The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-24 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION.

1831, Mr. Justice Bosanquet said that all assemblies not
held by lawful authority, attended by great numbers of
people, and which were calculated to excite alarm and en-
. danger the public peace, were illegal.—(Hear, bear.)
1 On another occasion, at Devizes, Mr. Justice Coleridge
i said, that an assembly which met together in great num-
bera, exhibiting weapons, using seditious language, or
\
even strong gestures, against those concerned in the pre-
servation of the peace—that this was an unlawful
i aosemblae In " Burn's Justice," it was stated to hive
13:ea 7‘ now settled on high authority, that a meet-
ly of great numbers of people, in such circum-
stances of terror as tended to endanger the public
peace, and raise fears among the subjects of the realms, is
proper') an unlawful assembly, as where a great number of
people are complaining of their common grievances,
counselling what measures should be taken for obtaining
their object ,e for who can tell where such an assemblage
niey end ?" The ciicumstances calculated to create
terror might be different at various times ; meetings,
for instance, at night, with torches, using threats
to life or property, exhibiting weapons, carrying
bludgeons, or fire arms, might cause such meetings to be
unlawful, and punishable by law. He (Lord J. Russell)
stated these circumstances, because it had happened fre-
quently, within the last four or five months, that he had
been asked by Magistrates the particular circumstances
i which made an assembly unlawful ; and he could only
refer them, in a letter now before the House, to the books
of authorities, and to charges delivered by eminent
Judges, and not to any exact definition of his own.
(Hear, hear ) Now there could be no doubt upon
these authorities, that the assemblies which had taken
place in Birmingham, of three, four, or five thousand per-
sons, terry tying individuals from resorting to the usual
thoroughfares, were unlawful. 'rhe Magistrates finding the
civil force in the town insufficient for the purpose of ar
' resting persons concerned in these meetings, unwilling
(and perhaps not justified, in the absence of any
actual riots) to call for the interposition of the mili-
tary, had required the assistance of some of the
metropolitan police, to be sworn in as special constables,
which was authorised by an Act passed a few years ago
He need not tell the House the occurrences which had
since taken place, the riots which had occurred on the
13th, when houses were burnt and plundered by a mob.
But he thought the Committee would agree that, although
the Magistrates might be justified in taking these means
for the preservation of the peace in that town, yet it was
necessary that they should adopt measures fur the organiza-
tion of some species of civil force ; in fact, for a regular
police force for the preservation of the peace of that town,
to be supported, in cases of emergency, by the military
stationed in the neighbourhood. But in the present state
of feeling in that town, diffs‘rencee might cccur if the Cor-
poration were to attempt to enforce the ley., ing of a borough
rate for the purpose of raiii.g this force. He, therefore,
thought it proper, as this was a subject which concerned
the general state of the country, that the country should
so far interfete as to advance the sum requisite for this
purpose, which should afterwards be repaid by the town.
He did not propose this as a vote of Supply, but
as a vote for the foundation of a Bill, which Bill
should contain a provision for the repayment of the
meney by means of a rate to be levied on the inhabitants of
Birmingham ; and as the rate would thus be imposed by
Act of Parliament, it would.be impossible to raise any ques-
ticn as to the authority for the imposition of the rate. He
would not now go further into the question relating to the
transactions at Birmingham, but there was one eircum-
sta Ice which he e i.shed to explain respecting that town,
because the parties concerned bad thougbtproper to publish
a letter which they had addressed to him respecting an in.
quirt', and an imputation had been cast upon him of having
denied the inquiry, and of having censured the parties ap-
plying for it. He was not aware of having used terms im-
plying censure, but he was ready to produce the
letter which he had written on that occasion. Persons
ignorant of the subject might suppose that the letter im-
puted censure to the Magistrates, and that he had refused
to make inquiry. The custom in all such cases was, and it
was a custom not introduced by him, but one which had
been the custom of all former Secretaries of State, to inform
parties complained of, of the nature of the complaint, and to
ask for an answer. The complaint in this instance, had
been made against the officer commanding the cavalry,
at Birmingham in 1837. He neci not remind the House
that at the election iu that year disturbances had frequently
taken place, rendering it necessary for the military to be
called in. The military had in general on these occasions
acted so exceedingly well that he had deemed it advisable
to request his late Majesty to order the Commander-in-
Chief to issue general orders, expressive of approbation of
the conduct of the military on such occasions, and thank-
ing them for such conduct. The troops were commanded
by Sir M. Wallace, and, after an inquiry into the conduct
of the troops, be ( Lord J. R.) felt it his duty to thank him
for the manner in which be discharged his duty ;
of that opinion he informed the memorialists—and
also that he did not think it necessary to throw
censure upon that officer by instituting a formal inquiry.
He had felt it necessary to say so much in order to ex-
plain the letter of which he complained. He would then
move that the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury be
;authorized to advance the sum of 10,0001. out of the Con-
solidated Fund, to be charged upon the rates to be made in
that town.
Mr. HUME thought it necessary that there should be
err efficient police not only in Birmingham, but in every
town and borough—he would therefore net object to the
advance, for of course provision would be made in the Bill _
for its safe repayment—he rose, however, for the purpose
of protesting against the law as laid down by Justices
Bosanquet and Coleridge, as explained by the Noble
' Lord. Unless the Noble Lord was prepared to introduce
a new gagging Bill, he did not see why such monstrous
doctrines should have been alluded to on that occasion-
-it was a monstrous doctrine, and if carried out, would pre-
vent all meetings of the people. He protested against it.
Sir E. WILMOT hoped the Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham would explain to the House how it was that the
Corporation of Birmingham had not power to employ
watchmen as the town officers formerly bad ?
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said that under the old regime
the watchmen were employed under the Street Commis-
sioners' Act. They amounted to no more than six or
eight; appointed under the head constable the portreeve,
who between them had a Burn's Justice and a brace of
pistols. —( Loud laughter.) The new Corporation had not
money to appoint police officers, because it was disputed
by a large party in the town whether the Corporation had a
right to levy a rate or not. He was satisfied that if time
was given, the Corporation would appoint an efficient
police.
Sir EARDLEY WILMOT wished to know how it appeared
that the Street Commissioners had no longer the power to act
when applied to to appoint a police force?
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said they were applied to because the
Corporation had not the necessary funds ; but they refused,
stating their powers had been superseded by the new Corpo-

