The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-05 00:00:00

Mr. SHAW (who had a notice to omit the 22d clause)
rose to object to the dause, and the discussion had proceeded
for some minutes, when

Mr. O'CONNELL askedwhatclause they were on.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bernal) replied the 23d.—(A
laugh, and " No, no," from Mr. Shaw.)
It was eventually agreed that the Committee should re-
consider clause 22 (qualifying all rated inhabitants of
boroughs after three years).
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON objected to the clause, and
would divide against it.
After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that in the English Municipal
Act the franchise was given to rated inhabitants who had
been resident in the borough for three years, because per-
sons who had resided that period of time, and had been
rated, were considered to belong to that respectable class
which were fairly entitled to the franchise, and he appre-
hended that the same reasoning was equally applicable to
Ireland.

Sir E. KNATCLIBULL wished to know whether the
right of voting was dependant on the rating or on the va-
luation.

Mr. °TONNE LL—Manifestly on the rating, because
the rates must all be paid up before the voter can exercise
his franchise under the 22d clause.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it depended clearly on
the rating, and not on the valuation.
After a few words from Sir E. KNATCHBULL and Mr.
GIN:LW:RN, the Committee divided, when there appeared_
For the clause 96
Against it . 5O
. _

Majority in favour of the clause
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 23 and 24 were then agreed to.
Clause 23, after a few observations from Mr. Shaw, Mr.
Smith O'Brien, and Mr. Darby, was postponed.
Clauses 26 and 27, after a short conversation, were
agreed to.
Clause 29 was agreed to without any amendment.
Clause 30 was struck out.
On the 31st clause being put,
Mr. SHAW objected to it, because it abrogated the
present law with respect to the payment of arrears of
taxes.

Mr. PIGOT and Mr. O'CONNELL defended the
clause.
After a short conversation, the clause was agreed to.
Clause 32 was postponed.

On clause 33 being, proposed,
Mr. SHAW considered the payment of the pipe water
tax ought to be considered as necessary for the qualification
—it was a municipal tax.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it might as well
be contended that the Chelsea water rate or the New River
rate was a municipal tax. The rate must be considered in
the nature of a payment for goods sold and delivered.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said the tax was compulsory,
and parties would have to pay it whether they took the
water or not.

Mr. O'CONNELL observed that the pipe water rate in
Cork was not a municipal tax, although it was imposed by
Act of Parliament.
After a few words from :Mr. GOULBURN and Lord Mok-
FETH, the clause was ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 34 was postponed.
Clauses 35 up to 42 were agreed to without observation.
On clause 43 being read,
Mr. BLARE proposed after the word " burgess" to
introduce " or freemen."
Lord MORP E TH had so often advocated the prin-
ciple of assimilatinn.' the Municipal Institutions in Ireland
to those in England, that he did not oppose the amendment.
The clause, as amended, was then ordered to stand part
of the Bill.
Clauses 44 up to 69 were agreed to without any ob-
servation.

On clause 70 being read,
Sir R. FE RGUSSON objected to the Recorder being
appointed assessor to the returning officer, and moved the
omission of that portion of the clause.
After a short discussion the amendment was agreed to,
and the clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill.

On clause 70 being proposed,
Mr. SHAW proposed that the Roman Catholic oath
should not be dispensed with.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN trusted that the House would not
accede to the amendment. This oath had done more to
bring oaths into discredit than any other thing that could
be imagined.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that in order to make this Bill
work well there ought to be no distinction made between
Catholics and Protestants. It should be entirely disembar-
rassed from sectarianism. If this proposition should
be agreed to, it would be putting a firebrand into the cor-
porations. The policy of legislation was to have as few
oaths as possible, and he wished this principle were further
carried out.—( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir D. Roche, Lord Morpeth,
Mr. Shiel, and Mr. Redington, the House divided, when
the numbers were—

