The Sun.
London, England, 1839-05-04 00:00:00

the term " vices," as applied to the Irish system, in the
classical sense. of its being defective.
Lord BROUGHAM said it was the apprehen on
of the controversy which had thus been commenced that
had induced him to postpone his Bill on the subj ct of
education. Be you assured, my Lords (continued the
Noble and Learned Lord, in a most impressive tone),
that if we are now to grapple with this question—if the
Church of England persists in maintaining that claim
which has been raised by the Right Reverend Prelate,
to superintend, as the national church of the country,
the education of the youth of this country—be you
assured, my Lords, that the people will not submit to
the fas;oured.Church ; and I myself will lead them in
their resistance.—(Hear, hear.) I acknowledge the
right of the Church to an establishment by the onsti.
tution of this country—l grant this title to endowment
—but there is not a shadow of a right which the
Church claims to have the exclusive controul of educa-
tion in this country—and there is no foundation for the
claim in the law or the Constitution of this coun-
• try,—(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord
went on to say, that the Government could at present
dispose as they pleased of the unconditional annual
grant of education. His opinion was, that there were
but two courses to be taken in a country where all men
did not belong to one Church, either to give secular
instruction, and secular instruction only, in public
schools, supported by public money, leaving it to each
individual parent to communicate religious instruction
to their children, and to have pastors of their own
persuasion, or that whatever religious instruction was
given should be confined to the religion of Churchmen,
and that the same religion which Churchmen's chil-
dren was instructed in, the Dissenters' children should
be instructed in also.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Those were the only two courses, unless, indeed,
it was meant to be laid down, and which surely was
adopted, that the Right Rev. Prelate would be the last
to countenance. that the money of the people should
be taken as well from the Dissenter as the Churchman's
fund, for the purpose of teaching the Churchman's chil-
dren, and excluding the Dissenter's children, and whose
parents had paid just as much, according to their means
as the parents of the other children.—(Much cheering.)
If any man living in this country, could think of enter-
taining such an idea as that, he was quite sure that he
would not be bold enough openly to state it.—(Hear,
hear.) But if any one did put forward such a propo-
sition, he knew well that it would be urged in vain else.
where, he meant in the quarter where the money must
come from,—(Hear, hear.) But it would be found,
that not only the representatives of Dissenters would
resist it, but even the Representatives of Charchmen,
would be taught to tell Parliament, that if they
meant to tax Dissenters as well as Churchmen,
to raise a fund for any purpose whatever, they must al-
low the Dissenters to participate in that fund as well as
the Churchmen, otherwise their efforts to raise such a
fund would be fruitless. As a friend of toleration, and
of civil and religious liberty, he would say that, highly
desirous as religious instruction was, it would not be
possible to obtain it ; but it would not be desirable that
it should be obtained upon any less Catholic, less libe-
ral, less just, and more contracted principles.—(Cheers.)
The Bishop of LONDON said the House would
remember that he had never brought forward such a
proposition, as the Noble and Learned Lord had de-
molished with such vigorous blows. He never stated
that the Dissenters were to be taxed to educate the
children of Churchmen, to the exclusion of the children
of Dissenters. On the contrary, he said that was not
the manner in which the children of either could be
taught, consistently with the great principles of religion.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that, at all
events, if a system was adopted upon the principle,
which evidently influenced the whole of the observations
of the Right Rev. Prelate, every Dissenter's child should
be excluded from a participation in that system.
Lord BROUGHAM said he did not state that the

Right Rev. Prelate had made the proposition he now
repudiated—he only wished to know if there was any
man bold enough to offer such a proposition. It was a
monstrous doctrine, a doctrine which he bad seen in
print, and which he was sorry to say was taken from
what had fallen from the pulpit.
. _

