The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-16 00:00:00

House of Commons.

" Can you state to the Committee how these persons
(rasantey of Limerick) support themselves?—They gene-
rally contrive to get what is called a quarter of ground for
planting potatoes ; in which they plant probably as much as
will ansl‘er their families for the season, if the weather turns
out favourable. I have often seen those people eating potatoes
and salt : and the manner in which I have seen them lying was
really shocking. I have seen, in many instances, a thing which
grows upon the bog, the sedge of the bog, strewed over the
corner of the habitation, and very little covering; and I found
them all lying together in that state that was really very
shocking."
Mr. Btackburne.—WhiteboyOutrage.—House of Commons,

1825.

" They continued to beat and belabour this unfortunate man
(King, who had lately taken a farm, of which another had been
dispossessed) for an hour and a half: they affected to give
him time to say his prayers, but they beat him in the way I
have described, and left him, supposing he was (lead ; that was
one of the worst outrages that has come to my knowledge ; and
the Committee will regard it as a singular circumstance, that
though the people of the country could have got rid of Keilley
(the servant of King, who was known to be charged with a
murder) by giving him up to the law, and having him sent to
Kerry, to stand his trial for murder, they preferred effecting
their object by doing justice, as they call it, themselves."
Another eminent author ( Mr. Arthur Young, says—
" Government offered very large rewards for informations,
which brought a few every year to the gallows without sny
radical cure for the evil. The reason why it was not more
effective was, the necessity of any persons who gave evidence
against them quitting their houses and country, and remaining
exposed to their resentment."
Was this state of things owing to overmuch liberality on
the part of the then Government,—(Load cheering.)
Was it attributable to the excessive clemency of
the Administration of those days ?—(Cheers. ) Was it
the consequence of too great favour lavished upon the
Roman Catholics ?,-( Cheers. ) Why, Sir. we have it on

rt•cord that Ireland during the whole 'Of that dreadful pe-
riod, except a few short glimpses under the Administration
of Lord Fitzwilliam, and when the advice of Mr. Grattan,
was acted upon in 1836 was governed by the severe and
~tern rule of those very men who now come forward and
complain of the outrages and horrors that have of late
disgraced Ireland—( Cheers)—as if, indeed, those horrid
and disgraceful occurrences were the exclusive production
of Lord Normanby's Government 1—( Loud cheers from
the Liberal side.) Thus either blinding themselves to the
truth, or wilfully concealing the fact, that that awful state of
things was the offspring of their own rule ; that that con-
dition of social misery was the result of a long series of
foregone opp-ession, whilst the intolerable tyranny of the
landlords of past times had been often denounced by the
men then in office, and yet no effectual remedy for their
cruelties was brought forward, and whilst also an intole-
rable faction had trampled over the feelings, the liberties,
and the interests of the great majority of the Irish people.
—( Loud cheering.) Sir, I have thought it necessary to
take this short retrospective view, that this House may not
suppose, should it agree to the sentiments already passed
by a majority in the House of Lords, that the present dis-
turbances and outrages in Ireland are the production of
of the present Government, or that it is that Government
which has rendered life and property insecure in that part
of the empire.—(Cheers.) It certainly is the object of
the opposite party to make an impression on this House
and the country that those outrages are quite new, as if
the like had never before been heard of. But I have al.
ready shown how easy it is to prove that the crimes and
social miseries now afflicting Ireland are the consequences
of former misrule, and that the state of the country was
formerly much worse than it is now. And therefore if a
motion similar to that passed in the other House should be
brought forward here, I shall protest, as Lord Normanby
did, against any inquiry which professes to limit its investi-
gation to the period that has elapsed since 1835, as being
entirely inadequate to the cases which it would include, and
as wholly incomplete with respect to its object. If there
should be an investigation at all it should proceed much
farther back. But, with respect to former times, what are
the facts? In 1524 and 1825 Committees of both Houses
of Parliament were appointed to inquire into the state of
Ireland, and the result of those inquiries has long since
been laid upon the table of this House. But then there
is another question—Lord Normanby undertook the Go-
vernment of Ireland in 1835. Lord Anglesey and Lord
Wellesley had been Lords Lieutenant before him. When
those Noble Lords entered upon their duties there were
evils in Ireland—evils of ancient growth—which might be

