The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

divinity of the Saviour held the most pernicious and
fatal errors—so if the Roman Catholics told him he be-
bieved in the doctrine of transubstantiation and wor-
ship of saints, and prayers for the dead, he would tell
him 11;s opinions were anti-Christian, whether he lived
at Rome, Maynooth, or Oxford--(Hear, hear)—and if
called on to assist him in establishing this doctrine,
he would refuse compl:ance with his request. He
believed Christianity was the glory and the defence
of this country, but not that vague and undefined
system of Christianity which would place the denying
Socinun, the blaspheming Jew—( Hear, hear)—the
error-holding Romanist, and the coldhearted formali,t,
on the same footing with the humble and adoring be-
liever in the Son of God.
Sir G. STAUNTON said that he was aware what-
ever side he took on this subject lie should be liable
to misrepresentation. He had always been a warm
friend to religious education, and anxious for its ex-
tension among every class, and as a private indivi-
dual he had contributed to the funds for the educa-
tion of the Dissenter and of the Roman Catholic.
He regretted that some plan of national education
had not been brought forward sooner. As far as the
present plan went to confer that benefit on the Dis-
senter
he approved of it, but he could not suffer that
benefit to be accompanied by any act which should
damage the National Church, or place those belong-
ing to it in a low.o- place. On these grounds he had
rejoiced at the establishment of the London University,
because while it furnished Nonconformists with a place for
education, it preserved intact the institutionsof Oxford and
Cambridge. If the Government could bring forward a
plan giving Nonconformists every facility for education,
and not trenching on the Established Church, it should
Lave his hearty concurrence ; but the present was not
such a plan—by it the Established Church was placed
under the superintendence of a board of laymen. It
was utterly impossible that Conformists and Noncon-
formists could ever be safely educated together. He
had great reluctance in voting against this plan, and
regretted that the question had assumed a party aspect.
On minor matters he would give up his opinion to sup-
port her Majesty's Government, but he felt that on this
occasion, although he should regret it exceedingly, that
it was his bounden duty to vote against them. He felt
that in questions connected with religion, he could not
consent to any compromise whatever, and in the present
instance, therefore, he felt bound, however reluctantly,
to vote against her Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. G. KNIGHT was most happy to think th it on
the present subject he should agree with the Hon.
Baronet who had spoken last, that this was not a party
question.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the example
set by the Hon. Baronet would be followed by many
other Hon. Members. He felt bound to complain of
the manner in which the present question had been
treated by Hon. Members o❑ the other side of the
House. He thought they might have been spared half
the speech, and all the taunts of the Right Hon.
Civilian who had spoken last night.--(Hear, hear.)
The Members on his side of the House were not op.
posed to national education, they only opposed the
Ministerial plan. He thought the Hon. Member far
Lambeth had treated the question much more candidly,
and he could not but admire his courage when he as-
serted that the present question was one between the
Church and the Dissenters.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
In what condition, he would ask, were the Dis-
senters of England and Wales to enter into
this discussion ? In England and Wales there were
not above two millions of dissenters, while the popula-
tion was sixteen millions.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Fourteen millions.

Mr. G. KNIGHT believed he was correct in stating
the population of England and Wales to be sixteen
millions. From the two millions of dissenters, was to
be substracted the Wesleyan Methodists, and if
that was done the Dissenters of England and Wales
would be a minority of eight to one. They had, there-
fore, no right to strugglo for pre-eminence over the
Church of England.—( Hear.) If the normal schools,
which was the plan of the Goverment, were to be
adopted, there would be an equality with a vengeance, for
it would reduce the Church of England to the level of
those who followed the doctrines of Johanna Southcote.
—( Hear, hear.) But then it was said there was to be
a Board. Now what would be the effect of that Board ?
Why, it would tell the people of England that the
clergy were no longer worthy of taking any part in the
education of the people, and it would be greatly to be
feared that, the supporters of the Government being
chiefly Dissenters, the Church of England would not
have fair play. Certainly it would have been infinitely
better to have trusted this pecuniary grant to the two
Societies who had had the management of it hitherto,
and he should wish it now to be left in their hands.
He was anxious to promote the education of the people,
but he could not give his support to any plan which
seemed to him to be absolutely to pull down the
Church, and totally to disregard and outrage the
feelings of the public.

