The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-29 00:00:00

In the Country.

E. Brown and to., woollen manufacturers' Cullompton, Devon-
shire, Dec, 20, at eleven, at the Old London Inn, Exeter—T.
Roach, linendraper, Manchester, Dec. 22, at twrive, at the Com-
missioners' Rooms, Manchester--J. Chiesrnau' victualler, Leeds,
Yorkshire, Dec.: 19, at eleven, at the Court House, Leeds—T.
Fowler, butcher, Market Decping, Liocolashire, Dec. 19, at
eleven, at Standwell's Hotel, Starnfo:d, Lincoleshire—G. Wtight,
merchant, Birmingham, Dec. 20, at eleven, at the Plough and
Harrow Hotel, Edgbaston, Warwickshire—G. Godlier, woollen
draper, Liverpool, Dec. 22, at three, at the Commissioners' Rooms,
-Manchester—J. Coombe, ironmonger, Exeter, Dec. 21, at twelve,
at the Old London Inn. Exeter-1?,. :Tom's, coda dealer, Bristol,
Jan. 12, at twelve, at the Commercial Booms Bristol—J. Hiam,
Temple 13alsall, Warwickshire, Dcc. 20, at twelve, at Dee's Royal
Hotel, Birmingham—J. 'Wright, jun., currier, Stockport, Ches-
hire, Dec. 21, at three, at the Commissioners' Rooms, \lanehcrter
—J. Burrell and H. Crookes, cloth merchants, Huddersfield, Dec.
01, at twelve, at 'the George Inn, Huddersfielii—J. V. Jose,
Poughill, Cornwall, Dec. 28, at ten, at the Bideford Inn, Stratton,
Cornwall—T. Howard, tailor, Burnley, Lancashire, Dec. 27, at
one, at the Bull Inn, Burnley—W. 11. Sugden, linen draper,
Leeds, Dec. 20, at two, at the Commissioners' Rooms, Manchester.
CERTIFICATES, l)ic. 12.

W. Hale, scrivener, Bath—D. Smith, corn miller, Addle-cum-
Eccup' Yorkshire—G. S. Davenport, woollen draper, Chester—
J. Hickman-, merchant, Bitterly, Shropshire—P. F. Chitty, scri-
vener, Shaftesbury, Dorsetshire—T. Ilrufc;rd, coach builder, Bristol.
• PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED.

M: Hewitt and Co., joiners, West Derby, Lancashire-I.
Hudson and Co., silk manufacturers, Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derby-
shire—J. Champ and 'l'. Galley, t,bacco dealers, Bristol—J.
Lewis and R. 131muly, corn-millers, Royston, Yorkshire—S.
Wrigh,.. and D. Wright, bobbin turners, Leeas—J. Eden and Co.,
coachmakers. Devizes, Wiltshire—R. Lon hale and Co., hosiers,
Regent-street, so far as concerns Jane Lonsdale —N. Rogers and
Co., provision merchants, Grey Eagle-street, Spitabields, se far as
regards N. Rogers—T. Allinson and H. .Bailey, boatbuilders,
Hulow, Lancashire_ f. F. Dickinson and J. Fletcher, general
commission agents, London—J. Rathbone and J. Nap"' k' china
manufacturers, Tunstall, Staffordshire—N. Bannatvne and(, so.,
calico printers, Manchester—R. Aspinall and Co.,' Liverpoolo
far as regards T. U. Ryder—J. Day and Co., mill owners, Batley
Carr, Yorkshire, so far as regards R. ar.bell— Heay
nd and
J.
J.
Davis, ironmongers, 13rixton-hill, Surrcy—E. Tomlin
Shepherd, cutlers, Leicester—IV. Gouistoane and J. F. Castle,
shipwrights, L i ver-
schoolmasters, Brieol—J. Antier'''a and Co''
pool—J. Wragg and Co., mustard manufacturers, Norton, Lin-
colnshire, so far as regards J. Wragg.
kiCOTCH SEQUI;sI ItATION.
R °BERT and JAMES MATTHEW' merchants, Dundee,
Dee land 16,
at two, at Sinclair s Hotel, Dundee.
.

The Duke of Hamilton and Lord
.Lincoln, have
authorised their agents in Paris to pay the Prussian and Polish
doctors, Koreff and Walowski, the sum of 1,5001., so that
legal proceedings will be, it is said, stopped.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

not to support measures haying such a tendency.—( Hear,
hear.) He could not admit that supposition. He had not
taken as a Member of Parliament the oath taken by
the Roman Catholic Members. But if the measures which

HOUSE OF LORD S.—Nor. 28.

The House sat at half-past. Four o'Clock.
Mr. Tierney presented papers from the Tax-office, and
the House adjourned during pleasure.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat again on the Wool-
sack at five o'clock. _

hey were reproached with having supported were injurious
to the Established Church, he had violated what was a bind-

... ....... ____
ing moral obligation which he had imposed upon himself.
That he could not admit.—( Hear, hear.) Although he
. . .

Lord DUNC ANON laid on the Table a Report of the
Chancery Commissioners. Also an Order of the Council ap-
pointed for framing laws and regulations relating to the ac-
counts of the treasurers for the cities of Ireland.
The Duke of RIC HM 0 ND moved for a return from the trea-
surer of the county of Middlesex of the sums of money paid
to the matron of the New Prison of Clerkenwell, in lieu of a
partner. The grounds on which he moved for this return
was, that the House had always shown the liveliest interest
in all affairs relating to this country. He was extremely
sorry there were nct the means before the House yet of
making uniform regulations of prison discipline throughout
England. He was aware that the subject was under considera-
tion, but because nothing had been done yet in that respect,
that was no reason why the law as it at present existed should not
be obeyed. When the subject of this prison was under consider-
ation some time since, there was nothing so anxiously required
as that its officers should reside within its walls; instead of that
being the case they did not reside within the walls, although pri-
soners were taken to it at all hours in the day, and frequently in
the night too ; and even the matron did not reside within its
walls. Besides this dereliction of duty, he had heard, though
he could scarcely believe it, that sums of money were paid to
the matron in lieu of having a partner ; and to give an
opportunity of ascei taining the truth of that statement he
moved for the present Return.
Lord EL LE NB 0 ROUGH moved for certain Constabu-
lary Returns relating to Ireland.
Earl MUL GRA VE had no objection to the Returns. The
Noble Earl laid on the table a Return of the number of Me-
morials which had been presented to the Lord Lieutenant in
1837, up to Oct. 1837, and the decisions of the Government
upon them. In laying this return upon the table, his Lordship
might say, in reference to Mr. Howley's charge, that not one
individual to whom he had extended the prerogative of
mercy had again been brought before him.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that would be found to be the result generally.
The only specific charges of this description were two ; one
had been disposed at the Donegal Assizes, where the party
was found not guilty. and in the other case, the accusation
had been retracted.
Earl WINCHIL SEA moved that a humble address be
presented to her Majesty. praying that she would order
a Return to be made of all the murders and homicides
committed in Ireland from the month of January, 1327, to
the month of December, 1837. Also the number of the trials
for murders and homicides during the same period ; likewise
a return of the verdicts of those trials ; and also similar re-
turns during the same period relating to similar cases in Eng-
land. He was induced to move for those returns in consequence
of an observation which fell from the Noble Earl (the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland) last night, in which he drew a compa-
rison between the state of crime committed in the two coun-
tries. He believed, when those returns were laid on the
table, it would be found that a very considerable increase of
crime had taken place in Ireland.
The Earl of M ULG RAVE said that if the Noble E 41.1
was correct in what he stated positively, he wes wrong corn-
paratively.—:( Cheers. )
ROMAN CATHOLICS.

