The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-09 00:00:00

of the Bill, we are left only to conjecture—( Hear, Lear
Is
anything we hear in conversation, and all that
repeated in the public prints, as being the deliberate
opinions of certain Noble Lords, only involves the subject
in greater doubt and difficulty and uncertainty.—(Cheers.)
Under these circumstances I think it is my bounden duty
to proceed with the Bills without suspending their pro-
gress, and in the manner in which I originally proposed to
deal with them ; at the same time we should not be doing
Our duty to this House and to the constituency if we did
not warn the House of Lords that it is not possible that
there can be a satisfa.ctory adjustment of this question if
We did not endeavour while carrying on the public service
in such a manner that it did not suffer inconvenience or de-
triment, to take care that none of the essential powers and
privileges of this House should be departed from, which
house of Commons has given confidence to the Adminis-
tration, and which confidence we should be misusing if we
InerelY persisted in carrying Bills which were afterwards to-
tially defeated elsewhere.—( Cheers.) I believe the Right
:Jon. Gentleman (the Member for the University of Dub-
") stated, with respect to the tithe question, that it
was not essential that the Tithe Bill should be passed
during the present Session. I will not give an opi-
nion on this subject, but I believe such was the infe-
rence to he drawn from the speech 'of the Right Honour-
able gentleman.—(Hear, bear.) I must state further, that
In what I have hitherto explained to the House I have
not seemed to answer the Hon. and Learned Member for
I(ilknnY, or laid down any definite or clear of ac-
tier' ; but the Hon. and Learned Member mustcourse recollect
that in the very doubts that 1 have expressed as to the si-
tuation in which we stand, and as to the intentions of our
??Ponents, and I must also add the other House of Par-
thliament, would lead us to the conclusion that it is better
at we should wait and see whether we have mistaken
i_ne intentions of our own -opponents, instead of adopting
that decided course which it would afterwards be shown
!ere not justified in pursuing. We shall endeavour to come
In a settlement of these matters, and to come to that settle-
silent in such a manner as will produce benefit to Ireland,
and also to carry these measures in such a way that those
who representJhat country, and those who sympathise with
the feeling of Ireland, will be satisfied that some pro-
gress has been made during the present session. But at
Present I feel, after the vote of the other night, which
cannot be interpreted in a way which will lead us to any-
thing as to the course of proceeding of the other
trtiouse,.
.that it is essential at the present moment that all in
,ie majority of the House of Commons should remain
lir •
1111)
united together on the present occasion--(Cheers)
--and I think I may say that if the supporters of the pre-
Sent Administration continue their present confidence in it,
chat with such support, and with such a majority, the Mi-
nistry will not desert them.—(Loud cheers.) I feel, also,
that other considerations affecting this subject, of very
haevt. and paramount importance, but into which I will not
enter—considerations affecting the maintenance of the
authorityy of the two Houses of Parliament—l remain, as
ever have been, an adherent of the established form of
Government, which has recognised an hereditary House
of p.
lAment as part of the Constitution of the coun-
;osed re,
--(Rear, hear.) From that opinion I am not dis-
ton to depart , and I feel convinced—such is my
e
-(,ence in the excellence of the British C:onsti-
n--such is my confidence in the temper which has
tarried us hitherto through whatever dangers and difficul-
Leties
we have had to contend with—that there will at last
an agreement with respect to these Bills, as there has
en before when differences have arisen. Under these cir-
elllnst •I, i ,
ances, think that the Constitution ought not to be
lY parted with, and that no misunderstanding as to the
Postponement the delay, or the retarding these measures,
reght to be considered an obstacle to the maintenance of
wtat Constitution, and to its being continued on a basis of
ounY and coneord.—(Cheers.) With these opinions, and
"le expressing any doubts as to coming to any settle-
-9t on the Corporation or Tithe questions, I must con-
ealune, at the same time, with stating, that I am convinced
at there is nothing in the Constitution of this House, or the
her House of Parliament,which could finally prevent such a
set
tlesnent
; and therefore it would be better that, instead of
the determination
he being left to the chances of collision, or to
tue winds of fortune, that we should maintain that consti-
te
tution which has hitherto worked with such admirable a-
f t. and which is still capable of producing most admirable
'fl'its both to England and Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Ur. HUME was satisfied - that the conclusion of the
Noblefacts
. Lord's speech was directly at variance with the
2ets %thief' be had stated in the course of it. He had no
doubt. however, but that Ministers would do their duty,
an
Ird stand by the House now they saw the clear course be-
t
,`,e them. (Cheers.) That House, at the early part of
the session, passed a Bill which had for its object the este-
Mishtnent•o'
f liberal local bodies over Ireland. The cause
of Ireland seemed, however, to be unworthy of the at-
(tention' of the other House, at least till the 9th of June.—
Hear, hear, hear.) He wished the Noble Lord to state
Z ,Ilether he intended to carry the Church-rates Bill and
Lie other measures before the House, as fast as possible,
:tand send them Op to the House of Lords, or whether he
ended to postpone them until the 9th of June `t It ap-
peared to him to be trifling with the feelings of the country
not
to state distinctly what course the Government in.-
tended to take to prevent the stoppage of the public busi-
-I(;3,_s• two Houses must be placed on a footing
""rmony to carry on the legislation for the country. He
,11,ew that the Noble Lord was afraid of the subject of the
-el °llll of the Lords, The Noble Lord said that he was
ens,
e, °us to adhere to the Constitution, which had hitherto
1-.4ked so well ; had that been the case for the two last
tents'`( Hear, hear)—during which period all the measures
b,2 nP•by that House have been mutilated or broken in
gee ? He wished to have a distinct answer from the Noble
he°rd
n as to the course he intended to pursue, as to whether
sati'stieaot to press the measures before the House. He was
other if the obstacles were found to remain with the
le 'r douse' the country would no longer suffer it, but
assist 4 away the impediments in its way, and would
he., the Government in applying a remedy.—(Hear,
th;u.) They had arrited at a period when there was a
14ee stoppage of legislation, and it was necessary that
ProYsees t
(iinnuld have some understanding as to their future
Lord gs.
