The Sun.
London, England, 1808-05-28 00:00:00

CATHOLIC PETITION.

The Order of the Day was then read for taking
into consideration the Petition presented on behalf
of the Cantolies of Ireland, and
Lord GRENVILLE moved that the Petition be now
read.---The Petition havingibeee read accordingly,
..Lord. GRENVILLE rose; agreeably to natioe, to
mom that the prayer of the Petition be referred to a
Committee,. Betted he entered on. the arguments
which, in his mind, should Seduce their Lordships
to accede te his Motion, he had a few observations
to premise respecting the. causes of the delay that
had Occurred in bringing forward his Motion,, and
the reasons which inclined him' rather to rejoice in,
than to regret, that' delay. .Wheif he firsts'eatre
notice of his Motion, he expected to have the sup-
port of a Noble Friend of his (Lord Grey)e whose
support on all occasions was so dairablee but more
especially ma subjed which his Noble Friend was
known to have extreinely at heart. Domestic ca-
lamities, and ate urgency of private 'affairs, corns
pened his Noble Friend to, leave town before the
dee first appointed for the' present Notion. In the
expectation, however, that his Noble Friend would
be able shortly to return to his Parliamentary duty, he
had deferred his Motion for a fortnight longer. But a
fresh domestic calamity befel his Noble Friend, and
prevented.hia return to town at the time 1w expea-
ed. lie entered into thig explanation of the delay,
lest it might be misinterpreted, and lest it should be
weeded that any alteration had takeit place in the
4eottments of his Noble Friend upon this most
important question. So far from' that behtg the
case, he had the express request of his Noble Friend
to declare that every day's experience made him cling
More closely to those sentiments s that he entertain-
ed them to the full extent of what he had so often
expressed, and that it was no small addition to the
Setterings sehich occasioned his absence, to be de-
prived of the apportunity of again declaring them in
his place. But In ether respeCts he was rather glad
than sorry for the delete as circumstances had
since occurred that made the delay not only not a ,
aubje& of regret, , but of satisfaCtion, and which
opened to him a fairer prospe4 of the future success
of meesure which he was now anxious to press
upon the attention of their Lordships. Only two
days ago, this question had been brought forward in
another place, and when he said that it had been
treated with superior talent and ability, it was only
saying what was naturally to be expeOted front the
acltnowledged powers of the person who hasl un-
dercelten it. But much as every man must have ,
arbeired the display 'of genius and talent on that
occasion, he most rejoiced at the temper, ..the
prudence, and the cireumeeeEtion with which the
matter Wit% handled, and the impression which that
temperate and cooeiliatieg manner bed made on the
minds of those to whom it W4S addressed. In what
he had to refer oh the same Silbjea, thong!) he de-
spaired of being able to exert the same abilities, he.
should, however, endeavour to imitate the same
temper, and he trusted it' would produce the same.
favourable impression. Had he brought forward his
motion en the day' which he had first appointed for
its discussion, he should have been deprived of this
example, and unsupported by the flattering hopes
with which the force of that example inspired him
of the future issue of the question. Indeed he stood
itl need of something to cheer the gloom which
bung upon the general state of things, and which
had thickened so considerably since he had last the
,honour of opting their Lordships' attention to this
important, delicate, and awful subject. At that pes"
rind, it, is true, the attitude of the enemy was formi-
dable—ethe trenches .had been opened ; but they are
now tar advanced, and the line of circumvallation is
drawing 'closer around us. The dangers of the coun-
try wore then comparatively remote, but they were
now impending over us : we were on the point, we
touched on the moment of feeling the Storm burst
upon us. He imagined he already heard the trnm-
pet sounding the charge. Under circumstances of
such just alarm, what had the government to look
to Litt to the ueited hands ,and hearts of. the inba-.
