The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-20 00:00:00

voted for himself and his Honourable Colleague
while 36 voted against them.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
What a trumpery accusation then, unsupported by facts,
unsustained by testimony, had the Hon. Baronet brought
forward. He would not waste the time of the House far.

tber in following the speech of the Hon. Baronet,
it would be only crushing a butterfly upon the wheel.
—(Laughter.) The Hon. Baronet, although he sat upon
the other side of the House, was one of the best of Re-
formers, for he would venture to say that if they often had
such exhibitions—if they often had such puny arguments
wanting in thought—if they bad jests and alliteration, and
antithesis, in place of sound argument, and a correct
statement of facts, it would not be long before they had
Triennial Parliaments and Vote by Ballot.—(Cries of
" Oh 1" and repeated cheering.) Let him have but
658 Members of the same temper, disposition, and
judgment as the Hon. Baronet, and he would venture to
say that the country would soon call for a new Reform Bill.
He would most decidedly and strenuously support the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord, and he would add that there never
was a vote on which his heart went so entirely as the pre-
sent. He believed that Ireland was a country extremely
distressed, and that was entirely owing to misgovernment.
It had been stated on the other side, that there was an in-
crease of crime during the administration of Lord Nor-
manby, it appeared that the number of homicides in 1837
was 238, and in 1838 was 241, but on looking at the con-
stabulary returns he found that in 1834 the number was
278, and in 1835 it was 261, and that was a proof that
crimes of that serious nature were diminishing. It was a
great merit to Lord Normanby that during his administra-
tion the Orange Lodges bad been suppressed. If these
Societies, secret and illegal in their nature, had not been
suppressed by the prompt interference of the executive, the
most lamentable results would have ensued.—( Hear.)
What was the state of Ireland under the Tory regime—a
system of cruel oppression was maintained during the whole
period, with only slight exceptions, during the French
and American wars.—( Cheers.) Another grand feature
of the Government of the Marquis of Normanby was the
mixed system of education—it had been commenced
under the Government of Lord Grey, but it had been most
ably and honourably carried out under the late Governor,
and he thought, it would, in the course of years, prove a
blessing to Ireland. There were now upwards of 200,000
children receiving education without any reference to their
religion.—( Question, question.) He was speaking to the
question. The question was the Executive Government
of Lord Normanby. and he was stating the state of educa-
tion under it.—( Question.) He knew and understood the
question as well as Hon. Gentlemen opposite—he knew
their tyranny and their bigotry, but ho would tell them
that they would not put him down.—(Cheers, and
cries of " Oh.") The next charge was that the Noble
Lord had abused the prerogative of mercy—that the Noble
Lord had been merciful was most true, and he (Mr. H.)
considered that he was perfectly justified in the experi-
ments which he bad tried. He had seen 'the long reign
of tyranny of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite—he had seen
that that tyranny had defeated its own object, and he was
perfectly justified in trying an experiment on the
other tack, and it had been proved that the mer-
ciful course was the best. He considered that
the Government were perfectly justified in calling for
an expression of opinion from that House. It was neces-
sary that they should leave such a motion upon record so
that, should they be driven from offi:e, the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite would not he able to govern the country
without a new Parliament.—( Cheers.) Considering the
lateness of the hour, and the great length to which the
debate had been drawn, he would not detain them
longer—( Cheers)—but he trusted that the majority
of that House would approve of the merciful Government
of the late Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. _ _

nothing of the kind was to be done afterwards. The
Noble Lord stated it was attended with beneficial conse-
quences, and instanced the county of Sligo. The Noble
Lord imagined he had no case to account for but that of
Sligo; he forgot totally the 19 or 20 in the county of
Westmeath ; and when reminded of them be said he
would take Sligo first, but he sat down without referring
to Westmeath at all. He would take the liberty of
referring to a few other counties, and to the crimes com-
mitted in Ireland, and he would shew that the most unpre-
cedented, the most mischievous and the most unconstitu-
tional acts had been committed that were ever perpetrated
by any public officer. He was satisfied that some Hon.
Members opposite were not acquainted with the hundredth
part of the mischievous acts done by Lord Normanby in
Ireland, or they would not stand up and defend him.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) The acts of that Noble Lord would
justify impeachment as much as the acts of any Minis-
ter ever justified such a course. The Honourable
and Learned Sergeant then referred to the discharge
of prisoners by the Lord Lieutenant from gaols of
Tipperary, in which 57 prisoners were discharged by mere
oral order of his Excellency, of Clonmel, Waterford, and
Leitrim, in the detail of which he was frequently inter-
rupted by cries of " Divide, divide," and " Question,
question." The Hon. and Learned Serjeant went on amid
renewed calls for division for some time, but finding the
House wearied out by his details, he concluded to their
evident satisfaction.

