The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-19 00:00:00

CHURCH-RATES.

Mr. BARNARD presented a petition from the town
of Deptford in favour of the Ministerial plan for the abo-
lition of Chtireli.rates,
Mr. LAMBTON pregenfigd a petition to the same
effect from the county of Durham
USURY LAWS.

Dr. BOWRING gave notice, that on Tuesday, the 4th
of July, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal
the Usury Laws.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY presented a petition from a
parish in Staffordshire, in favour of the Government mea-
sure for the abolition of Church-rates.
Mr. PEASE gave notice, that on the motion for the
third reading of the County Bridges Bill, lie would move
that it be read a third time that day six months.
Lord W. BENTINCK presented a petition from the
Synod of the Relief Persuasion in Scotland, representing
sixty thousand persons, in favour of the plan for the aboli-
tion of Church-rates then before the House. They qua-
lified their 'approbation of the measure by saying, that a
forced provision for any Church was against the Scriptures.
Sir ANDREW L. HAY presented two petitions, one
from Newton Stewart, and the other from Macduff, in
favour of the Borough Barony Bill.
LAW OF LANDLORD AND TENANT.

Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition from the Tower-
Hamlets, complaining of the state of the law with respect
to landlord and tenant. He would take that opportunity
of stating, that he did not believe the public were generally
aware of the great difficulty that private individuals ex-
perienced in their endeavours to carry a measure through
that House. He had some time ago introduced a Bill
for the amendment of the law of landlord and tenant.
Every exertion on his part had been used, in order to faci-
litate the proceeding of that measure, but those exertions
bad proved altogether unavailing, and he believed would
remain so, as long as the business of the House was con-
ducted in the manner in which it at present was.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS COMMITTEE.

Mr. C. BULLER said be bad a petition to present of a
rather peculiar nature. When first the petition was put
into his hands, it appeared to him to involve serious
charges against the Members of a Committee of that
House ; but, upon speaking to the Chairman, he thought
that the matter might be very easily explained as
regarded the Committee, Nevertheless he considered
it necessary to call the attention of the House to the
petition, as great injustice had been done to an individual
by the proceedings adopted by the Committee. The
Committee to which he alluded was that upon Turnpike
Trusts, of which the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Mac-
kinnon) was Chairman. Before that Committee, a surveyor,
of the name of Wyngrove, appeared, who had adopted
a plan of road making, which was considered as a
rival to that adopted by Sir William Macadam.
That gentleman had given in before the Committee certain
testimonials on the understanding that they were to be
printed with the evidence. When the report was printed
he found the documents were altogether omitted, and that
the answers he had given were so altered as that the pub-
lic should not be struck with the omission of the testimonials.
He (Mr. Buller) felt convinced that the Committee had
not intended to commit any hardship on the witness ; but
he did not know whether the House would give him the
remedy he sought. He had at first intended to move that
the petition, with the documents, should be given in a sup-
plement to the Votes ; but he was afraid, from the rule
the Speaker had laid down the other night, that that would
not he regular, and as he did not intend to found any
motion upon it, he would leave the matter in the hands of
the House.
Jwlr. MACKINNON, as Chairman of the Committee,
was glad that an opportunity was afforded him for offering
an explanation, and thanked the Honourable Member
for Liskeard (Mr. Charles Buller) for the courteous
manner in which he had brought forward the petition.
There were many other Hon. Members who had prepared
themselves for a seat in that House by their speeches at the
bar ; but the Hon. Member opposite might be said to have
prepared himself for the bar by his speeches in that House
—(Hear, and a laugh) a sample of which the Hon. Member
had just favoured them with, and he (Mr. Mackinnon)
must say the Hon. Memlar had introduced the subject in
a very loyaglike manner. Mr. Wyngrove was the surveyor
of roads between Bath and Bristol, and the Committee
had given him leave to put in certain papers which lie
considered additional evidence, and those papers were
printed and distributed with the Evidence. When he
(Mr. Mackinnon) came to draw up his report, and saw
the irrelevant tendency of the papers which had been so put
in, he thought it his duty, as Chairman of the Committee,
to strike out the irrelevant part of the evidence, which he
did with the sanction of the Committee, and only to
put into the Report that part of the evidence
which appeared to bear on the subject. There
were a great many testimonials which the witness had ob-

