The Sun.
London, England, 1839-04-20 00:00:00

that high state of virtuous populace. I will ask him if that
country had been governed as Ireland has been—if Scot-
land had been portioned out by sauguinary ruffians, and
the people had been despoiled, if a code had been estab-
lished for degrading the presbyterians of Scotland, and
they bad been robbed of their property and had been de-
prived of the power of acquiring an)—if they had been
shut out from the professions—if they had been de-
prived of everything which they considered valuable
—if they had been reduced to a state of serfship, and if all
this had been done under the pretence of establishing an
Episcopal Church amid a Calvinistic people—would not,
I ask, the result in Scotland be the same as in Ireland.—
( Great cheering.) You ask me to inquire as far back as
1835. No ;go back to inquire from the time that my
unhappy country was surrendered to that oppres-
sion which the Scripture teaches you makes " wise
men mad,"—( Great cheering.) There you will find
the true causes of the distresses of my country.—( Cheers. )
But you lay it at the door of Lord Normanby, while in
truth you ought to charge it upon the grave of your fore-
fathers.—( Great cheering.) \Vill the cause you adopt in
this country have the effect of alienating Ireland. No, for
you wish it to be believed that the whole ills to which that
unhappy country has been subjected have been caused by
her Catholic inhabitants. When I bear in mind the hor-
rors that have been perpetrated there—when I bear
in mind that the Courts of Justice have been turned into
scenes of butchery—when I know all the efforts that
have been made by a foul cabal, whose Lord Chancellor
was an atheist, and pretended to be a bigot—when I bear
in mind that upon the first relaxation of the penal code that
the Protestant Association was formed, which Burke had
described as a set of the greatest imposters exist-
ing, I cannot be surprised at the state of Ireland.
Oh, but do you not recollect in 1807, when it was merely
proposed that Catholics should be admitted to the Army
and Navy? When there was no Lord Normanby—( Hear,
hear)—when the great Agitator was unheard of—( A
laugh)—when there was no excitement, yet for the pur-
pose of recovering office, you, who on us and on our religion,
on our priests, and on our altars, had cast unheard of con-
tumelies—who haddenouncd us as perjurers and blasphemers
and idolaters—when you bear in mind that all this was
done by the very party who eight years afterwards carried
the measure for the removal of Catholic disabilities—
(Vehement cheers)—how can you be surprised, that for
the same bad purposes men should be found to act through
the same instrumentality, actuated by the same infernal
passions, and the same detestable imprecations.—( Re-
newed cheers.) And why did you do this ? To
recover Downing-street.—(Hear, and cheers.) ;When
Bonaparte was in the full career of conquest, when the
Empire stood on the verge of unfathomable danger—
when if a French army had landed in Ireland nothing but
a special act of providence could have saved her ; then it
was that the Tories of the day had recourse to the expe-
dient to which I have referred but—now—oh, now, when,
you are at peace, and there is no risk to be encountered—
now the people of Ireland are to be trampled on with im-
punity. Now upon the necks of the people of Ireland
the feet of what shall I call it?—of Rodenism—( Great
laughter and cheering)—may again be planted—and et
you should not be too sure. And that you should not just
consider the changes that have taken place in that country
since the time of Burke, when it was stated that the Ca-
tholics of Ireland were reduced to a mere populace, having
neither property, intelligence, or power. Vast changes have
taken place. Now what are the people of Ireland? Who
are the people of Ireland? That is an important question,
and on the just answer to that question your decision in a
great measure depends.—( Hear, hear.) If the people of
Ireland are composed of that small minority who were
once the depositories of all patronage and power,
and would wish to be continued as the depositories of
patronage when they had no longer the power— ( Cheers)
if the people of Ireland were not the great bulk of the
wealth and intelligence of the the country, then I say at
once let the policy of Lord Normanby be condemned ;
but approve of that policy, if any account of the people of
Ireland be correct, and it is this :—The people of Ireland
are composed of these mighty masses which gradually re-
covering from the effect of a sanguinary conquest,
of a merciless confiscation, and of ruthless oppression,
brought to bear against that tyranny, still as invincible as
remorseless the resources, which nothing but a cause just
beyond all others in the sight of heaven and man, and
who, by an indissoluble union, and an indomitable refusal
of submission, have vanquished in a manner as memorable
as it was imperishable, and as its results would be everlasting,
and have won irrevocably freedom, and following up that
achievement, have become the auxiliaries of their British
fellow-citizens.—(Loud cheers.) They now demand
equality, and putting in for that equality their justly
imperative representation, stand before you in one
vast array in which their increasing numbers, their in-
creasing intelligence, their increasing wealth, and their
consolidated power are accumulated-a-( Loud cheers. )
You want to avoid a collision with the Lords—avoid a col-
lision with Ireland.—( Loud and reiterated cheering.)
