The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVEIstING, IVIARCEI 14, 1861

_
Sir G, GREY said he was not at all surprised that his
hon. and gallant friend had brought this subject under the
consideration of the house. There could be no doubt that
on Saturday last there was a very groat obstruction to the
progress of the Royal carriages through the city of London,
and he had felt it his duty to write to the Lord Mayor to
call his attention to the subject, and to remind him that the
route was fixed, and her Majesty's consent given to that
route being adopted on the distinct understanding that most
effectual means should be taken to prevent confusion, and
that he received an assurance from the City authorities that
their arrangements were adequate to that purpose. There
was no doubt that on the whole route from the Bricklayers'
Arms to London-bridge, and again from Temple-bar to Pad-
dington, although a vast multitude of people assembled
there was not the slightest delay or obstruction, but no
sooner did the procession pass on to London-bridge than a
delay of 20 minutes took place. Again, a considerable delay
took place at the Mansion -house, and he was informed by
several gentlemen who witnessed the passing of the proces-
sion, that there appeared to be an abscence of authority to
give directions to the police and to render that assistance
which it was in their power to give. He had called on the
Lord Mayor to furnish him with a return of the number of
police employed on the occasion, and the details of the ar-
rangements. He deeply regretted that these obstructions
took place, because they were the only circumstances which
in the slightest degree lessened the effect or marred the
splendour of the cordial and enthusiastic reception accorded
to the Prince of Wales and the Princess Alexandra by the
metropolis that day. The Lord Mayor bad stated that as-
sistance was not offered by the metropolitan police, nor by
the military authorities. No, he was informed that the
military authorities did offer assistance, and that that as-
sistance was absolutely refused ; but, with great difficulty
the City authorities were persuaded to admit into the City a
few mounted artillery, who were very useful. 'With regard
to the metropolitan police force, he might state what was
the law upon the subject. The law gave the City autho-
rities absolute power to remove all obstructions from the
streets, especially on occasions of public processions, and
the metropolitan police could only be employed in the City
on the request of the Lora Mayor. Sir Richard Mayne
positively assured him that on the 28th February he attended
the meeting of the City reception committee, and that he
then offered to take charge of Fleet-street, that he informed
them of clauses in the act, and that he reminded them that
on the occasion of the Emperor of the French visiting the
City the metropolitan police absolutely took charge of the
streets from Tereple-bar to St. Pauli. e believed that
the difficulty arose from an over-confidence in the efficiency
of the police. That efficiency he considered was ample for
all ordinary duties, but it was insufficient to meet an extra-
ordinary occasion such as that which occurred on Saturday
last. He thought it would be wrong merely from what oc-
curred on Saturday to say at once that there should be an
amalgamation of the City with the metropolitan force. He
entirely agreed as to the expediency of the amalgamation,
No doubt it was a great anomaly that in the centre of the
metropolitan district there should be a separate jurisdiction.
It was an inconvenience not only manifest on one occasion,
but might arise on others. He thought that some alteration
of the law was necessary, in order to give the Government
for the time being, concurrently with the City authorities,
power to take precautions for the purpose of keeping order
in the City on such occasions. With regard to the bodies
of metropolitan police which came through the City from
the eastward to do duty in the west, and were said to have
caused an obstruction, ho had no information ; but ho did
not see how they could have created an obsttuction on Lot-
don-bridge. The arrangements certainly failed to ensure
that success which it was desired they should secure, but he
had no doubt that the experience of the past would enable
them to improve their arrangements in the future and pre-
vent a repetition of such scenes as had occurred. He had
no information except from public sources as to the fatal
accidents which occurred at the illuminations, end he was
not prepared to say that any one was to blame for those
deaths. He believed that they occurred at two places in
the City, owing to the enormous pressure ; bat he doubted
whether it was practicable for the police to ensure absolute
safety for persons going into great crowds. At the same
time, every precaution should be taken on occasions like
that to prevent such occurrences. He might say that he
was commanded by her Majesty to communicate the deep
grief and concern with which she had read in the papers
the account of their deaths, and she had desired him to ex-
press her sympathy with the families of the sufferers, and
to have an inquiry made into their circumstances.
