The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-05 00:00:00

objecting to the proposition. Those reasons were not
at all satisfactory to the House, and he was defeated by
a considerable majority. The clause of Lord Chandos
remained, and it was thought that could induce the
Lords to accept the Bill. He agreed, therefore, that
to Point of fairness and justice, if he was asked whether
the 101. householder, without the limits of the borough,
had a right to vote as much as the householder resident
within the limits of the borough, he must say decidedly
and at once that be thought he was.—(Hear, hear.)
tie thought it was unfortunate that the 50/. tenants-
at-will were ever introduced into the Reform Bill.—
(Hear, hear.) He certainly did not wish to deprive
t!'em—he did not wish to deprive any one who enjoyed
butts under the Reform Bill, of those rights ;
he thought it led very naturally to the
motion which the Hon. Baronet had just made. Now,
a
to the objections to be made to that motion—in the
he
Place, in regard to the motion as made that night,
4e thought the
question, as the Hon. Baronet himself
had admitted, was of such great importance, that it was
:ne of an admission of so large and so extensive a
tvr elass of voters, that it could not be expected either
Government or that House should entertain such a
Proposition at this time of the Session.—(lronical cries
'3.1.." Hear, hear.") He thought likewise, even putting
"'de that objection, which was a sufficient one, against
the •
immediate adoption of a great change, that there
were very serious and. substantial objections to the pro-
Position itself, at whatever time brought forward.—
(19ries of " Oh " from the Radicals.) He thought the
I 4,Q1). Baronet himself, in the course of his speech, bad
euocled to some of those objections—he had stated what
tle considered was the inequality which now occurred
ljeitle respect to voters in Boroughs returning Members
e't Parliament. It would be necessary to take some
t stinction, and to revive the distinction made in the
Reform Bill, by which it was intended to provide that
:Person holding property in a borough, by which pro-
perty he was enabled to vote in that borough,
tepee
thl'util not by the same property be entitled to vote in
we county. That distinction, whether wise or unwise,
taS the distinction made in the Reform Bill, and it
4°llld be necessary, before the present motion could be
j''reed to, to enter into the whole question of that dis-
octioo. Another important question was, as to what
rwiould be the practical effect of such a change on elec-
'aat
°os for counties. The inclination of his opinion was
the electoral body would be rather improved than
il'etheizise by such an addition.—( Loud cries of " Hear,
:ar• ) At the same time he must say he bad not made
efficient inquiry—that he was not sufficiently informed
e 5 to the effect which such a change would have, to be
pbled to pronounce a decisive opinion upon it.
Tigere was another objection that might be taken to
wrets(ms who had well considered the Reform Bill, which
4 48 this—they might look upon this change not merely
the Principles
extension of the right of voting, in conformity with
e! Principles of the Reform Bill, but as an extension
'''h& beyond the Reform Bill, and giving a
fir right of voting not conferred by that Act.—(Hear.)
eje Was only stating these as objections which it was
fete
would be entertained, and which he thought
-ere
,i,, objections of a sufficiently serious character to in-
L'ee any Government not only to say they declined to
bee to the proposition of the Hon. Baronet that night,
t,fai_t that they would deny giving him any reason to sup-
-4.." that if brought forward on another day and at
,?either time, it would meet with their concurrence._
Other
hear, and No, no.) The Hon. Member had
wee e ,
hituett for some explanation, not merely with regard to
eitt°4l proposition but with regard to those of a similar
ure. In accordance with that wish, and the wish of
pan
oi Y who had asked his opinion with regard to certain
4s, he would first state generally there were three
tPO4t,teies• There were a considerable number who, adhering
." letter ofßeform Act, yetwished to restrict the
f,a_.
o,4lehlse given by that Act—who afterwards vexati-
lee 3' °PPosed the voters maintaining their franchise, and
•
,oforward to restrict it by means of intimidation and
by r re
ruPtion•—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches, met
Th-e,PPosition cheers.) With those he entirely differed.
