The Sun.
London, England, 1863-12-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, PRiDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 11, 1863.

times, ofte ---- ._
- -- '
a on. Ilehalf of crowned heads and against
peoples;
' ant to held that England, if she would re-
Last
Layard, M.P., for South- tam her
( 'l7uninc, Mr. A. H• 'position as a first-rate Power. Inl., exert
work, m et his constituents at the Bridge-house a wr AI influence on the questions of European con-
-114 cerr,,
tel, L ondon-bridge, for the purpose of rendering which affected:her interests. To do that how-
an accat tnt of his Parliamentary conduct, and ex. e.ie•r, she must be prepared to incur h-avy expenses ;
pressiri g his views on the present state of public f ©nd that rjxpense, he believed, English men would
affair 3. The meeting wasvery numerously atteno,a . not grudge. The Government possessed the best
On e ntering the room the hon. member was 'sadly information of what took place on the Continent,
abet ,red. lie was accompanied to the ple,filtin by and could alone know the state of foreign arms.-
Tnas ly of his most influential suppor'xre in the ments. In 1861, Mr. Cobden wrote a pamphlet,
boi:ough. entitled " The Three Panics," in which he tried to

Mr„ Layard and his Constituents.

persuade us that our armaments were too large,—
infinitely larger than those of France ; and he
quoted returns to show what the French armaments
were. Now, cariously enough, an official report of
the state of the French navy at that time, to which
anybody could refer, had been published, and he
would quote a few facts from it. In France they
bad a system of what were called " supplemental
credits"—that was to say, a certain estimate
was taken for the year for the fleet, the
manning, the building of vessels, and the rest; but
beyond that, the Minister had the power of drawing
extra credits, which did not appear in the estimates.
Now, in the ,House of Commons the mistake had
been made of taking the French estimate alone,
without the supplemental credits. But the real state
of things was as follows:-1861—Vessels estimated
for, 171; number actually armed, 315; estimated
expenditure, £4,999 948; supplemental credit,
£3,350,000 ; total, £8,349,948; men on shore, esti-
mated, 4,259; actual number, 8,113; excess,
3,854 ; at sea, estimate, 26,366 ; actual number,
42,840 ; excess, 16,474 ; total excess over estimate,
20,328; excess of expenditure in dockyards,
£1,800,000. He mentioned these facts to show how
careful our Government ought to be, and how heavy
a responsibility for the defence of the country rested
upon them. In Europe the elements of disturbance
were to be seen on almost all sides. The French
Emperor had proposed a Congress for their settle-
ment, and Englishmen, being a practical people,
always looked to see whether any project that was
proposed to them was likely to promote or defeat
i'.B end. Having given every consideration to the
Emperor's scheme, her Majesty's Government,
acknowledging the good intentions of his Imperial
Majesty, had yet come to the conclusion that a Con-
gress would not practically attain the object in view.
The arguments of Lord Russell's despatch on that
head were, he thought, unanswerable. The good
sense of the English people had at once seizcd the
drift of those arguments and recognised their force.
Secret diplomacy had often been denounced, and in
diplomatic negotiations a certain amount of secresy
was indispensable to their success; but in this case
the official despatches were submitted to the public,
and on the whole, approved by them, almost as soon
as they were written. It Russia would not give up Po-
land under pressure of the three Powers, she would
not do so under the pressure of a Congress. Austria
would not give up Galicia, nor would:Prussia give
up Posen. Neither was France likely to give up
Savoy and Nice, whatever might be the decision of
a Congress. But if these questions were raised, how
could animosities be avoided, ending most probably
in war? No country had less to fear in going into
a Congress than England ; none less of selfish inte-
rest to seek. Selfish feeling, also, was utterly alien
to the decision which the British Government had
taken in this matter. He was surprised that their
Italian friends had jumped so quickly at the proposal
of a Congress. Of all the countries which had most
to lose from a Congress Italy was the first, because
the majority of the Catholic Powers would, no
doubt, have decided that Rome should remain in the
hands of the Pope against the wishes of the Italian
people ; and Venetia, also, would have been worse
situated than ever. (Cheers.) He would not at-
tempt to explain the Danish question to them, be.
cause, perhaps, he did not quite understand it him-
