The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-09 00:00:00

Iwould serve todirect him in that course most likely to conciliate
the good opinion and confidence of all classes. His Noble Friend,
the Marquis of Normanby, in the measures he had adopted,
had done mere than to follow up that course of policy which
had been chalked out by Lords Anglesey and 1111esley.
There was one other topic to which he would- but slightly al-
lude. At the period when his Noble Friend trok the reins of
Government from his predecessor there was an army in Ire-
land of between 2:3,000 and 24,000 men. His Noble Friend
had bled the good fortune to find, from persevering in the course
he lo'ffd adopted, that the army had been reduced to 13,4,50;
but since then upwards of 2,100 had been ordered on foreign
service ; and there were now not more tbaa 10,500, or
11,000 men in Ireland. He (Lord Hatherton) would say that
this state of things, so far from being a cause for apprehension,
spoke volumes of the admirable principles on which the Noble
' Marquis's Government had been condneted.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord BROUGHAM wished to know from the Noble Lord
which course he meant to take—whether he meant to support
the Bill or to throw it out ?
Lord HAT El ERTON—Of course I am for the Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM—Because the whole of the Noble
Lord's argument was against the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord would have them believe that the evidence before
the Committee spewed that Ribbonism did not exist at all.
I Now he (Lord Brougham) did not go sorer as the Noble Earl who
I had moved for the Committee, er the Noble Lord who was
t Chairman, but still he could not agree with the Noble
I Lord who had just sat down, that there were no associations,
no pass words, no organisation--and that the whole has to be
i attributed merely to the publicans—that the publicans liked
people to go to their houses and drink whiskey. The Noble
Lord might as well say there were no such things as Benefit
Societies, because they were all held at public-houses, and that
there were no such things as lawyers going circuits, because
they mostly put up at public-houses.—(Laughter.) Did the
Noble Lord mean to say there were no such things as
Secret Associations, hound together by secret oaths,
and which were exceedingly difficult to discover. He
(Lord Brougham) did not deny that the publicans
had an interest in these associations, and that they played into
the hands of secret combinationt, and he hoped the Magistrates
would not sleep, but would be more astute when granting
licenses, and would inquire whether the pnblican had allowed
a Ribbon Lodge to be held in his house. They were
most dangerous associatiuns, and he dol hope the
Magistrates would do their utmost to put them down.
After the length to which Irish subjects had been debated this
week, probably the best mode of ingratiating himself with their
Lordships would be to finish, which he should accordingly do,
not discussihg the subject further than just to say, that he en-
tered his decided protest against its being supposed that he as a
member of the Committee, went along with the doctrine that
there was little or nothing in it. He thought it was a deli-
gerous, a wide-spread asseeiation, and not the less dangerous or
criminal because it had not political objects ayerreu_mily for
agrarian disturbances. What could be more frightful than a
state of society iu which there should be such a combination—
( Hear, hear )—poesine over, with its secret oaths, to Liverpool
and other places, which. is quite natural, seeing that' there are in
Liverpool 30,000 Irishmen, 50,000 in another plate!, 60,000 in
another—( Hear, hear)—who of course bring over with there
their passwords and organization. " lam old enough to recollect
the United Irishmen, who spread their association into this
country and into Scotland, by means of the Irishmen settled
there. —( Hear, hear.) I say again, my Lords, that this is a
very dangerous association, and which this evidence' reveals, , and one requiring the utmost vigilance on the part of the Go- I
vernment. I caanot imagine a worse state of things than an
association of this kind, pushing its ramifications every whore
by means of secret oaths sad signs, not heir the be'tter, at
all, for having no distinct purpose, being ready fir any mis..
chieveue object--having the machinery prepared—occupied
now in agrarian disturbances, because time people of
' Ireland chose to say that in that of all countries
lie landlords should net manage their own estates.—( Hear,
hear.) That men could be had for a few shillings to shoot any
person, either for taking a certain lease, or for paying his rent.
