The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-22 00:00:00

LONDON, W EDNES DAY EVENING, DECEMBER 22,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, DEC. 21.

In the absence of the Lord Chancellor, Lord Wywroao
ook his seat on the Woolsack at Ilalf.past Five o'clock.

NEGRO SLAVERY.

Anti-slavery petitions were presented by Earl Grey,
Earl Melbourne, Lord Farnhatn, and the Mirquis of
Lansdowne.

Earl GREY presented a petition from Tauuton, praying
for a repeal of the Assessed Taxes. The Noble Earl also
presented several petitions from different parts of Scot-
land, praying for improvement in the elections for Scotch
burghs.
On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, an
humble address was ordered to be presented to his Majesty,
praying that he would be pleased to order the Second Re-
port of the Commissioners, directed to inquire iuto the
Law of Real Property, to be laid before their Lordships.
Lord MELBOURNE presented a petition from Abing,
don, praying for the abolition of the Poor Laws, also one
from Pool., praying for Parliamentary Reform.
Sir A. GRANT and others from the Commons brought
up the Consolidated Fund Bill, which on the motion of
Earl GREY was read a first time.

The Nontr EARL, in moving its first reading, gave notice
of a motion for to-morrow evening to suspend the standing
orders, 126, 156, for the purpow of expediting the passing
of this Bill.

Lord FARNHAM presented a petition from Alex*
Parry,
.complaining of free trade.
Etrl STANHOPE presented a petition from Spalding
for a repeal on the duty on coals carried coastwise ; also a
petition from the Journeymen Paper-makers of Somerset,
praying for the imposition of a duty on new machinery.

Lord TEYNHAM gave notice of his intention to teove
for leave to bring in a Bill, on Tuesday, the 15th of April,
for the Commutation of the Tithes on Hopr.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions
from Aberdeen, Glasgow, Stirling, and different parts of
Scotland, prayint for Parliamentary Reform.
The Noice MARQUIS also presented a petition from
St. Nicholas, Galway, preying their Lordships to review
the Parliamentary grant for education in Ireland.—
The Noble Marquis also presented a petition from the poor
of Liverpool, praying for the removal of their disabilities ;
also a petition from the petitioners of Ardagb, praying for
their Lordships to Pied some employment for the
unetnployed workmen. The Patents Continuation
Bill went through a Committee, and was ordered to be
read a third time to-morrow.

Lord WYNFORD left the.Woolsack for the purpose of
intimating to their Lordships his intention of bringing in a
Bill for the better prevention of frauds by debtors lying in
prison or absconding. He always thought that it was
poor satisfaction to a creditor to imprison the person of his
debtor; hut as it was still resorted to, and as the practice
still remained part of the law of the land, it only remained
for him to suggest the beet modification of it that cir-
cumstances permitted. The late Sir S. Homily made a
great effort to rid the country of a piece of legislation
which reflected no credit upon the country. That distin-
guished individual failed in his attempt at improvement,
and after such a failure, ho (Lord NV.) could scarcely hope
for success. The object which Sir Samuel Rotnilly had in
view was to extend writs of execution as that they should
reach teal property. It was of course well known to their
Lordships, that any debtor confined under execution issuing
from the Court of King's Bench and Common Pleas, might,
if he could give security to the marshal of the prison,estne
the inconvenience of confinement altogether—might enjoy
the advantages of a good house, and an agreeable situation,
free from all the restraints and inconvenience of confine-
ment. Actions for escape could only be maintained where
the debtor failed to return before the action was brought.
Now the debtors of whom he was speaking, left the rules of
the prison after the offices were shut, and returned before
they opened, and by these means enjoyed a freedom which
rendered their nominal imprisonment perfectly nugatory.
A number of persons confined under those circumstances
took houses in different parts, and eventually obtained credit
from different tradesmen on the characters they gave each
other. Ile need not tell the House that the whole of this
scheme was concocted and carried on for the purposes of
fraud. and the creditors never hail a shilling of the some
due to them. This and other facts, which he could detail
to them, and which admitted of the most satisfactory
proofs, would spew that many persons of considerable pro.
party contracted debts, and remained in prison without
paying their creditors a farthing. So far bark as the
reign of George IL, en Act was passed for the purpose of
authorising the Courts to assign the property of debtors
for the payment of their creditors, but unfortunately the
Act did not extend beyond debts of 1001. What he pro-
posed to de was, to extend that Act to all debts of what
amount soever. If the Legislature agreed to that, he
would venture to say that it would have the immediate
effect of relieving the prisons of many who were now liv-
ing a life of idleness and luxury—living most luxutionsly
upon the proceeds of property which ought to be applied
to the payment of their debts. The effect of the present
system was 'whin less than to create an English colony
on the opposite cost. In cases of an application for out-
lawry, the Judge might require bail for the appearance of
the debtor. It was provided by an Act of Elia ibeth, in
whose reign many good laws were passed, that, in order
to perfect an outlawry, there must be a proclamation if
it were defective, in order that the debtor might apply to
set aside the debt ; but in those cases where the outlawry
was complete, the debtor ought to be compelled to give
bail for the full satisfaction of the debts and caste, or else
be subjected to all the pains and penalties necessarily at-
tendant upon a proceeding of outlawry. One of the
alterations which he meant to introduce was, to deprive
debtors of the power of coming in to reverse their out-
lawries on the ground of their not having been within the
four seas at the time of such writs of outlawry being
issued. However the expediency of reaching life inte-
rests might he just, he
.saw no reason why inheritances
should be made snore sul.ject to creditors than at present :
all that he thought the interest of the creditors demanded
was, that the property of the debtor during his life
should be made available for the purposes of justice. The
Noble Lord then brought in a Nil for. the better pre-
vention of Frauds by Debtors, whether in prison or ab-
sconding.
The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be
printed.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Dec. 21.

