The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COtIIfONS, JuNE 19.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before four o'clock.
Mr. CAMPBELL presented certain papers from the
India House.
On the motion of Mr. WELBY, the Committee on
the Grantham Small Debts Bill was ordered to be revived.
On the moticn of Mr. BROTHERTON, the Lords
amendments to the Leeds and Manchester Railway Bill
were agreed to. The Hon. Gentleman then presented a
petition against, as we understood, the second *reading of
the Ship Propeller Company Bill.
The Report on the Norwich Improvement Bill was
brought up, and the Bill read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Sir E. KNATCHBULL the South
Eastern Railway Deviation Bill (No. 2) was read a third
time and passed.
The second reading of the Ship Propeller Company
Bill was, at the suggestion of Mr. BROTHERTON,
postponed for a week.
DIVORCE BILLS.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN moved to discharge the
Order of the Day for going into a Committee of the whole
House on Alison's Divorce BjII, on the 2Gth ii.stant, ai,d
to commit the Bill to Mr. Ord and the South Northum-
berland List. He made this motion with a view of doing
away with the necessity of taking evidence at the bar of the
House on Divorce Bills, and wosld suggest the propriety
of referring all such Bills, for the future, to a Seleet Com-
mittee, who should report as usual.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER would suggest the propriety of
appointing a Committee at the cenirneecemtnt of every
future Session, fur the purpose of taking Diverce Bills into
consideration.
Mr. FRESHFIELD thought that it would be better
to refer all these cases to a Judicial Committee, who were
acquainted with the laws of evidence, but he objected to a
Bill having reference to no locality being referred to a
particular list.
Mr. GREEN could not but regret that a question of
so much importance should be discussed in so thin a House ;
because it was, in fact, a proposition for changing the
whole practice of the House upon these Bills.
Under such eh cumstanees he thought it would
be desirable that her Majesty's Ministers should
be present, together with the Member for the
Tower Hamlets, who, he understood, had proposed a
scheme on this subject. For his own part, he coasidered
the proceedings of the House on these Bills extremely dis-
graceful, and should be hlppy to see them put an end to,
but in the present state of the House he trusted that his
Honourable friend would postpone the consideration of
this subject till there was a more full House.
Mr. W. PATTEN had no objection to postponing the
motion of which he had given notice. The reason why he
had adopted the present course was in order to prevent
the parties being. put to expense.
Mr. .ESTCOU RT thought that no disadvantage would
be felt by the parties by postponing the Committee for a
few days.

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The motion was then agreed to and the order for going
into Committee discharged.
On the motion of Mr. VILLIERS STEWART, the
River Moy Navigation Bill was read a third time and
passed.

Petitions against the Government plan of National
Education, and praying her Majesty to rescind the Order
in Council for the appointment of Education Commis.
sioners by—Mr. Tatham Egerton from Chester ' • by Mr.
Bcw,s, from Dudley ; by Sir C. B. Vere, from Lowestoff,
Tosvcester, and several other places; by Mr. W. Patten,
from Warrington and Chester; by Colonel Sibthorp, from
the City of Lincoln, in which the petitioners stated that
although the original scheme was nominally withdrawn by
the Government, they feared it would be renewed by some
subterfuge and trick, if not unworthy the men, at least un-
worthy the station they occupied; by Captain Alsa,ger,
from Kingston-upon-Thames, and several other places in
Surrey ; by Mr. Christopher, from five places in Lincoln
shire ; by Mr. R. Hill, from 1,000 females of Shrews-
bury ; and by Sir R. Bateson, from Londonderry.
Mr. CRAWLEY presented a petition in favour of the
Government plan of national education.
Mr. M. PARKER presented a petition from the County
Palatine of Lancaster against the County Courts' Bill.
Referred to the Committee.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord A. CONYNG HAM presented a petition from
the Mayor and Corporation of C snterbury in favour of
the Government plan of national education.
Mr. HAWES presented a petition to the same effect
from the Delegates of the three Protestant Denominations
in London and its environs.

Petitions against the 13111 were presented by Lord
Grimstone, Mr. Codrington, Mr. Borroughs, Mr. Clive,
and Lorel Eliot.

