The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-21 00:00:00

IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in answer to a
question from Mr. RIC HA RD S, said he was ex-
ceedingly distressed that he should put the Honourable
Member for Knaresborough to any inconvenience. If the
Irish Municipal Reform Bill should be disposed of before 10
o'clock,hewould endeavour to bring on the Imprisonment for Debt
Bill. If he could not bring it on to-night he would try to-
morrow night to do so; if not to-morrow night he would
try on Wednesday, and again on Thursday night, and
if he found it impossible to bring it on this week he would
fix it for Monday, the 3d of April.
Sir W. FOLLETT said this was a Government measure,
and the Attorney-General ought to fix some day. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said it had been fixed for Friday, the
10th, but the whole of that evening was occupied by a discussion
on Spanish affairs.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then resolved itself into Committee on this Bill.
The preamble was postponed, and the Ist, 2d, and 3d
clauses were agreed to without discussion.

On the 4th clause being put,
Mr. SHAW said the usual title of the chief magistrate of
Dublin was, "the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor," while
the words in the clause were simply, " mayor, aldermen, and
burgesses." In that case it appeared the Lord Mayor of Dublin
would be deprived of a title which he had always enjoyed.
The ATT 0 RNE Y. G E NE R A L said there was nothing in
the clause to interfere with the title of the Lord Mayor.
Sir R. PEEL though it would be better, in order to remove
all doubt, that a clause should be inserted to enable the Lord
Mayor to retain the title.
Mr. O'C ON NE L L had no doubt if such a clause were pro-
posed it would be agreed to unanimously.
After some further observations, the clause was agreed to
without amendment. The sth clause was also agreed to.
On the 6th clause being read,
Mr. MARTIN thought the franchise should be placed on
the same footing in Ireland as in England and Scotland. He
did not see why in some boroughs a householder rated at Si.
should have a right to vote, when in the rest of the kingdom
none but 101. householders could vote. He thought some of
the words in the clause, particularly the words "value" and
"occupy," were indefinite.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said it would be better to make use
of the same terms as those inserted in the English Municipal
Bill. The words he thought were uncertain and vague.
Mr. WOULFE considered the terms sufficiently definite.
After some further discussion, the clause was agreed to; as
were also clauses 7, 8;9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16.
Clause 17 was postponed.
Clauses 18, 19, 20. 21, 22, 23, and 24, were agreed to.
Clauses 25 to 28 inclusive were agreed to without observa-
tion.

On clause 29 being put, which provides for the mode in
which elections shall be held, &c., Mr. SHAW objected to
this clause, inasmuch as respected the signing of the voting
papers. It was required that the Christian and surname of
the party for whom he voted should be given by the burgess
voting. There was a remarkable instance of omission in
this Bill, as compared with Sergeant Perrin's Act ; because
the latter added the words "in his own handwriting." He
wished to insert these words.

Mr. Sergeant WOULFE said the constitutional practice
had not been to deprive persons who could not write of their
elective franchise. The constitutional practice had not been
to require that persons voting should give the names of the
parties for whom they voted in writing.
After a few words from Mr. G 0 ULB URN, who supported
the view taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Dublin (Mr. Shaw),
Mr. O'CONNELL observed that a man who might be
able to read might not be able to write.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the decided ob-
jection to the additional words proposed was this, that they
would always have a great difficulty in discovering who were
able to write and who were not able to write. Suppose the,
case of a person whose hand was guided, the signature or de-
scription would be his, though not, strictly speaking, written
by him. Again, in the instance of a person who had lost an
arm in the service of his country, was he to be excluded from the
right of voting ?
Clauses 30 to 44, inclusive, were agreed to.
On clause 45 being put, which provides that every burgess
elected to the office of councillor, and every councillor elected
to the office of mayor or alderman, shall accept the office, or
pay a fine to the borough fund of 100/.,
Mr. SHAW objected to the amount of penalty (as we un-
derstood.)
After a few words from Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Wyse, Mr.
Shaw, and Sir Edward Knatchbull, the clause was agreed to.
Clause 46 was agreed to.
Clauses 47 to 62, inclusive, were agreed to.
Clauses up to 95, inclusive, were agreed to.
On clause 96, the appointment of sheriffb' clause, being
proposed,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD moved an amendment, to the effect
that the Councils or corporate towns in Ireland should have
the absolute power of appointing their own sheiiffs, without
being subject to the veto of the Lord Lieutenent. The great
object of the Irish people, he observed, was to have an iden-
tity of legislation in this, as in every other point, with the
English people; and accordingly, his purpose in proposing
this amendment was to restore the clause which formed part
of the original Bill of 1835, and which was a counterpart of
that in the English Act. He could not at all understand why
the original Bill had been so materially changed in this re-
spect, nor ou what principle it was that the Irish people were

