The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-03 00:00:00

COURT OF ADMIRALTY.

Mr. HUME gave notice that, on the Report
upon this Bill, he should take the sense of the
House on the two questions which he had tried last
night ; both respecting the 4,0001., and the Judge not
sitting in that House.

On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE the
Lords Amendments to the Scotch Sequestration Act
were agreed to.
__ __

CANADA.

Mr. HUME inquired if it were true that 80 or 90
political offenders in Upper Canada had recently been
sentenced to transportation to New South Wales.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he could not,
with due respect to what he owed to the interests
ofthe public serice, give a distinct reply to that ques-
tion, without prefacing his answer by a short
statement, and reminding the House of the position
in which Sir J. Colborne had been placed. In
November last, when Sir J. Colborne had arrived at
Montreal, he found the whole town in such a state, that
information was received that there were 3,000 men
ready to rise on a certain day, being bound by secret
oaths. The surrounding districts were in a state of
rebellion ; murder and outrage were prevalent every
where.—(Hear, hear.) The loyal subjects of the
British Crown were flocking into the town from
all quarters in a state of panic ; so that it was
requisite that he shitiuld instantly adopt rigorous mea-
sures for restoring the authority of Government. Con-
sequently, numerous arrests took place. In Montreal
alone 800 persons had been confined.—(Hear, hear.)
The next question was, bow these persons should be
dealt with. The object of Sir J. Colborne was, to shed
as little human blood as possible, consistently with the
preservation of peace in the colony.—(Hear, hear.)
He issued a commission composed of four bar-
risters, to make a previous examination into the
charges, to see if any circumstances could justify their
liberation. The result was, that the greater number
were immediately liberated—(Hear, hear)—the rest
were tried by Court-martial, and about 100 of them
were capitally convicted of high treason, but only
twelve underwent the extreme sentence of the law,
and of these only six were charged with political offences
merely ; the other six were guilty of murder
also. The question then became, what measure
of punishment should be allotted to the remainder.
This was the course pursued, and he believed the con-
duct of Sir John Colborne in this transaction was not
more distinguished by justice than sagacity and firmness.
It was his intention to lay on the table of the House all
the despatches he had received from that Gallant Officer,
because he was satisfied the reading of these dispatches
would make the same impression on the minds of Hon.
Members that it had done upon the Government ; this
conduct had been approved of and supported by the
Government, because they felt convinced that Sir J.
Colborne had done his duty properly.
Mr. HUME said the opinion that had just been ex-
pressed was contrary to that entertained by nine-tenths
of the inhabitants of Lower Canada, who were of opi-
nion that his conduct had been cruel in the extreme.
He wished to know whether it was true that Mr.
Viger, a distinguished member of the House of As-
sembly, and upwards of sixty years of age, had been
kept a prisoner upwards of a year.
Mr. LABOUCHERE was sorry that so distin-
guished an individual should have suffered so long an
imprisonment, but he believed, under the circumstances,
Sir J. Colborne had no other course to pursue. Mr.
Vigor had been arrested upon suspicion, but he was
repeatedly offered to be allowed to leave the prison pro-
vided he would give security for his good behaviour.
He (Mr. L.) felt bound to say that Sir J. Colborne
could not, consistently with his public duty, have fol-
lowed any other course.
Sir R. PEEL hoped that the House would not be
allowed to rise without the Government proposing to
give the thanks of the House to Sir J. Colborne, for
the manner in which he consented to accept the go-
vernment of Canada, for the energy be had displayed,
and especially for the manner in which be bad dis-
charged the duties of Civil Government.
Mr. LEADER begged to say one word with re-
spect to the case of Mr. Vigor ; he bad been impri-
soned for one twelve months, and he was then offered
his liberty on condition that he gave security for his
good behaviour for twelve months. He declined,
and demanded his trial, which was refused, he
conceiving himself to be innocent. He begged to ask
the Hon. Under-Secretary one question. Did he not
think that the promise of pardon contained in the pro-
clamation of Lord Durham had been broken by the
transportation of these men to New South Wales. It
was at once unjust and harsh that they should
be transported to New South Wales at once with-
out being sent to this country where they might
have appealed to the Superior Courts, and have proba-
bly obtained their discharge, as others had done.
Mr. LABOUCHERE—The answer to that clues-
_

tion was, that these troubles began in Lower Canada,
and that the offences of these parties were committed
before the proclamation of Lord Durham.
Mr. WALLACE begged to ask the Honourable
Gentleman whether there yet had ever been any
settlement of the mercantile matters at Pera. Had any
compensation yet been made for the destruction of British
property ? A report was abroad that the subjects of
other nations had received compensation.
Lord PALMERSTON believed that these reports
were unfounded. In November last he had sent in-
structions to our Charge d'Affaires, to which he had
not received any reply. He had recently instructed
the Charge d'Affaires to press for a definite answer, and
hoped soon to receive a satisfactory one.
TRADE WITH CHINA.

Sir R. PEEL begged to ask the Noble Lord whe-
ther he had yet received any official intelligence of recent
circumstances which it was reported had taken place at

Canton.

