be perpetrated
with impunity, that her Majesty's Government would send
persons to that county not influenced by party or political feel-
ings, or by any strong feeling in one way or the other, butfair,
honourable, and upright individuals, who would take care
that peace be preserved. But, my Lords, the Noble Lord
sent into that county an individual named Blake, as stipen-
diary Magistrate—an individual who had in the month of
.lanuary last been engaged in a tour with the great Agitator
himself, to whom I have already referred, in the county of
Sligo ; and who on the 25th of January dined at one of those
agitating dinners, when on the Ist of February following this
person was appointed a stipendiary Magistrate for that very
county. I am unwilling to go into the private character of that
individual, but circumstances oblige me to do so ; and I must
further state, that he -was tried by a court-martial, and dis-
missed from his Majesty's service, for highly improper con-
duct. I do not throw such weight upon that part of the
case, as upon the evil of appointing a man to that county as
a stipendiary, who was noticed for his agitation, and who
had taken a decided part in favour of those from whom all
the resulting evils have arisen. I shall now, my Lords, leave
the county of Sligo, and shall beg to call your attention
even to the City of Dublin—to the very spot where the Noble
Earl himself lives—where he lives in security in his Caele,
and with his guards around him. But the poor Protestant
farmer, to whose case I am about to allude, had not the pro-
tection of guards or even of the law. This individual whose
name was Andrew Ganley, an egg-broker, was attacked and
murdered on Sunday, the Ist November, in the densely
peopled streets of that city. A number of persons heard his
cries ; but while I admit that a murder may be perpetrated
anywhere. I beg your Lordships to mark this circumstance.
Not a single soul ran forward to aid him—neither watch-
man or constable were present to prevent this outrage.
Connected with this man there is a peculiar and striking evi
dence of the awful Ribbon system. This man had a bro-
ther in Longford, who was charged on oath by an infamous wo-
man vvi:ll hating shot an individual. He was brought to trial
but honourably acquitted. That woman was afterwards tried
for perjury and convicted, and, I believe, sentence of trans-
portation passed upon her. The whole crime of that
man was, that he was a loyal, staunch Protestant, and not
afraid to avow it. In Kilkenny and in Mayo we have similar
instances of murders. In Kilkenny a re ward of 501. was offered,
and in Mayo a re: ward of 501. for an attack upon a respectable in-
habitant of Ballina, named Strogen, who was beaten by men who
could not be ideritified—a part of the Ribbon system being to
bring men from another county where they would not be
known. The next instance is more likely to show
the state of society with respect to gentlemen
and farmers living on their estates in some
parts of Ireland. The circumstances occurred during the late
election for the County of Tipperary. I admit that an elec-
tion is a time when a greater excitement is likely to prevail, but
it is the duty of tic Government to preserve the peace, in
order that at no time any great excesses shall prevail. The
circumstances were these: in the barony of lower Ormonde,
near Clonmel, a party of electors were coming into the town,
and they were obliged to proceed as a kind of caravan, all
armed all prepared for any attack that might be made upon
them. They advanced, I don't know in what number, but as
they advanced they found the importance of the precaution they
had taken, and had they not been armed probably many of them
would never have reached the town of Clonmel. A letter
whichs I now hold in my hand will best state the facts, and I
shod take the liberty of reading a few extracts for your Lord-
ships.—[The Noble Lord here prdceeded to read extracts from
the letter, the purport of which were to bear out his statements. ]
My Lords, that it is not only in the county of Tipperary, but
in Sligo and other places, that such is the state of the coun-
try, that the gentry are unable to leave their houses unless
they are fully armed. I now come, my Lords, to the last in-
stance with which I shall trouble your Lordships on the pre-
sent occasion._( Year, hear, hear.) It is a most bar-
barous murder which took place in Tipperary on the 12th
of the present month. It is one of such agony that I should
not do justice to the subject unless I laid the details of it be-
fore your Lordships. A poor man of the name of Murphy,
residing near —, in the county of Tipperary—between
seven an] eight o'clock in the evening an armed band
of men —five in number—came to his house.
When they arrived at the house they inquired if' the
poor man Murphy was at home—his wife with ten helpless
children was in the house, and she answered, No. The
ruffians not satisfied with this answer, rushed into the
house, and carefully looked over it expecting to meet with
their victim, but they found that the answer was a
true one. The ruffians then retired without the walls,
but they waited at the back of the house. The poor wife
feeling that her husband was in danger, and fearing the real
object of those five men who had visited them at such
a most unseasonable hour, endeavoured to effect her escape
from the house by a window at the back, in order to warn her
husband of the danger in which he stood. On her endeavour
to get out of this window one of those individuals presented
his musket or his blunderbuss—pushed her back, and
stood guard over her for two hours. My Lords, it
was two hours before the victim appeared returning to
his house without any fear, my Lords, without the slightest
apprehension. My Lords, can I attempt to describe what
must have been the feelings of this poor woman, with her ten
children during those two dreadful hours—every moment
expecting the return of her husband ; and she, well-knowing

whose hands he would fall into ; my Lords, the poor victim
proceeded towards his house, when these five individuals
rushed upon him, and murdcred him before the
face of his wife and ten children. My Lords,
these are tales not of bygone days, that almost lose
their effect in the narration, but they are of every day's oc-
currence, taking place under the eye of the Noble Earl
—under the Gore rnment of the Noble Earl, and may at

tl is wry moment be taking. place. And could Ibe silent?
Should I not have been guilty of the greatest dereliction of
duty to your Lordships, to my country, and to myself, were I to
allow her Mjesty's Ministers to put into the mouth of her Ma-
jeAy that the domestic tranquillity that at present prevails in Ire-
lend presents a far our4ble opportunity of entering into the consi-
deraf on of the state of the municipal corporations of the towns
31 borrarrlls of I. elltnl—of entering into a suljc,.:-t which is
to live. more political power to those who are the instigators
of such crimes, and the very cause of them, without

