The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-07 00:00:00

ADJOURNED DEBATE.

- - _
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped the noble lord would fix Thurs-
atv, or at the latest Monday, for the resumption of the
debate,

Lord PALMERSTON reminded his hon. and learned
friend that this was the month of July, and that ho hoped

On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Mr. AYRTON rose to nuve, that, in the opinion of this
house, the purchase-money of the land at Kensington
should be applied by the Commissioners of the Great Ex•
hibition of 1851 towards discharging the liabilities of the
commission, and that the commission should be determined, n
i
and the property now held by the commission
the Crown, subject to any interests now existing
and to any charges thereon." member
e therein,vested
reminded
havingthe hou sae
atuhraptl,uisn
ucfo siestroeonoc ea
torrfthtehe
their
hr
°ncommissionersdisposal,embetrtm he co
became
1851
The
aa
resultedlt
question
thathow thata
new large
commission sum wa swt
was
sb
issued,
appropriated.sued,
and
autho-
rity
wa
s given
wereem toh d
a u t
e riconsiderse whattobuy and sell Id,
and n
was to b be
adonen
Ivithtohat d. They
only to frame a scheme, but to carry it into execu-
tion. In that way power was acquired to deal with a fund
which for all practical purposes might be said to be derelict.
The commissioners came to the conclusion that the only
convenient course for them to take was to carry out some
great scheme within the area of the metropolis for the pro-
motion of science and art, but at the same time they sug-
gested that before any such scheme could be carried out it
was necessary they should be in possession of land for the
purpose. At the opening of the session of 1852 allusion was
made to the subject, and her Majesty declared, in her speech
from the throne, that she had directed a comprehensive
scheme to be laid before Parliament, The question thereupon
assumed a national aspect, and a sum of £177,500 was voted
to enable the Government to co-operate with the commis-
sioners in the purchase of a lot of land. Subsequently, find-
ing that their powers were not sufficient to enable them to
obtain all the land they wanted, the commissioners came to
Parliament for a local Act, compelling proprietors to sur-
render their land to the commissioners. By the exercise of
these powers the commissioners obtained possession of no
less than eighty-six acres of land, at the price of £355,000.
In that way a practical partnership arose between the State
and the commissioners, which was a very unfortunate part-
nership for the State, as the State was in a minority of five
to one upon the board. The partnership survived for two
or three years, but at last it was found so irksome that the
right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli)
came down to the house one day and announced
that the Government had come to the conclu-
sion that it were better it should be dissolved.
Ultimately the State was allowed to occupy twelve
acres of the land, getting back at the same time a sum
of £120,000, the rest of the estate valued at between
£300,000 and £400,000. But the State did not actually get
even these twelve acres ; they were only permitted to use it
subject to a proviso that the land was appropriated to the
purposes of science and art. Having made the above pre-
fatory statement, the hon. and learned gentleman asked
what had the commissioners ever done for the promotion of
science and art. Twenty-two acres of the land had been
appropriated to the formation of the Horticultural Gardens,
which was nothing more than a mere fashionable promer-
ade—a garden in which neither science, art, nor nature was
apparent. (Hear, hear.) Se revolting, indeed, was the place
to English taste and feeling, that there were great doubts
whether it could be maintained. Since they took what was
called " the Boilers," what had been done? Arrangements
had been made for establishing one of the finest cafes in
London ; and it was resolved that the national taste should
be cultivated in that respect, and that things should be
made attractive by means of beer, cheap wines, and gin-
sling. This great tavern was to be the grand, the all-pre-
vailing feature of the place ; the public were never to
escape from it, no matter what way they turned ; it was to
be the sine qua non. It was no doubt a very convenient
thing to have a place to eat and drink in ; and, like ex-
cursions to Richmond, it was right they should have
their " Star and Garter" in the centre of their opera-
tions. This was the great work which had been ac-
complished. What the tavern cost they did not know,
but they knew what the Horticultural Gardens cost—sim-
ply 22 acres of land and a grant of £50,000. (Hear, hear.)
