The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-07 00:00:00

case.—( Hear, bear, hear.) In no instance had there
been an indisposition on his part to consult the Judges.
Baron Pennefather was summoned before the Committee,
but not called, or he (Lord N.) would otherwise
have had the advantage of his testimony as to the commu-
nications which had passed between them. With respect
to the sth resolution, before he entered into the merits of
the case he must recal their Lordships' attention to the
circumstances with reference to time. It was brought
before Parliament in 1837 by a meeting held at the Man-
sion House, at which the Noble Earl opposite took a
prominent part, and distinguished himself by tearing up
the protest of his brother Peers.
Earl CHARL E VILL E inquired if the Noble Lord
meant to indict him.—( A laugh.)
The Marquis of NO RMA NB Y certainly did not mean
to indict the Noble Earl—it was entirely a matter of taste.
—( Laughter.) He alluded to that meeting as the foun-
dation of these proceedings. There were many other
charges brought against him, which Lord J. Russell at the
time expressed his readiness to meet. Theresolution alluded
to transactions in which lie was accused of irregularity it,
having substituted oral instructions for written memorials.
That was a subject which it behoved Noble Lords to have
brought forward as soon as possible whilst the matter was
fresh in his recollection, and he might have had the testi-
mony of those who were acquainted with the circum-
stances. With respect to the evidence adduced to show
that he went about abusing the prerogative of the Royal
mercy, it was confined to four or five gaols, selected be
scarcely knew why. Not only was it confined to a few
Counties, but in no instance had the local inspector
been called, on whose advice he principally acted.
It was not proper to examine parties ,as to private con-
versations, for instance, Colonel Shaw Kennedy, then a
confidential officer of the Government, had been
examined
as to private communications which had taken place be-
tween him and the Lord Lieutenant—(Lord Wharncliffe,
" Why, it was a note to you".) Yes, but the conversa-
tion had originally been confidential, and though it bad
been reduced to writing by Colonel Shaw Kennedy he
still considered it as thoroughly private and confidential
as if it had never been reduced to writing. That these
liberations had not been the result of mere accident he
utterly and distinctly denied. He might have been right
or wrong, but he had done it on design, and with a
purpose, which he deemed would be beneficial to the
people. This subject had been fully brought before
their Lordships in July 1837, when be was better
able to defend himself and his recollection fresher
than now. The Noble and Learned Lord now had then
spoken of the " judicious lenity" which he (the Marquis
of Normanby) had displayed. It was soon after that, that
the letter had been written to him, of which the Noble and
Learned Lord had spoken; and certainly when my Noble
Friend had written that letter, the last person he could
have imagined likely to object to it, was the Noble and
Learned Lord.—(Hear, hear.) Now, as to the selection
of witnesses, he thought the case had not been justly dealt
with. In one instance, it was actually stated that the go-
vernor of a gaol which he had visited was not in a state of
sanity at the time. Supposing for a moment anything so
inoredible had occurred, was it not rather singular that the
Committee had not called Mr. Brown, the local inspec
tor, whom he was in the habit of consulting, and who could
have given information. If their Lordships merely viewed
the case with English eyes, they would not do it justice.
The exercise of the prerogative of mercy should not be
considered in the two countries as if they were precisely
analogous—for on the contrary, there was much utterly at
variance in the habits and customs of the two countries,
and the offences which had been pardoned in Ireland were
much more likely to be repressed by clemency than in
England. In Ireland those offences were principally as-
saults, chance-medleys, faction-fights, and cases of that
kind, which were punished much more severely there than
in England, as being more frequent in Ireland. If there
was a disposition on the part of the people to attend to the
admonitions of the Government, when directed to enforce
the law, certainly to such offences clemency might properly
be extended. In England the most numerous class of of-
fenders were the thieves; and doubtless the hardened
thieves when liberated could not be depended on for their
future good conduct, their habits being generally confirmed
If the people showed a disposition to respect the authority
of the Government, it was a fair experiment to try whether
by lenient measures, peace and tranquillity could not be
promoted, and a kindly feeling produced between the
lower classes and the upper, by showing them that a just
and liberal superintendence was exercised over them, If
it was expedient to try such an experiment, it was desira-
ble that it should be so full as to have the greatest chance
of making a strong impression. It was not adopted with
a view to any idle pageantry—popularity he had sufficient
of without any such experiment indeed, any Lord Lieu.
