The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-12 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL U.

The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour, but there
being a ballot for a Committee to try the merits of a petition
presented against the return of Mr. Luke White, for the
county of Longford, the gallery was not opened until a
quarter past four.
Captain CIIETWYND presented a petition from Stafford
in favour of the Manchester, Cheshire, and Staffordshire Rail-
way, and against the South Union Railway Bill.
Colonel SEALE presented a petition from an individual
in favour of the Hartlepool Railway Bill.
Mr. GREENE brought up the Report of the Committee on
the Clarence (Durham) Railway Bill.
Mr. WILBRAHAM presented a petition against the Pres-
ton and Wire Railway Bill.
SOUTHWARK AND HAMMERSMITH RAILWAY.
Mr. BAINES, who was in the gallery, having been called
upon by the Speaker, moved that all the petitions relative to
the Scuthwark and Hammersmith Railway Bill be referred to
the Committee on the Bill ; and that Mr. Wilks, Mr. Wason,
and Mr. Praed be added to the Committee.
The SPEAKER—You must come down.—( Laughter. )
Mr. WILKS thought the report of the Committee should
be printed, and they would then be able to ascertain whether
there was any necessity for the Hon. Member's motion.
The motion was then agreed to.
Sir J. Y. BULLER presented petitions in favour of the
Glasgow and Ayr Railway.
Lord CLEMENTS presented a petition from Leitrim
against the Lough Foyle Drainage Bill.
Lord G. LENNOX presented petitions against the London
and South Eastern Railway Bill.
The NOBLE LORD then, on behalf of the Hon. Member for
East Sussex, postponed the petition relative to the Dover
Railway till Thursday next.
CHURCH-RATES.

Petitions in favour of Church-rates were presented
by Mr. Farrand, Lord Stanley, Mr. Grove Price, Mr. Horace
Tw•iss, Mr. R. Palmer, and other Members; and in favour of the
abolition of Church-rates by Mr. Grote, Sir G. Strickland,
Mr. T. Duncombe, Major Beauclerk, Mr. Lennard, Mr Be-
nett, Mr. Tooke, and Mr. Aglionby, whose petition also prayed
for a Reform of the House o f Lords.

Lord G. LENNOX presented a petition against the Salmon
Fisheries Bill.

Mr. SCARLETT presented a petition against certain
clauses in the Imprisonment for Debt Bill.
LONGFORD ELECTION.

The Clerk of the Election Committees appeared at the Bar
with the reduced list, and the following Members having been
called over came to the table and were sworn by the Clerk :
Lord C. Russell, Sir Rufane Donkin, Mr. Edward Horsman,
Mr. Benjamin Hall, Mr. Rushout Bowles, Lord Viscount
Clive, Mr. Roland Alston, Mr. Thomas Hawke:, Mr. George
Houston, Mr. Andrew Lawson, and Sir J. C. Hobhouse.

SMITHFIELD MARKET.
Mr. TOOKE presented a petition from 6,000 inhabitants
of London, praying for the removal of Smithfield Market, on
the ground that it was a nuisance, and tended to the desecra-
tion of the Lord's Day.
Alderman WOOD assured the HOll.lO that these petitions
had been got up by persons interested in a railway which was
intended to terminate near the rival market at Islington.
Mr. TOOKE presented a petition from persons living
within the liberty of the Rolls, complaining of the inequality
of the land tax.

Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from Dublin
against the Dublin Police Bill.
POOR LAWS.
Mr. P. HOWARD presented a petition from a place in
Cumberland in favour of the Poor-law Amendment Bill.
Petitions against the Poor-law Bill were presented by Sir
J; Graham, Lord G. Somerset, Mr. Walters, and Lord
Henniker.

Sir A. L. HAY presented a petition in favour of the
Shipping Gazette.

Lord -CLEMENTS presented a petition from Leitrim,
praying for the abolition of tithes.
Mr. GROTE presented a petition from London, praying
for a repeal of the Corn Laws.
Petitions against the abolition of Church-rates were presen-
ted by Mr. Palmer, Sir. G. Sinclair, and Mr. Trevor; and in
favour of the abolition of Church-rates by Mr. Baines, from
Leeds, Huddersfield, and about 20 other places in Yorkshire.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented 34 petitions_ from various
places in Ireland, praying for the abolition of Tithes, and for
Vote by Ballot.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented petitions from Kerry
in favour of the Irish Municipal Bill.
On the motion of Mr. LABOUC HERE the Lords' Amend-
ment to the Mint Bill were agreed to.
BATH AND WEYMOUTH RAILWAY.
Mr. F. BUXTON presented a petition in favour of the
Bath and Weymouth Railway Bill.
Sir 0. MOSLEY presented a petition in favour of the
Manchester and Cheshire Railway, and a petition from Derby
praying for a reduction of the duty on Fire Insurances.
ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE MUNICIPAL
CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. HUME snored the Order of the Day for resuming the
adjourned debate on the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill, and
addressed the House in support of the Bill. The only opposition
given to the measure in the debate on the previous evening
was that it would endanger the stability of the Established
Church in Ireland. Ile begged to remind the House, that
in the year 1822, he had put forth that tranquillity could not
be expected in Ireland until the Established Church
was reduced to such limits as were commensurate
with the real wants of that part of the population
which adhered to its doctrines. Up to the present time, how-
ever, that Church was put forward as the apology for not
giving that justice to Ireland which had been conceded to
England and Scotland.—(Hear.) He most earnestly ad-
vised the friends of that Church, however, to yield in time,
as being the only mode of averting those dangers
with which it appeared to him that the Church was threatened.
He believed that the Church was not the real object which
Hon. Gentlemen opposite were so desirous of preserving. They
made the Church a stalking-horse, or rather the Protestant
religion, wherewith to cover the real object they had in view,
which was that of preserving the revenues and the sinecures
of the Church. It was openly advanced by lion. Mem-
bers opposite, that the Bill would not pass in ano-
ther House; but he begged leave to state that that
should be no argument with them. They had only to do their
duty in making this Bill as perfect as possible, and let the
other House of Parliament take all the responsibility of reject-

ing this measure, and denying- to the people of Ireland
equality of civil rights. He could not understand why the
majority of the people of Ireland should not have the same mea-
sure of justice as was meted out to the majorities of England
and Scotland. By the violent opposition to this Bill from
the Hon. Members opposite,they were only by these means driv-
ing headlong to destruction the Established Church which they
expressed themselves so anxious to preserve. Upon this ground
he maintained that that monstrosity in our Constitution—the
Irish Church—and he must say that our Constitution
would be purer and better if there were no Established
Church--but until the Irish Church ceased to be the dominant
religion, peace could not be hoped for in that country. In
England the religion of the State was the religion of the
majority, and thus also it was in Scotland. An Hon. Friend near
him said it was the true religion, but he was a wise man who
knew what the true religion was. They had seen every religion
in every county and in all ages asserted to be the true religion.
The increasing intelligence of the country, however, tended
every year to place the Established Church in greater jeo-
pardy—particularly in Ireland. ( Hear, hear.) If the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite rejected this Bill, they would ere
long have to regret that course. The measure before the Houso
was only one instalment of that which was due to Ireland,
and if it were rejected, such a rejection would only rouse
the people of Ireland to greater exertion against the
Established Church as their common enemy.--( Hear, hear.)
It was not his fault that reform had not gone on faster, and ho
hoped the day was not far distant when no party would be able
to be found who would say there was no such thing as Church
property. He trusted that past experience would not altogether
be lost on the Tories. He would say to the Hon. Member
for Kilkenny let the measure be rejected elsewhere, and if
that were the case, it would afford him double ground for agi-
tation. He cordially approved of the Bill then before the
Mouse, and he should give it his strenuous support.
Mr. A. TREVOR said he, and those who sat on his side of
the House, felt it their duty to uphold those principles which
had been handed down to them from their ancestors
and which had been sealed by their blood. He main-
tained that the Bill before the Houso would convert
Ireland from a Protestant into a Popish country. Concession
after concession had been made to the Roman Catholics; a
stand must be made somewhere, and he did not see that that
stand could be made in a better place than at the al-
tar of their religion.--( Hear.) If the Church were destroyed,
every other species of property would be destroyed also.
—( Hear.) He certainly should not have troubled the
House but for the denunciations of the Honourable Member
for Middlesex against that Church which he ( Mr. T.) loved and
cherished. Whatever might be the decision of the other House of
Parliament, he was certain it would be as satisfactory to the
nation, as it would be honourable.
Mr. GALLY KNIGHT altogether disapproved of the
Bill.

