The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-19 00:00:00

TERCEIRA.

Mr. CHARLES GRANT gave notice of a motion on
the 11th March, with respect to Terceira.

LAW REFORMS.

Mr. PEEL rree to make the motion of which he had
given notice respecting the Reform of the Courts of Law.
Before he proceeded, he begged that so much of the Royal
Speech at the opening of the Session as related to the
measures for the improvernenta of the Courts of Law might
he now read.

The Clerk of the House then rend u follows :

" His Majesty commands us to acquaint you that his
attention has been of late earnestly directed to various im-
portant considerations connected with improvements in the
general adminiltration of the law. His Majesty has di-
rected that measures shall be submitted for your delibers-
tiou of which some are calculated, in the opinion of his
Majesty, to facilitate and expedite the course of justice in
different parts of the United Kingdom ; and others appear
to he necessary preliminaries to a revision of the practice
and proceedings of the Superior Courts.

"We are commanded to assure you that he Majesty
feels confident you will give your beet attention and assist-
ance to subjects of such deep and lasting concern to the
well-being of his people."

Mr. PEEL now rose, and' spoke as follows:—Mr.
Speaker, I have thought it might be for the convenience
and advantage of the House that, at an early period• of the
Session, I should avail myself of an opportunity of pre-
senting to the House the general outline of the measures con-
nected with the improvements in the whninistration of the
law, which have been referred to in his Majesty's gracious
Speech from the Throne. I am fully aware that much of
this measure will require a separate and deliberate consi
deration; but I still deem it of importance that, pre-
viously to entering into that separate consideration, the
House should be in possession of the view of his Majesty's
Government with reference to the general scope and object
of this measure. I am convinced that his Majesty's c0;,:,.-
dence in the disposition of the House to lend every as,ist.
Alice and attention to the progress of this measure is not a
misplaced confidence; end that, whatever may be the

shades of difterenee Upon political questions—however dif-
ferent may be our views either as to the ex'ent of the dis-
tress under which the country is now suffering—however
different are our views as to the foreign or domestic p hey
of the country, I an confident that these considerations,
however they may occupy the attention of the ILmse, they
will not so exclusively absorb it as to withdraw it altogether
from the subject—however less interesting and less ani-
mating this subject may be, it is certainly of not less im •
portanoe to the permanent welfare of the eountry—l ;aide
to the measure connected with the improvement and ge .eral
administraticn of the laws lam confident that the
House will bear with toe, .and extend to me the full mea-
sure of their indulgence whilst I now state the principles
and general outline of the reforms whirls his Msjeety's
Government wish to carry into effect. The Mouse, I hope,
will snake allowance for any want of professional education,
and bear in mind my neceeeary occupation of time in nu-
merous other matters of great importance to the country.
—(Hear, hear.)—lt is not my intention to enter at any
length iota the details of the measure ; on the contrary, I
shall leave technical points to those Letter fitted fer them
by education and professional practice. The House is, no
doubt, aware that some short tune since, upon an Address
of the Hone, Isis Majesty was pleased .to appoint two
Commissions—site of which was intended to enter into
the practice and the oroccedinos of the Supreme, Geirts of
Law, whilst it was the intention that the other Commiasion
should take into consideration the state of the law with
relsect to real property. It was thought advisable,
upon many grounds, that the subject should he thus
divided, and that oath Commission should confine
its labours to these separate branches of inquiry.--
I must give credit to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
who has just entered this house (Mr. Brougham) for the
appointment of these Commissions.—(Hear, hear.)—
Their appointment was the result of that very able and
comprehensive speech be made on the general sahket of
the law; and although ether questions were connected
with that speech, I must admit that these Commissions
were appointed in order to fulfil the objects which that
speech, and the motion founded upon it, were intended to
promote. The House is aware that a report has been
made by each of these Commissions—a report which, in
each case, does the highest pos.itsie credit to the views en-
tertained by the parties appointed Members of that Com-
mission, and to their mole of fulfilling the intentions for
which they were appointed. The report of the Conunon
Law Commission embraces several mattsrs of very high
importance to the administration of the law It refers to
the general despatch of business, and to the Courts of Com-
moo Law, and to certain parte of technical proceedings
connected with the commenotment of actioes at law.—
The second report its a few days will be presented,
and gentlemen will find that it embraces objects of. a
still higher concern than have been adverted to in the
first report. In the different coustnunicatione I bays
had wish the gentlemen composing the Commission for
entering into the practice of proceedings of Court* of
Common Law, I am informed that this second report of
the Commission will embrace, among many other matters,
this important subject : --First, the expediency of intrust-
ing the Courts of Common Law with the process of sum-
mary and equitable powers, in order to save time and pre-
vent an unnecessary resort to any of the Courts of Equity.
Another subject of great importance adverted to by the
Commissioners in the Report, is the verification of written
documents before trial. The third point would be a com-
pulsory reference to arbitrators in all matters of account.
The fourth point would be an abridgment and aimplifiva-
tion of the forms and language of Pleas.--(Hear, hear.)—
There were several other matters of scarcely less import-
ance, hut those that I have now named I know are deemed
by Members of this House to be matters of the very
highest consequence to the due administration of justice.
The Comatissioners who were appointed to consider and
Report upon the State of the Law relating to Real Pro-
perty have also made one Report ; and I trust that at a
very early period I shall be enabled to present to this
House another Report in continuation of the subject. With
reference to bosh of these Commissions, every Member
who has watched the progress of our own proceedings,
with reference to reforming of the law, will, I think,
fully admit that it is of the greatest importance that we
have been mtabled to csasider the whole question simul-
taneously and systematically. I would not wish to at-
tempt any partial or isolated improvement in one branch
o . .

of the l‘w ; bet I wished to embrace 'at _once the
whole stthjeet relating to the practice of the supe-
rior Courts of Law and to tke Law of Real Property;
for the two subjects arc so intimately interwoven, that
until I was possessed of the whole views of the Cormnis-
sinners, I thought it desirable to postpone any partial re-
forms, and to leave the subject until the whole could be
embraced together. Thera is anotker Commission that
has been appointed, not on the Address of this House,
hut by the command of his 14.1vjoety, for the purpose of
entering into the state of the Ecclesiastical LAW. This
Commission was appointed for the special purpose of re-
vis:ng the whole proceedings of erclereiastical suits, from
their very commencement to their close. The turns of
this Commission were very nearly corresponding to those
of other Ccuntsti•siona. So much for the preliminary
proceedings adopted for the purpose of presenting to the
Legislature a toll view of the nature of the subjects; and
highly important had been the results of these inquiries
by disinterested and dispassionate men appointed for the
purpose. The law, so far as it relates to the practice cf
the Superior Courts, and to the law of real proprrty, and
to the Ecclesiastical Courts, is now before the House.

The immediate object of the Bill which I elan present is
to facilitate the future proceedings of the two Commis-
sions, and to Icy the groundwork and foundation of ame•
liorating the law. The future object of this Bill will
be to regulate the appropriation of those fees which are
now recei►ed by officers who hold patent offices for

life or for a term of years. My experience of legal
reforms has satisfied me that tits existence of these
patent offices with their vested interests was the greatest
of all o6.teeles to reform of any sort. Nothing was
more difficult to deal with than this branch of the
subject, and whatever was attempted found an obstacle
in these patent fees. Here, then it becomes absolutely
necessary to look at Vet whole question of these vested
offices, and to devise some system by which the establish-
ment of vextel interests in Courts of Justice should be
brought completely before this House, so that this House
might deal tangibly with the subject, and at once bring it
to a close. Any attempt to introduce partial reform
would be met and defeated by these vested rights of patent
offices. The usual course is to proceed consistently with
justice in cases of these patent offices. I mean by com-
pensating the persons holding them ; and in the present
instance I propose that they should have a claim upon the
Consolidated Fund for the whole of the loss which► they
may sustain by any reforms to be introduced. But the
misfortune is, that the consequence of partial reform is to
affect the interests of some of these persons, and if cam•
pensatien is made them, when at a future period yon
come to deal with some other branch of the laws, you will
find that some other officer claims compensation for the lofs
of interests be derived from the business arising from the
previous arrangements. This has been the consequence
in Ireland of adopting partial reforms, and the public in
that country have been exposed to great inconveniences
and to pecuniary losses. I know of no other mode to re-
medy
this evil but to look all at once to the general ques-
tion of vested interests of pensioners holding patent offices
by such a tenure as to enable Parliament to proceed to
regulate the law, without giving to individuals new
claims for future compensations. Another object of the
Bill I shall introduce, will be to provide, in the first in-
stance, that after a day to be named, and which will be an
early day, no officer shall have any claim to compensation
fix any measures Parliament may adept with reference to
judicial proceedings in this Court. As to vested interests
and rights in patent offices, I have thought it mo►t eligible
in every respect, to provide fur thee in this way—to
enable Commissioners appointed by the Crown (and, to
save expense, I shall appoint the same Consinissionere who
are now inquiring into the practice of the Courts of Law)
to ascertain what has been the amount of fees received by
the sereral officers holding patent offices in Courts of Jus-
tice, and who have as interest for life, or for a term of
years, en an average of a certain number of years. I
shall confine this inquiry to the legality of offices.
propose to take a period of ten years, believing that that
extended period will he, on the whole, the most favourable
to the public, without doing any injustice to the isdivi-
duals. If a shorter period were to be taken, it would be
found not se favourable to the public interests. The ex-
traordinary extent of legal proceedings in the years 1825
and 1827, in consequence of the unfortunate state of the
country, had the effect of swelling the legal fees beyond their
average amount. Taking this period for ten years, I shall
propose that those fees should, for the presort, be received
on the public account, and constitute a fund, out of which
j►ersous having vessel interests, shall receive their compen-
sation for their losses, in proportion to the average of the
last ten years. When we conic to consider of the alterations
to be made in the practice of the Courts, the amount of fees
may be reduced on several parts of th• process of a suit. It
is °pea to Parliament to say whether it may not be expe-
dient, in commuting for the fees now paid, to provi ;e by
some means—such as a stamp upon instruments, a fund
sufficient to compensate those officers who have vested in-
termts during their lives. Let their fees be received ripen
the public account, and go to constitute a fund, out I '
which their compensations must be
.paid. Thee facts
would be amply auflivieat to remunerate such Wilco..

In 1928 the average of fees er:ectld that of the previoir4
five years, from 1h23 Ira 18'..1 and 1528 there was 3
great increa.ie iu the number of CUtlck:A is the Sitp,riue
Court*. I lately brought into this How a Bid fir the
recovery of Small Debts, and for reducing eliargo on .11
actions for tecorerint Debt. under Ten Pound.. I wtrs
at once met by the necessity of considering tie claims 01.
oevera! Patent Cfrioers, and from titling warning by On
example of Ireland. I was afraid to take the fees holt
those i,flis•ers least I should increase the el sine of other
officers, wii9m it would be nvot:ssary to remove in the SIIMIR
manner on s.ime otls, r occasions. Although it is not pos—
sible to adopt this measure withent the Anal Ilepoit of ti e
Commissioners, it is one which has excited at forint('
periods souse discussion in this Hoxec, and a very con-
siderable sensktion throngliont the country. I must nay
allude to th, proposal of alkili*hing Lots.' Juristlietims ss
they exist in Walea, and to assiorlice the law of shit
country to the itywein of this. lam quite satisfied, that
those gentletn,n who are met desirous of I,llpp:using the
dignity end independence of Wales wi 1 he induced to e.on-
Bider the subject maturdy and dispassionately, and ti de-
termine whether the time has not arrived in which we
ought to assimilate the laws and assimilate the permanent
interests of all the community. The English system of lair
and jurisdiction can now be safely introduced into that
c.At:itry. The House is aware that at present there are
four separate and independent jurisdirfons in Wales, taro
having a separate and independent set of offisers. There
are eight Judges who sulminiater justice. The officers of
these are tenabk, with seats in Padiament, and atoll

Judge is enaVed to practice as a I3arrist4r, and tae prac-
tice is for e4eit to he attachrri
_to one Circuit, iiibtvml of

going the Circuits generally. It certainly so hap lens that
at this montsnt there is but one Welsh Judge who .has
seat is this Hover, and it is impossilde to name anylexly
more independent in Parliament, or better calculeted to
promote the dignity of his judicial station; but the °lite
is to provide against the possibility of a union of the Per-
liamentary and Judicial function.. It would be a greet
improvement to prevent persons go sg permanently the
same small Circuits, for othereise it is impossible to avoid
local and personal ettichinert.. The.public
oeg t is be eoesulted ; and it is not only neceseery that
justice should be a lininietered impartially, but that public
opinion elaeu:d he impressed with the fact. But this Teem •
tion of \Archie jurid erien is presented to us under novel
circumstances ; for a point was raised about a year ago
whether the proceedings of a ',Trish euit were not morn
economical than in Luolan 1. Coneiherable doubts exist
as to this ; bet if it be so, why let the Welsh forma be
adopted in this country. Ds not let as confine this ad-
vantage to Wales; let es give it to Inglend. If there i 4
anything by which justice men lee expedited, or obteined it
a lower expense, there cannot be a better pre:edent that'
net to deprive Wales of tie a lvaetege, but to diffuse that
advantage over the United Kingdom. My object is to
Abel sh every technical form which is not absolutely ne-
twenty for the purposes of the impartial administration of
justioe. Another point most important is the present
state of business in the Courts of Common Law, To
this I must call the especial consideration of the Heave
It is the decided opinion of the Commissioners that it
is necessary to add to the number of Judges of the
inferior Gallas, with the view of preventing the ieeresee
of that arrear which has taken place in the administration
of justice. Toe Coininimsionere propose not to add to th 3
number of Judges who sit t igether, for they are decidedly
of opinion Viet the present numb r of four Judges het
great advantage over any other number. They think
that in a Court where a deoiiiion must be by a majority'
there should at least be a majority of three to one. lo
proposing, therefore, to add one Judge to each of the ea'
perior Courts, it is clear we would not be adding to the
number of Judges existing in fact. The House of Coe-
mons will then have to determine whether it will tie more
advisable to retain C.ese eight Welsh Judges, or to mhl
two or three Jude,* of Conemen Law, who might ho re-
tained to perform these duties which were heretofore the
business of the eight. The House will also have to eerie
eider whether, by agree* to retain these Welsh dodger
they will pronounce their judicial system to be more per-
fect than oar own; and it will also have to take into ae-
etount that by the a''olotion of thew eight Welsh Judges
we can ultimately promese to the country a saving of
9,8001. I must, for myself, say that it is my opinion we
should revise the system ; and I do not see that the Prin.

