The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY,-EVENING EDITION,-FEBRITARY 16, 1839.

subjects—their property, their lives, and every thing which
makes existence dear to them—are, they believe, perilled
by the present state of things. My Lords, since I last
addressed your Lordships, I have received a letter from a
gentleman high in authority in Canada, from which I will
take the liberty of reading an extract. It is dated the
10th of January, 1839 —" We are all soldiers, and we fear
that there will soon be. no bread for want of labourers.
If the British Government means to maintain the
Canadian colonies something must be done. The
country will soon be worth nothing if an amendment does
not take place. As to keeping things quiet by a standing
army it is all nonsense—it cannot be done for any length of
time. Give us a Constitution from the Imperial Parliament
and the rebellion will soon be put down." My Lords, I
repeat I trust your Lordships will without delay take up
this question, and I for one shall not object to your being
furnished with every information and every explanation
which you can possibly require.
The Earl of WICKLOW said he thought the Noble
Earl opposite had fallen into the mistake of supposing
that the letter from the Secretary for the Colonies, ap-
proving of his report, rendered it imperative to lay it upon
the table of the House.
The Earl of DURHAM—interrupting said, all he had
done was to appeal to the Noble Viscount at the head of
the Government, to lay the report before their Lordships,
he having heard that it was not to be produced.
The Earl of WICKLOW said it did appear to him,
especially from what had fallen from the Noble Earl, to
the effect that though the subject was well under-
stood in Canada, this country was in ignorance about it—
that it should be inquired into whether there was not more
information than Parliament at present possessed which
ought to be furnished by Government, because the report
of the Noble Earl was formed only by a five months' resi-
dence in Canada : whereas another Noble Earl (Gosford)
had resided in the colony a considerable time, as likewise had
Lord Aylmer, and it was right that Parliament should know
their opinions upon the subject.
Lord M EL BOURN E.—My Lords, I do not myself see
how the Noble Earl ( Durham) could have seri posed it was
the intention of Government not to publish his report,
but I think that the Noble Earl was very unfortunately in.
duced to take that step which be himself acknowledges
was the probable cause of the publication of the report in
the papers, viz., the communication of copies to his friends
—( Hear, hear)—and which rendred it nee, scary that the
report should he hid in calenso before Parliament, without
any consideration of what might be the consequence.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl seems to think that the
letter he received from the Colonial Office was a letter
of license for the publication, whereas it was only an
acknowledgement of the reception of the report—( Hear,
hear, hear)—and of the attention and labour which
the Noble Lord had bestowed upon its composition.
—( Hear, hear.) I do not see how any further meaning
could be attached to it, or that it could have the effect of
prejudging any further communications which it might be
necessary to hold with the Noble Earl upon the sulject.—
( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Noble Earl says
the publication of the report was not in the slightest
degree dangerous—but that does not effect the
present question, which is, whether the Government
ought not to have had the power of exercising their dis-
cretion as to whether the publication was likely to produce
such effects or not.—(Hear, hear.) The Government
were cut off from exercising that discretion, and very ill
results may possibly arise from it.—( Hear, hear.) With
regard to what the Noble Earl opposite (Wicklow) has
said, undoubtedly all necessary information upon the sub-
ject shall be laid before your Lordships. The reports
made by my Noble Friend (Earl Gosford) during his
Administration, have already been laid before Parliament,
but if there are any other papers which may be at all ma-
terial, they shall be furnished. —( Hear, hear.)
Lord G LEN ELG said if the Government had the op-
portunity of considering and deciding if there should be
laid before Parliament that report which was not in the
power of the Noble Lord, but of those who so decided;
he was under the impression that the report might under-
go the mature consideration of the Government before .it
was laid before Parliament. The Government would then
be completely unfettered by any after-considerations. An
objection had been made to printing that report, but that
was no new practice, for he bad known it done in many
instances in regard to documents of great public impor-
tance. He could prove by repeated instances, that reports
had been altered in some parts, other parts had been
wholly left out, and riot one word of the original
had been laid before the House. The same rules
must apply in this respect to copies of reports laid
before the other House. He could say, however,
that no direction had been given at the Colonial Office for
that purpose ; the directiens were precisely the same as
those given on other occasions. In regard to the motion
before the House, respecting the publication of that report,
he thought it was necessary the same document should be
produced as that originally transmitted. He had objected
last session to the production of that dispatch, not because
he thought the Government felt personally, if he might say
so, for individually could have had no objection,—but he
objected because it involved severe animadversions
on the cenduct of parties which should have been com-
municated to them previously, otherwise the case would be
that they would see in the Parliament papers, for the first
time, severe animadversions on themselves and relatives.
He thought it a great misfortune that the case Sir Francis
Head required could not be started without the produc-
tion of those papers ; but he admitted the necessity of
their production ; and, as far as it can be done consistently,
he should wish for their production.
Lord BROUGHAM quite agreed with the last speaker.
The publication of this document, however, although a
dangerous thing, could not be said to be altogether unpre-
cedented. It was perfectly true that many similar instances
had been known. He bad himself known many. It appeared
that the confidential Secretaries of the Secretary of State
were sworn, so were the Clerks of that Department. It
was not unprecedented that breaches of trust had been
committed in certain quarters, not in the offices, but by
persons to whom papers bad been officially committed.
He (Lord Brougham) had once known an instance of an
Irish Bill of a peculiar nature, of which two or three
copies had been sent to the Crown office, a copy of which
appeared in, he ( Lord B.) thought, a Dublin newspaper.
His Noble Friend behind him, perhaps, would recollect the
circumstance, a strict inquiry took place into the circum-
stance, which was a most flagrant breach of trust.
those copies were delivered for perusal, and not for publi-
cation. They endeavoured to discover with whom the
crime lay, but all their exertions were vain ; and at the pre-
sent moment it was matter of suspicion. He (Lord
Brougham) had his suspicions on the subject ; but those
suspicions, he begged to be understood, did not rest upon
any of the officers in the printing department of the
Government.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought that an inquiry
ought to be made, as to who was the person who ordered
2,000 copies to be printed.
Lord WH A RNCLIFFE considered that it was neces-
that some inquiry should take place on the subject.
The Earl of DURHAM felt called upon to state one
or two facts. When he had completed his report, a com-
munication took place between the Under- Secretary of
State (Sir G. Grey) and himself upon the subject, and
not with the Noble Lord then at the head of the Colonial-
office. With him he (Lord Durham) had no communi-
cation since his return to this country. After his commu-
nication with Sir G. Grey an arrangement was entered
into between that Right Hon. Baronet and his (Lord
Durham's) Secretary, for the purpose of having the Re-
port pristed in a manner that would save expence. The
whole arrangement for the printing of that Report was en-
tered into by his Secretaries and Sir George Grey, and
therefore it was not right to say that the Colonial-office had
had no communication whatever with him upon the sub-
' ject. As there had been some mistake with respect to the
letter, he trusted that the Noble Viscount would have no
objection to his laying it before the House.
Viscount MELBOURNE—Certainly not.
The Earl of DURHAM said that the Noble Viscount
having no objection, he would lay it upon the table of the
House. _ _ _ _