laugh)—but her Majesty's Government had
there likewise endeavoured to persuade the con-
tending parties to come to an amicable understand..
ing, and to respect treaties, which after all must be
the bases of all peace. He trusted that that warning
voice would be heeded, and that a fruitless war,
perhaps involving untold calamities to Europe and
to the Powers immediately concerned, would be
averted. (Hear, hear.) He approached the subject
of Poland with feelings which he could not well
describe. History scarcely furnished k ease more
deplorable, more horrible, or in which the Powers
had been more helpless. A policy almost of exter-
mination was being carried out in that unhappy
country, enforced relentlessly against young and
old, woman and man. The contemplation of it natu-
rally made an Englishman's blood run cold. (Cheers.)
But with all their sympathy for that down-trodden
race, the English people felt that they would not
he justified in going to war for them. Short of that
the Government had done what it could in their
behalf. He wished it could have done mote. The
opponents of the Government said in one breath
that it had done too much and that it had done too
little, saying at one moment " Why did you say you
would not go to war ?" and at another, " You gave
encouragement to the Poles." These two things
were irreconcilable. If the Government said at
once that it would not go to war, how could it have
given encouragement to the Poles ? Some argued
that it ought to have done nothing ; but if at the
time the insurrection broke out her Majesty's Go-
vernment had not remonstrated with Russia, as it
was warranted by treaty in doing, would it not
have been visited with the reprobation of the
country ? Sad as was the position of Poland, he
did not despair. The history of nations showed
that great crimes always brought about their own
punishment. The result of the great deportation
of the Polish people, instead of destroying disaffec-
tion in Poland, would be to carry disaffection else-
where; so that the cruelties now committed by
Russia might ultimately bring about their own
punishment. For the policy of strict neutrality
pursued by the Government in regard to America
he confidently claimed the approval of the country.
ll'at policy could not be carried without extreme
difficulty, as was exemplified by the case of the iron-
clads. It had been often asked why our merchants
should be allowed to supply munitions of war to
one of the belligerents and not allowed to supply
ships to the other. The answer was very simple—
the law prohibited the sale of ships, but did not
prohibit the saie of munitions of war. Tue Govern- '
ment had endeavoured to enforce the law to the
uttermost, but without straining it one tittle.
The Government was bound to protect the
rights of British merchants ; but on the
other hand, those merchants had likewise a
duty resting on them as honourable and up-
right citizens. For the sake of private gain they
ought not to expose their country to the risk of
being
R Plunged in ar with a kindred nation. (Hear)
cialeileZ . turned from the West to the East.
Assacia7i , the chairman of the Manchester Cotton
country whichthat article
had done most to supply the defi-
in our markets, and which had
been most lee:tttliele
The to the cultivator and the buyer,
an
extefinances of that Power had also
contemplated, and uittwhich even he could not have
E4Geovernment were putting
ivvinapsrforvuerdketyo.
He mentioned these
their Budget exhibiting to
rrevenue and expendt-
who had prosdti.tuted th chair of History
' tfohrewwaor forward
world the
et hsetafitrest
of
tore.
upon him by things in answer to the
attacks made
Gold
Oxford, Smith, of
with astonish-
Obyxfmoridn,gling
in the
_my arse na tit party strife.
went Mr. Cobden's statement that we sad
one
Coming to China and Japan, he read
spirit of Cortex Etna P to
zarro,
i nose regions in the
inevitable our only object being
"loot," and the ine •
re-
ult of our policy being to make us masters 0,
China. The truth was that our policy no,
Con:
stated iu avoiding quarrels with the provincial go-
vernors of China, and in having recourse to the
Central Government, with the view to a right un-
derstanding with it, treating it es eve
civilised nation, admitting our own should any
obligations
for
to-
;yards it, and expecting from it, in turn, respect
our treaty rights. In regard to British officers en-
tering the service of the Chinese Government, they
were to all intents and purposes Chinese officers
while they continued in that employment. The
same practice had been followed from time imme-
tnorial. Peter the Great, whose empire was very
much in the same state as China now was, organised
his fleet, his army, and his civil administration,