Lord PALMERSTON said the Government were
as yet without any official intelligence from Canton.
Despatches had come by privato ships, but the Govern-
ment knew nothing more than others did. At the same
time it was right to say that some time ago the Govern-
ment received notice that the Chinese Government were
determined to take steps to put an end to the opium trade
—that they had executed a Chinese porter, who was
seen carrying a chest of that drug, so that it was pro-
bable there might be truth in the reports.
AMERICAN BOUNDARY.

Sir ROBERT PEEL—Would the Noble Lord
inform the House how the question stood with
respect to the disputed boundary question, he meant
generally. He understood a Commission had been
appointed for a survey of the disputed territory—bad
the American Government appointed any corresponding
Commission ?
Lord PALMERSTON said the American Go-
vernment had proposed a Commission to survey
the whole of the disputed territory, to which
her Majesty's Government had consented, with some
modifications, which that Government had also
agreed to. The Government thought the Commission
could not act with satisfaction without a previous con-
vention between the two countries, and accordingly,
in spring, he had sent a draught of a convention to
our Minister at 'Washington, for the purpose of its
being laid before the American Government. It was
laid before them, but as yet they bad returned
no answer, they being under the necessity of
consulting the State of Maine upon the question.
Her Majesty's Government thought that in that state
of things it would be extremely desirable to take ad-
vantage of the present summer for the purpose
of acquiring more correct information as to the
nature of the country in dispute, than they had
yet possessed ; and, therefore, they bad sent
out two persons acting entirely under the orders
of, and responsible to the British Government,
solely for the purpose of procuring topographical
information for the use of the Go
greatervernmen length of
Government, thinking
that if the matter should lead to any
negociation, it would be of essential importance that
they should have a Correct knowledge of the country
in dispute.

WAR IN THE EAST.
Sir R. PEEL inquired whether the Noble Lord
thought it probable that any communication would be
made to Parliament by the Government explanatory of

EVENING EDITIO
247

_1
the state of affairs in the East ? He thought w
most important that Parliament should not self
without information on the subject.
Lord PALMERSTON was quite aware otAtit-
great importance of the matter to which the 11.4
Hon. Baronet had alluded, and it certainly was very
natural that Parliament should wish to be put in pos-
session of any information that could be properly com-
municated. At the same time he was afraid that in the
present state of those affairs it would not be in the power
of the Government, consistently with that practice,
the expediency of which was felt by all, to make any
communication, because this was not a matter in which
the English Government were alone concerned. It
was a matter which affected the interests of all Europe,
and thefive great Powers of Europe, feeling that it deeply
interested them, had entered into communications with
each other. Of course those communications being pending
it would be improper to communicate details until some
result was arrived at. At the same time he had
the satisfaction of assuring the House that as far as
those communications which had taken place be-
tween her Majesty's Government and the Govern-
ments of France, Austria, Prussia, and Russia had
gone, there was no difference of opinion whatever,
but all were animated by the same desire to maintain
npoe
na
lcde ,
oannd all l y b weree maintained
athat the p
as regarded
regar
de d
thoseeace of
affairsE u r Europe
upholding the independence and integrity of the Turkish
empire.
Mr.
reports
he had any
HUMSobjection wished
to a
t o lay
onskthe
tbe Noble
table the
Lord
of
affairs of the East.
Dr. Bowring, relative to the commercial and financial

Lord PALMERSTON had wished he had time to
read the reports, and they were still in manuscript. He
believed they were full of much useful information,
and he had no doubt they would be laid before the
House.

NEW SOUTH WALES BILL.
Mr. WARD wished to ask the Noble Lord whether
any time was fixed for the third reading of the New
South Wales Bill, as he believed considerable- discus-
sion would arise upon it.
Lord J. RUSSELL had intended it should be
taken the first thing on Monday, but after the intima-
tion of the Hon. Member that considerable discussion
would take place upon it, he must reconsider it.—
(Laughter.)

