The Sun.
London, England, 1839-05-03 00:00:00

OF ACCHTERARDER.
Lord BROUGHAM, in continuation from our First Edition
of yesterday.
The case he was putting did not interfere with a patron's
right of choice at all. It was a much as to say the con-
gregation had no right of choice whatever. If that were
admitted then it would be as much as to say, the whole is
vested in you, the patron, but only upon this little or.e
condition—that you, the patron, shall choose the exact
person we would have chosen. If so, who was the chooser?
Why, for his own part, he would much rather be the con-
gregation in that case than the patron. It was an entire
mistake to say that this would interfere with the
rights of the patron, and upon this he could
not help looking back to the ancient times of the Scottish
Church, and picturing to his own mind the degree of con-
tempt with which a most venerable relative of his own,
who led the General Assembly of Scotland, one of the
greatest statesmen and one of the most accomplished
orators that this or any other country had ever seen—he
meant Dr. Roberts—if such an argument as that had been
offered to him on the part of the Presbytery, in the face of
their own error, he could not help supposing what his
manly and. practical understanding would have induced
him to say to the doctrine, that we don't mean to in-
terfere with the patron or with the people, but we only
say that if any person is chosen whom the congregation
will not accept, that choice shall go for nothing. What
also would his venerable colleague, Dr. Erskine, have
said to a proposition so extravagantly wild, that was di-
rectly calculated to set aside the rights of the patron?
Aye, or even his venerable friend, the late Sir Harry Mon-
crief—a man of as honest a mind, and of as sound
and sagacious an understanding as any man who ever
lived—he doubted whether any such subtilties would
have been ventured to have been offered in his time.
If they had they would have been blown away out of any
Court, Session, Assembly, or any dark aisle of any
Church into which they might have been introduced, by
him in less than a fraction of time, for if ever there was a
man who despised subtilties it was Sir Harry Moncrief. He
would not have hesitated to say—never try to do indirectly
what you dare not do openly and avowedly, or never seek
_am,— to escape or to shelter yourselves from the natural and
A meeting of gentleman interested in promoting railway just consequences of your own proceeding upon mysterious,
communication between London and Dublin, and friendly to vague, and general expressions, subtilties, and sophistries,
the Holyhead line, took place yesterday at the Thatched
House Tavern, St. James's-street. Among the gentlemen pre-
which, as they never for a moment can benefit yourselves,
sent were Captain Dundas, AL P. , Mr. George Evans. M.P., never can deceive others. Ho was morally certain these
Mr. C. D. 0. Sephson, M.P, Mr. TO. st.i
M.P.,
M.P., Air, would have geed the expressions tilled by those venerable
Lefroy, M.P., Mr. Power, /3/.P., Mr. /3. Wilbraham, Heads of the Church againstany each arguments.
Sir Wm. Somerville, Bart., M.P., Mr. W. S. Darien, M P..
1
- Then,
again, to make the thing still more- absurd, it was
Mr. J. Grattan, M.P., Sir D. Norris, Mr. Bermingham, Mr. said the congregation had a right to say, We don't
Stephenson, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Uniacke, Mayor of Chester, like this man ; we don't like him worse than any
&c., &c. At two o'clock Mr. 0. Stanley was called to the other man, but we would prefer any other man to
chair, and briefly stated the objects of the meeting. It was to him. \Veil, but would they even be benefited by any such
exhibit to the meeting the plans and sections taken by Mr.
Stephenson on the line of railroad between Chester and doctrine ? The moment they said they preferred any man
Holyhead. They were all probably aware of the Rep
ort to A, if B was presented they would have still the same
which had emanated from the Irish Railroad Commis- right to use the very same expression as to B;
sioners, and Mr. Vignolles had been al owed at the ex- might run through the whole alpha.
panse and so they
of the Government, to make a Report of the line from bet, until they arrived at Z. The patron had a
London to Port Dynl'aen, in Wales, and to have his plans and right to appoint A. The Presbytery sustained the
sections published. The parties concerned in the other line, presentation, and the patron was not called upon to say
felt the injustice of the proceedings which debarred them from why he chose that person, he being a perfectly qualified
pointing out all the advantages of an infinitely more practicable person. Well but then, on the other hand, it was said.