Mr. G. NEWMA's occupied the chair, and briefly
introduced the beismess.
Mr. LAYARD then presented himself, and was
greeted with vehement cheering. He said it was a
custom Eithor g the ancient Egyptiaus when a man
died for his friends and enemies to assemble to say
all the gi rid and evil they could of him, in order to
see wh,e' ther he ought to have a ticket for crossing
the gu if which separated him from the realms of
the b lessee]. With us it was a custom to go through
tlta•s ceremony during a man's lifetime, if he hap-
pened to be a member of the Legislature ; and once
a year he was obliged to appear before his friends
arid enemies to submit to all manner of cross-ques-
tionings and examination, in order, if possible, to
obtain a ticket which should carry him over the
gulf of a general election to the happy period of a
new Parliament. (Hear, and a laugh.) If he Were
fortunate enough to obtain that pass from them he
should feel amply rewarded for presenting himself
to them on that and other occasions. It had been
a frequent practice with public speakers to abuse
the late session, and assert that nothing had been
done by Parliament. He did not quite agree with
that statement, but even if it were true there would
not, after all, be very much to complain of. Parlia-
ment must be a reflex of public opinion in this
country, and if public opinion were anxiously bent
on the carrying of any great measure, they
might depend upon it that an opportunity wotdd
be given in Parliament to those who were really in
favour of them to make their influence felt. To use
a common expression, they could not have sensation
Parliaments if they had no sensation questions in
the country. Certainly, in the late session nothinr.
had been done to extend the suffrage or amend the
representation of the people; but he did not infer
from that that the Liberal members who had pre-
viously taken a deep interest in those measures were
now less inclined to support theal than they had
been a few years ago. Mr. Baines and Mr. Locke
King had buta thought it unadvisabte to press their
proposals relating to the th borouc and the counts
franchise on the
attention of the House. have
done so might he' e damaged instead of promoted
the cause they sincerely had at heart ; and no doubt
they had shown a wise discretion. Scarcely any
allusion 'to the extension of the suffrage was to he
met
with
in
any of the recent " extra Parliamen-
tary
su ut'teeances." He did not argue from that that
a,a extension was not necessary ; on the con-
trery," he believed that it would be a wise course to
ccmcmide it, and that it was eminently deserved by
the :people. At former periods of our history, when
unexpected distress occurred among the community,
vielent scenes of disturoance were witnessed and a
in ritual estrangement of classes. That was because
7the people then had not the advantage of a free
press and a widely-spread education. They did
not know exactly what their rights and their re-
lations to the rest of the cemmunity were, and
they iramedietely attributed to wrong causes the
sufferi'a'gs which pressed upon them at tae moment•
Now however, the people were intelligent, and
inatr .ucted in the maxims of political economy, and
did not ascribe to the Legislature or the Govern-
= seat a distress which neither could prevent. The
nueble attitude of the cotton operatives of Lance-
sihixe had brought into prominence the high quail-
thas of the British workman. He regretted deeply
'lite speeches lately delivered by two eminent men,
both personal friends of his—he meant Mr. Cobden
and Mr. Bright. They were painful speeches. (No.)
He was expressing his own opinion—(cheers)—and
must, say he thought his hon. friends greatly mis-
mederstood the position of the people of England.
Having had some experience of most countries in
:Europe, he maintained that, notwi'hstanding the
evils which existed in England—and God knew he
did not seek to make light of them—our labouring
classes were infinitely better off than the labouring
classes of many other European countries. He did
ot now speak of our colonies or of the other side of
the Atlantic. It was stated in the speeches to which
he referred that if the working man had political
power he would have land, and that if he had land
he would be prosperous. Now, reversing that, did
the working man who had land necessarily enjoy
political power? Would those acquainted with the
cond.ition of the labouring men in France, for ex-
ample, assert thee he enjoyed or exercised political
power ? He said that he did not, and granting that
the franchise did not go so low with us as it should
do, yet he m aintained that, indirectly, our working
classes exercised more political power than was
wielded Ir./ the same classes in any other country in
Europe. (Hear, heir.) Messrs. Cobden and Bright
had (lei.% ounced the want of education in this coun-
try, aidirtning that our people were not educated up
to dr) a level of other nations. (" They are not.") It
'ai;-,P,h.t sound like a paradox, but that arose from the
.t.ceEtt amount of liberty enjoyed in England*
eisia or any other continental State might pass
BchN't hi" •
h►Obliging every man to send his children to
"°l, but it was impossible to pass such a law in
this ,craatr
this ram.t Y. A large portion ot our peot;ee insisted in
on being left alone, they would not have
a au compuls
ory education, and claimed the right to
ccate 1,44
-per. Bre thou
,13,
children as they thought pro.
forced upon tilt education in England could not be
greetly left to e
"Ist Pe.o N
ple by the State, and must be
ee
eves really epp,s,,a. Effort, nobody amongst us
that ceu id be said ab its diffusion, and the wo.sl:
clu tie s uc h an accuteatt:t a
the aristocracy did not in-
hear.) They heard a g at.hat against them. (Hear,
educated"d
democracy. adeal of talk about "an
desideratum of any philosov4ale)t, it was the highest
be teal
have such a de-
mocracy ; but then it should.
as to ereabie it to recognise tho,,teru l educated, so
moralowed
restraints
la
which made a man feel what ,
to the rights
of others as well eato himself, In
game countries
they had seen the educated democracy swamped by
'the uneducated. To him, indeed, the
uestion of
the franchise was a qu,stion of
education
, ; he would
give the suffrage to the man who had the
intelli-
gence to use it, but not to him who haa not
iitle‘h
intelligence. (Cheers.) The last session could lio,
altogether be called a useless session. for_ it had Wit-
nessed the springing up of a desire for economy.
The great object of Mr. Gladstone had been to
culcate the importance of a reduction of expeedi-
lure ; and last session he had been enabled to lower
the tea duties and the income-tax. True, the pro-
posal to deal with public_ charities had to be with-
drawn ; but all who beard or read Mr. Gladstone 's
masterly speech on that subject would feel that an
alteration in the discreditable state of those institu-
tions must one day be attempted. (Hear.) Having
alluded to the removal of St. Thomas's Hospital
from that district as a gross violation of the founders
will, Mr. Layard proceeded to the foreign questions
which had been discussed during the past session.
Messrs. Cobden and Bright told them that they
ought to have nothing to do ;with such subjects, yet,
strange to say, two-thirds at least of their own re-
oadt speeches were devoted to foreign politics. (A
vo
- " Don't run them down.") He did not run
dy down, but met argument by argument.
It w impossible to keep this country from fo-
reign politics. r • h
aagies men were determined to
maintain that _
i<;
which
ti:e.yui vit ce among the nations of the work
entitled by their intelligence
and their noble trat4iti• •
ons. Did they believe that
wilb an extended suffrage the
terference with foreign
quest;,ohys7ll\lrily' d haze no in-
pathy lately shown for
Poland had emanatedte sym-
pathy"more
from the lower classes than u from the higher and
f",r from the Government "
mg the lead, they
it were, been comptil,_,
hed,
as
si to restrain the popu-
(Hear, hear-) It was
Jar ardour es often said that
did not meddle with
the United State.- other peopie's
k,,..5t themselves to thernwv
affairs, but That
but was not es.
might be poet:dist() for them, po:saible for
of the European family, wo were
us. As a member
from America,--
in a totally different category
was not advocating the odious policy of i.ntervet,„
tion, a policy adopted by this country I n former

