The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-11 00:00:00

POLAND.

Mr. BEAUMONT inquired when the hon. member for
King's County intended to proceed with his motion on
Poland.

Mr. HENNESSY said he wished the discussion should
take place as early as possible, and he hoped the noble lord
would give him Thursday for the purpose.
Viscount PALMERSTON said he was desirous of pro-
ceeding with supply on Thursday; but he would give the
hon. member Monday week.
Mr. HORSMAN hoped the noble lord would reconsider
his decision, and allow the discussion to be taken on Thurs-
day.

After a few words from Sir G. Grey, Mr. Sclater-Booth,
and Mr. Collins, who suggested that a series of morning
sittings should be given to the discussion of Poland,
Mr. H ENNESSY expressed his surprise, after the
pledge given by the noble lord on a former occasion, that he
should now object to give Thursday for the discussion of
the Polish question. The right hon. member for Stroud
had a motion on the paper on the same subject, and he
trusted the right hon, gentleman would inaugurate the dis-
cussion.

Mr. HORSMAN said he had not put his notice on the
paper with any intention of interfering with the hon. mem-
ber for King's County; but, believing that it was extremely
important to have a discussion on Poland, he should on
every motion for supply endeavour to raise the discussion,
unless the Government gave up Thursday for the purpose.
Lord PALMERSTON said the hon. member for King's
County accused him of a breach of faith. He denied the
accusation. He had promised to give the hon. member a
Government night, and he now offered him Monday night
week, which was a Government night.
The matter then dropped.
VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
Mr. FITZ WILLIAM moved for copies of any corres-
pondence between Mr. Langford and the Colonial Depart-
ment, relative to alleged abuses in the Government of Van-
couver's Island ; and between the Colonial Government and
Governor Douglas, referring to Mr. Langford's changes ;
and with the Government of Vancouver's Island relative to
the appointment of Chief Justice Cameron, and the remon-
strances against such appointment ; and of any petition re-
cently received from Vancouver's Island praying for the
redress of grievance 3.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE was willing to grant the papers if
the words "or extracts" were inserted in the motion. He
would propose an amendment to that effect.

After a few words from Mr. render, Mr. Malins, and Mr,
Wyld,

Lord PALMERSTON hoped the hon. member would
assent to the insertion of these words. It was the regular
way in which motions for correspondence wherein there
might be mixed up personal details were framed.
Mr. FITZ WILLIAM assented,

The amendment and motion were then withdrawn, on
the understanding that the papers would be granted as an
unopposed return.
THE BOARD OF WORKS.

