The Sun.
London, England, 1801-03-26 00:00:00

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wish to express, for he pretended to no such phi-
losophy as that, which led to the species 'of indif_
femme of the opinion of others which some persons
chased to aired, nor was he indifferent to the cir:
cumstances of this Country ;, nor to the opini'on
which the Public might entertain of tilt share, the
too large share lie had had in them : On the con-
trary, he confessed, that these topics occupied hi,.

attention much—for events had -happened, which,
disappointed his warmest wishes, and fruStrared the
most favourite hopes of his heart ; and he could
have desired to have continued, to pursue the
objetts of such hopes and wishes to the end ot
r that struggle, which he had worked for with an_
xiety and care. There was never a period- in his
life, in which these topics were indifferent to him.
Much less could he he indifferent to the good opi-
alion of those who had been induced on so many
occasions to shew so much confidence in him—a
. confidence, however, which lied always been con-
stitution Ally given, and to which he begged leave
to say, every Servant of the Crown ;was entitled,
until forfeited by his conduit. He was not in..
different either to the many marked instances
he had observed of the personal confidence in
him, upon various occasions, and which lie could
not flatter himself with, having merited=--Much,
however, as he felt these sentiments, there were
others which he felt still more strongly ; and
therefore he was under the necessity of samit-
ting some thoughts upon the subjeCi before the
House. This was not a Question solely applicable
to himself or to his Colleagues, for if it were, how-
ever dear the topics of such a Case might be to him,
Ile should have been induced to give the House but
little trouble on that account.—No, this was a
Question which involved the Honour of that House,
and Charmer of the Nation ; the Honour of the
one, and the, Constitutional Freedom of the other.
'!'his Motion, taken in that view of the subject, put
to the House this Ouestion :—Whether it was pre.
rated co retraa all it had declared and done for
the last nine most eventful years, and had changed
it's mind on the nature of that Struggle in which
we had for that period been engaged, and in
-which, not only so large a majority of that
House had 'been so firm, but, as he had on a
former occasion Wien the liberty of express-
ing it, a greater Majority of the People had sup-
ported uniformly and steadily, and which they
had considered- as•nothipg less than a Contest for
Independence with the Enemy 'abroad, and for a
Constitutional safety with the Enemy at home ?
Ile believeil, therefore, that the House would con-
ceive its Honour to be -implicated in the Question
now before it; as well as the Honour, and in a con.
siderable degree, the Safety of this Country. •On
these points, the decision of the House, and the
judgment (lithe Public had been uniform and steady
~1f ever the moment'should arrive, in which, un-
der whatever mask, the attempt was made to induce
the House to forget the principles by which it had
been so long gttided—if ever the moment should ;r-
-rive, in which the principles of those who had by
their. arguments supported the Enemy-- --if ever the
mometn•should arrive, when the Counsels of those
who had' so often embarrassed our, proceedings, and-
checked our 'efforts—Counsels • which to. the
surrender of our Independence and ConstitutiOnal
Freedom, instead of the Counsels which tended to
the preservation of both—if ever the moment
should arrive, when the House, being told they
should tread back its steps to avoid a general havoc
over all Europe, instead of.pursuing such steps uni-
fotmly and ,va-dily, and the more the difficulty, the
firmer--it ever -the moment should arrive, when
that House would listen to and follow such Coun,
sell, he should then indeed begin to think that there
was some ground fur the prediCtion which had been
utter, d, of the downfat-of this Empire ; but, thank
God ! there was no appearance. of any such down-
neeanse there was isdprobaHility that the advice
anti counsel he had just alluded to, was to be taken
as a remedy for any evil which was alledged to affliet
us; he therefore spoke with less apprehension ofdan.
ger than he should do if these things were doubtful,
. u on, e Motion of the Honourable Gentleman, and
with the less anxiety as to many parts of that Gen_
sleman's Speech, when he refleded on the manner
in which it had been answered by his Right Hon.
'Friend ; indeed he thought he perceived something
which conveyed an idea, that the Hon. Gentlemen
opposte to him did not entertain any very sanguine
hope they would be able to prevail on the House to
assent to the Motion now before it; they did not seem
to think they had laid before it materials to call upon
it to retract all it had hitherto asserted, or reverse
all it had hitherto done in the course of the present
War. This consideration, therefore, supposing lie
felt no other, would have induced him to remain
silent on this Debate ; but he felt a mixed sensation,
from what had fallen from an lion. Gentleman and
Noble Lord, with whom he had the honour or
beitig connate(' in kindred, as he had hitherto in
political sentiments., He felt gratefully for the un_
merited expressionsof good opinion which his Noble
Kinsman, and those with whom he was most im-
mediately conneetcd,,had direded towards him ; but
he mast confess, that he, should have been better
pleased, both as a Public Man, and a private In-
dividuai, it he' had beard sentiments that were less
favourab!., to himielf; and more favourable to others,:
who were now in His Majesty's service ; and if he
felt any other than such wishes, he apprehended he
sho:,!ti have been unworthy of the good opinion
which the Noble Lord had been pleased en express of
him ; anti he could not help saying, that those who,
like the Noble Lord, were to vote for this Motion,
were,Wi t hoot in tendin4 it, pursuing% c,ouise the most
unfair, (he would explain distinctly what he said) the
most unkind, towards those to whom they professed
friend•hip, they possibly could pursue, and at the
same timea course that would be the most mischievous
they could pursue with regard to the interests of the
Public. Now as to the word unfair, which he per_
ceived had an effett on some Gentlemen on the
other side which he did not inL2nd to produce, he
meant nothing uncivil to these Gentlemen ; but the
110,1se should judge whether his ideas were just or
.not, '1 here were two sets of Gentlemen who were
desired to vote on precisely the same question, on,
two ground, that were not only ductal, but op_
pl,ite, Now, that two opposite opinions might
e persons concur in one and th.e same vote, was
Linos which miZbt pot only ha pent but which

