The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-20 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION

f ministration. The leader of a formidable Opposition, al-
tros t an overwhelming Opposition, thirsting for place and
r;-ver—(theers and laughter)—had moved an amend-
\
snent to the resolution of the Noble Lord. To be sure,
the Right Hon. Baronet did not move a vote of confidence
either in himself or his party—(Laughter)—but he went
Sue of his way to pay a compliment to the House of
Lirds--a compliment which he (Mr. Duncombe) did not
thirde that House dgaived, and which he was not wil-
ling' to pay it.—(r, hear.) Was this House pre.
pared to become, as it was formerly, a deputy House
of Lords.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet
seemed to theik that this House ought not to do anything
that had the appearance of questioning any of the proceed-
ings of Eliot Assembly. He did not believe there was an
individual of this House who questioned the undoubted
right of die House of Lords to institute any inquiry they
thenight proper into any crime, outrage, or peccadillo of
any men, woman, or child.—(Laughter)—in England,
Ireland, or Scotland ; but because they thought proper to
Institute such inquiry, was the House of Commons to be
told that it was not fur fear of offending some 53 noble in-
dividjals, to express an opinion upon that breach of the
Minlterial policy on which that factious attack had been
made l'—( Hear, hear.) 'The Hon. Baronet, the Member
for Pembroke, it his able and eloquent address, warned
*is House not to enter into a collision with the House of
Lords. He should like to know where was the Right
Mon. Baronet's prudence, in 1832, when the Reform
Dill was under discussion.—( Cheers.) But what was to be
done in the midst of all this scramble of faction ?
to the Right Hon. Baronet's Amendment he saw nothing
to Ighich he could assent. He wished to gain in this
sarefilible, something for the people—the Noble Lord's
resolution did not go far enough, and therefore he pro-
posed, in the event of the Right Hon. Baronet's amend-
;ete not taking effect, as an addition to the Noble Lord's
solution, the following words :—" And that it is also
expedient to effect such further reforms in the Represent-
ation of the people in Parliament, as shall conduce to their
containment, and to the security and welfare of the king-
dom at large.' This was in fact very much like what be
mimed on the address, but it came before the House
ithsles more auspicious circumstances, as no one now could
say that it was uneourteous to the Crown. He had
often heartl, Gentlemen in this House rejoice in the
title of Whigs, some of them pure old Whigs—he
shoald like to know was Mr. Fox a finality man ?—Did
he entertain the doctrines that were now put forth, that
there shonld be an end to Legislative improvement, as our
ConsAtution was perfect. No I he acted exactly the re-
vieve•--.-42e was as advocate for a general extensioe of the
staffrege, and shortening the duration of Parliaments,
add he was Wee by exactly the same argu-
ments that Reformers were met with now, but
hose * e treat such absurdities? He was for pro-
pane", and not standing still ' • but it might be said that
Air. Fox did not lire to see a Reform Bill carried ; but
Judging from his opinion of the arguments then used to re-
siit Reform, it was clear that his ideas of Whig principles
were lot those now entertained. It had been stated in this
House from the Treasury Bench, that he knew noway of
governing the people but by pleasing the people, and there-
( fore he would concede, and if he had not conceded suffi-
' eient, he would concede more. He would not do Mr. Fox
Ithee injustice to believe that he would have said at this too-
t
rrent; stand still. If he saw the present state of affairs—
; if he saw a reformed Government scarcely able to com-
mend a majority in a Reformed Parliament, which was
therefore obliged to shape its measures so as to conciliate
• the views and wishes of the anti-Reformers, he would not
I have said the rneesure was perfect ; or if he had Se2Ti thou-
# setpds of individuals signing petitions in favour of the
I 'esenerenen of the suffrage he would not have said
i stand still. If Hon. Members thought this was an exaly,-
,' gerated state of the public feeling, let them try any public
!pating in the metropolis. They might fly to Scotland,
1 ana Perliamentery Reform would meet them in Edin-
I burgh. Go where they would they would find the same
demand made for a reform of the Ref(); m Act—( Hear,
'befte)—Besines when the people carried Lord Grey's Go-
,.
vernment forward in the struggle of 1832. they looked with
confidence to this House as the tribunal before whom their
grievances should be heard. Now let them look at the
eneduct of the House on the subject of the Corn-laws.
