The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-03 00:00:00

'11414,; SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 3, 1863,

THE DEBATE IN THE PRUSSIAN
CHAMBERS.

(From the Vines' Correspondent.)

BERLIN, Feb. 27.—This being Friday, postally
corresponding with Sunday in London, I the more
regret that it yesterday was impossible to send you
a better account of the first day's debate on the
Polish resolution than was comprised in a few hasty
and imperfect jottings. Before proceeding to a
closer examination of it, we may briefly sum up the
declarations of Government, made in its course,
with respect to the Russian convention. M. Von
Bismark said that every overstepping of the fron-
tier, whether by Prussian or Russian troops, re-
quired previously to be consented to by Prussia:;
that Lord Russell's declarations with respect to the
contents of the agreement with Russia were incor-
rect ; and that the presumptions of the report of
the committee concerning the possibility of Russian
marches into Prussia were false. You are already
acquainted with Count Eulenburg's declaration re-
specting the Poles arrested at Thorn, and who, their
passports not being in order, were sent across the
Russian frontier. The Chamber received the an-
nouncement with marks of great disapprobation,
wherepon Count Eulenburg quoted, in his justifica-
tion, Art. 23 of the Cartel-Convention, which says
Russian subjects, not having their papers in order,
can be sent across the frontier by the Prussian
authorities, and must be received by the Russians.
Supported by this paragraph the Prussian Govern-
ment had thought proper to send the four young
men in question into Russia—probably to Siberia,
or to life-long service in the ranks. The speech of
the day, however, was unquestionably that of the
Minister-President Von Bismark- Schonhausen,
which, unrivalled for its insolence, was in every
way worthy of the remarkable statesman who spoke
it. He began by denouncing the successive inter-
pellations with respect to the Prusso-Russian con-
vention, or, as it is now generally termed, the
Polish question. The Government had deemed it
for the interest of the State to decline answering,
and, in any other Parliament that he knew of, the
most malcontent Opposition would thereupon have
desisted from further inquiries. He added :

"Therewith I couple the wish, Give us an Eng-
lish Lower House, and then ask us for English in-
stitutions. (Agitation. A Voice—' Upper House !')
The Upper House is less important. (Great laugh -
ter.) A Lower House like the English would ren-
der our Upper House unn,,cessary."
M. Von Bismark then turned to the speeches made
by Waldeck and Unruh in the former debate on the
same subject. He said :

'Deputy Unruh had dechired, amidst the ap-
plause of the Chamber, that if the measures taken
by Government for the security of Prussian fron--
tiers and interests were to lead to external compli-
cations, the means for the defence of the country
should be refused to the Ring. Is not that saying
to the foreigner, Come hither; the moment is fa-
vourable ? Prussia'—(lnterruption and contradic-
tion.) lam glad to see that you yet express a feel-
ing of indignation—(lnterruption and cries of
' 0 rder.' )"

Vice-President Bebrend requested silence, and
said that the Minister had made use of no expres-
sions necessitating a call to order. M. Von Bis-
mark resumed, and said he would not yet raise the
question how far Ministers were liable to be called
to order. The threat to leave Prussia defenceless
had been spoken by that same deputy, Von Unruh,
whose name was connected with the refusal of taxes
in 1848. Here there was fresh interruption, and
the Vice-President told the Minister that his last
words had nothing whatever to do with the question
before the Chamber.

