The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY,-EVENING EDITION,-FEBRUARY 13, 1839

necessary, with a view to the general revision of that
system, that a Committee should be granted, and it would
be necessary to look into the jurisprudence of the Cri-
minal Courts, as well as of their civil establisnment.
With regard to the Sheriffs' Courts, he would not enter
largely upon that subject, because he had brought it
before the House last Session. He contended, however,
that the other House of Parliament should not be allowed
to throw out Bills of very great public importance. With
respect to his Bill of last Session, no reason had been as-
signed by Lord Haddington for throwing it out upon the
second reading. The Sheriffs sit without going to the
public at all ; they consult merely the convenience of them-
selves, and of the profession, and never take the public into
consideration ; they seem to be of opinion that the
people were made for the lawyers, and not the
lawyers for the people. He had written to a gen-
tleman, a friend of his, to go to Neile and Co., the print-
ers, in Edinburgh, and purchase two of these papers for
him, and dissect them. What was the answer? They
told him that he had no business to come there and pur-
chase them : that they were private property, and that
they would not sell them. He would do the Hon, and
Learned Gentleman opposite the justice to say, that he
was not to blame for the existence of this state of things ;
he had always attended to any suggestion which might be
made with the greatest attention, but whenever anything
important or just was in contemplation on this subject,
it was invariably counteracted by some higher autho-
rity. He did not believe the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman opposite bad anything to do with this.
No. It was some power behind the scenes. It seems
fated that whenever any good is intended for us, some countervail.
ing power comes between us and the good. The advocates of Edin-
burgh, by means of these acts of sederunt, levy a tax of upwards of
two millions a year on the inhabitants of Scotland. The lawyers of
Edinburgh pronounce and publish these acts of sederunt altogether
without the knowledge of the people, and this exclusive system is
maintained for the exclusive benefit of the profession. Why should
these gentlemen tax laws ? In this House, if the Chancellor of the
Exchequer wishes to impose a tax, he must move for leave to bring
in a Bill, and that Bill must be read a first, a second, a third: time,
and publicity given to it in every step of its progress. Not so the
lawyers of Scotland. They sit in their Parliament House, and call
themselves Lords of Session ; because we have not had
the sense to deprive them of it, these Lords of Ses-
sions pass their Bills with closed doors ; there is no
watch over them, no Hon. Member for Salford to stop them, be-
cause it is 12 o'clock.—(Hear, hear.) All was done in secret;
those whose persons were to be sweated were never told of it, bu t
those who were to put money into their pockets by it were well
advised of the proceedings. Look at what Jeremy Bentham had
predicted with regard to the improvements which had been pro-
posed for the benefit of Scotland. Not one atom of good, said
Jeremy Bentham, will ever come from those improvements in Scot.
land, because that country is so fettered by the legal profession
that they will prevent it. He would ask the Attorney-General if he
really believed Scotland was only fit to try Jury cases in
Edinburgh? Why may not Juries try cases of the value
of Si quite as properly as cases involving limbs and
life. 'He would relate a case which had happened in the
town which he represented : two boys were apprehended
on a charge of stealing two shirts, the value of 941., and tried by a
Jury ; but if, instead of being stolen, these shirts had been made the
subject of a civil proeeeding, and valued at ninepence, no Sheriff in
Scotland would have impannelled a Jury to try the cause. What
had Lord Brougham said when he abandoned his Bill for the este.
blishment of local Courts ?—`• But for this, and could it go to the
value of 201., I would sweep clean Westminster Hall." The Hon.
Gent. said he quoted from memory, but such was the substance of
what Lord Brougham had said. Why should nut the same system
be introduced in Scotland 2—just because a little more grass would
grow in the streets of Edinburgh than does just now. The counties
at present tried every case but those trenching on the legal pro-
fession of Edinburgh. He would desire to draw the attention of
the Honourable Member for Elgin to what took place in the
county of Perth. In the Court-House of Elgin during last Session
the decrees of the Sheriffs' Substitute were 3,887, and the appeals
to the Sheriff's amounted to 118. Does not this demonstrate that
this system is kept up for the purpose of appointing Edinburgh
lawyers to the sinecure Sheriffships? The civil cases decided by the
Sheriff depute amounted to 2,506, and the criminal cases 213,
these last were the only cases tried by juries : Is net this system
monstrous? He wished the Attorney. General to answer this,
6,000 or 7,000 cases were decided by the Sheriffs' Substitutes, and
3,600 only by the Sherifik. It was in vain to endeavour
to enforce this case more than he had done. He would
state to the House what he had witnessed in 1836 at Glasgow.
He had gone to that city on purpose to see two jury cases tried.
He (Mr. Wallace) had attended the trial of civil cases in Glasgow.
There were several which occupied two or three days each.
What was the reason for all that array ? Simply that the cases
had been instituted in the Session Court in 1834 and tried (in
Glasgow) in 1836—because two years must elapse before any
jury case could be tried which had been instituted in the Court of
Session. What just cause was there assignable for such delay ?
why should there be such a facility afforded to wealthy injustice,
for the prolonging of suits and of thus overcoming the rightful, and
perhaps poorclaimant,through the heavyexpenses thereby incurred ?
It certainly could not be difficult to find a remedy for evils so glaring
and the cause of which he was sure could not be found in
the law of Scotland. He saw no means of effecting this object
but by appointing a Committee. As to the appointment of the
Commission—for the members of which he had the greatest respect
—it was a most unjustifiable eommission in every respect ; for the
members of it had all, if not interests, strong prejudices which
precluded them from impartially considering the subject. It
was most unjust that at a time when almost all monopolies
were abolished, except in the city of London, this monopoly, obnox-
ious as it was, should be allowed to continue. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving the appointment of a Committee to inquire
into the mode of administering justice in Scotland.
The LORD ADVOCATE said the difficulty he felt was not in
answering any point put by his Hon. Friend as a ground for the
Committee, but in selecting one which afforded the slightest ground
for the motion.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) His Hon. Friend
had gone into almost every department of the law of Scotland, with-
out any correct knowledge of the subject , and as he had often said
he wished his Hon.—he could not say his Learned"—Friend—
(A laugh)—had attended the Court of Session for a single month.
He (the Lord Advocate) had attended that Court for thirty years,
and yet he did not pretend to have acquired more knowledge than
qualified him to enter upon the consideration of these extensiye
reforms. And if his Hon. Friend would attend that Court for a
very short time, he would soon see things in a very different light.
What was the end of the motion ? Could his Honourable
Friend be serious in proposing the appointment of a
Committee on the subject ? Why, his Hon. Friend must recollect
that last Session a Committee had been appointed on the subject of
Sheriffs' Courts alone, and on that Committee very few Members
could be induced to attend; and did his Hon. Friend think that
any Member could be induced to attend for the length of time
which the Committee he proposed would occupy in discussing this
most complicated subject ? Now, as to the general statements
which his Hon. Friend had made. His Hon. Friend had said
that there had been no improvements made in the law of Scot-
land since Lord Grenville complained of it. So far from that be.
ing the case, there had been no instance in any country of so many
improvements taking place in the law. Jeremy Bentham has been
quoted against the law of Scotland; but in the whitings of that author
equally strong Insinuations would be found against the law of Eng.
land. Why, since Lord Grenville spoke on this question trial by
Jury had been established in Scotland in civil cases. His Hon.
Friend had asked why trial by Jury should not be established in
Scotland in smaller cases ? Why not in counties ? Why not in every
particular case? His Hon. Friend must be aware of the great
difficulty there was in introducing any system, however excellent,
into a country for the first time. No person could have been more
anxious than he (the Lord Advocate) for the establishment of trial
by Jury in Scotland, but it could not be expected that an institution
would act so well in a country in which it was novel as in a
country where it had been some hundred years established,
It was a great mistake to say that the law of Scotland presented no
good points. There were many cases in which the proceedings
were much' more simple than any of the proceedings in England,
and in which much expense was saved. Tie Court of Session was
not like the Courts in Westminster Hall; it included within itself
not only the Courts of Common Law, but it transacted all the business
that was done here in the Court of Chancery, the Ecclesiastical
Courts, and the Court of Admiralty.—(" Hear, hear, hear."
from Mr. Wallace.) Was his Hon. Friend aware of how many
places had been abolished since Lord Grenville delivered
him peech ? Five Judges of the Exchequer were abolished—one
Judge of the Admiralty—all of whose business was now transacted
in the Court of Session. Four Commissionerships had also been
abolished, and since then the number of Judges had been reduced
from fifteen to thirteen. There had been a vast increase of business
in consequence, as all the business of those abolished is now centred
in the Court of Session. His Hon. Friend was a Member of the
Committee in 1834. and he might have asked any of the witnesses
who were called whether it wen.. possible that any more of the Judge.
ships could be abolished. The Dean of Faculty, a most eminent law-
yer, said that he was the person who recommended the reduction
which had taken place, and before the Committee he stated that he
was very sorry for his recommendation, for the reduction had gone
too far. Other two witnesses, eminent lawyers, had stated that the
reduction had been carried as far as possible. On that ground, he
did not see that his Hon. Friend had made out any case for a Com-
mittee. With regard to the progress of Jury trial in Scotland, he
was ready to admit that it had met with as much difficulty as
it naturally would, where the people were unacquainted with
it; where the lawyers and judges had been brought up
to another system. It would, however, make its way, and no doubt
would much benefit the country. His Hon. Friend complained
that four clauses had been left out of the Sheriffs' Bill of last
Session by the House of Lords, but surely the House would
not hold that any reason for granting a Committee. The House
of Lords had done as they had a perfect right to do. They had
taken a different view of the subject from what that House had
done. By an unfortunate calamity one of the divisions had
been deprived for a time of its President, but he trusted that
very soon he would be restored to health and his situation.—
(Cheers.) His Hon. Friend had stated that it was not the du.
ties of his office which had induced that illness, but he could
assure him that it was from his close attendance upon a long trial
upon which he had disregarded his personal sufferings that his illness
had arisen. It was also true that a late calamity had deprived the
Bench of one of its best and greatest ornaments, but he trusted
that also would be of short duration. It was also, no doubt, true
that some of the Judges were of great age—that one of them was
84. He was not free from the infirmities of age, but he was still
zealous in the discharge of his duty. Others were also of great
age, but when it was considered that they had such a trifing pens
sion to retire upon, it was no wonder that they should remain upon
_ _

