The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEB. 26.
The LORD CHANcELLom. took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'Clock.
Lord DEVON presented a petition from the land-
owners and others of Kingsbridge, in the county of
Devon, against a repeal of the Corn-laws ; also from an
agricultural society in a parish in the same county, to
the same effect ; likewise a petition from Kingsbridgeh
in favour (as we understood) of some measure for the
recovery of small debts.
Lord, BROUGHAM—Where is Kingsbridge ?
Lord DEVON—In Devonshire.
Lord BROUGHAM—Of what population does it
consist ?
Lord DEVON said (as we believe, but spoke in a
very low tone of voict-) of about 5,000.
RELIEF (IRELAND) AMENDMENT ACT
BILL.

Upon the motion of Lord DUNCANNON, the
Relief (Ireland) Amendment Act Bill passed through
a Committee of the whole House, and was reported
without amendment.
BOROUGH COURTS (RULES OF PRO-
CEEDINGS) BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he rose to move the
committal of the Borough Courts (Rules of Proceedings)
Bill), which enabled him to introduce a subject to
the attention of their Lordships of very great import-
ance, and to which he had to beg, not only the attention
of his Noble Friends behind him and other Noble
Lords. but more particularly his much esteemed and
Noble Friend near him. He knew that a Noble and
Learned Friend of his, not' then in his place,
also felt very much on this subject, and intended
to state his opinions upon it. That Noble and Learned
Friend might differ from him on some minor points in
reference to the question now about to be discussed,
but substantially they agreed with each other. The
importance of this arose from the great number of Bills
now before the House, though not a greater number
than usually came before the House for the
same purpose, namely, to give to particular
local circuits and districts, Local Courts. He found
there were 21 of those Bills now before the House.
Some were for the purpose of establishing what were
called Courts of Requests, and others small Debt
Courts—but all substantially for the same purpose.
Some of them were for places whose importance
would seem to justif the passing of some such mea-
sures, but others were foe other places, whose popula-
tion were so extremely small, and the importance of which
places were so inconsiderable, that he was by no means
prepared to say such Bills should be passed for those
places. For instance, his Noble Friend opposite (Lord
Devon) had presented a petition that evening from
a place called Kingsbridge, praying to have such a Bill,
and which place he (Lord Brougham) had never
heard of before.—(Hear.) There were also se-
veral other places such as Hatfield, Glossop,
Liskeard, Pontefract, and so on, some of which
places also he had never heard of before, and it was
proposed to establish Courts of local jurisdiction in
those places, confining the proceedings to certain cir-
cuits, and those circuits entertaining causes of debt to a
certain amount. So much for the general feature of
the case, which consisted in the number of those
Bills, and the various importance of the places
for which it was proposed they should be passed.
He had now to state to their Lordships very strong
arguments against these Bills. In the first place,
they were in their operation partial—they were varied
—they were governed by no one principle, and almost
in every one of them the foundation was different.
There was every variety of detail in the jurisdiction
—in the machinery—in the guards provided—in
the influence and patronage, and other particulars in
which he need not trouble their Lordships. There was
consequently series of enactments in which not only no
uniformity prevailed, but no well-considered principle
adopted by the Legislature was applicable to them,
even with certain local modifications which might
be deemed necessary. But that was not all—he
observed that great as was the variety that governed
the frame work of these measures, in no one view of the
case were they likely to confer a benefit upon the com-
munities for whom they were intended. Then there
was a good deal of patronage—three or more officers
were to be created by these Bills, and from their
nature they were much more likely to be holden
by, to have the duties executed by, and the emoluments
bestowed upon local interests. Persons connected
with the place, persons who had never seen the light
of Westminster Hall, who lived in the country, having
a connection among the local authorities, and likely to
be influenced by them. If, then, the establishment
of these Local Courts had a tendency to open
the door to jobbing (and he thought he was not using
too strong a phrase), it would be for their Lordships
to consider whether they were measures which ought to
be entertained. There was another circumstance that
struck him (he was merely running over the heads of
his objections) and it appeared to him to be one of the
reasons why these Bills were so rife. When they saw
places like Qlossop, Liskeard, Hatfield, and others less
known, seeking for these Bills, they naturally asked did
the demand come from the suitors ? There was one
class of suitors from which he believed they proceded—
the tradesmen and shopkeepers, and observe for what.
Not because justice was cheap—not because it was
brought home to their own doors—not because it was
speedy in its operation, but because the Commissioners of
those Courts were whom ? The shop-keepers themselves.
