The Sun.
London, England, 1837-06-10 00:00:00

Thy

Ch'ale_ education of the people is left to the government of
f.4nneZ, and so far from attempts being made to extend the
it. T'se, every nerve has been strained to narrow and curtail
the days he vovernment of corruption is not ended, neither are
of Toryism numbered. Arid, to sum up the catalogue
record, it is now evident to every one that the present Govern-
vitet is doomed ; every one says this to his neighbour in pri-
or) ; I cannot understand why it should not be publicly
r„...wed- We all of us well know that the termination of the
L;sent Ministry is but a question of small time ; and we look
den the early incoming of that party which we were confi-
h""Y told was for ever destroyed, as inevitable as to some it
Painfully disa‘sreeable. I will assume, Sir, by way of
)pothesis
the NI" is, and for the purposes of the present argument, that
e_ unstry arc honest in their intentions, and that when they
me into power they really desired to obtain for the people
that which the people believed to be the legitimate fruits of the
Reform Bill. The real state of the Legislature at that time
atflughf to be carefully recollected. One branch of the Legis-
:ure, viz., the llouse of Lords, were well known to be bitterly
hostile to the popular demands, and the house of Commons also
w known very imperfectly to represent the whole population
(t)ify
tw the country. Working, then, with instruments thus defec-
i courses lay before the Ministry seeking to obtain
ore;henoation that good government which they bad long de-
bsrlded• They might endeavour to win over their opponents
113:i compromise, in the hope of disarming opposition ; or they
theirt pursue a bold and determined course, and thus force
enemies and the people's enemies to yield. Unfortu-
s-nately the present Cabinet determined on the first course ;
and from the moment of their accepting office down to the
Present hour their Government has been a constant see-saw
between hostile principles. To-day they arc liberal ; to-
morrow the reverse. Aristocratic in principle ; democratic in
pretence.
So far as relates to the manner of their proceed.
4gs. The matter of their proposals has been of the same
nature. They have come forward with large promises arid
etuf;an performance. Vaguely liberal has been their talk—in-
"tive and useless have been their measures. What has
tiiee:l the necessary result? They have to the utmost angered
'r
OPPonents ; they have created an hostility that cannot be
atirPassed—fierce, bitter, and undying, it is impossible to in-
crease and apparently impossible to allay it. But they have
allowed
done any thing to inspirit their friends; -and they have
the great body of the people to become indifferent
respecting them, and exceedingly suspicious as to the ho-
nesty of their intentions. The fatal consequence of this
feeling on the part of the public is apathy respecting the
Present administration and all which may succeed it, while
°tr institutions remain unaltered. And apathy among the
People is destruction to a liberal Administration. I have
stated in this House before that the existence of any Adminis-
tration*o which dealt in compromise, and which by this means
Vic to keep our institutions such as they are, could only be
maintained by keeping the people in a state of constant excite-
snent• This then I adduced as a great evil, and I still insist
upon
, my former statement ; and I complain now, as I com-
oiained then, of the conduct of the Ministry. They have
sought to keep the people excited—not by hope, but by fear.
hey have not told them what they ought to desire, but have
!trained every nerve to point out an evil they ought to avoid.
The great terror, the standing hobgoblin, by which they have
wrought upon popular fear, has been the return of the Tories
its
power. Th S instrument of excitement has at length lost
s Power The game of the Whigs has been played to the
end, and failure and defeat now stare us in the face. The
Ar°l3le are no longer terrified by the cry of " The Tories
e coming 1" They answer, " If they do come, what
e;vd Will follow? Our position under the Whig administra-
tion is no better than it was under the Tories, and if the latter
'illtrte into power we shall be no worse off than now. We,
6 rough the instrumentality of the Whigs, have for the last
'e years lived a life of feverish hope and fear. Our hopes
havethat been bitterly disappointed ; we have begun to believe
our fears were as idle as our hopes." Such is now the
language of the people ; and the Gentlemen opposite who
tar so
eager for power are thought to be strong because
'ee Liberals become weak. They have not a greater hold
upon the affections of the nation now than they had a fear
Years since ; but the Whig Administration had lost its influ-
ence, and the cruel position of our Government is such that
11.0 Liberal Government can maintain its existence except du-
If ; a state of popular enthusiasm towards liberal doctrines.
It be asked why the people feel disappointed, I need only
teint to three cases in which, amongst others, their hopes
eve been cruelly disappointed. First, all hopes of justice to
eland are at end—at least all hope of justice being peace-
ably rendered to that country has vanished ; second, all hope
of Justice to the Dissenters of England has also gone to the
same bourne ; and lastly, the unrepresented millions see no
chance of obtaining what they desire—a share in that Go-
vernment which decides upon their lives and fortunes. In
ever?
one of these cases, which I have selected from a mass
Y way of illustration, the cause of the people's disappoint-
ment is the same ; and that is, the course of compromise,
e weak and dangerous trifling and tampering with prin.
c,,,111n,10, which the Government has followed and adopted.
They were told at lie outset of their career that this course
Would fail, and that such dishonest dealing with principle
would lead to defeat. Has not the event justified the pre-
diction tried on your knees to obtain justice for
You have ..
