The Sun.
London, England, 1863-04-18 00:00:00

CHINA.

In reply to Colunel SYKES,
Mr. LAYARD replied that he had only that morning
received some particulars with respect to the matter re-
ferred to. He could not yet tell whether guns lost were
the property of her Majesty or not. It appeared that Capt.
Holland had accompanied the expedition, which, he under-
stood, was a very foolish one, and it was well he did so. as
the results would have been far more disastrous than
reported.
SUPPLY—HARBOURS OF REFUGE,

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Sir F. SMITH moved that so much of the report of the
Commissioners on Harbours of Refuge as applied to Wa-
terford, Wick, and Padstow be carried into effect.
The hon. and gallant member urged, at some length, the
propriety of losing no time in constructing these important
harbours.

Mr. KENDALL, in seconding the motion, particularly
advocated the claims of Padstow, on the double ground that
not only had Padstow done much to improve itself, but
that more could be effected there by the expenditure of a
small sum of money than anywhere else.
Sir J. D. HAY, while supporting the motion, took mea-
sion to recommend that a harbour of refuge should also be
formed at Filey, which was the only spot cn the north-
-1 eastern coast between Flamborough Head and the Firth of
Forth where such a harbour could be advantageously
formed for the use of the Baltic traders. In the evidence
taken before the commission, it was stated that on one occa-
sion, namely, the 7th of Feb., 1858, there being upwards of
100 sail at anchor off Flamborough Head, the wind suddenly
changed to the southeast, which compelled the whole fleet
to go to sea; and the result was that 50 of them were lost.
As many as 1,300 vessels had taken refuge at a time in
Filey Bay, while 700 ware frequently to be found there.
Mr. BEECROFT called upon the house not to hesitate
as to the formation of a harbour of refuge at Filey, in order
to check the dreadful loss of life which now annually oc-
curred on the north-east coast.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE had been on the Harbours Of
Refuge Committee, and he bad afterwards accompanied
_ _

the commission during a considerable portion of their in.

spection, and he could strongly corroborate the opinions
wriLla had been expressed with respect to the necessity
for the formation of a harbour of refuge at Filey. But he
had also to direct attention to the desirableness of form-
ing a similar harbour at Peterhead, which was a salient
point on the coast, and one to which onr northern trade
converged as it approached the land. He would press
the question upon the noble lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, ano point out that it was no light matter that
the recommendations of a committee which had sat during
two sessions of Parliament, and which had been backed up
by the report of a commission, should be ignored, while the
public money was being so lavishly expended on works of
questionable utility elsewhere.
Mr. BLAKE concurred in the views expressed by the
lion. and gallant member for Chatham, and stated that many
of the wrecks which took place off Waterford Harbour
might be prevented if the recommendation of the commis-
sioners had been carried out.
Mr. G. DUFF observed that in regard to Peterhead, the

