The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-05 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 5, 1830.

pated, in common with other individuals, whom, he re-
gretted to say, were not so well able to bear against them
as himseli; but, deeply commiserating, as he did, those
distresses, he (the Noble Lord), before acquiescing in the
Amendment which hail been proposed by the Noble
Earl who had just sat down, felt that he should not
be doing his duty were he not to call their Lordship's
attention to the other relations of the country ; and he
trusted that their Lordships would not think so lightly
of those relations as altogether to shut their eyes to
them. With respect to the termination of the war
betwt ea Turkey and Russia, he certainly was
not disappointed, but is his opinion it was every thing
but satisfactory. The history of the last 130 years shows,
that in all wars the Turk had come out of the
contest with a loss of territory, and therefore he never
could have advocated a policy that would have given a sanc-
tion to the late war. He was confident that the Porte
must submit to unconditional submission. He (Lord
Godsrich) did net wish to see the Sultan crushed ; per-
haps he might not be a friend to this country, but whe-
ther he might or might not, the time may come when
it would be as well for the policy of the country to
have him for an ally. He approved of the plan of
forming Greece into a Monarchical Government; any
form of Governmenment would be better this
leaving that unhappy isle to the winds and wave". I❑
alluding to Portugal, the Noble Lori said be had
no doubt this country would be called upon to recog-
nise Don Miguel as the Sovereign of that eJuntry—
but he did hope, should suck an event take place, that
Ministers would take especial care to protect the interests
and welfare of those brave men who had sought
refuge in England, and that a treaty should be en-
tered into, whereby they could with safety retur■
to their native country. The Noble Lord then, in allu-
sion to the free trade system, said, that in all the conver-
sations which he had ever had upon that topic, and that
too with many what he conceived well-informed indivi-
duals, he had never been able to extract from them any
information respecting what free trade really was; and
he firmly believed that, when they same to discuss the
subject in the House, they would he as much in the
dark as ever. It had been said that we had departed
from the wisdom of our ancestors by allowing the
country to be inundated with foreign goods. But ke be-
lieved the fact was, that our ancestors, on all occasions
when they had the opportunity, had nearly followed in the
same track. The Noble Earl had asked bow we could raise
the same money from taxes now when so few taxable com-
modities are consumed ; but the truth was, after all the
reductions which had takes place iu many of the taxes
from 1823 to 182'7, which amounted to nine millions,
in comparison with the taxes levied in 1822 and 1823,
the total loss of income to the revenue did not amount to
above one million. Whence did this very trifling dif-
ference arise? Why, from the increased consumption
of taxable commodities. It was quite clear, therefore,
that the people consumed niece now than they ❑sed to
do. The Noble Lord consequently trusted that when the

House came to consider this and other matters that their
time should not be occupied in mere declamation, and
that from whatever causes the distresses of the country
had originated it would be ascertained that they could
not be attributed to the circumstance to which he had
previously alluded. The Noble Lord, in conclusion, re-
peated that he, in common with every other individual,
he believed, felt the present pressure, and that it was
the duty of every man to do all he could do to alleviate it.
For his part his sole object was to do the best he
could to aid any set of men whom he conscientiously
thought were capable of managing the affairs of the country.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that he was sorry to
intrude himself at the present mornen► on the attention of
the House, but it might he in the recollection of some of
the Noble Lords present who heard him on a former occa-
sion, that he had then stated that the Wool Trade in par-
ticular was not protected in the same ratio as other pro-
duce. He had then said, and he sow repeated it, that
we had ruined the wool-grower. lhe Noble Lord who
had just sat down could not be expected to recollect what
he (the Noble Duke) had said en that occasion with re-
spect to this subject, because, in fact, he did not appear
to recollect what he himself had then said with respect to
that important branch of our commerce. The wool-
grower at the present moment had the proceeds of three
years' produce on his hand, for which, under the existing
state of things, he could find no market. But it was not
the wool-grower alone, the farmer, the manufacturer, and
the landholder, were all involved in the same destiny—an,
iu fact, in the verge of ruin. Let any man who pays
any attention to the subject look around him, and what is
the result with regard to the working classes ? Why,
that almost the whole of that most industrious portion of
the community del end, at the present moment, upon the
miserable pittance of a parish overseer; and were the
Noble Lords under these circumstances, to tell the yeomen
of England that there was so remedy. It was owing to
these grounds that he, the Noble Duke, would support
the amendment of the Noble Earl, and, he trusted, in
doing that, he would not be conceived guilty of assaulting
the administration, a tone which had been made use of by
two Noble Lords who spoke last.
