The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-02 00:00:00

INLAND REVENUE BILL.

On the motion that this bill as amended be considered,
Mr. HUNT moved the omission of clause 21, and the sub-
stitution in its stead of a new clause, making the consent of
one justice sufficient in granting occasional licenses to sell
beer, spirits, or wine, and extending the operation of such
licenses from sunrise to one hour after sunset, and, on occa-
sions of public dinners or balls, to such hours is the justices
may allow.
Mr. AYRT ON objected to the alteration.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER supported
it, on the ground that it was a rational amendment in the
law. From 9,000 to 10,000 licenses had been taken out since
the law earns into operation, and he did not believe there
was a single case in which mischief had resulted from them.
The clause was then read a first time.
On the question that the clause be read a second time,
Mr. DODSON proposed, as an amendment to the clause,
that after the word " license," at the end thereof, to add, in
lieu of the duty of ss. now chargeable, there shall be charge-
able for every occasional license the sum of 2s. 6d.

After some discussion, on the suggestion of the CHAN-
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER it was agreed that the
clause should stand over.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the following clauses were agreed to : Ist. A clause
enacting that commissioners of taxes for any division of a
county may hold their meetings within an adjoining city
or other place of exclusive jurisdiction. 2d. A clause enact-
ing that income tax is to be deducted from coupons on stock
certificates, although the half-yearly payment is under 50s.
Mr. HUNT then moved that no mortgage, bond, in-
strument, or any assignment thereof, given by way of
security, in pursuance of the provisions of the twelfth
section of an act passed in the last session of Parliament,
intituled, " An Act for the Better management of High-
ways in England," nor any contract, or agreement, or
appointment of any officer, made or entered into in pur-
suance of any of the provisions of such last-mentioned act,
shall be charged or chargeable with any stamp duty what-
ever. The hon. member said that it was no doubt owing
to an oversight that the Highway Act of last session did
not continue this exemption, and he would remind the
house that the South Wales Highway Act did contain it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER strongly
deprecated the pernicious example of exempting particular
individuals, or classes of individuals, from the operation of
the general law ; and at any rate if such exemption was to
be made as that now proposed, it ought to be embodied in a
particular bill on the subject rather than at the last stage of
a mere revenue bill,

After a long discussion, during which the proposal re-
ceived much support from the opposition members,
The house divided—
For the clause
Against
_ _ _

Majority against the clause -30
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved the recommitment of the bill, in order to allow the
clause which had been passed in committee of ways and
means for the adjustment of the tax relating to railway ex-
cursion trains to be inserted. The right hon. gentleman
also proposed another matter of a technical nature, with re-
gard to the taking out of the tobacco license. Under pre-
sent arrangements, there was but one day for taking out the
tobacco license, namely the sth of July; but in order to
remedy the inconvenience under which publicans laboured,
he proposed that publicans should henceforth obtain their
tobacco license on the 10th of October, the day on which
they obtained their beer and spirit license.
Lord R. CECIL objected to the present mode of proceed-
ing on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
said it was hardly fair towards those who were opposed to a
tax on excursions to make the present proposition without
notice.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could as-
sure the noble lord that he was not willing to do anything
without the sanction of the house, but he believed the
course he was now pursuing was for the convenience of all
parties.

Sir J. FERGUSSON said the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was entitled to every forbearance, as he had given
the parties interested in the matter the fullest opportunity of
stating their case.

The house then went into committee, Mr. Massey in the

chair.

The clause adjusting the tax relating to excursion trains
was then agreed to ; as was also the clause allowing publi-
cans to obtain the tobacco license on the same day they took
out their beer and spirit license.

The house resumed.
THE PATRIOTIC ASYLUM AT 'WANDSWORTH

-ALLEGED MISCONDUCT OF OFFICIALS.

Mr. J. A. SMITH asked the Under-Secretary of State
for War whether his attention had been drawn to the re-
port of the Patriotic Fund, and the causes of the resigna-
tion of the majority of the members of the ladies' committee
of the Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum appointed in Ja-
nuary, 1862. He also called attention to the admission of
the late Sir G. C. Lewis, that a girl of sixteen years of age
had been flogged in that establishment, and further, that
the conduct of the officials who had committed this act was
condoned by the executive committee ; and to inquire
what steps had been taken to prevent the recurrence
of such practices. The hon. gentleman called attention to
the lamentable event which had taken place on another oc-
casion, when a girl had been burned to death. The girl
who had been burned was not a pupil of the school, but a
servant. He believed the chaplain had no more right to
send the girl to solitary confinement than he had to impri-
son any member of that house. An inquiry had taken
place before a coroner and a jury, and a verdict of " Acci-
dental death" had been returned ; but he knew the verdict
had been condemned by all the inhabitants of Wandsworth.
The lady superintendent was not at Wandsworth at the
time of the accident, and he thought it right to state that,
subsequently, two schoolmistresses had been dismissed for
alleged misconduct or neglect on the occasion. The
attention of the executive committee had been called
to the state of management of the school, and after some
discussion they appointed a ladies' committee to assist
them in the management of the school. A com-

mittee of 13 ladies had been appointed ; these ladies

applied themselves with great intelligence and industry
to an investigation into the state of matters in the school,

and the conclusion they arrived at was, that the moral die•

cipline of the school was most unfortunate. Among other
things they found that a girl within a few months of 16