elvering Fro!est the truth of sub a state-
ment ? do indeed feel that I should have been guilty
of a greet dereliet;on of duty if I had not brought this
subject forward ; and I would appeal to the Noble Earl, and
to that humanity which inhabits the breasts of most of us,
and which I cannot entertain a doubt inhabits the breast of
the Noble Earl, whether it is not imperative on him to prevent

by every means the recurrence of such scenes, and not to ap-
point to office men who are themselves engaged in those poli-
tical agitations from whence spring all these miseries. If I fail
in moving the heart of the Noble Earl I would appeal to the
Noble Viscount opposite at the head of her Majesty's Go-
vernment—a man possessed of greater power than perhaps
any Minister possessed who ever sat in this or the other House
of Parliament since the accession of the House of Hanover to
the Throne—whether r consider the circumstances attending
the situation of the Noble 'Viscount, the just popularity of the
Noble Viscount by those by whom he is surrounded, or the
present circumstances of the Throne itself—l would ask him
to exercise that power to put an end to such revolting.
scenes as I have just alluded to.—( Hear, hear.) My
Lords, I cannot help making this appeal to tte Noble Viscount,
and if I fail there I have still one consolation left—there is a
God in Heaven who feels and who sympathises for the suffer-
ings of his people—a God of justice, whose peculiar care
is the fatherless and the widow—( Hear, hear, hear)—and
who, I believe, will visit with vengeance for the scenes
of blood that are now desolating the land. I do, then,
ontreat your Lordships to take the case of Ireland into
your most serious consideration, and I shall conclude
a most painful duty, nevertheless a duty I have felt bound
to perform, by moving for certain returns which I shall
now read.—( Hear.) The Returns the Noble Lord then
moved for, compris'ed—Returns of all the Rewards
that had been offered by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for
the perpetration of murders and other crimes, from the Ist
January, 1836, to Ist December, 1837 ; the number of rewards
claimed ; the reports of the police of all offences ; the offences
that had been tried at the assizes, the number of convictions,
(distinguishing the nature of the crimes,) and the punishments
awarded.

Earl MULG R AVE rose and said—My Lords, I have paused
for a moment after the Noble Earl sat down, to see if any
Noble Lord was anxious to add any thing to the statement
of the Noble Earl, or to draw my attention to any other point
than, what he has adverted to, because I am aware that any.
thing I state will be liable to be replied to, and I have thought
it would be better for me to have heard everything that could
have been stated before I addressed the House, especially as
I shall have to occupy your Lordships' for some short time. My
Lords, I begin by stating my obligation to the Noble Earl for
bringing this question fairly forward for the consideration
of the House, because I am sure your Lordships will feel that
any man who has been the subject of the daily vituperation of
the public press, it is some consolation to find a Noble Lord
come forward with the manliness the Noble Earl has shewn
to make his charge, and then to allow the country
to judge between me and the vague accusations in
loose terms brought against me by the Noble Earl.
The Noble Lord has entered into. circumstances of what took
place within the last few months in Ireland, and he has en-
tered into those circumstances with a feeling of distress with
which I participate.—(Cheers.) But, my Lords, he says
those circumstances are attributable to my pernicious course of
government.—( Cheers.) I deny it, my Lords, and all that I
a-k of him is to compare what really did take place with the
anonymous libels with which I have been assailed for the pur-
pose of ascertaining the truth.—(Cheers.) He says that
tile Government have connived at all the insurrections that
have taken place in Ireland. I repudiate that assertion with
scorn, and I tell the Noble Lord that he ought not to make