The Earl of CARNARVON was astonished, whilst the
whole nation, from one extremity to the other, rang with
the distresses of the country, to hear such cold-blooded
allusione as had this night been merle to those distree:es.
It would appear that certain Noble Lords had come het e,
not to consider what measures should be adopted to re-
medy those evils, but to amuse each other with the chi-
meras which existed in each other's brains. They Bey
that they wish they could suggest any remedy, but they
can suggest none; they hold out no hope ; they wish that
the system should be adhered to which has been pursued
for so many years, and which only has been attended by
increasing difficulties and more general distress. That
the country was is a moat unexampled state of suffering,
no one would attempt to deny, and it appealed to him
(the Noble Lord) that, without attempting to go further
into the inquiry, one of the ruling causes of th it distress
was the following of those counsels which inculcated pa-
tience and hope, but for which there appeared no other
remedy, at least no other remedy had as yet been proposed.
He (the Earl of Carnarvo❑) was disposed to give al due
weight to the considerations which arose out of the state
of the season. When he was sowing down to that House
in the evening this important subject had forced it'elf
upon hie consideration, and he should probably he obliged
to attend to it on his way home after the conclusion of the
present debate. But he could not sit in that House
as an independent Member of the Legislature, and
effect to believe, or hope to persuade others
to believe, that the state of the past season had any-
thimg to do in the production of the distresses under
which the country was labouring. The suonner had, it
was true, been a little wet, but the rain af last summer
was in quantity pretty much about the same as it had ever
been upon such occasions at all corresponding time within
his memory, and he did not think that its quality hail
been such as to produce any of the calamities which at
present oppressed every class of the community. It was
not the wetness of the season in general, not the badness of
the summer in particular, which produced any pert of these
calamities; they were attributable to another and a very
different cause. That this was so might be easily enough
proved in other ways. But he should, for that purpose,
content himself at present with stating a circumstance
which would alone be sufficient to show how false and
absurd was all the reasoning which attributed the pre-
sent distress of the country to the inclemency of the
weather, and which would at once put un end to all
that argument. Their Lordships doubtless would recol-
lect the years 1816 and 1817, which particularly to-
wards the ends of those years, were the most severe that
lie had ever experie❑ced. If, therefore, the nature of grain
had not been changed altogether, and that article had not
acquired an extraordinary potency in the present season,
it was quite clear that in 1818 we ought to have been in

greater, or at least equal, distress to tb.rt which we were
suffering at present. But this was to far from being the
case that the year 1818 was one of those periods in which
the prosperity of the country was considered as progres-
s;vely increasing. That year was, in fact, looked upon
as one of those cases which marked and adorned the de-
scent of our agricultural, commercial, and manufacturing
distress. Would any Noble Loid in that House rise up
and say, that such a description as that which he had
given of the year 1818 would suit the year 1830 ? Was
there any Noble Lord to say that the state of the agricul-
tural, commercial, and manufacturing interests presented
at present a bright or brightening prospect? No Noble
Lord would, he believed, be found to makesuch an assertion,
But the blouse may derive some instruction as to the cause
of the very different states of the country in 1818 and
1830, by looking a little wore fully into the different eiry

cumstanees of the two periods, and, as the rain had been
about the same in both cases, they would probably seek
for some more satisfactory cause of the present distress
than the wetness of the last summer. Now, what were
the circumstances of the year ISIS? The two seasons
which preceded that year were so severe that the Govern-
ment became alarmed at the extent and consequences of its
Own operations, and before the end of the year 1817
seven millions of Exchequer-bills were issued, for the ex-
press purpose of affording some relief to the public dis-
tress. Three millions of small notes were issued by the
Bank of England at the same time and for the some pur-
pose, and a corresponding increase of the notes of private
bankers accompanied the increased circulation which had
proceeded from the two other sources which he mentioned.