years of age had been flogged with a birch rod, under the
express orders of the chaplain. On another occasion two
girls had been sent to London by Capt. Fishbourne, the
senior hon. secretary, for the purpose of being mesmerised.
(Laughter.) The ladies' committee reported that the punish-
ment in the school was unsuitable and revolting, and re-
commended the dismissal of the chaplain. The executive
committee, though paying respectful attention to manythings
in the ladies' report, declined to dismiss the chaplain ; and
as a reason for this, they stated that everything the chaplain
had done was underithe direct sanction of the hon. secretary,
Capt. Fishbourne. It might be agood excusefor
afforded not dismis-
sing the subordinate officers,but the allegations a
Fishbourne was
good ground for the removal of Capt.Fishbourue. It appeared
to him that the position occupied by Capt. shbourne
a very singular and anomalous one. Capt. Fishbourne was
called hon. secretary, but he was told that he received a
salary amounting to as much as £730 a year. The hon.
member then called attention to the resignation of Lord
7671RitacatPworytotolfauiairinonfit:re.lf that things Colchester as chairman of the executive committee, which
that as his intention to say a word
wasth inngots were not going on in a sa-
tragted the m the hon. gentleman to whom had been en-
treated
of the institution, but he thought
tho
childtic he v,,,,,, in.rtittl)tac was the guardian of the soldier's
ot the noblelordedhlu bringing the matter under the no-
The Marcia, f the -Under Secretary
hon. member had° li.kierlNG.r,., for War. (Hear.)
he should inform put the question said. .that, though the
Patriotic 'Fund wull, how that
ti? him, it was necessary
Department; and the 1" way under the of the
a question almost in the same sh„ control control of the War
stated that he was not :name terma tuitt:2R+ in answering
nagement. of the school. It
way r„poaßaeut, distinctly
might be called the guardia Wa'
true that tvor the rna-
had n-) right to interfere, zoitt the Bailee% ellrdar °filb",,
him to interfere with the management4B ullrefauisnittable 'but
he
J. PAKINGTON said the o-
answer--a
711°°lellect
noble lord was exactly what ho had ex g-1°: bY the
the honour of being a member of Ptuheit)ed. --a
lie
had
mittee, the house would probably permit ehziecutive corn.
few words of explanation, and ho believed mit to offer a
w
satisfactory both to the house and the hon. gentlemano4l be
Thn executive committee had reason to be dissatisfiod.
with the unusual form in which the hon. gentleman had
shaped his question, and which was unusual in the Par-
liamentary form of question. The hon. gentleman had also
given undue prominence to certain matters which had a ten-
dency to create a prejudice against the executive committee.

The flogging of the girl with a birch rod, alluded to by the
hon. gentleman, was an act which he did not stand up to
vindicate, either in his own name or in that of the executive
committee—(hear, hear)—and he begged to state that
steps had been taken to prevent the recurrence of any
such punishment. In the early days of the institution
several practices had been carried out which could
not be approved of; but he believed that no blame
attached to the lady superintendent or to the chaplain.
The management of the school was vested in the executive
committee, who had appointed from among their number a
house committee. The flogging of the girl had occurred as
far back as January, 1862 ; and it was in the beginning of
1862 that the melancholy accident had occurred, which
caused the death of the girl by fire. The hon. member for
Chichester had thought proper to impugn the verdict of
the jury, who returned accidental death ; but he thought,
under the circumstances, no verdict was ever more
thoroughly justified. The hon. member had spoken of his
holding communications with some of the jurymen, who
stated they were not satisfied with the finding; but surely
the hon. member should know they could not take cogni-
zance in that house of anything which did not appear on
the face of the verdict. The hon. gentleman was correct in
saying that the event of last year led to the appointment by
the executive committee of a committee of ladies, whose first
act was to differ in opinion with the executive committee to
such an extent as to threaten to resign unless their recom-
mendations were carried out; and most of them were, how-
ever, adopted. At the commencement of the inquiry the
majorunitylesosf
thecommitteeladies,emexwecouutlidvenoctomcomntittnteuee
dismissed the lady superintendent and the chaplain.
That,
of course, placed the committee in a painfully em-
barrassing • • position. It gave the committee the chance of
two alternatives, either to dismiss those persons because
the ladies' committee had told them to do so on pain
of losing their services ; or, on the other hand,
the committee, having a responsible duty to dis-
charge, were to go judicially into the investigation of
their conduct, and come to such conclusion as their sense
of justice might dictate. They deeply regretted the inti-
mation they received from the ladies, but their determina-
tion was to hear what the lady superintendent and the
chaplain had to say, and dismiss them or not, as they
thought the justice of the case required. The inquiry lasted
from the beginning of March till the 9th of May, when the
executive committee adopted a resolution disapproving of
the punishment that had been inflicted by the lady super-
intendent and the chaplain in some instances, but that under
the circumstances of the new regulations that had been
adopted for the future superintendence and regulation of the
school it was necessary to call on them to resign their situa-
tions. That resolution was unanimously agreed to by the
members of the committee present, and it was confirmed
unanimously at a subsequent meeting. The next step was
the presentation of the report, embracing the resolution, to
the Royal Commissioner s; and Earl Grey, who was not
satisfied with the decision of the committee, moved a reso-
lution, expressing the opinion of the Royal Commissioners
in an opposite sense, viz„ that the two officials ought to
have been dismissed. The resolution was fully considered
by the Royal Commissioners present, and on a division
two only supported it, and seven opposed ; the hon. mem-
ber for North Lancashire, who had accidently left the
room, observed on his return that, if ho had been present,
he should have voted against it. Lord St. Leonards was
one of those who supported Earl Grey's resolution, and it
was but right to say that at a meeting of the Royal Com-
missioners held ten or fourteen days ago, Lord St. Leonards
said he had, since the motion above referred to was discussed,
gone over the establishment at Wandsworth, and he had
never seen greater improvement in the building or a public
institution in a more satisfactory condition. (Hear, hear.)
The executive committee had taken every precaution to
prevent a recurrence of what had occurred. They had
abolished the sub-committee, and every thing now devolved
upon the executive committee which had been recast with
competent men. Regular monthly meetings had been estab-
lished at the asylum, together with weekly inspection by
the various members of the committee. He hoped, there-
fore, the bon. gentleman would admit that the committee
had shown an anxiety, so far as they could, to place the
management of the establishment in a satisfactory condition,
without having recource to the dismissal of the two officials.
Although the ladies had thought it their duty to resign, he
could not help thinking that they would rejoice to hear that
the management of the institution had been placed on so
satisfactory a footing, without the Commissioners being
obliged to indict a stigma or cast reflection on two most
respectable and deserving individuals. The punishment
was not left to their discretion, a punishment book being
regularly kept; the punishment being restricted to three
stripes on the hand with the cane. That regulation had been
adopted unanimously by the Commissioners, except Lord
Colchester, who had resigned. The cane, the Commissioner
found on examination, was used in three or four of the great
public schools.
Mr. KINNAIRD said the explanation of the right hon.
baronet would give great satisfaction, and he suggested that
the schools should have the assistance of a committee of
ladies.

