The Sun.
London, England, 1830-04-02 00:00:00

a

lid 'ft,AateS)l,lyaniatatlcerttel whtn catne to L!
tefore the House of Lords. At last, in 1815, an
,eat ties passed which first introduced he Trial by Jury in
cases in Scotland. At that time there existed.
4auch prejudice against the Trial by Jury, and it was
necessary tzi proceed with extreme caution. It was
therefore determined to introduce the system by
serene Of tt separate court, at the head of which was
pieced an individual of great knowledge, well acquainted
with the practice of the trial by Jury iu England. This
separate Jury Court continued 'for some time to try only
rspeeial cases sent from the Courts of Law. It was soma,
Imwerer, found that Scotebmen were not so averse to the
Slew mode of trial as had been apprehended, and it was
'determined to extend its application. In 1819 an Act
'was passed to authorize the Court of Session to send to the
'Jury °Ant other c tses besides special ones to be tried.
From the moment when the Trial by Jury, in. its limited
lfortits was tiret introduced, it had, been intended that the
'system should, when the proper moment arrived, be united
‘e6th the ordinary iedirature of the country. That fact
aPPearcd upon the face of all the report! made to Podia-
uneut its teenexion with the subject, and also on the face
`Ol. Ant Of Parliament themselves. As late as 1825, an
-Act-pasted to extend the power of the Jury Court. in a
',variety-of ways, and the operation of that Act was limited
10 the 30th of June, 1830, at which time it was con.
.ceived that the union of the Jury system with the ordi-
nary judicature might be accomplished. A commission
.appointed to inquire- bat., the subject had also reported that
elle • union might take place in 1830. For that purpose
Ire was now about to move for leave to introduce a Bill.
'The people of Scotland were perfectly reconciled to the
`lyriel by /cry. He would now proceed to state generally
tthe protieions of the Bill. It was in the first place pro-
-1)0mA that the union should take place on the sth of
'October next, which might be considered the close
r.'if the legal year, as all the circuits would then be
.. Great care had been taken to provide that all the
'easest hitherto by law tryable in the Jury Court should
In future be tried by Juries in the Court of Session.
'Care+tod dist, been taken to increase instead of diminish
the reambee of these cases. The mode of trying issues
'would be by the direction of the two heads of the first
and second division. Upon that point, too, advantage
wonlii.be taken elf the services of the Lord Chief Com-
missioner whitest he should be able to act. The House
was .aware that the venerable Judge was approaching four-
s" Years of age, anti therefore could not long be pre-
'"ed tar his country. He likewise was to direct issues
`the first three years after the union should take place.
'et was also intended that all the clerks in the present Jury
Court should, upon the union taking place, be removed
into the Court of Session. Another part of the measure
referred to the Court of Admiralty of Scotland. In .
caftan. days Scotland had a Lord High Admiral, like
-Exasland, who presided over the administration of justice
in 'the Admiralty Court. At the period of the union with
England, a special clause was introduced into the articles,
'Conveying all the Admiralty jurisdiction, and then fol-
lowed the words—" The Court of Admiralty of ecatland
is to remain in the same manner after the Union as now,
'until the Parliament of Great Britain shall snake such
revelations and alterations as shall be judged expedient for
tbe whole united kingdorn, so as there be always continued
In 'Scotland a Court of Admiralty, such as that in
.England, for determination of all maritime cases, re-
lasing to private rights in Scotland, competent to the
jurisdiction of the Admiralty Court, subject nevertheless to
such regulatioos and alterations as shall be thought proper
to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain." The Ad-
miralty jurisdiction had continued to the present day as it
lad been left by the articles of Union. The measure
about to he introduced abolished the Admiralty jurisdiction
altogether. This could not be considered an objectionable
proceeding. The Admiralty Court had never been a su-
perior Court, nor had it possessed any of the advantages of
local Courts. If a poor sailor at the extremity of Scot-
land wanted to prefer a claim for the sum of 30s. he was
obly;ed at present to proceed to Edinburgh to assert his
Mann. It was proposed that, in future, the Sheriff
sabould :decide in eases where the sum sought to be reco-
vered was under 251. ; and that claims of a higher amount
than 251. should be decided by the Judges of the Court of
Session in the ordinary way. This, so far as he was able
Ito form an opinion from the statements of individuals con.
'versant with these subjects, would be a very useful altera-
tion ; at it would save both trouble and expense to those
`who went seeking justice, and he would maintain that no
'objection:could be offered to the remodelling of this Court,
on the ground that it was an innovation of the articles of the
Union. It effected nothing of the kind. He read in the
articles of the Union, that the people of Scotland should have
such a Court to decide on maritime causes ; that they
should have justice rendered them without being
obliged to have recourse to England- fore. it. Now, his
proposition secured that object. He, in fact, gave them a
more efficient court than they possessed at present, when
he shifted the Admiralty business to the Court of Session,
at the same time that lie established a competent authority
to decide the smaller causes. On these grounds it was
that be meant to propose to the House to abolish this
Court, and to substitute the Court of Session, and the
sheriffs to transact the business in its stead. The next
jurisdiction to which he had to allude was that of the Con-
siatorial Court. That Court stood in a very peculiar si-
tuation, and had a most enlarged jurisdiction. It was
not like the Ecclesiastical Courts of this country, with
whose decisions the common law could not interfere. The
decisions in the Scotch Ecclesiastical Court were always
subject to the review of the Court of Session. In all
eases of great importance, the general practice had been,
first, to proceed before the Ecclesiastical Court, then to
carry it into the Court of Session, and finally, into the
inner council of the Court of Session ; so that it was de-
cided three different times. The jurisdiction of this Court
might be stated to be two•fold ; first, as related to the ad-
ministration of wills, by which the executors of deceased
persons arrive at a settlement of their estates and effects.
This duty was performed during the whole course of
the year, and that part of the jurisdiction would not
be altered by this Bill. But, for reasons which he
would presently give, it would be necessary to re-model
the other part of this jurisdiction. In the Consis,
tonal Court, the Judges had a most important class
of cases to adjudicate. First, they had to act in the
ease of wills; secondly, to decide questions of legitimacy—
to adjudicate in actions, in which persons might be de-
clared legitimate, or held to be bastards; third, they had to
decide with respect to the force of the marriage tie, when
it was good, and when it was null and void. They had
jurisdiction, not only in cases of divorce a mensa et thoro,
but also is cases of complete divorce ; which, in that court,
might require four proceedings. Such were the matters
in which the Court of Commissaries had jurisdiction, their
proceedings being subject to the review of a higher court.
Now, lie meant to confer the whole jurisdiction in a!1 that
class of eases on the Court of Session. That was the
alteration which he wished to propose. He could show
the House that an alteration in the system would be bene-
ficial, and the necessity of it could be defended on good
grounds. N° appeal was allowed in England fro,,the
adjudication of the Ecclesiastical Court ; but in Scotland
the Court of Session might be applied to; the case was
thus stopped, and a great degree of litigation was the con-
sequence. The Act of Parliament, passed in the reign of
James V., vested this jurisdiction with the power of judg-
ing in divorce cases, and where the parties were not situ-
fled with the decision they had an appeal to the Court of
Session, and the judges of that court were authorised to
determine the same. In all these cases, the Judges, accord-
ing to the Act of Parliament, bad full jurisdiction given to
then,. They possessed that power indirectly at present,
but he Pioposed that it should be restored to them directly,
and he thought, looking to the importance of the cases brought
before this Court, its duties ought to be at once confided
to the hands of the most learned and able men. The
duties of that Court, with respect to marriage and legiti-
niacY, were of so important a character as called, in his
opinion, for an alteration in its construction ; and sure he
was, that if some plan were not speedily proposed for that
Olect, and a proper course adopted, the Legislature would
be obliged to provide a different and more extensive re-
medy than he contemplated. He said this the more rea-
dily, because he felt every wish to do ample justice to
those now connected with the Court to the constitution of
which he objected, lie feared that the system gave rise
to much collusion between parties who wished to be sepa•
rated.--(11„r.
)—This he thought might be inferred from
a document in his possession. From that document it ap-
pared, that, in the three last years, the number of di-
vorces obtained was
4,8 ; in these cases appearances were
entered for only nine of the defendants; so that in 89
cases of divorce the snit was carried on by only one of the
parties. These suits for divorce were not solely instituted
onnnthe ground of adultery; but on other accounts; for
f
_Gnu:adherence, when the parties had not lived together for
the
_tz,rs as man, and wife. When such was the case,
• e would easily see how soon a divorce might be
obtained, and the great number of actions that must arise.
Nzri,onw,hte,,n lxive,orlbedtt:ionvi.ned this jurisdiction to the Court of
this facility of a great measure, put an end to
be thought that malng divorces. By taking this course
y of these cases would be stop-
ped—that they would not be heard of—and thus the mar-
riage tie would he placed in
a
re-
peated; that he made these
remarksunore meaningwsecutrheonsttate. H e
tothrow a doobt on the persons whoat present filled that
situation, and who, he believed, discharged their duty fairly.
be 'only objection he had heard to the alteration was, that