knew nothing of the worthy Alderman's intention till he
heard him make the motion. Still it was fair he should
state that if the worthy Alderman had not made the
motion he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should have
done so, and for the express object to whieh his Hon. Friend
( Sir R. Inglis) had objected. He had taken the earlies: op-
portunity of laying on the table of the House the correspond-
ence on the subject of the Royal Exchange. And there was
no portion of the conduct of the Treasury on that subject
which he was not ready to defend; as he was prepared to sup-
port the reference of the question to the Committee. Of
course, as the: House had yet had no opportunity of consi-
dering that correspondence, he could not expect the House
to pronounce any opinion upon it ; and it would not be
proper to enter into a discussion of the subject now. If
the Committee were appointed, he should as early as pos-
sible move that it be referred to that Committee ; not, as
his Hon. Friend had said, to decide the law, but to con-
sider if upon those papers the Treasury had acted on the
understanding of the Committee's Report.
Col. WOOD said, if the question needed to be again
discussed, why was it not brought boldly before the House,
instead of being attempted to be bolstered up by a Com-
mittee ?

Sir R. PEEL said he could see no objection to the re-
appointment of the Committee, considering that several
Hon. Members had devoted their time to the consideration
of the question last Session—as to improvements in the
City ; and that the House would not be prejudiced by their
decision when they were again appointed.—( Hear, hear.)
Besides, the worthy Alderman might be ready to suggest
some other mode of providing for the expense of those
improvements than the tax on coals.—( Laughter, and
" I'm afraid not," from Alderman Wood.) At all events,
no harm could result from the re-appointment of the Com-
mittee, which had for its object the promotion of metro-
politan improvements—especially in the means of commu-
nication, a subject too much neglected in this country—
( Hear, hear)—and as the House would not be pledged by
the judgment of the Committee as to the tax which should
be imposed.—( Cheers. )
The motion for the re-appointment of the Committee
was then put and agreed to.
COURTS OF JUSTICE IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. WAL L ACE, in rising to move for a Committee
on this subject, said it would be unworthy of the represen-
tative of any part of Scotland to wish for any Committee
on such a question but one that would consider it with
calmness and attention. In 1834 an Hon. Member ob-
tained a Committee to consider of and report as to the
salaries of Judges of Scotland compared with their duties,
therefore he had a precedent for what he now sought—
the precedent of 1834. He intended to bring under the
notice of the House the constitution of the Quarter Seg.
sion—the Jury trial in that Court—the Court of Teinds
the mode of trial before the Judges in criminal and civil
cases—a mode of proceeding in criminal and civil cases
before Sheriff's Courts of both descriptions. He
knew that it was a wide field, but he considered
it of such importance as to command the at-
tention of the House for a short time. First, he
would call the attention of the House to the fact that there
was a general desire throughout the country for an im-
provement of the administration of justice. There was a
great cry for small debt courts and for local courts through-
out this country ; so also could he assure the House there
was in Scotland. In 1807 Lord Grenville, in a most
luminous speech, said that there was a great want of good
administration of justice in the northern part of this
country—the same remark would apply now. He knew
that his Honourable Friends opposite would say that there
had been great improvement in the Courts of Scotland
since 1807. but he begged leave most respectfully to
deny that proposition. There had been many alterations
and a few improvements, but the lieges were plundered in
1807 by those Courts, and they were plundered now. If
they denied his statement he challenged them to a
Committee. He knew that they would not grant it,
because they were well aware that he could prove every
statement that be had made. It was a well known fact
that more appeals—that many more appeals came from
the small country of Scotland, than came from any of the
other countries. It was owing to this that there was no
such thing as a responsible Court in Scotland. The
Judges were all collected together in such a manner that
no one was responsible. The 13 Judges were often called
upon to give their individual opinion upon a single case,
and it was decided by 6t07,0r5 to 8. On many occa-
sions such had been the case. Lord Grenville further
said that he was most anxious to reduce the great
quantity of printed pleadings, which was the great cause
of expense and delay. It had been said by high
authority in Scotland that written evidence was no
evidence at all. All the evidence taken in a case in
Scotland must be taken by Commission, as it was
called—the witnesses went before a third party—their evi-
dence was taken, and then submitted to the Judges, and
he fully believed that they never read it.—( Cries of
" Oh, oh.") He did believe that his statement was true ;
for he thought it to be impossible that any person could
read through such a quantity of trash as was taken down
as evidence in a cause in Scotland. Why should not the
witnesses be brought face to face before the Judge, as it
was in England ? Until such was the case, they would
never have justice well administered in Scotland;
Another fallacy was, that the Judges and Sheriffs
in Scotland were Judges of the law, the fact, and of
equity, all in the same person and at the same time—
a task that was too great for humanity, even if
wrapt up in the shape of a Judge.—(Laughter.) He
would appeal to the Hon. Member for Dublin whether it
was possible for one man properly to discharge the duties
of the whole three. Such was the state of things in Scot-
land. There was no difference between the time when
Lord Grenville made the able speech to which he bad ad-
verted and the present moment. His next objection was
with regard to the mode in which the Court of Session
was constituted. There was no man more unwilling than
himself to allude to anything that would hurt the feelings
of any Member of that Court, but he felt it his duty to do
so. Various members of the Supreme Court in Scotland,
from extreme age and infirmities, were totally inefficient.
It was true they were all men of high attainments, great
legal knowledge, and entitled to the highest respect; but
it was his business to state broadly that the heads of the
Supreme Courts were, from the condition to which he had
adverted, unfitted to the situations they filled. An infir-
mity of a deep nature had afflicted one, and he sincerely
hoped that another had only met with a temporary afflic-
tion. But what had the latter Learned Judge done ?
Why, he had appointed a person to officiate in his absence
who had attained, he (Mr. Wallace) believed, the age of
nearly 90. • He admitted that a more eminent individual
did not exist ; but he thought it was to be lamented that
an individual so advanced in life should have been ap-
pointed. All the Judges on the Scotch Bench were
men advanced in years, varying from sixty to ninety
years. He maintained that if there were fewer
Judges of less advanced age it would be much bet-
ter. The infirmities of the Judges in Scotland could
not be attributable to over labour, for they only sat about
two months and four days in the year, and only about one
