The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-12 00:00:00

BOROUGH OF EAST RETFORD.

Mr. N. CALVERT said, that as the case of the
borough of East Retford had been well known for
several years, he did not mean, in bringing forward
his motion, to trouble the House at any length. He
had no personal feeling in this question; and he
thought it very hard that any such motive should be
attributed to him. His object was one of strict
justice and fairness. Under all the circumstances,
he should say no more at present, except to claim
his right to reply to any of the old arguments and
objections that might be raised against his motion.
The Hon. Gent. then moved for leave to brill in a
1)111 " To prevent bribery and corruption in the bo-
rcugh of Elist Retford."
Alf! lialsiNY6olN bogcd that be ;Uvula n 9; be

accused of pertinacity, if, after so many decisions
against extending the forfeited franchise of Fast
Retford to the town of Birmingham, he still perse-
vered in Nvhat he considered a just cause. He now
rose to propose an amendment on the motion of his
Hon. Friend. On this occasion he was labouring
under a new embarrassment. The last time this
question was discussed, he believed it appeared that
the average opinion of the people of Birmingham
was, that the measure he proposed would give them
perfect satisfaction. But since that period, a con-
siderable change had taken place in the average
opinion. The general distress had created a great
alteration of opinion ; and the people attributed that
distress to the general corruption, neglect, and mis-
conduct of Parliament. The consequence was, that
at Birmingham they had taken steps for their own
protection. This, however, should not discourage
him. He would still go on, and endeavour to ob-
tain his original object. He bad, last session, urged
on the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the neces-
sity of extending the benefit of representation to
the great commercial and manufacturing towns.—
Government, however, seemed anxious to keep up
the old state of things, at the expence of the
country, and, he mast say, at the expence of com-
mon sense. Under these circumstances, he felt it
to be his duty to pursue the course he had formerly
taken. That tl:e right of electing Members to sit
in Parliament should be taken from East Retford,
on account of its notorious corruption, did not, he
thought, admit of dispute. It was proved that in
the election of 1526, out of 166 persons who
voted, 155 received bribes. It had been pro-
posed to extend the franchise to the hundred of
Bassetlaw ; but the freeholders of Bassetlaw were
already represented by two Honourable Gentle-
men—he meant the Members for Nottingham;—
while many populous towns—for instance—
Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and Sheffield,
were unrepresented. It was riot only absurd, but
it was dangerous, to withhold the benefits of repre-
sentation from places such as these; for he felt
that, in times of pressure, a catastrophe would be
the certain result of that want of representation. The
Hon. Gent. then alluded to the political union so-
ciety recently established at Birmingham. He read
a long extract from the prospectus of that society,
and argued that it would be most prudent, by giv-
ing to Birmingham the right of electing Represen-
tatives, to form a link between that political union
arid the Howe. He concluded by moving, " That
all the words after that' be omitted, for the pur-
pose of introducing the following Leave be
given to bring in a Bill to exclude the borough of
East Retford from electing burgesses to serve in
Parliament, and to enable the town of Birmingham
to return two Representatives in lieu thereof.'
Mr. MARSHALL seconded the motion.

Mr: BATLEY thought it was contrary to the
principle of the Constitution that such towns as
Leeds, Birmingham, and Sheffield, should not be
properly represented. But he certainly would not
benefit those towns by disfranchising other places.
