The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-13 00:00:00

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.

Upon the motion of Lord CALTHORPE all petitions
relative to the renewal of the East India Company's Charter
were ordered to be laid before the present Committee.

AFFAIRS OF GREECE.

The Order of the Day being called on,

Lord HOLLAND rose to make his promised motion
relative to the affairs of Greece. In doing so the Noble
Lord said—My Lords, I must confess that I was dis-
appointed as well as surprised at the manner in
which the subject of Greece was stated in the Speech
-on the opening of the present Session.—(Hear.)--It
is said that the final settlement of Greece was not yet in
I-a state to enable: Government to lay the particulars of it
before Parliament But, great as that disappointment was,
upon.a little reflection that disappointment, my Lords, is
entirely allayed ; it is still more allayed by further reflection ;
and, my Lords, I am now fully prepared to con-
sider that which I have hitherto considered as a forlorn
hope, as an auspicious and fortunate eircum.-tanee, calcu-
lated to produce the best effects, and the most ad-
vantageous results, for have no doubt that it will be the
means of making the, settlement of Greece more sound
in principle, and render it more advantageous to Europe
than it would otherwise have been.—(Hear, hear. )__And
why, my Lords, do I think so ? Because it will be the.means
of calling upon Noble Lords to press most strenuously upon
the attention of Parliament this most important sub-
ject. . The unexpected delay held out in the Speech of the
completion of a measure so desirable to every one,
calls—nay, my Lords, invites Parliament to take that
measure under its consideration, which has been, and I
assert it without the fear of contradiction, so much ne-
glected. It affords, to Parliament au opportunity of ex-
pressing its opinion of the manner in which those settlements
should be made, and which would be much more advan-
tageous to the Government and the Crown of this
kingdom. My Lords, it is with the hope of getting
your Lordships to seize the opportunity of admonishing
the advisers of the Crown upon this subject, that I now
address you. My Lords, I have great satisfaction in stat-
ing that the resolution which I read to your Lordships
the other day is a resolution that no man can quarrel
with, nor dispute. And indeed, my Lords, I consider it
so little entitled to dispute as to require little from Inc
upon it. My. Lords, I say that if the Crown of this
country take into consideration the welfare of another
part of the world, it must take care that the measures
which it adopts are advantageous to the subjects of that
country. My Lords, I know well it is not sufficient for me
to induce . your Lordships or Parliament to adopt
a proposition to sheiv that it is true. lam very
well aware that something more is requisite.
My Lords, - in calling your Lordships' attention to my
proposition, I apprehend your Lordships will find it to
contain sound. and just principles, and that the adoption of
it by your House will have the effect of enforcing enquiry
into the conduct of Government. lam aware that the
expression of my resolution implies a certain distrust in
the advisers of his Majesty. lam willing to acanowleige
it, and what I wish to impress upon, your Lordships is
that that distrust is rested upon the grounds which if
you see as I do, are obviously true, will entitle rue to your
support in the resolution I am about to propose. As
this resolittion is founded in distrust in his Majesty's
Government, and others connected with the public afftirs,
I beg to observe I certainly should feel I should be
speaking somewhat disingenuously if I did not at once
avow manfully and openly, that th4t is Rot, anci what are
say feelings.—(Chsera.) Thslogli ilie'feelinge of distrust
that aliy arse enteitains towards 'his Majesty's Government
fsnot a very fit subject for Parliamentary or other conversa-
tion, yet- I must, without restraint, say a few worth,
and make a few observations which, tl:prigit perhaps
not very agreeable to se ~e, 011, nevertheless, 'be
without the distantintention' of offendigg any
our
that •in lins I ant ready to assure the
aithc;oxli the motion- which I shall haVe the
,
honour of submitting implies a distrust—and a strong
distrust—in his Majesty's advisers, as to their foreign
policy, and especially with respect to "their, poliey
in this particular affair, yet it is no intend4tY me, in
introducing this t:ecol4;iiin, to di-slush them in their power,
as o larm rife gititindwork for any solid and permanent
oTo their Government I do not entertain
-any general feeling of opposition. lam ready to admit
i" b T
that his Majesty's present Government hare iu one import-
ant instance—and peThapa iy more, but certainly. in one.—
dazi; the public a great' service. ' I "tin feel grateful for
the 'manner- in which they accomplished that great service.
At the Woe time I must say-I do not think. tLq; are des-
tined to do many more.'- (qrtv laughter):-My loid;
Ide tint' ;),ring terward this subject, as' I have said, furthe purpose 'of removing his-Majesty's advisers from their i
office, but I feel that it 'is necessary fiir 4e on the'present.
:.,oeztHioif to "Speak freely arai'openif, and I wish to tell your
What I really think of their Government. • I aro

