The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-24 00:00:00

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod summoned the
House to the House of Lords, to bear the Royal Assent
given by Commission to several Bills( for which see Lords.)
Alderman WAITHMAN moved for a Return of the
quantity of grille, meal, and flour imported since 1818
to the latest retiod it could be made up, distinguishing
the quantity sent to Ireland and the Colonies.—Ordered.
A great number of petitions were presented for the re •
peal of the Aseessed Taxes, the Abolition of Slavery, and
Parliamentary Reform.
Mr. DUNCOaIBE presented a petition from Delgrave-
square, praying for an extension of the Twopenny Post.
lie wished to ask the Noble Lord if the Government in-
tended to :mike any alteration?
Lord ALTHORP said the subject was now under the
consideration of his Noble Friend at the head of the
Post Office, and he certainly hoped, before Parliament
re•araembled, an arrangement would be made satisfactory
to all parties.
Mr. RUTIIVEN said that one of the Masters in Chancery
had been called, on hie father's death, to the House of Lords,
by the title of Lord Henley. He considered therefore, rut
Peer of the realm, it would be inconsistent in him to hold
the office. He wished to ask whether it was the intention
of Government to take any steps on the subject ?
Lord ALTHORP was not aware there was any law on
the subject, and if it were a question of privilege it
could net be entertained in that House.
Colonel SHITHORPE said as the Clerkship of the Ord-
nance had been filled up, he wished to know whether it
was intended to fill up the Treasurship and Lieutenant-
Generalship of the Ordnance also ; because if it was, he
should give notice of a Committee to inquire into the ne-
cessity of it.
Lord ALTHORP—The Hon. Gentleman must be aware
that it is not the intention of Government to Ml up the
office of Lieutenant-General of the Ordn.nee,—(Hear.)
With respect to the Treasurership of that department, that
as well as the Paymasterahip of the Navy, was at the
present time under the consideration of Ministers, as to the
propriety of consolidating or abolishing them.
Colonel SIBTHORPE considered the clerkship of the
deliveries an useful office. He wished, therefore, to know
whether that was to be continued?
Lord ALTHORP could not give the Hon. Member a
satisfactory answer.
Mr. RUTHVEN said, if the 'Abject to which he had
alluded, respecting the Mastership in Chancey: was not
arranged. satisfactorily, hus should certainly Wing the
subject under the consideration of the Howie.
Sir E. B. SULIDEN hoped the Hon. Member would
not press any such metier'. It would be better not to
agitate it, as the Noble individual to whom he alluded had
efficiently performed his official duties.
After a few observations from Sir M. W. RIDLEY, the
conversation dropped.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
__

Lord ALTHORP moved the adjournn;nt of the Heise,
It had been intended to adjourn to the Bth of February,
but Ministers on rousiderstion had deternsiAerl on re-
assembling on Thursday. February 3, Under the present
circumstances of the country he thought this proposition

would not be objected to, as the House would then be in a
situation to go on with public business. He also thought that
the presence of gentlemen in their respective countie*
was, at the present crisis, more important than their at.
tendasce in that House. Ile therefore moved that the
House, at its rising, do adjourn to Thursday, the 9d of
February.
General GASCOYNE thought, under the present
circumstances of the country, the adjournment was too
protracted.
Colonel SIRTHOIIPE coincided in the sentiments of
the Gallant General. _ . .

Mr. L. WELLESLEY had eve►y confidence in the
present Government. They had done a great deal for the
country sines they had heen in office, aed promised to do
a great deal wore. lie should, therefore, support the
motion.
Lord L. COWER woe not one of those who had noli.
mited confidence in the present Government, yet he could
not join in the opposition eat up to the 2resent motion. He
considered that ►n the eireumstineel in which the Ministry
were now *iced any opposition would he an unfair inter-
fereoce.-4Hear, hear.) He therefore cordially acquiesced
in the motion.,