Viscount HOWICK,in consequence of this ques-
tion having been introduced so soon, was precluded
from making the motion of which he hail given
notice. He meant, however, to vote for the pro-
position of the Hon. Member for Bletchingley ; and
if it were not carried, it would then be open to him
to move his own resolution as an amendment to
the original motion. The Hon. Member for Hert-
fordshire had moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to prevent bribery and corruption in the borough
of East Retford ; and the motion which he
(Viscount Howick) had meant to propose, it
he had come down in time, would go to de-
clare, " that the abuses which were alleged to exist
in East Retford, were not confined to that town,
but were notorious in many cities and boroughs in
the United Kingdom." Such was his opinion ;
and therefore he thought it was much better to pro-
pose a general remedy for a general evil, instead of
applying particular remedies to particular places,—a
course which experience showed did not serve any
good purpose, and was positively bad in practice,
He originally voted for the motion to disfranchise
this borough, not to punish the electors for the
crime laid to their charge, but in order that the
franchise taken from East Retford should be given
to Birmingham, which, as an improvement in the
representation, was an alteration desirable to be pro-
cured. But the experience of the last three Ses-
sions bad greatly changed his views on the subject;
and he agreed with the Hon. Member who had last
spoken, that it would be better to extend the fran-
chise directly to great commercial and manufactur-
ing towns, rather than to benefit them by disfran-
chising other places. lie felt that, in taking a con-
trary course, the friends of reform were playing the
game of their opponents, and lending their counte-
nance to that which, however gravely put forward,
was neither more nor less than a mockery and a de-
lusion.—(Hear.)—The House ought to be cautious
in dealing with cases of this kind. The doctrine
laid down with respect to them was, that punish-
ment should not be inflicted On all, except all were
shown to have been guilty. This doctrine was per-
fectly just. But the present proceeding was op-
posed to it; for here punishment was not regularly
inflicted by the regular course of law. This was a
Bill of Pains and Penalties,—an ex post facto law,
—by which the Parliament was constituted judge,
jury, and executioner. No man, be was sure, could
seriously say that bribery could be put an end to by
disfranchising any particular place. The proper re-
medy would be to adopt a general measure, instead
of pursuing this dilatory and uncertain course—a
course as dilatory and as uncertain us the Court of
Chancery. He very much feared that the motives
of many of those who supported this measure of dis-
franchisement were not exactly what at first sight
they appeared to be. lie believed that it was not
the crime of bribery which excited their indignation,
but the clumsiness with which it was effected.—
(Hear.) - •They did not wish to put an end to
those abuses, but to keep them from the public eye,
and to conceal from the light of day their own secret
crimes.—(Hear, hear.)----This it was that induced
them to vote for the disfranchisement of East Ret-
ford. Such was his belief; but he certainly did not
expect a motive of this kind would have been openly
proclaimed by a Right Hen. Member in that House.
He alluded to the Right lion. Member for Liver.
pool, who, in a speech delivered by him last year
(a speech which he did not hear, but which he had
read with astonishment), used the following remark-
able words :—" What, then remains behind ? Par-
liamentary Reform. I trust it will long remain
behind. I trust we shall always be able to resist
that reform. I am sure, if the motion of the lion.
Member for Bletchingley is lost, the difficulty of
resisting Parliamentary Reform will be greatly in-
creased." He (Viscount Howick) felt no difficulty
in understanding the meaning of the Right Hon.
Gentleman. He had here made an admission for
which he thanked hint. Individuals who thought
as the Right lion. Gentleman did, were willing to
give up some of the outworks of corruption, that
they might be the better enabled to defend the prin-
cipal strong hold. They thought that East Retford
ought to be sacrificed, in order to prevent the whole
system of corruption from being overturned. Just
as in a bull-fight a cloak is dropped to turn aside
the rage of the mad animal, while his assailant pre-
pares more securely to destroy him. Were the pub-
lic ignorant of the undue means by which a large
majority of the members of that House obtained
their seats in it, we might declaim against the vena-
lity of the voters of East Retford ; but, notorious
as these circumstances were, he thought it better to
pass over the present case in silence till we were
prepared to deal with others equally flagitious. It
might be hopeless to obtain complete reform at
present, but we might at least abstain from such'
hypocrisy and insincerity as to pass a Bill against
an individual rotten borough when so many more
demanded equal punishment. He trusted that a
dread of public contempt, if no better motive, would
prevent the House from taking such a course, and
that if not disposed to adopt the natural plan for the
prevention of bribery and corruption, they would
eject the Bill of the Hon. Member for Hertford-
: bluer WIN P.M* iond waclade4 by reading a

series of resolutions declaring the prevalence of
bribery at elections, and stating that the character of
the House would be best maintained by abandoning
useless and expensive proceedings against particular
boroughs, and adopting comprehensive measures of
reform.
Mr. O'CONNELL could not content himself
with giving n silent vote on this occasion. Being
himself a radical reformer, and desiring a complete
and thorough reform in every thing corrupt in the
country, he was anxious to make an example in
every particular case of corruption that came within
the general rule. He thought the Hon. Member
for Beverley mistaken when he stated that the
House %vas now called upon to act in a judicial ca-
pacity, and decide whether the electors of East Ret•
ford had been guilty of bribery and corruption, and
that the fact was not proved against the borough
on the occasion of the last election. If the fact
were not proved, then certainly the Hon. Gentle-
man ought to oppose the Bill of the Hon. Member
for Hertfordshire, which proceeded on the supposi-
tion that bribery and corruption existed. The Hon.
