The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-01 00:00:00

MARINES.

Captain BOLDERO wished to ask the Government
whether there would be any objection to lay on the Table
of the House a copy of the Order in Council, dated 12th
July, 1837, which provided that no marine should receive a
pension tor a length of service under 21 years, and that two
years service ashore would reckon only as one afloat.
Mr. P. THOMSON said there was no Lord of the
Admiralty then in the House.

Captain BOLDERO would, then, give notice that he
would introduce the question on Monday next, when the
estimates would be brought forward.—( Cries of " Hear,
hear.")

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Mr. P. THOMSON rose to call the attention of
the House to the Report which had been placed in the
hands of Members, relative to Committees on Private Bu-
siness. He did not intend to address the House at Lily length.
During the last Session of Parliament, and for some days
in the present Session, the Members of the Committee
to whom this matter was referred, sat and deliberated with
the greatest possible attention upon the lists. After hav-
ing given all the attention which so important a subject
deserved, after hearing evidence and viewing the subject in all
its bearings. the Committee came to the Report that
was now submitted to Honourable Members. Any Gentle-
man who had attended to private business would, he thought,
hot object to the first resolution which he he held in his band,
namely, that the present mode of conducting the business
up stairs had not given satisfaction to the public, and that
it would be advisable to amend it.--( Hear, hear.) Two
plans were brought before that Committee, one for
the amendment of the present construction of Com-
mittees by regulating the representation of local
interests, and the other recommending that a judicial
body should be established excluding altogether local inte-
rests. • The Committee had deliberated upon that, and as
it was stated in the Report, they wet e of opinion it was
not advisable to exclude local interests altogether from
Committees, and upon that decision the report was founded.
That being the state of the decision they proceeded to
consider how they could effect a remedy, and they
had done that in this way—although it was embodied
in the resolution it would perhaps be as well that
he should shortly state it :--they proposed to allow
certain Members to be placed on the list, and the first re-
solution called upon the Speaker to take care to reduce as
much as possible the number of Members who had local
interests. They then proposed, in order to avoid too great
a reduction in the number, and to allow local interests to be
represented, where good ground was shown for such represen-
tation, that there should be a Committee of Selection, con-
sisting of a certain number o: gentlemen, who were to select
what Members should serve, avid when those Members
were selected they must consent to perform their
duties, because no Member had a right to take
upon himself the duties of a Member unless he was willing
to discharge all the duties which he was liable to be called
upon by the House to perform. He proposed that the
Members of the Selection Committee should consist of
the Chairman of the Standing Order Committee, '
the Chairman of the Committee on Petitions, and the Sub-
Chairman. Those Gentlemen he thought would be well
qualified for the duties they had tr perform—indeed, he
doubted if a better body could be found for the purposes
for which they were constituted. Having thus briefly
stated what the objects of the resolutions were, he would
conclude by placing them in the hands of the Speaker,
trusting that he would be allowed to offer any observations
in reply to the resolution of his Hon. Friend, the Member
for Kilkenny.
The SPEAKER then put the question on the first reso-
lution.

Mr. I-lUNIE said that as the first resolution proposed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman was merely preltminary he
would not object to it.
On the question bin put as to the second resolution,
proposing to carry into effect the measures contained in
the report of the Select Committee on Private Business.
Mr. HUME said that the attention of the flu..
been for a series of years directed to the tmti.-
rcet the abuses consequent upon the,
forward private Adls. He - •
NI Ol 44$ to ask OP-
71ware of the ”-

