The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-28 00:00:00

'ME SUN LONDON, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 1837.

tha: all this gas not vety fair: it might ba very proper t
make allusions to expressions allich bad dropped from him
or any one e!sc, but when they fixed with such particular as i-
dity on one sentence, when they founded so heavy a charge
upon one paragraph in a speech, it was but fair that they
should state the actual words he had made use of on the occa-
sion in question in connection with the other words of the pas-
sage. As thcy,had not done this, he must be excused for
doing it himself, although there were no productions to us hick
ho referred with such little pleasure as his own spec !hes.—( A
laugh.) The whole sentence in which this unfortunate pas
sage occurred was the following :—" At the same time, my
Lords, that I propose this measure, I am fully aware of the
effects which it will produce, and of the objections which may
be urged against it. I am deeply sensible and much concerned
at the impraKion which I feel tiya it will make. I cannot con-
ceal from myself' that it will he in the first instancy, and fir a
certain time, a 11... av-r blow and a peat discouragement to Pro-
testrilism in I eLnri, and th,t it will ba also a meat
triumph
to the adverse party. lam well aware that it is not the same
thing to destroy as never to have constituted ; to demolish as
never to have built up ; but this evil, which I trust will be but
temporary, is forced upon me by the untoward circumstances
which I have already described. I cannot avoid it, and that
which I cannot avoid I must submit to with as much patience
as I can command, and temper with as much remedy and
alteration as it is in my power to administer." Noble
Lords would do him the justice to perceive that in this
short sentence there were some very gratifying expressions.
It made a clear distinction between the immediate effects of
the measure which it proposed and its ultimate results. It dis-
tinctly stated, that though the contemplated measure might
in the first instance prove "a heavy blow and a great discou-
ragement to Protestantism in Ireland," yet that in the end it
would greatly benefit Protestantism, and it was in this view
that he had introduced it to their Lordships. He had only to
ask, that whenever any person in future did him the honour of
quoting the words referred to, they would do him also the
favour of reading the whole passage, and not dwell upon " a
heavy blow and a great discouragement," &c.-(A laugh)._
without making some mention of the qualification or modifica-
tion with which the phrase was accompanied in his speech.—
( Hear.) He would conclude by saying, that it had been to him
a matter of great concern, that a person of such eminence as
the Noble Earl who introduced the subject—a person of such
unquestionable honour and such pure principles, should have
formed such an opinion on the present state of Ireland, and
should have conceived such an apprehension and alarm on
the subject. It would be indeed great matter of concern to
the Administration, if there were any truth in the view which
the Noble Earl had taken of the subject; and if the Noble
Earl were, as he rarely was, erroneous, it would still be mat-
ter of deep concern to them, since it showed to how great an
extent the most honourable minds might be led astray by
their prejudices.—( Hear, hear.) He fully trusted that the
anticipations of the Noble Earl would be found incorrect and
unjust : he trusted that a very different state of things was to
be expected from the country in question ; and he was confi-
dent that while the Noble Lord near him remained at the head
of affairs in that country, lie would do his utmost to maintain
impartial justice, ai.d secure the prosperity and happiness
of all classes of her Majesty's subjects in that part of her domi-
nions.—( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Lord LORTON, which were not
heard in the gallery,
Lord BROUGHAM said that the recollection of tbeNoble
Duke opposite appeared to differ very strangely from his own
in reference to the occasion alluded to by the Noble Duke.
He (Lord Brougham) had not the slightest recollection of
having said, or assented to any such doctrine, that prwdial or
agrarian outrage might always be traceable to political agita-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) He had never sail any such thing : lie
was quite of a contrary opinion. The Noble Duke, doubtless,
was quite justified in reminding him (Lord Brougham) of his
support of the Coercion Bill. That Bill he had supported,
and on the ground that the duties of protection and allegiance
were reciprocal--( Hear, hear)—and that Government had no
right to call on the people fur allegiance, if it were not pre-
Fared to afford them in return its protection.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) That language he had then held ; and he should
bold it again, if is similar sad necessity were to arise.
The Noble Duke had also referred to the opinion of a Noble
relative of his, once Lord-Lieutenant of Leland, to the same
effect, that was to say. connecting agrarian outrage with poli-
tical agitation. Now, although he (Lord Brougham) enter-
tained the highest respect for the illustrious statesman in ques-
tion, than whom a better man or more enlightened friend to
his country never existed..---(llear, hear)---) et he could not
low even to that high authority on the present point. He
greatly doubted, indeed, the accuracy of the Noble Duke,
when he refereed to the Nobleman in question as a corrobora-
tive authority. The Nobleman referred to may have said that
political agitation •had in some cases, and at certain times,
Leen productive of agrarian outrage, for instance, in 1832-3,
but it was impossible for any one acquainted with the subject
seriously to describe the things as necessarily connected.—
( Hear.) As to the Coercion Bill, though he had been led by
cruel and heartbreaking necessity to support its passing, yet
he could honestly say that he had never experienced greater
delight than when altered circumstances afforded him the
oppoitunity of contributing to put an end to it. But how
was it that all this discussion had arisen out of two words in
the Queen's Speech ? lic had thought that speeches from
the throne had been held to be of no import—mere spe-
cimens of the art of putting the least possible meaning
into the greatest possible number of words, yet upon two