Sir J. PAKINGTON said there were seven only out of
the thirteen had resigned. They had never ceased to be
superintended by ladies.
Mr. KINNAIRD objected to the use of canes in schools
of this character, and urged a milder punishment as more
effective.
Mr. BRISCOE was pleased to hear the explanation
that had been given. He was also in favour of the super-
intendence of a committee of ladies. He referred to the case
of the two children that had been sent up to be mesmerised,
and hoped it would not be again repeated.
Mr. CORRIE said a medical officer was attached to the
hospital, and visited every day. No case would be treated
in future in the way referred to by the last speaker.
The subject then dropped, and the house went into
SUPPLY. _ _

On the vote of £30,643, balance of vote of £45,243 for
royal palaces,
Mr. NV, WILLIAMS called attention to the large amount
of this vote. Ho had no objection to vote any sum that was
absolutely required for the comfort and dignity of the
Queen, but he thought they ought to object to this vote,
which was an increasing annual one to the extent of £lO,OOO.
Mr. A, SMITH complained of the bad arrangement of the
details of the vote, things being mixed up in it that ought
to have been charged to other departments, such as furni-
ture. The savings from the civil list ought to be sufficient
to defray their kind of expense, and observed that he should
like to see a detailed account of that list. He feared 'hey
would get little redress from any remonstrance they might
make. He called attention to the handsome iron gates that
wore removed from Hampton Court Palace, and taken to
Brompton as specimens of English ironwork ; and ho asked
if they were still there, and why they were not repaired and
returned to Hampton Court Palace ?
After some remarks from Sir J. SHELLEY, relative to
the admirable manner in which the furniture department
was managed by the chief clerk,
Sir M. PETO called attention to the inadequacy of St.
James's Palace for State occasions, and hoped the noble lord
would shortly turn his attention to the subject.
Mr. CO WPE tt defended the manner in which the ac-
counts were presented. The vote for the royal palaces
was divided into three heads. Palaces occupied by her
Majesty ; palaces partly so occupied, but used for State
occasions, such as St. James's Palace ; and palaces that were
not in any respect in the occupation of her Majesty. There
was no charge for furniture in the palaces occupied by her
Majesty, as that came from the Lord Chamberlain's depart-
ment; but there were charges in the vote for furniture for
the State palaces and State rooms. The ornamental railings
were removed from Hampton Court Palace, and had been
removed with a view to their preservation, and we re now in
the Kensington Museum. It was considered better to keep
them there as specimens of early English art rather than
replace them at Hampton Court Palace, and by exposure to
the weather destroy them.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the sum of £82,750, balance of the vote for public
buildings and supplying them with water,
beingMr N.
charged
VWILLIAMS
for
the e
supplyall ed
oa
ft twe nattieorn to t t
ot
h the e
Hsuomusefs Ifop, oaoro.
liament, the fountains in Trafalgar-square, and to other
public buildings, and for engines, pumps, pipes, &o. There
was also a charge of £7:50 rent of a house for the fortifica-
tion branch of the War Department, and another sum for
the furniture ; that ought not to have been put into this
vote, but should have been charged to fortifications.
Mr. CONVPER said the War Department in Pall-mall
was not large enough for the fortification branch to be taken
there, and that was why the charge was in this vote. He
believed a very economical arrangement had been come to.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS also complained of the charge of
£9OO rent for a house in St, James's-square for the tithe
copyhold commission, that commission having been closed
for many years.

Mr. CHILDERS regretted the small number of mem-
bers present to discuss those estimates. He complained
of the inadequate superintendence exercised by the Go-
vernment of this country over public works and build-
ings, compared with that adopted by our Continental
neighbours in this engineering age. This country had lost
ground rapidly during the last 20 years in that respect, and
unless something were done to retrieve our position we
should fall far behind our continental neighbours. The
practical result of our arrangement was that the First Com-
missioner of Works had not the general superintendence of
the works of the country. He had certainly occasionally to
superintend the erection of a few buildings in the metropolis,
to look over the parks, and see that furniture was economi-
cally purchased and supplied. The superintendence of the
Public,,,, works and buildings connected with the Government
m
to racattered about that it was difficult to know whom
,m,l iI),,Y to. Some were under the control of the Treasury,
v iztooaasr.,.
It j tiii , t
nuawc-, ii
.sei : "enth. a
rttadet
ere:to,
,iltieoac
control
totally
ut the r
0.3 i oo
different
itrffhdee
roHef
noTtnir eade,w character,h o
Secretary. ha
na had
if?
rauei,:at
is
and piers ; railways, which required so
trot of ~, !,,rtel:-ir supervision, were placed under the con
wtakorekathale subject 11;:a:cresbee:::114.11
otra_
ent
to some change in the
He hoped
an,
Lt sat
ofan their eeicrofnunomctiicoanlsc
P°B 41151 e t 13 discharge
over them.
sad a,,i,/,:l74ltorae hon. member would
consider
',At not to CPerveision of our public
• lie musidored
w that
oenthu ntthhereoreci
rir-

they ought to be concentrated under the superintendence of
one department, which would be more economical than
now, and tend to an improved style of architecture.

