The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-08 00:00:00

combination ? Hon. Members on the opposite eide exclaimed
War is protection 1" He sail so too, if such combinations
were to be deemed the el.-meets of peace.—(Cheers.) But
notwithstanding all the great Spottiswoode conspirators could
do, his conviction was that the spirit of liberty would, ere
lone, estabnsh on the firmest basis the rights and linerties of
frig Irish countrymen.—( Leud cheers. )
Tee Arro lt E GENE It AL was desirous, in a very
calm and dispassionate manlier, to state to the lipase the view
he took of the case under discussion. When the Hon. Mem-
ber for Limerick last night gave notice of his intention of mov-
ing for the Committee, he ventured to express his opinion that
its appointment would be altogether inexpedient, and no less
useless. The opinion he then expressed he still meinta.hed.
—( Hear.) Fur what purpose, he asked, should a Committee
enter into this investigation ? The facts of the transaction
were not at all disputed, and that being the case, when these
facts were reported by the Committee what would there be
to be done ? No one proposed to institute a criminal prose-
cution ; he believed it was neither intended nor wished by
any one—(H a-, hear)—.then, was the House to enter into
any question of breach of privilege ? Such questions, in his
humble o, inion, were as far as possible. to be avoided —( A
cheer from the Opposition b 'aches.) Honoureble Gelitlemen
opposite cheered, but let them hear him out. \Vhenever
necessary let the House practically bring them for Nerd, and
exert those privileges with which they were invested, but do
not let us mix up with them any speculative question in-
volved in debate.—( Hear, hear.) For these reason-, if the
question came to a division, which he hoped it would not, be
should vote against the proposition for a Committee.—
(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) But was it from this
to be inferred that he approved of what had been done by the
the subseriers to this fund ?—( Chem s from the Ministerial
benches.) No : he most strongly condemned in as being un-
constitutional, illegal, and as tending to most mischievious con-
sequences.—( Loud cheers.) His Hon. and Learned Friend
the Member for Exeter had not ventured to defend it. The
whole of his address, in which he displayed his usual acute-
ness and deep casuistry, amounted in the end to but a recrimi-
nation on his (the Atterney-General's) si le of the House. Tu
quoque was its starling note from the beginning to the end.
This was, in point of fact, neither more nor less than a sub-
scription against the Irish Catholic Members of that House
—( Loud cries of " No, no," from the Opposition benches.)
It was so.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) It was
an appeal to the Protestants of England against the Catho-
lics of Ireland.—( Renewed cheering.) The Right Hon.
Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) had stated, no doubt %Sill perfect sin-
cerity, that he was ignorant of this being the fact; but he (the
Attorney-General) contended that it was proved beyond all
doubt.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore it was, he asserted, that
this subscription was peculiar in its nature and most dangerous
in its consequences, for it tended to stir up religious strife,
and endanger the integrity of the empire.—( Loud cheers. )
He had narrowly consulted all the authorities bearing upon
the point, and the conclusion to which he came was this, that
these subscriptions were illegal.—( Loud end continued
cheering.) Even at an early period it was found neces-
sary to enact severe laws against combinations which had
either a direct or indirect tendency to prevent the due
course of justice ; and among other things it was expressly
specified, that unless a man had a direct interest in a suit—
(Cheers from the Opposition benches)--although he believed
the case to be founded in justice, and although he was con-
vinced thct the party whose cause he espoused had right on
his side, by the law of England he was precluded from as-
sisting hint with money.—( Hear, hear.) But there was an
exception to this general rule, to which the cheers from the
Opposition benches referred--that was the case of a man
having an interest in the suit. A man having a right of
common with several others might make a joint stock purse
with those others to carry on an invasion of the right ;
but, as far as he could find, there was nothing in
JIM law books which at all applied to the case, and, on patriis intermiscere petite
the contrary, this express question had been decided by a Verba foris malis, Canusini more bilinguis ?"
high tribunal in the country, as if it had been a case of But in fact the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had it
s
maintenance. The case in which he referred was that of hundred tongues--one for every society into which he entered'
" Wallis v. the Duke of Portland," reported in 3d Vesey, At White Conduit-house, however, having voted for the N°P
junior's, Reports. It was here held that a party not an Lord in the House of Commons, he denounced her Majesty ,a,
elector, contributing money, or assisting anywise the pro. Ministers as enemies to Reform threw them over the bridges
secution of an election petition, was guilty of maintenance. and declared himself a simple Radical. The Noble Lordd
A gentleman, named Jackson, was returned for the borough his part, came down at once from the eminence on which t.'
