The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-22 00:00:00

CANADA.

. Lord ELLENBOROUGH having put a question
to the Noble Viscount opposite a short time since which
he was not able to answer, in consequence of the ab-
sence of the Noble Secretary for the Colonies, and now
seeing the Noble Marquis who had accepted the Seals
of that office, in his place, he begged to know if there
was any despatch from Sir J. Colborne stating the names
of the persons whom he had appointed to be of his Spe-
cial Council, and if there would be any occasion to pro.
duce that despatch.
The Marquis of NORM ANBY said there was a
despatch giving the named of the Special Council whom
he had thought fit to appoint, and as he believed there
was scarcely any other thing in that dispatch, there
could be no objection to its being laid on the table.

Lord WYNFORD presented a petition against any
alteration in the Corn-laws.
Lord RADNOR presented a petition praying that
their Lordships would be pleased to hear evi-
dence at the bar in respect of the Corn-laws.
The Noble Lord said he was requested to give
notice by a Noble Friend of his, who was pre-
vented from attending in his place in consequence
of the sudden death of a near relative, that, on
Thursday, the 14th March, he should propose a reso-
lution on the subject of the Corn-laws. The exact
terms of that resolution he had not yet deckled upon, but
they probably would be to this effect—That the present
laws fail produce the steadiness of price which was
essential to the best interests of the country. The
Noble Lord also moved for returns of an account
of the average import of wheat for each year from Oc-
tober, 1828, to October, 1838, and also the average
prices of wheat during that period.
MEXICO.
Lord STR AN G FORD gave notice that be should
on Monday, as we understood, call the attention of the
Noble Earl opposite to the state of the relation that
now existed between France and certain States of
'South America. He would now take the liberty of
asking the Noble Earl, who had replied in a very
satisfactory mariner to a question put by his Noble
Friend the other evening, whether, at the time the trans-
action took place to which the Noble Lord's answer
referred, there was a single ship of war in the Gulf of
Mexico ?
Lord MINTO was not able to answer the question
so satisfactorily as he could have wished. He believed
there was one, if not more, British ships of war at Vera
Cruz. There had been a large frigate there, which left
the station about that time. He had seen letters from
officers so immediately afterwards as to lead him :,to
believe there must have been one, if not more, ships
there at that time.

Lord STR AN G FORD made an observation or two
in a very inaudible tone.
Lord MINTO—As soon as it was known that an ex-
pedition was contemplated orders were sent to the Com-
mander-in-Chief in the West Indies. to make arrange-
ments for the protection of the British trade. We had no
concern with any other. Our power was merely for our own
subjects and our own trade ; and as soon as it was known
that there was any intention of proceeding against the
Mexican country, directions were sent out to make every
possible arrangement for the protection of the British
of that station, and the answer in return was, that
measures to that Effect had been taken. As it ap-
peared obvious that there were events likely to lead to
war between France and Mexico, a considerable ad-
dition to the force was required, and the Commander had
taken what he conceived to be sufficient means of pro-
tection.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE said something which it
was impossible to hear in the ga:lery with accuracy, in
reply to which
Lord MINTO said it was true that a man had been
taken from on board (as we understood) a corvette.
He was cautioned not to take the men, but the officer
had certainly carried him away, saying he did so on
his own responsibility. The French Admiral at once
perceiving the impropriety of the proceeding,
tendered to the Commodore what he considered a most ,
handsome and ample apology ; and he (Lord Minto)
believed that if the Commodore had thought the man
had been sufficiently under his protection to render it
necessary for him to desire that he should be released,
he bad not the slightest doubt that he would have been
released ; and be had the pleasure of saying the
greatest harmony prevailed among the officers of the
two countries on the station. They bad the opportu-
nities of rendering each other service, and in every in-
stance they had eagerly availed themselves of those
opportunities.
Lord LYNDHURST wished to know if the Noble
Earl had any objection to lay on the table Commo-
dore Douglas's d►spatch, and also the letter which had
been received from Mr. Parkingham ?
Lord MINTO said that be did not exactly know
what was in those papers, but ho would look at them,
and lie did not believe there would any objection.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH begged to say that no
French officer could have a right to board a British
merchantman, and take a man from on board of her in
any part of the world.
The Earl of MINTO said he did not at all intend
to excuse this trar.saction ; on the contrary, he
had stated that it was most improper, and that he
had made a representation on the subject to the
French Government through the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs, but that before that representation the French
Admiral had offered the reparation which, under the
circumstances, every honourable-minded man would have

