The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-24 00:00:00

COAL TRADE:

Mr. F. LEWIS gave notice that he shoild, speedily
after the holidays, wove for leave to, bring in a 1111 to
amend the Laws relating to the Coal Trade..
RECORDER OP DUBLIN.
•21fs,, MIME sold, that in rising .to bring this ;natter
before the House, he ithouldiery shortly, call theirattention
to the incourpotibility of the two offieite now ilhed. by a
gentleman who was at ono sad the Omni time Remoter of
Dublin and Member of Parliamtut. It thi Item* of
Dublin attended his Parilamentary duties, it woo evi-
dently impossible that be should cbseharge these of Re-
corder. On a former occasion, whoa alluding. to this
question, he bad been mimed of ignorance, as he was sup.
posed to have imagined that the Reserdership was the gift
of the Government. He never imagined any such thing.
The late Recorder, Sir J. Reeve, had sat regularly every
Tuesday and Friday in every week, threughoat the year.
It was the duty also of the Recorder So preside its the Lord
Mayor's Court, and the Sheriffs' Court. , Ile bad there-
fore most important duties to perform. Now bow was it
possible for him to attend to the duties of both situations of
Judge in Dublin, am! Member of Parliament in Leaden.
The present Recorder, after having necessarily neglected
for a time his duties as Recorder, is order to fulfil those
of Member of Parliament, had been afterwerde obliged to
sit for fourteen days consecutively, and had even then been
unable to get rid of the arrears of his Court. Ile thought
the subject was one the fitll.lllll ought to inquire into. The
people paid 1,600/. a year for the perfortrunios of the
duties of the office, and the civil and criminal judicature
of the office was necessarily %Jetted if the Reeorder was
a Member of Parliament. Ile moved for retu;ns of the
number of criminals in Dublin, sad of the sittings if the
late and present Recorder of that City.
Mr. LEFROY regretted that this motion had been
made in the ehsencc of the hoe, Member.
The inutivn was granted.
KING'S PRINTER,

Mr. HUME gave notice, that, on the second Thurs.
Illy in February, he should move for a Select Committee
to inquire into the office of King's Printer in England and
Scotland.

Lord ALTIIORP &eked whether the Hon, Member
might not add the King's Printer for Ireland I
Mr. IIUME said that he thought that Ace bed been
aboliblicl—that, in fart, the Government had been before.

hand with him—but he should he happy to adopt the noble
hoar suggestion. He womld take that opportunity at
asking the Noble Lord whether it woe true, 0044 unless
the patent was challenged hefero the lot of Janitor/ in the
ensuing year, it would become tiro from further oluection ?
lie understood that the patent was at on titneu aomewhere
in the Adelphi► and had lain there for nearly n You', and
it the end of OM time would be valid,

Lord ALTIIOIII4 knew sulking *I arch It re, bit
would inquire about it.
CANADA,

Mr. lIVAIE renewed his *mire if 1401411 respecting
Canada, and !toped that the attention of 'Government
would be &rectod to that important colony.
Lord HOWICK said that the subjeet was at this too.
meta under the contideration of the Nokae Lard itt this
head of the Colonist! Departmost.
COLONIAL PENSIONN.,
Mr. HUME, in referring to the arrnjeit of Colonial
pensions, expressed his hope that the Government Would
give their deep attention to the Colony of Now South
Wales; that colony was in a most dissatisfied Matti The
Government had made frequent attempt* bo put down the
press ; no less then eleven prosecutions had been instituted
against one individual alone, and that individual had, sine*
the institution of jury trials there, obtained eon eopein•
thins against the Government Gazette. 11110 KM»
her was understood to ask whether the report was true
that the Governor had arbitrarily satpended the Judge
who bad presided on these trials ? Hs asserted, that When
the Government was obliged, as in this colotrY, almost to
suspend the price, things were not going en riglit. Ho
hoped he should have a (avowable annoyer fkorn the Noble
Lord opposite, that some clump was *boat to take place
in the Government there. If no such hope' teas held
forth, it would he neceseary, after the geese., to submit to

the House a motion m do fuStioe to theeeindividuale them
lie hoped the Government *cold interfere in favour of
Mr, lien, against whom the Government 14oaeoutions he
had mentioned had been instituted, fie had heardl too,
that with one exception—that of Archdeacon Brott's arno

