The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-12 00:00:00

CURRENCY.

Mr. ATTWOOD—It frequently happened that Mi-
nisters, in the course of their observations to Parliament,
alluded to and quoted from documents which were not
before the public, front which circumstance a considerable
degree of embarrassment took place. It was a practice,
therefore, which it was extremely desirous to have obvi-
ated; and to him the best way of obviating it appeared to
be to have all such documents previously laid before the
Houses of Parliament. A remarkable instance of this
kind had occurred the other night in the other House,
when the Duke of Wellington had had occasion to address
their Lordships on the currency, in the comic of which
he made various statements, none of which had bee❑
regularly placed before Parliament. It, however, ap-
peared to him that most of the Noble Duke's statements
were consecutive on the speech of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer in 1828—their respective amounts agreeing
exactly, with the exception of a difference of six million.
between the country bank notes and the sovereigns. This
was not a queation to which he should so seriously call
the attention of the House, were it not, in his opinion, the
one which, of all others, was the most important and inte-
resting to the whole country at the present crisis.—(Hear,
hear. ) He well remembered the speech of the Right
Hon. Gent. (Mr. Peel) on this subject some few years ago,
when he had assured the House that they were then
within the reach of the goal, and had only to exercise a
little firmness to arrive at it. But how did the matter
present itself now ? Was the goal arrived at ? No;
and yet the Minister still exclaimed, " Oh, trust to us;
we shall do everything that is right, and therefore
you must not expect any inquiry."—(Hear, hear.)—
The Government was committing the most fatal and most
disastrous of errors, and he besought it to take warning
while it was not yet too late, before they entailed upon it
a responsibility greater than it could bear. According to
the Duke of Wellington's statement, there was now a cir-
culation of 65 millions in the country; from which the
Premier argued that they were wrong who complained
of there being any want of money i• the country. What
was the meaning of that statement? That money was
universal. But was it so ?—(Hear, hear. )—He would
ask the landlord—did he obtain the same rent as hereto-
fore? He would ask the merchant—did he obtain the
same profits as heretofore ? He would ask the manufac-
turer—did he employ the same number of hands as here-
tofore?—(Hear, hear.)—He would not ask those o❑ the
Treasury Benches whether the same money was received
there as heretofore, because Le did not intend to deny
it ; but he would ask them—did they not find that
with the same money they had much greater power.
—(Hear, hear.)—lt was very evident to him that
the whole of the tables upon which the Duke of Wel-
lington had gone was founded in error. The Exchequer
was receiving twenty millions less than during the war—
the landeai interest twenty millions less, and the labouring
classes not half so much as at that former period ; in fact,
these latter, instead of money, were obliged to be content
to receive butter, hats, clothes, and such like commodities,
in exchange for their services ; and one instance that he
had heard of carried this so far that a labourer, having re-
ceived a leg of mutton for his labour, and having a child
to be baptised, he took his joint to the parson, and begged
him to cut off as many slices as were equivalent to the
baptismal fee.—(A laugh, and hear, hear.) If there was
really sufficient money in the country, or if Ministers
really believed that there was, why did they not propose
the appointment of a Finance Committee, who might in-
quire where it lay concealed, and devise the proper means
for putting it into circulation? But the real fact was,
that the statements of the present gold currency, as made
by the Duke of Wellington, were entirely in error. In
his (the Duke's) estimate of the amount, he took it for
granted that every sovereign that had been coined since
1824 was still afloat in the country ; in no way did he
make any allowance for the prodigious quantity that must
have found their way out of the country as exports, with
the exception of one batch of six millions, in the course
of a certain period of eighteen months, and of which the
Bank was cognizant ; but how many were there not ex-
ported of which the Bank knew nothing, and could know
nothing ? Every now and then it was the interest of the
merchant to export according to the ♦ibrations that took
place, and the only way in which those small vessels
which imported cheese, butter, eggs, &c. were paid, was
by sovereigns.—(Hear, hear.)—Let the House also con-
sider, that the number of absentees were now reckoned at
100,000 ; and did not these gentlemen take any of the
currency away with them ?—(Hear, hear.)—To these re-
ductions of the actual currency was also to be added that
most important one, caused by the melting of sovereigns.
Formerly the Birmingham and other manufacturers em-
ployed a broker, in London, to purchase gold for theta ;
but now they found the easiest way to be to melt down
sovereigns as they wanted them. ♦ll these, then, were
ways in which the gold currency must have rapidly dimi-
nished, and for which no allowance had been made in the
Duke of Wellington's statements. The Hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving for a " Return of the issue of Sove-
reigns and Half Sovereigns, from the Ist of January,
1826, to 31st of December, 1829, both inclusive; dig-
tinguishing the amount paid, the amount received, and the
balances."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the
foundation of the principal argument of the lion. Mem-
bel. rested upon the view which he took of certain state-
ments made by the Noble Duke at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government in another House, and by him (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) in the House of Commons,
for the purpose of drawing comparisons between the cir-
culation of the country at one period and another, and
fromthese comparisons, endeavouring to arrive at some
conclusion on the question, of whether or not the distress
was produced by the state of that circulation. Now, these
comparisons were formed on data of precisely
the same
character--the calculations were made on foundations pre-