enfants of the t wa kingdoms ; and such is the ino-
ment,,when the great majority of the inhabitants of
Ireletel press forwerd tvittt eurtiest offrs. of sharing
our dangers, of co-operating in our eticirts to resist
and 'repel them. Their otters and' their wishes they
address to Parliament, to which they look as the
snily source, not only of protection and liberty, but
of all the benefits and blessings that direotly flow
front the Conititutiort. Their Lordships have heard
their Petition read, and have now to consider then ea-
ture and of jeela of its prayer. His Lordship then
proceeded to state, that -the motion he should con-
clude with would be for a Committee to hike the
objeeis of the Petition into consideration. It was
his individual opinion, that the prayer of the Potitibe
should be conceded to its utmost extent. But as
many Noble 'Lords would doubtless differ 'from hint
on this point, he wished the ohjeCta of the Petition
might be fully discussed, that the House might exa-
mine how far it was safe and expedient to grant
more or less of the prayer of the Petition, and see
'that:nothing of what they might be disposed to grant
ihould affeet, the existing Establidhments in Church
;stet State ; and if all the inconreniences and evils of
will,* the Petition coMplained could not immediate-
ly tie removed, to in9uire at least how far some of
them might be remedied, or mitigated, that thus a
diapatition might be shown to listen to their reeres'
sent Woes with pat ienewandett tent ion, and to redress
(Wlt- grievances as tiar as wisdom might (Bred, end
prudence alloW. These were subjects to which.he
lougS turned' his mind ; they were often the sub
-
jest of the meditations of that great Statesman', his
mewed :Friend (Mr. Pitt), of ,whose councils the
coeutry was now unfortunately deprived. With the
sso theents 'of that Statesman on those points he was
eitrettely acquainted from mutual communication,
sn I all teese objeets were before his mind at the
time of the Uuton. 2'he removal of the disabilities

complained of in the Pet Von he Ilea lotsg before
conceived and deternsitied; but it formed only one
part of the great system he was planning for theime
provernent and Prosperity of Ireland. If the Howie
would consent to go into the Committee, he should
there minutely detail this syteni, and he was confi-
dent their Lordships would 'adope,much of it, not
only en.eccoont of its wisdom aud• policy, but one
of regard and justice to the inemery'of its immortal
framer. Much had sif late been , done to better the
situation of 'the Established Clergy in this Country,
and in Ireland. It formed a part of the system to which
he had adverted,to make some aireeipt to improve the
situation of the Catholic Clergy iiethe latter country.
Every day furnished new proofs of the zeal and pa-
triotism of 'the. Catholic Bishops of Ireland, and .
consequently added to their claims on the justice and
gratitude of the Government. Indeed, lie never en-
rained a doubt of their loyal and. patriotic disposition.
But when this subje& was on a former occasion
' under the consideration of their Lordships, much
uneasiness . seemed to be felt with regard to the
Catholic • Hierarchy, and much alarm expressed at
the authority the Bishops exercised over the inferior
Clergy, and at their connexion with, and deference
to, the See of Rome. These objections are now
removed.; these alarms should now vanish : for the
Catholic Bishops have made a voluntary offer to
place the nomination of the future Bishops corn-
pletely
at the disposal of the Crown, and to give
the King a direCt negative upon all such appoint-
ments.• This surely must do away a material ob-
je&ion, and induce the Government to take en in-
terest in the situation of the inferior Catholic Clergy,
as well as that of their superiors. It might be ada.
visable to provide a decent subsistence for them :•
he wished nothing farther. They now derived their
whole subsistence from the voluntary contributions
of their docks ; and when it was recollected that
they ministered to the spiritual 'comforts of nearly
four millions of soids', it must be felt how much
gaining their confidence and gratitude would tend
to diminish the dangers which so much alarm the
minds- of some men. Among other objections start-
ed on this question, the refusal of the Catholics to
take the oath of supremacy was much insisted on.
But their scruples on this head arose from a mere
question of speculative belief ; they did not at all
interfere with the temporal power of, the-Sovereign
and the State. They considered only. his spiritual
power. Now, the Constitution does not suppose a
spiritual power in the King; the Kies is not, as it
were, the Pope of the English Church ; his su-
preMacy is not such as was affeeled by Henry VIII.