ripality should be opposed to it, because wales would nisi •

nudely benefit by the oaring that would be effected by the
abolition of four separate judicial establishments. re-
sides: Sir, the saving effected by the reduction of the
salaries of these Welsh Judges (if the House should
concur with um in the opinion they ought to be re-
duced) will provide for those additional Judges of the
superior Courts at Westminater-bal!--(Hear, heee,)--In
the :tame spirit of economy in which cation. other artessures
that we have thought it our duty to bring before the House
have been conceived, do I now advert without scruple t 3
an act which emanated from ourselves, and which hied
the szliries t f the English Ju Iges at 5,5001. a year. To is
was an increase upon the old salary, and objections were at
the time mull to this increae-. We certainly did not then
yield to these objections; but the act is open to reconsi-
sideration, and I have non no hesitation to declare I am of
opinion that 5,000/. a year will be sufficient for the main•
tmanee and dignity of all future Jude s. I think, too, Sir,
that proportioning the retiring allowance to the salary will
not be iejitrions ; it is therefore my intention to move kr
leave to bring in a Bill to revise that Act, and I shall theu
endi't7pdon to
theso Ifltoieni t aioYne of a k Hear, hear.)
propose, that in all future appointments to judicial offieci
tshir, as
eealarlyasmhalelnghaegli
administration of justice, I shalt take the opportunity of
mentioning what has been done with respect to the tmen4-
reform' in the
ment and consolidation of the Criminal Law. Sir, thi4 sub-
ject lies occupied the House since the year 1825. An Art
was then passed to consolidate and improve the laws le•
'sting to criminal justioe. That Act tended to remove the

difficTulties attending the conviction of an accessary bef;;
the fact—it regulated the expence of prosecutions noon
felonious tniademeanones—it remedied the evil of technical
defences, and it corrected some abuses in the estreating of
recognizAncett Four Acts for the improvement of criminal
justice were then passed. The first abolishes Benefit of
Clergy, making a pardon under the sign manual equivalent
to Benefit of Clergy. The second consolidated the laws re
specting burglary, embezzlement, and theft—the offenceo
against property. The third had the aline effect with respect
to the laws relating to malicious injuries against property
and the fourth related to the• consolidation of laws eon •
<with': remedies against the bundre4. In 1828 an Att
had been brought in to consolidate the laws respectin‘
ofEnces against the person; and I have the satisfaction of
knowing that great advantages hare accrued to criminal
justice front the Acts I have introdueed.—(Hear, hear.)--
In all, 272 Acts have been repealed--all the provisions of
which that were worth retaining are included in eight
Acts of Parliament ; and I du not find that any inoonve.
nience has resulted from either the repeal or the subetitn-
tion.—(Hear, hear.)—Having stated what has been done,
I will now proceed to state what I farther propose to de.
In the course of the present Session, Sir, I propose, with
the assistance of. my Right Hun. Friend the Master of the
Mint, to introduce a Bill for the enesolidatioa of the laws
relating to all offences against the coin yf the realm ; and it

is oar purpose to suggest, that such offences should Ito no
longer punishable as high treason. We likewise mean is
propose the consolidation-of all laws relating to forgery.
—(thar.)—There is only one more subject on which I
shall trouble the House ; it is oue of a something different
triture from that now before it, and it relates to another
part of the United Kingdom. to the course of last Ses-
sion it was proposed to increase the salaries of the Scotch
Judges to the same amount with those of the Judges tof
Zugland; but it was the general wish of the House dos%

the consideration of this matter should be postponed until
other circumstances, deemed of more immediate import.
sive, should be first taken into consideration, and then it
was said the question touching those salariee• might be
settled. Sir, oar time has been, in a great degree, devote'
to the consideration of this subject in the interval whirl'
has occurred since that debate, and we have busily em-
ployed ourselves in projecting a general revision. of the
Scotch LAW. And, Sir, I trust, that with the support of
my llonourable Friend, the Lord Advocate, I shall be able
to propose some measure to improve the adatin'eteation of
justice in that part of the kingslent. Sir,.it is our opi-
nion that the time has come when the Jury Court msy hoe
abolished, and its businees transferred to the Court of Ses-
sion; and this transfer we shall make under such eh-cries.
stances as will, I have no doubt, ensure it the universal
approbation. I thick, Sir, that the period has arrive
when the Jury system must he engrafted upon the instite-
tions of the country. It has been,alreatly tried under the
auspices of the Chief Commissioner of the Jury Court for
fifteen years, and great advantages had been found to re-
sult to S-otland from the proceedings of this Court. New
the fifes nt Cornmissiener would, on the destruction of this
Court, he entitled to a large portion of his salsry ; we
therefore propose to retain his tervicts at the Court cf
Session. We also propose to abolish all separate ju•islic-
tion of the Court of Admiralty of Scotland, as Ire.'
as to recommend a reduction in the camber of
judges in the Cunsistorial Court from four to one, as We
!Neat' to transfer all questions of legitimacy, marriage, and
&voice, to the Coutt of Session. In ti.e Court of Ex-
chequer, too, we, will. reduce two from the number of the
Barons appointed by the Act of Union. The business. of

this Court cm be transacted by the as welt as by the
fotir 15arous now iu utliccy .11, considerable saving will be

I,

►e tho
before
ty(al

ing of
►ninal

.14t of
Wen 6
rs re

rencot
teritc't
erty
eon •
Act

ti nx
on of

rutirot 1
r. }--
In• of

eight
)nve-

rfr,rtvil by these rednetions. I also third: that some re-
duction, in :3, be made in the. Court i f Session ; but to title
I will not pledee myeell. I stn not, however, without
hope tint the number et-Judges !tiny he reduced front seven
five, although we shall increase their duties; by the trans-
fer of hnsiness from these other (marts. With respect to
the 'Lavine that will reenit from this, I meet venture to say
it will ultimately amount to 10,0001. ; for, in addition to
the !laving upon Jo lges' salaries, we shall, by the transfer
of the bueieees of the Jury Court to the Court of Session,
h" dispense will, the two principal Ci .rks of
Session. I here now presented a generel view of the stub-
jeet to the Homo. ; we shall hare In oly ipportunides of
dimctosszrie it in detail, and considering many of those
Pont. which, from or leek of teeheicel knowledge, I
would hive been unable (had I felt ulieptueed) to lay !before
them.—(llietr, bear.)-1 have etriculy confined myself to
a ;eviler view of the proposed alterations and reductions
whielt I felt would be the most acceptable and intsliigilule
to thou, not pireeseeing professional knowledge. And I
frost I have eueceediel io allottuing that the measures we
eontemplete would hive the c ffeet of improving and render-
ing more expeditious the administratioo of jit.tice ; and
I hope time [louse will 'ire us credit for being influenced
he no motive except the public good in recommending
those alterations. Sir, whateeer may be the value set
'limn our institutions, it must sorely be conceded that they
Slay he with propriety :lite, ed, when thet alteration is at-
tended with an improvement in the moral state, the public
Prosperity, and private romforte of the people. And,
"rely, Sir, nothing cart tend more strongly to this effect
than meeenree calculated to preserve the rights and vindi-
cate the wrongs of the individuals, as expedition, purity,
and dimini•]cecl expellee in the administration of justice
must ussure&y ilia —( Load cheers.)—The Right Hon.
Secretary euincluilcil by moving for leave to !urine in a
Bill to reguilete the epprooriation of the fees to public
oflieers in the Courts of Common Law.
Ale. BROUGHAM commenced by stating lie would
eonfine hinself to a general view of the subject, as many
opportunities would ocsur of discussing it in detail.
Nothing, he thought, could be better than the Right Hon.
Secretary eginnine, and if he differed with him in any
pollute hereafter, it would be, because he (Mr. B.) might
tot suppose he (Mr. reel) had gone far enough. He
would now too rapidly over the various topics touched
neon by the Eight lion. Secretary ; and first, ae to
the Welsh Jurisdietioe, he was ilecideslly Of opinion
that the time had arrived when it ought to be
abolished. The objections to this source of proceeding
were twofold-ISt. The increased expense---2d. That
in doingeo you we'll,' abolish a system convenient and good
hi practice. Now the answer to the first was obvious,
hetaume it appeared front the statement of the Right Hon.
Secretary, that even deducting the !salaries of the additional
Jedeee of Common Law, there would ultimately he a saying
of A,BOOl. He might say, he believed that, upon the
whole, there world ultimately be a mitring of 11,800/., be-
cause there would also he a reduction in the salaries of
clerks, prothonotarits, and so forth. Therefore, the first
objection was met. The other was also answered, and
thoa they got rid of all those arguments in favour of a se-
Pirate jurisdiction which were urged whh so much lege-
nuitr, and certainly with no lack of real.—(Hear, and a
laugh.)—Fir the cireemetancce of the case were simply
this :—Either the Welsh eyet(in of judicature was or was
not better than ours. If it was not (as be suspected it
Was nor), there was an end to the argument, and they
'should at once aesimilate the administration of justice in
the two countries ; lint if the contrary, the reason for this
aaeimilation was still stronger, since there could be no pre-
tence fur of jecting to extend this more advantageous sys-
tem to us. Wales would have no right to complain, and
the rest of the kingdom would be benefited. One impor-
tant advantage to he gained by this measure would be an in-
eteastui purity in the administration of justice ; for if the
cieht Welsh Judges were abolished, and two Judges of West-.
tnineter HallsuLstituted for them, there did not remain to the
Minister the same quantity of Perliamentary influence. Tice
away of eight places, though of smaller value, was
Ikmore 'useful than the two of higher emolument.
nlea there was not the %arm, scope for trafficking in the
appointment of Judges in Westminster-Hall as in those
• 'Veldt Judges, because seareely Any Minister, however
strong his nerves might be, would venture to meet Parlia-
ment after trafficking in a Judge of Westminster Hall; and
indeed, considering the necessity of electing a person of
good reputation with the profession, and of proper qualif-
y:l6one and attainments, he did not believe that, with a
watchful country and a watchful Parliament, it was pos-
sible to make any improper or unfair promotion. In the
Welsh appointments, however, it was by no means the
same, notwithstanding all the watchfulness of the country
and of Parliament. There a :Minister might traffic, and such
patronage was most valuable, because the most culpable of
being alunsod. Speaking as a legal man, also, he approved of
the alteration, since whatever gave Government influence
tended to lower the profession ; And he had observed that
the hope of a judicial situation in Wales tendril to make
many Barristers at least suppress their opinions respecting
the acts of the Administration. Therefore he augured
that the constitutional effect upon the change would bean
increased purity in the administration of justice; and the
effect on the legal profession would he to increase its inde-
pendence. In every view, therefore, political or profes-
sional, the alteration was the best possible. The next
point was the Administration of Justice in Scotland, and
in this also be concurred in opinion with the Right Hon.
Gentleman. He thought that the number of Scotch
Judges, now amounting to twenty, might be advert.
tageouely diminished while their salaries were increased,
the more especially as it appeared that a saving might thus
be ultimately effected. The extent of Ministerial pa-
tronage would lie diminished, which, at present, was
enormous. No mean., he begged to impress upon the
Right lion. Gentleman, ought to be spared to uphold the
eystem of Trial by Jury in Scotland; the lawyers there
had corns slowly and reluctantly to the system. Men en-
gaged is Civil business during their lives had a great oh-
.leetiim to a change in that which had been so long the
°hject of their study. Government, therefore, should sup-
Port the system with a firm hand ; it hid already improved
the administration of justice in Scotland. The expense
judicial proceedings was diminished, end they were
!ouch ehortened. This was obvious from the cases which
had lately come up to the High Court of Parliament
'h-
y no hunger appeared under a mass of paper,
It„,!th which no Judge coulul grapple. This was the
Peet cf the investigation of facts by a Jury. While
h.
e was on this pert of the subject he would take the
nlVertunity of suggesting, that the Act which rendered
tt tioteasary to have recourse-to a member of the Scotch
ar when the office of a Lord of Session was to be filled
141,, heeaarie the Scotch practitioners had only lately been
made acquainted with the practice of Jury Courts, and
Were, not, of course, as familiar with the rules of evidence
a%tarly, in
esn?erobers of the English Bar : great difficulty lied
euneequence, existed with respect to the selec-
tion of a Lord Advocate ; and though they haul been for-
tooate enough to have at that time a gentleman in that
'lace who was at once a Scotch Advocate and an Ent,,tlali
rrister, yet they should consider that, in the event of
rt'igoetion or deceaee, there would be infinite difficulty
114 "Pplying his place. In a word, be thought it would
most valuable improvement in the Jury Courts to do
4With the restriction which confined the choice of
bo_tes to the Scotch Bar. The Exchequer Court was a
NT Court, and the restriction, I believe, did not obtain
tha The office of Judge there might be filled up from
hZEnglish Bar, and yet as only one English Barrister
becla promoted there since the Union, although all the
03: Barons might have been cleated from this Bar, be
w "ended that there was no reason for apprehending there
~N:u1(1 be any endue exercise of influence in other Courts.
scotVY, he believed, could say it was unjust, until
sh '4l'd was better aceustoimd to the Jury system,
at
e Judge in each C•curt should be taken from
~e;t.ttr-.ogliali Bar. These were the few observations that
ed to him during the statement of the Right lion.
eloateitArY. As to the rest, lee thought the Right Hon.
"nail deceived himself if he fancied the addition of
on, ,
th "age to each of the Courts in NiTeetminster Ilall, or
Ortodf s:llet.etilnl of the monopoly of barristers in one Court,
.ettors in another, or the improvement of enabling
L lidg(!t" of business to be originated in all the three Courts,
carne "I placing them on the same footing—allowing the
11,,,e_13:trrietera, the sauna Solicitors, the same suitors to
irr;_v M all these Courts---would have the effect of creat-
li.ri;:n (vial division of business before the different Courts.
~.i,,Jever, the Right Hon. Gentleman thought other-
Peel) to foretell that, even if he (Mr.
coeSysru,
pi icing Judges of equal talent lend
egneli
acter in each of the Courts, time business would not be
eeo .
the f, , for the King's Bench was in posiession ;it was
yourite Court; the suitors thronged into it : the best
practitioners and the bestwere consequently to hue
foutne tho Judges
re. But he repeated, that even if the Judges
;:i.e_liistributed in the fashion he supposed, the practice
inveterate
P, that it never could be corrected, except
tun.lfempulPerhaps, her continued, the Right
rte•Secrecoter •
YNA not aware of the great increase ofas
well _ls he Court of King's Bench—in Bank business
been
a: he City hueineas. The fact
wag, there bed
eau_ increase in one year of seven or eight thousand
, and of course there was a considerable arrear. Now
is'nntchteare°reatirrt; of
is he observed, God knows there
thudlto tise the language common in Westmin-
sterillall,
So
iititine are no sooner up than they are
dnwn-ngain."
deed, thit they bad e pressure of business was there, in-.
°nll some two or threes sittings in a

whole vacation, and yet their trifling business was even '
falling off, will' e tli i:nn.;-14,, in the King's Bench had
been seven or eight t :rev-, and laughter. ;
The more the subj../ t wes smined bite, the more would
it become apparen,, tout wihout some slop taken to make
it compulsory on pirties t, co into cert•in Courts, no ad-
vantage equal to thtt which was expected would he de-
rived from the alteration. To be sure, unless the Courts
were nearly equalized, and the other requisite Challgf., were
conceded, it weull be a great injustice to put this compulsion
on the suitors ; though even then the injustice would
hardly be creator than that now experienced by the peo-
ple of dilf-rent countries, whose causes were tried at the
Assizes by Judges whom they did not select, but who
choowe the particular circuits, and in that manner might be
said to appoint themselves to try the Causes upon them.
Tnese were a few of the observations which struck him
upon this :question. He would now only add, that he
slannlil reserve his opinion on the merits of the measure,
tinti it fairly came before the [louse ; but as far as he he!
heard at present, he was gratified in being able to say
that he heartily concurred with it.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said there was one point to
which he wished to call the attention of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and which he was sorry to. see omitted in the
measure now about to be proposed to the House ; he meant
a Court which was one of the must important, if not the
most important in the kingdom—the Court of Privy
Council. He had hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman
would have been prepared to submit some plan to the
House respecting that Court, which was row most imper-
fect, as far as regarded the great objects it had to carry
into effect. It was composed of a Judge, generally -of
great talents, hut who only occasionally set there when he
had little or nothing to do in hi, own Court. It was, in-
deed, a sort of secondary office, filled by the Mester of the
R dls. Yet it was a Court requiring almost above all
others the most lea' nod Judges of the land—Judges
coenizant of all kinds of causes, and of every sort of law ;
instead of which there were often persons forming tl:e
Court who were not only ignorant of the particular cases
before them, but of all the general law applicable to such
causes. He admitted that he had sometimes seen these
persons assisted by a Judge of the Court of Admiralty—by
an officer who had held a situation in our Foreign Settle-
ments—and sometimes even by officers connected with the
Woods and Forests—and these were the Judges that w,re
to decide on the rights of one hundred millions of people.
He hoped the Right Hon. Gent. among his laudable en-
deavours to reform the administration of justice, would at
last entitle himself to the gratitude of that great body of
rople, by taking into consideration the interests of
those whose whole property lay within the power of adjudi-
cation of this Court. Ho would now advert to one or two
other topics, awl refer to the courts in that part of this
kingdom in which he would not conceal from the House he
felt more interested than in any other—he ateant Scotland,
If he had known that this discussion would hare been
brought on, he would have provided himself with, the means
of showing, that instead of the Judges of the Court of Sec-
tion enjoying their salaries without labour, there were no
men who performed more constant and unrernitted duty
than they. He pledged himself, that if ever there should
be an occasion for entering into that discussion, he would
show that there were no Judges more usefully, meritori-
ously, and beneficially employed, than these Learned Per-
sons. He afire. d with the:Hon. Member for Knaresborougb,
that the Trial by Jury ought to be upheld in Scotland. lie
would not go further at present into the subject with re-
spect to the ameliorations of the Law of Scotland. He was
happy to find that the Consistorial Court was not to be re-
duced to one Judge. There was no such objectionable trii,l
as that before one Judge; and if he were to decide, he
would rather aboli,h the Court altogether than leave it in

