The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1837.

'as mote than 2s. an aci e paid for mendicity. Now this is in
itself a very heavy tax, a, id which cannot be assumed upon the
whole to amount to less th an bete veen 700,0001. and 800,0001.,
perhaps a million in the yenar. nd let it be observed that this
practice of mendicancywhich: rail es so vast a sum in the country
is not like a well-constituted f 'oor-law, which affords relief to
the really indigent.--( Hear.
for ) It is the practice in Ireland
the farmer to afford relief to the mendicant who asks for it
—the potatoes are there res .dy for him—there is no inquiry
into the circumstances of the mendicant : generally it is
not near home that he begs, and the farmer has no means of 1
knowing him. But that N (Lich seems to afford relief to the
distressed also promotes and keeps up impostors.—( Hear.)
We have a statement wit' a respect to England which shows
the advantage that Me' Alica,lcy obtains from imposture. A
medical gentleseeen has, stated with respect to Suffolk, that he
has during continuance of the old Poor-law discovered
every sPee'ess of the simulation .of disease. Those who pre-
tended to. 'oe affected with cataleidsy, those who shammed crip-
ples, atn-st the shamming of sortie of the most agonizing and
excrumkating diseases, and all this for the purpose of receiving
relict from the parish.—(Herr.) It cannot, then, be supposed
that, in Ireland, where men linancy is so general, and where
re'sief is so freely given, but that the number of impostors must
kr2 enormous.—( Hear.) But there is another evil to which a
Poor-law would peculiarly apply, and which is, in truth, one
of the greatest evils to which the country is subject—it is that
the usual manner of livelihood with what I call the labouring
classes should be derived from their small holdings of land.—
( Hear.) If you deprive the poor labourer of his small holding
of land, he is immediately driven into a state of destitution—
and he becomes a man ready for the commission of any outrage,
in order that he may supply by outrage what mendicancy may
be unable to procure for him.--( Hear, hear.) I put the case
without referring to the question whether the landlord or the
tenant has acted badly or not ; but in either case, where the
labourer is turned out of his holding, it leads to the commission
of outrage. If you suppose a number of persons in possession of
of their small holdings, and that they are driven suddenly out
of them by their landlord, you can then suppose the combina-
tions that are formed—that they return in numbers—that they
came in arms, and endeavour to deprive the tenant succeeding
them, and thus repossess themselves by force of the land. But
put the case the other way. A tenant is in possession of a
holding for three or four years, and this without paying any
rent, and the landlord is compelled to get rid of him. That
bad tenant, such is the state of the labouring classes, collects
the sympathy of that class, and they arm themselves against
the landlord. A band is formed for the commission of crime,
and the crime finds an excuse, and, I will say, a justification
in the sympathy of the peasantry of the country.—( Hear. )
Let me advert to our case, for there are many cases of out-
rages, all arising from this source in Ireland. The case oc-
curred about two years since, and I noticed it in the police re-
port ; it shows the sympathy of the peasantry for a person in
the condition I have described. A tenant was dispossessed
from his holding ; a person had taken possession, and he came
upon the land, with a farm servant, to cultivate it ; the farmer
who had been in possession came near to them with a gun in
his hand; he immediately aimed at the new tenant—it
missed ; he cocked the gun again, fired at the servant, and
shot him dead on the spot. There could not be a more un-
provoked homicide than that.—( Hear.) It was evident that
the farm-servant, who had nothing to do with the holding, and
who went there to earn his wages as a labourer, was thus
basely murdered ; and yet the police, who were in an hour
afterwards at the place, could not find persons to give them
information as to who committed the murder. Information
was n fused because the sympathy was for the person who
was driven from his holding. The state of society has been
produced by the absence of any legal provision for the poor.
It has produced on the one hand the most extensive mendi-
cancy, and on the other the most extensive crime.—( Hear,
hear.) It has produced, too, a third consequence, namely,
the indifference or neglect, the want of care on the part of
landlords as to the manner in which their property is cultivated
and their tenants live. In a great part of Ireland the same
indifference prevails as to the comfort of the tenants on the
part of the landlords. In this country the state of the la-
bourers is looked to, and even in what repair the farm-houses
may be. A great amelioration, I believe, in this respect is
taking place in Ireland ; but generally with the landlords in
Ireland they regard the connection as matter of bargain be-
tween them and the tenant, and merely to obtain a certain
rent for him. They no more care for the welfare of the te-
nantry than if they had to do with an indifferent or third person,
and that there the transactions are to end. The competition
for land in Ireland likewise gives rise to very high rents, to
very high nominal rents, and which no unfortunate tenants can
pay. The extreme competition for land, leads to most injurious
consequences, and of course it leads, too, to the extremely bed
cultivation of the land.—( Hear.) There are parts of Ireland
in which tenants would be glad to improve the land, but will
not do so because there is an extreme competition for land,
and also from extensive vagrancy they find it impossible to do
so.--( Hear, hear.) I will take the liberty of readhig, a sen-
tence from the report of Mr. Nicholls, in which he deals with
the evils that arise from this source. They arc thus disposed
of in a very few words :—" Ireland is now suffering under a
circle of evils, producing and reproducing one another. Want
of capital produces want of employment—want of employment,
turbulence and misery—turbulence and misery, insecurity--in-
security prevents the introduction or accumulation of capital—
and so on. Until this circle is broken, the evils must continue,
and probably augment. The first thing to be done is to give
security—that will produce or invite capital—and capital will
give employment. But security of person and property cannot
co-exist with general destitution. So that, in truth, the drain-
age, reclamation, and profitable cultivation of bogs and wastes
—the establishment of fisheries and manufactures—improem
merits in agriculture, and in the general condition of the coun-
try—and, 17istly, the elevation of the great mass of the Irish
people the social scale, appear to be all more or less contin-
gent upon a law providing for the relief of the destitute."—
( Hear.) Now, with respect to that part of the case, we have
come to the opinion that it is expedient and right to introduce a
law for the relief of the destitute. The next question is, in what
manner is that -relief to be given, and to whom is it to be
I have shreds stated that I do not think that vie
given ?
ought to limit relief to certain classes—Olean ) You
must give relief on the ground of destitution, and to every
class and person who is destitute.—( hear, hear.) The next
question arises, whether you arc to afford relief in any
other manner than it is now given in sonic of the improved
districts in England—that is, by in door relief to the paupers?