tenant might, by displaying affability and affecting splen-
dour, acquire, if so minded, a degree of popularity ; it
was, however, with no such contemptible idea, but
from a desire to exert a beneficial influence on
the minds of the people. And what had men
the result ?—(Hear, hear.) Strongly impressed as he
was with the unfairness of bringing the subject forward at
the distance of two years, he was glad that this interval
had enabled him to point to the regular diminution of
commitments, and, above all, of the more aggravated
assaults, as the result of his proceedings.—(Hear, hear.)
And he would move this in arrest of judgment against the
alleged enormities of which be had not been accused, till
they had lost all the freshness of novelty.—(Hear, hear.)
He would now advert to the evidence with regard to the
improvement in the state of the country. Mr. Cahill
(who must be admitted to be a good authority on matters
of this kind, however much he had been ridiculed by the
Noble and Learned Lord) in regard to the county of
Tipperary, but stated that prior to 1836, the faction fights
disturbed the district from one end to the other—
that they were of the most desperate character,
—that they often led to a great sacrifice of human life ;
and he further stated that these riots bad been put an end
to by a superior administration of justice in res and to these
offences, and the success of an appeal from the Govern
'to discontinue them. It was also stated that the appoint
ing of sectional Crown prosecutors had produced a most
beneficial effect, for that previously there had been no
regular system of prosecution on the part of the Crown,
and consequently great neglect and deficiency. Mr.
Howley, the Assistant Barrister, gave an account of some per-
sons who had been convicted of faction fights, who had been pro-
mised by him some remission of their punishments, if during
the ensuing eight or nine months, less of such fights occurred,
—that in the following nine months, these feuds had been con-
siderably diminished, and that the prisoners were therefore dis-
charged. Their Lordships would observe that the people
of Ireland had long contracted a deep-rooted feeling that the
laws were made not to preserve peace but to oppress them.
And the only way of eradicating this feeling was to treat
them with mildness and clemency. As to the manner
in which he had exercised the prerogative of mercy, he might
be permitted to observe that he possessed many very satisfactory
testimonials from places into which their Lordships had not en-
quired. To begin with Cavan, the Chaplain of the gaol said
that he had made strict inquiry into the cases of all the priso-
ners, and that he (the Marquis of Normanby) had made him-
self thoroughly acquainted with their general character, and had
liberated none but such as had been powerfully recommended.
The remedy he had used had certainly been an effectual one,
fur none of these persons had returned to the gaol since. Now,
if, as it had been represented, these persons were of so bad a
character previously as almost constantly to be inmates of goals,
and if none ef them had been returned since, this certainly
justified the course which he had adopted. The House should
recollect that this was a branch of the inquiry against which he
had protested—that he did not think it was legal for them to
enter upon, and yet at this distance of time he was enabled to
produce documents which were his complete justification.
Therefore, however wearisome it might be to their Lordships
to hear documents read, and he knew well their Lordships did
so consider it, he trusted they would permit him to do so,
as he might now be considered on his defence.—(Cheers.)