M. Von Bismark—l will permit myself to remark
to the President that I cannot admit his right to a
disciplinary interruption of my speeches. I have
not the honour to be a member of this Assembly ;
I did not make your regulations nor share in the
election of your Presidents ; I am not subject to
the disciplinary influence of the Chamber. The
discip!inary power of the President ceases at this
bar. (The table at which the Ministers sit.) My
only superior is his Majesty the King, and I have
to learn that any legal or constitutional enactment
has placed me under the discipline of the President
of this house. (Interruption.)
Vice-President Behrend—l have not deprived the
Minister-President of the word, nor could I do so
consistently with the Constitution. But according
to the regulations of this house, its President exer-
cises disciplinary power so far as its four walls ex-
tend—(loud applause)—and that power will I exert.
M. Von Bismark-1 do not speak here in virtue
of your regulations, but in that of the authority de-
puted to me by the King. On the ground of the
paragraph of the Constitution which prescribes that
the Ministers must be allowed to speak and must
be heard as often as they demand it. (Interruption.)
You have no right to interrupt me. I must mark
that view as an erroneous one, which the Govern-
ment does not share. I was saying, then, the same
Deputy Von Unruh who, in 1848, indelibly asso-
' ciated his name with the refusal of taxes. (Violent
commotion in the Chamber; cries of "It is scan-
dalous, adjourn." The President rings his bell con-
tinuously.)
Vice-President Behrend—l shall find myself com-
pelled, in conformity with the regulation in such
cases, to adjourn the sitting—(applause)—if the
Minister-President should repeat expressions which
I have declared do not pertain to the debate. (Ap-
plause.)

aVd
Jo
onu Bir
n nmga. r k
TI havecannnoont e
epreventt
etmh
ee n
,Pargeasiin-
del‘nit.
to repeat what I have twice said, and what you, I
apprehend, aye understood. (Great commotion in
the Chamber, cries for and against an adjournment.)
The threat to leave Prussia defenceless is happily an
impotent one, but the remark is thereby suggested
that the tendencies, the words, the names of 1848
again appear in the foreground of the stage.
The European revolution is connected and
mutually supporting in all countries; it is
natural that a movement in Poland, which,
according to proofs that lie before us, has been
prepared with Ma zzini's co-operation, and
which, according to known facts, is being car-
ried cut with Mieroslawski's assistance, should find
support from the revolutionary element in all coun-
tries. Under these circumstances, gentlemen, it is
proposed to you to testify your sympathy with the
Polish insurrection by the acceptance of to-day's
resolution. (Sensation.) It is not my business to
criticize the object of the gentlemen who bring it
forward. But the effect produced throughout the
whole world by the acceptance of the resolution will
unquestionably be those who vote for it constitute
themselves, to a certain extent, partisans of the
Polish insurrection. (Great agitation, animated
dissent.) You recommend to the Government—if,
that is to say, you will look upon the resolution in
the light of a recommendation—to favour neither of
the two parties. That the Government would not
favour the insurgents might be foreseen by the
Chamber ; the only possible conclusion then is, that
you would fain protect the insurrection from the
prejudices that might result to it from the attitude
of this Government. (Sensation.)
Comment is unnecessary on the language and de-
clarations of the Minister in the stormy scene de-
scribed in the commencement of the above extract.
I need scarcely add, that yesterday, as on all such
occasions, the insolence of his tone and manner fully
corresponded with the provoking and aggressive
character of his d wor s. The latter portion of the
extract, his declamation
European Revolution, &e., was got up expressly
for behoof of his Majesty the King, and will have
won M. von Bismark
much
good will from the
feudal and military party, whose constant endeavour
and a main point of whose tactics •
it is to keep
the Red Spectre of Democracy in a permanently
menacing attitude before the Sovereign's
eyes. The
Chamber perfectly understood the Minister's