Lord GLENELG said that it was due to Sir George
Grey, after what has been stated, that he should make a
few observations. He (Lord Glenelg) was perfectly
aware of the communication that had taken place between
the Noble Lord and Sir G. Grey, and what he had done
was entirely with his sanction. Sir George Grey
bad acceded to the arrangement for printing the Report
with the approbation of himself (Lord Glenelg).ll It was
printed by Hansard under the direction of Sir G. Grey,
at the request of the Noble Earl, or those connected with
him.
Lord DURHAM said he should not allude at present
to any facts which had been stated by the Noble Lord,
but all he wished most distinctly to state was
that Sir George Grey did communicate with him
several times, upon the necessity of having this
Report presented to the Cabinet as early as possible, that
it might be printed on the first day on which Parliament
met. That in consequence of that arrangements were
made for printing all the sheets immediately that they
could possibly come from him. And he understood from
Sir George Grey that the very utmost despatch would be
used for the printing of the Report, in order to have copies
of them circulated among Members of the two Houses of
Parliament, in number amounting to nearly two thousand
copies. That he most distinctly stated.
Lord MELBOURNE said it was to get information
from the Noble Earl that they were so anxious ; that was
what they wanted. But he never understood that Go-
♦ernment was so anxious for them for the purpose of lay_
ingit before Parliament.
Lcrd DURHAM moved that a copy of his letter accom-
panying his Report to the Colonial Secretary, and the
Colonial Secretary's answer to that letter, be laid on the
table.--Agreed to.
Lord DUNCANNON stated that with respect to cer-
tain returns which he had been asked for a night or two
ago, the last of those returns were made up in April last,
and that the next return would not be made until April next.
The Marquis of SALISBURY wished to know whether
the returns respecting the turnpike trusts which he had
moved for in the course of last Session were ready to be
produced?
Lord MELBOURNE again rose, and said, be under-
stood the return called for referred to the Treasurer's ac•
counts of Turnpike Trusts; and, secondly, of all charges
and mortgages on Turnpike roads. This information
was extremely large and voluminous. He did not mean to
say anything reflecting- on anybody, but there was a little
indisposition to give the necessary information. However,
every ' exertion was making, in order to enablo them to
make,the return.—Adjourned.

CORN-LAWS.
Mr. GEORGE PALMER presented a petition from
Stockwell, against any repeal of the Corn-laws.
An Hos. MEMBER presented a petition from Rutland,
to the same effect.
Mr. HOWARD presented a petition from Chelms-

lord, praying for the total abolition of Church-rates.
The petitioners also wished to direct the particular
attention of the House to the case of Mr. Tho-
roughgood, who, in consequence of having re-
fused to pay Church-rates to the amount of ss. 6d., had
been incarcerated in prison along with common felons and
debtors.

CORN-LA` `i.
The Marquis of DOURO presented a petition from the
Mayor and Corporation of Norwich, praying for animme-
diate and total abolition of the Corn-laws.

Sir DE LAC Y EVANS presented a petition from the
Westminster Reform Society to the same effect, and pray-
ing that evidence might be heard at the bar of that House
on the subject.
Mr. STRUTT presented a similar petition from Derby,
unanimously agreed to at a meeting of the Town Council of
that place. The Hon. Member then presented another
petition, agreed to at a public meeting, at which the Mayor
presided, signed by 2,800 inhabitants—they prayed that
evidence might be heard at the bar on the subject; and
also that the House would carry out to the fullest extent,
both in agriculture and manufactures, the principles of free
trade.
Sir C. B. VE RE presented five petitions from places in
Suffolk in favour of the present system of the Corn-laws.
The assessments made upon the property of the individuals
who had signed one of the petitions amounted to 35,0001.
The number of acres held by those who had signed another
of the petitions wes 15,000, and the signatures attached to
a third represented property to the amount of 90,000 acres.
Sir H. PARNELL presented a petition from the
bankers, merchants, and manufacturers of Dundee, against
the present system of Corn-laws, and praying that they
might be heard by counsel against all the laws affecting
free trade in commerce and manufactures.
LUNATIC ASYLUM.

Mr. B A RNABY presented a petition from Hereford,
praying for an inquiry into a house kept by a certain indi-
vidual for the custody of insane persons, and detailing
several instances of mismanagement.
The petition was ordered to be printed with the votes.
Mr. CHALMERS presented a petition from. Ar-
broath against the Corn-laws. The petitioners stated that
the partial failure of crops during three successive sea-
sons had entailed great sufferings and privations on the
working classes—that in consequence of foreign compe-
tition their manufacturers were obliged to reduce the
wages of their workmen, which scarcely afforded them the
necessaries of life ; that in France, Be!gium, the Nether-
lands, and America manufactures had been established.
and even supplying the markets which were formerly ex-
clusively supplied by that country. The Hon. Member
then presented petitions from the Town Canned of
Forair; from the incorporated trades of Arboath, and
from a parish in Inverness-shire to the same effcct.
Mr. CLAY presented a petition from Poplar, in the
district of the Tower Hamlets, signed by 1,000 persons.
It was a long well-drawn petition, and he would not
trouble the House with reading it at length, but cne Para
graph was very important ; it stated that Parliament having
thi own the humbler classes on their own resources, by enact-
ing the Poor-laws, would have shown more considera-
ation if it had commenced by taking off all restrictions on
the free importation of corn.
Mr. SHAW LE FE VRE presented a petition from
Odiham, in the county of Hampshire, for the repeal of the
Corn-laws; and another from another place in the same
county, to the same effect.
Mr. BAINES presented a petition from a place in
Yorshire praying for a repeal of the Corn-laws, and of
all laws, whether in connection with their own manufac-
tures or others, which tended to prevent free trade ; also a
petition from Horbury, in the same county, to a similar
effect.
Captain BOLDER() presented a petition from Chip-
per-it-lam, in Wiltshire, signed by landowners, farmers, and
by gentlemen unconnected with agriculture, against any
alteration in the Corn-laws.
Mr. HOUSTON presented a petition from a place, the
name of which we could not hear, complaining of the
spiritual destitution in Scotland.
LIABIIaITY OF INNKEEPERS.
Captain PE C H EL L presented a petition, signed by 84
innkeepers in the borough of Brighton, being the entire
number in that town. They stated that by the present
laws they were bound to receive and entertain all
travellers, and all goods belonging to them ; that it
had been held that they were bound to make resti-
tution for all goods which were stolen from their
inns, although they had not been given into their custody,
or the custody of their servants, or without being aware
that such goods were brought into their houses. That
however expedient such provisions might be in former
times it was unnecessary at the present day, because none
but persons of good character could obtain licenses, and that
their conduct was open to the inspection of the authorities
who had the power of withholding the renewal of the li-
cense if they conducted themselves improperly—that not-
withstanding these laws they were subject to much vexa-
tion and expense in, making remuneration for property
said to have been stolen from their houses—and
they therefore prayed that the laws imposing such
liabilities might be revised, and such relief afforded as to
the House might seem meet. The petitioners did not pray
for the removal of the entire responsibility, but to be re-
lieved to the amount of 101. He concurred in the prayer
of this petition and hoped the House would take their case
into its consideration, and allow the Bill to be brought in
of which he bad given notice, in order that they might be
placed on the same footing as carriers and the proprietors
of stage ceaches.