given.
Lord LYNDHURST asked whether Admiral
Baudin had not ascribed the occurrence to the inexpe-
rience of the person commanding the ship, (as we under-
stood the Noble and Learned Lord,) and whether there
were not at the time signals going from the French
Admiral's vessel ?
The Earl of MI N TO said that might be possible, but
he could not positively say—he would inqu're ; to say
the truth, the affair having occurred so suddenly he was
not aware it would have been so minutely inquired into.

Lord LYNDHURST—I really am surprised that I
the Noble Earl should not have expected that minute
inquiry would be made into the matter. I hope the'
Noble Earl will lay all the papers on the subject before
the House.
Lord BROUGHAM—The Noble earl at the head
of the Admiralty, must have misunderstood the remarks
of my Noble Friend opposite (Lord Ellenborough).
My Noble Friend never suspected that any one,
much less the First Lord of the Admiralty, would vin-
dicate or extenuate such a procceeding as this—for
which, however, a satisfactory apology appears to have
been made. But what my Noble Friend said, and what
I thought very material—was that lie felt surprised
that the First Lord of the Admiralty should get up in
his place and say when a pilot has been taken out
of a British Vessel—" if Commodore Douglas had
understood the pilot to be under the protection of the
British flag, no doubt he would have interfered." MY
Noble Friend most naturally and properly expressed his
surprise at this new doctrine in the law of nations—
this new provision in our naval discipline, that her MI- •
jesty's naval officers can only consider those under their
protection who are actually on board the Queen's vessels,
whereas any man on board an English merchantman is
as much under the protection of the Queen's flag as if
he were actually on board the Queen's ship.—( Hear,
hear.) The gravamen of the charge is not that a man
has been taken, but that he has been taken from on
board an English ship, and I hope it will never be un-
derstood that there was any difference whether a man
was taken from a merchantman or a Queen's ship,
if` be an English vessel.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the moment
it was ascertained that the French had arrived in
Mexico, Commodore Douglas was sent out with
specific instructions to protect the commercial trade
of England ; and no doubt Commodore Douglas
with such instructions would have conceived himself
bound to protect a person on board an English vessel
whether a merchantman or a Queen's ship. It
appeared, however, to be suspected that Commodore
Douglas had not fulfilled his duty ; but he (the Marquis
of Lansalowne) believed it would be found that the gal-
lant Commodore had perfectly discharged his duty. At
all events the Commodore had expresied himself per-
fectly satisfied with the reparation of the French Admi-
ral, and it must be gratifying to find that that reparation
was made before the representation to the French Go-
vernment.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH said he threw no dis-
credit on the Commodore.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But he had expressed his astonishment at what
he understood to have fallen from the first
Lord of the Admiralty as to the distinction between the
protection to be afforded to persons on board merchant-
men and on board Queen's ships—a distinction which he
(Lord E.) knew to be altogether groundless and preg-
nant with the greatest peril to the commercial interests
of the c.untry.
Lord BROUGHAM said the whole misunderstand-
ing•had arisen from the word " if," which had been said
to be a peacemaker, but on the present occasion had
certainly produced a contrary effect.—(A laugh.) The
mistake arose from the First Lord of the Admiralty
stating " if Commodore Douglas had understood the
pilot to be under the protection of the British flag,"
&c., whereupon the Noble Lord opposite (Ellen-
borough) had understood the Noble Earl to have
said that there was no protection on board an English
merchantman.

