The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-23 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY .23, 1130.

diture subject to diminution, being 12,000,000/. If he
Ir.(' confined that statement to the sums voted annually, he
would have been correct, The proposition of the lion.
Member for Aberdeen was for a diminution of 5,000,000/.

which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said was impos-
sible upon an expenditure of 12,000,0001., which was
all that was capable of diminution. Now the Report of
tfe Committee of Finance was, that out of the total ex-
penditure of 55,000,0001. only 35,000,000/. were in-
capable of diminution, leaving 20,000,000/. upon which
deductions 'night be effected. The Debt. the Civil list,
and Superannuation Allowances were all that did not ad-
mit of reduction. In addition to this 20,000,0001. there
was the Sinking Fund of 3,000,0001., and the reduction
of the Three and a Half and Four per Cents. amounts to
2,000,000/., so that the suns total upon which deductions
might be made was not 12,000,000/. as the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had stated, but 25,000,0001. With re-
spect to the number of men absolutely necessary for the
public service, he thought 83,000 rank and file more than
sufficient. In 1823 the state of Greece and Turkey re-
quired that we should retain larger garrisons in the Medi-
terrane an, but that necessity no leuger existed. A great
saving might also be effected by withdrawing 5,000 men
from the Canadas and Jamaica. In conclusion, he bad
only to impress on the House that, under the circum-
stances of the country and of Europe, it was to be con-
sidered if the forces to which he had alluded should not
be reduced.

Sir H. HARDINGE said, that if he understood the
Hon. Baronet, he (Sir H. Parnell) declared that, in his
opinion, the force, 88,000 rank and file, including the
troops employed in India, "was more than sufficient for
the service of the country, and that it might be reduced
by seven or 8,000 men on account of the altered circum-
stances in which we then stood with respect to the lonian
Isles. But he would beg to ask the Hon.' Baronet how
long was it since these alterations had taken place ? He
had within the last few days had the honour of receiving
the book on Financial Reform, written by the Hoz. Ba-
ronet, Chairman of the late Committee of Finance, and
in that book he (Sir H. Hardinge) saw that the con-
clusion to which the Hon. Baronet had come from the
evidence before that Committee' was, that a force of
87,000 men, including the troops in India, was ne-
cessary for all the public services of the country; the
which force, he wished the House to remark, was within
one thousand of the number appointed for the year 1830;
and therefore, as the Hon. Baronet's book had only been
published within the last few days—since which, it would
seem, these altered circumstances had become imperative,
he (Sir H. Hardinge), if they were now to come to a
vote upon the subject, would claim the vote of the lion.
Baronet. Another point to which the Hon. Member had
alluded was the number of troops kept at Gibraltar and
Malta. Now, with respect to this, he had simply to say,
that the garrison of Gibraltar was now less by 1,000
than it had been in the year 1792. Iu 1792 the number
was 4,221 ; in 1830 it was only 3,486. Again, as to the
Canadas, he had merely to advert to the papers laid before
the Finance Committee, from which it appeared that in
1792 the amount of force maintained there wa-s 3,247,
while in 1530 it was 2,905 ; and, consequently, that
there had been a reduction of 300 men, indeed, as lie
had already stated on a former evening, he could, with the
single exception of New South Wales, run through all our
Colonies, and show that the number of troops generally
employed in them was less than in 1792. He hoped,
therefore, that the Hon. Baronet would re-consider his op-
position to the payment of the-men who had been voted
for the public service during the present
.year.
Sir H. PARNELL said, in explanation, that what he
had stated was, that as the number of 84,000 men, which
was that which the Duke of Wellington and tl►e other
military officers bad declared it necessary to maintain for
the public services in the year 1829, was a larger force by
9,000 than that which was kept up in the peace pre-
ceding the war of 1793, he thought that 9,000 rank and
file ought to be reduced;. but now he certainly had a
right to look for further reduction, the affairs of Turkey
and Greece being now brought to a final settlement.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY was opposed to the grant.—
He, however, thought that while they agreed to continue
the number of men, they must also continue the expendi-
ture ; he, theref ire, did not blame the Chancellor of the
Exchequer or the other Members of the Administration,
all of whom lie believed discharged their several duties
with great zeal and ability—but he blamed the House of
Commons.—(Hear, hear)—lt was the House of Com-
mons that left the load of taxation upon the people—it
was the House of Commons that in fact inflicted it. His
Majesty's Ministers brought down the various Estimates—
they agreed to them—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was then, of course, bound to provide by the ways and
means for this expenditure which they had pointed out.._
(Hear, bear.) He thought, then, twat the House of Com-
mons ought to insist upon some reduction in the number
of rank and file; and he felt it his duty accordingly to
propose something effective. He ,therefore begged to
suggest, that two battalions of the Guards and one regi-
ment of the Household Troops should be reduced, and
that the Cavalry should be brought down to the scale of
1792, which, as compared with the present, was in the
ratio of 196 rank and file to 305. He had, on a former
occasion, objected to having the Household Troops retained
in London since the establishment of the New Police ; but

