The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY,-EVENING EDITION,-MARCH 1, 1839

Protestant Establishment of that country. lam glad to
hear the Noble Viscount state that he was not aware of
those expressions having been used, because the inference
would be that he adopted the same opinions, and justified
the use of expressions which were an open declaration
of war against the Protestant Establishment of Ireland.
Lord HOLLAND—Are we then to understand the Noble
Lord that any speech delivered in the freedom of debate
is treated as a disqualification of any individual ? My
Lords, I never heard any doctrine so extraordinary. I hail
not the satisfaction of hearing the Noble and Learned
L ifd's speech, in which he introduced the question, but
it seems to me the most extraordinary that a person, for
words used in a debate on a particular subject, after a
lspse of a year or two, should he disqualified from office.
A NOBLE LORD-It was in July last.
Lord HOLLAND—Even if it had been yesterday, he
was old enough to remember persons twitted with speeches
which they had formerly made who had held offices of the
highest nature. —( Hear, hear.) Even supposing the speech
was correctly reported, which they could not know—a ques-
tion which was likely to come before this House, this very
day, perhaps would show a breach of the rules of the 811-1
of Rights, that a speech in that House, or in the other
House, was not to he questioned out of the House; and
ens it to b questioned by the Queen's Ministers—was it to
be questieued by the other House? It was a proposition
utterly untenable in law, and the only way the Noble and
Learned Lord could have of bringing it forward, was by
bringing on the motion.
Lord WICKLOW and Lord BROUGHAM, both rose at the
same time, and endeavoured to be heard.
Lord WICKLOW said that the Noble Baron entirely
mistook the question before the House.
Lord HOLLAND rose to order.
Lord BROUGHAM then rose and moved that the
House do now adjourn. He did this that the Noble Earl
opposite should be in order. (Hear, heat, hear.)
I❑ moving that the House do now adjourn. he did not
mean to interfere with the Noble Earl's observations
What he had to state should be confined to the remarks of
his Noble Friend (Lord Holland).
Lord HOLLAND said he was speaking to order.
Lord BROUGHAM said he was speaking to order too.
Lord HOLLAND—But the Noble and Learned Lord
made a motion.
Lord BROUGHAM said so he did, but—
Lord HOLLAND said there was.no question now be-
fore the House. There was no question under discussion,
and he thought it would be much better that the Noble
and Learned Lord should have the opportunity of bringing
questions regularly forward.
Lord BROUGHAM said they seemed now to be very
generally agreed that the whole of this had been disorderly,
hut in this respect they had only been going on as they
usually did.—( Hear, hear.) He had ❑ever been more
sstonished in his life than to hear his Noble Friend, who
seas not only one of the great organs of Order, but one
lof the great supporters of the hereditary law in this
country, and who ought to be best acquainted eith the
Bill of Rights, fall into the most absurd—he said so with
every possible respect to his Noble Friend, and meant it
only as a►gumentt—the most absurd mistake he ever heard
committed, to fancy that the word " question" in the Bill
of Rights meant to apply to Ties:lotting a speech in that
House, whereas it meant that the individual should not be
indicted or impeached upon it. He remembered that the
late Mr. Huskisson once told him that that word ought
certainly to be removed from the Bill of Rights, in refer-
ence to a question which had been put to the late Mr.
Charles Yorke. It was as it stood a mere quibble
on the word "question ;" and he heard Mr. Huskisson
say that if any one would move the repeal of that word, he
would second it.
Lord MELBOURNE, as we understood, said that
Mr. Huskisson had voted for it.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he could say nay to that,
because he himself had said to Mr. Iluskisson, If you
object to it, why did you support it? Upon which Mr.
Iluskisson decidedly said he never did support it.
Lord MELBOURNE, as we understood, said that he
bad moved for the commitment of Sir Francis Burdett.
Lord BROUGHAM said that that was for writing a
libel; but would any body tell him that an important or
unjustifiable speech in the House of Commons was not a fit
ground for Ministers to advise her Majesty upon in the
appointment of an individual to an office ?—(Much
cheering.) It would be no punishment to Lord Ebring- '
ton not to be made Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
—(Hear.) He should think—no man having a greater
respect for that Noble Viscount than he (Lord Broughahn)
had, agreeing with his Noble Friend opposite, that so
far from its being a punishment not to be sent to that
country under these circumstances, and under the e•eieht
of pressure under which that Government must now be
admistered, by those who entertained such sentiments, he
should look upon it as an escape—% respite—a reprieve
from a punishment.—(Cheers.) The observations made
respecting a speech of his Noble and Learned Friend's,
three years ago, which ho did not hear, only astonished
him next to the gloss which had been put upon the Bill
of Rights. There was just this difference between the
two—his Noble and Learned Friend had denied that speech.
—(Cries of " No, no.") Well, but he (Lord Brougham)
understood that the Noble and Learned Lord had given
art explanation of it which made it assume a different