of Colchester, and Mr. Tierney, the unsuccessful candidate, had placed himself. The great poet of the country be.
petitioned against the return. Upon this the Duke of Port- vided life into seven ages ; but the Noble Lord proceeded' -
land employed the plaintiff, who was his attorney, to carry once to enact " the lean and slippered pantaloon ;" and
on the petition at his (the Duke of Portland's) expense. The
"His big manly voice,
petition being decided, the plaintiff Wallis, so employed, came Turning again towards childish treble, piped
against the Duke of Portland for the money he had laid out And whistled in the sound."
in the prosecution of the petition, and his evidence not being So that it was really impossible to know at any tinee wat
complete, lie filed a bill of discovery, in which he set forth the the Noble Lord would be in twenty-four hours. So discor -
fact of-his being employed by the Duke of Portland, as above ant were the materials with which the Noble Lord bad 10,,
mentioned. This bill was demurred to, on the ground that it work, that he found it difficult to keep them together. Some'
set forth what was not legal evidence. Lord Rosslyn, in giv- times the Noble Lord quarrelled with his materials, and then
ing judgment, held that the employment of the attorney Wal- again he was reconciled to them. Now for a word or two °a
lis by the Duke of Portland in the prosecution of a petition in the question before the House. The Hon. and Learned
which he had no legal interest, was a violation of the law, and Member for Dublin had received 9,000/. to indemnify biln4n4
for that reason the demurrer was allowed. This in itself was the expenses of his petitiotes He had previously iricienano
a strong case, but it was made stronger, and brought more himself to the amount of n.,000/., for which sum he soatee
home to the present by the language held by Lord Rosslyn in representation of the county of Carlow. A Committee ne
pronouncing his judgment. He said, " Put this ease—a sub- that House, however, exculpated him from the charge
scription to carry on a petition to the House—l confess I al- personal corruption, But now the Hon. and Learned e'e
ways thought there was something oft crime:in it. The case dis- tleman pretended to find fault with persons who had done nn„
closed is of this nature—an undertaking appeared between the thing more than that whica had always been the practili
plaintiff and defendant, that the letter would contribute to the ex- The thing bad been done over and over again ; and he we
pease of a petition against a Member of Parliament—that is, recollected that such had been the case when he was a meln,:e
an engagement between two parties to the injury and oppres- of Brookes's Club.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing bad "—en.
sion of a third. In short, it is maintenance, for maintenance done more than that which it was usual to do for the prose—se
is not confined to supporting suits at common law."--[The tion of felons ; and if the proposition before the House 101."
reading of this passage elicited loud cheers.] To this de- successful, he should expect to see the table leaded with Pe";
cision of Lord Rosslyn there was an appeal, and the case was tions from felons, complaining of the unconstitutional manner
brought before the House of Lords for their decision. It in which they were treated by illegal combinations._( Hear.)
was argued there, and they unanimously affirmed the jedg- Mr. BULWER, in explanation, denied that he had, in 511
ment of the Court, as well as the doctrine that Lord Rosslyn way, subscribed with reference to the Canterbury peLitiTl:,
had laid down, that subscriptions to carry on an election peti- When applied to to do so, he had answered that he might be
tion by persons who were not electors was maintenance and balloted as a member of the Committee to take the petitie::
illegal.—( Cheers.) So much with regard to general sub- into consideration, and, therefore, must decline any We"'
scribers ; but when they came to the case of Members of that ference.__( Hearnshear.)
.House being subscribers, he did not hesitate to say that the Mr. O'CONNELL said that the argument of some of the
subscription was most grossly illegal. —( Cheers.) Members speeches which had thatnight been made with a iew to opP°!o
0
of that House stood in the situation of Judges in respect to the motion of the Hon. Member for Limerick, was directly.l,
these election petitions, and the fact of their subscribing for favour of that motion. For instance, all the proceedings „nice
the prosecution or defence of petitions placed them in the had been described by the Noble Lord the Member for Derbli
situation of persons having a pecuniary interest in the case. shire, were proceedings which ought to he taken cognizaneefe
In support of this position he had more than one striking case by the House. The Noble Lord had told the House that lidn
to cite. In the case of a prosecution instituted by the So- hed been nearly the victim of a combination against him, a 2
ciety for the Suppression of Vice, the Judge, upon a sug- that, although the election was a fair one in his favour, "
gestion made to him by the prisoner's counsel, addressed the had nearly been driven from his seat. Did the Noble In°d
Jury, asking if any of them were subscribers to the fund, for make a formal complaint to that House? If he had dine so'
if they were they could by no means serve on the trial. In he ( Mr. O'Connell) would have voted for an investignun,
another case—( the King against Dolby, reported in 3d into the subject. The case afforded another instance of tbne
Barnewall and eresswell)—a similar decision was come to. conspiracy of which himself and his friends complained. The
Let the House see in what situation a Member of Parliament Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter (and none rn°„(3,
might be placed if this practice were permitted. If he had learned or more able, or even so able) made a long
subscribed in favour of a petition against a sitting Member, powerful party speech, but did not meet the question n
and if the defence of that Member were declared frivolous fore the house at all. The question was not whether.
