The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

pense it would entail on the public'.—(lkar, hear.) It wtts
stated by the Commissioners in their report that there were in
Edinburgh from 40,900 to 50,000 persons who were not
in the habit of attending Divine worship in the churches;
bu for his own part he was wholly at a loss to know how
they had arrived at any such a result. He now came to the
resolutions and their promoters. tie bad shown that there
was an immense number of seats unoecupiee, and therefore
must suppose that those who proposed the building and en-
dowment of additional churches ascribed to the walls of such
fabrics virtues which he could not think they possesbed. He
did not believe that there was any justification for the propo-
sition for building additional churches, because, when he found
that there were 15,000 or 16,500 who were not in the habit
of attending public worship, and so large a number of seats
unoccupied, he could not give credence to the statement that
any great degree of destitution eisted. The Dissenters of

Seotilnd c sold refer with pride and satisfaction to their exer-
tions in the way of church extension, and the ministration of
their missionaries; and, for his own part, he thought that
much more good could be done through the instruntentality
of missionaries, than by building of churches. At all events,
by the adoption of such a system, there would b a material
diminution in the way of- expense. Now, what was it that
the Hon. Members opposite proposed? Why, nothing more
nor less than that a grant of public money should be made
for the purpose of enciowiag cluirches, and chapels of
ease in the first instance. That was, in effect, to take a
burden off the shoulders of the wealthy and great, which-
they bad hitherto voluntarily borne, in the most praise-wor-:
thy manner ; but this *as not the way to benefit the poor.--
( Hear) If they once concurred in such a proposition, what

would be the effect? Why, that they would establish a prin-
ciple by which a sum of perhaps twenty millions of the public
money might before long be called for, in order to meet the
;exigencies of Church ministrations in England and Scotland.
—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baranet had told them their
inquiry was useless, and had attributed the delay which had
taken place to the Government; but was that the fact ?
( Hear.) Notwithstanding the Right Hon. Baronet had de-
nied being actuated by any such motives, he (Mr. Gillon)
must express it as his belief that the present motion was dic-
tated more by political partisanship than by religious zeal.—
( Hear.) If the rules of the House permitted it he would
have moved, by way of amendntent, a counter resolution; but,
as he was precluded from adopting any such course, he must
content himself with voting against the motion of the Right
Hon. Baronet, on the ground that he believed the demand
now made was uncalled for, and that there existed no well-
founded pretence fur granting the public money for any pur-
pose of the kind.—( Hear.)

Sir R. PEEL said that the Noble Lord bad referred to the
sum of 140,000,0001., which had been expended during the
last year of the war in 1815, and which had been necessary to
support that mighty contest, which had been concluded by the
glorious battle of Waterloo.—(Cheers.) Now the House of
Commons had expressed their entire concurrence in the policy
of that expenditure, artd unless he were very much mistaken
the Noble Lord himself did not dissent by his vote from the
address presented to the Crown on that memorable occa-
sion.—(Cheers.) He thought also that if the Noble Lord
inquired he would find among his colleagues men who had
given their cordial support to the policy which the Noble
Lord thought fit now to condemn, and which terminated, as
had already been stated, in the glorious battle of Waterloo
(Loud cheers.) But all this was beside the question before
the House, nor could he bring himself to think that it
would be taken as conclusive proof that the religious institu-
tions of Scotland did not call for consideration.—( Hear.) The
Noble Lord had objected to any partial consideration of the
question now, although when he appointed the Commissioners
he expresslystated that he contemplated that they would make
periodical reports, which were to receive separate considera-
tion. They had before them the report relating to the city of
Edinburgh, and, therefore, could there be any good reason
shown why they should not at once proceed to the considera-
tion of the state of religious instruction in that metropolis, with
a view to affording a remedy if any crying evils were proved
to exist ?—( Loud cheers.) But the Hon. Gentleman who
last addrdsed the House had said that they would not be
justified in interfering at present. Now, what were the facts
stated in the Report ? Why, that not less than from 40,000 to
50,000 persons, not mere children, but that part of the adult
population who ought to go to Church, who were both capable
and able to attend, were in the habit of neglecting public
worship entirely. If ever there were facts which rendered
the interference of the Legislature necessary, these were the
circumstances.—( Hear, hear.) His Right 'Hon. Friend had
called on them to apply their consideration to the, separate case
of the metropolis, and the reason he did so was; that there
were 50,000 persons in Edinburgh who altogether neglected
divine worship. This was stated in the Report:—
" But the principal reason, and that of which all parties
concur in admitting the force, is the indifference of the people

