The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-26 00:00:00

VENUES BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL —Before moving the
Second Reading of this Bill, Sir, I beg leave to move
that the Clerk do read those parts of the speeches from
the Throne at the opening of the last three Secsions
relating to Church Reform.
The Clerk havine read the passages alluded to,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I wished, Sir, to have
those pas_ages read, in order to show the House that
the subject of Church Reform has been under the
consideration of various Governments, first, under the
Government of Lord Grey ; and secondly, the question
was considered by the Government of Sir R. Peel, from
whose Government emanated the Commission whose
recommendation the present Bill is ; and lastly, that it
has formed the subject of consideration of Lord
Melbourne's Government upon former occasions.
I wish to point the attention of the House to these re•
commendations, because in the several discussions which
have taken place o❑ this subject. It seems to have been
doubted whether a measure for rendering more efficient

the establishment, has not emanated from any one
holding a high situation in the Government. The
Bill which I have now the honour to move
has the recommendation of the Church Commission,
and has the sanction of the two Archbishops, the Bishop
of London, and at least two other eminent Prelates of
the Church. This Bill then, Sir, comes with as high
authority, both political anti ecclesiastical, as any one
that has ever hem presented to this House. As the
subject Was much discussed during the last Session
I shall not do more than take a short retrospect
of what has been done by former Governments. One
-of the greatest evils, and one which was com-
mented upon by every writer upon the subject, was
the great inequality that existed in the revenues of
the Bishops. In 1803, before the measure upon that
subject passed, the income of the Sec of Durham
amounted to `21,000/., while another See was worth

1 1,000/., and some Bishops ws•er:; in receipt of uo more
than from 900/. to 1,200/. Rochester, at the same time,
was worth 1,500/„ while Exeter and Hereford,
were Worth from 2,0001. to 3,0001. each. The conse-
quence of this inequality was that benefices were
attached to the Sees, and held in commendam by the
Bishop, and that system was much condemned. The
time of the Bishop was considered to be fully occupied
by the duties of m., Bishopric, and he would have no time
to attend to the duties of a parish.—( Hear, hear.)
One of the first measures, theretnre, recommended