)elrd qbey not within the course of a few weeks driven from
the hai, thousands of intelligent petitioners with perfect
j eemterhpt. Die they not scandalously refese to hear their
co .plaints, saving that they knew the case better than
the petitioners knew it themselves. Would they have dared
to do this if they were more closely identlEd with:the
people? No. The people said they had been
promised ruspresentation instead of t o rdnation—
fefirkm and pufity of election—but instead of this they
were kept down by intimidation and corruption. If they
; co nld not deny this, away with all notionsof finality. The
• Noble Lord asked what refbrms he (Mr. D.) proposed.
This wan not the moment lor entering into details. It was
of no use for him to propose remedies unleis the House
admitted' remedies to be required, and if he r.anted au
--authority for the course which he was now taking, he
might refer to the conduct of the Noble Lord on the Corn-
her question. According to the terms of his motion he
dig not feel called upon to go into details or calculations.
Ii was Mae calling on a man to furnish himself eith mate-
rnal for builditog a house, when he had no ground whereon
to ballet. Give him the ground—let them allow the
Jt Rotorua Bill to be inefficacious, and lie would
give them plenty of remedies.—(Heir, hoer.) If they
' vtlihe teo far, let them be curtailed. IC by any chance they
did pot go far enough, they could ea,ily be extenthd
(Hear, hear.) It they only affirmed the principle, they
lased sot be afraid of coming to the House for a vote of
general approbation as se the whole policy of the Govern.
grant. Let theta to truer to the people, and the people
would be true to them.—( Hear, hear.) The people were
not so unreasonable as sonic persons seemed to think them,
" eye they Were impressed with the notion that when the
court was against the Government, the Government
slung to the people ; but that now the Court was with
: the Geweroment, they turned their backs upon the people.
--(War.) They were grateful to the Government for its
000 duct to their fellow-subjects in Ireland, but as regarded
themeelresttey scarcely looked to it with hope. lie had
often heard it said that no Government was strong unless
based upon the affections of the people. If the House
*rto of that opinion let them extend the basis of popular
representation, in order to strengthen the stability of the
institutions of the country. It was for these reasons that
he proposed the amendment of which he had gi, en notice,
feteling confident that if her Majesty's Government and
„the Muse would agree to it that it would not only tend
to promote the comfort of the people, bat add greatly to
the welfare and security of the State.—( Hoar, hear.)
iiir C. STYLE said that he felt called upon to vote in
fAvour of the motion of the Noble Lord. If a decisicn
should be come to by that House which would cast the
Slightest degree of imputation on the Executive, of Ireland,
or upon the continuance of the policy which had been
adopted by Lord Norenanby, it would at once have the ef-
fect of destroying all prospect of ever being able to obtain
for that country permanent or ultimate prosperity. He
slid not deny that there existed in Ireland a state of crime
far biol./hold that which could be found in any country simi-
koly priced, but yet in that respect it was in a far more
. se*iSfactory condition novr than it ever before had
been. It was quite true that the Right Honourable Mem-
ber for Tarnworth had said he did not intend to impute
to the policy of the present Government of Ireland the ex-
tent of crime that now prevailed there, but it was clear
from the speeches of every Irish Member on that side of
the House, that it was the it intention to attribute to the
Government every crime said outrage which had been com-
Notsted intthat country for -the last four years. But it was
not by villifying the Marquis of Normanby, the Marquis
.of Anglesea, or the Itlvirq uis of Wellesley, who all in
:tiseir turn had been villified by Hon. Members opposite,
, that the Hduse could An ive at a true knowledge of the
cause of crime in Ireland. They must look through the
records of centuries of the misrule of that country, to be
enabled to trace those cau ens. The Government had been
charged with even tcreeni a 1; murderers,whereas he was in
possession of details that v ro aid show the utmost anxiety on
the part of Lord•Normanley's Government to bring offenders
of every description to justice in every possible case.