afraid when I come to speak particularly of theirGovernmcnt
I must being forward topics of praise and of censure. lam
afraid that his Majesty's advisers will like my topics of
praise as little as they will like my censure.--(A laugh.)
I think the present Government, to which I feel an objection,
both as to its composition and its system, pursues a system
extremely foreign to the feelings of this country. When,
however, I speak of the conduct of Government, d must
give them one considerable commendation. I think, when
they find that any line of policy is actually necessary for
their power, and right for the views of Government, they
will manfully discard all their former opinions, disregard
in toto their previous conduct, and effect their purpose
with a steadine.s which I admire, and a good sense which
I cannot help applauding. (Laud cheers and much
laughter. )—But whenever they are net forced to take
some line of conduct—whenever they are left to take their
own course, either from the apathy of the public, the
inattention of the House, or from any other cause what-
ever--whenever they are left to their own choice,
I must say they uniformly choose the wrong.—(Great
laughter.)—This being the case, I think it highly
important that Parliament should interfere for
the purpose of showing them what course they
ought to pursue, and directing them in the
necessary steps to be taken. As I have said, my pro-
position—as I hope your Lordships will be of opinion—
contains sound principles, and your Lordships' adoption of it
will infuse those views into Government, because
whenever those who are his Majesty's present advisers
find there is a course pointed out that must be par.-.
sued, they are certainly good boys, so far as that they will
swallow the bolus, however unpalatable.—(A laugh. )
I cannot help remarking, whatever may be the final
settlement of the Greek question, even if it should be such
as those most anxious for the welfare of that '
unfortunate country, as those most anxious for
the interest and for the honour of this country.
(which all good men must have in view) would
desire, that it is not only demonstrable in argu-
ment, but self-evident and obvious to the most careless
observer that that event might have been obtained
in a manner snore honourable to Great Britain,
with less risk to the tranquillity of Europe after the battle
of Navarin than after the success of the Russian arms in
Bohemia. Those events might have been obtained by the con-
federated powers with less blood and less risk, immediately
after the Treaty of London, than after the successes in Ro-
melia and Bulgaria. This assertion, my Lords, does not
require proof—it must no doubt be very obvious to all,
and it is therefore only necessary for me to recall your
Lordships' attention to the high situation in which his
Majesty's Government stood on that memorable day, when
the Noble Duke opposite appeared in this House us First
Lord of the Treasury. My Lords, let us look at the situa-
tion Great Britain then held. She held that situation
which I trust she always will hold, a noble, honour-
able, and commanding station ; she, without giving
grounds for any invidious comparison, without
giving just cause of complaint to any one, stood on an
eminence, likely to be productive of benefit and advantage,
not only to Greece herself, but to all the States of Europe
interested in the settlement of that unfortunate question.
In that situation she was placed by concurrent causes.
What, my Lords, was the situation of France at that
period? France, which always stands in a situation
of eminence, I will say of rivalry, to this country,
acceded to the views of the Government of this country,
not from any narrow notions on the subject, but from a
wish to benefit the contending parties. Russia had con-
sent d and made material sacrifices to enter into the con-
federacy—sacrifices which showed what sort of value she set
upon our co-operation—what value she set upon our cordial
friendship and alliance. Added to this, my Lords, our
possessions in the Mediterranean, not far from the seat of
war, gave us a considerable influence in the
settlement of that question—(Hear)—and the wishes
and the expressed feelings of this country showed
that there was an unbroken attachment—a decided predi-
lection shown by all parties in the Government for the
success of the Greeks. Those circumstances gave ad-
vantages, the extent of which no one could have
calculated upon, and the result of which we have seen
bursting out in different and unequivocal circumstances.
We have seen Russia and France with honour to them-
selves, and with the highest reliance upon our honour,
place the combined fleet under the command of an
English Admiral, and by doing so obtain those ad.
vantages which all must obtain who place implicit
confidence in the !tonsil's., the bravery, and the skill of a
British Commander. France and Russia reaped advan-
tages, and participated in those laurels which that great
Naval Commander, and great he is, and bight his name must
stand in the annals of his country—in those laurels which
that great commander reaped, after haring achieved a vic-
tory with inferior force—after having baffled a superior
force in the bay of Navarin, and achieved a victory
which resounded from one end of Europe to the other,
and which brought to a satisfactory termination the
first great contest in which those three Powers had ever
confederated in the memory of man. Such, my Lords, was
our situation at that period. Now look at the contrast?
Let us look at the language and conduct of the Govern-
ment of the present day. In the first place; as to their
language. When the news of that victory reached Eng-
land, your Lordships will recollect that the present Cabinet
had recently been formed, and when the country was to
be informed of this victory the vocabulary was ransacked
for an ungenerous word to express distrust and disgust of
that victory. That word was even put into the &aerial
mouth of his Majesty ; the Ministers introduced it into the
King's Speech--he said the Ministers, for the word we.;
theirs—they introduced it Into the King's Speech hat they
might tarnish the laurels of the only British Commender
who had, in modern times, led a combined and confede,
rate force to as great a victory as j ewe recollect in our
navel annals. It was only in this country that this victory
esas called " untcswatd," The French King spoke of it
in very different language; and the Emperor of Russia
distinctly and directly epproVel of it. The Ministers
called it " untoward.' But wily, when it was so well
calculated to promote the great end the confederates had in
view, and even bring the affairs of Greece to a happy con-
elusion ? In this manner, then, my Lords, were the tarot_
pects of Greece blighted—its hopes cruelly d;eaKatainterl,
and its expectations frustrated by that sittgle word " un-
toward." lam not, tai have akeady'said, iq peseta/An
of any papesa ; nether have any information by which I
could lay before you the exact aeceeßaiun of the dates of
those events which hey() mentioned, or to which I may
hereafter have eccasiart to refer. It is not front any official
flocninents, or from any thing more than common rquissur,
that I state a. blockade of the Dardanelles. was Pros,
posed ; but whether I have it, or haw it not from such
sources, it is a mutterof putilc notes siety, an-
nounced in the newspapere. To this
it was under-
etwal that the prio,h Administration acquiesced, that
Russia was the active early, and that France did not
ject. But it ayes maintained that the permanent block-
ade was not to be agreed to; fur the Turks waaald, be
much more likely to yield to the wishea et che Three
Allied Powers, if they would only it stitt with their hands
before them, and let these tad wiles commit every con-
ceivable cruelty they chose upon those unfortunate beings
\r hens they thesight proper to designate as their suN,ee;js.
• .7.(tear, hear.)—There was a difficulty alsee,t titig roe
posed blockade of the Dardanelles. . y 1 i.t had, yrigina.ted
with the English, all that 04cialty, wends' haves beets re-
moved ; and if firea laritairs, had: only hem true to its an-
et
ihe;;I;:1;ey1,. it'"eosi°!;ssil;s9, t:akst‘mwUrcCh culled,re grt theat
weakness and hu-
time misfortut s of
thv ditomans as, perhaps, other Noble Lords
snitration'ef 'the Turlie would not have been exposed—not
House. Amongst other causes of ream. ariaing from the
Manner in which this extreos:ditsa-.;y course of public policy
has involved us that whereas we might have received
the Cenk\slese,, awl gratitude of , Russia; in the exercise of
diacretion entrusted to
_us, we have, by an opposite
policy from that which common sense and conse,sal•taru-
thence dictated, given her reason to seEpa,le that we en-
tertain against her a secret etsea;ty, and thus added further
causes of excitesecet to that hostile temper—if such exist
woad isave been for our honour and ell ean-
iiag to use every exertion to allay. Butt l;eugh we talked
much of our ancient Ally, our laeigsetge. alms* the next
moment was of this le,eset discouraging charactes,the
whole of wicket,. both to die Turks ee4.. 4,0 Qua.,
see,a sech, both wee
symbol ofstr9
ez4iqe(t Vue-T.htitt Ote—our
Shies nanaum.,,
jaur
aeferri
profane hands were never to touch the
Mtge to the, grek. at A41.4,;it cOVQ4I Inorneut was cold
anfffeceeing, s'actkstient to damp and chill the most ardent
It then seemed as if the Greeks Is me of the I •
~;sae. it rennin se Inclined passage of Virgil--es
ii
before, '4.4Q Nablc. ljuk saidworse situation
~ Ex Mu fluere ac retro subl
eno trooas should bet