Every one of those Local Courts, and that was another
circumstance, not a variety distinguishing one from an-
other, but an identity making all of the same
feature—every one of those Courts had for its Judges
a page and a half of names much more obscure than the
places themselves. The shopkeepers of those places
were to be the Judges of whom 5 in one, 7 in another,
14 in a third, and three in a fourth instance were to
be a quorum. And now observe what followed.
He did not say that it was a practice for the Com
missioners to try their own cases. But this was done.
A. B. C, would eit to-day, and try the causes of
D. E. F., then to-morrow D. E. F. would sit, and
try the causes of A. B. C. So that there was a
constant tendency in favour of the plaintiffs. Even
where an assistant barrister presided, the case must
ultimately come for decision to the Commissioners, who
were the Jury. He (Lord Brougham) hoped there
was an intention to pass a general Bill upon the subject.
Some persons thought it was wrong to establish these
Courts at all. He was of a contrary opinion. But by
continuing to establish these courts, a host of local
interests was raised up against the general measure
which might hereafter be introduced. The Ecclesiastical
Courts Bill had been prepared with the assistance of
the most learned Ecclesiastical and Equity Judges—
but it had never yet passed. Why ? Not because any of
its promoters had altered their opinion respecting it ;
but because there were local interests in almost every
part of the country enlisted against it—that is, in every
district where a Court was established, there were
persons whose "occupation would be gone," if the general
measure passed. And just so was it with the Local Courts.
He had brought a Bill respecting those Courts into
their Lordships' House, and it was lost only by one
vote. He confessed that he regretted the loss of that
Bill. He hoped that he should see another of the
same nature passed. No one would with more cheer-
fulness surrender the question into the hands of the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack ; who
had, if not more information, greater opportunities for
acquiring information regarding it than he (Lord
Brougham) had. And the measure would come
with much higher authority from the Government.
He hoped and trusted he should live to see the Bill in
operation. It was in a speech from the Throne stated
to be the Royal wish, and one more worthy
of being mentioned in the Royal speech, there
could not be. His late Majesty, said that he hoped
to see speedy justice on moderate terms, and with rea-
sonable and safe dispatch brought home to the doors of
every one of his subjects. He need not tell their
Lordships the infinite advantages that would be de-
rived from local jurisdiction.—(Hear, hear.) The
people would have in the first place cheap justice ;
in the second place they would have swift justice ; and,
in the third place, they would have, which was not less
valuable, constant justice, that was to say, constant
access—not twice a year only, but constant access to the
Judge. No measure would more deservedly obtain the
thanks of the people than such a blessing as that. An-
other great benefit that would be derived from the esta-
blishment of those Courts would be that they would be
able to transact many important matters, which at pre-
sent for want of such Courts were either
not done at all, or very ill done, and in a way
that gave no satisfaction ; or done by inefficient,
agents, instead of by agents fully accomplished and well
qualified.l He would refer particularly to the police,
the origin of which police was to be traced to times when
the agricultural population was thinly scattered over the
country ; Manor Courts were then established, high-
constables and petty-constables appointed. The pre-
vention of crime, the seizure of offenders, would be
greatly aided by the establishment of such
te of his
Courtsie asthetsee,
satisfylth their Lordshipsardlyrequired anye
ofbsetrhveat-.
The establishment of a rural police, which he believed
wa sinecronevteeme
safely withplation, could
the
et
lbieheersty e
ta. blifshthe ed
suhsatisfac-
torilyjeet
without also establishing at the same time, and in
harmony with it Judicial Courts.—(Hear, hear.)
How much better it would be that the population
should have constant access to a good local Criminal
Judge. His Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Den-
man), the first Criminal Judge of the land, so
far from being jealous of the establishment of such
Courts, was convinced that they would prove a
blessing to the country. According to the present law,
a boy of ten years of age, for stealing a few apples, might
be eent to prison by a zealous Magistrate ; and though
his punishment might be, after trial, only a few weeks or
days imprisonment, his imprisonment before trial might
extend to 3or months, in the company of accomplished
felons. He went to gaol a poor boy, and left it either an
accomplished felon or baying had an education to fit him
for it. This was one of the most expensive and dilatory pro-
ceedings known in those Courts, where the attributes
of delay and expense were, to say the least, not alto-

7101
280
WO

gether unknown. Instead of sending down a Corn- I
mission, on issue being joined, they might send down the
evidence taken. With respect to the other branch of
this measure, he would wish that their Lordships would
bear in mind that in what he was about to
say, he by no means wished to undervalue the
services of the Masters in Chancery. They were, in
fact, the organs of feeling in the Court of Chancery.