it would put poor people to a heavy expense in , procuring
divorce. He ras arreieus that justice should be adminis,
tered as strictly and as cheaply as possible ; yet, when 'he
came to look at the numerous actions of divorce that came
before these commissaries, lie was inclined to think that
some benefit might arise from the increase of expense.—
And he might be allowed to observe, that where a case was
appealed against, and was heard both before the Consistorial
Court and the Court of Session, the expense was much
greater than it would be under the altered system. He had
learned from a gentleman very well known as a writer of
the signet, that the expenses, if the . system were altered,
would be about 591. 135., and at present it was upwards
of 201. if decided in the first instance. If, therefore, relief
could be obtained for such a sum as that, he thought there
could be no good ground of complaint. It was a question
whether cases of this kind ought to be remitted to a
jury, from the nature of the facts to be discussed.—
He did not mean to exclude the intervention of a juty,
but be would leave it to the Judges to decide what cases
the)S might think fit to he tried in that mode. Ore
of the present commissaries, who were in number four,
might be empowered to remit all necessary proofs to
the Court of Session. It would thus be seen that this
Court would not be entirely removed: Three Judges would
be done away, and one would 'remain. He admitted that
this was a very dry subject—(Hear, hear)—and he was
sorry to be obliged to detain the House so long—(Hear,
hear)—but it was matter which excited great interest in
that part of the country to which he belonged. It was
thus proposed to transfer to the Court of Sessions the busi-
ness of the Admiralty, and of the Consistorial Courts ;
and he had next to state, that it was intended to reduce
two of the Judges of the Court of Session. He was under
the :necessity of stating why two might be reduced, and
also to assign the reason why a greater number could not
be spared. It was peculiarly necessary, with respect to
Scotland, to advance some reason why that ancient Court,
which lied consisted of fifteen members for several hundred
years, should now be decreased. That Court was esta-
blished on its present footing in 1537, in the reign 'of
James V. It was enacted, that it should be composed of
fifteen Judges, with the Lord Chancellor, making sixteen;
with the power to add four others to their number. This
was the first foundation of the Court of Session ; and
accordingly, at the period of the Union, it consisted of
the:fuil number—the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Presi-
dent and fourteen Judges. They sat at eight in the
morning, and rose at eleven. The 19t.1i article of the
Union set forth, " That the Court of Session, or GA.
lege of Justice, do, after the Union, and notwithstanding
thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is
now constituted by the laws of that kingdom, and with the
same authority and privileges as before the Union, sub-
ject nevertheless to such regulations for the better adminis-
trader] f justice as shall be made by the Parliament of
Great Br:tie." Now, it was under the powers given by
this article, that he thought the Legislature was warranted
in making the reduction which lie proposed. That the
Court should remain " as it is now constituted" did not
mean that it should continue to have the same members.
This was nut only apparent from the wording of the ar-
ticle itself, but from what happened after the Union. In
1 723, in the reign of George 1., only 16 years after the
Union, it was declared, that whenever the places of four
of the Judges of the Court of Session, or one or more of
them, became vacant, no presentations should be made by
his Msjesty to such vacancy or vacancies. They, there-
fore, showed that Parliament had a power completely com-
petent to alter the number.—( Hear, hear.)—.Changes had
taken place, and 15 Judges, who previously sat in one
Court, presided in two Courts now. By an Act passed
in 1813, the Court was formed into two divisions, of
five each, and thus it stood until 1825; then, in conse-
quence of an Act of the Legislature, those divisions be-
came four in number, and consequently increased a Ses-
sion. It now appeared to Ministers that that increase of
the civil law officers was totally unnecessary, and that two
of them might he set aside altogether. This conclusion
was come to, because it appeared from papers which
lie had moved for in that House, that a greater quantity
of business had been done by five Lords formerly than
was afterwards got through by seven. For 10 years
previously to 1825, the average number of new causes
brought into the Court of Session was 2,380, while the
average number of the last five years was only 1,964. It
thus, appeared that more business had been despatched by
the five Lords Ordinary, than had been done by the seven
Lords Ordinary. Therefore he thought that two of their
number might be spared. -Five seemed to be amply suf-
ficient to discharge all the dUty, and, under these circum-
stances he proposed the reduction of two. He was the
more inclined to do this, because seven of them could not
sit in differe:Et places. While there was one bar, and that
nut a very large one, they would be placed in a very em-
barrassing situation if the Judges were to sit thus together.
If these seven were sitting in two-different chambers, con-
siderable confusion must be the consequence. To prevent
this, the Lords Ordinary only came out two days in a
week in turn, a circumstance which gave an unfavourable
opinion of the extent of their labours to the public. Well
knowing the state of the bar, lie would say that great, able,
and learned as it really was, still it was not sufficient fur
the business. It might have done very well when country
gentlemen were selected to preside, instead of placing indi-
viduals of legal eminence there. That, however, for the
last ten years, since his Right Hon. Friend bad the super-
intendence of that department, he believed that no such'
thing had occurred. Therefore, as time principle now was to
select men of the highest legal talents to preside, he conceived
that the bar of Scotland should be sufficiently numerous to
allow that principle to be fully carried into effect. The bar of
every country should be so formed as to give the best pos-
sible chance of filling the judgment seat efficiently. Two com-
missions, consisting of four each, had been found adequate to
one branch of business. It was admitted by most people
that four was the best number of which a court could con-
sist. If there was a majority, it must be of three to one ;
and if the opinions were equally decided, some other course
must be adopted for arriving at a decision. This had been
the case for four years in Scotland, and it had succeeded
extremely well. y Therefore, he would not deduct any
member from these Courts, but the reduction should be
effected with reference to the other five Judges. One of
these held an office of much importance. Questions re-
lacing to executions against the goods, to executions against
the person, and even questions that would here pass into
Chancery (for the Court had an equitable jurisdiction)
were all taken and tried before that Judge. Gentlemen
must, therefore, see that his duties were enough to take up
the whole time of any man. Then, of the remaining
Lords Ordinary, there were two to each Court, and he
would say, that if the number were less than two the bu-
siness could not be possibly carried on. If one were taken
away, it would be out of the power of him who remained
to prepare and go on with the causes, so as to keep the
business under. Less than two would not be sufficient in
these two Courts, nor less than four in the Court of Ses-
sion of Scotland, unless they meant to make a total altera-
tion in its constitution, which he was sure the House did
not wish to do. He was desirous that the people of Scot-
land shoal be satisfied, and the subject was thoroughly
considered by a Commission appointed for that pur-
pose. Tile Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, the
Chief Baron of the Exchequer, Mr. Littledale, Mr.
Courtenay, and Sir Samuel Shepherd, all English lawyers
of great eminence, investigated the subject with anxious at-
tention five years ago, and did not recommend the removal
of these Courts, but only an alteration in them. It would
be exceedingly impolitic to say that these Courts should all
be overturned merely to save the expense of a Judge or two.
He thought he had said enough to show why two Judges
might be spared in the Court of Session; and he would
next proceed to point out the necessity, in consequence of
the great additional extent of business which would be
thrown on the Court,
,of allowing such a lengthened period
of session as would enable the Judges to get through it.
lie wished to add one month more to the session ; and he
slid not think that he could, with propriety, press the ex-
tension further. At present the sitting lasted for six
months, with a small vacation at Christmas. This was
now curtailed by a winter circuit at Glasgow fin the trial
of criminal cases, and the trial of these also takes place
during the recess; therefore the Court sits for six months.
At the close of each session for Trials by Jury, another sit-
ting of a fortnight took place; and another month of duty
was connected with civil business ; for the same minister of
justice presided in civil as well as criminal matters. Here
he felt it his duty to state, and he slid so with deep regret,
that the business of the Criminal Court was daily becom.
ing more heavy and weighty. There were papers now on
the table of the House that showed to what an extent
criminal offences had increased in Scotland lately. It ap-
peared, from these returns, that the average number of
criminal trials in Scotland, for three years from 1810,
was as follows :—ln the High Court of Justiciary;
Edinburgh, 16 ; on the circuits, 91; the whole, 107.
The average for the last three years was—ln the High
Court of Justiciary, Edinbnrgh, 93; on the circuits, in-
stead of 91,327 ; the whole 420 ; making a difference
of 313. When there were 93 trials on the average in the
.High Court of Justiciary in Edinburgh, the House must
perceive a considerable portion of the time of the Judges
must be devoted to them ; because the House was aware
that trials of this kind in Scotland differ very much from
similar trials here. Not only was Counsel allowed in every
case, but'uo person could be convicted on the testimony of
one witness. When there was not more than one, cir-
cumstances wore obliged to be proved to. make up the de-
; ficiency ; and, therefore, a criminal case lasted for a very

