The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-06 00:00:00

I

I 1

Sir R. PEEL thought it would be advisable, under
the circumstances to make this detour.
Mr. GROTE presented three petitions in favour of
the penny postage.

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
Col. PERCEVAL wished to know whether the
Government had done anything to relieve the misery
which was experienced in the neighbourhood of New-
port, in the county of Mayo. He had in his hand a
letter on this subject, a few lines of which he would
read to the House.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
understood to say that the less discussion there was on
this subject the better. He would suggest that
the better plan would be to lay the letter before the
Gnvernment.

Colonel PERCEVAL said there were many families
living on one meal a day, and that of potatoes of the
worst description.

EVENING EDITION.

,
an,l in t;,at. B:il :,here ci,inse :tripowering the
City to raise money upon tiie security of certain funds.
Mie Bill lid escaped his obervation till one of the last
stagps, trlien a doubt sug;ested itself whether its pro-
visions would not interfere with the power of the Trea-
sury.regarding the object contemplated by the Commit-
tee. Till this doubt was set at rest, and till it was as-
certained whether the funds would be amply sufficient
for that object, the Government could not pledge itself
to any course.
Mr. H. HINDE was glad to hear this explanation,
and expressed a hope that the taxes to be imposed for
this object would not be continued longer than nece,sary.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
plied that they would not be continued (we believe)
linger than to 1858.
Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know whether he
could bring on the question of the reduction of the fire
insurance duty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said the Gallant Colonel would have an opportunity in
Committee on Ways and Means.
SEWERS.

Mr. SLANEY vvir.lied to ask his Right Hon.
Friend if it was his intention to include i❑ the re-
commendation to the Board of Works any measure
for the sewerage and drainage of the metropolis. This
was a measure of the utmost importance to the health
and comfort of the poorer inhabitants, and was a
subject well worthy of attention.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the improvement of the sewers was a matter of
very great importance, but the attention of the Com-
mittee 'had been specially directed to one object, and
had no connection with the management of the sewers.
Mr. SLANEY said the Committee had distinctly
stated, that if the improvement which they had recom-
mended in the buildings of the metropolis were to be
made, it would have the effect of producing a great
improvement in the sewerage and drainage.
MONOPOLY OF PAPER.

Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the
paper manufacturers of Lancashire to which he wished
to draw the attention of the House. The petitioners
stated that they had understood that it had been
a recommendation of the Postsge Committee, with
reference to Mr. Rowland Hill's plan, that a monopoly
of the manufacturing of the paper intended to be used
for stamped envelopes should be given to one manufactu-
rer, in order to prevent frauds being practiced on the reve-
nue. They expressed a hope that it was not the intention
of her Majesty's Government to give a monopoly of the
manufacture of this paper to Mr. Dickenson, and that
the House would not sanction any plan for the esta-
blishment of a penny postage which should place in
the hands of any single individual a monopoly of the
manufacture of paper, but that the supply should be
left open to tender.
SUMMARY JURISDICTION BILL.
Sir E. WILMOT wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Home De-
partment if it was the intention of the Government to
Proceed with the Summary Jurisdiction Bill during the
present Session ? If it were not, he wished they would
embody one of the clauses of that Bill in a short Bill, so
as to have it passed into law during the present Session,
he meant that clause which enabled Sheriffs to carry
prisoners from one gaol to another through another county.
The public were aware that there had yesterday been
riots in Birmingham, and that it had been the inten-
tion of the rioters to attack the gaols and public
offices. Now it would be necessary, this day, to bring
forty prisoners from Birmingham to Warwick, and they
would have to go through a part of the county of Wor-
cester on their journey. The consequence would
be they would no longer be in the legal custody
of the Sheriff, and he would be liable to an
escape. It was to be hoped that the rioters
had not attacked the van this morning in its passage
through Worcestershire, but if they had, and set the
prisoners at liberty, there would be no legal redress.
He hoped, therefore, that a Bill to remedy this incon-
venience would be introduced this Session.
Mr. FOX MAULE said it was the intention of the
Government to proceed with the measure alluded to,
but if they should be unable to do so, the suggestion of
the Hon. Baronet was worthy of consideration.
Sir H. PEEL asked if the necessity of passing
through the county of Worcester could not be obviated
by making a detour?
Sir E. WILMOT said it might, but it must be a
detour of ten miles.

