The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS, Harem 14.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack, at
Five o'clock.

CHURCH-RATES.

Lord KENYON presented a petition from Crawley, in
Kent, against the abolition of Church-rates.
A Right Rev. PRELATE presented a petition from Welsh-
pool, and several places in Merioneth, to the same effect. He
stated that some of them were signed by Dissenters and by
Roman Catholics.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented similar peti-
tions from Weston, from Mitcham, Milton, Nether Stowey,
Wellington, and a number of other places ; he also presented
a petition from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, complaining of the pro-
visions of the Corporation Act.
Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition in favour of Veto
by Ballot, and one from Llanelly, against the Poor Law
Amendment Act.
The Bishop of LLANDA FF presented a petition from
Abergavenny, praying that their Lordships would not pass a
measure for the abolition of Church-rates, without a substi-
tution of a fund out of the national resources ; he also pre-
sented a petition from Newchurch, in Monmouthshire, and
from several places in Wales, in favour of Church-rates.
The Earl of RIPON presented petitions from Pet-
worth, in Bedfordshire, and other places, against the aboli-
tion of Church-rates. He then said, that as he did not see the
Noble Lord (Lord Glenelg) the Secretary for the Colo-
nies in his place, he would give notice that on Thursday
next, he would ask a question from the Noble Lord as to the
'bourse Government intended to pursue as to the mode in which
the subject of the affairs of Canada would be brought under the
consideration of the House ; and also for an account of the ex-
panses of the Commissioners who had been appointed.
The Duke of BUCC L E UGH presented a petition from
Kettering, in Northamptonshire, against Church-rates.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that the second
reading of a Bill introduced by the Noble Lord opposite, in
reference to the statutes of the University of Oxford, had been
fixed for Tuesday next, and he wished to know if there was
any objection that it should be postponed till after Easter.
Lord L YNDHURST said he had already requested the
Noble Lord to postpone it, but he had not said he would.
It would be impossible for him (Lord L.) to attend unless it
were postponed.
The Duke of WELLINGTON believed an application
had been made by his Noble Friend the Chancellor of Cam-
bridge to have the second reading of the Bill postponed.
The reason why he (the Noble Duke) wished the second read-
ing to be postponed was, that it was always usual on sub-
jects of this sort to consult the views of those whom the measure
was likely to affect, and he had had no opportunity whatever
of consulting the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge on the
subject. He had received the Bill yesterday evening, but bad
not had time to exchange opinions with the Universities. A
few days ought, therefore, to be given to afford the opportu-
nity to the Universities to consider, whether they would take
any means that might be calculated to induce their Lordships
to come to a conclusion on the question one way or other.
Lord MELBOURNE said that the Bill did not affect the
Universities, as Universities, at all ; but only affected the sepa-
rate Halls of the College!. He had sent a copy of the Bill
to the different Colleges, but as there seemed to be this desire
for delay, he wished to know what day the Noble Duke would
name.

Tho Duke of WELLINGTON did not know when it was
proposed that the House should adjourn.
Lord MELBOURNE believed that it usually adjourned
from the Thursday to the following Monday week.
Earl SII A ETES BUR.Y said that the House of Commons
usually adjourned from the Thursday to the following Monday
week, but that this House usually adjourned on the Tuesday
till the following Monday week.
The Duke of WELLINGTON would, then, propose that
the second reading should stand for Friday the 7th of April.
The Bishop of LLANDAFF hoped that it would be
postponed to Tuesday the 11th of April.
Lord RADNOR said that if he did consent to its being
postponed to Tuesday the 11th of April, he hoped the Right
Rev. Prelate r►ould give the measure hi:, support.
The Bishop of LLANDAFF said that he could assure the
Noble Lord he could not give it the slightest support.
It was then fixed that the second reading should stand for
Tuesday, the I Ith of April.
Lord LYNDHURST presented petitions from Haselmere,
F nn'ngley, East Gilbert, Woodbridge, Ipswich, Lostwithiel,
Northampton, and several other places, against the abolition
of Church-rates. The Noble Lord said that the petition
which he had presented from Northampton was from the town
of Northampton, and he understood that a contrary petition
had been presented from the Corporation of Northampton,
and which had teen carried by only a majority of three of the
Councillors.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from
stating the great abuses that existed in the Corporations in Ire.
land, and earnestly praying their Lordships to take the speediest
and most effectual means of thoroughly renovating those
Corporations by passing the Irish Municipal Corporation Bill,
now under the consideration of the Legislature. The petitioners
also prayed their Lordships' attention to the great grievances
they laboured under in respect to the tithes of Ireland. They
stated that in Cashel there were :16 parishes, the duties of
which were done by two curates, who received a salary of
about 2501. a-year, while there was Church property in land
and tithes in those parishes amounting to 7,0001. a-year, to which
they considered their Lord ships' attention ought to be called. The
petitioners stated that the whole force of the British empire
could not compel them to submit to a continuation of this sys-
tem ; therefore they prayed that while there was yet time their
Lordships would accede to a settlement of the Tithes and
the Municipal Corporations. The Noble and Learned Lord
presented a petition from between 20 and 30 most respec-
table surgeons of Armagh, cemplainin- O th elifiiculties they
laboured under in consequence of degrees they bad taken from
colleges, other than that of Trinity College, Dublin, by which
they were debarred of certain privileges--( Hear, hear)—
and praying their Lordships to give their sanction to some
measure calculated to relieve them from those disabilities.
The Noble and Learned Lord next presented a petition from
the Royal Burgh of Dumbarton, praying their Lordships to
pass the Irish Municipal Reform Bill as soon as it reached
their Lordships' House. Also a petition from Dunkeld, in
favour of the establishment of Small Debt Courts in Scotland.
The Noble and Learned Lord then presented petitions from a
great number of places, praying for the total abolition of
Church-rates.
Lord RADNOR presented petitions from Peckham, Shad-
well, Maldon, Croydon, Wellingworth, Solihill, Bloomsbury
Chapel, and about twenty other places, praying for the aboli-
tion of Church-rates.
Lord STRANG FORD presented petitions from Holycross,
Bridgewater, and other places, against the abolition of Church-
rates.