Neither does the Established Churcn• of'Scotland
admit of any spiritual power in the King; but no
objeaion is raised against it on that soorei Among
the objeas which were in the contemplation or the.
great Statesman (Mr. Pitt), to whose eatliority on
these subje&s he could not too often recur, was' to
framesa form of words, in flea of the oath of su-
premacy, which would be sufficient to eecure every
objet of temporal goveroment, and due obedienee
to temporal authority. No danger whatever could
possibly result from such an alteration; and when
we rifled on the addition it might make to the na-
tional strength, should we hesitate 'to adopt it, at a
moment when all the Means we can call into action
may prove so inadequate to repel the dangers with.
which the Empire is threatened? But, even, if the
situetion of the Stuart Family were such as still to
keep alive such apprehensions as have been express-
ed on this point, still he was sure not a voice could
be raised in favour of the Pretender against the pre
sent occupier of the throne; still less, when, every
branch of that family is extinct, there is no room
for such apprehensions; these should cease when
the cause is gone-.-tile provisions made against the.
danger erase when the danger has ceased to exist.
Did not the army employed by King William to
establish the Revolution cantata chiefly of Catholics,
Commanded by Catholic officers? Yet, with 'such
an army he did not fear to encounter the Catholics
in this country. He knew they would do the duty
they had sworn to perform. Such is ' the judgment
of enlightened minds-e-such the etrea of wise
toleration in Governments. The Noble Lord next
proceeded to state some of the other objetlionable
dottrines imputed to the Catholics, among othert,
the belief Of a deposing power in the Popees-
Net only do the Catholics deny entertaining such
such notions, but the question whether they did
or not, was known to have been proposed to the Pro-,
fessor& of the most celebrated Universities on the
Continent, and their 'answer is equally known to
have been Couched is expressions of surprise, not un-
mixed with indignation, at finding that such tenets
were imputed to the great body of the Catholics.
As' idle nod unfounded were the objetlions arising
from the• supposition that the Catholics did not
think themselves. bound by their Oaths. What but
their acknowledged and known regard endnwe for •
that sacred obligation, mild have induced the
framers of the very laws against them, and those
who refuse tai repeal them, to impose oaths upoe
thein, as the surest means of securing their fidelity?
Besides, did not the Pet* See itself, by its declara-
tion in tees% positively deny the holdingelf eueb a
duthine, or asmumning Such a power, as the deposing
power which it is accused of attempting to exercise ?
`Xlie next objectionarose 'from excommunication,
which 'is only the exclusion front spiritual hopes,
and never enforced with respect to temporals. That
exercise' of it is not peciiliaeto Ireland, but to every
country where the Catholic Religion is tolerated.
Besides, it has of late been very rarely resorted to in
Leland. The Noble Lord was not aware of any
other objetlion of any. moment. We had 'only to
look to other countries, and we should see what
confidence was reposed in the Catholics, where
Catholiciem was not the established religion. The
. Greek =Church preyailed in Russia; but in Russia
there was no obje6tion to employing Catholics--
Prussia was Protestant,- and there the Catholics were
admitted to the highest military rank.- The same
in Holland; and in all these countries the professors
- Of these different religions lived together on the most
intimatelootingsof confidences and cordiality. ' Such,
was the spirit Which he wished to see prevail' be-
tween the different persuasione in Ireland; and its
beneficial effects were more and more marked in
that country since the first relexation of the penal
code in tem It is the gradual intuition of that spi-
rit through Ireland that has brought it to the wealth,
erinfidetice, 'and power which it now eneeye, and
to that improved situetion it has been raised Avithin
the last thirty years, from *state of depressed po-
verty, and political annihilation. whiff, ' tilt iron

pressure of our laws had inflieted on' her before she
was' gradually relievedfrom it by the beneficent and
paternal hand of the Sovereign now on the Throne
He fondly hoped that the same benevolence would
continue 'to operate;- and. it would be sure to pro-
duce a commensurate extension of all the advau-
tages and blessings in which Ireland has begun to
flourish.. These were the means of -attaching a
people, -of consolidating our divided resources, and
giving strength 'and stability to the Government.
