The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-02 00:00:00

Mr. Crafer presented papers fromthe Treasury.
Mr. Allan presented returns from Clerkenwell Prison.
The Duke of RICHMOND moved that the latter return
from the Clerk of the Peace of Middlesex be printed.
The Duke of SUTHERLAND i.resented petitions from
Shelton, Handley, Staffordshire Potteries, and other places,
on the subject of tt'e Apprenticeship System in the Colonies.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second reading
of the Commissions of the Pease Bill. As it would be im-
possible to keep the Commissidfis alive without this Bill, be
hoped their Lordships would not object to the speed with
which it was wished to pass it through the House.—Agreed to.
Bill ordered to be committed on Monday.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, on the Order of the
Day being read, presented a petition of a most respectable
and important character, coming as it did from a largo 'body
of' the population of Manchester, regularly convened for the
purpose, on the subject of National Education. The petition
had been entrusted to the Bishop of Norwich, but as that
Right Rev. Prelate was out of town, the Noble Marquis had
great satisfaction in presenting it. Amongst other things,
the petition prayed that such a system of education might be?
adopted as would admit to its benefits every class of society.
He thought it right to state to the House that it was not
the intention of Her Majesty's Government to enforce any
compulsory system of education : nor did he believe that
any body of persons whatever would sanction such a
system.—( Hear.) By referring to a book lately published
by the Central Society, he found that that Society had adopted
a very useful course in gi'ving publicity to various opinions and
methods of instructipn, collected both here and on the Conti

nent. Considering that his Noble and Learned Friend was
about to introduce the subject before the House, for the pur-
pose of which no man was more qualified, he thought her
Majesty's Ministers would best consult their duty by abstain-
ing at present from announcing any plan or the adoption of
the House till they had an opportunity not only of considering
the sotements and suggestions of the Noble and Learned Lord,
but of collecting from every useful and important source all the
information on the subject, it was possible for them to obtain.
Although they abstained at this moment from introducing any
plan, under these circumstances he hoped neither their Lord-
ships nor the public would consider her Majesty's Ministers
indifferent to a plan, because they might be assured that no
unnecessary time should elapse without their giving
some more extensive and much more effective system
of education for the poor than now existed. While he be-
lieved, on the one hand, it would not be 0:e wish of any per-
sons that a system of education should exist destitute of a
combination of religious instruction, he believed it would be
found that there were now established in this town a number
of schools for the purpose of education, but in which religious
instruction was extremely deficient; some in which the benefits
of moral and religious instruction were not to be found at all. He
considered that- the friends of national education must be
greatly indebted to those from whore the statistical returns
were presented to the public from local quarters, from which,
and from every quarter meriting consideration Government
would collect all the information in their power.
The Bishop of LONDON felt it incumbent upon him to
offer a few remarks upon the statement of the Noble Lord.
With raspect to those gentlemen who formed the most pro-
minent members of the Central Society of Education, he
believed it was a fact that for the last six months they
had been making the tour of the country, uttering vehement
speeches from the platform to assembled multitudes, and in
every instance, unless they had been compelled to change
their tone, having been admonished by popular feeling—in
every instance they had harangued against the introduction of
the Scriptures int. the education of the poor. Some of these
gentlemen were men of standing in the country, some being
Members of Parliament and Barristers, bat el had eonibi • 1 in
the purpose of advocating the cause of education as altogether
detached from the Scriptures, and of those persons wt re mem-
bers of the Central Society of Oducation and editors of the works
that emanated from that Society. Was it possible to suppose
that their object was not to introduce a system of eclucaion
unconnected with religious instruction ? It was too plain for
any man of common sense to doubt it. If the Noble Marquis
had taken the trouble to peruse the correspondence between
Mr. Simpson and Mr. Colquhoun, the Member for Kil-
marnock, he would have seen reason to alter is opinion of the
Central Association of Education. He begged, however, to
relieve himself from the suspicion of wishing to impute im-
proper motives to every member of that Society who was de-
sirous of diffusing education among tae people, and of im-
pu ing to them any view of sanctioning such principles. He
was convinced, however, in his own mind, that however
friendly those persons might be to religion, they were mis-
takea in the mode, and their proceedings wt re seriously detri-
mental to the spread of rel giants knowledge in the country. It
was impossibla to doubt tile fact, that since the three leading
members of that Saciety were travelling about the country and
calling meetings, in which they strongly advocated education
without the use of the Scriptures—it was absolutely impos-
sible not to suppcse that that was the object of the Society. He
would trouble their Lordships with a few other observations, in
order to ob. iete the necessity of replying to sn3 thing that might
fall from the Noble and Learned Lord (Brougham), and .he
would admit the present system of education was very defective.