These issues, by increasing the quantity of the currency,
served to counteract the effect of two bad seasons follow-
ing each other in immediate succession, and converted (if
he might so express himself) the badness of the seasons
from a cause of national calamity into a means of increas-
ing the public prosperity. This plain fact being beyond
all doubt, he (the Earl of Carnarvon) should ask, was it
not in itself a sufficient answer to all the arguments which
had been derived by the framers of the speech from the
wetness of the last season. He could not help expressing
Iris astonishment that such an argument should have been
at all resorted to, and that this great subject, whichaffected
the happiness, the health, and the very existence of mil-
Ilbna of the people of this country, should hare been dis-
cussed by the introduction of topics more fit to enter into a
discussion about the breeding of pheasants.—(Laughter.)
The Noble Viscount near him (Lord Goderich) said
that he should vote against inquiry, because, as the Noble
Viscount observed, all inquiry into the causes of the pre•
sent distress must turn out in the end to have b en per-
fectly illusory. Illusory such inquiry most certainly would
Ise if that House confessed that they participated in the
incapacity which the King's Ministers had not been ashamed
to avow..illusoly every inquiry would certainly be if that
House should tell the country that the ravages which dis-
tress was making in every part of the nation were of so
desperate a character that they could neither be cured nor
alleviated—illusory must every inquiry be if their Lord-
ships united upon this occasion with a Ministry, who
feared not, in the face of a suffering nation crying out fir
relief, to tell them that their miseries could neither be re-
moved nor mitigated. The Ministers who made such a
declaration were not the Ministers who could rescue the
country from its present perils. But what must he the
result of the conduct which Ministers adopted. That far
the purpose of precut ing a certain facility in the opera-
tions of Government they will continue to inflict upon the
nation the evils which were already almost insupportable,
whilst many persons, for the settee cause, to prevent em-
berrassments to Government, hesitate to express openly
the opinions which they entertain upon the state and pros-
pects of the country. He (the Earl of Carnarvon) did
not, of course, mean to intimate that any Member of that
House would conceal his opinions is the manner which he
stated, and he only alluded to persons out of doors, who,
from deference to one political leader or another, suppressed
their discontent, in the hope that the hand of Govern-
ment would be held out to relieve the country from the
intolerable pressure of the distresses under which it laboured
at present. These distresses were attributed, falsely and
improperly attributed, to temporary causes in the Speech
which had proceeded from the Throne. He (the Earl of
Carnarvon) contended that they proceeded front the altera-
tions which had been made in the currency of the coun-
try. That such effects tnay be expected to follow from
this cause could he easily seen by a consideration of the
consequences which had invariably followed any measures
affecting the amount of the currency in every country of
the world, and at all periods of time. The effects of the
contraction of the circulation of this country were precisely
of the same nature as those which had been invariably
produced in other countries and times by measures of the
same kind. The effect was in all cases the same, deep and
general distress. If he should be asked how to reconcile
with this position the fact that the amount of the pre-
cious metals had at some former period been diminished
without leading to such disasters as the country was at
present ailicted with, he should say that a substitute of
another kind had been provided upon those occasions,
and that the lesser quantity of circulating medium was ade-
quate to the limited extent of the commercial, agricultural,
and manufactering operations, whilst lately the amount of
the currency was diminished, whilst the commercial, agri-
cultural, and manufacturing operatives increased in a ten-
fold proportion beyond what had previously existed in any
part of our history. It was even a fact that all the gold
which we could now bring in the market of this country
at any price at which it could circulate here, would not
be sufficient to maintain the transactions which had been
produced by the increased spirit of enterprise which per-
vaded every department of business at the present time.—
But a few plain facts were upon such a case of more im-
portance than any subtleties of reasoning. Under a dif-
ferent circulation from tl e present the country had at-
tained and supported a high state of prosperity, and it
was because the circulation was no longer adequate to the
