The Sun.
London, England, 1808-04-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P2IRLLIMENT.

HOUSE OF PEERS:
TUESDAY, APRIL
Mr. Clarke was again heard fur the Appellant's in
the Rbxbari.,:t Appeal—w be farihel heard to=wor-
..row. •

'he Reversionary Grant? • B:11, and some .other,_''
Public and Private Bills were brought tip front are
Commons.
On the first reading of the Reversionary Grant
Bill,
Lord MOtitb. repeated, uearj the sartie.objeCtions
which he had urgedagainst the inost-Aire when it had
formerly been before the H
that had now been made in it were. far frotn re-
moving his objeCtions. Tire Bill still trenched) in
his opinionk, on the 'Salutary Prerogative -of the
r 041,1.. Whatever inigjit he its.late, it W. 13 still-his
arl'ine, was anxious 'to repeat it, that the.dif
ferences between the two Houses of Pirliament
;the merits of this 'question should be amicably dis-
cussed and adjusted through the 'naeditun of a con-
, . •
ferenee between the two Houses.
After some further conversation on the question,
the second reading of the Bill was fixed tor the gth .
of May.,
On the motion that the Indictment Bill be re;ttl a
second time,
Lord STA LOWE rose, and expressed his surprise
that no Noble Lord had taken notice of this Bill,
which ,had hezn for some time laefore their Loyd-
ships, and which, in hitsniind, very Materially.,al- .
feted the liberties of the subjetl. As far as de-
pended ou him, the Bill should not pass that Hong.
without the attention of their. Lordships being
to its provisions; and with'4hat view he should
move,"tita the-" Bill be read a second time on the
6th Of May, , and that their Lordships be stunniou-
ed to attend.O. that day.
. ,
LOril HOLLAND coincided in opinion with. his
Noble Friend as to the importance of the meat Ore;
a:A wit!: doermined to bring beibre their Lordships
some considerations of its tendency, which might
induce them.not to,let such a Bill pass without dye•
examination.
It wits then ordered, that the House be summon-
i ed on the itith May, ,to attend the second reading
t. of the Bitl.

cATIRMC,PETITION. '
1-Fis Royal Highness the DUKa of CUMBERLAND
rose, and Said beheld in hie hand a Petition from the
Lord Mayor, Aldermen, &c. of the City of Dublin,
in COnl'euon Connell assembled, a*gain,t'the Petition
'preseoted yesterday, cm behalf of the Roman Catho
licsof Wand; which he moved might be now road ;
411014;irkkii‘l aawairttiy, • .
His itoyal Highness moved that the Petition be
laid on the table.

Lord.-Auct tq D expressed his ,regret that-he had
not been present yesterday when the Petition from
the Catholics of Ireland had been presented... Had
he been present, be should have deprecated the re,
newal of a discussion of claiMs' respecting which
'Parliament had so recently manifested a decision
!which left little encouragement for preferring them
-anew. The Matter, in his opinion, was then decided
upon by the preyious question. •
Lord HOLLAND differed .witlf his Noble Friend,
and contended that the question agitated in 1.805
:was, that the Petition- be referred to the considera-
.-tiori of a Committee.

After some observations from the LORD CHOT-
,CELLOR, the Motion that the Petition be laid on the
table was agreed to.
The Order 4.)1. the Day being read,:,the Bill 'for the
better regulation' of the COntrii ofiustiee in Scot-
went into a Committee, ivheri: several amend-
ments were made in the Bill., atter'whieli it.
ordered thaeTthe Report be received 0-tilorrow.—
Adjouttied. •

HOUSE OF COM4VONS:
TUESDAY, Arline, t 2.

i" ~::'

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Mr. Alderman Stuw presented a Peiition from the
Debtors in the Fleet Prison, praying relitd.--Oideied
to lie on the iahle.

Colonel STANIAT gave notice • that he .should-to-
morrow move for leave to bring in a .Bill for alter-
ing the Law as to Settlements, and fur other pur-
poses, .. •
Un the motion of Mi.VANSITTART, there 'were 0r...
dered -to be laid betore the,House Lists of the several
Ports for Warebooseing; Accontits of the Quanti-
tic*of Goods Exported and lenported- at each parti-
cular Pert can Account of Alto-Quantity or Goody
remaining at :each Port ; an Account of the Num-
Isor of-- Vessels and 'of the Totstiage of the same,
winch had arrived at these several Ports from all
quarters'Of the globe, all for the-last five_ years, sod
in each cute distinguishing the reapeiitive Ports, with
the-Places and Pens: from which.-the Vessels re-
t:pef.tively 'come.
On the motion of the satne'llon. Gentleman, the
last- Accounts of -a- similar nature -were ordered -to
be ,re-printed.
Mr. B11)1)61341 gave no coI- that he should to-
morrow submit to the. House certain propositions-on
the'snjed. of Finance: It was his -intention to
move- that they do lie of atte table -till -after the
- .•'
. ,
IRISH RtAiit4 CATHOLIC PETITION.'

tr.-GttAtTAN said, he held in his hatid a 'Petition
'from the:AtiMan Catholics iQ Ireland,. which he
sho-nld rtoir move to have read, and that it do lie Ott
the table. On the 16th of. I\etay, it was his inten-
, to bring forward a motion conneeted with it.
He' tiatm.d that day, in expeelation that while it
would aiTord the noise sotlior.mt time to COnhider of
the' Petition, it would nor be fottnd inconvenient
then to enter • lino the diseiaSion of the important
cljastion 'A.list;lt it itWolved, skould only At pre-