the hands of one Judge. He could sty with respect to many
of the individuals who now sat in that Court, and he said it
on the authority of Lord Stowell that the administration of
the jurisdictior•. of that Court bad never been exercised with
more ability or integrity, or in a more judicial manner. He
concurred with the Hon. Member fur Knaresborough, that
to the Chief Commissioner of the Jury Court was owing
whatever was good in the administration of justice there;
and if the present Learned Judge should retire, unless a
good English barrister was appointed to succeed him, or to
assist his successor, Soot' Ind would lose much of that
benefit she might otherwise obtain from the institution of
a Jury Court. He recommended, indeed, that some per-
son conversant with the technicalities and detail of the
Jury trials here, and who would enforce that proper strict-
ness in them which was seen in this country, should assist
in the administration of that Court, or Scotland might
otherwise lose much of the benefit she had derived from
it. He was sorry he could not as the same thing with
respect to the forms of the process. Written pleadings
he did not think beneficial—they did not abridge the la-
bour of the Judge, nor make the case clear for his deci-
sion; while the speech of the advocate was full as long, if
not longer than before. He thanked the Right Hon.
Gentleman for what he had already done, but there were
atill many timings that might require consideration, and
opinions ought not as yet to be pledged on the limits to
which they might go. With respect to the Welsh jndi_
cature, he thought it would be desirable if the benefit of
having English Judges were extend,d into Wales. At the
same time he hoped that the wishes of the people of Wales
might be consulted, and that their present Courts might
not be taken away, except the change was manifestly fur
the advantage of tl:e people, who seemed at present to
be somewhat inclined to retain their old customs. He
thought it important that the Welsh Judges should not
retain their seats in that House ; and he hoped the Right
Hon. Gentleman would lay down the principle, that no
judicial officer whatever should bit there : he did not even
except the Master of the Rolls.
Mr. HUME thought the system now in operation in
Scotland was had, and the sooner it was got rid of the better.
lie would only entreat the Right Hon. Gent. not to put
'he country to any further expence, unless it was shown to
he absolutely necessary. He believed that if he had now
certain Returns from Scotland, for which he would take
an early opportunity of moving, he should be able to show
that the Scotch Judges did not do more than half the work
of the Judges of England. That was the case especially
with the Barons; and he believed these Returns would
show that not more than ten cases came before the Barons
in one year ; and instead of increasing the numbers of the
Judges, three out of the four of those he hail mentioned
might be dispensed with, and of the others nearly one-half
might be reduced. They only sat five months in the year—
they began business at ten, and never sat after three o'clock;
and their whole employment was so small, that far from
thinking there should be any addition to the public expen-
diture in Scotland on the score of Judges, he was of
opinion that the Right Hon. Gent. ought to reduce the
■umber of Judges now existing. When he obtained these
Returns, he should be able to prove what he now stated.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON, in explanation, did not wish to
maintain all things precisely as they were, and lie should
himse:f have moved for these Returns if the Hun. Member
for Aberdeen bad not anticipated him.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL agreed with those Hon.
Gentlemen who said that the greatest consideration was
necessary to he applied to each portion of this important
subject, and for that reason he thought that some thanks
were due to Hon. Gentlemen who had bestowed attention
upon them, rather than reproaches for any omission of
which they had been guilty. So much was due to the
Hon. Member for Knart-sborough. With respect to what
had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member opposite,
he must say that his impression was against a compulsory
judicial division of the business of the Courts, for it was
well known how much parties disliked to quit that Court
and those Advocates which they had especially selected.
He was old enough to remember when the Court •f Ex-
chequer, even constituted as it note was, possessed a con-
siderable practice, and was able to support an exclusive
Bar. Undoubtedly its business had now diminished, and
the Court of King's Bench now attracted time great tna•
jority of suitors ; but he imagined that some cause for
that change might be found in the rapidity with which
cases could be bromght to trial in the latter Court. Ile
only rose for the purpose of giving notice that he intended
shortly to propose a Bill for the more effectual adminis-
tration of justice in England cud Wales, in the discussions
on which, he trusted he should have the advantage of the
presence of his Hon. and Learned Friend.

- Mr. O'CONNELL never heard anything that gave him
more satisfaction than the clear and distinct statement of
the Right Hon. Gent. ; and instead of being surpr:sed that
he could not go more minttely into the technicalities of
the subject, it was matter of astonishment that he had
been able to compress so much in so short a statement.—
There was peace in what he said. It was a clear admission
of the necessity for improvement—of the fact, that the
Government were not hostile to a change—that they did
not even oppose the via inertice of a silent resistance, but
that they wished for a reform of notorious and long felt
abuses.—(Hear.)—Ile only regretted that when the Cimrt
of Admiralty was mentioned, something had not been said
of another Court of Admiralty besides that in Scotland.—
No doubt it was not forgotten, although it had not been
alluded to. He only meant at this moment to take up the
quostiou of blending the jurisdiction of the Admiralty with
the Consiatorial Court, and giving an equitable juris-
diction to the Courts of Common Law, and the hope
that was held up that there would be a complete amal-
gamation of all the Courts : so that juttiee could lie ob-
tained by one simple and intelligible mode of proceeding, in-
stead of a party being compelled to resort to several dif-
ferent modes of recovering his tight. If a Judge WO fit for

one Court, be must be fit for all. .`,e a proof, be
refer to the late ~Vtorn,y-Genfq.d, ,olght hav,
Chief Justice of the Kind % Bench, hot Who 'vts
Chancellor,—a fact which provd i i,n to be lit for roper
Court. —(Hear, hear.)—He did not wish to le,re the
Chancery as it now was. Its pro eess V 72.3 as cumbrous
as possible ; and if it were now to be created ab
there WWI no one who would rmture. to recommend such a
vicious coarse C f prm•ceding as it no g exhibited, and
which was rather a nuisance than a lieneiit to the country.
He asserted that there ought to be but one simple mole of
proceeding for all people in the recovery of their rights.
The next thing he should wish to see seas the establish-
meta of Local Tribunals throughout the country. Why a
min in Cornwall or Cumberland was to be compelled, in
order to obtain a debt there, to send up to London for a hit r f
parchment, irt,l what magic there was in such a process,
he knew nat, an-I he should, therefore, wish to see the
evil abolished. There were to be Courts for the recovery of
small dtbts in every County. Why not Courts for the re-
covers of large debts ? If the Judge was fit to decide on
one, he was equally fit to decide on the other. Surely
be !ghoul I not be tell in that House, that the business
of the rich and wealthy required a different Judge from
the business of the weak and poor. He did not look
to London for the establishment in one focus of a number
of Courts, with great Liwyers end rich Judges—but he
looked for the establishment of a number of Tribunals that
would dispense justice in the different counties in the
kingdom to their various inhabitants. The third matter
which he wished to notice was the subject of special
pleading. He was most happy to hear that the technical
eel:ern of pleading was to be abolished ; and that its forms
were to be reduced to something like common sense. Such
forms were an outrage to those who could penetrate their
meaning, while they were utterly unintelligible to the mass
of mankied.—(llear, hear.)—The Right Hon. Gentle-
man himself had afforded a proof of their difficulty and
unintelligibility, by having been himself unable to go into
the minute:details of technical knowledge. Why should there
he in this country anything in the laws with which that
Right Hon. Gentleman was unable to make himself fully
acquainted ?—(Hear.)—Was it not disgraceful to the laws
that a gentleman of his talents and industry should be igno-
rant of a very material part of them?—(Hear.)—lf it
were thus, why not abolish the witchcraft of these forms,
and make the law which was to govern ell intelligible to
all ? Was it not disgraceful to a country like England that
decisions eheuld take plays in her Courts upon the forms of
the p'eadings contradistinguished hod the merits of the
case ?--(Hear, hear.)—He trusted he should live to see the
day when a Judge would be ashameel to say he decided a
ease on forms, on those forms which a Counsel or an At-
t 'racy might mistake, but which could not affect the right
or equity of the claim set up by the party himself. A great
deal had been seid on the subject of fees. They ought to
he a'oolisked. There should be no turnpike tolls cm the
road to Justice.—( Hear, hear.)—under the present sys.
ton, a roan who was not able to pay the fees of the officers
of Justice was deprived of Justice, for he could not go into
the Courts to claim it, so that it was only given to those
who could well afford to pay for its purchase._( Hear.)—
The first great reform in the law ought to he to make law
cheap. The Judges and the officers ought to be paid he
the public, and a man who wished to assert his rieht
in a Court of Justice ought not to be stopped on his
entrance there with a demand of fees. which, if he
could not satisfy, woul I prevent him from recovering
his right. The Honourable Member near him bad com-
plained of their being only one Judge in a Court. He
(Mr. O'Connell) thought that was quite enough ; and he
had the authority of England in his favour, since not
only there was but one Judge in the Court of Chan-
eery, in the Vice-Chancellor's Court, and in the Court
of the Master of the Rolls ; but we had recently deprived
the Chief Baron of the company of his Learned Brothers,
and had made him a solitary Judge in an Equity Court of
his own. There were few who recollected well what the
Courts were that would not say one Judge was sufficient
in each, and that the other three only delayed the party,
God knows how long, before he could get his case derided.
He threw out these ideas as preparatory to what he recom-
mended the Right Hon. Gentleman to bring forward as a
thing necessary above all others—be meant the formation
of a code for England. All other countries haul codes, and
why should England be behind them in the simplicity of
her laws ? The principle of codification eras good. The
Right lion. Gent. eras proud, and justly proud, of his
amendments in the criminal law. What were those
amendments but the principle of codification? Should he
be told that society and its transactions were too compli-
cated for snch a code? Why we affected now to have a
law fir every subject; and if there was not one of them
in the form of a statute, the Judges applied their own de-
cisions to the case, and that created the judge•made law,
than which nothing could be more defective and uncertain.

Mr. PEEL said he had purposely avoided entering into
some parts of the subject of the Scotch Law, having re-
served them for a future opportunity. He had no objec-
tion to the returns of the business of the Scotch Courts
being laid before the House ; but he believed, when they
came to be examined, they would not be found to sustain
the opinion of the I-lon. Member opposite. Ile had
heard, with great satisfaction, the temperate and judicious
manner in which the lion. and Learned Member for Clare
had entered into this discussion, but he could not go quite
the length of that Hon. and Learned Member as to the
necessity for absolutely putting an end to special pleading.
lie believed that in the next Report of the Commissioners
it would be recommended to substitute a special plea for
the general inane. 'fhere was no topic more popular than
the formation of a Code, but he wished Hon. Gentlemen
who recommended such a measure, would first ascertain
the extent of the commentaries upon the Code Napoleon.
It was advantageous to lay down a clear rule—but it was
impossible to foresee every thing, and the shorter the rule
the more was left to the Judge i❑ its application. Now
that had always been complained of as an evil.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the difference between this
country and France was, that we bad the materials fur a
owls in our present laws, which only required compres-
sion and arrangement ; but the cede of France was dif-
ferent in that respect.
Leave was given to bring in the Rill
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.

The Marquis of BLANI)FORD, in making the motion
of which he Lad given notice, on the subject of abuses in
elections, spoke as follows :—I rise to answer the call
made o❑ me last Session, and, following the course then
suggested for my adoption by my Right Hon. opponent,
the Secretary of State fur the Home Department, to offer
for the consideration of this House " a practical detailed
measure :" and first, Sir, I must preface the observations I
shall have occasion to address to you, by calling to the re-
collection of this House the course pursued by the upon the
occasion I have referred to. I then, Sir, eanaidered it my
duty to divide the House upon the question whether Par-
liament would or would not be pleased by a formal reso-
lution to recognise the existence and venality of the close
and decayed boroughs, for that really was the whole of the
question which I thought it advisable to submit to the
House, under the very singular opposition I met with from
the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department. The
venality of these boroughs is as sure as their existence, and
both are equally notorious ; but there is a wide difference
between the notoriety of such offences, and a Parliamen-
rary recognition of their existence. Mere notoriety begets
defiance of public opinion and a fearless habit of offending.
But, if Parliament, by a formal vote, had put its brand-
mark upon these transactions—if, by:some general resolu-
tion, it had stigmatised them as crimes against the law of
Parliament and the Constitution ofthe country, a good foun-
dation would then have been laid for the Reform of what had
been declared to be true, for the prevention of what had been
denounced as illegal. But it did not 'teem good to the ma-
jority of this House to hurt the sensibilities of the borough-
monger, by calling his trade by its proper name, or to injure
his interest, by laying that his gain: were condemned by
Parliament and the country. The people, however, will
speak out, though Parliament may choose to keep silence,
or !nay try to impose silence upon others. The ♦oice of
the country is not to be Riffled by a vote ei this House—
it will be in ♦ain to attempt to smother truth—not all the
finesse of all the political intriguers, nor all the power of
all the political despots, will be able to stem or turn aside
the current which is now setting is, full and strong,
against the present system of chaffering for seats in this
House. It is in vain to attempt to deck these transactions
in all sorts of gaudy colours, and to call them happy
methods of introducing to public notice modest merit and
latent talent, and virtue, and patriotism, and I know net
what besides. It is in vain to reckon upon the Whigs
and the Tories •f note, and of no note, who have contrived
to bring themselves, and their independence, into Parlia-
ment by these back gates sad by-ways. The thing re-
tains the Ramie character of corruption, whether it gene-
rates the venal Statesman, or the useful Member of Par-
liament ; the splendid fly that soars in this House upon
the wings of eloquence, or the grub that feels upon the
vitals of the country—corruption is the f !thee of them
all. Neither will all the speeches of all the approvers of
such a system be able to make corruption incorrupt, or
convert the borough business into a blessing, or legalise
the wholesale trade of selling seats. As matters now
stand, the fury of the law may be said to mistake its objects
it passes over the daring outrages upon the Constitution,
in order to fall with redoubled violence upon the petty
assaults and petty larcenies committed against the rights
and liberties of the subject and the purity of elections.
The 13t01112 of Purliarnoutuy weal-none has fallen upon

small trd, 4.neo anal retill (letters in the bribery line—
Da: vexat umsura columbas.
Jany a Ivor:l3' p,mrs its thunders upon the head of
the s•ervt.ling sk:IN his vote, and dines upon his degra-
dation; but 4;:n• Code contains no store of wrath, no pains,
nor p;•naitie4, nor con,ures, fk:r the great and extensive
ready-money trade in returns to Pariarnent. Seats, two
or ten at a time, may be ;,ought tud sJI, and all coneernrd

