The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

to him by the abandonment in the present measure of the re
solution on which it was originally founded. But that resolu-
tion (though he felt it was not necessary to enter into that sub•
ject now) he (Viscount Melbourne) begged to say was net
abandoned in substance, and its principle was fully maintained
and supported. He said, then, what hope had they, with re-
spect to the Bill, if they should concede to the propositienk for
which the Noble Duke pressed Ott this occasion ? With re-
spect to the Bill for making a legal provision for the poor
in Ireland, that Bill was one of the greatest impor-
tance—perhaps of the greatest importance of any measure that
ever was brought before Parliament. It was admitted to he a
Bill surrounded with great difficulties, and their Lordships
knew the intense anxiety which was felt on the subject, in this
country and in Ireland ; but he could not concur in the opinion
which had been expressed by a Noble Earl opposite, and by a
Noble and Learned Friend near him. They had been pressed
on all sides to bring forward that measure. He denied that
they were under any moral compulsion to pass the Irish Poor.
law Bill. He trusted that it would be found practicable to
frame an efficient measure for the relief of the poor in Ireland ;
but if it should appear that the proposed measure was not suit-
able to the country for which it was intended, or if it shou'el
still further appear that it was calculated to aggravate the evi!s
which it was intended to diminish, they were not in such a situ-
ation as would prevent them from postponing the measure, and
in the propriety of such a postponement, under such circuin-
stances, he was persuaded the country would fully acquiesce.
At the same time he repeated his anxious hope and his confi-
dence that the Bill at present under consideration in the House
of Commons would be found to be a practicable measure, and
completely adequate to the purpose for which it hail been framed.
But it certainly did not appear to him to be wise or prudeie
on the part of their Lordships—it did not appear to him the 1
they would be doing tbeir duty as a House of Parliament, to
postpone a measure the advantages of which were certain,
and which was required by the country, in order to wait fur
another measure, on the exact nature and on the efficacy of
which there must of necessity hang a certain degree of ambi-
guity and doubt. The Noble Duke said that the Bill for the
relief of the poor in Ireland would afford a criterior for jut's:-
jars, the property of the middle and lower classes, and of thereby
fixing the rate in the Municipal Bill. But nothing could be
mole easy than in the Bill under their Lordships' consideration
Cr acid the qualification which the Poor-law Bill might contain.
Nothing would be more advantageous than the facilities to se-
cure a proper qualification which would he afforded, should thet
Bill be sent to them in a mature and perfect state. As to the
Noble Duke's proposition, he (Lord Melbourne) could see ao
reason whatever for acceding. The subject had been consi-
dered in two Sessions of Parliament, and their Lordships
were perfect masters of it. The Noble Duke said that it sans
their duty to protect the Church of England established in
Ireland from injury ; and contended that the proposed corpe-
rations would be injurious to that Church. Thet was begg,nste
the question. The Noble Duke had not shown a single point
in which the new Corporations could be injwious to the Chur(
of England established ix Ireland, except as they might affect
the constitution of the House of Commons, which was to make
laws for Ireland. The course which the Noble Duke called
upon their Lordships to pursue upon the present occasion was
entirely novel. They ought always to be cautious of adopting
a new course ; especially with reference to the proceedings ef
Parliament. He begged also to suggest to their Lordships
the expediency of considering what might be the effect of such
a course Upon the feelings and conduct of the other House of
Parliament. —(Hear, hear, hear.) He begged to suggest to
them that the consequence of adopting such a course might be
to create a struggle and contest between the tiro [louses.—
( Hear.) If their Lordships deferred a measure which wes
sent up to them by the other House of Parliament, until
they saw what that House did with other measures that were
before them, the other House of Parliament might deft r
measures until they saw how their Lordships might think
proper to deal with other measures before them.—( Hear- )
And he begged to remind their Lordship that such a post-
ponement on the part of the other House of Parliament might
be atteneed eith much more awkward circumstaeces than tiny
postponement on the part of their Lordships.--( Hear, hear.
bear.) Ile would not press that point any further, but as he
say no reason for postponing the consideration of the BiA
Isefore their Lordships, and es he saw no natural connec-
tion between that Bill and the other Bills which were in
progress in the other House of Parliament, Ito should most
diatinctly say " Not content" to the N epic Dslre's motion.
The Duke of WELLINGTON, in explanation, observed
that thohgh he objected to much of the principle of she Irish
Municipal Corporation Bill, lie was not adverse to the es.
teldis'ewent, under certain circumstances, of local jurisdictioes
iu Leland.
Lord FITZGEHALD and VESEY said that he was lir-
as:Ming/to trespass upon their Lordships' attention ; but cola.
seierieg the part which he lied felt it to be his duty to take on
this subject iii the last Session, when he had submitted to their
Lordships certain resolutions which e.-ere agreed to, he felt that
he in seine degree owed it to himself—that he owed it to ilia
interests of that country with vshieli his Noble Friend am!
himself were so intimately connected—that he even owed it to
their Leedshipa, to state the grounds on which he supported
the Noble Duke'ssmotion. If the proposition involved in tie,
Nlae;eipal Bid were now for the first time offered to the
adoption of their Lordships—if they could be apeiin placed
iii the exact situation in which they were last Session, to
deal widi a Bill which established certain Cotperations it
I eland, iu lieu of Corporations to be abolished, he should not
brick from t ecommending to their Lordship's the course
widch he had recommended on' that occasion.- But thrt