hin„ ,r JOHN RUSSELL had thought he had made
int,:A" understood, but he begged at once to state that he
the d, with as little delay as possible, to proceed with
snleasures before the House.
so
ae IL' PEEL—I am extremely sorry that a discussion
Haveale up with party feeling and party interest should
wish tren place on the question of a poor-law. I greatly
rata 'e Hon. Gentleman, however legitimate his question
lue, had taken some other occasion for putting it, for
olisfee that,
thStusion if we once permit party feeling to mingle in the
of a poor-law for Ireland, it will greatly prejudice
or _ °iscussion, and materially tend to discourage the hope
10014, satisfactory completion of a measure which, as it is, is
ler (H(Heed upon with very considerable doubt and anxiety.—
ear hear) As the Noble Lord has made distinct re•
teue,bee to me, I find it necessary, not adopting a different
164:Per from that in which the Noble Lord spoke, to say
dining on this subject. I understand' from the Noble
i'c'rd that it is his intention to proceed with those mea-
sets,
which were indicated in his Majesty's speech from the
geiThen as affecting the internal peace and tranquillity of
and, with the consideration, namely, of the Poor-law
"1, and the question of Irish tithes. I rejoice to hear
• t'4t such Is the Noble Lord's determination, and I regard
„_4B a much more prudent decision than the one I under-
17'nd him to indicate on Friday last of a contrary descrip-
v!'n.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord complains of
1" course taken by the House of Lords on the subject of the
4 sr'sh Municipal Corporation Bill. lam bound to say that
. •
s.think that the course of the House of Lords is perfectly
,h"sistent with justice and good sense.—(Loud Opposition
tv„T;'•) I can say this with perfect truth, because the
thfs"le Lord will do me the justice to remember that when
ti 'natter was first brought under the consideration of this
;11112:1: I expressed an anxious wish that before we came to
iondeeision on the Corporation question we might first
un utter the other two matters.—( Hear.) I said this with
whatract view of the question,
:lad without any reference
lever to the course the House of Lords might think
leirlZto adopt.—(Hear hear.) I thought it of the utmost
the that before we pronounced our final opinion on
aloe Irish, question we should be in full posses-
eoerse the intentions of Government, and the probable
(pursue the House of Commons would be called upon to
Hear "'reference to Irish tithes and Irish Poor-laws.—
I'erso I think the Hon. and Learned Member for Tip-
linsl I must admit it is perfectly consistent in the Peers to
fur connection between questions of this kind,
self said'e very speech which he has just delivered he him-
tied iri that he. thou ht the question; of Irish Poor-laws
tested tithe So intimately connected together that lie pro-
euseqatinst the consideration of the Poor-laws until the
speetiw''s Pitt in full possession of the Ministerial measure
Igo" 4 Irish Tithes.--(Hear, hear.) For, said the
Irel.4!'
