The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 30.
The Lord CHANCELLOR took his seat on tho Wool-
sack at Five o'Clock.

A message from the House of Commons brought up
the Devonport Small Debts Court Bill ; the Newark
Small Debts Courts Bill, with their Lordship's amend-
ments agreed to.
A message from the House of Commons, brought
up by Mr. O'Connell and others, prayed that their
Lordships would be pleased to convey to that House
a copy of the Report of the Select Committee of their
Lordships on the state of crime in Ireland.
Upon the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY
the Message was agreed to.

The Messengers were then called in, and the copy
of the Report was delivered to Mr. O'Connell at the bar.

Upon the motion of Lord FALKLAND the Turn-
pike Tolls Reduction Bill was read a second time.
The Bishop of GLOUCESTER presented a peti-
tion from the clergy of a place in Norfolk, against the
Church Discipline Bill.
Upon the motion of Lord WHARNCLIFFE, the
Courts for Counties Bill was read a second time.
INLAND WAREHOUSING BILL.

Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition from the
London Dock Company, against the Inland Warehous-
ing Bill. The petitioners had stated that they lail out
3,900,0001. upon warehouses under an Act of Parlia-
ment ; and that they would be deeply affected by the
present Bill passing into a law. They prayed that they
might be heard by Counsel at the bar against it,
and that it might not pass into a law. The
Noble and Learned Lord did not think it ne-
cessary to press the prayer that they should
be heard at the bar, as be did not think their Lord-
ships would feel themselves justified in passing the Bill
at this late period of the Session. The Noble and
Learned Lord also presented a petition to the same
effect from the Corporation of the East and West India
Dock Company.
Lord STRANGFORD presented a petition from
the Hull Dock Company to the same effect.
NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. _

Lord N said, that he had been asked
a question the other night relative to a person who had
presented a petition to both Houses of Parliament with
respect to the stone with which the Houses of
Parliament were to be built. A Commission
,consisting of Mr. Barry and others, was appointed on
the subject of the stone to be used, who made their report
before the petitions to which he had alluded were pre.
sented. The representations of the petitioner were
referred to Mr. Barry and other persons, and he now
laid on the table copies of correspondence between him-
self and those other persons upon the question.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY understood
there were details respecting the petitioner's stone which
he was not aware had been laid before those gentlemen.

In answer to a question from Lord CHARLE-
VILLE.

Lord DUNCANNON said he should make in-
quiries respecting the medical certificates of prisoners
who had been confined in gaols in Ireland.
CRIME IN IRELAND.

Lord BROUGHAM said that as some doubt
seemed to have been entertained as to whether he
should proceed next Tuesday or not with the motion of
which he had given notice, he thought it right now to state
that, upon considering the matter, and after having con-
versed with a numberof Noble Lords upon it, andfinding
that there were only about 40 or .50 pages of the Re-
efeurn, undoubtedly bhteaddlynobwrinngo
be osuhould
forward his motion on Tuesday next. He also wished
on this occasion to correct a mistake which seemed to
port to
hesitation whiinchstating his
t h t motion
have gone abroad. He was represented to have
said that if he did not bring forward this
motion this Session, he should do it next Ses-
iis was
hehad just
never a mode
adoptedsion. He had never made such a statement.
i
odeo
eitherfgarnis in
garnishing
thisthe Ho
noticense e
ber ek
which in
the other.

Lord LYNDHURST had never seen it done in
,his House.