as troops, send us money. To tWee.his atisrer yeas,
slat to them; but then they repttedi'irerkri d
to England, though you de net send troops; or seud money
allow us to do it; instantly thereupon Great Bra 'ta.n In-
tl the
practically,
country.
But shallF r have
aui.e neither-noandu tr
advanced,Ops'- ith
say entry
.c:',7r
in-
terposes, saying that to assent to any such principle as
that one or two members of a triple alliance should art
without the privity and consent of a third, was not to be
for a moment endured ; that' to make such a propteeitiou
was nothing less than to propose the utter destruction of
the whole Treaty; it would be, the British Government
alleged, contrary to the words and spirit of the bond. I
do not know but that there is some colour for giving to
the Treaty that interpretation. It was perfectly true that
if one party obstinately held out, the others in good faith
were not at liberty to move an inch--:they must act toge-
ther, or not at all ; but what was to prevent one of the
parties, by consent, enatiling the others to do what the
occasion demanded ? Why should England say no money
or troops are to be sent out to Greece, because I am not
in a condition to send either? Here, then, was England
assuming to herself the harsh and disagreeable office of
saying to a poorer and a weaker couutry—one that
had scarcely yet assumed the form of a State—
true, you ate in distress and difficulty—you are
struggling with powerful enemies—you have looked
up to ins in an especial manner for protection and
countenance in the hour of your adversity : but from me
you shall receive none—not only Will I not advance you a
single shilling, or send you one man for your protection,
but I will interfere to prevent others doing so, however
willing they might be; and willing they were, but Eng-
land forbade it. At one time she held one language, at
another time she adopted a different tone—she went through
every note in the gamut, no instrument could play so many
tones.—(A laugh.) It was in vain that her Allies pro-
posed to send troops. Nu said the. Noble Duke—not a
man shall move. The French said, send your own troop~.
The Noble Duke said, No. Then let us. Oh ! that
would be ten times worse.—(Hear, bear. " No, no !"
from the Duke of Wellington.) I see the Noble Duke
denies my statement ; and from the eagerness with which
lie does so, I am, I suppose, to conclude, that though
wrong in that, I am right in all else, seeing thatup to this
time he has not expresses' the slightest 'dissent.—(A
laugh.) At length troops were seat. I know nothing of
what I state from any official papers, neither from any
communication with any of the parties; I have no con.
flexion with any of them ; I take my information, such as
it is, from the public papers—from the current news to be
heard in the streets by any of the public, with such other
facts as could be collected in priiato conversation by a
youngcie
y mama whot, as hasi have
good
o
they art ived, our conimander in the Mediterranean imnie-
oot r
t. But, the
said,gd
oo fortune to
regt sent,
diately, with the highest judgment and promptitude, took
advantage of that favourable occurrence to negociate with
the Pacha of Egypt, with a view to effect the meal of his
se e'
into
when
barbarous troops from the Mores, and a Treaty for their
evacuation of that territory was signed ; but the ink
with which that Treaty was signed had scarcely time
to dry when that Gallant Officer was superseded in his
command and recalled. The moment the Freed) troops
landed Ibrahim Pacha quitted the Morea. Therefore the
assertion was perfectly well founded that the French had
cleared the Morea. But all that time a horrible warfare
was going 011 in other parts of Greece, and the Commander
who had endeavoured to rescue Athens, and the other dis-
tricts opposi:d to that warfare, was recalled by the British
Government. In the meanwhile an earnest remonstrance
on the part of Greece was forwarded to Paris, but the effect
of that was defeated. I will not say whether it was right
influence upon the victory at Navarin ; it distracted the
or wrong, but this I will say, that it produceda withering
Counc 1. of the Gr.eke—it estranged their mimic from that
particu'ar country which they had chosen for their ally and -
protector—that country which, at the moment new ionos
portant ta their success, recalled the gallant Comniraaer
who had done them the highest services they had ever ex•
perienced at the hands of foreigners. I need not tell your
Lordship that this had a most ruinous effect upon the for-
tunes of a new State endeavouring to eetabilsh itself in Eu-
rope. If it had been encouraged and supported as it ought,
its original predilections and attachment to this country
cherished, how different would have beep the result, and
how advantageous to England, I will leave your Lortlehipe
to judge. But Russia stopped in, and it was not with the
most tardy, and, if I may so speak, unwilling Submission
that England admitted an interference obviously repugnant
to the feelings of her Government. , Was that, I put it to
your Lordships, the conduct which ought to have been put. '
sued by the Ministers of a great and powerful and benerolv,,t
Monarch, meditating in a conflict between violent-vlmi: bar-
barism on the one side, and a sufferiug and Christian people
on the other? In coming forward to censure tho'conduct
which Ministers have pursued on this occatiisn, and through..
out the whole of this interesting conteet, If •
admit that I am
bound to thew, by means of indieputahle facts and just
reasoning, that the conduct they have pursued is not
worthy a great netien, or one professing to act upon
principles of good faith; and I trust that, so tit as I have
gone, I have succeeded ; and I expect that in what I have
to go through I shall not fail to eeteldiah the position's itor
which I contend. I admit that we were bound to Turkey
to a certain extent-...that I acknowledge is true; anti it
is *ally truth that I am no lover of the Turk,' but I am a
lover of PO faith--and I am a lover of fair dealin and
of honourable character—and I never can bring myself to
think that it is coneiatent with the honour and chafeda.
of Great Britain to have behaved even to Turkey as she
had done. Has nut, my Lords, her conduct beim of that
deceitful and hollow friendship? Has not England to-
wards Turkey been guilty of base and pusillanimous deser-
tion? Iles she nut shrinak front the support of her ally iu
the moment of adversity and distress ? On that memorable
day, when the Noble Duke took his seat in this House as
calour tartowtlitetultiaatiltyh:
bTtllttt koiNiYe:Stohletrinatneegireintyt
Rivet Lord of the Treasury, it was stated to us as histo-',_
riot only
olify,":lljose
empiie
and the faith of treaties to tue-.:,,-"taiu. Yes, my
and dominions iv' wore bound by
PLe ties of interest
drat the maintenance of the:,,
--empire in Europe was essential
Lords,
tq the balance nr E'::rOpe ; and, finally, that it was alike
our duty_ au'. 'interest to maintain that empire in such a
ituuti"ll as that it should be capable of defending itself.
.owards the close of the same Session similar language
was bell by the Noble Secretary. He, indeed, did not
dwell upon the Antiquity of the alliance—there his reputa-
tion seould have been et stake ; as President of the Anti-
quarian Society he was not forward to contend fur the
antiquity of the alliance, for he had archives to refer to,
and possibly he there found that this most ancient alliance
was only of twenty or thirty years' standing. Still
the Noble Secretary, though discreetly suppree:-,ng
any allusion to the remote origin of thin alliance,
repeated, as emphatically as the N01..e Duke had
dorsee that it was essential to the balance of Europa
that there should not be any diminution of the power of
the Turk, or any diminution of his iefinence in the affairs
of Europe; and that it was ;il.B.- duty of hie Majesty's
advisers to do all in their. power to prevent that
diminution. I will not waste the time of your Lordships
with inquiries, et: this time of day, into the justice or the
fully of thus ss opinions, for facts have before now pretty
fglly disclosed their true character as a policy unknown
to the practice of British Statesmen, and decidedly op/tined
to the dicta of all the great men of the last century." How-
ever, such were the avowed opinions of the responsible ad-
visers of the Crown, and it now remained to be seen how
far their conduct accorded with that opinion ; and if, •
upon examinatiou, they had not been found to act up to
it, what opinion must be formed of their wisdom and their
kirineiples ?, It must be full in the recollection of
your Lordships, that not very long sines a Noble
vord
familiar with the affairs a the East of Europe, `stated in
this House that the langur of his MajeeSysi Govern-
ment was the subject of Inareservuti diatiussion with the
Ott even Porte-eethrst lime Government of Constantinople
fi.scelY Canveseed what was said in the House, and ini-
Atwlhraynelliaoeyrmittitcopiatiatiue::pudoiti.w:pewoilir::twoetohpphios‘;e:l4,,t.
4,Rtoly weighed and canvassed the language of the Sove-
eelgn and the Ministers. lfroua this the inference was
obvious, that though they (the Turks) might have found
themselves magage4 war with Russia, their ancient
ally, England,, would come to their assistance in the mo.
,sent neeLL The Turks might well thiah, though -ow
formidable power of Russia might threaten them, that.
yet
rest
is et tain
dwpaia:s
as
ea:
vc
i6.greatc4o,e,p
iiolnyw:Tee in a;
ac4rniati
she might always regard as her, confederate wheneyer meal
•
grit
s
danger was at hand. • • The Turk might say I have a faith-
his Majesty's
(16,4/.0 he self bound by treaties and determined by
luded—thue , induced to. persist in a ruinous eour
it was tlerived,
cockirredand who
uapt tahse
itfi:lsvta am: monism
adulation and interference will
ofs
my enemy to flight.,
y
G.ov.erntgetit, but how grievously the,
fatally
and at what a dietresting moment was
conduct of the Kiseis Government an-
that vieceit first felt, when the alined language *mil
tiouticed to them that
fcc4A their gran friend, their
ancient ad?, they lila lapthiog, to hope..—(Hear, hear )
ln the blockt4k fo4 instance, of Treviso by the Gmlis,
t was )fifit,c tiAt_eiss out of the line of 3eropcased
neotrajity, Soule Noble Loedr were great biers sto a
litockatie;citleers were great layer; of sittratratity. In the.,
same manner his Majesty' Govvrvanent wnuctintt s sup.. ,
ported the Greek, and awl gave encourngemeet to. the,
Turk, and both were alit/eras from liar hollow friewlship,