"Be slow of entrance in that quarrel." Avoid a collision
with those to whom power has been deputed and cannot be
recalled, and have a care of committing the double mis-
take of thinking you can inflict what we arc not
sufficiently prostrate to bear.—(Loud and long continued
cheering.) Look at the state of Europe. A Noble
Duke in another place had said, " We are at war in
America and Asia." Do ;no therefore band over Ireland
to that party who between Protestant and Catholic would
draw the boundary line.—(Cheers.) We are at war in
Asia and America, and the disclosures that have recently
appeared respecting the policy of Russia are calculated to
make mon pause.—( Hear, hear.) Who can rely for a
moment on the policy of France ? These arc considera-
tions which should not be lightly discussed by those
who have any real claim to the title of that party to which
I am so much attached, and to whom the real interests of
England, the integrity of the empire, and the safety of
Ireland are the ruling Conservative principles. I trust
that to this consideration we shall not be driven;
but if the House is forgetful of all save the gra-
tification of factious opposition, and antipathies na-
tional and religious, it only remains for me to pray
that we may not live to lament that we have disregarded
the monitory intimations given by the events passing
about us, when repentance shall be useless, and remorse
shall be without avail. The Hon. and Learned Member
resumed his seat amid loud and reiterated cheering, and
was shaken cordially by the hand by Mr. O'Connell, and
other Hon. Members near him.

Mr. COL QUHOUN rose to address the House, but
was met with loud cries of " Lord Stanley," " Divide,
divide," and great ❑proar.
The SPEAKER interposed to obtain a hearing for the
Hon. Member. He said it was most desirable that the
House should bring the debate to a close to-night, and no-
thing was so essential as that those who chose to remain
should give their attention to Hon. Members addressing
the House.

Mr. CO L QUH 0 UN again presented himself, and was
received with cries of " Oh, oh," " Adjourn," " Order,"
" Chair," and much confusion. When silence had been
in some degree restored, the Hon. Member said that he
was anxious to state the grounds upon which he refused
his assent to the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Hear.)
He could not approve of the distribution of patronage in
Ireland by Lord Normanby—( Here the impatience of the
House became so great that the Hon. Member was obliged
to resume his seat amidst loud calls for Lord Stanley.)
Lord STANL E Y threw himself upon the patience and
the indulgence of the House.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
He had been very anxious to hear all that could be said on
the other side of the House before he offered his opinions
on the question before them, always, of course, reserving to
his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, his an undoubted right to reply. He be-
lieved that at the conclusion of this, which his Noble
Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, would, he supposed, call
an Alexandrian discussion, the public would make their
observations upon it, and draw comparisons between the man-
ner in which the subject had been treated in that House
and the Honse of Lords, which, except in point of quantity,
would be greatly to the advantage of the other
House.—( Cheers.) He considered that the House of
Lords, in the legitimate exercise of their constitutional
functions had carefully obstained from interfering with the
rights of the other co-ordinate branch of the Legislature.
The opponents of the resolution of the House of Lords
had not any right to assert that that House had
condemned without inquiry, as they had proceeded
to inquire before they decided, while on the other
hand the House of Commons, the public would infer,
had rashly determined to praise before investigation,
and by so doing interfered with the other branch of the
Legislature. The House of Lords had carefully respected
the rights of the other House, and a comparison would be
instituted between their conduct and the House of Lords,
not to their advantage.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord
who had opened this debate had found it fit and convenient
to assert that the House of Lords bad passed a vote of
censure on the Marquis of Normanby and the Government
in general. He could not avoid expressing his sur-
prise at this expression of opinion on the part of the
Noble Lord. The vote of the House of Lords did not im-
ply a censure—true, the speeches of certain Noble Lords
who supported that motion might imply a censure, but of
those speeches they could constitutionally have no know-
ledge. Let it be boldly and frankly avowed if it was their
wish to set aside all those barriers which the Constitution
had merely interposed to prevent a collision between
the two Houses, but let them not assume a
knowledge of that which they had no right to
know. His Right Hon. Friend (the Member for Tam-
worth) understood the Constitution better, andhad deemed
it right to ascertain what had passed in the other House of
the Legislature, before founding his resolution on it ; and
he (Lord Stanley) said that this House had no right to
comment on the individual speeches of individual Members
in the House of Lords, of which they could have no
Parliamentary knowledge ; and he would say, that by the
precedence and practices of Parliament, and by their own
example, the vote of that House did not imply a censure.