Lord PALMERSTON said that his hon. friend's pro-
position went to a very material change in our system
that was not congenial to our constitution, It was true
that in France and other countries the Government exer-
cised great control over all works, whether public or pri-
vate, but that was not in accordance with the feelings of
this country, or with the general arrangement that pre-
vailed. He could not admit that this country was behind
other countries in architectural development, and he in-
stanced the public and private buildings of Liverpool,
Manchester, and Leeds, or any of the great towns, which
abounded with buildings of the most beautiful description,
erected by persons not under the control of the Govern-
ment, but employed by the municipality, which were an
honour to the country, and equal in beauty to anything
that could be found on the Continent. The hon. gentle-
man proposed that an officer of the Government should con-
trol and direct the action of municipal corporations in the
erection of town-halls.

Mr. CHILDERS said no. Only public buildings con-
nected with the Government,

Lord PALMERSTON said such were superintended by
the First Commissioner of Works, except such as military
buildings and harbour works, which required special ar-
rangements for their construction. In conclusion, the noble
lord repeated his belief that the arrangement suggested
could not be adopted compatibly with the Constitution.
Mr. A. SMITH complained that the items of all the
votes were lumped together, and that it was consequently
impossible to check them, He wished to know upon what
principle rent was paid for public property ? The system
was vicious, and he should therefore move the reduction of
the vote by £7,000, on account of such rents.
Mr. BRISCOE thought that the item of £25,441 for re-
pairs should be more detailed, and that the charge for water
in case of fire, of
£0f4,1300,000w0a, sanexdufsosriveen.gines, pumps, &c.,

Sir M. PETO pointed to the increase which was yearly
growing in the item for rent. Last year it was £24,748, this
year £26,358. In his opinion it would be more economical
and more convenient to build proper offices than to continue
the system of renting houses in different parts of the metro-
lis for the purpose, and he hoped that the right hon. gentle-
man, the First Commissioner, would take the subject into
consideration during the recess.
Mr. COWPER explained that the sum for repairs com-
prised 1,830 separate items, and that it would be trifling
with the house to attempt to detail them all in the vote.
The charge for water for all the public buildings was
£3,000 a year; but he had inquired into the matter, and
found that if they were to buy the water from the compa-
nies it would cost £BOO a year more. In regard to the item
of £4,000 for engines, pumps, &c„ in case of fire, he be-
lieved it would be a wise and economical expenditure. The
Government did not insure, and it was therefore necessary
that proper provision should be made for the accident of fire
It was first contemplated to erect a reservoir on Primrose-
hill, but as the cost of the plan would be £20.000 he had
abandoned the idea. The second plan which was suggested,
and which was eventually adopted, was to make the Ser-
pentine the reservoir. It would be sufficient to cover all the
buildings down to 'Whitehall, and the intention was to
place in connection with it pipes which would afford them
an abundant supply of water at any moment in case of fire.
In regard to the amendment of his hon. friend (Mr. A.
Smith), he believed it would lead to much confusion, and
hoped it would not be pressed.
Lord J. MANNERS reminded the hon. baronet the
member for Finsbury that the suggestion which he had
thrown out was not altogether new to the house. The idea
had been mooted before, but was abandoned by the house
when it was found that its execution would cost £1,000,000.
He admitted that the scheme would be:the most economical
in the end, but he believed that the house would still object
to so large and immediate an outlay. He wished to know
what was to be done with Burlington House.
Mr. COWPER explained that he was not then prepared
to say what would be done with it.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the vote
agreed to.
On a vote of £13,879 balance of the estimate for furni-
tare, &c., for the public offices,
Mr. A. SMITH moved that it be reduced by £4,611,
being the unappropriated balance of last year.
Mr. CO %VPER replied that there was no balance now
oMarchutstanding, it having been paid into the Exchequer in
Lord J. MANNERS called attention to the item on ac-
comet of the South Kensington Museum, and suggested
that the expenditure on account of the institution required
to be carefully revised.
Sir J. SHELLEY maintained that there was no expen-
diture which afforded so:much gratification and information
to a large mars of the people as that on account of the
South Kensington Museum. (Hear, hear.) No man
could object to it.

