The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

That
resulted from it.l----I—.---'.----
i qualification, therefore, r-
stead of inducing constituted him to hasten the progress of this measure,
one of the very reasons why he wished first to
have the Poor-law before them, in order that it might be
seen whether a different and better qualification could not
be adopted. The evidence taken before the Longford Elec-
'!erytion Committee showed that perjury had been carried to a
great extent as regarded the qualification. He should
ITbe anxious to guard against this in the introduction of the
iatiple of popular election into the corporations of Ireland.
itwithstanding what had fallen from the Noble Viscount
this
((Melbourne), he was not afraid to go before the country upon
question.( Hear
House prcposed to delayhear.) They on that side of the
the further progress of the Bill
of
untilll they saw a better or final settlement could not be made
a the questions at present at issue between that House and
't.hee. House of Commons. They asked no compromise—they
vt sired no compromise.—( Hear, hear.) Let the other mea-
aM'es he brought before them, and they would deal with them ;
4" if those other measures appeared calculated to lead to a
:settlment
'enter in of the tithe question in Ireland, they would then
the to the consideration of this Bill, and discuss it upon
lar principle
for upon which it proceeded—the principle of popu-
election
The Duke of W municipal offices.
0 E
LLIN G T 0 N rose to reply, but was
r some time totally inaudible in the Gallery. The Noble
Marquis (the Lord President of the Council) and the
,Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had laboured
Bird A toa show that there was no connection between this
-s' difficultyti un le question of the Irish Church. The great
laboured we der which the Church in Ireland at present
's the state of the tithe question—a state entirely
tieing tone measures of Parliament. It was the tithe ques-
n tlyat had brought the Irish Clergy to a state border-
'bug cra starvation; and that question was constantly kept alive
RV 'a system of agitation extending over the whole country.
~e was anxious to avoid additional agitation—the authorita-
je agitation that would ensue through the medium of these
-th". Councils—Councils acting under the influence and au-
of of those very persons who were now the chief agitators
0 the country--Councils elected to their situations by the
,er.)' lowest class of the people, who, in their turn, were un-
:uer the protection and direction of the great opponents, he
`antclutql not call them enemies—he should be sorry to speak
qant Es
bIY of any body but the great opponents of the Protes-
tablished Church in Ireland. It was, besides, to be
reimelobered that these Town Councils so elected by the lower
-heta.ass ors, w-
cif the people, and so directed and governed by the agi-
..
wild exercise an influence and power not only within
3.helt limits and precincts of the town to which they belonged,
1.1111, orer all the adjoining district within a circle of seven
,c,". So that in several instances the jurisdiction of these
...es.
Councils perhaps of very small towns—would
`extent= into three or four counties. Was that desirable whilst
41,0 agitation of the tithe nue?—( H ear.) He
Imat that question to the Nobles Viscount conti
(Me d
lbourne) and de-
sired him to answer, was it not reasonable that those who had
s regard for Ireland, should desire to pause—to wait until
~,o3' consented they knew what the Irish tithe measure was to be, before
to the C
''
to adopt this measure, with respect
se orporations ?—(Hear, hear.) His object was to pre-
"urve the Protestant Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) That
s the true policy of this country—a policy which the sove-
reigni and every Member of that House, as well as of the
If°llsthaetof Phe olle Commons, had sworn to maintain.—( Hear, hear.)
continu y were to be changed—if it were no longer to
e tof
establish policy this country to maintain its Protestant
ITght
ments and institutions, they on that side of the House
at least to be informed of the fact before they were
"'issued for taking a course which they deemed necessary for
itlit
ancoforePreservation of the Irish Church—( Hear, hear)—and
Cheers.)
especially ought they to be informed of any such change
Principle and policy before they were threatened with cer-
(lain proceedings On the part of the House of Commons.—
, The House then divided, when the numbers were for the
"Juke of Wellington's amendment-
- Contents present 132
Proxies
60

Non-contents present
Proxies

---- 192
81
34

- 115

Mejority in favour of the Duke of Wellington's
amendent, and against Viscount Melbourne's
„nolotioni
4.heir Lordships then adjourned.

ZIOUSIII OF COMMONS, MAT 5.
The SPIAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
LONGFORD ELECTION.
geared Th. Clerk of the Crown for the County of Longford ap-
i;, at the bar, and amended the return by inserting the
‘i,-Zie,°f Mr. Fox instead of that of Mr. White. Mr. Fok
f tutu introduced by Lord Cole and Mr. Sergeant Le-
r-i-,_and he took the oaths and his seat.
ford the motion of Mr. K. TYNTE, a new writ was moved
L. "2.e I.orough of Bridgewater, in the room of John Temple
1;4"S Esq., who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
C. BURRELL postponed the motion of which he had
'44lts notice, relative to the Brighton Railway Committee
Atkin g a special report to the House of the engineering diffi-
tillties of the various lines submitted to them. His reason for
p°stponing the motion was, that he believed an amicable ar-
"getnent was about to take place betweenolera in t parties.
On the motion of Mr. KIRK the Che
Road Bill was
''.l4 a third time, and passed.
11ir. ESTCOURT presented a petition from Mr. Cot-
t'iagham, one of the architects who had made a design for the
ew Houses of Parliament, complaining of injustice having
uren done him in the adoption of his plan by Mr. Barry.
The SPEAKER intimated that the petition was of a public
gliturei and could not be received.
o The Host, MEMBER stated that he would present it if an
PPortunior offered in the course of the evening.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition against the
49,e.imeeheater and Cheshire Railway Bill.
'"
thir4,4 Leicester arid Seranington Railway Bill was read a
t and passed.
BRIGHTON RAILWAY.
Lord G. LENNOX presented a petition from the Direc-
ars of Stephenson's Brighton Railway Company, which
.tt..ated that they had inspected the subscription of the South
4i?stern Line of Railway to Brighton, and found that it con-
ned only 7They also' founds aboe the um
the na required f
bGeor y the orders of ome oge Hinde
P.ruitl (I°l'm House.
for 30,0001., and giving the address, Islington.
pa eY had made strict inquiries, and could not find that any
fr;rBnn of that name lived in Islington. They had, however,
ford that a person of that name was clerk to the solicitors
I; the Bill, and that he was a subscriber to the Deptford and
42yer Railway to the amount of 10,000/. He had been ex-
th":lloed before that Committee, and it was found very clear
14b0 could not afford to pay that sum.—(Laughter.)
fay, r• C. BRUCE presented a petition from Linlithgow in
ti..eur 9f the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway, and one from
xtqlPaisley, Glasgow, and Ardrossan Canal Company against
asgow,. Paisley, and Greenok Raily.
cc7r*WILKS presented a petitionc from the waLondon Cemetery
pany hgainst the Portland or Northern Cemetery Bill.
Vt'r• PEASE was sorry that lie had not been in his place
lerday when the question was asked with respect to the
,4t°nal Endowment Insurance Company. He was then un-
-I.ttre of the provisions of the 4 William IV. cap. 94, which
y,!redered the Bill unnecessary. It had then been made an
der of the t if he were in order he woul
tsar the Bill be read a second time that day six months. moves.
AgThreen SPEAKER said the motion was perfectly in order.—
d to.
11,
Ir. WASON moved that the Committee on the Ipswich
provement Bill have power to send for persons, papers, and
teCords.
v.. Lord G. SOMERSET complained that it would be giving
Luo great a power to a private Committee.
After a few words from Mr. WAiON, the motion was
agreed to.
On the motion of Sir G. STRICKLAND, the Ilolmc
sieservoir Bill was read a third time and passed.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY presented a petition front an indi-
uUali a landowner, on the line of the Birmingham and Derby
Railway Company, complaining that the Standing Orders had
net been complied with.
Sir J. GRAHAM suggested that the petit ion should be
presented and taken into consideration on
Monday.
Sir E. WILMOT denied the truth of the statements con-
tained in the petition.
After a few words from Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE and
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, the Motion was agreed to.
CLUNE FOREST (SALOP) INCLOSURE BILL.
On the motion of Mr. R. CLIVE, the Chine Forest
(Salop) Inclosure Bill was read a third time and passed.
Mr. H. lIUGIIES presented a petition from the inhabi-
tants of Oxford, in favour of the Manchester, Cheshire, and
Staffordshire Railway Bill.
Sir G. CLERK presented a petition against the Edinburgh
and Glasgow Railway Bill.
Sir R. FERGUSON presented two petitions from Pas-
testant Dissenters in Nottingham in favour of the Ministerial
Church-rate abolition plan.