hour and a half, or two hours a-day. Now, if more efficient
Judges in point of years were appointed, they might sit as the
Courts in England did, for ten months in the year. For the
purpose of showing the difference between the Scotch Courts
and those in England, he would refer to two returns, one
from the Courts of Common Law in Westminster Hall,
and the other from the Scotch Courts. Now, according
to those returns in the year 1836. there were no less than
95,964 cases disposed of in the Courts of Common Law in
England ; of that number, 16,000 were litigated cases,
while in the Scotch Courts, with 13 Judges there were
only 3,960 cases disposed of in the same time.—( Hear,
hear.) Such was the difference between ten months' sit-
ting, and three months' sitting. Every Judge in Scotland
had his country seat, and were the people of this country to
be kept out of justice, year after year because the Judges
chose to take their pleasure. He thought that the people
of Scotland ought to have. the justice find the pleasure too.
As a proof of how the system was carried on, he would just
refer the House to returns which he had received last year
relative to the Sheriffs' Courts in the county of Renfrew, and
the result of which was an exposure that would not per-
haps be generally believed. Having reduced the return
into figures and facts, he would read them to the House,
and it would appear that the average endurance of actions
(omitting all those for small sums, and which had not lasted
longer than a year), was three years and ninety-three
days ; the average time each Sheriff had delivered judg.
ment was four ; and the average time during which the
cases had been lying on the shelf waiting for judgment was
277 days. That there might be no mistake about the matter,
he had the return carefully examined and condensed. He
might, perhaps, be told that a Royal Commission had sat
for the purpose of discharging the same duty which he
proposed should be done by that Committee. He would
read to the House the opinion of one of the Judges of that
Law Commission, and he begged to call their particular
attention to it—" My friends, as there are no reporters
present, I may privately tell you you need not be under any
apprehension on account of the Law Commissiu,;•uterfer-
ing with the Court of Session practice.—(Laughter.)
The old writers are too shrewd to break their own heads."
—(" Name.") If he get the Committee he would at once
name them.—( Laughter.) He thought be had got a
better hold by not naming the individual. With respect to
the Jury trials, there had been no return made ; but he
was disposed to think that the same objection would be
found to prevail in that department.. He would now come
to speak of the Court of Teinds. Many Scotch Gentle-
men present were aware that in various parishes disputes
had been going on, and from the protracted nature of the
proceedings in these Courts, litigation bad been going on
in these parishes for 50 years. He now came to a subject
of very great delicacy, and he'approached it with the more
reluctance when he considered the unimpeachable charac-
ter of his Learned Friend opposite. He came to the
criminal part of the Scotch jurisdiction, and he believed
that it was in a still MOi3 objectionable state than
any other department. It was beyond the power of na-
ture that his Learned Friend could give proper attention
to all details. He would ask the House how Lord Advo-
cates had obtained their appointments ? Were they not
gentlemen of the bar,land bad they not won their way, as his
Learned Friend had most distinguishedly had in the same
manner as his predecessor? Their system of circuits, (and
he was sure the learned Attorney-General would agree
with him) was most improper, They bad none but mere

the Beneh so long as their faculties remained with them. in
Scotland a person under indictment had great advantages over a
person in the same situation in this country. They were furnished
not only with a list of the witnesses to be called against them,
but also with a list of the jurors who were to try
them, and no fact could be taken as proved against them,
unless it was sworn to by two witnesses. English lawyers
said they could not get convictions under such circum-
stances, but the reverse was the case. It was a fact that convictions
in Scotland were greater in proportion than they were either in
England or Ireland, and from the great care with which the law
was administered, it was almost impossible that there should be an
innocent person convicted. On that point he was ready to answer
.. __ _ .

his Hon. Friend, if he brought before the House any single
case of any thing improper which had occurred in any
criminal proceeding in Scotland. By the Bill which came
into operation last year, the suitors in the Courts had been benefited
by a reduction of fees to the amount of 14,000/. a year. If any

one connected with the administration of justice could make any
Improvement, or remove anything that wag wrong, they would
be as earnest to do so as his Hon. Friend.—(Hear.)

youths and tyroes—no men of eminence went among•them
—and he would ask why ?—Because Jury trials did not ex-
tend to civil cases. In a period of four years there had
been only twenty-six Jury trials, being an average of
six and a quarter for each year. He did not
mean to allege any thing improper against his Learned
Friend. There was no compromise of principle,
on his part, and be felt much pleasure in making that
statement; but he pledged himself that there was a system
going on in the administration of criminal justice which
was exceedingly injurious to the ends of justice. The
power was vested in young gentlemen. The power
which was'vested in the young gentlemen who acted as the de-
puties of his Learned Friend was most dangerous and impro-
per. There was a great waste of money, and a most immoral
system ; but Although he had made the most minuto in-
quiries on the subject, he believed that those gentlemen
were entirely free from any charge of that description.
It was the system he impugned, and not the persons engaged
;n it. He went to Glasgow the other day, and he must
say that a most indecent system was carried on in those
Courts, where one young gentleman could say who was to
be tried and who was to be acquitted. It was absolutely

Mr. E. ELLICE, Jun., had had little experience on the subject
under discussion, but there was one point which might he easily

understood by every Member of the House. With regard to the
Judicial Bench, there were four Judges in each Court, three
forming a quorum. At this moment four were disqualified from

serving, so that if by any accident another should be placed in a similar
situation the whole business would be suspended until there should
be another appointment Three of these were disqualified in such a
manner, that there was no hope of their being able efficiently to
perform the duties of the office. One of them, whose talent had
never been exceeded, was in a state of nearly mental imbecility.
(Some Hon. Members on the Opposition Benches inquired who the
Hon. Member alluded to and he was understood to reply, Lord Gil..
lies). If these were facts, every one must understand that :jus-
tice was not administered as it ought to be. At the same time he
ceuld not conceive that the remedy proposed by his Hon. Friend,

would lave the effect which he supposed. But he believed that the
remarks which had been made on the constitution of the bench
would have the effect of awakening the public attention to it,

... _
and that those Judges who could not fill their situations
with usefulness to the public, and satisfaction to themselves, would
take advantage of that law which had provided an adequate retire-

ment allowance.

