The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-13 00:00:00

WASTES AND COMMONS.

Lord WORSLE Y moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the Act 13th George 111., for the better cultivation,
improvement, and regulation of common arable fields, Wastes
and Commons of pasture in the Kingdom. The Noble Lord
then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend an Act passed '
in the 6th and ith year of the reign of William the IVth rela-
tive to the enclosure of arable fields in England and Wales.
The Bills were then brought in and read a first time.
Mr. LYNCH moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
enable married women to pass their interest in chattels
personally. The object of the Bill was to remove an
anomaly in the law, which had been productive of
great inconvenience. At present a married woman might
dispose of her interest whether in possession or reversion;
and, in like manner, a husband or wife might dispose cf their
interest for a term of years.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He would ask why there should be a difference between an
assignment or disposition and a release ? Nothing was so
important as uniformity in the law. If there was not uniformity,
nothing but litigation would ensue. The law, as it at present
existed, was a complete anomaly. He did not see why the law
should interfere, when the husband and wife agreed. The Hon.
Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN hoped the House would not
think that a fit subject for legislation. The law, as it stood,
had existed ever since the law of propecty had been established.
It was the only property over which a married woman had
a complete control, and might in the instance of a husband,
who was dissipated or unfortunate, be the only property
left for the subsistence of the wife and her children.
He, therefore, trusted, without provoking any di3cussion on
the Bill in its present stage, that the law would be allowed
to remain as it was. He (Sir Edward Sugden) did not ask
the House to alter the lay, but to leave the law as it stood.
He had no object in ♦iew but the due administration of
the law. _ _ __ _ _

Mr. O'CONNELL submitted that it would be better that
the discussion should take place after the recess. The law
r _dating to this subject had been certainly altered in some
respects, not by the Legislature, but by the Judges, who were
the real law-makers. It certainly was a subject that ought
to be considered, and if the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
(Sir Edward Sugden) would give his assistance, and he (Mr.
O'Connell) would say in the Right Hon. Gentleman's pre-
sence that higher assistance could not be obtained—either in
rejecting the Bill altogether, or in correcting it, that the ano-
malies which at present existed might be corrected, and great
benefit would be derived thereby.
Dr. LEER° Y said a few words which were inaudible in
the gallery.
Sir R. PEEL said, he did not mean to express any opinion
upon the individual measure now before the House, nor had
be any objection to its being brought in. But he hoped the
law officers of the Crown, would consider the bearing of
individual acts upon general principles.—( Hear, hear.) Com-
mission had been appointed to consolidate the law : but, if
Members of Parliament, with the best intentions, (and
perhaps, regarding the abstract proposition, perfectly justi-
fied,) were, without full consideration, to bring forward
individual propositions upon the general statute law, and
these measures were allowed to pass, the statute law of Eng-
land would become more complicated than it at present was.
--( Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) made these remarks the
more because the Hon. Member (Mr. Lynch) had no less than
five notices upon the books for one night, fur legal measures,
(bear and a laugh)—and if every Hon. Member followed his
example, why our legislation would indeed be very compli-
cated --( Laughter and hear, hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENE R A L said, in reference to the
general observation of tho Right Honourable Baronet, that he
entirely concurred in it. As to the subject particu-
larly now under discussion, he could not conceive the
i propriety of giving a married woman a reversionary interest in
land, and not in money. —( Hear, hear.) If it were said that
the power of disposing of reversionary interest in money might
be made the means of assisting usurers, that might be made a
I ground for taking away the reversionary interest in land also.
At all events, he thought his Hon. Friend ought to be allowed
to bring in his Bill.
Mr. LYNCH replied.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
FICTITIOUS VOTES (SCOTLAND).

Mr. IIORSMAN rose to move for the appointment of
a Select Committee—" To inquire how far the intentions
of the Reform Bill are defeated by the creating and register-
ing fictitious and improper votes in Scotland." The lion.
Member said that he would not trouble the House with any
observations, as he did not anticipat2 any opposition to his mo-
tion.

