The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-09 00:00:00

STATE OF THE NATION

Lord ALTHORP, on presenTingaietition from
a parish in the county of Northampton, complaining
of distress, made the following observations :—Str,
there is in the country a very sanguine expectation
that its distresses are to be relieved by a large re-
duction of the taxes which press upon the labouring
and productive classes, and I am of opinion that the
expectation is just and well-founded. I hope that
the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer
prepared to make such a reduction. But I confess
that from what I have heard, both in and out of this
House, I cannot think that his Majesty's Ministers
are sufficiently impressed with the extent of the
distress under which the country is suffering. I
thought it right to make this declaration, that his
Majesty's Ministers should have due notice not only
of what the expectation of the country is, but also
of the course which I and those who act with me
mean to take in this House. We have no hostility
to his Majesty's Ministers. We do not wish to see
them removed from their places. But we are bound
to do all in our power to carry reduction to the
farthest possible extent, in order that relief may be
afforded to the country. I repeat that we have no
wish to see his Majesty's Ministers removed from
their places, and least of all have we any interested
motives in taking a course which may be the cause
of their removal. For myself I can say, as I have
often said before, that I can see no possible case in
which I should be induced to accept office. But we
feel that whatever may he the consequences, we must
press upon Ministers the absolute necessity of a large
reduction of those taxes which bear so heavily
upon the labouring and industrious classes of the
community.

TURKISH FLEET---PATRAS.
Sir G. COCKBURN took the present opportu-
nity of acquainting the Noble Lnrd that he had re-
deemed his promise, and made inquiries relative to
the late operations of our Naval Commander on the
coasts of Greece, in covering the fortification of
Pietas. The interference of our Naval Commander
originated in his having been made acquainted,
through one of our frigates, that the Turkish squadron
was bearing up from Navarin for Patras; in conse-
quence of which the Admiral approached the
squadron of Padrone Bey, and remonstrated against
his entering Patras, acquainting him that such a step
would be in violation of the faith pledged to the
British Commander by Padrone Bey, His reply
was in the usually laconic strain of the Mahomedan,
"if you permit us to go on to Patras, well—if not,
well ; but we will not resist you, should you sink
us." The squadron continuing its course on towards
Patras, a gun by our ship was discharged, which did
not, nor was it intended it should, strike any of the
Turkish squadron ; but it had the desired effect, and
they changed their course, and our Admiral retired
to Zante. A second attempt, however, was subse-
quently made to make Patras,and our Admiral again
bore up to the Turkish squadron, which was soon
after seen communicating by signal with Ibrahim,
the Commander of the Egyptian squadron. It was,
therefore, thought advisable to wait, so as to permit
an opportunity to ascertain what effect the signal
made might have on altering the apparent destination
of these vessels, and, as was partly anticipated, they
soon after shaped another course, and took up a
station in the road of Navarin. In a few days after
however, the Turkish fleet was announced to be agan
under weigh for Patras,and the English Commander
again approached it, firing a few guns, in order to
compel them to show its colours. This being com-
plied with, and the Turkish Commander Padrone
having required a written voucher from our Admi-
ral, that he had been compelled by him to desist
from his enterprise by force, as his head would other-
wise answer for his disobedience of orders, the
Turkish squadron again bore away for Navarin Bay.
In none of the three instances had any resistance been
offered to our Admiral by the Turks.

Lord ALTHORP had certainly heard, from very
excellent authority—an officer in the squadron
there—that the affair had not been the discharge of
one gun, but a discharge of several, and a partial
engagement, in which a loss of life had been the
consequence.

Sir GEORGE COCKBURN assured the
Noble Lord he had collected his information from
oflicial sources which he had reason to consider suffi-
ciently authentic.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL alluded to the gallantry
and conduct which had distinguished the Comman-
ders of the united squadrons of England, France,
and Russia, in the celebrated battle fought at Nava-
rin, and regretted that its history had been unat-
tempted until within these few days, when an ac-
count of it appeared in the " Foreign Quarterly."
Sir HENRY PARNELL moved for Accounts
of the Ordinary Revenue of Great Britain and Ire-
land since the passing of the Union with Ireland;
together with the Expense of the Collection.—
Ordered.