might ne unavoi,

llaDle ; DU? tIIIS was nor one OT TIIC

cases in which that could happen. But when the
contest was upon points like this now before the
House, that was impossible. Here the case was
very unfsirly put for the Motion. One set
of Gentlemen pressed this Motion because cer-
tain. individuals were now out of office, they
thinking that was not punishment enough for them.
Others might think it no punishment at all. Others
lioe!ht they ought. to be punished still further. He
was not complaining of thrift who were even of this
last opinion, but what he thought himself entitled
to complain of was this, that all those grounds.
'.c hick were so distina and separate from one ano.
ther, should be made to blend together and form a
mass, whereon to collea votes for the present Mo-
rion. He thought he had some reason to complain,
that his opponent was to have the benefit of the:
votes of some of the friends of the late Admini.
titration, while he who was one of such Admi-
nistratioro• had only the benefit of a Speech from
his Friends ; so that his Noble Relation expressed
in him the fullest confidence, and yet pursued
• him to condemnation, because he did not chuse.to
confide in those of His Majesty's Servants who
were no.v in office.—ln the next place, he hoped he
might be permitted to observe, that there was no
point which had been more disputed in that House,
(although the thing .itself never appeared to him to
he difficult) than that of confidence in His Majesty's
Ministers.—But the case was not to stop there.—
The Question of Confidence had nothing about it
that was new.—lt attended the outset of his •Admi_
nistration, and it had not deserted the close of it.
In the outset of his Administration, he understood
it to be held by some people, that no person was '
entitled to common and ordinary confidence, until
he had given proof of his having deserved it. It
never could be carried in substance to the length it
here went in the letter, for it was impossible to say
that a man should not have any confidence in a situ-
ation, because it was new to him, because that must
be made applicable to every human creature ; when-
ever he entered at first upon, any employment, he
muscat some time or other be new in his employment,
it was not therefore, at that time, judged that he
should have no confidence personally, for certainly
that was not claimed for him ; but it was said, that as
he carne into Administration with sentiments opposite
to those which bad been held by those who preceded
him in Office, and had enjoyed the confidence of the
House, he meant the sentiments'of the Hon. Gentle-
man opposite to him (Mr.. Fox), and the Question .
was then, whether he who was then said to hold
sentiments different from those which-were said to
have had the confidence of the Ilouse, should have
any of that confidence placed in him, that was 'the
way in which the point was put then; but the
way in which it was put , now, was absolutely
whimsical—for it was now stated, 4‘ 1-lere is -a
Ministry who have had the full coOfiderice .of
the House of Commons." Words which he
did not presume to utter, for himself,—but
which, for the purposes of this Debate, were ut-
tered by others for him, -and Gentlemen had said,
that within a few hoots of his departure, there was
an
,appearance of stability in
_His Majesty's Go.
Vernrtient---But what. was the complaint..noW? Not
that the l'Crsons who now claimed the support of
the House, : differed from those who had received
that support, as he was stated to have done In
1783—how correalyt that was stated was another
questionbut that was not the case now, the, reverse
of it ; for the case now was, that those who now
claimed the confidence of the House, ought not to
have it, because they profess the same principles as
those who have so long possessed that confidence. •
The reason for this was a very curious one, it was
stated by certain Gentlemen to be that of their not
knowing why His Majesty's late Ministers had re.
tired :--so that confidence was to be withheld from
His Majesty's . present Servants, before Gentle. '
men knew why their Predecessors went out of