The names of the Committee having been read by the
Clerk,
Mr. PRINC'xL E said that he had not heard the names un-
til now, and that he was much surprise d at the constitution of
the Committee. A few evenings ago the Honourable
Member for Monmouth, in moving for a Committee to
inquire into fictitious votes in Scotland gave in the names
of the same Committee, which sat during last session. Now,
he certainly expected that the Honourable Member opposite,
would have followed his example, and would have given in the
names of the former Committee. There were only two g en-
tlemen who sat upon that Committee, who were not now
Members of that House, and so far any objection which
might be started on that ground fell to the ground. The
Report of the Committee was looked for with great anxiety
by the public, and who he would ask were so qualified to frame a
satisfactory Report as those Honourable Gentlemen who
heard all the evidence ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would
not say that such was the motive of the Honourable Mem-
ber, but it was liable to such an imputation ; and such being
the case, he felt bound to assert that it would not afford satis-
faction either to the House or the country at large. He should
therefore move that such Hon. Members who were on the Com-
mittee last session should be restored to the Committee, with the
addition of such other names as the House thought proper. If the
Hon. Member was not prepared to adopt that course, he
should move that the subject should be taken into further
consideration to-morrow. —( Cheers.)
Mr. HORSM AN thought that the charge which had been
brought against him by the Hon. Member opposite was the
most extraordinary he had ever heard. If lion. Members
had said that they would rather not serve upon a Committee,
he knew of no power which the Hon. Member or the House
had to compel their attendance. There was not a single
name that had been omitted from the Committee except at the
wish of the Hon. Member himself, and in every instance in
which Hon. Members had been omitted, their place had
been filled up by the names of Hon. Members of the same po-
litics.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman had stated that he
had dealt unfairly with the House, in consequence of not
having communiceted with those Members who filled the Op-
position benches. He certainly must admit that he had not gone
to the Hon. Member opposite, but he had conversed with the
Noble Lord the Member for Buckingham.—( Cheers.) If he
had not spoken to the Hon. Member for Selkirk, it was the
fault of the Hon. Members on that side of the House in not
stating that he was the organ of their opinions.—( Loud
and repeated cheering.) His only wish was that every ob-
jection should be heard and maturely considered.
Mr. PRINGL E said, that if the Hon. Member had given
notice of his intention to vary the names of the Committee,
he could have no objection to the adoption of such a course ;
but the reading the names from the chair was the first intima-
tion that he had received of such an intention.

Sir R. PEEL trusted that, under all the circumstances,
the Hon. Member would not enforce his motion for the ad-

journment upon this subject.
Mr. HORSM AN said that he lied expressly stated to the
Hon. Gentleman that he would ende-avour to get the old Mem-
'bers to serve, and, in case they declined to do so, he would
procure others; but those names had not been shown to the
Hon. Member for Buckingham.
Sir R. PEEL said the principle on which the Committee
had been formed appeared to be a fair one, and he had under-
stood that the Hon. Member for Buckingham had entirely ap-
proved of the substitution.
Mr. R. STEUART said the Hon. Member for Buck-
ingham, as he understood, approved of the substitution
of the Honourable Member for Weymouth and himself.
Mr. FORBE S made a few observations which were inau-
dible in the Gallery.
Sir T. FREMANTLE understood the intention to have
been to propose to Members who served on the Committee last
year to continue their services the present Session of Parliament,
and the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Horsman) agreed with
him that the Members of the Committee were all returned
except two—one on each side. He also stated to the Hon.
Member that as his time was very much occupied, he wished
to be excused from the Committee. The Honourable
Member suggested Mr. Hope Johnstone, and he ( Sir Thos.
Fremantle) mentioned Mr. Hope, the Member for Wey-
mouth. The Honourable Member for Cockermouth agreed
with him there were difficulties, but he presumed the old
Members of the Committee would be re-appointed Kith the
addition of three names. He confessed he was astonished to
find that in the list now before him there were names of
Gentlemen introduced who did not serve on the Com-
mittee last year, namely, Mr. Robert Steuart, Lord
James Steuart, Mr. Edward Ellice, jun., Mr. Gillon, and Mr.
Charles Buller.—( Loud cheers from the Conservatives.) If
the House thought fit to approve of the Committee, as it was
at present formed, it was not for him to object; but he must
protest against his name being used as agreeing to a Committee
which necessarily involved a great deal of party interest,and where
one party would accuse the other. He thought it extremely
desirable the Committee should be selected from both sides of
the House, and it did not appear to him to be a fair Com-
mittee as it was at present proposed.—( Loud cheers from the
Tory Benches. )
Mr. HORS AN begged leave to state that he did com-
municate with the lion. Baronet opposite his intention of
asking some Reform Members on his own ( Mr. Hotsman's)
side of the House to become a part of the Committee, and at
the same time desired that he (Sir I'. Fremantle) would also

q7' • , "''''

„,lc ax equal ut;li.ll:er
had declined or w,,re hot in the House. The,e were Mr.
Maule, Mr. Devitt, Mr. E. Bulwer, and some others, in
whose places he had substituted those names which the Hon.
Baronet had complained of.
Sir T. FREMANTLE did not anticipate that names
would be substituted for those in the House. He thought it
was for those she had formed the Committee last session, and
were hot in the House this.
Mr. HO RSMAN had not the least unwillingness to have

I:

the names changed.
Sir T. FREMANTLE explained.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the House must decide upon the
mode of appointing the Committee, and he trusted such Mem-
bers would be ap,,ointed as would make it their business to be
in attendance.—( HeNI-, hear.)
Sir G. SINCLAIR suggested that in future it would bo
advisable that the names of Committees should be given in the
day before, and printed with the votes.—(Hear, hear.)
After some further conversation, the appointment of the
Committee was deferred until to-morrow.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND.)
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN, understanding that the Attorney-
General for Ireland was about to introduce a Bill having the
same object which he (Mr. O'Brien) had in view, withdrew
his notice for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law rela-
tive to the registration of votes and taking the poll at elections
in Ireland.

