The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-25 00:00:00

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EVEN I NG ED sTI 0 ' k,-td-7
,
less universal, as it was described s ,*7 iets)Actsa ; 4.;1:
On these grounds, therefore, he ventured to thin sit7Ae •:-.'-.
,
system of the Noble Lord, so far from promoting e tipk.
would tend to check and discourage the efforts alrea 4 '
in that cause. The scheme would not protect the sateg
of religion, and the adoption of normal schools vteSuir
lead to total indifference on all religious matters. The
Noble Lord in the observations he had made to the
House declared that Hon. Members on his (Lord Mahon's)
side of the House, were endeavouring to get the entire
controul and superintendence of the education of the coun-
try into the hands of the Clergy of the Established Church.
That assertion was most certainly unfounded, and the princi-
ple had been expressly renounced by his Right Hon. Friend
the Member for Tamworth. He had stated that where
the Dissenters were concerned, the Clergy of the Es-
tablishment were not justified in exercising any
controul or superintendence. lie had listened atten-
tively to the speeches of the Irish Members, and .
more especially those of the Hon. Member for
Waterford, and the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin, to ascertain :their opinions on the subject.
About four years ago, a Committee was appointed on the
motion of the Hon. Member for Waterford. Before that
Committee the Rev. Dr. Wiseman, the Principal of the
Roman Catholic College, was examined, and entered at
great length into the system of schools in the Papal States.
It was remarkable that while Roman Catholics were ceil-
ing out against the clergymen having controul over
schools, it was a principle they invariably adopted. In the
Romen Catholic schools, not a single laym,.n was em-
ployed. In Prussia, the joint system of education had
been tried, but it was not found to succeed. Then, they
had been told that in Switzerland it had answered. Now,
he would take upon himself to say that it had done no such
thing. Dr. Bowring, with respect to the joint system of
education in Switzerland, had said that it did not answer
there. The truth was that the joint system of education, with
Roman Catholics and Protestant., was very much discou-
raged in that country. He thought that the plan now
brought forward by her Majesty's Government ought to be
looked to with very great distrust, and if he was asked
what system of education should be carried on in this
country on safe and proper principles, he would answer by
pointing to the improvements that had taken place in this
country during the last century. When he looked to what
had been done, not merely in this country, but in others,
he must say, considering the religious persuasions of the
country, that he could not see any system that would do
so much good as that which now existed. lie wished the
British and Foreign School Society to go on advancing.
Grants to the National Society and the British and Fe-
reign School Society ought to be continued, as he felt con-
vinced the system of those societies was the best for develop-
ing education. He had no confidence in the plan proposed by
the Government, because he considered the discretionary
power given was bad. He was as desirous as 'any man for
the diffusion of education, but he thought that diffusion
could not take place under the plan proposed. Ile was
convinced that the present system of education would
work infinitely better than the plan proposed by her Ma-
jesty's Government, because, however well it might appear
in theory, it would not do in practice. The. Church had
made great exertions of late years in the principle of edu-
cation, and those exertions were not to be looked upon
lightly. He was sure if the House departed from those
principles they would not give satisfaction to the country.
It was one thing to tell the Roman Catholics, that they
should enjoy a perfect equality of tights, and another
to tell them that diffsrenees in faith should not stand
in the way of .education.—(H2ar, hear, hear.) From
his earliest years he had been the friend of Catholic
Emancipation, he was, and always had been, ready to con-
cede what was just to the Roman Catholics; he advo-
cated perfect equality of civil rights, but he could not
think that the proposed plan would be productive of such
beneintial results. Oa these grounds, looking to the
Noble Lord's system as open to very great objection, he
trusted the House would not sanction it. He trusted that
the House would take into consideration the 3,000 unani.
mous petitions that had been presented against the mea-
sure. He trusted it would not be said that the represen-
tatives had tamely consented to what their constituents hal
so indignantly rejected. He trusted they would recollect
that they were there to defend the interests of their consti-
tuents, and they would best consult their interests by voting
against the present motion.

