The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-23 00:00:00

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

110US.E OF _LORDS, FEB. 22.
The . LORD CHA:,:cr:Li.oR took his seat on the Wool-
ACk a few 'minutes after Five o'Cloek.

CORN-LAWS.
The ERrl of RIPON presented petitions in favour of the
Corn-lawz from si•vrral parishes in the county of Lincoln.
The Eatl of DURHAM presented a petition from
'PraY'tng for the abolition of the Corn-laws. The Noble
Earl said fie was requested by a Noble Friend of his (Lord
Kinr,aird) to present similar petitions from Peebles, Ayr,
Arbroath, Fik, and Perth.

IRISH TITHES.
Lord CLONCURR presented a petition from some
Parish in Ireland against tithes, and stating that they did not
Plink it just that the Catholics of that country should
have to pay for . the support of the ministers of the
Protestant Established Church. The Noble Lord stated
that he did not think the present law would be satisfactory
--oil the contrary, it seemed likely to produce had feelinii.
The Earl of WICKLOW expressed his surprise that
the Noble Lord should not have declared his objections
to the present Tithe Act when it was before the House.
Lord CLONCURRY said he was not there at the time
or he would have opposed the Bill.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said the Protestants
of Ireland were the proprietors of most of the land, and
it was most unjust that the Catholics should obj,ct to pay
the tithe rent-cha.-ge, because that being the produce of
the land, went to the support of the Protestant clergy.
Lord CLONCURRY said nine-tenths of the pro-
duce of the land was raised by the Catholic tenantry,
and they objected to pay towards the maintenance of an}
but their own religious instructors.
Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition in I's-our of
the Corn-laws'; also a petition from the Shepton Mallett
Church of England Lay Association against ,any further
Want to the Popish College of Maynooth, in Ireland.

CANADA.
The Earl of RIPON begged to ask the Noble Marquis
the Secretary for the Colonies, when the Appendix to the
Canada papers—which Appendix was referred to in
those papers as most important—(Herr, hear)—would
be laid before the House. It was most important that it
should be produced before the discussion on Canada took
Place.

The Marquis of N 0 RM ANBY replied that if he had
had an hour's notice, he could have answered the question;
as ia was, he must defer the reply till Monday.
INSULT ON THE BRITISH FLAG.
The Earl of MINTO rose, and said—My Lords,
then I spoke last night upon the subject of the seizure of
ue. Mexican pilot from a British vessel, I was not sure how
how
of my information had been derived from private, and
ac'w much from, official sources. Since then I have looked
into the despatch of Commodore Douglas, and I beg to
lead an extract, it is dated Vera Cruz, 21st of December,
838:—" I have also had the satisfaction of receiving an
explanation from the French Admiral on the subject of
the pilot who was taken out of her Majesty's Express packet,
the affair having been entirely through inadvertence on the
Part of his Royal Highness the Prince de Joinville."
(as we understood the Noble Earl to read). If any Noble
Lord will move for a copy of this dispatch, I shall be happy
to produce it.
Lord L YNDHURST—Your Lordships will, perhaps,
satisfied with what the Noble Earl has read—if it contains
all that part of the dispatch which refers to the matter.
Lord COLCHESTER asked if the Noble Earl could
atate whether the apology of the French Admiral was
verbal or in writing.
The Earrof MINTO said he could not even from pri-
vate information answer that question, but the paragraph he
had read to their Lordships contained all that referred to
the matter in that dispatch, though there was a hint in a
former dispatch that a certain occurrence had taken
place, and that it would be inquired into.
Lord COLCHESTER said the explanation was satis-
factory as far as it went, but he thought the public ought to
annw the exact nature and extent of the reparation which had
been offered by the French Admiral, and if the Noble Earl re-
ceived any further information, perhaps he would lay it
before the House.
The Earl of MINTO—My Lords, if the reparation was
satisfactory to the Commodore it must have been satis-
lactory to your Lordships. I trust that Noble Lords
will not atempt to probe and penetrate this matter
in the hope of discovering some little plea that might
create dissension between two countries now so happily in
friendship.
