The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-23 00:00:00

EXHIBITION.

In reply to Lord HOTHAM,
Lord PALMERSTON replied that as the papers pro.
mised would not be ready for a day or two, he should post-
pone his motion until Thursday week. But on Thursday
he should bring on the important subject of fortifications.
Lord ELCHO asked if the noble lord had any objections
to lay on the table that part of the contract with Messrs.
Kelk and Lucas, which related to the removal of the ma-
terials.

Lord PALMERSTON said he was not prepared to reply
to the question off hand.
FLOGGING LADIES IN POLAND.

Mt. LAYARD intimated that the Government had re-
ceived a communication from the Russian Government
desiring them to intimate that no such order as that alleged

for the flogging of ladies wearing mourning had been issued.
At the same time he (the right hon. member) wished to
state that the Government had received information of the
Perpetration in Poland of many inhuman atrocities. (Hear.)
_ _ _

Lord otyat PAIAILERSTO. NPOrlo,BrtoDpostpone the orders of the
after the not Poland. tee of the motion on the affairs of
Mr, BEA:U(I4ONT urged the hon. member for King's
immature whilst negotiations his
motion, as it would be exceed-
inglyhouse was without the netiations were pending, and the
Mr. comingKlNGLA.E.Ejoitted papers.
would be seriously prematu:zel. the opinion that that motion
Lord ENFIELD expressed the like opinion.
The house divided, when there appeared--
For
the motion ........
Against .............. .................. 110
Majority .............................. 165
The motion was consequently lost. The n ..
---55
nmbers created
some applause.
Mr. HORSMAN deprecated the course adopted by the
house as without precedent, and full of inconvenience. The
noble lord (Lord Palmerston), as the leader of the house,
had made a compact with the hon. and learned member.
Lord ENFIELD justified the course adopted as entirely
parliamentary.
Lord R. CECIL held that the noble lord was hound in

honour not to proceed with any other motion until that of
Poland was disposed of. (Hear, hear.) _ _ _

Mr. NEWDEGATE held that the house had adopted a
proper course. That house must not degenerate into a
mere debating club. It would have been wrong to debate
the affairs of Poland to an issue whilst negotiations were
pending.
Mr. CONINGHAM characterised this as an attempt to
crush an independent member. (Hear, hear.) When a
Court job, like that of Kensington, was to be perpetrated,
the Government and the house could easily find time for its
discussion. (Murmurs.)
Mr. BENTINCK concurred in the opinion that it was
desirable not then to discuss the subject. He thought,
however, it was the duty of the noble lord at the head of
her Majesty's Government to relieve the house from the
very awkward, nay painful, position it was placed in ; for
it was hard to say what might be the consequences on their
future proceedings if they could not place any reliance on
arrangements entered into by the leader of that house.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord having pledged himself on a
former occasion that the subject should be brought on that
night, he was hound to give the earliest opportunity for its
being brought forward.
Lord K. MONTAGU also considered the noble lord was
bound to give an early day for the discussion of the motion,
and condemned the course pursued, which, he said, was
one to govern by a minority.

Mr. BEAUMONT said he appealed to the hon. member
for the King's County on his own behalf, and without the
instigation of any one. Believing the time to be inoppor-
tune, he spoke to the hon. member for Bridgwater, a few
hours before the house met, on the subject, and he also
named it to one or two other hon. gentlemen, and find-
ing their views coincided with his, he made the motion.
Indeed, he had not made up his mind to take a division
up to the time when it was called, believing that the hon.
member for King's County would have answered the ap-
peal made to him. When similar appeals had been made he
had seen hon: members rise and answer them, if they did
not assent to them. (Hear.) Every member he spoke to on
the subject told him he would be justified in pursuing the
course he had, and they also agreed with him that there
were ample grounds for adjourning the discussion. He con-
sidered himself flee to act as an independent member, what-
ever arrangements might have been come to by the hon.
member and the noble lord at the head of the Government.

Mr. PEACOCKE said that the compact entered into be.
tween the hon. member for King's County and the noble
lord was not binding on the house. (Hear.) He believed it
was not the right time to bring the subject under discus-
sion. The Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs had stated
that the Government had received information which con-
tradicted the statement that the Russian Government had
ordered the use of the knout on Polish ladies who wore
mourning ; and he wished to know on whose authority it
was stated, as well as the addition he made to it, that the
barbarities practised by the Russians warranted the truth
of the rumour so in circulation. (Hear, hear.) •
Mr. D. GRIFFITH hoped the house would not cen-
sure the Urder Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for
the information he had given in reference to Russia and
Poland.

