The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-12 00:00:00

the example of the Secretary to the Admiralty in hi!, first
speech on this debate, in derAing in accusations against
Whig Governments and Tory Governments.—( Hear,
hear-) But this be would say, that preceding Govern-
ments had been compelled to make great reduction,,, where-
as the present Mrnistry had experienced no opposition on
the Naval Estimates.—( Hear, hear.) The error of the
present administration of naval affair's was, in their disposi-
tion of the naval force which they did possess.—( Hear,
heir.) For a long series of years it had been the naval
policy of this country to keep a certain number of ships of
war in time of peace constantly in readiness for any service
that might be required, and that was a wise policy.—( Hear,
hear.) No serious apprehensions could be entertained as
to immediate agg!essions from the Baltic.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) But in 1826, let it be recollected
that when a naval force was required to be sent

to Lisbon, it was the boast of Mr. Canning that in one
week the whole 11!_et was on its passage.--( Hear.) That
was effected by having a eertain number of men-of-war
always in readiness—and he (Capt. Gordon) feared that
not one single m m,of war could now be got ready for
service in the same period.—( Hear.) An experimental
squadron vas sent out in 1836 under Sir Charles Paget's
command, consisting of the 11:1-cules, the Minden, the
Bellerophon, the Pembroke, :Ind the Vanguard. The
Hercules sailed with seven teen on board, who could

take the lead, and only double that number who
could take thc.. Hear. hear, hear.) The
Minden never could get beyeud Plymouth Sound. The
Vanguard and the Bellerophon, both happened on the
same day to ly:corne dis•tbled ; so that of the whole the
Pembroke alone was fit for service.—( Hear.) With re-
.

spect to the manning of the ships, difference of opinion
might naturally be entertained aci to the home station
ships ; but this (Cartain Gordon) would contend, that
no ship of war should leave this country for a foreign sta-
tion without being fully manned, as well as being fully
equipped, for every emergency that might arise.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) Much had been said of manning ships
in time of peace. One great cause of complaint
was the great change in the coasting trade; now
it was a great satisfaction to him to hear from his

lion. Friend opposite that the coasting trade had increased,
and be was happy to say that it was likely to increase
if steam vessels were increased also. According to the
statement cf the Honourable Member opposite, almost
the whole of the costing trade was now carried on by
steam-vessels. He could not but remark on the impolicy of
giving men in the Navy pensions after 21 years' service.
In his opinion those pensions ought to be given at a much
shorter date.—( Hear, hear). What man, he would ask,
would enter the service under such conditions ?--( Hear,
hear.) The coast-guard had been alluded to, and also
the ordinary ; lie would pass that by, as the observations upon
that subject had been so excellently dealt with by other lion.
Members.—( Hear, hear.) A good deal had been said on
the subject of building ships. Now upon that point he
feat himself called upon to agree with the observations of
the lion. Member, in his remarks as to the deficiency of
steam-vessels. He trusted that the Admiralty would turn
their attention to the subject of turning merchant steam-
vessels into men-of-war. In his opinion a great deal of
good might be effected by turning small 74-gun ships into
powerful frigates.— ( Hoar, hear.) Much had been said
en pamphlets that had been written. They had been
stated to come forth from Tories. Now, what was the
real fact ? Why, no lion. Member on either side of
the House could state that those pamphlets had been writ-
ten from factious motives. What were those pamphlets ?
One had been written by a Flag Officer, who had been se-
.

eerily handled by the Gallr.tit Admiral opposite, in hia
opinion totally without foundation, for he was inclined to
ieve every statement that had been put forth. Who
wi! e the eflic, rs that had so written on this subject?
Could they be accused of Toryism ? Certainly not. WaS
Captain Napier a Tory ?—( Hear, hear.) Was Captain
Marryat a Tory? or was Captain Berkeley a Tory? and
last, though not least, was Captain Craufurd a Tory ?
( Hear, hear.) Then the only question that remained was
whether Sir John Barrow was a Tory ?—( Hear, hear.)
Having stated thus mull, he would leave it to the Co.n-
mittee to say whether there had been any Tory or factious
opposition put forward to the present proceedings ?
(Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he could only say that
be regretted that the Hon. Member opposite had not
come down with a better argument for the vote be in-
tended to give.

Mr. ELLIOT was surprised at the course that had
been taken in the present debate. It was said that this
was a party question ; be denied it, and he could not but
regret the smooch that had been made by the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite, at Glasgow. There was a great
difference between the present oppositio❑ and the late op-
position—the laie opposition hsd opposed the measure
from Liberal principles, but the present opposition was
from a far different motive. It was said that the pay of
men of war was exceedingly small compared with the
pay of men no board a merchantman ; that
might be- the case in short voyages, but in
long ones it would be found that the men on
board a man-of-war had the advantage, besides having
pensions and bounties. With regard to the question of
short manning, it had been stated by an Hon. - Member
that men would not enter the Navy in consequence
of the ships being under-manned. He did riot profess to
be a judge whether 160 or 180 men were the proper
compbment for the crew of a jackass frigate, but
if any man entered into. the merchant service under the
idea that he would have less labour than on board a
jackass frigate, he would find himself egregiously mis-
taken. A merchant ship of 700 tons carrying 1,000 t,:ris
of cargo, had 35 men, and all hands were obliged
to be turned ty to do work ht all times. Comparisons
had been made with the present state of the Navy, to what
it had been some years ago, but the men were now more '
advantageously ei.-cumstanced in many respects, both
as regards pay and punishments ; punishments could for-
, merly be inflicted at the discretion of the Captains, but now
they were subjected to several restrictions. The deserip-
' tion of men in the Navy it had been said were worse now
than they were Wmerly, lie would read them a decrip-
tion of the crew of the Caledonia in 1811:,—(Th-e
:Gentleman here' eead the 11,,t,bY-which it appeared that
her crew contained several ftreinet's in it; and in addition
to able seamen that there entered into the' composition or