with the assistance of Englishmen, Frenchmen, and
Germans. An Englishman at present held the

post of admiral in the Turkish navy. We had an
enormous trade with China, and the Taepings, a
ruthless horde of marauders, threatened its destruc-

tio n seizing the treaty ports. We had interposed
o bprotecty oar trade, and that was the entire extent
t

of our interference. Our exports to China had risen

from £1,027,000 to £5,451,000 in six years. Here
was a statement of the trade with Hanko W since that

place had been taken from the Taepinge and opened
to our commerce.

" Ratko?, 1862,—Total value of trade, 1862, £6,189,951,
showing an increase of £3,011,482 10s. over previous year.
Of tonnage—Aggregate, 290,536, of which British 128,478,
showing increase of 1,061 vessels and 196,103 tons over
previous year. At Shanghai, again, the duties collected
in December, 1869, were £122,000; in December, 1861,
£281,500,"

would do, otherwise they would have no business
to be in office. The acts of Government were marked
by liberality and patriotism. In placing Mr. State-
fold at the Admiralty, in choosing a man like Sir J.
Lawrence as Governor-General of India—(cheers)
—and in their other appointments, he believed they
had earned the approval of the public. For these
and many other results of their administration of
public affairs he thought he could therefore con-
scientiously claim for them the support of their
countrymen. (Loud cheers.)