~blere was another class, one of whom was the Honour-
tla, Member for Dublin, who said the Reform Act
tiv° been a total failure, and that it was necessary to
vie! the franchise far more extensively--(Cheers)—pro-
iCMg for the shorter duration of Parliament, depriving
voe Crown of the prerogative of dissolution, and pro-
fogine a secret mode of voting. This was a proposal
,tthe entire abandonment of the Reform Act as it at
regentte existed, and he would only say that he could not
e4:ite4With that proposal. There was a third system,
and to Consisted of taking the Reform Act as the basis
time e‘lolltdi. og upon it such improvements as might from
Which h 'llle be required. That was the general opinion
e Refe (Lord J. Russell) entertained with respect to
cons] d °rm Act.—(Hear, hear.) It was necessary to
The ":" What amendments might be properly proposed.
Year Attorney-General
had introduced a Bill several
Wit;/1 ago, and it was now before the House again.
tie„, . respect to that measure, relating to the registra-
trae i..
I n „, -Ppeared to him that the vexations incident to the
the n.e.lse were more extensive than be had supposed
v h",. to be.—( Hear, hear.) When there were se-
eee„-1-five barristers going to different parts of the
pp:4lT to decide on difficult qustions, and there were
-, ?aria ready to go to any expense to question the
stt of voters, it became a hardship and inconvenience
lie 'eh imperatively called for amendment.—( Hear,
Alan')
The Government proposed two years ago, a
The Government
the number of Revising Barristers,
end making mg
fie; a , instead of a fluctuating court of seventy-
re, t Permanent court of ten or twelve. That Bill was
Otherc ed bY the House of Lords.—(Hear, hear.) Auns-
0. kit
b ----. was proposed last year, to diminish vexatious
hjections, but even that Bill was acceptednotHeo by
L rd John
Ittouse of Lords.—(Hear, hear.)
be was not prepared exactly to say what should
s'e the details of the remedy, but he was prepared to
l't)' that the whole system of registration ought to be
I,ltogether revised.—(Cheers.) It would be necessary
have a permanent court of a smaller number of Re-
,ling Barristers, and to provide that the voter should
'''t be called upon so perpetually to defend his right,
lied
~ have the expense and vexation of a contest in
'e courts of the Revising Barristers. There was another
illeestion which related to the mode in which the voter
led the right to place his name on the list of voters.
Zthe Reform Bill it was provided that the voter
t°,(l not only have the property necessary to confer
e franchise, but pay sufficient rates and taxes to show
that he was the bone fide holder. Experience had con-
ei'eed him that this was going further than was neces-
beY to insure the respectability of the voter.--( Hear,
jar.) The general principle was a right one, which
tight to be adhered to ; but if it could be ascertained
tight
the person really paid the rates, those restrictions
wght not to be put on the voter, which deprived many
h° Were entitled of their right to vote.—( Hear, hear.)
Billae with this view that he last year introduced the
Lb Which was carried through the House, by which
I: time of paying rates was changed. If there had
heta payment of rates for a certain number of
" n"ths, he thought the payment of the assessed
ol,es ought not to be insisted on.—(Cheers.) Instead
the rig ht of voting being granted to persons who were
e t
e°• entitled, there were hundreds entitled who did not
rithe 3°Y franchise, owing to the manner in which these
'uses were framed. He had already stated the ge-
t'eral principle on which he was disposed to go. That
itlirineiele would be to adopt an amendment, any correc-
" in conformity with the general principles of the
teere urin Act—an analogy to the general provisions of
."e Reform Act, but not altogether any new scheme of
.ePresentation. It was unnecessary for hint to state his
eheral views on the subject, as he had done so on se,
veral former occasions. All he wished to state now
I)°,as that not agreeing with the Hon. Gentleman in
QlB Present motion, not giving any promise that the
i overnment would in future concur in it, yet he thought
't
f4irie entitled to the consideration of the House. It
je'e"a,s a question fairly brought forward, and would not be
roducing any very dangerous innovation, but at the
'artie time it was not one to which he on the part of the
Government could give any concurrence.
