The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-06 00:00:00

AFFAIRS OF PORTUGAL.

Lord PALMERSTON wished to correct an
error which had appeared on the notices respecting
his motion on the affairs of Portugal. It was fixed
there for Thursday, whereas, in point of fact, he had
named no day ; but as next Wednesday was the
only open day, he would fix it then.
Mr. SLANEY postponed his motion respecting
the employment of the poor till Monday week. He
also postponed his motion relating to the malt and
beer duties till the 2d of April.
The petition was brought up, and ordered to lie
on the table.
Sir 11. VIVIAN moved that the House be called
over on the 16th inst.---Ordered.
On the motion of Lord Howtcx, were ordered
certain returns relating to the progress of the lin-
provements in Canadian canals.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved for returns of the
amount of duties of the Excise paid into the Ex-
chequer during eight weeks preceding the sth of
January, 1829 ; and also for similar returns during
the same period preceding the sth of January in the
present year.—Ordered.
A message was received from the Lords, request-
ing that Sir Hyde East might be permitted to at-
tend their Lordships' Committee on the subject of
the East India Company, in order that they might
have the benefit of his evidence ; and also requesting
that the fifth report of the Committee on the East
India Company might he communicated to their
Lordships.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved the Order of the day for receiving the Report
of the Committee of Supply.
Sir A. GRANT brought up the report, on which

. .
Mr. HUME could not suffer the present oppor-
tunity to pass withAt pressing on Ministers the ne-
cessity of retrenchment, for the purpose of meeting
as they ought the present exigencies of the country.
The practicability of the reductions he proposed
could be very easily demonstrated. The Royal
Horse Guards, for example, officers and men in-
cluded, amounted to but 779 in number in 1792;
but in these our days they were not short of 1,304.
This additional expense was for mere purposes of
ostentation and parade, which, in his opinion, might
be readily dispensed with, and they could therefore
be reduced by at least 500 men, Then the Foot
Guards in 1792 were only 3,756, but were now not
less than 5,726. The Cavalry, which was then hut
5,409, now numbered 7,157. In the household
troops a similar prodigality prevailed, as they had
also been increased in proportion. Yet these troops
were quite useless so far as regarded foreign service,
and the practical efficiency of our police render their
existence at all in a great degree unnecessary. He
should also propose a reduction of the troops in
Ireland to the amount of .5,700 men, which might
well be spared in consequence of the altered circum-
stances of that country. A reduction of 10,000
men in ail; department might certainly be effected
without the least injury to our national interests,
or any of our establishments. He would, there-
fore more the insertion of 71,164 instead of the
88,848 which were at present proposed.
Sirri. HARDINGE should not think it neces-
sary to trouble the House with any observations in
reply to what had, been stated, if it was the object
of the lion. Member merely to place on record his
own opinion, without intending to press his motion
to a division.
The original resolution was then carried, And the
amendment lost without a division.

The other resolutions were agreed to unatii.
mously, and the report was ordered to be taken into
further consideration on Monday nest,
On the putting of the question that 26,000 men
be voted for the navy,
Lord ALTHORP rose for the purpose of In-
quiring what might be the reason for omitting all
mention in the Gazelle of a brilliant action at Patras,
in which our navy had acquitted itself so gallantly
when in collision with a superior force. The 'l'urks
at the time were able to command an effective force
amounting to not less than .50 vessels, whilst that
commanded by our Admiral was considerably infe-
rior. Sir Edward Codrington had, however, com-
pelled the enemy to retire, and gallantly hazarded
I
an action which well sustained the naval reputation
of the country._________
...

Sir G. COCKBURN did not profess to know
any specific reason why the affair alluded to was not
announced in the Gazette. On our insisting that
the Turkish fleet should retire, they went back
without making any opposition. There might per-
haps have been a shot fired, but he could not 165 y
that there was.

Lord ALTHORP—Several shots were fired, if
I am not greatly misinformed.
Sir G. COCKBURN in conclusion, had reason
to believe it was not such an action as was usually
inserted officially in. the Gazette.
_ . _

Mr. HUMS observed, in reference to the sub-
ject snore immediately before the House, that the
Finance Committee of 1817 had fixed the marine
force at the number of 19,000, but their number
at present amounted to 29,000. This was gross
and palpable extravagance, but he contented himself
with protesting against it personally, as he perceived
it was useless to go farther.—Agreed to.
Sir H. HARDINGE gave notice that he should
move for leave to bring in the Mutiny Bill on the
24th instant.

