The Sun.
London, England, 1837-06-10 00:00:00

that kind, having those objects in view ; but at the
same time, supporting the Government with as fa-
vourable an eye as possible.—( Hear, hear.) But in
what situation did the Ministers of this country stand?
Had the Ministers of this country ever stood in such a
position in any former period of our history ? To whom
did they look for support ? They looked for support
to the enemies of the Protestant Establishment in

Ireland ; they relied for support on those who were the
declared enemies of the Protestant Church in England.
—(Cheers.) Their main stay and support were the politi-
cal dissenters. Deprive them of the aid and support of
one or the other of those bodies, and what would become
of them ?—(Cheers.) The Government felt their
power would then be gone, and that they would
no longer have the power of supporting themselves ;
and he repeated that this was the first timst in the his.
tory of our country, that the Government of this country
depended for its exclusive support on the declared enemies
of the Protestant Church.—(Cheers.) Where was this
to stop ? Concession led to still further concession, ac-
cording to the general course of events. Give them a
part of the spoil of the Church ; assist them in the op-
pression of the Church up to a certain point ; and you
encouraged them to further demands. Where would

the Noble Viscount stop in his recklps career ?—( Hear,
hear.) What were they told by certain individuals ?
Why, that they only received what was offered them in
part payment of what they demanded—( Hear)—that they
would receive it as an instalment of their just, demands—
and that they would never cease agitating, that they
would never cease convulsing the empire, until they had
attained the whole of the objects they had in view.
They were told that in order to tranquillize Ireland, they
must concede the demands of those who agitated it ; and
if they were not contented then, that they should go on con-
ceding till they were satisfied—they were told this by one of
the Ministers of the Crown, not the least able member
of the Cabinet to which he belonged. What were those
demands now ? The prostration of the Church of Ire-
land, and the next would be the repeal of the Union.—
( Hear, hear.) He had formerly stated that nothing
could induce him to acquiLsce in passing the Bill as it
stood ; and when he saw that the qualification for electors
was a 51. qualification, he was not so insensible to what was
passing, as not to know this was HO qualification at all. What
was the cry ? Justice for Ireland, and the demand to place
her institutions on the same footing as those of Scotland,
and yet in the latter country the qualification in the smallest
town was one of 10/.—the qualification alone then would
induce him never to agree to the Bill. Then there was this
inconsistency in the Bill. Last Session an Act had been

passed which took from the magistracy in Ireland the ap-
pointment of police-constables, and transferred it to the
Lord-Lieutenant, and vet this measure gave the appoint-
ment of the constables to the Town-councils ; and
the jurisdiction of these was extended all over the counties
in which the boroughs were, and in some instances
beyond them.—( Hear.) Another objection he entertained
to the measure was the extraordinary patronage it created,
and the fact that their salaries were paid in amount at
the discretion of the Councils, who were also to have the
power of levying rates to any extent to maintain their own
power. Thus, agitators would exist throughout Ireland,
combining and corresponding with each other, which would
form these Corporations into formidable instrument; for
carrying out the designs of the patrons of the Bill.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Viscount had been
sometimes in the habit of philosophising in his observa-
tions, and had said more than once that bodies aiming
at more than legitimate power brought upon themselves
contempt. This might be the case in England, but not in
Ireland. The Noble Lord then quoted the observations
of Mr. O'Connell, to the effect that if the Ministerial Bill
were passed, he would be responsible for every thing else.
This was evidence of what would be the result of
such a measure passing into a law.—( Hear, hear.)
It had been stated that the criminal law would be much
more efficiently carried into effect after the passing of the
English Municipal Bill ; but as regarded Bristol, the con-
sequence had been that every criminal was now carried a
a distance of 30 miles at a great additional expense to the
country for the purpose of being tried before the Judge of
Assize, instead of as formerly before the Recorder of
Bristol. The Noble and Learned Lord here alluded by
name to the distinguished individuals who had formerly filled
the office of Recorder of Bristol. The Noble Viscount had
again stated that this Act would put an end to
party feuds and dissensions in England ; but he
held in his hand documents which had been trans-
mitted to him from various places, directly at variance
with these statements of the Noble Viscount. The Noble
and Learned Lord read extracts from the documents to which
he had referred, for the purpose of bearing out his state-
ments. It had been said that the people of Ireland desired
the extension of municipal institutions to that country, and it
was for the purpose ofendeavourina• to carry these wishes into
effect that lie now asked for a further extension of time.
By that time the Irish Church Bill, at present under dis-
cussion in the other House, would perhaps have been sent
up to their Lordships, and that being once satisfactorily
settled, one of the greatest obstacles to the passing of the
present measure would be removed. He would therefore
conclude by moving, as an amendment, to strike out the
word " now," for the purpose of substituting " the 3d of
July ;" and if it could be, satisfactorily shown to him that the
Bill would be sent up at an earlier day, he should have
no objection to alter his amendment.

