The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-10 00:00:00

PUBLIC PETITIONS.

The following members were appointed a committee on
public petitions Gregson, Mr. Bonham-Carter, Mr.
Calcutt, Mr. Cubi,t, Sir J. Fergusson, Mr. Chas Forster,
Mr. Gard, Major Gavin, Capt. Gray, Sir E. Grogan, Mr.
H. Johnstone, Mr. T. J. Miller, Mr. H. Russell, Mr. Ald.
Salomons, and Mr. 0. Stanley.
THE ADDRE ,S.—HER MAJESTY'S REPLY.

Lord PROBY (Controller of her Majesty's Household)
appeared at the bar and read the following reply of
her Majesty to the Address : " I have received
with great pleasure your loyal and dutiful address. I
have received with great satisfaction your congratulations
with respect to the marriage of the Prince of Wales. Your
expressions of attachment to my person and family are
most gratifying to my feelings. You may be assured that
I shall always be ready to co-operate with you to promote
the welfare and happiness of my people.

NOTICES OF MOTION.
EASTERN ARMY.
An HON. MEMBER gave noticethaton the 10th o. f March
he should move for a select committee on this subject.
MERCANTILE MARINE—SAILORS' HOME.
Sir H. STRACEY said, on this day week, that he should
move to introduce a bill to appropriate some of the funds
belonging to the mercantile marine to the maintenance of
Sailors' Homes not in the neighbourhood of dockyards.

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
Mr. NAPIER said that on the 24th March he should
call attention to the prevalent distress in Ireland, and nuve
resolutions thereon.

COMMERCIAL TREATIES (ITALY).
Mr. S. FITZGE RA LD, on a future day,would call the at-
tention of the house to commercial treaties, and especially
that now pending between this country and Italy.
VOLUNTEERS.
Lord HOTHAM asked the Secretary of State for War
when he would announce the intentions of Lhe Government
with reference to the recommendations of the Royal Com-
mission appointed last year to inquire into the state of the
Volunteer torte ?

Sir G. C. LE WIS replied that it was the intention of the
Government to adopt the suggestions of the Commission.
The report would be laid before the house when the army
estimates were prepared.

LICENSING AND SALE OF SPIRITUOUS
LIQUORS.
Viscount ENFIELD asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether it was intended during the
present session to introduce any bill with the view of im-
proving the present system of licensing houses for music
and dancing, and for the sale of spirits ?
Mr. LAWSON also asked the right hon. gentleman
whether he intended to propose any measure during the
present session for amending the laws by which the sale of
intoxicating liquors was permitted and regulated ?
Sir G. GREY replied that the Government had a bill in
preparation with respect to licensing, and especially houses
of entertainment for
music and sieging. He could not,
however, say when it would be introduced. The licensed
victuallers of Liverpool had framed a bill, and he wished
that measure to be discussed by the house before taking
any further action in the matter.

BANKRUPTCY.
Sir F. KELLY asked the Attorney-General whether it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government to bring in
a bill in the present session to amend the law of bankruptcy;
and whether provision would be made in any such bill for
the consolidation of the statutes of bankruptcy ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied that tho Govern-
ment was not aware that any necessisty existed for an
amendment of the law. They intended, however, to ap-
point, with the permission of Parliament, a chief judge in
bankruptcy. The attention of the Lord Chancellor had
been directed to a consolidation of the statutes, but he (the
Attorney-General) could notpromise to introduce a bill to
effect this in the present session.

AF FIRMA 11 oNs.
Sir J. TRELAWNY obtained leave to introduce a bill
to allow certain persons to raske affirmations in all cases
where an oath is or shall be required. The bill, he said,
was the same as that of last session.

IRELAND..
Sir R. PEEL obtained leave to introduce a bill to amend
the law enabling boards of t uardians to recover costs of
maintenance of illegitimate children in certain cases in
Ireland.
Mr. D. GRIFFITH aslcod the First Lord of the Trea-
sury how far the interpretation of the prerogative of the
Crown was considered by the Government to extend,
in empowering the Crown to relinquish territories, which
may have been in the de Ado possession of the British
nation, without the knowledge and consent of Parliament ?
After a few words from Mr. PEACOCK and Mr. ROEBUCK
(who asked for the papers),
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the lonian Islands
had been placed, with the consent of the Foreign
Powers, under the protection of the British
Crown, and could not be parted with without the consent
of these Powers. The Government offered, in the event
of Greece selecting a constitutional , king who was able
to protect the country from aggression, to cede
the islands to Greene. But as they had not yet accom-
plishod this, no steps had been taken to attain the
consent of the great contracting powers. The noble lord
cited cases where possessions had been ceded to the British
crown by treaty, and subsequently again ceded by treaty.
This was the case with Senegal, Minorica, Florida, and
the island of Tobago. The hon. member need be under

no apprehension with respect to Gibraltar and Malta,
as there was no intention whatever to make a present of
these possessions to any foreign power. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.)
Sir G. BOWYER blamed the Government for coming
before the house without obtaining the consent of the great
Powers.
Bills, for which leave was given, were then read a first
time, and the house adjourned shortly before six o'clock,

HOUSE OP COMMONS—Last Evening.
(Gontinued from The Sun of last evening.)
MILITIA ESTIMATES.

