The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-25 00:00:00

LLOYD'S SHIPPING.-(THIS DAY.)

DEAL, Nov. 24.—Wind S:S.E. light airs.—Arrived the
Jupiter, Galbraith, from Calcutta; Lord Saumarez,
from the Mauritius. Arrived from the River, the St. James,
Peabody, from New Orleans ; Indian Chief, Hart, from Bar-
celuaa ; Alexander, Sclf, from Honduras, and remain with
the outward bound, the Alexander, for Charleston; Media-
tor, for New York; and the Nleanwell, for Rio Janeiro, have
sailed.

PLYNIOUTTI, Nov. 23. Wind S. W.
FALmotrit, Nov. 03.—Wind S. W. to W.--Arrived the
City of Londonderry (steamer), from Gibraltar, left 13th
inst., Cadiz 14th, Lisbon 19th, Oporto 20th, and Vigo 21st.
BrusToL, Nov. 24.—Arrivcd the Vintage, Williams, from
OpOrto.
DOVER, Nov. 24.—Arrived off Port, the Childo Harold,
from Bombay ; Bremen Packet, from New York; and Che-
rub, .Whittvay., from Seville.
PORTLAND, Nov. 24.—Arrived off port, the Spheroid, from
London, bound to St. Vincent's, dismuted, having beer, in
contact with the Sisters, from Stockholm to Batavia.

The Edward, Bonaffe, bound to New York, was totally
destroyed by fire at New Orleans, on the 30th ult.
The Lombard, Blackford, from East Port to Boston, was
on shore at Plum Island the 31st ult., and full of water.
The Flora, from Liverpool, has arrived at Rock Ryan with
loss of fort-top-mast, bound to Demerara.
The Pomona, Littlewort, from Tobago, has arrived off
Cat Keys on the II th ult., with loss of masts, &c., bound to
Liverpool.

TIIIRTY-SIX HOURS' AGONY.—That most inte-
resting weekly publication, " M. Thiers's History of the
French Revolution," has now reached its eighth number. We
never read, we confess, any narrative so full of absorbing in-
terest—so deep a tragedy as that related in the number pub-
lished this morning. Every body ought to read the terrible
details in this book—details not of mere gratuitous excitement,
but embodyinc, an awful and ewluring lesson. By its cheap.
ness and periodical issue, this valuable work is placed within
tile moans of all classes of the community.
There Supreme
icnotuerntdoefdsreestsiiroen-
ment: ofth
the
Lordl President
Scotland a tho venerable President is neatly 80, and in 1777
car;ic4l atvay the Dux medal in the High School of Edin-
-IMu rs(revived) o tlie of
4,41. His sense of hearing it said to be very considerably
affected, and he has occasionally to stop counsel and witnesses
to make them speak louder. On the other hand, it is alleged
he only delays retiring in the hope of seeing the Tories restuip
office.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—Nor. 24.

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A-sg'

The House sat at half-past four.
The Duke of RICHMOND and Lord MIDDLETON took
the oaths and their scats.

