The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-26 00:00:00

T 1,'2 N I,ON Di WEDNESDAY,
1 I

incapable of change, and that the result of experiment
should not de attended to. Bur. for his ( Lord M.'s) own
setiefaction, end in vindiestion t f his former conduct, he
would here st rte, that in the discussion of the second read-
ing of the Reform Bill, he stated—and be was then censured
for the statement—that, Chet measure, if I eased, would not
answer the extravagant art eipations that bad been enter-
tained of it by a large class of persons.a—(Hear, hear.)
lie stated that it would not prevent bribery and corruption.
He stated that in its results it trust disappoint many. He •
stated that he was perft et!), aware that the measure must
not stop there—( Hear, heer)—that it could not be final—
( Hear, hear)--but that it must lead to large ulterior con-
sequences.—( Hear, hear.) He must therefere say that he
agreed with a great deal of what had been stated by his
l\Lible Friend in presenting the petition. He (Lord M.)
objected to those measure, demanded in the petitions
nor because he regarded them as advances on the Reform
Bill—not because he thought they Would go further thin
that Bill but because those measures were bad and pernicious
in themselves. As frr the proceedings in the other 11 ruse,
he was not disposed at present to advert to them at any
length, though their Lordships had a perfect right to
advert to them whenever they considered them of sufficient
importance. As the motion for taking votes at elections
by the Ballot had been negatived by a large majority in
the other House. he thought that here they were not
bound to consider them. It.. did not agree in the alleged
efficacy of the Ballot; nor did he think the question was
advanced in the other House-by the late division, whatever
might te the state of feeling respecting it out of the House.
Some persons might think that the making the Ballot an
open question would advance it, and others might think
that it would retard it, of course their opinions on this
point would be influenced by their opinions being tither
favourable or opposed to the question. For himself, as
he had before sail that lie was not in favour of the Ballot,
but he did think that. the making it an open question tended
te advance it. The Noble Viscount proceeded as follows :
My Lords, I was glad to hear the Noble Earl express his
opinion as to the advice which has h. en given to the people
to arm.—( Hear, hear.) My Lords, giving that advice to
persons to arm in furtherance of political objects, and
twinging their free to bear upon the Legislature and the
Government, can be considered as nothing less in fact_
unless under a form considered legal, but which I do not
consider legal—can he deemed nothing short of an excite-
ment to rebellion.—(llear, hear.) It can be nothing
else, it can have no other meaning—( Hear, hear)—and
though the Noble Earl disclaims any participation in this
advice, I must observe, that the advice has been given by
persons for whom he professes the highest reap pct and re-
gard, in a respectable station of life, and from whom other
feelings and other recommendations might hire• been ex
pected.—( Hear, hear.) My Lords, the Noble and
Learned Lord remarked with great humour and liveliness
upon the state of the other House of Parliament, and the
narrow majorities which there take place. Why, my Lords,
I recollect the time when I had the honour and pleasure
of acting with •my Noble and Leerned Friend, when we
did not think it so great a celamity, to be in a narrow
majority—when .a majority of one upon the secor d reading
of the Reform Bill was thouebt a very good majority to go
on with. and I do not remember any such feeling of dis-
grace as that to. ohich my Noble and I earned Friend
adverts. My Lords, as to the situation of the Assembly
itself, Ido not see how it is to be he:ped. It is a contin-
gency that may occur, that parties should be so equally
divided. Whether it is advantageous.oFdisidvantageous
I do not precisely pretend to determine.—( A laugh ) We
must decide by majorities. It may, perhaps. be an
unsatisfactory mode of deciding—( Hear, hear)—but it is
forced upon us by the imperfections of human nature. No-
