The Sun.
London, England, 1806-05-07 00:00:00

ADDITIONAL FORCE ACT.

On the Motion of Mr. Secretary WINDHAM, the
Order of the Day was, read for. the House resolving
itself into a Committee on the Bill for, Repealing the
Ad ;Ition.al Force Mt.
Mr. Secretary WINDHAM moved, that the Speaker
do now leave the Chair, on which -
:Mr.. JO,ll iNTST ONE rose, eo qate; in a few words,.
the motives which induced him to give the vete which
he meant to do on the present Motion. When the
_ _

Additional Force Bill was first ititrotk he had in
, • an early stage expressed his disapprobation of it,
which disapprobation was grounded on his eonvic
tion of its insufficiency., Still, • however,. when it
was proposed last Ses'sion to.repeal the Bill .he had
voted against that repeal, not intending.by that vote to
preclude himself from, supporting any subsequent re-
peal that might be proposed, but merely to suspend
that repeal until the further operation .of the Bill
was ascertained. He confessed that his expectations
had been very much raised by what had been stated
by the Right Hon. Sectary for the War Depart-
ment, whohad said a great deal of the inefficiency of
the Army, of the mariner in which the battalions
had been clubbed,•as he termed it, and of his con-
viaion that ArMies alone decided the fate of Nations..
Ail these declarations had led him to look for some-
thing more. than. that Right Hon. Gentleman had
brought forward. He• did not think the induce-
ments which he field out to •an augmentation of the
regular force were sufficiently powerful ; they were
not equal (even numerically speaking) to the' bounty
that he proposed to take away ; he did not see in his
measures a resource adequate to the existing neces—
sity; he owned he had been disappointed; he believeds
that a considerable part. of the Right Hon.. Gentl-
eman's plan was impracticable; 'he had omitted to do
any thing to render the military profession more ac,.
traetive, either to the men or the Officers.. On
this head he (Mr. J.) recoMmended a pursuance of
the system adopted with regard to the Navy—to
the men ad increase of Serjeants and Corporals ; to
the Officers, the certainty, a certainty which attend-.
ed every other military systeni in Europe, of being
'promoted on the achievement of any gallant enter-
prize. He did not mean to advise .such funda-
mental alteration in our military system, as that
merit alone should obtain promotion ; what he wish-
ed for was, that v,hen any Officer had so eminently
distinguished himself as -to be mentioned in the
Genetal Orders, that he sheutti.ii-ain one step. The
advantage of such a System might be seen in history,.
and was, at this . Moment, strongly evinced tin the
French military service, and, our own Marine. He
could not think that the adoption of such a system
could injure the feelings of a single individual, while
it would be extensively serviceable .to the Country.
With regard 'to the means proposed by the Right
Hon. Gglitleman, for carrying his plaP of an in-
' Crease of the Regular Force into execution, lie

,thought that they- wanted tliat courage, that energy,
that decision, Nvhith might reasonably be expected
from a strong:Government. This seemed to him tol
clearly shewn in . the hesitation to take from the
Militia that aid which would be-necessary to carry
the :Military Establishment of the Country to the
desirable point. For his part, he would recommend
that inlistment from the Militia- into' the Line should
be encouraged as far as it could be carcied, and that.
then the deticiPncy in the Militia should
diatelv supplied by ballot. A, •dimioution of the
Militia took place in 1799, but was any. evil the
_re-..
stilt ? Last year 14,000 men were drawn from the
Militia. Was the Militia System impaired ? Were
the Militia Officers disgusted ? To him this appear-
ed to be the otily effective means , of carrying our
Regular Army to the amount which was wished for,
namely, 200,000 men. If the number at which it
should be deemed eligible to fix the Militia' was
40,000, and the plan he suggested should reduce it
to 20,000, then the ballot ought instantly to supply
the deficiency,. and in the present crisis when every
otie was eager to shew his attachment to the' Coun.
try, there, could be no doubt that such a measure
Would be received with cordiality. This plan would
likewise prevent the prevailing evil custom into
which Parishes had fallen, of paying half the fine for
persons who were unwilling to serve, and thus de-
parting from the original
,intention of the Militia,
Act;-it would also prevent the growing evil of Militia
Clubs, SubsCriptions, ; and, above all, it would
give us a Force by which we should be enabled, either
to.return to Peace in- safety, or prosecute the War
with vigoitr.
Colonel GRAHAM:, adverting to what had been
stated the. otherevening, with reglird to the various
Military systems of Europe, con tended,th at in France,
particularly during the, last century, until the Revo-
lution,
limited service was the general system. He
had put questionS to several ei.:devatit French
,Offi-7
cers on the subjecl, and he, found that their answers
coincided. One of these answers was so' deCisive,
that he would take the liberty of reading it, espe-
cially as it proceeded from an Officer of high reputa,_
tion.. The question was, " Had any inconvenience
been sustained in 'France by the introdu'aion of
limited service ?!' The answer,."-Quite the contrary,
it rendered recruiting much more easy, as there Were
many• who were willing _to make a kirci 'of party
of pleasure, for: a few years, but not for life, and
in fact a 'young fellow could not get a wife who had
not made a cbngd for eight or ten years." In the
present state of Europe, it became necessary in this
Country, to lay the foundation of a great Military
'Power : this could' only be done by the adoption of
such a system 'as that proposed by his Right Ho-
nourable Friend; but then that-system must be the
`only one, it must be without a rival, it must receive
the strong sanction of the Legislature, it must pro-
mise to be permanent.' If he-were asked, " By re-
pealing this Additional Force Act, do you abandon
all future Compulsion he would say, " By no
means." Compulsion would, indeed, come with a
better grace. after the people had been shewn that
,every other means had . been resorted to uhsuccess-
fully.. By voting, however, for the repeal of the
Additional Force Aet, he by no means pledged him-
self to support the whole of the Plan of his Right
I-lon. Viriend. There were parts of. that Plan to
which he 'certainly should obje&. Of the advan-
tages of the Volhnteer System,, for instance, he was
perfealy convinced. Of' the Volunteer's of England,
'it was true, he had had little experience ; 'he had
only seen two Battalions of Volunteers in Scotland;
of those in Ireland,he must say,that they were equal to
any purpose to which troops could be applied, and
perfealy.fit to act with the Line: There was ano-
ther part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's Plan Which,
in his opinion, might be amended. This was, the
`• different periods of service by which a soldier became
entitled to supe,rior advantages. He thought that
these periods-ought not to be equal, but that it would,
be attended with a great advantage to make the first
period the largest, carefully avoiding to make it 'So.
long, however, as to discourage the youhg 'recruit.
With regard to the fear that had been expressed' of
-the effect that the_ adoption of his Right Hon. Friend's,
Plan was likely to have upon the existing Army, he
knew the character : of the.BritiSh Soldier, and he
knew that no danger heed be, apprehended on that
point: Certain engagements had been made; if these
were hot infringed,, no ;ruhrmurring.wOuld or could
ensue, The very discussion of the subject was cal-
Culatej to satisfy the minds' of the British Soldiery.
Never could he believe that the measures in con-
•templation would produce an inelination in the
minds-of the Officers criminally'-to relax the dis-
cipline of their RegimentS to induce their men to
re-enlist at the expiration 'of their term of 'ser-
vice. If their tendency-should be to lessen the pre..
sent severity of military punishments, it would, be a
desirable result.' Still less was it probable, that the
measure would render, the soldier less brave as the
period of his liberOtion approached. What ! • was it
possible that it Could be supposed that he would wish
to be sent back. tti his 'own village branded with- the
name of coward ! The courage of the British Sol-
dier .was not merely physical.. It derived its more
noble qualities from the sense he entertained of his
independence as amEnglishman—of his being born in
a,free Country. He appealed to every General Of-
ficer in the Country, whether lie would .rather com-
mand an Army compOsed of men who were merely
possessed of physical courage, who were only me-.
chanically brave ; or of men whose minds were of .a
superior cast, and who were animated by nobler and
more generous sentiments. .
Lord CASTLEREAGH declared, that no ihdivi-
' dbal could be more strongly impressed than Limself
how ungracious was'the task to oppose any Admini-
stration in a measure which they asserted wascalcu-
lated to relieve the Country from an oppressive bur,
den. It was not only an ungracious task ; it was
-likely to be a fruitless , one. It was not prbable
that he could persuade the House to agree with him
in opinion ; but such was his convi&ion of theinade-
-quacy of the system which was proposetfas the suc-
cessor of the measure, the repeal of which was then
under contemPlation, that he should . feel himself
. guilty of a gross derelidion of public duty if he re-
trained from expressing his sentiments with regard to
, it. By expressicg those sentiments the whole weight
of the responsibility would be thrown on the should-
_ ers cif the
.Ministers whoshould cast away so power-
ful an instrument as that which was now in their
hands without having previously provided an ade-
quate subStitute. It was ' rather extraordinary that
the Rt. Hon. Secretary fur the .War .Department had.