Mr. GASKELL presented a petition against the abolition
Of Church rates.
lIMr. RAMSBOTTOM presented petitions from Hereford
TNI Buc
Dkin.gham, in favour of the better observance of the
...orch,
ay
Mr. HALFORD presented a petition from the Guardians
',4lre
the Poor of a Union in Leicestershire, complaining of cer-
gulati
"equal modeons of the Poor-law Commissioners, and of the
of parochial assess ment.
_ommste,
is
e,Calltain WINNINGTON presented a petition from Wor-
u againsts the system of Unions adopted by the Poor-law
sioner.
Sir
i JOHN BECKETT presented a petition from a place
bill rerkbire, complaining of the present system of registering
marriages and deaths.
0171ar• PIEL-Dn presented petitions from the township of
vat !rn, and various other places in Lancashire, praying for
Sui ed f
L'ballet, and the abolition of the property qualification
or Membets of Parliament.
Mr ctri
Paw,: -EEN presented a petition, praying for the speedy
r'`g of the Imprisonment for Debt Abolition Bill.
of `eilyenel
the parish
THOMPSON presented a petition from
of th ersedge in the county of York, praying for the repeal
M.
Mr. Poor L'atv Bill.
Shire WILES presented petitions from parishes in Oxford-
Mr. "d Essex, in favour of the Church-rates Abolition Bill.
frato Essex, in
presented petitions with a similar prayer
L parishes in the county of Dublin.
re,..ord EASTNOR presented a petition from Reigate, Sur-
Jmagainst the measure for abolishing Church-rates.
a petition from Ros-
rne°Etrontnru.on?'beut°NNOß rose to present
was interrupted by the entrance of the Gentle-
the liosher of the Black Rod, who summoned the House to
House of
w-hieh see Lo
ords, to hear the Royal Assent given to various
Lo s Report.

The O'CONNOR DON presented a petition from Ros-
common in favour of the present government of Ireland.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for the
House going into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD wished to know from the Noble
Lord at the head of the Home Department, when it was the
intention of his Majesty's Government to proceed with the ad-
journed debate on the Irish Tithe question?
Lord J. RUSSELL'S answer was inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIE N wished to know whether it was
the intention of his Majesty's Government, to bring in a Bill
for the Registration of Births and Marriages in Ireland ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Though he thought the mea-
sure good, it was not fit to be carried into effect yet.
Mr. ROBINSON gave notice that on Monday he should
put a question to the Government--whether the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was in his place or not—
relative to the relations of this country with Portugal.
ENDOWMENTS IN THE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
Sir W. RAE then rose, for the purpose of calling the at-
tention of the House to the report of the Church of Scotland
Endowment Bill. In 1835 he submitted to the considera-
tion of the House a motion respecting the grant of an endow-
ment to the Church of Scotland, with the view to having
a Committee appointed to inquire into the question.—( Hear. )
The Noble Lord opposite proposed a Commission having the
same object, and he had yielded to the appointment of that
Commission, upon the distinct understanding that reports
should be made from time to time, so as to enable
the Government to apply suitable remedies to the cases that
would be brought before them. Two years elapsed before that
report was laid on the table, and he did expect that, considering
the nature of that report, Government would have thought it
their duty to .have brought the subject under the consideration
of the House, as it was manifest there was a great destitution
of religious instruction in Scotland. Early in the Session the
Noble Lord, in answer to a question of his, informed him the
report was under the consideration of Government, but that
he could not pledge himself to any proceeding on the subject.
That answer of the Noble Lord had been neither satisfactory
to him nor to the country ; he had thought it to be his duty
to bring the question before the House. If the Noble Lord
lied stated Government were prepared to come forward with a
grant in favour of those institutions, the present discussion
would have been saved. The people from one end of Scot-
land to the other were excited on this subject.—( Hear, hear.)
It was no party question, because numerous gentlemen
professing Whig principles had attended meetings which
had been held on this subject.—( Hear,- hear.) Those
meetings had been held for the purpose of imploring
the Government to provide for the religious instruction
of the poor, upon the ground that it was the duty of the State
to provide for the established religion of the country.--( Hear,
hear.) When he last had the honour to bring that subject
before the House, in the year 1815, he had stated that a sub-
scription of 60,0001. had been entered into for the religious
instruction of the poor of Scotland. The people of Scotland
were now willing to lay a sum of 150,0001. on the altar of
Christian charity, for the highest good of the family of man-
kind; and they now turned to their rulers, in the fond hope
that their contribution would be met with one of equal
amount, to enable them to carry the plan into effect.
