The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-10 00:00:00

SEA FISHERIES (IRELAND)•

In reply to Sir E. GROGAN,
Mr. M. GIBSON replied that the Government considered
it very desirable that the recently appointed royal commis-
ast
sion should extend its inquiries to the fisheries on. the co
of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
THE PURCHASE OF THE INTERNATIONAL

EXHIBITION.
Lord ELCHO desired to learn of the Chief Commis-
sioners of Public Works whether a complete survey bad
be :cm made by a competent surveyor of the Exhibition ;

and, if so, whether he would lay it on the table of the
house ?

Mr. COWPER replied that it had been car Jully and
minutely surveyed by Mr. Runt, the surveyor the board
of works. His estimate was moved for lase night, and
would be immediately in the hands of hon. tubers.
Lord ELCHO did nst wish to be troub e, but he did
not allude to an estimate ; had there been any report by a
competent surveyor ?
Mr. COWPER could not say whether there was any
such document in existence. He knew that the surveyor
had forwarded an opinion on the subject, but he could not
say whether it was in writing. He should, however, be
able to answer the question to-morrow.
THE EXTRA MORNING SITTING.
In reply to Colonel FRENca,
Sir R. PEEL intimated that the Government proposed a
morning sitting on Friday in order to take the Irish
Fisheries Bill.
ENGLISH CHURCH SERVICES (WALES) BILL.
Mr. WALPOLE postponed this bill till Friday week.

UNIFORMITY ACT.
Mr. BUXTON then rose to move the following resolu-
tion :—" That, in the opinion of this house, the subscrip-
tion required from the clergy to the Thirty-nine Articles
ought to be relaxed." The hon. gentleman trusted that it
would not be thought that he brought forward the motion in
a spirit hostile to the Church of England. The only test to
which he desired it should be put was this—would it injure
the Church of England, or would it benefit the Church ?
If its tendency would be to injure the Church, let the
house reject it by all means ; but if, on the contrary,
it were calculated to benefit it, then he trusted that no
prejudice would stand in the way of the adoption of the
motion. (Hear, hear.) He represented no section or
parity in the Church, and his sole object was to relieve its
clergymen in general from what many of them considered
a grievous burthen, and to open a way for many of its lay-
men who were now excluded from the ministry. (Hear.)
It was not solely a clerical question, it was much more the
question of the laity, and as such he desired chiefly to treat
it. He had nothing to do with the revision of the Liturgy,
or the Articles themselves ; what he aimed at was that the
clergy should be relieved from that portion of the subscrip •
tions that they were called upon to take which disquieted
many of them. Those lists or subscriptions were extremely
numerous. There were seven oaths upon the subject of
supremacy, six declarations of assent to the Prayer Book,
and nine declarations of assent to the Thirty-nine Articles,
the upshot of all being this : In the first place the clergy-
man was required to declare that he would conform to the
Liturgy of the Church of Edgland as by law established.
That was a fair and reasonable subscription. In a second
subscription he declared that he willingly and ex animo ac-
knowledged all and every the Thirty-nine Articles to be
agreeable to the Word of God, and gave his unfeigned assent
to the same. And by the third he declared his unfeigned
assent and consent to all and everything contained in the
Prayer Book. There was an essential distinction between
the two latter subscriptions and the first subscription. The
first was a promise of performance; the two others were de-
clarations of belief, and it was those which he wished to have
done away with. Those subscriptions were required of men
when they were young, and they all knew how apt young
men were to take up all kinds of crude theories, but which
died away under the advancing growth of common sense.
But in mature life they called upon these men to make the
subscriptions, and in the most unqualified form. He ad-
mitted the Prayer Book to be the most sublime of human
productions; but, taken as a whole, there must be many
things contained in it which it was hardly just to call
upon men to declare their entire and unqualified belief
in. With regard to the Thirty-nine Articles, though they
did not present so many technical points of objection as the
Prayer Book, still they had given rise to many great and
fierce controversies. (Hear, hear.) He would put it to those
who here and elsewhere were remarkable for their just and
generous characters, whether it was just to ask young men
to declare their entire belief in everything that the Prayer
Book contained. He denied their right to do it ; for it was
trespassing upon the freedom of men in a way that was un-
justifiable. It was only the fundamental doctrines of the
Church of England upon which they should require unifor-
mity of belief. Ho was aware that it was the opinion of
many eminent men that the best thing to do was to leave
the Church of England as she stood, and not to try to mend
matters wherever they found fault, The hon. member then
reviewed the history of the successive changes in the forms
of subscription at the Hampton Court Conferences in the
reign of James 1., and again under Charles 11., when an•
other turn of the screw took place, and it was laid down
that all the articles were to be taken in their true and literal
sense. The whole object of the High Church party in those
early days was to get rid of the Puritans; and finding the
subscriptions were not stringent enough for the purpose,
they set to work to devise the minute words to which he had
referred, requiring the clergy to give their entire adherence
to everything in the Prayer Book. The Act of Conformity
was another of the many atrocious acts of the time which
had been brought forward for a similar pmpose. He could
quote several passages from the writings of Dissenters dur-
ing the last few years, to show it was impossible that 20,000
clergymen could give their entire assent to everything in
the Prayer Book, which contained so many different com-
positions. For his own part he thought that young men
should not be called upon and almost forced to act in a way
contrary to what perfect truthfulness would require of them.
He thought it would be well for the clergy, and well for
the religions and intellectual life of the people of this
country, that the clergy should have scope and latitude to
think out their own thoughts. That liberty was denied
them at present. Men of original mind were apt to have
their thoughts and ideas cramped when they had to steer
within barriers like these subscriptions. And these hin-
drances met them at every step in their career. The curate
wanted to become a rector ; the rector an archdeacon ; the
archdeacon a bishop; and the bishop looked forward to pre-
siding over the see of Canterbury or York ; but those sub-
scriptions were always before them. It could not but be
painful to men accustomed to think for themselves to be re-
quired to repeat like parrots the phrases set down for them.
The result was to make men excessively timid, so that, in-
stead of leading the religions thoughts of the people, they
became afraid of taking a single step. There were a great
many men of original mind in the Church of England, but
their number was becoming less and less every year. At
Oxford the candidates for orders had decreased from 242 to
120, and at Cambridge from 270 to 178. He had with him
a letter which he received from a graduate at Oxford—a
man of ability, who would have been an ornament to the
Church—in which he complained that he had been forced
by those subscriptions to adopt a profession infinitely less
congenial to him than holy orders, He had no doubt that
many hon. members opposite would in the course of the
evening say that this was a stale and shallow cry of the
" Church in danger." He believed the Church of England
was every day becoming more beneficent and more beloved ;
but yet, withal he admitted there might be danger before
her. If she chose not to be a National Church, but a nar-
row and sectarian. one ; and if she stubbornly resisted all
reform, and stood in the way of human advancement, human
speculation, and the discoveries of science, not with strong
and gentle reasoning, but with paroxysms of fear and rage
—(hear, hear)—and if she discloses the most pitiful sight of
all—the wish to persecute without the power—then she
might find herself forsaken and spurned by the English
people. Bat if, on the contrary, men found in the Church
of England a welcome and a home, if she opened wide her
gates and let people enter freely, then they might hope
that their children's children would cling to that Church as
their fathers had done when they sealed their faith in her
with their blood in the great days of old. (Cheers.)
Mr. G. DUFF seconded the motion. They ought to
approach questions of this kind as politicians, for he appre-
hended that religious questions would form their principal
business for some years to came. They were no longer an
assembly of the Church of England, nor of Protestants, nor
even of Christians, save so far as civilisation had infused its
spirit into Jew and Gentile alike. The recent judgment of
Dr. Lushington, although it gave greater latitude within
the Church, still it put a stricter form of interpretation upon
the articles and formularies than before satisfied the con•
science of persons. The result of this was to give rise to
many painful struggles during the last few months. The
prOpoeal of his hon. friend was a very moderate one, and
did not interfere with prosecution. The bishop would have
the power to prosecute the clergyman, and the clergymen
would be able to prosecute each other. But if the resolu-
tion was agreed to, one element of malignity would be taken
away from the clergy, for although one man might call his
neighbour a heretic, he could not himoctocnaellluded ylu
by alluding
t
"perjurer."
(Hear, hear,) The hon. member
thepre
swsianngt
ao fh co op ne ctihl iaatt iao nf
uotnu
rteh ep a t
ministerof
wt ho eu . sahpopposi,nand
tetse;
bishops than those of the Tiverton type. (A laugh.)
Mr. M. MILNES rose to move an amendment, the
effect of which was to limit Mr. Buxton's resolution to
mtheembsuebr said h
j ectof suebsecnritpetritoanind so
toe the Prayer Book. Breovoakr.encTehfeorhtohne.
subject, and aclmiration for the moderate tone and man-
ner in which his hon. friend's motion had been brought
forward, that he should be sorry to take any course
which looked like opposition to it, unless he felt con-
vinced that the subject was one involving so many great and
important considerations that it could not be too closely
discussed. Indeed, he should be unwilling to say but that
one day some such motion as that of his hon. friend would
be
twhietmbinthtebeepirirt of compromise, given
ngrreed to. The Thirty-nine Articles, though having
rise to fierce contests long ago, still they bore upon
sphere
manArtiofcsemle,anaynd a great desire to include
and the object of his hon. friesnwde'sre
different orders and reli-
gions opinions. These the laws of the Church,
might be admitted to administer these laws, and act upon
them without being required to declarea their adherence to
ttiitten law
everything contained in them. The ad
resolu-
tion in its integrity would be to establish the o of the n
—the law of public opinion—to the overrulinge ofe written
law. He believed that the 'kw of
public
opinionth was far
g.radually interpreted ins more and more liberales
more intolerant than the law of the Church, The articl
had been
sense; and the freedom of the Church would not in any
degree be increased by diminishing the authority of the
articles. It was of enormous importance that the freedom of
thought of the Church of England should not be subjected
to any sacerdotal inquisition; and it was admitted that the
articles were now open to a very liberal interpretation. The
object of his amendment was tean the action of the
resolution to the Book of conaXa Prayer; and in t4at way