EAST INDIA AFFAIRS.
Mr. CRAWFORD moved for the following returns,
.100
which he understood no opposition would be offered :
saicnecoeu
tnhteorfe
tallu r
nmnol na
de ye- st so
upplied e
rfr
oo from
ht
eh eHroeuvseen
of
fe st
ho In
dia
ef
7th of
July, 1836, towards the payment of the expenses in Englaad,
chargeable on those revenues, particularising, as be f othe
monthly and annually. The amount of bills drawn by
Court of Directors on the several Governments of India,
in separate accounts, of each Presidency, for moneys Pri•Lci
into the London Treasury of the East India Company, PP
•
the rates of exchange at which such bills were issued
The amount of remittances, in separate accounts, made by
several Governments of India, and by the East India Con,-
pnny's agents in China, to the Court of Directors, specify;
the duties of remittances as advised in the registers received
from India, and the dates when the said were received into
the London Treasury : whether the due payment of those re;
mittances were protected by the hypothecation of goods, c,
by any other security, with the rates of exchange at whien
such remittances were made. The amount of bills drawn bY
the East India Company's agents in China cx the severali:
governments of India, with the rates of exchange at which
such bills were issued at Canton ; also an account of remit-
tances from India or China, since the commencement of tte
present Charter, in silk or any other description of good!,
specifying the invoice cost in Indian currency and BOO:
sterling money, with a statement, if sold, of the net proceeds
realised in London ; also; an account of any remittances re.
ceived into the London treasury of the East India Company'
in re-payment of advances made in India on account of
Majesty Government, and also made applicable towards the
payment of expenses in England chargeable on the revenue
in India." The Hon. Member also moved for copies of a,"
letters which have been addressed by Messrs. Crawford, Cali
vin and Co., to the Lords of the Treasury and the Board
Trade, with the replies thereto on the subject of the duty
levi able on ,Mysore coffee imported from Madras in the
Onyx and Sesostris. Copies of all communications which have
passed between the India Board and the Court of Directors of
the East India Company, in reference to the question whether
Mysore be a British possession. Copies of the certificates
granted by the collector of sea customs at Madras, and lodge('
by the masters of the ships Onyx, Sesostris, and Claudine,
in the Custom-house at London, purporting that the MyOre
coffee imported by those several ships was " the growth of a
British possession within the limits of the East India Coin-
pany's charter." The lion. Membe- believed that the Pre-
sident of the Board of Controul objected to produce the cot'
ie,pondence between the East India Company and his depart-
ment. He therefore thought it necessary to make out a case
by noticing as slightly as possible the questions which bn•
longed to the Treasury, as he was only at issue with the
Board of Coutroul. The question arose in 1836, when the
first importation of coffee took place from Mysore into ere,
port of London, whether Mj sore was for the purposes 01
the Act a British possession. That was the question, aria
the correspondence on which he wished. The grounds of
the correspondence requested in a communication made by
the Lords of the Treasury to the Board of Controul, for the
pm pose of calling on the Board of Directors to send instruc-
tions to India to prohibit the granting of certificates by the
Madras Government, certifying that the produce of Mysore
was the produce of a British possession. The Directors, not
concurring in this view, refused to obey the order, but, in tl'a
meantime, coffee coming from Mysore was charged with s
duty of ninepence. The Hon. Member, after going into
lengthened detail, expressed his conviction that the COr.
respondence was of a public nature, and ought to be fur-
nished, for the information of the House. The lion, Gee"
tleman concluded by expressing his wish that the GovernmeDt
would correct the existing evil, by passing some declaratory
Act which would proteet British merchants, and at once short'
whether the territories in question were British posses3io'‘
or not. •
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said that the Chancellor of' the
Exchequer, in consequence of certain ships having arrive
with certificates, declaring that the coffee with which they Were
freighted came from Mysore, had applied to him to know whe-
ther Mysore could be called a British possession. He cool I
only give his Right Hon. Friend an answer to this effect, that
the territory in question was not considered, technically, a Br"
tish possession. It was true, that this country had the civil
and military administration of Mysore ; but, since 1833, th 3
English Government could only be considered as holding it i:1
trust for the Rajah of Mysore, and whenever the East Ind.l
Company might think proper to restore it to the Rajah th:4
country would be held responsible for every shilling expended
with regard to it. This opinion he delivered in writing to th
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, in consequence of some
representation made upon the subject to the Court of Direc-
tors, he ( Sir J. Hobhouse) had received from them something;
in the shape of a remonstrance, and the vnatter was no sub
judice. It was, therefore, he considered, decidedly against
the interests of the friends of the Hon. Member for London
that this correspondence should be produced ; at all events,
the present state of the case.
Sir J. R. C A RNAC agreed in what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Baronet,
Mr. CRAWFORD then withdrew both his motions.