Mr. WARBURTON said it might be fairly col-
'eeted that a large majority of the people of England
and of the Members sitting on the Liberal side of the
United
were not satisfied with the representation of the
kieited Kingdom as it now stood.—(Hear, hear.) The
1 cloestion then was, whether the Members sitting on the
Liberal side of the House—(Tory laughter)—would be
satisfied, unless the Government were prepared to take
1 earl amendment of the Reform Act in hand.—( Hear,
"ear.) If the Government were prepared to propose
the
to reicedy the evils of the present system,
Members sitting on the Liberal side of the House
I.old be prepared to leave those amendments in the
tiandS of th.e Government. The Liberal Members did
^ot wish to press on the Government in the present
stage of the Session, to produce all the amendments
Which were necessary, if they would only receive sugges-
gestions from the Members of the Liberal party,
***--
(Tory laughter)—in the same manner as previous to
theh, introduction of the Reform Bill. What he com-
plained of was the many unconnected changes that were
brought before the House. There was the measure of
‘4O Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, to,
Inelee an irr partial tribunal to settle all questions which
came before Election Committees. That was a legiti-
olate object, but it was a detached measure, and would
40t cure the difficulties which arose out of election pe-
titions. The way to reduce the expense would be to
'flake the registry final, and thus take a great number
°I cases out of the record. The Government were bound
to do that which the Liberal party called upon it to do,
and that was to give notice of their intention to prepare
4 Bill for the amendment of the Reform Act—(Cheers)
and that Bill should embrace the various subjects to
which he had adverted, and many others to which he had
tot adverted.—(Hear, and laughter.) If they did that,
instead of the Liberal party
',nee d as they now were—(Tory being
depressedrciiee)—te spirits
and dieui'toi
thois Reform party would be raised,s and h
instead es
of
being" almost afraid to meet a general election
(Continued cheers from the 'Tories)—and anticipating
discomfiture, such an announcement would make them
more ready than Hon. Gentlemen opposite to meet a
general election.—(Cheers.) But if the constituency
remained in its present state, lie anticipated discomfiture
for the Liberal party at the next election, and he be-
~
1 "eved that at every future general election their sitna-

tion would be worse and worse.—(Loud cheers from
the Tories.) He liked to state what his real opinions
were. He wished to tell Hon. Gentlemen opposite
that the Liberal party felt satisfied that they were the
most numerous, the most powerful, the most wealthy—
(Laughter from the Tories)—and the most influential
party, and would not submit permanently to be left in
that position in which they were now placed, and
therefore if the Government could not place the Libe-
ral party in the position in which they had a right to
be placed, the Liberal party, independently of the Go-
vernment, must act for themselves.--(Loud cheers.)
The division upon the Ballot would show what the
numbers of the party were. If the smallest encourage-
ment were given by the Government, by taking the
amendment of the Reform Bill into their own hands,
there would be forbearance on the part of the Reform
party ; in fact, the Liberal party would gladly leave the
matter in the hands of the Government. But if the
Ministry would not take this course—if measures like
those proposed by the Hon. Baronet were not fairly
considered by the Government—(No, no, from some of
the Liberal Members, and laughter from the Opposition)
—the Noble Lord had not, in his (Mr. Warburton's)
opinion, dealt quite fairly with the subject ; he under-
stood the Noble Lord, however, to say that his own
impression: was in favour of the proposition, though he
could not give it the support of the Government, He
(Mr. Warburton) thought this was a fit opportunity
for Members of Liberal opinions to give vent to their
sentiments.—(Hear, and laughter.) It was for those
members to decide what course they would take, either to
vote apinst the Government, or to leave the subject in
the hands of the Government. For his own part, he
repeated his hope that the Government would make
some declaration of their intentions as to the amend-
ment of the Reform Act.

