The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-31 00:00:00

the hasty Nsnnt-cra, NINA mlght hare .'p'rel7ea of
much pm.ludice to the interests of th,2'illo,zlt.sh 'Protestant
Church.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord LOWTILFR tAAI, addressed the House, but in so
low a tone that t'o was indistinctly heard throughout his
speech. He said that the Hon. Metober had been ftaltm-.
trionsly preparing himself during the last two Se,tlo-ns to
bring the present motion forward. The fithi, llettibtr
contented himself with quoting frith Varioim reports just
so much as served his pM-pose, tnd omitting all that was
against him. Of that, 11,,,,weVer, he perhaps had no right
to complain. if be were to follow the Hen. Member
through til the points of his speech, he Would haVe, A very
hard tnl: to execute, for the lion. Merubo.- hi',(l taken up
Iris subject at the pedal of the. aaxon Ileptarchy, and
brought it doWn to t.ltv latest moment. However, all the
Hon. Gentlttfian had stated was merely a repetitim of the
able digests of the Reports made by Mr. Middleton and
Mr. Fordyce. It appeared to him that he should only be
wasting the time of the House by entering into a discus-
sion res;:ectin, the profligate grants of Charles or Wil-
liam. He did nut wish to defend an attempt to excuse
grants made to the Pulteneys and Guise. There could be
no question that those were jobs which would not be per-
mitted in the present day. The period at which he would
take up the subject was when Mr. Pitt came forward, in
1786, and stated, that the Crown lands were in such a
state as to require investigation, and to be put on a footing
better adapted to the exigencies of the State. Ever since
that period, the revenue of the Crown lands had been
gradually increasing. In 1797, the revenue was 46,133/. ;
in 1805, it was 59,0001. ; and at a later period, 250,000/.

He must declare that most of • the Hon. Memhei's state-
ments were extremely exaggerated. He bad stated that
an individual would give 100,0001. for the Newark pro-
perty. He (Lord Lowther) would take upon himself the
responsibility of saying, that he would accept that offer,
or a much less one, but he was well aware that the Hon.
Member would not produce any person to make it. He
was well acquainted with Newark,. and would venture
to assert, that neither the Honourable Member, nor 'any
other person, would make such an offer for the Crown pro-
perty there, notwithstanding all the l'arliamintary inte-
rest which was supposed to be attached to it. He had
happened to occupy one of the houses in Spring-gardens to
which the Hon. Member had alludefl. He paid a rent of
260/. a year, and his lease had five years to run ; when he
wanted to remove, arid before be could find a tenant, he
was obliged to give him 5001. to take his bargain off his
bands. The Hon. Gentleman was misinformed on many
points. Sometimes he over-rated and at others he under-
rated the value of this peculiar species of property. He
took the country property, for instance, at 500,0001. a
year, a sum which was by no means realized, while he
estimated the property in London at 50,000/. a year ;
whereas it appeared by documents laid before the House,
that the ground rents in London averaged 100,0001.
a year, and that they last year produced 105,000/. This
proved how imperfect the information of the Hon. Member
was, though he bad been studying the subject for two
sessions. He admitted, that some of the estates mentioned
by the Hon. Gentleman were capable of great improve-
ment ; and, he believed, that of all the Crown estates in
the kingdom there was not one which had undergone more

important or more expensive improvements than that of
Sunk Island. It consisted of a few acres of land, which
were said now to produce 10,0001. a year, but which
so►ne years ago were worth nothing. The cause of this
greet increase in value was solely to be attributed to the
extensive and liberal improvements which had been ef-
fected. Mr. Fordyce had stated, that those who were in
possession of the property had gone on with its progressive
improvement- He (Lord Lowther) having been given to
understand that it was a property of so much impurtanm,,
went to Sunk Island in the course of last summer, and lie
fuund that a considerable part of it had been banked out
to preserve it from the encroachments of the sea. The
tenants had built strong walls to secure them from the
effects of sudden inundation. The Hon. Member had al-