obviated indeed by wisdom and vigilance, but which it
would be impossible to remedy effectually within a few
years. But, Sir, there is another important feature in
the question. When the Government was aFsurrn din
1830, Ireland had been 4subjected, at various periods,
not only to moral and soc al evils, . but also
to a process of political agitation ; and it is a question
most materially affecting the Government of Ireland, most
materially affecting the first proceedings of the Marquis of
Anglesey, most materially affecting what was done under
(..ord Wellesley and Lord Normanby, that the history of
Ireland is peculiar in this one respect, which has been
ably stated by Lord Grenville in the House of Lords.
That Noble Lord said he disagreed in opinion with those
who reproached the Irish people for the feelings they
evinced for the concessions that had been made to them by

- - -
the Givernment of this country ; for, said Lord Grenville—
" There is one circumstance in the history of the Catholic
concessions which deserves to be particularly considered. From
the first concession, 1777, down to 1782, and thence to 1793,
they have all been made under circumstances of greater or less

political difficulty ; and though no one will say it was an un-
wise policy, when we were entangled with a civil war in
America, or when we were menaced with a foreign war with
France, to endeavour by conciliation and union to strengthen
our resources at home; yet it may have been suspected—most
unjustly I readily admit—that these concessions were not the
result of legislative wisdom, nor the offspring of justice and
liberality ; not the consequences of an enlarged and compre-
hensive policy, embracing the general welfare of the whole
empire; but a benefit extorted from us under the influence of
apprehension and danger."
—( floar, hear.) Another great authority—the late Mr.
Wilberforce—in adverting to the Catholic question, says—
" I can remember the recognition of Irish independ-
ence, and how those who had talked of it as almost trea-
son made no attempt to oppose it; while, if any objection
was suggested thei e was a general hush, and it was whispered
they have 40,000 volunteers in arms.' My experience in
Parliament and of the country convinces me that when some
alarm arises in Ireland--a war or an insurrection—everything
will be given up at once, as it then was, without those secu-
rities for ourselves or that benefit for Ireland, which might now
bo provided."
Mr. Wilberforce prophecied that the like would occur again,
and the sequel proved that lie was a true prophet. In 1782,
every thing was given up to the Volunteers from the eppre•
hensions of an insurrection. In 1793, that Franchise Bills,
which had before been contemptuously rejected, was carried
amidst apprehensions of a war with France. And what
was the issue of the Catholic question? Fox, Grattan,
Lord Plunkett, Canning, Brougham —ail these emi-
.

