The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-21 00:00:00

plan had received was from those who in the House
constituted the great number of the supporters of the
Ministry, who out of the House made the most noise
in their support, but who neither in that House nor out
of it really represented the wishes of the people.
Mr. O'CONNELL had intended only to have
spoken to the general merits of the question, but as he
had been so pointedly referred to by the Hon. Baronet
opposite, he felt bound to notice some of the opinions
he had put forward and some of the mistakes
he had made. He would begin with the least material,
the number of petitions that he had stated had been
presented on this subject. He admitted that a great
number of petitions had been presented against the
Government plan, but those petitions were miserably
deficient in signatures.—( Hear, hear.) There had been
1,600 petitions presented against the plan.—(Cries of
3,000.") He held in his hand the last return of the
number of petitions, and there they were stated at
1,600. Not more than three or four of these petitions
had been printed, because they were all so similar that
it was not necessary.—(Cheers.) To those 1,609 peti-
tions there were attached only 165,729 signatures ; while
on the subject of the extension of the franchise to Ireland
there were presented only 192 petitions, but the signa-
tures amounted to 170,942. From Scotland 611 peti-
tions had been presented relative to the extension of
Church accommodation, and to those petitions there
were attached 141,370 signatures. Upon the subject
of what was • called Orange domination, or in other
words the approval of the course pursued by her Ma-
jesty's Government 710 petitions had been presented, to
which were attached no less than 550,356 signatures.
What did this prove ? Why the dexterity of the sup-
porters of the other side of the House in getting up pe-
titions in great numbers, but a want of tact in obtaining
signatures to them.—(Great laughter.) All the
petitions that had been presented against the
plan were so similar in appearance, that they ap-
peared to have been begotten at the same time.—
(Increased laughter.) It was a gross mistake to sup-
pose that the good sense of the people of England was
in favour of a bigoted plan of education.—( Hear,
hear.) The attempt to raise the No Popery cry, had
signally failed.—(Hear.) It was growing weaker and
weaker every day.—( Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. O'Connell)
regretted to see the Noble Lord, the Member for North
Lancashire, supporting it, because he considered such
support unworthy of the great talents of that Noble Lord.
The Right Hon. Baronet had laid it down as a principle
that it was the duty of the Government to show a pre-
ference for Protestantism ; but how were they to ehow
this preference ? They ought to carry out this prin.
ciple. It was not sufficient not-to encourage that which
was not Protestant, they ought to go further, and not
be content with supporting truth, it was their duty to
proscribe error.—(Cheers.) Let them work out their
principle if they could, let them carry it out if they
dared—(Cheers)—let them exclude Catholics from
the Legislature. He was there in spite of them now ;
let them send him out if they could.—(Cheers.) They
had already tried exclusion, and had found that it would
not serve their purposes. Under a system of exclusion
the Catholics had multiplied immensely in Ireland, and
had rather been on the increase in England. Let them
therefore take up the good old Spanish plan, and burn,
and thus work out their principle. But he would tell them
they could not work it out—the principle was a bad one
—fatal in politics and unsound in religion—because
that was no legitimate rdigion which would attempt to
force consciences.—(Cheers.) Force might make hypo-
crites, but persuasion alone could make converts.—
(Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had in-
sinuated that his opinion, to which he had given expres-
sion, was in opposition to the opinion of the Catholic
Church. He would tell that Right Hon. Gentleman
that he held no opinion as a Catholic which was in oppo.
sition to the opinion of the Catholic Church. He sub-
mitted to the authority of his Church, and if he held
any opinion which was not in accordance with
the opinions of that Church, he would at once
give such an opinion up (Loud cheering)
he subjected himself' entirely to the Church. He
begged pardon of the House, but the Right Hon.
Baronet had taunted him, when he denied the accusa-
tion, that he considered him an heretic. He had no
right to judge him.—(Cheers.) He believed his
opinions to be erroneous, but he believed he adopted
those opinions with sincerity, and with caution, and if
he had taken the trouble to investigate, and had been
baptized in the Christian Church, believed him to be a
member of the Catholic Church, if he had adopted
those opinions with caution and sincerity. He felt that
he had no right to judge him ; it was a matter between
his God and himself ; to God alone was he responsible,
and not in any case had a human being a right to judge
him. Oa this subject all were equally irresponsible
—(C,heers)—and whether it were a paltry bribe for a
school or for a place in the Excise, or for a seat on the
bench, or for a precedence at the bar, all these were of
the same category—all belonged to the same princip'.e of
persecution. The Right Hon. Baronet had' no right to
persecute him, and he had no right to persecute the
Right Hon. Baronet.—(Loud cheers.) He had
thought it right to diserntarass the subject of this topic,
and he now proceeded to the question before the House.
He had shown how signal had been the failure of this
attempt to revive the "No Popery" cry. They had
the power of the Established Church, and the well or-
ganized machinery of the Wesleyan Methodists to back
them; and yet how paltry had been the signatures which
they had obtained.—(Oh, from the Opposition benches.)