will continue, all, ell honourable man—and they will find
in this House not mei cly apologists, but panegyrists—they
eon/ be even extolled for true patriots—and the ready-
money method of getting a seat is extolled too, and is called
patriotic, and expedient, and constitutional, and just as it
ought to be. But, Sir, I cannot concur in such sentiments;
such panegyric and philosophy arc alike adverse to my views
and cenvictionn--and hi: Fyn:, for the country, and all its great
interests, his Majesty's Ministers do not appear to participate
in these opinions--I certainly have never heard theta take
that fine of defence, or nailer empty declamation, and most.
impotent delusion. They hare never set foot upon that
slippery and hollow ground ; so that, in spite of the /10p-
tiVe by which the Right lion. Gentleman opposed my re-
solution last Session, I shall continue to think that Go-
v,rament Inv be disposed to treat the question of Reform,
not in the spirit of party politicians or borough traders,
but upon the at ineinles of truth and nelson. Agreeably,
therefore, Sir, to the terms of my notice, and in conformity
with what I would fain hope I :night find to be the
disposition of the Government, I will endeavour to make
the questiou one of prisiciple, and not of party. I will
refer it altogether to the decision of the Law and Con-
stitution. I will make them the criteria of what is right
and wrong—true and false—sincere and corrupt, in re-
spect of our Parliamentary Returns. Now, Sir, without
going into :Lily abstract question about the rights of popular
representation, without touching the historical contro-
versies upon that point, without investigeting, the origin
of Parliaments or Parliamentary Councils, it may (and as
I think, safely) be laid down that national councils, of
some sort and denomination, are coeval with our existence
as a nation. Normans—Saxons—Britons—.all had them.
These are facts capable of being established by recorded
evidence, not truths deducible by arguing from natural
principles and probabilities. We find the vestiges of
popular representation, the elements of a Parliament, in
all parts and periods of our history. To trace the steps
by which this primitive right was inoulded into its present
shape end size, to show by what collision of contending
interests it has been compressed and restrained from with-
out, by what elasticity from within it has often struggled
for expansion—to cast up the number of all the political
conflicts in which the question has been involved, though
interesting, are unnecessary speculations. Tne inquiries
WC have to deal with are, whether the people are, or
are not, at this time represented according to the mani-
fest purpose and designs of the laws and the Constitu-
tion of the country—( Hear, hear,)--or whether, by the
lapse and vicissitudes of time, greet changes have taken
places in the state of our Parliamentary representation, or
rather in its very principles and efficiency; and whether
any thing can be found in the altered state of our political
relations, foreign or domestic, to prevent a return to the
original practice, sod the fundamental principles of the
Constitution. As to the question, then, whether the
people are or are not repre,ented in a manner conformable
with the principles and purposes of the Constitution, not-
withstanding the ingenuity of a Paley, or the eloquence of
a Conning, I assert that they are not so represented : it
is contrary to those principles that decayed and desolate
places should return Members to this House—it is contrary
to those principles that seats in this House should be
bought and sold ; —and first, as to the fixedness of the re-
turns of representatives from towns and boroughs—the
same nunitor from the same places, let whet will be their
state and condition, as to the density, or thinness, or no-
thingness, of their population—their wealth or their po-
verty—their commercial or agricultural strength or weak-
ness. Now hers, Sir, we Mel at once a wide departure
from the principle that gave birth to the returns of citizens
and burgesses. Without wishing to re-invest the Crown
with its old discretion of issuing its summons to this or
that tr wn or boron ;b, according to some tea I.ir supposed
superiority which it possessed over others, 1 cannot but
obesrve that the variableness perceived in the issue of
these writs, and the teturns made upon them, suggests
this important conclusion—that in those ancient days,
which some may be disposed to call days of political
ignorance, civic or municipal prosperity stems mainly
to have determined the fitness of the city or borough
for the elective franchise. lam aware that there are sonic
outstanding questions upon this point; and that it has
been contended that the King in early times was wont to
summon none but the Royal boroughs—none but own te-
nants on burgage tenure—to cents to his Councils, and
settle their rates of contribution to his wants ; but this
will not account for the nature, number, and diversity of
the early returns; and I think it is clear, from the history
of the places themselves, that much depended upon their
prosperity. 'When towns and boroughs were seen to
thrive, the King's favour was also seen to follow their
good fortune ; and when their gold was seen to glitter,
the Crown discovered the means of satisfying its necessi-
ties, and found abundant reasons for calling upon them to
send their citizens and burgesses to Parliament ; for whe-
ther it was the King, or the King's officer, who se-
lected the cities or boroughs, it makes no difference to my
argument; it was their wealth and prosperity which de-
termined the choke—their ability to defray the expenres
of their cimisens and burgesses during their attendance in
Parliament—their rank as trading towns—their right to
Ise represented, by reason of their commercial weight
and greatness—in short, Sir, whatever might be the
motive, public or private, which determined the Royal
choice, it was the consequence of the town, under
some relation or another-1 mean its political conse.
quence—which pointed it out as 11 proper subject for
these Parliamentary honours. If, then, this:changeable-
ness in the issue of writs of summons be admitted,
as it must be, for it is au historical fact, it will not
only throw light upon the present unintelligible returns
from places of no consideration; but further, it will sug-
gest:the fitness of recurring to primitive principles, and of
transferring elective franchises from old foss-ways and
crumbling castles, from the solitude of the plain and the
ploughed field to the busy haunts of men—to the indus-
trious, and the intelligent, and the independent, among
the sons of agriculture and commerce. But besides this
departure front the ancient principles and practice of Par-
liamentary Representation, there .is another which: has
taken place, and which may be said to have arisen out of
it, 'When boroughs became the sepulchres of .departed
greatness and prosperity, retaining nothing of their former
condition but their name, and their soil, and their custom
of returning one or two Members to Parliament, they be-
came the property of tile rich and the powerful; and in-
stead of being dependent, as they originally were, upon
the pleasure of the Crown for their writs of summons,
they became dependent upon the !pleasure of their pur-
chasers, for the returns of those writs—and their writs
of summons and charters of incorporation, (like other
paper arid parchment securities), became marketable com-
modities, conveying to the buyer the certainty of honours,
and the contingency of profits in this House—this also
is a manifest departure from constitutional principles
and practice. When towns and boroughs were first
called upon to send Representatives to Parliament, it
was not intended to decorate these places, in their
decay and downfall, with immortal honours, or to
make their lifeless bodies fetch high prices, like subjects
for dissection—it was not the design to invest the silence
and desolation of ruined streets, and market places, with
the everlasting right of sending a couple of Members to
ths National Council. It was never meant to help on the
speculations of craft, or the gains of avarice, or the pro-
jects of ambition, by making seats and franchises, articles
the best bidder. But, Sir, these depa,r-
to be bought by
tures from ancient principles, these violations of ancient
practice, have not only taken piece in the manner of
making returns front three close and decayed boroughs (in
which returns nothing can now be discovered) like " franche
et due election," according to the ancient Statute; nothing
like the principle in the ancient writ " quod oinnes tangit
ab omnibus approbetur ;" but there are still more remark-
able violation, and departures in respect of the qualifica-
tions of the burgesses returned—by the ancient laws and
practice they were to be " resident indwellers and free-
men of the borough or city they represented, and no
others"—" Nuls mitres in nulls maniere." It is true
that these laws were repealed—it is true also that,
to the Repealing Act, we may fairly ascribe much
of the mischief that now exists. Boroughs are now
supplied with Representatives from every other de-
scription of pet lons, except residents and in, dwellers,
or persons locally connected with these boroughs.—
We may look through time whole series of Cornish returns,
and scarcely find a Cornish name in the list Of their bur-
gesses; we cannot even say " slat nominis umbra ;"
name as well as thing are both gone—the close and decayed
boroughs of Cornwall have passed into the hands of
strangers to the county. The interest of the Stanneries
are sotnetnnes confined to speculators in mines of Mexico
and Peru.. paper is seen to triumph over the influence and
interest of its tin. By the mere operation of paper and
parchment, Cornish seats have been transferred like shares
in a joint stock company, at the market price to some
great cepitalist of London. And, Sir, there is another
principle, a principle well developed in a writ of 47
Edward 111., which it is most important to attend to and
apply. It is there laid down aa a necessary qualification,
that boiough Representatives should have a suitable know-

leage of' local interests. The writ in question required
the Sheriff to return " de quolibet Burgo duos Borgenses
qui in navigio et exercitio merchandisarurn notitiam ha-
beans !radii:rem ; and the writ eonclades with an injunc-
tion that nine are to be returned who want this necessary
local or rather municipal informvion. The knowledge
waich was raqiiired in these harcesses was a plain prac-
rival knowledge for every day's use ; it was not a tiper-
fiae knowledge in political economy ; that sort of sci-
ence which has filled the country with bankrupts and
bookmakers, which produces thick octavos and thin purses,
and makes nine very rich in fine phrases, and eery po r in
pocket. This was not the kind of knowledge which
King Edward requ'red for his burgesses. They were to
be knowing men "in exercitio mercandisarnm ;" in a
good sound tradesmardike information, such is was bot-
tomed upon car:lvaco sense and co ninon experience—not
upon theory and hair- spli,ting, and the fo";ee of fanciful
philosophy. The result, then, of all these references to
Parliamentary antiquities is, that borough elect. ons ought
to he as free as those of counties—that the Men:hers re-
turned ought to have some original connection with the
places they represent. They ought to have also local
knowledge, a plain practical knowledge of the trade and
trading interests of their constituents. But to all this it
may, p- chaps, be replied, that the system is an&aw, that
the practice has passed into usage, and become an esta-
blished custom, and that it is not safe to disturb what time
has sanctioned and settled. To all this, however, the
words of Lord Bacon will apply the shortest and readiest
refutation. " Time (says he) is a great isnovatar ;"
meaning that time itself, and what is (llied the march of
events, produce such changes in the circumstances, rela-
tions, and affinities of old institutions, as to make them
different in fact and effect, though they may contiau, the
same in name; they may even become so different, as to
require adjuatments and adaptations to the vicissitudes of
time, in order to secure their original utility ; and that
great man has followed up his remark by stn h per-
tinent illustrations of it, tlist I cannot forbear citing
them in support of my own views upon this ques-
tion; neither will they he thought the worse for being in-
grafted upon some of the old adagia of oar laws. Leoes,
(says lie,) nevi s legibus non recreatco neeseunt—laws
not refreshed by, new laws wax sour—qui rnala non
permutat in basis nonparscrerat—without change of ill, a
mean cannot continue the good—to take away abuses sup-
plantenth not good orders, but establishes thern—ilforosa
marls retentio res fur/stile/11a est ague ae noritas—a con-
tentious retaining of custom is a turbulent thing, as much
so as innovation—a good husbandman is ever pruning in
his vineyard, or his field-, not unskilfully, but lightly ; he
fiudeth ever somewhat to do." And so, Sir, it is with
respect to the sohject of Parliamentary Reform ; and I
assert, upon this high authority, that to defend at a thing
that is praiseworthy, or to recommend as a thing that is
expedient, the present ownership in sects and suffrages,
and writs and summons to Parliament, because it is an-
cient, is a sort of revolutionay doctrine, it is to hold the
language and opinions of of revolutionary men ; it is to
think, and talk, and act, contrary to the principles; of our
representation, and the analogies of our law, and the spirit
of inir Constitution, and the judgment of our best writers.
The theorist who sets about the defence of venal and pro-
prietary boroughs may, perhaps, be able to cite many
ancient and modern appointments, by Ladies, as well as
Gentlemen—for, if 1 rightly recollect the words of the
Record, Dame Dorothy Packington, in the lath of
Elizabeth, sent two burgesses to Parliament from her town
of Aylesbury ; and notified under her hand and seal, that
they were her Representatives; and that whatever they did
was to be considered as her act and deed. In spite, how-
ever, of this high authority, and all other ancient prece-
dents, it will not be possible to make these crooked trans-
actions straight ; it will not be possible to correct their
deformities, or to cleanse their foulness, or to legalise their
unlawfulnese. They are, and ever must remain, foul
spats upon our drapery—dark and dirty places upon the
apparel of this House. Neither are they to be washed out
by rhetorical ablutions ; by descanting upon the beauty
which results from the intermixture of imperfections, and
the harmony which arises from discord, and the practical
advantage of departing from the letter of the law, and of
doing a little evil that good may come. All this and a
great deal more may be said and admired by the lovers of
dexterous declamation; but if ten times more were to be
said, and ten times better, it could not have the rffect of
altering tke essential character of these transactions ? for
these questions still recur. Is it agreeable to the constitu-
tion of the Coramons' House of Parliament that there
should be any thing- like settled succession in the course
and order of sitting in this House ?—that there should be
any thing like purchase in the mode of getting into it ?
and that there should be any thing like a heir-loom?--any
thing like a heritablet or a marketable, or a testamentary
property or interest attached to these benches?—a sort of
property or interest which a man may call his own if he
buys it or is born to it ? Such things as these, Sir, are
too monstrous to admit, I will not say of decoration, but
defence ; and when we find able men, politicians, or
philosophers, trying to their best tactics to save these
things from attack and overthrow, one cannot help
lamenting their waste of fine words and fine wit
—their misuse of the florid in style. and the subtle in ar-
gument, and the sarcastic in reply. I might, Sir.
proceed to point out other changes produced by time.—
Changes have taken place in respect of the qualifications
both of the electors and the elected ; and changes in the
mode of discharging these great public trusts of represents-
thin ; and changes in men's opinions of them, and the way
in which they are now considered, and spoken of, and
sought for. Instead of hieing called hardships aid burden.,
from which poor towns prayed to be relieved, they have
become lucrative deputations, beneficiary appointments,
from which poor towns contrive to derive a profit. Instead
of the Sheriff being obliged to secure the appearance of his
citizen or burgess by manucaptor, and even by the sei-
zurej of their goods and chattels, be is sure ;to find
plenty of candidates for a vacant seat, and no lack of cost
or contrivance to obtain it. Instead of receiving wages—
(Knights, 4s.,:Citizens and Burgesses, 2s. a day)—many
Honourable Gentlemen would be glad to hold their seas
at no higher cost than the daily payment of ten times the
higher sum. But, though time has changed the face of
all things, both in and out of Parliament ;—though it has
changed all the great interests of the country, and all the
relations of public and Parliamentary life ; and the whole
moral, as well as political economy of the nation—it has
produced no change in the real objects and purposes of
Parliamentary Representation. It has not, in any way,
affected the reasons which made the Common» of England
demand and obtain an adequate appearance by proxy in
the great Council of the nation. It has not weakened nor
obscured any one of the plain and simple propositions
c.intained is the writs of summons to the Sheriffs of the
realm. What was good law and good policy upon the
issue of the first writ for knights, citizens, and bur-
gesses, 56$ years ago, continues to be so still ; and
there is not a better way of arriving at the Reform which
is so much desired, than by reverting* to ancient principles,
to the manifest designs of our forefathers, to the records of
their prudence, as well as of their prowess; and I believe
that surei, safer, and reader guidance will be found in the
light of their wisdom and the brightness of their example,
than in the dreams of the enthusiasts, or in the doctrines
of the philosophy of the present day; and I am convinced
that it will he found that the best sort of Reform will be
the restoration of what time hay impaired, the cleansing
of what corruption has polluted, the rectifying of what
craft has twisted aside from its proper use and real de-
sign.—(Hear, hear.)—Nothing, Sir, it appears to me,
now remains but that 1 should simply, and as shortly as I
may be able, state the outlines of the Bill which I hold in
my hand, and which in its principal provisions I have en-
deavoured to construct upon ancient principles—princi-
ples which have appeared to me best fitted for amending
and repairing the Constitution of this liouse—" Sum ex
its qui mirer antiquos." Now, then, Sir, I propose by
this Bill, which is to restore to the Commont of England
their rightful share in the Legislature, to place upon re-
cord, by way of recitals, the fundamental principles of
representation, as I find them in the books, when both the
theory and the practice were in the state of their greatest
purity ; and the clear meaning of this Bill may never
he misunderstood. I find from the time of Henry 111.
and throughout the subsequent reign; of the three
first Edwards (a period at which Sir Matthew Hale,
and other text writers declare the law of England
to have reached the highest degree of perfection),
that there can be no doubt that the citizens and
burgesses returned to Parliament; by virtue of the
King's writ to the Sheriffs of the different counties, were
elected and chosen by the inhabitent-householthrt of the
large and populous towns, paying scot and lot; and so it
was declared by a Committee of the House of Comm.ons,
of which Lord Coke (the great oracle of the Law of Eng-
land) and the learned Mr. Selden, were both Members, for
during tine reigns above alluded to, and down to that of
Edward IV., tine practice of granting Royal charters had
not been introduced—the first being in the 17th year of
that reign, by which charter the right of sending one hur-
gees to Parliament was granted to [the borough of Wen-
lock. I propose, then, by the first enactment of this Bill,
that a Committtee of twenty-one Members of this House
(to be chosen by ballot) shall be appointed, with ten days
e
utter tl
ftliisAct,and, i
hereafter, within the
first ten days after the commencement of each Session,
with full power to ascertain the exact state of every city,
borough, and port,
o
ort, in the united Kingdom. Secondly.—
Mat as soon AS the said Committee ehali have aserr-

hined the fact that any city, borough, or pert, n
into decay, and ceased to be such populous and x.rcrilthy
place as was originally intended tr- Kctid a 'rafenilier or
Members to serve in Parliament, or that the
granted to any city or borough ought to he coneideved ens
forfeited, by mis-nee or a'n-n'or, that it shall be tl.e
duty of the Committee to report each facts to the Seen'
tare of State for the Herne Department; and that such
report shall he deemed and taken to be that which, durin
the purity of the representation, 'Taub! have taken place,
end actually did take pl.tce in many instanees—nameiy,
the petition of such city or borough to Le rectired of the
harden of sending :Member. to Parliament. Thirdly :
That, anon receiving mach Report, it shall be the duty of
the Secretary et State to announce, in the Gazette, that
such city or borough has ceased to send Members to Par-
liarrenr, or that the franchise thereof has been forfeitf.:
for mis-u.e. F,:tarthly: The Committee are directed t,