oisely similar; and if mottos*, at the Hess. thilibitti &II
seemed to suppose, at one time, they were equally erre-
rp.!ous at another, and therefore the errors, as far es the
mere question of comparison went, were calculated to pm o-
duee very little effect. All that the Noble Duke contended
for, and all that he himself desired to be drawn from them,
seas to find come corresponding data, approximating in
period and circumstance' to each ether, through which
they could form a comparison as aecurate as the subject
would admit. To begin with tits first of the Hon. Mem-
'Tr's assertions :—lle says that the gold in circulation can-
not be so much as 21i millions, besanse there is no allow-
once made for the amount withdrawn from circula-
tion fur exportation or other purposes. Now the fact
is, that the whole amount of gold coined at the Mint
has been 44,100,000!., and it is in that surplus of
16,100,000 that the Noble Duke found the means of ac-
counting for the quantity removed from the circulation,
and ovhich the Hon. Member erroneously supposes was
not taken into the estimate.—(Hear, hear.)--But ha
would tell the lion. Member why it was that the Noble
Duke assumed 28,000,000 to be the amount of gold in
circulation, lie thought the Hon. Member would admit
that so long as the foreign exchanges were in favour of
this country there could be no danger of the gold in circu-
lation going abroad as an article of commerce. He was
confident, although it would not be unlike some of the
assertions of the Hon, Member, if he maintained the re-
verse, that while the exchanges were in oar favour, no
great quantity of gold would be sent abroad by the mer-
chants; and, although some few gentlemen might take a
salon quantity with them for the ordinary demand of
travel, as long as the exchanges were favourable, even that
small quantity would ultimately find its way batik again ;
for the advantages obtained by it were too obvious to ba
passed over. As to those who required their rents to b
remitted to the Continent, he need not surely say that no
gentlemen under such circumstances would ever require
those remittances to be made in English sovereigns. Bit
then a period might come when the exchanges would ba
unfavourable to this country. It was impossible, he believe 1,
to say to what extent the gold of the ssountry found its waf
abroad at ouch a time, but the calealatioas by which thee
endeavoured to make an approximation to the truth we .e
founded on this opinion—that for every sorcrign se it
abroad there was a demand made for one to replace it oa
the gold in the hands of the Bank of England. Now the
calculation he really did not think an unfair one, for as tie
gold, under such circumstance*, was collected from every
part of the country to be expended, so in proportion to
the vacuum thus created was the dersionst on the Bank to
fill it up with a fresh supply. But eeen supposing that the
draM created in such cases was greater than this sa cu'a-
tion would account for, still he thought that the diff-rence
might he naturally accounted for in another way. For as
in the event of the exchanges being in favour of th's
country, the estimate was wholly formed on the anteem of
gold which passed through the hands of the Bonk of Eng-
land, without any reference to the importations of lot n
by individuals, so, at other times, supposing the., some
which remained in the hands of individuals was exporte
in addition to that demanded from the Bank ; Ii appre-
hended they would, by taking these. two additional
circumstances into consideration, arrive at a conchs-
sion not very foreign to the truth. At all events,
he had stated the amount vested and withdrawn from the
circulation in this manner to be calculated at 16,500,0001.
and he thought that was a sum suGciently large
to justify and bear oat the assertion, that the pre-
sent circulating medium amounted to twenty-eight mil-
lions of gold. The lion. Member had found by sours
calculations of his own, that at the ronelnaien of the war
there Were 10 millions of guineas in the casuistry. Now.
it should be recollected, that for a considerable portion of
that war, the guinea was selling abroad at the pri,e of
twenty-seven shillings, and that the temptation of this
price canoed every exertion to be sled through the coil' try
for the purpose of collecting them, although the expo; ta-
tion of bullion or guineas was declared contrary to law.
Now the fact was, although the Mon. Gent. supposes the
amount to have been 10 millions, the whole quality
called in, when the sovereigns were issued, was only four
millions. He mentioned this merely because the Hem.
Gent. seemed to suppose there had been an exportation of
guineas after the coinage. Passing now to the objection of
the lion. Member, with reference to the statements on the
circulation of Bank paper, he thought it would be in the
recollection of the House, that at the time he introduced this
measure with respect to the withdrawal of the or.e pound
notes front circulation, he took that circulation to amount
to the sum of two millions aid a half. One calculation
produced 2,100,000/, ; another, 2,400,0001. ; and there-
fore lie thought the fair average would be 1,500,000/.
But the Honourable Gentleman contends that the calcu-
lations and statements of the Noble Duke, authorise:l
and supported by his, would make the amount six
millions. Now, here again he mist say that the Ho-
nourable Member completely misapprehended the nature
of the Noble Duke's statements, and did not make
sufficient allowance for the large number of notes,
which, previous to the termination of the system,
were either destroyed or withdrawn from circulation. At
the time of the passing of the law for the abolition of tile
power to issue small notes, be (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had expressed an opinion that the place of the
small notes would be supplied in the circulation by others
of a higher denomination. Of the truth of that assertion
the Hon. Member had intimated some doubt, and he
should, therefore, take leave to read a short account of the
amount of stamps issued for 5/. notes and upwards fur the
smallquarter w
notes
ot i
werech succeeded t
obe tuheed
t wi
it bannouncementeremtel
bt
egroedmthoraet
the time to which the circulation of small notes was limited
was the sth of April, 1829. Now it appeared the amount
of stamps issued for notes of V. and upwards, was, on the
sth of April, 1827 £282,000
.sth of July,
10th of Oct.
sth of Jan., 1828 ... 317,000
sth of April,
sth of July,
10th of Oct.
And now, approaching the period when the circulation of
the small notes was to terminate, he found the number of
Stamps issued on the-
-sth of Jan., 1829, to be £876,000
sth of April,

