The Sun.
London, England, 1801-05-20 00:00:00

IV

7,pe mission o ertmes,
it therefore follow- that--,he could get rid of it
himself ? A matt might' get rid of his- life- by
the commission of crimes, but' would he be justified
in taking-away his own life. by, suicide-? It ap-
peared to him, that Holy Orders were, in many re.
spats like marriage, which was also a Sacrament,.
and ceased to-be so at the Reformation ; but it did
not then become a mere civil coutrad which Might
be put an end to. by the Foment of the parties.—
Marriages were now' by the Law of the Land in-
dissoluble even in cases 'of adultery, though in par-
ticular cases _the Legislature might interfere. It
was formerly. held, that Minors might contra 4 mar-

.riage without the consent of their parents or guar-
dians-, . because it was considered as a religious cert.
• ,
IttortY, and that continued to be the Law of the
,Land.until the Marriage.Aa ; but even that merely
attended to marriage by. licence, for as to marriage
•by banns, the: Law remained. as before. It appear_
ed to him: that the Hon. Gentleman confounded two
things Which were very distinct, .the possession of
• ilie.clerical.ehara&er,nnd the possession of a bone_
q„
The-Hon: Gentleman might, orite might not
Ipew.nothirig-of-hls private life), be able to
obtain the- necessary testimonials ; if he could not,
-undoubtedly; hecouki:not•be inducted into a bene-
fice ; bite then it would arise from his not
,having
the necessary testimonials,. 'and not from his being
a.Layinan„ • Thd Hon: Gentleman• could no more
. ;esign his clerical :charaelet than a•Peer could his
..dignity—They were both . for:life, and the Hon.
,Gentleman could now administer the Sacrament,
&c. This indelibility of charader might in
particular cases he inconvenient to. the individual ;
tar 4 he was convinced, that it. was: far the. public
ad vantvge that the Law should be ,as. it now stood.
• It /Tight appear hard that pirsOns who after . per.
paps d •Inonth's acquaintance married, should be
compelled, even though their tempers disagreed, to
live , together the,,, remainder of their lives ; but
when pcuple kneW iiiar.separation. was impossible,
they, never indulged the hope. • In the. case of Cler_
.. gy this of character might, in par.
cases, be. fotind inconvenient; but it was
betOr that. odividuars should suffer that inconveni:. '
•ence, than that the. Minds, of 'persons in Holy Or,
...ders.Aould be left open to allurements and tempta-
'' tions which Would diStraCt • their minds from the
sacred duties of itteir. °thee. With respett to the
Bill before the Housei-fic' had only, to- say, that his
opinion Originally was;i'Aat another course ought
to heve been adopted ; but the House having
thought otherwise, he bowed to their decision, and
should support this Bill, conceiving, as 'he did, that
the i louse of Commons was a Lay AssemblY, and
that this was not the period to make -experiments
upon the Constitution. .
Dr. -LAwits-Nct, in a short 'Speech, supported
the opinion of the Learned Gentleman who precetL
'ed him. ,
Mr. GREY said, he assented to all that had fallen
from the Learned Gentleman tespeeling the indeli-
bility of the Char:lC.lerl but he denied that the Cha_
• • ratters of a Priest and a Legislator were incompa-
: tible. In the early periods of our history, the
.Clergy, though they formed a distind body, yet