Mr. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Gentleman had given
them strong reasons for voting one way, and had declared his
wish to vote for the Bill, and yet persevered in the determina-
tion to vote against it. He should not now perform his duty
if he did not make an appeal once more to the English Le-
gislature, or rather to such portion of it as would condescend
to listen to him, and hear him again advocate his favourite de-
mand of " Justice to Ireland !" Yes; he demanded justice
for Ireland. There could be no tranquillity in that country,
.and God forbid there ever should be, till they obtained jus-
tice—till they obtained justice agitation should increase. But
the Honourable Gentleman ought to make his vote tally more
with his argument. Now, he ( Mr. O'Connell) called for jus-
tice for Ireland. Justice consisted in an equality of civil and
political rights. England enjoyed the advantages of Munici-
pal Corporations ; Scotland the same ; and should he be told
that Ireland should not have Municipal Government ? Sup-
pose Scotland and Ireland to have Municipal Corporations, and
to refuse them to England. Oh 1 what a show would they
make on the other side of the House, advocating the giving
Municipal Corporations to Scotland and Ireland, and re-
fusing them to England. He did not think they would ever
be again restored to their situations ; he did not believe that
they would ever have time to canvass their respective consti-
tuencies ; because he should hope that in such a case the
people of England would assert the right which they had to
resist oppression, and if necessary to terminate the contest by
the destruction of their tyrants. Though the Irish people had
been more accustomed to the domination of tyrants, Hon. Gen-
tlemen speculated wrongly if they thought the young heart of
Ireland showed so little emotion or feeling when she was re-
fused that which had been conceded to England and Scotland
as not to feel the wrong and the insult which were heaped upon
her. They might come forward with paltry pretences and
empty words—they might give them rage excuses—but what
signified their words ? Was not the fact this, that Scotland
and England had secured for themselves Municipal Reform,
and that Ireland had not any such advantage? What then
became of their words ? lie would defy the Hon. Member who
had preceded him, and those who might follow him, to point out
a single period of English history where England had ever go-
verned Ireland justly. It was a history covering a period of seven
hundred years ; and the grievances of the country, with the
actors in the Government, had differed in various transac-
tions, but the principles of each succeeding Government had
been the same—the grievances had been the same in amount
—the Government of Ireland had been still carried on un-
fairly and by faction. No Government could be unjust and
strong at the same time. They might try experiments by
these pretences—by the aid of religious bigotry, national
antipathy, and individual malevolence.—( Cries of " Hear,
hear.") But individual malevolence was so poor a motive .
to action that it -could not be admitted as an argument. Na-
tional antipathy was, indeed, the principle upon which those
persons had too long acted who opposed good government for
Ireland. To what extent had it been carried in another
House ? There to vituperation had been added insult, to in-
jury, which never could be sufficiently reprobated. The Hon.
Member for the University of Dublin had stated that he (Mr.
O'Connell) considered the municipal franchise of itself of little
value. Now he had the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who
had quoted a letter of his (Mr. O'Connell's.) In showing
that he undervalued this power, the Hon. Gentleman took not
the speech, but a letter of his (Mr. O'Connell's), and he read
this • paragraph :—" It is quite true that if Lord Lyndhurst
had contented himself with limiting his proposition to the mere
extinction of Corporations I would have voted for that Bill."
The Hon. Gentleman quoted this part of this paragraph to
show that he (Mr. O'Connell) was ready to vote for the ex-
tinction of tithes ; but he left out the concluding words—., and
looked for new Corporations immediately afterwards." This,
then, was a specimen of the candour which had marked the "
Hon. Gentleman's mode of proceeding. Did the Hon. Gen-
tleman deny these words ?
Mr. SHA W—No.
Mr. O'CONNEL L—Nor any other person for him ? The
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had made a
speech last night which exhibited less of his usual character,
and less of mental power than usual. The Noble Lord, too,
had dwelt much on the subject of the declaration which he
maintained was required to be made, but which had been
omitted in the present Bill ; he contended, too, that the 51-
franchise was too little in Londonderry, and made a difference
in the principle of the measure. The Noble Lord then re-
ferred to the question of the Sheriffs, and said he would rather
have them appointed directly by the Corporations. He (Mrs
O'Connell) could easily conceive why the Noble Lord would
prefer having them so appointed ; it would hereafter supply
him with a powerful argument against the Bill.—( Hear, hear.)
They had been told in the course of the discussion that the
question was now only one of time. It was admitted that
the time would eventually come when the Corporations of
Ireland must be reformed ; but, said the Honourable Gentle-
men opposite, it is not convenient for us to reform them at
present. Was it right or proper—would the house sanction
such a course—that the Irish nation should be insulted and
kept in a constant state of agitation upon a paltry question /Of
time?—( Hear, hear. )—What an argument to place ir. the
mouths of the repealers I—( Hear, hear.) "We admit that
you are aggrieved, but we will not remove the fetters we have
fixed upon you until it suits our pleasure and convenience to
do so."—( Hear.) If the Hon. Gentlemen opposite stood
upon a bold and distinct ground, and said that the Corporations
should not be reformed at all, or that they should be totally ex-
tinguished, and nothing of the kind substituted in their stead,
there would be some consistency in their conduct ; but bow
paltry, how insignificant, how unworthy of themselves, how
insulting to Ireland, was their behaviour, when they said
" We know you are aggrieved, but the time at which it may.
please us to wipe away your wrong has not just yet arrived.'
—( Hear, hear, hear.) Why would not they do it then ?
They told them (them, the representatives of Ireland)
that the Irish people were not fit to receive British institutions.
Not fit to receive them 1 The tendency of British institutiona
was to elevate the human character. Then, if the Irish people
were not sufficiently elevated in the scale of civilisation, the
way to raise them, and to render them ultimately fit for the
enjoyment of British institutions, was to give them British In-
stitutions at. once.—( Hear, hear.) This argument of unftness
for the reception of British institutions was the same that had
been advanced against the Irish people for the last 600 years:
They had always been told that they were not fit for Britist!
institutions. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman here entered
into a narrative of the tyranny and oppression practised upon
Ireland, by the dominant Protestant interest, from the time of
the Reformation ; and contended that the old corrupt Corne-
rations, whose battle was fought by the Hon. Gentlemen On
site, were remnants of that old system of oppression which
ought now to be wholly reformed. The protracted debates
upon the subject of Corporate Reform in that House, the inso-
lent tone adopted elsewhere, showed that in many bosoms
hateful feelings towards Ireland still existed, strong and war'
—( Hear.) It was the duty of the British House of Comm?t _
to put an end, if not to those feelings—for that might e
But
possible—but at least to the system that arose out of them. _
they were told that if this concession were made—if a reformr,..i
of
Municipal Corporations were allowed—other and more powes
attacks would be made against the Established Church ;andthe
speech of his (Mr. O'C.'s) had been quoted, to show that
present measure were granted he should employ it as Vione.
in-
strument to procure the abolition of tithes ? The flen',.s not
ber for Cumberland, who spoke last night, said, " It is
my fault if connect the topics of the Church with thatave
the Corporations. lam compelled to do so because thela
rned
been previously connected by the Honourable and
_idered
Member for Kilkenny," He (Mr. O'Connell) een_s hods
both as grievances, and no doubt had mentioned them not
at the same time—perhaps in the came breath ; but 11 other..
follow that he had in any way linked them with easu
The fact was, that to him the existence of each of those.
Brie -
Tate° '`'"f
vances was a weapon of strength.—( Hear, hear.
either of these, and he was at once deprived e) f 411.! °.fhohnsis
most powerful arguments in the cause of Ireland. ea: ''t ad.
both away, and he at once changed places with his pres,aear.)
versaries—they would become strong, he v"-sk• dorporas
Whilst it was denied that either the Church or the,
flower
tions, as at present constituted, was a grievance, his roared
Ireland—he. f
must continue. He stood there for justice to this
act
not with what ribaldry he was met. He 'mid with hir_l baci not
=.England had reform, Scotland hut reform, Ireland

h;

reform. Even in the measure of Parliamentary Reform lie raised
its voice in rain to obtain for Ireland as large a reform as was
given to England and to Scotland. Again he raised his voice
and entreated that his country might be placed on the same
foOting as regarded Municipal Corporations as England and
Scotland. To those who endeavoured to withhold the boon
he would only say, " Your paltry Corporations, the last rem-
nant of your tyranny and oppression, may give you a tempo-
rary protection, but I tell you emphatically that seven millions
of Irishmen will not endure them long. The elders amongst
us may bear with it, because we have been bred up in servility,
but there is young and violent blood in Ireland which will not
long submit to the tyranny practised upon ourselves and our
fathers."—( Cheers.)
Mr. FINCH contended that the principle laid down by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, if carried
out to its full extent, would lead to the inevitable destruc-
tion of the Established Church in Ireland. He (Mr. Finch)
maintained that there was no need of Corporatioaa in Ire-
land, and that they could confer no benefit upen the peo-
Ale. Where was the advantage resulting from Corporations
even in England ? There were the two cities of London and
Westminster ; the first had a Corporation, the second had
none; yet whoever heard of any man's removing from West-
minster to London in the expectation of deriving any greater
benefit because the latter was governed by a Municipal body.
---( Hear, hear.) It was presposterous to hear Honourable
Gentlemen, night after night, contending that the people of
Ireland would be deprived of a benefit if the Corporations
in that country were wholly abolished. It was equally ab-
surd to say that Ireland must have Corporations because
England and Scotland had them. There was little identity of
law between the two countries. It had been said that Ireland
was much more tranquil than it was a few years ago. He ad-
mitted it was so ; but he denied most of the inferences which
gentlemen opposite wished to draw from this circumstance.
He must, however, deny that there was that astonishing de-
crease of crime in that country that had been asserted ; and as
eorrohoratary of this, he would appeal to the charge of the
Learned Judge at the late Kilkenny assizes. To pass this
Bill would be nothing more nor less than plunging that coun-
try into the greatest possible state of discord, and place it
more under the controul of the priests and agitators. This
measure would also make the Church insecure ; and he sin-
cerely believed that that establishment was the chief means cf
restraining the encroachments of the Church of Rome. He
was anxious to see an influx of British property into Ireland ;
but this never would take place as long as agitation prevailed,
and the priesthood exercised to such an enormous extent their
baneful influence. He should give his most strenuous opposi-
tion to this Bill.
Colonel I'. P. THOMPSON could not help feeling that
one circumstance had been left out of consideration in
the discussion of this question; namely, how the young
blood cf England would regard a contest with Ireland,'
which the party opposite seemed determined to force on.
(Hear, hear.) He had been anxious to find out what
was the under-current of men's feeling towards Ireland, and
he was convinced that tile people would never sanction a resort
to force.
Mr. WILLIAM ROCHE addressed the House in support
of the Bill, but in such a low tone of voice that his observa-
tions were inaudible in the Gallery.
Mr. VILLIERS did not wonder at the course which the
discussion had taken upon this question being the subject of
general remark, and that astonishment was expressed that a
Measure which was thought of sufficient importance to justify
resistance at the expense of offending the pride and feeling of
numbers of our fellow-subjects should go forth from this
House to be thrown out in the other House without an ar-
gument being offered in answer to those by which it had been
suPPerted, and that here, in this second stage of the debate,
that ee should hear only repeated those personalities, those
f •
aliacui, that bigot cry,' which had done so little credit to the
House on the former occasion, and which then been the
suhect of such just reproof from this side of the House.
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He (Mr. Villliers) was not cur-
Prised at this, as he had observed from the first a deliberate
Purpose on the other side to remove the question from its na-
tural province, and to argue and to use it for other purposes;
aall,(1. whether wisely or not, he had seen that the other side,
mistinguished as it was from this upon principle, were deter-
rtuled to take their stand before the country on this question.
had been selected to make an experiment upon the present
°Pinion of the country. The reform of the institutions of the
(tru"Mil', and the resistance to that reform, had brought the
Sggle now to a question of principle, and the ground was
now fairly taken, on which contest the power by which the
talicy of this country was to be guided and governed in future.
The question then was, whether the general policy of the Go-
vernment of this country was to be dictated to by the House of
Lord' or the House of Commons. That was fairly the con-
fl
tict in which we were engaged. The advocates of governing
his country by the House of Lords say that we have gone too
tar in reform—that its progress should be arrested, and that
an opposite policy should be adopted ; and if, say they, the
Popular party have gained strength by introducing the repre-
sentative principle into the municipalities of England and
Scotland, they will stand between them and any accession of
their strength to be derived from a similar source in
Ireland ; and the Lords aro now cheered on to persist
in the course they have pursued for three Sessions
Past, and are encouraged to believe that, if they will show
courage and energy equal to the task, they may accomplish
the object and obtain that dominion in this House which they
formerly possessed for so long a period. It was known that
hthree great triumphs in the cause of civil and religious liberty
ad been achieved of late years. One was the improvement
the representation, or the Reform Bill ; the other was the
Municipal Corporation Bill ; the other was the removal of re-
ligious tests for Members to sit in Parliament, or the Catholic
Bill. Now, he would ask any man to say if it was not the
burden of every Tory song—if it was not the topic in politics
in every company of that party—and that all the evils which
had visited this country since that time were to be ascribed to
the passing of one or all of those measures • and that the insti-
tutions of the country, nay, that the English Constitution, could
not be preserved unless those measures were modified, as they
called it, but repealed, as they did not scruple to say, they in-
tended ? But did it only depend upon what they said ? Let any
Man look to what they did. Last year an attempt was made in
the House of Lords to tamper with the Reform Bill. In every
Court now there is an attempt going on to undermine the Mu-
nicipal Bill. There has not been a Session pass since the enact-
Ment of the Catholic Bill that Members have not come down
to this House and avowed their regret at passing that Bill,
and who have declared that they never would be parties to it
tgain if the choice was again offered to them. Now, we know
at for men to seek power upon the avowed intention of re-
Pealing these measures of justice would defeat their object.
fit.!renust be taken, therefore, not to awaken alarm ; much
efs is now set upon the apparent indifference of the people ;
well not to rouse them from their slumber. It becomes
snquestion, then, how popular vigilance was diverted for so
til4.Y Years in this country before; and how was attention
1„,1)Z
`llort Wd fromh the reform of real abuses to matters of trifling
y, it was, as it is known by appealing to the reli-
qua fears of the people on the score, of the Catholic faith, and
oalar ring an ancient prejudice once deeply rooted in the
ream against all persons of that persuasion. It is, therefore,
illteeed now that what a Catholic question did before a Ca-
tut question will do now ; and what we have raised before us
far Catholic question—the very question which occupied us
chars° many years? We have it in all its ferocity, in all its
.n.ll,e:teristies of intolerance. Not an argument was used
-1-14111 t the admission of Catholics into this House that has
into n advanced against the introduction of Catholics
ahoue Corporations. The cry of Popery is raised, and
kone`ed forth in all the vigour of former times ; and all
04-4' and all expectation of return to power, is now built on
peopleess of this cry. But the great question is, can the
they again be deluded by a " church in danger" cry ? Do
ts 4 new understand the true character of that cry ? Do they
whe-
ther in all its bearings? He (Mr.
Villiers) would ask whe-
psyrseErotestants ever obtained any reform while Catholics were
Were For nearly twenty years, while the Catholics
-eleasaes
n, -Un emancipation, was it not the boast of all the
g,er clever men of party, that there was no real dan-
aatithoil-eving the restrictions upon Catholics, but that the
that
soe question was the outwork of the citadel of abuse;
I%sorlta .11°11g as the Reformers were knocking at those out-
that then
all safe within; but, if they were once destroyed,
nothin a all the mysteries of misrule would be examined, and
or were
twiloeu;dwbroongle,ft in peace within ? But were they right,
From 1812 to who reasoned so? What was the. case ?
Was reform° 1829
this
during, that tim
r.) uestion was in constant agitation.
obtained, question was in constant agitation.
during th otained, or even ventured to be asked for,
tcsnise e • In 1829 the Bill was passed. Now mark the
-"e Scotchcience la 1831 the Reform Bill was carried ; in 1832
step t ln
were reformed; and in 1833 the first
Leduceactkeil?
number.
,reform the Irish Church, and the Bishops were
Vest /Rd. 'not-113er. In 1834 the slaves were set free in the
the too.ies, and trade set free in the East Indies. In 1835
Paper ish Municipal Bill was carried. In 1836 the news-
the . press was released from part of its trammels. In 1837
ah h°Pes of the opposite party revive, and why ? Because
eicZlicrortunity is thought to be observed for raising, a reli-
-3tleasureYl and stepping the progress of reform in future. A
the
seen
wisdom and justice is proposed for the Irish people,
f whom are still Catholic. A ray of the old pre-
stleaion
I flickering about the country against that per-
114kb thoset is immediately hoped that it will be possible to
tagaie obsen.wretched shreds together, and devise a means of
ereat ring the popular vision in all that concerns its in-
b. 0 4". if once accomplished, the unreforming process
ry begin •
Orin, I.taS work. What is there that stands between re-
tty ? "t About' ye been carried and the designs of the opposite
Iva ealcoiat sixty Members of this House. But what are
L by, that if nbs that one hears whispered about this House ?
y any device the present Government should
a—uienl°r!d, these sixty men ma be reduced in number ;
that gain, if an appeal is made. to the country,b we hear
there is much for the
opposite
o-• bo-
party to hope in the
Rh,
of _ _ laving become nomination
ouse !e landed proprietors, who arc identified with the_ pe hoped Lords, and tha.t, a majority may be thus secured.
the °Y
the iriXie people of h.ngland would stand nobly forward
En_,.s. people on this oecacon, as the Irish always had by
th:.,,, h when they were seeking reform, and show that
d..ad intelligence and public spirit enough not to become. of dud
of the hateful cry which was to become the ground
eatahnooitih erreligious crusade against persons professing the
tuain faith. The Catholics in this country engaged in the
tenanetass of life with all the integrity and steadiness of Pro-
A;`"!e. and he happened to know how: in many instances, the
le clergy in this country inspired the love and esteem of
tionclnel-e
neighbour in which they were known. To th
reli
o.
n.rt the
but to Irish he saw no reason to trace the disorders of that ands t 3', centuries of misrule by Protestants : lie saw
bone 4,a,.0t cause for their misfortune. To change the condition
eoUntry he was willing to make any experiment, and
tags as he had e
age ag that svhiceher heard of led him to expect such advan-
ces.
eredence in their twas calculated to inspire in the people a
_ocal authorities.—( Cheers.)
Lord
pt.
AdV ii..I2QN rose for the purpose of denying that