You had now only folly to extend:the Constitution
to Ireland, and you will draw from Ireland the most
powerful means of defending it. There remained
but few exclusions, and hey would etre& but-a few;
but the little that was still withheld might be grant-
ed without danger. But it,was not little in the eyes
of the. Catholics. Let Noble Lords only consider
how it would depress the mind of any ingenious
youth to retie& that upon entering into any pro-
fession, the Military, the Naval, or the Law, he
Was to be exposed to all the fatigues and dangers of
such a life, but must never aspire to its higher re-
wards, its more glorious distindions. :Must not
such a reflection extinguish all emulation? the fond
parent of every noble adion, of every bold enter-
prize ? Such must be the feelings of the Irish Catho-
lic, and such the Wei influence over his mind of
such a degrading exclusion. Let not such narrow
prejudices preclude the State and the Empire from
the enjoyment of the increased resources which .it
would derive from a more mild, liberal, and generous
policy; above all, let not such hopes be blasted at
a moment so exigent and alarming. We see all the
strength and milintry means of Europe grasped and
wielded by the arm of 'one man, and that man the
most formidable enemy in every respe that we have
ever had to encounter; and how can we hope to
resist him without the most perfect union, the most
cordial cb-operation of all descriptions of his Ma
jesty's subjects. Let nothing, therefore, be omitted
to secure that co-operation in the hour. of trial„
which certainly is now near at hand. The Noble
Lord then emphatically addressed the body of 'the'
Irish Catholics, and conjured them to persevere in
the same line of loyal and submissive conduct which
had hitherto distinguished them, whatever the lltte
that might attend their present application to the
Legislature; And concluded with. moving that their
Petition be referred to a Committee.

Lord Stutuovxa objeaed to the line of argument
which represented the granting the prayer of the
Petition as necessary to engage the Catholics to de-
fend the State in the present crisis. This was too
like a stipulation fiar a bribe to perform a bounden
duty. He relied on the Catholics for the full per-
formance of their duty without any bargain fur tee
or reward. The Petition purported to chum redress
of grievances for the whole Catholic Body. But. it
WA,4 obvious that the establishment of, the adtnissibi-
lity of Catholics ton few great otlices of. State, and
to seatkin Parliament, could affeU but a few of the
heads Of the Catholic Body, without ever reaching
to the mass of the' people. He wished to pass mea-
saves which, without • affecting the State, would
;relieve and serve the mass of the people-) measures
which would tend .to dissipate the igeorance, bigot-
ry, and superstition of the Catholic poor, and the
slavery and misery of the Protestant poor. The No-
ble Lord argued' at consicietabio length against the
political power. It was
aurnlitt!iicslsioopur;oosfitiaCila,ttlorett to
House•of Stuart, but KiJho
principles incompatible with the civil and religious
liberty of this country, that the revolution was esta-
blished. These principles the Cat hulks maintained,
and they were therefore not tit to be admitted to
power, though the House of Stuart no longer exist-
ed. He argued from the example of J.IMCS H. that
the Profession of respea fbr the established religion
now made by the Catholics could not be relied on it
brought to the test. He argued from the histZny
of
Ireland, and the apthority of Lord Clare, that the
penal law was essentially necessary to be evaded in
the time of Queen Anne, .and the limes infruediate-,,
ly subsequent. To toleration in Its largest sense• he
was a friend. He would have the Catholic Clergy
paid by the State in order to prevent the necessity of
their paying court to' the caprices of their flocks, and
also to relieve the people from the burthen of main-,
taining two sets of Ck.ergya and-from that subser-
viency to the Priests which prevailed too much in
consequence of the present system. Fie did nut
think the proffered controul of the Crown over the
appointment'' the Catholic Bishops would a
sutpcient security against the undue exercise of fo.
reign influence. He wished' to avoid every thing
i,nVidious. :But he considered the. state of things
established at the •Unlon as permanent, and he tett
himself bound in duty to refuse the prayer of the
Petition, in order to uphold the pritteiplesrof the
Reformation and Revolution, 'those principles that
Seated the illustrious House of Hamner ou the Bo-
tish Throne, and that were essential to the pryer-
,vation of the civil and religious liberties of the Uri.
tish people. .