ration.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not think the course proposed by the
Noble Lord was the best that could be pursued. If the
Corporation had not the power to raise money for the
establishment of a police force, an Act ought to be
passed for that purpose. The less the House and the
Government interfered with the affairs of corporate towas
the better. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth, that the police of a town was more
likely to keep the peace than a strange force. He believed
the sending of the Metropolitan Police to Birmingham had
been the sole cause of all the disturbances which had taken
place. He did cot object to the establishment of a constabu-
lary force in Birmingham, but he did object to the course pur-
sued by the Noble Lord, who had not shown the necessity for
this advance of money.
Mr. WA R BURTON supported the vote on the same ground
as the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
Sir 11. PEEL said, as he understood the Noble Lord, the
repayment was to be made by an assessment on the property in
the town ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—It was proposed that the sum ad-
treeteeci should be repaid by an assessment upon the town of
Birneingharn, leaving altogether out cf consideration the ques-
tion of the Charter.
Sir R. PEEL did not understand whether this was merely a
temporary arrangement Did the Noble Lord propose to esta-
blish the police on a footing analagous to that of the Metro-
politan Police? namely, to appoint a stipendiary Magistrate
;led selar:eci Commissioner, like C• lone] Rowan? Or did the
Noble Lord propose to leave the selection of the police and the
contreel of them to the local Magistracy ?
Lord .1. RUSSELL proposed to leave it entirely to the local
authorities— Hear)—and that it should be regulated like the
police of Liverpool, or any other town.
Sir R. PEEL doubted whether it would not have been a
better arrugement to have taken temporary powers until the
question of the Corporation should be settled.—(Hear, hear.)
However he should, without reference to the details, feel it his
duty to support the proposal of the Noble Lord. What answer
'could they give to those peaceable inhabitants of Birmingham,
weoe property had been destroyed, unless they took effectua!
measures for the security of the public peace? The question was
not Of oppressing the poor, or imposing a tyranny, but providing
protect;e.n for those who had given their allegiance to their So-
vereign, am: who had a right to demand it. Talk cf arbitrary
power and despee,:em ! there was no despotism half so grinding and
oppressing. as that tueder which those persons lived who were
in daily fear of injury to their persons and property, from phy-
sical lures, without the power on the part of the law to protect
them.—(Cheers.) With respect to the police, he thought
the sudden arrival of ete or 60 men; whose persons were to-
tally unknown, had a great tendency to provoke feelings which
would not be excited when disorder was suppressed either by
the military or by the local magistracy. The petitioners knew
that it was the duty of the latter, and would tolerate from them
that which they would not tolerate from other parties. He
trusted that the Noble Lord
prevent the necessity of employing the Metropolitan Police
•practifor these pufrposes; de] he hopedtheywould not encourage the
ce o sending etachments of
The consequence would be that if the Metropolitan Police were
sent on special services they must distinguish themselves, and
would resort to measures of severity t which a local police
greatf spirit the would not resort. If they acted with too
ge-
neral character of the force was injured, acted with
efficiency
too much caution they run the risk of iinpairlinth
ed that
of the police by the risk of defeat. He thereforet e
the Metropolitan P„ lice would 131 reserved for thehdoupties for
which they were intended, and that an effective police
would be established where there was any risk of dander
did not say that the police were the causes of the disturiin lie
which had taken place in Birmingham. Ile knew theyawecrese
attributable to other causes.—(Hear, hear.) It was lamas_
ible that the town could have been kept in the state
of excitement in which it had been for years past,
from inflammatory harangues, political unions, and large
demonstrations of physical force, without exciting that spirit
which those who encouraged it in the first instance now re-
gretted.—( Cheers.) Having excited the parties to this poi' .t
they now deserted them, and those who had encouraged the
excitement were not now the favourites of the people, but were
the objects of execration; while bolder men had stepped
forward, who again had been supplanted by those who went one
step further.—( Cheers. ) He could not help thinking there
were indications of this state of affairs which might have ena-
bled the Government to call the attention of Parliament to
lhe subject at an earlier pr:od, when a more deliberate consi-
der- tion nitght have been given to the measure.—(Hear,
hear. j He regretted that at this period of the Session
they were ezlledupon to consider a measure of suehimmense
Zimpitr.ttuce as ts,P establishment of a rural police. But the
:elm)! sMiparamouni, that no consideration should prevent
)tisenting to such measures as were necessary to main-
, *ty of life and propeety,
d society • which it was the main oh-
y to give, and which if it did pot give, it
of its first functions._.( Cheers. )
D did not regret diet the Government had ab-
• • d a calling for •
measures of eorrcion until they had
n:, ed. to do so fromvote the necessity of the
at the unanimity with which thiscase. He
would pass

