The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Jczr 25.
The LCRD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'Clock.
The Timber Ships Bill passed through a Committee.
The Assessed Taxes Composition Bill passed through a
Committee.
The Bishop of E X E TE R presented a variety of petitions
against Hindoo idolatry ; also a number of petitions against
the Church Discipline Bill. He itsd in all presented similar
petitions on this subject from 22 dioceses, and there had
not be ore preserved on the other side. The Right Rev.
Prelate then presented several petitions against renewing
the Powers of the Poor-law Commissioners for another
year. He should not be in the House when the Bill on
this subject was brought to their Lordships, but if
he were, he should give his cordial support to those
Noble Lords who should oppose the renewal of
the Bill. And he should do so principally on ac-
count of the bastardy clause. He felt perfectly per-
suaded that ii,fanticide had been greatly and most distiess-
inely increased by this clause. He also objected exceed-
ingly to sep, rating husbands and wives by the Poor-law
Guardians in poor-houses. The workhouses were
like, and were intentionally made to look like,
prisons. One of the under Poor-law Commissioners
had reported that this had a salutary effect, which was
deeply to be regretted. Then, again, the poor were de-
prived, in a great degree, of spiritual assistance on the
Sabbath. He had heard from high authority that one of
the causes of the disturbances at Birmingham arose from
a dissatisfaction' wilt the Poor-laws. Whether that was
so or not, this was clear, that if it were so the source
of dissatisfaction ought to be scurried as speedily as pos
sible.

The R;ght Rev. PRELATE wished to know from the
Noble Viscount if it would be convenient for him to name
Monday next for the second reading of the Ecclesiastical
Preferments Bill, which had now been on their Lordships'
table for a week.
Lord MELBOURNE had no objection to say that he
should move the second reading on Monday.
The Marquis of DO WNSIIIR E called the attention
of the HouAe to what be considered to be a subject well
deserving of notice. It appeared from a newspaper he had
in his hand, that the ass-z'_s for the county of Longflrd,
took place on the 13th of th s mcnth. The asßize going Judge
was the Lord Cbie•f justice of the Common Pleas of Ireland.
It appeared from the speech of the Learned Judge on that
occasion that he found prisoners had be, n detained in
gaol there from October 1838, and, according to all the
information he could get, merely because a Mr. Barnes, a
Stipendiary Magistrate, had thought fit to commit them as
h.. said, for re-examination. This was greatly against the
liberty of the subject. The Learned Judge had expressed
himself greatly against such a course of proceed►ng, and
he (the Noble Marquis) certainly thought it a suhje t
requiring investigat►on by the Governsnent.—( Hear,
hear.) He wished to know whether the Noble Vis-
count had heard officially of this conduct, and if he
had, if it was his duty to institute an inquiry in reference
to it.

Lord MELBOURNE said be had received no official
Information on the subject, but that since he had had an
interview with the Noble Marquis opposite, he had directed
an inquiry to take place.
Lord LURGAN wished to know if the Noble Marquis
was aware vaether or not the Learned Judge had dis.
charged those men at the close of the assizes?
The Marquis of DO WNSHIRE could not give his
Noble Friend any information upon the question he had
put to him.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH having said a few
words, the subject was dropped.
Lord W ARNC L I FFE presented repetition from the
borough of Doncaster on the subject of the appointment
of Borough Magistrates. From this petition it appeared to
the Noble Lord that the appointment of the Iltrough
Magistrates by Lord J. Russell was made upon political
feeling.