considerable tune. He did not, tie reihre, go too fee,
usheinhe said that much time was ecetieissi in that ilepert-1,
mente and it appeared to him that one fortnight, ar least;
in the year, was not too much to be allowed fie i ce minal
trials at Edinburgh. Then cline the circuits which, front
the number of trials, were of most labotietts description,
and would occupy six weeks. He would prophse that
they 'should sit four weeks mere for the civil bustnetss—a
fortnight for the criminal business, and six weeks for the
circuits, being an addition of three months to the six which •
they already sat. He could state with perfect confidence,
that the time of the Judges in Scotland was very much taken
up during the vacation, in preparing for the different trials,
anti they had not more time than would enable persons of
their age to despatch the business; He now came to a part
of the subject which was of considerable iMportancen He
wished to call the attention of the House to the office el
Lord Justice-General of Scotland. Ile should propose
that. the duty of that office should he discharged by the
Lord President of the Court of Session. The office was
of a high and important character, but the individuals
who had filled it bad very rarely performed its duties, and
wheinelmete had attempted to discharge them they were not
very successful in their efforts. Since the Duke of Mon-
trose held the office, he Vad not attempted to perform
thoe. duties. It was extremely prejudicial that an indi-
vidual not brought up to the legal profession, and know-
ing little or nothing of the law, should posses the full
powers of Judge of all the criminal Courts in Scotland,
and might issue warrants and other legal instruments at
his pleasure. This wag a state of things that ought not
to be allowed to continue, and he would propose that
this office should cease. and its duties be transferred to
that of the Lord President of the Court of Session. It
was at present a sinecure. Now sinecures were situations
wile: e there was no duty and a large salary, but he in-
tended to uffix considerable duty to this situation, but not
to accompany it with any salary. That was the arrange-
ment with respect to the Lord Justice-General. He
thought it would be convenient that the duties of an office
established for important and useful purposes should he pro-
perly fulfilled, and that the plan which he had proposed was
calculated to effect that object. He had now only to deal
with- one other Court—the Court of Exchequer. This was
the-oldest of all the Courts we knew in Scotland, and in-
deed from its nature must be so in every country—the Ex-
chequer would he almost coeval with the history of taxa-
tion. By the articles of Union between the two countries,
the establishment of this Court was confirmed, and its
jurisdiction in eases connected with the revenue and excise
set forth. So anxious were the framers of the Union to
preserve the jurisdiction over revenue cases in the Exche-
quer, that they distinctly recognized its authority, and in
the as titles of Union stated the then amount of the cus-
toms and excise of Sctotland as a reason for the existence
of such a power in the Court of Exchequer. The cus-
toms, at the period in question, amounted to a sum of
30,000/ , and the excise to 36,000/. The customs of
Scotland were now 1,376,000/, and the excise amounted
to 2,839,0001., snaking together a stun of 4215,000/e
instead of 66,0001, which was the amount at the period
of the Union; such was the progress of the revenue of
Scotland. If the existence of a Court of Exchequer was
necessary at the time of the Union, in order to check and
prevent the commission of frauds on the revenue, its ne-
cessity at present, when the customs and excise had in-
creased to such an extent, could not be denied. How-
ever, although a Court of Exchequer was necessary in
Scotland, still he was of opinion that the number of
Judges might be diminished. Formerly, there Was a Chief
Baron and four puisne Barons in the Exchequer. Some
years ago the number was reduced to a chief and three
puisne ltarons, and it was now proposed to abolish two
puisne Judgeships and reduce the Exchequer to a chief and
puisne Baron. It appeared to Government that this was
the lowest number that could be adopted consistently
with the efficiency of the Court of Exchequer, which
in addition to its other business hail a variety of duties to
perform that could only be effectually discharged by a per-
'on versed in the Scotch law. Besides, the important
functions of the Court of Exchequer could not be safely
trusted in the hands of a single individual. If a Judge
were absent through illness, or some other cause, what
would he the situation of a judicature which did not pos-
sess a second Judge to try causes? If the two Judges dif-
fered upon any important question (a circumstance which
he did not think very likely, but against the occurrence of
which he wished to provide), a clause would be intro-
duced into the Bill, empowering them to call to tbeir as-
sistance one of the Judges of the Court of Session. Some
gentlemen would probably say that the Court of Exchequer
might be put an end to altogether, but he was prepared to
defend its utility and necessity. He had referred to the
articles of Union, which declared that the Court should
exist, and independently of the utility of the Court, he
maintained that Parliament could not fairly take away
front Scotland, even if there existed grounds for doing so,
a right recognized at the time of the Union between the
two countries. He felt confident, even although the duties
of the Court might be discharged by the Court of Session,
that they could not be executed with equal advantage. In
the one Court English law and practice frequently oc-
curred ; in the other it was Scottish law and practice. He
spoke from his own experience, for 11 long years he had
attended in one of these Courts upon almost every trial,
and his opinion coincided with that of Sir S. Shepherd,
the distineuished and enlightened lawyer who had presided
over it, as to the inexpediency of attempting to unite the
Exchequer with the Court of Session. It was perfectly
true that some of the Judges of the Court of Session
might be employed in the Exchequer, but then they must
have additional remuneration, and he objected to the prin-
ciple of giving some of the Judges of that Court different
duties and emoluments from those of others. In point of
expense, little or no advantage would be derived from so
doing away with the Court of Exchequer, and in other
points of view its abolition would be injurious. In no
shape, however, could the Court be so fittingly maintained
as by reducing it to the extent mentioned, and paying the
two Judges in that moderate way in which the Judges of
that Court were now remunerated. He was happy to say
he had now come to the end of his statements. He had
endeavoured to point out the different alterations contem-
'dated by the Bill which it was his intention to ask per.
mission to bring in, and he thought It would be admitted
that they were all calculated not only to save expense, but
to promote the administration of justice. He was pre_
pared to defend the changes, one and all, upon the latter
score as well as the former. He was aware that a saving
of expense would scarcely be sufficient to warrant these
alterations, unless they were also calculated to promote
the administration of justice. His Bill would put an end
to a considerable number of offices, and effect a propor-
tionable saving in the expenses of the several Courts.
In the Jury Court, the saving on account of reduc-
tions ofJudges and Clerks would be 11,0001. per annum;
the saving in time salary of the Judge of the Admiralty
Court was SOO/. ; that upon the salaries of the three
Judges of the Commissaries' Court, 1,8001. ; the Justice-
General, 2,000/. ; the two Judges of the Court of Session,
4,000/. ; the two Judges of the Exchequer, 4,0001. ;
making a total saving to the country of 23,6001. a year.
In addition to this, lie might allude to the loss of patronage,
not eventual and remote, but immediate, which Govern-
ment must sustain in the abolition of 18 offices all con-
nected with the bar of Scotland—a body of men the most
influential of any in that country, and whose favourable
opinion was of the greatest importance to a government.
Among the 18 important judicial situations which it was
proposed to do away with by this Bill, there were the offices
of one Chief Justice, and- of four -Judges of superior courts,
and the remainder were.all valuable and important offices.
Ile thought such a measure reflected great credit upon the •
Givernment that sanctioned it, and that it would be favour-
ably received by the House. At the same time it would
be idle for hint to deny that it might not be received in
Scotland with equal favour, particularly at first. The
state of the public mind in that country was different from
that of this, but nevertheless he trusted to the good sense
of Scotland eventually to value the measure in a proper
manner. Meanwhile, lie expected that some part of the
censure would fall upon himself. There were in' Scotland
individuals who reprobated all changes whatever in the
judicial institutions of the country, and of course they
would blame him for these innovations, but he trusted and
believed that no one in Scotland would question the purity
of his motives, however individuals might disapprove of
the whole or part of the present project. Trusting that the
measure might be attended with all the benefits which he
had pointed out, and confidently anticipated from its adop-
tiou, repeating that the alterations reflected great credit
upon Government for bringing forward and supporting
them, and having thanked the House for the attention
with which it had received his statements, he should con-
clude by moving, in the terms of his notice, " That leave
be given to bring in a Bill for uniting time benefits of jury
trials in civil causes with time ordinary jurisdiction of the
Court of Session, and for making certain other alterations
and reductions in the judicial establishments of Scotland."
The question having been put from the chair—
Sir M. S. STEWART must confess, that he had heard
with much satisfaction time details as far as they went, and
as he understood them, of the Bill as now proposed to be
introduced by his Learned Friend the Lord Advocate, who
he must say, had upon all occasions within his experience
always shown much candour and readiness in promoting
any measure of public improvement that he felt him-
self, in the exercise of his great official responsibility,
justified in consenting to.—(Hear, hear.)—But there was
something so new and so liberal in the proposed improve-