-- -
Mr. Johnson, from the office of the Chief Secretary of
Ireland, presented the contract prices for butter, flour, and
malt.
Petitions praying for the abolition of Negro Slavery,
were presented from Lancaster and Stockport ; by Mr.
LIEFROT from Longford; and by Mr. Musts from nume-
rous places in Scotland.
BOROUGH OF RYE.
Mr. CRADOCK presented a petition, to which he
wished to call the particular attention of the House, as
he considered it involved a case of breach of privilege. The
petition to which he referred was from Rye, complain-
ing of the improper conduct of the returning officer of
that borough, who had taken upon himself the responsi-
bility of returning Members, who had been elected in direct
violation of the resolution of the ComMittee of last May.
lie knew that that resolution hail been since rescinded
by the decision of another Committee, but it was in force,
and consequently part of the law of the land, at the time
of the last Rye election. He therefore thought the con-
duct of the returning officer should be brought under the
consideration of the House.
The SPEAKER said that if this were an election peti-
tion the lion. Member must be aware it was now too late
to present it; and if not, he thought it quite unnecessary
so to do, as there was a petition already before the House
from Colonel (le Lacy Evans and Benjamin Smith,
Esq., complaining of an undue election, which
petition also called the attention of the House to the con-
duct of the returning officer. The House, therefore, by
giving any opinion on this petition, would prejudge the
merits of the one that mast go before a Committee.
Mr. CRADOCK, 'after a few observations, withdrew
the petition.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Bristol, praying
for the extension of the Local Courts of Judicature to
that city.
After a few words from Mr. 11. Davis the petition
was ordered to lie on the table.
THE MIDDLESEX PETITION.

Mr. HUMS presented the petition of the freeholders of
Middlesex, which had been agreed to'un►ni►nousl' at the
Mermaid Tavern, flakier; arid which prayed fur ra

trenehment, reform, economy, and the vote by ballot.
The meeting had been unanimous in its demand for the
reduction of the expenditure of the country, for the refor-
mation of the poor laws, and au alteration in the tithe
collection, But at the sante time that it prayed the
House to look into these things, it expressed its opinion
that it was hopeless to expect any amendment till there
was a Reform in Parliament, such as should give a' voice
to every one who paid rates and taxes in the country ; nor
did the meeting believe that even this mode would prove
effectual unless the vote by ballot was added to it. With
respect to the retrenchment that was prayed, he had long
thought that without that taking place on a most exten-
sive scale, it would be impossible for the country to re
trieve itself from the difficulties of its present situation.
He had seen and heard of nothing that had tended to
change his opinion on this point. He was likewise bound
to state before ha sat down, that the meeting had been un-
anitnous►y of opinion, that it was impolitic in the highest
degree to add to the present military force of the country ;
and that the alteration of the corn laws and the reduction
of the expenditure would have been much more effective
in checking the discontent of the people.
Sir G. WARRENDER said. that be was happy to be
able to agree with what hail fallen from the lion. Gen-
tleman touching retrenchment and economy, and he
would take that opportunity of saying that the symptoms
already manifested on this print by the present Govern-
ment were such as to have gained his confidence. He was
fhetuore desirous of saying thus much, because he wished
A 4 deprecate the advicetliat.had been offees4 to the Govern-
Merit by the other side of the House.—(Hear, hear.)—He
certainly had perceived symptoms that had made him
think that it might be necessary for the Government to
resort to the opinion of tire people—(Hear, bear)—and
should that be the case, it was only by a wise perseverance
in measures of economy that they could hope to re-
ceive the sympathy of a loyal, but distressed people.
--(Hear, hear, hear.)—With respect to Reform it.
Parliament, however, he could not entirely agree with
the Hon. Gentleman ; nor did he think that these were
times for the military force of the country to be less effec-
tive than it had been. When the Edinburgh petition
should be presented to the House, he would undertake to
show that the majority of the respetsble and educated
classes of that city were not friendly to Reform
in Parliament; and he believed that such was generally
the case throughout the country. With respect to the
advantages to be derived from it, it was only necessary to
look at what had taken place at Liverpool, where, though
the elective franchise was extensive, the most barefaced cor-
ruption had been carried on, and to Preston, where ti
member of that family which lad served the country for
ages, and whose acts were mixed with past recollections,
had been deprived of his seat. .