Lord ABINGER said if such a fund were raised,
the equitable, nay undoubtedly proper course would be
to make a grant out of that fund to each class of religious
persons, according to the amount each had contributed,
if it were possible that that could be ascertained, but he
did not see how that was practicable. For one he had
always been of opinion that any system of general
education must fail. He could not see how it was
possible that any one national system could be adopted
in a country where there were so many different views
of religion. He was afraid, therefore, that the good in-
tentions of his Noble and Learned Friend opposite, who
had given the subject the most profound attention, as
well as of the Noble Marquis, must fail, and that they
would never be able to establish one national system.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it. was not
proposed to alter the system of making the grants to the
different schools, though there was a difference proposed
in the principle of making those grants.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY certainly un-
derstood his Right Rev. Friend near him to say that he
made no objection whatever to this grant being in part
bestowed on Dissenters as well as on Churchmen. He
expressed his pleasure of what the Noble Mar-

(quis had said, which he hoped would tend to
repel the apprehensions entertained by a great
portion of the Church of England, that there were plans
on foot for enforcing a general establishment of
schools from which the teaching of any peculiar doctrines
should be excluded. If any plan of that sort were to
be submitted, he should feel it to be his duty to give it
his strongest opposition. It was evident that two sys-
tems of education could not be taught in the same
school. Either religion must be entirely excluded, or
the children at the particular school must be taught ac-
cording to some peculiar system. He did not apprehend
that the members of the Church of England imagined
there was any other system so good as their one.
The address was then agreed to.
MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN.
The Duke of WELLINGTON inquired whether
the Noble Viscount opposite had any objection to state
to the House the course which he meant to pursue on
Monday, when he should move that the message from
her Majesty should be taken into consideration.
Lord MELBOURNE said that he should move a
general address in answer to her Majesty's message, very
much to the same effect as that which was given in 1791
in answer to an address very much of the same nature
as the present, when a message was brought down from
the Crown recommending a separation of the two colo-
nies. He should not call upon the House to pledge
itself to any particular opinion, but merely to thank her
Majesty for her gracious Message, and to state that the
House would take into consideration that Message for
the purpose of adopting those measures calculated to
carry the Message into effect, and not intending, to
pledge the House to an expression of any particular
opinion on the subject.—(Hear, hear.)
The Bishop of Exeter, Viscount Duncannon, Lord
Hatherton and Lord Portman presented petitions from
various places in favour of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan of
postage, and then the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COJIMONS, 111,41- 3.

The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before four
o'clock.

Mr. RUTHERFORD, the liew Lora Advocate of Scot-
land, took the oaths and his scat for Leith.
On the motion of Mr. CAVENDISH the Dronfield
Enclosure Bill was read a third time and passed.
EASTERN COUNTIES RAILWAY BILL.
Mr. BARING informed the House that, in conse-
quence of the non-attendance of some of the Selected
Members, it was found impossible to constitute the
Committee to proceed to business this day.

Sir E. KNiTCHBULL thought that some new
mode should be adopted relative to Members attending,
as the present system seemed to be attended with
great inconvenience to Members, and expense to the
parties. It would be better to abolish the Committee
of Selection altogether than be subjected to such con-
tinual inconvenience.

Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE defended the conduct
pursued by the Committee of Selection. Every
exertion had i'ie,eg,t made by that Committee
to ensure a ivmper attendance of Members.
He hoped Ole House would pause before they abolished
the Committee of Selection, for in his apinion it would
work web the moment it became properly understood.
Before that it would not have had a fair trial. It might
be a matter for consideration whether the attendance of
the selected Members should not be made compulsory.
Mr. GREENE said it might sometimes happen that
the Committee of Selection did not give a long enough
notice to the selected Members ; but as the system be-
came better understood, that would be remedied.
Sir A. DALRYMPLE did not think the principle
of selection was a good one, and in his opinion the busi-
ness would be much better preformed under the old
system of the Speaker's List.
Lord G. SOMERSET said the suggestion thrown
out last week had not received proper consideration—
that proper notice should be given to those Members
selected, and that they should in writing inform the
Committee as early as possible, if it suited their other en-
gagements to attend. That was the only plan which
would be successful in his opinion. He would never
agree to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Hamp-
shire, to make the attendance of Members compulsory.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER said, while waiting in one
Committee which was actually sitting, be was asked to
sign a paper making it necessary to attend another at
the same time.