—the costs of every verdict obtained ty Mr. Hall against
the Government Gaunt had beta rtid by the i►uhliu
money. The lion. Member concluded by moving far a
1l: turn of all the Colonial Petitions grunted sinco the ),ear

Lurd IIOWICK did 'not,deny that greet ozeitittneot *ad
party spirit existed Mt New Snail' Weloc Tko
stances of ogle colony darted moth horn those of no/Port
and on account of that differ nee, the% *high War,

proof of misconduct in one colony, would be no proof of
voilwooduct in another. The state of the people anti the
press in New South Wales was not to be judged of by their
vondition in, England. The Mute ought to receive any
charges frivon Mr. Hall with extreme caution, for he hart
actually ohaiged the Governot of the colony with little less
than conniving at murder. Ile bad charged an officer
having 'murdered a httoh-ranger ; hut, upon investi-
vtlon, it turned out that this bosh-ranger had been shot
reeisting the soldiers sent to capture him, after be
had attempted to commit a murder. Yet, after this fact,
totally putting an end to the charge wink the Governor,
had titers proved to the satisfaction of every body, even of
the Counsel for Mr. Hall, that person had dared to write
in a letter, a rei'eratiota of the disproved charge. These
cieetunstances had beeninst stated to the present Govern.
INIPOtt is answer to a communication on the subject, sent
cut by the late flight Bon. Secretary far the Colonies,
and he thought that molar these circumstances he was jus-
CAW in sayint, that the Howse ought to act, npnn any in..
formation of Mr. Hall with extreme caution.—(llear.)
Mr, H. TWISS fully confirmed, from his experience
its the Colonial Department, the opinion just stated by the
Nodsle Lord opposite. The Sydney Ga2ette, he admitted,
had not been altogether blameless. But if a balance were
*truck between the two parties, the greater share of
blame would be found to attach to the other Paper, which
had put forth statements to misrepresent and vilify the
Government of the Colony.
Mr. WARBURTON thought that a case of oppression
had been fully made out against the Governmeut. lie
'would not then go into the circumstances of the case; but
When the Noble Lord wee about to investigate the matter,
he (Mr. Warburton) should he glad to confer with him
respecting it.
Mr. HUME considered the Editor a very ill-used and
animated Mall. lie hoped the Noble Lord opposite would
is all the other cases which were connected with the
ace cow mentioned.
Lord HOWICK said, that what he had stated was ye-
riled by &communication whioth he had received from
Jodi* Dowling, who presided at the trial.
The snetion was then agreed to.