Sent 'sty, that the Petition ores signed by g great -
many persons of the utmost respeelebility. Thee
were also' names attached to It, zoritt tile proper
signatures of the partiei 6th who had
rizerl their names to tie used. He prtAetiteil 010
Petition, hoWever, onlyas the ,Pe.titien of tlise Who •
had adasally subsceibed it. •
Mr. PEECEVAL ;liked if it appeered.on tho faee of
the Petition what proportton c.he. persons whose
Petition it bore to be, fled aelually signed it.
Mr. GesrrArs said the Propertiondid riot elta6tl,
appear, bat it was certain chat the nurnuer ofper
sons who'had at:tie:llly subscribed" the Petition wtntt
vei* great, imiotititi:ets to many thousands:
-The SPEAKER said it might be cuovenient for the,
House to know, as it was kai•l that tiersons trio
signed the Petition in th, earnei of oth*s, by the
authority Of those persons, ‘whether there ;yes any
evidence of such order.
Mr. (.7. reellreN EAll it. :Itsite.tu7,l f!!!‘);:n p.:.,-Aion of
the s;gnatnree 00 4.6.1-'llojr-01,-,,.. tr'a or
names were interniieted in Vt.trio.t3 e. 7.1 te)r-They•-.7 •
been received, all. in brie handwriting, awl, et 4 hth was
informed, copied from origited and gentlinesigt tureS •
of tAt parties thenselves-,, adhibited eitni!.cr Peti.;
tions in their respective CdanliCA or thelriets.
of these, he believed, were ii, the hand-writiog of.
Lord Fingal.' He had stated the firt, 4;o3tNe lie did
not wish to suhjeashimself to rieeimpatea Ut hav—
e-et
ing presented a Petition not bearing the aelual
tures of the panics to it; tit the same time, he
thought it. more advisable to present the Petition as
it a4ually steed-, than to setel it back.
Mr. PART:ELL said there was not s doubt that the
k'etizion, beiides the names of some hundreds of the
tir4t. Nehlenteri and Gentlemen of:the Catholic per.
suasion in 'Rated, signed. with their own hands.,
contained also the genuine 'Signatures. of .several
thousands besides. Supposing, therefore, that all
tha.othcr names should be thrown out of the ac-
coant, those names which dida6.tually -exist in the
. .
genuine hand.writieg of the proper parties, would
be quint` 'stitlicient to induce'the Houseto.receivo
the Petition, And to entertain it.
Mr.' PERdEVAL had no other objeel in view bat
that matters should be eolith:teed ,without infrings •
ing on the privileges of the. House. -fhe rnals of
names could only have', been added to. the PetitiOn
tor the ptirpose 61 giVing additional weight to
ft wati'brit proper, :therefor', that the proportion of
these signatures should be known, that it might not
derive consequence from this iMproper proceeding:
If this were to be countenanced, the House mig!tt
have a .Iletition thrust, on` them with an iMMett',i
rintnber. of signatures, all in, 'tice hatide.vritiog tit a..
single indicidual.. If the eresent: should be deebred;,
by tthe Speaker to be` a question of mere doubt, it.:
was his wish that -the Petition." should be receited,'
bar if, ore the' oortrary, ar,itnitted
becont miry' to -1 he til,ageril that
titions so situated to bepretiented; conceiving it,
he did, to be of a dangerous teridency,• he must op.
pose it.
TEICSPEAKER raid it down that it was contrary to'
the usages of the HOuse to receive such Petitien.i. •
'Che way to remedy the evil was, Tor the'Hunoura-
hie Member to detach from the Petition the names
so improperly ddded tort. if it should happen that
thesignaturcs-which were genhine, and those which
were not, wire ssci interinixed as hardly. to Move of.'
being separated, then h' Might become a questiott •
whether the Unauthentic 'sign'atures • might not he,
erased, however,.., Was dangerous mode'ole
proceeding. It subjed&l .the Member resorting tb
it to grearpersonaltres'ponSibiiitt, and: was a 111CaStlfe'
to be depreeateeko far as P6titioners to •tliat.Hottie
were themselvesitherested. • '
Mr. Traut4e.i, With' all 'submission to the Chair,
tiuseght it would be 'dangerous to. hold the dotarinti'''.
Whiele had 'ne'd been is -one. on no' ac4i
count, and in no eircurnitineoS, to be dcNi;fted
It ''49 out °No of the signatureoo' a Petition vvre
genuine;'.'nittSt' the Petition' be rej&:;ted as' ti tlie
49 persons, because the 50th had employed anotl;
pets:in tr-Sign his name forlifinst?' •
Mr;' Ll' FlTZGeneen, Nce,Vr„ yr.
GEATtAN, 3ifd Mr. Wf!.\,l.i „ iitforc,!'
priety of receiving the 1'..!!11:',1. tt
Petition only of these 11'; ‘;'; '1
; '6 6 .I,', 'l4Olll
it with their oWn 'haods.
only en'the 'Kea the 'nt4l.?;c•;T' • s
Petition had experiLneed
minds ef the' Ntitiet!, , !.
be able to. under,e,lnd ,
rejeacd. They- -cclso snit. !;trees
alder, what tnightbe the
Petition to be signed
having their minds agitaied and cei,•, ,ed sot n~
a
posed disregard of t
Sir R Pe..ce, Mr. WieeciceLecco:,' Mr. Pcuer.v...ti;'`
end Mr.. ri,";eNiltsto, on the other hand, COitiCawci,
thtit the ditftehlty here arisitig'‘;v:ts
on' that side 0.t.,th6 but was ocLtste:,iteil
ley the TaitiOhois thett.t.wl!,.t.t4 ha% inn,' ntlyel in
li9Fi latter Ge of hee' °stirt: 1 1"13,1: lI 1 't;•
two
GOlniernan Gratea9 ici ‘l,,ithcb.;iw the
and 65. a ' if he' 'could net by to-Mid:row pres,:oct; it' •
with a. fek signatures, diminished iu bolk,
but not in conseqUence.
Mr. yORKV: thOight the, Petition otighthe i•ceeivt. d,
a special entry being made to the cif :t of reserviee,
the privileges of the House.
Mr. UtteTTAN declared it to he. his vvisli to ins
crease, not to iriar moon waeiso.
IlepeS9ry to exist IX:tweep tile two ClOtintriei. lie
should therefere take on himself thereseonsibilits
voitOrko.yiilg the Petition,,itither than cast go the.;
-Houw the odium of rejeaing it. pies lit it bee
fore tfre recesi was now impossible. He conki not
false upon himself te say what nemes.ought to be
withdrawn.e
.kle should present the Petition en C";e.
16111 of May,.and should then f. Y. A d:iy: for constde:;.,
ingit.
,Attica few words farther from ;lir. WHITIMR4D,

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i

who erArced the propriety of what had beem'sug-
,„crested b3•.Mr.Yoaxs, and from Mr. W. SMITH and
Mr. thihaßßT on Ihe same_ side, and from Lord
CASTLEREM;II on the other, the Motion, thit the
Petition be now broUght up, was allowed to be
'withdrawn.