he believed it would in no degree derogate from the power

and influence of the Church of England.
Sir G. GREY was anxious to state early that the Go-
vernment considered it inexpedient to adopt either the reso-
lution or the amendment. At the same time, they were un-

willing to meet either by a direct negative, acknowledging
that he found great difficulty in ascertaining what was the
precise object of the resolution. The hon. member for
Maidstone said that all subscriptions and declarations should
be abolished, but the hon. member did not draw sufficient
distinction between subscription to articles and the declara-

tion of conformity now required by law. He believed it
was difficult to state what those subscriptions amounted

to, and he admitted the law was in an unsatisfactory

state—for it required subscriptions varying in terms and
character, and unnecessarily imposing obligations upon
clergymen. It would be much better if a more simple and
uniform declaration were adopted. (Hear, hear.) He
understood his hon. friend to say that, though he would
abolish subscription, he would still leave the clergy liable to
penalties for teaching doctrines contrary to the Church.
Now, if that were so, he did not see what relief was afforded
to the clergy. With regard to the subscription to the

subject.

articles, if the Church was to have a clear standard of doc-
trine it was not unreasonable to require from a person seek-
ing ordination a declaration that he agreed in and should
teach that doctrine. As to the Book of Common Prayer,
the law required a declaration from the clergyman that it
_ _

contained nothing contrary to the Word of God, and might

be lawfully used in divine service and the administration of
the sacraments ; but then the Act of Elizabeth said nothing

about the Book of Common Prayer, and therein a difference

was established between the Book of Common Prayer and

Articles. He agreed with the hon. member for Pontefract
that the declaration which a clergyman was compelled to

make on presentation to a benefice was an unnecessary
burthen upon the conscience; and that it would be most

desirable if such declaration were confined within the limits
of the 36th Canon. In conclusion, the right hon. gentle-
man stated that the adoption of either the resolution or the

amendment would only lead to uncertainty. Under the
circumstances, he would ask his hon. friend the member for
Pontefract (Mr. M. Milnes) to withdraw his amendment,
and in that case ho would move the previous question.
Mr. M. MILNES then announced his willingness to
withdraw the amendment,

Mr. HADFIELD, however, objected, and so the amend-
ment of the hon. member for Pontefract was negatived

without a division.

