The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-19 00:00:00

COURT CIRCULAR.

The Queen will hold a Privy Council to-morrow afternoou
at the new palace.
Her Majesty honoured the performance of Maeieth, at Co-
vent-harden Theatre, last evening, with her presence. Shortly
before eight o'clock her Majesty arrived at the theatre, attended
by the Duchess of Sutherland, the Countess of Mulgrave,
Hon. Mrs. George Campbell, the Lord Chamberlain, Viscount
Falkland, and the Hon. Colonel Grey
Her Majesty gave audience yesterday to Viscount Melbourne.
The Duke and Prince George of Cambridge, attended by
Baron Kneseba"k and Colonel Cornwall, went to Kew yester-
day, and had a day's thooting, returning to town in the afternoon.
The Duchess of Gloucester dined with the Duke and Duchess
of Cambridge last evening, at Cambridge House. The royal
party, accompanied by Prince George and the Princess Augusta
of Cambridge, afterwards honoured the Haymarket Theatre
with their presence.
Lord Melbourne gave Parliamentary dinners on Saturday
and Sunday. The party on Saturday included Lord Lilford,
Lord George Lennox, Sir Charles Lemon, Colonel de Lacy
Evans, Mr. Langdale, Mr. Bellew, Sir Charles Villiers, Mr.
J. Ponsonby, Colonel Fox, Mr. Abel Smith, Mr. Gibson, Sir
H. Verney, and the Hon. W. Cowper. The dinner party on
Sunday included the Marquis of Headfort, Lord Worsley,
Lord Saye and Sele, Sir Charles Blunt, Messrs J. Dennis-
toun, Duckworth, Bcnj. Hall, P. Mahoney, Hut•on, J. Parker,
C. Fcrgusson, Mark Philips, R. Currie, Clay, \Vishaw, Hol.
la=id, C. Lushitigton, and the Hon. W. Cow per.
The Chanceltor of the Exchequer and Lady Theodosia
Spring Rice had a dinner party on Sunday, at their residence
in Mansfield-street. Amongst the company were—Count
Pollon, the Sarilinian Minister, the Countess of Minto, and
Lady Fanny Elliot, Viscount Duncannon, and the Hon. Miss
Miss Ponsonby, the Lord Advocate of Scotland. Mr. and Mrs.
Tufnell. _ _ . .

Mr. Winston Barron and Colonel Maedourrall h d interviews
with Lord (lcnelg yesterday at the Colonial-office.
Sir Muses Montefiore, Sheriff, Mr. D. Salomon*, and Mr.
I. L. Goldsmid, had au interview wit!) the Marquis of Lans-
downe and Viscount Melbourne yesterday, in Dow:dug-street.
The Grecian Minister transacted bUsiness yesterday at the
For..ign-office.
Despatches from Canada were received yesterday at the Co.
lonial.office.
Mr. Abel Smith, Mr. Mark Philips, and a deputation, ha 1 an
interview yesterday vti,h the Chancellor of the Exchequtr.

METEORIC SHOWER OF NOVEM-

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

BER, 1837.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-DRC. 18.

The following extract imparts to our Tuesday's scien-
tific paper on the Asteroids the character of a prediction :
(From a New York Paper.)
The fact of an occurrence of an extraordinary exhibition
of meteors, or shooting stars, on the morning of the 13th
of November, every year for six years past, afforded a suf-
ficient reason, independently of every theoretical considera-
tion, for watching the heavens attentively on the night of
the recent anniversary. The result has justified our anti-
cipations ; and we are able to say that the annual me-
teoric shower of November has been repeated the present
year. The scale, indeed, was vastly inferior to those of
some ether years, but still the phenomenon was marked by
such distinctive peculiarities with respect to the number
origin, direction, and trains of the meteors, as to leave no
doubt of its identity with them:
In order that every part of the firmament might receive
its due share of attention, the four quarters of the heavens
were parcelled out amongst eight persons, two to each
quarter, one to observe and one to record.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack al
Five o'Clock.

Lord DUNCANNON laid on the table the Annual Re.
port of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ireland.
On the motion of the same Nonut LORD, the Report was
ordered to be printed.