IRELAND.
Mr. LYNCH moved, pursuant to notice, for leave to

. ,
troduce the four following Bills :-1. Bill to promote the re-
clamation and improvement of uncultivated lands in Ireland.
2. Bill to enable tenants for life of estates in Ireland to make
improvements on their estates, and to charge the inheritance
with a portion of the moneys expended in such improvements.
3. Bill to enable tenants for life and mortgagors in possessive
of lands in Ireland to grant leases, and to enable tenants for
life of lands in Ireland to make exchange, and for giving a
summary remedy for partition in all cases as to lands in Ire-
land. 4. Bill for the better and more convenient employment
of the poor in Ireland.
After a few words from Sir E. SUGDEN, Mr. LYNCH, and
Lord MORPETH, leave was given to bring in the Bills.
SPANISH EMIGRANTS.
Mr. BORT H WICK said, that as he did not see the Nobled
Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, he 1,1,1 r
some delicacy in bringing forward the motion of which ge
.
had given notice, and in moving for the papers named in 1
He had also another reason for hesitation in the fact that im-
portant business, viz., the Message from her Majesty, w";te
the Orders for that night. Perhaps the Noble Lord oPP°sid
(J. Russell) might be able to suggest to him whether he °-
with convenience proceed that night.
HuAnf.temresmombeer,exrepllaatnivaetiotnn btheteweimenpotrhteenNeeobofle
tLheordpapa;rt dine
• he
wished to move fur, and, as we understood, an expression e,.
the part of the Noble Lord, that he did not imagine thes'
would be much objection to their production, and that there
was none to his proceeding with his motion, tat°
Mr. BO RTHWIC K trusted he might be allowed to s 10
a few of the grounds on which his motion was founded. '
1833 the quarrel of the succession in Spain assumed that
..5..
for-
midable aspect which still continued to press upon the in6ll
try, to excite the passions, and to cloud the hopes of that
vi,
un-
fortunate country. Donna Christina, who was then, as no to
the de facto Regent, adopted divers measures with respeeth,
the succession, which were calculated to rouse the scare e.:..,
slumbering passions of the people. He alluded more paor.,
ticularly to the manner in which the Royalist troops, ehnich
sisting of about 250,000 men, were disbanded ; a body,w„al
up to that period had been considered as the princoro,
bulwark and shield Cf. the country. Many men of high from
and consideration in Spain had thereby been dismissed wcra
offices of importance, because they approved of what con-
called Royalist politics in Spain. This created so math and
fusion that hatred began to assume the form of violence state
violence, in many instances, that of bloodshed. In 0.150 had
of things a body of men, to the amount of 950, aslif these
formed themselves into a corps of volunteers in support ?., por-
politics, had found themselves obliged to seek refuge to
rt,', in
tugal, and ought afterwards to have obtained their hi
4: re-
virtue of the treaty to which his motion more particu',4hle
ferred. A Gentleman had some time ago asked thef
and
Secretary for Foreign Affairs as to the present prospects d.
resse
future hopes of this corps. The Noble Lord then etseP de-
ft as his belief that their situation was not so desperan . other
plorable as had been represented in the newspapers a
iclacdin
quarters, but said that he would forward the
his hands by the Hon. Member for Oxford tpoettttlie°7:
Government, and communicate the answer as soon as
ceived it. Under these circumstances he (Mr• Borthto which
lon of the papers ,riend
would not have called for the product.
His 1-1", r he
he referred if it had not been for two facts.
Sandwich had, by the
(Mr. G. Price) the late Member for Sandw
laid'
before tlle
authority of the persons so imprisoned,f of their case, and_
Noble Lord a statement of the a
but to that eornsmellitt.
required his interference in their behalf;
time
to the
vh,Pr‘that
nication the Noble Lord had from that
te facts ? N• -• . St.
given no reply. Now, what werein a ravelin oParst
he er see_
of Fortun
eon_
those persons were now confined
. . v.,'
ditioi.ally to the Christino Governmtheey
would be spanresetn y
whatever might be their fate, thath,
broad ground of huin it
that
serious a calamity. It was on 1 ,
d.
Julian—that means were on foot for cleelti,veardn
as their advocate w
re , in
and not of policy, dint he appear
recollect what occrci. a
at the
House. Hen. Gentlemen would gthtahtemtheuypPrilt,
sCarlos 95u
death of his brother, King Ferdinand,
yere
then with Don
0.
stifiable
private individual. There i.
the 600 of whoseuJ
theta"
1833. In 1333 Don Carlos wear
Spanish emigrants, of whom
t and they formed. s These
complained were a par , „ ~sn carto • • te.
detention he
the protection to
me art in
selves into a battalion for
sword, or took
rsidbeutitt
lii
"Y
opntrary, til
the h
parties never drew sabre or
_ss.,ertw,a, ;
00
cich they be"
object If
themselves to the only
strictly confined thcmseto
IPivoerdtuat_haere
as a
quarrel against the Queen of I

