The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

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suppoGed to be before the House of Commons, that had been
represented as being under the consideration of the Govern-
ment, and which occupied the anxious wish of his Majesty.
These Bills were the Irish Tithe Bill and a Bill for the relief

of the poor of Ireland. The Noble Viscount said there Was no
connection between the Irish Tithe Bill and the Municipal.

Bill, but he thought he could show that there was, because it
might place the Church of Ireland in the power of a great
predominant party in the State. But who was it th"at had
unsettled the state of the Irish Church ? Why Parliament had
unsettled it. The Church was united with that of England
by the Act of Union ; the Act of Union settled that Church.
The Catholic Relief Bill also settled it ; it was passed with
the view of giving security to that Church. But, he repeated
Parliament had unsettled the Irish Church by taking so large

a portion of property away from that Church ; at the same
time, he adinitted the necessity which existed for some such
proceeding. He would' beg to ask whether the same neces-
sity did not call upon their Lordships to look with carefulness
and anxiety to the settlement of that question ? Was it too
much to say that a measure which went to give large powers
to a predominant party in Ireland, who declared that the al-
teration of the present Church Establishment was their ob-
ject—that this subject was not connected with it, if they ad-
mitted that predominant party into power? The next ques-
tion with which the Noble Duke coupled his proposition was,
that a Bill had been introduced into the House of Commons
for the purpose of affording relief to the Irish poor. He did
not mean to contend that that Bill was so intimately connected
with this question of the Church as the Tithe Bill ; but he
did himself contend that no Bill could well be deemed as an
auxiliary to municipal government as that with reference to
the Irish poor ; although he did not say their Lordships were to
postpone the consideration of the Municipal Bill until the Bill
for the relief of the poor should come up from the other House.
The House, however, would bear in its recollection the great
question of qualification was involved. He would beg to ask
the Noble Viscount whether the Poor-law Bill, by giving a
rating for the relief of the poor, would not offer to the Le-
gislature a fair test of qualification for a better constituency,
and whether it would not be right to know what that qualifica-
tion would be ? The very principle of the Bill on the table
was qualification ; and could they so far alter that principle as
to make the qualification safe ? The state of the Irish Church
was such as prevented the House from legislating on other
subjects not immediately connected with it. Who that had
looked to the state of Ireland could be blind to the anomalies
of the situation of that country, and the danger which re-
sulted from them ? He knew the danger in which an esta-
blished church was, where its tenets were not held ,by the
majority of the people, and not in connection with the state.
The unjust principle of appropriation had increased the
danger of the Irish Church, and had also prevented le-
gislation on other subjects. If those questions were brought
forward—if the Church of Ireland was placed on a more
stable ground—if the payment of tithe was removed from the
occupying tenant, and thus prevent the collisions which took
place between the Ministers of the Church and -the popula-
tion, he did not despair of Ireland rising out of its present
difficulties. Under such circumstances, he should tact despair
of seeing a general system of education accepted as between
the now members of hostile churches. If the proposition
übmitted by the Noble Duke should induce the House to
await the accomplishment of the measures now in progress,
without reference to the debates in another place, or interfer-
ing in respect of deliberations which would be unfitting and
dangerous in its results, he did think it might be anticipated
there would not be an obstinate adherence on the part of their
Lordships in reference to the settlement of this question. If
the questions he referred to were settled, then their Lordships
might come to the consideration of the measure for the estab-
lishment of Municipal Corporations in Ireland; and at no
distant day he should he prepared to vote for a very different
proceeding from that adopted by their Lordships on the last
year.—( Cheers.)
The Earl of WICKLOW said he had come down to the
House, however disagreeable it might be to him, to differ with
those Noble Lords with whom he usually agreed, to give a
decided vote against a proposition, if it had been submitted,
similar to that of last year—namely, for the abolition of the
existing corporations in Ireland. But the proposition of the
Noble Duke was of a very different nature—it narrowed the
case so much, that it was not necessary for him (Lord