POST OFFICE.
Lotd BROUGHAM said he was sorry not to observe his
Noble Friend the Postmaster-General in his place, particu-
larly as he had given notice of the petitions he was now about
to present. He was, however, under the necessity of pre-
senting at any rate one of them without further delay ;
and that was a petition from the Mayor, Aldermen,
and Corporation of the City of London, agreed to in
Common Council assembled ; and they certainly- were, of
any body of her Majesty's subjects, the most likely
persons to be regarded as having a right to deal with the im-
portant subject of the Post-office. No persons had a deeper
interest in the good regulations of that great esta-
blishment than the citizens of this great city, whom
the petitioners represented ; and no part of her Majesty's do-
minions was more directly interested in the improvement of
the Post-office establishment than the City of London. The
Corporation of the City of London had deemed it their
duty to take this subject into consideration, and after giving
it their best attention they had adopted the present petition.
They stated that a swift communication by post tended greatly
to the improvement of the commerce, manufactures, and agri-
culture of this country; and was also highly important for
the collection and diffusion of information, by which the edu-
cation of the people would be greatly accelerated, as
well as friendly intercourse forwarded. The mercantile
part of the City of London had turned their attention to
this subject ; they had very fully gone into the details :
they had themselves very extensive experience on the
question; they had the capacity beyond most men of examining
the particulars and principles of any plan which might be
adopted for its improvement ; therefore their opinion was en-
titled to operate by way of testimony in reference to any
plan, and they gave it in favour of Mr. R. Hill's plan. They did
not specify that plan in particular in its details as
the plan to which they gave their approval, or which
they called upon the Legislature to adopt, but it was
clearly to that plan they pointed, because they applied them-
selves to the Ninth Repprt of the Commissioners upon the
Post-office inquiry, and prayed particularly for the adoption
of that communication which was to try the plan by the two-
penny post. He (Lord B.) was happy to observe that
his Noble Friend ( Lord Lichfield) was now in his place.
Having stated so much, lie need hardly remind their Lord-
ships that upon such a subject there was no authority so
high as that of the trading classes of the community ; and
connected with that subject, there was perhaps no per-
son of higher authority among mercantile men than a
Noble Friend of his, and a Member of their Lord-
ship's House (Lord Ashburton), who had more than
once called their attention to the subject. Without precisely
pledging himself to the whole of that measure, his Noble
Friend had come to the opinion that the conveyance of letters
was not of itself, and in itself, in its own nature, due regard
being had to the convenience of the public, a proper subject of
taxation for the purpose of revenue. That no doubt the diffi-
culty might be great of retracing their steps, after having for
so long a period made it the subject of taxation ; and that
when an important branch of revenue had risen up under the
system, it might raise very great difficulty, his Noble Friend
did not deny, nor did he (Lord Brougham), but if it were to
be a question whether a greater mercantile country ought
to make the postage or conveyance of letters a
subject of revenue or a mat-er of taxation—if such
a proposition were made, he thought the answer of his
Noble Friend would be in the negative, as well as the enamor
which he (Lord Brougham) himself would give. He ventured
to appeal to their Lordships, who had heard that subject dis-
cussed in that place more than once; he would now take it that
after a larger revenue had grown up upon wrong
principles by raising money for the public service by taxing
the communications by post, he would take it that even after
so large a revenue as a million and a half had been collected
and received, eves if the alteration were attended with a very
considerable present diminution of that income—even if it
tended generally to lower that revenue, it would in the
end not only compensate itself, and raise the revenue
to its former pitch, but would even greatly increase that
revenue. Such was the proposition which, as soon as the
question came before their Lordships in a more fit shape to
decide, he ( Lord B) for one was prepar. d to maintain.
He would not merely allude to the reduction of postage alone,
for the purpose of raising Ws argument—he did not refer to
the taking off of the 121 d., as some contended for—the 9d.
as others thought would be necessary, or the 61 which others
again made their calculation from—he would go at once to
the taking off the whole—of going at once to the one penny per
ounce, or half ounce, which was the proposition of Mr. Hill.
He (Lord B.) did not mean to _assert that such a diminution
of the postage would so largely increase the number of letters
so as to bring up the gross revenue to its present amount.
He would go farther. He looked forward to the reat
boon which it would confer upon the whole mercantile
world in this country—the vast increase which it would
give to the great trading interests of the country, by which
all sourer s of revenue in the country—by which the revenue
in every branch must be greatly and wonderfully increased.
That was an opinion in which he concurred with his Noble
Friend ( Lord Ashburton). He rejoiced at the presence
of his' Noble Friend the Postmaster- General, because
be wisLed much to tell him that he ( Lord Lich-
field) had failed to satisfy his (Lord Brougham's)
mind that the plan suggested by Mr. Hill was so totally im-
practicable as he had stated it to he. He conceived that the
whola of his Noble Friend's calculations was founded upon
the statements which had r f course been prepared fur him—a
statement that the total number of letters now was between
42 aid 43 millions. Now any one hearing his Noble Friend
make Cow statement would suppose that they were itni,put,cl
facts, and that his calculation. were built upon such certain
fmtidatior3, as, when u-god against Mr. Hill's plan, would
rei.der it perfectly impracticele and impossible to bring into
effect. He did not rightly understand his Noble Fiend,
whether in his calculations he had included the twopenny
and threepenny post, or confined himself exclusively to the
general post

The early part of the evening of the 12th afforded some
signals of promise. A copious rain which fell on the pre-
vious night, attended by an easterly wind, had given place
to a serene sky, with the wind at the west ; from the set-
ting sun diverged large columns of a peculiar rose-coloured
vapour ; and before six o'clock, an auroral pillar, of a crim-
son hue, presented itself in the north-west ; but before
seven o'clock every unusual appearance bad vanished, and
left an unclouded sky.

The full moon, however, shone with so strong a light as
almost to hide the stars, permitting none to be seen below
the third magnitude ; of course no meteors but those of un-
usual brightness could be visible.

No shooting stars were observed until five minutes past
one o'clock, when they began to appear at considerable in-
tervals, emanating as usual from the bead of Leo, which
constellation was then ascending the eastern sky. The
meteors gradually increased in number and brightness until
daylight. Nearly all, as they darted forth, left visible
traces of their paths. Some of these were brilliant, and
all must have had a high degree of brightness to have over-
come so strong a moon'ight. Indeed, in such a state of
the sky, it is rare on common evenings to see shooting stars
at all. These traces were in most cases to be regarded not
as trains arising from the deposit of luminous matter, but
as mere lines of Ight, 4:ming to the velocity of meteors,
which was so great that a continued impression was left on
the eye, like that of a stick ignited at the end, and whirled
in the air. Trains remaining after the extinction of the
meteors (which made a conspicuous figure in the meteoric
shower of 1833) are rarely luminous enough to be visible
in full moonlight. Only two were observed on the present
occasion.

