The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-02 00:00:00

his attention had been called to any alteration, bu' he
would inquire, and endeavour to satisfy the Hon. and
Gallant Member.—(Hear, hear.)

fore I think the intervention by the State, which has
been wholly unnecessary in England, must be eminently
called for in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But if we go
from England to countries united and connected with
her, what do we find the course pursued to have

Mr. REDINGTON said a few words, of which we
could only understand the purport to be, that the Com-
mittee alluded to by Mr. Hodgson Hinde, referred
only to Great Britain.
After some further discussion, the House went into
Committee.

been ? The sum voted for the Caledonian canal is

953,000/. ; for Highland roads, 250,000/. ; for military
roads, 241,000/., and so forth. So that all the sums
voted, and prudently voted, will, I think, show that
something to be voted for a prudent appropriation in
Ireland will not be unreasonable—l do not say for the
gratuitous assistance, but for the intervention of the
State. It does seem to have been part of the system of
the policy of this country that where opulence was
scanty, and where energy was yet unfledged, for Mi-
nisters, to adopt measures to forward the interests of
those parts, and to afford facilities. I think it will be
found that all the facilities which have been given to
intercourse and communication have an enormous ten-
dency to reproduce and multiply themselves. There
are some most striking instances of this given in the Re
port of the Railway Commissioners with respect both
to land and water carriage. I shall not trouble the
House with any of them, except some that relate to
railways, which is the question under consideration.
I find it stated with reference to the increase
of traffic which has been occasioned by making
railways, that upon the Stockton and Darling-
ton line, 4,000 passengers a year travelled before
that railway was made, and that now the number
exceeds 16,000. On the Bolton line the number now
is 2,500 per week, whereas the number of coach pas-
sengers used to be not more than 300. On the New-
castle and Carlisle road prior to the railway, the .whole
number of persons carried by public coaches was about
341 per week, the distance Ining 47 miles, now .they
are 250 per day. On the Liverpool and Manchester
line they were 400 per day, or 146,000 a year,
whereas now they are 500.000. Precisely the same
results were shown from railways abroad. Even in
Ireland upon the railway between Dublin and Kng-
sten which has been in operation for three years Only,
and where the price is not less than by other convey-
ances—where the distance is very short, and not much
time saved, yet many more persons travel between those
places now than ever did before. There are other de-
tails showing the great increase of communication, and
intercourse which has been introduced to places by the
affording of other facilities, such as by steam navigation.
However, I do not desire to overwhelm the House
with documents, but there is proof here of the most
marvellou; manner in which these additional means of
communication with surrounding districts has benefited
the country, and a degree of benefit which could not
have been anticipated by the moil sanguine projectors
or original inventors.—( Hear, hear.) But if such are
the benefits which have resulted from opening new
modes of intercourse, it may be asked, why not leave
the whole matter to private enterprise, which would se-
cure such promising results? My answer to that is,
that although I consider it undoubted that the introduc-
tion of a well constructed railroad system into Ireland
would be of most material benefit to the .distritita
through which, and places to which, they were carried,
and to the country generally, it by no means follows
it would hold forth a promise of sufficient remuneration
to ensure the undertaking by private individuals. There
may be portions of lines in some of them to be made,
as well as portions under Acts already obtained, that
might afford remuneration sufficient to any Company,
or any few individuals, to undertake them ; but I doubt
if that could secure a sufficient consideration for
what Ireland.most wants and what, would mostly benefit
lier—a system of railway lines carried on to a great ex-
tent from the metropolis to the sea coast, from
shore to shore, connecting the extremities of Ireland—
connecting the British Channel with the Atlantic, and
to use lofty, though not inappropriate terms, connecting
the old world with the new. What are the calculations
which the Commissioners have made? and here let me
say, once for all, that I cannot pretend to assert that
those calculations are to be considered as infallible, or
that the House ought to repose implicit trust in them—
probably they will be found, ike all other human matters,
liable to some mistake and error—but while I admit
this, 1 yet profess to build on those calculations. With
respect to the Commissioners themselves, I have the
strongest opinion of their competency and ability.—
(Hear, hear.) I have the most unswerving and undi-
viding opinion of their integrity and impartiality. I am
not aware that in any essential point any material error
has as yet been established against them ; therefore, ad-
mitting, as I do, that they may be liable to mistake,
and that they may have in such a vast series of calcu-
lations committed some errors, yet I feel that no labour
I could have given to the subject could have
made me more able to form juster calculations
than they have arrived at ; and with respect to
others who may be inclined to impugn them,
I shall almost be disposed to entertain the same views.
Now, their calculation is that some portions of the line
they have recommended would carry with them a profit
of five per cent., but the other lines which it would be
equally necessary to carry into effect would not produce
more than seven-tenths of an unit per cent. Now if we
were to undertake only those parts of the lines that
would be likely to bear profit there would be great dif-
ficulty in even getting those other parts undertaken.
At the great meeting held in Dublin, at which men of
all parties attended—at which its Hon. and Learned
Representative attended—and, if I mistake not, the re-
quisition for the meeting was signed by the Right Hon.
and Learned Recorder—it was resolved that it appeared
to that meeting the establishment of any such compre-
hensive system of railways as that contemplated could
not, under existing circumstances, be effected by private
capital and enterprise, and that it became the duty of
the Government to take the great national work into its
own hands. [The Noble Lord then read the remainder
of the resolutions agreed to at the meeting ; also reso-
lutions of the same spirit, agreed to at a meeting of the
Great Northern England Railway ; and the resolutions
agreed to at a meeting of the landed proprietors and
inhabitants of Cahir, at which the Earl of Glengal
was in the Chair.] I do not at all intend, and it is
very far from my wish, to impeach on this occasion
the conduct of any Railway Companies or any Railway

