The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-23 00:00:00

I There was( a little circumstance averted to by his
Noble itriend behind him upon which he differed with
him, and which was also alluded to by the Noble Lord op-
posite—be meant the custom of allowing seamen to serve
while they held pensions. The object of their own custom
was to have as many available men as possible ; and it was
very obvious that there was no more expense in paying a
man on-board a Queen's ship than in paying the men on
board any other ship. There was then no want of ~ble. iea-
men ; and, indeed, by that system, instead of one, they had
two men, at, no additional expense. There was then tio
difficulty in basing the best of men for active service, and
keeping a sufficient number of others iii reserve. Inre-
ference to the coast blockade, that was not kept up on
' the footing on which it had been, and he hoped measures
would be taken to restore that important source of supply
for the Navy upon any emergency. From that source, in
former days, they were enabled at any time to procure a
respectable support. Then as to the Dockyards, and the
mode in which the work there was carried on, a great
many years ago the custom in the Dockyards was to
employ men at day wages, but subsequently it was the con-
stant and invariable endeavour, both at the Admiralty and
Navy Boards, to keep up a system of pay ment by the piece
for every kind of work that could be done. It was the ob-
ject of the Surveyors to calculate the work upon that prin-
ciple with the greatest minuteness. But it was evident
that the consequence was that a great deal more work was
done in one day under that system than was done by the
same number of men who were employed at day wages.
The best proof of this was, that in all private ship-build-
ing yards the ship-masters invariably employed their men
at job prices. That system, however, in the Dockyard,
was charged about seven or eight eight years ago, which
he believed to be a most unfortunate change, and unless it
were restored again to the job system there never would
be that satisfaction afforded which was before experienced.
It was impossible for that Officer, with all his great talent
and ingenuity, to superintend the Dockyard effectually,
as he had not been brought up to that business. The con-
sequence was that workmen were not employed the same
number of hours as before. The practice now was to em-
ploy them so many days in the week, because there were
more shipwrights than they-had employment for. Ile was
very unwilling that any of those shipwrights should be dis.
missed. He thought that they should be let die off, and
t' give them employment five days in the week. He had
employed some of them as carpenters and as labourers, and
he had found them willing to submit to every privation. It
should he remembered that you could not get shipwrights
as easily as you could common carpenters and joiners, there-
fore he was desirous to keep up the cumber in order that
there should be a sufficient number of shipwrights for the
went of the State, whatever emergency might arise.
Earl MINTO said that he had a large disposcable
force at home. There were six sail of the line in the whole
squadron, two of which were at Lisbon, and two others
were temporarily absent.
Earl HA RD WICKE was very glad to hear the ex-
planation that had just been given. He did not think it
was necessary to keep up a great number of ships and
their complements because Russia had 37 sail of the line.
The Noble Earl then referred to his opinions respecting
the reduction of the guard ships in in 1826. He would
not support a system of false economy. His Lordship
then went iota the state of our foreign relations;
and afterwards alluded to the state of the dock.

yards in 182 ti, stating that our furce then was 20
sail of the line, and 18 brigs. It was his opinion that
when ships were put into commission they ought to be fitted
out for sea as soon as possible. The Noble Earl stated
that he had 13 demonstration ships perfectly ready for sea,
and in a perfect state of equipment. It was also known
that in the pamphlet of Sir John Barrow the same state-
ment was repeated, that there were 13 demonstration ships
cady for sea, and 30 sail of the line..
Earl M I NTO—I did not say so.
Earl HARDWICK E—l don't refer to the Noble Earl.
Earl MINTO —I beg the Noble Lord's pardon—l

thought he was quoting me.
Earl HARD W 1 CKE was quoting a great authority. He
was quoting from the pamphlet of a gentleman who bad
the means of looking into and referring to every document
in their office, and the following was that gentleman's
statement—" Whenever the necessity should actually
arise, and that Parliament should vote 50,000 men, the
Admiralty would have no difficulty in adding 30 sail of the
line to the 21 already in commission, for which additional
30 sail the masts, sails, and yards, and every necessary
article of gear, were in complete readiness. The Noble
Earl had corroborated that statement. Now it appeared
that in Portsmouth, on Jan. 28 last, not a very long time ago,
they had fJur demonstration ships, as they were called,
and supposed to be. There had been five, one of which,
the Ganges, had been sent abroad, and he would take the
Ganges as an instance of the readiness of these ships. The
Ganges was brought forward and examined, it being su -
posed that she was ready in every particular. It was
found that she wanted caulking—that was nothing. Next
it was found necessary to take her into dock to clean
her bottom, and then it was found that she wanted to be
new coppered—such was the state of one of these ships.
He would then take the next ship, the Revenge. She
had no foremast. On the 28th January the foremast was
not hooped, but the contractors were making the hoops,
and they would be ready in a few days. It was clear
from this that the mainmast was not finished. The other
ships were stated to be ready ; for aught he knew that might
be the case, but from the example of the Ganges he much
distrusted their capability of going to sea. At Plymouth
they had five demonstration ships—the Caledonia, the Im-
pregnable, the Agincourt, the Belleisle, and the Imprac-
ticable—but would it be believed that there was not a
single suit of sails for a line of battle ship in that port ?
Why were they not completed ? It might be said what
was wanting?—there was not a single foretopsail, main-
topsail, and only one mizentopsail—the most important
sails, and without which a vessel could not go to sea. They
had foretopgallant sails, studding sails, and all the other
, sails, but these important ones wore vaulting; Ele.believed
they were working very hard to get them up, and at Ply-
mouth they had sixteen new sets of rigging. He would
go again to Portsmouth, and with respect to spars the
deficiency was equally obvious, and even those demonstra-
tion ships had not a topsail-yard--they had not a single
spar over the lower mast—they bad neither topsail-yards
nor topgallant sail yards. He would pass from the demon-
stration ships, which were ready for sea, to the 30 sail of
the line which were stated to be perfectly ready—he
believed there were 20 sail of the line preparing, and be
bad no doubt the Noble Lord would have them ready soon
—but at Portsmouth there were in store sails for a first-
rate complete, and for a third-rate complete only. There
were in store rigging for two first-rates, for two second-rates,
one third-rate, and two frigates; but there was neither
gun gear fitting, nor any thing to mount cannon, except
the carriages and guns at the ordnance. There was not a suit
of sails for a second-rate, beyond the demonstration ships at
Portsmouth—there was not a single suit of sails
fur a frigate in Portsmouth Dockyard—not one.
There was neither a single suite of sails for a sloop
or a brig—there were two suits for a first-rate (including
the Brittania), ot:e suite for a third rate, and one making
for the Dublin. Where then were the thirty sail-of-the
line that was stated to be ready ? He was perfectly satis-
fied that if they could fit out seven sail-of-the-line it was
the utmost. At Plymouth there was not a complete suit
of sails in store for a sloop or a brig, except the Acorn
in commission. He was so puzzled with his notes that he
oas not inclined to trouble their Lordships much further .