—( Hear.) The Poor-law Commissioners have expressed a
very strong opinion upon this subject, and they give reasons
which I think conclusive on the subject. They are of opi-
nion, and I think so with them, that the administration of
out-door relief would lead to a most pernicious system, mix-
ing up mendicancy and charity with labour—a system of
persons partly obtaining support by labour and partly relief
from the public purse; and if we were at once to adopt this
system, I certainly do think that not only would those evils
take place in Ireland that existed in England, but I believe
that those evils would be very much greater, and that out-door
relief in Ireland would absorb a much greater part of the
profits of the land.—( Hear, hear.) I am confirmed in this
opinion by a report which I lately received containing reso-
lutions bearing very much on this subject. It is a report
from the Mendicity Institution of Dublin. They " declare that
they do not think it wise to administer out-door relief to any
person not labouring in the Institution itself." I will next come
to the question whether, if we adopt the present system of
workhouse, that system of workhouse can be rendered effec-
tual to any purpose ? There is one objection to them stated
on this ground, and it is urged very strongly by the Com-
missioners. I know it was felt very strongly by some indi-
viduals in that Commission that the workhouses would not
be safe—that there would be too much violence—that there
would be such an indisposition to the restraints that those re-
straints could not be enforced. Mr. Nicholls, for the purpose
of establishing this fact, made a full inquiry into all the va-
rious houses of industry, the mendicity institution, and the
other institutions that exist in Ireland, and he says that the
conduct of those persons in these institutions gave no reason
to apprehend anything of the sort. He observed that in some
of these houses of industry they have carried the system of
restraint further than in some of the old English workhouses;
they have established the separation of the sexes and of the
members of families, such as were established in the new union
workhouses in England; and he did not find any regulation
proposed to be made which did not now exist ; on the con-
trary, every regulation is submitted to by the inmates of those
houses of industry. I should think, therefore, as far as the
question of settlement is concerned, there need not be any
fear that there will be any violence used, or that we cannot
protect the workhouses in Ireland as well and as securely as
in England, for the object of obtaining the result we desire, of
maintaining good order and industry in those houses.—( Hear,
hear.) The next difficulty, or rather another objection, has
been stated, which lies at the bottom of the whole question.
It is, whether this species of relief will not be so much
sought after that the workhouses will be altogether crowded
with applicants, and that there will be no means of afford-
ing relief to those who will come in such numbers to ask to
be supported in the workhouses. But, Sir, while I am
ready to admit that that portion of the population which
consists of persons decrepid and infirm will seek refuge in
workhouses, it is, in my opinion, very doubtful that any
person who can obtain any sort of subsistence by his indivi-
dual labour will crowd into the workhouses, where they
will be subject to confinement and labour. The evidence
goes to show that the objection which has been taken to
workhouses in England cannot be taken as a test in Ire-
land ; and nothing is more unlikely than that labourers
who can obtain any sort of employment, or who have any
other means of livelihood than by confinement within
workhouses, will crowd into the workhouse, either because
the quality of the food or the habitation is very much su-
ps-Tien—(llean hear, hear.) It remains to be considered
how far a law so constituted can be carried into
effect. And on this part of the subject Mr. Nicholls
has made various suggestions, to which I shall shortly ad-
vert, as containing the plan which lie proposes to adopt on
this subject. In the first place, with respect to the mode of
administering relief, and the question of vagrancy. To
every destitute and decrepid person, the authorities having,
the superintendence of the administration of relief shall
order relief to be given ; that is to say, we do not propose
to give them an absolute right, which in fact I do not think
exists in England ;_ we do not propose to give an absolute
right to destitute and decrepid persons to secure relief in the
workhouses. The reasons for this are, that not only would
it be found difficult to create workhouses, and very unsafe
to establish at once, in the whole of Ireland, that every per-
son should be at once relieved, but there is also the difficulty
of introducing a sound general principle of relief at once into
the country. We do not therefore propose to establish at
first more than four or five, or ten or fifteen, workhouses
in Ireland. If we say that all persons in Ireland shall be
allowed to have relief in these workhouses, then these
workhouses will certainly be overflowed in the be-
ginning, and the experiment may be said to have
failed, when in fact it had only failed because it was

not established throughout the whole of the country, but only
in a portion. It is impossible to have evidence of the true
working of the system until the whole is hereafter estab-
lished.; and in order to give effect to it, it must afford relief to
all that require it. But then it may be said, and it has been
very much insisted upon, that the way of preventing such
numbers from flocking into the workhouses is to establish the
law of settlement, and to say that a residence of three years in
the district, or some other qualification, should be established,
by which certain persons only should be entitled to relief. But,
Sir, on reflecting on the course of legislation that has been
pursued in England, I have not made up my mind to propose
any regular law of settlement in Ireland.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear !") I am quite convinced that the law of settle-
ment is one of the greatest evils of the Poor-laws of England.
It circumscribes the market for industry, it confines it, owing
to divisions in parishes, in many cases to a small extent of
country-; it confines the market for industry to a very great
and injurious extent. It likewise led to immense litigation ;
and any person who had attended the quarter sessions and seen
the disputes that arise there between one parish and another,
as to whether a person had been hired for a year and a day,
whether he had been ordered to go home on the day before
the expiration of that term, so as to destroy the settlement,
or whether he had served a full year and a day, and va-
rious other similar questions—any person who had attended
to this litigation and those disputes will not have any wish
that I should in this Bill introduce the question of settlement.
—(Hear, hear.) If I were to introduce the question of set-
tlement, I think it would have these two consequences—one
because we cannot immediately Say that we will give relief,
or indirectly a claim to relief at all to the destitute poor of
Ireland ; neither can we say, in the second place, what is cer-
tainly greatly to be desired, that we will at once prohibit alto-
gether and put an end to vagrancy. When the whole of the
workhouses are in operation, and when we are enabled to re-
lieve at them all such as are fairly entitled to have relief in the
workhouses, then you may say we will not permit vagrancy.
First, then, to all destitute persons who seek nothing but sub-
sistence, that subsistence we give, and tell them that we will
not allow them to disturb the peace and order of society by
seeking subsistence by other means. But until you can say
this t t is not just altogether to prohibit vagrancy, and I there-
fore do not propose to prohibit persons seeking alms, if they
can show that they have been to the workhouse or have ap-
plied to the guardians of the union, and have been refused
relief. This, I think, is a necessary step in the transition
from one state to another. If the scheme succeeds we will
be hereafter and finally able to prohibit vagrancy. The next
question that arises is that with respect to the local ma-
chinery. I propose, with regard to this point, that there
shall be a board of guardians, to be elected once a year, as
in England. I propose that the county cess payers shall
have the first election, and afterwards, the rate being imposed,
any person properly described as a rate payer shall have the
power of voting in the election of the board of guardians. Mr.