The proceedings of the commissioners, from first to last,
had been tainted with over-reaching and chicanery; and
surely there never was a more curious combination of
ideas than that exemplified in the Exhibition building—
a glass dome, pieces of wood and iron in the walls, and
paintings like an immodest casino. (Laughter, and hear,
hear.) He would not go into details, for, after the decisive
vote of Thursday, it was not necessa y to do so ; but still
it was necessary to consider whether they had made an ab-
solute purchase of the land. There were conditions annexed
to the purchase of the land, which were not known to the
law of this country ; and it therefore became necessary to
inquire into the nature of these conditions, and the position
of the parties making them, One condition was that the
land should be applied to purposes in connection with the
advancement of science and art ; and the second condition
was that the land should be connected with the tavern and
drinking house. He wanted to know whether that was a
decent condition to impose in a matter of the sort, and
whether Parliament would allow the public interests to be
subordinated to the will and pleasure of those commissioners.
There was only one remedy by which they could disen-
tangle themselves from those commissioners, and that was
by getting rid of them altogether. (Cheers.) If the com-
missioners continued they might be sure of a repetition of
the embarrassing, circumventing intrigues which they had
witnessed in the present session. For his own part, he
would not like to see a repetition of the exhibition of Thurs-
day last; but, at the same time, he thought that exhibition
did credit to the House of Commons. (Hear.) But when
intrigues took place, it was the duty of hon. members to ex-
press themselves in terms of indignant disgust. He con-
tended that the position of the commissioners was anomalous
and embarrassing, and that it was the duty of Parliament to
intervene. There might have been some reason for giving
up the constitutional aspect of the question dur-
ing the lifetime of the illustrious Prince Con-
sort, who had devoted himself so exclusively to
science and art, and under whose guiding influence some
great purpose would be ultimately worked out. But now
the whole thing was changed, the commissioners had ful-
filled their part, and it was now time for Parliament to re-
rnodmrefnurtsthwe the
s li
further responsibility. There was a sum of
c£l ieelry2toae,ionthra rOgOetaot:
be paid for
estimated
at esofilla6n2d,o;oothmeavreal;uteheonf
there were 15 acres estimated at £225,000; making in the
aggregate £507,000. There was also the reversion of the
22 acres to the Horticultural Society in the course of 60
years, or whenever the public got tired of visiting the gravel
walks and stucco of the Horticultural Gardens. Well, these
were the assets, and now for the liabilities. They had bor-
rowed £120,000 from Greenwich Hospital ; £50,000 from
other parties, and they had given a rent-charge to Messrs.
Belk and Lucash
eamounting
st ot o
lg
el
t7,rotodoo;f
thmeaekxicnrgenine
naclel
of the £187,000.
commission; for, having lost its great head, it had
nothing to accomplish. (Cheers.)
Mr. LO WE said he would state the position occupied by
the commissioners of 1851. In 1850 her Majesty issued a
commission, and subsequently a charter, the object of which
was to give the commissioners a more extended field of ac-
tion. The aann4iigan wasi'becigliiieff by an Act of Parlia-
ment passed in 1854. After the great Exhibition of 1851,
the commission came into the possession of a surplus of
£180,000; that surplus, together with a further sum of
£177,000 granted by Government, had been applied towards
the purchase of the Kensington Gore estate. The com-
mission and the Government were partners in the purchase;
but the joint ownership between the commission and the
Government was put an end to in 1859. The Govern-
ment at that time took twelve acres, on which the
buildings of the Department of Science and Art were
erected, for £60,000, being about one-half of the value.
That was the precise legal position of the Commissioners,
who might be regarded generally in the light of charity
trustees who held no public money in their hands. If it
could be shown that their charter of incorporation had been
improperly obtained, then it could be put an end to by scire
paces, or if its powers had been abused it could be with-
drawn by quo warranto. Those were the only means known
' to the law for the sudden or violent revocation of a charter,
which would otherwise virtually expire when the func-
tions for which it had been granted had been fulfilled. But
then came the question, why, out of a vast number of cor-
porations existing upon a similar basis, should the house be
asked to declare that that particular one ought to be abo-
lished ? What had it done ? It had no public moneys in
its hands, and no public duties beyond those declared in the
charter. The fact of its having been warmly supported by
his late Royal Highness the Prince Consort should have
been a guarantee that it was at least deserving of some little
consideration. It should be borne in mind that the commis-
sioners of 1851 were not the managers of the Exhibition of
1862, and it was no proof of chicanery on the part of the
commissioners of 1851 if the hon. gentleman established
discreditable conduct on the part of the commissioners of
1862; but, before hon. gentlemen came down to the house
and made charges of the kind they had heard that evening,
he thought it was not too much to ask that they should use
sufficient diligence to make themselves acquainted with the
facts. The hon. gentleman charged the commissioners with
having built a tavern, but it was obvious that a refreshment
department was indispensable to the success of the whole
undertaking. At all events, he hoped Parliament would
not recommend the abrogation of the charter upon that
ground. (Hear.) Thelcommissioners had provided the coun-
try with funds to the amount of 420,000 for the promotion

The house then divided. The numbers were—
For the resolution' 42
Against it
Majority against..