aspect.
Lord LYNDHURST, according to what we could
hear, observed, that he had repeatedly explained what he
had then said. What he had then stated was, that the
people of Ireland and the people of this country were two
races, and he certainly, in speaking of the people of Ire-
land might have said they were not one race but instead of
ti at he had used the word alien.
Lord BROUGHAM was sorry that his Noble and
Learned Friend had used that phrase ; his Noble and
Learned Friend knew that he (Lord B.) was sorry for it.
They had discussed it in private, and his Noble and Learned
Friend knew his opinion upon it ; but the misfortune was,
that if a man used an unfortunate phrase, explanations came
too late. If the question had Peen the sending of his No-
ble and Learned Friend over to Ireland immediately after
his using that phrase he should not have been the
Minister to have sent him, and if the subject of conversa-
tion now was not explained, he did not think that he
should be one to advise the sending of the Noble Viscount.
However he had no wish to go into the matter further,
and he only wished his observations to apply to what his
Noble Friend said.
Viscount STRANG FORD was understood to ask whe-
ther a Noble Lord ( Londonderry) appointed to a high fo-
reign missson, had not been called to account in another
place for his political sentiments and speeches, and whether
his appointment was not in consequence rescinded ?--[No
answer was given to the question.]
Lord HOLLAND believed that he was now in strict