att.l lter Ribaantial enmity. For my part, I never could un-
derstand the policy which made this country send an Ambas-
sador to Constantinople. Then look, my Lords, to the position
to which the conduct of the British Government reduced
the Ottoman Porte. After the Russians passed the Balkan,
they wade an offer of treating with the Turks—to that the
Covet oneent of-Constantinople sent no answer, good or bad,
nt•t even an attempt at an evasive reply. The Sultan did
that whielt Louis XVIII. did on the return of Buena-
parte from Elb.t ; he said, " I will never desert my capi-
t 1, 1 will contest its safety to the latest moment." He
weal die within the secret] precincts of St. Sophia, and
a vast deal more such balderdash—(A laugh)—and how
did all this end ? Just as such boasting generally does, in
complete submission—victory succeeded victory, and -all
this time what was passing in the mind of the Turk ?
He must hive soliloquized somewhat after this fashion—
Tree lam in great jeopardy—l am encompassed with
daneer and difficulty—the enemy is at my gate ; but then
I have en old friend, an ancient ally, who has employed
the strongest expressions which his language affords, to
prove how strongly he feels bound to preserve the integrity
of my empire by every obligation of honour and of interest
—how necessary the maintenance of my empire is to the
preservation of the balance of Europe ; and now, since I
have lately become better instructed in the customs of the
Christians, I learn that the preservation of that balance of
Europe is the sole and only reason for keeping up a stand-
ing army"—as he might easily have seen from the pre-
amble to the Mutiny Act. He then might go on to say—
. My ally and faithful friend, has not, it is true, large
armies at his disposal ; hut then he is master of a powerful
fleet, and capable of transmitting assistance in more forms
than one ; and as a proof of the sincerity of his desire to
afford me the necessary aid when the proper moment shall
arrive, he has sent the brother of his Reis Effendi to con•
cult with my Ministers for the safety of my throne and my
dominions, and to give them the benefit of his advice and
information. Besides, the-mere name of my ancient ally
will te, in itself, enough to intimidate the foe—like
Achilles, his shout from the walls will suffice to put
the hostile army to flight."—(Hear, hear, hear.).—
Well then, my Lords, the brother of the Reis Effendi
goes out as an Ambassador, awl, after a few secret
communications, and so on, the British Ambassa-
dor gives his final advice, and what does that turn
out to be ?—After all that was said about ancient treaties,
and the balance of Europe, and the necessity of preserving
Turkish infinecce in European affairs, what is the advice
of the British Ambassador ?s—nothing snore or less than
unconditional submission.—(Hear, hear.)—" Nothing for
you to do," says he to the Sultan, " hut to submit totally,
with the best possible grace, to your invaders—intrust
your fortunes to the magnanimity of the most unreason-
able and despotic monarch in Europe."—(Hear, hear.)—
This reminds me of a story in some of the writings, I
think, of Dean Swift, in which Don Diego, on being con-
sulted by a friend in jeopardy and distress as to what he
hail best do—" My dear friend," sail the party consulted,
" your ease is desperate ; I promised to assist you to the
utmost of my power, both with advice and in every other
possible way, but the only advice that, in the present
emergency, I can offer, is—to hang yourself—(Great
laughter, and cheering)—yes, my friend, hang yourself,
and in the dusk of the evening I will repair to the spot
aid cut you down." But what does this honest friend
do?--tie goes, and instead of cutting down his unhappy
victim, pulled him by the heels for the purpose of tighten-
ing the noose, and rendering complete the destruction of
his victim.—(Hear, hear. )—One point still remained,
which might be urged for the interest of Turkey.—
the were nominal sovereignty over Greece, and the pay-
ment of a small tribute. Yet even that paint was struck
out, and the intereste of Turkey totally disregarded, and
all this time the British Government told the Turk that
they could not help what was going forward ; and then
when those hostilities ended in the perfect humiliation of
the Turkish power, the Minister comes to Parliament,
and says he has great satisfaction in announcing the ter-
mination of hostilities, and such a termination, too, in
the annihilation of their old and faithful ally. Such are
the speeshes of his Majesty's Ministers. They say, "He
is our old friend, a very old friend of the family—the re-
ams of this affair is extremely painful and unfortunate—
our pour old friend got into a terrible quarrel with a hot
sturdy fellow, notorious for fighting sanguinary duels.—
(A laugh.)—Our friend has been unfortunately knocked
down ; he has kern rolled in the kennel ; he has been
licked and cudgelled till scarcely a hope is left for him"—
(Great laughter)--and what does the faithful friend and
ancient ally do next? He goes about to his neighbours
and acquaintances, rubbing his hands, and saying,—
,Oh I have good news for you—all the nasty quarrel
between joy friend and that formidable fellow is quite
over. True, my poor friend has had the worst of it,
but then I have great satisfaction in being able to in-
f.: et you that hentilities have been terminated."—
(Cheers.)—Now, my Lords, is not this a fair illustration
of the conduct of his Majesty's Government in the po-
sition into which they have brought this country with re.
'talon to Turkey, and I should gladly be instructed as to
the manner in which that position can be made to consist
with the true intereet of the country, the justice of Parlia-
ment, or the honour of the Crown, however convenient to
themselves his. Majesty's Ministers might have supposed
it. Having occupied so much of your Lordelsios' time, I
shall not row go through the various coasiderations that
suggest themselves as to the manner in which these pro-
ceeliuge are likely to effect our relations with Russia. As
respects France itwas extremely ill-timed, calculated to ex-
cite the most injurious suspicions, and likely to alienate, us
fratu the government and inhabitant of that country to an
extent the consequences of which we yet severely experi-
ence. There is one observation with respect to Russia,
which I cannot avoid making, that much stress has been
kid upon our trade with the Black Sea. Now with the
ex, eption of Azaf, which can scarcely be considered ne-
cessary- to except, we had no trade with the Black Sea
while it was in the hands of Turkey; bat from the mo-
ment tiusaist got possession of it, we might be will to have
the command of the Black Sea, for one ship of this ceun-
try that before traded to the Black Sea, thirty-four were
stow found in its port. The whole of our policy to-
wards Russia has been, during this contest, such as almost
to exceed the bounds of credibility, did not the facts stand
upon evidence at most unquestionable. Our conduct
with respect to that country was the acme of imbecility.
I will apply to this case the lines of a writer, Ausonies,
wise, though he writes in verse, is not very poetical, yet
with some success he contrasts a wise sal foolish man—.
Quid pruilentis opus ? cui possis none mem, •
Quid stulti proprium est ? non posse et relic isossarts.".
We showed our teeth without the power of biting, or
rattle with every disposition to indulge hostility and exe-
eite all possible evil. We displayed our gumless jaws in
all the impotency of malice. My Lords, the day will
come when we shall rue the errors a which our Govern..
meta have been guilty—when our treatment of France—
whets our neglect of the opportunity of adding Candle to
the territories of Greece; and when our omission to
strengthen the young state, by means of Egypt, will re,
net upon ourselves with a force of which no man can see
site remote consequencee. I think, my Lords, I have
already /aid sufficient grounds to justify the assertion that
this Government has acted disingenuously. ; now come
ttea part of the subject on which it is necessary that I
should acknowledge I speak a good deal front conjeettme.
1 have no private sources of information—no access to
titticial pipers—no man hi the House has taken less pains
than l have to ascertain what is going on. I really know
seething but what is derived from tin current conversa-
tion of tie clay, and from the newspapers—for, my
Lorde, newspapers will continue to write, noteithetand-
ing the prosecutions of the Noble Duke. In this way efsests
rums-Jars have been put Lento to which lam anxious to call
the attention of Parliament. They are to this effect :
that there is an intention to cooteut within still narrower
limits the territory of Greece then gy,eg those within
which it was first understood that the hountleries of the
young State were to be confined ; and I the mama pa.tects-
larly address myself to this, as there is at the pteseut mo-
ment a civil war going on in Cen.dia, of a kind the most
disgraetiol to humanity; and as, apart from other reasons,
that island bast Greeks for the swijoe part of its inhabitants,
I conceive that those who had to deal with the Istsundaries
of Greece were guilty of an egregious error, in not nege-
cisting for the Ciusdia's being included within its limits.
But I understand it has gegen into a maxim, that this
anatter of Greece is a bad itusioaes altogether; and that
our best &Aurae was to fall on come expo Bent by which to
let as little mitathief come of it as possible it was enough
llOr us to have to execute the treaty of the 6tia Of July,
and that even in doing that w had better do it, if possibie,
without plucking a feather from the Turk—to do him,
tics short, as little injury as possible.-e-( Hear, hear, hear.)
As to our conduct towards Russia, it stress little less than
downright madness—it was not fair with rowel; to
any Government, and it was peculiarly impolitic with
regard to such a one as that of Russia. The greet
principle, my Lords, for which I have been contending is
this, that we have been guilty of the grossest error in not
securing to Greece a strong Government and'ette'rritory
sufficient for the miinterritiee OfitsOttele indejAdence. The.
tatabliehrnent of telifetsik'power in the-Mediterranean is
worse than nuetatnry. The narne4f an Illustrious Prince
has been mentioned' in cotineethow with this subject. The
intellectual- quelifleationt'of: that illustrious personage for
the sitesetion'in question ere well known. Ile has had the
cileantage of ten or twelve years' experience of free insti-
tutions in this Country, and it:jg rumoured that !leis, still

' designated by the wishes of the people of Greece, as the
individual most to be desired, and that he even was so
before the Protocol of the 6th of July. Of this, Loci-
ever, I profess to know nothing ; but the general rumour
upon this subject is so strong, and the concurrent evi
Bence in its favour proceeding from every quarter, that I
cannot entertain any doubt as to the wishes of the Greek
people. I believe that the Greeks have too much sense
to adopt any other f,rrn of Government than that of a
limited Monarchy ; but let us reflect upon the cruel situa-
tion of the head of that Government, if, before he takes
upon himself that authority, the affairs of Greece, in the
most extended sense, are not completely settled. Observe
what is the present condition of Candia, in the nominal
possession of the Turks. It is peopled by Greeks, who are
now in a spate of insurrection; the strong places are
in the bands of the Turks, but commotions already pre-
vail, and a general civil war is on the point of
breaking out in the island. However wise, how-
ever pru,tent, however just the new head of the Greek
Government may be, Ire will be a stranger to the people,
and you may compel him to adopt a line of conduct he
would not otherwise choose. He must, in the first in-
etance, either connive at his own subjects carrying on
clandestine intercourse with the insurgents in Candia, and
then the predatory warfare, with all its outrages revolting
to human nature, must he continued, or he must openly
espouse the cause of his oppressed brethren and subjects.
If such be his determination, what, then, will be the con-
sequence? Peace? No—a new war, which may em-
broil all the Powers of Europe in the dispute, and then
the Treaty will have to be re-settled, and all that has been
done, having been undone, will have to be done again.
The Sovereign of Greece may take a third course—he
may say, " I will maintain a strict neutrality, and prevent
the consequence of any assistance from my Empire." I
suppose that he will be allowed to pursue vessels on the
high seas, that have left his ports for the purpose of earry-
ing arms or stores to Candia; and, if he maintains that
strict neutrality, what is it but folding his arms in apathy
before him, and seeing his brethren in language, in man-
ners, and in country, murdered and massacred by whole-
sale? If any, the slightest, suspicion be felt that such
will be the situation of the Potentate of Greece, it is the
duty and right of Parliament to interfere, and to express
a decided opinion before the great work is attempted to be
completed. There is ameher report which I have heard
somewhere, and which I earnestly hope is without founda-
tion ; but it has been hinted somewhere—perhaps the
suggestion of the Evil Genius which seems to have hovered
unseen over all who have interfered in this question—

Infert se septus nebula, mirabile dictu,
Per mettles, miscetque viris ; neque cernitur ulli—
that care is to be taken that the Government of Greece
shall be in a particular form—that whoever may hold the
reins of authority, he is not to consult the wants and
wishes of the people, but is to obey the dictation of others.
Some fears of the Pope or of the King of Naples (for I
suppose Austria does not venture to stand forward and avow
her own apprehensions on the subject), are supposed to
have led to this determination. Such an abominable, such
a disgusting principle of action I hope in God will never
guide the Ministers of this country. Ido not and cannot
suspect them of it ; but I think, nevertheless, that Parlia-
ment ought to interpose, in order to put them on their
guard, and to declare, in the words of my Resolution,
that the Government of Greece ought to he established
" with full powers to adopt laws and institutions
suited to the wants and wishes of the people." I have
gone at greater length than I intended into the state-
ment of my views, and I have therefore to apologise to
your Lordships; but I maintain the unioubted right of
the House to adopt this course as the hereditary Coun- •
sellors of his Majesty. It was said that such a course was
unprecedented. I thought I remembered instances of the
kind, but I would not trust my memory, and looking
through the Journals, I found precedents enough to over-
whelm any body. I shall not, therefore, further fatigue
your Lordships by producing or erepldning any of them ;
but I will conclude by moving--" That no pacification or
settlement of Greece will appear to this House permanently
advantageous to the interests of Europe, or honourable to
his Majesty's Crown, which does not give to that country
a territory sufficient for national defence, both by land and
by sea, and does not establish a Throne and Government,
with full powers to adapt the laws and institutions to the
wants and wishes of the people, and to protect the sub-
jects of Greece from all foreign interference in their do-
mestic concerns."