Mr. Alderman SID NEY thought it unfair that advan-
tage should be taken of the occurrence of Saturday last to
inveigh against the police of the City. If it had not been for
this, the area at the disposal of the sightseers would have
been much extended, and there would have been no over.
crowding in London. They all remembered the popular story
—a horse, for want of a nail, fell into the hands of the
enemy. Now it happened that on Saturday last a gallant
colonel, animated by a desire for popularity, instead of con-
tenting himself by a route of 420 yards, extended his route
to about 2,000 yards, and it was owing to this cause alone
the police regulations in the City broke down. The City
authorities had proved themselves on all occasion, good ad-
ministrators, and had always chosen the most efficient men
for the discharge of public duties. The great defect was that
too many of the police force had been concentrated under
one head. Ifthheeard evilof Tower Hamlets, Westminster, Maryle-
bone*and other places in the metropolis were erected into
municipalitiesthen be
twhoeulunddbuee
concentration
ti(ooaho.
f)
tNheopmoloicere
would
force. The noble lord said that the spectators were not a mob
—that there was not amen in the streets who was not will-
ing to render assistance in preserving order. Was not this
a proud testimony to the authorities of the City of London?
(No, no, and laughter.) He thought it a proof of the popu-
larity of the ruling powers inithe City of London that there
was not a single manifestation of ill-humour throughout
the vast multitude assembled. He sincerely deplored the
breaking down of the arrangements on Saturday last, but

it was a matter which the House of Commons ought not to
make too much of. (Hear, bear)
Tot d ELCHO asked the Secretary ot State for War by
whose authority an official paragraph recently appeared in
the gimes newspaper, complaining that the space of ground
railed off in Hyde-park for the volunteers on Saturday last
ties unnecessarily great. Whether it was with his sanction
and knowledge that the paragraph in question was pub
lished : and whether, in the opinion of the Secretary of
State for War, the space so enclosed was greater than was
required for the necessary mancevres which had to be per-
farmed by the volunteers on the occasion of the passage of
the Royal procession through the park. It was the wish of
great numbers of the volunteers to make a loyal demonstra-
tion on Saturday last, and her Majesty having acceded to
that wish great numbers or volunteers assembled in Hyde-
park. The volunteers occupied a very small space in pro-
portion to their numbers. This was the opinion of General
Rumley. The paragraph to which he (Lord Elcho) re-
ferred seemed to have an official character about it, and as
it reflected unjustly on the War-office and the volunteers it
was hardy likely to have emanated from the Secretary of
War or the Secretary for the Home Department. It was
likely the paragraph emanated from Sir R. Mayne himself,
and if so he had certainly forgot his position, and exceeded
his duty. If there was to be a volunteer demonstration it
was right that ample space should be allowed their ma-
noeuvres. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he had been informed by Sir R.
Mayne that the paragraph in question was furnished by
him. He (sir G. C. Lewis) believed that the arrangements
in Hyde-park for the volunteers were carefully made by his
Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge and Sir R. Mayne.
The latter having communicated with General Rumley was
informed by him that no more room was assigned to volun-
teers than was necessary. He (Sir G. C. Lewis) regretted
to find that any misunderstanding on the subject had taken
place.
Lord HOTHAM said he had met, on his way down to the
house that day, Sir R. Mayne in the streets, and was asked
by him whether he had seen the notice of the noble lord
(Elcho), from which he (Sir R, Mayne) anticipated that an
attack would be made on him, and requested him (Lord
Hotham) not to defend him, but merely to state the part
which he had taken on the occasion. It was the custom on
occasions of this description for the police to be charged with
the duty of keeping the streets, and it was confided to Sir R.
Mayne to make the necessary arrangements for the recent
procession—not only for the streets but for the park. In the
latter place he caused to be marked out a space sufficient
for the royal procession, and also for the volunteers, It was
also arrasged that the volunteers were not to occupy a single
inch of ground that might interfere with the gratification of
the loyal population of the metropolis who would be pre-
sent. These arrangements had been made on Friday. On
Friday night Sir R. Mayne received information that the
military authorities were making different arrangements ;
that they were taking a much larger space, and issuing
tickets of admission for intended occupants. On going to
the park on Saturday morning he was astonished to find
that a vastly larger space had been set off for the volunteers
than had been originally intended, and that the result would
be to deprive thousands of an opportunity of seeing the pro-
cession. The noble lord (Lord Elcho) said no more space
was taken than was necessary for the manoeuvres of the
volunteers. But it was not a review day. (Hear, hear.) The
volunteers were merely there to show, like others, their
loyalty. (Hear, hear.) According to the noble lord, the vo-
lunteers must be wanting in discipline if they could not
take up their position in the ample space assigned them by
Sir R. Mayne.