Sir G. GREY then moved the previous question as an
amendment on the motion.

Mr. NEWDEGATE expressed his regret that the Go-
vernment had not taken a more decided :course. If the
proposal of the hon. member for Maidstone were adopted
the result must be that the members of the Church of Eng-
land would be subjected to the utmost hilitude of teaching
at the hands of their clergy. Let the house take warning
from the condition of religion in the United States of Ame-

rica, and see that vagueness of opinion conduced in the end

to religious violence and intolerance.
Mr. WALPOLE considered the house was placed in a
position of some embarrassment by the course taken by the
Government. He should have preferred to see the resolu-

tion negatived. He agreed that the quest ion concerned the
laity more than the clergy. Was the house or the country
prepared to go in that direction ? He thought not. Then
they heard of another book called " Essays and Reviews."
What were the alterations proposed by some of the writers
of that book ? They contended that all tests were obsolete,
and should be repealed, and that Scripture should be the
sole basis of the religion of the Established Church. Those
were propositions which could not be countenanced for a
moment by sincere supporters of the Church. The laity
must have some guarantee that, first, they should have no

doctrines taught but those of the Church to which they be-
longed ; secondly, that there should be some regard to cle-
rical order and efficiency in the appointment of ministers of
the Church; and thirdly, that the clergy who had to offi-
ciate in the Church should preserve its doctrine pure and
free from corruption. There had been another book recently
published which advocated the abolition of all subscription,
but leaving the Articles and Liturgy the same. What
would be the consequence of that ? Were clergymen to
hold one set of opinions and preach another ? Were they to
continue receiving their incomes from a Church whose
principles they did not sincerely believe ? With regard to
the subscription, he did not believe that was the cause of
the decrease of candidates for the Church. The truth
was, the emolument was so small that men of energy and
intellect went in search of other pursuits of a more pro-
fitable character. With regard to the Comprehension Bill
of the time of William 111., he was surprised to hear it
spoken of in the way it had been, when all the best histo-
rians, including Lord Macaulay, agreed that the rejection
of that bill had been the means of securing the civil and re-
ligious liberties of the kingdom. The Act of Uniformity,
at the time it was passed, had proved a great boon to the
community, for from the time of Henry It 111., through the
reigns of Elizabeth and Edward VI. to James 1., the whole
country had been in such a state of confusion upon the sub-
ject of forms of public worship, that as one writer observed,
" they knew not what they had to worship or to depend
upon." He was not, however, going to defend all that was
done, nor the penalties that were imposed upon Noncon-
formists. What he did defend was a system which pre-
vented dissension and confusion, and gave to the people a
religion as pure, tolerant, and comprehensive as eternal
truth itself. (Hear.) He thought the Government should

state whether they proposed to make any alterations, and
what they were to be ; otherwise he should feel bound to re-
sist 4the motion. The hon. gentleman, speaking of the
Church, said, " Truth and peace her courts attend." If
truth and peace did attend the courts of the Church of Eng-
land, his advice was—Do not imperil the one nor disturb
the other. (Hear.) In the soundness of her doctrines and
in the purity of her worship she was of all Churches the
most tolerant in her principles, the most charitable in her
construction, and the most comprehensive in her philan-
throphy. (Hear.)
Mr. MORRISON hoped the object of the hon. member
for Maidstone (Mr. Buxton) would be attained, so that the
differences now prevailing might be put an end to.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE thought an unfortunate amount of
haze had been thrown over the question, arising chiefly
from the difficulty of knowing what was to be the pelicp of
the Government. He hoped the motion would be negatived
without a division.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
notwithstanding the remark of the hon. gentleman who
spoke last, the course adopted by the Government had met
with very general approval, and he did not mean to say that
the Prayer-book and the Articles were perfect, but their
contradictions were to be taken in the same spirit as the dif-
ferences in Holy Writ, and he was inclined to believe that
the task of revision was likely to be taken with the slightest
advantage, or chance of success. The people ought to know
what the teachings of their pastors were to be, and if it ever
came to the point that we were to discuss whether the minds
of individual clergymen should be set free from all fetters
and restraints, and be the free arbitrator of what he should
teach the people, it would be far better, before entering on
the subject, that we should break down the venerable fabric
of the Church altogether. The principle of subscriptions had
grown up from time to time from the bona fide necessities
of the Church since the Reformation, and their existence
without change for 200 years was a proof of the extreme
gravity of the question, and if they were to be dealt with it
should ba in such a definite form that any one could under.
stand them. The effect of the amendment was, he thought,
to draw an invidious distinction between the Prayer-book
and the Articles. They were told subscription had failed to
attain its end—that of unity of feeling ; but that was to be
said in some sense of all human laws. But the question was,
had the system worked well for its purpose, and given that
degree of unity of action which qualified the Church for its
work , and he was not prepared to say there was any rea-
son why we should declare this the sore spot in her history.
By this system, the Church was generally loved by the
country, and she had passed successfully through great
vicissitudes that had strained and tried the efficiency of
other human laws , but that was no reason why the system
should not be amended, though it might be that they were
slow to vote its condemnation, on the ground that it had
failed to accomplish its aim. He demurred to the proposi-
tion that it was better to substitute a judicial penal
system for the present subscriptions, as not likely to
maintain in any adequate manner that unity of belief,
however liberal, within the Church which it was desirable
to attain. That principle was in existence before the Act
of Uniformity, and before they returned to that system they
must look to the powers by which it was maintained, and
ask themselves whether they were prepared to see them
revived. And though the faggot was not the fashion in
those days, certain sharp instruments were which were ap-
plicable to certain parts of the body, and they could not
bring those periods in support of the judicial system, unless
they considered how far they would assimilate those means
of prevention to the purposes of the present day. Nothing,
he thought, would more tend to narrow the Church than
the frequent provoking of courts of justice to lay down in-
terpretations of faith; and his opinion was, that such a
course, if adopted, would materially weaken and injure the
Church. The Prayer Bo rk and Articles, taken together
and fairly interpreted, formed one harmonious and consis-
tent whole. He could not disguise the fact that young men
of ability did not now come forward and join the Church,
and it was the more striking, because about the period when
he was an under• graduate of Oxford, or shortly after, an
opposite state of things prevailed in so marked a degree that
it might alone have been said at that time that the flower of
the youth of England were rushing forward and offering
themselves for the Church. A serious change, however,
had taken place in that respect, and it had been attributed
othen agti tvreanc t
bi oyn
ts
hoof
ct hhen cr
oi vhi l. s eßr voi cet
hover theh t, phooowr
erve
emr
,u nt
he
e-
rtoati
reason lay deeper, and they must look to the , eligious and
moral causes, and not to the system of subscriptions, or it
would have been felt in other periods, especially forty,
thirty, or twenty years ago, when the Church passed
through convulsions so sharp and searching that they might
almost be described in the language of Scripture, " which
divides one from another, soul and spirit." The Church
7941 a especially the University of Oxford—was in the agony
omrfligiotui controversy. They saw the rise of eminent
that it was necessary
ac.tued, who,
wron wrong adhering
reaehing mature life, almost suddenly
announced to their followers that they had found they had
ahould become
f to the Church of England, and
mem_ r their own salvation that they
bend an antagonistic church, And the