Viscount MELBOURNE—Judging from the com-
mencement of the Noble and Learned Lord's speech, though
I WWI well aware he was going to make the motion with
which he concluded, yet I must own that, judging from the
commencement of the Learned Lord's speech, I did hope
that, on the general subject at least, he was about to adopt
a calm, cool, and dispassionate tone ; that he was about to
adopt a tone which would not be, altogether, otherwise than
conciliatory ; a tone exhibiting that fair and proper feeling
to which I beg to declare myself not at all insensible. I

am sorry to say that my hope has been disappointed.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord has in the
course of his speech used expressions, he has in the course
of his speech uttered sentiments, which, in my opinion,
are very little if any less objectionable—which are very
little if any less offensive—(Cheers)—which are very
little if any less likely to have a prejudicial effect on
the feelings of the two countries, than was that speech
which he delivered on a former occasion in this House
with such eminent success—(Loud cheers)—with so
much success in exciting indignation and passion—with
so much success in accumulating every difficulty and
obstacle possible in the way of a fair and conciliatory
conclusion of this subject.--(Much cheering.) 'What
does the Noble and Learned Lord say on the present oc-
casion? In the course of that invective in which he has
thought proper to indulge, he has said that those who com-
posed the Conservative meetings are the friends of the King
and Constitution ; while we, the Ministers, arc supported
by none but the enemies of the Constitution. What right
has he to make that assertion ?—(Great cheering.) What
right has the Noble and Learned Lord to make that charge?
—(Cheers.) Be they Roman Catholics or be they Dis-
senters, by what right does he assume that superiority of
character?—(The burst of cheers from the Ministerial
benches prevented us from hearing the conclusion of the
sentence.) What entitles him to assume that right to cen-
sure and condemn ? Is his character so high ?—(Cheers.)
13 his character so far above theirs—(Continued cheering)
—as to justify him in setting himself up as the censor of
others—(lienewed cheers)—as the censor and condemner
of such large masses of his fellow-subjects ?—(lmmense
cheering.)—l mean to speak nothing but what is respectful
of that Noble and Learned Lord.—(Much laughter from
both sides of the House.) I have always expressed a
great respect for his abilities ; and I repeat what I have
more than once in this House stated, that I confine my re-
spect strictly to his abilities.—(Repeated cheers.) Having
that respect for his abilities, I say it is not fitting—l say it
is not becoming the station which he has filled in this coun-
try--that he should cast this bitter censure on so large a
body of his fellow-countrymen, or his fellow-subjects.—
(Cheering and laughter.) But with respect to the question
which the Noble and Learned Lord has brought before the
'louse, I stated on a former occasion that I could not
concur in the grounds which the Noble and Learned Lord
has submitted for the postponement of the measure ; and
having objected to them on the sth of May, it is not likely
that I should concur in them now on the 9th of June.—
( Hear, hear.) I do not think the reasons urged are at all
sufficient. 1 think it is unusual—l think it is most impru-
dent—l think it is most unwise to make the operations of
this House depend on any thing passing in the other House
-of Parliament. I say, first, that the course proposed is a
new mode of proceeding—l say it is an inconvenient mode ;
I say that it cannot tend to advantage between the two co-
ordinate assemblies, each being a House that is the guar-
dian of its own powers and privileges, and acting one on
the other-1 say, that proceeding on this principle is not
likely to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion.
My Lords, I see no reason why your Lordships should
not go into Committee at present. The Noble and
Learned Lord has stated objections to the details of the
Bill ; he has objected to the jurisdiction given to the Cor-
porations ; to the extent of patronage they will have at
their disposal. These, however, are all questions for the
Committee, into which I now move your Lordships to go.
But though the Noble Lord stated these objections to
the details, the greater part of his speech went to the prin-
ciple of the Bill—(Hear, hear)—it referred to the state of
Ireland—to the stata of the population of Ireland—to the
power to be given to those who form the greater portion
of the population of Ireland. The Noble and Learned
Lord said the Bill proposed to confer on them a power
which cannot with safety to the Protestants of Ireland
be trusted to them. Yet he says the people of Ireland
are desirous of the Bill, and he also is desirous that the
Bill should pass.--(Hear, hear.) He is desirous, too, that
it should be founded on the principle of election.--(Hear,