CORN-LAWS.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL presented petitions
from several parishes in the county of Kent, praying the
House nut to make any alteration in the Corn-laws.
Mr. FLEMING presented three petitions from places
in the county of Kent to the same effect.
Mr. L A BOUC HERE presented a petition from Taun-
ton, in favour of a revision of the existing system of Corn-
laws. The Hon. Gentleman observed, that the first name
appended to the petition was that of Sir Thomas Leth-
bridge, one of the largest proprietors of the county.—( Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. SANDFORD presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Langport, Somersctshire, in favour of the
Corn-laws.
Mr. DARB Y presented two petitions, one from Shore-
ham, signed by 66 persons, and the other from Brighton,
signed by 59 persons, in favour of the Corn-laws.
Mr. G. W. WOOD presented a petition from Ken-
dal against the Corn laws. The petitioners stated that
the present system only tended to the advantage of foreign
manufacturers, and that on every occasion when there
was a deficient harvest, the population of the country
was plunged into distress ; they therefore prayed
to be heard by Counsel at the bar of the House,
against a law which deprived them of the necessaries of
life, and that the House would pass a Bill for the total
repeal of the Corn-laws.--( Hear, hear.) The Honour-
able Member also stated that the utmost harmony prevailed
between the working classes in Kendal and their employers ;
and that they had co-operated together with great unan-
imity and cordiality in getting up this petition.—( Cheers.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL—Are the remarks which the
Hon. Member is now making contained in the petition ?
( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) A
Mr. G. W. WOOD—My last remark is not.—(Laugh-
ter.) The petition was signed by 2,666 inhabitants of
that borough, which contained a population of not more
than 12,000 souls.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition from Preston
against the Corn-laws. The petitione:s expressed their
alarm at the successful competition of Continental ma-
nufacturers, which they considered could only be attri-
buted to the operation of these obnoxious laws. Also
one from Lancaster, praying for the total and imme-
diate repeal of these laws. Also one from the Board of
Guardians of the Union of Wolverhampton, praying for
their total repeal. Also one from a number of merchants and
manufacturers deeply engaged in commerce,who represented
thousands of their fellow-subjects, as evinced at public
meetings ; and they stated that the Corn-laws were very
injurious to their interests, and a grievance to the public,
and they prayed that they might be allowed to give evi-
dence at the bar in support of the allegations contained in
their petition. He moved that it be printed with the Votes,
and gave notice that on Tuesday next he would move
that evidence be taken at the bar, in accordance with the
prayer of the petition.
Mr. BAIN E S, seeing the Right Hon. Baronet the Pre-
sident of the Board of Control in his place, wished to ask
some questions. In the first place, he wished to know
whether there would now be any objection to laying the
dispatch of the Bth of August, which regulated the
course to be pursued by the servants, civil and
military, in India, with respect to the religious
services of the Hindoos, on the table of the House ?
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE had not the slightest objec-
tion to laying that despatch on the table of the House ;
and he would take that opportunity of stating that the
despatch had been acted upon by the Governor-General,
and had given satisfaction.

CORN-LAWS.
Mr. DENNISTOUN gave notice that, on Monday, he
would present a petition from Glasgow, praying for a total
repeal of the Corn-laws, signed by 43,000 persons.
Lord MORPETH presented a petition from the
clothiers of Huddersfield, of the West Riding of York-
shire, complaining of the grievances they suffered from
the operations of the Corn-laws, which tended to
raise the price of cloth much higher than that
manufactured on the Continent. The petitioners prayed
for the establishment of a free trade in corn. The Noble
Lord also presented a petition from Yorkshire to the same
effect.
CHURCH EXTENSION.
Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR presented three petitions
from places in Scotland, praying for a further endowment
for the Church of Scotland.

Mr. HUME begged to ask if the Hon. Member meant
to persevere in the motion which stood second in the paper,?
Sir GEO. SINCLAIR would take every means the
forms of the House allowed him to do so.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from
Struud praying for an alteration in the present system of
Corn- laws.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON presented a petition from the
county of Galway, Ireland. against the system of National'
Education, and praying that no system of education ishould
be established in that country, but that in which the reading
of the Bible was made an essential, so that the children of
Protestants might not be deprived,of its benefits.
MR. HARVEY'S CASE.