Sir R. PEEL said he did not think the Noble Lord

had been so equivocal as the Hon. Member for Brid-
port seemed to consider.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord had distinctly defined to what extent he would
admit of alteration in the Reform Bill. The Noble
Lord had said that as to the registration of voters the
present system was deficient—that he thought there
should be some relaxation of the rate-paying clauses—
that for the poor-rate some additional time should be
allowed—and that the assessed taxes need not be so
imperatively required. So that the Hon. Member for
Bridport was too late in calling upon the Government
for a declaration of their opinions upon this subject.—
With regard to the present proposition the Noble Lord
had said that he thought the Hon. Baronet (Sir
H. Fleetwood) was fairly entitled to bring it forward.
Now what were the arguments of the Hon. Baronet.
that the 101. householders out of the borough were as
respectable, doubtless, and as entitled to vote for the
county, as the 101. householders in the borough. All
he (Sir R. Peel) could say was, that this had not been
the principle of the Reform Bill.—(Hear, hear.) And
if that principle were good in one case, it was equally so
in another, and pushed to its full extent, would do
away with any distinction in the right of voting.—
(Hear, hear.) He should undoubtedly resist the pro-
position of the Hon. Baronet. The Noble Lord had
said that there were three classes of opinions with re-
gard to the Reform Bill : that there were those who were
of the Noble Lord's own opinion, who were prepared to
maintain it, though with various improvements ; there
were those who were wholly dissatisfied with it ; and
those who while adhering to the letter of the Bill,
wished to deprive persons of their due rights under it.
Now he (Sir R. Peel) belonged not to either of
these three classes.—(Hear, hear.) He was for
maintaining the spirit of the Reform Bill—
he belonged to a fourth party—to those, who having
originally been opposed to the Reform Bill, had yet
consented to accept it in a frank and fair spirit, as a
constitutional settlement of a great question—as final
as any measure of legislation could be expected to be.
It would be madness to expect more—(Hear, hear )
—and he utterly abominated any attempt to deprive
persons of their legal rights under that Bill, either by
corruption or from intimidation.—(Cheers.) He hoped
that the advice of the Hon. Member for Bridport
would be rejected by the Government. The Hon.
Member seemed to wish the Noble Lord to make some
vague declaration, to deceive and bewilder the country
—(Loud cheers from the Opposition)—not for the
purpose of improving the Constitution of the country,
but to enable the Reform party to fight under better
auspices their election contests.—(Continued cheering.)
If the Hon. Member was the representative of the
Liberal party, no wonder they had lost the confidence
of the country.—(Cheers.) If such were the principles
upon which they acted, no wonder they feared to meet
their constituents.—( Renewed cheering.) It was the duty
of the Government to be explicit.—(Hear hear.) If
the Reform Bill was to be altered, it should be altered
immediately.—(Hear, hear.) He protested against
this new system of transacting the public business—
measures should be maturelyj considered—in principle
and in detail—and then fairly submitted to Parliament
under the responsibility of the Executive, instead of by
this system of vague declarations, confounding the
functions of the Executive and of Parliament.---( Hear,
hear.) No doubt the Honourable Member for Brid-
port, would be well content that Parliament should
continue till 1842.—(Laughter, and cheers.) No
gentleman could be more easily satisfied with the
smallest modicum, not of reform, but of the profits of
it—(Cheers)—only that he might cut a better figure
upon the hustings.—(Renewed cheers.) But the firm
and manly course was, if the Liberal party had lost the
support of the country, let them try to regain it by an
open avowal of their real principles, and not by be-
wildering and misleading the country.—(Cheers.) Let
not the Government lay the flattering unction to their
souls, that if this measure affection. the 10/. house-
holders were carried, it would be taken as a final
settlement.—(Hear, hear, from the Liberal Members.)