luded to the estate of Rosedale, in the county of York, and
he blamed the Commissioners for investing those estates
as they had done. Now, it was a remarkable point,
that the Hon. Gentleman seemed to think, that when the
Commissioners of the Land Revenue sold to other persons,
they gave away the property toe cheaply, but that when.
he came to deal with them, they mask most offensive and
exorbitant demands. The Hon. Member, he believed,
NM acquainted with, and wished to get possession of, the
estate of Rosedale, which property be (Lord Lowther)
had never visited. The surveyor employed by the Com-
missioners of Woods and Forests, blamed them for not dis-
posing of it in lots. But it was contained in a ring fence,
and they thought it would be better to make it a property
fit for the residence of a country gentlemanovhich, by the
Charing-cross act, they were allowed to do. He admitted
that it was in a part of the country not very desirable on
account of its locality, hut still it was susceptible of great
imprevement. The surveyor employed by the Commis-
sioners of Woods and Forests estimated its value at
63,000/..; and the Hon. Member- now blamed the Com-
missioners because they had refused a bidding of 36,000/.
which had been made by his Itent. He knew that the
Hon. Member had written to the Commissioners the day
after the particulars came out, and he was glad of it ; be-
cause when any truth was disclosed which appeared likely
to be of benefit to the public, it was only right that atten-
tion should be paid to it. He saw the flaw which the
_ _

Hon. Member pointed out, and he caused the bills which
had been sent forth to be recalled, and he delayed the sale
in consequence of that representation. But the Honorable
Member said that the Commissioners ought to have de-
manded less for this property. Now he would assert, that
consistently with his duty, he could not have taken less.
Their surveyor in Yorkshire, who was an able and a faith-
ful officer, not only employed by the Government, but by
some Members on the other side of the House, was of
opinion that 63,0001. was too little. Before that price was
determined on, he had submitted all the papers to Mr.
Driver, a gentleman well known to many individuals in
that House, • and he had valued the property at more
than their official surveyor did. The Commissioners,
however, declared that they would let it go at the valuation
of 63,0001. There were no bidders to that amount, and
Mr. Driver was again employed to survey the property.
His report was that he- conceived it to be a very good
bargain at 63,000/. He merely mentioned this fact
without comment, for he did not wish to say any thing
that savoured of spleen or venom, as the Hon. Gentleman
had done with respect to him. With respect to the
public-house at Virginia Waters, he admitted to the Hon.
Gentleman that an extravagant price was given for it.
But when it was stated that the house in question was
situated in the park, within 50 yards of the Virginia
Waters, perhaps gentlemen would agree with him that if,
in any instance, some degree of extravagance was ex-
cusable, it was under the peculiar circumstances in this
instance. There was one part of the Hon. Member's
speech which he did not very well comprehend. He un-
derstood him to say, that the Rockingham estate was
purchased by the Earl of Westmorland in 1809. The
fact was not so. A grant of the Rockingham estate was
roads, in 1764, to the Earl of Westmorland, for 17,000/.,
and a smaller sum was paid in 1809, not for the estate,
but for the honorary and forestial rights appertaining to it,
As to the estates of Morton and Waldale, he knew that
they had been improved, nod were capable of still gfeater
improvement. But it did not follow that they had been
improvidently let. When those lands were first taken
they were furnished neither with drains nor roads, but now
they were greatly improved in those particulars, and at a
very considerable expense. In giving these explanations
of some of the misrepresentations of the Hon. Member, he
had confined himself to the Report of 1766, for he could
not, without preparation, go so far back as the Hon.
Member had done. Looking to the whole of the Hon.
Member's speech, extended as it was, he did not think
that the Hon. Member had laid any just grounds for
going into a Committee. He had had the honour to bring
in an Act, in the last Session of Patliarnent, to consolidate
and bring into one focus all the Acts which related to this
subject. By referring to that Statute every one was
enabled to see at a glance what the power of the Board
really was. As regarded the public, an additional protec-
tion was also afforded, for the annual accounts and pro-
ceedings of the Board were directed to be laid before Par-
liament, so that they could be promptly inspected and
examined.—(llear.)—He thought it was right that this
' should be so ; because in his opinion, the Commissioners
of Woods and Forests ought to stand' in the same Situation
as other public Boards. He believed that all the Members
of that office, as well as himself, were ready to explain and
justify the outlay of every sixpence in their department.
He Was anxious that there should be laid before Parlia-
ment a full account of the expenditure of the funds which
were paid into this office. He was perfectly aware of
the interpretation of the law with reference to this pro-
perty. It was ordered that it /should be laid out for
public purposes, and he knew that a very small .portion
of the proceeds of this property .had been paid into the
Exchequer. But that revenue was at the disposal of
the House of Commons, and under their direction much
of it had been appropriated to various improvements.
In 1612, 185,000/. had been paid into the: Exchequer,
and at that time Parliament entered on the formation of
the new street, and the laying nut of Marylebone-park,
which came to upwards of ,000,0001. sterling. If these
funds had not been made available for the purpose of these
improvements, Parliament would have been obliged to
draw on the consolidated fund;or to "Seek for some other re-
source. He did not understand that there was any other