result had been an almost total destruction of the confidence

'or a time of the young in those whom they ought to be able
o rely upon and follow with confidence on account of their

age, ability, and learning. By the authorised construction
that had been attached to the articles, subscription had be-

come more stringent ; but if, as Dr. Stanley urged, a more
liberal or enlightened method of interpretation was granted,
such as was in use in the time of Archbishop Howley, the
grievance of subscription would be very light. He thought
the Government had done right in not meeting the question

with a direct negative, and he agreed in feeling that any
measure of the kind ought not to take its origin in Parlia-

went, but first pass in review elsewhere, not that he doubted
the power of Parliament to deal with it as with every other

Mr. HADFIELD said that the effect of subscriptions had

been to exclude the most pious part of the clergy from the

Church, and it was time all those difficulties and distinc-

tions that were so ruinous to the Church should be swept
away. The Church was not equal to her duties, or in ac-
cordance with the spirit of the age in which they lived; and
she was like the old patriarch, whose hand was against

everybody, and everybody's hand was against him. He

claimed more attention from that house for the large mass

of Nonconformists. There was not that intercourse there

should be between the clergy and the people, and he was
convinced that the reforms in the Church should go much
further before religious peace could be established in the

country.
Mr. B. JOHNSTONE pointed out that there wore two
ways in which an institution might be defended—by in-
variable and steadfast resistance to every demand, or
wise and timely concession. The first was the policy of
Rome at the Council of Trent, and the result was the
establishment of Reformed Churches all over Europe.
The lesson should not be overlooked by the Church of
England. (Hear, hear.) There could be no question that
there was a falling off in the number of candidates who now
presented themselves for holy orders. In 1841 the number
was 606, in 1861 it was (nly 489, and he could state posi-
tively that he had known many young men at the univer-
sities who had been unwiling to enter into the ministry on
account of the rigidity of the subscriptions which were re-
quired of them. (Hear, lear.) In the university sermons,
it was true, it was endeavntred to soften that rigidity, but
young men felt that such a course was paltering with their
conscience, and declined t( accept an interpretation contrary
to the language itself. (I-:ear, hear.) He admitted that a
national establishment should have tests, but they should
be such that grave men might conscientiously take. (Hear,
hear.) Was it difficult or impossible to frame such tests ?
Or was it difficult to have a form of subscription which ac-
tually implied what it was meant to imply by it ? He did

not believe in any such difficulty or impossibility, but he
did believe that, if they maintained the present rigid tests,
they would soon not be able to get any young men at all to
enter the ministry of the Church. (Oh, oh, from the Op-
position, and hear, hear.) The tests had been imposed by
Parliament, and it was proper that the same assembly should
relax them; but if they were to relegate the matter to any
other tribunal, it,would be relegating it to the Greek kalends.
(Cheers.) _ _ _

Mr. LEFROY said, as he was the only representative of
he Irish Church present, he could not give a silent vote on

this question. He had heard with pleasure the speeches of
the Secretary for the Home Department and the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, beth of whom enforced in strong language
the necessity of maintaining the bulwarks of the Church,
and on that ground he gave his hearty support to the pre-
vious question.