Ireland your real principles have been cloaked, hidden,
%huffier-Over. distorted, twisted ; degradation could not go
further than I hare witnessed on the part. of the Ministerial
advocates of justice for Ireland ; and what has been your re-
ward ? Contempt and scorn. What ought you to have done ?
What you did not dare to do. You should have raised on
high the banner of freedom for England and for Ireland. You
should have boldly told the people of both countries justice
could not be gained by either, while an irresponsible body of
hereditary legislators could at will dispose of the fortunes and
the happiness of the people. Did you do this? Never. But
You did all you were able to bring contempt upon those who
Pointed out the real seat of the mischief. You said you de-
sired to introduce responsibility into the local Government of
Ireland—so far )ou maintained the democratic dogma. But
You scornfully treated all who explained: to the people that
ne reason of the failure of your attempt was tho irresponsibi-
gitY' of the House of Lords, and so far you, after the true
v'e-saw or Whig fashion, favoured the aristocratic doctrine.
The People looked on—they began to grow angry with the
hereditary band of legislators. A word from you—a hand lifted
I.IP by one of the Ministerial leaders—is ould have created a
"1417, which the Lords could not have withstood. But, then,
hereditary privileges would have been in danger, and your or-
der would have suffered. Be it so—let us allow that your
conduct was natural. It is plain that you love those exclu-
sive privileges more than you love good Government for the
people.
and that when the two things come into collision you,
I reality, side not with the people, but with their enemies.
Let the world know this—be honest in the matter, and do not
IPif eteed to be Liberals with such feelings predominant. So
wuch for the way in which you dealt with a great principle,
121fn the happiness of Ireland was concerned. Now, let us
Tk at the conduct you pursued when the great doctrines
religious freedom were at stake here in England. The
"2. enters have petitioned this House to relieve them from
a". Impost which, they tell us presses hard upon their con-
detenees—they tell us that to maintain a Church from whose
4FtFines they dissent is to them a grievous calamity—and the
Ministry listen to their complaints, and they immediately
irtme the name of friends of the Dissenters and of religious
"tY• How do they manifest this their devotion to te cause
of religious freedom ? Do they come down to this House and
°°PerdY avow the doctrines upon which alone these imposts
i_ught to be abolished ? No ;* they assure all those who
naintain the supremacy of the Church of England, and who
r
that this proceeding as an attack upon that supremacy,
they are among the warmest friends of all the exclusive
P,rivileges of the Church of England ; they say, also, that
they are enemies of the voluntary system. Thus far they
o't.xintain the doctrines of religious tyranny. But, on the
!tiler hand, on the see-saw principle, they bring forward a
uleasure the tendency of which is to support and advance the
vtoluntary principle, and which can be properly supported only
I.Yao appeal to that principle ; so far they are friends to re-
iglous liberty. The consequence of this proceeding has been
defeat in this House—ignominious defeat, and disgust out of
doors, The people are disheartened when led by such men,
W!.ose principles they cannot understand, and whose honesty,
consequently, they begin seriously to doubt. Their conduct
concerning the franchise, and the reforms yet necessary in this
blouse has been in the same way marked by a constant wa-
irtg between opposite opinions. To the Ballot the Minis-
try have constantly shown an inveterate hostility ; to every at-
tempt to enlarge the suffrage they have also set themselves in
opposition ; and even now I am hardly certain whether the
Noble Lord is really intent on curtailing the mischievous
effects of the rate-paying clauses of the Reform 13i11.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) It is said that the people are not pre-
Pared in many matters for the true liberal doctrines, and
that if we hope to attain our ends we must keep those doe.
trines in the back ground ; and I often hear it asserted that the
extension of the suffrage is not popular; and then I hear
Larangues like the following ;—" Do not shock the feelings of
~1e people by too open an avowal of your doctrines. You must
advance step by step. You must not give to babes the food of
roe
T, n• Do not embarrass the Ministry by impracticable pro-
-141411, or foolish enthusiasm—let us gain as much as we can,
call each advance aids us in going onward." This language I
dishonest ; furthermore, it is exceedingly foolish. All
;▪ toi time you suppose your opponents blind or foolish—in fact,
3,1„°11 cane), that what you all see plainly they cannot discern. Is
tit this supremely ridiculous ? What I are we to suppose that
v'e Right Hon. Baronet opposite is not o shrewd as we ? Do
'lton believe that he and his party, here and elsewhere, do not,
e:Pl'inlY as we can, understand all the consequences of this pro-
;; they be silent—that they
and do you believe that
• not tell the world what they conceive to be the inevitable
tense
it (Nonce of any measure you propose ? Have they not done
tet d Have they not accused you of hypocrisy, of pretended
erness of eonscience—and have you not winced under
4„._ accusation for you had no answer to make. I am met,
• river, with the assertion, that we cannot carry our mea-
could es if we avow our principles." Had I no other answer I
r
thou LIAY, it is proved that you cannot carry yours, even
tortl c," You should disingenuously endeavour to hide and dis-
ta-n "leek But my real answer is, if you cannot honestly st-
arit p Your end, forego it. Be content to wait till the people
~.14br:pared to admit your principles ; labour to convert them
to "tt."' to prove your doctrines wise and just, but never seek
said to I,_n Your object by dishonest subterfuge. I shall be
nil vi Have unwisely laid bare before an unprepared people
truth errs and intentions. My answer is, that. I have told the
great The weapons by which we can advance and defend the
*tour cause of freedom must be taken from the bright ar-
as,„Zof truth, and we, like our predecessors in this mighty
seei". lent, must watch with religious caution that by no unworthy
thei we cast a shade upon their lustre, or dull the sharpness of
4ttajneidge. We must wait patiently till we can by honest means
t.he peoZe".t. ends, and. not hope or seek by wily artifice to lead
411 to acts which they would not perform did they clearly
ease the consequences that must flow from them. One ex-
The
pail
be, and often is, put forward to palliate this conduct.