Sir G. LEWIS moved the following resolutions :-
1 "1. That in the opinion of this house, it is expedient
1 to discontinue the practice of appointing a select com-
mittee to prepare estimates of the charge of the disem-
bodied militia of Great Britain and Ireland; and that such
estimates be in future prepared on the responsibility of
Ministers of the Crown.
" 2. That an humble address be presented to her Majesty,
that she will be graciously pleased to give directions that
estimates of the charge of the disembodied militia in Great
Britain and Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1861, be
prepared, and laid before this house.
The object of the resolutions were to put the militia esti-
mates on the same footing as tho army estimates, and they
could thus be presented in the same way to Parliament,
who could then pronounce its veto upon them like all the
other estimates. The preparation of the estimates for the
militia was placed under the management and control of a
select committee of that house, and annually a motion was
made by that select committee to prepare those estimates.
That system was introduced soon after the passing of the
act of 1757, and it had continued without any alteration to
the present day. When that peculiar mode of preparing
these estimates were introduced, there estimates were sub-
stantially prepared by the committee. When the change
which had afterwards taken place had occurred he was not
able to say, but certainly as long as he had been a member
of the house, and he believed from a date much earlier, it
had been the practice of the Executive Government to pre-
pare the militia estimates. Those estimates had been brought
ready prepared to the committee. The committee generally
assented to them with little consideration, and, in fact, the
appointment of the committee had become a matter of form.
It was no longer a substantial exercise of power; and he
had observed that, during the last session, the appointment

of that committee had given rise to a misunderstanding.
Some members of the house thought the Government had
been taking an unusual course in referring the question to
a committee, and the subject had given rise to a discus-
sion. Ho had stated, at the time, that if it met with
the general approbation of the house, he would propose
that the preparation of the militia estimates should
be put upon the same footing as the other army esti-
mates, and that the whole should be presented to the house
simultaneously. The estimates for the yeomanry, for the
volunteers, and for the embodied militia, were already in-
cluded in the army estimates ; and the resolution which he
proposed referred exclusively to the disembodied militia.
There was also annually a small vote for Jersey and Guern-
sey militia, which was included is the general army esti-
mates. For the purpose of the Appropriation Act, the
militia vote was included in the same category as the gene-
ral vote of the army. He was not aware that any inconve-
nience arose from the present course. If any valid objection
were urged against the resolution, he 'IA no desire to press
it. But he believed it would be found more convenient that
the whole of the charges which he had named should be
laid simultaneously before Parliament. At present the
charge for the militia, which last year was £750,000, was
detached from the other military estimates. It was consi-
dered at the end of the session, at a time less convenient
for discussion, and in a manner throwing less responsibility
upon the executive Government than the general army esti-
mates. With that explanation, ho trusted the house would
pass the first resolution. He had placed the second resolu-
tion on the paper, in order that the house might see what
course he proposed to adopt ; but he would only propose the
first now; the second he would postpone until the bringing
up of the report. The right hon. gentleman concluded by
moving the resolution : "That in the opinion of this house
it is expedient to discontinue the practice of appointing a
select committee to prepare estimates of the charge of the
disembodied militia of Great Britain and Ireland; and that
such estimates be in future prepared on the responsibility of
Ministers of the Crown."

Colonel DTAITNE said the only objection to the resolution
was that it transferred the old constitutional power of the
house to the Crown, and converted the militia into a part of
the standing army.
Colonel GILPIN thought that if the resoluion was
adopted, and the vote for the militia camo before (the
house with the general army estimates, it would be impos-
sible to make any change in them. Whatever course the
right hon. gentleman ultimately adopted he trusted that
value would be got for the money.

Sir G. C. LEWIS said it was not intended: to make any
change in the organisation of the militia, but only in the
mode of bringing the estimates under the consideration of
the house. the change he proposed to make would, he
thought, be beneficial to the public service. The estimates
would have to be discussed in committee of supply, and
would be under the control of that committee.