INCREASE OF TROOPS.-COMMITTEE OF

SUPPLY.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in rising to move the
Order of the Day fcr the Committee of Supply, said
he thought that was an opportunity on which he
ought to avail himself for the purpose of stating
the general reasons which had induced her Majesty's
Government, at this late period of the Session, to pro-
pose an increase in the military force. In so doing, he
should speak very generally and shortly of the state of
our foreign possessions, so far as they required military
force to protect them, and then proceed to a statement
relating to that part of the Government with which he
was more immediately connected, viz. the internal
affairs of the country. With respect to our foreign
possessions, the Right Honourable Gentleman had
just alluded to a question of very great importance,
viz., the state of affairs in the East. Upon that it was
not necessary that he should say more than that a
question, involving the interests of all the powers of
Europe, and upon which they must all be called upon
to deliberate, was one which, so long as it continued,
and until it was settled satisfactorily, must na-
turally cause anxiety and create an unwillirgness
to diminish the forces of the country. But
there were two parts of our possessions with
respect to which military force had been required of
late years. In India a war had taken place threatening
at first an alliance against the British power in India,
of Chiefs formidable from their military means—formi-
dable from their connection with Persia—formidable
from a supposed and implied protection from one
of the powers of Europe. That latter danger however
had been dispelled by that Power disclaiming all parti-
cipation in the alliance ; but what had been already
done required that the Government of India should
take some steps of energy and decision, in
order to free our colonies from the danger
that was threatened. He did not wish to enter
into the policy that was pursued any further than as it re-
garded the immediate question before the House, viz.,the
military force which had been employed in the operations.
The Governor-General of India had thought it neces-
sary to retain in India those forces which, in the ordi-
nary course of relief, would, two months ago, have
arrived in this country. With respect to a more dis-
tant quarter of the globe, the West, every one knew
the events which had taken place in Canada, and the
necessity which existed, although there was no imme-
diate insurrection in that province, that after
the events which had taken place in the commence-
ment of the winter before last, and of the last
winter, it would be the height of imprudence to di-
minish by a single company the troops which had been
sent to that quarter of the world in order to defend
British authority and British interests. He had stated
these matters in order to show how impossible it was
to withdraw from distant possessions the forces which
were now required to maintain those possessions, and
still more to show that it was necessary to main-
tain a considerable force at home, in order that
we might be prepared with an army which was able to
furnish those supplies which might be required, when we
had to engage enemies in such distant quarters of
the world, and when our army was so inconsiderable
in numbers compared with those kept up by great
military powers. Another consequence of the reinforce-
ments required in our distant possessions was to weaken
the efficiency of our forces at home. A certain num-
ber of men were kept in the service companies and at
home in our depot companies. It was necessary for the
efficiency of these companies that they should not be
reduced below a certain amount of men. Many of
these depot companies consisted only of 139 men, and
others of 120, but, in order to be efficient, these com-
panies ought not to consist of less than 200 ; but there
was another reason connected with the present inter-
nal state of the country, which required frequent
detachments to be made, and prevented that regular dis-
cipline in order to make these companies efficient. It
was necessary, therefore, that he should now mention
the present state of the country, because the
Honourable Member for Kilkenny had given notice
of a resolution which would entirely deny the necessity
of the increase of our military force, pointing out the
course which the Hon. Member affirmed was the best cal-
culated to preserve the public peace, and make it unnecess
sary to add to the military force of the country. There
had been for a considerable time an attempt made with
great perseverance, with great industry, and at no in-
considerable cost, to excite disaffection to the laws of
the country. That attempt had taken very different
shapes. In the first instance, it assumed a form en-
tirely different from that which at present existed. Every
one was aware of the agitation which had lately existed
with respect to what had been called the People's
Charter, with respect to a change in the representation,
and various matters affecting the political form of
our Constitution. But the first attempts were made
to excite the people against the Poor-law Amend-
ment Act.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Now it was
competent, with respect to the force of our representa-
tion, or any political question, to promulgate opinions
contrary to those which had been adopted by the legis-
lature, and seek a change in the laws, but a very dif-
ferent course was taken by many parties. They
said they were so injured by that law—that it was so
contrary to the Constitution and to the abstract prin-
ciples of justice—that it was not, as an ordinary law
entitled to obedience, and that wherever it was
proposed to be carried into effect the pe07,1,e were
entitled to resist it. That doctrine 'with respect
to any law was against all subordination and obedience.
One person in particular (afterwards combined with
others) openly pursued and avowed this course—Mr.
Oastler, who, although he did not connect himself with
the supporters of Universal Suffrage, and chose from
caprice to call himself a Tory, was connected
with various grades and societies of the working
classes, and told them that they were entitled to resist
the new Poor-law, and to have arms for their defence
against those who attempted to enforce this law. This
fell in with various other persons who had addressed
themselves to the people as to the employment of fac-
tory labour, and the social condition of the country ;
among others, a certain Mr. Stephens, who termed
himself a Dissenting Minister, and in a chapel held
misguided
forth those doctrines which he wished the people to
is
follow—without alluding to those discourses for which
the Gospel, told the
be was now under prosecution, to show the length to
followers,—
thisantdted duringp t eteda tc oh
telher
ea dofh
continuance of the New
Poor-law, and various other •
laws, which he
called oppressive,—the Divine
commandments, " Thou
peoplewhic hp
hr
eetti
shalt not kill,"--and " Thou shalt not steal,"—..
were suspended, and of no force.—(Hear.) As n.ight
naturally be expected, these doctrines had a most per-
nicious effect in encouraging the people, in vast
num-
bers, to combine, for certain political doctrines, as that
of Universal Suffrage, Annual Parliaments, and other
measures considered by them to be necessary for the
welfare of the State. For these doctrines they
had already been sufficiently prepared. They were
first told, with regard to the Poor-law question, that
whether they were industrious or idle—whether the
country were prosperous or distressed—they were each
of them entitled to receive from the State a full main-
tenance and support, and that the State were bound,
under all circumstances, to 'provide for them.—(Hear.)
and in the next place these were accompanied by certain
political doctrines, teaching them that every manhad an
equal right to vote in the choice of Representatives,
and that by the Representatives so chosen, the country
should be governed, in order that every person might
have an equal share in the Representation. Meetings had
been held for the purpose of the propagation of these
doctrines meetings calculated to creatcoon the minds of
the peaceable and well disposed feelings of alarm—he
torch-light meetings which had been held
alluded to the tore
at the commencement of the present year—meetings
which were held at night by persons carrying torches in
procession under circumstances of terror calculated

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ENTBNING EDITION.

