The Sun.
London, England, 1839-05-08 00:00:00

would have the same power to arrest the onward
march of the Tories, which had been- resorted to for
bad purposes in 1832, whereas by remaining in London
they were unable to take any decisive steps to arrest the
progress of that bloody faction.—(Hear, and cheers.)
They were not now to balance what the Whigs had
done, but they were to take into account what
Tories would do. They might rely upon it
that their first assault would be upon that
Convention. He was glad to find that the arrest of
Mr. Vincent had excited much interest in the minds of
the Delegates. He had no objection to take upon him-
self the words which had been unfairly ascribed to him,
of seeking the safety of the members of the Conven-
tion. Their safety was of the greatest importance, be-
cause they were the great point to which an oppressed
and insulted people looked for protection and support,
and without whom they would fall into disorder. The
safety of the Convention, therefore, was absolutely ne-
cessary, because it involved the safety of the people,
and he would rather see the Convention attacked indi-
vidually or collectively than the people. If they went
to Birmingham they would rouse up all that slumbering
feeling, the absence of which had been urged by Mr.
Carpenter and Dr. Fletcher, and if 150 or 200,000 men
were likely to assemble on Whit-Monday, it would be
augmented by their presence to upwards of a quarter
of a million ; on the contrary, if they remained in
London, they would be doing nothing but becoming
a prey to the Tories, who would thereby gratify their
antipathy to all popular measures. He hoped the
Secretary would bear witness, when his turn came,
to the answer Mr. Attwood gave them with respect
to the presentation of the petition. His objection to
one of their principles was, that it would destroy the
ascendancy which Great Britain had gained over Ire-