he acknowledged himself convinced by-the reasons adduced
by the Right Hon. and Gallant Secretary, on a preceding
evening. lie thought, however, that a regiment of the
line ought occasionally to be sent to Windsor. Much good
had resulted, during the last reign, by meritorious officers
attracting the attention of his Majesty.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD most unequivocally
denied having been influenced by factious motives in the
course he had lately pursued in that House; and he said
that if that party commonly called Brunswickers were to
return to power, and propose the repeal of that Relief Bill
which had been passed last Session, he would feel it his
duty to oppose the repeal as strenuously as he had last
year objected to the passing of the measure. He therefore
hoped that no man would ever agent attribute to him
factious or unworthy motives. Now, to approach the
question before the House :—lle protested, in the name of
the injured and insulted people of England, against Mi-
niiters laying their sacrilegious hands upon the public
money. The distress was now so great, that there was
great danger lest the very foundations of society should
be shaken. One Minister of the Crown had spoken
with much fairner.s ❑nd candour on the matter, but

another had attempted to gloss it over ; therefore
it was the duty of the Representatives of the people
to inquire into the real state of the ease, and search
after the remedies, else would they compromise the
interests they had been sent to guard. He thought they
should not agree to this grant. They should not give
Ministers the power of suppressing the popular Cl y. The
rwijoritics of Friday showed the public what they had to
expect from the House and from the Administration ; and
the tidings of these majorities were now spreading to the
remotest limits of the kingdom, and in all quarters exciting
disappointment and dismay. But let not Ministers mistake
the signs of the times. The people demanded a reduction

of taxation, and let Government he assured that the voice

of the people. as not to be disregarded. In the name of the
people of England, he demanded the reduction of all taxes
upon labour and indasti y. All those imposts whieli pre-
vented the employment of the people ought to be removed.
--(Hear, hear.)—He wished tkat the stare of the country
should be properly represented to his Majesty, and he would
conclude by quoting the words of Lord Bacon—" Kings
have to deal with their neighbours, their wives, and their
children, their Prelates or Clergy, their nobles, their second
nobles or gentlemen, their merchants, their commons, and
their men of war ; and from all these arise dangers, if care
and circumspection be not used. For their merchants they
are versa porta ; and if they flourish not a kingdom may
have good limbs, but will have empty veins and nourish
little. Taxes and impost on them do little good to tha
King's Revenue; for that he wins in the hundred he loseth
in the shire ; the particular rate being increased, but the
total, bulk of trading being rather decreased. For their
Commons there is little dancer from them, except it be
where they have great and potent heads : or where you
meddle with the point of religion or customs or means of
life." May these words reach the Royal ear, and sink deeply
into the Royal heart.
Sir G. MURRAY said, he rose to speak upon a few
military points ; but he would take the opportunity of
stating. that he was not one Of those who attributed fac-
tious motives to the Noble l'ilarquis. Every Member was
free to express his peculiar opinions, and he could assure
the Noble Marquis that he would always listen to him with
attention and respect, however widely he might differ with
him on certain points. With respect to the observation of
an lion. Baronet about the Guards, be would say that it