Lord COLCHESTER said he had no intention of cre-
ating any ill feeling between the two countries, but as it had
been admitted that an insult had been offered to the British
flag,surely the officer through whose inadvertance it had been
received, ought to have received such a reprimand from his
superiors as would prevent such an occurrence in future,
and this would tend to prevent rather than to cause any
dissension between the two Governments.
Lord HARDW IC KE presented petitions from St.
Ives, Stilton, and various other parishes in the county of
Iluntingdoo, against any alteration in the Corn-laws.
Lord YARBOROUGH presented petitions from Win.
terton, and a great many parishes in Lincoln, against any
alteration in the Corn Laws.

IRELAND.
Lord RODEN said ho was fully aware of the im.
Rertance of the subject about to be brought under discus-
sion by his Noble Friend near him, and therefore he should
not detain the House long in putting the question he felt
it to be his duty to put to the Noble Marquis opposite—
he felt it to be unnecessary to go at any length at present
into the question, as he had already stated his in-
tention of shortly, bringing the state of his unhappy
Country under the consideration of their Lordships ; but
he should feel himself guilty of a vary great dereliction of
duty to those amongst whom he lived and loved, consisting
of all classes and denominations of his fellow subjects in
11:0and, were he to allow one day to pass, after seeing the
Noble Marquis take his place in that House, without putting
aquestion to him on the subject of the awful circumstance
which had lately happened in Ireland under the Govern-
:ll; ent a the Noble Marquis. He should divide his ques-
"on into three queries, and he hoped the Noble Marquis
would find it necessary to give a satisfactory answer to each
of those queries. He wished to know whether any in-
f°rination -had been given to her Majesty's Govern-
:tent in Ireland likely to lead to the detection of
`"0 murderer of the Earl of Norbury ; whether
anY perons were in custody charged with that crime; and
whether the Noble Marquis had any reason to expect that
that alarming conspiracy against life and property in Ire-
land, from which the atrocious event, as well as many
others similar to it had emanated, was likely to be disco-
vered and suppressed? He felt it to be his bounden
duty to put these questions to the Noble Marquis.
"0 knew the very great interest that was
taken in this country, as well as in Ireland, as to the un-
happy spirit that was abroad there. He hoped the Noble
'Marquis would give a satisfactory reply, because it was
no small satisfaction to him (Lord R.) to know that in
all parts of England a very large proportion of the corn-
,snunity felt severely for the unhappy state of his country
'— -( Hear, hear)—and the cruel conduct that was pursued
by eam •
;ma persons there.
:The Marquis of NORMANBY said that the Noble
Lord Opposite, when he gave notice last night of his in•
se
• 1 `etion to put a
_question to him, intimated that he did not
..;d4llll to show anything but courtesy to him in his mode of
. °lag -see. ; Certainly, on all the various occasions
Tit which. Irish affairs' had been mentioned in that
cinse, • the Noble Lord opposite had never in the
B.oghtest degree given occasion to complain of the
want of courtesy, or of his not having given the fullest in-
illation of his intention. He (the Noble Marquis) un-
derstood now that the Noble Lord was looking forward to
the day when he should be able to brine. forward the motion
"which he had given notice, and which he (the Noble Mar-
Vs)trusted would not be far distant. To the first question of
liuletibilob Lord he could have no objection to give an answer
timoneale lfirmatiye, as far as his information existed. At the
e left Ireland, there were three persons in custody—
two ju
n one part, and another had been taken up in a very
remote district, upon suspicion of having been concerned
in the murder. He had not heard what progress the investi-
fielation had made with respect to the share which those persons
ad had in that lamentable and mysterious event. He was
Sure the Noble Lord and the House would see that it would
be rather inexpedient that he should answer the second
Question, namely, what grounds there were, or how far it
Rag likely, that means were at hand to arrive at a just
eenclusion. With regard to the third question, which he
understood to relate to a conspiracy—hit had formerly had
an opportunity of stating to the Noble Lord that the Go
vernment of which he had lately been at the head, had
always been ready to receive and anxious to examine
Into any evidence tendered to them of any supposed con-
spiracy. , He was far from admitting at this moment by
this statement that this melancholy murder had originated
•in any such circumstance.—( Hear, heir, from a Noble
Lord opposite ) The Noble Lord opposite cried " hear,
hear," but he (the Noble Marquis) was only an-
swering the question of the Noble Lord. He could
assure their Lordships that he looked forward
with great anxiety to the time when he should be able to
wleet the Noble Lord opposite in respect to a resolution
"h'eh, if the Noble Lard did not move, he certainly was
- tit the meeting at which it was moved ; and at present he
' would only say, that anything in that resolution he indig-
nantly repudiated ; he challenged a discussion of the sub-
ject, and looked forward with anxiety to the period when
the subject should be brought forward.