_....... __.... .._...._...
Mr. FOX MAULE felt it his duty, after what had fallen from
his Hon. Friend, to say a few words, because if what he had stated

were really the fact, it could notbut reflect discredit on the Govern-

ment that they hadi not looked with sufficient vigilance to the On the question being put,
administration of justice in Scotland. With regard to what his Mr. POULETT THOMSON rose and said, that it was neces-
Hon. Friend had stated this was the fist time he had heard that sary frequently that Bills of the nature alluded to by his Hon.
that distinguished and venerable Judge (Lord Gillies) was afflicted Friend who had brought forward this motion, should be introduced
with mental imbecility. That he was not bending under the weight at a late period of the Session. If Honourable Gentlemen paid at.
of years he (Mr. Maule) was not prepared to assert ; but that his tention to the manner in which public business had of tate pressed_
mental faculties were not adequate to the discharge of his duties he on this liouse, they must be aware that measures to great pU01.1(;
was prepared to deny. It was not surprising that men of large importance must necessarily be brought forward at the close of tho
families should struggle, even under the weight of declining years, Session ; because, although they might be of the utmost import-
to maintain their position and their salaries from the public to an lance to different interests yet they might not have attracted pub-
hour when perhaps it would be more prudent that they should retire lic attention. This way the consequence of the number of ques_
from the discharge of their public duties. Was it to be surmised that tions brought forward relating to party differences which had un
on this occasion the feelings of a father in leaning to the interests of fortunately greatly increased of late. His Hon. Friend who brought
his family should overcome that of looking to the interests of the forward this motion, and his Honourable Friend the Member for
public ? For the first time in 28 years, after active and zealous Kilkenny, who had seconded it, had referred chiefly to Bills con.
services, this distinguished officer was absent from his post.— nected with trade and commerce. He was satisfied even if the
(Hear, hear.) No one who had looked to the administration of Hon. Mover should be inclined to press the question, which he was
justice in Scotland, could hesitate in dealing out to the Lord Justice happy to see that he was not—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Wallace)
Clerk the fullest meed of Praise for the manner in which he had —that he should be enabled to show that this motion was urine.
discharged his duties; and it was gratifying to find that after a cessary. The House of Commons would not allow any Bill to be
short interval of absence he was likely to return to his Court with isitroduced unless grounds were shown for the necessity of its intro-
recruited strength, not only of body but of mind. With respect to duction. The motion therefore was supererogatory. The motion
the venerable individual who presided in his Court in his absence, might be opposed also on other grounds. It would be putting a
he had the Lord Justice Clerk's assurance that he was fully able to stop to the legislation of that House. All Bills relating to corn-
discharge the duties of his office. As to the gentleman who had merce must involve revenue considerations. How was it possible
been afflicted bY a sudden attack in Edinburgh, it would be ungracious to introduce Bills involving revenue considerations until public
in him to say further than that it would be hard to call accounts were made up, and he knew what money would be at his
on him to resign his office. With respect to the general state of disposal. The revenue accounts were only made up to
young men and efficient men as the sth of April, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer must
thejud
gesi Courtbut itl
hwoaws desirablecould
they t o heaxvpee
c ta
general succession going on have made his financial statement to the House. The Budget must
unless they had a fit and proper allowance for those Judges to retire have been brought forward before Bills could be introduced affecting
upon when they declined in years ? No one would say they had a articles of commerce. He would be glad that his Hon. Friend
right to work as public servants to the last moment when they could would place at his d'sposal money to be disposed of in different
get labour out of him, and leave him in his declining years to look ways; he should be happy to come down to that House on the sth
to his family interests. The House owed thanks to the Hon. of February, and say that it was in his power to reduce duties on
Member (Mr. Wallace) for bringing forward this question, inas- such and such articles ; but his Hon. Friend would tell him that
much as it would tend to settle it in the public mind. No evil it was necessary that the financial accounts should be made up be.
could afflict a country so greatly as that having bad Judges ;.but there fore he (Mr. P. Thomson) could be enabled to announce his inten-
was another evil scarcely less, that of having their confidence tion to lessen or to take off a tax. We must wait until the financial
shaken in the fitness of those who were appointed to the responsible statement has been made. Of late years he had had the good fortune
office of Judges. An inquiry by a Committee of the House into to propose and carry many ameliorations in the Corn-laws ; but
the conduct of men sitting on the Bench would be likely to these. ameliorations required much preparation and consideration.
have such an effect, and he deprecated the motion mainly In the first place, it is desirable to ascertain what sum of money
on that principle. It would have o other effect than can be spared for the reduction of duties; next, it was of import..
to unsettletat no
the minds of the people, and give them a want of ance to know in what particular articles these reductions would
confidence in the administration of the justice of that country. tell most for the public advantage ; in order to ascertain
With respect to the points mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman, he this, it was necessary to consult different individuals, and to
no doubt entertained so clear an opinion on them, that he could listen to the claims put forward by different interests. Hon. Members
not want any evidence to substantiate his views. Why, therefore, were not to imagine that because discussion does not take place
did he not come forward anti bring in a Bill, and lay it on the table, within these walls, that therefore none takes place at all; a vast
proposing a Reform, so that they might discuss, point by point, deal of discussion took place without these walls. Different in-
those Reforms which he thought the judicial establishment of terests were heard, and such different adjustment of those inte-
Scotland required. He would ask the Hon. Member not to make rests took place as might best conduce to the interests of trade
sweeping attacks on the whole judicial administration without in general. He would refer to a reduction recently taken place,
making some motion, because such a course could have no satisfac. a reduction of the duty on fruits. Constant and frequent con.
tory effect.—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House fur- sultations had taken place with persons connected with all
ther on this subject, believing it would pause long before it agreed to branches of that trade before it was settled in what manner
the propositions of the Hon. Member.—(Hear, hear.) that reduction should take place. He would mention also
Sir GEORGE CLERK rejoiced exceedingly, that the Hon. another instance, the reduction of the duties on dyes, which fur
Gentleman the Secretary of State, whose duty it was to ascertain a long time previously had been the subject of daily consulations.
that there was no person remaining on the judicial Bench of Scot.. He mentioned these circumstances to show the House
land who was not perfectly competent to discharge his duty, had the necessity there was of consulting with different
come forward and contradicted the statement that had been made, interests in such .cases as those which he had adduced
—(Cries of " No, no.") Whys it had,been said that four Judges of The effect of the Hon. Member's motion would be to retard all
the present Bench of Scotland were incompetent-- this business. On no subject was more care taken to inform the
Mr. O'CONNELL--Three of them. public mind than upon the subject of financial measures, which
Sir GEORGE CLERK was surprised to hear the statement made had to go through more forms than ordinary Bills. If more had not
with regard to three, or two, or even one. It was true that um_ been done within the last few years for commercial improvement,
fortunately one of those learned persons had been obliged to re.. it had been the fault of that House, and not the fault of the
linguish his duty on account of severe illness, but he trusted Board of Trade. He (Mr. P. Thomson) had done all that he
that that learned'person was in fair way of recovery, and that before thought this House would permit him to do, to improve
many days had passed he would be able to discharge his duty with the commercial legislation of this country. He appealed
the same honour and credit as he had done for the last 28 years. with confidence to the various articles (not of very great
—(Hear, hear.) When the Hon. Gentleman talked of persons being importance), to the number of 300 or 400, in which lie had effected
on the Bench who were incompetent from mental imbecility to per- a reduction of duty, and the result of which, in most eases, had
form their duty, he begged leave distinctly to deny that.—(Hear, been an advantage to the Revenue by an increase of consumption,
hear.) He wished that Hort. Gentlemen would look at the vow_ —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The restrictive duties upon those
minous judgments delivered by every Judge in that Court in the great articles, corn and timber—(Hear, hear)—from which duties he
course of last year. Nothing could reflect greater credit upon any believed this country was suffering—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")
person than the judicial research, tho high learning, and the —they were beyond his power, and it depended upon this House
acuteness displayed in those judgments. He believed that at no period whether any alteration should take place in them.—( Hear, hear.)
of his life was that learned person more capable of giving judgment Mr. BROTHERTON said that having a motion upon the books
