The Sun.
London, England, 1839-08-06 00:00:00

TETFSDAV, AUGUST 6, 1839.

rate :slid useful information upon the state of the north•
ern part of England he sheuld have much satis!action
in doieg so, and he hoped it would be received in
the same spirit in which it should he commu-
nicated : arld whatever might be done by Government
with the view of suppressing
the disturbances of the
disAfeeted, be was quite sure the Noble Viscount
might depend on the active support of the great bulk of
the well-disposed people in those troubled districts.

Lord MELBOURNE gave the Noble Lord great
credit for the genuine and candid mann..-r in which he
had Made. his statement, and he was quite confident
that .T Whatever measures her Majesty's Ministers
Might adopt to preserve the peace and prevent d;stur-
hances, they would have the active .support of the Noble
Lord, and not only of him, but of every Member of their
Lordships' House, as well as of the thinking portion of
the British community.—( Cheers.) He was perfectly
aware that proceedings of the dangerous, formidable,
and alarming character to which the Noble Lord had
alluded had taken place, and he was aware that many
parts of the country in that respect were in a
state by no means satisfactory ; on the contrary,
that they were pregnant with that which could
not but excite considerable apprehensions. He was not
ignorant of what had taken place at Stockport, and
which he could not but regret. With respect to the
placard, the Noble Lord had not read the whole of it,
but it was very artfully worded. It stated that if an
unprovoked attack was made upon the people peaceably
assembled, there was a right in the people to resist
that attack by force. Now he did not exactly know
how that was to he contradicted. But he agreed that
the object of that placard was unquestionably to urge
to a resistance, and to a violation of the public peace.
At the same time he begged to observe that with the
legal powers that existed in this country of freedom of
speech in every man, in order to be extremely inflam-
matory, and in order to excite the greatest violence and
crime, it was by no means necessary to break the law,
It was not so entirely the breach and violation of the
law that was to be feared as it was the use, the
abuse, and the pushing to the utmost those powers and
privileges which the people legally possessed. The Noble
Lord had urged him to take some stronger measures
on the subject than had already been taken under the
direction of his Noble Friend the Secretary of State,
for the Home Department. He did not know what
stronger measures it was possible for a Government to
take, or what greater securities could be counted upon.
The military force of that part of the country had been
very considerably augMented, and means had been
taken to inform the Magistrates that every exertion
should be made to support them in their efforts to pre-
serve the public peace. It was quite impossible in
every part of the country where danger might be appre-
hended, to have a force stationed which should at once
be able to represS any disturbance ; all that could be
done was to use the force that was available, in the most
speedy and. efficient manner, according to the danger
that presented itself.
The Marquis-of LONDONDERRY wished to
know if the Goveinment had set their faces against
arising a yeomariry corps in the disturbed districts, to
aid in suppressing outbreaks, and if any additional force
was intended to be ,sent to Stockport

Lord MELBOURNE understood that a despatch
had been sent off ordering a military force into Stock-
port. It was certainly the intention of her Majesty's
Ministers to set their faces against raising yeomanry
corps generally to preserve the peace ; but it was im-
possible for him to pledge himself as to what might in
Any particular instance, at any particular time, be ne-
cessary to be done.
In answer to a question from Lord C H ARLEN' I LLE,
. Lord DUNCANNON said he was informed that it
would be impossible to lay on the table the medical
certificates respecting the health of prisoners tried at
Tullamore, which the Noble Lord had moved for in
February, last, in the terms of that motion, as the
state of the books that had been kept would not supply
the information.
Lord CHARLEVILLE said that he knew that
some of them, one in particular relating to a convict of
the name of Coghlan, could be produced.
The Marquis of NOR MAN BY said there could be
no objection whatever to the production of any that
existed.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)

BILL.

Lord MELBOURNE moved the Order of the Dly
for the third reading of the Municipal Corporations
(Ireland) Bill.
The Marquis of CON VNGHAM, after a few
observations, said that England and Scotland had
obtained their full measure of reform in their
Corporations—why, then, should Ireland be so
treated as she was in this Bill. As an Irishman
he protested against the Bill, in what was called
its amended shape, and he deeply regretted that
their Lordships had not taken tkat opportunity of set-
ting at rest that long discussed and much wished for
reform.

The Earl of HADDINGTON said the refusal of

that much wished for and long discussed measure did
not rest with their Lordsbips, but with those who re-
fused to accept it.—(Hear, hear.) He was one of
those who entirely concurred in the first proposition
which had been made upon the subject. He agreed
that the Corporations should be abolished, but he did
not think that society in that country was in a fit state
to reconstruct others. He regretted that it was im-
possible to adhere to that determination, but they had
not been supported by public opinion in such a manner
as to allow them to do so. They had now passeci a
Tithe Bill, and he hoped that quetioa was satisfactorily
ie t tleiliutsheey washado, i i
?ionwg
to a
s!'totioc ther-lt
w inquestion operation,o t an
thatd
Muni-
cipal Corporations by the Bill which they were about
to pass, according to the best of their wisdom. He
would beg to remind the Noble Marquis who had
spoken last, that the municipal franchise for Scotland
was the 101. Parliamentary franchise. Would he be
willing to accept the same for Ireland ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it was not
quite correct to say that their Lordships had done all
that was in their power to settle the question of Muni-
cipal Reform for Ireland. Their Lordships had seen it
proper to adopt one amendment which he had reason to
believe would not be accepted by the other House of
Parliament—in fact, one which had rendered it impos-
sible for them to receive it. He would not say that the
intention of those who proposed and supported that
amendment was to defeat the Bill, but such he feared
would be the effect of it.