The question having been put,
The Earl of ABERDEEN said—l had hoped that the
declaration in his Majesty's Speech, by which Parliament
was informed that the King had concerted measures with
his Allies for the pacification and final settlement of
Greece, and the expression of a confident hope on the part
of his Majesty that it would be in his power speedily to
lay before Parliament the particulars of that arrangement,
would have been sufficient to repress, for a time at least,
the impatience of Noble Lords to enter into a discus-
sion on this subject. But the Noble Baron having
been unable to resist the temptation of such' an in-
viting topic, in my opinion has brought it before the
House in a manner certainly most unusual, and which
can only be justified by a well-founded suspicion of
those whose duty it is more immediately to advise
the Crown. To warrant such a proceeding, the Noble
Baron must suppose, with apparent reason, that we are
either indifferent to the honour of the Crown, or unwil-
ling to carry into effect the stipulations of treaties by
which we profess to be bound. Nov where, let me ask,
is the proof to justify any such suspicion? What right
has the Noble Baron to entertain it, and has any thing
that. has occurred since his Majesty was advised by his
present Ministers led to any such conclusion ? The Noble
Viscount who spoke on a former night (Goderich), inte-
rested as he naturally was on the execution of that Treaty,
which now engages attention, and which your Lordships
ale desirous to be fulfilled, admitted with the fairness
and candour that belong to him, that the acquiescence of
Great Britain in the French expedition to the Mores was
a sufficient proof of the desire of this Government to see
its provisions adopted. Had we not been disposed to at-
tend to the spirit of that Treaty, meat certainly by the
letter of it we might have forbidden the departure of a
single soldier from France. 'We gave this proof, therefore,
of cur desire to see it carried into execution, and in the
whole of our conduct we have afforded no ground what-
ever for the suspicion the Noble Baron entertains of our
sincerity, But if his motion be extraordinary after the
assurances from the Throne, and in the present state of
our foreign negnciations, it is still more extraordinary
when we come to examine its real character and. nature.
By proposing a vote, that in constituting this New State
we shall give it certain capacities, dimensions, and powers,
he sanotions an act of wanton spoliation on a friendly
nation, without thy slightest pretext to justify it. The
Noble Baron speaks as if there were some huge, newly-
discovered, continent to be partitioned, and forgets the
real stipulations of the Treaty of London. He forgets
_that that Treaty does not profess to have in view the in-
dependence of Greece to any extent. It is a Treaty for
the pacification of Greece. I see in it the expression of
various tuoti:ses oprating upon the high contracting
parties, not one of which has relation to the independence
of Greece. If, then, from a change of circumstances. we

have been able to deviate from the strict line of the Treaty,
and have uniformly deviated in favour of the Greek popu-
lation, it cannot be said that we have been reluctant to
carry into elfeet the stipulations of the Treaty of London.
So much the contrary, that we have gone beyond the ex-
pectations of the mo-st sangui?:ke friends of the Greeks.—
Tho,e who framed the Treaty never cult.l hive entertained
the shadow of a hope that we should have been aide to go
so far. The Noble Baron also charged us with in:meet:-
$.7.1-3.5 and, as he contended, intentional delay in the execu-
doh of Ws work. Without wishing to object to the
Treaty to which we are parties, and without wishing to
criticise too narrowly, I must request your Lordships can-
didly to reflect on the nature of the Treaty; observe how
undefined it is in its object, how unnecessSrily uncertain in
its means of execution, and then you will be aware how
extrem4y difficult it must be to give immediate effect to
desires so vagtkely specified. Recollecting who are the
parties to the Treaty, wd adverting to the progress made
under it, your Lordships will tuit»t that in two years as
much has been done as could be reasonably eaeoted in a
won*. of this nature. But the Noble Baron says tluit we
are iadebted for that progress to the arms of Russia ; but
he is greatly naistakerr. There no doubt, not a shadow
of doubt, that but for the OCCLOrPII;2 of the war with
Turkey, the object of the Treaty would have licep more
speedily accomplished. As it is, the result of the war
w,ll not have operated on the execution of the terms of
the Treaty. The Noble Baron has given a recital of facts,
but so ineo,:re4 and confused, as to the time and manner
in which events of-cep-ell, that it is very difficult to follow
him ; but he has accused I4ioisters of not giving imme-
diate effect to the Treaty after the coqict in the bay of
Nayarin. Although the Noble Baron protesi.-e.., ;o be so
imperfectly informed, I apprehend it sufficiently notorious
to all the world, th*t.the present Ministers had nothing to
do with the affairs of Governmar;t till some time after that
event; when, too, he stigtnatises the centluct pursued
towards thf.., Gallant Officer engaged on that occasion, he
may have beard, hontever imperfectly informed, that the
present Ministers sent out au inquiry, and are not in any
way responsible for the result. As to the gallantry dis-
played at klavarin, no man ever entertained a doubt—the
doubt was as to the justification in taking such a step.
The Noble Baron has said, that when first the proposal

was made to send troops to the Morea, Ministers objected
to it. They unquestionably did so in the first instance,
and why? They objected because a plan had been already
concer'ed by three Powers, by which the same object wai,
to be attained by naval means,—by means of a naval
blockade. Were not Ministers, then, justified in object-
ing ? Did not the Convention between the English Ad
nairal and the Paella of Egypt actually effect the evacuation
of the •Morea before the arrival of the French troops?
This fact establishes that we were right in resisting the
expedition, on the ground that it was not necessary, fur
means existed of accomplishing that object independent of
any expedition. In one part of his speech the Noble
Baron has urged, in very strong terms, the necessity of
extending the new• State of Greece, so as to include the
island of Candia ; and having declared that he would with
pleasure have seen a Russian army in possession of Con-
st intinople, of course he cannot lie expected to feel any
difficulty regarding the transference of Candia. But look.
ing still to the Treaty of the 6th July as our pride, I may
:may that I consider the honour of the Crown to be con-
' cerned in the execution of the engagements of the Crown.
The Noble Lord seems to have some notion that the new
State should be of certain dimensions, and that to make
them so the island of Candia must be taken front Turkey.
Upon that part of the subject, as well as all the rest, the
Noble Baron seems to be very imperfectly informed. The
existence of any %var at all in Candia is to be attributed to
• ourselves and to our Allies ; at the date of the Treaty of
London that island was tranquil; a mountainous district,
indeed, was always in that state of insubordination
which is too frequent in Turkish provinces ; but Candia,
at the date of the Treaty of London, was as tranquil as it
had ever been under the Turks. In the execution
of the blockade it was found necessary to establish the
blockade of Candia ; and what was the effect of it ? The
Greek pirates were chive!' to take refuge with their
brethren in the mountains ; and this was the signal for ex-
cesses and the commencement of a civil war. By means
of assistance of money and men from the Provisional Go-
vernment of Greece, a war was kept up, which is not yet
entirely at an end. That was a state of hostility, as I
said, arising out of the Treaty of London and the conduct
of the Allies. The Noble Baron has also alluded to a re-
port, if possible, more inaccurate than most of those on

which he has founded his motion : he has supposed that
here is some intention to interfere with the establishment
of the form of Covet nment most desired by the Greeks,
and this design he has gratuitously attributed to that demon
that seeums to haunt his Lordship's thoughts whenever he
talks of foreign politics, and which, he imagines, has in-
fluenced us to adopt a course he holds in abhorrence. If
he allude to Austria, I can assure him that Austria has
had about as much to do with the settlement of Greece as
he has had—or not so much, indeed. I deprecate any in-
terference with the internal government of the new State ;
for Gods sake let the Prince and the people settle their
institutions for themselves. We must not force a Consti-
tution upon then, but give them full liberty to act as they
please, and to found one for themselves adapted to their
wants and wishes. On that head, therefore, the Noble
Baron need not be in any state of uneasiness. The Noble
Baron has not omitted to renew his charges, in consequence
of the opinions expressed by my Noble Friend near me (the
Duke of Wellington) and myself, upon the importance of
preserving the Turkish empire. Those opinions I have no