Nicholls has entered very minutely into the question whether
or not we ought to have ex-officio guardians in the same man-
ner as in England. The opinion I have come to is, that it is
not advisable to introduce a similar provision.—(Hear, hear.)
In the first place, by the proportion which the ex-officio guar-
dians bear to the number elected the character of the board of
guardians is altogether destroyed. I therefore propose that
there shall be a smaller number of ex-officio guardians, and
that they shall not exceed one-third of the number of elected
guardians. Mr. Nicholls has likewise examined another ques-
tion, viz., whether clergymen should be admitted as members
of the board of guardians? He states, and, as I think, truly,
that you cannot have the ministers of one profession, without
the ministers of the other ; and, in the present state of Ire-
land, the presence of different ministers of religion on the
board of guardians might raise many questions of dispute ;
and I think it would be better if the board of guardians
were confined altogether to laymen—(Cheers)—and from
clergymen of all denominations, from Protestants, Roman
Catholics, and Presbyterians, he had received assurances
of their willingness and anxiety to co-operate with the
board, while some of them stated that they would rather be
in the position of mediators between the board of guar-
dians and the destitute poor, between the administrators of
the law and those whom it would affect, where their exertions
would be more efficacious in reconciling the poor to the law,
and to those who would be exposed to their angry denuncia-
tions. I do think that for these reasons it were better that
they should not be members of the board, but rather remain in
that position in which they would be better enabled to use all
fair argument in favour of the law than if they aided in its
administration.—(Hear.) Now, Sir, with respect to the ques-
tion of rating, it is proposed that the board of guardians being
once constituted, and under the direction of the Commissioners
whom I shall afterwards describe, shall impose rates according
to the net annual value of the hereditament. The question
then arises, and it will be found fully treated by the Poor-law
Commissioners, how much of this rate shall be imposed on the
owner, and how much on the occupier ? It is proposed by the
Bill which I hope to be allowed to introduce, that of the full
net annual value taken from the tenant, one-half shall be paid
by the tenant and the other half of the rate by the owner of
the laud—( Hear, hear)—that this provision shall be carried
through in all gradations, and that when there arc many
tenants holding, some under others, such tenant who is the
lowest occupier shall deduct one-half, and the person to
whom he pays it shall have the power of deducting a cer-
tain proportion of the half as rate, and shall pay the rate
which he receives from the occupier. So that, in point of
fact, all owners liable to be rated, and paying a sufficient
amount, shall be entitled to vote for the board of guardians.
But with respect to others who hold property under 5/., it is
proposed that property of the annual value of Si. shall not be
liable to the rate, and shall not have the power of voting for
the board of guardians. It is proposed, likewise, according to
the Report, that those owners and occupiers shall have a plu-
rality of votes in cases where the property exceeds a certain
amount. With respect to the other questions which are
treated of in the English Poor-laws, it is not necessary in any
Poor-law for Ireland to introduce provisions on these subjects.
For instance, bastardy need not be introduced, and apprentice-
ship is not proposed to be introduced, as in the law relating to
England. With respect to the eases of the Mendicity Insti-
tution and other charitable institutions, is is proposed that they
shall be under the direction of the Commissioners, who are
to have the conduct and management of the whole administra-
tion of the law. With respect to the Commissioners, I think
that the safest manner of introducing such a law as I have
described is the simple machinery which has been found so
advantageous in England, and through the aid of persons fully
acquainted with the principles of the law of England,
and who have been employed in carrying it into opera-
tion. We therefore propose that, instead of forming a se-
parate Commission for Ireland, the Poor-law Commissioners
for England shall have the power of intrusting to one or two
of the Commissioners, and if there is only one, to any of the
Assistant-Commissioners, the power of sitting in Ireland as
a Board of Guardians, in order to carry the law into opera-
tion there. It is proposed that in case it should be necessary
to add to the strength of the present Board of Commissioners
if the present number shall not be found equal to the task,
then the Board shall have the power of adding one Commis-
sioner, thus making four. When there are four Commis-
sioners there will be found very probably one or two in Ireland
and the others in England. I think this a better mode of pro-
ceeding than by establishing a new Board of Guardians.—
( Hear.) It is far safer that we should have persons already
intimately acquainted with the operation of the law.—(Hear.)
It is far better that they should have the power of communi-
cating from time to time with England, because if we esta-
blish a separate board of Commissioners in Ireland, a totally
separate board, we shall probably, in the course of a
few years, find the Commissioners of England and Ireland
acting upon totally different principles. According to the tes-
timony of the gentleman at the head of the Commission in
England, he believes that three Commissioners only will ,be
able to conduct all the operations required both hero and in
Ireland. These Commissioners will be entrusted with the
power of putting the law into operation from time to time, ac-
cording as they may see opportunity, in the different districts
which they may think most favourable, and then they would
proceed to other districts. They would form unions either of pa-
rishes or of any other divisions, or, without attending to the
present divisions, they may form unions, and having formed an
union they will proceed to adapt any building that may be
standing for the purpose of a workhonso, or they may build
a new workhouse, if necessary. There is a considerable dif-
ference of opinion between some of the persons who have con-
sidered this subject with respect to the size of the workhouses
and the unions. A gentleman who has published a pamphlet
on the subject, written with very great talent, proposed that
there should be 500 unions, and that the number of inmates in
the workhouses should be limited to 200 in each workhouse.