The Earl of MI NTO said no doubt the Commodore
must have understood the piot to be under his protec-
tion ; and the only thing to be doubted was whether the
pilot had required the Commodore's protection, and
whether it was desirable that the Commodore should
have interfered for his protection ; had this been the
case, there could have been no question that the appli-
cation would have been attended to.
CORN-LAWS.

The NOBLE EARL then presented petitions from
Kinross, Hoy, and Hawick, against the Corn-laws.
The Marquis of BUTE presented petitions from the
Isle of Mull, the Isle of Bute, the Presbytery of Lorn,
the town of Arbroath, and other places, in favour of
the present system of Corn-laws ; also a petition, of
a very different character, from the Town-Council of
the borough of Ayr, praying fora revision of the present
system of Corn-laws.
MURDER OF LORD NORBURY.

The Earl of RODEN, seeing a Noble Marquis
(Normanby) in his place, and being anxious not to
prefer a charge without due notice, begged to state that
it was his intention to-morrow to put a question to th•
Noble Marquis respecting the murder of the late Lord
Norbury.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, by command of
her Majesty, laid on the table the .sth Report of the
Commissioners of National Education in Ireland.

THE sciN, LoNDUN, FRIDAY,—EVENING +'DI

they had hitherto pursued. The Speech on this
occasion was little more than a lamentation, and expressed
no more on the subject than if it had been one of the la-
mentations of Jeremiah. He wo.uld ask the Noble Lord
whether, after this waste of treasure and of men for the
last five years, that Government were determined to
continue this assistance to such an extravagant extent
as they had hitherto done. He thought their Lordships
were entitled to a distinct explanation from her Majes-
ty's Ministers as to whether they intended to pursue
this war on the same footing as they had hitherto
pursued it, or whether they were disposed to take
a wiser and a better course. If the txpense was
to go on, OH the present extravagant scale,
would the country be satisfied ?—(Hear.) In this
unhappy state of affairs, the claims of the Legion still
remained unsatisfied. Did the Noble Viscount believe
that the Spanish Government would ever carry its pro-
noses Into execution ? Did he really believe that the
c!ai,us of the Legion would ever be settled ? A Noble
Duke had stated that this war was nothing but a stock-
jobbing war. He (the Noble Marquis) wished to say a
few words on this subject : a negociation was actually
going on a this moment in the City for a loan for the
Queen of Spain under false pretences.—( Hear,
hear.) Under these circumstances he should like to
know from the Noble Viscount whether he was
a party either directly or indirectly to this negociation.
It was stated that this loan was to be raised under the
moral sanction of her Majesty's Government. What
this sanction might be he did not profess to understand,
but from the recent exposures in the public Journals re-
lating to transactions which had taken place inDowning-
street, he should be inclined to place but little trust in
any such moral sanctions. The publication of a cot-
respondence of the Secretary of State of the Foreign
Department had created such a sensation that it be-
hoved their Lordships to make a demand for explanation