The Returns were, on the amendment of Mr.
HUME, continued up to the conclusion of last year.
MARINE MUTINY BILL.
Mr. CROKER brought it, the Bill for the Re•
gtdation of the Royal Marine Forces for tlte present

year; which was read a first time, and ordered to
be read a second time to-morrow.
At the request of the CHANOKLLOR of the Ex-
enEguEe,
Mr. HUME postponed his :notion relative to 'die
Settlement and Establishment of Sierra Leone, in-
timating a hope that, as the Right Hon. Gentleman
seemed unprepared to enter upon that subject, it
might possibly happen that he would take it ban
his head to advise the reduction of that Colony
without his (Mr. Hama's) interposition.
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PEEL) then
moved the Order of the Day for the House going
into a Committee of Supply.
BRITISH MUSEUM.

Mr. BANKES moved that 16,1431. be granted
for the expenses of the British Museum during the
current year. The estimate was something less than
that of I,st year, but did not require, he 11.ou?;ht,
any detailed explanation. He was willing to atTord
every explanation in his power on any point con-
nected with the expenditure of the grant.
Mr. HL ME wished to know why greater facilities
were not afforded to the public for viewing the
Museum ? Why was it opened but three days in
the week, and even then but for a few hours ? Ile
would not go so far as to assert that the grant dimi-
nution of visitors last year to the British Museum,
as compared with those of the preceding, was. alto-
gether owing to the want of greater facility .of
ingress, for he was aware that the satiating of public
curiosity must tend to diminish the annual number
of visitors ; but he would contend, that there must
be more than this circumstance to account for so
great a falling off as 127,000, the number of visitors
in 1829, to 68,000, the numb. -r of lag year. lie
saw no reason why the Museem should net be open
five days instead of three, for the ralarirs paid to the
officers were sufficiently liberal to command ago-voter
portion of their time and services.

Mr. JEPHSON begged !etre to angzeat the ex-
pediency of keeping the reading room of the Museum
open to a certain hoar in the evening.
Mr. TRANT considered the present regulation,
by which children under a certain age were prohibi,ed
from visiting the Museum, highly objectionable. It
only opened the door for lying ; far parents said their
children were of such and such n age when they
were not so much, in order to ensure their admis-
sion. He had taken his own children, but had thee
satisfaction of seeing others younger admitted, w:rile
they were refused, merely because he had a regard
to truth.

Mr. BANKES begged leave to say, in reply to
the lion. Member for Moutro=t►, that the officers of
the Museum were engaged six days in the week,
though the Museum wad, an he stated, open but
three days to the p'd On the other days it was
usual for the trustees to admit their friends, and
those who sought tt private visit, as a fa►•our, to the
Museum. With respect to the falling off in tho
number of visitors, he was sure the House ekotild
gratified to learn, that though there was a diminu-
tion of the number of visitors to the Museum, there
was a larger increase tin the numbcr of students who
frequented the reading-room and studied in the gal-
lery of art.
Mr. P. THOMSON should wish to see the liberal
system pursued by the trustees of the Royal Library
and the Magazine Library acted upon by those of
the British Museum. In those places any gentleman
who gave a fair proof of his respectability might
take home any scarce valuable work which might be
necessary to his studies with a view to the promo-
tion of science or literature.

After a few words from Mr. Banker, Mr. Jepli-
son, Mr. Sadler, Mr. Bright, Mr. Hume, and
D. Gilbert, the resolation was agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES.

