The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-16 00:00:00

►ord

from
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days

since

the country that a despotism or democracy ; how- '
ever, if the f-xpences of supporting the pre.ent form
uf government were so unreasonable, it became a
serious tpteation how long such a scale ought to be
continued.—(Hear.)—Between the years 1769 and
Iffl4 the Sovereign had asked for an increase to the
Civil list eight different times ; and sums amount-
ing to. 5,747,0001. above the allowance provided
by Act of Parliament, were from time to time voted.
We were to recollect t hat t here had been 1,653,000/
itt droits of Admiralty, &c., exclusive of the civil
list, appro;.triated to the Crown. Faith had not
been kept with the people on the subject of the
civil list, which was settled on the basis of a fixed
sum being allotted to the Sovereign, on condition
that the produce of the crown lands, &c., should
come in aid of the revenue. There hail been col-
lected on account of crown lands 'not less than

:3,000,0004, of which only 500,0004 was paid into
the revenue. The Hon. Member stronely censured
the conduct of the Commissioners of Woods and
Forests, with respect to the crown lands, and
added, that if Mini,ter: did nor do what they ought
to do in the matter of the Royal expenditure, the
Mouse should speak out on the subject. The pro-
duce of the crown lanais was in 1827, 270,000/., and
245,0004 in 1828; but a century ago they were
capable of producing from 200,0001. to 300,000/.;
mud it Was stated in the seventeenth report of the
Commissioners in 1793, that if all the fee-farms
were sold, they ought to produce a sum of 400,000/.,
and that 'the rents ought to be thenceforth 400,0001.
a-year. The consequence of allowing the money to
remain in the hands of the Board of Commissioners
Was, that it was frittered away and applied to im-
proper purposes, so that the public did not derive
that degree of benefit from it which they were en-
titled to expect. If there was any difficulty in the
management of the crown land-, let the whole be
sold. The Hon. Member proceeded to in% eigh
against the enormous expense ineurred in building
and repairing palaces ; and declared that there were
matters connecred with these items of expenditure
for which Ministers ought to he impeached. A
sum of 1,356,000/. was included in the estimates
for these undertakings in the last two years. He
did not blame tile present Ministers exclusively,
for the lavish expenditure that had been incurred at
Windsor Castle andßuckingbam Palace; their pre-
decessors were accountable for much of the mischief.
For his own part he should propose to-stop the sup-
plies till his Majesty was brought to his senses.
Let us not vote a single shilling till we obtained
a clear understand'ng as to when there would be an
"od of all this folly and extravagance. The Hon.
Gentleman next alluded to the absurd project of ex-
pending 2,500,000/. upon public works in the wilds
of Canada, and censured the grant of 450,0001. to
the Duke of Athol for relinquishing his rights in the
Isle of Man, including 247,000/. for the bishopric
of Sodor and Man. We heard a great many com-
plaints from the landed interests relative to the pay-