knew the extreme opinions of the Noble Duke, he had, with
very great surprise, heard a Nobleman of his character
propose to meddle with a question so recently passed through
that House, and settled, after much deliberation and difficulty,
by the concurrence of the three branches of the Legislature.
Did the Noble Duke recollect how difficult- it had
been to settle that measure? Did he recollect the great
shock, he might say the convulsion, that was occasioned by it ?
And the great political consequences by which it was fol-
lowed ? Did not the Noble Duke suppose that now to med-
dle with it again—to disturb and unsettle it after it had been
so recently determined, would be accompanied with as much
difficulty—as great a convulsion, and as serious political con-
sequences, as those from which the country was not yet quite
free? The Noble Duke was an advocate of what was called
Conservative principles. These were founded on a determination
and resolution to maintain the great institutions and funda-
mental laws of the country, without excluding salutary
amendments. But nothing could be more contrary to those
Conservative principles, than to attempt in the manner pro-
posed by the Noble Duke to disturb a measure of such mag-
nitude, after it had been finally determined. If there were
any voice of the present day which more than another ought
to be guarded against, it was that desire of innovation, which
perhaps arose out of those very changes which the
Noble Duke was desirous of undoing.—( Hear, hear.)
A measure was adopted after great deliberation, and after
due consideration—it was carried, perhaps, with great
difficulty—and, in the course of one or two years,
it was found not to answer in every respect what had
been anticipated regarding it when it had been introduced.
It was found to be attended with inconveniences which were
not expected, and then it was immediately said, "we must
change and alter—we have not changed and altered enough
—we must make other changes and alterations." That vs as
not in the spirit of a wise legislation, and he wished to guard
the Noble Duke from giving his counsel and support to such a
proceeding. A measure like that of the admission of Roman
Catholics into the offices of the State, and into an equality
with all other of their fellow citizens, was a measure
not to be tried by its immediate effects—not by a
few years' experiment—not by what has followed im-
mediately from it.—( Hear.) It required the experience of
several years to bring out its character and bearings—it re-
quired to be tried under all circumstances ; in times of pros-
perity and in times of adversity—in times of peril and in times
of security—in times of peace and in times of war; and it was
not by the experience of a few years—it was not by a short
period of time that any real opinion could be formed upon the
working and tendency of the measure.—( Hear.) He begged
to submit to the serious consideration of the Noble Duke
whether he was acting according to those priaeioles that he
professed, and upon which he believed the Noble Duke wished
to act, in so lightly lending his authority to disturb a great
settlement so lately effected by the authority of that House
and the other branches of the Legislature. —( Hear, hear. )

The Earl of WINCHEL SEX could not help addressing a
few words to their Lordships, because he looked upon that
petition as one of the greatest importance that had ever come
under their consideration. It contained a clear intimation that a
feeling was arising on the part of the Protestants of the em-
pire thatthose securities which were promised to the Protest-
ant institutions of the State had proved perfectly inefficient,
and that danger did exist, if not throughout the whole
of the empire, at least undoubtedly in Ireland, to every
thing connected with the Protestant religion.—( Hear, hear.)
During the time the Emancipation Bill was under discussion,
he had endeavoured to impress upon their Lordships the no-
sity of withholding their consent to those concessions, firmly
believing that, instead of giving tranquillity to Ireland, the
very power they were conceding would be used for still
further innovation, on everything connected with Protestan-
tism in that part of the country. Nobody could doubt that a
Protestant Parliament had been established for the security of
the Protestant institutions in Church and State. He believed
that many Noble Lords were induced to give their support to
the Catholic Relief Bill upon the firm and honest conviction
that the opinions expressed by so many leading members of the
Roman Catholic Church would be fully acted upon, and that
the power which their Lordships were then conceding would
not in any way he employed for the purpose of endangering
the institutions in the Protestant Church of this country. If
their Lordships referred to the evidence given by that powerful
man who now wielded the whole power of the Roman Catho-
lic interests in that country, they would see it distinctly and
clearly stated by that individual, that he never would propose
to their Lordships, or recommend to their Lordships, that any
measure of concession should be granted unless complete
security was given to the Protestant Church in that country.
Looking back to the evidence in 1823, he found that
evidence delivered in these words—and it was painful to
him ever to speak on this subject, for lie was afraid of offend-
ing the feelings of those who differed from him conscientiously
in their religious opinions, and he would most honestly state
that there was net a man lining who would feel more unfeigned
pein than him if he gave any cause of offence to any individual
Member of that House; but before he proceeded with the evi-
dence lie would remind them that dining the time that great
measure was gohig through the House, he repeatedly deelar, d
his firm and hci:est conviction, that the members of the
Church of Punic would use the political power their Lord-
ships were about to concede to them in a very different way
from that which was then professed. The Noble Lord then
referred to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell. lie did not
charge the rneniLers of the Roman Catholic Church who were
admitted into the other House of Parliament, as a body, of
acting whli similar views and designs, which he firmly believed 11
the great body of their Priesthood were doir's for the total de-
structien, not only of the Protestant Chereli, but of Protestant
connection with the country; but if anybody leoleecl to the opinions
of the individual whose evidence belied just referred to, it would
be found that he had repea• edly stated to the public that he
would not he satisfied until that ez,•abl shmeat was overthrown,
which he looked upon as an incubus upon the land. The senti-
ments which he had now the boldness to declare, at such variance
with the evidence which he had formerly given, had
justly caused an apprehension in the minds of the
Protestants of this country, that that power would not only be
• employed in the destruction of that institution, but would end
in a violent internal civil commotion. Sincerely did the Noble
Lord hope that that end would be averted ; but to avert
it, there was but one course to be taken, and that was by the
great body of the members of our Church taking every oppor-
tunity of declaring they did not concur in such sentiments.
He firmly believed, however, that the feeling was spreading
in the country which Mr. O'Connell was diffusing ; and he
hoped in God it would not terminate as he had anticipated ;
but, anxious as he was to extend the enjoyment of
all privileges to all persons, however they might
differ from him in . religious opinions—steeling as he
did, that if ha belonged to the Roman Catholic Church
he should use his power as many were now doing—he
must :ay, that if a measure were brought forward for the ex-
clusion of members of that Church from a seat in Parliament
it should have his meat cordial support.
Lord BROUGHAM said it was with deep regret he had
heard the speech which had been just delivered, not because of
the arguments used by the Noble Lord—not because any. co-
gency of the facts, as they were alleged to be, which were con-
tained in the petition—but because of the high character en-
foyed by the Noble Earl, because of the well known consoien-
cious discharge of the:dutyMsvhich devolved upon him as a
legislator, that would give his opinions out of the
House, it would tell wiih double force upon the public mind
upon a question which was fearfully calculated to do much
mischief to the general peace of the country. Therefore it
was that he trusted the Noble Earl would give to his judg-
ment the same scope which did upon almost all
occasions to his feelings and his passions. Upon further
reflection, and in the exercise of a calm judgment he (Lord
B ) was quite sure that the Noble Earl would adopt a very
different conclusion to that which he had thought it his
duty to come to upon the present occasion. What was
it that was asked in that year of the nineteenth
century to which they had now arrived ? Was it not
extraordinary, that having arrived at this, the 37th year of the
19th century, they should have a petition from, he must say, a
respectable body of his fellow-subjects, he was happy to say a
small one—what was it that they were asked to do ? Was it to
take new securities from their Catholic fellow-subjects, because
those formerly enacted had failed ? Was it that they were to
take measures of precaution against an avowed enemy ? No
such thing—they were called upon to retrace their steps.
These were easy words—they were very vague and general, and
at first did not forcibly strike the mind. '1 hey, however, went
much further than appearances at first sight warranted one in
believing. They meant nothing less than a Repeal of the
Relief Bill of 1829 ; and then to make the measure
more practicable and.. palatable, the Noble Duke
who introduced the Petition wished that the
repealing part of the new measure, should confine itself en-
tirely to the sister country (Ireland). England was to be fa-
voured with having a right to choose Catholics for their
representatives, but iii Ireland, where the population
was Catholic, to the amount of six millions out of
eight—because that such a number of persons were
conscientious Catholics—because they conscientiously differed.
from conscientious Protestants, they were to be refused the
right of choosing any one belonging to their own religion as
their Representatives in Parliament. Not contented with this,
but to make the measure more practicable, more palatable to
the country—in order to make the people more in love with the
House of Peers—Catholic Lords with their descendants were to
be allowed to sit and vote,while the Catholic Commoner shall not
even have the right to choose any one belonging to his own
Church. Could you stop there ? No ; when once you turn
backwards it is not at 1829 you must stop ; it is not at the
last hill that you must stop and pause ; you must
trace back you steps till you come to the year 1793.
Nay, that would not do. You must take security for all
that was done in 1778.—( Cheers.) But the Noble Lord
said, Oh I we are not afraid of that. All that we are afraid
of is Catholics sitting in Parliment. The Constitution
of' Church and State will not be safe till they are excluded.
He would grant, for the sake of the argument, that things
were worse in 1829 than they were now ; did not that same ob-
servation apply to 1778, when there was all but a military
revolution, and after that in 1793 ; then was the great rebellion.
The Noble Duke opposite, whose very name could not be
mentioned connected with the battles of his country but
with veneration and respect—that Noble Duke, regardless
of all clamour, and in the firm belief that he was doing that
which was his duty to his country, had introduced the Catho-
lic Emancipation Bill—a Bill which, in his (Lord B.'s)
opinion, had conferred the greatest benefits on the country, and
the introduction of which alone would carry the Noble Duke's
name to posterity. The country owed a debt of deep gratitude