office, and bathe the new ones are known,—
He did not see why Gentlemen were to with-hold
their Confidence from His Majesty's present Mi-
nisters because they did not know" why their
Predecessors, retired ; he • did not know why Gen-
tlemen wanted any more information on that sub-
jed than they possessed already. They knew
almost all they should know, and he believed all
they would know upon.that subjea ; but here the
cause of complaint was, that certain Gentlemen,
for a cause which themselves professed to he
unable to explain, the Public were to be
deprived of the services of those who had been
chosen by the Crown, merely because there was,
about the retirement of their Predecessors, some-
thing which these Gentlemen said they did not
understand ; and because the House did not know
how the New Ministers would ad.—He understood
that they were persons who would a& on their own
judgment,. as they ought to do in each particular,
hut that their general principles are the same ; and
then it came to this—that the Supporters of the
present Motion said the House ought to withhold
its confidence from the present Ministers, not
because they are the reverse, but because. they
are the same in principle with those in whom
the House bad confided. —But he would not
stop here. If the House considered the ppints
On which it usually afforded its confidence, it would
find every reason, for affording it to the present Mi-
nisters. It was said that Ministers should be men

known to the House of Commons before the House
confided in them. Be it so.—That could not be

made applicable to the situation in which they
were at any time to be appointed, because that

would go to the exclusion ot confidence in any
man whenever he came into a new situation.--

There could be no experience of him in that situa.
tion until he was tried. But when persons were
tried in one situation, and had acquitted themselves
well, the rule was to give them credit they would
do so in any other situation, until proof of something
to the contrary appeared.—lf this was not corral

doctrine, he was very much deceived. He sho-uld
like to know on what principle it was that the:pro-
priety of supporting them should be questioned until
they had shown by their actions that they aid not
deserve to be supported. Were these Gentlemen.
called to a situation that was new to them ? Yes -
it was so ; but were they new to the Public ? Not:
so, for they were not only not new to the HQUSC.and
the Public, but they were
,not new to the love and,
esteem of the House and the rkgic, )44 01.4