by the Government, was one which in some
measure equalises the revenues of Bishops.—(Hear.)
In consequence of this measure the income of the
I Bishop of Durham had been reduced -from upwards
of 20,000/. a year to 8,000/. The next measure to
: which the attention of Parliament was directed was to
the much litigated subject of tithes. The revenue of the
Clergy from tithes, was of a nature that exposed them
to constant'• quarrels vv;th their parishioners ; that made
their incomes uncertain, and which placed them in a
repulsive position with regard to the parties whose
spiritual
has
wants they administered to. The Com-
mission been now in operation more than two
years and a half, and has commuted tithes of
parishes to the number of 2,190 giving an income to the
holders of tithes of about 750,0001. I will not insist
upon any calculations which I might make with
regard to the income which had by that means
been secured to the clergy ; but what I do
insist on is, that by this measure the clergy
are receiving art income far more valuable in
the greater number of instances than they previously
wet e, and although the arrangement is so far disadvan-
tageous to them, that they cannot exercise that right
which they certainly had, of pressing upon the agricul-
turists, and requiring one-tenth of any increased income
arising- from the increased productiveness of the land ;
still they received a certain income without dispute or
quarrel, and in most cases beyond what they formerly
received.—( Hear.) The next measure was a measure
recommended not by the present Government, but by
the Government in connection with the Church Com-
mission. With regard to benefices and pluralities, this
was one of the most crying evils—(Hear)—and any
Hon. Member a ho takes up the book which I hold in
my hand—the Clerical Guide for 1836—will see that
many clergymen hold more than one living ; and that,
in short, 1,200 [ersons have no less than five different
preferments in the Church, and that a greater number
had two or three each. The Bill of last year enacted
that no clergyman should, in certain cases, hold two
livings, and nat more than one Cathedral preferment
consistent with oue living, and that if one happened to be
worth more than 1,0001. a-year, he should not hold two.
Various other alterations were proposed respecting
glebe-houses, and many great changes regarding non-
residents and plurality.—( Hear, hear, and order, order.)
—[The confusion arising from the conversation of
Members entering or departing, or preparing to leave,
was so great that for several minutes at a time it was
absolutely impossible for those in the gallery to collect
the entire of any sentence delivered by the Noble Lord.]
Considering the very great outcry that has been raised
twainst what were termed the overgrown wealth and
indolence of the Church, I think it must be admitted
that the object of the measure now introduced is not so
much to restrain privileges as to prevent abuses.—
( Hear, hear.) It will not interfere with any financial
arrangements, except those which one of the most able
of the clergy of the Established Church has said
to be the source of weakness and not of strength
in the Church. Let it not then be said that
the measure now recommended to Parliament proposes
any enactment really injurious to the interests of the
Church.—(Hear.) I now come more directly, Sir, to the
provisions of the measure before the House. Amongst its
leading objects are the intention of regulating Cathedral
dignitaries, and that an increase should be made to the
incomes of very small livings, and also to the revenues
of clergymen doing duty in populous places, and not
hitherto receiving adequate remuneration. According
to the calculations of the Church Commissioners, the
increments proposed to be made would not be extrava-
gant. The additions (we understood the Noble Lord
to say) would be confined to incomes from 300/. to
1,0001. a year. Where the population is 10,000, it
is proposed that the income of the clergyman should
not be under 4001., .and that the lowest should not
be under 1501. The aggregate funds required to make
those proportionate additions IN ould be 145,495/. ; but. t
,
allowing for certain supplies that would arise from d
minutions in some quarters, 130,495/. would still
be
required. The Church Commissioners have also stated
that in the dioceses of London, York, and Winchester,
there is a large number of the population destitute of
spiritual instruction. It is the earnest recommen-
dation of the Church Commissioners and the
intention of the measure now before the House that
means should be provided for an adequate supply of
those deficiencies. As regards Oxford, it would be im-
possible to spend more money in clerical incomes (so
the Noble Lord was understood to speak). I believe
the spirit that now actuates Parliament. is to sec that be-
fore the incomes of the smaller livings in the country are
increased—before new incomes are instituted—no part
of the really necessary income of the Church should be di-
minished, but at the same time that none of those incomes
not necessary for the due adequate maintenance of the
clergy should be continued. The great object is to have
the services of the clergy duly secured to the flock

