The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-05 00:00:00

waited several days for an opportunity to present it, and
those who signed that petition were as fully capable of
understanding the resolution proposed by the Noble
Lord as he was himself.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
think the present was the proper time to go into so im-
portant a discussion in so thin a House, and he thought
it would have been only fair, if the Noble Lord meant
to go into this discussion, to have given notice of
it. Notwithstanding the statements of the Noble Lord
he must say, that if any parties had brought forward
measures to defeat general education it could
not be laid at the door of the members if the Church
of England. He agreed with the Noble Lord in de-
ploring the evils that prevailed from defective education,
but when the Noble Lord said that it was owing to the
people not having had an opportunity of instruction, he
must beg leave to tell him that that was a fact that
that ought to be proved. For his own part he believed
it would be found either to arise from their parents or
from the aversion on the part of children to receive
education. He considered that the plan that had been
laid down by the Government was calculated to create
a laxity in religious truth.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME, though he regretted that the Noble
Lord had been obliged to give up his measure, felt
bound to admit that considering the manner in which
it had been met in the country he was not at all sur-
prised at it.---(Hear, hear.) The Church of England
had set themselves up against it for the purpose of
designedly keeping the country in ignorance. When
the Lancasterian system was first proposed every at-
tempt was made to put it down, and that course
seemed to be pursued in the present instance. He con-
sidered it to be the duty of a Government whets they had
an Established Church neglecting its duty to interfere.
Ho regretted that the discussion had not come on
because he felt satisfied if it had that many of the ab-
surdities that had been promulgated would have been
cleared up.—(Cheers.) He trusted that the people
would demand loudly for justice until it was ac-
ceded to.

Lord MORPETII did not think that the proceed-

ing adopted by his Noble Friend at all called for the
rebuke of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. It was
the duty of his Noble Friend to take the first oppor-
tunity of rebuking the offensive and mendacious rnisre-
iwsentations—(preat cheering)—which had been made
with respect to this plan and the project of the Privy
Council. No person could take up a paper in which
those misrepresentations were not to be found. His Noble
Friend, in the course that he had adopted, had not
forestalled any debate upon the subject, because he had
only stated that it ryas not his intention to prematurely
bring the subject forward, when he found that be was
likely to meet with so much opposition. He (Lord
Morpeth) trusted, however, that the people would force
any Government that presided over them to adopt an
efficient plan for their education. His Noble Friend
would, on the night of which he had given notice, ask
for the sum of 30,000/. to be distributed between the

two Societies to which he had adverted.—(Hear.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said it was the first time
he had ever heard a Minister of the Crown presume to
say that the petitions of the people were offensive and
mendacious.—(Great cheering and cries of " No, no.")
He was at a loss to know to whom these expressions
applied, unless to those who had petitioned against
the measure. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had
stated that this was a Church and party question—
that it was brought forward for party purposes. If
such was the case, he would ask by whom were the
greater number of petitions presented? Why, by
Honourable Members on the other side of
the House.—(Cheers.) The Wesleyan Methodists
and the respectable part of the country had with one
voice deprecated the measure proposed by her
Majesty's Ministers. He had taken it for granted,
that the Noble Lord when he said he would second
the call of the House, would have done so in a re-
gular and proper manner, but he would leave it to
the House so say whether the course he had pur•
sued, was consistent with the usual practice of that
House.

Lord MORPETH said, that the expressions be
had used, did not refer at all to petitions. He did
not even mention them, or have them in his mind.
Lord HOWICK denied that his Noble Friend had
brought forward the present motion in an improper man-
ner. For his own part, he could conceive nothing less
improper nor less unfair for his friend, at the time he
was seconding a motion for a call of the House, to state
that he did not intend to call upon the House to come
to a vote on the plan that was now upon the table.
What advantage had his Friend obtained by the course
he had adopted ? He had simply explained what his own
views were ; and if he had given any advantage to any
one, it was to his opponents, because, when he brought
the measure forward, they would be enabled to answer
any of the statements he had made.

