The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 10, 1863.

necessity of providing for the wants of the country ; and he
believed that these wants could be more cheaply provided
for by purchasing the land at Kensington than by the
scheme of his hon. friend, which was presented to them
under the name of economy. (Cheers.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON (who rose amid loud cries of
"Divide," and calls for "Osborne") said he would not
detain the committee long, but he did not wish the com-
mittee should come to a vote of this kind under a misappre-
hension. What he desired to know was whether, under
the first vote for lands and buildings, the Exhibition build-
ing, was included. (Cries of "Divide.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
were many points which of course had not been answered,
but with regard to the buildings mentioned they were
chiefly some refreshment-rooms which had been established
last year, and which overlooked the Horticultural Gardens.
He thought the best thing to do was to treat the building
as non-existent---(a laugh)—and take the land at the price
put upon it by the commissioners.
Mr. AYRT ON said the document on the table did not
state that they were to buy the land pure and simple. but
for the purpose of devoting it to science and art. (Hear,
hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that the land was not to be purchased with the view to put
it up for sale the day following; but for the purpose of
appropriating it to such objects in connection with science
and art as Parliament might think fit.

Lord ELCHO (who rose amid loud and general cries
" Divide") said that the object he had in putting his
amendment was to enable the committee to come to a
decision upon the question of the land independent of the
building. He would impress upon the committee the im-
portance of not letting the present opportunity pass.
(" Divide.") The question was not lightly to be dealt
with. For many years they had been in a state of
chronic congestion, and he trusted the near approach
of the dinner-hour would not induce hon. members to
treat this case lightly. (Cries of " Divide.") The noble
lord concluded by moving the chairman report progress.
The CHAIRMAN having put the question,
Viscount PALMERSTON said he hoped they would
make progress before they reported progress. (A laugh.)
Let them make up their minds to do something. He hoped
the committee would not agree to the motion ; there would
be no objection when they came to the next vote, if the
house wished for further information, to postpone it ; but
let them now decide upon the first vote. (Cheers.)
Mr. OSBORNE said it would require the tongue of De-
mosthenes, and the ability of the noble lord, to deal with the
question, on account of the slovenly way it was brought bo-
fore them. The noble lord had himself so mixed up the
question of the land and the large shed together, that it be-
came impossible for any gentleman to discuss the question
upon one point without the other. He had been much struck
with the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for he
had given the go-by to Capt. Fowke's enormities. (Laugh-
ter and cheers.) The hon. member then entered into some
criticisms upon portions of the estimates and the plans for
the new museums and galleries in connection with science
and art; and concluded by saying that the words might be
applied to the present vote which had once been addressed
to the statue of Liberty :—" 0 Art, what atrocities have
been committed in thy name 1"

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY (whose rising called forth a
very tempest of derisive laughter) said he rose merely upon
a point of form. (Renewed laughter.) He wished to ask if
the chairman had observel the irregular course of proceed-
ing in the manner the present estimates were laid upon the
table.

Mr. MASSEY replied that the manner in which her Ma-
jesty's Government had submitted the present estimates was
regular in point of form. (Cheers.)
The motion for reporting progress was then negatived,
and the committee divided upon the first vote of £67,000.