PENSIONS.
Mr. GUEST, in moving that there be laid before the
Honey the warrant or other document, of itite fah Jan.,
ltieg, whereby a certain pension was granted to Mrs.
narriett Arbuthnot, read to the House the particulars of
anneeroue other pensione, the details of which we could
not correctly ascertain, in ermsequence of the extremely
low buns of voice and rapid utterance with which the
tientleman spoke. Ile contended that Members of
that house obtaining pensions fur any members of their
especially for their wives, virtually vacated their
meats in that house, as much as if they had themselves
'matured them by name. lie cold not but think, that
as the reigning King had himself bat a life-interest in the
revenue* of the Crown, he could only dispose of darn for
his own life, as in law a subject can transfer to others only
the interests which he himself by law possesses. lie (Mr.
Guest) thought, therefore, that the penaions granted dur-
ing any reign ought to terminate upon the demise of the
Crown, unison 'Perliatnent should approve of their rontinu-
nnee. Ife was desirous that each particular pension in the
present list should he laid before the House, for the pur-
pose of in examinstion of the grounds upon which such
pension had been granted. It would be his duty, when
the funds for payment of those pensions would be applied
for, to divide the Holm (if he etood alone) on every pen-
idea which might not appear to have been granted for ac-
tual service.
Mr. HUME, in seconding the motion of Iris lion.
Priend, would ray, that although it was extremely unplea-
sant, in the discharge of hie duty to his constituents, to Ire
compelled to bring forward the rase of an individual, yet
there was no other mode of putting a stop to the practice
ef improperly pensioning individuals not of the taxes, but
by taking up and bringing before the Honer, individual
easte,....(Hear.)—lie concurred in the opinion expressed
by his Hon. Friend, that when the wife of a Member of
that House received a pension, it was in direct violation of
the spirit of the Act of Parliament for such a Mender to
retain his seat in the House.—(llear.)—The whole of tire
Pension List ought to be investigated by a Committee of
the Mew. The manner in which that list was accus-
tomed to be !Bled up for some reigns past, re ,v one of the
main causes of the present distressed state of the country.
'Mr. LENNARD expreesed, his opinion that tire Pen-
Moo List should in (attire be open to the isspection of
Parliament. Parliament had nos, till now, been allowed
to sae it. The consmnence wait, that there hart been
great abutter in the management of the funds of it. Ilia
had felt, and the public would feel, aurpri** and iodigna.
tits at soloing the names of many of those who were pen-
Matters upon the public. Whether it would be right now
that the late demise of the Crown had, in strictness, put
sit end to all the pensions on the Civil List, that any of
them should he discontinued, was a irestion which he left
to the eeneideration of his Majesty's Miniatere. lie ad.
milted there might be some difficulty in it. fr wart un-
willing to dos! harshly with individuals, but he thought
the principle of what had been called an equitelde vested
catered should not Ire carried too far. It vermeil to Lite
there could be no difficulty in saying that the Periaion
List ought from time to time to be laid before Par-
liament. liar! that been the ease, he was sore there
were many names now to be found on the Pension
List which would never have linen there. Ile would
not stow mention the names of any individuals
upon that Lira, but he roust express his itatislartion at
having heard that the I)tichese-(Dowager of Novelistic lout
relinquished the perreion she bad meet enjoyed. The
public would feel dinguated at seeing the marten of some
of the nohleat families in this country pensioners on the
public bounty. There was on dieinelinetion in the people
of this country to pity tine servants of the public liberally,
hat they would not bear that their money should Inc wasted
so those who had no denims upon them.
Mr. GUEST explained.
Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN Was greatly obliged to
the Non. Gentleman who hail htought the 'subject forwent.
it was trot endurable find on the pennion list the names
trf perrons who, whilst they held high 'dilutione with
enormous salaries, received pensions besides. He wished
that some Minister would stand imp and explain how it was
that Lord Bathurst, who had. been for twenty years re-
mitring a high salary for one office, should also bold another,
a mere sinecure, with a salery of 2,700/. a-year, and a second
sinecure of 1,000/. a year. lie would ask how did it
happen that there were five others, of the Noble bird's
family name at lentet, to be found in the pension list ?
There were tones individuals who had for pretty years been
in receipt of 10,0001. annually of the public motley, and
the pension list had recently received an addition of twelve
or fifteens hundred a year for the tame none.
Mr. COUR rENAY would not triune the House with
any remark upon the Pension Lint, were it not for the ex-
traordinary misrepresentations of the Hen. Aldermen who
kid jest sat down. It was time duty of the lion. Gentle-
Nan to use the proper means for rightly undemanding tile
facts of a case before tinny came forward to comment upon
it ie. that House. Ile (Mr. Courtenay) was bound to
deny that the family of Lord flathuret was to be
fogad in in the Pension List. It was true that the
Noble Lord held a sinecure office ; because, being die
sea of a Lord Chancellor at a time when the emolu.
most* of thee office were chiefly derived from the patronage
if eirosetareso. he (Lord Ilathuret) Was appointed to
one sat thee* offices at a salary of 3,0001. a year. But
the Bitharet' plasm" Alluded to by the Lion. ,Alderman
were these of the family of en efficient public servant, who
bad held au °thee of orduous duties, for which, upon hit
ret:renwat, he received no perreion hisneelf under the Act
trf Parliament, Lord Liverpoel, therefore, had obtained
peewits* for the wife of that gentleman, in conclusion,
be would ntiverve, that should the Howie resolve to hays,
the Pension List annually Settled by Parliament, such
Jeer*, would prodnee more jobbing than had ever hitherto
existed.
Mr. LENNATlDripinineil that be did not mean to re-
assumes:id that pensions fried by that Howie, but
that their amount and the circomatances under which the,"
were granted should be anbroitted fur the ronsideration of
the Howie.
Mr, AlidermarrWAlTllMAN denied that he loud been
guilty of misrepresentation, !le had may said that the
Ave rows of whom he spoke were of the Noble Lord's
"41 Oman
Mn. IKEITHITYOUGL AS thought it time duty of the
Oeverunserit to inveetigatc the Pension Lint; but he
thought 'it taught not to be suffered to go carotid that there
wee gay intention ti 1064 off the present Perreion List ;
Itenoeforth he thought it advisoble three no stuns should be
so disposed of withont the ettucturence of Perliament.
Mr. WILES waii'irf opinion that a formal entriMuniea.
lion alumni he made to that floosie whenever a potion
was granted, The puhlicity Could no Mote tend to de-
grade the person about to reeeive a pension, when such
"""ibl be bettteeeell as, te mark of the public approbation,
than ells approbation of Parlioment to the salaries of public
*l6Ol-5 canl4 degrade the dietinguielmed persons who re,
"lived those dielerita.
Afr. ROBINSQN, front the silence, with which !ham
Members had board the prßent state Of the Pension Lim
40mplained of, inferred their urriversal emidemnation of
that List. lie bad mor wish to interfere With the aikpiate
remuneration of tine public servant, but ire was caravineed
that the manner in aphid, fienitiomi had hitherto been be-
stowed, with tho aelltlitt,tentle of that !louts', Was ono Of

