The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-20 00:00:00

BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Gen. LINDSAY presented a petition against the second
reading of the bill, or any bill which did not make provision
for a general rating throughout the kingdom.
Mr. VILLIERS said the bill had been discussed a good
deal some nights ago, and upon that occasion several
suggestions had been thrown out and observations made
by several hon. members, who were, perhaps, the best
entitled to make them. The first suggestion made upon the
subject of the Act was by the noble lord the member for
King's Lynn, and which was concurred in by the hon. mem-
ber for Rochdalde and others, with respect to their irnper-
ft ct experience, and the uncertainty of the circumstances
with which the house had to deal ; and which made it ne-
cessary that the duration of the Act should be for a shorter
time. Finding from numerous communications which came

to him from the distressed districts, and from the represen-
tations of a deputation who had waited upon him at the de-
pi.rtuient over which he presided, that there was a general

feeling that there should be another discussion of the ques-
tion at a more advanced period of the session, the Govern-
ment were disposed to accede to the general desire, and
therefore the present Act would only be operative for the
next two quarters. (Hear, hear.) Another important sug-
gestion which had been made was, that the time for the
repayment of the loans should be extended over a greater
number of years. (Flea., hear.) Although at the time it was
proposed to introduce a provision iu the Act to enabla the
boards of guardians to make loans, sui•h provision was re-
ceived with distrust as a novelty, yet trom all the informa-
tion he had received there was no reason to apprehend there
had been any laxity or irregularity in the administration of
the poor law. Under these circumstances, then, he was wil-
ling to introduce an amendment allowing the annual instal-
ments to be spread over 14 years instead of 7. (Hear, hear.)
_ _

There was an error in the Act which could not have been

premeditated, and which he would remove by introducing a
new clause ; the wording of the clause as it now stood was to
the effect that any union whose expenditure reached a cer-
tain point, which was 3s. in the pound, was not bound to
contribute towards other distressed unions. These were the
only changes he intended to propose, and he trusted hon.
members would allow the bill to be now read a second time,
and reserve their observations until the bill went into com-

mittee.
Col. W. PATTEN said he was not going to throw any
obstacles in the way of the second reading, nor would he
occupy more of the time of the house than was necessary.
The right hon. gentleman had met two of the principal ob-
jections, but there were other points worthy of considera-
tion. The rate in aid principle was good, but when it was
put in operation it fell upon the occupiers and not upon the
property—(hear, hear)—and the agricultural part of the
distressed districts complained at having the burthen
thrown upon them. If they lived in close proximity with

large towns they paid an increased rent. The extra charge
of the rate in aid ought to be charged upon the property.
The period for contracting loans was too limited. The con-
sequence was that some banks would not advance the money,
and when it was lent a higher rate of interest had to be
paid. Unions that had paid, comparatively speaking,
heavy rates, complained of their having to afford assistance
to those unions which had always paid a lower amount of
rate. The unions wished Covernment to lend the money
for a period of not less than ten years, and that the prin-
ciple end interest might be repaid by equal annual instal-
ments. Every landlord in Lancashire had voluntarily con-
tributed a larger rate in aid than the rates levied wider
the act.

Mr. GREUSON called attention to the prospect of a

mit tee.

diminution of the distress. He doubted, however, if we
could depend for the future on a supply of cotton, even if
the American war was to terminate. Should it, howeier,
continue for some time longer, he thought it would be well
for the manufacturers to consider whether it would not be
better for s,•tue of the operatives to seek other employment.
Gen. LINDSAY thought it wise co limit the bill to six
months.
Alderman SIDNEY regarded the principle of a rate in
aid as most sound, but he viewed the borrowing powers of
the bill with great susobion.
Mr. HUM BE RSTON E hoped the bill would not be hur-
ried forward, in order that the country might pronounce