Mr. Alderman SALOMONS urged that it would be ad-
visable to be keep all the votes on account of the Museum
together. Its expense might taine d. then be accurately ascer-
Mr. AYRTON admitted the advantage of the institu-
tion, but contended that it would have been much more
beneficial if it had been erected within the metropolis. The
votes on its account were divided in order to disguise its
expenditure.
After some observations from Mr. COWPER,
The committee divided--
For the amendment 23
Against it ...................
Majority ....................
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was a sum of £97,9s2—part of which
had been already voted on account—to defray the expenses
of bee n
parks and pleasure gardens.
Sir 11. VERNEY, while recognising
the great advantages
that had been gained by the public in the opening of Batter-
sea and Victoria Parks, said it was incumbent on the right
hon. gentleman at the head of the Department of Works to
do still more for the public. For instance, a great conveni-
ence would be afforded by opening
a communication from
Cockspur-street to the north side of the Mall in St. James's-
park ; then the southern end of Park-lane was in a very
dangerous condition; and omnibuses ought to be allowed to
traverse the road by the Serpentine as well as carriages.
Mr. SELWYN called attention to the unfinished con-
dition of the conservatory at Kew Gardens, and asked
whether it was the intention of the Government to proceed
with the work.
Mr. TITE, fully coinciding in the opinion that the gardens
at Kew were a great success, thought it was an exceeding
pity that the wings of the conservatory remained unfinished.
Colonel FRENCH complained of the extravagant ex •
penditure on the parks.
Mr. DILLWYN thought they were entitled to demand
more information as to the details of the expenditure on the
parks. No less a sum than £25,000 was asked on account
of St. James's, the Green, and Hyde-parks, exclusive of
Kensington-gardens.
Colonel EARTTELOT moved that the vote be reduced
by a sum Of £7,952. How could a sum of nearly £30,000
be required to keep these parks in order ? He had heard,
indeed, that the sum of £5,000 was spent annually upon
perishable flowers, the production of which could afford no
enjoyment to the general public.
Mr. COX ridiculed the notion of designating the few
acres enclosed at Kennington as a park. A sum of £1,500
Was actually expended upon the keeping up of this ao•called
how the
park, the grass
part of which was devoted to the pasturing
of sheep, while the children were driven to play on the
gravel walks.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said these votes were an annual
cause of astonishment to him, for he could never understand
money was spent. (Hear, hear.) Richmond Park
was said to cost £7,000 a year, and St. James's, the Green,
and Hyde Parks cost £25,000 a year. 'Why, any private
Proprietor
would be ruined if ho spent money in such a
wy.

Mr' CAVE wished to direct the attention of the right
hon.
Affairs, gentleman to the monolith at the Eastern part of the
Serpentine. and which took the place of the spring which
was formerly there. People wondered very much where
that monolith came fromwhether it was from Egypt, or
whether it had been brought' from Assyria by the Under
Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
or whether it was from the
Summer Palace at Pekin,
He wanted to know where it
came from, how much it
cost and what had become of the
spring which used to be there. (Laughter.)
Mr. SCLA I'ER-Ttn
--''/OTH denounced the playing of the
band of the commissionaires in the Cambridge Enclosure.
He had the best authority for saying that these musical
performances were regarded as a most serious nuisance by
many of the Burrow:l(l4ig householders, If the band were
of the enclosure they
removed to the centre
might play
away without being a nuisance to anyone.
Mr. W. E WART
could not understand what were the
°Yrang
functions of the deputy-ranger of the park, and why the
public should not have access
to the ground occupied by his
residence close to the Serpentine.
Col. SYKES, having resided for 30 years in the vicinity
of Hyde Park, was able to afford testimony in favour of the
extraordinary
improvement in the condition of the Park,
compared with what it was formerly.
Lord J. MANNERS
said no comparison could be insti-
tuted between the maintenance of private parks and the
public parks of London; and further, the more like they
made thtia to gardens, the more expense would they cause.
He regretted that the structure for the use of tho band had
been erected in the Regent's Park without a little more pre-
liminary discussion in that house.
Mr. COWPER said that the London parks could not
for a moment be
compared with the parks of private
gentlemen. The parks of London were frequented by an
enormous
population, who were perpetually doing damage ;
and the consequence was, that a staff of 46 constables had
to be employed to keep order. With regard to the item of
£13,000- which was the e
. cost of the maintenance of the
three parks, it should be kept in mind that there were eight
miles of roads to be maintained, and 25 miles of gravel walks.
The cost of a macadamised road like that of Regent-street
costs about 4000 a mile, and if they were to apply
such a
calculation to the roads in Hyde-park, Green-park, and St.
James's, it would give a very large item. But there were
also 25 miles of gravel walks which had to be kept in very
good order. If there were pebbles cm the walks the public
complained, and what was worse than complaint they left
the walks and went upon the grass, making a Sahara desert

of the parks. The distinction between the Ranger and the
First Commissioner of Works was, that the gatekeepers
were considered to be under the Ranger's department, and
the external boundaries came under the Office of Works.
There were 14 gatekeepers, who were paid something over
£l,OOO in the aggregate. With regard to the flowers, the
cost was very trifling, as they were reared in pits in the
vicinity of Kensington-gardens. As to the proposed ride
in Battersea-park, permission was given to builders and
contractors to deposit earth in a portion of the park to make
an embankment, and he proposed to form a ride upon the
surface, after the plan of Rotten-row. With regard to the
band in Regent's-park, he thought it right to have a stand
made for it; for he saw that a band had been performing
for several years in that park, which had been attended by
thousands of persons without the slightest inconvenience or
abuse of the authority of the Government. (Hear.) He be-
lieved the band answered the purpose very well, and he was
told the audience were delighted with it. The right hon.
gentleman then referred to the expenditure at Kew, and said
that the port ion of the conserNatory already completed cost
£32,000. The expense of the wings, if they should be erected
according to the original design, would cost £14,000, and the
Government did not feel themselves justified in undertaking
that expenditure. He had bean asked what had become of
the spring in Hyde Park. He really could not tell how it
disappeared ; but in point of fact it was not a spring, and
when the gravel through which the water had percolated
was cut the water took another channel. As to the monolith
erected in the place, and which gave so much offence to the
taste of hon. members opposite, it was nothing else than a
toulder of granite from Cornwall, which was placed there
without any attempt at ornament. lie thought it excited
great admiration. (Laughter.) The cost of it was about
£2OO, which was almost entirely for the carriage of it from
Cornwall to its present position. He was rather astonished
to hear the hon. gentleman opposite complain of the band
which played in the Cambridge Enclosure, St. James's
Park, for he believed it, was greatly admired.
Mr. PEACOCKE wished to put a question in the name
of the great riding interest, and that was whether the grass
would be opened to equestrians on the north side of the
Serpentine, and whether Kensington Gardens would be also
thrown open to them ?
Mr. G. BENTINCK said there was no greater farce
than was enacted year after year in committees of supply in
that house. The members of the Ministerial bench were
pledged to stringent economy, and the members of the front
Opposition bench, who desired to go across, were pledged
to still more stringent economy, and thus the whole thing
became a farce. He knew his appeal was all in vain, but
still he would ask was it right, was it decent, in a time of
great general distress, to waste thousands of pounds upon
the luxurious adornment of the metropolis, and in orna-
menting the park for the idle and indolent? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH wished to explain that he did
not object to the band, but to the place selected for the per-
formance, which, being close to the houses, gave offence to
a great many people.