tained as to his talent, and so forth, which he thought
had nothing to do with the inquiry before the Committee ;
and he was sure that no Honourable Member in

hat House would say that all papers that came be

fore the Committee ought to be inserted in the report.
The Hon. Member then read another portion of the ex-
cluded evidence, which purported to be a testimonial of the
witness's qualifications from the Magistrates of the Isle of
Wight. Now, that he submitted was nothing more than
a mere puff upon the witness, and if Committees had not
the power to exclude what was idle, absurd, and irrele-
vant, there would be no end to their labours. If he had
a gain the honour to be placed in a similar situation, he
should act in precisely a similar manner.—(Hear.)
Mr. BULLER explained.

. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET was glad the Hon.
Member behind him (Mr. Mackinnon) had set so excellent
an example to the Chairmen of other Committees, by ex-
cluding the documents alluded to.

After a few words from Mr. ORMSBY GORE, the
petition was laid on the table.
CONFERENCE WITH THE LORDS.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL a Conference
was agreed to with the Lords on the subject of the Canada
Resolutions, and the Managers appointed on the part of
the Commons immediately afterwards left the House.
Lord J. RUSSELL, and the other Managers, appeared
at the bar, and stated that they had had the Conference,
which was managed on the part of the Lords by the Duke
of Richmond, who reported that the Lords had agreed to
the Canada Resolutions without any amendment. The
Noble Lord then said, in consequence of that agreement, he
would move that a Bill be brought into the House founded
upon and in pursuance of these Resolutions.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Mr. ROEBUCK did not rise to object to the motion
made by the Noble Lord, but he wag most anxious to ask a
question of his Majesty's Government.- It was well known
to all, that in the present state of the public business nothing
at all was done. He wanted to have some arrangement
made, so that the public business might be gone on
with—in fact that something might be done for the
country. The burden was generally thrown on the Radical
section of that House, which was stated to bring forward
motions, and so detain the House from other business ; he
for one denied the charge, and thought that the evil
lay at the door of the Government themselves. He
(Mr. Roebuck) would propose to give the Government
thorough and complete control of the House, so that they
might not have any excuse for postponing the Bills they
themselves brought in. He would propose to the Noble

