The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-20 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The House, on the motion of Sir G. CLERK, resolved
itself into a Committee of Supply.
A vote of 603,200/. for the victualling of 22,000 men
was agreed to.
The House resumed, the Report was brought up, and
the Chairman obtained leave to sit again on Mouthy next.
DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.—ADJOURNED
DEBATE.

The Order of the Day for renewing the Debate on this
question was then read.
Colonel SIBTHORPE—'When the important measure
introduced last Session to the House was brought forward,
the Right Hon. Gent. who proposed it, defended it on the
ground of expediency ; he wished that the Government
would attend to the same feeling in this instance, because
be was convinced that it would lead them to meet the uni-
versal wish of the people. It was retorted upon those
Members who most pressed this point, that it was their
unwillingness to lower their rents. Now, for his own
part, he bad no unwillingness on that head, because he was
convinced of the necessity that there was for such a pro-
ceeding. One of the most striking instances of the present
state of things was to be found in the wool trade; and of
what was taking place in that trade, Lincolnshire was no
small criterion. The price of that article was now re-
duced to about 55., and 250,0001. were annually lust to
the country by the falling off. Cattle prices had also fol-
lowed in the same train, and the farmer now was unable
to procure for his fat beasts what he had formerly given
for his lean ones. These positions had been contested,
because a Mr. Bull had taken upon him to state the con-
trary, and, in consequence, Mr. Bull, and Mr. Jacob, and
Mr. Gib]ett, went to Lincoln. They, however, got such
a confounded rowing there, that he believed they would
never shew their faces there again. It was said that if
they were to grant this inquiry it would be the means of
deluding the people. He could not, however, agree in that
observation ; it was not in mortals to command success,
but they might at least endeavour to deserve it, arid though
relief might be beyond their power, at all events they
were bound to do their best for that object. It was
true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done
something by the taxes he had remitted, and he thanked
him for it, though he feared that they would afford but
little benefit to those who needed relief the most, as the
farmers were unable to pay their labourers any wages.—
It was evident that the country required relief ; and if it
was not afforded by, that. House, the sooner, es an Hon.
Member had said, they were all thrown into the Thames
the better; and he believed it.—(A laugh.)—The Duke
of Wellington had endeavoured to make out that timber
was now at as high a price as it ever bad been. He could
state the contrary from his own knowledge; and if there
were to be imports to the extent of 550,000 loads, as bad
been mentioned, they would very soon be unable to get any
price at all for it. The Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Hus-
kisson) had taken occasion to Fay that some of those who
thought as he (Colonel Sibthorpe) did, were currency-
mad, but he believed he might retort the charge by alleg-
ing that the Right Hon. Gent. was free-trade-mad.—
(Hear, hear.)—Another flourish that had been made was
about the gold and silver plate ordered for use.; but he
thought that that had very little to do with the real pros-
perity of the country, and only reflected shame on those
who might have employed their money so much better,
when there were so many unfortunate persons who had not
even an earthenware plate to use, and if they had, bad
nothing to put on it--(A laugh, and hear, hear.)—The
only satisfactory point connected with the subject was,
that there was to be a further reduction of taxation, though
he did not think that that had been carried to a sufficient
extent. The petitions of the people were decisive on the
question of distress.

Colonel DAVIES—There appeared to him to have
been quite a sufficient case mode out for the appointment
of a Committee; but after having heard what had fallen
from the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury and the Hon.
Member for Newark with respect to the question of cur-
rency, he said that it would be impossible to vote for the
motion without broaching that subject, unless it was an
understood thing that the currency question should not be
entered upon in the Committee. Ile was convinced that
the people would not he satisfied if they found that inquiry
was refused because they were at variance upon one point ;
and yet many Members would be compelled by the obsti-
mu (if he might use the term) of those who brought for-
ward the motion on the question of currency to vote un-
willingly against it. With reference to the distress, he
knew that there was great distress among all the manu-
facturers. In particular he was surprised to hear the
Right Hon. Gentleman say the other evening that there
was no distress in the iron trade, when, if there was one
trade of the kingdom more distressed than another, it was
the iron trade. He knew that several furnaces had been
blown—

Mr. BERRIES explained, as we understood, that his
information had been derived from an iron master.

Colonel DAVIES, in continuation, thought that the
anonymous authority of one iren-master ought to have no
weight with such a well-known fact as the distress of the
iron manufacturers. The Hon. Member then proceeded
to read an extract from a newspaper, to show that a con-
siderable body of weavers had emigrated from Paisley, and
had carried with them our manufactures to New York.
He believed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member
for Liverpool, in whose speech he generally concurred, that
our exports and our business had increased ; but the in-
crease had been at the expense of the weavers, who, while
the increase had been going on, had hardy been able to
subsist. The low prices which were ruinous to them were
beneficial to the annuitants, the pensioners, the holders of
the national debt, and all salaried persons. They profited
by low prices. Lawyers and physicians also did not re-
duce their fees, and among them there was no distress,
and they did not complain—but all the productive classes
including the labourers, were suffering and complaining.
One Right Hon. Gentleman had quoted the quastity of
timber imported as a proof of our increasing trade; but
what dill that show? Why, that foreign timber was used
instead of British timber. He knew that in his own neigh-
bourhood no timber could now be sold. He admitted with
his Gallant Friend who spoke last evening, that the price
of commodities in the foreign market regulated the price
here ; and admitting that, he said it was the business
of Government to make the producers here as much
as possible on a level with those on the Continent, by
a reduction of taxation. At present the foreigners
who used to be the consumers of our commodities were be

come our rivals in the markets of other countries, and met
us on equal terms in the markets of South America and
the East. He was glad to acknowledge that something
bad been done towards reducing taxation, but he did not
think removing the beer duty would he a great benefit to
the lower classes. They were generally in so low a con-
dition that they had no money to spare for buying beer,
and must be satisfied if they could obtain food, clothing,
and a lodging. He should wish to see a still further re-
duction of taxation. The House ought to begin by giving
the people cheap bread, and it ought to reduce the as-
sessed taxes, and to take off the malt duties. To meet
these reductions he would reduce our expenditure; and
with an honest House of Commons—and this was neces-
sary—a reduction of our expenditure in the Army, the
Navy, and the Colonies, to the amount of four millions,
might be made. To cover any deficiency lie would have
recourse to a property tax of two per cent., which, if ex-
tended to Ireland—and he did not know why it should not
be—would be amply sufficient. But he did not think
that reducing the ditties on sugar, on tobacco, and other
articles, would occasion a diminution of the revenue.—
We had, on former occasions, tried the effect of lowering
the duties, and we found the result was to increase the
revenue. He would implore the Hon. Member, if he
were present, to withdraw his motion. lie had only
made these few remarks, because he had been anxious to
explain why he could vote neither for the motion of the
Hon. Member nor the amendment of the Hon. Baronet.
Mr. HUDSON GURNEY fully concurred in the view
taken by the Member for Essex of the causes of the dis-
tress. He fully concurred in most of the statements sub-
mitted to the House last night by the Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Liverpool, who bail unanswerably proved
.that the measures of Government relative to trade had
been substantially right, and that the Government could
not act otherwise; That Right Hon. Gentleman had
clearly shewn that one great cause for our distress was the
alteration in the money system. With that alteration a
great reduction ought to have taken place in taxation ; but
the Government had not been allowed to take off the taxes
which most pressed on the industry of the country, and
were compelled by the gentlemen of that House-to- take off
the property-tax. They bad compelled the Government
to relieve the higher classes. The Right Hoe. Gentleman