Lord MORPETH rose and said—Now that I am
permitted to go into the Committee, and to state what
the intentions of the Government are, it may be conve-
nient for our subsequent proceedings, and at all events just
to the Government, and to the conduct which it has pre-
viously pursued, to state what course I intend to pur-
sue. I feel conscious that the proposition which lam
about to submit to the House, notwithstanding the indig-
nation
which has ruffled the short preliminary discussion,
can have no tendency or effect to lead to any political
feeling, inasmuch as it has for its sole objact
that which I am sure is common to all parties
both within and without the House, to promote the
effectual, and, if I may use the term, the material
benefit of the Irish nation. Yet 1 confess that I
do feel anxious, and I am not aware that on any pre-
vious occasion have I ever felt more of the suspense
and anxiety which would naturally accompany the
introduction of the most ambigurrusand tempestuous party
warfare. This feeling I attribute partly to my own con
viction of the great importance of the subject and of
the steps which I propose to found on it, but
still more from my most unfeigned sense of the
slight and inadequate justice which I can render to it, in-
asmuch as this is a subject, considering the great extent,
and variety, and complexity of all its various bearings,
which might well claim and would justly deserve the
most unvaried and unoccupied attention, while 1 have
been only able to confer on it the very spare gleinings
and refuse of a scanty leisure. However, Sir, I feel
that the circumstances under which I bring this propo-
sition forward will materially tend to relieve the of much
orthe burden of this responsibility. This responsibility
is well known to almost every Hon. Member whom I
have the honour to address.
Mr. lIU ME—We don't hear a word of what the
Noble Lord says.
Lord INIORPETH—In consequence of what I have
already stated this evening, and of tho address unani-
mouhly voted by the Houses of Parliament, a Com-
mission was appointed by his late Majesty, which
was subsequently renewed in this reign, and with re-
g ird to what has been alluded to by the Ho-
nouri.ble and Gallant Member opposite, I must
say that I certainly am not aware that its proceedings
were affected by any designed interference on the part
of the. Government, and I may fairly state that the Go-
vernment never used the slightest interference with these
Commissioners. That Commission was appointed to
inquire into the whole subject of Irish railroads, and it
was composed of persons who, as has been stated by
my Noble Friend on the other side of the House, were
received with a very general feeling of assent on the
part of the House ; and as I believe I shall be borne
out by all competent contemporary testimony, were
above all exception with regard to the task which had
been particularly confided to them.—(Hear, hear.)
However, these qualifications are best tested by the re-
port which they had made. Now, Sir, my own judgment
on that document might certainly not be reckoned
disinteested, and more certainly still, it would be
worth very little.—( A laugh.) Nor, Sir, can I pretend
' that it was received with universal approval, or with
undivided favour. On the contrary, immediately at the
time of its appearance there were various and repeated
attacks made upon it, and the opposition proceeded
from various quarters in contravention of the statements

and recommendations which it contained, and when the
llon. Gentleman sa3 s that we adopt therecommenda-

tion which we this night propose to the House in con-
sequence of the pressure put upon us by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin, I can only observe, in oppo-
sition to that statement,that the only thing I ever heard
in public or private from my Hon. and Learned Friend,
was a condemnation expressed in this House of the re-
port on his first inspection of it. I am glad to find that a
minuter inspection and examination of its contents caused
him to modify his original opinion. While I admit that
on. the first appearance of this Report it was met from
various quarters with the same demonstrations of hostility,
yet on a closer;examination it seems, by some coincidence
or other, these demonstrations have generally, if not
exclusively proceeded from quarters and from persons
whose interests were 'embarked in the prosecution of
schemes which were liable to be affected by that Report,
and who thought that their particular interests would
not be sufVciently attended to. However that may be,
true it is that it may be fairly stated that
the Report we are now considering has risen
gradually but steadily and surely in the esti-
mation of all impartial and competent judges. It
is receiving fresh attestation almost daily in its favour,
and opposing parties to it are now waxine, weaker
and weaker. Various meetings have been held in all
parts of Ireland—in the metropolis—in the largest
cities, and in various parts of the country, attended by,
men of all pursuits and all political feelings, who have
expressly called upon Governpent to act in furtherance
of the recommendation of the Commissioners. I need not
give a catalogue of all the meetings that have been
held, but amongst other documents which I have, is
an address whic has been presented to her Majesty
by a great body of the Peers of Ireland, headed by
the Duke of Leinster, who expressed themselves deeply

measure is undoubtedly produced by local circumstances
peculiar to this country itself ; but let us inquire what
it is that causes so immense a disproportion between the
respective estimates of England and Belgium. Now,
Sir, I think that the cases of Belgium and Ireland are
parallel, as near as can be—what is applicable to one,
is, in my opinion, to the other. In this country the great
and main item of expense is, most undoubtedly, the im-
mense expense attendant upon passing Bills through
Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) In many cases, it is stated
that the charge for obtaining the Bill alone, and even
where the lines have been very long, has exceeded
1,000/. per mile. The London and Birmingham Com-
pany were at an expense, for passing their Bill through
the Houses of Parliament, of no less a sum than
72,8681. The Great Western Company incurred
a cost of 82,7101. for the same purpose. The Lon-
don and Southampton, 39,000/. ; the Midland Coun-
ties', 28,000/. ; the Great North of England, 20,0001. ;
the Grand Junction,.22,oool. In fact, the cost of passing
eight Railway Bills through Parliament amounted to no
less a sum than 311,595. Now make the contrast, the
average sum for obtaining the same privilege in Belgium
is only 729/.—( Hear, hear.) The expense attending
upon the London and Brighton Bills before the House
was so great as almost to exceed belief. Another great
item of expense is the enormous sums paid to persons
whose land is taken by the Companies, and who are in
possession of Parliamentary influence.—(Cheers.) The
statement made by the Hon. Member for Lancashire
la-a night was a most important one, and the House
ought on this occasion to take it into their most serious
msideration. From that statement it was shown that
persons had at times received ten times the value of their
land to secure the Parliamentary influenco they en-
joyed. There is another case on record, and as it has
been already before a Court of Law, I have no hesitation
in referring to it. In that case a Nobleman was strenu
ously opposed to the passing of a Railway Bill, because
the line would run through his estate, but his opposition
was bought off by a sum of 20,0001. being paid him for his
land, with a promise of 100,0001. as compensation
for the injury done to his estate. In the present in-
stence I am most happy to inform the House, that on
the line we propose to go, many lauded proprietors have
came forward, and because they are perfectly aware that
their districts will be much benefited by the penetration
of a railway, have offered their land to the Government
free of all cost. Amongst others I may mention the
mimes of the Duke of Leinster and the Earl of Kings-
toern, and many others have alio come 'forward and
offered their land on the same terms, on condition that
the undertaking is superintended 6y Government. I
sin not prepared to say that the parties on the other
lines—indeed I know that the Firth s on private lines—
will not act in so beneficent a manner. Another serious
extravagance in private lands is the pushing the works for-
ward, which, if the undertaking was under the real super-
intendance of Government, would be entirely done away
svt.h. But the greatest reason of all why the manage-
rn rnt of such an undertaking should be in the State,
especially in a poor and indigent country—the greatest
advantage is, that whereas private individuals or Corn-
panics, of course, as it would be their interest—and as
beg as human nature remains what it is, the case would
be the same—they will try to raise their profits to their
ut most stretch.—( Hear, hear.) The Government now
Imposes to limit the rate of profit to the
necessary and legitimate expenses of the undertaking.
It is very striking to perceive how the cheapness of
fares produces and multiplies travelling. The expe-
rience of the railway system itself compared with turn-
pike roads proves that as fares are reduced and accom-
rnadation extended traffic will more than proportionately