Mr. CROKER gave a similar notice with re-
spect to the Marine Mutiny Bill for the same day.

EAST RETFORD.
Mr. N. CA I.VERT moved that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee on the subject
of East Retford.

On the putting of the question that the Speaker
should leave the Chair,
Mr. TENNYSON moved, that instructions be
given to the - Committee for the exclusion of the
borough of East Retford from the right of electing
Burgesses to serve in Parliament, in order that the
town of Birmingham might ba enabled to return
two representatives in lieu thereof. The Hon.
Gentleman observed, that the opinions of the
House had undergone a change with respect to
the expediency of this measure since 1827, as 60 or
'7O additional votes in favour of his proposal wire to
be found in the division which had taken place
during the present Session. In his opinion the
character of the Houso—itself would sustain an
injury if thieoreeommendation should.be rejected.
Mr. W. SMITH said, that the only question was,
to what place should the franchise be transferred.—
(Hear.)—Now he conceived the transferring it to

the adjacent hundred of Bassetlaw would be only a
new change of the locality of pernicious influence,
and should therefore vote for the Hon. Member for
Bletchineley's proposition.
Mr. FERGUSSON Ncould also vote for the mo-
tion for transferring the elective franchise to Bir-
mingham.
Mr. BATLEY was opposed to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bletchingley's motion, and would vote for
that of the Hon. Member for Herefordshire.
Alderman WAITHMAN did not require the for-
mality of a petition to induce him to vote for the
transfer of the franchise of corrupt boroughs, like
East Retford, to the large populous manufacturing
towns. Ail the interests of the country 'should be
duly represented in that House; the agricultural
was so—:he commercial not equally so; he there-
fore should at all times be willing to vote for propo-
sitions of a similar tendency to that proposed by the
Hon. Member for Bletchingley.
Sir C. COLE would, on the present occasion,
vote with the Hon. Member for Bletchingley,
though far from thereby implying an advocacy of
sweeping reform, or of more than transferring to the
great populous towns the elective franchise, which
boroughs like East Retford had, through corrupt
practices, forfei'el.
Mr. LInDI.-.:LL had also voted against the NoLle
Lord on the occasion alluded to by the gallant Bart.,
but would most certainly vote with the Noble Lord
next Session, should Ministers then oppose the
Hon. Member for Bletchingley's motion. He did
not like to add to the numbers of that House, and
therefore should not approve of the proposition of
investing the unrepresented large towns with the
elective franchise, as proposed by the Noble Lord,
till a numerical equivalent had previously been esta-
blished by the disfranchisement of corrupt boroughs;
but if the transfer of the franchise of East Ret-
ford was made that evening to the hundred of Bas-
setlaw instead of Birmingham, he would vote with
the Noble Member for Bandon the next time he
brought the subject before the House.
Sir G. MURRAY would vote for the Hon.
Member for Hereford's motion, as he had voted for
it last Session. lie did not thereby think he was
adding to the landed representation in that House
at the expense of the manufacturing. Indeed, he
had ever maintained that there was—that there
could be—no collusion of interest between
them; that in fact the motto of the commercial and
agricultural interests was—concordia crescent.
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with the Right Hon.
Baronet, that there could, in a national point of
view, be no collusion of interest between the two
great classes—the manufacturing and the agricultural
—and the community—but contended that both
were not equally represented in that House. He
thought the commercial interest was not sufficiently
represented, and therefore had a few evenings since
submitted his plan of remedy. That plan—and he
had no other—had not been approved of, but it was
not the less incumbent on the Government to de-
vise some mode by which the great populous towns
should be duly represented.—( Hear.)
Mr. W. HORTON should on the present occa-
sion vote for the Hon. Member for 13Ietchingley's
motion —(Hear.)
The SOLICITOR•GENERAL strongly recom.
mended the House not to depart from the course
which they had already deliberately sanctioned, of
transferring the franchise to the adjoining hundred.
He said this with a perfect desire to ensure a prac-
tical benefit ; for there might elsewhere be difficul-
ties of an insurmountable nature, were they, as the
evidence stood, to proceed by insisting on the total
disfranchisement of the borough.
Mr. BRANSBY COOPER would also vote for
the transfer to the hundred, in conformity with the
course which he had hitherto taken respecting this
Bill.