chosen to sit silent under the- speech of his At. Hon.
Friend the other evening, a speech which . was as
admirable for the.brilliant fancy as fir the,solid ar-
gument which it contained, The Right: Hon.Gen-
tleman,' however, had chosen rigidly to dismiss the
House„ without deigning-to make any answer to
'what had been so ably'and so docjilehtly aTtluced;---
The Right Hon. •Genfletnan had only tauntifil4ly
asked whether or not any other. Gentleman had any
thing to'Say in 'defence 'Of the Additional 'Fere& Ad? ,
:He would .now state what he had himself to urge in
defenceof it and he assuredthe R.t. Hon, Gentle-
man that, in what he should that night trouble the.
House with, it was his intention, to confine himself
as closely to the discussion of the A& as possible ;
not that he was unaware of the bearings of, the, Rt.
Hon. Gentleman's plan on the subject, but because
the investigation of the s Mt itself, was a question
sufficiently:extensive. He would, .therefore, care-
fully mkt travelling into the consideration of the
plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman,except
Where it was indispensibly necessary'. so to do. A
preliminary question certainly ought tobe7what the
military deficiencies then were, and what they
,were
likely to be during the present year, under the sys=
tern which the Right Hon. Gentleman had partially
.developed ; for in proportion to the ammint of that
deficiency:would be the reluctance that the ;House
must feel in parting with a 'measure which was so
well calculated to assis.f at least in supplying it. As .
he understood the Rt. Hon. Gentleman, he had de-
dared that. the existing Regular Army was by no
means adequate to the exigencies of the State : he'
had, however, expressed his intention, altho' -his own
system of discharging was not to operate for seven
years, to adopt the plan antecedently fixed upon.-----
The Army he had stated as then 25,000 less in
number than it ought to be. • The annual casualties
amounted to not less. than 15,000 4 • to this mast be
added the nine Veteran Battalions,' . exceeding
6000 men, -and all those who had served 21 years;_
the Militia like Wise was to be reduced from 56,000
to 38,000. The grbss demand for recruits therefore
to supply 'all these deficiences would be 51,000 men:
The Right Hon. • Gentleman, by resealing the Addi-
tional Force A&, took upon himself the respOnsibility
of providing for ,theSe deficiencies, without bolding
out any inducement, except the single, one of enlist-
meat for limited service. Next year the waste mnst
Considerably increase, and when the term of years at
.theexpiratinn of which the discharging part of, his'
plan Was, to operate, had passed, the casualties
:would be doubled,
.and amount; instead of fifteen,
to thirty thousand tilen. In arguing in support
of the Additional Force Aat, he would' confine
himself to the- discussion, of the civil branch of it
.gxclusively ; but in answer to 7 what, had been stated'
the othenevening with regard to the influence of the
Aa on the regular recruiting, it became necessary
to say a few words. The' regular recrniting.would
be found, .on examination, to haVe been Very little
operated upon by events Chich might appear likely
to affeat it. To prove this, he would state the Month
ly averages of the regular recruiting for four distinal
periods, when it was under the influence of different
circumstances. The first period wag for the.. twelve'
months previous to the' epa&ment Of the Army of
Reserve Bill, ,the monthly average of which had
been 980. men. The -second perioct was for the
4 eight months. that the Army of:Reserve .4 and
'
the enlistment from 'the I.lilitia .into the Line
were in operation, the monthly average of which had
been 780 men ; thus although duringthat period not
less than 10,000 men had -been raised by lecal're--
cmiting, there was only a small reduction of 20(4 men
from the first period. The third peried was the
interval between the close of the operation of the.
Army of .Reserve A& and the commencement of
that 'of the Additional Defence A&, the monthly
average of which had been 7.51 men.- The fourth and
last period was thel 8 months. during, which the Addi-
- tional Force Mt bad been in operation, the monthly
average of which had been 958 men. The liaise
would therefore see, that during the last period, when
the Additional -Foree MI was in force, the regular re-
' cruiting had flourished more than during the period
when no measure was operating against it. The Mt
under consideration had procured 11,000 men a year
• by local enlistments and parochial levies. Without
some measure of this sort the ordinary recruiting
would be insufficient. In his-opinion no number of
recruiting parties that could be detached consistently
with the welfare of the Artnyywould be sufficient to
reach the population, so as a draw as great a supply
as might be derived from it. Supposing that there
were 500,parties, and that the population was fifteen
millions, there would then be but one party to a po-
pulation of 30,000; and, in many instances, he was
convinced that there was only a single party to a po-
pulation of 104000. 'lt would be highly impolitic to
send more parties, as this would withdraw from, the
'Army too great a number of valuable Officers and
men. , The expellee of the recruiting service; was
200,0001. a-year, which made the actual
_cost of
each man procnred, exclusive of bounty, 1.81. while
the expence of raising the men by the Parish Officers
did not exceed fent' guineas. He had once thought.
Of suggesting a plan of, employing civil agents,-. but
this he did not believe would be so effeEtual as 'by
somejudicions and necessary alteratiOns to Lucke the
present Aa..• still more efficient. • That there were
abuses in the Aa be did not deny, but into what
legislative Mt did they not creep ? He would, how-
ever, on a future day, move for Papers to shew that
these abases were not se -considerable as had been
pretended. By these Papers, the' House 'wand find
that no system of recruiting ever went so completely
td localise the levy. The repeal of the Bill *as pro-
posed- at., the very moment when the' difficulties
which had hithertO obstructed` its execution were
ceasing.. Ile would, state'the operation 'of the Bill
in a single countY; Leicestershire : the number of
men to 'be furnished by that county was 200 ; they
raised 151, so that fOr the 49 def.cient the county
was only liable to the fine of 2,151; If the Defence
Mt had been properly enforced .this would have
been a more general ,case: Nothing that had-been
hitherto shewn induced him to despair of the sue...
cess of the A& if it were allowed to remain in fOrce.
There was nothing in the Rt. Hon. Gentleman's Plan,
to compensate the Country for the loss of this A&.
One clause in' the Bill before the House was so ob-
je6tionable that'he must enter his pretest against it
even 'in that stage. It was that by Which Parishes
not having fulfilled the stipulations were indernui,
-tied from the penalties of the MI. Nothing could'
be more unjust and impolitic than flips to confound
the aaive and meritorious with the indolent and,