demands and necessities of the resew. state of the country
that every order of society found their operations ember-
raised, and their transactions involved in confusion and
distress. If that House and the Legislature were to wit
until the difficulties of the country should reach a settled
and quiescent point, that point of !settlement and quies-
cence would, as he thought, be one of comparative na-
tional poverty and depreciation. Many of their Lordships
had already reduced their incomes front twenty to thirty
per cent., and it was perhaps the intention of the
Government to take no steps for the relief of the public
distresses until the rents should have been made to un-
dergo another reduction to the same extent. But how, in
the meantime, Were they to maintain a famishing popula-
tion, who incessantly amour for bread ?_-(Hear, hear,
hear.) The currency of a country supplied the means
by which its agricultural, commercial, and manufactur-
ing interests were to be supported. It was she great
tmechine by which all the operations of society were to be
effected, and it could not be constructed upon too large
and extensive a plan if the commerce, the agriculture, and
the manufacture of the country, be extended in the same
degree, whilst every contraction of the currency must be
followed by a contraction in every operation of society,
and, consequently, by pressure affecting them all. He
(the Earl of Carnarvon) never thought that a gold standard
of currency could be maintained without depreciation.
He knew not why Ministers had adopted such a standard,
er why having adopted it, they continued to maintain it
with such obstinacy. A book had been written in for-
mer times upon the subject of political economy by a
great statesman, who flourished when this subject was sup-
posed not to be so well understood as it was at present.—
Toedxfili:a eicdtulyai,
writer w to whom he had adverted had, hoever,stated,
that where the transactions of a country were large its
currency ought to be in god, and that the standard of a
country whose transactions were small ought to be silver.
Thus intimating a general principle which was perfectly
sound, namely, that the currency of every country ought
to becommensurete with its transactions. The truth of the
principle admitted of an easy illustration front the business
of common life. A man whose expenditure was trifling
would, on going front home, put a few shillings in his
pocket in order to meet the slight necessities which might
arise for the use of a circulating medium. If his dealings
were a little more extensive he would put in his pocket a
few sovereiges. But if his transactions should be consi-
derable, he would be obliged to have recourse to a me-
dium more convenient than either silver or gold. It was
the same case in regard to the general eh culation
country, and in that case, as in that of a private in-
the gold and silver were only small change. It
was true that they were considered as the standard of value,
and it was true that in a sense they were so. But in re-
ference to the transactions of the country they were Only
the small change with which the lesser business of life,
and the inferior operations of commerce, agriculture, and
manufactures were conducted. He could appeal upon
this suh)ect t t the constant practice of their Lordships
themselves. When any any of their Lordships remitted
IN/. to his banker's in London, it was not in silver or
gold that the remittance was made, but in paper, and in
this form of a bill of exchange. Occasions might certainly
occur, as a famine, or adverse exchanges, in which an in.-
creased demand for silver coin may arise. But in all the
great transactions o' life it was indispensable that the cur-
rency, by which such transactions were carried on, should
be in such a shape as could be obtained with most ease and
in the greatest quantity from every part of the world. He
(Lord Carnarvon) believed that a metallic standard of
value was peculiar to this country, and did not exist tO
any other country in the world. Indeed, thc., very srarctmy
of the precious metals, the ainality of Which is partly the
cbiise of their being adopted as a standard of value, makes

them peculiarly liable to be acted upon by combina-
tion annotigst men who deal in money; and if the B sok of
England had not to contend against the influence of !Mlle
persons of extensive power who command the Stock-ex
change, it would be in their power to throw great difficul-
ties in the way of bringing into this country the supply or
gold which was necessary to carry on the every-d sy busi-
ness of life in its several departments. He should at pre-
sent go no further into the question of the standard of cur-
rency than to say, that be thought the standard a most
unjust one at the time it was adopted, although it was per-
haps less unjust at present than it was at the time of its
adoption. He should now pass on to another part of this