...se had
....ivour to cor-
manner of bringing
ty referred to Honourahlß
lictiter they were not all
..ecessity that exi-ted for the correction
,muses? Public opiniou hild long isince called on
..at House to erect a tribunal of a more efficient and sa-
tisfactory nature than any that at present existed for this
purpose. He was anxious to see the HJus. u.,dert:ike the
erection of sonic such tribunal, and at once grapple
boldly with this mzv>ter grievan,:o.—( Har, hear.) When
the Commiitee on Pr.v,de Bills w:!s first appo]ntcd
three years ago he had proposed that t'.ie ahuscs should be
remedied by reducing the number of the Members of these
Committees, arid taking away all local interests, 4s he felt
convinced that this was the only way in which a
Court of Judicature of this nature could be erected
which would do justice to the parties concerned
or give- satisfaction to the public. This was the sort
of tribunal that he had wished to see established three
years-:ago, and he should move resolutions embodying these
sentiments in opposition to the resolutions embodying the
recommendations of the Committee which had been pro-
posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and on these he
would take the sense of the House, and see how
far they agreed with him as to the necessity of
taking away local interests and applications as regarded this
meortant trial. The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the
House that these resolutions had been agreed to by a ma-
jority of the Committee; they certainly had been agreed to
by a majority of the Committee, the numbers having been 7
to 5 ; but one of those gentlemen who had voted in favour
of the resolutions and against the exclusion of local interests,
had the previous year expressed himself most strongly in
support of his ( Mr. H.'s) proposition, and if he had not voted
in opposition to his previously declared opinion, the numbers
would have been equal, and the decision would have been
left to the Chairman. He therefore opposed these resolu-
tions which had been proposed to the House by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, on the recommendation of a majority of
seven to five, and move the following resolutions in their
place, upon which he would take the sense of the House.
He intended to propose a resolution which five of the
Committee had adopted, namely, that Members represent-
ing local interests should be excluded from Committees
in which such interests were concerned.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) He was anxious to press that question
on the House, because he considered its Commit-
tees in the light of judicial tribunals.—( Hear, hear.)
He put it to the House whether the rule was not well
recognised, that when a case came before a Jury for its
decision each party had the right of challenge. He was
aware that Members of Parliament ought not to be
challenged, as such a course would be derogatory to
their character and dignity. If there could be any
doubt as to the impolicy of the present mode of pro_
eroding he would refer the House to the evidence taken
before the Committee. Honourable Members were
aware that there were certain persons connected with
that House who acted as agents in conducting PdPrivate
Bills through it. The Committee examined several of
the most:distinguished of these gentlemen, and
frankly and creditably unfolded the abuses eonm.., -
with Private Bills. They had shown '-
carried by canvassing Hon. mr
hunted about fr"— •