Lord PA.LMERST ON—I wasentirely taken by surprise
both with regard to the motion made and the decision come
to on it by the house. The Government had no other desire
than to return that courtesy to the hon, member for King's
County which he showed to us on a former occasion when
he postponed his motion, but of course it must be obvious to
every person that no Government can answer for every
member in the house. (Hear.) All we can do is to engage
that those facilities in the conduct of business we are
able to afford shall be accorded. I shall be quite ready,
so far as I am concerned, to adopt the proposal of the noble
lord (Lord R. Cecil) with regard to putting off the order of
the day, and of allowing the hon. member for King's County
to go on early in the evening with his motion ; but I must
remind the house that there are many orders on the paper
belonging to private members over which her Majesty's
Government have no control; neither do I think that that
course, if adopted, would be respectful to the majority who
by their votes considered it was not advisable then to pro-
ceed with the motion. (Hear.) If I had thought any in-
jury weuld have arisen by the discussion, I should have
told the hon. member so, and I feel certain, from the man-
ner in which he has hitherto discharged his public duties,
that he would have at once yielded to that suggestion.
(Hear.) I cannot say that such a discussion would have
been injurious to the public service—(hear)--but the carry-
ing of either of the addresses would have been—(hear)—
and I should have felt it my duty to-night, and shall
when those motions are made, to oppose them; because I
think they would render negotiations utterly impassible.
(Hear, hear) As I presume the discussion will not take
place to-night, I think it will be satisfactory to the house
to know the substance of the communication that was sent
on the 17th to Russia, with regard to the affairs of Poland
(hear, hear)—and I may say, at the same time, that similar
communications, in nearly identical terms, were made by
France and Austria, and the three communications would
in all probability reach St. Petersburg about the same time.
We are ready to lay the despatch alluded to on the table,
but it will, perhaps, be more courteous to Russia to give
tbem a suitable time for replying to it before we do so.
(Hear, hear.) There cannot, however, I think, be any
impropriety in my now stating to the house the substance
of the recommendations which we, in concert with France
and Austria, have submitted for the consideration of the
Russian Government. The suggestions comprise six
points : I. First, a general and a complete amnesty—(hear,
hear) ; secondly, national representation, upon the principle
—as we recommend it—as established by Alexander I. in
1815, in virtue of the execution of the treaty of Vienna.
The Austrian Government, however, propose to take some
modified view of the subject, but our opinion is that, in
order to satisfy the just expectation of the Polish nation,
the Parliament should be elected on the footing of the char-
ter as granted by Alexander I. Thirdly, that Poles alone
shall be appointed to public offices in regard to Polish ad-
ministration, such as will command the confidence of the
Polish nation. Fourthly, that full liberty of conscience
shall be given, and due protection to the religion of the
people. (Hear.) Fifthly, that the Polish language shall be
used on all public occasions, and in the education of the
people. And, sixthly, a regular system of recruiting to be
established, so as to prevent the recurrence of those pro-
ceedings which have given rise to the present disturbances.
(Hear.) We have strongly urged, in addition, that there
should be a cessation of hostilities, because our opinion is,
that unless the mutual conflicts between the insurgents on
the one hand and the Russian troops on the other are put
an end to, negotiations cannot rest on any stable or,satis-
Mctory foundation. The Austrian Government has not
actually recommended it, but they have urged the Russian
Government to a similar effect ; and I trust, when we lay
that despatch upon the table, the house will be of opinion
that her Majesty's Government have done everything in
our power likely to be attended with success—(hear)—be-
cause it was of consequence in these matters that we should
consider not what was desirable so much as what can be at-
tained. (Hear.) lam asked on what grounds my hon.
friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs has stated

that General Mouravieff did not issue an order that ladies
attired in mourning should be subjected to corporal suffer-

ing ; and also on what ground he stated that other at-
trocities have been committed by the Russian soldiers.
The first statement is founded on a telegraph communica-
tion forwarded at the desire of the Russian Government,
who were anxious to have it contradicted. And the
second statement was made on the authority of a despatch
received by her Majesty's Government, and amongst ether
things this transaction was reported—at a place not far
from Wilna, a body of Polish insurgents, about 120 in num-
ber, were surrounded by a superior Russian force. They
laid down their arms, and surrendered, and afterwards, by
order of the commanding officer, who was referred to to
know what was to be done, the Russian soldiers rushed on
them with fixed bayonets and killed 40 on the spot, and 20
who were severely wounded died after in the hospital.
(Sensation.) That statement was made amongst others on
good authority, to which my hon. friend alluded, as an in-
stance of the barbarity of the Russians. (Hear,) At the
same time truth compels me to say that we have also state-
ments of proceedings on both sides which make humanity
shudder, the prevalence of which on both sides is a strong
reason which induces us to urge on the Russian authorities
the suspension of those hostilities which desolate the coun-
try, lay waste the produce of industry, and tend to an im-