Mr. BAINES said it appeared that the Noble Lord
who had just sat down had confounded two things which
were essentially different. He had confounded the Go-
vernment plans of the lOch of April and the 3d of June,
which were in his (Mr. Baines') opinion essentially dif-
ferent—the plan of the 10. h of April being liable to con-
siderable objection —( Hear, hear, from the Opposition
benches.) He had felt that, and he was ready to declare
it, and he had so expressed himself both publicly and pri-
vately.--( Hear, hear.) But when that plan had been
modified, it was unfair to bring against it the very same
objections. There had been considerable objection to the
ecclesiastical machinery—a Dissenting Chaplain and a
Roman Catholic Chaplain having been introduced in the
original plan, but these had been abandoned. It might be
said that Ministers had reserved to themselves the power
of reviving the original plan.-4 Opposition cheers.) He
understood that cheer, but it was not clear that if they at-
tempted to revive it the country that had already rejected
it would do so again.—(Loud cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen
might say, that when Parliament had been prorogued, and
the Members had gone to their constituents, the plan
might be revived; but would the country be silent, and
were there not many moles of giving expression to its
dissent ? Well, then, the Government had abandoned
what was objectionable in the- plan, and had adopted one
much better calculated to carry out the object they
had in view.—(Ironical cheers.) It was now at.
tempted to create objections to that plan, because
the Government refused to grant the public money, with.
out inspection and without responsibility.—( Hear, hear.)
He had heard the speech of the Noble Lord the Member
for North Lancashire with the greatest pain. He had
heard him enumerate suspicions of the feelings and the
honour and integrity of the persons be had been accus-
tomed to act with. Did not the Noble Lord recollect
how his own plan had been subjected to all sorts of can-
vas and censure, awl he himself reviled as wishing to re.
vive Popery in Ireland ; and yet the Noble ,Lord had the
manliness to do that which lie hoped her M jesty's Minis-
ters would have the manliness to do—to persevere in his
intentions. He hoped they would do this, and oppose the
weight of their characters to unjust suspicions.—(Chetrs.)
It was said that if education was granted to the people
without the superintendence of the Church, it would in-
jure the national religion. He contended that such would
not be the case; for, however the Dissenters and Catho-
lics might have a right to complain, the constitution of the
Board of Education was such as to preclude the Eita-
blished Church from all just ground of complaint. Much
stress had been laid upon the number of petitions presented
to the House against the plan. He was not one of those
who would disparage the petitions of the people, but if they
were examined, it would be found that nine-tenths of
them were not applicable to the plan at present before the
House. That was more especially true of the petitions
emanating from the Methodist body, a large portion of
which did not apply to the plan at present before the House;
and he would remaik further, that he did not find a single
petition from any dissenting body but the Wesleyan Me-
thodists. Therefore a very numerous body of Dissenters
had not petitioned at all. There was scarcely a single
petition ftom any body of the Protestant Dissenters, and
although they were not a very numerous class that was a
point which ought to have some weight with the House.
He would stow state to the House the sentiments of the re-
presentatives of the Independent, the Baptist, and the
Presbyterian congregations. They stated in the petition
he held in his lnd that they were grateful to her Ma-
jesty's Government for the plan proposed forest system of
general education—that they deeply lamented the exten-
sive ignorance of the people, and that a remedy ought to
be applied to that state of things. They felt persuaded
that no voluntary association could successfully grapple
with the evil, and they felt grateful to her Majesty for de-
claring that she wished to promote a system of general
education for the youth of the kingdom, in which their
religious instruction was attended to, while the rights of
conscience were preserved.— (Loud cheers.) Nothing
could more fully express the opinion of that
party than the s!aternents contained in that petition.—
( Hear.) It was quite impossible that there could be
a nic,rs favourable opinion of any plan. He was aware
that it was extremely difficult to overcome those prejudices
which more or less existed against any plan of national
education, of which religious instruction formed a com-
ponent part. In three cases religion, instead of being a
means of promoting education, tended to retard it. He
knew not how any Government could better discharge its
duty than by endeavouring to promote the education of
those who were ignorant ; and no matter how they might
modify it, there was no plan they could bring forward
which would not be open to some objection. For his (Mr.
Baines') part, with an anxious desire for the spread of
strongly
wishedim prto c seede t
hgeneral
opinionnd notha
that
ed
sectarian,°ucati
the proposed system was as little open to objection as any
n h
e whileva was h e
other that could be devised, and that the House would act
very unwisely in rejecting it. He thought Hon. Members
on the other side also acted very unwisely in raising a cry
(for divesting it of everything extraneous it wasa nothingivet d o
else
see
when that cry had been put an end to out o
hear.) He had lived
of
t)hoe fd; No Popery. "—(Hear,
Parliament, and within its doors, and he hoped he should
live to see the day when a system of general education,
like the present, would be'adopted allover the country, and
when the prejudices which had been artfully raised against
it had been suff,Ted to subside. Aft( r apologising for
having so long detained the House, the Hen. Member
concluded by declaring that he would support the vote,
and rosumed his scat amidst loud cheers.

hTaEd lfGallNenM O
froUinTsloiah
some Gentlemen
elnisttiecled cnwointh to t ahsoonthisehrmseidnet
to whatLold
of the House. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down appeared to think there was less objection to tho
present plan than to that originally proposed ; but did he
not recollect that the same Board that was to have had
the management of -the original seln,me was to have the
superintendence of the present ?—( Hear, hear.) He
( Lord Teigtimouth) differed from those who thought that
the British and Foreign School Society ought to be placed
on the same footing as the National School Society, be-
cause, in his opinion, the 13ritish and Foreign School
Society was a sectarian institution.—( Hear, hear.) They
had heard a great deal about the State having a con.
science. Every individual Member of the Legislature was
supposed to have a conscience—( A laugh)—and according
to that conscience they ought to act.—( Hear, hear.)
Now, in his conscience, he believed the doc-
trineshe believed every
a Member, to be true ; doctrine differ_ of the Church of England, cf which he was
lag from those of the Chuich to be false ; and therefore he
objected to any system of education by which the doctrines
of the Established Church were not diffused.—( Hear,
hear, from the Ministerialists. ) This, he was convinced,,
was the opinion of the majority of the people of England.
The Members of the Church of England amounted toms
times the number of all the Dissenters, including the Wet-
lYn
rdistson
'and he objected to giving one farthing
wsystem of education that was not founded ,
the principles of the Church.—( Hear, hear,
tny o d
from the
Ministerial benches.) He did not mean to say the instruc-
tion imparted by the British and Foreign School Society
was hostile to the Church of England, but "OIL as he had
before said, it was a sectarian institution. Hon. Gentle.