order to answer the arguments of his Noble and Learned
Friend. His Noble and Learned Friend had entirely
misunderstood what he (Lord Holland) had said on the
Bill of Rights. It was only in allusion to the question
for to-day respecting the petition, which was for leave to
examine the proceedings in that House, that he had no-
ticed it. But at the same time, knowing well how dan-
gerous it was for him to differ with his Noble and
Learned Friend on such subjects, be could nut allow
his argument to be considered by him (Lord •Hol-
land) as well founded, narrowed as he supposed, he had
brought it merely, to the question of impeachment. As to
any remark upon the privilege of the Crown, respecting the
fie edom of debate in Parliament, the Noble and Learned
Lord's observations had no application. It was extremely un-
u etal to be engaged in questioning or discussing speeches
made in Parliament, as grounds of qualification or dis-
qualification to hold office. He did not know what the speech
was that had been referred to, but he had reason to be-
lieve there were different reports even of that speech ; and
if speeches were to be made the subjects of inquiry, there
ought to be some mode of ascertaining the truth of
them, and he did not know how that mode was to be
adopted, unless there was to be some way of trying it.
The Earl of WICKLOW said, that as he believed he
was now in order, he would make a few observations. The
Noble Lord opposite had got up, knowing he was out of
order, made a statement at full length, and when he (the
Earl of Wicklow) got up to reply to him, the Noble Lord
interposed the order of the House, and stated he was out of
order, because there was no motion before the House.
That might be justice—it might he love of order in the
mind of the Noble Baron, but he believed he was the only
person within those walls Who had such a sense of order
or justice. The question put by his Noble and Learned
friend did outgo to the point stated by the Noble Baron—
it did not go to the extent a bother he would appoint
to an official situation, a person who had at a former
period in the course of debate, made use of some
intemperate expression which he might wish to recall.
No doubt no proceeding could be more unjust
than that. but no such question had been put. —( Hear,
hear.) The whole of the circumstances of the CO.BO must
be taken together. In the course of the last Scssion
Bill was brought forward by her Mejesty's nr,i*ters, pro-
fessedly, as they stated, for tlee puspese of settling the lone-
ro
titine l,nrgo
ttersatnariognuti lei tYh-,tl
raethcli
es k
portion of the Empire. In
(I!sputed point'with regard to Tittles •in Ireland.' p
purpogn = • , -
rengtnening
joiihic or the debate,-the Noble Lord to whom refer_
etsee beef been made, and for syloeie personal character no-
b Ody had a greeter eeseessi 'Oin he himself had, took ocea-
soe to state"that he was opposed to that measure, but sup-
ported it le:cause he thought it would be the groundwork
for future wars and eonteete ageinst she Church. Then his
Noble and Learned friend had said i‘ Do you with a know-
ledge of that declaration—with a knowledge that the Noble
Lord has declared hta hostility not only to the law, but his
hope that the warfare would he still persevered in ?—do you
with that knowledge send the Noble Lord to be Geyer o;
of Ireland ? " The Noble Viscount aoswered with great
tipsitation,—( Hear, hoar.) Ho felt the dilemma in which
he had placed himself and the Government. He did not
state--" I was not aware of it," but be had said—" I eQ p„.l
know whether I was aware of it or not ;" that was a very
ominous answer coming from the Noble Lord. Under
those circumstances, his appointing such a person and hie
continuing to persevere in that appointment was equivalent
to a declaration on his part and on the part of Government
that they were determined not to maintain the law which
they themselves had brought in in the course of the last
Session; but that they were determined to proceed still
further in a warfare against the Church in that country.
lie moat solemnly asserted, and he had authority for stating
it, that the declaration made by the Noble Viscount
(Ebrington) had, long before any such appointment as this
sweanstincloenntts had
emplatecdr,eatcerdeagtreedat
sensation at the time they
great sensation. If those
were uttered, what would be their effect now, when they
saw that individual, whose words as a Member of the Le-
gislature caused such apprehension, chosen as the person to
govern Ireland ?—( Hear.) lee would tell the Noble Vis-
count
fntoopposite that
settlementthe
of
the question, and which he had
measure be had passed last Sea-
ihoped would have a tendency to do so—he begged to
state that that measure would be altogther frustrated, if
the Nro)ble
He Viscounttrusted th
perseveredeNoble Lord would again reflect
in the appointment.—
(Hear.)
this appointment, and seeing the danger likely to result
Iron' it, would be induced even now to withdraw it.
Earl RODEN never rose in the House with greater
pain than he did on the present occasion ; because there
a'as no individual who had
hadhada lived together in early life
greater regard for the Noble
Viscount
Whose appointment had given rise to this discus-
in the closest intimacy, and whatever difference there

