The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-22 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

II 0 USE OF LORD 5, FEnttriAly 21.
The LORE CnAscELroa took hip seat at Dive minutes past
Five o'clock.
Lord tin NVON presented a petition from a parish in the

a.. tv of Devon, and also from Mowbray, against -tile abolition ..-,!•T`' • • , ea
j theee tedritequence of that insulation, and because ido not
of Church Rates.
The Bishop cif LONDON said that he had a number of
by stating it compromise my opinions, or that of any other in-
petitions, especially frontparishes in the county of Essex, to pre-
dividual—but there is another
ai upon which I, as a
nd, haminthave strong opinions,
sent against the Abolition of Church-rates. There were some member of the Church of England,
pyre and which I will not hesitate now to avow. My Lords,liarities attending those petitions. In one parish the gait-
in lookine round this country, I believe that few indeed
tioners represented •19-:,Orbs of those who paid Churchsrate!, will be the places in which the members of the Church
In another parish there was not one who had not signed the peti-
tion ; and in another, the only four Dissenters who were of England do not out-number to a degree hardly conceivable,
!title to write their Church-rate. The Right Reverend
names, had signed a petition against the not only individual sects of Dissenters, but all their sects put
abolition
together. lam not aware, from all the experience I have had in
of the
Prelate then presented petitions from (among other places) those parts of England with which lam cemnected, in which the
Great o.lkley, Mile End, Little Oxley, Great Oxley,
Dissenters, I do nut mean one sect, but all the sects of Dissen-
St. Martin's Colchester, Hoxton, Redwinter, Westbuieg,hold, tars, are not infinitely inferior in numbers to the Church of Eng-
land. Now, my Lords, having stated that I should hail that day
nerd's, Little Clacton Chipping Ongar, Great Clacton,
Greet Sainford, Great Amwell, Broxburn, Rickling, St. Leo-
as one of the utmost glory to the Church, when the Anglican,
,
Wormingford, Grcenstead, and Wicks. the Independent, the Presbyterian, and the Baptist, will all
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented petitions meet there to worship—l go further, and say this, that if it
from Ely, and the clergy of the Archdeaconry of Stafford, could be proved to me that in any parish in England any
against the abolition of Church-rates,
of EXETER presented a petition from a
other sect is more numerous than the Church of England, I,
The Bis
as a member of that Church, should have no objection to sur-
renderhop to that sect the ecclesiastical property within that parish.
parish in the county of Devon, signed by every rate-payer
except one, against the abolition of Church-rates. Also pelt-
I think, my Lords, if the members of Dissenting congregations
tions from Bradley, Littleton, and Sidmouth, to the same effect. were more numerous in any place for a certain length of time
than the members of the Church of England, they would
Lord BROUGHAM said he had a number of petitions to be entitled to be invested with all Ecclesiastical rights.
present, he could not say to the same effect as those which had Whether the majority of those present or not Ido not know,
jest been presented—(Laughter)—but the whole perfectly
different, and all going in an entirely different direction. but I well know that the majority of your Lordships' House,
who are not present, will think this doctrine highly sub-
The Noble and Learned Lord then presented petitions from versive of the Church of England.—(Hear.) It appears
(among other places) Fakenham, Milford, Honiton, Staines, to me that the very solid Bounds of the Church of England
Union-street, High-street, I3oroughr Ipswich, Dunkeld, and are, and on which it must rest—the grounds of immutable
various other places, in Scotland and England, in favour of justice ; and it does not appear to me that the Church of Eng-
the abolition of Church-rates.
land being the superior, ought to assume those attributes which
Dunstable, and other places, praying
Lord MELBOURNE presented a petition from Rochester, ought only to be given to her inferiors in number. My Lords,
Church-rates. for the abolition of
tear I have taken up too long a time in stating my opinions
The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE said that he had a peti- on the subject; therefore I shall only further occupy your time
by laving these numerous petitions on your table.
