The Sun.
London, England, 1830-06-22 00:00:00

SUGAR DUTIES.

The House then resolved itself into a Com-
mittee of Ways and • Means, to take into further
consideration the Resolution respecting the Reduc-
tion of the Sugar Duties.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-
moved that the Resolution be read, and it was
accordingly read by Sir Alexander Grant, the
Chairman.

" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that towards
raising the supply granted to his Majesty, there shall he
charged the following duties upon sugar imported into the
United Kingdom ; that is to say—

" Upon all brown, or Muscovado, or clayed sugar, being
the produce of, and imported from the British possessions
in America, or the island of Mauritius, according to the
average price of brown or Muscovado sugar, published in
manner directed by law, viz.—
" If the value of such sugar shall exceed such average
price by more than one shilling the cwt. 1/. 7s.
" If such sugar shall not exceed in value such average
price by mere than one shilling the cwt. 1/. ss. 6d.
" If such sugar shall be of less value than such average
price by two shillings the cwt. 11. 4s.'''
•" If such sugar shall be of less value than such average
price by four shillings the cwt. 11. 2s. 6d.
" If such sugar shall be of less value than such average
price by five shillings the cwt. 1/.
" Upon all brown, Muscovado, or clayed sugar, the pro-
duce of, and impel ted from the British possessions in the
East Indies, the cwt. 1/. 17s.

" Upon all other such sugar, the produce of, or imported
from any other places, the cwt. 3/. 35."
"The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
before they became a subject of 'deliberation in the
House, begged to add, that a duty of 14 2s. Gd., as.
it was printed in the Resolution, should be only
1/. 25., and he thought it tight at the same time
to state, that the East India sugars of the low price
were to 'pay the -same scale of duties as the West
India' sugars of -the 'Same kind; but the higher de-
scription of tait Lidia sugars were, in all respects,
to remain in the same relative condition as to duty
as they had been before the contemplated alterations.
Mr. HUSKISSON—Sir, As I perceive it is
not the intention of my Right Hon. Friend (the i
Chancellor-of'the EicheqUer) to propose-any othiT

alteration or modification of these resolutions, than
that he has just now announced with respect to
East India sugars, • I must Crave the indulgence of
the House while offer a fetii obserVations, on what
otipears to me to he the most extraordinary and the
aiast incomprehensible, and the. least. practicable
proposition that ever was submitted to the Parlia-
trent of this country. The resolution was proposed
on Monday last, and the consideration of. it post-
paned in order to allow it to be. printed. I am glad
that it was so postponed. It has given time for its
consideration, and I believe there never was a Pro•
position connected with alio trade of this country
which, note that it has been considered, is viewed
with more alarm, or seems better calculated to pro-
dire endless trickery and confusion than that which
is now before us.—( Hear, hear.)—The pioposition,
if I understand it right, goes to. reduce the duty on
all sugars of a certain description
:of, quality and
prise, from twenty-seven shillings to twenty shillins,
and my Right Hon. Friend alleged, as the reason
for the reduction, the diStaessed state of the West,
India colonies. In order to prove this distress, the
Ilight Hon. Gentleman, when he brought forward
his propositions, cited the case of. two estates, and
explained the extent of the produce and the cost of
cultivation. These two estates were, I presume, in
aaikrrsoaame island, and, probably, in -the same parish ;
but if he had taken the whole of the old islands' be-
louging to Great Britain, as proofs of the distress of
the West Jodie interests, I believe the illustration
•
would not have been inapplicable. or exaggerated.
L-,(1-lear8 hear, hear.)—l believe all the ancient
islands , belonging to this' country, Jamaica, Bar-
badoes; Antigua, St. Christopher's, , Dominica,
every .one of those islands 'are in a state
,of
much greater distress theft those which have been re-
cently annexed to our pbssesaionso The land of those
islands produce now a much smaller quantity of
sugar by comparison than the islands which are
now in cultivation, and which are not so worn
out and exhausted by repeated- crops ; but at
.the same time, by the superior skill employed in
their cultivation, and by the judicious application
of capital in their management, the sugar that is pro-
duced is known,altheiigh small in quantity, to be of
a very superior quality. Now the resolution of
my Right Hon. Friend professes to relieve the dis-
tressed colonists of the West Indies; but that dis-
tress' frcitn these pectiliar circumstances prevails to
an infinitely greater extent by comparison in the old
colonies titan the new, and the resolution, therefore,
by' endeavouring to extend the sale of the coarse
sugar produced by the new colonies tends of course
to exaggerate the distress, to perpetuate the burthens,
and to increase the difficulties of all the old colonies,
where relief is known to be most required.—(Hear,
hear.)-s-The islands of Barbadoes and Antigua,
although two of the most fertile of the old colonies
are kuowit not to produce more than
.one-third of
the sigar grown, upon lands of the same extent in
the richer and more fertile new colony of Demerara;
and, therefore, the proposition which goes to. increase
the sale of the sugar of the new colony diminishes
in a proportionate extent the demand for the limited
produce of the old colonies, which must, from the
circumstances of that limitation), be most in need of
its assistance.—(Hear.)—.Before I go further, how-
ever, I would ask- the Right Honourable Gentleman
to explain to me the meaning and bearing of
the resolution which he has prooosed, notwith-
standing that it had been extensively circulated
and amply considered. I know from the best in-
formation, that there is not a man in this city, what-.
ever may be his situation, planter or merchant, buyer
or seller, or broker,- who .thoroughly understands
the manner in which the Right Hon.-Gentleman
proposes to bring his plan into ope ation. Sugar,
it is well known, is sold at what is called the long
price—that is the price'including the duty. Now,
to take the first instance, supposing that a man sold
his sugar at .515., or at 475., he would in the end
obtain just the same price. If he sold his sugar as
worth 54.5., it would-be considered 7s. better, and
the duty paid must be the high one; so that in fact
as the duty in one case might be only 205., and in
the other 275., the price obtained by the planter
might be just the same. This, however, is not the
only difficulty which these resolutions produce. I
would ask thißight Hon. Gentleman in what pos-
sible way he can hope to check that fraud and col-
lusion to which they hold out so much temptation.—
(Hear, hear.)—Sugar is not sold in small quantities,
but generally in very considerable lots, of perhaps
50 or 100 hogsheads at a time. Was this purchase,
then, to be made with no better consideration as to
quality and price than some fifty or one hundred
sheep in Smithfield market ? Some sugars are worth
30s. Some are worth 60s. How are the grada-
tions of the Right lion. Gentleman's scale to be es-
tablished, if the whole fifty hogsheads are purchased
at 200 is a broker to be at liberty to pick out a
hogshead, and say, I like this ? and is he to take it at
the price of the others ? How did the Right Hen.
Gentleman propose to guard himself against tricks
of this kind ? Is a valuation to be upon each hogshead
of a whole lot? How are the duties to be paid ? Are
they to be paid when the purchaser pleases ? If that
be so, then the purchaser will watch his time, tender
his duty when the price is low, keep the sugar till
the price rises, and then sell it at great gain to himself
and a great loss to the revenue. Again, in taking the j
averages, how is the Right Hon. Gentleman to guard
against_ the lowest duty on the primest sugar ?
These and fifty other modes of trick and evasion
will be resorted to for the purpose of defeating the
object of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan. I can
conceive too many cases in which, from the nature
of the Right Hon. Gentleman'S scale, it will be
utterly impossible to ascertain at what price the
sugar is sold, or what is the duty payable on it. I
will take a peculiar instance of this: suppose my
Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) to be a seller of sugar, and that he has a
broker dealing with him for a purchase. Sugars, as
I have observed before, are alwayi sold at the long
price. Well, the price agreed upon in the case I
put is 525. The Custom-house officer appears to
take his part in the transaction, and the seller, as
usual, demands an account of the duty he has to
pay. The average price of the duty, lie it recol-
lected, I would assume to be 255. Now the price
at which the sugar was sold being 265. Gd.,
the duty to be deducted would he 255. Gd, The
resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentleman say,
• however, that if the price be more than a shilling
above the average, the duty must be 275. This
would leave the seller only 255. Now, under the
new system, utrum horum, which is the price? If
they pay on the net price, the duty is 275. If they
pay on the gross, ii is 2.55. Gd. I think, the result
will be in many cases to force the Government to
become the purchasers of all sugars in the maiket.
How this Government is to dispose of the sugars
after they have purchased them is another considera-
tion. If a seller chooses to dispose of his sugars at
255., and the Government officers think they are
worth 265., what then, I ask, is to be the result ?
except that the Government must become the pur-
chaser of all the sugars that are brought to sale.
These are a feiv, but not all the objections I find to
this plan. ,With respect to the drawback, I have
other and more serious objections. Does-my Right
Hon;Friend mean to say that he will continue to
pay a drawback of 6s. or 7s. the hundred-weight on
all sugars exported from this country ? The plan
now before us will lower the price of all the higher
desciiption of sugars; but it cannot possibly raise
the price of the lovver, and we shall in future have.
to pay diliawbaCk, of 27i.," but ono

