The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 8, 1363.

members had voted against the second reading of the
bill, he was most anxious to be allowed the opportunity of
stating that he would not have the slightest hesitation in
recording his vote in favour of the measure. And he voted
for it, not merely because it was a moderate concession
to the reasonable demands of the Roman Catholics and
the other non-established sects of the country, but also
upon the higher and more truly Protestant ground that the
Sate had no right to give greater facilities to one body of
religionists than to another. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON held this to be a bill with regard
to which every man should vote according to his sense of
Christian duty, and it was only under that sense that the
amendment had been moved. It was therefore with some
regret that he had seen a deviation from that spirit in the
speech of the hon. member for Cornwall (Mr. Kendall). He
entirely and distinctly repudiated any desire to conciliate
the support of certain members by voting for the bill; his
sense of Christian duty forbade him to oppose it. He had a
strong conviction that if he were to vote against the bill he
should not be voting for the honour of the Church of Eng-
lnad. The present was one of those cases in which they
were called upon to act in a spirit of toleration, and surely
they were bound ro extend the benefit of spiritual consola-
tion to that class of the community which required it more
than any other. (Hear, hear.)
Lord H. LENNOX, representing a constituency in
which the Church of England was specially favoured—in.
deed he might say predominant—desired to state that the
bill should receive his cordial and unhesitating support,
because it redresses a practical grievance under which
Roman Catholic prisoners suffered.
Mr. WHALLEY, who was received with loud and pro-
long-A cries of " Divide, divide," and other manifestations
of impatience on the part of the house, submitted that no
evidence whatever had been offered in support of a measure
which introduced an entirely novel principle of taxation.
It was the opinion of practical authorities that the bill
would be destructive of the discipline of our gaols.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST intended to oppose the bill, but
merely because it did not afford a real redress for the
grievance which it professed to meet. if the local magic
trates thougbt per the measure would be a dead
letter; and, therefore, he had no hesitation in pronouncing
it mere clap trap, and as simply indicative of the storm
which was threatening in the poli.ical horizon.
Maj -a* HAMILTON said that the opinions expressed at
country meetings in Scotland had been unanimously against
the bill.
After a few words from Sir G. GREY,
The house divided, the numbers being—
For going into committee 172
Against it
141
Majority. - 31
The house then went into committee, and clause 1 was
agreed to.
On clause 2,
Mr. MURE moved that the bill be limited to England,
on the ground that in Scotlandits provisions were unneces-
sary, In that country clergymen of any denomination could
visit a prisoner of the same sect, without his having made a
special request for such spiritual visitation. The applica-
tion of the measure to Scotland, he was afraid, would lead
to bitter and prolonged agitation; and wishing to prevent
angry discussions at the county boards, he begged to move
thst Scotland should be excluded from the operation of the
bill.