Mr. HENLEY acid that two extraordinary statements
had been made by the hon. member for Plymouth and the
hon. member for Canterbury. One of those gentlemen
took upon himself to say that he believed the parties who
subscribed these tests did so with mental reservation. He
did not know how any hon. member could take upon himself
to say that of others. (Hear, hear.) The hon, member for
Canterbury made a similar statement of young men in the
universities, and said it was preached to them that they were
not to take these tests in the plain sense of the words. He
happened to live neartho university, although unfortunately
he was not a young man, and he thought if such things
had been done they would have come to his knowledge. A
great deal had been said of fewer young men taking holy
orders, but one important element in the discussion of the
point had been left ou; of consideration. Ten years ago the
House of Commons stripped the Church of its great nurs-
ing mother, the fellowships of the Universities, They were
very good fellowships, tied that might be a good reason why
so many young men dfl not present themselves for orders
now as before the provsion which bad been left by pious
men of former ages had been taken away by the impiety of
Parliament. (Hear, aid laughter.) The hon. member for
Canterbury said that tley only asked for very little, but no
one in the course of tle debate put his finger upon any
point in the Formulares and Articles and said, " That is
what we don't want to subscribe to." What was it they
wanted ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the latter
part of his speech refered to some nice point about a man
conforming to a thing and not believing it. (A laugh.)
If a man conformed to;he use of a thing and did not believe
it what sort of moralit; was that? They should remember
that they had an Estaolished Church, and that it enjoyed
large revenues ; but if there were larger revenues probably
there would be more persons offering themselves for ordina-
tion. He could have wished the Government bad met the
resolution with a distinct negative, for he feared that, after
th speech of the Home Secretary, the public would say there
should be some alteration. All he would say was, whatever
might be the intellect of candidates for orders, if they had no
honesty he would rather hey had remained away. Better
to have honest people, although they might not have an
abundance of intellect. (Cheers.)
Mr. H. SEYMOUR supported the resolution, and
pointed to the Episcopal Church in the United States as a
proof of what might be deem by a general form of agree-
ment in the doctrines andlitttrgy in keeping a church to-
gether without tests.
Lord R. CECIL said he had listened attentively to the
debate, and he could hardy make out the reason why young
men in the universities did not go into the Church in such
large numbers as formerly. Probably the best reason was
the taking away tae fellowships. He understood that no
change in the formularies was asked for. by these young
men. He did not believe that the hon. member for Canter-
bury (Mr. B. Johnstone had rightly described the state of
mind of the young men of Oxford. He had no doubt that
a great intellectual movenent was going en, and that there
was great unwillingness o enter into the Church, but the
cause of that lay much deeper than a mere unwillingness to
subscribe to the Articles of the Church. The truth was, it
was not mere subscription that was objected to, but it was
the Articles themselves (Hear, hear.) There was no
doubt, owing to the subddence of those great controversies
which had occupied the world during the last 30 years,
much more of unbelief ii these days than at any period
during the memory of the oldest member of that house ; and
it was not an unbelief as to small points, but an unbelief
which went to the very foundation of religion, and with
which no compromise could be held. (Hear, hear.) But
at the same time he did not believe that under the present
system the clergy were compelled to tamper with their
consciences. For 200 years, and during six generations
those tests had been cheerfully subscribed to by the clergy ;
and they might depend apon it that the experience of 200
years was of more value than the experience of the hon.
member for Canterbury. (Laughter, and cries of " Hear,
hear.")
Mr. DISRAELI said that he could not at all agree
that moving " the previous question" was the proper mode
of meeting the motion of the hen. member for Maidstone.
The hon. member counselled the adoption of the motion in
deference to the power of public opinion, while the hon.
member for Pomfret (Mr. M. Milnes) argued from a totally
opposite point of view, that public opinion was not to be
trusted as a guide in the matter. The House, however,
after hearing the statement of the Minister, agreed neither
to support the motion nor the amendment ; it consented to
a course which, without explanation, would give an implied
assent both to the motion and to the amendment. Sub-
scriptions to the Articles and the Prayer Book were ob-
jected to, because it was opposed to that comprehensive
character which the Church should assume and maintain.
No one was more in favour than himself of the comprehen-
sive character of the Church of England, but he would
add the condition that the comprehensiveness of the
Church of England should be based upon Church prin-
ciples. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Maidstone
and others had referred to the Act of Charles 11. as inju-
riously affecting the comprehensive character of the Church,
and ancient legislation was denounced as the cause of their
present situation. Well, he doubted very much the justice
of that criticism. He doubted whether it was possible, in
this, or perhaps in any other country, to prevent what is
dissent. He looked upon dissent as a weakness incident to
humanity. (Laughter, and hear, hear.) Even in the case
of Roman Catholicism, he might show, if necessary, as
much dissent, as much heresy, as much schism as in the
Church of England, although in the Church of Rome
dissent had been occasionally more forcibly suppressed.
(Hear, hear.) What, then, were they to expect in a coun-
try the infallibility of whose religion was founded upon free
inquiry, and where, although religion was supported by the
civil power, it was by a civil power founded upon the prin-
ciples of civil liberty ? (Hear.) No modern English states-
man had contemplated that though the Church of England
should be founded upon a Catholc creed it should, at the
same time, comprehend a Catholic union. A standard of
religious truth should be established in the country that
should influence the conduct of men by the highest con-
ceivable sanction, and that had been accomplished by the
enforcedisma
Church of England during the last two centuries. But if
the experiment of a comprehensive Church had not been
very successful on the Continent, what was their chance of
success in England ? Nobody could doubt that the attempt
et ihvae tnaet
th laste s s
N wouldnaotNational
oondbal
ye
most
Church
might
ruhoet
uhi
is ac
become
systeme sfocomprehensive,act
tothe
religion
of
would be able to comprehend it. ( A laugh.) 'With respect to
the Act of Uniformity, that had been so much maligned, it
was futile to conaider it in the abstract. It must be looked
at in connection with the history of the period, and then
some just ideas might be formed of its usefulness. The
truth was that there was no ode of the important mea-
sures introduced by their great ancestors that might not
be impugned or perhaps improved. He had no doubt that
if he were to give notice that on Friday next lee would bring
forward the case of the Bill of Rights, with a view to its
amendment, he would r194.1p oe,t a taps case against it,