Mr. O'CoN NELL said it was impossible that any
discussion would increase the misery which prevailed on
the western coast of Ireland. The misery was becom-
ing so oppressive that it was absolutely necessary some
steps should be taken without the least delay.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had received simi-
lar accounts from the south-western parts of Ireland,
I where the distress was most appalling. At Bantry
13,000 were in a state bordering on starvation, out of a
population of 7,000.
BUDGET,—POST OFFICE ACTS.
The House naving resolved itself into Committee on
the Post Office Acts,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
rose and said—" Sir, I cannot proceed with the obser-
vations I may have to make without expressing my
earnest hope that I may meet with great indulgence
on the part of the House ; and I must say, I
express that hope with confidence, because in preceding
Sessions I have met with the greatest indulgence and
the utmost attention. I wish to explain to the
House the course I propose to take. The
resolution I am about to propose is a resolution
of the greatest possible importance, as 1 shall en-
deavour to show, to some of the highest and the
best interests of the country, but it is also of importance
in a financial point of view ; and, therefore, I thought it
was right that the House should be aware of the actual
financial condition of the country before they attempted
to decide on the other proposition. Therefore, the ob-
servations I shall deem it my duty to address to the
House will naturally divide themselves into two branches ;
the first, an exposition of the existing state of the finances ;
the other an explanation of the proposition which I have
to make, a recital of the authority to be found, a state-
ment of the consequences to which I think it is likely
to lead, and a recommendation on the part of the Go-
vernment to the House, that, coupled with the con-
ditions with which I hold it insuperably united, the
House should undertake the consideration of this question.
Sir, I shall now proceed to the first part of the subject,
namely the state of the present finances of the country.
I cannot approach that subject without calling the at-
tention of the House to the new position in which, to a
certain extent, the House and the Government have,
of late, and more especially in the present year, placed
themselves. Upon former occasions undoubtedly, whether
inCommittees of Supply or with respect to the expenditure
. of the country, until later times it was the duty of the
individual who had to explain the subject, to show that
he had used all possible economy—to show that he
lied cut down every estab6ishment to the utmost, and,
in fact, that he had met every possible objection t hat was
likely to be urged on the part of the Representatives of
the people. Sir, I must remind the House, more esp. cially
in the course of the present Session, I am not speaking it
as matter of reproach, but I am detailing it as matter of
history, that the relative position of the two parties in
this House has changed. We have not gone into Com-
mittee of Supply, without being threatened with amend-
silents, not for the purpose of reducing establish-
nients, but of increasing them. If we go into
a Committee on the Navy Estimates, we are told
that the Navy is unfit to represent the people of
England, and that the Government would be forgetful
of their duty if they did not greatly add to that esta-
blishment. So with respect to the marine half pay, and
other subjects. In every branch of the service we are
met at every turn and in every circumstance with
complaints that ese do not go, with respect to
expenditure, far enough, and every disposition is
shown on the part of the House to go much further
in the expenditure than the Government are disposed to
do. So, with respect to the miscellaneous fund. In fact
there is scarcely a single public or private claim that is put
forward, that does not at once find an able, efficient,
and. I regret to say, sometimes a successful, advocate to
compel the Government to agree to money votes
which they never thought of. Even, Sir, the altera-
tions which are made in our laws. alterations produc-
tive of great improvement, are attended with consider-
able expense. The system adopted, and wisely and
efficiently adopted, with a view of improving many of
E our most valuable institutions, while it effects an im..
prevement and saving to the local public, has cast
I upon the general public, as represented in this House,
increased expenditure. For instance, I am not disposed
to undervalue, on the contrary from my con-
nexion with the Government who have carried
that question, I value the Poor-laws, but those
ilaws whilst they have saved to the counties and the agri
culturists, very considerable sums have entailed upon the
public, as I see by the estimates, a sum of no less than
73,0001. In like manner this House was besieged with
Ipetitions, to give to the community at large, and more es-
I secially to the Dissenting portion of thecommunity, a good
:littera of registration. Well, a system has been devised
leh ich has gained the assent cf. both Houses of Parlia-
ment. I presume, and believe, that the system is a good
one, but again, while the benefit has been conferred
1 upon t.he public it has to be paid for, and it appears on