design. He presently passed on to the Gm
which he styled the sea-serpent of the E,,: -opean
press, the product of newspaper lies and ( f tele-
grams concerning what had passed in a foreign
Parliament. It had been said that a strip of terri-
tory comprising 500 square miles (German) was
abandoned to the horrors of Russian campaigning,
and on this statement the whole argument rested.
" But on the idea of this strip of territory is an
imaginary picture," continued M. von Bismark, " a
mere idle invention." (Hereupon there was a sensa-
tion in the Chamber.) "The nature of the agreement
entered into with Russia completely guaranteed
Prussia against all danger of such a war on her
frontier territory."
The substance of M. von Bismark's declaration
'has been given at the beginning of this letter. Tho
remainder of his speech does not need condensation
here. It was a continual sparring at the Chamber,
which beard it with frequent murmurs and signs
of disapprobation. Some remarks by Deputy San •
ger brought the Minister to his legs again, to repeat
that the frontier could not be passed either by
Russian or Prussian troops without previous con-
sent of Prussia. M. Twesten then spoke at consider-
able length; one or two of the principal points of
his speech were cited to you yesterday. Referring
to M. von Bismark's having laughed at the informa-
tion which gave rise to the debate, and having
called the Convention a sea-serpent, an invention of
the press, &c., he said that the Minister must
thank his Ambassador in London, from whom and
from the Russian Ambassador Lord Russell had
received the news concerning the Convention which
he communicated to the English Upper H.,use ; or
else be must affirm that Lord RUSE 1. him-
self bad lied. (Hear.) With Lord Russell's i forma-
tion completely coincided those statement:, in the
public press which, after what had passed in
the English Parliament, must be taken as true."
Once more M. von Bismark rose. He said—
" The last speaker has repeatedly reverted to the
proceedings of the English Parliament, and to the
information that has reached Berlin concerning
them. He has accepted as authentic the newspaper
reports of them, and he compels me to declare that
if Lord Russell's words have been rightly reported
in the papers they do not exactly represent the
facts. We have neither concluded nor does there
exit t any stipulation with Russia which corresponds
with what Lord Russell said in the English Parlia-
ment. I nevertheless must, in the most decided
manner, take into protection that English statesman,
personally known to me as honourable, against the
severe reproach to be inferred against him from the
words of the last speaker." (Here a number of
Deputies burst into a hearty and evidently irresis-
tible laugh. It was truly comic to have a political
gamin of M. von Bismark's calibre proffering his
guarantee for the honourableness of Lord Russell,
and generously taking him under his protection.)
" Lord Russell himself said in his speech that be
did not know the contents of the agreement or
stipulation, as he called them. lam doubtful—at
least it is not present to my memory—whether our
Ambassador in England could then have been ac-
quainted with the words of the Convention. The
words, however, gentlemen, are in such matters all-
important ; they are wont to be cautiously drawn
up. The moral of the matter is, that it is not pru-
dent to speak of things one does not know, and I
think that you all, and also the last speaker (M.
Twesten) will arrive at the same conviction when
the exact contents of our agreement shall once have
become public."
The Chamber soon afterwards adjourned.
FEBRUARY 28.