nI H
ottOsoUfGrequAe:Altl haasdseenit in
elsewhere. this‘s
L
rimt House,he butdid
certainly 9 rdß
say was, that if he found the debate on Tuesday did not
go sufficiently into the subject, he would then give
their Lordships an opportunity of again discussing it
and supplying the defect next Session.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORM ANBY hoped the Noble
and Learned Lord would give notice of the resolution
he meant to propose. He understood the Noble and
Learned Lord's motion would relate to forty or fifty
pages of evidence ; but he (the Marquis of Normanby)
might perhaps feel it necessary to make some general
observations on the state of the country as arising out
of the proof brought before that Committee.—( Hear.)
His opinion was that any general discussion on the sub-
ject. at this period would be physically impossible. He
had commenced reading the evidence, but he made very
slow progress with it. The Committee had sat forty-
four days ; they examined witnesses for three or
four hours each day ; and there was therefore
very nearly 1,50 hours of work, so that if any Noble
Lord wished to make himself master of the evidence
before the discussion came on in that House, he would
not only have to employ every hour of every day, but
every hour of every night.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHANI believed the evidence might
be read in a week or ten days, from beginning to end;
If he were to give six months' notice of motion, nobody
would read the evidence till about six days before the
time at which the motion was to be brought on. He
would lay the Resolutions before their Lordships on or
before Friday 'next.
The Earl of WICKLOW said the more he read
the evidence the more he was convinced that it would
be impossible to do justice to the subject, and that
great injustice would be done to parties, if the Noble and
Learned Lord confined his motion to one portion of the
evidence only. It was a most extraordinary circumstance
that the draft of the Report which had been prepared
by a Noble Lord, and presented to the Committee,
should have been published in the papers. He thought
there had been a gross breach of confidence some-
where, and it was a matter which ought to be in-
vestigated and inquired into. It certainly was
most extraordinary that a private draft brought down
by a Noble Lord should have found its way into the
public papers.
Lord fl AT HE RTO N—And marked" private and
confidential."

vV
......
The Earl of NN, ICK.LO \V had first seen it published
in the Dublin Evening 111ai1, which professed to have
had it from some private friend. He thought great in-
justice would be done to the attempts of that Com-
mittee, who had laboured for many months in receiving
evidence, if the subject was to be partially gone into.
Lord BROUGHAM would be the last person to do
anything unjust in regard to the subject itself or to
the Noble Marquis, but he thought there was abundant
time for reading the evidence.
Lord MELBOURNE saidtheir Lordshipsknew how
very difficult it was tor any Member connected with
the Government to say anything that would have
the appearance of deprecating a putting off the motion.
Whether they were intended to inculpate his Noble
Friend, or whether they. were intended to make any
alteration in the course of justice, as was stated by the
Noble Lord opposite, he did think that there
was a decided objection to either of the courses, that
their Lordships had not had time to consider the evi-
dence upon which the charges must be grounded.
Lord BROUGHAM—The resolutions, my Lords,
which I will propose may be adopted by your Lordships
without either of you having ever read
one
word of
the evidence.—(A laugh.) I pledge myself to it.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was not sur-
prised at the course which was now proposed to be
taken. It was just the same. course as was taken with
respect to Canada. the Secret Committee had
been sitting for three or four months, and it was gene-
rally understood that they had agreed to a Report.
cAotnallml
jetit'eee .
n expected a Report from the
ts,
However, every one
it
was
at length decided that
only the evidence should be laid on the table. The
Noble and Learned Lord then gave notice that
he intended to call the attention of the House
fluslce—and his Noble Friend
his intention to call the at-
another part of the Report,
tbt oeenhtti
inhoden
haoidfmmt
ghi nnei
vs
Houseter antei
to ine
eot
too
and now up gets one Lord, and says, there is no time for

I considering the evidence—in that another Noble Lord
) joins him, and very likely the matter would end for the Ses-
sion. He would not say there was any manoeuvring
about this, but he must say that to him it had all the
appearance of it. It was the same course as was taken
upon the Canada question. Three months ago the
Noble Lords opposite, threatened to bring serious and
grave charges against the Noble Earl, but now the
Noble Earl complimented the Noble Viscount, and
the Noble Viscount returned the compliment, and
so the matter ended.: He dared to say that
the Noble Marquis opposite did not want to press
forward the discussion in any possible shape or way,
but surely Parliament would not come to a close with-
out saying whether the Noble Marquis was culpable or
not after so much preparation.
The Marquis of NORMANBy was not astonished
at what had fallen from the Noble Marquis, because
upon a former night he stated that he was quite ready
to come to a decision without ever having read a
word of the evidence. He had never shown any
desire to shrink from the discussion ; all he
wanted was, that their Lordships should read, study,
and digest the evidence before coming to any conclusion
respecting any part of his conduct. If their Lordships
had done so, the sooner the discussion came on the
better, though, at the same time, it must be remem-
bered that a great part of the evidence referred to his
conduct as far hack as two or three years ago.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY denied that
he had stated that he was prepared to come to a de-
cision without having read the evidence. It was
impossible for any one residing in Ireland to be without
a strong feeling on their minds respecting the manner in
which the Noble Marquis had compromised the Go-
vernment in that country.
Lord HATHERTON said his Noble and Gallant
Friend was so accustomed to diplomatic controversy
that he could see nothing but manoeuvre where every
one else saw plain sailing. Nothing could be more
straightforward than the course pursued by every indi-
vidual in the Committee. He (Lord H.) did every
thing in his power for the purpose of shortening the
inquiry, and the same disposition was manifested on the
other side to expedite the Report.
The conversation then dropped.
WARWICK GAOL.—TREATMENT OF THE

