The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVb..NING, JULY 7, 1863

of art, and they were still in possession of property worth
at least £300,000, without doing wrong to any one. He did
not suppose that any public body whatever, however care-
fully chosen, could act for ten years and escape the critics
of the House of Commons, who always understood every-
thing so much bettor thanthe persons Practically acquainted
with the subjects of their criticism--still, he thought no
reason had been shown for asking the house to confiscate—
for that was the effect of the motion—the funds of what
might properly be called a charitable corporation.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR, said the right hon. gentleman
wanted to know why the commission should be put down.
question
wnmen cou
ld
show cWhlyd
sHheoutlhdoiut gbhetktert
upre?o,r,e pertinent
duninleensts
the
h
show better reasons for its maintenance than he had heard
should vote for the motion of his hon. friend the mem-
ber for the Tower Hamlets.
Mr. T. BARING, as a commissioner both of 1851 and
1862, said he was not ashamed of what had been done on
either occasion, and believed their efforts had been greatly
for the benefit of the country. When they were charged
with misapplying public money, he begged to ask what
public money they had had. It was merely a sum received
in shillings and sixpences, the same as for seeing some pri-
vate exhibition ; and he denied the right to touch eithar the
money or the produce of it. (Hear, hear.) As for the
commissioners having done nothing for 15 years, that was
not their fault; and he thought the proposition to bring
their labours to an end by a summary resolution of the
house was most monstrous.

The house then divided. The numbers were—
For the resolution: 42
Against it
Majority against..
The resolution was therefore negatived.
CHINA.

Lord NAAS, in calling attention to the affairs of China, '
which he was induced to do so in consequence of the man-
ner in which the debate had been brought to an abrupt
close the other evening, said he wished to endeavour to
elicit some explanation from her Majesty's Government on
the state of our relations with that empire. It seemed to
him that since the treaty of Pekin, which was concluded in
October, 1860, all the old traditional policy of Great Britain
was thrown away, and that they were now entering upon a
new state of things. In days gone by we had acted in a
spirit of hostility to the Chinese authorities, and thereby
had encouraged the Taepings; but since the treaty of Pekin
the instructions of Earl Russell and of Sir F. Bruce were
explicit, that neutrality would be observed on the part of
the British between the Chinese authorities and the Tae-
pings, unless where force was necessary for the protection of
British subjects. Earl Russell expressed at the outset his
wish to maintain neutrality, the only armed interference
being a defence of our treaty rights, and the settlements
occupied by her Majesty's subjects; but he proceeded to
show how, step by step, that policy had been abandoned,
and instead of occupying a neutral position, we had been in-
terfering in every way in almost all the internal affaits of
China. He referred to the events of the last two years, com-
mencing with our interference in the 30 miles radius of
Shanghai, which had had the effect of involving that dis-
trict in serious troubles and miseries. The partisans of both
sides had suffered alike—each party beheading the other
with little mercy, and upon the excuse that they aided the
opposite side—the Imperialists being, in fact, as bad as the
Taepings, Ningpo and the country around, which was in
the hands of the insurgents, was afterwards seized upon by
Consul Harvey, with the consent of the French and Ameri-
can consuls, as a foreign settlement for the three nations.