the assertion he has done without grounds upon which it is
founded. lie says that I have appointed persons to office
merely for political purposes.—( Cheers.) Before I sit down
I shall read the names of all those that I have appointed,
and I will then safely appeal to the House whether, in the selec-
tion of those whom I have appointed, I was instigated by political
motives.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord says, from authority
according to his own statement, that there is in existence in
Ireland a conspiracy. My Lords, I would aek whether there
has not been at all times in Ireland a combination with respect
to the tenure of lind—(Cheers)—but I utterly deny that the
combination which at present exists is connected with any po-
litical object.—( Cheers.) If such a combination upon
such a subject did exist, I would take care, if it came before
:ne, to sift it to the bottom.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
The Noble Lord goes on to mention a society in Dublin. My
Lords, I took occasion, before I knew that I should have to
appear in your Lordships' House upon the annual inaugura-
tion of the Lord Mayor of Dublin, to explain to the Recorder
and the Judges that there did exist, not a political combina-
tion, but a combination among workmen of different trades,
which originated in Manchester.—( Hear, hear, hear.) My
Lords, as to any impo:tation of arms from Liverpool to
Ireland, I know not whence the Noble Earl derived
his information ; but it curt inly did not occur while I was in
Irel ind. I have been furnished with full intelligence
by those Members of the Government who remained in
Ireland, and I beg to say that I do not believe - it
to have been the case.—( Hear, hear.) My Lords, the
" tranquillity" to which allusion was made in her Majesty's
Speech, and on which were founded certain recommendations,
I conceive to mean nothing else than a general domestic tran-
quillity, founded on the absence of any insurrectionary
movement, and of any political agitation—allow me to
add, my Lords—for never was Ireland so free from pet.,
litical agitation as at present.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
It means, my Lords, that the public mind is ink,that state in
which it is more fit for the consideration of measures of a per-
manent nature, than it would be even if distracted as in for.
mer times by the odious necessity of passing Coercion Acts.
But the political tranquillity for which the Government have
ever gained or claimed credit, is not unaccompanied
altogether by occasional intervals of disturbance.—( Hear.)
On the contrary, we do not, my Lords, pretend to any
" animal magnetism" to draw the hearts of the people to
our Sovereign—(Laughter)'.—it is only by endeavouring
to induce confidence between the governed and governors.
My Lords, I do say that the moral improvement of the people
will never be complete while there exists a cause which is in
itself sufficient to alienate their affections from us, a vicious in-
gredient in the social system, which has sunk them to the degrad-
ing level I may almost say of destitution, and allow me to add
that when your Lordships come to consider the state of Ireland,
there is one measure which you must be prepared to meet with a
cool head and a bold hand, for until the security of industry is
united with security of property you can never expect any
permanent tranquillity in Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) The
Noble Lord has moved for certain returns. Now, my Lords,
there can I believe, be no objection to the production of the
whole of them. I can assure the Noble Lord that the
the Government to which I have the honour to belong desire
no concealment; indeed, if the Noble Lord can so frame his
motion as to throw more light upon the state of Ireland the
whole of the information which we have is at his service. We de-
sire that everything known to us should also be known to your
Lordships. My Lords, the constabulary officers are aware of all
the outrages which are committed—they report them to the
Government—they are also aware of the arrest of the offen-
ders. Now, the Noble Lord wishes to know bow many of
those pet sons so taken into custody are brought to justice.
Now that part of the returns I am afraid we cannot make,
but so far as we can we will giro them under the
third head.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord has
excited sympathies and feelings of compassion in your Lord-
ships' I reasts; although the cases are not so new to me as to
your Lordships, still the mere recital of such scenes has raised
feelings of deep compassion in me ' • but, my Lords, when we
talk of the tranquillity of Ireland, we must compare the
returns with those made in former times—compare the state of
crime now and at former periods. I must premise that
former returns are not so fully made out—do not contain so
many of the actual outrages—are not so complete and perfect
as the present. The first returns to which I will allude, are
those from October 1832 to March 18,3, and from October
1835 to MarCh 1836, both inclusive. It comprises mur-
ders, homicides, burnings, firing of dwellings, robbery of
arms, oaths unlawfully administered, misdemeanours, riots,
party riots, &c. In the first six months before the passing of
the Coercion Bill, the number of offences comprised in this
list amounted to 6,155, while the same list made out for the
six months of last year amount, my Lords, to only 2,308.
( Loud cheers.) Now, my Lords, when any Noble Lord of
this House states that Ireland is in a worse state than it ever was
before, surely you must suppose that he is too crelulous.
But I may be told, my Lords, that the country was more
peaceable last year than now—that the country is in a worse
state now than before. My Lords, I have here a list of the
same description of outrage as that I have formerly alluded
to, made out for the first nine months of each year for 1832.
For 1832, the number of those crimes were, 7,460 ; 1833,
6,547; 1834, 6,016; 1833, they again rose to 6,645.
In 1836 thee had again fallen to 5,384. Now, my Lords, we
come to 1837, and the number dui in,,o• the first nine months of
this year amounts to 3,784.—( LAO cheers.) It is also to be
rem emb 'red, my Lords, that there were many excitieg caus
during the last nine months, amongst which there was the
general elrction.—( Loud cheerng. ) I believe I will also
give pleasure to the Noble Duke opposite if I
prove that the convictions bear a greater proportion to the
committals, and the committals to the number of outrages,
than they have ever done upon any former occasion. Such
facts I undertake to prove, and I have no doubt that it will be
deeply gratifying to your Lordships. Now, my Lords, it is
worthy of remark upon this subject, that the Noble Duke
alluded to the Crown Solicitor's return, and stated that
from those returns it was clear that the number of parties
who were prosecuted had increased. I therefore directed
an inquiry to be made, and although I am afraid that I have
not got all these answers, yet those I have show that such is
not the case.—( Cheers.) The Noble Earl then read letters
from Mr. Drum.nond and Mr. Barrington, for the purpose of
justifying this statement. There is another result which I
wish to call to the attention of the House, which is to the return
of Inspectors General of Prisors, because upon this arguments
have been raised in the public press unfavourable to the state
of crime in Ireland. Non, my Lords, upon examining these

returns, it is most remarkable that in cases of great crimes, 1
where 40,000 bad been convicted in England for similar
offences, in Ireland only 2,000 had been convicted. but in
minor crimes Ireland had the preponderance.—Cheers.)
I will now go to some of the smaller offences, and I will show
you that they bear the same proportion. In 1832 there were
772 committals, and 203 convictions. in 1833, 826 commit-
tale, aril 303 convictions. In 1834, 520 committals, and 315
convictions. In 1835, 922 committals, and 409 convictions.
In 1836, 843 committals, and 425 convictions. From January
to December 1837, 547 committals, and 229 convictions. In
the course of six years, according to this statement, the com-
mittal.; had (increased, and this is the first year in which they
have diminished. What does this prove my Lords ? That the
laws are administered with greater vigour, and that the consta-
bulary are improved ; and let me cl;s,:irve, my Lords, that a proof
of this i.nproveme-nt is to be found in the very part stated by
the Noble Lord with respect to the proclamations in the Ga-
zette, for it is the constabulary ofli..er who recommends
the proclamation to the Government, and the increase in
the number of those proclamations onTv evinces the greater
disposition of Government to bring offenders to justice.—
( Hear.) The result which I have read to your Lordships is,
I contend perfectly consistent—fur the diminution of crime
and the increase of proclamations are facts, from which you
can alone draw a favourable inference towards Government.
My Lords, on enquiringst the Home Office, I found that the
Irish returns included all offences tried at Petty Sessions—
summary convictions, every one of which were excluded from
the English returns; and when we got a corresponding return

from the Home Office we found the summary convictions
amounted to 53,464. Certainly that applies to a state of law
which in Many respects does not exist in Ireland. The Game
Laws, the Vagrancy Laws, &c., but even taking off all that
we ought to add at least 20,000 to the 14,000 included in the
English returns, which makes 34,000, leaving to Ireland only
18,000.

The Duke of WELLINGTON was understood to say
these returns are for six months only.