The Right Hon. Baronet then adverted to the Report and
the resolutions upon which the Commission was founded, stat-
ing that he thought it necessary for the purpose of ascertain-
ing whether the Church of Scotland was in want of aid from the
Government. The Government, in his opinion, by appointing
that Commission, had pledged themselves, if it was found that
the Church of Scotland required aid, they would give it.
fled they done so? He would leave the House to answer that.
There were at this moment wanting in Edinburgh 25,000 sit-
tings for individuals not belonging to any dissenting congre-
gation. It was a melancholy and dismal fact that out of a po-
pulation of 162,000 persons, which was the population of
Edinburgh, no less than 40,000 or 50,000 persons habitually
absented themselves from places of worship.—( Hear, hear.)
The people of Scotland had too independent a spirit to accept
Church sittings for nothing. They were not able to pay, and
therefore it was they kept away from Church.—( Cheers. )
The large body of Scotch Dissenters, he would assert, without
fear of contradiction, were not: opposed to the grant : 11,000
sittings in the Dissenting Chapels of Edinburgh alone were
unoccupied, and it was utterly impossible, therefore, they could
lower their seat rents in order to admit the poor. Edinburgh
would require 60,000 sittings, and 25,000 at the'very least
were required at the present moment to afford anything like a
decent accommodation. .The next point to be considered was
the means of affording religious instruction- It was admitted by
all persons who had turned their attention to the subject, that
one Clergyman could trot provide in a satisfactory way for the
spiritual instruction of more than 2,000 persons. Now the
number to each of the Clergy in Edinburgh (as we under-
stood), was 2,717, that was somewhere about 800 more than it
ought to be ; the Clergy, therefore, could not sufficiently
attend to the spiritual instruction of the people as matters now
stood. Was it not a most melancholy thing that out of a po-
pulation of 162,000 there were not less than from 40,000 to
50,000 in the habit of absenting themselves altogether from
any place of public worship. Did not that single fact suffi-
ciently prove the justice and propriety of the conclusion to
which the Commissioners came, that the present opportunities
of attending public worship and receiving spiritual instruction
were not adequate to the wants and the amount of the popu-
lation? One of the causes assigned by the Commissioners
for the habitual absence of so large a number from any
place of worship was a want of decent clothing (as we
heard) ; but might not this be fairly traced to habits of dis-
sipation arising from inattention to Christian duties, and
could there be a doubt that this inattention was caused mainly
if not entirely by the want of a sufficient number of places of
worship in which the humbler classes might be accommodated?
Let this accommodation be provided, and they who were now
dissipated would return to industrious habits and attend to their
duties as Christians. This was abundantly proved in the case
of some churches recently built. They were soon fired by
people who had never before gone to any place of worship.
Another cause assigned was, that they who did not go to a
place of worship absented themselves for the purpose of taking
relaxation after the labour of the week. Now this was not the
case. The character of the people of Scotland contradicted
this view of the case. All the relaxation the people of Scot-
land desired on the Sabbath Day was to go to their church.
As matters now stood it was vain to hope that the high price
of seats in the churches of Edinburgh, whether those of the
Church of Scotland, or of Dissenters could be reduced-. They
were in debt, and for the payment of the interest, as well as
for the adequate remuneration of the clergyman, the price of
the scats must be kept up.—( Hear, hear.) The humbler
classes of Scotland did not seek to have their scats for no-
thing. They were ready to pay a moderate sum for their
accommodation, but the seat rents were now so high that
the poor were necessarily excluded. He was quite ready to
acknowledge the obligations which the people of Scotland
owed to the Dissenters. Without such accommodation there
must have been a still greater deficiency of the means of reli-
gious instruction. At the time of the Reformation these
means were accommodated to the amount of the population.