ductions of taxation which have been announced in
the present Session, I certainly am not one of those
who can say we are in a condition to spare 500,000/.
of our income • but I would call the attention of the

Right Honourable Gentleman to the propositions
which accompany these resolutions swi:ll respect
to the Spirit Duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman
proposes an additional duty of 6d, per gallon on all
spirits, British arid Foreign. This duty, supposing
the consumption to be the same as last year, would
produce just 750,0001. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man, at the time he explained the system of finances
for the year, took credit for 300,0001. which he
.expected to be produced by an increased duty of 2d.
on Scotch and Irish, and ls. on English spirits.
Now, allowing that 300,0001. to be deducted from
this 750,0001., there would still retain 450,0004
as a set-off against the probable loss of half a million,
which might be incurred by that reduction of duty
which I recommend. I therefore say, that the re-
duction of revenue on the who le income of this
year will be little or nothing compared with the
benefits that are likely to result from it.—(Hear.)---
Feeling, however, as I do on this subject, I would
say, that even if we :were to suffer some loss for the
first six months, such is the deplorable state of the
planters in those colonies—such is the suffering
and distress to which many highly-respectable
families, and the children of affluent parents, have
been reduced by the general fall in the prices of
all West India produce—that I think it would be a
wise and sound policy on the part of the Parlia-
ment of this country, to manifest its sympathy and
its feeling for that long-suffering class of our fellow-
subjects, by offering even at some temporary incon-
venience to ourselves, all that relief and assistance
which, in the present distressed and embarrassed
condition of all classes, it is in .our power to give
them —(Hear, hear.)—Much as the West Indies
had been promised, from time to time, nothing had
as yet been done for them. Up to this hour,
although every class in the country had received
some relief, nothing has been done for them. No
attempt has been made to relieve their staple com-
modity . from the burthen which oppresses it,
although the reductions which have been made in
the duties on coffee, and the other articles of the
same description, give us reason to hope that the
effect of such reliefs would tend to increase rather
than diminish that revenue which is supposed to
offer the obstacle. lam bound to say, while I thus
claim for the West Indies some relief from the Le-
gislature, that since the duties which I wish reduced
were first imposed, we have passed laws with re-
gard to their property, which, however wise, pru-
dent, politic, and humane they may be, are yet, in
a pecutsiary.poirit of view, calculated to produce a
very injurious effect on their estates.—(Hear.)—l
mean those laws which are applied to them as the
owners of slaves.—(Hear.)-1 would take one of
these laws, which I think more than any other en-
titles the West Indians to claim some relief from
the Government which imposed it. I allude to the
law which prohibits the West. India planter from
removing his slaves from oneisland to another, or'

