The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-14 00:00:00

ANTI-CORN LAW DELEGATES

The Delegates assembled yesterday at the usual hour.
Among tl;e Members of Parliament who were
present, we noticed Mr. Hume, Mr. Villiers, Sir G.
Strickland, Mr. Hindley, Mr. Thornely, Mr. Wood,
Mr. Scholefield, Mr. Easthope, Mr. M. Phillipps, Mr.
Baines, Mr. Tancred, Mr. Denistoun, and Mr.
Horsman.
Mr. GREG gave notice of a motion for to-morrow, to
appoint the following gentlemen to prepare a statement
of the respective trades mentioned. For the woollen
trade, Mr. Stansfield ; for the cotton trade, Mr. John-
son (and Mr. Greg) ; for the hosiery, Mr. Rawson ; for
the hardware, Mr. Walker (not yet arrived) ; for the
worsted, Mr. Milligan ; and for the corn trade, Mr.
Walmsley and Mr. Sturge (expected to arrive on
Thursday).
Mr. EWART said a communication had been received
from a gentleman connected with the paper manufactory,
who would be able to prove a great exportation of the
paper-making machinery. There had also been several
communications from agriculturists, who were willing to
discuss this question.—(Hear.) Communication had
been opened with about fifty additional places.—(Hear.)
Mr. WEIR said he had heard of certain under-
hand whispers which had been circulated to the preju-
dice of their cause. All they wished was a fair and
open hearing.-_( Hear.) They asked to be allowed to
prove their ease at the bar of the House of Corn-
mons—( Hear, hear)—and they considered that those
who were whispering about that the Delegates—" al-
though indeed their principles were good—were damn-
ing their cause by injudicious measures," should come for-
ward and state openly, what objections they entertained
to the proceedings of the Delegates. An instance had
lately occurred of speedy retribution for an injury which
had been done to the cause, be (Mr. Weir) thought
more from want of judgment than design:—(Het r.)
But that showed how prompt and efficacious the punisit-
ment would be of those who should be guilty of any
dereliction of their duty in a similar way—( Hear, hear)
—and more especially with respect to Scotch Members,
he would say that if they deserted this cause they must
fix themselves firmly in their stirrups, for an attempt
would certainly be made to force them from their seats.
—(Hear.)
Mr. EWART said he was glad the Delegates were
prepared to adhere to their first determination, to de-
mand inquiry, instead of going at once for a simple re-
peal, which would in all probability result in an igno-
minious defeat.--( Hear.) The question then was, what
kind of inquiry should be asked for ? Were they to
put up with the hypocrisy of a Select Committee ? Or
whether they should demand an open and a full inquiry
before Parliament, was not the question—one of such
magnitude, of such national importance, that it was en-
titled to a Parliamentary investigation.—(Hear, hear.)
With respect to Mr. Wood, perhaps he had been rather
too severely dealt with, used as he had been-as an instru-
ment in the Parliamentary manoeuvres of Sir R. Peel
and Lord Stanley.—(Hear.) But if Sir R. Peel had no
better arguments to answer the Anti-Corn-law case, the
Right Hon. Baronet had but a miserable case to rest
on.—(Hear, hear.) The late proceedings at Manches-
ter and Kendal proved how deeply this Anti-Corn-law
cause had taken root among the respectable portions of
the community.—( Hear.) That cause, founded as it
was on the great principles of truth and justice, though
it might for a time be retarded, must ultimately suc-
ceed—(Hear)—and even such statesmen as Sir R.
Peel would eventually become converts to it.—(Hear.)
Me. BOUI.TBEE said that he was perfectly convinced
that eventually this question must be carried ; but that
in order to carry it, it was necessary to convince the
minds of the agriculturists that it was for their interest
that the Corn-laws should be repealed. A consider-
able degree of misapprehension also existed on this sub-
ject, on the part of the Members of both Houses of Par-
liament. With a view of removing this misapprehension,
he had given notice yesterday of Cis intention of bringing
forward a motion on this subject. in fact he had never
yet met with any Member of Parliament who was fully
aware of all the facts which could be brought forward
in support of the question of repeal. He thought that
if the agriculturists could be made acquainted with these
facts there could be no doubt but that a great change
would take place in their minds. It had been suggested
to him since, that the bringing these-statements forward
at present might be rather injurious to their cause than
otherwise, and he therefore withdrew his notice o