culpable; and the tAight Hon.. Gentleman himself
would probably
,feel the of e& of this principle,
which he was desifons' of establishilig-, 'in the execu-
tion of any measures be Might bring fcraiard. He
could not but consider such a release frOm the penal-
ties incurred, as_likely to have a very injurious infisi-
ence on the operation of such measures as might
hereafter be resorted to for a similar purpose, and as
a degradation to Parliament:.
.When the .measure
•httd' been-first introduced there Were deficiendiesdil .
the Army of Reserve' to the amount of 17;000 men,
for which fines were outstanding and leviable to a
much larger amount than the penalties at present
incurred Under the Additional Force Bill. Tile Leff
,gislature had remitted those fines„ bUt provided A\
remedy, by imposing a new duty on the
.Parishes in
the Ad now proposed, to be repealed. Though the -
Legislature had remitted the. fines, it had never been
in the contemplation of Parliament to inderanify
Parishes for the amount of the fines which they had
'aC.tually paid. There bad been raised by the Parishes
all over the kingdom 37,000 men, .and when he,
!looked to those Parishes that had been defaulter's;
both under•the Army of Reserve and Additional De-
•fetice Ads, he thought it 'hard that they should he.
.allowed in both instances to go free of any.penalty..
.The Parish - he should particularly notice; which
afforded the sole instance of a case having been made
;out and submitted to Parliament in the shape of a
Petitioo- to Parliament ; he alluded to the Parish' of
,St.Mary4e-bone. The quota of that Parish to the
Army of Reserve was tea,
.and outof that it was 8
'deficient.: Not a singleman had been raised in the
parish for the Additional Force Ad. In the Parish of St.
'Anne, the next, to the parish of Mary-le-bone, the
Whole of its quota, both under the Army of Reserve,
and- Additional Force Ads, .had been raised, and yet
the measure of the Right- Hon. Gentleman was to-
have the effeat of placing both parishes on the same-
footing.. - The parish that had exerted itself in the
execution of.both Ads, and withsuccess, was to be
at the loss of all the trouble, inconvenience, and 'ex-
penee incurred theretity, whilst the parish of Mary-.
le-bone, that had been a defaulter with re fed to
both Ads, was to be saved.harmles,s, and to triumph
for its inattention' to the provisions cif the Legisla-
ture. There was one clause in the Bill, which, if it
should go into the Committee, he should eertainly'
propose to have left out ; he meant theclartse-forin-.:
dernoifYing the parishes, upon which' the penaltieg
had been levied, which, if adopted, would go to.,
throw disgrace 'upon'a solemn Ad-of Parliament;
and it would be easy to foresee that the. same course
would be looked to in other jnstances, and' that simi-
lar neglect would be the consequence, as to Tonne
measures of a similar nature. If it were his wish to
involve his Afajesty's _Ministers in difficulty and dt,4-'
boi-ace he coold not pursue a more effedual course_
than to suffer the Bill to pass; to withdraw all oppo-
sition
.ftorfi the proposed System, and to permit the '
measures meant babe brought forward to pass with-
out any comment 'Or amelioration. But
,he was so
thoroughly convinced of the effed that the Bill un-
der_ discussion would have on the military strength
and siltimate security of the Country, that he should
oppose it in every stage. He contended that the Bid
.propoSed to be repealed was. advantageous, and not
objectionable, and capable of improvement as to the
abuses that were so' much insisted upon, as well as
rendered highly produdive 'to the Army, On all
these grOunds, therefore, be 4hould vote against the
Speaker's leaving the Chair. . • .
. 111 r. DENIS BROWNE objedad to the:system
proposed bythe' Right. Hon. Secretary,' as calcu)ated
to change the whole military systeurof -the Country.
He would not consent to the repeal of the Additional
Force Bill, because. he looked upon it as prodUdik,
and had reason to know that it-had. proved efficient.
He could not consent to give up such a measure tbr a
4stem, no part of which he could approve oE The
measure had succeeded completely in Ireland. In
the eighteen mouths since it had passed there had
been raised in Ireland 4552 men under its operation.
hese men had been raiseddn the manner directed
, the Ad on the bouhty allowed: by law. No
ore motley was paid than the Ad direded on rais-
g tbe'men. He had been informed, even by ait
Learned Judge who Went to the North-east Circuit,
that he had been applied to at an :Asaize to suspend
the levy.of the penalties incurred for some defick
encies under the Ad to the last day. of the AssizeS.
The Judge did so, and the men were all produced.
On these grounds he should vote against the Re-
peal. . . .