That population having greatly increased, without a propor-
tional increase of churches, it followed that were it not for the
Dissenters, the consequences would have been far more deplo-
rable even than they were. ' He contended that the Dissenters
themselves—at least a very considerable portion of them—were
not opposed to increased accommodation for those of the Na-
tional Church at the expense of the public. They had been
asked whether it was not by voluntary contribution that the
Dissenters provided for the building of their churches and the
maintenance of their Clergy ? But had they the means of
knowing how far this principle had been successful? The
Dissenters refused to make any returns, showing what the
amount of their debts were. Now it was of the last importance
that this should be known, and yet the Commissioners gave no
information upon so important a point. They should have in-
quired, also, how many of these Dissenting houses of worship
had been built merely on speculation, and with a view to the
profit that might arise from the seats. In Edinburgh alone
there were not less than eleven thousand sittings unoccupied in
Dissenting places of worship, and in the other churches
the case was similar, because the rents of the scats could not
be reduced. He would now come to the consideration of
pastoral superintendence. The Commissioners declared in
their report that the charge for seats must be reduced ; but
that, in addition to this, -an impulse must be given to induce
those to attend a place of worship who hitherto, from want
of accommodation, were not in the habit of doing so. Now,
the mode of impulsion suggested was a very simple one.
The Right Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from the
report, respecting the scat-rents and the duties of the pastor.
Now, this had been proved by what had actually taken
place, both in Edinburgh and in Glasgow. This could not
he effected by the voluntary principle. It could not be
relied upon. That principle had been put to the trial both
is and out of the Established Church of Scotland—it had
1 een tried in chapels of case, and it had failed. The corn:
bincd efforts of the Dissenters had not succeeded in giving it
complete success, for even in Edinburgh alone there were
50,000 who had no opportunity of receiving religious in-
struction. Were matters to remain in this state ? Was there
they any
venture Gentleman
to
ay
that oughtosit e side
to or
remain
them a
i'ri He House who would
were
these 50,000 to be reclaimed from the deplorable state in which
they must be, as regarded religious instruction ? It was from
this class, and from the purlieus of the city of Edinburgh, that
the calendars were filled with criminals. Of what consider-
ation was the paltry sum of ten thousand pounds or twelve
thousand pounds a-year, to be expended in the endowment of
Churches, compared to the advantage of reclaiming so many
from their evil ways and their present degraded
condition ?
It was to this circumstance—the want of adequate Church ac-
commodation—that he imputed the great advance which crime
had made within the last thirty years. In the year 1815, the
expenditure, under the head of prosecution of crime was only
six thousand pounds, while in 1836 it was thirty-six thousand
pounds, and in the present year would be thirty-four thousand
pounds. What cause could be assigned for this great increase
but a gradual decline in the moral and religious habits of the
people, arising from a want of sufficient Church accommoda-
tion ? The people of Scotland themselves were ready to
come forward and contribute their portion towards the ex-
pense of erecting additional Churches, and of endowin
g
them, without
any wish to share in the patronage.—(llear,
hear.) All they desired was, that the humbler classes' . might be accommodated with seats at a moderate charge.—
( Hear.) Was it too much to ask that the Government should
assist in conferring so great a blessing
onl Scotland, which con-
tributed no less than 4,500,0001.t0 the taxes ? It
might be said that they had as
•eatererl
sub-
ject , of Tithes in Scotland. heThis information of the
denied. A return,
showing their amount, was already
obtained, and there was no
occasion to wait for that. Were the
ve
make any proposition ? There was government prepared prepared to
property in
Scotland upon which they could lay their heads. BefOre the
co
Reformation the Church was in possession of
perty, but that was finally disposed of. Now, he i
tvderao üblle pro-
this question to the Noble Lord—was it the intention
ef 4pout
vernment to take the whole Scotch Tithes, and to convert them

into one fund ? If so, the Noble Lord must take all ti;'
Tithes belonging to lay impropriators. It had been intimated
in some quarters that the subject had been delayed because in
point of fact it was not worthy the attention of Government.
He could assure the Noble Lord, however, that it produced ;•
strong sensation in Scotland. Allusion had been made to
in the Speech from the Throne, which had produced th,
greatest satisfaction in Scotland, and greatly excited the hopes
of the people. But not a single step had been yet taken
towards the accomplishment of the expectations that had bee:
raised. It was true, indeed, that a Committee was granted,
and Commissioners appointed, but no more. Governmete
held out the word of promise to the ear, but broke it t,
the hope. It was not a party question. If it was hi,
object to favour the party with which he was in the habit of
acting, he could not do it more effectually than by allowing'
Ministers to put off indefinirely the considerwion of this qucs
Lion. If a i attempt should be made to set it aside upon an.
pretence, it would produce more excitement irt his country that
the Noble Lord was aware of, and he would see the Scotel,
thistle branching forth more vigorously than ever. Let the
Noble Lord, therefore, come forward manfully, and declare
what he was prepared to do upon a question most essential to
the well-being of Scotland.—(Cheers.)