The lid'a•rl of Mom.% contended, that the PetitiOn
represented the sense of the whole Catholic body,
loasmuch as the objtas it prayed were of value to
every 'Catholic in the land. It was not to be e•..-
•peOed that the Catholics would cease to ask, while
the equal participation of. what they cotitribeted
equally to support and defend wita denied' to them.
lie thought it impossible that a Catholic should be
appointed to superintend thellistribution of church
preferments, the alarm on that head was therefore.
groondless.- The state of exclusion in which the'
Cathohe was now placed, Warranted the Protestant
in looking on him with an eye of auSpicon: Thus,
the Catholic was in a state Most galling to his feel-
ings. He was attached to the Church of Eatglind as
much as any man ; but he would not betray the
Church into any improper Eourse merely to gratify
his passions or his interest. He argued, that the
penal laws,were enacted to guard against rival prin-
ciples and attachments. The object of these attach-
ments no longer existed,'consequently the ground of
jealousy was removed, and the penalties ought to be
Ctbarho.lics7aitnhdetvheeryhlglitolewsattolupeincoornthe
loyaltyedof wtiltieh
their sense of the faroursllready conferred on them,
he did net think their attachment so much to be re-
lied on if this boon was refined as it would be if it
should be granted. Every one was aware that the
day must $OOll 'come When the boon desired could
thetief
otrbienackorgesits.iaNnvwhiales
itntoe,vloitnateler, bwehlw, iptluthteolffd
he 'aid this, he admitted his regret that the Petitiou
had been brought forward. Great benefits would
rtainly result froth Wet discussion of the. Pctition

in the liberal manner in which it appeared likely to
-be treated. But these benefits would, in his °peyote
be countera&ed by the disappointment of tee expece.
tetion of a favourable vote. 'The Military (Mori
Bill granted nothing that Was not given before ; lee*,
it was a sign of a favourable disposition ; it held vut
the olive branch, and afforded a pledge that every
relief that was wanted would be granted in the course
of a little time. Every thing that happened tended
to confirm the power oft he enemy, already so ease
mous, and dire red with so much hostile ability
against -us s. and yet in this awful crisis it was mael
matter ot'cold inauimate deliberation; whether three
millions of people should be so dealt by as to niahi
their strength in the highest degree available to de
common cause. Every thing that Was done Shoup
bto excite:aed confirm hope. If the exertionsil
e common defence were equal, there was no &bet
that the intereseought to be equally so. With slid
sentiments he held, it was itnpossihle for him to'de
otherwise than support the motion for going into, a,
Committee. He repeated, he did' nut epprove
Petitions being brought forward now. But travel
been. brought torward, he fiuding.it on the table of
the House, could do no otherwise than give it that
Support to which injustice and policy he telt it to be
entitled.
The Bishop of NORWteli, difFering on 'this Wet
tion from most of the Members of the Order to';
which he had the honour to belong, was anxious to
state the grounds of that difference. He regareed as
much :es any man could do .he real interests of tee,
Established Church, but he thooght the honeue
prosperity, and security of the Established Chune
would be best Promoted. by the nieatts proposed tin
this Petition. The Reman Cethohcs solemnly die'
claimed on oath the offeasiee tenets imputieffe
them. Was their oath to be doubted, and waseeler
evidence of their, sentiments to be taken in oppece
lion to their own sieeion declaration ? Whet: Owe
gave satisfaelion on the heels that releies d ,
amid politicel conduct, why were tecieinere species-
live tenets to be m ide the ground of excluding thou.
