The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-11 00:00:00

WEST LONDON CEMETREY.

Mr. HARVEY brought up the report of the Committee
on the West London and Westminster Cemetery Company Bill.
Mr. G. KNIGHT objected to the report being brought up
and moved that the Bill be re-committed.
After a few words from Mr. WARLEY and Mr. A. TREVOR,
Mr. HARVEY said the objection appeared to be to the
mortuary fees to be given to the Clergyman. It would ap-
pear that because this Cemetery was at the West end, the
Clergymen thought he was entitled to a fashionable fee.
He would have no objection to a fee on the ad valorem principle.
The House would recollect that there were poor people as well
as rich people at the West End, and it would be unfair to
make the one pay as large a fee as the other.
Sir R. INGLIS opposed the Bill.
Mr. HUME hoped the House would allow the Bill to pro-
ceed another stage.
Mr. GALL Y KNIGHT then withdrew his motion, the
Report was received, and the Bill ordered to be engrossed.
Mr. WALL-ACE gave notice that as no one would own
the Cotton Yarn Company Bill, he gave notice that on
Wednesday he would move that it be read a second time this
day six months.
Mr. A. TREVOR wished to know from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, whether it was his determination to proceed
with the Church-Rates Bill on the 21st of May.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Bill stood on the notice book for that day. He hoped to be
able to bring it on, and he trusted it would be concluded then.
Mr. TREVOR wished to ask whether the Government in-
tended to bring in any Bill, or do anything for the relief of the
Coroners of Durham, whose case had been much altered by
the Bishops Bill of last year ?
Lord J. RUSSEL L—l hope so.
DISTRESS IN SCOTLAND.

Mr. HUME begged to ask the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, whether it was true that and public assistance had been
given towards the relief of the distress prevailing in the North
of Scotland ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
like to answer questions of such a nature prematurely.
However, the question having been asked, it was his duty
to state that it was about a month ago the Government were
made aware of the distress in certain parts of Scotland—they
were also told at the same time that considerable sub-
scriptions had been entered into in various places, but that more
assistance was wanted. After full inquiry the Government had
sent down a valued officer of the public, Sir John Hill, with
power to aid in extreme cases, but dependent entirely upon the
amount of subscriptions and local benevolence and assistance.
He hoped no further discussion would at present be provoked,
as it might lead to the most mischievovs consequences; but at
a fitting time he would be prepared to defend the conduct pur-
sued by his Majesty's Government.
Mr. HUME thought no funds should have been advanced
by the Government, while the House was sitting, without ob-
taining its sanction.
THE ICE-BOUND WHALERS.

Sir R. PEEL begged to know what the intention of his
Majesty's Government was with respect to the ice-bound ships,
on the subject of which he had presented a petition fr3m
Dundee a short time since.
Mr. BARING made a few remarks in reply, which were
inaudible.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observer],
with reference to the conduct of Government in sending relief
to the distressed poor of Scotland, that he had not acted in any
way contrary to the usages of the house.
Major BI4:AUCLERK believed the distress in Scotland
had arisen from the want of Poor Laws in that country.
REFORM OF THE CRIMINAL LAW.

Sir E. WILMOT begged to ask the Noble Lord (J. Rus-
sell) whether it was the intention of Government to bring in a
Bill, embodying the recommendation of the Commissioners,
appointed to enquire into the state of the Criminal Law, re-
specting the ages at which boys were to be subjected to sum-
mary punishment ; or if he ( Sir E. Wilmot) brought in a Bill on
the subject, he wished to know whether the Government would
give it their support ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he believed the Govern-
ment had no intention to bring in any Bill on the subject;
but if the lion. Baronet brought in such a Bill it would receive
his (Lord J. Russell's) support,
DECCAN PRIZE-MONEY.

Mr. ROBINSON begged to know whether the Govern-
ment would give any information relative to the payment of the
Deccan prize-money?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
would be prepared to answer the question to-morrow.
SPAIN.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, with reference to a motion o

which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir H. Hardinge) had given
notice, relative to the withdrawal of British troops from
the service of the Queen of Spain, begged to say that the Hon.
Member, who had a motion for Thursday for the abolition of the
penny stamp on papers, had refused to give way, his Majesty's
Government having felt it their duty to resist that motion on
the ground that the experiment of last year had not yet had a
fair trial. The Right Hon. Baronet would, therefore, have
an opportunity of bringing the question before the House on
Monday on going into Committee of Supply, and he hoped he
would not state the precise terms of his motion.
Sir H. HA RDINGE would take care that he would be
prepared on Thursday to state the exact words of the motion
he intended to make.
PATRONAGE AT THE HORSE GUARDS.

Lord G. SOMERSET was sorry again to intrude on the
House with the personal affair in which they had been engaged
on Friday last; since then he had had a communication
with Lord E. Somerset, who stated that as far as his recollection
went he had never made any written application for a
commission for Mr. Lovesey, and that he never had
the slightest hope of obtaining Mr. Lovesey's vote
by gettio7 him the commission.--( Hear, hear.) He
had also the denial of Captain Marshall that any political
means had been used in obtaining the commission.—( Hear,
hear.) However, the most important document which
he held was from Mr. Lovesey himself, in which
he stated that the charge brought against him, of the charge
of politics, because he obtained the commission from the
Beaufort family, was distinctly untrue. He had never been
asked to make, nor had he made, any concession of political
principle upon the occasion..
Capt. BEI? KELE Y had never said that M. Lovcsey made
use of the words imputed to him in the .51,rning Chroni-
cle. What he said was that it had been communicated to
Lord Seagrave that such was the intention of Mr. Lovesev,
in the event of his obtaining the commission through the
interest of the Beaufort family. That had now been denied
by Mr. Lovesey, and he gave the Noble Lord the full
benefit of that denial. The plain, broad, and simple fact
that at an election which took place shortly after the commission
was granted, Mr. Lovcsey voted Tory, whereas formerly he
' had always voted Whig.--(Loud cheers.)
Lord G. SOMERSET would only remark, that the elec.
tion did not take place till two years after the commission
had been granted.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME considered it very important that the Noble
Lord should produce the application made to the Horse
Guards by Lord E. Somerset. He had produced three let-
ters, but not that most important one.
Lord G. SOMERSET would be mot t happy to produce such
letter, if the Hon. Member would tell him how. The fact was,
there was so such letter in existence. The applications made
by both Lords Seagrave and E. Somerset were personal, and
were so entered in the book kept at the Horse Guards.