or theso

..OW

,Lea

t'ti P. r^

" a division is going to take place. For God's sake go
in and vote or I shall be defeated." The coo;
-,=ene nee we: dolt re en who had never horn
a word • of the evidence frequently turned_
the scale by their votes. Indeed, no one could
dispute the practice that had so long existed in that
House. He had before him the evidence of the Duke
ef Richmond, who stated that the proceedings before
Committees wes formerly much longer than necessary,
end that the nature of the attendance was very unsatis:
factory. On the 6th July, 1887, the House passed
several resolutions, one of which was to the effect that
Lords be exempted from serving on Committees on Pri-
vate Bills wherein they have any interest. The Noble
Duke stated that arrangement had given great satisface.
tion, cad tittle the House would see that the principle 01
keel interests lie excluded had been recognised by the
House of Lords. The Hon. Member then referred to
evidence given by Mr. Smith and Mr. Crampton, which
was to the same effect. He could read the evidence of
nine or t, ,n wititeses, to show that the practice adopted
Lerds cf excluding local interests, had given sa-
t,,saetion very generally, and their- Committees were no
longer likely to b characterised as private tribunals.
As this was a question of great importance to the
character Of the House, he hoped the House would give
is deliberete opinion upon the subject, and he begged to
!neve, in ord, r that tee opiiiion of the House might not
be douto,,,t, into it is :•xpAinv: that Members, repro-
tenting local interests, should be excluded from Com-
mittees on which such interests ere concerned." If the
Heuse agreed to that, the resolutions which be bad
proposed might be applicable to Committees formed on
that principle. It wituld eot, therefore, render the la'
hours of the Committee up to this time useless, but, on
the contrary, it would form part of the same system
which the House of Lords had adopted for regulating
their proceedings.
Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND seconded the ma"
Lion. He had had some experience with regard to the.
working of Committees of that House, and he could
assure the House that the public would feel a very
lively interest in the discussion of that evening, be,'
cause whatever might be the dissatisfaction which ha"
been expressed, in respect to those Committees, be
could assure the House that that dissatisfaction was
felt much more strongly out of doors. This subject
had been forcibly brought to his mind only yesterdaY'
by a circumstance which would illustrate what the feel-
ing of the public was. One of his old constituents, °
highly respectable person, having seen the resolution
handed about yesterday, came to him with great
anxiety, and expressed his alarm that this alteratiott
should be contemplated ; for said he, " Anxious as 1
am, and fearful as I am, of the Committees as TO,
constituted, I have much more apprehension tba'
the local interests which will be established in
the new formation of Committees will be much:
more overpowering, and we shall have less mean;
of obtaining justice at the hands of the Housed
He must say that after every attention which he ha
given to the subject, the result be had come to fa
this, that unless they were prepared to go the
length of that which was proposed by the Hon. Mem'.
her for Kilkenny, it would be far better to leave the
evil as it stood. He would endeavour in a verYi,,,t
words to explain his meaning upon this subject. jer
dislike to these Committees consisted in this, that 3
Bill was brought before a Committee, there was eri
overwhelming local interest to obtain the attendance 0
Members.—(Hear. That local interest was in 0°113',,
degree qualified by Members who were put in for a dijr,
Lance, but generally speaking, local interest was
powerful, and sometimes it acted all in one direction.'"
(Cries of Hear.)—Take for example a Railway clu.ePe
tion. The promoters of a railway were anxious to seldi,
on individual property and to pay for it, but the in ot
yidual was reluctant to part with it. That individu.s
he would suppose, as in a case that had come to his
knowledge, was a person who had no local connesi°a
with the Railroad, except by having property there;
All the Members sitting upon the Committee wen
those in the immediate district. They had embarked
themselves in the case of the Railway, and it was el;
ceedingly difficult for any individual to gain attention!.
that committee, whose object was to overpower or bit
lance that local interest. The question was whethei,
the House should adopt the plan of the Right Honour;
able Gentleman, and amend the present practice ;
whether it should adhere to the old one, In his opluic
n
if the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman was
i e
adopted, it would make matters worse. That 12.:lieal°
was to lessen the number of persons har
local interest ; but at the same time it must be rotten);
hared that, by adopting that course, they would les,ae,,e
the number of the Committee. When that numb
was lessened, the inter,q might go in one direction'
afar
so that a stringer, having no influence over those se--
bars, had very little chance of justice. If the Haizt,
adopted die proposition of the Hon. Member for ld
kenny, and excluded local interest altogether, it wat,lbe
only follow the example of the House of Lords, 311d.:1d,
course adopted with respect to juries. He slid
• therefore, strongly urge upon the House, unlesait 0.
were prepared to adopt the proposition of the 11°t.