Lord ELCHO said he attributed nothing to the volunteers
but what had been attributed by the general in command,
Lord HOTHAM said the noble lord and his well-ap
pointed corps could pass, and he could not fail to observe,
also, how a battalion of the Grenadier Guards, to which he
(Lord Hotham) once belonged, came down Pall-mall and
took up their positions on each side of the street without
any inconvenience to the public. They did not require 120
yards in width to execute their manoeuvres. He had heard
it stated as a reason why so much ground was wanted for
the volunteers was, that they were to march past, Whom
were they to march past? The precession had gone on.
Lord ELCHO—The general in command. (Lsughter.)
Lord HOTHAM was sure that General Rumley would
not expect them to do any such thing. (Hear, hear.) When
Sir R. Mayne observed cn Saturday morning the alterations
that had Leen made, he immediately suspended one of his
officers for allowing, at the bidding of a staff officer, the
first arrangements to be departed from without communi-
cating with him (Sir R. Mayne). With respect to the
paragraph in The Times, it was said by the noble lord that
it was wrong for an official to send communications of the
kind to the newspapers. Nothing, however, was more com-
mon than for hon. members to do so, and even members of
the Government frequently communicated public papers to
the press before they were furnished to members of the house.
Let him further say, there was not the slightest soreness on
the part of Sir Richard Mayne in consequence of anything
that might be done with his orders. His noble friend, as
usual on such occasions, said that arrangements should be
made by the War Office and the Horse Guards. That might
be so, but if Sir Richard Mayne had been informed by his
hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department
that to Hyde-park he need pay no attention, he could say,
on the part of Sir Richard Mayne, that if it had been proper
for him so to speak, with the plain freedom of the Secretary
of State, he would have said, " I am very much obliged to
you, because then I shall have many more police to put on
elsewhere." But inasmuch as no communication had been
made to him, he felt it his duty, until informed to the con-
trary by the right hon. baronet, to act as he had always
done on similar occasions. Lest there should be any mistake
as to what he (Lord Hotham) had stated, he would read,
word for word, a letter which Sir Richard Mayne had ad-
dressed to a gentleman connected with the Times newspaper.
which his noble friend had made the basis of his motion,
from which his noble friend and the house would see by
what feeling Sir Richard Mayne was actuated, and the
desire he had to show that he was not in fault, and that he
regretted that better arrangements had not been made. Sir
Richard Mayne wrote in this manner :—" With reference
to the very just observations in the Times' report of this
morning (page 11) of the people being kept at too great a dis-
tance from the line of procession in Hyde-park, and as re-
gards the police interfering for that purpose, it was contrary
to my express order, and I have suspended the superinten-
dent who had charge of that part of the line, although he
pleaded in extenuation that he acted ut,on the urgent
demand of a staff officer, that he should place the police at
the distance along the hurdles. My intention was that so
much ground only should be occupied as would allow room
for the Royal cortege and the columns of the volunteers at
the side. I was much annoyed on coming into the park to
fled that the police had acted contrary to my orders, the
effect being to deprive the people of all sight of the Princess,
and to deprive the Royal party of the joyous cheering which
had been heard elsewhere at every paint. I never witnessed
smell continued and hearty exclamations of Welcome' as
were given on Saturday by the countless multitude of all
classes, from the Borough along the whole route. You
may take any notice you may think proper of the arrange-
ments in the Park," That was all that was written by Sir
Richard Mayne. (Cheers.) He (Lord Hotham) had no other
object in view than that which actuated other hon. mem-
bers of that house; that when an individual was attacked.
be he high or low, when aspersions had been unjustly cast
upon him, that he should have an opportunity of his case
being stated, and showing that his cause had been just.
However in other matters the House of Commons was in..
fluenced by political feeling, in a case of truth and justice
between man and man, the House of Commons would not,
he believed, go wrong. (Loud cheers.)
Sir G. GREY expressed his deep regret that there should
have been any conflicting orders between the civil and
military departments on this occasion, and he must a'so re-
gret that his noble !Hand had brought the subject forward.