was a great advantage to habituate them to service out 111
London ; and he could only say, that it was always the
custom to keep a battalion of Guards at Windsar.
Sir IL HERON said lie was touch disappointed at the
small retrenchment effected by his Majesty's Ministers, but
he could not agree with the Noble Marquis that the people
would be disappointed, bee sure they had long abandoned
the hope of receiving any relief Isom those who were
falsely called their Representatives. Ile believed that a
great reduction miAt be made in the militai y estimates
without injuring the efficiency of the service ; a great
swing too might be gradually made in the half-pay. It
was unjust to the country that that which was originally
intended merely as a provision for superannuated and
wounded men, should be now converted into a fee-simple
and transferrable estate. Ile contended, therefore, that
half-pay should not be suffered to be transferred by the
purchasea of Commissions. With respect to pensions, too
he thought a reduction might be effected ; not by interfer-
ing with those already granted, by tusking some regulation
which would only entitle those hereafter entering the army
to lower pensions earned by a longer service. He consi-
dered that there would be no hardship in this when they
looked to the condition of the navy, and observed how
'smell less advantageous were the prospects of the sailor.
Ile would neat ask what had become of the promise of re-
duction in Ireland, and why useless colonies should be re-
tained at such an enormous expense? He thought, for
instance, that the lonian Isles ought to be at once given
up to the ally from which they had been something un-
kindly taken.
Mr. MABERLY said that, in consequence of the abo-
lition of the Finance Committee, the time for making any
useful opposition to a profuse expenditure had gone by ;
they might now examine and consider the various items,
but they possessed not the power of doing snore. The
Government were determined that in this great branch of
the expenditure there should be very little saving. But,
however hopeless of producing any good effect, he could
not refrain from remarking that the simple payment of
20,000 men by the East India Company was by Tin means
sufficient, when it was considered that the country was
put to a great expense for the maintenance of depots anal
other preparatory establishments. He suggested, there-
fore, that an additional charge ought to be placed on the
East India Company. He also recommended that the
payment of General Officers should be fixed, and that
when Colonels of regiments they should not b.; permitted
to be contractors. He did not propose to have agency
altogether abolished, but he thought a large proportion of
the Civil Establishment ought to be done away with, by
the consolidation of offices He knew it was useless for
him to say this, and that the gallant General would get up
and advocate the existing system. And indeed lie had upon
all occasions found reason to remark, in the Finance Com-
mittee, that each gentleman who gave evidence was so
strongly attached to his own profession, that little reduc-
tion could be effected in his department, if the opinions he
professed were- attended to. But he thought the House
ought not, upon the present occasion, to he influenced by
Naval and Military opinions, or else no great saving ever
could be made. In allying thin, however, lie spoke under
the melancholy impression that they only enjoyed the right
of examining the item, without the power of amending
them.

Mr. HUME had been strongly urged by many of his
friends to make no further opposition, because it was evi-
dently useless; but the distresses of the country urged him
on. It was now certai❑ that 89,000 soldiers and 30,000
seame❑ would be forced upon the country. Still, how-
ever, he would not discontinue his opposition. See what
a state they were in,—he meant the House. Every Hon.
Member on the other side of the House to whom be had
spoken had said—" This is very bad ; the establishments
ought to be reduced." "'Then said I," continued the
Hon. Member, " why don't you vote with us?" " No,"
they replied, "we can't vote with you, but we will do
any thing else."—(Hear, and laughter.)—Out of the
House, therefore, where they could do nothing, Gentle-

men would express their real wishes, and say -what the
people wanted ; but in the House, where they could (1,)
something, they were silent. Now %vas not this a proor
that Gentlemen came here to serve themselves, and not to
serve the country ?—(Hear, and laughter.)—When the
House of Commons acted in this way from within, force
was to be expected from without, as the only mode of ob-
taining redress.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition
benehos.)--What was it that eAnpelled even the Sultan—
what was it that compelled even the most despotic Go-

vernments to listen to the complaints of the people, but
the dread of the acts of the people? The lion. Member
for Kent (Sir E. Knateldmil) had stated on a former night
that there were only two ways of obtaining a remedy.