When he said.so he meant to cast no doubt on the
respectability of the parties who had signed those peti-
tions, but certainly the signatures were paltry in point
of numbers. What was the question the Government
had proposed by the minute of the 11th April? the
formation of normal schools, and in that minute they
had proposed what, strictly speaking, they had no
right to do, that a chaplain should be appointed for the
exclusive instruction of children belonging to
the Established Church. It was perfectly right
the children belonging to the Established Church should
have religious instruction, but not at the expense of the
Catholics and Dissenters, for whose instruction no Chap-
lains were appointed at the public expense. Thus the Esta-
blished Church, by this plan, was placed in a more favourable
position. The funds for supporting this system of edu-
cation were not taken from the Established Church—no
part of the revenues of that Church were divested for tl e
purposes of defraying the expences of these schools.
Those expences were to be defrayed out of the general
funds of the nation, to which the Members of the Protes-
tant Establishment, the Dissenters and the Catholics of
the three:countries, alike contributed ; therefore, so far
a Government plan gave the Established Church a
decided advantage, which was not consistent with strict

justice—but he would Oct therefore have departed from
the plan, because on such an important sulject as edue,e.
den he would not look t) any little advantages on one side
or the other. The Noble Lori proposed that the children
of different religious persuasions should be educated in
common. lie thought that nothing could be more desir.
able in this country, which was separated into 50 or 60
difforent religions persuasions, than to take advantage of the
unsophisticated feeling of youth, mitigating in after days
the bitterness excited by religious ddference.s, and thus
endeavouring in some degree to assuage the angry pas-
sions,l which might arise, in consequence by the re-
collections of childhood. The Honourable Mem-
ber for Soinersetshire had slid that this experiment
was tried and had never succeeded ; he denied the fact ; he
admitted that it had not been tried in Prussia, for the Ca-
tholic children were there educated under the instructions
of the Catholic clergy, and the petition that bad been
complained of so much, the petition of the Archbishop of
Tuam and the clergy of his diocese, what did that peti-
tion claim ? Did it claim that the Catholic clergy should
have the superintendence of the education of the children
of the Protestant establishment ? No. That they should
superintend the education of the children of the Dissen-
ters ? No. But merely that they should superintend the
education of the Catholic children. But what the Right
Hon. Bart. claimed was, that the eduction of the Dissen-
ters, the education of the children of Roman Catholics,
the education of children of all religious peruasionse should
be under the exclusive controul of the Established Church.
—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches, and cries of
" No, no," from the Opposition.) He knew that the
Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Tarnwortb, had not
made this assertion, but what the other Right Hon. Baro-
net had said was this, " You shall not educate your own
children, you shall all go under the yoke of the Esta-
blished Church, and submit to the inspection of the Esta-
blished Clergy ;" therefore, he contended for the same es
the Archbishop of Tuam, and he had no right to impugn,
as he had done, the opinions of the Catholic Clergy of
Connaught. The Hon. Member for Somersetshire had
begun by signifying his dislike to enter into pole-
mics, and it was fortunate he had done so after
the statement he had made; he had then indulged in a
splendid panegyric on the Established Church of this
country for having educated a greater number of children
than any other sect : granted, they had done so. That was
a reason for not making any grant to them : they had
funds enough already. He had expected, after this splendid
description of what the Established Church had done for
the promotion of education, that the lion. Gentleman
would have said " See what we have done ! see what
funds we possess! we ask no participation in this miserable
Government grant; we will give up the whole to you,
who do not, like ourselves, enjoy possession of eight mil-
lions a year." But instead of that they were not content,
but said—" We have so much, now give us more,"
—(Hear, hear)—thus reminding him of the personage
in the Old Testament, who, not satisfied with the
possession of his own large flock, would have
the solitary ewe belonging to another.—( Cheers.) ,
He would now come to the Government plan of the 3d of
June; in that plan the Government had given up the
system of normal schools; he was sorry they had so far
yielded to public clamour. lie had hoped that a more
healthy spirit Lad been abroad among the English public,
and they would not have objected to a plan which proposed
that the tutors of each religious persuasion should be
educated in common. Let them be educated in common
on the grounds of the general religion, while on sHe had
religion each should be educated separately.
beard that this division of religion
had given great offence,
sutehhat;mth,feurltowpcicres
thoughtn e r
ita l andder specialgatory
to their common Christianity, to suppose
i ohne into
ge
not many points on which they were not all agreed.
He (Mr. O'C.) durot hardly speak upon
ten of the Sermon on 1
int hat House. The Noble Lord (Ashley) had dwelt for an
hour upon them. He had spoken
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e
dinary merit, or but a Had and ear. )
Mount, and said that he
tteldesuagnteatioitn.p_es(si,e
jsosendo noexutrat,:rl:
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Pardon him (Mr.
(Mr. O'C.) heard him say so emphatically, and with much
pain and sorrow. But did not that Sermon possess a cha..