Sir S. M. PETO, in calling attention to the want of
efficient control of the public works of the country, and
the necessity of reorganising the Board of Works, with a
view to remedying the evil, said there were 120 buildings
in England and 24 in Scotland, 17 parks, 10 post-offices,
31 probate registries, and £28,000 a year for several
offices rented, which paid their owners from 5 to 7 per
cent., under the care of the First Commissioner, who ought
therefore to be called the First Commissioner of Parks,
Palaces, and Public Offices. And yet the real public wcrks
of the country were conducted by the departments with
which they were severally connected. For instance, the
Admiralty took charge of the harbours throughout this
country. Now in France, if a dock was to be made, it was
referred to the Minister of Public Works, who was guided
by the navy department and other officials in drawing up
the plans. To illustrate the expensive system adopted in
this country, he might say that the harbour of Keyham cost
four times the amount of its original estimate; and that
though the first estimate for Alderney harbour was only
£650,000, the construction of one pier cost £1,500,000. A
like extravagant departure from the original estimate took
place in the case of Holyhead harbour, and the story would
be repeated until the public works of the country were
placed under one Minister, who would be responsible to
Parliament. In France, Prussia, Austria, and Italy shch
a system prevailed, and the result was that estimates were
not exceeded to any considerable extent ; that plans were
well considered before they were undertaken ; and that no
useless works were constructed, at an extravagant cost. He
desired to see a similar system adopted in this country, and
ho believed that it would result both in economy and
efficiency. ( H ear, hear.)
Mr. B. COCHRANE expressed his conviction that
nothing would be done to improve the present system until
things became intolerable, when Parliament might inter-
fere. With regard to the public monuments, it was most
desirable that they should be put under the control of some
responsible authority, and the metropolis saved from the
absurdity of a statue without legs or arms—(laughter)—
being erected in Leicester-square.
Sir C. WOOD denied that the changes which were
made in the original plans for Alderney, Keyham, or
Holyhead harbours had been the result of want of fore.
sight or extravagance. When first projected, steamers
were very small; but, when they assumed the proportions
which they now exhibited, the harbours in question had to
be increased in a like manner. That, and not the department
which had charge of the works, had led to the expense.
Sir F. SMITH admitted that any suggestion in regard
to public works coming from the hon. baronet the member
for Finsbury deserved the utmost attention, but he did not
believe that the plan of concentration as proposed would
secure either efficiency or economy. He advised them not
to attempt to centralise too much, or they would get into a
difficulty, for they would get men overcharged with work
they could not superintend, and men would be placed to
conduct works they could not accomplish.
Sir J. TRELAWNY supported a more efficient control
over public works.
Col. FRENCH referred to the state of Holyhead harbour.
Mr. COWPER defended the present conduct of public
works in this country, and contrasted our system with that
adopted in France. He urged that our system was the pre-
ferable for this country. He thought it was impossible to
separate the political from the permanent duties of the
First Commissioner of Works. The effect of the separation
would be to place the political part in the hands of a head
of department who would have neither the time nor the
leisure to make himself so conversant with the details of
the office as was required from a Parliamentary head who
was responsible to Parliament for his own department. It
was a mistake to suppose that the estimates were never ex-
ceeded under the French system ; on the contrary, it was
of very frequent occurrence, and must always be so where
plans were altered. Latterly we had consulted competent
judges for designs for public buildings, instead of leaving
it entirely to the First Commissioner of Works, and he in-
stanced the National Gallery, the Houses of Parliament,
and the proposed new Foreign Office, which he thought
was a very near approach to the suggestion of
the hon. member who had brought forward this subject.
The right hon. gentleman referred to the impossibility of
forming a suitable council of architects to co-operate with
his department, on account of the two great schools into
which the profession was divided, viz., the Gothic and the
classic. He deprecated the superficial criticism to which the
office had been subjected, and showed that none of the great
failures which had been pointed at had occurred since he
came into power. He had no control whatever over Leices-
ter-square, otherwise the statue in the centre would have
been long since repaired ; and it was equally true that he
was in no way responsible for what occurred in St. Paul's.
As for the fountains in Trafalgar-square, the fault lay in
their original construction ; but he had done much to im-
prove them.

Mr. LINDSAY referred to Alderney 11 abour, and as-
serted that, notwithstanftg the enormous sums expended

there, it was worthless as a harbour of refuge, and question-
able for the purposes of defence.
The subject then dropped.
THE ATTACK UPON TRINGANU.

Sir J. HAY rose to direct attention to the attack upon
Tringanu, the capital of the southern province of the king-
dom of Siam, which took place on the 12th November last,
and to move for papers. The hon. and gallant officer stated
the particulars of the outrage of which he complained, which
were shortly these : It appeared that the younger brother of
the King of Siam, whose pretensions had been favoured by
the Dutch, had taken refuge in Tringanu with the Rajah,
his uncle ; and it having been supposed that the ex-Sultan
of Lingga was concerned in a conspiracy against his brother,
and in injuring the trade between the district of Benang and
Singapore, the merchants of the latter place petitioned the
governor, Col. Kavanagh, to demand the surrender of the
ex-Sultan from the Rajah of Tringanu. Major Macpherson
was deputed to negotiate with the Rajah for the purpose.
Capt. Corbett and an English squadron were also despatched
to Tringanu. This seemed to be the usual way of proceed-
ing in the East to unite a political officer with a military or
naval one ; the former would be sure to quarrel, and, as a
matter of course, the latter would be sure to fight. Well,
Major Macpherson waited upon the Rajah, and demanded
the surrender of his nephew. The uncle asked Major Mac-
pherson whether England, at the bidding of another Power,
would give up a political refugee—whereupon Major Mac-
pherson returned to the squadron, reported that his diplo-
matic endeavours were at an end, and directed Captain
Corbett to bombard Tringanu. It was due to Captain Cor-
bett to say that he was desirous of doing the smallest pos-
sible injury to the town; but, owing to the unsteady posi•
tion of the vessels, a portion of the town was set on fire by
the shells. He could only, say that this outrage was dis-
graceful to the arms of England, and he hoped the right
hon. gentleman would lay copies of all the papers on the
table.