begin their investigation and reports with tile Burgage
Tenure Boroughs, beeruse these are known is their

pre,ent I>tate to afford a direct proprietary interest,—
Fifdily. That as soon as such announcement hhall he
male in the Gazette, the Committer ehall select such po.
pulons unrepresented, or inadequately represented towns or
places, with the hundreds, districts, or parishes, surround-
ing the came, as the Committee shall think proper, in ord r
to fill tip the seats rendered vacant as above ; and it is
provided that the right of voting in cassia towns or places
so selected, shall be according to the oldest qualifiratioos
known to the law, and the practice of the country, namely,
in a;1 the inhabitant householders paying soot and lot, or, in
other words, assessed to any tax, parochial or Parliamen-
tary. And the Committee are direcksi to report such en—
lection to the Sscretety of State, who is to eanse the same
to he published in the Gazette, and to send copies thereer
to the Lord Chanceller the Speaker of the Iltiose f
Commons, and the returning dicers of such towns anti
places ; and such report is to he deemed, and taken to
he, the enfranchisement of anch towns or places to send
Members to Parliament. Sixthly—Ai the object of tl •
Bill is to restore the representation to its ancient purity, I
propose, among other excellent old laws, now either re-
pealed or become obsolete, to restore the principle and prac-
tice of paying Members the wages of attendance—(Late, lc-
ter)—according to the value of money at the present d.y,
which I consider should be 21. a day for citizens and bur-
gessea, and 44. for Knights or Members for counties.—
(Loud cud sot:tinned langhtcr.)—No part of our ;elm.,
sentative sys;.,:m is better established, and it remains the
law at this day. It this principle had he-n strictly ad-
hered to, as it ought to have been, few of *1 e abuses that
we now have to complain of rooke have existed; for, as
fast as towns fell into decay, they would have been re-
lieved of the burden of sending Members to Parliamen'i,
aid other larger and more wealthy sad populous towns
W .ulti have been enfranchised. Seventkly—l propose,
after all populous town. and phases shall he represented,
that the vacant seats which may remein should be fulled
first by a representation of theme cottons is Scotland nn''
subject to alternate representation only, and then by amid
ing one or two Members to Finch other counties in the
United Kingdom as the Committee piny think stand most
in need of such addition; and it is presided that, before
the Committee shall add to the County Representation,
they are to add to the electors of all those cities and bo-
roughs (now open, and not justifying a report upon
the grounds stated in this Bill), by adding thereto such
hundreds and parishes round the sante as the Commit-
tee may think proper, in order that the electors so au,•
mented may he folly able to bear the burden of prying
the wages of attendance. Eighthly : In order to insure t.,
any householder assessed to any tax the right of voting-, I
propose to enact that any each person, who may not he in-
cluded in any of the places to be enfranchised, may rote st
the enfranchised town or place nearest to his residence,
provided he agrees to be assessed for payment of the wag,s,
&c. With respect to Scotland, I feel that, after the peti-
tions for reform front Edinburgh, and almost every bo-
rough in Seoland, now before the House, it would his
most unjust towards the people of that part of the United
Kingdom, and also most unwise and impolitic, to leave the
representation in Scotland i• the state is which it is, one,
therefore, I mean by the foregoing etuctmente, that its
representation shall be reformed and placed upon the same
fts :dug as that of England. Ninthly : Having gone through
the enactment. as applicable exclusively to cities, boroughs,
*own., and ports, in the United Kingdom, I propose, as
was proposed by Mr. Pitt, in respect of tennties, that the
right of voting shall be extended to copyholders and cer-
tain leaseholders, not only because the greatest anthoritiee
in the law of England, with Lord Coke at their head,
have laid it down that oopyliolders have an estate equal
to freeholders, but because these oopyhold lands and bene-
ficial leaseholds, as they exist at this day, were tenures
utterly unknown when the right of voting was li-
mited to freeholds ; and, above all, because their copyhold
and leasehold lands bear the same proportion of tuxes, pa-
rochial and Parliamentary, as is borne by fieehelds. Free.
holds, also that happen to be situated in any town that is
a county by itself ought not for that reason to he taxed and
unrepresented. I therefore propose that the proprietors
of such property shall be entitled to vote for the county at
large. Then, again, with respect to S:a.tland ;--it is a
fact well known to the gentlemen from that part of the
kingdom, that voters for counties are manufactured by a
sort of trick ; that is, by separating what is called the se.
periority from the:property; and thus voters have been
created that have not a foot of property in the county. Is
this representation of the landed interest? I propose,
therefore, to put an end to all earls fictitious means of
creating votes; and as a large mass of landed property is
now held by what is called fen-rights, that is, beneficial
leases for lives, or long terms rf years, and subject to its
full share of taxation, I pi-slew that this property, like
the copyholds in England, shall be represented. Tenthly,
I propose that all persons now in possession of a right
of voting for counties in Scotland, arising merely
from superiority without property, shall be entitled
to vote for the city or borough that shall be nearest
to their places of residence, provided they agree to be
asseaess for the wages of their representatives. By the
eleventh enactment of this Bill, I propose to enact that no
person, now having the right to vote fur any city or
borough, shall again exercise such right unless lie be re-
sident within time same ; but that all such non-residents
shall be entitled to vote for the city or borough nearest to
his place of residence, it being the object of theme enact-
ments that no person shall be disfranchised. As I consi-
der it necessary that regulations should be adopted to pre-
vent the enormous expense that often takes place at elec-
tions, I propose, by the twelfth ointment, that it shall
he the duty of the Committee to make such regulations ae
they think proper for this pa rpm?.; and also to render the
act of voting as little inconvenient as poseiitle to the elec-
tors. I find our system of Representation greatly aFeriel
for the n-oree by some modern Acts of Parliament; these
I propose, by the thirteenth enactment of this Bill, to re-
peal. In the first place, it is notorious that the only rea-
sons given fur the passing the Septennial Bill have long
since ceased to exist. Therefore I propose to repeal that
Bill—namely, the 7th of Geo. L In the next place, I
do not find, from the time of Henry 111. down to the
ninth year of the reign of Qneen Anne, that there was
any law that made it necessary for citizens and bur-
gesses to be possessed of landed estate. of the annual
value
to o
sit
in this
t3hineo/. or
Ifouesen other
;y
while
m e slufin,din othredt,erfrtoomLes qeal
theifie- l
roost
ancient times--namely, by theist of Henry V. cep. I.
it was wisely enacted, " That such citizens and burgesses
of cities and boroughs he chosen men, resident, dwelling,
and free, in the same cities and boroughs, and no other in
any wise." I therefore propose to repeal this modern Act
of Queen Anne, as it relates to the qualification of citizens
and burgesses to sit in Parliament. By the fourteenth
enactment of this Bill, I propose to repeal a still more mo-
dern, and a still more monstrous violation of our old law—
namely, the 14th of Gen. 111. a. 18,—which was the Irst
Act that was made to repeal the wise enactments of the
let of Henry V., requiring that the elected should be
chosen from among the resident inhabitants of each place.
But, as some boroughs have the right by charter to choose
from among themselves, or others, I propose that the
Cum-
tnittee, by their Report, shall confirm such right either to
these boroughs, or to such towns as they may select in
their place ; and I propose to enact, that any inhabitant
of any
as to being free of that
anytownbeingelectcdaphie, feeaaltlaa6lrurow
thel;t of Henry
of aery-
ing in Parliament. I Aid by the Act of the 12th and
13th of William 111., " for the better menriag the rights
and liberties of the people," after solemnly declaring
that " the laws of England are the birthright of the
people thereof," it is enacted, " that no person who has an
office or place of profit under the Kirg er receives a pen-
sion from the Crown, thall be capable of serving as a
Islember of the House of Commons. Now, I hold thesis
wise laws of our ancestors to be the land marks of the Con-
stitution ; and, therefore, I propose that the fith of Queen
Anne, c. 7, which, by allowing plseemen to vacate their
seats and be re-elected, has entirely defeated the wise pro-
visions of the 12th and 13th William 111., be repealed,
and to declare that the Act of King William was intended
to apply to all offices and places of profit under the King,
that then existed, or should thereafter exist. Lastly, Sir,
I consider it expedient to repeal not only such Acts as have
been passed for upholding what Bishop Burnet and the
great Lord Chatham called " the rotten parts of the Con-
stitution," but also such as touch the eligibility of Mein-
hers to serve in Parliament, if the same shall have been
made in a particular ease, and from personal motives to-
wards any individual ; and particularly when the rights

1&

I- osstoi;.'
nnilftriter etas of a large anal' toed body of men have been
thereby improperly affected. Now, I consider the Act
that was. passed against Mr. Horne Tooke, in ISO I , in
this light, and as the late Lord Thurlow, whose authority,
I presume, may be quoted in this House, pronounced this
Act to be uncalled for, unjust, levelled at a single indivi-
dual, and infamous, from having an ex post facto opera-
tion against Mr. Tooke, and all who had then takets Holy
Orders—several of whom had actually sat in this House;
and as Mr. Tooke himself did, in refetence to this Act,
leave a most severe satire behind him upon this House
(which, I think, ought to be wiped away, (by thankitia;
his old Friend, the then Prime Minister, for his geett lenity
and kindness in only proposing such a Bill. ((which Mr.
Tooke accepted as the highest complintent that could he
paid to the end of his political life), because, if the Minis-
ter had proposed a Bill to have bad Mr. Tooke taken out
of this House, and hetie-ed in the lobby, the same majority
woold have been equally ready and willing to have passed
it. Therefore, for the honour of Parliament, as well as
in grotitutle to the memory of this learned, sincere, atiel
d 'tintless reformer, in whose steps I am now presunsing t o
tread, I propose, by the 15th enactment of this Bil,
that this Act shall be taken off the record of the Statute
Book, and cancelled, or otherwise defaced, to the end
that no such Act :shall be visible in after ages, and that
it shall be wholly repealed. There is still oat Other
principal enactment more, and that arises froth the pre-
avnt and alarming state of the totattt*-. I believe this
measure to be absolutely neeessary to our safety ; and I
would wish to see the-provisions of this Act executed in
the most deliltera`e and considerate manner; but I cannW
shut my eyes to the imminent peril of our siteatl_on, and
to the fact that 11 might become of the !Ist importance
to the cottotry to have the becest of the provisions of
this Act before it could be possible for the nation to
Ituaaive it from the Reform Committee. I consider it,
teerefore, proper to have an enactment to the following
effect :—" That if this Parliament shall be dissolved be
fore the Reform Committee shall have reported tvpon the
tOities :aid Boroughs as it is required to do, so that the
co'entry shall not. b.r in pessession of the benefits conte(n-
plated by this Act, then and in that ease no writ for the
election of Members to serve in Parliament shall be sent to
those places that have so Ellen into decay as to be unable
to bear the burden of paying the wages of attendance ac-
cording to the provisions .of this Act, and where there is
notoriously a, direct proprietary interest or domination in
returrdnA- the Members of this House, and stteh places shall
se eutttneratell in the Bill; and to enact that writs in
place thereof shall be sent to the Sheriff's of such counties
for the returns or citizens and burgesses of such large,
populous, and unrepresented towns, as his Majecty, with
the advice of his Privy Council, shall think proper ;
owl that the returns of Members to serve in Podia-
. ment from all such towns, as well es from all other
cities end boroughs to which the King's Writ is
serif, shall be made by the votes of a majority of
the inhabitant householders, assessed to any tax, pa-
rochial or Parliamentary, and consenting to be
assesseei to the wages of attendance ; and that all the pro-
visions of this Act shall be in full force tool virtue, the
saine as it the Reform Committee had made the reports
which are hereby directed to be mule." Then there are
enactments to secure the regular attendance of the Com-
mittee, to exclude front the operation of the Bill the uni-
versities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin, and that
each Member of the Committee shall take the oath I will
now read. "I do solemnly promise and swear that, lay-
- rug aside all private interest or motives, I will, to the best
of my judgment, faithfully execute all the provisions of
the Act under which I have been appointed a Member of
the Reform Commi tae, according to the plain and obvious
meaning of the said Act, as set forth in the preamble and
enactments of the same, and if it skill appear to me that
any improvement can be made in the said Act for the
better fulfilling the clear intentions of the Legislature
as therein expressed—l trill not fail to propose
that such improvement shall be reported to the
House of Commons, or to vote for it if proposed by
others ; and that in a matter of such importance as
restoriug to the House of Commons the perfect con-
fidence of the nation, and securing for ever the rights and
liberties of the people, I will consider it my duty to be re-
gular and punctual in my attendance on the said Commit-
tee, sickness or any other unavoidable cause alone prevent-
ing such at ten dance." Finally, Sir, as respects the question
of compenaation, I do not propose any compensation 'to the
proprietors of boroughs, because I maintain that it never
was intended by the law that it should he possible for any
body to qualify any thing like a proprietary interest in the
representation of the people, and that all such interests are
obtain( d either by means positively and strictly forbidden
by the law, or in consequence of a manifest perversion of
its spirit and real meaning. On this point it was well ob-
served by the late Hon. Member for Durham, in 1521,
that " it would not be depriving them of any thing they
ought to have, it would be depriving them only of the corrupt
an I unconstitutional practicability of selling seats in Par-
liament, or bartering them for places, pensions, sinecures,
and other appointments in the gilt of the Minister." I will
not, therefore, at the present day. be the proposer of any
compensation to the traffickers of seats in Parliament. 1
ant aware, Sir, that Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Wyvill, and many
honest reformers of that day, (lid adopt the principle of com-
pensation ; and I have heard that when it teas proposed to
Mr. Pitt, on the part of certain proprietors of boroughs, to
accept the honours of the Peerage in full compensation, be
spurned at the idea; and that he returned precisely the same
answer which 1 have heard the present Minister returned,
when a Dukedom and other stipendiary compensation were
required for service in Parliament—" The Dukedom is out '
of the question ; but the other terms, of place and stipend,
shall be complied with whenever the vacancy happens."
Now, Mr. Pitt has been reproached, and I think very justly,
for making so many of these proprietors of boroughs Peera
of Parliament, and allowing them to keep their horougha
into the bargain. An actor in this scene has recorded his
opinion, in explaining the philosophy of the propo-
sition " along." " Thanks, to Pitt, it is along of him
that we do not only keep our boroughs, but get Peerages
into the bargain." "Curses on Pitt, it is along of him
that the free Constiution of this country is destroyed."
" I suppose that Lord Lonsdale, Lord Eliott, and the father
of Lady Bath, would not mean to impute any fault to the
Minister in the former of these sentences, though the
people of England de certainly impute an inexpiable crime
and treachery to him in the latter." Not only, tken, have
the greater part of these proprietors been thus already
compensated in advance, but among whom have the mil-
lions of debt, under which this nation is now sinking, been
distlibuted, for the moat parts but among those proprie-
tors, their relations, friends, dependents, and tools.—
Still, though I will not be the proposer of compensation,
if there were any danger of this Bill being lost for want
of giving compensation, in the case of certain burgage
tenure boroughs where no Peerage had been obtained, I
would think it better, much as I disapprove of the prin-
ciple, to give compensation than to allow this measure to
be delayed fur a single year; because I know that millions
and millions would thereby be saved to the country ; and
because I would hey off an unjust claim, rather than be
subject to the delay and danger of a long and expensive
litigation. Bat, Sir, when I find, from a petition presented
to this House in 1793, that it was offered to be proved at
our bar that a majority of the House of Commons are re-
turned by less than two hundred individuals, how can the
nation afford any thing like compensation for the com-
mand of a majority of the House of Commons ? The thing
is beyond all price; it must he granted as a matter of grace
from within these 'walls, or it will come, as the great Lord
Chatham predicted (and, in truth, it seems advancing with
rapid strides) with a vengeance from without. Now, Sir, I
will not trespass much longer upon the attention of the
House; but before I conclude, I am desirous of noticing two
arguments which have been urged against Reform, both of
which, I think it not improbable, may be used against me
this evening. lam aware, Sir, that it has been asked in this
House by a late aplendid orator, and with somewhat of
triumph, by reason of the silence that followed the question,
" If it be meant to carry back the Constitution to former
times, name your period." The question, I must confess,
always appeared to me sophistical. I am for renovating the
Constitution in the important particul as I have referred
to. lam for repairing the breaches which time has made
in its walls, and for conducting these repairs and restora-
tions upon ancient principles; and am I to be told that
my plan is absurd, or nay proposal unreasonable, because
cannot mention the Anno Domini when those principles
were all found co-existing and cu-operating at the same
time? Those principles were devolved by degrees, and
from time to time; and I confess I see no abeurdity in say-
ing that some of these ancient principles of the Constitu-
tion are to be sought for in Magna Charta ; sonic in the
Act "De tallugio non concedendo ;" some in the Statutes
for regulating the frequent holding of Parliament ; some
in the Statutes for fining Sheriffs for oral-practices ; some
in the Statutes for fixing the qualification of burgesses;
some in those for securing frank and fair elections; and
some in the Petition and Bill of Rights. All these princi-
ples I call ancient principles, and a return to them would be
a return to ancient principles, although those principles do ,
not bear the date of the same year. To tell me that I shall
not have the benefit of this range of inquiry, hut that I
must confine myself and my observations to a particular
year, is to play the Dictator in argument, and to impose
grievous conditions indeed upon the inquirer after truth.
I wish to restore the Constitution to its proper form and
energies, and to do it upon ancient principles—not the
principles of this or that particular year of our Parliasuen-