14 vie
w• name the protection of Don Carlos.—( Hear.) Don
finallyduel capitulated,and
the agreement—the inter-
Port agreement--then entered into between the Queen of
ugal and her allies, the Evora Monte treaty, was inserted
tion4.additional article. In an historical work on the revolu-
4, liiSpain, by Walton, he found a translation of this treaty.
Bso, Is Royal Highness the Infante Don Carlos shall leave
with his suite on the 30th of the current May, for Al.
ltlega, where he shall embark.
In
tourtn his Journey thither the Marshals of Portugal will
kiteet for the personal safety of his Royal Highness and
itioy, and provide for him such escort as his Royal Highness
e 3,6 M out.
!sioee he Spanish subjects who may be in Portugal, compro-
' in the service of his Royal Highness, shall be received
kProrisional depot at Santarem, whither they shall go un-
slell escort as may be necessary for their security.
of The Portuguese Government shall give them the means
subttotrisistence in the depot until they may be able to go there-
N:lithout danger to some other place of residence."
rt in pursuance of the stipulations contained in this treaty,
ketseuggested by Mr. Grant, the Secretary of his Britannic
tho'VY's Legation then in Portugal, that these 950 persons
)iiini.`" be assembled at Aldea Gallego, and that proper pro-
Iv! should be made for their protection. This was done.
tit_re Were then but two ships of the British flett there to
`e them
et,,e away, and in these vessels 240 embarked, and were
:Yetl to Antwerp and England, according to the terms of
it !hi , s left 680, whose liberty, up to this time, had
been calledt in question, either by the Portuguese or
leite( er em ,per Government. At Aldea Gallego these men were
teed defenceless and unarmed, and instructions were after-
%it given to them to go to Santarem, on the understanding
et all necessary provision would be made to insure their
e,
10,e1 and protection. No such protection was, however, af-
fro'ed to them, but still this body marched the whole distance
Aldea Gallego to Santarem in the short space of five
seYi3's It was melancholy to recal to mind the hardships
o
they had to endure during those five days. Suffice it
stlhtY that in one short month, from the 30th of flay, 1833,
vitt, 30th of June following, no fewer than 272 of them fell
Niels to either assassination or disease, brought on by hun-
ttiand improper treatment.—(Hear, hear.) From Sante-
e, taa deputation from this unhappy body subsequently went
to ti:hon, and represented their forlorn and unhappy condition
1N.,. Portuguese Government. Upon this they were removed
o,o'Santarem to Torres Novas. The deputation, the House
eottnd understand, travelled from Santarem to Lisbon with-
their liberty having been once called in question.
l
there
Were also permitted to go on board the fleet, and had
The been room for them they might have remained on board.
e
re was not, however; they therefore returned back to
%tar
eon to communicate to their companions the answer
skit", they had received from the Portuguese Government,
To,..tney then were allowed to proceed to their new destination
er"el Novas, and bad as had been their sufferings before,
qtheir real misery commenced. It was not until the ar-
-011111 of the Ambassador of Donna Christina that the foi tunes
„° emigrants claangesl—that their hopes were slashed to
th:lv ; for it was tile* for the first time that they heard of
ocrntentio* to deliver them up to flee tender mercies of a
ke.:rnment so liberal and humane that its most cherished ge-
set" was the buteser of women and the desolator of towns
village-.—( Hear, bear.) Ia their next march from Torres
v(ta to Peniche numbers of them fell a sacrifice to the ma-
lug bands of peasantry by whom they were attacked. and
'engh they travelled under a military escort, not a soldier
len- guard fired a single shot in their defence. When they
h'ved at Peniche they were followed by two cartsful of their
et:laded companions, and even at Peniche they did not fare
ite `ltr. for oae of thew, a Colonel, was heartlessly massacred
t,,0 hovel where he had been placed. From this place the
keliter part of them were sent on board the hulk Don Pedro,
7 the remainder, about eight in number, were transferred
oietlae Castle of St. Julian. It was an extraordinary state-
,eat, but nevertheless a true one, that out of 680 men there
pfl„ s diminution, in the short space of three years and a half,
8b
produced solely by disease, brought on by cruel and
treatment—(Hoar, hear.) The account on which
1,1 made this statement was dated the 19th of Novem-
toitta but of course he had no mcaas of knowing how
16,1' had perished since. He thought, however, that the
so-,,1e fact of such a diminution having taken place within
oiltlizaited a period was in itself enough to startle that House
till_ to require her Majesty's Government promptly and at
kce to interfere in their behalf.—( Hear, hear. ) said that
kOnneequence of the absence of the Noble Lord, he would
et the
his statement of facts, and he should do so ; but he
`,ne same time must entreat the House to bear in mind the
permit
situation of those unfortunate persons, and to
Mme
him to refer to letters which had been received from
tieke of the prisoners—men whose honour could not be
The
confirmation of the statement which he had made.
thue Honourable Gentleman then read letters from several of
4!. prisoners, describing their wretched condition. Having
fished the perusal of these letters, the Honourable Gentle-
en went on to say, he thought that this was a case in which
1, Strong arm of power ought to be used, and he did hope the
tt,'‘ttsb
who had Government would advise tlie instant liberation of
if
committed no crime—who had not been guilty
io violating any law. He knew it had been said that Don Car-
-1 was in want of soldiers, and that these parties would be an
keqUisition to his cause. This was not the case. These priso-
wsre willing either to be exchanged or to go to any
other country than Spain. They were ready to sacrifice their
teeiirights although they did not consider themselves as pri-
to,e
rs of war-4 Hear)—but they were not w;lling to whomtZered up to the tender mercie; of a Goyernmeht from