The SPEAKER said although this was a day on which,
according to the rules of the. House, orders should take
precedence ; yet, as the motion of the Honourable Mem-
ber for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Wynn) was one which
ought not to be postponed, perhaps it might properly come
on first.—( Hear.)
Mr. WYNN then rose and said, in conformity with the
notice he had given, he had to submit a motion to the
House for a new writ for the borough of Southwark.
He hoped the subject would by no means be viewed
as a party question, but as a subject in which the
House at large was interested, and on which they
were bound to come to a decision upon the best possi-
ble grounds. it had been suggested that a Committee
should be moved for, but he did not think that was the
proper course, as the opinion of the Committee would not be
and as the question arose upon
us Acts of Parliament, he was in-
enthoehfitovtuhasreeio'House might properly take coeni-
ctbbliinendecidonngtsotortuhncinttikho
flcc of Hear, hear.) At the same time he felt very
great objection to any delay which was not absolutely ne-
cessary in the decision of this question, because he ob
served the lion. Member opposite (Mr. Harvey), and
that Hon. Member was in a delicate situation, as, under
the Act of Queen Anne, he was exposed to penalties of
5001 each for every vote he gave; and if, on the other
hand, he did not vote, the borough of Southwark
was pro (auto disfranchised. If there were doubts enter-
tained, which it was thought a Committee only could remove.
he ( Mr. W.) would not press for a decision; but accord-
ing to his judgment the House would best consult the in-
terests of the lion. Member's constituency, and indeed of
the lion. Member himself, by coming to a prompt decision,
and as the subject had been so long mooted, he thought every
Member had been able to make up his mind. New, by the
Act of Queen Ann, any person who accepts an office of prof,
under the Crown, vacates his seat ; and by the Act of
King William and Queen Mary, any Member of the
fieuse of Commons is prohibited from " directly or
indirectly, either by himself or deputy, farming er
letting or managing any sums of money, or duties, 01
other advantages granted to their M ijesties by this Act, or
which hereafter may be granted by any Act of Parliament."
There was also the Act 15th of George 11., directing
that any person who shall be a Deputy or Clerk,
in any offices therein enumerated, among others, the
offices of her Mjesty's principal Secretaries of State
or the Commissioners of Hackney Carriages. It ap-
peared to him (Mr. Wynn), that under these Acts, the
lion. Member (Mr. Harvey's) seat had been vacated.
The words of the Act were, that any person who may be
a Member of this House, who should accept an office of
profit under the Crown, should cease to be a Member from
that period.—( Hear, hear.) It might be attempted to
be answered that this was not an office under the C. own,
inasmuch as the Crown did not appoint directly to the
office ; but the appointment took place through the Secre-
tary, lie (Mr. Wynn) contended the appointment
was an office under the Crown, notwithstanding the
appointment might take place through the Secretary.
He might quote a variety of cases in support of this opinion,
but he would content himself with mentioning one instance.
which was a very frequent occurrence in this House, and
which must be in the recollection of every Hon. Member.
He meant the appointment to the office of Steward of the
Chiltern Hundreds. The Stewards of the Chiltern
Hundreds were not appointed directly by the Crown, but
they were appointed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The Chancellor of the Exchquer. appointed persans
to the office of the Stewardship of the Chiltern
Hundreds, with a salary of 20/. a-year, which salary was
never asked for or accepted, and yet it ryes invariably held
that the acceptance of the office of Steward of the Chil-
tern Hundreds vacated the seat in that House. He was
aware that there were a variety of offices the acceptance
of which did not vacate a seat in that House. Brat there
were subjects of a special exemption from the operation
of the Act. The office of Secretary to the Treasury, of
Secretary to the Admiralty, and of Under- Secretary of
State, all these, at the time of the passing of the Act,
were in no degree places under the Crown. But
they were ;places 'dependent on an individual. The
Secretary to the 'Treasury was at that time Secre-
tary to the Lord High Treasurer ; the Secretary of the
Admiralty was at that time the Secretary to the Lord
High Admiral ; and the Under- Secretaries to this day are
called Under-Secretaries to the Secretary of State; as,
for instance, the Under- Secretary to the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, and not the Under- Secretary
of State. They were in fact Under- Secretaries to in-
dividuals. It was not necessary to argue this point
further, inasmuch as these offices were especially exempted
from the operation of the statute of George 11., by which
all other clerks, holding offices under the Crown, were
rendered incapable of retaining their seats in Parliament.
It is true that the Secretary to the Commissioners for
managing the affairs of India is not obliged to vacate
kis seat in consequence of his appointment. But it has been
thought fit to make this the matter of special exemption
by Act of Parliament. It has been specialty provided, that
the acceptance of this office shall not vacate a seat.
It was necessary, therefore, to consider whether the appoint-
ment proceeded from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or
from whether it proriseeded from the Commissioners of
the Treasury, or in some manner specially directed as in
the present case, that the Commissioners of the Treasury
should settle and fix the salary. The next ground on
which it was proposed that the charge should be defended,
was, that no salary had been annexed to the situation by
the Crown. But when we looked at the constitution of
the office, it was expressly provided that it should be lawful
fur the Commissioners of the Treasury to direct such sa-
lary to be paid, together with any money which might
arise from any duty under the care of the party. It
seemed, then, there was a duty to be fulfilled by the
Commissioners of the Treasury, for they all knew that " it
shall be lawful" were words imposing a duty ; and he ap-
prehended that while -he continued to hold the office, if
the Treasury did not fix the salary, it was competent for the
Hon. Gentleman to resign. But he believed when power
was given under the words referred to, they were bound
to exercise their authority. But it might be said by the Hon.
Gentleman that he had not received any salary, bet this, in
his opinion was not a point of any difficulty, for it was un-
derstood that the recept of any emolument or profit
equally disqualified him, but it must be so
decided by the authority of that House.
It seemed to him that when Parliament constituted an uffik e,
and fixed that a salary should be paid, it was an office with
a salary of which the individual had no right to divest
himself. It had all the qualities of an office, and there
was nothing to prevent the individual, whether he
claimed it or not from accepting the Chiltern Hundreds,
for the individual who last received the appointment of
Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds did afterwards
take the salary of 101. for the half-year, which
elapsed before Parliament met again, and before the
office was bestowed on another person. At all events
it secured to him, according to the provisions of the
Act, that any person accepting the office must be held to
vacate his scat. This certainly was a new office of profit,
created since the reign of Queen Anne, and quite un-
, tenable with a seat in Parliament. (Hear, hear.)
If the arguments were to prevail that a person disabled
by accepting office from sitting or acting as a Member of
the House of Commons, did not vacate his seat if he re-
signed the office before the meeting of Parliament, any office
might be granted to any individual for six months ; provided
Parliament was not sitting he might receive six months'
salary, and then resign the office immediately before the
meeting of Parliament. Besides that, the uniform practice,
since the passing the Act of Queen Anne, had been to
issue a new writ immediately on parties accepting the
Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds, just the same
as if they had accepted an office which, under the se-
cond, clause of the statute, vacated the seat. If
an individual accepted the office of the Chiltern Hun-
dreds during the recess, although the new writ could not
be moved until the meeting of Parliament, although the
party had so completely vacated his seat that he would be
eligible for any other place in Great Britain, and that had
been repeatedly done. He need only refer to the case of
Lord Dudley, Is ho vacated his seat during the recess by
the acceptance of the office of Steward of the Chiltern
Hundreds, and who was afterwards elected Member for
Worcestershire. The Honourable Baronet the Mem-
ber for Cumberland also vacated his seat during the
recess, and was afterwards elected for Cumberland.
From the time, therefore, of the acceptance of office, the
seat was vacated, and the party, to all intents and pur-
poses, had ceased to be a Member. The Act of William
and Mary was simply a prohibitory statute, without any
penalty. He did not know that there was any precedent
exactly in point; he did not know any case where a Mem•
ber had accepted an office, at the same time declaring
that he would not accept any salary that was attached to
it. He, however, thought that that made no difference. It
was the acceptance of the office that vacated the seat. He
had acted upon grounds of public duty alone, and even if
that some decision should be come to on the case. He had
the
nHactuatedHouse
o should
nnoo t agreepersonalfeeling whatever, neither had
he acted from any political feeling, for it was a
well ascertained fact that should the House agree with him,
the constituents of the Hun. Member were perfectly
ready to re-elect him. He would therefore move that a
new writ be issued for the borough of Southwark in the
room of D. W. Harvey, Esq., who had vacated his seat
by the acceptance of the office of Registrar of Hackney
Coaches.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that probably
the Hon. Member for Southwark would wish to address
the House before any other Member stated his sentiments
upon the occasion.
Mr. W YNN believed the rule of the House was, that a
Member should withdraw while there was any discussion
going on which affected his seat.
Mr. PRYME could state a case exactly in point which
occurred in 1833. A writ was then moved for in the
room of George Prynie, Esq.. on account of his accepting
office. The motion having been moved and seconded, he
stated what he bad to say upon the matter and withdrew.
The SPEAKER said the case stated by the Hon. Mem-
ber was one exactly in point, though he was not aware of
any rule of the House on the subject.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY bad not one word to say against
the motion. On the contrary, he was quite prepared to
second a motion that every gentleman in that House should
forthwith go before his constituents.—(A laugh.) He was
one of those who thought that the business would go on
much better for the country
if gentlemen were obliged to
face their constituents rather oftener. He could not, how-
ever, allow the present opportunity to pass without stating
to the House that he did not at all agree with what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was something
strange that the Right Hon. Gentleman, with all his un-
not find one single case where a Member of that
equalled knowledge of the precedents of that House, could

Hetiso had given up six months of his time when
other Members were recruiting themselves from the
fatigues of the last Session without receiving any salary.
It was a most alarming precedent undoubtedly—(A laugh)
for if it were once established that the Members of that
House were to labour gratuitously, and if it were done by
him, he had no doubt that he would incur the di: pleasure
of the House, and especially of that portion, which was not
a small one, who received large sums of money for cloiag
nothing, and many of whom put forward their best
plea, that they had never done anything.—(A laugh.) Ho
ai sorry that the course be had adopted, which he had
done for the purpose of saving trouble to the House, was
not acceptable to them. When he submitted his case to
the lawyers he found that there was considerable difference
of opinion between them ; when he found that the highest
law authority in that House entertained considerable doubts
upon the subject, he at once yielded, and in order to save
trouble to the House, he gave up the office. He was sorry
that the Right Hon. Gentleman had argued the case upon
such narrow grounds. He had confined himself exclu-
sively to cold, dry, precedents, not one word of the great
constitutional principle of the danger of Members sitting in
that House, either expecting reward from the Government
or in the actual receipt of money. and of course subser
vient to the Government. lam surprised that the Right
Hon. Gentleman did not propose to bring in a Bill to put
an end to such a system. He admitted that there were
many offices that were exempted from the operation of the
statute of Anne ; and yet these offices were frequently
the subject of expectation, and votes, speeches, and si-
levee might occasionally be the consequences of such ex-
pectation. He differed from all the subjects brought for-
ward by the Hon. Gentleman, and he even ventured to
question the Right Hon. Gentleman's law, that this is an
office that came within the operation of the
Statute of Anne.—( Hear.) It should be recollected
tle,t that statute was a highly penal statute, inflicting no
les; a penalty than incapacity to sit in Parliament, and
then fo: e, like all penal statutes, the most rigid construc-
tion should be placed upon it. He must contend that
there was a considerable difference between an office, the
appointment of which was by patent under the royal sign
manual, and on which a stamp duty of considerable amount
%,aa paid, and another appointment not under sign manual,
but under the signature of one of the officers of the Crown,
and to which a lesser stamp duty was attached. He would
call the attention of Right Hon. Gentleman to a return
which had been made to this House twelve months after the