meats and curtailinents in the system and expenditure of
the administration of the law in Scotland, that he could
not bit mainly attribute them to the enlightened mind of
his Right Hon Friend, the Secretary of State for the Honee
:
depeetnient, in conjunction with the Noble and Leerroot
Lord at the head of the administration of justice ii thie •
ceuntro ; and, under this conviction, he could not help
expressing an anxious hope, that when the multiplied grid
important public claims that pressed so heavily upon his
Right Hen. Friend would allow him leisure to look more
and more into the details of the Courts of Law in Scot-
land, he would be disposed to feel the incumbent propriety
of carrying the effects of his salutary revision eonsiderably
beyond the scope of the Bill now before the House—(llear,
hear)__ and he could assure him (and he wished to speak
with becoming moderation on the subject, and with sincere
veneration for the institutions of his own country, and
for the able and excellent individuals who preside over
them), yet he could assure his Right lion. Friend that he
would have for his recompense the gratitude of the people
of Scotland, for it was a revision that in some important re-
spects was, he believed, much required. Hear.)—With-
out presuming. to enter at present prematurely. and imper-
fectly, as he must always, under any circumstances, do,
into the details of the Bill, he might be permitted to say
that lie thought there could be hut one opinion as to the
great advantage of promoting the extension of trial by
jury in Scotland ; for although, limited as it had hitherto
been to a separate Court, its benefits may have appeared
doubtful to some, yet, yet when it becomes co-extensive,
and united with the jurisdiction of the Court of
Session in all civil causes, as he understood it to he
the object of this Bill to make it, its beneficial effects
in shortening the length, and thereby diminishing the ex-
pense, as well as in giving more exactness tied certainty to
the proceedings of our Courts of Law, would, he was per-
suaded, be speedily and gratefully experienced—( Hear)—
and he trusted. that these benefits of trial by jury would
not be limited to the Court of Session, but that, in confor-
mity with a very general wish among the people of Scot-
land, it would be found expedient and just to extend it to
every provincial Sheriff Court in that part of the kingdom.
As a very effectual means of reducing the great expense of
law proceedings in Scotland, not included in the Bill, but
to which he would entreat the particular attention of the
Right Hon. the Secretary of State, and the Lord Advo-
cate, viz., a revision of the fees to clerks of Courts, which
• were, he believed, a ceaseless source of heavy expense to
every litigant in Scotland. These fees were, he was aware,
regulated and sanctioned by the Court of Session; and it was
for this very reason that he asked his Right Hon. Friend
to take them under his own immediate revision ; for he
was convinced of his sincere desire, as he forcibly expressed
it in his able statement on a former night, in developing
the proposed law reforms, to make justice as cheap .and as.
expeditious as possible ; and he bad indeed given substan-
tial and beneficial proofs of the sincerity of that desire, and
of his great ability to carry it into effect. Perhaps the
House would permit him to read a part of a letter he had
received, among others, from a most respectable and
experienced professional gentleman in Edinburgh, as it
would convey some information on the subject much
more concisely than be could relate it:—" The first im •
provement in the Court of Session, and the one which
would diminish expense most, would be to abolish all fees
to clerks of court, and let Government pay the salaries of
the necessary clerks as well as of the judges. If this was
done, it would net cost above one-fourth for clerks of
what it does at present. The six principal clerks and six
depute clerks of Session are nearly sinecures, and for them
the litigants are charged. with a fee-fund of about 9,000/.
a- year. There is a second fee-fund for 15 Lords' clerks,
whose fees were introduced by Sir Islay Campbell, and
cost the litigants about 6,000/. Then there are closet.
keepers, extractors, Sic., all paid by fees on every step of
procedure in the Court, so as to cost the litigants upwards
of 20,000/. for clerks of Court. If Government was to
remodel the clerks, they could get the business better done
for about 5,000/. or 6,0001. They might continue as
much of the fee-fund as would pay the present clerks till
they die out. The expense of litigation is so great, that
it soon exceeds the amount of the sum in dispute, if it be
of moderate amount; and it becomes often better to ac-
quiesce in an unjust demand than incur the risk and ex-
pense of a law suit. There seems no reason why the liti-
gants should be taxed to pay the clerks of Court more than
the judges; and Government have set the example in the
Jury Court, where they pay all the clerks. If they were
to new model the clerks, and fix moderate salaries for no
more than are absolutely necessary, they would confer a
great benefit on the country at a very moderate cost to
Government."—( Hear, hear, hear.)—He would only beg
to add, that whether Government would consent to pay
the fees of court or net, he trusted the result of a revision
would be, a great reduction of these fees, and a greater re-
duction of the clerks than was proposed by the Bill before
the House.—(Hear.)—There was another point to which
he must advert, and not mentioned in the Bill, yet entailing
great expense and greater inconvenience on the people of
Scotland, and he hoped the Learned Lord would give his
immediate consideration to it,—he meant the cumbrous
and multifarious forms of deeds and writings at present in
use for the transmission of heritable property from one in-
dividual to another, and for mortgaging the same. He was
convinced that the good sense of the country at large, and
he believed the majority of the learned profession, was im-
patient to have these forms superseded by forms drawn in
simple and precise terms, and divested of all that technical
tautology, which leads from the mere inaccuracy of clerks,
in a single word, in copying these complicated -forms, to
consequences the most serious and severe.—(Hear.)—He
trusted that the Learned Lord would yield to -the general
feeling of Scotland, and would bring in a Bill to abolish.
altogether infeftments and saisins, and enact that the deeds
of transfer of heritable property and heritable securities be
publicly registered in their stead, letting the regulated fees
of saisins be paid on these deeds, so protecting the vested
interests, and he trusted also, thus muffling, if not altoge-
ther arresting, any Opposition to this great improvement
from the principal keeper of saisins and all his subordinates.
—(Hear, hear.)—He thought that the practice of intro-
ducing into many recent Acts of Parliament condensed forms
of writing for the purchase of land for railroads, canals,
&c., and tier borrowing money on the credit of these, af-
forded a direct and useful precedent for what he had ven-
tured to suggest. He believed that bequests left to public
bodies and heritable institutions were worded in very con-
cise terms, which were held to be binding on executors,
and to be good in law ; and if he was not mistaken, the
largest mercantile transactions were securely completed,
simply by an invoice and a bill of exchange.—(Hear,
hear.) It seemed, therefore, very hard and absurd to his
unprofessional mind, that land should be the only species of
property that in its transmission should not enjoy the great
benefit of concise and secure forms. But he was persuaded
that his Learned Friend must feel the necessity of an altera-
tion in this respect, and he trusted be would, with his
usual liberality, undertake and effect it.—(Hear, hear. )
There was only one other point to which he would beg
leave at present to allude, and as it was one of heavy ex-
pense and much complaint among the people of Scotland,
he should feel that he was not doing his duty were he to
omit it on this oceasien. He alluded to the high rate of
writers' charges.--(Hear, hear.) These charges were a
heavy tax en ali the property of Scotland, and he called
upon his Hon. Friends, the representatives and gentle-
men of .Scotland, to refute or confirm what he now
stated—(Hear, hear)—and he begged to say that he
made this statement with all due respect for . that able
and intelligent body of gentlemen the writers of Scotland.
He blamed not them, for these fees were, he understood,
regulated and sanctioned by the Court of Session, and
that being the case, he felt that he ought not, as•a trus-
tee of the people's money, to consent to any augmenta-
tion to the salaries of these controlling Judges, until he
had received some assurance from the Learned Lord that
there would be a revision and reduction of these charges
of which he complained in the name of the people of
Scotland.—( Hear, hear.)—And abundant reason the peo-
ple had to seek every possible reduction of legal expense ;
for the sum annually consumed by law, in ail its grade.-
tions, shapes, and varieties, in Scotland, was something,
he believed, truly enortnous.—(Cheers.)—Leaviag to other
opportunities, and to abler and more experienced minds,
the more serious duty of going into thodetaile of this Bill,
and suggesting such amendments as might be thought
practically advisable,—and many such he trusted would be
matured and adopted on this most vitaly important mea-
sure for Scotland,—he would only at present beg leave
further to express his unfeigned respect for the very able
and distinguished individuals that now presided in the
courts of law in Scotland. He believed the bench alto-
gether never was more ably filled; and the truly efficient
Judges of the Outer House,—all of whom were, he be-
lieved, appointed by his Right Hon. Friend (and their ap -
pointment reflected the highest credit upon him,)—have
given great and general satisfaction in the country.—( Hear,
hear.)—And it is because our Judges are so efficient that
lie rejoiced to see, by the provisions of this Bill,—although
he would have liked it better had the number of Judges
eon reduced to twelve,—yet he rejoiced to see that, hence-
forth, Scotland was likely to derive a fuller and a jester
share of benefit from the labours, the learning, and the ta-
lents of the eminent persons who row administered her
laws,—(Cheem)
Sir G. WARRENDER said, unless the effect of the
present measure were to produce a considerable improve-
ment and reduction in the judical establishments•of Scot-
, land, he should be the last man to concur in its adoption.
But he thought it would be beneficial as far as it went, and

felt grateful for it. 11e fully concurred, in what had fallen
from- the Hon. Baronet oil the subject of fees : he himseff
had -te:eived communications, stating that the initiate
elate s in Scotland were.friquently deterred from applying
jastive A,,a.,;eirence of the enormous amount of fees
Tire salariomf eae►hs derived from teen amounted to 2,4001
a-year. Another system -with re;7ard to lees should be
Adopted, and the clerk, iri,tead of I,eing paid by fees as at
pre:ient, should, he remunerated in a different manner