Sir H. HARDING& moved that 126,000/. be
granted for the pay of General Oaleers, net Colonel:,
for the year 1830.
Mr. MABERLY wished to direct the attention
of the Committee to the annually-increming amount
of the present estimate—an amount which he
begged leave to add, that but for the efforts of the
Right Hon. and Gallant Secretary at War, would
be still greater. The thanks of the country were
due to the Gallant Secretary for his endeavours to
check the amount of this ossimate—one, indeed,
which it vas more difficult to reduce, for many
reasons, than perhaps any other in the army depart-

ment.
The next resolution was for 36,6t5P/. 7s. 8,1., for
defraying the expenses of garrisons at home and
abroad, for 1830.
Mr. HUME thought that this grant really de-
served more consideration than he had ever been
able to obtain for it : it was, in fact, one full of mili-
tary sinecures. He had no wish to deprive the Go-
vernment of the means of providing for old officers;
but it was really too much to have governors, for
instance, for such plaesa as Carrickfergus.
Sir H. HARDINGE replied, that all these re-
tired offices stood on a particular basis,—namely•,
that of being the only means in the hands of the
Crown for the remuneration of old officers. He
readily admitted that they were military sinecures;
but, when he considered how few they were, com-
pared to the list of 13,000 officers on full and half
pay, he thought it would be ungracious indeed to
deprive the Crown of this mode of repaying old,
and faithful, and disabled officers.
After a few words from Mr. SADLER and Mr.
MABERiY, the resolution was agreed to.
Mr. HUME complained of the form in which
these accounts were made out. Why not pat some
of these items of expenditure upon the head of effec-
tive service, instead of making them up under colo-
nial accounts ? These colonies ought to b. made to
supply this expenditure, instead of palming upon
Great Britain the payment of their governors, lieu-
tenant-governors, town-majors, &e.
Sir H. HARDINGE assured the Hon. Member
that the Government were taking every means of
economizing in this department of the public service,
and making the colonies as available as poseible in
this respect.
The resolution for 104,0001., the full-pay of le-
tired officers, was agreed to, without any conversa-
tion.

On that of 720,859/. Its. 10d., for half-pay and
military allowances,
Mr. HUME objected, and complained that the
Government had not reduced this list, by filling up
commissions from it as vacancies enabled them, in-
stead of saddling the country with two classes of
pensioners. He quoted a letter from the Duke of
Marlborough to the Secretary at War, dated on the
30th of June, 1715, announeing it to be the deter-
mination of his Majesty, that all new consmissinns
should, as far as it was practicable, be made out
from the retired list ; so that neither favour nor
interest should prejudice the just claims of old
officers, and inflict a disservice upon the public. I he
example of the Duke of Marlborough could, he
thought, with propriety be followed by the Duke of
Wellington, and if it had been done on the late
peace, half the present charge would before this
time have been got rid of. Thera was, besides, a
resolution of this House urns, rem on the motion of
Mr. Sandys, on the 12th of December, 1740, pre-
cisely to the same effect. Being unaware that either
the War-office order of 1715, or the resolution of
1740, had been revoked, he was at a loss to know
why they were not acted upon. He was also de-
sirous of knowing what steps had been taken to buy
up the half-pay of certain classes, seconding to the
existing regulation. When he put these questions,
he begged to do full justice to the Right Hon.
Secretary's exertions, which were, he knew, very
beneficial and meritorious; the extravagance lay at
the door of his predecessors in office.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the War-office
were carefully acting on the regulation alluded to,
and by its operation he believed there had been I2U
subalterns' commissions reduced, and an advantage
pro trod() gained of 125 per cent., by the buying up
of such commissions. With respeet to the reason
why the Duke of Wellington could not act on the
recommendation quoted from tine Duke of Marl-
borough, it was this—that at the former period
England had only two colonies to attend to, fold
therefor() the plot) olhule4 fe ci4144 be esecnted--

He explained the operation of the present plan of
reducing commissions, which was, he said, acted on
without the infliction of injustice upon other officers
in foreign el mate,,, and that by it, since the peace of
1815, a saving of 3,495/. had occurred in the annual
intyments of this branch alone, the half pay being
reduced from 18,4051. to 14,9101.

Mr. IIUME understood the Right Hon. Gent:,
remark applied to the foreign service; but wen
there not at the same time new commissions giving
in the Foot Guards and Household Troops P

11.11ARDINGE said that there had been
the usual reduction of certain companies in thew•
troops, although, of course, some fresh ensigns must
have been since the peace appointed.