to the great satisfaction of all suitors than at the present moment.— of the same nature as the Honourable Member for Greenock,
(Hear, hear.) The only inference that could be drawn from the though he proposed to effect the same object by different
speech of the Hon. and Learned Member was this, that every per- means, he would say a word or two. He considered
son who filled a judicial situation ought to tender his resignation that his proposition—that no public Bill be read a second
the moment he became indisposed. He hoped that, for the sake of time after a day to be fixed at the commencement of each
Scotland, Lord Corehouse's health would speedily be restored. Session, except for special reasons and under urgent circumstances,
Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE said it was true his; venerable re. was the better of the two. When he made his customary motion,
lative the President of the Cdurt of Session was now advanced in that no business likely to create debate should come on after,
years, and he was far from denying that that advance in years had twelve o'clock at night, he was always assailed by the objection that
not told considerably against him. He (Mr. Hope Johnstone) had it would have the effect of retarding the public business and
, been in constant communication with that venerable person, and he lengthening the Session. But his answer to that was, that if the
could say that in all the ordinary intercourse of life it was impos- Session was protracted to Christmas new Bills would constantly be
sible to see the slightest symptoms to which the Honourable pouring in to the very last.—(Hear, hear.) As a proof of that, he
Member had alluded.—(Hear.) The observations of the Hon. Bart. might state that last Session, when there were 120 public Acts
the Member for Stamford, (Sir G. Clerk) had done away with the passed fifty-five new Bills were introduced after the lot of July,
necessity of his saying a great deal that he had intended to state; the Session closing in August.—(Hear, hear.) Members ought to
but he could not sit still and hear allusions which he thought might know what business was before them when the Session opened. A
have been made in more gentle language by the Hon. Membr— limitation was already inforcein regard to Private Bills, which could
(Hear, hear)—and he begged to bear his testimony that the states not be Introduced after a certain time, and lie thought it would be
ments of the Hon. Member were inaccurate.—(Hear.) with public advantage that a similar limitation should be established
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, having been alluded to so with regard to public Bills. If, however, the sense of the House
pointedly by his Hon. and Learned Friend—(Laughter)—the was expressed against the motion of the Hon. Member for Greenock
Member for Greenock, begged to make a few observations. He en- he (Mr. B.) would not press his.
tirely concurred in the view taken of this subject by his Learned Sir G. CLERK objected to both motions for this simple reason,
Friend the Lord Advocate. He had a very fair opportunity of that he would resist any attempt to place any limitation upon the
seeing how justice was administered in Scotland ; and he must say House in respect to the introduction of those measures which the
that, on the whole, it was administered very satisfactorily— (Hear) public interests might demand. The President of the Board of
—That there were abuses no one would deny, although they had Trade had talked a great deal about the reductions he had made,
been most monstrously exaggerated by the lion. Member for and was prepared to make in duties on articles of commerce. He
Greenock. The House would recollect what the Hon. Member (Sir G. Clerk) was glad that the Right Hon. Gentleman had thus gone
said about the people of Scotland being mulcted in 2,000,000/. a far to make up for a material omission in her Majesty's speech.....(Hearn
year, by the costs they paid in the:Sheriffs' Courts.—(Hear, hear, and he was happy that the public had to expect such great reduc.
from Mr. Wallace.) That must give English and Irish Members tions in those duties.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Hon.
aright notion of the growing wealth of his country—(Laughter)—. Baronet went on to observe on the change that had taken place in
that the people, without any considerable inconvenience, could the commencement of the financial year, which formerly began with
spare 2,000,0001. a year for costs in the Sheriffs' Courts. The Hon. the natural year, and the only reason which had been given for
Gentleman had been led away by his zeal to dream of things that altering it, and commencing it in March or April, viz., that the
were utterly impossible.—(Laughter.) He agreed that trial by estimates might be prepared and voted before the Budget was brought
Jury might be more generally introduced, but as to the trouble, forward, was now quite obviated, as those estimates were seldom
Gentlemen should remember what had been said by the Lord completely voted till much nearer the close than the commencement
Advocate. Trial by Jury required to be familiarly under.. of the Session.—(Hear.) He hoped that in future there would be
stood by witnesses, jurymen, and all concerned in the no cause of complaint, and that the estimates would be laid on the
working of the machinery. There was some inconsistency table of the House within the time agreed upon by the House,
In what the Hon. Gentleman said—lie wished trial by jury to be on the motion of Sir John Newport. lie also trusted that the
more generally introduced, and yet he said that where trial by jury Chancellor of the Exchequer would find it convenient
had been introduced, the parties were always ruined. His Hon. to revert back to the old system, and commence the financial system
Friend had referred to the office of public prosecutor. Why, what from the sth January, so that the balance sheet of the Government
be had said went against the appointment of a public prosecutor might be laid on the table of the House, within one week from the
altogether; that because it would be impossible for the Lord Ad. meeting of Parliament. It was now brought forward, if not at the
vocate to be in every Court in Scotland, therefore he must have a very end, at a very late period of the Session, and the President of
Deputy to represent him, and that Deputy must have a discretion. the Board of Trade was obliged to wait until the Budget was
as to who should be prosecuted, and how the prosecution should brought forward before he could introduce any Bill for the relief of
be conducted. There were great reasons for thinking that the office the trade or commerce of the country. The Session was consumed,
ofpublic prosecutor might be introduced into England with advantage, and his opportunity for so doing was gone. He hoped the Hon. Mem.
He believed that it would be mush better if a prosecution were insti- her for Greenock would not press his motion to a division, as he had
tuted by a responsible adviser, who was able to say what case should not obtained an expression of opinion from the House in his favour.
be brought before a Jury and what should not, than that the matter The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would take upon
should be left to blind chance. He did not at all deny that great himself to say, and he believed without fear of contradiction, that
inducements may not be advanced or facilitated by the Committee ever since he had the honour of filling the situation he then held
proposed by his Hon. Friend. He himself had been a member of a the estimates for the great interests of the country—the estimates
Committee on the Sheriff's Courts, and had gone there day after day for the Navy, the Army, and the Ordnance had always been laid
and sometimes there was a quorum and sometimes there was not on the table of the House within the period limited by the motion
—sometimes there was a Court, and sometimes there was not, of Sir John Newport. He had not the slightest doubt of the cor.
There was very little advantage obtained by going into all the de.. rectness of his statement, but if, on enquiry, lie should find that there
tails of the Courts. It would perhaps occupy several years. Such was any mistake, he would set himself right with the House to•
subjects had better form the business of a Commission. He had had morrow. He repeated again, that all those estimates con-
the honour° }ming one of a Commission which would bring no expence nected with the greatest interests of the country were on the table
at all upon the public. He would not boast of his own services, but of the House, and in the hands of Members within the limited time.
he would say lie was a member of that Committee. Great talent His Honourable Friend opposite had asked him to return to the old
was devoted for days and months to that service, from which sers financial year, but allow him to ask in what condition was the
vice it was to be expected great improvements were to be introduced House placed under the old practice ? Why, in nine cases out of
into that department of the law. Now, could improvements in the ten, the Ministry were carrying on the affairs of Government with_
law be expected from a Committee of the House of Commons ? out any authority whatever from Parliament.—(Cheers.) The
Trial by jury would be introduced, so that his Hon. Friend would Right Hon. Bart. knows well enough that such was the case with
perhaps hereafter have the pleasure of going and hearing in a Scotch many of the Governments with which he has been connected. On
Court, a suit for 20s. tried and decided by a jury. The Hon. Gen- the accession of the present Ministry they were told from all parts of
tleman then concluded by stating it had not been his intention to the House that they ought rather to adopt the plan followed by the
speak at such length upon the subject, and thanking Hon. Members French Chamber, and take a vote of confidence than go on, on the
for their attention,
plan which had hitherto been followed. The Government, however,
Mr. HORSMAN would recommend his Hon. Friend to withdraw took a different course. They altered the financial year from
his motion for a Committee, which he was certain nothing but a January to April, and they were supported, not only by the great
sense of public duty could have induced him to bring forward. The body of the House, but also by the people out of doors.
Hon. Baronet must have misunsterstood what had been stated when By the plan now in practice the Government had always time