Earl MULGR A VE (we believe) replied in the affirmative.
My Lords, considered relatively to the population, the pro-
portion is in England one to a thousand, in Ireland one to
eight hundred. The proportion, therefore, is so far unfavourable
to Ireland as four to five. But, my Lords, who that consi-
ders the state of society in Ireland, and the manner in which
it has been treated, and the circumstances (I make no political
allusion) existing in the destitution of masses of the population
can think that this is after all an unfavourable return ?—( Loud
cheers.) One other explanation, my Lords, as to these re-
turns. 340 are stated as having been charged with mur-
der. Of these 274 were found innocent or the bills
were ignored, 22 only were sentenced to death, and f,rom 40
to 50 were discharged. This seeming absurd, I found the
mistake was, I am sorry to say, a very common one in Ire-
land, where death often results from casual violence, the con-
fusion of manslaughter with murder. Thus it was that the
number of persons whi) suffered the punishment of death
from murder out of the whole 340 was only 22. —( Hear. )

There is another observation connected with the large

increase of committals. It had been the observation of
many intelligent gentlemen, both Crown Counsel and
Crown Solicitors, connected with the administration of jus-
tice in Ireland, that in proportion as the country was less
disturbed minor offences had increased. In 1835, the num-
ber of Whiteboy offences was 4`25 ; in 1836, 280 ; and in the
present year abdtt 169. I have so far, my Lords, disposed of
those general returns, and I come to what the Noble Lord states
as the effect of the general election on the tranquillity of
Ireland. The effect of the general election is twofold. One
of the effects, which was direct and most objectionable,
and did not extend so far, was in some of those cases to
which the Noble Lord has alluded, in which parties
were directly molested for their votes by the popular party.
The other effect was the extent t • which it has disorganised
again the relation between landlord and tenant. With regard
to the first effect of the general election, the noble Lord has
alluded to the county of Sligo. The Noble Lord has also
alluded—and I bad hoped that the name of that unfortunate
gentleman would not again be brought forward—but he has also
alluded to the case of Mr. Blake, whom he states was most
improperly made a stipendiary magistrate of the County Sligo.
My Lords, with respect to my havin sent Mr. Blake to Sligo,
I will candidly own that there was a very great difficulty in finding
a sufficient number of stipendiary magistrates to attend the seve-
ral contested elections at the same time, and when I returned
to Ireland and found that Mr. Blake hal been already sent
to Sligo. I did, :perhaps, think that of the whole list of sti-
pendiary Magistrates (for it should be observed that there never
had been any sustained imputation against him in the discharge
of his duty) that Mr. Blake was the one who should have
some assistance in the discharge of his duty. Major Crossley
and Major Brown were accordingly sent there. Now, with
regard to his appointment, the Noble Lord states that he was
disgraced—
Earl RODEN—No, no —dismissed.
Earl M ULGRAVE—I understond the Noble Earl to say
that he had been dismissed his Majesty's service for dishonour-
able conduct; but all I can say is, that Mr. Blake was re-
. __

commended to me by a Noble Friend of mine, then acting as
Vice-Lieutenant of the county of Mayo. by a relative of my own

( Lord Dillon), and by many other gentlemen. I ascertained that
Mr. Blake had acted as a magistrate for the county of Mayo for
several years, and I understood that his conduct had been w ithout
reproach ; upon this information, and upon these t ecommenda-
tions, I did appoint him. Subsequently to the election for Sligo,
a report for the first time reached me that Mr. Blake had for-
merly been dismissed from the Army by sentence of a court-
martial. I then took a step which I thought I was right in
taking. I applied to my Noble Friend at the bead of the
Army for a report of that court martial. I read that report,
. .

and, conceiving that an Officer who had been thus dismissed
her Majesty's service, ought not to be placed in the situation of
a Stipendiary Magistrate, I cancelled Mr. Blake's appointment. I
should however state that I heard that the whole case had been in-
vestigated ten years since by the late Lord Chancellor, Lord
Manners, on his being recommended for the Commission of
the Peace ; and that Lord Manners had decided that he was
fit to hold it. I repeat, however, that after perusing the pro-
ceedings of the Cotirt AlSrtial, I decided differently from Lord
Manners, and Mr. Blake has accordingly been dismissed.—
( Cheers.) In closing finally the case of Mr. Blake, I must ob-
serve that, so far as his conduct could be noticed as a magistrate,
no fault could be found with him.—( Hear, hear.) - Charges
were made against him by the Honourable Member for Sligo,•
and with the facility with which I have on all occasions
given to both parties an opportunity of bringing them
forward I granted an investigation, on the application of Co.
lonel Perceval, without difficulty or hesitation. Col. Shaw
Kennedy went down to Sligo y by my desire, but Colonel
Perceval declined to proceed with his charges. I believe
that as a Magistrate Mr. Blake's conduct was without
reproach. Having examined all the features of
his case, I considered it was not proper
that Mr. Blake, having been dismissed from
his Majestyt service (in ignorance of which I had appointed
him), should retain his situation, and I directly dismissed him.
Now the Noble Lord alluded considerably to Allen. I refer
to that again only to show your Lordships how misstatements,
when they are not made face to face—what party zeal
will do when parties make charges and when the person
charged has not an opportunity of answering them—what
erroneous impressions may prevail in the, mind on such occa-
sions. There is a certain Colonel, a Member in the other
House, but it is not as a Member of the other House I have
now to do with him, but as an itinerant speaker through-
out the country—Colonel Connolly.—( Cries of Hear, hear.)
I saw that he had made a statement that Allan had been
murdered, and that the Government had taken no more notice
of it than if he had been a dead dog..—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") Now, really, was that a statement that Colonel
Conolly ought to have made unless he had been perfectly
certain of the fact -? What was the fact? The murder of
Allen took place in the end of August. On the 6th of Sep-
tember not only had the reward been offered, but money had
been also offered for private information, which led to the
appresension of—(as we understood the Noble Earl).—
a Roman Catholic Clergyman. He was immediately
arrested—there was no impediment in the coarse of
justice - the whole of the circumstances attending the
ease were investigated, and I will say no more upon it, as
it still stands for farther trial, than that I believe every
party was perfectly convinced that this Mr. Spellman
was not any farther implicated, than that he ought to
have been, as it was, admitted to bail. Now the Noble
Earl alluded to another most lamentable case in Sligo, which,
with every case of the sort, of course requires every investigation
immediately to be made into it. But neither in this, nor in any
other case, will I admit that the man was murdered from
any feeling with which Protestantism had anything what-
ever to do. Colonel Conolly, I believe, has stated
that no Protestant life is safe in Ireland. Why, my
Lords, I have the authority of many, who attend the
assizes in Ireland, to state that they believe there
is no such thing as that of a man being murdered for his reli-
gion. A man has been very often murdered from that
combination which existed in reference to the tenure of land ;
as lie has come into possession of that land he may have been
murdered, but it has been simply a coincident that he has
been a Protestant. In reference to Bailey I believe he was
murdered by one who it was supposed thought to succeed him.
A gentleman who has had great experience has stated
that it had been asserted that homicides had chiefly taken
place in Ireland on account of religion, but he
denied that such was the case. I do not believe
that any person has been murdered in Ireland on account of
his religion. The Noble Lord has alluded particularly to
the county of Sligo--( Hear, hear)—and to show that
what has taken place in that county has not escaped
my attention, I will read to your Lordships a communication.
which I have reiceived with respect to that county. [The
Noble Earl then read a letter which he had received with
respect to the state of Sligo, from Colonel Shaw Kennedy.]
Now, my Lords, hi the month of September, such was
the state of the case.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
threw out something. like a sneer at my conduct
_he seemed to think that I had not taken proper
measures for putting an end to such a state of things. My
Lords, as the result of my endeavours, I am happy to say, that I
received not only assurances from Colonel Shaw Kennedy that
tranquillity was rapidly extendin a., but that the decrease, as I was
shortly after able to inform my Noble F.riend Lord J. Russell,
was one-fourth. Then, my Lords, with respect to the case of
Allan and M'Kenzic, though I cannot but express my feeling
of horror at the atrocity, still it must not be forgotten entirely
that kidnapping is not confined to that part of Ireland. In the
county of Kilkenny such things have been, while at the late
assizes for Sligo there had been two convictions for the
kidnapping of two voters, who would have voted against
the Conservative interest, as it was called. Now, as
that plan was countenanced by persons of education,
there was some excuse for the ignorant, for he believed the
parties did not mean to murder when they first went out. Then,
my Lords, with respect to the effect of the General Election,
their Lordships must recollect how much the tranquillity of that
county depended upon the competition for land—how very diffe-

