The Sun.
London, England, 1839-05-08 00:00:00

it in his own possession. Some mischief might happen
to it, and he wished the members of the Convention to
keep it in their own hands until 12 o'clock on Friday.
It was fit and proper that every Member of Parliament
should witness its presentation, in order, if they chose,
to call the attention of the House to it. Having given
notice of sits presentation, the next step :would be to
move that it be printed, in order that every Member
might have a copy of it on the votes, so that they
might " mark, learn, and inwardly digest it." He
would then give notice, either before Whitsuntide or
afterwards, of founding ulterior measures upon it.—
(Hear, hear.) It appeared to him the motion should
be two-fold, as it was necessary to have the petition
taken into consideration with the view of bringing in
an Act of Parliament, in order that they might afford
Members an opportunity of expressing their opinions
upon it. If they were defeated on that, and if men
chose to pass censure and condemnation on themselves,
saying they were not for Universal Suffrage,then he could
say, " Well, gentlemen, what are you for ?" and it might
be advisable to make another motion, to test a milder
result.
Mr. CRAIG said it became his duty as Chairman of
the National Convention, to present the petition to Mr.
Attwood in a formal manner. It was a peti-
tion embodying the prayer of the enduring
but indignant millions. If the prayer of the
petition was acceded to it would inevitably produce
peace, contentment, and prosperity to the poor of this
country. If it were refused, the industrious classes had
in their power the means of obtaining all that the peti-
tion embraced ; he knew, not only by correspondence
from all parts of the country, but by direct and distinct
communications, that the industrious classes would
find the means of producing the beneficial results which
they demanded by their petition, should they be denied
by the House of Commons. In the meantime he
would leave it in Mr. Attwood's hands, well knowing,
that he and Mr. Fielden would do their duty.
Mr. ATTWOOD.—We will.
Mr. COLLINS said that in a few hours he should
have an alphabetical list of all the towns, hamlets, and
villages that had signed the petition. The number of
of signatures amounted to one million and a quarter.
Mr. ATTWOOD—How long is the petition ?
Mr. COLLINS—The petition measures two miles,
1,504 yards ; that was its length when I last measured
it, but there have been considerable additions to it
since.