Gentleman argued that bribery was not proved.—
He (Mr. O'Connell) had read the evidence in the
case, and was convinced that East Retford conti-
nued a sink of bribery and corruption up to the pre-
sent moment. It was quite true that the existence
of bribery, on a recent occasion, had not been
proved, because the time of payment had not ar-
rived : the bribes were due, but had not been then
paid. The voters sent Members into the House,
and gave credit for the bribes, putting faith in the
parties for the 40 guineas a piece. The Noble Lord
(Howick) seemed to think that as all the roters of
East Retford had not been proved guilty, all should
not be punished; and argued, that though there
might be a guilty majority, yet there was an inno-
cent minority, whom it would be wrong to visit
with punishment for the faults of others. But let it
be recollected that boroughs acted by mejerities—
that majorities, and not minorities, sent members to
Parliament ; so that, supposing a few voters to be
free from corruption, yet was the borough corrupt
for all purposes of representation : consequently,
the majority ought to be punished, and the bo-
rough prevented from ever again sending Mem-
bers to that House. His opinion was, that the
right of representation ought not to belong to
any private individual.—(Hear, hear.) He had
heard and believed that many Members sat in Par-
liament who were the nominees of Noble Lords,
but this was a contradiction in terms of the spirt
and letter of the Constitution. Let us not talk of
the Constitution, if Noble Lords, contrary to the
resolution of the House, send their nominees here,
as I know they do,—to be sure I do—(Laughter)—
every one knows that there are actual nominees of
Peers sitting in Parliament. The period would
come when the people could no longer be deluded
upon this subject. The principle of the Constitu-
tion was, that the Crown could not touch a penny
of any man's property in the shape of taxes, ex-
cept through his legal representative; and if taxes
were levied upon persons not duly represented, it
was, in point of principle, a direct fraud. He
should vote for every measure of reform, and for
this among the number. Why let East Retford
escape, because as the Noble Lord said, its punish-
ment would be the punishment of a single corrupt
borough, when so many others sore equally cor-
rupt ? Ought the attack to fail, on the ground of
its being an isolated one ? Suppose that, during
the late severe snows, 150 wolves, compelled by
the inclemency of the weather, had descended [ruin
the Pyre's:tees into France; that after having done
a great deal of mischief the inhabitants rose against
them, and one of the number was clumsy enough to
get himself into a corner while the others escaped :
would the people say, " Oh, this is an isolated indi-
vidual, let us not kill him till we can get at the
other 149, who are quite as bad as he." He, for
one, would not act upon this principle : he should
vote for extinguishing the franchise of East Ret-
ford, and transferring the privilege of electing Mem-
bers of Parliament to Birmingham.
Lord NORMANBY agreed with the Noble Lord
(Howick) that the voters of East Retford were not
singly or peculiarly guilty, but was of opinion, that
as their case had been brought forward, and their
guilt proved, an example should be made of therm.
He wished to take advantage of their delinquency,
for the purpose of making a beneficial change in the
representation, and transferring the elective fran-
chise of East Retford to Birmingham.
Mr. HUSKISSON could not give a silent vote
on this question. Still recollecting that oily a few
months had passed since, at an advanced period of
the last session of Parliament, he had had an op-
portunity of stating fully (as he did) his views of
the subject nosy under consideration, he did not think
it necessary to go again over the ground which he
had then traversed. But he must be allowed to say
that every thing which had occurred within the last
few months—every thing which was now passing—
every thing in the condition of the country, which
even those who ran could read—every thing that oc-
curred in every quarter—pointed out to him, as to
every dispassionate observer, the great and increas-
ing importance and it thorough conviction of the ne-
cessity of dealing with a corrupt and rotten borough
like East Retford, not by extending tle franchise to
the adjoining hundred of Bassetlaw, the inhabitants
of which had already votes for Nottinghaneshire, but
by disfranchising it altogether, and tranferring the
elective privilege to the great and populous town of
Birmingham, which was altogether unrepresented,
(Hear.)—He felt the increasing and urgent import-
ance of this in reference to the general question of
reform ; end he was riot afraid to avow his feeling,
as he now did, that it was of the utmost importance
we should deal with the matter under consideration
so as best to guard ourselves against the growing
danger of sweeping reform on principles too abstract
and general. He avowed that to be his feelingonn
called upon others who thought with him upon the
subject to take tip this defensive position against the
dangers which pressed upon us from every quarter.