recommendation of the commissioners was a dead letter,
The commissioners recommended a grant of £lOO,OOO, but
the condition on which it was made dependent, namely, the
subscription of £200,000 in the district itself, could never
be realised.
rd
waLitoiwaitingf.r
BURYgrantos of public
that, while other places were
public money, the inhabitants of Wick
were turning their attention to raising money for themselves.
The fishermen of Wick, who had to leave that harbour every
day to follow their fishing avocation, did so very frequently
at the risk of their lives; for the sea round that part of the
coast often became so tempestuous that the fishermen when
they left Wick in the morning never knew that they would
be able to re-enter the harbour. Underthis mute of things
they could not wait until such time as the Government
might think proper to construct a harbour of refuge, and
accordingly they were desirous of borr?wing a sum of money
from the Exchequer Loan Commtihsasit the constructiononerstobuildapoiefra,
although there could be nodoubt
harbour of refuge by the Government would be of far
greater benefit.
o n
strtrt.ioLnl DofDhEaLr
harbours
us arisd heof
refute viewed
asth oneeque sot it of
nationalthe cim-
portance, and he therefore advocated it in this general
sense, and not that particular places should be selected
while others were neglected. It appeared to him that har-
bours of refuge were of greater importance and urgency
than fortifications. Fortifications were carried out for the
purpose of providing against the contingencies of war,
whereas harbours of refuge were intended to provide against
natural contingencies in the shape of storms and stress of
weather. He would not follow the course taken by hon.
members of asking that a harbour of refuge should be con-
structed at this or that place; his desire was to see the
principle generally carried out.
Mr. GIBSON said the hon. member who spoke last
wanted to have the principle of harbours of refuge gene-
rally applied, but if every harbour in the country were
to ask for a grant of money for the purpose of improve-
ment, where would they stop? That was a principle with
which he could not sympathise : as it was, perhaps, the
most distinguishing feature in the English character that,
of all other people in the world, they were the most forward
in carrying on great undertakings by private enterprise,
and without having recourse to State aid. As regarded
Peterhead, he thought that question could be easily dis-
posed of. It was true, that the commissioners recom-
mended a grant of £lOO,OOO ; and if he applied to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer for that sum, hie right hon. friend
would ask him whether the locality was prepared with the
£200,000. Well, as the locality had no disposition to
raise that sum, the recommendation of the commissioners

could not be carried into effect. ,-The right hon(gentle-

man -,then reviewed the several statements whiel;, were

made about the great saving of life and property which
would be effected by harbours of refuge, and expressed his

opinion that such statements were very much exaggerated,
although he did not mean to deny but that some small

saving would result from the construction of those works.

It was an entire mistake to suppose that nothing had

been done towards the encouragement of the construc-
tion of harbours of refuge and the improvement of harbours

by the present Government ; or that the present Govern-

ment had overlooked the recommendations of the committee

of that house. On the contrary, they had contributed ma-
terially towards that end by the bill introduced by the hon.

member for St. Ives, for allowing tolls to be raised for the
purpose without the expense of a private bill; and also by

a measure which he had himself introduced for enabling

sums of money to be borrowed at a moderate rate of inte-
rest, and to be repaid on easy terms. A great deal had been
done towards carrying out the object in view, and already
EOO,OOO had been advanced or promised towards it through
the agency of the Public Works Loan Commissioners. He

had spoken of Waterford and Padstow, and the noble lord

the member for Wick had told them that the inhabitants of

that place were inclined to help them.elves. Last session
they obtained a bill for making a new harb fur, and they
were now asking the Public Works Loan Commissioners to
assist them with £60,000, which there was every reason to
believe would be granted. The effect of the motion before the

house, if successful, would be that they would suspend those
operations, and rely on assistance from the State. That, he
considered, would Le a very bad policy for the house to adopt.
The plan of the propos-2d harbour had been approved of by
the Lords of the Admiralty, and he expressed a hope that
the house would not interfere and check local and private
energy as in the case of Wick, or give money to some places
whilst others were raising large sums for the improv, ment of
their harbour by the imposition of taxes on the local trade

of the place, If they once commenced giving public money,
there would be no knowing where it would end, and he

believed it would be injurious to all concerned if the time

of that house was to be occupied in settling rival claims
on the public purse, and to be employed in a kind of

general scramble for the public money. He thought he
spoke the sentiment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
when sa deliberate a design was made upon that surplus
which the right hon. gentleman said he was determined to
keep and defend if he could. (Hear, hear.) He asked the

house not to agree to the motion.
Mr. BENTINCK said the right hon. gentleman had
fenced with the question, becoming an official person of
great experience; but he thought the house would rot be
satisfied with his explanation. Tne time had come for the
Government to act, but he regretted to find it was not the
intention of her Majesty's Government to act in the matter.
He did not support the motion, but he was of opinion that
the country had a claim upon the Government for protec-
tion, and that they ought to deal with it as a general ques-
tion for the public benefit. 'I he Government might find
sufficient support for the object in view without contributing
money, and his suggestion was that local contributions in
money should be aided by the Government in granting con-
vict labour; and he expressed a hope that future legisla-
tion with regard to convict labour would put them in a
better position for carrying out his suggestion. Convict
labour was now a farce. A certain amount of recreation
was enforced for the benefit of the health of the convicts—
(hear, hear)—but he wished to see it carried to the extent of
making the convicts support themselves. By his plan he
thought they might economically carry out a plan for the
general construction of harbours of refuge, and get rid of
conflicting interest.