question, in which measures bad been adopted, of the po-
licy of which he entertained great doubts. He alluded to
the withdrawal of the small notes from circulation. It
seemed that the leaders of all parties were equally pledged
to support this measure. They had all gotten into the
mud together, and, if they now floundered about in each
other's company until they were sinking below the surface,
they could blame nobody but themselves. But when they
asked that House and the people of England to come in
and wade along with them they trade a request which was
unreasonable in itself, and with which the people of this
country would not comply. And when the Speech which
had been read that day to the House should inform the
people of this country that his Majesty's Ministers had no-
thing to propose for the relief of the public distress, and
that they would not even attempt any inquiry into the
cause of the existing evils, it was time to try whether it
might not be worth while to communicate the management
of public affairs to other men who, possessing some
docility and sonic common sense, were at the same time
imptessed with a conviction that the people of this nation
might be rendered happy by the enactment of a few wise
laws, which there seemed no likelihood of obtaining front
the obstinacy of the present government. He should now
come to the speech of the Noble Viscount (Goderich).
The Noble Viscount had said that the change which had
taken place in the currency hail nothing to do with the
distress under which the country was groaning. (Lord
Goderich here rose and made an explanation which was
inaudible below the bar.) Lord Carnarvon, in continua-
tion—Did the Noble Viscount mean to say that, after the
reduction of thirty millions of taxes—after reducing the
whole amount of taxes from eighty-four millions to fifty-
six, we still continued to pay as much as before ? Did
the Noble Viscount mean to intimate that this was the re-
sult of the laws which had been enacted upon the subject
of the currency ? Were they to be now told that, after
15 years of peace, they paid taxes equal to the amount
which had been levied during the progress of a ante.t ex-
pensive war ? Were they to be told that they ought still
to pay the property tax, a tax which had beeu expressly
levied as a war tax, and which had been frequently de-
clared not to be a permanent imposition ? If thud con-
tinuing to pay the heaviest scale of the war tax were the
consequences which the currency laws produced in a
period of continued peace, then he (Lord Carnarvon)
should say that men who entertain such views, and pro-
duced such effects, were not capable of judging of either
the condition or the resources of the country. With re-
gard to the Noble Duke at the bead of the Adminis-
tration he (the Earl of Carnarvon) should say that no
minister of this country had ever possessed greater powee
to carry any measure which he might judge to be condu-
cive to the public interest, arid that no Minister ever enter-
tained stronger wishes fbr the public happiness, or more
honesty of intention. No roan was more ready than Le
(Lord Carnarvon) to admit the existence of these qualities
in the Noble Duke. Bat he would ask the I 1 able Dake
whether, by any degree of retrenchment which could be
adopted with safely, or oven by such a degree of retrench.
ment as should compromise the public security, it was
possible to meet the difficulties of the country ? When
the Noble Viscount (Goderich) considered the bearing of
the currency laws upon taxation he (Lord Carnarvon)
asked the Noire Viscount to consider their effects upon
every contract debt and obligation which existed in society
between man and man. If he was to be told that these
evils were the result of a transition from war to peace, he
should answer, that this cause which lied been invented
loug ago was in operation for sixteen years, during which
the state of the country was continually growing worse,
and its capital incessantly dwindling away. With regard
to the withdrawal of the small notes from circulation, even
the pretence upon which that measure Was attempted to
be justified could not be maintained for an instant. It had
been contended that the withdrawal of small notes 'would
prevent the evils of overtrading, but the overtrading, by
which were meant the extensive speculations of lills,
was not attributable to the existence of small
notes, which, on the contrary, supplied the means
of employing and paying the poor, whilst the
withdrawal of them had put an end to all credit for
any considerable amount. Let the House look a little
snore particularly at the effects of the measure as it was
in actual operation during the past season. If, in some
cases, the crop was abundant, yet the wetness of the season
rendered it necessary to keep the crop in hands for some
time, in order to dispose of it to any tolerable advantage.
