The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, DECENIBER 8, 1837.

ror the pros-eution of petition=, that they have not IPen pre-
setitNl for the purpose of ...losing vex:tt'L,n or annoyance: t.-) the
op-,,esite party, and that Vt.,: ialla:)itantq of the ciunty or bc-
rcugh in li-clAnd so applying for aid have done all in their
power to false the necessary funds amongst themselves, and
stand in need of assistance." ..

" To thes: three points--namely, a cautious abstinence from
all countenance to vexcelous petitions—a careful exienination
of the merits of the cases requiring aid—and a stipulation that
the constiteencies in Ireland shall themselves conti Irene to the
ext nt of their aeility, the Committee tow readily pledge
themselves, and they trust that on this assurance the Censer-
yeti% es of Great Britain will place such reliance as to encou-
rage them to a general and liberal contribution in aid of this
great national object."
Would the House, then, after this practice had received the
sanction of all p:•rties, now consent to pass a vote in its con-
demnation ?—( Hear, hear.) He well remembered that the
Dublin election petitioners acre put to great expense on a
former occasion, and that the Honourable and Learned Mern-
b,r for Dublin received, when defending his return, subscrip-
tions tam 'persons wholly unconnected with Dublin.— (Hear,
hear, hear.) He recAved them from the people of Eng-
land to the amount of 8,003/.—("Hear," and cheers.) And
was it nut fair, in a case of a similar nature, that the peti-
tioners should hare some money granted them ? When
another election had taken place, and the majority was still
nutrower, were they not to be aided, when the money came
from the same part of the empire as that received by the Ilon.
and Is:anted Member for Dublin ?—(Cheers.) But they
were told they should not prejudge the question by raising
funds, and urged by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John
Russell) not to do it in a hurry, and so forth. But he found
that the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, who was so
eloquent lee night upon the subject of Judges and Jurors, had
been in the very predicament he deprecated himself. Let
him ask that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after calling the
attention of the House to his own eats, how he could come and
use in that House the arguments he had done ? He found
in the Freeman's Jonrnal of April, 1837, when no dissolution
had taken place, and no elections were going on, the Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman stating in Dublin, " that
it not to be endured that the supporters of Lord Mel-
bourne's Government should be put to expense—( A laugh)—
and he was most anxious that those who supported such a Go-
vernment should be re-elected free of expense."--(Hear, and
.laugheer.) "It would be found no easy matter to shake
them," continued the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, " and in
order to aid them by every way in oar power, I propose that
every Liberal Irish Member of Parliament shall advance 601.
to meet the expenses of their elections—( Hear, hear)—to
form a petition and anti-petition fund."—(Laughter.) But he
found that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was, on that
occasion, interrupted by Mr. Barrett, who suggested that
" anti-Tory" would be a better word—(Laughter)—to which
Mr. O'Connell answered, " of course."—(Loud laughter.)
The House would observe that some of the parties called
upon to subscribe by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub-
lin were the Irish Members—weee men who might them-
selves be placed in the situation of judges and jurers.—
( Cheers.) " lf," continued the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin, " the Irish Members will give the sum I have
mentioned each, it will leave us 3,0001. for a commencement.
This will not be a bad beginniag. I will put down, in the
first instance 3001., as a subscription for myself and my three
sons."—( Vehement cheering from the Opposition Benches.)
It would be recollected by Hon. Gentlemen that each of the
three sons of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin were
at this time Members of that House.—(Renewed cheering.)
" Many high and wealthy persons of the upper orders will, I
am satisfied, not be backward in coming forward with their
subscript'ous, when it is known that the money to be collected
is intended to be applied to prevent the present petition sys-
tem."—(Renewed cheers.) " I will engage that after this
no petition will be presented against the return for Carlow or
for Longford either." In this 'prediction, however, the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin was mistaken, for it so hap-
pened that there were petitions against the returns of both the
places which he had named. Why, did Hon. Gentlemen
th:nk that this conduct of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin was at all consistent with the statements and argu-
ments which he used in that House last night? Now, what did
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin do? Why, he did
that which had brought about the meeting of what he called
the " Spottiswoode gang."—(Loud cheers.) But when, he
asked, was the proposition of a general subscription made by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin ? Why, in April,
1837, during the sitting of Parliament, during the lifetime of
the late King ; and it was not until the 30th of August fol-
lowing that the meeting so bitterly inveighed against by the
Hon. Gentleman opposite took place.—( Vehement cheering.)
He wired, was it fair or right, after they, on the other side of
the House, had done this—after the great leader of their
party openly, and without either concealment or disguise, had
done this—after Hun. Members of that House who were named
on the CoMmittees which had conducted such subscriptions, and
might afterwards be struck on the ballot, and sit on the Com.
mittees appointed to try the validity of such petition had done
this—was it, he asked, light or proper, on their part, after all
this, to come forward now, and demand a Committee to report
upon, or otherwise express an opinion against a system
which owed its origin to themselves ?—(Cheers.) He could
not help thinking that the character of that House—and he
put it to Hon Members with all sincerity—would be lowered
in the eyes not only of the people of this country but of, the
world in general if, on account of its being inconvenient to
some Hon. Meiebsrs opposite, the majority of that House
were to attempt to carry measures, or do acts, which would
relieve them from the inconvenience which was apprehended
by denouncing proceedings as illegal which he had no hesita-
tion in declaring neither the law of Parliament, practice, or
usage of this country, had ever considered in any other light
than as le.trfectly constitutional. —( Great cheering.)
Lod EBRINGTON did not rise for the purpose of re-
plying to the very able speech of the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman who had just sat down, but simply to explain the
ea-t he had taken in reference to a former election for the
county of Dorset, to which the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman had made particular reference. At an election fur the
county of Dorset, which took place some years ago, he cer-
tainly had, though an elector, taken a very deep interest in the
success of an Hon: Friend of his, who then contested the