sm ords in a speech from the Throne had all this grave dis-
cussion, all these weighty charges been founded, backed
by a formidable apparatus of statistics. Why, even the
author of the speech himself said that he had never intended
to say a word about Ireland any more than about Guernsey,
Jersey, Alderney, or Sark—( A laugh)—in particular ; all he
wanted to express was the general domestic tranquillity which
prevailed ; and certainly, looking at the state of things which
prevailed, both in England and Ireland, at the time the Noble
Duke had handed over the government to his successors in
office, and the state of things now, he ( Lord Brougham)
thought that the term " general domestic tranquillity" would
not be entirely misapplied. He thought it would be difficult
for any Noble Lord opposite to. show any country, however
peaceable, in which offences such as those which had been
spoken of exclusively in reference to Ireland did not prevail.
One great topic with Noble Lords opposite was the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin, and this gentleman had been ad-
duced by the Noble Earl as an authority for saying that tu-
mults had been here, disturbances there, and that riot was ad-
vancing rapidly on another side, when it was stopped—not by
the police, not by the soldiery, not by the magistrates, but by a
speech from the lion. and Learned Gentleman.—( A laugh.)
Now, however disposed he ( Lord Brougham) was, from all he
had heard and witnessed of the effects of eloquence, to give
full credit to the influence of the orator, yet he must
confess that be doubted much of the magnitude of the re-
volt which could be turned aside by a few words from even
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in question.—( A laugh )
The inference which had been drawn by the Noble Earl from
the facts stated, from the picture he had drawn of the state
of the country under the administration of the present Lord
Lieutenant, appeared to him altogether erroneous. The
Noble Earl had acknowledged that the Lord Lieutenant had
done all he could to enforce• the common law ; that every
ordinary engine had been put into operation for this purpose,
by constables and magistrates • but that the common law
had been found inefficient. Did the Noble Earl go on to say
that the ordinary statute law should have been put into
operation, and had not been? No ; on the contrary, he said
that it had been tried, and found wanting. Did the Noble
Earl go back to his third parallel, 'and say that the extraor-
dinary powers of 1833 would have answered his object if
they had been put into °aeration ? No, no such thing ; for
the Noble Earl expressly said, " I can tell the Noble Lord-
Lieutenant that if he had put the extraordinary powers in
force they would have been just as ineffective as the com-
mon and es the statute law have been 4, So that if the
' Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland should at a future time re-
quire a reason for not acceding to magistrates' requisitions
for the Coercion Act enforcement, here was one afforded
by a distinguished Lord-Lieutenant of a county. It was
said that the ordinary and extraordinary powers of the
executive Government were insufficient to meet the exi-
gencies of the administration, and some new power must be
given them. Then what new extended power could be
given ? All the ordinary means had been adopted, and that
which remained gas the Arms Act, a Bill most hateful to
the people, and most justly odious, the no of which was bad
enough, but the nature of which was a stigma to all. Irishmen.
He would say to this proposition, let them do what they liked,
but let them not pass the Arms Bill. Whatever new vexati-
ous, harassing, or tormenting powers might be given to the
Magistrates, they might be received with comparative satisfac-
tion ; but he was sure that the Act to which he-referred would
from the beginning be totally inoperative, • null, and of no
effect; and he doubted whether even one stand of arms would
be found to be borne in Tipperary to carry out the measures
of the Bill. He had considered the measure, not only with
regard to Ireland, but with regard to other countries, and he
had no hesitation in pronouncing it as his decided opinion that
any new legislation in that miserable direction would be pro-
ductive of every species of hatred ; he did not mean mere
want of popularity, which the Noble Earl in the discharge of
his duties would despise; but independently of that it would
induce an utter hatred where interest and duty ought to
cherish a feeling of a far different character, and the real
ultimate gain to be obtained from it might be summed up
in a cipher.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped therefore sincerely
that no such measure would be adopted. He had no fear
of the Noble Earl again exposing himself to another charge,
that of being induced by any party or by the leader of
any party to appoint persons to situations for which they
were not at all qualified, because he knew that he
would honourably defend himself from it ; and he hoped, that
tasimtl interestbheeingobtained
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theiv3lraoi otherßrougham' sg thya,sm ) hand
ilMinisters,o, looked
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s furonnd
spromotion
nothing
ibeingthem. withheld
where it was justly due. The Noble Earl acted under her
liament the
if
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t to
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an teething
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tnehye( thing
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•
members of Associations ; he meant of legal Associations,
which the law did nreprobate, or ot
which the law did not put
down.theyweexre eluded any persons from situations merely because

Lord RODEN—Hear, hear.
Lord BBOUG HAM would be plain with his Noble Friend ;
the fact of any person being a member of the Catholic Asso-
ciation should form no bar to his being promoted, whore no
other cause existed. It would be well if it had been always
so, and if the idea had not gone abroad that the Catholic
Emancipation to
ogitvher such situations should be given
to them alone.
:t
not only the power of granting
ua
tions to c Billath olTaess,
but
The Duke of WELLINGTON, in reference to some ob-
servations which had fallen from the Noble Lord who had just
situations
sat down, would take leave to read a passage from a dispatch