Mr. WARBURTON was not surprised that the llon.
Gentleman, who • bad last spoken, should be an advocate
for a large standing army ; for if his other other opinions
were to he adopted by the Government, they could only he
enforced at the point of the bayonet, and no longer by the
law of the land. With respect to what bad taken place at
Liverpool, he thought that the lion. Gentleman had ar-
rived at a correct conclusion ; and he himself was of opi-
nion that numbers alone were not a sufficient guarantee
for a free and fair election. What he contended was, that
the ballot was the only security against such misconduct.
With respect to Preston, he certainly w.ts sorry that the
distinguished gentleman, now a member of his Majesty's
Government, had not been returned, as far as the personal
merits of the Hight lion. Gentleman were concerned;
but still he thought that the electors, having but two dia.
tinat questions concerning the ballot or the Corn Laws,
and the Right 'lion. Gentleman having stated that he
could not conscientiously vote for those measures, bail done
themselves signal honour in returning another gentleman,
whatever his opinion of the gentleman who had succeeded
might happen to be. With respect to the petition, he had
been requested to give it his support in the House, and he
did so with the greatest pleasure ; •and as a proof of the
good -feeling that pervaded the meeting, he might mention
that when his lion. Friend (Mr. liu►ne) had at .ted with
regard to the Church, that he did not seek its spoliation,
but only a commutation of its revenue, the sentiment was
received with general applause. . . .

Mr. TENNYSON .expressed his surprise at hearing
the opinions which fell from the Right lion. Baronet re•
specting Reform. He believed that the desire for Reform
pervaded all places, and he believed that a full, efficient,
and complete Reform must take place. That was neces-
sary for the salvation of our institutions,. and to give con-
tentment to the people. Ile had of late mingled much
with the people of all classes, and be was sure that was
the universal sentiment. Amongst the great majority of
the well-informed classes at present the only .apprehension
was, that Reform would he too long delayed, and would
not go far enough. That was the opinion and the ap-
prehension of the upper classes as well as the middle
classes. At the numerous public meetings which had
lately taken place, not one person bad proposed to make
any amendment to a resolution for Reform ; and whenever
the opposite question bad been mooted the speaker had not
been listened to. He did not believe that any person
could be found to vote against Reform except such persons
as those Noble Lords who could command us many votes
as were possessed by the Representatives of tire counties.
With the exception of such persons, 19.20ths of the
whole population were in favour of Reform, though they
might not all go the same length.
Sir R. WILSON agreed with the petition as far as
Reform and economy was concerned, hut be disagreed
with the petition, and with the Hon. Member fur Britt-
port on the subject of ballot. He bail on a former occa-
sion expressed his opinion on this subject, awl he did not
like to sit silent, lest the Hon. Member should suppose
that his arguments might have influenced him to change
his opinions. Ile had before referred to America, and
some other States where the ballot was in existence, and
heel shown that it had not answered expectations there.
He had since received a letter from a person of the
highest respectability, who had been informed by a
merchant of America, " That America had experienced
the greatest evils from the election by ballot ; there was
a general impression in that country that it would be
found necessary to abolish it altogether, and he expected
that a measure would soon be proposed to effect it." In'
Virginia, lately, where a Convention had met to consider
what changes it was nece►sary to make in the existing
institutions, including the Legislature, it was pro-
poleti to adopt the ballot, but that proposition was com-
pletely rejected. It was requisite that the representative
should know the opinions of those who delegated their
power to hiM, he should know all their opinions, and he
could not do this if they voted by ballot. He should know
the feelings of the different parties among the electors.
He further objected to the ballot that it did not necessarily
preserve secretly. Ile knew that the question was gaining
in favour with the people, owing to the example of France;
but it ought to be recollected, that in France there were
only 80,000 voters, and in France it was of great use in
protecting the voters against the power of the Government.
But, as the ballot existed in France, would Members wish
to have it here? Would the lion. Member for Middlesex have
the House of Commons vote by ballot, as the Chamber of
Deputies voted? Would the lion. Member be contented
that his vote should be unknown ? 'Would he like to
have to say. " Oh! I lissom you I voted for that ques-
tion ;" instead of seeing his name in those printed lists
that were now circulated ? It was not a system which
could be applied to that House, and was, therefore,
plainly imperfect. It was a new-fangled passion of a cer-
tain class of doctrinaires, who imagined that they had
found out, in the nineteenth century, a remedy for all
abuses. If it were introduced into that House, it would
overthrow the Monarchy, and to such a proceeding be
would be no party. Ile was town under a Monarchy, and
so he wished the country to remain, and he should always
oppose the introduction of the ballot. _