The Duae of NEWCASTLE then rose for the purpose of
presenting the petition of which he had given notice, praying
that Roman Catholics might not be allowed to form any part
of the Legislature. The Noble Lord agreed most cor-
dially with the prayer of the petition. With respect to
the oath to he taken, it was the firm opinion of the
Noble Duke that it was totally disregarded by all Catholics.
--(Cheers.) Nothing could be more highly creditable and
praiseworthy, and at the same time so honourable to the
parties, as such a straightforward course. It did appear to
him, that as there was at present no security at all, it
would be very proper for their Lordships to adopt some
measure which would prevent parties from doing anything
injurious to the institutions of the country. When he said
institutions, he meant, of course, the Protestant institutions
connected with Church and State, He (lid not mean himself

to make any proposition on the subject ; but he would merely
remark in presenting this petition, that he thought as re-
garded Ireland it would be desirable to frame some measure
by which Roman Catholics would be excluded front the Irish
representation.
Vie petition was then read as follows :—" The petition of the
undersigned—numb y showeth, That your petitioners regard
the admission of Roman Catholics to leeisiative power as
and at variance with Christian duty, with the Protest-
ant principles and character of tile British Constitution.
" That peril to the Protestant religion, and more im-
mediately to the Established Churches of the United
Kingdom, having been apprehended from the admis-
sion of Roman Catholics to legislative power, in order
to obviate this danger, and as an adequate security for our
Protestant Esteblisenta, it was, by the Act of the year one
thousand eight hundred and twenty-nine, fur the relief of
his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, enacted, that all
members of that communion should, previously to entering on
their legislative functions, swear that they will defend, to
the utmost of their power, the settlement of property within
this realm, as established by the laws,' and also that
they do 'disclaim, disavow, and solemnly abjure any inten-
tion to subvert the • present Church Establishment, as set-
tled by law within this realm ;' and further, that th-. 2/ ne-
ver will exercise any privilege to which they are or may be-
come entitled, to disturb or weaken the Protestant e eligion or
Protestant Government in the United Kingdom.' That, not-
withstanding the security which this solemn oath was intended
to provide, Roman Catholic Members of the Legislature have used
their utmost exerti,us, i i as well as out of Pari ime:;t, for the
destruction of the Church Establishment, cspecielly of that
part of it existing in Ireland ; That they h :ve votrd for the
alienation of its property, a measure characterised by his late
Majesty's Prime Minister, its advocate in the House of Peers,
as a heavy blow to Protestantism in Ireland ;' And that they
have also voted for the subtraction of Church-rates from the re-
venues of the Church ef England, not scrupling to avow, as their
ulterior object, that the State should withdraw its support al-
together from any particular denomination of Christians, leav-
ing all alike to the precarious maintenance of the voluntary
system, but with the ultimate design, as your petitioners are
convinced, of finally establishing the domination of the Popish
superstition.
" Your Petitioners humbly submit to your Lordships' Hon-
ourable House that the foregoing brief statement establishes,
beyond all controversy, the two following facts
4' I. That, upon the admission of Romaa Catholics to Par-
liament, a certain security was intended to be provided by the
Legislature for the Church Establishment ;
" 11. That the security has proved wholly inefficacious.
" Under these circumstances your Petitioners humbly
submit to your Lordships' Honourable House, that it is
absolutely necessary to devise some more effectual safe-
guard for our National Estabiishments. That scriptural
authority, and the principles of the British Constitu-
tion, as well as experience, call for the total exclu-
sion of Roman Catholios from the Legislature ; and your
Petitioners humbly implore your Right Honourable House to
take such steps as may be deemed advisable, for the accom-
plishment of this essential object.
" And your Petitioners will ever pray, &c."
Viscount LORTON said in the observations which he was
about to address to their Lordships, he was not influenced
by the too prevalent spirit of party ;—a system of concession,
under the futile idea that conciliation had been carried
to such an extent, that a vast political power had been
placed in the hands of a body of men closely connec-
ted with a Foreign State, and that Foreign State
most decidedly hostile to the liberty, the religion, and the
institutions of this great empire. Having been almost con-
stantly a resident in Ireland since he became a landed proprietor,
and having witnessed the unhappy rebellion of 1798 while
serving in the county of Wexford, and subsequently as
a general officer in the Western district, it might be
supposed that he had acquired some knowledge of the
country, and the impression upon his mind, as to the pre-
sent state of that unfortunate part of the empire, was, that it
was in a tenfold worse condition than it was in the lamentable
period to which he had alluded. He might be fairly called
upon to account for that opinion, and he thought he should
have no difficulty in doing so. The political power granted
to the Roman Catholics in 1829, had been, and still was, al-
together wielded and overruled by the Clergy of the
Roman Catholic Church, who were almost altogether
inveterate antagonists of every thing Protestant and English.
And he could assure their Lordships, that never at any period
was persecution carried to a greater extent.—( Hear, hear. )
It was erroneously supposed that a certain set of men called
agitators, and one gentleman in particular, were the cause of
all those disturbances in Ireland. He could assure their
Lordships that they were but a second cause. The agitators
were obliged to obey the orders of the Church, and most
ardently and zealously did they carry them into effect. If
their Lordships hoped to establish tranquillity and prosperity
in that most unfortunate portion of her Majesty's dominions,
they must first endeavour to ameliorate the condition of the
people both Protestant and Catholic. Something must be
speedily done for the relief of the Irish people. The greater
portion of them were without any species of employment and
in a state of positive destitution. In the few observations he
was about to make, he would refrain from making any allusions to
her Majesty's Government in Ireland or the Noble Lord at the
bead of it, hoping that that Noble Lord would in future be more
tender in his observations with respect to the Irish landlords;
he would also refrain from making mis-statements with re-
spect to the outrages which had taken place, though it was
only yesterday that he had heard of two fresh ones, tecause
they had been brought forward by a Noble Friend of his so
feelingly the night before that it would be a work of
supererogation for him to say ally thing on the subject;
but when the Election Petitions came before Parliament,
their Lordships would hardly believe that such atrocities
were committed in any civilized or Christian country
and more particularly in a country so closely connected with
this, he trusted, still great Protestant empire. He would not
trouble their Lordships with more upon this subject, but give
his earnest support to the petition which had been laid on the
table, and sincerely did he hope that it would be followed by
numerous others from every part of the kingdom.
Lord MELBOURNE was very unwilling to trouble their
Lordships on this occasion, as he believed that there were
few within the walls of that House who agreed in the
facts stated by the Noble Duke and in the petition.
(Hear.) But he could not quietly hear the statement of the
Noble Duke, that the Roman Catholic members of that House,
or the other House of Parliament, had violated their oaths by
the votes they had given on some questions. That asser-
tion was founded on the supposition that the measures
for which those Catholic Members bad voted were injurious
to the Established Church, as their oath bound them

