The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-03 00:00:00

clause would impose disabilities on honest men which the mittee to give a certificate, it was only said it should bo
unscrupulous would evade. It was the more revival of a lawful for them to do so. Therefore, while the witness was
clause of the 7th and Bth of George IV., cap. 37, which compelled to make a disclosure there was no guarantee that
worked so badly that it was subsequently repealed• he should be protected. (Hear.) The effect of the clause
Mr. J. POWELL seconded the amendment, would probably be that election agents would commit every
Sir M. FARQUHAR also supported the omission of the possible offence, and if they could not keep everything
clause, which he thought pushed legislation much too far. liLden, they had only to make a full disclosur©, and they
67.
In the town which he represented he had always employed would 4an indemnity. The clause was so loosely drawn
a most respectable firm, and if he were in their place he that the comul' ittee could not pronounce an opinion upon it.
should think it very hard if he were called upon to Sir G. GREY ca nerved that the amendment, if affirmed,
es.,
give his services gratuitously or else forfeit his vote. All would deprive commissit,lns of the power they now exercised,
this was mere subterfuge, and looked very much like sham and if that power were taken away bribery would be screened
and humbug. He should, therefore, undoubtedly support in the most effectual way.
the omission of the clause. Mr. HUNT said that the words in • the clause were so large
Lord HEN L./EY had seen so many instances of real poli- in their application that the sitting enember whose election
tical principle on the part of professional men that he might be under investigation by ri ,committee would be
thought it would be hard to deprive them of their votes, bound to answer any question put, and it• the answer led to
although paid for their services, the loss of his seat the proviso at the exit: of the clause
Mr. G. HARDY did not think, as men of common sense, would afford him no protection.
they could expect professional men to give up the business Mr. PEACOCKE thought it ought not to be left to the
in which they were engaged for the sake of any candidate discretion either of a commission or committee to give an
without receiving remuneration. indemnity. The grant of the indemnity should be obli-
Mr. F. S. POWELL observed that the provisions of this gatory, and if the person receiving it had not spokea; the
clause had been enacted by Lord Althorp, but being found truth he should be liable to an indictment for perjury.
inoperative were afterwards repealed. They would inflict Mr. BOVILL did not regard bribery as a greater caner?,
injustice on parties, and tend to degrade the character of than larceny or murder, and the principle of the clar.e
the electors. They would introduce the elements of uncer- ought, in consistency, equally to apply to the latter crimes,.
tainty in every case, and make a petition almost inevitable. If the house affirmed by legislation that persons answering
One curious difficulty would arise from the clause. A all questions with respect to bribery should be protected,
petition must be presented within a certain number of days, where could they stop ? It was difficult to say, from the
while a longer period was allowed to elapse before the pay- wording of the clause, whether those who would be com-
ment of election accounts, and thus petitions would be gelled to answer would be certain of obtaining a certificate.
presented upon the chance of some ground for their being Of all tribunals the least fit to be trusted with a discretion.
found in the accounts to be subsequently published. on such a point would be these commissions and committees.
Mr. VANCE thought the clause was not so much to Mr. J. POWELLremarked that the clause merely effected
carry out the views of the Government as to comply with the extension of a provision which had been in operation in
the supposed duty of carrying out the recommendations of this country for some time, and had produced most benefi-
a committee which sat three years ago, If the clause were cial effects. There was a distinction between the cases of
adopted it was certain to be evaded, as candidates would trial for larceny, murder, or other criminal offences, and
not employ voters, but would employ the sons and other the proceedings before these commissioners, because while
relatives of voters, who would be influenced just as much in the former case a particular individual was charged with
as at present. The law as it stood at present was quite a specific crime, in the latter there was no allegation of opo-
sufficient to punish over-employment at elections. cific offences against individuals, but the commissions were
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY thought that if the clause were distinctly and essentially commissions of inquiry. Unless
struck out the remainder of the bill would be of little or no persons were compelled to answer questions it would be of
value. no use to send these commissions into the country.
Mr. COLLINS hoped that, whatevercourse thecommittee Sir F. KELLY thought that the granting of certificates
might take, it would not place the humbler class of electors ought to be imperative upon the committee in cases
in
who acted as messengers and clerks upon a worse footing which witnesses hrid made a full and fair disclosure.
than the professional agents. Sir G. GREY pointed out that the part of the clause now
Sir G. GREY said the hon. and learned member for Cam- under discussion did not raise the question to which the
bridge (Mr. F. S. Powell) had referred to the 7th and Bth hon. and learned gentlemen had referred.
of George IV., chap. 37, in which a similar clause existed, After a few words from Mr. COLLINS,
and which Act had been repealed. It was true that the Mr. LYGON said that he should persevere with his
house declined to renew the Act until the whole subject had amendment.
been inquired into by a select committee. A committee did The committee divided, and the numbers were—
sit during two sessions, and they reported that the repeal of For the amendment