county a ..inst the Noble Lord who now sat for that county.
He well recollected that he allowed his name to be put down
as a Member of a Committee Fund in London, for the purpose
of promoting subscriptions towards that election, to which sub-
scriptions he also himself contributed.—( Opposition cheers.)
He recollected also having heard at the time of circum-
stances connected with that election which, in his opinion,
formed very strong grounds for a petition against the return,
and he would not pretend to say that he might not have
authorised the use of his name as a Member of a Committee
which was then formed for the purpose of promoting sub-
scriptions in support of such a petition.—( Renewed Op-
positi in cheers.) At the same time he trusted the House
would believe him when lie said that he had no recollection of
having. taken any part in the proceedings of that Committee,
no: of having subscribed towards the funds of Hear.)
But even if he were mistaken in his recollection of these parti-
culars. was then.. no di.tinction to be drawn between a sub-
scription pronimed for the individual purpose he baa described,
and that which they were now 'considering?—( No, nn I from
the Opposition)—the subsetibers to which could have no
knowledge of the general merits of all the Irish elections, to
petitions relating to which their funds were to be applied ? He
would ask again, was there no difference between his conduct
in the case he had referred to, and that of those individuals
who, without any inquiry into merits, issued a a holsesale sub-
scription against all the elections of one portion of the king-
dom ?—( Cheers.) Until he had heard something more con-
clusive then any which he had heard on the subject, he should
not be induced to consider that his conduct in this affair offered
a precise parallel to that of the parties to the subscriptions they
were now considering.—(Cheers.)
Mr. DENISON begged to offer a very few words in ex-
planation of %%Ira his consluct really had been in reference to
the mee ing on the subject of the City Election Petition. At
the late election for the City of London, as the House was

I,hln. Members opPos4e were fait.ty.by: hint
for he could .positiveiy as-ertz wh thight be -the else with,
other Members, that in conise.of- his life-he ( Mr.
Poultcr) had never +.3bsciibed one farih/tig,,;--(Lotid' laughter
and cheering from the 0, position, )' 11. believed it v.ould be
found that a more fair, a rn)re honest, or a tore constitu3

tiunal return had never taken place than that ft.r the borongl
of Shartest,ury.—(Llughter.) He was surprised that nom
Members on the other side treated him with so much un

fairness ; but he maintained tl:at the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who had recently addressed the House from
that side had entirely failed in defending, upon consti-
tutional ground,, the pro ricty of these subscriptions. He