They were the trial by jury of that Court. By a Bill
which he had brought in he had done all in his power
to raise the Masters in Chancery, by placing them on
the footing of the Judges of the land. His intention
was that they should be as a protection thrown round
the Great Seal, and in his appointments to that
office he had never made men - Masters in Chan-
cery, because the place was a comfortable one.
He had never appointed an individual a Master
in Chancery, because the place seemed fitted
to him, but because he was fitted to the place. As to
the idea of any other person applying to the Chan-
cellor, or speaking to him on the subject of this appoint-
ment, he would say . that it would be as great an insult,
as great an injustice, and as great a prostitution of
power, to allow this, as ta allow a person to speak to
the Chancellor on the appointment of pztisne Judge ; and
during the time that he held the Seals he had recom-
mended persons to the Crown for the appointment
of Puisne Judge even before the Prime Minister had
been informed of the appointment. As far as regarded
this measure then, he did not mean to cast any doubts
on the utility of the office of Master in Chancery,
but he considered that these local jurisdictions might in
many instances more effectually perform these functions.
He would now draw their Lordships' attention to what
he conceived to be the necessity that existed for the crea-
tion of the office of Public Prosecutor, or of some office
analagous to it. Had their Lordships witnessed
the circumstances attendant upon trials conducted by
a public prosecutor, the great advantage that the
Judge, the suitors, and all concerned derived from the
assistance of that officer—the great advantage derived
by the prisoners also, in consequence of none but proper
bills being preferred, they would agree with
him in opinion as to the great importance
and advantage to- be derived from the appointment of a
public prosecutor. He was sure that the Central Cri-
minal Court, the jurisdiction of which extended over
upwards of two millions of persons, afforded an admir-
able opportunity of trying it upon a great scale. That
Court had been found to have effected admirably
the purposes for which it was intended. A public pro-
secutor had in his opinion become absolutely necessary
since the Prisoners' Counsel Bill had passed, because,
in a case where the prisoner employed counsel and the
prosecutor did not, the prisoner's counsel would hardly
do his duty without a little bending on his side, in
order that each party might spring into an upright po-
sition. In such a case, without a public prosecutor,
the Judge would be placed in rather an odious
position ; and without some plan of the sort to
which he had referred was established justice
could not properly be administered.—(Hear, hear.)
The establishment of Local Courts upon some just
foundation would give, in his opinion, great facilities to
the administration of justice. A public prosecutor had
been found to be of great benefit in the places to
which he had referred in the administration of
justice, because he believed it had been always found
that Grand Juries, with their divided responsibility, had
never proved so effectual as a public prosecutor, with
his undivided responsibility. He trusted that their
Lordships would excuse him for having occupied so
much of their time, but in a case of such great public
importance, he considered it his duty to state to the
House what his opinions were upon the subject.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he en•
tirely agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend so far
as he bad pointed out the necessity of having established
some well-conseeuted rules and principles for the form-
ing of these Courts. He felt persuaded that nothing
could contribute more to the proper administration ofjus-
i tics, than some well-regulated established principles
on this subject. Many propositions had been stated by
the Noble and Learned Lord which could not be con-
troverted. So great a deficiency in the several local
districts of carrying into effect what ought to be done,
both with regard to the civil and criminal jurisdiction,
and the multitude of applications brought up for
Bills, showed what was wanted. It was true the
business was done by local Acts, but it was
only done partially, and not in a way to effect the due
administration of justice. Many of those Courts were
presided over by Commissioners, and unless they had
some superior authority over them, such Courts were
productive of any thing but justice. The means of re-
covering debts cheaply and speedily were but a small
part of the benefit to be derived by the community
from haying a well established principle in the constitu-
tion of those Courts. With respect to the Courts of
Equity with which he (the Lord Chancellor) was more
particularly conversant, nothing could be more incon-
venient, and nothing more defective, and nothing more
expensive than the course at present in existence of
carrying into effect the every day prooeadings of a Court
of Equity.—(Hear, hear.) To take as an example a
matter of lunacy, which, though it might not strictly
be considered as a proceeding in the Court of Chancery
yet was a proceeding before the Lord Chancellor ; if a
Commission was to be executed in the country, that
Commission was merely granted by the Chancellor ;
but there was no person that he could appoint, or that
he could direct to preside over the execution of the Com-
mission. •It was necessarily, therefore, directed
to Commissioners, and whether those Commissioners
should be well or ill selected, depended a good deal on
those who were prosecuting the Commission. This
proceeding was attended with great expense ; and it
was not known who the individual might be, who
should preside over, perhaps a long trial—a trial
which would incur great expense, and upon the
result of which investigation the fate of an individual,
as far as his liberty was concerned, depended. There
was no local authority that could be appointed by the
Chancellor to govern or preside over such a trial.