on that subject. He would not follow this question fur-
ther in this place, as it would be more conveniently
made the subject of discussion elsewhere. [The Noble
Marquis spoke throughout in a low tone of voice, and so
frequently turned his back to the Gallery, that we had
considerable difficulty in catching what fell from him.)
No circumstance had created more noise at home or
abroad for a considerable period, and in addition to that
it now appeared that her Majesty's Government was
about to give their moral sanction to the loan which
was now being negociated. He was not prepared to
go farther at present, having already frequently tres-
passed upon their time. With respect to the foreign
policy, he could not help observing that he felt great
satisfaction at having seen the affairs of Belgium and
Holland brought to a happy settlement. It would ap-
pear as if her Majesty's Government had at length made
use of their "cheval de battaile" of the Quadruple Alliance
in the West, as the Quadruple Alliance in the North,
had been formerly resorted to. He hoped the event
was conclusive, and that it was not waiting other
changes, as was the case in the Spanish question. He
hoped, however, her Majesty's Government would not
suppose that that great country would continue hanging
on the decisions of another country. The people of
England required and demanded from the Noble Vis-
count some explanation upon that matter. Did the
Noble Viscount mean to feed the war in Spain, as he
had hitherto done, with the treasure and men and money
of this country ? That was the main object of the ques-
tion lie had to put. In conclusion, his object certainly
was to move for Returns which would show the enor-
mous loss and sacrifice of men and treasure which had
been made and which had ended in disgrace and discom-
fiture. He should now move for a return of all the
supplies forwarded in the service of the Queen of Spain
from July 1838 to the latest period ; including any ar-
ticles furnished to the Chief Mujagorri, in money,
arms, cannons, and stores. He would also move
for a Return of the extra charges of the Navy,
caused by the continued blockade, and the Marines on
shore, and the expense of the Commissioners of the
Queen of Spain. Also for a copy or extracts of the
correspondence that had taken place between the Go-
vernment l
betweenB3 8 ,
Lord relative
.to H tahye
and pro gcr
Colonel
lsos n oe
lf
the
war, a sni
dn c ealJsoul
\\'ylde and the Foreign Office, relative to the aid
afforded by the British Government. The greater
part of the correspondence related to the outrages
that had taken place in carrying on the war. He
must do her Majesty's Government the justice to say
that in that correspondence they had admitted they
had made mistakes. He thought that the concluding
parts of that correspondence called upon the Govern.
ment to adopt more decisive measures. He had only
moved for these papers for the purpose of more fully
elucidating the subject.
Lord MELBOURNE said, that if he rightly under-
stood what fell from the Noble Lord on Wednesday
last, when his gave his notice, it was that he
should ask certain questions respecting Spain ; but he
gave no notice that he should move for certain returns.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that he
distinctly stated to the Noble Viscount that he should
move for a return of the supplies and correspondence.