it a curious collection of tailors, hair-dressers:, weavers,
wheelwrights, soap-boilers, pattern makers, sawyers,
masons. butchers, clerks, wool-coinhers, " and," con-
eluded
the Hen. Gentleman, "thirteen I'm sure I don't
know what."—( A laugh.) What would be said, he would
ask, bad such a list as this been produced as the crew of
a ship scut out by the present Government to the Gulph
of Mexico ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM considered it incumbent to ad-
dress the Committee after the speech of the Hon. Gentle-
man whe had just sat down, who had talked of tailors
and sawyers, and attempted to treat the subject with ridi-
cule, but lie would rather be the object of attack of the
Hon. Gentleman than be capable of entertaining the feel-
ing which had induced the Hon. Gentleman to make the
observations ke had done, and treat the subject in such a
manner. Tire speech of his from which the Hon. Gentle-
man had quoted, was in answer to the attacks made on
him on this subject in the newspapers connected with
the Government, the statements of which had been
brought forward the day before in the Town Coun-
cil at Glasgow, during the debate which took place
in that body, as to the propriety of presenting him with
the freedom of that body ; it had been necessary
to defend himself from these attacks, and he would ask how
he could have done so more cautiously ? he had asserted
nothing respecting the present state of the Navy because
he had then no means of testing the accuracy ot any state-
me, to that might be made, but he bad asserted that the
administration cf Lord Melbourne was not the same as the
adrr inistration of Lord Grey, and, when he considered the
small remnant of Lord Grey's Cabinet that remained in
Lord Melbourne's Cabinet—( Hear, hear)—a remnant
growing small by degrees, and " beautifully less"—a rem-
nant which had even grown less since the commencement
of the present Session, and which would he thought, possi-
bly, may probably, be still further reduced before the ter-
mination of it, he would net shrink from repeating that
assertion ; but he thought that this was too high and im-
portant a subject to be made the arena of party attacks
(1-/ear, beer, hear) but there were two points
from which her Majesty's Government had deviated from
the policy pursued by him, first with regard to the demon-
stration ships, the facts would prove that although the pre-
sent land roleit be superior to him in point of economy,
yet it was inferior in promptness and efficiency. The
letter of Captain Napier which had not been noticed by Sir
John Barrow, aryl for which the author had been appointed
to the command of a ship, says, in answer to a speech on
this subject, that the Rusell demonstration ship in 1835,
had been got ready for sea in three weeks. Now, let the
House compare that with the ca:;e of the Ganges, which
took three months to get ready for sea. Again, Captain
Napier's own ship the Powerful, had been commissioned
three months ago, and was only just now able to proceed
from Sheerness to Portsmouth, with 200 men short of
her crew. Again, he would call the attention of the House
to the case of the Impregnable. The Malabar had re-
turned from Canada with her fulrcomplement of marines,
officers, and seamen. Her Majesty's Government, desirous
to fit out the Impregnable with the least possible delay, had
turned the whole of the crew of the Malabar over to her
more than a month ago, and she had not yet left Plymouth
Sound, and yet the Russell had been got ready in three
weeks. The experiment bad b-en tried three times, and
here again he would repeat that the Administration of
Lord Melbourne was not the Administration of Lord Grey.
Again, upon the subject of launching, great mistakes had
been committed by her Majesty's Ministers. During the
three and a half years of his naval administration ho had
launched seven ships of the line, and left three ready for
launching, two of which he supposed were those that were
about to be launched. He found no keels bad been laid
down, and had laid down five—stone had been laid down
since. Many of the ships in ordinary, when he left the Ad-
miralty, had required large repairs ; as the duration of aship
was tested by its age and its repairs, many ships which
were at that time in Class A., might new, perhaps, be in
Class C., and be not worth more than two years' purchase,
in consequence of their having received the necessary re-
pairs, and he beseeched her Majesty's Government, not to
delay a single day in making arrangements on this subject.
With regard to the reductions that had been made in the
Dock-yards, there was no opportunity of testing its effects,
owing to the addition which had taken place in the
day's labour ; but although her Majesty's Government
had taken additional labour, they had undertaken more
than they ceuld accomplish. The Hon. Gentlemen had
talked of the advantage of leaving ships under cover with-
out launching them. He believed that that experiment
had succeeded, but then it behoved the Government to
make new ships, in order to enable them to continue
building new ships. At present they halted between two
opinions; they kept the ships full, and would not task for
more, so that it was impossible that ship-building could go on.
In 1835 matters were not in the same position as at present
—the state of their foreign relations was not such as to
command so large a vote as in the present year. He ( Sir J.
Grahlm) had in 1836 encountered the unpopularity of
voting in favour of the increased estimates, conceiving that
the reduction proposed byl the Hon. Member was at the
period inexpedient.—(
iaro' hear.) He had heard no
answer given to the speech f his Right Hon. Friend the
Member for Tamworth, as to the present distribution of
tl.e force. If 11,,•_.:•.-J was eo f.4pre,aetiston of foreign
aggressiuu why was it stecessary to have el even sail of the