either he, or those with whom he acted, were hostile to the
Roman Catholics as such. What they wished was to prevent
the rise of Roman Catholic ascendancy on the ruins of Pro-
testant ascendancy in Ireland, and the destruction of the esta-
blished religion there. It was quite impossible to disconnect
the Church of Ireland from the question of Municipal Reform
there. This was a fact which, were it not otherwise perfectly
clear, was rendered undeniable by the circumstance that of the
283 petitions which had up to the preceding day been presented
from Ireland in favour of this measure, not fewer than 215
prayed also for the abolition of tithes.—( Hear, hear.) It had
been said that this change in the Municipal Institutions of Ire-
land was universally called for. This assertion was flatly con-
tradicted by the fact that of the 47 towns proposed to be incor-
porated only 23 had sent petitions in support of the measure.
Viscount MO R PET H rose to trouble the House with a few
observations. The Noble Lord and his friends were quite
wrong in supposing that it was the wish of Members to invest
the Roman Catholics of Ireland, as such, with any exclusive
privileges ; it was not their wish to do this any more than it
was their wish to give these exclusive privileges to the Pro-
testants of Ireland. What they aimed at was to do away with
exclusive privileges altogether, and to give to all classes alike
equal privileges. The Noble Lord stated that this was not
the time for the measure ; that the hour was not auspicious,
or he might be inclined not to oppose it. The planetary con•
junctions were not favourable. The Noble Lord, it seemed,
could not consider this Bill, because the Irish Poor-law Bill
bad not been read a second time, and because the Irish Tithe
Bill had not been introduced at all. He (Lord Morpeth)
certainly wished that they could make a more rapid progress
with measures. But he was by no means sure that by attempt-
ing to proceed with several at the same time they might not
entangle them with one another, so as to occasion consider-
able confusion. The interests of the Established Church, it I

was said, would be endangered by the operation of this mea-
sure. How, he was quite at a loss to conceive. It would affect
none of the revenues ; it would interfere with none of the mi-
nisters ; it would touch none of the doctrines of the Church.
His Noble Friend the Member for South Lancashire had
alluded to the character of the petitions which had been
presented on the subject. If his Noble Friend wanted any
confirmation of the state of public feeling on the subject in
Ireland, let him look at the address presented to his Majesty
about three weeks ago, bearing two hundred and fifty thou-
sand signatures ; of which address the single and exclusive
object was the acquisition of Corporate Reform.---( Hear,
hear.) Was it not a most desirable thing to endeavour to oc-
cupy mens' minds with their own local concerns? Would not
that object be promoted by the Bill ? A complaint was made
of the difference of the qualifications in the English and Scotch
and in the Irish Municipal Corporation Bills ? They did
differ. The Irish Bill could not comprehend a qualification
similar to that of the English Bill, for there was no corres-
ponding rate. The 101. qualification in 1833, was avowedly
introduced to prevent the evil of self-election, and the fact
was, that the evils and inconveniences of the higher qualifica-
tion having been felt in Scotland, there was, at this moment,
a Bill on the table to give the five-pound qualification to 39
of the smaller boroughs in Scotland.—( Cheers from the Op-
position ) Gentlemen cheered ; but were there no prece-
dents for this in Tory legislation within the last twenty years ?
Acts had been passed within that period applying to some of
the Scotch boroughs that were not Royal, settling the qualifi-
cation. In Airdrie, with a population of six thousand, the
qualification for a burgess, by an Act of 1821, was the payment
of three guineas. In Bathgate, with a population of 2,600,
the qualification was property or tenancy of a house of the rent
of 31. or upwards, paying 21. 2s. for the privilege. In the
borough of Kilsythe the qualification was a 5/. rent, and in Pol-
lockshaws the possession of property of the yearly value of 4/.
Now let it be considered how small a number of 101. house-

---,-
holders was to be found in many of the Irish towns. He would
read a list of some of them :

Registered £lO House
Population. holders in 1333.
Athlone 11,406
Carlow
Cashell
Dungannon
Drogheda - 261
Tr.:lee
Waterford

You&hal 11,327.
232
_ _

From these returns it was evident that in applying to the
towns in quest'on a qualification exceeding 5/., the constitu-
ency would be rendered much too scanty. And what, after
all, was the qualification fixed by the Bill ? The very quali-
fication of the Act of the 9th of George I V., which was such
an exclusive favourite with the benches opposite. A great ob-
jection which had been made to the Bill was, that the present
Corporations had many functions which the new ones were not
to have. The argument was, that the new Corporators being
left comparatively idle, would necessarily be mischievous.
And the very ingenious and logical conclusion was what they
ought to have nothing whatever to do.—( Hear, hear.) But
seemed the Irish were not so civilised as the English,
and therefore were not fit to have any Municipal Corpo-
rations. But surely they were as civilised as our ancestors
were when the Saxons and Normans established Corporations;
or as the people of Italy were when they established those
free Corporations which preceded their wonderful burst of
science, and learning, and art. He would here allude to a
very eloquent article which appeared in the last number of the
Quarterly Review, an article written with great ability and
spirit. In the first place, however, to show that the writer of
that article did not concur in the view which his Majesty's
present Government took of ecclesiastical matters, he would
read a paragraph from the article on that point :—" Instead of
reducing the number of Churches, it should multiply; instead
of uniting parishes, divide and sub-divide ; instead of merely
repairing Churches, build them where there is little demand
for them, and therefore the more need. We should not wait
for a Church till a congregation is formed, but form a congre-
gation by building a Church." This paragraph showed that
the writer's views of ecclesiastical matters were very dif-
ferent from those of his Majesty's present Government. But
what did he say of Corporations ? " Let us remember that
Europe owes all its liberty, its knowledge, its wealth, its
power, to incorporations, and we shall then understand why,
in the eyes of our law, they have as true an existence, as
much reality, as distinct rights, as much claim to respect and
delicacy of treatment, as any individual." And a little fur-
ther, " Opinion has little weight, and very little logical
strength, unless it comes from a community. The different
tempers and acquifements of individuals, acting and counter-
acting on each other, form the best check upon error. They
give ♦alidity to testimony, expansion to views, modification to
hasty generalities, authority to individual character, and cau•
tion and steadiness to impetuosity. And thus the State, as
well as the Church, has always placed her councils and laws
in the hands of corporate bodies."—( Hear, hear.) He would
conclude by expressing his confidence that the House would
not refuse to Ireland the benefit of such valuable institutions ;
and that they would not allow a difference of creeds, or of
worldly interests, to generate such a malicious animosity as to
produce harsh and arbitrary proscription. The Bill under
consideration involved a principle, the establishment of which
would make the prosecution of the other measures a task of
easier accomplishment ; a principle which was at the root of all
the questions bearing on the connection between the two coun-
tries, and the establishment of which was inseparable from their
joint tranquillity and happiness.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, the Noble Lord had ad-
verted to the qualification in the Scotch Municipal Corpo-
rations Bill. Now he (Sir James Graham) appealed to
those who remembered the debates on that Bill, whether a
proposition for making the qualification Si. was not proposed,
and whether it was not resisted by Lord Grey's Government,
on the ground that if the qualification for the elective franchise
for Members of Parliament were departed from in the Muni-
cipal Corporations Bill, it would become difficult afterwards
to maintain the qualification for the elective franchise at 101.
But the Noble Lord said there was a Bill in progress to re-
duce the qualification in Scotland to Si. The fact was, that
everything that had been done by Lord Grey's Government
with reference to the elective franchise, was now made the
object of attack. It appeared to be the anxious desire of the
present Government upon that subject to loosen and untie
what it had been the policy of Lord Grey's Government to
bind up and render permanent.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord bad read a statement of the small number of 101. house-
holders in proportion to the population in several of the
Scottish towns. The inference which he (Sir James Graham)
was disposed to draw from that statement was, that those
towns ought not to have been inserted in the schedules.
So strongly was he sensible of the evils which resulted from
permitting political to be ii,fluenced by religious considera-
tions, that he could scarcely avoid exclaiming, in the words
of the Latin poet—
" Tantum religio pertuit suadere malorum."
In the present unhappy case, the connection between politics
and religion was clear and not denied. The opponents of the
measure were asked, in what consisted the danger apprehended
from it to the Church of Ireland ? That was the most im-
portant question to be considered. As far as it was practi-
cable to collect the public sentiment in Ireland with respect to
the Church, the sentiment of the great majority, it might be
gained from that unhappily constituted body, called the Na-
tional Association. He would read the resolutions on that
subject of the National Association, passed unanimously and
by acclamation within the last three months. The first reso-
lution was as follows :—" That it is incompatible with the
principles of religious liberty that any man should be com-
pelled to pay for the ordinances of a Church with which he is
not joined in communion."—( Hear, hear, hear.) Did the
Hon. Gent.emen on the other side mean by their cheers to
indicate their approbation of this resolution? The second re-
solution was, " That as under the present appropriation of the
tithe composition a tribute is levied from the whole nation
for the uses of the Church of only the one-tenth portion of
the community, the people of Ireland are, therefore, jus-
tified in demanding the total extinction of an assessment so
applied." There were no cheers on the other side now.__( A
laugh.) He should like to know whether these were the prin-
ciples on which the new Tithe Bill was to be founded. The
third resolution was—" That, in our opinion, no settlement
of the Tithe question can give satisfaction to the people of
Ireland which is not founded on the foregoing principles."
That was carrying the matter much farther than the appro-
priation clause. He should not be surprised to see the ap-
propriation clause thrown out, and the voluntary principle
substituted for it. The fourth resolution was as follows
That we call upon the people of Ireland not to desist from
all legal and constitutional means of redress till they have ob-
tained full and complete relief from an impost equally oppres-
sive and degrading." It thus appeared that in the opinion of
the Association any support of the Irish Church was oppres-
sive and degrading. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had stated that all that was said on that (Sir J.
Graham's) side of the !louse respecting the Honourable and
Learned Member for Kilkenny only magnified and increased
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's power. That from the
benches opposite ! Hid they forgotten the appointment o
Mr. Pigott ? Had they forgotten the appointment 9f Mr.