Lord FITZGERALD awl VESCI had good reason
for believing that the opinion of the Noble Marquis was
erroneous; and he spoke upon the authority of one who
was a high authority upon such a question, and he said
the amendment alluded to was no breach of the pri-
vileges of the House of Commons. He for one could
never consent to take from the Grand Jury, an old and
recognised body, the power to levy rates, and give it to
a new body. That was a power which most certainly
was in their Lordships' discretion. He could quote va-
rious precedents for their Lordships taking such a
course ; but on those occasions, probably, it was
not thought necessary to find out a pretext
upon which to hang the rejection of a Bill. He could
not allow the Noble Marquis to monopolize the whole
feeling for the welfare of Ireland—ha bad as deep a
feeling for the welfare of that island as the Noble
Marquis, though he took a different view of the means
of benefiting the country of his birth. The Noble
Viscount now said the amendment which took the
appointment of the Sheriffs from the Town Councils
was an insuperable objection to the Bill—yet the first
Bill which was offered for their Lordship's considera-
tion retained that power in the Crown. Why, then,
was
not thereitnos,raul an insuperable objection to the Bill, if it
was

The Marquis of CONYNG HAM explained. He
had no wish to arrogate to himself all feeling for Ire-
land. What he said was, that as an Irishman be
ELtßakOenUwßiNthEthseaidpiii the
very Nobly Lord
iy. Thhade
stated deeply regretred•the course their Lordships had adopted
with respect to the Bill.
alttel(sletolule course Viscount
MELBOURNE
Bill was introduced in the other House, giving the
power to the Town-Council to appoint the Sheriffs
but it was altered in that House ; and when it came up
to th.•ir Lordships it contained no such porer—the ap-
pointment of Sheriffs being vested in the Crown. He
had not stated that the amendment was an indispensible
objection to the Bill, but that it was a strong one ; and
he thought so still. On general principles he would
concur in the vesting the appointment of Sheriffs in the
Crown ; but under present circumstances—under the
circumstances in which Ireland was placed—he thought
it not only expedient, but prudent, to vest that right in
the Town Councils.
Viscount GO RT requested tbeirLordships not to sup-
port
which would be legislating
a measurefor interested
agitators, whose aim it was to separate Ireland from this
independent
noingham which,
tghe Noble
the pro-
, cpe oao uts
ienodtor
.yc,
Corporations
pu 100
rital ol
toi
nsot
rsa
tiinto establish
totb
tethheee
toe
oi
iformevils
neseoff
or
fiß intonltrreo
land,
unn
cdi
,n
was a flourishing town, but
which since then, had been involved in danger and bVeifsocroeunittsrieefeerorrepteirattoionth, e ca: e i r
tur-
moil, between the Radicals and the Chartists, and had
p
; and
uire still augmented forces to kee_
the people
t„to„aboledkreepcit in cheek by the militar d
y an the police

in order.
The Duke of WELLINGTON
suggested that it
would be better to withdraw the Bill at once than send
it down again to the House 9f Commons.
The question was 000 put, an 4 1 e DM was read a
third time and passed.
PENNY POSTACit.
After the presentation of several
petitions in favour

. _
of this [measure,
viscount ALF.,I4BOUIiNE rose
to Move the second
reading of the Bill. It was, he remarked, a Bill which
would give the Treasury much larger powers, with
respect t? communication by letters, than that depart-
meot at pre4er4 posceP94. Ztwould enable them to
diminish thc, rate a 61ifirgL3 An iPtter:4, to depart from
the present system 4 Charging ,13.3' WkigLt, awl tp re•!
organise the whole system of Parliamentary and official
freaking. Considering the objects of the measure
which theii• Lorcishio V‘',.t. ,cal-ed upon to sanction,

this Bill must be 'regarded as one of the greatest im-
portanec. It would establish an uniform rate of
postage, with perhaps the addition of demanding
that the letters should be paid for in the first
instance, but it was more likely that persons
would be allowed to exercise the option of
paying for letters on transmitting them or on receiving
them. From the petitions that had been presented in
both Houses, from the Reports that had been laid be-
fore.them, and from the discussions that had taken
place in the other House, he concluded that the objects
of the measure, and the advantages expected to result
from it, must necessarily be familiarly known to almost
all of their Lordships. He believed the genera! advan-
tages that would result from the measure were admitted
by all who had spoken upon it—aven by those who had
the greatest doubts of its practicability under the pre-
sent circumstances of the country. No doubt, as re-
garded commercial intercourse, the diffusion of know-
ledge, and the interchange of social feeling=, the ad-
vantage to be derived from a more easy communication
by letter between different parts of the country, and
between the empire itself and foreign nations, would be
in the highest degree beneficial. To illustrate the ad-
vantages of increased facilities of internal communica-
tion, he could not refer to higher authority than the
Noble Lord (Ashburton) opposite, who stated in his
evidence before the Parliamentary Committee, " I