Mr. LEADER could assure the House that he would
not detain them long, as he was as weary of that long de-
bate as any of them.—( Cheers and laughter.) Before
proceeding with the few words he had to address to
the House, he felt it necessary to apologize for
the ill-judged attack of the last speaker upon the
Hanourable Baronet opposite. That attack arose from
the excess of his paternal affection, which led him to tike
as personal any attack upon a Cabinet in which his brother
held a place.—(Laughter.) That question at present
was considered as one purely Irish, but whenaver the
Government had got that small majority which he supposed
they would have, they would at once take credit to them-
selves for having got a vote of confidence from the H, use.
lie was sure that that would be the case, and, therefore,
he was most anxious to explain to the House the grounds
on which he would give his vote. If it was to
be considered a vote of confidence, from what party
was it to come? Was it from the great party
opposite?—(Laughter.) They frequently, indeed,
received tho support of that great aad powerful
party, but in scarcely any single debate dld not the
Right 1100. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, cr
S-Arie ()flits friends take the opportunity of expressing their
dissatisfaction and contempt fur the Government—con-
tempt which he (Mr. L.) considered to be deserved.—
( Loud cheers.) Can the Government pretend that they
have the confidence of the Radicals in the House ? They
certainly had the support of the Radicals against the Tories,
but in every measure of progres.sive reform, however small,
that n.ea-ure might be, the Radicals were decidedly opposed
to them. The only party then, which had any confidence
in the Government, was the Irish party—a powerful
party undoubtedly, and one de,erving of great respect and
consideration. But had the Ministry the support and con-
fidence of that party in their legislative measures for
Ireland, as Well as their executive? If so, what
had become of the Appropriation Clause. It had
been declared over and over again, that no Tithe Bill for
lreland would be acceptable without that clause, yet it had
been abandoned by the Government. If that party had
confidence in the Government with respect to its legislative
measures, what was the meaning or object of the Precursor
Society ?--(Laud cheers.) The only confidence which
the Government then could find in that House was
amongst the Irish Members, and that entirely and
strictly confined to their Administration by policy
in Ireland. There was certainly the small party '
of pure Whigs, but that party was so very small that
it was scarcely worthy of consideration. Let them then
go to the country, and what great interest would they find
there having confidence in the Government ; the great
landed aristocracy ?—(Laughter)—No ; in spite of the
attempts made by the leader of that House to conciliate
them by stating that in his opinion that party ought to
be dominant, still that interest was decidedly opposed
to them.—( Hear, hear.) Had the electors confidence in
theta then ? Let them look at the late elections in North
Devon—in Carlow, and the narrow majority which they
obtained in Wigan.—(Cheers and laughter.) Had the
manufacturing interest any confidence in the Government?
How was it possible that they could, when the Chief of
that Government said, that the man who called for a re-
peal of the Corn-laws was a lunatic. Had the working
classes any confidence in the Ministry ? So far
from it that at any public meeting any one attempting
so support or speak in favour of the Government
was scouted almost unanimously. He would refer to the
late public meeting held at Edinburgh, which used to be
the hot-bed of Whiggery, and which was represented by
two of the most eminent of the Whig party ; yet at that
public meeting the Whigs were scouted, hooted at, and