Mr. HUME—The Noble Lord had certainly led the
House to believe that such letters were in existence,
for he talked of a strict search having been made.
It was the feeling of those who sat around him, as well as his
own, that the Noble Lord intended to convey the impression
that such letters had been in existence, and in his opinion
their non-production made the case complete.
Lord G. SOMERSET said all the documents in existence
had been produced. Should any more turn up upon the sub-
ject he would be most happy to lay them before the House
at any time.
Mr. SCARLE TT contended that the Noble Lord (G.
Somerset) had completely vindicated the conduct pursued by
the Commander of the Forces.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
The Order of the Day for the third reading of the
Municipal Corporations ( Ireland) Bill having been read,
The O'Conor Don, Mr. J. Grattan, Mr. Maher, Mr. Chap.
man, and several other Hon. Members, presented petitions from
various places in Ireland, in favour of the Irish Alunicipal Bill.
Mr. GOULB URN would have been happy to have been
saved the trouble of discussing a question which had been already
two Sessions under consideration, and would confine his re-
marks within as narrow limits as possible. The first obser.
vation he should make upon the Bill now before them was
this, that so far as it went to remedy the evil which was the
foundation of their legislation upon the subject—so far as it
went to the extinction of corporation, which were no longer
suited to the altered circumstances of that country, it was im-
perfectly executed, and did not embody what he believed to
be the almost unanimous feeling of the country, which was for
the total extinction of these Corporations. Some Hon. Gen-
tlemen had maintained that the Corporations ought to be abo-
lished, not only because they were incompetent to the perfor-
mance of their several duties, but were corrupt in the adminis-
tration of them, both pecuniary and municipal. Now, he was
of opinion that the new Corporations would, in addition, be
corrupt politically. How then, if it were so, could his lion.
Friend opposite ask Parliament to affirm the principle con-
tained in the Bill ? The boroughs selected, too, appeared to
have been selected, not because they were boroughs of greater
purity than others—it was not a question of greater or less
abuse—but, whatever was the extent, it was sufficient, and
punishment was to be inflicted equally on those that were guilty
and. those that were not guilty. Ile knew not on what principle
„Gls was done. It was a most peculiar sort of justice fur Ireland
that placed among the condemned the borough of Goree, and

confirmed in alleits immunities the borough adjoining. He knew
oot.on what ground this distinction was made. Again, too,
while the Bill exempted from destruction considerable property
in some places, in others it adopted a species of confiscation—
giving it to other towns, having no claim on the property, and
investing the new Corporations with considerable power for its
administration. They would find in the Bill before the House
that the different boroughs were dealt with out of no abstract
considerations, nor according to any established rule. Theft!
were 47 charters to be granted to these boroughs, and the Dili
proceeded to enact what might be a matter of little linnet',
tance in a general point of view, but connected with the state
of Ireland it became a subject of ,greater magnitude; it was
no less than to vest in his Majesty's Government a power to
incorporate any other town in Ireland which might solicit the
privilege. He considered this a power which ought not to be
vested in any Government, as the power of granting a charter
of incorporation would be then left to the discretion of an in-
dividual. The franchise, according to the Bill, would in
large towns be given to all who were rated as high as 10/.,
and in the minor towns to all who were rated as high as Si. in
either case coupled with a residence of six months, and the
payment of the customary rates. Now, any one that knesil
that fact of the United Kingdom must be well aware of the
class of persons who occupied tenements at such a rental, If
they were not persons of the lowest grade, they certainly
were very low, often times the victims of want, and liable to
be influenced by any bigot or political profligate, who might
attempt to bend them to his purposes. If, however, suppo-
sing the law to be fairly administered, and supposing the fran-
chise to be so managed as to render it impossible to commit
fraud, even then the lower class of Irish would not be
exempted from an influence which would operate upon
them with great power. But the franchise wont& in all pro-
bability, not be fairly bestowed ; but as it was cdfrttpt poiitia
cally, it would be corrupt municipally. Those called Open to
vote would not all be bona fide 51. or 10/. householders; but
the same frauds would be committed as in the election Q' a
Member of Parliament, and tenants would be found to occupy
any house in the place. Many of the dwellings would be let
at 21. a week, and the vote would be claimed, whether the
residence had continued for six months or not. In saying that
the right of franchise was liable to be perverted, he need only
allude to the facts elicited before the Parliamentary Com-
mittee, known by the name of the Intimidation Committee,
He argued that if the political franchise was abused, the roue
nicipal franchise might be abused also. The regular maeliie
nery for an election would always be organised, and for thi
large towns the Bills possessed the peculiar disadvantage, that
yearly, or oftener, there would be a regular rehearsal for an
election of Members of Parliament, every political evil would
be perpetrated, and the result would be an unceasing animosity
between the rival parties. Hostility would be kept alive, and.
party feeling would never be permitted to slumber between
one election and another. In giving these G.rporatims to tho
towns it was giving power to a numerical majority, in whom
would be vested all influence, and who would return only such
Members to the Council as were exclusively of one religions
persuasion, and thus the very evil attempted to be remedied by
the abrogation of the old Corporations would be revived,
By the means of these Councils a regular organised war wouttl
be carried on against the Established Church of the country.
In looking at questions relating to Ireland he thought
it impossible to disconnect them from the prospects of
the Established Church. To that Charch they must look
for all amelioration and improvement in the condition
of the Irish people ; and before they could place that
people on a level with those of England greater efficiency
and security must be given to the Establishment. Nothing
could be more prejudicial to the interests of that Church than
the placing in the hands of these Councils the means of cad's
ing on a constant warfare against it. He firmly believed, if they'
wished to benefit Ireland, it must be by placing the Clergy of
the Establishment on a footing to enable them satisfactorily tá
discharge their duties, and give them the means of regularly
recovering their incomes, that they might live in peace among*,
the people. Like some of those small patches of verdant
ground to be seen in Ireland, commencing at the base of the
bill, and gradually extending its fertile prospect to the eye,
should be the refreshing influence of the Clergymen on, the
people. This great national blessing could not, however, be
anticipated if they allowed these organised Councils all over
the country, stimulating each other to agitation. They were
told the Bill was to be granted to Ireland because a similar
measure hail passed in England; but he did not think llte
situation of the two countries was similar. It was said thriA
Ireland had the power to govern herself. He did not deny
it, nor would ho be one to withhold that right from any palit.-
cular class. So far from debarring them from such a privi-
lege, in the Bill that was before them last year the right of
self government was acknowledged. That Bill gave the
people the power of levying taxes for local purposes, and
placed the funds in the administration of a resident body of
their own choice. But he would ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite
whether there was not a great distinction between the circa&
stances of England and Ireland? and he would ask even fur.