body thinks a majority always in the righ:—( Hear, hear)
or a minority always in the wrong.—( Hear, hear ) God
knows, I don't.—(Great laughter, caused by the huMour-
ous way in which the Noble Viscount spoke ) I was bred
up in minorities. lam sometimes in a minority myself;
therefore all my inclination is the other way, and I am
rather •of opinien that the minority is usually
in the right.—( Laughter, and hear.) I do not know,
boa ever, how these evils can be remedied—they seem the
natural evils of human nature. Ido not deny that there
are evils and cliflieulties in the state of the country, which
require serious consideration. The metters brought be-
fore us in this petition, and the feelings of the people, are
undoubted!), such as to demand the mist serious conside-
ration.—( Hear, hear.) But that I- consider alarming,
and the real cause of the present dangerous state of the
country, is the manner in which every man thinks himself
justified in pushing his own opinions sto an extreme.—
( Hear, hear ) lf, fer instance, a gentleman thinks we
have not done right about the currency—that we ought
to have more 11. notes, or to alter the standard of value—
then he thinks himself entitled, if the Legislature anti the
Government do trot immediately coincide with his views,
to call upon the people to rise in their strength—( Laugh-
ter)—and push everything to the utmost.—( Hear.) In the
same way with the Poor-law ; because we have passed
a law for the reformation of great and enormous
abuses—a law which, I hove no doubt, contributes as much
to the comfort of the poor, as it does to the general wel-
fare of the community—(lle m, hear)—this, forsooth,
justifies rebellion and resistance, and the utter dissolution
of the bonds of society.—( Hear, hear.) My Lords, it
is in fact pushing the doctrine of resistance, admitted to
be applicable only to extreme cases; to every comparatively
slight and unimportant case ; and, in the powerful lan
gunge of Mr. Burke, it is making the extreme medicine
of the Constitution its daily aliment.—( flear, hear.) My
Lords, there are no other points on which it is necessary
to make any observations. I only lament that my Noble
Friend opposite (Earl Stanhope), with his integrity and
his right feeling, should have again expressed himself in
such strong and Ikter language as to the New Poor law.
Lord 13RO UG H A Nl—My Lords, with regard to what I-
said as to the 13allot being made an open question, if the Noble
Vit.count's explanation ne true, nothing can be more ob-
. Yiuus and natural, than that every person being allowed to
vote as he pleased, it might be some parties' opinion that
this would not advance- • the • cause of the Ballot.
—( Viscount Mel' ourne—‘• That is not my opinion.") No ;
but what I commented upon was a very different tl.ing. I
understood that it had been represented by the.Govern-
raent elsewhere—not, that I ever read the debates-e-per-
lisps I ought to be ashamed for saying so—( A laugh)._
hut next to the pain of reading the repent of a debate- in
which I myself took a part, is the pain of rending a debate
in which I diet not: take a pert-4 Laughter)—but it was
stated to me that the Government -represented, in the
other [louse, that the object of making the Ballot tin open
question was to injure it. Now, as to the offensive ex-
p-eseions lam accused of having used—l meant no such
offence. Leettoinly used a common form of speech—
perhaps too carelessly employed—when a cause is sup-
ported, or pretended to be supported only to be in re; lily
retarded. I certainly spoke of that traitorous-personage
generally alluded to on such occasions. Then, my Lords,
I really em astonished to hear my Noble Friend speak of
my having been satisfied with the majority of one on the
second reading of the Bill ; for I remember having said,
on the following day, 44 Well, this majority means disSolu—
tion."—( A laugh.)
The Marquis of NORM A NBY said the Member of the
Government (Lord IlotNick)-who had used the expressions
which had been commented upon, respecting the Ballot
having been made an open question in order to injure it,
had distinctly stated that he spoke only-for himself.
Lord BROUGHAM remarked that none of the Noble
Lord's colleagues had contradicted the declaration he had
made at first.