Sir 11. WILLO UGIIBY did not see the value of the pro
posed change. Estimates could hardly be saidto be guides
to expenditure. Why was the militia expenditure omitted
from the general accounts ? If not altered, he should
bring the subject under the consideration of the house.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the practice was to include the
cost of the embodied militia, but not the disembodied mi-
litia, in the army estimates. The latter vi as charged in one
sum, and the details were kept at the War-office. He
should have no objection to furnish the details of the charge
for the disembodied militia.

General PEEL did not object to the proposed change,
but he thought all that was required might be done under
the present system.
After a few words of further explanation from Sir G, C•
LEWIS,
Colonel DICKSON suggested a postponement of the re-
solutions for further consideration.

The resolutions were, however, then agreed to.
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS
(IRELAND).

I Sir R. PEEL moved for leave to introduce a bill for the
registration of births and deaths in Ireland. He com-
plained that at present Ireland, with a population of six
millions, had no such system of registration. Such a
measure was of the greatest importance to a country in
many points, and not the ;east so with regard to sanitary
measures, either with regard to populous towns or moun-
tainous districts, as tending to circumscribe disease and
mitigate its evils. The subject had excited great attention
in Ireland since last session. The Medical Association,
which met at Limerick in December last, passed a resolu-
tion in favour of such a registration, as likely to be produc •
tive of beneficial results, and deputations from the Royal
Medical Council of Ireland, the Statistical Society, and the
Social Science Association, had waited upon him in refer-
ence to the subject, and had favoured him with their views.
They were in favour of dispensary districts, for registration
districts, and a compulsory registration of births and deaths.
It was impossible to over estimate the value of these statis-
tics in England and Scotland, and he reminded the house
that this was a measure involving no party considerations.
Ireland was almost the only civilised country where such a
registration does not exist. The want of a measure of the
kind was severely felt by the poor in Ireland, and there
were numerous instances where parties were unable to oh •
tain the property of their relatives who died intestate abroad
from want of the necessary proof of relationship. He called
upon the house to co-operate with him and remedy that de-
fect. The English Act, notwithstanding the agitation that
took place, was passed in 1836, and the Scotch bill in 1854,
but not until after a twenty years' agitation. The right
hon. baronet then contrasted the principles of the English
and Scotch Acts, observing that the latter was a more per-
fect and efficient measure than the English Act, and which
the Registrar-General for England wished to have adopted
in this country. In Scotland registration of births was
compulsory. In England it was permissive, and the result
was, that Scotland possessed a more perfect registration
than England. In the former country the six yea's' ave-
rage of births gave 347 in every 10,000, and in England
343 in every 10,000. Having detailed the other points of
difference, the right hon. baronet said the principal point
to be considered was the machinery to be adopted, the
size of the districts, and the cost. Last year he proposed a
similar measure. It had originally been proposed by the
noble lord the member for Cockermouth, and by it it was
proposed to make the constabulary the registrars, but it did
..
not meet with the approbation of the house; and he has
come to the conclusion, after further consideration of the
subject, that it would be unwise to place the extra duty of
registrars upon that body. (Hear, hear.) He.
.believed it
would be impossible to pass a measure containing such a
provision, and he was convinced of the impossibility of its
efficient working in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) By the present
bill, it was proposed to make the poor-law unions, as in
England, the area for registration; the medical officers of
the unions and the dispensary doctors to be the registrars,
and the clerks of unions the superintending registrars. The
average population of each registration district would be
7,400. There were 163 unions in Ireland, 718 dispensary
districts, and 777 dispensary doctors. The registrar would
receive Is. upon each entry, and the superintending regis-
trar 2d ; while the expense of the scheme, which would be
covered by a sum of £116,000, was to be thrown upon the
rates. That was in accordance with the English plan. It
was proposed to raise the salary of the Registrar-General to
the amount of £l,OOO a year; in England the same officer
received £1,200 a year. Registration would be couPaul. 8.7
in all cases, and in that way they avoided the principal
id
blot
on the English system; but the medical officers would
to.
be subjected to a penalty for the omission
Lord NAAS could not congratulatehis register.
Lord Mend
fur giving effect
on the machinery which he hod
eselectedsthat had been brought
to his proposal. Of all the sch
funk
of registration into the
forward, that of tbrownig t.hee
verywor
worst. (" Oh I" from
hands of the doctors was tn
Dr. Brady.) At any
rate, the selection of registrars ought
not to be limited to the
dispensary
doctors.
Mr.
BRADY believed that, without the doctors, it
impossible to
world be entirely carry out any system of
• tion of births and deaths,revue and that none was so fit
as they to be entrusted with the work.
Mr. MAGUIRE congratulated the right hon. baronet
on having got rid of the police as registiars. To be useful
the bill must be popular, and it never would have been po-
pular if the important (Wise of registration had been eon.