and effectively performed. Acting upon these views,
the Church Commissioners examined the Cathe,dral
foundations ; they found that on many of the
old foundations there have been found Pre-
bendal-lea and Canons not resident, but hold-
ing preferments, and performing at the same time
in those places to which they were supposed to be per-
sonally attached, only such duties as one sermon in the
year, or some other equally unfatiguing service. One
of the-objects of this measure is to promote for the due
Cathedral service, and to secure the attendance of cler-
iety and zeal, by securing
vreen of distinguish 11).4cquatc incomes.—(Hear.)
diem in the possession of a
Proceeding on these grounds :.11£ Church Commission
unanimously agreed that it wouo be sufficient if a
Deacon and four Prebendiaries shoulJ be attached to
each Cathedral, by which means the service
would be duly performed.—(Hear, hear; hear\
There is nothing I have seen in the objections "PV 11 it'll
have been mentioned which have induced me to Alter
the opinions I entertained at that time. There may
be particular eases of hardship, but alto- 1
gether I do not think there would be any
way in which the object in view could be bet-
ter accomplished, than by the mode pointed out.—
(Hear, hear.) I have already stated that it would
have been impossible to have asked any great incretsee
of the funds of the Church, until these matters have been I
examined. There is another mode that might have
been proposed, and which seems in the first report to
have been considered—it is that mode which consists in
applying the tithes -and other revenues to the general
wants of the country. This plan was recommended by
the late Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry, than whom I
there never was a man more zealous or more at-
tentive to his duties. He recommended that where
tithes or other revenues are derived from a parish, 11
that at least one hundred a-year be reserved to that
parish, but that the remaining income be applied S
to the general wants of the Church. 'Without
laying down any scale, I may say I think the proposi-
tion of the Church Commissioners, is met by the 1
59th clause in the Bill which proposes to carry
into effect what the Bishop of Lichfield had
in contemplation. It is proposed in that clause 1.
that any sum derived from the diminution of
prebendaries and from sinecures should he applied, after
due consideration to the wants of the parishes in I
which they accrue, to the general wants of the 1
C';:tircli. In that manner the incomes to be derived
from these parts of the Church Establishment would be
made of very great use in the pastoral instruction of the
people. I have already stated that 130,4991. would be re-
quired to raise the livings to the scale which is mentioned
in one of the Reports of the Church Commission.
NMI', the total proceeds from this fund would be
134,2511., and therefore there would- be the means
from this fund of gradually supplying those pressing
wants. The wants are very extensive in some large
district; where there is an immense population. Un-
doubtedly this plan does not fitly provide for those
wants, but sacrifices will be made by those who
have pa4onage, and great exertions will be made on
the part of the people at large. The Hon. Member •
for Middlesex gave in one year 2,000/. for the erection •
of churches ; and there are great numbers who have
subscribed very largely to the increase of churches in
proportion to the increase of population ; but I do think .
if the Church had said, as it is proposed to say, by the
Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, We will
keep up every establishment of the Church—we will
keep up 20 Chapters in one place, and 15 or 16 in
another—we will keep up all the sinecures in the
Chuich—l think it would then be hopeless for in-
dividuals to make any efforts.—(Hear.) With respect
to various other objections that have been made to this
Bid, I do not think it necessary now to enter into them
at length. Whenever they are specifically stated, I
shell be ready to meet them. There is one which I
certainly think it is impossible to raise now. It is said
that Parliament ought not to deal with these matters
at all, or to attack the revenues of the Church. I be-
lieve such a course of conduct would he totally incon-
sistent with the whole practice of legislation, horn the
earliest age to the present day. There has been con-
stantly that connexion between Church and State that
while the State had considerable influence over the
1 Church, and while the Government gave support to the
Church, Parliament has, from time to time, regulated
1 the affairs of the Church. There are, no doubt, other
questions stated by the Chapters,. with respect to any
diminution of their numbers ; but I think, on examining
their statemect,the Chapters they describe are not those
which actually exist. There is another suggestion stated
in one of the pamphlets on the subject, that persons
pound to all
holding stalls in cathedral towns might /3
the parishes in the diocese, and the parishionei:s would
thus hear from one of the dignitaries those doe.. rifles
which they now hear from the parish preachers. / :10 1
not think if this were done it would be either agreeable
to the incumbent, or that the dignitaries themselves I
would think they were justified in asking the incum-
bent to (rive up his pulpit to their use.—(Hear, hear.) fi
I don't know that on the second reading of the Bill 1
need gO into any farther topics than I have now done.
I have stated the general outline of the Bill, and have
. not stated the details. The Bill is a Bill which has inr
its principle the placing cathedral establishments in what
the Church Commission considered an efficient, forrn—
in what the Archbishop of Canterbury and other Pre-
hates considered an efficient form, and at the same time
procurit.g a considerable sum for the supply of
those spiritual wants which are so manifest. As
that is a Reform which it is thought would
tend to increase the affections of the peoplo
towards the Church Establishment, as I believe they
would not lose anything that is really of use to them,
and that they would gain much by setting this exirep."
I trust the House will have nodroiffincougleteo'
of the
he
giving
sanction to the principle of the Bill. Certainly
if the
patronage of the Crown or the put
had been considered, no scheme of the kind would 11°1)5
been proposed. There is a sacrifice made onthe pat lay('
of the Croon, of upwards of 50,0004 and there is t
con-
siderable sacrifice on the part of the Bishops, a
not propose
,this Bill with a view to tlie •
rests of the Clown, or with a view to the inttricersitnsloci
the beads of the Church, but with a view to
the efficiency and usefulness of' the Church Establish-
merit. I beg, Sir, to move the second reading of this
Bali.