Mr. Nicholls proposed that the unions should be mere exten-
sive ; that there should not be above 100 unions ; and that each
should be capable of containing 800 inmates. This calcula-
tion is made according to the circuits of Kent, Sussex, Oxford,
and Bath. The amount of pauperism in Suffolk is one per
cent. of the population. I can -mention an instance in East
Kent of a place where the able-bodied persons are 16,000, but
there are not more than 24 in the workhouse. But suppose in
Ireland the workhouses are to be fully occupied, Mr. Nicholls
calculates that the whole expense for each person, including
lodging, fuel, clothing, and diet, is Is. 6d. per week. We have
calculations made by various persons, and several calculations
made by order of the Poor-law Commissioners, and the calcula-
tion of the expense of the workhouses in England by Dr. Way,
and they all come to the same conclusion on the subject—that
Is. 6d. per week is quite sufficient. If, then, you take 100
unions, the whole expense will be 312,000/. ; if you occupy only
three-fourths, the expense will be 250,000/. ; and if only
one-half, the expense will be 208,0001. Of course, as an
original outlay, we must calculate the expenses of workhouses
at 700,000/. This would be the amount of the whole expense
according to this plan. But, Sir, while I consider that this
plan is one of great importance—while I consider that it will
in many respects improve the condition of the people of Ire-
land—while I consider that it will have many collateral ad-
vantages, as, for instance, accustoming the people to see ex-
amples of cleanliness and regularity, order and peace, in the
workhouses ; and likewise, if the Board of Guardians are well
formed, of seeing the different classes of the people acting to-
gether with cordiality and confidence, from the magistrate to
the lowest of the rate-payers—while I calculate that this
plan will have these advantages, I must say, that to suppose
that merely by machinery of this sort the people are to be
saved at once from the state of destitution in which they now
are, is too unreasonable to be supposed. In order to do this,
I think, we must look forward to having the means of employ-
ment in Ireland, and we must look forward to having some
vent in emigration, in order to relieve the country during. her
state of transition. Let it not be supposed that I believe,
when I speak of emigration, that the present eight millions of
inhabitants living in Ireland may not be very well sustained,
and sustained with good and sufficient means, by the soil of
Ireland—(Hear)—but I do believe that hitherto, with the
means of so doing, a practice has prevailed, and still
prevails, which will render it unlikely that this operation
should have a successful result without some collateral

sources for easing the country of her superabundant labour.
As to the nature of the public works to be engaged upon,
that is a point which I will not discuss now. It appears to
me that there are various means open for the application of
the Tabour of the poorer classes which might lead to the
happiest result ; but at the same time they should be adopted
with great judgment and sound discretion. I think that with
care and good judgment we way find materials for public
works of such a nature, which, whilst they serve the tempo-
rary purpose of employing the time of the indigent, may be
the means of opening new sources of industry, and for the pro-
fitable investment of capital in Ireland. The opening of im-
proved communications between districts, for instance, and the
improving of bogs and ditches, are subjects well worthy of the
application ;of labour and the investment of capital. This,
however, as I said before, is a branch of the subject upon
which I will not enter at present. It may be remarked that
there is no great quantity of capital in Ireland available for
such purposes as I have mentioned, but it should be recollected
that if we provide means by which a feeling of security,
which does not exist at present, may be promoted amongst the
owners of property, capital will immediately begin to flow in for
investment in that way. I have now to say a few words in
reference to emigration, in connection with the subject
before the House. I know there are some who entertain
notions upon this subject far beyond those which I am in-
clined to adopt, in favour of an enlarged system of emigra-
tion. It is a scheme entertained by some that one or two
millions of our poor population might be exported to our
colonies, and immediately find means of support in the new
field of employment there opened to them. Now, putting
aside all other difficulties which may be in the way of this
desired result, and viewing the attempt merely in respect to
the effect of such a proceeding upon the colonists, I think
that the ferment created amongst them would -be so great as
to throw hopeless impediments in the way. It would at once
be supposed by them that we were sending in amongst them a
vast quantity of our useless population, paupers who conferred
no benefit upon the country they were exported from, and,
therefore, as they would argue, likely to prove an evil instead
of a source of benefit and productiveness to the new soil
in which they were to be placed. I know that there
is a very great feeling of this kind already prevalent in our
colonies, and in some even it has been thought desirable
to exercise a sort of control as to the class of emigrants
which should be admitted. It is a plan which has recently
recommended itself to the Colonial-cffice, and which I

hope will be persevered in, not to give large tracts of
land indiscriminately to parties proposing to emigrate, at
the imminent risk of their not being properly cultivated,
and the parties themselves not benefitted by their posy
session ; but to sell the land at what might be consi.
dered a fair and good price to persons who, by shoeing
themselves ready to advance a little money upon it, gave the
best possible earnest of their intention and ability to improve
and render it productive.—( Hear, hear.) In one colony alone,
that of New South Wales, the sale of lands in this way, dur-
ing the past year, has amounted to 100,0001., and this sum
might be employed with success in the conveyance of emi-
grants. lam aware, also, that a notion used to be prevalent
that persons sent out in this way from amongst the poorer
classes of Irish, were not of a description to be very desirable
or useful to employers; but I am convinced that this feeling
of prejudice or jealousy will not long interfere in the way of
their employment, when it is found that there are many emi-
grants from Ireland willing and able to cultivate the lands of
those who may hire them.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to
this subject I may state, therefore, that it will be proposed
that there shall be an emigration station at the different sea-
ports of Ireland, and that the persons proposing to emigrate,
having raised a sufficient sum for that purpose, should inform
the agent, who would send them to the seaport, where' a ship,
to be provided by the agent, should be ready to convey them.
The Government would pay the expenses of the agent, and
also provide some proper officer to take the command of them.
By means of these precautions, the colonists will be certified
that the persons brought amongst them are proper persons for
the purpose, and not merely paupers, driven away to prevent
them from starving in their native land. This is a plan which,
if adopted, will of course not contemplate any vast quantity
of persons being sent away together ; but it will at the same
time afford a vent by which a redundant population—and par-
ticularly those who cannot find adequate employment at home
_may seek it with facility elsewhere.—( Hear, hear.) In es-
tablishing a system of Poor-laws for Ireland it appears to me
that we must look upon these two subjects—public works and
emigration—as means for co-operating with, and perfecting
any, such an enactment. We should look also to the general
improvement which, we are informed on all hands, is going on
in Ireland, and we shall find much to hope for in the accom-
plishment of these objects. If, on the other hand, the whole
state and condition of the country were going backward—if the
whole revenues of the country were diminishing—there would
then indeed be some difficulty in such a plan as that I now
suggest ; but considering, as I do, the whole country to be in
the way of improvement, I think there is much to hope for from
the plan, and every reason for its adoption. It is proper, how-
ever, that the House should understand that what I have
stated in regard to public works and emigration bears no
direct reference to the measure which I now hope to intro-
duce. These subjects form no part of my present object,
which is strictly to carry a Poor-law Act for Ireland; they
are subjects, therefore, which I merely touch upon now, as
worthy of consideration as future resources, in co-operation
with the measure I now propose. I would observe also,
that I do not consider that these are branches of the sub-
ject in which the Poor-law guardians could properly be em-
ployed ; Ido not think it would be safe to entrust them with
the management of public works and emigration, in addition
to the labour and duties of their immediate department, al-
though, at the same time, I think they may be made very use-
ful in diffusing information on the subject. There is one other
question collateral to this matter which, before I sit down, I
wish very briefly to touch upon. The Poor-law Commis-
sioners for England, in the end of their report, make use of the
following observations :—" It will be observed that the mea-
sures which we have suggested are intended to produce rather
negative than positive effects ; rather to remove the debasing
influences to which a large portion of the labouring population
is now subject, than to afford new means of prosperity and
virtue.