Some conversation then arose bctween Mr.
MoNcic, Mr. lit:3m, and Sir H. HARDINGE, to
o.tcertain how far the amount for any new commi-
sions sold had been rendered available in reduction
of the military expenditure, when Sir HENRY pro-
mised to furnish any accounts which were necessary
to render this elucidation.

The vote of '720,859/. 12s. 10d. was then agreed
to, as well as another or 91,900/. for foreign half-pay.
in reply to a question from Mr. MAMTLY, who
remarked that the system of half-p'y was not known
in the foreign armies, and one from Mr. Hum:,
urging that the half-pay system should be regulated
on a better principle,
Sic H. HARDINGE replied, that a new ar-
ratigernent was about to be made, to regulate the
duration of a certain space of service on full-pay be-
fore the officer should be entitled lc, any half-pay.
Ott the resolution that a sum not exceeding
47,686/. Is. 81 be granted to his Majesty for the
purpose of defraying the charge of the In•pensioners
of Cheiseq and Kilmainham Hospitals,

Mr. HUNIE observed, that the clerks of Chelsea
Hospital were Worse paid than the officers of and•
other Government establishment,

Mr. CALCRAFT WM of the same opinion, and
had wished the Right Hoc. Gentleman (the Chan-
cellor of the Ex7hequer) to raise the salaries of those
clerks, brit could not get him to advance Is.

Lord A LTHORP asked whether there was any
difficulty in procuring clerks for Chelsea Hospital.
If there did not exist any difficulty, he saw no reason
for raising the salaries.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that he, when applied to by the Hon. Member
(Mr. Qulcraft) on the subject, had asked the very
same question as the Noble Lord had just put.
Mr. lIUME had no wish to see the salaries of
those clerks increased, but be thought that the sala-
ries in other departments ought to be brought down
to the scale adopted at Chelsea Hospital.—The re-
solution was then carried.

The next question, that a sum not exceeding
1,241,6011. 17s. Sd. be granted to defray the charge
of the Out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital, was then
put, and agreed to.
The question being put that a sum not exceeding
9.0,9861. 13i. 3d. be granted to defray the expense of
the Royal Military Asylum,
After a few words from Sir H. HARDINGE, the
resolution was put and agreed to.
The next resolution was for a sum not exceeding
14.5,2e41. to defray the pen,ions to be paid to the
widows of officers of the land forces for 1830.

Mr. HUME inquired whether any regulations had
been adopted by Government since last session, as
to the manner of granting these pensions.
Sir H. IiARDINGE said that these pensions
were granted only to the widows of officers who had
served ten years, and who had been on full pay for
that period.

►Mr, HUME, thought it desirable that the estimate
For Navy and Ordnance pensions should he placed
upon the same footing xt.tli the army. There was
redaction of five per cent. made upon the pensions
of the soldier, while no such reduction was made in
the artillery or in the navy. The soldier therefore
considered himself plundered, though if the esti-
mates were properly stated he woul►l see that credit
was given him for the reduction of five per cent, in
his pension. All the military and naval pensions
should therefore he stated in the same way.

fir 11. HARDEN GE said the reduction of five
per tent. was made upon the pensions of the soldiers
serving in the line, by an Act passed in the reign of
Geo. I f., and it was then conceived but f►ir that such
seduction should not apply to the ordnance, as the
indi% idual serving in the ordnance was at the expense
ot his agency, and it was thought also, at that time,
that he could not he admitted to Chelsea Hospital.
The reduction was, in fact, equal, both in the line
and in the ordnance.

Mr. MONCK objected to this vote on principle.

After a few words from Sir 11. ItutorGr,, Mr.
1-luAtE, and Lord HowicK, the resolution was put
and agreed to.

The rext resolution was for a sum not exceeding
185,0361. for allowances on the Cornpasgionaie List;
for allowances as of his Majesty's Boyal Bounty;
and for pensions to officers for wounds.