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 12, 183?

O'Dwyer ? Had they forgotten the appointment of the
last two Assistant-Barristers, both of whom were mem-
bers of the National Association ? He ( Sir James
Graham) was the last man to deny the talents, the
power, the influence of the Honourable and Learned Member
for Kilkenny. But was not the weight of those talents, of that
power, of that ielluence, felt by his Majesty's Government ?
Did they not retain office, during the last Session, mainly by
the a3sistance of that Hon. end Learned Gentleman?—( Hear.)
Now, let the House have that Hon. Gentleman's opinion with
respect to the Irish Church ; and he ( Sir James Graham) was
not about to quote any hasty expression—( Cries of " Ques-
tion")—but he would quote from a letter of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Kilkenny, written in a calm moment, in
answer to a question put to him by the Hon. Member for
Northumberland ( Mr. W. Beaumont). The letter was dated
Derrynane Abbey, Dec. 30, 1836 :—" You ask, first—' If
believe that Ireland ever will be, or ought to be, tranquil, unti
the religion of the majority is placed on an equal footing, ii
every respect, with that of the minority ?'" The answer wa.
as explicit and clear as ever was given to a plain, straightfor-
ward question :—" My answer is ready. Ireland cannot pos-
sibly be—she, in my opinion, ought not to be—tranquil, until
the religion of the majority is placed on an equal footing, in
every respect, with that of the minority."—( Loud cheers from
the Ministerial side.) So that now it was a question of equality
as between the two Establishments. But the Hun. and Learned
Gentleman said something further; and he ( Sir J. Graham)
should be curious to hear whether this would be greeted by a
cheer also : —" I add, that until then she will not be—and, while
I live, she certainly shall not be—free from salutary, but peace
ful and energetic agitation ; that is, until perfect religious
equality—without one particle of political, civil, or temporal
ascendancy at either or any side—is firmly established." Now,
what was the interpretation of this equality ? Why, the Hon.
Member went on to say----" I am convinced that the peace,
tranquillity, and prosperity of Ireland require the establish-
ment amongst us of the voluntary principle of maintaining
religion; and that as long as any pecuniary ascendancy, as
long as any power remains to a Protestant minister to put his
hands into the pockets of the Catholics, so long dissension,
dissatisfaction, and turmoil will reign paramount in Ireland.
The people of Ireland join me in this contemptuous disclaimer
of longer supporting, out of our means, that Church ;" " we
never will be parties to our own degradation, by acquiescing
for one moment in the superiority of a Church to which we do
not belong." Until, then, this voluntary principle was esta-
blished, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman declared that ener-
getic agitation should never cease. But, !said his Majesty's
Attorney-General for Ireland, " I do not quarrel with the pre-
sent position of the Established Church in Ireland." Why, he
( Sir J. G.) was not astonished to find that that Learned Gent.,
being a Roman Catholic, did not quarrel with the present po-
sition of the Established Church in Ireland; more espe-
cially when he heard the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ire-
land, and his colleagues, as Ministers of the King, declare
the Protestant Church to be a rotten Church.—( Lord
Viscount Morpeth here said, " No, no.") If the Noble Lord
retracted his words he was happy to hear it ; but he cer-
tainly understood him to say it was a rotten position. Now
he would not shrink from saying, that no man supported the
concession of the claims of the Roman Catholics more
warmly or more conscientiously than he himself did. But
under what promises did he do so ?—( Hear, hear.) Why he
had the solemn oaths and declarations of some of the most
distinguished members of the Catholic body—( Loud cheers) ;
—he had the most solemn assurance of the most distin-
guished Roman Catholics, that all assaults on the Estab-
lished Church should cease. Now, with reference to the
present demand for concession, they were told, " You may
make it if you will ; but agitation shall never cease in Ire-
land until we are placed on an equality." War was declared
—war to the knife with the Church Establishment. There
was no mistake on this occasion, for they were told that the
Irish people looked to a greater and ulterior object. Now,
there was a point made by the Noble Lord the Member for
North Lancashire, with regard to the omission of the declara-
tion that the corporate offices should not be used for any pur-
poses trenching upon the interests of the Establishment;
and certainly a more whimsical answer than that given
by the Attorney-General for Ireland he had never heard
—he should say, indeed, it was purely Irish, for lie
said, that supposing the Municipal Bill passed, that would be
a reason why the oaths should be dispensed with. He would
say that a strong objection to this measure in its present shape
was that it would be a most powerful lever whereby the de-
struction of the Established Church in Ireland might be of
fected. He had said he stood not there to frame a bill of in-
dictment against the people of Ireland. The right of the
people of Ireland, prima facie, to their municipal rights was
felt ; and the onus to prove the exception rested with those
who opposed the measure. It was the peculiar circumstances
in which the Established Church was placed in Ireland which
were to be considered. He thought it was a matter worthy of
the attention of his Majesty's Government ; and for one he
would distinctly say, that if he could ace the Church of Ire-
land placed in a position of greater security, he should be
happy. But he would say if the Government introduced a
Tithe Bill with the appropriation clause, it must contain a
principle which was inadmissible as applicable to the English
as well as the Irish Church ; and he never could give his con-
sent to the third reading of this Bill.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could well conceive that it must
have been the wish of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to
have had the debate closed on the previous evening, for a po-
sition more difficult or more embarrassing than that in which the
Right Hon. Gentleman was placed he had never witnessed in
that House. On former occasions, and upon the very last dis-
cussion of this question, the proposition raised by Hon. Gentlemen
on the other side of the House was, that Municipal Corporations
ought not even to be reformed, but that they were to be en-
tirely abolished in Ireland. This was an argument which he
thought was untenable—it was one which he thought there
was not much to be said upon, in support of the views of
those who supported it ; but it was an argument which,
in comparison to the
.present, must be paralysing to those
who had to maintain it, that these parties yielded with
great propriety to the declaration or the House, that mu-
nicipal corporations in Ireland ought not to be abolished—
that they might and must be reformed—that at the present
time, and in the present state of society, and with the provi-
sions of the Bill, its clauses with respect to tolls and other
matters before them, there was one half of a body of persons
to be found who thought it improper to aetee to municipal
corporations in Ireland, and there was another half who were
also laying the groundwork of the downward path of conces-
sion ; for the downward path most truly it was when the just
desire of a great portion of the people having been long re-
fused, the matter was to be wrung from those who withheld
it, by their fears. That was the downward path, and if in
that spirit they were to concede a boon, they could not be be-
forehand with the people. If indeed those concessions were
made willingly—if the people asked of them that which they
wished to enjoy for themselves, they must delight in partaking,
of those privileges with them. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in
the greater part of his speech, had dwelt but little upon the
subject immediately in debate ; but he had touched upon
questions relating no doubt to the posture of affairs and
the general situation of Ireland. He (Lord John Russell)
would endeavour to prove the points upon which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had dilated. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
catching at the 51. franchise in Scotland, which bad been men-
tioned by the Noble Lord near him, had made that the occa-
sion of a taunt against the present Government, and con-
trasted their mode of proceeding with that of Earl Grey's
Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman had attached
much importance to this point ; this franchise in Scotland was
spoken of as a vital question. Now what was the fact with re-
ference to this vital question respecting the 5/. franchise pro-
posed for Scotland, oss whicsh it was pretended so much inte-
rest was taken by Earl Grey's Government ? Why did the
Noble Lord and others forget the subject coming on of a
Wednesday ? He remembered that the Ministers dined with
him (Lord J. Russell) on that day, and he certainly did not
remember that any one of the Members of Earl Grey's Go-
vernment expressed an opinion on the question. He would
not be quite sure, but he supposed that his Right Hon. Friend
the Member for Cumberland must have been one of the din-
ner party.—( Hear, and a laugh.) Undoubtedly there might
be some small points upon which the line taken by the pre-
sent Government might be different from that taken by Earl
Grey's Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that
the people of Ireland did not ask for this Bill, but he thought
it was generally'admitted that they did ask for it. -
Sir JAMES GRAHAM here observed that the Corpo-
rate towns did not a:sk for it.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Right Hon. Baronet said
the Corporate towns did not ask for this measure ; but the
people of Ireland generally did, he supposed he would allow.
And then the Right Hon. Gentleman touched upon a topic
which he should have thought he ought to have omitted, after
tae previous speeches, narnely,lthat of the misfortune of mixing
up politics with religion. Now hardly any Hon. Member had
mingled religion with politics. If, indeed, any one had brought
forward religious matter, it had been the Right Hon. Gentle-
man himself who had done so. He would ask what was the
meaning of the passage which the Right Hon. Baronet read
from a pamphlet giving a clscription of the Spanish priest-
hood on aformer occasion ? Did he, or did he not, mean to ap-
ply that paragraph to the priests of Ireland? And he would
say, if he did so for this purpose, was it fair to make this sort
of wholesale accusation against the priests of six millions of
people, and then give them a solemn lecture on the impropriety
of mixing up religion with politics? The Right Hun. Gentle-
man had said that his Noble Friend (Lord Morpeth) near him
had declared this not to be a vital question. Now what his
Noble Friend did state was this, that there were other vital
questions to be considered, but that this was not, perhaps, the
most vital. He (Lord John Russell) had declared on former
nights that this was a question in which he thought the Go-
vernment of Ireland ought -to be considered, and that he con-
ceived it to be a vital question with the prusent administration.
Then, again, the Right Hon. Gentleman told them that he
would not agree to this Bill, because certain resolutions had
been introduced into it by the General Association of Ireland.
Now, he would ask a question or two on this head by and bye,
with reference to the declaration which he had made; but in
the meantime he would beg to tell the Right Hon. Gentleman
that, threadbare as the debate was, one of his taunts was even
still more so, namely, that his Majesty's present Government
existed by the support of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Kilkenny. Undoubtedly, when a Ministry was supported by
no very considerable majority—( Hear, from the Opposition
benclies)----and yet not in the position of Honourable Gen-
tlemen opposite, who were left every night in a minority when
in power, if any portion of those who voted usually with them
were to vote against them, the case must be altered, and
then they must have lost the confidence of the House.—
( Cries of " Hear, hear.") It appeared that the Honour-
able and Learned Member for Kilkenny supported them, but
it also appeared that a section of that side of the House con-
sisted of the oldest Whigs, who, if they thought the Govern-
ment were disposed to deal too violently in going the down-
s%ard path, must become their opponents—a fact which would
be equally fatal to the present Ministry. What was there,