tar), history, hut as they may be found diffusively—some
in Magna Charta, some in this, some in that wait of sum-
mons; some in this, some ha that Act of Parliament; but.
still forming a largo aggregate 'of good constitutional autho-
rities for at:Trending and repairing the constitution of this
Ilonse. the other argument which has been used again-t
ttuis measure, and to which I will very britt4y advert,
is this ; and, strange to say, it which wears the
mantle of Whig aotifertty. It has been insisted that
" No reform r IneVer be peaceably carried otherwise than
icy a friendly Administration ; and that all plans which
Will not bear the test of this condition are either delusions
yr instruments of revolution " Now, Sir, as I have before
said, I really am disposed to hope that the present men in
power may be inclined to look with no unfriendly eyt upon
such a measure. It must be eaJident to tl em that if an
Administration will not peaceably concur in plans of re-
form, and the system of abuse shall reach its acme, a
convulsion must occur. Disorganization cannot be avoided
if they shall continue pertinaciously hostile to political
amelioration, and shall refuse to yield to the public ur-
gency. Be these matters, how...‘vtr, they may, I can
safely affirm that nothing is farther from my intention
than to render tt-,:y Measure obnoxious to the charge of
being :e ihstruntent of delusion, whatever other chat aster
f° May attract. And now, Sir, as I strongly feel this
public urgency, and as I am convinced that no cne Will be
found at this time of day hardy enoegh to contend that
the necessity of refute!! in either the mere vapour of a dream
or the shador., of a 'shade, or empty whim and fanciful no-
thing; t do most confidently anticipate the proximate ne-
tomplishment of this great, this just, this wise, this con-
stitutional measure. Now, Sir, I am aware that by
adopting the course pursued by the Honourable Member
for Durham, in 1821, by simply moving that this House
will resolve itself into a Committee upon the State of the
Representation, and then in that Committee proposing re-
solutions embodying the principle of my Bi I, I might pos-
sibly catch many votes, as there must doubtless be mane
Hon. Members favourable to some extent of reform, who
will be unwilling to go the length I propose to carry the
House. But, Sir, I should at this time of day deem such
a manoeuvre unworthy of the grand object I propose fur
going straight forward at once to a clear and definite ob-
ject. lam strongly upheld by precedent upon the main
principle of my Bill—namely, the extension of the right
of voting to all taxed householders ; and the other provi-
sions and repeals contained in it appear to me so just and
becoming, that no argum,nts will avail or warp my in-
tentions, or induce me to cut down my Bill, to suit the
views or interests of any party. I now move for leave to

. .
bring in a Bill to restore the Constitutional Influence of
the Commons in the Parliament of England.
On the motion being seconded, and put from the chair,
Mr. PENDARVIS bore testimony to the necessity of
reform, in evidence of which he stated that the county
of Cornwall was by no means benefited by the number that
it returned to serve in Parliament. Until the Noble
Mover had communicated them to the House, he had not
been aware of the provisions of the Bill, nor was he pre-
pared to go all the lengths of that measure. The Hon.
Gentleman concluded with expressing his appro!,ation of
the resolutions proposed in 1809 by the Member for West-
minster, which would have given a right of voting to all
who were in a condition to pay taxes.
Mr. BENETT professed his admiration of the Noble
Marquis's speech generally, although be could not offer
him his uncondiional support. Corruption had in these
later times advanced materially, and it was now but too
well known that the present Parliament did not enjoy the
confidence of the people. The existing Government was
an honest and well meaning Government, he acknow-
ledged, but no honest Government could be said to derive
strength from the support of a Parliament which was not
trusted. With respect to the conduct of the Noble Mar-
quis, be thought he de,erved the highest credit for in-
tegrity and disinterestedness. It was not probable that he
should long sit a Member in that House, and in removing
elsewhere, the success of his measure would operate to
his prejudice, and he there advocated a reform which
must hereafter tend to the curtailment of his own power.
Such a reform, as far as he could judge, was at no period
more necessary than now.

Sir R. WILSON had much doubted the Noble Mar-
quis's sincerity last Session, when he first introduced a
motion upon the subject before them, as it did not appear
to him that he had really put on the armour of a reformer.
Ile thought that be had ostensibly avowed himselfa cham-
pion of reform for the purpose of attaining better vantage-
ground to attack Ministers for having carried another
measure which he conscientiously opposed. He had, how-
ever, no longer any doubt of his perfect sincerity, and felt
confident that if it were in his power to-morrow he would
execute all that he had proposed. In short, he believed in
his own reformation. The principle he should always
support, as he was sent thither by his constituents for that
purpose. He was sorry not to see the Attorney-General
in his place, as be wished to have made allusion to the law
of libel, which the Right Hon. Gentleman had been
pledged, tinder the Administration of Mr. Canning, to re-
form. This was assuredly one of those laws which ought to
have been repealed, inflicting, as it did, transportation on
second conviction. If reform had passed we should not then
have heard of nr.n being dispossessed of their properties
by a borough proprietor, because they had presumed to
exercise their rights as freemen.—(Hear.)—We should
not then have heard of British citizens being treated on the
footing of goods and chattels.—(Hear.)—They were now
daily disputing as to whether the present distress was to
he considered partial or general, but that question would
have soon been set rest if every member were personally
acquainted with the circumstances of his constituents, and
able to declare them. He would advocate and support a
fair and free representation, and he was not authorised
by his conetitutents to go farther. It occurred to him
that the measure proposed was partially objectionable, as
it gave somewhat too despotic a power to the Committee,
who were permitted to denote, ad libitum, what boroughs
were fit for representation, and what not so. For his
part, he was most agreeably surprised at the suggestion
that Members should have wages, and certainly could not
ing himself to resist what was so pleasantly recom-
mended.—(Laughter.)—Ou the whole he was favourable
to the introduction of the Bill, and hoped that it would
meet witle a successful recetpion.
Lord NUGENT expressed his willingness to vote with
the Noble Marquis, as the defects in the representation
were so numerous that he had long acknowledged the ge-
neral necessity for reform.

Mr. lIOI3IIOUSE voted for any thing like reform, and
for one plain reason—that he conceived the present system
the worst possible. Every day convinced him of the truth
of his conviction,—that with all the forms of freedom, our
system had almost all the disadvantages of the most corrupt
principle of representation in existence. They (the Mem-
bers of the House) sat there,—not by the consent of the
people, but with their dissent,—not by the will of the
people, but against their will,—and not to do the people's
business but their own. (Hear.) He could not conceive how
any person having his (Mr. Hobhouse's) notions of reform,
could differ from the Noble Marquis. As to the motion
being unintelligible, he (Mr. Hobhouse) understOod it to
be a measure to reform the House ; and that was enough
for hill-I.—(llean )—With respect to the details, he left
that for after consideration. In fixing attention upon par-
ticular cases, the House seemed desirous ro make the people
believe that they knew nothing of general corruption ; they
fastened their fangs upon some poor, needy, rotten bo-
rough ; but the evil was in themselves—" monumentuin
circumspice"—( Hear.) It was, as a Noble Lord behind him
had said, a farce and del lion. An Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, who, he hoped would prove a powerful acces-
sion to the cause of reform (Mr. O'Connell) had said that
" we had caught the wolf, and let us, please God, kill
him." But the wolf wan a mangy wolf not worth killing.
The Motion of the Noble Lord was indeed a sweeping
one; but looking the other day amongst some old papers,
he (Mr. Hobhouse) found another scheme which he hoped
the House would allow him to read ; he hoped the Noble
Lord would not take it as a pleasantry upon his scheme.
It was projected by a Member of one of Charles L's Par-
liaments. It was entitled " A Scheme for the better Go-
vernment of the Nation." The writer recommends the
total abolition of the House of Peers, as a body which was
very expensive, inconvenient, and unnecessary. With re-
gard to the House of Commons, he proposes, that in order
to obviate the confusion of frequent elections, and the per-
jury and bribery at the same, the Protector should have
the nomination of all tie Members to the number of
500, and that the representatives of the whole island of
Great Britain should he such persons only as the Minister
thought proper, and the Members were to pay down, im-
mediately on their nomination, 1,0001. to the Treasury,
and were each to receive 3501. a year, to be paid by the
Protector; no Member to be permited to vote against the
Protector for the time being, on penalty of forfeiting 5/.
for the first offence, and 10/, for the second.—(A laugh. )--
The lion. Member then proceeded to say that, without at-
tending to individual cases, some general plan of reform
should be adopted.
Mr. TWISS observed, that so much had been said against
the motion of the Noble Lord, from the other side of the
House, that nothing need be said by thoso who were neces-
sarily opposed to such a motion. The arguments in favour
of it were all assertions that in the opinion of
the people they were not represented in that House. If
assertions on one aide availed, so should assertions on the
other; and he (Mr. Twiss) would affirm, that the weight
of opinion in that House would go against the Noble Lord.
His Hon. Friend (Mr. Hobhouse) admitted that if an al •

teration were to take place, the result would he still the
same—the same set of persons wok!lil be retiirned.
remembered an anecdote of tile late Mr. Sheridan, in his
illness, when a foOtihan down a plite-warmer, with
a sad crash ; th'b foottrian said there was nothing broken,
when Mr. Sherid in exclaimed, " What, have you made
ill that noise for nothing ?" Se) he would say to
his Honouralle Friend, " What! all this noise for
nothing ?" He begged to remind the House that
t' e onus lay on the reformeni, not on them (the Mi-
nisters) ; butt in the present irrtanet, all who se-
conded the Noble Lord) and thought reform nece.sary,
thought his measure objectionable—except, indeed, his
lion; Friend, the Member for Westminster, who said that
the present system was so hopeless and so in'olerahly bad,
that no change, however unintelligible, could be for the
worse.—(Hear.) No person, however, who did not go
the whole length of that Hots. MetnbiA-, could undertake
to support a Measure which was not understood, or, if
understood, was not approved. He was unacquainted
with the public character of the Noble Lord, nor, if he
knew it, could he suppose that his present scheme was
designed to east a ridicule upon the theory of reform ; but
there never was a scheme more tale:late(' to throw a ridi-
cule upon ParliamentaYy reform than the scheme of the
Noble Loi d, except it was the scheme which the Hon.
Member for Westminster had ironically quoted.—(lfear.)
Sir F. BURDETT observed, that the Hon. Member
who had just down, who had attempted to throw a ridi-
cule upon the motion of the Noble Lord, had so utterly
mistaken the purport of the paper real by his Hon. Col-
league, that he seemed to think the paper an irony on the
present state of the House. The Hon. Gentleman had
mistaken, and perverted, and misunderstood the argument

of his Hon. Colleague, who had admitted, as he (Sir F.
Burdett.) admitted, that the House was composed of men
of as enlightened understandings and as addicted to the
English principle of freedom, as could be found collected
together in any part of the world,—a compliment which
he was willing to pay them. But his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Hobhouse) had contended that they were returned to the
House under an influence which rendered them incapable
of exerting the noble faculties of their minds, and injurious
to the country they belonged to. His Hon. Friend con-
tended that, notwithstanding the admitted ability of these
Members, they must, under existing circumstances, be
thus influenced ; hut that under different circumstances the
result would he not the same, but the very reverse—
(Hear, hear)—and that there would then be no conflict
on their part with the public interest. If a person was
returned against the law of England, against the Consti-
tution of England, and against those most sacred privileges
which were founded upon the acknowledged sovereignty
of the people of England, where was the security of the
people? It was a high breach of the Constitution and
of the privileges of the Commons of England, that a
Peer should interfere in the election of a Member of
that House. That was the principle which stood re-
corded in that House; and it was owing to a pe-
tition lying on their table, from a society of patriots
calling themselves the Friends of the People, and of which
society Mr. Fox and Mr. Grey were members, which
petition a Right Hon. Gent., whose loss he deeply la-
mented (Mr. Tierney,) was said to have drawn up on
the part of the friends of the people,—that paper, in
1793, declared that 150 Members of that HOWLa were re- I

turned, not only by the interference, but on the nomina-
nation of a very small number of Peers. The petition
offered to prove this fact at the bar of the House. The
House was much the same in these days as at that time.—
(A deeply regretted that that Right Hon.
Gent. (lid not now live to vote on this question, as he
always did vote, and always stood forward with great
ability, in defence of those fundamental rights cf the
people of England which he (Sir F. Burdett) now ad-
vocated. With respect to the motion before the House,
he was bound to say that be could not camprehend at
once all its details ; but be understood it to be a great
measure of reform, which was supported by very con-
siderable ability, and that its object was to endeavour to
restore to the people of England a share of the Constitu-
tion of the country, to which they had as great a right as
a Peer had to his title, or the King to his seat upon the
Throne. He regretted to see that the democratic branch
of the constitution did not retain its proper share of
power, and every endeavour to restore the liberty of
the people he would do all in his power to advance.
The very denial of the House to disfranchise East
Retfsrd—was a refusal to adopt the plan of Lord Chat-
ham, to infuse new blood into our crazy Constitution,
. . . .