pent of 7,000,0001. for the support of ,the poor, bit
the burthen entailed upon the ctnintryby pensions and
lthlegures was generally overlooked. It appeared
ti.hat. in' 1827, the amount of pensions for England,
Ireland, and Scotland, was 772,0001., exclusive Of
the half-pay and civil and military dead weight; the
latter of which had increased instead of being dimi-
nished since 1817. The number of naval officers
who held commissions now was 5,500,—as great a
number as we had years ago • and our expenses in
this way were greatly increased by the plan of omit-
ting to take persons from the half-pay list, instead
of creating new commisions. We ought to put an
end to pensions—(Hear)---and grant none except to
persons disabled in the public service, as was the
practice in America. In 1810, the amount of civil
pensions was 94,0001., and in 1827 it had reached
.to 484,0001. Whether it was not proper to recon-
sider the very large allowance made to the Royal Fa-
mily, was a point which he would not then argue; but
certainly he thought it ought to be reconsidered. The
next point to which he had to call their attention was
'the amount of pensions for services in the colonies.
These pensions amounted to 30,0001., and Cite system
was, in fact, a way of evading the superintendence
of that House, which ought not to be. The Civil
List, which . amounted to upwards of 1,000,0001.,
was not, he knew, all paid to his Majesty ; but he
contended that the salaries of Judges, and other
items of the like kind, ought to be separated from
it ; and the Civil List made, what every one sup-
' posed it was, namely, a provision for his Majesty.
The sums paid for the diplomacy of this country
were enormous, and an Address for reviewing this
expense ought to be made immediately to his Ma-
jesty. The salaries of our Ambassadors amounted
to 226,950/. Including Consuls, Missions, and so
forth, the whole amount of this item was 450,000/.
The presents which were charged in this account
ought to be abolished. They were given, he per-
ceived, on every occasion,—for instance, in a mis-
sion to Mexico : and such a system was enough to
contaminate any republic in the world—(Hear, and
laughter)—especially since in many States there was
an express law against receiving presents. See how
our diplomacy was managed in better times. By a
return of the expenses incurred under this head,
from 1792 to 1821, it appeared that the whole ex-
pense in 1793 was 113,000/. It had gone on in-
creasing, year after year, until it bad reached the
enormous amount he had just stated. He contended
that 250,0001. ought to be cut off immediately from
this charge. See how well these matters were ma-
naged in the United States. The Americans paid
each of their Ambassadors 2,000/. a-year., and they
obtataed as much knowledge and as great talents for
their 2,000/., as we obtained for our 12,000/. or
15030/- The debt of the Americans, in 1816,
%vas 114,000,000 of dollars. We had made no re-
duction in our debt, but they had almost cleared
themselves since that time, and would be out of
debt, next year. He had now, he believed, dis-
posed of the Civil List; but, at parting, he begged
to say a word about the Irish Civil List. That
amounted to 270,000/. Now, in the first place, he
would withdraw the Lord Lieutenant from
Ireland, make the Union a real Union, and
Savo 100,000/. a-year. The next point he
came to was the army. The vote last year was, in
round numbers, for 90,000 infantry, which was twice
the number we bad in 1792. He contended, that
20 might easily reduce our force by as much as
it ()00 men. Our artillery was nearly double what
Was in 1792; and there had been a proportionate
increase in the navy. If we were to reduce our
, -vai expenditure by 1,500,000/., and take 20,000
mete from our military force, we should still have a
og°oo,odoai,nd efficient navy, and. an army of more than
co -V,Ten," which was', quite as great as caution
trib mildrevire. Next he had to complain of the dis•
aohl!tlii,n of our army. Why.were not some of our
'eks;:withdrawn from Ireland, now that that
cLunitri was pacified.-„H e -was sure that a very large
It'cuner might be safely witbdrawn.. Then, look at
e,expence we.were. at for our military, force kept
t'iii the colonies.. There could be no necessity for
• expense -When he looked at-the force kept up
the,., •
we inlan Islands, 'he could not help asking, why
11 i:uts "oUld' keep those islands any longer ? Let us
ea compliment of the lonian Islands to King
a to
nit ,°“1, in. order to strengthen his hands.—(Hear,
laughter.) They were of •no use to us ; they
w ere
withdraw
worth the expense they cost : let us then
our troops, amid make a compliment of the
• )s
to King Leopold. All these expenses would
aye
thor-otighly investigated if the labours of
eve
H been
Committee had been suffered to go on.
He thanked the Hon. Member for Queen's county
(S• H—Parnell) for his exertions on that Corn-
' Cattee, and particularly for the account which he
"" ready to submit to the Committee, if Govern-
- , °tent had not shrunk from the inquiry, and thrown
.. the Committee overboard, in defiance of the wishes
and tfie expectations of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
They should, howeier, he was happy to know,
$ are‘ an. opportunity, in a few days, of being made
ted with' the
.11011. Baronet's views of the
fii .7"3that ought-6 be made. Hon. MeMbers
cone Where
depend. on it, that unless some relief were
count w4re the pressure of the screw pinched, the
rY would be brought into:a situation in which

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her distresses would force themselves on our atten-
tion in a manner not tp) be mistaken or longer de-

Dived. Still, ho ver, he would mit be understood

as saying that we should despair of the situation of
the country : her resources were yet powerful, and
if a timely remedy was applied—proper reductions
were made, there could be no doubt that we should be
able to get over all our difficubies. The Hon. Mem-
la,u- then went on to contend, that in every one of
our public departments the expences could be re-
duced, s as materally to benefit the country. There
was a paymaster for the army, another for the
navy, and another for the ordnance : the duties of
all of which could be performed by one officer at
much less expence than coy one of those—particu-
larly either of the two former—cost the country.
If the Finance Committee hnd been continued, he
could have demonstrated this ; but he had 'seen
weak enough to believe, that when Ministers dis-
continued that Committee, they themselves would
have undertaken the reductions. However, he
would not be so eadly deceived another time.—
(Hear.)—He then went on to point out the reduc-
tions he would have made. The Board of Ord-
_ _

luetions he would make. In tlq, first place, hr

would not employ the surplus revtiri, in buying up
the Three per Cents., nnr wohld he leave h as a
Sinking Fund. He remembend when some of his
commercial friends near him hear.l some years

ago advise the abolition of that land, they became
alarmed, and said the credit of the country would
be ruined if we had no Sinking Fund; but he

then predicted, and it had come to pass, that
without any Sinking Fund the Three per Cents,:
would come up to nearly 100. The Sinking Fund
was one of the greatest delusions the country had
ever seen, and by means of it this country had lost
200,000,0001. of money, by the facility w►th which
it had enabled Mr. Pitt to raise his several ruin-
ous loans. his plan would be, to let the surplus re-
venue go to the reduction of taxation. He would
reduce the taxes on malt, on tobacco, on wine, and
foreign spirits, and he would abolish the whole sys-
tem of coast blockade—(Hear, hear),—by which,
besides getting rid of that which created much ill-
blood, the country would be saved a sum amounting
to ,about 700,0001. a year. The whole of the re-
ductions which he proposed would amount to about
8,000,0001.; but he contended that though this
would be a saving in taxation, it would not be so
much loss to the revenue, which would be benefited
by increased consumption. The surplus revenue he
would apply in the reduction of taxation, and not
leave it at the disposal of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, for every Chancellor of the Exchequer whom
he had known was disposed to make a bad use of it.
He was of opinion that nothing in the present state
of the country was more necessary or desirable than
a review of the finances. When he had expressed