Lord MELBOURNE then said that he had entirely
misunderstood the Noble Lord. He understood that
he was going to ask questions, but not to move for re-
turns, and it would certainly he better that the
Noble Lord should beforehand state what he in-
tended to move for, in order that it might be consi-
dered whether it would he prudent and wise
to accede to his motion. The Noble Lord had
asked what course her Majesty's Government meant to
pursue in respect to Spain. He had no hesitation in
stating distinctly that the intention was to observe the
Quadruple Alliance, and peraite the same system which
had been adopted, and Observe those engagements
that had' been entered into.—(Hear, hear.) It was
impossible to deny that that system had not
been attended with the speedy effect which it was
hoped would have been produced ; but he would deny
that it had been as the Noble Lord had described it,
from beginning to end, nothing but a failure and dis-
grace. He had asked whether Government intended
to feed that war as they had been doing, and whether
they intended to send supplies to the extent they had
supplied them. With respect to that they would act.
according to their discretion, according to circum-
stances, and according to that which occasions
and opportunities required ; but unquestionably
they would act on the system they bad adopted of
maintaining their engagements, and following up their
stipulations. The Noble Lord had said that he should
have thought they were about to abandon the system
they had hitherto pursued, unless he had heard in the
course of last Session that they had sent certain sup-
plies, and given certain encouragement to a chief named
Muniagorri,who had made a movement in those provinces.
It was to be observed that that was a movement for the
purpose of establishing a pacification between the Go-
vernment of Spain and those provinces, by acknowledg-
ing, on the one hand, the Queen's Government, and of
securing on the other the rights and privileges of those
provinces. He (Lord M.) had no hesitation in saying,
that when Government saw a spirit of that kind de•
monstrating itself, and a probability of terminating
those hostilities by that attempt in that country, un-
questionably the Government thought it was policy,
through their agents, to communicate to the leaders of
that movement their sympathy and approbation of
such movement, and to do every thing in their power
to bring about a final peace between the Queen's Go-
vernment and those provinces. Communications had
taken place, therefore, to that effect between the agents
of her Majesty's Government and that leader, and some
small amount of supplies had been placed at the disposal of
Lord Hay at his discretion, to afford to that leader or not.
How far they had been given, he (Lord W.) was un-
able to say, but to any return on that subject there
could be no objection. The Noble Lord had then al-
luded to a subject which had been before discussed in
their Lordship's House, namely, the arrears due to the
Legion. The Noble Lord knew very well how that
subject stood. He knew that there was a Commission
sitting in London on the subject at present, and that
that Commission had proceeded to a considerable ex-
tant io ascertaining what the claims were on behalf of the
Legion ; and he asked him (Lord M.) whether in his
conscience he believed the Spanish Government would
make good those claims or not. He (Lord M.) could
only speak to facts, and therefore he could only speak
to what had taken place and what was doing, but as to
what would take place he could not pretend to say a
word. Evet-y one knew the difficulties under which
the Spanish Government laboured with respect to its
finances, but he believed there was in the present Go-
vernment of Spain a sincere desire to fulfil the engage-
ments into whichit had entered. The Noble Lord
had also mentioned the subject of the Loan, which he
saiunderde the moral was
ramisoingl in this country, and as he likewise stated
sanction of her Majesty's Government.
He (Lord M,) begged distinctly to say that her Ma-
jesty's GOvernment was in no respect whatever to be
considered not only as having sanctioned, but as hay-
ing done anything or said anything that could amount
to an encouragement to that loan, so as to induce per-
sons to enter into it or to give those who might
enter into that speculation the slightest hold on the re-
sponsibility of Government. The Noble Lord had then
mentioned some other correspondence, and asked whe-
ther that correspondence was correct or authentic.
Ile (Lord M.) had not seen it, and therefore could not
say
Y he had better not
have alluded to it at all. With respect to the
motion, he did not exactly know how its wording stood,
but he appreheo
o. and he
nded there would be nu
thoughti thatimp imperfectly
nly, advertedn
i to t s e Noble Lord had
great objection
to the production of what it called for. As to the
documents which had been written with a view to miti-
gate the atrocities and character of the war, not only
Government were not unwilling, but they
were most
desirous to lay all these documents on the table. They
should consider it a great reproach on themselves, if
they bad not done every thing in their power, both by
communication with the Spanish Leaders, and with the
Carlist Leaders, and with every other Governor of Eu-
iropelive. They
knew very well that
it was impossible, and against human nature, that such
a system as had been carried on could he exercised by
times to puitn a
wiiic stopbto we
the a system which was a disgrace to
one and not retaliated by the other. Opposing
force to force, and the shedding of blood to the
shedding of blood, must lead to every possible horror ;
but it was but justice to the Queen's Officers and