menso loss of life on both sides without any apparent result
to either. (Hear.) That is the statement I have to make,
and I hardly think there will be much use or that it will be
respectful to the majority to press on the discussion to-
night, because those who were against its coming before the
order, might carry the motion for adjournment, and there:.
fore I shall feel it my duty to give the hon. member for
King's County every facility for bringing it forward another
night. When the division was called I expected to hear the
hon. member for King's Ccunty rise in his place and say
that he acquiesced or dissented to the request, but as he did
not, I voted for him in accordance with my pledge to him,
and it was not my fault that the motion has not been brought
on. (El ear.)
Mr.DISRAELI—The house is in some embarrassment,
notwithstanding the observations of the noble lord. I

am of opinion that this is not a convenient time for dis-
cussing this question ; but, the noble lord the leader of the
house being of a different opinion, I cannot demur to
the arrangement he has made. The noble lord has said that
he expected to hear a statement from the hon. gentleman
the member for King's County before the motion was put;
but if the noble lord had risen after the third hon. member
had spoken behind him, and at once have said that her Ma-
jesty's Government felt no inconvenience would arise from
discussing. the Polish question, the division would not have
taken place, and the house would not have been put in so
difficult a position. (Hear.) If the house is placed in a dif-
ficulty, the Minister also ; for what security have we got,
when he says that another opportunity shall be afforded of
discussing the subject, that the noble lord's assurance will
be enforced, when he might be defeated by his own sup-
porters ? (Hear.) After this point has arisen and been dis-
cussed the noble lord; to my surprise, made a very impor-
totn..t,eermaunication to the house. He has laid great stress
tiles7w Which
to Russia of a cessation of hostili-
ties,
p loch Is no doubt greatly to be desired, not only for
se of putting an end to the mutual massacres of
which we hear so much, but as the best basis for diplomatic
action; but I should likbe informed of the means Russia
has for obtaining a
cessation of hostilities from Poland.

These propositions, if accepted, and if practicable, will only
bring about a state of affairs similar to that which existed
before, and which must be essentially considered of a very
provisional character, though they do not seem to me to offer
any solution of the great question. (Hear, hear.) There are
only two great solut one to the question, the unityof the Rus-
sian empire, or the independence of Poland. (Hear.) These
are two inflexible policies, and no doubt much might be said
on both sides ; but the proposition of her Majesty's Govern.
ment appears to me to take entirely the character of a mere
diplomatic interference, which can never do anything.
(Hear, hear.) I cannot say that the policy of her Majesty's
Government has shadowed forth to-night is one at all dis •
tinguished by its prescience, its sagacity, or that firmness
which is calculated to lead to any satisfactory result.
(Hear.) He mat be a very sanguine politician who can
suppose that they will be accepted by Russia. They would
only raise a phantom of Polish independence, which, in due
course, must lead to that conjunction of circumstances such
as have continued up to the present, and no solution of the
state of affairs which so periodically disturbs Europe ap-
pears now to be indicated in the policy of her Majesty's
Government. ( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL asked the noble lord if the proposition
had reference to Lithuania, Volhynia, and Podolia.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY considered the discussion un-
desirable at the present time.
Mr. HENNESSY said he bowed to the decision of the
house--and with reference to the proposition of the noble
noble lord the member for Stamford he begged to say he
had no desire to do anything opposed to the feeling of the
majority of the house. Those who voted against him in the
recent division did not differ from him in opinion on the
Polish question. (Hear.) All, he believed, were anxious
that something should be done for Poland, and he could
not regard the division as at all bearing on the merits of
the case. (Hear, hear.) He should accept the noble lord's
offer, and bring the subject forward on Thursday.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD was also of opinion that it would
have been impolitic then to have discussed the motion, and
he put several questions to the noble lord relative to Aus-
trian conduct in the negociation, and asked if he would lay
on the table the despatch on which the Under Secretary for
Foreign Affairs had that night made his statement.

After some remarks from Mr. SCULLY and Mr. WYLD,
Lord PALMERSTON said the general and complete
amnesty was to apply to all who had been in arms in Poland,
whether in Congress Poland or in the Upper Provinces'
The other arrangements would only apply to the kingdom of
Poland in relation to the treaty of Vienna. The six points
her Majesty's Government bad proposed were prepared by
Earl Russell, and agreed to by France and Austria, with a
slight modification by Austria. Although he considered it
his duty to state what her Majesty's Government had done,
he did not think he ought to enter into detailed explana-
tions of communications by other Governments of which
they were not officially in possession; but he might state
that generally the communications of France and Austria
were to the same effect as those forwarded by her Majesty's
Government. Many other Governments had also made re-
presentations, but it would not be regular for him to go into
that at present. He could not then give the hon. member
for Bodmin an answer to his question relative to the ap-
pointment of a constitutional army officered by Poles. He
thought it would be rather a stormy proposal to make to
Russia.