to alarm the peaceable inhabitants of the districts in
the neighbourhood of which these meeting had been
held. A proclamation was issued by her Majesty, de-
claring such meetings illegal, and the authorities were
desired to be vigilant in their suppression. They were
immediately discontinued, as those who held them had
no means of resisting the enforcement of these direc-
tions. Other meetings, accompanied with circum-
stances of terror and alarm, were held in various
populous places in different parts of the coun-
try. For a time these meetings also had been
suppressed by, means of proclamations and by orders
issued to the Lords Lieutenant and Magistrates of the
County to put the law in force. For a time the
spirit of agitation seemed to have subsided, but at the
same time those who had been leaders in this movement
and the broachers of these doctrines, became exceedingly
active and industrious, and lost no opportunity in dis-
seminating their 1 opinions, and suited their doc-
trines with considerable art to the circumstances
of the different parts of the country in which they held
their meetings. In agrtcultural parts of the country, where
although they had not been very successful, they had yet
met oseasionally with some little encouragement, they
taught the labourer that he was emitted to an equal
partition of property, and that all the land in the coun-
try ought to be divided equally among all the labourers.
In the manufacturing districts they declared with equal
violence against the manufacturers and large proprietors,
These proceedings were certainly not unexampled in the
history of this country. At various periods similar
agitation had been excited among the working classes.
It had always appeared to him that in similar circum-
stances it was inadvisable to make any sudden change
in the laws, and to make on that account what were
called in some countries Laws of Exception. These
always produced two bad effects. In the first
place, they excited the sympathy of those persons
who would not otherwise be disposed to have any feel-
ing in common with those persons ; and, in the next
place, the people of this country were disposed to allow
the power of the laws, and were ready to yield it obedi-
ence ; yet if a law were made for the occasion, and
intended for the suppression of their own parti-
cular society, they would not feel that they had
been treated with the same fairness as if the laws
of the country had been brought to bear upon them.
While he had always held these opinions he thought
there was a power in the ordinary law of the country
that might be exerted to put down such mischievous
projects. The experience that he had had taught him
that although the laws were sufficiently strong yet there
was a great difficulty in putting these laws into effect
and operation ; in proof of that he would advert to an ,
instance with regard to which many observations had
been made.—(Hear, hear.) He alluded to the violent
speeches which had been made on various occasions.
Every one must see in the newspapers that the strong-
est- language had been used, and the strongest excite-
ment to rebellion and crime had taken place. The
natural observation on such language was that it was
seditious, if not treasonable ; but the obtaining
of evidence of the use of such language was not so easy
as was imagined. They could not call upon the Re-
porters to give evidence of the language they reported,
they were there upon sufferance, and could not be
called upon to give information, without there
was original evidence, which they • could corro-
borate. Another instance of difficulty was. that
when persons gate information, and the mo-
ment proceedings were instituted they became objects
of persecution in the neighbourhood in which they re-
sided, and their lives were rendered unhappy by being
driven by this violence from that part of the country.
In some instances they had been maltreated, especially
in Lancashire. It might be that good evidence might
be given by strangers. Certainly strangers might be
sent to these meetings which professed to be open
ones, but if they were, those who called
them would take care to watch any person whom
they conceived to be against their own way of think-
ing, and either by force or annoyance would drive
them away. But when the evidence was procured,
then came the question whether that evidence was
sufficient to make out to the satisfaction of a
Jury what had taken place, so that a verdict might
be obtained. With respect to several of these speeches
of a most violent nature, the law officers of the Crown
had advised him, no doubt correctly, that although the
proceedings were illegal, yet that there was no likeli-
hood of a verdict being obtained in a Court of Justice.
Such was the difficulty of putting in force the laws
against these seditious meetings. The consequence
was that these meetings had continued, and with respect
to some of them the persons had been committed for
the offences they had committed at those meetings. He
would not advert more to that subject because they
would shortly come under the decision of the Courts of
Law. He had stated already that proceedings had
keen instituted, but notwithstanding that no stop
std been put to the various meetings that
had taken place. So far from their having
subsided, owing to the circumstances that had ,
taken place at Birmingham, there had been a great in-
crease of the excitement and violence. Various means
I lied been adopted by those who were dissatisfied with
1 she law to excite terror. They had done every thing
( is their power to make an appearance of force,
I a
and to induce the great majority opposed to them to
be quiescent, and allow them to carry their plans into
effect without resistance. Various modes had been
adopted for that purpose : one was the ostentatious ex-
hibition of arms, pikes, daggers, and dangerous
weapons. Although these appearances were exag-
gerated, there was no doubt a considerable number
iof pikes manufactured, and a great proportion
of fire-arms in connection with the Chartists.
For the contribution of a shilling or a sixpence they
gave certificates which lasted for a certain time, say for
a few weeks, or a month. That was entirely contrary
to the law, and very properly the Magistrates, in seve-
ral places, had arrested the individuals so acting. But
on the other hand, contributions had been made by parties
who were afraid to come forward and give evidence
that such contributions had been forced from them by
terror or compulsion. In other places training and
drilling had taken place, and one mode which they had
adopted within this last fortnight, in order to show
their strength, was to go in great numbers to
the parish church where they displaced the usual
occupants of the pews, but without interrupting divine
service—they went merely in order to show that they
were in considerable numbers. A stilt more dangerous
symptom had appeared within these last few days.
Formerly there were great differences amongst them—
there was a great want of concert between individuals,
belonging to those Societies ; but of late they had
had shown a more regular organization. 'They had
now Societies in connection with one another in small
numbers, who selected one from their own body ; and
from those selected, a committee of 5 or 7 were appointed
to meet in London, and who were to direct the wieole
body. Combined with all this, there was the body called
the General Convention, which met for the avowed
purpose of preparipg and presenting a petition to that
House. But since that petition had been presented
and decided upon by the House they had met several
times, they had issued addresses and placards to the
public, evidently intended to produce an alteration in
the Constitution and the law, by combination, violence,
and terror. Whether it assumed the form or name of
a sacred month, whether it was calling upon the people
to arm or take their money from the Savings' Banks, it
was perfectly apparent that the general object was, by
means of terror and confusion, to create a change in
the laws governing society. All these things betokened
very considerable danger, and he would take that op-
portunity of stating in what that danger consisted. It
did not consist, as far as he saw, in any grievance
which might be in the power of Parliament to redress.
The Hon. Member for Kilkenny no doubt would tell
them there was some grievance, by the redress of which
they could give satisfaction to the masses and put an
end to the present disturbed state of the country. His
(Lord John Russelrs):opinion was, that from their own
statements, there was- no remedy which that House
could give which would remove their supposed griev-
ances. Their complaints ib all their placards and
speeches are not against the laws, but against the con-
stitution of society.—(Cheers.) They complain that
as society is constituted they have not a sufficient quan-
tity of the wealth, the means, and the resources of
society, and they demand a change of the laws, a new
state of society, by which their happiness may be in-
creased. His opinion was that there was no law which
they could pass which Ixou lct tend toimprove the condition
of the working classes according to their own wishes.
He was then speakingea not of any single change in the
law, but he Was speaking of a total change in society in
y. andhisopinion was, that any such violent
increase change would only distress, and add to the num-
-1 ber of the distressed
wouldand while they destroyed the
means of the rich, they.at the same time destroy
the welfare and comfort o the
that any success of theirs He fully believed
wouuerlAlpeonoonrly increase their own
grievances and their own b
thing by which the working classes could hope to live
If there was any-
in comfort, it would be in consequence
of
fice of large funds
being devoted to the employ
labour, owing to
the general confidence felt in the security the insti-
yGovvhich had
insti-
tutions of the State, and that civilization
or distrust
long grown up under the stability of a free
--(Cheers.) The first effect of any doubt
as to the stability of these institutions—of any aust
weaken-
ing the title to property—of any dissolving of the con-
dence that men had in the security of their capital--
either in manufactures or commerce, or land—the first
effect of that would be, not so much to injure those
who had large fortunes, the greater proportion of
which perhaps they could remove, but to injure
such as were dependent upon the capital devoted
to the employment of labour.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Next, it appeared that the danger arose not from