. ,
saw no difference whatever between unjustly prosecutiug a
petition in that House, and instituting unlawfully a suit in
a civil court. The form of proceeding was similar in the two
cases. The petitioner proceeded, as a plaintiff, by declara-
tion, and was required to establish his proof secundam ellegate.
—( A laugh from the Opposition.) He found it stated in
books of high authority, that a person leaving the sum of 201.
for the purpoie of maintaining an action at law was guilty of
an illegal act. Were not these petitions, supported in the
manner that had been described, equally guilty ? Ifs ich a
system were allowed, it would Lave this effect- that a large
umber of persons, at a trifling expense, might prosecute to
. „

. .
ruin a single individual.—(Laughter from the Opposition.)
It was impoAlblo fur him not to. desire that a check should be
_ . . .

put to such proceedings, when he saw such individuals as Mr.
Curling putting down their names for 501., 20/., or 101.; for
no other object, he firmly believed, than to ruin a humble
though independent individual.—( Renewed laughter from the
Opposition.) Surly the House could never say that this
was not a case which, in all its ei.-eumstances, should be probed
to the bottom. This was a question in which the Government
and every Member of that House were deeply interested ;
and he was sarprised to hear so serious a charge as that which
the motion conveyed met by the imputation of unconstitutional
proceedings on the part of persons professing liberal opinions.
He did not think that his own was a case which ought to be
prejudged, and he was satisfied that it supplied a strong argu-
ment fur the motion for a Committee, which should have his
most strenuous stwport.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord ASHLEY—I entirely agree with the Hon. Member
for Bridport (Mr. Warburton) that there is a vast difference
between the p,Aitiois at prtsent under consideration and that
which was instituted against my return. There is certainly a
Very great difference in the two cases, »hen the whole force
of a country was directed against one individual, and when or.e
large class was struggling for victory over another.—(Cheeps
from the Opposition.) Now let me tell the House the grounds
on which the petition and subscription were go up against me,
and I think I shall be able to prove that a more unwarrantable
proceeding never was instituted. What was the argument
used used in private to induce persons to subscribe ? Why
this—" Show but a menacing attitude ; he has no money to
resist ; he is exhausted by the contest, and he must retire."—
( Opposition cheers ) They did show that menacing attitude,
and I did retire. It is true that my friends used their best exer-
tions—( Hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—and contributed by sub-
scription for the purpose of obtaining for me a fair hearing ;
but it was to the malignity of my enemies—for I can call it
by no less harsh a name—which I do not, however, mean to
apply to the Honourable Member for Bridport, who has be-
haved to me in the most candid and honourable manner--