Mr. ATTWOOD said they should make as accurate a
calculation as they could. He had conversed with the
Speaker of the House of Commons as to the mode of
presenting it. The Speaker said he should like to read
it, as he had heard a great deal about it, and he (Mr.
Attwood) had handed the Speaker a copy. He had
since seen the Speaker, who told him he found nothing
to blame in it.—( Hear, hear.) It was a perfectly Con-
stitutional petition, although he said if his advice had
been taken, he would have told them to soften the lan-
guage. For instance, instead of saying "We de-
mand," they might have said " We claim," which would
have been more respectful. However, they had got the
Speaker's sanction, and it appeared to him (Mr. Att-
wood) that it would ga off very well upon the prelimi-
naries. After presenting it on Friday, he would fix any
day they thought fit for taking it into consideration.
Mr. CRAIG—We had better say Monday.
Mr. ATTWOOD said the first thing was to have a re-
solution to support the five great principles contained
in the petition. If 10, 20, or 30 supported the princi-
ples of the petition, a basis would be laid for introducing
a Bill.
Mr. CRAIG observed, the Convention were unani-
mous upon this point, that Mr. Attwood and Mr.
Fielden ought to do what was requisite as soon as pos-
sible, if consistent with the rules of the House, and
suitable to their own convenience.
Mr. ATTWOOD would do his duty to the best of his
power, and endeavour to carry it into effect. At the
time he (Mr. Attwood) was forming the Birmingham
Political Union, he sent to old Wetherell, a terrible
Tory—( Laughter)—for his opinion. Wetherell real over
the rules and regulations of the Union with great care,
and said, " My opinion is they are strictly legal, but I
do not like to give that opinion professionally, and
therefore I shall not take any fee or brief, because
although my opinion is that it is at present legal, yet it
may become illegal in its operation, and I may lead
honorable men into difficulties." He had also con-
sulted O'Connell, who was then a Radical, upon the
subject, because he wished not to break the law. They
had difficulties to contend with at that time, but the
deputation had a great many more difficulties to con-
tend with than ever he had, because they had not a
tenth part of the protection of the aristrocracy and the
middle classes.
Mr. CRAIG—We are capable of protecting ourselves.
Mr. ATTWOOD—WeII, God give you joy. What
am I to say about the petition ?
Mr. LOVETT—WC are desirous you should present
the petition as soon as possible, and that whatever is
to be done upon it should be done likewise as early as
possible. We understand from you that you will pre-
sent the petition on Friday, and that you will then move
it be printed. We wish that you would as early as
possible, say on Monday, move for leave to bring in a
Bill entitled The People's Charter.
Mr. ATTWOOD—That I refuse. The Hon. Gentle-
man then observed that he agreed with five great points
contained in what was called the Charter, but there
was one which went to alter the ancient mode of taking
the suffrage in the elective districts. That was a
novelty in the Constitution of England that had never
yet been carried out. He would recommend them to
take care, and not entangle themselves with novelty,
because they might be. doing what was perfectly legal
while they kept under the old laws, but might be doing
what was illegal if they attempted change. The objec-
tion he had to it was, that •if the distribution of the
elective franchise were carried out in full according to
the Charter, it would have the effect of giving to Ireland
one-half of the representation. If the Irish people
went on increasing, and the English people diminishing,
it would give to the most miserable people in the world
the power of making laws for this generous and indus-
trious nation.
Mr. F. O'Corixon—Made miserable by the aris-
tocracy.
Mr. LOVETT said the members of the Convention
had been elected not merely to watch the petition, but
to get the People's Charter introduced into the House.
Mr. Aimoon—l think you are mistaken when you
say you are elected for that purpose.
Mr. LOVETT—The People's Charter having been
agreed to by the people, and we having been appointed
to cause it to be presented to the House, are we to
understand that you will not move for leave to bring
in that Bill ?
Mr. ATTWOOD—Not beyond the five points I have
stated—undoubtedly not.
Mr. LOVETT—WiII you move, for instance, to bring
in a Bill embracing the principles of Universal Suffrage,
Annual Parliaments, Vote by Ballot, Equal Represen-
ketion, Payment of Members, and no disqualification ?
Mr. ATTWOOD—That I decidedly approve of. I al-
ways meant to do that, but I deny that you have been
elected for the purpose of introducing the Charter.
Mr. LOVETT—We do not give way on the Charter.
The people of England and Scotland are unanimous
upon it.
Mr. ATTWOOD—I do not believe the people of Eng-
land are unanimous in its favour.
Mr. LOVETT—We look on the Irish as brethren, and
as one family with ourselves.
Mr. ATTWOOD—So do I, and I look on the Hindoos
as brethren ; but I do not believe there is one man in
England that would give to Ireland 200 representatives
and England only 400.
Mr. LOVETT—You will not pledge yourself, then,
to move for leave to bring in a Bill.
Mfr. ATTWOOD—I will pledge myself to nothing ; it
will entirely depend upon the treatment I may receive
in the House. If I am treated well in the House of
Commons, and find I get 10, 15, or 20 men to vote with
me, I shall try one test, and another, and another. I
don't pledge myself to do it, but I will present the peti-
tion and take the sense of the House on the five prin-
ciples it contains, with which I agree ; but whether I
shall move for leave to bring in a Bill will depend on
many circumstances—how the country goes, and whe-
ther it is approved of, and whether the bulk of the peo-
ple are still with you. You have now very nearly half
the labourers against you.—(Cries of " No, no.")
Mr. O'Corssoa said the very position laid down by
the Hon. Member was that which made it necessary
for them to ask for his assistance. They were per-
fectly aware there would be great hostility to all their
measures in the House of Commons. He understood
that although the Hon. Member objected to the de-
tails of the Charter, that he would first present the
petition, then move that it be printed, then move that
it be entertained, and then move for a Bill to carry out
the principles of the petition.
Mr. ATTWOOD—I have not the least objection to
move for that Bill, but I don't like promising before I
see how the thing stands. If I find there is hooting
and laughing, and crowing, and all sorts of botheration
when I present the petition—if I have a regular sicken-
ing of it, then I'll promise nothing. My promise is,
that I will take the sense of the House on those five

p oints, and the necessity of carrying them into opera.
tiion.

Mr. O'CONNOR said that all the laughing, hooting,
,and scorn would not prevent them from taking the
course they felt right. He (Mr. O'Connor) had often
received such treatment in the House of Commons ; so
had Mr. Attwood ; but he should be sorry if such
treatment at all distleartened them in pressing their
'petition on through its several stages. One of those
tstages was the presentation of the petition, and another
twas to make the People's Charter the law of the land.
Mr. ATTWOOD—WeII, we can talk about this on
34Ionday, as a notice will be given on Friday, the House
will have the opportunity of reading the petition.
Mr. LOVETT—We wish the whole thing to be settled
ta Monday.
Mr. O'Coltrion thought they had better not take
Om petition back through the streets that day, as that
would only look like a mockery. He thought it might,
wii boat any inconvenience, be left in Mr. Attwood's
tot Ise.