The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-05 00:00:00

not to assent to committees not, in their opinion, impartially
constituted. The Government ought to have opposed the
appoin meat of the committee at the time.
Mr. HENNESSY rose to order.
Mr. BRIGHT said this discussion was ha f Welsh and
half I:ish. (Laughter.) He had often he %1,! ;t alleged in
that house that committees were not imp %rual, and did not
consider the language unparliamentary.
Lord J. MANNERS appealed to the Speaker for his
opinion.
The SPEAKER decided that the discussion must then
end, as it was contrary to the rules of the house. It was
competent in the right hon. gentleman to state it as his
opinion, that a committee was not impartially constituted
if he thought so.
The subject then dropped.
VOLUNTEERS BILL.
On the motion for going into committee,
Mr. BAGWELL moved that, in the opinion of this house
it is impolitic any longer to exclude Ireland from the ope-
ration of the volunteer system, and unjust, should such
exclusion continue, to tax Ireland for the support of Eng-
lish volunteers.

The Marquis of HARTINGTON opposed the motion,
but in doing so did not wish, to cast any doubt upon the
loyalty of the people of Ireland.
Lord PALMERSTON spoke highly of the loyalty of the
Irish people. Their unfortunate pugnacity and the
diversity of religious opinions that prevailed. rendered it
impolitic that a civil armed force should be created in that
country.
After a few words from several hon. members,
The house divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it o
Majority
The motion was consequently —lll
lost.
The house than went into committee.
Clauses 1 to 6 inclusive were agreed to.
On clause 7,
Mr. H. LE WIS said it was the opinion of many volun
teers that this clause would not work well ; and he there-
fore proposed to substitute a clause which would render it
more easy for the volunteer to obtain his discharge, and
would provide a court of inquiry in the event of any dispute. i
Col. SYKES defended the clause as it stood, observing
that the commanding officer was required to give every
volunteer his discharge who claimed to be struck out of the
muster-roll of the corps.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said he could not sae
any objection to the clause in its present form. There was
no intention of placing any obstacle in the way of a volun-
teer leaving his corps upon giving notice. He understood
the hon. member to say that the volunteers considered them-
selves aggrieved by the clause; but the first part of the
clause gave volunteers the right of discharge—a -right
which the commanding officer was bound to recognise.
Mr. H. LEWIS was not quite satisfied with the expla-
nation of the noble lord. As .he understood the clause,
there was nothing which obliged the commanding officer to
give a volunteer his discharge.
Sir 3, SHELLEY was rather surprised to hear that the
volunteers were dissatisfied with the clause, and that no
notice of an amendment had been given, With regard to a
court of inquiry, it would be hardly proper to refer a dis-
pute to a tribunal before which they could not compel the
attendance of volunteers, their being no control over volun-
teers except upon parade.
Major KNOX said, if the commanding officer had no
power of retaining a volunteer upon the roll, why not leave
out the latter part of the clause?
Mr. HEADLAM said the clause declared that the volun-
teers were entitled to their discharge ; but in certain cases
some question might arise or delay take place, and it was
chiefly for the benefit of the volunteers that the clause was
framed in its present shape.
Mr. HENLEY called attention to the wording of the
clause, and suggested that the words "or any other ac,-
count" were rather vague ; and, for his own part, if an ap-
peal should come before him, be would hardly be able to see
his way to a decision. He thought the meaning of the
clause should be more clearly expressed.
Mr. H. LEWIS, in deference to the general opinion of
the committee, withdrew his motion, and the clause in its
original form was agreed to, as was also clause 8.
On clause 9,
Colonel W. PATTEN suggested an improvement in the
clause, for the purpose of preventing any jealousies between
the officers of volunteer corps and the militia whenever the
two forces were employed together, as he hoped they often
would be. (Hear.) In order to insure perfect co-operation
between the two forces, he would move that the words "or
militia" be inserted ; so that when they were both employed
together,' in reviews or active service, the senior officer
should always command,
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the clause did not
make any difference in the existing law; the object of it
was to enable the Queen to appoint a general or field officer
to command the volunteers, either in active service or at
reviews.
Colonel KNOX said that many of the officers command-
ing the volunteers were men who had attained distinction
in the regular army, and he should be sorry to see them
placed in a false position. He wished to know whether it
was intended that under no circumstances a volunteer
officer should ever command.
Colonel SYKES observed that if it was intended to
give militia and volunteer officers their relative ranks
as in the army, the words suggested by the hon. and
gallant member opposite would have the effect of giving
precedence to the militia officers over the volunteers.
Col. W. PATTEN said his object was simply to prevent
confusion in the field if the two forces should be engaged
together.