Sir G. GREY said, inasmuch as the law of Scotland for-
bade any minister from visiting a prison, except a clergy-
man of the Presbyterian Church, he could not consent to
exclude Scotland from the operation of the bill. There
were large numbers of Roman Cathol c prisonersconfined in
the gaols of _cotland, and out of 173 Roman Catholic pri-
soners in the gaol of Glasgow only three had been visited
by a priest. If the hon. and learned gentleman could not
show him that the law of Scotland enabled the local boards
to appoint and pay a minister or clerical agent other than a
minister of the Presbyterian Church, he could not consent
to the motion.
Mr. NE WDEGATE said there was a powerful organi-
sation going on in this country and in Scotland, not only
for the propagation of the Roman Catholic religion, but
also for the es-ablishment of temporal power. Session
after session they were rapidly preparing the way for that
which Cardinal Wiseman had been appointed to establish.
(A laugh.) If there was no difference between the Pro-
testant and the Roman Catholic Church, why have an
Established Church; and if a Roman Catholic sovereign
was as agreeable as a Protestant, why not have a Roman
Catholic sovereign? (Hear.) First they commenced by
appointlig chaplains to convict prisons; the next step was
the appointment of chaplains fo,- the army; the next step
would be an application for chaplains in the navy ; and by-
and-by there would be an application to have a Roman
Catholic chaplain in eve--y parish throughout the country.
Mr. A. KINNAIRD said the feeling in Scotland was
very str..ng in this matter, and he trusted his hon. and
learned friend would take the sense of the committee upon
his amendment.
Lord C. HAMILTON appealed to the hon. members for
Scotland to treat the Roman Catholics in Scotland upon the
same principle of equality and joatice with which Scotch-
men were treated in Ireland. What did Scotchwen find
when they came to Ireland? they found in every public
institution of that country a chaplain of their own persua-
sion. In every institution in Ireland there was a chaplain
of the Established Church, a chaplain of the Roman Catho-
lic Church, and a chaplain of the Presbyterian Church. As
all were declared equal before the law, he trusted that the I
hon. memb-rs for Scotland would not refuse the same mea
sure of justice to the Roman Catholic prisoners in the gaols
of that country. As to the argument about proselytism,
there could be no be ter way of preventing it than by giv•
ing the Roman Catholic clergyman a charge to attend to.
His experience as a magistrate for 27 years had taught him
the justice of treating all prisoners upon principles of per-
fect equality, and he sht,uld, therefore, vote against the
amendment. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ELCHO said the majority upon the late division
proved that the house wished to pass this measure. If
he could persuade himself that it would be a heavy blow
to the Established Church, he would not support it ; but
he had more confidence in the stability of the Established
hurch than to suppose a measure of justice to Roman Ca-
tholic prisoners would imperil her safety. He could not un-
derstand how such an opinion could be entertained except
by those who, like the hen. member for Peterborough (Mr.
Whalley), represented the blind bigotry and intolerance of
an extrE me section of the Church of England. They could
not exclude Roman Catholic priests from the prisons any
more than the ministers of other denominations, and he con-
tended it was their duty to afford to Roman Catholic pri-
soners, where they were in sufficient numbers, the same
privileges that were granted to Protestants. (Hear, hear.)
Scotland ought n, 4 to be exempted from the operation of the
bill. At present Roman Catholic priests had a right to visit
Roman Catholic prisoners confined in Scotch prisons, but by
the working of the law they did not get access to them.
Mr BENTINCK agreed with the hon. member for Nor, h
We rwickshire that the bill was part of the scheme of a sys-
tem that had been persevered in for centuries for the pro-
mulgation of the doctrines tel the Roman Catholic religion,
and that it was a bill that had been made use of in that
house for party cabals, the result of which, he ventured to
predict, would be anything but beneficial to those who un-
dertook them. Agreeing as he did with the hon. gentleman
that the bill was a bad and mischievous measure, be c uld
not understand how the hon. gentleman could justify his
not relieving one part of the kingdom from its operation,
because by so doing there was so much gained by diminish-
ing what they considered an evil. He should vote for the
amendment.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE supported the application of the
bill to Scotland.
Colonel SYKES said the Government proposed to
legislate in a manner adverse to the wishes of the great ma-
jority of the people of Scotland and England. There was
no wrong to remedy, as Roman Catholic prisoners were
not deprived of the spirituel consolation of their priests,
because they had flee access to them at their pleasure.
The bill, if carried, would impos a new religious endow-
ment on the country. The course of legislation during past
years had been to break down such endowments, and not to
create IL w ones. Whether the Roman Catholic chaplains
were paid by Government or by local taxation, it came to the
same end, as the money would have to be paid by the tax
payers.

Mr. A. BLACK was opposed to the bill. He believed
they had no right to give a preference to any man, whether
Protestant or Roman Catholic, Mahometan or Hindoo. So
long- as he was a good citiz=n that was all that was required.
(Hear, and laughter.) A prison was a place of punishment
and not a building for the practice of religious toleration.
(Laughter.) lie thought little good resulted from the visits
of any chaplains to prisons, but he was disposed to betieve
'hat much benefit resulted from the visits of those excellent
persoc s, male and female, who went into our prisons and
read, conversed, and sy mpathised with the prisoners. They
kad more confidence in them than in all the Roman Catho-
lic and Protestant priests that visited them. Prisoners were
not entitled to the same amount of religious toleration as
was enjoyed by honest men. (Hear and laughter.) He
believed that the only effect of the bill would be to sow dis-
sension amongst the prison boards in Scotland, and upon
that account it .hould receive his most strenuous opposition.
Mr. STIRLING admitted that very few Roman Catho-
lic chaplains would be appointed in Scotland, but he might
at the same time state that if the bill was likely to pro-
duce dissension there were occasions on which it was
,ight the dissension .hould be produced. (Hear, hear.)
It was in evidence that nearly one-third of the criminals
in Glasgow gaol were Roman Catholics, and surely it
was fitting chat they should be supplied with the means
of worshipping God according to the faith that was in
them. A great number of the clergy of Scotland were
opposed to the bill, but that house had to consider not
merely the wants of the majority, but the claims of the
minority. (Herr, hear.)