The fact was that Sir R. Mayne was actuated by the desire,
which did him the greatest credit, that the arrangements
under his directions should be such as to afford every pos-
sible opportunity to the surging multitudes to witness the
Royal procession. (Hear.) The military authorities seem
to have taken a different view of the occasion, so far as
the procession was concerned. He and Sir Richard Mayne
understood with regard to the volunteers that they should
form a line through which the Royal procession should
pass, allowing a certain space behind to which the
public might be admitted and obtain a compara-
tively near view of the proceedings. The mili-
tary authorities appeared to have considered it as a
parade ground and review, and they therefore thought it
required a much larger space. He was sorry that the mis-
understanding occurred, and that there should not have
been better previous concert. With reference to all future
public exhibitions effectual means would be taken to prevent
any such misunderstanding. He was very sorry that such
a misunderstanding had occurred, but it arose from a desire
of both parties to do what t hey considered their duty.
The subject then dropped.
CHINA.

Colonel SYKES asked the Under-Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether the Government would communi-
cate to the house any further papers, in continuation of
those of the session of 1862, respecting the progress of
affairs in China, particularly in regard to the recent mutiny
of the drilled Chinese troops under Gen. Burgcvine ; the
accusation of treason and robbery against that officer; his
removal from his command, and the issue of a proclamation
by the Footae of Shanghai offering a reward of 20,000 dole.
for his head ; the appointment of Captain Holland, of the
Royal Marines, by Major-General Stavaley, commanding
the British force at Shanghai, to the temporary command ;
the refusal of the Chinese troops to accept him as their com-
mander ; and any information of the proceedings of Capt.
Dew, R.N., at Ningpo.
THE POPE AND MR. ODO RUSSELL.
Mr. STIRLING called the attention of the house to a
portion of the correspondence relating to the affairs of Rome,
and asked the Under-Secretary ot State for Foreign Affairs
whether there was any objection to lay upon the table a
copy of the despatch of Mr. Odo Russell, or of a part of it,
re porting those words of the Pope during their conversation
on the 26th July, 1862, which led to Eal I Russell's despatch
ot the 25th of October, and the suggestion that the Pope
should retire to Malta. The hon, member said he was in-
, dnced to take the present course in consequence of the dif-
ferent versions which were given of what had taken place
during the conversation between the Pope and Mr. Odo
Russell. Earl Rtueell had characterised the French ver-

sion of the affair as entirely inaccurate ; but the French
papers, though hating no liberty in anything else, were
allowed by the Government to amuse their readers by re-
peating the French account of the " incident Odo Rus-
sell." They all knew that the French Minister for
Foreign Affairs hid the press of that country entirely un
der his authority, and that he could extinguish it if he
pleased ; he was, in short, the sub-editor of the French
press, responsible to nobody but the Emperor, who was
the editor-in-chief. (Hear.) It appeared to him that the
original despatch from Mr. Odo Russell would throw light
on the matter, and set at rest the misapprehensions which
now prevailed. He would not ask the hcn. gentleman to
give the whole of the despatch, as parts of it might be con-
fidential, but the portion relating to the interview with the
Pope

OUTRAGES IN JAPAN.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR rose to call the attention of the
house to recent occurrences in Japan, and to move for
papers ; and said he was justified in doing so from the con-
tinued outrages and murders which had been committed by
the Japanese. In 1860 they had attacked two Dutch cap-
tains ; in 1861 they made an attack on the American Secre-
tary of Legation; and in 1862 they murdered Mr. Richard-
son. Capt. Neild wrote some months ago for instructions
how to act under those accumulated grievances, and those
who had relations in that country were anxious to know if
the Government intended to take any steps to prevent re-
petitions of those lamentable circumstances. The feeling of
the British merchants in Japan was that the Foreign-office
did not take sufficient care in the selection of their agents in
that country, and they believed that gentlemen might be
found capable of opening up our relations with Japan, and
at the same time conduct themselves like Christian Eng-
lish gentlemen. Col. Neild had had no Eastern experience.
He joined the liberating army in Portugal in 1832, and was
for 30 years afterwards in Turkey, when suddenly he found
himself appointed by the Foreign-office to China, and then
to Japan. The hon. member urged that men better ac-
quainted with the East and the manners of the people might
have been found for the consular duties at Japan. It was
useless to attempt to reduce the army and navy estimates
whilst men, from their ignorance of the people amongst
whom they were sent, were likely to embroil us inwars that

might cost millions.