• - Earl RODEN was sorry that the answer of the Noble
Marquis was not satisfactory as to the second question,
which related to the number of persons charged with crime.
The Marquis of NO RM ANBY had forgot to state his
• onpressions on that point, so far as be was allowed to do
:°* lie could assure the Noble Marquis that the sic-
' -.Yity of the constabulary and the officers of the Govern-
znent were such that no pains would be spared in order
to bring criminals to the bar of justice.
The Earl of RODEN—With respect to the third ques-
tion, he was extremely sorry that he was called upon to
make a few observations. The Noble Marquis had
stated that he did not believe there was any coil-
-I.,Pirace existed in Ireland, hut he ( Earl Roden)
egged leave to ask whether the Noble Marquis had not
received from his own officers—from his own people—in-
f?rynation that there existed a wide spread conspiracy,
either in the name of Ribandism, or some other name ?
}\.y. hatever might be the Noble Marquis's opinion, or whatever
1
'e might state to their Lordships upon the subject, he ( Earl
R._ ) would rather take the opinion of the venerable Judge
Who lately presided at tee Tipperary Special Sessions, who
tt'ited that many cases of crime, that were to be brought
forwardi,.e there, arose out of a wide-spread conspiracy.
the vroulu rather refer their Lordships to the resolution of
te, twenty•ene Magistrate* in Westmeath, resoluti.ona
wnieh were worthy of their Lordships' consideration,
wherein it was stated that a tremendous conspiracy,
111_11,6' eeterreltended a large portion of the people of Ire-
"a, was at this moment in existence.
. The Marquis of NO RM ANB Y was very sorry to in-
terrupt the
concludeluito it, with motion
Earl. If the Noble Earl intended to
his he was perfectly ready to go
but it was must irregular to go into the discussion
Pon askinz questions.
, Lord BROUGHAM quite concurred with his Noble
l 'lend- The question mu conic on again, for the pre-
Sent unexampled state of Ireland demanded attention ;
• but that
was v .
i disee,e .
s d the very reason why it ought not to be
s in such a manner ; and because he was

deeply impressed with the conviction that Parliamsat could
not shrink from the question, he wished that the Noble
Earl would not bring it en in such an accidental and
incidental manner, and that without notice to the
interestej or the House. It was not due to the
importance of the subject—it was not due to those whose
conducl was to be impeached, nor was it due to the Noble
Earl himself, the the question should be discussed in such
an irregular and unsatisfactry manner.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—The Noble Earl
certainly gave notice yesterday.
Lord BROUGHAM—Oh! I heard the notice given.
The Noble Earl said that he would ask certain
questions—he had done so already—he has been answered
by my Noble Friend—lie has twice reps irked upon them,
and surely that is enough.—( Laughter.)
The Earl of CHARL E SALL E (with great vehe-
mence) said he rose in consequence of the personal
allusions which had been made upon hint by the.
Noble Marquis opposite. He begged leave to tell
the Noble Marquis that he (she E srl of Charleville)
was happy to meet him face to face in that House. He
should be prepared very shortly, upon the receipt of peti-
tions from that counts', to
.justify the course he had taken—
the canduct of the Magistrates aul the resolution he had
pr..)posed, and he must say that he wak star
prised to find a Minister of the Crown rising from
th,t bench to bring a charge r,:-yainst.hitn, for exercising
his right as a British subject in petitioning the throne and
both houses of Parliament.

