The Sun.
London, England, 1806-07-12 00:00:00

TRAINING BILL

, F,drl SP EATER moved the Order of the Day
for toe House resolving itself into a Committee on
the Training Bill. His Lordship observed, this Bill
was one to which he could scarcely anticipate any
obj&tion.. It was founded on . the exercise of his
Blajesty's undoqbted Prerogative a prerogative
which had:never been disputed—that of calling out
all those who' were able to bear arms for the defence
of the Country against an invading Enerny. The
only question that could arise wits as to;the means
of exercising that prerogative. Under the present.
circumstances of the Country, and looking, as we
must do, to the enormously increased poNver • of
France, it was evident that it was absolutely necessary
a large efficient force should be kept up ready for the
exigency of the .moment. The objet of the present
Bill was to train td arms 200,000 men, who might in.
AZZCZC of -- 7 rue in aid of the other force of the
Country. It was not to be said that because we had
already a large force, that Therefore it was unneces-
sary to resort to other measures; it should lie remem-
bered, that on our 'Vast extent of coast it was impos-
sible-strittly.to guard every point, it was therefore
the more necessary that there should be an efficient
force .ready to bear down upon any point where their
services might be most wanted. Provision was made
• in this Bill, that it should interfere as little as possible
With the varied pursuits of the people, or break in
mach upon their Convenience, and at the same time
mroption was given to those who might not wish,
for various' reasons, to be trained with the persons
an whom this Bill would generally operate, or who
could not go out to be trained without great injury
to their business, to pay instead a pecuniary fine.—
It was also provided that the number to be called
out should be ballotted for, which was thought, and
justly in his opinion, the fairest mode of chooSing
the perpns to be trained, thereby avoiding all par-
tiality. He was convinced, that when the Bill was
-thoroughly undeistood in the country, the voluntary
zeal and ardour of the people would render it un-
necessary to carry the compulsory provisions into
execution. The Bill might not be immediately
• operative, but he looked forward to the most bene-
ficial permanent effeets from such a system. 'lt waS
/lot merely at the exigency of the moment that he
looked to the Bill for aid to the country, but he con-
sidered it -as the means of -inspiring a military cha-
rd&er into a large Mass of the population of the
country, and thus, in. the midst of our commerce and
our wealth, giving us also military strength, and
enabling us to enter, fully prepared, into any future
war, with the moans of sending out of the country
-a large disposable force. He concluded by moving,'
that the House •.,hould resolve itself into a Committee
on the Bill.
-Lord Viscount MELVILLE said it was not 'his
wish to oppose any measure which His Majesty's
' Ministers considered necessary for the defence of the
Country, but he Must beg, leave to expres's
doubts as to the propriety or utility of the present
Bill.. In considering this • measure, he naturally
looked to the. present state of the,. Military :Force of
the Country, end when he found. that 'we had at
present a Volunteer Force of from 3 to 400,000 Men,
in addition to the Regular Army and Militia, he -was
induced to ask where was the necessity of this mea-
sure ? Vie had already a large force of a much su-
perior description to any that this Bill could give, a
force which had arisen out of the voluntary spirit, the
seal and the ardour of the country, a force, in con-

templating which everyman might sleep sound in
1*; bed, and consider the country secure. Why
• then resort to compulsory Means, when we had al-
ready a sufficient force, and when the country was
already secure ? To resort now to such a Bill .as the •
.present, would tend to dishearten and discourage
that vojuntary force, to whom the country were so
much indebted, by telling them that they were of
little,use, that, notwithstanding all their zeal and ar-
dour, it was still necessary to resort to compulsory
'means to enstire the security ofthe country, He did not
mean to insinuate that Noble Lords on the other side
had any wish or intention to discourage
.the.
teers ; but declarations' had been made, which had
'gone forth to the country, and which certainly tend-

