The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-18 00:00:00

their minds was to be rejected. Its criminal jurisdiction
was most anomalous, For instance, it was made a crime
for any one not to observe the fasts of Lent, while har
dotted criminals, the perpetrators as it might be of half a
dozen murders, instead of receiving the punishment due
to their crimes, as in other countries, were permitted to
live on as hopeful subjects for reformation. Nothing in
Europe s as more unenlightened than the administration
of criminal justice by the Papal Government, and it was
quite impossible that that Government could be assimi.
lated to the Government of other countries. A. popula-
tion desirous of being united to another Government was
kept down by the French troops, and most certainly it was
not a politic action so to-keep them down. The Roman
people desired to join themselves to another government,
there was nothing they desired so much ; and as soon as
the French people were of opinion that justice had not been
done to the Italians, he believed that the Emperor, as he
was the last to adopt the policy of occupation, would be the
first to give effect to the views of his people. Why it was
that the Pope spoke to Mr. Odo Russell about taking re•
fuge on British territory, he could not say; but certain it
was that in July last he did send for him, and spoke to him
at great length upon the state of Europe. He referred to
the progress made by Garibaldi, and he then pointedly
asked him whether, if he took refuge on British territory,
he would be sure of a welcome. Themohle marquis thought
it great presumption in him that he gave an answer to that
question ; but it seemed to him that, taking into account
the character of the Pope, and the fact that he felt bound,
by the dictates of conscience, not to accede b the reforms
which had been called far, it certainly was not wrong to
offer the Pope a safe asylum; and, although the Pope
had declined to accept that asylum at that moment, he
nevertheless expressed his grateful acknowledgments for
the offer which had been made to him. In conclusion he
would only observe that he felt convinced it would be both
for the advantage of Italy and of Rome itself if Rome were
declared the capital of the Italian Kingdom. (Cheers.)

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH believed that no prac-
tical advantage could accrue from recurring to events
thirteen or fourteen years back. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.)
He must, however, express the great gratification which he
felt at observing the conduct of the really Italian adminis-
tration recently appointed by the King of Italy, in de-
clining at the present moment to enter into any nego-
tiation respecting the Roman question. (Hear, hear.)
In adopting that policy they had acted with a true sense
of the dignity of the country they represent; and, almost
for the first time, they had shown that thorough inde-
pendence of conduct upon which Italy must depend for
the respect and consich ration of other nations. (Hear, hear.)
It had been asserted in the French Chambers recently that
at Turin men no longer talked of Rome. But though they
did not talk of Rome they thought of Rome. (Hear, hear.)
.A nd instead of endeavouring by negotiations with the Em-
peror of the French to accomplish their objects, let the Ita-
lians trust for the present to giving their country a good
government and making it strong in arms. Those objects
attained, it would be impossible for the whole of Europe
not to combine for the accomplishment of the grand object
which Italy had before it. (Hear, hear.) The French Em-
peror was too sagacious, too able a man not to feel that he
must yet consummate the great work which he had com-
menced. By the establishment in the south of a great con-
stitutional kingdom he would be conducing more than by
any other means to the future tranquillity of the European
continent. (Hear, hear.) At the same time they must not
forget that it was of the highest importance, not only to
every Catholic Government, but to every Government
which ruled over Catholic subjects, that the Pope should
be restored to a real independence. That ought to be a
universal object. The time must come when the occupa-
tion of Rome by French troops must cease. It was con-
trary to the interests of France and to the interests of Eu-
rope. And that which might now for a time be postponed
on account of what was termed the Catholic feeling of
France, would ultimately be called for by the universal
feeling of the Catholics throughout the world. He looked
forward to the time when the Pope, restored.to a real inde-
pendence, might exercise his authority in the Vatican,
while the Parliament of free Italy conducted its delibera-
tions in the Capitol. (Loud cheers.)
After some observations from the Marquis of NOR.-
MANBY, in reply,

The discussion ceased.
THE TICKET-OF-LEAVE SYSTEM.

Earl DUDLEY gave notice of a question on this subject
for Thursday next.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening.

The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.

NEW MEMBER—DEVONPORT.
Mr.W. B. FEBRAND took the oaths and his seat for De

vonport. The hon. member was introduced by Lord John
Manners and Omani Peel. The hon. member was re.
ceived with loud cheers from the Opposition.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a second time :—Alyth
Railway—Andover and Redbridge Railway—Cleeve and
Evesham Road—Farnborough and Aldershot Railway—
Great North of Scotland Rai:way—Great Western and
West Midland Railways Amalgamation—Great Western,
West Midland, and South Wales Railway Companies
Amalgamation—Herne Bay and Canterbury Junction—
Lancaster Canal and London and North-Western Railway
—Mersey Docks and Harbour Board—Milford Railway—
Mistley, Thorpe, and Walton Railway—Ogmore Valley
Railways—Vale of Neath Railway—Furness Railway
Company and Barrow Harbour Commissioners.
LIVERPOOL LICENSING BILL.