• had on a late occasion blamed the country bankers as
having caused the distress, because they had net made
sufficient advances; but they were justified in withdraw-
• ing assistance when they saw that from the deteriora-
tion of property it would not pay them their ad-
: vances. At the same time the Right Honourable
Gentleman thought the Bank of England had only acted
prudently in withholding assistance; so that he blamed
the weaker body for not doing that which he praised the
• stronger for not doing. The alteration in the currency
was a greater spoliation—if spoliation that could be called
which enriched no one—than had ever been witnessed in
any country ; and it was caused by resuming a standard
which had not been in use in the country for '23 years.
He did not mean to blame the Bank of England for the
Suspension Act of 1797. It was not caused by the Bank
being unable to pay its creditors, but by the Government
king unable to pay the hank. In speaking of the Bill of
1819, he was sorry that the Right Hon. Member fur
Liverpool was not in his place, or he should have atternpteri
to prove to that Right Hon. Gentleman that every altera-
tion in the currency was injurious to the poor. Ile wished
to caution the House against indulging a wish for a return
to a paper currency. There was no species of currency so
had, so destructive of prosperity, so liable to fluctuations,
and to CEIUSC mischief, as a paper circulation payable on
demand. lf, when it were issued, gold was not demanded,
the issuers were encouraged to issue in excess; and then
when a panic came the first check ruined them—they
were unable to meet the demand; and then the whole was
destroyed.—(Hear, hear.)—The lion. Member expressed
himself, we understood, on the whole, to be unfavourable
to the motion.
Mr. L. FOSTER said it appeared to him that nearly
all the Members who took any part in the debate on this
question, were of opinion that the distress was to be as-
cribed to the diminution of the currency.—(Cries of " No,
no.")--He repeated that many gentlemen had expressed an
opinion to that effect, and he was satisfied that it was
founded on very erroneous conclusions. He would ask
them to look at the state of trade, and at the condition of
the various branches of our manufactures. In the iron
trade they would hear that so much iron hail never been
required before. In the silk trade they would hear that
the importation of the raw material was greater than it
had ever been, and in various other manufactures they
would perceive steady demand and constant employment.
But then, with all this demand, and with the employment
of a vast deal of capital, there was still a great quantity of ,
capital in the country which could not be advantageously
invested, and which yielded but a very small return. Stipa
pose thee. that this capital thus unemployed was still fur-
ther increased, what would be the consequences? Wl•y,
that a host of mere adventurers would be let into the or
dinar), paths of commerce, the profits on capital still fur-
ther diminished, and that capital itself must unnecessarily
be increased. The trade of the country did not require
currency so much as customers. He thought that great ex-
aggeration had gone forth on the subject of distress in this
country, as well as in Ireland. He had made very minute in-
quiries on the subject, and he found that in Dublin and Lon-
don there were great numbers suffering privation; but instead
of selecting these places as affording proofs of the general dis-
tress, they ought rather to be
.mentioned as the places .
in which that distress was most to be found. He had
consulted a great many persons connected with Ireland ;
and from all the information he could collect, he was satin-
fled that capital was never so abundant—trade never so
flourishing, and rents never better paid in Ireland than at
the present moment. It had been said that the population
of Dublin was much distressed. There were, he believed,
about two thousand mendicants in that city at present--
and even in the most prosperous times the number was
not touch less ; but there were also seven thousand opera-
tives unemployed, and suffering under great destitution.
This, however, was a state of things to which that city
had been subject at all times. There were at all times
instances of depression and prosperity in the population
of Dublin even in the most flourishing times, and there-
fore this could not be taken as ant indication of universal
distress. Before the restrictions were removed from
trade in Ireland the industry of the people was cramped
front want of demand, and since they had been removed
it was cramped in the same manner by the rivalry of
the manufacturers of England. In Bandon there was
also a good deal of distress, but it was mainly to be attri-
buted to the failure of an attempt to establish the cotton
manufactures—an attempt made on a small scale, and not
persevered in with any extensive capital. In Belfast, however,
that trade had taken a deeper root, and he was happy to
say that it presented instances of large establishments
flourishing with as much vigour as any of those described
by the Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Phillips)on a former occasion
as proving the prosperity of the cotton trade in Lancashire.
The district of about 60 miles round Belfast was full of

weavers in active employment, and the band-looms were
even earning about 43. a week, being pretty much the
same as in Lancashire. The Hon. Member, after again
praising the course adopted by Government in reducing
taxation, concluded by observing that he considered the
inquiry not to be desirable.
Mr. HOLDSWORTH, although persuaded that the

motives of the Hon. Mover, and of those who supported
the motion, were most conscentiou,, yet felt that the in-
quiry could lead to no beneficial result. With respect to
the manufactures, the distress experienced was in many
cases occasioned by the transfer of them from one part of
the kingdom to the other, which was constantly going on.
He was convinced that the great pressure of distress was
not so much on the poorer classes as on the classes imme-
diately above them—on the small shopkeepers, and small
agriculturists; but he feared that the difficulties under
which they were labouring were beyond the reach of legis-
lation. There was a want among them of that commer-
cial confidence which was essential to prosperity. The
great evil under which the farmer at present laboured was,
that in the existing state of the currency he was unable,
when involved in any diffictilty, to obtain that assistance
which could alone afford him relief. Bad as the resource
might be, he was satisfied that an issue of small notes was
the only mode in which the farmer could be assisted in his
distresses:

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN—With reference to the
reduction of taxes, thought they could not have been bet-
ter selected, nor did be know how they could go farther.
Had the proper reductions been made by Lord Castlereagh,
at compound interest by this time the country would have
saved 100,000,000. Not a Session, however, had Passed
that Government had not made promises which they had
as Constantly broken, and he had no confidence whatever
in their promises. The distresses of the country were very
great, and they were not to be disbelieved because a few
Gentlemen in that House took letters out of their pockets
from different places, mentioning that workmen were in
employment. These were partial statements. The far-
mers, manufacturers, and tradesmen, were unable to pay
their rent and taxes, and the distress was universal. This
could not altogether be occasioned by machinery, for the
depression had taken place on all goods, prior to the great
introduction of machine labour ; but it was the alteration
of the currency which had added 40 per cent. to the depre-
ciation that had previously existed. He did not know
how Government could take off taxes to the extent of the
alteration of the currency, as the debt was so large that
there ought to be a tax imposed upon property. Was the
regulation of the currency by Ministers to be perpetual ?
Were Ministers to legislate, and say that all others who
had meddled with the currency before them were fools and
idiots, and that they would do what no man must here-
after touch or examine ? If a Committee were granted, be
saw no magic in:the sound of currency to prevent his exer-
cising his faculties upon it. The Bank Restriction Act
had done ali the mischief. If the House would refer
to the speeches delivered from the Throne, they would see
that they were full of fallacies. At the commencement of I
the Session of 1826, the Speech contained promises and
strong expectations of prosperity, not one of which bad I
been fulfilled. The next year the Speech confessed the errors
of the last, but yet expressed another confident hope that
the abatement of the distresses of the country would be pro-
gressive. Since this bankruptcies and every other com-
mercial evil had increased. In another Speech his Majesty
was made to announce a considerable increase of revenue,
when it wasknown to have decidedly decreased.—(A great
deal of noise was heard at the bar.) He hoped that he
stood on equal terms with others in that House, and that
those Members who had constituents would feel too much
for their sufferings to treat such subjects with levity.—
(Hear, hear.)—For his part, having what very few in that
House had, a numerous body of constituents, he felt that
he should but ill discharge his duty to them if he abstained
from expressing his opinions upon the causes of their dis-
tress.—(Hcar, hear.)—After the King, in his Speech of
1829, had spoken of the improvement of the revenue, it
had fallen, and the country had gone on from bad to worse.
It was the -duty of Government to satisfy the country, by
appointing a Committee of Inquiry. If the Committee
were to sit up-stairs, it would be a scene of party fun, the
political economists fighting down prices to the ruin of
trade; but Government might send impartial men into
the Committee, who would be fortified by their authority.
The Right Hon. .7.4ntleman opposite had displayed con-
siderable adroitness last night. He might, in the language
of the ring, be called a troublesome customer ; he shifted
his ground so rapidly that there was no putting in a blow.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said there was an increase in
our imports for some years past—this was a mere fallacy
—because - there had been for the last 30 years an in.
crease in our imports, for they had kept due pace with
the increase of our population. Again, the Right Hon.

