The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-20 00:00:00

expressed an opinion that it would be impossible to main-
tain two establishments in Ireland, and that the time
would come when it would be necessary, as a matter of
justice, to make provision for the Catholic priesthood.
He thought the Liberal party should no longer delay to
bring the question forward, and that they should also urge
the Government to proceed with the measures which were
popular on that side of the House. It appeared to him that
the noble lord at the head of the Government looked rather
for support to honourable members on the cross benches on
the opposite side than to the Liberal party. The party
opposite were strengthening their ranks, and it was not
improbable that they would soon be crossing sides—(a
laugh)—and all he could say was that he would do his best
to bring about a change in the temporalities of the Irish
Church.

Sir J. TRELAWNY seconded the motion.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR rose to move an amendment to the
following effect :—" That an humble address be presented
to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be pleased
to appoint a Royal commission to inquire into the territo-
rial arrangements of existing benefices, whether consisting
of single parishes or unions of parishes ; the extent and
contiguity of such parishes, the means of internal commu-
nication, the provision for the cure of souls, the amount of
population, and the number of Protestants in each bene-
fice." The hon. gentleman said he had taken the terms of
his motion from a remarkable pamphlet published by
Archdeacon Stopford, an eminent dignitary of the Irish
Church, and he thought his amendment was better calcu-
lated to cure the admitted abuses in the temporali-
ties of the Irish Church than the remedy pro-
posed by the honourable member for Swansea.
Reform was demanded on gord grounds, because there
were clergymen who did no work at all and were paid, while
other clergymen did a great deal of work without any pay.
The details even of the Connaught Endowment Society
showed there were many churches wanting assistance,
and a surplus could not be spoken of until the resources
of the Church were inquired into. A select committee
was not the most suitable to inquire into these things,
but a Royal commission; but, in order that the meetings
of the latter might be satisfactory, care must be taken of
the terms of reference. The commission of 1830, ap-
pointed on the motion of the Duke of Wellington, was
useless in a great measure, owing to the terms in which the
subject was referred to it. A commission was most fitting,
as the members of it could visit the parishes and examine
them on the maps, and redistribute the incomes according
to the wants of each. The appropriation principle having
been abandoned by Lord John Russell would not, he hoped,
be again attempted. This commission would be prepared to
report this year, so that a bill could be brought in next ses-
sion which would Fettle for ever the Irish Church. (Oh,
oh.) The hon. member concluded by moving his amend-
ment.

Mr. NE WDEGATE seconded it.
Mr. WHITESIDE opposed the motion of the hon. mem-
ber for Swansea, as well as all the other motions on the
paper. He entered into an inquiry of the policy of the
school of politicians to whom the hon. member belonged to-
wards the Established Church. They had endeavoured to
gain a character by attacking bit by bit the English Esta-
blished Church, and they now took the bolder course of
attacking that branch of the United Church in Ireland.
Referring to the proposition of a royal commission, the right
hon. gentleman said he found from inquiry that of late
years the sum of £823,171 had been expended in unprofit-
able royal commissions. He ridiculed the idea of an ex •
Secretary to the Admiralty attempting Church reform, and
censured the conduct of the Liberal party towards the
Church. The hon. member for Swansea had referred to the
lamentable state of Ireland, and he proposed as a panacea
for all those evils, the banishing from that country of one
branch of the Christian Church. (No.) The question had
not been brought forward or suggested by the Roman Ca-
tholic members, and he regretted there were not measures
of a more practical character before them on which to en.
gage their attention. So important a question as that under
the consideration of the house was not within the pro-
vince of a private member, and it ought not to be left to
him to unsettle the fundamental basis of the Church. He
believed the Church of Ireland ought to be maintained, be-
cause it supported the pure Catholic faith that was in e ist •
ence there centuries before the English set foot in Ireland,
and he asserted that the present bishops of that Church
were the descendants of the earliest teachers of the pure
faith in Ireland. He traced the history of the church dur-
ing the time of Henry VIII., Elizabeth, and James, and
said that the State connected itself with the English Church,
which in all times had been true to the monarch, faithful to
the principles of the constitution, and had always stood by
the wall-regulated liberties of the country. The settlement
of the Church in Ireland had been productive of benefit.
It had been asked what success had attended the settlement
in Ulster. To that he would answer that the country was
controlled by a foreign power, by which he meant the Pa-
pacy; and the object of that power was to root out the Esta-
blished Church and to extirpate the English name, religion,
and race, in order to have a platform for carrying out its
designs. What harm did the Established Church do to
anybody ? Had any petitions been sent to that house from
the Irish Dissenters in support of the hon. member's pro-
position ? Not one. The Irish Dissenters were upon too
friendly terms with their brethren of the Established Church
to wish for any change. If the Established Church were
swept away the Church of Scotland would go down, the
Baptists would go down, the Wesleyans would go down,
and as for the Quakers, they would be devoured in a mo-
ment. (Laughter.) The hon, and learned gentleman then
enumerated the churches that were built and enlarged in
Ireland since the union, and those that were built and en-
larged since the appointment of the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners, and stated that the only five places where the po-
pulation had increased during the last 10 years were the
most Protestant places in Ireland ; but where the popular