Lord MELBOURNE said that the petitioners did
not say so, nor did that appear from the petition.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented two
petitions, one from the Society for Promoting Christian
Knowledge, which embraced a majority of the clergy of
England, and the other from a Reverend Prelate of great
eminence, now presiding over Australia, upon the subject
of the interests of the Established Church now in the
colonies. The petitioners set forth at length the darkened
religious state of the colonies. In some parts, for dis-
tances of fifty or sixty miles, there was not a single place
of religious worship; and especially in parts where convicts
were sent to, the state of wickedness that was described by
the petitioners was almost too shocking to read. The
Right Rev. Prelate was supplied with a paper from the
Society, from which one of the petitions came, and from
which it appeared that 300 more clergymen were required
for the colon es. This Society itself contributed not less
than between 30.0001. and 40,0001. a year to the support
of the Church there ; and the petitioners, in urgent
terms, peinted out the necessity of additional supplies being
granted from other quarters. The petition from Austra
ha in p irticular pra3e.l that no Act night be pass-d
relatinis to Australia without a due iegard to the intere,ts
of the Church there. There was the best feeling prevail-
ing there towards the Church. There was no objection
to an E-tsblished Church there, though there was a great
number, both of Dissenters and Roman Catholics there.
They subscribed largely towards churches. and they ought
to be assisted. It was not only the duty of the Legislature
to protect the property in the colonies that was devoted
to its support, but to assist its usefulness in every possible
way. He would suggest that some establishment should
be formed for the superintendence of the Church in the
colonies, so that their Lordships might at all times be
able to a,c-rtain the real state and the wants of that
Cnure'n. In moving that these petitions do lie on the
table the Right Rev. Prelate at the same time moved fur
certain IN turns relative to the Church iu-the colonies.
The Marquis of NORMANBY agreed in much that
had fallen from the Most Rev. Prelate - and be could
assure him that he should give him all the papers that he
(Noble Marquis) could think would bear at all on the
subject, cr be of any use to the Most. Rev. Prelate.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY would assure
their Lordships that on every occasion on which he had
to meet the Noble Marquis, he had been received with the
utmost courtesy, and found the Noble Marquis ever ready
to give him all the assistance in his power.
The Bishop of LONDON was not dire whether he
accurately understood an observation that fell from the
Nubie Alai quis. If the Noble Marquis meant to say that
the Legislature was bound to meet the demands of the
people in the Colonies in reference to the support of the
Church there, be must dispute that principle. If on the
other hand he meant to say it was bound to meet the
wants of the people there, then that would be an
accurate principle, because when the number of convicts
was considered that were sent to Australia, it was not to be
considered that the calls for Church support would be very
great.

The Earl of ABERDEEN presented petitions from
Glasgow, Dumbarton, and other places in Scotland, pray-
ing for Church extension there. The Noble Earl had
presented petitions from upwards of 300 parishes in Scot.
land to the same effect.
The Marquis of NORMANBY laid on the table a
Return of Ecclesiastical Establishments in the Colonies.
HILL COOLIES.
The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to advert to a
subject that had been mentioned a night or two ago, in
consequence of its having appeared elsewhere, that he
had been misunderstood. In answering a question put to
him by the Noble Earl opposite (Lord Ellenbo-
rough) he was represented to have said that he
had not received an official report of a subject reported in
the newspapers. In justice to Governor Light, be should
be sorry to have it understood that he bad said he had not
received an official report on the subject. On the coa-
trary, he had received art official report, and in conse.
quence of that his attention had been particularly called
to the matter. The report of General Light stated, that
the condition of those unfortunate individuals was riot so
bad as had been represented. There were two places at
which the Hill Coolies were, and though their condition re-
quired attention, yet that condition was not quite so un-
favourable as had been represented. He should lay on the
table to-morrow all the papers that had yet been received
on the sujef-t.
Lord BROUGHAM confessed he had not understood
the Noble Marquis the other night, nor did he
understand him now. Did the Noble Marquis mean
to say that Governor Light's representation was that the
condition of the Hill Coolies was not so bad as that of the
other Negroes, because if he did, perhaps that might be
some solace.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said that Governor
Light stared there were instances of neglect and cruelty on
the two estates on which the Hill Coolies were, but that
the general treatment of them, as to their food and lodg-
ing, was not so bad as had been represented.
Lord ELL ENBORO UGH did not think that this ca-
lamity would have happened if the transit of those indi-
viduals had been properly attended to; and he should hope
that. toe Noble Marquis's inquiry would be extended to the
conduct of the persona in whose custody they were.
COPYHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM gave notice that be should, on
Tuesday next, move the second reading of the Copyhold
Enfranchisemeot Bill, which was a very important Bill,
and to which his objection as to time did not apply, as it
was riot a Government Bill.