Sir J. PAKINGTON described the speech of the right
hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade as
not creditable to her Majesty's Government, and a speech
that ought not to be satisfactory to the house. That
speech would lead one to the belief that this was the first
motion on the subject of harbours of refuge in that house;
whereas the late Mr. Wilson, acting in the name
of the former Liberal Government, was most active in re-
ference to it, and presided over a committee on the subject
that sat for two sessions; and when the Derby Government
was in existence, it was in consequenee of that gentleman's
urgent request that he (Sir J. Pakington) appointed the
Royal commission whose report had been referred to that
night. Nothing could be stronger than the report of the
committee and also of the Royal commission for something
to be done for the protection of life, shipping, and commerce
on our coasts. He regretted to find that the subject was
pooh-poohed, and adjourned from session to session by eva-
sive speeches, such as they had heard that night from the
right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade;
and he appealed to the noble lord at the head of the Govern-
ment to distinctly state whether they were to continue to go
on in their present state and condition. Whilst he hoped
the noble lord would be prepared to give the house some
hope that the reports might receive some attention from her
Majesty's Government hereafter, he suggested to the hon.
and gallant member for Chatham whether it was prudent to
take the sense of the house on the limited motion he had
made rather than as a whole, and to be dealt with as a na-

tional question. After the statement made the previous
night by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that his surplus,
after the large financial concession that he had made,would
not be encroached upon, he considered it was somewhat in-
opportune to commence the evening after with the first
inroad on the £500,000 surplus. A motion of this kind he
thought should be made earlier in the session, so that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer might be able to arrange hie
financial scheme accordingly. He was unable under the
circumstances, to give his support to the motion.
Col. SYKES thought the Government should transfer

the balances on the fortifications votes to this great work,
which was infinitely more worthy of the humanity,the pru-
dence, and the good sense of that house. (Hear, hear.)

The motion was then negatived a division.
THE LIGHTING OF LIGHT-HOUSES.

Lord LOVAINE moved for a copy of the reports to the
Trinity House of the South Foreland, Verne, and Dunge-
ness light keepers, and of all reports from Professor Fara-
day subsequent to that of the sth day of July, 1862, upon
the electric light now in operation at Dungeness, and asked
the President of the Board of Trade whether it was the
intention of the Trinity House to include the use of the
electric light in the alterations contemplated at Portland.
Colonel CLIFFORD, in seconding the motion, was happy
to be able to state that if they were to introduce the electric
light into the national lighthouses, it would not be neces-
sary to make any attack upon the surplus in the hands of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as the Trinity House
were in possession of ample funds, which might be available
for the purpose. It was certainly most extraordinary that
the electric light had not lac en already introduced into our
lighthouses, while the Dutch, who were not usually re-
garded as a very quick nation, had applied it in two in-
sta.,ces. Indeed, it was to be feared that, as regarded light-
houses in general, England was in a very backward state.
Even Spain, which was not a particularly precipitate
country, had lighthouses far superior to those of England.
He could himself bear witness that no lighthouse which
England possessed gave so brilliant a light as that afforded
by the Spanish lighthouse at Ceuta, on the African coast.
Mr. M. GIBSON s Lid it was not competent for the
noble lord, according to the forms of the house, to make
a motion upon such an occasion. Nevertheless, ha would
offer no opposition to the production of all the papers for
which he had asked. With respect to the introduction
of the electric light at Portland, the Board of Trade had
refused to sanction the expenditure necessary for the
purpose until further experience had been had as to the
adaptability of the light for the illumination of lighthouses.
Everyone admitted that the brilliancy of the electric light
was far superior to the light produced- by oil lamps, and
likewise that it was far more capable of being distinguished
than any other light. Certainly light was a matter of the
greatest importance. The electric light had been in use at
Dungeness for nine months, but it required constant atten-
tion. It was found occasionally to undergo a partial or
momentary extinction. The cost of lights was borne by the
merchant shipping, and no further burden should be thrown
upon that interest until further experience proved the adap-
tability and superiority of the electric light.
Mr. BENTINCK hoped that on a future occasion the
right hon. gentleman would give the house a fuller ex-
planation on the subject. It was his own impression that
the Trinity Board wasted more money than would suffice to
establish the electric light all over the kingdom,
The matter then dropped.
THE SEWAGE OF TOWNS.