did constantly in. Temporal Affairs, and held
Civil (Aces; and therefore he considered the two
charatiata.as by •nd.Means incompatible. He how_
• ever whiled. to -exclude_ the Clergy, .not because he
thot.iht that they were more liable to corruption
ili4n Zither- piq.-,that he thought their Secular
Duties would interfere with their Spiritual ones,
`and that theibiittitig In: that House would open a
'-0-44-oitnr'ee. of influence.: IleAtherefore wished that this.
. Btu' 51)2u1d tender every pelsoet .bOlding'r .Benefice •
,d7Prktibititig.:An'y r-CUrgyinan having
,onet a 'Sea '0
it ,411 A Ise use from ever holding a Be-
,,.;4ca'afigi‘farcts..!.4not!ter objeetiqip ,he .had to
'o",..thiat:itipittagety4latir Avasa,..peetaraiory, and -noi an
Enaßing Law, for, upon.exattining all the prece.
a67t-s.;" .1-iiliAlieti".4llFeellhit • The- Law , was as
'to be. He then commented
Haejcseet who appear_
ed to in. Holy:Qtairst it yet presented a Bills.
•••11tr.tpiyt,•41Valt#-f4 was ,afterwards con,
t • tienane&toieath, ant inferie
.from. ;his case, .
• ..;•••;ittiallittse;ti+mlieity-krilert -at that: time siv, iiv
e 132usei.9c,:C911tit oni -4.--itison' these grounds' he
rt. • . • '
should oppose the t •
. •
IF211:‘,1-EOTT-Usirized,
.that,
_it, Etecinently
occurred ancient:times, ,that WerepreSented
• 'llor re not ins Holy Qrders.., t
CE.';XCEI.4ORV-the EXCIIEQVER said,
detain, the House but a short time, . as, he
eonl.V.add
.rithing.to thelOrce of the arguments Of.
ItiAltrlbii:'atiti- Learned Friend: -He wished, .
,bowever, to obServe, that in'the Journals of former
times, Petitions and. Bills were described in the
same terms, :and, therefore the Bill 'which Sir Thoi.
Hackset, .was stated to have presented, -might have
been a Petition: With respett to what had fallen
from an 'Hon; Gentleman (S/Ir. Gaav), he admit.
•ted, that the Clerical Charaaer was. indelible ; but
'contended; that it was not incompatible with that
of a Legislator.' Upon this, subject, he concurred
in °pinion .with his Right Hon. and Learned Friend,.
t that ;Ails was a •Lay Assembly, :and though the
Canons of the Church did not expressly say the two
Chaili&eis tutee incompatible; yet;.he Wasjikstifio
contepdifig, that they were by the Lex'et
Parhamenti, which, . except in the case of
• • -Rusliworth, had been uniformly adhered to. The ,
.6r3t regulation, which the Hon. Gentle Man wished
to propose was, that PersOns having a Benefice
.should'not be eligible he could not conceive a more
-regulation; because' t would leave persons
in,Holy Order a kind of loop-hole to get out. of
their profession, and , would induce them, in. the
early part of their lives, to direct their talents,
• their studies, arid their views, to objeas incon.
sistenCeWith chities of their holy
,office—it would
afforil them temptations to ambition, an l keep Oleic.
minds in a:state of, suspense and .elistradion. .This
was 'a situation ,it the' duty of the Le.'
• 4, !mute -topreth(Thein being place 4 • ; because
•
it would ren4 to divest. the Clerical Charadei of -
the resPetallity, v. 71) Ch be at Cacti-
, •:. ,e 1 to 'it. -.l4&•Conld'erineeive.,nothing more desirable
than that the mind of a young ClergymarKshould be
ilireelctii.to .one °Neel, 'ilia that he should know
........rkt-he+ael-nO.--o,thei.-nieans -of obtaininithe. esteem
of his
.couetrymen_o thanb)r 'devoting all his at-
-'••••• .• ••••4

