The Sun.
London, England, 1830-06-16 00:00:00

GREECE.

. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to move for
the papers respecting Greece, of which he had spoken last
night—the two letters of Sir E. Cochington to the Lord
High Admiral and Sir H. Wellesley, &c.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, that it would be im-
proper to lay those papers before the House.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would leave that
refusal to the judgment of the House; and he would there-
fore, under present circumstances, not press the question.
—Motion withdrawn.

The Marquis of LANSDOWIE presented a petition
from a place near Glasgow, praying for a free trade to It,dia.
—Laid on the Table.

The same Nom.E. Loan presented petitions from certain
inhabitants of Edinburgh, against the infliction of death for
forgery; from Davenport, and from Ipswich, to the same
effect.

The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE presented a petition,
from Kildare, against increased taxation in Ireland.

Earl BATHURST presented the fourth report of the
Select Committee on the affairs of the E Ist India Company.
The Insolvent Debtors' Continuation Act went through
a Committee.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the clause re-
specting the liability of minors was removed.—( Hear.)
Lord MALMESBURY was astonished that such a
clause should have passed through the other House of Par-
liament.

When the House resumed the report was brought up,
and the Bill ordered to be printed, with a view to its being
re-committed.

Lord DURHAM presented a petition from Stockton-
upon-Tees, against the infliction of death for forgery.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from Pomfret, to the same effect.—Laid on the table.
The Contempts in Equity Bill went through a com-
mittee, the amendments were agreed to, and the House,
immediately after its resumption, adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(LAST NIGHT.)
Mr. MOORE presented petitions from two of the Cor-
porations of Trades in Dublin, against the proposed in-
crease of duty on Irish stamps.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS presented a petition from the
Presbytery of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, stating that the
Members of that House had, with the exception of a very
few, sworn that the Catholic religion was idolatrous, and
praying that no officers of the British army should suffer
punishment for not assisting in the ceremonies ofthat religion.
When he presented a similar one from persons who had been
dismissed the army for refusing to assist in such cere-
monies at Matta, the Learned Member for Clare did him-
self great credit in supporting the prayer of that petition.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not think it very decorous in
applying the term idolatrous to conscientious Christians,
who would prefer death rather than be compelled to wor-
ship any person or thing besides the one only living God.
The want of charity, however, on the part of the peti-
tioners should not cause him to swerve from the principle
that it was unjust that any human being should suffer
from any conscientious feelings.—(Hear.)
Lord KILLEEN fully concurred in the opinions and
feelings of his Learned Friend, when he was a petitioner at
the Bar of that House for liberty of conscience ; for him-
self, he always professed his conviction that no person
should suffer for his conscientious worship of God, and
from that principle he would never depart.—(Hear.)
Mr. BROWNLOW presented a petition from Armagh,
against any increase of Taxation in Ireland.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented a similar petition from
Waterford, and three from places in the county of Wex-
ford, against the Sub-letting Act ; and also five petitions
from the county of Clare, praying for a Repeal of the
Union.