Air. Ii OE betted, before the House adjouroolt
a_.day wttit! It be fixed for bringing on the grant and
important question of Parliereentary Reform. •
therefore, to know on what sky after the recess the
nistera intended to bring it forward.
Lord ALTHORP, at the present moment, could not
name any particular day._( Hear.) He could, however. as-
sure the Hon. Member, that it was the most anxious
wish of Government to bring forward that great question,
and could moreover assure bin that the very earliest day
possible should be named for so doing,.—(Hear.)
Sir H. VIVIAN thought the House ought to adjourn
only for a fortnight, and then, if no pressing business
presented itself, to adjourn for another fortnight, and then
another adjournment, to make up the time of six weeks;
but he objected to the proposed adjournment.
Mr. SLANEY did not object to the adjournment, but
wished to ask the Noble Lord if it was the intention of
Government to take toy steps in order to alleviate the
p-asantry in the Southern provinces of the kingdom, and
also to amend the present Arises in the poor lime.
Lord ALTHORP said, the subjects to which the
Honourable Member alluded were under the con-
sideration of Government, and he should be happy to
attend many plan that could be devised for that object.
Mr. CALCIUM* only regretted the proposed adjourn.
Ment, helmets' it would suspend the labours of the Com.
mnittee appointed to huptire into the condition of the la-
bouring damn. In .his opinion the proposal to adjourn
for only a fortnight ought by no means to be entertained,
as so brief an adjournment, under existing circumstances,
would evince an alarm for the peace of the country, which
it would not be politic to exhibit. Ile could not sit down
without expresaing his surprise that the duty on twine
should have been lowered by a Treasury minute, no appli-
cation having been made !for the sanction of Parliament.
although sitting at the time when the measure was carried
into effect.

Mr. RICE stated, with reference to the proposed ad-
journment, that it had been agreed on,- solely with a view
to enable Ministe►s, so to mature their plans as to admit of
their being efficiently brought forward, and not for any
purposes of personal convenience to themselves. As to
the suggestion that Parliament should have been consulted
on the subject of the Treasury minute respecting barills,
he might observe that a resolution of the House would not
in the least conduce to the legality of the proceeding,
which was in perfect conformity with recent precedents
witness the case of the Treasury minute of the sth of
Febtuary, 1825, also made during the Session of Parlia-
ment.

Sir G. CLERK insisted that the Treasury minute al-
luded to merely referred to sulphate of quinine, and (lid
not at all apply to the care of batilla sugar. Precedent, on
the contrary, was quite against this unconstitutional as-
sumption of power, for Mr. Canning, who reduced the
duty on corn in 1826, by a Treasury minute, imme-
distaly sselleval himself of the responsibility by an applica-
tion for the *Motion ,at Parliament, aishinsertists-lisirvist
that season bad been unusually unfavourable.

Mr. ROBINSON hoped that Government was pre-
pared to disavow henceforward the principle on which
they bad in this instance acted, and that they would not
again attempt a similar exercise of assumed authority.—
The Hon. Gentleman complimented the Noble Lord who
filled the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer on the
courtesy which he had hitherto manifested with reference
to questions as to the intentions of Ministers, and begged
leave to suggest the propriety of naming an early diy for
the opening of the Budget.—(Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER concurred
with the lion. Member in thinking that it would be pro-
per to possess the public of the intentions of his Majesty's
Ministers as soon as it was possible to do so, and therefore
proposed to take an early opportunity of bring forward the
Budget after the recess.—(Hear, hear.)—lle was also
quite ready
.to acknowledge that the practice of acting on
Treasury minutes, without the authority of Parliament,
was one which ought not to be persevered in, as thepria-
ciple was certainly unconstitutional.—(flear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was of opinion that Go-
vernment, by reducing the duty in question, had shown
an early and commendable attention to the interests of the
country. Ile begged, however, to know front the Noble
Lord whether it watt the intention of Ministers to bring in
the amend' l Stamp Act which had been in contemplation
of the late Government, as, if not, be was pledged to his
constituents to bring that subject, together with marine
and fire policies, under the consideratien of the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that the present Government diil intend to persevere in
the Bill which they had found in preparation on their
coming into office.
It was then agreed that the House at its rising should
adjourn to Vehruary S.
CORBETT'S REGISTER.