even from one' colony to another, no matte; how
great may be the demand or the neecssi;y for such
removal. lam sorry to be compellA discnss in
a British Parliament any quest ionllavi:tg refrette, to
a right of property in our fellow in•itic:s. Rot the
West Indies are placed in a very peculiar situati,n
with respect to the estates whir!) thee cult'
They found those estates burthened With shaved
placed under their authority by many acts of the
Legislature, and they are bound to rev:Live them-
_ selves with regard to them as property in a. manner
peculiar and embarrassing.
.1 have said they cannot
remove them to any other colony where they me y
he more useful. I may lie told they can sell !hem if
they do not want so many. But they cannot be dis-
posed of in an island where the land is overstocked,
mad if they discontinue the cultivation of sugar, be-
• cause it is unproductive, they still further incieasse
their difficulties, because they do not require one-
tenth part of the number of slaves for the cultivation
of any odes' description of produce. I may be told,
however, that it. is in the power of the planter to
emancipate the negroes if he cannot employ or. st.p.- •
port them t but there again the law interferes as:d
prevents emancipation, unless the negro can support
himselfebecause he most eitherwise become a but-
then to the community.--e(llcer.)—Titie, then, i;
the state of the law. Ernidtly tile negroes they
cannot; emancipate them they eat:not—support
them they cannot—(Hear)—and there are I know,
not one, but several, islands at the presei:t motnerst
in wide!) the :thole produce of the land is insisfiicient
for the support arid clothing of the itegroes avbct are
necessarily retained oti it.-,-(Hear.)—These are the -
regulations of which, be it recollected, I do net
complain, nor w!sich I do not wish to see altered ;
but this, I say, is the situation in %Thiel) you have
placed the West India proprietor—these ere the
regulations you have imposed on him ; and lehink
they very much strengthen the claims which,
In common with all others, lie has on the Parliament
of the country for relief.—(f4ear.)—They are ti,e
ird lass
,to which, since the peace, no relief has
: been frequently avowed its
this House that they deserved that relief. It has
been frequently promised them,- but, unfortunately,
taxes in this country are never remitted swipe* en
some case of great difficulty, and when the urgency
of the moment imperiously demands it; and when
that moment comes, the claims of the West Indians,
however strong, or however pressing, Were always
deferred, to the louder and more pressing clamour
of those interests which were more immediately
connected with our domestic embarrassments. Toe
West Indians, after long suffering and great putience-
now claimed from Parliament the fulfilment of a por-
tion of its promise, and they come to us, I say, with
additional claims on our bounty, because of the re-
gulations we have thought it necessary to pre-
scribe with respect to the management of their
properties. For these reasons I recommend the
reductions I have proposed;. and I again en-
treat the Right Honourable Gentleman to, con-
sider the natttre of his plan. if that plan does
not work, as I contend it will not, in the way he.
expects, I entreat the Right Hon. Gentleman to
look at the consequences. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman in his Budget proposed to confer a boon on
the West Indians by the imposition of Is, a gallon
on all British spirits. It was felt—it was acknow-
ledged to be a boon, and it would. have given relief
without the slightest prejudice to any other interest,
however the contrary may have been supposed. But
what will be the situation of the West Indiana with
that boon taken away and an additional shilling im-
posed on rum, if the measure of the Right flon:Gen•
ti
eeilgiehrelief r bleat t
Gentleman l ion. seex-
,to adopt .the measure of last year; for that he shall have
rtsa ? fails,
thereforels asitin
entreatustto givet eR t
my vote. I do not say It is the best that could be de-
vised ; but it is the only intelligible, feasible, and prac-
ticable plan which at this period of the Session cart
be put in execution. I implore the Right 'Hon.
Gentleman to consider the consequences which re-
sult from these discUssions, and frotn
.this continual
alteration of opinions; its effect has been to suspend
all trade at this the most active period of the year.
I am now standing here as the representative of, I
admit, in a general case, all the interests in the
Country; but I am also the immediate representative
of the second great commercial town-in this empire;
and I speak the opinions of the great pottionof the
evensive and important interests of that great em-
porium of commerce, of all those closgy bOund
connexion with all the West Indian colonies, when
I say that this system of indecision, and of experi-
ment, produces there the greatest alarm, inflicts seri-
ous injuries on commerce, and is calculated to unsettle
all the transactions between mat; and 'man. , Only
look as the spectacle which has been produced by
the way that Government have proceeded with the
Spirit Duties.—(Hear.)—When the Right lion.
Gentleman proposed to lay a duty of one shilling on
British sprits, orders were of course sent out to the
West Indies to make more rum and less sugar. Is
it nothing to these interests' to have declarations
emanating from a Government like this,.taken tip
and abandoned without system, foresight, or consi-
deration ? Look at the course that is pursued with
regard to other articles. Three months ago it was f
announced that the growth of tobacco in this country
would be encouraged under certain regulations...
Orders were of course sent out to America to stop"
the importation of tobacco in anticipation of this
change. Now, however, comes a determination that
tobacco shall not be grown in this country; Is it
to be conceived that a vacillation of this kind does
not produce the most injurious effects on the irtte-
rests of individuals? I say, Sir, it is' the duty of
a Government to digest its plans better, and when
they are thus digested, to be more steady in its re-
solves. They ought to come to Parliament with a
fit, and proper, and well-digested systeM of action.
Their measures should be prepared in such a man-
ner as to effect the least possible mischief to the
commerce and the existing. arrangements of society
whenever change is rendered necessary ; and when
the means of that change are acted on with wis-
dom and foresight, they should be rigidly adhered
to. In the great concerns of the general policy of
this country, whether foreign or domestic, it is not
fitting that temporary.difficulees should be ever met
by temporary expedients..—We cannot manage the
extensive and complicated transactions of Govern-
ment
in the same manner as he'would manage an
army, and put forth a law one day as a kind of advanc-
ed guard, which may be ordered to draw back the
next day.—(Cheers.)—l am not stating my own feel-
! ings so amebas the feelings of the people who are placed
in such a state of alarM and difficulty that they do
not know one day how to proCeed, because they
know not what the next may bring forth. It is not,
therefore, in the tone of angry reproach, but of a'_'-
monition, that I call on the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to abandon that course of explanation, retracta-
tione adaptation, and alteration, which unsettles all
the transactions of commerce, and renders the
measures of the Goverment suspected or dis-
liked. The former mode of proceeding was much
preferable; namely, that a measure should be de-
liberately considered by his Majesty's Government
before it was brought dowq to that House. Infinitely
superior was that to the system of introdUcing a
plan without sufficient consideration, and then
if a clamour were raised, and if petitions were pre-
sented against it, abandoning it without any consi- .
deration at all. A great complaint had recently been
made of the number of petitions presented to the
House. Why, that was the necessary result of
bringing forward subjects without an adequate pre-
vious investigation. lam decidedly of opinion,
therefore, that a proposition should be well consi-
dered by the person who undertakes to make it, be-
fore he brings it forward, and that he should not
bring it forward in an undigested state, and thee'
allow it to be kicked out
.for the-purpose of substi-
tuting another. I confidently predict-that the pro-
position now made by the Right Hon. Gentleman
will not-be found practicable in its details; and that
it will occasion a considerable loss to the revenue ;
while, by equalizing all the duties. en sugars to 206.,
those evils will be avoided, etnd stirisfistnitsta will be
given to all parties.
Ti-.'e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER

before he proceeded further into this debate, was
anxious to know what course his Right Hon.
Friend, the Member for Inverness, meant to take on
the present occasion. Did he mean to adhere to
his old resolutions or intend to propose others?
Mr. C. GRANT retained the same opinion
which he had expressed two years ago nn the sub-
ject of these duties. But he felt considerable re.•
ltretance at this period of the Session to take any
step calculated in the least degree to mar any plan
of relief, however insufficient in his opinion, of com-
mercial interests which were in so struggling a posi-
tion. He thought, however, that he ‘;'its bound to
go on with his last resolutionshe meant those
which he had submitted last year, to reduce the du-
ties on \Vest India sugars generally to 20s. per cwt.
and on East India sugars to 255., permitting all re-
fined sugars bond to pass without afly duty what-
ever. After the able speech o? his Right Hon.
Ffiend 'the Member for Liverpool, he should not
eittit'r at any length into the data upon which his re-
solutions were founded, further than to express his
concurrence in the objections made to OR: Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer's plan, white Was, he thought,
partial in its principle, and i'dtirracticable in its de-
tails.

