The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-16 00:00:00

( Cheers.) And he should propose the adjournment of this dis-
c ussion till Monday.—(Cries of "Go on.") The Hon. Mem-
ber was proceeding, when
The SPEAKER put it to the House if the discussion
should be allowed to continue upon a question which the House
had no power to entertain.—( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. II UNIE,
Mr. WARBURTON suggested the adjournment of the
deb:ee until the consent of the Crown to this motion had been
s'gn.fied.—( Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER said that the Order of the Day for the
House resolving into Committee on the Civil List Bill having'
been read, the question which would naturally follow was,
that he (the Speaker) should leave the Chair. In the in-
terim, however, an Hon. Member had moved an instruction
to the Committee, which was of a nature which he thought
could not be entertained by the House. The question ur
was, whether the House would entertain another motion, ot
quite different class, and not connected with the subject mat
ter of the Bill, to intervene between the question that be
leave the Chair. He believed it was competent to an Hop.
Member to move an instruction to the Committee upon the
motion for leaving the Chair, but he was not aware that be
could move anything else.—( Hear, bear.)
Mr. T. ATTWOOD said a few words from under the
Gallery, w hich, however, did no reah us.
Mr. D. W. HA RVE Y, as het hadc moved an amendment
which he found, owieg to some form of the House, could not
be put without the consent of the Crown, should certainly
bow to the decision of the Chair and withdraw it.--( Hear')
At the same time, as he apprehended that it was quite COva'
petent to any Member at this stage of the proceedingsen cit!
move any motion which he thought proper by way of am
ment, he should now move that this debate be adjourned untl,
her Majesty's Ministers had signified that her Majesty hs"-
consented to allow the House of Commons to take the con-
sideration of the revenues of the Duchies of Cornwall and con-
sideration
caster into account is connection with the other hereditary roe'
noes of the Crown, and to make such appropriation of th°t
em
as they might think necessary. He (Mr. Harvey) could II
believe that there could exist any desire on the part of he
Majesty's Ministers to stifle so important a subject as this at
the present moment, because the House should recollect that
if it were not dealt with now, it could never in all pooit,f
be tacit up by them again. He should, therefore, take
sense of the House upon the amendment which they had J"--
read.
)lution

The SPEAKER reminded the House of the resolute a
the 24th of November, which declared " that upon &Ss
proprieted to orders, and a question being put fronlo
chair that an order of the day be read, no amendment shed eier
propssed, except that the orders of the day, or that any cr"_
set down for the same day, be now read ; but that this rcc,
latien shall not apply to the case of a Committee of SON/
or a Committee of- Ways and Means." He had alrea
stated that the order of the day for going into Comnaittee.°o'
the Civil List Bill had been read ; since then antinstructniee
had been moved to the Committee, which it was questio vie;
whether the House could entertain. But he thought it re_
not competent to any member to make any other motion P.
vious to his leaving the chair,' unless in the form of n°
struction to the Committee.
Mr. HUME asked whether the House was to understand
that an adjournment of this question could not be moved? _
The SPEAKER raid there was as question before ,t 7
Ilouse, unless the House were prepared to enter upon the 3L
mission of the instruction to the Committee moved by T.
Hon. Member for Southwark. If, on the contrary, this
that
struction were eithdrawn, the question would then be put
t'
be (the Speaker) do now leave the Chair.
Lord J. RUSEELL should move that the Speaker °d°
now leave the Chair."
Mr. C. BULLER would move that the Speaker shnt etla
not leave the Chair till Monday.—( A laugh.) Well, t"
he should never leave the Chair.—(Renewed laughter: an
d
" Order I")
The SPEAKER said it was essential that the Huse
should put its own construction upon its own resolution. Abe
question for the House to decide was, whether, consistentl
with the resolution of the 24th Nov., Members might MOY3 a
amendment to the question that he now leave the Chair. Le
An Hoe. MEMBER on the Opposition Bench moved that tn
resolution of the 24th of November be read by the Clerk.
The Clerk accordingly read the resolution in question. ,
Mr. AGLIONBY cbserved 'that the resolution which
had just heard read had arisen out of a report of a setae
Committee which had vat last session on the subject el tbe
public business of that House, and was intended to meet the
inconvenience which had resulted from the practice too ftc-
quently adopted by Honourable Members of selecting the
motion for the reading of an order of the day as an occasion
for bringing forward motions of their own totally irrelevant t°
the subject-matter of that order of the day. Such havinge
been the origin of the resolution of the 24th of November. it
thought that the present dilemma in the application of
might be t rid of, either by adhering to the spirit of tell°
resolution itself, which intended that the subject-matter of the
order of the day should not be gat rid of by irrelevant atrerwt:
meets, or by proceeding, in strict accordance with the words °f
the resolution, to the second order of the day. of
Lord J. RUSSELL said that with respect to the ferns
the amendment by which the question for the Speaker'
leaving the chair might be met, he believed that on former
occasions it had been usual to move that the Bill be COol:
mitted that day six months or that day three months, without
the introduction of any matter irrelevant to the subject-matter
of the Bill.