Mr. Blackstone presented two petitions against educa-
tion from Warrington ; Mr. Bagge, live from Norfolk ;
Lord C. Manners, from Ashby-de-la. Zouch ; and Mr.
Round, from Essex.
Petitions in favour of education were presented by M .
T. Duncombe, from Finsbury ; Mr. T. H. Berkeley,
from Bath; and Lord Melgund, from Harwich.
Mr. 'F. DUNCOMBE presented four petitions from
Finsbury, in favour of a penny postage; and a petit:on
from a person earned Williams, in favour of a scheme to
enable the working classes to purchase annuities.
Mr. RAIK ES CURRIE presented a petition from
the ladies of Northampton, in favour of a penny postage.
Mr. W. Duncombe, Lord Dungannon, Sir C. Knight-
ley, Lord Stanley, and Sir Thornai Fremantle, presented
petitions against the Government plan of education.
Lord DUNGANNON presented a petition from Chep-
stow, against any further grant to Maynooth College.
Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from a con-
gregation in Edinburgh, in favour of Church extension
in Scotland.

Sir W. FOLLETT presented a petition from Exeter,
praying. the House to present an address to her Majesty
to rescind the Order in Council of the 17th of April.
Sir It. INGLIS presented petitions from St. George
the Martyr, from Chelsea, and other places, againSt the
Government plan of education.
Capt. PECHELL presented a petition in favour of it
from New Shoreham.

Lord A S FI LE Y presented petitions against the Govern-
ment plan of education.
Sir R. PEEL presented a similar petition from Tam-
worth.

Sir J. GRAHAM presented petitions to the same effect
,rom Cumberland, as did
Mr. GODSON from Kidderminster, and
Sir G. SINCLAIR from a variety of places.
JAMAICA.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day, for
the third reading of the Jamaica Bill.

Mr. HUME asked if any answer bad been sent to the
request of the Assembly, that they might be allowed to
legislate as a Colonial Assembly was entitled to do, or
whether the colony mere still to be g.verned by the
Order in Council.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had
misunderstood the request of the Assembly—who asked
that the Crown should relinquish the right of this country
to legislate for the colony—(No, no)—and if the
Ministers of the Crown 'acre to advise such a measure
they would be liable to impeachment.
Mr. HUME protested that there was no such intention
in the request. He was not at liberty to read the request,
bet if so he would convince the House that the Noble
Lord was in error. All that the House of Assembly did
was to ask the simple question, which any man of common
sense could have replied to. He would not give any opi.
nion on the Prisons Bill, but this House by that Bill
having interfered and taken from the House of Assembly
he power of legislating for the internal affairs of the
Colony. the House of Assembly wished to know if they were
at liberty to legislate for their internal affairs, because it was
no use for them to do so if they were liable to be interfered
with. The Hon. Gentleman here read the resolution, and
drew particular attention to that part of it which stated
that the House of Assembly wished to be informed by her
Majesty's Government whether her subjects of Jamaica
were to be treated as subjects possessing the power of self-
government, or as a conquered colony, to be legislated for by
means of Orders in Council, or by proclamations from the
Governor having the force of law. No answer had been
sent to that requisition, and on that ground he
took his stand against thes (proceedings on a point
of law. If her Majesty's Ministers had returned a
simple answer that they did not intend to interfere
any further the House of Assembly would have no
objection to resume their legislative functions, but that
answer had never been given, and on that ground he ob--
jeeted to the measure.
Mr. LABOUCH ERE thought that any gentleman
who had paid attention to the documents laid on the table,
must see that the Honourable Gentleman was in error
in the statement he had made with regard t
the spirit which actuated the House of Assem-
bly of Jamaica. The question they asked, irt fact,
was, whether the Government would pledge itself that
Parliament should henceforth deal with the Assembly of
Jamaica in a manner different from ash it it had hitherto
done. Of course the Government could give no such
pledge. He would bring to the recollection of the House
a resolution which had been carried in that House by a
large majority, arid in fry: ur of which, if he recollected
right, the Hon. Member for Kilkenny himself had voted.
He begged toremind the House that the resolution had been
come to after they had passed the Act for the Abolition of
Slavery,after tLey had passed the Abolition Act Amendment
Bill, and after they had asserted their right to interfere
with the Legislature in Jamaica. After they bad done
this they had come to a solemn resolutiou to the
effect that when the term of the negro apprentice-
ship had expired, they would continue to watch over
the interests of that class of the population of Jainaica.
He would put it to the House, after that resolution bad
been passed, whether it would not be an Act of
the grossest delusion on the part of the Government of
the country, if they had used language to the House of
Assembly of Jamaica which would have conveyed to them
the impression that they were not disposed to use due
vigilance. He thought the only objection to the course
that had been pursued by the Government was, that
they had exercised too much forbearance, after the con-
duct of the House of Assembly, in coming to a re-
solution. to suspend their business, after they had
told the Governor three times that they would not
transact the business of the Island unless they had certain
assurances. After that the Government would have been
justly chargeable with subterfuge if they had held any lan-
guage to the House of Assembly of Jamaica, that if they
did not do their duty, they would do it for them. The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in moving that the Jamaica
Bill be read a third time, said that he had considered the
objection that had been made by the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite, as to the time when the Act should
come into operation. His object was to afford the House
of Assembly fair and ample time, and he had therefore
altered the time for the Act coming into operation till the
Ist of October.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE begged to ask the Noble Lord
(John Russell) a question, which would not require so long
an answer PS had been given to the lion. Member for
Kilkenny. Supposing that Bill was carried into opera-
tion, would it be administered by the present Governor of
Jamaica ?
'"Lord 'JOHN h. SELL said Sir Lionel Smith had
been transferred from the Government of Jamaica to that