Lord HENRY PETTY, in reply to .Ivhat had
fallen from the Hon. Gentleman. who had just sat'
down, observed, that the Bill proposed to be repeal 4
was the English, not the Irish Additional Force Bill.
He was glad to find 'the Noble LOrd at length dis-
posed to try the Aft upon its own- merits; without
reference to any other measures. The Right HOn.
Gentleman opposite ,(Mr. Canning) had ou a for.
mer night objeded against the measures proposed
by his Right. Hon:Friend, that they *ere novel. But
hebegged to say that the measure now to be repeal-
ed,- when brought forward, was a new one. It' was
not. intended in confirmation of the 'measures of the
preceding Administration,: but in opposition to them.
It was. intended to put local influence-in opposition
to, local compulsion, 'that they were then to decide
upon the effeft Which in this respea,it had produced. ,
In discassinethis question he should set-aside all the
radical dele6ts of the measure, and consider' it only
as to the extent towhi:cli it had secured the objets
proposed to be attained by it. The measure -.then
-under discussion I,l'' RS- founded on the total failure of
that Bill ; for whatever prospefts might have been
held out frbm-it; every-one of the object which it
was intended to accomplish-reunified still tolie ob-
tained: The Noble Lord(Castlereagh) would adm i tthat
one of its principal objects was to obtain' a large and
-effealive supply of Force to the Army, in the propor-
tion of the deficiences then existing; and to arise its-the
Army of Deserve and the Mil:tia. -So far as the Bill
had procured men' towards that,puttose,.. so fir it
,had succeeded ;''but so far as the Supply of men pro-
cured fell short of these deficienc.es, so far it had
failed. He proposed to coniicior, Ist, what,The
was intended to produce, then what it has produced,
and next „what was the-enormous expellee that had
-attended it. (The Noble Lord . entered here into
a statement of the-numbers prov)sed to be raised;
and aelually raised by the measure ; spewing, that
afterdeduCting from the riuthhttr to be raised, the,
\number produced by the Bill, thore was at-present
a deficiency .of 18;927 men, and penalties to the
amount of 45,4051. now due in England).- • But 'it
had *teen said, that the- Parish Offleers were. now.ac-

[i•ilinted with than), and.that-itaoperOse machinery
, o.lld- henceforth be produdive. He begged, how-
N-cr, to look prospe&ively at the operation of titre
measure. The number of men to be raised under
it, cm the Ist of Oaober, 1806, including the- defi-
ciencies in the Army of Reserve and Militia, would
be 27,900; and supposing -it to produCeat the rate
Of the average' of the last -.five, weeks, one hun-
dred and seventy men'per week, there would then
be a deficiency of 22,290 Men, and penalties to the
amount of 515,5wi1.dne. Whilst• he had the ho-,
nour of a seat•in His Majesty's Councils he should
feel it his duty not to tolerate a law whose provisions
could not be carried
.into effea.: The Country had
viewed this measure in that light, and had called on
his Right Hon. Friend for its repeal as a boon.—
There was another, objection to the measure, arising
out of the quality of the men raised by it. Out of
above eleven thousand,men raised by the, Bill, 2116
-had deserted. What was to be thotight of the qua-
lity of the men when one-fifth of those raised
,de-
:iterted ? As to the unwillingness of the Parish Officers
'to carry the provisions of the Bill into effea, the duty
imposed upon them was'so ineousiste:nt with the other
duties they had to discharge, that their reluctance - to
undertake. the new duty was not, to be wondered at.-
The Right Hon. Gentlernan (Mr. Canning) had ob-
jeaed to his Right Hon. Vriend's measures, that they
werecalculated to give the country too much of the mi-
litary chat-11.61.er; and yet this Bill which he defended
was, from' its provisions, more calculated to render
the whole country military, and in those instances
partieularly where it was least to be desired -(hear,
hear The Bill had been brought forward to get •
rid. of crimps and- high bounties, but had itdone
so ? And aftei all.what was produced by the sym-
*pathies,. which were to be called into action by this
13111 ? 'After the operation of all the machinery of
the' Bill;tmd the high bounties, what was obtained
by that dangerous useless thing, a soldier for limited
service ? • The system of his Right Hon: Friend
was consonant to that sound philosophy which was
founded on the practice ',and experience of all na-
tions: Another objet't of the measure was to release
the: regular recruiting from all competition, to leave
it free, unfettered, Unrestraine4nninterrupted. "(The
-Noble Lord here stated the amount of the produce
of the regular recruiting for four successive pe
riods of. six months each, and proved, 'that,. in' the
last six months, when the Bill was, said to be
produdive, the regular recruiting produced only
4.890 men, being t 829 less than in the preceding 6,
months ; shewing also, that the numbers obtained
by the Parish Officers was only 140 more than the
deficiency of the regular recruiting.) • He thought it
his'duty to state. these details, but had avoided taking
notice, of the original defects of the. Bill. He called on
• the Noble Lord, or the Right Hon. Gent., near, if
they respected the framer Of the Bill, to•state why,
when all the objects ofit had tidied, they adhered so
lirollv to the means it afforded. He was at a loss to
know how it could be serviceable to the Country to
have. the Bill continued. It might indeed be ser-
viceable to persons in opposition to Government,
'who were dispesed to undermine the measures of
His Majesty's Ministers. He acquitted the Hon.
Gentlemen' opposite of any-such intention, and was
sup their attachment ,to the Bill proceeded from
their partiality for a measure of their own produc-
tion. As to the abuses that .had taken place, he'
thought it just to argue from such as were found
.necessary for putting the A& into elf-ea, and which
the lnspeaing Field Officers were not-sent to cor-
red, but to inculcate and to recommend. As to
the indemnity to Parishes, it was impossible to avoid
it without continuing the Bill. The penalties could
not be levied after its repeal, and it would be unjust
to release the Parishes of which 'penalties were due
without repaying those that had paid penalties in-
curred. With respe& to the Bill on the Table, he
Considered it a boon, or- rather a debt due of the
Rouse to the Conntry.