he spoke about Lord Corehouse ;it was, lie believed stated gene- sanction of Parliament the number of men would be voted; the
rally that the Scotch Judges were inefficient from age or bad health, Mutiny Bill might be progressing ; and the wages of the Navy would
but no special allusion was made to Lord Corehouse. If the power be paid, and all would go on under the sanction of the House. It
of securing the comforts of after life were withheld from those would be a great departure from principle if they were to go back
venerable characters, it was :to be expected they would remain on to the old system, unless at the same time they were also to recur to
the Bench till overtaken by age and infirmity. His the old practice of assembling in November. If the House met at
Hon. Friend, he thought, had obtained his object in the public at.. such a time Government could accommodate any one with making
tention he had attracted to the state of the Judicial Bench in Scot the financial year commence in January; but meeting as they did
land, and therefore he did not foresee any objection to his with. in February, it was absolutely necessary that they should adhere to
drawing his motion.
the system of commencing from April. He trusted that his Hon.
Mr. HOPE said he was able, from his own personal knowledge, Friend would not divide the House, for he had obtained all that he
to contradict much that had been stated in respect to the Scotch wished by getting a recognition of his principle which should be
Judges, and he regretted the Hon. Member for St. Andrew's, had followed in all practical cases.
been led into the statement he had made. Mr. WARBURTON—If he understood the suggestion of the
Hon. Member for Greenock it was this, not that there should be.
Mr. BANNERMAN had been in the Court of Quarter Sea-
sions in Edinburgh, and had there seen a venerable one universal rule, but that Bills should be brought in at aim early
Judge, sin honourable and upright man, and had heard him deliver stage of the Session. For his own part he would have two classes of
his opinion on two short cases. He was in such a state of imbe- cases—lse That wherever duties were to be imposed or raised,
cility, that he regretted to see him, and he was prompted by his the Bills should be brought in on the first day of the Session; but
brother Judges on the right and left.—(Hear, hear.) The Lord in the second place, when duties were to be taken off he would
President was not there on that occasion, and therefore he was sorry allow the Government to have power to introduce the Bill when
to hear his Hon. Friend say, that his mind was imbecile ; he was, they please.—(Laughter.) The Right Hon. President of the Board
however, in bad health. He hoped the Scottish Judges would soon of Trade said that it was the fault of the House that
be enabled to retire on full salaries, and if his Hon. Friend did not the duties on corn and timber remained in the tame
bring forward a measure for that purpose, he would himself do so. state as they had been during the last few years.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Judges of Scotland were not ade- That was not quite correct, because it was the duty of the Right
quately paid for their services. It was impossible they could Hon. Gentleman to have brought in a Bill to carry into effect the
save money, and yet support their families. It was a paltry recommendation of a Committee which had sat some years ago and
species of economy, that they were not allowed to resign on full recommended that the duty of timber should be reduced. The Right
salaries. Such economy was pursued both in Scotland and Ire- Hon. Gentleman, therefore, should accuse himself and not the
land, and was equally bad in both countries. House,because he (Mr. Warburton) and his friends around him
hwiomu would
dh h
o havethen
cheer
r ? cheer
No
;o f
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wouldufrs friends e
upon
n mute.wthheo
Mr. PRINGLE denied that the venerable Scottish Judge were very anxious for the reduction. When he (Mr. Warburton)
alluded to by Mr. Bannerman was in a state of imbecility ;he was sat on the opposite side of the House, along with the Right Hom
in full possession of those splendid abilities for which he had been so Gehtleman, he had frequently brought the subject of the timber
much and so justly admired in Scotland. It had been lately his lot duties before the House, and had been frequently cheered by him
he evinced that singular ingenuity of mind by which he had long that purpose, would he have the cheer of the Right Hon. Gentle.
at:lA:fear him give his opinion on some case, and lie could assure him and his friends. Suppose that he were to introduce a Bill now for
astonished his hearers. There was no Judge in his (Mr. Pringle's) man ? hi Hear, hear, hear," from Mr. Poulett Thomson)
Fell, but
Judge had done,
recollection who had borne a higher character than that venerable
Mr. aen to pass through
of
haver.
his (Mr. W.'s) earnest support.
JudgeßANNEßMANquestion
was
promptedexplained.
respectstated
to thethat the
evidence
qtLhueeemt s
Committee,
oho
nnew..RAii
tgHLt Right
eet
,AlaclnoEdn
wouldh,
dmeGi
dweetrinoetuoll Gentleman
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iuvt
Billsdt hee recommendationsthh
account of his being exceedingly deaf; he had said nothing what.
ever against his abilities or his character.
Mr. GILLAM denied that the Judges of Scotland were under. seven stages, instead of five, it was an argument in favourof an earlier
paid. He thought, Considering the short period the Judges sat, bringing in of Bills. He thought the financial year ought to be
they were admirably paid for the duties they performed. He closed in January. He thought that such a course would save a
thought the public money could not be better applied than by vast deal of trouble to the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; he would
giving the Judge a proper retiring provision, but it should be at withdraw his motion.—Motion withdrawn.
that time of life when they were incapable of performing their LAW OF COPYRIGHT.
duties. Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD, in rising to bring in the Bill which
E. ELLICE, jun., made a few observations in explanation, he had brought in for two Sessions, for the purpose of amending the
which were totally inaudible in the gallery. law of copyright, hoped he might be allowed to abstain from in-
Mr. AGLIONBY considered the subject with respect to the viting any discussion in the present stage of proceeding. Although
Scotch Judges had been brought forward prematurely. He thought he was perfectly ready to agree to the principle which had been
the Hon. Member would not gain much by the appointment of a laid down by the President of the Board of Trade, that it was
Committee of the House of Commons, as he considered a Corn. desirable Bills should not be laid before the House without the
mittee of the House of Commons. was not the best authority to take grounds of them being stated, yet, when a measure had been
up the matter. He was in hopes, however, that what had taken twice sanctioned by the House up to the second read.ng, and when
place would induce her Majesty's Government to take the subject it had been withdrawn last Session for the sake of forwarding the
into their serious consideration, for the purpose of revising the public business, he hoped that he might be permitted
whole judicial system in Scotland. on this occasion to introduce it without fatiguing the House.—
M
WALLACE thought that the House had run away from the (Hear, hear.) If this was the feeling of the House, he would at
question, and that it would be vain on his part to attempt to bring once move for leave to introduce the Bill, as the subject was one
them back to it. In answer, however, to the observations of the which wanted the excitement attendant on political discussions.
Attorney-General, he had to complain that they would not allow Mr. WARBURTON would not detain the House farther than
themr. to
try for shillings and sixpences in Scotland, but they would to express his hope that this Bill would follow the fate of the Bill of
for arms and necks--(laughter)—anything that would serve the purses of last Session.—(Hear, hear.) He would not oppose its intro.
of the people of Scotland they would not allow them to try- He duction, but would take every opportunity during its progress to
would not longer detain the House, or take a division on the sub- contribute towards its defeat.
ject ; hut seeing s the impression that had been entertained he would Leavewas then given to bring ill the.Biil.
withdraw his motion. JUDGMENTS, CROWN DEBTS, AND FIATS IN BANK_
Motion withdrawn.
trade RUP
ve TCY.
Mr. WALLACE then rose to move "That,: no Bill affecting the Sir E. SUGDEN moved for lea to bring in a Bill for the better
or commerce of the country be introduced after Eas- protection of purchasers against judgments, Crown debts, and fiats
ter, unless on special cause being shown why it had in bankruptcy. The result of the Bill would be to lessen the
not been brought forward sooner." In making the present motion, expenses of the delays attending purchases, and avoid a great
he begged the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite would under- ' mass of litigation. With respect to the question of judgments.
stand that he did not intend to disparage the motion of which he As the law stood until a recent period, judgments could be had
had given notice. in all the Courts, and each Court had a register of its own judg-
Mr. HUME felt great pleasure in seconding the motion of his i ments ; and as these judgments would lie for a great many years,
Hon. Friend. Although Government might see fit occasionally to ' a purchaser who wanted to see that there was no judgment on
introduce measures of importance towards the close of the session, the estates had to resort to every Court, and examine its registers
Trade
yet that could seldom be the case. The President of the Board of to see if there was a judgment against the person selling them.
must in general be aware of what was required to be brought ' One great difficulty was that the names were entered generally, so
forward before that period. Last Session more Bills affecting im.. that if a man rejoiced in the name of John King, the person buy-
portant interests had been brought forward at a late period than in ing would find perhaps 200 judgments against the same name, and
any other Session. He thought that this notice of motion should be would have to find out the true one. The effect of this was that
given Would prevent the public being taken by surprise j a man's judgments bound the estates which he afterwards bought,