Mr. HEADLAM did not interpret the clause in the same
light as the hon. and gallant member; The object-of it
was only to empower her Majesty to appoint a field officer
of the army, but it did not interfere in any way with the
officers among themselves.
Col. W. PATTEN expressed himself satisfied, and with-
drew the amendment.
Sir J. SHELLEY proposed to have the words "lieuten-
ant-colonel and colonel" added, but the hon. member not
pressing it, the clause as it originally stood was agreed to.
Oa clause 10,
Mr. BATHURST expressed his opinion that if the Go-
vernment assistance to volunteers was made to depend on
attendance at battalion drill, it would operate very injuri-
ously as regarded corps living at great distances apart. He
thought some provision should be made in the case of corps
at the distance of 10 or 20 miles asunder.
Mr. W. FORSTER said the suggestion of the hon. gen-
tleman was very important, and he thought it would be ex-
tremely prejudicial to the administration of the volunteers
if the corps were to be considered as separate corps.
Mr. HUMBERSTON said it would be impracticable in
many cases to bring scattered corps together for battalion
drill, and he begged to suggest for the consideration of the
noble lord the expediency of substituting additional drills
for battalion drill, in order to meet the case of scattered
corps who could not possibly attend for battalion drill.
Colonel NORTH saw no reason fcr altering the clause.
It was a matter for the discretion of the inspector whether
he would inspect the corps separately or in battalion.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said the object was to
make the inspection as convenient as possible to the corps,
and he thought it would be better to leave the matter to the
disCretion of the inspeetor.
The clause was then agreed to in its original form.
On clause 11,
The Marquis of HARTINGTON moved the following
addition : " The draft of any scheme to be from time to
time submitted to her Majesty in council for approval tin-
der the present section, shall be laid before both houses of
Parliament one month at least before such scheme receives
the approval of her Majesty in council." The noble lord
als o read the draft of the new standard of efficiency for
volunteer recruits, and the drills and other duties they will
be required to perform.
Mr. FORSTER admitted that the assistance granted by
the Government to the volunteers was very liberal, but he
simply rose to call the attention of the noble lord to the
position of some of the scattered corps in the country, who
were perfectly willing to attend any number of drills in
their respective localities, but who could not possibly
assemble at a distance for battalion drill. He hoped some-
thing might be done to meet this difficulty.
Lord ELCHO said he was very glad that he hon. mem-
ber for Bradford had brought the subject before the com-
mittee. Having had the honour to serve upon the volun-
teer commission, he might say it was proposed by the
commission that 4s. per head should be allowed for pay-
ing the expense of bringing detached companies toge-
ther for battalion drill, and that they should meet three
times a year. He believed that the Government had in the
main partially adopted that suggestion, and that the ad-
ministrative companies would have to meet three times a
year for battalion drill; but at the same time he saw that it
was laid down in the proposed order of council, that in case
of any corps not being able to assemble three times within
thealte tesei_3lve months, the Secretary of State had the power to
would meet
tirat beref battalion drills, and that, he thought,
Mr the difficulty which had been started.
IIIaM:SERSTO
make good the eeticieuln
tain members
of N, in order to meet the case of cm.,
three battalion dulls who might not be able to attend
the year, suggested that they might
Mr. W. E. poßsel, by attending extra company drills
duitheonthacertifleate of
what Period
promote battalion th.o,'lt ccoffeased he was so anxious to
Inn:lectors to dedee-Zwthabstitecaneareefe.rred leaving' it to the
with,tmeer e.
rßtifitrcaltrofNefleaackedien, from
HeetalttieTnlNtaGTO-N
it should be dispensed
The Marquis of
service would bear cY to cutethe year was
the 30th of November in each the twelve
council would be laid before Parliament The
drag
Prftecibkg
became law. filament as soon orders of
as the bin
Claim() 12 was then agreed to.
• On clause 19,
Mr. HIBBERT moved the rejection of the clause, which
-
was a copy of the old clause in the old Act. There were h
doubt many bad precedehts in the legislation of the reign
no
of George 111., and assuredly this was one of them. Itap.
peered to him most objectionable that volunteers should
be called upon to suppress riots, particularly in counties
like Lancashire, where popular disturbances generally
had reference to questions of labour and to the rates o
wages. One section of a corps might answer to a cal
made upon them to aid in the suppression of a riot while

another section might hold back; and infallibly that would
lead to the section that held back being regarded with sus-

picion by the authorities. He thought that the being open
to such a contingency would very much detract from the
popularity of the volunteer force, and therefore he called cn

the committee to strikeout the clause.