to be refused the privilege enjoyed by their English brethrers
of electing their corporate officers If the alteration were
made with a view of conciliating those who considered the
Irish people as " aliens in blood, aliens in religion, and aliens
iii language," the idea inns a most fallacious one. The alte-
ration 0,-.;ld not, indeed, be so important, if the Irish people
were always to leave such a Government as they were fortunate
enough to possess at i,tr,ent : but it was essential to avoid the
ado:ission of a principle which might give a power so great as
to future Governments, which might be hostile to the
liberties of the Irish people. He would. therefore, earnestly
call on Ministers, and on the friends of Ireland, not to regis-
ter so gross an insult on the Irish nation as would be conveyed
by this clause, which declared them incapable of selecting
their own corporate officers.
Colonel BUTLER seconded the amendment, and entirely
concurred in the sentiments of the Hon. Mamber for Dundalk.
Lord J. RUSSELL, while he gave the lion. Member
credit for the best motives in proposing this amendment. could
not at all admit its propriety, nor concur in the lion. Gentle-
man's opinion that justice to Ireland was involved in servilely
adopting for Ireland every detail of the English Act.—( Hear,
hear.) If such, indeed, were the lion. Member's opinion,
how did it happen that he had not insisted that in Ireland as
in England the Aldermen should be elected by the town Coon-
-61? How was it that the Hon. Member had not denounced
this deviation from the English Act as an injustice to Ireland?
For his ( Lord John Russell's) part, he considered the c h
prini-
ple so desirable a one, that had he to introduce the Englis
measure again, he should propose that the Sheriffs in Eng-
land should be elected in just the same way as the Sheriff in
Ireland would be under this clause. In the English Act a
deviation had been made from the Act in reference to Scot-,
land, as to the election of Magistrates, who were appointed in
Scotland absolutely by the Town Councils, while in England
the appointment was subject to the veto of Government, and
no objection had been made in England to this deviation, and
the Irish people had as little reason to complain of the deviation
now proposed from the English measure. In the appointment of
officers connected in so important a manner with the admini-
stration of justice as the sheriffs, it was most desirable
that the Crown should have some, at any rate negative, power.
There was little doubt but that, in most instances, the persons
nominated by the Town-councils would be approved by the
Lord-Lieutenant; but it was essential that there should be
vested in Government a check against the nomination of
the Councils of improper persons. The check which the
Government possessed in England on the appointment of
Magistrates had been found most beneficial in its effects.
Nothing could have been further from the intentions of the
Government in framing this clause than to imply any in-
sult to the Irish people. He should certainly abide by the
clause as it stood.
Mr. SHA W did not see that the Noble Lord had shown
any reason for the deviation made from the original Bill.
He thought that the Hon. Member for Dundalk had rea-
son to complain that this Bill had not been restored to
what it was originally. It should settle the matter either
one way or the other ; it should give the appointment of
sheriffs either to the Lord- Lieutenant or to the Town-councils.
He could not support the amendment if it were pressed to a
division ; but he certainly must say that it was a more
straightforward proposition than that of the Noble Lord (Lord
John Russell). Both the clause and the amendment were in
his opinion bad, but the balance, he thought, was in favour of
the amendment.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that the provision in the
Bill was the best that could be made on the subject. He
thought that the Town-council having to submit their choice
to the Lord. Lieutenant would take care to name proper per.-
sons. If the matter were entirely left to the Town-council
there would be a chance that they would name persons who
were not titer:testi fitted for the situation ; but knowing that
the Lord-Lieutenant had the power of setting them aside, they
would take care to name proper persons, and thus ensure ea'
tisfaction with the administration of justice. ,••
Mr. F. FRENCH said that if the clause stood alone be
would support the proposition of the Hon. Member for Dun-
dalk ; but after the perfectly satisfactory explanation of the
Noble Lord he hoped that his Hon. Friend would not press
his amendment to a division.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped that the Government
would take a lesson and show less anxiety to endeavour to
conciliate their opponents. They certainly could not bo
charged with doing so now so much as formerly ; but he was
afraid they were endeavouring to do so, on this subject. The
first Bill vested the election in the Town-Councils; the power
was transferred to the Crown at the suggestion of Hon. Mem-
bers opposite, and this very fact was made a ground for the re-
jection of the Bill elsewhere.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped his
Hon. Friend would not press his amendment to a division, and
more particularly after the recommendation of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shaw.)
Mr. SHAW begged, in explanation, to say that he had not
recommended, the -chin. Member for Dundalk to press hie
amendment.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL—The Hon. and Learned Gen•
tleman duly insinuated a recommendation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER attached
great importance to the clause then under discussion. The
great object was:to give to the country an assurance that offices
connected with the administration of justice should not depend
upon popular election. In everything connected with the ad-
ministration of the law the Crown was, or ought to be, the
source of all appointments, and should have in that respect fill
power and privilege. This clause was not meant to cast all
reflection or stigma upon the people of Ireland. It would be
most beneficial that the Crown should have this power, and in
no part of the empire was it more important than in Ireland.
It was most important and desirable that those who would be
called upon to administer the law should be unable to sat,
" This man is my constituent, and that man voted against
me."—( Hear, hear, hear.) Such a course would lead
to suspicion, which ought to be entirely banished from
the administration of justice. He did not think that
the nomination on the part of the Crown was a matter of
which the subject had a right to complain. The Crown must
certainly have a recommendation somewhere, and he wished
that those persons who gave the recommendations should be
responsible. They should be given by persons who were
known, recognised, and responsible for their acts. The clause
as it stood secured this responsibility, and certainly the norni•
nation when it took place was not that of a popular body, but
was subject to the selection of the Crown. This was nothing
new. It was at present the law of Ireland, as the Recorders
of many Corporations were popularly chosen, but they were
subject to the confirmation of the Lord-Lieutenant. True,
the control was wholly inoperative, because there was only one
person sent up to the Crown.
' Mr. WYSE hoped that his Hon. Friend would not press
his amendment.
After a few words from Mr. SCARLET; Mr. BoaTuvitctc,
and from Mr. S. CRAWFORD in reply,