right
principles
ep
and erfectiy'aware that for the general diffusion
habits we are to look, not so much to
ofWe r
any economic arrangement and regulations, as to the influence
of a moral and religious education ; and important evidence
on the subject will be found throughout our appendix. But
one great advantage of any measure which shall remove
or diminish the evils of the present system is, that it will in
the same degree remove the obstacles which now impede the
progress of instruction and intercept its results, and will
afford a great scope to the operation of every instrument
which may be employed for elevating the intellectual and
moral condition of the poorer classes. We believe that if the
funds now destined to the purposes of education, many of
which arc applied in a manner unsuited to the present wants
of society, were wisely and economically employed, they would
be sufficient to give all the assistance which can be prudently
afforded by the State. As the subject is not within our Com-
mission we will not dwell on it further, and we have ventured
on these few remarks only for the purpose of recording our
conviction that as soon as a good Administration of the Poor
Laws shall have rendered further improvement possible, the
most important duty of the Legislature is to take measures to
promote the religious and moral education of the labouring
classes."—( Hear.) These are the words with which the
Bishop of London, the Bishop of Chester, and Mr. Sturges
Bourne conclude their valuable observations on the Poor-laws
- of England and Wales; and if the remark is true in regard to
England, it is doubly so in my opinion in respect to Ireland.
_( Hear, hear.) I do not wish to enter now upon disputed
points connected with this subject, but I have always heard it
admitted, even by those who disapprove in general of the
present system of national education pursued in Ireland, that
it is proper and expedient that the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land should be educated ; and whatever means are to be adop-
ted for so doing, I think it should be such a system of educa-
tion that the great mass of the people may look to it for im.
provement and instruction.—( Hear.) In administering Poor-
laws to Ireland Parliament should keep this in view, that
whatever is good for the moral condition of that country
they should endeavour to promote, to extend, and to mature.
(Cheers.) Not only should we employ ourselves in relieving
the indigent, in repressing outrage, and in establishing a feel-
ing of general confidence in rich and poor by so doing, but we
should endeavour also to sow the future seeds of virtuous habits,
and heighten the character of the poorer classes of Ireland.
We should endeavour to give them that wholesome education
which will enable them to do their duty to God and to man;
which shall furnish them with motives and incitements to do
so ; which shall eradicate and destroy the false notions and
views of morality which they bad formerly entertained, as re-
spects their state as subjects to the State, and as responsible
and immortal creatures.—(Cheers.) Provided we are all
agreed upon the advantages of such an education, and that all
should have the benefit of it, let us endeavour to afford it by
such means as shall not interfere with their religious opinions.
—( Hear, hear.) I shall conclude, therefore, by observing that
whilst I look upon the law which I now propose to introduce
as one likely to effect very great benefits for Ireland, I look
still more strongly hereafter to the fruits of such a system of
legislation as that I have briefly hinted at ; and I am confident
that legislators who shall accomplish such good for Ireland
will receive the reward of their own good opinion, and of the
good opinion of the whole of the inhabitants of that country.—
(The Noble Lord sat down amidst loud cheers from both sides
of the House.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the workhouse system of relief
one of the least palateable both to the payer of the rate and
to those who were driven by their necessities to apply to the
public for relief. Poverty ought not to be visited as a crime;
yet as a crime it would be visited if the workhouse system
were pursued. Another objection that he had to workhouses
was the money expended in their erection, which was, in his
opinion, so much capital lost to society. The Hon. Member
then commented upon the expense of the workhouses in Eng_
land. With regard to the plan proposed by the Noble Lord,
it appeared to him that it would not provide for half the amount
of distress which existed in Ireland; not ono half those whose
distresses would entitle them to demand relief from the Poor..
laws could be relieved even in the Noble Lord's workhouses.
He agreed in the utility of emigration, so far as affording the
means of emigrating to those who were desirous of doing so,
and he thought that ample resources might be obtained for this
purpose by the sale of waste lands in the colonies. With
regard to the administration of the law, he thought great evil
would arise unless it were administered by local authorities,
and the country were divided into districts, averaging a popu-
lation from 3,000 to 4,000. He thought also that the measure
would be unacceptable to the Irish nation if the supreme
power were vested in a central board in London in place of
-Dublin. He hoped the Noble Lord would turn his attention
again to that part of the measure which fixed the rates to be
paid by the landlords and occupiers. If the former were to
pay two-thirds, and the latter one-third, such an arrangement,
he believed, would be more judicious. He was sorry the Noble
Lord had said nothing about medical charities, dispensaries,

~~~

-
and other establishments of that kind in Ireland. These, he
thought, should not be treated as mattes of chance, but formed.
under a regularly organised system. He concurred in the ge-
neral principles of the measure.
Mr. SHAW believed all were willing to enter on the sub-
ject with the most anxious desire to discuss it impartially, and

without anything like party zeal.—( Hear, hear.) He was
afraid, however, that the Noble Lord was not fully aware of
the difficulty in limine of applying a system of Poor-laws to
Ireland, but he agreed with that part of the plan by which it
was proposed that there should not be only iii-door relief, and,
if possible, that there should not be any law of settlement. It
would be advisable also that the system should be carried into
operation by the Poor-law Commissioners already appointed,
for they were well acquainted with the state of Ireland, and
would be more likely than any other Commissioners to
shut out local prejudices. He differed from the Noble
Lord in some of the details, and particularly as to the
manner in which guardians of the poor were to be elected.
If Justices of the Peace, for instance, were to be excluded

from acting as ex-officio guardians, he apprehended there
would be great difficulty in finding fit persons to perform the
duty. The Noble Lord had proposed that the occupier should
pay one half of the rate and the landlord the other half. The
same principle was adopted in the Tithe Bill, but great diffi-
culties arose from it, because it was found in many cases almost
impossible to know in whom the right of inheritance was
vested. The principle was sound, but the application, owing
to this circumstance, was difficult. -He concurred also in the
propriety of facilitating emigration, and in providing employ-
ment for the poor on public works. Though he differed from
the Noble Lord as to the mode in which a system of education
for the poor was to be carried into effect, he agreed with him
as to its necessity; because he considered the proniotiorr of
moral and religious education the best means of reforming the
morals and increasing the happiness and industry of the people..