might be in their political views, he should ever esteem
that Noble Lord's private character. But he conceived
that the subject which had been introduced to-night was
re.e of the most serious importance. The Noble and
Learned Lord who had so candidly brought forward the
subject, would gain the regard and the thanks of all persons
in Ireland who were anxious for the protection of the
Protestant interests in that country.—( Hear, hear.) Ile
could not but think that any Noble Lord going to Ireland
es Viceroy with this speech at imped as that which was to
guide his councils, must create exceeding alarm in the
minds of ell Protestant people, and that it would be a
great triumph to those wh , were opposed to them on this
important subject. The Noble Marquis opposite had
taunted the Noble and Learned Lord with only referring
o a particular expression in the speech, now a matter of his-
tory, made by the Noble Viscount in another place. He
thought that for the sake of justice he might be adowed
to read the whole of the speech as reported, and then their
Lordships would be able to say whether the imputation
cast on the Noble end Learned Lord by the Noble Mar-
quis opposite was not unjust in the extreme. The report,
which he lied found in their Lordship's Library, stated that
Lord Viscount Ebrin;;ton said—" I am desirous of saying
i,nlv a few words. 1, for one, entirely concur in what was
lately said by the Noble Secretary at War, that this Bill
will be a mere adjournment of the question. I have ever
considered the exist(-nce of a Church Establishment so
utterly disproportion,- d to the wants of the people (as that
of Ireland), a state and a disgrace to the Protestant reli-
gion, aid a great mist'. eriune to the country. I should
not be induced to support the Bill if I thought
its effect would be to prevent that reduction of the Irish
aeablishment which I believe will soon be extorted by the
unanimous demand of the people. If I could see in the
present state of parties any prospect of carrying into effect
the principle of appropriaiion, consideretien weatever
could lead me to listen to a compromise. I shill vete fo,.
the Bill only because I expect that so far from proienting
a thorough reform of the Irish Church it will, let throwing
the payment of tithes into the hands of thus e -/V o has.
more power and influence than the present payers, render
the war now waged against the Church more formidable. I
support the measure, not because it is as good as I should
wish, but because it is as good as can be hoped for at present."
He would ask the Noble Viscount whether those were
the sentiments of her Majesty's Government by sending
the Noble Viscount to Ireland? He thought it would be
more candid, more fair, and much better for the country at
large, that the people of England, as well as the people
of Ireland, should know whether it was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to destroy the Protestant religion
in that country by sending over a Viceroy holding such
sentiments as those he had alluded to, but which perhaps
the Noble Viscount opposite might perhaps in his place
deny. He for one trusted that their Lordships would
',ever consent to any measure which might be intro-
duced, or which might arise in consequence of this ap-
pointment, having a tendency to interfere with the Protes.
tint religion in Ireland. It was the Protestant Establishment
in Ireland which had been the depositary of all that was
true and good in that country, and if they attempted to
destroy it in the Sister Island, that attempt might be made
in a few weeks upon our own land: He had before ad-
dressed himself to those Spiritual Lords who sat in that
House upon this subject, and he would call on those Right
Rev. Lords who were the legitimate guardians of the
Church, (and be it remembered this was the United Church
that was attacked,) to stand forward in this hour of Pro-
testant danger and Protestant conflict, to uphold their re-
ligion. He had felt it his duty to express these sentiments,
when he saw such danger threatened, for he was convinced
that Protestantism in Ireland would be the protector of
civil and religious liberty throughout the country.
The Bishop of LONDON wished to give notice that
lie should call the attention of the House to a late pro-
ceeding relative to the Marrirge Act.
Lord BROUGHAM—Oh, stop a moment, let us dis-
pose of this first.—( Laughter. )
The Bishop of LONDON begged the Noble and
Learned Lord's pardon. He thought the discussion was
concluded.
Lord BROUGHAM said he rejoiced that he had given
iris Noble Friend an opportunity of making an explanation
on this matter, and he would now withdraw this motion.—
( Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
MARRIAGE ACT.
The Bishop of LONDON gave notice that he should
to-morrow present two petitions from a clergyman respect-
ing the administration of the late Marriage Act, which was
a subject of great importance both to religion and moraliy.
He gave notice, because he meant at the same time to move
for the production of correspondence between the Regis-
trar-General and the Guardians of the neighbourhood iu
which the clergyman resided. on this subject.
BEER ACT.
Lord BROUG HAM said that finding there was no inten-
tion of proceeding in another quarter with a Bill of which he
had given notice, he had telt it his duty in redemption of
the pledge he hart given, to call their Lordships' attention
to the aubject of the Beer Act, and to state that he
should press the second reading of the Bill, but he could
riot name the day on which he should move the second
reading, until he learned when the Neble Duke ( Wel-
lington) was likely to he pres nt.
Some Noble Lords on the opposite side said " rtft~•r
April."

POOR LAWS (IRELAND),
Viscount DUNCANNON moved the third reading of
:his Bill, adding a clause which should substitute the word
" Electoral Divisions" instead of " Unions," whereby,
according to the intention of the B;11, though not accord-
ing td the misnomer, rate-payers having property in seve-
ral districts, should have a vote in the election of guard.
tans for that locality.
The Earl of WICKLOW concurred in the observa-
tions of the Noble Viscount.
The Bill was then read a second time.
INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved that papers might
be laid by her Majesty's Government before the House il-
lustrative of the actual teems of the negotiations between
the Governor-General of India and Runjeet Shin;, and
:he expedition of Shah Shooja to Singapore in 1834; also
with respect to the negotiations with the Government of
Ca bool.

