The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-09 00:00:00

but upon the party who challenges it. If that be so, it
appears to me that it would he better if we had no Com-
mittee at all.—(Hear, hear.) If I may speak for myself,
and it may be presumed that I have as much curiosity
upon the subject as any other Member of the House—
apart from the ungraciousness of the office—it would be far
from me—l should shrink from it as a duty that did not
belong to me, to ransack the claims, and to enter into any
evidence as to the title which these persons have to the
pensions which have been allotted to them.—(Hear, hear.)
I think they ought to be invited, or rather required, in terms,
of course, as delicate and respectful as possible, to state the
grounds upon which their claims are rested.—(Hear, bear,
hear.) Let the request he delivered by private hand,
or by some livried attendant of the Court. Do it
with all the respect, all the deference to which these ;:igh
personages are entitled ; but call upon them in some way to
state the grounds on which the grant was made to them, whe-
ther it was granted to them individually, for services ren-
dered, and if so, request them to revert to that service and
state its nature.—( Hear, hear.) And if the grants have been
made for services not rendered by themselves, but by some
near relative, surely there is not so much inherent injustice in
these pensioners as to prevent them from calling to mind those
virtues of their ancestors to which they are indebted ;or their
present pay.—( Cheers.) And if it should happen that some
individuals were placed upon the list in past times solely and
exclusively upon the ground of charity—if it should be found
that the circumstances which justified the original grant, un-
fortunately for the individual, still continue—and if it should
further appear that the grantee has nothing else whereupon
to exist—has no near relative, no father, no mother of title
and affluence—no brothers, no sisters rolling in wealth, boast-
ful of their titles, and proud of their possessions—if he should
appear to be one of the deserted of mankind, scarcely
knowing his origin, disinclined to say what he believes of
it, having no connections that can be called legitimate—
(Laughter)—if upon the list there be found any unfortunate
wanderers of this kind, though there may be some extraordi-
nary evidences in their features to tell the tale of their origin—
(Laughter and cheers)—yet I for one would say, " Pity their
sorrows and continue them upon the Pension List. "—(Loud
cheers.) When I see the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) oppo-
site, who, of course, has a right to be proud of his title and
property, I am a little surprised that he has not called toge-
ther men like himself for the purpose of looking over this
list, and of providing a fund from their own resources for the
support and maintenance of their own poor relatives.—( Loud
cheering.) Allow me to tell the Noble Lord that hereditary
sneers are not natural eloquence—(Cheering)—and that
whatever in private life may be our differences in point of rank
and fortune, we are all equals here as Representatives of the
People.--( Continued cheering.) Moreover, the Noble Lord
will allow me to tell him that there arc examples, though of
a lowly kind, and amongst a despised class, which it would be
no discredit for him to imitate.—(Cheers.) Are there not
Funds of every kind—Trades' Funds, Widows' Funds, Fun is
of every variety—to aid and support mankind from the cradle
to the tomb, all of which have their rise and owe to their con-
tinuance to the honourable and independent spirit which ac-
tuates the humbler classes, and renders them disdainful of deriv-
ing assistance from any other than their own resources ? Have not
these funds been sanctioned and protected by Acts of Parliament?
Are there not upwards of 5,000 of them in the country ? Is
it not the object of your boasted Poor-law Amendment Act
to foster and encourage them ?—(Cheers. ) Allow me, then,
to tell the Noble Lord that he may learn something from " the
simple annals of the poor."—(Great cheering.) 1 was about
to state, that in dissecting this list I can suppose, without
knowing it, that there may be persons upon it whose merits
justified the grant ; and though their fortunes might be
great at the time that they received the grant, and may be
greatly improved since, yet it may be possible that their
services were such as deserved some mark of Royal favour,
surpassing in their estimation all the value of mere pounds,
shillings, and pence.—(Hear, hear.) If there be any such,
I would continue them upon the list.—(Cheers.) But, then,
I say, let these remarkable cases—let these bright examples
be plucked from the scenes of obloquy and filth by which
they are surrounded, so that they may stand forth an their
original purity, recommended by the circumstances which
justified the grant at the time it was made, and which
no age nor years have been able to tarnish.—(Cheers.)
Do you wish to protect that class from inquiry ?—( Hear,
hear.) Are you afraid, when the Report of the Committee
shall be made, that the mass of the people, and especially the
despised poor, will fail to recognize those cases of real merit
which at wide intervals may be found upon the list? Do
not deceive yourselves—do not misunderstand the poor of
England : they would be the first to denounce any act of an
unjust or ungenerous kind.--(Cheers.) If there be any case,
any circumstance that can be stated—any story, even, that
can be exaggerated in favo'sr of any one of these pensioners,
the best way of protecting them will be not to attempt to
shield them under the pretence and artifice of an amendment,
but by an appeal to the sympathy and generous feeling of the
people of this country.—( Cheers ) I will presume that-there
are persons upon the List who have been placed there not in
consequence of any service immediately rendered by them—
not in consequence of any of those influences to which I will
not now refer, but in consequence of their poverty. If their
poverty be not exaggerated by them, I should not be the in-
dividual to apply a stern rule to cases of that kind.--( Hear,
hear.) Although there has been an obvious desire to avoid
the parity of the Poor-law Amendment Act with this inquiry,
yet I maintain that it all the arguments aka-aced by the
Right Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) had been ad-
duced before the passing of the Act, the Act itself would
have obliterated all the pretensions that aro made to these
pensions. For what is the principle upon which the Poor-
law Act proceeds ? That no man or woman shall be al-
lowed to live upon the labours of others, where strength or
years enable them to labour for themselves—(Cheers)—or
whose relations are in a condition to extend to them that
support which nature requires and kind and proper feelings
prompt. —(Cheers.) Upon what principle, then, do those
gentlemen who are so anxious to maintain these pensions—l
will not say who are benefited by them—upon what principle
do you defend them? I ask you to apply the same rule to
these State pensioners that you apply to your parochial pen-
sioners.—( Cheers.) And here let me advert to a remark
rude by the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir R. Peel.) He
sacs, looking over this List I see there have been eleven Prime
Ministers, eight of whom have been gathered to their finalaccomit, three of whom only remaine ill you call upon a per-
son who had the grant of an annuity, or a pension, made to
him during the life of either of the eight Ministers who have
ceased to exist, to explain and justify the circumstances of that
grant ?—', Hear, hear.) Now let us carry this analogy a
little further. A poor woman who has been receiving 2s. a
week shall be told by the guardians that she can no longer
have this relief, and is asked under what circumstances it was
originally granted to her ? " Oh," says she, "it was granted
to me twciey years ago by old Brown, the Churchwarden.