Mr. HUME widied to know whether care was
taken in the granting of the last-mentioned pensions,
that the officers to whom they were granted were
wounded, as he had known individuals without
wounds in the receipt of such pensions.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said, that an officer must,
under the existing regulations, undergo the exami-
nation of five medical men, and he must prove be-
fore the Medical Board, that he had suffered a per-
manent injury, equal to the loss of a limb, before a
pension could be granted for a wound, and that exa•
mination must take place five years before the grant-
ing of any such pension.
After a few words from Mr. MOCK and Mr.
Ilumc, the resolution was agreed to.
The next resolution was for the sum of 54,20-11.,
for allowances, compensations, and emoluments in
the nature of superannuated allowances, to persons
formerly belonging to the several public departments
in Great Britain and Ireland.

Mr. MABERLY said, that there was no better
mode of checking these pensions than than by hav-
ing them specifically stated in the army as they now
were in the nary. He then proceeded to complain
of the mode in which two officers had been super-
annuated, and to require information of the nature
of their services ; but, owing to the indistinctness of
his tone, we were unable to collect the particulars.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said, the plan which the
lion. Member suggested should be adopted in fu-
ture years in the army. Before the report was
brought up to-morrow, the lion. Member should
have all the information which he required respect-
ing the two cases which he just mentioned.—The
rerolittion was then agreed to.
The next resolution was for 32,0001., for the pur-
pose of defraying the charge of Exchequer fees.

Mr. Humr, and Mr. MARERIX both objected to
the payment of these fees, which they considered
disgraceful to the country.—The resolution was then
agreed to.
On the motion that the CHAIRMAN should report
these resolutions to the Ilouse,

Mr. GORDON rose to ask the Hon. Secretary
when he meant to bring up the report, as he in-
tended upon that occasion to propose a resolution to
the following effect :—" That it is the opinion of
this House, that as long as the regulation is in
force by which officers on the half-pay of the army,
navy, ordnance, and marina, are prevented front re-
ceiving the whole of their half-pay, or any part
thereof, whilst they are enjoying the emoluments of
civil office, it ia expedient and just that the same re-
gulation should extend to officers on full-pay of the
army, navy, marine, and ordnance, who enjoy the
emoluments of civil office, or of any other naval and
military allowances."

Sir H. HARDINGE said, that it would be
most agreeable to him to have the report of these
resolutions brought up to-morrow, lie should cer-
tainly oppose this resolution ; and if the gentlemen
who had motions for to-morrow would give him
precedence for but half an hour, he thought that he
could dispose of it most effectually in that time.
The CRAISMAN then repotted the resolutions to

lie Mouse.—The report was ordered to tie received
o morrow.

BOMBAY JUDICATURE,

The Order of the day for resuming the debate on
his subject was then read.
Mr. HUME stated it to be h s opinion that the
interference of the Government in this case was un-
called for by any exigency ; and that, contrary to
lie allegations o 1 the Noble Lord opposite, there
Nits nothing in the condition of India threatening
the dissolution of our empire, if the Judges had
been allowed to act as they had wished. The ob-
ject of the Government was evidently to place the
Supreme Court in subservience to it, contrary to
the expressed intention of the Act of Parliament
which constituted it. Whoever looked at the con-
stitution of that Court, must see that it was insti-
tuted to protect the natives against oppression. He
contended that the conduct of the Noble Lord in
disgracing a Judge who had acted a conscientious
part, was quite indefensible. He complained also
that six weeks before Sir John Grant had laid his
statement before his Majesty, his Majesty's Ministers
had, upon the mere statement of Sir John Malcolm,
determined to supersede him. He blamed Sir John
Malcolm much, but he blamed Lord Ellenborough
still more, because as he was free from all local
passions and prejudices he ought to have taken an
impartial view of the transaction. He considered
that this hasty and injudicious proceeding was
fraught with the utmost danger to lmFa, and that it
h e efore ought to be marked by the signal indig-
nation of the House. lie would not enter at all
into the legal question, but would, for the reasons he
had just stated, give his most cordial support to the
motion of his Hon. Friend.