any general Opinion or conviction of the people at large,
but it was only the attempt of a small minority—and it
was only endeavouring to terrify and create alarm in
the minds of the rest, that any of those who were really
attached to the institutions of the country, and to quiet,
security, and peace, at all joined in these proceedings.—
(Hear, hear.) Now first, the object must be to give
satisfaction to those who had real cause for discontent ;
and secondly, to give, by all means possible, security and

confidence to the great mass of the people who did not
sympathise in these attempts at disturbance.—(Hear,
hear.) It was desirable to avoid, as long as possible,
and as much as possible the introduction of new laws.—
(Hear, hear.) But while our laws were well adapted as
a whole for the maintenance of freedom and for the pre-
servation of tranquillity—the means of public instruction
bad not kept pace with the increase of the popula-
tion, and that in many districts, especially the ma-
facturing, there were large masses who had grown up
in a state of society, that was lamentable, if not appal-
ling, to contemplate.—(Hear, hear.) It was not a
society growing up with its usual forbearance—with its
places of worship—with its persons of property leading
the way in every social and charitable object—with its
fair and gradual subordination of ranks—but it was, in
many instances, a society nearly all composed of working
classes, with certain persons with whom they had little
connection in rank or subordination, and unhappily
neither receiving in schools or at places of worship that
religious and moral instruction which was necessary for
knitting together the inhabitants and classes of a great
country. It was with respect to those classes of society
that he should say they differed from the former consti-
tution of English society, that means were ne-
cessary to preserve them from sudden excitement, and
that while the House ought, by every means possible,
to take measures which in future might bring them
more within the confines and boundaries in which
society was generally conducted, they should provide
that by no sudden outbreak might property be en-
dangered, and that society should not even in its re-
motest fibre, feel the consequences of that alarm. The
object of one measure be had proposed was, that in
future they should endeavour to have a better means
of taking care that the laws were preserved by placing
at the disposal of the Magistrates a better organized
constabulary force. There had been within these
few days cases in which the Magistrates had been
obliged to meet the dangers which they had to encounter,
and had only been enabled to meet them, first, by
having such a constabulary force, and, secondly, by the
military support they had received. He had in: his hand
statements which he had received only that morning
with regard to certain occurrences that had taken place-
He would give the substance of the correspondence
that had taken place during the last three months, but
which it would be exceedingly irksome to give in
detail. He had received a private letter from
Stockport, stating what had occurred there. The
writer stated, that about two o'clock -yester-
day he had received an application from two
Magistrates ; that at twelve o'clock last night he bad
received a requisition for a company to prevent the
rescue of a case of arms, which had just arrived at the
coach office. A number of pikes and daggers were
seized, but the crowd attempted to rescue, and it was
not improbable that some attempt would be made to
regain the arms and set the men at liberty who had
been apprehended. The Mayor of Newcastle, in allu-
sion to some disturbances which had taken place there,
when the mob marched into that town, stated that the
police seized some of the banners and apprehended some
of the men—that the dragoons dispersed the mob and
cleared the ground, and that there was a general
wish on the part of the special constables to
be armed and trained as a Rifle Corps. These
documents showed that when they had con-
stables who were ready to do their duty, and when
they were supported by a sufficient military force, there
need be no apprehension. He was persuaded that the
inhabitants of the various towns looked for protection
from the Government, and the law of the land—( Hear,
hear)—and the Government were bound to support
them while they were pursuing their peaceful avocations.
If they were so supported, these attempts, which had
been made by persons of the very worst character,
would totally fail of their effect. He felt confident
that the laws of this country, although in many cases it
might be difficult to put them in force, were sufficient
to preserve the tranquillity of the country, and that
these tumults would pass away. But when he
was asked for a military force in the present insufficient
state of the constabulary force of the countr,y he felt
it necessary to ask the House to give the increase that
was required. He asked them therefore in support of
the laws, in support of the institutions of the country, to
increase our military force even at this late period of
the Session, and he felt confident that the House of
Commons would respond to the appeal of the Govern-
ment on the subject. At all events,.he felt that even
if it were necessary to introduce any extraordinary laws,
or to subject themselves to any imputation on the
grounds of taking extraordinary powers in the present
state of the country, they were hound by every means
to maintain the state of tranquillity in this country—
to maintain the state of society which now existed—to
maintain the Institutions of the country. They ought not
to allow them to be overborne by these lawless attempts
by conspirators of the worst and most worthless cha-
racter, and above all, they ought not, in this state of the
country, and with these dangers before them, to show
any disposition to shrink from those dangers, or avoid
encountering them with firmness and resolution.
Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON thought that the
time was now come when he could call the attention of
the House to the petition of Mr. R. Milner which he
had presented some time since.—(Loud cries of " No,
no !") He should certainly not give way ; he had very
frequently been disappointed in bringing it forward, and
as he had given notice that he should bring the subject
forward, he should certainly not give way to any

murmurs.
Mr. HUME rose to order.—The Noble Lord had
specially alluded to a motion which he (Mr. flume)
had expressed his intention of bringing forward, and as
that was a subject of vital importance to the country
at large, he trusted the Gallant Admiral would give
way.

Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON was not disposed
to yield, and be thought his Hon. Friend had not exhi-
bited his usual sense in interfering with the Order of the
Day. Mr. Milner stated in 1821 he had been accused
in a letter to the Lords of the Admiralty of having given
a power of attorney to a certain person named Sam. Alex-
ander. The question which he (Sir E. Codrington) had to
bring forward was of vital importance to the moral ser-
vice, and must therefore be of greater importance to
the country than anything which could fall from the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny, and it was rather indeco-
cous in that Hon. Gentleman to interrupt him. Mr.
Milner having been called upon for explanation had
stated that he had never heard of any such transaction
as he was accused of—that the Admiralty, if they
possessed proof of it should produce that proof—that
if the transaction had occurred they must necessarily
possess proof, seeing that no half pay was ever.paid,
without the person receiving it signing his name in a
book which they kept. They could produce no such
evidence—they had never divulged the name of the ac-
cuser. Mr. Milner could prove that he was utterly
ignorant of the person to whom it was said he had pre-
sented the affidavit, &c.—yet he had been condemned
and punished in the dark—and at the instigation of
' some person behind the scenes. Was it not therefore
a just application that a Committee should be appointed
to examine into the case ?
The motion having been put from the Chair,
Mr. C. WOOD said he could add nothing to what
he had repeatedly stated before, viz., that this was a
transaction with which the present Admiralty had not
had anything to do. That in 1821 there was an accu-
sation against Mr. Milner for a swindling transaction—
that the then Board had, on careful examination, found
it well founded—and that succeeding Boards had con-
firmed their decision, on renewed investigation. More-
over, he objected on principle to making this House
the appeal from the award of a competent tribunal.
The House divided, and the numbers were—
For the Motion
Against it 62
Majority
Mr. HUME, upon the question that the Speaker
do now leave the Chair, rose and said he regretted that

the interlude which had just arisen should have pre-
vented him from addressing the House after the speech

of the Noble Lord, when the House was more full:—(It
was nearly empty, scarcely 40 Members being present.)
He differed very greatly from what had been expressed
by the Noble Lord, as to measures proper to be adopted
in the present crisis of affairs. But he felt bound to