rent was the situation of landlord end tenant in that country and
in England. In that country land has become a necessary of
Land, in that case, becomes a necessary of life, and a hard
bargain is driven by .the tenant to obtain it. I will not
pursue the subject further. I will not go into the so-
cial relations which establish a kindly feeling between
tha landlord and the tenant in England, and which
are so different in their results in Ireland. Of this, however,
I am sure, that in Enitland in most cases there is sympathy
between the landlord and tenant without dependence; and
that in Ireland there is dependence without sympathy.
--(Hear, bear. ) With respect to the last election, I can
not avoid alluding to the conduct of certain individuals, who
stood for different districts, in which they knew well they had
no chance of success.—( Hear, hear.) Ido not for a moment
mean to contend that these persons had not a right to do
so if they pleased; but I s,y thr.r, taken in cooecction
wiih the unconstitutional threats ti,-re held out, such conduct
na zst tenet to ~li-turb the country.—( Hea,, hear.) Recollect,
my Lords, the situa'ion of the pdpular party at that period,
The popular party were then identified with the English
Government, and English interests.—( Cries of Hear, hear.)
Three years ago the whole country resounded with the cry of
repeal. Where is it now? There is not a murmur on the
subject from one end of the country to the other. —( Hear,
hear.) They are perfectly satisfied with the English.
Government. —( Cheers.) Upon this subject I must say that
it is to the landlords of Ireland we must look for the mainte-
nance of the tranquillity of that country_( Hear, hear)--and
there bad been certain rumours of the conduct of cer-
tain landlords in that country which I shall be very
glad to bear explained. I see a Noble Earl opposite,
' and a report has I cached me connected with the parish of
Kinneigh, in the county of Cork. I am aware this is a
very delicate subject. I know that a Noble Lord has a
right to do what he pleases with his own ; but when
considering the effect this may have on the tranquillity of Ire-
land, I ant bound to say, my Lords, that any wholesale system
of depopulation founded on the religious opinions of a body of
people cannot for amoment be talerated. I doubt not the Noble
Lord has been misrepresented. I therefore give him an op-
portunity of explaining this report. I have not got
the papers here, but I am sorry to say that this
is not a peculiar instance. I have a letter which,
after I have made inquiries, I believe to be true.
[The Noble Earl here read a letter addressed to a principal
tenant, as we understood, of the Noble Lord to whom he al-
luded, refusing to renew his lease—not on the ground of any
doubt as to his security, but of his being a Roman Catholic,
and concluding in these terms :—" The Roman Catholics have
given him every opposition, both with regard to the payment
of tithes and in eery election for the county of Wexford,
and he is nearly determined not to admit persons of that per-
suasion as his tenants in future.] My Lords, that letter was
accompanied with a statement, that so complete was
the system of extermination and persecution carried on against
the Roman Catholic tenants, that many of them were unable
to find even a night's shelter. And I intreat your Lord-
ships, when in leaving this House you are exposed even for
a moment to the cold air, to reflect upon the sufferings of
these people—aged men bed-ridden, if still they had a bed
left, women in child-birth, and infants hungry and
helpless, ejected in this wholesale manner, and ex-
posed to all the inclemencies of the weather.
My Lords, if such a state of things exist, I will say let those
only who think such things are right for such causes
--let them, and them only—talk merely of the crime,
and think not of the misery of Ireland. I would say more, if
any such system is pursued—if any depopulation of the tenantry
on the ground of their religion is attempted in Ireland-1 will
still labour on ; I will still do the best I can to tranquillise
that distressed country ; the greater the difficulty the more
time I will devote, the more energy I will exert for that pur-
pose ; but I will tell such persons I consider them more powerful
for evil than,l should be for good—(The remainder of the sen-
tence was drowned by cheering from the Ministerial benches. )
Much of the Noble Lord's complaint was, that the present
state of Ireland was new, and makes that a series ground of
accusation against the Government. I think the Noble Lord
is bound not only to prove that I am answerable for that, but
to prove it is a state of things that did not exist before.—
( Hear.) Complaints of a similar nature have heed made of
the state of Ireland, not merely within these last few years,
but in the year when the Noble Duke opposite first held the of-
fice of Secretary of State for Ireland. The Noble Duke brought
in a Bill, and stated his reasons for so doing. So did Mr.
Peel in the year 1817, stating the evil which this Bill pro-
posed to remedy had not arisen on a sudden, but that it had
existed for a considerable time ; indeed for the whole time he
formed pert of the Irish Government, and that this state
of things had existed in the year 1814.—)Hear, hear.)
My Lords, 1 know nothing except these unfortunate isolated
cases. Sir Robert Peel goes on then to use words of praxes.
cal wisdom, which might well be applicable to the present
time. He says, " Time alone, the prevalence of a kindly
paternal Government, and the extension of education, are the
remedies which I propose."—( Hear.) Surely, my Lords,
when Sir Robert Peel cordially concurred with the Noble
Duke opposite in 1829 in carrying that measure, without which
no paternal Government could be accepted by the people of that
country, surely, my Lords, I may be excused for endeavouring
to work out these principles. What time had been wasted
from 1816 to 1829 in endeavouring to tranquillize that un-
happy country, when, much to his credit, Sir Robert Peel re-
traded his former opinions—(Cheers)—and granted the mea-
, sure for which that people so long struggled—if Sir Robert
Peel looked to the progress of education as affecting the cha-
racter of the people, he would certainly take care that that