Mr. HUSKISS(i'4 then proposed his amend-
ment, which w'ee, that on " all brown, muscovado,
and plain sonars, being the produce of, or imported
from, the, British colonies of America, or the Mau-
ritir" , a duty of 20s. per cwt, should be laid."
e'he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
;.as obliged to his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Grant)
for gratifying his curiosity as to his intentions, after
the admonition, if not angry remonstrance, he had
received from his Right Hon. Friend the Member
fir Liverpool. He denied that he was justly charge-
able with any vacillation in the course he had pur-
sued respecting the sugar duties, or that he deserved
ensure and reprobation of his Right Hon.
Friend. At all events, if his eterree had been vacil-
Wing, so was that 'd his Right Hon. Friend the
l‘lember for Inverness. The first objection made
by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson) to the
resolutions Which he had felt it his duty to subtnit,
was, that they went to confer benefit on the newly
acquired British colonies, with of equally extending
it to the more ancient colonial possessions of the
"Crown. Now he Could fearlessly reply, that in
making up hie mind upon the scale of these sugar
dirties, he 'never thought of making any dis•
tinction between the old and the new colonies.
The beet objection made by his Right Hon. Friend
eres, that it would be found impracticable to apply a
scale of duties on each class of sugar ad valorem, so
as to give the promised effeet to these resolutions.
He saw nothing in the nature of the commodity
which could sesta:in the objection, and he therefore
thought it groundless. His Right Hon. Friend's pro-
positien he thought still more difficult, for it required
the: eetlue to be ascerta'ned of each particular hogshead
tsteugar in the market, while his (the Chancellor ofthe
Beeheepieers) only affixed a certain range of
prices within which the new duties were to ceeillate.
There could, in his opinion, be ►'ecr difficulty in re-
gulnting the price of each class in such a manner as
to show the holder, the officer, and the purchaser,
the exact rate of duty payable on the article, and the
paitcular manner in which it ought to be assessed.
He admitted the possibility, at first of the collusions
and frauds—such was, in fact, the necessary concomi-
tant of ad valorem duties. Parties would, no doubt, be
found anxious to rate the article lower than its
actual value, to escape the amount of duty, but it
was found possible to defeat such plans in assessing
other commodities, and to compel payment at
the proper value, and he had yet to learn why
this was not practicable in the price of sugars.—
The Third objection of his Right lion. Friend was
respecting the drawback, which, he said, he was
satisfied would give greater advantage to the large
exporters of West Jude' sugar than they were en-
titled to, for the rate of duty they had paid. Now,
if this were a general remission of 7s. of duty, he
could easily believe there was force in the objection,
turd that the drawback spoken of would be unequal
in its operation; but when the scale was regulated
and graduated as he had framed it, lie thought it
inikossible the exporter of refined sugars would, by
ititi-:new plan, receive a greater drawback than he
was entitled to. But if he did not mistake, he had
the authority of his Right Hon. Friend for thinking
that an increase nf drawback was not in effect so
prejudicial as be now asserted. There was a
ptriod when these very sugar duties were before
the Eight Hon. Member for Liverpool, and when
he had evinced a disposition to raiee the amount of
drambeck. There was also another objection urged
areinst the new resolutions ; it was this, that here-
tofore sugars were sold in the market at the long
/eke (including the duty), and hencefm th the sale
trust be at the short price, were the resolutions
/lifted by Parliament. He could not really see
airy weight in this distinction ; to the public it
inuet surely Le indifferent whether the sale was ac-
cording to the short or long price, for as the duty
must be paid before the article could reach the con-
- termer, the price to him must be in either case the
same. The planter, indeed, bad an interest, some-
what distinct from that of the merchant, and rather
in favour of sales at the short price; for he had first
to pay the commission to the merchant, and then the
Outy, and to risk the market price, duty and all, if
the customer failed in his paymente. The planter
would be therefore better off with the short price,
for then he would incur no risk as to the amount of
the duty. He should at present only say a few
words upon the resolutions suggested by his Right
lion. Friends. To the principle of their propositions
(that it would be desirable to have a great reduction
f f the sugar duties) he entirely submitted, and he
should be most happy to carry it into effect, whenever
the country could afford a greater remission of impost s.
He had already effected reductions to the amount
(if 3,300,0001., but he could scot venture upon a
further diminution of 1,000,0001., however anxious
he was to render the burdens of the country as
light as possible. The effect of his alteration of
the sugar duties would relieve the commodity of
200,000/. of duty. Upon the subject of the con-
sumption of sugar, he knew there were some who
thought that by a reduction of price a much larger
consumption would be induced among the lower
classes of the community. There were also others
who entertained a different opinion, and believed
that these classes could not be made, to any ma-
terial extent, greater consumers than they were et
present. The experiment would be tried. by the
plan which he had followed of lowering the price
upon the coarser article, which was consumed by
the bulk of the people. There were other topics
in the speech of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Hus-
kisson) which had more of personal reference to
himself than to the regular question before the Com-
mittee. He had been accused of vacillation, arid
of throwing commercial relations into confusion and
uncertainty. He was not conscious of being justly
chargeable with this fault : lie readily admitted that
he had modified his first proposition ; he had, upon
further consideration, deemed it right to alter his
plan. If this was a fault, he had certainly com-
mitted it; but lie thought he could describe a
much greater fault,—namely, the pressing forward,
for the sake of political consistency, any class of
measures which subsequent consideration and re-
flection ought to induce a mart to suppose were
not likely to be so productive as he had at first
thought them likely to be. If the sugar trade had
for the moment become embarrassed, while a new
regulation of duties were impending, this was an
accident for N% hich he ought riot to be held respon-
sible,—it was the usual attendant upon any con-
templated alteration of duties in any other article
of general consumption. This had constantly oc-
curred, and must continue to occur in all matters of
this nature, and had no right to be brought forward
as a personal accusation against him. Was not
the same fluctuation felt pending the discussions
upon the beer duties? on the leather duties ? and
the same of course happened respecting sugars.
The instant, however, that the House decided upon
the proposition now before them, all this uneasi-
ness would at once subside, and these resolutions
would be tried by the test of their operation. lie

' anticipated from them many beneficial results, and
not the least of these was, that their operation
would furnish a guide for their future progress, in,
if possible, increasing the degree of relit whith ail
must be anxious to give the public,
Mr. K. DOUGLAS rireti his intention of
supporting th innendment. In his opirCian general
permanent measures would be better than that pro=.
posed by the Chaneellor of the lachequer.
Mr. P. THOMPSON said that all practical men
with whom he had an opportunity of conversing on
the subject concurred in thinking that t!;`' plan of
the Right Hon. Gentleman wuld be found impracti-
cable in operations. According to the proposed ar-
rangemrpr, Ih-e seller of sugar in this country, hay-
ing his returns made in conformity with the law of
the land, would find it indifferent whether he sold at
the rate of 545. or 475. per cwt. It would rkevvise have
the effect of introducing but one pritt 61. ?Ai& into
the marker, and wtuld tad to place sugars to an
immense ekteht in the possession of Government.--
It had been stated that it would give great relief to
the West India Islands ; but he hid strong doubts
upon the subject, and would therefore caution the
proprietors to consider well before they gave in
their adhesion to a system which was so very preca-
rious as to its results. It might indeed be a benefit
to the new colonies; he acknowledged, but how
was it expected to benefit the old ? Could the
proprietors of the liner sugars calculate on getting
the same demand or the same prices when the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had freely admitted that his
measure was likely to create a general reduction in
price. The Mauritius sugars were included, and
would all come in henceforward at 20s. duty, yet,
during the last year, 18,000 tons of these sugars had
been imported, amounting to about one-fifth or one-
' sixth of the whola consumption of the country.
He would recommend the East India interest to the
consideration of Government, and wished to know
why they were excluded from the proposed measure
of relief, How was it that they were not intended
to participate itr the assured benefit arising from this
relaxation ? He was the more surprised at the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman on Monday,
when he remembered the pledge given by Ministers
on the 25th or 29th of May last year, with reference
to the sugar interests generally, the East Indian in-
clusive. When the East Indian Deputation had
waited on Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald, then President of
the Board of Trade, they were assured that the in-
terests of all who were connected with the sugar
trade should receive a full and fair discussion with a
view to some final satisfactory arrangement at an
early stage of the present Session.—(Hear,
The plan of his Right Hon. Friend was in this re-
spect superior to that propounded by Government,
inasmuch as it embraced the interests of the East
Indian proprietors also. The proposal of Govern-
ment was alike unjust to the East Indian interest,
partial to the West Indian, and injurious to the com-
munity; he should vote with his Right Hon. Friend.
Mr. DICKINSON adverted to the great distress
under which a portion of the West Indian planters
were suffering, and stated that the velue of property
in the sugar estates had greatly deteriorated, con-
cluding with a promise that he would support the
change of duties contemplated by Government.
Mr. STUART should support the amendment,
as the interest of those who were concerned in the
East India sugar trade had been very unfairly over-
looked in the measure brought forward by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. MANNING thought that this was altogether
a most unwise measure on the part of Government.
Inn giving relief to the low sugars, they gave relief
to the Mauritius sugars, from which they received
no rum. The fact was, that they taxed the old to
give relief to tine young British colonies. He was
for continuing the old system, and he should cer-
tainly en this occasion, support the amendment.
Mr. COURTENAY said, that it had been stated
by the Hon. Member for Dover that his Right Hon.
Friend, the late President of the Board-of Trade,
whose absence he regret ted on this occasion, had given
last year a specific pledge on this subject. He was
sure that his Right Hon. Friend did not go farther
than to state, that in applying the principle of ge-
neral reduction to the various taxes which were
raised, that principle would be applied to the duties
upon sugar as well as to the duties upon other
articles; and that a nearer approximation would be
hereafter made between the duties upon East and
West India sugars. He was sure that his Right
Hon. Friend did not go further than that, and that
pledge he was confident his successor in office was
willing arid anxious to fulfil. He objected to the
amendment proposed by the Right Hon. Member
for Liverpool, as by a sweeping reduction of the
duties on-sugars it would place in jeopardy a con-
siderable portion of the revenue. From the
Edinburgh Review downwards, those who had
advocated a reduction of the duties on sugars
calculated upon au increased consumption, not
amongst the higher, but the lower orders of society.
Now this measure went to afford the greatest
reduction in the instance of the lower sugars, and
he therefore was justified in taking for granted that
the increased consumption of that class of sugars
would be sufficient in a great degree to meet the
deficiency which the reduction might otherwise pro-
duce in the revenue. There was a measure to follow
this with respect to refiners, which would render
the present measure still more b neficial and accep-
table. The measure with regard to refiners would
be perfected by doing away with the evils of w!lieh
they complained, with respect to exportation. This
measure did not propose the ad valorem duty; and
he for one should object to a duty of that kind. He
conceived that this was the best measure which,
under all the circumstances of the case, they could
adopt. With regard to the drawback, he would
admit that there would be a bonus of Is. Bd. ope-
rating in that way after this measure passed; but
that would be for the general advantage of the
West India colonies.