Lord KENYON presented a petition from Whitchurcla
in Shropshire, against the union of Sodor and Mann.
The Earl of ABERDEEN presented a petition horn
the members of the Stock Exchange, London. complaining
of the present system adcpted by the Post-office, and re-
COmmendira- Mr. Hill's plan to be carried into execution.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE gave notice, that on
Monday next he should present a petition from the Protes-
tant Association which had been entrusted to his care, the
principal object of which was to pray that Roman Catholics
might be excluded from scats in Parliament.
Lord BROUGHAM said, in conformity to what he
had stated last night, he bad to move for certain returns.
His Noble Friend was net in the House last night, no
doubt from his fatigue, owing to his heavy attendance
in the blouse for the last two or three months ; but having
now enmmunicated with him he found that there would be
no objection to the production of the returns, as there
mid not be, be wished to move for I—The first was, an
teount of all Sugars imported into the Criited Kingdom
from .the Colonies and Settlements of the West Indies,
during i!ct three years ending in January, IBa-t, viz., the
three years pi:resling the emancipation. The next
se as for a similar accono: af the imports for three years end•
ir g 11137—the three years subsequant to the emancipation.
His statement last night referred to those two distinct pe-
riods. The next was for a return of all sugars imported
from the West Indies into London during each of those six
years. it would be remembered that a certain portion of the
twenty millions granted for emancipation had been awarded
and either paid, or wa'a now payable, to the parties in whose
favour the awards had heal: made. He was informed
that this affected about seventeen millions of the amount ;
there remained, then, three millions still uraavrarded, and
subject to the claims of the different parties.
His next two motions were, consequently, in reference
to that measure. The first was for a return of all the sums
awarded by the Commissioners, stating the amount of each
award—the party to whom the award was made, and the
colony to which it applied. The next was a return of the
total amount of the sums yet claimed in respect of which
no award had yet been made. His next moOon was for an
account of all the sums paid in the shape of expensog
attending the Commission.
INIPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.
The LORD CHANCELLOR laid on the table the Im-
prisonment for Debt Abolition Bill—a Bill for the purpose
of amending the law between debtor and creditor, and abo-
lishing imprisonment for debt, except in certain cases of fraud.
The object of the Bill was to improve the remedy of credi-
tors against debtors, and at the same time to do away with
imprisoning, except in cases of fraud. The Bill, as now
presented to their Lordships, had received the sanction of
the House of Commons ; and as he thought it important
that their Lordships' attention should be called to it before
they had much other important business before them, lie
gave notice, that in now moving the first reading of the
Bill, he should move the second reading of it on the first
Tuesday of next month.
Lord ABINGER understood the Noble and Learned
Lord who had just sat down, to have said, that he should
not support the Bill, if it were merely a Bill to abolish
imprisonment for debt. The Noble and Learned Lord
stated he supported it on other grounds. Now he (Lord
Abinger) must say, that if the Bill were a measure for the
purpose of modifying to a certain extent the Law of Arrest
for Debt on ?nestle process, he should feel much disposed
to support it upon that ground ; but if he understood
the provisions of the Bill which came from the House of
Commons last Session, it was a Bill that, under colour of
giving to the creditor further security as a compensation
for the abolition of imprisonment for debt, occasioned so
great a change in the adjustment of property, that he for
one viewed it with very considerable alarm. In this coun-
try every man had a right to protect what he supposed
to be his just rights before every tribunal that the law
permitted. If he brought before the Court below
a question as to whether he had a right to bring an action
or defend an action, he had the advantage of their Lord-
ships' final decision. But one of the provisions of this Bill
was, that a judge, in the first instance, was to decide
whether a man had a defence or not from which there was to be
no appeal. He wished to suggest to their Lordships that,
upon a measure so important as this, affecting the relation of
debtor and creditor, the safest mode was to proceed by steps.
Some years ago a proposition was made to the House of
Commons for prohibiting the power of the creditor to arrest
for a debt on mesne process. It was thought proper to try
it on a limited scale at first : a good deal of opposition was
made to the Bill at one time, but it passed, and it turned
out to have a very useful effect.—(Hear, hear.) When
their Lordships considered that this was a Bill which
bad occupied the House of Commons during three ses-
sions, and which had not been passed in that Houle after
so much consideration, without considerable debate, their
Lordships would see that it was one which they ought not
to pass without much examination. It was not merely a
Bill for the abolition of imprisonment for debt, but a
Bill to alter altogether the laws relating to debtor
and creditor. He trusted, therefore, that his Noble
Friend would give them time to consider the Bill in its de-
tails before he pressed it to a second reading.

Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords, I rise to suggest the
expediency of not delaying the second reading of this Bill
longer than is absolutely necessary. If your Lordships put it
off for a fortnight or three weeks beyond the time specified by
my Noble Friend who introduced it, it appears to me as
unavoidable in that case that the measure cannot be passed
until after the recess ; and I think that if that be the case, it
will give great disappointment to the friends of the measure
both in the House and out of doors. But, my Lords, I do not
think with my Noble and Learned Friend opposite that it
is of necessity impossible that the Bill may be passed before
the recess.—(Cries of " Hear.") It has been amply dis-
cussed in the other House. It was not discussed merely
for three Sessions in the other House, as my Noble Friend
supposes ; but it was also referred for consideration
to a Select Committee up stairs, and its whole details were
scrutinized before that Committee ; and it was only
on the Report of that Committee the Bill was taken up
by the other House. I can see no reason why the Bill
could not pass in this House at least before Christmas—nor
do I see any, after what has passed already in the other
House in respect to this see no reason that it
should not pass before Christmas in that House also, unless
indeed your Lordships make very great alterations indeed.
I shall not trouble your Lordships with .going into a dis-
cussion of the details at this moment, a; I shall have
abundant opportunity to discuss them when the Bill ar-
rives at the proper stage for that discussion. I think, my
Lords, that as this not a new subject, to put off the second
reading to Friday week is abundant for the examination of
its details, or at least for principle.—( Hear.) I should not
further trouble your Lordships, but that I am extremely
anxious to set right a misrepresentation which has been
spread in other places, which arose out of a disap-
pointment occasioned by your Lordships' postponement
of this measure. It is a fact to which I can bear testi-
mony, that this House, in 1835, was not to blame at all,
whatever other sins it may have to answer for.—CA
laugh.) The Bill came up to us at so late a period of the
Session as my Noble friend, who was not then a Member
of this 11011.3 e, has actually stated—at a period of the Session
when we were still employed upon the Bill for the reform of
Municipal Corporations—at the end of the session—so late
as the sth of September—l ask if, under such circum-
stances, and at such a period, it was possible for us to
proceed with a measure which, although I am friendly to
the Bill, I must admit to be one of a large and
sweeping nature—such as no greater or more
sweeping change in the law of debtor and creditor was ever
made. I think, therefore, that on the sth of September we
could not enter into a discussion on such a measure.
But than it was said, also, that the bill was postponed
through the next Session of 1836. The blame of that
was thrown upon me ; against which blame I am minded
to de;end myself. Indeed I cannot say that it was blame,
for it was said with much courtesy by the Noble Duke op-
posite, and it was also stated with great courtesy in other
places, that the postponement of the Bill throughout the
Session of 18:36 was owing to my indisposition and conse-
quent non-attendance in Parliament. Now my Lords, that
was not the case. I should be very sorry if it were the case,
that through my indisposition, or through my absence from
my duties in this House, so important and bene-
ficial a change of the law should be postponed. But
when it was put off, at the end of the Session of 1835,
it was agreed at my suggestion, I believe, and with the
concurrence of the Noble Duke, that in the following Ses-
sion we should avoid the same manner, and that at the
early part of the next Session, we should proceed to those
measures which were to originate with us or which had
already passed the other House, leavine for the
latter part of Session plenty of time to entertain such
measures as might come up to us from the other House.
It was admitted on all hands that the right course was to
originate the Bill in this House at the beginning of the
Session. That was the understanding with the Noble
Duke opposite, upon my proposition, and that was the
understanding which was assented to by my Noble
Friend at the head of his then Majesty's Government.
Thee came the next session of Parliament, and according to
the arrangement which had been thus made, I supposed
it would have been brought in at a period when there was a
good chance of its passing. Instead of that it was post-
poned to the 18th June—( A Noble Lord—The 1
it in
ashen if there were not solid reasons for postponing tm the
minds of many Noble Lords, there was at least a fair and
plausible pretence for laying it aside again. I was not here
myself, and I do not therefore mean to say that any pretences
mere resorted to, or that there were not solid reasons for post-