ures—fbr instance, the Irishy Tithe Bill, the Irish
Lord (Lord J. Russell) an of the three greet 1,70
s :
uld
law Bill, or the Church rates Bill—that one n
$ the
be named. Then was the Noble Lord prepared that
~,„
Government would go on de die in diem with the P.;
sohy
invahmicehdthu:;il4l.oitufwd7r
be seen whether they
themselves introduced, or whether they
iviritoy
at
them. Hear, hear.) If the Noble Lord would g
were
ent saelineGxdi Government' es r
tnToni
carryt. wtluhti:ll3bil the'
his
such an assurance, he for one would promise
thr
the
duce a single motion until all the Bills wereigvoctiree
lord JOHN RUSSELL said the charges 01 To
Hun, Member for Bath were rather extraordinary.
.ft,
Hon. Member had made a proposition, on his own.l3Zo
that he would not bring on any motion, if he (Lord J• 11,/,
would consent to proceed with certain measures before
n "
ot
the Hon. Gentleman could hardly undertake
.o
House. lie ( Lord J. R.) wished nothing better. P. 1.,
C
part of the House that they would give DP their ITit
If the House did consent to take that course, it w°t-ndivi'
very different froth that which had been pursued hYbliemoo
dual Members up to the present time. The Hon. Gen'itinsl
not tooug..
seemed to think that he (Lord J. R.) had made aceut,eo
against certain radical Members of the House to
business goieg on ; but he must say that he had an! sea
any imputati,m of the sort. The only imputation he
the
made, he made generally, upon motions coming
fr
opposite side of the House, and wh h
very
i°
traygio,
pains last week to proceed with the Irish Poor La Kerr')
and had found great difficulty in doing so.—(11"r 11,0
About a week ago he proposed to take the Crigunagoece
Bill on Friday the 19th inst., beinc, anxious the 4.0 e;
would fix a time to consider a Bill of so great iropOrt. Licb
but he found among the notices for to-morrow one .ev: to
had been given by an Hon. Member opposite, rells.i:ibops
the duty on fire insurances.—(Hear, hear.) "10013
that the course which had hitherto been insisted on ore
be discontinued, and that for the future Bills the if
regularly before the House would be allowed to 1
we
ceeded with.—( Hear, hear.) „ al
Mr. AGLIONBY said it seemed to be admitten of
sides, that the present mode of transacting' the hnsined let
the House was very unsatisfactory. He beggerioslu
ask the Noble Lord whether the Government „f the
sanction any plan for arranging the business "
House ? The Noble Lord might appoint a Co"to°,, of
by which something might be done in the fitiaj°ee'
modelling and arranging the business of the 're,si.o
because nothing could be so unsatisfactory and oPP-c the
to Members as the mode in which the business °irbe
House was at present transacted. He begged to °in bit
Noble Lord whether he would take the matter in
consideration, if an arrangement were made for the oPr
ment of a Committee. Loaf°
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could have no ohie?-iilool
the consideration of such a proposition, because 1(010
Members felt the inconvenience of the present OW
Majesty's Ministers must feel it still more, efer
Mr. HUME did not think the Noble Lcrd hauwhan
ed the question of the Hon. Member for Bath. $Olll
wished to know was if the Hon. Members, rfh°,lloe
supported the Government on his (Mr. Hume's) siuliobl°
House, would lay aside their motions, would the 0
.fIY
Lord go .on steadily with the business of the count*" ~„tllO
Noble Lord had, as he understood him, intimated t'
could not acceede to the proposition.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had merely stated, teisel
could not advance the Bills which had been elregul
for particular days.
After a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK,
Mr. WARBURTON observed, that if such ans-$llllO
ment were made, a reciprocal duty would devolve °obi/
Government, because, if they afforded every facilitY
Majesty's Ministers to carry their measures, they n'slibusi'
entitled to give their attendance and support when thiet,6lo
ness of individual Members was brought forwilrd.--osf the
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Under Scott
Colonies, whether his Majesty's Government -had P:01$1
assent to a Bill which had passed the House of A'en'i did
of Upper Canada, for preventing the dissolution'
House of Assembly in case of the demise of the gl°,:le
Sir GEORGE GREY said the acts of the Sesst°'
not yet been received by his Majesty's Government' A 010
The dropped Orders of yesterday were then alien
for the purpose of being placed on the books.
INTERNAL COMMUNICATION. f'llll
Mr. GILLON then rose to call the attention ° th°,
House to the legislative policy adopted in regard t°oo
internal communication, and especially to the uslii
rates of taxation on the different modes of travelling.
considered the question as one of much importance, eb
to
cially as the power of steam was now coming so Mu° 00
use. Steam as a motive power, whether on rails jeer)
rivers, or on the sea, was totally untaxed. (Heir',-/101
What was the case as regarded other modes of ee„,,110/
passengers to different parts of the country? s"-af,4;
the case with respect to stage coaches ? While the ;4401