and get some supporters in and out of the House. (A laugh.)
But of course no sane man would think of doing any such
thing. With respect to the decrease of candidates for the
Church, he could not believe it was owing to the sordid
motives by which it had been attempted to be explained.
He had been young himself once and had committed many
follies—(a laugh)—but he could assure the house that the
question of the more m fewer "nuggets" he might make
was not then the influential motive in his career. The
House of Commons, however, was not an ecclesiastical
synod, and he did not wish to see the time of the Long Par-
liament come back, when hon, members brought their
Bibles in their waistcoat-pockets, and enforced their parti-
cular dogmas with a quotation. At the same time, due
homage must be paid to the memory of the great statesmen
and churchmen of the age of the Stuarts, whose energy and
perseverance had procured the passing of measures which
had produced to the country two centuries of tranquillity.
(Hear.) Upon the question of subscription, he was gene-
rally opposed to the arguments of the hon. member for
Maidstone. How could they have a Church without a
creed ? How could there be a known and acknowledged
creed without some symbols of communion ? (Hear,) In
fact there must be subscription, er there was an end of the
Church. The revision should not originate in either House
of Parliament, but with the Queen as the head of the
Church, who should initiate a Royal commission, and then
first submit its report to Convocation, whose basis should
bo extended by the introduction of the Irish Chureh and
lay members, if necessary. Convocation, in its present
form, had, since its revival, done many things deserving
of commendation, and had acted, contrary to predic-
tion, in an eminently practical manner. He condemned
the course the Government had taken in meeting
the motion with the previous question. It was the boast of
this country that she had reconciled order with liberty, but
in her religious affairs she had the greater boast that she
had combined orthodoxy with toleration. But what security
had they for retaining it if they adopted the course that
had been so invidiously recommended by so many means,
and by so many channels ? He preferred to stand on an-
cient ground—on that Chureh which lives in the historic
conscience of the country, and which had come down to us
with her title deeds which all could understand, because
our ancestors had contributed to their creation. He had
heard no satisfactory cause given for the proposed change.
Mr. BUXTON having replied, said he should not divide
the house on his motion.
Sir G. BOWYER had never in that house taken part in
a discussion on the discipline and doctrine of the/Church of
England, and, while defending his own Church, he had
never said a word offensive to any other person's church or
religious belief. On the present occasion he merely in.
tended to refer to some observations of the right hon. gentle-
man the member for Buckinghamshire. That right hon.
gentleman had said that a church must have a creed and
must have formularies, and from that he deduced that a
church must have an act of uniformity. But he must say
that if he were now in the Anglican Church, as he once had
been, he would not attach any value to the Act of Unifor-
mity. His Church had not an act of uniformity, and he
hoped it never would have one. What did our Lord intend the
Church to teach, when He told His apostles to go and teach
all nations, and that he would be with them to the end of the
world ? Did He intend it to teach an act of uniformity ?
Did He intend it to teach the Thirty-nine Artic.es, which
were not a dogma ? Did He tell it to teach for political
purposes or to teach as many errors as possible ? No, with
diversity there must be error. The duty of the Church
was to teach the truth. What did the Catholic Church
do ? She proclaimed a certain doctrine, and she said to
her followers, "If you do not believe this—you are
wrong." He knew why hon. gentlemen laughed; but he
Was stating a fact. The debate had afforded him considera-
ble amusement. He had heard a great deal about the com-
prehensive character of the Established Church, and about
what was politically wise ; but he had not heard one word
about truth. The right hon. baronet the member for
Buckinghamshire had said that there were differences and
schisms in the Roman Catholic Church. He told the right
hon. gentleman that there were neither in that Church.
There were differences of opinion in the Roman Catholic
Church with regard to discipline and politics, but not with
regard to doctrine. There were differences among Catholics
as to the temporal power of the Pope, the celibacy of the
clergy, and other questions, but they did not differ upon
any question of dogma. As to the monastic orders, there
were differences between the Dominicans and Franciscans
on certain scholastic points of theology and science, but
they were perfectly agreed on all questions appertaining to
the Roman Catholic religion. That religion had always
been one and undivided, and those who differed from it had
always been ejected from it immediately. This was the
only honest course—to say, "I preach the truth," and
eject those who did not believe with you. But if men put
on a false appearance of unity which did not exist, shelter-
ing themselves under ambiguous words and uncertain for-
mularies, that was not honest. (Hear, hear.)
The "previous question"—in other words, that it was
inexpedient to consider at that particular time the motion
of the hon. member (Mr. Buxton)—was then put and
agreed to without a division.
THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY.
Mr. DALGLISH, in moving that a select committee be
appointed to inquire into the constitution of the Board of
Admiralty, and the different departments under its con-
trol, reminded the house that the defect in its manage-
ment was no new subject, and that it had as yet made
little progress towards improvement. The report of the
committee which sat in 1861 showed that no progress had
been made in improving the system of the Admi-
ralty. He might go further, and say that in the year
1863 nothing had been done in the way of improvement.
The hon. member referred to the blue book of the com-
mittee, and to various documents, to prove the necessity of
altering the constitution of the Admiralty. But it was not
the Admiralty alone that required alteration, but the entire
system of their dockyards and shipbuilding establishments.
Mr. JACKSON seconded the motion.
Mr. SCOURFIELD opposed it.
Mr. BENTINCK thought the hon. gentleman 'who
moved for the committee was over sanguine with regard to
the benefit to be anticipated from its labours.
Sir P. O'BRIEN supported the motion.
Lord C. PAGET said there was no disposition whatever
on the part of the Government to evade full inquiry, but ho
thought the proposed committee would be too official in its
character to effect much good. If there was a case against
the Admiralty let them leave it out, and he would be pre-
pared to meet it. The First Lord, of the Admiralty was
wholly and entirely responsible to the Government of the
day, and there was a complete and effectual check on the
improper use of the patronage. The want of responsibility
in the dockyard at the time of the Royal commission with
reference to the ship-building department had since been
altered, and it has now been placed on the Surveyor of the
Navy, who had to account to the Admiralty. There was
now an effecnial check on the expenditure of the dockyards.
It was neecessary to have naval men for controllers and in-
spectors of the navy, as none but naval men could under-
stand the duties to be performed. The noble lord also
referred to many other of the recommendations of the Royal
commissioners, most of which had been adopted or were
under consideration, and he assured the home that the Ad-
miralty were using their best exertions for the benefit and
efficiency of the navy, and to make such alterations and
improvements as would tend to the economy of that branch
of the service. The Admiralty did not intend to give up
the building of iron ships in private yards.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY moved the adjournment of the
debate.
Mr. CONINGHAM wished to know when the noble
lord the Secretary to the Admiralty would make his state-
ment on the subject of Greenwich Hospital.
Lord C. PAGET replied that he had never expressed an
intention of making any such statemont.
The debate was then adjourned without a division.
MISAPPROPRIATION BY SERVANTS.
Mr. STANILAND obtained leave to introduce a bill to
amend the law in certain cases of misaapropriation by ser
vents of the property of their masters.
LISBURN ELECTION.
On the motion of Mr. COLLINS, the minutes of the
evidence taken before the Lisburn Election Committee were
ordered to be laid before the house.
SHEEP AND CATTLE (SCOTLAND) BILL,
This bill passed through committee.
SUPPLY.
Mr. STANSFELD having brought up the report on
supply,
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE again objected to any further
expenditure on Alderney, and moved the adjournment of
the debate.
The motion was agreed to.
VOLUNTEERS BILL.
The consideration of this bill, as amended, was fixed for
Thursday.
AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE TREATY BILL.—IN-
LAND REVENUE BILL.
These bills were then read a third time and passed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPPLEMENTAL BILL,
This bill was passed through committee.
OFFICERS OF ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
DOCKYARDS PROTECTION ACT AMENDMENT
BILL.
This was passed through committee,
The bills for which leave was obtained were then
brought in and read a first time.
The house adjourned at ten minutes to two o'clock.

