The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-16 00:00:00

EV rkr \r(4r FDTTEON

,:dual uttered a single word in its favour.
near.) He hat known legislative measures of the
eessi ble importance entirely defeated, solely and ex-
--her, on the ground of their being impolitic or im-
er ricarnres—aot from a distrust of the Government—bue
enese ;nest had been supported by a certain Member.—
( lisar. ) V;e-s it not fair, then, to infer from the character of
1 the moo.; promineut partisan io Ireland (Eirl Roden) the natui e
I and the tendency of the motion which he had brought forward?
--( Hear. hear. ) it was that, in fact, made all the difference
Letween a motion for inquiry and a vote of censure.—(Hear,
it certainly was open to the Members of either
?eel:au:tent to move a vott) of censure on the Govern-
But it was not fair, when such a motion had been
I grieved, to turn round and. say, " Oh, there is no offence, no
, ;reediest in the world."—( Loud cheers.) The question at
issee was of vital importance to the interests of Ireland. He
( the Chaneellor of the Exchequer) could not help observing,
I that it was rather singular that this motion in the House of
Lords, for a substantial vote of censure on the Government po-
i hey respecting Ireland, shouldhave been deferred till Lord Nor-
I manby had left the government of that part. of the empire.
1 It was not until the Marquis of Normanby had been replaced
I
by Lon' Ebrington, that any mention of a practical censure
I upon the former had been made in the other House. On the
1 benches opposite there were three Gallant Colonels, who
I were in the habit of annnally entertaining the House upon ques-
tions of Trieh policy, yet they never brought forward a motion
in this instance. The Right Hon. Bart. asked why did not
1 they insert the words " legislative policy," as well as " execu-
I tive policy," in their motion, if they thought, as they said, that
1 the eeneral administration of her Majesty's Govornment was
involved in this quet tion. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
iwould at once give the reason ; her Majesty's Ministers were re-
I sponsible for their executive policy, because they had the power
k of doino as they thought right ; but as for their legis-
I latlee Policy they were only responsible for those measures they
propounded to that House : they did the best they could to
tarry those measures ; but he would base it understood, that if
frein pat iv differences, or want of unanimity between the two
Houses, they could not carry out those measures, they were not
resnonsible for the law of the land. —(Cheers.) The Right
linitiourahle Gentleman said he objected to the resolution
as vague and uncertain. " Did they mean to include
the Governments of Lords Wellesley, Grey, and even
I his (Sir Robert Peel's) Administration ?" He (the Char.-
cellor of the Exchequer) would rely that the Ministers were
.I here clefeteding themselves on the issue set forth by the House
$ of Lords—the house of Lords had, according to his construe-
:lea of the resolution, charged the present Government with
. beMig the cause of the crimes that had rendered life and pro-
perty insecure in Ireland since 1835. It was enough for him
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to argue there was nothing
to justify that inference. True, the Right Honourable
1 Baronet asked them to extend the motion further back,
arid Wee an able tactician, as he always proved himself to be,
it) his speech, and in his amendment endeavoured to make
ieends with every possible party in the House, in order to
'.g-ee with such extension ; but he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
t ) seeine that that mode would be exceedingly pleasant
,eble, to the Right Heii.Bart., ielt it hisparticalar duty
~.—(Laughter and cheers.) The Right Honour-
..-:et said that if they did not extend their motion they
e euld be guity of desertion and ingratitude to Lords Welles-
I lee end Cray, but he denied that, for as those Noble Lords were
ti it attacked, they were not bound to argue their case. The
Rigid lies'. Bart. accused them of rushing into col rsion with
tin! if ruse of Lords, and at the same time he said that the
Lords did net mean to censure the Government during four
rase; that being the case then, he (the Chancellor of Exche-
r) ',eh:l-titled that the. House of Commons, in exempt-
Vitiisl ere from a censure, did not rush into
with the Lo .ds, for there being n 3 opposition,
.u 1 to the Hon. Baronet, there could be no collision-
-1 thinefore, the collision existed only in the terrified imagination
1 of the Right Hon. Gentleman. As for the phrase " a prima
I flick case of censure," used by his Noble Friend, and which
I had l'een It id such: hold off by the lion. Baronet, he begged to
say that that- phrase was a quotation, having been used by a
Neble and Learned Lord in the other House.—( Hear, hear.)
The Ilieht Honourable Gentleman again had said that the
Noble Lied celled up, n the House to decide without evidence ;
now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could furnish evi-
dence to show that the House should not receive, as facts, all
the rehires of crimes that had been laid before them—the ne-
ceetity of this caution would be partly explained by a single
fact. Under the former state of the law the Clerks of the
1 Peace and Crown in Ireland were paid not by salaries, but by
I fees, under the 49;11 of George 111., which specified a certain
I foe tier every criminal indicted and tried for murder or felony,
I or any other crime, and then, in order to augment their fees,
tie. t 04.3 employed their ingenuity in multiplying,
iof went in every variety of way. Under this system
lie (ate Chancellor of the Exchequer) had known the same
men to have been indicted for murder, next indicted for a con-
spiracy to murder, next indicted for attacking a house, next in-
dieted for a burglary at common law, next indicted for White-
boy offences, next indicted for a conspiracy to take arms, next
indicted for being aimed at night, and next indicted for wear-
ing a degger against the Whiteboy Act.—(Laughter.) New