then, in this taunt of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as to the I complete and final satisfaction in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) And
smallness of the majority in favour of the Ministry ? What did I his opinion also was, that if they (the House of Commons)
it amount to but this—that the Hon. and Learned Member I were to accept, clause for clause and word for word, the
for Kilkenny, although be did not agree with the Government 1 Bill sent down to them from the House o 7 Lords, that
in many of their opinions, nevertheless thought it right to Bill would not produce final and complete security to the
give them his independent support, because he saw in their Church in Ireland.—(llear, hear.) Such ware the iliticul-
measures a better prospect for the future fate of Ireland ? ties attendant upon a settlement of the question. He quite
When he said this, he (Lord John Russell) was not responsi- agreed with Right Hon. Gentleman opposite that the placing.
ble for the opinions of the Hon, and Learned Member for the charge for the Established Church more upon the Protes-
Kilkenny. as he was not responsible for his (Lord John Rue-.I taut landholders, and less upon the R ,man Catholic tenants
sell's). There was a common rumour in the world that at the would operate materially to make the security of the Church
great crisis of the Reform Bill, when all the agents and or- in Ireland much greater than it then - was. He was also of
gang of the Tory party were engaged in abusing the Earl of opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite that the giv-
Harrowby and Lord Wharncliffe as waverers, they were told, ing the people of Ireland a feeling that soe art at least thse
when they wished to go on with the Reform Bill, that if vast revenues were employed for the benefit of theof greeat
they would not consent to strike out schedule A, or postpone mass of the population was another means by which the
it, the party would not go down to vote. This was one of general feciiag of the •country might in some degree be conci!i-
the many instances in which rumour had declared that the ated. There (continued the Noble Lord) are many opinions
more violent part of a body had defeated the more moderate. upon the subject. Ido not pretend to say that I see any
The General Association of Ireland had declared, as the way by which a final and complete settlement of the ques-
Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny had also declared, tion can be made. Yet Ido hope—l do sincerely wish—
er' opinion in favour of the voluntary principle. The Hen. that Parliament may devise some means by which the pressure
and Learned Gentleman had a right, if he chose, to entertain of the question may be lessened.—( Hear.) The Right Hon.
that opinion, and he had the support of those who elsewhere Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) and the Noble Lord (Stanley)
entertained the same opinion against the Established Church. have contended that we ought to place the Church in a state
But what the Right Hon. Baronet had no right to say was, of complete security. I think we should be holding out false
that they (the Ministry) entertained the same opinion, expectations, if we said that that would be the result of the
Sir J. GRAHAM denied that he had made the assertion. measure we shall hereafter have to propose upon the subject._ Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad to learn that the Right (Hear.) But whatever may be the result with regard to that
Hon. Baronet bad not said so, because he had thought that measure, Ido not consider that either it, or the measure with
the whole tendency of his argument went to show how danger- regard to the Poor-laws, is at all mixed up or involved with
ous it was to make concessions to those whose friends and sup- this question of the reform of Municipal Corporations--
porters were unfavourable to the Established Church. If the (Hear, hear,) I tell you, that I consider this question of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, however, did not maintain that establishment of reformed Municipal Corporations in Ireland
opinion, then he (Lord John Russell) held the opinion that to be a just and wise measure—a measure likely to con-
the maintenance of any such opinions on the part of others ciliate the affections of the people of Ireland towards the
did not commit them. With reference to the question of general Government of this country, and by so much dimi_
the Catholic claims, and to the passing of the Catholic nishing the danger to any of the institutions of the land. I
Emancipation Bill, he did not think that there was any say further, that it is a measure which is good in itself.—
ground to say that the result had been difftrent from that ( Hear.) I say it is a measure which the present Ministry
which had been anticipated. They were told at the time by have brought forward from a strong conviction of its justice.
the Duke of Wellington, that it was a measure which would —(Cheers.) That conviction is increased from the manner
be likely to prevent civil war in Ireland. They knew it was in which it has been received in this House.—( Hear, hear.)
a measure which had introduced Roman Catholics into Par- The proposition for the abolition of Corporations in Ireland
!lament, when they were enabled to urge their claims and has been negatived by so large a majority of the House of
pretensions; and whatever disturbances there might have Commons that I hardly expect it to be brought forward again.
been, he was convinced that more peace had been secured by —( Hear, hear.) On the other hand, I look forward with
bringing in Roman Catholic Members than could have been confidence to the triumphant issue of the question, sure that
secured now, in 1837, had that Act not passed, and the re- if you grant it now fully and generously, you will meet with
strictions on Roman Catholics had been continued. But now, that support and gratitude which a measure so given, and in
after having addressed himself to the speech of the Right Hon. such a spirit, has a right to command.—(Cheers.) But if
Gentleman, he would proceed to state some few observations you delay to give it now, upon the pretence that the people
with regard to this measure, and the objections made to it. He of Ireland are not fit to be trusted, because they have a Church
must state first, that he considered the measure was in strict which is not agreeable to them, I feel the same confidence
conformity with the Act of Roman Catholic Emancipation. that the measure will still be carried—l feel the same comfi-
To refuse the admission of Roman Catholics into Municipal deuce that the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite will vote for
Corporations in. Ireland, under the apprehension and plea it; but Ido not feel the same confidence that it would produce
that they would exercise a dangerous supremacy, was to the same good feelings and the same good effects in Ire-
contract the letter and spirit of the Act. Talk of Roman land.—( Loud and long-continued cheering.)
Catholics not keeping faith I What faith were the oppo- Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the surprise which he last
items of this Bill keeping in excluding Roman Catholics from night felt that the House was not permitted, considering the
Corporations arid municipal power ? In 1829 they said they exhausted state of the debate, to go to a division had not been
were admitted to corporate offices, and yet, when the question in the least degree removed by the tenour of the discussion of
came for their admission accordingly, it was urged that they that night ; and he hoped that those two or three Gentle-
could not be admitted ! Then his Noble Friend, and his Right men whose absence the House last night deplored—( Laughter
Hon. Friend, said, why not impose the declaration which was and cheers)—and in compliment to whom (the debate being
imposed by the Act for repealing the Corporation and Test entirely finished) the division was postponed, were now present
Acts? The words contained in the declaration could only be in the House, and would enable them finally to dispose of the
regarded ar intended to Milled security to the Protestant Dis. question..--( Hear, hear.) Ile felt, however, that it was not
senters of Ireland, because the Roman Catholics were bound entirely owing to the absence of two or three Gentlemen that
to take the oath prescribed in the 9th Geo. IV. the reluctance to divide was last night manifested. He bad
Lord STANLEY here rose to explain what he had in- entertained his suspicions upon the subject before lie heard
tended to state; but we did not collect the purpcjt of his ob- the speech of the Noble Lord who had just sat down ;_ and
servationss
these suspicions were fully confirmed when in the course of
Lord-JOHN RUSSELL resumed. lie thought it would his observations he found the Noble Lord so pointedly re-
have been much better that his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) ferring to the approaching disunion between himself and the
should have stated his opinion upon points of detail when the Honourable Member for Middlesex upon the subject of
Bill was in Committee.—( Hear, hear.) Without going into Household Suffrage.—(Loud laughter and cheers.) When
the various arguments advanced, in the present as well as in he found, on referring to the votes, that the first notice of
former debates, upon the subject of Municipal Reform in Ire- motion for the 11th of April was given by the Honourable
land, he would shortly endeavour to show the position in which Member for Middlesex for leave to bring in a Bill to extend
they then stood. They maintained, in the first place, that the present suffrage to Household Suffrage, he knew perfectly
Corporations were good in themselves; that they were useful well that one of the motives for adjourning the debate was to
in exciting the spirit of the people, and in producing good local prevent that motion from being brought forward.---( Hear,
government—( Hear, hear)—and that they were likewise hear.) The only novelty he bad' heard in the course of the
useful in promoting order, and awakening a general spirit of debate of that evening was from the Hon. Member for Wol-
freedom in the community._( Hear, hear.) That position, verhampton (Mr. Villiers). The lion. Member for \Vol-
after some very ineffectual attempts to defeat it on the part of verhampton, thinking that the party on that (the opposition)
the opponents to the measure, he apprehended was now fully side of the [louse availed themselves unfairly of the cry of
established.—( Hear, hear.) He thought they had also este- the " Church in danger," determined, it would seem, to meet
blished the position with regard to the cities of Ireland, that that cry by a counter-cry, namely, the " Reform Bill in danger."
there was no reason why Cork and Waterford should not have —( Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. Geutlennan said he had
Municipal Corporations, as well as this English cities of Bath never heard a discussion conducted on the Opposition side
and Bristol.—(Hear.) Further than that, he thought that of the House in which there did not fall from some one Gen-
they had also established the position, that while Eng- tleman or other an intimation that one at least of the three
land and Scotland were allowed to have reformed Muni- great popular questions ought either to be altered or repealed.
e,ipal Corporations it would be unjust as well as insult- The first of those was the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. Now
ing to deny them to Ireland. With respect to the threatened he (Sir R. Peel) had never heard any Gentleman intimate an
danger to the Church he thought that those who put the intention of bringing in a Bill to repeal that measure.—( Hear,
Church forward in the argument were, in fact, the parties who hear.) lie certainly did hear in time speech of the Hon.
created the very danger they apprehended.—(Cheers.) Un- Member for Meath (Mr. H. Grattan) last light, an ex-
iloubtedly it might be said, with some appearance of truth, tract f: ern' some Dublin newspaper, which the Hon. Mem-
that by denying the power proposed to be conferred by this her said placed him in possession of his (Sir R. Peel's)
Bill, we should be keeping away one weapon by which the _opinions upon the subject ; and accordingly, upon the autho-
Church might be attacked. But if that argument were rity of this Dublin newspaper, the Hon. Member de-
pushed to its true extent, it would not be confined dared to the House that it was his (Sir R. Peel's) intention
to the rejection of this Bill of Municipal Reform—(Hear, to propose the repeal of the Catholic Relief Bill.—(Laughter.)
hear)--but would go to the full length of re- Now, as the lion. Member for Meath was a Member of the
ducing the Catholic people of Ireland again into that de- [louse of Commons, and consequently had opportunities of
pressed condition from which, for the last half century, we hearing the debates within its walls, lie (Sir R. Peel) trusted
have been gradually emancipating them.—(Cheers.) If that the Hon. Member would take the indication of his intentions
could be done—if the whole Irish people, under the operation from his own declarations, and not from any anonymous pare-
of unequal laws, could be kept in a state of complete subjec- graphs which might happen to appear, even in a Dublin
tion—the privileged minority might perhaps be regarded as newspaper.—(Laughter and cheers.) The Hon. Member for
safe ; but when the fetter was removed from the Roman Ca- Meath, in the course of his speech last night, after attacking
tholics—when they were allowed to acquire land, to hold of- him (Sir R. Peel) with a great deal of vituperated eloquence,
five, to sit in Parliament, there could not be more danger in produced extracts:from speeches he (Sir R. Peel) had for-
the feeling of their strength and numbers as compared with merly delivered as arguments against him. It was rather an
that of the members of the Established Church in Ireland.— unfair instrument to use ; but he ( Sir R. Peel) would not
( Hear, hear.) Such being, the danger to be apprehended, retaliate. The Hon. Member for Meath might rest assured
and impossible, perhaps, to prevent, it was still said by some that whilst he lived he (Sir R. Peel) would never quote an ex-
of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that if certain things could tract from any speech of his.—( Great laughter and cheering.)
be done, they would not altogether hesitate about the con- " But," said the lion. and Learned Member for Wolverhanap-
cession of a reform in the municipal corporations. The ton, " there is not only a disposition on the part of the Oppo-
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) the Member for the sition to repeal the Roman Catholic Relief Bill ; there
University of Cambridge, hi the course of his speech of is also an indication of a wish and an intention to
the last evening, stated that " he could conceive it pos- repeal the English Municipal Bill and the Parliamentary
sible to place the Established Church in a position in which Reform Bill."—( Hear, hear, hear.) At all events, he (Sir
its revenues should be secured against the attacks made up- Robert Peel) had no intention to propose the repeal of
on it by opposing sects—he could conceive a measure the Municipal Bill, because, if the Municipal Corporations
which would place it in such a position of security and continued in the same change of opinions that had distin-
strength as to render its stability compatible with the existence guished them for the last year or two, they would shortly be-
of Municipal Corporations, vested with all the forms of self- come good Conservative bodies.—(Laughter and cheers.)
government that could be desired in bodies of that descrip- Then with respect to the Parliamentary Reform Bill, who ou
ions" That, undoubtedly, was sufficiently vague and indefi- that side of the House had proposed its repeal ?—( Hear.)
nite ; but what said the Noble Lord the Member for North Who had proposed even to modify it ?--( Hear.) He had not
Lancashire (Lord Stanley) who, if sometimes peremptory heard one single attack made either upon the principle or the
with the House and harsh to his own friends, had usually the details of the Parliamentary Reform Bill, except from the
merit of being exceedingly clear and precise in his language lion. Gentlemen who sat on the Ministerial side of the House.
—( Hear)—what was the prospect that the Noble Lord held —(Cheers.) He would now address himself to the speech of
out in his speech of last evening ? The Noble Lord said he the Noble Lord (J. Russell). In doing so he would avoid all
was not prepared to say " that if he saw the Church placed in reference to the vestal criticism in ivhich the Noble Lord had
a situation of security as to its revenues—if he had not heard indulged. He would not dwell upon the phrase " the down-
the dangerous doctrines of the gentlemen who composed his ward path" upon which the Noble Lord had laid so much
Majesty's Government, anti of the supporters of that Govern- emphasis.—(Hear and laughter.) Yet what was to be im-
ment—his objections, which were now insuperable, might not plied from the phrase as originally employed by his Right
in a great measure be modified. But even then he could not Hon. Friend ( Sir J. Graham)? He ( Sir R. Peel) would
pledge himself to the present Bill, as it would still be open venture to say that if, instead of the "facilis descensus," his
to objections. But he diet say that the question would be Right Hon. Friend had spoken of the laborious and difficult
placed on an entirely new footing, if they were able to upward path, he would have been attacked by the Noble
deal with it in such a manner that his objections to it— Lord, the great critic of the Administration, for not speak •
as a Protestant—might be removed. With these views hog of the road of concession as an easy and pleasing descent,
—and these' views only—he would willingly yield to the instead of a stubborn and unpleasing upward journey.__
introduction into Ireland of institutions, which were (Cheers and laughter.) Then came the disclosure about the
not necessarily nor precisely similar, but which should be ana- Cabinet dinner. What a disclosure for the Noble Lord (J.
logous to those of England, arid which, in his deliberate judg- Russell) to make ! Why, with his attachment to the popular
meta, should be for the advantage of the people of Ireland." principle—with his love fur Municipal Corporations in Scot-
This, too, he thought was sufficiently vague and indefinite.— 1 ind, as well as in England and Ireland—why was not the
( Hear, hear.) Such was the language held by his Noble Noble Lord, in the case cf the Scotch Municipal Bill, found
Friend and by time Right Hon. Gentleman time Member for the watching over the cradle of freedom, instead of acting the
University of Cambridge; and it was, in fact, a very good part of Amphitryon, and leaving his charge to take care of
sample of the inconclusive nature of the arguments and state- itself ?—( Laughter and cheers.) So indifferent was the Noble
ments advanced by the great mass of those who opposed the Lord to that unfortunate measure, that he positively left it to
measure.—( Hear, hear.) - The meaning of this language, as its fate, and went to dinner.—( Renewed laughter.) But in
far as he could collect any meaning from it at all, was this— absence and in his indifference, the Noble Lord unjustly and
"If lie saw the. Church in Ireland perfectly secure he would ungenerously sought to involve his Right Hon. Friend (Sir
then agree to a Bill unon the subject-of Municipal Reform, but J. Graham). It was the Noble Lord himself, and not the
not to this Bill."—( Hear.) Could anything be more vague Right Hon. Baronet, who was absent from the discussion and
or unsatisfactory? • What was meant in the first sentence by division on the Scotch Municipal Bill.—( Laughter and cheers.)
making the Church in Ireland perfectly secure? What was When the five pound clause was assented to in the Irish Bill,
the danger to the Established Church that the Right Hon. the Noble Lord said, " Oh, there is a five pound clause in the
Gentleman had that night pointed out to them? It was this : Scotch Bill, and therefore, of course there must be a 51.
that the General Association in Ireland had three months ago clause in the Irish Bill." Now he ( Sir R. Peel) had certainty
entered into certain resolutions of a hostile character to- heard of a postliminions precedent; and it appeared in him
wards
the Established Church.—( Laughter.) Why, whatever that the precedent referred to by the Noble Lord on thts occa-
Bill were introduced upon the subject, what power had the sion must
embrace something of the character inip.:ted uneer
Government of the day to prevent meetings at Dublin at that teano___( Laughter.) Fintl,ing that a Si. cseuse in the
which similar resolutions might not be agreed to, and upon Scotch Bill would be a suffleicmt authority for the insertion of
which gentlemen so timid as those opposite might not found a similar clause in the Irish,
•,thmieipal Bill, the Noble Lord
an argument that the Church was not perfectly secure ? immediately set to work tr., create a precedent, and subsequently
( Hear, hear.) Yet, according to the statement of his Noble to the introduction of
t'he Irish Bill moved for leave to bring
Friend (Lord Stanley), until the Church in Ireland was per- in a Bill to abolialt,
fectly secure, until there were no resolutions, no opinions ex- 'Chat Bill had ',4D+ et passed through one single stage ; but pressed against it, it would be totally impossible for him to the Noble 140- .
d wasyelad to look at in his moment of difficulty,
agree to a measure of Municipal Reform.—( Laughter and and airearie
it.wA quoted as a precedent, and used as an areu-
'a 51. constituency in Se:niand.—(Hear.)
) One word upon the other part of the question. The merit by
efigne.r3G.
Gentlemen opposite said it was quite impossible for them kingthe
ii:'___ He (Sir R. Peel) telt that the argu-
to consent either to the present Bill or to any other that should merit '
-..
the subject of the Bill then under their considera-
proceed upon the same principle. Now, what did they mean tio'
Upon
entirely exhausted. lie must, however, be allowed
j ilo2(CiwielnaorsontendA for an identity of the law in both
by that ? Ills conception of a Corporation was this : a place a '
1 wasl I t state the rounds upon which he rested Ills op-
-1 .ery s loft 0
lie
where the people elected their own Government for ti- -
own local purposes. If it were said that the majority of
than I a clime of local government for Ireland. Upon its ab.
place should elect the local Government, then there_ would 1 as
s ' viewing it as it then stood, be objected to it
what be considered to be Municipal Reform •a then 0 oe stractiimlerits,
retainedto
'ilion he had formerly expressed, that
'LI' 1 position to it. viewedg the Bill upon its abstract merits
He st . ,
would be rested in the inhabitants of the town that poet tr'
4
self-government which was deemed desirable ; but
experience of tim working of the ye-
, on without any previous
_.
the other hand, it was said that the Majorit
Y 4 .mould formed municipal system, an in ,
~ d forte out of the forty-seven
not have the ite of to establish at onLepifort
le power of electing the Local Gore ' -seven corporations in Ireland,
if it were said that the power of electing that G
• I Corporations were ceded on all hands) carrying the
ov . .
AI/ nment Munieipa
should be vested in the hands of a small minor.
itr versant and unwise extent.—( Hear, hear.)
was., (even if the policy of the
maintained that the measure, though possibi• unaccompanieda by the payment of assessed
called a reform, would not be a real reforre, tult In
I,:iy, tt;T:emn „hte,
franchise,tocrsinecsitplai.beliseoh altelss. franchise,
ight be The
their argument, he could only auppose that any
.1
ineffectual reform.—(Hear, hear.)
d in Scotland, or to the poor-rate as it existed in 1-,:nas-
definite explanation, and judging from time gene-ilea of any
- land,eN3
would be a very indiff2fent, and in iris opinion insufficient,
iri th 4
abse. a ialse and taxes,tcs _o r y paymeet coraesponding to assessed taxes, such as
tenor of
test of the competency of the constituency.—( Hear, hear.)
municipal reform likely to receive the axprobat.- Was there not at that moment a committee of time House sit-
of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite viacrl . -I'n ni eel support .
of
.._.., ~ Had not
to oe of th ai4 ting on the report fictitious eutes in scottanu r
scription.—. - tter des
which (Ha er hear.) He roust now expre,4 •. is the evils which were said to have arisen in that country upon
to he could not refer without sorrow, bee• art opinio 1
the subject of the franchise been entirely the result of the
113asure of
dose i. t was a:
~
opinion that the difileultiofi they had then to sill greater than those with which they had ' i .they 1 ...1 1- d , .e. • ,c 1 f the workilea
Vith the experience la, a rtei y most%•t u
former dayc!neour ;ter were
ned to 0 3ntend in \
, . it could be
s. His opinion was, that if a tfill •- . , sinik rto that eoriety of p.rine.ieles laid down as to the value of property
of last
of time meoele of
year were now to be sent up to the House,, thought that the civil or moral improvement l. , ,
if Lords,
amid to be passed by their feordshipe inn exactly of the system in Scotland, he did not know dow
as presented to thein it w(Aki 4.. ~.. _, ~ the s: Arne shape .. .
' e- • '/. franchise.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
01, lisi)..g the efrec c I producing Ineyal purposes 4.1 ~.;
Irelaed would be promoted by extending to them for ad Au-