upon it.
Lord E. HOWARD thanked the President of the Poor-

law BoarJ for the concession he had made with respect to

the borrowing powers. He had no doubt the rate in aid
operated detrimentally as regarded some districts, hut at
the same time he could not see how they could get on with-
out one.
Mr. EVANS urged the desirability of allowing the dis-
tressed unions to borrow money.
Mr HIB tiERT trusted the house would be inclined to
give Lancashire what she required—liberal borrowing
power to enable her to deal with the distress.
Mr. CO BD EN received with satisfaction the proposal, in
the present bill, to extend the time over which the repay-
ment of loans was to be made. He was not at all enamoured
last session of giving relief by a rate-in-aid; he wanted
greater facility to be given to the boards of guardians to
borrow money. That was his opinion then, and he enter-
tained it still. They had been thwarted in that not so much
by the right hon. gentleman as by the board over which he
presided, which had every great aversion to any change in
their traditional policy of a rate-in-aid. The inconvenience
whioh the hon. and gallant member for North Lancashire
(Col. Wilson Patten) complained of—namely, that the rate-
in-aid fell upon the occupying tenants, and not upon the
landlords—was not easily remedied, but it might be to some
degree by a clause enabling tenants to charge the whole of
the increased rate upon their landlord. He wished to call
the attention of the hon. and gallant gentleman to the fact
that the principle of the rate-in-aid was inherent to our
poor-law legislation, in the interest not of property but of
the rights of the poor, and must be preserved as an alterna-
tive. Where a union became so pauperised as to be unable
to maintain their por, it was right to go upon the county
for a rate-in-aid. But he did not contemplate the neces-
si,y for that, provided there were no obstacles thrown in
the way even now to a fair mode of borrowing money.
The agricultural districts and the manufacturing dis-
tricts of Lancashire were in accord in desiring that faci-
lity should be given to borrow money instead of resorting
for the present to a rate-in-aid. Why, then, should any
restrictions be thrown, for the next twelvemonth to
come, in the way of those unions raising money to

meet their difficulties ? He would repeat his sugges-
tion of last year, of imposing a limitation as to the amount
to be borrowed—say to the extent of 50 per cent. of the
assessed annual value of their property, but, with such a
limitation he would ask, in the name of common sense and
humanity, by what rule of stupidity could it be said that the
unions should not borrow until they had inflicted on them-
selves the inconceivable torture of raising rates to the extent
of 3s. in the pound. He would appeal to his right hon.
friend to shake off altogether the influence of those heredi-
tary red tapists with whom he was associated, to take the
matter into his own hands, t., meet the members represent-
ing the manufacturing and agricultural districts, talk this
matter over, and arrange it upon principles of common sense
before going into committee, if the right hon. gentleman
would only do that, it might be arranged so as to evade the
difficulty of a rate in aid, and enable the distressed unions to
tide over the period of distress in a way the least hurtful to
themselves and the least injurious to their neighbours.
Mr. NE W DE GATE suggested that the borrow ;ng powers
should be resorted to up to a given point before the rate in
aid was brought into operation, so as to prevent the abuse of
the old law coming into operation, namely the payment of
money not raised in the locality in aid of wages.
The bill was then read a second time.

TELEGRAPHS BILL.
This bill was read a second iime.
MALT DUTY BILL.
Upon the motion to read this bill a second time,
Colonel Bartelott, Sir M. Farquhar, and Major Parker
objected to the bill on the ground that it did not give suffi-
cient relief to the manufacturers.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
was scarcely the time to discuss the question, and he would
therefore propose to postpone the discussion until the com-

Mr. WALPOLE thought the relief to the maltsters
would be almost neutralised by the 4 per cent, interest they
would have to pay.
Mr. PULLER urged that the bill should be discussed
then, for there would be very little opportunity of doing
so in committee.

Mr. JACK ON defended the course proposed by the
Chancellor or the Exchequer, as it was the duty of the
right hon. gentleman to obtain the most he could obtain
for the revenue. lie could not see why the country should
furnish capital to the maltsters to carry oil their business
Mr. BENTINOK., although concurring so far with the
Chancellor of the Exchequer that the present was not the
time to go into all details of the malt question, trusted that
hon. members who were prepared to support the rights of
the agriculturists would be prepared on the proper occasion
to attend in their places, and see that justice was done to
them.