Viscount MELBOURNE assured the Noble Lord that
her Majesty's Government were most willing to lay what-
ever information they could before the House, not only re-
specting Indian affairs but those of Asia generally, and
papers containing that information should shortly be laid
before both Houses of Parliament.

Lord GOSFO RD presented a petition from a place in
Worcestershire against the punishment of death for murder;
and also a petition from the Missionary Association of Not-
tingham for the abolition of the tax on idolatry in British
India.

Some other petitions were presented, and their Lord-
ships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEB. 28.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'Clock.

Mr. Crafer presented papers from the Treasury.
Mr. GLADSTONE brought in the Newark Gas Bill,
which was read a first time and ordered to be read a se-
cond time.

Lord D UNG A NNON brought in the Llangollen Roads
Bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a
,econd time to-morrow.

Lord ELIOT presented two petitions from parishes
Cornwall, signed by upwards of 2,000 persons, against
any alterations in the existing Corn-lags,

'Sir G. STRICKL AND presented a petition from
Ileckmansworth, praying for a repeal of the Corn-laws.
Lord SANDON brought in the Liverpool and Man-
chester Railway Improvement Bill, which was read a first,
and ordered to be read a second time.

Mr. BARING WALL presented a petition from South-
wark against a repeal f,f the Corn-laws.
CHURCH-RATES.

Mr. BAINES presented a petition from an indivilull
confined in the gaol of Chelmsford, in Essex, who stated
that he had been 23 years residing in Chelmsford—that he
had been summoned by the Rev. Thos. Brookshaw for
ss. 6d., alleged to be due by him for Church-rates—that
itc disputed the validity of the rate on account of its
inequality, and the magistrates refused to adjudicate.
On the 14th of November he was cited to the Consistorial
Court, but did not attend on account of the elcpnw, and
on the 16th of January he was taken into custody and
lodged in gaol. The petitioner prayed that Church-rat.-
might be extinguished, and that his case might
into the consideration of the I-huie. r'-
,Pvcnotice that he would call
-

ofl taken

—le lion. 110,nber
attention of the House!

to the subject on a fut.::„.1,07.
.Ht.TRCH EXTENSION.
Mr. HOPE jOHNSTN presented petitins from
severP), orishea in Scotland O
in favour of Churoch Ex-
ce.wdort.

CORN-LAWS.
The Hon. MEMBER also presented a petition from Dum-
fries against any alteration in the Corn-laws.
Mr. W. DUNCO.VIBE presented forty petitions from
Yc.rksbire, signed by between 2,000 and 3,000 persons,
against any alteration in the Corn-laws.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY—I beg to give notice that on
the
The SPEAKER—The Honourable Member cannot
give notices yet. The notice paper is not yet on.
Mr. HARVEY—But my name is on the paper.
The SPEAKER—But this is not the proper time for
calling that paper.
Mr. HARVEY—That is one of the inconveniences of
being out of the House for a week.—(Laughter.) I was
not aware of the rule before.
The SPEAKER--.The rule alluded to by the Hon.
Member is much older than a week. It was acted upon
during the whole of last Session.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON presented six petitions from
places in Ireland, praying that the House would
not agree to any alteration in the Corn-laws. Also, peti-
tions from Kilkevan, and other parishes in Connaught Pro-
ince, complaining of the present system of National Edu-
cation in Ireland. As the Scriptures were excluded, it
was impossible for the Protestants to send their children to
the schools, and praying for an alteration.
Col. GRANT presented a petition from the county of
Ross, praying for Church Extension in Scotland.

CORN-LAWS.
Petitions praying the House not to interfere with the
present Corn-laws, were presented by Mr. Alston, from
Ashley and other places ; by Mr. Barneby, from the pro-
prietors, occupiers, and many labourers in Hereford ; and
by Mr. Etwall.

Mr. ALSTON presented petitions from Baldock and
other races, praying that the pu.nishment of death, in all
cases except those for murder, might be abolished.
METROPOLIS IMPROVEMENT.

Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the rector,
churchwardens, and inhabitants of the parish of St. George,
Bethnal-green, praying that their district might be in-
cluded in the places about to be improved. Also one to
the same effect from the inhabitants of the parish of St.
Matthew, Bethnal-green.
BEER ACT.