Earl STAN HOP E said in the reign of Queen Anne,.
when the twelve Peers were created at once, it was gravely
considered whether they. should be allowed to take the
oaths; and it was held that the House could constitution-
ally prevent them taking the oaths.—( Lord Brougham—
" But nothing was done.") Beyond all doubt, however,
the Hawse could resolve that on a division the
names of certain Peers should not be counted, just as any
other persons, strangers, who might happen to be in the
House. With respect to the threatened creation of Peers et
the time of the Reform Bill, he had certainly seen a better
beginning, " Dear John Russell"— (a laugh)—and signed

Brougham,',' in which something- was said about the
King having granted the then Ministry a cat te blanche to
create any number of Peers.—( Hear, bear.)
Lord. B 11015 G HA M explained. He did not deny the
fact of the power having been given, but that Elrl Grey
had threatened that House with the use of Hear. )
Earl STAN HO P E—Of course the power was intended
to be employed, if the necessity for it had not been prevent-
ed by a very unconstitutional circular—( Lord Brougham,
" No, not a circular")—or letter from the late King's
Private Secretary, ecsiring the absence of many of the
Opposition Peers, who acceJed to that as the least dan-
gerous alternative.--,-( Hear, hear.) The Noble and
Learned Lord had said that the country was in no danger
of revolution. Ile ( Earl Stanhope) fervently trusted that
this might prove true, but he feared. that ills Noble and
Learned Lord spoke in utter ignorance of the real feelings
and situation of the people. The cause of the continual ex-
citement in which the people were plunged: and of the
great influence of agitators, was the state of poverty and
the want of employment which pervaded such large masses.
—( Hear, hear.) As to his having opposed the prayer of
the petition which he had presented on this occasion, he
had candidly told the members of the National Convention
who had desired him to present it, that he could not con.
scientiously support its principles.—(Hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he must express
his opinion of the extreme inexpediency of making int.,m-
perate harangues upon the presentations of petitions.—
( Hear)—and he was surprised that his Noble Friend—
( Earl Stanhope) should have taken this injudicious course,
instead of coming forward and - proposing such measures
as he deemed advantageous for the public interests, whether
it were for repealing Peel's Currency Bill, or altering the
New Poor-law Act, and if the House would not attend
to these subjects, it would then be time enough to make
such harang Earl
Hear, hear.) After what my Noble
Friend the Noble earl has said (continued the Noble
Duke) respecting the arming of the people, I hope we
shall have him on our side in the event of any of these
armings actually taking place.—(" No, no," from Earl
Stanhope.) Of this, at least, my Noble Friend may be
assured (said the Noble Duke, with a firm and animated
voice)—that it will not be doubtful no which side I shall he
found—( Hear, hear)—that I shall be found on the side of
good order, and of the law—( Hear).—and I was in hopes
that my Noble Friend would have been reaiy to support rno.
Ha would earnestly urge his Noble Friend to bring for.
ward some measures on these subjects, as the more manly
and straightforward course, and one more likely to produce
satisfaction, than the course he was at present pursuing.
He had listened with satisfaction to the sentiments which
had been expressed by the Noble Viscount, both with re.
gard to the petition which the Noble Earl bad presented,
and to the speech by which he bad introduced that peti.
tion. He quite concurred with the Noble Viscount in his
objections to the extension of the Suffrage, and on the
same ground—namely, its extreme incorsistency with the
general interests of the country. He agreed in all that
had fallen from the Noble Viscount relative to the Ballot,
and having entertained those objections to that obnoxious,
and he must call it un- English measure, he could not but
regret that he should think it was proper that it should be
considered an open question. With regard to what bad
been said on open questions in another place, he could say
that it had been his misfortune to be in office when there
were what were called open questions, and he never could
consider an open question as anything but a symptom of
1 -weakness on the vart•of the -Government ; es showing that