paFq,ing of the act in question. This return would be
found in the journals of the House : it was ordered that an
aceaunt be laid before this House, "An account of all
ofliees under the Crown created since 20th of October,
1705." An office granted by the Crown is an office that must
bey vacated by the crown ; an office appointed by the
s,cretary of State is an office that must be vacated
by the Secretary cf State, and by the Secretary of State
only; and if :he appointment proceeded from the Croton,
by a document bearing the Royal sign-manual, it can only
be cancelled by a document of a precisely similar nature.
And he should also submit, that it they could anticipate
such a proceeding or document, that an instrument from
Crown itself could not vitiate or repeal an order cr
nyointment made by the Secretary of State. By the
Sycretary of State was this appointment made during dis-
cretion ; and in the exercise of his discretion he could
cancel or withdraw it ; but he submitted that it would nut
be competent for any other power, regal or political, ex-
cept the creating power, to cancel that deed. Then it
night be said that it was unfitting that any Member of
this House should hold an office at the discretion of a pub-
lie functionary, who might confer it or retract it as the
individual might adapt his course to the wishes of Go-
vernment, and it was, therefore, with strong feelings in
his mind, that he did hope the Right Honourable
Gentleman would be prepared to put this question upon
a broader and upon a higher ground—not indeed
that he should be pleased to hear any one propose the ex-
tension of the principle of disqualification, because, on the

. •
contrary, he should like to hear a proposal for the extinc-
tion of all disqualification, but that the payment of a salary
out of the public Treasury should vacate the scat of him
who occupies it, he being re-eligible if his constituents
continue their confidence in him ; and it was well known
to the Noble Lord, to whom he was indebted for the of-
fica, that that was the course which he intended to pursue.
He stated from the beginning, that if it appeared to the
11 'else of Commons this was not a disqualifying office,
aid that it was competent for him to retain it with-
out vacating his seat, that it was his intention to
have it moved on the first night of the Session that
be might accept the Chiltern Hundreds, and go to
his constituents on the appointments on the broad and
c,,nstitutional ground, that having accepted office, and in-
curred, as his constituents might think, a political
obligation, they should have the opportunity of expressing
their opinions on the course he had taken ; and this was
tic situation in which every individual in this House ought
to be placed by law, who bad any participation whatever in
the public funds.—( Hear, hear.) When, therefore, (con-
tieued Mr. Harvey) the Right Hon. Gentleman assures
me that this proceeding has no connexion whatever with
politics, or parties, or person, it is a large tax upon my
credence—(Laughter)—it is a very large demand upon my
crAulity, because first of all when we hear on every side
fern the speeches, and see by the papers of the party that
there is an universal reaction throughout the country—that
the constituencies in every borough are panting for an op-
portunity to record that change of opinion—that there is
net a vacancy which can take place, fo. which:there is not a
Conservative candidate prepared to takethe field—( Cheers)
—am surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he
considers what princely resources are at the command
of that party, and when further he considers that the hum-
ble individual now addressing the House has not concealed
that even the duty of the office, uninviting as it was, and
its emolument, was acceptable to him, to turn round
ith gravity, and say, though we know the whole country
is running mad with Conservatism—that there is not a
hustings where a Radical or a Reformer dare show himself
with a chance of success—that he should coolly say to me,
You may go to the borough of Southwark, where you
will be re-elected without trouble, without expense, and
without inconvenienee."—( Cheers and laughter.) This is
svtei rt yu
etnrtuse,
wa sh
or e gfua
lrdlys
at hpep r ge
er
aatte c ot,
the
es t i
kt
ne
dn cn ieesss,
oafn dt,
the
yßei
go nil;
Hon. Gentleman, are quite prepared to reinstate me in my
situation without any expense to myself, let who will on the
other side, or from the Carlton Club, present himself.—
( Laughter.) I venture to think it is not so divested
of personal considerations, because, why is it the Right
Hon. Gentleman has been with his vigilance slumbering
upon so many occasions of late? There have been some
instances which he might have brought under the notice of
the House, of a nature much more suspicious than the pre-
, sent, because the appointment was known—the individual
was known—the exact amount of his emoluments wore also
known ; and though it may be said discretion implies an
-arbitrary exercise of power, I will venture to say that no
leader of a party would dare to discharge an individual
holding this or a similar office, who did discharge the duties
of the office to the satisfaction of those for whom it
w as created, and I do not hesitate to say that if I held that
office at the present moment, I should give my vote, and
express my sentiments with precisely the same freedom as
before I held it.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) But it seems
now there is a different interpretation given to it—
( Ilear)—and I ought to congratulate myself that I
have given up the office, because if Honourable Gentlemen
opposite should be on this side the House as their eager ad-
vocates expect, I should like to know the value of my appoint-
ment when I should be on the other side in constant
opposition to them ?—( Cheers.) Am I to understand in
that case my appointment would have been very pre-
carious, and that in the exercise of a sound discretion on
the part of the Secretary of State, I should receive a notifi-
cation that I might retire from my office ?—( Laughter.)
Why, this is a species of independence which it is fitting
public men should understand.—( Hear, hear.) But I was
observing that the Right Honourable Gentleman was
rather lax in his vigilance, because he contends that the
acceptance of an office which is a disqualification, works as
a disqualification even though the salary be fore-
gone, and I admit there is great weight in what
he says, unless by some provision or other it is
guarded against. I admit if a Member accepting
office after the prorogation of Parliament, holding it for
six months, not accepting the salary, but exercising some
very enviable patronage, and deriving indirect and inci-
dental emolument, if he could say just before the assembling
of Parliament he had resigned? A great deal of mischief
might be done, and still more, if the party could hold his
place for any continuance of time, renouncing his salary
for the exercise of the patronage belonging to it. In-
deed it would be an alarming doctrine to that portion of the
House which may be called Radical, because if Gentle-
men of large estates, and of political importance could
say, " Oh l I don't mind about emoluments of the Chan-
c .11or of the Exchequer; I don't care about the salary
belonging to either of the Secretaries of State ; five or
six thousand pounds will be of little importance to me,
but I have cousins, and a large circle of subordinate rela-
tives. I should like to crowd Spmerset House, and
Downing-street, with some few hundreds of them—( Loud
laughter and cheers)—and that species of family patronage
is acceptable to me." That would be a very dangerous
doctrine against which few who have small means would
be justified in protesting. But the Right Hon. gentle-
man has not exercised that vigilance which his situation as
guardian of our Parliamentary technicalities might lead
one to expect he would exercise.—( Laughter.) On the mo-
tion of the Hon. and Gallant Colonel ( Sibthorp) opposite,
a return was ordered, in which some 39 or 40 Commissions
were ennumerated—the names of those who fill them were
stated, and the salaries. I will allude to two or three of
them, for the purpose of calling the attention of the
House to those Members of Parliament who hold ap-
pointments in these Commissions, but against whose names
is the statement that they have foregone, or declined the
salary. Now it strikes me that a temporary Commission
stealing quietly through the offices of the Government,
is scarcely likely to be dragged to notice, except in times of
peace, when a military Member is unusually vigi-
lant.—( Great laughter.) But for that species of
Parliamentary interference.: perhaps we should never
have had this document on the table at all. There is
something peculiarly silent and stealthy about a Commis-
sion which does not belong to an Act of Parliament, the
clauses of which are debated openly in this House. In
the County-rates Commission, after enumerating many
other offices, there are the names of Thomas Law Hodges,
and Charles Shaw Lefevre. Then there is this note
under the head of salary allowances, &c.—" The Parlia-
mentary Commissioners decline to receive a salary,"__
Why, declining to receive a salery implied they might have
taken it if they pleased, and I am surprised this never came
under the notice of the Right Hon. Gentleman. But,
perhaps, as the Commissions are not sufficiently old to
find their way into the journals of the House, they are not
worth reading.—( Laughter.) So, again I find in the
Commission for the regulation of the Irish fisheries—there
is a salary attached there which is to be paid when they
shall have reported. That is rather an awkward tempta-
tion to protraction if the amount of their salaries is to be
regulated according to the time they may take to draw
up their report.—( Laughter. ) Attached to that
is the name of C. A. Walker, and there is a note that
Mr. Walker from the commencement has declined to re-
ceive any remuneration. Now, this is all very creditable
to these gentlemen ; but if the doctrine be true, as stated by
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that the acceptance of
an office, or the acceptance of a Commissionership, is that

