The Sun.
London, England, 1806-06-03 00:00:00

PROPERTY OR 114COMt DUTY.

Lord HENRY PETTY gave notice,' that before
the close of the present SesSion he. should tupVe for
leave to bring in a Bill to allow exemptions from the
Property Tax to persons in certain cases •having;low,
incomes and. large families. • It.would be- recolleaed
that when the Property Tax Bill was under diS-.
cussion, he had stated his opinion, that these ex-
ethptions.could not be introduced into.the Bill in the.
same fdrth as in former 'Bills without materially.
-affeaing the produce of theTai, and in this the House
had concurred with him. It was desirable, however,
that in the cases to which be alluded, every reason-
able relief should be grahted, and he had the satiS-
faaion to State; that the Bill, which.it was his inten-
tion to' bring forward in the course of the present.
Session, would give the exemptions without being
liable to any of the objeaions .that applied to the-
former mode. He took that opportunity too of
stating, that in consideration of the suggestions that
:had been thrown out by Gentlemen, he meant to
impose the duty on Private Brewing as an assessed
tax, leaving out the Excise clause altogether, which
he had introduced only
-for the purpose of giving an
opportunity- to the party, in cases wherein .it appear-
ed t 6 him that such opportunity would be desirable.
un

Mr. PERCEVAL wlshgd to know, how the Noble
Lord proposed to ascertain who are, and who are
not, Private Brewers ?

Lord HENRY PETTY replied, that persons
charged to the assessed taxes were to be required to
give in a statement in their returns, whether or not
they were Private Brewers.
COMMITTEE 1:314. MUTINY BILL.

. .
Mr, Secretary WINDHAM moved the Order:of the
Day for the House to go into a Committee on the
Mutiny Bill. . . , .
-The House having resolved into the Committee;
and the question for tilling up the blank, in the form
of-the oath to be .taketi by the Soldiers hereafter' to
be enlisted, with the numberseven, .

Lord CASTLEREAGH thought that the whole 1
of the clauserelating to the limits of service should
be left out. He took that opportunity of stating his
objeetions- to the clause, which the more he consider-
ed the more forcibly convinced hint of , the para-
mount duty of pressing his obje6tions upon the at-
tention of the House. He should, hoWever, avoid
going into the detail arising out of the question, and
confine himself in that instance to the prominent
features of the measure.. Every Member must be
mare of the painful difficulties, and the embarrass,
ing situation in which the House was placed, by be-
ing calledon to decide on 'a detailed military question,
with little notice, and little detailed information.—
The Right Hon. Gentleman had been four months
in office belige he had made up his mind upon the
Subjed ; and yet the'House was-now to be called on
to decide finally upon it in three or four days, with.-
out even the advantage of such 'lights as the Right
Hon. Gentlemen Opposite poisessed.. This was
neither creditable to the pioceedings of that House,
nor to His Majesty's Ministers. He considered the
present measure as a more serious, distind, and:ex-
tensire infra6tion and infringement of the preroga-
tives of the Crown than had ever been submitted
to Parliament, and that too without being warranted'
by necessity, for the Gentlemen Who brought it for-
ward
admitted that there was no immediate neces-
sity calling for the measure. According .to the ,prac-
tice of Parliament, the estate of the 'CrOWn, the
right of mercy, or the exercise of any other. inde-
pendent function of the Royal Prerogative, was in
no case touched by that House without a direa ,
communication on the part of the Crown. This
would be the first instance of. Parliament interfering
with the Royal Prerogative in such a way, for he
would shew, how the prerogative of the sword could
be distinguished from that of mercy. The distnic-
Aron of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning), be-
'tween the. Army of the CroWn- and that of Parlia-
ment, was just, though misunderstoodby the Secre-
tary of State. The Militia and Army of Reserve were
raised by. Parliament in aid of the Army of the'
CroWn, and on conditions that it ne‘ler could think
of apply*, to the Regular Army. ThiS-wai.ikairst
instance. of a Minister of the 'Crown recommend
ing such measure ; a proposal of the' same de;
kription had at one time proceeded 'from another
quarter, Which he should notice before he sat down.
if this Bill should pass, the CroWn, which in his
apprehension at present possessed the. right of raising
men for limited or unlimited service, without any re-
striaion,would be precluded from raising men on any
other terms than those Unposed by this Clause for seven
years, either for temporary purposes at home, or for
local service in our Colcinies. The measure would
thus, without entering into the question whether it
was wise or not, have the effat of narrowing the
prerogative of the Crown, and that without any .ne-
cessity or any security that it would produce the
advantages expeCled from it. Another objeetion he
felt, arnoe Oct of the manner in which this measure
had been brought forward. He 'thought that any
legislative interference on this subject was unwise.
The Only instance in which such a proposal had been
made before, had been brought, not by a Minister
of the Crown, but by a Member of that House, not
in the shape of a clause in a Mutiny Bill, but as a
separate Bill. This proposal had been Subrnitted to
that House in 1769, by a respe6table Gentleman,
Mr. I'. Pitt, from a jealousy of a standing ArMy,
with a view to diminish its, numbers, whereas,.th:

ptesent measure 'was broqht forFard with a
.0.-icrease;the ArMy. The Noble Lor-d -here read.
;•,t;-extra&from Mr. Hatsas lii)ok, to show that to
attempt,to carry 'u measure: by tacking` it to a
' lliii
;.-;.ipply was highly -irregular, stud a breach:of that
anode of proceedieg that was prglised both
:I-louses. He admitted that it was desirable to have
a larger Army, but he denied that this measure
would be effectual to that end. It was, not, however;
for want of, a disposeahle fOrCe, that no &eater Three
had beet detaphed last campaign to the: Cunti-
nett. . In addition to the twenty-five thousand men •
a&uaily sent, forty thousand were ready, if it had been ;
'thought wise to send them Never was a more roman- N
tic plan of recruiting an. Army thaathis,which began,
by dismembering it. - If he had beep the dtithor of
such a measure, it would have been considered an
instance of the charaileristie imputed to the COfintry:
to which .he had the honour to. belong. -If the Plan
were even to be successful to the greatest extent ex-
Peaed from it, the Country would be in a worse situa-
tion as to the Army than at present. The Noble
Lord, here sheaved, that therecruiting for limited set.--
vice had not produced as many men in the American.
' 'War as• had, been raised in the late War for
The limited 'service was no inducement to men. In
'1799 the -Militia-consisted of 80,000 men, and Par-.
liattent allowed 46,000 to enlist into the Line for five
yearS, or &ring the war, and for service confined to
Europe, and only 26,000 volunteered. In 180.5
the .Militia consisted of 70,00; acid Parliament' al-
: leWed 14,000 to enlist for life into the Line; hilt the
Colonels were alloWed to. set apart one-half of their
Regirfients, 'so that the recruiting aeted only upon
35,000, and yet nearly i 1,000 men had enliSted.
Marquis Cornwallis recommended; in 1799,t0 enlist'
the men from the Irish Militia for life.;:and the whole
9000, except ?no, took the bounty of 12 guineas tbr
life service rather. than to guineas- for limited ser-
•vice. The Noble Lord- then argued at great length,
and with ability, that this measure would have a
very serious et e& on the discipline'.of the Aripy.
The, Noble Lord then proceeded, by n variety
of ingenious Caletlations, founded upon the re-
turns respecting the amount and supply of the seven
battalions of Guards, to shew that each man; after
twenty-one years, would have cost the country 3421.
He also shelved, than at the en& of
.seven years 'the
number to be discharged would be one-eleventh part
of the gross force; at the end of fourteen years
1-224 part of it; and at the end ofWenty-one years
1-108th part of it, which proportion on at assumed
Army of 250,000 men, would leasie at the end of
fourteen, years 30,000 to be provided for ; and 'if .
..one-half were to be supposed to re-enlist, there
would, be 15,000 men to be raised •to supply -the
deficiency created' by the Bill, in addition to the
. ordinary casualties of thelirmy.- The Noble Lord
then went into a variety of other caleulations
to prove the waste of the public money :that
would be the consequence of the ' measure, the
result of which was, that after twenty-one years
the increased expencewonld be annually for bounties
380,0001. 5 additional sixpences 162,0001. ; pension
'after 14 years service '792;0001. ; pension aftei 21
years service 684,0001:; maklog a total of 2,0 1 8,0001.
additional annual expence which ,votild be created
,by this measure, • independent of ;any additional
-: pay that 'might be in contemplation for the Officers
of the Army. The plan of the Right Hon. Gen-
tlernan too would deprive the country. of the pos:-
sibility of any reduCtion. in the expellee during
Peace. The Noble Lord, admitting The AclicaCy of
touching upon the topic, insisted that on every ground
Of justice the seamen would have a claim upon Par-
liament for a similar provision, if this should be
granted to, the ArMy, which would make the annual
expencc three milllons additional, or one-tenth of the
present naval and military expenditure of the country.
They were submitting to ten millions of a Property
Tax to relieve posterity from the burthen of half a
million, which would be the interest of it if that sum
were borrowed ; and he therefore called upon the
Commitlge to pause, before they should agree to a
measure that would entail an annual expence of three
millions upon their posterity. The Noble Lord con-
eluded an able speech of two hours length by a re=
capitulation of the various points .npou which he had
principally dwelt. .
•