Then again, as regarded examining witnesses in equity,
it was not according to the constitution of that Court
to have witnesses brought up to London to be
examined to save expence, as it was supposed
a Commission was granted to examine them in
the country. But whose duty was it to examine them
there ? Why nobody. was appointed for that purpose,
and therefore again Commissioners were employed.
Then as to taking an answer in the Court of Chancery
there was no person regularly appointed to do that.
In short, everything that was to be done, relating
to the business in the country, in the Court of Equity
was to be transacted by parties selected there—always
at great expense—and through thee-+ a multitude
of the business of the Court of Equity neces-
sary to be transacted was transacted. He (the Noble
and Learned Lord) would not advert to the Crimi-
nal Jurisdiction. He did not apprehend their Lord-
ships would entertain any doubt that it was
expedient that the criminal administration of justice in
this country should be much more frequent than it had
been. He did not undervalue the duties of the magistrates
of the counties, but if it were necessary that the criminal
justice should be more frequently administered, it could
not be expected that gentlemen would sacrifice the
whole. of their time for the purpose of trying prisoners
Those
Lordshipssubjects
were
ehr
ea d
aware b e e
matter
s col if a
dr gi
en
ug s
st ho en g
aa
no Ids t h
rseday p tolipa otsit eiovriil.
He had
that in the course of the last Session, a Bill was brought
into the other House, but which did not reach their
Lordships'heardilobuust one objectionended to
to umehe
House, intended
and that was the expense. But let them take'
the administration of criminal justice, and they would
find that if the Sessions were only four times a-
year, the expense would be much increased, inasmuch
as the criminals must remain in prison for one or two
months, or at the very least for some weeks. The great
object was (independently of the inconvenience and in-
justice of keeping men in prison untried for any length of
time) to lessen the expense of the support of these prisoners.
That charge fell principally on the country ; but if
any judicial authority was established in the country
that expense would be altogether avoided. If they
had an officer in the country who would execute al;
those duties growing out of the Court of Chan-
cery, they would thereby save the suitors much
of the expense they were now subjected to, and effect a
great public good. In such a case they were not to
take into account only the increased charge on the
country, but how far the community at large would be
benefited.—( Hear.) It was impossible to enumerate
the multiplicity of affairs which might be discharged
by such an officer. The first object was to see such an
office established.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Brougham.)
There would be no difficulty in finding business for him.
The great difficulty would be to find an officer capable
of transacting all the business that would be thrown
upon him. He (the Lord Chancellor) had been
most anxious to have such an office established,
and he was glad the subject had been taken
up by his Noble and Learned Friend, and
brought under the notice of their Lordship; be-
cause he deemed the establishment of such an officer
of the greatest possible public benefit.
Lord ABINGER spoke so very inaudibly that we
could scarcely collect the purpor o t f what hesaid. We un-
derstood him to allude to the present system of the Revis-
ing Barristers, as showing the uncertainty and contradic-
tions resulting from the establishment of a number of
separate, independent tribunals in the country. He
believed that the formation of independent tndicial
establishments in each county would be the cause of
great inconvenience, and would he attended with most
pernicious consequences. The law of Yorkshire would
differ from the law of Lancashire, which would also
differ from that of Surrey. The Noble and Learned
Lord went on to observe that Grand Juries had
frequently been made the subject of declamation ; but
he considered that the Grand Juries brought the people
of England into contact with the Administration of' jus-
tice constantly ; and for that reason were most valuable
institutions. Then it was often suggested that there
should be a legal Chairman in Quarter Sessions, He
(Lord Abinger) must protest against the system which
was now so current,—of seeking to dispense with the
participation of the gentlemen of England in the admi.
nistration of justice. He thought the connection of the
country gentlemen with the administration of justice was

one of the highest advantages and one of the noblest
distinctions of England, and he hoped it would never be
done away with.
The LORD CHANCELLOR. made a ff‘v obgerva-
tions which were inaudible.