ill r. 011110USE7ho;tgl;i the arguments of the Gallant
General did not proceed from reason, and were not addressed
to reason. It would be more useful to appeal to what had
been done in America, than to what an individual said the
Americana were going to do. In the United States, at the
first beginning of their independence, open voting had
y
been universally adopted.—(" No," from Sir ft. Wilson )
Afterwards, as alterations were successively made in the
instit!ttions of that counts , the vote by ballot was
gene-
rally introduced. In the state of New York that was not
attended to as a permanent enactment; but after it had
been for some time tried, when the time came to re-model
the Constitution, the plan of voting by ballot was pre-
served, and WS$ continued to this day as most expedient
and useful, and was employed at all elections. France, to
which the Gallant General had also referred--France, that
" bad example," as it had been called, would not give much
support to hie argument, The paucity of the number of

830.

PRICE 7D.

votes to which the Gallant General bad referred, was the
very fact which made that example so very precious. lithe
Government had been unable, with fourteen thousand
places under the Crown—with electors only amounting to
seventy-eight thousand—to intimidate the electors ; if
sixty thous end of those electors might have been under the
eontroul of the Crown ; if, under such circumstances,
France had been able to achieve its freedom, her disposi-
tion to employ it has been strengthened by that glorious
result which had given freedom and strength not only to
France, but to all Europe. Supposing that France had had
no ballot, could the electors have dared to vote as they dill ?
It was one of the charges against the unfortunate men who
were now put upon their trial in Paris, that they had vio-
Wed the secresy of the ballot, and there could be no doubt
that they had. France, however, by that simple contriv-
ance, the ballot, had secured her own freedom. In Eng-
land there were more electors than it, France, and more of
them were liable to be influenced than 80,00. The 80,000
electors in France possessed at least one quality, which was
not possessed by all the electors of England. They were
all men of independent property. In this country there
were comparatively only few of the electors who were
independent in that sense; they were not persons of
property, and for such -voters there was no other pro-
tection or secutity but the vote by ballot. If it were
not secret it was not the ballot, but some imperfect
imitation of it, for secresy was essential to the ballot.
He knew that at the India House the ballot was not
secret ; the voters told how they voted. To that he
had• no objection. If people . to tell their votes,
he would allow them to, do
.se ; but . lug._
like to tell how they voted, then he 'wi',6l4-tive them
tected, and the ballot would protect them. The Gallant
General asked if the Hon. Member the Middlesex would