Gentleman, in alluding to the increase of exports during the
five years from 1815 to 1820, had actually taken the
imports because they suited his purpose better. Ile did not,
however, mean to accuse the Right Hon. Member of un-
fairness; he presumed it proceeded from want of informa-
tion.—(Laughter.)—Next, he had to remark, that the
Right Hon. Gent., in his statement, bad altogether passed
by 1826, the events of which did not make in favour of
his views. He (Alderman Waithmao) denied that there
was any improvement in our exports—true, there had
been an increase of one million in official value, but there
was a falling off of seven millions in real value. He would
now address himself to what was called free trade. He
had been represented as an enemy to it, and as having
abused it as such in the truse sense of the term. Never-
theless, he had never done so. He did not know how he
was reported : he only saw one paper, and in that he was
reported very briefly; but he was was in the recollection
of the House, and Hon. Members would be aware of the
truth of his assertion. He had not abused free trade, be-
cause there was no such thing; any common shopkeeper
could tell them there was no such thing. The Right Hon.
Gent, had said free trade was a nick-name. So it was.
Free trade was founded on reciprocity—a new word, by
the bye, invented by Lord Shelburne, during the progress
of the treaty with France.—And what did Adam Smith
—whom he looked upon as ►he best writer on the sub-
ject—say about free trade?—(Laughter.)—Did not Mr.
Pitt, and all the other great men of his time, oppose
free trade without an equivalent? The Right Honour-
able Gentleman had said that we had nothing to ex-
change for the products of other countries but our labour;
and yet he was introducing foreign manufactures, to drive
our own out of the market. They had all, doubtless,
read an authentic history, entitled " The Life and Opi-
nions of Tristram Shandy, Gent." In this it appeared
that Mr. William Shandy, the father of Tristram, was a
very profound and subtle philosopher; and he discovered
that the world had been for centuries labouring under an
egregious error, in bringing children into the world with
the wrong end foremost.—(Loud laughter.)—Now, the
Right Hon. Gentleman had also his theory; and he had,
moreover, the opportunity of putting it in practice ; and,
notwithstanding its absurdity, he still clung to it ; but, if
Mr. Shandy had tried his experiment he would nut have
been fool enough not to give it up.—(Loud and continued
laughter.)—The Hon. Member then proceeded to state
that the labouring classes were taxed, on some articles,
five or six hundred per cent., and complained of the une-
qual pressure of the public burthens, in illustration of
which he observed that the servant girl was charged a
duty of Is. Bd. upon the garment for which she paid 4a.,
while the mistress was only taxed to the same amount for
the robe that cost 30s. He totally disagreed with the
Right Hon. Gentleman in the views he had advanced re-
specting the state of the country, and in those opinions he
had last night advocated, which were not those he had
once entertained. He thought the best way of convicting
a man was out of his own mouth ; be would therefore ap-
peal from Philip drunk to Philip sober. Ho would ac-
cordingly read an extract from a speech delivered by the
Right Hon. Gentleman in 1814. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman then said be was averse to go into a Committee
on corn, but that the petitions were an numerous that he
could not refuse to accede to their prayer.—(Cries of
question. )—The Honourable Member then read the
following extract:—" With respect to the encou-
ragement which ought to be afforded to the farmer,
it should be considered that there was now a great
diminution in the value of motley; and that the capi-
tal necessary for carrying on of farming operations
must now he double to what it was before the war. The
Noble Lord (Lord A. Hamilton) deceived himself, there-
fore, if he thought that things could return to what they
were before the war. This was one of the moat dange-
rous errors which could be entertained. What was likely
to be the permanent charge of the country, now that the
war was at an end ? The whole expenses of this country,
including all our establishments, only amounted to sixteen
millions. Would this produce no alteration in the money
value of the articles? When gentlemen talked of the in-
creased price of bread, was not every thing else raised in
proportion, and that not in consequence of the high price
of bread, but the amount of taxation? It was impossible
for the country to return to the prices before the war.—
It had been said the obvious remedy was to lower rents.—
He had not the good fortune to be a landholder, and he had
no interest but that of the public in general in view. The
proportion of the gross proceeds of land which now came
to the landlord, however it might be represented in money,
was now much less than what it was in 1792. Previous
to the war, in a farm of moderate extent, the farmer con-
sidered himself requited if he made three rents from it.
But it was necessary in the case of such a farm now that
the farmer should make at least five rents to be enabled to
go on. If even the whole rent of the country were re-
mitted, it would be impossible to return to the
prices before the war. He was not afraid to declare that
the people of this country must not expect, be the law
what it may, that, with our burthens, the price of bread
can ever be less than double what it was before the war."
—The Hon. Member proceeded, amidst cries of question !
Ile thought taxation ought to be made general ; they must
either raise the prices to the taxation, or they must bring
down taxation to the prices.—(Noise—cougbing—
cries of question.)—He could assure the Hon. Mem-
bers who were coughing, that if the effort was
not painful to himself, he wool,' speak fir another hour.
—(Continued coughing.) He believed that the Hon.
Members who were interrupting him had no constituents
to represent, and had not the interest of the people at
heart. If he was talking nonsense, he might be exposed;
and if his arguments were bad they might be answered;
but he thought that it reflected little honour on young
gentlemen who had received a University education, and
on sprigs of Nobility, to attempt to put down a plain man
who was doing what he conceived to be his duty.—(Hear,
hear.) It was true he knew little—be had not been
blessed with the advantages of those Hon. Members—in
fact, he possessed nothing except what he had gained by
his own labour and assiduity; but those hours which
others devoted to cards and the bottle, he had app:ied to
the acquisition of useful information.—(Laughter, and
cries of " Question.") Labour, he said, in this country
was taxed at 74 per cent., and therefore the raw material.
By the measures of trade that haul been adopted, the peOple
were thrown out of employment. They might as well
bring some thousands of Frenchmen to work in England.
The country could not in his opinion go on year after year
with depreciation and distress ; he should accordingly, for
one, vote for going into Committee; he would rather,
however, that Ministers would inquire of individuals who
were capable of giving them information, and come down
to the House with some plan of their own. As for the
reduction which had taken place in taxation, he thought it
would not be of the least effect in reducing the sum of
public distress.

Mr. TYLER, of his own knowledge, could say, that
the silk trade was in a most deplorable state, and he could
not deny that the suffering of the people was great; and
he considered that it was a great aggravation of the public
distress to have Hon. Gentlemen get up and endeavour to
fritter it away. The silk trade, a most important branch
of the commerce of the country, was in great distress,
and the necessity of relieving it would be manifested when
it was considered that half a million of persons were em-
ployed in it. The Right Hon. Gentletoan opposite had
talked of that trade as a new creation ; but if it was so,
it was a branch of industry that had been rapidly increas-
ing for fifteen years preceding that in which the Right
Hon. Gentleman's measures had been adopted. Since
they had come into operation there had been a great re-
duction in it—a reduction amounting, since 1828, to 20
per cent., and, since 1827, to 30 per cent. It was true,
that lower prices would alone enable us to compete with
foreigners; but how were people to go on with prices
lower than they were at present? If he were called on to
state what were the causes of the present depression of the
manufacturing interest, he should not say that it was en-
tirely owing to the late measures, hut partly to them, and
partly to the position in which the country stood at the
end of the war.

Mr. BRAMSTON and Mr. Peel rose together; the
cries for the latter were very loud, but the Right Hon.
Gent. gave way, and Mr. Bramaton addressed the
House. A few days since he had had the honour of being
returned to that House from a very large and important
agricultural county, from whence he came convinced of
the reality and prevalence of public distress. The dis-
tress, indeed, was not universal, but it was abundant, by
far too abundant. He had entered those walls an advo-
cate for inquiry, but after he bad listened patiently to the
arguments used in the course of the debate, he must say
that it appeared to hint that the desire for inquiry was
arrested by the state in which the discussion was now
placed. There were two matters which the Committee,
if appointed, must take into their consideration—cur-
rency and taxation. As to the first, although the princi-
ple of the measure of 1819 might have been wrong, or
might have been too hastily acted upon, yet, after it had
been acted upon for eleven years, a return to the old sys-
tem would only be productive of inconvenience.—(Hrar.)
--Another objection to a return to paper currency was,
that it would have tt:e effect of advancing the price of the
produce of the soil. As to the question of taxation, he
must express his concurrence with the statement of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and his belief that the Go-