Lord DENMAN expressed his satisfaction that this
Bill had given rise to the present discussion, which he
could not but consider had been of the greatest
importance, because it was a subject which re-
quired and demanded the fullest and most com-
plete consideration.—( Hear.) He thought his Noble
and Learned Friends had stated defects of considerable
magnitude, and he did not think the remedy was ever
thought of until those defects were made known as a
grievance among the public generally. He did not
think the present was an occasion on which he ought to
give an opinion of his own as to the remedies to be
applied to those serious grievances. He was disposed
to think, without pledging himself to any particular
measure, that this Bill did not interfere in any degree
with any plan that could be devised for the future im-
provement of the administration of the law. By the
Municipal Corporation Act the right of regulating and
approving of such rules as the Judges of the Inferior
Courts might recommend was given to any three of the
Judges. A Committee of the Judges had met last
Term, and the result was, a Bill had been prepared
which he would have the honour of laying before their
Lordships. That Bill would be applicable to Courts
in general, and it proposed that every action in the In-
ferior Courts should commence by writ of summons, and
that there should be frequent holding of those Courts. He
did not know that any objection could well be made to the
Bill, but he had no doubt their Lordships would, under
the circumstances, think it fit the Bill should be re-

ceived.
The Earl of DEVON said, they were not called
upon to decide whether the officer proposed by the
Noble and Learned Lord should be appointed. He
was an old Chairman of Quarter Sessions, and he was
sure that the magistrates would not stand in the way
of an improvement of the law. The subject of the
trial of offenders came under the consideration of a
Committee of their Lordships' House last year, and he
had been directed as their Chairman to submit a Bill to
their Lordships, and he had only forborne presenting
that Bill by finding on the Votes of the other House
that the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
Home Department, had given notice that he should
bring the subject before that House. He thought that
concurrent with this Bill they ought to have regard to
the question of the summary conviction of offenders.
Lord LANGDALE was glad that this subject had
been brought forward. He would only make a few
observations. There were defects and delays both in
the ministerial and judicial administration of justice in
the Court of Chancery that the country bad a right to
complain of. The jurisdiction of the Court extended
all over the country. Persons living in parts, however
remote, might be called upon to give an answer to the
case made against them in London. That answer
had to be taken before some properly constituted au-
thority. Was it reasonable to call the party from
Liverpool or from the Land's-End to put in an answer ?
Well, then, a proper tribunal in the country had to be
appointed, and a Commission might be issued, Well,
when the answer was taken before the Commission so
appointed, it had to come to London. The party then
would have to send it by some one who would bring it
to London, and who had to swear that he had received
it from the Commissioners, and that it was in the same
state as when it was given to him, But suppose the
party could not get the answer brought to London, or
could notpay the expense of so doing, that party was
then liable for contempt of Court because the answer so
taken could not be conveniently brought to London.
Then witnesses had to be examined. There
was no authority io the country to examine
them, and again another Commission had to
be issued. They were obliged to have such
Commissioners as could he found, and some were very
desirous of increasing their own enjoyments, while the
proceedings were going on. He did not wish to use
harsh language, but he could not help thinking that the
interests of the suitors were grossly neglected. There
were twenty other things of smaller importance which
could not be done without creating an authority for the
purpose. These were all ministerial acts, and he
thought it was impossible for any person to create
objections that proper local authorities should be
established for the purposes he alluded to.
He could not conclude without expressing the satisfac-
tion he felt that the subject had been brought under the
notice of the House, however irregular it might be.
Lord BROUGHAM quite concurred with his Noble
and Learned Friend who had just sat down in the satis-
faction he expressed at the question being brought un-
der the notice of the House, and he believed that he
was perfectly regular in his proceedings, as he had given
notice of his intention to make the statement last night,
and he was happy in any way to be the instrument of
stirring such a question, and calling their Lordships' at-
tention to it. He had heard the speeches of his Noble
and Learned Friends, and it filled up the measure of his
self-gratulation to find that they agreed with him that
some change was necessary. Allusion bad been made
to a speech delivered by him in the other House, and
he was proud to. say that in looking over the points of
that speech he found that only one recommendation
contained in it was not now the law of the land.
Lord ABINGER had not made any allusion to the
speech of the Noble and Learned Lord ; he had said
that he had heard long and eloquent speeches in an-
other place upon the subject, but he had not said that it
was from the Noble and Learned Lord.
The Bill then went through Committee, and the re-
port was ordered to be received on Thursday.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table
certain papers connected with the proceedings of the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners.