express his satisfaction that the Government did no

intend to propose any new legislative measures.—(Hear,
hear.) That considerably lessened what in his (Mr.
Hume's) judgment was their undue and unnecessary
severity. One result he thought might be derived
from the partial outrages which had arisen in the
country, and from the course pursued by the Noble
Lord,lthat those who supported Universal Suffrage, and
similar measures, would only retard the attainment
of their objects, by creating disturbances in the country.
These persons might have been misled by ardent and
perhaps dangerous men. He was convinced that every
effort at physical force would check instead of advance
the changes of which they were desirable. He was
exceedingly desirous of maintaining the public peace,
and he agreed with the Noble Lord that in the main-
tenance of it the working classes themselves were more
interested than any part of the community. Their at-
tacks upon capital were also exceedingly improper, as
the labouring classes could only be employed. by the
application of capital. He was pleased to think that
no such attacks upon capital had been made within the
last year, and this he looked upon as a symptom of re-
turning good sense in those classes. The Noble Lord
had very properly remarked that the origin of the present
agitation began with an agitation against the New Poor-
law Act, but the Chartist agitation was very different ;
those who commenced the agitation against the Poor-law
Act had no right to the denomination of Reformers,
but they
were, as they stated themselves to be, Con-
servatives to the fullest extent. He did not think that
Stephens and Oastler ought to be confounded with
the Chartists ; they had nothing in common except
their hatred of the Poor-law Bill and the Factory Bill.
H. e could not consider the Chartists, simply as Char-
tists ; arid he must say the Noble Lord had not done
them justice. He denied the statement of the Noble
Lord that these men, as a body, were desirous of des-
troying or plundering the property of others. There
was no authority for any such statement to be found
in any of the authorised documents of the Chartists.