Term:neat had made reductions to as great an extent as

prudence would allow.—(Hear, hear.)—He should vote
against the Committee.
Mr. LOCKHART on every ground should support the
motion for a Committee.
• , •
Mr. W. HORTON said that his Committee had been
refused on the ground that the inquiries involved were
too extensive—an objection that he thought particularly
applicable to the present motion.
Mr. ATTWOOD said the House were not called on-to
inquire now what were the causes of the present distress,
and the speech of the Right lion. Member for Liverpool
had, therefore, been out of place. It would hare been
more appropriate in the Committee. The question was,
whether there did exist that degree of distress and suffer.
ing that demanded the attention of the House. He should
have preferred a Committee of the whole House, and to
have had evidence given at the Bar, as more suitable to
the magnitude of the occasion. He would take the state
of the country from the speeches of those from whom he
differed. Hs would take it even in the mitigated language
used in the Speech from the Throne, and of which the
President of the Board of Trade had told them be had
the confirmation in his pocket. If what that Right Hon.
Gent. produced as confirmation was to be called confirmae
tion, never was any so unworthy of the original document.
The Right Hon. Gent. said that he had received letters
which had been sent him from different parts to inform hiM
that the King's statement of the condition of the country
was correct, although that statement was in direct opposie
tion to the voice of the people. If the Ministers thought
that there was but a trifling amount of distress, lie thought
the patient attention with which the House bad listened to
these discussions must have convinced them of their error.
The proposed Committee was objected to, because it way
so extensive in its nature, that the corn laws must form
One of the subjects of inquiry. Why, were they not in--
quired into among the people, and were not the people die
videti on that question ? He must quarrel with the speech of
the lion. Member for London (Mr. Ward), who had given
them only half of his opinion. That lion. Gent. had said
that rents must fall one-half, but he lal not told
the reason why they must do so. He (Mr. Attwood)
would supply that deficiency, the fall arose from the alters-
tion of the standard of value. The late Bill had, in fast,
fixed the amount of the value of wheat at 40s. or 50s, a
quarter. The Hon. Gentleman must know that the landed
interests of this country were under engagements from
which the moneyed into were free; and he ought to know.'
that a fall of one-half in their rents would occasion the dee
attention of the landed proprietors., He would not ssf
whether the measure of diminishing the standard of value
was necessary or not ; hut he would assert, that as far as
the landed proprietors were concerned, it was a direct cor,
fiseation of one-half of their property, and that a formal
confiscation of one-half would not produce a more corn-.
plete effect. The rate of interest of money had been stated
as a proof of improvement in the country, but lie begged
to deny that the rate of interest in the London market Wag
any criterion of the rate of interest elsewhere, governed at
it was in. London by stock speculations and a variety of
other circumstances, which left its changes, without any
known rule by which they were guided. The conduct of
Government respecting the currency had operated as .1,,
confiscation on the property of the landed man for the
benefit of the moneyed man. The Right Hon. Member
fir Liverpool had contended that the question was too
mighty and too extensive for inquiry by the House of
Commons ; but did it become the representatives of the
suffering people to occupy themselves only in imposing
taxes anti voting supplies, until ruin became inevitable,
and from one end to the other the country only exhibited
the spectacle of a struggle for the spoil. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, in the course of his speech, had quoted pri-
vate letters, but it would have been far better if he ha"
referred to the petitions of the people from Glasgow, Bir-
mingham, Renfrew, and many other parts of the kingdoms
He hail said at the time that the contents of those letters
would be heard with satisfaction by the House; the only
satisfaCtion he (Mr. Attwood) had derived from them Wag
a conviction that the whole theory of the Right Hoot
Gentleman was fallacious. In their petitions the
people not only expressed great distress, but great dis-
trust : they demanded a Reform of Parliament ; and let
it not be forgotten, that that demand no longer came from
a decided minority. The objection formerly was to the
original constitution of the House of Commons, and to
this the triumphant and conclusive answer was, that
although imperfect in construction, it was perfect in prac-
tice. Now, however, that reply was inapplicable, for the
character of the House of Commons was changed : it no
longer dealt with the interests of the people for the benefit
of the people, and the disposition of the people was to
deal with the House as it dealt with them. The 658
Members of which it was composed were, no doubt, re-
spectable in their private capacities--sufficient .in elo-
quence, and earnest in midnight debate; but the people
felt and did not scruple to assert that in their collective
capacity they Were incompetent, corrupt, and partial, and
ncgtigent of their important functions of guarding and pre-
serving the national welfare. lie (Mr. Attwood) could
very well account for the reluctance of the Right Hon.
Member for Liverpool to enter into the inquiry. He bad,
said that for the last thirty years lie had been more or less
engaged in the transactions of the country; but he had
forgotten to add, that lie had only influenced its councils
during the decline of its prosperity. Quorum magna
pars fui, he might well claim to be during the whole
period of calamity, but his connection with public affairs
was evidently slight during the period of its prosperity.
It did not, however, become the House of Commons to
take its notion of the real condition of the people from any
individual. The representatives of the people ought to
communicate their deliberate opinions to the Ministers of
the Crown. At this moment an important crisis was
hanging over the country—not commercial, but financial
and political; and no more fatal error could be in-
dulged than that the Government was to be guided
by individual views and partial interests. The only
salutary course was pointed out by experience, and
upon this point the Right Hon. Gentleman had reminded
the How.e of the tremendous difficulties with which the
country had had to stt uggle at former periods. He bad
talked of the Mutiny in the Navy, of the Rebellion in Ire-
land, awl of America rising in monstrous and unnatural
arms. In those struggles, however, the strength and re-
sources of the country had been more than equal to the
claim, upon them, and the result was triumphant.. What
was the contrast at this moment? After a long_continu-
ance of peace, when the people hoped for ease and relaxa-
tion, and for a reduction of their burdens—those burdens,
undo r the pretence of diminution, had been insidiously and
most onerously increased. Nevertheless, he called upon
the House of Commons to discharge its most important
duty—to exert its deliberate wisdom—to vindicate its an-
cient character--and to endeavour to discover, by inquiry,
what was that mysterious power which blasted the efforts
of industry, deprived labour of its just reward, and peace
of all the blessings by which it ought to be accompanied.
Let it ascertain what had rendered this country, once the
awful safeguard of Europe, now its acorn and opprobrium
—a byword for weakness and vaeillation. It was rho
first duty of the House, without a moment's delay,..to com-
mence the investigation, and to learn and proclaim. to the
people the real causes of their sufferings. The most ridi-
culous attempts bad been made to account for the diaastrous
change, and the had harvests of 1621 and 1529 had been
mentioned, as if a frost or a south-west wind were capable
of effecting the ruin of a nation. Would the thrice-told, tale
of
n overpopulation angtariondbuectrioern o
ivefdrn?
acOhirney b
wronlclop
i!be,:ouecoen(i
calamity, and that it was fit to introduce some new law
ttotdliemdith
tahtetieme i
employment of the steam-engine ? Was
the notion again to be broached, that bad bankers had
destroyed the country? Or were they now to be called
upon by the issue of notes to retrieve the nation they had
before ruined? It was quite clear that the Brenda Banks
had not answered the purpose for which they were esta-
blished ; and now, perhaps, resort was to be had to Joint
Stock Banks, although it had been formerly argued thitt
the panic of 1825 had been produced by Joint Stock Com-
panies. In this hour of distress, unexampled in our time,
lie begged to recall the attention of the House to what had
been its conduct during the last few years. It bad been
engaged, among other things, in eetataishing,a system of
free trade • and what had been the consequence?.. That it
nivel world. Next, PaeliaineoS
ptaothienteicesstal:att a
nittisherteurnriki-lfro:30;
otrlelnerdenreadtiozesrosefifthteh7ocrlodm,
common
shit'alvhaitagad' sgthhetremiGensjp,greel-cotas;:ytt oue edcnkhbiryt
otfeaa: ilftnithhientehhemeihvid tamperingo f withGover
nt:ee n monetary o 71:t ah rye
c 5,131:
d
rtueennititcilY'l°hinadtdeoli;yetnea an n w
subjectedsim
material but a new value had beet
substituted. The object had been to give what was gullet
raemwehmolescorln theactiarctutlhaattinmg medium,
moment
twas given the last and yet let the-Ifou
stroke to the ruin of the country, and all claeies *ere in-
volved in the general calamity. The Right Hon. Ge it.
had stated that distress existed in foreign countries; and
if that were the fact, it was the duty-of those •Govarn-
meats t, inquire and to remedy. It Was impossible that
Great Britain could be in her present condition Of pov,rtf
'
and misery without producing an injurioui effect upon
other nations : it must be felt in America, Indiai Chine,
and in almost every corner of the universal globe-
At this late hour, and alter the ample discussion thu
question had already undergone, he would.only, itt.cenelo':
sion, ca'l up n the House to hear in mind,- that'll,. 03!1
midst of the triumphant majorities which carried the pleis
tion of the change in the currency there were found mea°l;

itetp

subject,
Right
would
directly
any °the
pre and
titular i
templati,
be Prude
Vert to

upon by
ing, and
meat.
be touch
was not
importtu
Indeed,
he thou
advantal
victual
this nut!
in