1 ~

V,

engaged.. 7 .vifitinttpe-4t-%tcfr:tile- OtAcri. Keguta
tion of the Honourable Gentleman, that Persons
.in. Holy- Orders having -once. sat in -that- Hops;
should not afterwards be capable ,of holding a Bene- ,
fice, it was equally objectionable, becatise it either .
went to divest a man of his Clerical Charader
altogether, which the Hon. Gentleman admitted
was impossible, or else it left him capable of per. •
forming part of his fundions, Such. as marrying,
burying, &c. He-was sure the Hon. Gentleman must
see the impropriety of ,adoptirig such:a. regulation.
The Hon. Gentleman . objeded to the declaratory
part of thiS Bill, because he was not satisfied by the
precedents. that 'persons in Holy Orders could not sit
in that House; but those who thought that they
were always ineligible, must of course support this
Bill ; at.-the same time he admitted that the Hon:
Gentleman who thought otherwise was consistent:in
opposing the Bill. He would not trouble the House
any ,longer-7-he had merely risen to say a word
or two upon what kd fallen from the Hon: Gen-.
tleman (Mr. GREY) ; as to the general argoment he
should he ashamed to say a-word upon ir, after ',stmt
had been so forcibly urged by. his Right•Bon..ind
• -
learned friend.
Mr. GREY, in explanation, said, he had not id.:
mined the indelibility of the Clerical Charaaer,i
but only avoided entering into. that question 'at the
I present moment, and conceded it for all the purlioses.
of this • discussion.— As to the idea that he l.ad
thrown out respecting admitting the Clergy. to.sii
in that House, on' condition that they should after-
wards never be allowed- to accept •any Chinch Berm..
fice, he only meant' what:he, had expressed, that
they should be debarred accepting any Benefice-,-,
not, that they should not afterwards be permitted to
exercise Clerical funa-icns. .
Lsrd ALA WKESB URI' rose .to .reply to one ar.;
gument used by the. Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ga El)1
The Question before the House .heepocsived to,
resolvable into two points : Ist., Is the Clerical
.Character indelible? .and, ally, Allowing the/inde
•libility, does it render the Clergy ineligible to -a
seat in this House ? Now, in. answer to the -min_
ment of the.HOn.-Gentleinan; to which he meant to
confine himself, he would caltueon him to,produce one
instance, from the earliest periods of the History 'uf
Pa.rliament, ofa Clergypiarrhaving sat in the HOuse,
as a Clergyman. There may be instances of per.
sons in Holy Orders having 'sat as Laymen, .but
none, of their haring -appeared 10 the House, in the
Clerical dress and chara&er. Now if these persons
had not been convinced themselv:es of their ineligi-
bility. as Clergymen, they would not have laid
aside, in this House,- the ,garb of their profession
which they had been accustomed .to wear. This'he
contended, was a strong,propf in opposition to the
Hon, Gentleman's statement, that the indelibility
of the Clerical.Characier does not destroy the 'eli-
gibility-
of the Clergy ;. and. that it has ever been
the general opinion of Parliament, and of the Coon_
try, that 'persons Who have been in Holy Orders
are, ineligible. He admitted, that as in all general
cases of this kind, inconveniencies may result from.
establishing the indelibility .of the character, and
the. consequent ineligibility. _Were thiS Bill the en..
aament of new laws and of new regulations on the
subjed, and not merely a declaration of what is at-
ready and.ever has been the law, then the House
would be bound to inquire what inconveniencies
would. result from each side of the question, and to
decide npon'which side the balance rested ; but this
is not the case,. and though it . were, he Would be
prepared to contend, that much fewer, and smaller
inconveniencies would result .from making the &in-
ciplei of the present Bill the Law, 'than from ad-
mitting the Clergy to lay aside their character, and
,to be eligible to sit in this House,---Lord HAwlas-
Dual' concluded: with a resumption of some of the
arguments used by the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-
CHEQOER on this point. •
Mr.,Gßrk again explained.-

. Mr. BR AGGE felt. a difficulty in reconciling the
-arguments used by_ Mr. GREY, and attempted tO.
sliew their inconsistency.. He 'alsa correded- the
statenient, of that gentleman, that the Clergy had
stt as a third, branch of the Legislature, deliberat-
Ans,on temporal' affairs. Be contended that the
expression, The Lords, Spiritudl and Temporal, and
Corrimoni of Great Britain; in' Parliament assem-
bled, ever comprehended in its meaning the. Clergy
siting n'a separate House as a third branch of the
Legislature. He did not expel, after what had
'passed in the; Committee, to . have heard the
Hon Gentleman mention the' case ,of Sir•Ttiom4s
' -HACK-SEE. &it he .had learned a circumstance since
the breaking up of the Committee; which, in his
opinion; was a 'clear proof that Sit THOMAS HACK-.
SEE never was a Member of the House 'of. Com-
mons. It is mentioned in Rymer's Colledions that
lie was the Representative, of Lord SUFFOLK. Now
this niustMean that he was the Proxy of that NO-
blenran in. his 'absence in the House of Peert, and
being such,., he could not,bej Member of the HouSe
of Commons. Mr. BR'
ACGE expressed his decided
approbation of the Bill.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT'S Amendment was then
put andnegatiVed.
,
The original Motion being then put, '• ‘,
Mr.. HORNE TOOKE said, he'clid not mean to
enter into any of the points which had been now de-
bated, nor did he intend to notice the gross misre-
Rresentations of what had fallen' from him,• by the
ight Hon. and Learned Gentleman,, though per-
' haps he would enter -into the whole Question at
large on another occasion. • :His intention at pre-
sent was, after making: a' few observations, to
move, the, recommitment 'ofthe Bill. -- . • .

The SPEAKER said, that this Motion could
not be made, as the Bill was tQi? far .advanced in
its progress to be recommitted consistently with
the order of proceedings ; but after it had been read'
a third time,• -the lion. Gentleman. might move
what Amendments-he might think necessary.
The Bill was•then read a third time.