Here some Noble Lord made an observation from the
Treasury Bench which was not heard.
Lord BROUGHAM—If the Government choose to
move it, let them. It's not my Bill—it's not theirs—it
comes from the Real Property Commissioners. I wash my
hands or it now, and they shall do it.
The NOBLE and LEARNED LORD wished to ask the
Noble Viscount whether there was any truth in the report
'hat was circulated to. day of a war between the Porte and
Egj pt ? It was reported that there was an utter destruc-
tion ache Ottoman army
Lord MELBOURNE, who spoke in a very low tone,
was un.lerstuod to say, by the report which had reached
Pork, by way of Marseilles, there had been an engage-
ment, sod that there had been a discomfiture of the Otto-
man arm'

Lord BROUGHAM—:Discomfiture There bag been
a total destruction of the Ottornau army, according to the
Paris account.

wishedtoknowgowhoen scit
therith was
theLionrtd,HLti,YmNoDi the RNSolb'le Viscount to
the
Copybold Enfranchisement Rill this session or not ?
Lord MELBOURNE said he should consider of that.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)
LL.
On the Order of the DBI I) beirg read for their Lnrdships
resolving themselves into Committee on the Irish Municipal
Corpnralioris Bill.
Lord Fl ZGERALD pose of movie and VESCI rose for the pur-
g th it be an to the Committe
tt) remove the to,snat instruction
of Galway from Schedule A to Sche-
dule B He had the other evening presented a pe-
titicn from the town of Galway, agreed to at a public
meeting with but one dissentient voice, and signed by all
the respectable inhabitants of that town, with:ut distinc-
tion of religion or polities, praying that the House would
be pleased to amend the Bill, either by altering the boun-
daries of the town of Galway, as fixed by that Bill, or by

The motion for the instruction to the Committee was thee
put and agreed to without a division.
Lord L YNDHUR ST said that as he meant to propose
several amendments, he would, as he did last year, briefl.
state the nature ami scope of what be meant to substitute
for the present provisions. First, however; he would refer
to the observations made the other night by his Neblt
and Learned Friend opposite (Lord Brougham), as to the
delay which had taken place in bringing up Bills to tha.
House from the other House. He had looked at the con-
duct of the other House regarding the present Bill, and
his cxerrenation di-closed so much negligence on the p ,rt
of the Government, and so little attention towards thei
Lordships, that he must give the details of the case. As
his Noble and Learned Friend bad said, this Bill was
mentioned on the first day of the Session, in the Speech
from the Throne, as one deeply affecting the interests o'
Irelend. From this one would suppose that the Bill had
been made ready to lay on the table of the other House or,
the first day of the Session, especially as it was a seagull
which hei been three or four years under the considera-
tion of Government. Ho.vever. the Bill was not laid
ou the table of the other House until the 19th of
February. The Bill was not read a second time
until the 8,1) of March. Then Ministers named the 221
for the discussion. But the Easter vacation was next
pass, d over, and the discussion was again fixed for the
15th of April. Thus nearly three months were suffered
to elapse without taking one substantial step. Well, the
15th of April came on, and the debate was postponed tilt
the 18th, and again until the 19th. Meanwhile the ill,
which was entirely a Government measure, for wh
ich,and
for the delay, her Majesty's Ministers were entirely re-
sponsible, had received thirty-four original clauses. The
Bill, therefore, could not be ready for Parliament on the
19 ft of April, and the discussion was once more postponed
until the 3d of May. On the 3d of May the amend-
ments were not printed.—( firer, hear.) The dis-
cussion was therefore put off until the 10th, but
On
It was the 10th the amendments were not printed.
again put off until the 17th; but on the 17th
May the amendments were not printed. The discussion was
once more put off until the 31st May, but the amendments
were not pi inted even then.—( Loud laughter.) The dis.
cussien was finally fixed for the 7th of June, and on the
6th the printed Bill was circulated amongst the Member,
of the other House. As it would be impossible
to read the Bill in that short interval, the dis
cussion was once more put off until the 21st of
Jute, and from that time to the 28th, for no further
reason that he could perceive. It was a singular circum-
stance that a few days before the 28th of June her Mejes-
ty's Ministers gave an intimation that they really did mean
that the Bill should be discussed on that day. Very
shortly before a straege coincidence with this intimation
appeareel in the organ of an individual of great influence,
who was said to govern Ireland through the agency of he,
Majesty's ;Ministers.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) That
was an article in the Pilot newspaper of the 21st of. June.