that I owe my sole preservation.—"( Opposition cheers.) The
poll was vexatiously kept open for eighteen days, three Sun-
days having occurred during this period. The election doted
on the 17th of October. I arrived in town on the 19th, and
on the 20th, or 21st, at the very latest, the whole town was
placarded with appeals to the country to drive me from my
seat.—( Opposition cheers.) And what was the effect of this
appeal ? Only two days ago a gentleman residing at Reading
told me that he perfectly well recollected when the news of
that subscription came down to the town which I have named,
and that it produced a strong sensation amongst the Re-
formers—the tradesman and labouring man contributing bils
shilling to swell the fund destined for my destruction.—( Op-
position cheers, and an ironical cry of " Hear," frOm Mr.
O'Connell.) I had to defend my seat for seventeen days---L
one day less than the duration of the election itself. And
what in the end was the result? Why, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bridport (Mr. Warburton) said to me, " Well, if I
bad known you had so good a case, nothing on earth would
have induced me to take the part I have done."—( Opposition
cheers.). I feel happy to acknowledge the manly and honour-
able conduct of the Hon. Member for Bridport, and of the
Noble Lord the Member for North Devon (who has pursued
this evening his invariably upright course), in admitting that
they had affixed their names to a Committee-list, the object of
which was to amass subscriptions for turning out an indivi-
dual.—( Loud and long-continued Opposition cheers.)
Mr. WARBURTON said, in explanation of the assertion
of the Noble Lord that he had expressed surprise at his case
being so good a one, that before the petition was presented be
declared his opinion that it ought not to be persevered in.
Mr. GORING and Mr. O'CONNELL rose together. There
were loud cries for the latter, but the Hon. and Learned
Member gave way. The former Hon. Member said, it was
illegal and unconstitutional for a Lumber of persons to subscribe
in order to defeat the return of a man who might not have
means to defend his seat, and the House ought to purge itself
from every imputation of unfairness and oppression.
Mr. VILL I E RS did not hair it disputed that men
of wealth and station had combined to contribute to their
funds for the purpose, by means of the Parliamentary tri-
bunals, of removing a class of persons from this House, and
substituting in their seats partisans of their own—( Cheers) ;
and that they bad so engaged to promote and maintain these
petitions before Committees, without inquiring into the merits
of the case, without having an immediate interest in the re-
sult, and without ascertaining how their funds were to be ap-
plied for the purpose.—( Hear, hear.) These were the facts
before the House. They had the object in view, and they
had the fund contributed for its accomplishment; but the
country had another circumstance before it, namely, the cha-
racter of the tribunal as it had been described by Honourable
Members themselves on all sides of the House, and which was
allowed to be as imperfect in every respect as tribunals
tried by any test whatever could be found to be.—( Cheers. )
In his hearing it had been admitted by all par-
ties that the Judges were justly suspected because
they had an interest in the result of the inquiry ;
that they were incompetent because they were without
learning and experience, and they were exclusive, for no man
of moderate fortune could ever think of appearing before
them.—(Cheers.) What, then, he asked, were the people to
think who heard this character of the tribunal, and heard that
large sums had been raised to questiim the seats of their repre-
sentatives before them ?—( Hear, hear.) He knew that it was
the custom of this House to repel with indignation the idea
that their votes would be influenced by place or pay—( A
laugh) ;—but when the people I:card of Members denouncing
Committees of their body as impure, why should it be an ex-
travagant supposition on their part to believe that the direct
mode in allowing the judges themselves to share in the fund
was the mode in which the favourable decision for the contri-
butors was to be obtained ?—( Hear, hear.) No one would
deny that any Irish elector would be justified in his opinion,
and was it right to leave justice 'thus to be suspected ?—( Hear,
hear.) He was sorry to think that thin: was less importance
attached to the p.oceeding because it involved only the
fate of Ireland—hu obse: ved with regret the manner in
which persons allowed themselve3 to speak and write
about Ireland ; but if he could appeal to no higher
feeling, let Members only think themselves, let English
and Scotch Members remember, that this was a bold expe-
riment just made, which, if allowed to pass unheeded,
would not be confined to the Irish, but would b applied to
any ci!tss who were obnoxious to the wealthy classes, who hod
combined• their property for this purpose.—(Hea-, hear. )
Where was it to end if they did not now mark their sense of
The injustice and impolicy of this scheme ? Why should not
every popular member be driven from his seat ?—( Hear, hear.)
And what was the answ,r which the HON. Member for Exeter

aware, there 14e
_e five candidates) and his lion. Friend near

him was r,turned by 2 majority of six votes over the rejected
candidate. The friends of the rejected candidate, however,

gave to the opinion of the Crown, that if this were allowed
by the Constitution it ought not to be ; or the answer to his
Hon. Friend the Member for Liocoln, when he asked the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member fur Tamwcrth why he sought
to defer or prevent the reform of the tribunal? Why, that
the practice was of long standing in this country so to inter-
fere with the due administration of justice--( Hear, hear)—
that it was done on both =ides, for his speech was nothing from
beginning to end but recrimination and bandying back the
charge ui on this side which had proceeded from it--( Hear)
.I.snd what did that prove but the greater necessity of Reform,
and' to the extent to which, the injustice had been carried ?
( Hear, hear, hear.) He had heard that the colleges of Ox-
ford had come forward to contribute their funds for the pur-
pose of maintaining petitions against Irish Members. Would
it be, then, wond. rful if Irish Members were to reta,'iate, call
'for inquiry into their charters, or institute suits against their
presuming that they bad forfeited them ?—( Hear. )
Colonel CONOLLY hailed these subscriptions as a proof
that the generous feelings of the people of Great Britain were
excited in behalf of the oppressed part of the c,,nstituency in
Ireland, whose rights had been grossly and scandalously trod.
den down by a system of corruption and intimida'ion, which if
related in that House would be hardly credited.—( Opposition
cheers.) After the accidental expression of '• alien" had been
reiterated to an extent that prevented any body from listening
to it any longer, a new alarum bell was now to be sounded of
the hostile feeling of Great Bii!ain, because the people of this
country were anxious that the oppressed electors of Ireland
should have honest and fair means of approaching the legiti-
mate tilbunals of the country.—(Opposition cheers.)
Mr. H. GRATTAN slid his conviction was that the whole
con:piracy had been organizel long before the elections took
place, and ho referred to the' events which attended the Long-
ford election in proof of the fact. But in addi inn to its
being an anti. Irish conspiracy, it was more particu:t.rl) aimed
against those members from that country who professed the
Catholic religion.—( Cries of " No, no.") Let Hon. Mem
bees who doubted thia assertion took to the list of the subscribers.
—( The Hon)urahle Meryber here read a long string of
:ow-ncs from among the subscribers, with a view of show
ing that a conside!.ahle proportion of the fund had beet•
sent in by persons notoriously hostile to the Catholic re-
But What puzzled him most was to see the
names of so many fair ladies on the list--old dowagers
and interesting spinsters had entered heart and hand to aid
ihe fund. There was Mrs, Hastings, Miss Mary Hastings,
Miss Ann Hastings, &e. &c. to the end of a_ long chapter.
Now, why in the name of common sense should all these good
ladies be so hostile to Irish Members ?—(Roars of laughter. )
But what to him was the mctt vexatious part of the whole
affair, the spot t§lygodc onspirators had actually swindled
three most amiab!e and interesting female relatives of his own.
--(Roars of laughter.) But to be serious. Did the House
know how many Pretestant clergymen figured on the list a-
contributors to this fund for upsetting the Irish elections?
Why no less than 1,121. Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.l Why 9 was the !qn. flatonet (Sir P. Burdett)
Who Clamoured so loudly about the' unholy combination of
" Paid patriot., Popish priests, and Irish agitators," while he
stated this fact ?---c Cheers.) What bad he to say upon this