-, ..
ed to dam 'the ardour and the spirit of those who I
had so loyally an.dsopatriatiCally stepped forward i 4
the hour of danger to take up. arms 'in the defenee
of the COuntry. HoW Was such a force as the pre:- i
sent to be properly disciplined ? bow was it to •be
officered ? No means were pointed out-by, which such 1
a force was to be rendered really efficient. , A greet
-expellee would be incurred in carrying the provisions 1
of the Bill into execution—air expellee ibr which • he.
had not the least doubt that 200,000 Volunteers
might be provided, properly Rrmed, accoutred, cloth- t,
ed,. and officered ; d force,which, if was needless to
say, would be ot a much superior description 'to that
which would arise out of the present Bill. There
was; besides,' another obje&ion to the present Mea- !
sure, arising out . of a Bill of a similar nature brought
forward at the comthencement 0f..-he War; in which '.
it was provided, that if a number of Volunteers came .
forward, equal- to six times the number of the Mili-
tia,' the comPolsory prelision of training shoo-411ot i„
be resorted to. Colisiderably.more than that &um,
ber of Volunteers didcoMe forward, and now, not-
withstanding that, a new Bill Was brought in, to
carry into execution :a compulsory Mode of training,,
and Chits to sobstitute a force which was notltnown,
nor never had existed in the Country; for one which
had been already tPied and found .efficient. He Was
thoroughly convinced that nothing had 'tended in a
greater degree to silence the boastings of theEneniy,
and show him the' futility :of his schemes against
this COuntry, than . that zeal and patriotiSin Viiieli
had been so , eminently evinced by. the Volun- ,
teers ; and he appealed -upon this sUbjea.to .a - No-
ble
Lord (Moira) on. the other• side' of the House,
who, when commanding in Scotland, . spoke in the
highest -terms of the quality and --efficiency of that
description of force: If, then,.as he contended, the '
Volunteers were an efficient force, where was the
necessity of resorting to a measure for training a large
portion of , the population of the. Cotintry to arrris ?
The Volunteers were, in faa, the trained popUlation,
of the Country, and trained in 'a manner greatly su-
perior to the training which would be carried into .
effea under this Bit). He agreed in the policy train-
ingof , .
yonng men to arms, and making it a part of their
education; but'he thought it would be much better
to give up the present Bill, which could not, at -any
rate, be carried. into effea- for -some time to come,
and-next Session a Bill might be braught in with
provisions More adequate to the intended objea.
The Earl of MOIRA said, the Noble Viscount
agreed in, the necessity of having alarge .efficient '.
force under the present circumstances of the Coun-
try ; the only difference of opinion between them was •
as to the quality of that force. He had beenappeal.,
ed'to by the Noble Viscount with respea to, an opi-
nion formerly uttered by him., as to the efficiency of
the Volunteer Force.of Scotland, and to that opinion.
he still adhered. At the time. he commanded in Scot-
land,' he not only undertbok the detence of that Coun-
try, bat also Of the Northern parts of England, and
had so high an, opinion ._of. the .Voluntedr Force,
that he would have led them . on , with_ the utmost
confidence against 'an invading enemy. •It was ill '.
that confidence in -the Volunteers that he parted__
with the Regular Troops under his command; who
. were thereby rendered disposable for the service of
the Country in other quarters. This was not an
overweening confidence, but a confidence founded