The whole number counted during the night was 226.
Of these, all but ten or twelve either radiated from a point
in the bead of Leo, or moved in lines which, if continued,
would have pawed through that point. The position of
the radient was at first near the Lion's eye (at the star
Mu Leonis), but afterwards moved southward and eastward
a little, and soon after three o'clock became stationary,
near Epsilon Leonis (right ascension 146 deg., declination
24 deg. 30 min.), within half a degree of its position
in 1826.

The various meterological instruments were attentively
inspected during the night, but nothing remarkable was
observed,

Yale College, Nov. 14.

In noticing the shower which occurred on the 13th of
November a year ago, in connexion with others which had
occurred on the same night of the year for five years pre-
vious in succession, Professor 0. stated the following as
among the characteristics of the phenomenon :
`• 1. The number of meteors, though exceedingly va-
riable, is much greater than usu .1, especially of the larger
and brighter kinds.

" 2. An uncommonly large preport;on leave lumineus

trains.

" 3. The metecr3, with few exceptions, all appear to
proceed from a common centre, the position of which has
been in nearly the same point in the heavens—viz., in
some part of the constellation Lco.

" The principal exhibiticn has at all times and at all
places cccurred between midnight and sunrise, and the
incuintrini from three to four o'clock.

" In all these partieu7ars the meteoric showers of 1834,
1835, and 1836, have resembled that of 1833 ; while no
person, so far as I have heard, has observed the sonic com-
bination of circumstances on any other occasion within the
same period."

The Censeur cle L.yon has the following statement :
Mo-sieur de 13-, one of the superior attaches of the office
of Public Instruction, has lately been guilty of the embezzle-
ment of public property to the amount of 200,000 francs, and
forgeries arc said to be connected with the act of embezzle-
meut. Being arrested by a warrant on Monday evening by
the officers of police., he requested leave to take some refresh-
ment at an hotel, whiell was permitted. After the repast he
adroitly availed himself of a circumstance, which he is sup-
posed to have been f:imiliar with, in order to make his escape.
An exit door was masked by a large placard, and through this
lie contrived to evade the watchfulness of his disappointed
cepturcrs. A description is given of his peri,,rt, and a reward
is advert'sed for his apprehension.
On Thursday a public meeting of the inhabitant
householders of the populous parishes of St. Giles and St.
George, Bloomsbury, was held, pursuant to announcement, at
the Angel Inn, High-street, for the purpose of considering
the propriety of peti.inoing Parliament for the Ballet, House-
hold Suffrrsge, and Triennial Parliaments, and to take such
other steps to obtain the same a 3 they might deem necessary.
Mr. Jame; White presided. - Mr. M'Larcn, jun., then read
a petition which had been drawn up for the approbation of the
meeting, praying that the Legislature would pass into a law
the measures above referred to. After some discussion the pe-
tition was adopted, and a vote of thanks having been passed
to the Chairman, the meeting separated at a late hour.
The Bill vs hich has been brought into Parliament 1,
by Lord J Russell and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to
regulate the times of payment of rates and taxes by Parlia-
mentary electors, and to abolish the stamp-duty on the ad-
mission of freemen, enacts, " That after the passing of this •
act, no person ‘these name is or shall be upon the register f;:r
the time being. es entiderl to vote in the election of a member
or members to serve in Parliament for any city, town, or bo
rough in England, shall be required, in order to entitle him
to have his name inserted in any list of such voters for that
city, town, or borough for the following ve.r, to have paid
any poor-rates or ass- ssed taxes, except such as shall have be-
come payable from him previously to the 11th day of Octo •
ber in the preceding year; and that after the passing of this
act no stamp-duty shall be chargeable on the admission of any
freemen in any city, town, or borough in England, returning
a member or members to servo in Parliament."
The Reform Club have set an example to all
similar institutions who have it in their power to encourage
competition in the fine arts. They have.received designs and
plans for a new club-house from the -most eminent architects,
and hung them up in their Committee-room for the inspection
of members. A premium of 5001. was offered for the suc-
cessful design, and the Committee, having given the preference
to Mr. C. Barry's design in the bold and massive style of
Florentine architecture, called a general meeting of the Club
for the purpose of finally deciding between that and the other
deaigns.• • The meeting was very'nurnerously attended, and
confirmed the selection of the Committee. The whole of the
ground between the Travellers' and the open space facing the
Carbon is intended to be occupied by the new building, which
will surpass in magnificence, if erected on the scale now
planned, any edifice in London devoted to similar purposes.
The Royal Irish Academy has just done itself the
honour of electing the celebrated Professor Sir William Hamil-
ton to the President's Chair, vacant by the death of the late
Provost. The Provost-Elect Saddlier, if he may. be so called,
had only one vote I
The Archbishop of Dublin
Professor Lloyd 36
Sir William Betham
Sir William Hamilton

HERRING FISIIERY.—The following table shows
the quantity of herrings caught on the coasts of Caithness and
Orkney, during the seasons 1336-7 _