If by the influence of his Majesty's Government in
this House he should be driven from the position
which he now occupied,—if the present proposition
for a moderate and reasonable reform were defeated
by means of that influence,—much as he should
regret it, he should be driven, very reluctantly, to
fall hack upon another position, which would also be
defensive. Taking, as he now did, time best situa-
tion and point of defence he could command against
large, wild, and sweeping innovations upon our esta-
blished institutions, he would maintain it as
long as practicable, and when driven from it,
as he might be by the means alluded to,
he should then take up another line of de-
fence. His principle was, to deal with the evil that
came before us, in order to confine the remedy, if
possible, to the immediate case which appeared to
require its application,—an object best attained by a
speedy administration of the remedy. When he
said, hypothetically, that if the amendment of the
Hon. Member for Bletchingley were lost, it rrould
be lost by means of ministerial influence in that
House, he used expressions which were perfectly
Parliamentary; and he would add, that that in-
fluence had been exercised to the utmost extent to
which it could be legitimately pushed in cases like
the present.—(Hear.)—lt was seen, that where no
influence had been exercised, the view and intention
of Parliament was to transfer the elective franchise
from a corrupt borough to the important town of
Leeds.—(Hear, hear.)—As far as the matter de-
pended on the House of Commons, they had ad-
mitted the principle of conferring upon the great
towns that had grown up to their present magni-
tude and importance in proportion to the growth
and increase of our wealth and commercial resources,
a substantial representation. The representation of
Penryn, as far as that House was concerned,—as
far as the Commons House of Parliament could,—
was to have been transferred to Manchester. Now,
when it was peculiarly necessary to show sympathy
with the productive classes,—when it was necessary
to give them the means of laying a fair statement of
their sufferings before Parliament, with a view to
an attempt to relieve them,—there should be a ter:-
(.1."/ on the par; of the kiouse to transfer the fran

chise of this corrupt borough to the town of Bir-
minglialln—(Hear.)—From the bottom of his heart
he said so, and with the utmost sincerity; with a
deep sense of the general and profoend feeling pos-
sessing the minds of the men of this country, not
of the ignorant and uninformed rabble, but of men
of education and intellect, as competent as the
members of that House to form a sound and judicious
opinion upon the circumstances of the country.
Looking at the unsettled and disquieted suite of
mind prevailing among such persons,—a state of
mind that existed not only in reference to their own
circumstances, but in reference to the condition of
the industrious, agricultural, and manufacturing po-
pulation of the country,—it would be most gratify-
ing to his feelings, as doubtless it would be to those
of the great mass of the community, if they could
persuade themselves that among his Majesty's Mi-
nisters there did exist a just sense of what the Com•
mons House of Parliament ought to be in the practi-
cal administration and working of the Constitution of
the country. The events which had taken place of
late years might have taught Ministers a little
practical wisdom—(Hear)—and they might also
have derived instruction from the working and con-
sequences of these events. As much as any man
he rejoiced at the repeal of the Corporation end
Test Acts.—(Hear,)—As much as any man he re-
joiced at every vestige of the Roman Catholic penal
code having been effaced from the pages of our
statute-book.—(Hear.)—As much as any man he
rejoiced that the improved spirit of the age had
wrung from Governments successive concessions in fa-
vour of liberty, concessions in favour of intelligence,
concessions in favour of commerce, concessions in
favour of general improvement ; but when we
looked at the history of these concessions, was it
creditable to, or consistent with, the character of
the Legislature of this country, we should always
appear to grant such concessions only at the moment
when prudence and necessity compelled us no
longer to withhold them ?—(Hear.)—Under a deep
impression, a firm conviction, that many other in-
dividuals took is similar view of the subject, and
entertaining a hope that his Majesty's Ministers
would be alive to the changes that were working
around them, he entertained some faint hopes (he
confessed they were only faint) that Government
would feel disposed to reconsider the question now
before the House, and treat it in a manner different
from that in which it was treated by them in the
last Session of Parliament. He did not wholly
despair of its being re-considered when lie heard
the Noble Lord, who moved the Address with as
ability and good feeling which did him infinite
credit, stating the reasons that induced him, after
having sat for 17 years in Parliament, to undertake
a task generally assigned to younger Members, and
oleo entering into an explanation of the grounds
upon which he occupied, for the first time, a place
upon the Ministerial benches. The Noble Lord
had thought it necessary to state :the reasons that
induced him to more the Address, and he did so
with great propriety. He told the House that
during 17 years he had been a constant friend and
supporter of liberal principles of Government,—that
he had seen with satisfaction the advances re-
cently made towards such principles, and that he
hailed with pleasure the circumstance of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers having adopted any measures that
had been recommended by the other side of the
House. The Noble lord supported the present Go-
vernment because, formoth, they were a Tory ad-
ministration governing on Whig principles.—(Hear.)
- When he heard this sentiment cheered by so
many Hon. Gentlemen at the period of its being
first tittered by the Noble Lord, he might be ex-
cused if he found ground for hope in the fact. It
was also necessary to bear in mind the fact that
Ministers had appointed to the office of first law
adviser of his Majesty in that House, a Learned
Gent., who was Attorney-General when his late
lamented Friend Mr. Canning was at the head of
the Administration. By the way, upon that occa-
sion, as on the present, the Noble Lord (Darling-
ton) appeared anxious to support the existing Ad-
ministrsiion in common with many of his friends,
because the course taken by it was consistent with
their views and feelings. Another Right Hon.