education was acceptable to their feelings. —( Cheers.) The
same principle which had induced him in 1829 to co-operate
with the Noble Duke opposite, had, in 1835, induced
him to propose an increased grant to the National
ey:tem of Education in Ireland. In referring to these points,
my Lords, it is rather curious to observe hew in all ages and
in all times a contrast has been presented as regarded the state
of Ireland between that which wise men said was good for it
in their closets, and that which statesmen carried into execution.
My attention has been lately called to a few words of great
authority on this point. My Lords, Lord Bacon, speaking
of Ireland, strangely enough uses expressions which, remote
as is the period, different as are the circumstances, will strike
your Lordship's as applicable to the present time.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord here proceeded to read
an extract from a letter of Lord Bacon to his secretary,
in which he alludes to the distracted state of Ireland.
He then, my Lords, regrets the shedding of blood, and states
that it is the Queen's intention to bring the subject imme-
diately before her Parliament. My Lords, I will venture to
say that there is not a native in Ireland who does not feel the
great kindness of her Malesty in taking the earliest opportu-
nity to express her desire for the welfare of her subjects
in Ireland. I will only refer, my Lords, to one other
document for the purpose of illustrating this subject —it
is from a very different person to the last, and in a
different age ; it came into my hands accidentally, but it
is, in my opinion, most applicable to the present time ;
it is a letter, my Lords, from the great Lord Chesterfield,
which was found in the Castle of Dublin shortly after that
Noble Earl had given up the Lord Lieutenancy of that coun-
try. In that letter the Noble Earl stated that he was confi
dent that lenity towards the Papists made no alterwion
whatever in their religion or their sentiments.—(llear. )
Now, I tell the Noble Lord that is exactly what I have done.
I am accused, like Lord Chesterfield, of lenity to Papists,
and like that Noble Lord, I will continue to merit the accu-
sation. " I was determined to proscribe no set of people what-
ever, and I am determined to be governed by none,"—so said
my Lord Chesterfield, and so say I. The Noble Lord oppo-
site, in one part of his speech, alludes to an authority to which
he says I ern bound. My Lords, I am bound to no authority
but my own. Ido not conceive that in consulting the wishes
of an entire people I have given ground to the Noble Lord
for saying that I would bow to the authority of any particular
person. I require, nay Lords—l care not what insinuations
may be thrown out against me—l require nothing but
the convictions of my own conscience throughout the entire
of the time which I represented the Crown in the sister'
country to sustain me against such charges. Mr. O'Connell,
it has been stated, monopolizes the patronage of the Irish
Government. My Lords, I utterly deny that. Mr. O'Con-
nell, like every other member of Parliament, requiring informa-
tion from the Government, has, I admit, had several communica-
tions with it ; but the applications of Mr. O'Connell I can con-
fidently state have been fewer than those of any other Member
of Parliament. Neither, my Lords, has Mr. O'Connell been
consulted upon any one appointment of the Irish Government.
But, like Lord Chesterfield, I. would proscribe no man. It
hes been the taunt against me that I have treated Mr.
O'Connell like any other Member of the House of Commons.
So I have my Lords, and so I will continue to do. ( Hear,
and cheers.) But I utterly deny tlfat the Government
has been controuled by him, or has consulted with him,
as to any of the appointments that have been made, and as
to the coincidence of his communications with the Government,
I am far from disclaiming that, which instead of being a
reproach to it, I consider a very great advantage. —( Cheers. )
That I ever acted upon the authority of anybody but upon my
own responsibility, I utterly deny in the face of the Noble
Earl who threw out the taunt. The Noble Loyd is perfectly
aware that on all occasions on which I have an opportunity of
addressing your Lordships I have no hesitation in expressing
whatever I feel, and on this occasion I take the liberty of re-
calling the Noble Lord's recollection to an expression, which
if accurately reported, was one of the most unjust im-
putations which has been made in any quarter through-
out the party warfare that has been going on for
,the
last two or three years. My Lords, it so pleased the Con-
servatives. of Ireland to hold a meeting not long since, into
which no reporters were admitted but those of their own way
of feeling; therefore what was reported of that meeting would
not only be nothing but what was said, but also but what the
meeting wished to have known. It was at a period of this
kind—and I really feel these are subjects too serious to be
made the subject of discussion in any political assembly—l
feel that, in asking fur an explanation in your Lordships'
House, how much more I feel it when such subjects are brought
forward at political party meetings, amid midnight revels. It
was said that the Government was vested in Infidels 1 1 My
Lords, do I speak too strongly? I feel the Noble Lord's con-
science must have already reproached him. What could he
mean by such a statement in midnight revels ?
Lord RODEN-7( As we understood)—l never made use
of such an expression.
Earl MULG R A VE—Then lam perfectly satisfied. All
I can say is, that those words were reported, and that all re-
. porters were excluded the meeting except those favourable to the
views of the parties assembled. I should therefore have concluded
from the report, that such words had been used ; but as the Noble
Lord has disclaimed them, I now feel assured that he did not state
any such thing, and lat once dismiss it from my mind, because
I am persuaded the Noble Lord feels nothing could excuse
such an irredeemable imputation as one of that kind would be.
I am, my Lords, at a loss to understand the nature of the
charge which the Noble Lord has brought against me. I have
endeavoured to prove that Government has done all it could to