tion to present, which was very numerously signed by the in-
habitants of the city and county of Limerick, praying that The Archbishop of CANTERS UR. Y said he had heard,
partly with pleasure, and partly with feelings of a different
their Lordships would pass a well-considered system of
nature, the speech of the Noble Lord. He understood the rule
Poor-laws for Ireland. The Noble Lord then proceeded to
say, that he held in hia hand a paper, in pursuance of a me- of the [louse to be, that these discussions ought not to he'brought
forward upon the presentation of petitions. At the same time his
tion made by a Noble Baron opposite, on the subject of the respect for the Noble Lord betrayed him into an' irregu.-
amount of money borrowed on Church-rates. He had found larity of the same kind, though he should not occupy much
that he should be compelled to wait for a considerable time if of their Lordships' time. He entirely concurred with the
all the parochial authorities were communicated with, and he, Noble Earl in the wish expressed by him, that there might be
for the satisfaction of the Noble Baron and the House, would lay such an abundance of places of worship in the country, that no
on the table an abstract of the amount of the loans of money lent man, however poor, in whatever part of the country, might have a
on the security of Church-rates up to 1835, and he would now difficulty in finding a place of worship into which he might go.
move for a similar return up to the present time.—Agreed to. The Noble Earl had made an attack on what he had pleased
Earl FITZ WILLIA M presented a petition from the con- to call the Anglican Church of England. He did
gregation of Great Huntly, in Yorkshire, praying for the abo- not believe that that bore much on the present hierarchy.
lition of Church-rates ; he also presented a petition from As far as his recollection went, when the Test and Cur-
Rhode, in the Isle of 'Night ; and a number of petitions from poration Acts were imposed by the Government, the
various places in Yorkshire and Northamptonshire to the bench of Bishops made no opposition at all ; and surely
same effect. The Noble Lord then said, that if he presented the Noble Earl might have done some justice to the
those petitions under ordinary circumstances, he would have Bishops and the hierarchy of the present day.—( Hear, hear.)
considered it to he his duty to lay them on the table without The soreness felt by the Dissenters, on account of persecu-
speaking a syllable in respect to them; and he formed this tions which had ceased a certain number of years ago, was not
opinion because he presumed that when any person presented felt certainly as regarded Church-rates. The Noble Earl
a petition, that individual coincided generally in its prayer. told their Lordships that the Dissenters would no longer pay
It had been his duty to state, however, that notwithstanding Church-rates. Ile begged leave to say he doubted whether
the kindness of those who had placed these petitions in his the Dissenters themselves concurred in the view taken by
hands, that it would not be in his power entirely to coincide in the Noble Earl of this question.—( Hear, hear.) He
their views, and to support their objects; they had neverthe- suspected that the Dissenters would disclaim the apology
less persisted in the kindness by which they were actuated, made by the Noble Earl for their proceedings. He (the
in the first instance, and had requested that he would still be Archbishop) believed that the proceedings of the Dissenters
the channel by which they would communicate with their Lord- were not confined merely to the abolition of Church-rates.