the Act 7th and Bth George IV. had been prejudicial to Against it
purity of election, and it was proved that since the repeal it Majority against the amendment — 8
had become the practice to employ large numbers of voters, On the motion of Lord R. CECIL, the Chairman was
not only as professional agents, but as doorkeepers and order to report progress, and the house resumed.
messengers, who, under the guise of payment for their ser- BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION (IRE"
vices, actually received payment for their votes. All that LAND) BILL.
the Legislature could hope to do in reference to this matter This bill, as amended, was considered.
was to make bribery and corruption as difficult and their On clause 23,
detection as easy as possible, and it was no valid objection Lord NAAS proposed that any person should be eligible
to any provision suggested with that view that it was open for the office of registrar, and that the appointment should
to evasion. Tho committee on which both he and his hon. not be confined exclusively to medical officers. He moved
friend the member for Leominster (Mr, Hardy) had sat an amendment to that effect.
agreed in recommending this clause. He had not himself Sir R. PEEL said the question had already been consi-
been present when this decision was come to, but his hon. dered by the house, the general opinion of which was in
friend was there. favour of the employment of medical officers.
Mr. HARDY said that, though he attended the meeting Mr. M'MAHON said there was no provision in the bill
of the committee on the day in question, he was not present that there should be a certificate prior to every burial, as
when this vote passed. in England. He approved the amendment.
Sir G. GREY said that at all events those of the corn- Mr. MAGUIRE thought the Government were quite
mittee who were present were unanimous in favour of the right in their proposal, and that the English system never
clause, and that being so he felt that he was bound to pro- could be adopted in Ireland.
pose the clause in deference to their opinion. The evil Col. DUNNE could not conceive a more clumsy or ill-
which it was intended to meet was clearly proved before drawn measure. Every clause had been forced on in the
the committee, and since the Bill was printed he had absence of many Irish members, and on every clause the
received letters from persons in different parts of the coulee majority of Irish members present had been against the
try who said they attached great value to this clause, Government. He did not see why the Irish people should
because the practice extensively prevailed of giving oolour- not choose whom they pleased for registrars, and he should
able employment at elections to persons who were really support the amendment.
paid for their votes. Mr. STACPOOLE and Colonel VANDELEUR approved of
The committee then divided. The numbers were— the bill, believing that no better appointment than that of
For the clause lO3 the medical officers could be made.
Against it
Majority against the Government —7 yield to the objections of the bill.
The clause was accordingly negatived, amid loud cheers The house divided, when there voted—
from the Opposition benches. For the amendmeat
Clause 3 was agreed to with some verbal amendments. Against it
On clause 4, Majority
Mr. AYRTON suggested that some substitute to whom The bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
bills might be forwarded should be provided for the agent; POST-OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS BILL.
otherwise in case of death or departure of the latter the ere- On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
ditor's claim would be defeated. (Hear.) Mr. lIUBBARD said he thought the provisions of the
Sir F. KELLY hoped his right hon. friend would add a bill should be confined to the first three clauses.
proviso to meet the point to which attention had just been The bill then went through committee pro forma, an
a
called. was ordered to be recommitted.
This clause was then agreed to. ADMIRALTY COURT (IRELAND).
On clause 5, providing for the publication of a statement Mr. MAGUIRE obtained leave to bring in a bill to alter
of election expenses, and amend the procedure and practice of the Court of .lid•
Mr. HUNT thought the time for publishing this state- miralty in Ireland, and the bill was read the first time.
ment ought to be curtailed from three to two months, as it ASSURANCES REGISTRATION (IRELAND)•
frequently happened that election committees were unable Sir it. PEEL obtained leave to bring iu a bill for the
to procure this document, registration of assurances in Ireland, and the bill was read
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was understood to as- the first time.
sent to the proposed amendment. PROMOTION AND RETIREMENT IN THE
Lord R. CECIL ventured to suggest that for all practical ROYAL N AVY.
purposes the legislation which was going forward might as On the motion of Lord PALMERSTON, the Select Cora'
well be carried on out of the house. (Hear and laughter.) mitten on Promotion and Retirement in the Navy was
The conversational tones of the Home Secretary and the nominated as follows :—Mr. Walpole, Sir Francis Baring.,
right hon. member for Durham prevented members below Sir John Pakington, Lord Clarence Paget, Sir John IlaY,
the gangway from hearing a single word. Mr. Stansfeld, Sir James Elphinstone, Mr. Ayrton, Sir
Mr. POWELL observed that the returning officer was Henry Willoughby, Sir Harry Verney, Sir William Miles'
to publish the statement "as soon as conveniently may be." Mr. Finlay, Mr. Maguire, Mr. Dodson, and Mr. Soul'
A very wide scope for discretion was thereby given, and he field, with power to send for persons, papers and records--
suggested some definite time should be named. five to be the quorum.
Sir G. GREY replied that the fixing of any definite time The house adjourned at five minutes past one o clock*
—say one or two months, would be accepted as the period
within which publication was to be made, and would retard
instead of accelerating the publication of the statement.
Mr. POWELL moved that " 14 days" be inserted, and
the motion was agreed to without a division.
Clause 5, as amended, was ordered to stand part of the
Bill.