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 1537.

to the Noble Duke for the introduction and carrying of that
measure ; and if the House we; e to go back, and to repeal that
measure, it would be necessary not only to go so far as the
period at which that measure was introduced, but they
must go back to the period of 1773 and 1798.
"My Lords" continued the Noble and Learned Lord), " I
hope and trust that Noble Lords opposite will pause before
they make assertions neither dictated by good sense, judg-
ment, or charitable sentiments, before they denounce their
fellow-citizens, and fellow-christians. My Lords, when
the members of the Government conscientiously bring forward
measures which they believe the welfare of their country re-
quires them to support—if Noble Dukes and Noble Earls,
and these petitioners, take a different view of the probable
tendency of those measures, are these Ministers to be
gravely charged with having forsworn themselves—with
having broken the oaths which they have taken ?—(Hear.)
My Lords, I have never read the oath according to the gloss
which these petitioners have put upon it.—( Hear, hear.)
I have never taken that oath as hampering the honest and
conscientious discharge of Parliamentary duty. I never
believed it was possible for Parliament to prescribe an oath to
its Members, that should tie up their hands, and fetter
their judgments.—(Hear, and cheers.) My Lords, in so
doing they would be utterly regardless of Parliamentary duty.
My Lords, were Ito admit what I utterly deny—but if I were
to admit even in point of law that which I again say I deny in the
most positive manner, that the votes I have given and the measures
which I have supported, have had any the slightest tendency
to bring them within the scope of the violent and strained
construction which has been put upon the oath taken by the Ca-
tholic Members—l have heard on this occasion reference made
to an expression of my Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) that
one of those measures was a heavy blow and a great discou-
ragement to the Protestant Church in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
But my Noble Friend last night in a manner the most
satisfactory explained those words ; he read the words in con-
nection with the context, and the omitted parts of the pas-
sage, whereby it appeared that what my Noble Friend said
was, that the contemplated measure might be temporarily felt
as a heavy blow., and might for a time operate as a
discouragement to the Protestant Church in Ireland ; but that
they would be more than counterbalanced by the benefits
which the same Church would ultimately derive from the
same measure.—( bear.) I thought at the time when my
Noble Friend was making his explanation, that he was
doing not only a superfluous act, but an act alto-
gether useless and ineffectual. I knew that the explanation
would be forgotten, and that the misapprehension would sur-
vive.—( Hear, and a laugh.) And just so it was, my Lords.
My Noble Friend only last night most satisfactorily and
completely explained the misrepresentation, and this very
night within 24 hours, the misstatement is repeated.—( Hear. )
It is possible—it is probable that the petition was
drawn up before.—( Hear.) Nevertheless that explanation
which came from my Noble Friend last night
was open ; it was acceptable to every one—Petitioner,
Noble Duke, Noble Earl, or any one here or out of doors, who
chose to resort to the proper quarter for that explanation. But
it was more convenient for their argument not to understand
—( Hear, hear)—and they chose to take that part which made
for them, and to omit with dexterity that part which made
for my Noble Friend. My Noble Friend will not find all
that passed last night, or even at the present time, will sa-
tisfy those who are determined to misunderstand him.
He will hear, if it is any thing to his comfort, of a heavy blow
and great discouragement to the Established Church as often
as the Established Church happens to be the subject of con-
troversy either here or elsewhere.--( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
I myself know the utter uselessness, the utter insignificance
of all explanation and of all contradiction, although my No-
ble Friend had chapter and verse whereon to ground his con-
tradiction.—( Loud laughter.) Years ago expressions were
used respecting myself, that I had said, " Little had been
done last session, and less would be done next." That
went over the whole country like wildfire. I took the earli-
est opportunity of contradicting that. I had always before
known hew useless and unavailing it was to contradict asser-
tions of that description.—(Hear, hear, hear, and Cheers.)
I then made a statement—it was printed—it was signed by
me—it was circulated, not very widely perhaps—that I never
had said any such thing ; that what I had said was, that dur-
ing the two preceding sessions--namely, of 1833 and 1834,
there had been ten or twelve most important measures passed,
the most important since the passing of the Reform Bill; and that
they who thought there had been too little done during these
two Sessions, might he quite well assured there would be less
the next Session. Why, because the things were done—the
measures were not to be brought forward—and such measures
could not have been brought in. Well, the statement was re-
ceived, and they said then it was all very satisfactory ; but what
then—why, they instantly forgot it—friend and enemy ; the
enemy proceeded to ground his charge against me upon it;
and the friend instead of denying it as I had done, admitted it;
said it was an expression used in the heat of the moment, and
argued in extenuation on my behalf upon it. Nov nd person
could know the truth of that more or better than my Noble
Friend (Lord Melbourne). Nobody knew better the
real facts that the Ministers of the Crown, because they knew
the measures which had been brought in, they knew the mea-
sures which were in progress, and which were undoubtedly to
be brought forward at the commencement of the
next Parliament ; but still they considered it was better
for them to let all those things be said—to let all those
charges be blaeught forward, though they knew their utter
want of foundation—batter to stand by in silence and let
persons—l will not say agents employed by them—but to
let persons circulate those reports—let the reports run
like wildfire over the country, they standing mutely
and silently bye.—( Hear.) My Lords, I only mention
that, to sley,v my Noble Friend how unsatisfactory it is to con-
tradict. The slander is always much more highly spiced—
the one is more of the nature of vinegar—(Hear, hear)__
the other more oily—( Hear, hear)—the one remains
on the palate—the other glides smoothly away ; the one passes
over—the other runs its course until time enables the per-
son against whom the charges are brought to outlive
and overcome the sting and enmity of the poisoned shaft.
My Lords, I must say that I seriously and earnestly hope
that the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord opposite, and those
whom they represent, will apply their minds to the real state
of the country, and that, speaking technically, they would
cease to agitate what I cannot avoid designating as one of the
wildest and most monstrous projects ever broached to Parlia-
ment. Fcr what can be more monstrous than retracing their
steps and abolishing the good they have done merely on the
disappointment of their expectations, on the ground of the
alleged perjury of men acting under what they conceive a
conscientious regard to the Oaths which they have taken:
The Earl of MUL GRAVE rose to correct a misapprehen-
sion under which the Noble Viscount (Lorton) laboured, and
which he had stated in vindication of his support to the in-
troduction cf this petition, and it related to the offences com-
mitted in the sister country. The Noble Viscount had
stated his conviction that the outbreaks which were casually
occurring in different parts of that country were connected
with the members of one religious persuasion. Now he
(the Earl of Mulgrave) would not be dealing candidly with
the House did he withhold from them the fact that the Noble
Viscount had formed a most erroneous conclusion. He had
received a report of an outrage lately committed in the
county of Monaghan,• communicated in a letter from a sti-
pendiary Magistrate of that county, in which it was stated
that an armed body of 50 men had the night before gone about
the place and broken into several houses ; that all the houses
assailed were those of Catholics ; and that all the persons
implicated in the transaction and who had been apprehended
were Protestants. He would be the last person to found a
general charge on an individual instance, or to bring an accu-
sation against any religious body, least of all against the
members of the persuasion to which he himself belonged, and
he would ask the Noble Viscount whether he was justified in
placing those outrages to the credit of the religious feelings of
one persuasion? He would adduce another instance of the
impropriety of such a course. A sermon was preached on
the sth of November in Manor Hamilton, against the system
pursued in the national schools, and on the Bth of November
the schools were burnt down. Now this showed the impro-
priety of enlarging on topics which were of such a nature as
to lead to the possibility of their being taken in a wrong
point of view. Since that period the Rev. Mr. Douglas, a
clergyman living in the neighbourhood of the schools, had re-
ceived a threatening letter, stating that if he did not restore
the money which he had collected for building the schools, he
would meet with the same fate—destruction. He besought
Noble Lords, therefore, not to mix up any attempt to violate
the law with any religious feeling.
Viscount LORTON, in explanation, stated that the reason
he had not referred to specific outrages, was because he in-
tended at a future time to bring forward an innumerable list
of such outrages.
Lord MUL GRAVE said a few words in explanation, and
the petition was ordered to be laid on the table.
Lord E LLENBOROUG II moved for sortain returns, and
the House adjourned till to-morrow.