Mr. HOWARD gave notice that on this day he
would move that the Affairs of the. East Indi% Com-
pany should be referyed to a Committee (we believe
s Committee of the whole House).
Mr. DAVIES GIDDY moved that the Grampound
Eleetion Ballot should be postponed from Thursday
'next to Tuesday the ipth of May.. it being found,
Lowever, that one of the parties dissented from this
arrangement, the motion was withdrawn.
Ti*:. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave no-
tice,that he would move to-morrow, or the day
after, that this House should adjourn either from to-
morrow or 'Thursday till the Tuesday se'unight fol-
lowing.

DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.
Lord- CASTLEREAGH, said, he had not long
Since had occasion to call the attention of the House
to the general consideration of our military establish-
ment ; but at the same time the House would allow
with reason, that the first consideration was due to-
our regular army, rather than to those descriptions
of fared which were secondary and collateral to it.
It was the duty of Government, .however, to attend
to all parts of Military System, and to provide,
effeileally for the maintenance and discipline not on-
ly advise descriptions of force that always had arms
in their. hands, but also of these that wore armed
only provisionally for the purpose of training; and
discipline, With a view to eventual emergency. Hav-
in
propo's'ed that first which.was .of most import'-
ance, ,he was happy to coegrattilate the House, that.
by tile success which feel ettend,xl the _neeisures it
had. been his go;;,'; i'ortuoe to propose to' the House
14'1 Y"r;
. tebislativc care was neces-saryfoethe es-
..
saiallninent of a Regular Army, The zeal with which
the ;Mt passed on his suggestion, had been carried into
effeEt, havieg added 40,000 men to our regular este-
blishment, that important 'branch .of our Military
System may be safely left to the rotation of the
ordinary recruiting. The Regular Army and Militia
being ire this perfeEt .sate, we may now proceed to
the arrangement of those parts of our establish-
ment; which were neither less important, nor less dif-
- eel:. to be. properly tttulated. Having taken the
measures last ;year; which operated so beeelicial)y,
for; the itegullr Army, he, thought the Country
might rest with safety upon those, ineesures, till
more: precise information. as to the number and dis-
cipline pt the Volunteers under arms should furnish
.to the Legislature more authentic materials, than
could then be hail, there being no immediate come
• talunication between Government and the Volunteer
Corps as there was. now, by means of Oa lxispett-
log Field Officers. .By Mean* of these fiteers, the
Most accurate information was now obtained on
.these important points, and though -the arrange.
meat of so important a matter was full ef ridicule
ties, which were enhanced .by the labours bestowed
on it by his predecessors, and particularly by
the able individual who had gone.. before him, he
and his Colleagues would be wanting to their duty if
they did not turn their attention to it asearly as they
. could, and if they did not bring forward, as they now.
did; ttuough him, a plan of suusidiary defenee. In
looking to the amount and description .ef,por,Arcay
in general, he had already congratulated the House
that there was no, longer any eaten. for ateeiety.. In
point of number and discipline our Army was beyan4
any thing this Popetry ever enjoyed.. To the Volun-
teers he was happy to pay that sharp in t hi4geeeral tree
' bete, to which the testimony of, the liispecting Field,
Odipttrs proel.l them justly entitled. No forceolvas
Ovftebetter qualihed.for theSwtuAliato dtifenry of the
Gountry, none better entitled to its contideu cc, and as,
long 0 therfelt inclined, and convenience permitted.
them to do. duty the tninner they ,now, did, it
NIV:q he.could imagine ,a force to 'which
he would bu more disposed to trim the •fate and
fortune..of the British Empire. He should, how-
evab ~be, wanting_ in his duty, if-he did look
toryard for; the,.tiine When occaions ohly arise
in which the services of so large a proportion.
bf the community as Volunteer:,„ would . appear
Ipngar called ler by any pressing„etnergeney,
This Was the crisis which he felt it his duty tg:
previde foi, and no time could btk, so preikrly
selp4ed to make that provision as the present
moment, when. the Volunteer Corps were so high
in atop*, zeal,, :eel discipline, wheit defalca
tion appeared to be at a 'great distanca,.. and when
theiremetly that may be provided for its (1'9104
existence mey be, .Matured and perfeaed be,fote
it would be wanted, 'and iitay come inteeeperatiott
so gradually and imperceptibly as to create none or
those agitations that were unavoidable wren great
deficiences were to be supplied by snilden ese-.
cilium. If 'the Near'jr. should continue vary loag,
,or if a Peace should 'be made,. the Volunteers
may in either ease return to tlioite doineitic
habits from which the ittuninent danger of the
Country, a call. always imperative ou Britons, had
drawn them fOrth., This event, wheiieier it might
take place, it -Wlthp ditty of. Covitilltat.,tti see
that the Country ' 'as prepared for. fleece arose
the necessity Otpropo4ing a plan tlitai would be
equally operative in peice. and in war; :and iheeffeti
of which woUld'he, that the country:wintir pept no
moruent unpvepared,, It', was better' that 1110 titten•
lien of Parliament should be call.:(1 to thi.i.,34biee;t in
time of war than its pe.ac, fur nothing wore in-
CCl,istent with peace, nothing more to disturb
its triniquilitty, or tp..norten ils"Uurition, than to
agititi, inquiries, and to lje.
Mentsconnected with war. H. ,t:ppost:d j;9- argu,
wasrraPnt nect,s,ary to conviuce (.7;tlitlernen of the.
propriety of makit.g, every pos,ible exertion, .to put
ou). military ilt.;tablislintent in the Most respectable,.
poitnie. It etas only necessary' to look at the
state of Europe, to see thatby no other means would.;
. be inabled to treat for Peace on equal grounds,
caries 'exCept we made 'Peace on equal gronada
ft, would be no Peace. 'lt was neer:is:oy tOr
o- put forth and array' our' strength in 'rich a-
miner, as not only to render our Coasts inVtiliterj:,
able in War, but also to !thew, the Enemy that
bs had• no chance of accomelislliog .1-11S-i;bieo in
Peace, and to teach him wto ake:1.10144 Minn to
live in the world with one Power, which. he could
not hope either to emitter or to. intimidate. Iu
• this view, however high an
,opinion he had of the
Votunteert,:he conceived it wetild be tin ‘itlie 'to aVe
hhe permanent defence. of the Country dependent t