obliged to give way to -the working men. They found
then that the Government had the confidence of no party.
In fact they existed upon the forbearance of the Hon.
Members opposite.—(Cheers.) That they did not use
that power, which most undoubtedly they possessed,
of turning them out on the present occasion—in fact, be-
cause the Tories were not yet ready for office—because at
the present moment they did not like the aspect of the po-
litical horison. They existed because the Radicals had not
yet made up their minds to join with the Tories and oust
them from their places.—( Cheers.) W:3at a miserable
position for a Government to be in.—(Loud cheering.)
Yet the Noble Secretary for Ireland said that the
Government would exist no longer by sufferance.
Why, for two years they had existed by sufferance. Even
now, at the present moment, they were existing upon the
sufferance of ten or twelve gentlemen on that side of the
House.--( Loud cheers.) And, moreover, be would fur-
ther tell the Government, that if any motion of a want of
confidence in the Government in consequence of their
general policy were made from the opposite side of
the House, more than ten or twelve gentlemen would
join with the Tories against them.—(Loud cheers.)
What was the present situation of affairs ? The Right
Hon. Baronet opposite governed England.—( Cheers. )
The Hon. Member for Dublin ruled Ireland.—(Loud
cheers.) The Whigs ruled nothing but Downing-street.
The Hon. Member:for Tamworth was contented with power
without either place or profit—the Whigs were content
with place and profit without power.—( Immense cheering. )
He would leave it to the country to say which was the
most honourable position. The Ministers had dissented from
every measure for which the people put them into power.
On the Ballot—on an extension of the Suffrage, even to
the smallest degree, they were found voting with the
people's bitterest enemies. They were not true even to
their own colleagues. They had lost respect and charac-
ter by treatment and desertion of Lord Durham last year—
they bad lost character when, in the most unhand..
some and 'most unexampled manner they had dis-
missed from office one of their colleagues.
Moreover, that very colleague who last year they had de.
Glared was one of the very best and ablest cf their col.
leagues, and by whom they were prepared either to stand
or fall.—( Loud cheers.) By such proceedings they had
lost character in the country, but above all they had lost
all character because they had abandoned the people, and
had become as Conservative as the Honourable Members
opposite. He agreed with the Honourable Member
for London (t%lr. Grote) that if there was to
be a Government, acting on Tory principles,
he would rather see a Government that would be respon-
sible to the country—he would rather see the Tories
sitting on the Treasury Benches than see them sitting on
the Opposition, and dictating to their servants, the Whigs,
what was to be done. He was anxious to show by his vote,
as he was by words, his disapprobation of the Government
policy. It was necessary for him then to soy a few
words respecting the vote which he was about to
give. Had he been called upon to give a vote of confidence
to the Ministry for their legislation for Ireland, he could
not have done it. All that he was called upon now to vote
was, that he agreed in, and entirely approved of by the
Administration-of the Marquis of Normanby while in Ire-
land. He could not give his vote in any way that would
at all imply censure upon that Nobleman. The vote of
the other House was considered a vote of censure upon the

Mr. S HIE L then started up and said—Mr. Speaker, in
one position, Sir, of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman I
entirely concur—the speech he has just delivered
was certainly no joke.—(Cheers and laughter. )—He
will forgive me for saying it was conspicuous for
ability, but certainly not marked by originality.
1 will not say " tedious as a thrice told tale"—( Cheers)—
but, " deceis repetita placebit."—( Cheers.) I had plea-
sure in hearing the speech of my Hon. Friend the Member
for Finsbury. I will venture to give him—not an admo-
nition—but a frank friendly hint. Let us not imitate the
example of the Tories in 1830. There are many respects
in which their example ought to be imitated—but let us

follow their present union, not their past dissension.—
( Cheers.) You all remember what took place in
1830—notwithstanding the ostentatious exhibition of
cordiality. I doubt whether the reconciliation
is perfectly sincere.--(Cheers and laughter.) Sir, as to
the opinion of my Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury
upon the general policy of the Government, I cannot help
thinking that they are not apposite to the present discus-
sion. I think it is injudicious to merge Ireland in the