Showing, on a comparison with the two corresponding
quarters of 1825, au increase of sixteen hundred and
thirteen thousand, as compared with six hundred and
thirty-five thousand. lie thought it right to trouble the
House with this detail of figures, because the Honourable
Member had expressed considerable doubts of the accuracy
of the statements ; and because it might lead to erroneous
ideas of the amount of paper withdrawn from circulation.
There was one other subject to which he wished to advert
in a very few words. The Hon. Member had alluded to
the amount of gold which passed through the hands of
the Bank of England ; bat did the Hon. Member recol-
lect that individuals, by the new regalation■ at the Mint,
had the facility of taking bullion to be coined, and that
the amount so coined on private account was above one
million five hundred thoasand pounds in a year and a half
Having said thus much, he sheald not trespass further on
the attention of the House, bat 'exclude by observing,
that he could have wished the discussion en these subjects
had been postponed until the Hon. Member was in pos-
session of all the information he desired, as he would
then ha►e an opportunity of meeting him when he was
armed with all that knowledge which he seemed to think
was withheld. He would do the Hon. Gentleman the
justice to say, however, that though he could not help
feeling that he had been guilty of misrepresentations, he
believed them to be more the effect of want of informa-
tion, than of any intention to mislead.
Mr. A. BARING confessed that although these &emis-
sions did not produce mach at present, they tended, in his
opinion, to elicit information, and to make the Howie bet-
ter acquainted with a very complicated subject, He
thought, too, that the statements pat forth by the Noble
Duke in another place were made mash too positively and
confidently, when the nature of the question was fairly con-
sidered; for although the grounds of the calculations were
very clearly] explained by the Right Hon. Gentleman, yet
he conceived it to be quite impossible from those calcula-
tions, or from, indeed, any other, to come to an accurate
conclusion with respect to the real amoral of gold remain-
ing in the country, After observing on the statements
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, with respect to the small
notee and the stamps issued for those of he pounds, as
a thing depending on accidental cirsurmstauces, the Hon.
Member proceeded to contend, that a great quantity of
he
d
wtigt;l:laueri
sdnks:nol
darker
tsweacrdoe;cliogoafumnyr ipnmar toohtaloart
dnhtinheteohua
falsclttrocuyioscpsoiupbfedel perceiveer formerly,Eh tuva ehtearTtuyeari:tt
until
blgw.e:ckalw:sauhtb:ooefil
tawalt
eksilver,
adopted, it was for years a kind of trade is Paris and Bir-
mingham to melt clown the English sovereigns for the sake
of the very small quantity of silver which they mita tied.
While on that subject, he would say that it was well worth
the while of the Government of this country to look a little
at the expense of the Mint. In France the Mint pail
itself from the profits obtained by the blaster; but in this
country the Master and his assistants cost from one to
one hundred and fifty thousand pounds, without taking
into consideration the very line gain derived by the Master
from the coinage of silver. That coinage had been nearly
nine millions, and the profits on it. which were very con-
siderable, had gone without any inteiry into the pocket of