That increase to our commerce had been most valu-

able at a time when our cotton trade was paralyse&
He now turned to Japan—a subject which no doubt

would give rise to many important discussions. Some
_ _ _

- -
200 years ago, the Japanese admitted Euro•
peens, chiefly Catholic missionaries, into their ter-

Several questions were then put to the hon. mem-
ber hall, most of which were of
localpersons in
In replying
b interest.
said that considerable progress had lately been
made in the abolition of the lash in the army and
navy, and that the destruction of the dwellings of
the working classes for metropolitan railway im-
provements had led to evils which called for serious
public attention.
A resolution thanking Mr. Layard for his address
and expressing approval of his public conduct was
then adopted by the meeting, amid loud cheers, and
the proceedings terminated.

ritory. Religious dissensions, afterwards springing
up, the Government thought the Christians were op-
posing their authority, and a massacre took place,
when many of the missionaries were slain and the
rest expelled the country. From that period until
very recently there was scarcely any intercourse be-
tween Japan and the outside world. He did not
know whether in these days any nation could com-
pletely isolate itself from the rest of mankind, but
that was not the question. But it was the Russians
and Americans who first broke through the isola-
tion of Japan by obtaining treaties from its rulers
on behalf of their traders; and he maintained
that our Government, under those circumstances,
had, no alternative but to establish similar rela-
tions with that country. Had they refused
to do that they would have been told that
whenever there was a fight they were sure to put
their noses into it—(e laugh)—but that when trade
only was concerned they would do nothing to secure
for our merchants the privileges enjoyed by Russians
and Americans. Well, Lord Elgin had negotiated
a treaty with the Tycoon, placing us on the same
footing as those other nations. We commenced no
aggressions on the Japanese, but simply established
ourselves where we had a right to be. Sir R.
Alcock had scarcely taken up his residence in Japan
before the British Legation was attacked, one inter-
preter and two foreigners murdered, and several
other persons dangerously wounded. We, however,
made allowance for the difficulties of the Japanese,
who asked ns to defer going to certain ports
to which we were admitted by treaty, and they sent
a mission to the British Government to make that
request. We received their embassy with every
mark of friendship, and not only granted their re-
quest, but prevailed on other Powers to do the
s me. The treaty gave foreigners the right of tak-
ing exercise on the high road to Jeddo. One day
three Englishmen and a lady were riding there,
when they fell in with one of the Daimios, who
appeared to have hated foreigners, and who conse-
quently gave orders to his followers to attack these
innocent strangers, who had drawn up on the side
of the road to avoid his party. The lady and the
other gentlemen escaped with their lives, but Mr.
Richardson was most barbarously murdered. For
these outrages we demanded reparation from the
Japanese Government, together with the punishment
of the chief by whose orders they were committed.
file Japanese Government made an apology and paid
over a large sum of money, but said they could not
punish that independent Daimio, who did not re-
cognise their authority, but must leave us to deal
with him ourselves. Our only course then was to
tell them that if they could not control him we
would punish him oursels es. If we had not done that,
and any further outrages occurred, the Japanese
Government could easily have again urged that they
were powerless to coerce the wrongdoer, and British
subjects might have been murdered with impunity.
Admiral Kuper was accordingly ordered to go to
Kagosima and punish the Prince of Sutsume. Re-
dress having been refused, our squadron took
possession of three steamers belonging to that
prince. Much misapprehension existed as to the
tonduct of the Admiral on that occasion. It had
been said that having seized these three steamers
he flaunted them before the Japanese, that they
naturally fired on him, and that he had no right to
put himself in the way of making them fire upon
him. Now, the bay or harbour of Kegosima was
very narrow, or not more than 4,000 yards wide at
its broadest part. It was blowing a gale, and the
Admiral went into the bay to get out of the gale.
He seized the vessels, and could not get out
again, without passing the batteries, which fired on
him as he came out. What could he do under those
circumstances ? If he had allowed the Japanese
to injure his vessels and kill his men without re-
senting it, everybody would have said he had acted
a part unworthy of a British officer. Moreover,
the Japanese would immediately have said that the
English fleet had been beaten, and there probably