....,••.. .•,.. •• ....
nonce he would abolish, and have the principal part
of its duties tinder the controul of the Commander-
in-Chief. The Ordnance Storekeeper's depart-
ment should also be abolished, and he would have,
particularly in the colonies, the ordnance, naval, and
military stores, kept by one officer. The expensive
system of barracks, which had increased from
25,000/. to 200,0001. or 300,0001., he would also
reduce. It might be said that as long as there were
soldiers there should be barracks for them. True ;
but let the reduction which he proposed of 20,000
infantry be made, and it would be seen with what
rapidity all the others which he suggested would fol-
low. The lion. Member next proceeded to contend
that there ought to be a reduction of taxation on
malt, on wine, on foreign spirits, and entered into se-
veral calculations to show that the consumption
of malt is not at present (not►vithstanding
the great increase which had since taken place in
the population) so great as it was in the year
1785. In the ten years from 1785 to 1794, the
consumption was 25,725,000 bushel ; while in the
ten years from 1814. to 1824 it was only 25,000,000.
It was the same in several other articles of con-
sumption. In proportion as the tax was increased,
•the consumption of, and of course the revenue from,
it decreased. -From the same cause there had been
no increase worth naming in our post-office revenue
for the last 20 years. Now he would suggest to
reduce the rates of postage to about half the present
amount, and he was convinced that, besides the
great convenience and advantage to commerce, the
revenue from it would considerably increase. In
the several departments, the Treasury, the colonial
and Foreign departments, the expense had increased,
in some more than half, and in others fourfold. That

his disapprobation of the funding of eight millions of
Exchequer Bills, some one taunted him with the re-
proach of impatience, and required that lie should
wait until he had an opportunity of seeing the ad-
vantages which were expected to accrue. He re-
mained silent accordingly, but a very short period
only elapsed before his anticipations were verified to
their utmost extent, as the loss of two millions by
the operation of the system soon testified. • lts falla-
ciousness was at length become so evident, that he
wished Ministers would apply their three millions of

surplus to the purpo.se-Of taking the Exchequer
Bills out of the market altogether. In fact,
we had been losing at an enormous rate, for we
lost 100/, when we only gained 941. He would have
the Chancellor of the Exchequer appropriate
the surplus revenue to paying off quarterly until they

had got entirely rid of-this encumbrance, which had
criginated in policy so palpably erroneous. This
however, he was aware, would be most strenuously

opposed by certain personages of the Stock Exchange,
whose influence was known to be but too powerful
with our rulers. They would oppose it, because
their affluence must be maintained by national
gambling. The more injury to the country in this
respect the more benefit to them. But while we
were thus ruining ourselves by a progressi‘e arithme-
tical descent, he would ash what might not the
money so lost have done for us, if applied in the
shape of tangible relief to the suffering population.
It would have saved half the people from starving,
or repealed the taxes that pressed heaviest on the
poorer classes, who were at all times the greatest
sufferers.—(Hear, hear.)—He had all along re-
gretted that he had not appropriated the surplus
revenue to the reduction of taxation, instead of
tampering in loans and carrying on negotiations
which ended in our receiving in one hand only in
order to pay back with the other. Nor ought the
Ministry to purchase one shilling of 3 per Cents.;
their doing so was inconsistent with the prosperity
of the country. His Hon. Friend, the Member for
the Queen's County (to whose good sense and ex-
perience he more especially appealed), he was sure,
would sanction and support what he had recom-
mended. If it should be adopted, he would venture
to say that in seventy, or eighty, or at the
most, in about ninety years they would be
enabled to convert the national debt into a termi-
nable debt. Let Ministers be once induced to make
a beginning in good earnest, and it would inevitably
lead them to the most beneficial results. In the event
of their acceding to his motion, the consequence
would be a general reduction in all departments, of
such a nature as to produce at the same time incon-
venience and embarrassment to none. He would
propose first, in the army, a reduction to the
amount of 180,0001., which could be very easily
done by bringing the staff within proper limits, by
placing all those military stations where a Major-
General or other officer of high rank had command
on the same footing as in 1796, and by introducing
various other reformations which it was unnecessary
at present to specify in detail. Then in the navy
he would act on a similar principle, by stopping im-
mediately the useless building of ships, and the
erection of dock-yards, with the whole train of
their heavy concomitant expenses. In the item of
transport vessels alone there existed the greatest
extravagance, and a proportionably rigorous re-
trenchment was demanded. The amount of the
reductions in the navy he might estimate at about
120,000/., which would still leave its capacity for
public service unimpaired, and efficient as hitherto.
In the miscellaneous department a reduction of
1,400,0001. might be easily effected. During late
years our expenditure in this respect had increased
beyond credibility. In the years 1789, 1790, and
1791, the whole average of the miscellaneous ex-
penditure had amounted annually to but 150,000/.
Again, the collection of the revenue was in itself
an article of expense that might be curtailed to
the amount of 1,000,0001. sterling,—a fact which
Ministers would do well to keep in mind when
they contemplated a reduction of taxation, as it
suggested an additional motive for creating such
abatements. He thought that it would be politic to
alter the duty on tobacco, and on all other articles
where a temptation to smuggling was in any degree
held out. The overwhelming expense of keeping
up some of our public buildings ought likewise to
be materially retrenched. These redactions altoge-
ther might be computed at 5,650,0001., besides
which he would propose in the diplomatic depart-
ment a diminution of 300,0001. from the gross ex-
penditure which it cost us annually at present. He
would, moreover, recommend that the crown lands
should be let out at a reasonable rent, or disposed
of in toto for 500,0001.,—thus winding up the
whole concern by a judicious sale of the entire
property. The saving to the country would
now amount to 6,450,0001. independent of
1,550,0001. of surplus revenue, which would
place at their disposal an important aggregate
to be applied to the relief of the popula-
tion. It would enable them to repeal the whole
duty on coals, which although a remedy of a partial
description, was nevertheless in the existing state
of the community particularly desirable. In his
opinion the duty on soap ought also to_ be removed,
for reasons equally cogent. This duty brought in
annually to the revenue 1,414,0001., but was highly
inexpedient, inasmuch as it added 4d. to the price
of the article, although the duty itself was but 2d.,
or rather that which now cost 6d., if the duty were
taken off, would be valued at 3d. The next reduc-
tion should relate to candles, as this tax pressed
hardest on the poor villager, who expended his far-
thing candle nightly, and was obliged to forego in a
great measure that necessary indulgence. The
amount of the duty had latterly increased, and he
was sorry for such an increase from the time that he
had discovered the reason. The humble artisan and
needy workman, he understood, were now con-
strained to labour half the night, in order to eke out
their subsistence, and thereby had created this small
addition to the revenue.—(Hear.)—The duty was
only Id. per pound, whilst it added 21d. to the
price. The same objection, therefore, applied to
this tax as the former; nor ought the charges of
collection to be forgotten in calculating the policy
of their repeal, although this it was probable did not
enter into the account of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. Another reduction which he should sug-
gest, would be that of the duty on leather, which
amounted to 383,0001. This subject, he was aware,
might occasion some little odium, but the present
system was avowedly open to objection. Take