The pitch at which hostilities between the Minis-
try and the Chamber have arrived, and especially
the amenities of Thursday's debate, have induced
many persons to believe it impossible that the two
bodies could both continue to exist. Either the
Cabinet, it was thought, must fall, or the Session
must be brought to an abrupt close, probably by a
dissolution. An Opposition journal this morning
expresses that opinion, the correctness of which I
nevertheless think myself justified in doubting. The
Ministerial crisis has been got over, according to
appearances, and after at least one very nar-
row escape from a break up of the Cabinet, and
it seems possible that things may continue as they
yet are some time longer. M. Bismark hopes by
keeping the Chamber together, and by acting un-
constitutionally in the teeth of its decisions, to dis-
credit it in the eyes of the country. This he very
plainly declared in yesterday's debate. M. Vincke
opened it with a long speech, which seems to have
pleased nobody—not even his own friends and most
consistent admirers. He declared himself strongly
opposed, in the interests of this country, to a recon-
stitution of the kingdom of Poland, whose first
symptom of vitality must be a dismemberment of
Prussia. The existence of Prussia he said depended
on the non-existence of a Polish State. He repudi-
ated the sort of parallel established by Lord Ellen-
borough between the present Polishinsurrectionand
the German war of liberation. He indignantly re-
jected any such comparison. He could not agree to
the convention because he was not acquainted with
it; but if the Minister-President referred to Eng-
land to show that the convention was too much
talked of (see Thursday's debate) he (Vincke) would
reply—" Give us an English Upper House, which
has a constitutional basis, which our Herrenhaus
has not ; an Upper House which recognises as its
first duty the defence of the constitution of the
country. (Bravo.) Give us, above all, an Eng-
lish Ministry. (Applause.) Not a Ministry which
when the representatives of the people are busied
with the most serious affairs reproaches them with
wasting the time of the Government—(bravo)—not
a Ministry which meets the Representative Assem-
bly with such disdain." (Bravo.) After these well
merited hits at the present Cabinet it was with no
little surprise that the Chamber heard M. Vincke
say, towards the close of his speech, that he had
witnessed with pleasure the appointment of M.
Bismark as Prime Minister. The end of his speech
was in substance as follows ;—" In a country like
Prussia dangerous crises could terminate favourably
for the nation only when the policy of the Govern-
ment was supported by the enthusiasm of t he whole
people. (Bravo.) 'When a Ministry, in the long
run, found so little support as the presee •, he re-
peated that its obstinate retention of °Me, was the
ruin of the State. (Loud applause.) He was the
more at liberty to say this because his opposition
to the Ministry was sine ira et studio. Sine ira,
because he had joyfully greeted the Minister-
President on his entrance into office—(laughter)--
sine studio, because it was not his political friends
whc would, after the fall of this Cabinet, take their
seats on the Ministerial bench, but, according to all
constitutional rules, the leaders of the party which
should have the majority in the Chamber. (Laugh-
ter.) If he, after "Waldeck's speech, had grave
misgivings with respect to that deputy's foreign
policy, the trial must yet, nevertheless, be made.
The country must learn wisdom from suffering.
(Great laughter.) He summed up his views by
urging that all possible favour should be shown to
Russia in the present contest, short of sending
Prussian troops into Russia, or allowing Russian
troops to enter Prussia. Act for Prussia's interest,
and without injury to Prussia's honour."
M. Vincke's speech was decidedly one of the
least happy of his oratorical efforts, and was very
coldly received. It is a peculiarity of that deputy
that when he sees an opening for attack he never
can resist it, even though he may thereby damage
his own cause. His yesterday's speech comprised
more than one sarcastic onslaught on members of
the Opposition, and, upon the whole, seems con-
sidered to have been rather favourable than other-
wise to Government. With reference to the appre-
hensions he expressed as to the prejudie4 to result
to Prussia from an overstepping of her r:ontier by
the Russians, M. von Bismark repeated his assur-
ance that the agreement entered into ( on3pletely
secured Prussia against that eventuality. People do