nent :r.en exerted their powerful and brilliant elo-
quence on behalf of the Catholics, but they exerted it
in vain. They made no impression towards effecting
an equality of privileges for our Roman Catholic brethren.
But justice was granted to them, as was justly remarked
by my Hon. Friend the Member for the University of
Oxford, on the first day of the Session, from fear—cer•
tainly it was gi anted to them under circumstances of poli-
tical difficulty, such as those mentioned by Lord Grenville,
and under the apprehension of those insurrections alluded
to by Mr. Wilberforce.—(Cheers.) With Lord Gren-
ville and Mr Wilberforce, then, Sir, I say, that those con-
cessions which were made to Ireland under circumstances so
suspicious, to say the least of them, could not call forth
much gratitude—( Cheers) —not strong feelings of content •
ment—(Cheers)—not those sentiments which a just
series of kind concessions would have been sure to pro-
duce.—( Cheers.) Therefore it has been that the people
of Ireland, seeing that it was only through a system of
intimidation they had been successful, determined to per-
severe in that system. And when Lord Anglesea under-
took the Government of Ireland, such was the state of
political agitation—such was the extent of social misery—
and such was the diversity of disorder, that in the opinion
of that Noble Marquis a severe system of coercio❑ was
necessary to aid the law in the repression of those evils.
The Cabinet of that day proposed that coercion law, and
I do not mean to deny that a part of the responsi-
bility of its introduction attaches to me.—( He,r.)
In agreeing to and proposing that law, I thought the time
was come when we ought to look more deeply into the
condition of Ireland, that we ought to consider whether we
could not lay the foundation of a better system, which a
mere temporary law of that kind could not do, and whether
it was not fit to consort the temper and wishes of the people
of Ireland, and whether the same freedom which we pos-
sess in our own country might not be as effi-
cacious in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, -hear.) Now, Sir,
with respect to the accusation that has been made, that ac-
cusation extends only to the period of the Government of
Lord Normanby, and it is to that period, and to that Govern.
ment only, therefore, I need direct attention, always being
ready to assume any responsibility to which I may be justly
liable.—(Hear.) Sir, I should remark, in stating the
condition of Ireland, when Lord Normanby undertook its
government, which was in April 1835, that those
evils which I have described in the state of the
country still existed.—( Hear.) It will appear from
the statements made lately, more especially from the
speech reported to be the speech of Lord Oxmantown, that
the character of the peasantry of Ireland had entirely
changed during the present Administration—that a spirit
of outrage had grown up among men who had formerly
been harmless. Now what is the description given by
Lord Oxmantown to Lord Wellesley ? I will read an
extract from Lord Wellesley's dispatch to Lord Melbourne,
April, 1834:
" A complete system of Legislation, with the most prompt,
vigorous, and severe Executive power, sworn, equipped, and
armed for all purposes of savage punishment, is established in
almost every district. On this subject I cannot express my
opinions more clearly, nor with more force nor justice, than
your Lordship will find employed in a letter addressed by Lord
Oxmantown, Lieutenant of the King's County to Mr. Littleton.
Lord Oxmantown truly observes, that the combination surpas-
ses the law in vigour, promptitude, and efficacy, and that it is
more safe to violate the law than than to obey it."
—( Hear.) Such, Sir, was the description given by Lord
Oxmantown in 1834, and in another place he says that
such is the miserable condition of the peasantry, that it is
impossible to form an adequate colic, ption of it, and mane
were Induced in consequence to go to America. Sir, I
have no doubt that Lord Oxmantown truly de-
scribed the state of things in 1834, but what
a monstrous injustice it really is to come down
to Parliament in 1839, and refer to outrages that existed
at that period and laying them to the fault of the Go-
vernment which only begun in 1835.—( Hear, hear )
Such, Sir, then was the state of the country, when Lord
Normanby undertook the administration of its affiirs
Now, S.r, there are certain charges made with respect to
it, which I shall notice in the first place before I describe
the general tenor of them.—(Hear, hear.) One of the
greatest evils existing in Ireland, which is de
scribed in all the evidence taken before the
Committees is the distrust of the people in the laws. It
is stated by Mr Leslie Foster, Mr. Justice Day, whose
opinions no person can question, that there is a getieral dis-
trust in the law. The Noble Lord quoted the following
passages:—
Evidence, House of Lords, 1825.
M.P.

John Leslie Foster, Esq.

" To what circumstances do you attribute the frequent dis-
turbances in Ireland of late years?—l think the proximate
cause is the extreme physical misery of the peasantry, coupled
with their liability to be called upon fur the payment of
different charges, which it is often perfectly impossible for
them to meet. The immediate cause of disturbance I con-
ceive to be the attempt to enforce these demands by the various
processes of the law. We are also to take into consideration
that they are living under institutions for which they have
neither much affection nor much respect. I have assigned what
I conceive to be the proximate causes of the disturbances. I
think the remote one is a radically vicious structure of society
which prevails in many parts of Ireland, and which has ori-
ginated in the events of Irish history; and whic•h may be in a
great measure palliated, but which would, I fear, be extremely
difficult now wholly to change."
Evidence, House of Commons. 1832, Matthew Singleton,Esq.,
Chief Magistrate of Police, Queen's County.
" There is scarcely an outrage committed relative to lands,
but what the people assign a cause for, if I may se that ex-
pression ; in some intances the unfortunate people do show
one. What are the Committee to understand by showing a
cause ?—Oppression, high, rents, low wages, and contracts
being broken. Do you give credence to all the oppressions
stated?—ln many cases Ido give credence. I have seen, and
I know land to be let one-third above its value."
Evidence, House of Commons, Mr. John Cahill, Surveyor and
Civil Engineer. _ _