Mr. O'CONNELL contended that the Judges
of the Supreme Courts were perfectly justified' in
what they had done, because the Act of Parlia-
ment under which they were appointed, conferred
upon them the same powers as were exercised by
the Judges of the Court of King's Bench in Eng-
land. As the question appeared to be one between
the Judges and the Governor, he certainly was
disposed to support the former, because he believed
them to have the law on their side. At all events
he thought that further information was required,
and therefore he would vote for the motion.
Mr. G. BANKES observed, that all the circum
stances of the case had been laid before the Privy
Council by Sir J. Grant himself, who was certainly
most competent to state his can case, and yet the
Privy Council had decided agaiast him. Although
he imputed no blame to the Judges of the Supreme
Court, he could not but consider it most unfortunate
that they had felt themselves compelled to adopt
proceedings which had involved not only themselves,
but the Government of Bombay, in difficulties. It
was impossible that any person who had taken the
least trouble to make himself acquainted with the
facts of the case, could suppose that Sir .John Mal-
comb's conduct had originated in any petty jealousy
of the Supreme Court. In fact, he did not interfere
until the natives had called upon him to ratify the
agreements which had been entered into for their
protection. With reference to this point the Hon.
Nlember read an extract from a despatch, mitten by
the Marquis of Hastings to the Court of Directors,
in 1818, in which he introduced the following re-
:—" It is a peculiar ci,cumstanee attending all
these annexations (at the conclusion of the Mahratta
war), that the only re it the natives have is, that our
judicial. system w ill be introduced amongst them,
and they always stipulate that it shall not." What-
ever Sir John Malcolm had done in the case had
proceeded from the best intentions, and it was a
matter of regret that the Judges had not entertained
an opinion to that effect. The Hon. Gent. then
proceeded to contend, that the Supreme Court had
no right to issue a writ of Habeas Corpus to the
extent which Sir John Grant had thought fit to
exert his authority. In point of fact, the decision of
the Privy Council had set the question, in his mind,
completely at rest ; and he was completely at a less
to know what good would result from a decision of
that House with respect to a question already pro-
nounced upon by the tribunal most proper to try
it. For his own part, he conceived it would be an
act of unfairness towards Sir John Grant to press
this motion further. He said this, because Sir John
Grant, though not dismissed, was recalled, for the
purpose of giving him an opportunity of defending
the course which he had thought proper to take. It
was proper, therefor e, that nothing should be done
which might be construed into a previous adjudica-
tion of the question.
Mr. W. WleArN viewed this as a great question
of principle, and not at all as a struggle between the
two parties who appeared foremost in the business.
lie believed that each of them, Sir John Grant
and the Governor, acted from purely conscientious
motives,—the one believing that, as a Judge, he
possessed certain powers, which the other, guided
by a sense of what appeared to him to be his duty,
totallr denied. He could not, like the Hon. Gen•
tleman, look upon the letter of the Noble Lord as a
private letter.—(Hear, hear.) It was a letter from
public officer to a public servant--(Fleur, hear)—
stating the feelings and principles by which a public
Board was swayed, and could not, therefore, be
viewed as a private communication. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman then proceeded to argue, with
reference to the charter, that it contained words of
so extended and comprehensive a meaning as might
have misled Sir John Grant, or any other Judge,
with respect to the exact meaning of the Legisla-
ture. The Right lion. Gentleman concluded by
saying, that if the question was pressed to a division,
he should vote in favour of the motion.
Mr. FERGUSSON, after an attentive consi-
deration of the subject, was of opinion that the
Court of Bombay had been most decidedly in the
wrong,—(llear.) He said this rafter 17 years' pro-
fessional service in India, where he had had pro-
bably more experience than any other professional
person. Ile never could have supposed that a
Judge in India would have held the doctrine main-
tained by Sir J. Grant. It was never intended, by
the establishment of Supreme Courts in India, to
give them jurisdiction over any other natives than
such as chose to reside within the limite of the
Courts : had it been otherwise, we should not
have kept our Indian empire to this time.—
The natives had laws of their ova, to which
they were attached, and would never have sub-
mitted to such a system as ours. For 50 years
such a jurisdiction had never been pretended
to by a Judge of any of the King's Courts,
for the cases quoted were not in point. It was
worthy the consideration of his Majesty's Ministers,
however, whether a declaratory act might not be
passed to obviate similar cases, for the Privy Council
had confined its scope to the cases before it. Though
of opinion that the Bombay Court was wrong, and
that Sir Charles Grey, the Chief Justice at Calcutta,
who had justified the opinion of the Bombay Judges,
was equally wrong, he (Mr. Fergusson) still thought
that both Sir John Malcolm and Sir John Grant
acted conscientiously. With respect to the notion
which appeared to be entertained, that if the Su-
preme Court were not allowed to come in, the
natives could have no justice, it should be remem-
bered that the Legislature had thought differently,
since it gave authority to the local government to
make regulations and to administer law through the
Company's Courts ; and beyond the bounds of the
Supreme Court, the Adawlut Court was supreme.
Mr. R. GRANT, in explanation observed, that
the decision of the Privy Council did not render a
declaratory act less necessary : its opinion had been
extrajudicial and ex-parte.
Mr. PEEL said, with respect to the legal ques-
don, he considered that that had been decided by a
tribunal more competent than the House, which had
decided t hat in the issue of the writs the Judges
had taken an erroneous view of the law. It was
necessary for the sake of his argument, to place the
independence of the Judges in India on lower
grounds than that of the Judges of England.—
(Hear, hear.)—The Judges in India were entitled
to Occupy, within their limited jurisdiction, the same
En
independentglaiti(i._rank which belonged to the Judges of
clear.)—But this was not a question of
independence; it was a question of the assumption