Mr. C. BULLER said it was his intention to move as 83
amendment that the Bill he committed on Monday. The,
e
revenues of the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were part
of the revellues of the Crown, and he (Mr. C. Buller)
thought it rather extraordinary that they should be allowed to
be retained in their present state, when every other branch 0a
the hereditary revenues of the Crown had been given up, eri
this, as it appeared, only on account of some barbarous feu"
rights which people chose to connect with the subject. Th°
only object which could be had in view in so doing was to re-
tain to tie' Crown, or rather to its advisers, the patronag
over the numerous little offices and sinecures attached to the
revenues. With respect to the Duchy of Lancaster he Peri
sonally knew nothing ; but with the offices of the Duchy
°
Cornwall lie was better acquainted. After referring to th.ei
late Committee on Church Property, the Honourable an"
Learned Member proceeded to observe that the very Fnulee
species of bad management which had been. found to 01e
;
in reference to Church property existed also in the affairs
of the Duchy of Cornwall ; and that so harassed and an-
noyed were the inhabitants by the vexatious restraints t°
which they were subjected, that nothing but a coil;
plcte reform of the system could satisfy them. Anienre,
the foremost of the grievances of which the inhabitants of tul"
locality had to complain was the system of tin duties. Tilero
were only four appointed coining towns in the Duchy, to (led
or other of which all the tin had to be taken before It ce° •
be disposed of, to pay the duty and be stamped. This pro-
duced a great delay, oaten obstructive to the arrangementl
the producer, to say nettling of the expense of t ransporra
The Duke of Cornwall was the only person in the kingdere
who was not bound by any term of prescription, and thercf°°o
a clam mice set up, arising at however distant a period, cc,
never be lost. In one case, that of a large miring prop to
ti e only evidence set up was the payment of threeeet °less
King John, and yet, that being held sufficient to proec,r
the property had once belonged to a Duke of Cornwawt
claim was established which nothing but an Act of Parliarleos
could take away. But the Duchy of Cornwall, beslfild
its prescriptive immunity from statutory limitations: r
the additional advantage of being able to do Whateic'eee
it pleased with the evidence relating to any Pnrt-o-se
lar claim, either to withhold it or produce it, 45 tee
thought proper. It would be recollected, doubtless, 11 .oi,
Honourable Member for Oxford University, who bad !wills-
pated with him in the delights of the record Committees bf
boars, that it was there stated that the records of the Diteees
of Cornwall were private property, and held as the title uthey
of an estate—that was to say, they were private, as long °doe
chose, and public only when it was thought proper to Prld al-
them in court. Now he asked whether Parliament wen et s
low such a tenure as this to remain, far which there Was
parallel to be found in all the revenues of the Crown the
that he wanted was to see them share the same fate ..oect
other hereditary revenues of the Crown, to be Inarialior
by public officers, and made the subject of compeosBoo
in cases where it was thought proper. There was orlY
ob'
point more to which he wished to advert. It had been bet
jected that these revenues did not belong to the Qaccloty
to the Prince of Wales whenever there might bo one. the
this was an objection which certainly did not WI, t°,4lo°
duchy of Lancaster; and, therefore, he could not iroup.
under what pretence rte revenues, at least, could not be glv
The question having been put fern the chair,
Lord ELIOT had the most perfect confidence tha the
wlicl;
Right Hon. Gentleman would introduce two Billartten of
would have the effect of removing- at least a large PO,,ber for
the grievances of which the Hon. and Learned ge-bt the
Liskeard had complained.—( Hear, hear.) He thong4ene of
whole system ought to be gone into, a better 01;oi5terY ,
management and administration provided, and _ char'
cleared away. If his Right Honourable Friend treLich be
cellor of the Exchequer fulfilled the pledge into ,u,',leae.)
had entered, he should have his cordial concurrence.-' Right
Sir CHARLES LEMON felt very grateful to b!,_2", the
Hon. Friend for the promise he had made, not onlrest,nf'uld be
accounts of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster neuw, sr.
la'd regularly before the House, but also that some no'r their
tern should be introduced for the better administration
dignity
was
affairs. But he must confess that what was now pr:_Pe°
not at all satisfactory with reference to the ease pe'e_,s. it
r sunjv "charge
of the Queen, and the satisfaction of her l)
leg .0
was notorious—without wishing to
whatever against the Duchy of Cornwalleae. e OO,
city
and privileges were very greatly enerfer b
tbe reels a
former times, and that the Die
The consequenc
as
way which was considered a grievance.
and almost eywrYair°o
that a state of warfare existed between „ear, he
hy
of its just claims, was compelled to incshtrt'ute prosecutionsc v
this "
erties of t
prefer
rhata- Its rights
Evendi v i du asupposinlandholderg
thaitnt that art
rpnaarret
title, ana patron:oc::
were retained—its administration,
colfittahletsperoep7 tr o
The title
carried to the general account t
Charter, and depend a, rho
Duke et Cornwall was tea rest
there seemed to be no reason wloiy. ttlhhee reeoveenntureys.
and it so haPPene;d: it
a secondary and incidental interestew;.
the
f h t time by tbc kir
Charter were
hal t
had been held for more than
The terms of that iubs rale
from the reign of Edward 111 d
an independent possession.
vas very great utiii That,
should
.10 be
fCO MW" or'
could - be Duke 0 It was
ther the Queen's son
beyond his cognizaucee.
Charter Acrd
n to el present Re a,
however, was a matter
peculiar, so much so that there
to ititerrtedteco
the e'
exceedingly peculiar, an thoorieur chasieshar.
tainly unquestioned thatd
Henry
literally so much so that ;
of
the
r Duke ot r
the e
soil, was ve ssl., the language iciest 5°
nor George 11., nor George IL
tratiimt iltiaa %nese
to he
ter requiring the Duke of Cornvra onfhtihtlear h