in the department for Foreign Affairs they had
enormously increased, but it should not be wondered
at when we had messengers travelling backwards
and forwards all over Europe, at an extravagant
charge, and 40,000/. or 50,0001. secret service
money, in a time of profound peace. With respect
to the Treasury, some reductions of expense had
been made since JB2O, and he gave Government
credit for them; but still the scale was too high.
The scale of all public salaries, limn the King dowe-
wards, was too high, and would bear being brought
down a peg or two. The establishment of the
Treasury was rendered so large and expensive,
because that department reserved to itself a power
of revising the acts of other Boards ; but instead
of this he would have those other Boards, such as
the Customs, where there were 18 or 19 commis-
siones, and the Excise, where there were 16 com-
missioners, reduced to five each, and let those
Boards decide on all cases which came before them,
except in annie very particular circumstances; and
then it would not be necessary to keep up such an
establishment at the Treasury. He would now come
to the collection of the revenue, and he had no he-
sitation in saying, that without any risk as to the
mode of collection, the expence might be reduced
from 4,000,000/. to 2,500,000/., thus making a saving
of 1,500,000/. yearly. There was, for instance,
the collection of the stamp duties in Scotland, which
was done at 6 per cent. Now lie had offered to
collect it at 2i per cent. It would have been a nice
thing for him to have the appointment of the seve-
ral distributors of stamps throughout that country,
yet Mini-ters refused his offer.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
There was one man in Aberdeen who, without stir-
ring out of his shop, made an lucerne of 1,2001. a
year as a distributor of stamps. He would also abo-
lish the offices of Receivers-General of Taxes in
counties. This was an expense which was wholly
unnecessary. The Finance Committee had recom-
mended, where two Receiver,,-General were ap-
pointed for a county, that as a vacancy occurred, it
should not be filled up, but the whole duty be per-
formed by the surviving receiver, without any in-
crease of salary; and on this he would admit the
Government had acted. In one case of the kind, the
surviving receiver wrote to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer on the subject, and complained of the
hardship of being called upon to do double duty fur the
same salary. The Right Hon. Gentleman referred the
writer to him (Mr. flume), observing that he was the
author of the measure. He answered the gentleman
(who had complained to him of the hardships of
beim7 called on to receive the taxes of a whole county
for his former salary of GOO/. a-year), and expressed
his regret that he should suffer from a general
measure, intended for the public good ; but added,
that if the gentleman did not wish to bold the
office on those terms, he (Mr. Hume) would be
very glad to have the nomination of his successor,
after which he heard no more on the subject.—
(Hear, and a laugh.)—He would not be satisfied
with the half measure,—he would abolish the whole
of the Receiver-Generalships, by which a saving of
50,000/. or 60,000/. a-year would be made to the
country. The whole of the taxes could be as effec
tually received by the collectors of excise : and it
would be only adding another item to their collec-
tions in their respective districts. A collector of
excise, who was asked what he thought would be a
fair remuneration for this additional trouble of col-
lection, answered that he thought an addition of 50/
a-year would be a very fair recompense. It was
objected to him, when this was proposed, that the
collectors could not give sufficient security; but he
met the objection at once, by stating that from
Lancashire excise revenue to the amount of
1,800,000/. was sent up, and the highest security
given by any person engaged in its collection was
.5,000/., and there was no such thing heard of as a
defalcation. He had calculated, that out of
355,000,0001. of excise, there was no defalcation,
except one of 30,0001, which was occasioned by the
death of a collector, but the circumstances connected
with the default were accidental ; but from papers
on the table of the House, it appeared that in the
accounts of Receivers-General of counties there had
been defalcations to the amount of 355,000/. In
the Excise, however, great care was taken in the se-
lection of collectors, no man being chosen for that
office who was not well known to be trustworthy, and
who had previously served as a riding-officer and
supervisor, and also been twenty years in the ser-
vice. He could wish that the same care was ob-
served in all other public departments. He next
called the attention of the House to the state of the
Board of Excise, in which, though the department
' came nearer to perfection than any other, he would
reduce the number of Commissioners to five. He
could not see the use of sixteen Commissioners,
except to act as relays, while some of the number
were absent two or three months for their amuse-
ment. He would abolish the Board of Stamps, and
unite two or three of the smaller boards, by which
the duty now performed by two or three would be
as effectually done by one, with not a greater num-
ber of Commissioners than on the smallest of those
boards. By such reductions he contended that a
saving of 1,500,000/. a year would be made to the
country. It might be said that it was easy to talk
of those reductions, but he would bring the thing
to book, and prove that what he proposed was eaiily
practicable. He would now state what other•re-
i