lON, FEBRUARY 22, 1

I Government to say that he believed those who began
it were responsible for the whole ; and he believed it
was upon Don Carlos and his officers the whole
responsibility rested. He did not say that in the
course of such horrors and violence being perpetrated
by the one side, horrors and violence would not be
committed by the other, but the commencement of the
warfare rested with Don Carlos, and the Queen's Go-
vernment were not justly chargeable with its conse-
quences. But however that might be, there would not
only be no objection to the correspondence moved for
by the Noble Lord between her Majesty's Government
and the Spanish Government,but also thecommunications
which they had had with Foreign Powers on this sub-
ject. There could be but one opinion among the Al-
lies—(Hear, bear)—among all nations on this ques-
tion ; and they bad only heard utter reprobation of the
proceedings, and an anxiety to terminate them ; and
although naturally any great influence «ith Don Carlos
was disclaimed by those to whom they had applied, yet
there had been the utmost readiness on all hands pro-
fessed to exert any influence they had with a view to put
an end to such practices so outrageous to humanity. It
would, perhaps, be better that the Noble Lord's motion
should stand till to-morrow, that it might be considered.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, if his Noble
Friend could postpone his !notion till to morrow, be
would suggest to the Noble Viscount that he should
also lay on the table the despatches which had been
written in 1834 and 1835, on the same subject, and
which had never yet been laid on the table, because he
(the Noble Duke) thought they would prove that if the
course of policy adopted then bad been adhered to, the
present state of things would not now have existed.
Lord MELBOURNE assented to that production.
Lord RIPON said, that if this encouragement had
been given to this leader without the concurrenceof the
Queen of Spain, be thought that was a course calculated
to lead those people into a most dangerous situation.
He wished to know, therefore, whether this intervention
with Muniagorri was with the consent of the Queen of
Spain or not ?
Lord MELBOURNE said that what was done was
understood and known by the Queen's Government.
Lord ABERDEEN understood the efforts had
been repudiated by the Queen's Commaeder, and with
whom, in a certain sense, Muniagorri was acting in hos-
tility. This was in fact a third party which had been
set up, quite independent of the Queen and of Don
Carlos—a party who had endeavoured to bring the war
to a conclusion, upon a different footing to that pro-
posed by either of the other two parties. This was really,
therefore, a most preposterous assumption on our part,
to set up a party independent of the other parties to
carry on a war. This could not be said at least to be in
conformity with the Quadruple Treaty. It was a party
set up who, if he failed, this country was bound to sup-
port, and therefore calculated to lead people to engage
in an undertaking which might bring upon them very
heavy responsibilities, hereafter. It was quite gratui-
tous on our part, and we had horrors enough in that
contest, without bringing a new barbarian into the field,
for whose atrocities by our assistance we were rendering
ourselves responsible.
The Duke of WELLINGTON objected to the
word blockade in his Noble Friend's motion. There
could be no such thing as blockade there. The squa-
dron was engaged in operations in connection with the
Chief Muniagorri, therefore he hoped the Noble Mar-
quis would leave that word out.
Lord MELBOURNE said, that though the- part
taken by Muniagorri was that of a third party, and al-
though he proposed to settle the affairs of Spain upon
grounds different to those assumed by either the Queen
or Don Carlos, yet, when the questism was whether
they were right in encouraging that effort, it ap-
peared there was a very considerable feeling, by
both parties to terminate the war on those principles,
and he would ask, if there was a probability presented
of that kind, they were not right in taking the chance
of producing it ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was extremely
surprised at what had fallen from the Noble Viscount
opposite. It would appear that if there was a now
standard raised for a new war, the Noble Viscount
would have no objection to embark in it ; and that
if any money was necessary to be expended for
these Quixotic proceedings—for Muniagorri's was
nothing else—the Noble Viscount would have no
objection to it. It was just one of those circumstances
which he thought it necessary to call the attention of
the House and the public to. With respect to any ar-
rangement for the payment of the Legion, he could
only say that he had no such confidence in the Spanish
Government as to induce him to believe that the Le-
gion would ever be paid at all, any more than that this
country would ever receive one farthing back of the.
600,0001. which had been expended by us. He would
withdraw his motion to-night, for the purpose of making
it to-morrow, understanding that no discussion would
then take place upon it ; and in the interim he should
amend it, so as to include the despatches of 1834 and
1835, and to leave out the word blockade. He could
only say that he had no intention of being uncourteous
to the Noble Viscount by urging on his motion hastily.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that every
step taken by that Chief had been communicated, but no
remonstrance nor even an expression had been made
by the Government against the interest alluded to.
Here the conversation dropped. •
MUNICIPAL COURTS' BILL.

Lord DEN NI A N moved the second reading of this
Bill, which, as has been already stated, has for its object
the assimilation of the practice of those Courts in uni-
formity and expedition to the inferior Courts, and that
they should not hold their sittings fewer than four times
a year.

The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.

Their Lordships then adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS. FRI". 21.

The SPEAKER took the chair shortly beforo Pour
o'Clock.

Mr. MONTAGUE presented the annual returnsfrom
the Court of Bankruptcy.
Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition from the
Westminster Improvement Company, for leave to bring
in a Bill to carry their objects into effect.
Mr. HOPE presented a petition from the Birming-
ham and Gloucester Railway Company, for leave to
bring in a Bill to extend their line.
Mr. AGLIONBY brought up a report from the
Committee on Private Bills, finding that the-Standing
Orders had been complied with in the case of the Lon-
don and Birmingham Railway Bill, and the Rugby and
Warwick Road Bill.— Leave was then given to bring
in the Bills.