.Learned Gentleman, " Tithe in many parts of
tvif4h-es t'.Barrear for three ears, and at Christmas next
l'tf any Cul Years in arrear ; before you impose a new rate
°"w wilinu in Ireland for the relief of the poor, let me
to ti, is the final settlement you propose to make as
the
tiHon. in that country." Now, if it be the view of
Le s arld Learned Gentleman that two out of these
unti.4(4 I attest.
lieep I°lls are so intimately connected together, that
, ines
th 114 ""u opinion on an Irish Poor-rate
pronouncing anof
e s ascertained the feelings of Government and ease use •as
tea the to
'e ex • Irish Tithe, how can he deny to other
f is f ercise of that judgment which he not only
sukt tile, hmself, but pronounces ; or how could in re-
gllve that the
. right of thinking that the three questions
there
intimate connection with each other which he
aaesrefore, Tits to exist between two of the three `e If,
h_q wanted any vindication of the reasonableness
°use 1" tile course which has been pursued by the
"L'°4le, fiod it 4414issi" Cif

'--ai

Honourable and Learned Msrnber.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Honourable Member for Middlesex seems to
think that there is something in the course taken by the
House of Lords which is disrespectful to the House of
Commons.—(Hear, hear.) I beg to say I myself have
that feeling for the honour of a House of which I have
been so long a Member, and by which I have been received
with only too much of favour. I have that deep in-
terest in its honour and character that nothing would in•
duce me to acquiesce in any course which I thought dis•
respectful to this House—( Hear, hear, hear)—but I hug
the Hon. Member to call to mind that it was distinctly in-
timated to the House of Lords in the speech from the
throne that in the course of the present session their atten-
ton would be drawn to " three measures intimately con-
nected with the tranquillity and welfsre of Ireland," and
that on the invitation of the Ministry their Lordships pre-
sented an address to the King, in which they expressed
a hope that they might be able to make some arrange-
ments conducive to the welfare and peace of Ireland, and
pledging themselves to an early consideration of the three
measures which were specified by Ministers in the speech
from the throne. If, therefore, the Lords concur with
the Commons in the principle that there is an intimate union
between these questions without any reference to the pro-
ceedings of the House of Commons, have not their Lord-
ships had authoritative and indisputable declarations made
to them that these three measures would be presented for
their, consideration, and if they think them so intimately
connected, can any thing be more natural or reasonable than
that they should desire to postpone the consideration of one
Bill until they know on what principle the others are
founded?—(Hear.) I before stated to the Noble Lord, and
with perfect truth, that if the order of these measures had
been reversed—if he had perfected the Poor-law Bill and
settled the tithe question, I should then, on the discussion
on the Corporation Bill, have frankly stated the connected
view which I took of all the measures ; but as things have
been arranged, the Municipal Bill came in this House to
its third reading before any thing was known as to either
of the other measures. The Noble Lord seemed to ap-
prehend the possibility that in the course now taken some
advantage is intended to be laid hold of of this kind, that
one Bill will be passed into a law and the other inde-
finitely postponed ; for instance, that a Tithe Bill rendered
satisfactory to the House of Lords will be passed, and that
then the Municipal Bill will be thrown . overboard.—
(Hear.) Now, this result would be altogether a matter
of impossibility unless this House were a consenting
party ; for whatever the scheme of adjustment adopted
by the House of Lords as satisfactory to them, this
House is of course in no way called upon to accept it ; and,
therefore, the danger which the Noble Lord apprehends as
possible is altogether out of the question. I will not enter
further into the consideration of these questions, being most
unwilling that anything of party asperity should connect it-
self with the discussion of a poor-law. I will merely re-
peat, that as reference was made to me by the Noble Lord,
as to the course of the House of Lords, I felt hound to
express my entire acquiescence in that course—(Cheers)
—my conviction that it was perfectly consistent with
justice and equity to ask to see all these measures be-
fore it considered the details of one of them—( Hear,
hear)—my conviction, further, that had any other course
been followed by the House of Lords, if they had at once
proceeded
to consider the details of the Corporntion Bill,
such a course would not have facilitated an amicable settle-
ment of the questions, but would, on the contrary, more
probably have led to their indefinite postponement—( Hear)
—and lastly, my conviction that in the course so adopted
there could have been no intention to offer disrespect to
the House of Commons.—(Cheers.) I believe that no
such disrespect was intended ; the proceedings of the House
of Lords had no necessary reference to any inconsistent
proceedings of the House of Commons ; their Lordships
themselves declared, in their answer to the speech from the
throne, that they would give full consideration to each of
the three measures that speech pointed out, in reference to
Ireland ; and feeling as they did the intimate connection
between the three subjects, it was impossible for them fully
to consider the one without being in possession of the
principles on which the other two were founded.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
not help thinking there were some fallacies, and those of no
ordinary importance, in the statement of the Right Hon.
Baronet.—(Hear, hear.) Whenever the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman or the other Hon. Gentlemen who differed with
Ministers on the essential principles on which the Govern-
ment of the country, and more especially the government
of Ireland, was to be carried on, whenever the Right Hon.
and Hon. Gentlemen appeared disposed to apply to autho-
rities of the kind just invoked by the Right Hon. Baronet
ie support of their arguments, he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) was always disposed to suspect that there
lurked some fallacy which they sought to impose upon the
House in borrowed arguments. Thus it appeared to him
that the Right Hon. Baronet, in attempting to prop up his
arguments by illustrations drawn from the statement of the
Hon. and Learned Member referred to, manifestly showed
that he had no very strong case of his own to rely upon.
