The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, AUGUST 13. 1839.

afraid it could not be carried as an amendment, as it
would have the effect of preventing the Report of the
Committee of Ways and Means from being received,

if the Hilt). Member would withdraw the motion now
he could introduce it again at a later period of the evening.
Mr. O'CONNELL said upon that understanding he
would withdraw it for the present.

Mr. HODGSON HINDE trusted that Government
would be prepared to accede to a similar suggestion
with respect to Scotland.
Mr. P. THOMSON said he was willing to agree to
the appointment of a Government Engineer, to select
between two competing lines, as had peen done in the
Manchester and Brighton cases—( Hear, hear)—but he
should object to a fishing kind of motion to supersede
inquiry by the parties.
Mr. SHAW thought the proposition in this case
very just.—( Rear, hear.) No object could be more
important than the facilitating the communication be-
tween London and Dublin.—( Hear, hear.) He thought
it would be impossible that Liverpool should remain the
port of communication. He had sailed between the two
countries as often as any man—(A laugh)—and out of
the thirty times within the last year or two,he had never
but once known the vessel able to come alongside the
pier. Incalculable advantage would result from alter-
ing the time of communication between the two cities
from twenty-four hours to sixteen—(Hear, hear)—and
let the House reflect that the benefit would not be
simply the saving of six hours of time, but letters
arriving now at six in the evening—an hour compara-
tively useless in a commercial point of view—would then
arrive at noon—most important for the mercantile in-
terests.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL withdrew his motion.
JOINT STOCK BANKS.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, the Report on the Joint Stock
Banking Company Bill was received.
EXCISE LICENSES BILL.
The RIGHT HON. GENTLEMAN then moved the fur-
ther consideration of the Report on this Bill.
Sir S. LUSHINGTON said he objected to the effect
of the first clauses in this Bill. He had no hesitation
in declaring that the Licensed Victuallers, as a body
felt themselves deeply aggrieved by the effect which it
would have on their trade. The Bill had been intro-
duced at a very late period of the Session—it had not
been before the House till the 15th July. It went to
provide, that wherever wholesale dealers were at pre-
sent restricted from selling less than two gallons of
foreign spirits or liquors, they might henceforth sell
any quantity greater than one bottle, estimated mea-
sure, on the payment for a licensse of five guineas per
annum. The result would be that Licensed Victuallers
would lose, according to their own judgment aad
opinion, the most profitable and the most respectable
part of the trade in which they were engaged.—
(Hear, hear.) The Bill was founded on a Report of
certain Hon. Gentlemen, framed without the know-
..