ther, whether, if they were alike, the English Bill had given
a municipal constituency to villages ? In England, where a
high degree of civilization existed, where the people obeyed
the law through feeling less than from fear, guards had been
devised against abuses in Municipal Corporations which were
not thought of in the Bill for Ireland, where civilization wad
less advanced and order less observed. But the main evil of
the measure was the injury which it was calculated to do 418
Established Church in Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head
of the Government in that House had said, on a recent occa-
sion, that nothing should prevent his adoption of measures for
the perfect safety of the Established Church in Ireland ; but,
notwithstanding that assertion of the Noble Lord's, it was
not fair to call on the House to decide a question so se-
' riously connected with it as Municipal Corporations for
that country, until some more specific information had been
laid before it.—( Hear.) There was another point to which
lie wished to direct the notice of the House. It was the
connection which the measure before them had with circum-
stances in reference to the other House of Parliament. When
the subject was under discussion in the last Session, the Noble
Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government in that House
had called the attention of Hon. Members to the reasons urged
by the other House for their rejection of it. In those reasons
a hope was expressed that at no'very distant period a measure
might be devised for the establishment of good local govern-
ments in Ireland, in which all parties could concur. The
Noble Lord, in reading them, saw a hope in that passage of a
reconciliation between both branches of the Legislature, and
stated his desire to be to offer no unreasonable impediment to
that probable result. How was it possible, he (Mr.. Goulburn)
would ask, to reconcile the measure under consideration with
the objections of the House of Lords ? How far was the
Noble Lord's prediction justified by his motion ? The Noble
Lord, instead of endeavouring to reconcile conflicting opinion,
had now come forwa,rd, not with the measure which he was
before willing to adopt, not Kith a measur?! calculated to tooth
opposition or soften asperities, but with one which aggravated
them by additional enactments, and which was still more than
the former opposed to the views advanced by the other branch
of the Legislature. He should oppose the motion with all
his power.

Mr. TANCR ED differed with the Right lion. Gentleman
n his views as to the effect the Bill before the House would
have on Ireland. He firmly believed on the contrary, that
it was now the only means left of en to benefit that country.
The present Corporations of Ireland held a very dishonour-
able historical and political position. In the first national
Parliament which legislated for that country Sir Arthur Chi-
chester obtained from James the First the power of creating as
many new boroughs as he chose, for the purpose of supporting
the Protestant influence there. Forty-six were called into
being by him on that occasion, and they had since continued
the bane of Ireland. From their beginning to the prent hour
they were found the ready tools of the oligarchy. So worth-
less, indeed, had they become that their abolition was univer-
sally agreed to. No party objected to it. The Church had
been unwisely introduced by its pretended friends, who made
it the stalking-horse of opposition, and thus attracted atten-
tion to all its defects. Did that contribute to its safety He
would leave them to answer it, and pass from the subject. The
population of Ireland was divided into parties. By means of
the difference of religion a wall of separation was built UP
between them in political matters. Gentlemen on the other
side of the House said that wall should not alone be preserved.
but be built up higher than ever. He (Mr. Tancred) and
those who supported the measure under consideration, thought
that it would be prostrated with the ground, and that the con-
tending parties should be brought together, and then left to
the influence of our common nature. A decided amelioration
had taken place in Ireland. The people now began to feel a
confidence in the English Government.—( Hear, hear.) Lie
should give the motion his most hearty support.
Mr. HAMILTON said that the proposition of the Noble
Lord was now supported by two classes of persons—both in
and out of Parliament : those who were anxious, and avowed
themselves anxious, to advance the democratic principle and
influence ; and those who were seeking to strengthen the Re-
man Catholic interest, with a view first to the subversion of the
Established Church, and with a view afterwards to other and
ulterior objects. Now it was precisely because he (Mr. Ha-
milton) thought that the one ought to be strenuously resisted,
and the other strenuously restrained, that he felt himself com-
pelled to vote against the measure. Again, because it was
said by the opponents of the measure that, by the opportu-
nity which these new Corporations would afford for agitatior!,
the danger to the Established Church would be increased,
an attack was immediately made upon the Established Church.
It was said to be the obstacle in the way of good government
—that it was interposed between the people and their rightslrat
that the people have a right to good government—and that
they could not obtain it because of the Established Church.
In that argument there was a fallacy and an assumption. C.i.ro
tainly the people had a right to good government—it w:!g.
consideration which society was bound to render to individuals
for their conformity to its ordinances and regulations; buse,!:
was assumed in the argument that good government and
a_lte
government were identical; whereas it was precisely bee u_nt
under existing circumstances, in Ireland self-governn;__
would not be good government that he (Mr. Hamilton)t
desirous to withhold it. It had likewise been urged tha
le
friendly contact of persons whom a difference in political d°
tocivn
ing had hitherto kept apart would be useful in softening a it
these asperities, and creating a milder and better feelingn..
_ot
was precisely because they were calculated to increase aencisiouns
to diminish—to perpetuate and not to extinguish—di Great
in Ireland, that he for one was opposed to the measure.
ncy °f
stress had been laid, and justly laid, upon the exec
.hat pro_
assimilating the institutions of the two countries. t
position, as a general proposition, he was inclined In that
agree ; but dissimilarities had been pointed out niunicipal
vented the application of the rule to the case 2v
°et adverted
Corporations. There was one dissimilarity not y upon
to, and which appeared to him to bear very materially la .7
the subject. He was happy to have the opportunt !...°fiopuosinot;
ing it out, because it was unconnected with anyi
rt'; cousis"a
political dissension. The dissimilarity he alluded to
difference
in wha the might call the -comparative statistic.
co.
of the population of the two countries. England was

s)

tiallY a I°annfacturirT----------°-----------•-.•-•----g country, abounding in towns
of
con- duct
which brought
the House of Lords
into a conflict, which
l2ideration, wealth, and importance, and requiring, there- the Right Hon. Baronet had the foresight to see could not be
ioarne,i extensive civic jurisdictions. Ireland, on the other successful with the majority of the House of Commons ?