The question having been put from the Chair, that the fol-
lowing resolutions be agreed to :
" 1. That an Address having been presented to the King
by the House of Commons, humbly praying, ' That his Ma-
jesty would be graciously pleased to appoint a Commission t,
inquire into the opportunities of religious worship, and means
of religious instruction and pastoral superintendence afforded
to the people of Scotland, and how far these are of avail fee
the religious and moral improvement of the poor, and of the
working classes, and with this view, to obtain information re-
specting their stated attendance in places of public worship,
and their actual connection with any religious denomination.
to inquire what funds are now or may hereafter be available
for the purpose of the Established Church of Scotland, and
to report from time to time, in order that such remedies may
be applied to any existing evils, as Parliament may think fit,'
his Majesty was pleased, on the 20th day of July 1835, to issue
such Commission.

" 2. That the Commissioners so appointed made a first re-
port on the matters referred to them as applicable to those
parishes in the Presbytery of Edinburgh, where the want of
the means of religious instruction was alleged to exist, which
report was laid beore the House of Commons on the 7th of
February, 1837.

" 3. That it appears from this Report that the population
in the city of Edinburgh and its suburbs amounts to 162,292
of whom, after deducting persons belonging to religious de-
nominations other than the Established Church, there remain
91,021 ; and that the total number of sittings in the Churches
belonging to the Establishment amounts to 36,001. It further
appears from the Report, that the number of persons capable
of attending religious worship, who habitually absent them.
selves from such worship, ' cannot be less than from 40,000 to
50,000.'

" 4. That the said Report sets forth ' as the result of the
whole evidence, that from whatever cause it proceeds, whe-
ther connected with their extent or nature, the opportu-
nities of public religious worship, and the means of religious
instruction and pastoral superintendence at present existing
and in operation, are not adequate to the removal of the evils
complained of.'
" 5. That it is the opinion of this House, that the said re-
port should be taken into immediate consideration, with the
view of remedying the evils acknowledged to exist within the
districts to which it refers, by extending the means of reli-
gious instruction and pastoral superintendence furnished b)
the Established Church of Scotland, and rendering them avail-
able to all classes of the community."
Lord J. RUSSELL said the motion was brought forward
to obstruct the supplies, and it was the second time this course
had been followed by gentlemen opposite. He could not be-
lieve that the motive assigned by the Right Hon. Gentleman
for bringing the question forward now was the real motive.
He well recollected why another motion relative to the affairs
of Spain was brought forward on a late occasion.—(Hear,
hear.) It was because the British Legion had sustained a
reverse.—(Loud cheers.) But if, on the contrary, the
British troops had gained an advantage instead of having
suffered a defeat, the motion to which he referred would
not have been introduced.—(Hear, hear.) He could see
similar motives in the motion now before the House. The
fact was, the next meeting of the General Assembly of the
Church of Scotland was at hand, in which there was a sort of
theological battle to be fought, • and the present motion was
brought forward to give the Right Hun. Gentleman oppo-
site an opportunity of telling them that his Majesty's Mi-
nisters would not agree to it—( Hear, hear)—and of complain-
ing'of the manner in which the subject was treated in the
House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) Conceiving such to be
the motive of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Lord J. Rus-
sell) did not think fit to say that he considered it right or pro-
per that the general business of the country should-submit to
delay on account of his motion or its objects.—(Cheers.)
What were the facts with regard to the question? The
Right lion. Gentleman said that for six long years—and he
took especial care to remind the House that it was six long
years—his friends had been out of power, and that before the
present Government came into office there had elapsed a pe-
riod of no less than forty-five years, during which the evil of
which he complained had been gaining head.—( Hear, hear.)
What, then, was the party to which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man belonged during that period ? They were, during a great
portion of it, voting millions and hundreds of millions of the
public money to support expensive wars.—( Hear, hear.) In
a single year they had voted, he believed, one hundred and
forty millions for things which, though the Right Honourable
Gentleman now said they considered the objects of the present
motion of paramount importance, they evidently thought at
that time more necessary to be attended to than the interests
of the Church of Scotland.—Hear, hear.) But what had
been the course pursued during the two years to which
the Right Hon. Gentleman had more particularly referred ?