w mild show the misguided men who had been guilty of these
outrages that there was a de ermination in the House to res at
those doctrines which had had such a dangerous effect on the
working classes. He concurred in the vote, because he '
agreed to its necessity, and trusted that he saw in it the
commencement of a better system of police in all our large
towns, under the control of proper authorities, than had ever
existed in the old one.
Sir E. WILMOT was glad that the Noble Lord intended to
propose a F tipendiar y Magistrate, and he believed that if the
whole town of Birmingham was canvassed, it would be seen
that that was the unanimous wish of the inhabitants, for which
he would appeal to the Hon. Member for that town. The
peace of the town, and the administration of justice had been
completely neglected. There was hardly one out of four of the
Magistrates who resided in Birmingham, and previous to the
Corporation Act there was not one.
Air. SCHOLEFIELD believed that it was by no means the
unanimous wish of the town to have a stipendiary Magistrate.
Sir R. PEEL explained that he had not proposed the ap-
pointment of a permanent stipendiary Magistrate, but that the
organization of the Birmingham Policeshould be conducted on
the model of the Metropolitan Police.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, as to the proposition of a Commis-
sioner of Police, he did not like to express an opinion at once
decidedly hostile to the proposal ; but he feared that some
jealousy would be entertained against it in the town—( Hear,
hear.) With regard to the appointment of a stipendiary Ma-
gistrate, at the time of the granting of the Charter he had re-
commended the Council to apply for 'the appointment ; but
they had not acceded to his suggestion, which he had recently
renewed. He was persuaded that it would be permanently
beneficial that a stipendiary Magistrate should be appointed
for Birmingham as for Alanchester and Liverpool —( Hear,
hear.) He felt that it was most desirable that all extraor-
dinary measures for maintaining peace should be done away
with, and the usual means resorted to.—(Hear, hear. )
But he wished to say, that although it was usual to ascribe
these riots to the proceedings of persons advocating what they
called the" Charter"—using the most virulent and inflamma-
tory language—that in the course of last summer, and even
previously, there was an anterior agitation set on foot, by per-
sons pretending to have an exclusive regard for the poor, and a
counterfeit benevolence—( Hear, hear)—employing the most
intemperate language—in the northern counties especially—
endeavouring to influence the people against the PoGr-law, and
the laws regulating labour—such persons, for instance, as Mr.
Oastler.—( Hear, hear.) These proceedings had been most
conducive to the disturbances which had occurred, and were
very difficult to meet, because they were not directed to at
once overturning the institutions of the country, the general
division of property, and other insane projects, which natu-
rally excited the almost universal opposition of the country, but
took the appearance of a regard for the condition of the labour-
ing population, and pretended to be aimed solely at their
benefit.—(Hear.) True these topics of the Poor-laws and
the factories, &c. were not now declaimed about by the present
agitators, but there could be no doubt that they had been the
means of creating w'cle and dangerous discontents —( Hear. )
Air. WAKLEY said he had opposed the Speaker's leaving
the Chair at first, upon a matter of form only, conceiving that
the Noble Lard had made out no case for pre-audience, and,
indeed, being of that opinion still, but he had not objected to
the principle of the Bill—oi which he approved—for whether
Birmingham had had riot or not, he considered it essential
that all towns should have a good police.—(Hear, hear.)
There was scarcely a sentiment in the speech of the Right Hon.
Baronet in which he did not concur, though he thought it ex-
traordinary that the Right Hon. Baronet should be so strenu-
ous for Corporations in England, and should be opposed to Mu-
nicipal Police in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The plan
proposed by the Noble Lord in this Bill was unobjec-
tionable and likely to remove all hostility. But if the Noble Lord
had proposed to appoint a Commission under the immediate
control of the Government, he should have offered it his most
persevering and unrelenting opposition ; for nothing, in his
opinion, could be more pernicious to liberty than doing away
with the local institutions of a community.—( Hear, hear. )
He could not help saying that he deemed it very extraordinarythat
Birmingham, which had been se much the scene of declamation
on the general principles of liberty and reform, should have
been for such a long period without an efficient police.__
( Hear, hear.) It taught him to distrust these general profes-
sions, and to believe that of all reforms those were the best
which began at home.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir R. PEEL observed that there were 8,000 police in
Ireland under the Government, and that so far from the Mu-
nicipal Bill giving the Corporations the control of the police,
the Dublin Police were expressly excluded from the Corpora-
tion management. _ ...