, was an agricultural country—a country of agricultural There was one way in which,•according to his friends, the
labourers. She had more agricultural labourers for the Right Hon. Baronet might escape from this dilemma. They
cultivation of her fourteen millions of acres than England said, " You don't know Sir Robert Peel ; he seeks that the
for the cultivation of her thirty-four millions. What bo- Irish Corporations Bill must pass, and when he comes into
tilefit would her 1,05e000 labourers derive from the cleans- office." This prospect his friends foresaw. When he comes
by
and lighting in one way rather than another, or even into office, then he will pass something in the shape of a Tithe
,Y th° self-government of a few paltry towns ? Could it Bill if he can ; and after that he will say, " Now the Church
jeanly be supposed they would rebel if Parliament should is, you see, in a little better condition : now I'll consent to
I.!fuse to incest with tho gown and insignia of office the passing the Corporation Bill." If the Right Hon. Baronet
orrovoet of Monaghan, the Portreeve of Enniscorthy, did mean to pursue this course, it would be fair now to
r tem Sovereign of Clonakilty ? He regretted that lan- avow it. But at all events be stood in this unpleasant pre-
•guage had been used in reference to the question, both in and dicament at the present time. According to himself he was
out of Parliament, of a violent and threatening character— perilling the country; and according to his friends he was de-
;ad,anguage that was calculated, whether so intended or not, to ceiving it.—(The Hon. Gentleman was loudlyeheered through-
to the belief that the people of Ireland would be justified out his speech; and loud cries of " Divide, divide !")
ft the measure should be rejected, in seeking to obtain it by The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place.
te'3l'e, As such language, however, had been used, he On the re.admissiOn of strangers,
i%.,,Ftild take leave to say that he had no fears whatever Lord STANLEY was on his legs. The question before
lu it rebellion in Ireland. It was not merely because the House now was, not whether at any future time, and
t ° knew that the battle was not always to the strong, or under circumstances different to the present, Municipal
0 the mane ;
e but because also he had a great reliance upon Corporations might not be granted to Ireland—that was a
Insjol4o good sense, the good feeling, and the loyalty of the question which he never took up for argument. What he
rity of his Roman Catholic countrymen. They might be now contended for was, that, in the present political state of
koreed, perhaps, to join the National Association—they might Ireland, in the present state of the Church of Ireland, it
."'e Induced, perhaps, to do outrage to their feelings in voting would not be safe to give municipal institutions to Ireland,
,agaititit their landlords at elections—but depend on it it was not but especially such institutions as were provided in the Bill.
"me to this, that they would enter into the field against their —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last
40vereign. 'There was no one who could deprecate the intro- charged his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) with an inten-
dction of such a topic more than he did ; but he felt it his tion, at some future period, when his Right Hon. Friend got
duty to add, that, if in an evil hour, and because Parliament,
into office of bringing in some specific measure relative to the
ill% the exercise of its deliberative and legislative functions,' Church of' Ireland, and of conceding, after that, this very
ttnould think fit to legislate in a manner which to its wisdom measure which his Right Hon. Friend now opposed. If the
might seem best for the interests of the whole community, a Hon. Member who spoke last cauld determine the period of
Portion of the people of Ireland, misunderstanding the lan- his Right Hon. Friend's return to office, he knew more of the
guage he had alluded: to, and under a sense of imaginary in- matter than he ( Lord Stanley) did. He felt satisfied that his
!tilt or injustice, should have recourse to the expedient of Right Hon. Friend would not sanction, as head of any Go-
force, there would not be wanting those in Ireland who would vernment, what he was not now prepared to support in his
stand forward in defence of their King and the independence private capacity as an individual Member of that House. He
and supremacy of the Legislature, and he would have neither a would now repeat what he had before said, that if the security
fear nor a doubt as to the result. But he would again repeat of the Church of Ireland was provided for, much of the ob-
that such a conjuncture was as improbable as it would be dejection to this Bill would be removed. The Hon. Gentleman
plorable. Let a Government be formed which, administering who spoke last called upon his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R.
the laws mildly, but firmly, would not prostitute them to the Peel) to place the Church in that situation of security.
purposes of party.
Mr. BULWE R—l did not.
Mr. D. BRO WNE did not think any new arguments were Lord STANLE Y—Did not the Hon. Gentleman say that
required in support of the measure, as those already adduced when the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth got into office
were irrefragable. How was the allegiance to be extorted he would first secure the Church, and then grant municipal
from the people of Ireland if justice was to be denied them ? institutions?
,If they were looked upon as British subjects they should have Mr. BULWER explained.—He did not speak of the Right
the benefit of British laws. It was the
policy of this country Hon. Baronet coming into office.—( A laugh.)
to conciliate the people of Ireland, for suppose a war were to Lord STANLE Y—His answer was, that, in office, his
break out to-morrow, how could it be expected that the Irish Right Hon. Friend would take no course which he was not
People would press forward to man our armies or our fleets, prepared to take out of it. Let the Hon. Member call upon
while they felt that they were an insulted race, and denied the present Ministers to follow the same course. He contended
el'eti the benefit of equal laws ? He would moister his vote that as there existed a numerous and powerful party in Ire-
at night in favour of his own country, as he had already land hostile to the Church, a p arty who had exd
°ne in favour of Canada, because he was favourable to the their determination to use municipal institutions for thperesse pur-
a;general principle of Local Government. What had Earl pose of overturning that Church, it was, with him, quite
dey told them, in speaking of Ireland ? That Noble Earl a sufficient reason why he would refuse those institutions
coheythat there was but one alternative, coercion or conciliation, at present. Look at the Speech from the Throne at the
had already tried coercion, and they should now adopt opening of the present session of Parliament. What were
neiliation. It was their duty to look to the cause of the evil, the questions recommended for their consideration ? There
end
Colonele it.
were three questions especially recommended to the attention
Gentlemen
VERNER said it had been asserted by the Hon. of Parliament, not to be considered separately, but as having
oettilltlernen opposite that this measure was only a continuation mutual dependence one upon the other, for the purpose of
Cathe,gTeat measure of 1829, for that measure placed Roman improving the general condition of the country. These three
Th....o,nes on an equality in every respect with Protestants. subject were—the state of the poor, the state of the Church
I be, for one, denied. It was a capitulation and not a sur- and Protestant Clergy of Ireland, and municipal institutions.