Mr, TREVOR, pursuant to his notice of motion, rose
for the purpose of stilenittitig certain passages from a
weekly paper entitled Cobbeit's Register, to the considera-
tion of the House, conceiving that in so doing he was only
doing his duty to his country, which Koch a course in his
opinion was calculated to serve. At the same time he
could not help regretting, that some older• or more efficient
Member had not undertaken what Iw, however sincere in
his good intender', was so inadequate to discharge. The
writer to whom lie alluded bad put forth a series of in•
flammatory addressee, the purport of which wits triities-
thimble, whether they were defensible in law or
liable to punishment. A few extracts from the num-
ber which he had particularly selected would, he trusted,
sufficiently satisfy the House of the pernicious ten-
dency of this publication, circulating as it principally
did amongst the artisans and labouring class of the
community. A clergyman in Suffolk had most ju-
diciously issued a circular amongst his patishiorets,
setting before the lower orders the inevitable ruin which
they were bringing upon themselves by their violation of
the law, and Wag th,refore vituperated in the most scans
delous language by this pasquinader, who, in the same pa-
ragreple traced the redaction of tithes to the resistance of
the labourers and the influence of the fires. He (Mr.
Trevor) ventured to appeal to the good sense of the Home
whether such arguments could be penned for any purpose
but that of exciting the population to turbulence end discon-
tent, In ref-rcnce to Cambridgeshire, this writer bad fur-
ther asserted that the magistraey and landed interest had
never thought of relieving the poor until the fires Were
kindled and the labourers rose. lie admitted that the
acts in which the labourers were engaged must be ""i"
doted in them.elves unlawful, but added that that body
were starring, and that it was no crime to take by finer
wherewithal to support miture, when the labourer and bit
family were compelled to live no less than was held no-
eeleary for the sustenance of a connnou moldier. Le proof
of the gentle spirit exhibited by the people in all their die•
trews, he instanced the ease of two overseers in Sussex,
whom they contented themselves with trundling out of the
parish, when, had they been sanguinary, they might have
murdered them in their beds. He insisted, moreover,
that every one, except the infamous stack-jobbers, acknow-
letiged that the perpetrate's, of the late outeeve were doing
nothing but what they ought
cu have done. The Hoe.
Gentleman read front the Repisler a series of paragraphs,
of which the foregoing sentences are the substance, anti
concluded by asking whether he Might not exclaim le the
language of Cicero, Quausque tandeniE aladere potientin
ntuira 1 In the pinion of the illtotrious 'Edmond Burke,
and he might also add Lord Grenville, whose lamented
infirmities bad eo long prevented him front participating
in public affairs, it was to such publications that the first
French rtvalutjon might be mainly attributed. fle Was

no enemy to the liberty of the Press, for the Press wa•
the most eligible vehicle of public opinion, and exer-
cised a wholesome controul over the actions of men In
power ; but when unworthily directed, he might too troly
pay of it, —corruptio ornnium pessima est. To the. un-
fortunate and infatuated violators of the law, it was befit-
ting a just Minister to extend every possible clemency and
indulgence, but surely their insidious and designing insti-
gators were far ft um deset ving objects of a similar forbear.
ance. As he had shown, there could be no mistake uto
the libellous and seditious teudency of the paragraphs to
which be 1141 called the attention of the House, and in
thus bringing them substantirely under its consideration,
he felt that he bad done his duty. It lay with the House
to &termitic the future course of proceeding, whether• it
should be referred to the Government, or that the Attor-
ney-General should be ordered to proceed with a proseen-
tkm, or any other remedy which in its wisdom it might
sanction. The llen. Member concluded with moving a
resolution to the effect, that the publication estitled cob-
belts Register of the llth of December contained 4 ma-
licious and scandalous libel o■ the authorities of the state,
incornput i!,le with the proceedings of the Goverutnent, and
gross and unwarrantable attack en the members of the
Church by Law established, the tendency of which was
subversive of the laws, and conducies to anarell- aml de-
lusion.
.Mr. G. PRICE was understood to wooed the r.tsolotion.