tion bad most diminished the Roman Catholics were most
numerous. If they destroyed the parochial system of the
Established Church in Ireland, there would be nothing to
oppose the most wonderful organisation in the world—the
Church of Rome. A handful of fanatics running through
the country would not be a match for a Church that was not
only powerful in Ireland, but exercising a mighty influence
throughout the world. It would have been impossible to have
secured the Union had not the Legislature pledged itself to
the maintenance of the Protestant Church; and it was not
becoming in English members now to seek to get rid of that
pledge. There had been returns moved for in that house
with reference to Ireland, with the avowed object of show-
ing that the number of members in the Church of England
had decreased ; those returns were untrustworthy, for up
to 1840 the enumerators, being paid by the numbers they re-

turned, made their lists as large as possible ; and in the
later returns, the Dissentere, who were formerly included
in the lists of the Church of England, were given in sepa-

rate columns. Upon the history of the country—the his.

tory of the Church—the state of Ireland—the condition of
the Church, never so prosperous—he rested his defence of
the Established Church of Ireland ; but, above all, it was
to be defended, because of its connection with the Refor-
mation, (Cheers.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE then moved the adjournment of the
debate.

Mr. DILLWYN hoped that if the debate was adjourned
the Government would give up a night for so important a
question.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government could not do
that; but he had no doubt the hon. member would find no
difficulty in fixing a night for the purpose. (Ironical cheers
and laughter from the Opposition benches.)

Mr. MONSELL would recommend his hon. friend the
member for Liskeard (Mr. B. Osborne) to introduce the
question on the day for supply. _

Mr. B. OSBORNE said he had no other course, and con-
sequently he begged to give notice that on the first night for
going into committee of supply, which would be Thursday,

June 28, he would move a resolution with regard to the
Irish Church. (Cheers )
MR. REECE AND THE QUEEN'S WESTMINSTER

RIFLES.
Sir IL CLIFTON gave notice that he would postpone
his motion for an address for copy of the correspondence in

,he War•office relative to the dismissal of Mr. Reece from

the Queen's Westminster Rifles.

CIVIL BILL .JOURTS (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir R. PEEL obtained leave to introduce a bill to amend
the procedure in the civil bill courts of Ireland, and the bill
was subsequently read a first tim9.

AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE TREATY.
On the motion of Lord PALMERSTON, leave was
given to introduce a bill to carry into effect an additional
article to the treaty of the 7th day of April, 1862, between
her Majesty and the United States of America, for the sup-
pression of the African slave trade.

POOR REMOVAL (No. 3).
On the motion of Mr. VILLIERS, leave was given to
introduce a bill for the further amendment of the law relat-
ing to the removal of poor persons, natives of Ireland, from
England.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
The District Parochial Churches (Ireland) Bill and the
Harwich Harbour Bill were read a second time ; and the
Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act Continuance Bill was read
a third time and passed.
The house then adjourned at five minutes to one.

Losr AND SAVED. By the Hon. Mrs. Norton.
3 vols.—" In the pages of ' Lost and Saved,' (says
the Morning Post), the reader will find the rare poetic
charm, the graceful and unexaggerated pathos, the keen
artistic love of nature, the unerring good taste, and the
true womanly tenderness which made him linger over the
pages of ' Stuart of Dunleath.' But beyond all these things
there are in ' Lost and Saved' evidences of strong purpose
and proofs of matured and consummate ability which place
it in a far different category, In this remarkable work
Mrs. Norton brings the powers of her mind to the enforce-
ment and the illustration of home truths which ought to be
startling, as they are undeniable, which society does not
deny and will not redress, but which are dragged by a
dauntless heart and a powerful hand from behind the rose-
coloured veil of expediency into the light of truth. There
is no human element wanting to the interest and pathos of
this fine work."

- Full benefit of reduced duty obtained by purl
chasing Horniman's pure Tea; very choice at 3s 4d. and
4s. "High Standard "at 4s. 4d. (formerly 4s. Bd.), is the
strongest and most delicious imported. Agents in every
town supply it in packets.