The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

ROUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening.
The LORD k /IANCEL4 0R took hie seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

PETITION.
The Earl of ST. GE KMANS,presented a petition froid
the inhabitants of Mountjoyward, Dublin, in favour of the
bill for the Registration of Births and Deaths (Irelandj 13111.

GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY (NEW METRO.

POLITAN STATION AND BRANCHES) BILL.
L rd CHELMSFORD presented a petition against this
bill from the Lord Mayor and incorporation of the City of
London, on the ground of the evils that would arise from
the occupation of open spaces, and the evils to the inhabi-
tants whose houses were placed beside the line of railway.
On the adjourned debate on the second reading of this

bill,
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition I
against the bill from the London Institution, the Royal 1
Opthalmic Hospital, the vicars and churchwardens of seve-
ral parishes through which the proposed railway would pass,
and others. With regard to the Opi halmic Hospital, the
noise and po, itioP. of the railway would disturb the delicate
operations performed in the hospital, and interfere with the
convalescence of the patients, who would also be dtpiived
of a great boon in the occupation of Finsbury, quare. TLis
petition, he thought, should be decisive of the
fate of the bill. It was his duty, in the absence
of the noble earl (the Earl of Derby), to move the
reading of the bill this day six months--unless their lord-
ships were prepared to enter into the whole question of
metropolitan railways. Since the bill had been introduced
he had made inquiries in the whole district. Finshury-
circus was the only opening for fresh air to many
inhabitants in the neighbourhood, shut up in
closed houses, and with no other means almost
their whole lives of breathing fresh air. It 'Eight also
be said they had not access to the gardens in Finsbury
circus, but they had still the privilege of walking in the
open space, which, at any rate, was of advantage to the
neighbourhood, whether the inhabitants walked in it or
not. The noble lord also complained that no notice
had been given to the tenants of the intended kill, and
it was the interest of ;the landlords, who had notice, to
keep them in ignorance till the last moment. It was a
great hardship to these tenants to be turned so suddenly
out of their houses, the more especially that in order to
be near their business they were obliged to live in
.tAgsuA).....bnrui Their lordships had no right to pass
this bill without taking into consideration that about 1,200
houses would be taken under the bill, and no less than
12,500 persons compelled to remove to another residence.
The bill was the very reverse of the principle they had al-
ways given effect to—that of giving as many open places
as possible in the metropolis. It was farther doubtful
whether the Great Eastern, whose last dividend was 14
per cent., and who were borrowing money at 4 Z per cent.,
would be able to complete the scheme ; and doubtful
whether the advantages promised would result while there
would be so many countervailing evils. He moved that
the bill be read a second time this day six months.

Lord EBURY thought it would be advisable to with-
hold the consent of Parliament from these railway schemes
for a year. If the powers sought for were once conceded
without sufficient deliberation, there was no knowing
what the results would be.

Lord STRADI3ROKE supported the second reading o;
the bill.

Lord GRANVILLE neither favoured nor opposed the
bill, but thought it would be better to await the report of an
officer of the Board of Trade on the subject, and proposed
for that purpose that the debate be adjourned for a week.
Lord CARNARVON considered that the Government
ought to take the subject of these railway bills into their
own hands, and lay before Parliament a well-digested and
consistent plan of railway improvements next session. So
strongly did he hold this opinion that unless the Govern-
ment decided to adopt some such course he should vote
against every railway bill, whatever its merits.
Lord TAUNTON concurred with the ,suggestion made
by Lord Granville.
Lord REDESDALE opposed the second reading of the
bill, as it interfered with a public garden, few of which
were in the neighbourhood.
Lord GREY proposed that the debate should be post-
poned for a fortnight, in order that the promised report
might be made, although he much doubted whether that
report would be of much value to assist them in legislating
on the subject.
Lord MALMES BURY trusted that all these railway
bills woald be rejected until a definite system was laid
down by the Government on this subject and presented to
Parliament.
Lord GRANVILLE adopted the suggestion of Lord
Grey, and moved .the adjournment of the debate for a fort-
night.

Lord SHAFTESBURY having withdrawn his motion,
the motion of Lord Granville was agreed to.
Their lordships adjourned at 25 minutes past six o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening,
The SPE/LI:ER took the chair at four o'clock.

The Birmingham and Sutton Coalfield Extension Bi
was read a second time.