inconvenience, irregularity, and abuse had arisen by the deviation
from the principles of the English and Scotch Reform Bills in
framing the Irish Reform Bill, and that, in consequence of
there being no annual revision of the registers, frauds of every
species, had been practised. The petitioners also prayed that
additional polling places might be erected. The Hon. and
Learned Sergeant also presented a petition from Cloninel to
the same effect.

HOUSE OF COJIMONS.—Nor. 28.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.

CHARITIES COMMISSION.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL brought up the Report of the
Charities Commission.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Noble Lord whether it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government, after having
expended 200,000/. in inquiring into the state of Public Cha-
rities, to bring in any Bill which would do away with the
necessity of instituting such inquiry again ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—The subject had engaged the
attention of her Majesty's Government, but as the inquiry
had been instituted, and the Bill originally introduced by Lord
Brougham, they were anxious to obtain his advice and assist-
ance before taking any step of that nature.
Sir E. SUG DIN objected very strongly to the recommen-
dation of the Commissioners to appoint any tribunal for
the trial of Charity cases. He had devoted a good deal
of time and attention to the matter, and was therefore
better able to pronounce an opinion upon its impolicy. He
should oppose to the utmost of his power any motion for the
appointment of such a tribunal. Nothing could be more mis-
chievous than cutting out the great Courts of Justice, and
substituting smaller ones, which could not possess the same
amount of legal knowledge or experience.
Lord J. RUSSELL regretted that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman having devoted so much patience and attention to
the subject had not bestowed a little more of both upon the re-
port and recommendations of the Commissioners before he had
uttered such a censure.—( Hear, hear.)
The Report was then laid on the table.
FICTITIOUS VOTES—IRELAND.
Lord G. SOME RSET moved the re-appointment of the
Committee on fictitious votes ( Ireland). He did not expect that
there would be any opposition to his motion ; he would, there-
fore, not trouble the House with any observations at pre-
sent, reserving to himself the right to address the House
in answer to any observations that might be offered. He
moved that a Committee be appointed to enquire how
far the intentions of the Reform Bill for Ireland had been de-
feated by the making of fictitious votes.
Mr. HUM E said the words of the resolution were very
vague ; perhaps the Noble Lord would explain to the House
what meaning he put upon them?
Lord G. SOMERSET had adopted the words of the re-
solution of last year.
The motion was then agreed to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped that the Noble Lord
would be pleased to defer the naming of the Committee
until to-morrow, as he believed his Noble Friend, the
Secretary for Ireland, had some propositions to make to vary
the names composing the Committee.
Lord G. SOMERSET had taken the names exactly as
they stood last year. The only alterations he had made
were the substituting of two names for the names of two
Gentlemen who were not now in Parliament. He would
prefer that that list be now agreed to ; of course, leaving it
open to the Government to make any alterations hereafter
%,N hich it thought proper.
Lord J. RUSSE LL hoped that the Noble Lord would
still allow the matter to stand over, as there were some names
on the Committee belonging to that side of the House who
could not possibly attend, and it was advisable that a proper
Committee should be named at first.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that there could be no objec-
tion whatever to the names which had been proposed to
form part of the Committee from the gentlemen on the
other side of. the House. With respect, however, to the At-
torney-General for Ireland, he was afraid that that Learned
Gentleman had so much business on his hands as to render it
almost impossible for him to attend. There were abundant
materials for legislation, but he was afraid that if the course
proposed were to be adopted there would be no termination to
the labours of the Committee.
Lord G. SOMERSET said, with respect to the Attorney-
General for Ireland, if his duties were so great as to prevent
his attendance, nothing could be more easy than to remove
his name.
After a few observations from Mr. SHAW, the motion
was agreed to.

Mr. Fyler appeared at the Bar and presented returns rela-
tive to the Contingency Fund, which were laid on the Table.
Mr. HAWKE S presented a petition from an individual
named Pat king, praying that a Government Engineer might be
appointed to examine all Railways before being used by the
public.
SHEFFIELD WARE.

The Hon. Member also presented a petition from the ma-
nufacturers of Sheffield, complaining of the frauds practised
on them by the introduction into the market of foreign manu-
facture with illicit marks.
SLAVERY IN THE COLONIES.

Mr. W. EVANS moved that an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, praying for a return of the number of
children apprenticed in the Colonies under the Slavery Abo-
lition Law.—Ordered.
HULL ELECTION.