r

on , the feelings or indiodo,t4; and he eonceived it' I
right to propose, a system invariable in its operation,
which would prevent the public security from being
ever compromised: Having stated this petline of the 1
considerations which led to the adoptiort of the plan.l
he was about to propose, he would now proteed to I
explain the ideas of his Majesty's Ministers with re-
speet to the existing eystem of subsidiary defence,
and the alterations they proposed to introduce upon
it. An Aet was passed some time since, for the gene-
eat training of the people. He had, in the last Ses-
sion, brought in a Bill for completing' the returns
tinder that and regulating the mode in Which the
ballot should be; applied to them. The ballot, how-
ever, could be applied only to a small proportion of the
returns', and even then there was not sufficient com-
pulsion to tender it effeaual. It was necessary testate
to the House, without reserve, the view hilt Majesty's
Ministers had of that Training Ael. The intention-
. of it-was to enable Ministers to advise his Majesty
to train 200,600 men out of the' whole populetion.
The parish officers werelo do the duty of military
officers and drill serjernits aowards those naert But
neither was the-training adequate; !stir would the
men be of any use when so trained. The time of
the year when the men Were brought 'together uns
cler that Acct, and the piece 'where they, were-to be
assembled, were equally improper; and they were
turned out of tlk' hands or their trainers unfit for any
h service, and without any obligation to any except in'
the eveneof invasion; There were some whovcitt- ;
sidered tiaieing of value, without ernbodylog, HN i
! wag of a different 'Opinion. He considered it •
use to have, men trained: Unless they were re-
giniented. The regiments of Regulars, ,Volunteers,
or Militia, into which they should be put after such
imperfect training, would have little benefit from
them. If trained in regiments they would be of real
utility. The training of the whole .nember of
800,000, which number the,Bill proposed succee-
, sieely to train, would have been a very general hard-;.
ship without any benefit, or an imperfect and Con-
tingent One except in Case' of incorporation. The
• VolOnteer training was such as to leave the man in. a
state ofperfeet discipline, fit for service, without any
(Luther instreetion; whenever, the exigency should
arise. But waile the general training in this view,
was more vexatious 'than beneficial, there was ano-
ther view in which it was serviceable. The men
might be traineday'so es to be qualified to fill the
ratiks 'of the MilillaTand Regular Army, and,.ifit
should be necessary to .make use of them, they,
would be ready. Instead ot traitting the whole mi-
litary classes, a sufficient' number might be trained
to ,erever' any Probable exigency that might he ear
peeled to arise:- The 'Regular. Army at home at
preSent amourited,- -With 'the Militia, to V. 00,006
men,' exclusive of artillery.,- The Regular Army; if.
raised to one hpndred.men to each company, which
was no more than the'. ()Ellett- ,cdrntrianding could
easily Manage, 'might admit 50,000 additional men.
It would be a great advantage that this nuniber
of men should btileady trained, without any oc-
casion to ballot for them. "They. should be \ re-
garded as an Army of Reserve, to. be made use of
only in cases .9f•great emergency. There would
be. no occasion to have recourse to the Parish
Officers ; the men would be always ready, when a
local, 'efilitta should afford such fecilitiee of general
training, and the wen so pained would belt.b Pc-
quisition, to the regime=nts they may join. It
would be sufficient training to drill the men Canto-
eight days neer , their borne!, according to the
system of the Militia in fen.e.of Peace, and, to have
them embodied e t days in their own counties.
Measure of ;his. kind would ,heve such an elle& on
the recruiting of the; Regular Army, that the most
ample, relianee may be
.placed on itg 0418 i • atiy
y
cireurnOces. rit Was not necessary to have recourse
' to it inimedietely, but. it may be regarded. as a sure,
resource iu reserve. NOw .with reaped, to the Vo-
.ltotteeras s.; he. Was, prepared..to state as: his 'owe,
ppipicm, as
,well as, that of his Majesty's Miteisterie
that, long es
,the: Volonteera ceqld, with , cane
v:enience give their services to the Country, with
that -degree pf • titilitArt ,eflieisancy.,. which they
at pNs4Ew.l)9sstlsfeils :(24PvArlItYlilat would ;not:,
sire any snore etfeetual force. Bat, it was essential
to fix;, anti prganiee a permanent force, which would
always stsksist to the some env:aunt. . Looking to the-
Itegulereatel,Militiees the first linee and the Voluit--
teal! ,as else seceiht, lieee„it was necessary to have a
regimetteele force as :a third mid, the point
no* to be considered was, what. amount pc, toree
this kind it was • necessary to have, in order
to fill up the cleticiencesthat May arise in the Volune.:
tier establighttAite 'lArith'respeftto thqroportion
:of this regimental training, some thought it ought to
go w panPh.larger extent-then, was eveloprOteaagd:
before.,e .Butevehen ,the nature and ameunteof „the
existing Regular Force was examined comperatively,
vrithetheiteainiog tq be instituted title.a view 'tole;
thsee 'erns:reason
.to corieltule that the:atrionnt,
p.ropOeed,,,by,, hie Right Hon, • Frihed (Mr. Form et)e
for the limitation of the Volunteers, that was six
timea the. -Milititt, wetald afford ample foundatiaent" 111
for a . permanent subsidiary Establishment. Au
itiereese apey. 'be. Made if eircatustaeces .resitaice
it, but it was tionecessery to lairthet the ,country ; ,
in the tirst,inaettlee.',SlX' litneS the. number at the
N.lihtia woieldH bee ler (teat Britain only 330,000
„men, The e
number, l, effe6tive VOlnuteers in free
lend wee ejoae on 70,000. Under this plan, there
would be therefore a , depie of 4.00;009, ready at a
momeoCamotice to, fell eiote the regitnents of the
I;ineettd,the Militia, irecotding att tbeytuty be wanted
to make them up. According to the last returns, .
1
erfe4tiee fie-et:o .Volilnteprs in Great ,f3ri-
lain was .oko hundredeand ninety thousand, There
wore-actually under arms at the last inapisetiott two
lituehed' and forty thousats4e ,The report of their
tliseielme was highly,levoureblee and they Werede-•
Cjaped folly of acting with the line. fie knew
; clue tilightefieh. Gent.. oplacieite (Mr, IVindl9m),
thoisght the Volunteers not fit to be seen in company
With the militia; but others thoughedifferently,,and
lieegreed with their:. When thegross =Oen( of the
effeetive Volunteers s'vas" tempered with six times
tile amount of the Militia, there w; found deficien-
ey ot eo,ooo on'the.eggregate. ' Bet when this de-
, 46e:icy cane to be tebdivided, 'there was found an
jeseitatity, soate of the eournieS being more deficient
end soil,;; less, amid turning the tatter the tnariiiied
counties; and the consequence of this inequality
was, that
~titt,ooo would be wanted to complete time
eseserishitient to the erootint desired. Hu proposed
there:Cie to. eilee to.' time Crown a. power to create as
local Militia, tis the agereeate amount of tio,ooo
•