rden4,
ly and
upon
)rtdot

is an-

had
:..alled
r bad
Janke
esta-
Joint
that
2om-

time,
Chad
been
!rn of

fteep and long experience, and of great sagacity, who did
rot concur in the policy and justice of that change—who
•warned Government of the dangers to which it was about
to expose the country, and reminded it of the debt of 800
millions contracted in paper, and which according to the
pending measures, was to he repaid in gold. These indi-
viduals, whose opinions were then rejected and ridiculed,
had anticipated, even in some of their minutest details, the
calamities by which the country had since been visited ;
and he could not look back to the prophecies of those men,
and to the progress of those calamities, without some feel-
ing of satisfaction, however melancholy, because they af-
forded decisive proof that the prevailing evils arose from
artificial causes, and not from natural necessity—though
appalling, they were vincible ; and as they bad arisen from
legislation, by legislation they might be remedied. Looking
to the past, he could not persuade himself that the House
would refuse inquiry, or that Ministers would take upon
themselves the tremendous responsibility of recommending
and enforcing that refusal ; and if an inquiry were insti-
tuted, he pledged himself to prove that the existing dis-
tre9eB were susceptible of remedial measures, not only
involving uo ,hreach of public faith or national honour, but
tending directly to the preservation of both, as well as to
the restoration of the country to its once envied power and
Prosperity.
Mr. PEEL felt the full force of the observation which
had been made, that the subjects which had been brought
forward,, numerous as they were, were so important that
a separate investigation was no less than each subject de-
manded: Of all the topics which had been discussed,
there was one which had been introduced by the Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Cornwall (Sir Vyvyan),
Which he (Mr. Peel) should certainly exclude from his
consideration ; he referred to what had fallen from the
Hon. Baronet in respect to party considerations, and the
hearing of
Government.
the present motion upon the interests of the
He did not think it necessary to discuss
the subject of the sufferings of those who were labouring
under the calamities of the present moment, in that tem-
per of mind which a reference to party subjects was cal-
cchualartet dof tt,oubicceretaste.—(Hear.)—Looking to the crowded
dian line to direct
his him, without the- aid of a men--
his course by, he would endeavour at
least to confine himself to the subjects which had been ad-
verted to in the debate. 'With respect to distress, he ad-
mitted it did exist to an extent which ought to excite
great sympathy, and which imposed a duty on Parliament
of deviiing means of mitigation, if those means were com-
patible with a comprehensive view of the whole state of
the 'country. He never meant to deny the existence of dis-
tress; though, in some instances, he differed from the views
taken
this
akenby several Members as to its extent; and with reference
Point, he would beg to advert to some of the arguments
used by his Right. Hon. Friend, the Member for Liverpool
(Mr. Huskisson). His Right lion. Friend, in a speech,
tho temper and moderation of which he would wish to
imitate, stated one fact, which, at the time, be (Mr. Peel)
felt, made an impression on the House, as affording a proof
of the existence of distress. These related to the with-
drawal of deposits from the savings banks. His Right
Hon. Friend said, that the amount deposited in those
banks in 1828 was 945,000/., and that the sums drawn
out in that year Were 678,0001. ; and in 1829 the sums
deposited did not exceed 449,000!., while the sums taken
out in the same year were 1,445,000/. ; and these his
Right Hon. Friend took to he conclusive proofs of the
existeirre of general distress. Now, without denying the
stoteMents of his Right lion. Friend, he trusted that in a
few Words he should convince him, and that, too, in the
Most satisfactory manner, that the conclusion to which he
had come from those facts was not the correct one. This
was a most important point of the subject before the House,
and therefore he begged its indulgence for a short time,
while he offered an answer to it. The facts stated by
his Right Hon. Friend were, as lie had said, correct, but
the. circumitances of the country, with respect to the
savings banks at the period, would explain them. To-
wards the end of the year 1828, a change took place in the
law as regarded savings banks, which made a material
difference in the deposits of 1829, as compared with
the preceding year. Previously to November, 1828, the
interest on deposits in those banks was 3d. per day for
100/., or 41, 11 it. 3d. per cent. In November of that year,
which date was exactly coincident with the commence-
ment of the alteration in the amount of deposits quoted by
his-tight Hon. Friend, a law came into operation, which
not 'only reduced the interest to 21d. per day, or 31. Bs. 5,1.
per cent.; but also limited the deposits of any one person to
30/.. in any one year, and to 2001. in the whole, so that
after that amount was deposited, no further sums would be
received from the same party. The effect was an imme-
diate drawing out of the deposits of those who held large
.81ms. He was sure that his Right Hon. Friend would be
glad to hear that an explanation so satisfactory could be
given of this difference between 1828 and 1829, which
some Hon. Members seemed, at the time it was stated, to
think Was rte slight ground for inquiry. He held in his
hand an account of the amount of the several deposits in
savings banks in 1828 and 1829, distinguishing those of
201., So!., SOL, 1001, and 2001. The contributors to
sums of 2001. were, in 1828, 2,273/. ; and to the same
in 1829, they were 1,850/. But what was the fact, and
it *as a cheering one as far as it referred to the condition
of the humbler classes? In 1828, the depositors of sums
not exceeding 20/. each were 66,204 ; but in 1829 they
bad increased 4,ooo—being in that year 70,150. He felt
that it was not necessary for him to offer any apology to the
House for going into minute details on this subject, be-
cause it was one on which much stress had been laid by his
Right Hon. Friend, and from which, he was sure, when
the real state of the case was known, his Right Hon.
Friend aid the House would draw a different conclusion
from that to which he had come.—(Hear, bear.)—He
would therefore state to the House the names of some of the
places in which an increase of the deposits of th'e sums last
mentioned had taken place, and he would do this to show
that the improvement of which he took it to be a proof was not confined to one town, or one district of the country.
In Liverpool, for instance, there had been an increase of
those deposits. In Norwich there was also an increase.—
In the bank at Panton-street, Haymarket, there was like-
Wise an increase. In Shrewsbury, Sheffield, Southampton,
Truro, Warwick, Whitechapel, Worcester, Exeter, and
in. Leeds, the same increase of those deposits was
yManifest, making, not a decrease, as his Right
on. Friend had said, but an increase of 4,000
depositors of that class. Still, in adverting to the
situation of the louver classes, no man felt more strongly
than he did how much Parliament was hocnd to consult
the interest of those classes, with the view of increasing
their comforts in every possible way ;. for he knew that so
far' as it did this, it gave a new guarantee for their good
conduct, and at the same time afforded additional security
for the happiness of the higher classes of society.—(Hear,
On this subject he might refer with some confi-
dence to the measures which his Majesty's Ministers had
proposed for the reduction of taxation, and in which, as
ad been observed bv an Hon. Member, Ministers had not
faulted what might promote their own patronage or
''PAce, but what would most conduce to the interests
4111114.r.e.,01Tufztilooftit)17 lower classes. His Right Hon. Friend
in alluding to this reduction of taxes,
.„-,ir.tf-d,t9.one point which was of considerable import.
e.brew out a suggestion whether it would not
4-rt
-airea4 eit4if , to have commuted some of the taxes
his. Right ngr.tor some others of a different kind. Now
nientio nn* Friend had someuvhat skilfully avoided the
of
t.b, nof that other tax, for which he would have some
consPr;tlnt commuted ; but still it was evident, from
altner in which he alluded to it, that he mooted for
larger the question of a property-tax, by which a
Snare of taxes might be remitted to certain classes.
sto,"' lIOSKISSON, in explanation, said, as we under-
oerutZ, that his object was that the taxes should affect only
k classes who were able to bear them.
th4,l;:e,PEEL—Nothing could be mere inconvenient than
the as as a Minister of the Crown should touch upon
.routiction of that or any other tax, if it was not a
In'eAniure intended
,to be brought forward as one of Govern-
the Right. Hon. Friend had correctly stated that
miolleltuelect had been duly considered by his Majesty's
those tie tilt-Ixeause it was of the tatinoat importance that
•
be serious n; Affecting the interests, of the country should
bearing 1--,eiglied before any decision was made. The
be ex 'tie', a tax on land, if other interests were to
emPtrrorn • • • 'd r
Con. Ilia. it, was also deserving of serious cons' e
subject,. and on'd
the
Right Ministers had given to the
Right tion-.1,-'e result was, as had been stated by his
would be bett.o d : they came to the conclusion, that. it
se t:h at
any other coure
directly
.011 th rt° remit three millions of taxes bearing
Peat mass of the people, than to adopt
give any oth
ar .ax, suen amighth.have suggested itself. To
ticul t 'er
,el"inn now upon the merits of any par-
ticular , 3 that which seemed to be in
.the con-
vert to
be prudent ma Right Hon. Friend, would certainly not
for him, and therefore be would not further ad-
upon b it., - Another aubject which had been touched
jug. jci.iliabßight Hon. Friend was the system of Irink-
vnin„,.. :trpiglit be done with a view to its improve-
bil-tnoett,cf 6gl7:!"aa a topic which he thought could not
was not aiieof too great care and delicacy. He
important is'ervieei.°%,ho under•rated the value of the
Indeed, inlaoln tvra.ich bankers rendered to the country.
he 041%4 thal.'":re the ,value of the whole as a body,
adVarttage, derived' 1.2 t.o° apt to overlook the general
vidual them,cast and to dwell on indi-
th, of a use He, however, was not of
iis number, and' he ti .
C did 0
I:4litt might be possible,'
• •
in lay mptoremento thspt
made in the