..,ii
...._.,_._,---
~o nrON e
• to

rs
neutralize all those tendencies to crime.
I have
decreasing.
your Lordships that the outrages are vastly
to orumit-
I ha% e ov, d that the proportion of cenvic:ionsou
__es has
tals—of committals to the actual number of ir_a_g. Lards,
greatly increased since former times. I have now, my
s I retaio
in conclusi ,n, to say that so long a- ;it that
. ~
•
the co ofidence of her Majesty, I shall ce , consider
course which I have adopt ..(1, and which I ej. I have
best for the country which is entrus:ed to my elita:rg:ibutirn of
no other object in view, my Lords than the "; 16, I
impartial justice to all. In the words of Mr. PeeL ut
a, lovea
ill trust to the confidence of a people in a patern..!.t.. dale
meta. and the diffusion of education for the tranou:.!i2eYna one,
country; and with Lord Chesterfield, I would prose 1° rs
v Lordo'
nor be governed by any man. My only object, ins
„seace of
in the humble sphere of my utility to cherish the e°:ellru,i„ the
my S-nefeiza, end endeavour to usiasantdst
dearts of the Lish people. The Noloie shtierci°An
loud el.cers.
Ties Hari of BANDON said that, not
of attending to newspaper reports himself, and nehor, there'
scending to answer them when they attacked him:
in
of the
fore, thought that he had some reason to cornP'"'e accounts
Noble Noble Earl for not having produced more authenti
os shoe-
d him than he had done. He (the Earl of Bando srelati4
beioag
not trouble their Lordships with a detail of anYihiilf only say
to the arrangements of his own estates, but wouldpot to
briefly on the subject of the statement made in restPos,ad
that every one of the 247 individuals whom I
e'_',diag
in
vetl_teeotet.
charged with turning adrift were at that moment r
their respective houses.—( Hear, hear, and laughter)
byi` the
for that reason that he thought himself ill-treatedsuch
Noble Earl in being called on by him to answer anY
allegation. alluded
The Earl of MULGR AVE said that at the time thoe
_id the
to the report then contradicted by the Noble Earl, h for
House he did not believe it, and that ho brought it forty
.al_, for
the purpose not of charging the Noble Lord with it, but
the purpose of giving him an opportunity to contradic
vite from
Lord DONOUGHMORE would undertake to pros,
there
the police report s which he head in his hand, not only th t t
that that
at that time a vast amount of crime in Ireland, Du. state
crime was on the increase. He begged leave distinctly to
yep
alulg'"
that he made n° charge against the Noble Earl (r
rend,
opposite of causing the increase of crime to which he vigor-
by neglecting to carry the common law of the land in°e"sary to
ously and strenuously into effect. It would only be 'l„ec, mei W
state what the convictions were at the last assizes at taionori has
shoe: their Lord-hips how very efficiently the Noble Earl and
pushed the common law. Out of 1,131 eases brought le
~to,
for adjudication, there were 866 convictions. thatu'
Of
oireadf
her 25 were sentenced to death, and six had beet' toted
executed ; the sentence of the remaining 19 being e°°3 ve-
to transportation for life. In addition to these, 86
ot,_ tl.a'oe,
suns were sentenced to different periods of transP° Noble
With such evidence before them, coald oaf, see-
Lord in that House, or any body out of itlied the
push ture to assert that the Noble Earl had not '
site
common law of Ireland as far it would go ? But lano;i-tsi
of these severe examples, what was the state of the evaith:
at the present moment ? It was true that in August, n°oty of
standing the excitement of the general election, the e°ti mars
Tipperary was extremely quiet—only one man belngof the
dered ; but that man was murdered close to the door d Do,
county Member (Mr. Sheil), and, as far as he (Ler bv the
noughmore) could learn, no reward was ever offered_tivihst
Government for the apprehension of the murderer. Buarieed
they chiefly complained of in Tipperary was, that, and
bodies of men were allowed to parade the country lease
night ; and the consequence was, that the comparative ac
coed
of crime which existed in August, was in October rotate
to a vast and most alarming extent; and he regretted Iwo
that it was still upon the increase. In October seven The
beings were murdered, and ten desperately wounded• ot of
Noble Earl would admit that this was a great anituidesere
crime in so short a period, particularly when the 'wore
examples made at the assizes only the July previous_ach
considered. As an additional proof that crime was net ';ies
on the decrease, he might mention the number of CO"!e tbe
at the quarter sessions. There could not he found:leant
whole world a more efficient public officer than the a So' 10
barrister for the county of Tipperary. He was a g°bear,
Catholic, but belonged to neither party.—( Hear, ioto
hear.) He put the law strongly and vigorouslYssioe,
effect; he presided over the Courts of Quarter Se' or
whose powers had of late years been greetlY the
larded. At the quarter sessions held in October, 1834 45.
number of Convictions before the Assistant Barrister was' 1.01
At the quarter sessions held in October, 1837, the nur°''.hhe
convictions was, as he understood, 85. That did root looishioh
a decrease of crime. Only three days before the time at whose
her Majesty's Ministers put into the Speech from the I„est,
the declaration of the tranquillity of Ireland there was a ";ary,
ing of twenty-eight Magistrates of the county of TiPPe that
to take into consideration the state of one barony in the
county, the barony of Clanwilliam. He begged to ea" ha,
particular attention of the Noble Viscount opposite to the per
ratter of the gentlemen who composed that meeting. as
haps the Noble Viscount thought that they were merely of
assembly of Conservatives, got together for the Purr'stehete
injuring him and his party. No such thing. Among heir
were three highly-respectable Catholics, amen who did tad
duty well and with strictness, great landed proprietors, base
friends to the Noble Viscount and his party. Among t sle
Magistrates was the Honourable Member for Cashel' or
(Lord Donoughmore) held in his hand a copy of the to
morial addressed by the Magistrates on this oceasielate