increase.—(The Noble Lord then referred to an article
in the " Statistical Journal," in which a striking con-
tr Ist is drawn between the number of passengers on Ore
Liverpool and Manchester Rail way,and on the line of rail-

roads in Belgium greatly to the advantage of the latter.)
Having now sufficiently stated the views I entertain of
the general principles by which I wish to be guided, I
will now mentions very shortly the propositions which I
am about to submit to the consideration of the House,

and which I hope they will at least give me leave to em-
body in a Bill, which will of course be submitted to the
!nature consideration of Parliament. We do not propose

interested in the interests of Ireland, and who warnily-

recommended the adoption of some such course as re-
commended by the Commissioners.---(Here the Noble
Lord mat; the address). This at once con-
veys the knowledge to the House that all
parties, whatever their political opinions may be, concur
in imploring the Government to prosecute a work
which .vill be for the common advantage of their coun-
try. We thus thought there was a sufficient assent
and authority on the part of the Irish people to justify
the Government to act in accordance with what the
Commissioners have pointed out. But I am aware this
is not a sufficient motive to recommend that to the
adoption of the imperial Legislature, unless it shall ap-
pear to them that the positions of that Report are
founded in truth, and that its recommendations are
based in policy ; and my object in standing up in the
place I haye in the Cabinet is, to state that those
positions so recommended, not of course comprising
every single deduction, or embracing every statement
contained in that Report, but to say that its main sub-
stance and the general tenor of the course recom-
mended is sound, just, proper, and politic. There
are many of the p-opositions it contains, which, I be-
lieve, all will take for granted at once. I t would be
a loss of time at this period of Railway enterprises,
to labour to prove tint they are the most wonderful
and efficient means of promoting public convenience
and increasing national wealth. It would be almost
superfluous to attempt to prove that their introduction
into Ireland, taken by itself would be of singular advan-
tage to that country. The point for our consideration is
how is that introduction to be obtained. Can we leave

. .
. .
concerns in England. On the. contrary, I think the
country is immensely indebted to the energy, the skill,
and the enterprise they have displayed ; and I profess
myself friendly to railroad undertakings in every shape
_ ...

and every form.—(Hear.) Still I believe it is thought,
and the opinion is gaining ground, that Parliament in
the first instance did somewhat blindly and precipitately
throw the whole control and superintendence, and legis-
lation, in fact, of these vast concerns, which are fast
gathering into a monopoly of communication throughout
the country—(Hear)—into the hands of private and
irresponsible individuals ; and that it is now beginning
to be found, that great as the advantages are which have

resulted from these undertakings, yet there are among
them to be found some of those abuses and imperfections

which monopoly and irresponsibility, by a law of nature,
seemed to create. The ground is comparatively open
to us in Ireland, and I would upon that new field,

having laboured to prove that the circumstances of Ire-
land do justify—l wouid even venture to say, do call
for the intervention of the Legislature—l will employ
that intervention in the introduction of this great and
marvellous agency of moral improvements, reserved for
the skill and energy of our own day. I would introduce
it in its most complete and efficient form, relieved from
all the imperfections and abuses which inevitably ac-
company the first experiment—adopting all the various
and multiplied improvements and suggestions which
have been subsequently supplied, and which are now
every day in the course of being supplied—disembarassing
it from the expected delays attendant on the ordi-
nary Parliamentary proceedings, and to have it executed
under competent controul by persons selected exclu-
sively from their eminent fitness and ability, with that
precision, regularity, and order which a public depart-
ment perhaps can alone exact and ensure. The course

it to the energies of private enterprise and competition,
as has been wholly done in Englund, or shall we call in
the assistance—the temporary assistance, if you please
—the intervention of the State. Now, I admit that
that which may be applicable to this part of the country
may not be quite the same to Ireland ; and I admit
also, that there is a Report in this House, which does
equally seem to discourage such undertakings in Ire-
land ; but a very clear distinction is made in that report
between the case of Great Britain and the case of