.•
The first was to bring up the prices of every article to
the rate that existed before the peace, in order that those
who produced them might thus be enabled to pay the
taxes. To this proposition he (Mr. Hume) could never
assent; neither could he sanction any alteration in the
currency, believing as he did that we ought to have allx,ol
and permanent metallic standard, instead of a paper cir.
ciliation, which was always liable to vary. The a cowl
course proposed by the Hon. Member was, to reduce our
establishments in proportion to the reduction which had

taken place iu the -value of money. In this he (Mr.
Hume) entirely concurred ; and, unless Ministers (lid so,
they would be compelled to do it by the people.—
(Hear, bear.)--But, when Ministers were called upon
to reduce the taxes, what was it that was done by the
Rerpresentatives of the people in that House, or those
who called themselves by that name? Why, out of 658
Members who were returned to the House, only 93
voted in favour of reduction.—(Hear, hear. )—With
such an extreme disproportion, it might very fairly be pre-
sumed that any stranger coming here, and seeing the
votes on -both sides, might be led to conclude that the
people of England desired no reduction, and were per-
fectly content with matters as they stood. The stranger
would naturally think that the wishes of the p, ogle of En-
land were expreswd, not by the minority but by the ma-
jority, whereas the.very -reverse was the case. lie would
call upon Ministers to look at what had recently been done
by the States of Holland. They stopped the supplies, and
refused to grant a single shilling till the grievances of the
people were redressed. The consequence was, that both
the King of the Netherlands and his Mini.ters were ob-
liged, however reluctantly, to meet the wants and wishes
of the people. lie (Mr. Hume) would be glad to see
something of the kind done in this country ; it had been
done in former times, when the necessity for it was no
less urgent than at present. He should like to see Mini-
sters placing their whole strength upon the affections of
the people, and not, as they were, depsuding for support
upon a few magnates, who acted as if they had nothing in
common with the people, consulting neither their wants.
wishes, nor interests.—(Hear.)—Of what use was the
House of Commons, except to speak the mind of the
people? But could this House of Commons be said to
speak the; mind of the people ? No man surely
would be bold enough to say that it did.—(Loud
cheers.)—No House of Commons, with such an At-
torney-General as we had now, could for a mo-
ment be said to speak the mind of the people.—
(Repeated cheers.)—lle, himself, had often stated
that one of the great benefits of a House of Commons,
was, that the Attorney-General had no right to exercise
his authority within these walls, and restrain the freedom
of speech.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear ! from the Oppo-
sition Benches. )—ln what a situation would they be, if,
upon making any complaint, or stating any grievance,
they were li Able to be brought np, and rendered amenable,
by the Attorney-General acting under the direction of the
Duke of Wellington ?—(Hear, hear.)—He was sure that
no public officer would do so, unless acting under the di-
rection of the Cabinet, or of the Duke of Wellington, who
was the Cabinet.—(Cheers and laughter.)—Let Ministers
only look to the thous•utds who were starving throughout
every part of the country—let them only look to the num-
berless paupers that covered the land in every quarter—let
them look at these, an 1 many other equally evident marks
of misery, and he would thsn ask them to consider
whether they were not fearful signs of approaching dan-
ger, such as no Government ought to pass unheeded? Mi-
nisters ought to look to them before even the most patient
were pressed to au extremity beyond endurance. The time
might probably soon arrive foe such a crisis. Should he
say that he would be sorry for it? Quite the contrary—he
should rejoke when it did arrive, seeing that Ministers
were ie.-sensible and dead to the voice of the nation.—
(Cheers.)—lt was only by an event of this description that
decidedly despotic power
answered controlled.).ea
r representation of the State.—(Cheers )-- What passed in
Government could be brought to a sense of its duty, and
b
people
liii ea
du:li go 1 ',rt. :cm,
iasked,n tl
was ever despotic power exercised in this country ? Ile
for tplteuti
that House was most commonly for the benefit of the few
1