The resolution was therefore negatived.
CHINA.
Lord NAAS, in calling attention to the affairs of China,
which he was induced to do so in consequenee of the man-
ner in which the debate had been brought to an abrupt
close the other evening, said he wished to endeavour to
elicit some explanation from her Majesty's Government on
the state of our relations with that empire. It seemed to
him that since the treaty of Pekin, which was concluded in
October, 1860, all the old traditional policy of Great Britain
was thrown away, and that they were now entering upon a
new state of things. In days gone by we had acted in a
spirit of hostility to the Chinese authorities, and thereby
had encouraged the Taepings; but since the treaty of Pekin
the instructions of Earl Russell and of Sir F. Bruce were
explicit, that neutrality would be observed on the part of
the British between the Chinese authorities and the Tae.
pings, unless where force was necessary for the protection of
British subjects. Earl Russell expressed at the outset his
wish to maintain neutrality, the only armed interference
being a defence of our treaty rights, and the settlements
occupied by her Majesty's subjects; but he proceeded to
show how, step by step, that policy had been abandoned,
and instead of occupying a neutral position, we had been in-
terfering in every way in almost all the internal affairs of
China. He referred to the events of the last two years, com-
mencing with our interference in the 30 miles radius of
Shanghai, which had had the effect of involving that dis-
trict in serious troubles and miseries. The partisans of both
sides had suffered alike—each party beheading the other
with little mercy, and upon the excuse that they aided the
opposite side—the Imperialists being, in fact, as bad as the
Taepings. Ningpo and the country around, which was in
the hands of the insurgents, was afterwards seized upon by
Consul Harvey, with the consent of the French and Ameri-
can consuls, as a foreign settlement for the three nations.
Next came the accidental killing bythe insurgents of several
English in a salute that was fired. Explanations were given
which were at first deemed satisfactory, but afterwards was
sent in a kind of ultimatum, in which Captain Drew asked
three things—first, an ample apology; secondly, the remo-
val of all the guns, &c., from the battery ; and thirdly, that
means should be taken to prevent a repetition of the disas-
ter. The insurgents assented to the whole of the proposi-
tions. It appeared that some way from Nangpo there were
some gunboats belonging to a pirate whom the Imperialists
hired to come up and attack Nangpo. Upon that Capt. Drew
sent word to the Taepings that if they fired a shot, even in
their defence, he would bombard the town. A shot was
fired, but it was not known by whom ; and upon that Capt.
Drew bombarded the town till two o'clock, when he went to
dinner. At 3 o'clook he landed his men, drove out the
rebels, and in the evening he handed the city over to the
Imperialist Government. That was the way in which our
officer conducted affairs in that country. He believed there
had been no attempt to establish the 30 mile radius around
Ningpo ; but, in February last, Capt. Drew accompanied a
force of a nondescript character to attack Shonhing, a walled
city, about 110 miles from Ningpo. It was called the
French contingent, and was commanded by a Frenchman.
who had belonged to the civil service. It consisted of about
500 men, accompanied by Capt. Drew, and they took with
them boats, in which to bring away the plunder. The first
night was occupied in plundering an Imperial village, and
the next day they advanced to the attack of the town, Capt.
Drew accompanying them as a spectator, as he said, but in
reality acting as their commander, and advised the attack.
The result, however, *as, that the force was ignominiously
beaten and driven back, and in that wretched skirmish the
French commander was killed: and the lieutenant in the
encounter was shot dead through the neck. It was impos-
sible to say that Captain Drew was not in actual command
of this force, for there was his own authority that he
was, and moreover that he borrowed eighteen howitzers
from General Staveley for the purpose of the expedi-
tion. As for Lieutenant Singney, who was killed, having
been present only as a volunteer, he reminded the house
that that gallant officer was there under the command of his
own captain, and he asserted that he was acting as much
in the discharge of his public duties as if he had been fight-
ing on board his own ship. The noble lord then proceeded
to animadvert upon the appointment of the foreign inspec-
tors of customs at eight ports, and to point out that the
authority which they exercised was sure to bring them in
collision with the local legitimate authorities. In the next
place, he pointed out that the force which had been organised
last year in this country under the dornmand of Capt. S.