objection to repeat; and I therefore regret the change re-
cently effected in the relative position of that Power, as
compared with its neighbours. Ido not regret it from
any love of the Turks or of the Turkish Government—God
forbid ! I have seen and know the effect of the barbarous
rule existing there : and nobody can be more alive to the
horrors with which it abounds. But give me leave to
say, that the improvement of Turkey may be purchased
at too dear a rate ; and I still think that the conquest of
that country would be paying dear indeed for the amelio-
ration of its condition. The power of Turkey has been
considerably weakened, and it remains to be seen how it
may be affected by the change, and whether the appre-
hensions entertained are warranted. The Noble Baron

treats these opinions with ineffable contempt—as notions
sot to be tolerated in a Member of this House; but surely
he must have forotten that they are not only not new but
that they have been always entertained by this Govern-
ment. By no man have they been more strongly felt than
by a Right Hon. Gentleman for whom the Noble Baron
naturally feels the greatest regard and the highest venera-
_ _

Lion—the late Mr. Fox—who declared that- he was not
only most anxious for the independence of the Turkish
Empire, but that he was ready to guarantee its integrity.
With this authority on our side I do not think the Noble
Baron is again likely to treat us with such supreme scorn
because we profess the same opinions, not for the sake

of the Turks, but for the sake of the peace of Europe.
The Noble Baron has also drawn a bumourous picture
of the futility of our friendship and influence in the
progress and termination of the late war : upon that
point it does not become me to speak decisively ; but
with all the Noble Baron's affectation of imperfect in-
formation upon that subject, I beg to refer him to the
sources I know he possesses. Let him learn from those
sources the efficacy of our interference. If, as the Noble
Lord supposes, we had given the Sultan encouragement in
his resistance, from a jealousy of Russia, we might in•
some degree have been responsible for the issue of the war.!
But I defy him to prove that we did give him the slightest
encouragement : so much the contrary, that at the com-
mencement of hostilities, and throughout their continu-
ance, by all the means in our power (having at one period
no Minister at Constantinople) we invariably warned Tur-
key of the consequences. Even after the first campaign,
when many in this country thought that Russia had ex-
perienced a failure, we never for a moment were deceived,
nor did we vary the tone of our advice and remonstrance,
that pacific overtures should be made. If, therefore,
through obstinacy or infatuation, Turkey has been reduced
to a state not to be looked at without uneasiness by the
rest of Europe, we are not to blame and cannot be re-
sponsible. -The Noble Baron has severely characterised the
conduct of Government on this and other matters con-
nected with foreign policy ; he has said we have brought
disgrace upon the country, and lowered it in the estima-
tion of the world—that our conduct has been marked by
imbecility and pusillanimity. Give me leave to say, that
these are merely gratuitous assertions; and although they
might at one time have produced a painful effect on the
minds of your Lordships and on myself, yet I have been so
long accustomed to hear such charges during the five and
twenty years that I have bad a seat in Parliament, that
they cease to produce any impression. I have heard them
in peace and during war—when we stood alone opposed to
all the powers of Europe, and in the course:of the triumph_
ant progress of my Noble Friend, until it ended in the I
signature of a Treaty of Peace in the capital of our enemy.
Whatever change took place, still our foreign policy was
degrading and disgraceful ; and the Noble Baron must ex-
cuse me, if I attend more to his proofs than to his asser-
tions. It is surely little credible, while the Councils of
his Majesty have been followed with such signal success at
home, that abroad they should have been marked only
with imbecility. What, let me ask, is the advantage of
the vast strength and inexhaustible resources of this coun-
try, if not to enable us to pursue a course which, to a
feeble power, would be impossible. . I am greatly mis-

_ .
taken if the Noble Baron himself thinks that our conduct
has been misunderstood by the States with whom we have
had to deal, On this point, let him apply to the best
sources of information, and he will find, if he does not
already know, that Great Britain has lost nothing by the
intemperate, steady, and even course of policy she has
pursued, which has enabled her to 'preserve peace, and
still maintain the honour of the Crown. During all the
difficult negociations in which she has been engaged, the
Tdco of Europe has hardly been endangered, and never
broken; and I will venture to assert that we are most re-
spected by those Powers by whom the Noble Lord would
lead us to believe we are most despised. Above all, let us
refrain from a restless meddling policy, which would in.
evitably embroil us and all the lest of Europe in hostilities.
During his whole speech the Noble Baron seemed to feel
that hp had laid no ground for this vote, and he satisfied
himself, therefore, that it was not without a precedent.
Feeling, therefore, that it is at present impassible for me
to explain the particulars of existing arrangements, which
are promised in the Speech from the Throne speedily to be
laid upon the 'fable, I cannot correct all the errors of the
Noble Baron in the clear and decisive manner I should
r„E, to enable the Rouse to understand the real
merits of thncast, ; must entreat your Lordships not
to adopt the Resolution on conrcturres manifestly un-
founded, and on circumstances which do no not warrant
slightest suspicion. I beg leave to move the previous
question.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE supported the Reso-
lution, to
which be had net kcq.rd any real and serious ob-
jection. If the Ministers wanted to preserve the integrity
of the Turkish empire, they ought, at least, to have made
some more prompt and efficient (flint to controul the
Russians. The INl;nisters said that they had acted from a
io;:ie of mace ; but lie did rot think that the tendency of
the course senit,h they had adopted was calculated to pre-
serve peace, and had, probably, t.,_asioned the Russian
war. The Noble Secretary of State had said that his
Noble Friend was incorrect in all his statements; but he
had not adverted to any one of the points in particular,
and had shown in what respects it was incorrect. He
would mention one thing to which be was anxious to get
a distinct answer. Ile was informed that when the Rus-
sian troops were at Adrianople, a despatch was sent to the
Russian Goyernment by our Ministers, in which they

stated; that if the Rusiiins should advance and take pos-
session of Constantinople, our fleet would enter the Dar-
danelles. :Was this true? If it was, then the Ministers
had incurred the risk of a war, when it could be of no
use. The object of this resolution was, to raise a barrier
to the power of Russia in the east of Europe, and there
could be no better mode of doing it than by making
Greece a great, powerful, and independent State.
Lord Viscount MELBOURNE likewise supported the
Resolution. The Turkish empire might be considered as
completely humbled and deprived of its power, and its
total dissolution would be an easy task ; and the only pro-
per plan to form a barrier to the power of Russia was to
wake Greece a great and independent State. The Mi-
nisters did nut seem to have settled in their own minds
what course to take when the war broke out between Rus-
sia and Turkey ; but if they interfere at all, they ought,
without reference to any other power, to have declared at