The Earl of CHARLEVILLE said, that notwith-
standing the reply of the Noble Marquis last night,
with regard to the granting of certain returns, he
found on looking at the papers, that the object
which both the Noble Earl who had just left
the House, and the Noble Marquis professed to have
in view, that of seeing who was right, and who was
wrong with regard to the proceedings which had taken
place in Ireland, could not be accomplished, unless the
returns for the two preceding years were granted. He
therefore stated that he was authorised by the Noble
Earl, who had first left the House, to give notice of mo-
tion on his behalf for the production of those returns,
is addition to those to which he had already alluded.
He wished to know whether the Noble Marquis
objected to the production of these returns with regard
to the first point on which difference of opinion had
taken place last night between the Noble Marquis and
the Noble Earl.
The Marquis of NORMANBY was not aware at
the moment of the circumstances of the case.
The Earl of CHARLEVILLE held in his hand
the return of the conviction of the prisoner alluded to.
The Marquis of NORMANBY had no objection to
give the returns asked for ; in feat, he rather wished
that they should be carried back even beyond the two
years, because he was anxious to show that he had fol-
lowed the same precedents as his predecessors. Ile
again repeated that he had not the slightest objection
to grant these returns. He would just say, in allusion
to what the Noble Earl had said, that there seemed to
be some doubt in his (the Marquis of Normanby's)
mind, as to the identity of the person alluded to ; that
he had observed that he was not aware of the circum-
stances of the case, of which no doubt the Noble Earl
was aware, he having made them the subject of inves-
tigation. A medical gentleman who had called on him
to-day, had told him that although he could not recol-
lect this precise case, yet he perfectly well recollected
that at the time the hulks were broken up, certain of
the convicts had been transported to Kilmainham gaol,
in consequence of medical certificates stating that they
were not a fit state to be transported. He was too
much used to the exercise of this power in Ireland, to
state at first whether Coghlan was or was not one of
these persons,'although he took it for granted from what
the Noble Earl said that he was one of them. He had
no objection to acknowledge that he was sorry mercy had
been extended in this case, if the case were as bad as had
been described by the Noble Earl. With reference to
the returns he could have no objection to granting them
although they would not show the whole of the reasons
for the commutation of punishment. The certificate of
the surgeon constituted only one ingredient in enabling
the Government to come to a decision—there were
many other causes and considerations which influenced
the Government in their decision. With reference to
the officer of the medical department, on whose indivi-
dual -declaration it had been said he had acted, he
he would state that, first of all, there was the surgeon of
the transport, who certified as to the inability of the
convict to undertake the voyage. In this case the Go-
vernment had no discretion ; and they referred this
certificate to the medical officers of the Government,
in order that they might ascertain the existing state of
the disease, and whether it was of such a nature as to
render it unlikely that he would ever be able to under..
take the voyage. These certificates were the acts of
public officers, and formed one ingredient in the decision
to which the Government came on the subject.
The Earl of CHARLEVILLE said that no doubt
one of the reasons for asking for a more extended re-
turn was, the number of prisoners let out by the Noble
Marqis in the years 1834 arid 1837—many persons
under sentence of death had been let out on those occa-
sions—others under sentence of transportation for
life—others under sentence of transportation for 14
years—others under sentence of transportation
for seven years, had been also liberated by
the Noble Marquis, and out of all these cases in only
forty-one instances had bail been required. In the
ease of Coghlan he would not now dispute as to the
validity of the medical certificate, when it appeared ac-
cording to the Noble Marquis's own showing that in
this instance he had pursued an unusual practice. It
appeared that there had been a regular rule with re-
gard to the commutation of punishment, but in this in-
stance Coghlan, a man of bad character, had been let
loose without undergoing the three years' imprisonment
to which his sentence of commutatation ought to have
been commuted, and even without being called upon
to find bail. Michael Ryan had been deScribed as an
old pensioner who had lost hiS leg ; it would have been

I much better for the unfortunate prosecutor if this old
Colour-sergeant had lost his arm as well. The offence
i which he had committed had been treated so lightly
that erd tre-lera'- c-e-titt- 1-1 br—r, ;r-d b'tyl
himself in ten pounds, and two securities of five pounds
each, and the offence which this man who had lost
his leg had committed, was the taking a man's head
under his arm, putting it into Chancery, in fact, and
opening his knife and scooping his eye out. Such con-
duct as this, on the part of her Majesty's Government,
was calculated to shake justice, to destroy the confi-
dence of Judges, to destroy the confidence of Juries,
to destroy the confidence of Magistrates, and to cause
the people of Ireland to imagine that the Government
were assisting those who were guilty of these breaches
of the peace.—(Cheers).