hear.) Why, is it not extraordinary that lie should be de-
sirous of passing this measure, entertaining the opinions
he has expressed respecting the majority in Ireland, and
the motives by which they are actuated? But the Noble
and Learned Lord would have the 'Bill founded on the
principle of election. Now, I will answer for it, that be
his ingenuity and skill what they may, lie will not be able
to escape from the difficulty of the majority of the popula-
tion of Ireland being Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) If
that really unfits them fur the privileges which this Bill
would confer on them, no skill or ingenuity of his can ever
contrive an escape from it. I therefore beg to say,
that in my opinion he has acted most inconsistently in
giving any countenance to the Bill whatever. The
Noble and Learned Lord, having been unfortunately ab-
sent
during a considerable portion of the session, has come
forward on the present occasion, and raked up all the
topics of the Roman Catholic Association, and the ap-
pointment of persons who were members of that Asso-
ciation to office in Ireland, those topics having been
discussed over and over again. It was what the ses-
sion began with, and, according to the Noble and Learned
Lord, it seems to be that with which he intends the ses-
sion shall close. The Noble and Learned Lord appeals to
his own consistency, and to the consistency of the House on
the present occasion. He says you cannot consistently
with what you have already done adopt any other course
than that of postponing the Bill on the grounds on which
you postponed it before. I beg to claim for myself and
for the Noble Lords beside me the privilege of paying
some attention to our consistency, and we feel that we
cannot give our consent to any further postponement, having
objected on a former occasion to the reasons advanced in
favour of the delay as insufficient. I stated that to act on
the grounds which were then proposed would be most dan-
gerous, and to postpone the forwarding of one Bill till some
other Bill comes down from the other House is a course of
great difficulty and delicacy. I put it to the Noble Duke,
than whom there is not, I believe, one of your Lordships
who is more capable of taking a sound practical view of any
question, whether it is not so? I ask him whether he thinks
it practicable for the two Houses to proceed in this manner
—whether some accident is not likely to occur—whether
some temper may not be excited—whether some difficulty
would not probably arise which would render it impossible
to bring the matter to a satisfactory termination. The
course proposed is one more refined and subtle, I will ven-
ture to say, than any which the sound sense of the Noble
Duke ever suggested, or which has come within the range
of his experience. With great bodies of men you cannot
act in that manner, and if that be the object which we have
in view we shall fail. 'Then why not go into Committee ?'
What is the reason why you will not go into a consideration
of this Bill—why you will not go into Committee, and then
take into consideration all the practical suggestions of the
Noble and Learned Lord, rejecting all the general objec-
tions with which he has chosen to accompany them, and
which, if allowed to take effect, would be fatal to the whole
measure ?—(Hcar, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord
has alluded to gentlemen whom he has pleased to call the
patrons and defenders of the Government. He says we
are entirely supported by the Roman Catholics of Ireland,
and we are therefore willing to assist and promote their in-
terests every way in our power to the prejudice of the Pro-
testants at large. I say that is not the case.--(Hear,
hear.) I beg to deny that imputation altogether. I beg
to say that we are no more willing to see the Protestant
interest in Ireland trampled or trodden under foot than he
is—not in the slightest respect.—(Hear, hear.) We are
determined to assert the rights, liberties, and properties,
and all that belongs to every class of his Majesty's sub-
jects, whether they are of the Church Establishment, or
whether they are not of it—whether they are of one de-
scription of faith or of another.—(Much cheering.) The
Noble and Learned Lord has adverted to the Roman
Catholic Association of Ireland. I have said what I think
of that Association, and I do not consider it necessary
to repeat my remarks on the present occasion. But the
Noble and Learned Lord says, was there ever such an Asso-
ciation before ? In reply, I think I might endeavour to re-
cal to the Noble and Learned Lord's recollection, whether,
when he sat on the Woolsack from the year 1827 to the
year 1829, there did not exist such a body in the country ?
—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Noble and Learned
Lord then called to his aid neither the common law, if that
was sufficient, nor did he introduce any new Statute on the
occasion.—(Lord Lyndhurst expressed dissent.) I know
what the Noble and Learned Lord is going to say ; he would
tell us that he did not introduce a new Statute ; but though
he did so, was it not under cover of the Concession Bill 2
(Hear)—of that Bill which was to confer equal civil rights
and privileges on the Roman Catholics ? I will not inquire
now whether what was done on that occasion was prudently
or wisely done ; nor will I express an opinion as to the ob-
servation which accompanied the measure, because I do not
wish to stir up matters which formerly created great diffe-
rences of opinion ; but I cannot help saying, that I think,
unless it had been the intention to concede to the Roman
Catholics all they required as regarded equality of civil
rights, that concession never would have been made. The
Noble and Learned Lord has stated that we gave way to
the Roman of Ireland, and speaks of the Ass°•
ciation in Ireland as a Roman Catholic Association. Un-
fortunately that Association is not a Roman Catholic
Association ; and if there is any thing dangerous and for-
midable in that Association—if there is any thing which
makes it more dangerous and formidable than the former
one, it is that a bedy of Protestants belong to it, and that
it has a more general character than any that ever before
existed in that country. With respect to persons who have
been members of that Association having been appointed
to office in Ireland, I must say most distinctly that when
an Association comprises amongst its members many distin-
guished individuals—when it has grown up to be of consi-
derable importance—when it has excited a great deal of
enthusiasm in the minds of young men, and many young
lawyers have been induced to enrol their names in it-1
think it would be unwise, I think it would be exceedingly
imprudent; on the part of the Government to pronounce
against all connected with it a ban of exclusion from office.
--(Hear.) But, says the Noble and Learned Lord, that
is what you have done with respect to the Orange Societies.
Now, I beg to say that though that course was proposed
by the Government, I entertained doubts as to its
policy : I will even say that I never came to a decision
with greater doubt ; but I yielded to the proposition on ac-
count of the peculiar character of those Societies.—(Hear,
hear.) They were entirely secret—the members were
bound together by secret oaths. I never have been irate-
tiated in their mysteries, but they were similar, I believe,
to those of freemasonry.—(The Duke of Cumberland :,
" No, no !"). I have understood that rites were observed
of a very solemn nature ; that they were of an awful devo-
tional character.—(A laugh). Certainly the members of
the Orange Lodges sometimes were bound by illegal secret
oaths and awful ceremonies.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND said, having been much

connected with those Societies, he begged to observe that
there never was anything of the sort described by the Noble
Viscount, or he certainly never would havecountenanced
them.

Viscount MELBOURNE—If there were not secret
oaths, nobody could go in but members ; the pro;xedings
were secret.

The Duke of CUMBERLAND—The meetings of
every club in London are secret.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
I never would have belonged to a society in which any
oaths were taken of the sort mentioned by the Noble Vis-
count, or in which there were any proceedings contrary to
the spirit of the laws and constitution of the country.