land for 1,000 years, and give to that country an equal
share in the representation. Mr. Attwood had been well
answered by their Secretary and Mr. Craig, that there
was as much of Irish as of English feeling in their prin-
ciples, and that they would not allow him to take charge
of their petition if he was embued with such feelings.
He had no objection to have his resolution accompanied
with an amendment or addition that they should return
to London on the day the petition was presented.
Having roused up the feelings of the people of Birming-
ham and the provinces, he had no objection to return to
London, and witness the further progress of the petition.
They must be perfectly aware that at the present ino-
merit the public mind was altogether at sea—they must
be perfectly aware that they were the only representa-
tive body sitting in the state. They might reasonably
expect that between the present day and Monday there
would be some move following up the arrest of Mr. Vin-
cent—the Whigs of the middle class would join the
Tories of the middle class, and no matter what name
they acted under, it would still be the rich oppressor
against the poor oppressed.—(Hear, hear.) They had
a distinct duty to diselierge,.—they should stand firm
together, turning neither to the right nor the left.—
(Loud cheers.) If the Tories came into power, it might
be presumed that they would declare war against the
people. He (Mr. O'C.) could only say that he had
been with the Convention from the beginning, and he
had no hesitation in stating that the first shot fired
against the people would be a declaration of war against
them, and then he should be ready to hazard his
life upon the issue.—( Loud cheers.) He trusted
the Convention would look upon its safety
as of the first importance. Nothing would be done for
them by the Whigs—nothing could be done for them
by the Tonics. Ireland would he, ere long, in a state
of insurrection, and the troops they were now taking
over would be sent back again :
" The King of France, with twenty thousand men,
Marched up the hill, and then marched down again."
(Hear, and cheers ) Another movement on the part
of the Gosernnient was the introduction of a rural
police into the provinces, and there was no doubt that
if the Tories came into power they would have an
invoice of foreign troops at the same time. All these, a
united people could be prepared to receive and resist,
provided they only hold fastly their principles, and if
war came, he (Mr. O'Connor) would be ready to take
his place at the head of the people.—( Cheers.) All
that could be done in Birmingham, for the post-
ponement of the petition was absolutely necessary. if
they presented it on Monday next its moral power
would be destroyed—if it was held over Ibr a little time
it would be looked upon as an anti-Tory petition, and
instead of two or three members voting in its favour,
they would have 100 or Liio ready to fight for the
honour of presenting it. This he would say, that no
Minister would be on a bed of roses—that no Admi-
nistration could possibly hold the reins of Government
in that country, who would reject the prayer of one
and a half or two millions of men.--(Cheers.) He
trusted they would now see that there were ample
reasons for removing to Birmingham—they had dis-
charged the duty that had been imposed on them in
London, and when they pledged themselves to return
once more to perfect what had . been left undone, he
trusted there would be no objection to his motion. (Mr.
O'Connor •concluded amidst loud and general cheering,
by moving his resolution.)
Dr. TAYLOR had much pleasure in seconding it, and
ha would have done so with more pleasure if it had been
brought forward yesterday. 'What had since occurred,
however, had not altered his opinion. The present was
not a time for personalities and squabbling, and what-
ever might have been his feelings yesterday, to-day he
was only anxious to carry out the objects of the Con-
vention. He hail lately spent three weeks in Birming-
ham
and the neighbouring districts ; and he would say,
that while the Convention had sent missioseries to Scot-
land and Wales, they appeared to have forgotten that
there was a population nearer home equal to the whole
of Scotland, which they had never attempted to
arouse. Instead of being stoned out of one
town and. hissed out of another, he (Dr. Taylor)
had been every where received wits the greatest
enthusiasm. Instead of opposition he bad found a vast
mass of able-bodied men, workers in the mines, and
the best set of men they possibly could get in case
danger was near, all Radically inclined—all anxious
for a movement to obtain the rights which had been
unjustly withheld from them, but ignorant of the means
of doing so. That was one of his motives for second-
ing the motion of Mr. O'Connor. Another reason
why he was anxious to go to Birmingham was because
there was a good deal of division among the Radicals
of that district. Nothing but the greater power of the
Convention, representing the great bulk of the working
classes, would put an end to these minor differences.
A third reason was, that in London their task was
done ; if they sat there longer they sat without the
authority of their constituents, who had merely sanc-
tioned their meeting in London till the petition of the
people was presente.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared to
him that if any outbreak took place in the manufac-
turing districts, and that they were on the spot, the
Privy Council might find it expedient to apply to the
Convention to allay the troubled waters, and he was
satisfied they would do much more to effect that than
the House of Commons and the Privy Council put
together. They had been now six months agitating in
London, and much time had been spent in adjusting
the differences between two parties that had sprung
up among the people. In the event of a dis-
solution of Parliament he thought it was of great
importance that they should be in London—indeed he
considered it almost essential to the safety of the nation
that they should be there at that time. If the Con-
vention was sitting in Birmingham it would be sur-
rounded by a power which no Government would dare
to break through, unless they gave them a handle by
breaking the laws. He had that morning witnessed a
most unconstitutional act in the arrest of Mr. Vincent,
one of their Members.—( Hear, hear.) They prevented
not the Convention, not his friends, from seeing him,
but they prevented Mr. Frost from seeing him least Lis
information and matured judgment might be useful to
that young man, in meeting the inquisitorial examina-
tion of the police myrmidons.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear, bear.") They knew not how soon they
might be arrested themselves, but he believed there
was not one man there who cared how soon that might
come to pass. (Vehement cheering.) It was important
however, that the country should not be left without
its leaders, and on these grounds, he would most strenu-
ously support the proposition of Mr. O'Connor. (Loud
cheers.)
Mr. Burs begged to ask whether they would be
able to settle the differences between the two parties in