always thought the duty on the means of communicat-
ing information to be one of the worst of our taxes.
Unfortunately, many of our taxes are injurious,
but there is none so injurious as a tax upon
letters. It is a tax upon the conversation of
people at a distance. You might as well tax
the words spoken between men on the Royal
Exchange, as the communication by letters that take
place between people residing in Manchester, Liver-
pool, London, or any other places."—( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He ( Lord Melbourne) certainly could not
go to such a length. He did not think that the post-
age was the most infamous of our taxes ; indeed it savour-
ed a little of the Noble Lord's characteristic finesse and
subtlety when he said it is just the same to tax the con-
versation between pesple at the Royal Exchange as the
correspondence in letters between Liverpool and Lon-
don.—(Laughter.) But he quite agreed with the prin-
ciple advocated by the Noble Lord and by others.
The evils of the present tax, and the advantages that
would accrue from its removal, were in all probability
exaggerated ; but at the same time it would be
impossible not to admit that very great ad-
vantages would result in a commercial and so-
cial view from rendering the means of correspondence
more easy than they wee now. They should also con-
sider the extent to which the payment of the duty was
now evaded by illicit and contraband conveyances of
letters, to put a stop to which it was absolutely neces-
sary that the present rates should be reduced, and that
to a very great amount, perhaps, by not less than that
contemplated by this measure, or the well organized
system of illicit correspondence now at work, almost
with perfect safety, would not be given up. Upon the
ground of securing the collection of the revenue in let-
ters, he thought their Lordships ought to support this
measure. All nations, but more particularly this nation,
bad made the post a source of revenue. Indeed, when
a few hundred thousand pounds were likely to be
wanted, he had heard a Right Hon. Friend of his say,
" Oh, the letters will bear another penny !"—(Laughter.)
In legislating on the present question, their Lordships
would deal with a very large portion of the revenue of
the country. Widely different views had already been
advanced upon this measure. On one side there were
the most sanguine calculations, that, by the reduction of
the postage to one penny, the quantity of letters would
be increased to such an immense extent, that any appa-
rent deficiency in the revenue would be made up. On
the other side, it was averred that the whole of the re-
venue derived from the Post-office, about 2,200,0001.,
was at stake, and that if this measure were carried, that
amount, lost by its operation, would have to be supplied
by the finances of the country out of the public funds.
Both views, he (Lord M.) had no doubt, were ex-
aggerated—even the most sanguine calculations of the
gentleman who was the author of the measure did not
go beyond saying that the present number of letters
would be quintupled, and then there would be a loss of
300,0001. to the Revenue. He (Lord M.) would not
venture any prediction, but he had very great doubt as
to whether the increase of the letters would make up
what the Revenue would Ilse. Therefore, they had
called upon Parliament, and Parliament had responded
by a pledge, that it would make up any loss the Revenue
might sustain. Their Lordships were now in possession
of a statement of the income and expenditure of the
country ; lie believed they had also had before them an
estimate, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of
what the Revenue for some years to come was likely to
be. Unquestionably, for the two last years the ex-
penditure bad exceeded the income—not because
the latter had fallen off, but because the former had in-
creased. But he thought that a surplus or a deficiency
of 300,0001. or 400,0001. should not be a matter to
excite either joy or despondency when we considered
the fluctuations that must take place in the course of the
immense concerns in which this country was engaged,
and when we regarded and compared the extent of its
commerce and its monetary system, its trade, its specu-
lations and its enterprise, amidst such vast affairs,
alternations from prosperity to adversity, and from ad-
versity to prosperity, must be looked for as unavoidable
and inherent in the nature of things, and one which we
could not render equable or certain. From the speeches
that had lately been made before both Houses, he feared
it was more likely that our expenses would be increased
thewHear.}jeer," from the Duke of
Wellington.) The Noble •Ditle— had -been con-
tinually pressing on them arguments of very great
weight on the inadequacy of the naval and military es-
tablishments of the country. The Noble Baron oppo-
site, in alluding to the affairs of Canada the other night,
strongly insisted, on a principle not easily refuted, upon
measures which would cause a considerable outlay of
public money. Tue Noble Lord, the Member for Li-
verpool, in the other House, had, in his own name, a
most respectable authority, and also in the name of a
most influential and important body, stated that
in the next Session he should submit to the con-
sideration of Parliament a measure for obtain-
ing some assistance to enable the Church of Eng-
land the better to discharge its duties to the public.
Noble Lords opposite connected with Scotland were
always pressing with great force some measure with re-
spect to Scotland, and on adverting the other day to
those sources of information that told them of what
passed in both Houses of Parliament, he (Lord Mel-
bourne) saw that a Right Hon. Gentleman in the other
House, a person of great influence, had said that he
trusted the day was not far distant when, in the most
conspicuous part of the metropolis, a splendid esta-
blishment would be erected for the purpose of collect-
ing pictures and statues. These were the principal ob-
jects that were being continually pressed for, besides a
hundred oth, rs, many of them very sound and reason-
able, all of them very specious and captivating. The
disposition of Parliament continually to press for
changes and improvements, was one unquestionably not
favourable to public economy. With respect to increas-
ing our naval establishments, be would not on the pre-
sent occasion say more than that was the first thing to
be considered, because it related to the maintenance of
the integrity of the empire and the security of the coun-
try. With respect to those matters of religion, he also
considered they were deserving of the greatest possible
attention ; but at the same time with respet to them he
thought it was necessary to consider what was practicable
and what was not ; and whether the evils which these
parties sought to remedy were greater than the evils
which would be produced by any great and onerous
application of capital to those purposes. He wished the
other House would look more to the general finances of
the country, and not each man to be so fond of his own
particular object, Well, then, with respect to this mea-
sure, it had been said, how can you venture to tamper
with so large an amount of the public revenue ?—( Hear.)
He certainly felt the force of that argument, but his answer
to it was this : —ln the first place there was a general con-
currence of all parties in demanding a measure of this
nature. That demand could not be resisted with success,
and the feeling on this subject was so strong that it corn-
vlied those in the other House who generally acted with
Noble Lords opposite, to do that which they were, of
course, extremely unwilling to do—to make it an
" open question."—( Hear, and a laugh.) There were
" open questions" on one side of the House as well as the
other. He believed nothnts was so unparliamentary as
to call one body in the House " The Opposition," besause
that would imply that there was one body bound together
in the spirit of opposition ; but it was found that persons
did act together, and that among those persons there were
what was called " open questions." But the other
side of the House did not call them " open ques-
tions"—they said very delicately, " this is not a party
question"—( Laughter)—and when that was declared,
then gentlemen were enabled to declare what were their
feelings and opinions, and what were the feei-
ings and opinions of their constituents. When, there-
fore, their Lordships considered the measure was in itself a
good measure, and attended with great benefit and advan-
tage, and when they found it was supported by persons of
all parties, of all characters, and of all descriptions, he did
think it was fit to trust to the pledge of Parliament, that
they would give those powers necessary for carrying into
effect this measure. He believed the measure would
prove beneficial to the country ; and if it did increase the
general prosperity of the country, it would unquestionably
be of advantage, even if they should substitute a tax which
might appear more burthensome. And that, were the an_
swer to be given to the short question put by a Noble
Lord opposite, that if this tax were repealed where
would they find another that would be less burtbensomc
on the poor classes, he (Lord Melbourne) contended that
if it conduced to the general advantage it would unques-
tionably conduce to the advantage of the poorer classes
among the rest of her Majesty's subjects, and in that case '
the tax substituted would in fact be less burthensome to the
lower classes of society. These were the grounds on
which he proposed this Bill, and he did so with full confi-
dence, relying on the pledge that was given in the pream•
ble of the Bill, and with the full certainty that that pledge
would be redeemed ; because lie was certain this country
would never ask for a measure for which it was not prepared
to pay the price, nor would it demand a measure of which
it was not prepared to take the consequences. The Noble
perd sencluded by moving that the Bill be read is c(gatni
tins.