~~

ef the Mauritius, and Sir Charles Metcalf had been ap-
pointed Governor of Jamaica in his stead.
Mr. HUM E would enter his protest against the Bill,
but did not mean to divide the House upon it.
The 13;11 was then read a third time.
On the question that the Bill do pass,
Mr. GO UL BURN said the question had been so fre-
quently before the House, that he should compress his ob-
servations into the smallest compass. He had intended to
propose the omission of the first clause, but that would
now preclude the Right Hon. Gentleman from making
the alteration proposed when the period should arrive when
the Act came into operation. It was his intention to pro-
pose, in the first instance, the omission of the three first
words of the clause, and if he succeeded in that, he
should then move the omission of the whole clause.
He was led to believe that the Government bad a bone
fide wish to give to the House of Assembly an opportu-
eity of conducting the business of that colony; that they
were sincere in saying that they wish to uphold the popular
branch of the Constitution of that country, and that the
colony should continue to be governed by a Governor, a
Council, and a House of Assembly. The introduction
of the first clause in the Bill tended greatly to
creating an had sposition on the part of the Assembly to
withdraw from the position which they had taken up.
It was to be remembered that the resolutions were tiot
passed by a majority of the llouse of Assembly-21 out of
45 only having voted for the resolutions—this was
art ample reason for omitting the first clause
—the majority nut having tsken any part on the occasion,
it was but fair to suppose that they were not prepared to
take such strong measures as those who did vote. _He
would confine himself to two or three poires. This
clause would repeal all the existing laws relating to con-
tracts. It was only by the existing laws now that
emancipation of the Negroes had been etracted—that
celtivation could be carried on with success.
He also objected to the inequality of the law on the subject
of contracts, for if the mister was injured, he could only
recover by action ; whilst the servant could recover against
the master by distress. Another objection was that the
contract law affected 'the whole judicial system of the co-
lony. By this Bill it was proposed the petty Sessions should
consist of two Stipendiary Magistrates who should
appoint another Magistrate to. sit with them, who
would, to make use of a well-known expression, be
placed like a wild elephant between two tame ones.
He would ask any gentleman what would be his
feelings it he were called on to sit as a Magistrate in Petty
Sessions in conjunction with two Stipendiary Police Magis-
trates. He would ask if any one would accept of the
Commission of the Peace wider such circumstances ?
(The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cries
of " Divide, divide," which prevented our catching the
conclusion of his address.)
,Mr. fl UM E rose amid loud cries of " Divide, divide,
Oh, oh !" He objected to this Bill on principle, although
certainly it was less objectionable than the last, became it
did not suspend the functions of the Ilcuse of Asserribly,
nor give the Governor power of levying taxes, but
still it interfered with the powers of the Assembly.
He would assent to the doctrine of the Right Honour.
able Under-Secretary fur the Colonies if be would only
prove the existence of the necessity. If the Assembly
were not supported in those powers which Parliament had
conferred upon them, discord and confusion would be
produced in the colony. No complaint had been made by
the inhabitants of Jamaica, calling for such a measure as the
present, except the Governor, who had throughout acted
with haste and indiscretion.--(Hier, hear.) Joseph
Sturge—a man who was well known for his exertions on
behalf of the negro, had, on the sth of May, written a
letter, in which he stated that everything was going
on well in the colony, that sugar ivas being well cultivated,
and that peace prevailed in the island. Why should such
a happy state of things be interrupted by the Government ?
—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member proceeded to read
other letters of a similar purport, but was ren-
dered almost inaudible by the loud cries for a division.
There never had been a Bill carrying a more fallacious
front than the present, for it professed to protect the
negro while it did no such thing. What bad the
friend of the negro—Lord Brougham—said of this
measure, why, that there never was a greater delusiOn
practised on the abolitionists. The fact was, the present
measure was to prevent the negro from enjoying the
rights which were given him under the Bill that
emancipated him from slavery. He trusted, there-
fore, that the Bill would be rejected, and he, for
one, would vote for the expulsion of the first clause.
He objected to the proceeding altogether.—(The :Hon.
Gentleman sat down amid loud cries of " Divide.")
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down had divided his argument into
two parts—the first against the Bill which had been
dropped, and the second relating to a question which he
had asked about twenty minutes ago.—(Cheers sand
laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to
the probability of many Members not having read the
the Orders in Council; he would say that he believed
that many Members had not heard the arguments brought
forward so ably by the Learned Agent for the Assembly
of Jamaica against this Bill, If they had done so he was
surprised at the little effect their arguments had produced
on Hon. Gentlemen opposite. The arguments of that
Learned Gentlemen had not been directed against this
clause, but against the second clause in the Bill. He had
not argued that the Orders in Council were oppressive or
inoperative; be had not impugned the statements that
had been made that these Orders in Council had been for
six months in operation in the other colonies,
and had not been found to fail: but he had ad-
dressed his arguments entirely against the second
clause of the Bill, and he thought that that was the
course that should be taken by those who contended for
the constitutional right of the Assembly of Jamaica to
legislate, because it was the second clause that enabled
the Governor in Council to continue certnin taxes, if he
should deem such a course expedient. He had argued
that, according to the Act of 1778, the giving the Go-
vernor in Council the power of imposing taxes would be
an interference with the Constitution to which the House
ought not to assent. He had argued this point very fairly
and ably, but the House had not been convinced by his
argument, and he was surprised, when, at the conclusion of
the Learned Gentleman's speech, the Right Hon. and
Learned Member for Ripon had got up and given notice
of a motion for the rejection of the first clause. So little
had he been convinced ky the arguments of the Learned
Agent for the House of Assembly that he bad given them
completely the go bye, and had proposed the rejection of a
clause to which be had not even made an allusion. If they
left out this clause they might prevent any legislative mea-
sure being enacted for the benefit of the negroes, they might
prevent the enacting of laws relating to vagrancy and the
improper occupancy of lands, but they would not main-
tain the right of the Assembly of Jamaica. ( The Noble
Lord sat down amid loud cries of " Divide, divide.")
Sir ROBERT PEEL would willingly have yielded to
the impatience of the House, if by so doing he thought he
should at all conduce to maintaining the credit of the
House in the eyes of the country. This was a question re-
lating to one of the most important colonies of the British
empire, and he felt the Hcuse would be placed in a most
difficult position if they consented to this Bill. .The Noble
Lord had complimented the speech of the Agent fir Ja-
maica, and be bad always observed that that Noble Lord
was in the habit of complimenting that speech the most
highly which did hint the least damage.—(Cheers and
laughter.) But what did that prove ? Why, that they
were not acting in concert with the Agent for Jamaica.
It proved that they were willing to provide for any contin-
gency that might happen, and to enable the Government
to provide by the locel authorities for the government of
Jamaica in case the Assembly should continue to suspend
the executive of their functions. But they went further,
and provided for the permanent legislation of Jamaica, at
the same time that they declared it was their intention and
their wish that the House of Assembly should resume its
functions. But how could they hope they would do so with
this Bill? They said that unless they passed the most im-
portant Bills in six weeks, they would suspend their Le-
gislative functions. He would ask if they felt it
decorous to adept such a proceeding as this
when they looked to their own conduct on the Church-
rates Bill, or the Irish Tithe Bill, or the Joint-stock
Banks Bill, and on the legislative measures in regard to
Canada ?—( Cheer& ) That Government which poitponed
the consideration of any legislative measure in regard to
Canada to 1842, told the House of Assembly that unless
in six weeks they passed these most important measures,
their functions should be suspended. This course would
be giving to the House of Assembly a great advantage—
they were manifestly in the wrong now, and he was most
anxious not to reverse the position. He had a strong
feeling on this subject. If the House of Assembly should
continue to refuse to legislate for the benefit of the negro
population, he would give the Government every support
and tesistance they might require. But he was convinced
that the present Bill would only tend to embarrass the
future course of proceedings. It did not reserve to the
Imperial Parliament the power of determining what course
should be pursued in any emergency that might arise,
but it gave to the Governor, a new Governor, perhaps
totally unacquainted with the circumstances of the case,
and who might he sent out by the next packet, the power
of determining whether or not it was fit that the Constitu-
tion of Jamaica should be suspi-nded. But they
made it impossible by holding over them
this coercive threat that they should resume their
functions. If they wished to carry any useful measures
for the benefit of the negro population, would it not be
said that it was done under the coercion of this menace