question of Reform, as it-would be to merge Reform in the
Irish question.—( Cheers.) But when Honourable
Gentlemen say that they condemn the general policy
of the Government, with the exception of Ireland,
they should remember that they make a very large excep-
tion—an exception of a great segnant of the empire, con.
taining one-third of its population.—( Cheers.) Sir, I
cannot help thinking that hereafter the historian who shall
advert to the events now passing before us—when an im-
partial verdict can be obtained—when " malice domestic,"
with the passions,the jealousies,and the contentions by which
we are now affected shall no longer remain—l cannot help
thinking that the future historian will bestow great com-
mendation on the present Government.—( Ironical cheers
from the Opposition, re-echoed by those from the Mi.
nisterial benches.) Sir, I cannot help thinking, that
hereafter it will be considered that the Nobleman who
lately governed Ireland—who discomfited the Planta
faction—who prepared the way for that great measure
by which the liberation of his fellow-subjects—the negro
population—was eff2cted ; and who, in the government of
Jamaica, obtained the approbation of the Noble Lord, who
was then Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), and
who afterwards undertook the government of Ireland, with
a firm determination to do justice to the great majority of
her people, and who, although the suppression of politic
excitement could not be at once effected, yet succeeded, by
his policy, in divesting it of the most formidable of its cha-
racteristic ~who secured justly and permanently, for the Go-
vernment to which he is attached, the important and unde-
viatiog sustainment of two-thirds of the Irish Members, and
who being transferred from the Government of Ireland to
the Government of those colonies—in whose pacification he
had exhibited peculiar aptitude—bears away with him the
consciousness of having deserved, as he has most assuredly
obtained, the lasting confidence of the great majority of
the Irish people.—( Loud cheers.) 'Sir, I am struck with
the great contrast between the amendment and the
speeches by which it was supported.—( Loud cheers. )
The amendment was the previous question in pa-
,
rentliesis.—( Hear and a laugh.) Ti.e Right lion. Ba-
ronet who introduced it made a very previous question
kind of speech—(Laughter)—but though '° bursting with
heroic rage" he spoke with tranquil magnanimity.
( Laughter.) But the lion. Members who supported him
have not followed his example—scarcely one of them but
has made a furious philippic against the Marquis of Nor-
manby.—( Hear, hear, hear.) I cannot help thinking par-
ticularly th at the Right Hon. Baronet would do well to
spike a piece of Sligo ordnance.—(The allusion was to
Col. Perceval, and occasioned great laughter.) But it
llon. Members think the Marquis of Normanby deserves
. _

strong censure, why move the previous question ?—( Hear.
hear.) Was this the course taken upon the second read-
ing of the Iri,h Municipal Corporation Bill ?—( Hear.) I
see before me the Hon. Member for Oxford ( Sir R. In-
glis). On that occasion he exhibited an example of most
conscientious mutiny against the Hon. Bart.--( Laughter. )
He placed himself at the head of the minority of
40—an appropriate number by the bye—(laughter)—who
voted against the rights of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But
you now think the previous question ought to be moved—
you think a collision ought to be avoided with the House of
Loids. Certainly a collision ought not to be risked un-
less it was rendered imperatively necessary, but you recite
upon your amendment that a motion was made by Mr.
Shaw in this House. For what ?—for inquiry? No, but for
papers.—(llear. ) The Right Hon. Bart. the Member for
Pembroke (Sir J. Graham) last night wanted an inquiry,
forsooth, to inquire into the causes by which spade hus-
bandry, which had succeeded in Belgium, had failed in
Ireland.—(Elear, hear.) Why, then, was not an inquiry
moved for in this House, instead of a motion for papers,which
was not opposed, and upon which some forensic statesmen
made some speeches, infinite in length and infinitessimal in
detail, till the enumeration of Irish horrors counted out