Ireland ; and in respect to Ireland it must be
remembered that the recommendations of the
Committee have been thrown overboard in
a great degree by the Commissioners for Rail
ways in Ireland, under a Commission, which was
adopted unanimously by the other House of Parlia-
ment, and acceded to by a great part of this. The
question is, whether a course that may be consistent
with principles of political economy as applied solely to
England, is of equal force when it is attempted to be
applied to Ireland. Now, the principle of these under-
takings being left solely to private interprise, may re-
quire some modification. Yet I do not wish a quarrel
with the principle of non-intervention as applied to
England, or to any country in a state of great advance-
ment, and in the possession of the most opulent re-
sources. My question is, is Ireland in a similar state
Can it be said that it has powerful means of resources,
and that it is bursting with opulence? I was taunted
only last. night with not having pressed this sufficiently
on the consideration of the House. I think, that so far
from being singular in opinion that that which would
not be proper for a country circumstanced as Ireland,
but which would be proper for a country quite differ-
ently circumstanced to Ireland, I should be quite the
other way ; but th:s is a question rather to be solved by
facts than theories. And is England in want of the
intervention of the State? Look for a moment over
the surface, if you are to answer that question, and then
contrast it with the surface of Ireland. Just present to
your own minds the respective pictures of the two coun-
tries ; the one with her soil matured by all proper pro-
ce3ses of agriculture, bringing through countless
channels its' products—into its manufactories, its
workshops, with its clusters gathering around every
river, and its forests of masts thickening in evrsry port ;
the other with a soil yet more fertile, but scantily and
inadequately cultivated, with a plain even more extended
and level, but from which the hum of successful indus•
try scarcely arises, and along the rivers of which the
sails of commerce arc but rarely unfurled. I find with
reference to the comparative Custom duties of both
countries the following statement :—ln England, in
1837, the net produce of the Custom duties was
18,614,000/.—the net produce of the Custom duties in
Ireland was 1,937,0001. ; the net produce of Excise
duties in England, 10,486,0001—in Ireland, 1,829,000/.
The capital authorised to be raised in England, under
Acts of Parliament passed in 1833-L4-35 and 1836, was
upwards of 29,000,000/. The estimated amount under

which has been adopted by the Government of Belgium
is in strict accordance with the views I have thus
recommended, and if the Committee will give me leave
to trouble them for a few minutes, I think I shall be
able to show that the results of dim, course afford us

in the first instance to undertake one of the great trunk
lines, recommended by the Railway Commissioners. I
own that I myself should have rather liked to have
grasped more—(Hear, hear)—on account of the pro-
bable benefits that would result, but the line which we
propose to adopt is of sufficient magnitude fully to test
the plan, which certainly must be admitted, to some
extent, to be still an experiment. Perhaps it is more
hirlo the country and the public, and ail interests
concerned, not to monopolize the whole field at once—Ao
leave room for consideration and experience as we go on
and to leave the field open after the experiment shall—
have been tried, for the House to consider whether it
sill proceed to a more enlarged and entire adoption of
the old plan, provided private Companies have not
I)_•en permitted to take up the field before, and to as-
certain accordingly the grounds of preference between
the execution of such works by the State and by private
individuals. The line we propose to execute is that
from Dublin to Cork, with branches to Limerick and
Clontn. el covering an extent of 212 miles, the main line
from Dublin to Cork being 166 miles, the branch which
will diverge from the main trunk to Limerk:k 36 miles,
and the branch which will leave the main line for Clon-
mel being 10 miles. According to the calculations
made by the Commissioners, this line will involve an
expense of 2,556,000/. The reasons which have de-
termined us to adopt this line is, that we think it will
benefit a larger extent of country and open a communi-
cation with more important districts and towns, and a
larger field of agricultural country than to be obtained
under any other lint—it will throw open the coun-
ties of Tipperary, Cork, Limerick, Clare, and
Waterford ; and another important point is, that the
sounties through which the railroad is to pass are with-
out canals or navigable rivers. This line, connecting
Dublin with Cork, will give to the remotest parts of
the British empire a rapid means of communication to
to the nearest harbour for embarkation to America.
The county is extremely favourable to the construction
of railroads, as will appear by the details of the Com-
missioners ; and though, in other divisions some of these
advantages have been realised, there is no other line
which, in an equal degree, could have united them all,
or afforded so promising an opening for making a be-
ginning, and which will effect great practical good, if
the excution of it be carried into effect. I should have
been glad to have connected the Great Northern Line
railroadsgfrbti
Acts
y for the
e ridonDttskcimeht
undertakingnuhhoti
recommended
uei
am nnrdei
nrendwieadbceseaiansxoedswisi
cdemecototilnirinußant
vesameaaei
recommendation
,h 1
snarl Bell
fast—(Hear,
progress.—(
aoseoißtdenati
exclamations
dfesoerchrpneroa(teaoshtni imesglrt
though
0. tai
remembered
mmoaanhgnrrnfisbp,
dteltHel
contemplate
rt
westeeehbeamadoeusrs:)stated
Commissioners
that
iiccgieecaoabwti
dnativmteoyrhe n.
there
icolgmhe et
hrnotrri
erdoflshii
ansenarttl:kri ry.
recommendation
ehnni
tttaabb:hioue.
have
toduaellotwo
they
time
tAo
ee
daet stcsGesch,
oeoretnoreanrnrt
a:taeeratai
cofnntsstl
:woo
rtougohhustteelhohl
demnhe
erreeoenar
mcl
ost
Railway,
between
completion
tlptCae:aok, oaennemyxi
Companies may
ieafrntrmnmidwei
taeaenhiyrzsl
experience
heciwbti
aigsehaocri
nogsecsdtsuhauieiti
teedapodrrvi
Drogheda,
gsnntoi
her bmeenr tedddaa recom-
mended ton:hi
mnecoa
undertakemaking
atv'tihn'
mended in the Report of the Railway Committee.
The first part-regards the maintenance of the railway,
the second the payment of the interest of the capital.
The payment for the capital would not be more than one
and a half per cent. The surplus, it is proposed, should
be disposed of in diminishing the rates, &c. The cal-
culation of the Commissioners respecting the returns to
be expected from this line, state, that the whole length
would produce a profit of four per cent. I believe, how-
ever, and it is generally thought that the Commissioners,
in making the calculations, have made an error ; but that
error is on the side of prudence, for they have under-
rated the proceeds that may be expected. Indeed it has
been a matter of accusation against them, that they have
purposely undervalued the returns, in order that the
Government might take the who.c mutter into its hands.
We, however, only hope to roalise a profit that will co-
ver the interest on the capital, and meet the necessary
expenses. But so unwilling had we been to prejudice
the minds of Parliament or of the country with an idea
that Ireland would be benefited at the expense of
England, that we have taken care to guard the Trea-
suty against the risk they might incur by becoming
participators in this Bill, that we have enacted, that if
the revenue be not adequate' for the maintenance of the
works and the payment of arrears, the deficiency should
be made up by assessments on those counties through
which the line shall pass. If the existence of the line
should he found to be more beneficial to one part of
the land adjoining the line than the remoter districts,
we propose that the premises contiguous to the line
shall pay one-third of the expenses, and that the remain-
inn two-thirds shall be paid by those counties through
which the line pnsses. These are the particular
gpirvoevirnsioonlesaovef
ttoheintßroidllu,
cwe.hichonle
ohfoiptse to
gtrheeet jHoeucstes iswill
(Hear,ernploy thehea
bear.)
people p l‘evoef
dlreland, r
propose
thee
that, b naesfil
itntthethc e
of. lreland.parsfiot
private companies and other speculations, that
s
shall go into their own pockets ; but those profits, after
matting the general expenses of the line, will b t appro-
priated to the several benefits of the road. The details of
this measure will differ much front those in enactments
already existing—but private enterprises are subject to too
much personal responsibility. But if this undertaking were
committed to private management, it would be conducted
to give
tiol
haheanei
rylMaitaansntthenpreersps that
possible
would not be likely to promise sucees.-
We think the measure will reduce the rates of construe
tion and maintenance, and • that it will also reduce the rate
of travelling. We propose to leave the attainment of
employmentand t byo a theg great a °tpperaarttioonfotfheourp,p,prouelaeteidoningosf,
Ireland._( Hear, hear.) It has been at all times thought
necessary. that this employment should be given as enter_
now find
ebsleentattimael.l timHeosn,.bmutemitbwearss
would
dr more so
an opportunity of improving the Poor-law Bill of last
Session. Not to take up the time of the House with what
might be considered visionary recommendations, I trust
I shall be permitted to introduce this measure. In
the course of my address I have made extracts froin
various writers to point out t)- importance of such works,