would have been a general massacre throughout
Japan. He was therefore bound to return the fire.
The castle of the Prince was immediately in the
middle of the town. A Japanese town it should be
remembered was built of lath and plaster. A CM-
flag r a tion ensued—a great calamity which no one
deplored more than her Majesty's Government. He
was not there to defend it for a moment; but it was
impossible to return the fire of the batteries without
running the risk of setting fire to the town, built of
such inflammable materials. It was most lamentable
that a large number of innocent people should have
been exposed to that misfortune, and it was
most unfortunate that an English fleet should
have been the cause of it ; but the thing was
inevitable, and they ought to give some credit to our
naval officers, and wait till they had had an oppor-
tunity of giving an explanation of their acts. Hon-
ourable men at a distance from England, discharging
difficult and responsible duties, ought not to be con-
demned hastily or accused of cruelty and barbarity
until they had had a fair hearing. (Hear,) The Go-
vernment were not responsible for these things, but
there were other persons really responsible. Helwould
speak with tenderness and respect of British mer-
chants, but the greatest difficulties of the Govern-
ment in these matters originated with our merchants.
Great houses like the Lindsay's, the Jardines, and
others would not do anythingcalculated to involve us
in war ; but the moment the Japanese ports were
opened there rushed thither a swarm of adventurers
who thought the only use of a British Minister or a
British fleet was to enable them to secure their dis-
honest gains. These adventurers went there, looking
upon the people as their lawful prey, and did things
some of which might make men's blood run cold.
The blue-books showed how they put forward ficti-
tious and monstrous claims in unreal and even in-
decent names. When thesis men, who were a dis-
grace to the English name, got into trouble, the
first thing they did was to call on their own Govern-
ment to defend them. If they wore cot listened to,
they raised a loud outcry, and wrote home com-
plaints against our official representatives. The
British merchant was entitled to protection for his
lawful, but not for his unlawful trade. (Cheers.)
Our countrymen were bound to respect the native
population among whom they lived, to act like honest
traders, and abstain from injastice and fraud.
(Cheers.) He had recently come from Italy, where he
telt proud to see that the sympathies of Englishmen
had not been thrown away, and that that great
country was making the most extraordinary pro-
gress. England certainly never stood higher than at
this moment in the estimation of the world. Her
influence was never greater, because she sought to
commit aggression upon none and envied none. She
wished to see every country enjoying peace and
that the
rosperity, and her independent position placed her
tiiStthe very front rank of nations. It was ottets said
ttfaT
h that was in no degree due to the present Go-
ztenl'ent, and that their political opponents would
(siet.l3, the same as they did. Now, everything
press. They eg„E,
theirOve Government did was censured and con-
demned by
opponents, and by the Opposition
South, and for atop blamed. for not recognising the
that their
steam rams. Ought he
theinto verywar
Novrtihtete
not to infer from
their opponents would
eoTe, and plunge the
ed States ? He be-
cipiccuinesdutreythat on that and on many other questions the
press:. t. Government acted better tiA, their topponents

If the Court is satisfied, we also are satisfied with its deci-
sion.

The President—Then the application is withdrawn?
The Prosecutor—lt is simply withdrawn because it is
irrelevant.

The President—Yes ; the Court considered it irrelevant.
The Prosecutor—Then we simply withdraw it.
After a pause,
The Prosecutor—Will the Court allow me to ask one
more question of Ardessar before he goes ?
The Prisoner—May,l beg to ask the Court whether the
prosecution is not closed and the defence also ? How, there-
fore, is it possible to recall the witness ?
The President—We will see what the question is.

Colonel Pipon (Judge Advooate)—Am I to understand,
then, that the Court has decided that this matter is not
relevant to the charges?

The President—Yes ; the Court decide that.
The Prosecutor—The prosecution feel themselves bound,
under those circumstances, to withdraw the application.
Prisoner—With great respect to the Court, I must be
permitted to observe that the prosecution is conducting this
case in a manner in which no criminal case has ever been
conducted before. If Ardessar is recalled and reques-
tioned, I must withdraw my statement that the defence has
been closed.
After a short pause,
The Prosecutor—We withdraw the application to recall
th

Le witness.
The President—The Court is adjourned till 10 o'clock on
'hursday, the 17th inst, •