The Duke of WELLINGTON sincerely wished this
bad beers such a measure as the Noble Viscount had in the

4y•.: ~.

opening of his address described it ; and that_ in point of
feet the Government had at its disposition: ahe power of
carrying it into execution without calling Upon the House
to come to a vote upon the question ? He-Xthe Duke of
Wellington) had never addressed their Lordships with
more anxiety and pain than he felt on that occasion, and he
never felt more reluctance than he then did to give the
vote which he should give upon this question, and to ad.
vise their Lordships upon the course which, in his opinion,
they ought to follow. The Bill stated in the preamble
to have for its object the establishment of a uniform and
low rate of postage. There could be no doubt of the
expediency, and indeed the,necessity of establishing in the I
country a low and uniform rate of postage. But if the
object was only to reduce expence of postage, and to esta-
blish an uniform rate, he imagined the power of the Go- I
vernment was sufficient for that purpose already. As
to this particular plan, which had been called Mr. Row-
land Hill's plan, and which he was disposed to admit was
of all the plans that had been proposed, the most likely to
be successful, he was afraid it would not be entirely suc-
cessful. Ile thought, in the first place, there was a great
mistake in supposing that the reduction of the price of •
postage, down to a penny even, to be paid on the delivery
of the letter, would induce a great deal of literary cor-
respondence. He had for many years had the advantage
of some kno-sledge of such a system in the army, and he
could safely assure their Lordships that the small quantity
of correspondence carried on by soldiers was quite curious,
notwithstanding the facilities they had of corresponding.
In fact, they had only to pay one penny fur a letter to the
drum-major, who managed the post-offiee department in
all regimental fie would mention a remarkable instance,
which would show that it was not at all certain, because
the postage would be reduced to a penny, that correspond-
ence would be more frequent,and that there would be more
letter-writing. In a Highland regiment of 1,000 men, it
was positively ascertained that in the coarse of six or seven
months, only sixty-three or sixty-four letters were written.
Now as to the application of this plan to the country.
They all knew that the post-office was sometimes six or
seven, or ten or fifteen miles from their houses and many
villages in the neighbourhood. Well, a man would have
to take his letter to the pest-office and bring it from tine
office ; going to the post-office once a day would be half a
a day's work—going there twice a day would be a whole
day's work ; and could it be expected that labouring men
would make such a sacrifice, only because he could send
his letter throug,h the post on payment of a penny ? Then
as to the working of the plan in large towns. It might
work very well in London, where there was a large post-
office, and a great number of people employed to deliver
letters two or three times a day, but in such towns
as Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, and other towns of
great population, where there might be 120,000 or
150,000 inhabitants, and where there was at present only
one post-office existing in the town, other post offices
would have to be established for their accommodation ;
and the consequences would be, that there would be a vast
increase in the administration of the services of the Post-
office, a circumstance which had not as yet been taken into
consideration, as far as he had ascertained. Upon the
whole, therefore, he was afraid the scheme of a low and
uniform rate of postage, and most particularly this scheme
(which, however, he was of opinion was the best of all),
would be found impracticable, on account of the ex-
pense and trouble of carriage. The plan of the Bill,
as stated in the preamble, was departed from by
the clauses of the Bill, because the Treasury were
authorised to adopt any plan they might think proper,
whether a plan by covers or by stamps, or by pre-payment
of money. Certainly the preamble of the Bill was entirely
laid aside. by the pro:isions. He felt it was most desir-
able that a low and uniform rate of postage should be
established. The Treasury having the power conferred
upon them by the other House of Parliament, of adopting
such measures as they might deem necessary, they doubt-
less would consider all the objections which had been

