The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-04 00:00:00

7--a7e
thisatThnheye
prßepr
fiirenlilnrt,
eicnani
gpnc
adetlitiv iooe,
ba
jfrsocei dlrec
mot
reodrfs tcaihot at
distinctnlvt rai
ot hadsvteor be
snimel
make
matter
art
eir,toera, onilotauhntclaged
it es
arrangement
eu.ri
nbt
for
thei
custody. He approved also of the provision for having the
whole deposited in one place. There was -a clause, however,
for the immediate appointment of a keeper under the Mas-
ter of the Rolls, to which he should object till further inquiry
was made into the subject, and until a place was provided,
where all the rem& might be brought together. It was
desirably that all these records should be under the custody
of some high official authority, and for this purpose he be-
lieved the Master of the Rolls was the most proper. The
Judges, at the same time, would be left their ancient privilege
of superintendence, and this was provided for in the Bill.
They would, however, have no greater privilege in this re-
spect than was extended to the rest of his Majesty's sub-
jects, any one of whom would be at liberty to make repre-
sentation* to the Lords of the Treasury if they saw any
ground for complaint. Though the Master of the Rolls
would be the legal custos, the House must see that it would
be necessary to have acting under him, and for whose con-
duct he would be responsible, some individual to perform the
daily duties necessary. As to compensation to the present
officers connected with the Record Department, that was
a matter which must become the subject of future inquiry
and consideration. ie•
Sir F. TRENCH entered into a defence of the Record
Commissioners, who, he said, had been most unfairly es-
persed. But their names were a sufficient defence of their
character. The Hon. and Gallant Member made some
further observations, but they were not audible.
Sir R. INGLIS said it would be necessary to clean and
to arrange the records before placing them together in one
building. With respect to the charge now made for con-
sulting or making extracts from the records, he could not
see that it was more inconsistent with principle than the
stamp duty which solicitors were obliged to pay.
Sir R. PEEL thought the preferable course would be to
wait till a place was provided for receiving the whole of the
records. The Master of the Rolls was certainly the most
proper person to fill the situation of keeper of these records.
A question had been raised as to the best place of depost,
whether in London or in Westminster. An idea had been
thrown out that some part of the new Houses of Parlia-
ment, which it was proposed to erect, might be set apart as
a depository for the public records, and he was desirous to
know what the Chancellor of the Exchequer would say in
reference to this. The estimates for the new Houses of
Parliament were, lie understood, all prepereed. Was there
anj intention of carryinc, into effect that part of Mr. Barry's
plan, for the erection of a round tower, to serve as a place
of custody for the records ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the Government had hitherto abstained from giving to the
House any intimation of the steps they might feel disposed
to take in this matter. They waited in expectation that
some Hon. Member would either give a notice on the sub-
ject, or at least would throw out some observations upon it.
The intention of Government was, in the course of the pre-
sent Session, to move for a vote of credit, preparatory to
commencing the erection of the new Houses of Parlia-
ment.—(Hear.) They meant to make further inquiry
as to the fitness of the tower, in Mr. Barry's plan,
to serve as a place of deposit for the records. Opinions
of competent judges had been pronounced highly favourable
to it, and it was believed that, when erected., the tower
would be sufficiently spacious to contain the whole of the
records. Some communication had been had with the
Master of the Rolls as to the most eligible place of deposit,
but the idea of building the proposed tower was net then
entertained. If persevered in, the effect would be, at the
same time, to complete the most beautiful part of Mr.
Barry's design, and to preserve a place of accommodation
for the public records. It seemed to be the general wish
to preserve this part of the plan.
Sir R. PEEL said he would offer no opinion whether or
not it would be desirable to apply the proposed tower to
such a purpose. This point, however, ought to be decided
upon before the Government submitted to Parliament the
proposition intimated by the Right Honourable Gentleman.
It should be well considered whether a building in the form
of a tower would be the most convenient, or would be well
adapted for the purpose of keeping the records.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the best course would be to lay upon the table such com-
munications as had been made to the Government upon the
subject. The House would then be enabled to form a more
correct opinion.
Mr. HUME thought that for the purpose of security
against fire it would be better to place the records iu a se-
parate building.
Sir R. PEEL and Mr. HUME explained.