CHARTISTS.
The Earl of WARWICK said the House would re-
collect that a petition was some time ago presented by
the Noble and Learned Lord opposite from two persons,
named Lovett and Collins, complaining of their having
been severely and cruelly treated in Warwick Gaol.
Knowing the Magistrates, and the way in which that
gaol was conducted, he was satisfied at the time
that the statements were overcharged ; and as the
Noble and Learned Lord went into so many de-
tails, and animadverted on each sentence with so
much force, he (Lord W.) must take up some of their
Lordships' time in reading the answers to these allega-
tions in the Report which had been made by the visit-
ing Magistrates. The first examination was that of
Mr. John Williams, surgeon, who stated that the pri-
soners were inspected from time to time, and examined
by him in the usual course—that at the time they went
into the ward there was no person afflicted with the
itch, and when it was discovered the prisoner was re-
moved. After the Noble Earl had detailed the evidence
he had been furnished with, in a very inaudible voice,
he concluded by saying that they had suffered no par-
ticular inconveniences all the time the petitioners had
been there : that on the contrary, great civility had been
shown to them, and that the Noble and Learned Lord
had been imposed upon on this subject, as many hun-
dreds had been.

Lord BRO GH AM said that if he had been imposed
upon, the imposition had been practised upon him by
his Noble Friend who had just spoken. His Noble
Friend had confirmed the statement he had made.
The petitioners did not make any charge against the
Governor, against the turnkey, nor against the Magis-
trates, but they charged the system which treated per-
sons before their trial with the same conduct that
they were subjected to after trial.--(Hear.) He had
received a letter from a friend of his whom he should
trust an examination and cross-examination to with as
much confidence as any person he knew out of the law.
That gentleman had stated that he had had Lovett and
Collins with him for four hours when the petition was
drawn, and that to prevent any exaggerated statement
he had subjected them to the most rigid examination.
He further stated that from his personal knowledge of
Lovett no man could exceed him in integrity, and
therefore he certainly would trust him greatly in pre-
ference to one Samuel Smith, a felon convicted of theft,
who had been brought forward to contradict the state-
ment of the petitioners. It was said that Smith had
only been convicted of stealing a spade. Why he (the
Noble and Learned Lord) called a spade a spade, just
as he called a thief a thief.—(Laughter.) But it was ad-
mitted that they were told they must have a county
crop—meaning that their hair was to be cut at the ex-
pense of the county, and to correspond with the other
prisoners in the gaol. It was not denied that they were
drawn up like a number of wild beasts, ordered to take
their hats off, and shown to persons who went to the
gaol to see them. The only statement in opposition to
that was, that fewer persons happened to go as visitors
to the gaol at that time than usual. Then it was ad-
mitted that they had been compelled to bathe. It was
said that that was in conformity with the regulations of
the prison. It was charged that after they had been
compelled to strip naked, they had to bathe in dirty water.
That was contradicted by the statement that:only two.
persons had bathed in the same water before ; and that
therefore it was perfectly clean water.—(Hear, hear.)
The purity of the water would of course under such
circumstances, depend upon who were the persons who
had been washed in it before.—(Much laughter.) Then
it was admitted that they were told they could only be
allowed to spend threepence in eggs and bacon, be-
sides having the gaol allowance ; nor was it denied that
the turnkey had told them they could neither have
their eggs boiled, nor their bacon cooked ; or, that
when they said the bacon could not be eaten raw, the
turnkey replied that many would be glad to have it
raw, and that in that state they would be content with
it.—( Hear.) Then again the rules of the prison were
that the prisoners should be locked up at eight o'clock
in the evening. These men had been locked up
at seven, and were told that they were not to
pay attention to the rules which were hung up in the
prison, because the Magistrates were cola tinually altering
them. Now this was a most important subject, and
the Noble and Learned Lord trusted that out of this
evil would come some good—(Hear, hear)—and that
care would now be taken, that rules should be framed
different with respect to persons in prison before trial,
to those applicable to convicts—(Hear, hear)—because
no Government, or Judges, or Magistrates had a right
to establish rules which would work this gross, this
grievous, and crying evil, namely that men whom the
law assumed not to be guilty should before trial be
treated as tried and convicted felons.—(Loud cheers.)
It was not the fault of the gaoler, it was not the fault
of the turnkey, it was not
.the fault of the Magistrates, a
but it was the fault of very bad system.—(Hear,
hear.) He hoped that, through the sufferings of Mr.
Lovett, this grievous abuse would be remedied, and
different rules would be established for different classes
of prisoners ; and if that should be so, no man would
rejoice in it more than Mr. Lovett himself. With re-
gard to prisoners before their trial, no man and no Go-
vernment had a right to subject them to any suffering
beyond that which might arise from that which was
necessary for their safe custody, and the proper discip-
line of the gaol.—(Cheers.) Beyond all that, these men
had been kept in prison nine days before bail was
taken for them.—( Hear.) Why was that ? Why was
not bail taken for them when it was first offered ? Mr.
Leader and Sir W. Molesworth then wrote, offering
themselves for bail ; and then it was that the Magis-
trates, finding that those were not helpless and defence-
less men, took the very first bail that was offered to
them. The fact was that they ought to have accepted
of the bail within nine hours of the time at which they
had been received into the prison. If they were found
guilty non constat, they might not be sentenced to more
than nine or ten days' imprisonment. He, however,
hoped they would be acquitted ; but of this he was
sure, that if they should be convicted, if he were in the
Government he should take care that they should not
undergo another hour's imprisonment, nor suffer any
more punishment on this occasion.