haint veer at that time by the Protestants, and the compact entered Now hitherto Ministers had brought forward only one of
g° had been broken by the Roman Catholics. He should give these three questions, that of municipal institutions, and kept
laA,lecided vote against the present measure, back the other two. Surely Ministers ought to tell them how
siueir• BELLE W would view the present measure as a sec- they were prepared to deal with the other two. Even if the
rent,,„'_' of the plan upon which the people of Ireland were to be Church of Ireland was secure at this moment he could not
ed, and he would say, that if the Bill even did not pass, say that he would support this Bill. If the state of society in
of`3l°ruild have no effect upon' the present popular Government Ireland was the same as in England they would have but
st e and. The peace of that country had already been re- little to do—nothing more would be necessary than to apply
tbeired, by the mild sway of the Lord Lieutenant, and the laud- to Ireland the same rules they applied to England in the Me-
w': .exertions of the associations of the people themselves. nicipal Reform Bill. But, unfortunately, the state of society
the any measure was proposed for the amelioration of was not the same. They were charged with intending an innnin-
situation of the Irish people, Hon. Gentlemen opposite suit to Ireland by the refusal of municipal institutions
identified it with the ruin of the Protestant Church. similar to those of England and Scotland. Unhappily
lr i ''' ti. BULWER said the question was, whether or no there prevailed too strong a disposition in Ireland among
for and and England were to be governed alike ? One asks a certain party to draw the most inflammatory inference from
tit some
tinestion great statesmanlike principle when a whole policy is every event and every word that could be misconstrued into
twee. What is the principle here? A difference be- insult and oppression. Political asperity and feelings of cell-
me et' the state of Ireland and England. Is that the princi. gious differences mixed themselves up with the consideration
et Well, then, gentlemen are told of the difference not only of public questions and in public life, but entered into
sus!en England and Ireland in regard to the Church ques- and embittered the intercourse of private life itself. In the
ho.a - What do they reply ? That this difference is not to English Corporation Bill the Mayor and Council were re-
iftaken into account—that Ireland is to be governed not as quired to take a certain oath, the 9th George IV., in which
ojand,
eti7n,. but as part of the empire of Great Britain. They they hound themselves not to do anything tending to weaken
no
.)_ this difference on religious matters where the two people or to endanger the Established Church. Now this proviso
wt. notoriously differ. They contend for it on State matters, was omitted in the present Bill. Was this done intentionally—
, 'ere, if the Catholic Emancipation Bill is not a lie, there is was the object of it to relieve the Catholics of Ireland from
alshnelr differences Was there ever anything so perfectly the necessisy of making any such declaration He was well
1,, srd as this ? But let us carry on the argument. If the aware that the Test and Corporation Acts did not exist in Ire-
v'en°Ple are in a peculiar condition from 'all other countries, land, but a similar declaration was required from Roman Ca-
hat follows as a consequence? What in legislating for such a tholics, both by the Act of 1793 and by that of 1829. Now,
PeePle you must consult their peculiar interests. And how in the Irish Municipal Bill these two Acta, so far as regarded a
'tireesan you best ascertain these? Why, from themselves, to be declaration against doing anything to weaken or endanger the
.' If, then, the Irish especially differ from the English, Established Church, were repealed. With respect to the qua-
s°,,n are bound, in legislating for Ireland, to consult the feel- lificaticn, why was it so different in this Bill and in the Scotch
;al'es and- the opinions of the majority of the Irish people, and English Bills? By the Scotch Bill it was required that the
I:ep.ressed by their representatives. If the Irish do not voter should hare occupied a 101 house for six months, while in
intally differ from the English you are bound to govern the Bill now before them the qualification required in all the
themeuu,_, by the English law. He did not see how gentlemen corporations of Ireland, with the exception of five or six
tea.'n.eseepe from one of these two conditions. When the towns, was only the occupancy of a Si. house. For what
hojority of the Irish people say we wish to be considered reason was it that in Londonderry, with a population of
tilt as a sect apart, but as a portion of the citizens of the Bri- 19,000, the qualification was the occupancy of a Si.
It
i" empire, then you turn round on the other side and say__ house_( Hear)—while in the smallest corporation town in
1, we will not treat you as British subjects, but as Irish Scotland the qualification required was a 101. rent? Were
noue(a. All that they seemed to care for—they seem to have no the people of Ireland so much more steady and cool in judg-
evoiene°, other. principle, no other policy, no other wish—than to mcnt, so much less likely to abuse municipal. privileges,
the
the_n
nesry risk .of obtaining the__ affections of the people whom free from prejudices, so much more intelligent than_t e
eoectel undertake to govern. But have they ever pursued this Scotch, that they might safely be trusted with a Si. qualifica-
oil"! with common wisdom ? A Noble Lord who spoke tion, while one of 10/. was required for the Scotch ? Besides
sides previous evenings-0 mean to speak plainly, Ido con- this, it was required in Scotland that the assessed taxes should
er that the Catholic subject is to be looked upon dif- be paid up. He might be told that there were no assessed
illeestr"7.from the Protestant)—be gave an apt and felicitous taxes in Ireland ; but this was not a good reason. On the
aa.. anon of his opinion, for, having declared that the one contrary, it was a good reason why the qualification arising
sit' the immense majority, and the other the immense mino- from payment of rent should be placed higher. In England a
etYae'h: said. that his notions' of policy would be to maintain an residence of three years was required, and the payment of rates
NI tnshality between the immense majority on the ono side on a 51. house in the country parts, and in towns on a 10/.
ise, iel's immense minority on the other. But if this is his house. In Ireland, however, the three years' residence was
fe,
~7ahrat has he done—what has he been about for these last dispensed with, the qualification was the renting of a 51. tette-
esese',7_ 3? 'Why did he pass the Catholic Emancipation Bill ment, and the payment of neither assessed taxes nor poor rates
eta Ir3' 0 Irish Reform Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) He passes was required. There were, it was true, no poor rates in Ire-
eitos„"i, which deelures that Protestants and Catholics are land ; but he 'hoped there very soon would be. Under these
'2atjtilleY legal subjects, and hare equal civil rights; he passes circumstances, while there were no rates to be payed in Ire
thel' Issor, Hill, which declares that all men, whether Catholics laud, the least that could be asked would be an extension of
mstroes.tants, who have a certain qualification, should vote the qualification, with a proviso that the payment of rates
f ,k 1:. ber of Parliament. By these two Acts he makes would be required under any Poor-law Act that might here-
eerteePrit•Y in the electoral lists, in whatever creed it is after be introduced. Now one word with respect to tolls.
eleestue atiperier to the minority ; and it is after these two If there was any one thing more complained of in Ireland
alto f es, which he not only consented to carry, but was than another—any thing which was represented as more in-
the orwar,, .