Bills brought in in 1837 w:as—ve;yne;rly3l,ooo,ooo/.
Therefore 60,000,0001. have already been applied for
railways in England ; whereas in Ireland there is only
on completion of a railway, and that extends only five
miles. In England, I think, the extent of -canals is
4,000 miles ; in Ireland, little more than 400. There-

most ample authority, and most promising emeourage-
ment to tread in the same step. The course pursued
at the beginning was almost precisely to what has
taken place in this country. I quote from a
report of the Statistical Society from official docu-
ments in Belgium, which has been only published
in the course of the last month. The first step the Go-
vernment took was to employ a number of competent
engineers to survey the country, and to determine the
main lines with reference not only to the features of the
country, but with reference to the interests of large
towns. It then gives a summary of the lines resolved
on, states their completion, and the results that followed,
one of the most important of which is, that the people
would have earlier the means of using these great traffic
engines, if their completion was not altogether left
to private interests. It further states that the Go-
vernment would in all probability be repaid the whole
of their outlay, and the country would be benefitted
as well by the increase in the trade as by the revenue
asising from such increase. The experience of small
private undertakings will give rise to the question
whether it was likely the Government would be more ar-
bitrary in the conduct of such undertakings than the
Companies which now govern them ; and that is a
question of no small importance. In Belgium the ex-
penses attending upon the making of such railroads
was 3,5261. per mile. Now, the lowest sun yet in-
curred in the laying down of a mile of railroad is
10,0001. This was upon the Newcastle and Carlisle
railroad, the expenses of which, I believe, are the
lowest of any that have yet been made in this country.
Some have gone so high as to reach the enormous outlay
of 40,0001. per mile. The Manchester and Liverpool
Railway cost 38,0001. the mile—the Dublin and Kings-
town 41,8331., while the London and Greenwich Rail-
road, which extendi only three miles, has already cost
the enormous sum of 600,0001., being at the-rate of the
enormous outlay of 200,0001. a mile. The estimates of
the whole outlay for the lines, for which Bills passed in
1836 and 1837, amounted to no less than 25 millions,
while the average estimate for the whole was not less than
17,6001. per mile, and very few of them have ever been
completed at the estimate. Now, Sir, this in a great

THE SUN., LONDf )N, SATUR DA Y.-EVENING EDIT TON,--MA RCII 2. 1839

and shall now conclude with a quotation from one of the
mlst practical as well as splendid of our poets:—
" Give harbour-room, the public ways extend,
Let temples worthy of the God ascend ;
Bid the broad arch the dang'rous flood restrait ,
And watchful guard yourself against the main ;
Back to its bounds the dang'rous sea command,
And roll-obedient rivers through the land.
These honours peace to happy England brings,
These are imperial works, and worthy Kings.
The Noble Lord then moved the resolution to issue
2 500,0001. Exchequer Bills.
Mr. RE DINGTON seconded the motion, anti con-
gratulated the Noble Lord on the statements he had made.
He had the highest respect for the zeal and talent of the
Railway Com nissioners ; but while he admitted that they
bad elven the most important information respecting
three provinces in Ireland, they had almost entirely mis-
represented or omitted to make mention of the other pro-
vince, that was Connaught, his native place.--( Hear. )
The western part of Ireland had not come in for its fair
consideration on the part of the Commissioners as the
southern and other parts of Ireland had done. The whole
province of Connaught has been completely laid aside by
the Commissioners ; they had not proposed to lay out a
ingle line there, for they had not made any surveys or
taken any proceedings for that purpose. The Commis-
sioners had not dealt fairly with the people of Galway._
Hear, hear.) He felt hound, however, to admit that
there was one paragraph in the Report of the Commis.
~inners which must be considered candid in the extreme;
he alluded to that part of the Report in which the Com-
.

missioners stated that there were certain parts of Ireland
which they had not thought it necessary to make investi
rations with respect to. He (Mr. R.) thought it was ti.e
ditty of the House, before they adopted the present mea-
•ure, to see whether or not railways could not be introluced
a ith great benefit into the other parts of Ireland the Com-
missioners had not referred to. With regard to the
general principles involved in the measure proposed by the
Noble Lord, that the Government should take the place of
private enterprise in such a country as Ireland, there existed
very high authority against it; that authority stated that
when Governments interfered with private enterprise they
interfered with that which neither did the country or thy'
Governments any benefit : he, however, was not one of
those who thought that when Government interfered with
;.rivate enterrrise they would not succeed. If he wanted a
proof of that he had only to refer to both statements of the
Noble Lord opposite with respect to whit ha l taken pl ice
is Belgium. UpoW that ground it was that lie agreed
ii the general principles of the measure of the Noble
Lord. He was gled that the measure had been intro lured,
.nd he trusted that it would meet with the sanction of the

Howie. He could not, however, agree to the—d;:tnilsof
the Noble Lord's Bill, because he desir,ql that the
people of the West of Ireland should have the !ante benefit

is had been given to the southern and the other parts
of Ireland.