hait companions had suffered so deeply. He held in his
Julianasattdan ocial return from the officer In command at Fort
as to the number of the prisaners confined there
92 find board the Hulk. In the former the number was
;in the latter 230 besides nine ladies. The whole of
ane n
d prisoners were kept in unjustifiable and cruel confinement,
Was stated that they were not allowed even a sufficiency
of
in Provisions. There was not, he believed, a case parallel
this to be found in the history of any country of which
tee was a record.—( Hoar.) The Hon. Member then read
tae ft
"e letters om Commandant Roderi.*tiez to Don Ramon
qSalvador. These letters were down to the 19th of last month,
4o,,eti they showed that, instead of liming relaxed, the sufferings
herethose prisoners had rather increased, and that their numbers
ttiere almost daily diminishing, from the severity of the treat-
vent they received.—( Hear. ) The object which he bad in
111ely in mentioning the few facts which composed this mon-
r°l2e and unheard-of case was, that the whole of the papers,
*litb the answer of the Portuguese Government, should be laid
loetbe table of the House, in order that it might be seen
t "ether the sufferings of these persons, inflicted under a
Ilie!'t,Y by which protection was guaranteed to them by the
11:41:fish Government, was not only a violation of the law of
et.,3118. but a direct insult to this country. The Hon. Gentle-
tan, in conclusion, moved for a copy of the Convention of
same, Monte ; and also a copy of the letter enclosing the
tirne, addressed by Mr. Grant to the Infante Don Carlos ;
t !c, a copy of the letter addressed to the Secretary for Fo-
Zgll Affairs by the Commandant of the depot of Spanish
&rants detained in the hulks, mid in the prison of Fort St.
‘l,ian at Lisbon.
th Lord J. RUSSELL said that as there was no objection to
e production of the papers for which the Hon. Gentleman
hi 'ered, it was not his intention to offer any opposition to the
.s.l'rition. As to Don Carlos, all he would say was, that he was
vtslest fortunate in being allowed to leave Portugal, because had
'1 not been for the British Government, had he remained in
that country, he would, in all probability, he would, in all pro-
, ability, have been taken and tried for high treason. (Cries of
Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.)
, Mr. BORTH W ICK said that Don Carlos was fully sensi-
ble. so were the prisoners, of the conduct of the British Go-
vernment at that time, He held in his hand the correspon-
,it"ee connected with the treaty of Evora Monte, and he must
Z~that much credit was due to the British Government for
Course they pursued on that occasion, and he only hoped
eo°, Y would now act in the same spirit, and not allow themselves
(tpe influenced by the machinations of others elsewhere.—
'ear, hear.)
%Colonel E VANS said that there had been great alacrity on
tht part of the Honourable Members opposite to go into
lb° general subject during his absence from this country; and,
tc'mpliance with the expressed wish of many Hon. Members
n's his side of the House, he was most anxious to bring it
'rward not so much as regarded himself, but because he
;Wed; such a course to the officers and soldiers who had served
der him, and against whom aspersions had been poured
out
both in that House and by the press, under the influence
bl,'„ethe Hon. Gentlemen opposite The fitting opportunity
1.17`1 not yet arisen for entering upon such a statement, and
lerefure he now gave notice that it was his intention, irnm-
oetely after the recess, to bring the whole subject under their
: 11tideration.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Borth-
itk) had complained of prisoners being confined in the hulks
41Itiravelins of Fort St. Julian ; but what, he should like to
111,°''f, had that to do with the English Government? Such a
btrge might be made against the Government of Portugal ;
tiiitt then the House should recollect why they were confined—,
ft t they were confined as prisoners of war.—(.‘ Hear, hear'
(Itn the Ministerial benches.) The complaint was, therefore,
loßPoundless one, and the only question was whether a ravelin
,44 not better as a prison than a hulk. It was, however,
0 vo- alPlained that the Portuguese Government had violated the
ert'N'ention
Carlos of Evora Monte ; but was it not clear that the fate
t/on involved that of all those who followed him
per guard ?—( Hear, hear.) They were, in fact, national
ei
e!end'44lerson the and consewill oqufeeitherntly ththe e disposal of them could not
or the British
seta ,vernrnents. He would not at present go further into the
eila connected with the conduct of Don Carlos ; but he
frost be allowed to say that any one would be led to suppose
111 the statements of the Honourable Gentleman opposite
thath they were in entire ignorance, or the facts were so mystified
tesot, ' they could not understand them, for otherwise they would
111 commit themselves by coming forwa.d so frequently as
14-Y,had done r.s the advocates of Don Carlos. They must
klutogether ignorant of the Durango decree, or the fife)
tub subjects who had been massacred under that decree,
eeoruleY never would have taken such a course.—("Hear,
. from the Ministerial benches.)
iete r CANNING had not come down prepared to enter
Ij a general di-cession, but he was happy to know that the
o-
thennurable and Gallant Officer opposite intended to bring
subject connected with his own proceedings before the
14,„-t ',Te at an early period after the recess. Ile could assure
te""ontahle and Gallant Officer that there was no wisl•
•
Part of his (the Conservative) side of the House to
,vikli„:7- from such a discussion—(hear. hear)—but lie must le
'ae,ed to say that the Ilonourable and Gallant Office;
l'efe," just cause of complaint in consequence of any
Ivlie:nee hick had been made to him on any one occasion
(1.1 - the affairs of Spain were mentioned in his absence.—
ear, hear.Colonelof EVANS had nothing to complain of on the grounii
Illeet'utten with respect to the Right Honourable Gentle-
ati nor had anything been said by him which lie could feel
Palatable. With regard to what the Hon. Member (Mr.