.agoa' • uin carrying that he comes out and says that jurious to the trade and industry of the people, and which
ire;al..erity and the ' minority are to be considered produced more complaint, more agitation, or riet—it was the
7rhe co_4ind this is the Nestor in politics—this is the person payment of tolls. What was proposed by this Bill? Why,
eie stepQI"
forvvard to warn others lest they should by taking that these tolls, so much complained of, productive of so much
e lead t
the hes ttd , 0 another—who declares that for his part he injury and heartburnings, should remain and continuo to be
a.ay.eonse„''''t aller principle of which he is not ready to adopt paid until such time as the debts on the Corporations should
*3a of e'elenees. The fact was, that there are only two be all paid off, and the claims on them satisfied. But was it
lo.eirn Irelands°vrning Ireland. It might be attempted to go- very likely that, even after the debts were paid off, these tolls
ght as the Austrians governed Italy. Gentlemen would be abolished? Upon whom were these tolls charged?
tkoliekih:ta.Yilleitit the minority- were dissected and rebellious, Not upon the townsmen, but upon the rural population. They.
fer lob's.
th mitiority would be armed with sufficient power were the persons aggrieved. The interest of the Corporation
(% erather e Minority down. This was the course of their would be to save their own funds, by continuing to require the
thPeanhlgsse,a tyrannical but* a consistent one. But you payment of the tolls. Was the apprehension a visionary one?
or on ~ ") the opposite benches), right or wrong, The very same case which be anticipated occurred at Carlisle,
as wroee., Fr,°Per to , abandon that course ; you, right under the English Municipal Bill. There was another part
~.. od oitlzuemight proper to declare that the majority were of the present measure of which he decidedly disapproved, and
tel
ireetly
or
ns 33 the minority ; and directly you did this that was the manner in gibbetsw e sheriffs were to be appointed.
to Ng fo n renloved the very foundation stone upon which —( Hear, hear.) He rly disappointed at finding that
Finer poli
ninteeaeavour cY was based it was the height of folly an alteration from the Bill of last year had taken place in
e d. it to maintain that superstructure which it sup- this particular. By the former Bill, that part which related
'then was neee
Co for 'e Ereatte. asary now either to go back—to repeal the to the appointment of sheriffs was comparatively harmless ;
spoidtwarn aadelPation Bill, to repeal the Irish Reform Bill or but by the present arrangement, his Majesty's Government
egnat.°l stesati Peas the Irish Municipal Bill. Gentlemen were only investing the Crown with a power which it would
the 1°11? TO°. HOW can they expect there will not be have the greatest possible difficulty in exercising.—( Hear,
resjjot., directlyeY bring• • • .
0t.,0 A principle and a policy into presence, hear.) He objected, also, to the extent of the measure.
reou tithe grew Posed to the other ; the principle gives the Were they, after all, so sure that all these towns wanted the
„tn i ,er power, the policy opposes it. They must Corporations which were to be imposed upon them ?—( Hear,
Therun their
the.s.e 'Mist he aPritleiple or they mast renounce their policy, hear.) They had had from Belfast, one of the most in-
the twos' a
_9°Mplote system of exclusion, maintained by fluential towns in Ireland, an important petition, which, as far
in-
the ;wits. But he:replete system of conciliation, established by as that town was concerned, decidedly said not.—( Hear,
t? be ti'tlY to be mai' then, will Gentlemen say, is the Proses- hear.) These new corporators.either had duties to perform or
telerit e Prete. ntained in Ireland ? Why, by its ceasing they had not ; and the question was, whether, by creating
Shsting Y, and the ;taut Party, by its forgetting its former supe- them, they were not introducing into the management of the
a,sii.ts prose n'atw_s_ p.a.ssed to maintain it ; and by remem- local affairs of Irish towns a set of men who would become
testis °f 14,10 , condition, founded on recent enactments. mere engines for party purposes.—( Loud cheers.) Let them
teatane--eire press' Popular men in Ireland—and with Irish Ca- not create forty-seven Corporations in such a manner as would
Nltle4 jell they attestants ; and why? They are not Orange Pro- leave scattered over Ireland so many ~ normal schools for po-
I. . ~..:.11: t exclusionist Protestants ; they do not think litical agitation"—( Hear, hear, and cheers)—and political
tli ekre ce citizens the worse men for being Catholic. He violence. He (Lord Stanley) objected, considering the pre-
e Ivo , id not think
eeth u'd no w° them the worse for being Protestant. sent state of the Protestant Church in Ireland, to granttng
,er ,e w ,before slut A
-vr view f 1 -ng eown say one or two words on any Corporations to the towns of that country.— (Hear, hear.)
re ett4 • ° the citi t• '
'lnd • "1541 ' . es ion. Corporations were to destroy They were told they would destroy the Church, and he for
%lei tillatreur plrn Ireland. Why, what has been the very one believed they would ; but, with respect to the dangerous
kw a I State otestantism but Corpcirations ? Was it not by doctrine propagated on the other side of the House, he would
battle °f 41 s and chartered cities of Germany, the free not hesitate to say that if the Church of Ireland were placed
eatp had abis_ders and of the Low Countries that her fiercest in a better situation than it was at present—if measures of re-
km 4 Cor.ver! fought and won? And even in England. it lief for the Church wore first established—his feelings and the
%it leost :orations that Protestantism had found her earliest feelings of Hon. Members on his side of the House would be
111:'vPassionst:tneh defenders. Honourable Gentlemen oppo- greatly modified with regard to the present measure.--( Hear.)
aiirseedry eradi:izid.p.rejudie.ed as they were, would desecrate M. H. GR ATTAN said that with respect to the appoint..
tlise, . ere e which their infant creed was first blessed and ment of Sheriffs, he would ask the Noble Lord what he would
eeitse Illy their
Protestants 1 How little would they be recog- have said if it had been left in the hands'of the Town Councils
t it a_ nen- forefathers
aith Itrish when they said the creed of Rome exclusively ? The Noble Lord's character was well known to
11t04,, of e., , amidst free institutiOns, hut the more sickly them, and they had his speech of that night to add to the num-
-I;itiere ir:.,."1
which free
could never endure the stormy at- ber of his precedine ones in opposition to them. The. Noble
neeMer, -',` wnich free Government deri.ved its vitality and Lord was a disagreeablee' opponent as well as a dangerous one.