motion.
Mr. GREG said that as Mr. Weir had spoken of
conversations which had taken place relative to
the proceedings of the different delegates he (Mr. G.)
would take this opportunity to correct a misrepresenta-
tion as to what had passed at a recent meeting of the
Political Economy Club. At that meeting a contro-
versy had taken place between Mr. Tooke and Mr.
M'Culloch on the one side, and himself (Mr. Greg)
and another gentleman (whose name we could not catch)
on the other. It was represented that Mr. M'Culloch
had on that occasion completely smashed him (Mr.
Greg). Now nothing could be further from the fact.
Mr. M'Culloch had met with a complete answer ; and
he (Mr. Greg) should have no objection to go over
the same ground again with Mr. M'Culloch in any
public assembly. Had the question been at all dubious,
or related to anything but facts, he should not have
ventured to oppose Mr. M'Culloch ; but as the ques-
tion turned entirely on facts relating to the state of the
manufactures of foreign countries, in comparison with
the manufactures of this, he considered that he was more
qualified even than Mr. M'Culloch to form an opinion
on this subject. All Mr. M'Culloch's facts were at
least twenty years old, with the exception of some of-
ficial returns ; and so far from Mr. M'Culloch having
smashed him, he had got a most complete answer.—
(Hear, hear )
Mr. RAWSON asked what political economists would
say to the little parcel which he held in his hand, which
contained Saxon hosiery thirty to forty per cent. below
what similar articles could be afforded for in this
country ? Could political economists overcome this
fact ? He wished to draw the attention of a Member
of Parliament who he now saw in the room, who had
never deserted the cause of the people under any cir-
cumstances, he meant Mr. Hume—(Cheers)—he
wished to draw his attention to the fact which was
corroborated by Mr. Filkin of Nottingham, that the stock-
ing•workers, who never earned more than 12s. a-week, did
not now earn half that sum, while the price of provisions
was two-thirds higher. This could not be attributed to
the introduction of any new powers—the machines were
the same ; and the only advantage which the Saxon
manufacturer possessed, was the cheaper price of pro-
visions.

MR. TAYLOR.-It had been yesterday represented
as desirable to convince the agricultural interest that
their interests were not separate from those of the
manufacturers. The agriculturists could only be con-
vinced of this by arguing the question on principle, and
to principle only would he appeal in this discussion. The
only irremediable evil which could happen to the agricul-
tural interest is an unemployed population. Every other
misfortune they might be enabled to survive—this they
never could. It is almost superfluous to observe that
an employed population can have nothing to stand be-
tween them and starvation except the land. Yet the
legislation adopted with regard to the Corn-laws, is in
direct contradiction to this principle. The only rock on
which they could possibly suffer shipwreck, is the very
one on which they seem determined to run the vessel.
They arc more interested in this question than we are.
In a few days the Members of the Legislature will
be sitting with the greatest gravity to consider wile-
they shall grant us a boon, when, in fact, it will be
for themselves and their own interests to accede to our
wishes. They must decide whether prosperity shall
continue, or whether they will involve themselves
and us in one common ruin. Their only
safety consists in having the population fully
employed. They ought to offer a reward for
the discovery of any new manufacture which
the poor might produce, and the luxurious consume.
How do the landed interest propose to support the
population of this country ? The land has its limits ; the
manufactures for home consumption cannot employ more
than a certain number. Our population is continually
increasing—and how is the surplus to be employed, ex-
cept in manufacturing for foreign markets? Above all
things they should avoid incurring the danger of au un-
employed population. Nothing can avail them, unless
they find full employment for the population. It might,
in fact, be almost reduced to a syllogism, as follows :
The evil most to be dreaded by the agricultural interest
is an unemployed population. The Corn-laws tend to
throw the population out of employment. Therefore,
the Corn-laws are an evil to the agricultural interest.
Mr. 'lnstr. said he had long been convinced of the
absolute necessity of repealing the Corn-laws ; some