upon an cxperience Of the efficiency of the Voltin.:
teer Force---a confidence which.he still maintained;
nor would he hesitate to lead on such 'a three-against
any veteran army 'of France . which could effect a
landing here. The Noble Viscount' had contended
that our present force was sufficient for our defence—,
this argument might be good, if we could know at
what point an Enemy might attempt to effect a land-
ing,
or that he would only make the attempt at one
point ; but with our vast extent of coast this was.ob-
vionsly impossible, and therefore it became necessary
to have a large efficient force in the Country, ready for
the exigency of the moment. , He admitted that the
Volunteers' were a much superior description of
force: . to the force which Could be procured under
the present Bill ; but it was not intended, as the No-
ble Viscount had said, tn substitute this force for the
Volunteers, but (to. bring it iniaid . of theM., The
Noble ViF,count had talked of expressionS which had
been used, tending to discourage and dishearten the
Volunteers ; but he disclaimed any such intention
in any of his Colleagues in office, and maintained
that what had been alluded to, had been invidiously
misrepresented.- Our, present' force, it was said;
was-sufficient for the defence of-the country ; but
were they to look only to the defenceof our coast,
without considering the medesadoptedby the enemy
of attacking the mources of our commerce and our
prosperityin other quarters'? No, he looked forward
to a period when, if the war continued., we:might, by
means of our Volunteer FOrce,. and the term raised
under this Bill at home, be enabled to serid every
Battalion Of regular Trobps ;out of -.the country, to.
combat the EneMy in thoSe quarters where they were
.attacking our resources and our interests.; Were an.
, Enemy then to laud in-this Country, he would lead
.on a Volunteer Army against them with the Utmost
.confidence. .' It would be wise policy, in such a si-
tuation, not to risk a battle. without absolute. neces--
, sity, but in the meati time the - peasantry trained
under this Bill might be twist advantageously
,
• em-
ployed in firing from behind hedges and banks. upon
the columns of the Enemy; who,, unable to send
out 'detachments, and perpetually harassed by 'this
mode of attack, would ultimately be overwhelmed'
and-completely- defeated. He could not conceive by
. what mode of calcination the Noble Viscoun t had dis-
' covered that''2oo,oooVolunteerS could be raised for
, the same epence as w9uldlle incurred under the pre-
sent. Bill. How those 200,000 Volunteers were to be
raised, it was beyond his comprehension to discover.
, As to the objeaion, that there was no provision for offi-
cering the men trained under thiS Bill, it was not in-.
tended to officer them until the exigency of the mo-
ment Might: require it, but merely to. train them. to
' the use. of arms,, that. in ' case of emergency they
• might be employed with effea a7ainst an enemy;
and 'in aid of the VolonteerS. le- considered the
• Bill to be well calculated for the-purposes which he
had mentioned, and its'provisions to be well adapted
to secure the objeas intended to be effe&dd. '
. . The Earl of IVESTMOR.4AND contended, that.
'the Bill imposed a heavy burden upon the country
without the probability of derivingfrom it any Ade-
quate'advantage. There were, he believed, 15,000
pariShes, and how were the Men in, these different
parishes to be trained ?, How many .serjeants and
(`constables must there be ? How many drums and'
files"? What was to be done with the arms ? Were