Fur the vote ..
Against it
Majority -132

(Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON then postponed the consideration
of the next vote to Thursday week. (Cries of "No, no.")
Mr. MALINS said the committee were prepared to go
on with the next vote.
Mr. OSBORNE protested against what had been said by
the hon, and learned. gentleman. Let the question be post-
poned.
While the house was in a state of excitement and uncer-
tainty the Chairman said the next vote was £853 to com-
plete the salaries of commissioners of education in Ireland.
The vote was agreed to ; but
Mr. O'REILLY protested against a vote being put at a
time when the noise of the house was so great that it could
not be heard.
Mr. WALPOLE, in order to convenience the hon. mem-
ber for the Tower Hamlets, postponed the statement on the
vote relating to the British Museum till Thursday week.
The sum of £3,500 for the London University was agreed to.
The sum of 11,559 for the Scotch Universities was agreed to.
On the vote of £1,396 for the Queen's University, Ireland,
Mr. V. SCULLY declared that the authors of the system
of mixed education in Ireland were influenced by a spirit of
proselytism. The noble lord at the head of the Government
refused to open the Botanical Gardens in Edinburgh on the
Sunday, although his personal opinions were in favour of
the proposal, because he knew how to yield to the bigoted in-
fluences which were so powerful in Scotland; but he could
make no concession to popular feeling in Ireland, nor did he
know how to conciliate the support of the Irish members.
Mr. P. DAWSON defied the hon. and learned gentleman
to point to a single case of proselytism which had resulted
from the establishment of the Queen's Colleges.
The O'CONOR DON said if they did not lead to prosely-
tism, they led to indifferentism.
Major O'REILLY pointed out that the system of educa-
tion established in Ireland was founded upon a directly op-
posite principle to that established in England.
Mr. F. POWELL thought the time had come when the
system of education in Ireland should be tested as in Eng-
land, by results.
After some observations from Mr. BLAKE and Mr.
HENNESSY,
Sir R. PEEL defended the vote, and urged that a mixed
education had been established in Ireland by Act of Parlia-
ment, and he could not of his own motion change it.
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of £3,800 for the Queen's College, Ireland,
Mr, V. SCULLY moved that the vote be reduced by
£l,BOO.
After some discussion, the amendment was negatived
and the vote agreed to.
A vote of £5OO for expenses connected with the National
Gallery of Ireland was agreed to.
Upon the vote of £1,500 for salaries of theological pro-
fessors in the College of Belfast,
Mr, HADFIEL D moved the reduction of the vote by
/1,050.
After some discussion, the committee divided.
For the reduction of the vote ,, 25
Against it
Majority .. —7O
The vote was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN said the question was, that he was
now to report the resolutions to the house.
Mr. CONINGHAM hoped the Chairman would not do
so, but would proceed to the vote on the National Gallery,
for which he had been waiting all the evening.
Other hon. members having concurred in the views of
Mr. Coningham.
The CHAIRMAN again put the question.
No member of the Government having risen, a division
was taken on the motion that the Chairman report the re-
solutions.
For reporting the resolutions
Against ....
Majority —BB
The Chairman then left the chair, and the house resumed.
SUPPLY.
Mr. MASSEY brought up the supply.
On the resolution relating to education,
Sir S. NORTIICOTE called attention to the manner in
which school managers were likely to be affected by the re-
vised code, and entered into the history of the compromise
which the Government made with the house, contrasting
the former position of school managers with that they now
held. He complained that a new code of instructions had
been sent to the various inspectors all over the country,
which appeared to depart from the terms of the agreement
made between the Government and that house.
Sir J. PAKINGTON complained that while it had been
laid down by the 136th article of the code that grants would
be made to endowed schools where the endowment did not
exceed 30s per scholar per annum, a minute was issued in
May last that in no case of endowed schools could grants be
made.
After a few words from Mr. W. E. FOR6TER and Mr.
Pt; cu,
Mr. LOWE denied that there had been any departure
from the arrangement of last year. The article to which
the right hon. baronet referred was also in the old code, and
was not exempt from revision, The agreement of last year
was in regard of certain specified articles, and from these
there had been no departure. In conclusion, the right hon.
gentleman complained of the number of hypothetical ques-
tions relative to the interpretation of the Minutes of Council
which had been put to him, and announced that he would
answer no more of them.
Sir W. MILES was perfectly astonished at the answer of
the right hon. gentleman, and the spirit of non-endurance
which it displayed.
Mr. HENLEY believed the country would hear the
statement if the right hon. gentleman with the deepest
alarm. If this new code was to go for nothing, and be
altered when the Government pleased, the mistrust at pre-
sent exhting would greatly and rapidly increese. (Hear.)
The resolution was then agreed to.
On the resolution of £82,826 for science and art,
Mr. A. SMITH called attention to the increasing cha-
racter of the vote. Ile complained that no satisfactory ex-
planation was given on a former night, and he moved the
reduction of the vote by £lO,OOO. He referred particularly
to the sum charged for the offices connected with the Ken-
sington Museum,
Mr. C. BEN riNeK seconded the motion. Ha was at a
loss to understand why the Government declined to give
any information on the subject.
Mr. LOWE explained that the increased expenditure was
for residences for the accommodation of the different officers
at South sensingtona The officers had not got into pos-

session, but when they were in occupation a deduction would
be made from their salaries equivalent to the rent.