Jr. GRATTAN thought the Noble Lord might
have been more moderate in his strictures on this
plan,- When some plan was confessedly necessary,
and neither the Noble Lord himself, nor any of his
associate; had any plan to offer. Ile condemned the
manner in*hich the Noble Lord argued, that. this
measure would be inefficient-in procuring tnen,while
it would create charges that would be oppressive to
the Country. Every one must see that the charges'
could be incurred only in proportion as men were
obtained. In the 'American War the limitation of.
service had been tried with elle& The Noble Lord
trust have forgotten that the Army Reserve and
the Additional Force A&, measures of the Admi-
nistration of.which he Was a tnember,were calculated
on the same principle. If it was as the Nroble Lord
contended, that 'the soldier naturally preferred enlist-
ing for life, then these Mts were unnecessary, and
instead of an additional:bounty to the men, there.
. ought to have been a drawback to the Nation (a
laugh). - Btlt it was- • irripOsSl4l6, that ' any man
could prefer an engagement for
_life to an engage-
ment for a term of years. Froth the Inquiries made
by the Noble Lord, and the inforniation he had cpl-
leiSted, it appeared that:a man of 40 may live 22
years. Was it possible, then, that a min of that age
should set no value upon so many, years. fitter for
the quiet
,occupations of private life than for the
'naive duties of a military station. The Noble Lord
did not recommend the revival of the ballot ; he did
not recommend a requisition,. for the people of this
'free Country could not bear it; he did not recom-
mend the enforcement of the Additional Force Act ;
he did not recommend an increase of bounty in pro-
portion to the relatanee to enter, on. the present
terms. The Noble Lord then would recommend
unlimited bounty, which was a premium 'on deier-
tion, and" unlimited service, which was a penalty.
As to the disposition to entering for life being. as
great as the disposition to enter for a term of years,he
would ask, whether afelon having a leaSe of his life
. for its natural term would exchange it for a lease
for seven years, and whether a person subje& to a.
penalty for life would readily commute it for a pe-
nalty tbr 7 years; The answer was most clearly given
by the calculation of the Insurance ,Office, that a
'man.of 40 was likely to:-live 22 years. When the,
limited service of the Army of Reserve.and the 'Adr
ditioual Force was supposed to attrsa men by, dupe-