ledge of the licensed victuallers, and on evidence, to
which they have not been enabled to supply any
answer. It was said that by the present system the
revenue was injured. How ? That persons desirous
of purchasing less than two gallons of foreign spirits
or liquors, find that the wholesale dealers cannot
supply them, and go away without procuring the de-
sired quantity. Now, he did not believe one word of
this.--(Hear, hear.) Universal experience showed
that where persons found they could not get what they
wished at one shop they did at another.—( Hear.)
The licensed victuallers supplied articles of the same
quently, as the wholesale dealer, they possessed consi-
derable capital, and could command the best stock.—
( Hear, hear.) Then let it be remembered what heavy
expenses they were liable to for licenses and rating,
while, at the same time, they had to provide every ac•
commodation for customers ; whereas the wholesale
dealer had nothing but the mere rent of a cellar to
pay.—( Hear.) In the Tower Hamlets, in Liverpool, and
generally the outports, the best portion of the licensed vic-
tualler's trade was the selling of various quantities of
spirits, up to two gallons, especially to seafaring men.
Now, the present measure would be raising up against
them a crushing competition. Let it not be said that he
(Sir S. L.) was opposing free trade ; he never had ; he
never would oppose it ; but he was objecting to a partial
free trade, to unjustly injuring persons on whom were
now imposed many statutory burdens, and to the de-
stroying vested interests, protected by every principle
of fairness.—(Hear, hear) Besides, who would say
that the measures would be confined within its professed
limits ? Consumption on the premises it was said
would be prevented ? How could persons be expected
to buy a considerable quantity of spirits without tasting
—(A laugh)—and did not the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer know that if the article were good, the tasting
would probably be repeated.—(Laughter.) The
measure would cot merely operate as to respectable bona
fide wholesale dealers, but as to a new, disreputable
class of persons, who, by renting a pretended wholesale
cellar at the trifling charge of 101. a year might carry on a
really retail trade. Under all these circumstances, he
moved the omission of the words " foreign spirits," and
would take the sense of the House on it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
would not occupy more than a few minutes in satisfying
the House, as he hoped he should be able to do, that
there was no substantial violation of justice in this Bill.
First, as to the question of notice, he thought
that there could be no reasonable objection.—(Hear.)
As far as notice was concerned, the parties had had
ample notice on the subject, for the Bill was brought in
on the 18th of July. He would be extremely unwilling
to press the Bill if he thought it would inflict a wrong
on the respectable class to which his Hon. and Learned
Friend had referred, and who deserved every considera-
tion on account of their conduct and the peculiar bur-
theus imposed on them. The law regarding the sale of
foreign spirits was daily violated, and the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had said why not enforce the pe-
nalties, but do not alter the law ? but doing that would
put an end to a particular part of the trade. Under
such circumstances he thought it would be more ad-
visable to alter the law than to enforce it. The only
point in dispute appeared to be whether any danger was
to be apprehended by allowing wholesale dealers to take
out a license of 5/. or 5/. 55., for the purpose of enabling
them to send out foreign brandy and Hollands in
bottles. It did not appear to him that it would
be injurious to make that legal which was at present
carried on without a license. It had occurred to him
that a fraud might be practised under the Bill, namely,
that parties might send out British spirits other than
those comprehended in the Bill ; and that if a licensed
victualler complained of such a violation of the law,
the onus would be cast on him of showing British spi-
rits had been sent out and not foreign spirits ; but he
found, on communicating with the Excise, that the onus
would be thrown on the party sending out the spirits,
to prove that it came within the terms of the Bill, and
that the licensed victualler would not have to prove the
spirits sent out were foreign or colonial.
Mr. ATTWOOD hoped this Bill would not be
pressed, for he thought the licensed victuallers had been
very hardly used by the passing of the Beer Bill.
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS was of opinion that if
this Bill passed in its present shape, considerable hard-
ship would be inflicted on the licensed victuallers, and
that there would be more evasion of the law than there
was at present. It was not fair to rob the licensed vic-
tualler of that portion of his trade which all must ad-
mit was the most profitable to him, that of selling liquor
in quantities under two gallons. This was not a ques-
tion of free trade. He felt very strongly on this mat-
ter, knowing that licensed victuallers had suffered great
injury by the passing of the Beer Bill. He should
therefore give his support to the motion of his Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets.
Mr. AG 1. 10 NBY was extremely sorry to see such
opposition to a Bill which be believed would tend to
the benefit of the public. When a Bill was intro-
duced, the tendency of which was to benefit the public
as consumers, it was certain of being objected to by a
large body of monopolists, who objected to the people
being supplied except through their own hands. He
hoped the House would allow the first clause to stand
as it was, and that they would accede to his proposition
of extendiug the provisions to rum.
Mr. CLAY thought his Honourable Friend might
as well at once have asked the House to al-
low wholesale dealers to sell brandy to be
consumed on the premises. It had been decided over
and over again by that House, that for the sake of pub-
lic morals and the preservation of order there should
not be a free trade in spirituous liquors. The real
question before the House was, whether they were not
running the risk of encouraging smuggling, and increas-
ing the number of retail shops for the sake of confer-
ring a very doubtful advantage on a small class of so-
ciety, He should support the motion of his Hon.
Colleague.
Mr. HUME considered it to be idle to talk of public
morality being affected by this Bill ; but it was of
course to the interest of the licensed victuallers to
oppose it. He (Mr. Hume) thought an individual
oneht to be allowed to purchase a bottle of spirits for
the use of his family, where he could get it best. He
did not himself drink spirits—( Laughter)—but he
would allow others to indulge their tastes. He should
second the amendment of his Hon. Friend for the pur-
pose of including rum or foreign spirits in the provision
of the Bill.
Mr, HAWES opposed the Bill. He believed the
Bill had been introduced merely at the request of cer-
tain gentlemen at the west-end of the town, who dealt
in liquors and spirits illegally, to gratify illegal tastes.—
(A. laugh, and cries of" Oh, h.")
Mr. BROTHERTON would support the amend-
ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
Tower Hamlets. He thought the measure was un-
called for, and that it was but right that the wholesale
dealer shoold not have the power of selling a single
bottle.
Mr. F.BARING said the object of the Bill was to
render legal a practice which at present existed to it con-
siderable extent.
Mr. H. HINDS apposed the Bill.
Captain PECHELL thought the measure was one
that might very well have beers postponed to the next

session.
Mr. GRIMSDITCH supported the
the Right Hon. Member for the Tower

amendment of
namlets.