111 r. BABINGTON stated, that the men raised
under the Act bad been procured fromtherecruitinff
sericants, and were under the standard size for the
Line. •The agents of the parishes had-:the whole of
the market for boys, in consequence of the lowness
CC the size adniitted into the Additional" Force.--
Thus the men were procured at the rate of five
guineas prerniu;;l to the person who procured them.
They were raised, therefore, not in a proportion to
the population, but 'the property. The quota for
Leicestershire had been raised in that way,' and
the' circumstance of the five guineas premium
Was known to all the Deputy Lieutenants. The
Bill, therefore, had the etfc.'i.it Of interfering with the
regulartecruiting. . •

Colonel BAGWELL was of opinion, that if ever
there had. been a cause to excite.the feelings and apt-
rrehensions of individuals, it was the present, when.
4) fatal-a change was proposed in the military system,
of the Country. When the Right Hon. Gentleman
tame into office with his colleagues; if was spoken
cf as an- wilt when all the talents •of the Country
'were included in Administration. 'But what had
they done ?, The Right Hou.- Gentleman had done
]lothing to improve the condition or state of the
Army. The opening of his Measure had been the,
signal of a suspension of every effort that "was Mak-
zug ip the Country. He thought it ,surprising, that
the Right Hon. Gentleman had not deemed-the Cap-
ture ;of the Cape of Good Hope deserving the
Thanks of that House. Whatever he might think
of the Additional .Force. Bill; he should not consent
to its repeal till some other measure was to be sub-
stituted.

111 r. .LEE observed; that though the County he •re-
presented stood high upon the rceords of the House,
not a man of its quota of 150, which it had raised,
had been raised by Parish Officers. They had been
*ll raised by the assistance of an Inspe&ing Officer,
and were generally composed of men turned over as
under size, from a depot in the vicinity of Waterford,.
The Hon. Meniber then argued from the Papers on
the Table, that in England the Bill had not succeed-
ed, there being no less than 14 Counties which had
not produced a single man. He approved of the
whole of the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposed•rnea-
sures, except that part
.which left the soldier at li-
berty, •if his term was .expired, to demand his
charge during'any War. That .he shoUld oppose,
and he knew that many the. Right Hon Gentle-
man's Friends would also vote'ogainst it, unless the
service of the soldier should be secured pending any
War.

Sir EDWARD HARTOP took the opportunity
of raying .a_ 'compliment to the county he had the
honour to.repesent, that it had raised the'whole of