like tie ballot applied to the House of Commons—if h.r
desired secret voting for the Members of that House? 'He
would answer certainly not. There was a wide distinc-
tion between the cases, which the Gallant General could
nut possibly overlook. The House of Commons, repre-
senting the people, appealed to public opinion ; it de-
pended on that, and therefore the votes of its Members
should be given openly. They ought to be subject to the
influence of public opinion, but the voters ought not to be
subject to undue influence, end to guard against that the
ballot was useful.
.This was not his argument, at least he
did not state it for the first time—he drew it from the
works of that profound philosopher, whose works die-
played more acumen than he believed those of any other
author of the day—he meant the celebrated historian of
India, Mr. Mill. The arguments of the Gallant General
showed that he was not yet acquainted with the elements
of the question. He complained of the ballot system en-
couraging guile and ba.eness. Did not the present system
also beget perfidy and baseness? Was there nothing in it
to make men ashamed? Was there no room in it for the
exercise of tyranny ? Was there no guile—no perfidy.—
no baseness in a man going to the hustings, and there tell-
ing, and there acting, if he might say so, a lie, by giving
a vote to a man whom. he did, not wish to vote for—by
giving his vote against his conscience, and what be
thought was for the public good? Was there in that no
perfidy to the voter himself and hie country? There was
much perfidy—much guile ; and that was the cause of
the corruption svhich disgraced the House of Com-
mons, and which had reduced the country to that
state out of which the new Government was called upon
to extricate it. As to what the Right Hon. Baronet
had said last evening about the demands of the people, he
did not believe that in those demands there would be any
excess. There might he a difference .as to terms ; but
there was now a plain necessity to do what the people
wished. It was not possible to stop short, and he be-
lieved that they would not be contented with anything
short of the ballot. He would not then say whether they
were correct or not in forming those wishes, but it would
not be denied that the opinion in favour of the ballot was
nia'.;ing great progress. He wondered the Gallant
General, who must know something of popular elections,
had not found out what a protection it would be for voters.
lie, himself, knew something of popular elections, and
when he had gone to canvass the electors of Westminster
for the Hon. Baronet, of whom be was then the colleague,
he bad more than once been met with the question, " Do
you want me to ruin my family? I would willingly
vote for the Baronet—l am friendly to Reform ; but
I dare not vote as I wish."--(hear, hear.)—More than
once had he seen people shed tears. It was not only
against the rich that the ballot -would he useful, but
neighbours and employers exercised the power which an
election gave them, to compel the people to vote as they
liked. The question of Reform, however, was now in the
hands of Ministers, and there he wished it left, not calls
ing on the Government to explain its plan, or embarrass-
ing it by opposition,--(hear, hear.)—Let the Ministers
only speik nut fairly; and if the country did not agree
with their opinions, they would soon hear of the disagree-
ment in such a manner as honest Ministers should hear.
The country expected relief; and expected it from the
hands of the Ministers. Reform must be given. The
Ministers were pledged to Reform. The general opinion
of the country was in favour of Reform ; and if the Mini-
sters acted on that principle, they would be supported by
every intelligent man in the country. As long as their
opponents—the members of the last Government—cons
tinned to be opposed to Reform, be was sure that every
man in the country would exert himself to keep them out
of place ; for the country would look on their return to
office as one of the greatest curses which could befall it.
No man, nor set of men, could now carry on the Go-
vernment by any middle course. The country could not
any longer be governed by a corrupt Parliament ; and if
the Parliament were not reformed, it could not be go-
verned at all. The people would no longer bear the pre-
sent state of the representation. If the Right Hon.
Gentlemen below him (Mr. Ilohhouse sat on the epposi-
tion side of the House) believed that they could govern
the country by any new system—if they did show any
disposition to try again their corrupt system, they might
make some sacrifices—but they would find that they could
not succeed, and that it was too late for their plan. They
must either have recourse to pure despotism, or they must
go with tie people. There was no middle course. They
might try to have recourse to their old system ; but they
would never afterwards repeat the lesson, as they would
find that the people would not listen to their voice. He
agreed with the petition as far as it demanded an effectual
Reform and the institution of ballot, and gave it his
cordial support, though there were some minor points on
which there might be a differenceof. opinion. .

Mr. 1). W. HARVEY declared, that when he was con-
vineed that the feelings of the great body of the people were
so much in favour of ballot as they were in favour of Re-
form, he, for one, should never oppose it by his vete.—
When it could be shown to him that the respectable body
be represented were friendly to the ballot, ho would yield
his individual opinion to the general opinion. He re-
gretted, however, to find that other gentlemen, whose
motives he respectd, and whose real be honoured, should
find in the ballot a remedy for all things, and a Reform
no remedy at all. This was, he thought, an ungenerous
sentiment, and it was telling the people—for what was
spoken in that House got abroad—it was telling the people
that it was of little importance iu the opinion of those
gentlemen that Ministers meant to propose Reform, and it
was decoying the public mind from a due and calm consi•
deration of that Reform which Ministers meant to pro-
pose. 'The advocates of the ballot seemed to him to fall
into error. They had alluded to Liverpool ; but did they
suppose that after the Reform the election for Liverpool
would be in the hands of the same class of persons as at
present ? Would it be so equally balanced by parties,
that a little knot of ten or fifteen voters should at
the end turn the scale ? Would it not be so balanced
that a corrupt body should make op a tally in the street,
and that an attorney and an elector should say,
" I can bring them up, but I must name my own
price." In all plans of Reform that he had heard of, the
elections would not be left in such hands.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile relied that the character of the electors would he im-
proved, end though lie would not vote for the extinction of
any one elector, he trusted that no person in possession of
property would be excluded from voting whenever a Re-
fin m should take place.—(Hear, hear.) Was it to be sup-
posed, that when all the respectable and opulent inhabitants
of Liverpool, containing 140,000 people, had a share in
the representation, that such disgraceful scenes would
occur as at the late election ? If it were true that the
Americans were about to abolish the ballot, that was
no reason why we should adopt it, He was surprised at
the existence of ballot in a Republic, and he thought that
with a ballot a Republic was incomplete. In a Republic
the basis of its institution was public .purity, and in it pa-
triotisni was virtue. A Reform would also extinguish the
influent.e phi& ixow corrupted the elestions, A Mom