They would place the Assembly in the worst possible po.
sition ; they would be retained as a Legislature, but it
would be as a discredited Legislature.—( Cheers.) Sup.
pose they passed those laws, the Act gave the power of
deciding according to the discretion as to matters of a
local character ; it did, not say to them absolutely you
shall adopt these Orders in Council. Now, suppose that
in sume matters of detail the Assembly should have, bone
fide, some doubts as to the expediency of adopting all the
provisions of the Order in Council, and the Governor in
Council should differ from this, them grave question was
not reserve.l for the decision of the imperial Parliament to
determine if the occasion were sufficient to warrant a sus.
pension of the functions, but was left to the decision of the
Governor in Council. In what position was this placing
the Imperial Parliament? Would they support the Governor
in Council, or would they supersede his act and revive the
House of Assembly ? The question was one entirely as to
time. Was it fit that the course to be pursued in the event
of the continued refusal of the House of Assembly,
should be determined on by the Imperial Parliament
in February next, or by the local authorities on
the 15th of October. If the House of Assembly should
be found refractory, and should still decline to perform
their duty, then the crisis would be grave enough to
summon Parliament for the purpose of considering the
course that ought to be pursued. Bat the present Bill
was not a wise piece of legislation, it was merely a paper
plaster to cover the wounded honour of the Government,
and it covered it very imperfectly. Honourable Mem-
bers on his side of the House were not acting in con'
cert with the Agent for Jamaica, they were not act.
ina in the spirit of partizanship—(Loud cries of " Oh,
oh,'' from the Ministerial benches, responded to,by cheers_
from the Opposition)--but they entreated the Govern-
ment not to place the Imperial Parliament in the wrong,
and not, after deferring the consideration cf some of their

.1~

EVENING _ED ETI N

own measures for six years, press on the House of As-
sembly of Jamaica the necessity of deciding in six weeks.
Mr. L ABOUCH ERE rose, amidst loud cries of
" Divide," which continued durirg the whole time he was
ad ressing the House, so as to render it exceedingly diffi_
cult to catch what fell film the Right lion. Gentleman.
He was understood to say that the question was a very
simple one. It was universally admitted that it was
desirable that the House of Assembly should be called
together, and invited to resume their duties to the Colony
of Jamaica ; but the House would still maintain the ground
it had assumed in the last Session of Parliament, and if the
House of Assembly should persist in following its present
course, it would take care that the people of Jamaica
should suffer as little as possible ; for this reason the power
was given to the Governor of reviving Bills, which was the
strongest part off' the Bill now before 'the House : and
when the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke so slightingly of
the authority of Mr. Burge, he was more inclined to
defer to the opinion of that Learned person on this subject
than to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman. lie fully
concurred in all that had been said regarding the tranquil-
lity existing at present in the Island of J ynaica, and he at-
tributed the maintainance of that tranquillity to the excr-
tions of the ministers of religion, who had been made the
objects of so much obloquy. But was it St that this state of
things should continue, and was it not the duty of tho Go-
vernment to provide for the good government of the island?
Regulations were required on three subjects—the laws
relating to contracts, vagrancy, and the occupation of
lands. The House of Assembly had decided that there
was a pressing necessity for the enactment of
those laws. By this Bill the option was given to the
II ,use of Assembly to enact these laws, and the ne•thod
followed on the present occasion was not a new one ' • they
had fo' lowed precisely the same course which had been
adopted in similar instances. The Counsel for the Assem-
bly had not stated that he found anything objectionable in
the Orders in Council, and yet the Right Hon. Gentle-
man now came forward at the eleventh hour to impugn
them. If the House refused its sanction to this Bill, they
would be abandoning the position they had assumed list
Session, and would show they were not prepared to act up
to the spirit of the resolution which they had then come to.
S:rangcrs were then ordered to nildraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion
For the amendment

267
257

Majority in favour of the passing of the ---
10
The result was received with much cheering from the
Opppsition, which was met by counter cheers from the
Ministerial side of the House.