A letter from Broussa (Asiatic Turkey) states that
the number of people who have arrived there for
bathing is greater than frr many years past. Among the
latest arrivals are Onm. Pasha, Nafiz Pasha, ex-Minister
of Public Worship, and Riza Pasha. The harem of Faud
Pasha is also passing the season at Broussa,
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POLICE INTELLIGENCE—June 9.

MARYLEBONE.-ATTEMPTED MURDER OF A WIFE.

—Patrick Noonan, an L ish labourer, aged 36, residing at
6, Southampton-terrace, Gospel Oak-fields, Hampstead,
was charged before Mr. Mansfield with the following at-
tempt to murder his wife, Elizabeth Noonan, and also with
assaulting John Way, police.constable. 410 S, William
Larter, 325 S, and William Woodbridge, 306 S, whilst in
the execution of their duty to apprehend him.
Anne Morris stated—l live in the same house as the pri-
soner and his wife. About half-past four on the previous
afternoon I heard them go upstairs to their own room, where
they talked very loud as if quarrelling, and shortly after-
wards I heard a very heavy fall upon the floor. Almost
immediately after the fall the prisoner's girl ran downstairs
screaming murder, and saying that her father was chopping
her mother's head open. I ran upstairs into the room, and
saw the wife in a sitting position on the floor. Her head
was cut and smashed about,and she was smothered in blood,
which was pouring from her wounds. Her arms, which
were very much cut, were encircling a child, which was
also covered with blood. Prisoner was sitting on a chair
opposite her, and by his side was a chopper in some blood.
Prisoner was quite sober. I left the room to call assistance,
when prisoner followed me down, and I said, " What have
you been doing ?" He replied, "What am I to do when
she comes in drunk ?" Atter saying this he ran off, He
had no sooner gone than his wife came downstairs, the
blood coming from her wounds, down her clothes, and on
to the stairs. Two doctors were called in, who advised her
instant removal to the hospital.
Mr. Mansfield—Was the woman drunk?
Witness—l cannot say, for I did not see her till after this
shocking affair.
Mr. Mansfield—Was she sensible ?
Witness—Yes, sir.
Mr. Mansfield—ls the wife given to drink ?
Witness—Well, sir, she has a drop now and then.
Prisoner—She (witness) knows very well that my wife
has been drunk every day for a fortnight, and she is great
with other men.

Mr, Mansfiold—lt is bad for a woman to give way to
drink, but still the law does not justify you in chopping
your wife's head off.
Medical certificates were put in showing that it was im-
possible for the wife to be brought to the court, as the re-
moval might cause death.

The chopper, like a butcher's, was produced, and on it
were both blood and hair. The bonnet which the poor
woman had on at the time was produced, saturated in
blood, and cut through and through by the chopper.
Prisoner, who behaved in a most sullen manner through-
out, was remanded, and the charge of assaulting the police
was deferred to the next occasion.

The attempt at murder took place at half-past four, and
prisoner was not taken till eleven o'clock, by Way, 410 S,
in tha Maldon-road, Kentish-town, when a desperate en-
counter ensued.

LAMBETH,—CAUTION TO DOG. STEALERS.--Charles
Jones, a middle-aged man, of sinister appearance, and a
notorious dog stealer, was brought up on remand, and
finally examined before Mr. Elliott, on a charge of stealing
a liver-coloured retriever dog, valued tit ten guineas, the
property of Captain Frederick Henry Rich, of the Royal
Artillery. From the evidence it appeared that, on the 21st
of last April, the prisoner had been observed by several re-
spectable inhabitants in the vicinity of the residence of
Captain Rich, the prosecutor, in New Park-road, Brixton,
followed by the missing dog, the animal having on, at the
time, a deep brass collar, with the name and profession of
its master conspicuously engraven on it. Bills were printed
and circulated, offering a reward for the dog, but nothing
was heard or seen et the animal or the prisoner until Mon-
day week, when he was apprehended in the same neigh•
bourhood, while endeavouring to steal a gentleman's
coach-dog ; and can his way to the station-house he en-
deavoured to get rid of some liver he had in his pocket, and
which he used for enticing dogs away.
Mr. Elliott observed that there coull not be the slightest
doubt he stole the dog of Captain Rich, and that he was
a practised deg-stealer, and sentenced him to six months'
hard labour at Wandsworth House of Correction.