and vexatious, lie saved so much money out of his own she lion. Member for Waterford or whether be (1
pocket. He did not believe that any Hon, Member would O'Connsll) was wrong. Did the Hon. and Lcernent
be actuated by such motives. But the law was against the Gentleman attempt to justify the practice complainechbant
practice ; the law disqualified any person from being a by the Hon. Member for Limerick ? Not at all. NY
judge or being on a jury who had the slightest pecuniary in- the Hon. end Learned Gentleman did was to quote, ir
on.
terest in the matter at issue. He rejoiced that the subject an arguaseatum ad hondoem, the course which he n Mr- °
the
had been brought before the House and the public. And he nell) had pursued on a former occasion. Now, what were 1.,
trusted that if there should be any future subscriptions for facts to which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
similar purposes, they would not be of a national or religious luded? In April, when there was no
had
when there
hro
cast. was no election, he (Mr. O'Connell) had hinted that a I ten
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT must say that he wished t.c.ion fund at such a period as that might be desirable. l'
more of the individuals who sat on the Treasury bench was lawyer enough to know that if no cause was pending, or
nin
had addressed the House on the subject. Only one Ho- in view, such a
subscription might, even according to time
nourable and Learned Gentleman had spoken from that law of maintenance, be entered into. But did the 1-10a*. an
d
bench ; and if 'what that Henourable and Learned Gentle- Learned Member for Exeter mean to say that this propentionnn
man had sail was true, it put tho case entirely out of was proceeded isith ? Was a penny actually subscribed ? 1:;f3
court. Great as necessarily was the weight of the Honour- certainly wished the matter to be carried forward, but °nee
able and Learned Gentleman's opinion, and layman as he the sitting of Parliament arrived it was determined not 10 to
( Sir F. Burdett) was, he was prepared to meet the Hon. any step until a dissolution, and the plan was abandoned art
and Learned Gentleman on this constitutional question, and a shilling was ever subscribed. Having disposed of
tbatPt to call on her Majesty's Government, if the case was en of the subject, he would
proceed to the matter imn.ediany
illegal one, to bring it under the consideration of a much before the House. To whatever remark the statementtreSro.
bt
better tribunal thin that House, in which all sorts of insane subject him, he had no hesitation in acknowledging political feelings and passions prevailed, In the first place be was engaged in a great national expeiinient.—(,geteeaer must thank the Honourable Member for Limerick, who had hear, hear.) He was endeavouring to ascertain w' ere
brought forward the question, for the mariner in which he had there was sufficient love and smpathy for Ireland it' to
done so. For instance, the Honourable Gentleman had not Legislaturemf Great Britain, toy justify those who wils'nen
!charged him ( Sir F. Burdett) with being a conspirator, and preserve the connection between the two countries. llon tee
guilty of every thing that was vile, merely because the Hon. endeavouring to ascertain whether the sense of justice on
Gentleman thought that the practice of which he complained part of England towards Ireland was such as to induce 1 'son,
was a bad practice, and that the House ought to interfere to to preserve the connection, or whether, on the otherrsonaana
put an end to it. On that last point be (Sir F. Burdett) the feelings of England towards Ireland were so adverse a
differed from the Honourable Member for Limerick. He did unsympathetic as to warrant Ireland in wishing to dissnln:rion
not think that the practice to which he had recourse was a bad connection. He had heard the Hon. Member for Lunnie nor
practice. He did not see why honest men ought not to be who famerly was asntrongly opposed as tiny man co.riurnrogb
permitted to combine to promote the law, not as men of ano- sibly be to the agitation of repeal, expressing- now atr irt-
tl.or description had combined, to defeat the law.—( Hear. ) conviction that if such a course of proceeding torsaoreid not
It was a common tiling throughout England for honest per- laud as the presept were persevered in, the Irish would
but
sons to combine to enforce the infliction of public punish- only be justified in looking for a repeal of the
„In
augh at
ment on individuals. There was not a county in which per- would be bound to take the means to obtain it. "
sons did not subscribe to a fund for the purpose of bringino us," exclaimed the Honourable and Learned Gentleman.please,
felons to trial. Even the Attorney-General, who went on the " augh at us if you :please, sneer at us if
YcjitOl rsclves
antiquated law of maintenance, ecknoWledged that it had nothing think that we arc unequal to the task of rightingesonot slip
whatever to do with independent men who subscribed for the but remember that the history cf the world . nuoa.;_, Loud.