low) on the present occasion to enter -into the great question
involved in the measure then under discussion. The proposi-
tion of the Noble Duke was one of everyday occurrence, not
perhaps on the exact grounds laid down by the Noble Duke,
but the postponement of the consideration of measures for a
few days, or even weeks, frequently took place for their Lord-
ships' own convenience. He could see no danger in the pro-
position, because time could be no apprehension that the de-
lay could lead more to the loss of the measure than if it was
now under consideration. He was sure the Noble Duke would
not do tint indirectly which he would not do directly—he was
far too candid,to propose this delay with a view to the loss of
the measure ; but if such was not the object of the Noble Duke,
which he was sure it was not, he would rive his decided
opposition to the motion which the Noble Duke had submitted.
The Noble Viscount enid that the proposition was wholly un-
precedented ; hut his Noble Friend who had just sat down had
shown that such was not the case.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
Flu could also cite. another case ; he referred to the Roman
Catholic Relief Bill. When that measure was introduced
into their Ler-if:hips' House it was considered necessary to he
accompanied by another measure, which of necessity must on
einate it, the other House of Parliament, going as it did to
affect the privileges of that House, but the Noble Duke de-
clared ho would not go on a single stage wish the Catholic Re-
form Bill, until the measure to which he referred come tip from
the House of Commons: lie alluded to the measure for the ale.
lition of the 40s. fieeelaPers is Ireland. He considered this
in answer to the statemert of the Noble Duke that there ues
no precedent for the present course of proceeding?. 4t the same
time he condi:ly admitted, elide he advocated the adoption
f)r the proposition of the Noble Duke, that he was not induced
to do so ny the reesens which the Noble Delve had given. Ile
did not sea tiny danger as likely to arise to the Esteblished
Church from the passing of this Bill, end therefore was not
eenvineed of the absolute necessity that the Tithe 13.11 should
come under consideration in consequence of such apprehended
danger. Though he did not last year take any part in the
diseu;sions on the measure then propesed, yet he had eletet,S
Leon anxious for the success of the Municipal Corporation Bill
Ireland, which he could not have been conscientiously. if he
had considered that it "vas I..aught with danger to the Estab-
lished Church On the contrary, he thought the passing of
the Bill would rathcr teed 'o tLe security of that Clu-ch.—
( evil from the NtH,terial • benches.) He spoke of the
principle of the proposition Was, not of granting
Corporations to Ireland, because they had existed for centu-
ries, and he must say that Noble Lords fell into a great
error in representing this Bill as having for its object tot
,rant new instinitioes to Ireland. Zany cf them had
exi,ted siece the reign of Henry the Second. Some of
them. no doubt, were of more recent origin, particularly in
north of Ireland, eed he was free to admit that they
e c: c:. c I for ;nest improper purposes,—( Hear.) The qucs_
tuni was, whether they were to extend to Ireland the same
prineiple that had been adopted for Er,_,e-land and Scotland.
There were ports of the measure of which he disapproved, but
ae wit friendly to the prinriple, and could not see any dangcr
likely to arise to the Established Church from its adoption :
yet he could not be blind to the fact, that a great portion of
the people of this country, and many of the most influential
Members of the [louses of Parliament, did see that danger.
It was also well known that-the same opinion was entertained
by many Noble Lords in that House, who, in common with a
large minority of the other Ilsuse of Parliament, were op-
posed to the Bill in its present shape. He would therefore say,
if the Noble Viscount was desirous of passing the measure, and
he sincerely believed he was, considering it as one calculated
to benefit ',eland, that he ought to consider it his duty to
adopt that course which was most likely to carry that object
into effect. The Noble Duke had frankly stated that he was
not opposed to the granting of Corporations, but that he was •
opposed to some of the details. In the principle, however, of
granting Corporations to Ireland, the Noble Duke had stated
that he was disposed to concur.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now,
under such circumstances, would the Noble Viscount de-
cline the concession asked for by the Noble Duke ? If
anything Could produce the effect which the Noble Viscount
deplored, ought he not to take the means most likely to pre-
vent
it ?—(Cheers.) It' the Government admitted the honesty
of the intentions of the Noble Lords on his (the Opposition)
side of the House, then it was impossible that any feeling
could be excited against them in any quarter whatever. With
regard to the arguments of his Noble Friend who had last ad-
dressed the House, they could be refuted ; but he would not
trouble their Lordships, in consequence of the narrow bounds
within which the question now stood, by entering generally
into the subject. He did believe that nothing would be more
likely to excite feelings friendly to the Constitution of the
country in the minds of those to whom his Noble Friend had
alluded, than by being made participators in its blessings.
For the reasons he had stated, though he approved of the prin-
ciple of the measure, he should vote for the proposition of the
Noble Duke; at the same time he admitted that there were
many parts of the Bill which were objectionable, still he sup-
ported the integrity of its principle, wishing to see the details
amended, propositions to which effect he should be prepared
to submit when it arrived in Committee. He would, however,
candidly confess that he would rather assent to the adoption
of the Bill as it stood, than adopt such propositions u had
been agreed to by their Lordships last year. He would sit
down, humbly advising the. Noble Viscount, not as a political
enemy, but as a political friend, to accede to the proposition
of the Noble Duke.
The Marquis of LAN SD OWNE said, before he stated his
opinions on the question before their Lordships, he wished to
express the great satisfaction he felt with what he hail heard
from the Noble Earl, and, he would add, the satisfaction with
which he had heard the Noble Baron who preceded him, and
still more to the spirit of the remarks which he made in com-
menting on the speech of the Noble Duke—not, he would
say, with a view to remove the objections to the course pro-
posed by the Noble Duke, but to remove the objections to the
arguments which had induced the Noble Duke to adopt the
plan which he had proposed. The Noble Baron and the Noble
Duke last Session, he understood, had in an unqualified sense
made a declaration of hostility to the principles of the Bill.
The Noble Duke had, however, explained that his hostility
consisted net in objections to the principle, but to certain
great details. He understood the Noble Duke and the Noble
Baron to give without qualification their consent to the prin-
ciple of the Bill. He did not advert to the details, because
these were matters of minor importance, but to what he
called the invaluable principle of the Bill ; and he trusted,
after what had passed that night, that the Noble Duke would
now give his adhesion to the measure. He hoped before the
debate should close to be distinctly informed what was the
real objection which certain Noble Lords had to a Bill, the
object of which was good local government carried on by ef-
fective and respectable constituted bodies. That was the
great principle of the Bill—that was the principle which was
rejected last year—rejected, lie considered, very injudiciously,