.its -quota.. They'foihni•i3 at first ,be' cause they did hat •
understand the Bill, but they hAd afterwards- used
every means in their poWer to carry the A 4 into ex- i
ecution, and the county stood pre-eminently, if uot I .
solely, on the ground of having obeyed and executed
with alacrity the T--Ata of the Legislature,. - 1
Mr. PERCMIL -was determined to resist 'thiS l:
Bill rn every stage, and vgbuld therefore vote. aiahiSt
e
the Speaker's leaving the Chair. He allowed there
Were several serious objections to the Additional i
Pot-cella ;• but those.with whom be aeted always :I
gave it to be understood that they 'wished , to modify 1
it so as to get rid.of the obnoxious parts. He Bled
on the same principle as his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Canning); who on it former night wished to defer-to
a future opportunity' the further proceedings towards'
the repeal, in , order that the House might be ena-
'bled fairly to compare the benefits of the Additional
Force A& with the measures which the Right Hon. :
Gentleman (Mr. Windium) meant to substitute for :
it, or with any other system his fancy or that of
any Other person may. Uggest. It was allowed thatour existing Regula 'Army was great in compari-
son with every thifig but the exigencies of the times..
It amounted at present to 207,000 men, and it was
said that while it was . shirt- of 300,000 it would be
insufficient to the occasions that may arise. As the
present excellence admitted no improvement in qua-
lity ; as the zeal; discipline, and spirit of theexist-,
ing Army, were as high as the most sanguine wishei
could desire, a nemerical increase was' the- only
improvement that could be contemplated ; and it
was fair to consider every measure as good or bad in
, proportion as it was calculated. to , produce this
effect. The Yearly waste of the Army, according
to the
,SccOunts on the Table; was-15,000 men.
The effeaive produce of the • ordinary recruit- -
lug; on an average of five years, was 11,000 men,
7-The Additional Force Act had produced last
year 9000, and taking it'at this, though there Was •
reason to think, that it suffered to remain, it would-
this year. produce twenty thousand, was- it to be
supposed that thellegular Army would be maintained
at its present amount, in case the. Additional Force
A& was taken. away, by an improvement in the'
produce of the ordinary recruiting, capable of mak-
ing it yield as much us its present average and the
produce of the Additional Force A& taken, together, - •
that is 20,000 men,a year ? It may be argued, that
the Additional Force A& ob•struaed the ordinary
recruiting.; but it was incumbent on the House to
examine, whether, after the Act was removed; the
Plan proposed by the Right Honourable Gentle 1.
-
Mao was likely to. make the ordinary- recruiting
yield 9000 met) a year, the amoont,produced by the
Ad in addition to its present produce. `the Noble
Lord 'had blamed those who took credit for the •
amount of men raised under the Act in the whole of
the United Kingdom, when the Bill- before the .
House went only to repeal the Act as far as related-to
England: but the• Noble Lord, when it answered his •
own purpose,. gave the sanre statement, of the deser-
tions.ThoSe who objected to the Act on the ground of ,
its being burthensome and compulsory, would do well
to consider, that if they got rid of it this year they
would to have to ena& measures much-more burthen-
some and compulsory next year, to supply the defi-
ciency created by its repeal. If voluntary services I
were not to be had, compulsion should be resort-
ed,
to —compulsion-could Operate but in two• Ways, i
on the person, or on the purse. In-this Country 1
it was always thought preferable to bring it to bear
on the purse. The Ballot was much more oppres- -'
sively compulsory than this Act ; for by that the ne- 1
cessity ofpersonal service, or the payment of a price
beyond his means far a Substitute, were equally
ruinous to .any poor man who happened to be bal-
lotted.
It -was to be considered, whether the new '
Recruiting Plan would produce equally with what it
went to take away ? and whether the things -asSo-
dated with it' did not render it altogether inadmis
sible ? Whether the Plan ought to be tried in time
-of War ? Whether the Soldier was to have his
conge in the most tryie period of a War ? Whe-
ther it was to extend to the existing Army,' to the'
Marines, or to the Artillery ? On this last point
he WAS very, particular, for he -had heard from the
most skilful Artillery Officers, that the limitations.
would be ruinous to their service ; that n good artil-
lery man could not be made in less than seven years;
and-that a man was most efficient from ',the toth to,
the 20th year, ,He complained that the opinions of
the General:Officers were withheld,; they were -all;
adverse to dismissal in time of War. He allowed
that the -Soldiers of the existing Army had not,- in
stria justice, a right to complain, if they did, not get
all -the advantages of% the net' engagements ; but
when the Right Honourable Gentleman laid down
his Plan qn the broad basis of human nature, and the
feelings of the human Mind, they
.felt their cases.
assitnilated to the, principles of the Plan, and there-
fore they thought they had a right to its advantages,
'He 'wished to know whether it was intended to
give a boOnty 'at each renewed enlistment. He I
understood it was intended to give -oo bOunty, or
a very small one.. :If: that was the ecase the man
would go off and, enter, either - into a new , Re-
giment,' or as an original recruit, and get- the full
. bounty. It was not to be supposed that a- Soldier's
life annuity of sa. a week was worth so large a pur-
- chase as sixteen guineas. , Tints 20 or 30,000 men
would be either lost every year, or retained fat the-
expecce of a large bounty. So much for the eco-
nomy of the plan ! Even these despised six-pences
would cost the Country 120,000 pounds a year,—
But, perhaps, a resource was expected from the Vo-
lunteers, or the training en masse. He did not know
whether the Right Holt'. Gentleman meant to encou-
rage do to discourage the Volunteers. He was as-
great an advocate for the Volunteer. Force as any,—
He looked upon it as the most important, the cheap-
est, the most innocent, and the most effective mea-
sure that had ever been adopted if the Hon. Geo-
tlethan did not mean -fully to preserve the Volunteer
System, he ought to. have dissolved it all at once.—
The opinion of many of our highest General Officers
was, that, the Volunteers were fit to serve with troops
of the line : be did not suppose•that these opinions
were to be interpreted so as to say that they- were
equal to soldiers of the line. There was an opinion
ofa Noble Lord high in His Majesty's Councils(Lord
Moira) still stronger in favour of the VOlunteers
of Scotland, when the- Noble- Lord declared
,he
would most readily lead them. against the Enemy at
any time. He-could not set the Horionrable Gen-
tleman's opinion against these authorities. He did
not'think the Hdimurable Gentleman had sufficient.
experience of the Volunteer. Systein. . He - did not
know In what, state of discipline the Felbrigge Vo-

teer 3 RightHOli,curabl4
man Windhanil, as Colonel of then ;
.was
the Only -Colonel of ','.olunteers of the Ivingdom.---
Tlie other C(ir-ps *ere' by:,Lit,-Utenant-
Colonels, by Majors only., and Corps of thestrengtll
of this...by (liptains. -.l.'here, Were no, IVlli'jcrs Under
the Ftirht.llon. CaPta;n*, no sUbal=
tern Qiiicers : there Were only two Serjeants, and no
drummers to this CorpS of seventy-three men. Iti
short, with the exception of the Colonel, it exhibited
an example of all that was imperfect in the Voluri7
teer System. He trusted, Wowever, that the Volun-
teers of Britain would not be judged of by flieFel
brigge Corps: The training; of the leyy en masse was
compulsory` and tyrannical in the highest degree,
Its principle had been inverted,-he supposed, beCause
it calm froni this shop.. It‘had been instituted as a
resnurcenetessary in a great emergency and Volun-
teer services had been 'encouraged in 'preference, to
it. The training en massewould be iiisuflicient for
want of
,Officers to train so large ,a number
. The substance of the Right Hon. Gentleman's
theory was, that we would get more Men by holding
out less advantage. He was against the repeal of the
Ata s for at present there was not the ]east Prospea
that the Right, Honourable Gentleman would be
successful.
*

• -
'Lord H. PETTY, in explanation, said, the ac-
count of the deserters he had stated was the only one
he could find.