Purpose of bringing -persons to trial who would not otherwise a period at which seven minions of individbutl
remonbehr
be prosecuted. He ( Sir F. Burdett) and those with whom be laughter from the Opposition )—aye, laugh—
had acted, had said nothing of the prayer of the
truth by a sense
petitions; they that there is no instance in the history of the world in whic
had not said whether that prayer was right or not. tie seven millions of people once roused to thecowers.)
(Sir F. Burdett) had never thought well of the borough sys- of ii.justice have ever failed to right themselvesAmatiolnut:l4 theca
tern; although the Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for Ireland has eight millions of inhabitants.
the Home Department, had in former years said that it was are opposed to us. I make
millions wiil
practically useful, and that it had placed some of the ablest but I tell you that the remaining selvte_nn.,
not
tnemselves, au
men that hal ever lived in the House of Commons. But when lack the power sooner or later
.of rig
the British Parlie-
on of obtaining 1 • justice which it seems
Was it
he (Sir F. Burdett) saw a set of priests in Ireland calling test
and laughter.) , _
men to vote for their God—when he saw the lion. and ment will riot e told them."--( Cheers
of the misery °f
Learned Member for Dublin affixing to the houses of other then that they learned for the firstftime
you a resennt of that
seven hundred years at:
teen the insignini of death, and endeavouring to influence elec- land ? Far from it ; the historyno
ofpsessi of erimleion!
:ions by a system of terrorism more horrible than had ever forded them nothing but a detailof
ePepeuv,ic. ne!e
than
existed in France in the tine of Robespierre,. he felt justified the suppression of the just rights h
with more of ingenuity
in considering whether some means might not be devised of and Learned Member for Exeter,
puttingoan end to such proceedings. Were not such procer d- candour stated that if be thoughtCeti:o Catholics of Ireland, hen for
it
million
What a„,en
ings worse than corruption Was it not notorious that assessi- scription against the Roman
d as a
nation was resorted to for the purpose of influencing the would not support it. Wee,
distinctly put forwar
Cheers.)
elections in Ireland? Had not the most dreadful and her- put forward as? Was it not
Catholics ?—( thing
Rio'inan
rible murders been perpetrated in that country for that pur- testant subscription againstpi _
d it purport to
beCaagelies
pose ? For instance, were there not the murders of Allen Take the advertisement.
..
tiro-. against Roman
election
and Mackenzie, in the county of Sligo ? Had rot one of else than a Protestant subsci
in
aid of Insnt•n„ held
the most respectable Noblemen in Ireland, a Roman Catho- It was entitled, " A subscription
At a mee 'entice--
say
don lie, a man whom he ( Sir F. Burdett) highly honoured—had petitions.," and it then w3eont, on to ,
not Lord Kenmare declared that the enlightened Roman on WedneFday, August 1837, at the Lon_
that
it
v..
hattih4.i..assweiss
it?a Protestaetr
one
Catholics of Ireland had nothing whatever to du with those house, Ludgate-hill, it was, innanim
a doubt that several Ireland
Ireland
proceedings? And a large potion even of those who sup- pears to this meeting
bth(le3elm' Imperial Parliament f
and polling
ported the objects of the lion, and Learned Member for Dub- tains lately made to
intimidation,personation,
long.
b r Tee pei Hon.
In, were co 11 e
Illpeoes. to do so by a system of tyranny more have been obtairied
lied and other unenti .
the
.3,
oppressive than was ever before inflicted upon a prostrate the, votes of disqun
o Oh !" exclaimed
how wart! .
people.—( Hear.) Ireland I He (Sir F. Burdett) had donee (Cheers from the
Opposition') " I am very hapPY to findo_
f Vie House.re.
more for Ireland than the lion: and Learned Geptlemen, with arid Learned Member,
on the other nidedd
trusty rcsolvedi
but the ing all his rent.—( Hear, and a laugh.) Put tne whole question 1 the lion. Gentlemen are
e
was at all end, Thc Hqn. a,nd Learned Member for Exeter— (Cheers from the of the lo-
Ministerial .13 nchcs.) A

.--
he shoeld be happy to eail him his- Hon. an; I the
had dem lislied the whelearguinerat of those who sueportee .
motio e • - The Hoe. Member for Lincoln had referred to his
( Sir F. Burdett's) opinions and conduct thirty-five years ago.