Member (Mr. Abercromby) who was appointed to
a high official situation by Mr. Canning, had been
recently promoted to a place upon the bench in
Scotland by the present Government.—(hear,
hear.)—He greatly rejoiced that this appointment
had taken place. He had long known that excellent
individual, he had long known the value of his
public character, and the extent of his private vir-
tues, lie would now say of that gentle:nen in his
absence (the House being unfortunately for itself
deprived of the advantage of his services) what he
would not have said in his presence,—namely, that
a person of a sounder or more correct mind—of
greater sterling good sense—of a more honest and
uncompromisieg spirit he did not know. That Right
lion. Person would carry into his high office a reso-
lute and honest determination to reform abuses if
they existed. A litter person to fill the situation
allotted to him could not have been recommended
to his Majesty. He rejoiced at the appointment,
and sincerely thanked the King's Ministers for it.—
(Hear, hear.)—Connecting all these concessions
and appointments (at which he rejoiced as proofs
that the spirit which actuated the government of
Mr. Canning had not been entirely lost sight of,)
he said he rejoiced, and why ?—because he thought
it possible that the application of the principle of
concessions might also have been extended to the
present question.—(Hear.)—He felt the more con-
fident in his expectation, because each and every one
of the individuals who now cheered the Government
for acting on Whig principles had been among the
most zealous supporters of such reforms. A near con-
nection of the noble mover of the Address, since ele-
vated to the House of Peers, but who then represented
the county of Durham in Parliament, had supported
such a measure. But if it was tobe understood from
the silence of Ministers that they still adhered to
their former line of conduct with respect to the
question now before the House, that they intended
to support the extension of the elective franchise to
the hundred of Bassetlaw, he, for one, should deeply
lament it, because, under such circumstances, he
thought that the impression occasioned out of doors
by such a course would be far from favourable to the
general interests of the country.—(Hear.)—lt was
quite impossible that any one in the situation in which
he stood with respect to a town of equal importance
with Manchester, Birmingham, or Leeds, one of the
greatest towns in point of wealth, and power, and
importance, in the commercial transactions of the
country, it was quite impossible that he should not
almost daily ask himself the question, " How was it
possible for him, a member for Liverpool, to doubt
the importance of such a town as Birmingham, of
such a town as Manchester, of such a town as Leeds,
being represented in Parliament ?" His constituents
must feel how incompetent he was to discharge the
duties assigned him us their representative, but still
he was prepared to say fiom the frequent communica-
tions he had with them (from which he derived much
material information to hisown great benefit and better
qualification for the discharge of his duties in Parlia-
ment), he was prepared to say that his constituents
would freely admit that the fact of their having re-
presentatives in Parliament was a great and substan-
tial benefit to them. lie could not flatter himself
that he had been nominated upon the East India com-
mittee appointed last night, out of any compliment
to himself as an humble individual doubtless his
name was upon the list, because lie represented a
wealthy, active, and important community. Then
he asked himself if Birmingham, Manchester, and
Leeds, had also representatives in Parliament,
would the House have been able or inclined to ex-
clude them from being heard through such Repre-
sentatives, upon an occasion so important to their
interest ? It would have been impossible that such
a thing should have taken place. Last summer he
had spent a fortnight among his constituents at
Liverpool, and a shorter period at Alanches,ter, the
great seat of the manufacturing interests.
communications he had had with the most influen-
tial and intelligent persons in both those places, lie
claire(' much 1,411144 v infclinatio couccted

their peculiar interests and those' of the country at
large,—information which he never could have ac-
quired from formal deputations to the Board of
Trade. It was by duly considering the results of
such intercourse, and collecting general opinions on
given subjects, that, the interests of the country
could be best consulted. Why, then, should places
capable of affording such sources of information be
excluded from the advantages of representation ?
When he proposed that the name of Mr. Marshall,
the Member for Yorkshire, should be placed upon

the East India Committee in the room of that
of the lion. Member for Sussex, because his
Friend the Member for York had paid considerable
attention to the subject of India, and the Ilon.