Birmingham, if they went there.
Dr. TAYLOR from his heart and soul believed they
would. (Cheers.) He had been in communication
with the leading men there, and he had no hesitation in
answering in the affirmative.
Mr. B. O'BRIEN cordially supported the motion.
That further arrests would take place, he had
not the slightest doubt, and he would now mention what
he had not thought worth his while to allude to before,
that depositions had been taken against him at Man-
chester. He had been asked by many parties what
steps he should take, but he had treated the whole
matter with the most thorough contempt.—(Hear,
hear.) He would be glad to be taken up, and the
sooner it was done the better ; but he should rather
be taken up in London than in Birmingham, because
if it were in the latter place it was likely there would
be some little noise ; but in London nothing of the kind
could occur. If they remained in London, he was sat-
tisfied other arrests would take place, but if they
removed to Birmingham, he had no hesitation in saying,
that the arrests would be at an end.—(Cheers.) There
they would have half a million of men ripe and ready—
men accustomed to make guns and to wield the ham-
mer, and in toe midst of men of that description, no
Government would dare to molest them. He hOped
if he were in rested, he would have an opportunity of
teliing:tliem that they were more guilty than the people
they were astiaiiing, and by and by, it might be the
turn of the Convention to take u,).—(Cheers.) It
appeared to him that their business in London was
ended.
Mr. DON ALDSON also supported the motion of
Mr. O'Connor.
Mr. HARNEY said the time was come when they
all oeght to be fricedi, and to matter what might I
Live been heretofore C; d:fferenees and bickering;,

they were now bound to unite against the common

enemy.—(Hear, hear.) He had occasion, more than
any one member, for indulging in personal complaint,
for no man was ever so much misrepresented as well
by his enemies as the members of the Conven-
ton ; but yet he was now determined to sink
all personality in his wish to assist the cause which he
was sure would not now be defeated.—(Hear, hear.)
He would beseech them to come forward this day, and
show by their unanimous adoption of the resolution that
they were determined to go on untired and firm.
Mr. DUNCAN supported the motion, and thought the
midland counties ought to have for a short time the
support of the Convention. He would rather the
motion of Mr. O'Connor had been for to-morrow than
the 13th.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped, however, the
London members who had been for thirteen weeks sit-
ting among their families and friends, would not impute
to any personal apprehensions of danger the propo-
sition to move to Birmingham. He was fully convinced
thatif the: Government was entrusted even to Lord
Durham, other arrests would take place just as well as
under the Administration of Sir Robert Peel.—( Hear.)
Mr. HALLEY quite agreed with Mr. Duncan in his
view of the question. Their best protection would be
to be within the law. They were placed now in a most
important position. The petition was not pre-
sented—it might be that Parliament would be dis-
solved before it would ; it would, therefore, be
necessary that they should still be in London.
He thought this necessary as the Committee on
ulterior measures had not yet reported. He would more
the following amendment : "That the Convention do not
adjourn to Birmingham until after the Committee ap-
pointed to make arrangements for simultaneous meetings
shall have reported, and the Convention shall have come
to a decision thereon."
Mr. O'BRIEN said that Mr. Halley could not adopt a
better course for getting more of their body arrested,
than by keeping them in London.
Mr. MALLING—It is particularly desirable that they
should now discuss this question with temper, in order
that they should not be caught in any trap or mesh.
He thought it was their duty to take a high position for
the advantage of the people, who were in a state of
excitation, that it would be almost impossible to allay.
He would call on them, as they valued their children.
as they valued the cause of their suffering brethren, to
act with decision, at the same time with due deliberation ;
this could be best done by their adjourning to Birming-
ham. He would therefore support Mr. O'Connor's
resolution.
Mr. LOVETT denied that he had ever imputed to the
mover of the adjournment to Birmingham any appre-
hensions for his psi coal safety or that of the Conven-
tion. He was anxious also to ask the constituents of
Mr. Attweod, whether they were satisfied with his pro-
position for throwing ovee4oard the people of Ireland.
—(Cheers.) The object of these arrests was to endea-
vour to strike terror into the breasts of the timid ; but
before we permit our organization to be broken up, let
us put forward our ulterior measures, and be prepared
to act upon them.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SANKEY objucted to the adjournment of the
Convention to Birmingham. Such a proceeding would
be at once imputed to fear.--(No, no.) Much of these
proceedings might be attributed to the foolish language
that had been frequently uttered there and elsewhere.
Having roused the people to a certain point, they should
observe more caution in saying anything that might be
construed to lead to acts of violence.—(Hear. hear.)
They should use the calm and dispassionate tone of a
deliberative assembly, and they could have no appre-
hensions from either a Wbig or Tory Government.
He had no instructions from his constituents to sanction
a removal to Birmingham, and could not, therefore,
support it.
Mr. SKEVINGTON had supported the motion in the
first instance, not from fears for his personal safety, but
because having discharged their duty to their consti-
tuents by presenting the National Petition, and having
no further business to discharge, they could best pro-
mote the cause of the People's Charter by removing to
the manufacturing districts.
Mr. PoWeLi, said it appeared to be a question whe-
ther they power of moving to Birmingham or
not. If they had that power, he believed it would be a
most judicious exercise of it to move there. The mo-
ment it was intimated that they would move to Bir-
mingham; he was satisfied that there would be 40 or
50,000 men to meet and welcome them. He had no
personal fears in recommending that sours.—(Hear.)
Mr. SMART was originally opposed to the motion of
adjournment, but the circumstances that had occurred
yesterday justified him in voting in favour of the mo-
tion.
Mr. Mont was a Lardy son of the North, and when be
canto to the Convention he had made up his mind to
sacrifice his life in the assertion of the people's rights.—
(Cheers.) But the safety of the Convention was of
the utmost importance, and rallying around them the
thousands of hard-fistcd, open•hcartcd men of the ma-
nufacturing district, would be the best possible
means of shielding them from the attacks of their
enemies.
Mr. CARRIER also supported the 'motion of adjourn-
ment.