Mr. CHARLES GRANT presented petitions praying
for a repeal of the Duties upon Sugar, from the Merchants
of London and Glasgow.
Mr. O'CONNELL, in presenting a petition from Sut-
ton, in Wexford, against the Vestry Act, gave notice that
in the first week of the next Session or Parliament be
should bring in a Bill to repeal the Vestry Act. The
Hon. Member then presented 4 petition from the Brewers
of Dublin, praying for d reduction of the Duty on Malt ;
and also another petition from the parish of St. Marks,
for a reduction of the Duty on Coals.
Mr. G. PONSONBY presented a petition from
Youghall, against any increase of Duty on Spirits and
Stamps in Ireland.
NEW POLICE.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the
farmers and market gardeners of Middlesex, Essex, Sur-
rey, Hertford, and Kent, praying that the New Police Act
might not extend to them, as hitherto the parishes in
which they lived bad not been liable to watch-rate.
Mr. W. PEEL said that the parishes mentioned in the
schedule of the Act were all now under the operation of
the new police; but with respect to others within twelve
miles of the metropolis, the system would not be extended
there, unless it was deemed particularly advisable; but,
he could assure the Hon. Baronet that many parishes, so
far from not wishing to be put under the operation of the
Act, had actually petitioned for its adoption.
Mr. R. COLBORNE complained of the expense of the
system: the parish in which he lived had been in the
habit of paying 5,0001. for the watch-rate, and now they
were paying 17,0001. for the new police.
Mr. ESTCOURT said a few words, which were inau-
dible in the gallery.
Blr. M. A. TAYLOR said that there were complaints
in almost every parish against the new police ; and he
believed that the old system was, in many instances, quite
as good.
Mr. BENETT said that one objection to the new system
was, that land in the neighbourhood of the metropolis
paid the rate, though they never required the attention of
the police at all.
Mr. WESTERN complained of the way in which
parishes were rated under the New Police Act.
Sir R. PEEL (who had entered the House while Mr.
Benett was speaking) said that there certainly bad been
cotsiplaints that the system was inefficient; and with good

reason, for there were parishes which had refused to sub-
ject themselves to the assessment necessary for its-support;
the consequence was, there had baen eighteen burglaries in
the course of six weeks ; this alarmed the inhabitants, and
a voluntary subscription was made ; hut in the course of
two months it fell to the ground ; and all this time there
was no provision for the nightly watch. The present sys-
tem might be more expensive than formerly ; but it was
the greatest injustice,- that, by the refusal of some, those
expenses should be heightened to those who were willing
to pay for the protection of their property. If their de-
sire was to improve the men, they must discipline them
for that purpose ; but as to calling them a military force
beyond that, it was absurd. Considering that the nuns
ber only amounted to 3000 men, he thought they had done
as much as could possibly be expected. Of comae the
expence was considerable ; but how was. that to be
avoided ? Was the number too great ? On the con-
trary, it was generally complained that they were too few ?
Was the salary too large ? On the contrary, it was said
that it was not sufficient to induce respectable men to
offer themselves. For himself he thought that the
salary was sufficient, and he should, therefore, be
unwilling to raise it ; still, however, the opposite
opinion prevailed to a considerable extent. With
respect to land in the neighbourhood of the metropo-
lis having, to pay the rate, he thought that was but
just, for as it reaped all the advantages attendant on being
situated near so large a city, what right had it to claim to
be protected from the disadvantages ? Ile saw no reason
why a parish at a distance from the metropolis should be
included in the police system ; and he should be sorry to
propose to the ,Privy Council to include any such parish,
without first consulting the parish authorities, more parti-
cularly if they objected to it. As far as his experience of
the new system went, he had formed a highly favourable
opinion of it. Twelve months had not yet elapsed since
it was formed, and he did not expect that in so short a
time it would have done so much. He had never antici-
pated that it would in that time have become so well ac-
quainted with the class of people it was most desirous the
police should be acquainted with, anti should watch them.
The police was daily improving, and three or four years
would not elapse before the House, he was sure, would
congratulate itself on having established the force. Gentle-
men must not judge altogether from the streets through
which they were accustomed to walk, but they must look
at every part of the metropolis, and its environs. That
system could not be good which did not provide for the
police of every pill ; for if the police of St. Giles were
neglected, the parish of St. George would suffer•. The
former system, which allowed each parish to take care of
itself, was a bad one. Complaints were made of the police
almost before it was formed. It was not adopted from any
whim, it had been recommended by a Committee nomi-
nated at his suggestion—that Committee had made elabo-
rate inquiries, and recommended the present police system.
He hoped the new system would be preserved, for his con-
fidence in its success was strengthened every day.
Mr. W. WYNNE was also of opinion that the present
system was a great improvement on the old system. Ile
liked it because, though efficient, it was not a military
system, and he hoped that it would superscede the military
police now employed on several occasions.
Sir R. VYVYAN thought he was justified in the view
he took of its being the intention of the Right Hon.
Gentleman to supersede all the ancient-institutions of the
country, by what he had said when lie brought the subject
under the notice of the House of Commons, The Hon.
Baronet then quoted a passage from Sir Robert Peel's
speech on moving for leave to bring in the Police Bill, in
which he sated that the• country had overgrown its in-
stitutions, to justify the assertions he had made. If there
were one institution which more than another contributed
to keep alive the spirit of liberty, it was that which en-
titled
every man to share in the administration of justice,
and called on him in turn to take his part in seeing that
the laws were obeyed. He trusted that he should never
see the system- extend to all parts of the country. The
Right Hon. Secretary had proposed to give the benefits of
his plan to the city of London, but the Corporation had
wisely resolved to keep their affairs in their own hands,
and resist the introduction of the police into the city. He
had never described the present police as a military body,
but he objected to it that it was a large organised force,
which might be increased to a great extent—the funds for
• paying which were not under the controul of Parliament,
and which was entirely moved by the will of the Secretary
of State.