Mr. BAXTER would vote against the bill, because he
believed that it would tend to restrict the completely
free systesa now in operation in Scotland. At present
there was nothing whatever to prevent the clergy of any
denomination from having access to the criminals of their
denomination; and he himself could testify to the zeal and
assiduity with which the Roman Catholic missionary at
Dundee ministered to the wants of the Roman Catholic in-
matescate in the atrongeet
of the gaol of that town. At the same time he must
terms that spiritual terrnrism

which had been brought to bear in Scotland by certain
clerical agitators in opposition to the bill.
Mr. MAGUIRE was very much surprised, after the con-
cluding announcement of the hon. member, that he was
going to vote against the bill. Surely, by adopting that
course, he was playing into the hands of those clerical agi•
tators whom he had so freely repudiated.
Mr. BUCHANAN admitted that he was one of those
" p c•eminent delinquents" from Scotland who voted for
the second reading of the bill, and his simple reason for
doing so was that he regarded it as the proper complement
of the past legislation of that house with respect to Roman
Catholics.
Mr. C. E WING would support the amendment, princi-
pally because he was opposed to all State endowments of
religion.

Mr. MACKAY complained of the tone assumed by the
Scottish Reformation Society towards Scotch members.
Mr. NE WDEGATE explained that he did not vote against
the amendment on account of any un friendly feeling towards
Scotland, but because he did not wish to separate the ele-
ments of resistance to a system which could not be tolerated.
After a few words from Mr. Mula and Sir G. GREY,
The committee divided—
For the clause
.. 96
For the amendment 55
Majority
The amendment was therefore negatived.
On clause 3,
Mr. HUNT moved the omission of the first two para-
graphs of clause 3, with a view to strike out the p.ovision
for payment to be provided for ministers attending pri-
soners in gaols.
Sir G. GREY observed that the effect of the amendment
would be to deprive the beards of justices of the power of
appointing a Roman Catholic or Di stinting minister to
attend to the ap ritual wants of prisoners of either denomi •
nation, and would amount practically to a rejection of the
bill. Provision was already made by Act of Parliament
for the rayment of 18 Roman Catholic chaplains to the
troops in this country, exclu-iee of those abroad.
Mr. WHALLEY, in seconding the amendment, asked if
there was a tittle of evidence to warrant the introduction of
Ih- present measure, which aimed at establishing, in a
mosf essential manner, the Roman Catholic religion. The
noble lord the member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho)
thought proper to apply to him the term "blind bigot"—
(laughter)—but he denied that he was open to the imputa-
tion, for he had never said anything offensive to the Roman
Catholic religion. What he objected to was, that side by
side with that religion there was a political system growing
up which threatened the stability of the constitution of the
realm. The hon gentleman read a list of Roman Catholic
meetines which had been held in various parts of England
and Ireland, whet e the health of the rope was drunk before
that of the Queen, and stared that the ribbon societies Li'
Ireland were organised and regulated by the Roman
Catholic priests—a fact which must be known to the right
hon. gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland. (Hear,
hear, and laughter).
Sir R. PEEL said the hon. member was very fond of
referring to him. (A laugh.) The hon. member had just
told the comm ttee that he was able to prove the Roman
Catholic priests were connected with the ribbon societies
of Ireland. He must say it was very improper for the
hon. member to make such an assertion, for it was well
known to everybody who knew anything of the matter
that, so far from ribbon societies being prevalent in the
South of Ireland, the contrary was the fact, and he re-
gretted to say the latest discovery of a ribbon society was
in the county of Donegal, (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member should be more accurate in his facts when he spoke
of Ireland.
Mr. WHALLEY said that, notwithstanding the rebuke
of the right hon. gentleman, he was prepared to prove that
the ribbon societies of Ireland were courts organised and
regulated by the Roman Catholic priests for the purpose of
carrying out the canon law of Ireland. (Great laughter,)
Sir M. FARQUHAR regretted that such a digression,
which was wholly beside the question, should have taken