Mr. DuLwEn was opposed to the nom thmher's
motion. He thought there was no need, under the exist-
ing system of libel law, to urge the law-officers of the
Crown to prosecute for political offences ; and would rather
see Attorney-Generals seeking as much as possible to avoid
such prosecutions than too zealous in instituting them.
Besides, in the present state of the public mind, such a
prosecution as the lion. Member's resolution pointed at
would be as impolitic as ill-timed, apart from other con-
siderations, most weighty as they appeared to him ; for
unless Ministers succeeded in obtaining a verdict, the mis•
chief would be. aggravated ; and it might not be a very
easy matter just now to obtain a verdict. The proper
corrective was an improved state of the public mind, and
that was Co be only attained by the diffusion of sound
knowledge, which again depended:on an unimpeded circu-
lation of opinion. In saying this, he was not the apologist
of the abuses of the press ; all that be meant was, that
prosecution was not the most efficient remedy, and that
the dissemination of useful instrection was.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
not detain the House many minutes on the present oecasiou.
It was nut only his own ',pinion, but that of the best
judges, that it was expedient to leave the question of pro-
secution in cases similar to that just submitted to the
House by the Hon. Member fur Romney to tfie discretion
of the Government, than diet they should be thus enter-
tained.—(llear.) Undoubtedly occasions may present
themselves in which the House might inquire into the ne-
cessity of a prosecution by the law officers of the crown of
writings of a libellous or seditious tendency; but even then
he held that it would be the better course not to inquire
till after the prosecution had been instituted or wholly
declined by the Government. If the House did not place
confidence in the present Goverment, and therefore felt
that it should take upon itself the duties which properly
devolved on the executive, it would, of course, adopt the
Hen: Member's resolution. Rut if, on the other hand, it
did place confidence in the present ministry---(Hear)—and
he trusted it did—(Hear)—it would refer the matter to
their discretion, and accordingly withhold its assent to the
motion.—(licar.) Per himself individually, and for his
colleagues, he hoped they should deserve the support and
confidence of Parliament, by not neglecting their duty,
even when it led them to cull upon the law officers of the
Crown to interfere in cases of libel. He hoped that they
would get credit for not willingly having, as it were,
called upon the AttorneyeGeneral to institute prosecu-
tions for political offences,.-.and that it would be left
to their discretion to say what offences should, and
what should not, he thus prosecuted.—(Hear.) As
to the publication referred to by the Hon. Member
for Romney, he would not then offer an opinion. He
would studiously abstain—and he thought it the duty
cif evety Hon. Membeessulats to. Athatoino.e.frona, prtjudging
the question brine:Spin-10 on herreweitue effie estOraK. he
repented, offer no onittien Whatever with reference to the
tendency of the publication. Nor would he say whether
it was or was Hirt one of those offences which the Attor-
ney-General had been called upon to prosecute; but he
would say, that to adopt the Hon. Member's motion would
be to prejudge the question, and so far impede the admi-
nistration of justice, and defeat the end the lion. Member
may have proposed[ to hituself.—(Hear, hear.) Besides,
there was no precedent-.-at least fer the last 50 years....
for such a motion ; that is, for the House's anticipating,
as it were, the functions of the Attorney-General, unless
in cases affecting its own immediate privilege'. In such
cases, but in such cases only, could the House be justified,
on principle and precedent, to assume its right and power
of interference. But the present'evas no such case, and
therefore should nut he entertained by it.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile begged to be understood as not questioning the abstract
right and power of the House's interfering in cases like
that then before it, if it en thought fit and expedient; but
as only deprecating the necessity and policy of its then
exercising that right and power.—(Hear, hear.) If he
was right that, as a general principle, it was better to
leave it to the discretion of Ministers whether prosecutions
should or should not be instituted for political offences
in culinary times, it was *till more so in the exist-
ing state of the public mind.--(leer, hear.) Lee the
House consider how---`supposing that a prosecution should
be instituted—the decision might be influenced by the pre-
vious discussion of a necessarily popular assembly.—
([tear. )_Would it not be impossible but that the opinions
which would ho elicited in the course of the discussion in
that House,—on the present publication for example,—
would interfere with the due administration of justice,
supposing it was afterwards to be referred to a jury?—
(Hear, hear.)—Would not, in fact, such prejudging of the
question be productive of the most Mischievous conse-
quences to the ends of justice ?—(llearo—iie trusted,
then, the House would not open the door to such mis-
chievous consequences, by laying down the precedent of
the present motion. As, however, he was not disposed to
offer a decided negative to the lion. Member's proposi-
tion, he would adopt the course usually followed under
such circumstances., and pass on to the orders of the day,
by meving the previous question,—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CHOKER begged leave to suggest to his lion.
Priced, after the declarations of the Noble Lord opposite,
that the Attorney•Oeneral had been ordered to institute
prosecutions fur some political offences.—and as the interests
of justice would be more promoted by leaving the inetitu.
tion of souls prosecutions to the discretion of Ministers,
the responsible authorities ; and above all, as in the pre-
bent excited state of the public mind there might be groat
denger.from a hostile discussion in that House, to with-
draw his motion.--•( Hear, hear.)
Mr, G. PRICE also would suggest to his Hon. Friend
the expediency of withdrawing his unction, and leaving the
matter in the hands of the Government. _