the House.—(Laughter.) Why, I ask, did not Lord
Roden move for papers, as Mr. Share did, or why did not
Mr. Shaw move for inquiry as the Earl of Roden did?—
(Cheers.) Ohl I wilt tell you. Because you knew that
in the House of Lords you could hang upon a nominal vote
for inquiry a virtual vote of censure.—(Cheers.) You
say, indeed, it is inquiry, not censure; will any man
produce me an instance in which inquiry has been moved
after charges brought against a Minister, limiting the in-
quiry to a specific time. Suppose, for instance, that in
the year 1818, when the Right Hon. Baronet's ( Peel's)
Government in Ireland terminated, his Government was
was impeached—and certainly under that Government the
administration of the law—l purposely avoid harsh terms—
was anything but what it ought to have been. No Ro-
man Catholic was aivanced to the bar ; from all the offices
to which they were eligible they were excluded; Orangeism
was in the plenitude of its power—l am not mentioning
these things for the purposes of imputation—times have
changed and men have changed in the times, and the
Right Hon. Baronet has undergone a great modification
of opinion—l wish it gee larger. Suppose that in 1818,
after charges had been brought against the Right Hon.
Baronet's Government, a Committee of Inquiry had been
appointed limited to that Administration—NlY God ! would
not that be regarded as a vote of censure ?—( Loud cheers.)
Oh ! put special pleading aside. The Bishop of Exe-
ter— is a prominent person on the Committee. Cheers.)
It originates with the Deputy Grand Master of the
Orangemen—(Cheers)—the Viceroy of his Gracious
Majesty, the King of Hanover—(Continued cheers)—
and taking into consideration the somewhat inquisitorial
genius of that great Protestant dominical—(Cheers )
the Apostolic Pontiff of Exeter—(Continued cheers)
—can you doubt whether this is a vote" of censure
or not ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) But it has been said
that this is a collision with the Lords, and the Hon.
Bart., the Member for Tamworth, said there is no prece-
dent since 1803, and then he quoted a passage from
Burnet, which was most effective.—(Hear, bear, from
Lord Stanley.) The Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire says " Hear, hear." Does the Noble Lord,
who cries " hear, hear," when 1 said the passage was an
effective one, forget the transaction to which he himself
was a party in the year 1833 ?—( Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Bart. (the Member for Pembroke) looks at the Noble
Lord—( Great laughter and cheers)—with the pleasures
of memory. I cannot supply them with " The Pleasures of
Hope." The Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for
Tamworth, must supply them.—(Cheers.) But taking
the precedent to which I have referred, it is simply this—
on the 3d of June, 1833, the Duke of Wellington made a
motion in the other House of Parliament for an address,
praying the Crown to maintain neutrality with
Portugal. That was regarded as a reflection on the
foreign policy of the Whig Government. On the 6th of
June, 1833, three days afterwards, a motion was made in
this House upon the express ground that a counter-acting
and countervailing proceeding on the part of the House of
Commons, was indispensable, declaring confidence in his
Majesty's Government, not general confidence, but con-
fidence on that specific branch of policy to which the
motion in the House of Lords applied, and the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on being charged
with supporting a motion which amounted to an interposi-
tion with the House of Lords, declared that he admitted
there was a collision, and he said the Lords had made it
indispensable.—( Cheers.) Who were the Members of
the Cabinet? Did the Noble Lord who cried " Hear,
hear," admit there was a collision? Was it a collision
upon a specific branch of policy? I believe the Noble
Lord will admit it was. Let me ask why he read the
petition from Rochdale, at the opening of the
proceedings on that question with such good emphasis
certainly not very good discretion—( Laughter)—touching
this House coming into collision with the House of Lords.
(Cheers.) Does not everybody remember the Noble Lord
with that admirable articulation in which he has no rival—
( Loud laughter)—laying a most judicious stress on every
word, and stating the authority of the great statesmen of
Rochdale as his auxiliaries in this emergency, to sustain
the other branch of the Legislature. But shall I stop
there ? No. The Noble Lord, the Member
for Stroud, the other night, gave information of incalcula.
ble value. He told us that the whole of the Cabinet of
1831, with a single exception, agreed to swamp—that is a
nautical phrase.—(Laughter and cheering, during which
Sir J. Graham made a remark.) You say it is a Green-
u ich phrase—l say it is an Admiralty phrase. I suppose
you remember it fro.n the sinking of the Royal George__
( Continued cheering.) I3ut, to proceed, let the Noble Lord
explain the vote of 1833, and next the swamping
of the House of Lords.—(Hear, hear, and loud cheers.)
The Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke,
talked of a compact alliance.—( Hear, hear.) Oh ! that
alliance—you formed an alliance, but not a very Compact
one, between the champions of Old Sarum and the garri-
son of Getter], and the swampers of the House of Lords.
—(Great cheering.) But, now, you will tell ma I am
evading the question.—(Tory cheers.) But you will see I
shan't evade it. (Ministerial cheers.) The first point I take
is the distribution of patronage in Ireland—that is a very
sore point with the Irish Protestants. The fact is, that
the monopoly of patronage in Ireland was considered an
ancient Protestant prerogative—( Cheers)—and a vested