y of the Tories, it is said, are so unscrupulous, that to

meet them with any chance of success you must adopt unfair
weapons also. I grant the first assertion, but utterly refuse
my assent to the conclusion drawn from it. I allow that the
Tories have been unscrupulous in their conduct both in. this
House and out of it. I allow that for the purpose of ga teng
an election, or of bringing the Liberal party into discredit
with the people, they have never scrupled to assert what tl ey
well knew to.lee false, so that it served their turn. It is true
that they, knowing such accusations to be untrue, have accused
the Ministry of being enemies to all religion, and in the next
breath have declared that they sought to set up Popery. They
have endeavoured to persuade the people that they, the Mi-
nistry, desired to pull down the churches, or convert them into
prisons or stables. Unfortunately this sort of conduct is not
confined to the Tories; would that it were I I remember
when I was opposed to a Whig candidate, that the very same
accusation was brought against myself. Be it remembered
that the Tory party represents the sinister interests of
this country. Every one that desires to live on public
plunder--every one that desires to preserve unjust privi-
leges, or irresponsible power—all who oppress the weak,
the poor, and the humble—all who seek to maintain ignorance
and prejudice among the people, every quack in religion or
polities, every one who desires to curtail the power of the
many, and to increase the power and immunities of the few,
are banded together, and form what is called the Tory party.
Now, what does it matter to men with these ends what means
they use ? Every falsehood propagated, every popular error
maintained, is so much in their favour. The errors and the
ignorance of the people have allowed these sinister interests
hitherto to flourish ; by error and by ignorance alone can
they continue. Therefore, every means which tends to main-
tain and increase ignorance is to them legitimate. Bet to the
Liberal cause, ignorance on the part of the people is fatal ;
you seek to give the people power, to make their servants re-
sponsible. This cannot be accomplished but by spreading
knowledge among them—by the propagation of truth. Pur-
sue the courses of those opposite, and you will shortly see
fasehood triumphant, and your enemies in the ascendant.
( Cries of " hear, hear," and cheers. )—Some there are, how-
ever, who say that the people are not prepared for the truth.
This estimate of their feelings I believe to be utterly false.
In the present constitution of the Legislature, a liberal
Government cannot be maintained iii power, unless the people
be enthusiastic in their favour. To create this necessary and
generous enthusiasm, a bold and determined course is needed.
Show the people something to strive for—place before their
eyes a prize worth their attainment, and you will quickly have
at your command a force which will overawe all opposition.
You must not, however, deal with great questions after the
fashion of your Church-rate policy, or that shown by you re-
specting the Church of Ireland—or as you have hitherto done
in all that relates to the improvement of this House. For my-
self, in no circumstances do I despair of the fortunes of the
liberal cause; neither do I permit myself to be blinded as to
the dangers which that cause has to encounter. A time cf
trial is coming ; and upon the determination of the present
Government it depends, whether we shall fight the battle
aided by an enthusiastic people, and a majority in this
House—or have to stand the encounter in Opposition and
in a minority, and with a people disheartened and disgusted.
Li other cases I do not despair of victory ; but it must be
evident to every one that the labours and the dangers of the
encounter will differ much in the different circumstance I
have described. Without circumlocution, then, Sir, I will
state (what every one knows to be true), that the present
Ministry will cease to be a Ministry in a few weeks, if the
people remain in their present apathetic condition. The
Gentlemen opposite are strong, not because the public s3m-
pathise with them, and because they are indifferent as re-
gards us. They (the people) have learned to feel, that little
or no difference to them results from the existence of a so-
called Liberal or a Tory Administration. This house, there-
fore, unchecked and unimpelled from without, follows the
natural bent of its inclination, and that is rather to the Tory
than the Liberal side of politics. Every day increases the
indifference of the people ; every day, therefore, strengthens
the opposite party here. But a few weeks will elapse before
their minority of five is ill have swelled to a majority, and
then those hopes which are so plainly evinced in the eager
eyes of Gentlemen opposite will be fulfilled, and they will be
introduced to the cares and to the emoluments of office.