the serjeants to travel in postLchaises or balloons ?
Thlre appeared toihim to be no adequate .provision
for .carrying.the,objed of the-Bill into effect.
Bill, besides, threw slur,upon the :Volunteers, by
zleclaring that \thehr. services..,were..inadequate— It'
had been said, that opinions given respecting the
Volunteers had been, misrepresented ;. but was it
meant to be-stated that the. N,.ewspapers.and -all
the Short=hand Writers hnd been bribed to circulate
a thkrepresehtation-through the Country ? Were
not other measures,- favourable to the "Volunteers,
suggested by Majesty's Servants through the
mouth of Nis Majesty? •
• Lord. GREiwILLE spoke to order. The Noble
Lord was, he conceived, irregular in diScussing
Mons uttered in another place, and certainly in men-
tioning His Majesty.in. the 'way he had just clone.
.774 e Dirt of WESTMORLAND said, if the ex-
pression he had used was improper, he would say,
measures that had been announced by His Majesty
through the mouths of his servant 3.
Lord GIItNVILLE again. spoke to order, declaring
it disorderly for any Noble Person to say that his
Majesty spoke through the mouth of any Member
of Pai-liament.

The Earl of WESTMORLAND apologized for having
used the name of his Majesty in any. way that was
conceived impreper, but contended that in discussing
the opinions used in another place, he had only done
what had been-done before in the. course of the de-
bme. His Lordship resumed his arguments against
the Bill; which he contended was, not calculated to
produce any advantage to the Country..
Lord SIDMO UTH defended the Bill, which he
contended was not near so rigorous .in its provisions
as the. Bill of a similar deSCription brOught'forward
when the Noble Lord (Westmorland) and himself
were in Administration. The Objeit of the Bill was'
to raise a force which Might be yendered essentially
useful, 'either-by being incorporated with the Regu-
lars or the Militia, or in other modes, in the event
ofan attempt on the part of the Enemy. It had been
truly said, by a great and eminent Charaaer, that we
might have in this, Country what an Enemy could
not bring with him—an armed People, whom- no',
Enemy could conquer: It was in this view that the
BilLwas essentially important, as contributing ma- •
terially to that ,great .object. It had been insinuate-el
by the Noble ViscOnnt (Melville) that this measure
was a breach of faith with the People, inasmuch 'as,
by the last Training. Bill, compulsory measures were
not to be adopted if Volunteers,to 4 certain 'extent
carne forward. That Bill, however, only authorized
,His Majesty to suspend, in 'that event, the 'operation
of tl* compulsory Clauses; but did not, nor cOtild,
affea His Majesty's prerontive to call out the Peo-
ple whenever • necessa4r: - The present • measure
was redered necessary, in order to rakse:a force.
'efficient for 't he purposes for, which it 'was -*anted,
and which would come in aid a the Voltinteers;
. Lord ELDON declared, that no man more highly,
approved than, he had done, aiia that none could at
this. moment be more firmly' convinced than he was,
-of the. propriety and merits of the military meaSttres
•brought forward by 'the Noble. Viscount who sPoke
last. 'The measures Of the Ministry who:succeeded
'the Noble Viscount, at tale., head of Whom was
that.great man whose loss was now so justly de-
-plored; he
.was alsosonvinced were the best which
could be'rdsorted, to in the situation in which the
• country was nlaced.: These measures had also been
approyed .of by. the Noble Viseotnit; :and. he
(Lord EICIOn) was, only afraid. the. Noble Vis Count
':was not entirely aware of the nature of the present
measure, introduced by those with whom he now
acted, who had so loudly decried the meaSures_of
the Noble Visconnt and of his successor, its being ,
tally weak and inefficient. The opinions of Ole pre-
sent Government,. as to, the Volunteer Force of the
Country,
.it was not his wish to judge 'of from any
representations-whia had taken place out of the
House.: He Must' therefore colleEt it frorn.*hat,he‘
~should hear their Lordships say in their places this
rlightr .He "hinst, hOWever, declare,
,that, in • his
opinion, to Olen) this Country 'was not indebted
alone for Safety-from a foreign foe, bui that tothe.ir
being collected together at the periOd When-they
were first embodied, was owing the existence at this
Moment of the Conititution. The- present-Bill, cir
any other which could have any tendency :to degrade .
them, Or to +ender their-services less beneficial, he
should never approve of. He alluded to the promises
of Ministe7rs to bring forward a Complete Military
System, not a piece 'here and a piece there—but
contended, that in this they had completely broken
their word, and , that, after an interval of some
months, first one part, of their system, and now at
the distance of another month another part of their
system had been introduced.