Sir M. RIDLEY wished to know the cost of the boy and
dolphin in Hyde Park ?

Mr. COWPER said he was not able to tell the cost, but
he would make inquiry. With regard to opening the grass
on the north aide of the Serpentine, the experiment had
been tried last year, and it was found that it interfered
with the free enjoyment of persons on foot, and therefore
they only proposed to open the south side. And as to Ken-
sington Gardens, no arrangements could be made for the
accommodation of equestrians in consequence of the road by
the bridge being thrown open to carriages. (Hear, hear.)
Lord R. CECIL said that he concurred in the observe
tious of the hon. member for West Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck)
that their committees of supply were a farce. Ireland was
starving, and Lancashire was being kept up at the public
expense, and yet there was an increase for " luxurious
adornment" of £200,000 ; the estimates in this respect hav-
ing been raised from £700,000 to £900,000.
Lord PALMERSTON defended the votes, and said the
reason wby hon. members were so angry was, that the ac-
counts were so well managed and so carefully investigated,
that it was found they were not susceptible of reduction. If
they looked at the cost of the Bois de Boulogne, in Paris,
they would find that it was something like £l4O a day, or
£70,000 a year, nearly as much as the whole of the parks
of the metropolis. He believed that the enjoyment derived
by the people from the parks was an equivalent for the ex-
penditure. (Hear, hear.)
The committee divided. The numbers were—
For the vote

Against 67
Majority -48
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £36,444 to complete the sum of £46,444 for
the Houses of Parliament,
Mr, COWPER, in answer to a question from Lord
John Manners, said he had deferred coming to any deci-
sion with respect to the enclosing New Palace-yard from
the Clock Tower until the buildings on the southern side
of Bridge-street were pulled down, and which would be
finally cleared away by the end of this year, or at latest
in the course of next year. If the building was continued
along from the Clock Tower, it might be employed ad •
vantageously for public offices. Nothing, however, would
be done for the present, and an opportunity would be given
to the house for deciding on whether it should be enclosed
or thrown open.

Captain KNOX inquired if it was intended to widen Par-
liament-street from the Treasury to the Houses of Parlia-
ment ?

Mr. COWPER said the report of the committee on this
subject was still under consideration.
Col. FRENCH urged the necessity of something being
done towards improving the dining-rooms. Mr. Barry's
estimate was too high for the committee to take upon itself
to recommend that it should be carried out. It was useless
to complain of the contractor if he had not the means of sa-
tisfying the demands of hon. members. If the Government
were not disposed to move in the matter, it would be neces-
sary to bring the subject in a definite form before the house.
He did not wish to press the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Cowper) for a reply then if ho was not prepared to give an
answer.

Mr. lIUNT asked the Chief Commissioner of Works if
it was possible to construct an underground passage from
the Clock Tower to the North side of Bridge-street, so as to
avoid the dangerous crossing at the end of Westminster-
bridge, for the convenience of hon. members and those at-
tending the Houses of Parliament.
Sir J. SHELLEY called attention to the state of the
stonework of the llouses of Parliament. He had been over
the building and minutely examined it, and unless some-
thing were done to preserve it, the ornamentation of the
houses would be entirely destroyed. Several experiments
had been tried, and all of them had failed but one—viz.,
Daines's process for vulcanising stonework. That process
had been favourably reported on by Mr. Sydney Smirke,
Mr. George Gilbert Scott, and Mr. Arthur Ashpital. He
understood Mr. Daines had been told that he might go on
applying his own process at his own expense, but he (Sir
J. Shelley) thought that as so many had been assisted in
their experiments at the expense of the Government, and
had failed, it was but right that the Government should
assist Mr. Daines with a grant of public money.
Mr. ROGERS expressed a hope that whatever alterations
were made in the refreshment rooms, nothing would be
done that would interfere with the proper ventilation of that
part of the building.
Sir M. PETO called attention to the decay observable in
the frescoes, and hoped that means would be adopted to
discover its cause and arrest its progress.
Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH wished to know if the item of
£6,530 for the Speaker's stables would cover the whole ex•
pense.

Sir M. RIDLEY asked for explanation with regard to
the twelve statues of British sovereigns in chronological
series which were to be placed in the Royal Gallery.
Mr. G REGORY pressed for a like explanation, and also
for information with regard to the progress of Mr. Dyce's
fresco. He wished to know if any representation had been
made to Mr. Dyce as to the necessity of carrying out the
engagement for which he had been paid. If Mr. Dyce were
n,t, then he should be prepared to characterise his conduct
as scandalous. (Hear, hear,) In regard to the statues, by
means of which British art was to have been advanced, it
appeared to him that they were about to be monopolised by
Mr. Monroe and Mr. Thornyeroft.
Mr. COWPER admitted that it was desirable that some
means should be adopted to preserve the stone of the house,
but the report of the scientific commission, which had been
appointed in the matter, would not justify him in proceed-
ing with any of the plans which had been suggested for the
purpose. He admitted also that the report of the commis.
sion, as to the enlargement of the dining-room, deserved
attention, but he should require some time before deciding
on it. A tunnel across Bridge-street could only be made
when the embankment was being constructed ; and as to
the Speaker's stables, the whole expense would be covered
by the vote. Mr. Dyce had assured him that he was going
on with his work as rapidly as the state of the wall on
which he was engaged would allow ; and as to the statues,
of the six which had been sanctioned four were distributed
between Messrs. Brown, Woolmer, Thernyeroft, and
Monroe. The remainder would be given to other sculp-
tors.