It was said, give to Ireland corporations on the sa
principle as those. of England. —( Hear.) The English poli
were . appointed by the Lord lieutenant in each county ;
in Ireland it was proposed to place the whole of that poi
in. the hands of those local and irresponale bodies. U 1
that ground, as well as upon others. on which ire veould
then dwell, he objected to the Bill as a scli.ene of is
gove:nment.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord might edl h
that these were details, and that they ought to leive be
discussed in Committee. He (Sir R. Pee!) knew that :A
were details, and he would state why it was that they w.
not discussed in Committee. It was perfectly notorious t!
whatever objections they (the Opposition) bad brought fr.
ward, would at once have been ever-ruled. In the next phi,
they felt that, with the, certainty of being over-ruled. th
objections, if brought forward, would only have the effect
obstructing the prospect of a satisfactory adjustment hereaft,
In the course of the speech made last ntttht by an Home,
able Member on the diploMatic service of • his Maj,!sty-1
meant the Honourable Member- for Mary-la-bonne—the He:
Gentleman made an appeal to him ;. and if lie passed by tl
appeal the Ilttr.durnble Gentleman might suppose that lie a
not attempt to reply to it .because he could .not make at.
comment on it. The observations of the Honourable Memle
ran to this effect :—" There is one way in which, accordin
to his friends, the Right Honourable Baronet might escap
from this dilemma. They said, " You dont know Sir Robe
Peel—he sees that the Irish Corporation Bill ma=t pass, an
when he comes into °Mee, then he will pass something in th
shape of a better Bill if he can, and atter that he will sac,
Now the Church is, you see, in a better condition ; now lii
consent to passing the Corporation Bill.'" Ile should liket
ask the Hon. Gentleman who were those friends of his whom
the lion. Gentleman heard make these assertions ? He should
like to know what there possibly was in his past conduct that
could entitle friends of his to give him credit for such a course
of proceeding ?—( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman supposed,
or at least his (Sir R. Peel's) friends who communicated with
the Hon. Gentleman—(A laugh)—that he meditated in 4 t
to pass this Bill. He did not hesitate to say that if he contem-
plated this Bill as he heel stated, and if persevering in his hosti-
lity to the passing of it on that occasion, and yet as the confi-
dentiar adviser of the crown he intended to sanction it, be did
not hesitate to say that it would be a much more credit-
able part, seeing such a probability of expressing his conviction
of the necessity of the measure, to give his Majesty's Govern-
ment
his support, instead of opposing the further progress of
the Bill.—( Cheers. ) He trusted, after this remark, lie should.
convince the lion. Gentleman that he did not intend to pass
this Bill, should he, by possibility, accede to office.—( Hear.)
The lion. Gentleman might say, " No; you do not contem-
plate passing this Bill in its present shape, but you may sanc-
tion a Bill analogous do this, with some slight alterations." If
the Hon. Gentleman asked him whether lie thought that, in the
present position of public affairs and of parties, one party in
that House was not necessarily pledged on the one hand to the
unqualified support, and on the other to oppose, the resolution
which turned him out of office, he (Sir R. Peel) would ask the
lion. Gentleman, in reply, when that resolution had passed,
whether he showed any wish to make concession with respect
to the principle of the resolution—whether he showed any hesi-
tation to resign the office he held?—( Hear.) No ; he left office
because he could not sanction that resolution, which involved