Mr. OtONNELL had no objection to give the Corporation
of Birmingham in the first instance the management of the po-
lice, but he was sure a very little experience would convince
them that it would be better for the peace of the town, and their
own ease and quiet, that the police should be under a commission,
such as had succeeded so well in London and Dublin.—( Hear,
hear.) He was sorry that the Right Hon. Baronet should have
given countenance to the cry which had been raised against the
Metropolitan Police, so groundlessly, for the riots had existed
several days before they arrived in the town, and unless the
Magistracy were to call on the military what were they to do?
—( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL disclaimed any intention to reflect on the
police—he only spoke against the system of unnecessarily em-
ployng

iilr.-O'CONNELL explained. He thought under existing
circums .ances what the Right Hon. Baronet had said bore the
appearance of countenancing the cry against the police.

Mr. T. ATTWOOD said there were three or four bodies in
Birmingham capable of organizing a police. There were the
Street Act Commissioners, 108 in number, who might raise
1,000 policemen if necessary, and had funds sufficient to sup-
port them by rates on the inhabitants. There was also the
Court Leet appointing the two constables, by which the peace
of the town had formerly been kept, and who might swear in
any number of specials, to be paid if required. Besides these,
there was the Corporation. What need then of borrowing from
the Treasury ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought it the first step to-
warls the establishment of that system of gendarmerie through
the country, the very idea of which rankled in the hearts
of the people, who had no objection to be governed as
their fathers had been, by constables, elected by the va-
rious parishes.—(Laughter.) Why then seek to establish
a force of police spies, bullies, and murderers?—(Hear.)
He was very sorry that these disturbances had occurred—no
man could regret thorn more—but he trusted that the bad
feeling which unhappily existed in the lower classes towards
the middle and upper ranks would soon subside. However if
the House were to establish a Briareus, with 10,000 arms
stretching amongst the people, he much dreaded what the con-
sequences would be. He would now ask the Noble Lord whe-
ther he meant that the Corporation of Birmingham should be
self-acting or the tool of the Noble Lord, and whether the
police of that town would be under their controul or that of the
Government ?—( Question, question. )
Mr. FIF.LDEN reminded the House he had always
warned them of what would occur. The feeling against the
New Poor-law existed in every parish in England and
Wales. The House had robbed them of their bread
and of the charter they had for one hundred years.
and now they expected them to be quiet. Did they expect
that men, and mothers, and children, would submit to be
starved without making any complaint? The House must first
redress the wrongs of the people, or consequences would ensue
which they must be responsible for, and repent when it would
be too late.

The motion was agreed to.
The House then resumed, and Mr. BERNAL brought up the
Report.
Mr. HUME said, by the speech of the Hon. Member for
Birmingham, it appeal ed the Corporation had made no appli-
cation whatever for money for the police force. It was a vo-
lunteer on the part of the Government.
Sir T. FREMANTLE said no doubt the Corporation would
make no difficulty about accepting the money.—(Laughter.)
The question was how would it be repaid ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said a special rate would be levied on
the town of Birmingham for that purpose.
Sir R. PEEL—The Noble Lord ought to introduce a
clause in the preamble of the Bill, stating that the Corporation
would pledge itself to make good the 10,0001.—( Laughter and
hear, hear.)