Mr. GIBSON said that whatever objection he might I
entertain to this Committee of the Privy Council, there
was one which had proceeded from the other side of the
House that he could not attach much importance to.
That Hon. Member had said there was no member of
that Committee who was a member of the Church.
Now that Honourable Member had drawn an ex-
traordinary distinction between the . Church and
the clergy. The articles told us that the Church con-
sisted of the cm,gregation of all the faithful—( Hear,
hear)—and those four men were members of the Church
of England, therefore it was not to be supposed that
they would act in hostility to the Church. But the
Noble Lord the MeMber for North Lancashire had
said that the schoolmaster of Churchmen's children
ought to be regulated by the Ordinary. Now. he, as a
Churchman,. could not give his consent to that—
( Hear, hear.) He should be unwilling to impose func-
tions upon the Ordinary that lie was not qualified for.
From his experience at Universaties, he should say
that the schoolmasters were more fit to be put over
the Ordinaries than the Ordinaries were to be put
over them. In these times, when a number of
schisms were springing up amongst religionists, if the
Ordinaries were put over the religious instruction to be
given by the schoolmstcrs, even to Churchmen's chit.
dren, in his opinion nothing but great inconvenience
would be the result. When the Noble Lord talked of
setting up the Ordinary over the schoolmaster, it looked
something like setting up infallibility ; and if the Noble
Lord set up infallibility, he (Mr. G.) doubted whether
the people of this country would not prefer setting
up the infallibility of Rome to the infallibility of Oxford,
the infallibility of Oxford being only of very modern date
whereas Rome had prescription for its infallibility.—
(" Hear," and laughter.) The Hon. Member for So-
mersetshire had said that the working classes of this
country made no complaints, but that they had not
sufficient religious instruction. His (Mr. Cg's) infor-
mation did not accord with that of the Hon. Gen-
tleman. The working people had loudly complained
to him that they had nothing but religious insti uction.
They had asked him why they should not he allowed
to teach their children at home to pray ? why they
should not be left to take them to Church on Sun-
days, then and there to receive religious instruction,
and be educated et school in secular matters, and in
things useful for their guidance in passing through
life? But instead of that they said there was nothing
taught but strange outlandish texts from the Old Tes-
tament—( Hear, hear)—and that they were taught things
that never could be of use to them either in this world or
in the next. They did not teach them their duties to
God— they did not teach them their duties to man—they
did not tell them of love, forbearance, and charity towards
their neighbours—(Hear, hear, hear)—but they told
them of Moab—they taught them to understand
the positions of mountains—what they called the offices
of angels, and such strange things as these.—(Hear, li
hear, and laughter.) He was quite sure that if he were
to put some of the questions that were put to the chil-
dren at the schools to the Right Hon. Bironet, the
Member for Oxford, he himself would be quite unable
to reply to them.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
for Somersetshire had said in the commencement of his
speech that he thought the House of Commons was a
very unfit place for theological questions. He (Mr.
G.) was much struck with that observation, and he
quite agreed in the truthf i ot.
He wished he could
see the House of Commons, as a Civil Government,
regard all the subjects of the realm as men, and not as
s) many individuals separated into so many different re-
lig!ous sections—(Cheers)—but if they legislated on
civil rights and civil advantages, with a view to re-
ligious persuasions, then it did not appear to him
that it would be possible to avoid theological
questions being discussed in that House. When the
Noble Lord opposite first introduced this question,
lie anticipated many objections on the other side of the
House, which -he thought might never be raised, and
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth,
said that for his part he did not think the t such antici-
pated objections would be raised ; that was, that lie
should be an advocate for freedom of education. He
said he should offer the most strenuous opposition to any
plan that might violate the freedom of education—and
that the members of the Church of England should
have the same degree of freedom that they were wil-
-1
ing to concede to others. So far he (Mr. G.) went
along with the Right Hon. Baronet, but when he was
called upon to assent to a grant of public money out of
the taxes paid by the people, in support of a system of
national education, then lie felt bound, as far as he
could, to prevent the Established Church, or any
religious sect or society whatever, from imposing any
conditions on the reception of that education, by any
who might choose to avail themselves of it.—(Cheers.)
He should object to excluding any one from the civil
advantages of the secular education that was to be
afforded.—(Cheers.) By freedom of education, he
understood that which was to be free to the Church-
man, to the Roman Catholic, to the Unitarian,
to the Jew—to all who might think proper to come to
be educated.—(Hear, hear.) He should object to that
freedom of education which was 'to form two monopo-
lies—one to the Churchmen and one to the Dissenters,
if that was what the Right Hon. Bart. meant by his
freedom of Education. Any one might be at liberty to
aid such religious tenets to his child's instruction as he
pleased, provided he did not thereby prejudice similar