late Lord Lieutenant, by a large majority of the people
of Ireland—as a vote of censure upon a man whom
they looked upon almost with reverence—looking at that,
and the good which, he believed, the Noble Lord had con-
ferred on Ireland, he could not vote with the amendment.
Upon th it occasion, therefor,,, he sacrificed his own
opinions to what he conceived to be the good of the Irish
people. Ile voted with, not for the Government. —( Cheers. )
Mr. Sergeant JACK SON commenced by contradicting
the statements of the Hon. Member for South Shields, and
the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General for Ireland, rela-
tive to the appointment of Mr. Justice Perrin. The Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, in his very elcquent and
efLetivo speech, fell into the same mistake as the Hon.
Member for South Shields, in thinking that it was
only in trifling cases Lord Nortnanby had exercised
the prerogative of mercy in Ireland. In fact,
the Noble Lord said it was a mere experiment, and that

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, APRIL 20, 1839.

right—( Continued cheers)—but to look at the policy of
the Marquis of Normanby, I will first take the
Church.—( Hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet, 1
the Member for Tamworth, in a manner that
does him credit, said at once, openly, n ithout
reserve, Lord Normanby deserves credit for the
manner in which he has distributed the patronage of the
Church.—( Hear, hear.) He gave the Government of
the Marquis of Normanby, in that particular, unqualified
praise.—( Hear, hear) Did a single man who followed
him pursue his example in that respect?—(Cheers.) Did
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, last
night, avail himself of the opportunity thus afforded of pay-
ing cordial tribute to the isolated merits of his former friend.
You charge the Marquis of Normanby and the Govern-
ment with having a design to subvert the Church. If so,
he would have enough traitors in disguise into the garri-
son. Instead of that every one of his appointments did
him credit. He has distinguished men for their character
—their erudition, and their piety. I will take his last ap-
pointment ( Dr. Tonson). I believe he is a Conservative
in opinion, but in conduct he is a Christian. Dr.
Tonson avails himself of an address from his Clergy to say
that it is to the Marquis of Normanby he is exclusively in-
debted. There were 37 curates i a Ireland promoted to
benefices by the Marquis of Normauby, and they had no
claim, excepting their piety and poverty.—( Cheers.) The
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, last night
mentioned the case of Colonel Shaw Kennedy. When
he resigned whom did Lord Normanby appoint in his
place ? Did the Hon. Member for Pembroke mention that ?
Not he. Was it a Radical that he appointed, an agitator, a
man disposed to become a coadjutor in excitement ? No,
he selected a Scotchman. —( Laughter from the Tories.)
I see the Member for Kilmarnock laughs.—( Cheers. )
No man will say, I am sure, that the successor to Colonel
Shaw Kennedy was a Whig. Ido not know that he was
of any politics at all, but I took care to remark that when
the Member for Pembroke mentioned the resigna-
tion of Colonel Shaw Kennedy he did not recom-
mend the appointment of his successor ; the facts
of this case are really better than the story of Tom Gal-
lahey and Nora Creina, which we have just heard in the
elaborate speech of the Member for Bandon.—( Cheers.)
Now I shall allude to the constabulary. There are four
Inspectors of Constabulary for the four provinces in Ireland.
Of course it will be supposed that all those appointments
were made by my Learued Friend, who has the patronage
at his disposal, if so my Learned Friend has displayed
great impartiality indeed, for three of the inspectors were
Protestants and one a Roman Catholic ; and if the Hon.
, Baronet the Member for Tamworth shall make similar
appointments in the event of his coming into office, there
is not one of those appointments which we shall not feel
bound to support. Now there has been great stress laid upon
one appointment—l mean that of my Hon. Friend the
Member for Clonmel ; but what are the facts of this case?
Two years ago he was appointed counsel to the Castle,
being at the same time a member of a political Society.
You will ask what were the purposes of that Society ?
The purposes were the promotion of Corporate Reform
without any reference to the abolition of tithe,
now I do not think there is any great offence being a
member of such a Society, nor do I approve of a principle
of Government that would not promote a member of a
Society if its objects were legitimate, such as those of that
Society were—( Hear, hear)—but let us inquire what
was the character of that Society, was it a Society
which used secret signs ?—( Hear, and cheers.) Did it
employ mysterious symbols of recognition ?—( Cheers)—
did it enjoin conditional allegiance to the Crown ?—( Loud
cheers) —and unconditional allegiance to the Grand Mas-
ter ?—( Renewed cheers.) But to avoid toa much cir-
cumlocutory interrogation, was it a society by which
warrants signed " Ernest " were issued.—( Vehement
cheering.) I allude to the Orange Societies.—
(Laughter and cheers ) Now the Member for Tamworth
smiles at this ; I He read in his speech on the amendment
a thing not usual with him, an account of the progress of
the Marquis of Normanby through Sligo from, I believe,
the Sligo Champion, and certainly his commentaries on
the papers were amusing, but as he has given me the
preference, by reading from a provincial paper, on
what is called his side oc politics, I may be
permitted to return the obligation by reading for an ex-
tract—not from a provincial paper, not from an ob-
scure print, published in a sequestered district—but
from the great Irish Gazette of his party, the
Dublin Evening Mail, the paper is dated the 31st of
December, 1834, being just one dry short of the inquiry,
which is limited to 1835, the passage is headed " Lord
Roden and the Stewardship of her Majesty's Household."
(The Hon. and Learned Member then read the extract,

