The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-09 00:00:00

he hoped ber Majesty's Government would derive some
advantage from that friendly advice, and would at least avoid
those quicksands of experiment and expedience on which
they had well-nigh foundered, and given great advantage
to their adversaries in the treatment of this subject. Before

he noticed the prominent points in the speech of the Right
Hon. Baronet, who it was said had begun and ended all the

discussion of the subject he wished to say a few words on what
had fallen from the Hon. Member for Middlesex. The

course which that Hon. Member had pursued showed that he
felt the pressure of the justice of the case, and that it was ne-
ce:;sary for him to employ his influence for the support of a
relation who was on the Pension List. Now, how mauy ancient
Dowagers were there on that List ?—and he protested, not-
withstanding the delicate insinuation of the Right Honourable
Baronet, that with these ancient Dowagers he (Mr. Harvey)
never had aught to do—(a laugh)—he did not know how many
of those darling charmers, the List taking its rise back so far
back as 1764, there might be upon it, who had not in that
House a friend like the Honourable Member for Middlesex,

to stand up for them, and defend their case as the Honourable
Gentleman had defended his friend who had held an appoint-

ment in the sunny island of Malta. He ( Mr. H. )confessed that
he had rather lagged behind in the debate, in the hope that other
Hon. Members might start up, like the Hon. Member for
Middlesex, and defend their near relations from the imputation

of having had their pensions improperly bestowed upon them.
Many Hon. Members had near relations on that List ; for
there were many persons on the List who had not been on it
so long that all their family connections were extinct. There
were some who bad been placed on the List within the last
seven or eight years, whose minds must still be impressed with
gratitude for the rewards which they had received for their ser-
vices. Why did not the friends of those persons stand forward
in the same way the Hon. Member for Middlesex had done?
Was it that they would not take an unfair advantage of those
less fortunate individuals who had not the benefit of powerful
connections; and as they meant to vote against the Committee
they would vote in silence ?—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But
it appeared that Hon. Members could not bear the indignity
that persons of high blood, connected with the first families
in the country, would be exposed to by having their claims
examined by a Committee of the House of Commons. Was
it to be endured, they said, that the feelings of honourable
persons and of right honourable persons of eighty years of age
were to be thus outraged ? All sympathy with such persons
was, it seemed, fair and proper, compared with sympathy
with the hardened feelings and miserable condition of—
(Cries of " No, no," and cheers, which prevented us from
hearing the conclusion of the sentence.) He (Mr. Harvey)
was now anxious to come to that speech which had been cha-
racterised as the alpha and omega of the debate, as having
comprehended in it every thing that could be said on the sub-
ject. He willingly admitted that the Right Hon. Baronet had
introduced into that speech every argument both for and against
himself, distorting and misstating them with an ingenuity that
was most remarkable. I( the Right Hon. Baronet had made
that speech in a court of law, any experienced critic who had
listened to him would have exclaimed, " There's the ablest
man I ever heard, with the worst cause that I ever knew."—
( A laugh.) After dwelling on Lord Althorp's letter, and on
Lord Althorp's resolutions, the Right Hon. Baronet proceeded
to dwell on what he stated to be the fact, that these pensions
were made the subjects of family settlements—things which
he (Mr. Harvey) begged to observe were very different from
Poor-law settlements.—( A laugh.) Really, any one would
presume from hearing the Right Hon. Baronet's statements,
that these pensions were all made the subjects of settlements,
placed in the hands of numerous trustees, and secured by deeds
as long as the Right Hon. Baronet himself would draw.
Sir R. PEEL observed that that was a quotation.
Mr. HARVEY said that it certainly was a quotation, but
the Hon. Baronet had contrived to make that quotation one of
the most prominent parts of his speech. When he made it,
he turned round and addressed himself to the lords of the soil
at his back.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon.
Baronet knew that he was appealing, not only to powerful
heads, but to iron-chests; he knew that he was appealing to
persons who would be highly indignant at the notion of having
all their family papers ransacked, and all their contingent re-
mainders exposed.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Of thi3 he
(Mr. Harvey) could assure all who might be interested in the
subject, that if he were on the Committee, and it should be
made to appear with reference to any lady on the list, whe-
ther she was old and ugly, or whether she was young and