Mr. P. THOMSON explained. He read a me-
morandum of the interview last year between a de-
putation from the East India merchants and the
then President of the Board, Mr. V. Fitzgerald,
from which it appeared that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman then promised that in the next Session of
Parliament the question of a general reduction both
in the duties on West India a►►d East India sugars
would be taken into consideration, and that the in-
terests of the East Indies would not be then over-
looked. It was rather hard that under such circum-
stances, instead of their interests having been con-
sulted, the East India interests should find their
produce burdened with a discriminating duty of 75.,
and they had a right to complain that faith had not
been kept with them.
Mr. BRIGHT was opposed to the proposition
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. If this measure passed, the colonies
would find it their interest to grow and export the
low, instead of the high class of sugars. The pro-
posed duties could only be collected by the inter-
ference of the custom-house officer in the transac-
tions between man and man, and such a system he
considered most objectionable. The West India
interests had every reason to complain of the pro-
posed additional duty on rum, which would tend still
more to prevent the consumption of that article.
He should certainly support the amendment.
Mr. HUME observed that the Government had
failed to redeem the pledge which it had given to
bring the subject fairly and fully before the House
this year with regard to East and West India sugars.
They had last year promised a full consideration of
the subject this Session. All parties were entitled
to equal advantages, and they should be extended to
them. The Right Hon. Gentleman avowed that he
proposed to give advantage to a particular party ; hut
he (Mr. Hume) held such a measure to be unjust
and partial, and one which ought not to meet with
the support of that House. What would be the
effect of this measure with respect to East India
sugars ? The duty on them at present was 375.
Now under the proposed measure of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, when the duty on West India sugar
would be reduced to 245., the duty on East India
sugars would be 45 per cent, greater thin it ; when
reduced to 225., the duty on ga)t India sugaro

would be 54 per cent.; when reduced to 215., the
difference would be 64 per cent.; and when reduced
to 205.-, which was the place that the Right Hon.
Gentleman stopped in his scale; the difference be-
tween the duties on West and East Indian sugar,,
would be 85 per cent. This Was a violation of the
pledge 0',3:1 by (lovernment on this subject. He
wished to see the ditties upon West and East Indian
sugar placed upon the same footing. He should
vote for the amendmetit;

Mr. BERTsitS, after describing the nature of
the two propositions before the House—that the
one, the amendment, proposed a sweeping reduc-
tion, which might cause a serious defic'ency in the
revenue ; while the other, that of his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was a
cautious measure of reductions inssolving no such
risk td the CSVentie, and afi-iirding relief to those who
were most distressed and who most required
proceeded to observe, that as his Right Hon. Friend,
the Member for Inverness, had not persevered in his
resolutions, he had a right to expect that his Right
Hon. Friend would vindicate his Right Hon. Friend
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) for having in this
instance made a selection between an ad valorem
and a fixed duty. It appeared to him that this was
not strictly an ad Valorem duty, but a duty gra-
duated upon a scale descending from the average
price of sugars in the market. It had been stated,
and his Right Honourable Friend had laid too much
stress upon the statement, that this WDS not a
case between the holders of superior and the
holders of inferior sugars, but between the sugars
of the old and of the new colonies. Now,
he contended, that in that House no such distinc-
tion as his Right Hon. Friend had set up ought to
be drawn between the old and the new colonies Of
the country. Both were entitled to the care, at-
tention, protection, and relief of the Government
alike in all respects,—any thing else would be par-
tial injustice to one or other of the two parties. Be-
sides, it was not true that the old islands were di-
vided into classes producing old and new sugar. in
Jamaica, for instance, sugars of various descripton,
old as well as new, were grown. What, then, could
be more important than the interests of Jamaica ?
Cast that island from your paternal regard, and what
injustice would you not do ? It had been insinuated,
and his Right lion. Friend had said so plainly, that
these resolutions were intended to give advantages
to the coarser sugars. His Right Hon. Friend had
computed in what manner sugar of different prices,
from 545. to 475. a cwt., would be affected by the
alterations now proposed, and had shown that sugar
at 475. would receive on the decreasing ad valorem
duty now proposed greater favour than it did at pre-
sent. There could be no doubt about it, and such
was the avowed intention of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. His Wght I-lon. Friend intended by
his proposition to afford favour to those sugars
which at present found a difficulty in obtaining con-
sumers. The first objection which he had heard
urged against the proposed alterations was the dif-
ficulty of carrying them into execution. He denied
tlr there was any practical difficulty—much less
any impossibility—of the nature which some Hon.
Members supposed. Quire the reverse. Another
objection was, that there would be a return, in case
of exportation, of a drawback exceeding the
amount of the duty. He was sure that his Right
Hon. Friend had not used his general accuracy in
reckoning this at Bs. or 9s. a cwt. It must go upon
the assumption that there was now a bounty on the
drawback. The Hon. Member for Dover had re-
tracted his first opinion upon this point : indeed he
could not refuse to do so ; for being a practical
man, he must know that sugars were selling abroad
and here at the, same price; and if that were so,
all the notion of a bounty on the drawback was at
an end. The Hon. Civilian opposite looked doubt-
ful as to that position ; but he was sure that if he
consulted his lion. Friend the Member for Dover,
who sat near him, the Hon, Civilian would find that
he (Mr. Herries) was right. He thought that his
Right Hon. Friend had remarked with too much
severity on the plan which he said would give the
finer an advantage of Bs. or 9s. per cwt., but which
he (Mr. Herries) contended would not give him an
advantage of Is. 6d. Now even when his Right Hon.
Friend had a situation in the Government, pro-
posals were made to the West India interest of the
following description. He must beg the attention
of his Right Hon. Friend, for there was a Bill
brought in tinder his direction, in which this very
proposal was made, that there should be three rates
of duty on the different sugars—namely, 28s. for
sugar the produce of the West Indies, 31s. for
sugar the produce of the East Indies, and 325. for
foreign plantation sugar, with this additional pro-
viso, that all sugars exported should receive a bounty
of 325., although the duty on the sugars was lower
than that sum. Hence it appeared that there was
nothing so monstrous in the plan of a bounty
on the export. After defending his Right I-lon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the
charge of vacillation and unsteadiness which had
been brought against him, the Right Honourable
Gentleman proceeded to notice the charge which
the Hon. Member for Dover had brought against
him, of suspending the operations of trade by the
changes which he meditated upon this subject. The
charge came with a peculiar grace from dgentleman who
had proposed to the House to change the scale of duties
notin one particular branch of trade, but in every branch
of trade, to which the taxation of the country ap.
plied. His Right Hon. Friend had riot quite ex-
plained to the Committee the extent of his resolu-
tions. His Right Hon. Friend had formerly moved
a resolution, and that resolution had been referred
to as that which his Right Hon. Friend had moved
that night—of which one part was, that the dui,
on foreign plantation sugar should be 285.; on
West India sugar should be 205.; and on East
India sugar should be 255. per cwt. He presumed
that the reduction of duty on foreign plantation
sugar also formed at present part of his resolutions.
He knew that it was not at present in the resolution
which he had submitted to the House; but he sup-
posed that it would form part of those to be still
submitted to it. His Right Hon. Friend had also
alluded to the refilling sugar in bond; it was un-
questionably an abuse—
Mr. C. GRANT here interrupted Mr. Herries to
inform the House that his first resolution was to
reduce the duty upon sugar, the produce of the
West Indies and the Mauritius, from 275. to 20s. a
cwt., and upon sugar the produce of the Ernst
Indies from 375. to 253. per cwt. The other measure
was to enable the holders of sugar to refine it in
bond without drawback or bounty.
Mr. HERRIES held that it was essential for his
Right Hon. Friend to declare what he intended the
duty to be on foreign plantation sugar.
Mr. C. GRANT observed that he said nothing
of plantation sugar; his resolutions applied only to
sugars the produce of the West and East Indies
respectively.
Mr. HERRIES was glad to hear that, as it re-
lieved him from the necessity of making any obser-
vations upon the reduction which his Right Hon.
Friend had formerly proposed to make in regard to
the duties on plantation sugar. He must repeat the
statement made by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, that the utmost gain to the revenue which
could be derived from the new duty on spirits would
be not more than 200,0001. According to any esti-
mate which could be framed of the probable loss
arising from the proposed reductions, supposing it to
be whole loss, it could not be less than 400,000/.
He (Mr. Greet) would therefore incur a total loss
of 200,0004, in hopes of having it compensated by
an increase in the consumption of sugar.
Mr. BARING declared iris intention of voting
both against the resolutions of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer and of his Rig:it Hon. Friend Mr. Grant.
He voted against the first, because he thought that
they contained a plan which it would be difficult to
carry into execution ; and against the last because
they would expose the revenue of the country to too
great a risk.
Sir R. PEEL said that he wished to say a few
words on the last point to which the Hon. Member
for Callington had adverted, and which he consi-
dered to In by far the most important consideration