I rOM SUffIC

,erir ex

'perience as to their principles
and talents.—One of them was a Gentleman
who was admired in private as well as re_
spewed and esteemed in public, who hatt been
long chosen into the situation of the first Com.
moner in this Country, and had lately been unani-
mously re.eleded to that 'high station. Was this
the Person of whom the House of Commons were to
say, they would not confide in him, because at a
moment of difficulty, dissembled by none, bu't ex.
aggeiated by some persons, who love dwelling on
any topic which gave any thing of a gloom to our
affairs, he quitted a situation of the highest autho.
rity a Representative of the People can possess, for
one of greater trouble and perplexity, and at a ma-
ment when Hon. Gentlemen were holding out the
'difficulties of the situation to be insuperable ? To re-
fuseConfidenee to such a person in such a situation,
appeared to him to be repugnant to common sense
and to common justice, and he could not help saying,
thathe was astonished at his Noble Friend and the
Honourable Baronet, for' what he had heard this
night from them on some parts of this subjea.—
Again he would say, that if he saw a Noble Lord
(Lord HAWKESBVkY) called to the situation Of a
Secretary of State, he was ready to ask, without
the fear of receiving -any answer that would disap-
point him, whether Gentlemen on the other side
knew any man who was superior to that Noble
Lord, who for the last ten years had experience
of State affairs, and who had given more proof of
steady attention to public business ; of a betiertuf-
dersia nding, of more information ; who, from all the
habits of his life, from hereditary habits of atten-
tion to business, of perseverance, and- of all those
qualities which go to qualify a man. for great
affairs—He was ready to ask Gentlemen oti the
other side, he Said, if they knew any one 'among
themselves who was superior to his Noble Friend ?
Let 'them give him the answer. He should like to
take the opinions of the different individuals on the
other side, if it were not a painful thing to put it
to their modesty, whether any one among them, ex_
cept one whose attendance was of .late rare, whose
transcendant talents indeed made him an exception
to almost any rule; but whose conduit was what
Ought, generally speaking, to be an exception
also,' to the rules which ought to guide the affairs of
this Country, and which conduel had been at variance
in some respefts from that of almost every other
public man, and which, if followed, must have been
highly injurious to the true interest Of this Conn-
try—He repeated it, he knew of no one on the
opposite side of the House except the Honourable
Gentleman he had alluded to, whose 'experience
was very great, as his talents were transcendant,
who was more than equal to his Noble Friend in
capacity. for business. He did not mean to offer
any incivility to Gentlemen on the other side, or
any one Of them ; but he did not think that he had
offered either of them any disparagement whatever,
when he said, that neither of them was more than
equal to his Noble Friend. Was it necessary for
him to say,retic:i of the faculties and fitness in every
particular of a certain Noble Lord, who was like-,
ly soon to have the custody of the Great Seal ? He
was,, surely, not new to this Country, whose cha,
ratter for legal. knowledge, fur integrity; and for ss
cluster of those qualities which fit him for that-high