Mr. Alderman WOOD wished to state that the Right
Hon. Secretary had never offered to impose the police on
the city of London, but the police institutions of the city
had been examined, and they were found to be imperfect,
as well as those at the West End. These imperfections,
howeN er, were left to be removed by the Corporation, and
the subject had been under its consideration for three or
four months. The result, he believed, would be, that the
city would adopt a system like that carried into execution
for Westminster. According to the calculations laid be-
fore the Corporation, the present system of watching the
city cost about 36,0001. per year, and it was calculated
that the new system would not cost more than 30,0001.,
so that there would be a saving of 6,000/. a year, and the
city would have an efficient day police of 100 men. He
believed, the principal reason why there wai an opposition
to the new plan in the city, was that many of the citizens
liked their old watchmen. He had recommended the
Lord Mayor to summons all the city watchmen to the
Guildhall, and there have a review of them.—(A laugh.)
—He thought that would be an effectual way of showing
their inefficiency. Nobody was better able to speak of the
behaviour of the new police than the Magistrates who
were present at the Old Bailey. He had been there him-
self, and he noticed a marked improvement in the new
police, as compared with the old. He hoped soon to be
able to bring forward a Bill for establishing a new police
in the city. _

Sir R..PEEL begged to be allowed to explain. He was
never more surprised, than to find 5. debate of this kind
brought on without any intimation having been given, or
any notice even that a petition was to be presented ; and
not merely a debate, but an attack on him. The Hon.
Baronet came down with scraps of his former speeches,
and endeavoured to prove that he wished to change the
institutions of the country.---(Hear.)—The Hon. Baronet
said he was glad that the city of London had resisted the
Secretary of State, as it had formerly resisted an arbitrary
Sovereign, and had escaped the controul of the new po-
lice. The fact was that he (Sir IL Peel) told the city
that he would not concern himself in any way with the
city police, except by giving it all the documents and
papers connected with the Westminster police. He never
had attempted to interfere with the city ; he bad no wish
to controul the city of London, and wished that its police
should be improved under its own municipal authorities,
and not under the authority of the Secretary of State. He
did say that the country had outgrown its institutions;
but he applied that remark only to its police institutions.
If the Hon. Baronet thought that there should be no other
institutions now than those that existed in the time of Al-
fred, he was much mistaken. The Hon. Baronet's re-
spect fur antiquity carried him too far when he found no-
thing to admire but the institutions that were framed GOO
or 700 years ago. He hoped that every populous place
would provide itself with a police, but he by no means
wished that the police of every town should be under the
controul of the Secretary of State.
Mr. TRAN r complained of the police because tile),
would not make the parish authorities acquainted with
the disposition of their force within the parish. He
knew that this had occurred in Mary-la-bonne. The
vestry had requested to be informed kow the police force
was disposed of in the parish, and the information was
refused.

Mr. ROSS defended the police for not complying with
the vestry's request.