place. He considered the bill quite unnecessary, and he
should support the amendment. If the change was neces-
sary the Government ought to have taken the responsibility
of appointing the chaplains.
Mr. PULLER supported the clause.
After some remarks from Sir L, PALK,
Mr. WALPOLE said the greatest difficulty was involved
in the question. He was of opinion that the bill introduced
greater evils than those already existing. (Hear.) There
were no doubt many instances where the Roman Catholi."
priest could not be expected to give up his time without
some remuneration ; whilst, on the other hand, there were
no doubt many cases where proper attendance would be given
to the prisoners, as was now done by the Nonconformists,
without rmeuneration. The caee of the army chaplains did
not apply. The soldier was employed by the State, and his
spiritual wants ought to be attended to by the State, and it
was the same in Government prisons; but, instead of act-
ing on that principle, by the bill with regard to borough
and county prisons they were introducing a new principle,
and were transferring to every county in the kingdom that
agitation on religious questions that exis,ed in that house.
(Hear.) He objected to the appointments being in the
magistrates, and urged that they ought to be made on the
responsibility of Government, under rules laid down by
them for the guidance of the magistrates, and tne payment
ought to be by vote of that house, as the only body who
represented the people in matters of tax ,tion. (Hear.)
Sir G GREY hoped the committee would not be carried
away from the question betoro them. He defended the clause
in the bill, and observed that if the magistrates could not
properly appoint a Roman Catholic infest to a prisoL, and
pr vide the necessary expense attending thereon, they
were incompetent for the discharge of those other onerous
duties of taxation and general county management which
devolved upon them. He could not, however, believe they
would find any difficulty about the matter.
After some remarks from Sir B. Lytton against, and Mr
W. Martin in support the clause, and a few observations
from Mr. Hunt in explanation,
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
Sir W. JOLLIFFE then proposed an amendment in the
same clause, the effect of which was to render the appoint-
ment of paid chaplains obligatory upon magistrates and
prison boards, where the average number of prisoners of
any denomination during the preceding 12 months amounted
to 20. Unless his amendment were accepted, he believed
the measure would prove a dead letter.
Sir G. GREY considered that they had no alternative
unless they were prepared to adopt the Irish system of
having paid chaplains of the several denominations under
all circumstances, but to leave the appointment discretionary
with the magistrates.
Upon that the amendment was withdrawn.
Mr, BENTINCK moved to omit the words "or other
person" in the Bth line of the clause. His object was to
direct attention to the fact that the bill would not take effect
except with the sanction of the titular Roman Catholic
bishop of the diocese, and he did not believe that the House
of Commons was altogether prepared to legislate in such a
spiri'

Sir G. GREY reminded the honourable gentleman that,
although there was a paid Roman Catholic chaplain at-
tached to every gaol in Ireland, he was obliged to travel
back to 30 years ago to find an instance of the inconvenit nce
at which he pointed. From the very paucity of such ex-
ampies it was a fair presumption that the system worked
well.

After some further conversation, in which Mr. Bentinck,
Sir G. Grey, Lord Stanley, Mr. Henley, Mr. Newdegate,
and Mr. Vance took part, the amendment was negatived
without a division.
Mr. BENTINCK they moved the omission of certain
words in the clause, the effect of which was to prevent
ratepayers being taxed f r these ministers without having a
voice in the matter. He recommended Roman Catholic
chaplains to show their zeal by officiating without salaries
Sir G. GREY ~aid that the omission proposed by the hon
member would not establish the principle he desired, as the

justices would still have it in their power to draw on the
county rate for the other purposes of the jail for lunatic
asylums and for many other purposes.
Sir G BO WYER said the hon. member fr,r West Nor
folk proposed that the Roman Catholic clergy should
officiate without receiving any remuneration. He would
recommend the hon member to begin with his own clergy.
If the Protestant clergy performed the duties without re-
ceiving any remuneration, their example would be followed
by the Roman Catholics.