The firmer would, in such a case, go to the banker, and
say that be wanted an advance of 1001., which he would
pay back with interest as soon as the dryness of the
weather should enable him to dispose with profit of a
crop, which he should, for want of money, be obliged to
dispose of at present at a ruinous under price. The
banker would, in this case, answer that he could net make
the advance; that he could only advance the money in
five-pound notes, and that he found that every five-pound
note which lie issued frotn his bank was returned back
within eight slays, in order to be exchanged for geld ; and
that the so exchanging the note for gold was an operation
en which he (the banker) made no profit, and, conse-
quently, that it was an operation which lie was little
inclined to repeat. He would, therefore, decline giving
I the assistance required, and the farmer would, for want
of the advance, be obliged to dispose of his crop at a ruin-
ous under price. The only argument that he had ever
heard in favour of the withdrawal of the small notes
was, that the issue of them created a danger that the
bankers would trade for a time on fictitious capital
in the market, and would therefore most probably fail
at some point or other of their dealings. That this was
true to some extent he (Lord Carnarvon) was ready to
admit ; but it was a fact beyond doubt, that of the persons
who failed in the speculations of 1825 there was lint a very
small part who did not pay twenty shillings in the pound,
even after all the losses and exrences which were inevit •
ably entailed by stoppage and bankruptcy. A great part
of the rest paid large proportions upon their debts, and this
at a time when the amount of bills in circulation exceed-
ed, by more than a hundred millions, the amount in cir-
culation at present. It was his (Lord Carnarvon's) opinion
that of the whole system of the currency the small notes
were that past which had the least connexion with the
production of overtrading. He was astonished to see that
Ministers could come to no other conclusion upon the sub-
ject than that of contracting the general circulation, and
restraining the issue of small notes. But it WAS snore
surprising that they should persevere its that system, see-
ing that since they had been adopted, the distress of the
country had been continually into casing. It was said
that the amount of gold in circulation was sufficient fur
the general purposes of business But was the quantity
of gold in circulation as cheap now as before ? And could
dear circulation ever support and facilitate the transactions
ofa great nation. lie (Lord Carnarvon) spoke out his
sentiments warmly upon the subject, because lie felt them
warmly ; but he regretted to observe, in reference to the
question, a general fear to offend and embarrass the Go-
vernment. Ile, for himself, disci timed all notion of
putting any unnecesaury difficulty in the way of his
Majesty's Government, but lie thought that the
suppression of the public sentiment would ulti-
mately lead to more dangerous consequences than
any which could at present result from an opus and
earnest investigation of the state of the country. It was
for this reason that lie had refused on many Occasions to
sign petitions, of which the object was to procure pattitl
relief fur the distresses old the coontry. Not that ho did
not think that einne partial and temporary relief might not
he obtained, but heCause he thought that the having re-
course to such measures woulvl end in a real illusion, by
w
p
e case.
taking
uld foe
oiteroti
tii4,netoiletatf-hat,,,.sisretsil ige:tieve iu some dce
egree ti,oloitetliTl
(ft.
:11:11:::
(isiii‘si
et;
condition
oritif
i3Oz,most:a: i
tt7iye, n.o
phi tio.t
tT
to
on
subject. And he. earnestly of the people ; but the tax so t:tketini:
henrieuisit,i,:efforredela
were
utaxes,iu.cip
most ialm,:nsillieuturhi.e:irmtatd :Inittilsetbilii
by lahr. (Lord Carnarvon)
the
l reteol:l;iyle labouredof lingland to consider this the
but thattlwy /),;weeitt from deepcoeovrtinalsci netelindneddin,e,rtad
which