„riot; a'ad when an audittoniti bouety- of
six guineas was given for general service, theprin-
ciple of the present measure was recognised: The
force of the attraction was aci‘nowledge.l . when it
wins contended that •the advantages to tie given to
the new soldiers would excite a mutiny it; the exist-
, ing Arm; and in the 'Navy. ';‘ yet when measures at
the same nature bad .been carried into et-Ted in tbr-
mer instances no mutiny had been' excited, no dis-
content had arisen. • The condition of the seamen
and the sokliers had.been much improved .since then
times heath:de(' to and vas it to be supposed that
they wouldnow be discontented with so little cause,
;when they had remained. quiet under 6o much great-
er prOvocation ? Thus much in eSv'ver to the Noble
Lord's arguments. of expence and noneciperatione--
When the soldier. obtained benefits, with 4revereiOu-
ary interest. in the liberties of his Country, was it to
:be sapnosed he received a consideratiynealcialated.to
damp his zeal ? When he received benetits, the-ad-
vantage of which was great, though the cost 'bad
been exaggerated by the Noble Lord, , and when at
the expiration of seven years he was to reiorti to 111.4
aris etfocis, was it to be supposed, that 'all the mo-
tives by which all men were stimulated to every thing
great and good, would make him good tar nothing I
If the Spartans had to engage the 'Persians without
the impulse-of any consideration of this kind, if they
were not to contend. pro al is et focis-,. they would
probably have fled ; but they halthem, and they—
fell. Ifthese interests were;, notallowed to• operate,
we slinuld employ Mamelokese,or other. externs,
men•who could not be expected w have any regard
. for the CoUntry. 71:11e :Place Bill did not exclude-
from Par-bat-dent men,holding, military commissions
under the crown; because the Legislature consider-
ed that OtlierS. had an interest 'in the
liberties of th?., Country , it was, this interest that,
enabled them to inspire, their.. men with a vigour
that was abk4utely irresistible:. It was not be6insta
• we were stronger men, or because we had better op
portunities of acquiring a knowledge of war, 'hat
our Armies always came off NVnth S() Much glory i•
but because the Commander was not aduat;xl by
an 'mechanical prieciple of:discipline; but by a spi-
'Tit of liberality Which enabled him to animate and
fire his battalions with an ardour which made their'
absolutely invincible. To. extend that ardour, with
the interest that created it, from the Officers to the
Soldiers, was •,he Objea of his Right Hon.. Frienci'S,
Plan., 'The Objea el the, Noble Lord was to con-
firm the present exCluSiOn of the Soldier, and to ex.-
tend it to the Officer.. The RaLTIZIAS would not ad-
mit their 6th ClasS to Soldiers,' because they had
no property to give them an interest in the prospte-
rity of tlie State. Noble Lord svould not deny
that the ffornans, were.amOng the first examples stir
ppint of military,shill, But the Romans.
ceased to• connea the-Citizen and the Soldier, when,
tr Pretbrian Bands were inlisted for iii years,' and
th remaindet, Of the Army -fur 20, the Roman St&
diers ceased td formidable. to thesEnerny, and
were terrible only to' the State' and to the People,—
The reason Carthage was unsuccessful in her
Contest with_Roine was, that she depended on Sol-
diers who bad.no interest in her indepentlenee
did not suppose the principle he coedcinnedlece4
be by any one carried to such an extreme as to
amount to 'a wish togiVe this Country an Army of
- Substitutes';' but the introduaion of the principle
in'any way would. tend to render the Army worse
for the Conatry; and less capable of contending
tc tnerily. France had the advantage over
us in nurribers, and in military experience ; it was
composed of the flifWer of the French People ; and
the Army we Would oppbse to it ought to be cool-
, posed of therflaiWer-of our's. It was not by supe-
riority Of nunibth, not by superiority Of discipline,
not by superiority of physical. strength, that we,
conquered-them, but by the superiority of the peo-
ple, by:their Consciousness of a superior existence,
by an invincible public mind, arising from the high
station on which we stood—the exaltedline along
which we niareiteda proud, eminence, in whith.
no Gaul, no -German, no King 'of Prussia, could
place its, but in which every one of us was placed
by ,the new Constitution of England. This '.ed- hint
to the subordinate plan of the training en masse. A
people so trained, though not less capable of being
opposed - in' battle- to a 'regular discipl+ined 'force,
would:: empower -able Officers to take advantages
Which Would give the result of vi&ory even toe serieja
of defeats:, This was the course that had been so
successful in America. 'lt Was that so successfully
pursued by -Fabius in the Sabine Hills, and, that ',re-
stomd victory to Rome after the annihilation of four
Consular Armies. France was a country not.occupied
by inditkrions pursuits, not by commerce, not by
-not by political discussions. Hence an eternal
danger was to be apprehended :front-them, and art
eternal and inexhaustible resource was to be provid6d
against that danger. - The general training afforded
tharresource. The People'of this Country, at;itnati!.d
by the spirit which was the• Consequence of liberty,
and disciplined by the proposed training, would_ nit
yield.to any invading fbrce; and if -ever they we're
overcome, their resistance would be such that there
would-be a pride in their failure. In answer to thoiS4
who contended that the Army ought to be regulated
entirely by the CrYwn,' and taught to,look up to
,it
alone, he urged'the Mischievous influence of such doc-
trine S.. In all wars, but particularly in all in which.
invasion was threatened, we had to contend for Oar
Constitution and Our safety. If we surrender oarC:otistitution,
w
pwould give up that which made our
-safety ,valuable,-and we would be lesS,animated with
a desire to fight for it. .It was therefore, 'that the
Mutiny A& that Martial' Law,' the payment of the.
Army, and the distivaions of service, were so
distin6tly and precisely regulated by Parliament ;
and if any Minister or any 'King transgressed 'what
Parliament laid down en these, sUbjects, he would,
be guilty of a breach of the law, and a violation of
the ,Constitution. Our ancestors were so jealous
'lest the doctrines laid down, by theeNoble..Lord
Should one day be brought forward,' that ..they
introduced into the preamble of the Mutiny Att
the' DeclaratiOn Of Rights against Standing Armies,
and in allowing that constitutional prohibition to,
be suspended, recorded, for, the preservation of
the constitutional principle, thedifficUlty with whipeh
.1 they had consented to that suspension, and the CAM
1 they' took of the'pnticiple, by enacting, that the
Mutiny Bill and-the payment of the Army should bet
- annual. Thus tho Ugh thu Army was a Standing Army,
it was yet a Parliamentary Army, and net less aCon,
•stitutidnal Army.
,Heece he col:tended,' that to leave
• the Army entirely to the tontroul of tbe, sing was
unconstitutional.' He voted for tins Plan became it