years ago he proposed that it should have been ef-
fected graduallY, commencing with a fixed duty. He
was then met by a complaint that such a measure
would affect private interests. For until very lately he
had:never heard it said that the Corn-laws were kept up
for the interests of the landowners. Sir. J. Graham had
indeed said, two or three years ago, that without the
Corn-laws the landowners could not exist ; but that was
thought extravagant.—(llear.) In the present Session,
however, Mr. Handley had unblushingly avowed that
the Corn-laws were a monopoly intended for the benefit
of the landowners, and that they were determined to
maintain them.—(Hear, hear.) .In 1833 and 1834 he
(Mr. Hume) had visited the manufacturing towns of
Belgium and Prussia, and bad observed the process of
manufacturing hosiery and other articles (such as ladies'
cloth), in which the foreign manufacturers were rapidly
superseding the British. And Dr. Bowy.ng and himself bad
devoted a great deal of time to examining the causes of the
foreign manufacturers'rapid success ; and the result of their
investigations in every case was, that the low price of
food alone was the cause.—(Hear,e;_hear.) He did not
believe a free-trade in corn would lower the price of
corn in this country, so much as some persons antici-
pated.—(Hear, hear.) He was himself a landowner—
his income depended on land. After a mature consider-
ation of the question he had come to the conclusion that
a repeal of the Corn-laws would produce little or no
injury to him.—( Hear, hear.) The effect of the repeal
would be that the price of corn in foreign couitries
would be raised, and the labourers there would be placed

on the same footing as ours.—(Hear hear.) This
would improve die condition of the labouring elass,s. 01.
this country much more than any system of emigration that
could be devised.—(Hear.) On this point Colonel
Tortens's three letters were admirable ; they clearly
showed that the great object of Governments ought to
be not so much to expatriate labourers, as to create an
additional demand for labour at heme.---(Henr.) It
was unfortunately too true that the present Heuse of
Commons was legislating habitually for their own in-
terests. But surely if it were clearly proved to them
how prejudicial the Corn-laws were to our manufac-
turing labourers, humanity would prompt the repeal of
those laws.—( Hear.) And as this was in fact. a que,
tion of humanity, it was to be hoped that it would be
advocated by those who heel supported the relief of the
factory children, and the emancipation of the negroes.
The repeal of the Corn-laws would tend, more than any.
other measure, to relieve the poor factory children, and
the working classes generally, from that state cf slavery
to labour in which they were at present involved.—
( Hear.) It was to him (Mr. Hume) a matter of regret
that the working classes should be so misled as to op-
pose this measure.—(Hear.) The working classes had
unhappily been induced to believe that the capitalists
were selfishly desirous of making large fortunes out of
their labour,whercas the great master manufacturers were
many of them, and more were becoming so every day,
unable to get the ordinary returns to their capital.
(Hear.) To convince the working classes of their
error in that respect ought to be a primary object with
the Delegation.—(Hear.) In 1827 he had been time
advocate of a fixed duty, but now he was of °Olio,
that no duty at all should be retained—(Hear)---and
his advice to the Delegates was that nothing should I
induce the to relax their endeavours to lay before the I

public as many facts on this great subject Ps
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. JOHNSON, like Mr. Hume, regretted that fl?.

sorking classes should so far misunderstand the inten:
ions of the manufacturers upon this question. If the

manufacturers had great profits they then went into
the market for labour, and there it rose in price ; if his
profits were small, or if he had none, then he ceased to
manufacture, and the market for labour was over-
stocked, and of course its price fell. He did eot
think the House of Commons would be so mad

as to disregard their petition, backed as they
were by the great' wealth of the whole manu-
facturing interests of England and Scotland. It

was not the past they wished the Honse to look to, hot
to the future—(Hear, hear), and as wise statesmen the
Ministry ought carefully to look a-head. Mr. Finch
was sorry that he had not time to attend the Deputa-
tion that day, as he had received a letter from Banbury
in which it was stated that they had narrowly eseaped
a row there, from the means taken to procure sigt:a.-
tures to the landlords' petition. In that pctitien

_ ....„
the usual fallacy that the repeal of the Corn-laws w.)uid
lower wages. That opinion had been reiteratorl over
and over again, but especially by the landed interest ,
but it was, nevertheless a fallacy still. Take the easz.
of America, there wages were very high and provisions
were as low as in any country. It might be said that was
new country, then he would take an old one. Look Ltt
Ireland, there wages were low, and yet there was ro
country except England where food was so big:).
Wages depended entirely upon the rate of profits.
(Hear, hear.) If profits were good, then the price of
labour would rise—if they were low, then wages must
fall.