system, to reconcile the interests of the body to:which he
alluded with those of the public. Upon the nature'of any
improvements that might be wade in the system, he was
not then disposed to enter ; but he must say, that to
throw open the banking system to every adventurcri—to
consent to the establishment of joint stock banking com-
panies with only a limited responsibility, while the re-
sponsibility of the private banker extended to his entire
property, were measures which ought to be considered
with great caution. He would sow approach some of the
remarks made by the Hon. Member who last addressed
the House, and he must own that the speech of the Hon.
Member confirmed bins in what he had all /dung feared,—
that whatever might he the views of the Hon. Member
who brought forward this motion, those of very many by
whom it was likely to be supported would be directed to
some inquiry which would go to a revision of our currency
system, and also to that of free trade. If he might. take
the Hon. Member's speech as an indication of his inten-
tions in this respect, there could be no doubt on the sub-
ject; and he was glad of it, for he did hope that their
discussion of That night would put an end to the currency
question. He knew the lion. Member could agitate
it again and again, if he pleased, but he did hope
that this, the seventh or eighth decision of the House
upon it, would put an end to all further doubts upon the
subjece, and that they would now debate for the last time,
by showing that it was their firm determination to adhere
to the system already adopted with respect to our cur-
rency.—(Cheers.)—But the Honourable Member (Mr.
Attwood) asked with great force of declamatory elo-
quence, " Will you abdicate the functions of Parliament
by refusing to enter upon an inquiry upon a ques-
tion so important to the country ?" He (Mr. Peel)
would answer, No. Parliament had now discussed
the question so frequently and SO fully, that Members
were now in possession of every thing which could be
known respecting it.—(Hear, hear.)—Did the Hon.
Member, by the proposed inquiry, mean that the standard
of value should be altered, or was there any great error
which he would wish to have corrected in the measure of
1919? If he did, he hoped the House would now pro-
nounce its opinion upon both points. As the author, in a
great degree, of the measure of 1819, he hoped the House
would indulge him while he offered a few remarks in sup-
port of its principle, and the more particularly as lie hoped
they were now discuss'ng the questions for the last time.
The two questions he would aslc the Hon. Member were
—had there been an error committed in the measure of
1819, and in what way were they to correct that error?
Let the House bear in mind that ten years were now elapsed
since the adoption of that measure, which had since been
farther confirmed by repeated decisions of that House.
Upon that adoption, and its subsequent confirmations a va-
riety of contracts, mortgages, and other pecuniary engage-
ments, had been entered into on the faith that the measures
of Parliament would be strictly persevered in. He asked,
then, was it advisable that the whole of those engagements
should be given up ?—that the faith of Parliament, pledged
for the measures in which they were founded, should be
broken ? But what course would the Hon. Member take?
Would be have a paper currency convertible into gold ?
Would he alter the standard of value, or would he have
an inconvertible paper currency? If any one of those were
the measure he would point out, and to momesof which in
his own declamatory mood, he had alluded, why should not
he, who knew so much on the subject, provoke a discus-
sion by the introduction of a short Bill? A single sheet
of paper would contain a Bill for any of those objects; why
then not introduce it at once ? But as the Hon. Member
had shrunk from such discussion, he would not then enter
minutely into it, but would make a few observations on
the facts brought forward by the Hon. Member. The
Hon. Member stated that we had 800,000,000/. of debt,
which had been contracted for in a currency depreciated
more than 20 per cent. below that in which it was to be
paid. But if the Hon. Member looked to the real effects
of the case, he would find that this was not so. Let
him consider that a large portion of this debt was con-
tracted fur in a currency nearly as high as that in which
the public creditor was now paid. But suppose the pub-
lic creditor was to be paid only in the currency in which
the debt was contracted, let him (Mr. Peel) ask the lion.
Member to discriminate who were the parties to whom the
depreciated rate of payment was to be made? A great
majority of the original contractors had passed away, and
since 1816 a vast portion of the public funds had got into
the hands of persons who did not pay for it in a depre-
ciated, hut in an improved currency ;—not in the value
which the Hon. Member would set upon it, but in the
improved mercantile value. Surely the lion. Member
would not tern round on those parties and say to them,
" you must he the dupes of your confidence in the resolu-
tions of Parliament, which state that faith should be kept
inviolable with the public creditor !" When, then, the
Hon. Member deducted from this 800,000,000/. the
amount standing in the names of those who purchased at
a rate nearly equal to the present value, and those who had
since purchased at a full value, he would find that this sum
would be reduced to a very small amount indeed. He
would now come to the alteration in the standard of va-
lue. it bad now existed for eleven years, and under it a
variety of contracts and obligations had been entered into.
Would it not, then, he would ask, be a greater evil to de-
part from the system, than to persist in it as it is ? If
the lion. Member thought not, he would again tell him
that his best mode of bringing the question to an issue
would be to introduce a measure by which he might
show, if it could be shown, that no inconvenience would
result from the alteration.—(Hear, hear. )—He would now
come to tisk Bill of 1819, and however unpopular the
assertion, or to whatever degree of obloquy it might sub-
ject him, he must affirm that the introduction of that
Bill was no error.—(Hear, bear, hear.)—No doubt many
Hon. Members, then in the House, who had taken
an active share in the discussions of the measure, would
be ready to relieve him from any degree of personal re-
sponsibility attached to it, by stating that it was one in
which they also had joined. Indeed when he mentioned
that it was a measure that had been sanctioned by the
Legislature, he might relieve himself from all equitable or
legal responsibility. But without sheltering himself under
that, he would then contend that in that measure Parlia-
ment had pursued the wisest and safest course for the wel-
fare of the country, and nothing could be more grossly in-
correct than the assertion that it was not so.—(Hear. )
It was said that this change in the currency had depreciated
the value of commodities more than twenty per cent., and
in fact every degree of distress—every depression of trade
—every panic or commercial revulsion that had since
occurred, had been owing to that Bill. Now it might not
be unimportant to ask whether there had been no con-
vulsions, no panics, no depression, before the introduction
of that Bill ? Let him beg of the Hon. Member to con-
sider what had taken place in 1793, just at the com-
mencement of the war. What was the situation of the
country in 1797, when we had restricted the issue of gold,
and had substituted a paper currency ? What was the
state of the country in 1810, when there was net even a
whisper of intention to return to cash payments ? Why,
in that very year a Committeee was appointed to inquire
into that distress, which reported that credit had been de-
stroyed in the country, that many of the commercial trans-
actions of the country were carried on at a loss of from 60
to 70 per cent., that a number of manufacturers continued
their men in employment only to afford them a precarious
subsistence, and to prevent the injury to their machinery
which inaction occasioned. Every symptom of the
country at that time was much worse than at present,
and yet there was then no appearance of a return to pay-
ments in gold. He would next direct the attention of the
House to the year 1816, and he begged, in doing so, to
remind the Hon. Member for Essex, that that Hon.
Member brought forward a resolution, stating the very
distressed condition of agriculture at that period. He did
not know whether the Hon. Member had lately referred to
the able speech which he then delivered on the causes of
the distress, or whether, if he had, he might not think that
the different circumstances of the country since then would
be a just ground for his having altered it. In that speech
the Hon. Member attributed the agricultural distress to a
fall of prices, and he argued very powerfully to show that
tin inconvertible paper currency would have a prejudicial
effect on the value of the produce of home tillage. The
Hon. Member bad also then argued that a paper currency
was the effect, and not, as it had been since asserted, the
cause of law prices. He (Mr. Peel) was willing to admit
that at the time the Bank of England had given some in-
timation of returning to cash payment. This induced hbn
to revert to another point connected with the subject—
namely, the decline in prices. lie would admit that great
distress was occasioned by that decline, but he did not be-
lieve that one-tenth of that distress could be fairly attri-.
bated to the resumption of cash payments. While he was
on this point, he begged to say one or two words, to rescue
the memory of the late Mr. Ricardo from an imputation
which had been unjustly cast upon it. Mr. Ricardo was
stated to have said that the differences between the prices
before and after the resumption of cash payments was only
from three to four per cent. Now Mr. Ricardo said no
such thing. What he did say was,—that the great dif-
ference between prices before and after the resump-
tion of cash payments was a difference—he (Mr.
Peel) did not know at what amount Mr. Ricardo
stated it—not referable to the change of currency, but
referable to the change from war to peace; but he said
that the amount of reduction of price in consequence of a
return from paper to gold was not more than from 3 to 4
per cent. Now when he (Mr. Peel) admitted that a great
change took place in prices after the resumption of cash