The Bill then passed.
Considerable laug►her was caused in the House on the
question bring put that Mr. Bernal be directed to take the
Bill to the Lords, and request their Lordships' concur-
rence, in consequence of that Hon. Member having op-
posed the Bill.

' Petitions were presented in favour and against the Go-
vernment plan of education by Mr. 'Gladstone, Sir J. Y.
Butler, Lerd Sandon, Lord Ingestrie, and Lord Worsley,
EDUCATION—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Oa the motion that the Order of the Day be read for the
House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. W YSE was willing to give the Noble Lord, the
Member for Lancashire, full credit for honesty of pur-
pose in the speech which he had a few nights since ad-
dressed to the House. He seemed to have raisedeup for
himself a sort of phantasmagoria that affrighted his ima-
gination, created solely by the idea of a general system of
national education. But if the Noble Lord had looked
from the little world of that country—if be had looked
abroad upon the world of civilised man, he would find that
the monster he had raised, the nun:strum horrcnde, in.
gene, cui lumen redemplum est, was bul a mere
chimera, and which could never be created out of
a general system of popular education.—( Hear, hear.)
If the Noble Lord of 1839, was opposed to a general sys-
tem of education, he thought the Right Hon. Secretary of
1831 was more than a match for himself. On these grounds
he certainly could not ascribe to him the vast gladiatorial
powers which the Noble Lord below him ( Morpeth) bad
attributed to him. The Noble Lord had designated the
Government Commissioners not only as an arbitrary and
irresponsible, but also as a despotic and absolute body. If
such were the powers of the proposed body, what should
they say of the Boerd appointed in Ireland, which had
much less responsibility, and far greater powers, and which
had not the sensibility and susceptibility of change that
attached to every Ministry in that country ? The Go-
verernent Commissioners were subjected in every act they
did to the power arid rontroul of the House of Commons,
while the Irish Education Board was a permanent one,mcrely
reporting its proceedings once a year—and leaving the
power. to confer gratuities on masters, to establish normal
schools', to cnduw echools, and in all these matters they
were abiolutely without check cr contrail!. The greatest
objection of the Noble Lord appeared to be directed against
the system of educating children of different religious opie
nions in the same schools. The Noble Lord seemed to
think it a most dangerous course to edopt, and that the
venous versions of the Scriptures which might be intro-
duced, would be calculated to produce the most lament.
able results, and an indifference to religion. He re-
gretted, however, the Noble Lord had not seen fit to
introduce into that country the same system which had been
so well introduced and so generally adopted in Ireland. In
good faith, honest intentions, and sincare,gonvictions, he
knew of no difference between the two countries; audit' the
Noble Lord had in the one case advocated a system of edu-
cation for Ireland which he had condemned when it was
proposed to establish it in England, he thought the country
should be allowed to choose bet Ween the Noble Lord as
he was then, and the Noble' Lord as he fortnerly was.—
(Hear. ) When he (Mr.' Wyse) had introduced a plan of
education for Ireland in 1831, he had stated its details
very fully to the House. The principle of that mea-
sure had been adopted by the Noble Lord, and
without subrnitlitio•" his plan - for the—consideration of
Parliament he had, by a sort of Ore'onnance du Rot, con-
stituted his Board of Education in Ireland. He did not
blame the Noble Lord for that measure, on the contrary,
it had his most hearty concurrence, and when the question
had been brought before the public, lee (Mr. Wyse) had
stated his strong conviction thatthe Noble Lord had, by it,
conferred as great a" boon upon Ireland as had ever been
conferred by any Government that had preceded him.
He regretted to find so much of the time of the House
taken up with discussions on mere matters of etiquette and
detail when the question was last before it. They should
recollect that they were far behind the rest of Europe in
civilization and education, and that that was the question
before the House.—( Hear, hear.) The whole tenor of
the debate however appeared to be bow they could best
render religion sectarianism, how they could convert edu-
cation into ignorance and prejudice—not how much they
could concede to the people, but how much they could
withhold. The present social and physical condition of
that country was a question of deep importance and pro.
found inquiry to the philosopher. In the agriculture of
the country there were great drawbacks arising from
the ignorance of the parties engaged in it. These men
knew nothing of the application of chemistry and imereved
machinery to husbandry, and the cultivation of their land,
by which unfertile soils were rendered productive.
Would it be contended that these parties should be de-
prived of the benefits of such a system of education as
would enable them to apply these improvements to their
farms?—( Hear, hear.) In the same way, if the y went
into towns they would find the principles of health and
exercise but little understood—they would find th it few
efforts were made to render unwholseme employments
less injurious, and in many instances the sugge.,ti..ns of
benevolent men for promoting the health and comfotbs
of the workmen bad, through ignorance, engendered
feelings of animosity against their ben:factors and mas-
ters. Let them look at the case of hand-loom weavers_
they not only could see no use in machinery, but 'con-
! sidered it as their ruin, and not beneficial to the country
—nay, they even extended their vituperation to the higher
classes, and all those who saw of what immense advert-
tage.machinery was to the country. He would then cat
the attention of the House to the moral contlliion of the
poor—in many places one-tenth, and in otners one-seventh
,were living in cellars. Was that a state that could exist
if the people were educated? From the retuens of the
state of crime in the country .it was clearly shown that
the greater part of it arose from the want of knowledge.
Bible reading alone would not do, because it was taught
in all Sunday schools—it would not do unless it were
accompanied by a further knowledge and fuller instruction;
that fact was proved by the 'circumstances which took
place, as it were, under the very spires of Canterbury, end
in the near neighbourhood of that great Metropolis. The
people who there believed in Sir William Courtenay as the
Seviour, had all the advantages ef Sunday Schools very
few of those who were punished, and who considered
themselves as martyrs, but were posses-ed and wet.e well
acquainted with the Bible ; but there was in that part of
the country a lamentable deficiency of schools for giving
general and liberal education. It was laid dawn by the
Committee -on English Education after much and
searching scrutiny, that the great increase in crime
was to be attributed to the want of knowledge.—(Hear,
hear.) It was a well vecrtaincd fact, that while
America educated 1 in 4; Prussia, 1 in 6 ; Holland, 1 in
8 ; England educated on!), some 3,
in 30. lavniidiintie), f
t3u placesndc,.m thee
average was so lox as
induce d by the want of education, when they found they
were behind every other civilized country,- surely as men
and as Christians they must be anxious to put an end to
such a system. The voluntary principle in such a case
would not work, and as they had already done in the
police system and in the Poor-laws, they !twat have a cell-
trelized system, to be of any avail in a national point of
view. These voluntary schools were generally set up by a
squire or a clergyman—the first might travel on the Con-
tinent, or reside in London, the latter might be
translated to another benefice. Was the educa-