coach was altogether untaxed, the stage-coach, 00" •tre
•a the high roads, was subjected to the payment of 1/ior
nual licence-duty of 51. The conductor of the read 0
coach paid no duty ; the driver of the stage-coach b,,,-011
pay annually a duty of 11. ss. Again, the mileage
passengers by the stage-coach was one farthing 13°00
on the number of passengers the coach is licensed t° 041'
while the railway-coaches only paid a duty of 007
co
of a penny for each passenger actually carried, en
additional advantage offered them of the power t°
pound, while the stage-coaches were not allowed ,t°4006
pound. The Dalkeith Railway Company, for Jnds" rate
compounded last year for 2001., while, had the roP, oe'
been levied of one-eighth on each passenger, the CIL.IOI/
ceived would have been 800/.—( Hear, hear, hearq,'neo
all horses drawing burdens, the duty was 10s. 6d. 80,0'0'
and this was made applicable to horses drawing canal-01°
On each post-chaise kept, though the party can 0011,0
one at a time, the duty was 11.55. In the year enclir: 00
January, 1835, the duty on poSt.horses was 228,791-
stage.coaches, 487,8241.—being a total of 716,5' 43
1836, the duty on post-horses was 041,165/. ; (3?
coaches, .198,497/.—bein7 a total of 739,60' or!
enormous tax on animal power, from which railroads alle
exempt, was most injurious to a large class of persoolyel
most inconvenient to the public, and had great influene•iftli°,
ducing wild speculations in railways. The Chancellor 00'00
Exchequer could not do a more popular act, or one that -tlo°
be more beneficial to the poorer classes of societl' the
to remove the duty which at present existed uPteso,
means of internal communication. The Hon. Geotr: iota
concluded by moving that a Select Committee be sPeleor
to consider, whether the present amount of taxatilea.ll
lected on internal communication might not be lev-
a more equitable mode.
Mr. HORSMAN seconded the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEarir'tbrieleral
rise for the purpose of throwing any obstacle in 'e
of the motion. Being prepared to acquiesce in t-bbum
pointment of a Committee, it would ill become saki
argue any of the questions that were about to be
mitted to it. The proper time for discussion 501
be when the evidence taken before that Committeeerri
laid before the House ; at the same time he should he "otioo
if it went abroad that the object of the present °lope
was for the purpose of checking any mode of investiqj sof
tel. The great object of finance should be, to avelo soAl
mproper encouragement or improper discourgancleitrl he"
legitimate mode for investing capital. His Hon.
said that these parties would have applied to ther-eca;,
sooner, but when they did so they had not been enenut. eon:
when the fact was, that the Honourable Genbereal
own speech was evidence to the fact.—(Hear' reseed
Upon no subject had that House been mote l;.,rietiw
than on one of the subjects noticed by his Bon', 001
namely, the great injustice of collecting the Fos" bear.)
Duties under the system of farming.—(geaen'ncefie,.:
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had at "- a
ceeded to the prayers of the petitioners, en oat;
had admitted that the system was a barbarous °°e;
bs
gave rise to undefined oppression. The
given them the very remedy they had applied .;00
bad
yet the Honourable Member on the present ocea%o
stated that their petition had not been attended `O3l die
that they were subjected to more oppression
system,
officers of Excise than under the farming tY5lOlll,°
(Hear, hear.) These parties had been cursed Of rear"
their prayer acceded to, and if they now wished for a.,11 for
to the old system, they were quite at liberty to einif as
it. Instead of their making isolated statemethe.io
ell-grounded complaint against an Officer of shs
_wof
forwarded to the Treasury, he (the Chancellor Aiyolls
quer) could assure the Hon. Member that that is
would be at once removed. C°°'
The motion was then agreed to, and the follow 1,,00,00,
mittee appointed :—Mr. Gillen, Mr• Poulett ""%, Or:
Sir Henry Parnell, Mr. Dugdale, HarrYg/reeiryntiellie;:
Foster, Mr. Loch, Sir George Sinclair, Mr. -vvrelle ark
son, Mr. Parker, Mr. Handley Sir Thom/Isla" In°-
Mr. Mackinnon, Mr. William Miles, sad
Philips.

LAW OF COPYRIGHT. o°ll9°
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD then addressed the OP'
.o the following effect :—ln venturing invitetlaivs affilfts :I°of
ptiroonpeorftythoefHmoeunscortolettlrersstaatde ofe the
. and labour, I feenl-thoit-t the re.° Ot
e
•.1 to pry I
their talent #lOO
their case as c ' or!cisely as its nature will permit• iders-,i
believe that their claims to some share in the coneA. 0 ti.,
of
appeal
the Legislature will not be denied, I am aware:usliarg;
to feelings far different from those which 11,,r"t OIL'
excited by the political conflicts of this place; t"- • b ""1
aitr.tiisstrns9;nauty _
who .
A scble ot
tcrests of their case is not of that stirring ki°44 n the Are
longs to the present, but that it reflects back ,°- forto!.l.
the passions which are now silent, and stretch --10 P
f
into the visionary future ; and that the circuel'tlnees illo7oa
impede their efforts are but appreciated in the Glij