the causes that Parliament possessed so little of the confi-
dence of the country.
Mr.ATTWOOD could not concur in the assertion of the
Hon. Member for Totness, that the efficient public ser-
vant, to whom that lion. Member alluded, had been in-
adequately remunerated. Tide opriion of the lion.
Member was in violent collision with the opinion of the
public, and in violent collision with the opinion expressed
by the present Administration. But be would say, that if
in turning their attention to such subjects as that which
hail given rise to the present conversation, lion. Gentle-
men hoped to remedy the distresses which afflict the
country—if they entertained hopes so little warranted by
the circumstances of the times—they were men not ade-
quate to the emergencies of the present condition of the
nation. The gentlemen now in the confidence of his
Majesty had said, that if they were defeated in the
nit mum by which they proposed to remedy the dis-
tresses of the nation, they would appeal to the
peop!e, Ile trusted that they worths not do so for the
sake of obtaining in that House the votes of the re-
ptesentatives of a few boroughs. If they did so, their
temporary popularity would speedily vanish, and they
would bring upon themselves the odium of the nation.
It would be with danger to themselves and to the
country they would attempt any measure which should
not uphold the Constitution in the eyes of the people; and
if they did not soon adopt such a measure they would in.
cur a deep responsibility. bit should they adopt such a
tnea•ure as would give to this distressed anti distracted
country that prosperity which has been its condition—
should they do en or attempt to do so—if they succeeded,
they would be the benefactors of the country ; or, if they
faded, they would retire from their places with a matistae-
tion beyond any that they cm derive from temporary po-
pularity, and beyond any which has accompasied any pre-
vious Ministers into retirement.