Next came the accidental killing bythe insurgents of several
English in a salute that was fired. Explanations were given
which were at first deemed satisfactory, but afterwards was
sent in a kind of ultimatum; in which Captain Drew asked
three things—first, an ample apology; secondly, the remo-
val of all the guns, &-c., from the battery; and thirdly, that
means should be taken to prevent a repetition of the disas
ter. The insurgents assented to the whole of the proposi-
tions. It appeared that some way from Nangpo there were
some gunboats belonging to a pirate whom the Imperialists
hired to come up and at: ack Nangpo. Upon that Capt. Drew
sent word to the Taepings that it they fired a shot, even in
their defence, he would bombard the town. A shot was
fired, but it was not known by whom ; and upon that Capt,
Drew bombarded the town till two o'clock, when he went to
dinner. At 3 o'clock he landed his men, drove out the
rebels, and in the evening he handed the city over to the
Imperialist Government. That was the way in which our
officer conducted affairs in that country. He believed there
had been no attempt to establish the 30 mile radius around
Ningpo ; but, in February last, Capt. Drew accompanied a
force of a nondescript character to attack Shonhing, a walled
city, about 110 miles from Ningpo. It was called the
French contingent, and was commanded by a Frenchman
who had belonged to the civil service. It consisted of about
500 men, accompanied by Capt. Drew, and they took with
them boats, in which to bring away the plunder. The first
night was occupied in plundering an Imperial village, and
the next day they advanced to the attack of the town, Capt.
Drew accompanying them as a spectator, as he said, but in
reality acting as their commander, and advised the attack.
The result, however, was, that the force was ignominiously
beaten and driven back, and in that wretched skirmish the
French commander was killed, and the lieutenant in the
encounter was shot dead through the neck. It was impos-
sible to say that Captain Drew was not in actual command
of this force, for there was his own authority that he
was, and moreover that he borrowed eighteen howitzers
from General Staveley for the purpose of the expedi-
tion. As for Lieutenant Singney, who was killed, having
been present only as a volunteer, he reminded the house
that that gallant officer was there under the command of his
own captain, and he asserted that he was acting as much
in the discharge of his public duties as if he had been fight-
ing on board his own ship. The noble lord then proceeded
to animadvert upon the appointment of the foreign inspec-
tors of customs at eight ports, and to point out that the
authority which they exercised was sure to bring them in
collision with the local legitimate authorities. In the next
place, he pointed out that the force which had been organised
last year in this country under the command of Capt. S.
Osborn, could have been despatched to China for no other
object than the restoration of the Imperial authority ; at the
same time, that there was no evidence whatever that the
Imperial authority had been given for raising the force. It
was quite clear that one of the first things the force would
attempt would be the capture of Nankin, and the highest and
most reliable authorities distinctly were of opinion that no
measure could be more impolitic or more unlikely to lead to
the restoration of order than dispossessing the Taepings of
Nankin. He would now come to another force, which was
entirely separate from the Customs and from Capt. Sherard
Osbotn's, and this was the force called the Anglo-American
Contingent. In the year 1860 a Mr. Ward, of whose nation-
ality there was some doubt, arrived in Shanghai. It was be-
lieved that Mr. Ward had formed part of Gen. Walker's fili-
bustering expedition; but, however this might be, as soon
as he arrived in Shanghai he proposed to organise a foreign
legion, which was to consist of all sorts of men, negroes,
Manillas, &c. The formation of a legion of this kind was
one of the worst things which could happen, in consequence
of the depredations that as ere being committed in the East-
ern seas, where adventurers and scoundrels of all nations
assembled for the purpose of rapine. This foreign legion
had, after some time, been disbanded, and Mr. Bruce wrote
expressing great satisfaction at the event. Colonel Ward
then turned his attention to drilling the Chinese, and
proved successful to some extent; but he fell when leading
an attack against a town in China. The noble lard then
referred to the successors of Colonel Ward, and submitted
that it was a most dangerous principle to have British offi •
cers induced to give up their commissions and become the
officials of a foreign power. Capt. Sherard Osborn would
probably receive as much pay in his new capacity as the
general commanding the British contingent in China. He
believed it would be no longer possible to set up the plea on
behalf of these men that they were in the pay of the Empe-
ror of China. This force of Capt. Osborn's would be always
regarded by the rebels as a British force. Their uniform
would be very like that of the British nevy, and the Chinese
people would look upon them as a British force. It was
only necessary to refer to a statement of Prince Kung, the
Prime Minister of China, to show in what light the Impe-
rial Government viewed the several foreign armed forces
which were being organised to aid the Imperial forces. He
thought he had now shown that, while her Majesty's Go-
vernment had laid down the doctrine of strict neutrality in
1860, that doctrine had been entirely departed from. With
regard to arms, it was found that the contending parties
got well supplied, especially the Imperialists, and he was
afraid the Americans had largely entered into that trade.