, . .
men in .the first instance, to be increased in proper
tion as the Volunteer force should diminish, and
to sepersede them totally if they should w'ithdraw.
their services in the event of l'o a ice. , 'lt was iiils•!
faelien that in creestiug°this ferde, Which was that-
pulsoty in the first instance, the Country kid this
benefit of trying the experiment on a limited scale,
to proceed to a,more extensive application...Dr the
principle if it shoeld be found-successful. He felt
it desirable to proeeed'aCcerdiri2 to the accustomed
habits and principles of the Country, and therefore
he would prripese to;-conform the constitution of
this force to that of the Militia, but with this
difference, that whereae„the Militia was now like,
the.. Regular Forces, the Militia in time of peace,
would be assumed .as. a model, and consequently
the' services Of' this three would be confined to.
its counties except, in time of invasion, or when
the Enemy Should be aatially On the -coast, when
alone it may be ntifrched out of its ouritiesee-
It should he assembled at convenient times of the
year, fOr the purpose of training only, except in
time of invasion,when aaual service may be demand-
ed. With respei to the term of engagement, one
year's training, as provided by the Right Hon. Gen-
tlernares Bill, was wholly inadequate. It was desirable
that the Man should not be taken away inconveniently
from their occupations, without compensating the
'country by substantial improvement. It was desire-
` ble also, to prevent the too frequent recurrence of
the confusion of the ballot, and on these grounds
it was intended to propose au engagement to the la.
dividuals for a certain time, and to bind them to do
permanent duty in their own counties for a certain
number of days., This obligation he hoped would
not be considered hard; at the time when the pro,
spe& of being., able to continue, the occupations
of "industry depended on every man's being able
to dofend the seat of that industry with arms in
his hands. It was intended to allow no substitutes.
This force was not like the moveable militia, which,
taking men for years away noir, their homes and
establishments, would often be ruinous to families
unless substitution were allowed. A fee, days ser-
vice within his county would be no hardship to any
man, and if every one was allowed to come into the
market for a substitute, the most ruinous conse-
quences:to the Country would be felt in the enor-
mous rise of the bounties, as in the instance of the
provisional cavalry, in which, though the service
watewithin the cOunty, and to cue particular period
of the year, ,the price of subititutes rose-to 30 or 60
guineas. It was therefore thought right to allow no
substitutes. But id. order to prevent the injurious
• confusion of the highest with the lowest ranks, some
mitigation should be admitted, and he proposed to
follow .the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite, by allowing the• party to retire et) paying
a tine of such magnitude as to discourage the having
recourse to it, except in very strong cases. ' He
Would wish to encourage the service of persons of
rank as officers : conceiving there Were many per-
sons whO would enter into t is service vaintarily,
he proposed that such offers tould be received, and
lh
that the ballot should. be enf reed only where there
were no 'olieri, no seleetion by the parish officers.
He would not allow the parishes, any more than in-
dividuals, to find stibstituted ; for though they would
not mate eo general a competition in the market,
they woetd,yet create enough to. do mischief. To
prevent this evil, he proposed a penalty on the per-
, soli- copeenting to, bea substitute, and on the pariah
accepting him. He proposed to give a ernall,botm ty
of two or three guineas to those who should, enter',
voluntarily, in order to render the compulsory Oblis
gation of thelaw unnecessary. It was intended to
submit personi from a certain aeta to a certain age,
to the compulsory obligation ofa ballot, and by a
little attention to the classes, it weakd be easy to ele-
,,terMine the proper proportion. But it was only in
the event of a deficiency Of volunteers, that the bal-
lot was to be taken up ; therefore age could not be
so well applied, and th state of the volunteer esta-
blishment,would always'be a . difficult rnatter of re-
gulation. It would be better in These cireemstances
to throw out ttersons , of ' more advanced age alto-
gether, and, then there would be every reason to .be
:sere tpt the young men would readily take upon
them the increased burthen of a larger share in the
defence 'of the Country. ' LoOking •te a period,
when itestead of sietsethownd, the ballot was to be
enforced fora_ greeter tiumber, h,e- propoSed that the
ages to which it should apply, should bb flom i a
to 3b, and when a, stitficient netnber of volun-
teers should net otil, ho , proposed that the ' bal-
lot should apply between these ages. The qualiti-
Cation of officers he looked on millet* importaat J.
And, heepropeeetl that the regulations of the militia
.4ould be adopted as they now stood. No (igh-
' fil:ation on this head was required for subalterns.—.
-There was a latitude given- in the recommendation of
Captain's, it peesons qualified could: not be, found,
':held Officer; would be left as before, and-though it
:was difficult new to get qUali4ed persoas to: erve, it
was to' be hoped, that' service within the County ,
' would be-more attrelive, and that qualified .persons'
would Come for Ward tO. undertake It. He would
propose thee retired Vicki-Officers of the Line should '
be eligible, and he Was sure it would be considered
as it distinction justly due to those Officers who had
'reached that high station. ‘ The next, point to which
-she should call the attention of the House wee, that
to prevent this local militia. fromihterfering either
with the 'regular army" or: the regular militia, he
should prepose that no man taking. this engagement
should, during the four years for which it was in-
tended to last, be debarred from .enlisting in the re-,
pier army . or regular militia at his 'pleasure. He
-would however on this head propose one limitation in
.complimeet to the Commanding Officers, to whose
feelings it would not be very pleasing to have their
men attacked by recruiting parties,- while embodied
for the purpose of discipline. He should, there-
. fore, propose a restraint on their liberty of enlisting,
:fora part of the tithe during which they Would be
embodied. He conceived it. possible that volunteer
corps may, ,in many instances, wish to change the
:terms of their engagements' and to become corps of
local militia. It was well known that the establish-
! meats of ,solate volunteer corps were more expensive
than was necessary.. -This may be expeaed to pro-
duce some embarrassments with respea to funds,
which it would be desirable to escape, by'turning to
a service which required no stock purse. This -dise
position should be encouraged, because the local mi-
' litia would be always etieetive for service ; but other-
' WiSt,3 it was the disposittion of his Majesty's Ministers
to give evei-y possible support to the ichluteers, cone