was a good o?ie, and. becatp:s something extras rtonary
was requisite. In 1803 an extraordinary nieasure
had been devised by as man of powerful understapd.
ing (the Additional Force 'Aft 'of- Mr. Pitt) ; but it
had
.failed. Whatever plan was adopteci,-it should
carry thepublic mind along with it in brder. to -be,
successful., That-there would be no feeling of jea-
lousy in Seamen or veteran Soldiers was dear, from
no,such jealousy having 'existed when there were
much stronger motives to- excite it. In the-Ameri-
can War these dangers were urged' With tenfold
force, to skew that the measures resorted twin that
Country• would be . unsuccessful. The same course
of:argument :was used-against the measures' adopted
by. France in. the Revolutionary times. Yet it was
to her perseverance in these measures, in spite of all
opposition, that France owed her wonderful suc-
cesses. A Nation determined 'to sacrifice its life in
support of such principles may meet 'with .such a
thing as defeat, but it could see no such thing as
'danger.
The MASTER qf -the ROLLS Well knew and
greatly respeded the abilities of the Hon: Gentleman
Who spoke last, but he thought him mistaken in his
view of the Noble Lord's argument. The Hon.
Gentleman argued,' that if the measure did not,pro-
duce men it would not be attended with expellee
• now the obje&ion was that it wouldbe attended with
immense expence without producing any Men. The
Hon. Gentleman-commended the measure for merits
it did not possess ; for it did not go 'to give any new
civic benetits to the stibjea: The Hon. Gentleman also
dittered widely front what the Right Hon. Mover of
this measure thought the soldier ought to be. If the
Hon. Gentleman had heard the Rt Hon. Gentleman's
opening speech, he would have heard him say that
-the' character of the 'soldier aught to 'be distina frOm
every thing else. The Honourable GeOtleMan Con-
tended, that it ought to be united and blendid with
the character of the artizan. One general objection
to the trial of this experiment was, that we had no
experience to dire& us.* For there vas no example
olany country trying it in the same mariner to the
same extent, and under the same circumstances.—
The example of France was cited, but with 'an
admission, that there the principle Was . found in-
convenient as soon- as the American War broke
out, and departed 'from by a precise ordonnance,
that no man was to be discharged during: the war.
If an Aet of Parliament:could be violated With
as much levity here, as a royal ordonnance was
there, the consideration would not be so serious.
He was sure the Hon.olficer opposite, when besaid
the other night, that the Country would have.the be-
nefit of this nieasure ten years, before it would have
any of theill eifeCtS, did not mean that when the ill
effects were approaching the Bill may be repealed.
Before the public faith was.pledged, it might: to be
.considered whether it could be kept, rather than
lightly t 9 give occasion for eireullistanees in , which
the public faith and public safety would be at vari-
, -ance. As to the authority of the' Crown, the Mutiny
Act took no power from the King Which- bv ,the.
-Constitution he had, but came in aid of his authority
by fresh powers. Without the power of the Mutiny
Abel(log could-not keep the Army together, nor
govern it, in time of peace; and in many 'respeal,
there would be Much difficulty ingoventing it in time'
of war by the mere force of the prerogative.* out
this Bill went to take from the King a power which:
by the Constitution he was entitled to exercise, that
of enlisting men on any terms of service he should,
think proper. The idea that the same faith was not
to be placed in a pledge from the Crown and a
pledge from Parliament, was highly to be censured.
The faith of the Crorwo bad been always most scru-
pulously adhered to, though sometimes particular
Officers may have been guilty of misrepresentation.
or misconception. When a trial was made under the
prerogative, the antieot system would be more easily
reverted to, if the new one was found not tote sa-
tisfactory. In recent times several species of enlist-
ment had been tried by the authority of the Crown,
for life, for term of years, for service unlimited in
space, and service more or less-limited in that respect,
and all these without prescribing any onecause,so that
the general system 6f unlimited service was easily re-
verted to when it was found desirable. But now
when the Nation was told it was relieved from a
slavery, by the discontinuance of service for life, and
that a boon was given in the enlistnufnt for term of
years, how could .the ancient system be resorted to
with justice, or with safety, if at the end of 10 years
it should 'be necessary. The difficulty of re-engag-
ing men would be 'in proportion to the desire to have
the men. In the denial of the production of the opi-
pions of the General Officers, the House was left to
its own lights to judge of the question. He was, par-
ticularly at a. to conceive how the Right lion.
Gentleman's Plan retold be applied to the Colonies ?
This was always-the opinion .of military men or this
subjea, so- titr as he could coiled, The Right Hon.
Gentlenian ought to have shewn how the Plan could
be reconciled- with the service of the Colonies. The
Right Hon. Gentleman was. averse, to his Plm.beiog
called' theory; but it was the
theories, lilt- was to be considered without reference
to pradicability. What would the Right Honour-
able Gentleman have said to any of the Consti-
tution makers seven years .ago,* if they had
of a particular Constitution, saying, it is very
good as it stands, burl-know not whether it will be
applicable in pra&ice. When the exigency was put
to the men tat the end of their term pt- years, they
would not, understand any thing taut their dis-
charge. The- removal of the men whose term was
nearly expiring to the Second Battalions, when the
Jtegiment was ordered to the Colonies, was a' re-
newal of .the odious 'system of drafting ; it would
keep at borne the Veterans exchisively fit for Colonial
service, and send 'out raw Recruits to wham-the di-
rnate-tisss ptot,iesdarly 'fatal...This:was to-render our
best Soldiers an lndisposable force. The enormous
expeuce's.vas t.niost-4mportant- consideration when
our, financeriabOuseci'-set vitally under the burthen
, btoughOon by this ::,war. These burthens would'
make it.a question,; viiiethei an actual increase of our
disposable fOreewas desirable, at an expence likely. to
be naitaous~But When that ruinous expence was to
be inctured;f4 and uncertain increase, there
Wag-reason toAlesitate.iiideed. He wished the mea-:'