The Marquis of NORMANBY was most anxious
to meet the impression of the Noble Earl or the im-
pression of other Noble Lords, and would do so when
the Noble, Lord opposite (Roden) brought forward the
question he had given notice of at the commencement
of the Session. Perhaps the Noble Lord woulu have
the kindness now to fix an early day for bringing it
forward. He did not wish to ask any indulgence of the
House, but he desired to have some specific day named,
in order that, in the mean time, he might refresh his
memory on the circumstances of the case, in order that
he might be enabled to answer the question of
Noble Lords, and refute the imputations that had
been cast against his Government in Ireland.
The Noble Marquis opposite ( Westmeath) had con-
cluded last night by stating that he_had thrown open the
doors of the prisons in Ireland. Now upon that subject
all he would say was, that of course he, as well as
other men, was liable to error ; but this he could con-
scientiously say, that in the exercise of the prerogative of
mercy he had been justified in the course he had pur-
sued by the opinions of the Judges, who had stated that
he had exercised it with much care and attention, and in
accordance with their views upon the subject. When
the Noble Earl brought forward his motion on the sub-
ject, he should be enabled to refute completely the as-
persions that had been cast upon him in that respect.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that the
Noble Marquis opposite seemed to think that Noble
Lords on that side of the House had not dealt fairly
with him in bringing forward the subject as they had
done, and not reserving it for a field-day.—( Hear. Lear.)
He would venture to say that if the House were to sit
there for a week, and every night until twelve o'clock,
they would not be enabled to consider :dl the sets of
misgovernment on the part of the Noble Marquis
during the time he was Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Marqui'
seemed to think that the matters that
were
brought forward were extremely trifltg,
worthy of the attention of th I-1
e and hardly
:ouse. Was it a trifling
matter, he would ask.
¶-er a man to have his eye gouged
out?—(Heard 1-„,a,..)
He wished to God, that the Noble
Mar".;:sls-s Government had been anything but what. it
was—he wished he could have praised instead of blamed
him, but having the interests of Ireland at heart, he
should never hesitate, notwithstanding the taunts of the
Noble Marquis, to bring forward facts and circumstances,
which he felt himself compelled to do from a sense of
duty.—( Hear, hear.)
Earl RODEN having been personally alluded
to by the Noble Marquis, felt himself called upon
to make a few observations. He had felt it his
duty, at the commencement of the Sesssion, to state that
it was his intention to call the attention of the House
to the disturbances that had taken place in various
part of Ireland. He was extremely anxious, when he
did so, that there should be a full attendance of Noble
Lords, particularly those who were connected with that
part of the country where the disturbances had taken
place. Such being his wish, it was impossible for him
to name a certain day, until he had had an opportunity of
communicating with those Noble Lords. When he had
done so, and had ascertained the time that would be
most convenient for them, he would take care to inform
the Noble Marquis. Having said thus much, he wished
to make a few observations on the statements of the
Noble Marquis relative to opening the gaols. He
(Lord R.) had stated that the Noble Marquis had
thrown open the gaols in consequence of the course he
had thought proper to pursue when he visited several
towns in the tour he had made through Ireland, parti-
cularly at Mullingar, where the Noble Marquis had
given orders to the gaoler to liberate not less than nine-
teen persons. At that place there was a gentleman, of
the name of Brown, who had a servant named Thomas—
that servant was cruelly beaten, and left for dead—two
individuals of the names of Gannon and Ward were
taken up as accomplices in the assault ; they werebrought
to the Court of Session, tried and convicted, and ordered
2 years and 6 months' imprisonment, and at the expiration
of that time to find sureties of 201. each to keep the peace
to all her Majesty's subjects for seven years. This took
place in the month of January ; in the August fol-
lowing the Noble Marquis made his tour through Ire-
land, and among the nineteen persons he had ordered to
be liberated at Mullingar were these two individuals,there-
by shortening the duration of their punishment for up-
wards of a year and a half, added to which they were set at
liberty without entering into sureties to keep the peace.
After their liberation a most barbarous murder was
committed, and those two individuals were now in cus-
tody on suspicion of being accomplicesin that murder.