Sir ROBERT PE EL then rose and said, Sir, the
short progress of this debate has confirmed me in the
doubts which I entertained before, with respect to the po-
licy of departing from the usuil line that has hitherto been

adopted w. ith respect to measures of this description. I
say nothing upon this measure with respect to expense.
It may be trifling—or it may be great. Only show me
that this measure will he beneficial to the people of Ire-
iand, and I will throw out of consideration all question of
expence. I cannot.but think, Sir, that the very propossl
:hat has now been made, will be subject to most enormous
difficulties. The Noble Lord opposite proposes the selec-
tion of a particular line, and the first Gentleman who rises
to speak upon the question, after the Noble Lord, who
represents a part of the country which it is not proposed to
benefit by this measure he prefers a charge of iLd;vidual
partiality, and injustice in the provisions of the Bill. He says
:hat the interests of Connaught arc overlooked—that the in-
terests of Ulster are overlooked, and that these are the un-
questionable consequences that will result from the interfe-
rence on the part of the Government. Now what is the

ease proposed by the measure of the isloble—Co;cl? His

proposition is not only to make the line tolLimerick, but to
tix the inhabitants of Ulster and Connaught to obtain
the means of making that line.—(Cries of No, no.") I
say yes, because Exchequer Bills are to be issued for the
purpose, and what means have the Government of paying
those Exchequer Bills except by taxation? ,The preposi-
tion is that you are to take the capital of individuals for the
purpose of,forming one particular line. The report of the
Commissioners may be very ingenious in rest:pet of engi-
neering, but it convinces me of.tho impolicy of the inter-
ference of Government—( Hear, hear)—because it tends
to show that there is a sufficient inducement to indivi-
duals to undertake the speculation. The whole tenour of
the report confirms me in that. —The Noble Lord refers
to England, and asks what has been the result with respect
to the great works that have been undertaken in this
' country through the intervention of the Government.—
( Hear, hear,) I consider that that analogy cannot
hold good wi'h respect to the present speculation. The
Noble Lord says, compare the poverty of Ireland to that
of England. How far, I would ask, am Ito compare it ?
Shall I compare the poverty of Wales with .that of Eng.
land? Shall I refer to the. Custom duties, and show that
though Wales only pays 5,0001. duties, England pays up-
wards of 100,000/. ; and am I, therefore, to infer from
that, that in Wales there arc not individuals of sufficient
oroperty to take upon themselves a speculation, and there-
fore that the Government should interfere? The question
ts, whether the country, through the Government, shall
carry on these speculations, or whether they shall be left
to be carried on as the speculations in this country have
been carried on, by the labour, the industry, the talents,
and capital of private individuals. I find, Sir, in this Re-
port, ample proof that there are individuals in Ireland who
are enterprising and intelligent enough to carry- out specu-
, lations with a spirit that will ensure their success. Now,
what says the Report? The Report is brought forward
to show how enormously private interests are increased by
open communication. That is one of the objects of the Re-
port, and it shows it most conclusively. It takes the case
I apprehend most surrounded with difficulty—the least
tempting speculation that cars be conceived, and one which
few individuals would be inclined to enter into—it takes the
case of a native of Milan, with very little capital, who bas
determined to settle in the county town of Tipperary—it
takes the case of a foreigner coming to a strange country,
and applying his intelligence and enterprise in that coun-
try, and what is the result ? Why the enterprise of an
individual has supplied the whole South-west of Ireland
with internal communication which had not before existed.
A distinct prooof that the people of Ireland are dis-
posed to appreciate the advantages of internal communi-
cation :--" With a capital little exceeding his first outlay,
he commenced a single car, in Tipperary, a most disturbed
part of the country. He soon began to increase the num-
ber of his cars, and multiply their routes, till they extended
themselves in all directions—Munster, Kilkenny, Sligo,
Leitrim ; he has now ninety-four public carriages,
which daily traverse a distance of 3,000 miles."—( Hear,
hear.) These results arc the more striking, as having
been accomplished unier most disadvantageous circum-
stances. The attempt was made in a most disturbed part
of the country ; and in respect to a traffic, peculiarly ex-
posed to the caprice of the peasantry. But the reliance of
this gentleman on their good sense and their good feeling
met with its just reward.—( Hear, hear.) Why should
not the Irish gentry follow the example of that
foreigner, and trust to their own enterprise and
industry?—(Hear, hear.) Is there not danger, rhat if
von tell the people of that country that they are too peor
for such enterprises, you are holding out the greatest
possible discouragement to those enterprises.—( fiear,
hear.) Your great Government Railroad, with its public
department and its cumbrous machinery, with the provision
that if the profits are not sufficient there shall be an as-
sessment—all your arguments for this would equally go to
the establishment of a great Government cotton mill in
Ireland.—( Hear.) You say " Ireland is poor—England
is rich—the cotton manufacture flourishes in England and
not in Ireland—the cotton manufacture gives great em-
ployment to the poor—there will be an opportunity
of profiting by all the new improvements in England."
Why, the answer to all this is, that it would be insulting
to the people of Ireland to say that they are not capable
of profiting by all those improvements—that it is impos-
sible for them to travel by the Birmingham and Liver-
pool Railway without seeing the advantages of those im-
provements in internal communication—and that there is
no necessity for a public department to introduce those
onprovements. Sir, I have the deepest conviction that so
far from benefiting Ireland, plausible as it may appear
at first sight to advance English credit and so on, you are
discouraging enterprise and industry in that country by
telling the people to rely upon the Government.—( Hear,
hear.) I make eo objection upon the score of expense,
but I do say it is unfair that Government should interfere
and employ the weight of its credit to injure the capital
already invested.—( Hear.) Take the case mentioned in
vour own report of the gentlemen whose enterprise aid
industry in the establishment of internal communication
were crowned with so much success. If he is competed
with by the applicatiorrorpirivate capital, he cannot com-
plain, but would it not be unfair to apply the credit and
influence of the Government in creating a competition by
which your own Report proves he must inevitably suffer?_-
( Hear, hear.) Your Report states, ‘4 so great are the
powers, and so vast the capabilities of a railroad, that it
must, wherever established, at once supersede the common
road, and not only will all public conveyances be no
longer in use, but will, in all probability, cease to be
employed." Sir, exactly the same consequences would
follow from the establishment of an immense Government
cotton faCtory, in the expectation that it would be a
profitable Government speculation, and I ask is it
lair in a Government to come into competition by the
application of public funds with individuals who
have already employed their capital to the facilities of in-
ternal communication, when the result of that competition
must be their ruin?— ( Hear.) What a claim for compen-
sation will this gentleman have against you. He will say
I am ready to abide by the consequences of that private
competition which I must share with my fellow-subjects,
and I may compete with public companies, but I cannot
.sith the Government ; and if from general considerations,
you think it wise to annihilate my establishment by the
.eight of your public credit, at least do not let me bear the
whole sacrifice, but give inecompeusation for the loss. Sir,
I think the intervention of Government in these matters
ought to be applied with the greatest possible caution and
circumspection, on account of their direct interference
with the existing application of capital, and the unfair ad-
vantage they give to one part of the country over another.
—( Hear, hear.) The Report says, " A railway inter-
secting the country from Dublin, would bring the
cattle of Limerick, Tipperary, &c. within tho reach
of Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham, increasing
the supply to those markets, and improving its quality, and
the profits of the Irish feeders will be proportionably en-
hanced." If it be so, Sir, why cannot the inhabitants of
those counties contribute to the maintenance of the railway.
—( Hear.) What says the Hon. Member for Dundalk ?
Why should the feeders in Lipaerick have this advantage
—why ought not the feeders of Connaught to have cor-
responding advantages ?—( Hear, hear.) The feeders in
Connaught will say—Do not throw upon us the onus of
making the railroads—you have given the feeders of Lime-
rick an unfair advantage, by applying on their behalf the
public capital. Why should not the same assistance be
extended to us ?—( Hear, hear.) Then if you do so, see
what you are about to lay down as a priaciple—that if the