Th.,. resolution against proposing the advance of the 10,0001.
out of the Consolidated Fund, to be re-paid out of a rate on the
town, was then agreed to, leave being then given to bring in a
Bill founded on the resolution.

Lord J. RUSSELL brought in the Bill which was read a
first time and ordered to be read a second ti.ne to-morrow.
TRADE WITH WESTERN AFRICA.
Mr. EWART moved for a copy of the correspondence on the
subject of admitting coffee, the produce of free labour from
within the British possessions on the western coast of Africa,
which had taken place between Messrs. Foster, and Smith,
and the Treasury. A considerable quantity of coffee from that
country had been imported into this country by Messrs. Foster
and Smith, but the Cestom-house authorities and the Trea-
sury refused to admit it unless it paid the usual duty paid by
foreign coffee. His object was not now to censure the Trea-
sury for that refusal, but by moving for those papers to turn
the attention of the public to the extension of our trade with
Western Africa as the best means of mitigating and finally put-
ting an end to the horrid slave trade. That feeling had already
lvgan, as was illustrated by one fact amongst several--namely,
the importation of palm oil from that conntcy to Liverpool
had increased from 90,000 to 2'20,000 tuns. He was
happy to state also, that the native chiefs were now beginning
to admit that it would be more for their interest to cultivate
the produce of the land than to export their wretched fellow-
countrymen. The great importance of our trade with Western
Africa was that it was carried on by barter.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON had no objection to the
production of the papers. The only question was whether, when
produced, they would be found worth printing.—( Laughter.)
The Treasury could not have acted otherwise than they had to-
wards Messrs Foster and Smith without violating the lasy. Ile
concurred in all that had been said by his Hon. Friend on the
importance of extending the West African trade, and he had
the happiness to state that he had done a good deal to increase
it, by diminishing as many of the duties on that produce as he
could. But they could not reduce the duty on coffee without
also reducing that on foreign coffee. He certainly had gone to
the fullest extent he could in endeavouring to introduce the pro-
ducts of Africa at a cheap rate ; but it should be borne in
mind that they could not make the reduction with regard to
Africa without extending it generally to other foreign countries.
He would observe further that there was a great portion of
coffee introduced nominally from Africa, but really from other
places. He would, in conclusion, say that the House should
be very caut'ous in the steps it intended to pursue on the subject.
Alderman THOMPSON was glad to hear his Right Hon.
Friend state his intention of protecting their African produce,
and hoped he would persevere in that course. He hoped also
that her Majesty's Government would take measures to pro-
tect the British merchants trading on that coast, for there had
recently been several outrages committed by the French upon
British commerce, for which no redress could be obtained.
After a few wards in reply from Mr. EWART, the motion
was agreed to

RAILWAYS (IRELAND),
Mr. F. FRENCH moved an address to her Majesty,
" praying that she will be graciously pleased to direct such
measures to be taken as will secure to the different provinces
in Ireland the advantages of railway communication." The
subject which he was about to bring under the notice of the
House was one of very great importance, and in which all par-
ties were interested. Ireland was a country which had been much

traduced, partly from ignorance, and in many cases intentionally,
but all she asked from the Parliament
mmenetaonfs
of remunerationjusticeEnglamltvasand
Let them but give her people the
employment, and there was little fear of the ultimate prosperity
of the country. The Hon. Member then took a review of the
formation of Railways in England, and the enormous expense
that had been incurred in their formation, but the low and
hurried manner in which he spoke prevented our catching his
observations distinctly. The estimate for the London
and Birmingham Railway was only half what it had cost in
the formation. The estimate for the Grand Junction was
1,200,000/, and it had cost 2,400000/. The Great Western
had exceeded the estimate by 70 per cent., and the Southamp-
ton was estimated at 90,000/, and had cost 260,000/. Much of
that had resulted from leaving these undertakings to private
enterprise instead of having them taken up by the Government.
An HON. MEMBER here moved that the House be counted.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but there being
forty Members present,
Mr. FRENCH restmed—Both Houses had recorded a
solemn pledge to advance the interests of Ireland, and ho
could they reject the first measure proposed for that purpose ?
He could not sit down without assuring the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland that the people of that country would
long remembcr his efforts, 4nd should he bring the work
• to a successful termination there was nothing in his political
1 career to which he could look back with greater satisfaction,