There was no point which the people of Scotland were
more .desirous- of having altered than this. The Hon.
Baronet who had just spoken adverted to the appointment
of Judgeships, and. seemed to think they exhausted the bar
Of Scotland. But he believed that there were now at that
Bar,—and should nut object to make mention of their
names privately to the Learned Lord,—ten or twelve gen-
tlemen fully cornpeteut to the office of Judge. The two '
most able Juslges in one court were gentlemen who never
derived ebove right hundred pounds per annum from
their practice et the bar, and no Jadges could give
greater satisraction than they did—a circumstance which
proved the correctness of the principle laid down by
the Honourable Member for Knareshorough, not then
in his place, that Judges might be taken with advantage
from the middle ranks of the bar. For this measure, -as
far as it went, be gave Government great credit. Such a
measure bad been called for many years, and not having
been produced till now, be thought they ought to feel
grateful to this Government for it. Another point of the
Noble Lord was the advantage of lengthening the sittings
of the Court of Session, and of adding new duties to the
Judges. Let them, however, consider what the labour of
the Court was now. By law the Judges were obliged to
rat 114 days in the year. But how many hours on each
day did they sit ? That, they had been told, when a re-
turn was moved for, it was difficult to say, because the
Judges had kept no account of the duration of their sit-
tings. But he would venture to say, that if such a return
could have been procured, it would have been found that
300 hours in the year wag the utmost duration of the
Court's sittings. When, therefore, the Advocate proposed
to extend the sittings of the Court to 138 days in the year,
the extension would not be much unless the Court sat for
more than two hours and a half or three hours a day,
which was the case et present. The Noble Lord, too, had
told them that the office of Lord Justice General was to
be made an office of business without salary. Now he
begged to remind Hen. Gentlemen,, that the House had
been given to understand, that in consequence of the re-
port of a Committee of the House, this office was to be
totally abolished at the next vacancy. He put it to the
House if this were not the understanding.—(Hear,
hear.)—Connected with the Court of Session; there
was a very remarkable fact, which the Lord Advocate,
in his history of that Court, had totally lost sight
of. The fact, however, was well worth recollecting
in these times. When James V. in,tituted this Court,
he imposed no tax upon the people for the support of it,
and he allowed no fees to be taken from the suitors. At
that period the Pope happened to be a reformer, and his
Holiness set apart certain ecclesiastical dues for the sup-
port of the court. This fact put him in mind of economy,
land of lessening the burgens of the people. He was very
grateful for the reductions, as far as they Went, of the Lord
Advocate ; but lie confessed that he was not satisfied with
them. Since the year 1799, the expense of the judicial
establishments of Scotland bail more than doubled. In fact

it had increased 130 per cent., as any gentleman might see
by moving for returns on. the subject. The whole amount
of the expenses of the civil and judicial service of Scotland,
from the sth of Jantiary, 1828, to the 6th of January,
1829, was 176,4601. This was an enormous sum, but
it was not the whole ; for the amount of the fees paid by
the suitors Was to be added to ir. In 1799, the total
amount of the salaries of the Judges of the Court of Ses-
sion was 18,100/. ; in 1829, it was 37,0001., more than
double. Me thought that the establishments of Scotland
were as fit for reduction as any establishments in this
country, and he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would be of the same opinion. Now it was very clear,
and it was therefore not vomit while to conceal the fact,
that the present measure was to be followed up by an in-
crease in the salaries of the Scotch Judges. He thought he
should be acting only with common candour if he took his
stand on that point now, and saki that he would oppose any
proposal for the increase of the salaries of the Scotch Judges,
and that he should take the sense of the House upon it
whenever such a proposal should be brought forward. If
the returns to landed property were compared with the
salary of the Judges in Scotland, it would be found that
the Judge was now 1,0001. a year better than the land-
holder, in reference to the amount of the emoluments of
the Judge in 1810, and the income from land in the same
year. An estate which produced 2,000/. a-year in 1810
produced now only frOm 1,000/. to 1,300/. a-year. With
respect to the Court of Exchequer, he admitted that no
greater reduction than that proposed by the Lord Advocate
could be made. He had only, in conclusion, to beg
that the Lord Advocate would seriously consider the
fee-fund. No tax could be more heavy than that which
produced a denial of justice, and of such a nature was this.
Mr. FERGUSSoN said, that unlearned as he was in
the law of his own country, he could not pretend to offer an
opinion upon many of the topics which the Lord Advocate
had brought forward ; but he was capable of forming an
opinion of the Lord Advocate, and he begged to say that
no one could doubt that the motives of that Learned Lord
were as pure and as honourable as his exertions were
praiseworthy. He agreed that the extension of Jury
Trials would be beneficial to Scotland ; for he could ima-
gine no possible cese which would not be uselulty4e-
termined by twelve sworn men. As to the Court of Ad-
miralty, he concurred in the views of the Lord Advocate;
but he differed from the Learned Lord in what he had said
with respect to the Consistorial Court. He did not think
that the Judges of the ' Court of Session, any more
than the Judges of Westminster-hall, could try and de-
termine Ecclesiastical causes as well as men who
had been trained in that particular department
He did not think that questions of marriage, divorce, and
legitimacy, could be safely transferred to such Judges.
Besides, he never could admit, by whatever authority
the proposition was supported, that they ought to check
litigation by making law proceedings expensive.—(Hear,
hear.)—lf the law of Scotland had said that a divorce
should be obtained without going to Parliament, the poor
' man ought to have it as well as the rich man, and the re-
medy of divorce ought not to be exclusively confined to the
rich.—(Hear, hear.)—Unfortunately, such was the case
in this country, but that was no reason for extending the
same measure of injustice to Scotland.—(Hear, hear.)—
, The legitimacy of his children was as important to the
poor man as it was to the rich man ; and he could see no
reason for'distinguishing between poverty and wealth in
such a case. He believed that the expellee of a divorce in
the Consistorial Court was frown 10/. to 151., while he
understood that no case could be carried through the
I Court of Session for se little as 20/. The Learned Lord
had said that such cases were open to collusion, and no
doubt they were, both in this country and in Scotland;
but if the tribunal which decided upon such cases did all
it could to guard against collusion, what more could be
done ? The Learned Lord knew that an oath, denying
collusion, was administered in the most solemn manner
to parties applying for divorce in Scotland ; and the
Learned Lord also knew that if collusion could be
itibequently proved, the sentence and all the proceed-
ings were null and void. There was no such precau-
tion in this country. He should he inclined to reduce the
number of the Judges of the Consistoiial Court to two ;
but he was not at present prepared to agree that the Court
s'hould be abolished. He was glad to hear that the useless
and showy office of (Lord Justice General was to be
abolished. As to the reduction of the number of Judges,
that would of course depend upon whether the proposed
number could transact the business. He was not compe-
tent to form an opinion on this subject. With respect to
the Court of Exchequer, he thought no further reduction
than that proposed could be made in it, if the court were
to exist at all. As to the Court of Session, he thought
that his rigid friend (Sir G. Warrender) had not dealt

fairly with that part of the subject. The Judges of that
court had to read over very voluminous pleadings—papers
which included what we should call declarations, special
pleas, replications, and so forth. These documents formed
the " record" which came before them, and was very un-
like what was usually called the "record" in England.
The principal occupation of the Judges of the Court of
Session, therefore, was out of court ; and if they sat only
a few hours a day in court, that d:d net prove that they
had little to do. It was idle, then, to make such a charge
as the Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Warrender) had made against
the Judges of the Court of Session.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND hailed the statements and pro-
posed measures of the Learned Lord with great satisfaction ;
not the less so that three of them—namely, the introduc-
tion of trill by jury into Scotland, the division of the
Courts of Justice, and the reduction of the Judges—had
been urged 40 years ago, in an able pamphlet, by one well
acquainted practically with the subject, and had been re-
recommended by him last Session. He could not agree
Lord with the observations of the Hon. Membery objection
o who spoke last
e-
'quer. . He saw no necessity
theres propositionspectingtheCoonf stibsetoLrietr Court. His
was thatu
.
for reducing the Judges of that Court, nor no rea.on why
two of the Lords of the Session should not, after their
other business was over, exercise judicial functions in the
Court of Exchequer. The reference of the Learned Lord
to the articles of union as an argument against a change

in the system of the Court of Exchsquet is Scotland ap-
peared to him very ahat;rd ; for besides ith applying with
equal force against his intended change in the Admiralty
Court, it was one of tlinee apperato precedent which mug
never that he knew of" Made except in bid cases. The.
feet was, all that the artic!esof Union contemplated WS.S to
prevent the transfer of the Exchequer judicature frota
Scotland into England, and not to guarantee the then
existing thachinery of that Court. While hetapproved cf
the main principles of the Learned Lord's statement, he
begged leave to eay that he thought the fees of the Scotrh
Courts ought to be revised.
Colonel LINDSAY would support the pro?osition for
raisinn, the salaries of the Judges in Sew' and, when it
should be submitted to the House, because Le thought
those sal tries were not sufficiently high to coostirate an in-
eitv,metit to the supply of ability, learning, and integity,
necessary to the judicial character.