Yes, the avon,al was made, that this measure was
pressed upon the Government only as an stepping-
stone for something more.—(Cheers.) And if this
measure were granted, to conciliate what was called

the " shopocracy"—(Laughter)—it would only give
the unrepresented in the cities and boroughs, a
stronger pretext for pushing their claims for a further ex-
tension of the suffrage.—( Hear, hear.) " Oh," but
said the Hon. Member, " if these our moderate demands
are not conceded," and he (Sir R. Peel) really trembled
as he uttered it—(A laugh)—" we, the Reform party,
will actually press our independent measures on the
country." Why, he (Sir R. Peel) was not aware that
the Reform party had manifested any remarkable for-
bearance hitherto ; they had pressed such measures, for
instance, as the Ballot, and the repeal of the Corn-
laws. He had given the Reform party heretofore
however, it would seem greater credit than they de-
served, if the Hon. Member for Bridport was to be
considered as their representative—(Cries of " No,
no,' from the Ministerial benches, and roars of laughter)
Well, he would still give them credit for having to the
utmost, by all constitutional means, pressed upon the
country their political principles.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
His conviction was, that the most proper course for all
parties, in future, would be, instead of continually
pressinc, for vague,, declarations as to fresh changes,
to apply themselves carefully to the discharge of their
duties as representatives of the people.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. HARVEY concurred in the suggestion of his
Hon. Friend, (Mr. Warburton) that the Members of
the Liberal party should take this opportunity of ex-
pressing their opinions fully and unreservedly—he
thought they owed this not only to their constituents,
and to themselves, but to the Government.—(Hear,
hear.) For himself he was not in any degree sur-
prised, notwithstanding the expectations which had by
some persons been entertained—at the course which the
Government had on the present occasion pursued. He
never anticipated any other declaration than that which
the Noble Lord had so clearly, so unequivocally, and
he would say, so manfully, made to-night.—(Cheers.)
Eager as he was for further reforms—determined as
be was to remain to the last consistent in his advocacy
of those reforms, he owned that he for one, should have
deeply rgretted if the Noble Lord, after his reiterated
declaration upon this subject, had, from any party mo-
tive—to which he was persuaded the Noble Lord
would never yield,—if the Noble Lord bad. in order to
conciliate the opinions of the extreme Liberal party,
and to purchase a short truce of hostility, attempted
some feeble concession.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
In voting, if he should vote for the motion of the Hon.
Member, he wished it to be understood that he only did
so for the purpose of giving the country an opportunity
of knowing who were disposed to go further in the path
of reform. He concurred with those who thought it
was not desirable to deal in dabbling ribrms.—(Cheers.)
He should like to see the Government bring in a Bill to
be called a Reform of the Reform Act, but he should
not be contented unless the provisions of that Bill were
ample and final, so that the time of the House, and that
of the country might not be wasted in preparing mea-
sures that were of no value. He thought the Hon.
Member would not satisfy the country by gettin,,
the Government to assent to a restrictive measure like
the present. The Suffrage must be largely extended—
( Hear)—the duration of Parliament must be limited,
and a proper exercise must be given to the Suffrage by
the Ballot. He was anxious to express an opinion upon
another point. He was not one of those who consi-
dered that without reform they were incapable of pro-
ceeding in objects of useful legislation ; quite other-
wise, because he maintained that that House possessed
within itself the elements of sound legislation. His
decided conviction was that the people themselves, the
constituent bodies throughout the:country, must purify
themselves before they could lay claim to being pure
in political obligations. He maintained that in all
towns where there was a constituency of 1,000 electors
there was the power to protect their own virtue pro-
vided there was the disposition. In Colchester there
were 1,200 resident electors, and why was it that they
could not send Reformers to that House if they were
the real friends to Reform instead of their present re-
presentatives ? 'The reason was plain—they were not
the friends to Reform but of Conservatism. He had
stated these things because he was heartily tired of
those continual struggles between parties in which need-
less speeches were made and nothing done.—(Cheers.)
It was necessary that some step should be taken by
i which a Government should be formed that would secure