Mr. C. L ANGDALE presented a petition from certain
electors of Hull, against the return of the two sitting Members.
Mr. HOUSTON presented a petition from Paisley, com-
plaining of the present rates of postage throughout the country.
Mr. H. FLEETWOOD presented a petition from the
Board of Guardians of the Preston Union, deprecatory of
the Poor Laws Amendment Bill.

Sir E. WILMOT presented several petitions from parishes
in Cambridge, praying for leave to introduce a Bill for making
a road.

On the motion of the Horn. MEMBER, an account was or-
dered of the sums paid as drawback upon timber imported for
and used in the Mines in Cornwall and Devon in each year
since such drawback was allowed.

over
now to
had passed, carrying into effect the reforms suggested by them, elections. This was a subject which affected,everY
now came forward to propose their abolition —( Hear, in the Hou:e ; and as t!ie House ha 4 the he wade
hear.) If the House of Commons took that course in one gulvte those fees, he thought that an inquiry ou&ahtt,..° e
ueraniitiee
instance, it would very soon be called upon to take it in others. into the subject. He concluded by
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House to inquire into the eve=a.l fees on mthevitnrial°Orf
rests 114 ht
divided, when the numbers were— elections, and to consider how far lhe public inte
For the introduction of the Bill 53 be I,rbmoted by an alteration of those fees. would cod-
Against it 159 Mr. WARBURTON hoped that the inquiry
Majority lO6 prehend the fees paid to counsel. -hich at pre-
GRAND JURIES. The SPEAKER said that the scale of fees
w filled thc
Mr. PR YME then rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill sent existed was settled who() Mr Speaker Onsoa
16 to
but
WC
to abolish Grand Juries in England. In doing so he chair. The Slicker c,a.ild merely a. Point an I; !cent
controverted
had to beg the kind indulgence of the House, as he the feta un,'er the prov':i. Act of Par"a—
was aware that the subject, though one of great and general irc. he had i.o further co,tr >lover these f es.
portance, was not a very entertaining one. At times it becanbar . The motion was then agreed to, and the CJEa'aittee BP-
necessary to enquire whether certain institutions had not out- pointed.
lived their usefulness, and did not then answer the end for
which they were instituted. At one time the Grand Jury
system was justly considered as one of the great bulwarks
of English liberty ; but now they were no more than an ap-
peal from the committing Magistrate. According to Lord
Somers, who was high authority upon the point, Grand Juries
were instituted to search out crime—to find out offences, and
not as now, merely to put cases in a train for trial.
In his opinion the rand Jury system was in many cases an
obstruction to justice.—(Cheers.) In Scotland there were
no Grand Juries, but there was a public prosecutor ; and when
a judgment was given against any one, it was submitted to the
Lord Advocate or the Sheriff. He was not about to propose the
adoption of any such principle in this country, although it would
be competent for him to do so if he thought it would do good.
The Hon. Member proceeded to quote a variety of evidence
as to the inefficiency of Grand Juries. Mr. Harvey
Combes, the magistrate of the Lambeth Police-office
(as we understood), had stated before a Committee of
the House of Commons, that the Grand Juries as at present
constituted were an impediment rather than an advancement
to justice. The Recorder of Worcester (we believe) had
said (before the same Committee), " after a man had been
imprisoned for several weeks, it ought not to be left-to a
secret tribunal to determine whether there was a sufficient
case against him." He wanted no intervening tribunal.
He conceived that in the present state of the Magis-
tracy in England and Wales, filled as it was by en-
lightened and intelligent gentlemen, such a tribunal was not
necessary. If it were contended that it would be a
saving of time, he did not admit the force of such an
argument; if there were a gain of time in one respect
there would be a still greater loss in another. The
time of the Judge, would, no doubt be saved ; but then they
would occupy the time of from three to five thousand gentle-
men during the year, and in this point of view, more of the
time of the country would be consumed. But he would
never admit that time was a consideration in such cases.

P. -
Mr. FITZROY moveOd forST-OFFICa return of the names of all
ern co-'
persons in the service of the Post-office against wh
e,
plaints had been made fur having voted at the last
.leiL the
and 1.7Th0 had been dismissed in consequence. Durn),ot of
last election at Lewes an individual in the ernployau
of
the Post-office had voted for himself, and in consequln;i: be
so voting he had been removed from his situation• l‘n_ wes
had every reason to believe that, though this persracaaa,_ to
dismissed from his situation, the same rule was not made to
apply to others in a similar situation who had voted forbe'ob..
did ,tes in the interest of the Government. toasl46
to
tamed these returns it would be impossible forlihnitmil
further steps in this case; the only thing he could do ws_
was,
call for the return, which would show whether this ea nWould
• t,isoiss
as lie believed it to be, one of extreme hardship. I
be a different thing if it was the general practice to,n
for one
all persons filling such situations, if th voted ie..
party or the other. But he believed thereey never svalibeen
stance ,in which the authority of the Government ht, lest
so strongly and unconstitutionally exercised as ate the
a;
general election.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear" be bed
Oosition.) This was his conviction from what! owe
seen in the public papers; and, at all events, if the its
he moved for were granted it would set the matter
in
true light. The 6'6
Mr. F. BARING rose to second the motion. -, fist a
was simply this : In the 'year 1835 it had been founn_
'
great number of complaints had been made of partieartei
netted with the Government and revenue offices haviligrres-
in the election of that year. In consequence of.a oo-
pondence which had been laid on the table of the Hosed, oo
lice had been given to all parties that if they again "twhich
matter for whom, they would incur severe displeasure, „ was
was understood to mean a dismissal. The consequene;este.
that every person against whom complaint was made °Libel. for
blished of having voted, was dismissed. The Hon. Member
Lewes stated that he had seen in the public papers a loots. .
of complaints against the different government dePar„,! publis
Now, he must say that as far as the accusations in I'l'oo
papers were concerned, he was not inclined to paylllc/2r of $
attention ; but his attention had been called to a lette
toe,
Member of Parliament, connected with his own COOT With
in reference to these cases, charged the Government ens
being guilty of gross oppression and canting and el: bring-
hypocrisy. Now, when a gentleman had the means ofd
soca
ing forward these cases in the House of Commons, an, Cllr.
he made these grave charges and used this language, `e the
Boring) thought that the Hon. Member ought to briltlgee to
charges forward in the House, where he would be In,,,etki.allon'
face. —(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) iu,,por-
Member for Lewes had given the Government a fai,r, °„rarcl;
tunity of meeting any charges he intended to bring int-tory,
of this, therefore, he made no complaint, but, on the 011!., his
he would give the Hon. Member all the information 1"
power. ntioa
Sir C. KNIGHTLEY said that he could himself inewhi.ob
an instance of the perversion of Government influence wade
had happened in his county. An application bad beent.offiee
to the Postmaster- General to establish a penny rs" atioe
at Daventry. The Postmaster-General required man of
to enable him to appoint a proper person. The clerF)lThe'oths
the place recommended a proper person, but in three ino ar
after another person was appointed, and the person lel
pointed was a young lady only sixteen years old. The c mended
man wrote to inquire why the person he had reconiin:eted;
had not been appointed, and why the other was °PP° re'
and the reply was, that the party so appointed liad hood
commended by the Treasury. The appointment was a being
deal canvassed in consequence of the party appointed t was
only sixteen years of age, and ultimately the appointinen tbas
thus set aside. The young lady whose appointment vlersoa
set aside was the daughter of a Dissenter. The neat". fir
appointed of the name of Lee was also a Dissenter, an"-
lent opponent of hit (Sir Charles Knightley). the
Mr. F. BARING said he would certainly inquire in° the
circumstances complained of. As he believed, hovveve:r.h' re,
state of the case was this—that the clergymanof the parw-poli-
commended a person who was strongly in favour of sliedoee
tics of the Hon. Member, and that the Treasury
thinkingappointe.
who was not quite so strongly inclined to that way of sp.
He could only add, that so long as the Treasury had these vie
pointments the Hon. Gentleman was likely very often 1°
similar grounds of complaint.—( A laugh and cheers.) „louse
Mr. WARBURTON thought that in fairness the 'Joie
ought to have similar returns of the election of 1835. in de
to see how many persons of this description had voted 1111, bsa
Tory Government, and whether the Whig Governmen"
any
M fair grounds for interference.—( Hear.) noDY
• r. F. BARING said the return would only give 1— thig
ber of persons who had been complained against for 1°
under such circumstances.
Mr. WARBURTON thought such a return ought 01 be
given. surf
Mr. G. F. YOUNG thought that whilst upon this surios
the House ought to distinctly understand whether, if 111°ileis is
and authority of Government had been assumed by Paar:d-clot
the course of the late elections, for the purpose of 1011%-eriti
the returns, such influence was used by direction or an`.ofoa,
of Government. With respect to the proceedings in clu`., oaf
he thought that Government should not lend itself in any
to influence the elections, whether by preventing POP°i 0,
voting or otherwise.
Mr. F. BARING begged to remind the Hon. Geed
acted
that the Government, in acting as they bad done, ha" the
under the distinct authority of an Act of Parliatnen.l'cd io
42d Ueo. 111., which declared that if any person 01100 to
any way in the collection of the revenue should presu„nila b°
at elections for Members of Parliament, he shn'oing
subject to a penalty of 5001., and be incapacitated for he
any public office in future. Ae
Mr. YOUNG -explained—He was aware of the rant
of
sof
Parliament in question ; but was anxious to know whet',,,,-r tha
such influence had been used as he had referred to tin'y
sanction of Government. rons
Captain PECHELL thought it extremely ungene' AO'
the Hon. Member for Lewes to throw out insinuations agalfter
Government which were totally unfounded
the latter had acceded to his motion for these returns. hi not
the insinuations of the Hon. Member been true, be v/0°
have then been in that place to bring forward his motion'The motion was then agreed to.
COMMISSION OF THE PEACE Bliikin
On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GENE3'd to r
Bill was read a second time and committed, ancLordere
read a third time to-morrow (this
day.
The House then adjourned at Twenty Minutes after Eigbt.

