The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-24 00:00:00

for the payment of mouse ministers in the Church of Irelaed,
and that would be as n-ood an opportunity for the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dundalk to bring on his motion as the present. The
lion. Member for Worcester had an important motion also
on the paper, but he hoped he would bow to the sense
of the House. The Honourable Member for Bath also
had a very important question to bring on ; but as he
was one of those who was most anxious to go on with
the public business, lie apprehended that he would threw no
obstacle in the way of their proceeding with the adjourned de-
bate. If it met with the general assent of the Houle, he
hoped those Hots. Members would allow them to reaume the
adjourned debate.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD'S only object was, to study the con-
venience of the House. He would not press his motion, on
the understanding that Government would assist him in getting
a hearing.
Mr. B. HOY would not stand against the feeling o the
House, but he considered his question of so meth importance
that he would move it on the fiest Order of the Day on Friday.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved
the Order of the Day for resuming the debate on the Church-
rate Resolutions.
Mr. ROEBUCK would take that opportunity of asking a
question of the Hon. Under-Secretary for the Colonies. There
were a number of Bills then expiring in Lower Canada,
in consequence of the non-sitting of the Assembly, and among
them were many Charters of Banks. He wished to know
whether any Royal charter or charters were to be granted to
those Banks, or whether any Royal charter was to be granted
to the North American Bank. If the Royal charters were to
be granted then, was there to be a clause in them, allowioe
them to be done away with, if a general law were passed by
the Legislature of the country ?
Sir G. GREY said that applications had been made by
three Banks for a renewal of their charter, to enable them to
carry on their business ; that charters would be given to
those three banks for a limited period only, to carry them over
the time during which the provincial Legislature would be
able to decide whether the charter should b continued or nut.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. HUME wished to know what was the intention of his
Majesty's Ministers with regard to the House meeting- to-
morrow ? ( Hear. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, th it as the adjourned de-
bate on Church-Rates would probably last till a late hour, it
would be better to adjourn till Thursday.—( Hear.)
IRISH POOR LAW BELL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in answer to a question from
Mr. Shaw, said that he proposed to go on with th 6 Com-
mittee on the Irish Poor-law Bill on Thursday next.
Mr. AG LIONBY said, in consequence of the adjournment
of the House over to-morrow, a Bill of which he had had
charge for the last two Sessions would be also thrown
over. As he quite despaired of being able to carry the
measure himself, which was a most important one, beine
a Bill for the recovery of tenements after notice to quit,
he begged to ask the Noble Lord whether, in the event of
his giving it up, his Majesty's Government would take up
the question ? Last session he had charge of the Bill, and
for six successive Wednesdays the House had been counted
out.--( Laughter.) The House had now adjourned over to-mor-
row, and he would submit to the Noble Lord whether the sub-
ject should not be taken up by the law advisers of the Crown.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was unable, in the absence of
the Attorney-General, to answer the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber's question.
Mr. ESTCOURT hoped the Hon. Member would net
abandon the Bill.
Mr. WAKLEY suggested that the Bill ought to be re-
ferred to a Committee. Its object was to supersede trial by
jury in many cases, and it was therefore a fit snbject for the
consideration of a Committee.
Mr. ROEBUCK begged to suggest to the Noble Lord
(J. Russell), as the House had adjourned over to-morrow, and
as it was very unlikely that there would be any House on
Thursday, the Derby day,_ whether it would not be advisable
to give them two holidays ?—( Hear, hear.)
CHURCH-RATES—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate
having been read,
Mr. BROTHF,RTON, as the representative of a large
constituency, would take the liberty of offering a few obser-
vations to the House. In Nlane)sester there were no less than
30 Churches belonging to the Eetablishment which were sup-
ported by their own resources, while the whole of the rates went
to the support of only one es? them. The measure, therefore,
proposed by Ministers vas not only a relief to the Dissenters,
but to the Members of the Church themselves. In the same
town there were 'no less than 100 Dissenting places of Wor-
ship, and the persons attending them amounted to no less
than 100,00 P,. It had been said there was not a sufficiency of
Church 'accommodation in Manchester; he denied that such
``'as the case, and asserted that there was twice the accommo-
datir,d that was required.
,slr. A. TREVOR and Mr. FITZROY rose at the same moment,
'but the former gave way.
Mr. FITZROY had the honour to represent a large con-
stituency, and he had been sent to that House by parties who
professed various political and religious opinions. Those who
had returned him, and they were of all parties, Dissenters as
well as Churchmen, had requested him to state to that House
that they not only considered Church-rates no burden, but that
they paid no tax imposed upon them so willingly and cheer-
fully.___( Hear.) They concurred with him in deprecating the
Ministerial plan. It had been said that this measure was
brought forward in'eompliance with the general wishes of the
Dissenters, and that it would be a healing measure. If this
worn the 'seem I t...,., l;tLc uviln eumptathea of-1r
it would relieve the Dissenters from grievances which they
were anxious to be relieved from--why, he asked, was not the
table of that House greening with petitions? He believed
that the result of the petitions presented on this subject, if
they were to be taken as the criterion es an argument for the
adoption or rojection of any given measure—would show a mo-t
overwhelming majority opposed to the plan of his Majesty's
Ministers,—(Cries of " Hear," and " No, no.)