themselves. This occurs from various causes : some are in
extreme poverty, so occupied in obtaining the means of sub-
sistence, and so absorbed in their own sufferings, that they
have no thoughts to bestow on other subjects. The Rev. Mr.
Bennie observes, that they cannot tell how they live, nor
what they do, so that to ask if they went to church would be
a piece of supererogation.'
" Others arc
,indifferent, because their attention has never
been called to the subject of religion, and they remain in the
total ignorance of the duties which it imposes.
" Many (says the Rev. Dr. Clarke) do not even know the
first truths of religion—you might as well preach to them in
Hebrew as in English.
" A large portion again are sunk in habits of debauchery
which render them quite insensible to every feeling, either of
religion or morality. Some frightful instances of depravity
appear in Dr. Lee's evidence, and the printed reports of the
transactions of missionary societies. Intemperance in the use
of spirituous liquors is said to be a great source of evil."
Now this was the state in which from forty thousand to
fifty thousand persons in Edinburgh were described to him,
and he did, therefore, ask that House whether they did not
think it advisable to apply, at all events to a limited extent,
a remedylto such evils, and whether the Femoral of such evils
ought not to counterbalance all the speculative objections
that could be made on the subject.—(Cheers.) There was
a publication entitled " Statistics of the Church Accommoda-
tion of Glasgow," a document of great importance, which
gave much valuable information on the subject. That pub•
lication stated some striking facts respecting the proportions
of the population marked by the commission of crime and the
habitual neglect of Divine worship. He begged the atten-
tion of the House to the simple statement which this record
of the statistics of Glasgow furnlshed. It said—" Now the
records of our statistics furnish one class of facts,
and the records of our police-office and bridewell furnish
another, which enable us experimentally to determine this
point. By an examination of our statistics, and of the sur-
vey of the parochial agents, we find that in Goosedale, Bridge-
. gate, Old and New \Vynds, Saltmarket, Old and New Ver-
mals, Havannah, Dempster.areet, and the poor districts of
Corbels and Calton, the people only possess church accom-
modation in the proportion of 2f, 24, 5,8, or 11 in the 100.
And from positive and personal inquiry we can state, on the
authority of the captain of the police and the Magistrates on
the one hand, and of the Governor and Chaplain of Bride-
well on the other, that nearly all the criminals who arc tried
by the one and immured in the other, come from those very
places we have just cuumeratsd, where the people are so des-
titute of church accommodation ; while from those quarters of
the city where the people possess church accommodation in
the prqportion of 50, 60, 70, or 80, in the 100, the police.
office has no criminals, and Bridewell has no inmates.
These experimental Gets clearly indicate the relative power
and influence of the fear of God and the fear of man—
the instruction of the Church and-the coercion of Bridewell,

in securing the peace and order of society. And, since no-
thing which tends to promote that object can be alien to the
spirit or design of Government, with such positive facts as
these it does excite our wonder how the speculative , opinion
that the State has nothing to do with religion ever came to be
entertained."—(Cheers.) Why, if they only considered the
question with reference to the narrow principles of pecuniary
economy, his opinion was, without looking at all to the moral
policy of the matter, that, by giving the means of attending
Divine worship to the great mass of the population, they
would effect a saving, that, even in a money point of view,
would outweigh all other advantages.—( Cheers.) He would
make this offer to the people of Scotland, " If you provide
churches, the State shall supply the expenses of endowments."
—(Cheers.) That was the limit which he would apply in the
first instance, before he granted Parliamentary aid ; and he
would have this conclusive evidence that such aid was neces-
sary, namely, that before any grant of public money was made,
he would call the voluntary assistance of those into operation
who were the best able to judge of the necessity, from local
interest, and an intimate knowledge of what was necessary for
the wants of the people. In this way the whole expense would
not exceed 20,0001. a year, because they would insure the
erections of,thc buildings by means of voluntary contributions.
If they could induce voluntary contributions sufficient for the
religious wants of the poor in the towns, it would be all well
and good ; but if they could not, then he thought the Legis-
lature ought to slip in and insist on making a proper provision
for the religious and moral education of the people.—(Cheers.)
It was said by those who vindicated the rights of the Dissent-
ers, that they ought not to be burdened for this ; but he must
say that lie thought that a radical fallacy. If there were large
classes of the population of the towns avowedly irreligious, and
who infested the public streets for the purposes of crime,
surely a stronger case for the interference of Parliament could
not possibly be made out. He admitted that building churches
would not be of much avail—that ibuilding churches and pro-
viding for sittings would only go a little way to remedy the
evil complained of. Dr. Chalmers said that besides remov-
ing the present barrier there should be a propelling motive
added, and therefore it was necessary that they should provide
psoper ministers who would exert themselves in endeavouring
to reclaim the people from bad and dissolute habits by convinc-
ing them that a due attention to their religious duties and
public worship would not only be a consolation tb them in
their distress, but would rescue themselves and their families
from degradatiUn.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the fact
statedin the report, that there were in Edinburgh 40,000 or
50,000 persons who were in the habit of neglecting diline
worship, fully justified them in proceeding with the considers-
tion of this resolution. Until the buildings were erected they
would not be called on for the endowments, and by taking
this course they would give an incredible stimulus to the rats-
ing of churches wherever religious instruction was needed.—
( Cheers.) On these grounds he believed it to be their duty
to concur in the present proposition, and he for one, as a
member of the Church of England, was willing to bear his
full share of whatever contributions might be necessary.
Mr. HORSMAN said that when his Hon. Friend appealed
to the indulgence of the House as one of the Commissioners
whose Report was under discussion, he also felt inclined to
make a similar appeal, with a hope that it would be similarly
received ; but, thinking the House exhausted, be refrained.
Since, however, the Right Hon. Baronet (the Member for
Tannworth) had once more roused their interest, he was in-