which had yet been introduced into the debate.
Thzt point was simply this—was it the duty. of the
House, in the present state of the finances Of the
country, and after the remission of taxation that bad
already been made iii this session, to run the risk of
impairing the revenue further, by making the reduc-
tion on those duties which his Right Hon. Friend
proposed ? The taxes already remitted, by the
abolition of thb duties on beer and leather, amounted
to 3,300,000/. His Right Hon. Friend (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) had told the House that he
expected that loss of revenue to be compensated by
the new duties on spirits, to the amount of 400,0001.
and on stamps to the amount of 200,000/., leaving
a total loss of revenue amounting to 2,700,000/
His Right Hon. Friend behind him now proposed
another remission of takes to the amount of
1,200,0004, looking only to the compensation to be
derived from the additional duty on spirits, which
was calculated to produce 200,0001.; thus proposing,
in reality, another reduction' of taxes to no less an
amount than 1,000,000/. His Right Hon. Friend
expressed a hope that the sum so lost to the revenue
would be made up by the duties paid on the in-
creased consumption of sugar which would follow
the reductions he proposed to make. It was an
experiment frightfully hazardous; for could the
House calculate that 500,000/. would be produced
to the revenue, when, in order to raise that sum,
there must be an increase in the consumption of
sugar amounting to a full eighth part of that which
was already consumed in the country ? But even if
that sum should be produced, there would still he an
additional deficit of half a million of revenue to
supply : so that upon the whole revenue of the year
there must be a deficit of 3,200,00('/. to be made
good upon the most favourable calculation. Now,
such being the case, would it be wise to make any
further reduction ? His Right Honourable Friend
had reminded him of the savings which the Govern-
ment could make owing to the reduction of the Four
per Cents. He wondered how his Right Hon.
Friend could have referred to that point, because it
was sure to excite in his mind a reminiscence of
which lie %%as bound to avail himself. How had
the Government been able to effect the reduction of
the Four per Cen2s. ? By the maintenance of the
public credit. It was by the manner in which it
had kept up the public funds that Government had
been able to avail itself of its credit to reduce the
rate of interest, and to diminish the annual taxation
of the country in that respect, by no less a sum
than 700,000/. It was on this very account that he
doubted the policy of incurring the risk of having
any deficiency in the revenue. If they ran the risk
of having to make up a deficiency by an issue of
Exchequer-bills or a loan from the Bank, they must
bid adieu to all further hopes of relieving the reve-
nue of the country by a reduction of the rate of in-
terest paid for the support of the public credit. He
had heard his Right Hon. Friend behind him talk
of the vacillation exhibited by his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That the
charge of vacillation should have come from that
particular quarter certainly did surprise him. For a
week past, public notice had been given by the
Right Hon. Member for Inverness that the motion
which the House would have to discuss was for a
reduction of the duty on sugar, not according to a
fixed rate of the article, but according to the quality
of the sugar. The proposal now made by his Right
Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
did not differ front the principle advanced in the
notice of motion given by the Right Hon. Mem-
ber fur Inverness, as would appear by a reference
to the terms of the notice. The second reso-
lution which the Right Hon. Gentleman had given
notice of his intention to move declared that it
was expedient to levy a duty on sugar accord-
ing to the value of the different qualities of the arti-
cle, rather than by a fixed rate. Up to half-past five
o'clock that evening, he believed that it was the in-
tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to propose a
reduction of the duty upon that principle. The
charge of inconsistency and vacillation, therefore,
came with very bad grace from the Right Hon.
Gentleman, who had abandoned his original pro-
posal and substituted a fixed rate of duty in-teal of
a duty imposed according to the value of the article.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, it should be recollected
stood in a different situation from his Right Hon.
Friend. The former acted only as an individual
Member of Parliament; the latter w►ts Chancellor of
the Exchequer. He would remind the House that
the Right lion. Gentleman had filled an important
situation in the Government of the country, and was
well acquainted with all the bearings of the subject.
If the Right Hon. Gentleman, with all his expe-
rience, found it necessary, after a week's considera-
tion, to propose resolutions not only at variance with
those of which he had originally given notice, but
directly opposed to thorn, why should he deny to
the Chancellor of the Exchequer the privilege of
changing his opinion with respect to the practical
operation of a measure which he had propounded ?
Ha did not mean to say that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had not•a good excuse for changing the na-
ture of his resolutions. The resolutions proposed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman to-night did riot agree
with those which lie moved last year. He thought
that no imputation rested with any man for changing
his course of conduct with reference to matters so
complicated. In such circumstances individuals
must be governed by communications from parties
interested in the question. He would riot enter into
any details respecting the Bill, but he saw no diffi-
culty in fixing the duty in the way proposed by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. He hoped that the
House would by its vote show a determination to
maintain the public credit, and to enable the Govern-
ment to make a further remission of taxation by the
reduction of the interest of the debt.—(Hear.)
Mr. C. GRANT, however much he respected
his Right Hon. Friend who had just sitten down,
denied his right to call upon any private Member to
adhere to resolutions which he had not proposed to
the House. His Right Hon. Friend seemed to
think that a Member had no right to change his
opinions ; but that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
might do so, and refrain to press resolutions of
which he had given notice. That was a new doc-
trine, which was perfectly consistent with the pre-
sent mode of proceeding in that House. In it was
to be found the secret of the changes which had
marked the conduct of Government this Session.
That doctrine influenced them in the cautious course
which they had pursued. His Right Hon. Friend
seemed anxious to have the honour of his company
in the course which Government was pursuing. He
wished him to

" Pursue the triumph, and partake the gale,"
in the undulating course which they were proceed-
ing in.—(A laugh.)—But be must decline to sail
in such company. His object in all that he had done
on the subject was to afford relief to the distresses
of the sufferers in this country, the West Indies and
the East Indies.