Tne SPEAKERhasingput the question,

Sir ROBERT INGLI-S said that the present
measure certainly wanted that kind of consistency in
its provisions, which, if it had not redeemed it in his 1
eyes, certainly would have rendered it less objection-
able. lie would proceed to the consideration of this '
Bill, in this way : admitting the spiritual destitution
of large districts, admitting the right of Parliament to
interfere, he would deny the propriety, he might al-
most sa3 the legality, of the measure proposed. Would
a)ceti
jit be considered consistent with law, or with the pria-
ciples upon which they were to act, if for the sake of
rehoing temporal destitution in St. Giles's the inhabitants
of other parishes were rz.quiredto surrender their property?
Because there was destitution in the
puruoliu
rtv rin
of
es,
ma
districts it would not be just to apply the property of a
Dean and Chapter 100 miles distant to that object.
Ile (Sir R. Inglis) considered this Bill to be a ceinfi.3
cation of property—it was taking away e
c e I e s i a s t i c ilk:
take
bdtoihsdteireipsbrutpi withoutredistribution,
butoaf any 3t'ibtaelwl epagsaeitani
no
en
ft,:neoedrt itshp:oep,i,tii 5.,, tr:
without any proof, of offence on their part. It mi,;1,,-
btieorcia"ilteod t'a
of Exeter and apply it to the religious necessities of
Chichester. This Bill was not in conformity with the
original recommendations of the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission. The Bill did not tend "to render
the several cathedral and collegiate churches
more conducive to the interests of the Estab-
lished
Church." This object would be effected by any
measure tending to promote the efficiency of these
establishments, but not by taking away their resources.
He (Sir R. Inglis) hoped that the feeling of hostility
against the Established Church which might have
existed was now greatly diminishing, and that the nation
was fast returning from the state, it might almost be
termed, of temporary insanity with regard to the II
Church.—(A laugh.) He was sure that for the last
five or six years there had been an increasing attach-
ment to the principles of the Church—an increased
sense of its value, and of the obligation to im-
prove its efficiency.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") A
distinction had been drawn between the inviolability of
the property of the Church, and of private persons—.
distinction, no doubt, between the private
person, the Church ; but he had •
that principle he never could adm ipt.ropTerhtyeroefwaasprsivonatee
person, and the property . . _
Dean and
,t. the
s.ptrhi nee ispalme
same, whether
upon whichit the
d Th
Clain, stom:iere was no
propertyntained
difference in the titles by which the Chapter
of Hereford, and the Corporation of London held their
rethstaetd
spected a lay body, or a spiritual body.
. properties. It would be as unjust to take
respective
•
the property of the Cathedral of Westminster, and ap-
ply it to the religious wants of Truro, as it would be to
-take the dock dues of Liverpool, and apply them to the
repairs
' of the town of Dover. The title of the Dean
and Chapter of Durham to their Church property was as
good as the title of the Earl of Durham to his coal property.
The tamest that could be procured from the confiscation
effected by this Bill was 30,0001.—(Lord J. Russell--
" A-year.") Was it clear that by diminishing the num-
ber of the dignitaries of the Church, its efficiency would
be improved—seeing that those dignities,perhaps, proved
something of an attraction to some who might have en.
tered the Church out of no strong personal religious
feeling, but whose beneficence might bring great wealth
into the Church. the whole income of the Church ~,a,
not more than three millions three hundred thousand
pounds a-year, and it was possible that full that sum was
brought into the Church every year by the independent
property of it'sdignitaries, applied in those charities
which tended to render the Clergy objects of affection
and respect. He (Sir Robert Inglis) kne.w several
instances in which dignitaries of the Church had
either left by legacy or given by donation, very 1 -;-
e
sums to the Church. The Hon. Bart. then read an extract
from a pamphlet written by a member of the Dean and
Chapter of Hereford, in which there was a strong
ap-
peal on behalf of those ecclesiastical bodies-.and the
expression of a belief that the attacks which were made