and cheaper line. On these grounds it had been judged cx- the people must be allowed to say whether they liked him
pedient to lay the two competing lines before the public, and or not. The two things could not coexist unless it were
allow them to judge which was most entitled to their confidence said they had a joint choice ; and that had been said for
and support. Ile wished to make a few observations on the
comparative merits of the lines between Wolverhampton
and the first time by the Act of the General Assethbly' in
s
Port Dynllaen, between Chester and Holyhead, and by Liver -
1834, and by their acting upon that Act in the present
,
pool. No one could deny the importance of facilitating the day in the prise
nt case. Then it was said, they would
Communication between London and Dublin. They not exercise this veto, or as it was construed, right ofdissent,
already had had a line made to Liverpool, but they capriciously but conscientiously. Well, but then of the pa-
still had 130 miles of sea to cross, and from the tron the same thing was to be said. The law did not protect
peculiarities of the tides and the weather, the passage him in a capricious or unconscientious exercise of the
was very uncertain. From returns which had been moved by trust which he held for the Church. He was quite sure
him in the House of Commons the other day, it appeared that that no parties would be found to present a clerk to the
once every week the mails were obliged to be removed from the Bishop here, or a person to the Presbytery of ScotlanJ,
pier of Liverpool outside the bar of the Mersey. During the and say that his reason for presenting that man was be-
last six months the tender had been used 24 times, or one day cause he was his pot companton—because he was his
in seven; when the weather was moderate and the tide suitable,
it took an hour and a quarter to convey the mails outside the brother in the chase, or because he was the brother of aThese were all bad motives, and no man could
bar, but when there was a gale of wind, and they were obliged mistress. •
to wait for the tide, the operation occupied double the time, be ...Rowed in policy to act upon them. No more was it
and sometimes more, and they were also obliged to transfer the to be expected that the people who dissentedtheupont
thepassengers in boats to the middle of the Mersey, occasioning occasion of a presentation would avow that
n-
great trouble and inconvenience. The route from llolyhead to dividual was too strict in his doctrines—of a high
Dublin was shortest. From London to Kingstown by Liverpoolwas moral- character—that he preached the word of God
200 miles, and 130 by sea, making 340 in the whole. By Port righteously, in season, and out of season, as his Great
Dynllaen, according to the Commissioners' plan, it was 272 Master had ordered him—that he refused access to the Ea-
miles, and 70 by sea, making 342. By Hnlvhead it was 272
miles by land, or if the extension line by Tamworth was se-
lected, 262, making in all 325, consequently, even taking it by —or
c r el r. ebnetes
because
e those
he
e whomwo would d he
catechise thought
the unworthypeepl
eo fasadtmeitshsieoinr
the longest route, it was five miles shorter than by Liverpool,
and seven miles shorter than by Port Dynllaen ; according to duties; and congregations would givethose. reasons
tfher,
not liking a man, but still they Wrightit,i. exist. And is
the plan then upon the table, there were only 85 miles of the Act allowed the greatest scope for anything of that descrip-
Holyhead line to make, and by Port Dynllaen and Wolver- tion—bccause by it rio reasons were required to be given.
hampton, the distance to be made was one hundred and Things were therefore placed on a very different footing
forty.six miles, consequently, there were sixty-one lines in that respect to what they were by the Act of 16N9—that
less to make if the Chester line was
adopted. Act had some consistency in it. It said if any man had
He would now call their attention to the mein which would any objection to the party presented,_ let him state that
result from adopting the Holyhead line. In thatgcase the steam
packet stations at Liverpool and Milford would be useless. At objection to the Church, anedwelyetwtithheaCllheuercehessdietcvidfeer urpeottn-
it. The Act of 1834 did .
present the expenditure at these stations above the receipts was 34,0001. per annum, and that did not include the original So
Assembly LeiLei r, g
had assigned.