Mare to.be withdrawn for the present, and brought.
forwardirtia separate form, iwith the proper-lights to,
dire& theijaxdgruent-of the. House upon.* Iu its
Prtgent shape the-measure- would -countera& the
very good it was expeaed to prOduce: Suppose it
did not add to the number's produced by: the ordi-
,
, nary recruiting, and the vast ProportiOnofdischarges
"Ic 0010 Cciin&Vn SeMi years, hOvi would they be

[ilea /or f It

'afE p

ble
,t110:11

ice M,

provi w Rossi, prcuu iay be
-sVikieet to cover the drescharges, but that, or the
probability of it
:should be made to appear. The
discharges_ would operete when the . Meer were per-:
fed in discipline, It was true the Right, lion. Gen-
tleman calculated that the n.en would re-enlist ; but
•the Housecould not take the RigheHon.(3-entleman's
Word fig that, particularly when hegavethemen the.
option of so great a benefit. A less eumerons.&tiny in
perteEt state of diseipline was more desirable than a:
more numeroth olielessperfed. Vacua man thought
of ping iitto the Army 1 lid L....-not calculate the time., 4
-Seven years was besides almost as much as a matt's
life, with .respect to a removal from any ;occupation
-to which "the soldier might wish to return, after hay-
ing gratified his desire of military glory. When the-
period was near 'expiring, they .would think of
nothing -but home. He saw no' reason why a
mail may not be content to become a soldier for life
'as well as a carpenter, a blacktmith, tic. unless
the disgust for snah long service was created by the
'supporters Of the preseet system. The instance of
Genet:al Washington's Army, in the American-War,
afforded a Most suiking example. -tut the Ameri-
cans resorted to the means from necessity, whereas,
we were about to resort to it from design, and with-
out necessity. It vas only in 'cases of compulsory
service that a liMitation had been hitherto adopted;
-now. it was proposed -to extend it to Volunteers.—
He was at opinion, that after the removal of
the ballot, of the Army of Reserve Ad, and :the.
Additional Force Ad, and competition incurred by
them, the erdinery recruiting would, do great.
deal, and he,Wislied the experiment to be tried. It
was not so much the engagement for life that kept
men out of the Army, but the things that sxad Men
cenneded• with it. He wished the Right-. Hon..
Gentleman would consent to- withdraw the measure
for the present, for the purpose of trying what we
could do withont it_; if the Right Hon. Geetleman
would not consent to that, at least that it should be
sent back to the place froth :whence it carne, to be
brought forward again in a more digested- form. ,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL telt as much dis-
appointed that his Right Hortourable Friend had not
treated the suhjel in a constitutional point of view,
as his Right Hon.and Learned Friend had expressed
himself to be that the Hon. Gentleman who pre- -
ceded' him had'-not - adVerted to the calculations of
the Noble Lord. He had expeded from his Learned
Friend a check le those novel doCtrines' and dis-
tinetions Which bad been that night intriximed.—
The form in which the question was brought before
the House had -been objected to; it, was said like-,
wise that it onghtmet to be a subiet.c.t of Legislative
consideration, and -a Noble Lord hid asserted, that
the-discussion of it in Parliament, was attended with
danger to the Royal ,Prerogative, He would ask,the
House what they werediscnssing ? The Mutiny Bill.
In that Bill it was declared lawful for His Majesty
to make Articles of War for oneyear only. In that
Bill it was declared lawful. for His Majesty to este-
. blish;Cotirts Martial for one year only. In that Bill
the Bill of Rights was recited. Inthat Bill IN-as con-
tained a declaration limiting the power of I Ls Majesty
to quarter his soldiers on his Jawtial subjects. And
now in the Clause under discussion, the oath to be
taken by each recruit was , to :serve His Majesty for at :
least seven years, and yet it was 'asserted that 'the
prerogative of the Crown had been lift-ringed !
Uu-
less the Gentlemen opposite were prepared to say that
the doctrines bithertomaintaieed on this subjett
were erroneous,' it would -be impossible for them to
defend their. position. His Right Hon. and Learned
Friend had said, that 'if the treasure now Under
discussion had been carried into effed by tfbe Crown,
it might easily be undone; but that being 'aecont-
plished by Parliament,' it would be difficult for Par-
liament to retread their steps. -He had argued, that if
Parliament once prOihnigated the great advantages'
which • the soldier 'would derive from 'enlisting
for a limited time, no -man would in future be
found willing to enlist for an unlimited time. And
yet his Learned Friend had afterwards 'said, that the
consideration Oflintited or milimited.time would,were
the proposed measure; to-be adopted, be a-matter of
indifterence to the reerint. -It seemed; therefige; that
the recruit was thought to be so completely ignorant
that be could not judge on, this subject for hithself,
big that he must avail hiceself of the sentiments of.
Parliament, and of Parliament alone, for if his Majesty
expressed that opinion, the. House were told (not-.
withstanding that_ a Noble Lord had said, that the
Army might to. leek up to' his Majesty, and that the
soldiers should suck in .with their very existence the
convietion that the favour and countenance of the
Crown ought to be their chiefieward), that the Army
would not listen to his Majesty's representations.—
He wished much to know how the Gentlemen oppo.-
site could reconcile their declaration, that, in the first
place, it was ungracious to give this boon to the Army
through the meditnia of Parliament, and not through
that of •the Throne, wifh their other., declaration,
that it was in reality eo boon, as it would not
succeed Mauling. risen to enlist '? With re,
(Yard to the objet which 'had been started,-
t'that this measure shefild not have been contained in a
Clause of the Mutinyßill, but should have formed a
distind Aet of Parliament, he replied, that any novel-
ty in Military -ArinieS was usually included lathe
Mutiny Bill, and that this especially belonged to its,
character. if such an alteration were proposed in our
military system as the abolishing of capital punish-
ments, he would ask, ought that not to be contained
in theMetinyßill ?If the constitution of courts-mar-
tial were to undergo a reform, would not that be
prescribed in the Mutiny Bill.? Now as to the
policy of enlistment for a limited term considered
constitutionally, he differed entirely from those who
-contended that it was a dangerous innovation. , He
had always understood, that iii the.best times of the.
British history, jealousy had been ever excitedagainst
standing Armies, because the men had been enlisted
for an indefinite time. The preference given to the
Militia was grounded expressly on the circumstance
that they were enlisted for a limited time. For a while
they took, up the charader of the Soldier, afterwards
to resume that Of the citizen. Nor would this jea,;.
lousy of the one class of men, and preference of the:
ocher, be sin-prising,' when it..was considered iIQW.
inestimable were the privileges which a recruit re-
figiaed pe, entering, into the Army, and how ditfer-
ent must be the charader of the man who stir-.
rendered them for ever, and the man who sur-
rendered them only for a short period. He was
-unwilling
_intrude any authorities
,on the HouSe,
upon this sebjeet;. but he could ..taut refrain, from
quoting the opinion of that most respeetable and
venerablo Judge, whose Sentimeets yo , every sub-