Lion of the country to rest upon such a weak
basis? No; he wanted to see a really national, unsecta.
rian system. The National Schools, and the British and

Foreii,a,- n Schools had nearly all the e;ils of these proprie-
tary schools—they had all the defects which the Noble
Lurd (Stanley) attributed so justly to thrs Kildare-street
S.iciety. Both, in fact, excluded the Catholics, and the
Natic.nal Schools virtually excluded the Dissenters.
Le,t not the Catholics be charged with being against
the circulation of the Holy Scriptures. Within a
very short time they had circulated na less than 270,000
Bib!es and Testaments at 25 per cent. cheaper than any
issued from Oxford and Cambridge. He joined those who
wculd give education on a plan which would admit all
only in country, In for-
y, but
mgr,classes—all
very
yecotsl—d sects—the
ten
eyso,utnlio oft
in
the whole
throughout Europe, all education was in the hands of the
CbUres, but that was a state of things teat was then un-
avoidable, because the whole of Europe was divided into
two , classes—the men of war and the learned men.
Would any one say that such a system was fitted
for su .h a titae as ours, when science was
divided from religion, and the press from both ?
Could it be said that the Church had a right of superin-
tendence over sceular .education? Would the Cburch
itlist on teaching the dissentient portion of the community
a well as her own flock ? She could not be considered
a national teacherunless she did, and be admitted that she
1144..tbc....rig1it to. superintend-the religions cducatett?f the
people, but each Church should look after the education of
her own f.u:k. As to this grant of money, he did not
Clink the Treasury was the best repository of IT'"'"Y