Now, the question is, can this be prevented? My belief is
that it may. To the Ministry two courses are open—they
may yield to their fate and quietly sink into obscurity ; or,
acknowledging the error of their peat plans, they may dis-
card the Whig doctrines of compromise, assume a bolder
tone, come forward with an effective reform of the Reform
Act, thus inspirit and enlist the .masses into their ranks,
and put down their opponents by the aid of the enthusiasm of
an expectant people. The timid, the irresolute, and the
dishonest will say that this is a visionary scheme—they will
say, as they have said, that the apathy and indifference of
the people have resulted from their dislike to change, and
from the belief that Ministees have already gone too far.
I know this is a favourite doctrine, and no persons have
been so sedulous in the propagation of it as the Ministers
and their immediate adherents. The doctrine has been ap-
plied as a battery against their Radical supporters. The
Ministry, and more especially that section of them which is
publicly believed to lean to Toryism, have on all occasions
been eager to express contempt as well as hatred for the
opinions and the characters of their Radical supporters.
The millions of this country, I mean the unrepresented mil-
lions, have no confidence in the honesty of Ministers, and this
doubt has been created and fostered by the whole tenour of
their conduct respecting the demands of the unrepresented
masses. On all occasions they have been repudiated with
scorn and openly avowed disgust. Thus while one large
section of the people have been rendered indifferent anos
ther, still more numerous, have been made active enemies.
This has been the effect of your doctrine respecting
going too far.—( Hear, hear.) Whatever may be the
confidence of Ministers in their own opinions, or their
doubts respecting what I now advance, this much is certain
—back they cannot go ; if they stand still they are ruined ;
their only chance of success is by going forward. If they
will heartily and cordially co-operate with the Radical party
they may again have the support of an enthusiastic people,
may retain their present position as leaders of the Liberal
cause, and run a brilliant as well as useful career. This charge
may be made with ease, and without injury to their character
as honest politicians. The headlong obstinacy of the Tory
party here, and in the House of Lords, their signal and loudly
declared contempt of the popular demands, their refusal to be
parties to any compromise, compel you, as friends of the
people, to pursue a new conduct, to adopt as stern and un-
yielding a principle as their own—and since they will not
yield to the mild remonstrance and requests of the people, you
must now demand as a right, not to be refused, what you have
hitherto sought as a favour. And now, as an earnest of a new
course of conduct, and a commencement thereof, I would in-
treat the Noble Lord solemnly to consider his position,- and
grant the inquiry. He may soon, if he pursue this course,
contemn the taunts and threats of his opponents, secure in the
love and respect of the nation. Brat if he should determine
not to adopt this plan, then his Ministerial reign will be quickly
over, and he and his friends will be thrown aside as tools worn
out and useless, and he and they will very soon be utterly for-
gotten. In the present state of parties in this House and of
the Government the whole machinery of legislation is at a
dead stop. I, therefore, sir, ask the [louse to resolve itself
into a Committee, for the purpose of taking into consideration
the state of the nation.
Col. THOM PSON seconded the amendment.
Dr. L US HINGTO N spoke to the following effect :—Sir,
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman claims for himself the merit
of an extraordinary attachment to the principles of liberty and
of liberal Government. Sir, I will not yield to him or to any
man in that attachment ; but experience has shown me that
the cause of liberty and
of liberal Government is more prac-
tically advanced by other means than by loud professions of
attachment to that cause, while the Hon. and Lsarned Mem-
m
ber
ee principlesaa sr un er ed t
Gentlemanl
which e t tendency dhe te c r
pretends
has
t
at the same time impugns and endeavours to destroy every
whichthoughtL
js
thold
is
Irt,oio
pseor carry
dear.to pi nu to effect the very
put into thee n einuo,uatthi and
of his Majesty's Government when they came into office decla-
rations of the vast economical and
other reforms, of their
determination to do justice to Ireland, &c. &c. .Sir, I do not
remember that when they came into power they made any
such extensive pledges. I du remember that there was
aoduoeptpionig nto
on which they insisted—namely, the propriety of
certain measures respecting Ireland. The Hon. and
Learned Member says, " You cannot du justice to Ireland,
your power as a Government is effete, and you can do no-
thing to benefit the people of Ireland." Sir, the proper
answer to such an assertion is an appeal to the feelings of
the people of Ireland with reference to his Majesty's pre-
sent Government. Have the people of Ireland complained
eoftoliteryc?ondia
conduct of
theo
fhis Majesty's present Government to that
yeo ui n
e intendedlinatipeople of Ireland said to his Majesty's
Government," You came into office full of professions of
what
or atth t oa dos t
he
onbef.oern
wanting,lreland
y eitherou
havetl the power
done
nothing for us ?" Onh
of their. gratitude for declarations of bodiceosntfrary, have we not seen nu-
merouswntdihmet ex-
pressivepheiosplAelajoefstylr,:lapnrdesent
tveirtnmweonutldhabvee done for
clorenrldauci've to the interests and
that and of their conviction
benefit of that country that that Government
power ? How, therefore, can the Hon. andis,lerouruld remain in
Learned Member
g
for Bath say that Ireland has derived no advantage from the
present Government, when it is evident that the
ver
f
er
is the truth? So much, Sir, for Ireland. What myorreevdeorsees
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman say ? " Mark what you
have done ; or rather what you have neglected to do. You