Viscount MELBOURNE—The members of the. Orange
Societies were, as I believed, bound together by oaths of
secrecy—(Hear, hear)—and that induced me to adopt,
with respect to them the policy of excluding them from of-
fice under the Government. The Noble and Learned
Lord, in speaking of the Roman Catholic Association,
made it a ground of charge against them that they took
on themselves to levy money, to nominate candidates, and
to influence the elections. Will the Noble and Learned
Lord allow me to ask him, is there no club in London
which does that ?—(llear, hear.) Does he know of no
club in which money is raised, and that has been in-
stituted for the very purpose of carrying such objects
as the influencing of elections into effect ? If that is
to be a complaint against the Roman Catholic Associa-
tion, there are other bodies that must share it. I deny
that any encouragement of the General Association has
been given by his Majesty's Government, and I say that
to appoint a professional man to office under the Govern-
ment who has been a Member of it is not to afford it undue
encouragement. The Noble and Learned Lord had ob-
served that 100 years ago the number of Catholics in Eu-
rope was not equal to the number existing at present. I
do not know to what countries he alludes ; but if it be a
fact that the Protestants are diminishing, or that the Ro-
man Catholics are increasing, I am sorry to hear it. I am
sorry to hear that the Roman Catholic religion is gaining
anywhere on the Protestant religion. I have seen a state-
ment to that effect in the writings of men of ability, but I
hoped that it was not accurate, and I regret to hear a si-
milar statement made on the authority of the Noble and
Learned Lord. But, if it be true, that does not alter the
present case at all. If the Catholic religion be winning
and gaining—if it be increasing and drawing on the re-
formed religion--it is not by refusing to impart to the
Roman Catholics the rights and privileges belonging to
them—it is not by objecting to their number, that we
shall correct or remedy that which we regret.—(Loud
cheering.) The Noble and Learned Lord had adverted
to one or two of the arguments which I used when I had
the honour of submitting this Bill to your Lordships'
consideration, and he has more particularly adverted to the
proofs I furnished of the successful working of the English
Municipal Bill. That perhaps was an impudent argu-
ment to use ; it certainly has had the effect of raising
more discussion than I intended, and might tend to pre-
vent that very good which it was my object to show ex-

isted. What I have always said was that it would be, and
I now say it is, evident that the Bill has worked better—
that it has worked more smoothly—that it has worked
more tranquilly in the second year of its operation than it
did in its first. I expect it to work still better next year.
As evidence of the success of that fact I appeal to time,
which tries and passes judgment on all measures. With
respect to the operation of the Act at Bristol, and the
counter-statement of the Noble and Learned Lord, I
have only to remark that I have been entrusted with a
large petition from Bristol, agreed to at a public meeting,
which confirms everything I stated on the subject on a
former occasion. That petition I shall have the honour to
present to your Lordships, and I do not wish to excite
any further discussion on the subject, because I know it is
one on which parties might be found who would make as-
sertions on the one side which would be denied on the
other, without coming to a satisfactory ccnclusion. My
Lords, I again declare that I cannot agree to the proposed
p ostponement of the Bill. I must say " not content" to that
postponement. Having made these observations, I shall
p iss by all the more violent parts of the Noble and Learned
Lord's speech. His long absence will perhaps account in
s ime degree for the violence in which he has indulged ; it
may be the result of his opinions having been for a con-
siderable period pent up.—(A laugh.) In conclusion, I
must say not only " not content" to the postponement of
the Bill, but also " not content" to the recurrence of any
of the warmth which has been allowed to exhibit itself in
these discussions.

Their Lordships then divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion ll9
For the amendment ..
Majority —B6
The amendment was consequently carried.
PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT.

Lord DENMAN stated that, in consequence of what
he saw on the votes of the other House, he should not
b ing firward the motion of which he had given notice for
Tuesday next.
The House then adjourned till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Java 9.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
WIGAN RECTORY BLL.

Mr. BROTHERTON moved the resumption of the
adjourned debate on the Wigan Rectory Bill.
Lord DARLINGTON was one of the Committee

who had considered the Bill, and in that character he

trusted the House would bear with him for a few
moments while he explained its provisions.—(Hear.) In
passing, he would merely observe that during the whole of
his Parliamentary experience he had never seen the pro-
ceedings before any Committee terminate so satisfactorily
to all parties ; and, such having been the case, he could
not adequately express the surprise he felt at the
attempt to introduce a clause of so extraordinary a
nature at a future stage. The Bill was for the purpose of
allowing the Rector of Wigan, with the concurrence of the
patron, to let the glebe lands out on building leases.
While the Bill was before tke Committee, a petition was
presented from the inhabitants of Wigan, com-
plaining of the stopping up of public walks which
they had enjoyed from time immemorial. The Com-
mittee at once agreed to the proposition that they should
be respected, that they should be beneficially enjoyed, and
enacted that a portion of the land should be left free
from building. There had been no petition before the
Committee at all analogous to the clause about to be

_ --
proposed. He considered it one which, if agreed to,
would strike at the root of all private property, and was
altogether one of the most extraordinary nature that he
had ever seen introduced into the House.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) It was not proved that there was any
want of religious instruction in the Parish ; if so, then
undoubtedly the Rector, who, he understood, had a large
income, was the proper person to supply it. But there
was another person's interest concerned. He considered
that his patronage was as much his own private property
as any land of which he possessed the title. The principle
contained in the clause was so strong and so iniquitous that
he hoped the House would never agree to it.
Mr. HINDLEY then moved the following clause—
" Provided always, and be it further enacted that nothing in
this Act contained shall in any manner prevent or interfere
with any future appropriation by Parliament of any of the
monies raised under and by virtue of this Act to providing
salaries for additional Ministers of the Established Church
in the parish of Wigan."
The SPEAKER inquired if the Hon. Member intended
to divide upon the introduction of the clause ? •
Mr. HINDLEY said that he did.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided. The numbers were—
For the clause 29
Against it B4
Majority
On our re-entering the gallery, we found
Mr. HINDLEY opposing the Bill. He said there was
a clergyman in Wigan, named Bailey, officiating in a Church
that had 1,800 sittings, and who only received 401. a-year.
He thought the time was come when Church property
must be improved, and when the poor and work-
ing clergyman must be remunerated. He did not want to
injure any clergyman connected with the Established
Church ; but when he found a Bill of this nature before
Parliament, which sought to double the income of the
Rector, in a place where 18,000 persons had been proved
to be utterly unprovided with spiritual education, he felt
bound to oppose it.
Mr. E. ELLIS said there had never been an inclosure
of the property hitherto, and there was a well in the centre
of the ground sought to be enclosed, which was of great use
to the inhabitants of Wigan, who had strongly peti-
tioned against the Bill, and the only person that would
be benefitted was the Rector. He therefore felt it to be his
duty to oppose the passing of such a measure.
Mr. WILBR A HAM also opposed the Bill.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when the numbers were—
For the third reading ll2
Against it
Majority