Member for Sussex had not, what did his
Right I-ion. Friend (Mr. Peel) say in
answer to his proposition ? Why, that the
Committee was very numerous,—that he had endea-
voured to select and place in it some representatives of
every separate interest in the country, and that the
lion. Member for Sussex had been nominated be-
cause he represented the wool interest.—(Laugh-
ter.)-1-le owned that the gravity with which his
Right lion. Friend stated his reason about the
wool interest had nearly overcome his—(A laugh)
—and he felt disposed to ask whether there was a
county Member in the House who did not repre-
sent something of the wool interest—(l.mughter)
as well as other interests connected with agricul-

tore ? When his Right Hon. Friend talked 'of the
wool interest being represented by the -Alember for
Sussex, he (Mr. Huskisson) asked the Hon. Mem-
ber for Staffordshire, who was also in the Com-
mittee, and indirectly represented the hardware and •
mineral interests of which Birmingham was the
centre, whether those interests did not deserve to
be directly represented in that House ? Dhl not
these interests form one of the great branches of our
national resources ? Was the great town of Birming-
ham unrepresented, or the hundred of Bsssetlaw re-
presented, as regarded wool, by the Member for
Sussex, and as regarded every thing else by the
two Members for I\ ottinghemshire, the worthier of
sending Members to Parliament ? But he turned
from this point, which was merely a question
in-
tween Bassetlaw and Birmingham, and one that did
not admit of a doubt, and came to another conside- I
ration. He saw in Birmingham lately an association •
which, as far as he could perceive its elements, princi-
ples, and operations, seemed exactly formed on the
model of the Catholic Association ; for it had its
subscriptions, its funds, its meetings, its discus-
sions, and its great agitator.—(Herr, hear, and
laughter.)—The purpose of this association was to
raise a universal cry for Parliamentary Reform,—
to carry the question by exaggerating the difficul-
ties, abuses, and distresses of the country. Ad-
miring, as he did, the talent of the gentleman who
presided at the Birmingham meeting, he, for one,
would much rather see that gentlemen in the House
of Commons—(Hear)--as fortunately he saw the
lion. Member for Clare in the House of Commons—
(Hear, and a laugh)—he would rather see the
chairman of the Birmingham meeting here as the re-
presentative of that town, than in presiding: over
such an association, sending forth these statements
and appeals to the country, which was perhaps too
prone, at the present moment, to act on the appre-
hensions generated by them. These were the rea-
sons which induced him to support the amendment
proposed by the lion. Member for Bletchingley. If
it were lost, he should have no farther concern in
the business ; for it seemed almost indifferent to

him (at least he found little consolation in the alt,,r-
native), whether the representation remained in the
rotten borough of East Retford, or was extended
to the adjoining hundred of Bassetlaw.--(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
could assure the House that he was by no means
unwilling to give an opinion on the present ques-
tion. His silence hitherto had arisen from de-
ference to his Right Hon. Friend who had just sat
down; and who, having been referred to in the dis-
cussion, he supposed would wish to avail himself of
the earliest opportunity of replying to the allusions
that had been made.—(Hear, hear.)—hie had also
another reason for his silence. This was not the
first occasion on which this question had come be-
fore them. The House had, seven or eight times,
declared that the franchise of East Retford should
be transferred to the hundred of Bassetlaw, and he

thought there could be no doubt on the mind of any
min that he should adhere to his former conduct,
and to the former conduct of the House, in shaping
their course on the present occasion. Ile certainly
should Note for the motion of the Hon. Member fur
Hertfordshire, because that motion was, in his opi-
nion, most consonant with his views of reform. His
Right Hon. Friend had said that he was no reformer.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) begged to
claim for himself the privilege of disclaiming that
title also. His Right Hon. Friend, however, thought
by the course he proposed to adopt he should op-
(pkorseemtilyiee wpiokstietriorsiclalgemaienast ofallrefmaotrtem, and tapts tokecuaprrya
such schemes into effect. But he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) on the other hand
thought his course was most consistent with the
constitution of that Howe. He thought that there
was great danger in going even one step towards
general reform,—and such a step he thought this to
be. His Right Hon. Friend had told them how
important it was that Birmingham, and Leeds, and
Manchester, and other great towns should send re-
presentatives to that House; and, by what his
Right lion. Friend had said on that subject, he had
plainly indicated that whenever a measure for giving
representatives such places might be brought for-
ward, he would so depart from the general views ha
had laid down, as to vote for those measures.—
(Hear.)—His Right Hon. Friend had clearly inti-
mated a disposition to go these further lengths. In
so doing, his Right Hon. Friend might think that
he was only taking up a defensive position still;
hut by such a course his Right Hon. Friend would
most assuredly go on shifting his position in sucha
way that, though his Right Hon. Friend might still
mean to act on the defensive, there would, at last, be
nothing left to defend.—(llear.)—His Right Hon.