Can there be an (eject IlloYe criminal—can there be anything
going more to the very root of society ?—( hear.) And can any
one suppose that it is not a machinery easily convertible to po-
litieal purposes—that there is not a ready mechanism for a re.
hellions society ?—( Hear, hear.) Ido not mean to say that it
is not the sincere desire of Government to put down these So-
cieties—l believe it is their strong desire—it has, indeed ;been
arguld to-night for the Government as if they were
charged with not doing their best to suppress
Ribbonism.—( Hear, hear.) Nobody ever odd so—no one
was more anxious to prove the negative in Committee than I
, wee—in truth, it was no great compliment to the Government
to free them front the charge of misprision of treason, which it
would be, not to do their best to put down these frightful com-
bieations--ending, as they generally do, in murder. I framed
the most eearchirg-the most drastic, questions to the witnesses,
with a view of vindicating the Government. I asked, " Have
the Government done all that was possible for them to do to
! put down these Societies ?"—" Yee." " Was there any
i one thing they could hare done to punish these offences
which they have not done ?"—" No." " Is that
ye:sr present deliberate opinion ?"—" It is, after full
consideration." But not satisfied with that, I also asked, " if
the Government had used all means which it was possible for
mortal men to use, to discover these Societies," and the answer
as,, that they had. And my impression is, that it would have
been better—speaking as a professional man—that the case of the
Government would have been better, if they had left it on my
• • general questions without going into details—not that I have
seen reason to alter my opinion. As to Mr. Rowan, I think
it necessary to state that there could be no imputation
on that respectable man. —(Hear, hear.) 31r. Rowan
never gave credit to the absurd tales about Mr.
O'Connell being—not King of England—but King of
. Ireland, retaining, I suppose, his seat in the House of
Comoro for though I think there could be no Crown in Ire-
. lanii.long,ltliout dependence on the Crown of England, yet
I doubt if it could disqualify for a seat in the House of Com-
mons, as not being "an office under the Crown"—(A laugh)—
but the absurdity is monstrous, and Mr. Rowan gave no credit
to it ; he only did his duty by disclosing this tale with the
others to the Government. My Lords, as to the inquiry, I
must say I never saw mca who, like the Noble Lord opposite,
had greater prejudices, act fairer, or with less symptoms
of contrivance, less appearance of being in league
with the witnesses, who were brought forward evidently with
i no other design than to reveal the truth, whatever
1 it might be.—( Hear, hear.) I still think the appointment of
; the Committee was exceedingly proper, and not only proper,
but absolutely necessary. and your Lordships would not have
discharged your duty, if you had not instituted the inquiry.
'The result of the inquiry has been most important ; for though
I do- not go to the full extent with Nohle Lords opposite, I had
use conception, before the inquiry, of the extent to which these
combinations had been carried ; and there can be no doubt that
they form a most dangerous weapon, ready to be used with fatal
i effect by any person disputed to empioy it.—(Hear.) One word
, a, to the testimony borne to the impartiality of the Committee by
; my Noble Friend lately arrived in this House (Lord Lurgan).
Isome persons had said the Committee was packed, that is,
chosen to work injustice. I envy not the feelings of those
persons after the testimony thus borne by their friends and
supporters. —( Hear, hear.) Nor do I envy the feelings of
those who, by the majority of 22, chose to pass a vote of appro.
bation before any inquiry.—( Hear, hear, hear, )
Lord HATHERTON wished it to be understood that he
, di,: not think at all lightly of these Societies, which he con-
sidered highly mischievous—his argument was only directed
against the extravagant statements of some witnesses.
Lord PLCNKET said,. after the unequivocal statement
of his Noble and Learned Friend that the Government had
done its best to put down these Societies, which, by the concur..
: risme it had met with, might be justly considered a verdict of
) unanimous acquittal by their Lordships, he would only say
that an experience of some forty years in public life enabled
him to affirm, that these associations had existed in Ireland
since 1798.-4 Hear, hear.) Ihe machinery had been esta-
blished by the United Irishmen, and had never been since
abandoned—( Hear, hear)—and it was remarkable that the
United Irishmen had first been formed in the North, and among
the Protestants, not the Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) He wished
only to add that he had always found the Catholic; Priests dis-
posed to assist in putting these associations down,
Viscount MELBOURNE said he had hoped that he should
hare been enabled to allow the debate to close without troubling
their Lordships.-but the Noble Duke had not only broken his
own silence, but compelled him to make a few observations.