He must confess the folly of his youth.—(Hoer, and a laugh.)
lesigated as he was at the period to which the flonourabl
Learned Friend
Member for Lincoln alluded, by political anger, by the ruin:us
expense of two election contes.s in which he had been engaecd
with the Gete-rrenent of that tidy, reduced as nearly as Voss!
etc to beggary—( No, no)—reduced at least to what—'al-
though a philosopoer might be contented with it—to so riA-_
row an• income as only just to be able to keep a carriege and
hotees, and to maintain the position in society of a genthmaLnt
was armor than at present, after such severe contests, .de
until the payment of his debts—thirty years ago, When his big
l'id,
believing himself oppreSsed by means of the public purse, h
certainly had made the appeal to the House of Commons
which had been described by the lion. Member for Linciohres.
But what had been the consequence? TI at Sheridan 'duel!
..d
at bine andhat the House of Commons rejected his petito'
alfflost tux voce. But the lion. Member - for Lincoln bad al-
lowed dint he himself had entered his name a: a stib•criher to
..
a fun I fir a simi'ar perp ;se to that a 1 i .11 seas now
to
dernned.—(Cre sof " No, i. 0.") Certainly d., Hatiourate.s
Memb,r for Lincoln did not deny that he had ereeredte h
nameon such a s,seription list.—( He il
ir, hear.) All that he
' ( Sir F. Burdett) understood the Hon. Membe,to deny was that
he had paid any money. —( A laugh.) Perhaps the Hon;
Member's name was placed on the list as a decoy-duck !..)
others. The present question, he (Sir F. Burdett) mat.tie:
tanned. wag an Irish one. But, as a great poet of old satu
everything was d fferent in Ireland from what it was eve.l
where else. Among other things. it appeared that a patio
in Ireland was very different from a patriot everywhere Clse:
He ready was at a loss to know wheiher the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin was a Ministerial man or ti3t•
Sometimes the Hon. and Learned Gentleman wattalY-ser
Forted the treasury bench ; sometimes he was quite dumb;
and nobody knew what to make of him. At the meeting,
of Parliament, the Noble Lord on the opposite side ba"
made a sdeech which had given hint (Sir F. Burdett)
satisfaction and gratification. " Here," said he ( Sir F.
Burdett) to himself " is one of the best Conservative
speeches I ever heard." No sooner, however, was the speech
uttered than the Honourable Gentlemen who sat on the
benches below the Noble Lord fell on him with such vin- '
0
lence that he (Sir F. Burdett) could not help exe!abPitl'
with the fat • knight, " Call this • f 'endi!
you backing your rl•
A plague on such backing say I." Upon this the Noble
Lord rose, like the genii in the Arabian Tales, coming forth
as a flame from a bottle,
had
declared that be rejected the
ancient institutions
ienmstbiteurtifoonrs Foli.nsEbnugryk;ndb,ustntdhat
nothe
aa
inn
t;
abn i oci 'nit h°h
et
three powders wl.i.2h had been prescribed by his Friend the
great
; h f
it to anybody.
surrenderw oul dm
He (Sir F. Burdett) then certainly
that the time was come when all the friends of the Constitg"
tion night
unite in its support, and show the Irish Radicals
and democrats that . the sweepers of streets were not eaan,ethlie
the persons to govern the country.—( Hear, hear.) ACe.
Noble Lord, however, in consequence probably of an°t"—
squeeze, in twenty-four hours changed his Like Na- a
tone. I
hornet's tomb, shoe Noble Lord appeared to be suspended be-
tween heaven and earth, and at times it was difficult to knOr
whether he was standing on his head or his heels. But no
sooner did the breach between the Noble Lord and his friends
appear to be healed than the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin went to dine at Copenhagen or White Conduit-
house, and there he threw all his Whig friends complete',
overboard, declaring that he was not even a Whig-Rao',
but a simple Radical. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
seemed to speak •se in the Saxon language in the House 01.
house.
Commons, but in his native Milesian tongue at Copenhagem"
use. It might be asked of the Hon Learned Uell-
. and
tleman—