Dr. BRADY called the attention of the house to the re-
port of the Royal commission appointed to inquire into the
best mode of utilising the sewage of towns, and apply it to
beneficial and profitable uses, and moved a resolution de-
claring the inexpediency of granting any further public
money for the use of the commission. He referred to the
report of the commissioners who visited Rugby, which, he
said, contrasted strangely with what Mr. Lewes stated had
been done at Edinburgh. They condemned its application,
whilst Mr. Lewes and the Edinburgh experience showed
thesewageit manure and its application to the land, and urged
of contrary. He next referred to the chemical properties
use was objected to by English farmers from that
pre-
judice, which was increased and kept alive by
the manu-
facturers of, and dealers in, artificial manures, their paid
agents, and that portion of the press that was under their
influence. He called attention to the at iraulsting qualities
of town sewage, and its satisfactory results when properly
applied to the land. The hon. member proceeded at great
length to prove that the conclusions of the Royal commis.
sion, namely, that sewage was not applicable for any crop
but grass, that the grass produced by it was so inferior that
it was unfit for fattening, that it was not good for milk
and, finally, that to produce any result at all, it must be
used in onormous dressings upon limited areas—that each
and every one of these conclusions were not only incorrect,
but were diametrically opposed to all practical experience.
Having done that, he called upon the Government to dis-
solve a body which had so ill discharged the important du
ties entrusted to its care. Whatever might be done in the
matter by the house, he trusted that the &omission of the
question would be productive of benefit to the country at
large.
Mr. K. SEYMER remarked that the hon. gentleman's
\
motion had, been before the house for about six weeks, and
yet he had not apparently had time to put it into a gram-
matical form. Setting aside, however, the question of gram-
mar, he maintained that the object of the commission was
not to discover the best mode of application,
but the best
plan of utilising, the sewage of towns. The hon. gentleman