In a Bill brought in last year, there was a provision that all judg-
ments for the time to come should be put upon one register, and the
description and residence of the persons against whom they were
entered should also be stated there. This was a great improvement,
but what he proposed upon tha point was this. The evil still
existed as to those itidttnents which were eriter.l. up previously
to the passing of Ilia .1;iil SCSSiGiI. ile proposal ii.at the

judgments already entered up should within a year be brought upon
a new register, where they were intended to effect estates in the
hands of bona fide purchasers. He had another proposition to
make, which was rendered still more necessary from the provisions
of the recent Act. which altered the character of judgments as ro-
gardfd estates. Formerly a judgment was not a lien upon the
estate, but the creditor had it in his election to go against the
estate if he thought proper, and it was considered rather as a ge-
neral lien than a particular charge. The late Act had made every
judgment entered up a 'charge upon the estate, which involved the
purchaser in greater difficulties than existed before. He proposed in
order to lessen the difficulty that every five years a person who wished
to keep these judgments alive against these estates should re enter his
judgment. The effect might be that the purchases might go to one
Court only, and have only to search for five y ears. There was a
question of a different nature, which also led to great difficulties on
the part of the purchasers, and which men of common sense could
not understand, which was called a lis pend,Pns. The absurdi, y of
the law was this, that if the proceeding went on to a decree, there
was no notice at all, but the mere filing of the bill, and the pro-
ceeding in court was a notice—upon this antiquated notion, that
every body was present during the proceedings of a court of justice,
and that every body knew what had happened in the past
decrees of the court. The result was frightful. A mon
who had not he slightest notion of litigation was suddenly
told there was a Zis pendens, and when he asked the meaning of
that he was told it was a suit in Chancery. He proposed a very
simple remedy for that, which was, to make every man who filed a
bill put his case upon this register of judgments which he had already
mentioned. The next subject to which he had to call the attention
of the House was one of a very important nature. By the law of
this country every accountant of the Crown had his estates b)und to
the Crown during the whole time of his liability, and if he should
sell an estate at the time he did not owe a shilling, and 20 years
afterwards was seized for a debt subsequently incurred, the purchaser
who had bought the estate would be liable to the Crown for every
shilling of debt incurred by the tenant. How he proposed to ob-
viate the objection was this—that in the Court of Exchequer
there should be a register similar to the register of judgments
to which he had adverted, and that the Crown should in that register
enter the names, alphabetically, of all the accountants and debtors
to the Crown. He did not think there would be any opposition to
what he proposed on this subject. The next was a very difficult
' question—it related to the operation of lists in bankruptcy on estates
of traders. The law as it now stood'was this, that if he bought an
estate from a trader, and there was a prior act of bankruptcy, of
which he had no notice, yet if a commission issued within two months
after he had bought the estate then he would lose it. Now that
appeared to him to be altogether without defence.—(Hear, hear.)
It was manifestly absurd. If a trailer was not prevented buying an
estate, why should he be prevented selling an estate? What he
wished to provide was, that a bona fide purchaser for value,
without notice of bankruptcy, should not be affected by a com-
mission of bankruptcy after he had bought and paid for the
estate. The present law prevented a man turning his money
into estates, and his estates into money, as he had a right to
do if he chose. The present law provided that if a man
had notice when purchasing an estate, of a commis
sion issuing within twelve months of the purchase, that
that should bind him. He (Sir Edward Sugden) saw no objection to
that, because if a man choose to speculate with his eyes open he
must take the chance of any creditor of the bankrupt pouncing on
him and the estate hehad bought. These were the principal objects
he had for asking the House for leave to bring in this Bill. He
would not have taken :the liberty of doing so had he not thought
that such a bill would facilitate the transfer of property, without
taking from any man the right he ought to enjoy, while it gave the
purchaser a degree ofsecurity and safety which be thought it was the
bounden duty of the House to provide for him.—(Hear, hear, from
both sides of the House.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would not detain the House
on the present occasion, but he could:not let that opportunity pass
without tendeiring his thanks to his Right Honourable Friend for
this useful and material alteration in the law, which he proposed
to introduce.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was, no doubt an alte.
ration, most desirable in itself, but he could not help looking at
the two first propositions of making a more effectual register of
judgments and Crown debts as at least one important step to the
panf.cea—the real medicine and remedy for a great many of these
evils, the establishment of a good system of general registry.—
(Cheers.) He looked to this as a most nnportant advance ;
he did not treat it as an immaterial matter in the benefit which it
contained itself, but he looked at is as a most important circum-
stance, that it was an advance, and an advance in the right direction,
to that which was the only real remedy for our present complicated
and expensive system of real property.—(Hear, hear.)
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
PRISON DISCIPLINE (SCOTLAND).