Ile believed the landlords were willing to bear their full share•
of the burden, and he trusted the Noble Lord would work out
such a measure as would ensuse their constant co-operation.
The O'C ONO R DON was happy that the House had ad-
mitted the principle of applying Poor-laws to Ireland, and
trusted that the measure would not be hurried through the
House, but that time would be given for discussion, and for
ascertainine- its applicability to that country. The misery of
the poor there' was so iedcscribable, that it was now full time
for the Legislature to turn its attention to the subject. The
great support which the wandering poor had hitherto received
was from the poor cottagers, and he was glad that the burden
was now to be transferred to the landlords, who he had no
doubt would willingly take a ,share. The distress was such,.
that without the introduction of some such measures without
delay, it would be almost impossible for the country to bear
either the evil or the remedy. As to education, ho consi-
dered that the only way to elevate the moral character of the
people of Ireland. He was grateful to the Governmtnt for
introducing the measure, and he trusted their hopes of success
would be realised.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know from the Noble Lord
what were the regulations which he proposed with regard to
workhouses, and the maintenance of their inmates. If he
understood the Noble Lord rightly, there was to be a certain
number, four or five, poorhouses at the commencement, but he
did not understand precisely how the funds were to be raised
fur erecting and maintaining them, and who were to have
claims for admission.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was proposed that at
the commencement there should be from ten to fifteen poor-
houses, and that all persons applying for relief in the district
should be admitted, but the Commissioners and a Board of
Guard'ans were to direct how far the relief was to bo extended.
There was to be no exclusion of any persons, and the poor were
to be supported in the workhouses from rates levied on the oc-
cupiers and landlords in the district.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, then he was to understand that
certain persons in a district were to be exclusively taxed or
rated, and that poor persons coming from any part of Ireland
were to have the right of claiming relief from the exclusively
taxed. Next, what was the fund from which the 700,000/.
was to be ra:sed?

Lord J. RUSSELL said the sum was to be raised by loan
on the general taxes, and paid by instalments.
Mr. O'CONNELL next inquired if; after 100 workhouses
had been erected, there were to be any law of settlement; and
if that were to be a parochial or district settlement?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that was a point to be discussed
at a further stage of the measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL asked if he were to understand that a
certain district was to be taken, and all persons coming into
that district were to have the power of claiming relief?
Lord J. RUSSELL—Yes. _ _

Mr. O'CONNELL was not so sanguine as the Noble Lord
as to the beneficial results of the plan ; but he had no doubt
the gentlemen of the country, and he could speak for himself,
would consider it their duty to use every means in their power
to carry it into effect. Government having once announced
the plan, it would be impossible, and, even if it were possible,
it would be inexpedient, not to proceed with it. Such being
the case, every one ought to render his assistance, and he for
one would be ready to render his assistance in every way in
which it might be required to carry out the details of the memr
sure in such a manner as, if possible, might make it practically
useful.—(Hear, hear.) He was much afraid, however, that
the Noble Lord greatly underrated the amount of the evil
with which they had to struggle. The Noble Lord had stated
that he proposed so to divide the poor to be maintained in
workhouses that there should be a hundred workhouses in
Ireland, each containing on an average about eight hundred
indi~idualg; making in the whole eighty thousand. But on
what ground could the Noble Lord entertain any reason to
believe that the number of persons in Ireland requiring to
be maintained would be so small ? For his (Mr. O'Con-
nell's) part he could not conceive the possibility of such a
thing, or that so small a sum as :300,000/. a year would meet
the necessary expense. If be could bring himself to believe
in the accuracy of that statement—if he could bring himself to
believe that for so small a sum—small as compared with the
existing evil—the object in view could be accomplished, ho
should not hesitate a single moment in voting for it. But ho
repeated his fear that the Noble Lord's calculations were
founded on an erroneous data. By the Report of the Com-
missioners of Poor-law Inquiry in Ireland, it appeared that
there were in that country about 565,000 persons in a state of
destitution. The sum had been made up from the different
localities. The Commissioners had had the evidence of the
clergy, of the resident gentry, and of the paupers themselves in
the various subdivisions of districts, and that was the result of
their calcination. And yet the Noble Lord calculated on there
being only 80,000 paupers to maintain in the workhouses.
That calculation was founded on Mr. Nicholls's Report. Mr.
Nicholls might be a very able man, but it was impossible not
to feel that the g►rounds on which he proceeded in his estimate
were fallacious. However, he (Mr. O'Connell) would vote
for the Bill in all its previous stages; and when it came into
the Committee he would endeavour to introduce into it some
provisions that, in his opinion, would be calculated to facili-
tate its object. But it had been said that the plan ought to
go gradually into operation. To that he totally objected.
He was decidedly adverse to prolonging the evils which must
attend a transition state ; a state in which the poor of Ireland
would have neither the alms at present bestowed upon them,
nor the relief from the public which it was in contemplation
to bestow. One object of the Bill was to prevent disturbance
in Ireland. But if they began by distributing relief in only
one district, would not that excite other districts to disturb-
ance? If the poor in one district were made comfortable,
would not that instantly cause great excitement among the
poor in the neighbouring districts, until they were placed in
a similar situation ? By broaching the plan they would take
away the disposition in Ireland to give alms any longer to
those who were by that plan to be made the objects of
public support ; and for which purpose a tax in money was
in six or eight months to be levied. And when the mea-
sure should be passed, he knew very little indeed of Ireland
and of the character of its people who could anticipate
that its result would be to tranquillize the country. By the
evidence to be found in the Report of the Commissioners
of Poor Inquiry in Ireland, and in other quarters, it dis-
tinctly appeared that there was no population in the world
among which sentiments of affection and attachment be-
tween parents and children, between sons and mothers, were
more powerful than among the labouring population of Ire-
land. So strong were these feelings, so anxious were the la-
bourers of that country to do all they could to assist and sup-
port their poor and destitute friends, that they refused the most
tempting offers to emigrate to other countries, and preferred
starving at home with their friends. The moment, however,
that the Legislature passed a Poor-law for Ireland, all this
warm feeling would be diminished, and God knew, therefore,
that they ought to hesitate before they took a step the conse-
quences of which would be to damp natural affections. It was
in distinct evidence that there was no keener reproach than
that which fell upon any young man in the labouring classes
who allowed his poor mother to leave his door without assis-
tance. The very report of the coining law' would create a
state of transition that would almost put down this feeling.