then reviewed briefly the various steps adopted by the com-
mission to obtain accurate results from the experiments
submitted-to them in the course of their inquiries. The hon.
member proceeded at some length to show that the sewage
of towns could only be applied with advantage in large
quantities to small areas of grass land. He believed that
if the Royal commission had reported that sewage was
worth 2d. a ton, and that it might be spread over large
areas in small quantities, the house would have heard no-
thing about stopping the further expenditure of public
money to enable them to continue their experiments. The
fact was that there were various projects kept in check by
a belief in the correctness of the views of that commis-
sion. If, however, any slur were to be cast upon their
proceedings, those projects would burst forth into flower,
but, he ventured to predict, without producing any fruit.
He believed that sgriculturists were not likely to be de-
ceived though town-councillors might, very much to the
cost of the rate-payers. If the house thought that the time
had come to put a stop to the expenditure for the experi-
ments at Rugby, of course the commission would have to
bow to that decision ; but he would observe that the £2,000
asked for in the estimates of the present year referred to an
expenditure the greater part of which had been incurred.
No further sum would be asked for by the Royal commis-
sion, and that would enable them to complete the experi-
ments at Rugby, which he believed to be the only accurate
experiments ever made with reference to the value of sew-
age. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CO WPER said the question of utilising sewage
had hitherto been considered one of science relating to
questions of engineering arrangement and agricultural
knowledge; but the hon. member for Leitrim had raised
the question in an entirely different manner. He had
certain opinions on this subject not shared by other per-
sons, and which had been thwarted and condemned by
the publications of the Royal commission. Not being able
to answer the report of the Royal commission, the hon.
member now suggested to the government that they
should be prevented from making any more experiments.
That was a view to which it was impossible for him (Mr.
Cowper) to accede. He thought the commission had
answered the purpose for which it was appointed. It was
appointed at a time when towns did not know what to
do with their sewage, and be thought the report of the
commission contained very valuable suggestions for muni-
cipal bodies. He trusted the commission would continue
its labours and experiments, and..it could do no more use-
ful work ew tho proapnt moment than to show municipal
Lodies how to dispose of the sewage of their towns. The
municipality of this great city would do well to turn its
attention to this question, They were going to turn the
sewage of the metropolis into the Thames; but if the re-
sults obtained in the neighbourhood of Edinburgh—results
which raised the value of land from ss. an acre to £25—
could be accomplished in the barren and sandy lands near
London, it would be better to apply the sewage to this
purpose.
Mr. PAGET said, as he was a member of the commission,
he merely rose to request that the Government would not
agree to the proposition of the hon. member for Leitrim,
but rather extend the grant, so as to enable the commission
to enlarge their experiments.
Mr. AYRTON thought it was useless the commission
should continue their experiments, as they could be of no
practical benefit to agriculturists.
After a few words from Sir J. SHELLEY, the subject
dropped.