rsA- O; ._ , But the standard of Protestantism was to be un- —( A laugh.) If he (Lord Stanley) thought the Church was
tenle orrs° gentlemen
.m.ight be certain that the peoe of endangered by the present measure, with what intention had
of est:ateritristringland would not recognise their colours. Their. he proposed the measure which abolished ten RishePs ? The
MC'ilk,' atard p would appear little better after all than a kind fact was, the opposition of gentlemen at the other side was not
Be ePerY which they had stolen from the middle grentnded upon any fears for the safety of the Church, but. upon
inkClitterteehh.s
(7Peterr.„ the. term ; or all that the most stupid hostility to those individuals by whose assistance the Bill was
ns _0 in teetheto Church of Rome would have made that upheld. They opposed their rights, because they wished to
tee r making ost barbarous times,... they in the 19th century have free. institutions.--( Hear, hear.) If Ireland was not
iii'4eltoilFeeitLilliesgt tile Church of England. Yes, they were their friend, let them shake her off. He agreed with Mr. Fox,
r,tedv,":, t? to
thegrout Protestantismground.._
the very causes which brought that if Ireland was not with them, they had better be without
'1,!I n°, hut, before h ' :--( Rear, hear ) He should now her. He remembered it had been said by some one that he
fat eat_ th the D„ 0 did so, he was anxious to put a wished that Ireland could be sunk under the sea for four-and-
teNeeser'r? thessiiignt Honourable Baronet, who was then twenty hours—(A laugh)—and the declaration of some of
sat however said at °use. Was it true that that Right Hon the
,friends of Hon. Members opposite was, that Ireland
fig;the ~ ne distant time and on a great public occasion, ought to be governed with a severe hand, and be made to
the "'house ehe Might venerate and respect the authority of feel it. " Fas est et ab hoste doceri." But were the Irish
'IOU ~‘ Lords-, yet still these were not the times when what they had formerly been described to be by Dean Swift
lenity " Lords
NI. Baronet0 the esl'uld wage a successful contest with the and others ? Let him tell Hon. Members opposite what that
tett, re
coed beaus
Drese.rafatives of the peo le If the Right people would do. They were resolved no longer to submit
Which 014!his, how could he rpecOncile it with the to the sort of Government they had laboured under. They
men countenancing and pursuing—con- were capable of judging of the characterand intentions of

their rulers, and at the next election they would turn severs
of their opponents out of some of the towns and counties the;
now represented. Peace could not exist in Ireland so long as
a small fraction of the community was set over the great ma-
jority of the people. He regretted that the town of Wick-
low was omitted among those which were to have the benefi'
of corporate reform, for, although its corporate property war
not at the present moment great, circumstances would ere
long increase it nearly to 2,0001. a year ; and he did think
that he, from his near residence to that place, ought to be
permitted to have some share in the management of its funds
—( A laugh)---and that they should not be left wholly in the
hands of a party. The Bill before the House must be passed
or rejected that night. He was sure that, if the party oppo-
site were to come into power, that circumstance would at
once amount to a tacit repeal of the Catholic Emancipation
Act, which would lead eventually to a repeal of the Union.
Mr. M. GASK ELL (who was only partially audible) said
that it might be said that the present measure was one of the
necessary consequences of Roman Catholic Emancipation, and
that it was much better to acquiesce in it quietly than to pro-
voke the people to further demands by a refusal. That Bill
was now the law of the land, and he (Mr. Gaskell) was far
from desiring to see it repealed ; but, if he had read the mea-
sure aright, if he had not misunderstood the intentions of its
framers, it was no part of their design, while they removed
their disabilities from the Roman Catholics, that more serious
disabilities should thereafter be imposed on the Protestants.—
( Hear, hear.) The avowed object of the Government in
introducing this Bill was to provide a better system of local
Government for the urban population of Ireland. The framers
of the measure thought that its provisions were those best
adapted for effecting their objects, but its opponents, while
they acknowledged the same ultimate aim as the result of their
endeavours, differed with them upon the means. They could
not conscientiously approve of the enactments of this Bill, be-
cause they did not see that they would effect that good Local
Government which was so much to be desired. Yet they were
met with every kind of abusive epithets by their opponents,
and were denied all liberty of judgment. This was neither
fair nor statesmanlike. At all events, it would not deter him
from his exoressing his total opposition to this Bill.
Mr. WO UL FE said it was impossible for any one hearing
the speeches made on the other side, either to-night or in the
former debates on this subject, to have been otherwise than
convinced that the only real ground of objection to extending
to Ireland those Municipal Institutions which were already en-
joyed by the people of England and Scotland, was, that the
majority of the people were of the Roman Catholic persua-
sion.—( Hear.) This was the motive for all those charges
as to the dangerous proceedings of the Roman Catholics,
spiritual or lay, which were totally irrelevant to the question,
unless made with reference to this object. The Noble Lord
the Member for North Lancashire, had not attempted to put
the case on any other ground, for in his speech to-night he
had not stated any abstract or insurmountable objection to the
establishment of those institutions in IrelAd, but he had, on
the contrary, declared that he would be favourable to any other
measure with that object provided that the safety of the Estab-
lished Church in Ireland were assured. Thu 3 the Noble
Lord seemed to admit that he looked forward to the possibi-
lity that the time might come when these institutions might
be safely extended to the people of Ireland. Now, he (Mr.
Woulfe) would be glad to know when the Noble Lord thought
this result might be likely to take place? What state of
things did he contemplate as leading to that result When
would he consider the Church of Ireland safe? What state
of the Church would that be which would make it secure in
the eyes of the Noble Lord ? Would it be when the people
of Ireland were quite content with the Established Church
there ? If that was the anticipation of the Noble Lord,
Honourable Members around him had already assured him
that his expekations could not possibly bo realised, for
they told the House and the country that they were con-
vinced that the Roman Catholic people of Ireland never would
be reconciled to the Church, nor satisfied until they had sub-
verted it.—(Hear.) It was assumed that there were circum-
stances in the state of Ireland rendering the Irish urban popu-
lation unfit to receive the institutions enjoyed by their bre-
ren in England and Scotland. He could see no differences
but such as were differences of detail, worthy to have been
discussed in Committee, but not with reference to the prin-
ciple of the Bill. Differences there no doubt might be, and
were ; and there were as great differences between the Corpo-
rations of England and Scotland—differences of detail merely.