Mr. TITE, as a member of the committee to whom had
been entrusted the investigation of the decay of the stone
of which the houses of Parliament were built, could state
that as yet the committee had been able to come to no con-
clusion upon the subject. It would seem, however, as if
the decay, after proceeding to a certain point, stopped.
Mr. CONINGIIAM ridiculed the application of oil and
sulphur to stopping the decay of the stone.

Lord It. CECIL condemned the system of paying film
artists employed about the decorations of the house in ad-
vance. He had no doubt that if Mr. Dyce had not been
paid in advance he would have been done long ago.
The vote was then agreed to, the chairman reported pro-
gress, and the house resumed.

VICE ADMIRALTY COURTS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
CAYMAN ISLANDS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
ALKALI WORKS REGULATION BILL

This bill was read a second time.
CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL.
On the motion for the consideration of the Lords' amend-
ments,
Mr. HUNT moved that tko house should disagree with

the Lords' amendment with reference to the clause throw-
ing the expense upon the boroughs.
Mr. VANCE seconded the motion.
The house divided. The numbers were—
For the amendment ,40
Against it
Majority
The amendment was therefore lost, and the Lords'
amendment was agreed to,

FORT ERIN HARBOUR (ISLE OF MAN).

This bill was read a second time.
AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE TREATY BILL.

On +he second reading of this bill,

Lord PALMERSTON said it was but right to the
United States Government to point out why this bill had
been introduced. It was well known that for many years
the African slave trade was sheltered by the protection of
the American flag. Last year the United States Govern-
ment, in the handsomest manner, agreed to a treaty by
which that protection was to be no longer given. (Hear.)
It was agreed by that treaty to give mutual right of search,
and constituting mixed tribunals for the trial of vessels
caught in the slave trade, and other means connected with
their adjudication. (Hear.) It was found that the extent
of the range to which these operations applied was not
sufficient, and this year the Government of the United
States agreed to a supplemental article which extends to
the neighbourhood of the Island of Madagascar the right of
search, which was confined in the first instance to the
narrower limits. It was but due to the liberality of the
United States Government to point out to the country end
the house that the bill which passed last year as a matter of
form, and without attracting sufficiently the attention of
the country—it was but just to that Government which had
behaved in so liberal a manner, that a matter of so much
int.-rest to this country as this second treaty should be
marked by some attention being paid to it by that house.
(Hear, hear.)

After a few words from Mr. Cave, Mr. Coningham, Mr.
Buxton, Mr. Torrens, and Mr. Kinnaird, all of whom ex-
pressed gratification at the measure,

The bill was read a second time.
OFFENCES (SOUTH AFRICA) BILL.

This bill was re-committed, for the purpose of amend-
ment.

The New Zealand Boundaries and Courts of the Church
of Scotland Bills were read a third time and passed.
The Admiralty Court (Ireland) Bil was wtthdrawn.
THE EXHIBITION BUILDING.

Lord FALMERSTON gave notice that he should move
the vote in regard to the purchase of the Exhibition Build-
ing on Thursday week, instead of next Monday, as he first
intimated.

The house adjourned at twenty minutes to two o'clock.

ST. THOMAS'S HOSPITAL.

A public meeting was held yesterday evening at
the Bridge-house Hotel to consider the insufficient
provision now made to fulfil the objects of the
charity of St. Thomas's Hospital, the unnecessary
delay in fixing the site for the future hospital, and
the equal unreasonable desire on the part of some
of the governors to remove the hospital to a dis-
tance from the poor of the neighbourhood. The
chair was taken by Mr. John Locke, M.P., and
there were present Mr. Ruffle, guardian and ves-
tryman of St. George's, Southwark ; Mr. Goddard,
vestryman of Lambeth ; Dr. Allen, Rector of St.
George's, Southwark; Dr. Evans, Dr. F. Jones,
vestryman of Christchurch; Mr. Freeman, guar-
dian of Camberwell ; 111 r. Legge, member of the
Metropolitan Board of Works ; Mr. Vickars, Mr.
Newman, vestryman of St. Saviour's ; Mr.
Denny, vestryman of Camberwell; Mr. Park,
vestryman and Guardian of St. George's ; and many
other inhabitants of the parishes surrounding the
locality in which the hospital has hitherto been es-
tablished,