. _
1836. 1837.
Wick
Thurso
Lybster
lielmsdale
O_•kncy

114,600 170,500
On this side the Moray Frith the total number of herrings
caught, in 1836, was 120,000 crans, but this year, the returns
show little more than 100,000. It appears, then, from these
statements, that the total number caught in 1836, exclusive of
the Shetland fishery, was about 234,000 erans. In 1837,
about 270,000, being an increase of 36,000. But if we take
in the returns for Shetland, which will be considerably less
than last year, the quantity caught will appear much about the
same as in 1836. Upon the whole, the returns are considera-
bly below an average fishing.—Aberdeen Journal.
Friday night, the Bth instant, at 15 minutes past
11, an earthquake was distinctly felt at Stamford, as well as
at several places in the neighbourhood, extending as far west-
ward as Hambleton, in Rutland, where the shock was rather
severely experienced. From Wansford, and other towns
within twenty miles, we have received accounts of the alarm
occasioned by the visitation ; many persons were roused from
their sleep.—Stan fbrd Mercury.
On Friday night a Mr. Davies, living in Store-
street, Bloomsbury, while sitting in his parlour with his fa-
mily, was alarmed by a smell of fire. On catering the pas-
sage they observed the first floor apparently in flares:s. 110
and his son rushed up stairs, when, on entering the front
rreen en the first floor, they found a widow lady, of the name
of Campbell, who is of advanced age, lying on the floor, en-
veloped in flames, which were extinguished by a carpet
being flung over her. In the back room the bed was also
found in flames. Dr. Vance, of Gower-street, was sent for,
but the unfortunate lady was so severely burnt that she died
in a few hours. The deceased was not able to give an ac-
count of the accident. She was a very eccentric character,
and lived alone.

Lord LICHFIELD—The general post alone.
Lord BROUGHAM had expected so, and would assume
the fact, but there the author of the plan, Mr. Hill, and the
authorities of the Post-office were at direct issue. It was
a matter of estimate and calculotion on both sides.—(Heir.)
That was the very point in dispute between the pa-ties. Mr.
Hill calculated the letters going through the Post-office
at 791 millions—in round number eighty millions.—
There they were at direct issue in their assumptions.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) He believed—this was a fact—a fact beyond
disptee, that 221 millions passed through the Pest-office in
London in a year. Ten millions of those went through the
general post, while twelve and-a-half went through the two-
penny or threepenny. In the calculations therefore they
were to deduct the ten millions from the twenty-two and-a-
half millions. His Noble Friend had taken those ten mil-
lions, and made his calculation for the whole country.
He found theca yielded 460,0001., and then ho found the
whole of the General Post letters for the United Kingdom
yield-d about four times that sum. This proceeded on the
assumption that the average value of the country letters to
the revenue was, previously, the same as the ave-
rage value or the letters in the London district ;
the average of each letter in the London district was calcu-
lated at 121 d. Every one knew that the amount of postage in
London was larger than in the country, because the London
letters included large packages of foreign letters, which went
to swell the amount of the postage received, and to increase
the average value of the letters, and might raise it to 121 d. in
the London district. But in the country districts therc
were no such circumstances, because very few foreign packages
were sent into the country. He happened to have the means
of knowing what the amount was for one town in a midland
County—a quarter of a million of letters passing through that
town in a year—and he believed the average value of
those letters was rot 12id. but 7i-d. or ad.—certainly
not more than 9d. That made a material difference.
Now as to Mr. Hill's plan. It was not correct, nor anything
like correct, to state that Mr. Hill's plan made no provision
for any increased expense in the Post-office Department, in
consequence of the increased number of letters and the amount
of business to be attended to ; the reverse was the fact, because
he allowed 225,0001. for the additional expense of working his
pl2n. He would state now, as he had stated to a former
Postmaster-General, that an igncrant and humble individual
like himself ought to be very careful how they came into con-
tact with the authorities of aay department under Government.
No doubt great weight was due to their opinions, and great
authority was necessarily ascribed to their statements.
Very ample drafts were made on, he would not
say credulity, but credit of Parliament, when any thing was
said to impeach their authority by statements that individuals
knew nothing of the matter, that those who were beyond the
walls of the establishment could have little information,
and their alarms were expressed at any change in a de-
partment which yielded a great proportion of the re-
venue. Great praise was bestowed on the department and those
who conducted it, and he had no reason to doubt much of that
praise was well earned by that department—he meant by
those who acted under what he took to be a wrong system ;
but that was not their fault.—( Hear, hear.) He had
been very much put to it to find out how it was all
those praises of that department which they hall heard of late
occasions was bestowed, and that those—he would not say
vituperations, but somewhat contemptuous expressions of all
who were beyond it—bad been indulged in. The imprac-
ticability was- another grand objection to this plan ;
there was nothing new in that objection. Indeed the word had
often been used in that House and elsewhere as establishing an
insuperable objection to all plans for the improvement of the Post-
office. He could refresh the memory of their Lo:dships by re-
ferring to the places and occasions when this word had been
used as reasonably, and quite as positively as it was now used.
Their Lordships would recollect that, in the year 1784, a gen-
tleman named Palmer recommended the adoption of a system of
mail-coach carriages, when at that time the mails were carried at
the rate of three miles-and-a-half an hour. Mr. Palmer was
of opinion that they could be carried at the rate of seven miles
an hour, if not more. Did not their Lordships recollect the
alarm which the announcement of this proposition spread
through every department of the Post-office ?_( Hear, hear,
hear, and laughter.) Did they recollect the indignation—
the absolute contempt—the scornful contempt with which
it was received by the all the officials of the Post Office ?—.( A
laugh.) A contempt equalled only by the loud chorus of ap.
plause which they rung in the ears of Parliament in praise
of every one man—every one rule—every one regulation, in
any way connected with any one department of that most per-
fect establishment, the Post Office of 1784, with its safe, sure,
and steady mails of 3} miles an hour !—(Great laughter.)