Mr. LAYARD said that all the papers in the possession
of the Foreign. office with regard to China had been laid
upon the table of the house. Ho had no information rela-
tive to the offer of 20,000 dols. for Gen. Burgovine's head,
and expressed his opinion that the hon. and gallant gentle-
man (Col. Sykes) relied more on private correspondence,
which was likely to mislead him, than on the papers fur-
nished to the house by the Foreign-office. He was unable
to give him more information than had been already sup-
plied. He was sorry he could not comply with the request
of the hon. member for erth, with reference to Mr. Odo
Russell's conversation with the Pope, on account of its
being contrary to the usual custom. What took place be-
tween Mr. Odo Russell and the Pope relative to an asylum
being offered to him in Malta was correctly reported in Mr.
Odo Russell's despatch of January, which was printed
amongst the papers relating to that subject that had been
laid before Parliament. It was true that French news-
papers had contradicted the account given by Mr. Odo
Russell, but ho (Mr. Layard) was convinced of the truth of
Mr. Odo Russell's st-tement. He knew not what th press
might say, but the utmost reliance might be placed, upon
the words of an English gentleman—(hear)—especially that
of a public servant so able, honourabe, and conscientious
as Mr. Odo Russell. (Hear, hear.) That gentleman had
never been recalled. He came to England on leave of ab-
sence, and on his return to Rome Earl Russell took the op-
portunity of furnishing him with the despatch, a copy of
which had been laid upon the table. The hon. member for
Poole had been misinformed with regard to Mr. Morrison.
That gentleman was not sent home to England to have his
conduct investigated, His health had buffered from a consi-
derable residence in Japan, and he came home in cause-
quence. It was quite true that numerous charges had been
made against him in the Singapore papers of a serious cha-
racter, affecting him both as a consul and as a gentleman.
When they were brought to the attention of the Foreign-
Office a full inquiry was instituted, which resulted in that
gentleman's entire acquittal. It was true that Mr. Morrison
did strike a Japanese, which met with the disapprobation of
her Majesty's Government, and a request that on his re-
turn he would be more careful in his future dealings
with, and his treatment of, the natives. At the same
time he must say that Mr. Morrison was one of the
ablest public servants in the East ; he was perfectly
acquainted with his duties, and had obtained the entire ap-
proval of the British residents in Japan. In consequence
of the barbarous 'nuttier of Mr. Richardson, Government
had sent out instructions to our consular agent to obtain full
satisfaction for that outrage ; but, as they could not yet
have been carried into execution, he could not with pro-
priety lay them on the table of the house. He defended the
consular appointments by Earl Russell ; and with regard to
Colonel Neild, on the showing of the hon. member for
Poole, Colonel Neild had had thirty years' experience in
the East before he was sent to China. Colonel Neild had
very efficiently discharged his duties, and had shown that
the noble earl was justified in ns .king the appointment. A
misunderstanding did at one time exist between Colonel
Neild and the British merchants in Japan, but he was
happy to say it had been amicably arranged.
Sir G. BOWYER rose to correct a mistake trade by the
Under- Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in stating that
the Holy Father asked if he would be allowed an asylum in
Malta if circumstances necessitated it. What the de-
spatches stated referred to an asylum in England, and not
in Malta. Ho reminded the house that at the time the
alleged conversation took place, viz., when Garibaldi was
in arms and Italy was in a very unsettled state, and this
conversation was nothing more than a random expression
by the Pope when Mr. Odo Russell was leaving the room,
which had been mistaken and misapprehended, much in the
same manner as the conversation of the Speaker with a
member of the house which gave rise to the report last year
that the Speaker would shoot in a rifle match with the Lord
Chancellor. (Laughter.) He had teen informed that since
the report of this incident Mr. Ode Rus,ell had been placed
in a less desirable position in Rome than before, and he
asked the Under Foreign Secretary if there was any truth
in the report.
Mr. LAYARD said it was a slip of the tongue in using
Malta for London. With regard to Mr, Odo Russell, that
gentleman was as popular in Rome and as much liked there
as ever.