polling it—l form no opinion on the subject. But it was said
here, and it was said elsewhere, that in consequence of my
unfortunate absence—unfortunate in more than one parti-
cular—that the moasure had been again postponed. Now,
my Lords, there was not the shadow of-foundation for that
statement. My Noble Friend at the head of his then
Majest,v's Government knows that there was not a shadow
of foundation for that statement. Ten days before the
beginning of the session of 1836, I corresponded with him,
reminding him of the arrangement that bad been come
to ; but, above all remindirg him that the Bill for the
Abolition of the Imprisonment for Debt had been post-
poned, on the express compact and understanding that
it would be brought in at the beginning of the next
session ; and when my Noble Friend suggested that he
hoped I would be able to attend and take charge of that
measure, I having originated it in the other House, my
answer to my Noble Friend was, (and I have his reply ac-
knoa hedging the receipt of it, which was also before the be-
ginning of the session, in order that I might give him the
earliest notice on the subject that I could net attend,
that I was forced from my state of health to remain away,
but that I hoped, instead of being able to attend at the
beginning of the Session, I had compounded (for that was
my expression) for beingable to come by Easter; but before
that it was entirely out of the question, and that he must
look out for some other person to take charge
of this measure in pursuance of the compact. I have also
the answer deny Noble Friend, received before Parliament
begun, in which lie courteously, as he always writes, ex-
pressed his regret at the state of my health, but that he
had taken steps to have the measure brought on. I will
leave this statement of the case to your Lordships. Persons
in utter and dark ignorance of what had occurred,
in another House, have thrown the blame of the post-
ponement of that important measure upon my illness.
—(Hear, hear.) I hope that I have satisfied your Lord-
ships that you are not to blame for the postponement of this
measure in 1835, and that the blame was not mine in 1836.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said a few words,
which, owing to his Grace turning his back to the
Gallery, and the low tone of voice in which he ut-
tered them, were almost entirely inaudible. We
understood him to say, that their Lordships did not object
to the principle of the Bill, and we believe that he entered
into some explanation as to the causes of the postponement
of the Bill in 1836. He said the Bill was different from
the one introduced in 1837, and he also said, that their
Lordships ought to have an opportunity of fully and fairly
considering the measure.
Lord BROUG H AM—I did not complain of the post-
ponement of the Bill on a former occasion by your Lord-
ships, but of a misrepresentation elsewhere.—(Hear,
hear.) An Honourable Member having asked an Hon.
Friend of mine why the Bill was not brought forward, and
urging him to introduce it, he got up and stated that the
reason of the delay was my absence from indisposition. My
Lords, that was stated in utter ignorance of all that had
passed upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST—My Lords, your Lordships
complained that the Bill, after being allowed to languish in
the House of Commons, was sent up in a hurry at the close
of the Session to your Lordships' House, without allowing
you time for giving it proper consideration ; and, my Lords,
I think it was a very just ground of complaint.—(Hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR said his object merely
was to direct their Lordships' attention to the fact, that
the House had never expressed any opinion adverse
to the principle of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) As to the
part of his Noble and Learned Friend's observations
which applied to the lateness of the bringing in of the
Bill in 1836, it was quite obvious, that as he (the Lord
Chancellor) had taken upon himself the conduct of the
Bill, he alone was responsible for not having brought
it in earlier.—(Hear, hear.) He was willing to take
upon himself the blame that was due to him in that respect,
and ho was quite willing to state the reasons of it. It was
very well known, that his Noble and Learned Friend was
at that time detained in the country from illness—( Hear)—.
and he certainly was not to blame for the delay, but un-
doubtedly the innocent cause of it, inasmuch as he (the
Lord Chancellor) considered that he was rendering the
most beneficial service to the promoters of the Bill,
to delay bringing it forward until it was likely to obtain
the assistance of his Noble and Learned Friend. The
Noble Lord knew nothing of that—he imputed no blame to
him in that respect—but undoubtedly it was delayed with
a view to have his assistance. He was desirous the House
should have every opportunity of considering the principle
and effect of the Bill. With that view he should wish the
House to take it into consideration as speedily as possible,
but still, if it were thought that the day he had named was
too early for the second reading, he had no objection that
the second reading should be delayed, if required, a few
days more.
-Lord BROUGHAM rose, and with great energy said—
I did not say my Noble and Learned Friend blamed me
more than I said the Noble Duke blamed me ; but I
blame him—l blame him exceedingly, now that he tells
me that his cause of postponement in bringing in the Bill
was in consequence of my absence.—(Cries of " Hear.")
He ought not to have done so. With all the kindness
and courtesy that he may have intended towards me,
there is mixed up with it so much of the grossest
mistake of facts, the most entire want of recollection of
dates, the most crassid and dark ignorance of every
one particular which prevailed during even the first
four months of that year, as utterly astonishes me.—
(Hear, hear.) There is not the shadow of a shade of
foundation for the statement. I say it with all possible
respect to my Noble and Learned Friend, that he has
totally forgotten all the particulars, or that he was utterly
misinformed, or that he was grossly ignorant of all the facts
that took place during the first five months of the last year.
If any one person bad had communication with my Noble
Friend at the head of his Majesty's Government, they could
not have had the least doubt whatever that I should not. be in
my place till Easter—that was certain—and that after Easter
I should also not be in my place—and that was perfectly
certain. No one knew that better than my Noble Friend
at the head of her Majesty's Government, and the Bill must
have been postponed for some other reason which my Learned
Friend, in the multiplicity of his business has forgotten,
and not on account of my absence.
Lord ABINGER proposed that the second reading
should be taken on Monday or Tuesday fortnight.
Lord MELBOURNE objected to that delay. Would
not such a course be dawdling with business ? lie
had no particular interest in the Bill, nor was lie
particularly desirous that the object of this Bill
should be carried into effect—but he had great
anxiety for the regularity of the proceedings of the House ;
lie had an anxiety that it should appear that the public
business of the House was not unnecessarily delayed or
procrastinated.—(hear, hear.) One of the first counts in
the indictment which the Noble and Learned Lord oppo-
site (Lord Lyndhurst) annually preferred against the
Ministry at the end of the Session—(Laughter)—was ,
why had they not proceeded with the Imprisonment for
Debt Bill—why had they not proceeded with the Bill to
remedy this great evil—and why had they slumbered
upon that?—(Hear.) Ile was, therefore, not only anxious
for the sake of the House that no further delay should take
place, but also that the Government might not at any
future period be made the subject of reproach. 0.1 the
whole he thought it better that the date of his Noble
and Learned Friend on the Woolsack should stand.
The day originally proposed for the second reading of
the Bill by the Lord Chancellor was agreed to.
Lord \VII A RNCLIFFE presented a petition from the
Chamber of Commerce of Dundee, praying for Reform in
the Post-office arrangements, and particularly in fits our of the
plan as propounded by Mr. Rowland Hill.
The House then adjourned.