Member for Kilkenny, to let the present practice Clighe
He was strongly, however, inclined to urge upon te
House to adopt the resolution of the Hon. Member 1:f
Kilkenny, because there was a strong feeling out
doors, that Committees of that House did not perfl
their duty properly—that they gave votes hastily, and
that those votes often worked great injustice.
The original resolution and amendment having bee°
put from.the Chair,
Netleru
hdeirrtl.sytFed RESHFIELD rose and. said as he had bee: f
alludedthatotie
to by
Housethe Hon.
would Mel
iemo
w h
ib Memberfor I 11area's
few explanations. The Hon. Member bad stoated
on the division in the Committee, the majority was °Phil
for excluding local interest, but that small as it wails t
extraordinary circumstance occurred, that one
Member who had vote:: for the exclusion of local 'a.;
rests upon former occasions had in the present set
voted exact!), the contrary way. In the last Session
Parl'eement, there was strong evidence of the incoDleere
ence of the present system. There was one plan be
the Committee for the cure of the evil. It was les
cussed at great length, but it was argued that it her
not enough to object to one plan, but that some °- of
should be brought before the Committee. The lateueseol
the period of the Session prevented that being donePt%er
they had had before them this Session the quo •
whether they should adopt the plan of exclusion of
interests altogether or not. He (Mr. F.) WI of
strongly satisfied at that time of the inconyesien%oi
the present system, that he stated he . would be rillitee
to recommend the total exclusion rather than
..c'esed
things as they were. The subject was fully disew'ofe
before the Committee, and it was considered not as it
to recommend that plan. No division however,
has been represented by the Hon. Member for
edl
kenny, took place, and the proposition remained 00
undecided. In the present Sessio
again discussed, and he for (".,e was of opinion tba`aitli
exclusion of l.ocal, intp
great inconvenieno% :ests would be attended roe
power c,:f the subject bade
and that the House had Othosi•
ng
Members of conducting the he
3 • their constituencies. Upon that grououci be
.ad voted in the majority, and upon that grou°ooo,
should now vote against the amendment of the it.
Member fir Kilkenny, if lie divided the House tettati,
Mr. AGLIONBY thought that they were b°
having once broken through the old system, t°
a, much good as possible under the new "e' the
dioueht the public were much more prejudiced by tie
;Admission of loc ;1 interests than by their exclusiouo;ight
ivas in hopes.ehowever, that some medium plan kite'
he adopted. He objected to place persons in thatte ee
ation, who had an interest in the question gale ea',
binding as a pecuniary interest. Would the House
of
of
nit that there existed a necessity for the exclusi
Meilib,rs having a direct pecuniary interest in the :ere
sion of the questions before the Committee. Therefroieo
interests which biassed the minds and feelings °viol 10
quit,! as much as a pecuniary one, and he would oo
exclude all Members on whose minds you could tristcheir
interest at all likely to bias them, so as to preveXtereeto
conning to a just decision, whether those into 0
were consequent upon their connection a.itlee'
particular locality, or upon any other causes.( the
hear.) The answer to the first question put trate
Committee to the Duke of Richmond, would ilia" lied,
his meaning on this subject. Tine Noble Duke lora)
when asked as to the practice of the House Of per/
upon this subject, that the feeling of the House of s
was so strong as to the impropriety of Peers 13111;;ioo
local interest in Private Bills, having any elseitli
with the Committees
.on them, that if a Peer 'Cif
such an interest were appointed to one of these
to re",,
mittees, he would feel himself bound in honour dot'
fuse to serve. This system had been found Icfeellel
well in the House of Peers,. and if such was &here
of that Hou,e, he would put it te, *Hon. Mel9-as dC
this House to say,whether they
cent to serve, because them;
elves or their couatioebY
had an interest in the "....i'nject. He thought the setirf
sion of Members 'lns circumstanced, tumid gi Crieso
t
faction to t't
rigShtirconsidered it vr.toetits
de country and to the House.--% •
" Question.")
it 'reg
the ROBERTHO P.
GentlemanEE L woul dt asko
eel vl
tvhbuestb.,fonerr
it,hries.eat:r'
el'asion of local interests from Committees tivvvbette"
I
Bills. In the first place, he greatly doubteue to th:
that House had a constitutional right to °l'd, 1V ,:j•
constituencies of this kingdom that they wau lass
mintti elle; .
resolution of that House, proscribe a whole Cour
their representatives from serving on Prilateoald he
—a
m(Coshteedrust.l)geroHues
pcio.eneteedneduetdtothat it rr a rose'
come t° wider' 1
lution of such a character. They would have _ perms
able difficulty in determining what constitutq.lci6eni tO
sons! interest which should be considered in
ttee 013;
prevent a Member from serving on a Comm'.
Private Bill. The Hon. Gentleman had stateader,b,aist were
questions referred to Committees on Private 15,u_le'd this
assertion
ear jtiuodni coi lf
tchtaracter, He.very much questcUt therie
e
Election Ctonnuttee a this
of a judicial character ;
hearl"an ous
st-taco, were of this nature—(Hear, ners
e certain Private Committees
lusion v • j.ttees
was a reason for the most rigid exc
CGoemn tml
tmt
ea
ens.
wHheicwhorne.hrliedr'itfj:irvi
actuated by local interests from those Lic)"__