ships' House ; there was therefore no other course left for him to He had seen accounts of many of their meetings, and had
pursue, than to present these petitions to their Lordships, who read their resolutions, and it appeared to him that the dis-
he was sure would be also of opinion that he had no other senters would not be satisfied with personal exemption from
course to pursue in presenting them, than to state that he did Church-rates, as long as anything was charged, and they further
not coincide in the views of the petitioners.—.( Hear, hear.) carried their arguments to the utmost extent—so far, that they
It did appear to him that, if there was any duty morn incum- said they would not be satisfied whilst there remained any dif-
bent than another on the Legislature, it was that it should take ference between Churchmen and Dissenters. He did not
especial care that there should not be a corner of the kingdom know whether the Noble Earl was speaking his own individual
in which the humblest subject of his Majesty should not be able opinions.—(Cries of " No" from Lord Titzwilliam). He
to point out some edifice in which he had an interest, and into imagined from what he had seen in the Newspapers that
which he had a right to enter and pay his devotion to his others entertained similar opinions.—( Hear, hear.) Ile
Creator._( Hear, hear.) He knew not, and he sought not to regretted to be obliged to trespass on the time of their Lord-
enquire, what plans were entertained for the purpose of re- ships, but there was one thing to which he begged to call at
lieving those who cottscientiously dissented from the Church of tention. The Noble Earl complained of the proceedings of the
England, from the payment of Church-rates; but these persons Ecclesiastical Commission, and it appeared that the Noble
conceived the payment of those rates to be a grievance, and he Earl wished to carry Reform a great deal further. He begged
was free to confess that it was not unnatural they should so to differ from the Noble Earl in that respect. As to the diei-
conceive that tax to be a grievance.—( Hear.) He blamed not sion of dioceses, the proper time for the Noble Earl's speech
them, but he could not agree with any plan which, as he had would have been when that subject was before them. He hoped
said before, would deprive the meanest subject of his Majesty when the subject was before the House ho would be able satis-
of the means of being always able to enter an edifice in factorily to convince their Lordships' that the course pursued
which he had an interest and to worship his God.—( Hear.) by the Ecclesiastical Commission was correct, and more likely
While he said this he feared he must add that much as he ap- to lead to general satisfaction than that recommended by the
prehended of this sourness on the part of our Dissenting Noble Earl.
brethren was due to the Church of England itself. The The Bishop of EXETER said that in regard to the repeal
truth must he spoken, and he would speak it boldly, that the of the Test and Corporation Acts, it was not the hierarchy
Church of England had not been so tolerant and indulgent which had originally devised them—the Legislature had de-
towards Dissenters as perhaps they were now beginning to feel vised them, and clung to them for a long period as the best
it would have been their interest to have been.—(Cheering.) safeguard of the Protestant Constitution; but the Acts bay-
As he stated before, he knew not what plans were in contem- ing been passed it was not to be considered that the hierarchy
plation, or by having recourse to what it was intended to sup- were to be the first to advocate their repeal—(Hear, hear,)
ply the deficiency that would be created by the abolition of —but when the measure for their repeal was brought forward,
Church-rates. But it was impossible to conceive that there the hierarchy were found amongst the leading persons to
would be any mode of supplying that deficiency, which could second it. And now in regard to a yet earlier period, an Act had
have the effect of making the people of England feel that been passed in the House of Commons of the most intolerant
they would 'have, as a community, an interest in the character, which would also have passed through the House
maintenance of these edifices.—(Hear, hear, hear.) As he of Lords, but for the Christian liberality of the Right Re-
said before, and he spoke it boldly in the presence of the 'Trend Prelates who sat there in that period. As to the pro-
hierarchy of the Church of England, much of the sourness posal which had been thrown out by the Noble Earl, it was
which existed in the minds of the Dissenters—much of those not the first time that it had been made, and he considered
feelings by which he feared they were actuated towards the that the Noble Earl had taken the idea from a pamphlet
Church of England—was due to the Church itself.—( Hear.) respecting which it had been remarked, that if the
He trusted the Church would not rue its former conduct, but proposal it contained were carried into effect, the result
it was impossible for the Dissenters not to recollect, that so
would he, that every Church would be converted to a thcolo-
long as there remained a chance of maintaining those gical Noah's ark ; and he would now ask, what would be the
exclusive laws by which our Dissenting brethren were results to the cause of religion, if the same person could
excluded from the full enjoyment of the civil privileges hear, in the very same church, a Trinitarian clergyman
and rights of their fellow-countrymen, the hierarchy of in the morning, and a Unitarian in the evening ; or a
the Church of England did not join with those who Clergyman of the Church of England in the morning
sought to relieve Dissenting congregations from the and a Baptist in the evening ? He would now say in
stigma under which they so long laboured, and those respect to the censure passed by the Noble Lord on the
disabilities under which they could scarcely be said Ecclesiastical Commission, that he had heard it with satis-
to enjoy the rights of Englishmen. On the contrary, they faction mingled with regret ' • but when that question was exa-
stood up to the very last in the gap, and endeavoured to pre- mined, it would be found' that they were nearly right.