once, that they would not see with patience the Turkish
power too much reduced. He agreed with his Noble
Friend, that the language of the Ministers in Parliament
had a tendency to encourage the Turks in their resistance
to Russia by the hope of support from this country, and,
therefore, instead of securing the integrity of the Empire
by peace, they published their famous manifesto, and
hurried into war with the greatest violence and obstinacy.
lie certainly was not satisfied with the past conduct of the
Ministers : but, in looking to the future, it was evident to
him that Greece ought to be made an independent and
powerful State—a Power which would be able, both by
its extent of territory and its means and situation, to main-
tain its integrity and independence. Since the Treaty of
London was made, the situation of things had altered, and
it had become necessary to unite all the States of Greece,
and so to form a power which would be a support, and
not a clog to you. He was highly gratified to hear from
the Noble Secretary, that it was not intended on our part
to interfere with the Greeks in the free choice of their
form of Government, nor throw any impediment in the
way of any improvement which they might think consis-
tent with their circumstance's and situation. But there
was no good reason for refusing to concur in this Reso-
lution, and one of the same character had been adopted by
this House, in the reign of Queen Anne, in 1707, and
was supported by the most eminent of both the Whigs
and Tories of the time.
Lord GODERICH—As the Noble Lord has alluded to
some observations which I made on the first day of the
Session, I think myself called on to make a few remarks
on the present subject. I most heartily concur in the opi-
nion of the Noble Secretary of State, that we ought not
to throw impediments in the way of the Greek people in
their choice of such a form of Government as should be
satisfactory to themselves. But when the Noble Secretary
said that our Government would throw no shackles on the
Greeks in their choice, I should have been more gratified
if the Noble Lord had said that the Government of this
country would interfere to prevent any shackles from being
imposed upon them by others. As far as he has gone,
however, I highly approve of the principle of cur abstain-
ing from interfering with the free choice of the Greeks as
to their own form of Government. But I have my suspi-
cion, that although we may throw no impediment in their
way, others may attempt to do it ; and I most earnestly
hope that Ministers will use all their influence to prevent
it ; for, after what has been said this night, I should most
extremely regret if the Greeks were to be so fettered as
not to be allowed even a shadow of choice in the matter.
I certainly think we ought to hesitate before we interfere
very earnestly in procuring improvements to he made in
the old Governments of Europe, and that it was better to
allow the people and Governments to settle these affairs
among themselves. But Greece stood in an entirely dif-
ferent situation, for theirs was a new Government, and
we would be abandoning all the principles of our own Con-
stitution, unless we were to do every thing in our power to
secure to the Greeks a free system, and thereby
show to the world that we were attached to our
own institutions because we were sensible of the benefit of
them, and not because we were born under them. This
is the more important, because I know that an opinion
prevails in some foreign countries that we submit
to our institutions as a grievance, rather than value them
as a blessing. If, by the means of England, Greece should
be settled on the basis of a Constitutional Government of
their own choice, it will not only be a great object gained
for Greece, but will highly redound to the honour and
fame of England, and highly increase the influence of our
country both in these regions and all over Europe. Ido
not see any reason why we should not pass these resolu-
tion, but I do not think it necessary to enter upon any
comments on the past, for that is not required, for the
purpose of proving the expediency of passing such a reso-
fution. Ido not mean to discuss whether the Ministers,
in their past conduct, were more or less in error, or more
or less in the right: what I look to is the future ; and I
hope the Ministers, in case any attempt should be made in
any quarter to oppose the free choice of the Greeks, will
be anxious to gain a victory over that opposition, and I
hope that the result will be favourable. Whatever scruples
we might have to put ourselves forward, and meddle with
the affairs of the old Governments of Europe, the Greeks
stand in a different situation. It is not a question of
change in the form of Government; it is a new Guile' u-
!tient to be created where there was none, or next to none,
before; and here, therefore, we can have no such scruples;
and I most anxiously hope that the expectations of a happy
result, which have been produced in my mind by the dis-
cussion of this evening, will not be disappointed.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—AIthough I am com-
pletely satisfied with the answer and explanation which has
been given by my Noble Friend (Earl of Aberdeen) near
me, I yet feel desirous to say a few words in reference to
what has fallen from the Noble Lord opposite. The Noble
Lord cannot but have observed that his Majesty, in his
Speech delivered by the Royal Commissioners on the first
day of the Session, states that he had concerted measures
with the other Allied Powers for the execution of the
Treaty of the 27th July, for the pacification of Greece ;
and his Majesty there promises that he will shortly lay
before your Lordships the documents, which will afford
you most ample information as to these transactions. But
what does the Noble Lard say ? He says to your Lord-
ships, don't wait for the production of the document which
his Majesty has promised to lay before you, but, before you
are in possession of the requisite information come forward
at once with the plan stated in this Resolution, and declare
that nothing else than the adoption'of that plan will satisfy
the Greeks, or be consistent with the honour and dignity of
this country. And he calls on your Lordships to do this
without either he or your Lordships having any information
whether the measures for the pacification of Greece have
not been already formal :7 concerted and finally settled on
another basin. Is it consistent to pass such a resolution
without knowing whether the matter has not been al-
ready finally arranged, so as to make it impossible to
alter it? A Noble Viscount on the other side said that a
resolution of this kind had passed in 1707. If that was
the case, it was a most absurd and ridiculous proceeding ;
and I know of nothing to match it, except the resolution
which has been proposed this night. But the Noble Lord
dwells on his want of confidence in his Majesty's Mini-
sters, and especially in me; and in order to lay some
shadow of a ground for his resolution, he takes statements
which he has found in newspapers, and argues upon them
with an utter contempt of dates. My Noble Friend
(Melbourne), if he will allow me to call him so, on the
second bench, has said that we encouraged the Turks in
their resistance to the Russian propositions for peace, and
to issue the Hatti Sheriff or Manifesto, or whatever it
might be called, which showed their determination not to
yield till the last extremity. But the Noble Viscount forgets
that that Sheriff was prepared, if not published, before Par-

- .
lisment :net, and long before I was in office ; and neither by
direct recommendation to themselves, nor by the language
which we held in Parliament, nor by the language of his
Majesty's £peech, did we encourage the Turks to resist.
The HattiSheriff„though not published immediately when
prepared, was known at Elsineur before the late Ministers
went out of office. To blame Ministers for that, there-
fore, is what I must really call too bad.—( A laugh.)—
With respect to the circumstances that preceded the battle
of Navarin, and the transactions relative to the blockade
of the Dardinelles, and some other matters to which the
Noble Lord had referred, I really had no more to do with
them than I had to do with the Hatti Sheriff. The in-
structions to the Admiral, and those relative to the
blockade, were given by the former Government; and I
think that in the latter respect they acted rightly. It
was not to be a belligerent blockade, but merely such a
one as circumstmees might require, in order to prevent
the extension and continuance of barbarous hostilities. I
do not reproach the Noble Lord for his want of confidence
iu the Ministers, but I must inform him that the Ministers
;vete not the originators of these measures and transac-
tions, but only followed the example of others. Hut
the Noble Lord has accused rue with reference to a variety
of transactions, which it is utterly impossible to discuss at
present with effect, because the proper documents and
papers have not been laid before your Lordships. I can
at present only tell him that the documents, when laid on
the table, will show, that with respect to every one of
these transactions the Noble Lord is completely mistaken ;
but as these papers are not before your Lordships, I will
refrain from entering into a detailed discussion of their
contents. The Noble Lord blames us for not having suf-
ficiently urged on the Turks the folly of resistance to
Russia, and for thereby having enc mraged the Russian war.
But he should have looked at the dates before he made
the charge. The Ambassadors of the three Powers had

quitted Constantinople in the month of September, and I
did not come into office till January, and we had no op-
portunity of communicating directly with the Turkish
Government. But then we had the means of communi-
cating with them through the Medium of another Power,
and we represented to them the injury which they had
done to themselves by issuing the Hatti Sheriff, and
strongly advised them not to suffer matters to come to
extremities, so that it was not our fault that the war took
place. This advice we repeated to the Ottoman Govern-
ment in the course of the war, for I never anticipated any
other termination of it, than that which has actually hap-
pened, and which, I think, ought to have been produced
in the fist campaign I always urged the Porte to make
the concessions which the Russians had a right to demand
by treaty, and by so doing, to preserve peace, as they
were sure to be losers by the war. But then, says the
Noble Lord, " Why did you not put yourselves in arms to
prevent it?" Now I firmly believe that, notwithstanding
the distresses of the nation, temporary as I hope they will
be, the country was never i❑ such a high state of prepa-
ration for war at any period within my memory as at
the present moment. Never, in my time, was its credit
higher, or its power and efficiency for foreign war
greater—not even at the period when we were con•
tending against the world in arms.—(Hear, hear.).—
It was never in a state of superior• preparation for
war; but when the Noble Lord asks why we did not
take arms to prevent the Russian war, then came
the questions, would it be a just war: I say it
would not. Would it be a politic war ?—I again answer
no. We were at the time engaged in a treaty with Rus-
sia and France for an object which we have now in a great
measure attained, and it would have been impolitic at that
time to have given up the advantage of the Russian co-
operation. It would have also been a breach of faith,
more especially as the Russian Government always pro-
mised to make peace at the first possible opportunity, Our
taking arms against Russia would have revoked the whole
arrangement; and it would have been obviously unwise,
impolitic, and unjust, to have done so. Notwithstanding
the disasters which the Porte has by its perverseness,
brought upon itself, it still exists as a power—and it may
yet be so reinstated as to be able to act its part in the
polities of Europe. Then the Noble Lord blames us for
the measures which we adopted with respect to the
Greeks, particularly with not having engaged in active
hostility with the Turks, in order to effect the object of
Grecian pacification. But the principle of avoiding active
hostility was the very one to which we and our predeces-
sors most strongly adhered. It was the principle most
strongly recommended by every motive of justice and
expediency, and it was the principle on which the Treaty
for the pacification of Greece was founded—that we should
not mix ourselves with the belligerents. It was for
that reason that his Majesty, in his speech, called the
battle of Navarin an unfortunate or untoward event;
for that battle was an act of hostility that might have
had a very unhappy effect on the ulterior measures for
the pacification. But then, it was asked, why we had
at first opposed, and then permitted, the sending of the
French troops to the Morea ? It is true that the Gallant
Admiral had made an arrangement for the evacuation of
the Morea by the troops of the Paella of Egypt ; but then
that was not known when the French troops were sent.
I am, perhaps, more to blame than the Noble Lord oppo-
site for my want of recollection of dates, but the papers
when they were produced would explain why the French
troops were sent to the Morea, and why they were not
sent sooner. He at one time proposed a blockade; but
that did not take place, and then troops were sent. But I
say, that in the whole of these transactions we were guided
by the spirit of the Treaty, and the spirit and object of the
Treaty was the pacification of Greece, and not the making