Osborn, could have been despatched to China fcr no other
object than the restoration of the Imperial authority; at the
same time, that there was no evidence whatever that the
Imperial authority had been given for raising the force. It
was quite clear that one of the first things the force would
attempt would be the capture of Nankin, and the highest and
most reliable authorities distinctly were of opinion that no
measure could be more impolitic or more unlikely to lead to
the restoration of order than dispossessing the Taepings of
Nankin. He would now come to another force, which was
entirely separate from the Customs and from Capt. Sherard
Osborn's, and this was the force called the Anglo-American
Contingent. In the year 1860 a Mr. Ward, of whose nation-
ality there was some doubt, arrived in Shanghai. It was be-
lieved that Mr. Ward had formed part of Gen. Walker's fili-
bustering expedition ; but, however this might be, as soon
as he arrived in Shanghai he proposed to organise a foreign
legion, which was to consist of all sorts of men, negroes,
Manillas, &c. The formation of a legion of this kind was
one of the worst things which could happen, in consequence
of the depredations that sere being committed in the East-
ern seas, where adventurers and scoundrels of all nations
assembled for the purpose of rapine. This foreign legion
had, after some time, been disbanded, and Mr. Bruce wrote
expressing great satisfaction at the event. Colonel Ward
then turned his attention to drilling the Chinese, and
proved successful to some extent ; but ho fell when leading
en attack against a town in China. The noble lord then
referred to the successors of Colonel Ward, and submitted
that it was a most dangerous principle to have British offi.
cera induced to give up their commissions and become the
officials of a foreign power. Capt. Sherard Osborn would
probably receive as much pay in his new capacity as the
general commanding the British contingent in China, He
believed it would be no longer possible to set up the plea on
behalf of these men that they were in the pay of the Empe-
ror of China. This force of Capt. Osborn's would be always
regarded by the rebels as a British force. Their uniform
would be very like that of the British navy, and the Chinese
people would look upon them as a British force. It was
only necessary to refer to a statement of Prince Kung, the
Prime Minister of China, to show in what light the Impe-
rial Government viewed the several foreign armed forces
which were being organised to aid the Imperial forces. He
thought he had now shown that, while her Majesty's Go-
vernment had laid down the doctrine of strict neutrality in
1860, that doctrine had been entirely departed from. With
regard to arms, it was found that the contending parties
got well supplied, especially the Imperialists, and he was
afraid the Americans had largely entered into that trade.
In general terms he condemned the system of interference
adopted in China, a policy which, in parallel instances, had
almost invariably done more damage to the interfering state
than to the parties it operated against. If China was to
be governed upon Chinese principles, it must be governed
by Chinamen ; but if it was to be governed virtually by
European interference, it must be upon European principles,
or that interference must be utterly ineffectual. The noble
lord then quoted from Sir F. Bruce and Dr. Lake, a eminent
Chinese scholar, in support of his views, and concluded by
saying that our continued interference must only prevent
the natural settlement of the conflict, and during a long
series of years crimes would bo constantly committed in
our name that could not but bring a blush upon the face of
every Englishman who heard of them. The truth was,
that all the richest provinces of China, those from whence
our greatest supplies of tea and silk were derived, had been
in the hands of the rebels, as they were called, since 1854,
and the opinion of the commercial classes universally was,
that if the objectionable interference of Europeans were not
withdrawn, those " rebels" would very soon shut up their
ports and rivers, and stop our trade there altogether.
(Hear.) They never had adopted that course yet, but
nothing was more natural than that they should do so.
The noble lord then alluded to the rapid advances made by
Russia in forwarding its territorial boundary line to the
Atnoor river, and to within three days' sail of Shanghai.
The fact that the telegraph would probably soon be laid
rtd sevenre°
anwdt ne woc sai
to: days
tsnohf
ate:,
country,
tgthr
yeCr:h
si
Fnh aor
awnae c
end dtt
hhSeo twi.
netPve
ereret
twr sabt
was in
iegnn
awi
ndi t hi f
ft
he .
whin
and her commercial interest in the country
was very small indeed. The objects of the French were
purely ecclesiastical, and were well defined. For centuries
the French Church had taken a most active interest in
Chinese missions, and ho could not see how, with holier
and higher objects than we had, we could complain, and
say that they should not do that in the interests of mai-