He called upon them to look to the precedent they had
themselves set last year upon the Sheriffs' Appointment
Bill.—(Cheers.) His Hon. Friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer said he knew that an amendment would
not have been carried in the House of Lords. How did
they know that ? From what had taken place upon a
former occasion they had good ground for thinking other-
wise. The motion upon that occasion had been
brought forward by a speech highly criminative of
the conduct of the Government, at least as criminatory as
the speech of the Earl of Roden upon that occasion, the
amendment was carried, and the Committee was appointed.
Why then resent the appointment of a Committee of In-
quiry into the conduct of the Executive now? Last year
they did not think it necessary to come and ask for a vote
of confidence from the House of Commons ; they moved an
amendment and it was carried. They complain now that
the motion of the Earl of Roden was limited to the time that
the Marquis of Normanby was in power. It was altered I
according to their wish. Why, then, not take the same
course now ? What reason is there now that did not exist
thee ? The amendment was adopted last year, and not
upon a division; and further, the Duke of Wellington
upon that occasion said, that upon the grounds which had
been stated by the Government, he would feel himself
bound in honour to vote for the amendment. Then he
( Lord S.) said that if the Government did not ask a pre-
text for quarrelling with the House of Lords—( Loud
cries of " Oh, oh," and " cheers")—if they did not
seek to escape from difficulties of their own creation—to

escape from difficulties which were likely to overwhelm
them—(Loud cheers)—there was no earthly r.,:.nson
fcr
their not procce,iing- in the s-arne courso, And
the right of the House of Lords to inquire into the exer-
cise of the functions of the Lord Lieutenant, as they had
done last year. The House of Lords asserted that life and
property are insecure in Ireland, ar.d they asserted that had
existed since 1835.—( Cries of " Oh.") Then why net ask
to strike out these words. If such a request bad been
made, and it had been refused, then it might have
Iwo)
said that they meant to point a censure at the Lord Lieu-
tenant and the Government, and they might then have
had a right to come to the, House of Commons and ask
for that.—(" Oh, oh," and cheers ) The L,rds bad
affirmed that life and property were not secure, and there-
fore
they said it was proper that they should inquire
into the matter. He made a present of the words "of
crime and outrage since 1835."—(Cries of " Oh,
.0b."),
He was very sorry indeed to trouble the House—Le had
waited with great patience, and he was not by any means
personally anxious to speak ; but he considered that it was
a public duty forced upon him, and therefore he trusted
that he would be favoured with their attontion for a short
time. Life and property then are insecure—is that dettied ?

Mr. O'CONNELL—Yes.
Lord STANL E Y.—lt is not denied by the
Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland—it is
not denied by the Honourable Baronet the Mem-
ber for Drogheda ; nor was it denied by the Honourable
Member for iSleath, who qualified himself by stating that
it was confined to some parts of Ireland ; but, as a ge-
neral proposition, could any one venture to deny that life
and property were not safe in Irclan'i ?—( Cries of" yesi
He would not particularly go into the speech which had
been offered upon the motion in the other House ; but it
was undoubted that at the present moment—at all events
the Noble Earl offered to prove that at the Pre'
sent moment enormities were far more p:evalent
—the social bonds were extensively severed—that rotes-
tants were more assaulted—that life and property teat
more insecure. He would not say that he agreed in that
language—(loud cheers)—but the statement was made Is,
a Peer in his place in Parliament, who also asked that Co'
Bence should be taken to sec whether he could be corrobo
rated or not. He did not, however, rest upon the state-
ments of the Earl of Roden. He requested the attention
of the House while he read a few paragraphs from a leeer
which he had received from a most respectable ROI
Gentleman of most liberal opinions, with whom be bad
had no communication since he had quitted office. 11e
wished that he could make full use of that letter, for iti
would make a most powerful impression upon English
Gentlemen. As to the state of Ireland—this was a state'
ment made by a Roman Catholic Gentleman—be stated,
that at this present moment the public mind was more
disturbed than it had been at any former perit'd--
that doubt, alarm, and suspicion, had broken LIP
ciety—that the rights of property and the exercise
of the political franchise rendered a man's life insccure-;
that they were nut protected by the law of the land, but
were now at the disposal of a set of desperate ruffians, woo
had formed themse!ves into Associations, and rendered
themselves the ministers of pulite; opinion. Disobedience
to their decrees was punished by insult, and not uefre.