urged against the plan, and adapt such measure as they
thought proper, with a view particulaili:to the object of the
conveyance and receiving of letters. When first the sub-
ject was mentioned in that House, the language of the
Noble Viscount certainly- was, that he considered it a

. -
greet object to secure the revenue, and that he would
not agree to the plan unless the revenue was secured.
And that was the language also used in the other House
of Parliament. But now they had Fot no security. The Noble
Viscount hadapparently no confidence in any calculations, for
he had attempted none. Hear.) The.. Noble Viscount was
contented with the pledge in the preamble of this Act.
Now, when a preamble stated that such a thing was expe•
dient, the enacting part usually should fulfil that obligation.
Here, however, there was in fact no guarantee at all.—
( Hear, hear.) To a guarantee there ought to be two
parties. One party in the present case was the House of
Commons. Who was the other party? Not their Lord-
ships' House, for they could not act in any way w,th regard
to carrying it into execution ; nor the Sovereign, who would
give the Royal Assent to the Bill. To whom was the
pledge given? To the public? Why it was, in truth, no
guarantee at all, particularly when it was considered that
several Hon. Gentlemen in the other House of Parliament,

supporters of the Government, had declared that they
would not consider themselves bound by the pledge. E
the Government bad come down to the House and ex-

pressed a disposition to take into consideration the state of
the finances of the country—the various demands existing
for the services of the country, which had been so well
described by the Noble Viscount—the state of the unfunded
debt—the commercial and the monetary systems; if they
had said the income was not equal to their expenditure—
that they had do means of increasing the unfunded debt,
and proposing the usual course of proceeding, they would
not feel great confidence if their only security were
such a guarantee as this. As to the finances of the country,
he was disposed to say a few words, though there were
some Noble Lords present who were better qualified to
epeak oil that topic, and it was difficult to follow a finan-
cial statement except from a person well versed in the sub-
ject—but he held in his hand a paper, rather curious, and
to which he begged to draw their Lordships' attention.
It represented the state of the revenue and expenditure of
the United Kingdom as follows—for the year ending the
sth April 1840 the revenue was 48,138,000/. ; the expen-
diture 47.958,000/. To this, however, it appeared that a
million must be added on account f Canada—so that
there was a deficiency of 800,0001. or 900 000/. There
must, therefore, be an increase of the unfunded debt to that
amount. What now would be the result of this plan in
April 1840? Why, there would be a deficiency of
2,458,0001. in the revenue. There was a large unfunded
debt now in circulation, much larger than the market
would bear; the interest was falling, and must still fall--
( Viscount Melbourne—" The premium")—true, the pre-
mium. It could not be doubted that the amount of
Exchequer Bills was frequently ton large for the
market ; and their Lordships must be aware of
the state in which the commerce as well as the
monetary system of the country were now placed
and that it would be a great convenience not only to the
Government but to the country at large, to take out of the
market at this time a large amount of Exchequer Bills by
funding part of the unfunded debt, and thus providing some
means of making up, by 1810, the deficiency which they
were quite sure must then exist.--( Hear, hear.) But
besides the drficiency he had stated,] there were some
important items, a new levy for the army, which would, it
was estimated, require 75,000/. additional, only to April,
and by this time next year must require double that sum.
Then there were the advances which was to be made for
Birmingham, and the expense of the constabulary force
to be established in the country, of which the public would
have to pay a portion, and there were different expenses going
on ; so that upon the whole, the Government must expect
a very large deficiency by April 1840.—( Hear, hear.)
Now, if it were proposed to fund, in the usual mode, Ex-
chequer Bills to the amount of 5,000 000/. or 6,000,0001.
much mote would be done to meet the public exigencies
than what the present measure would effect.—( Hear,
hear.) Notwithstanding, however, that he felt so littlo
coafidence in this measure, he earnestly recommended
their Lordships to vote for it.—( A sarcastic kind of
" Ilear," from Lord Brougham.) It was a measure which
was most earnestly looked for by the country, a measure on
which there had been much doubt, and on which there
must be increasing doubt—( Hear, hear)—but there was
not a single clause on which their Lordships could make
any amendment, or upon which they could do anything be-
yond giving a simple negative or affirmative, according to
the conventional rules fur regulating the proceedings be-
tween the two Houses. Supposing that their Lordships
rejected the Bill, the Government had in its hands the
power, and, as it was reported, they had the inclination, to
destroy the whole revenue of the Post-office, and to do
all the evil which could be apprehended from the Bill—
while at the same time that measure of Pest-office admi-
nistration which it was the object of this Bill to effect, and
which it was desirous to see carried into execution, would
be altogether untouched if the Bill did not pass. Under
these circumstances, with pain and reluctance, he meant
himself to vote for the Bill, and he earnestly recommended
to their Lordships to support it.
Earl RIPON said ho acquiesced with great hesi-
tation, with great uneasiness, and with no little alarm,
in the proposition of the Noble Duke to permit
this Bill to pass through the present and future
stages. He confessed that, however desirous he
might be of seeing the sates of postage reduced to the
lowest possible limit, he could not look to the proposal of
this rash experiment, on the finances of the country, at
this time, but with the greatest anxiety and alarm.—
( Hear, hear.) lie considered the Bill objectionable, not
only upon account of the mode, but the times in which it
was proposed to carry it into effect. Nothing but his
respect for the judgment of the Noble Duke could induce
him to vote for the second reading of the Bill. The mea-
sure itself was a very clumsy contrivance. If it were fit
that a measure of this sort should be adopted—involving
as it did such extensive risks—itshould have been adopted on
the fullest consideration by the Legislature, both of principle
and detail. But this Bill, though it affected to announce
a principle in its preamble, contained no details at all ; it
transferred the tampering with a large branch of the public
revenue to the Treasury. It was competent for the Trea-
sury to say that the reduction should be to a halfpenny, or
that it should be no more than to twopence. "isNoble but
Friend was aware that this was an unwise measure;with
he yielded to the pressure from without. Then
regard to the power of franking, certainly
be he
ca red
recollected
nothing for such a privilege; but it was
Houseso e
of Parlia-
that that power was given to the two
ment for public purposes. Why then
should
depend upon the Treasury ? That, however, that power
was the state of was a minor
consideration ; It's great embarrassment
the revenue. They must remember that. they. were now
dealing with an income that to
of 1650,000
make up that revenue the_e 1., and
number of letters
must be at least pass.
ing through the Post-office
druplcd. He had no bow were in time such
alight be the case, but
doequa-
ubt that ••
ow they to bear the
loss to the revenue in the mean time? If they had
surplus, if they had not an actual deficiency, then he would
have no
hesitation in running the risk, as he had often
done before;but the revenue was in a most unfavourable
state; but that did not alarm him so much as the cooetaat
increase of the expenditure of the countr-c. Any man,
with two eYe in bis head* m,;;&; ale that any reduction
in Iltsa;peaattara was perfectly impossible-astay, in fact,
there must be a progressive is:a-cease. The diminiShs
erg of the debt, without a surplus, was utterly hopeless—
! nay, within the fast four ye4rs, the interest upon it s,ai,l
risen no less than 653,0091. He knew that c,.sa partt c f

EVENINC; EDITI t.