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 1837

The Committee of the House of Commons in its report upon
this subject in 1797, declared that " the more we con-
sider the plans of Mr. Palmer, the more are we Con-
vinced of the insuperable difficulty in attempting to bring them
into operation.--( A laugh.) The officers of the Post-office,
whom we regard as the best judges of the question, have
been examined before us, and are unanimously of opinion that
the thing is totally impracticable." Another Committee
reporting on the same subject said, "We have examined
the oldest and ablest officers of the Post-office." (It was al-
ways the oldest and ablest, for the Committees considered the
term synonimoua,) " and the oldest and ablest officers
had no confidence whatever in the plan." Indeed in
looking over these reports he found that it was always
the oldest and ablest who had the greatest contempt for im-
provement, and that the older an officer was the greater con-
tempt be had for the officer who was less older than himself.—
( Laughter.) They were all, however, both young and
old, positively of opinion that the plan of Mr. Palmer
was not only impracticable, buts dangerous to commerce
and finance. It was frightful for their Lordships to tbiok
of the dangers which the commerce and finance of the country
had escaped since that period. They had been exposed not
only to the dangers of the French war and the Orders
in Council, but they had likewise escaped the dangers
incurred by the melancholy and awful change of the
speed of the mails from 31 miles to 7 miles an hour. But
that was not all ; the finances of the country had an escape
possibly greater. When Mr. Palmer in 1784 laid his reck-
less hand on the pace of the Post-office'borses, the revenue
in that department was 150,0001. a year; and it had since
that time fallen to one million and a half.—(Great laughter.)
Notwithstanding all that had been done to accelerate its fall
—(laughter)—by increasing the speed of mails—(renewed
laughter)—and although the Bath mail, instead of taking 18
hours on its journey arrived now in thirteen or fourteen,
then another old and able officer said, " Why should letters
go so much quicker than any other thing." It was the tor-
toise they meant to imitate at the Post-office. They could
entertain no notion of the propriety of expediting com-
munications. Their Lordships would have supposed that
it was a very simple proposition that the passengers
and property which went by the mail would be the more safe,
from their being a guard to each coach. One would have
thought that that was next to a truism ; but not so the old
and able officers of the Post-office—they did not think so. They
said it was a great fallacy to think that that increasd their
safety. They.said, moreover, that t 6 :only way to avoid dan-
ger in case of robbery was to hare no guard, because in case
of an attempt to rob the mail resistance would be productive of
murder. They went on to say, that the only way to prevent rob-
bery was to cut the bank-notes and bills, which were proposed
to be sent by the mail. Send the ono half at one tine, and
then wait till the party sending the money was informed of the
safe arrival of that half before they sent the other. They said
there was no other way to prevent robberies of mails than this,
because it bad been proved that the strongest carts that
could be made, lined and bound with iron, was
soon broken open by a robber who had made an attempt to
rob one of the mails !—( Much laughter.) He (Lord B.)
begged their Lordships' pardon for giving them a little spe-
cimen of the wisdom of their ancestors. They, however, bad
interrupted the progress of Mr. Palmer's plan in every possible
way ; they had cast cold water on it for months and years ; and yet
no sooner was it established than all approved of it, and all
felt the benefit of it except the Postmasters, who,'for eighteen
months afterwards said it was dangerous and detrimental. They
all agreed that it was chemerical and visionary. They brought
forward all the vituperations against it which are usually brought
forward against any plar. But all their chimera, visions, and
groundlessness, we e not in the plan—were not in the data on
which the plan was formed, but in the objections and in the
alarms of those who had nothing but fears and alarms to guide
their perverted and easily pervertable minds—which were bent
upon any thing that was calculated to obstruct the progress
and aid the putting down of this ingenious improvement. The
present petitions prayed the House to put the plan in opera-
ti to by way of trial, according to the Ninth Report of the
Commissioners. Had he( Lord Brougham) presented this peti.
tien the other night. he shoule, as he intended, have asked his
Noll Friend whether it" was the intention of her Majesty's
Government to make a trial of the plan in this way, but that
question had now been answered, and he was sorry to say an-
swered in a very unsatisfactory manner. He knew his Noble
Friend too well to suppose him capable of holding out any ex-
pectations for which he had not good grounds. Very sanguine
expectations had been entertained, but contrary to those
expectations the hopes of himself, of many others, and
amongst these he believed his Noble Friend himself, had been
greatly disappointed. Instead of carrying into execution the
plan according to the Ninth Report another plan was to be
carried into execution totally different in its nature, and which
might fail over and over aaain without the possibility of even
a Post-office speculator pretending that it was a failure
af Mr. Rowland Hill's plan, because it was to be con-
fined now to the twopenny postage. Mr. Hill's plan
was not that the postage should be reduced to two-
pence—it was that the postage should be reduced to a
penny—the twopenny and threepenny postage to a penny
for all letters, and to try the plan in the twopenny
and threepenny post alone. Instead of this the plan proposed
to be tried, was not the reduction of the postage to a penny,
but the reduction to twopence, which, if it failed, either in re-
ference to revenue or in any other respect, would be no
kind of test whatever of the merits or goodness of Mr.
11ill'a plan, but mould be a plan under the pretence of
tryieg Mr. Hill's Wan utterly inconsistent with it.—( Hear. )
Viscount DUNCANNON said that Mr. Hill's plan had
been maturely considered, but it had been found inexpedient
to try the experiment to the full extent recommended.
According to the Ninth Report of the Commissioners,
. . _ _

