The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-13 00:00:00

839

the constitutional rights and to the personal feelings of the
people. This scheme would be found to be a fallacy and
an impossibility. He ( Sir Robert Inglis) would take
this opportunity of exposing one fallacy into which the
Noble Lord had fallen, and which was not cot:fined to
the Noble Lord alone ; he meant the perpetually con-
founding education with instruction. He had committed
himself by saying that knowledge, unless it was accompa-
nied by religion, was an unmitigated evil. Of that he felt
convinced, while he was equally assured of the superior
instruction that was to be derived from education on
Christian principles. Here he came to the great point
advanced by his Noble Friend. He would contend, that as
long as there was a Church, that was &source from which the
people ought to have instruction, and not from that which
his Noble Friend said would be brought under the consi-
deration of the country. He did not think that the Noble
Lord had devised the mode of raising the required funds.
In that respect he did not think the Noble Lord had done
the good he might have done, and yet that was in his
power. On the one hand, he does not give the extent
of education he might have accomplished, but on the other
hand he does not waste the public money. He apprehended
that the only difference between the plan now proposed
and the other was this—the plan now is, that the funds
are to be filtrated through the hands of the Lords of the
Treasury, and the only difference was that by the other
plan they only had the power of giving directions to a
Committee of the National Society, or of be Society of Bri-
tish and Foreign Schools. This was the only reason
he had for expressing his opinion to the House, for there
did not appear to him to be a necessity for attempting to
make any alteration in the plan. Great efforts were mak-
ing now in matters connected with education, and by men
entitled to every respect. More success had attended
their efforts last year than had attended those they had
been taking for the last ten years, and he trusted a long
time would elapse before a stop ;vas put to those efforts by
the introduction of any novel plan.
Mr. WYSE wished, before the termination of the debate,
to offer some remarks on education, and to give his express

opinion on a subject in which he had long taken an interest.
He congratulated the lio:ise and the country at large at the
step which hal at last been taken. He ( Lord J. Russell) had
truly stated that this country was far behind other countries of
Europe in the nuxber of schools and in the quality of the edu-
cation given to the people, whenhe said that only one-fifth of
the population of this country were educated, and for a
proof of the truth of what he stated he need only refer to
returns before the House, which afforded sufficient evidence

of the gross state of ignorance in which a great proportion
of the people were immersed, and which from an early
period ought to have engaged the attention of this House.
When he reflected on the miserable trifles and the con-

temptible personal altercations which year after year occu-
pied their time, to the neglect of this great national ques-
tion, he was utterly astonished. This was a subject which
had engsged the attention of the whole of Europe, and yet
had beeis totally neglected in this country ; and he there •
fore received with exultation the notice of the Noble
Lord. The Church had not interfered on this sub-
ject to the full extent that bad been anticipated, and
therefore it was necessary that it should be taken up by
others. He, however, submitted to the House, that there
was no intention of forcing on the country the joint system
'of education. The intention was to allow every locality
to introduce that system most congenial to its own peculiar
views ; and that such system of intellectual education
should be given as prevailed in their districts ; and if this
were not done, it was not likely to obtain from the Govern-
ment of the Legislature the support of any grant of money.
Ho (Mr. Wise) certainly considered the joint system of
education to be the best, but that was in iegard to particu-
lar differences of religious opinion, and not to the general
principle. Tale country would be inferior to every other
country in the world, unless that joint system were intro- 1
auced which prevailed generally abroad. In other
countries there was a mutual forbearance in matters
of religion which, it was here said, it was impos-
sible to attain. In Russia and Prussia, as this
House well knew, such a system existed. In the schools of
Germany, the joint system of education was generally in-
troduced. Were we to believe, that in this country, peo-
ple's minds were more narrow, that they were.more "trem-
blingly alive" to the danger of their religion, than they
were in Continental kingdoms ? He (Mr Wise) had him-,
self seen Roman Catholics and Protestants in the humble
elementary schools, receiving religious instruction together
from their teachers, in their several religions. They had
commenced the same plan recently in Switzerland. He
was, therefore, entit!ed to assert that uniting Catholics and
Protestants in a cours3 of instruction in the same schools
together was not altogether attended with insuperable dif-
ficulties. tie was not one of those who would stand up
against it, if he saw a better plan about to be introduced,
if be saw such a plan he was perfectly willing
to support it. He had, howevesi clearly and de-
cidedly stated his opinion, both in Ireland and here,
as the Member of a Committee of the House, to
he in favour of the joint system. In every part of the
Continent schools bad been established on that system.
They might be under one red, but he insisted there should
be such schools, and he had heard nothing advanced against
the joint system but what was the result of prejudice. This
system, Mr. Wise contended, was not a-compulsory system.
The compulsory system of Austria was, he urged, rather a
foreign system introduced into that country, than a system
of their own, and there was no necessity for it whatever ;
but it was not true that there childten were required to
go to the schools of teachers of other religions. The,
compulsory system spoken of in this House was a mere
aggravation on the part of the speakers. The Noble Lord
only proposed to 'establish a recognised system. The
Board, who were to have the regulation of the whole, was
to consist of members of the Privy Council, instead of
other parties : but it never was intended to force educa-
tion on any class of the people. It was to be overlooked
by some body to whom the power was to be alone delegated.
But he should wish to state to the Noble Lord that this
body ought to be provided not merely with the distribution
of the funds, but that a good system of inspection ought to
acoompany jr. _._ Was It intended to be thus accompanii:d?-
A Board would have this great advantage, which time
Treasury did not possess : the Treasury could not exa-
mine into bills And trifling details, as a Board could, and
the Treasury would nut have a proper responsibility to this
House, a portion of whose duties under the proposed sys-
tem would betotake care that proper teachers of schools