ktkiii
tilthc
Or thi
itt?iv,

Bortheick) had said about his being actuated by feelings
of humanity, and not by political motive:, all he (Colonel
Evans) could say was, that it was this observation which had
caused him to rise. He said that, on the score of humanity,
and without any reference whatever to policy, Don Carlos was
the last description of Prince who was entitled to either the
sympathy or compassion of that House.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said it had been stated that nothing to the
prejudice of his Honourable and Gallant Friend had been
said in the course of the debates referred to; but did the
Hon. Baronet not recollect that on the very day information
of a slight defeat experienced by his Honourable and Gallant
Friend was received, an opportunity was sought to bring the
whole subject forward; and that aspersions and charges were
then made, not only against him, but the whole corps which
he commanded. With a full recollection of all that took
place when the matter was brought forward, he could only
say that he was glad his Honourable and Gallant Friend
would have an early opportunity of going in detail into the
whole subject, as the conduct pursued towards him was any-
thing but fair.
Mr. LUCAS would never shrink from the discharge of his
duty, and he would feel himself perfectly at liberty to speak
of the conduct of the Gallant Officer in a public sense, or
of any other individual, whenever lie felt it his duty to do so.
If the Honourable and Gallant Offieer was absent from his
duty in Parliament upon that occasion, he felt quite sure that
all who took a part in that discussion would have felt better
pleased that the Honourable and Gallant Officer had been pre-
sent. What he wished to assert was the right of a Member
of that House to express his opinion upon any subject under
discussion.
Colonel EVANS said that the Hon. Member had asserted
the privileged right of a Member of that House to speak freely
of the public conduct of any individual. As far as the general
conduct of any individual, he did not mean to deny that right.
But did the Hon. Member mean to say that there was any in-
stance of a similar course to that which had been pursued
towards him and the troops under his command? If the Hon.
Member could point out any instance where a similar course
had been pursued towards a British officer or the troops under
his command as had been pursued in his case he would then
consent to the applicability of the vague generality which the
Hon. Member had put forward.
Mr. WYNN considered that the right of a Member to dis-
cuss the public conduct of any individual in a public point of
view in relation to any questions before the House could not
be denied. (So we understood the Hon. Member, who was
indistinctly audible.)
Mr. L A MBTON, on the occasion of the discussion respect-
ing Spanish affairs, thought that the Hon. and Gallant Officer
had been very severely dealt with.
Mr. GO ULB URN had never spoken harshly of the con.
duct of that Hon. and Gallant Officer, nor did lie suppose he
ever should. But when a question came before the House as
to the policy of continuing British subjects in the service of a
Foreign State, when persons who objected to that policy, and
who might entertain strong objections to the course that had
been altogether pursued, it was impossible, notwithstanding
any delicacy that might be used, not to say something which
might be disagreeable to the feelings of an individual engaged
on such service. H could state that when his Right Hon. and
Gallant Faiend ( Sir H. Hardinge) had brought forward his
motion he had abstained from using many documents that bore
upon the conduct of the Hon. and Gallant officer, and he did
so from d feeling that he was not present to defend himself.
After a few words from Mr. H U ME, in explanation,
Sir S. CANNING was quite sure that when the proper oc-
casion came Hon. Members would not shrink from the discus-
sion. The discharge of a public duty was not to be set aside
upon any grounds such as had been expressed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
no person ever raised a question so entirely preposterous as
to deny the right of any Hon. Member to state his opinion
freely upon any subject before the House. So far from that,
it was net only their right but their duty fully and freely to
discuss any matter in which the public interests were involved.
No question had been at all raised on that point. All admit-
ted the right—the question was as to the proper exercise of
that right. No one doubted that it was perfectly open to any
Hon. Member to dispute the policy of the Order in Council as
to the continuance of the British Legion in the service of the
Queen of Spain. He was also ready to admit the right to
speak of the conduct of the Legion, and of any officer either
in his public or individual capacity.
Colonel EVANS said that any irritability that bad been
evinced might arise from the fact that he had used ono or two
words which might have been misinterpreted. He had spoken
of calumny and asperity ; but he used those expressions in re-
ference to the eonduct cf the public press, which had received
countenance in that House, and he would take for granted that
nothing had occurred which was in any way unparliamentary.
Sir C. B. VERE was present at the debate in question,
and he could assure the Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite
that his situation and personal gallantry were fully considered,
and he did not think, on that occasion, that there had been
any tendency to throw any thing discreditable upon the cha-
racter of the Hon. and Gallant Officer.
Mr. HORS MAN thought that, on the occasion referred to,
expressions had been made use of calculated to produce sore-
ness. If he recollected rightly, something like the term
"hireling" had been made use of. With regard to the right
of discussion which had been asserted, it was a right which no
one denied : the only objection that could be was to the rain-
nor of the exercise of the right. During the absence of the
Hon. and Gallant Officer great alacrity had been shown to
bring forward questions affecting, his conduct ; but now that
the Gallant Officer was present the same alacrity did not exist,
and he was forced to give notice of his intention to bring for-
ward the subject himself.
Lord SANDON said that there were no grounds for the
charges which the Hon. Member had made. The same ur-
gency did not exist now as had existed last year, and the Hon.
Member could therefore draw no analogy from the circum-
stances of last year. As he (Lord Sandon) was on his legs
ho must beg to allude to an observation that had fallen from
the Hon. and Gallant Officer. He seemed inclined to cha-
racterise as the supporters of Don Carlos all those at his (Lord
Sandon's) side of the House who felt disposed to question the
policy of the present Government respecting Spain, but be-
fore the Gallant Officer did that, be would ask him was lie
prepared to take upon his own shoulders every cruelty that had
been committed at the other side ? When the Hon. and
Gallant Officer was prepared to do that, he might then talk
of the supporters of Don Carlos.
Sir H. VIVIAN was present when the Right lion. and
Gallant Officer ( Sir H. Hardinge) brought forward his motion
respecting Spain, and he was ready to say that both that Gal-
lant Officer and the seconder of the motion had treated the
question in that manner which his Hon. and Gallant Friend
had a right to expect. He regretted that many severe ex-
pressions had been made use of concerning the troops under
the command of his Hon. and Gallant Friend.
Mr. BORTHWICK trusted to be present when the Hon.
and Gallant Officer would bring forward his motion, for it had
now assumed a proper form. He did not now mean to discuss
what had been said about Don Carloss. He had been stig-
matized as a blood-thirsty tyrant, but that at least was a
reason why they should not allow one whom they so stig-
matized to outstrip them in the race of humanity.--[Here
Lord Palmerston entered the House.] As the Noble Lord
had made his appearance he would state that, had he been
earlier present, he would have had the honour of enlarging
more at length upon the subject which lie had brought