Mr. PEEL said that his Right icon. Friend had
quite mistaken him, if he supposed he cast any
imputation on him for his change of opinion. He
had merely alluded to the conduct of his Right
Hon. Friend, for the purpose of showing that even
an individual, the best informed upon the subject,
had found reason to change his opinions in a very
short time. The only point upon which perhaps
he could bring a charge against his Right Hon.
Friend was, that he had not given the Chancellor
of the Exchequer notice of his intention to bring for-
ward a new proposition to-night.
Mr. C. GRANT had so frequently discussed the
subject with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that
he thought a notice was unnecessary.
Mr. ASTELL made an observation which was
inaudible.

The Committee then divided, when the num-
bers appeared—

For: the amendment 144
Against it 182
Majority -38
On re-entering the gallery we found
Mr. BROUGHAM addressing the Committee.
He congratulated the House on the great knowledge
and acuteness which had just been displayed by so
large a portion of its Members. A large majority

had been found to express their opinion on a subject
of great peculiarity and emlyirrassment. He had
heard the proposition of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer twice stated, but he coal not succeed in
understanding it. He had applied to the left and to
the right, but he was still utterly unable to compre-
hend the subject upon which he was called to give
a vote.--(A laugh.) There were, however, 182
Members so perspicacious, so nimble of apprehen-
sion, as to be able to find their way through what
to him appeared only an inexplicable difficulty. 'I his
circumstance was to him a matter of distant admi-
ration—of extraordinary and hopeless envy; but to
the House it ought to be a matter of unceasing and
unbounded congratulation, that they were possessed
of 182 men of such sagacity, although there were
144 others who dechired themselves incapable of
comprehending a tittle of the subject.—(Laughter.)
He thotight that the proposition of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Inverness was more intelligible than that of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The latter he
could not presume to follow even at a distance, and
if he were called upon to give a vote, finding that
he could not induce the Hon. Member for South-
wark, the Member for Hertfordshire, the Member
for Taunton, and several others, to reflect upon him
any portion of the light which shone upon them, or
to direct him to a clue to guide him in the maze in
which he was involved, he must, however unwil-
lingly, vote against the resolutions of the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer.

Mr. 1-lUSKISSON denied the practicability of
carrying the proposed plan into execution. The
Chancellor of the Excheqsier contended that it
could, because henceforth all sugar would be sold at
what were called short prices instead of at long
prices. The thing was absolutely impossible. He
would tell the committee why. At present there
was a fixed duty of 275. which was to be deducted
from the long price in order to ascertain how much
the sugar sold above or below the average price.
The average price was made up each week by de-
ducting 275. from the long price. To make the
matter clear, he would suppose that the average
price this week was 255., which had been arrived at
by deducting 275. from the long price of sugar sold
in the antecedent week. It was impossible that a
knowledge of the average value of sugar could be
obtained except by deducting 275. from the long
price. This was so obvious, that he wondered at
the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on the
subject. He thought lie could show, to the satis-
faction of every man of business that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer did not understand his own
proposition.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—He could put
a very possible case to the Right lion. Gentleman,
and if his plan were capable of being put into prac-
tice, he could give him an easy answer. He would
suppose the average price this week to be 21s, and
that a lot of sugar was sold at 525. When the sale
was made the custom-house officer asked the seller
what he had sold the sugar for ? Fifty-two
shillings was the reply. The custom-house officer
deducted 275. from the 525., and found that 255.
remained as the average price. The seller told the
custom-house officer that he could not ask him to pay
a duty of 275., because the resolution of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer declared that that duty was
not to be paid unless the sugars were sold at Is.
above the average price, whereas, in the present
case, tile average price was not exceeded at all.
That was a poser to the custom-house officer. He
admitted that the statement was correct, and fixed
the duty at 25.. 6d., which left the seller it net Profit
of 265. Gd. on the transaction, so that in fact he sold
the sugar at Is. Gd. above the average. He wished
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state how this
difficulty could be avoided. There was not a man
in the House, there was not a practical man in the
customs, there was not an ingenious man in the
Cabinet, who could give him an answer upon this
point.--(Hear, and a laugh.)—The Right Hoe.
Gentleman called this an ad valorem duty. He
denied that it was so. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had mistaken his view of the measure. His opinion
of it was, that it would not give relief where it was
most wanted. It would be beneficial to the Dilauri-
tius and to Demerara, which were in-a flourishing
state, but it would be prejudicial to the old colonies.
This was proved by the value of slave labour in the
respective places. The value of a slave in Antigua
or in Barbadoes was not more than 301., while hi
the Mauritius and Demerara it was 80/. to 90/. He
would assert, front what he had this day learned
from his constituents, that if the measure were
suffered to pass, the West. India colonies would be
reduced to a state of absolute despair and utter
ruin ; and in common justice we ought to take
upon ourselves the care of those colonies, and
the duty of making a praper provision for their sup-
port. Much had been said about the intention of
Ministers to afford relief from taxation. But it ap-
peared to him that at the commencement of the
Session they had no such intention. The Noble
Lord at the head of the administration, had at first
declared that he could only reckon on a surplus of
1,500,0001.; but, a few days afterwards, the Right
Hen. Gentleman came down and proposed a remis-
sion of taxes to the amount of 3,300,0001, stating,
at the same time, that there would then be a sur-
plus of 2,000,000/. He now came forward with a
reduction of the duty on sugar,—but how was it
accompanied? Why, by an addition on corn-made
spirits, and also on rum, of Gd. per gallon, Now,
the quantity of spirits to which that augmented duty
would attach last year, was 31,390,000 gallons,
which would give an increase to the revenue of
760,000/. This was a set-off, and a very large one
too, against any diminution of the duty on sugars.
He contended, that by proceeding as Ministers now
proposed to do, they were holding out a prospect of
relief to the West India colonies, which was a mere
mockery. The agitation of these subjects had thrown
the commercial part of the community into a state
of great uncertainty and uneasiness. A commercial
paper, which he had received from the town which
he bad the honour to represent, stated, that " the
rum, the brandy, the whisky, and the gin trade are
all at a stand ; the manufacturers of tobacco and snuff
are all at a stand ; the sugar trade is also at a stand,
and there is an end to the production of bastards—
(Roars of laughter)-40,000 hogsheads of sugar
made from the molasses,—and this was what
was termed bastards,'—were formerly exported
into this country; but that was no longer
the case." In his opinion, considering the
state of the country, the present measure
ought to be abandoned. If gentlemen would
give themselves time to consider the propo-
sition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was
sure that the majority of 183 would find that they
were practically wrong, and that all the West In-
dians were likely to get in this year of promise was
an additional duty of Gd. a gallon on rum. He
certuinly would vote with the Hon. Member for
Callington against the resolution, because he thought
that it was better to do nothing than to throw
every thing_ into a state of confusion and uncer-
tainty. lie was determined when these resolutions
were brought up again to make the proposition
which he had already done; and he was quite con-
vinced that if a Bill were brought in, such opposition
would be given to it as would prevent it from
being carried for one or two months.
Mr. BARING said the best thing that Minis-
ters could do was, either to abandon the measure
altogether, or to reduce the duty indifferently on
East and West India sugar ss. per cwt.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
could not agree to such an equalization of the duties;
and as to the proposition of the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Inverness, it was quite clear that it could
not be agreed to without endangering a revenue of
1,200,000/. As to the threat held out by the
Right Hon. Member for Liverpool of impeding the
measure, he knew very well, from the experience
of the present Session, how difficult it was to carry
a measure through that House. He felt that par-
ticularly with respect to the Beer Bill; but lie
trusted that the House would do justice to itself,
and not allow any measure to be retarded unneces-
sarily.
Mr. HUSKISSON rose amidst cries of
" Spoke," and denied that be had held out any