They ought alone to consider how justice could be fairly
arki impartially administered. He would 'not occupy the
time of the House further than to express a hope
that if his motion had no other effect, it would call attention
to the subject; and that there would be further opportunities of
discussing it. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for leave
to bring in a Bill to abolish Grand Juries in England and Wales.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not know why the
Hon. Member had omitted to do " justice to Ireland" by
omitting that country from the provisions of the Bill.—( A
laugh.) He believed the fiscal functions of the Grand Jury
could not be better administered in any country than in Eng-
land ; but there might be some better system adopted with
regard to their criminal jurisdiction.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") If the present system, however, were abolished, it
would require at least 100 additional officers to carry into effect
the law of the country. 'They would require a Procurator
Fiscal, or public prosecutor, in every county, as they had in
Scotland. The Hon. Member had given an instance of 1-3,300
persons, in regard to whom bilis had been ignored, but that
was one of the best proofs of the utility of Grand Juries.
For these reasons, he, for one, would not consent to abolish
the power of Grand Juries without some good substitute being
proposed.
Mr. WARBURTON objected to the system of throwing
out Bills without due consideration, merely,because their prin-
ciple was new. He could instance many measures introduced
by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, which were open to
the same imputation. He hoped his Hon. Friend would be
allowed to bring in his Bill,-and if her Majesty's Attorney-
General thought a public prosecutor necessary, he could intro-
duce a clause for that purpose.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the Hon. Member for
Bridport had fairly represented the observations of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman. If changes like that proposed by
the Bill were to be made, he thought it essential that all the
details should be fairly before the House, but it did not ap-
pear to him that the Bill before them made any provision
or substitute for the authority which it intended to abolish.
He (Lord .John Russell) nas not prepared to abolish Grand
Juries, unless some strong case had been made out against the
present system.
Mr. AGLIONBY would support tFc motion of the Hon.
Member for Cambridge, without pledging himself to its de.
tails. He hoped the House would allow the Bill to be brought
in, as it was evident that the House was not now prepared to
enter upon a discussion on the subject.
Mr. MAUL E objected to any discussion being taken upon
the introduction of a measure like that now before the House ;
he should, however, support the motion of the Honourable
Member for Cambridge.
Sir R. PEEL
.considered it not possible to maintain the
argument that they ought to refuse to allow of the introduction
of any Bill with respect to which it was not probable that it
would pass into a law in the course of the session in which it
was brought forward. The mode in which they dealt with a
Bill must depend not on any general rule, but on its own me-
rits. It appeared to him that there were no good practical
reasons for striking out so important a branch of the whole sys-
tem of criminal jurisprudence as the Grand Jury—a branch
with which the country was generally perfectly well satisfied.
The Hoe. Gentleman having brought forward his Bill to abo-
lish Grand Juries, he might as well bring in a Bill to abolish
Petty Juries. It would not be very difficult to make out a
plausible case against Petty Juries. He might expatiate on
the system of selection, on the necessity of their being com-
posed of twelve individuals, on the required unanimity, on
their being locked up without food till they agreed in their ver-
dict; and if the lion. Gentleman, having succeeded 'in carry-
ing his measure, abolishing Grand Juries, and he (Sir R.
Peel) his abolishing Petty Juries, probably the only part of
the community which would receive this change with satisfac-
tion was that which was in the habit of preying on the property
of the community.—(Much laughter and cheers.) Having
heard the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, and seeing that no
substitute for Grand Jurie's was proposed by him ; feeling that
unrestrained committal by Magistrates would be a great evil,
and that the necessary effect of this Bill would be to remove
the check at present existing, and leave with every Magistrate
the right of determining those of the Queen's subjects they
would put on their trial in a public Court; seeing that the
country was generally satisfied with the existing system, and
knowing. how difficult it was to engraft on the present system
that other of a public prosecutor, however well it might work
in Scotland; bearing in mind these things, he should give his
decided negative to the Hon. Gentleman's motion for leave to
bring in his Bill. •
Mr. W A KL E Y considered that the Grand Juries were a
species of Star-chamber, which only served to screen Magis-
trates.—( Cries of " No, no.") The manner in which his re-
mark was met only proved bow deeply it was felt by Hon.
Gentlemen opposite. He repeated it that Grand Juries were
a species of star-chamber, by means of which the delinquen-
cies of Magistrates were protected.—(Cries of " No, no. ")
Under the Game laws, he was prepared to affirm that there
were hundreds of committals that would throw disgrace upon
the Magistrates ; but they did not do so because the Grand
Juries conveniently interposed between the Magistrates and
the Petty Juries.—( Cries of " No, no.") He entreated of
the House to give due consideration to the motion of his Hon.
Friend, and in doing so to prove their inclination to pay at-
tention to the wants and wishes of the people.
Lord SANDON, amid loud cries from all sides of the
House to divide, asserted that no committal under the Game
Laws came before the Quarter Sessions. The cases under
the Game Laws were disposed of by summary convictions.
Mr. WAKLE Y explained that committals took place for
alleged crimes growing out of the Gaine Laws.
Mr. PR YM E briefly replied.
The House then divided.
For the Bill
Against it
Majority —l7l
LUNATICS.
Mr. BARNE BY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to re-
peal so much of an Act passed in the 39th and 40th Geo. 111.
as authorises magistrates to commit to gaols or houses of cor-
' rection, persons who are apprehended under circumstances
that denote a derangement of mind and a purpose of commit-
ting a crime. He proposed giving a power to magistrates to
call in a physician, and on his certificate of a person being a
dangerous lunatic, to have the'power of committing him to a
lunatic asylum. If such person was a pauper, he proposed
that he should be supported by the parish; but where there
was property, that then, upon the order of the overseer, suffi-
cient should be taken for his maintenance.
After a few words from the ATTORNEY-GENERAL and Lord
G. SOMERSET, leave was given to bring in the Bill.
HIGH WAYS.
Mr. BARNEBY moved for a Select Committee to inquire
into the operation of an Act passed in the sth and 6th years
of the reign of his late Majesty, relating to highways in Eng-
land. In moving for a Committee, he stated that he was not
prepared with any Bill upon this subject.
After a few words from Mr. Parrott, Mr. S. Lefevre, and
Sir G. Strickland,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he did not think the Hon.
Member for the county of Worcester had made out a case for
the appointment of a Committee. There had not been any
keneral complaint against the present measure, and, in fact,
only one petition had been presented complaining of it.
Lord STANLEY thought his Hon. Friend had stated
sufficient grounds for inquiry before a Committee, and, there--
fore, he hoped the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home
Department would not oppose the motion.
After a short conversation, in which several Members
took part,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL withdrew his opposition, and
the Committee was appointed.
RECOVERY OF TENEMENTS BILL.
Mr. AGLIONBY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
facilitate the recovery ,of possession of tenements after the
due determination of the tenancy. As this Bill was similar
to the Jill which he brought before the House on a former
occasion, it was not necessary for him to trespass upon the
House, or to enter upon any details. He would merely move
for leave to bring in the Bill.
The motion was agreed to.
FEES ON ELECTION COMMITTEES.
Mr. HUME moved for the appointment of a Select Corn-
mittee to inquire into the fees on the trial of controverted