payments, he must look to other cati-as for that change.
Let him refer to the war, which was of SO years' duration,
and let him look at the p: ices to which all articles were
raised during that war, and he would ask whether it
would be possible, under any systa in of currency, to have
kept up these prices in time of peace. To the return,
therefore, from war to peace trust he attributed the differ-
ence of prices, awl nut to any change in the currency.
Now, going to the p•Tiod of the French war, which he
would not stop then to defend, he would only say, that in
his opinion, and he agreed with an Hon. Baronet who
institutions,—
that it, was a war for the support of existing
that it had tended to promote the (he hoped) permanent
settlement of Europe. Now, if he divided that war into
two periods of 14 years, in the first of these the expendi-
ture of the country exceeded its revenue by 189,000,000/.
In the second period the excess of revenue above expendi-
ture was 236,000,0001., making an excess in the two pe-
riods of 425,000,0001. Now lie would ask, after such
an extraordinary expenditure as be had stated, could it be
expected that the country should resume its ordinary
condition without great depression, and whether the seine
high prices could he continued as in mu.? It was with a
nation as with an individual: if he bad, for some cattle,
whether necessary for his defence or not, made a large
anticipation of his income, he could not return to his
former condition without great weakness being apparent
in his resources. Another cause of this great differ-
ence in prices was, that by the system which Napoleon
obliged us to adopt, with respect to our colonies, we became
possessed of the monopoly of the trade of Europe, and of
course that monopoly raised the price of every cuticle
here, and of the value of the labour expended in its pro..
duction. That system was now at an end, and of course
the high prices ended with it. It had been repeatedly
said that the transition from a state of war to one of
peace ought to have been over before this, but no mistake
could be greater than that under which those persons
laboured who entertained such an opinion. They should
have recollected that it was not possible for countries on
the continent of Europe to enter all at once into a compe-
tition with England, the seeds of manufacturing industry
were so completely blighted every where amongst them by
the long continuance of hostilities. In fact, immediately
after the cessation of the war, our manufactures received
an impetus rather than a 'depression ; but gradually, as
continental industry resumed its tone, we were driven to
the necessity of struggling to maintain that pre-eminence
which we had before uninterruptedly enjoyed. And who
could now shut his eyes to the conviction that we should
be necessitated and compelled to regulate our prices by
theirs, if peace continued and capital increased in the bands
of our competitors, and machinery should be introduced
amongst them, which we, however desirous, might not
have it in our power to prevent?—(Hear, bear.)--We
should be obliged, he repeated, to regulate our prices by
existing circumstances altered as they were to our preju-
dice, and to abandon those which we could exact in the
days of our monopoly during the war. Was it fair, then,
to load the authors of the Bill of 1819,—he could not say
with calumnies, because no personal charges had been
made against him, but—with accusations of being the
originators of evil which was referable to circum-
stances over which neither they, nor Parliament itself,
could have any possible controul? Even from the
battle of Leipsic,—from the first symptoms of the
downfall of Napoleon's power, the real causes began to
operate ; nor were they long in operation before they ex-
hibited their effects. It would be found, by a reference
to dates, that the fall in the price of wheat, for example,
was not coincident with changes in the circulation. On
those subjects which, he regretted to say, were but little
understood, Hon. Members would derive much valuable
information from a perusal of the many able works which
had been published, in order to put political men in pos-
session of the facts, and arguments necessary to a proper
knowledge of what was allowed to be so important. But
he more particularly alluded to the labours of Mr. Tooke,
to whose abilities and information he was happy to have
an opportunity of bearing testimony. No man felt sin-
cerer or more cordial sympathy for the landed interest than
he had always entertained. From political considerations
alone he should deeply lament their permanent.depression,
as he thought it necesssary to the welfare of the State,
and the proper balance of society, that those who were
possessed of incomes amounting to from 1,200/. to 1,500/.
a year should be upheld in their station, and it was at all
times painful to his feelings to be a spectator of their de •
pression or decline. After the restoration of the peace,
however, it was unreasonable to expect that they could
maintain the old prices which had existed in times so
different from the present. There was one cause of the
distress now complained of by agriculturists, which was
certainly beyond Legislative controul, and which, at the
same time, appeared to him to be greatly under-rated.—
He meant the improvement in steam navigation and the
mechanism of modern machinery, which suddenly brought
the bad laud of this country into competition with the
richest land of Ireland and Scotland, which imported
agricultural produce into England with a facility of con-
veyance unprecedented hitherto. A steam-vessel was in-
cessantly employed in transporting the produce of the
most fertile districts in the west of Ireland to Liverpool,
whence it was as rapidly passed on to Manchester, where
the cargoes were immediately disposed of. In short,
the effect of this introduction of Irish produce on the
agricultural resources of England was precisely similar to
that occasioned in the West India Islands by the annexation
of the rich land of Demerara to the British Crown. The
causes which he had mentioned would continue to operate,
maugre all our anxiety to remove them or to neutralize their
necessary effects. He had taken leave of the currency
question, and did not intend again to resume it. The Hon.
Member opposite, he perceived, shook his head on his say-
ing this ; but he hoped that lie would not shake it again
during the session, if the gesture was indicative of a reso-
lution to bring the subject again under their consideration.
In reply to those declaimers who had so vehemently con-
demned the Bill of 1819 as ruinous to the country, he
should not deal in counter declamations, or answer their
vague assertions and inconsequent conclusions b. y a similar
mode of defence, but would rather confine himself to a
few facts which lie submitted were quite sufficient to
confute their misrepresentations. He had endeavoured to
ascertain the bearing of this obnoxious measure in several
of the large manufacturing districts, by inquiries into the
condition of the population now, as compared with what it
was at the period of its introduction. Iu the town of
Manchester a very animated controversy, they were in-
formed, was at present going forward, as to whether the in-
habitants were distressed or not, some contending that they
were, and some that they were not—(Laughter)—nor was
it probable that the contest would ever know an end until
the legislature should decide the question by its own
authority and arbitration. He should, then, pass over
Manchester, and likewise 'Liverpool and Leeds, as there
were others better entitled by local knowledge to speak as
to the existing state of those places than he could pretend
to be, but he would select the fairest example, where
he could meet the Hon. Member on fair grounds, as he
might himself be said to represent the district to which
he alluded, and could contradict him in any statement he
should advance if it teas incorrect or erroneous. Bir-
mingham was that part of England he should instance;
and lie did so more patricularly, as it was the nucleus of a
certain political union which bad extendeg its ramifica-
tions elsewhere, originating in Birmingham, he presumed,
on account of the pre-eminence of the inhabitants over
their fellow-sufferers in distress.—( Hear. )—Most willingly
would he give the Hon. Member his choice of a test or
criterion of prosperity, and by his own selection he should
abide. His object was to compare the circumstances of
the inhabitants in 1818 with those under which they were
so loudly complaining in 1830, in order to ascertain how
far the Bill of 1819 had operated as a cause of their de-
pression. And first as to the population. In the year
1818, there were 19,000 premises, including warehouses,
in Birmingham, whereas, in 1828, it contained no less
than 22,000 inhabited houses, exclusive of warehouses.
The Hon. Member's arguments went to prove that the
alteration in the currency had depressed the value of pro-
perty, but he was assured that there was nevertheless in
Birmingham a great increase in its value since the Bill had
been introduced. Three acres in the neighbourhood of
the town had been putchased in 1827 for 6001., which
were since sold for 2,4261., and ground rents, where
40 years remained unexpired, were disposed of at 100
years' purchase. Land which had been sold in 1826
at 3,500/, was bargained for in last November at 4,200/.
The number of licensed traders amounted in 1820 to only
198, but might be estimated in 1829 so high as 1,150.
Then with respect to the consumption of the luxuries of
life, there was an increase in exactly the same ratio. The
four-wheeled carriages, which were charged assessed
taxes in 1819, numbered but 38 ; in 1822 they were 41.;
in 1824 they came to 94; in 1826 to 106; and in 1828
to 157. Horses which were charged assessed taxes in
1819 were in number 923 ; in 1822 they amounted to
791, but in 1823 and 1825, when the tax was taken off,
there was no means of ascertaining the progressive increase. ,
In 1828, however, they might amount th 977. The ma-
nufacturing activity, be thought, would be best estimated
by the amount of tolls on the roads in the vicinity of Bir-
mingham ; and here also the same increase was manifest;
for the tolls on the Holyhead and two other roads had
been let, in 1822, for 1,200/. a year; but in 1829 they
brought 1,7671. The tolls on the Kidderminster-road,
likewise, were let in 1820 at 1,1001. a year, whereas in
1827 they were raised to 1,665/. A like increase took
place in the item of canals. The custom on the Worces-1

tcr and Canal in 1821 and 1522 averaged at
I(0/., awl in and 15•29 its relative prosperity was
marked by tittn ay+ mage of 1651., making a difference of