Lord GRENVILLE,-after the able statements in
suppbrt of the measure Made by his Noble Friends
near him, should not have thought it necessary to.
Say a word on'the subject, -had it not
,been for the
observations of the Learned Lord' who spoke last.
For the Right Honourable- Gentleman' now no
more,' to whom the Noble and- • Learned Lord had
alluded, no person could feel more strongly than
be did, He had been his dearest friend, and When,
he ,had differed.. from hidr it was ''with -sincere re
gret; but, at the game time, he could not sacrifice
'to-hub his judgment and every idea of propriety.
With respet to the opinions of His Majesty's
nistera as to the Volnnteers, every individual Mem-
ber of Administration in this House knew that there
th
was" but one opinion aong them. This 'Opinibn, ha
de:Sired might ColleCted, not-from.their words-but
from their conduct.. Ord they not been among the
first not merely to countenance and encourage, but
themselvek to 'a part, in that service ?‘ And-
could it be sUPposed that they . ‘vished to, do any,
thing which should go to degrade, and insult them-
'selves and their comrades 'and companions in arms
For the Government collectively, too, he could
declare, that so far from degrading, it was their
wish to , honour and prote6t 'the Volunteers—to
protea them more particularly against 'that foul
sinuation 'Which had been (brown out against t4.4em,
that they had so little patriotism as to be deterred,bys
misrepresentations and misconceptions, from per-
forming their duty to their country. if, however,
by saving the country, the Noble and Learned Lord
tneatitthqd there was .eny dread but that for their
existence our country was at present in dang 4
from 'its internal enumies, he 'could by no means
.follow, him that length. He was convinced, if there
were among ourselves any enemies to tie. c,':-nstKg
Lion of this country,. the occurrences, of the three
last years must have peen more than snai*at to

. ,
hrlng them back-to the path of lovalty. Lord-
ship then proceeded to shew that the present was oot
a separate measure, but a part of the .General
nary System which the present 'Government had re-
solved adopt,, and which, the Noble and Learned
Lord could hardly have expeeted',to 'see compre-
hended in one Bill. First, they had got" rid of One
measure which- was universally acknowledged to
btirdensome and unjust in itself,which had been un-
produeitive, and at the same time operated A. a draw-
back on the ordinary recruitin}4. -They-then, pr -
ceeded to introduce a limited endurance of service,
with the double view of incre:!sing the number, and
of introducing into the Army a new ordet, superior
in -zeal and energy, as superior in, knowledge.,
The Voltinteer -Force "Still existed,. and now the
present Bill was. brought in for the purpose _ cif
forming a force in addition to it, 'by which, in time,
the whole Country should be instrated in the use
of arms. fle.informcd the Noi)le,L. ,o,l7(mmor-
land) that it il'as.the intention.of the pitsent
,vernment to' disperse (200,000estand.of artrt aritong
thepe,ppleof the Conntry ; • and ScY for • were they
from-being afraid of this, that they even iniended--,
to instruct them how to nse thorn. Neither should
they think it necessary to have them deposited
in some castle or fortress; but should think, that is
enabling'every man to become habituated toalte Uso'
°farms, and the People thus to become, an Armed
People, while they in no wise endangered the peaal
.of the Country at home, they rendered it hay:liner:
able against every foreign attack. • • '
Lord HA WEESBUfiYeatpred into along inveS-
tigation- of the different 'measures alluded to by the
Roble Lord, and partieul arly of the, advant ageS
voluntary services which, he Was convinced, would
be great lyaffeaed by the present measure --a Ineasuie
which, in his opinion, would he equally enensttve,
and by nomeans so efficient, as the voluntary force.
Uci, :should not, however, press-the matter to a

uestion.
Earl WESTMOIfLAND and Lord-G-gmcv IL /.
ally explained.

Earl ROSSLII.VsheWed that the Volunteer service
could not at all be alfeCted by 'the pft=.'Sellt measure,
which was not a substitute for, but an addition to, the
Volunteer System. -lie took .a view of the dii-Terent
immunities, such as exemption from ballot for the
Militia, Army of Reserve; &c. which had been for-
merly. held out to them, and maintained, that iu
stead of -being degraded, as it had.been terrnz!d, by
this Bill, it also, went to encourage the enteringiuto
the Volunteer Corps,',by exempting all' such from
-the provisions of the Bill. He 'asked, too, if it
could be contended, that the same number
.of Vo-
lunteers would continue, having nothing but
.the
, August establishment, while the contributions -were-
discontinued .He adverted to' what bgd fallen front
the Learned Lord (Elderl); as to the Volunteers be-
ing sayiours of, the Constitution, and trusttxl it
could not even be insinuated that such an idea was
at all well founded, in the present state of the
Country.
Lord ELDON, in explanation, declared, that be
had .never. either insinuated or drear:it of such a thine-.
He had simply alluded to the. Volunteers at the time-
of their formation, and had attributed to them, he
was convinced correCtly, that this Country had
.escaped those destructive and desolating principles by
I which the liberties of the rest of Europe had been
overturned. -