office,' had' been, long acknowledged. There was no
pledge necessary on behalf of such a charafter. Of
other individuals of the new Administration, he could
say much, 'but if he were to indulge his feelings
upon this topic.he should be in danger of wearying
the House. There was, however, one charaaer of
whom he could not forbear speaking—Lt would
occur to the House, that it was not an easy thing
to supply the place of the late First Lord of the Aa-
miralty, Earl SPENCER; and, yet he should think,
that the name of Earl ST. VINCENT would appear in
a satisfaftory light to the House even as the suc-
cessor of the Noble Earl, or of any other man
known to this Country; and that the more espe-
cially in a period of War, whiCh called for all
the exertion of the Executive Government—Was
this appointment not such as to support the hope of
this Country, that it would come soon to the aer-
mination of a Contest which we had conduaed near to
conclusion--[" Hear ! Hear from; the other side)
--which —which he trusted we had concluded near to 'a con-
clusion. But whether the Contest was yet. to be
long or short, until the objeft of it-be secured, he
trusted the spirit ,of the Country Would not be im-
'paired, nor 'in any degree slackened, butt exerted
with vigour towards bringing it. to a termination ;
or if we were still to struggle with continued' diffi-
cultieS, he would ask, was not the name of that
Noble Earl a shield and bulwark to the Nation ? He
would therefore say; that Gentlemen spoke with but
refleelion, or even consideration, when they
said the present Administration was not entitled to
the confidence of that House, or of the Public ; he
meant, ofcourse no more than a Constitutional Con-
fidence. All he contended for was, that unless some
good reason were assigned to the contrary, the House
was hound by the best principles of Policy, as well as-
hy the true spirit of the Constitution of this Country,
to wait to see the conduit of the Ministers of the
Crown, before they would withhold their confidence:
On this subjea of confidence, let not Geotlemen sup-
pose, that a Committee on the State of the Nation
could be of the least use, because nothing that could •
be there disclosed, could give the Houie more inform-
ation than the House possessed already on that mat.
ter ; nor could any thing be done in that Committee,
that could alter the present posture of the Executive
Government, unless the Committee should pass a
Resolution to withdraw its confidence front the
present Ministers of the Crown, and to give it to
their opponent (Mr. Fox) and his friends, in order
to make them successors to them, which wo;ld• be
a pretty strong measure, and border on •an .in-
croachment on the . Prerogative, besides that of in. •
troducing principles the very reverse of those ,
wliich had hitherto invariably- had the sinftion of
Parliament. He did not- mean to use any sapprO. •
.brious epithets towards Gentlemen cm the other
side, but he certainly did not say more than was
.warranted --by fad,' when. -he said, • that- by the
constant cdtirse -of • determination- OE- Parliament,
the • principles of these Gentlemen-had been re-
probated:. Having said. -thisi :he. would now
utter' a Word or tap for his Colleignes, and for
himselfaaaaWitli regarLl to their quitting their Of-
fices, hetlichtiOt;see 'any mystery -about. that Kis-
jeft, 'and be thoa&ht he wets entitled to rely on the