those who were :Acting together in e..rrying on the service
of their Sovereign did not agree among themselves, or
with their suplorters ; and instead of being thankful
fir the establishment of open questions, and considering it
a satisfactory eircumqance that such uas thecae, be con.
sidered it was a fact most likely to rrive disastrous to the
• Government, and eventually to the country. Under these
circumstances, a:though be was quite satisfied with the
op'nion expressed by the Noble Viscount, he lamented sin-
cerely that he should have been induced to consider this
vestion as an open question..
Earl STANHOI'E had been challenged by his Noble
and Illustrious Blend to propose measures in that house.
He would in return relate to him a military anecdote.
One of the Generals of Louis XIV. returning to Versailles
after an unsuccessful campaign was taunted by Louis XIV,
who said to him, I expected you would have taken the
General of the opposing army prisoner, to which he re.
plied, Sire, had I attempted it 1 have very little doubt he
would have taken me.—( A laugh. )—Such w ►s his answer.
His reason for not proposing measures was, that be had no
chance of success. He hoped the Noble Duke would
permit him to adopt his own tieties. and wait for better
times and an accession of strength. But if a Bill should
63 brought up from the other House for .continuing the
power of the dictators. he should take the sense of the
House on the subject if .he stool alone. He had voted in
a minority of three, and on such an occasion he should not
he ashamed of voting in a minority of one. Truth was not
to be judged of, I,ke armies, by numbers.
The Bills on the table were forward, -d a stage; and on
the motion of the Ertl of SHAFT ES BUR Y, the House
adjourned, to Thursday next, at a Quarter past Eight
o'Clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

(17.-em the Potts and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
MONDAY, JUNE 24, 1839.
PUBLIC EDUCATION.
Supply—k Committee:
Motion made and Question put, " That it. is the npinion of
this Committee, that a sum, not exceeding 39,00 M , be granted
to her Alajesty, f-r Public Ed. cation is Great Br:taiii, in the
year 189:"—The Committee divided:

FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE

Commission by the Lord Lieutenant of Buckinghamshire.
Bucks Mditia—The Right Hon Robert John Lord Caring_
ton to be Colonel, vice his. Grace Richard Duke of Buckingham
and Chandos, K. G. , deceased, March 7.
Commiisions by the Lord Lieutenant of Essex.
West Essex Regular Militia—Q. Dick, Esq., to be Cap-
tain, vice Judd, June 15. _

Elst Essex Regular Johnson, Esq., to be Cal
fain, vice Jessopp, June 13.
Commission by the Lord Lieutenant of Wiltshire.

Wilts Regular Militia—%V. A. Heitheote, Esq., to be Cap-
tain, vice Poore, deceased, June 18.
Commission by the Lord Lieutenant of Stafford,hire
- •

The Queen's Own Regiment of Staffordshire Yeomanry
Cavalry—W. L. Gilpin, Gent., to be Cornet, vice Chawner,
promoted, June 19.

BANKRUPTS.

HENRY NELSON, warehou,eman, Watling-street, 'to
surrender July 9, at one, and Aug. 6, at eleven, at the Court
of Bankruptcy. Turquand, official assignee, Copthall-build-
ing4; Smith and Weir, Coopers'-hall, Basinghali-street.
SIMEON JOHN BOILEAU, dairyman, Grcville-street,
Brunswick-square, July 8, at two, and Aug. 6, at one, at the
Court of Bankruptcy. Graham, official assignee, Basinghall-
street : Pulling. Temple.

GEORGE CHARLES DANE, print-seller, Regent-street,
ly 3, and AuguAt 6, at twelve, at tne Court. of Bankruptcy.
Lackin2ton, official assignee, Coleman-street-buildings; Jen-
kinstin, Walbrook.