The Marquis of NO RMAN BY could not see any
ground for the very great excitement under which
the Noble Earl seemed to labour. He (the Mar-
quis of Normanby) had made no charge against the
Noble Earl. It was the Noble Earl who bad made
a charge against him, and who had stated that he
would not appeal to the Government, because it had
not done its duty._( Hear, hear.) All that he had
stated was that he believed it would be found
when the case came fully before their Lordships, that the
Noble Earl had not that cause for complaint which
he himself believed. The Noble Earl had found
fault with his conduct, and there was nothing
derogatory to the character or conduct of the Noble Earl
and his friends, in his (the Marquis of Normanby) stating
his desire, upon the very first opportunity, to meet that
charge.
The Earl of CH A RL E VIL L E acknowledged that he
had recommended his friends to petition the Crown, and
he felt satisfied that when the case came before their
Lordships they would find that he had sufficient grounds
for doing so.
After a few words from the Marquis of LONDON
DERRY,
,
The Earl of RO SS MORE was in hopes that there
would have been no necessity for his intruding on their Lord-
ships' notice. When a subject. however, was brought for-
ward by the Noble Earl opposite, he should be prepared
to meet him. lie belonged to the same county,
and on behalf of the King's County he should be prepared
to meet the Noble Lord face to face in that House.
The conversation then dropped.
The Marquis of L ANSDO WNE presented a petition
from Wilts against any alteration in the Corn-laws.
Messengers from the Commons brought up the Poor Relief
Ireland Amendment Bill, which, on the motion of Lord
DUNCANNON was read a first time.
THE NAVY.
The Earl of COLCHESTER in moving for returns
respecting the state of the Navy, felt that he had some right
to claim the indulgence of their Lordships. The subject
was one of the most vital importance as it regarded the
state of their naval defence. Ho would not have brought
it forward, but finding that a Noble Friend of his who had
given a notice on the subject had discharged it, and no other
Noble Lord having taken it up, he felt it his duty to bring
the matter before the House. It was probably in the re-
collection of their Lordships that shortly before the close of
the last Session of Parliament, viz., on the 14th of
August, during the discussion of a question relative
to the state of America. a Noble Duke whom he did not
then see in his place, made some remarks on the weak state
of our ships on the coast of Mexico se id Buenos Ayres.
On that occasion the Noble Earl at the head of the Admi-
ralty stated that if the Navy was not now in an adequate
state for the public service, it was his fault, and he believed
it would be found to be in as efficient a state as on any
former occasion. Two such contradictory opinions
from two such high authorities created a great
sensation out of doors. Letters were written and
published in the Newspapers, and pamphlets were
printed, circulated, and those who took part against the
system pursued by the Board of Admiralty, were denounced
as factious ; their facts were questioned, and their state-
ments said to be unfounded. But in the present year there
were two publications from two distinguished officers, both
signalised in the public service—both supporters f her
Majesty's Government, and one of them a Member of it.