Sir C. WOOD said ho could not complain of the hon, and
gallant gentleman for bringing forward this subject ; at the
same time he was in difficulty on account of not having re
ceived from the Government of India an official statement
of the transactions complained of; and it would be hardly
just towards the officers implicated to pronounce an opinion
upon their conduct until all the facts were in his possession.
The origin of the interference of the Governor of Singapore
arose in this way :—There was a southern district called
Benang which was friendly to the English Government,
and between it and Singapore a considerable trade was car-
ried on. The ex-Sultan of Lingga, who had placed himself
under the protection of his uncle, the Rajah of Tringanu,
having been charged with getting up plots against his
brother, and destroying the trade between Benang and
Singapore, Col. Kavanagh at the request of the merchants
of Singapore, directed Major Macpherson to obtain redress,
and the result was the bombardment of Tringanu. He
would give the hon. and gallant officer a list of the papers;
and if he thought they were of importance, they would be
produced.

After a few words from Mr. LIDDELL and Lord NAAS,
in condemnation of our present policy in the East, the sub-
ject dropped.

RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.

Mr. BENTINCK, in calling attention to the subject of
railway accidents, said a great part of the mischief was at-
tributable to over-speed. This was the conclusion arrived
at by the committee over which he presided five years ago,
but he regretted to say that the resolutions then adopted
had never been acted on. A most inhuman argument had
been used by the President of the Board of Trade against
the interference of the house with the present excessive rate
of speed, in saying, on a former occasion that, out of many
millions of travellers, a few individuals only had been
maimed or killed. Mr. Stephenson, a manufacturer of loco-
motives, said that any person who knew as much as he did
of the effect of speed on express trains, and who was killed
when travelling thereby, ought to be buried on the cross-
roads as a confirmed lunatic. (Hear, and laughter.) The
hon. member concluded by moving that, in the opinion of
the house, it was the duty of the Government to legislate
for the better prevention of such accidents.
Mr. DUTTON supported the motion, and agreed with
his hon. friend (Mr. Bentinck) that speed was the principal
cause of railway accidents.
Mr. M. GIBSON did not well understand what his hon.
friend wished that the Government should do.

Mr. BENTINCK explained that what he desired was,
that the Board of Trade should have the power to interfere
when the rate of speed travelled on any line was considered
not consistent with safety.
Mr. M. GIBSON continued—Speed was a relative term,
and what might be a safe rate on one railway might be a
very unsafe rate on another. Speed depended on the con-
dition of the permanent way, the rolling stock, the curves,
and gradients, and he for one could not consent that the
best managed lines should be reduced to the standard of the
worst. (Hear, hear.) if interference were at all attempted, it
would be necessary to have a sliding scale of speed— (hear)—
but that he believed was a task which could not be discharged
by any Government department. The best security for the
public lay in the damages awarded by juries for negligent or
reckless management ; but, however that might be, it was
satisfactory to know that railway accidents were yearly de-
creasing. In 1861 there were 56 accidentP, attended with 46
deaths and 781 injuries; and in 1862, 52 accidents, with 24
deaths and 537 injuries. But while in the former year the
number of passengers was 173,000,000, in the latter they
amounted to 183,000,000. In regard to the present year the
returns were not completed, but during its first half there had
been only 16 accidents, attended with four deaths and 165
in-
juries,which showed a considerable decrease as compared with
preceding years. Speed had not been altogether the cause of
accidents, many of them having arisen from collision, the ne-
gligence of the railway servants, and a want of sufficient
break power. It was difficult to guard against negligence and
no legislation could prevent it more efficaciously than by
the present law, which made companies pecuniarily respon-
sible. The best for the public was to leave the law as it at
present stands, leaving it to the directors of railways to
transport travellers from point to point in the best and
safest manner, subject to their present responsibilities.
Mr. HODSON said railway directors would be glad to
throw their responsibility on some Government department.
Railway directors were most anxious to ensure safety to
passengers, but often accidents occurred which were beyond
their control. Nine-tenths of the accidents occurred from
want of punctuality of the trains, and not from speed. He
undertook to say that, where the rolling stock and perma•
nent way were in good condition, and the directors and of
cials did their duty, accidents were extremely infrequent,
Mr. H. LEWIS differed in opinion from the hon. mem-
ber that the frequency of accidents arose from unpunctua-
lity from one terminus to another. He believed that less
accidents arose from fast trains, because more attention was
paid to them. He admitted very many accidents occurred
from the loss of time at intermediate stations, owing to
their having to make up those losses by spasmodic efforts
at increased epeed. He considered the object of the motion
was not to relieve, but increase the responsibility of rail-
, way directors. The Government inquiries into accidents
several hours after every trace bad been removed was a
farce, for it was ridiculous to imagine that railway servants
would convict themselves of negligence. To save acci•
dents, railway directors must be made to feel in their
pockets for unpunctualtty at intermediate stations.
After some remarks from Mr. CONINGHAM and Mr.
KINNAIRD,
The motion was withdrawn.
THE UNION MERCANTILE COMPANY OF