It was only within the last twenty years that national educa-
tion had thriven in this country ; and even at this day it throve
only on a limited scale. He would not take upon himself to
say to whom the merit belonged of having first devised those
mechanical plans of education which were called the Leneas-
terian system, or the Madras system ; but with w homsoever
they had originated, they had conferred very great benefit
upon the community. Yet it was not to to supposed
that they have produced all the good they were capable of
producing, in so short a period as twenty years. We must
wait another generation before we could reap the full benefit
of those improvements. He would say, however, that in
Schools connected with the Established Cl.urch, or under
the superintendence of the National Society—whatever ins
perfections might belong to them—there was not one to
which the term pretended schools could justly be applied.
He knew, indeed, that there were Schools to which
that term, in its most odious sense, might properly
be applied, but certainly, they were not in
connection with the Established Church. The National
Society had made great exertions to improve the schools
connected with it and to extend educetion, he Meant
education in in the largest sense—not merely Scrip-
tural, but generel education, comprending insti uction
in various branches of useful knowledge, and in some instances
in mathematical science. In the agricultural districts it was
difficult to get the children into the infant schools, or away from
the parents at all before the age of 7 years, and they were almost
universally removed by ten or eleven years of age. Ile was a
warm friend to infant schools, but every person must be aware
that little would be done in the way of imparting substantial
knowledge in so short a period. At 10 or 11 years of age a
child in the agricultural districts being able to earn one or two
shilling a week, was taken from school when he could have ac-
quired even of religious education only the first. rudiments. It
had not been possible to carry out the national
system to its fullest extent ; and as he anticipated that
the Noble and Learned Lord, who was to lay before
their Lordships this evening, his plan of national education,
would dwell strongly upon the imperfection of the existing
systems, he (the Bishop of London) begged to suggest
to the Noble and Learned Lord that it was impos-
sible for any system to attain that perfection which he
in common with the Noble and Learned Lord was most de-
sirous to effect. For his own part he believed that the best
course the Legislature could take in respect to
this subject was to express its opinions strongly, and to as-
sist, by grants of money and other encouragment,
private societies which undertook to promote education by
their own exertions ; but he did not think it advisable that the
Legislature should interfere further, or in a more direct
manner.
Lord DENMAN felt it due to himself, and to the Society
which had been pleased to put his name upon the list of its
Members, to trouble their Lordships with a few observations.
Although he was bound to admit that no imputation had been
cast upon any one, yet he felt desirous it should not go out to
the world, that he had sanctioned in any way the dangerous
opinions which had been attributed to the Central Society of
Education. When solicited by some friends and members of
his own profession to allow his name to be enrolled amogst the
members of that Association, he felt that he was bound to do so as
a friend to the cause of education. The Right Rev. Prelate admit-
ted the imperfection of the present system, and he was justified
in saying that to remedy those imperfections was the object of
the Society to which he had the honour to belong, and which
had been severely dealt with by the Right Rev. Prelate. It had
gone forth to the world, on authority of the Right Rev. Prelate,
that the Central Educational Society had laid down those
principles, first, that education should be secular, and
secondly that it should be compulsory.—( Hear, hear.)
Now he ( Lord Denman) was authoriz. d to say
that the sole object of the Society vas that which the Rev.
Prelate admitted to be so much wanted, to collect impor-
tant information on the subject of education. On examining
the books published by that Society, he found no such opinion
as had been attributed to it. On the contrary, it abstained
from laying down any opinions, and confined its exertions
to the collection of information from which indeed important
'opinions might be formed. Every treatise had the name of
the author affixed at the end, but in no essay could the opi-
nions be found which had been asserted.—( Hear, hear.) In
one paper indeed be found the suggistion that it was
the duty of the Government to place the means of edu-
cation within the reach of all ; and that when the
opinion of the universal people became fixed in favour
of education, it would then be for the Government to
consider whether any person should not be compelled
to contribute to the education of his own children. This was
the greatest approach that he found in the papers published
by the Society to a recommendation of any thing like the
foreign systems of National Education. And with respect to
what had been said of the Society's opinions in favour of
secular education, he found nothing in its publications that
could bear such a construction. There bad been meetings
in separate parts of the country on the subject of education,
at which some such opinions might have been expressed.
There was such a meeting at Manchester, at which a distin-
guished Gentleman, Mr. Wise, and another Member of the
other House of Parliament, attended. Mr. NNsse was a
member of the Society, but the gentleman, Mr. Simpson,
teovesnubam'int'strahbeseer
owhof the b acelobmemenit
tpeear.ticuHlearltyhoaullgt ditton,
etcvee
sss
anroyt
few observations t o the House, as his name was connected with
the Society
The n
ca
iy had b
tei ot n , said thateen on.
sparing.
he
khße p lemon
ofN Dt,
hOeN
Centralin explao
S •
ost unjust in their attacks on other schools; on
nei'll°