In general terms he condemned the system of interference
adopted in China, a policy which, in parallel instances, had
almost invariably done more damage to the interfering state
than to the parties it operated against. If China was to
be governed upon Chinese principles, it must "oe governed
by Chinamen ; but if it was to be governed virtually by
European interference, it must be upon European principles,
or that interference must be utterly ineffectual. The noble
lord then quoted from Sir F. Bruce and Dr. Lake, a eminent
Chinese scholar, in support of his views, and concluded by
saying that our continued interference must only prevent
the natural settlement of the congict, and during a long
series of years crimes would be constantly committed in
our name that could not but bring a blush upon the face of
every Englishman who heard of them. The truth was,
that all the richest provinces of China, those from whence
our greatest supplies of tea and silk were derived, had been
in the hands of the rebels, as they were called, since 1854,
and the opinion of the commercial classes universally was,
that if the objectionable interference of Europeans were not
withdrawn, those " rebels" would very soon shut up their
ports and rivers, and stop our trade there altogether.
(Hear.) They never had adopted that course yet, but
nothing was more natural than that they should do so.
The noble lord then alluded to the rapid advances made by
Russia in forwarding its territorial boundary line to the
Amcor river, and to within three days' sail of Shanghai.
The fact that the telegraph would probably soon be laid
down, so as to bring China and St. Petersburg within
seven days of each other, showed the interest taken in the
trade with that country. France, however, was in a diffe-
rent position, and her commercial interest in the country
was very small indeed. The objects of the French were
purely ecclesiastical, and were well defined. For centuries
the French Church had taken a most active interest in

Chinese missions, and he could not see how, with holier
and higher objects than we had, we could complain, and
say that they should not do that in the interests of reh•

gion which we did in the interests of trade. (Hear, hear )
He fully recognise° the difficulty of receding from the policy
the English Government had entered on in China. He ad-
mitted that it could not be abandoned at a moment's notice;
but, remembering that the longer it was continued the more
difficult it should be to recede, he recommended as the only
practical course that notice should be given to the Chinese
authorities that at the end of three or four years they should
themselves be prepared to govern their country without
assistance. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. VERNEY suggested that such notice was already
given by the fact that the order in cotmcil extended over
only two years, and that the sole object of British interfer-
ence was to teach the Chinese Government how to rule.
Peace and tranquillity in the empire was of far more im-
portance to British interests than any influence which the
English Government could exercise in the country. He was
of opinion that our interference in China had resulted in the
protection of the life and property of British subjects, and
in Shanghai the latter had increased sixfold in value.