were established in the country; for, unless there were
teaches s who were competent scholars, education could not
be accomplished as it ought to be, and to secure such men
considerable funds would be required for their support. It
was not to be expected that young men competent to the
office of education, would engage in it unless adequate re-
muneration were within their reach. In Ireland, for
instance, at the present moment, education was not of the
same efficiency in many schools, because the masters
of those sclviocls were accustomed to leave them
for places where they could receive a better pecuniary rc-

muncration—so that to secure efficient service there must

be fair and adequate remuneration. By masters thus re-
warded education would be carried on with advantage, and
be productive of the greatest benefit to the comxiunity
at large. If they do not believe that to be the cause,
why should not those books be as much liked, and why
should they not answer those purposes as well as if they
were distributed under another system ? In order that this
Legislature should be popular it must be founded on prin-
ciples that will give satisfaction. In Prussia, it is said that
those checks are adopted, but if so, they are so constituted
that no bad consequences attach to them. All my experi-
ence on this subject has shown me that this line of
conduct is, although others say to the contrary, so
satisfactory that it meets with universal approbation.
In that Gem-en-tent they are left to their own judgment
with regard to the books they choose. In adopting this
course there is not in Prussia that direct influence that is
said. He was of opinion that when this system of educa-
tion was introduced into the country, it would have the
same beneficial result.—( Hear, hear.) In other Protes-
tant states there is not these bad results from a system of
intermixing those of different creeds ; they are all joined
in unity. In German} are they worse than we are ?
( Hear, hear.) Their records of crimes are not more than
ours. If this be the effect of this joined system in the
Protestant States of Germany, why may not we expect the
same happy effects from it in this country ? It is not to
education, but to want of education that we can
trace those general deficiencies in the morals of
the peoplc.—( Hear, hear.) It is this we deprecate.
In proportion as they were every day extending the
franchise, in proportion as they were creating new
wealth, they could not properly direct that wealth but ,
by instruction, which should be given to every part of the
land, and not left to the contingencies of benevolence. Ho
should like to see a proper system of taxation for this pur-
pose in tie country. The time, however, had not come
for that, but he congratulated the House and the country
on the prospect of vindicating itself from the stain which
had so long rested upon it, from our deficiency in educa-
tion as compared with other nations.—c Hear, hear.)
Lord ASHLEY wished to put a question to the Noble
Lord, the Secretary of the Horne Department. He
wished to ask whether it was the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to continue the grant of 20,000/. to
the National School Society and the British and Foreign
School Society, for the purpose of school building ? He
was not in the House at the time the Noble Lord began

his speec;. and therefore did —not hear the allusions trade
either to himself or the sentiments delivered at the meet-
ing over which he had the honour to preside a few days
ago. When the proper time again arrived, he should be
ready to support the sentiments theft uttered, and make
clear the plans of education which they thought essential
to the well being of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) He
hoped they would not consider that he was bound to the
approval of the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, which,
with its Presidentship of the Privy Council, its Privy
Councillors, its normal schools, and teachers, was full of
the post serious and alarming übjectious.—(Tory cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in reply to the question
put by the Noble Lord, said the grant would be to the
same amount as before. It was under consideration whe-
ther there should be a grant to the British and Foreign
School Society, but it would not amount to 20,0001. at all
events.
Mr. GLADSTONE wished to know whether the
Board was to be composed entirely of persons who should
be unpaid, and could hold other offices ? He understood
the Noble Lord to say they were to be Privy Councillors,
but he did not understand him to explain whether they
would be persons actually holding other offices:—( Hear.)
There was another question of much more importance,
and relating to the most vital part of the subject. The Noble
Lord had given no intineition as to the rules by which the
proposed Board were to be guided in the distribution of the
funds, and he asked whether the House would make grants
in aid of schools where no form, or any form whatever
of religion wAs taught?—( lhar, hear.) The House was
aware that the Hon. Member opposite was an active mem-
ber of a Society lattly instituted, and termed the Central
Society of Education, the general object of which was sup-
posed to be to attain whether by direct cr circuitous means
to an universal establishment of schools, in which the busi-
ness of religion should be kept wholly apart from the general
business of education. He wished to know whether it
was understood that in the case of schools where no form of
religion was taught the Board was to bo free to make grants
of money from whatever sums the House might grant ?
—( Tory cheers. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, with regard to the first
I question, he should say, that at present the Members of