Lord PORTMAN presented several petitions to the same
effect.
Lord RE DE SD ALE presented petitions from Gloucester,
Wilts, Surrey, and other places, to the same effect.
Lord BROUGHAM said that perhaps there would be no
obj(etion on the part of their Lordships to pursue the same
course in respect to the petitions presented for and against
this measure as had been taken when the Reform Bill was dis-
cussed ; he alluded to the enumeration of petitions and signa-
tures to them which had been presented on the subject of Church-
rates, by referring them to the proper authorities, who would
report the numbers to the House.--( Hear.) In respect to the
number of petitions, he had no hesitation in stating that more
had been presented against the abolition of Church-rate than
in favour of it.—( Hear.) But it was not immaterial that they
should know the number of signatures also.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST—And the amount of rates paid by
each.

Lord BROUGHAM said that it would be easy to have
a report furnished of the number of petitions and sig-
natures, but it would be very difficult to procure the
information alluded to by the Noble Lord; and as to the other
subject, he was sure that if the number of petitions against
the abolition of the rate was three or four times the
amount of those in in its favour, yet he was certain that the
signatures in favour of abolition were fifteen or twenty times
the number of those who had signed against the abolition of
the Rates.
A NOBLE LORD asked if the course suggested bad been
adopted in that or in the other House ?
Lord BROUGHAM—In this House.
The Bishop of HEREFORD said that this difference
existed in the nature of the petitions presented for and against
the abolition of Church Rates ; that whilst those in favour of abo-
lition were presented from separate congregations, six or seven of
them being frequently in one town, those presented against
abolition were from separate towns, villages, and counties.
Lord BROUGHAM said that what bad been said by
the Right Rev. Prelate was in confirmation of his ( Lord
Brougham's) statement, and he was sure that the number of
siguatures in favour of abolition would be found greatly to ex-
ceed the others.
Lord LYNDHURST—No.
Lord BROUGHAM said that there would be no difficulty
in making the enumeration, and he would merely mention one
instance in favour of what he stated—it was that one petition
had been presented from Birmingham alone which hal 19,000
signatures.
Lord WH A RNC LIF FE presented a petition from a parish
in Sussex, in favour of Church rates.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the rate-payers in a parish in South Wiltshire,
against Church-rates ; it was signed by the majority,
if the signatures were those of rate-payers ; and the cir-
cumstances connected with the petition, proved that
the Church, under the present laws, was not in that
state of security which some Noble Lords assumed, or shich
could be given to it. He denied that this security existed at pre-
sent, and he would further say that he would never consent to any
measure which would not render it more secure than it
was.—( Hear, hear.) There was an Elustration of its present
insecure state, in the statement of the petitioners, that they
the majority of the rate-payers had for seven years successfully
resisted the payment of rates for the maintenance of the Church.
He would not say whether they had acted properly or
judiciously or not in resisting that payment, but he con-
sidered it to be his duty to call the attention of
their Lordships to this fact, which proved in this one parish__
and the case was similar in many others—that where there
was any disinclination on the part of the rate-payers to
maintain the Church, it need not be maintained by them, and
it was therefore a delusion to suppose there existed under
the present laws that security for the maintenance of the
Church, which ought to exist in every parish in the country.
—( Hear, hear.) It was further stated in the petition that
these circumstances had engendered party-feelings in the parish,
and it was to put an end to these contentions arising from such
a source that he desired some means to:be adopted; but he
would again say that he would not consent to any

measure, unless it 4vould secure the maintenance of the
Churches in every parish in the empire.--( Hear, and cheers.)
The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from Chor-
ley, and other places in Devon, against the abolition of
Church-rates, and in support of the Protestant Church.
The Right Rev. Prelate was proud to say that every labourer
in the parish of Chorley had joined with the clergyman of
the parish, in imploringltheir Lordships not to interfere with
their sacred rights.
WILLS BILL.

LORD L ANGDALE brought up the report of the Com-
mittee on the Wills Bill ; and gave notice that he should
move the third reading on Monday next.
The LORD CHANCELLOR laid on the table two Bills,
one to amend the law relating to trial by jury in Scotland,
and the other to authorise the Lord Chancellor to take affi-
davits in Ireland and Scotland.

MUNICIPAL REFORM (ENGLAND.)
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Cor
poration of Leeds, praying the House to make certain alte,
rations in the English Municipal Reform Bill.
Mr. Crowther presented papers from the Court of Exche-
quer in Ireland.

Mr. Payne presented the Report of the Committee of the
Millbank Penetentiary.
Gardiner's Divorce Bill went through a Committee, and
was reported.
The other Bills on the table were advanced a stage, and the
House adjourned till Thursday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCII 14.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour,
Mr. BAIL LIE appeared at the bar and presented the an
nual Report of the Committee of Management of the Peniten•
tiary,