Lord CATLEREAGH also explained.
Mr. FOX said he found himself in a very peen-
situatiba,' in haVino- td persuade the House to
repeal an, A6t, every c)bjetf:lioti to which had been
confirmed by the experience of those whO had wit--
nessed its operation, and avowed by its advoeates
therefore it was said, that it was hard; to iudge the
measure until It was understood, and it Was. not un-
til the A& had been 18 " months in operation that
any progress was Made towards understanding 'it.-
0, wise Legislature! more wise Executive Govern-
went, that passed an Acct to ruek.att immediate and
urgent occasion, which could riot be understood in
less than 18 months, and which could not even then
be executed!, What hutniliation could be greater
for those •who had proposed the Bill, than this total
failure? And now, when it was boasted that it was
productive, was not the execution of it attended con-
fessedly, and with the" avowal of the Hon. Gentle-
men themselves,: with the most intolerable oppres-
Sions and hardships? It was not till the A& had
gone out- of itself, and abandoned its charaaeristic
principles; that it had any effea whatsoever. It
had been held forth as the great benefit to-be derived
from the measure; that it, Would proceed by a new
agency; from which it would:hi no respe& be suf-
fered to depart. Surely, the titles of a' fanciful theo
fy,' and'a sentimental proje&,' noW so facetiously
given to the Plans.Of his Right Hon. Friend, applied
better to their measures thin to the Plans of his Right,
Hon. Friend: Men from the-same place were thought
likely to be induced by a regard for their companions
and. a desire to accompany them. and shard their, for
tunes. All that was attraative in' this way was noW'
destroyed; the sphere of the reuniting was enlarged,:
and the principle of Abe Bill so far done away alto-
gether. He had heard it.was- Proposed to do away
the double bounties. He had read the Papers on. the
Table, the ,contents of which'it was Convenient for
the Noble Lord to abstain from stating;•though they
were ordered on his Motion; and from these PaperS
he could see, that it would have been to render the
Act most completely nugatery'if that bad been done:
for now that the distri& had been enlas-ged, the men
could not be had without employing .4gentS,' he
should:not say Crimps; .and alt the Writers 'on the.
subje& of the Bill harped upon the additional bounty
of six guineas., Then it was proposed to' amend -the
A6l, by taking away the whole of this. A great deal
of other mattet, foreign to the Ae-t had been :intro
dUced into the debate, not by the Noble Lord cer-
tainly, but by those'Who followed hini on the other
side, It was contended that this Bill 'should not be
'repealed till the House should have decided -On the
whole of the Military Measures his Right Hop.
Friend bad to bring forward, as if the consideration
of the propriety of enliSting'men for limited 'service
would not be as open after the repeal of this Bill as
beforv. • Neither was the question of the
,repeal at
all conue&ed with the ciestion„whether the Volun-
teers should be kept on the August or the June al-
lowances. He could not draw his argument in fa-
vour of the ,repeal from it; and certainly the. Gen-.
tlemen on the other side could draW no- argument
against the repeal. A number of arguments relati‘ 6
to this Bill were drawn from the training en Masse,
and these of so detailed
,a nature, that those who
urged them seemea to think there was a measure of
that kind before the 'HoUse, and that the House Was
in a Comthittee upon it. Again:it was asked, if we
got rid 'of' the Bill, what was to be substituted for it ?
He had long been of opintem, that the best substi-
tute for the Bill was the repeal of it; the best correc-
tive Of the Miscitief it .had introduced was to put an:
cacti() it But though'uo person was more partial
to his. Right Hon. Friend's plans than he was; though
he boasted. of having a. considerahle share in the
formation. of these plans, as well as in the 'argu-
`merits in support of theni, he disclaimed for them
all idea of their being a substitute for the :Additional
Force AEt. The reason whythis Right Honourable
Friend had not brought forward, sooner his Bill for,
the repeal of the. Additional , Force Aft Was, that'
having a number of points in his mind relating to.
the Military Establishinent, he thought it better
to disclose them together. at the outset but it
did n& therefore follow, that the points were to be
discussed together... Thoughi his Noble Friend near
him had brought forward Many heads of taxation in ,
his Budget, did it follow that the pcoperty Tax-, the
Loan', and the iron Duty, were confusedly discussed,
whenever any part of that Budget .‘vas -underconsi-
deratiOn ? When the Hon. Gentleman opposite ask,.
ed, would you give eway the Additional Force Bill?
Inc answer was, yes, certainly;' for in giving it:
away, yoU give away a loss. fe had- 'often' said
this A& produced nothing to -the Disposable Re-
-gular 'Force: . The accounts befOre' the 'House
showed it as ually to lib -attended' with a loss
Mr. Fox,' theh •wenit- into a_ corriPkttive calcula-
tion to .spew, that' WheneVer this ACS !hid been pro,
du6l-ive,' the ordinary TetrUi•tin'had.b,....en less pro-
du6iive than when tts'operation xras-unehecked"; and
for this purpose, entered into a. variety of statements,
.sorn2wll'at to these of Mr. Hawthorn. on a
former occasiow;- from Which the Right Honourable
SeCretary made it am ear, . that instead' 'of 'assist,.
in the ordinal)? recrultig,,.. the. AriclitiOnal- Force

,

A(c hat:, ,4,..tprk,,c4 it
signifiec what tie .Pat.oh‘, iiliproch!,cedi.t:c;
waii,attended-withsuth. P.-lit
his gai'den iwitli his Child; .and the chlldr9itv-c4.
Soule. shovels of earth; and. then came ang
a stout boy aM.I, how much More I am a,Ue t 6 8(;
this than ',Was last yeAr, I e would answerl.. "1 I ani
Very glad of but my V.'orkrneti would have f orien
great- deal more if you had riot hindered them."
71'herefore, however glad he might be cf the improve"
Mont of till's promising child, he would remove him
out of the, way of his good steady workmen W.)-10114
he impeded, Our Forte limited in point of timt
was as great as could be wished. He allowed
.the
clig?cullle thatgtood, in the way of the training -e/t,

ntaS7e, but these difficulties 'night be conquered in
the Committee. When the whdle Country was train-
ed avast facility would be given to the recruiting of
the Regular Army; and tho' the Regular Army would:
be the first Oppesed to the Energy* this trained pot u-
lation would be the main and Ultimate 74tpix:rt, which
woulaand must render.. the Country invilicibTe.