lie agreed with the Noble Lord that their organisation I
was very complete, and therefore he begged this House
not to turn away from them, but to consider their
statements, and see if anything could not be accorded to
them to afford them relief and to allay their dissatisfac-
tion. They sought for that which both the Noble
Lord and Lord Grey had frequently declared to be
the right of every Englishman—that no free man should
be taxed without having a voice in the choice of his
Representatives—if he had not such a voice, he could
not be considered as a freeman, but must be taken to
belong to the slave class. These persons were deprived
of the rights which the Constitution gave them—for as
every Englishman owed allegiance to his Sovereign,'and
to the laws, so he had a right to look for pro-
tection for himself and his rights from the Sove-
reign and the laws in return, and it was because the
House had refused those rights to the mass of the
people that the present dissatisfaction had arisen.
The Constitution gave every Englishman the right of
having arms, but then those arms should be used to
support the laws, and in return, they were en-
titled to all the benefits of the Constitution ; and he
thought the Noble Lord would find he could not keep
down the people without granting the reforms for which
they prayed. He was no advocate for disorder, and
considered that all riots should be put down even out
of mercy to the rioters themselves He was as anxious
as the Noble Lord for the preservation of peace and
good order. He was sorry, therefore, to see that the
Noble Lord proposed an increase of the military force,
without any measures of amelioration or reform ac-
companying it. Let them recollect that a petition had
been presented to that House praying for re-
form, signed by 1,289,959 persons—(Hear, hear)—
a greater number than had ever before petitioned the
House on that subject. Last Session he had endea-
voured to call the attention of the House to this sub-
ject, but the House had turned a deaf ear to what he
had stated, and even at the beginning of the present
Session they had rejected the amendment to the ad-
dress proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Finsbury. The country had been brought to its pre-
sent state by the negligence of the Ministers, and the
unwillingness of that House to attend to the prayers of
the people. He would remind the Noble Lord of
what took place in 1819, when he and his party pro-
tested against the Six Acts, and advised the Govern-
ment to attend to the prayers of the people. The
Noble Lord had stated that a large mass of the people
were without moral and religious instruction. Whose
fault was that ? Why the fault of Parliament, which
had refused to give the education. And because they
had chosen to keep the people in ignorance and dark-
ness, was that a reason for turning round upon them, and
letting the military loose on them ? The Working Men's
Association, in a document drawn up by the very men who
drew up the Charter, had two years ago complained of
this want. He was happy to state that at this moment
there was not a single Conservative on the Conserva-
tive benches to listen to his statement—(the Conserva-
tive benches had been completely unoccupied for some
time),---this was a proof of their utter indifference to this
subject, and it was owing to their opposition that the
people had been deprived of the benefits of education
which the Noble Lord would willingly have bestowed
upon them.—(Cheers.) He would not deny but that
some among the Chartists may have used intemperate
language, but suffering was the bond of union which
kept them together. The acts of plunder which had
been committed at Birmingham had been occasioned.
not by Chartism but by incitation, and having been
interfered with in the exercise of their rights by the pop.
lice ; and if the people were thus insulted, nothing but
a hollow truce would be the consequence. Was it no'
notorious that the majority of the inhabitants of this
country had not a voice in the choice of representatives.
and the case was still worse as regarded Ireland
and Scotland ? He was sorry that the increase of
military force should be proposed without sonic declara-
tion on these important topics—but after the statement
of the Noble Lord as to the state of the country, he
could not persist in the motion of which he had given
notice. But it was impossible agitation could cease
while the people were denied their rights ; and if this
House were disposed to do little, the other House would
do less. Their conduct in rejecting the Bill for a small
modicum of Reform, which was sent up the other day,
showed the spirit that animated them—it was the feather
thrown up to show which way the wind blew. There wa.,
one other point to which he would allude—this increase
would add to the taxation and expenses of the countr).
He was desirous to have his opinions placed on the
records of the House.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD seconded the motion. IL
was sorry that the Noble Lord had shown no disposi-
tion to conciliate the people. If he had shown a dis-
position to repeal the New Poor-law, that would have
been looked upon as an attempt at conciliation.—
(Laughter, and hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had
never shown the good of it. It had reduced expences
by 2,000,0001. at the expence of the paupers. Hence
the Noble Lord had been called Lord Pinch-Pauper.—
(Laughter.) The paupers had been pinched for
the benefit of the landed interest. The object
was to bring the labourers down to the Irish
level.—(Hear, hear.) Now the Noble Lord offered
bayonets instead of bread. The consequence of this
proceeding would soon bring about an election, and he
believed he would soon see the day when the Ministers
would not have a seat in this House.—( Hear, hear,
and laughter.) The Noble Lord was trying to govern
a discontented nation by military force, but he could