65 per cent. The offl Birmingham Canal in 1821 and
1822 averaged at 9:3, and in 1828 and 1829 at 105.
These Teets, in hit opinion, dearly established the con-
clusion, that the Bill of 1819 had not been productive of
that overwhelming distress which was described as the
consequence of its operation. Touching the subject of
that night's debate, which, after all, had no very con-
siderable share in the discussion, he could not see what
they were to do with the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Shaftesbury, who had proposed that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the
causes of that general distress complained of in the peti-
tions, and endeavour to devise a remedy for the same.—
On his asking the Hon. Member at a quarter to six, what
was the precise motion which he intended to bring forward
the Hon. Gent. replied that he was too old a soldier to give
him any information upon the subject.---(Laughter.)—
The result,. however, of a fortnight's deliberation, was a
motion for a Committee of the whole House, instead of a
Select Committee, and he thought that the Hon. Member
lied judiciously preferred framing his motion as he had
done. But the lion. Baronet, the Member for Shoreham,
had certainly not treated him well.—(Laughter.)--He had
riot paid the' originator of the first motion that deference
and respect to which his zeal, assiduity, and long cogita-
tion upon the subject had so deservedly entitled him.—
(Hear, and laughter.)—The motion of the Member for
Shaftesbury he considered by much the better of the two.
If such distress as was described did in reality exist, it was
greatly preferable that an inquiry should be conducted by a
Committee of the whole House, where all Members were
on a fair equality, and where the public were thoroughly
acquainted with their proceedings.—(Hear, hear. )—But
the Honourable Baronet proposed the appointment of a
Committee of 21 Members, who were to sit and inquire by
oral evidence into the extent and causes of the distress, and
also to suggest a remedy. Was it possible (he put it to any
dispassionate man) that such a Committee, with such a'
subject before them, could press nt a satisfactory report dur-
ing either this or the ensuing session?--(Hear.)—He
hoped that the House would reject both motions—( Hear,
hear)—not because most of those who supported them
would desire to have an alteration in the currency, but from
a conviction that if an inquiry of this nature were insti-
tuted, large classes in the couutry would immediately infer
that a depreciation of the standard, or some measure af-
fecting the currency, was contemplated. Certain indica-
tions of a return to prosperity were at present beginning to
exhibit themselves, and he had received, no later than that
very morning,. letters from Manchester and Leeds, which
induced him to believe that we had already reached the
lowest point of depression. Hon. Members had observed,
that we were entitled at this peculiar season to witness a
revival of our manufactures, if the distress was not entirely
irretrievable, and he concurred with them in thinking that
the breaking up of the severe and long continued frost ought
to produce such an effect as they anticipated. But he feared
the disease less than the remedy.—(Hear.)—The hapless
fate of a patient under the joint superintendence of three
physicians was adverted to in the progress of the debate, and
he should entertain similar fears for the nation whether
submitted to the dewtoring of 658 of the faculty, as pro-
posed by one gentleman, or to 21 as suggested by another.
—(Laughter.)—He did not like to trust the Constitution
cf the country to either of those Hon. Members, with their
bundle of prescriptions, which only excited in him an in-
voluntary shudder when they were produced. In refusing
to assent to both propositions now submitted for their adop-
tion, they were not abandoning their duty, but acting con-
sistently with the true interests of those whom it was in-
tended to relieve, shunning an inquiry which would only
cause fruitless anxiety and excitement, and awaken hopes
that were doomed to disappointment ere they were formed.
Sir C. WETHERELI. said he was not a little sur-
prised that nearly the whole speech of the Right Hon.
Secretary was a defence of what was called his own pill,
'and that scarcely five minutes had been devoted by the
Right Hon. Secretary to the discussion of the real prac-
tical question before the House. The question was,
whether so much of agricultural and commercial distress
prevailed in this country, as would justify the House in
instituting the proposed inquiry. The Right Hon. Secre-
tary said that there was no distress at all.—(Cries of " No,
no," from all parts of the House )—Well, then, the Hon.
Member for Bramber had said so—(Hear, and laughter)—
and the speeches of many other Hon. Members bad gone
to the same extent. There were great contradictions on
this point. The Hon. Member for Bramber (Mr. Irving)
had said, that far from there being any distress at Coventry,
he weavers there were as fresh as a bunch of their own
ribands, while the Hon. Member (Mr. Fyler) near him,
who was in the habit of visiting these weavers, and shaking
hands with them—(Hear, and laughter)—said that their
distress was great ; and lie was inclined to take the opinion
of the Hon. Member for Coventry in preference to that of
the Hon. Member for Bramber, who did not live at
Coventry, hut, be believed, in Richmond-terrace. Then,
again, they were told by sonic Honourable Members, that
there was no distress, or next to none, nt Leeds; but
in contradiction to such statements, they had the authority
of an Hon. Member whom he was afra;d he should not
describe correctly—he meant the able, the enlightened, the
accomplished Member for Newark—(Loud laughter)—able
as a writer and as a reasoner—(Laughter)striking in his
eloquence—(Shouts of laughter and cries of " 011,")—well
versed in ancient and modern learning, and accomplished
in his mode of applying that learning. (The loud and
general burst of laughter which followed this sentence
prevented our hearing whether the Hon. and Learned
Member finished the encomium here.) The authority of
men like the worthy Member for Newark was at least
better' than the unopened budgets of the Right Hon. Se-
cretary and the Right lion. Master of the Mint. He
meant to support the amendment for the appointment of a
Select Committee. He thought that the country had a
right to information by means of its representatives; and
he believed the best way, as well as the most usual and
Parliamentary way, of gaining that information, was to
appoint a Select Committee. He rejected and repudiated
the notion that those tvlio voted for this motion meant to
disturb the present currency, and to substitute a paper cur-
rency. He meant no such thing ; and to prevent this,
and get rid of the objection on this account, let there be an
instroction to the Committee that they should not enter-
tain the currency question. He begged to press upon the
consideration of the House this mode of getting rid of the
objection which induced the Right Hon. Secretary to op •
pose the moti,m.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose amidst loud cries of " Ques-
tion." As soon as the lion. Member could obtain a hear-
ing, he said that he felt he could not at that late hour do
justice to his constituents—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—and that
he begged, therefore, to move that the debate be adjourned.
--(Loud cries of " No, no.")
- Mr. PEEL said, it appeared to him that this discussion
might be very easily brought to a close now—(Loud cheer-
ing)—and that be did not think they would be consulting
the public interest by devoting their time for a fourth night
to a measure which caused all other business to be neg-
lected.—(Cheers.)—He had done all he could to bring on
this motion. and to have it fully discussed, and he should
therefore oppose the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Clare, and take the sense of the House upon it if it were
necessary.—(Cheers, and cries of " Question.")
After a desultory conversation on the question of ad-
journment, between Mr. HUMP, Sir E. KNATCHBULL,
Mr. Hosicissos, Mr. DAVENFORT, and other Hon. Mem-
bers, the gallery was cleared for a division. While we
were excluded from the gallery, we understood two divi-
sions took place; the first on the simple question of the
adjournment of the House till Monday, on which there ap-
peared—Ayes, 9 ; Noes, 341. The second division was
on the motion op the Hon. Member for Clare—that is, for
the re-adjournment of the debate, for which 12 voted in
the affirmative, and 329 in the negative.
An Hon. MEURER, as we are informed, then expressed
his intention of re-dividing the House on the motion of ad-
journment till Monday, with a view of compelling an as-
sent to the re-adjournment of the debate; upon which de-
termination,

Mr. PEEL said he should be unwilling to throw any
obstruction in the way of Hon. Members expressing their
opinions, and therefore would propose that the further dis-
cussion of the question should stand over till Tuesday.
The resumption of the debate accordingly stands for
Tuesday next.

The House adjourned at Three o'clock till Monday.

It was remarked in the House of Peers, on
Thursday, that his Royal Highness the Duke of CUMBER-
LAND made his appearance in the House for the first time
since the conumeneement of the late rumours with which
he was in no small degree mixed up. Lord ELLENBO-
Aoucit also made his debut, if we may be allowed the ex-
pression, on Thursday.—the proceedings in his Lordship's
Divorce fill preventing him for some days taking his seat.
Lord ELDON also made his appearance in a blue
dress coat, with gilt buttons ! the first time he ever ap-
peared in the House in such a dress. His Lordship ap-
peared to be very jocose, laughing heartily every now and
then ;so also was the Duke of. CUMBERLAND. Lord Er:-
LzrutoitouGn, on the other hand, appeared cast down; nor
did'he sit in the course Of the evening, as he used to do,
next to the Duke of WELLINGTON.—Morning Paper.