On our re-admis;ion to the Gallery we found Mr.
HUME addressing the House. He said that on Monday
a Committee was to be appointed to consider the
best means of increasing the value of Church lands by
a different manner of leasing.—(Hear.) The Bill then
before the House prejudged that question, and as it was
one of very great public importance, it would have
been only consistent that his Majesty's Ministers had
been in their places to support their own views of the
subject.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide.") In order to
have the benefit of the attendance of his Majesty's Minis-
ters upon the question, he moved that the question then in
the hands of the Speaker be agreed to that day six months.
No division took place, and we were again admitted in
five minutes, when we found

Mr. D. W. HARVEY on his legs, complaining of the
attempt to dispose of a great public question like that be-
fore the House, in the absence of the public.—(Cheers)
He regretted the absence of his Majesty's Ministers—he re-
gretted that they should have been in their places in order
to give all their support to a private Bill for making a Rail-
way from London to Brighton, and that they should not have
found it convenient to attend and vote upon a question of
such great importance, in order to have strengthened
their own case, which was so soon to come before the House.
The House appeared to be studiously kept in the dark on
the question. He heard statements made on one side
of the House which were flatly contradicted by the
other ; and it must be at least with a feeling of pain
that the House would decide upon a Bill, without any ex-
planation, which was characterized as a job. It was
admitted that the Rector of Wigan already enjoyed an
income exceeding 2,000/. a-year—he was ic.formed 2,3001.;
now the effect of the Bill was to double that income.—(No.)
Would the Bill, in any manner, increase that income ? If
so, he called on those Gentlemen opposite, who had come
forward upon a late occasion as the most strenuous supporters
of the Church, not as an Establishment, but as the poor
man's Church, and as being most anxious for its further
extension—he called upon them by their vote upon that
occasion to keep clear of the charge of hypocrisy. Now
that an opportunity presented itself, when they could
carry out the views they had then only theoretically
put forth, every club had been scoured and emptied in
order to swell the numbers of the Conservatives against
their avowed principles.—(Laughter from the Opposition.)
By their support to the Bill they proposed to bribe a
Clergyman till the depth of his worldly advantages
would make him forget his high and holy calling.
—(Hear.) He trusted the House would by some means
or other procrastinate the measure, even in its final stage,
until the Ministry were present to clear themselves from
the inference which might be drawn against them, and to
give Hon. Gentlemen opposite an opportunity of consider-
ing the vote they were about to give.
Mr. HINDLEY was astonished at the very full at-
tendance which he saw on the opposite benches.—(Laugh-
ter.) He called upon the Noble Lord opposite (Lord
Sandon) to vote with him upon this occasion, as
upon the Church-rate question he had said that
wherever a Clergyman was amply provided for,
ho for one would be most willing to apply the surplus to the
spiritual wants of the people. He begged to ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair whether it would be
in order then to move that the title of the Bill be 'altered ?
The SPEAKER thought it was.
Mr. HINDLEY then said that it was necessary he
should go into the general principle. The question was,
whether the House would allow this money to go to the
increase of the luxury of any individual ; or would the House
appropriate it in the manner recommended by the Com-
missioners ?

Mr. BAINES thought that an attempt had been made
to prevent the value of this living being known.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) He had a return by which it appeared

that the gross income was 2,323/. a year, and the net
2,3301. Now what were the facts with respect to this arish,
with reference to Church accommodation ? There were no
less th tn 800,000 inhabitants, and only room for C0,C60
Where, he would ask, could there he a better opportunity
than the present of increasing Church accommodation ?
—( Hear, hear.) He would put it to the Noble Lord
the Member for Liverpool, whether the present was not
a fair opportunity of increasing Church accommobtio ?
The question was, whether the House woul f sanction the
proposition for increased accommodation, or would uphold
the abuses of an overpaid Church ? He did not wish to
put the matter too strongly, but that in his opinion was
the common sense view of the case. if Church accom-
modation were required, he trusted the House would act
upon its information, and not upon its ignorance.
Dr. BOWRI NG said the presentation of this Bill to
Parliament was the act of the Rector himself. Ile had
put himself into the hands of Parliament to decide on this
particular subject.—( Hear, hear.) When the question of
the increase of Church property was to be brought before the
House, and some general principle was to be discussed, it
was going too far to take this particular part of it out of
the operation of that general principle.--(Cheers.) There
was then a cry of " Strangers must withdraw," but