not place much faith in his Excellency's assurances,
and suspect some quibble in the matter. He said
on Thursday that the Russians could not come over
the frontier without authorisation from this side.
Bet, it is asked, by whom is that authorisation to
be given ? Will it be in the power of any Prussian
general or colonel, commanding on a given point of
the frontier, to permit the entrance of a Russian
column ? The well-authenticated accounts daily re-
ceived of the atrocities committed by the Russian
troops in Poland naturally render the Prussians ex-
tremely averse to their admission into this country.
M. von Ilennig, deputy for Strasburg, in the pro-
vince of Prussia, close to the Russo-Polish frontier,
rose when M. von Bismark sat down, and, after a
sarcastic reference to Vincko's habitually dogmati-
cal and dictatorial style, attacked the Ministry. In
Berlin, he said, people are very ill-informed as to
what passes in the province of Posen, and the
Minister of the Interior had, upon the previous day,
supplied an example of this. (Count Eulenberg
had denied that the frontier had been crossed.)
Russian troops had crossed the Prussian frontier.
The Minister-President had expressed his regret at
having to be present at the discussion of the pre-
sent question. He (Deputy Hennig) and his friends
found the Minister's speeches always very interest-
ing, and certainly highly provocative of merriment.
Was it not comical to hear the old story of '4B
warmed up at this time of day ; to hear it said that
the Chamber wished to leave Prussia defenceless,
and to invite in the foreigner ? Surely it became
the first duty of the Minister-President to advise
the King to dissolve such a treasonable Chamber ?
(Hear, hear.) Why did he not do so ? Probably
because he well knew that the Chamber would be
re-elected. Passing then to the Polish question,
M. von Hennig declared positively that Prussian
troops had been on Russian territory, and Russians
on Prussian ground. All the civil authorities in
the frontier provinces had been directed to carry
out the orders of the Generals. Such ought only
to be allowed in case of a general mobilisation, and
not when merely the reserves were called out. He
had the conviction that the convention was one
which no Government careful of the interests of
the country would have concluded. M. Hennig
being from the frontier, and having sore suurces of
information, his statements carried weight.
M. Bismark's reply excited the mockery of the
House. " The facts," he said,
"Brought forward by the previous speaker with
respect to crossing the frontier were, upon the whole,
very scanty. (Oh, oh !) He himself had no know-
ledge of them, and did not consider them sufficiently
important to inquire about. (Oh, oh !) It was un-
important whether the frontiers had been over-
stepped, whether a gendarme or two had crossed
them or not. Troops might cross the frontier with-
out even knowing whether they were on foreign
territory or not. It had often enough happened
that 20 or 30 Russian or Prussian officers had gone
across to visit their friends." (Laughter and
astonishment.)
It was not without reason that Deputy Virchow
afterwards said that the Minister President's man-
ner of expressing himself on affairs of State was
such as one might evpect to hear among a party of
students.

" The last speaker," M. von Bismark continued,
" asked me why we do not dissolve the Chamber.
Before we do that, gentlemen, we should like the
country to have an opportunity to learn to know
you right well." (Oh, oh, and laughter.)
M. von Bonin, an independent deputy, who can-
not be strictly said to belong to any fraction of the
Chamber, but who is of the old Prussian Liberal
party, next spoke. He was lately President of the
province of Posen, but was removed on account of
his political opinions. He declared that had the
state of things in the province been as it is now
four weeks ago, when he was still in office, he would
most decidedly have opposed the exceptional mea-
sures that have been taken. " Has the Govern-
ment," he said,—

" Really so little knowledge of the circumstances
as to believe (as M. von Bismark lately said) that
the expense of those measures will be covered by a
few hundred thousand thalers ?"

Schulze-Delitsch, the well-known and eloquent
Fortschritt deputy and leader, made a speech which
was the best of the day, and confirmed Deputy
Hennig's statements with respect to the passage of
the frontier. " I have before me," he continued,—

"A letter from a member of the Association for
the Protection of German Interests in Posen—an
association which here also has an especial claim to
be acknowledged as reliable in its judgments—a
letter containing such bitter complaints of the con-
vention that it is not possible to read it here. I
will refer only to one passage of it. The effect of
the measures taken has been most unfavourable to
traffic, trade, and credit, which last has been de-
stroyed by the manifesto of the Over-President.
Also the position of the Germans in the kingdom of
Poland should be weighed. A great deal of German
capital is employed in Poland; many Germans are
there resident. The most violent antipathy would
be aroused against these. Our Baltic ports, too, are
much affected by the measures taken ; the conclu-
sion of affairs is rendered difficult ; the premium
against war risks on Prussian ships is raised. The
Government damages all interests, of Poles and of
Germans, at home and abroad."

The debate concluded to-day. The resolution was
carried by 246 against 57. The majority was com-
posed of the Vincke fraction, the Catholics, and the
Conservatives. Von Sybel made a remarkable
speech. Vice-President Behrend declared that, al-
though he had not authorised its publication, the
conversation reported in the papers as having occur-
red between him and M. vonißismark (with respect
to Poland falling to Prussia, &c., as mentioned in
one of my recent letters) had really taken place.