Mr. LAYARD said he felt no misgivings with regard to
the policy of her Majesty's Government in China. Looking
at the small number of hon. members then present, and re-
collecting how few were present on a former occasion, he
was at a loss to understand how China could be considered
an important question in that house. If our policy in China
was so bad as it had been described by the noble lord the
Government were deserving of the severest censure, and he
was surprised the noble lord had not concluded with a mo-
tion condemnatory of their conduct. The policy of her
Majesty's Government had been to treat China as a civilized
country, and not like Russia, to consider her as a barbarous
empire; and it was therefore wrong to make her Majesty's
Government answerable for the misgoings of France and
Russia, During the last two or three years our policy in
China had changed. Not that the home Government had
changed in their views, but circumstances had greatly
altered, so as to render a change necessary. For-
merly we dealt with the local authorities, but now we had
access to the Central Government. Since the Treaty of
Tientsin, which was ratified at Pekin, we had had a Minis-
ter at the latter pace, and the result had justified the im-
portance of having a Minister there; for, instead of desul-
tory negotiations with subordinates, who often deceived the
Chinese Government, we had direct communication with
the latter, and instead of exchange of short notes passed
between the respective authorities, and the Chinese were be-
ginning to see the necessity of keeping their treaty obliga-
tions. We had had two objects in view : first, to strengthen
the Chinese Government, as the best means of restoring
tranquillity there ; and, secondly, the necessity of their ob-
serving treaty obligation with all nations ; to accomplish
which it had been necessary for us to support a liberal party
in that country, Sir F. Bruce had had great difficulties to
contend with in China, and more especially from those who
ought to have supported her Majesty's Government in that
country. Sir F. Bruce had sketched out a policy of conci-
liation, and in that her Majesty's Government entirely con-
curred. No doubt many things in connection with China
were open to criticism ; but on the whole our policy had
been a just one, and had been most consistent with the in-
terests of this country and China. The real cause of our
difficulties in China did not arise from the Tartar element,
which had been the cause of that chronic anarchy that had
existed so long in that country. Sir F. Bruce, in the first
instance, had to disabuse the Chinese mind of the prejudice
they entertained that we dealt with them in too high-minded
a manner, and that we had a desire to cheat them. He first
obtained a concession from the Chinese for the opening of
the carrying trade between the north and south of China,
and then the opening of the Yang-tse-Kiang. Those two
concessions had been obtained without going to war, at an
expense of perhaps a million of money, and so far from our
being at war with China, we were never so far from it as at
that moment, and all that we were now doing was to assist
them in establishing a system of good government. They
defended the treaty ports, because of the enormous mars
of British property that was concentrated there. If the
Taepings got hold of them, the property would very soon
bo destroyed. Captain Sherard Osborn and his brother
officers were no doubt still subjects of the British Crown;
but, inasmuch as they were under the command of the
Chinese Government, they were not responsible to the Eng-
lish
of h
Government. t e
creation B
ofut on the other hand, what had been the
effect
this rew force ? Why, it enabled
them rap.dly to reduce the number of British troops em-
ployed in China. In 1860 there were 21,000 British troops
in China ; now there were little more than 4,000. The 30
miles radius round Shanghai was maintained entirely upon
the advice of military men, and as a defensive precaution.
It was the universal opinion of all persons connected with
China, whether as agents of our Government, as merchants,
or missionaries, that the Taepings were plunderers, and
nothing else. They were asked, why not allow the Taepings
to take possession of the ports, as they would not injure our
trade ? but that was not the opinion of the merchants, and
they showed that such was their opinion when Shanghai was
threatened by the Taepings. The fleet that had been orga-
nised under the command of Capt, Osborn was intended to
put down piracy, and piracy alone. By the treaty the Chinese
Government pledged themselves to put down piracy, and if
they did not do it the English authorities were allowed to
do it ; indeed, the whole object of maintaining so large a
fleet in the Chinese seas was for the suppression of piracy.
With respect to the appointment of foreigners as superin-
tendents of customs at the treaty ports, it was true that that
arrangement led to a great outcry; but that was very natu-
ral, because, up to then, foreign merchants were in the
habit of evading the payment of customs duties altogether.
It was, however, equally a fact that the customs revenue of
China had since their appointment increased enormously,
and they had the testimony of some of the leading merchants
to the great bocn conferred upon British trade by the esta-
blishment of a well-defined system of custom-house regu-
lations. The next difficulty was that of dealing with Bri-
tish subjects in China. It was these parties who were con-
stantly endeavouring to thwart the policy of Sir F. Bruce, and
it was they who sent letters and requests to hon. members
to get up opposition to her Majesty's Government in that
house. It was hardly possible for Sir F. Bruce to convince
the Chinese that this country was desirous of acting in good
faith when the British subjects resident there committed
acts in direct violation of the treaty. (Hear, hear.) These
parties at one time took possession of land, and refused to
give it up ; at another they committed acts of smuggling,
and called on her Majesty's Government to support them in
violation of the treaty. He believed he had shown that the
policy of the Government was a just and wise policy;
that it was a policy tending to peace, and not war ; and that
the prospect of a war with China was never more remote
than at present. What was it that hen, members opposite
desired to see done ? Did they want to have the officers of
customs withdrawn, and that no English officers should
be employed in disciplining the Chinese troops ? The
noble lord spoke of Sir F. Bruce as becoming Prime
Minister in China ; but that was not a correct statement
of the facts. Sir F. Bruce had colleagues at Pekin, and he
had the sanction and concurrence of the French and Ame-
rican Ministers. The noble lord had referred to Dr. Legge.