this man was made by the Clerks to plead to a variety of indict-
menu, fur every one of which they were paid a sep-_
rate fee, and upon the return of which the same
man wae represented to be so many different offenders.
Those returns were not entirely to be depended upon, as they
we, a !Fawn up very ioesely. As an instance of that he recollected
a ease sellich occurred while he was a Grand Juror : a man had
been indicted feet murder, and the very first witness that was
called was the very man who was supposed to have bees
xnuniered.—(Laughter. ) A true bill was found
egeinst the man for manslaughter, and in that
ease there were two re: urns made, one of the murder and ano-
ther of the manslaughter.—( Hear, hear.) With reference to
the proceedings of Lord Normanby relative to the exercise of
the prerostative of mercy, it must always be borne in mind, that
in the gash in Ireland the parish clergyman was made the in-
spector of priori's, and he had generally eound the returns they
nettle were most to be depended upon. Looking at the
I convictions in 1632 and 1838, no person could doubt the
improved condition of Ireland ; between those years both the
convictions and committals had greatly decreased. No person
coold doubt that during the last four years, the laws had been
muter more effectually administered .in Ireland, than they had
Ibeen in revious years, and yet the House of Lords had come
; to the cieeirion that during that period, life and: pro-
lo tv had become insecure. Now, as a proof that
Ireland was in a more tranquil state than she had
been for years he need only advert to the difference
1 in the military employed in that country in the year 1807 and
• at the present time. In 1807 the military force in Ireland ex-
-1
seeded 40,000, in 1833 it exceeded 23,000, in 1836 17,000,
i end at the present time it was not more than 15,347; therefore
there was a great reduction in the military strength of Ireland.
He would appeal to a military Gentleman. opposite as to the
present state of Ireland, and what it was in former times.
In many of th, most important districts in Ireland
) crime had been almost put an end to. He could recollect the
i time when, in Limerick, parties were 4.bliged to be escorted by
t tine plies or the military. He could remember the period
! when the King's Judges could not go the circuit without being
troteeted by a strong body of armed men ; and in the same
1 county, during the last two years, he had seen but one single
I offender in centedy, aced he was impsisoned for the crime of
I being drunk on a Sunday.—( Hear. ) If such was the case
i l'" eet:111 he conscientiously acquiesce in the vote of the
[louse of Lords, which directly assumed that life and property
! hiss! been insecure for the last four years, and that it had been
I rendered so by the acts of the present Government. One word
i with reieeet to the prerogative of mercy—the Right Hon.
I Gen. km n had touched rather lightly upon that subject—he
had stated that he had objected to the remission of sentences
; without coesultation of the Judges. Now with respect to that
hi- irould advert to an authority that wai higher than the
Right lion Gentleman himself—one who had been a Judge, and
watt therefore competent to speak upon the question.
In thee discussion that had taken place upon the subject of Lord
Norraanhy's exercise of the prerogative of the crown, he was
charged with not having consulted the Judges, before whom
the parties were tried. He would show the House that Lord
Normanby had authority, and not a very inconsiderable one, for
the course he had pursued :—" It was stated to me that I had
tries! prisoners who were capitally convicted.—l had revised all
the eircumstances of their cases, without discovering a single
reeson why their sentences should be commuted, and I repre-
sented to the Government that I could not recommend them
to mercy. Nevertheless mercy has been more than once ex-
tended to them, and I verily believe upon faie and just principles."
Such was the statement made by Lord Loughborough when
lie was Lord Chancellor, and from which it appeared that men
were pardoned. or had their sentences commuted, when he re-
cornet against it, and that this hail not only been done, but
rightly and properly done.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman bad told them the principles upon which he meant
to act, and he must say that he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
)
titer), differed in very little from the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman. For instance, he had a great dislike to Orange Asso-
1
e,!a_tions, and there was an identity of principle on that point,
These opinions must have been as binding upon the Right
Hon. Gentleman in 1d34, as at the present moment ; and if
he entertained them he should have eschewed all eennexion
vrifh members of the Orange Association. If he recollected
, however, the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Treasurer of
the Ordnance, etas a member of that Association. Although he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) believed him to be an ex-
:remote' harmless, good-natured, and inoffensive personage, and
one who was by no means likely to blow up an Administration.
—(Rear, and a laugh.) He knew not whether the Noble
Rid (Iladdington) had a leaning that way, but no sooner was
he in Ireland than an Orange flag was seen waving over
him.—(Hear, and cries of "Oh !") The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman might declare that be would forswear the connection,
but he wauld find it much easier to make that declaration than
to carry it into effect. The Right lion. Gentleman com-
plained that her Majesty's Government had not removed the
Lefil Lieutenant of Cavan, in consequence of a speech which
he had made spun a late occasion. That speech
be understood was capable of explanation, but it was a speech
of which he disapproved and dissented from as entirely as the
Right Hon. Gentleman himself could do. Rut he asked was
there no other speech made by another Lord Lieutenant ?
Sit). PEEL—But a distinction ought to be drawn between

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