Mr. T OOKE thought*tbat be ccmld convince the
House that' many Amendments would be. necessary
to be made in this 101 'and that if they were inot
made, it would go down to posterity as a weight
hanging about the necks of the present ParliaMent,
-He' did pot say that it would be sufficient of itself
to consign its memory to disgrace, but connected
iiiilli-cithtt—Aitrof this Parliament infringing on the

. •7

tend. to produce thii etteeC. Wtiat is. the langtmgc
of the Preamble I "Whereas it expedient to pre-
vent doubts as to the eligibility of persons in Ho!).
.
Orders to sit in the House of Commons, also to
make' more effeCtual 'provision for excluding them
from sitting therelol''. Here no reason is ns'.igned
for the passing of. the Bill ; arid if,. to. the disgrace
of the House, it should pass with this Preamble-
altered, he did not think that it was likely to meet
the approbation of the-Bishops in the other House.
For how does ' the case stand ? The' body of the
Bill does not consist with 'the Preamble. In the
body of th-e Bill, 'the expression "being or ha 4 ing-
been in Holy Orders'," twice occurs. Now, 'ac-
cording to the principles of the Church of England,
it is held that a person cannot be ordained to Holy
Orders, except by a regular successor of the Apos- •
ties, which the Church conceived its Bishops to be,
through the uninterrupted succession of the Bishops
ofilorne.' . This, ordination the Honse is told also
confers an indelible charaeter. The language, be-
ing :or having been, may therefore apply to the
Clergy of the Chiirch of England. But does it ap-
ply to the
,Clergy of the, Church of Scothind ? By
p 9 means ; persons being in Orders in that Church
are indeed, eligible; but its Ministers :ray lay
aside their clerical character whenever they choose,
.and thus becorr:a eligible to a seat ,in the HoUse.'
The express an. , " having beets,'` cannot therefore
apply to them. &great (It!' al. Las been said of the

indelibility of.ihe Clerical Charader. It will not,
be pretended that Christianity is an indelible thing,
though it is conferred by a wi:ole Sacrathent, Bap-
tism.. But Holy Orders are indelible, it seems,.
because ; the ceremony which confers them is a
fraaion,of. a • Sacrament,- according to the Right
•Honourable and, Learned. Gentleman. But where
theindelibility of charaaer conferred by it
the reign of EDWARD the' Sixth ?' All the
;

Clergy -"were then ordained Protestants ; but on
.the succession of MARY, they all became Papists,
ur exposed themselves to the risk of being burned.
Put•the,case the other way : In MARY'S Reign all
the .Clergy 'wcre _ordained Papists ; on the night
.„
of her death, they
.went to bed Papists;, and the
next morning, on. the succession of ELIZABETH,
they_rose Protestants, .He had heard much of the
learning displayed:in support of the position of the
. indelibility of the Clerical Charaaer.. For his part
he hid not been able to perceive any of it. No au-
thority had been adduced, and assertion had been
substituted in the room of proof. What opinion of
the Apostles, what text of Scripture, nay even what
,Canon had been quoted ? He had heard no learning,
but merely boldly stated opinions and positive Air-
mations. If this be learning and ability, the boldest
and most impudent man is. the most learned and the
ablest.. He had been called
-upon to prOduce an

adjudication that persons in Holy Orders are eligi-
ble to aSeat. in .the Ile.would in his turn
call loran adjudication of the eligibility of a Biscuit
Baker, an Iron.monget, or a Stockbroker. He had
understood one argument in support of the Bill to
be,that it was !intended to prevent corruption in
the House. He was surprised that Ministers'should
coincide in this argument, for if the admission of
the Clergy tcz sit in the House 'would prodUce cor-
ruption; to whom ought the blame to be imputed r
Not to the,Clergyohe corrupted, but the Ministers
of the Crown, the corruptors ; to those who seduce,
and. not those. who allow. themselves to be. seduced.
But, all the thoughts of Geotlemen seem to turn .on
-the rights of the_Ele4ed., while they totally torget
the rights of the. tle6lors. . (Same Gentlemex.here
..meffciofted for instance those of. Old Sarum.) Mr.
tOOK a thanked them'for the hint ; ,he' had Old
Sarum in his Mind at the time. He declarecl'he sat
in the Hou§e as independent as any man in if. He
had been returned unfatetecf by any'.cOndirions—he
was
_not even bound to take care of Old Sarum.
The House might take it' '
and throw' it on the floor
along with other Boroughs of the description
if they pleased; he would not oppose it, and thus
they ,ivoulci get rid Of him at once.. Tootte
was' proceeding to advert to the heavy penalties im-
posed 'by the Bill; as requiring some amendment,
when