the estimates in the shape of a sum of 20,0001. in like
manner the Tithe Composition Act costs the country
82,0004 a year ; the factory inspectors 8,0001. a year ;
iG,peetors of prisers 5,6001. ; and many other charges of
such a nature which were only introduced in later years,
while the burden to the public has been very large, and
for which the II :use has considered the Ways and Means
is hound to supply the finds. In like manner there
were many other matters of a pressing character which
the Government has been called on to undertake.
There is the great system of steam communication
throughout the world—the steam communication with
India, which costs the country 100,0001. a-year, and
to which the public contribute 50,0001. There have
been also many measures of benevolence and charity
undertaken of late years—there is the interest upon
the West Indian Loan for the emancipation of the
negroes—the grant for the education of the Degrees in
the West Indies, which the Government has taken up,
and also the education of the people of this country,
which the Government has most properly under-
taken. You have voted large sums for these pur-
poses of benevolence and improvement. You make
improvements sshich, while they confer great benefit
on the public, are also a large expense to the
State. For instance, the communication which is
the subject I have now to refer to—the com-
munication of letters. You have now a railroad
communication open thronghout a great part
of the country, and of course the corresponding
public has the right to the full benefit of such commu-
nication. The Government is bound to give it, and
the public will not be satisfied without it ; but it costs
you a very large sum, and on one single line of commu-
nication—one branch of the service—l had an oppor-
tunity lately of comparing the expense with thet
previously incurred before the introduction of rail-
roads to that which is now incurred for Post-office
communication, and I find the former sum of 7,0001.
increased by the sum of 30,0004 in order to give the
public- the benefit of railroad communication. The
railroad system is better and more efficient ; I do not
complain of it ; but I am only showing the various
causes in modern times which have compelled the Go-
vernment to increase the expenditure of the country.
The consequence of many of these causes, and more
especially, and I may also add, the sense of
duty on the part of Government itself, has red, in the
present year, to a great increase in the estimates, and
to that in the first instance, I wish to call the attention
of the House. The estimates for the Army in the
year 1838 were 6,322,0001., while the estimates
in the present year are 6,563,000/. The esti-
mates for the Navy in the former year were
4,811,0004, and for the present year 5,197,000/. The
estimate for the Ordnance in the former year was
1,546,0004, and in the present year 1,732,000/.
In short, Sir, of the three great branches of the public
service, there is an increase of 812,0001. on the esti-
mates of the year, without taking into account any ex-
traordinary expenditure for Canada. The increased
charge for the year is on the whole 919,220/. What is
my object in stating these things? I wish to bring
practically before the House, when they view the
general state of, the finances of the country,
that which they are very apt to forget,
that if we are disposed to sanction an in-
crease of expenditure, we must not afterwards quar-
rel with the individual whose duty it is to ask the
House to provide for such additional expenditure. Sir,
I shall now proceed to compare my statements, in the
Budget of last year, with the actual results of the in-
come and expenditure of this year, and then I shall
proceed to my estimate for the year, as to which
we have now to provide ;- abstracting at present,
from my consideration, the extra charges for Canada,
which I reserve for a subsequent reference, ex-
cept when a passing allusion may be necessary.
Last year I stated my calculation of the income from
the Customs to be 20,795,0004, whereas it has
amounted to 21,210,000/. The Excise I calculated
last year at 13,902,000/., it has fallen short of that
estimate, having amounted only to 13,729,0001. I ap-
prehended that I should have calculated rightly in
taking the average for the two preceding years,
when I should have been within a few thousands
had I taken the average of the three preceding
years. The calculation as to the Stamp Duties
has been singularly verified. I calc\ulated that they
would produce 7,000,0004 ; they have produced
7,043,000/. Taxes I calculated at 3,654.000/. ; they
have produced 3,700,000/. The Post-office I calculated
at 1,683,000/. ; the produce has been 1,674,0001.
Miscellaneous, I calculated at 279,0001. ; the result
has been 474,000/. ; but that was not so much an
excess of receipt, as of repayment, referring to Ca-
nada. The whole estimate was 47,271,000/. ; the re-
ceipt has been 47,833,000/. Upon the general estimate,
of this magnitude, I do think the House will consider
that a closer approximation could scarcely have been
made, especially as this 611,000/. was an increase of the
receipts.—( Hear, hear.)