Lord FERMOY moved that this bill be read a second
time that day six months, on the ground that it would in-
troduce by a private bill an entirely new mode of licens-
ing for a single town in the empire. If a change
were required in the present form of licensing
it should not be effected by a private bill, but
by a measure brought forward un the authority of the
Government, Free trade ought not to be introduced into
the business of licensing ; to magistrates ought to be dele-
gated, as now, the power of adjudicating upon the proper
parties to be intrusted with licenses. In Liverpool the
question of licensing was made a party question, but that
was no reason the house should be called to favour one set
of partisans.
The motion having been seconded,

Mr. HORSFALL said the bill did not arise from any
party feeling in Liverpool. One set of the magistrates were
in favour of a great extension of licenses, whilst another
considered that they should be materially restricted. The
powers sought by this bill were exceedingly wholesome.
Persons only of good character and able to give secu•
rity for their good conduet by bond, and rated to
the poor at £5O, would be panted licenses. Different
localities required different modes of dealing in this re-
gard. For instance, Liverpool had 1,540 licensed h,uses,
whilst Manchester, with a larger population, had only
600. The bill was ;framed in accordance with the re-
port of the house of last session. He believed only one
petition had been presented against the bill, and he believed
that was simply in favour of closing publichouses on the
Sabbath. He should support the second reading of the
bill.
Mr. AYRTON considered that the bill ought not to have
been introduced as a private bill, and in that shape ought
ought not to be proceeded with any further. As the bill
would affect the law and the revenue, he should be glad to
know who was responsible for it ? It appeared merely to
be based on a petition from Mr. Lamb and others, who did
not venture to give their names and addresses. There was no
valid reason why the law should be altered to favour Liver-
pool alone, (Divide divide.) It was not a bill to be quietly
settled by a committee of five members up stairs.
Mr. MASSEY explained that by some ancient statutes
of the house some bills affecting trade were allowed to be
introduced as private bills, and this bill before the house
was introduced in accordance with these rules which were
framed about 200 years ago, before private bills were
known to the house. The bill was based on the report of
the committee of this house on licensing ; and
he believed was approved of by the magistrates of Liver-
pool. (No, no.) Liverpool possessed half a million of in-
habitants, and probably was entitled to exceptional legisla-
tion in regard to a matter of this kind, which, after all, was
a mere matter of police. _ . .

Mr. HARDY opposed the bill, considering that it ought
never to have been introduced as a private bill, but before
the house, and discussed clause by clause. (Hear, hear.)
If this plan of introducing private.bills were made a prece-
dent, the Government might avail themselves of it to pass
several bills that ought not to be treated otherwise than as
public bills. If this bill were passed, the Government
ought to adopt a general bill for the whole country.

Mr. WILLIAMS opposed the bill.
Mr. J. EWART said the magistrates of Liverpool were
in favour of the bill.

Sir G. GREY supported the bill. It was essentially con-.

nected with the police operations. That was the principal
element they had to consider. In all such matters the
house should not lose sight of this—that the public morality
was a paramount question. A bill adapted for a
large locality might not suit the whole country.
The bill ought to be sent to a committee to be
carefully investigated and then subsequently discussed by
the whole house. 11. e hoped the house would not stop the
bill at this stage.

The CHANCELLOR of theakEXCHEQUER con-
sidered that it would be well to experiment of this
bill so far as Liverpool was coneerenaed order to see
hole country.
whether its provisions were adaptable toZhien
The present system of licensing at Liverpeevi
exceed-
ingly anomalous, and required material, amend:"
Mr. WALPOLE said the committee referredetnoth
re-
ported in favour of a general system of licensing kat': the
whole country, and considered that an exception ought not
to be made in favour of Liverpool. He understood that the
bill was not promoted by the magistrates, but by the pub-
licans of Liverpool.
Mr. HENLEY should vote against the bill, because it
was exceptional. If a good bill could be devised he saw no
reason why it should not be applied to the whole country.
The home then divided, when the numbers were—
For the second reading lOB
Against it
Majority against 124
the second reading —l6
The bill was therefore lost.
SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
Sir J. DUKE moved the second reading of this bill,
Mr. DODSON opposed the bill, because it would not