not do it. Let him once goad the people to the fight-
ing point, and as sure as there was a God in heaven
they would beat him. The Noble Lord would recol-
lect 150 years. ago—( Loud laughter)—the House
was very jocose, but a man might recollect a thing from
history as well as from ocular demonstration ; it was
quite proper, and any Hon. Member would say he re-
collected a passage in the life of Julius Gasser, yet no one
for a moment supposed he had seen Julius Caesar, or sat
at his table.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord thought he
could coerce the people of England, but he (Mr. A.) told
him he never could—that was not the proper way to go to
work. It was said in America, when measures of coercion
accompanied by those of conciliation were sent out, that it
was the going abroad of the destroying angel accompanied
by the angel of peace. The Noble Lord, however, was
sending forth his destroying angel without any angel of
peace at all. He trusted to the bayonet and the sword,
but they would both be useless unless be gave promise to
the people of peace and prosperity. The days of the Go.
vernment of the Noble Lord were coming to an end, and
unless the system were changed, so would be the days of
all Government in this country. He deprecated violence,
but he was well aware that there was a point beyond which
human endurance would not go. If the Noble Lord would
promise some measures of peace and conciliation to the
people—to give them all the liberty that was consistent
with the liberties and prosperity of the country, then
he would be disposed to vote for the Noble Lord's propo-
sition ; but he could not vote for it unless so accompanied.
Mr. WARD, though he thought (and he did not use
the word offensively) the motion of the Hon. Member was
a very disingenuous one, still he would feel it his duty to
vote for it ; he said so, because it embraced so many prin-
ciples in which many Hon. Members agreed, along with
others which they could not support. For instance, in
voting for the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member fur
Kilkenny, he could not at all condemn the principles of
the New Poor-law, for he thought it a very salutary one ;
neither would he feel himself at all bound to support any
motion for Universal Suffrage. With respect- to the
course of conduct pursued by the Noble Secretary for the
Home Department, it was impossible for him to say how
deeply he felt grateful to him for it. With a system of
organization going ou throughout the country, with the
people arming and threatening the peace of the country,
he could not express too strongly his sense of the debt the
House and the country owed him for his temperance, his
forbearance, and his prudence.—(Cheers.) At the very
beginning of the Chartist agitation he appealed to the
common sense of the nation, in place of coercion, and com-
mon sense had now come to the rescue. The chief
leaders of the first Chartist agitation were now ashamed
of those whom they had been the means of bringing out.
The Hon. Member for Birmingham, who last year took
an active part in the agitation now repudiated those who
had taken his place, and the sacred month had become a
failure; even Mr. Stephens when addressing his congre-
gation at Stayley Bridge the other day said, " I thank
God, that my conscience is clear of the sacred month
humbug—it is Mr. Attwood's humbug and not mine."._
(Laughter.) The middle classes were arraying themselves
against then], and all now showed that the people had
been misled. He was very sorry there should be any di-
vision upon that subject.—( Hear, bear.) He would beg
and press upon his Hon. Friend the Member for Kil-
kenny, the propriety, the justice, he would say almost the
necessity, in the present state of the country, not
to bring the question to a division; if he pressed
on a division however, he (Mr. Ward) who had
always voted for progressive reform, would feel it his
bounden duty to vote with him, for how, after his
votes in that Session, could he say that measures of coer-
cion alone would be succesful ? -He was perfectly
willing to give the additional force because Le
thought it was necessary, but how was it possible for
him to vote against all the principles he had ever professed
without giving at the same time an assurance of their an_
xious desire to ameliorate the condition of the people?
The Hon. Member for Birmingham said, if the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite had dissolved last spring he would
have had a majority. He did not doubt it; but considering
the state of Manchester and Birmingham—of Newcastle,

and the manufacturing districts generally, how was he to
have governed this country in peace, especially as, with-
out a Government that was supposed to lean favourably
towards Ireland, how could they have withdrawn so many
troops ? The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had read
largely from the addresses of the Convention. However

cautiously they were worded he put no faith in them, when
he found every individual member of that Convention,
when addressing large bodies of people, invariably insist-
ing upon an entire change in the constitution of society and
a distribution of property. That was the only sort of
language that would go down with the people. Had the
Hen. Member never heard of the Bible Radicals-:--of
those who quoted the Scriptures for the cover of spoliation ?
One of that class, in his speech, reminded his bearers an-
" the walls of Jerico fell down before the people of God,
and every one stepped in, taking what they pleased "
This was in Manchester, and they called themselves Char-
ists, and it was only by the use of such language and such
doctrines that the leaders kept up their influence in the
manufacturing districts. It would be with reluctance he
would vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend, and lie
trusted he would be saved the pain, as he would put it to
the good feeling and good taste of the Hon. Member,