thelgoble Lord who had just sat down; what Mr. Rowland
Hill had a right to complain of was, that so much of his plan
only had been taken as would ensure its failure. The expe-
riment was whether the public would adopt a plan of envelopes
which they were to pay for before hand • he knew that it was
difficult to get the public out of an old track, and he was
afraid such would 1:;e the case with the present experiment.
Another objection was that there would be a manifest loss
in manufacturing the envelope, some of which he had seen
and he must confess they were very beautiful, but they were
to be manufactured by most intricate machinery, which
would require a very great outlay for its construction.
He thought it must be evident to every one that if
Mr. Rowland Hill's plan were partially adopted there
would be a very great increase of letters. He had pre-
sented a petition from the Booksellers of London on Friday
night last, in which it was stated that if the taxa-
tion was reduced their correspondence would increase to the
extent of twenty thousand, and in some cases fifty thousand
letters a year. There would certainly be a necessity for a
considerable extension of the Post-office, and the employment
of a greater number of sorting clerks; but Mr. IL Hill had
pointed out a mode by which a great saving might be effected
in another department, that of the accountants. He pro-
tested against the slighting and disingenuous manner in
which Mr. Hill's plan was treated.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said nothing could be
more fatal than a sudden and great reduction of the
revenue, and more particularly if it should be found here-
after to be impracticable to carry the plan into effect.
The revenue of the said Post-office at present was (he un-
derstood) at least 60,000/. a-year ; and he thought that the
Government had acted wisely in not hazarding thesacrifice of
that revenue on one experiment.
Lord BROUGHAM wished to disabuse the House on this sub-
ject. It was a mistake to suppose the plan of the Government
was to be an experiment of Mr. Hill's plan. It had just
enough of resemblance to Mr. Hill's plan to make the public
suppose that the plan had a trial, aid in the event of a failure
to enable the opponents of the plan to say that it had failed
It was not even an experiment of degrees. In no one way
could it be said that it was a step towards carrying out the
details of Mr. Hill's plan. It bore, to be sure, a resem-
blance to it, but he denied it carried with it its important fea-
tures. He denied that Mr. R. Hill's plan included general and
second post letters ; and he was satisfied that enquiry would
prove that his calculation of 80 millions was right. The
Noble Lord had asserted that Mr. Hill had made
no allowance for the increased expense, but their Lordships
would find that he had allowed nearly 230,0001 for that
purpose ; the remaining sum required to be obtained by an
improved management. He had another petition to the
same effect from the merchants, bankers, and other respectable
inhabitants of Wolverhampton, and one from the Coinmission-
ers of Police of Gorbals.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from
the Society of Friends, representing tL•e Quakers of England
and Wales against the Municipal Offices Declaration Bill, on
the ground that it did not reach their case. _ _ _

in whicl Mr. Hill's sugge.stions tvre embodied, it
nas recommended that stamp corers should be is-
sued by the Post-office one penny to carry everything under
an ounce weight not only for the short distances of three

milts, but for-twelve miles round the environs of London.

MUNICIPAL, OFFICERS' DECLARATION BILL.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE the

House went into Committee on this Bill.

Lord BROUGHAM had a very material amendment to
propose, which would affect the title of the Bill ; briefly, it
was that the measure ought not to be confined to the Quakers,
Moravians, and Separatists; there were various other sects,
who must be excluded from many civil offices unless they
chose to run the risk of a Bill of Indemnity not being passed.
As the law at present stood, it appeared as though they made,
laws merely for the purpose of having them broken, or 4 at least
with the certainty that they would be broken, and with the in-
tention of making up the breach by passing yearly a Bill of
Indemnity for those who may have broken the laws. The re-
lief proposed to be given was applicable to all who had similar
conscientious scruples, and lae knew no reason why the
Quakers, Moravians, or Separatists, should have been se-
lected to receive that relief. But that was not the worst;
the law required men to take upon them certain offices ;
so that with one hand it compelled them to discharge du-
ties, whilst, with the other, it prevented them, under heavy
penalties, from undertaking them. He might be answered
that it was better to provide for those classes in a sepa-
late Bill. For his own part, he could see no reason why
all Dissenters having similar conscientious scruples should
not be included in one Bill ; but if the object were to draw
any distinction would it not be better to say at once, " You
must not entertain any hope ; here our toleration stops—we
admit Quakers, Moravians, Separatists : bat we exclude
Jews, Cameronians, and others ? " There seemed, however,
to be a sort of feverish anxiety to get a Bill of some kind hur-
ried through. It mattered not whether it were well framed ;
wheiter it went as far as it ought or not ; but a Bill they must
have. Was it not, however, consulting more the dignity of
their Lordships as legislators to give out at once a full and
satisfactory measure of relief, instead of doling it out by de-
grees, as the case might seem more urgent? The Noble
Lord concluded by moving that, after the words " Quakers,
Moravians, Separatists," the words " and others" be added ;
and that certain words at the commencement of the declara-
tion be omitted, for the purpose of inserting " Every person
having conscientious scruples against taking an oath, or a de-
claraticn in the nature of an oath."