Ireland would be rendered one scene of turbulence if the mea-
sure, once introduced, were not immediately and entirely car-
ried into effect. What it was thought desirable to do should
be done at once. Let the country be taken by districts, by
counties, by half-counties ; but let there be no intervening pe-
riod between the concoction and the execution of the plan. He
was much gratified to find that the Noble Lord had thrown
overboard the notion of employing any persons in Ireland out
of the Poor-rates. That was a favourite project with some
persons, but anything more preposterous, he could not con-
ceive—and he was rejoiced that the Noble Lord had
abandoned it. Was it not a fact established beyond the pos-
sibility of contradiction, that Ireland was a country capable of
being cultivated to au extent twice or thrice that of its existing
cultivation ? One-fourth of Ireland was waste land, capable
of being brought into tillage, yet never so brought ; and yet
the country was so circumstanced—so mysterious was her con-
dition—that her labourers, who were capable of bringing her
rich and fertile soil into cultivation, instead of being so em-
ployed, were to be shut up idly in poor-houses ! For bo it
remembered that a Poor-law would give no actual increase of
wealth to any class. It would be a division of wealth.
_lt

would apply a portion of the wealth of one class to the feeding
of another class within stone walls, and maintaining them in
a state of idleness. This did not arise from any indisposition
on the part of the labouring classes to labour. It was in evi-
dence that the labouring population of that country were most
anxious to get labour. Ile was sure he need not appeal to
English gentlemen on that point. lie was sure he need not
remind them of the hundreds of thousands of Irish who an-
nually repaired to this country, many of them from the most
remote districts of Ireland, in order to obtain labour. Thera
was no necessity, therefore, to institute poor-houses in Ireland
for the purpose of stimulating the labouring population to work.
When, however, by the introduction of their measure, they stopt
the sources of private benevolence, it was indispensable t°
afford relief in some other way. As it was quite out of the
question to relieve the poor at large, this experiment
must
be made. It was impossible now to think of endeavouring
to prevent it. The Noble Lord talked of a rate going

0
vn to persons holding to the value of 5/. a-year,
who were to be exempt. The landlords were in
their case to pay. But what exemption would that
1)e to the tenant ? If he had a lease, indeed, he would be
safe. Otherwise, if he did not pay in the shape of aate, he
Would be made to pay in the shape of rent. It would be in-
finitely better to simplify the rate, and to let it be levied on
rent, and on rent alone. He was desirous of making a pro-
position, which he feared would not be favourably received
there ; still less in what it was the usage to call " another
Place."—(A laugh.)—That proposition was, that owners of
land in Ireland, who did not reside in that country, should
be male to pay a double rate.—(Hear, hear.)—There was no
landlord resident in Ireland who did not pay money to the
pauper population, and by that means relieve his estate from
pressare. Absentees paid nothing ; they never gave even
sixpence to a messenger sent to the Post-office. They
rfforded no pecuniary relief whatever to the labouring
classes. Now it was but a matter of common justice that
n'ell who possessed estates in Ireland, and who resided else-
wisere, and who, therefore, in no way contributed to the relief
of the pauper population, should pay a higher rate than men
Who resided, and who assisted to relieve that population. It
was ti ell known that many landlords in Ireland employed the
labouring classes in various ways which were not always pro-
ductive. He (Mr. O'Connell) knew a gentleman of the name
of Smith, near Youghal, who always kept seven or eight hun-
dred labourers employed. Indeed there was no resident gen-
tleman in Ireland who did not employ labourers to a greater
or less extent. And were they to pay the same rate as owners
of land not resident in Ireland, and who personally employed
nobody ? It was said by Lord Clare that Ireland had been
forfeited three times over; and that every man's claims to
landed property there were founded on rapine and plunder.
What was the consequence ? That having parcelled out the
land to the conquerors in three distinct conquests, the possessors
came to England and did not reside upon the soil which they
owned. At the proper time he would take two or three divisions
as to the way in which the rate was to be laid on, and especially as
to the expediency of increasing the rate on non-residents. Many
persons probably thought that a poor rate in Ireland would
relieve the English labourer by keeping the Irish labourer
et home. That was a delusion. What was the course now
Pursued ? As many unmarried labourers as could come came
to England. If a Poor-law were established, married la-
bourers would also come, knowing that their families would
be supported in their absence. This measure, therefore,
which was probably considered by many persons as a benefit,
a godsend to the English labourer, would prove quite the re-
'verse. He was much surprised to find the Noble Lord under
the impression that it was these paupers who made the cons-
Petition for land in Ireland. It was a class much above them.
Take the 2,300,000 poor out of the country, and the compe-
tition would be the same. For the reasons which he had
already stated, he by no means wished that the measure
should proceed with the slowness recommended by the Ho-
nourable Member for Roscommon. On the contrary, the
mere speedily he thought would be the more wisely.
Being now introduced, the sooner it was carried into
effect the better. Delays were dangerous. Having bold
out a hope of relief, that hope, if it could be realised,
ought to be realised as expeditiously as possible. They
Would otherwise deprive the poor of the assistance, whether
from the benevolence of their superiors or the affection of
their equals, which they now received. He implored the
Bonn therefore to put their hands to the work, to proceed
With it, day by day, until it was completed. Let the whole
hundred workhouses be filled at once. That would lessen
the probability of any disturbance. He also implored them
to think again upon the subject of emigration. The co-
lonics, they say, were averse to the reception of emigrants.
'Yes; because it had always been made a medium for job-
b.ag. Why might not we succeed, as the Americans had
done, by the sale of land? A hundred thousand pounds had
been realised in the year in that manner in New South
Vales. Let those who were capable of labour be sent out ;
,lat money be laid out for them in the purchase of laud; and
03' their labour they would soon acquire the land themselves.
This was a subject which deserved, and which he trusted
would receive, the consideration of Government and the
House. There would be no difficulty in borrowing money for
the purpose on the credit of the lands themselves ; and fifty
or a hundred thousand persons who were now in a state of
destitution might be sent out at once. Let that be added to
the relief which the workhouses would afford, and Poor-laws
might perhaps be rendered efficient in Ireland. Efficient or
not, however, Poor-laws in that country there must now be.