place what elisaestliere might, there was found to be ments, the rather, as the Hon. Member had spoken
;(3 abatewe .; i!i ilit. ;nit, of shoes, which might be from documents and calculations the result of the
st,ributed to Ow :Hilted: its attendant on the preli- labours of a series of years, while he was called upon
minary nianefeeterieee The profits would be ncces-
to 'Titre them wholly unarmed and unprepared
sarily tco stes'i for subsistence at a much lower price
with the requie;te official papers. Besides, so ex-
when the curryin2: and other preparatory pro-
tensive was the scope of the Hon. Member's obser-
cesaes were divide] into so many Lands. If any one vations, that it was impossible to catch his meaning,
tradesmen should attempt to unite them in his own
save here and these be piecemeal. He was placed
person, he subjected himself to a ruinous fine, which, In rather a strange position by the lion. Member.
coupled with the difficulty of evading the excise It was the usual course for the Chancellor of the
penalties when so incurred, be was given to under- Exchequer to bring forward that annual statement of
st rid had prevented numbers from entering the trade. the income and expenditure of the country, known by
If the duty were taken off, he had no doubt that the the
name of the budget ; but in consequence of the
future price would be 4,0 per cent. less than the pre- Hon. Member's strange course of proceeding, he
sent. Government, however, would enjoy at the should have, car the first time, to present himselfthen to
same time a corresponding advantage to the amount the lionse, not as the proposer, brit as the opposer
of 20 per cent. at least in their purchase of the leather
of the budget.—(hear.)—Under these circuits-
consumed in the military service. In addition to stances, therefore, he thought his wisest course
this he would withdraw the duty on beer, which would be not to enter into a detail of the several
amounted to 3,204,0004, while the expellee of col- topics discussed by the Hon. Member, but to save
lecting it came to 380,0001. Leaving a difference of the time of the House by ut once objecting to the
about 2,800,000/. This tax was an especial grievance Hon. Member's general motion. He propose& then,
to the poor, although it did not affect country gentle- to follow that course, save on one or two particular
men in the same degree, but he felt convinced that points, in order, by a refutation of them, to induce
they would be the last to complain, if their humbler , the House to believe that the other statements of
neighbours were placed on a level with themselves the I-lon. Member could and would be equally re-
in this particular.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was hard, in • plied to on the proper occasion. What, then, in
deed, that the poor man should be obliged to pay a the first place, was the objeet of the Hon. Mew-
tax at the rate of 50s. upon malt, when the rich were ber's motion ? He called upon the House to repeal
required to render or:ly 30s.—(Hear.)—Another the
taxes necessary to the public expenditure to the
tax to the amount of 37,0001., on cider and perry, in greatest possible extent.—(Hear, hear.)—lf the
the distress which now existed throughout the west Hon. Member had confined his proposition to a
of England, it would be equally expedient to abolish, general expression of this recommendation, he for
A reduction of one half in this duty had been already one would not oppose it, and would leave it to the
accomplished a few years ago, and the relief which wisdom of Parliament to determine how that reduc-
was then extended hal greatly ameliorated the con- tion could be best effected without detriment to the
dition of those who laboured under its influence. A public service. But as the Hon. Member had
similar relaxation was never more Wanted than at added to this general recommendation a specific plan
present. He would next repeal the window duty, of repeal of taxes, by a reduction of our civil, naval,
which amounted to 1,164,155/., and the inhabited and military establishments, without waiting for the
house duty, which was 1,295,1721. The latter tax, estimates of those establishments being laid before
he was assured, had obliged many to wander abroad, the House,—without waiting to see whether any
exiles from their country, being unable to keep and what reductions might be proposed in them
up an establishment at home. Removing such an by Ministers,—he would not acquiesce with the
obstacle would be an inducement in favour of their , lion. Member's motion. If a reduction be expedient,
• return ; they would contribute to the employment of how could Parliament determine its amount or its
the poor in their neighbourhood, and so far conduce to practicability, till it had inquired into the neces-
the prosperity of their native land. The absentee tax city and general bearing of the several branches of
would then be no longer necessary, as he had no doubt the public expenditure? And how could that ne-
, but that in nine cases out of ten our countrymen cessary inquiry be instituted before Ministers had
I who resided in foreign kingdoms were driven laid before the House the responsible official state-
thither against their better inclination, for the mere mew of the amount of the several estimates for
purposes of economy. Hereafter, however, it was the year, so as to enable the House to decide upon
to be hoped that in Devonshire and many other the economy or extravagance observed in the ma-
parts of England they could live equally cheap, and nagement of the public money ? As a departure,
that their return would be compatible with their then, from the usual practice of Parliament, the Hon.
anxiety for retrenchment. By the removal of those Member's motion was highly objectionable. Instead