He had shown quite enough, however, of the system--of
demonstration equipment. On the 31st of January, at
Plymouth, and the 28th of January at Portsmouth, such
was the state of these demonstration vessels.—( Hear. )
It was quite clear that the establishment had been very
much let down, and the exertions that bad taken place had
been called forth by the notice which was taken on the
subject out of doors. Ile hoped he had satisfied their
Lordships that their Naval force was not so disposed as to
be fit fur the defence of the country ; that those demon-
stration ships were only demonstrative of weakness ; and
that the thirty-one sail-of. the-line which were stated to
Le ready equipped would be ready two or three months
hence.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of RIPON had no pretensions to address
their Lordships on such a subject, but he would refer tp
the alteration which had been made during the last few
years for protecting the revenue by what was called the
Coast Guard service. The effect of that alteration was to
remove from the immediate controul of the Admiralty a
body of seamen who might ho used for very important
purposes ; and it was due to the Noble Lord and his Col-
leagues to state the ground upon which the alteration had
taken place. It had been said by persons competent to
form a judgment on the matter, that in affording security
against the illicit introduction of foreign goods it did not
work so satisfactorily as had been antioipated ; and
although it was true that a number of men and officers
might be rendered available upon any emergency, the
suddenly abstracting that protection from the coast would
occasion great mischief. It was accordingly suggested
that it would be more economical to revert to what was
called the Coast Guard system; and in that view it was
thought of great importance to offer to the naval service
advantages which they did cot before possess, and it was said
that the consequence would be, that a groat many volun-
teers would be induced to enter the Navy. Their Lord-
ships would recollect at that time the subject of impress-
ment had excited a good deal of attention, although that
Government (and he hoped there never would be a Go-
vernment which would differ with them on that point) had
recognised the right and power of impressment, being con-
vinced, that if it was once abandoned, the downfall of the
British Navy would be inevitable—( Hear, bear)--yet
policy and prudence justified them by every means to in-
duce volunteers to enter the Navy. The plan therefore
proposed was this—that the whole of the persons appointed
to the coast guard, instead of the former system of
appointment under the Treasury or Board of Customs,
should biz, under the Admiralty ; and that every person so
employed, whether officer or seaman, should be a naval man.
It was arranged that every captain when he went to sea should be
called upon •so note ilia oondue of every individual in his
and out of there, after three years' se. vice, who were most re-
tri,akahle for steadiness and trustworthiness the coast guard
should be composed. The si:oat ion, both as regarded ..ttleets
and men, was very desirable. They had many comforts and
convenience% eonste.ted likewise, he would admit, v;ith occa-
sionally very arduous duties, and not aiwr::ys free from the
casualty of loss of life, but still them, were many inducements
to make the situation bas. It was believed list offering
that irulucemcnt to young that
51,e after a limited servi c wouldini
duce thee\ the mare reauily to enter. It was well known ha
the temptation:: held out in the merchant service were very
grealarge o;. A portio of the American Commercial Marine was,
composed of British seamen—possibly tne same thing had taken
placv to a certain extent in other countries, but still it was
notorious that in their merchant service, and in that of America,
very great inducements were offered to gallant young fellows
in the public service of the Crown. The plan had, therefore,
been founded on very sound principles. How far it might have
induced persons to enlist he was not prepared to say. The
same principle had been urged over and over again as regarded
the artily, with the view of inducing a superior class of men to
enlist, rather than, sweeping the streets and highways. These
Were the grounds which had induced Sir James Graham to
hrhig forward the proposition. Ile believed there were about
i Loco persons employed in that service who of eattrae were
just as available upon any emergency as. under the former
system. It had been said that the system was
calculated to abstract sow of the best men from
the service‘ bqt all, the total number in any one
peat I"st‘ gPt sAvkxik'd t? 0(), and that could by no means
icQ considered a large number. One great benefit, at all
events would be derived from this debate—that it 1,,,ad Leen ad-