Mr. BENTINCK thanked the hon. member for having
shown that which no Roman Catholic member had yet been
kn-twn to admit, namely, that he considered that the
Roman Clergy had a right to be put on the same footing
with the Protestant clergy.
Sir M. PETO thought they were opening a wide door by
the passing of th's bill, and, as a Noneomformist, he was
prepared to take the course wh eh he wished to have pur-
sued towards himstlf. He thought that nobody should
be asked to pay for the service of a minister but
the religious community to whom the minister belonged.
He was sur. this bill would be the e,-trumeneement of an
agitation which would go on increasing. By this bill they
were putting an end to the authority of the Established
Church. lie differed from the principles of that Church,
but still he was desirous of having her authority upheld
The right hon, member for Buckinghamshire,
who was so
ready to take the Established Church under his protection
as a means of acquiring power, was equally
ready on this
occasion to throw bis principles overboard.
After a few words from Mr. Whalley and Mr. Knightley,
Lord V. 'I EMPEST moved that the chairman repet
progress.

Mr. DISRAELI appealed to his conduct in that house
as a sufficient answer to the imputations made upon him
by the hon. baronet the member for Finsbury--imputa-
tions which no man should cast upon another without some
accurate data. 'I he mistake of the hon. baronet arose from
his confounding the payment to Roman Catholic priests
with the question of endowment, which were two distinct
things. The payment to the chaplains of the Church of
England was not an endowment, and the very fact that it
was a payment proved it was not an endowment. The real
question they had to consider was whether these individual
chaplains had a right to be paid for performing a public
duty. It was a fallacy to say that any question of endow-
ment was involved in this bill, and it was the greatest fal-

lacy of all to say that the Church of England was a stipen-
diary of the State. The whole otjections to the bill were
based on transparent fallacies.
Mr. WHITE protested against the Church principles of
the right hon. gentleman the member for Buckingham. The
Cnutch of England had only a parliamentary title, and had
not rights above the civil institutions of the land.

Sir M PEI 0 accepted all the right hon. gentleman had
said as confirming all he had said. The right hon. gentle-
man could not object to carry out the principle of prison
chaplains to all denominations.
Mr. NE WDEGA said the payment of Roman Catho-
lic chaplains would be analogous to the position of the May-
nooth grant, and partake of the character of an endowment.
Sir G GREY hoped the house would not report progress.
He denied that he was hurrying the bill through Parliament.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST withdrew the motion for report-
ing progress.

Mr. BOVILL opposed the compulsory appointment of
these chaplains, and the taxing of the people against their
consent by the magistrates for remunerating tLem, which
would, he said, create great uneasiness in the public mind.
Sir J. SHELLEY supported the amendment.
The committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
_ _

Mr. DUNCOMBE then moved that Roman Catholic
chaplains should not be appointed except in cases where
the number of prisoners in a gaol amounted to 30 at least.
Sir G. GREY disapproved of the amendment.
Mr. F. DOULTON then moved that the chairman re-
port progress;
Which was agreed to without a division.
INLAND REVENUE BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY expressed a hope that the ques-
tion of taxing clubs would be reconsidered, on account ot
the difficulty ot defining what a club was.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
see any diffi ulty in the matter of defining what was a club.
Mr. AYRTON askbd whether it was intended to do any-
thing with clubs under a rent of 1100 a year, and what
course he proposed to take with regard to levying the
duty on railway passengers.

Af. er some remarks from Lord R. Cecil, Mr. Hodgkin-
son, Mr, Hutt, and Mr. Coningham,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that he was waiting for statistical information to be supplied
by the railway companies before submitting the resolution
on taxing railway passengers, and that he had no intention
of dealit g with clubs the rental of which was under £lio a
year.

The bill was then ordered to be re-committed on Monday.
STOCK CERTIFICATES TO BEARER BILL.
The further consideration of this bill, as amended, was
resumed. Other verbal amendments were introduced, and
the report agreed to.

SAVINGS BANKS MONEYS BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
THAMES EMBANKMENT (SJUTH SIDE) BILL.
The following were nominated the select committee on
this bill :—Mr. Cowper, Lord John Manners, Mr. Doulton,
Mr. Cox, Mr. William Cubitt, Viscount Homesdale, and
five members to be nominated by the committee of
selection.

PARTNERSHIP LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD was proceeding to name the select
committee on this bill, when
Mr. BUCHANAN moved that the house be counted.
There not being 40 members present, the house stood
adjourned at half-past one o'clock.