have not had the courage to come forward like men, and effect
the overthrow of the Church of England, and therefore you
are deprived of the aid and support of a great majority of the
people of England." Now, in the first place, if his Majesty's
Ministers had come forward with any proposition the effect of
which was to overthrow the Church of England, although
backed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, they would
most unqueasionably have found themselves in a miserable mi-
nority, both in this [louse and in the country. The opinion on
the subject which the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath
alone entertains (for although he uses the pronoun " we," I am
convinced that he does not speak the sentiments of any man in
the House but himself), is one which I have no hesitation in
declaring I never could, under any circumstances, be induced
to adopt. I never could consent to any measure the object of
which was the
destruction of the Church of England. I tell
the Hon. and Learned Member-- and I defy him to contra-
dict me—that among the whole of the Dissenters of England,
from those who are the furthest removed in doctrine from the
Church of England, to those who most l near y approximate to
that doctrine—from the Unitarians down to the I d ndepen ents—
there is scarcely an exception, there is not one in 658, the mi-
nority in which I am persuaded the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Beth is on this point ; there is, in fact, perfect unani-
mity in favour of the measure of his Majesty's Government,
and a perfect willingness to receive it as a measure satisfac-
tory to the most scrupulous conscience, and giving the Dis-
senters all they ask, wish, or require. Again, the lion. and

Learned Member fur Bath seems to consider it to be the duty
of his Majesty's Government to drive on such messeures as
may lead to a collision between this House and the House of
Lords. Now, on that point I differ from the Hon. and Learned
Member in toto. If, after a long series of measures, and after
the people of England have unequivocally showed their appro-
bation of such measures, they should continue to be r.jected
by the House of Lords; and if, after ample time and consi-
deration, it should appear to be impossible that the present
constitution of the House of Lords could continue compatibly
with the welfare of the kingdom, and that something must be
done to remedy the evil, I am not one to say that that some-
thing ought not to be done. But, Sir, lam desirous of going
on by degrees ; I am desirous of avoiding such a proceeding
until the last moment ; I am desirous of avoiding it until it ap-
pears to be a matter of unavoidable necessity, called for by
the unanimous, or almost the unanimous, voice of the people.
But what is the course advised by the lion. and Leartied
Member for Bath ? What is the nostrum which he recom.
mends to his Majesty's Government, to enable them to re-
gain the confidence of the people of England? To go to the
utmost extent of his own theoretical notions ; without the
slightest regard to evils which might flow from such a proceed-
ing. Sir, I have had much experience in this House and I
have always found that the men who in the commencement of
their career professed the most, that the men who boasted most
of their singular and extraordinary zeal, that the men who as-
sumed the possession of peculiar correctness of conduct, that
the men who treated with contempt the efforts of those who
were engaged in the same cause as themselves,—l have always
found that in the end such men proved the weakest supporters,
nay, the bitterest enemies, of the very principles of which they
considered themselves the warmest friends.

Colonel THOMPSON observed that the Hon. and Learned
Civilian seemed to think that his Hon. and Learned Friend
the Member for Bath was alone in his opinions ; that he was
like the fat soldier who, on being questioned who he was, re-
plied that he was the skeleton of the 102 d regimen to" foot..—
(A laugh.) Now, that was not the case. He (Colonel
Thompson) was sure that he only expressed the sentiments of
his Hon. and Learned Friend when lie stated that the com-
plaint made by his Hon. and Learned Friend and himself—if
he were addressing the House in Greek he would use the dual
number—that his Majesty's Government bad by their conduct
let down themselves and those who had been disposed to sup-
port them. Their measures came out dribble, dribble, dribble;
and if any change which might occur in the chapter of acci-
dents should keep them in their places, their measures would
still come out dribble, dribble, dribble.

Mr. O'CONNELL was at a loss to know whether the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was serious or not.
He made one allusion—that of letting out the fire lest the
steam should burst the vessel, which all who had heard of a
recent dreadful calamity must agree in thinking the Hon.
Meather for Hull ought especially to have abstained from.
ad the Hon. and Gallant Member for Hull wish that the
steam should be kept up till an explosion took place, from
which calamities more disastrous than those which had oc-
curred at Hull should follow? He learned, with regret, that
the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath forgot all those evils
which his Majesty's Government of the present day had pre-
vented in Ireland. Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
really and seriously wish to see the Tories in power--that
party which for centuries had misgoverned Ireland ? He
wished him to confine himself to the state of Ireland. His
Majesty's Government had directed their attention to the
cause of Ireland; and for the first time they had a Govern-
ment which regulated their patronage by a sense of the real
merits of individuals. There had been two appointments of gen-
tlemen as King's Counsel who were not of the party of the King's
Government, but who, on the contrary, were opposed to it.
The gentlemen who had been appointed King's Counsel were
Mr. Blake and Mr. Collins, and the appointments had been
made within the last few weeks. None could be more just.