Mr. W. WYNN was glad this motion had not been
mixed up with former controversies. All agreed that it
was fit to make some provision for the safe custody of the
records; but this Bill was premature, and would come time
enough when a building was provided. He should be glad
if the proposed towetewould supply sufficient and conve-
nient accommodation. The most fit person to be keeper
was the Master of the Rolls. So far back as the time of
Edward 1., the situation was filled by that officer. It
would, perhaps, be the more convenient course to prepare
and arrange the records in their present depositories before
sending them to the general place of reception. As to_ fees,
he agreed with his Hon. Friend that they were no more a
question of principle than the Stamp duties. After what
had fallen from the Noble Lord (T. Russell) with respect
to his intention of hereafter prop rising some additional
clauses to the Bill, he did not feel, disposed to give any
opposition to its being read a second time.
After a desultory discussion,in which Mr. Wilks, Colonel
Sibthorp, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Jervis, aod Dr. 13owring, took
a part, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Wednesday the 31st inst.
MANUFACTURE OF FOREIGN GRAIN.
The Order Of the Day having been read for resuming the
adjourned debate on the motion for the House going into
Committee to consider the expediency of allowing foreign
grain to be manufactured in this country for exportation,
Mr. ROBINSON made a few observations in support
of the motion, than which, he said, there had not been one
brought before Parliament within his recollection that was
less liable to objection. The effect of opposition to it would
be to bring the Corn-laws more and more into disrepute,
and finally to lead to their total abrogation.
Mr. P. THOMSON said he had no objection to the
proposed Committee, but till the Hon. Gentleman's con-
templated Resolution was before there, he could not say
whether it was objectionable or not. If, upon examination,
he considered the plan of the Hon. Gentleman practicable
and likely to be beneficial, it should have his support ; if,
on the contrary, he found- it to be liable to objections, of
course lie should state what his objections were.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he had been called on by some
very influential individuals in Ireland to support the mo-
tion for the Committee, and also to support any measure
that might be introduced to allow of the grinding of foreign
corn in this country and in Ireland. A few years ago Ire-
land exported corn almost exclusively—that was to say,
grain without being ground. One of the most successful of
the manufactures that had been established in Ireland was
the manufacture of grain of home growth, and the millers of
that country now sent out flour, and supplied oatmeal, to a
great extent ; mill power, too, might be increased in be-
hold aHuost to an infinite; degree. It would therefore con-
form 1-cat benefit on that country to a:.low them to grind
foreign grain, and take the miller's profit en it. He hoped
that under these circumstance the House would feel the
expediency of encouraging that branch of inciestry in Ire-
land.
Sir .T. TYRELL, after remarking that he thought the
Hon. Member for Worcester had spoken with undue se-
verity of the agricultural interests, proceeded to state that
sniuggline in malt was carried on to a great extent in Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile believed that gentlemen
who drank (IcinnesS's stout were not perhaps aware of
the manner in wlech brewers in that country got their
malt.—( Hear, hear.) Ile had it as an undoubted fact,
that brewers went into tl,e market, and too often asked no
questions as to whether the duty upon it was paid or not.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the proper mode of answering all the objections thrown out
upon this subject would be to go into Committee. He was
sure that his excellent friend Mr. Guinness ought to feel
extremely obliged to the Honourable :Welber opposite for
the puff he had given him of his pertcr ; but at the same
time he thought it due to that gentleman to lo all in his
power to remove from him the imputation which the Hon.
Member's observations seemed to convey. Whilst he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not deny that frauds
upon the revenue were carried on to a considerable extent in
Ireland, he thought he could assert that it was not on the
part nt
smalleriloefr edsetaalbelrestablishmentss
country.s inn the like that of j
fact,n r. Guinness,
Mr.
one of the deputation who waited upon him some time back
on this very subject.
Sir J. TYRRELL explained that he clic; not mean to
cast any personal imputation against Mr. Guinness in this
Guinness but
u nte by
washe
matter, whom he did not know from Adam.
Mr. HEATHCOTE was opposed to the proposition of
the Honourable Member for Worcester, as one likely to
increase the frauds and evasions which were already carried
on against the revenue by means of the bonded system. He
thought that before the Hon. Member asked the House to
agree to his motion, he should be a little more clear in his
statement of his intentions on the subject.
Sir C. B. VERE thought it best to have the Corn-laws
as they were : they had worked as well as any laws 9f the
kind could be expected to do. He was therefore opposed
to the present motion, as the first step towards that repeal
or alteration of those laws, but as he did not see any like I-
hood of successfully opposing it he should not go to a
division. He only hoped that if the House did anything
in the matter they would use necessary caution to } r !vent
frauds upon the revenue, or injury to the agriculturist. He