a great State of it, and that object had now nearly reacheri
a final settlement. Then the Noble Lord says, Oh, but
the Greeks ought to have the island of Candia. The
island of Candia, however, was not included in the Treaty,
and the Noble Lord does not know if it can be included
now. He says you may now mate a new arrangement ;
but he does not know but the affair may be already settled
on the old terms. I shall say nothing about that at pre-
sent ; but I do say that if Candid is to be given to the
Greeks, it must be first conquered from the Turks, and
we are not bound by the Treaty to conquer any thing for
the Greeks. By that Treaty we made an arrangement
for the pacification of Greece, but it was not contemplated
to include Candia in the Grecian territory. My Noble
Friend near me has really given as complete an answer to
all the objections of the Noble Lord as can be given at pre-
sent, in the absence of the documents ; and I really hope
that the Noble Lord himself will see the propriety of with-
drawing his Resolution.
Lord HOLLAND—Perhaps, my Lords, I shall not
give your Lordships the trouble of a division ; but I will
not withdraw the Resolution, as lam anxious that it
should be entered on the Journals of this House. Now,
one word as to what the Noble Secretary of State says
about the sentiments of Mr. Fox on the subject of the
Turks. I really do not know from whom the Noble Earl
has his information, when he says that Mr. Fox wished
to keep up the power of the Turks, and even expressed an
opinion that the integity of their power ought to be gua-
ranteed by the country. I had an opportunity of being
well acquainted with the sentiments of Mr. Fox ; and I
know, that both as a citizen of the world, and as one who
felt the deepest in the glory and honour of this country--
and no man valued both more highly—he was most anxious
that the Turks should be driven out of Europe. That
Mr. Fox may not have said something to warrant
the Noble Secretary's inference, on some particular emer-
gency or contingency, is more than I can take upon my-
self to say ; but, most certainly, his general sentiments
were such as I have stated them to have been. Does the
Noble Earl pretend to know what were Mr. Fox's opi-
nions better than I do? I know not from what document

the Noble Earl derived his information ; perhaps it may
have been from some printed speech of Mr. Fox; but
if it was from a speech, then I say that the speech
has not been correctly reported. It certainly is not
likely that Mr. Fox should have taken the part of the
Ottoman Empire; and I should doubt whether there
is any Statesman, except a French one, who does not
consider it as highly desirable that the Turks were out of
Europe. The Noble Duke says that he was not in office
when the instructions were given which led to the battle
of Navarin, and endeavours to explain his conduct as to
the blockade of the Dardanelles; but I can hardly think
that the Noble Duke has been quite accurate. It is true
that a proposal was made to blockade the Dardanelles, and
we deferred our decision on the point, but we did not ob-
ject to it. The Noble Duke says, and says truly, that
dates are great things. But the gist of my argument has
little to do with dates. To be sure I cannot produce do-
cuments and despatches to show that the Ministers encou-
raged the Turks to refuse coining to terms with the Rus-
sians; but what I contended was, that the whole tenour
and spirit of the language of his Majesty's Speech, and of
the language of the Ministers in Parliament, were calcu-
lated to buoy up the hopes of the Turks. and led them to
take that obstinate and perverse course which has led to
their present state of degraded humiliation. The Turks
manifestly expected that if they resisted we would shield
them from destruction. The Noble Duke says that in-
structions to Admiral Codrington were given by the late
Ministers, but it was not they who spoke of the Turks as
our ancient ally,—and called the battle of Navarin an un -
toward event. Then the Noble Duke found that he could
not act as he was bound by the Treaty, but I say that in
consequence of the breaking out of the war between
Russia and Turkey, we had the liberty of withdrawing
from the Treaty if we thought p►oper. We were bound
only as long as the Russians waived their r7ghts as belli-
gerents to blockade the Dardanelles ; but they did not
waive them. The Noble Duke says, that to pass a Re-
solution cf this kind was absurd and ridiculous, because,
for any thing I know, that matter may have been already
arranged on a different basis ; but I am willing to share
in the ridicule and absurdity, which was just as well
merited in 1707, by Lord Nottingham, at the head of the
Tories, who proposed a Resolution of much the same de-
uription, which was supported by Lord Somers, and all
the most eminent of the Whigs of that day. It was a
Resolution for an address to the Queen about excluding

the Pretender from certain territories on the Continent of
Europe, particularly from the dominion of the Duke
of Loraine. The same arguments were then used
against ft as were now used by the Noble Duke.
The Queen 'had no right nor means to compel the
other Powers to exclude the Pretender ; and it was
inconsistent with the dignity of Parliament, and
the respect due to her Majesty, to address her to do an act
which she had no power to enforce. The Lords, how-
ever, over-ruled the objection, and the Resolution was
passed ; so that such a Resolution, however ridiculous and
absurd in the Noble Duke's estimation, is at least awt un-
precedented. As to the sending out the French troops to
the Morea, the Noble Duke says that I was wrong as to
dates, but my argument did not depend on dates. The
Noble Duke had at first opposed the expedition, and then
did he afterwards agree to their being sent, and then sti.
pulate that they should not act beyond the limits of the
Morel.. As to Candid, I understand it was at one time in
contemplation that a line from the Gulf of Volo to Arta
should he the limits of the Greek territory ; and I after-
wards heard of another arrangement, and the one might
be as good as the other ; but I do say, that Candia ought to
belong to the Greek State. Before we can gibe that island
to the Greeks, says the Noble Duke, we must conquer it
frosts the Turks, and we are not bound to coeu for the

. _
Greeks.. The Noble Duke and I AM Neither of us young ~
men, but I think we 'nay yet live to see 'tile day , when
Candia shall be no longer in the poWer of the Turks.'
if the three Powers were •to make the proposal fur
i s cession to the Greek territory, I do not belies',
t'iat it would be difficult, in the actual situation of the
Turks, to procure their consent to give it up without the '''
, ccessity of going to war. The Noble Duke says that the
'oject of the Treaty was the pacification of Greece. True ;
1-at I say that Greece will not be pacified without inde-
1, aulence ; and, with independence, the means and the
p ,wer to support it. lam not sorry that I have occasion
ti, bring forward this discussion; and I am glad that the
Ministers, since they will not agree to the Resolution, have
taken the method of " the previous question" to get rid of
it—a method which, I believe, in Parliamentary practice,
implies that a proposition ought not to be entertained, not
because it is not true in itself, but because it contains
opinions which, at the particular time, it is not expedient
to express. I hope his Majesty's Ministers will adopt
Ruch measures as will make Greece great abroad and happy
at home, and by so doing increase the fame, honour, and
influence of their own country, not only among the Greeks,
but among all the nations of Europe—a consequence
which must follow if, through the means of this country,
the great wock should be consolidated.

The Earl of ABERDEEN, in explanation, stated that
he did not derive his intelligence as to the opinion of Mr.
Fox from a speech, but from an official answer written by
himself to a dispatch from Talleyrand, in 1806. Talley-
rand had said, that it ought to be a great object of policy
to preserve the integrity of the Turkish empire, and even
to guarantee it—to which Mr. Fox assented.
The previous question was then put and carried ; after
which the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMAIONS—(LAST NIGHT.)
ILLUSORY APPOINTMENTS.
On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GICNERAL, the Bill to '
amend Illusory Appointments was read a first time and
ordered to be printed.
The Learned MEtraEa then brought in the other Bills,
of which he gave notice last evening, which were severally
read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
THE LINCOLNSHIRE PETITION.
Colonel SIBTHORPE presented a petition from the
city of Lincoln. The Honourable Member said, that the
petition was most numerously and respectably signed and
it complained that so little attention was paid by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers to the distresses of the country, sad prayed,
before the House went into a Committee of Supply,
it would cause a moat rigid inquiry to be made into the
burdens of the people. The petition also prayed for a '
reduction of the Assessed Taxes. The gallant Ca-
lonel, after going into a statement of the general-
distress that existed, concluded by saying the petition had
his hearty support. He hoped every attention would be
paid to this subject by the public Press.--(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. FA ZAKERLEY, the
petition was seconded, and ordered to be printed.

TRADE WITH INDIA.
Sir BYAM MARTIN presented a petition from Ply=
mouth, against the East India Company's Charter.
Mr. STANLEY presented a similar petition from the
merchants, manufacturers, and others, of the town of
Manchester. The petition was most numerously and re-
spectably signed.