True that according to the principles of the law in this
country, no man was guilty nntil he had been found so
by a jury of his country, but to say the least of it, he
thought the extension of mercy in this case by the
Noble Marquis was totally uncalled for. He (Lord R.)
was as anxious as any man to give the Noble Marquis
credit for a desire to extend mercy, but he must say
that in such cases as those he had referred to, the
mercy of the Noble Marquis had been in the ex•
tremity of cruelty, because it left the innocent part of the
community to the mercy of the worst of characters. It
was an act of cruelty towards the Jury and the Judge
who tried them, and he would venture to say that the
species of mercy which had been extended by the
Noble Marquis to the delinquents, bad done
more to increase ahe disturbances in Ireland
than any other act of his during the time he had repre-
sented his Sovereign in Ireland. The peaceable inha-
bitants of Ireland were desirous that the course pur-
sued by the Noble Marquis and the Government should
be brought to light, and when it was he would venture
to say that it would be found to have materially af-
fected the peace of Ireland. They had, however, now
done with the Viceroyalty of the Noble Marquis in
Ireland, and he (Lord R.) should be acting with hypo-
crisy if he did not say he was heartily glad of it.—
( Hear, hear) He should like to see the office of Vice-
roy done away with altogether ; but, if the Govern-
ment appointed another individual he trusted they would
select one who would adopt a course by which he would
draw to the Castle of Dublin all the resident gentry of
Ireland, and restore that system of order in the country
which the loyal people of Ireland had a right to expect.
Lord L ISMORE believed that the tranquillity of
Ireland was owing to the firmness and decision of the
Noble Marquis. It was owing to faction that so much
crime existed in Tipperary. The leaders of these fac-
tions had been tried and convicted, and had not been
pardoned, and were now undergoing abroad the punish-
ments which had been inflicted upon them.
The Marquis of NORMANBY thought in those
general accusations it would be well to coma to some
little facts. He was obliged to the Noble Earl for
having referred to the case of Gannon and Ward,
which, it WAS asserted, had been decided by him in a
summary manner. These men had been tried and con
victed of an assault, and he had received a memorial
from the Hon. and Rev. Mr. Brown and others, stating
their firm conviction of the innocence of the parties.
That memorial ho had referred to the assistant barrister
Mr. Ellis. Mr. Ellis reported that it was a very doubt-
ful case, and that he would be very much guided by
the impressions which had been made upon Mr. Brown,
the local inspector of the gaol. Several communica-
tions had passed, and the result was that a sufficierit
degree of doubt appeared to justify the recommenda-
tions of Mr. Ellis and the other Magistrates: lie con-
scientiously believed that all the othrn cases could be
equally well justified, if he, l'lsrhaps, excepted some
minor offences connected sv;:t.'n faction fights, which were
then for the first time prosecuted with a vigorous hand,
and it was subsequently thought better to show a little
leniency. It was rather hard, after the minute discus-
sions which had taken place upon the case of Gannon
and Ward, that he should be now called upon for an
explanation, more especially after he had three or four
times in anticipation discussed the affairs of Ireland.
Earl RODEN begged to ask whether these
men had not been bound over to keep the peace, and
whether that condition had been complied with ?
The Marquis of NORMANBY really could not
say. He had given general directions that these con-
ditions should be in all cases enforced,
The Marquis of WESTMEATH had sat upon the
Bench at the trial of these men, and there had not
been the slightest difference of opinion as to their guilt.
There was some difference of opinion as to which of
the parties had committed the assault, and one of them
had attempted to prove an alibi, which had only in-
creased the evidence of his guilt. Athough he (the
Marquis of Westmeath) filled a situation in the county
which might have entitled him to be ,consulted, he
had never heard a word of the pardon of these men.
It had been asked why should he, but he (the Marquis
of Westmeath) would ask why he should not have
been consu ;ad ?—(Hear, hear.) He thought ass he
Lieutenant of that county that his opinion might have
been taken.
The Earl of WICKLO W was surprised to hear the
Noble Viscount opposite, who was connected with the
county of Tipperary, complimenting the Noble Mar-
quis, and stating that through his exertions perfect
tranquillity had been established in that country. The
public prints did not say so.—(Hear, hear.) It was
only a few weeks ago he read in them that a large party
of lawless men had come upon the Noble Viscount's
ground at night, and ploughed it up.—(Hear, hear.)
That might be Tipperary tranquillity, but it was not
tranquillity in any other sense of the word, and he be.
lieved the Noble Viscount had been obliged to call out
the Dragoons to protect his property.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Marquis wished that the whole conduct of
his government should come at once before the House
but where there were so many different causes of com-

fli°l
London: Printed and PuhE 0 ,
dited by MURDO YOUN 10
No. 112, Strand, at The Sun Olfice,No. 112, Stray
the ,:ouuty of .!;..tidle3eN.—Wednesday, February 17.