Mr. iIUME must dissent from the Gallant Member as
to the Judges in Scotland not being sufficiently paid, and
should endeavour to convince the House, when the propo-
sition for raising their satary was before it, that those
Judges were not only sufficiently remurerated, but were
more so than any other officers of the Crown. Though
he found much to approve of in the statement of the
Learned Lord, he could not but lament the recent ape
poietment of a Chief Baron of Scotland (though no man
could entertain a higher estimate of the fitness of the in-
dividual appointed), after it had been officiably declared
ie that House that two 'Judges had be,en reduced in that
Judge's Court. The appointment was most uncalled for,
and considering the circumstances of- the country, 'one
most neglectful of economy. He should much :Niels that
the Scotch Judges were assimilated in hakit and conduct to
their English brethren. At present they attended to extra-
judicial business much more than to the exercise of their
proper functions. The Harems of the Exchequer, fur ex-
ample, spent more time in =peeing the affairs and patro-
nage of the Treasury in Scotland, than would euffice fir all
the business of that Court. lle wished the Right Hen.
Home Secretary would direct his attention to the subject,
and lie would find that for one hour those Judges de
voted to the business of the Exchequer they spent twenty'
ia managing the p itronage and allure of the Treasury.
The Right Hon. Gentleman should not take his opinien
from the Learned Lord, who was naturally partial to the
existing system ; and who, in his seeking protection mole
the articles of Union against one alteration, while he made,
another in defiance of those articles, furnished the best an-
swer to his own ()billion. The Scotch Judges should, lie
thought, be like the English, isolated, so to speak, from
extra-judicial transactions. At present, they were to be
found acting as commissioners of gaol*, of inquiring .into
the best means of academical education, of charities, made,
&c., so as to be diverted from their judicial duties. This
should not he the case. He trusted Ministers would direct
their attention to this matter, and would pereist in their
deeigns of effecting cheap and expeditious justice.
Mr. PEEL felt himself called upon to make one or two
remarks upon the fastidiously critical censures on the
Scotch Judges, of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. The
Hon. Member wished that those learned individuals Should
not engage in extra-judicial transactions, and amongst those
transactions with interfering in which he feund blame, he
specified the circumstance of Route of the Scotch Judges
acting as Commissioners of Inquiry into the measures of
academical education, and still more their acting ai super-
intendents of charitable institutions.—(Hear.)—}le Was
glad the Hon. Member had no other ground- of blame
,
against tense learned personages, therather, as he knew that
were a vindication of such conduct necessary, he should
have no difficulty in finding a precedent in that of the
English Judges, whom the Hon. Member professed so
much to admire. If he opened the usual book in which
informatien was to be found, by the chief guardians and
managers of charitable institutions in the metropolis, 110
would find that of the General Lying-in Hospital, York-
row, Lambeth, for instance, Justices Parke and Gaetilee
were vice-presidents.—[Mr. Hume—Honorary viceapresi-
dents. ]—The principle was the same, and showed
that English Judges did not refuse to bestow a portion td
their leisure to charitable institutions and other extra-
judicial matters, which was all lie contended fir against
the Hon. Member's sweeping censure against those of
Scotland. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
saying, that as a fitter opportunity would occur of entering
into the details of the subject, he should not notice the
other topics which had been touched upon.
Mr. HUME explained.
Sir C. FORBES thought that the sweeping away of
IS public offices in Scotland was a serious Matter.
such an extensive reduction was necessary, he thought a
proportionate reduction should be made in'this country.
He saw no reason why English Judges should have
5,5001. a year, and Scotch Judges only 2,5001. He
lamented that there had been an attempt to depress Scot-
land, and that Scotland was not so well protected in the
House as formerly.—(A laugh.)—He eulogised the con-
duct of the Scotch Judges: having had an opportunity of
witnessing their manner of executing their office, he
conceived that nothing could he more creditable and ho-
nourable.

Mr. MAXWELL was sorry to find that any parsons in
that House supposed there were parties in icothand diss:t-
tisfied with the measure now introduced by the Right lint?.
Gentleman. He could assure them to the contrary. There
were, indeed, always sonic persona who imagined tl,,t
every species of reform was a dangerous innovation.

TiIeSOLICITOR-GBNERAL trusted that in appor-
tioning the labour of the Scotch Judges, they would have
a due share of leisure, and he might say of aniuscirent,
for leistire afforded to :Judges was not more beneficial to
them than to the public. With respect to what bad heert
said of the salaries of the Judges, be did not think that
they should be so high as to place them above the 14
at the bar. The salaries should, however, be such as t.,
attract to the bench the best men at the bar. He buggeited
to the Learned Lord, that it was desirable to amcvrtaia
the cause of the great influx of appeals from Scotland which
poured into the House of Lords. There must be some
good reason for this ; and the discovery of the reason
would lead to the remedy of the evil.
Mr. R.. GORDON thought that his Majesty's Ministers
felt a desire to reduce offices ; it was their duty to study
reduction. With respect to what had been said by the
Hon. Baronet (Sir C. Forbes), that Scotland was re-
duced low by this abolition of useless offices, he (Mr.
Gordon) contended, that the abolition of corrupt in-
fluaice, instead of lowering Scotland, raised it in the scale
of character.

The LORD ADVOCATE, in reply, expressed his sa-
tisfaction that the measure had appeared so generally satis-
factory. The most important suggestion that had been
thrown out was the remark of his Hon. and Learned
Friend, the Solicitor• General, respecting appeals. He
(the Lord Advocate) should certainly look into the sub-
ject ; but be could tell him that one main cause of the
number of Scotch appeals arose from the advantages which
appellants had in carrying a cause from a Court where the
Scotch law was known and easily applied, to a tribunal
where it was, comparatively speaking, unknown.
Leave was then given to bring in the 13111.
REDUCTION OF TAXATION.

Mr. ROBINSON rose to postpone Lis motion for a re-
duction of taxation, and for a reduction of expenditure,
till after Easter. _ _ _ _ •

1•••• •••••.• ••••••••- • •
Mr. HUME gave notice of some motion for the 26th
inst., but the noise in the House prevented our hearing it.
ALTERATION OF THE LAWS FOR FORGERY.
51r. PEEL rose at a quarter before one o'clock, and
after apologising for rising at that late hour to move for
leave to being in a Bill to alter and amend the laws which
inflict capital punishment for forgery, explained, that un•
less he was allowed this opportunity, ha could hardly ex-
pect to carry his Bill through Parliament in the present
Sefraion. Before he stated the precise object he
had in view, lie wished to refer shortly to the
existing laws relating to the crime of forgery, and the
successive steps by which they had, from time to time,
gradually arrived at their present extent. The origin of the
statute law, which inflicted a penalty upon ,forgery was
early in the reign of Elizabeth, all punishments for that
offence being previously had only by the common law.—
It was not until the sth year of the reign of Queen Eliza-
bethypeonfalnetyrtfaoinr
do-
cuments
was rendered by
subjecting the
ear
that a statute was passed,
hi toutr ei r
oonf,
agnoVlsosas nodf
the ears. It was not till the reign of King William 111.
cactoraimtmueetneot
slfaconnected
forgery.
not
p u n Iws
punishable
btthl
It
ear
et
abylye year
death,
theabutffioeap:hArf:tonyrgg
thforafe
d
nphaarttyteltso,
tihmeppriiislootriym,ehnrtanfdorin
g that the punishment of death was inflicted for this offence.
At that time the Bank of England was established, and in
all probability the extreme penalty was attached for the
purpose of giving greater security to the species of property
in which that corporation was principally to deal. It
appeared, therefore, on referring to those statutes, that,
from the early part of the reign of Queen Elizabeth down
to the year 1728, in the reign of George the Second, the
only forgery which Was punishable with.death was that of
the notes of the Bank of England. .In 1728 an Act was
enacted making the forgery of protniesory notes and bills of
exchange a statutable felony. He had little doubt that this
capital offence was then provided, in consequence of the
detection of some very extensive forgeries during the pz•e-
ceding year. The account of these was amply given
in the state trials. They were forgerietby a person uaine,l
Hale, in one case of a bill of 1,6001., and in another of
4,7001., in all, he believed, of thtforgery of prornissoi y
notes for a sum of 6,800 L, purporting to I.st those of