of an authority tvhieh the local government hail
considered not only unfounded but dangerous,
and which authority had been pronounced unjus-
tified by the Privy Council.—(llear, hear.)—
He could not cxpest that gentlemen in that !louse
should be able to argue properly as to the feelings
of the natives of India with regard to the jargon of
our laws. They considered it deroga,ory to them-
selves to attend at a distance from their homes, at a
Court administering justice in a language which
they did not understand, and according to forms
a Ilia we ourselves did not comprehend, and which
they thought contrary to their customs and religion.
Sir J. Malcolm found that the claim of this juris-
diction by the Judges of the Supreme Court ex-
cited great alarm among those whom it was his
wish and his interest to conciliate, and to whom he
had bound himself by express stipulation that they
should riot be called upon to attend in the 13ritish
Courts. He drought that Sir John Malcolm had
acted rightly throughout, and therefore he was bound
to support him to the utmost of his power. He
thought that Sir J. Malcolm had acted right, even
in addressing that letter, which some conaidered so
objectionable, to the Judges of the Supreme Courts.
He tliought that Sir J. Malcolm could not have
adopted any other course, without producing a colli-
between the executive and judicial power, which it
w•ts on many accounts desirable to avoid. His letter
was a private letter, intended to prevent the public
notification of that collision. At the same time
that he said this, it was only right to say that, from
the high character of Sir Charles Chambers and Sir
John Grant, he believed that they both acted from
motives as pure as Sir John Malcolm; that they
were convinced that their construction of the law
was right ; and that they were compelled to
act as they had acted by the ideas which they
entertained of the proper dignity of the judicial
character. With 'respect to Lord Ellenborough's
letter, he must say that very erroneous impressions
were entertained as to its purport and intention.—
(Cries of" hear," and some laughter.)—He claimed
no privilege for that letter, because it was a private
letter; but he did think that they ought not to scru-
tinize the language in which his Noble Friend's
opinions were thus privately expressed, as severely
as they would the language of a public despatch.
As for the doctrines which it contained, he denied
that there was any thing in them from which it
could be inferred that his Noble Friend intended to
interfere with the independence of the fudges, or
to make the Supreme Court subservient to the Go-
vernment. He would read the two strongest pas-
sages of it :—" Mr. William Seymour will probably
be knighted before he sails, and as it will nut be
right that the Chief Justice alone should not be
knighted, we must consider in what manner that
can be best effected. I believe it may be done by
patent, but my present idea is to empower you, as •
Governor, to confer the honour of knighthood on
Mr. Dewar. This will evidently place the Gover-
nor above the Court. It will mark you out as the
King's representative. You may make the cere-
mony as imposing as you please." From this it
had been inferred that it was the intention of his
Noble Friend to degrade the judicial situation in
India, by making the natives look up to the Court
as the mere dependent of the Governor ; but was
such an inference warranted by his Noble Friend's
expression ? If the object of the present motion
were to pass a censure on his Noble Friend, it be-
came necessary fur the House to consider whether
such censure was justifiable ; and nothing but that
object would lead him to notice the comments made
by Sir Charles Chambers on the letter of Sir John
Malcolm. He wished to speak with every respect
of Sir C. Chambers, not only because he was pos-
sessed of many eminent virtues, but also because he
was dead : still respect for die dead must not be
permitted to prevent him from doing justice to the
living. The construction of his Noble Friend's letter
depended in a great measure on the comments which
Sir C. Chambers bad made in one of his charges on
Sir John Malcolm's note. He first declared the
whole of it to be written in a most dictatorial strain
arid then proceeded to say, " If a hundred causes
came before the Court under the same circumstances,
I should feel no compunction in deciding them all in
the same way; but a heavy responsibility rests upon
those who, under the pretence of state policy, are
only anxious to destroy the King's Government, and
to put down a tribunal which is the only guard
which the natives of India have against the abuses
which power, without responsibility, is always sure
to engender." In that passage a distinction was
drawn between the Government of the King and
the Government of the East India Company : the
Judges being described as the representatives of the
King, and the executive Government as the repre-
sentative of the East India Company ; and, to
crown all, the natives of India were told that tine
latter power was instigated by a strong desire to de.
stony the former. When his Noble Friend said,
" this will evidently place the Governor above the
Court," he only meant to say, " You, Sir J. Mal-
colm, are to exercise your authority as the repre-
sentative of the King, by bestowing knighthood on
Mr. Dewar,—a privilege which can only be exer-
cised by the King or his representative. By giving
you this power, I show tine natives of India that
yen, and not the Judges, are the representative of
his Majesty." Then canoe that very celebrated pas-
ssge—(A laugh)—in which his Noble Friend said
that no more mischief could happen, as Sir J. Grant
would be like a wild elephant led away between two
tame ones. He did not mean to vindicate those ex-
pressions; he repeated that he claimed no privilege
for this letter as a private letter, but he did claim
some indulgence for the terms in which it was writ-
ten. His Noble Friend had not published this letter
himself, nor did he ever intend that it should be pub-
lished. If his Noble Friend had published it, and
spoken deliberately thus unadvisedly of the Judges
he would have been guilty of a great public offence,
—(Cries of '' hear ")—but this he had not done,
and the whole gist of this paragraph was, that Sir
J. Grant would be compelled to revise his opinion,
or that if he did not, it would be rendered harmless
by his being joined with other Judges. Upon these
grounds he should give a decided negative to the
motion, as he conceived it intended to apply a cen-
sure to his Noble Friend.