The article said—, Nearly five months of the Session
have now passed, and during that time no one measure of
public benefit has been carried." That was introductory.
—( Laughter.) It continued—" The people, the well
wishers of Government, begin anxiously to ask what has
become of the Irish Municipal Bill? It would be shock-
tog in the extreme to have the existence of the condemned
Tory Corporations prolonged another year." This article
appeared in the Dublin Pilot, on Friday, the 21st of June ;
it arrived in London on the next Monday, and on the en-
suing Tuesday or Wednesday the intimation was given
that her Majesty's Ministers did really intend to proceed
with the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Many persons, therefore,
had connected the Ministerral intimation with the editoriel
paragraph. The Bill went into Committee, and a few
clauses were considered. It was again considered in Com-
mittee on the 4th of July, and then 250 clauses were dis.
posed 'of in four or five hours, though three divisions took
place within that time, and although the Bill was of the
most intricate and important character. Whether the
Government had really intended to abolish " these Tory
grievances" or not, as had been questioned, it was evident
that a greater degree of inattention, supineness, and negli-
gence had never been exhibited on any former occasion
towards their Lordships by any former Ministry.—( Hear.)
As to tile measure itself he would remind their Lordships
that the Tory, or Protestant Corporations in Ireland,
were established to maintain the Protestant interests in
that country.—(Cheers.) He would admit that many
abuses may have crept into them, and he was not unwilling
that those institutions should cease if something neutral
could be established instead. But that was a vain hope.
If this Bill were to pass, such was the state of religion
and politics in Ireland, he would say, that except the
Northern province of Ireland, every populous town would
have a Roman Catholic and Radical Mayor—a Roman
Catholic and Radical Town Council, and Roman Catho-
lic and Radical Magistrates.—( Cheers.) And when
they considered that the police of that country became
more Catholic every day, and when they considered also
the state of the large towns in Ireland, they must admit
that were any convulsion to take place the most dreadful
consequences would fall on the Protestant inhabitants.
The Bill would, in fact, root out Protestantism from a
great part of Ireland. To borrow the words of the No-
blo Viscount, "the Bill would inflict a heavy blow and a
great discouragement on the Protestant Church, and
the Protestant inhabitants of that 'country."—(Hear.)
He (Lord . Lyndhurst) had regarded, as connected
with this measure, the elections for Guardians
of the Poor for Ireland, and he found that
in most cases the lists were adopted under the
d.c ation of the Catholic priesthood. Therefore from the
result of those elections, compared with that of the present
Bill, be apprehended the most disastrous results. After
what they had just seen iu the heart of this island, could
they look with confidence on corporations in Ireland with
Radical Town Councillors, and Radical Magistrates ?
( Cheers.) He thought they were bound to vote fur the
the second reading of the Bill, but if his amendments
should not be adopted in Committee, he would vote
against the third reading. As for his amendments they
were net ro extensive as those of last Session, because
many of his former suggestions had been adopted in the
other House. The first amendment would be the most
meterial and vital. It proposed that the qualification for
a person to he eligible for a burgess should be the oc-
cupation of a house worth 101. bona fide value, according to
the veluation of the Poor Law Commissioners, and on the
principle of the Revising Barristers in this country, who
in the 10/. qualification included in the value of such an
occupation the landlord s repairs, and the insurance paid
by the landlord. To those should be added the value of
the occupation in Ireland. He objected to the provision
that the pecuniary qual.fication should be only for three
years. Let the qualification be permanent or let the alters-
tion only take place after they should have experience of
the measure. He trusted they would reject this part of
the Bill. The next amendment related to the appoint-
ment of Sheriffs. He contended that instead of having the
Sheriffs of cities and counties of cities and towns in Ire-
land, appointed by the recommendation of three candidates
each time by the Town Council to the Lord Lieutenant,
the appointment should be conducted as it was in the coun-
ties, where, through the inquiry conducted by that Com-
mittee of their Lordships' House, which he (Lord L.) had
moved for, they were now chosen according to the old
constitutional mode of being recommended by the Judges
to the Lord Lieutenant. He was glad that Sheriffs had
been appointed so last year under the government of the
Noble Marquis oppo,ite. He approved of the Charity
should
He proposed that the Dublin Blue Coat

Lord L YNDHURST proposed an amendment, to the
effect that the qualification should be a 101. one.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that the question raised
by the Noble Lord as to the 101. qualification, was one of
the most important that could be raised regarding this Bill.