two taxes, they would be enabled to add 2,460,0001. of first determining the minimum of expenditure
to the other reductions, which would take, in all, a compatible with the efficiency of the establishments
sum of 8,835,832/. off the pecuniary burdens of the of the country, and then adjusting the revenue to
country. But he would not stop here; for it would that expenditure, the Hon. Member reversed the
be expedient to pare down the expenditure on the process, and asked die House to lay down a mini-
same principle. lie would recommend also an abo- mum of revenue, to which he would apportion the
litien of the tax on corn, notwithstanding the exist- expenditure. Was this, he would ask, the course
care of which the importation of this year had been most fitted for forwarding the general weal ? Was
large beyond example. He would beg of those who not the usage hitherto followed that best adapted
were opposed to free trade only to consider for one for promoting the public service ? And on what
moment time necessary effects of the system which grounds did the Hon. Member ask the House to
they so strenuously advocated. By lessening the depart from its usual practice ? Why, says the
proceeds of the labourers and artisans, did it not Hon. Member, to take away the power from Ministers
render diem unable to purchase the butter, cheese, of injuring the finances of the country. But did not
cattle, and other articles of consumption yielded by the Hon. Memberperceive that by the same process
the estates of those gentlemen themselves ? The he would take away from Ministers the power of
employment of the humbler classes was at an end, doing good to the country. For how could they
and they were eventually thrown on the poor-rates venture to entertain views and consider objects in re-
for subsistence, thus becoming a burden and dead- lotion to the public welfare, if they possessed no dis-
weight on the properties which, under other cir- cretionary but responsible controul over the arrange-
cuinstances, they might have contributed to enrich. ment of their respective offices ? What set of honour-
These two advantages were surely enough to coun- able men would consent to fill the posts of Government,
terbalance the more direct effect of the protection, if, in the spirit of the Hon. Member's wild and ex-
and landed proprietors therefore lost more in value travagant speculations, they were deprived of all
in one way than they could gain in another. Then official controul? He called them wild and extra-
redactions ought also to be effected in the duties on vagant speculations, for what did they mean to ef-
tobacco, foreign spirits, sugar, glass, and paper, res- feet f The Hon. Member proposed to reduce the
pectively. There was likewise a tax, which it had taxes by 9,000,0004—( Hear, hear.)—But how did
been supposed Ministers had had it in contemplation the Hon. Member propose to effect that reduction ?
last year to remove, he alluded to that upon insurance. Did the Hon. Member recollect that 29,000,000/. of
But, without dwelling further upon that point, lie the taxes annually raised in this country went to pay
would recommend generally that taxes upon all raw the interest of the National Debt; and that if the
articles arid manufactures should be very much dimi- dead weight and other expenditures to which the
nished, as tending to interrupt the industry of manu- national honour is pledged be added to that interest
facturers. It ought to be recollected that taxes to item, there remains but from 10,000,0001. to
the amount of 27,000,000/. had been taken off in 11,000,000/. of surplus, from which, forthwith, the
the year 1828, at the recommendation of the Finance Hon. Member proposes to deduct 9,000,0004—
Committee, yet no less accrued from the abatement,
( Hear.)—Did not the very statement of the propo-
it gave such elasticity to industry, and had so far re- sition expose its absurdity ? He would not andel-
novated the energies and resources of the nation.—
pate the discussion which the estimates (of which
At other and less critical periods members might those for the army would be very shortly before the
often be brought to agree upon half-measures, but House) for the year would give rise to, and there-
now, when the cry for retrenchment and the reduc- fore would not take up the time of the House by
Lion of taxation was so general throughout the land, proving that time expenditure which the Hon. Mern-
it became necessary to do something more perma- ber proposed to reduce by 9,000,000/. was regu-
nent iti its nature and more decided in point of po-
licy. A ministerial pledge of such a character had fated by the most rigid principles of economy.
There was, however, one other point, which lie
been given in 1821 ; but that pledge was broken, nor could not help animadverting upon, constituting as
had it ever awakened his confidence. On the mo- it did a leading feature in the Hon. Member's speech
Lion which he should now have the honour of sub-
—one, indeed, upon which he had more than once
mitting, he presumed that there could be but one
at other times enlarged. The Hon. Member, in his
opinion entertained. He could not imagine that any
allusion to a high personage, whose name was not
man in that House was composed of such materials mentioned in the proceedings of that House, had
as to be capable of pronouncing such a resolution to
not only departed from the usage and order of
be unnecessary. The Hon. Member then read his
Parliament, but had made use of language which,
motion, which was to the following effect :—" That in spirit and terms, could not be too strongly re-
an humble address be presented to his Majesty, re-
commending the repeal or modification of all taxes probated. The Hon. Member proposed in the first