which stated that the office of Steward of her Majesty's
Household conferred by the Administration upon Lord
Roden, was a high and deserved compliment paid to his
private worth and public integrity.) It was an office
which the Cabinet might with justice offer to
such a man, and he with dignity accept it ; but
independent of everything there was due to the
noble individual, it was the more gratifying, as Lord
Roden stood at the head of his party, on which account he
had reason to expect, if not a right to claim, a mark
of honour from them, for it was through the agency
and instrumentality of that party the Ministry
was placed in its present position.—( Loud cheers.)
He indeed recognised that claim by placing the Noble
Lord at the head of her Majesty's Household. After that
let them pass sentence on the Marquis of Headfort.—
(Cheers. ) He could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that
be had no other motives in producing those instances but
a solicitude to meet him within the grounds of legitimate
debate, ho could assure him that he bad no sentiments of
personal disrelish towards him—( Loud laughter)— indeed,
its chief object was in adducing those instances merely to
show the Right Hon. Baronet the necessities to which he
would subject himself in case be should come into office.
—( Laughter and cheers.) He told us (proceeded the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman) that if he should
come into office again he should avoid all these
distinctions, but he should of necessity support
those Ly whom he had been supported. :,The Right Hon.
Baronet certainly cannot have forgotten the remarkable
epeech he delivered at the Goldsmith's Hall—Tailor's
Hall I should have said—(Laughter)—in which he as.
serted that he should recognise no distinction between
measures and men, and that his measures should
be tried by those who were to carry them
into effect ; but I will not press this topie
further, than to allude to the great and conspicuous fact
which is of such peculiar prominence—namely, that Lord
Roden, the Deputy Grand Master of the Orangemen, and
who has had the chief place in her Majesty's household, is
now your standard bearer in the House of Lords. I shall
next come to the alleged prevalence of what is called
agitation in Ireland ; bet I am happily relieved from
the necessity of expatiating at any length on this topic be-
cause the Recorder for Dublin has told us that there is in
reality no political agitation in Ireland, he said that the
agitation had been a complete failure ; in that case, then,
to whom are we indebted to its cessation. I think that he
could not have pronounced a greater panegyric upon
the administration of Lord Normanby than to say that there
is no political agitation in Ireland; but at the same
time I can assure him that the rumours respecting a change
of Government which may take place had produced no
very inconsiderable excitement in Ireland.---( Cheers.)
If you read the proceedings that had taken
place in the theatre in Hawkin-street—(Cheers and
laughter)—l cannot help thinking that a Meeting, which
was presided over by the Duke of Leinster, and which
was attended by gentleman of respectability from
all parts of the country, is not undeserving of con-
sideration.—( Cheers.) I shall now refer to the
administration of justice in Ireland. I ask in what
respect has it been impeded by the Government of the
Marquis of Normanby ? Why, Lord Normanby has made
justice cheap in Ireland, by a new system of forming juries,
and by appointing local solicitors under the Crown. If I
were asked by what act the Administration of the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth was distin-
guished when he was Home Secretary, I should say it was
by the introduction of the Jury Bill, which prevented
the packing of Juries in Crown cases in the Court of
Queen's Bench • the law was modified in Ireland, though
it was not extended to the Assize Courts, by Sir Michael
O'Loghlen, while in his late capacity ; and if men of all
parties concur in praising his impartiality and abilities as
a Judge, it is not reasonable to conclude that he com-