which works the evil, I am a little surprised, giving him full
credit for the assurance that not the remotest personal feel-
ing induced him to make this motion, that this Commission
sh Add have ire ipect his attention.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Then, as to varie'is Acts of Parliament, and which have
passed .his House with disabling clauses. Perhaps the I
Right Hen. Gentleman will explain whence it is they have
been inserted. Now, for instance, take the Charity Com-
mission, consisting of eighteen or twenty Commissioners
appeinted by the Crown—that is, the Commission, is ap-
pointed by the Crown, but the parties who are to sustain it
are appointed by the Treasury. There is a clause ex-
pressly inserted, that no Charity Commissioner shall be eli-
gible to sit in Parliament. So, again, in more recent times
with respect to Poor Law Commissioners. They are also
appointed by the Treasury, and there is a clause in that
Act disqualifying the Commissioners from sitting in Par-
liament.—( Hear, hear.) But there is this very extraordi-
nary circumstance belonging to that Act ; that while it de-
clares the three Chief Commissioners should be disqualified,
it (lees not go on to say that all the other officers, such as
the Secretary, and so on, connected with the Commission,
shall be, and therefore I apprehend it would be competent
for the Secretary of the Commission to sit in the House,
though he is receiving a salary of 1,2001. a-year at the
discretion of the Commissioners who appointed, and who
are expressly disqualified.—( Hear.) The same with regard
to the officers—the Registrar, and Deputy Registrar of the
Bankrupt Court--they also were appointed by the Tee-
sury, and there was the disabling clause in the statute
constituting that Court. Now, if the opinion of the Right
Hon. Gentleman be borne out ie law all these clauses
were entirely superfluous, because he contends that
the appointment to these offices being in the Treasury,
and the other great political functionaries, they would he
disqualified from sitting in this House. Then I ask the
Right I-lon. Gentleman whence it is that those clauses
have been inserted, except for the purpose of guarding
against that construction which I humble submit would
oibernise have been put upon those appointments, viz.
that they were not granted by the Crown but were the ap-
pointments of great officers under the Crown; and
that bears the distinction I am endeavouring to impress
on the House—not for my own sake, because it has no-
thing to do with me—the office I held I have resigned, and
my successor has been appoint cd,but at the same time I think
while we are discussing this subject and our attention is call-
ed to it, that it is important the law of the case should be
defined.—( Hear, hear.) I will not conceal frsun the
House that I should have been content to have held that
office, but I am one who thinks that it may be said of this
[louse, as it is sometimes said •of our Courts of Law, that
there is one law for the rich and another for the poor—

that there is one law for party men and those who arc
powerfully sustained by party men, and that there is an-
other law for those who hive no such connexions or asso-
ciations.—( Hear, hear.) I have little doubt that if this
office had been conferred on some second or third
class gentleman, connected with rank, station, and power,
in this House—l don't care on which side, he may have
sat, particularly when the Right lion. Gentleman said
this motion was unconnected with party feeling, I say if it had
been conferred on such an individual, I doubt very much
whether this question would have been agitated at all : and
if it had been, the thing would have bren passed over
lightly; it would have been said, " Is he not responsible?
—what Secretary of State dares discharge that man because
he acts honestly but speaks disagreeably ? He gives us
as much labour as he receives salary, and he is independent
of the Government, and the Government is independent of
him." Ido net think my place would have been worth the
tithe of a farthing if this matter had been submitted to the
House as a party question. My experience confirms that opi-
nion,and I will mention one instance. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was kind enough ten years ago, under the guidance
of that same anxiety to protect the purity of this House,
to move that no individual Member of this House should
be in any way concerned in the business of this House.
Unfortunately, though the Right Hon. Gentleman ms-ant
nothing personal, that motion had a very serious per-
sonal application. —( Hear, hear, and laughter.) But when
the same question was brought forward some time ago,
more or less affecting a gentleman on the other side of the
House, nothing was said except in a whisper to me, " How
rancorously they acted towards you, and how silent and
indifferent they are towards the other."—( Cheers.) It is
this impression, and tWs strong conviction on my mind,
that leads me to proclaim to the public what I really feel
to be the case, that no man can expect justice in this House
who happens to be unconnected with any of the great
parties in it.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Hon.
Members will recollect how the House acted in the case of

that Committee. A Committee was also appointed three
or four years ago to investigate the most monstrous monopoly
that ever existed in any country, and which had pressed with
the most tyrannical severity upon myself. A Committee was
appointed, and a Report of that Committee was laid before
the House ; but nothing was done, and no Hon. Gentle.
man has ever asked what is to be done. But another Com-
mittee has sat since then—a close Committee, which ex-
cluded the public, and which had come to a resolution ex.
pressly excluding them. Why has there not been a Report
from that Committee, from which some Hon. Gentlemen
retired, era account of its private and exclusive and secret
character. Not twenty-four hours after that Committee
had terminated its sittings, the gallant individual who was
the subject of that inquiry was decorated with orders, and
since then he has been clothed with military station in our
colonies abroad.—( Hear, and cheers.) I say, then, that
there is a great feeling of prejudice and injustice in some
of their proceedings.—( Hear.) It may be asked, with
these strong sentiments in my mind, why did I not at
once resign-my seat, and take my chance of re-election ?
I will tell you why. If I had retained my office, and va-
cated my scat and gone to my constituents, some gentle-
man might have stood forward and said, " I know I
have no chance in this borough : all I ask is that 50 or
100 electors should give their votes to me." And
I should have found it nailed on the hustings, and
placarded all over the Borough, that all the
votes given for Mr. Harvey were thrown away. " He may
have 3,000 or 4006 votes, and I may have but 100; but I
shall present a petition against his return, on the ground
that he has accepted a disqualifying office. I shall go
before a Committee, and take my chance that that Commit.
tee may declare that he is disqualified"—that the man with
with 3,000 votes is not duly qualified to represent the
Borough, while he who has been scouted out of it may
take his seat I—( Loud cheers.) It was impossible I should
have so treated my constituents, and thrown them into
hands which I knew of all things was most abhorrent to them.
It is, therefore, allow me to say, of grave importance that
these matters should be set at rest ; and although,
as I have said before, I have no personal
feeling on the subject, and I would as soon a writ were
issued for the borough to-night as not, because I know
upon whom I rely, and the manner in which I shall be
protected, yet, at the same time, as the subject requires
consideration and ought to receive it, and if the Right
Hon. the Attorney-General chooses to move that Presi-
dents be searched, and that a report be made from a Com-
mittee on the subject, to that Ido not object. I neither
assent nor dissent from it. But if the case be gone into
at all, let it be gone into in the fair spirit of inquiry. Let
it not be said that by some technical word this particular
case has been guarded against, but let us come to the
resolution that any one who accepts any public office,
paid for out of the public revenue, shall vacate his seat,
and be compelled to go to his constituents. At all events,
I do ask the House not to come to a division until they
have further information before them, unless they come to
a unanimous decision, because the Right Hon. Baronet
has intimated, that taking part in the deliberations of the
House exposes parties to penalties. ' This is a grave
matter, although I don't apprehend that such is the fact,
even if the Right Hon. Gentleman's law be right, because
I am not sitting here while I hold an office.—( Hear.)
At the same time this intimation may readily be seized on,
and may bring about inconvenience, which I am quite sure
the Right Hon. Baronet is anxious to avoid to any one in
this House.—( Hear.) Unless, therefore, the House
comes to an unanimous resolution on the subject, I hope a
Committee of Privileges will be appointed, and report
fully upon it. Then recollect you are to inquire not whe-
ther the circumstances which lam placed in is a disqualifi-
cation, but whether the office itself is so disqualifying for
the reasons I have already stated. I have stated that I
took the opinion of eminent counsel, and on precisely the
same cese, word for.. word, as that submitted to the other
legal gentlemen; and this is the opinion of that gentleman
which I am sure those of the legal profession will recog-
nise as no mean authority—l mean Mr. Rogers, who has
written a book on the law of elections, which has been very
acceptable in the eyes of those who are Judges of its me-
rits. This gentleman has stated his opinion in these words :
" I am of opinion that although the Registrar of Metropo-
litan Public Carriages may be and is a new office, yet that
it is not under the Crown within the provisions of the Sta.
tutes of Anne, so as to render Mr. Harvey incapable of
sitting and acting as a Member of the House of Commons,
on ncapable of being elected a Member in case of a disso-
lution, and having come to this conclusion upon the ope-
ration of Section xxv. I am still more strongly of opinion
that he is not the holder of any office under the 25th Sec-