The CIIAIRMAN said the question to which the at-
tention of the meeting was about to be called had
been for two or three years before the public. It,
Was one of great Importance to the inhabitants of
that densely populated district. It referred, as those
present a ere aware, to the future site of St. Thomas's
Hospital. The rights claimed by the inhabitants of
Southwark, in regard to that hospital, were unde-
niable. The hon. gentleman then traced the his-
tory of St. Thomas's Hospital from *he year 1213
down to the present day, and showed that by vari-
ous charters and grants the building and lands
called St. Thomas's Hospital were granted for the
benefit of the poor of Southwark. He considered
it right to enforce this point. In The Sun
newspaper the other day it was stated that it was a
strong point in the consideration of the question,
and that if it could be established, as he (Mr. Locke)
had no doubt it could, that the poor of Southwark
had a right to the benefit of the hospital, it would
very materially affect the question at issue. But,
setting aside the legal rights of the people of South-
wark, he would refer to their social claims. St.
Thomas's Hospital had hitherto existed amidst a
dense population—upwards of 190,000 in South-
wark, and, joined to the borough of Lambeth, not
less than half a million. It was obvious that no
portion of the metropolis was better entitled to
retain that establishment among them. By the
charter of Edward VI. the hospital belonged to
the people of Southwark, and there was no pre-
text whatever for removing it from them. In
looking into the records of the City of London he
found that as late as 1808 the Corporation upheld
its right and authority over the hospital ; but a dis-
pute had arisen between the governors of the hos-
pital and the corporation, and it was finally enacted
by the 22d of George 111., chap. 77, that 12 gover-
nors should be appointed by the city to assist in
the governing of the hospital. He would say with
regard to the question more immediately before the
meeting, that a short time ago, at a meeting of the
governors of the hospital, his friend Alderman
Lawrence came forward and boldly reversed a
decision of the Grand Committee, and by that
reversal it was decided that the Grand Committee
could not carry or take the Hospital of St.
Thomas out of Southwark unless they had the
sanction of the whole body of the governors. But
when they found that the whole body consisted
of 208, and that only 50 attended the meeting
at which Alderman Lawrence carried his motion,
it was quite obvious that unless the meeting he
was then addressing aroused the dormant feeling
that seemed to affect all that concerned St. Thomas's
Hcspital, nothing would be done to advance the ob
ject they all desired to see accomplished. He
trusted that the people of Southwark would speak
out:and toll the Grand Committee, as it was called,
that they knew what their rights were, and that
they were determined to see them enforced. The
hospital had been taken down, and the question
was, where is it to be rebuilt ? It was for that
meeting, by their united voices, to decide that ques-
tion. It was for them to determine whether they
would assist those who wished to benefit the poor
inhabitants of Southwark, or whether they would
tamely submit ta be overriden by the Governors of
St. Thomas's Hospital. (Cheers.)
Dr. RENDLE then moved the following resolu-
tion :

"That St. Thomas's Hospital, named in the
Charter of Edward VI. The House of Poor People
in Southwark,' having been established in South-
wark now more than 300 years as a place and house
for poor people to be there relieved and maintained,
and having before its removal aafforded relief an-
nually to upwards of 40,000 persons, mostly of the
immediate neighbourhood, suffering from illness
and accidents—it is the opinion of this meeting that
the hospital should be rebuilt upon a site as near as
possible to the poorer population of the neighbour-
hood in which it has always been, and to which it
has done so much good service; and that in no case
should it be rebuilt more distant from the old hos-
pital than the site now occupied by Bethlem, that
behind Newington Church, or that known as the
Surrey Gardens."

He believed that if the Governors had been pleased
to do so, they might have kept St. Thomas's
Hospital in perfect safety. The railway company
did not wish to touch the hospital, and what-
ever little injury was done the company was quite
prepared to remedy. They offered to build new
wards if the Governors had wished to have them
erected ; but since the hospital had been taken
down it was their duty to have it erected elsewhere.
Ho strongly advocated the site on which Bethlem
Hospital now stood. There was no excuse at all for
removing the building into the country. As to the
proposition for dividing the hospital into two, one
part in town and the other in the country, he hoped
that that would never be entertained. In referring
to the list of governors, Dr. Rendle observed that
the greater portion of the 208 governors of St.
Thomas's Hospital were merely honorary members,
and that the really governing body resolved itself
into the grand committee, which was controlled by
the officials, and he then referred to the opinion

formerly expressed by Mr. Tite against the removal
of the hospital from its present site, end asked why
that gentleman should ❑ow be so strong an advocate
for the erection of the hospital elsewhere.
Mr. NEWMAN:sccondcd the resolution.
Mr. LEGGE suggested that the words " Surrey-
gardens" should be left out of the resolution. He,
indeed, did not approve suggesting any particular
site, as there were many other sites from which
they might make a choice. There were places in
the New Kent-ruad a few hundred yards from the
Elephant and Castle; but his anxiety was that the
hospital should be kept in the borough of South wark.
Mr. BRICKNELL said the Surrey-gardens was as
central a spot as could be found.
Mr. VICKERS complained of the great delay that
had been allowed to take place i❑ the settling of this
question by the governors of St. Thomas's Hospital,
and said it became the duty of the people to bring
it to a close.
Dr. E B. JONES observed there was no reason
why St. Thomas's Hospital should have been re-
movsd. The railway could have been made without
touching the building ; but he at the same time
approved the site of Bethlem for St. Thomas's Hos-
pital, which, under all the circumstances, he con-
sidered the best plan to be adopted.
Mr. FREEMAN strongly deprecated the removal
of the hospital any distance from the borough of
Southwark.

The resolution was then put and carried unani-
mously.

Dr. FREDERICK JONES moved—

" That a deputation be appointed by this meeting
to join the Committee of Parishes for the purpose
of waiting upon the Governors of St. Thomas's Hos-
pital with a copy of the resolutions now passed, and
that the deputation be instructed respectfully, but
firmly, to request their most serious attention to the
subject, and also a second interview, as soon as con-
venient, for their decision. That, if it should be
deemed necessary, the deputation should also seek
an interview with the governors of Bethlem, and that
afterwards another public meeting should be called,
if in the opinion of the Committee of Parishes it
should appear desirable."
He mentioned some statistics, showing that before
the removal of the hospital there were 496 beds, and
that now there were only 207 beds. In May, 1862,
there were medical casesi admitted 66, surgical cases
23 ; but in May, 1863, there were only 16 medical
cases and 10 surgical cases. Applications for ad-
missions had been proportionally reduced. He
strongly supported the scheme for obtaining the
site of Bethlem Hospital.
Mr. M. GODDARD seconded the resolution,which
was unanimously adopted.
A vote of thanks was then passed to Dr. Rendle
for the exertions he had made in carrying out the
objects of the meeting, and a similar vote having
been carried to the chairman the meeting separated.