Mr. SPRING RICE only rose to protest against
the doctrine of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
(the Solicitor-General), that they were to be go-
verned in that House by the views which might be
taken in the House of Lords of any question which
was hereafter to be sent up there. This was a (pies-
tion of all others for the House of Commons to de-
cide upon their sense of its own merits, as represen-
tatives of the people, without reference to the opinion
which might elsewhere be entertained upon the sub-
ject, Notorious delinquency was proved. The re-
medy was to transfer the representation to a popu-
lous town, where the elective franchise was essen-
tially wanted.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in explanation,
said, that his allusion to another place had merely
reference to the judicial operation of the evidence
before them, and was by no means intended to
restrict the undoubted legislative capacity of that
House.
Mr. S. RICE was happy that the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman bad not broached the un-
constitutional doctrine which he at first conceived
him to have given utterance to.
Mr. PEEL would content himself with request-

ing the House to adhere to its own recordeddecl
sions—to extend the franchise to the adjoining hun.
dyed. In doing so, they adhered to the precedents
et some of the highest authorities of reform who
had ever appeared in that House. On the Shore-
ham question, Lord Chatham had acted on that
principle, and in allusion to the sort of property
supposed to be invested in the purchase of that bo-
rough, used the remarkable phrase, " I have res-
cued fZhorcham from India, and restored it to Eng-
land." In 1753 Mr. Pitt followed precisely the
same course with reference to the borough of Crick-
lade, and was supported in the transfer to the hun-
dred by no less distinguished a reformer than Mr.
Fox. In the Aylesbury case Mr. Fox went so far
as to oppose the transfer to the hundred, on the
ground that a sufficient case of delinquency had not
been made out against that borough to warrant its
disfranchisement. In the present case, he contended
that Ministers were acting in strict conformity with
the practice of Parliament. They would be infus-
ing new vigour into the representative system by
transferring from this borough to 2,000 respectable
freeholders out of it the elective franchise. This
would not, As some imagined, foster any predomi.
nant interest if; favour of the counties against the
commercial representation, the relative proportion
of which had been always carefully preserved in
regtil;:ting the system of popular representation.
He saw no new circumstances to induce the House

Ito depart from the decision it had formerly come to;
and he did see a combim.tion of circumstances with
respect to the representation cf Nottinghamshire,
and with respect to the course the House had uni-
formly taken, to ipduce him to adhere to the vote
he had already given op the question now before
the House.
Lord ALTHORP was of opinion greater good
would be effected by transferring the forfeited fran-
chises to great manufacturing towns.
Dr. Pmwmortu thought, that though Lord
Chatham had acted very properly at the time when
he lived,.in giving the franchise of Shoreham to the
adjoining hundred, yet he had no doubt that if he
were now living, and the state of Birmingham
brought under his consideration, he would at once
propose to transfer the franchise to that town.
Lord J, RUSSELL said that the Right lion.
Secretary (Mr. vagi) alluded to a plan of his, of ad-
dinr, 100 Members to the House, 60 for counties,
and. 40 for towns. To that pian, ertd that propor-
tion, lie had only to say, that he still ent;rely ad-
hered ; but he thought that the manner in which
one or two vacanc;4c in the House were to be sup-
plied had nothing whateva to do with his plan.
Mr. HUSKISSO:\ said that thg House did not
represent the population of the country. It ought
to represent not only the landed interest, but every
interest. The interest which he wished to see re-
presented by Members for Birmingham was trot re-
presented in that House, and that was the, reason
why he should give his vote in favour of the motion.
It had been truly said that commerce formed the
power and prosperity of the country, and it would
be equally true to say that it formed the foundation
of the power and prosperity of the landed interest.
Though the motion to give representatives to Bir-
mingham might be lost to-night, yet he was confident