An HON. MEMBER was understood to ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman what the state of the corn duties
was.

The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER—I
am glad the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, has
asked a question in reference to the state of the
duties on corn, because a most singular misappre-
hension has prevailed, and been circulated through-
out the public on that subject. If it had not
been for the present state of the Corn-laws,
which diminishes the amount of duty, instead of the
many difficulties I have now to contend with, I should
have had a very different state of finance to explain. I
shall be able to tell exactly the difference of the corn
receipts in the two years I have compared, which,
I believe, is the object the Right Honourable
Gentleman has in view, and those years were 1837

and 1838. The duties upon foreign corn, received
in 1837, amounted to 306,8601. In the course

of the last year they amounted to 146,0001 ; so that if
it had not been for the circumstance to which gentle•
men have attributed a large increase of the public reve-

nue, there would have been a much greater revenue.

;hough it is just the reverse of what-gentlemen have
bought ; but I shall advert to this again hereafter. I

have shown the excess of the receipt to have been
611,3151. above the estimate of last year ; but
I wish I could, on that account, state that the
result was satisfactory. I regret to state that the
result is not as satisfactory as I could have wished, be-
cause whilst the income of the country has exceeded my
previous anticipation, the expenditure of the country
has exceeded my estimate in a much larger proportion.
That expenditure has exceeded my expectations by

reason •f the events in British North America

mainly ; but there are other circumstances connected

with the state of the country which have also added to

it. I shall proceed now to compare my estimate of the
expenditure with the actual expenditure, as I coin-
pare my estimate of receipts with the actual receipts.
The interest of the public debt, funded and unfunded,
was 29,350,000/. The expenditure exceeded that

amount by a small sum, being 29,427,000/. The
charge upon the Consolidated Fund was estimated
at 2,400,000/. They amounted to 2,383,000/. The
expense of the Army is that upon which the main
increase has taken place ; from reasons which I

shall afterwards explain it is put down to the Army,
but covers a considerable branch of the expenditure
which h:is been applied to other purposes. The Army vote
was 6,322,000/. That was my estimate of last year.
The expenditure has amounted to the sum of 7,201,000/,
the cause of which I will explain as I pa-s on ; lam
dealing with the figures now. The Navy Estimates
amounted to 4,811,009/., and the expenditure to
4,690,0001. The estimate of the Ordnance was
1,546,0001., •and the expenditure 1,881,000/.
Therefore these three branches of the service,
the great services, would have stood thus :—Es-
timate, 15,226,9871.: Expenditure, 15,952,266/.
The whole estimated expenditure was 47,477,000,

_ .
and the actual expenditure, 48,263,000/., showing
an excess of expenditure of 785,556. Now,
Sir, if there be any gentleman who will do me
the honour of recollecting a statement which I had