U

tic
'BOUM nOG Luc
but u it wag sometimes imputed to him that he made
speeches which were one half one way, and one half in the
other—(A laugh, and loud cries of Hear, hear,)—he
should say that the facility visible in the one case was per-
haps fairly balanced by the security obained by the other—
(Hear)—and on that he would rest his defence.
Mr. ATT WOOD made a brief reply, in which he stated
that he had heard nothing which induced him to change
his opinions; re-asserted his original propositions; and
maintained that both the Chancellor of the Exchequer awl
the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Government
had greatly overstated the amount of gold that had been
and that was in circulation.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained ; after which the motion was agreed to, as was
also a similar motion for a further return.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having
moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself
into a Committee to take into consideration that part of
the Lords Commissioners' Speech which related to a Sup-
ply to he granted to his Majesty.

-Mr. GORDON wished to put a question to the Right
Hon. Gent. with respect to the salaries of public officers.
lit was well known, that half-pay officers, before they re-
ceived that pay, were obliged to make an affidavit that
they possessed no civil employment whatever. What he
wanted to know was, whether, in point of fact, officers
holding their military rank, and at the same time holding
civil offices under the Crown, received their military as
well Is their civil pay ? He was aware that it might be
said that the regulation to which he alluded only extended
to half-pay. There was also what was called the unat-
tached p►ay of General Officers. There were 120 or 130
General Officers by whom this was received ; so that if all
the Ministry were composed of such officers, they would
receive their military as well as their civil emoluments.
He wished also to know what General Officers received as
Colonels ; he believed, from six to seven or eight hundred
a year. The particular question, however, which he
wished to ask was, whether, in point of fact, naval and
Military servants of the Crown did, while they re-
ceived civil allowances, also receive military and naval
allowances?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
the best mode of obtaining accurate information on the
subject would he by moving for a Return of the individuals
in question, and of the nature and amount of their receipts.
The question having been put—
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN objected, at that late hour
(it was past twelve o'clock) to any proceeding for voting
away the public money, and moved, u an Amendment, that
he House should adjourn.
Mr. HUME hoped the Right Hon. Gent. would post-
pone his motion, and bring it on at an earlier period cf the
evening.

'Die CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed,
that the only motion to be made in the Committee was the
very general one—" that a Supply be granted to his Ma-
jesty." Till that motion was carried the hands of Govern-
ment were tied, and they were unable even to lay the Esti-
mates on the Table.

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN objected to granting any
avapply until he knew what Ministers meant to do in the
way of reduction and expenditure ; and what was the ex-
position which they were prepared to make of the financial
condition of the country.
_ _ _

Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, that the only way to
hasten an exposition of the financial state of the country,
would be to agree to his Right Hon. Friend's motion.
Lord ALTHORP implored the lion. Alderman not to
persevere in an amendment which would prevent the pro-
duction of those estimates, which alone would give the
means of ascertaining what reduction might be made.
Mr. Aid. WAIT HMAN withdrew his amendment.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD was regardless of the
taunts to which he knew he would expose himself by op-
posing the motion, for he felt it his duty to take that
course. He was quite sure his Majesty had been imposed
upon, and was not aware of the extent of the distress
which existed in the country. The best mode of awaken-
ing his Majesty's mind to that fact was, in his opinion, the
constitutional one, of refusing to grant a supply for the
public service. He should, therefore, move " That the
House do now adjourn."
On this motion a division immediately took place—
For the Adjournment 9
Against it 109
Majority... --100

On our return to the Gallery we found Mr. Humr and
i%lr. Secretary PERIL engaged in a short conversation, in
which the former urged the expediency of bringing on
public business at an earlier period of the evening.
The House thin resolved itself into the Committee, in
which, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, a Resolution was agreed to, " That a
supply be granted to his Majesty."
The House having resumed, the Report was ordered to
be received to-morrow.

Mr. CALVERT brought in his Bill for the better pre-
vention of bribery and corruption in the borough of East
Retford.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a se-
cond time, and to he printed.
Lord G. LENNOX brought in a Bill to make provi-
sion for the families of persons convicted of smuggling,
and sent to serve a certain term of years in his Majesty's
Navy.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a eecond
time, and to be printed.
Adjourned at a Quarter before One o'clock this morning.