as to the Volunteers, the nem Gentleman Said,
be did no: understand his Right Hon: Friend on thi.j
point And certainly; if he judged Of his 4-1o:x.
Friend's meaning by his own misunderstandings, ho

was gnilf;:, of as great an error a 3 judging of all t. 11,4

Volu-nteers by the Felbrigp Corps, as he then--
wardS found by' his Right'Hon. Friend's e.pi:-Itiation.
Then the Hon. Giqitlernan 'came plump with, th
question, was it or was it not intended to diminish the;
Volunteers? The answer was, " Neither ;" bat a rdzii,

lation of improvement was proposed, that fitly have
sOmelittle erre& either way; it woul&not he 5t.'.C11
These regulations were highly gratifying to the Vo-
lunteets.The Hon. Gentleman was little aceoginted
with the disposition of the Volunteers; if he con-
ceiVed them to look upon the grant- of Inspecting

Field Officers as a boon; Or that it would cost them

pang to part with those Officers. Most Certainly

on
o their Just institution there was every thing ;to
commend in the zeal, alacrity, and attachment
which they displayed for the defence of their :Conn,
try, and be was inferior to no man in entertaining and
expressing that commendation ; yet, he• did then
say, as he would now say again, that perliais ail
these generous ' sentiments .might
.hate:" been ,di.
re&ed into a more useful channel. , He never should
deny that they were of great service to the Coun.
try ; neither he nor his Hon. Friend had any notion
of subverting that system ; their anxiety , was to
improve it. As to the exaggerated representations
that had been sent abroad; to throw odium on his

Hon: Friend for his hostility to that system, nothing
in general could be more groundless : his Hon.
Friend had never said or done any thing in that re-

speck which he a!so had hot said or done; and .he
was therefore willing and_ ready to share all the coif-
sequentodium with him. , ,But whatever regarded
this topic might as well be discnssed hereafter, and-be

rejeete'd Or adopted as the House might fit ;
the only question now was to repeal that Big :
voting for its repeal, the House did slot pledge
themselves-to the adoption of any one.of the Mea-
sures that might hereafter be proposed. The same
-might be said of theprojeca of limited service, and

all the other topics which it was .supposed.his Hon..
Friend's plan intended to embrace. _ He shouA

`scarcely ailncle to all the -hard ..v.crsii; of which •sozpo
Gentlemen bad been so prodigal on this occasion,
_ .

fantiful theories, wild speculations, Sc e; he- should
only say, they 'level' had any died upon his mind ;

and heWis sure they n&er would make any iw
pression upon a mind like,that of his Hon. Friend.
Much had'been said of the majority of Military Au-.
thorities that were against the 'suppOsed plan of his'
Hon. Friend; that plan mi\-,,ht divided•and sub-.

divided info many branches. But •he thonghth6::
safely say, that upon all_ the more- material
...

points of that plan the Authorities in favour of them
would be found not less numerous and respe&able ;
that Civil kuld Military Men would exert their best

endeavOUrs, to perform their duty,„ and that thc Te-
Sl.llt W 01.14 he trusted, appear -wise; just, ipti;lible,

and -eligible; and in no way inconsistent with the'
spirit o the Constitution , the discipline of the Army,
or with any of the general principles with which it
bad been, represented asTirrecbncileable. When it
should be coolly considered in that light, he had.
reason to hope that 'some of the -Gentlemen opposite
to him- would be ashamed of the violent langwige
and intemperate disapprobation with Which they had
so prematurely attached it.

.
-Mr. KECK referred to the ntmlber of men Which
1-1(1 been raised by the Bill 'in Leicestershire; and
'argued from hence against its repeal.
• 111 r. BABINGT6N and Sir EDWAIM HARTOP said a
;few word in explanation u, on the same topic. .
Mr. J. FULLER spoke with his usual energy against.
the Bill propOsed to be repealed..

Arr. -CANN/NG would trouble the House but'' -
with a few words : he could not suffer the Debate'
to go ''off on the grounds, laid doWn by the Right ,
Hon./Secretary (Mr. Fox). Such an assumption .
must prove fatal to,every .measure that was not pro-
posed by Ministers : - for, it would appear, that howl-
ever comprehensive and complicated were. the plans
which they might forward, it Would be still compe-
tent
for the Right Hon. Secretary to prescribe what
scope and circuit should be given to the arguments '
of those who should oppose them. If such deference
,was to be paid to Ministers, and no argument urged
• against their measures but such as they should. 41-
, :low of, it would be.in vain for any man to raise
his voice against. their measures. The Right aoiL
Secretary had treated their attempting to discuSs any
part of the propixied system on the, present ques7 ,
lion as no less ridiculous' than absurd, as if upon the
opening of the Budget it bad been'argued, that (he
terms of the 'Loan-were had, because the Tax, fix
example, upon Iron, or the Tax upon Property, were
l found. objedionable. But iti-- his mind there was a
consider 'Ole difference between the two cases, and
Pa,
the analo6 5„ %failed not only in fact, but in arp.;timent.''
He was not a little surprised to obse,rve the narrow
ground upon which the Right Hcra. Secretary:bad
taken up the question—it was • nti`frovver certainly-'
than he had ever known that RightHcati. Gentlettran
to have argued any measure upon. He has SatisiSed,
himself with resting the whole of his argument inior:
a dry calculation, which, though it might be fount=.
ed in fa.t, was yet not concrusive in argrutlient.
Here Mr. OANNI proceeded to shew that the cal
dilations --of',Mr-..Fox and Lord H. PETTY were
materially_. erroneous, and that the Additional Force
Ad 'had produced all the benefits that had been
desdihod.. . .
Several animated explanations here took place be-

V~~

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