The Committee divided— - -
For the amendment 5
Against it _ 65

Majority
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 97 to 108..
Clause 109, providing that presentments should be made 10
the Court of King's Bench instead of the Quarter Sessions,
was withdrawn at the suggestion of Mr. F. SHAW.
The remaining clauses, after some discussion, were agreed
to. Schedules A and B were also agreed to.
On schedule C being proposed, Mr. J. GRATTAN move
a
that the town of Wicklow be included in schedule C, and after
some conversation the motion was withdrawn.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, after what had taken place, 11S
would allow his motion relative to the town of Bangor to 13°
negatived without a division.
The remaining schedules and the preamble were tbsti
agree to.
Thed House resumed, and the report was ordered to be 0"
ceived on Wednesday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he would take that opfl°r.
tunity of stating that he would move that the Bill be read s
third time on Monday, the 10th of April.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve

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BIRTHS. T'On the 17th inst., at Grove-hill-terrace, Camberwell, Mrs'
Conway, of a daughter.
On the 17th inst., at Brighton, the lady of Sir R.D. King, nart.'
of a daughter.
On the 20th in Montagu-street, Portman-square, the lady of
FL Lindsay, Esq., of a son.

- -
MARRIED. „floor
On the 18th inst., at Dorking, John Gurney Hoare, EBcl-9 "0"f C.
S. Hoare, Esq., of Hampstead, to Caroline, eldest daughter
Barclay, Esq., M.P., of Bury Hill, Surrey.-
Esq 4
On the 18th inst., at Hayes, Middlesex, H. B. Robinson, ,0,5,
Hillingdon.heath, to Mary Ann, widow of the late Major G.
of Ale xander-square, Brompton. Clisrle4
On the 16th inst., at St. George's, Edinburgh, Captain
Kinnaird Johnstone, K.L.S., son of the late J. Johnstone, Va.
of Alva, to Elizabeth, only daughter of F. Gordon, Esq., of
cardine, Aberdeenshire. ht
On the 14th inst., the Rev. Alfred Hanbury, to Louisa,
trd
daughterLowestoffe. ftev•
On the 17th inst., Francis Rodd, Esq., eldest son of the hits
Dr. Rodd, of Trebartha Hall, Cornwall, to Mary, eldest dau g
of the Rev. J. S. Rashleigh, Rector of Wickham, Hants. /
On the 18th inst., at St. John's, Hackney, Thomas EA
Beuli! Olt
of Lower Clapton, to Amelia, only daughter of the late John
Esq., of-South Hackney

,0
of 14/Q,
London: Printed and Published by MUPDO ;
112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. Strand, in th
of Middlesex.—Tuesday, March 21, 1837.
•