that wen awibutabte to the twenty mitliens g t•en or the
abelitien of siaverte—( Hear, hear') That was a wise
measure and a good cue, and one in which he mo=t
heartily joined. He crey cited it for the purpose of
shoee, ;he impossibility of retrerichine- the expenditure for
interest to the amount of 29,443,000/. must be provided
for—no ecorenny'even of the most cheese-paring character
could reduce that. Then could they possibly economise
I in the establishments of the Army, the Navy, or the
iOrdnance? On the contrary, those estimates had been
increased, and looking at the state of society at home,
and the operations we were carrying on abro,,d, they
must still further increase. We were engaged in the
most gigant:e war ever undertaken in India by the coun-
try—the difiinuities in which would commence when suc-
cess begun. By the supineness of Government, and by a
succession of blunders on the part of Sir John M'Nell, we
were now actually at war with Persia—by these blunders
we had driven Persia into the arms of Russia. We were
extending cur distant possessious by establishing Colonies
in New Zealand and Australia, and we had taken posses.
ion of a fortress in the Red Sea. What again was the
state of Canada?—a regular succession of forts was neees-
szpvcfnoc.
for protectionwhat
was; that s
tcould
of not
the bNhE
eodr
North-East
withouttiou Bound
graerayt
• question—also the North-West Boundary question,
which might he opened at any time. Again, and that was
since the estimates had been printed, in what state were
our relations with China? If
the Chinese
Government
embeandt
were engaged that we should pay two millions, he did not say
thatp ;t•
'vy deterc'
silvered ; btfueotr pu
th a supposing
to
immense G
theq
uoapniut
quantity
t yo
trade,teai
then
eweeh
must
we rcouired, and could that be done without inconvenience
into consideration could any Minister
tinhetsleiecii-irrceusmensttansetaetse of, ourele.oney market? Taking all
mhoild,
tsoi?it aliheopfeelfto raallny
car
ee
sdeucdtiloffineutintioesur
agn
area
dt
aensgtearbsliahs;
sti-oneiv that he hardly knew how he should justify himself
thea
timehe w
ret
jos tale
moats tsiunitper
to ingthteh..!csa se. tßii.
If He
ehtehy had
ough
reserved the measure until next year the Govern-
meat would have had an opportunity of considering every
part c-f the measure, and of preparing and regulating
the details ; and they might at the same time execute what
they would now only pledge the House to do. He looked •
upon the pledge as a complete absurdity.—( Hear, hear.)
He defied any man of sense to place his finger upon any
item of taxation upon which the Government could with
propriety lay an additional duty. Would they select the
Customs, which they had been reducing for years that
the manufacturer s might have their articles at the cheapest
rate ? Would they select luxuries, of which they had
been reducing the duties in order to increase their con-
sumption ? Or articles of the manufacture of other coun-
tries, in violation of principles which they bad been
strainieg every nerve to establish, to remove everything
like a prohibit cry duty ? Or the assessed taxes? Would
they renew the hretse-tax cr the window-tax, off which
they had taken 501. per ccrt ? Would they once more
make the peer cottager pay far his house? He believed it
was intenied by some to substitute a property tax, but he
did not know weetl--r the other House would be prepared
to adopt it. He believed, however, the wisest financier
would fiai it impossible to say where a tax of 1,500,0001.
could be with propriety imposed. He admitted that, ab-
stractedly considered, the reduction of the Post- office duty
would be productive of great advantage, but he protested
aganst the ex.2essive baste with which Government was now
rushing on with the measure. They were making a rash
experiment, and that several months, according to their
own statement, before they should want to carry it into