Would the Tories have done this to those who were in the
ranks of their enemies ? Was such a thing ever done by that
Tory Government whom the Hon. and Learned Member for
Bath would support ? The present Government, however,
had done this, and they had given to the people of Ireland an
opportunity of showing the readiness of the people of Ireland
to support his Majesty's Government, who, although they
were not able to do all they wished for Ireland, yet showed
the disposition to maintain the due execution of the law. The
people of Ireland were most ready to give up their most fe-
vourite objects to give the present Government the means of
carrying out a variety of great public measures which they had
in view. Had not the present Government passed the Bill
for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland,
which they had sent up to the House of Lords?—(Hear,
hear, hear.) And was the Government to be blamed for
not doing more, when these great measures were denied
to them because they were the people of Ireland, and
because the Tory faction were delighted to report the sar-
castic expressions of the Honourable and Leaned Member
for Bath? The Honourable and Learned Member for Bath
blamed the Government for not being stronger ; and with
equal reason might Sangrado, who was always bleeding his
patients, blame them for not being stronger. He felt it his
duty, in the name of the people of Ireland, to protest agaiast
his Majesty's Government being blamed for not doing more.
Mr. HUME hoped it would long be the privilege of that
House, that those who entertained opinions different from
others should be at liberty to express them fearlessly. His
Honourable and Learned Friend had said that the Honour-
abble Member for Bath accused the Ministry of being weak,
and that he likened him to that practitioner of old who, whilst
taking blood from his luckless patients, blamed them for not
getting stronger, Though be (Mr. Hume) did not feel the
justness of the application of this simile, yet he agreed in
many of the statements of his Honourable Friend, whilst he
differed from him in many others. His Hon. Friend, the
Member for Bath, never said that he wished to see the To-
ries in power. lie stated that the Ministry at the commence-
ment of their career promised to support certain public nice-
surest, and to carry out those general principles upon which
they received the support of thous who sat on that (the Mi-
nisterial) side, and that the people out of doors complained
that they had not done so. He (Mr. Hume) contended that
they had not done so. He thought that they had not taken
those measures which the Reform Bill requised. Then, his
Hon. Friend had argued, that by not supporting the measure
for triennial Parliaments they had not carried into effect the
intentions of those who advocated the Reform Bill, and had
thereby lost many of their friends. Aud in this view of the
case, he (Mr. flume) concurred. He ( Mr. Hume) could not
shut his eyes to the fact that there were 300 in that House
opposed to his Majesty's Government. He knew that his
Majesty's Ministers did everything in their power to secure
popular rights, but as often as they did so their efforts were
met by a negative. With reference to the Church-rates Bill,
if it were again frustrated elsewhere, still, hrving passed that
House, they owed a great meed of praise to the Government
fiir havinggebrought forward that measure, a measure which
went to put an end to that state of degradation to which the
Dissenters were exposed, to support a religion in which they
did, not concur. He did not believe that Isis Majesty's Go-
vernment ever advocated the voluntary principle; and he was
glad to find that they did not intend to do so. He denied the
allegation repeatedly made, that the Church rates regulation
measure did not give satisfaction to the Disseuters. He was
quite sure that his Hon. and Learned Friend was not the
person to deny every merit to his Majesty's Government for
having brought forward and carried the English Municipal
Corporations Bill, and for having sent the Irish 3limicipal
Bill up to the Lords. Again, with reference to Ireland, he
rejoiced in the appointment of the Earl of Mulgrave as Lord.
Lieutenant of Ireland.—(Cries of " Hear.") He believed
that the Government would be strengthened every day by
strengthening the Reform Bill, in giving protection to every
voter in the exercise of his franchise by the Ballot. He ad-
mitted that the majorities in that House had decreased ; but
the reverse would have been the case, if the Government had
pursued a course more in consonance with the great principles
of the Reform Bill. With reference to the Tories, he did not
believe that the country would bear with a Tory Government.
He wished to see the House of Lords bombarded with good
measures. He hoped his Majesty's Government would not
disregard the truths which had been told them.

Lord J. RUSSELL trusted he might be permitted to put
in a few words in the way of excuse, or palliation, or, it might
b', justification, as to the delay which had occurred in the pro-
gress of the business of the House. The fact was, that some-
times one and sometimes another lion. Gentleman had notices '
on the books, and they were heard till they had occupied two
or three dozen evenings, which were fixed for the discussion of
various measures ; and having so occupied the time of the
House, these Hon. Gentlemen then joined in chorus, and said,
‘‘ \Vhat a shameful thing it is that this or that measure is
not pressed ! \Vhat a dreadful delay there is is the public
business I We are already arrived at the month of June, and
those measures of the Government which are deemed to be
most necessary are not yet passed !" Now, he might say with
regard to the particular course which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had adopted that night, if he were to use that lien.
Gentleman's phraseology, that his course was a dishonest one,
in pretending to do one thing whilst he was doing another.
That was the very charitable interpretation which he put on
the course of his Majesty's Government, and he had questioned
the motives of their actions. In the whole speech, however,
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he never got a cheer but
from those whom he himself represented to be the greatest
enemies of public liberty. Then he (Lord John Russell) said,
if he were to impute motives to others as rashly as the Hon.