What did the borrowed argument of the Right 11 on. Ba-
ronet prove 7 What was it to the purpose ? Nothing.
That a member of their own House, conceiving a connec-
tion to subsist between several measures before the House,
should ask .to see them in a combined form before he formed
his judgment on one or all of them, was perfectly consistent
with the rules and forms of Parliament, and was no violation
of the Constitution, receiving no influence whereby the
House should seek by its proceedings to follow the proceed-
ings in another._( Hear.) But the moment such an argu-
ment was raised elsewhere, it became a very different mat-
ter._( Hear.) It raised a principle for which those who
raised it must hold themselves deeply responsible. It raised
a principle which might be raised, and he hoped justly, in
the present instance, only by inference ; but whenever it
was raised actually and positively by design, and with a
view to effect a given purpose, it could never be so raised
without great danger to the Constitution.—( Hear.) The
argument of the Right lion. Baronet as to the propriety
of a Member of that House demanding to see all these
three measures before he decided upon one of them,
was correct enough, as asserting the constitutional
rights of a member of one branch of the Legislature
in the Chamber to which he belonged, but it was
totally inapplicable if raised in a question between the two
branches of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) lie would
even assort the right to free and independent action of both
Houses of Parliament, but, at the same time, he would
resist any attempt on the part of either to overawe or con-
trol the other, tte an attempt most dangerous to the Con-
stitution. He did not for a moment mean to draw from
the course stated to have been taken by the other House,
any infereneo that its intention was to overawe and control
the House of Commoose all he had a right to know of the
matter was the statement on the Journals of that House,
that the measure in question lid been postponed ; and he
was willing to imagine that this postponement of the Bill
by the other House was not for the purpose of depriving
the country of the benefits which Government anticipated
from the passing of the measure.—(Hear, hear.) if it
were probable that any Bill had been delayed in the other
House, for the purpose of holding out to the House of
Commons either a threat or an inducement to take a parti-
cular line in reference to other Bills p-nding befOre it, the
individuals who took such a course in the other House were
indeed incurring an awful responsibility--.-(Hear, hear)—
but as he saw nothing of this declared on the Journals of
the House of Lords, ho could not in justice impute to any
Members of that body any such det:ie,n, If such were •
the design of any Members of the Upper House, they
might rest assured that it would be entirely defeated by the
spirit and resolution of the Representatives of the people.
—(Loud cheers.) The two branches of the Legislature
were co-ordinate, but they were not co-equal, and this
would manifestly appear were anything in the shape of'
a conflict to occur.—(Loud cheering.) It was the House
of Commons which was in possession of measures without
which the public service could not for a week be carried on.
—(Hear.) With the postponement of the measure to the
9th of June, the House of Commons had nothing to do.
It was for the House of Commons zealously to persevere
in is duty ; carry on the business to which it pledged i'e
self in the commencement of the Session ; to discharge its
functions faithfully ; and, having done this, the House of
Commons would stand firm in the affections and confidence
of the people of England.—( Hear.) Whether tie House
of Lords was ia the wrong or no, it was for the House of
Commons to keep itself hi the right.— (Hear.) Whatever
party in the country put itself in the wrong in the eyt s
of the people, that party would be sure to be the sufferer.—
(Cheers.) Supposing fora moment the case to be that
the House of Lords had, in the views of some partios, put
itself in an inconvenient position in reference to the House
of Commons, it was the duty of the House of Co.nmons
to persevere in the eight, by calmness and moderation, and
by undeviating adherence to the principle of serving the
peblic interests, by being swayed by no party views or
party animosities one point beyond the track in which
they would have walked if this occurrence had never
intervened. The Right Hon. Baronet had implied that
the Ministry had changed their minds on the subject since
Friday. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could as-
sure the Right Hon. Baronet he was wistaken in this re-
spect. The Ministry were taking precisely the
which they had maked out for themselve in thee" firstrse
inst„co, They made no interruption in their arrange-
tnents for conducting the public business. They left to
the other House its full right to judge of all the molt-
sure; tpnt up to The sotlheeatnldtffisoins:ppleososbibj
electexotfenitinthle
sere was to 'Garry Into effect the largest measure of national
nprol em ant—to promote ta
happiness and prosperity of the pooplo,eaille4r2)
conelus;cio he might observe, that there was
one observa.
tins of the Right (lentleman in which he fully con-
curred, in -approaching the most 1144,74;5 pull most difficult
duty ever i;pposed on men, that on which a greater mac,,
of fpisery or 4appippg never depended, it Was enentio