'from Office ? Nothiuge could be more sacre.l ttrsu
the obligation of an oath among meni: No sit ollecti
clistiedion existed, or could be devised.
•Not evv"
thieves, could associate without this mimed reliance
on each ethers' faith. If, therefore, the Catteeics
could not be relied on in their rotessions of alicei"
Mice on milt, ,they could not be relied on iu AY
thing; they Were not fit to lee le society. ltd,
assumed, of course, that their ateuratieu
offensive doeirines was unque,tiunable,. and 03e
sequently that the exclusion which was louteie i "3
the imputation of these offensive do6frines was le jile,
liable. No wise Min could now htNeSirOtis to
the penal.statutes utirepealed. 'Blackstone said, i"
his conunentaries, that if ever the time slimed ce3'
whets the power of the Popseshould have got,'" I')
decay, and v/lieu elate should be no Preteieer
the Crown of England, it wuu d be 'ewer to abet,
.
gate the penal laws. Tile:Neer of the Pope. %4';'4
extinie, there was no remaining person of the eftee"
of Stuart, and the circutneauces lot tee Weed fee'
dared it eecessiry to unite all nor sireugth ese,l"l4-
the enemy. 'limier all thee: eircoteseneics, ,what
eecese coeld be git en ter cutitintilit4 the :ri,'l'`)°4
tin Catholics.? He ettind now to In t; 0!I
the greund ref tee Coronoriou Oath,..whw;, cote
sintered il¢ the tuoye weak and rude of tilt that leto
been offered. He Cited the V:.Qrtki of tl, o.tits
established in 1459`, which Hund h.' ilia... William 01
.maintain the Estaelished rcit, and the Chureete
thereto belonging, in their rights as they wer.,.
ur
should be fixed by law. It w:ie iliac:hilt to fiadde
whet term this oath urlitatee ae.iiest, the doer' (4:
the Catholics. It eetutoey was nut ineOn+iitent
with the laws of God, or with the enlightened pt,',,-
cipleis of the Revolution, to give to the State ate zit!'
vaateee of the services of m. n oetaleets kiad !one-
hatever may ba their speculative opini"ll.4 ()3
matters of were doeiritie. He could not couceice
the interests of the Church, or limey of any person
conne&ed with it, could b. injured by men wee de'
dared oil theft solemn oath that they media not to
any disturbance to the Establishment. For
an iudividuel connedee N ith and interested for e3‘;
Church,
,and proud of the station be held to it, I'',
.
should be sorry to thiol: he posseesed tiny right `ll,'
property in it which could be eudaoeerad by ability
!lug virttl,,us fellow subj2,:ts and fellow chreteles tt.
the -participation of the constitesional riebi'J.
.gritish citizens. But when the indulgenees gale; r
in 1782 and 17g3, and the repeal (Attie Test Al,
e'ie, without any fear of the kind now er,Prc"'....%-
were called to memory, this obreetion vraiisbed.
Ho had said thus much, in order to account for
hit
ditrereeee of opinion on this subject troai perse'
for whose understanding and poticiples ee tgid d
highest veneration, though, he Jould not f
to them his clear judgment, and the hest
his heart. •
The e Bishop of He imolai hoped to prow t°
Right ItieV. Friend, 'Whoie talents and vinees lie v4:9;
highly respelled, that lie was tint aeluated by ')l:,tr
i,itulcrant spirit
aisntetztging the.motian now b"!),.0,
their Lordships,
indispensable guards of the t
e Protestant Itesnan);
l
establisliment. God forbid h. should wish to i"t`'4
fete with the free exercise of the religion a art), ;svire
or class. Enlightened toleration was the clistiegutiwe
ing eharaderistie of the British Church; hutd ire
Catholics made no complaint of being.diderbo_Leir;
the free exercise of their religion, of suffering ill
petsons or property' on that account. klo thT;ali 10 •
it absurd and unjust to visit on the Catholics "1, tits
day the errors of their ancestors. He adtritteethtl,
talents and virtues of a Fenelon, and ef glee i °env,
Professors of the Hotnae Catholic Faith. Ther°`t;e4.,
'many Catholics hi our days erieallyidistiteeli.'aii,
He did not think any speculative opinion okLitei
fled a man from discharging his duty to the
s,t` ees'
but he could not consent to open to tlie'Cat"')
the highest ()Kees of the State. He thoiii3O
wits ought to he ,et to tolore ab
io.t but-he t''44
the 'restraint on the high ediees ought;t
withdrawn..