Tire Noble Marquis then cotinued to read the documents
With regard to Sligo the Noble Marquis read the evidence
of Sir W. Parker, who stated that his Excellency's antici-
pations had been realized, as no individual had been again
committed, and crime had considerably diminished in the coun-
try, and the calendar had been less heavy. With regard to
Kilkenny the Noble Marquis read the testimony of Mr. Benson,
Local Inspector, who stated that the Lord Lieutenant had made
inquiries as to those whose conduct had been good during the
period of their confinement, and he had discharged two
persons whose time had nearly expired, and he directed the
Governor to report to him as to the conduct of one prisoner
of whose time four months remained unexpired at the end of
two months. Mr. Hurley, the Local Inspector of Kerry, bore
testimony to the fact of the inquiries that had been made into
the cases, and that those only had been liberated whose con.
duct had been correct, and whose times of imprisonment had
early expired.—(Hear, hear, hear.) With regard to
the County of Meath he could produce the testi-
mony of an eye witness, whose name lie could not mention
without giving utterance to those feelings of regard which the
name of one of the best, most just and most patriotic of the
friends of Ireland must necessary inspire, he meant the late
Lord Clements. That Noble Lord had stated that he resided
in an adjoining county to one in which certain prisoners had
been discharged, and he would state that proper inquiries had
been made previous to the discharge, and that his judicious
exercise of clemency had been followed by the best effects. His
Noble Friend to whom he had just alluded, said in the course
of a second debate, he would not as the gallant officer had done
rely upon anonymous authority, but would read to the House
a letter from Mr. Saunders of Castle-Sanders, in which that
gentleman said " as to the care and attention manifested in the
examination of the case his Excellency surprised us all byth
knowledge he exhibited as to each case brought before him''
and hoped that this testimony of a gentleman resident
the spot simile( be received by the Gallant Gentleman as a spe.
eimen of the care and attention which were bestowed on each
of these cases before they were determined on. This would
prove that he (the Marquis of Normanby) had sought local in-
formation from those persons best qualified to afford him the in-
formation on the spot, and he had framed his course according
to the circumstances of the place, regulating it by those princi-
ples which he had previously laid down for his guidance in the.j
exercise of the prerogative ; therefore, when the 240 cases
which he had exercised the prerogative of mercy were 1
those
men-
tioned, it should be borne in mind the proportion
to
oases
49,000,b0re toan tdh
toe totaltirenumbernumber
i amounted to
pre-
sented praying a commutation of sentence,.
•gna lin those counties
ooffme/moTialtltsail:iii‘cvni‘dlilce,i‘n amounted
Portio had not visited, and
5n ,ootoboe,
been
nnd exercisedi it would bienfoaundyetahtaety theioproo whicht've of mercy had
which he had visited,than in those which h
the transmission
his visiting those counties had preventedyihich had been
of memorials from them similar, thosepory had been so far justified
trans-
mitted from other places. • sic-in which this exercise of
by the results, that in those. counetri
crime
they
ascl,diminished.ere calle
d u p
oTheir
waYioms and usages of English
apply to this question all. the tLh:rdpsrheirioisgasthiOeulhdar.rietcaoklelencipt,elacel;en
and proceedings of that law had
plicable to Ireland, that they lead
law—that the axioms,
and apply,
Then exceptions on the side of severity
consider it hard that on the
measures of coercion.
bfreeeqnueonbtlligyebdeetno foundsu.sp e nsudois ond peration t iboene of those laws, d
passed over unnoticed had frequently
an. exception had been made on the
their Lordships should Ise called upon
eena:iisu(d'reh'.e dII-1(1, could not conclude without
fisbiyrdsett hoeofi
occasion
humanity,
m.cirondat
es.nhiti
toihypafals:::
to pass
raking some allusion to the grounds on which the Noble Earl
opposite had rested, when he had moved for this Committee.
The Noble had then stated that he considered the Govern-
ment responsible for all the tears and blood that had been shed
in Ireland ; he had stated that crime had existed to a greater
extent than had ever before been known, and that it had ex-
isted unrepressed. The Noble and Learned' Lord had stated
that he should only refer to about 50 pages of the evidence,
instead of that he had travelled over five or six hundred, but
not in all those pages, not even in one single page, could any
single word be found bearing out the assertion of the Noble
Earl, that the Government had not done every thing in its
power to repress crime, to discover it when committed, and to