Mr. FORSTER said they were now in a different position
to what they were when the division took place. He hoped
the noble lord would name an early day for the discussion
He hoped the hon. member would give a few days before he
attempted to bring on a discussion.
Mr. HENNESSY said he would be happy to do what
was best upon the case ; and as it seemed to be the opinion
of the house that the debate should not take place until the
answer of the Russian Government was made known, he
would bow to that wish. He supposed the Government
would give him every facility for bringing the question on.
The motion was then withdrawn.
LONDON, &c., DIOCESES BILL.

. ,
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. G. CUBITT called attention to the regulations
which had been made in other diocesses, and expressed a
hope that the present measure would not prejudice the dio-
cesan arrangements of the country generally.
Sir G. GREY said the present bill would not in any way
prejudice the general question.
The bill passed through committee.
MUTINY (EAST INDIA) ACT REPEAL BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
PASSENGERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

The bill passed through committee, with some verbaj
amendments.

WALMER VESTING BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
THAMES EMBANKMENT (SOUTH SIDE) BILL,
The house went into committee on this bill.
Clauses 1 to 24 inclusive were agreed to without dis•
cussion.

On clause 25,

Mr. COX proposed to have the sum of £480,000 substi-
tuted for £700,000; and he did so chiefly for the purpose of
enabling the First Comraiisioner to state his opinion on the
subject, the right hon. gentleman not having had an oppor-
tunity of doing so in the committee upstairs, on account of
being chairman.
Mr. TITE said the question lay within a narrow com-
pass. Neither sum would be wanted, and the only object
in putting the sum of £700,000 in the clause was to give the
Metropolitan Board of Works better borrowing powers. It
was estimated that the coal and wine dues would realise
£2,400,000 in the course of 20 years.
Mr. COWPER said he had no objection to the amend-
ment of the hon. member for Finsbury, and he believed the
present sum had got into the bill by mistake. He
thought it right that the maximum borrowing power of the
Metropolitan Board should be reduced to £480,000.
Mr. DOULTON complained that the amendment of the
hon.member for Finsbury should have been proposed with-
out notice ; and he thought if it were carried that it would
interfere very much with the progress of metropolitan im-
provements.

An Hox ME)IBER moved that the house be counted, but
upon taking the numbers, 40 members having been found
present, the motion failed.

Mr. DOULTON resumed—The hon. member for Fins-
bury and the right hon. gentleman seemed to forget that a
large sum would be realised from the sale of land conse-
quent upon the new street; and he thought it was not
treating the Metropolitan Beard well to limit the sum in the
manner proposed.

Sir J. SHELLEY said at th 9 time of discussing the
Thames Embankment Bill it was distinctly understood that
no charge should be made upon the rates, but that the whole
cost should be defrayed out of the coal and wine dues. He
would support the amendment.
The amendment was agreed to.
Clauses 26, 27, and 28 were also agreed to.
On clause 29,
Mr. COX moved the omission of the clause, as both it and
clause 30 gave very great powers to the Metropolitan Board.
Mr. COWPER said the clause gave the rates to the Me-
tropolitan Board as a collateral security for the wine duties,
but he wished it to be understood that he was not respon-
sible for the clause.
Sir J. SHELLEY could not support the clause, as it was
a departure from the original understanding that there
should be no charge upon the metropolitan rates for the
purposes of the embankment.
Mr. DOULT ON supported the clause, the object of which
was to confer easier borrowing powers upon the Metropoli-
tan Board.
Mr. TITE defended the clause on the same ground.
Lord R. CECIL hoped the clause would be maintained
as it stood. He thought, in constructing a work of such
magnitude, they should be cautious how they pressed upon
the poorest of the community in the shape of an additional
burden on the coal duties.
After some further discussion, the clause was agreed to,
as were the remaining clauses, and the bill passed through
committee.
The house resumed.
PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMATION

BILL.

On the motion that this bill as amended be considered,
Mr. BASS moved that the bill be recommitted, witha view
to the insertion of the provisional order respecting Rhyl.
Mr. PAULL seconded the motion.
After some discussion, the house divided—
Ayes . 50
Noes ............

Majority
The bill was then recommitted, and passed through com
mittee.
LAND DRAINAGE (PROVISIONAL ORDERS)
BILL.

The amendments to the bill were considered and agreed to.
SIR ROBERT HITCHAM'S CHARITY BILL.
This bill passed through committee after some amend•
ments.