11.
ui°
then stated that the co ncl n was that the charges
:against gainst the Government f Ireland
s arose from a series of
exaggerations and in:metes acies respecting the circumstan-
sae connected with crine ?. The entire period of Lord
Wellesley's Lord Lieute a antcy was one of fearful outrage
and crime, yet there we re not then any popular Assoc:a-
lions, and then the E:zecutive Government bad the
strongest powers vest( of in them. Beginning with
yes." 1811, he proceeded -to 1814, when, according to a
speech of the Right Hen.. -Baronet the Member for Tam-
worth, in those counties that had lately been the scenes of
• the severest punishments, p articularly the Queen's County
' and Westmeath, the greater .st atrocities were immediately
after committed. In 181.5 Mr. Baker, a magistrate of the
county of Tipperary, was In urdered, and though a reward
of not less than 13,0001. we as offered for the discovery of
the perpetrators, it wa a only after the lapse of a
long time that a rocreant was induced to come forward to
{ give evidence. In IM6 as 7ful disturbances and crimes of
every description disgrat see I the counties of Tipperary,
Kill's County, Limerick, 1 south, and Down. A family
of nme persons were barbs ri ,usly massacred and burned to
(MA at one place. In 181'.'7 the Right Hon. Baronet was
-obliged to solicit from the House a continuation of the
Insurrection Act. Advert in g to the other criminal in-
stances of the succeeding 'jet' Ars down to the accession of
' . the Marquis of Nornaanby, Iw alluded to the speech of Mr.
Barron and other lion. Gt !ntlernen who had preceded him
in the debate, to show th at since the government of the
Piolale Marquis was comm. !treed, Ireland had, under the
coneiliatcley and vrorous rr tie of the Noble Lord in public
morals, in comme, in a ethic of property, and in tran.
quillity, improved, was in roving, and would, he had no
doubt from the impulse she b td receivcdcontinue to improve.
Sir G. SINCLAIR said the House was more noto-
rious for the interminable len r th of its speeches, and the
uninteresting character of iis debates, titan for the good
which its proceedings effect( el in the country. It appeared
to him that each party in t.' ext. House wan afraid to strike
tthe first blot.—(Cheers.) H.e loCked upon the present
proceedings as the last struggle of the expiring
Whig faction.—.(Cheers.) They affected to state that
their pteseut proceedings as 'ex e manly and magnanimous,
but he thought the reasons hl .e part of the House would
eonsider the course they had . adopted more cunning than
courageous.—(Laughter.) Nothing had astonished the
public so much as that duri og the recess the Noble Vis-
count at tke head of the Government, and his col-
Ilegm.,s, should have kept their places after his de-
e:ration in another place n that it was his deter-
itration not to du so after experiencing defeat.
°ea
_weead defy the Nob le Lord opposite to paint
or
e!',3' part of the comrr, uni -,y- that had any confidence or
11(fe'l)7,:eeNtefaur her Mjesty te ,':. liy.isters.—( Great cheering.)
in
eve:l.l'y that the bells woo 11 ring and bonfires be lighted
their towndismise and
hamlet,
at
the welcome intelligence of
Cabi-
net .1.---(Laughter.---(Laughter ) If the demise of the were to be announced i.;l the political obitu try, he for ,
one would be at a loss to knot r who would attend as chief I
Lauehte
Mourner—(
1' wou:d he the NeieleVi)s—e I
potp•.:r a ly the most proper party
: tif,-'44Wpihat he had beoeuont; .I.is assessor, who wound too 1 ;te i
'l:olrlta*alX, The present Mini stesr2sed with a worthless in-
i•satiwoner.e.im(Lersed chin deep
j 1 ....hat• of political tergi, e
Lutt,gshtetir.) Tney
J41:0..*e . ruse, with reepect ;to the Corn_ itsiiihtG was !
AI ' *pee Ic to hare a fi ;re i duty, but he
4
:-• It the ,he life of hint Er I out any duty on ebiee t'lle.))• 1
eose_ Se