tion, which vacates his scat in-Parliament." This opinion
it will be observed, is rather remarkable, most
unusual as coming from a lawyer, for its clearness—
( Laughter)—its freedom from ambiguity ; but it may
be asked if I have such confidence in this opinion of
Mr. Rogers, why I do not act upon it. I will
inform the House of my reason for not acting upon
this opinion : willing to make myself perfectly secure, and
having made up my mind in the event of my retaining the
office to resign my seat and appeal again to my constitu-
ents, I put this further case to Mr. Rogers—whether
he would advise a candidate not successful at the poll to
present a petition against m y return on the ground of my
holding an office which disqualified me from sitting in
Parliament, for I felt that although many thousand electors
might record their suffrages in my favour, and although
my opponent might poll a very small number, yet if a case
came before this House, bearing in mind as I do what
took place night after night on the appointment of
Election Committees during the last Session, how
the benches were crowded, with what shouts of
rejoicing every favourable name was received—(Tre
mendous cheering)—and with what shrinking of dread
the announcement of an unfavourable name was accom-
panied,l I own I did not feel desirous of exposing myself
to the chance of this contingency. Mr. Rogersg.ohesad o on to
say, in reference to this question, that although he
law of the
htex-
pressed an opinion, perhaps too clearly, a
case, yet he was by no means prepared to say
to
that, if tcon-
sulted by tl:e opposing candidate,
Lau
he should not
of "Hear,
otadvise him
to give notice of disqualification—( d
cries
hear")--and take his chance of a
Committee (Cheers
and laughter)—more especially as this might be done at
l had to expect from that
no great expense. I knew
whati vosite to me, and whose
great body which is arrayed
,- mischief and in -•
great power consists in prornotin "
prevent-
ing good. I knew that they would come down in a more
compact body—as oneman—on
that occasion. I cannot
forget either how many Hon. Gentlemen on this side of the
Harvey' last Session, would stop and
say to me, ~ Goo
House, as they passedd God, e l
it cannot possibly
Le true, what we hit
ave heard. Do you know
it is reported that
is the intention of the
Laughter)
Ministers not to place your name on.
,the
"Committee of
.
the ['ensign List. I really cannot believe it "—(Laughter)
I found that many of these gentlemen who had
hirdexypertessed their commiseration to me, Were among the
thus
of those who, when my case came on, voted to pre-

(I YAW') t'
vent my going on that Committee.—(Cheers An— "be
ter. ) flaying stated so much, I leave my' ease in olf
hands of the House, being quite prepared to
egain in the lk,nds of my constituents. trust mys -
The Honourable Gentleman then left the Hou le arah ist
loud clie,rs.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would, in a yr try fe wd
words, put the House in possession of the advice be 113
found it necessary to give upon the present question. _,..13°;
fore proceeding with his observations he would se ty
notwithstanding the sneers and powerful sarcasm )1. tae
Honourable Gentleman who had just retired, the ease
would not be viewed or decided upon any party grow stilt."'"
( Cheers.) For the character and honour of the Ho ase, it
was necesttry and most important that the case s tbould
be temperately and calmly discussed. There was no .dotibt
but that there was a difference of opinion heiweenthe,couti-
sel to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred hss case.
The first question which arose was whether the of is e His
cepted by the lion. Member was a disqualifying one. 111
opinion was that it was a disqualifying office. Tb
ap.
pointment was not, it was true, from the Crown,. but it
held during the pleasure of an officer who himself held
office during the pleasure of the Crown. Then epic
was urged that because the Hon. Member took n se lar„Y
that therefore he was not disqualified, but in his opts
to
that made no difference. Tlivre was a salary atta abet'
the office, and if the Hon. Member were refused it. bee
(the Attorney-General) had no doubt the Cc ort e`
Queen's Bench would grant a mandamus upon the ,Rei°,_t*
Another question arose upon this part of the case. Tee
in it
Honourable Member had not given up his salsrY
unconditionally—had he done so unconditionally he might
have been bound by it ; he was not so now, and t! terefore
the salary still belonged to the office. These v rere his
opinions upon these points—others he knew he' .cl. other
opinions upon them, and the House had to dccid .e. lue
41st Geo. 111. made two closes of cases which di sq Uftlified
from a seat in that House. One prevented a. Metnlier from
sitting and voting, otherwise they were liable to a. penalty
Another class were those who accepted office Una tediatell
and directly from the Crown—the seats of suer/ became
vacant from the mere fact of such appointment. It was
expressly enacted under those circumstances that the seat
should Gecome vacated, and that a new writ shot ild issue'
Now although the office which was held: by Mr'
Harvey was an office under the Crown, :so as to
be included in the 170 enactment of 6th Anne, h e •must say
fromthat it was not an office held directly and immed iatelY
the Crown, because he was not appointed by t he Crcirb"
but by the Secretary of State. As far as he 'the Attor-
ney- General) was aware this point had t ;ever been
decided before, and such being the case, it w,
a proper
question for the consideration of a Select .Ccmnlittee:th
Under all the circumstances, therefore, he wottl(i suggest
that a Select Committee should be appointed, off which e
Right Hon. Gentleman who had brought for ward the
motion, and the Right Hon. Baronet, the nhamber for
Tamworth, if he would take the duty upon hime .if, should
be Members. He would therefore conclude by a oving that
a Select Committee for the purpose of inquirit g into the
appointment of Mr. Harvey as Registrar of Hackney'
carriages be appointed, and that that Committee should be
directed to report whether or not Mr. Harvey, by the
acceptance of that office, had vacated his seat for tue

borough of Southwark.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said his advice, or rather his
opin:on—because he did not presume to give bis advice--
his opinion was decidedly in favour of grantii tg- the RN'
position bObre the House—( Hear, hear)—and' that being
so, he should not say a word to prejudice the question in
any way. Ho was hound to say, in justice t his Ho%
Friend near him, that he had intimated to him, that if any
other person proposed a Committee he sho, lid at onee
accede to it. If it .should be the opinion of • the House
that a Committee should he provided, when it seemed to
be, as this was a very grave matter, it would ti le premature
to come to a discussion upon it at present.—(Hcar, hear-)
It would be much better to seaich the precede] its, and. to
permit the discussion to come on perfectly atbd unree n,-
dic.xlly after those precedents had been seat ched. rike
should not say a word about notices, but he thought u
might assure the Houre that there was not a pe sty feeling
on the side of the House on which he was.
Mr. WYNN certainly had great pleasure agreeilg
to the appointment of the Committee, and he should ab-
stain from making any observations on some ret aarks tha'
had been made in reference to him in the ab Berke° of the
lion. Member who had made those remarks.