'The Bishop of BANGOR laid down as enrig.l6irt .n;
trovertible
,opinion, _ l
that. the State bad to)i,
constitute a State religion, and to protezt t
the
gion- by confining within it the adminiitrati"
great offices. -Power was not to be trusted to " vat
ed allegiance. The eeeance of the Ca
divided. They gave a partial obedience tcia2()te1
Prelate, and to a Clergy foreign to the eto.
house. He was far turn ooppo.logio the ""' diode
of this day, a spirit at dangerous supers,itoi,*
su" s
edit% the mast sacred ohligatiom of
re'i4n

never eiasted generally. The principle of (tit,
regarding an oath would at any time have been spurn-
ed at by the French Nobility. Yet it produced a
Clement and a Itavaillac, who assassinated their So-
.vereigns. The latter assassinated Henry .IV. the ill-
ther of his people, in the midst of that people.—
.Iqay.net such examples occur again. Here the Right
Itev. Prelate went into an exathinAtion of Dr. Ma-
ner's observations on oaths, which he,conceived to
.be liable to Misinterpretation and abuse. The Ca-
tholics assumed great temporal power: They also
endeavoured to load with odium the Protestant Esta-
blishment. In a wait published in Ireland the Pro-
.testants were charged with corrupting the Scriptures
in their translation, although the very errors charged
,were only to be found in the old and obsolete trans-
habits. In speaking of the Protestant Clergy, the
author of that work asked whether it was wise to
'hire such men at the expence of a million a-year to
lead the people the wrong way. He was ready to
grant the Catholics every sate indulgence, but he
was not ready to admit them into every otlice of
power and trust.
Lord HUTCIIINSOI; was convinced that.thisques.
tion, like other great questions of a similar nature,
though frequently deferred, must eventually be adopt •
ed. Its tuarth was slow, but its triumph would be -
complete. He argued against the absurdity of vs
prendingany danger from the Papal power being
exe ted over the. Catholics of Ireland. That power
existed no ; its imperial head was bowed to
the dust, and ~,b,iund madatnantine chains." How
could it be supposed that a difference in religious
opini,nis would render a tuan less flithful in the dis-
cli,n'ge of his public duties. Would it dminish the
wisdern of the Minister, or damp the ardour of LW- 1
General
Earl STANtuoik was not very much disposed to
quarrel with the •iinthor, wuo, it was itleati°fled,
askL d it was vt ise to give 4 set of men a
o'n a year to lean men slimy.. A great deal had
been said about ihe_tinitormitv ot.Protestanoi. Uuw
'113:7 vlitlerences did the House NMI: existed be•
tween the C 0010101) water books of the Uuitersittes.
of itbridge and Oxford ? Only three thous.tud siz
liiindretl and odd l This was confortnity with a vett-
tv;itlr.•_!. He &mid not stidiciently praise the Right
It..v. Prelate: who hal supl orted the hiotien, atta
'who WaS ;it-) miserably ans,vered by the Priest
followed him. Did not the fdtter know, thatitt the
,British Museum -Cw here it was placed for the pur-
Po'e .of giving it the terooA publicity) there was a
declaration and. prOtestation of theltiglitili Cathof
lies, in which they positively denied all the impute*-
tiuns that had been thrown on them with respeCt to
tho temporal authority of the Pope, allegiance to
their Suvereieei, keepingfaitli with' heretics, ?