He had great respect for Dr. Legge as a literary man; and
he could only say, that by the system they were now pur-
suing they were getting rid of the class of " braves" alluded
to; by Dr. Legge. So far from there being s rebellion in China
and any necessity for sending out 50,000 men to suppress
it, they were actually reducing the force in China. His
own conviction was that the rebellion Was gradually break-
ing up, and that one great step towards its entire suppres-
sio was that of having the Chinese troops officered by
Englishmen. There was no analogy between their position
in India and their position in China. They had from a small
beginning acquired the entire possession of India, whereas
they did not want anything in China but to strengthen
the rule of the Chinese Government, and enable them to put
down disorder. The noble lord, like the hon. and gallant
member for Aberdeen, fell into the mistake that the
country which had been
,overrun by the Taepings was actu-
ally in their possession. This was not the fact. When they
took the spoils they departed to another part of the country,
and the only city which appeared to be permanently pos-
sessed by them was Nankin ; and even this was represented
as a " deserted city," for no attempt was made to revive
trade there. He believed that when Nankin was taken the
rebellion would die out. With regard to the opinion of Lord
Russell, upon which so much stress was laid, it was neces-
sary to remark that at the time the speech was made the
rebellion was at its height, and the Chinese troops were en-
tirely unorganised. Now, however, circumstances had
wholly changed, and it was the opinion of Sir F. Bruce that
the rebellion would fall with the fall of Nankin. (Hear,
hear.) He might be over-sanguine, but he thought he fore •
saw a time of restored peace and tranquility, when the people
would again return to the pursuits of agriculture and in-
dustry, when the canals would be covered with boats, when
new markets would be open to British trade, and when it
would be said that the policy of her Majesty's Government
had contributed to the general interests of humanity, as
well as the particular interests of this country. (Cheers.)
Mr. F. FITZGERALD said the house had heard two
long and instructive speeches that evening upon China, and
he thought he might claim for his noble friend that he had
presented the entire question to them with great force and
lucidity. (Hear, hear.) The speech of the hon gentleman
must have been also interesting, and it was a remarkable
instance to show how a man might make a very good speech
without replying to one of the points which had been urged
against a particular course of policy. The hon. member
then referred to the language of Consul Meadows and other
English officials in China,and contended that it was not the
language of neutrality, but one highly inimical to the Tae-
pings• The right hon. gentleman then referred to the rapid
increase of Russian influence in the China seas and sur-
rounding territory, and condemned the policy of her Ma-
jesty's Government throughout, as hurtful both to our com-
mercial and political standing in that country.
Lord PAL NIERSTON said he had listened with great
attention to the very long and able speech of the noble lord
who began the discussion, but he was still at a loss to dis-
cover the source of the censure which the noble lord had
stated he was prepared to pass upon her Majesty's Govern-
ment. (Hear.) He confessed it seemed to him something
new to hear from that side of the house enthusiastic praise
of the rebels in China ; to be told that rebellion was a sacred
institution, and that it was an interference contrary to our
duty as a nation to support the Imperial dynasty. (Hear.)