Ayes
Noes
Majority against the amendment —4s
For a considerable time the Committee was a scene of
universal conversation and consultation, only now and then
interrupted by Mr. Bernal's stentorian call f r " Order,"
or " Bar." At intervals, we also heard the words—
" That clause pass. Opinion say, Aye—contrary, No—
think ayes have it." And this was the whole of
the information we were able to collect. Several
Honourable Members appeared at length to consider this
somewhat uninteresting, and began drowsily to cry for
" Question" and " Division," which, we conclude, meant
" Adjourn." Still did Mr. Bernal go on, repeating again
and again the disjointed phrases—" Clause as amended—
stand part—Bill ;" the monotony being frequently, how-
ever, broken by certain Members on the Opposition side
suggesting " something" inaudible, to which certain other
Members on the Ministerial benches replied another
" something," equally unintelligible. The amount of our
knowledge, therefore, might be stated at rather less than
nothing : and, from the noisy buzz which prevailed in the
House, we should say that to nine-tenths of the Members
everything was quite as difficult of comprehension.
Clauses up to 134 were agreed to.
Clause 135 was postponed.
Clauses up to 142 were then agreed to.
Clause 143, after a short conversation, in which Mr.
Shaw, Lord Morpeth, Sir R. Fergusson, and Mr. Wyse
took part, was agreed to.
Clause 144 was agreed to, as was clause 145, after a
few words from Sir R. Fergusson, Mr. Pigot, and Mr.
Callaghan.
Clause 146 was agreed to, with a few verbal amend-
ments.

Clauses from 157 up to 246 were then agreed to.
Clause 247 was agreed to after some verbal amend-
ments.

Clause 248 was postponed.
Clauses 249 and 250 were agreed to.
Mr. BROTHERTON moved that the Chairman do
report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Lord MORPETH considered it would be better to go
through the schedules now, and consider the postponed
clauses at another opportunity, and perhaps this would
meet the views of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Sergeant JACK SON objected to proceeding with
the Bill at this rapid rate; he was unable to follow the
Chairman in the clauses which he had proposed, and he
had not even read the marginal notes.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Bill had been
before the House for these four years, and therefore the
Learned Sergeant must have had opportunities sufficient
to become acquainted with it.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON begged the Noble Lord's
pardon—nothing, like the present Bill had ever been pro-
posed to the House before.

The schedules and the -proposed clauses were then
added to the Bill.

Mr. SHAW proposed n clause to provide compensation
for the Lord Mayor, President of the Court of Conscience,
and junior Aldermen. It was erroneously supposed that
the clause included compensation to himself.—Agreed to.
The Host. MEMBER then proposed a clause providing for
the charities of the Blue Cat Hospital School of Dublin.
Colonel SIBTHORP would support the clause, as he
wished to see those grammar schools encouraged. If her
Majesty's Ministers had been at one of these schools, they
would have probably got some of the floggings they had
since so richly deserved.—Agreed to.
The preamble was then agreed to, and the Report was
ordered to be brought up on Monday.
The Glass Daties Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed on Monday.
The Indemnity Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Monday.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day for going into Committee on the
Bills of Exchange Bill (No. 2).
Sir ROBERT INGLIS objected to the house going
into a measure of so much importance at so late a period
of the night.
Mr. BROTHERTON protested against any further
business being proceeded with, and would move the ad-
journment of the House.—( Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had
no wish to press the Bill, if the feeling of the House was
against it. He had no concern with the Bill, but it was
one of the greatest importance to the commercial world.
Mr. CA YLE Y had some amendments to move, and
hoped the House would give him an opportunity of
moving them, if they now went into Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
his object was to give relief to the commercial world,
which was rather embarrassed by the decision of the Bank
of England, not to discount Bills under 54 per cent.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS, as a representative of the manu-
facturing interest, supported the Bill. He could not see
why a manufacturer who was unable to dispose of his goods
from the depressed state of the market, should not be en-
..

titled to raise money at six or seven per cent. interest, by
making a deposit of goods in order to save his principal.
The Bill was, in his opinion, a most valuable one, and he
felt it his duty to give it his cordial support.—( Hear.)
Lord WORSL E Y trusted that Hon. Members, consi-
dering the late period of the Session and the importance
of the Bill, would not object to its being forwarded a stage
then.

The House then went into Committee on the Bill.

After a few observations from Sir R. INGLIS,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served that the Bill would not come into operation until the
interest of money was above five per cent. Until that
occurred the Bill was of no more value than the paper on
which itwas written. As the law at present stood a party
could not obtain accommodation upon a simple con-
tract, but by making a deposit of goods to even a
trifling extent he could readily obtain it under that Bill.
Mr. CA YLEY thought the lower class of borrowers in
the country ought to be protected. He would venture to
say the operation of the present Bill would be to enable
men to demand on the country a higher rate of interest
than they had hitherto obtained.

Captain GORDON did not know how the Bill could
affect the farmers of the North of England, but he could
easily imagine how it would operate in the West. He
would suppose a farmer taking a large lot of sheep to one
of the great country fairs, and, on his arrival, finding that
they had fallen in price 43. or ss. each (which was fre.