The bill was then read a second time.
BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION
(IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion for going into committee on this bill,

Lord NAAS moved that it be an instruction to the com-
mittee to make provision for the registration of marriages
in Ireland. He reviewed the plans that bad been submitted
to the consideration of the house on the subject of registra-
tion of marriages. He thought all that was now required
was a registration of the Roman Catholic marriages, which
might be done by the priests without imposing on ►hem
any great additional labours. He was opposed to the idea
that a general registration of marriages would increase
civil marriages. He was surprised at the timidity of the
right hon. baronet in not dealing with that branch of the
subject, as it was easy to bring forward a measure that
would meet with the approval of the people of Ireland. The
provision for registering the marriages of the members of
the Church of Ireland and Protestant Dissenters might re-
main as at present.

Mi. HADFIELD hoped that equal facilities of registra-
tion would be granted to all denominations.
Mr. MO NSELL said the Scotch system of registration
had been found to work well in that country, and he thought
it would be the best system to introduce into Ireland, and
he urged on the Government to try it. The only difficulty
they had to contend with was the registration of Roman
Catholic marriages. _ _

Sir G. BOW YER approved of a complete registration of
marriages, but admitted it was surrounded with greater
difficulties than the registration of births and deaths Be-
fore they introduced a system of registration of marriages
they must get rid of the Irish law w th reference to mixed
marriages, which made it penal for a Roman Catholic priest
to celebrate mixed marriages. There would be time to con-
sider and discuss the registration of marriages after they had
decided on the registration of births and deaths. By divid-
ing the subject they were more likely to come to a satisfac •
tory c nctusion.
Mr. BAGWELL admitted it was the Roman Catholic
clergy who stood in the way of a system of registration of
marriages being introduced in Ireland; but he considered
this a most inopportune occasion on which to deal With the
question.
Colonel DICKSON saw no reason why marriages should
not be registered by the par ties interested in them. He
supported the atnendit,ent.

Mr M'MAHON felt quite sure it would be impossible to
establish a system of registration of marriages in Ireland as
long as the penal enactments prohibiting mixed marriages
by Roman Catholic priests were kept in force, but, then,
nothing could be easier than to introduce a clause in the
present bill abolishing those enactments.
Mr. I. BUTT supported the bill, and deprecated the off.
hand legislation which had been suggested by the hon. mem-
ber opposite.
sir It. PEEL quite agreed that it would be very impor-
tant, if it were possible, to establish at the same time
with the registration of births and deaths, a registration
of marriages; but the discussion which had taken pl.ce
had convinced him that the house was in tavour of the

bill going on as at present framed rather than he should
be charged by the house to introduce a subject which
would certainly require material alteration in the machi-

nery of the b,ll, and make all impraciicable. The proposal
of his noble friend would involve material alteration of the
marriage law of Ireland. The act of 1844 imposed great re-
strictions on a portion of the dissenting body in Ireland,
and they would never allow any exception to be made in
favour of the Roman Catholics until their own grievances
had been amended. He trusted that the house would pass
the bill in its present shape, and not put upon him the
painful task of seeming to endeavour to fix upon Roman
Catholics restrictions which were conscientiously distaste-
ful to them.

After a f_w words from several hon. members,
The house divided. The numbers were—
For the motion
Against

Majority -23

The house went into committee, and, on the motion of
Colonel DUNNE, the Chairman reported progress, and the
house resumed.

ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was recommitted, and an amendment proposed
by Sir R. Peel was agreed to.
DRAINAGE OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL.

This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
QUALIFiCATION FOR OFFICES ABOLITION

BILL.

This bill passed through committee, on the understand •
ing that the discussion on the bill should be taken on the
third reading, on the 4th of March

PARTNERSHIP LAW AMENDMENT.

The house went into committee, on the motion of Mr.

SCHOLEFIELD and a resolution was agreed t.) for bring-
ing in a bill for the amendment of the law relating to
partnerships.