In the case of Italy, would the noble lord and the right hon.
gentleman be prepared to show the same sympathy to those
who had cast off their allegiance as they did for the Tao-
Pings ? (Hear.) He apprehended not, but that they had
one policy for one country and another for the other, The

main question was, had the policy of her Majesty's Govern-
ment been founded in good faith, and for the benefit of the
country ? (Hear, hear.) A few years ago we had been in
constant hostility with the Chinese Government, but now
the whole state of things had been altered, end we were on
the most friendly terms with the Government of China. We
had access to the Supreme Government, which we had always
before been debarred from by the local and provincial au-
thorities, and the noble lord had himself quoted returns
showing the immense increase in our commerce with China
during the last three or four years. Let the house compare
the trade with what it had been when it was merely a branch
of the East India Company's business, and with what it
would be when the whole resources of the country had been
opened up. It would then seem that a great part of what
the noble lord intended for censure was, in fact, praise of
her Majesty's Government. His complaint was that the
Government were teaching the Chinese the system of go-
vernment as practised in Europe, and enabling them to
collect their revenue and increase it on fair and honourable
principles, after the manner of European nations, Well, he
would admit the charge ; and, in fact, he would take it as
the great merit of her Majesty's Government; and it was
clear that the noble lord, having come to curse, had been
obliged to remain to bless them. (Hear, and a laugh.) The
policy of China had mush altered of late with regard to
English and foreign nations, and he thought it would be
folly to interfere to upset the present course of proceeding.
The noble viscount then defended the proceedings of the
Government in seeking to preserve the trade of Ningpo un-
interrupted, and said it was nothing very uncommon for
one friendly State to lend officers and men to another to
instruct both soldiers and sailors in the art of protecting
their own territory. The noble lord said Captain Sherard
Osborn had been needlessly sent to China to endeavour to
destroy the pirates, because anybody could destroy pirates.
But they must first catch the pirates, and that was just
what Capt. Osborn had gone to do. With regard to the
encroachments of Russia and France upon China, the noble
lord (Lord Naas) said that there would be great danger of
a collision if we remained there, SO his advice had been that
we should quit the spot. He could not admit that policy.
It was true that Russia had made encroachments on the
northern provinces of China, and that France was a Power
which had a great tendency to extend itself—(laughter)—
but France and Russia and England were perfectly agreed
at present in their policy with regard to China, and were
in no danger of coming into collision, (Hear.) The Go-
vernment of China, too, was friendly, instead of being hos-
tile, and he had not the least doubt that if the internal dis-
turbances could be suppressed and tranquillity restored to
the interior of the empire, we should find in our commer-
cial intercourse with China a source of national wealth and
national prosperity which was now but little anticipated.
lie trusted that in a few years we should see the resnit of
the faithful, straightforward, and friendly policy which
we had adopted towards the empire of China, and he
was convinced that if the house would wait for its ex-
perience, they would see that, co far from deserving
censure, it entitled the Government to praise, and was emi-
nently advantageous to the interests of the country.
(Cheers.)
Mr. LIDDELL contended that the noble lord had avoided
the whole question at issue, and reiterated that it was our
policy in China which had destroyed the authority of its
Government.

Colonel SYKES pronounced the so-called Tartar Govern-
ment a myth, and asserted that the authority of Prince
Kung was not obeyed one hundred miles beyond the walls
of Pekin. He denied that we could rely on the Imperial
Government for the regeneration of China, and he gave in-
stances to show that its civilisation was of a very question-
able character. Cruelties had been committed on bothsides.
It had been said there was no Government to treat with in
dealing with the Taepings. Sir G. Bonham, however,
pledged himself to treat with them on behalf of the British
Government, but the latter would not let him keep faith
with the Taeping chiefs. He feared our policy was one of
suppression, and misconceptions were the result.
Mr. GREGSON supported the policy pursued by the
Government in China, observing that we had nover been in
a happier state with China than at present. The greatest
harmony prevailed, and our arrangements had given general
satisfaction in that country.
After some observations from Mr. WIIITESIDE, in which
he charged the Government with assuming the legitimate
functions of the Chinese Government in China,
The discussion came to a close, and the house having
gone into committee of supply pro forma, immediately re-
sumed.