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY doubted whether they
could agree to that amendment, because it was'not their own
BM.

Lord BROUGHAM entertained no doubt as to the right
of the House to extend or increase the Bill as much as they
thought proper.
Lord HOLLAND thought that, although he was in favour
of the amendment, they must krr enough in the Bill not to
be considered as wandering altog her out of the scope of the
measures sent up by the Commons. He believed, as far as
it went, the Bi:1 was founded on benevolent and just inten-
tions ; at the same time, he felt, with his Noble and Learned
Friend, that the 13i1l did not go far enough. He should,
however, be disposed to accept the Bill if the) could not get
anything better. He would much rather have that Bill
passed, confined as it was to the description of Quakers, Me-
ravians, and Separatists, than no Bill at all. Still he enter-
tained a great objection to calling on men to declare what
was their religious faith—calling upon them to give nicknames
to their own sects. A man was called upon to declare him-
self a Quaker or a Separatist. How could they tell that he
was in reality a Quaker ? They could not, he supposoi,
bring any overt act of quaking.—(Laughter.) As to tke
Separatists, he knew no reason why a Jew might not call
himself a Separatist ; at any rate, these were Separatists who,
having belonged to the Established Church, afterwards left it.
He therefore supportod the amendment of his Noble and
Learned Friend.

The other part of the plan was, that there should be a stamp-
cover for twopence to carry any weight not exceeding sir
°tine( s, and that suggestion was founded on the re-
presentations of the London publishers, who wished to have
this means of transmitting pamphlets and other light publica-
tions to the country.'llis R;ght Hon. Fr the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, did not intend to carry these suggestions into
effect in the way proposed, hut he intended to issue: penny
stamp covers for the short distances, and to reduce the four-
penny post to twopence. The Noble Lord said in conclusion that
he was ready to admit that this was a departure from Mr. Hill's
plan, but he thought that the safer way of making the experiment.
Lord LICHFIELD would certainly have been better pre-
pared if the Noble and Learned Lord bad given notice of his
intention to have made such statements, to have met them by
counter-statemonts. There were one or two points in the
Noble and Learned Lord's calculations which w, re in
same degree incorrect, and which he could have set right
if he had brought down the returns which had been prepared
on the subject. What he (Lord Lichfield) had stated, was
that forty-two millions of chargeable letters passed through
the General Post-office ; and the way of ascertaining that was
not according to the mode stated by his Noble and
Learned Friend, which was, in reality, Mr. Row-
land Hill's plan. The way is which Mr. Hill
calculated was, that about ten millions of letters passed through
the General ?ost, which, being multiplied by four, the calcu-
lated increase would amount to forty millions. He then took
ten millions of Twopenny Post letters, which he had multi-
plied by four, and that made the eighty-eight millions of
letters; but their Lordships must be aware that there was no
Twopenny Post throughout the country, and Mr. Hill had no
right to multiply the Twopenny Post circulation four times.
If Mr Hill went to bring his plan to a fair test, he had no
right to join the Twopenny and General Post together.
They were distinct Departments, and therefore the Revenue
derived from the Post Office being so much, and the Post-let-
ters being so many, according to that statement, the expense
of transmitting letters by the Establishment, amounted to
about one Shilling on the conveyance of each letter. Mr.
Rowland Hill stated that the expense of conveyance was, only
a penny 1-16th, and he calculated upon 136 millions of news-
papers and letters passing through the Gcneral Post.
Take away the newspapers, and then the calculations of Mr.
Hill came very near those of the Post office. Mr. Hill had
not provided for any increase in the establishment, which
would be rendered absolutely necessary by the great increase
in the bulk. In titan» the charge on the Post-office by the rail-
ways would be by weight, and there was no hope that the charge
for transmission by such conveyance would be at all reduced.
The transmission of letters now cost the Post-office 100,0001.,
that was about the amount for mail-coach contracts and
horsing—that was for the conveyance of 40 millions of charge-
able letters, That was the fallacy of Mr. Hill's plan, these
chargeable letters paid for the transmission of all those
which went free. He had seen a statement made
by his Noble and Learned Friend a few nights ago, in which
it appeared !o have been triumphantly asked, as the news-
papers were in such numbers, now conveyed at the charge of
a penny, why cannot tho whole correspondence of the
country be conveyed at as cheap a rate ? His Noble
and Learned Friend, as well as Mr. Hill, appeared
to have forgot that his forty millions of chargeable letters paid
for the transmission of all franked letters and newspapers, but
he had not calculated the great increase which must
take place in consequence of the great increase in
bulk, n
' in weight. They would have
to carry twelve as much in weight, and, there-
fore, the charge for transmission, instead of 100,0001. as
acb consequently,
timesent
e seqly
now, must be twelve times that amount. Neither was there
the slightest chance of any decrease in the number of
clerks in the Post-office. Thirty thousand letters passing
though the Post-office on one night was now heavy, along with
fifty thousand or sixty thousand newspapers, and all came
in within a few hours of being transmitted ; but if they were
increased to ten times the number which they would require
to be if reduced to a penny, they would require sorters able
to sort 300,000, in place of 30,000, within two or three hours
within tho post leaving. Besides, supposing the plan carried
into effect, and such an increase had taken place, the
present establishment would not be large enough.
He (the Earl of Litchfield) had always stated his opinion to
be that a very considerable reduction of rates might take place
without serious injury to the revenue ; but, at the same
time, he certainly thought, that if the peril of Mr. Hill's
plan were departed from, you must surely depart
from his principle, because his principle was based on one
uniform rate of postage being adopted, and that must be a very
low rate, so as to satisfy all parties from one end of the
kingdom to the other, the postage at the same time
being paid beforehand. With regard to what his Noble and
Learned Friend stated with respect to Mr. Rowland
Hill's plan, this was no trial. (Hear, hear.) Where
the rate was the same, it could be no trial of a plan proposing
to reduce the rate to ono penny. He had never had any other
object in attempting to prove the erroneous calculations of
Mr. Hill, further than that he was satisfied the revenue
would lose very largely by it.
The Earl of RADNOR agreed with what had fallen from