vent our Dissenting brethren from participating in the enjoy- Upon all questions of that sort there were different opinions,
ment of those privileges to which all their fellow subjects were and the object should be in discussing them not to give offence
entitled. He never could, however, consent to any measure the to any party. The time would come when it would be proper
possible effect of which could be that a single individual of the to enter fully upon the subject ; but thus much he would say__
humblest class in the remotest corner of England should be entertaining, as he did, the sincerest respect for the character
unable to say in regard to the Church of the parish in which of the Noble Lord, he must offer his respectful remonstrance to
he lived, that he had a right to go in there to worship Cod, the course of proceeding adopted by the Noble Lord,
and that on the proprietors of the land he had a right to who had come down to the House and delivered himself
call for its maintenance. It would appear that the hierarchy at considerable length, and with much force, when he should
of England would have been wiser, it they had half a century have waited for the opportunity when the subject was before
ago undertaken these measures of change in the ecclesiastical the House, and when they would be better prepared to an-
arrangements of this country, which were at that time ob- swer it. Ile did not think it proper to say a word more
viously necessary. He trusted, however, that those who were on the subject. He trusted he had not offended the
now at the head of the hierarchy, would be wiser than their Noble Lord ; but when a general imputation was made upon
predecessors. He did not know that he should have another the body of which he was an unworthy Member, he had felt it
opportunity of addressing their Lordships upon this subject, right to recall to the Noble Lord circumstances which he
and he hoped that he would be allowed to express one or two ` should not have forgotten.
observations which had been forced upon his mind in consi- . Viscount MELBOURNE—His Noble Friend had acted
daring this question in all its bearings. In the first with the fairness of character which had always distinguished
place, it could not be denied by any man attached him in alluding to a petition on the subject of Church-rates,
to the Church of England—by any man who was desir- in which the petitioners had most prudently and wisely ex-
one of seeing that Church more deeply rooted in the affec- pressed their determination to comply with that tax. lie en-
tions of the people—that great changes were neces- tirely agreed with his Noble Friend that in every parish there
sary. A great attempt, indeed, at change had been made, at should be an edifice connected with the Established religion,
something which its authors were pleased to call Reform, in a to which all classes and sects of his Majesty's subjects should
measure which, he could not help saying, was most opposite have free and unrestricted access. He agreed in the principle laid
in its nature to the name by which it was designated.— down by his Noble Friend, and he begged to say, although it
( Hear.) It was brought forward by those aho called was not his intention to go into any details upon a matter which
themselves at once Reformers and Conservatives. But would shortly come under their consideration—he would say
in point of fact, that measure was neither Reforming nor Con- on the part of his Majesty's sorrows, that it was not their
servative. It was not a Reforming measure, because it had re- intention to introduce into Parliament any plan which
moved nothing which called for immediate correction. It was would not provide for this tax in a better, more
not Conservatism, because it made useless and unnecessary prudent, more satisfactory, manner, and which would
changes. If he might presume—and he did it with great de- be less liable to insecurity and irritation, than was the state of
ference—to express an opinion on the subject, he should say , the law upon the subject at present. He believed that the
that they ought to have undertaken the task in a far bolder man- plan which his Majesty's servants had to propose would mi-
ner. They ought to have gone through with the deter- swer all the objects of his Noble Friend, and would;
mination of placing the ecclesiastical functions of this at the same time, avoid all those evils and inconveniences
country upon such a footing, that in each diocese it which were admitted on all hands to belong to the present state
would have been possible for the head of it well of the law, and to the mode of its administration. With respect to
and perfectly to superintend the whole clergy of that diocese. the allusion of his Noble Friend to the intolerance' of
But what had been dem: ? He would refer to those parts with other times, these were matters which belonged to his_
which he was personally acquainted. He would look to the great tory ; and however instructive the discussion of them
diocese of York, which he took to be a complete anomaly which might be, they had but little bearing upon the subject of
ought to be altered. It was held by the Archbishop of that petitions, or the question to which his Noble. Friend, in
see, as also the Right Reverend Prelate at the head of the presenting those several petitions, had directly referred.