- _

threat. He had merely stated that he. would take
that course whict), as a Member of Parliament
using his own unbiased judgment, he had a right
to pursue,—a course which he was perfectly justi-
fied in a'lopting after the division which had titre"
place.
After a few observations from Mr. BnourinAg,
the CHANCELLOR Or the EXCHEQUER, Mr. Ilusos"
SON, Lord MILTON, Sir IL PEEL, Mr. BRIGHT, and
\lr. K. DOUGLAS, upon the effect of the original
resolution, as compared with the amendment, 6
division took place—

For the resolution l6l
Against it 144
Majority: ---17

On our return to the gallery we found the Horioe
resumed, and conversation in progress between Mr.
BROUGHAM, Lord MILTON, and Col. SHlTHoliro
in the course of which the latter Hon. Membef
manifested a disposition to ab,tain from pressing hi°
,notion for the accommodation of reporters, wh►clt
stood for to-morrow, to the obstruction of the rra'
journed debate on the Court of Cbaucery, and of
the motion of the Noble Lord relative to the Cofil
Laws. However nothing definite was agreed 0"
when

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved the Order of the Day for the further C 0
siderat-on of the Report on the

SALE OF BEER BILL.

Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL objected to
proceeding wish the Bill at that late hour of the
night (one o'clock)—(Cries of " Go on,nO"
No, no.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
inoved that the amendments be now read.

The gallery was cleared for a divbiion, but none
toak place.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL rose for the purpose of
proposing two clauses to the Bill. His first clause
went to prohibit the drinking of beer on the pre
Inises where it was sold. Under the present Bill,
public-houses in the country licensed to sell beer
would deal in smuggled spirits, to the prejudice
the revenue. The Bill would tend to increase the
expense of parishes. If the Ifouse passed this Bill
it would deviate from the principle which had,
governed it in regulating public-houses. The secooLl
clause proposed was for limiting the duration of the
Act to three years, which would enable the Howe
to judge of its expediency, and whether it worked to
3 good purpose.—(The Hon. Baronet was very loy
perfectly heard.)
On the question that the clauses be brought UP'
Sir C. BURRELL spoke in favour of the clause'
as we understood, but his observations could not be
collected.

Sir J. SEBRIGHT resisted the amendments, 05
contrary to the principle of the Bill.
Mr. BRAMSTON felt it his duty to support tb'
amendments of the Hon. Member for Kent.
The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER,
observed, that the Hon. Member for Kent propose'
to prohibit the consumption of beer on the premise(
of those licensed to sell it. He (the Chancellor
the Exchequer) had seen nothing to induce him t."
ch inge his opinion of the Bill, or to abandon the
object of the Bill—a regard for the interests of the,
mass of the people. The farm. Baronet had pleaded
the cause of the publicans, who were a respectable
class of persons ; but he (the Chancellor of the
chequer) stood forward in behalf of the Government:
to protect the interest of all classes. He appeared
on behalf of the labouring population, who were 11(4
to be debarred from the benefit which the House be/
intended to confer upon them by this Bill. It be"
determined to repeal the duty, and to apply the pill
visions of the Bill to the benefit of the community►
but if the clause was agreed to, it would repeal the
duty, and still leave a restraint on the sale of the
article, which would only benefit the privileged 1113;
nufaeturers and venders. Large bodies of th_ii
community were looking anxiously for the reoP
of this measure. He had received letters froln,,.
the counties of Kent and Sussex, from gentleltel.,
of property, who were chairmen of committee
formed for promoting the passing of the Bill in ',-
present state. If they were allowed time to Peft:
don the House, they would state their concurrence
in it. The Hon. Baronet had argued that the mea',
sure would be injurious to those embarked in thot
trade; but he (the Chancellor of 'the Exchequef)
did not think that the extension of the sale of beer
would be injurious to those established in the trade''
who, if they furnished an equally good article, woulis
have an advantage in their very establishment whieij
would give them a superiority. Another argument y'
the Hon. Baronet was, that the morality of Ole
country would be affected by his Bill. But 1)0°
would the Hon. Baronet's clauses improve it ? The
prohibition of the retail brewers allowing their bee
to be drunk on their premises, had led to vexatioo
piosecutions, and all those evils which result fro
the punishment of error instead of crime. Thl,

clause would subject the retailer of beer to all rhos'
restraints imposed in the Bill, and provided for
different state of things. By rejecting this Bill, tb
House would disappoint the just expectations of th
country, that was looking for the privilege of
able to purchase and drink a wholesome beverage'
a cheap rate.
Mr. BENETT said that the first clause
easiiy be evaded by a person building a room 00
conveying the beer from an adjoining house, 01,
licence was not required. He considered the 11t,
as beneficial to the public, and one of the great°,o
blessings to the lower classes, who would be ab
to procure beer in the neighbourhood of their work''
instead of being obliged to go three or four miles f°‘
as at present, in consequence of the unwillinF„j
ness of Magistrates to license houses.---(The DO;
Member was obliged to sit down in consequence
cries of " Question.")
Sir E. DEICING was averse to the measure °1:
the ground of its pernicious effects upon the more,';'
of the people, who would have ten times greater
allurements to vice than at present. He did
think that the clauses of the Hon. Baronet militate
against, the principle of the Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP was decidedly opposed t(/
the Bill in all its forms.

Mr. BYNG approved of the principle of the Bill'
There was nothing more just than that a poor nio.°,
should be able to drink his pot of beer as cheap ra
he that could brew a butt. But the allowing eve;
hou3e in a parish to sell her, was one of the ine°_,!
violent attacks on property he had ever known 5i0.,,7
he had had a seat in that House.—(Hearo—ri,
should vote for the amendment of the Hon. Memb'
for Kent.

Sir E. KNATCHBOLL said a few words
reply, declaring that he should divide the House.
Air. MONCK spoke a few words, which w‘
totally inaudible, in consequence of the loud cries
" Question ! question ! withdraw !"
The House divided, and the numbers were—
For the clauses lOB
Aga;nat them l3B

- Majority against the clauses —SO
The Bill was then ordered to be read a third tic°
this day (Tuesday.)
On re-entering the gallery we found the oth ir
Orders of the Day in the course of being dispose,;
of, after which the House adjourned at Three o'cloco