. _
.e security of the Church of Ireland. If Hon. Gentlemen asked
irn under what possible circumstances he would consent to
any relaxation of his opposition to the establishment of Irish
Municipal Corporations, as proposed in this Bill, he would re-
ply that he thought that Hon. Gentlemen had no right to ask
him hypothetical questions or expect an answer to them. But,
even if he thought any possible settlement of the question
practicable, he did not then think that it would be advantage-
ous to state what he might conceive it to be. But he would
say, that it was the duty of the King's Government, before
they asked that House to come to a final decision on this
question, to tell them what they intended to do with respect to
the Irish Church.—( Cheers.) To say that that question was
unconnected with the one before the House was perfectly in-
sulting—(Cheers)—and this was certainly not the feeling of
his Majesty's Government at the commencement of the Ses-
sion. When the Noble Lord said that he would enter into
an examination of the state of Ireland, he (Sir R. Peel)
thought that he would have gone into an explanation of the
principles on which the Government intended to act with
respect to all their great measures regarding Ireland.
But the Noble Lord merely indirectly alluded to the Tithe
question, and stated that the nature of the payment to be
made under the Poor-law Bill should be explained on a future
occasion. Now he would ask the Noble Lord, who had
taunted him with dealing in vague generalities, what he
meant?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now did not the Noble Lord,
in effect, promise the early production of these measures ?
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord must surely be supposed to
have had these measures prepared and in his possessioa—
( Cheers.) If the Noble Lord had not these measures pre-
pared, what did be mean by inducing the King of England, as
his adviser, to recommend to Parliament to take, not into
their late consideration, not to postpone the subjects tee some
distant period, but to take into their early consideration the
present state of the corporations, as well as the tithe ques-
tion, and the difficult question of a provision for the destitute
Irish poor.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Would any Hon. Gentle-
man suppose for one moment, after such declarations, that the
Noble Lord and his colleagues had not got measures prepared
on those subjects, that they had not made up their minds
on these questions when they alluded to them in this way.
—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord now said that he was ready
to pass a measure for the settlement of the tithe question,
if he could be satisfied that it would meet with the ready
assent of the House of Commons, the House of Lords, and
the people of Ireland ; but he went on to say that there were
great impediments in the way of framing such a measure.—
(Cheers. ) He would promise the Noble Lord that if he
brought forward these two measures for the settlement of the
Irish Church question, and for the establishment of Poor-
laws in Ireland—if he knew what were the intentions of the
Government on those questions—if he knew what was the
particular course which the House of Commons would pur-
sue with respect to those two measures—be would' not have
pursued such a line as to have rendered himself' liable to the
taunt of the Noble Lord, and those with whom he acted,
that he dealt in vague generalities with respect to the Muni-
cipal Bill ; for he would have distinctly told the Noble Lord
whether he was prepared to make any concessions on this ques-
tion, and what would be the nature of such concessions. It
would have been open to him to have pursued this course if he
had teen made acquainted with those measures; but now being
in ignorance of the nature of those measures, he felt it to be
his duty to persist in offering his opposition to the Bill.
before the House.—( (fear, hear.) Knowing nothing, therefore;
of the intentions of the Government with respect to the tithe
question and the poor-laws, he felt it to be his duty to oppose
this measure ; and the Noble Lord might be satisfied that the
rule which he adopted in opposition, would be the rule that
he would adopt if he should be called upon to accept office.—
( Hear, hear.) If, on the other hand, on seeing these two•
measures with respect to the Irish Church and the establish-
ment of poor-laws in Ireland, he was prepared to modify in
any degree his opposition to the Municipal Corporation Bill
—this Bill, with respect to which the Noble Lord appeared
to entertain Lis chief anxiety—he should take an opportu-
nity to declare distinctly what those modifications were ;
and to those modifications he should adhere, if they were ac-
cepted by the Government • or, if they were not accepted by
the Government, and if the Government chose to abandon
their positions, to those modifications he would adhere, if by-
accident he should be placed in their situation.—(Hear„
hear.) This he thought would be the course which alone.
it would be creditable to a public man to pursue.--( Hear,
hear.) If he felt it to be his duty to meet this Inca-
sure with unqualified opposition, such should be his rule.
of conduct if he.were connected with the Government; if
he thought that concessions should be made in case he took.
office they should be distinctly stated, and the Government
should also state whether they would accept them or not.—
(Hear, hear.) These two questions were most nearly united.
with that before the House. Would any one deny, after the
declarations that had been made, that the chances of a settle-.
tient of the Church question, with security to the Estab-
lishment, would not be greatly diminished by passing this
Bill for establishing Irish Municipal Corporations ?—( Hear,.
hear.) He might be told that when they passed the Catholic
Relief Bill there was the same assertion of danger to the
Establishment. He denied it; for when they passed the Bil't
to remove the disqualifications and restrictions from the Ca-
tholics, they had not only the most distinct and often-repeated.
declarations that their removal would restore tranquillity and
peace to Ireland, hut that it would also ensure the stability
of the Established Church.—(Hear, hear.) With a solemn
engagement that the maintenance of the Church was compa-
tible with the removal of the disqualifications on the Catho-
lics, it was then entered into.—( Cheers.) These disqualifi-
cations were removed ; and would any one tell him that since
that Time the Church was not in danger ?—( Hear. ) In many'
parts of Ireland it was notorious that combinations had been:
entered into for the purpose of defrauding of their legal prc,—
perty those who had au interest in Church estates. _
(Cheers.) At the-present moment, also, they had a res elu-
tion of that House before them that no settlement of the tithe
question could take place satisfactosily traless it was e.ccom-
periled with an alienation of Church prorierty.—( Hear, bear.)
As he had said before, the state of the question with respect
to this Bill was essentially different from the Catholic Relief
Bill. What were the objects of the supporting of this Bill?
It had been asserted, in a pos,eilar assembly, that the main-
tenance of these institutions should be insisted on in the first
place, because by means of these institutions a control could
exercised oeer the people, and, secondly, that their in-
fluence would he exercised in a way to weaken the power of
the Chorea.—( Hear, hear.) If they asked him what was his:,
principle for the government of Ireland, he would reply, it
was the maintenance of the principle of the Relief gill,
the freedom of religion to all classes of his Majeety's
subjects.—(Loud cheers.) But with this condition there. was
co-existing, another, namely, that with the establishment of
perfect civil equality there should also be a legal and 'bindina
security for the maintenance of the establishment of the
Protestant Church in Ireland as the established religion of

the countrv.—(Cheers.) If ever there was a combination of
justice and wisdom from a solemn compact—both from ex
--
pressed and implied engagement—from considerations of:
equity and sound policy—if ever there was such a combinatiora
it took place in the case of the Protestant Church in Ireland..
(Hear, hear.) Relying on the principle of the Catholic Re—
lief Bill—relying on file declarations made on its passing, as-,
we.l as on those directed to be taken under its enactments—.
relying on the principles of justice and sound policy, they•
required, and they would continue to require, legislative'
protection for the Church of Ireland, before they consented!
to give privileges which were not required by the Catholic:
Relief Bill, and which would only be employed for the"
subversion of the Established Church.—( Loud cheering.),
lie said this arrangement was not on unfair terms : be
believed that to these terms the country would subse fibcp
and he believed the country would adhere.—(hear, I ,ear.)
These were terms with which he also believed, the Nobk Lore

himself, in the present state of political parties and discussions,
would be satisfied, and on which he would be prepared to rest.
The Noble Lord knew also, that by the resolution which he
bad proposed, and which had been opposed by him (Sir Ro-
bert Feel) as involving an abstract principle, without a prac-
tical result, the House had been fettered—he meant the reso-
lution respecting the appropriation of Church property in Ire-
land. The Noble Lord said that he did not wish to bring for-
ward Bills and place them on the table which there was not a
reasonable hope and prospect of passing through Parliament,
and giving satisfaction to the people of Ireland. He thought
that the Noble Lord was right in this; because bringing
forward Bills which it was not possible to carry through to
a successful termination was a practice which, to say the
least of it, was not prudent. The Noble Lord also, in manly
language, declared that whenever such measures were
brought forward, coming from what quarter they might, and
believing that they would have such a result, no feeling of
false pride should prevent his giving his cordial support to
them. When he heard from the Noble Lord such language he
-would not taunt him as a Minister for having made such a de-
claration. He thought that the Noble Lord meant that he was
ready, at the expense of every sacrifice—that he was ready to
propose to Parliament the settlement of the Tithe question,
independently of the resolution by which he said the question
was embarrassed. If such was the intention of the Noble
Lord, although that resolution had proved fatal to his Govern-
ment—if such was the intention of the Noble Lord, not one of
taunt should fall from him on the subject ; but he would at once
proceed to the consideration of the Tithe question with a view
to the settlement of it.—( Hear, hear.) He saw no other way
by which this question could be satisfactorily settled. It was
the evil of that resolution neither being in favour nor aban-
doned, that it engendered bitterness in Ireland.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord and his colleagues knew that it was
impossible to leave the question in its present state. The
Government and the Legislature must do something. —( Hear).
Ile knew not what was the nature of the vague intimation on
the part of his Majesty's Government of their intention of re-
linquishing office ; be knew nothing about it, he viewed it with
great indifference, and he was not at all surprised at their de-
sire to relinquish office.—(Cheers from the Opposition, an-
swered by cheers from the Ministerial benches.) The Right
Hon. Baronet proceeded to say : I do not taunt them with the
desire to retain office. I believe in the present position of
public affairs few men would take office unless impelled by a
sense of public duty.—( Cheers and laughter.) Oh, look at
the position of public affairs. Look at the position of your
foreign affairs..—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) I am
glad to see a smile on the Noble Lord's face. Oh, the Noble
Lord has a right to smile with respect to the position in
-which this country stands to Russia and the great Powers
of the North, to Spain, to France, and, indeed, with re-
spect to all other Powers.—( Cheers, and cries of " Ques-
tion, question.") This is the question—this is the real
and pinching part of the question.—(Loud cheers.) Look
at the state of commercial embarrasment in which the country
is placed. Look at the state of the want of employment in
which many of your manufacturers now are.—( Hear, hear.)
Look at the state of the Governments of the three great
Powers of the west of Europe at the present moment. In
France there is no Government, in Spain no Government,
and in England the question arises from day to day .whether
Caere is a Government or not.—( Cheers and laughter.) Look
also at the state of public business before this House.—( Hear,
hear.) Hundreds of questions of great public importance
are glanced at, but not proceeded with. From day to day a
great variety of observations are made, but nothing is done
a °wards advancing them to maturity.—(Hear, hear.) What
has hitherto been done, in the course of the present session?
—( Hear, hear.) Have any measures of importance been
sent up to the House of Lords? Certainly many measures
of great importance have been brought forward by the Go-
vernment, but no question, except the measure now under con-
sideration, has been advanced to any thing like a result. The
Irish Poor-law Bill and the Church-rate measure have been
introduced, but if you go through the whole of the Parlia-
mentary history, I do not believe that you will find a period
when the public business was ever in such a state.—( Hear,
hear.) Again, look at the state of your Colonial policy.—
( Hear, hear.) I say this in reference to those who believe
that there are parties who seek by low intrigue to endeavour
t overturn the Government, and then intend to bring to
maturity the measures they have introduced.—( Hear, hear,
from the Ministerial benches.) If you look steadily at the
as ite of public affairs, I think that Honourable Gentlemen
wi't agree that no man. but from a sense of public duty,
won'd take office upon himself.—( Loud cheers.) If his
`lajesty's Government wish to seek a pretext for aban-
d,aing office, and escape from the diffi:ulties with which they
surrounded—(Cheers)—l do not hesitate to say that I
heliteve there is energy enough in the country to find compen-
satioc for their loss.—(Renewed Cheers.) If the crew
choose to abandon the vessel, I do not believe but that the
ceunsey would lend its support to those who would make an
effort to protect it for the country's interests, aid save it from
dangers which appear to threaten to overwhelm it.—(Loud
cheering- )
The nurebers were—
For the third reading
Against it
Majority
The announcement of the numbers was received with loud
cheers from both sides of the house.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
Clouse adjourned at a Quarter to One.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)
BILL.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
TUESDAY, APRIL 11.