Mr. H. RUSSE ,L, who spoke in so low a tone that he
was scarcely audible in the gallery, defended his brother
Mr. Odo Russell, from the charge of inaccuracy relative to
his conversation with the Pope. The Vatican was alarmed
at that time at what was going on in Italy from Garibaldi's
movements and oth-r circumstances. Our agent in Rome
was in a position of great difficulty, not having there the
ro .operation of Frenoh agents, as was the case in other parts
the world. In Rome our policy was opposed to that of
France. In Italy we wished to see the national ind<pen-
denee established, and the deliverance of Rome irons fo-
reign occupation, whilst France desired to perpetuate the
temporal power of the Pope and the occupation of Rome by
French troops. (Hear, hear.) He advised the English
Government to have as little as possible to do with the Pope
—(hear)—and let him and the other Powers get out of
their difficulties as best they cool i. (Hear, hear.) He could
assure the hon. member for Dundalk that his brother's posi-
tion was not changed in Rome is consequence of what had
transpired.
The house then went into committee of supply.
THE ARMY ES rIMA.TES.
On the first vote,
General PEEL took some technical objections to the
form of the estimates, and was understood to complain that
when Indian troops were employed upon Imperial service
—as, for example, on operations in China—the responsi-
bility of the Rouse of Commons over that branch of the
military expenditure was not made sufficiently manifest.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Sir G.
C. LEWIS offered explanations as to the points raised by
the right hon. gentleman.
After some further discussion, in which General Peel,
Sir G. C. Lewis, and Mr. T. G. aring took part,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained that there was a charge
of £600,000 more this year than last, although there were
4,160 less men. 'the question of the cost of defending the
colonies was one which ought to be seriously considered
It was now proposed to vote 45,000 men snore than Lord
Aberdeen's Government had required, the pay of which
amounted to £4,000,000, according to the gallant general's
calculation.'
Gen. PEEL said his calculation of £lOO per man covered
all military expenditure.
Colonel SYKES said there would always be an open fluc-
tuating account between the Imperial and The Indian Go-
vernments so long as Indian troops were employed out of
India. They ought not to be so employed without the con-
sent of the House of Commons.
After a few brief explanations by Sir G. C. LEWIS to
Sir F. Baring, Mr. Berkeley, and Lord W. Graham, upon
minor details,
Lord R. CECIL objected generally to the magnitude of
the entire vote, and gave a statement whieh be said was the
relative cost of the English and other European armies.
England was £93 15s per man ; France, £34 7s ; Sardinia,
£3O ; Spain, £2B 12s ; Portueal, £2B Is ; the German
States, £lB 12s; and Denmark, £l2 12s.
Sir G. LEWIS interrupted the noble lord to say, that
the English figure was obtained by dividing the whole vote
for the army by the number of men. Unless the noble lord
could show that his totals were found by the same method
of calculation those comparisons were valueless. (Hear.)
It was customary with foreign Governments to charge half
pay, pensions, &c., to a separate account.
Lord R. CECIL then referred to the fact that the total
cost of the English army of 148,242 men was, after deduct-
ing militia and navy stores, £BB per man, while in France
it was but £36 ss. 10d. (Hoar, hear.) At the French rate,
after making all deductions, we could save £9 14s. per man
or d. in the pound on the income tax. (Hear, hear.) He
particularly censured the heavy expenses for the non-com-
batant departments. If a reduction was to be made, and it
would soon, let it be there, and not iu the number of men,
leaving us as we were when the Crimean war broke out,
with no army, and compelled to send out mere boys to die
in the trenches. (Hear.) The difference between the two
central administrations was still more startling. The cost of
the English central administration made for a service of
148,000 men was £182,000; the cost of the French central

administration made for a service of 400,000 men was
£76,000. (Hear, hear.) The proportion per man under the
English system was £l4s. Bd. ; the French proportion per
man was 3s. 10d. (Hear, hear.) In England they paid six
times as much to their clerks and employes in the War-office
as was paid under the French system. The right hon. gen-
tleman would probably tell him that the institutions of the
two countries were entirely different, and that intellectual
wages in England were more than in France. That was
true enough, as he understood the national characteristics;
they paid more wages to an Englishman, but he did twice
as much work ; but the peculiarity of the War-office was,
the while they paid their clerks treble as much as was
paid in France, these clerks did not do half as much
work. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) With regard to war-
like stores, the department in which the right hon. gen-
tleman struck off a million at a blow, thus creating mag-
nificent ruins in order to enable them to judge of the
more magnificent structure he had left, the proportion in
military stores per man in England was £7 10s. 3d. ; the
proportion per man in France was 16s. 2d.. (Hear, hear.)