Mr. WHITTLE said, after the decision of the House
, of Commons should be given, the Convention must stilll
; continue to sit, and he saw no objection to assembling
in Birmingham, inasmuch as it would there be more
likely to ascertain the sense of the people than in
London. With respect to the Ministry he dissented
from the opinion of Mr. O'Connor, that the people had
nothing to do with it.—(Hear, hear.) The late Minis-
try had been supported by the popular will. The Con-
vention now expressed the popular will, and the Minis-
try had fallen by the expression of its opinion—
( Cheers)—totally divested of character. He hailed
the resignation of the Ministry, as a popular triumph,
and never felt his spirits more elevated than at the
present momcnt.—(Cheers.) Unless the time had
come for bidding defiance to the Government, he trusted
that language would not incautiously be used to
induce the people to think so. The determination of
the Convention should be never to turn back from what
they bad begun until it. was finally accomplished.
Mr. BROWN said the people were called upon, not
to enter into any conflict, but they must wait the orders
of the Convention. If the Government dared to fire a
shot on the people when assembled to obtain the redress
of their grievances, he trusted that those who had ex-
pressed themselves so boldly would be prepared to carry
into effect what they had stated, and be ready to go
with the people.—(Cheers). He should support the
motion for going to Birmingham.
Mr. MILLS said the only fear he had was, that the
Convention might not act a prudent part, and thus give
the Government more power than it ought to have. He
thought, while they were going down to their constitu-
ents, that it might be as well to give the people of
Birmingham a call.—(Cheers.)
Dr. FLETCHER said he should support the motion of
Mr. O'Connor.
Mr. DEEGAN said he should move as an amendment,
that it is not expedient for the Convention to assemble
in Birmingham until after the simultaneous meetings
have been held. He thought it would be very incon-
venient and expensive to the members of the Conven-
tion to do so. They had been sent to London to
superintend the National Petition, and they ought to go
before their constituents to ascertain their opinions on
the subject before moving to another place.
Mr. RICHARDS thought the Convention would be
more useful in the country than in London, and he
therefore supported the motion for going to Birmingham.
Mr. BURNS said he would second the amendment.
Mr. DEAN supported the original motion. It
was the opinion of his constituents that the
midland counties should be brought to a proper
sense of their condition. He was of opinion
that they ought to go to Birmingham, because it would
do great good to the cause. It would raise a feeling of
determination in the midland counties, and if they
could only be united with the men of the North, they
might bid defiance to the Government, for the people in
the North were determined to have their rights at all
risks.