COUNTRY MARKETS.

COLCHESTER—FEB. 28.
A fair supply of wheat, but trade was wretchedly dtiliP
and late prices barely supported. Barley quiet, at for
rates. Beans and peas unaltered.
Wheat, white 46s 52s Beans, Mazagan..3os
red
Barley
Oats

On clause 6,
Sir F. KELLY asked whether it was intended to apply a
limitation of one year to prosecutions under this Act, and to
place on limitation at all to prosecutions for offences at
common law that might be committed at the same election.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it would be incon-
venient to introduce into a bill of this kind a limitation of
the period during which prosecution s might be brought for
common law offences, such as bribery. The present bill
was not intended to interfere with the common law.
Sir F. KELLY thought it undesirable to leave a vindic-
tive person the power either of prosecutingjwithin a year
under this act, or beginning a prosecution at common law
three or four or five years afterwards.
Clause 6 was agreed to.
Clause 7 was also agreed to.
On clause 8,
Mr. LYGON moved the omission of the first part of the
clause which enacted that no person called as a witness be-
fore an election committee should decline to answer any
question on the ground that the answer might criminate
himself.
Sir G. GREY said that witnesses frequently refused to
answer questions before election committees, and the com-
mittees in consequence were unable to get to the bottom of
the questions referred to them. It was then necessary to
address the Crown for the appointment of a royal commis-
sion, by which considerable expense was incurred. If the
power in question could safely be given to three gentlemen
sitting as commissioners, it could surely be safely exer-
cised by a committee of the house.
Mr. LYGON objected to the employment of this power
either by a committee or a royal commission. The principle
sought to be established was a very dangerous one, and he
should prefer to see it restricted rather than extended. He
should certainly take the sense of the committee upon the
subject.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL admitted that it was a
departure from the ordinary rules of English law that per -
sons should be bound, whether they would or not, to answer
questions which might criminate themselves. But the pro-
viso at the end laid down that no statement made by any
person should, except in cases of indictment for perjury, be
admissible:against him. The clause was therefore disarmed
of its sting. The committee was aware of the almost insu-
perable difficulty there was in detecting corruption in the
cases to which the bill meant to apply, and it was therefore
necessary to have recourse to such a provision as that
which was now the subject of discussion.
After a few words from Lord LOVA.INE, which did not
reach the gallery,
Mr. HARDY said he had in committee opposed the re-
solution upon which the clause was formed, and he had still
greater objections to the clause itself, because it was wider
in its scope. The resolution of the committee was to the
effect that no one should be allowed to refuse to answer a
question which might tend to criminate him on the subject
of bribery; but as the clause stood no one could refuse to
answer any question, on the ground that it would tend to
criminate him. He contended that was too large a power
to put into the hands of either a committee or commission.
(llear, hear.) The committee could not be called to
account for giving or refusing a certificate, no matter
how truly a witness might have answered. Prosecu-
tions had been instituted in the Gloucester and Wakefield
cases, and convictions had been obtained, but the feeling of
the house and the country was against the proceedings, be-
cause it was felt that the persons had been trapped into an
admission of guilt. (Hear, hear.) It was true that the ad-
Imissions were not actually employed as evidence against
i the gentlemen in the Wakefield case, but they were used
lin procuring testimony against them. (Hear, hear.) The
ipower which this clause would give he would not intrust
to the judges of the land, still less would he intrust it to a
committee or commission. The provision was in his opi-
nion more corrupt than corruption itself. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. AYRTON thought the power which the clanse would
give too large, because according to it a witness might be
cross-examined on any point whatever. (Hear, hear.) It
would be necessary, therefore, to restrict the provision to
cases of bribery, Then it was not compulsory on the com-

. 28. t
To-day there wasGLOUCESTER—FEB a moderate supply of English sv--1, 81,a 0
from the farmers, which sold generally at is below 1,0
prices of last week, Barley, beans, and oats were at Vl'
prices.