" State generally what has beCiome of th^m ; (1,126 poor
people ejected). Do they continue wandering about ?--I have
known on one. estate which is near me, and which I had regu-
lated for a gentleman, there has been a great many of the old
people turned off that became beggars, and a good many of
them died of want. Do you mean they died from want ?—A
kind of distress ; being turned out of their houses, and many
of them became beggars and died; some of them are labouring
in different parts of the country, but the old people in general
died ; 1 can state to the Committee the number that died to
my own knowledge."
Mr. Justice Day.—House of Lords, 1825.

" Have the actual distuiloances in Ireland originrated in re-
ligious differences, or in what other causes ?"—" The recent
disturbances in Ireland have not had anything to do
religion." "In what causes did they originate, in tour opi-
nion ?".—." The poverty of the people, which exposes them to
the seductions of every felonious or turbulent leader ; the want
of employment ; the absence and non-residence of land-
lords, who might superintend, controul, and advise, the
want of education, which leaves them in a semi-barbarous
state, and incapable of judging for themselves. These are
some of the vicious and combining causes which may be enu-
merate 1. The severe and unconscionable rents too often
extracted from the peasantry ought not to be forgotten. There
was a system (now diminishing, thank God !) of sub-infeuda-
tion which, prevailed through Ireland, and which, after a suc-
cession of sub-letting, left scarcely anything to the miserable
occupying peasant to subsist upon. Every man, on this grada-
tion of evil and unfortunate system, must have a profit, save
the occupier, who pays all, is exposed to the distress of all and
starves himself. To this system are owing much of the suffer-
ings of the south of Ireland."
" I repeat that religion seems to me to have had little or no
effect in the south of Ireland in the late disturbances. No
doubt where religion mixes, it will exasperate and combine to a
fatal extent."
Dr. Doyle's Admonition.—House of Commons, 1832.
" He instructed the faithful, that whosoever assists, encour-
ages, aids, or abets the Whitefeet, Blackfeet, &c., by coin-
mand, advice, consent, by praise or flattery, becomes an accom-
plice in their guilt and a partner in their crimes."
Hovenden Stapleton, Esq. —House of Commons.
" What number of acres .to those persons (farmers connected
with Whitefeet) generally hold ?—One of them holds a consi-
derable nutnb.r ; I dare say about thirty or forty acres of land ;
and I think his brother holds a considerable deal more."
There are various instances mentioned in proof of
it, one of which I will advert to. A person bad com-
mitted a murder, which caused him to retire to ano-
ther part .f the country, where he was obnoxious, and the
people there would not give him up to justice, according
to tho course of law, but took the law into their own hands and
beat him so severely that his life was despaired of. An.
other instance occurred on the estate of the present Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland. He was prepossessed in favour of
the son of a small farmer On his return to Ireland, after
having been some time in this country, he missed the young
man, and upon his asking his father what had become
of him he was told that he was waylaid one evening on
coming home, struck severely with a stone, and after lin-
weeks died of the wound. The farmer added
gering a few
that he knew who was the perpetrator of the deed, upon
which Lord Fortescue said, " Why do you not bring him
then to justice ?" To which the farmer replied, "On no,
we the party well who has done it, and at a future
period we will do as much injury to them." Does not that,
I would ask, show that the people :of Ireland would resort