The Bishop of LONDON said that there was no sacrifice
of principle by permitting people to make a declaration in-
stead of an oath. But if either of the amendments that night
propcsed should be adopted the principle of the requisite pro-
fession of Christianity was given up at once.—( Hear, hear.)
They were no other than propositions to do away with all dis-
tinctions whatever in making declarations. He had no objec-
tion to admit the Quaker or Moravian to the privilege the Bill
proposed to give th,m ; but he did object, at this period of the
Session, to the a,tempt now made to introduce by a sidewind
such an alteration in the law relating to municipal 'offices—
( Hear, hear)—and he hoped that their Lordships would post-
pone the point, or at all events abstain from giving any assent
to either of the propositions of the Noble Lord who had just
addressed the House. He would only observe that, with re-
ference to the observations of the Noble Baron (Lord Holland)
as to the word" Quaker," that that word might be omitted,
and the words " Society of Friends" substituted in its place.
As to Separatists, he was not aware that there were more than
one or two descriptions of them in England. They were
chiefly to be found in Ireland.
The Marquis of BUTE expressed his intention of 'giving his
support to the amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the Bill was
not brought in by her Majesty's Government ; it had been in-
troduced in the House of Commons for the purpose of re-
moving to a certain degree the evil of excluding particular
persons from voting at Municipal Elections owing to their
conscientious scruples. , In many of the largo towns there
were numbers of persons practically excluded from voting
upon those occasions. There had always been a difficulty
upon this subject with respect to persons whose precise per-
suasion it was not easy to fix ; but he hoped our laws would
never be construed so strictly as to affect such persons. He
did not wish to exclude any set of Separatists fr om any benefit
such a Bill as the present might give them, and would be
happy to concur with the Noble Marquis or the Noble and
Learned Lord in any remedies they might think fit to bring
forward with reference to other parties than those included in
the present Bill ; but would not go so far as to say that such
remedies ought to form part of a Bill sent up from the House
of Commons, of which the object was to relieve a particular
class of individuals.—( Hear, hear.) With these observa-
tions, and under these circumstances, he should find himself
compelled to oppose the amendment of the Noble and Learned
Lord.
Lord BROUGHAM said his Noble Friend had argued in
favour of his (Lord Brougham's) view of the case, and yet
said he would' vote against him. He had dashed the cup from
his lips just as be was about to taste it. He saw no va'id
reason for resisting his proposition, and yet he would vote
against it. In his (Lord Brougham's) opinion, great mischief
bad been done with reference to this question by separating
and distinguishing the classes to whom such relief as this Bill
conferred was due ; and he must confess that if he were a
Jew or Cameronian he should consider himself greatly ill_
treated by the Legislature making this invidious distinction
in relieving one class of Separatists and refusing the same
relief to another. He should consider himself worse off by
this Bill than be was before. He did not consider the Bill
in -its present shape worth the parchment on which it was
about to be engrossed, for even those for whose relief it was
intended would not take advantage of it--( Hear, hear)—for
Quakers and Moravians would have as many objections to it
as they had to the system at present prevailing. Again, the
persons whom it included in its provisions were of limited
numbers, whereas those classes excluded from its operation
were spread all over the country and were very numerous.
The Marquis of L A NSD 0 WNE explained.
Lord HOLLAND considered that the course adopted by
his Noble Friend was the one most likely to insure the passing
of this measure.

The Bishop of LONDON said that so long as the union
between the Christian religion and civil policy should exist,
the principle ought to be maintained which was comprised in
all declarations, viz. that of asking individuals making such
declarations whether they believed in the Christian religion.
The' amendment of Lord Brougham was then put and ne-
gatived without a division.
The Bill passed through a Committee, and the Report was
ordered to be received to-morrow (this day.)
Lord BROUGHAM then gave notice that he should to-
morrow put some questions to the Node Lord at the head of
the Colonial Department.
The LORD CHANCELLOR remained on the Woolsack to a

quarter past 8, expecting, it was understopd, the arrival of the
Civil List Bill and other Bills from the Commons. Lord
Melbourne, Lord Holland, and other Lords also remained in
the House. The expected Bills, however, not having arrived,
their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter past Eight.