Mr. ROEBUCK rose. He said—There is a great
deal of hypocrisy, Sir, in this House.—(Loud cheers from
the Ministerial benches, echoed by loud cheers from the
Opposition.) I see the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge
opposite. I want to meet that Right Hon. Gentleman on
this matter.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Sir, I hear very often
on the opposite side of the House great statements made
about accommodation for the worship of God.—( Hear.) I
heard this week, on Wednesday night, great statements
made about the necessity of worshipping God on the Sab-
bath Day—(Cheers)—and now we have in opposition to
the worship of God a certain quantity of money to be
put into the pocket of the Rector.—(l-lear, and cheers.)
And now we shall find the value of certain protestations by
the vote that will be given on this occasion.—(Cheers.)
Which will carry it—Worship or the Parson's pocket ?
(Laughter.) The Parson's pocket, if I understand it.—
(Cheers.) You (pointing to the Opposition benches)
talk about worship when it is for your own p-e-culiar party
purposes ; but when there is a question of whether you are
to have money or worship, you are all for money.—(Cheers
and laughter from the Opposition benches.) The Wght Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cambridge laughs at that.
He acknowledges the statement. He laughs when I talk
about the worship of God.—(Cheers.) Let the country
know that we shall understand the excitement of the Right
Honourable Gentleman before we have done.—(Loud
cheers.) The question is this :—a certain Clergyman, hay-
inc, above two thousand pounds a year, wishes to put
aboutb double that sum into his pocket by an improved value
given to the estate by Act of Parliament.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.")
The Earl of DARLINGTON here rose, and was greeted
with loud and general cries of " Order, order," from the
Ministerial benches. He said, I cannot speak to order,
because the Hon. Member is misrepresenting the question.
—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
The SPEAKER explained that the question was, whe-
ther the debate should be adjourned to this day six months.
The Earl of DARLINGTON then sat down.

Mr. ROEBUCK--I have to know, Sir, why lam in.
terrupted.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord rises to cal
me to order—for what ?

The Earl of DARLINGTON—For misrepresenting
the question.—(Cheers from the Tories.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—Misrepresenting the question! The
person who put me out of order was the Noble Lord him-

self.—(Loud cheers). If Hon. Members were called to
order every time they strayed from the question there would
be an eternal interruption of debate. The real question
before us is, are we to interfere by an Act of Parliament
so to increase the value of Church property, when there is
before the House a measure respecting improving Church
property generally ?—( Hear.) This is nothing more than an
attempt by a side w►nd to take out of the operation of that
Act a certain particular person—(Hear, hear,)—and I am
somewhat surprised his Majesty's Ministers are not here.
It is now 20 minutes past five by that clock. Why are
his Majesty's Ministers not here to defend a specific violation
of the measure ?—a violation of their measure to a very
important extent, and let the country understand to what
extent it is. A man having 2,0001, a-year is not satisfied
with that, .and he is a non-resident.---(Cries of " No, no,"
from the Tories, and cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
He would say " Yes." They were endeavouring to in-
crease the value of the property twofold.—(lnterruption.)
He would not be interrupted. A new rule had been intro-
duced, by which one Hon. Member was not to interrupt
another.—(A laugh.) The question was as to the ad-
journment of the consideration of the question, and until
the general question of Church property was settled, the
present specific one could not be fairly brought before it.
If his Hon. Friend divided the House upon the question
until four o'clock to-morrow, he (Mr. Roebuck) would go
with him.—( Cheers.)
Lord SANDON did not wish the question to go to
a division, until lie had corrected a mis statement made
by the Hon. Member for Bath. The Hon. Member had
stated that the present was an attempt to withdraw certai❑
property from the operation of a measure to be introduced
by the Government. The object of that measure was to
give increased value to Bishops' and Chapters' leases, and
with that the present question had nothing to do.
Mr. W. PATTEN denied the statement of the Hon.
M mber for Bath, that the clergyman was non-resident ;
on the contrary, he was one of the most regular resi-
dent clergyman in the diocese.—(Opposition cheers.)
Mr. C. BULLER was delighted to find that the Cler-
gyman was resident, and it appeared to him that he was
amply paid for it by an income of 2,8001. a year. He could
not conceal his astonishment to find Hon. Members coming
down to double that income, wholly forgetting the destitute
souls whose howlings prevented those Honourable Mem-
bers from sleeping. When the question of Church-
rates was under discussion be appealed to the Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire, whether his prin-
ciple was not a different one when he brought forward the
measure of Irish Church-cess ? He had then said, when
the Legislature stepped in and gave property a value it
had not before, much as lie was inclined to maintain the
sanctity of Church property, he was not inclined to give
that additional property to the Church, and in such cases
the Church had no claim, and it might be applied to secular
or any other purposes.
After a few words from Mr. WASON,
Mr. HINDLEY rose amid loud cries of " Spoke,
spoke," and " Withdraw." He only wished to correct the
statement that had been made, that the whole matter in
dispute had been left to the two Hon. Members for Wigan.
—(Cries of " Spoke.")
Lord SANDON rose amid tremendous cries of
" Spoke, spoke."
After a few observations from Mr. AINSWORTH and Mr.
WILBRAHAM,
Lord STANLEY rose to address the House. Hon.
Members had refrained from making statements, because
they were convinced that the only object was delay.—
(Cheers.) The sole object of the Bill was to allow mining
to take place upon the land which now belonged to the
glebe. The Rector of this living had been charged with
being non-resident ;so far from that, he performed duty
three times on a Sunday and twice in the week, and
was noted for his liberality, spending no less than 1,1001.
a year for the good of his parishioners. Taking all the
circumstances of the case into consideration, he thought
the course pursued was most vexatious.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WAKLEY said that he expected an answer from
the Noble Lord to what had been stated by Hon. Members
on:that side of the House, but he had given none. The fact
was, that the Hon. Members on the opposite of the House
was acting the part of hypocrites.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON rose to order. He be-
lieved it was not competent to Hon. Members to accuse
others of hypocrisy.

The SPEAKER said the words used by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury were out of order.
Mr. WA KLEY said, after the opinion of the Chair,
he would not accuse the Members on the other side
of hypocrisy. This question must be understood by the
country.—(Cheers.) The object of the Bill was to add to
the comforts of the Rector.

Mr. STUART WORTLEY deprecated the course
pursued by the lion. Member for Ashton.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—

For the motion
Against it. .