:eCt, and mote particularly on those subjeias
duty conneeted.with the care 'of Our -free ConSfitu.
tion, were such aSentitled him to the most profound'
at:cation. Judge Blackstone, in thefirst.Volume of
_his Commentaries; says, that in a land of libo-ty it'
is extremely dangeruts•-to make a distinct Order of
the prOfes' shin Of arms.: in despotie country, where
the Gokernment was maintained by the influence of
le,ar, such a ,sPitein becoMes necessary; but in a
free State it is a warrantable obje& of jealousy. The
Laws and .ConstitUtin' of Great Britain, therefore,
.know nothing-ofh perpetual soldier. • No evirshould
be more carefully guarded against than that of ered-
ing a military .power uncenueCted with and inde-
pendent of the civil charaeter. . The enlistments of
sOtdiers'should be fora short and iiinited time; the
soldier ought to mix intimately with the people, and
for that purpose there might• to be no Camps, no bar-
racks, Sze." -tie wished to know 'what had happened
since this was written to induce a cltange in our, mi-
litary system ? Was i change neeessarybecanse the..
standing army had become three times as numerous'?
Was a change necessary beciusecamps and barrackS
had been so infinitely Multiplied? Was a change
necessary because a 'military despotism had spread '.
over all Europe, which had destroyed. the 'freedom
of modern States? 'Werethese the, reasons why we
should be'less attentive to • this important subje&,
and .wish to Tender the soldier a character completely
distinct and insulated from the citizen? In the con-
test in which they were engaged, it was' Of the ut-
. moat. consequence that the people should know the
value cif the blessings. for which they contended, and;
learn; that in fighting for the liberties of their coun-
try, they fought for their own.. It was in this cir-
cumstance that the difference must ever consist be-
tween our Own troops and those of the enemy. The
eorporeal, advantages of . the former, their superior
skill,' discipline, and power of sustaining fatigues
and privations, could be but small. In one. view they
indeed possessed the advantage ; the superiority of
the cause in
.which they were engaged. The Armies
of our Enemy fought only to eistend the glory and to
satiate the ambition of a:master, our Amies fought for
their own rights, and those of theirCountry..lf our
soldiers triumphed, it Was the triumph of justice and
freedom over' injustice and despotism. If 'they
fell, they fell the martyrs to patriotisin and
.the
love-of liberty. In another point olview.he
approved of the Plan of his Right Hon. Friend;
While, on the one hand it made the soldiers 'citizens,
on the other it made the, citizens s.oldiers. It had
been objected to this plan that the execution of it
would be attended With considerable expence. Ad-
verting to the talculatiens of his Learned Friend
(Mr. Perceval) the other evening, he contended that
they were formed on erroneous grounds, and that
his Learned Friend was not justified in saying- that
".the ,present Administration had economy in their
,
mouths, btu extravagance at their hearts."----The
calculations of his Learned Friend had for the me-
meta made him forget that. humanity and liberality,
which lie well knew belonged to his real charaeter.
The Gentlemen okOsite seemed to think that his
Majesty's Ministers had succeeded to a luxurious.
situation. He ()DIY wished.that some of them had
,
been present: (as it certainly was their duty tci be
present); at the discussions of the Property Tax;
that 'they had heard the various claims.. on the hu-
manity of his Noble Friend, first Or . tie small
annuitants, then for widows, afterwards for per-.
suns with large finuilies, Bcc, ; that they had wit-.
nessea the pain#ill situation or his Noble Friend,
.compelled by the imperious sense of his 'Milk duty
-to resist every demand however strongly urged ; that
'they had been in the House to see his Ncible Friend
I (to quote an expression ofcruel mockery) " reposing
upon a bed of roses !" For his part, heavy as -Le felt
that the burdens were ii;hich had been iMposed on
the community, he was convinced that the very'
poorest would cheerfolily part with a portion of their
scanty pittance,. to reward the val Our of these whO
fought todelend that, without which, property, and
life itself, were not worth the preservation. •
General NOPTON opposed the Clause, and con-
cluded, Iby moving, as an AMendment; that the
period of service after the seven years do extend to
the termination 'of any war in which we may be
then engaged, and for 'six, months after the conchs-
sion the Definitive Treaty. of Peace ; and where
the. Corps should happen to 'be -serving -in the East
Indies, for eighteen months after that period
Colonel CtiAUFURD slimed .the fallacy of Lord
CaStlereagh's statement' of the expence of the inea-
sure, by noticing, that his Lordship had on the one
hand 'taken the Army as it now stood, thereby giving
no credit to 'the plan for raising recruits ; while on
the other, he had in estimating the additional ex-
pellee, calculated it at 250,000 instead of I eO,OOO
snen, thereby making a ditlin'ence in their state-
- ments of 1,001,0001. the Noble' Lord's. being
1,938,0001. while, according to his (Colonel' Cran-
furd's) calculation, it only amounted to 637,0001.