Mr. ROBERT GORDON thought the police very
good, and that it had answered very well.
Mr. BARING highly approved of the police, and
thought that it was a great advantage that it had a mili-
tary character.
Sir JOHN SHELLEY also eulogised the new police.
Sir ROBERT PEEL and Sir R. VYVYAN mutually ex-
plained.—Petition read.
Atter a few words from Sir E. KNATCHZULL and Sir
ROBERT PEEL,
The petition was ordered to be printed.
BUSINESS BEFORE THE HOUSE.: _

The SPEAKER— called on 111 r. Bright; and Mr.
BRIGHT began to address the House, but he was inter-
rupted by
Sir ROBERT PEEL, who felt himself obliged to call
the attention of the House to the state of the public busi-
ness. He felt deeply interested in that subject. It was
hects:sry te wake some uherettieh IA the prow mode of

proceeding, and come to some determination as to the time
at which public business should begin, or abandon it alto-
gether. At present it was so defected, that attention to
it was precluded. At that late period of the Session
something ought to be done, or the inconvenience to the
public would be very great. He should beg leave, there-
fore, to submit to the House, in the existing state of the
public business, that it woulU he expedient, for the pre-
sent Session, and only for the present Session, that the
House should come to an understanding that public bu-
siness should commence at a definite hour. He would
say that on every day, except Wednesday, public business
ought to begin at half-past five o'clock. For private busi-
ness then there would be an hour and a half every day,
and for the presenting petitions. The petitions, too,
might be presented after the public business was done.
Gentlemen who were concerned in petitions, when they
were of a doubtful nature, would greatly facilitate the
business of the House if they would not excite debates on
them. He would not move any formal resolution on the
subject, but lie was anxious to collect the general sense of
the House on the question, whether it would not be de-
sirable to make a temporary arrangement—and to be un-
derstood only as a temporary arrangement—that the public
business should begin every evening at half-past five
o'clock ? He d'd not wish that it should take effect on
the present day, but that in future business should begin
at that time.

Mr. BROUGHAM had taken the liberty, on a former
occasion, of calling the attention of the House to the em-
barrassment which had grown up in its proceedings, and
to observe, that if no change were made in the form of
their proceedings, it would be impossible for the House
efficiently to transact the business of the country. It was
net that great public questions bad not a fair chance to
obtain discussion, they bad no chance at all. Petitions
were presented anti discussed from individuals who pre-
sented them, and had little or no relation to any great
public question; the consequence was, that though they
had said a great deal, and sat late, it had done very little
business. The House had sat, on an average, from forty-
five to fifty hours every week, and as Wednesday was not
to be included, these hours were to be divided amongst
four nights, snaking eleven or twelve hours which the
House had sat every night. But though it bad sat so
long, he could not say that it had done much business.
He agreed, therefore, with the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that the House should for this Session fix some hour at
which the public business should commence.

Mr. BRIGHT must say that he considered the present-
ing pet itions one of the most important parts of the busi-
ness of the House. He was not prepared to say that the
House ought to give over receiving petitions at a certain
time, in order to enter into what was called a grand
debate. He would recommend that the private business
should be postponed till after the public business was
transacted, or till after midnight.—(No, no.) Then
gentlemen who were anxious to attend private business,
might do so without impeding the public business.
Mr. W. WYNNE approved of the recommendation of
the Right Hon. Gentleman.

Mr.-LITTLEDALE suggested that it would expedite
business if more Bills originated in the House of Lords.
Out of sixty-three Bills last year only one had been brought
in there, whereas eighteen might have been brought in.
Sir R. PEEL understood it to be the wish of the
House, that, after Thursday next, the Speaker should call
on public business at half-past five every day.
Mr. BROUGPIAM said, that if any private matter were
under discussion at half past five, it ought to be allowed
to be concluded.

Sir R. PEEL of course assented to this proposal.
On the motion of Mr. 13a1GuT an order was made for
a return of the number of persons who had compounded
for Assessed Taxes during the last year.
Mr. JEPHSON presented a petition from Mallow
against the increase of taxes in Ireland.