The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-07 00:00:00

ter
and cheering.) He had repeatedly called upon the people
at Ireland to agitate, agitate, agitate—combine, combine,
corm;
• Hear, and cheers.) Why, the Learned Member
lahisob •
servat:ons, had only shown his total disacquaintance with
-ll . the proceedings of Parliament, with that profession of
Rich he was a Member, and his total disacquaintance with the
fact, that petitions to that House should not be crammed full
O arguments and reasons, but should be a plain statement
of t
facts The:Honourable and Learned gentleman had said,
that if there were no reasons, there ought to be no petitions,
L
07t that sort of logic would not go down with the House
Commons. It was expected that a petition should
state facts, and make allegations which were to be
enquired
into at a proper time. He was obliged
afforded
Hon. and Learned Member for the opportunity he had
him of replying to his attack ; but he ( Sir F. Bur-
Jett) would stand the brunt of what he had done in a legal or
InY other way.—( Cheers.) Throughout his life he had
._
on just, honest, constitutional, and legal grounds. The
inn. and Learned Member had talked about his being into-
:sled in the petition, but he would ask whether those Gentle-
.'" whose returns were petitioned against should be now
calling on the House to make fresh election laws and fresh
modesof trial ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers)—the object of
Loch was neither more nor less than unconstitutional
and mischievous procrastination and delay. It appeared to
ulin that the Hon. Members so circumstanced were in a very
equivocal position. They called them Members of Parlia-
ment, but their right to sit in that House was questioned. He
thought,. the House ought not to break up fur the holidays
their claims had been set at rest.—( Laughter from the
linisterial side of the House.) Before any other business
was proceeded with, the right of all persons petitioned against
'0 sit in that House should in his opinion be ascertained, and
iending that investigation they ought not to be allowed
to
,;,), vote upon any question brought before the House.—( Hear. )
Nothing had been stated in the petition which was not entirely
aeceptable to him, and he should not, therefore, oppose the
Printing of the petition.
Mr. 13'C ONNE LL rose, and was met by loud cries of
Spoke, spoke," from the Tories ; answered by cheers, and
ell" of " Order" from the Ministerial benches. He said—l
rise to explain— ( Renewed cries of " Spoke")—l have a right to
!'plain, or to move the adjournment of the queseion.—( Laugh-
ter from the Tories, Hear, hear," from the Ministerial Merri-
l)
s) I will explain ; if lam interrupted I will move the
Ve,urnmeet of the debate.—( Hear, hear.) I attacked no-
„ ; I even went out of my way to give credit to—(Re-
Vowed cries of " Spoke, spoke," from the Tories, and great
leterruption, in the midst of which the Speaker's voice
Was heard exclaiming " Mr. O'Connell" to explain.) " 1
used no harsh word," proceeded Mr. O'Connell. " I did not
nescribe what I considered crime by its proper name. The
Baronet has mis-stated me. The Hon. Baronet has also
'4ls-stated me, in saying that I used no argument—that I
d,
not show how a person—( Cries of " Spoke, spoke," with
„loud cries of " Order !" from the Ministerial Benches. Mr.
9'Connell sat down, and the Speaker was understood to have
risen.)
Mr. HUM E rose, and was received by loud cries of
,4•Chair !" from the Tories. " Whv, Chair," said the Hon.
'lernber.—( Loud laughter flora the Tories, cries of " Order 1"
and great confusion.)
.Sir R. INGLIS rose, and was understood to say that the
Speaker •
had risen. (The noise and confusion was here re-
doubled. )
Mr. HUME said—l have not yet spoken—what right has
atlY Hon. Member to cry " Chair ?"—(Continued cries of
, Order !" and " Chair 1")
Sir EDWARD K N ATcHBULL—Sir, I never yet knew
the
Speaker interrupted when he had risen to express his opi-
nion,_( Loud cries of " Hear, hear !" from the Tories.)
The SPEAKER—It is true that I rose.—( Cheers from
the Tories.) I must request lion. Gentlemen to be silent.
( Hear, hear.) I rose for the purpose of stating that I
`nought when the Hon. Member for Dublin was about to re-
Fate his arguments, that he was doing that which was
Lneorisistent with explanation.—( Hear, and cheering.) The
Edon. Member for Kilkenny then rose, and was about, as
I thought, to show that the Hon. Member for Dublin was in
order ; if he slid not rise for that purpose he had no right to
interrupt the Hon. Member for Dublin.
Mr. HUME said that he had not risen with that view—
(Laughter from the Tories)—but because his Hon. Friend
(Mr. 'O'Connell) had desisted from attempting to make him-
self audible.—( Hear, he r.) He was quite surprised that the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for North Wilts, should have at-
tempted to turn the attention of the House from the subject
Which was now before it, by talking of rent, and other
'natters, with which it had nothing to do.—( Loud cheers. )
The Hon. Baronet spoke of justice. Was it justice to intro-
nee questions which were not before the House for the pur-
pose of prejudicing the question which was the immediate sub-
Ject of discussion ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Honourable
Baronet had said that ho was desirous of seeing justice done
to all parties. But was it justice to permit an individual to
he judge in his own case ?—( Hear, hear.) That was exactly
what the petition complained of. It stated that a number of
Persons, and amongst them the Hon. Baronet, had entered into
suLscriptions to interfere with the privileges of the House.—
Laughter and " Oh," from the Tories, responded to by Cheers
Aron) the Rerormers.) Notice had been given that a Committee
Would be moved for to inquire into the propriety of excluding
those persons, who put themselves in that situation, from sit-
ting upon Election Committees.—( Hear, bear) Now the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Wilts, had placed himself in
that situation ; and it was necessary for justice, that the House
should know who the Members were who had so disqualifisd
themselves.—(Torylaughter. ) It was for that purpose his Hon.