Mr. LITTON regretted the course that had been
taken by the Noble Lord, because be thought, upon a
question in which the country felt so deep an interest,
they had a right to have a deliberate discussion. It was
alleged by the Noble Lord that the intentions of Go.
vernment had been the subject of mistake and misre-
prqsentation ; now, if that was the case, why, he
would ask, bad he shrunk from public discussion
It was a plan which he and five•sixths of the people
of this country believed would altogether destroy re-
ligion. He made the assertion ; the Noble Lord denied

it: He challenged him to come forward with the dis-
cussion upon the subject, and set the matter fairly be-
fore the public. Of all the bad measures of the present
Government, the present was the worst. Secular in-
juries might be repaired, but that plan struck at the
religion and morals of the country, and would prove the
certain destruction of civil and religious liberty in the
country.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman proved that there was very great ignorance
prevailing in this country. Was be aware that in every
other country in Europe, all classes of religionists were
educated together. Had he looked at Mr. Nichols'
Report on Education in Holland, where the Calvinist,
the Lutheran, and the Roman Catholic were
educated together ? That gentleman found the Lu-
theran master teaching the Catholic catechism,
and he was assured the Catholic would as
faithfully teach the Lutheran catechism—that was
the Christian principle, which was worthy of imitation.
The Right Hon. Member for Cambridge University
said the Church was willing to educate the people, but
he took good care not to say the whole people, but only
those who would come between the Caudine forks of the
Established Church. The 30,0001. was not be granted
out of the pockets of Churchmen more than out of that
of the Dissenters of every denomination—were the
Dissenters not then entitled to participate in
the benefit of • the money ?—( Hear, hear, hear.)
The Catholics were the most numerous of any class or
sect in Ireland, and every one opposite well knew
that that sect was not diminishing.—(Hear, hear.) The
Catholics turned round upon the Churchmen, and said
" Shame upon them, they were afraid of education—they
wished to keep them in ignorance for the purpose of con-
verting them to their faith." He was sorry that the Noble
Lord had so far modified their plan as to confine the grant
to those Societies, for practically that was to exclude
the Catholics, as they allowed only the authorized
Scriptures to be read. They might apply Church
money as they pleased, but national money ought to be
applied for national purposes.
Col. SI BTHORP said, politically the Noble Lord
shuffled out of every possible measure, but those tricks
would not do long—they would soon be found out by
the country.
Mr. SLANEY supported the Government, when
he was interrupted by
Gen. JOHNSON, who rose to order. There was
other business to come before the House. The ques-
tion before the House was, whether there should be
a Call of the House on the 14th of June, and they
had got into the general subject of education.
The SPEAKER said many of the previous speakers
had travelled wide of the question.
Mr. SLANEY would reserve himself for another
opportunity, which he understood would soon be
afforded him.

Mr. .GODSON requested that Honourable Mem-
bers would reserve themselves until that occasion.
Mr. WYSE would only protest against the with-
drawal of the Government plan. He objected that
public money should be given to any sect or society—it
ought to be applied to national purposes. He rejoiced
to find that the Church was now roused from its slumber.
If the people of England were instructed as they ought
to be, would such things have occurred as had taken
place a short time ago in the county of Kent ?
(Cheers.) That was the result of the high Tory
Church slumbering so long.—(Cheers.)
An HON. MEMBER, on the Opposition side of the
House, trusted that when the Noble Lord again men-
tioned the measure, he would be prepared to state what
he intended to do, because there had never yet been
any explanation given.
Lord ASHLEY thought it was quite unnecessary
for the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, to have
made the remarks in which he had indulged, and trusted
he would be prepared to explain what he meant when
he applied the terms " offensive" and " mendacious "
Lord MORPETH had no hesitation in saying-,
that he applied it to three-fourths of what had ap-
peared in the papers on this subject.—( Hear, hear,)
Mr. F. FRENCH asked if the Noble Lord meant
to persevere in his call under the circumstances?
Lord ASHLEY replied that he did. Most of hi;
Hon. Friends had left the House under the impression
that the call of the House, seconded as it had been by
the Noble Lord, would not be opposed.—( Hear.)
Dr. LUSHINGTON said ❑othing should induce
him to vote against the motion of the Noble Lord, for
he thought it was understood that the call should take
place.
Mr. SIIIEL submitted that the call was not now
necessary.
Lord ASHLEY said Ile did not at present know
whether the call might not be as necessary with the new
plan as with that which had been abandoned.--(H„,)
If when the nature of the new proposal was known, it
should not be found so important, he would move that
the call be rescinded.—( Hear, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to.