the Lords Justices of Ireland, with reference to the savi
of the barony of Clanwilliam.—( Hear.) [The Noble rof
here read the document, which described a nuMbehri
crimes, comprehending murders and other outrages, w •ticlo
had been committed in the barony, declared that itl43,
decided opinion of the Magistrates neither life nor prop the
was secure in the district, adverted to the disposition °' /set
peasantry to obtain and secure arms, and prayed that the the
of the sth and 6th William IV. might be put in foreei the
common law being insufficient for the preservation
public peace ; and also prayed for an extra police and'tie
tary force.] So much for the internal peace and (Wight
tranquillity which prevailed in Ireland ! Those twentYlthe
Magistrates distinctly alleged that, in their opinion, nes'eal
life nor property was safe ; and he (Lord Donoughinereithat
perfectly satisfied from the police reports in that barollYsacts,
in giving that opinion they were perfectly justified by the
The Noble Lord proceeded to read from the police reper`tiais
account of a number of outrages that had taken place du tho
the last seven weeks in the barony of Clanwilliatn. C tee
9th of October, two shots were fired into the house of Je his
Sadler, Esq., and a threatening notice was posted °" are
gate, menacing him with death if he came forward Oand, gate
information respecting an individual who had committed ;Do
offence. On the 12th of October, at night, as Henry Quloa
Esq., was returning froin Tipperary, he was fired °tsar a
wounded with a horse pistol ; being, in fact, mistaken,' the.
Mr. Curathew, a gentleman of Considerable propertY tnharl
county of Tipperary, who, during the last four years'estate,
never been able to venture out of his house, or his own she
without being accompanied by an armed party. v°tored,
19th of October, the house of a Mr. Crotty was several
in the night by an armed band, who fired 9to
shots, broke the windows, and affixed threatening netice Dos
the gates. On the night of the 19th also a threatenitie,
lice was posted on the gate of Henry Quillen, Esq., filed'
him to turn away one of his men, for no reason that 51'.' sold
lan could discover but that he was a person whom be to
trust. On the night of November 2d, a notice was awl;
the gates of Mr. Sadler, ordering him to have nothing te of
with a person therein named, and a shot was fired into Otis°
his windows On the night of the 9th of November a boat
was affixed to the door of George Ford, Esq., orderingroher
to discharge some of his men. On the 12th of Nqued 1)1
the houses of James Hogan and others were a'ttac-h-ro"
armed meta who beat Hogan most severely. They also orio„
.the doors of the other houses and beat their iiirnate,ss'ing
to
several shots, and warning the inhabitants to have a°'"?;hi"
do with a person of the name of Tramalce. The
barons',
Lord proceeded to state other recent outrages in the ea °`
(of Clanwilliam, especially the barbarous murder of a urea
the name of Dennis Murphy. He then went on to
oe.Joiso
that he trusted he load said enough to satisfy their iraratioe
that the Magistrates were well-founded in the dee hood
which they had made to the ,Lords Justices, that in the life'
of Clanwillism there was no security for propertY or
and. that the common law was not sufficient, mor° ore;
cially to prevent the obtaining and concealing et 0 th
gistered arms. What was the law with referenee
wa's poi
offence to ithich he had just adverted? It to go.
nished by either a fine of 101., or commitment
note;
for two months. Now, that was a punishment uses
festly insufficient for the offence, especially seeing the t that
which the arms had been applied. He had no (10"`..)015 itet,
would become absolutely necessary to bring i
.0 an A.0.'.11
with provisions similar to those contained in the
biod ace;
duced into the other House by Lord Stanley. I!
objected to that measure that it would be oppresseo:ethat ato,
oppressive ? It' he recollected rightly, it provid d
yed 0101
person charged with being in possession of unregistd twit, ja
should be brought before the assistant bat sister, :nt.o. seq.!,
convicted, lie might be sentenced to transportatio __coatius,
years. But that sentence could not be carried into .e,.• heir'
laid so,
without the
evidence having been previously_ r ioing
the Lord Lieutenant, who, if he saw reason for u
might exercise the Royal prerogative of mereY•
d as
aware that the Noble Viscount mig I)
ht object to
co__ a" The
Parliament to trust Government with such .w c oposifi
Noble Earl might also think he should lose some Pita sho,_ua
in Ireland by such a step. Be might think that be
of tiacss
not be so much the idol of the midnight snurder
_sae) ato
country. Of this, however, he ( Lord Donought°
to eetvcroot
perfectly convinced, that if the Noble Earl were w 0;_1,
that house to acknowledge that the commono4;e voiltlor)r
strong enough to meet existing circumstances (a ,n
ars had! 10'
s _ ksa
admitted that no man during the last twentys Noble 100
vigorously pushed the common law than the„eight, dr
ver he foto in
and to demand additional powers, whate in a ten
in popularity with one party, he would gal!?
at gen: ea°,
gree with another. 'There was not a resides'. ID donsar
the county of Tipperary who would not alrno day in 11;
v got
worship him ; for at present they went ever.
d
ssh ha d in
their lives. ions care tf
The Earl of MULGR AVE in his Prevaat hod noun ,
addressed lois observations to any thing te.on to that &betel;
the county of Tipperary, because no allusi
sd tbe t
ny begaie bi°
load been made by the Noble Lord who P
o°sore 'le her °ire
and he (Lord Mulgrave) had paused b.
.°t elorrid
defence of his Government in order to gi"`:_dditionait 1)0.4
Lord an opportunity of bringing forward anY tlia,vobie
against that Government. He certainly the !scoot/hi,
have been a much more convenient course in the make old
who had just spoken, standing as he aese taa it wot
Tipperary, had availed himself of that_ Ilia
r lateePirroatn, that
,P,,ert
statement respecting the barony of advert teld, hooehad
have enabled him (Lord Mulgrave) to He log varl
in his former address to their LordshiPs•
the Nob'
brought down the documents to which