sidering them, in their present highly discipline.'
state, preferable to any green force whatsoever.. It
was intended to put a stop to all insurances made
with a view to the mitigation of fine attached to the
refusal to do personal service ; and with' this view a.
penalty. would be imposed on the person having re-
course to insurance, and. the person with- whom he
may, be insured. Zhu- vt,lsole expence- of- t
posed force to the country Neotild not., euted that
of the Volunteers at present, nor that which would
be to be/ incurred under the Traininer Bill of the
Honourable Gentleman. He had nia4 coinparatira
calculations, and had. adjusted The' bill, which the .
Right Hon: Gentleman • might See, The Right
Hon. Gentlemen's t'rained •Intlik,Would cost, more
ttrm a volunteer or local militia mm. The cost of
this, last was something less than . 41; look.ed
upon it that 400,000 rank and file in addition,to
the- regular army and militia would do a great deal,
leht that was not the only 'means/of incree.ieddee
fence that.we possessed,-', There was, the provision-
al 'increase of 50,000, which Would give us an
army of 650,000 men, subject only to the redualon
on the formation of a peace establishment,
which
roduelion would never amount to 50,000. Always
keeping up that artiount of regnlar and subsidiary -
force, it would be impossible for the enemy to bring .
against us any army capable of making en impres-
sion ; and with the trained population which this .
measure and the volunteer system would necessarily •
generate, we would have such means of supplying
the waste of men, that the latigest force the enemy
could bring must perish in the unequal confli6.--
The amount of force alluded to would be amply
sufficient, and to train more would be, only idle
waste. An armed peasantry, thOughuseful in other
countries peculiarly (Armors% aced, could 'be of ,no
use in this. It would have been impossible to 'in
corporate them with the regiments, 'if inVasion,
should arise. Too extensive a training would be at
useless and unprofitable bUithen, tending to break
the back of the people, if the expresaion way
used. Having a regimental force of 400,000, In
addition to a regular army of 200,000, which maY,
if occasion required, be increased to 250,000, Par-
liament may rest content, and trust that the
empire
was secure. • He should now Move 'for leave 10
bring in the Bill., He was glad Gentlelnee would
have the interval of the recess to consider the provi-
sions of it ; and in, order to give them the greatest
-possible facility, he should -Moii:that the Bill be
printed. When they should re-assemble, and re- •
sume the consideration 'of this subjeat, he would re-
ceive with attention every suggestion ,Gentlemen
should offer, and end'eavour as much as possible to
:profit by therti. He moved for leave to bring in a
Bill to make,better provision for the internal defence

.of the kingdom. 7' .
Mr. YORKE- had two or thretkiideas, which ht
felt it his duty to state even now. It was impossi-
ble not to perceive the necessity.of providing a lare
manent defensive force. If a secure peaCe could at
at all be looked for, it was only by keeping op a mi-
litary force beyond what had ever been known et
this country, so as to be prepared for a war st any
moment. It was important to have men ready to .
fall into and to fill up the regular arniy. A consi- .
derable step was taken towards this by coaxal*,
the folunteera aed the militia. it was importaelkw
have a 'second militia formed to volunteer and OM' .
bine with the line, and a local militia also waS 3
thing very much npprOved of by him. It was sir'
possible that this country could always have a rep*
lar army sufficient to proteet it in the circumstance
of the present times; it was therefore as necessary 0$
it was constitutional to provide subsidiary forces. It
was only the critical circumstances of the tittles that
justified, or seenaed to juetify, the great amount 01
the standing army we had at present. It wac im-
possible to say what events 'may arise to render still
further exerpons necessary, to our safety.
our flanks was cottpletely turned, and the other
may be in a very short time. We would then be
equally exposed on the Ea.'st,Weist, and South Coast.
His principal object in rising at present W now
as t ex.
press his hope that d permanent system would n
with which
be established, instead of the yearly ones One of
we had been hitherto tormented. Next to a g
regular army, which
'4
which we bad, it. was e
should have, a local militia of as large an amount
as possible. Some intermediate force between this
ssential that we e,
and the regular army, applicable to Great Brit3'a
and Ireland, was also wanted. His wishes, in that ,
client', would h
-e• to combine the' regular with the
local oe!'ette,,,tind after the present war to put 011
tea
the smite footing with reaped to training within the
counties in peace and itr war, and never to be caltt.i.
out of them but in the event of invasion. Ile:
combination of the Officers and men of ti., presenb
Int
iljtla would' more easily render ihe others feEtiv-
et was most essential to consider the : PAT:
viding by ballot a permanent force to sero it'-'-'
Tills force
criminately in Great Britain or Ireland•
was necessary to prevent having recourse to exPe'
clients on the .press of any extraordinary emergecy.
The Amount of this militia for Great Britain anq
Xreland should be aseeooe _lt would be the eecoote
line of an army, and should be otficered by' men re-
gularly bred to a military life. He rectum-vended to
imitate the example of the French, who had them-
selvecimproved on the ideas of. the Romans, wh°
were the first military nation of antiquity. The
French distinguished their national guards Into
moveable and sedentary. He recommenced the
same principle to his Majesty's Ministers Pod 1°
Parliament. ' . .
... - Ilce,
Mr. IVlNDfidill,-adverting, in the first p i
~
to what hadiallen from his Hon. Friend who 11",
just sat down, remarked upon the observation 0. 1
that Hon. Gentleman,' that he was gild the militarYe.
system of. the country was at length to be settlea
and render- ed permanent, e that that esPressic;
would have been more applicably direeed again!:
those whie when the system 'was establishea .
,carne with new propeeitions to break it
up. _
He was.. sure his Honourable Friend would o,o_l
be so unreasonable as to expe6t, that 'he (IYesre..
Windham) would join in his satisfaction ; he v_"',..
had hoped, some time, ago, that the sYstern wae 'wee,'
tied on a basis on. which it would be suffered t? 'l'
N ble
main. With respea to the speech of the °
re
Lord, this was not the moment to enter into 3..7, ,
discussion of the detail of the grand plen which the
Noble Lord had just developed. He terreo 1'
• 1 of the
grand plan, not only from the consideratiot
„cot,
quarter whence it proceeded, butt rom the int!' '
1 on
inva 0 e
of design, the complication of parts, the Noble
of expedients which it manifested, li'e