Church—they hail each a diocese of their own, within their He also felt himself relieved from saying any thing in defence
archbishopric. Look at the situation in which that diocese of the Commission, by what had been said by the
was placed. It remained of a magnitude and extent, that it Rieht Reverend Prelate. His Noble Friend, who spoke first,
was almost impossible for any man, however great the ener- had said that they had altered too much and too little—that
gies of his mind, or the strength of his body—he defied they had made alterations with a disregard to all principles—
any man to superintend properly the diocese of York, as that they had broken in upon the fabric of the Church, and at the
it at present remained.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He gave seine time those alterations were useless, and for no good pur-
these as samples of the whole scheme, which appeared to pose. If they had done so they had very ill executed the
him, he was sorry to say, neither Reforming or Conservative. purposes they intended. His own intentions were to propose
it had changed much, but reformed little ; because, if he un- to the House such alterations and changes as should preserve
derstood the meaning of Reform, it was for a beneficial oh- the character of the Established Church, such as it had been
ject. But here it was without any beneficial result. If there established in this country for many generations,—that charac-
were any beneficial result it was so trifling that it was not worth ter which he believed had been highly beneficial, and that eh_
speaking of, and no advantae whatever had been derived racter to which the country' had been accustomed and attached,
from it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The House nright perhaps and which, in his opinion, ought not to be lightly altered—at the
think that he was indulging in digressions from the imme- same time preserving that character, it had been their objett
Mate object before the House, which was that he should lay to propose such measures as would increase that efficiency, and
before them the petitions he had so presented, praying for the enable it to accomplish all those ends for which it had been
abolition of Church-rates. If he had indulged in any digres- established.—( Hear.) For this they had been attacked upon
sien, he hail done so as the organ of those who had confided different grounds and on different sides. On one side they
those petitions to his hands, but he begged it to be understood had been told that they had been acting with the recklessness
that he could nut sanction by his vote any measure which of a Wet Tyler and a Jack Straw ; and on the other side
should contemplate the hare possibility of there being any with a timidity and hesitation that was perfectly contemp-
human being in the country who should see his Church tible, and unsuited to the character of the times.—( Hear.)
dilapidated, and not have the power of preventing that On the one side they had been told that there was nothing but
dilapidation. (Hear, hear.) He would say more ; et- a set of lay and ministerial discontents, who quite overpowered
Cached as he was to the Church of England, he thought the Right Rev. Prelates, and prevented their protecting the
that there was nothing would add more to the honour Church ; on the other hand, they were told there were a set
of that Church, not only that it should strip itself of every of artful, rapacious Churchmen, who did with them ex-
semblance of intolerance, but every symptom of jealousy of actly what they pleased. Considering the variety of those
any other sect. Though I cannot eensent—continued the accusations—considering their inconsistency with one
Noble Earl—to believe those whet ~may Pay- another—he could not help coming to the very
their feelings, as a member of the "-
ment of these rates is attended with so 'e grievance ur on same conclusion with the Right Reverend Prelate
think that the
should rejoice to see that day come iunrecit'llitChc hers of the Church of England and the DissEtehnnet'el;sn,dtol .who had spoken that evening, that when these propositions
whatever congregation they might belong, should' :ger:: semething of the just medium, and to have proposed that
I came to be considered, Ministers would be found to have hit
together to worship their Cod within the same walls. --as the fittest to execute the great objects for
Whenever that time. will come—whenever the hierarchy and which e. ",emission was appointed.—( Hear, hear.)
the clergy of the Church of England will say to the Di.saent- which that ' --Sure his Noble Friend that he agreed
In conclusion, he couto
in the main principle of his
p:.:ition, and that their object