If they managed the stores in this country with the name
degree of economy as in France, they might effect a saving
in this vote alone of £994,000. Of course, they could not
expect the right hon. gentleman, against whom he made no
charge whatever, to take the initiative in military reform.
The blame did not rest with the right hon. gentleman, but
with the system. They could not expect to cure the evil

by parings here and there, but by recasting a vicious orga
nisation. While prosperity lasted, there might be some
plea set up for allowing the clerks to enjoy their places;
but bad times were coming upon the country ; their prin-
cipal inaustry had suffered a blow from which it had not
recovered, and he apprehended they would feel still more
hereafter the effects of what was taking place on the
American continent. (Hear, hear.) He was entirely un-
favourable to any reduction of the army, but if they could
relieve the tax-payer by reducing the cost of the army,
while they maintained its efficiency, they would direct the
national call for economy which was getting up into a
useful channel, and alleviate private distress without per-
manent injury to the interests of the country. (Cheers.)
Sir H. VERNEY said the conclusion to which the noble
lord's remarks pointed was the amalgamation of the War-
office and the Horse-guards; but while he said this he did
not mean to deny there were many points touched upon by
the noble lord to which the Government might profitably
direct their attention.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said, some years ago he had been in-
duced to make a comparison somewhat like that with
which the noble lord had favoured them; but, however
interesting the comparison might prove as a matter of
statistical study, he found it was barren of any prac-
tical results. The circumstances of the two countries
were so different; the French army was ferreed by con-
scription, the English army by voluntary recruiting. Tue
rates of wages were diff, rent in the two countries—the sys-
tems of finance were different. The French budget was
made two or three years in advance, and was prepared on a
system of allowing only ordinary expenditure, but there
were extraordinary credits which did not appear in the re-
gular returns of expenditure. The noble lord did not want
to reduce the army, nor the pay of the army—so far they
ware agreed. What, he wished to see done was to have the
wages of the artificers and the pay of the clerks reduced.
(Hear) But the Government could not, reduce the pay of
the artificers at Woolwich, as the rates were rege lewd by
the state of the market ; and if the noble lord advocated
the reduction of the wages of the clerks in the War-office,
he should be prepared to apply the same rule to the clerks
in the Home• office, the Treasury, and the whole of the civil
service departments. The Government had reduced the
army within as narrow limits as were consistent with the
exigencies of the public service ; and as it was with the pay
of the army they were dealing, he trusted the committee
would agree to the amount without going into matters irre-
levant to the vote.
Col. DICKSON said the noble lord particularly guarded
himself against any diminution in the pay of the soldiers,
and attributed the excesses in the estimates to mismanage••
meat of the expense of the non-combatant partof our army.
In that he cordially concurred, and he should at the proper
time show that there were in the estimates an enormous
expenditure beyond what was required. He believed a
great portion of the money was wasted in the War-office.
Military men did more in the working of the army depart-
ment in France than in England, and he instanced the
saving thereby effected in the clothing department of the
French army.
Major O'REILLY said it was no unusual circumstance
for extra budgets to be presented in this country, as was
done in France. The less expense of the French army had
been attributed to the conscription, but on examination he
was surprised to find there was so little difference in the cost
of the English and French armies. The pay and food of an
English infantry soldier was 13d. a day, that of a French in-
fantry soldier 10d. and in some instances 11d. The food and
pay of an English cavalry soldier was 16d. a day, and that
of a French cavalry soldier 13}d; but he did not attribute
the whole of that difference to the system of conscription.
The cost of wages to artificers were much lower in England
than in France.
Mr. P. URQUHART concurred in the remarks of the
noble lord the member for Stamford.
Mr. FORSTER considered the Secretary of State for
War had not answered the statements made by the noble
lord. He wished for further inquiry on the subject.
Sir G. C. LEWIS asked the noble lord to more clearly
explain what he meant by the nen-combatant part of the
army. _ _

Lord R. CECIL said all except the pay and pensions
He wished to prove that to economise the army estimates ii
was not necessary to reduce the number and pay of the
army. but the other expenses attending them. (Hear.)