now petitioned against all the four sitting Members,. and a
subscription was raised by the. Conservatives for the purpose
of supporting that petition. The subscription on the sitting
Members' part, therefore, was merely a defeesive one.-4 Op--
position cheers.) With respect to his having acted•as Chair-
,: an at the macting in the City for the purpose of forwarding
this object, he begged to assure the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman opposite that he ( Mr. Denison) had the honour of
b.;iog an elector fur the City of London, •for he took care to
inquire into that fact when applied to by the Secretary to pre-
side at this meeting, who assured him that his name was
on the list of voters, or they would not have applied to him.
IVith respect to the possibility of his being on an Election
Committee, he could also assure the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman that before he took the Chair he said to a friend of his
that he did not think he should serve again, because having
sarved on eight petitions he should swear off.—( Hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON admitted the charge made mainst
him by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter, of his
having taken an active part in the election for the county of
Dorset some years ago ; for he acted as Chairman of the
London Committee for his friend Mr. Ponsonby, in opposi-
tto this election, as far as he could
recollect
t this distance of time, Members
leeiunal Lrso etrfaed Ir c e n
sc wehe ao now sat for the gaunt', As to
w ih na o t
o o k thet
place N
coi Noble
of Parliament studiously avoided subscribing to the funds in
support of the petition against the Noble Lord's return,—.
(Hear, hear.) For himself, as far as allowing his name to
b: insetted in the advertisement, calling upon all the inhabi-
tants of the United Kingdom to subscribe in support of this
petition, he believed the Honourable and. Learned Mt=
ter for Exeter had certainly established a ease age.ilizt
--a fact which, of course, Members opposite would not fdi
to ttie to thn best advantage. —( Hear, and 01. position
ct.oering.) With respect to the subscription to defray
the ex/a, nses of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin in
defending his return, he certainly not only did all iu his power
to advance that subscription, but he had contributed to it him-
self.—( Opposition t beers.) But then it should be recollected
that this subscription took place after the Committee had com-
pleted their labours and had given their deeision---( Hear,
hear)—and he krew that a very strong feeling had existed
amongst all those who projected this subscripti n, that nothing
of the kid 1 should he entered into, and no steps taken towards
it until after the d'sputed rgurn was decided,— (Cheers,)
Mr. P 0 ULTE It thought the House ought to to Wort-tied
that this system of subscription was not confined to Irish elec-
ions. He held in his hand a provincial paper, dated Salis-
bury, November J.l, in which was an advertisement calling
ing upon every peraen in the poiptry to subscribe in support
of a petition against his ( Mr. P...ltees)
—(frianical
cheers from the Opposition.) And he was" sorry to 'se.,
amongst the subscribers to this proposed fund the name of
one of the Lion- Meßbers for porch9ter. Fie did tlot think