The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-05 00:00:00

THE CHURCH RATES DIVISION,
AS REFLECTED IN " THE MIRROR."

Majority against the bill .. -10
This is progress; and again and again the reite-
rated cheers of the Opposition ring through the
House. The Speaker, according to custom, repeats
the numbers, whereupon the cheers break out with
renewed vigour, until it occurs to the victorious
army that others are entitled to rejoice with them
over the discomfiture of the Abolitionists. There
is, thereupon, a rush to the clubs and the telegraph
offices ; and many a rector and vicar in cathedral

city and distant country town receives the welcome
news as he sits down to dinner, that the obnoxious

Church Rate Abolition Bill is again thrown ou
this time by a majority of ten.

TAXATION OF CIIARTIIES,

One of the most numerous and influential deputations
within. our recollection waited upon the Chancellor of the
Exchequer yesterday afternoon, at his official residence,
Downing-street, for the purpose of "respectfully urging the
withdrawal of the proposed measure for extending the in-
come tax to charities." Nearly 250 noblemen, members of
Parliament, and official representatives of the charities in
town and country were present, many of whom could not
gain admission to the room in which the interview took
place, and the ordinary solitude of Downing-street was ex-
changed for the bustle of Fleet street at midday.
His Royal Highness the Duke of CAMBRIDGE introduced
the deputation in the following terms :—Sir,—l am re-
quested by a very large body of gentlemen connected with
the charities in this country to introduce this deputation to
you. I appear myself as the President of Christ's Hospital,
and we are requested to express our regret with respect to
the proposal you have made in regard to the extension
of the income tax to public charities. As there are
other gentlemen here who will speak on other charities,
I shall confine myself to Christ's Hospital. The measure
you propose will very much circumscribe our means of
doing good. Our institution will have to pay £2,000 a-year,
and that will take from us the power of providing for 40
boys. Then, again, the Hetherington Charity is anuther in-
stitution with which I am connected, and which will also
suffer from this tax. That charity grants annuities to the
blind, and one of two courses will only be open to us. We
must either restrict the number of the annuities, or reduce
the amount paid to the annuitants. The latter course we
could not think of taking; but if we did it would make a
charge upon the incomes of these poor people, which range
trom £lO to £2O a year, In the time of Pitt these incomes
were exempt, and that exemption Sir R. Peel continued
when he imposed the income tax. To tax chariles now
would be to introduce a new principle, and ais being the
case, you will feel that we have ground for making a strong
remonstrance against such a course, I therefore hope you
will reconsider this matter, with a view to continuing the
exemption at present accorded the charities.
Mr. TURNER (treasurer of Guy's Hospital) read a me-
morial, which embodied reasons against the measure.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said he appeared as the
representative of the Clergy Orphan Corporation and the
Sons of the Clergy Corporation, to advocate the cause of the
widow and the orphan. He need not enter into the hard-
ship of the case after what had been stated by his Royal
Highness, and more fully set forth in the memorial. The
Sons of the Clergy Corporation had three objects in view—
to grant assistance to aged and infirm clergymen in embar-
rassed circumstances, to grant aid to those who were in dis-
tressed circumstances through no fault of their own, and to
apprentice the children of clergymen in distress. There
were 1,530 recipients from this charity, and it the tax was
enforced they must either reduce the number of these reci-
pients, or diminish the amount granted to them. The first
was impossible, for they could not cut oft 75 widows from
their means of support, and therefore the only alternative
would be to reduce the allowances. With regard to the
Clergy Orphan Corporation, they would be compelled to

diminish the number of orphans, and what would become of
them if they were sent back into the world without friends
or home ? They might become outcasts and last characters.
He hoped the right hon. gentlemen would listen to the cry
of the widow and the orphan, and give up his proposed tax
on charitable institutions.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply, said—
Your Grace, and your Royal Highness, my Lords and Gen-
tlemen, I am not sure that I entirely understand the pur-
pose of this great meeting, rather than deputation, with tho
attendance of which to-day I have been honoured beyond
all precedent of those who have held the office which I now
unworthily fill. It is essentially a meeting of reasoning on
one side, and the very circumstances of the case would ren-

der it impossible for me to state the grounds on which my.

self and my colleagues have decided on the proposal that it
will be my duty this night to lay before the house. The
meeting will believe that they will have no expectation of
having the measure carried by influence apart from reason-
.