The Noble Dnke had stated the reasons why he had supported
the motion for a Committee, and had said that he was quite sa-
tisfied with the results, and conceived that it fully justified the
appointment. Now he (Viscount Melbourne) had opposed the
appointment of the Committee, on the ground that it appeared
to him unnecessary and useless, tending to criminate the Go-
veynment of !eclat:id. Whether that was so nr not, it was notfor
him to gay. But as to Ribbonism, his prediction had quite been
fulfilled, seeing that not one circumstance had been stated
before the Committee which had not been nctorioue years ago'.
i There had been no new information on the subject of Secret
Societies elicited. The object of those Societies had been well
explained by his Noble and Learned Friend who had lately
addressed the House. He entirely agreed with him on the
subject, hut the house should recollect that it was necessary
to approach this subject with caution. Every thing secret gave
i great scope to the imagination. The eneallst matters became
important under 'such circumstances. As his Noble Friend had
stated there were most probably different views adopted by
different persons belonging to these Societies ; many of theta
Imight have ulterior views which they did not communicate to
others, and it appeared, besides, that there were different
idegrees in this Society. He did not mean to say but what
these Societies were productive of evil effects ; but he believed
that persons ought to be exceedingly cautious in believing
a'l that was asserted regardins the several sarcastic observations
had been indulged in by the N oble Duke. lie had alluded to the
circumstance of an individual of great power and influence re-
minding the Irish that they were nine millions, and never could
ask for their rights and be ' with safety refused. Now,
although he meat admit that that was an individual of very great
influence, yet they should recollect that that influence was not
exerted through the mean! of secret societies but through
public meetings. 14 Give ine,- said the Noble Viscount " the
force and power of public meetings, and I shall not be much
alarmed at any danger from secret societies." The Noble Duke
had also brought forward two or three other charses. In the
first place he said, that now for thetirst time, the existence of the
societies was admitted. The Noble Duke he thought mast be la-
bouring under some strange illusion—their existence had always
been admitted. The United Irishmen had sprung up suddenly,
and in secret, and had been carried to a considerable extent with-
out the knowledge of the Government of that day ; but since
that time the existence of secret societies had always been
known and admitted. The Noble Duke had also charged them
with putting into the mouth of the Sovereign, in various
speeches from the Throne, congratulations on the tranquillity
of Ireland. He only reenembered that such had been the case
on one occasion, at the end of the Session of the year 1834 ;
and for that his Noble and Learned Friend was equally responsible
with himself, and they certainly did on thafoccasion think
themselves justified, considering the state in which Ireland had
been previously, in drawing attention to its then state of trap_
guillity, of course
thateant herative tranquillity ; and so ii
ar as he recollected was th e. 4,1
ion on which such
, , an allusion had teen made ; of course
oeietie., bt. theey had not an idea
ok that there were no secret s
justified in putting that expression zohought they were
the mouth of
: the Sovereign when they considered the previous state of things
in that country, The N'oble Duke had also said that they had
notwithstanding their knowledge of the existence f ho!'
secret societies, reduced the peace establishment oStrti elye
s.waking, this was erroneous—they had not reduced the Peace
estObliehrnent. The peace establishment, as regarded -bath
the neilitary and the naval force, was at this moment larger
•
than tt:e one tile) had received from the Noble Duke 'in
183(1; b that was sot what the Noble Duke meant. He ex-
prain'
eg afterwards that he alluded to the great diminution of the
one which had taken place in Ireland in order to augment the
force in Canada,
without making any corresponding augmenta-
tion in the force at that country. This was a great question of
political interest, which he could not discuss at present, but he
ark -that it frequently happened that the effect
wofougledhemraerl eremolpyinion
might frequently make that force mere than
sufficient for the preservation of the peace, which under other
circumstances would require considerable augmentation ; but
at the same time, he must say that these opinions and predic-
tions were exceedingly impolitic, as front the weight necessarily
attached to them, coming, as they did from such high
authority,
they were necessarily calculated to realize themselves.
The Duke of WELLINGTON explained. With respect
to secret societies, he would observe that the society of
United Iriahrnonsprung up, and had actually occasioned the rebel-
lion from the effects of which Ireland was still suffering, with-
out the knowledge of the Government, that society had a secret
ergazination, and what he feared was that the ignorance and the
carelessness of the Government, might, in this instance, pro-,
duce similar unfortunate results, With regard to the reduc-