The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-20 00:00:00

granted for the purposes of education, nor did he agree \
that the whole controul and superintendence should be
left with the Treasury.—( [dear, hear.) It was not
sufficient merely to see that the money was applied
in the building of schools, the principal, the most import.
ant object was properly to regulate the school itself,
the mind of the school—the teacher.—(But his main ob-
jection to the proposed system was that the the money
being granted only in proportion to the amount of contri-
butions from the various districts, that the inhabitants of I
the poorer districts would suffer in comparison with those
of the wealthier. Ho thought the best system would be
to unite two great powers, the central and local power.
The central p )wer would communicate information to the
different schools, and the local power would act in concur-
rsnce and association with it. There was scarcely a ci-
vilised country in Europe in which some such system as
that had not been acted on with success. Greece, Prussia,
Russia, Sweden, Germany, and even some of the States
of North America had adopted it. The next question
was, how was this Government Beard to act ei the coun-
try ? The objection to the Government plan seemed to
rest on the construction of the Central Beard. It had
been taken for granted that the system which the Govern-
ment proposed, was to be universally followed out through
the country. Ile had seen no evidence that it was their
intention to unite all the diff,rant s 'ets in the same school ;
but he ( Mr. Wyse) was of opinion that if they were to have
men without prejudices, they ought to avoid instilling pre-
judices into the minds of children. He would prefer dif-
ferent schools fur different sects, if the House would be
sufficiently liberal to grant the money ; but if not, he
would say, educate the people at any rate.—(Hear. )
Ile could not imagine why there should be such difficulties
in the way of religious education, merely because one sect
might c'iff.o- from another. The question was not whether
they were to sanction one version of the Bible or another—
the money was not to be paid for a Catholic version of
the Bible, but for the combined instruction of the scholars
Whose money was it ? Ile knew it had been said that the
moment the money got into the Treasury, the majority of
the nation being Pso•mstant, it waa the money of the
State. He protested against that principle.—( Hear.)
Those who spoke of Protestantism alone, were very liberal
in jails and Coercion Bills for the Catholics.—( Hear. )
If the system projected was likely to produce evils here, '
why had they not occurred in Prussia, in America, and
in Holland? He regarded the objections which were now
urged as prejudices, which would gradually -disappear
under a better system of education.—c Hear, hear.) The
cause which he now advocated must still advance, for it
was a righteous and a jest cause, and he might say as
Galileo once did, " it still moves on."—(Cheers.)
Mr.COLQUHOUN said the question before the House
was simply this—not as stated by the Hon. Member op.
posite, merely to establish a Spiritual Board, and the ap-
cenciancy of a Church—but whether they would persevere
in a system of education which had been adopted for six
years—a system which had produced tangible and useful
effects, or whether they would introduce a new system
wholly alien to the Constitution of the country—(on, oh)
—unknown within the precincts of Great Britain, and if
tried in Ireland, tried under circumstances so different
from those which prevailed in this country, that no ana-
logy could be drawn between one case and the other. What
was applicable to Ireland was wholly inapplicable here.—
(Hear,
hear.) The Board of E Itteation did not give satis.
• faction to any class. The Church of England decidedly
objected to it, and the friends of religious liberty recently
passed a resolution stating they were anxious that the Go-
vernment should return to the old system of committing the
plan to the charge of the two Societies, and not introduce this
change which was EC uncalled for.—( Hear, hear.) The
Wesleyan Methodists, it was also known, were decidedly
oppose'd to the proposed plan. He was convinced that so 1
long as the Board of Privy Council existed, and had such
great powers over the education f.l the people of this
country, so long the people would be justified 'n enb r a'n-
b-sg a salutary jealousy. —( Hear, hear.) The Central
Society had recommended that the Government aid should
not be confined to grants for building school-houses, but
extend to payment of schoolmasters, and such was the
course which the Noble Lord had followed. But the
C entr. 1 Society wished the Noble Lord to go on by degrees,
and eventually, the incompttence of the Privy Council
Beard would Im so apparent that the appointment of paid
Commissioners would be recommended. And the rosult
might soon be, thst it would be proposed that the children
should be sent compulsorily to the schools—that the system
might be truly " national." It had been said, in-
deed, that the new plan was but a recurrence to the ancient
system. Why not, then, put an end to the novel and ob-
,jectionab'e powers of the Privy Council Board?' Why not
I return to the present very satisfactory regulations of the
Treasury Board? The great virtue of the Treasury
rules was, that they imperatively called forth from
different districts kcal exertions and contributions.