des net the case. When he looked at the purpose for
whirl! the Corporations in Ireland had been origiaally eatetn
end the oli;ect which thet.,r! Corporations
to maintain, with his Nol,ic Friel:J. lit
theh were inteade,l far die support dad nieintenaece or Pro
zest eit loos ie Ireland. At lean, it cull net be
ttat: wes the c:ise with respeet to tb' great rnajw.it..
a the ut eiitahli.,lied in the reign of Jr. roes I. Coniiilerino
that those Cerperadons in Iselend were of an eaclu,dve cha-
racter, and coesideriag that that 17,1 e nut drsiraYe re•
ven: eireurnsta.tees, he unheaitatin,gly ceneerred ht the atoll
lion of tho-e Corperationa. The Nohle Viscount, in the laa.
srssion, did not fatted the measure of abolition on any impute',
delinquency on the part of the Corporations. What tiejits'*
Im:int:tined was, that their cxelusive.charaeter operated
riortal Oil the administration of justice ie Ireland. as well a,
in other rnspecs - Ile ( Lord Fitze;crald anti Vescy) e9ii-
curred with the N,ble Viscount in the exnedieney of ebolish
ing these Coseerations ; and r.heit their Lordships rr.fused tr
go further, dien they -,-,:ftised tel confirm excin,ire chn.
r ester of the Cerporations which it was proposed to crew,:
in the stead of the aholished Corporations. that refu.sal
toureled on the sante reason as the abulition—tiarne!Y
the (hanger of giving- predoitiinant power to any party
Idrind. Nene of their Lordships discussed at 'any lstgzi
tire details of the Bill ef last Sesaion. Now, !alone he viii
dented the course which he had taken lest Cession, if le
acluieseed in a proposition so diffsrent from that ceurse n•
tit,: present motion of his Nolth. woeld anawe;
_not that he did not still think that the proceedirdrs
3-ears had not produce'l an anomalous state of society is
Iselaad, which they ceuld hardly hope is their days entirely e
get rid of —n that he did not still think that the cou-se is tile;
he recommended to their Lordships last year was the besi
course that could b? pursued for securing the just administra.
thin e f the law, and public tranquillity, ih Ireland, but that le
s)tv no ground for hoping ilea the measure would be accepts''.
by the other !louse of Parliament, which their Lordshios its
ttieught it right to offer. That being the (ewe, he thoUg'w is
would be merely delusive, and that it would excite uejuat ex•
pectatiocs, if he were to repeat his crews° of last Session. I
could not be expected, after the course which had been taloan
by the House of Commons, after the elaborate reasons which;
toat House bad given for taking that course, but that, if their
Lordships reiterated their proposition, agreed to by a large
majority last year, so far from coaciliating, it would have the
effect of widening the breach between the two Houses, at,
_occurrence which it was their Lordships' duty, not to the
constitution alone, but to their o.vn constitutional indepen
(fence, to take every proper means of averting. Such was
his chief and influential motive for concurring in his Noble
Friend's proposition; and on no other ground should lie think
himself justified in abandoning the course of last Session. He
could assure the Noble Viscount that he shared in no councils
which had for their object the defeat of the Bill or the destruc-
tion of its main objects ; for he certainly did find, in the man-
ner in which the deliberations of that House last Session had
been received in Ireland, an additional and urgent reason for
inducing them, if they could do so consistently with their duty,
for departing from their course of last year, and, for adopting
another course, which was likely to lac better received. He
entirely disclaimed for himself, and for his Noble Friends
around him, entertaining any opinion that the people of Ire-
land were unworthy to govern themselves. And so far was he
in the last Session from placing his opposition to the Bill on
the ground of the danger of Catholic ascendancy in Ireland,
he well remembered, and their Lordships, perhaps, remem-
bered, that while he admitted the existence of that danger, he
contended that it must be looked boldly in the face, and that
lie should object to making the Corporations of Ireland of an
exclusive character, whether Orange or Catholic. His ob-
• jection to the Bill was, that it rendered the principle of ex-
clusion perpetual. On these grounds, he thought the
course now proposed perfectly justifiable, without attri-
buting to it any of the motives which it had pleased the
Noble Viscount to suspect. The reasons assigned by the
Ilouse of Commons rendered it imperative on their Lord-
ships to endeavour to adopt a proceeding which might prevent
a further separation on the subject between the two Houses.
If their Lordships honestly deprecated that further separation,
they could not reiterate the course of last year. What then
remained for them to do? The Noble Viscount said " Adopt
the Bill." Now, their Lordships' objection to do so was not
founded on an objection to the principle of establishing Corpo-
rations in Ireland. It would be no honest concession on the
part of their Lordships if they were not prepared to admit the
expediency of establishing Corporations in Ireland. But they
wished to be careful as to the mode in which the principle of
establishing Corporations in Ireland was to be carried into ef-
fact. The Noble Viscount said that the proceeding proposed
by his Noble Friend was novel, and that its adoption might be
attended with injurious consequences in future. He would re-
mind the Noble Viscount of a proceeding of a similar nature,
not, it was true, where one House of Parliament waited for the
proceedings of the other; but still it was similar. When the Ca-
ttaelic Relief Bill was conceded, neither House would proceed
with it unless it proceeded pari passu with a Bill for putting
down the Catholic Association ; this showed that it was not
new for the Legislature or a House of Assembly to await for
the accomplishment of one measure on which another measure
depended. Now he did not understand the Noble Duke to

say that they were to wait for the Bills coming up from the
Commons—the Noble Duke confined himself to this, that
Any s R received from the Crown at the commencement of the
O—N \ a communication that certain measures were to be
' d iv the Government, it was a ground for waiting un-
tirc4-41iyasures were actually produced. The Noble Vis-
t.
t.."?;7;► =l-2,: Count lOW what connection there was between the Bills
t , ";

;41,)