Col. SYKES supported the omission of the clause.
Sir G. GREY said, if hon members examined the clause,
they would see that volunteers could only be used for the

suppression of a riot subject to the sanction of the lord lieu-
tenant of the county and of the Secretary of State. He ad-
mitted the inexpediency of their being generally employed
f)r such a purpose; but, subject to the restrictions men-
tioned, ho believed the committee might very safely assent
to the retention of the cl,use. _

Mr. BUXTON was persuaded the clause would work the
most serious evil, especially in the case of working men's
corps. It night be possible, in their case, that when called
out to act against the rioters some of the men would refuse
to act, and then the confusion would be aggravated tenfold.
Lord ELCHO said there was no doubt whatever of the
exceeding popularity of the volunteers, and that that popu•
larity had grewn up under a law which authorised the em•
ployment of the force in the mode now deprecated, the only
difference between the old and the new law being, that pro-
vision was now made to ensure the volunteers being only

called out in the most extreme cases. He was by no nica.s

persuaded that working men's corps, which he might ob-
serve were among the best disciplined in the service, would
require to take part in the suppression of local disturbances
A great deal of evidence had been laid befo e the commis-
sion as t 9 the effect of volunteering upon artisans ; and ono
of the most remarkable of these effects was that it made men
much nacre sober, while it made loyal men of chartis, s.
(Hear, hear.) The bill was drawn up on the quieta not
movers principle, and therefore it would bo well not to re-

ject a provision found to exist in the old law.
Mr. AYRTON hoped the hon. member for Bradford
would persevere in his opposition to the clause, It was ob-
jectionable in principle, and peculiarly so because the vo-
lunteers were subjected to martial law. If they were em-
ployed as mere constables, the thing would be different. He
was very much surprised that the Government should have