The first of these letters was addressed to a Noble
Lord, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs,
by a most distinguished officer who is known
as well for his gallantry and courage as he
was for holding the most liberal opinions as, they
were designated. His talents and courage were admitted
on all hands, and he would refer particularly to his service,
in Portugal. He need not more particularly specify the
individual—it was Captain Charles Napier. That Gallant
Officer addressed a letter to the Secretary of State, in
which he pointed out what he conceived to be the very
inadequate state of the naval defences of that country, as
compared with the state of other naval ,Powers. He
showed that our ships were few and ill manned, while, on
the contrary, the Navy of Russia was in such a state that
they might, whenever they pleased, come down upon our
coast, destroy our arsenals, and sweep our commerce
from the face of the seas. These were not his ( Lord Col-
chester's) opinions, but those of the naval officer wli
he quoted.- The letter concluded by observing that whe-
ther the Noble Lord (the Secretary of State) would take
it in good part or not he could not tell—that he Wil3
friend to the present Ministers, and wished to remain so;
but as a naval officer he felt it his duty to point out the state
of their maritime force. That was the statement of a most
distinguished officer ; it was not originally published, but
was addressed to the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs. With respect to the other part of the question,
as to whether their ships were sufficiently armed or their
crews sufficiently well practised in their duty, he would
refer to a pamphlet from another Gallant Officer,
a Member -of the Board of Admiralty, but whether
he continued so at present, he (the Earl of Col-
chester) did not know. That Gallant Officer had
thought fit to publish certain remarks on
the work of Sir John Barrow, which was probably known
to their Lordships as a defence compiled from official do-
cuments, and dated from the Admiralty. In that letter it
was stated, that their ships were in a most inefficient
state, and that such were the opinions of a large majority
of the practical men of every grade in the service. Such
were the opinions of gentlemen who were supporters and
Members of her Majesty's Government. The Gallant
Officer then went on to show that the reason why
men would not enter ships of the line was because
they were worked with the complement of
small frigates—that men would not go into a vessel with
275 hands, a great portion of them being boys, to do the
work of 350 hands. The Gallant Officer then went on
to point out how these evils could be remedied.
He then proceeded to state that those men who had
served for twenty years in the Navy had for their good
conduct received pensions, but under the present arrany,e-
enents those men if they re entered the service were de-
prived of that reward. The consequence was that they
served in merchant-ships, and even in foreign merchant-
sh;ps, rather than on board her Majesty's vessels. What
did the Government gain by that? Nothing. It was no
economy. (Hear, hear, hear.) The place which
those men would have occupied would be filled by
others, and by men of an inferior description. The Go-
vernment by a false economy lost the services of efficient
men, without gaining any advantage to that question. He
trusted the Noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty
would take this matter into his serious consideration, and
he would not fail to see that that cause of dissatisfaction
to our seamen should be removed, and that they should be
allowed to keep their pensions. He would only trouble
their Lordships with one more extract, which was
this—" If we are to have a Navy which the
world should respect, now is the time for arranging
it perfectly—now is the time to make that selection of men
that will carry the country through in the hour of trial."
The writer also stated that other nations had made great
improvements in their navies and were still going on im.
proving. The evidence of the two gentlemen he had re-
ferred to sufficiently showed the inefficient state of the
ships. What he intended to move for was, returns of the
number of seamen and marines ordered by Parliament in
1818, 1823, 1828, and 1833 and subsequently, up to the
present year; of the number of ships in commission in the
same years; of the complement of such ships serving on the
coasts of Great Britain and Ireland; the complement of
marines ashore attached to the same ships, and of the
marines serving abroad up the 31st of March, 1838.
When those returns were laid on the table their Lordships
would be able to judge of the comparative force kept up at
different periods. The first period to which he would
refer was the year 1792, and he did so because there had
been ten years of peace, during which time our Navy had
gradually decreased. The number of men then in the
service were 16,000 ; that was previous to one of the most
terrib'e wars this country had ever witnessed. We were
not, therefore, because this country was in perfect peace,
to go on decreasing the number of men, or delaying to in-
crease the number until it was too late. It appeared
that in 1792 the ships stationed for the defence of our
coasts consisted of eleven guard ships of the line, four
frigates, six third-rates, fourteen sloops, fifteen cutters, and
other small vessels. In those eleven guard-ships were 2,670
men. By calculating the complement of the smaller ves-
sels in the usual manner, the whole force of men then
employed on the hoMe station, amounted to 7,000. By the
official Navy Estimates published last year it appeared
that we had for a similar service four guard ships, two fri-
gates of ten guns, two cutters, manned altogether by 2,000
men. If added to those another ship of the line might be
considered on the home station, they would amount in all
to 2,500. So that in 1792 when there were only 16,000
men in the service altogether, there were left for their own
defence 7,000.—( Hear, hear.) In 1318 when our war
establishments had been considerably reduced, and we were
in a state of peace—he was not able to state precisely the
number of seamen, but he believed there were about 13 000.