Mr. FOX MAULE then rose to move for leave io bring in a
Bill for the Improvement of Prisons and Prison Discipline
in Scotland. The principal alteration contemplated by the Bill was
in regard to County Boards. We had now County Boards and
Boards under those County Boards: it was his intention to unite
the two. He proposed, in regard to assessors, instead of leaving
the law as at present, to give to Commissioners of Supply for the
county, the power of assessing for the purposes required ; and he
should give in all counties a power of raising the assessment a penny
in the pound on real property. These were the principal altera-
tions he intended to make. He had, during the recess, visited
Scotland, and from the inquiries he had made there he was not con-
vinced that the mode of assessment adopted there was good. He
had, however found it in such condition. This Bill would of courle
include other matters, for which the House would be responsible ;
but he hoped he should not be accused of pressing the Bill for.
ward too hastily, as sufficient time would be given for understand-
ing its details during its progress through the House.
Sir GEORGE CLERK entirely approved of the main objects
of this Bill, and the necessity of introducing better discipline into
prisons, and providing further accommodation therein. No per-
son who had been in Scotland but must regret the state of the
prisons there; but the Hon. Member had introduced some things
into his Bill which were not connected with its main object,
which was the improvement of prisons. He approved of the
alteration as far as it went, but he wished to call the attention
of the Hon. Gentleman to the propriety of separating that part
•f the Bill which went to provide for the improvement of prison
discipline in Scotland, from that which provides for the building
of one, or two, or three other prisons for the confinement of pri-
soners after trial, and where an improved system of discipline is
to be carried into effect. He thought the providing by an
assessment for the building these additional prisons, without
immediately raising the question as to the propriety of
throwing the burthen of the expense upon the people,
was premature. No person knew the proportion of expense
which would be thrown on the people, because in former Bills, lie
believed, the returns from the different counties were made up on
different principles and for different objects, and did not offer the
means of judging of the present case. He regretted the Principal
Secretary of State for the Home Department was not now in the
House, because he should be fortified by the example he had given
last night, in an observation he made to the House on his intended
measure for building prisons. The Hon. Gent. had much better
have divided his Bill into two parts, and he hoped before the Bill
passed he would see the propriety of so separating it. He would say
then little time should be lost in carryinging through the
measure connected with the improvement of discipline of prisons.
He thought this improvement should be under the direction of a
central board; and in this respect he approved of the Bill, but he
was not:satisfied with the expense thrown on the people. He was
friendly to the experiment of improved prison discipline being tried
on an extensive scale, but he thought that experiment might be
tried in the large military hospital in the Isle of Wight, which was
large enough to contain all the prisoners condemned for
crimes in Scotland, without throwing on that country the
heavy burthen of building additional penitentiaries. If, as
the Noble Lord at the head of the Home Department
had announced last night, he meant to call upon Parliament
for a grant of money, for the purpose of building prisons, let the ex.
periment in regard to Scotland be tried in the same way, and at the

same time. The prison in the Isle of Wight would incur an ex-
pense of about twenty thuusand pounds, but it would hold all the
prisoners of Scotland for many years to come. Let the experiment
be tried, and let it be paid for out of the public purse, and not paid
for in this unsatisfactory manner, out of the people's pockets. He
hoped, for the sake of Scotland, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
would divide the Bill into two parts. He thought the erection of
prisons in Scotland should be made:a charge on the Consolidated
Fund, and not be paid out of the Country. rates.

Mr. FOX MAULE was surprised at the course adopted by the
Hon. Gentleman opposite. A new light seemed to have dawned
upon him. He (Mr. F. Maule) viewed with alarm the proposition
of the Hon. Member, as it led him to anticipate an opposition to the
measure which he had not anticipated. Notwithstanding a!1 that
had been said by the Hon. Baronet, he (Mr. F. Maule) considered
it better that the Bill should be proceeded with in its single shape.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
LEGACY DUTY.

Mr. HUME moved for a return, showing the amount of capital
on which the several rates of legacy duty has been
been paid in Great Britain for 1836, 1837, and 1838, distinguishing
the amount of each rate paid in each year, and the total amount of
each rate paid in each of these years, together with the total
amount received from the commencement of the tax. His object
in his moving for this return was to show the inequality of the
mode in which the duty was levied. It fell heavily upon the
poorer classes while it passed by the rich. Another object he had
in view was to complete the retarn from 1824 up to the present
time.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not deny
that there was some inequality, but the inequality was not quite to
the extent represented by the Honourable Member for Kil-
kenny.—(Hear.) To have represented the case fairly, he should
have stated on the other side the stamp duties on conveyances and
various other stamp duties, to which landed property was subjected,
but from which personal property was exempt. He would also cor-
rect a misstatement of the Hon. Gentleman respecting [the duty
paid on the property left by the late Duke of Sutherland. If he
would refer to the probate of that will he would see that the
revenue had been considerably augmented in consequence.
Mr. HUME—That was on personal property only. Return or.
dered.

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND).
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON in withdrawing his notice for leave
to bring in a Bill to amend the laws relating to the Registration of
Voters in Ireland, and to assimilate them as much as may be to those
of England, stated that the present state of the registrations in Ireland
was admitted by persons of all parties to beexceedimgly defective.
A measure had been brought forward in 1835, and again 1836
and 1838, to remedy these evils. The Committee on Fictitious
Votes had examined witnesses from all parts of Ireland, and all
agreed that the registration was in the worst possible state. The
law for the relief of the poor which passed last Session had afforded
machinery which did not previously exist for the purposes of regis.
tration. It was his desire to avail himself of that machinery.
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not bring forward
this measure with any party view, and should be obliged to any
Gentleman for suggestions on the subject. He had received recently
some very important suggestions. He had been told that it was
premature to introduce it—that he had better delay it for the pre-
sent; and in accordance with that advice he would net now move
for leave, but would avail himself of more suggestions to bring in a
measure at a future period.

EXCISE LICENSES.
Mr GILLON moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the
renewal of licenses for the sale of excisable liquors in Scotland.
He stated that at present dealers were obliged to get a
certificate from the magistrates to obtain an Excise
license. The alteration which he intended to propose
was merely to enable the dealer to obtain a renewal from the
Exise of his licence until he should be convicted of some fault
which would deprive him of his licence ; in fact that he should be
able to renew his licence as long as he behaved properly.
An IloN. MEMBER on the Opposition side of the House said he
presumed this Bill was similar to one of last Session.
Leave granted.

POOR-LA WS (IRELAND).
Lord MORPETH, in rising to move for leave to bring in a
Bill to amend an Act of the Ist and 2d Victoria 1., cap.
56, for the more effectual Relief of the destitute Poor in Ire-
land, stated that his object was to remedy a considerable
degree of perplexity which had arisen consequent upon some of the
clauses of the act referred to. In certain districts of Ireland it
turned out that the machinery for carrying the -tea into operation
did not exist at all, consequently, the Commissioners were at a per-
fect standstill. This would be remedied. Provision would aslo
be made for more accurately defining the boundaries. Provision
had been made in the act for certain preliminary expenses. These
expenses were of a very limited nature, and provision was
intended to be made for raising a limited sum, with
a view to meet them. It was directed by the Act
that appeals should be heard at the Courts of Quarter Sessions,
which were presided over by Assistant Barristers. Now, there
were certain towns where Assistant Barristers did not preside—this
Bill would remedy the evil.
Mr. SHA W said that difficulties had occurred in the city of Dub.
lin with regard to the operation of this Act, which it would be
necessary to relieve by some legislative measure. He hoped that