Friend was desirous the House should have the petition be
fore it. The House was bound to purify itself.—( Shouts of
.I,':Qughter from the Tory benches.) The allegation having
th:n made that the House did require such purification—that
sit wereon t, so many Members who ought not to be allowed to
~'Acetion Committees—and a notice haling been
given of a motion for a Committee to Liquire into the truth
of that allegation, would the House refuse to possess itself of
tile document, and to put it into the hands of Members in
time to enable them to judge by to-morrow whether the Com-
teittee ought to be granted or not ?—( Hear, hear.) When
the extent of the evil was ascertained, it would be the duty
of the House toevent men who had prejudged election
questions from sittinprg on election tribunals. —( Hear and cheers. )
The Hon. Baronet the Member for Wiltshire showed a dis-
regard of justice, and of all the principles of English law,
When he contended for the right of any man to try a case.—
(Great cheers from the Reform benches.) The Speaker had
decided again and again, that when a motion for a Committee
Was to be founded upon a petition, the motion should not be
!bade until after the petition had been printed and circu-
lated amongst the Members. He contended, therefore,
that the present petition ought to be printed forthwith.
He did not wish to enter into the question whether his Learned
Priced the Member for Dublin was an agitator or not, but he
felt no doubt that he should be enabled to show, if called
11P°11, that there were other agitators much more unconstitutional
than his Hon. and Learned Friend.—( Great cheering.)
Mr. AGLIONBY would not give his vote upon the pre-
!lent question without a few observations. He thought
would not raise the character of the House with
the country, when they found that on a mere question
of the practice of the House, so much bitter argument and
111-fe&ing had been engendered.—(Cheers.) He should
vote for the printing of the petition, considering it bad
no analogy whatever to the cases that had been adverted
!° of Berwick and Bridgewater.—( Cheers.) It was most
IMportant that all Members of that House should be above sus-
picion. Would that be the case were they allowed to subscribe to
Lands to question elections ? What would the House think of aju-
'lYrnan having paid part of the money to support an action which
e was to assist in trying—( Cheers)—yet such would be the
ease with Members, if such a state of things were allowed to
exist. If the House should refuse to have the petition
Printed, the public would think it was their desire to stifle
Sir ED WARD SUGDEN begged to call the attention

°t. the House to one of the passages in this petition. The
Petitioner states "that it does not become him,
its there is a petition pending against his return,
t 0
make any statement that might have the
effect prejudging, that petition ; but he firmly believes and is
opinion, that the grounds of that petition are false, frivolous
4141 vexatious." Now he put it to the House, whether these
statements were not mixed up with the merits of the petition?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I do not agree with the
4tig t Hon. Baronet that terms of such general. import as he
Taeust read arc likely to prejudge the merits of the petition.
t, petitioners of course maintain that the Honourable
'either was not duly elected. He of course, maintains
ithat he is duly elected, and that the grounds of the petit
I°ll are frivolous and vexatious. A mere assertion like
that
le stated by the Hon. Bart. is quite different from an
ro ged fact, such as bribery, intimidation, or coercion. There-
-4
t•r-
I do not think that allegations of this sort bring the pe-
• ti°ll within the view of the cases cited by the Hon.
tie Gen-
man opposite. Sir, the Hon. Member for Newcastle seemed
tot misunderstand an observation which fell from me with respect
:tithe course that ought to be pursued on this question ; but
t I wanted was, that the House should thoroughly under
id the manner in which it was to proceed. If they wished
JOdiscussion on the general question to come on to-night, then
this Petition ought to be received ; but if, on the other hand,
the Hon. Gentleman comas forward as an aggrieved party,
tee; is bound to give him every fair opportunity of en-
it;lng upon the merits of his case, and of asking for a Com-
tee of Inquiry.—( Hear.) In order to state his case pro-
pt
p-r'Y I conceive it to be more or less natural that the
et peti-
i should be printed. This is the usual course, and in
lilaarting from it, it would appear as if the House did
t intend to give the Hon. Gentleman a f sir hearing. If
oe.refore the question comes to a vote, I shall certainly vote
0l its being printed, but I may be allowed to make a few
exitrvations. I have a motion on the books with respect to
"g the day for taking into consideration the election petitions;
tiZefore I vote for the printing of the petition, in order
thvt the`' might go into the whole case of the subscription
toirLIAU Leen raised against the Irish seats ; and whatever
le "t he the result, he should hold himself at liberty
Ile 111" e for fixed days for the Election Petitions.
Ntiiiwas exceedingly sorry the Hon. Baronet, the Member for
te,tshire, had mixed up the preliminary discussion with mat-
riots cif extreme passion and excitement.—(Cheers.) He did
er think that was a course at all likely to secure a pro-
puecision on the question. However, when the proper
ca t,d came he should be prepared to state his opiiiion of the
itlaiuct of the Hon. Baronet, and of the statements he had
e.--( Loud cheers.)
1113 m ". SMITH O'BRIEN said that the shape in nhich
ileal motion should be framed would depend a great
to uFOn the result of the discussion of to night. One fact
teer'o''cli lie meant to bring the attention of the House to-
eote, night as that of an Hon. Member having be.
I.IQ II a subscriber to the fund.—( Cries of " Hear, hear:")
ttia ad, Principally risen now for the purpose cf offering
I)°l°gY to the Hon. Baronet the Member for Wiltshire,