At the close of the war we had gained many additional co-
lonies that required defence, so that a larger force was re-
quired than previous to the weer of 1793, and still for the
home defence nine ships of the line. In 1823 the number
was about the same—in 1828 it was also the same. In
1819 three ships of the line were considered sufficient fur
all the foreign service oat
in the Mediterraneen, one at
in the time of
.its abroad.
at St. Helena. That was what
the East Indies, and er.2
was then considered a suffietee:: force
profound peace to protect our trade and int;*. -
In 1833 this number was materially reduced. They ie,,e4
then only three ships of the line, and a very small quantity
of guard ships, and nal only were the home-course ships
reduced, but the complements of the ships had been re-
! duced also. In 1818 the guard ships were kept in order
that they might be put to sea at a short notice. In that
year six sail of the line were sent to sea in the course of a
few days. In 1819 it was considered necessary to
I raise a body cf seamen for what was called the Coast
Blockade for Kent and Sussex. Afterwards it was

thought right to' reduce the crew of the toiard ships
in order to form this force. In 1831 this force woe
aholi,,hed ; the Coast Goers' ..vas put an end to, and the men
were sent oo hoard the line-of-baetle ships. In 1833 there
only remained three first-rate ships, having on hoard 250
or 300 men. He now came to the state of the heme-
coerse for the present year. Ile believed that at the pre-
tient moment the °lily ships were the Howe, 1:20 guns and
185 men; the 13,.itannia, 1.20 goes and 183 men ; and the
Royal Adelaide, with somewhere about the same number
of guns and men, so that there were three first-rate ships,
having less than 900 men among them—a number which
was not a proper complement for even one. —( Hear.)
There were also, he believed, one ship of the line the Edi-
nburgh, with 550 men, and a frigate with 36 guns, two br'gs
and two cutters, all of them having together some hing
less than 2,000 men ; and of all those ships there was only
one that was fit to go to sea. With regard to the Foreign
Service, he had read copious extracts from the work of a
celebrated author on that subject; and, therefore, with re-
spect to that service, it was not necessary for him to do flu-
ther than to state, with reward to the three Adiairel's ships
stationed ,it the C.ipe of Good Hone and North America,
those ships had been pit forward among the sail which
they lied been told by different publications were the de-
fence of this coletrv. The Wallace, one of the vessels,
it was trite, had been put upon a different footing, but
the Melville, at the Cape of Good Hope, had been sent
to sea withoat a proper complement of men. That vessel I
had 'neon sent. out with only 432 men, and so strictly had '
the economy been carried out, that the officers were paid, 4
not according to the rate of the ship, but only about one. I
fourth of the rate.—( Hear, hear.) That, he thought their I
Lordships would say, would not hold out very. great 4
encouragement. In the Mediterranean, he believed, we
had a larger force than was necessary. There was one
ship of the line there, two frigates, several sloops of war,
and about 2,000 marines He would now compare the
naval force of this country with that of other countries. Sir I
John B irrow, in his wo:k, had given his comparison be-
tween the navies of Russia, France, arid England. In I
1823 Russia had 42 sail of the line, and 50 frigates, while I
England in that year had only 33 sail of the line, arid 43
frigates. In 1839 Russia had 98 sail of the line, and 43
frigates. Russia, therefore, had increased considerably,
and the number of men in proportion, while England had
decreased. It appeared from the work of Sir John B ir-
row, that the total number of ships in the 'Navy of Eng-
land in commission were-21, sail of the line, 9 frigates,
and 23 steam vessels, and there were 3 guard ships, with
less than one-third of their crew, and less than that number of
guns. France had in commission 10 sail of the line, 16 frigates,
and two armed steamers. The ships of the line of Franco
Were standing almost close to their own shores in the Me-
diterranean, while the vessels of this country were scat-
tered about. Russia had 40 sail of the line in commission,
and 24 frigates. It was further to be remembered, that
France and Russia, from the mode which they adopted of
manning the navy, could at any time increase the manning
of their ships. They were always kept ready to be em-
ployed when wanted, and the men were always trained to
all the duties of soldiers. This country, on the contrary,
as regarded her ships in commission, had to trust to.volun-
tary enlistment, so that it was generally three months before
they could be put into a state fit to go to sea. He thought
their Lordships would see from what he hed stated that
our force in commission, scattered alt over the world as it
was, with only four ships at home, was much less efficient
than the force in commission in either France or Russia.