ATHENRY AND ENNIS JUNCTION RAILWAY
(ABANDONMENT) BILL
The order for the second reading was withdrawn.
PETITIONS.
Petitions were presented by Mr. Cox, from inhabitants
of Bishopsgate-street, complaining that the Government
had sent two detective officers to Warsaw without written

instructions, and praying that they might be called to the
bar to explain the exact nature of their mission ; Sir J.
SHELLEY, from Westminster, to the same effect. Mr.
HENNESSY, from St. Pancras, to the like effect, and pray-
ing for inquiry ; from Dundee, in favour of the independence
of Poland ; Mr. BAINES, from Leeds, against the Prison
Ministets' Bill; from certain ministers, in favour of the
prevention of the sale of intoxicating liquors on the Sab•
bath; an How. MEMBER, from Ripon, in favour of the
repeal of the duty on malt.
THE PROCESSION ON SATURDAY.

In reply to General BUCKLEY,
Sir G. GREY said the gallant general had not given
him notice of his question; but he might state that his
attention had been particularly called to the imperfect
police arrangements on Saturday, when the Prin-
cess Alexandra passed through the City, by the news
papers, and to the absence of any official regulations
for keeping the streets clear. The accuracy of the state-
ments published in the newspapers had since been con-
firmed by gentlemen witk whom he had conversel, who
were in the City. The subject, however, of uniting the
City and Metropolitan Police had not as yet received tit*
attention of the Government.

Sir DE LACY EVANS desired to ask a question on
the same subject, but would defer doing so until to. morrow.

INDIA-MEDICAL SERVICE.

Mr. R, MI LLS asked the Secretary of State for India,
when the details for the amalgamation of the Medical
Service of the late East. India Company with that of the
Royal Army were likely to be promulgated
Sir C. WOOD replied that this subject was now under
the consideration of the War-office. He was not in a con-
dition to say when the details would be promulgated, but
he hoped only a short time would elapse.
EMIGRATION OF PAUPERS.
Mr. STANLEY asked the President of the Poor Law
Board if boards of guardians or parish vestries had not
the power to raise money for the purposes of assiatiug the
emigration of paupers and their families to British colonies ;
and, if so, under what restrictions and regulations?
Mr. C. VILLIERS replied in the affirmative, and ex-
plained the mode of proceeding on the part of parish autho-
rities in order to promote emigration. A rate could be
levied, and not more than £lO per head expended.
THE MAILS TO THE CAPE.

Sir M. PETO asked the Secretary to the treasury if he
would lay upon the table of the house a list of the names
of the parties who tendered for the mail contract for the
Cape of Good Hope, with the amount of such tender, and the
name of the successful party ; and whether the contract
would be deposited upon the table of the house for one
month previous to its confirmation, as suggested by the
committee on mail contracts?

Mr. F. PEEL replied that he had no objection to lay the
tenders on the tables The tender of the successful party
would be laid on the table previous to its confirmation.
A POLL TAX IN SMYRNA.

Mr. VIYLD asked the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs if the Government had received
any memorials or remonstrances from British subjects
residing at Smyrna, of the attempted imposition by the
British Consul of a poll-tax of five shillings per head upon
every adult Englishwoman and Englishman residing at
Smyrna : And, if he would lay before the house, al copy
of the report of Sir Edmund Hornby on the compaints
made against Mr. Consul Blunt at Smyrna F
Mr. LA.YARD replied that the Government had received
a memorial of the nature referred to, and he had no
objection to lay it on the table of the house. But
the so-called " poll-tax" was strictly and Specially
a registration fee, levied under an order in Council, in
fact it was a fee levied by the representatives on all persons
not natives of the place. The money thus levied was ap -
plied to public purposes, and he might add that it was levied
on those who did not pay Englidi and who would not pay
Turkish taxes. (Laughter.) As lour years had
elapsed since the matter referred to in the
other part of the question occurred, he thought no good
would arise front now producing the papers.
Sir B. BOWYER inquired if the opinion of the law
officers of the Crown had been obtained on the validity of
the Order in Council adverted to.
Mr. LAYARD replied that such ordcrs were drawn up
by the I.w officers of the Crown.
FAIRS AND MARKETS (IRELAND),