Lord HOWICK was rejoiced to find his anticipations that
the present question would be discussed without irritation, or
reference to party politics, realized. At the same time he was
anxious to remove from the minds of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Kilkenny, and any other Hon. Gentlemen, the
impresaion that the proposed measure was one of greater diffi-
etflty, and was accompanied by less prospect of success than
Was anticipated by his Noble Friend. He was quite aware
that on the first bfush the evils of the existing state of things
were such that the proposed remedy might naturally enough
appear disproportioned to them. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman For Kilkenny had referred to the Report of the Corn-
Inis.sioners of Poor Inquiry in Ireland, and had argued that his
Noble Friend had greatly underrated the amount of the pauper
Population in that country. He could not believe that the es-
timate of the number of those who were really in a state of
destitution had been underrated by his Noble Friend. But
when he looked to the first point to which he necessarily di-
rected his attention, it was this : what were the causes of that
distress which prevailed in Ireland ? The Honourable and
Learned Member for Kilkenny had said, and he had said it truly,
that the Irish were an industrious hard-working people, who, if
they knew-that labour would be afforded to them in this coun-
tiY, immediately flocked over here to maintain themselves in
honest industry. It had been proved in evidence before the
emigration Committee of 1827, that the Mendicity Society
In this town were obliged to discontinue the offer Of employ-
111°14 a‘ sixpence a day, because, at even these low wages,
Fore persons were found to apply than could be so em-
ployed. The next point for consideration had reference to
the national resources of Ireland ; and, were her means dimi-
nished, might they not be still applied for the good of the
eountry ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had told them,
and he believed truly, that there was no part of Ireland which
night not by increased skill, and by the application of labour
d capital, '
be made ten times more productive than it now
Was, and, moFeover, that one-fourth of the surface of her soil
even now remained unimproved and uncultivated. They had
taPital and abundance of labour there, and upon that point he
Could not help asking how it happened that in this country,
hen any undertaking offered a plausible pretext of success,
Millions of capital were ready for investment in such a spe-
culation--nay, when capital was always so ready to be ad-
vanced, that millions had been heedlessly lavished in all
Parts of the world—why was it, he would ask, with abund-
ance of capital, an industrious and labouring population,
that ample means of employ for this capital—why was it
t Ireland presented no means of employment.— ( Cries
" hear.") The answer to this question was to be found
vthe able report made by Mr. Nicholls. It was because a
Mous circle had been established. There was a feeling of
_nsecurity in respect to Irelnnd which prevented the invest-
meet of capital there, and the employment of her additional
bmeans of labour. But if it were desirable to remove the tur-
tence of the people, that must be the great object to which
H
r inquired ti
e eorts ofhe ouse must b directed. No man could
have inquired nto the subject without knowing that the
'ief cause of that turbulence which prevented the influx of
capital arose from the instinct of self-preservation among the
labouring classes. It promoted conspiracies amongst them,
4114 led them to enforce their views (and perhaps they were
eot altogether mistaken) for their own benefit, as they con-
leived. It was this feeling which induced them to refuse to
44w a landlord to dispossess his tenant, and by which they
enforced those persecutions by sanguinary punishment. Any
tentlenien who had read the very clever work by Mr. George
awls, on the subject of Irish disturbances, would see an
bal/ais of the whole cause of the state of things. He thought
that th would find the dread of starvation and hunger was
riongstey the many causes of the disturbances which prevailed
Itirt Ireland. But if this were the cause, he would ask the
gonourable and Learned Member, did it not follow
.that what they were to do was, not to provide for the
whole of the people permanently, but to step in by an inter-
Position of the Legislature, and arrest the chief of those
7,llses which in succession were perpetuating each other?
• "ey had to take away from the minds of the people the feel-
Plng of their subsistence not being secured to them. They
ad to do this, and, having effected that object, they would
an end to that notion which was the great cause of that
turbulence which presented itself in Ireland. o man, he
th9aght, could doubt the immediate result of acNcomplishing
is great object of promoting thd welfare of the Irish people,
wouldthis state of probation. He had no doubt that capital
i'uld flow in from this country to Ireland, to take advantage
cthe cheap labour which Ireland afforded. That being the
tate, he said they might calculate upon a great effect being
raduced by a small number of workhouses being instituted;
°cause it was not the extent of relief actually necessary—
was leas
co.. not the relief given, which produces an effect in this
t,•"atrY and keeps the people in tranquillity, but it is the cer-
ecl.ltY that, if the necessity should unfortunately arise, that
was here to be obtained. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
be 'llan had said that workhouses were of use in this country,
''cruse a very vicious system had crept in, and by these
workhousesthat you stimulated the idle to industry ; and that
to hlwas the object of erecting workhouses. But it seemed
tle ran (Viscount Howick) that the Hon. and Learned Gen-
,ll overlooked another very important consideration-
-o,"elY, that while the poor were sure to obtain admission
iiet.,boanth,l sides, yet on the one side there was a.certainty of re-
.rfeni.ieforte other there was the counteracting principle of
being given only where it was really wanted, and
.r.L.ter) Were, not really wanted, it could not be obtained.
efore he maintained that in creating workhouses in Ire-
sthey need not look to relieving permanently any e.on.si-
eluetriable number of persons. He should say that in his onion
zit consteitstely the number of persons to be relieved in the work-is „I_ Poposed to be raised in Ireland would be smaller than
eic_as In this country, because, as the Hon. and Learned Gen-
th_t?rall had truly stated, the affectionate feelings of parents to
and :Children among the Irish people were remarkably strong,
relicti.n4le midst of the misery they endured, and the want of
famed
the
they experienced, the feelings of relations re-
feelio "9 the same : and they had now interfered with those
af nature, which, to a great extent, in the south of
thaZt,", had been extinguished.- There could be no doubt
leer
or. recs Were in England, in the work-houses, a greater num-
h m.rm than of able-bodied persons. But in Ireland, lie
,:nlanion doubt that those feelings to which he had alluded would
'a the la full force—there would still bo a great disposition
rerfttakairta; of the labouring classes to prevent their parents
:yen b_ g refuge in these asylums, if they were enabled,
ity, %Teat sacrifices, to save them from so painful a neces-
a!sistin firm conviction was; that in passing this Bill, and
46 Nobles cominE.
o operation in the manner hinted at by
establish a friend in • t a
short space of time "f th ld
, y
odyCM C
"ling of security to- Ireland, the whole bof