The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-07 00:00:00

THE GREEK LOAN.

In reply to Mr. FITZGERALD,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
the arrangements with respect to the charge of £4,000 a
year would have first to be diplomatically arranged, and
then to be submitted to Parliament for approval. But this
ould not be accomplished during the pesent session.
RECOGNITION OF THE SOUTHERN STATES,—

the business of the session would be brought to an end by the
close of that month. lie proposed to proceed with the
fortifications to-night, and to take the second ding on
Thursday. He would name Monday for th sumption
of the debate.

d permit the

Mr. ROEBUCK hoped the noble lord
adjourned debate to stand first in the pap •
Lord PALMERST, N would take cars t' at the utmost
fixity should attend the arrangement, (Laughter.)
POLAND.

Mr. WARNER asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether there was any foundation in a statement which had
appeared in the newspaper La France, to the effect that
England seas so far committed upon the question of Poland,
that, in the event of a war arising out of it between France
and Russia, she could not remain neutral ?

Lord PALMERSTON was glad to be able to reply to
the question. The standing policy of England had been
not to enter into prospective contracts and engagements. the
exact nature and bent of which could not be foreseen.
The Government had entered into no arrangement, and
were, therefore, perfectly free to act according as the events,
as they occurred, might seem expedient.
THE GREAT EXHIBITION.