Mr. BLAKE asked tho Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether he intended during the present session to introduce
a measure for the better regulations of fairs and markets
in Ireland.
Sir R. PEEL said the law with respect to weights and
measures, passed last year, only came into operation at the
beginning of the present year. The Government were
watching its operation, and had no intention at present to
introduce a new measure.
THE ENGLISH POLICE SENT TO POLAND,
Mr, HENNESSY asked the Secretary of State for

the Hem,s i3ecartment whether he would lay upon
the table of the Louse the note of the Russian
Ambassador communicating the desire of the Grand
Duke Constantine, Lieutenant-Governor of Poland,
that some of the metropolitan policeforce should be sent to
Poland; whether, at the date of that application by the
Russian Ambassador, her Majesty's Government were
aware that a state of siege was in force
in
Poland; whether her Majesty's Govern,amteentof
received anyhthade
Russian application) political disturbances and arrests
informationthat (prior
.to the a
of political prisoners had taken place in Warsaw : whet er
the metropolitan police officers despatched by the Govern-
ment to Poland received any instructions or made any re-
ports, and whether such instructions and reports would be
laid upon the table of the house. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY recited what he stated on Monday even-
ing in reply to a kindred question, and stated that Baron
Brunow had since informed him that he had no objection
to the confidential communication which he had addressed
to hint requesting that two police officers might be sent to
Warsaw, being laid on the table of the house. He (Sir
G. Grey) had accordingly this day laid it on the table.
When the Government received the cOminunication of
the Russian Ain bassad( r they were not aware that the
execution of political offenders hid taken place in
Poland. Warsaw bad been declared in a state
of siege since October, le6l, and that state of things
still continued. Acting Consul White had, it was true,
informed the Government that modifications had
been introduced into the state of government.
Prior to the letter of the Ambassador the Government had
not received information of the arrest of political prisoners,
and that disturbances had taken place. The various com-
munications of the British Consul, Col. Stodhard, at War-
saw, on the events there, had been also laid on the
table of the house. The commissioners of police did not
give the two police officers any written instructions, but
certain written instructions had been handed to th.em
by him (Sir G. Grey) in pursuance of the office which
he had the honour to hold, and he had placed
them on the table of the house. A report had been
handed in by one of the officers, but though these docu-
ments were usually regarded as confidential, consi-
dering this case a peculiar and extraordinary one he thought
no mystery should attach to it, and had therefore likewise
laid that report on the table of the house. (Hear, hear.)
ARMY ESTIMATES—WOODEN SHIPS.
Some other questions of minor importance having been
asked and answered,
Mr. LINDSAY rose to move—" That it is not expedient
to commence at the present time building wooden ships
which are to be cased with iron armour-plates." He said
when the Secretary for the Navy brought in the navy esti-
mates he stated that there was a large stock of timber in the
navy, and that it was intended to use a portion of that tim-
ber in the construction of five ships, to be covered with iron.
armour plates, and he (Mr. Lindsay) proposed the reduc-
tion of a particular vote in order to raise the question. A
discussion followed, and the noble lord at tho head of the
Government promised that the construction of those five
wooden ships should not De continued until the opinion of
the house had been taken upon the subject. The first ques-
tion he desired the house to consider was whether iron or
wood was the most suitable material for the construction of
ships of war. It was well known that iron was ten times
stronger than wood : that was to say, an inch plate of Eng-
lish iron was quite as strong as a 10 inch plank of English
oak. The first operation in constructing a ship was the lay-
ing down the keel, and in the case of wooden ships the keel
and sternpost were necessarily divided into a great number
of different parts, and the ribs, or timbers of ships as they
were called, were fastened together by bolts and trenails.
But the sternposts and timbers had in themselves very little
strength. It was only when they put the planking outside
and the fastenings inside that the ship became so strong.
But the keel and kelson and sternpost of an iron ship could
all be formed into one piece ; that was to say they could all
be welded together, and every part when welded was as strong
as, if not stronger than, any other portion of the iron. He
might incidentally state that he was not a shipbuilder, nor
was he directly or indirectly interested in any shipbuilding
yard in this or any other country. But he was a. ship-
owner, and for the last 10 years he had had no ships built
of wood, as he had arrived at the conclusion that iron ships
were much stronger. The Admiralty had recently laid a
paper on the table of the house on the relative advantages
of iron and wood, and relative cost of each material in the
construction of ships for the navy. In that paper, though
the Admiralty admitted that an iron ship was on the whole
much stronger than wood, yet they argued throughout that
it was advisable to construct of wood the ships that were in.
tended to be cased with iron. In the first place they stated
that they had not been satisfied with regard to the
quality of the iron supplied. Now the quality of iron was
a question of price, and if they had not the best iron for
the construction of their ships of war it Was the fault of
the Admiralty. Then it was stated in this paper that the
compasses of iron ships were liable to get wrong. Now
there was a vast number of iron ships afloat. He had him-