practice.
Lord BROUGHAM said the Noble Lord oppcsite had
entered into a comprehensive statement about ludian
affairs, including Runjeet Sing and best Nlahornmed ;
and also the affairs of Canada. He had left nothing un-
touched except the Post-office question—( Laughter)—and
perhaps the Paella of Egypt, and the Turks.—( Laughter.)
He ( Lord B.) did not deny that there was a comprehen-
sive connexion between general finance and may measure
which might entail a loss of the revenue. But he would
say that the Neble Viscount, in introducing the subject,
had acted but fairly as head of the Treaaurv, and justly
towards the House and the country, in Inal:.ing the plain
and candid statement of accounts which he had laid before
them. That staterneet gave him ( Lo:d Brougham),
and no doubt it would also give the country,
greater confidence in the measure. He ( Lord B.) had
presented-a number of petitions in favour of the measare___.
from corporations, magistrates, from teachers, and' from
mercantile men chiefly—in short, petitions from the va-
rious classes in society ; and the arguments and facts
of those petitions all went to justify the measure proposed
by his Noble Friend. The Noble Lord ( Ripon)had argued
that the whole Post-office revenue was in jeopardy. That
revenue was 1,500,000/. ; but the Noble Lord had con-
fised his argument to only 200,0001. of. it, that being the
less which it was apprehended this measure would cause.
He might with a rnuab justice state that his Noble Friend
was placing in jeopardy the whole of the 48,000,0001. he argu-
ments which
formed the revenue of the country. Amongst t
against the measure they had one Irons the Noble
Duke opposite—that in a reg;tneut of 1,000 men there were
sent by the post only 65 letters in six months. Nov he
(Lord B.) wished to speak of the military with nit pos-
sible respect, but he must beg leave to say that a windier
was not a letter-writing animal.—( Laughter.) A soldier
would fight, and watch, and obey commands naturally, for
habit had made those duties second nature, but he would
not naturally take up his pea and write a letter. A soldier
did not correspond on military subjects, but he sometimes
corresponded on amatory subjects—(Laughter)—not with
persons at a distance, but generally with those with whom
he might as well communicate by word of mouth.—(Loud
laughter.) His Noble Friend had said the Scotch sol-
diers wrote more letters than other soldiers. He believed,
that the Lowlanders wrote more letters than the Hig'nlenae.
era, for they were a better educated class of men, nut the
case of the Noble Duke proved too much. If racily ti out
of one thousand soldiers wrote once in six months,
it followed that 24 out of 25 never wrote. Most pro-
bably a great number could not write at all ; but this
1
was net the case of the army g,eenerally. In the month
of February 1838, the nunther of letters which passed
through the London 1):-.st-c•ffice from soldiers was 2,410;
the aggregate nernber was 188,000, of which the f-aoih
belonged to the soldiers, who, though not writing-letter
animals by nature, were yet induced to write by the penny
rate of postage. He was sure if the inhabitants of . any
other district, not mercantile, were selected, they waeold
not be found to write letters within the same peri.ed, to
the amount of I in 200, while the soldiers wrote
cwerutnet.! ioersaan,
While our Post-office charged 1,000 per
average of ad. for the delivery of each le' coy, the Post_
office of France charged but 500 per cent„ or 44.. The
consequence. was, •that in twenty years the Postoffie
revenue in that country had increased from a little- morce
than 19,000;000 francs to 35,500,00 ti.rancs. Yet France
was a much less mercantile coun'ty than ours, still cur
Post-office revenue ad. not in that timo incocascd,
though cur trade, wealth, and pepulatioa Lad, while
those of the other eountry had been almost station-
ary. Still France charged too much. Our presce,a
sy item had the doubly bad effect of deterring, be the
high prices, those who would write, and of tempting
those who did to smuggle their letters. ikst.vvuoffiucide
now state some other facts. When the Dubli;l
reduced their rates to 2d, the authorities 'acre in despair
they calculated the income of 100,000/, then derived from
it, would fail 20,000/., but the reedit was that the letters
multiplied so much that the revenue from that branch in-
bc rueragshe dw teor