forward.
Lord PAL ME RST ON regretted he had been detained by
business elsewhere. He would have been in the House
earlier; but the notice of the Hon. Member for Evesham was
the 13th on the Paper, and he did not anticipate it would have
come on so soon. He regretted that his absence should have
in any way shortened the speech of the Hon. Member.
The motion was then put and agreed to.
Mr. BROT HE RTON rose for the purpose of moving for
a Return connected with the Collegiate Church of Man-
chester, when—
Lord J. RUSSELL requested the Hon. Member to post-
pone the motion until after the recess. It was then his inten-
tion to move for a Committee to consider Church Leases, and
the whole question would then be discussed. He trusted the
Hon. Member would, under those circumstances, consent to
postpone the motion.
Mr. BROTHERTON expressed his acquiescence in the
suggestion.

THE SUNDERLAND UNION.
Mr. A. WHITE rose to call the attention of the House to
the administration of the Poor-law Amendment Act in the
district of the Sunderland Union. It would be in the recol-
lection of the House that a short time ago a discussion arose I
on a motion for the appointment of a Committee to inquire
into the distribution of relief under the New Poor-law Act.
On that occasion the Hon. Member for North Durham made
observations of a character which had given great cause of dis-
satisfaction. In the report of his observations which appeared
in the Morning Chronicle the Hon. Member was represented
to have said—
The SPEAKER called the Hon. Member to order. Ho
should not say what the Hon. Member was stated to have
said, but what the Hon. Member had stated.
Mr. WHITE was glad he had been set right. What the
lion Member had stated was to the effect that in Sunderland
alone, immediately after the Act coming into operation, pa- '
rochial relief was suddenly withdrawn from two hundred un-
happy children, and dark rumours went abroad of the myste-
rious disappearance of many of those innocents, and though
no cases of child murder had actually been proved, yet too
much reason existed for supposing that many of them had
been abandoned by their mothers to starvation. As Chair-
man of the Board of Guardians, of that Union, he (Mr-
White) felt it his duty to assure the House that his statement
was not founded in fact. Statements of that kind going
abroad through the medium of the public press were calcu-
lated to have a most injurious effect on the public mind, and
it was not surprising that the riots took place. This state-
ment had produced a strong feeling of indignation at Sunder-
land. He felt bound to call on the Hon. Member for S iuth
Durham to (as we understood) state the authority on which
his statement rested, and he should conclude by moving for
the production of the correspondence which took place be-
tween the Board of Guardians at Sunderland and the Secre-
tary for the Home Department.
Mr. LA M BTON seconded the motion.
Mr. LIDDELI, said the observations he had made in the
speech in question were not directed against any individuals,
and least of all against the individuals composing the Board of
Guardians in Sunderland. What he referred to had taken
place so far back as the winter of 1834, two years before any
Commissioner had gone to Sunderland—before any Union was
incorporated—before any Board of Guardians was formed.
He felt called on to set himself right in the presence of many
who had heard what he had said on that occasion. In speaking
of the Poor Law Amendment Act lately applied to the Northern
counties, and with a very great difference of Opinion as to its
applicability. he ( Mr. Liddell) divided his observations under
two heads—first, with reference to the principle ; and secondly,
with respect to the practical operation of the Act. --( Hear,