Mr. admits, who We.% then a Member of Parliament. At
at time a Memhtr's frank consisted simply of the super-
•riptims of h name, on the back of the sheet of paper
.nth the wnr,i ".free" prefixed, the rest of the address
lila he tined up by soy batty. This Hale got several of
hese franks with the words "free," " R. Gibson," written

ut the back of the fetters, which he altered into the
words, " fur" " R. Gibson," then making each piece of
paper tt prominw•y note with the member's name attached
to it in this manner. Salisequent to that period, as the
tatsisess of the various pubic departments extended, fresh
statutes were from time to time called for, and passed, he
apprehended, with very little consideration on the case of
each department, which had sought some particular pro-
tection, until at !meth the state"-hook arrived to such a
volumitions magnitude as to acite general attention; and
as Blackstone shoved, to accumulate no less than 120
tatutes,applyitv: env penalty of death to the crime of for-

_ _ • . •
gery. These might bc. divided into two classes—the first
relating to public And gerier,sl concerns ; the second, to
official tnd departrnets,al. In the first he classed all those
offences which comprehended forgery of the public funds
and national securities, bills of exchange, promissory notes,

. .
and all those acts concerning the bequest and succession of
property, marriage registers, and, in fact, all transactions of
that nature which related to the public and general concerns
Of the community. In the second clasa. which comprehended
official and departmental concerns, he included naattets re-
lating to the business of the army, navy, customs, excise.
tee. It would not be difficult to consolidate and simplify
the principles which governed the first class ; but respect-
ing tha second class, there were in the acts teferring to the
landatax alone, upwards of 200 separate clauses, but the
forgery clause (section 194) over-rode and referred to all
the preceding sections, and affixes the penalty of death for
eh- forgery of any of them. It was exactly the same way
in the Navy pay-office, where there were about 20 acts re-
sting to the pay of seamen, all full of clauses to which
the capital punishment for forgery remained in force : for
instance, there was a power given to seamen to allot a por-
tion of their pay to their families or friends, and there
was a special clause attached to this power of allotment,
which rendered it necessary to have the signature of the
seaman's commanding officer, and then to have the paper
transferred through various offices, in all of which the
penalty of forgery was applicable. There was, he :ex-
plaine4, great diffieulty in consolidating and simplifying
atteh voluminous and complicated details ; and he proposed
ao leave to each department the condensation of the acts re-
lating to forgery which belonged to it. The department of
the customs had already proceeded upon that plan, and re-
duced 360 acts to 10. The stamp department teas doing
the same; the navy boards, Greenwich and Chelsea hospi-
tals,vrere engaged in accomplishing the amine object. What
lie proposed therefore to do was, to insert in his Bill every
offence of forgery, the commission of which should be really
subject to the penalty of death. He would begin at once by
repealing the whole law relating to the punishment of death
for forgery in all the general or departmental eancerns,
and provide that the capital punishment should attach to
no other -than those hereinafter to be mentioned. He
meant to comprehend in four clauses of his Bill the Whole
of the offences of forgery, which were now spread through
such a voluminous masa of statutes.—(Hear, hear.)—He
avowed himself a derided advocate for the gradual mitiga-
tion of the severity of capital puniahmenta.-a-(Heatabear.)
--In the various efforts which for years he had the honour
of making to reform the criminal code„:his ptintipal object
was to remove the punishment of death from all offences
in which a less severe penalty could be inflicted, without
disadvantage to the community. It was impossible, indeed,
to conceal from the world that the British criminal code
as it stood on the statute took, was mote tek/ere than that
of any other country.--(l4eart)aaahlt explained that of late
years a two-fold opetttlon was in force to mitigate this se-
verity—first, they had diminished the number of offences
to which tapital punishment applied ; and next, they had
not inflicted it upon conviction as often to wgs the fortner
practice. It was singultit, in hAfitig eti the rettirna of
capital punishtnents in Landon and Middlesex, to observe
how crimes of an aggravated character always increased
-hen a time of
peace followed one of war, and decreased
is the aaniq proportion when war succeeded to peace;
mpw
..eng the general impression that the occupation
"L had the immediate effect of removing from
‘ /fiend society a number of desperate characters, whose
^bits were lawless and predatory. In the seven years'
peace which followed the war of 1783, when how-
ever, the population was les., and the number of crimes
scot specifically so great, the executions in London
and Middlesex were 378, making an average of 54 execu-
tions during etch of these seven years. In 1785 thette
*were 97 executions, and in 1787 there were 92. In the
*eve* years peace, which followed 1816, the executions
were 192, making the average of each year 27, only half
the number which appeared in the previous seven years of
peace after 1783. Now, from 1823 to 1829 the execu-
tiona in London and Middlesex were 102, or an average of
17 each year, being one-third less in comparison than the
first estimate. He now proceeded to enumerate the cases
In which be proposed to remit and to retain the capital
punishment for the crime of forgery. He should retain it
in all forgeries of the great seal, privy seal, and sign ma-
nual; in forgeries of wills, on the public funds, on Bank

tlr money, notes, or orders for the payment of money ; in
short, of all documents which represent money, and are
negotiable and transferable for it. He would remit the
capital punishment in all those cases where serious doubts
overhung its iutlicti,in, and where the complainants by due

caution could have saved themselves—(Hear).snch as
forging receipt's form ney, orders for the delivery of goods,
forging stamps, uttering forged ■tamps, attempting to
04cfrand by issuing forged orders for goods, the fabrica-
tion of the suwerial Of Bank of England paper, and
forging deeds abd bonds. These, he thought, came
within his principle of prevention by the exercise
of more diligence and caution in the transactions of

boxinesa. The Right Firliouralsle Gentleman here quoted
an extract from the report of the Committee upon criminal

law in 1817, which recommended a reform of the code
neon three great principles-Ist, the certainty, and not
the fluctuation of capital punishments, where they were to
he inflicted ; 2dly, the perfect intelligibility of the principle
upon which that infliction proceeds ; and idly, the removal
if those dormant laws, which remained a dead letter until

they were called into life by the appearance of some great
criminal, against wbom the indignation of mankind was
excited, so as to make the law applicable to the Individual
lather than to the cr:toe. The Right Hon. Gentleman
here returned to the wise A'nd 9agacioos remarks of Lord
-Liam, upon the principles which ought to govern code
criminal ign., and expressed I is aniAlement that it was
"erred for the present times to apply the maxims of that
eat and profound philosopher. When he thought of
great man he always; preferred to read pia character
in. ittc ;lines of the, poet Cowley, than in those of another
et *at peet who
,coupfed Lord Bacon's failings with his
ii gh renown; ne preferred to adopt Cowley's sublime
ttpAglit9fi"; itina, when he said that, like Moses,
/laid front the mountain top of his exalted wit,
`'* He taw the blessed promised land, and showed us it."

11 would be found that there was no material variation
inetvreen the present Bill and that which had been intro-
slimed in nig', nor was it very dissimilar from the code
Napoleon. The French law and the law of England, so
far as related to the crime of forgery, would be thus in a
great degree assimilated, if this measure should be
adopted by the Legislature He was quite sensible that
it behoved us to be cautious how far we might miti-
ate the severity of punishment consistently with a
due regard of the extent to which injury on society
might be inflicted by the frequency of a crime so pecu-
liarly dangerous in a commercial country like England.
The amount of the forgeries perpetrated by Fauntleroy
alone was not short of 400,0001. He was also unfavour-
able to the infliction of secondary punishments in certain
apses, where the education, intelligence, and, previous
respectability of the party were calculated to create
sympathy in his fate, when he should be degraded to as-
sociated with classes from which the accidents o►` a higher
yank had placed him at an unmeasurable distance. Even
in New South Wales this natural sympathy would so far
operate as to produce a general desire to concede the con-
vict those advantages which he had habitually enjoyed, as
the necessary consequence attendant on his station in
seciety. When they considered further the great loss of
property, the total ruin of families, and distrust in com-
mercial intercourse, which this offence induced, he was
sure they would join him in deprecating a sudden and
entire exemption from capital punishment, and content
themselves with silently watching the effects that might
result from their partial abolition. Should a frequent
recurrence of the crime ever compel them to retrace
their steps, such a retrogression would greatly retard
their advancement to the great object which they all
professed to have in view. Sixty-one Acts on the
Statute-book, inflicted death, on an average for five
offences of this description, which were specified in
each; but whilst he moderated their rigour, he wished
at the same time to facilitate the infliction of the
lenient punishments that were substituted. There was one
offence which was wholly overlooked by the law as it '
now stood—he alluded to the forgery of acceptances and
endorsements of foreign bills of exchange. This was
nevertheless a serious crime, and was accordingly made
clearly penal in the Bill that he had in contemplation.
Other defects in the law as it now stood would be supplied
by the new measure, as they were rendered the more in-
convenient by our increasing
awl'ntercourse with the Conti-
Dept. .The forgery of i made by an English testator