w Id weep away those Arra were
corrupted. Great and little men, landlords and tenant..
masters and servants, employers and tradesmen, wooll
kave but one interest—that of good Government ; and se-
cretly would not be necessary to induce them to follow one
interest. He would not, however, go further into the
subject, though he must say he did not consider the argu-
ments of that celebrated essay by Mr. Mill, to he inipreg-
liable; and he should be ready when the queeti,n was dis-
cussed to explain his view.. If gentlemen thought Re-
form incomplete without ballot, they would be better aide
to obtain the ballot after the Parliament was reformed ac-
cording to the plan of Ministers, than while it was in its
present state. If after the plan of Reform were brought
forward, the public still found themselves under the in-
fluence of terror, surely that Reformed Parliament would
listen to the public voice more readily than when there was
no hope of Reform.
Mr. CALCRAFT only rose to express his astnnisli-
ment at the attack which the Hon. Member for West-
minster had made on the Government of the Duke o.
Wellington, and those who had formed part of the Mini-
nistrstion of the Doke of Wellington. The Honourable
Member had spoken of that Government as if it had con-
ducted itself only by the principles of corruption, and as if
he could not heap upon it too many disgraceful epithets.
The Hon. Member had stated that the Duke of Welling-
ton had so governed the country, that if his Administra-
tion were again to be pieced in office, he must have re-
course to a true despotism, because he could not govern by
the old means of corruption. The Government of the Duke
of Wellington was at first very popular, and it deserved to
be so. That Government had repealed the Test and Corpo-
ration Arts ; it had emancipated the Catholics; it had re-
duced taxation ; and it had carried the principles of
economy to a greater extent than he had ever befiwe
witnessed. Great credit was due to the Duke of Wel-
lington for his management of the national affairs. lie
had never before heard that of all the measures of the
Duke of Wellington's Administration, there was not one
that was not carried by corruption. He would wily beg his
Hon. Friend, if he again made such accusations, not to ge-
neralise so much, but to enter into pirticulars, to point out
individuals, and bring forward proofs of his assertions. Ile
lorroprollthrowished to ask theotHr,;. Member
tist the
ti county Middle-
sexvea one question. Was it true, as now stated, that when
Mr. Byng, who had re resented the countiof Middlesex fox
ideasiengti td tWris Hon, Friend
,
if It were true that he Wee SO violently opposed. that he waa
on listened to when he attempted to address the meeting.?
If that were so, he would only say it was very harsh treat-
ment for an old public servant.—(Meer, hear.)
Sir .1. NEWPORT was sorry to hear his Right Ilort.
Friend give the Duke of Wellington credit for actions for
which none was due. Did the Duke of Wellington begin
the repeal of the Test Act? Certaiuly not; he did nut
agree to it till he was forced. He admitted that the Arlini,
nistration of the Duke of Wellington was populae at the
outset, but his Administration had ceased to be popular.
Why was that? Because the Duke of Wellington had re,
listed the wishes of the people for Refortn.—(Nu, nu.)—
fie had ceased to be popular because he had declared that.
he would resist their wishes. If the present Ministers
should resist those wishes,—if they did not, gratify those
wishes—they would show thiamine unfit for the situa-
tion they held. The great military achievements of the
Duke of Wellington made the people expect Much from
his civil government, but they were disappointed, though
his military glory cast a hope over his civil govetument,
which had never been realized. His civil government
never deserved any credit, and he believed no military man
ever would make a good civil governor.