Sir VILLIAK LEMON congratulated the House on
having heard. the most constitutional Speed) .from
the S;icitor7General,.which, in th:: course 'of thirty
or forty years, he had ever heard in thael-touse..--
The greatest grievance which could attend • a 'free
Country was a great Standing Army; If such must
be maintained, the molt constitutional way in which
it could, be established the better. On that ground
he approved of the Speech of the Solicitor-General.
Lord LOuvAINE asked,. if the present Army in
this Country was not a constitutional one ?
Lord DE BLAQUIERE supported the Clause. If
Gentlemen who opposed the measure thought it of
the supreme importance they pretended, why did
.they Objea to its being agitated in Parliament, rather
than that it should emanate, as he agreed it might,
from the authority of His Majesty ?
General STEWART, notwithstanding every thing
he had heard from the Irish Orator (Mr. Grattan)",
while at the same time, he did not urge his own mi-
litary skill to
.be such. as should give weight to his
opinion, disapproved of. the system.
. Mr' GRATTAN agreed that the Hon. Gentleman
had displayed , some proofs of Irish oratory; but be
would wish to See a little -Irish understanding. He
could not say that he felt much weight added' to the'
part which the Hon. Gentleman espoused from his
military opinion. •
G6I). STEWART replied, that he did not pretend
to,be an Irish Orator; but he. hoped he should al-
N,vays preserve the chara&er of an Irish Soldier.—
(Loimi cheers Of hear ! hear!)
. Mr.. BA ICES approved of the measure. If it
should fail of success (which he did not believe it

Worddythere was nothing more easy than to return
to the old pratlice.
Lord GARLIES; • after complimenting the Master
of the Rolts on his very argumentative Speech, de-
clarect:his main objection to the measure to proceed
fruT• the bad area it must have (m the Naval Ser-
vice.. -It might happen that .we had an Expedition
going out combined both of navAl, and military force,
and that one part-Might be -Mtn-led-to demand their
discharge, while the „Other' could • not. He would
ask how it could 'be possible to reconcile the one
to the idea of beingtboutid to continue in their sq.:
-vice While the other was diScbarged ?: • • • '
The. Question being 'then very generally 'call
for, the House divided—

For the Cluestion 206
-Agaitist 105

, 7 Majority
The blanks were then filled up, and flie
passed through the committee without any fartha
discussion. After which, the House having, re-
sumed, the 'Report Was'brought up, and ordered to
be taken into consideration to-morrow:

The Chelsea Pension. Regulation Bill was ordered'
to be taken into•eonsideration to-morrow:

The third reading of the Treating Mt was post-
.
poned to Monday, next.
The other Orders-of the bay being then disposed
•
of, the House adjourned at Two o'clock.