The principle was what they had to look to—the broad prin-
ciple of popular self-government. If that principle were an
unsound one, it affected the whole of the measure ; but all ob-
jections founded upon other grounds, could affect the details
only. No pretence, indeed, of the kind would, as he had
before said, have been set up had not the fact been that
the great majority of the people of Ireland were Roman
Catholics. Were they Protestants no man would discover
any such objection to granting them the same privileges
with their English and Scotch brethren.--( Hear.) He (Mr.
Woulfe) was anxious to see the Union maintained ; but he
would not disguise from himself that to establish a different
Government in Ireland on account of the religion of the in-
habitants would be to sow the seeds of a re-agitation of the
question of a Repeal. It was not for a moment contended
that a Roman Catholic might not make as worthy a mayor or
as good an alderman as a Protestant. Then how was the re-
ligion of the people affected by this argument ? Why, it was
said that these corporate institutions would carry with them
power and influence to the people, and the Roman Catholics
being admitted to the majority in the towns they would of
necessity acquire the greater portion of the political powers
power which it was assumed they would use for the purpose of
increasing the dangers of the Protestant Establishment. He ad-
mitted that the people would acquire a new influence, that these
Corporations when established would have the effect of quicken-
ing public opinion, of making it authentic, self-derived, and, if
he might so express it, racy of the soil. He admitted this,
and that the majority of power would necessarily follow the
ratio of numbers, wealth, and intelligence. He admitted that
the Roman Catholics would acquire additional power ; but
what then ? Had not the rest of the empire acquired addi-
tional power but recently by the very same argument he
would now use on behalf of the Roman Catholic ? He denied
that by increasing the power of the people they should en-
danger the Church ; but, on the other hand, he confidently
asserted that the denial of their equal rights would be infi-
nitely more calculated to produce ultimate evil to the country.
Exasperating the feelings of the people was, of all others,
the way most calculated to place the Church in danger. The
Church of Ireland, it should not be forgotten, was the richest
Church in the poorest country, and with the smallest congre-
gation, in the known world, and that fsct alone ought to have
some weight with the friends of the Establishment.—( Hear. )
He would rest this measure on the arguments that were used
in favour of the Bill of 1829, and say that more safety would
be obtained for the Church by imparting power largely to the
people than by withholding it from them. The exist-
ence of the Catholic Association was dwelt on by the
Right Honourable Baronet opposite as a circumstance
which rendered the Bill of 1829 indispensable. That body
was represented as one which was beyond the reach of all
law, but it seemed to have been forgotten that the same Asso-
ciation had arisen again, though under another name. —( Hear).
If they defeated this measure they would find just as much dif-
ficulty in competing with the present Association as with the
former, and consequently, as the circumstances were unaltered,
they were now bound to abide by the policy which induced
them to pass the Bill of 1829. Another argument on which
the Right Hon. Baronet then dwelt was, that the opinion of the
majority of the people, not only of Ireland but of England and
Scotland, wac in favour of the Catholic claims ; and could not
lie (Mr. Woulfe) now say, with equal fairness, that the senti-
ments of the majority, not only of the Members of that House
but of the people in the three kingdoms, were in favoar of this
measure ?—( Hear.) He would admit that the majority of the
House of Lords were opposed to this Bill, as they had been
to the measure of 1829; but still, as both measures were
founded on the same principles, he could not understand the
grounds on which this Bill was now to be rejected. The
Right Hon. Baronet had also used another argument in fa-
vour of the measure of 1829; and that was, that it would be
utterly impossible to form an Administration that would be
unanimous in opposidg the Catholic claims. He should like to
know whether this same argument was not as applic-
able to 1837 as it had been to 1829? He believed that an
Administration hostile to the present measure could not now
be formed—(Hear, hear)—and this he thought was evi-
denced by the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for
North Lancashire, who, though the advocate of temporary
exclusion, did not go any such length as to say that he
would support perpetual exclusion. The Noble Lord said,
" So soon as I see the situation of the Church secured
then I shall be ready to grant Corporations to the Irish
people." Was it likely that such a policy as this would
tend to the pacification of Ireland? He thought not, and
therefore he was disposed to believe that the safest course
they could pursue would be to follow the principle laid down
in the Bill of 1829. The Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire had objected that the form of oath contained in the
Bill of 1829 was not embraced in this measure. This was a
new objection. It must be recollected that this Bill was
brought in three years ago, and that from that period down to
the present time no such objection as that now taken by the
Noble Lord had been raised against it. Ho (Mr. Woulfe)
did not, however, regard it as a valid objection, but he still
had no hesitation in saying that if such a wish had been ex-
pressed to the framers of the Bill, they would at once have
acceded to it. He trusted that the House would not refuse to
read this Bill a third time, and he did so because he felt con-
vinced that its rejection would only be the forerunner of a
state of things which 'you'd involve not only Ireland, but the
empire at large, in lasting difficulties.—( Loud cries of " Di-
vide, divide.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER next rose
to address the House, but he was unable to proceed for some
minutes, owing to loud and general cries of " Divide, divide,"
which followed his rising. The Right Hon. Gentleman ob-
served that the real proposition which they were called on to
decide was, whether this Bill should be read a third time or
not. It was now on all hands admitted that the present Cor-
porations of Ireland were so corrupt that they ought not to
continue, and in proof of this they had in the last session passed
a Bill on the ground that they were so trustworthless that they
ought not to be permitted to dispose of their own property, and
yet what was the proposition which was now made? Why it
was in effect that they should leave Ireland still subject to
these corrupt Corporations.—( Hear.) It was admitted that
the present system was exclusive, and it was said that the
system which this measure proposed would be equally so. He
denied the fact; but he would admit it for the sake of argu-
ment, and say that, even admitting the hypothesis of the lion.
Gentlemen opposite, the exclusiveness in the one case applied
only to a small minority, while in the other it applied to the
majority, because the object of this Bill was to give power
and privileges, not to a minority, but to the great mass of
the Irish people.—( Hear. ) The question was, were they
prepared to continue the existing Corporations of Ireland,
or had the Right Hon. Gentleman ti►e Recorder of Dublin,
or any other Hon. Member opposite, ventured to stand up in