There had been a Commission of Inquiry issued, which had
gone through a great deal of heavy labour in investigating
subjects of a minute nature, and the Report of that Commis-
sion had not been made until very lately. Under these cir-
cumstances, he considered it would be better that the House
should await some further Report of the Commissioners, rather
than act upon what it at present was only imperfectly ac-
quainted with. The Right Hon. Gentleman gave no reason
why the sum of 10,0001 , which he stated was required, should
he granted s- and his resolutions did not fairly represent the
facts of the case, which were totally different to those the
Right Hon. Gentleman had stated. If he ( Lord .1. Russell)
were disposed to rely on a single fact only he could also read
a passage from the Report of the Commissioners, containing
a statement quite as fair as those comprised in the resolutions
of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He found that, according to
the calculations in the Report, taking all the Churchei and
Chapels together, that the amount of those who regularly
attended places of worship was 77,795, which would bring the
number of those requiring Church accommodation below the
figure named by the Right Hon.. Gentleman. The Report.
however, in its; present state, did not point out either the
special evil or a special remedy. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had quoted the opinion of Dr. Chalmers. He ( Lord J. Rus
sell) would do the same. That Rbv. Gentleman had been
asked the following question :
" Do you think that the evil of church destitution could be
remedied entirely, or in part, by the multiplication of mis-
sionaries to a great extent ?"

To this question Dr. Chalmers had replied,—
" This forms a very good initial operatiOn, and I would
much rather that it was never dispensed with. If we were to
run up a number of churches at this moment we ehould be
exposed. to the mortifying view of empty benches. The first
point should be a parochial missionary, to cultivate the dis-
trict : the process should begin there, but should not end
there. After he had done the work to a certain extent, and
filled his station, he should be translated into a higher status ;
and the circutnstance of his becoming an ordained Minister,
and of his being enabled to dispense ordinances, would give
him a ten-fold greater ascendancy over his district."
—( Hear, hear.) Now, in that opinion of Dr. Chalmers it
was evident that he considered the single fact of building
churches not sufficient. In that opinion he ( Lord John
Russell) concurred. He thought that in any parish where
there was a want of religious instruction, the employment
of missionaries would bo accompanied by great ad-
vantage ; and he also agreed with Dr. Chalmers in the
opinion that they ought afterwards to b© ordained.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) The Dissenters said that missionaries should be
employed, but that they ought to be composed both of mem-
bers of the Established Church and of Dissenters, and that
they ought to be supported by voluntary contributions.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) Now, that alone was enough to open
the whole question to consideration. With respect to the
supply of the spiritual wants, about which so much had been
said, he had been told that the evidence which had been taken
before the Commissioners bad done much towards causing a
great increase in the number of missionaries employed in the
Scottish parishes. There could be no doubt the object with
the view of effecting which the Commission had been appoint-
ed, was a desirable object ; but there was no question which
demanded greater care with regard to the manner in which it
should be carried into effect.--( Hear, hear.) If they were to
act on the present Report only, the result of their measure
might, after all, be but a fruitless work, and all their endea-
vours end in anything but an improvement of the religion of
the people. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said much with
respect to the spiritual wants of the people of Scotland,
and also of the landed proprietors bearing the hurthen of pro-
viding church room for the poorer classes. But be had not
been sufficiently precise and definite upon the points, whether
spiritual instruction or the interest of the landed proprietors
was the primary object. He (Lord John Russell) did not
consider that a subject like this ought to be considered through
the medium of delusive resolutions such as these.—( Hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that his Majesty's Govern-
ment ought at once to say whether or not they would vote a
grant of the public money for this object. He ( Lord John
Russell) could not at present say yes or no ; but he would say
what the Government were disposed to do when a fuller report
should have been furnished, and was not ready to agree to a
premature resolution for the mere purpose of avoiding any prc-
judics Hon. Gentlemen opposite might wish to excite against
the Government by pointing them out as the enemies of the
Church—( Hear)—er Os being unwilling to remedy any evils
which, be it remembered, had not grown up under them, but
which were the growth of a period of not less than thirty years,
and required that some considerable time should be expended
in well and maturely considering them.—(Cheers.)
Sir G. CLERK regretted to have heard a speech of that
nature from the Noble Lord, in reply to the observations of his
Right Hon. Friend. —( Hear.) The Noble Lord had called it
a party question ; but he ( Sir G. Clerk) assorted that there
never was a question brought forward in that House which par-
took less of a party nature than the present.—( Cheers.) There
had been numerous meetings held upon the subject, and the
Whigs of Scotland had shown the greatest possible anxiety to