quently by de;ath. He further stated, not upon his own 511'
thority, nor would he ( Lord S.) for a moment give credenc,e,
to it, that the Government secretly sympathise with the abet'
tors of agitation, and that they very reluctantly allowed the
law to take its effect upon offenders. He went on to soy
that the Government of Ireland was not impartial. Ties
position of parties had indeed been reversed, but the pe°P
of Ireland had gained nothing by the change. The worst
passions of the worst part of the population had been tat
flamed and roused into revolution, under the specious he,
significant farce of justice to Ireland.—( Loud eheers
He wished that all the Gentlemen opposite would talc
the same sound and temperate views of the prospects ,°
Irelan:l as were taken by this Roman Catholic Geetie;
man.—( Loud cheers, and cries of " Oh, Ol'')f
He further went on to say, that the days ve
Elizabeth were not worse, and that if the Consersat'l
party were in office to morrow they could not by any Pes%
sibillity govern Ireland worse than it now was, and it W d
his firm conviction that the loyal and peaceably disPsca
portion of the Catholic community would receive in
protection from the Conservative Goveinment than tbe.'d
did from the present.—( Cries of " Name, name," 50
cheers.) Now that gentleman's of inions were more
liberal than his own.—( Loud laughter.) He stated faetl
but lie also stated that he (Lord S.) in making any use t°
that communication would not expose him personally °
the attacks which he was certain to suffer if his natraet
were known.—(Oh, oh.) He stated further tnaf
he was at present barely permitted to exist under the It
that had sheltered his ancestors under the penal laws• cit.
might be called an anonymous letter, but it really "5 nip
so, for the gen.leman was known to many gentlemen i;
that House, the letter had been before the Governineanf
he was of Liberal opinions, and was a Roman Catho'ic
the utmost respectability, He had also another letLeri,oo
which he would refer; it was from a gentleman ane
of the utmost respectability, for which he had
doubt the Hon. Member for Tipperary would s°llc.bo
!
He was an English Gentleman, who had been residentbie
Ireland for ten years. His Noble Friend had seen ce
letter, and he was not charging it upon the present ,be
vernment, but that was the statement he made as to
state of society between landlord and tenant.—(Cheer to
and cries of " Hear, hear.") I refer more part ctlialeit
the small resident landlords. Ile cannot attempt the sn'a be
change, can make no arrangements or improvemsnt--0,0
cannot remove a bad tenant or promote an industries s
without interfering with the involved interests offcfegsd
below him, and if crea ing a feelinr, of suspicion an",
nay
in the breast of each individual, that" each in his turn
become the victim of some unlooked-for proceedl,l;
If it be desirous of bringing up a son or a brother to e't
own pursuits, though he may have twenty farms out
lease, he is precluded from availing himself of this cis'
cumstance, being assured that any attempt to do so we,abe
endanger his own life, and most assuredly that soils,
party. This was the case with poor Weyland, the gen' is
man who was assassinated in the course of the last Suisun:,
Gentlemen, with means considerably diminished in c°l
e
parison with what their fathers possessed, find themse, s
'rvt;
compelled to look to their own exertions for supP° ise
their first object is land, and their inability to (I,esr°. to
their just and legal right to recover possession, au"-teo
and embitters all their other prejudices against 8,3(1
lower classes." That letter was a calm is
temperate description of the state of society
Ireland. He did not charge it on the 'l°s,.,,,erd
ment—God forbid he should. He only brought it for'Seti,
for the purpose of asking whether, in such a state efslred
the rights of property, at all events, could be cons' rot
to be regarded. The writer next went on to say, that gee,
improvements were now contemplated at the fir
0' s; nee
in the day of improvement was the enlargement Pre
perty. At the very first step the interests of the oecurd is
and landlord came into collision ; but the landlord fear:irn-
the tenant an insurmountable barrier to any atteiitPt oaf
provement. He was sure he had never practise",' etd
measures of harsh severity; he believed he had never Oefro
a tenant without making him satisfaction.—( Eleeflrrhere,
the Irish Members on both sides of the House. and
was nothing so common when talking of the murdersne of
outrages perpetrated in Ireland to say, " This is onlY,evett
the old quarrels arising out of the possessions of land. feel'