Having given this comparative statement of our force, it
was necessary for him to call the attention of the House to
what was likely to happen if a sudden call for the service
of our fleet came upon us. He had no wish to say any
thing exaggerated of - Russia. lie was willing to give to
the Emperor of Russia the credit of being a wise, prudent,
and just Prince, who would not needlessly keep up a war
with any country. But when he saw that that country,
which had the greatest fleet, within only fourteen days'
sail of us, with 28 sail of the line, and 24 frigates, we
having but four sail of the line and one frigate, and those
ships 300 miles apart; he could not think that if any sud-
den cause of war arose we should be in a situation to meet
and repel an attack with such a force—not only from the
smallness of the number of our ships, but also from the
circumstance of its taking a considerable time to fit out
those we had and put others into commission ; for the
purpose of doing which we should either have to trust to
voluntary enlistment, or pot that into force which their
Lordships would certainly not unnecessarily put into
force, viz., impress. It might be argued, as it had
been argued, that we should have time, because
war was preceded by negociations, manifestations, and
declarations. If we looked to history, we should
find that manifestations and declarations had been very
often accompanied with powerful hints. If one looked
hack to 1717, to the fleet that was destroyed by Sir
George Byng, this would appear pretty manifest. Again,
if we remembered when Commodore Martin was before
Naples, he was instructed to send a message that if the
troops were not withdrawn he should batter down the
forces in an hour's time. That message was delivered,
and at the end of an hour a convention was signed, with-
drawing the troops. He thought that in 1801, when the
fleet was in the North it entered the Sound, and passed
the Sound, he believed, without knowing whether there
would be war or peace, and in a very few days afterwards
Copenhagen was destroyed. In 1807 Copenhagen was
again bombarded and taken possession of without a notice
of war (Hear, hear, hear.) Again, at the time
of the Dutch bombardment of 1832, he believed
that on the same day the Proclamation was issued, the fleet
was put into a state of sailing. So that there had been
Many instances of war without many very convenient
notices afforded by manifestoes or delarations. His Noble
Friend near him reminded him of a case that came nearer
home, viz :—the burning of our ships in the Medway, in
1767 ; and that was not during the time of peace. A ne-
gociation had been carried on for some time previously,
from which it was thought that , things were settled ; so
much se that the Sovereigiedisl-noteleink itaaeeessary that
there should be a powerful fleet kept •up. The-historian
Hume had told us that in Charles Il.7sitime,,by.pot.:acting
in time the country had been exposed to. ea,- greater
affront than it bad ever received. Hee !Might': quote ,
more instances, if it were stot..tedieVie -Of aggression
even within the last seven ''•
the part of the French fleet. Supposiufg-th'ere;:ivas,nOt an
effective force at present in the Medway, there • would be
no difficulty in completely blockading our ports--( Hear)—
and in sending a fleet along our eastern coast; and under
the present circumstances if that were to happen it would
take at least a month before we could send out a fleet.