place to alter the arrangements made with the
in our civil, military, and naval establishments, as a Crown for the maintenance of its dignity on the
means 'of affording immediate and effectual re- accession of his oresent Majesty. He held up the
lief to the country."—(Hear, hear, hear.)—He was civil list as one of those branches of the public
happy to find that the House expressed such ala- expenditure from which a large reduction should be
crity and readiness to vote in favour of what made forthwith, without a reference to circum-
he had just read.—(Laughter.) Would any Mena- stances. Nay, more, he called Ministers to task
her present be prepared to reply that they were not for not having sooner made the reduction which he
.in a condition to give relief, or that there was any proposed themselves. But the Hon. Member, be-
better mode of administering such relief than that fore he blamed them on this score, should have
which he had suggested ? Could those who agreed considered the relation in which they stood to the
with Ministers in avowing the expediency of reduc- civil list. They found it, in the first place, fixed by
tion refuse to go with him in his extension of the a deliberative act of the Legislature. They found
same principle to the relief of the population? He that for it, as it now stood, the Crown had stir-
had no object whatever in view,—he could have no rendered its hereditary revenues,—which revenues,
object,—except that of seeing the country relieved he begged the House to bear in mind, were found
from its present sufferings and distresses. If the to far exceed in amount the compensation paid by
House should refuse to accede to what they were Parliament.—(Hear.)—So far, then, from wishing
equally bound by policy and humanity to adopt, he to adopt the Hon. Member's proposition, and re-
would only say that they would work both discredit store the hereditary revenues of the Crown to it,
to themselves and disappointment to their consti and reducing the civil list, Ministers consulted the
tuents. public benefit by appropriating the former to the
On the motion being put, public service, as it was by far the best for meeting
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER the public exigencies. If, indeed, the civil list ex-
said he rose to address the House under feelings of ceeded in value or amount the revenues of the
considerable embarrassment, not only from the chili- Crown which were exchanged for it, there might
culty of the task of following the Hon. Member for be some sense in the Hon. Member's proposal; but
Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) through his various and as the reverse was the case, he was sure the House
complex statements, but from a conviction of the would not, for a moment, follow the Hon. Member's
almost impossibility of refixing the attention of an recommendation. He, for one, would always oppose
audience so long pre-occupied by the Hon. Member. and protest against such a proposition, and had no
The Hon. Member had added to his difficulties by doubt of being supported by the House. But the re-
not adopting a new line of proceeding from that commendation was in keeping with the torte of scorn
usually followed by him : that is, by not refraining and contempt in which the Crown was invariably
from his usual minute investigation of the de- spoken of by the Hon. Member., If he objected
tails of the various items of the revenue and ex- to the principle of mentioning the name of a per-
penditure of the country,—items, a due discussion sonage - which should never be heard in the debates
of which would require each a separate evening, and of that House, how much more should he protest
as much time and attention as the House could be- against the terms iu which the allusion had been
stow without a total neglect of its other duties. made by the Hon. Member. He would not take
Nor was the variety of the Hon. Member's statements it upon him to question the Hon. Member's predi-
their only objectionable feature :—the length of lections in the abstract for particular forms of go-
time embraced by the Hon. Member's inquiry added vernment, nor his right to assert those predilec-
to the task of replying to them—a period extending tions on fitting occasions ; but he' would most em-
from 1792 to the present year. The Hon. Member phatically protest against monarchy being spoken of
had thought proper to lay to his account all the in a British House of Commons only in terms of
charges which he could bring forward, not only scorn and contempt. The Hon. Member might ex-
against himself, since his accession to the Chan- patiate as long as he pleased of the blessings which
cellorship of the Exchequer, but, what was hardly flowed to America from her republican institutions,
fair, against his immediate predecessors in office. He and on the advantages or disadvantages which this
did not shrink from the responsibility attached to or that country might derive from a democracy or
official station, nor from the task of vindicating those an aristocracy ; but he was sure he would fail in
his
to had preceded him, for he knew them too well inducing a British douse of Commons to ado pt his
tO doubt of the injustice of the Hon. Member's sentiments respecting our free Monarchy.—(Hear,
censures; he knew them to be men of ability and hear.)—Connected with that part of the Hon.
honour, who had invariably received the cordial Member's arguments, were his declamation against
support of Parliament. It would be unfair to ex- the amount of the Pension List. There, said the
pest, however, that he should be then prepared:to Hon. Member, is 770,000/, of the public money
follow the Hon. Member through his various state- annually expended in order to enable Ministers tc