The SPE AKRR asked him if he meant to propose
any Amendment to the Preamble of the Bill, as the
subtOs which he -was proceeding: to discuss, were
entirely 'distina from the Preamble. •
Mr. TOOKE said, he. was at a' loss what Amend-
ment to propose,• and expressed a wish that the
Right Eon. Gentleman,, the 'mover of. the. Bill,
would take upon biintelf, the task of proposing the
Anieodinents, if what he had' said or might say, •
convinced him of the. necessity of some being made.
He had no wish to defeat the obje& of the Bill, but
merely that it :should leave the House in as unex-
ceptionable a fOrin•as .possible. However, for form
sake, he ;would' move an Amendinent to the Pre- '
amble, feeling no wish that it should be adopted.—r
He then moved,: that the following Clause should
be prefixed to the. Preamble: ."':'Whereas Persons in
Holy Orders. ought not to be intangled with,Secular
the
,office of the. Ministry being of 'so,
great importance as to ocecupy the whole man, -and
as appears from long emierience that such personi,
by meddling, in temporal concerns, have occasioned
great mischief iii
.Church and state."
This Modal* being read by the SOF AKE It,
Mr. Tooxß Proceeded' to express a hope, that
he would be excused for his Want' of Order. 'He
had no wish that the Clergy should be admitted to
sit in'thp House. He did not feel' much attachment-
to them ; at the same time, he did- not wish khem
to' be treated With disrespe6l. He 'knew that many'
of them are leatned and goad Men—he knew also,
that there is a different Class of them, whci would
belnore fitly employed' ingnaking Hobnails. . He
had often`heard'of 'Casuists splitting hairs--,:but till
he-heard it from the Right Hon..and Learned Gen-
tleman, he had never heard of splitting Sacraments.
'A very learned and eminent Casuist, he believed his
name was Dr. Smallwood, undertook to explain the
miracle of Christ's tasting Out the Devils from the,
man:who was wandering amongi the tombs, and send-
ng• them among the-Herd-pfSwine. He found that
there was a legionof these Devils. Hit first busi-
oess was to aacertaio What a legion was. He found
that it was a Roman name for a body of men, the
-cumber of which varied at differeot times. He took
the number about the time , the miracle was, per-
formed. - All this said not require much learning,

4ri3e and,Alabie langoax ordcr
number of Swjne.werc in a Hcr(l, in Ile
then apPlicl his bkilt the
portion of Devils ro Swint., and tl'e reSei was;, chat
there WaS about a Dtvil anti a half, ut a Devil arki
three_quarters to each Hog. Ever after the learne'd
Casuist was called.'Dr. Split Devil, ThiS wa3
splitting Devils) and now he had heard Of _Fplitting
Sacraments,

.
, The ~STAKE-R. interrupted Mr. ToomE-by say.;
ing, that be, conceived' the obsentitions, he was
making; had,- ho..cimilealmi with the Ame.ndthent
moved. r ' .. - - , • ,

Mr. TOOKE said, he'would then reserve them
•
till the Motion be made for passing the Bill, and
confine himself at present' to the grounds of the dif.
ferent, Amendments he meant rci move.

The Question on the Amendment was then puts
Strangers were. ordeted to withiraw ; Mr. TooK,e
and sonic others cklied.No, M; but Gentlemen.on
the other side of the liotise'persisted ici enforcing
the Order. -

- The House sat for a considerable. time, but we
were not re-admitted- to the Gallery., We under-
stood that the Amendment was negatived, and the
Bill passed:-Adjourned till to-Morrow:

From' the LONDON GAZETai Hoy 19, 'Sol.

19j reot

The King has been pleased to grant the dignity
of a Viseount of the United Kingdtim of Great Bri.
tarn and 'lreland to the Right flohourable Horatio
Baron Nelson, Knit;lit of the Most, Hohourable
Order of the Bath, 'and Vice-Admiral of the Blue
Squadron of His Majesty'y Fleet, and the 'Heiri
Male of his Body lawfully begotten, by the Name,
Style! and Title of Viscotint Nelson of the Nile,
and `of Rurnhain Thorpe, in the.C9unty of Norfolk.
The King has.also.been pleased to• nominate and
appoint Thomas Graves, Esq.,.Rear-Admiral of the
White to be one of the' Knights Companions of the
Most Honorable Order of the Bath,