The committee divided. The numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The resolution was then agreed to.
THE VOLUNTEERS BILL.

Upon the order for the third reading of this bill,

Mr. COX presented several petitions from volunteer corps
praying for a revision of the 21st clause, which gave the
power of summary dismissal to commanding officers.
Sir R. CLIFTON presented several petitions to the same
effect from various corps.
➢lr. HENNESSY moved that the bill be recommitted,
for the purpose of striking out the 20th clause, and insert-
ing another, making it lawful for the commanding officer
to suspend a volunteer from duty for three months, or to
assemble a court of inquiry, composed of himself and six
members of the corps, a majority of whom might order
the volunteer to be suspended or to have his name
struck off the muster roll. With regard to the clause he
had alluded to, he had reasons for venturing to say that
the volunteer body objected to it. The hon. gentleman pro-
duced a very large bundle of letters he had received from
volunteers in different parts of the country, and another
bundle from commanding officers, all complaining of the
operation of that clause of the bill. The hon. gentleman
also quoted the evidence of the Inspector-General of Volun-
teers, to the effect that the power of summary dismissal
ought not to be in the hands of an officer. If that bill were
passed, he believed the effect of it would be to destroy the
volunteer body altogether, and thus render an increase in
the income tax necessary. The power was not only con-
trary to the common law of the country, but to the War
Office regulations.

Colonel FANE said he knew there was but one feeling
throughout the county of Oxford, which was in opposition
to the bill as it at present stood.
Col. DUNNE said the power of dismissal existed already
in the militia corps.
Col. SYKES said he was of opinion that the power should
be retained ; but, to guard against abuse, he would suggest
that whenever a man was dismissed he should have his name
entered in a book, and the causes of his dismissal.

Mr. W. E. FORSTER said the clause appeared to him
to be compulsory; in the present War Office regulations it
was permissive, and found to work very well. There was
such a thing dB a court-martial in the army and militia,
but, from the constitution of the volunteer force, such a
court would be entirely inadmissable. If they did not allow
the bill to pass in its present shape, but adopted a clause
appointing a compulsory committee of inquiry, then he
should say that, in fairness, they ought to relieve com-
manding officers of all responsibility with regard to the
discipline of their men, and make the committee respon-
sible. The great majority of the volunteer force were satis-
fied with the provisions of the bill, and they were not likely
to be led away by allegations about arbitrary rule. (Cheers.)

Mr. COX said he differed from the hon. member who
spoke last, and begged to express his thanks to the hon.
member for King's County for bringing forward this
amendment. All that he and those who thought with him
asked for the volunteer was the same measure of justice
which was granted to every man in the army and militia.
He would assure the noble lord at the head of the Govern.
ment, and the noble lord the Under-Secretary for War.
that before long such a crowd of petitions would come in as
would show that either this clause must be given up or
there would be an end of the volunteer movement. The
hon. member then entered into an explanation with regard
to the deductions he had drawn from the evidence of Lord
Ranelagh before the commission. He thought the infer-
ence which he had drawn was a just one, but as the noble
lord had written to state that his interpretation was not cor-
rect, he begged to withdraw the observations he had made.
At the same time it was queer that men should give their
evidence in such a way that deductions such as he had
made could be drawn from it. (Oh, oh.)
Mr. 0. GORE said there was not one tittle in the evi-
dence of Lord Ranelagh from which the hon. member could
draw his deductions, and he was sorry to find an hon, mem-
ber sheltering himself under the shield of his privileges as
a member of Parliament to make scandalous and unfounded
charges against the noble lord.
Sir R. CLIFTON rose to order, and moved that the
words be taken down.
The SPEAKER said he should have risen himself to
say that after the observations made by the hon. member
for Finsbury, the words used by the hon. member
were not in accordance with the rules of debate ; and he
was sure a little reflection would show him that.