Mr. BAINES said, as Lord J. Russell had given no-
tice that to-morrow he would give an answer to the
question of Sir R. Peel, and state what course the
Government intended to take with respect to jr. Vil-
liers' motion ; would it not be as well for the Deputa-
tion to wait upon his Lordship previously ?
Sir G. STRICKLAND had often thought of such a
suggestion, but had not broached it, inasmuch as the
management of the Parliamentary campaign had beers
left to a Sub-Committee. He however thought tLe
suggestion a very good one, and that it ought to he
adopted. He had always contended for the repeal of
the Corn-laws on the broad principles of justice and
sound principle. As a landowner he might meet with
some loss, but he thought that in justice he ought to do
so, and so he thought every honest landowner ought.—
(Cheers.) He was perfectly aware that there w"re a
great many landowners now coming round to tlnir
opinion, and they only wanted to have the facts of tho
case stated to them in order to convince them. They
were now wavering in their opinion, and many who
were lately determined opponents to any alteration,
had confessed to him that they were now convinced
that a fixed duty would be better for their own interests
than the present fluctuating scale.--(Hear, hear.) He
would not deny that a great majority of them said to
themselves—" we have got a monopoly, and we will
keep it if we can ;" but still, from his own experience,
he would assure them that their cause was progressing
even amongst the agriculturists. Let the Deputation
put the case fairly before them, and they would vet
obtain great support from the lauded interest. ile
world respectfully press upon the Deputation the value
of Mr. Baines's suggestion.

The CHAIRMAN-'WaS certain that all the Delegates
would feel extremely indebted for the remarks whivh
had just fillen from the Hon. Bart., and he could assure
him it was the wish of the Delegates to cultivate a
friendly feeling towards the landlords. They did not
wish to draw a pledge from any Member of Parliament
until he had heard the evidence they could lay before
the House.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted Lord Join
Russell had committed himself by saying that before that
petition was presented he would be prepared on Thurs-
day to state what course the Government intended to
take. He trusted the Government would not resolve
on adopting any particular course until they heard the care
of those opposed to the Corn-laws, for he felt convinced
that when the Government heard their evidence, thn-
would come to one result and that result would bee,
total and immediate repeal.—(Hear.) The only ques-
tion with them was, whether the evil had not gone se,
far that the repeal would now be of no use.—( near.)
Perhaps even the landowners themselves would very
soon be of that opinion. They wished to meet all
parties •in the most friendly spirit ; :Ind if they could
give any information by an interview or otherwise, they
would be very happy to do so.
Mr. BAINES, M.P., would submit to the considera-
tion of the Delegates whether they should not ask for
an interview with Lord John Russell? They had bad
an interview with Lord Melbourne. Whether that
interview was satisfactory or not, he did not know ; but
he thought they ought to have a conference 1; ith Lord
John Russell, for that might have the effect of modifying
the answer he would return to-morrow.

—The CHAIRMAN said he would submit the suggestion
of the Hon. Member to the consideration of his col-
leagues.
Mr. THOMAS WILSON, of Kendal, was sorry to hear
the various reflections that were made as to no commoo
interest existing between master and man. He.
would be sorry to be placed in the capacity of
a manufacturer if such was the case. For the
workmen in his own establishment he could
sey there was not a man among them who would not
come forward and state that he considered his rn,,,,ster's
interest and his own interest were one, and that when
the master was suffering the man was sufferina, and
when the man was suffering the master was suffering..
Mr. BOULTBEE did not understand that Lord John
Russell was to give an opinion if they had an interview
with him, but was only to hear what they had to say.
He hoped that Mr. Baines's suggestion would be
aoopted, and that a few gentlemen would wait on Lord
John Russell.

Dr. BOWRING had beard with great delight the state-
ment which had been made as to the unanimous fcel-
ing which prevailed between the masters and the nu-I:-
men of Kendal, and he trusted the example would
widely spread. In justice to the operations of those
who fancied that the agitation of these topics might re-
tard others which interested them, it might be said
that in 19 cases out of 20 the labouring population had
come forward with an unanimous voice to petitioa
the repeal of the Corn-laws.
The Committee then adjourned.