The vote, however, was ultimately agreed to.
On the vote of £1,223,936 for commissariat establish-
ments, movement of troops, &c.,
Mr. MILLS moved its reduction by £80,424 for the com-
missariat and transport of troops in the colonies. He con-
sidered that the colonies could bear a larger proportion of
the expenses of their defence than they now did. (Hear,
hear.) He disclaimed any desire to dismember our colo-
nies ; but he considered that, as this country was suffer-
ing from a special pressure, it was desirable to test
whether the house was prepared to give due notice to the
colonies that they must be called upon to bear their
proper proportion towards the expenditure for their de
fence. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS said it was impossible to agree to the
amendment. Such an amendment, it carried, would not
be binding on the colonies. It must be done by Act of Par-
liament; and then came the question how far that house
could tax the colonies. If the colonies were to contribute
the amount objected to, it must be the first voted by the
house, and any sum raised by colonies towards it must
be set off against it. To strike out this amount, without a
previous understanding with the colonies, would be perilous
to the public service; and, so far as the troops in the colo-
nies were concerned, the greatest inconvenience would
ensue therefrom.
Mr. CHILDERS said that the commissariat expenditure
upon the colonies proper was £300,000, and it certainly was
no very extravagant proposal to make the colonists them-
selves contribute one-fourth of that amount. The cost of
the tro )ps at the Mauritius was £151.000, and of that sum
only £IO,OOO was paid by the colonists. Now, the finances
of the island were in a most flourishing condition, and
therefore the Government might very well exact a much
larger contribution towards the maintenance of the garri-
son. In the same way Ceylon cost them 150,000 a year ;
and, as Ceylon was rich, she ought to contribute more than
she did for the maintenance of the troops. The Cape was
not perhaps so well able as the two colonies he had just
mentioned to make a large contribution; still, as her
finances were being retrieved, she might very well pay more
than £ 10,000 out of the £40,000 which was the total cost of
the troops stationed at the Cape.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE reminded the committee that
the rule invariably acted upon was, that when troops
were moved about in a colony for merely police purposes,
the expense of their transport must be borne by the colonial
revenue. But the vote against which the amendment was
directed was for the purpose of supplying the troops with
their daily food and forage. With respect to the Mauritius
and Ceylon, he could inform the committee that the Colonial
Secretary, after a most searching inquiry into the subject,
had determined to prepare the governors of those colonies
to receive requhiticns for a considerably increased contri-
bution towards the maintenance of the troops quartered
there. With respect, however, to the Cape, the case was
not quite so easy, on accound of the peculiar danger to which
the settlers there were exposed, and which had necessitated,
for a long period, the maintenance of so large a force in the
colony. At the same time the number of the troops sta-
tioned at the Cape had been recently greatly reduced ; so
much so, that there were now only 4,000 men in the colony,
against 8,000 not very long ago. Their objets at the Cape
was to encourage the augmentation of the border police—a
force much more capable of encountering the wariike tribes
than the regular troops were. He was happy to say that
force was being gradually increased ; and as the increase
went on it would be possible still further to diminish the
number of the troops, and in that way, and in that way
alone, to diminish the military expenditure on account of
the colony.
Mr. ROEBUCK warned the committee that a great prin-
ciple underlaid the question now before them. It appeared to
him to be a portion of the Imperial power of England that the
Home Government should have complete control over the
movements of the army. Well, if the expense of maintaining
the troops in the colonies was thrown upon the colonies, was
not England yielding up a portion of her Imperial power?
e was not at all unprepared to call upon the colonies to defend
themselves; but then he would do so directly, not indirectly—
merely by a vote in committee of supply when the question
was raised how the expense of moving the troops in the co-
lonies was to be met.
Lord STANLEY thought the committee had got into a
difficulty. No doubt the object of the majority of the com-
mittee was to effect a reduction in the amount of the colu-
nial expenditure; but if that reduction was to be made, it
was quite olear it ought to be made upon the annual expen-
diture upon the whole, and not merely on one branch of the
military service. He did not think any general rule could
be laid down on the subject. But the course which was most
generally applicable would be for the Imperial Government
to send the amount of force:that they thought was fair to
each of the colonies, and leave them to supply what was
wanted by a local militia.
Mr. BUXTON suggested to the hon. member for Taun•