Now, he would remind their Lordships of the effect of a
month's blockade upon this country. We had always a
great number of merchant-ships bringing over the riches of
other countries here, and all those shops with their cargoes
would be at the mercy of those who had possession of the
seas. If the ports were blockaded there could be no im-
ports ; and by a paper laid on the table of that House a few
days ago, relating to the duties paid on goods brought in
by navigation in 1833, it appeared, that the amount of duty
on.import goods was very near 23,000,0001. a year. The
blockade for one month, therefore, would deprive the
revenue of nearly 2,000.0001. That was not all—the
export of British manufactures amounted to about
43,000,000/. a-year, which was about 3,600,000/. a month,
and the manufacturers would have that quantity of goods
thrown upon their hands by a blockade of one month. Now
he thought if manufacturers complained so much of the
restrictions against the importation of foreign corn, they
would have more reason to complain if they were deprived
of the opportunity of exporting 3,600,000/. worth of goods
for a month. But lawn it was said we had got a very
fine fleet in the Mediterranean sea. So there might
be, but it would take a-week to send that fleet to
Malta, even if the fleet was assembled there, and it
two' o u 1
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git
ra
tk f
l de
wa h
nuhl I
wmoounl tdh
tut oa k
etake
five it w
ef rookms Malta
But
then it might be said, go into the city and you may at any
moment get as many steamers as you like. He would first
call upon their Lordships just to consider the expense of
hiring those steamers, because, if it was expected that
they were to be hired for the purpose of coming into
collision with other vessels, he apprehended they would be
got for very little less than their full price. But were
they fitted for war ? or were they built of sufficient strength
twooucladr7oguns From
ry
d?
tennitill
steamerslie
bhuacillthesuard, theirffieiently Lordships
strong
to
carry a gun, such as ought to be carried by a man-of-war.
Then what were they to do? The question seemed to him
to be very simply answered. It was merely a question of
pounds, shillings, and pence. Let their Lordships increase
our home force to what it formerly was. Let us have ten
or eleven sale of the line, fully manned, or manned suffi-
ciently to be enabled to put the fleet to sea at a very short
notice. The cost of keeping eleven such ships up, as there
would be 6,000 more men required, would be 450.000/. per
annum. If their Lordships could ensure against the risk
of losing the amount per month of what he had stated, he
did not think the country, as the Noble Earl had said,
would be unwilling to grant additional supplies, if it were
thus shown, that the Navy required it. But there would be
other advantages from keeping up a force of ten or eleven
sail of the line. We should be able to re-inforce any part
abroad at a moment, where from any natural cause, such as
hurricanes, and so on, in the West Indies, or other places,
it was impossible to expect to keep an efficient force
for any length of time. We should also be able to
send them -to sea every year to exercise, where the
officers would see some practice. He would venture
to sly that a great many of the under officers of our
Navy never saw practice ; for although they might get
our ships into order within a comparatively short time,
he was afraid that some of the officers would nut
be found to be very efficient in practice, at least fur
a time. There would be another good effect from the
course, and that would be keeping up the national feeling
it, favour of our Navy. Any one going down to Woolwich
would he more likely to see ships fitted up for carrying
out convicted felons, than for carrying out our Navy. The
last time he was down to see a ship of war, thousands
came from all parts to see it, and it was regarded as quite
a new sight. He had no.v gone through the different
points with which lie intended to trouble their Lordships.
Ile thought from the statements he had made the House
could levelly fail to be of opinion that many of our ships
abroad were not properly manned ; that the num-
leer of our ships at home were too few, and that the
complements were too small, and that Government ought
to be called upon to make some increase in respect of
what he had stated. Thanking their Lordships for the in-
dulgence with which they had heard him, he begged to
move for the returns mentioned in his motion.
Lord MINTO could assure their Lordships that he had
great satisfaction in discussing and in answering, in the pre-
sence of their Lordships, whatever might be alleged
aeainst the administration of the Navy. From the whole
tenor of the Noble Loi.cl's address one would really have
imagined that he (Lord M. ) stood there having greatly
reduced and impaired the naval resources of the country--
that the state of the fleet at this moment, instead
of being more powerful and more numerous than
it had ever been known to be at any former
the time of peace, had been reduced
period ."ere unable to provide for the
so low that we raetty "se Noble Lord,
ordinary service of the country. ...
on a former evening, disclaimed all party motive; in tee._
proceedings. He gave Noble Lords entire credit for their
tedief that such was the case; but'there was nothing so
difficult as to ascertain what the true motives of one's own
conduct were. It was very difficult indeed to trace the
workings of one's own motives ; and he would beg of those