Appointment of the Committee agreed to, !Abe
Lord J. RUSSELL did not know whether Wu— ad
the wish of the House that the Committee should he n,a,11/,ie
now, or that the nomination should stand over tio
House met again ? e the
Mr. HU:VIE thought it would be better 'so have t
Committtee named at once, but we did not collect t
it was named.
REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS' BILIJ.
On the motion of the ATTORNEY.- GENERAL, the Beg" a
tration of Electors' Bill was read a secOnd time, and ordere
to A
be comitted.
shortm conversation took place across Ple table hetteeibi.l
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman and Colonel Poe
thorp, but from the confusion which then exited
in
House, we could not distinctly hear what transpired.
REGISTERS OF BIRTHS, &c., adbig
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the name re
of the Registers of Births, &c. Bill. offer a
Mr. CRESSWELL said he did not wisb tobe•
word against the Bill. Having had the best ree,rtarable
fore them they could procure, there was very cvnsiue be
assurance afforded that all the registries R 'ere to But
made by persons who had cognizance of the sultject.
he would take the opportunity of saying a wer"..o
specting the working of the General Registrajdid
Bill. The registrar who registered births and deaths A °
o
not procure the names from his own personal kncrol:7
of the facts, but obtained them from the parents n' ies
patties, or the owners of the houses in which the Pe,ri-b
lived, which might be sent to him in writing, an.
entered them. It was clear that the registrar wag ',,,-bost
to constant imposition from such a system, and tihem---
serious inconvenience Might arise therefrom, In 'l,:n
chester and other populous places it had airead.Y ;iese
found that for the purpose of cheating there had bealia,
entries sent in, and there had been one or two preset-be
Cons in consequence. He hoped, therefore, that all that
means possible would be taken to counteract any evil
might ariseJ. this resect. been
LordRUSSELL said, that where there had; o.
known to be any imposition practised, he had directed P;00
secutions in those cases. He hardly knew how the tOL':,
could be entirely guarded against ; but with that el
i,"
every precaution possible should be taken be
The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to'
committed.

Mr. HALVES F
roseF_ IR
tNol AmTe
vIeO
tNh e
sBILL.eee
nd
Affirm-ti Bill.
aon He hoped his motion would meet with
theti general approbation of the House. The Bill was f°
ie abolition of oatha, and the substitution of a declaration,
reading of the
by persons who had conscientious 1 The Frill°
scrup lee. akerSe
pie had been acted upon in several cases. The wn • a
the Moravianthis le
s, the Separatists, had met with the,
duleen ; and there were a great naany uwbo
e
Wereindividualsperhaps
who belonged to no particular sect,
members of the Church, or, perhaps, 111,,htstt
bars
the of less favoured institutions ; and they asked, 'ero.
same indulgence might be extended to le,oo
on
nc might here state the progress of legislat•%d
this subect, and the House would see that there n'
ture,
been a steady • •
inclination, on theofthe Legas-s -
part
trrohgcrant the indulgence to persons of conscientious serlhlraend
s first Act passed on the subject was in the 13t" to
14th of Charles 11. The effect of that enactment `osao
puiii;sh most severely all parties who refused to takewbo
oat He had the penalties extended not only to thosoe.aers
refused to take an oath, but to those who persuaded ttas
not to take one; and the penalty of transportation "
even enforced. By the Ist of William and
that Act
greater latitude of toleration was allowed. By tre-larsl
the Quakers were allowed to give testimony en
tion; but still their testimony was not admitted in c."O bola
cases, nor were they allowed to sit on Juries, or A, and
offices of emolument. The ith and Bth of Wi",tourea
Mary, stated the peculiar hardships the Quakers lavogled
under from those penalties ; the penalties were repel to
altogether, and a greater degreedegree of
that sect for a limited time. The Ist of Geo. Made tibed
indulgences perpetual. The Bth of Geo. L pressFricred
new forms of declaration, but those forms were eon
objectionable. By the 22d Geo. 11. many doubter
remedied; and in this state the law remained for
svio's
eighty years. By the 9th of Geo. IV. the Mer ople
were acknowledged by Parliament as a class of Piodel-
entitled to this indulgence ; and by that statute the ado
gence to Quakers and Moravians of making an affireii as
a declaration was made legal in all cases, civil as sceAries
criminal; but nevertheless, the disability to sit
014 the
or to hold places of emolument, was continued. vos,
3d and 4th of Will. IV. the Quakers and 1%100 tber
, 0
were put en the same footing, as to their rights, de d 5--
persons, and the indulgence was still further eXtencvloeers
that all persons who could say they had been 01.113 Y
were to be entitled to the indulgence and benefits clatal., his
Quakers. In the last Session a Bill was brought ill %re
Hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge. At that time a 'thei
secession took place from the original boa of Quakersoded
had become completely divided. Those who had ,eees of
from the original body had been disallowed the privilutd to
that body ; but by this Statute all the benefits intenne'coa,
be conferred on the Quakers were extended to the 5 to
ers as well as conferred upon those who had contiti.tice,isia,
be of the original sect. The whole tendency ef 1. bias on
tion on the subject had been to relax the restrictioe
this subjest., and he ( Mr. Hawes) trusted the Hay
eesscien-
willing still further to relieve the scruples of the centavo,
tious. In the House of Lords an objection had been of an
that such a Bill would tend to weaken the obligationvor it
oath. But it would in fact have just the contrary effect: :only
enabled conscientious men to take the oath in tnr ly it
form in whic tey considepublic generally red it bindine', at hat
was for the interest of the that
vorae
and conscientious men should not be placed in aless
situation in this respect than those who were regardA been
the obligation of an oath.--( Hear.) Again, it ha "of any
objected that such a Bill would place it in the power frompk,rson, from an improper motive, to claim exemptioa
an oath. But that objection was obviated by thisjto S.
vision, that to claim the objection a person must ge eee
Court of Justice, and there demand it deliberatelY, the
gistering his name, with the officers appointed to takeo, it
oaths of allegiance, andpaying the required fee. top '
the
was highly improbable that any person indifferent t
Ely owe
sanction of an oath would take all these steps.
hardship had been inflicted upon many
whichconscientions end
ex-
deserving men by the present state of the law,
among
eluded them frem a great number of offices--- 811
others, those of executor and administrator--an airing
places of emolument under the Crown—bY rer en'
an oath to be taken. Were not these persoA-and it
titled to the consideration of the House ? ""disaele
was his sole object to relieve them from the eon
vantages which their conscientious scruples entailed
ty
them. lie need not say that upon this subject no
1:1117,
feeling could be entertained ; and, without saYing. of
thing more, he would simply move the second reading
the Bill. must
GOULBURN said the Hon. Men.ber hiob
aware that there was a great part of tire "netrY owrt
ea.
felt strong objection to a measure, the real pun )
which was that every individual who chose to Pay' 33'