mittea any dereliction from his duties while Attorney-
General. He adopted the principle of the measure called
Peel's Bill, and since then no man has been excluded
from juries on account of politics or religion.—.( Cheers.)
Woo will say, if men are to be selected on account of their
politics and their religion, that the rule of Sir Michael
O'Loghlen should not be adopted?—(Cheers.) Sir, the
next point to which I will advert, is the appointment of
Solicitors in Ireland. Hon. Members are no doubt aware,
that formerly no solicitors were employed in Ireland
for the Crown. The result was, that witnesses were
examined without care, and a great number of par-
ties were acquitted in consequence. Lord Normanby
made a change in that respect. He appointed local soli-
citors, and Mr. Paulett, the assistant barrister, in making
those appointments, had acted with great discretion, and
for the good of his country ; for by the appointments he
had made, he had succeeded in putting down factious
fights through the aid of the country solicitors. lam
sorry to say that the county of Tipperary leads me:to the con-
sideration of the perpetration of crime in Ireland. No man will
deny that crimes of a most atrocious character have been
committed in Ireland, but is that any reason why they are
to be attributed to Lord Normanby ?—( Great cheering.)
Yet they have been attributed to him in no measured
terms.—(Cheers.) Is there a single Tory county—is
there a single Tory festival—is there a single Tory pub-
lication, or a Tory journal, or a Tory periodical, in which
it is not insinuated that the crimes which have been per-
petrated in Ireland are owing to the maladmi-
nistration of affairs in that country under the Go-
vernment of Lord Normanby ? The people of
England ought to know, however, that crimes
equally atrocious have taken place in this country. It is
rinfair on the part of men who ought to know better, and
who do know better, to lead the people of this country and
of Ireland into such errors ; and it is because I find the
House of Lords limiting the inquiry to 1835, that I think
it is the 3uty of every man in this House and the country
to remonstrate against it.—( Great cheering.) What is
the cause of crime in Ireland? I hold in my hand the
;itate Papers, in which is a letter from Brabazon to Crom-
wall, written in 1535. Let the gentlemen take that re-
ference, and put what construction they pleased upon it.
In that letter Brabazon stated " I conceive that if his

lighness were to send here a Deputy, who would adminis-

ter equal justice, we should soon see as great order esta-
blished in Ireland as in England. And I think the Com-
monalty be pure and good, and that the destruction of this
country be wholly owing to the oppression of tho
Lords, gentry, and great people." If you condemned
Drummond in 1838, why not condemn Brabazon in
1835 ? I vill not enter now into the details of crime in Ire-
land, because I see the Honourable Member for Kilmarnock
taking notes, and as perhaps he intends to do me the ho-
nour of answering me, I will put this question to him,
trusting that he will attend to what I state. You talk of
crime in Ireland, and you express your wonder at it. Now,
I ask, if any other country in the world had been governed
as Ireland has been, would not the results have been the
same.—(Great cheering.) I will take his own country.
That country in which men have made such progress to-
wards prosperity and learning—that country which possesses