Sir IL INGLIS said that no Government had added
bees to the Pension List than the last Administration.
Mr. fiERRIES said that he had refrained from taking
any part in the discussion, with the expectation that sone
Member of his Majesty's Government would explain what
part of the patronage of the Pension List now belonging
to the Crown it was their intention to retain, and what to
transfer to Parliament ? Indeed, he thought that it
would have been in every respect better that the House
had Postponed the discussion of the subject until it came
regularly before them. But there had been enunciated in
the course of that evening doctrines utterly inconsistent
with all that he knew of the history of the Pension List.
Men must have read little of this country if they sup-
posed that it was consistent with the existence of a
Monarchical Government to transfer to that house an
essential prerogative of the► Crown. It might, in-
deed, he made a question, whether it were wise or unwise
to leave to the Crown the bestowing of pensions for past
services. On that question he would reserve his opinions
until the (louse had learned from the Government whe-
ther the course which had hitherto been followed should
continue, or a new system he introduced. Ile would say,
however, that it did not seem advisable to leave th• ap-
pointment of pensions to a predominant party in that
!louse. lie would not contend that Pediment might
not, when the subject came before them at the beginning
of a new reign, to make such an arrangement as might
seem to them the most advantageous to the country. lie
slid not mean to offer any opinion respecting particular
pensions. For his part, he bad never been concerned in
any pension, but he would nevertheless declare that lie
thought the !louse ought to have been called on to sus-
pend its judgment respecting come of the pensions men-
tioned by the lion. Gentleman who introduced the too•
tion. Looking as he did to the dignity of the Crown and
the safety of the Conntitutiou, which rested, he believed,
upon the maintenance of the my al prerogatives, he wield
express his hope that gentlemen opposite would make it
part of their al rangement for the Civil List to leave to the
Crown, uncontrolled by Parliament, some means of die.
wising favour and rewarding merit, according to the
views of those who possessed the confidence of the Sove-
reign..•. ((fear, bear.) _ _

Mr. Lexteresun and Mr. Hume: explained.
Sir J. GRAHAM agreed with some part of what had
been said by the Hight Hon. Gentleman who had last ad-
dressed the House, that there ought to he some fund at the
uncontrolled and irresponsible disposal of the Crown. But
the amount of the specific cum so disposable should be. the
subject of discussion when the Civil List should he settled
by Parliament. But he believed that it would he found
advantageous to bring before the House the particulars of
pensions granted out of that fend. Of the salutary effect
which might result from the House thus taking cognizance
of the 'node in which, and the persons to whom interim,*
were grentedoto illustretien was presented in a ease which
bed been that evening alluded to—he meant the pension' of
the Duchess of Newcastle. Immediately after that pension
had been spoken of in the. house, it was resigned by her
Grace..-.-(Hear, hear.)—The Right lion. Gentleman had
been for a long tines Secretery to the Treasury under the
Administration of Lord Liverpool ; and in that office he
had been instrumental in the appointment of a great num-
ber of pensions, and wets therefore fully competent, either
to answer any objectionable remarks of the gentlemen
who had spoken from the other side, or to suggest to the
persons who at present were honoured with his Majesty's
confidence, the course which it might he for them most
advisable, to take respecting the settlement of the Pension
List, lint if he mistook not, the Government of which
he teas tun humble member, would take a middle course,
And adopt such measurea As Md.] at the same time secure
the honour and dignity of the Crown and the integrity of
the Constitution. mil give satisfaction to the people.—
(Hear, beer, ) The Hon. Member for Ilwoughbridge had
given to hie Majesty's Government advice, of which the
kioelness no more than the earnestness was to be mistaken,
and of which the import seemed to be that they ought not
to dissolve Parliament.--( Hear, hear.) Now that Hon.
Gentleman had seen the difficulties with which the Go.
vernment had had to struggle, and he therefore doubted
that they would keep their pledges. But lie (Sir James
Graham) would roseate the Hon. Gentleman, that
although there were, as the lien. Gentleman seemed to
intimate, come seats in that House, which had hitherto
for the most part heen occupied by gentlemen supporting
the Admioistration of the day, but which were then held
by opponente of the Government, of which he (Sir J. Gra-
ham) was .t Anther--although the place' so represented
might tweed to a us a' Parliament gentlemen who would
give his Majesty's adviser,' their support--yet the pre-
sent Ministers would keep their pledges—would press
steadily ors in their course—would "worn all indi-
rect or illegitimate influence—model bring forward
their measures on the merits alone of those mea-
sure themselves. Ile did not mean any taunt, but be
would sty that his Majesty's Ministers were resolved not
to submit tamely to defeat.._( Hear.) They would not
Ise awed by threats in that House or out of it..--(hear.)
If defeated there, they would go to the people.—(Hear.)
If defeated by the House of Commorw, in measures which
they conceived calculated to rescue the nation from peril,
they would Nike the sense of the nation itself ; sod, what.
ever might, be the national decision, he (Sir J. Graham),
for one, would lee content that he had done his duty. lie
Would, under such circumstances, meet the lion. Gentle-
men, whether as friends or enemies, sitting on this side of
the House nr on that, to discuss in fair argument any other
measures for the safety of the nation. In this present'
coarse, however, he would proceed, conscious that he was
acting with men governed by A bight and firm sense of
duty. —(Continued cheering. )