elraeod,ouoe te),/i.
fr
oTrrll 1 e2dl.
.o ct aolylPliv,ole.si- otsffibtielcieinrtatetereressa
soon more
ha
than doubled The
postage numbs the
postage from Stroud to Knaresworth, in Gloucestershire,
had been reduced from 4d. to Id. ; the number of letters
consequently had sextupled. Front this it might be seen
that the facts were all on their side. This Bill, he consi-
dered, would be of the greatest importance. He should
regard the increase of letters as a most satisfactory
index of the progress of society ; it would show an
increase of the educated, industrious, active-mind-
ed, spisiced, adventurous classes of the population.
In short, he should weary their Lordships, were he to read
over all the incalculable advantages of letter-writinso in-
dependent of its extensive bearing on the vast concerns of
trade. Many letters that might have been productive of
mercantile speculations, had no doubt frequently not been
written on account of the expense of postage ; and he had
no doubt, therefore, there would be abundant proof, in the
increase of the revenue, of the benefit of a low rate of
postage, indirectly as tea as directly; When he consia
dered the great increase of population, as well as its 'es.
creased wealth and activity in all directions, which ;could
be greatly facilitated by this plan of postage,. hie, fears on
behalf of the revenue, he confessed, came vso.Din a very
moderate compass. The population was increasing at the
rate of one and a half per cent. a year, and each person
paid upon an average about 2/. a yea,: to the revenue.
Well, supposing a population of '44,000,000 being in-
creased to 26,000,000, there "could be something like
4,000,000/. more. One sacss; as to the finances of the 1
country. He ( Lord Brougham) was surprised to hear
the Noble Viscount ond the Noble Duke speak of Canada
as they did, The Noble Duke said Canada had cost
1.000,0001., and was surprised it did not cost more. Now be
eele:sascgolroant:futlhtaot
(Lord Brougham) thought Canada was dear at 1 000,0001. '
andth e
.3..0::
0,
tout/0.
rgairina:tntih.bfeuerili),- :err
tfwhooer
would be
avedeoar
p:
rn:11::::
but the Noble Duke thought Canada was worth infinitely
more than he did. He was quite sure of this, that if
they went on paying 1.000,000/. one year, 2,000,000/.
the
the eyene x oft 3'
evenea r ,
cost so much. The Noble and Learned Lord in COnelu..
distant and useless to the foil,' of keeping a
and manly statement he had made, not shrinking from the
responsibility, nor shrinking' from the statement hisfsolGr nN havingosilde, Friendtbhraotugli brought
Lfieuol rttdhmi this measure.
,Melbourne)easu r e for the
Conciliatory
of what
he thought was the risk that would be run b , the measure,
but stating justly the grounds on which the measure wraes, proposed.
it, LsoordlutSallßtoUneßTufo iN: y
toictehenthaatddlireessweads tabscear liceoduseheab
rudt
We understood him to
contend
iihnattthhee
egasaelleorly
' ythe reduction of postage was not analagous
to the case of the repeal of a tax ; because generally, when
e tax was repealed,
the expense of collecting it was of
course done away with ; but here there would be an in-
creased expense created, owing to the iticreased number
of letters that would be sent by post. As to the general
herv,fits That would accrue from the measure, be was one of
those who had been always sanguine of the beneficial
effects that would be produced by the measure. It bad j
always appeared to him that a tax on the communications
of persons distant from each other was; of all tastes, the
most obnoxious. It interfered with the social happiness
and comforts of society ; and it seriously affected the
literary and scientific class. No doubt, the cost atteuding
the communication of thottght, from one class to another,_use
tended very much to prevent the dissemination. of ful
information. Indeed it had the effect, as he had in another.
correspondence from foreign
between p; mans. Then as to
set the example of
if England
ploOo stated, of stopping, as it were, verbal communications
conntrles, he thought,
foreign countries would :::e
clueing the rates of postage,
the reduction,
;00n
was, that if rectucti-n, -were
not correspondence, the most
Adeehmaadnadt firstao.
ftluolatba:wcpb;;iilt‘i
"so;
jualtdtut and
foreign
left
u opinionou t
of
to 2d. that that
consideration. p important
general demand
the amount was reducedg
purpose, but the
twhoouuln.dhat.nsthwactr
the