Ile admitted, indeed, that there might be cases in which
the districts were too poor to make any exertions for them-
selves.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) But 1
the present system ought to be duly persevered in till
these cases were more clearly shown, without resorting to
an untried plan. lincicr the existing system instruction
was provided for upwards of two millions of children
.I'
Hoe. Members were dissatisfied with the pace at wh:cli edu
' cation now advanced, ahy not propose an aueinentation of
the education grants? \Vhy forsake the s)stetn utilsr
which a large amount of practical benefit was effected, for
one utterly vague, uncertain, and ebjectionable ? The new
system would exclude from its benefit all that large class
of 'Dissenters, and those attached to the Established
Church, who would not submit to a plan which placed the
! education of the country under the superintendance of a
Board which had not as yet settled its own principles
upon the subject —( Hear, hear.) The Government
had not abandoned the late scheme, they had
only postponed it.—.( Hear, hear.) It was recom-
mended by the Government that a schema should ba
adopted by which al difficulties should be obviated through
excluding all disputed points of theology. But unto the
great doctrines of Chri-stianity (which were all disputed by
differ, nt sects) were inculcated upon the children, no real
benefit would be secured. But it was the master who
( formed the habits of the children. What religion was the
1
master to be ? He must be a man of no religion, or he
would impress his peculiar views on the minds of the
children. What would the Noble Lord do with the
1 rector of his model school ? Was he to be silent on
religion ? Would not the children regard religion with
utter indifference when they saw the small attention that was
paid to it. He would protest against this system, which
he trusted never would meet with the approbatiorrof this
House. The Noble Lord stated the first scheme was
postponed until he should find greater concurrence in his
scheme. \Vhy only last year the Noble Lord stated that
it was impossible to reconcile the differences existing
among various religious denominations, so as to form a
I united system- of education, yet now he comes forward
with such a scheme, and perhaps by the same means he
might he enabled to discover a greater concurrence of opi-
nion, and force his first scheme on the country.__( Cheers. )
Mr. WYSE explained.
Mr. C. BULLER thought that those who valued
general education might congratulate themselves on this
that all the arguments brought forward on the other side
resolved themselves into an unconquerable aversion to
every system of education. He was not going to defend
the Government plan against the Noble Lord, the Mem-
ber for North Lancashire, who had bestowed on his former
friends and colleagues some of those observations which he
supposed he must look upon in the light of tender remi-
eiscences.—( A laugh.) Ile regretted that the Govern-
ment had, with a view of softening opposition, got rid in
the second scheme of much that was good in their first.
But there was good still remaining iu it, on account of
which every friend of civil and religious liberty ought to
rally round it ; that it recognised the principle that the
education of the people was not a matter that should
be left to the voluntary principle, but that it was
of vital interest to all classes of the community.
But the Noble Lord shoud recollect that the
imprudent step which he had taken was likely to effect a
more important service still to this question; by forcing
the House to vote on this amendment, this were in fact
forcing them to declare whether they would annul the
onlysteps that any Government had ever taken in this
country to promote the education of the people. Whether
they would annul it upon the ground that the Fate could
only administer education under the tF- ablisliment and if
they could not do that under that sulerintend cie they
could not do it all. This proposition, he was sure, would
be resisted successfully, unless he mistook the character
of his countrymen. He was not going to trouble the House
by entering into an examination of what had taken place
in a former debate, nor would he venture to deal with the an-
tiquarian lore of the Noble Lord: he would leave to him all the
credit he could get from what was stated by the Chief
Justice in the reign of Henry the 4th, but this he would
say, that the system of education in this country was not
to be regulated by what had been done by a bigoted old
barbarian, whose chief employment was the burning of
Lollards.—( flea:, hear.) He would take the Noble Lord's
doctrine, that the education of the country should be con-
ducted under the Established Church, on its own merits.
Lord STANLEY—I never said anything of the kind

Mr. C. BULLF.R. would appe 11 to any Honourable
Member, who had listened to the Noble Lord, whether he
did not advance the doctrine from which he now with-
drew ?—( Hear, hear.) The objection he had to the
Noble Lords doctrine was twofold. The doctrine of giving
education through the Established Church was another
way of throwing overboard education altogether. The
Established Church bad no machinery for education.—
(Hear, hear.) What portion, he would ask, of the large
funds of the Church was set apart for education ? What
situation did the schoolmaster occupy in the Church of
England'—( Hear.) The endowments set apart at the
Reformation for the purposes of education had been per-
verted for the purpose 3 of sinecures. —( Hear.) What
had been the effect of leaving education in the hands of
' the Established Church ? Why, a large class of the people
were left entirely without education. If the Church was
in earnest about the question of education, it would
devote part of its revenues to so laudable a pur-
' pine. The effect of basing education upon religion
was to defraud the people of instruction altogether. The
great object he had in rising was to state his opinions
upon one point connected with this question. The sub-
ject of public instruction was never rightly treated when
it was spoken of as a barn to be given to the people by
way of charity for conforming to the Established Church.
lie would grant that education was the highest privilege
of a free man, but the Legislature should look upon the
education of the people as a precaution against crime. It
was the ebullition of ignorance that caused the disturbances
in Kent, of which Thom was at the head ; it was the same
thing that made theta disciples of Mr. Stephens in the
tong that it ar,
/tributcd the hear)—and to the same cause was to be at-
millions of Chartists.—( Hear, hear.) Such
were_ the instructors that were left by the Church for the
people ; some took their instructions from the lunatic gaol-
bird, in whose resurrection they believed—( Hear, hear)—
others from those who asserted that it was the right of
every man in England to have reasonable wages, and to
enforce them by the dagger and the ike, and others
from the Chartists, who taught the doctrinep that profits were
were impel deduction from the wages of the labourer.
v.r_(itr so n
ar
w,.) Such were the instructors given to the
people; it u-a., proposed to send the school-
hen and now when
`master . amorig/theru the Noble Lord the Member for
Neill] Lancashire, and the members of the Church, at-