,he honour of making, will bear in mind that

my statement of last year showed an apparent defi-
ciency of 216,0001. The actual deficiency produced
by the excess of expenditure on the sth of April,
in place of being 216,0001., amounted to 430,0001.
That is a difference of 224,000/.—(Sir Robert Peel
here made an observation across the table, which did
not reach us.)—That is according to the balance sheet
of April. Perhaps I may have made a mistake,
but the balance sheet of April, according to my anti-
cipation, would have shown a balance of 206,0001.
That anticipation was formed without taking into ac-
count the extraordinary circumstances that have arisen
in the course of the last year in Canada, to which I
shall call the attention of the House hereafter ;
and it is not a very unpardonable fault that in
the statement of the income as well as the ex-
penditure, there is a difference between the anticipation
made twelve months back, and the result, as now shown,
of no greater than 200,000/.—(Hear, hear.)—l cer-
tainly had feared the discrepancy would have been much
more, and I am gratified at finding it is so little. Sir,
before I go into the causes of this increased expenditure
I may be allowed to say a very few words on the
subject of the income. I shall not trouble the House
with details of the lesser branches of revenue, but
Honourable Members will expect from me some
account of the great branches of the revenue during
the last year in order to guide them in their calcula-
tions. I hold in my band a return from the Customs,
giving an account of the increase of the last year as
compared with the year preceding, and I find that in
the greater part of the importations—in many of the
must important of them—the increase has been,
if not very great, at least steady and progres-
sive. In the articles of sheeps' wool, cotton wool,
timber, wines, (except French wines, on which
there is a prohibitory duty, tobacco, tea, sugar, oil, and
in many branches of spices, the increase has been in
some cases 3,4, 5,6, and 7 per cent. And I may be al-
lowed to say, that in cotton wool the result is twenty-
two per cent. ; in sheeps' wool it is thirty-one per
cent.—(Hear, hear.) The various ratios of increase
are on paper before me ; but I do not wish at the pre-
sent time to detain the House by going into them. On

the other hand, in some of the Customs Duties there
has been a decrease. They are not articles of great
importance, nor is the decrease to any great extent ;
one is the article of raw thrown silk, upon which there
has been a reduction of about one-third per cent. On
tallow there has been a reduction of 9 per cent.
Toe receipts for the last year have been most satisfac-
tory to the public generally. With respect to the Excise,
in many of the most essential parts of the Excise, there
is a considerable increase shown in this year, and where
there is a diminution it is particularly to be attributed
to the seasons. For instance, there is a diminution in
hops of 15 per cent., and there is a diminution in malt of
five per cent. ; there is also a diminution in bricks to a cer-
tain extent ; in those branches of the glass trade in which
there has been no reduction of duty, there is a small
diminution ; in glass, especially in that branch of the
trade in which some 3 ears ago I had the honour of pro-
posing a reduction of the duty, in place of a fall there
has been a considerable increase—a progressive increase.
There is some falling off on crown glass, but in plate
glass there has been a very considerable increase. That
accounts in some measure for the decrease
on the others ; for no person can go through London
without observing that one of the increased luxuries of
the times is the increased use of plate glass : where
there has been a diminution in one branch of that trade,
there has been an increase in the other. In plate glass
there has been an increase of 1.5 per cent., in other
glass there has been an increase of 6 per cent. ; and
there has been an increase of 10 per cent. on the duties
on paper, in the course of this year, as compared with
the average of the three preceding years. On soap
there has been an increase—on spirits there has been
an increase ; in short, I think there is nothing
in the state of the Excise revenue, although the total
amount has been less than that at which I estimated it,
that can tor a moment create any distrust in the country.
The cause of the diminutions that have taken place is,
as I have already stated, to be attributed to the sea-
sons. I shall pass over this point, as I may have occa-
sion to advert to it on another occasion. The Post-
office has not produced quite so much as I had antici-
pated, but the reason was that the parties at the Trea-
sury have been straining every possible nerve to increase
the facilities of communication to the public.—( Hear,
hear.) That of course, as I observed with respect
to railroads, has been an increased charge on the
public, although the revenue has not proportionably
decreased. Sir, I hold in my hand an example of the
increase in the Post-office revenue contemporaneously
with these increased charges, and as a proof that the
revenue is increasing, 1 shall show the House the
revenue for the quarter ending the sth of April, and I