." That the Bill be now

Motion made, and Question proposed,—
read a third time :"—The House divided:—
MAJORITY—AYES, 302.
Acheson, Lord-Co. or Armagh Hindley, Charles-Ashton
Adam, Sir C.-Clackmannanshire Hodges, T. L.-West Kent
Aglionby, H. A.-Cockermouth Hodges, T. T.-. Rochester
Ainsworth, P.-Bolton Holland, Edward-Worcestershire
Alston, Rowland-Hertfordshire Horsman, Edward-Cockermouth
Andover, Vise.- Malmesbury Hoskins, K.-Herefordshire
Anson, Sir G.-Lichfield Howard, R.-Wicklow Co.
Anson, Colonel-Stoke-upon-Trent Howard, P. H.-Carlisle
kstley. Sir Jacob-West Norfolk Flowick, Visc.-Northumberland
Attwood, 'Fhos--Birmingham Hume, Joseph-Middlesex
Bagshaw, John-Sudbury Humphery, John-Southwark
Bainbridge, E. T.-Taunton Hurst, R. H.-Horsham
Baines, Edward-Leeds Hutt, W.-Kingston-upon-Hull
Ball, Nicholas-Clonmell James, William-Cumbcrland
Bannerman, A.-Aberdeen Jervis, J.-Chester
Barclay, David-Sunderland Johnstone, Sir J. V.-Scarborough
Baring, F. Thornhill-Portsmouth Johnston, Andrew-Cupar
Barnacd, E. G.-Greenwich King, E. 8.-Wanvi?k
Barron, H. W.-Waterford City Labouchere, Right Hon. Henry-
Barry, G. S.-Cork Co. Taunton
Beauclerk, Major-East Surrey Lambton, H.-North Durham;
Belfast, F.arl of-Antrim Co. Langton, Wm. Gore -Somerretshire
Bellew, R. M.-Louth Leader, John T.-Bridgwater
Bellew, Sir Patrick-Louth Lee, J. Lee-Wells
Benett, J.-South Wiltshire Lefesre, C. Shaw-North Hants
Bentinck, Lord W.-Glasgow Lemon, Sir Charles-West Cornwall
Berkeley, Hon. F,-Gloucester Lennard, T. 8.-Maldon
B,!rkeley, Hon. G.-Gloucestershire Lennox, Lord J. G.-West Sussex
Berkeley, Hon. C.-Cheltenham Lennox, Lord A -Chichester
neroal, Ralph-Rochester Leveson, Lord-Morpeth
Bewes, T.-Plymouth Loch, James-Kirkwall
Iliddulph, IL-Hereford Long, W.-North Wiltshire
:Bich, T.-Leominster Lushington, Dr.-Tower Haml.
_Blackburne, J.-Huddersfield Lushington, Charles-Ashburton
Blake, M. J.-Galway Lynch, A. H -Galway
:Blunt, Sir Charles-Lewes Macnamara, W.-Clare Co.
.Bowes, John-South Durham M.Taggart, John-Wigton
Brady, Denis Caulfield-Newry Maher, John-Wexford Co.
Pdridgeman, Hewitt-Ennis Mangles, J.-Guildford
Brocklehurst, J.-Macclesfield Marjoribanks, S.-Hythe
ilusdie, W. 8.-Salisbury Marshall, W.-Carlisle
Brotherton, J.-Salford Marsland, Henry-Stockport
Browne, R. D.-Mayo Martin, Thomas-Galway Co.
Buller, Charles-Liskeard Maule, Hon. Fox-Perthshire
Butler, E.-North Staffordshire Maxwell, John-Lanarkshire
Itulwer, H. L-Marylebone Methuen, P.-North Wilts
Billwer, E. L.-Lincoln Molesworth, Sir William-Cornwall
Butler, Hon. P.-Kilkenny Co Moreton, Hon. A.-Glouctershire
Buxton, T. F.-Weymouth Morpeth, Lord-Yorkshire es
Byng, George-Middlesex Morrison, J.-Ipswich
Byog, Right Hon. G S.-Poole Mosley, Sir 0.-North Staffordshire
Callaghan, D.-Cork City Mostyn, Hon. E.-Flintshire
Campbell, Sir John-Edinburgh Murray, Right Hon. J. A.-Leith
Campbell, W. F.-Argyleshire Nagle, Sir R.-Westmeath
Carter, J. 8.-Portsmouth O'Brien, Cornelius-Clare
Cave, Robert Otway-Tipperary O'Connell, Daniel-Kilkenny
C ivendish, Hon. C.-East Sussex O'Connell, John-Youghall
Cavendish, Hon. G. H.-Derbyshire O'Connell, M. J.-Kerry
Cayley, E. S.-N. Yorkshire O'Connell, Morgan-Meath
Chalmers, Patrick-Inverbervie O'Connor Don-Roscommon Co.
Chapman, M. L.-Westmeath O'Ferrall, Richard M.-Kildare
Chetwynd, Capt. W.-Stafford Ord, W.-Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Chichester, J.l'. 8.-Barnstaple Oswald, James-Glasgow
Clay, W.-Tower Hamlets Paget, Frederick-Beaumaris
Clayton, Sir William-Marlow Palmer, General-Bath
Clements, Vise.-Leitrim Co. Palmerston, Viscount-Tiverton
Codrington, Sir E.-Devonport Parker, John-Sheffield
Colborne, Ridley-Wells Parnell, Sir FL-Dundee
Collins, W.-Warwick Parrott, Jasper-Totness
Cowper, Hon. W. F.-Hertford Parry, Sir L. P. J.-Carnarvon
Crawford, W. S.-Dundalk Pattison, James-London
Crawford, W.-London Pease, Joseph-South Durham
Crawley, S.-Bedford Pechell, Captain-Brighton
Crompton, S.-Thirsk Philips, Mark-Manchester
Curteis, H. 8.-East Sussex Philips, G. R.-Kidderminster
Curteis, E. 8.-Rye Phillipps, C. M.-N. Leicestershire
Dalmeny, Lord-Stirling Pinney, W.-Lyme Regis
Denistoun, A.-Dunbartonshire Ponsonby, Hon. W.-Dorsetshire
,i fVEyncouit, Right Hon. Chas. T.- Ponsonby, Hon. John-Derbyshire
Lambeth Potter, R.-Wigan
ryL,wyn, L W.-Glamorganshire Poulter, J. C.-Shaftesbury
Dive tt, Edward-Exeter Power, James-Wexford Co.
Donki.o, Sir R. S.-Berwick Power, John-Dungarvon
nuncor. the, Thomas-Finsbury Poyntz, W. S.-Midhurst
Dundas, Hon. J. C.-York Pryme, George-Cambridge
Dundas, Ilon. T.-Richmond Pryse, Pryse-Cardigan
Dundee, J. _Deans -Devizes Ramsbottom, J.-Windsor
Dunlop, John-Ayrshire Rice, Right Hon. T. S.-Cambridge
.Ebrington, Viac.-North Devon Rippon, C.-Gateshead
Edwards, John-Montgomery Robarts, A. W.-Maidstone
Ellice, Right Hon. E.-Coventry Robinson, G. R.-Worcester
Elphinstone, Howard-Hastings Roche, William-Limerick
Etwall, Ralph-Andover Roche, David-Limerick
Euston, Earl-Thetford Roeb:ick, J. A.-Bath
Evans, GI -Dublin Rolfe, Sir R. M.-Penrhyn
Ewart, Wm.-Liverpool Rooper, J. 8.-Huntingdonshire
Fazakerley, J. N. Peterborough Rundle, John-Tavistock
- Fellowes, Hon. N.-North Devon Russell, Lord John-Stroud
Fergus, John-Dysart Russell, Lord-Tavistock
Fe,-guson, Sir R. C.-Nottingham Russell, Lord C.-Bedford: hire
Fergarson, Sir R-Londonderry Futhven, Ed.-Kildare
Fergu'son, R.-Haddingtonshire Sanford, E. A.-West Soinersetsk ire
Fergus'son,Right Hon. R. C.-Kirk- Scott, Sir E. D.-Lichfield
ciaibritaht Scott, J. W.-North Hampshire
yiehien, .s ohn-Oldham Scourfield, W. M.-Haverfordwest
Fitzgibbon, Hon. R.-Limerick Co. Scrope, Poulett-Stroud
Fitzroy, Lord C.-Bury St. Edm. Seale, Colonel-Dartmouth
Fitzsiino-, C.-Dublin Co. Seymour, Lord-Totness
Fleetwood, P. 11.-Preston Sharpe, General-Dumfries
F Ake', Sir William-Norfolk Sheil, R. L-Tipperary
,port, J.-Clitheroe Simeon, Sir R.-Isle of Wight
French, F.-Rosscornmon Smith, J. A.-Chichester
s;„ skell, D.-Wakefield Smith, Hon. R.-Wycombe
Gal al, Wm. D.-Linlithgow Smith, It. Vernon-Northampton
(;,,ra. al, Robert-Cricklade Smith, Benjamin-Sudbury
Gorin, ,H. D.-New Shoreham Speirs, Alexander-Richmond
Grattan Henry-Meath Stanley, W. 0 -Anglesea
sirattan,
.James-Wicklow Co. Steuart, Robert-Haddington
Grey, Sir t_eorge-Devanport Stewart, P. M.-Lancashire
Grote, GeoN-e-London Stran,,,ways, Hon. John -C.ilne
Guest, J. .1.-Yert,:yr Tydvil Strickland, Sir G -West Yorkshire
Hall, Benjamin Monmouth Stuart, Lord D. C.-Arundel
,-,allyburton, Hon. D. G.-Forfarsh. Stuart, Lord J.-Ayr
laaladley, Henry-iancolnshire Stuart, Villiers-Waterford Co.
Hai 'land, W. C.-Durham Surrey, Earl of-West Sussex
Hatt e D. W.-Southwark Talbot, C. R. M.-Glamorganshire
HAgtie„ Archibald-Paisley- Talbot, J. H.-New Ross
• litaa beth Talfourd, Mr. Ferjeant -Reading
rt, I. Wight Tancrcd, H. W.-Banbury
l-Jra . ' •
, „
- sir' fhompson, Col.-Kingston-on-Hull
illi , ,--list, IJ.: - -.a Thomson, Right Hon. C. P.-Man.
e t.- :-.Z 11.,airetsbrarld14„, Chester
sir t or. . t night Hon, $a A . Cam Thorieley, Thos.-Wolverhampton
''.. • , 4014111, - "7 I Tooke, W.-Truro
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