'roe Irish catheli'es, as he had been well informed,
completely concurred in this declaration of their
English brethren; and it was shameful therefore to
..conetitte libelling them, after they had so explicitly
"clis.clainied the obitoxim:-s do'triue which they had
been sieposed to hold.
Lord Alut.Gitv4ve tV;IS fiaiisfed that the discuasion
nt his spa jet could produce nothing but irritatious
and mischief. Hu Lontrasted, the oonduCt of the
Noble .Lords opposite when ia.power eith,their eon•
duet they were out of power. When in power,
tle,y,were ready to refill/014i Vett a cotmiaratively
ateasure lbg time relierof the Catholics;
tlovv they were out of wer, nothitig would content
vtheta nut a. fui and complete concession. The
li iron that this concessien Wit! he.
e"'sary torine of the Empire. If lie ,
thought so when in office,' he ought to have declared
It; if his o,wlion had C tatiged, ti ought to explain
Ille Caa,e of that ohange. A great dehliion. was ;
fira6lised by stittiel, teat three millions of people
were interest .d in this quest ion, when ill tatt, not
more' than *;sere hundred could be attually ins
*rested: tle wished, however, to be distinctly
understood, as giving opinion on the Qat/italic •
qzzims; whist he mean.. to state was, diet it was
thiherea to agitate the question when
its fthis'inust bra alitalp,lted;
lIW 8:71r1 of iluzlitvottAxsittaa had a great af.
e'4',"ti rot Ireland, aid could never forget the many
,
• Ltintlilesses that he had received in that country; but
ir ks as c 11Vitp.ed,
that if he proposed measure were
ttdr)i)tuct, tusioad of trauqiii,lizing, it would material.
cis!, r!i ii,e peace Of .thatTcoun ry. Seats iu Par.
Were hut. file only ohje6t of the Catholics.
:•12te y w:teed at sohlelh:ng more. of the Irici Mem,.
b r s that 'woelch heti bk returned, four-titths would
.k
e Catholics. If the House wished to ascertain the
11"6"ce, of the Irish Members in the other ilotise,
,1e would refer them to a di;ision on the Additional
,
"'e. Bill, 'in which, although the majority of the
444131i51i .leiiiber's were averse' from the Bill, the
tt. itprity of the whole House were in favour of it. -
Tilt*. :Duke of NOnFoLlt Shpported the motion.
gvelling to the poNer of rejOine; their Bishops,
that the Catholies vtrte villin to give his Majesty',
exp:ained it- inert! lull They Were disposed to
uY, before his Majesty a list of three persons, of
I°lll his Majesty rejeded only two; the remaining
IC would be invested with the Episcopal dignity;
b
it his Majesty were to reit& the whole three,
1, "?o another list of' three distitta persons would be
Ac9nitted to "his consideration, and so on until his "
a3estY should"signify his approbation of any
1,-d
tlal, by allowing his name to remain.
Lord Ensitig_
took a view of the condo* towards
the Catholics,' that had been pursued flow the corn.
rvilen. cement bf the present reign. It was one by
tell trust .and confidence had properly been re-
Posed in them without any requisition to take those
oaths which their religious opinions would not per.
not Re could not see why that confidence should
be carried turtiier, and he would therefore sup.
port the motion.
'!(1114, rd HAwleasatiay had hoped, both from the
-I_u_,llo of the Learned Lord when this subjed was
efore Parliament, as well as. fin li in his ttow-
t'h_uife o
of the laws: and constitution of his country,
he would have voted against the motion, and
for ;t. For his own part, he should fail in his
ne 'did not declare enost decidedly, that his
on to graining the prayer of the Petition did
phi% relstion times' and circumstances, but on
thri, _ opinioo was tbunded on leis convittion,
vi.t,
the ylielit;i9t .Glvernieent alone Was corisistent
aws atat cimstitution" of the British Empire.
?al
on.tard, had said, by whiotp the 'question. had been
light btle
ita,tice that\ it WOuld be no in-
bk.t,au:"ktVP e-loinae .Catholic- from the Crown, ,
~‘ ~nmperson who .eouid have apy pretensions