Friend, too, had tried to throw upon the Govern-
ment the odium, if odium it was to be considered, of
not going the length he wished the House to go ; and
said that in the event of the rejection of the motion he
supported,he should feel relieved from the restrictions
which, until now, he had imposed upon himself. If,
however, his Right lion. Friend was really desirous
of maintaining the constitution of that House, and
of opposing all sweeping measures of reform, h.
would find that the course which he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) proposed to adopt was at once
the most prudent and the best calculated for those
views which his Right Hon. Friend professed to en-
tertain. lie had said, and he begged leave to re-
peat, that he was no reformer. He was quite sure
that the House of Commons, as at present consti-
tuted, surpassed any similar body in any other
country, and he chose rather to remain in the secure
possession of these certain advantages than trust to
any theoretical views, however specious, for uncer-
tain benefits. Yet, though no reformer, he had
never opposed the punishment of corruption : but at
the same time he did not seek out cases of Forrup-
onthoef
tion with the view of gaining reformsin Parliament,
but merely in order to punish delinquents. The
the
this nature he
siou. In the cases of Grampound sad Penryn it was
apir)epereedheeitittdseodf
not
he
thought advisable to transfer the franchises to
was house
following iri subjectsg
the neighbouring hundreds; and for this reason—
that the hundreds abounded in boroughs,—that the
adjacent country, in fact, was so studded with
boroughs that no new voters could be got to
infuse life into the decayed place. lie aim fore
had voted that the franchise of Penryn should be
transferred to Leeds. His Right Hon. Friend taxed
them with inconsistency because they did not adopt,
with respect to East Retford, the same course they
had adopted in the cases of Grampoubd and Penryn.
But let him ask his Right Hon. Friend hcw long he
had entertained these opinions ? In the case of
Penryn, the late Mr. Canning, who then led the
House, so far from being inclined to advance a step,
and to give the franchise to a large town in order to

take ups defensive position, declared hi• wish and
intention that Ive should infuse new voters into Pen-
ryn from the eircurnjacent country.—(Hear, hear.)
—He did not rec)lleet whether his Right Hon..
Friend voted with Mr. Cunning on that occasion.
But his Right Hon. Friend had enlarged on the im-
portance of represen-ation to large commercial towns.
For his own part he was the last person to under-
rate the repreF•entation of the commercial inlerests ;
but when his Right Hon. Friend said that those in-
terests were no, reprerwnted in the House of Com-
Infms, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was
totally at issue wi:h trim. Ile would not detahi the
House longer. Since the former decisions of the
House on this 5 übjert, he had seen nothing to altrr
his opinion. He ••Itorild, therefore, adhere to the
vote he hail formerly givtn.

Mr. CHARLES GRANT rose amidst cries of
" Question !'' which, however, subsided directly he
was on his legs. The Right lion. Member said
that he had heard, with very great surprise, the
speech of his Right Hon. Friend who had just fiat
down. His Right Hon. Friend was not only in-
coesistent with himself, but equally inconsistent
with what had fallen from his Right lion. Friend
the Member for Liverpool. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had commenced a most angry attack upon
the speech of his Right Hon. Friend; but what was
really the position which his Right Hon. Friend had
maintained ? All he had said was, that he would take
up a defensive position; and that he thought it the
duty, the absolute and essential duty of Govern-
ment, and of the House, to watch the signs of the
times, anti to consider what were the proceedings
on the subject throughout the country. But the
Chancellor of dim Exchequer preferred not to advert
to the situation of the country, and he talked of re-
sisting this motion as a first step towards a Reform
of Parliament. For his (Mr. C. Grant's) part, he •
had seen quite enough of such resistances to first
steps in Parliament.—(Cheers.)—He well knew,
and every Member who heard him but too well
knew, what such language meant.—(Cheers.)—He
had heard every Right Hon. Gentleman now on
that bench (the Treasury Bench) use the same lan-
guage, with the same assumption of tone, and with -
the same inexorable and invincible power of resist-
ance. What had been the result ? This was
" dragging on from partial death to death." It was
unjust not to concede to just and reasonable mea-
sures.—(Cheers.)—This concession of Govern-
ment was not a lawful concession which sprung
from a great mind resolved to defend the public
cause; but it was a languid, timorous, hesitating,
half-consenting, half-suspicious concession, which
took away the grace from what was given.—(Cheers.)
His Right lion. Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had told them that he had voted for the
ti ansfer of a franchise to Leeds. His Right Hon.
Friend voted for the transfer of a borough-franchise
to Leeds. Why, he thought that his Right Hon.