Mr. CLEAVE thought, in the event of a dissolution of
Parliament, the petition which bad been entrusted to
Mr. Attwood should be withdrawn, and retained in the
hands of the Convention.—(Hear, hear.) Some re-
marks had been made as to the first shotbeing fired. It
was only necessary to encourage a petty magistrate to
call out the Yeomanry to attack a peaceable meeting,
ar:d if such remarks were acted upon they would lead to
the destruction of the whole people or a large portion of
the People ; the cause would be perilled for years, if they
were to rush like madmen into the thickest part of the
battle. The sensible portion of the people were not pre-
pared for such a crisis as this. They were prepared to
take satisfaction at the hands of their enemies when the
proper time should arrive, but at the present moment
they were not prepared to take such course. Let them
not cause blood to be spilt unnecessarily. We were in a
fearful position when strong language was thrown out
without a due sense of caution, and he counselled every
man to remember that aggressive violence must be de-
structive of the cause. The position in which they
were now placed was one of the most momentous in
history. It was possible the Convention might now
have
an opportunity of setting the population against
the Government, whereas one rash step might set the
current the contrary way. —(Hear, bear.) He conjured
them not to leave this place,
hut to meet the enemy
and contend with him acefully and legally so long as
there was a chance of wringing from the aristocracy
their hold over the people of England. The present mo-
ment was the proudest that the Radicals had enjoyed for
many years, and he trusted they wo..dd make the most
of it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. NEEsom rose to support Mr. O'Cennor's mo-
tion, from the reasons which had been urged for its ne-
cessity.
The Convention ought to be placed where it
could support the people, andwhere the people could
support it--( Hear, hear)—and ho!li would then be
armed with double power: Mr. Mills seemed to re.
jeice that the Ministry had fallen, but it would be suc-
ceeded by another as bad ; and the people ought to use
every exertion to procure a Governtneet favourable to
Universal Suffrage,
Mr. CARPENTER said on the llst occasion he voted
against going to Birmingham because be thought they

ought not to leave London until the petition had been
resented. But they were now in a different position,
for no one could tell when the House of Commons
would again assemble, and if they should again assem-
ble on Monday next the Members would not be in a
temper to discuss the petition. He thought the Con-
vention would be better employed in organizing the
people, for during the last few days, for want of some
business to do they had been doing mischief.—(Cheers.)
He should now support the motion for going to Bir-
mingham. _ _

Mr. JAMES TAYLOR would vote against going to
Birmingham, because it would be treated by the pub-
~.

Lie as an indication of fear. One of the members of
he Convention had been arrested, and it was said

that others might be. Had Mr. Vincent been ar-
rested because he sat in the Convention ? No.
Ought the members of this Convention, then, to ex-
press any fear for themselves ? Had they any rea-
son to fear ?—( No, no)—or if they had, would they
benefit themselves by removal ?—(No.) He thought
they could not be in a better position than that
which they now occupied, where they could watch
the course of events, and take advantage of any favour-
able circumstances which might arise.

Mr. HETHERINGTON concurred in the sentiments ex-
pressed by Mr. Taylor, and thought it would be injudi-
cious to remove to Birmingham. The members of the
Convention ought to stay here and do their duty as men,
for events were about to occur which might require all
their exertions.

Mr. PITKEITHLEY trusted Mr. O'Connor would
postpone his motion until after the simultaneous meet-
ings had taken place, as much expense and inconveni-
ence might thereby be avoided.
Bailie CRAIG had no objection to go to Birmingham,
but he thought their business in London ought to be
concluded first. If they went to Birmingham it would
be said they were a pack of cowards, and had gone there
for protection. He had no fear, and he was at a loss to
know what they were to do, as a Convention, in Bir-
mingham. He would not consent to go to Birmingham
until he had done his duty to his constituents as re-
garded the presentation of the petition.
Mr. HARTWELL said he should oppose the motion.
Mr. O'CoNNoR replied, after which a division took
place when the numbers were—

For the adjournment to Birmingham....... 27
For the amendment
Majority

-17

Ten members were absent and six who were presen
did not vote.

Upon this resolution being passed,
Mr. O'CoNNot asked leave of absence for himself
and Mr. Frost for a short time, to consult with a
solicitor on Mr. Vincent's arrest, which was granted.
The SECRETARY announced Si. rent, through Mr.
Williams, from the people of Caernarvon ; from Buck-
farthing, Devonshire, 2/. from Charles Ackerley, and a
vote of confidence from the people of Croydon.