~.~
,~~

Lord . did not seem ,to think
c. ‘yupet,
glia4fri4neri
niciorci, non aietrtfieri per filura.". form-
edha4
.•
his scheme, no on the sirople. Oen of ancient
drama, but lid I,lntrodtieed,''eillt he linatle and utci
,7.,
dent, all t ipPlit,sticcessiOn' of exits end entretices,
all the surprising 'and w itinsecal.ehangesof scene of
modern. comtidy ;: and 'he Contrived also to keep, his.
audience in a delightful suspense ; as to the catas-
trophe of 'his_ composition, wlsaterr complication,
however, there might be in the mean, the end
' must necese,irily be 'simple. There Were two cibjeas,
' to the attlihmient of which every military system
must be.,tiii-eaed. The firit was to provide an ade-
quate supply for the regular artny7—tie second to,
guard again it the'dangerefinvasioli from a foreign foe.
With Vespea to the first, the Noble Lord very pro-,
perly had abstained from smiOg Apyrthilig„ fbr the
regular army wps sufficient; With resp4t to the se,
coed, which, to describe it sabre fully, was the cols-
'sideration of the best mode of reederieg the remain
tag part, of. the population of the country available to
its defence from external attack. With respea to
this object he differed very Materially from the Nable
Lord. When the Noble Lord profeseed to speak
candidly of the Treining A&, he expected that he
would not treat it fairly, and so it . had proved. He
hid never expected that from-that measure any very
considerable advantage would be, derived, except as
it tvaS a meads enrolling a.large proportloe. of the
population of the Island, „and kegping,tt us readiness
to be made use of 'on an emergency in any manner
that -might be, tin-ight advisable.' He denied that
thatAneasure Was oppressive, as stated by the Noble
Lord;
. L on the contrary, the extent of its advantage
bad been' dirninlithed expressly for the purpose of
rendering it less burthensome than it would other-
wise have been. The Noble Lord, however, bad
chosen to describe he. Training Ate as a Measure
calculated to produce the mast dreadful efreCtse•aS'a
raw head and bloody bones, which•had alarmed the'
• whole country. Now what Ved the Noble Lord
done to even these evils ? proposed a memsire
ten times more en 'ormous upon the people. 'He ;IA:.
posed to take a man to a distance learn his home,
and to compel him to undergo military discipline for
twenty-eight days-. Did the Noble Lord 'contem-
plate the injury which the iebabitants of the eiatrifry
would sustain- from such a proceeding,. not only in a ;
pecuniary but also in moral point of view? He Would
advise hint to ask any sober and serious Magistrate'
what had been the consequence, in many inatehees,
of'. putting a volunteer corps from the countryttlion
Permanent duty its a large town. Ttie Noble: Lord
kepi the' Training Mt Bill, but gave it additional
farce and vigour. He. (Mr. 'Windham) Wished it
had been kept a; left by him, but if not; that:lts
iri-ers had been correeted ; still, however, retaining
ts spirit as s Training 811 merely. And here ft
he' Came to the great question between 'himself
arid the Noble Lord, namely, as to what the
Noble Lord called men regimented and mee 'unre-
gitnented. The Noble-Lord stated, that men trained
its pursuanCe -of the -Training Bill,. if 4mited to a
regiment, instead of conituOtlicatine strength. syeuld
only create Coofusion. But would the- additional
training proposed by ,the Noble Lord produce any
very. superior effeas ? Antj altered!, were these men
to a& aa individuals ? -syLIA it pr6bahle ,that they
would be sent to join regiments ordered on imme-
diate service ? I:7,yea in that case they would t4)e bet-
ter than the volunteers with the iocumbrattee of
their Officers, for to talk ,as the .Nolte Lord had
. done of the Reports of the Field Officers, who had
'declared that many of the volunteer corps were fit to
• as with the linee appeared to bier, to be most eh-
wird and childish. Would-any experienced Officer
venture to cover his flank in action withsuch Men ?
If he wanted to maintain the possession of 'an ,irn-
portent post, would he trust to the proteaibiT of such-
a raw band ? Where troops were assembted to
in a great body, a failure; in one point endangered '
the safety of the-whole; and it might es'Well be
supposed that an Adthiral would admit 'articiret the
7. Ships of the Line, which constituted his: bider' of
battle, Frigates or Vessels of interior force, as that a
General should Admit into the arras of his attack or
defence, men, who °though they were ilreSeed
and . wore the appearance of soldieler, were, from
indvitable circumstances, incapable efficiently to tier
Operate with regular troops; oti that footing. there-
fore he contended that the volunteer system was dee
lusive, and so would be that of the compolsory
militia. He entered into a .verY!detalled state.
'vent of the progressive advantages - which the
Country was deriving from the plans adopted on
his suggestion when in Administration, and con-'
tended that they were broken Up for the ' sake
of recurring to, that practice, so contrary to the
usage of all otheie ages and nations, the enlist•
rnent of soldiers for life. In the plans proposed
by the Noble Lord, lie could not help suspea--
ing that there was_ a view ttipatranage and influence,
/ When the, volunteers patsed into regihsents, proe
posed by the Noble Lord, those regiments must,
have officers, and every appointment of that dee'
scription would convoy to he granter a certain de-
gree of patronage and influence. Of the solicitude
of -the present. Administration to secure to them
helves as much influence as possible 00, this subjeti;
he could afford to the House,a tolerable example,
His Majesty's late Administration bad proposed an
extension of recruiting officers, and had particularly
wished that they should be takers' from the half-pay'
list of the army. Abotit liOneofficera were so up- '
Pointed. But when his Majesty's present Ministers
came into office, they substitoteil 5000 Oolunteer -
serjeants. Now the 200 regtilar Officers obtained
„ „
2000. recruits, in the.. same lengto :tat time that it
• cost the 2000 voluoteer serjeants to obtain
This was the rule of three . inverse. "Aye, but,"
the Noble Lord would, say, " the regular officers
had :401. a man, while the volunteer Serjeanta had
but tol, teman." Prue; but ihe former were nOder '
an en4agement to refund the money advaneed to
them„ if they failed itiproeuting recruits; the letter
were•allowed to retain it at all events. Whilethe
Noble Lord Coot inued to recomniend. the predigious'
expellee; which the volunteer system, occasioned, it •
was absurd to talk of the pitiful savings which wire
the subject of diseassion yesterday evening. It was
e farthing of Wisdom, but a pound of folly.- mil-
' lion a-year might. dedui9ed from the expense of
the volunteers, and the'couturf be touch benefited
by the circuinstence. • „. e.
Lord CASTLEREAGH in' explanation, denied.
that he had a6andoned the Right Hon. Gentleman's
• training system. All he. wished was not to carry it
to eteater lengths than whatewas necessary. - With