CH ELM SF C
At this corn exchange to
again in everything, and pric,
Wheat, old white...34s 62s
new ..36s 50s
old red....40a 49s

-day there was a dull trade
as the same as last week. ng
yeas, Partridge 37s 40A
White Partridge,
39° 11
,
;-
3 z"
Boiling 4os
Dun 35$ c 7"
.--0
Ditto new --s „),4
Beans, Tick, old 34s °"-0
new --8 "10
Harrow Ticks 3ss 'l`_.'o
new —s „---Q5
30s "'
Mazagan

new 36s 47s
Barley 2s 36s
Chevalier 2Bs 39s

..... _
Grinding 22s 31s
Malt.
Chevalier . ..... >64s 69s
Oats 20s 28s

KIRKCALDY GRAIN—FEB. 28.
oriel'
We had large supplies of wheat, oats, and
Sales slow. Prices 6d to is per qr down.
Wheat. Barley. Oats.
First....34s Od I 26s 6d 20s 6d
Second ..40s Od 27s Od 1 21s 6d
Third....42s Od 29s Od 23s Od

[ADVEItTISEMENT.I —Holloway's Pills.—Nervous VllO
orders.—Derangement of the nervous system totally upFe:o
all human comfort, and unless speedily rectified leads Id
serious indisposition. The purifying, alterative,
strengthening qualities of these well-known Pills rendta
them remarkably efficacious in those various and
affections which attack the nerves, as neuralgia hYBteridy►
and habitual low spirits. Holloway's pills cool tne
clean the tongue, regulate the liver, and so strengthen,, ir
stomach and bowels that they are enabled to perform
sea
offices regularly and steadily. This medicine never taut,,,
any pain or in the slightest degree annoys persons ot
most relaxed, delicate, and irritable habits. HollowaYoo
Pills are small, tasteless, and easily swallowed, when
ordinary sized Pill could not be.

Births.
Di
COLLYER.—On the Ist inst., at Croydon, the wife of
Collyer, Esq., of a daughter. •fA of
PELLY.—On the 28th ult., at Warnham Court, the virl—
Sir J. Henry Pelly, Bart., cf a son. ak
SHEARIN 00D.—On the let inst., at Cedar Lodge, of a
well-park, the wife of George P. Shearwood,
son.

Marriages.
GRIFFITHS—AVERY.—On the 28th ult., at St. Matthews,
Bayswater, Mr. John Griffiths, of Brecknock, S. tiV
sq,,
to Juliet, the youngest daughter of W. R. Avery,
R. E.I C.S.
JENNINGS—TEMPLETON.—On the 26th ult., at Carader
road Chapel, John Jennings, of Mildmay-park,
ton, to Frances, eldest daughter of Francis Temp
let°
Esq., of Northampton-park, Canonbury,
Deaths.
klin, Eeq.,
F:LRoiraFwLaAcAAtgro;:x.ecaciDdh.ankx the
of 268, th ult., Maria, the wife of Bate,1
Gordon-place, Gordon-6
aged 46.
HIRE.—On the 27th ult., at the Royal Marine Infirrnel:
'Woolwich, Richard Davis Hire, Eeq R.N., 101.
Cornwallis.
JOIINSON.—On. the 2d inst., at Richmond, Mary, relict
00t►
'
the late John Johnson, formerly of Stoke Newiugt°
:Cgtieradel7-s 'anOK
.gntenhdtaeh4p2eBp6:2t
hEB t
t.
af.
t, t h
e_
Loch,—On
91. HatitinA4lomidedLrlsuemPliut'she-m,stpGrlef
o,:bgaferrswissiraticr:
On the Ist inst., at the Royal Hospital, Green'
Captain Francis Liardet, R.N., aged 65.
:-A:Ogonunsttuhtsehealns2dt7tLih'nst., at Erith, Miss J. L. Fetlicel
I:Enitoicno.N
aduyltyieArlrutertievl,ertfann.t of the

mrommommi....... co,
London: Printed and Published by WILLIMI AND,I!"riV!
of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SUN Office'l."'",7 0f
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the Collo',
hildtilesex.—Tuesday, March 3 1863.