first line be established by the Government all the rest
must be.--( Hear, hear, hear.) When you have
applied the public capital to the construction of
railways in one district, the inhabitants of other
districts will say, you have taxed us by Exchequer Bills—
you have exposed us by the intervention of Government
credit to an unfair competition, and now we ask you, on
the double ground, first of taxation, and next of unfair
competition, but you extend the same measure of assist-
ance to us—reduce the charges on Bills—take the land
from the landed proprietors—advance the public money
—do not urge that it was a losing speculation in the first
instance—it is too late to say that the experiment has failed
—it may have been a losing one to Government—but it is pro-
fitable to the feeders, the Railway will be kept up, profits will
be reduced—the tolls will be reduced—you cannot now say
that no individuals upon the line will benefit; the specula-
tion, upon the whole, will be a losing one, and therefore
you decline continuing it ; you have committed injustice
already, and the only reparation you can make is to extend
to us the same measure of assistance.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir, I do not believe that the gentlemen of Ireland are less
fit than those of England for enterprise, but I believe
that you will make them unfit, by treating them like chil-
dren, as though they had no such spirit.—(hear, hear.)
But you say England is a manufacturing country. Well,
I take the instance of Sussex, and I find that some time
back there was no communication from London to Horsham
but on foot or horseback, the latter not always practicable.
Horsham is thirty-six miles from London, and the
journey now occupies less than four hours—more
than thirty coaches passing to and fro every day,
besides the conveyance of great quantities of coal and
reerieultural produce, and Horsham is the centre of
a district containing about forty towns.—( Hear.)
It appears to me, Sir, that we ought to leave these mat-
ters to private industry and private enterprise; If that be
done, what will take place in various places in Ireland ?
Why, that if the landholders of Munster an I Lcinster are
convinced that the opening of a new line of railway
will be profitable—if they arc only led to believe that their
capital will be followed by a fair return, taking into con-
sideration the probable profit and loss, they will apply to
Parliament for a Bill to make a railroad, which will be un-
der their own controul.—( Hear, hear.) And when they
have made this line—when they have thus been taught to
rely upon their own exertions, their moral improvement will
be ten times greeter than if the old system be adopted, of
appointing a Government Board, with an enormous amount
of patronage, engaged in one of these concerns, under the
expection of its being very profitable, and you will thus
procee4 on the old assumption, that the Irish are an infe-
rior people, and not fit to be entrusted with their own
concerns. Why, if you do this, you will be reversing
your own principle—you ask for municipal institutions
in order to govern yourselves, and then with a short-
sighted policy you consent to your own disqualification,
and ask the Government to do this very thing which is
done at the present day in every part of Great Britain. in
Wales, and in Scotland, without its intervention. " Oh,
no," says the Noble Lord, "it has not been done in Scot-
land—l can bring you an instance of G svernment under-
takings carried on to a large extent there. I can give you
the instance of the Caledonian Canal and the Rideau
Canal." But before the Noble Lord brings forward these
instances I should like to have the account of the net profits
ueon the table of this House.—( Hear, hear.) Now with
respect to the Caledonian Canal if the Right Hoc.
Gent. the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to prove—
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh,
no, I am not.—(Great laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, if these speculations be profitable
why not trust to the enterprise, industry, and love of gain
of the Irish ? If they be unprofitable, let the Right Hon.
Gentleman consider the unfairness of lending the public
credit to unprofitable speculations—let him consider the
injustice of employing the resources of the Government
against the parties who have already invested capital of
their own in private speculations of a similar nature, and
how unfair it would be to interfere with their profits. Sir,
I feel it my duty, however unpopular it may appear at this
moment, to resist this motion. It may appear ungracious,
but for that I don't care ; but I confess it seems to me that
this measure, instead of being a permanent benefit to Ire-
land, will, on the contrary, be productive of much injury.
I will not say that because a Poor-law Bill has passed for
Ireland it would be more desirable to employ a great num-
ber of the poor of that country, if that employment be
only temporary. If that demand for labour be bus tempo-
rary, it will only involve you in difficulty by creating an
unnatural demand for employment. I contend, Sir, that
the demand for labour arising from the natural in-
vestment of private capital and enterprise in
these undertakings will do ten times more good
then the system proposed by the Noble Lori opposite.
Sir, as I have said before, we cannot content ourselves
with the formation of one single line, and it would be im-
possible for us to come to a fair conclusion as to which of
the numerous applications should be attended to. You
cannot content yourself with forming a line in one parti-
cular district—you must open communications with all
parts of the country ; and the first step you take will tie-
' cessarily involve you in this consequence, that you must
take into the hands of Government the whole of the
Railway communication of Ireland. On these grounds,
Sir, seeing plainly the dangerous consequences of this po-
licy, really believing that if peace and tranquillity was
restored to that country—( Loud cheers)—there would
ho application of capital there in the same way as in Eng-
land ; seeing that this will not give satisfaction to the
people of Ireland in general, doubting the policy in this
individual case of a departure from the general principle,
which is applicable to the other parts of the country, I
must express strong doubts of the policy and expediency
of the measure which the Noble Lord proposes, and
which, although it may be popular now, will in ten years