The Earl of WARWICK hoped that the Noble
and Learned Lord did not mean to say that any unfor-
tunate wretch who might be sent into gaol should not
be washed and made clean before he was tried? From
the cheers by which the Noble and Learned Lord's
speech had been received on both sides of the house,
it would almost seem to him that such a thing as that
was to be condemned, although there could be no
question that for the sake a keeping down fevers and
disease in gaol it was necessary that every attention
should be paid to cleanliness.

Lord SCARBOROUGH presented a petition from
Gainsborough in favour of the inland warehousing of
goods.

- Earl FITZ W 1 LIAM!! rose to present a petition
upon what he considered a most important subject. A
few nights ago he was about to ask his Noble Friends on
the Treasury Bench if they had any opinion as to what
were the causes that had led the Bank of England to
the step of raising the interest upon the discount of bills
of exchange. Their Lordships must have been aware
that that must have arisen from the Bank of England
feeling that the treasures in their coffers were reduced
to a degree below that at which it was desirable they
should remain. Then arose the question, what had
been the cause of those coffers being reduced below
their usual level ? Their Lordships must recollect
that during the course of the last eight or nine months
this country had been engaged in a very unusual course
of trade, a course of trade forced upOn it indeed in that
unusual manner by the operations of nature, but those
operations being greatly affected by the state of the law
relating to that branch of the trade of this country. He
alluded to the very extensive trade in foreign corn, into
which this country had been suddenly forced under the
peculiar circumstances of the law by which that trade
was regulated. To that lie believed it %as the opinion
of the persons most extensively engaged in the coal.

mercial affairs of this country that the Bank of Eng-
land owed that drain upon its coffers which had in-
duced it to raise the rate of interest, and which, he
believed, most of their Lordships were, in common with
many others, suffering from. The petition he held in
his hand was from an individual called David Laurie,
praying for the total abolition of the Corn-laws.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a peti-
tion praying for the adoption of a penny postage, and that
no considerable delay might take place in its adoption.