:hr a. CLERK thoogid that when the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) threatened to appeal
to the nation, should he he defeated by the Rouse, he
(Sir J. Graham) forgot that such defeat might be et.
tended by circumstances which would derive the present
Administration of the power to make such an appeal.
Colonel SIBTHORPB expressed great satiasetion at
the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir
J. Graham). Ile was cure that the speech evnuld give
repeal satisfaction to the nation.
PRINTING PETITIONS.

Mr. QUINTIN DICK moved that n petition from Sir
H. Leto, which he had withdrawn on a former evening,
should he printed.

Mr. WiI.KS reconded the motion.

Mr. WYNN said that the printing of petitions would
only hold out to individuals eneoursgament to have
pamphlets published at the expence of the nation, through
means of that House.
The Horse then divided,
For the piloting or the Petition 4
Against. it
Majority
On our return to the gallery we found,
Lord ALTHORP 00 his legs. The Noble Lord wv
psstponing the Bill on the growth of Toimcro in Ireland ;
but there too touch mansion in the House to catch
the words of the Noble Lord.

Mr. WAR BURTON said he was sorry that the Bill
was to be given up, vs from the evidence before the Gout-
Mittre there appeared to be no ground for supporting the
growth of tobacco in Ireland,
Lord ALTHORP sail the Hon. Gentleman had mivurt.
stool him « he had only postponed the Bill till after the
t eves*.
Mr. O'Govistsw Manion and Lord VALENTI A e7t-
firras,Al their intention of uppo4iug the Bill, as adverse
to the interests of Ireland.
The Oaths. Abjuration Bill was postponed to the 4th of
February.
Mr. O'GORMAN MALIGN gave nottee of tt motion)

after the, recess, concerning the Recorder's Office, in

Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON moved a return to show
the number of Magistrates in Ireland, with other parti-
culars relating to the holders of civil and military offices
in that portion of the empire.
Lord TULL AMORE opposed the motion on the ground
that as there was a change in the Chancellorship of Fe-
land jest taking place, to make such a return at present
would be extremely inconvenient.
Lord ALTHORP said, that as the motion was opposed,
it would be more regular for notice to be given of it, and
he therefore recommended the Hon. Gentleman to with-
draw it fur the present.
Mr. O'GORMAN MA.IION complained that he had
already postponed it ; and if he were to do so now it
must stand over the recess. If such opposition was to be
given to those points that tended to the benefit of Ireland
(and in saying this he was alluding also to the Bill for the
prevention of tke growth of Tobacco in Ireland), it should
no longer be a taunt that there was but one Member in
that Howie in favour of the repeal of the Union. He would
second that proposition ; and he had no doubt that before
the next Se•sion of Parliament was over, there would be
ten or twenty of the Members of !cellist(' voting in the
same way.

Lord ALTIIORP said, that he should be sorry to lose
the support of the Irish Members ; but he should be still
more sorry to lose the support of his own feelings, which
he should do were he to be deterred from relinquishing his
measures from any apprehension of losing the support of
tie Irish Members.

Lord PALMERSTON also declared, that though he
should lose the support of the Irish Members, the Govern-
ment was not to be deterred from any measures which it
conceived to be useful to the country by the threats of the
Hon. Member.
Mr. O'GORMAN MAIION denied that he bad ever
used a threat.

Mr. WAREtURTON, after reading the Hon. Gentle-
melee motion, vas disposed to support it.
Mr. RUTHYEN declared that he would resist the re-
peal of the Union.
Mr. CALLAGAN complaint I of the agitation now ex-
citing in Ireland as likely to lead to revolution.
.After a few words from Mr. LICA DE ft and Lord ToLLA-
atortx, the latter withdrew his opposition, and the motion
was agreed to.