respeft to the recruiting officers f otn we arilly,allua..
ed to by11ie...j194. :Gentleman, they WCrt 400 in
nurnber_when he catie into office, and mere rapidly.
increasing, Aerjeant. WAS attached : to. each, -so
that the expence ,to the country was considerable.;
It had therefore ben detertniued by his, Majesty's
Government,4hat kthose among thew .who had notT
evinced any exertion, should be dismissed., The"
volunteer. serjeat4s had otlly coipmissions, given
them to enlist, but no sum, utiless-the wen were
raised, 'Certainly. the :Inspecting 'Fields (Akers
were all Owed to make advances to those serjeants,
and the only reason why no bond of security was.
given-by them on thdie advances, was; the large
duties on such bonds,

Mr. Wtivnn.nsr eXplained..
General I'ARLEITON contended; that the time
for making a radical reformation' in an army was
peace and dot war; and that the army in this Min-
try, if a'proper disposi,tion were Made of it, would
be amply sufficient, without the NositiOri. of any,
additional burt hen 'upon ihe people by dallot or other..
. wise, to repel Whatever enemy might venture to at-
tack us. The path,:tie manner in which the Hon.
Gentlerrian had so'repeatedlY deplored the subversiOn
of his military system, reminded hirdoi the lamen-
tation of Rachel,' 40 according to the Scriptures,
" could not be comforted.`' • 'Among other regula-
tions which 'fie thought it Would, be adviSeable to
adopt in the preient itincttire, he strenuously recom
mended the formations of Camps for the exercise of
our army, both regulars and Militias He was coo-,,
vinced.lsb, that if tIA irolunteers were united for a
time to regular troops for the purpose of sharing in
their discipline,. and of being instructed by. their
examplt,!,.-it 'would have an excellent effect, by
awakening their dormant spirit, and by inspiring the
whple of our military force with enthusiasm and
patilotistn, '
Leave was then given to bring in the 13111.
SIIPENDIARY:CURATES. • •
The 'CHANCELLOR, of the ES.CHIM UER moved for
leaye to bring inT--a for making more effectnal
provision tar th.e.maintainance of Stipendiary Curates,
and for their residence- on their Cures. fie. Pre-
faced -his motion with a . speech of considerable
length, in which he described the three faiiuree
'Which. this measure . had already experienced h 41,1
Parliament, contended that those failures by no'
rnestts precluded., success in the present instance;
aild'repeated all his former arguments as to' the Pro- 1
- .
priety and necessity of the measure.
_•••

A very long discussion ensued, in which Lord.
PORCRE,IIER, Mr. ette,Evci, Dr. LAWRENCE, and
Mr. WINIifIANI, argued warmly against the mea-
sure proposed, as trenching materially and unjustly
upon the rights of one set of men, for the purpose
bienetitino• another. The measure was as warmly ad-
voCated by, the CuANcELA.ottpf the EXCHEQUER and,
Mr. BAD. INGTON.

Leave was then granted.
Ordered, on the Motion ofMr. CaELVEy, after. a
few obsematiOns. from him,. Mr. Iltisxissox, ud
CHANC.ELLOIi Of 1110 EIi:CHELAUR:; that there be
laid below the. lionse an Account qt the Proceeds of
all the Droits of 4dtuiralty received by his Majesil
in ilic riglit_of hilicrown, and as High Ado:Aral of
.linland,- from the year 1,792 to .theyear 1802 it;-
dusiVe.
.Mr. Rustt brought up tiv Ilepcirt Ott the Cot:
ton Weavers' Petition ; whiat was ordered to be
printed.. .
he Irish Recognizance Bill pawl& through a
Gcnnthittee, and was ordered to be reported this' day.
Sir ART,HOR WF:LLESLRy brought up the Reports
of the Irish Customs Fees Abolition Bill, and the
Irish 'Promissory' Note Bill, which were agreed to
iieverallyi ;Rid .ordered to be read a thirdtime to-

morrow.,
hlr'.
. ,
brdught up the Report of the
Cbmcnittee of Supply; the further consideration of
which was deferred to this day, on the suggestion of
. Parnell refetring to the state of the House, antk
acce&le4 to by Mr. Foster, in order to give the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. P.) at opportunity of producing
bis catechist o to a.fuller' House.