108
189

- Majority against the motion -SI
On our admission to the Gallery, we found

Mr. C. BULLER on his legs, deprecating the statement
of the Nnble Lord opposite (Stanley), who had accused
the Hon. Members on that side of the House with adopt-
ing the course they had done for the purpose of delay. He
wished to move an alteration to the title of the Bill, in order
to show that the opinion of the House was that the object
of the Bill was to divert public property to private pur-
poses.--(Cheers.)

Mr. HUME wished to observe that the reason why his
side of the House had adopted the course of opposition which
they were now pursuing against this Bill was, that they were
forced to it by the unexpected nature of its provisions, of
which they were not aware until informed of it, after the se-
cond reading, in a getition from Wigan. The principle which
he ( Mr. Hume) and those who voted with him wished to as-
sert was the right of Parliament to improve the revenues of
the Church, and to apply any increased value which by such
means they might attain to public purposes. He should cer-
tainly wish to see the further discussion of this question post.
poned until his Maje§ty's Ministers were prea*nt.
Mr. HINDLE Y supported the amendment. He put it
to the House whether it was not too bad that one Minister
should have 401. a year for most anxious and laborious duties,
and that they should give the rector, who bad two curates

Ile under him, 4,0001. instead of '4,00/. a year? .4 shook,
move that the further debate on this subject be adjourned till
Monday.
Lord SAND ON was understood to express himself a'
::verse to an arljeurrment.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY hoped no attempt would be
throw over so imp°, tant a question. Looking at the ire Per.,,
tance of the principle which appeared to be involved in it, lie
thought it but due to the members of his MAjesty's Goveti?,
.
ment that they should have an opportunity of expressing their
further
sentiments upun it, and he therefore hoed that the
discussion of it would be postponed, in crier that they wig'
be present. The supporters of this Bill denied that its object
was greatly to augment the revenues of the rector of WliPir!'
Why, if that were really the case, it was directly contrary I.ot
what was stated in the preamble of the Bill, namely, that I
made to
would he " of great advantage," and so forth, to the rector.
The ILn. Member then proceeded to taunt Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, who were set apart as saints, and whose business .i 1
was to lecture at Exeter-hall, and to defend arid promote the
religion of the country, and who maintained that all Chureß
property should be applied to spiritual purposes, fur not raising
their voices on the subject of this Bill.
Mr. HARDY would beg the House to bear this in mind,
that if this Bill did pass, it would not take the rectory of Wigan
out of the operation of any general measure which might here-
after be passed on the subject. Let them, therefore, pass
Bill to apply to all the livings in England, but let them net
legislate upon a new and important principle for one.
Mr. AGLIONB Y hoped that his Majesty's Gov
would bass a Bill affecting not only the Bishops' leases, a"'
Church leases, but every description of Church prop.erty.
throughout the country,.and confirm the principle of the re'
of Parliament to apply all improved revenues as it thought
proper.
Mr. LAMBTON hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw
his motion.
The House then divided on the motion for the adjournment,
as we understood—

Id

66
165

For the Amendment .
Against it . .
Majority against the Amendment... 99
On our return to the gallery,
Mr. HAVES was on his legs, addressing some ° Jen
tions to the Opposition bench, which, amidst the caul--
which prevailed, was quite inaudible.
After a few words from Mr. WILKs and Mr. W. PATT
Mr. C. BUL L was understood to say that having Put
his sentiments on record by the amendment which be
moved, he should not press it further.
ng
The amendment was then put, and negatived without Pi
to a division, and the title to the Bill agreed to.
PORTLAND CEMETERY.
The further examination of witnesses relative to the
Port-
land Cemetery Bill was postponed till Tuesday.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to take the opportuto
s
of stating that as it would be inconvenient that the iltlt
should adjourn till Monday, he would move that it meet ,
morrow for three or four hours. It was necessary that the
English Corporation Amendment Act, as returned from t.
House of Lords, should come under the consideration of t°'
House as speedily as possible ; and he would therefore 112°11
that the House at its rising do adjourn till to-morrow.
VOTERS IN IRELAND.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON wished to ask the Noble I"°rd
if it were the intend )n of the Government to introduce aPv
to
measure this Session relative to the qualification of voter's
Ireland?

Lord MO RPETH said the subject was under considers;
tion, and it was the anxious wish of Government to introchfe
some measure, but they wished first to have the Report of
Committee on fictitious votes, and particularly that part of itir„
lative to the county of Longford. It was a subject of diffico"t
and he could not say when he would be prepared to bring I
forward.

THE CANADAS. for
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to ask the Under Secretar
of
the Colonies when the Bills relative to the Government
Canada were to be introduced ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said no day bad yet bee 000,
pointed. Probably he would be able to inform the
Member on Tuesday or Wednesday.
STEAM NAVIGATION TO INDIA. fee
Lord W. BENTINCK moved that a Select Cornrn't—of
be appointed for the purpose of ascertaining the best reed°
steam navigation to India by the Red Sea.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG—The last words, "by the Red Sent
ought to be omitted.
Mr. HUME said it would be desirable to have the full ac;
count of the Euphrates expedition before them, before tti
House came to any resolution on the subject.
The motion was then agreed to.
PLURALITIES BILL.
In answer to a question from Mr. A. TREVOR, to
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was not his intentioe
bring on the Pluralities Bill that evening, and be could not
say when; nor was he certain that he should be able to go °l3
with it this session.

IRISH TITHE BILL. for
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the DaY
the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Dr. WI ill
of the diocese of Tuam, complaining that the Irish Tithe B_
was insufficient for the purposes for which it was intended'
The Hon. and Learned Member also presented 73 petitioto
from varioua towns and counties in Ireland, praying,,
House to support the general policy of his Majesty's Millis'
ters towards Ireland.
Mr. SHAW presented a petition from certain Pers°l,
in the diocese of Cloyne and Ross against the Ministerial
measure.