to enable it to hear its infirmities. When it was con-
sidered that a great portion of the talent and understanding
of the country was not permitted to find a vent for its opi-
nions in that House,—when great abilities, and every thing
enlightened in the empire, was excluded by the present
system of things,—and when the House absolutely threw
away an opportunity to gain some credit with the people,
by the disfranchisement of what was called, in that House,
a corrupt borough, but which he (Sir F. Burdett) did not
' consider more corrupt than many others, and refused to
admit representatives from the great town of Birmingham,
and as a plaster to the sore, proposed to throw open the
votes to tbe hundred! of Bassetlaw, the people might natu-
rally feel irritated at the House for refusing to concede to
their moderate, perhaps too moderate, wishes. He trusted
that this motion would unite the whole country with the
people of Birmingham in demanding that fair and full
reform which the people of England were entitled to, and
a redress of that worst of grievances, a corrupt representa-
tion of the people.—(Hear.)—He trusted that the Noble
Lord would persevere in his schemes of reform, and that
he (Sir F. Burdett), after thirty-five years of unremitted
efforts, might the the object accomplished. " Notwith-
standing the length of my career in this undertaking," said
the Hon. Baronet, " let the standard of reform be again
raised, and I am as ardent as ever I was, prepared to enlist
under its banners, be they reared by whom they may." Tin.
only struggle really worth making, was for reform in
Parliament. The only distinction in that House should be
those Members who were in favour of reform and those
who were not,—those for the people of England and those
against theta—(lleac, bear)—this was the only true dis-
tinction, and every man would know where to take his
place. After the termination of that calamitous reign, the
reign of George 111., he called it calamitous in respect to
its foreign policy, its encroachments upon the liberties of
the people, and the burdens of tavation cast upon the coun-
try, which, in spite of the virtues of the man, made that a
most calamitous reign for the country, look at our situa-
tion now. " Look," said the Hon. Baronet, " at myself,
I have gone through the whole process under the present
system of representation, and a most ruinous one it has
been. Early in life, I came into this House in order to
defend the constitution of England. I purchased my seat
of a borough-monger.—(A laugh. ).---I yurchased it of the
Duke of Newcastle.—(A laugh. )—He was no patron of
mine ; he took my money, and by purchase I obtained a
right to speak in the most public place in England. With
my views, and with my love of the liberty of my county, I
did not grudge the sacrifice I made for that commanding
consideration. If I had abused the right I thus purchased
anti passed through corruption to the honours of the peer-
age, I should not enjoy the satisfaction I ❑ow feel. But I
feel it to he a greater honour to be one of the people of
England, in whose hearts the love of liberty can never he
deracinated, than to enjoy the highest title which it is in
the power of the roost profligate Minister to bestow."--
(Hear.)—The Hon. Baronet proceeded to say, that having
thus gone through the whole sy stem of corruption, he could
not help having a fellow-feeling for the electors of East
Retforti, who had had the good sense at least to sell them-
selves, not others. Having been detected, it was very well
for the Honse to pumish the offence; but who can say " I
am free?" He then felt a great compunction towards the
electors of East Retferd ; for their instance, so far from
being a mishief, was really a mitigation of the system.—
(Hear.)—It seemed as if the House was acting on the
principles of ancient Sparta, where theft was no offence,
but the detection was punished. It was the mal-adroit-
ness, not the commission of the act, that was prohibited—
not the crime, but the want of address in committing it.
The House was in the same predicament. The Members
for rotten boroughs were nominated by Peers, and of
course they could not oppose the opinions of their patrons.
A man of honour could not sit in the House and vote
against the opinion of the Peer who nominated! him. In
such a way as this the people were excluded from the
House of their representatives, though they gave them
power. True it was that some Gentlemen said, " we re-
present the people of England at large." This was a fal-
lacy which reconciled many consciences. Such was the
mode in which elections were managed, that no person
could stand for a county without being ruined, or at least
run into difficulties. He (Sir F. Burdett) had gone
through all this ; he had stood for a county, though he
would not have given twopence for the representation of
that county, his object having been to expose the abomin-
able system and the oppressive tyranny of solitary con-
finement in England. To expose those abnses it was, that
he stood upon the hustings at Brentford, though he really
would not have given twopence for the representation of
the county. He could have got returned for East Retford
at a much cheaper rate, and have been a ►note independent
man. He had also gone through the remedial operation,
as it was called, of the Grenville act; so that, as he had
sounded all the shoals and shallows of the system, it was
not wonderful he should be a great advocate for au altera-
tion• The plain question was this—ought the House to
he an assembly of retainers of the Crown, or of represen-
tatives of the people of England? He (Sir F. B.) would

piit it open that issue. At the MIA of the American teat
appeared a person whose eloquence and talents would have
enabled him to restore the country, but who proved the
remote cause of all our present distress.--(Hear.)—Mr
Pitt burst forth with an eloquence which dazzled the judg-
' ment, but there was another cause which conciliated more
partisans than even his eloquence and his abilities. The
!strongest hold he had on the partiality of the people of
England, was Ida advocacy of the principle he (Sir t.
Burdett) now advocated. It was Parliamentary Reform
which lifted Mr. Pitt to the cabinet and to political power.
Mr Pitt told the people, when the taxes were only
15,000,0001. a-year, that without a Reform in Parlia-
mene, they might expect fresh wars, corruption of every
kind, and an increase of the public Inn-dens; lie (Sir F.
Burdett) had experienced still more of the operation of the
system than he had mentioned. He had been a convicted
libell; r—(Hear.)—Ye(, a convicted libeller ; and he should
not scruple to venture again, when he conceived that the
right and liberties of the people demand the risk•--(Cheers.
He did not forget, however, that by the new law of libel; a
law which was a disgrace to the statute-book, he might, by
a 3etfond conviction, suffer the punishment of transporta-
tion. For aught he knew he might he again tried for
libel ; and if he were convicted, as convicted he most pro •
bably would be—for he knew not of what stuffjuries must
he composed, to return such verdicts as they had recently
seen—he might be sent to pass the rest of his life at Bo-
tany Bay, or at any other foreign dependency of England ;
and if he quitted England, it would be to him of little im-
portance where he might end his then miserable life. That
would not, however, deter him ; nor would it, he trusted,
deter any honest Englishman from pursuing that course
which was dictated to him by a sense of public duty.
Though he was willing to invite any man to court linger
unnecessarily, nor to oppose himself single-handed to the
united force of a powerful and, perhaps, a vindictive Go-
vernment, he would himself never quail before it, nor
stand in the awe of our atrocious libel act. Say it lie
must, be the consequences to himself what they might,
that as the House was now constituted, our personal li-
berty, the liberty of the press, every liberty that we en-
joyed, were enjoyed one and all as mere sufferance.—
( Hear, bear. )—What the Right Hon. Secretary might be
inclined to do—what his Hon. and Learned Friend the
Attorney-General might be instigated by the Cabinet to
do, he could not venture to predict. Of his Hon. and
Learned Friend he wished to speak with affection—
even with gratitude, for he had been his able and ho-
nest, and intrepid defender. He could not believe that his
Hon. and Learned Friend had institated the late prosecu-
tions of his own accord—he could not believe that he
had followed them up, except with great compulsion ; hot
be that and be that all things as they might, he hoped that
lie should have the fortitude never to desert those great
principles of constitutional liberty which he had set out in
life by asserting, and which he was not reluctant to (lie in
defending.—(Loud cheering.) He thought that no objec-
tion could be made in the present stage to the proposition
of the Noble Marquis. It was so usual to allow a Bill to
be intro.luced into the House that he could not conceive
it likely that any opposition would be made the motion for
leave to introduce this Bill. He did not mean to say that
the measure met altogether with his approbation, for it
did not go to the extent to which he himself should be in-
clined to push it. He had himself proposed two modes
of reform, one of which consisted in giving the right of
suffrage to all persons who paid direct taxes in the shape
of either church-rates or poor-rates. Let that mode be
adopted, or any other mode for infusing fresh spirit into
the House, and he should be content. He understood that
there were already on the order-book a motion for giving
the right of election to the great manufacturing towns of
England which were at present unrepresented. He trusted
that if that motion were carried there would be another pro- '
posed fur communicating the same right to the great ma-
nufacturing ,1
towns of Scotland, which were in a similar
predicament. But the representation of all our large towns
was so absurd in practice, and formed such an anomaly in I,
in our Constitution, that the whole system deserved to be
revised. Hon. Gentiemen had talked much that evening
of assimilating the law of England and of Ireland. Now,
with regard to Ireland, it should be recollected that Ire-
land already enjoyed a reformed representation, and that
Ireland as now represented—tin she had got rid of the
small boroughs—would form the model of an efficient re-
form for England. It was not, however, his duty to go
into that discussion at present; it was sufficient for him to I
feel now as strongly as ever he did, the imperative neces-
sity of reform. He hoped, and from the information which
lie had recently received from different parts of the country
he believed, that the people of England were at last begin-
ning to b stir themselves, and to place sufficient confidence
in their own powers of exertion. lie understood that
petitions would he sent to the House sobacked by ability
and union, such union as he had recently seen with plea-
sure exhibited at Birmingham, and mixed up with so
much caution and discretion, that it would be impossible
for the House not to take this important question into
its most serious consideration, with the honest intention of
adopting such reform as was suited to the state of the
country.—( Hear, hear.)

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL then rose to address
the House, but his commencing observations were inau-
dible in the gallery, and during the whale of his speech he
was very indistinctly heard, owing to the emotion which
he appeared to feel. After some remarks upon the motion
of the Noble Marquis, he proceeded to say, that he had
not risen so much for the sake of speaking upon it as for
the sake of observing on the extraordinary conduct of his
Hon. Friend opposite, who, in a debate, which had no
allusion to him (the Attorney-General) personally, had
thought proper to cast the weight of his heavy censure
upon him. He thought that as the re were two Motions
already upon the Order-book, which would afford some
regular opportunity for discussing his conduct, he might
have expected that at least, in candour, those who were
his friends—from his enemies he could expect nothing but
hostility—would have abstained from introducing such a
discussion until he had received due notice of their inter.-
tion.—(Hear.)—But as his Hon. Friend the Member for
Westminster had introduced him to the notice of the
House, he would continence by assuring his Hon. Friend
that there was no act of his professional life on which
he looked bark with greater satisfaction than that
in which he had the distinguished honour of appearing
as his (Sir Frarcis Burdett's defender.—( Hear, hear.)—
This he could at least say, that whether he had done it ably
or not, he had done it honestly, zealously, and sincerely,—
(Hear, hear,)—for he felt at that time, and he felt now,
that the prosecution instituted against his Hon. Friend
was a prosecution which ought never to be instituted
at Hear.)—He would not shrink from stating his
opinion upon that prosecution at all times and in all places;
but if his Hon. Friend would look into those proceedings
to which he had just alluded, and would impartially con-
sider all that he had done or said in the course of them,
he was persuaded that his Hon. Friend, for whom be felt
the utmost regard and affection, would find that he had
neither done nor said any thing inconsistent with the prin-
ciples on which he had defended his Hon. Friend.—
(Hear.)—He could not accept the compliment which his
Hon. Friend had wished to pay him, in supposing that
the late prosecutions had been forced upon him by great
compulsion by the Cabinet. Those prosecutions required
to he looked upon not incidentally in the course of another
debate, they were of sufficient importance to be considered
by themselves ; they formed part of the subject which de-
s-rved consideration as a whole, and as a whole they
must be considered, in order to see the reasons on which
the verdicts were founded. Those pro ecutions—he said
it without reserve—were approved by him—(great cheer-
ing)—for he thought them necessary to the well being of
the community. Such was his humble judgment, for he
arrogated to himself no superiority of judgment over other
men, hut as an honest man, he thought that after the
completion of the great measure of last session, which in
spite of all the warmth with which it was opposed was
n in,' working most beneficially for the country, he saw in
a portion of the press a disposition to licentiousness and
falsehood which rendered it necessary to administer some
check to it.—(Cheers from the ministerial benches.)—
Unless his Hon. Friend meant that the liberty of the press
should become the tyranny of the press, and that no man
should assert his right of private judgment except
under the peril of being attacked by the most wicked
and virulent falsehood, both in this private and in his public
capacity, he must admit that there were occasions upon which
some castigation must be administered to the oflences of the
press.—(Hear, hear.)—There was, in his opinion, no means
of destroying the licentiousness of the press, except by
showing that it contained in itself the destructiveness of
its real liberty.—(Cheers ) As to the libel law, which
the Hon. Baronet had denounced with so much warmth
and justice, he would only observe, that he had been in
the ranks of those who had both spoken anti voted against
it, and that if opportunity were given him, he would be
ready to be in the same ranks again.—(Cheers.) Let him,
however, remind his Hon. Ft iend the Member for West-
minster, if he had not entirely forgotten what had fallen
from so humble an individual as himself, that one of the
arguments which he had used against that Bill, and in
which he had the concurrence of several of his Learned
Friends whom he then saw in the house—(Hear, hear)—
was, that the licentiousness of the press might he corrected
by the law as it then stood, and that it wanted no other
correction.—(Hear.)—The House was however of a diffe-
rent opinion, and thinking some other corrective necssarv,
passed the Act in question. He was not ashamed to say
i❑ public—what all were ready enough to say in pri-
vatei—that no single individual eoull now resist

the tyranny of the press ; so that we were come
t() that condition so well described by the 'Roman histo-
rian, in which " nec mala nec remedia pati possum's."
In what he had said, he did not wish t« offend any man.
If he spoke with warmth—and it was perhaps impossible
for an individual, who had been assailed as he had, to

speak otherwise,—be meant no disrespect either to his
Hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, or to any other
Hun. Member nilio heard hitt. He could not, how-
ever, accept the insidious compliment which had been
paid him, when it was said that he had been instigated
by the Cabinet to institute the recent prosecutions,
—(Cheers.)—He had &beady refused, and he must refuse
again, to shelter himself under so mean-spirited a defence.
—( Hear.)—ln joining the present Administration, it was
distinct'y undetstood that It was not eitpected that he
snould abandon any opinion,—,-that he should compro-
mise any principle.—( Hear, hear.)—He hail joined it
with the sincere approbation of his warmest political
friends. In so doing he had nothing :of which to
repent ; (Elear)---no reproach had been cast upon him, and
he had the proud satisfation of reflecting, that be 'deserved
❑one. He would not remain for a single hour in office with
any administrptio❑ which should presume to order him
to perform the duties of his situation in any respect con-
traey to the dictates of his own conscience. —(Hear.) He
thought that the press of this country ought to enjoy lull
liberty, unshackled by any previous censure, but at the
same time he thought that the press would not long
enjoy that moral influence, which it ought to pos-
sess if every opinion or filsehood which it pro-
mulgated were treated with indifference,—if its rhap-
sodies in praise of some men and its calamities in depre-
ciation of others, were both to be considered as idle words
full of sound but meaning nothing. He wanted no new law,
be repeated, for the correction of the errors of the priss. He
was satisfied with the libel law of Mr. Fox, which when it
was first pissed after a struggle continued for several years,
was hailed as a great triumph by the fi iends of popular discus-
sion. That law gave to the Jury and (took from the Judge the
power of determining what was and what was not a libel. He
believed that there was not at present a Judge upon the trench
who would not leave to the Jury to determine whether the al-
leged libel was a libel or not. To the tribunal of a Jury he had
appealed in these recent prosecutions : they had found the pub-
lications which he had brought before them to be libels, and he
would venture to say, that if his Hon. Friend the Member for
Westminster had been a member of those juries, he (the Attor-
ney-General) should have had his concurrence in their verdicts.
—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had known his Hon. and Learned
Friend the Attorney-General for many years, and had never
known him profess any opinions but such as were favourable to
the cause of freedom.—(Hear, hear.)—He should therefore wait
to hear his explanation of his conduct in the recent prosecutions
before he ventured to give any opinion upon it. He cou'd not,
however, refrain from r.marking that there had lately appeared
in the newspapers words attributed—perhaps incorrectly—to his
Hon. and Learned Friend, which, if they were correct, he must
say could not be looked upon without regret. It was only the
other day that he read in the newspapers words said to have been
used by his Hon. and Learned Friend, which led him to suppose
that his Hon. and Learned Friend o,jected to the-public's can.
vassing the opinions of Judges and of Juries,—(Loud cries of
tt Hear.")—lie hoped that his Hon. and Learned Friend would
be able to explain these words away at the proper time.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord then proceeded to state, that in yo'ing with the
Noble Marquis upon the present occasion, he did so not upon
the grounds upon which the Noble Marquis had put it, but upon
the grounds upon which he had not put it. He voted for it, not
because he thought that it was a question which ought to be re-
ferred to a Committee of 21, but because he thought that it seas
a question which ought to be referred to a Committee of the
whole House. The Noble Lord proceeded to ridicule the idea
that the House had acted unfairly to such boroughs as it had
disfranchised for corrupt practices, inasmuah as it was notorious
that practices equally corrupt prevailed in every part of the coun-
try. There was no ground for applyin,;, as a Noble Lord had
done, the hacknied quotation,
" Dat veniam corvis—vexat ccnsura columbas."