Member for Bath did, he should say that his course of pro-
ceeding, while he pretended to aid the cause of public li-
berty, was to endeavour to obstruct the course of those who
were endeavouring to work out every possible good,
.and
to oppose something which was impracticable and impossible,
and by such means to aid his own cause, and to bring
about a policy less favourable to the public liberty than
that which was now adopted. He, however, attributed
no such motives to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; and
he begged, with all humility, as an older Member, if not an
older soldier, to assure him, that persons who entertained dif-
ferent sentiments, whether they were those of the extreme of
democracy, ultra-Toryism, or moderate Whigism or Toryism
did honestly maintain those opinions. All did that which they
thought best for the public good ; and it tended not to the
preservation of good temper in that House to throw out mo-
tives of hypocrisy—of the attempt to do one thing, whilst
they did another. Unless the Hon. Gentleman wished these
imputations of motives to be retorted upon himself, it would
be much better that he should refrain from them' —( Hear,
hear.) Buc he must be permitted to touch upon two. or three
topics on which the accusations of the Hon. Gentleman rested.
He said that the course pursued by his Majesty's Government
was of no effect—that it ended in their doing nothing for the
public good. He would mention a subject to which the Hon.
Member had adverted that night, he meant the ques-
tion with respect to Ireland. He must declare that, in
his opinion, whatever it might be proper to do in respect to
England, either as to legislation or the administration of
her laws, still this evils of Ireland were far more deeply rooted,
and that some attention was necessary both on the part of
the Legislature and the Administration, to act wisely and ge-

ne .Jusly towards Ireland, than to inn oduce improvements
which might vet be wanting in England. He did say that if
they utterly failed for Ireland—if their Adrnin istration were
weak, ineff,Ttive, tyrannical, or remiss—if tb ey had not suc-
ceeded, or could not succeed, in establishing those principles
of legislation which they thought ought to he established to-
wards Ireland—then indeed they had failed in the main pur-
poses of the Government of the United Kingdom.—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to Ireland he would ask, did they stand
in that position? Had the people of Ireland called for their
dismissal—had they asked that his Majesty should accept their
resignations? Was not the opinion of the people of Ireland,
or of the greatest portion of them, at least, favourable to
the present administration of affairs in that country? But
there were opponents to that administration ! There were,
no doubt, opponents to that administration, who would not
have refrained from bringing charges of great weight, if they
could be substantiated, as to the conduct of the G overnment.

Thee with respect to the legislative measure which they were
about to have laid before the House that night, that Bill un-
fortunately had long been a subject of discussion in Parlia-
ment, and a subject of difference in that House and between
the two Houses of Parliament. There was likewise a Bill of
great importance, to which that House had given a patient
and laborious attention, with respect to the introduction of
Poor-laws into Ireland; in regard to which, as far as it had
gone into Committee, the Howe had agreed to it, end had in-
vestigated it most diligently. There was another measure
which they bad passed for Ireland, and which had gone up
to the other House, namely, the Municipal Corporations (Ire-
land) Bill. He need not go into the nature of that measure ;
but he did not think that a Government which had brought
forward the Municipal Corporations Bill, which had been
passed by that House by large nujoritiee—the Poor-law.
Bill, the Bill for the settlement of the Tithe question, and
the better regulation of ecclesiastical revenues in Ireland,
could be said to a Government which had been remiss in
their duty. Bat then the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man said that these measures led to nothing; but he thought
the Hon. Gentleman was premature in this his prophecy. His
(Lord J. Russell's) opinion was, that upon subjects of this im-
portance (however much he might disapprove of the course
taken by the other House of Parliament)—he did not think
there was a disposition in the other House to refuse to consider
seriously these measures, with a view to the settlement of the
subjects to which they referred. They maintained, indeed,
that all these measures should be taken together. That was
not his (Lord John Russell's) view of the Caw; but he could
conceive that that view might be taken of the question ; and
he would still contend that the House of Commons ought to
pass all the Bills then before them in the best form they could
and to send them up to the other House, leaving their Lord-
ships to deliberate upon them. He saw no cause to despair,
or to imagine that they should not be able to come to some
agreement on these matters. He did not agree with the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman that the term " irresponsible body"
was to be applied to the House of Lords. His opinion was that
they waited for and did feel that they were personally acting in
the face of public opinion, and that if they should be persuaded
that the great mass of public opinion was increasing in favour
(as he thought it would be) of a course of justice to Ireland,
they would yield to the force of public opinion. He was sa-
tisfied that the House of Lords would feel the weight of their
responsibility by adopting a contrary course, and they would
never wish to engage in an attempt to thwart that opinion.
If he (Lord J. Russell) did not entertain that expectation, he
must come to such opinions as the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber (Mr. Roebuck) entertained—he must come to the opinion
that the (louse of Commons ought not to agree to any amend-
ment or to any measure proposed by the House of Lords—
(Hear)—he roust came to the opinion that the object of the
House of Commons ought to be to ruin the House of Lords in
public estimation, and to establish some elective body in its
stead. Those, lie believed, were the objects at which the
Hon. and Learned Member aimed.