command majorities by bribes and pensions to their
supporters : reduce, therefore, the amount, and by
so farlessen the official means of corruption.—(Hear,
hear.)—But the Hon. Member seemed to forget
that 446,0001. of this item was embodied in the con-
solidated fund—not at the will of corrupt Ministers,
but by Parliament—(Hear)—as the reward of the
highest naval, military, and judicial services that
were ever entitled to the gratitude of the country.
—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Therefore, if the itein were
to be reduced, Parliament, in its full legislative
capacity, and not a corrupt Minister, must effect
the reduction. The Honourable Member seemed
to Wave little reliance on the statement which his
Hon. Friend the Member for Derry (Mr. G. Daw-
son) made a few evenings ago, of the disposition of
the present Government to reduce the public expen-
eitine to the lowest point compatible with the pub-
lic welfare. But how were the Hon. Member's
doubts supported by facts ? A vacancy occurred
in the Board of Taxes a short time since; the
Noble Duke at the head of the Government was
applied to to fill it up. What was done? Why
the Noble Duke ordered the office to be abolished,
it being suggested that the number of commissioners
might be lessened without detriment to the public
service.—(Hear, hear.) Another vacancy occurred
in the Board of Stamps. What was done in that
instance ? The very same thing—the office was
abolished.—(Hear, hear.) In the Board of Ex-
cise, in the same way, the number of Commissioners
had been reduced two in thirteen, and it wee ire
tended to effect a similar reduction in the Board of
Customs as soon as the experiment could be practi-
cable.—(Hear, hear.) This showed the disposition
of Ministers to effect every possible reduction that
the efficiency of the pulilic establishments of the
country could permit. But perhaps the Hon. Mem-
ber might ask, are these all the reductions you mean
to attempt ? He answered him no, though he
would not then anticipate the detail of those in-
tended. Did not these facts show that there did
not exist the shadow of a shade for the Hon. Gen-
tleman's imputation against the economical spirit
of the present Government? The Honourable
Member had called the attention of the House
to the works in Canada, with a view to creating
an impression of the improvident wastelelness of
Ministers. He told the House that the exruses
of those works amounted to two millions last year.
What, however, was the fact? The House voted,
as the Hon. Member ought to have known, but
500,0001. last year for those works.—(Hear.)—
How, then, did the Hon. Member make up his
two millions ? Simply by putting in one item of
.500,000/. voted by that House, with the cost of
works which had been postponed for the present,
and of others which had been postponed altogether;
and this he did for the purpose of swelting hie
charge of ministerial extravagance. Then, with
respect to the taxes, the Hon. Member's statements
were equally open to animadversion. The Hon.
Member correctly stated that the debt now amounted
to 800,000,0001. but argued that if the 800,000,0001.
of taxes raised within the last fifteen years had been
properly expended, the debt would now be extiee
guished.—(" No, no.")—He understood the Hon.
Member so ; for if such were not his meaning,
what could be his object in contrasting the possible
effects of a certain course of economy with the ac-
tual condition of the public expenditure? Then
the Hon. Member stated that the population had
advanced in. a larger ratio than the consumption ;
owing, he said, to the increased amount of taxes
having diminished the command of the large mass
of consumers over the necessaries of life. But how
did the Hon. Member prove his assertion ? By se-
lecting one year in the height of the war, when the ne-
cessarily isolated condition of the country, so far as
foreign imports were concerned, tended to increase the
consumption of domestic commodities, and comparing
that with the estimate of a year of peace, when the
home market was open to the world.—(Hear.)—
To prove his statement, the Hon. Member should
have compared the ratio of consumption and popu-
lation before the war with that now existing. If,
for example, he had selected the article of tobacco,
he would have found that the consumption amounted
to but 9,500,0001b5. in the year 1791; while it
amounted to 15,000,0001b5. last year, showing a
greater ratio of increase of consumption than that of
population could account for. In conclusion, the
Right Hon. Gentleman begged Hon. Members to
consider whether the Hon. Member's motion would
tend to the general advantage if forthwith acted
upon. Those that thought so would of course vote
for it; while those who were inclined to await the
detailed statements of Ministers of the reductions
intended to be made in the several branches of the
public service, would vote against it, and for the or-
der of the day. He could not consent to it—
though he was ready to acknowledge that the llouse
would, after a discussion of the several details of the
subject, be better able to adopt his suggestion—
without consenting to abandon the station to which
he was raised by the favour of his Sovereign, and
thereby implying an admission of his inability 'to
preside over the financial arrangements of the coun-
try,—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MABERL Y would vote for his Honoureble
Friend's motion, though he did not subscribe to all
his statements and opinions. The objection of the
Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to him most extra-
ordinary; for what did it amount to, but that be-
cause he did not admit:the correctness of one or two
points, he therefore would reject the rest ?—(Hear.)
—The Right Hon. Gent. declined going into detail
and yet on what occasion was detail more applicable ?
It was straage to see the inconsistencietrinto which
Ministers were led by this present mode of proceed-
ing. They first admitted the necessity of minute
investigation, and granted the Finance Committee.;
but when that Committee began to do some good by
its detailed inquiries, Ministers said they would not
consent. to its renewal on the ground that the
points to which those inquiries were directed might
be sufficiently discussed by the House at large. Well,
his Hon. Friend brings those points before the House,
and then Ministers tell him, " they will not enter,
into detail," for that is not the proper season.—
(Hear, hear.)—And thus the errors in the present
system would be perpetuated till the public embar-
rassment would call for another Finance Committee.
It was high time that something should be done—
(Hear)—and that a Finance Committee should
direct its minutest inquiries into all the branches of
the public expenditure. The fallacy of borrowing
with one hand to pay with the other a surplus fund 6
was first demonstrated to Ministers by the Finance
Committee ; and many other fallacies connected
with the dead weight system would, he was save,
by this time also have been made manifest to them
if the Committee had continued its labours. The
motion of his Hon. Friend merely stated, that a large
redaction in our taxation was rendered highly ex-
pedient by the state of the country. The motion
should be rather supported by the House, as not one
word had been said in the King's Speech of the in-
tention of Ministers to propose any reduction in taxes.
This House was bound to pledge itself to the people
to reduce the taxation of the country, and that was
all that the present motion effected. It left to the
House to decide in what particular branch the re-
duction ought to be made, and what should be its
amount. But if the proposition brought forward
by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) was to be treated
in the manner it had by the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, his Hon. Friend must conic
with a motion for specific reductions; and if the
House should not agree to the motion now before
it, he (Mr. Maberly) should think it his duty to
propose the reduction of some tax which he consi-
dered most oppressive to the people. There were
many branches of the public expenditure in which lie
conceived reduction might safely be made, particu-
larly in the civil, military, and miscellaneous esti-
mates. It was indeed surprising, that while the
value of every thing -IVas depreciating,—while the
rent of land had fallen as 50 per cent.,—
that this expenditure 'stood. iligher than it did in
1817. He would. not enter into any details, because
his statements might liedenledloy'lOthers, and thus
• a controversy comnieneeoibielivOuld be in no way