• Lurd NOR REY S said, one of the moat powerful engines
by which the promoters of sedition operated on the minds
and passions of their deluded victims, was the distressed
state of the country. lie did hope his Majesty's Ministers
Would, during the recess, give the matter their most
serious attention, that they would find some effectual anti
adequate measures for relieving the distressed state of
agriculture, and that, by placing some legislative check
against the too free admission of tin alga materials, they
would afford protection to trade and agriculture. Let the
House alleviate (at least attempt to alleviate) the distress
so general in its consequences, and so universal in its ex-
tent. Let them show that they were not unmindful of
the difficulties of the country, and the promoters of it.
dition would in vain circulate their poisonous and Wain-
wooly pamphlets.
Mr. A. TREVOR said, that in bringing this subject
before the House he had only been actuated by a sense of
duty. Nothing could have been farther ft om his intention
titan to embarraw the Government; and he could, perhaps,
give no better proof of the sincerity with which he said
so, than by withdrawing his tuotion.—(ilear, bear.)
The motion Was accordingly withdrawn.
A GENERAL VAST.

Mr. PERCEVAL said—l rise, to give notice that
mediately after the recess I shall move that an address be
presented to his Majesty, praying that his fklajetty will
be graciously pleased to appoint a day fur a General Fast...—
Several Hoe. Members—A geutual what?
Mr. PEIICEV Al, continued—A General Fast through-
out the kingdom.—(Cries et "Oh oh and much
laughter.)
VICE•TREA.SUItRIt' OF IRELAND.

Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD rose in consequence

41)kiotTro To Move production of weirdo Trea.
sury. Ministers, respecting the office of Vice.Treartirer
Ireland. He disclaimed all personal and political feeling
upon the subject ; but maintained tint the clamorous call
which had been mode for the abolition of the dice in
question had proceeded from ignorance and from improper
motives. It had peen said that the °Mee Was a sinecure ;
he would, however, move for return*, which would chow
not only that it was no ainecure,but that it was an office of
indispensible utility. The Right Hon. Gentleman hare
entered into various details to show that in a pecuniary
point of view the abolition of the office would not he at-
tended with any saving ; but the noise and confusion in the
House were such, that it was impossible accurately to fol
low him. The abolition of the office was equally objec-
tionable in n political pout of view, It was
to the due execution of the public service that there
should be come person in that Howes connected, with
the Treasury of Ireland. At present there wile no
°Bloc thole connected with Ireland, that was filled
by an Irishman. The contequenea of this wee, that roods
tuiscbief ensued, because the offices in Ireland -were onto
filed with Englishmen, utterly igeoraet of the circum-
stances of the country, and of the duties of the office they
were celled on to undertake; or if pot ignorant, then
perhaps independent of contrast. He mart say, that with
a view to prevent the recurrertee of such conarquetices, he
could have wished, that instead of abolishing the office, the
Government had tilled it by the appointment of some Irish
gentleman of high talent and high character, whoa* 49-
point:tient would hare been of retries both to the Govern-
ment and the country. He should have been glad to have
seen the appointment conferred upon the Hon. Member for
Queen's County, and he had no doubt that that Hon.
Baronet would have been enabled to bring the revenues
there into a good state. Under these eireutnateotal.
whether he considered the abolition of the office es relating
to its political character, or as connected with the ad-
ministration of the Government, he mat say that he
thought the arrangement wee one to be regretted. The
Right Lion. Gentleman trusted that hie motives in lacking
these observations woukt not he adatakeni. and
by moving that a copy of 'he Trtorory/trumber the 19th
July and 20th September, 1929, end of the 54 ofJoansary,
1823, relating to the effice of Yiee-Tressurer of Ireland.
be laid before the House.

Lord ALTHORP know the Right Hoe. Gentleman too
well to Attribute to him any improper motives in the oh-
ser►ations he had just made. The Right Hon: Gentlemen
had spokes of the matter with regard to its connection
with economy and its pelitital Atwitter, anti seemed to
think that the abolition of the oMes was sot a wise mea-
sure, as regarded its suppeeed economy. Ile could not
understand the argument of the Right Hon. Gentlemen
on that point. From the fret moment of his becoming
acquainted with the nature of the Oleo up to tbs present
time, it had been hie opinion that it was as allies which
might well have been dispensed with. He believed that
the duties of the ®Aloe were almost entirely performed by
the Chief Clerk. There bad been a salary of 20001, a
year for the office of Vice-Treasurer of Ireland--a salary
of 8001. a year for his deputy, sad a salary of 1000/. to
the senior Chief Clerk. Tbs whole of the labour would
now be performed by the latter gentleman for a salary of
1,200/., end he believed it would be found that that gill.
. . _

_ .
tlemen alone was fully equal to the holiness, and indeed,
as he was an active man, might perhaps be able to dispew.e
with the services of one or more clerks in the estahlial►-
ment. Having stated these facts upon the question of the
economy of the mtasare, he OM CAM to the point Mat-
ilng to the political character of the dim. One general prin-
ciple he must declare—that he was glad that a Parliamen-
tary place had been abolished.—(Cheers.) The office had
been a long while in existence, and he was not aware that
any political advantage had been derived from it.--([dear. )
If he could have seen any, he should hove been glad to
continue it. Ile regretted to hare heard the observations
of the Right Hon. Gentleman with respect to offices in
Ireland being filled by Englishmen. He hoped the time
would come when, in the real spirit of onion, Irishmen
might fill offices is England, aid Englishmen 11l olden in
_ _

Ireland, without exciting any remark an either silo
(Hear.) 11* was sure that the people of Ireland felt no,
jealousy upon if. He should now only add, that the state-
ment of the Right lion. Gentleman had not altered his
opinion with respect to the offise, aed he did mot in the
least regret its abolition. lie had no abjection to the motion.
Mr. HUME thought the arrangement made,with respect
to this office was both wise and economical, and expressed
his sincere hope that the abolition of several offices, where
only one was necessary, and the simplifying of the public
accounts, was only the beginning of that system of econotny
from which the country must derive great advantage.