Mr. CALCRAFT explained that he had been one of
those who had forced the repeal of the Test Act on the
Government • but though they had carried the question in
that House, they had ad hope of carrying it through the
other House. That was done by the Duke of Wellington,
and therefore he attributed the'carrying of it to him.
Mr. WESTERN thOught the most important point in
the petition had not been adverted to. It began by al-
luding to the very great distress in which the country was
now plunged. In his opinion, that was the subjeetwilicli
ought most to attract the attention of the /louse. He
thought, however, that all the difficulties and distreeses
of the country proceeded from the alteration of the cur-
rency. They commenced with the alteration of the cur-
rency is the year 1819, and they had fluctuated with it
up to that moment. He was so thoroughly convinced
that the only remedy for the distress' was to be found in
an alteration of the laws on that subject, that if no other
Member took up the subject, he should certainly bring It
before the House immediately after the holidays.
Sir R. INGLIS said, that as he was not likely to have
another opportunity before the holidays, he felt himself
called on to express his opinions on a subject which was at
present made the source of considerable excitement in the
country—the question of Parliamentary Reform. He be-
lieved, and he Made the declaration without hesitatioei
that the sentiments of the great body of the intelligent and
well.educattel persona in the community were net enure fa.
vourable to Reform at this moment than at any given pe-
riod within the memory of than...-.(!hear, hear, and a
laugh from 'the Ministers.)--The multitude—the unedu••
cated and unthinking classes, might entertain opinions at
the present crisis somewhat differing from those they held
six months ago, or from those they would probably held
some six months hence.--(Hear, and a laugh. )—He did
not mean to deny that from certain peculiar events
,that
the advocates for a Reform in Parliament were just now
more in favour with a portion of the people than they bid
been a short time since--(!hear).-.best he looked forward
with martini* to the speedy return of a sound and healthy
state of public opinion on that question.—(llear.)
Mr. BERNAL felt strongly inclined to ask the Hon.
Baronet, the Member for the University. of Oxford,
who the persons were, and in what class they were to be
found, who he denominated the intelligent portion of the
cornmenity.—( Hear.) And he would he glad also to
know at what period all classes had so loudly demanded,
and were in fact so absolutely clamorous fora Reform of
Perliatnent.—(llear. ) Ile thought that the intelligence
of which the Hon. Baronet spoke was to be found in the
middle classes. They were the person* who now de.
mended a Reform of Parliament ; and if the present Mi-
nistry did not make up their minds to grant thee* cancel -
'ions, which were required from them by the universak
voice of that class, he saw no prospect of permanency in
power for them, nor for any other party which might lit-
called to take the helm of affairs in England.—(lletr.,
Ile was no advocate for what was called Radical %limn ;
but be wished to us the intelligence and the property (if
they pleased) of this country fairly and truly represented
in Parliament; for as the House was as that moment con-
stituted, no man could say that intelligence and property
were thus fairly represented.
Mr. TWISS said he could not well understand why the
observations of the Member for Oxford had been receded
with a laugh by those who entertained a different opinion.
It was by no means certain that the feelings of the people
were so universally in favour of Reform as the present
Government seemed to suppose. A my short time
would, however, enable the House to go into a discussion
of that question, and he should reserve himself fur that
occasion. At present, he would merely say, that the
Members of the present Government would be more fen-tu•
nate than any of their predecessors, or that created mar
ever bad been, if they euceeteled is proposing a planet
Reform which would be equally acceptable to every claimer
Reformers.---(Hear, hear.) If the whole of that chase
persons were to be polled, taking in the advocates of UM
moat Suffrage and Vote by Ballot on the one hand, nor
the most moderato Reformer of general existing abuses
the other, he believed a much greater number of the peep
of this country would be foetid willing to vote for the
continuance of the system as at present, with all its faults
than for any other which could be proposed to them.—
(Hear.)
Mr. W. DUNCOMBE was net disposed to agree with
the lion. Member for Oxford, that the desire for Reform
had not increased. lie believed that some Reform roar
necessary and that the desire for it had lately made con
aiderable progress in the country.
Mr. ATTWOOD did not believe it possible for the Gis
tvielernirmpernoifetsosigonos.so.
faatruluchthaesythpZnalirweddiisliposeemdfortliaibtynawstit,l4
and to vaunt their new born popularity, it rested, in hie
opinion, on a very slippery foundation, and he was confi-
dent they would not long be able to retain possession of
the popular confidence.—e(Hear.) They refused to look
into the real cause of the distresses of the people, although
they vaunted so much their desire to relieve them. in the
petition which was before the Home, a prayer was to be
found for an alteration of the Corn Law*. He always felt
grieved to see the atteutiou of the public diverted in this
manner to the discussion of fallacies, because they were
diverted from the real cause of the distress. . The Corn
Laws, so far from being injurious, bad really tended much
to diminish the injurious tendency of the interference with
the currency. The principal object sought for at the pre-
sent moment seemed, however, to be Reform...for the
ballot, so loudly demanded, was nothing but a new
principle of the old question of Reform. Now he
would just call the attention of the Government to the
last passage of the petition now presented. Ile would
desire those who profess themselves determined to flostroP
the popular current, to look to the words at the petition
in which it is declared that unless a Reform be groattedu*
the extent which, in their wisdom, will be uontedrld "I
ficent, the refusal will be speedily felleyied by. a pqm-144