Mr. ROE BUCK—I do not wish to substitute an elective
body for the existing House of Lords—l wish to abolish that
body altogether.—(Laughter.)
Lord.l-01IN RUSSELL—To abolish the House of Lerds
altogether. He begged the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man's pardon for having so far misinterpreted him.--( Hear.)
He was not precisely aware of the exact opinion which the
llon. and Learned Gentleman entertained upon that particular
point. He thanked the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, there-
fore, for the interruption, and fur the candour with which he
expressed his opinion. But he (Lord John Russell) must de-
clare as frankly, that he as totally disagreed from the propo-
sition to abolish the House of Lords altogether, as he did
from the proposition to make them an elective body.—( Hear,
hear.) He did not look upon the abolition of the (louse of
Lords as the millenium they were to reach.—( Hear, hear.)
With respect to Church-rates and some other measures, the
Hon. and Learned Member seemed to think that the Govern-
ment had not done enough to conciliate the Dissenters, and
that with the view of securing the affections of the people
the Government ought to have opted the voluntary princi-
pprleilcip
.1--(iell__:,e7, hear.) Upon that point he (Lard J. Russell)
must declare that his opinion was not in favour of the voluntary
Cheers)—and further, that if the adoption of the
voluntary principle were necessary to conciliate the favour of
the public, he for one should not be prepared to adopt it.—
(Cheers.) But lie totally disagreed with the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman that such a course was necessary to conciliate the
opinion of the people of this country.--( Hear, hear.) His
lislief was that the people of England were in favour of the
Established Church, arid not in favour of the voluntary prin.
eiple.—(Cheers.) His opinion likewise was that the Dls-
senters were generally satisfied with the measure introduced
upon the subject of Church-rates.—(Hear, hear.) The I
Hon. and Learned Gentleman charged the Government, in
the first place, with not going far enough, and then endea-
voured to cast ridicule upon them fur the smallness of their
majorities; but did not the Hen. and Learned Gentleman see
that the two reproaches were quite inconsistent with each
other? As the House was then composed, if they proposed
measures that would satisfy the Dissenters, their m ijorities
were small : to secure large majorities, which, according to
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, ought to be the first
duty of a Government, they must propose measures which
would not be so agreeable to the Dissenters. He might
mention, however, that the majority of five would have been
a majority of six, had it nut been fur the Hon. and Gallant Odi-
cer the seconder of the present proposition, who took that op-
portunity to be absent from his place. The view which he
( Lord John Russell) took of the ditty of a Govern-
ment was this : that they ought to bring forward such mea-
sures as they thought calculated to benefit the country—that
having proposed them to Parliament, they should rely upon
the support which they might receive from the Legislature
and from the opinion of the public.—( Hear, hear.) Such had
been the course pursued by the present Government.—( Hear. )
I will take the liberty of mentioning to the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, that during the time that we have sat on
this side of the House, amid more especially within the last
few years, we have carried a repeal of the Test and Corpora-
tion Acts—( Hear, hear) —which drew a degrading distinction
between Dissenters and members of the Established Church.
( Ilear, hear.) I would remind him that we have carried the
Reform Act. I would remind him that we have passed the
Poor-law Amendment Act.—(Hear, hear, hear.) I would •
remind him further, that we have carried a measure for the
' reform of Municipal Corporations—( Hear, hear, hear)—ano-
ther for the commutation, of tithes in England ; and an Act
for the total and entire abolition of negro slavery.—(Great
cheering.) So much fur matters of explanation. With re-
spect to administration, I will not now go into details to show
that as rsgards expenditure and taxation we have fully kept up
to the promise of retrenchment male by Lord Grey when he
took office.—( Hear.) It is a glory upon which I shall always
pride myself, that I have acted first with Lord Grey, and since
with Lord Melbourne, in carrying these important measures—
( clear)—and if some other measures, partaking of the same
character, have not yet reached their consummation, I do not
see that that circumstance justifies the censure of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, when it is remembered that two-
thirds only of the Session have yet been gone through, and
that many of these measures are rapidly advancing towards
completion.—( Hear.) Ido not think it justifies the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, who has never done anything for the
country—(Cheers)—who has never carried any Act, nor, as far
as I know, proposed any measure by which the liberties or in-
terests of this country might be promoted--(Checrs)—l say I
do not think it becomes him to come forward now and abuse
us, so little of his own performance to place in the ba-
lance against ours—( Renewed cheering)—to make- himself
the accuser, and, with bitter and ironical sarcasm, seem to be
aiding the cause of liberty, while, in fact, his reproaches, if
they had any effect at all, could have no effect but this—to
iminzaegrfostrthimiel,lcvuaanls rmdeand steady progress of Reform, and, by snaking
men despair of that calm and steady progress, induce them to
go back, I will not say to retroceseion, but to a positive stand-
ing
that
those who
have
always the guidance
dangerous,
t they would
earryi'tns said
no
sfur-
ther.—_( Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. S. CR. AWFO RD, which were
not audible,
The question was put, and the motion negatived without a
division.