self iron ships sailing to all parts of the world, and
he had not found those serious difficulties with regard to the
compasses which were stated in this paper. With regard to
fouling the bottom, which was another objection made;
shipowners who had iron ships going voyages to India and
California, and Australia, found no difficult in this respect;
and it was a singular thing that when the ships were taken
into fresh water, up a river, the barnacles all fill off. But
independently of that, there was the obvious remedy of dock-
ing. With regard to the splinters from iron ships in case
they were struck by shot he was not so capable of giving an
opinion, but he would bring forward two or three witnesses.
One was Mr. Scutt Russell, an iron shipbuilder, who in two
able pamphlets published in 1861 and last year, called
The Navy of the Future," went into the whole question of
the strength of iron ships, and the effect of shot of various
kinds, and he proved that iron ships might be built as strong
as wooden ships of far greater dimensions and weight, and
much stronger than wooden ships of equal weight and mea-
surement; that iron ships would have less draught, could
carry much heavier weights, were far more durable, safer
against the sea, safer against fire, much safer against en-
plosive shot, safer against red hot shot and molten metal,
and that they could for all practical purposes be made im-
pregnable even against solid shot. Such were the conclu-
sions of a gentleman who was not merely a shipbuilder, but
who had dealt practically with the question for a great num-
ber of years. But he saw in his place the hon. member for
Birkenhead (Mr. Laird), a man of great experience in these.
matters, and with all deference to the Comptroller of the-
Navy, far more competent to advise the house than that offi-
cer was on this question. Capt. Halsted, who in 1861 and.
1862 gave a series of lectures at the United Service Institu-
tion, arrived at almost the same conclusions. Against these
opinions the Admiralty dwelt on the prodigious ravages
caused by splinters of iron when broken or smashed by shot.
That statement, however, was only founded on the experi-
ments of au old vessel of 20 tons burden, called the Ruby;
and he baieved that, about 16 years ago, was fired at by 68-
pounders, and of course sent to smithereens. He believed,
however, that her plates were not thicker than a half-crown.
He should like to know on what other authority the Board
of Admiralty were making these extraordinary assertions.
He should refute this statement by their own officers, before
a committee of the house. Capt. Hall, who commanded the
Nemesis, an iron vessel, was examined, and was asked to
state his experience of her in China. He stated that several
wooden steamers were employed en the same service,and they
were invariably obliged to lay up for repairs, while he could
repair the Nemesis in 24 hours. On being asked if he had an
opportunity of judging of the effect of shot on iron vessels, he
said the Nemesis on one occasion vv as struck 14 times, and one
shot came in on one side and went out on the other. Never-
theless there were no splinters, the shot having passed right
through, just as if you had put your finger through a piece
of paper ; and that nothing could be more easily stopped
than these holes. Another witness, Capt. Charlwood, gave
evidence which was the same in substance. He (Mr. Lindsay)
believed that armour plates, of themselves, were anything
but a source of strength to a ship. He was rather of opi-
nion that the great weight of armour plates tended to
weaken them and to make them top heavy. The Admiralty
brought forward a witness, a Frenchman, to prove that
wooden ships were equally strong for the purpose. But
they had no occasion to go to France for a witness. On that
subject he would refer them to any master shipwright in
their own dockyards. There was nothing so difficult as to
fasten the stern frame of a ship, on account of the tremen-
dous vibration caused by the movement of the screw. On,
the Edgar, a9O gun ship of 600-horse power, the vibration
oro N will
and the strain were so great that theznenasgtinere
shipwright
himself said, " For God's sake, stop this
drive the sternpost out of the ship." The nett question was
whether it would be desirable to build iron ships in. her Ma-
jesty's dockyards,
supposing it to be desirable to build them
at all. The objections brought against private contractors
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wore-Ist, that they did not keep to their agreements •
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.gentiemanrerceeaded a
at
lenlegttthe;
denying them altogether, stating that the delay which had
occurred in the construction of vessels for the Government
was due to the interference of the Admiralty, and affirming
the writer's belief that the cost of building no one of the
iron-plated vessels had remunerated the shipwright.
From the Thames Shipbuilding Company he (the lion.
member) had also received a long letter exculpatory of the
charges which had been made against them with special re-
ference to the Warrior. (This the hon.gentlewan also read.)
To all the accusations in question the company gave
a complete and indignant denial. They challenged the Ad-
miralty to produce a single instance either of slovenly work
or of bad material in their ship ; and they denied that they
had ever contracted to build her for £210,000. The altera,
dons made by the Admiralty were so serious, that the course
the company had adopted was to propose that the Govern.-
inent should simply repay them their costs out of pocket and
121 per cent. on the outlay—an allowance which they did not
consider at all too great. That course was at once adopted,
only the Admiralty reduced the rate of profit to 5 per cent.,
which the company agreed to take. They admitted that
even if the Government had made noalterations in the plans
the time they had in the first instance asked for was too
short by two or three months; but they oontended that
the alterations which had been made amounted to so great,