been
cost of steam-packets, which was about 26 or 30,0001. each. Thetphreeysethatadretur!enruosefdtliLthGiseurnerainl
Holyhead station at present involved an expenditure of 24,9511. If
fiathte
without having assigned any reason, then that would
per annum. For that sum two voyages were performed from have presented a different sort of case. It would
Holyhead to Kingstown, and two back. With a better class have made the case a great deal more difficult, and
of packets they could reduce the average period of the passage caused the argument and decision to turn upon an-
from seven to six hours, or even less, and at the same expense, other point. But a general refusal, without assigning
so that the Holyhead station for that sum could perform all any reason would not have been legal on the part of the
for which the country was now paying 79,0001. per annum. Assembly any more than it would be legal on the part
The communication by that route could be made in about of the Bishops to say non ionius—they must point out a
sixteen hours, while by Liverpool it was seldom made under
twenty-three. The meeting would recollect that Parliament had Presbytery reason. The had not here sheltered them-
under its consideration the plan of a line from Dublin to Cork, selves under any such generality. They had said they
and it was most important that a direct communication should had refused a perfectly well qualified person
because a
he made between Dublin and London, in order to perfect the majority of the male heads of families in the parish dis-
line of communication with America. He would now leave it seated without any reason, and that they were bound by
to the gentlemen present to take whatever steps they might that dissent. The Act of the General Assembly speci-
deem expedient. fled the majority of the male heads of families. Why the
Mr. UNIACKE, the Mayor of Chester, having been instill- male heads ? Was there nothing to be said in reference to any
mental in callinwthe meeting, felt bound to confirm the state- other branches of families except the male heads upon a
ments of their Hon. Chairman. It was important that the matter of salvation ? Why we were living under a Chi is-
merits of the line to Holyhead should he placed before the tian, not under a Mahomedan law. Supposing there
public before the discussion came on in the House of Commons
on the subject of railway communication between Dublin and were three or four single women, or three or four widows.I
the parish, was this appointment to be considered as
London. He would say nothing with regard to the engineer-
H
ing advantages of the line, but he would call their attention to a matter of perfect indifference to them. Were they to
question ? The
the considerations which should influence them in fixing the be regarded as having no interest in the q
main line of communication between the two kingdoms, General Assembly said those persons should have just
the importance of giving a mode of transit and securing a direct whoever the male heads chose to impose upon them.
rommunication with the great manufacturing districts of Lan- Beads of families I But v..hy not a respectable and well
cashire, Yorkshire, and Staffordshire. The other point to informed journeyman? Why not a well-informed and
which he should call their attention was, that from the confi- learned scholar, being a young man—perhaps with
deuce reposed in Mr. Stephenson, and from the favourable na-
ture of the country, the greater portion of the capital would be No ; it was only to be the male heads of families.
subscribed by private enterprise. Mr. Stephenson was pre-
That might be right or it might be wrong. It certainly
mation in his power.
sent and would, he was satisfied, give the meeting every infer-
was not self-evidently right. It did not follow as neces-
Mr. STEPHENSON having been called upon said he was not sary from the nature of Church discipline ; it did not fol-
aware that he could add anything to what he had stated in his low as necessary from the call, and it might be a capri-
detailed report. The sections of the two lines were before cious decision
come to by the Assembly; and that led him
them, and hal been taken as accurately as possible; they to the next inquiry, that if the General Assembly had the
showed the exact character of both lines. One was extremely power to impose this, had they not the power to make a
practicable, while the other he could state without hesitation, totally dlfferent appointment altogether ? Could any one
could not be made.—( Hear, hear.) lie denied that they suppose there was anything in the existing law to justify
could ever form a tunnel through the summit level—he denied a totally different scheme ? Supposing it had been
that they could do it, but even if they did the other part of the provided that the person presented should be acceptable
line was bad, and twenty miles would be lost from the
to the Synod, which was a very important body ; or aup-
fall, or at least s 3 much power would be lost as would be
it had been provided he should be acceptable to
equal to twenty miles. The line along the coast was much
posingand chosen by, or not rejected. by, a Commissioner whom
more cultivated, more densely populated, and opened extensive
the Assembly had appointed to make the choice, as in for-
coal-fields and it appeared to him that coal would be sent to
Ireland cheaper by that line than any other. mer times there had been an instance of. They might
As
the Me GENTLEMAN
bridge asked Mr. Stephenson how he intended to also have gone on to say—and for anything he (the Noble
crosnai ?
and Learned Lord) knw it would be the next thing the
i\ r. STEPHENSON said he proposed to send the carriages Assembly did, if their Lordships allowed them to do this—
across one at a time by horse-power, so as to have the weight of the provided he should be agreeable to the Pecsbytery of the
bounds. Nov, was it possible for them to do that ?
carriages divided over the whole length of the bridge. The
bridge was e engines Why, it was ro far from being impossible, that they had
and carriages to pass over at once, bat there would be &waving done it already. There was the Act of 1596, of the
motion created by so much weight going over at the same time.
Legislature in whichy it was said that "none seek prefer-
Stephenson In an-wer • • to another question it was stated by Mr.
merit without the advice of the Presbytery ;" and that ,
Stephenson that ten minutes to a quarter o f an hour would
for the
delay occasioned by sending the carriages over singly a very short time the law of the land in Scotland.
be
might
hits had also considered the formation of another bridge about a law had been abrogated long ago. The Legislature
That