who had died at Paris, would be equally punishable as if
the will had been executed at home. In whatever part of
the world any instrument specified in the Bill might be
executed, if it were forged here, or if the forgery were
uttered in this country, the perpetrator would come within
the meaning of the law. He likewise intended to alter
the state of the law relative to venue, and should dispense
with the necessity of proving the place where the crime
had been committed, provided dn.., fact itself could be clearly
brought home to the accused. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man here went into a summary recapitulation of the pro.
visions of the Bill, and proceeded to state his intention also
to consolidate the laws affecting coining, with a view to
mitigate capital punishment in some of the offences against
those laws as they were now constituted. If this could be
(lone during the present Session, all the criminal law that
would still remain to be consolidated might be considered
comparatively unimportant. He was encouraged to pro-
ceed in this work by the gratifying experience of the good
effects which had already resulted from the exertions of
his predecessor and himself, as they had hitherto in no
one instance proved injurious to the public interests. It was
his duty to express the obligations which he owed now
as well as on former occasions to his Hon. Friend, Mr.
H. Hobhouse, formerly Under Secretary of State for the
Home Department, who had lived in retirement for se-
veral years, but whose zeal in the service of his country
had not slackened with his abandonment of office. To his
valuable assistance in preparing this Bill, and also to that
of Mr. Gregsten, he was most materially indebted, nor had
he any doubt that the time was at hand when the House
and the country would recognise the able and beneficial ser-
, vices of those two gentlemen with gratitude proportionate
to their merits. The Right Hon. Secretary, in conclu-
sion, expressed his thanks for the indul;ent manner in
which his statement had been listened to by the House at
that late hour, when their attention might have been ex-
hausted by the length to which the previous debate had ex-
tended.—(Cheers. )
Mr. F. BUXTON thought that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had deserved the gratitude of the country for the many
improvements which he bad introduced since his entrance
into office, but for none more than that which he had just
submitted to their consideration. Although he was of opi-
nion that the law would still retain but too much of its
original ferocity, he felt gratified that the enlarged and en-
lightened mind of the Right Hon+ Secretary was directed
to the subject, and It se'erned matter for congratulation
that be should have held forth a prospect of doing
more than he had hitherto attempted. The Hen.
Member for Knaresborough had instructed him to
express his regret at his Unatoidable absence on
the present occasion, and to give notice that
lie should soon move for the abrogation of capital
punishment in all cases of forgery whatsoever. Indeed he
believed that that the Hon. Gentleman contemplated a
sweeping proposal for the retreal of eS'ery statute that in-
flicted the punishment of death, except only in cases of
murder and attempts to murder. Hnw far he might be
induced by the explanatinns of to-night to depart from
such intention was not for him to say, until he should
have conferred with tail Hon. Fritnd open the subject.
Mr. LENNARD was gratified by the statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, and felt no inclination to distrust
the sincerity of his desire for a snore extensive reform, al-
though the responsibilities of office might act as a draw-
back Up:in bit godd intention"
Mr. S. RICE approved of the measure in contempla-
tion, and requested Members to bear in mind that they
ought not to outrun public opinion, as it would occasion
the most pernicious consequences if society should become
alarmed for the security of property, which a Bill of a
more extensive character might be suspected to affect. He
wished the discussion had come on at an earlier pei iod of
the evening, when he would have bad an opportunity of
delivering his sentiments snore fully on the subject ; but
he could not refrain from giving his testimony to the most
satisfactory statement made by the Right Hon. Gen-
,
tlernan:—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. Alderman '1 HOMPSO.N was glad to hear that the
forgery of Bills of Exchange was not to be excepted from
the punishment of death. He thought the Right Hon.
Gentleman had acted most wisely in not abolishing the
capital punishment for all cases of forgery at present. He
was perfectly satisfied with the course which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had pursued.
Mr. TRANT thought the country would be disap-
poined on learning that a greater mitigation, or rather the
total abolition of the punishment of death, had not been
proposed. He declared that were he a juryman and had
to give his verdict on a man who had been guilty of
sheep-stealing, he would rather commit the minor crime of
perjury, by giving a verdict contrary to his oath, than, by
condemning the man, be accessory to what he considered
nothing short of the crime of murder.
Mr. MARTIN could not make up his mind to the total
abolition of the punishment of death ; but if such a mea-
sure were to he adopted, it should at all events be carried
slowly into effect. He had therefore heard the Right Hon.
Gentleman's statement with great satisfaction.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL should be sorry that
the present Bill should be impeded in its operation by an
impression going abroad that it was only a preparatory
one. He believed great alarm would be excited in the
country if it was understood that this was only a prepa-
ratory measure.
Mr. BENSON was of opinion that the Rigbt Hon.
Gentleman had gone as far as the state of feeling in the
country would allow him.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, which was
shortly after done by Mr. Peel. It was read a first time,
and the second reading fixed for Monday, the 26th April.
Mr. DAWSON brought in the Four per Cents. Bill,
which was read a first time and fixed for tt second reading
to morrow.
Mr. PEEL presented the convention of commerce and
navigation between his Britannic Majesty and the Em-
peror of Austria.
The other orders of the day were afterwards disposed
of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter to Three o'clock.

RAMSGATE, MARCH 31.—1 n dragging in
the basin of this harbour, one of the horses stumbled
over what was considered a pile that had been driven and
left; a crane-lighter was employed to remove it, when it
was discovered to be the bottom of a vessel, which, by
the size of the timbers, is considered to have been upwards
of 100 tons ; she was, no doubt, loaded with brimstone,
as a quantity of that article was found in her. The vessel
must have been lost before the harbour of Ramsgate was
formed, consequently she has been buried several hundred
years. She appears to have been foreign built, is of oak,
and some of her planks are twenty inches broad. She is
wood fastened.

About twelve o'clock yesterday, several Go-
vernment Officers of rank were drawn by Mr. GURNEY'S
steam-carriage from the Regent's-park to the Horse Guards
in a private carriage belonging to one of the party. It
passed down Regent-street, Waterloo-place, and returned
the same route, after remaining in the yard of the Norse
Guards shout half an hour. The visit was on business.
It was then propelled towards Pall Mall, quite under con-
troul, being turned in and out among the various car-
riages with the utriic„t, ease.
THE ZOOLOGICAL SOCIETY.--A numerous
meeting of the members of this Society was held yesterday,
at the Society's house, Lord AUCKLAND in the chair,
when the minutes of the last meeting were confirmed, and
the Marquis of Douito (son to the Duke of WELLING-
TON,) Sir A. Cooritn, and others, were balloted for, and
elected fellows.

A scene of some bustle was witnessed on the
Old Hungerford Stairs on Wednesday, at noon, when the
City Navigation Committee met the Hungerford-market
Committee, to confer on the projected wharf and jetties
to be constructed there.
The inhabitants of Fetter-lane have for some
days past been subjected to a nuisance to which the prompt
attention of the City Authorities should be directed, in
order that the public health may not be injured. For a
long time past burials have been performed in the vaults
below Elina Chapel, in Fetter-lane, and there are at pre-
sent many hundred coffins which are wholly uncovered
with earth, the bodies being in different stages of decompo-
sition. Very recently it has been discovered that the
water, either from springs or other causes, has flowed into
the vaults. A day or two since there was not less than
three feet of water in the vaults, which, from its remain-
ing stagnant, emitted the most noisome effluvia that can
possibly be conceived. The inhabitants residing in the
immediate vicinity of the chapel were compelled to
keep their windows and doors closed, and, in-
deed, such was the stench that it was scarcely
possible to transact business. The nuisance was
increased by its being found absolutely necessary to
pump out this water ; and the horrid smell occasioned
thereby may be conceived but cannot be adequately ex-
pressed. Application was made to the City Surveyor's-
, office, and Mr. MONTAGUE yesterday sent a gentleman to
inquire into the matter. Mr. Deputy Rocuas, and one
~Itcti:aoncoef the Common Council, also attended, and found
.I.atremisance, exceedingly great. It is hoped that immo-
, Oil. steps will be taken to prevent the continuance of this
as, in the event of a prevalence of hot weater,
owtie,icthh,aninprothbeabdleenstehlayt
crowded
da
stst'aotueldobf e
Fetter-
lane, be productive of a great aacrifiee of human life.