Mr. STEWART replied.
The House then divided, when there appeared—.
For the motion, 15 I Against it, 106 I Majority, 91.

EAST RETFORD.

On our return to the gallery we found
Mr. N. CALVERT moving that the report of
the East Retford Bill be brought up.
Mr. STEWART objected to its being brought
up at that late hour. lie had an amendment to
move, and he was anxious to have a few Members
present to discuss it.
After a few words from Mr. Peel, Mr. N. Calvert,
Sir J. Sebright, and Mr. Hume, the report was
brought up, and agreed to.
Mr. STEWART then moved his amendment,
which was to the effect—that every Member who
should hereafter be returned for East Retford and
Bassetlaw should, on corning to the table to be sworn,
make a declaration that he had not come to his seat
by bribery, or by the influence of any Peer, or by
any other unfair means.
After a few words from Mr. Peel, Mr. N. Calvert,
rind Mr. Warburton, against the amendment, and
from Mr. Hume and Nlr. Stewart, in support of it,
the question was put, and the amendment negatived.
The Bill was then ordered to be read a third
time on that day week.
REMOVAL OF THE HAYMARKET.
Lord LOWTHER moved for, and obtained,
leave to bring in, and then brought in his 73111, to
remove the market, at present held in the Hay-
market, to Cumberland-market and York-square, in
the parish of St. Pancras.
The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time on Monday, arid to he printed.