entle
ing the sincerity of their declarations on the occa.
sion. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke first, was
pleased to say, he would allow that an opinion on a
,public measure of importance which a Minister
found he could not propose with success, or that he
was not able to propose as a measure which was
assuredly to receive the assistance of those_vsha
compose the Executive Government, and that such
a measure a Minister could net conscientious.,
ly give up, or abandon; that such a condition of
things would be sufficient to excuse a Minister
for retiring, and. would, indeed, give a Minister a
right to recipe. Now, after that allowance of the
Hon. Gentleman, it was matter of iistonishmeht to
him, that any doubt could have been entertained by
that Hon-Gentleman on that part of the subject; et
that he did not at once admit that the circumstance
which had been sufficiently explained already, had
not amounted, in the opinion of that Honourable
Gentleman, to a complete justification of himself aril
others, who had retired. He admitted, however,
to the Honourable Gentleman, that if a person
who filled an Office of important trust under Go-
vernment, and had formed the project of proposing.
some measure which did not appear to him to he'd
much public importance, although he had made
up his mind upon it, but which he could nor
carry- into effea, seeing clearly that the bent of the
Government, of which he made a part, was against
him, then it was the duty of a Minister to fotego
that opinion, and to sacrifice rather than withdraw
his assistance from Government in the hour
of peril.
[Here want of room compels us to defer the remaindcr
of
thii Speech until "f-inorrow.].
Mr- FOX rose, and entered vet?fully, into the
arguments which bed been used against the Motions
and defended. its necessity.
tvc regret that want of room prevent* frpin giving Mt
a outline of his Spvech. lie spoke air above three
houn.
71e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,,hI
a concise hut argumentative arid impressive Speech,
delivered his sentiments on the important Question
before the House. He 'said, he-thought it probable
that it may be deemed presumpiuoui in him to rise
after the Hon. Genttenem'who had just sat doevo
(Mr. Foie/ ; but he could not reconcile it to -his
conscience or to his.duty, to give w silent vote Oh
the present Motion. He did not wish to intrude
upon the attention of the House, so-as to interfeib
with these Gentlemen delivering their sentiment 4
against whom- this Motion was peculiarly .direct'
He assured the House that, at that late- hour, hi
would not trouble them long; The'stfte of his
precluded him from the possibility of doing-Ale; •
however much he nilght be-otherwise ineljned tb ice
He adverted, -firsts to what had beeriesid.teePeef.
ing hirnself, and his colleagues in Orli% pertifedi
larly to what had Allen from an Hon. Gentletteee
that he -disliked them because they•professedeb "get
upon ths principles of the Administration .teholl4
they succeeded. He avowed, that he did not on'
derstand such language, and declared, for MOST
and his Colleagues,e that they would net hate 0'
cepted of Office on condition of being bound to ant
system of principles,• because they had lieei .eln"
braced by any wani or: set -of men : but,. hit also
declared *sec their etinchithewoolti be 'regulated bf"
chose principles which- therhadlieng4eppoived 'olo'
supported, and which had:been :,approefe•d• lay tbffsi•
Houser and by the Country. in reply to all!thal
bad been• urged respeCting Confidence„he had:oolt
to observe, that he , and his Coiteagues having` beef
appointed by His MAJESTY to the offices.whidg
they eiow hold,. -by his undoubted Prerogative,
they asked no further confidence than that Svhien
they had tright to claim inconsequence of that-11134
pointment, and which he-thought they were entitled
to, except precluded from it by ;heir previoue
ratters. For his own partehe could nor be influence°.
by, any private motive in accepting his present sittie
ation. He had resigned an office to which, he hit
been repeatedly caued 'by the unanimous voiOthe
the House. A tegard to his own ease and comfort;
his feelings as a husband or a father, which most
naturally induce every -man! to consider the meant
of providing for his family, could not certainly be
considered among' the motives for his conduit.' fie
had been actuated solely bye, a sense of day to his So,
vereign, and regard for the interests of the Country+
He then proceeded- to advert to the grotirld of the
difference between this .Country and the Northero
Confedcract. The rights of this Country, he los
happy to., find, were allowed by the Honourahl°
Gentleman who made the Motion, and avowedly
recognized by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last"'
The only point in dispute seemed to be the inipoltl•
ante and propriety of enforcing those rights at the
present moment. He replied to some arguments
used by Mr. Fox upon this subject ; and concluded
his observations with exprCssing a hope that tell!
differences with the Northern Powers may yet. '
amicabiy settled, and with avowing an intention en
the part of Gove rnmen r to take every means to prevent
abuse in the exercise of this right by our Cruieet!.
On the subject of Peace, he declared that Adenlinl•
stration wished as sincerely for it as any set of mee
ho
-in the House could do ; that they Would r
earliest opportunity of evincing the sincerity of this
wish; and if the desire for Peace was as sinters
on-- the part, of France as its Rulers protes6ee4,
which he had no reason at present
oubt,
ro d
hoped that this great blessing may soon ii"obrfotiineudd
The sincerity•tef the Eiicmy on this pOinc .
hoWevez, be brehght to the test by their agre safe
or refusing to accede to such- terms as will be
tea
and bellow-able for this Country. He dereca,
discussion upon the claim ot the Catholics of 11.'2 of
He avowed himself a friend to the prieciplusin.
Toleration, which •he did not conceive were
fringeci'by any restrictions still remaining on thee
Body. He concluded with a tew observations uY;;;.
the effect of the; measures adopted by ratliame
.with respect to the present Scarcity of Provisions if,
Mr. GREY spoke NhOrtly 111 reply to the C"
c ELLOR Jai the EXCHEQUIR.
:The Question bring loudly called for, the House
divided, when• there appeared in favour of
Mr. GREY'S Motion 105
Against it - _ - 291 .

I

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Majority, rB6
Adjourned at a Quarter, before Five O'Clock•

_
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