Mrs A. TREVOR concurred in what his Hon. Friend
had mated with respect to the petitions presented to that
Reuse ; and he also believed that the voice of the country
generally was hostile to this measure. He should now call
the attention of the House to another point. The Honourable
Member for North Durham had, in his speech of last night,
alluded to the subject of Church leases. Now, the conster-
nation and alarm which existed in the county of Durham on
this subject, it would be impossible to describe. He held in
his hand a communication which he had received from a
highly respectable gentleman residing at South Shields on this
part of the case. [The Hon. Gentleman read a passage from
this communication : it stated that the proposed interference
'with this species of property in the diocese of Durham was
likely to involve the most serious consequences to all those who
held Church leases', and that already the mortgagees of such
property had given notice to the mortgagors for payment of the
p: incipal and interest due on their securities. It was utterly im-
possible these payments could be made, because no person would
now lend money on such property, and the consequence
would be ruinous loss to the owners of Church leases.j—
-( Hear, hear.) Such was the condition to which the county
of Durham was reduced by the introduction of this measure.
The Hon. Member for North Durham had also stated that
there were in the county of Durham only 110 places of wor-
ship connected with the Established Church, while the Dis-
senting places of worship amounted to 246. Ile did not know
whether in this calculation the flon. Member had included the
chapels of ease, a number of which, to his knowledge, had
recently been erected in different parts of that county. Now,
in the diocese of Durham, which comprehended the eourities
of Durham and Northumberland, there were 152 benefices,
and, consequently, if there were 110 churches in the county
of Durban's, the number left for the county of Northumberland
would only he 42. This certainly could not be right. The
Hon, Member for North Durham had likewise made a com-
pasison between the schools connected with the Established
Church and those belonging to the Dissenters in the county
of Durham. On referring to a return on this subject, he (Mr.
Trevor) found that in the Schools, Sunday and daily, in that
county, connected with the Established Church, the number
of children instructed was 55,000, while in the whole of the
schools of the Dissenters, according to the same document,
only 10,012 children attended for the purposes of education,
lf,, then, any reliance was to be placed on this return, the
numbers of children in the schools of the Established Church
greatly exceeded that in the schools of the Dissenters.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman said he supported this measure because
he considered it would be beneficial to the Church ; but how
he made good such an argument he (Mr. A. Trevor) cnu'd
not conceive. The Hon. Member for Salford told them that
the feeling of the people of Lancashire was against the con-.
tinuation of Church-rates. He (Mr. A. Trevor) did not
believe this, because he had been informed-by a party in whose
verneity be placed the highest confidence, that both at War-
rington and at Liverpool petitions against the Ministerial plan for abolishing Church-rates had been carried by a majority of
700.--( Hear, hear.) At Manchester also it had been found,
upon a scrutiny, that there was a majority in favour of
Church-rates ; and, with such facts before them, he would
put it to the House to say whether they could give credence
to the Hon. Gentleman when he said that the people of Lan-
cashire were inveterately opposed to, and entertained an in-
corrigible detestation to Church-rates. lie would tell the
Hon. Gentleman opposite that, if they were prepared to be-
lieve that the feelings which they entertained towards the
Established Chinch were responded to throughout the coun-
try they acted under a very gross delusion. Let a return of
the number of signatures be moved for, and he would be pre-
pared to prove that the signatures to the petitions in favour of
Church-rates, and against the plan proposed by his Majesty's
31h-deters, far outnumbered those presented on the other side.
--( Cheers. ) He did not know to what extent the petitions at
the other side had been signed by rate-payers, but this he was
prepared to say, that the greater number. if not all, of the pe-
titions presented at his side were signed by rate-payers alone.
—( Hear, hear.) In taking any step to lower the Established
Church they were laving the foundation of the worst evil that
could by possibility afflict the country. If the Clergy of the
Established Church were reduced to a position in which they
could no longer mi-intain their present weight and station in
society, a great evil would befal the country.—( Hear, hear.)
They were told that it was unjust to call on the Dissenters
to contribute to the support of a Church from which they
conscientiously dissented. On the same ground the Hon.
Member opposite (Mr. O'Connell) might say that he had
no right to pay tithes. On the same ground a man might
refuse to pay taxes, because he differed • from the principle in
support of which the tax was applied. The time at which these
hostile measures towards the Church were introduced was most
ill-chosen, for there never was a period in the history of the
Church when greater exertions were made by the Clergy 01
the Church for the benefit of their flocks and of their fellow-
men than the present period. At no period had a greater
number of schools been erected, or more benefit conferred bs
the Church upon the public. This, then, was a time when
such an attempt ought not to be made to injure the Church.
By whom was this attempt to injure the Established church