light way of talking was the way to encourage thnse,cteal
ings that were an insurmountable barrier to the ene " ibis
improvement of the condition of the people. Waspeseel
theoretical ? He grieved to say he had too great, r-1,01,
to know it was not theoretical.—( Hear, hear.),
summer lie ( Lord Stanley) had, and he ha' of
on a farm of some forty or fifty acres a Tri, 5
irreproachable character, and of peaceful innoffens'rs„ pol
meanour, who had resided for the whole of his life's of
a period of 60 years on that farm. And a near relat'ro°olo
his, not many years ago, an agent of Lord Stradehl
was barbarously murdered. That man had no quarre.eree'
any portion of his neighbours, but made an Sig
ment by which be was to be succeeded in est
03 farm by his second son vot
ed
industrious a young man 0.„ te-
A
industrious habits and steady character, who had ueliseli
himself to studying practical improvements, and WaS, prO.,
to have made the best tenant on his (Lord Stanley s) of
perty. An elder son, by an agreement, took his 5 j„'
801. or MU to establish himself on a farrn• Ised
went abroad that his eldest son was bidding for tbf
not many miles off. This was sufficient to reuse A
vengeance of the midnight legislation of that countTshei
visit of armed men was paid to the house of the father t 0/)07
asked for the eldest son, he was not at home ;t b eY, Id °
the younger son, against whom there was not a 511- ;1.0-
,
suspicion of making himself obnoxious by the atrocionS Tbela
of laying out his own money for improvement., and
set upon this young man in the presence of his motn' este
rflie brother, and they barbarously murdered him. e
~ rod
ties were identified—a younger son, 18 years of ae tiac
ed
the boldness and courage to say he knew, and denorontsl
the assassins. Gne other person besides two se, ,re'
were in the house at the time ; it was rhea she
she
mother. She attempted to protect her son, 7010°'
was barbarously beaten, and three of her riba:.oiset
Those parties were prosecuted at the last Limerici` trot
The evidence was clear and conclusive, There was f tbc,
shadow of contradiction in the cross.examinationtedorea
witnesses, but the servant-boy, and the servant girl Teo
not identify the parties whom they bad seen to th'
young man swore positively and distinctly I the cir
fact of the parties, but the Jury, though nets
cumstances of the corroboration were perfect*: sots ,",d
could not pass a sentence of death on three prise) 0'
the identification of a single person. He (Lord Silespl.r;
not complain of the verdict, but he lamented it, f
owe:
because those persons were at this moment' th,
and at large, exulting in the success 'beers.;
crime which they had committed.—( Hear and ceretted
He knew not whether he had yet been able t° Pd to sP„,
either the father or the youngest son, who venterethe P
pear as a witness, to resume their occupation en, is esini„,t,
perty. Again he stated he 'did not charge tai
bet Pa
on the administration of Lord Norm:lrby, state
asked whether, when circumstances of this kind werdorib'S
to the British House of Parliament, it was an enPer such 1
offence on the part of the House to declare 0° itte.
state of crime demanded an investigation of a C°rllieebi:
—( Cheers.) Was it surprising, when Gentlemen for 04
Hon. and Gallant Friend, the Member for Slig°; discord
first time for these last three years found the den:ohely
friglitt
introduced into this once peaceful county, which tfeend
have traversed on the wildest ..tte tbe tee
inthe night—when
county of Tipperary, the county of estn
_aged e
they 1100'
and Learned Member for Dublin opposite, bf:no__.whei:e
gallant population were Precursors to a
rr,",, that tolL,
they saw, as the Noble Lord confessed last nis,n.t'ose from
disruption of all the ties of social intercoursevt: 00t;
political excitement and
election mattera—was it a,tonishin, that
tn7.,orscs
and Gallant Fined should call on the
51ous:i (t)csts f
trh'et
political agitation, ar .g II
to
inquire how it was that amid all the election c
1 int° a
state of any society, but that with thei
all their political difference, had never enteredl.icttree I,.eaatrsbe
new element had been introduced, and t 'at.t
jafr.°lnisewor-d- were,
says and knows, the agents elm introduced i
st_u_,Ceec.rr.s_
the favoured of the present Administrationer
tot botanosr,
What had the Commons affirmed in ans.d.vernn
t'oury of
10,
If the Lords had passed a resolution ci,otiL a
ord (J. gu"elolf
Normanby's Government, the Nob!. •
tbe
would have been justified in asking _
The cc"' it Wa
the Commons.—( Hear, hear. ) ds• 14°sc
would have been provoked by the Lor • opieionthen

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