--(Laughter and cheers.) I was at his funeral twenty years
ago. Lord love you, do not deprive me of it."—( Cheers.)
What do the Guardians say to this ? " You were very
lucky in having such a Churchwarden as Mr. Brown ; there
is a different race now—( Great laughter and cheering) ;—we
must have some little conversation with you, my good old
lady ; you look strong and hearty ; can't you go out to chair-
ing ?"—" Why," says she, " I do sometimes go out a charing,
now and then I get sixpence a day, and once or twice I have
got a " Don't you think if you were to go a little
more about the parish you could contrive to get more ? You
must learn to be more active, to be more industrious ; you
must seek to maintain yourself; our anxiety is to infuse into
your mind the moral, the high sense of the eternal principles
of juetice—(Loud and long-continued cheering); but you
say that you are frequently afflicted, and that you find it im-
possible, except when the weather is very fine, to go out
charing even for the few times you speak of. Have you not
got a son or a daughter ?"—" Ycs, thank God," says the
poor old creature, " I have a son and a daughter ?" " Are
they your own children ?"—(That is a question I shall not
put in the Committee.)--(Great laughter and cheering.)
" Are they your own ?"—" Lord, love you, Sir, whose do you
think they are ?" " Well, then, what is your son ?"—" Oh,
he is a boy, and as good a boy, though I say it, as any mother
ever bad." " And what does he earn?"—" Fifteen shillings
a week." " And what does your daughter do?"—" She is
married." " Has she any children e"—" Yes ; two pretty
babes." " And what is her husband ?"—" A journeyman car-
penter ?" " And what does he earn ?"—" Why, when he is
at full work, he earns a matter of twenty-five shillings a week."
"Then," exclaims the indignant Guardian, with wonder in his
eye and stern displeasure on his brow, " why, my good woman,
how can you have the impudence to come here—(Loud and
long-continued cheering)—how can you have the impudence to
come here and ask for the continuance of the relief that old
Brown gave you, when you have a boy and a girl of whom
you are so justly proud, the one earning 15s. a-week, and the
other having a husband who gets 255. a-week ? Get away,
you hussey I"—(Great cheering.) Such would be the predi-
cament of many of these pensioners if we were to in.
quire into the real circumstances of their case.—( !leer, hear,
hear.) I will venture to say that there are many men and
women upon this List who, if asked as to their relatives, and
what was meant by their having attached to their names the
appellations of " Honourable " and " Right Honourable," of
Lady," " Dowager," and " Dame," after recovering fromthe first surprise occasioned by the impudence of the in-
quiry, would tell you that they had a long line of ancestry,
who bad their origin with the Piantagenets, and those who
came over from " Facry land."—( Great laughter and cheer-
ing.) Yes, they would tell you that there was no monarch,
from Harold to the present day, with whom they were not in
some way connected.—( Cheers.) Some of them would be
so proud of their superior blood—of having in their veins none
but the best blood—that I very much doubt whether they
would not be disposed to carry their pretensions even further
than the ancient and noble house of Stanley.—(General
cheering.) And if you inquire further—if you sty to these
persons, " If such be your connections, while their titles live,
have they survived their inheritances ?" what would be the
reply? Assuming the attitude, and speaking in the tones of
injured dignity, they would say, " No, Sir, the Noble Lord,
or the Noble Duke, who is my relation, is rolling in wealth,
has the largest estates in the county in which I dwell, corn.
mands the representation of that county, and has two Con-
servatives at this time in the House of Commons."—(Great
cheering.) Are we, then, to be told by those who passed
the Poor-law Amendment Act, to improve the condition and
give a high moral tone to the labouring community—( Great
cheering)—are we to be told that the only example you are
prepared to set to the humbler classes, for whose welfare, mo-
ral and physical, you have so carefully, so wisely, so generously
provided—( Cheers)—are we to be told, I say, that the only
example you are prepared to set them of your virtue and sin-
cerity, is to make them (the poor and humble) labour on for
the maintenance and support of these your relatives and friends.
—(Cheers.) lam not aware that anything more need be said
upon the subject. Undoubtedly many suggestions occur to my
mind; but having frequently under the indulgence of the
House, been permitted to express my views upon this interest.