REGISTER OF 'VOTERS.

Mr. LOCKE KING obtained leave to introduce a bill to
provide for an alphabetical index to the register of voters
in the counties in England and Viales.

THE DUCHY OF CORNWALL.

Lord PALMERSTON brought up the report of the
council of the Duchy of Cornwall, which was laid upon the
table.

The House adjourned at twenty minutes to one o'clock,

COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL.

A Court of Common Council was holden yester-
day in the Council Chamber, Guildhall. The Rignt
Hon. the Lord Mayor presided
THE METROPOLITAN RAILWAY.
The Coal, Corn, and Finance Committee brought
up a report by which it appeared the committee had
disposed of 18,000 out of the 20,000 shares held by
the corporation in the above railway, at prices vary-
ing from £l2 12s. 6d. to £l3 10s., and the reimit
was that this corporation had realised a net profit
of £32,000, after dedue ing interest for the time the
corporation money had been lying idle. (Hear, Lear.)
The report also recommended that the remaining
2,000 shares should be held by the corporation, as
this course would enable them to appoint members
of the board of directors, who would have an oppor-
tunity of watching over their interests. The report
also stated that the corporation would be entitled to
a certain number of new shares, and the committee
asked the court to allow them to do what was ne-
cessary in reference to this matter ; and at all events
to permit them to retain possession of the remaining
2,000 shares for the present.
Deputy HARRISON opposed the proposition for the
corporation to continue shareholders in the railway.
He said that in the first instance great doubts were
entertained whether it was a prudent course to have
connexion with any railway ; but, having done so,
and having realised a considerable profit, he consi-
dered there ought to be an end to the matter.
(Hear, hear.) They had heard already that the Me-
tropolitan Railway intended to raise £600,000 addi-
tional capital, and he thought the corporation ought
not to be parties to any railway speculations what-
ever, and it appeared to him the time had arrived
when the connexion between the Corporation of
London and the Metropolitan Railway should be
put an end to, and that the corporation should have
nothing to do with the raising. of any additional
capital, or any fresh spLculation connected with
this railway. (Hear.) The honourable deputy
concluded by proposing
a motion to the effect that
the committee should be instructed to dispose of the

remaining shares as soon as' they shout d consider it
advisable to do so.
Alderman SALOMONS, M.P.r seconder I the motion,
which appeared to meet with the almos t unanimous
approbation of the court.
Mr. NORRIS, M.P., however, erpresset tan opinion
he ot neighbourhoodthat, having regerd to the numer.uus rail way propo-
sitions at present before Parliament, man f which
proposed to come to the neighbourhood of .
tropolitan Riilway, it would be advisable toi retain
possession of the shares for the present, in Order
that some members of the corporation, might have a
board of directiors, with a
r-
right to act upon the
view to the protection of Zh!3 interestoi of the cor
ration and those of the pubi,:c.
Alderman LAWRENCE supported the report,
and observed that at present the Metropolitan Rail-
way was not completed, that no arrtngements had
yet been made to c,nnect it with the it
iptrowpaos at allsednew
dead meat market, and he considerec,l
events desirable to retain possession otc the remain-
ing 2,000 snares for the present. (Heat...)
Mr. H. L. I'AYLUR said that, it' he unders.t"d the
meaning of the motion, it did not go to the b.xtent
of directing the immediate disposal of the remaining
shares, but merely gave them (the committee) a
discretionary power to act in the matter when they
considered it advisable. (Hear.) He at the same
time considered it was not a proper thing for the
corporation to have anything further to do with
the railway, and that the shares ought to be die*
posed of as quickly as possible. (Hear.)
Mr. LUsK and Mr. Deputy FRY supported the
motion of Deputy Harrison, and expressed their
opinion that as so large a number of the shares had
already been disposed of, the sam course ought to
be aoopteo. with the remainder. (Hear.)
Ihe motion was eventually put 10 the court and
decla,ed to be carried, and the report, witn the Deo
cessary alteration, was then agreed to.