Colonel DAVIES presented a petition from the Li-
censed Victuallers of Worcester against the Beer Act.
Colonel ROLLESTON presented a petition from
Nottingham to the same effect.
CORN-LAWS.

The GALLANT COLONEL also presented a petition from

the same place against the Repeal of the Corn Laws.
Mr. CLIVE presented a petition from Salop to the, 1
same effect.

CHURCH EXTENSION (SCOTLAND).
Captain GORDON presented several petitions in fa-
vour cf additional Cinirch Extension in Scotlinti."

Mr. CHALMERS presented a petition from Forfar
against any additional endowments to the Church of
Scotland.

Mr. GAL L Y KNIGHT presented a petition from the
N‘Atingham Association against the superstitious ant ido-
latrous praciees in India.
Mr. LEADER presented a petition from Bridgewater,
praying for the entire abolition of the Corn-laws.

Lord ELIOT gave notice that on the 14th of March he
wculd move for a " Select Committee t) inquire into th,
statements contained in the petition of William Snow
Harris, Esq , F. R. S., relating to the protection of ships
from the effects of lightning."
Sir JAMES DUKE gave notice that on this day fort-
night he would move for a return of all vessels em-
ployed for the conveyance of convicts during the last
throe years ; also for a return of the vessels employed as
transports durit.g the same period.
Mr. WARD postponed his notice of motion respecting
the petition of W. H. Burnand till this day fortnight, on
which day he would move for leave to bring in
Bill to regulate the disposal of all Crown lands in th,
Colonies upon such an uniform plan as would a
proper emigration fund.
SEATS IN DANGER.

Mr. HARVEY gave notice that t 11:.!
would move an address to her Majesty, praying
that. she would be graciously pleased to cause to be laid
on the table of the House copies of any appointments made
by the Earl of Durham previous to his departure from
England, as well as while in the province of Ca-
nada, stating the dates, the amount of sPlaries
paid, or to be paid, and the duties to b.'
performed by each officer. It was proper that he should
state to the House that his object was to take ulterior
measures, which most probably would affect the seats of
the Hon. Members for Liskeard and St. Andrew's.—
(Loud laughter and cheers.)
Mr. HAWES postponed the notice he had given re
specting the Ecclesiastical Courts till Tuesday next, when
he would move this resolution—" That in conformity with
the reccommendation of the Commissioners upon Ecclesi-
astical Courts the jurisdiction in those Courts be abolished
without delay."
CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.

Mr. GO ULB URN said, seeing the Under-Secretary
for the Colonies in his place, he wished to put a
question respecting the settlement at the Cape of
Good Hope. It appeared from accounts which had
been published, that there had been an attempt on
the part of the Government to disarm certain settlers
upon the frontier who were apprehensive of Caffre incur-
sions, and that, in consequence of the attempt, there had
been a contest, attended with considerable loss of blood.
He was anxious to know whether the Government had re-
ceived any intelligence of this affair?
Mr. 14 ABOUCHERE said he was aware considerable
anxiety had been excited by the reports which had found
their way to this country upon this subject. The latest
official accounts were dated one day previously to this al-
leged occurrence, but those accounts, so far from giving any
confirmation to the rumour, led to the supposition that
it was very improbable. The best way would be to read
the last letter from the Governor of Cape Town to Lord
Glenelg, dated the 28th of December :—" As the vessel
is now leaving, I have only time to write a few lines, in-
forming your Lordship that we have received despatches
from the officer commanding the expedition up to
the 12th, and private letters up to the 14th. All the
stores had been landed without any accident. The
Ehors had sent a force against the Caffres, and had been
victorious. 1 hope to be able to send despatches on the
let or 2d of next month."—( We believe this was the
letter as read by the Right Hon. Gentleman.) It was
quite natural that anxiety should prevail in the public mind
to have a confirmation or a confutation of the painful ru-
mours which had been circulated as to the failure of the
expedition. He could add nothing more to what he had
said.

—em hers—ho w
,1 place to place, and it

were

‘vera
said