ing. So far as it is lawful and convenient to distinguish
between influence and reasoning it will be done, and I may
say that the result will not be antagonistic to the meeting
to-day. This proposal is not made in a time of public pres-
sure, but in a time when the proposers and not the adver-
saries of the measure are most likely to suffer. From the
addresses I have heard, and the memorial which has been
read to me, I am convinced this question has not been suffi-
ciently before the public mind, and is not thoroughly un-
derstood by the public at large. Yet this is not a measure
that ought to be carried by influence. It will be my duty
to explain the reasons upon which I have made the propo-
sal in another place. We shall refer the matter to the con-
sideration of the House of Commons, and I shall state to
the House of Commons what I have statel here—that we
shall not press it but with the freest sanction of that house.

I wish to state to yoUii;t;7l;cierthenameof charities are
gathered together an infinite diversity of bequests of diffe-

rent kinds, and I wish to know from your Royal Highness,

or any of the representatives of the deputation, if I am to

understand that as to everything falling within the descrip-
tion of a charity it is their desire that Parliament should

continue their exemption of taxation of all kinds, and by so
continuing, make itstlf a party to the maintenance of all
such institutions _

-TheDuke of CAMBRIDGE—Under what head do you
classify the institutions?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-4 do not here in-
tend to class them, but I want to know if it is your wish in
simpliciter to exempt them from taxation. (dear.)
The Duke of CAMBRIDGE—That question I am not pre-
pared to answer, but, as far as I understand, I apprehend
that we do intend it should be so. (bear.)
The deputation then withdrew.

The Speaker proceeded to put the question. It
was now about five o'clock. The benches were over-
crowded, and the " whips" were übiquitous. The
hackneyed character of a church-rate debate has
driven a number of members to the " subterranean
regions" adjacent to the river terrace. As soon as
the bell rings for a division, a dense crowd of mem-
bers pours into the lobby and enters the house, up
to the moment when the last sand in the minute-
glass run out. The Speaker again put the question.
It is well understood on these occasions that the
first contest on a division is one of relative strength
of lungs. The Ayes try to out-shout the Noes, and
the Noes in turn seek to convey the idea that the
voice of the Ayes is but the whisper of a faction.
The country gentlemen generally gain this victory,
and to-day is no exception to the rule. The friends
of the bill cry Aye ! with something of factitious
vehemence—it is a sudden burst of sound that no
operatic composer has ever rivalled. But the ex-
plosion of Noes is as the bellowing of a herd of
bulls,—mighty, deep-mouthed, sonorous, indignant,
and protesting. "Ayes to the right; Noes to the
left," says the Speaker," " Tellers for the Ayes,
Sir John —." The rest of the sentence is lost in
the confusion and hubbub. The gangway are at
this moment filled as by bees, and slowly, on ac-
count of the press, the friends and opponents of the
bill file off, up and down the floor, to the two lobbies.
It is long before the tellers can make their report
to the Speaker—never heard except by a teller or a
stranger—" The House is clear, Sir." The Speaker
makes the usual rejoinder, " The tellers may pro-
ceed to tell." The clergymen and Dissenting minis-
ters in the galleries draw a deep breath, and
await the issue in great excitement. A few
members enter the House after the division ; then
comes a steady stream from both lobbies, until by
degrees the House becomes densely filled, and an
almost impassable crowd collects behind the
Speaker's chair, and below the bar, so that the
respective tellers can hardly force their way
through to the table. By a singular circumstance,
the tellers for the Noes first present themselves to
the clerk, who with pen and slip of paper is ready
to make the usual memorandum, to be handed, in
due time, to the senior teller of the victorious party.
It is generally assumed that those who have fewest
votes to count will be first at the table, and, for a
few moments, the friends of the bill make them-
selves pretty sure of a triumph. But the tellers for
the Ayes are seen marching up the floor from the
bar. They go to the table and whisper to the
clerk. This is the critical instant. If the Ayes
have it, the paper will be handed to Sir J. Tre-
lawny. It is handed to Colonel Taylor, and a
deafening shout is sent up from the Conservative
benches. It is continued as the tellers range them-
selves on the floor, and prolonged even when they
come to the table, so that a few moments elapse
before the extent of Colonel Taylor's victory is
ascertained. At length he announces the numbers
in a clear loud voice :
Ayes 275
Noes