T. COX SAVORY, Goldsmith, &c., 47 00'
' S • r
London, informs the Public that he has fitted up THREE ,er''
ROOMS expressly for the display of a lar.-e assortment of sTtboe
Co rrill-lirl'
SILVER-EDGED PLATED GOODS.b lie offers the!,' ),011,61
low but fixed prices, which have been so successful in drawl,4,/00,
attention to the WATCH, JEWELLERY, SILVER 'nwhlei!'
and FORK and Silver branches of his trade. N.B. A r,a-c-ioo'-„'
containing a Detailed List of the Prices of Plate, plate" deLl '''
Watches, Clocks, &c., may be had gratis, or will be forty 4r -
answer to a post-paid application

. - _ _
____
BIRTHS. a of tjje
lady
On the 22d inst., at Linton Springs, Yorkshire, the f p
Hon. Lieut.-Colonel Douglas, of a son. dof
On the 20th inst., at Breckenborough, Yorkshire, the la
if,
C. Hincks,
On E, o a hter.
the 22ds i q.nst. f, in dauGugildford-street, Russell-square, 1111.
Smith, of a son. Willislll
On the 23d inst., in Avenue-road, Regent's-park, Mrs.
Carbonnell, of a son. fluddle'
On the 23d inst., at Norton, Suffolk, the lady of Peter
ston. Esq., of
eira, at, Pr
At Mad on the 26th ult., the lady of Geo. Stechh—
British Consul, of a daughter.

. On the 21st inst., at SMARRIED
t. George's, Hanover-square, th_e,yiPtlf:'
Richard Cattermole, 13. D., to Ellen Hamilton, eldest ;0' ijp
daughter of the late Wm. Coningharn, Esq., °
°'
Gower-street. Few
At St. Pancras New Church, on the 23d inst., M. n 00'
Esq., 8.A., of Brazenose Collage, and Wimpole-street,
to
daughter of P. H. Abbott, Esq., of Brunswick-terrace. risterl,
On the 22d inst., at Eastwood, S. S. Wig, Esq'' bar of Ps
law, to Ellen, second daughter of Wm. Weld -Wren, Escl" of
woOn the 18th Essex. 11,
inst., at Lewisham Church, Mr. George Secliase teo'
Saham, Norfolk, to Martha, eldest daughter of the late IL
13°'
dieck, Esq. WO' to
On the 25th inst. at St. Mary's, Bryanstone-square,.
r" ,:oery,.t.
vale, son of the late 'Major Chas. James, of the Royal ist oro,
to>l-
Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Chenery, Esq., 13ryan
Portman-square.

DIED. ni w'tt, f"''
At Rome, on the 13th of September last, Henry m-e 1 1
aged 20. C, ol'ae
•
GeOorrigteh
jeo2hlnstsialnest;jaatet
4StuhdLbui ryh-tgrDorvae,ooll!isd.dlese%, Lieut.
George
On the 23d inst., in Queen's-row,g Pentonville, griace.
ti,
Essex,Luc
Oyn,
tehal :!eds2to3fsdoll inst.,o,
k tehdteohnlea:
Res
Suffolk,
ro.. John
Rawson, relict of J. Rawson, EslkqW:
On the 23d •
inst., at Stonyroyd, near el
Halifax, ag°led 85'
31
r 5,
magedth7lslY.'
, of Wail
On the 17th inst., Mr. Frederick William Labern ,
of
street, Fitzroy-square, aged 24. ged 16'jjt001
On the 20th inst., at Camden-place, Lewisham, aof
Croft, the the second daughter of Richard TUMICr, Esc',
of Or Or
in China.
El
On the 21st., inst.., Sarah; wife of Mr. J. E. „f T.
wick-terrace, Islington. sop •'
, .„_,, Lane,
On the 21st inst., at Beech-hill, Surrey, Jou" mot
Sergeant, Esq., formerly of Madras. anvica to S3a
In the month of July, on his passage from J ,
sex, 10
Mr. Samuel Goode, formerly of London, aged, Vas' king, F." 9
On the 17th inst., John Lambert, Esq., °'
his 70th year. colinaa. 5540 f
On the 23d inst., Miss Russ, of Streatham- „,. vidder,
On the 21st inst., aged 78, Jane, relict of 1 ' soll'
Therl4, A
Dover-place, New Ke-road. &roue' and
On the 20th inst., at Brighton, aged 72, .. _n_ill,
Esq., of Reigate, Surrey, and formerly of No
Bond-street.

141"
D~nondon : Printed and Published by_MUBDO 4;9°1134
L 112, Strand, at The Sun Ofnee, No. 112, St,"l
d.
of Middlesex.—Wednesday, November 29,