The Question was then pu
t,..theHouse.went in-
to a Committee, in which not a single Amendment
was made, and the Bill was reperted.
The Militia Ballot Snspension Bill also went thro'
a Committee, and was reported without any Amend-
ment. The West India Intercourse Bill Was read a
second time,- and ordered to be committed. , The
other Bills on ;the Table wcre fw-warded.
Adjourned at half fdit -11 o'clock,. till to -morrnw-
(this.day).

• " HOUSE OF COMMONS.
FRIDAY, 41.TLY
Mr. VANSITTART brought in a Bill for granting

the Surplus of the Conseil-dated Fund for 'the service
of the year. Read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time to-morrow-
The Newfoundland Fish Bounty Bill, the Qua-
rantine Bill, arid the Exchequer Bills Bill, were read
a third time and passed; also-the Irish Quit-tent. Bili.
The London Additional Force Bill, and Lord Ro&-
ney's Annuity Bill, were read a second. time, find de.
tiered to be . committed to-morrow; and also, the
Seamans' A 116 wance Bill. '
The Sugar Bounty Bill, and the \*Varehousing- Bill,
went through a Committee ; the 'Reports, to be
re-
ceived to-morrow ; also the French Wine Importa-
timi 1311.1, the Silk,Bounty Bill, and the Malta Trade
Bill. •

.. .
- .3.‘. kilo B I-1 ousE breughtup the Report of the Selel
CommitteeOn the InSolrent Debtors' Bill 5. wha
was 'ordered to be taken into farther consideratiott ou
-Monday. • . -.--- • , s . ,
On the Motion of Lord PRIMROSE it was ordered
that the Coiiinntuce appointed to examine the Jolla
Account-Of Great Britain and Ireland have to
report.from time to time. '• .
Lord,PrtimitosE'r then brought up a .Report fro.:3
this committee; which was, ordered to be printed.
On the Motion of Lord PRDIROSZ it was orderqi
that there be.-laid before the House ..AcCoun's of ail
Payments made on. the Joint. Account of Great Bri-
tain anti: Ireland in the yearS 1901, 2,3, 4, a.ld 5. •
MALI • isi Li,. .
.
. Mr.. VA NSITTART 'IIIaCCI, . that the .coma it lien't
of the Malt Bill be postponed. till Monday, for, ti,c
purpose of prepring -game Clauses which aver.; to
be introduced in.the Committee..
Mr. TAKER represented' the inconvenience .that
arose fromfromputputting-offthe commitment, after it was
solemnly'fixed. - •
Mr, T. JONES spoketo the same effea. The•de-'
lay.was tCg-reat inconvenience to the Miltters.
Mr. V ANSITTART stared, that the Maltsters had
already the benefit of tile Ad by a Treasury Order.
• Mr. YorE ..K could not 'comprehend how :a Tha-
isilrTOrder, could dispense with- an ACt: of Parlia-
ment. . .
' Mr. VANSITTAR.;r ;said, Treasury Orders of:
kind. had betin very freqUently granted. The of,
in question had been- cc:Mmunicated to the, 110 tle,
and had recek ed a virtual sanction.
, Mr. PLOM?,II said, usage-was no juStificatipa .)t I.e
breach of the law—usage hat been. -rormerly ~,eiere-
d in defence. of General W:!rrAnts.
- In-answer to a question from Mr. Baker, .Mr.
'. ANSritART stated, that it-was not intanded .to al-

1

ter the law relative to the length of time for wet-
ting Malt.
-After a few observations from Sir C. Price, the
•
second reading was fixed for Monday.