On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Mr. AYRTON rose to move, that, in the opinion of this
house, the purchase-money of the land at Kensington
should be applied by the Commissioners of the Gre
oatfEthxe-
hibition of 1851 towards discharging the liabilities
commission, and that the commission shouldbe
ho
determined,
vested in
and the property now held by the co
now
existing thereha,
the Crown, subject to any
interests
e hon. member reminded
and to any charges thereon.
,
the house that, in consequence
£lBO,
the ththeiercdomispmoissasli,onfterhseocafmlBesal
questiont
thathow a thantewlaroogenifasuimssiwonaswtsosbiessanpepdr,oparniadted.l
resulted
autho-
rity was given to them to consider what was to be done
with the' fund. They were authorised to buy and sell land,
and not only to frame a scheme, but to carry it into execu-
tion. in that way power was acquired to deal with a fund
which for all practical purposes might be said to be derelict.
The commissioners came to the conclusion that the only
convenient course for them to take was to carry out some
great scheme within the area of the metropolis for the pro-
motion of science and art, but at the same time they sug-
gested that before any such scheme could be carried out it
was necessary they should be in possession of land for the
purpose. At the opening of the session of 1852 allusion was
made to the subject, and her Majesty declared, in her speech
from the throne, that she had directed a comprehensive
scheme to be laid before Parliament. The question thereupon
assumed a national aspect, and a sum of £177,500 was voted
to enable the Government to co-operate with the commis-
sioners in the purchase of a lot of land. Subsequently, find-
ing that their powers wero not sufficient to enable them to
obtain all the land they wanted, the commissioners came to
Parliament for a local Act, compelling proprietors to sur-
render their land to the commissioners. By the exercise of
these powers the commissioners obtained possession of no
less than eighty-six acres of land, at the price of £355,000.
In that way a practical partnership arose between the State
and the commissioners, which was a very unfortunate part-
nership for the State, as the State was in a minority of five
to one upon the board. The partnership survived for two
or three years, but at last it was found so irksome that the
right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli)
came down to the house one day and announced
that the Government had come to the conclu-
sion that it were better it should be dissolved.
Ultimately the State was allowed to occupy twelve
acres of the land, getting back at the same time a sum
of £120,000, the rest of the estate valued at between
4'300,000 and £400,000. But the State did not actually get
even these twelve acres ; they were only permitted to use it
subject to a proviso that the land was appropriated to the
purposes of science and art. Having made the above pre-
fatory statement, the hon. and learned gentleman asked
what had the commissioners ever done for the promotion of
science and art. Twenty-two acres of the land had been
appropriated to the formation of the Horticultural Gardens,
which was nothing more than a mere fashionable promer -
ade—a garden in which neither science, art, nor nature was
apparent. (Hear, hear.) So revolting, indeed, was the place
to English taste and feeling, that there were great doubts
whether it could be maintained. Since they took what was
called " the Boilers," what had been done? Arrangements
had been made for establishing one of the finest cafes in
London ; and it was resolved that the na ional taste should
be cultivated in that respect, and that things should be
made attractive by means of beer, cheap wines, and gin-
sling. This great tavern was to be the grand, the all-pre-
vailing feature of the place ; the public were never to
escape from it, no matter what way they turned ; it was to
be the sine qua non. It was no doubt a very convenient
thing to have a place to eat and drink in ; and, like ex-
cursions to Richmond, it was right they should have
their " Star and Garter" in the centre of their opera-
tions. This was the great work which had been ac-
complished. What the tavern cost they did not know,
but they knew what the Horticultural Gardens cost—sim-
ply 22 acres of land and a grant of £50,000. (Hear, hear.)
The proceedings of the commissioners, from first to last,
had been tainted with over-reaching and chicanery; and
surely there never was a more curious combination of
ideas than that exemplified in the Exhibition building—
a glass dome, pieces of wood and iron in the walls, and
paintings like an immodest casino. (Laughter, and hear,
hear.) He would not go into details, for, after the decisive
vote of Thursday, it was not necessa y to do so ; but still
it was necessary to consider whether they had made an ab-
solute purchase of the land. There were conditions annexed
to the purchase of the land, which were not known to the
law of this country ; and it therefore became necessary to
inquire into the nature of these conditions, and the position
of the' parties making them, One condition was that the
land should be applied to purposes in connection with the
advancement of science and art ; and the second condition
was that the land should be connected with the tavern and
drinking house. He wanted to know whether that was a
decent condition to impose in a matter of the sort, and
whether Parliament would allow the public interests to be
subordinated to the will and pleasure of those commissioners,
There was only one remedy by which they could disen-
tangle themselves from those commissioners, and that was
by getting rid of them altogether. (Cheers.) If the com-
missioners continued they might be sure of a repetition of
the embarrassing, circumventing intrigues which they had
witnessed in the present session. For his own part, he
would not like to see a repetition of the exhibition of Thurs-
day last; but, at the same time, he thought that exhibition
did credit to the House of Commons. (Hear.) But when
intrigues took place, it was the duty of hon. members to ex-
press themselves in terms of indignant disgust. He con-
tended that the position of the commissioners was anomalous
and embarrassing, and that it was the duty of Parliament to
intervene. There might have been some reason for giving
up the constitutional aspect of the question dur-
ing the lifetime of the illustrious Prince Con-
sort, who had devoted himself so exclusively to
science and art, and under whose guiding influence some
great purpose would be ultimately worked out. But now
wsaatihte commissioners
Parliament
adenhttefure:
l
£lfit ihelel
certain
dOaew,iohnt themhOo
goel eirrtoot
113:1 rnabi °l:der lgpr
eawaf u runi adtdsrs forhiwterwa changed,srtahe
essesptnoli
al7no tbceti
dlei
acres
ayto.
fLTlla6hn2ed, roe;oowt
hames avr
value
uutmeh
then
' there were 15 acres estimated at £225,000; making in the
aggregate £507,000. There was also the reversion of the
22 acres to the Horticultural Society in the course of 60
years, or whenever the public got tired of visiting the gravel
walks and stucco of the Horticultural Gardens. Well, these
were the assets, and now for the liabilities. They had bor-
rowed 1`‘.0,000 from Greenwich Hospital; £50,000 from
other parties, and they had given a rent-charge to Messrs.
Kelkee7 and Lucas amounting to £17,000; making in all
I ,000. What he wanted was to get rid of the excrescence
of the commission; for, having lost its great head, it had
nothing to accomplish. (Cheers.)
Mr. LOVE said he would state the position occupied by
the commissioners of 1851. In 1850 her Majesty issued a
commission, and subsequently a charter, the object of which
was to give the commissioners a more extended field of ac-
tion. The commission was recognised by an Act of Parlia-
ment passed in 1854. After the great Exhibition of 1851,
the commission came into the possession of a surplus of
£180,000; that surplus, together with a further sum of
£177,000 granted by Government, had been applied towards
the purchase of the Kensington Gore estate. The com-
mission and the Government were partners in the purchase;
but the joint ownership between the commission and the
Government was put an end to in 1859. The Govern.
ment at that time took twelve acres, on which the
buildings of the Department of Science and Art were
erected, for £60,000, being about one-half of the value.
That was the precise legal position of the Commissioners,
who might be regarded generally in the light of charity
trustees who held no public money in their hands. If it
could be shown that their charter of incorporation had been
improperly obtained, then it could be put an end to by scire
jacias, or if its powers had been abused it could be with-
drawn by quo warranto. Those were the only means known
to the law for the sudden or violent revocation of a charter,
which would otherwise 'virtually expire when the func-
tions for which it had been granted had been fulfilled, But
then came the question, why, out of a vast number of corl
porations existing upon a similar basis, should the house bd
asked to declare that that particular one ought to be abo-
lished ? What had it done ? It had no public moneys in
its hands, and no public duties beyond those declared in the
charter. The fact of its having been warmly supported by
his late Royal Highness the Prince Consort should havti
been a guarantee that it was at least deserving of some little
consideration. It should be borne in mind that the cemmisJ,
sioners of 1851 were not the managers of the Exhibition of
1862, and it was no proof of chicanery on the part of the
commissioners of 1851 if the hon. gentleman established
discreditable conduct on the part of the commissioners of,
1862; but, before hon. gentlemen came down to the house
and made charges of the kind they had heard that evening,
he thought it was not too much to ask that they should usl
sufficient diligence to make themselves acquainted with the
facts. The hoe. gentleman charged the commissioners with
having built a tavern, but it was obvious that a refreshment
department was indispensable to the success of the whol4
undertaking. At all events, he hoped Parliament would
not recommend the abrogation of the charter upon that
ground. (Hear.) Thelcommissioners had provided the coun-
try with funds to the amount of £220,000 for the promotion