The qualification was much lower in this country, and Ire-
land was a poorer country than this, and he must say that
it was a most monstrous absurdity to propose the higher
qualification for the poorer country, independently of its
being a gross act of injustice. Why did the Noble Lords
opposite propose this alteration ? Why not adopt the
more manly course and oppose the Bill at once, than run
the risk of defeating it in this manner. This was one
of the main clauses of the Bill, and he would not take
upon himself to say what might be the consequence of
their Lordships' decision. If they really wished the settle.
ment of this question, let them not come to a resolution
which would impede its success. Their Lordships would,
doubtless, adopt the course which they felt right, but he
trusted they would adopt the course most likely to bring
this question to an amicable conclusion.
1
The Duke of WELLINGTON had formerly sup-
ported a measure fur the abolition of all corporations
in Ireland, because they were exclusively Protestant.
He was now desirous of having the elective prineipleapplied to
these Corporations, but in such a manner as should make the
existence of these corporations be for the benefit of all classes,
i and for the protection of persons and property. He believed
the qualification proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend
was the one most likely to effect this object, and therefore he
should support it. Noble Lords on that side the House were,
according to the insinuations of the Noble Viscount, actuated
by unworthy motives in their opposition to this clause. He re-
pudiated such a charge. They were actuated only by worthy
motives--they had no objects to attain in dealing with this'Bill
but worthy objects. The Noble Viscount insinuated
that their Lordships did not mean to carry this Bill.
It bad been only under' their Lordships' consideration
for a few days, so short a time as to render it impossible to
discuss the subject except in this cursory manner. It was
those who had had the matter under their consideration during
the whole summer, and who, knowing the opinion of their
Lordships and of the other House of Parliament, had not
brought forward such a measure as would meet the desires of
both Houses, who really wished not to carry the measure.—
(Cheers. )
divSidterdan—gers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
Contents
Non-Contents ' 6O
Majority Several
verbalin a
ifavournendomf
eLnotrsd
iLny nodt bh ue
rr s
et
posed by Lord LYNDH URST. and agreed to without a division.
1 sa
ua re se 'si vdemr ee nt
ht then 4p3e a .
The Duke of WELLINGTON proposed the introduction
of a clause enacting, that where the Corporation of any town
propose to appoint any officer other than those usually ap.
pointed in any borough, such appointment should not take place
until a statement in writing should have been transmitted to
the Lord Lieutenant, stating the nature of the office, the reasons
for the appointment, and the salary proposed ; and that such
appointment should not take place until a warrant, under the
hand of the Lord Lieutenant, had been issued authorizing such
appointment.
Agreed to. •
Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI, proposed an amend-
ment consequential upon the instruction he had moved, which
was agreed to.

The House then resumed, the Bill with the amendments
was ordered to be printed, and the Report to be brought up
on Monday.
CHURCH DISCIPLINE BILL.
The Bishop of EXETER asked if it was intended to proceed
with the third reading of this Bill to-night.—( Cries from all
parts of the House "Go on, go on.") Then he should move
that the House do now adjourn, the Bill to be suffered to pass
through Cnmmittes without discussion, on the understanding
that it should have a full discussion on the third reading, which
he considered it could not have at this hour, and there!ore he I