Mr. 0. GORE said he was sorry if he said anything dis-
respectful to the house in general. At the same time he
thought when a man was not there to defend himself there
should be better grounds for the allegations that were made.
(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER hoped the expression of regret on the
part of the hon. member would be satisfactory to the house.
Mr. CONING HAM thought the hon. member for Brad-
ford had endeavoured to explain away a matter that was
very arbitrary.

Mr. S. FIT ZGERALD asked the house if they had ever
heard a more scant, he would almost say so ungenerous an
expression of regret—(hear, hear)—as that which had fallen
from the bon. member for Finsbury—(hear, hear)—a charge
similar to that made by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. COX—I beg your pardon—l made no charge.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. FITZGERALD—WeII, a statement of the views of
Lord Ranelagh made by the hon. member.
Mr. COX—I made no statement of the noble lord's views,
(Laughter.) What I said was, that some commanding
officers appeared to regret that they had not the power of
flogging. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. FITZGERALD—That was true; but the hon,
member afterwards admitted that he applied the words
to Lord Ranelagh, although at the time he must have been
aware of the means which the noble lord had taken before
a magistrate to obtain a retractation of the imputation, and
gross libel. On that investigation the noble lord stated
that he had never given any evidence that could justly give
rise to such an imputation ; and, furthermore, that it was
totally and absolutely contrary to his opinion. (Hear,
hear.) Yet, after that denial, the hon. member repeated
the charge.
Mr. COX—I beg your pardon. (Laughter.)
Mr. FITZGERALD—The noble lord then wrote to the
hon. member, stating that the inference from his evidence
was unjust and unfounded, and thereupon the hon. member
had expressed himself as the house had heard. He repeated
that no more scant or grudging apology cotsld have fallen
from any gentleman. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of HARTINGTON could not regret the
discussion on the bill for the third time, as it afforded the
hon. member for Finsbury an opportunity of making some
retractation of the aspersions he cast on the noble lord the
other night.
Mr. COX—I cast no aspersions. (Laughter.)
The Marquis of HARTINGTON—AIthough he wished
that the retractation had been more free and generous—
(hear, hear)—than it had been. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member would lead the house to suppose that it was only
since the denial he had received from Lord Ranelagh that
he had been aware that what was attributed to that noble
lord were not his real sentiments ; but the hon.member must
have been aware that not only had Lord Ranelagh denied
the imputation, but that he had obtained an apology from
those who had spread the calumny. (Hear, hear.) As to
the proposal of the hon member for King's County, it was
almost the same as that which the house had twice nega-
tived, and although he respected the opinion of his hon.
and gallant friend (Col. Fane), he yet believed that volun-
teers as a body were in favour of the bill as it stood. (Hear,
hear.) Not one of the cases brought before the house in
opposition to the bill had been substantiated, and he believed
that it would give general satisfaction. (Hear, hear.) It
was hurried forward for the purpose of placing on the table
the Order in Council which would entitle the corps to a
grant this year.

Mr. KNIGIITLEY supported the bill, on the ground
that it did not alter the existing law.
The house divided. The numbers were—
For recommittal
Against
Majority against —lo7
Some amusement was created by Mr. Brand announcing
at first the numbers wrong, and giving the victory to the
minority.

The bill was then read a third time, and passed.
REGIMENTAL DEBTS, &c., BILL.
This bill was read a second time, and passed.
LONDON DIOCESS BILL.

This bill was road a second time.
PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMA-

TION BILL.

The house having gone into committee on this bill, on
recommittal,

Lord R. GROSVENOR moved that so much of the bill
as related to Rhyl Pier, and the provisional order relating
thereto, be struck out.

After some discussion the amendment was agreed to, and
the bill passed through committee.
The Militia Pay Bill and the Charitable 'Uses Bill were
read a second time.

The Sheep and Cattle (Scotland) Bill, and the Metropolis
Turnpike Roads Acts Amendment Bill were considered, as
amended, and agreed to.
The Trout, &c., Fishing (Scotland) Bill was thrown Gut
on a division by 37 to 12.
The Innkeepers' Liability (No. 1) Bill was read a third
tima and passed.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes past 2 o'clock.

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