Mr. D. BROWNE presented a petition from Tuam iu 61. •
Your of the Bill.
Mr. BODKIN presented petitions against the Tithe
from the inhabitants of the town of Tuam and its viciniti'
from the town and parish of Dunmore, from the united Psf
rishes of Liskeary and Adragoole, from the united parishes,,,
Buovenagh and Temple together, from the Roman Catho'e
clergy of the. archdiocese and deanery of Tuam, and from tbi
united parishes of Kilkerrin acid Clonberran.
STATE OF THE NATION.

On the Order of the Day being read,
Mr. ROEBUCK said it would be in the recollection 0. -
he
House that he had given notice of a motion relative to the
state in which the Government stood, and he considerea,t
present occasion a fit opportunity for redeeming his pledge'
The circumstances in which that House stood were most red
markable, and required deep consideration. Two Bills sib
been sent up to the other House of Parliament, but they wets
told the House of Lords would not take them into conside.,";
tion until something had been done by that House to Pleji
them. Of that threat no notice was taken, and particulerat
none by his Majesty's Ministers, and he was bound to say, fro
their whole conduct, that they did nothing for the Pe°P,t,
though they did much against them ; their labours, in ,
were little better than nothing. The House and the countrtio
had been told at various times that justice was to be done be
Ireland ; but what he wished to call the attention at,
House to, was the situation in which that House, the 000 t„ ,
try, and the Government were, at the present women
and he asked the House, and he asked his Majesty's ,
nisters, if they were not in a very extraordinary diffievitle.;
—( Hear, hear, hear.) What was that difficulty if 1:16,t
was no Government of the country. The difficulty wes..`,ber,
the time of the House was spent to no purpose ; and AT by
than that, the stoppage to business was not only L:1100'1120
the other House, but also by the House of Commons•
the other night the Government had really suffered
y
defeat on the Church-rates Bill, when, on a division, the„.B
had only a majority of five in their favour. Now, @Yell'
knew that was virtually a defeat, and the Bill could, Pee
again be brought forward in that House. Ministers ale,
not in the position in which they stood at the commenol
ment of the session. They stated then that they 1,(6..,
place their existence as Ministers on the fate of the Li.bet
poration Bill for Ireland. The Noble Lord the Leader of ;tile
House stated in his place, that if that Bill did not pas; his
House he and his colleagues would retire. What 14' tesfl
come of that Bill? 'Why, it had been postponed, and Ott
distinctly understood that it would he postponed
.00
Lords knew nhat that House was about. The other /luso
thwarted and obstructed measures sent up to thernv
virtually said to the blouse of Commons, if you will 00t tha
what we like we will not pass your Bill. That elatet
position of the House of Lords; but obstruction and hcitt -
were not confined to the House of Lords. Wbat bad ore
done in that House? Every proposition—every Inuldsbe
brought forward for removing the evil, the Noble Lord an .ss,
Government had distinctly and unequivocally refused to Pa
Every one of these propositions the Noble Lord had ei,ares
of by an evasion. In what state, then, were they ? aeese,
lysed. And he asked the Noble Lord, he asked the fi tie
and, further, be asked the country, what good was toc.ue
,ritbe
rived from playing over a farce by discussing the Iri-nfest
Bill ? Did they not know that, if it passed that House, dew?
awaited it elsewhere, and that it could not become ea to
Every one said that to his neighbour, that it was of no vs He
discuss such a measure, because it was sure to be lost.
aid
wanted, therefore, to see if the position of the countrycues,
be altered—he wanted to see if there were any inenn.sificejty.
tricatiug the House and the country from the di_ Liles
Everybody knew the difficulty was great—everybody if
that the existence of the Ministry hung on a threada;.;i,erf
present circumstances continued, there would not be
_r_ber)
much longer. I am willing (continued the Hon. 51,e_ifirees
to allow that Ministers have honest intentions, and are..?lnos
to carry out the fruits of the Reform Bill ; but et'lol eyed
ask what has been done ? It must be in the recollection Of .a
after the pare
classes—those who were to remain unrepresented
c.a_ to the
ing that on the passing that Reform Act the unrepre•
ing of the Reform Act—determined to forego tbeirt i, their
franchise, upon the representations made to thema, measure
friends of the advantages to be derived from tits
wort told
when it became a law. For example, the p.eOPL• wadi-
that important reductions should take place le the edit"
tare of the State. Improvements were promisee' , .
to versa-, v:
nistration of the law in all its branches. Justice
was seta.
long delayed, was now confidently anticipatedf would
posed that by a reformed Parliament effectual
nerthue
ott.e
be provided for the education of the Pe°Ple' t: the estfeor
ground laid fore t rid of every objection . corruptiond
to
thcrmore, we were told that the governmepo'n was
raisesaint
sion of the suffrage to all classes of the peop,leof
was to be ended for ever, and Tory dominati
es then da
be doomed to eternal destruction. The hop made
have ." _OO6
have been miserably disappointed—the p
nditure „)f the u., of
have been shamefully broken. The earn the Palal
try is as wasteful and extravagant as • of expend''h
reduction 0 ob,o f
Toryism. There has been no actual
cry a
may en
ture—( Oh, oh.) Honourable Members
o's at the.
tea
certain unfortunately there are certain 0,
Adn"nis Re-
certain figures.—( Cheers and laughter.) as of the
the a Y Ireland
of the law is as disgraceful now as before e to
been den ,
formed Parliament. Justice bas not