. -
wish the House to bear this in mind when it comes to
discuss the resolution which I shall have the honour to
propose. The return which I hold in my hand is
divided, but under the different heads of Post-office
revenue upon unpaid letters outward and paid inwards,
upon a sum of 120,0001. there is an increase of 9,000/.
upon unpaid letters inwards, paid outwards, upon 114,0001.
there is an increase of 12,000:. In bye and cross-road
letters, upon the sum of 167,000/., there is an increase
of 7,0001., Upon the gross revenue of Scotland, amount-
ing to 52,0001. there is an increase of 4,700/. Upon the
gross revenue of Ireland of 62,0001. there is an increase
of 2,400/. Upon the second post, amounting to 3,2001.
there is an increase of 2,8001. Upon the West Indian
and British North American Colonies, upon 18,000/.
there is an increase of 1,400/. In the foreign let-

ters and money received at the Foreign-office window,
upon a sum of 19,000/. there is an increase of 2,100/.,
and under the Miscellaneous head there is an increase
of 916/. Therefcre, upon the total amount of 558,000/.
there is an increase upon that quarter of 43,3821., being
about 9 per cent. ; for I have not calculated it. So
much fur the observations which have been made upon
the question of a gradual falling off in the Post-office reve-
nue, and it will show the House that where the nett revenue
falls off in postage it is in consequence of the enormously
increased expenditure to which the Post-office has been
put in affording increased accommodation to the public.
The increased charge, appear upon the head of the
Army, but it is but justice to my Noble Friend at the
head of the War Office to state that the great propor-
tion of the whole of this almost entirely refers to the
extraordinary expenses that have been incurred in
Canada. I shall show that just now ; but if I am
allowed, in order to make the statement intelligible
to gentlemen who are not conversant with the
mode of doing business, I should wish to explain
the manner in which this extra charge is put
to the Army account. Suppose it becomes neces-
sary in Canada to equip a steam-boat upon
one of the lakes, and that the Governor, upon his re-
sponsibility in a moment of exigency, directs that to
take place—l am merely taking this as an example—
he directs an issue out of the military chest, to defray
that service. A bill is drawn by the officer having
charge of the Commissariat upon the military chest.
The outlay which he has made, whether ultimately
upon an adjustment of the accounts, it belongs to one
service or the other, must necessarily, in the first in-
stance, be a charge as against the military expenditure,
the Commissariat having made the original advance,
It is only when the Commissariat accounts conic home,
and that they are revised and the accounts adjusted,
that means are affording of settling the apportionment
of these charges in a strictly correct manner. Now, Sir,
the expense which has been incurred in Canada, I shall en-
deavour to bring under the consideration of the House in a
clear and distinct manner, concealing nothing, keeping no-
thing back, not lowering the anticipation of future expense.
in the slightest degree, but giving an estimate of the ex-
pected expenses from the best authority we can com-
mand. I shall give the maximum of the expense to
which, under any circumstances, up to April 1840, this
country can be subjected. Sir, we have not full and com-
plete accounts from Canada to a later period than March
31, 1838 ; we have the complete and general accounts of
the Ordnance to a later period, but we have not the
Commissariat accounts in order to apportion the ex-
pense. That was one principal reason why I delayed
my statement so long, as I wished to be quite clear upon
the head of Canada, and the accounts only arrived
within these last three days. The extra expenditure
for Canada from the commencement—the extra expen-
diture for 1837 and 1838, was 245,012/. ; the extra ex-
penditure for the following year was 701,400/., making
a total of 947,000/., up to April, 1839. That sum com-
prises, I believe, every portion of extra expenditure
which has been incurred ; it does so to the best of the
information which we have. Towards that a vote was
taken of 500,000/. ; if, therefore, you deduct that sum
from 947,000/., it leaves to be provided for the sum of
447,000/. That disposes of the two years preceding the
present—that is it provides for all extra expenditure up
to April, 1839. Now, Sir, I come to the probable ex-
penditure for the present year for Canada. The total
estimate of the expenditure for the Canadas, and in-
cluding some for some of the other provinces, every-
thing that can possibly be wanted, is included in the
estimate ; and it is 1,101,000/. ; that is from
April, 1839 to April 1840. That is the whole
amount of the estimate, and there are 'some
items in it which have not yet been sanctioned—
that is the maximum to which the expenditure can ar-
rive. There has already been provided upon that, the
sum of 594,000/. and we are now dealing v.ith the
amount of extraordinary expenditure which is to be pro-
vided for; and if gentlemen will add that to the two
previous years' extraordinary expenditure, they will find
the total extraordinary expenditure of Canada, to be
1,530,0001. The amount the House is now called upon
to deal with, viz., the amount over and above the vote of
594,0001. which I exciude,is 1,530,000/. Undoubtedly
this is a very large sum, and it is to be regretted. It is
not my duty at present to enter into a discussion here,
of the Canadian policy, but I apprehend I shall have
the assent of every one present that in regard to the
state of Canada, both with respect to foreign aggression as
well as its internal tranquillity, to the fact, that
the Government would have been guilty of neglect of
their duty if in any part of the services which appeared
to Sir John Colborne and the other authorities there to
have required increasing, we had not supplied the ne-