THE FIRST ATTEMPT AT SUICIDE FROM NplV WEST-
-3IINSTER,BRIDGE.—WiIIiam Bailley, a young man of
gentlemanly appearance, and whose friends were said to be
of high respectability, was charged with attempting to
commit suicide by jumping from the parapet of the West-
minster-bridge into the river Thames.

From the-testimony of the mate of one of the penny
steamboats, it appeared that on Sunday at noon, while the
the Palace clock was striking 12, the prisoner was seen to
jump from the top of the second arch on the Surrey side of
Westminster-bridge into the water. The tide was flowing
rapidly at the time, and the prisoner not knowing how to
swim must have been drowned if assistance had not been
promptly rendered him. The prisoner had also run a second
risk, for had he fallen but two feet nearer the shore, he must
from the state of the tide have come in contact with a pro-
jecting part of the foundation of the bridge, and been
smashed to pieces.

Ile was remanded for the attendance of his friends.

SOUTHWARK.—THE ROBBERY OF A THOUSAND
POUNDS WORTH OF JEWELLERY.—Louisa Gifford, alias
Orme, alias James, was brought before Mr. Combo for final
examination, charged with being concerned with a man not
in custody in stealing a leather bag containing watches and
jewellery worth £l,OOO, the property of Solomon Reuben,
from the North Kent Railway Terminus, London-bridge.
Mr. Piesse prosecuted, and the prisoner was undefended.
It appeared, from the evidence given on a former occa-
sion, that the prosecutor was a traveller, and on the 4th of
May last he left his house at Islington with considerable
property, for the purpose of going on a journey in Kent and
Sussex. On his arrival at the North Kent Railway Ter-
minus he put town a leather bag containing gold and silver
watches, gold chains, earrings, &c., worth about £l,OOO,
while he entered the booking-office to get his ticket. On his
return from the latter place, after a minute's absence, he
missed the bag, and although every inquiry was made about
it nothing has since been heard of it. On the 7th May the
prisoner and a man, whom she stated to be her husband,
were apprehended by Hills, City police-constable 150, in
Aldersgate-street, for having in their possession four sets of
earrings which they had attempted to dispose of. They
were twice examined before Aldermen Humphery, and dis-
charged, the property being detained by the constable. Two
days after that tile City police received information of Mr.
Rueben's loss, and baying communicated with him h 3 iden-
tified those earrings as a portion of his lost jewellery. Fur-
ther inquiries were then made, and on Monday morning the
25th ult,, the City officer discovered three boxes at a house in
Lambeth .square, Lower-marsh, and shortly after that the
prisoner was apprehended by Hardringham, 163 L, as she
was about to enter that house. She was questioned about
those boxes, and eventually said they belonged to her and
her husband, Joseph Gifford, who had lodged in that house.
The boxes were opened at the station-house, and in one of
them two gold chains and two sets of ear-rings were found,
which the prosecutor identified. It was also discovered
the prisoner and the man Joseph Gifford had lodged together
as man and wife with Mrs. Hutchins, of Ponsonby-place,

Vauxhall•bridge-road, from the 27th of April to the 23d
et May, and that they had given the landlady there
another set of similar earrings. No knowledge as to the
whereabouts of Gifford, her husband, could be ascertained,
although the police made diligent inquiries all over the
country for him.
The defence set up was that the prisoner was the lawful
wife of Joseph Gifford, the man who was in custody with
her in the City, and a certificate of their marriage was pro-
duced. After the removal of the boxes to Lambeth-square,
he absconded, and the prisoner could not be held respon-
sible for his acts,

On the part of the police it was urged that the prisoner
had a previous husband still living at Bristol, and that she
had left him some time ago to live with Gifford, who had
twice served four years' penal servitude, and was one of the
cleverest thieves in the kingdom. They (the police) be-
lieved the prisoner helped him in :he pre,ent robbery, and
they considered that she was amenable to the law.
11r. Combo said his opinion was that the prisoner was not,
under the evidence adduced before him, therefore he should
order her to be discharged.
Hills, 150 City police, asked what he was to do with the
property found in the box ?
Mr. Combo asked the prisoner if she claimed the
jewellery.
She replied that she did not. It was placed there by her
husband.
Mr. Reuben having sworn to that property, his worship
directed it to be handed to him.

Mr. Piesse, the prosecutor's solicitor, informed his wor-
ship that two savings bank books were found in the boxes,
one showing that £3O had been deposited in the name of
Joseph Gifford, and the other £lO in the name of Louisa
Gifford, on the 7th of May, three days after the present
robbery. He asked that those books might be given up to
his client,
Mr. Combe told him he could make no order on the sub-
ject. The police, no doubt, would use their own discretion
with regard to those books as well as the rest of the pro-
perty in their possession.
The prisoner was then ordered to be discharged, but she
was immediately taken into custody again by the City
officer and conveyed to Guildhall to answer other charges
of a similar nature.

THE ALLEGED MURDER IN KENSINGTON.—
DISMISSING A JURY.—Yesterday afternoon, at two
o'clock, Mr. J, Bird, the coroner, and the jury who had
been empannelled to inquire into the cause of the death of
a newly-born infant, alleged to have been murdered by its
mother, assembled for the fourth time in the board-room of
Kensington Workhouse. It will be remembered that on
the last occasion the jury were unable to agree to a ver-
dict, after having been locked up for several hours. Four
of them were for a verdict of wilful murder, and nine for an
open verdict of found dead. Yesterday the jury informed
the coroner that they had not agreed to tkeir verdict, and
there appearing no probability of their doing so, the coro-
ner dismissed them, leaving the case in the hands of the
police, The mother, a young woman named Jenner' is
still confined in the workhouse, she being too ill to be re-
moved.