rebellion, of which England must be the victim.—
(Tlear.)..-Now, when he saw a Ministry of this country
priding itself so much on popular applause, not only in
that House, but on the hustings at elections, and in all
public atad county meetings, he confessed he could not en-
certain any very sangeine hope of their being long able to
satisfy the wishes or the hopes of those whose opinions they
thus courted ; nor could he entertain any strong opinion of
the duration of a power which professed to Lama itself
solely on the support of the confidence of the people. Ile
had heard a good deal of the professions of the Government
with respect to Reform, and he should like much to he I:.
him state some palpable, tangible alterations which they
proposed to make in the system of representation. He
should like to know'what sacrifices they proposed to make
to popular applause? He should be glad to know to what
lengths they were willing to go with those whose favour
they sought, and whose opinions they professed to court?
What part of the existing institutions of the country they
were prepared to sacrifice? When they proposed to make
their *toad against popular innovation? What they pro-
' posed to abandon, and at what boundary they were pre-
pared to pause in their career, and brave all the censure of
their admirers and the full force of opposing public
• ephtion?—(llear, hear.) For a Ministry; resting as the
present did on popular favour and popular confidence,
-he considered it most extraordinary that one of their
' first—their very first acts; should have been an addition
'to the standing army, and consequently to the burthens of
' the people. This was an ominous commencement for
those who existed but by the public confidence. The
Ministers had, he feared, assumed too rashly that they
possessed public confidence. They had come into power
with promisee of an' immediate and efectual redress of all
the Ault, of the State, but a little time would 'hew that
they had exaggerated their power and their means—that
they were grossly deluding those who trusted in them—
and ll* they were impotent to relieve the country from
the difficulties in which it 'was placed. The Prime Mi-
nister, within three hours of his appointment, declared in
another place, that the night should not pars away with-
nut his summoning a- Council to devise some remedy for
the distresses of the people, and instituting an inquiry into
the cause of those distresses. Nothing had, however, yet
been done. The Ministers Were practising a system of de-
lusion; which would; in fact, destroy the character of all
public men. When it was found that they deserted their
swofessinat—and' desert them they must, for they would
Anil it impossible tto perform, them—the character of all
public men wiled ruiure lie 40 much suspected, that all
ennadence Must hi at an end bitween the people and the
Government.—(Hear.) The lion. Gentle Man concluded
by observing that he had not dealt in fiattery.--4 Hear, and
a laugh.) He hall spoken truths, however unpalatable
they might be to those who Ward them.
On the questinn that the petition be brought up,
Mr. ill/ME rose to defend the character of the Mini-
stry, and to Justify the course adopted by the Noble Pre-
mier with respect to the question of Reform. On that
occasion, the Noble Lord thus expressed himself in the
other House.—(Cries of " Order.")—He thought, that
'as the Hon. Member had referred to what took place else-
-where, he might do so too. He happened to have brought
down the paper containing the words alluded to by the
lion. Member, for another purpose, and he would now
read it to the House.

The How. litst---aatt then repeatedly attempted to read
'the paper, beginning with the words " My Lords," but
he was as often called to order, and
The SPEAKER at length informed him that he could
Illlt read the papir with reference to its bring the speech
'of a Noble Lord of 'the other Muse, because the cw.tton of
Parliament forbade it; and furthermore, the Hon. Mem-
ber must be aware that it could not have lteen inserted in
.the paper alluded to without a breach of the privileges of
Parliament.

Mr. lIUME—.WeII, then, I'll take another way. In
a certain island called Bruhdignsg—(Shouts of laughter)
—there was a chief called to command over his
brother chieftains—(Continued laughter)—and he ad-
dressed them in these words Fellow Chiefs—
(Leughter)--:The "State, you know, is in great danger,
and I think it will be well to make preparation for
'The storm which is approaching. Make fast your
doors:4A laugh)—bsr down your windows—he pre-
pared for defence. I think that the manner in which yeti
are to meet the foe demands your attention, and that you
'are, above all other thing., especially bound to endeavour
to gain the affections of your_ enemies. I don't mean to
say that they have rights ; but I think it will be admitted
that it is expedient to give a little in order to guard against
ultimata tell." These, said the lion. Member, were the
*worth of the Chief, and they were intended to show that
a resistant, to what the voice of the people so loudly de-
manded would be ; anal that by giving what was
likely to tit* their reasonable, demands, would render
bolt. and bars unnecessary.
Mr. ATTWQOD explained.
Mr. CURTEIS denied that the tithes were felt by the
agriculturists as a burden ; and maintained that if a vote
by ballot were conceded, it would involve the country in
all the horrors of a civil war. Ile allowed that the great
majority of the people were favourable to Parliamentary
Reform; but he denied that they were favourable to the
ballot.

After • few words from Sir G. W.torterrnen, Mr.
WAttsuarox, and Colonel SOITIEORPE, the petition W/111
ordered toa'be printed.

ELECTION COMMITTEES.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, in pursuance of his notice lest
eight, moved to ha the tint() for the several Election Com.
striae', Ballots. They were accordingly fixed as follows :
Wigan Tuesday, Feb. 15. Grantham... Thursday, Mar. 2.
Rye ditto Hythe.... ...... ditto
Wexford...* ditto • Londonderry Tuesday, March S.
Carlow Thursday, Feh, 17. Dover ditto
Truro ditto Stockbridge.. ditto
Winchels#4 ditto Tregony Thursday, Mar. 1(1.
Oxford Tuesday, Feb. 22. Mayo ditto
Taunton.... ditto Athlose ditto
Carrickfergus ditto Pontefract Tuesday, Mar. 15.
Durabarton...Thursday, Feb.2l. Peterstield ditto
C1are............ ditto Maidstone., ditto
Galway.. .....* ditto Colchester Thursday, Mar. 17.
Seaford Tuesday, March 1. Galway .. ..... . ditto
Llinlithgow ditto Liverpool ditto
Drogheda....* ditto Kilaresisoro' Tuestlay, Mar. 22.
Durham Thursday, March 3 Coleraine ditto.
KEEPER OF THE SIGNET, AND KEEPER OF