thought of reviving such a clause.
Mr. A. EGERTON could not disapprove of the clause,
for it seemed to him that whatever force was employed to
suppress rioting should be as disciplined as possible; and
he reminded the committee that the yeomanry, who were
liable to be so engaged, were subject to martial law.
Mr. POTTER had a very distinct recollection of the
calling out of the yeomanry to suppress the rioting at Man-
chester, and of the dreadful consequences which followed.
He well remembered the odium which long attached to the
yeomanry for the part they were then called upon to take,
and he knew that a friend of his was unable to survive the
horrors of the occasion. (Hear.)
Mr. ROGERS hoped he might not live to see the day
when volunteers would be called out to suppress popular
tumults, but at the same time he must say he regarded the
force not only as a surety for peace abroad, but likewise at
home. (Hear.)
Mr. EVANS, speaking on behalf of the volunteers, was
quite certain that the great majority of them were not
aware that such a provision existed in the Volunteer Act.
Mr. SEL WYN reminded 11011. members opposite that
it was not made compulsory upon volunteers to aid in the
suppression of riots ; the clause left it entirely optional
with members of a corps to do so ; and, though every one
admitted that, in all probability, no case would ever arise
for the exercise of the power, yet, in the interest of
peace and humanity, it might turn out of very great im-
portance. When they bore in mind the limited number of
her Majesty's troops, and the effect which the presence of a
large military force had in checking bloodshed on the occa-
sion of popular tumults, he might well call upon the com-
mittee, in the interest of humanity, to support the clause.
Sir J. SHELLEY thought that, for the sake of peace
and humanity, the clause ought to be rejected. (Hear,
hear.) There was no doubt that a small body of soldiers
was most effectual for the suppression of a riot ; and if
volunteers were to be made useful. in the same way, their
presence ought to be made obligatory, and not optional.
(Hear, hear.) He telieved the clause would have a very
bad effect upon the interests of the volunteer force—and he
felt most strongly, as the commanding officer of a working
men's corps, that it was most impolitic to place volunteers
in the situation contemplated by the clause.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER should vote for the amendment
of the hon. member for Oldham. If the volunteers were to
be employed at all in the suppression of rioting, it would be
much better that their attendance as a body should be made
compulsory than that it should be left optional with mem-
bers to undertake the duty. Otherwise, in cases of extreme
emergency, it would be much better that tho volunteers
should be called upon to act merely as special constables.
Mr. HEADLAM quite agreed as to the general inexpe-
diency of employing volunteers to disperse a mob. At the
same time, if the restrictions attaching to the exercise of the
powers enforced by the clause were taken into account, it
would.be apparent that no danger could follow from it. He
could conceive circumstances in which it might be exceed-
ing desirable that such a power should exist. For example,
in the north of England, where there were many artillery
corps, it might be most useful to place such corps in strong
positions, leaving the regular troops free to act against the
mob. (Oh, oh.)
Earl GROSVENOR would very much prefer to see the
volunteers act as special constables. (Hear, hear.) He
deprecated the responsibility which the clause threw upon
colonels of regiments, and it should receive his opposition.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir M. FA.RQUHAR likewise opposed the clause.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON then announced that.
as such appeared to be the general wi,h of the committee,
the Government were willing to withdraw the clause.
(:ihe;ers, accompanied by cries of " No, no," from the Op-
position benches.)
• The clause was accordingly negatived without a division.
On clause 21,
Sir It. CLIFTON proposed, in line 17, after "cause," to
leave out to and including " officer," in line 19, and insert
" such causes respectively to be committed to writing, and
communicated to the accused by the adjutant of such corps
and the existence and sufficiency of such causes respectively
to be judged of by a court to be summoned by the command •
ing officer, and to consist of one captain, two subaltern offi-
cers, and two non-commissioned officers or privates of the
same corps." The clause, as it stood, gave commanding
officers power to dismiss officers as well as privates of corps,
without any court of appeal being open to them. He trusted
the committee would show its sense of the gratitude due to
those gentlemen who came forward in the most patriotic
manner when the noble lord at the head of the Grvernment
called "wolf," by opening to them a court of appeal against
what might be very arbitrary treatment.
Mr. H. LEW IS said he had received numerous commu-
nications from both officers and privates, one and all con-
demnatory of the clause as it stood. It was said that it did
not apply to officers, but, whether it did or not, it was equally
to be objected to, for it might have the effect of blighting the
prospects in life of private volunteers. (Hear, hear.) At
present the greatest harmony prevailed between officers and
privates; but if such a power as this were given to com-
manding officers, that harmony would no longer prevail.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON hoped the committee
would retain the clause as it stood.
Lord ELCHO said it would be impossible to maintain
any discipline without that clause. If a volunteer desired
to leave hie regiment, he had only to give 14 days' notice,
with an appeal to the Sovereign through the Secretary for
War in case of need. He regretted to have to remark that
printed papers bad been sent round to various commanding
officers, referring to a dispute between the South Middlesex
and the Queen's, and also an extract from a speech of the
hon. member for Nottingham. He ventured to say that
that was not a proper step to take; it had a tendency to
create ill-feeling, and the 'act that it had not done so was
a proof of the healthy state of discipline of the volunteers
generally. He had also heard of some Volunteer Defence
X
e
ofFs
etrisami Finsbury
enortbry: udwacr:tEhtohheLtewas
wesHa
association
ossdhot
ahachsi mtedhi
"fulloaad unwp
Association, of which he believed the hon. member for
i
t
apsnrsfrhoi
ttavahhpanei zist
private"
shnwsi
nedo
hon,
aht t eohteni
svo,uveurgoglhteuoonfuhudte
heoe
emrawsat
would t h
et
eh
na
.nkincodujiald
existence now or not.
Mr. COX said he did not know. He had nothing to do
with it.
Lord ELCHO regretted he had been misinformed. He
had heard, however, that the very improper proceeding of
sending round printed papers had been adopted by certain
volunteers. One of those papers had reflected upon Lord
Ranelagh, who took proceedings against the parties, and
would no doubt have succeeded had not an apology been
offered and accepted. He thought, if a commanding officer
were fit to have any power at all, he was fit to be entrusted
with the power contained in the clause.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he would support the
clause, not because he thought it was necessary, as the
power was already given by the old Act; but he thought
that that recognition of it might be useful. It should be
remembered that here there was an appeal to the Secretary
for War, and the only object was to make that power
permanent.
Mr. BUXTON supported the clause. He thought there
was no alternative but to leave the power in the hands of the
commanding officer,
Mr. COX said he wished to say a few words, because he
had no doubt that immediately after the vote he was about
to give he should be dismissed from his position as a full
private volunteer. (A laugh.) He had no sympathy with
noble lords who came down to that house and charged a
private member of Parliament with being the chairman of
ties vtontun. teer.
societies formed to bring about dissensions amongst the
'volunteers. Very few of the volunteers knew that there
wuany such arbitrary power of dismissal already in exis-
teu•oot' and if the proposed clause were to be carried, half
,riantle,liraistied at a moment's notice without carning
would leave at once. They would never sub-
ways beiit `4l' (Hear, hear.) Petitions upon the subject
said that prepared throughout the country. It had been
ltuicenteirua4;„,:_.uiteavithretdrpdais;charge himself at 14 days'
no
teer' el name was Hutchins.
the, commanding
volunteer he wee pr, ado sad
him and discharged
(Hear, and "Name: :rent frou, as a
) The, rmling any other corps.
w"ottioodttieei:bubtefhoerekutheawma
dayscase wexhpeirreeda
holtso to hear the language