after it has passed into a law, be considered productive
of great injury to that part of the country in which be ex-
presses so deep an interest, and which he wishes to see
prosper. I beg to express my entire dissent from the
Noble Lord's proposition.—(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
only make a few observations on the subject before the
House, because there would be abundant opportunities of
discussing the question on future occasions. He assured
the Right Hon. Hon. Gentleman (and ho spoke with
the most sincere respect for his high authority on
all questions, that he never beard a speech in the whole
course of his life which astonished him snore, coming
from that Right Hun. Gentleman above all other men who
had been so long concerned in the administration of affairs
in Ireland, and bound to know, as well as knowing the
principle on which the Government with which he was
connected and subsequent Governments had proceeded—
he never felt so much astonishment as at the principle
which had been laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
—( Hear, hear.) The observations of the Right Hon.
Gentleman were observations, which if true were not ap-
plicable to the system of railroads—to ordinary roads or
canals; but the main principle which was in debate on the
present occasion was, whether it was wise or just
or expedient for the Government to interpose, either
by a grant of public money or an advance of
public credit, least they might come into competition with
private credit or capital, in the execution of public works
in Ireland. He should advert hereafter to the application
of that principle to railroads, but first he should grapple
with the Right Hon. Gentleman's own statements. If
there was one principle more than another, which every
succeeding Government had recognised with respect to
the internal improvements in Ireland, it was the applica-
tion of the credit of that country in aid of public works;
and the statutes which had been administered by the Right
Hon. Gentleman himself, during the whole course of his Go-
vernment in Ireland—statutes which bad been introduced
by the late Lord Oriel (Mr. Forster), with respect to
mail-coach roads in Ireland, and which had been carried
into operation by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
the University ef Cambridge, much further than previously,
provided, that it was expedient where a case bad been
made out, that the capital of England might be expended
in the promotion of public wori• sin Ireland. Therefore for
the last 38 years the principle against which the Right Hon.
Gentleman contended, viz., the application of the capital
of that country for the purpose of promoting Internal com-
munication in Ireland, had been uniformly acted upon, and
so far from being new, as the Right Hon. Gentleman imas
gined, and now applied for the first time, the p; inciple had
been long tried and long approved of and adopted without
complaint. Complaint? why if he had said so, he would
underrate the application of the principle. On the con-
trary, successive Committees of that House—successive Go-
vernments and the public at large had recognized the benefit
of that application of capital as a source of great benefit to
Ireland. He would take the Hon. Gentleman on his own
showing, anal he was glad when an enterprising and spirited
individual such as Mr. Bianconi was named for that pur-
pose. He should like to know where Mr. Bianconi would
have been, but for the application of the capital of Eng-
land ? If the Right Honourable Gentleman only looked
at the papers on the table of that House, he would find
that there was not one car of Mr. Bianconi running on any
single road, which road had not been improved by that
capital.—( Hear.) He would not refer to authorities of the
present time, but he would refer to the Reports on public
works on Ireland, which had been laid on the table of the
House during the administration of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman, the Member for Cambridge. He would
refer to the Reports of Mr. Nimmo, and other en-
gineers employed by successive and preceding Go-
vernments, and they would tell him that there would
be no development of the internal resources of Ireland
if it were not for the application of that capital. Would
the Right Hon. Gentleman tell him, if the principle was
admitted by the House, would not the objection be equally
strong against any expenditure of the public money in or-
dinary roads as upon railroads. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man seemed to think that he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had assumed that the Caledonian and Rideau
Canals were profitable—he certainly did riot think so.
He would leave it to the gentlemen who had undertaken
them, and the Government who had sanctioned them—he
would leave to them what he believed would be the difficult
task of defending them. He had not the honour of a seat
in Parliament when the first measure was passed, and with
respect to the other, he had the honour of co-operating with
his Noble Friend opposite in protesting against the whole
measure, and opposing it above all in the way in which this
work was carried on; and he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) was not now called upon in the slightest degree
to defend the'one or the other. He would confine himself
to the proposition now before the House. With respect
to the proposition now laid down, that the State should
not interpose in private speculations of that nature; as a
general principle be quite concurred in that, and those
who defended the interposition of the State in works of
that kind, were called upon in the first instance to prove
the utility of the object they had in view. Even if it was
not useful to particular individuals, or to the whole of the
Queen's subjects, yet if it had such a general character of
usefulness as would give it a fair claim upon the Govern-
ment, it should be supported. He agreed with the
Right Honourable Baronet that there should be good
grounds for employing the resources of the Govern
ment in the promotion of works which might be
brought into unfair competition with private capital.
In order to justify the interference of the State, it would
be necessary to prove-Ist. That the work proposed was
for the benefit of the country ; thateartwroynegpve on odf to a
public absithroefirst
propositon that must be made out
to
justify the Stet(
making
work.
any
The2d
grant
propositiontassisto in the
necessary