JOHN RIC H A RDSON GOR ST, harness-manufacturer,
Liverprtol, July 6, and August 6. at one, at the Clarendon-rooms,
Liverpool. Taylor, Sharpe,- Field and Jackson, Bedford-
row, London • Laee3, Clay, and Myers, Liverpool.
ROBERT 13LYTII, common-brewer, Lynn Regis, Nor-
folk, July 2 and August 6, at twelve, at the Duke's Head
Inn, Lynn Regis. Clarke and Metlealf, Lincoln's Inn- fields ;
Beckwith, Dye, and Kitson, Worwieh

SALOMON SALOMONSO.N. merchant, Threedneedle-
street, July 4, .at one, and August 6, at eleven, at the Court. of
Bankruptcy. Green, official assignee, Aldermanbury; Phipps,
Weavers'-hall, Basinghall-street.
WILLIAM COLE, printer and publisher, Crane-comt,
Fleet-street, July 8, at one, and August 6, at eleven, at the
Court of Bankruptcy. Clark, official assignee, New Broad-
street-court ; Parker, St.. Paul's Church -yard.
PHILIP CLEMENT .NICOLLE, wine-merchant, South-
ampton, July 8, and August 6, at twelve, at the Dolphin Ho-
tel, Southampton. Walker, Southampton-street, Bloomsbury-
square, London; Deacon and Lou,g SouthaMpton.
THOMAS WILSON, hatters'- trimmings manufactiurr,
Manchester, Joy 6, and August 6, at three, at the Commis-
sioners' Rooms, Manchester. Chester, Staple Inn, London;
Chapman and Roberts, or Simpson, Manchester.
WILLI IM JONES, Newport, Monmouthshire, shop-
keeper, July 10, and Aug 6, at. ten, at the King's Head Inn,
New ort Hall, New Boswell-court, London ; Prothero and
Phillips, Newport.
NICHOLAS COLSTON, Brixham, Devonshire, draper,
July IS, and August 6, at twelve, at the Star Inn, Exeter.
Blat:e and Lewis, Essex-street, Strand, London ; Presswell
Totces.

DIVIDENDS
At the Court of Bankruptcy, Basinghall- street.
R. H. Franks, hatter, Red-cross-street, Barbican, July 18,
at. one—J. P. Hicks and C. E. Hicks, clothiers, Eastington,
Gloucestershire, July is, at half-past one—T. Brown, grocer,
Cheltenham, July 18, at eleven.
In the Country.
- .

J. May, draper, Newport, Isle of W%ight. July 10, at twelve,
at the Bugle Inn, Newport—J. M. Ainsworth, saddlers' iron-
monger, Birmingham, July 16, at twelve, at the New Royal
Hotel, Birminglum—J. Shynn, hotel-keeper, Liverpool, July
16, at two, at the Clarendon Rooms, Liverpool—W. Guest,
linen-manufacturer, Barnsley, Yorkshire, July 29, at one, at
the Town Hall, Sheffield—J., D., and J. Vollans, jun., wool-
len cloth-manufacturers, Leeds, July 30, at twelve, at the
Court-house, Leeds—J. Threlfall and W. Oliver, tailors, Man-
chester, July 18, at ,c!even, at the Commissioners' Rooms,
Manchester—H. Kilshaw, cotton-spinner, EdenAeld, Lanca-
shire, July 20. at ten, at the Commissioners' Rooms, Man-
chester--. 0. V. Harvey, mercer, Penzance, Cornwall, July 23,
at one, at the office of Mr. E. _Millett, Penzance—E. Davies,
currier, T!aryg,wndwn, Llanahangel-ystrad, Cardiganshire,
July 31, at eleven, at the Black Lion Inn. Cardigan—N. Ca-
venagh, W. Browne, and H. Browne, haulers, Bath, July 17,
at one, at the York House; Baih—T. Chapman, J. Brown,
and J. T. Brwsn, coach-masters, Birmingham, July 16, at
one, at the New Royal Hotel, Birmingham—S. Wright,
money-scrivener, Knutsford, Cheshire, July la, at eleven, at
the Commissioners' Rooms, Manchester—J. Wood, laceman,
Manchester, July 18, at twelve, at the Commissioners' Rooms,
Manchester.