beautiful, that her pension had been made the subject o
a marriage settlement, he would endeavour to smile appro
bation of the circumstance, and would pass the case with
out further notice.—(Great laughter.) But let the House
consider these facts. There were 1,300 grants on the Pen-
sion List ; many of them under 50/. in amount. Taking the
whole of the grants, the average amount of each was only 18d.
Now, really the idea of making a pension of 50/. or orated
franted
45/ ,
to be received as long as the person to whom it was g
old or young, might live, or as the grantor might live (how-
ever the usage might render the latter consideration unimpor-
tant), the object of a settlement, with three or four trustees,
with a deed as long as the land which it conveyed, was a fancy
so extravagant that only such a skilful debater as the right Ho-
nourable Baronet, knowing the character of the persons whom
he was addressing, would have ventured to indulge in it—
( Hear, hear.) The right Honourable Baronet also contended
that in some cases these pensions had been made the subjects
of assignments for the pyment of debts—for that they
had been made over to parties for that purpose. Now
although he (Mr. Harvey) was perfectly satisfied that
there was nothing to warrant any such supposition, he
was ready to declare that wherever he found such an as-
signment, or such a security, he would readily afford
protection to it. The right Honourable Baronet also
observed that Mr Burke was decidedly opp( sed to any
investigation of the pension list ; and he had compared
the power of the Crown, at the time Mr. Burke made
that statement, a ith its power at recent pm iods. It cer-
tainly was well known that in 1780 there was scsrcely
any limit to the extravagant grants of the Crown, which
exercised what was conceived to be an unbounded right of
grants on what were called the land revenues of the Crown.
To such a criminal extent gas this practice carried, that a
sum was granted which would have been abundantly sufficient
at the present day to maintain the most splendid royal esta-
blishment. Such was the cupidity that surrounded courts that
the largest portion of those revenues was at that time granted
away, and was now in the hands of some of the noblest fami-
lies in the country.—( Ilear, hear, hear.) And well might Mr.
Burke say, after he had arrested such an unbounded flood of
corruption. that he did not care whether a subject so compara-
tively trifling as the Pension List were to become a matter of
inquiry or not. The Right Hon. Gentleman who made the
motion had asserted that this was not a vulgar question of
pecuniary calculation, but that it was a question of moral
profit, that it was a question of eternal justice, that it was a
question that should be decided with reference to the will of
that power
4‘ Who sees with equal eye, as Lord of all,
A hero perish, or a sparrow fail."
But it was maintained on the other side that that was not
the case, but that the country would view with very dif-
ferent feelings the deprivation of the persons on the Pen-
sion List of their incomes, and the deprivation of allowances
which had occurred under the new Poor-laves to persons who
had spent all their lives in hard labour.—(" No, no.") So
it had been stated. The House had been asked if there was
any comparison between the ssinpathy excited for the per-
sons whose names were on the Pension List, and the sym-
pathy excited for merely the aged widow s of the poor, and
the decrepid labourers, rendered decrepid by toil rather
than by ago—(for there would be found no pauper in the
country whose claim went back as far as 1764)—worn
down by severe work, by privations, by exposure to
weather, and by all the other hardships to which the poorer
classes were subject.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
" This," continued the Honourable Gentleman, "is to be
found in your own Reports ; and arc not the temples of your
living God—the places into which the poor are invited to
enter to find comfort in this world, and the assurance that
in another all inequality shall be removed—are not the doors
of these temples placarded with the names of the aged
matrons and ancient fathers who have toiled to enrich the
soil upon which they were born, and from which you, its here-
ditary possessors, have derived your wealth—( Cheers)—are
not their names from day to day, and from week to week
posted upon your church doors to become the objects of the
most searching scrutiny, for the purpose of ascertaining
whether by some miserable contrivance they may not be made
to maintain themselves, or be fixed for life upon the support
of relatives whose condition in the world, perhaps, is but
slightly superior to their own 2—(Cheers.) But then we are
told that under the righteous decree of eternal justice there is
a distinction between the artificial forms of society and this
humble but most useful class.—(Cheers.) Let the Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, who are influenced by so nice a sense of
delicacy upon this subject, find comfort in the assurance that
no individual whose sentiments coincide with my own can be
guilty of acting with an iron heart towards any of the persons
whose names are upon this list of pensions. The very im-
putation that we bring against those who have acted with
such unfeeling severity towards the poor will be found
to be the protection of the rich ; and unless you are pre-
prepared to say that the persons whose names are placed
upon this list—that the relatives of many of the Hon. Gentle-
men opposite are ashamed and afraid to undergo the ordeal
to which they are to be exposed—unless Honourable Gentle-
men are prepared to say that, I would ask, can anything be
more unkind, can anything be more severe, can anything be
more cruel, than the course they propose to pursue in denying
this inquiry ?—( Hear, hear.) Whether it be a prejudice that
has been fostered by ungenerous imputations, or whether it be
grounded upon facts and circumstances that cannot be denied,
it has become an universal sentiment that an inquiry ought to
take place. —( Hear, hear.) It is a sentiment that runs through
every class and every rank—it is entertained by persons of
every grade and of all ages, from the richest to the poorest,
from the youngest to the oldest—it is common to all ; and you
who will vote against the inquiry believe and know that there
are many names upon the list which you are sorry to see there.
Is it not a fact that there are persons, whose names are upon
this list, who have for their relatives persons proud of their
heraldic bearings, proud of their ancient families, and of
their extensive and almost boundless possessions ? Do you
not find connections of this kind upon the list? And is it
not a matter of deep shame and deep regret with those who
cannot help it, that persons who have the means of doing so
do not interfere to rescue their Honourable and Right Honour-
able relatives from the imputations which are cast upon them
in consequence of having their names placed upon this list.
—( Cheers.) If I were upon the Committee, I have no diffi-
culty in stating to the House the course by which I should
be guided. And here, without indulging in the slightest
suspicion as to the course which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer proposes to pursue, I must be allowed to
say that I do not subscribe to the limitation which lie
proposes to place upon the inquiry. I gather from him
that ho will place the onus of establishing the impropriety
of contested claims, not upon the party who urges the claim,