POLAND.
Mr. GRIFFITH rose to " inquire of the First Lord e
the Treasury as to the existing state of relations between
Russia and Sweden on the subject of Poland." He appre-
hended the answer of the Russian Government would be
that the amnesty had answered all the claims which the Go-
vernment of this country were justified in demanding from
Russia. That appeared to be also the opinion entertained
in a neighbouring country, which was more enthusiastic en
the subject. In the meantime cruelties were being perpe-
trated against the Poles, which increased the animosity be-
tween them and their oppressors. The hon. member quoted
extracts from various documents, and referred to the rigours
exercised byßussia over the Poles, and the determination of
the latter to reject the amnesty, and insist upon the restora-
tion of Poland according to the extent of its original fron-
tiers. The sympathy of the Swedes for Poland was as great
as that of the people of this country ; and therefore anything
that the Swedes might do in. furtherance of the cause of
Poland would excite the animosity of Russia : and no op-
portunity would be lost on their part for finding a cause
of quarrel with Sweden. He said he had been favoured
with a letter received by a member of that house from
his brother, who was located in Sweden, dated March 26,
which stated that 20,000 Norwegian and 40,000 Swedish
soldiers had received orders to march towards Finland.
THRONE OF GREECE.
Lord H. LENNOX, who had given notice of his inten.
tion to ask a question of the First Lord of the Treasury re-
specting the recent election of Prince William of Denmark
to the Throne of Greece, said he had addressed his question
to the First Lord of the Treasury in consequence of the
answer he received from the Under Secretary for Foreign
Affairs. On Monday he gave notice of some questions to
the Under Secretary with respect to the election of Prince
William of Denmark. He also forwarded to the Under
Secretary full details of the questions he intended to put-
During Tuesday he was at the house, but he received no
intimation from the hon. gentleman that it would be incon-
venient to the public service to answer his questions. He
therefore rose at the usual time and put his questions.
The Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, not meaning
doubtless to be guilty of discourtesy, replied that the
only answer was that he would give no answer to his
questions. Whereuport feeling, as he would admit, some-
what snubbed, he told the hon. gentleman and the house
that he would put his question again the next day, in the
hope of getting a more satisfactory answer. The hon, gen-
tleman, however, told him it would be useless to do so as he
would receive the same answer ; that there was no answer,
and that it would not be for the benefit of the public ser-
vice to make a statement on the subject. The hon. gentle-
man was, of course, cheered by hon. members on the Minis-
terial Benches, and he (Lord H. Lennox) left the house
half convinced that he had been guilty of an indiscretion.
What then was his surprise to find that, 48 hours after-
wards, in another place, the interests of the public service
gave way, and that the noble lord the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs gave full and ample details of everything
that had taken place. That noble lord did more, for he put
up the President of the Council to give further information
thethhe
which
ehhaehset
es
ea as
had
and to answer a noble earl, and thus official intimation was
communicated by two members of her Majesty's Government
to another assembly which had been denied 48 hours before
to the House of Commons. He did not regard this in the
on Monday, not with the wish
a itself.
given
kaesda
tmheattequr
easfftiecentinogf
esnon(ncaolhtiecoere. question,He bueet
to interfere with the election of Prince William, but because
' he had reason to know that the conduct of the Foreign-
office had been so precipitate as to peril the very object
which the Government had in view. (Hear.) Pleasant as
it usually was to be contradicted by the noble viscount, yet
that pleasure would be denied to him in the present instance,
because he was in a position to assert that when the tele-
gram was despatched to Mr. Elliot, asking the Assembly to
offer the Crown of Greece to Prince William, it was stated
that the Government did so with the authority of the King
of Denmark. That statement was true; but that authority
was given conditionally on the consent of Prince Christian
and Prince William being also obtained. And when this
telegram was despatched, not only had Prince William not
given his adhesion, but no longer age than yesterday he
was still offering innumerable objections to the negotiation.
He believed that when the King of Denmark and
Prince Christian learned that the National Assembly of
Greece had proceeded to the election of Prince William
they were extremely surprised, and that Prince Christian
was summoned to Copenhagen to explain to the King of
Denmark how the matter had been brought about. The
whole thing was such a mere matter of conversation and
private gossip that the accredited Minister of the Crown of
Denmark in London had up to the period of the offer never
even received a communication that the candidature of
Prince William was on the tapir. He should not have put
his question at such length had it not been for the manner
—the unseemly manner, as it seemed to him—in which all
information was denied him on the plea of inconvenience to
the public service, while it was willingly accorded by two
Ministers of the Crown in another place. (Hear, hear.)
Lori PALMERSTON—My hon. friend the member for
Devizes will excuse me if I do not follow him into the dis-
sertation upon which he entered with regard to the Polish
question and the matters connected with it; but I will an.
sorer the question which he has put upon the paper with
regard to the relations now subsisting between the Court of
Sweden and the Court of Russia. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment are not aware that anything has interrupted the good
relations between those two Governments. But, of course,
the hon. member and the house will feel that we do not stand
here to answer for that which may be passing between foreign
Governments. (Hear.) As far as we know, there is no reason
to suppose there is any unfriendly feeling between the two.
The noble lord who has just sat down, I think, made an un-
fair charge against my hon. friend the Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs. The noble lord seems to have
overlooked the distinction between the nature of a question
and the nature of an answer. It is quite possible that a
question may not be indiscreet, though it may be very in-
discreet to give an answer to it. (Laughter.) No blame at-
taches to the noble lord for the question he put to my hon.
friend (renewed laughter), but some blame would have at-
tached to my hon. friend it he had gone into those details
which were involved in an answer to the question. Now,
the noble lord has mistaken what passed in another place,
because, if he will look back to the record he will see that a
noble friend of mine in answer to the question put to him
entered largely into detail, yet he was reminded afterwards
by another noble lord that he had entirely evaded the ques-
tion. (Much laughter) That is a course which is often fit
and becoming to adopt when questions are put to which it
would be indiscreet to give a direct answer. And, there.
fore, the noble lord will excuse me (renewed laughter) if I
do not tell him all that has passed in regard to communi-
cations which have taken place with respect to the election
of Prince William of Denmark to the Crown of Greece. But
this I will tell him that her Majesty's Government lid not
act with the precipitation which he ascribes to them, and that
they made no communications to the Greek which they were
not authorized to make. The actual election of Prince
William at Athens was so entirely the result of the impulse