The columbre, who received 291. fur their votes, and then went
and swore that they had received nothing, as was done at
Grampound, could not be considered as very innocent doves.—
(A laugh.)
Mr. PEEL was unwilling to give his vote without accompany-

ng it with a few observations, lest he should be deemed as acting
disrespectfully to the Noble Marquis, who had brought the mo-
tion forward. But, as he disapproved both of the object which
the Noble Marquis had in view, and of the mode in which he
sought to accomplish it, he should imitate the fairness of the
Noble Marquis himself by declaring that he should give his most
decided opposition to this Bill in its very first stage. He certainly
did not expect to have had a general discussion that evening on
the question of reform, and he thought that the desultory speech
of the Hon. Member for Westminster was a sufficient proof that
it was not convenient to have such a subject thus irregularly dis_
cussed. After exciting the laughter of the House by noticing
the extraordinary title to the Bill, which professes to be a Bill
not for preventing but for regulating abuses in elections of
Members to serve in Parliament, the Right Hon. Secretary
proceeded to observe that the speech of the Hon. Member for
Westminster was particularly open to the objection that there
was in it " eloquentix satin, sapientise parum,"—(A laugh)_
for though there was in it of declamation much, of argument
there was less than he had ever heard in any former speech of
the Hon. Baronet. If he had stepped into the House accidentally,
and without bnowing the subject of the debate, he should have
supposed the lion. Baronet to have been delivering an eloquent
speech, not in favour, but in opposition to a Reform in Parlia-
ment. He admitted that the House was improperly constituted
—that it contained men of the greatest talent in the country—
individuals, whose respectability in private life could not be
questioned—Members, who, to use the Hon. Baronet's own
phrase, were addicted to all the qualities which were calculated
to raise the character of the country, and who were equal to
any others in any part of Europe.—(Hear.)—lt was an important
admission coming from the Honourable Baronet that the
House assembles' men of eminence, talent, and private virtue,—
(Sir F. Burdett nodded assent)—actuated by the purest
views—(Sir F. Burdett, " No, no;")—and what rendered this
admission the more extraordinary was, that the Hon. Baronet
concluded it by contending that the sucele in which these emi-
nent, and able, and virtuous men were sent lucre, vitiated
all their good qualities, and rendered them obnoxious and dan-
gerous.—(Hear, hear.)—Then, when the Hon. Baronet entered
into a history of the constitution of the House, his argument
was all in favour of the small boroughs. The Hon. Baronet was
one of those individuals who would go down to posterity as one
of the most distinguished men of his day ; and yet he had told
them, " When I was first returned to this House, I was re-
turned for a small borough, owing no obligation to the party wino
returned me;" and had then proceeded to contrast his election
with that small borough with his election for a populous county.
He said, " I was a candidate for the representation of a large
county. I carried my election at a large expellee ;" and yet he
added, twice over, " for the honour of representing that county
I would not give two-pence." Under such circumstances, see-
ing that the llon. Baronet valued h's election for a small borough
more than he did his election fora populous county,—seeing that
Mr. Pitt, whose talents the Hon. Baronet admitted to have been
sufficient to render him, if he had been properly disposed, the
saviour of his country, had first entered Parliament for Appleby,
and that many other eminent myn had made their first Parlia-
mentary debut in a similar manner,—seeing that Mr. lox, when
excluded from the representation of a large town, found refuge
in a small borough,—he thought that the Hon. Baronet and the
House ought to weigh well the practical good effected by the
existence of these small boroughs before they involved them
all in one sweeping condemnation.—(Hear.)—As to the motion
of the Noble Marquis, he was quite certain that the House
would never agree to it. The Noble Marquis moved that the
House should devolve on a Committee of twenty-one Members
chosen by ballot, the power of destroying all the boroughs
which they should suppose were incapacitated by corrup-
tion or otherwise, from sending Members. He would
never be a party to that wholesale depreciation of the elective
franchise ' • and he would never give his assent even to the first
stage of a bill which conferred such power upon any committee.
A committee so constituted might inflict great wrong and injus-
tice. It might be ministerial—it might be opposition—but be it
what it might, he would never consent to allow any committee to
report to any secretary of state, that a borough had forfeited its
privilege, and to order him to give notice in the Gazette of that
borough that it had forfeited its share in the representation.—
(Hear.)—Next he objected to the Noble Marquis's plan for paying
Members of Parliament. They had that night been occupied in
discussing the propriety of reform; and yet the bill which was to
effect that reform contained a proposition enabling them to appro
priate to themselves 250,0001. annually—a very modest proposal,
and one well calculated to recommend the House to public confi-
dence.—(A laugh.)—The Noble Marquis was for allowing two
guineas a-day to every borough, and four guineas a-day to every
county member ; thus showing that he estimated a county member
at double the value of a borough member. Now taking three gui-
neas as the average sum paid to each member, supposing the
House to sit six days in every week, and the sessions to last for
twenty-five weeks, the sum annually paid to 659 members would
amount to a little more than 250,0001.—(Hear, hear, and roars of
laughter.)—On these grounds, and thanking the Noble Lord for
the manly and straightforward manner in which he declined pro-
posing the appointment of a Committee for the purpose of catch-
ing a few stray votes—thanking him for having openly declared
his plan of reform—he would state with equal fairness and equal
sincerity, that it was his intention to take the sense of the House
on the motion for bringing in the Bill.
Viscount HOWICK observed that, from the manner in which
the benches of that House were filled, it was impossible to expect
any great object for the benefit of the people. Such was the
state of the Hou e, that it might he justly asserted that the peo-
ple of England were not represented in Parliament. '1 he conse-
quence was, that a system of proflicacy and extravagance was
pursued which hash brought the nation to the verge of suits, and
those who caused it were now afraid to meet and encounter the
distress.—(llear.)—They now came down, and o relieve them-
selves, they called for the sacrifice of the national faith ; they
were anxious to defraud the national creditor of what was due
to him under the most solemn pledges.—(Hear.)—To him it ap-
peared that nothing could essentially serve the country but a
perfect and complete reform of that House.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, the principle on which the proposed
Bill proceeded was that of popular representation, and tine effec-
tual exclusions from Parliament of placement anti pensioners.
The adoptions of that principle would be truly beneficial to the
people, and he wished to see it carried into effect. He would
have the Members of that House completely free f orn every
taint of influence. They should neither have wages from the
people, nor salaries from the Crown.—(Hear.)—Those who spoke
so confidently of the purity of the House of Commons could
not, however, deny that '7B of the Members received of the pub-
lic money not less than 190,00(1. a year. Doubtless they were
all honourable men, all conscientious man. One of them, it ap-
peared, haul recently given a vote according to the dictates of
his conscience, and what was the consequence? Why, he was
immediately dismissed from his situation of groom of the bed-
chamber.—(Hear.)—The King himself, it was said, with his
own Royal hand, struck Isis name out of the 1 st of his house-
hold—(Hear.)—Had there, he asked, been no new writ moved
for on account of the member who had been raised to the va-
cant situation ? He supposed that that individual was as con-
scientious a man as any ; but let him beware how he obeys the
dictates 5.f his conscience, or there might chance to be a second
and even a third removal. Assuredly the House could never
be pure while any man in it was liable to be thus contiblied.
He (Mr. O'Connell) being elected by the people, denounced, on
the part of the people, al: those wino received the public money
for betraying those who sent them to Parliament. He called on
the House, in the name of the country, to accede to the pro.
ps.sed measure. One great reason which induced him to sup-
port the Bill was, because he was of opinions that none but real
representatives of the people should sit in that House : and
that object the Bill was calculated to effect. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Wootton Bassett had defended tine existing system ;
bunt he did not deny the fact, that there was a great body of fic-
titious representatives within those walls ? 24:s Members of th it
House were returned by peers, and 159 by commoners. In short,
if they went through the whole list of Members, they would find
that a great majority were returned, not by the people, but by
corrupt influence. Was that the British Constitutions ? No : it
was tine very reverse of it. The principles of the Constitution
went evens beyond the provisions of this Bill. For his own part,
he thought that all who paid taxes should have a sight to vote.
lie, as a Radical Reformer, would say that every man who paid
a tax, directly or bolirectly, should have a vote, ins order that so
far lie might have an opportunity of regulating the taxes whici
affected him, and of preserving his property. It was not pro-
perty that should be represented, but mans that should be repre-
sented, It was said that the present system worked well. Ho,

had it worked well ? It hod (treated 800,000,0001. of debt, which
was now pressing on you,while the people:were crying out,lon ae-
count of the prevailing distress from One end of the country to
the other. And what was the answer to their cries ? A lively'
speech, ornamented with a few stale jokes, from the Right Thin.
Secretary, and something of the same kind from the Hon•
Member tin- (Wootton Bassatt.—(Hear.)-oh, this was mockery.
and the tale will tell badly when it is narrated to a starving ItoPii-
lation. When he saw gentlemen of high talent and great pri-
vat • worth assisting the Minister in all his views, it convinced
him more than any thing else of the necessity of Reform; be-
['Anse it was clear that such men, who would be pure if they
could, 'Were borne Away by their association with a tyrannical
oligarchy. When he saw that, lie mar more than ever iati•fied
that there ought to be a Radical Referin Ile stroke for the
people, and on behalf of them. Ile was anxious to (Xe
governed by the principles of a refined and limited monatchyt
and saved from the piercing fangs of a tyrannical oligarchy.
Mr. BROUGH AM said the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
seemed to have taken a very erroneous view of the motives which
induced Gentlemen to support the proposition of the Noble Lord,
although they differed from him on some of the details of his
Bill. Could it be sunposed that his Noble Friend, the Member
for Aylesbury, or his Hon. }'fiend the Member for Cornwall.
would support the measure, in the first instance, merely for the
purpose of strangling it hereafter.—(Hear.)—Nothing surely
could be more ridiculous or senseless than such conduct. The
fact was, he understood, that his Hon. Friends, though they did
not approve of every part of the measure, yet gave their entire
approbation to some parts of it ; and on that principle, if it were
pushed to a ditision, he for one would give his vote in its favour.
Some of the provisions of the Bill...that, for instance, which as-
signed wages to Members of Parliament, (lid hot meet his wishes.
But when he looked to other parts edit, he should be deviating
from the consistency of conduct he had ever maintained, if he
did not give the Noble Lord opportunity of carrying ttiflse pot,
(ions of his measure into effect. He thought the propositithr flit
admitting all copyholders to vote—the provision for the diminu-
tion of expenses at elections, by allowing votes to be taken in the
neighbourhood of the elector—the clause for allowing Scotch
cities, boroughs, and counties, to enjoy the franchise as it was
exercised in England, which was in itself a most valuable altera-
tion (for Scotland was admitted, on all hands, to be without a
shadow of repre.sentation)—he thought that these points were
well worthy the consideration of the House.—(Hear.)—One of
the worst parts of the system was connected with places where
the electors were not very few, where; non-residents were al-
lowed to vote. If that class of voters were cut off, it would be
greatly in favour of English reform; for it was these out-voters
who created all the confusion, eisarder, and bribery, which ge.
nerally prevailed.—(Bear.)—ln his opinion, however, it would
have bees better if the Noble Lord had agreed to the suggestion
which had been thrown out, but which he had received with con-
tempt and indignation. He meant the suggestion to propose a
general resolution in favour of reform, instead of introducing a
specific plan. The Noble Lord said, that such a course would
nut be sufficiently direct. Now it appeared to him that it would
go directly to his object If he could get the House to adopt
s rue resolution of that kind, the ultimate object would be more
attainable, and the proceeding would be more hopeful than the
present, He thought it was not inconsistent with the Noble
Lord's plan, and was less dangerous to the success of the great
question of parliamentary reform. He, therefore, would recom-
mend the Noble Lori to substitute for his motion an amendment
to this effect:—" That this House is of opinion that a reform in
the Representation of the people is expedient—(The Marquis of
Blandford—" I sin willing to do so.")—The Noble Lord might
agree to this general resolution with respect to reform, without
incurring the censure of having taken this course for the purpose
I of catching a few stray votes.—(Hear, hear.)—He repeated, not
for the foolish senseless purpose of catching a few votes. It mat-
tered not a straw whether the motion was lost by 10 votes more
or less. But he knew the friends of reform were hampered
by the details of the measure Some of them feared, if
they voted for the measure, a part of which they at'-
proved, that they might be set down as sanctioning the
whole of the details. They would thus be placed in a dis.
lacgarft aobii 1e
I),reerrsi cnasint conbt:A
ieve tthhaet o
tni e
3h,
aa
inld)
r,
otyhe
de i rocf o
tnhdeu ct m
wholeig hotr
the details, if they voted for the measure, although they disap-
proved of part of them ; on the other, if they took the more
painful course, that of voting against the motion, they would
leave a doubt in the minds of some individuals, whether they
had not relaxed in their effbrts to obtain reform.—(Hear, hear.)
—These were the reasons which induced him to pretr the gene-
ral resolution, and not the hope of catching a few stray votes.
He had heard, and with indignation, his Hon, and Learned
Friend, the Member for Wootton Bassett, presume to charge the
Noble Lord, who hail supported the cause of Parliamentary Re-
form so ably, (and who, he believed, was a sincere convert,) with
having made a ludicrous ironical speech ; and he, at the same
time time, accused his Hon. Friend, the Member for Westmin-
ster, with having spoken in a strain of more stern irony. If his
lion. and Learned Friend would bring forward, with such dis-
tingu'shed talent as the Noble Lord had displayed that night,
motions for the good of his country, or, when others brought
them forward, if he would support them with one half the ability'
and sincerity of his Hon Friend the Member for Westminster,
he would hail, with pleasure, his acquisition to the patriot list of
that House.—((lcar.)
Mr. H. TINISS had not the remotest idea of imputing to the
Noble Marquis any such feeling as the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman adverted to, and therefore he did not deserve the unjust,
erroneous, and he would say, unbecoming remarks that were
made of him.

Mr. BROUGHAM certainly did hear the Hon. and Learned
Member speak of two sorts of irony--the one more ludicrous, the
other more stern. As to his observation being unbecoming, he
thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should thank him for
giving him an oppf,rtunity of explaining a point, with respect to
which, but for:that explanation, it would appear the whole House
would have been totally mistaken.—(A laugh.)
Mr. STANLEY felt it to be his duty, being called on to give
his vote, one way or another, to declare, that he would vote
against the Bill. He could not support a Bill now, which he
knew he must oppose hereafter.
Colonel GAMES—The amendment is general, and the Hell.
Gentleman may vote for that.
Mr. MA BERLY, though a reformer, could not support the
motion. Ile hoped the Hon. and Learned Member for Knares-
borough would move his amen. ment, width he would support.
If he did not, he would leave the House without voting.
Lord Aof s
his Noble lat
euila
tle
ifehicfl
ibt
hand
bp
el- eelii,a prepared ttoo sau,p.oTert; tle
butmotion 1
he agreed with his Hon. Friend (Mr. Brougham) as to the expe-
diency of generalizing the proposition.
Mr. PEEL suggested that the first question should be—" That
the words proposed to be left ont do stand part of the BHP" If
this were carried in the affirmative, they would then have 10
deal with tha Hon. and Learned Gentleman's Amendment.

strangers were ordered to withdraw.
The House then divided upon the Marquis of BLANDFORD'g
original motion:—
For the Motion 57
Against it— l6O
Majority against the Marquis of lilandford's M0ti0n......
Mr. BROUGHAM declined pressing for a division upon his
Amendment, many Hon. Members having left the House.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of and the
House adjourned at a Quarter.past One o'Clock.

FItICES OF STOCKS THIS
Rank St~ck
3 per Cent. lied. ... ...... 93q 3,4 kii
3 p,r Cent. Cons. 921004
n; per Cent
Dial !ictl.! ..
4 per Cent. Ann.
Ditto, 1;426
Rank 1.. Ann. l9 11-16
Ditto 30 Nears l9 7-16 %
Ditto 30 years
India `dock
Ditto Bonds 7B 791 m.

DAT ♦T ONE O'CLOCK.

South Sea Stock
Old Annuities
New Ditto
F. Bills, .£l,oon 2d. 77 79 pm.
Ditto lid. 77 7l pm.
Ditto ........„..SO' 2d. 77 78 pm.
lid. 77 78 pm.
~mall
Ditto 10417 79 pm.
I Plank tbr Account
India for Account 2lO 4
Cons. for Feb.2s 92%

LADY GRAVES.

THE PAUL PRY of Sunday next will
give exclusive particulars of the late Dreadful Affair
in High Life. Consonant with the Prospectus, it will
defy the Itw of libtl, and out with the truth at once. In
calling attention to this new undertaking, PAUL PRY
urges no claims for public suppott but those to be found
in the pages of his Paper, with the acknowledged co-
operation and assistance of the first writers of the day.
He intends to adopt a consistent line of politics—to insert
nothing but original articles—to animadvert upon " men
and th•ngs" fearlessly—and to "drop in" at the breakfast
table of his friends every Sunday morning with such a
Budget of Wit, Fun, Humour, and Eccentricity, as shall
rival, if nut eclipse, any publication of the kind in
existence.

" No flattery, boy ! an honest man can't live by't."
* Orders, Communications, and Advertisements re—
ceived at the Paul Pry Office, 13, Wellington-street,
Waterloo-bridge.