cessary means. The House well knows what the fron-
tier is there. It well knows bow that frontier was ex-

posed, and Hon. Members will feel that the Govern-
ment have only done properly in doing that which was
necessary for its defence. Give up your colony if you
are not prepared to defend it ; but if you are prepared
to maintain it, adopt the most adequate means for its
maintenance. Now, I will state what the extent of the
Establishment is in Canada, and what are its provisions.
I have not the whole here ; but I have what will enable
the House to form a pretty accurate notion.
The Horse Guards returns, which do not comprehend
the Ordnance, show, in 1835, that the whole of the
British North American forces were 4,611 ; and that
is the ordinary force returned to me for the
subsequent three years. In January, 1838, it rose
to 5,089 ; in April. to 7,490 ; and in January, 1839,
the amount was 13,215 regulars, without including
artillery ; of which I have not the returns before me.
In addition to this, there were the irregular forces.
In Upper Canada, the " Sedentary Militia" amounted
to 21,000, and the volunteers to 3,675 ; and in Lower
Canada (we believe) the Local Militia amounted
to 8,228. To that, in addition to the increase of
the regular forces, there were 33,069 irregular troops
kept up in Canada.--(Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume.)
I hope that the House will not be diverted by the
cheer of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, from that
which is now before us—a mere matter of finance—
to political considerations.—(Hear, hear.) There has
been this large increase, both in the regular and the
irregular forces, which of course will create
a corresponding increase in the estimates. In
addition to this, there have been the expenses
of transports, arms, and accoutrements, &c., &c.,
all comprehended in this additional expenditure.—(Mr.
Goulburn, " Have you the returns ?") Those conversant
with military matters well know that extraordinary ex-
pences of this deicription are much more difficult to
calculate than the ordinary estimates : but anything
the Treasury can furnish shall he produced. In refe-
rence, Sir, to the great increase upon Canada, there is
a very consolatory contrast afforded by the state of 'lre-
land. When one looks back to the troubled times in
that country, we find that in 1797 there were 78,000
men under arms, at an expense of 2,600,000/. In 1798