Friend resisted first steps—(Hear)—that he ad-
hered to the constitutions of that House, inflexible by
persuasion, by eloquer cc, by influence of whatever
kind. But no—his Right Hon. Friend really voted
for the transfer of a franchise to Leeds.—(Cheers
and laughter.)—Well, then, there could be no ques-
tion of principle in the manner of his Right Hon.
Friend voting; and he thought that his Right Hon.
Friend, until he declared it, had forgotten his former
vote as to Leeds. Was it not, then, trifling with
the House, in a question of this nature, to say, "
steed on first steps ?"—(Cheers.)—Was it not a
mere mockery of debate to say so, when they knees'
that if there were two franchises before them, his
R girt Hon. Friend would give one of them to •
large town ? He appealed to the House if this
were the way in which so grave a question ought to
be treated.—(Hear, hear.)—But his Right Hon.
Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was ex-
tremely indignant with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Huskisson), because his Right Hon. Friend thought
some portion of the exacerbation of the conntry arose
from the conduct of the Government. Now, at the
tremendous risk of incurring the anger of his Right
Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)---
(Hear, hear, and laughter)—he begged leave to st'
that he held the same opinion. Had there not bests
meetings such as had never taken place before 1---
(Hear.)—Were there not loud complaints and great
dissatisfaction ? Were there not signs and symptoms
sufficient to make every thinking man pause ? And
yet his Right lion. Friend told them that he had
seen nothing which could induce him to alter his
past conduct. If they refused every thing , every
thing would be asked ; if they refused that which
wasjust, that which was unjust would be demanded.
Every body knew that the demands of a people un-
der excitement were always much higher than they ..
would be content with having conceded when irri-
tation had subsided.—( Hear, hear.) lie well knew'
that the people of England dreaded innovation;
that they were sincerely attached to their old insti-
tutions; and he knew also that it was judicious to
preserve them in that temper, by proceeding, in in-
dividual cases of abuse like this of East Retford, in
a manner which should be most advantageous to ei
the public interest.—(Cheers.) For while he ad- •
mitted that this was the disposition of the people,
yet he was inclined to believe that if this temperate
mode of remedying abuses were refused them, they
would be driven to attack those landmarks which
his Right Hon. Friend was so anxious—and justly
so anxious—to preserve.—(Cheers ) His Right
Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
had referred to a circumstance which took place
during Mr. Canning's Administration. But in that •
instance what. had been done ? The Government
exercised no influence, and what was the result 1--
Why the House agreed that die franchise of Pen.
rya should be transferred to Manchester, and he
acquitted the House, therefore, of all participation
in goading the people to overstep the beunds cr(
prudence in their demand. This blame did not
tacit to the House.—(flear, hear.) But what spel's
he would ask, was there in the hundred of Basset-
law ? The people of England—the British pub-
lic—justly feeling the importance of representation•
came to that House, told them of great communi-
ties that were unrepresented, and the Government
met them,—with what ? with the hundred of Brie'
setlaw.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Chancellor
of the Exchequer had told them that on a certain
occasion the iron trade had been protected in that
House. But were they thus to argue from the in'
terference of individual members on a particular
question ; or were they to appeal to the common
sense of the matter ? Ministers talked of Basses:
law, of the Dukery, and of Aristocratic influence',
he talked to them of a town with a population "j
120,000 sou's—the centre of a community of five
or six hundred thousand men, with a capital not t°
be estimated by thousands, nor by tens of thousand'
but by miliions.—(Cheers.) He would tell the Gir
yernment of the enterprise, the spirit, the wealth'
and die importance of such communities, totally test'
represented; and, placing these in the balance
against the hundred of Bassetlew, be would lease
the result to the common sense and the conscience
of lion. Members who heard him.—(The Right
Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUOi
said, that there was one point on which his Rifr
Hon. Friend had misunderstood him, lie kne
and stated that he acted on this question accordil
to precedents; the result of which were, that 01,
franchise should be transferred to the hundred, unit'
the hundred were so small, or so full of other voters'
that such transfer became unedvisuble. In this ease
the hundred did afford a sufficient number of voters,
Sir F. BLAKE said (as we understood) that
it might be an extension of repres
tho
he
hundred e dt
oo f
disfranchiseß asset: was,th hbeortohuoguhghathiotgweoouleldr.h°
yet talagstlill
don:(cr'aininloYstfekrn
ot hwe
underfranchisehi steo
1111
fie
uheunncde re
td4
bette
(Here the cries of `lQuestion" became very loui
and general).
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, when j
Mr. PEEL rose amidst cries of " Question," a°,4
after the Gallery was ordered to be cleared, Po
Right Hon. Gentleman said, I am not surprised ,tis
the anxiety of the House to come to a decision insk
a subject that has beta so fully and frequently •

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