The Sun.
London, England, 1830-05-07 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, M Y 7, 1830.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE. OF LORDS—(LAST NIGHT).
The Earl of DERBY presented a peition from Lan-
caster against the renewal of the East India Company's
Charter.

The Earl of ELDON presented a petition from Rich-
mond, in Surrey, praying a revisal of the Insolvent
Debtors' Act.

Lord •TEYNHAIf presented a petition from the corn
inspectors of Dublin, praying for a better intercourse be-
tween the inspectors of the two countries, iu order to im-
prove the method of taking the averages.
The Earl of ORFORD presented a petition from King's
Lynn, Norfolk, praying the abolition of the punishment of
death for forgery.
Lord CLIFFORD presented pe'itions from various places
in Devon, and from Chertsey, complaining of the duties on
coals.

Mr. Crafer brought up an account of the quantity of
Wheat imported for Horne Consumption.
Earl STANHOPE presented a petition from die paper-
makers of Kent, praying the imposition of a duty on ma-
chinery.

The NOBLE LORD also presented a similar petition from
the paper makers of Surrey.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from Norfolk against the Matt Duties.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY gave notice of
Lis intention to move, on Monday next, for leave to bring
in a Bill to facilitate compositions for tithes in England
and Wales.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from the
seamen of the River Tyne, complaining of dues exacted
from them for the support of Greenwich Hospital.
The Earl of DARNLEY presented a petition from
Tullamore, in the King',, County, praying for the exten-
sion of Poor Laws to Ireland.

The Earl of LIMERICK denied that the petition ex-
pressed the tense of any of the gentry of the place, and
expressed an opinion that poor laws would be the ruin of
Ireland.

The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL presented a petition
from some individuals in Foxford, in the county of Mayo,
praying an amendment in the law relating to ecclesiastical
offences, so that there might be less difficulty in punishing
debauchery when committed by a person in orders. The
petitioners prayed this amendment in consequence of the
bad conduct of a Protestant clergythan, whosa name we
could not each, but there bring an informality in the
prayer of the petition, it was rejected at the suggestion of
the Duke of Rutland.

The -NOBLE EARL then presented another petition on
the same subject.
On the question that the petition du lie on the table,
The Earl of ELDON said it seemed to him to be a sort
of Irish petition. It prayed their Lordships, as he un-
derstood it, to compel the clergy of Ireland voluntarily to
enter into a composition for tithes.
The question was negatived, and the petition accord-
ingly rejected.
NATIONAL DEBT AND REVENUE.

Viscount GODERICH said, after the time of their
Lordships had been so long occupied with five petitions,
one of which had been withdrawn and another• rejected,
he was afraid that he could not expect that their Lord-
ships would pardon him, if, upon a.subject so -uninviting as
that of public credit, he prefaced the motion with which
he meant to conclude, by making some observations on
the subject to which that motion referred. He hoped he
should find an apology, and even a justification, in the fact
that the subject, which was of great importance at all
times, at present was by particular circumstances rendered
so additionally important, as to compel and command
public consideration. That the national debt was a sub-
ject of great importance no man could doubt, and at pre •
sent it must be considered that its amount was so great
that no less than half of all the money levied by taxation
went to pay the charges for it. Owing to the great
pressure occasioned by those charge•, our present system
of taxation was very grievous, for it consisted principally
of taxes raised at the moment under the influence of ne-
cessity, being intended to supply the immediate demand of
the day, and little or no consideration having been paid
to the ultimate consequences of taxes no imposed. The
subject required additional importance at the present
mo-
ment, by the circumstance that a large part of the corn-
:nullity was in great difficulties and distress, and looking
with dissatisfaction and disfavour at what was supposed
to aggravate the pressure of the public burdens. Ac-
cordingly it was found that many opinions were now pre.
valent respecting the public debt, representing that the
public suffered from the operation—that it was an into-
lerable grievance, and it was considered that the pressure
was so great that no relief could be obtained, unless by
laying ►iolent hands on the debt, and committing a gross
act of injustice and spoliation on the public creditor, by
forcibly diminishing the charge, and forcibly reducing
the rate of interest. That he considered would he a most
fatal event, leading to the greatest possible mischief, and
there was no part of his Majesty's Speech delivered at the
opening of the Session, in which be more heartily concur-
red, than in the last part, where his Majesty recommended
Parliament, " whatever view it might take of the public
difficulties, sot to lose sight of the importance of main-
taining unimpaired the public faith and the public credit."
To that he entirely and cordially subscribed, and deeply
should he lament it, if ever that advice were rejected by
Parliament, and it should adopt the opinion that it was
necessary to act in what he thought an unjustitiAle man-
ner towards the public creditor. It appeared that the
view many persons were disposed to take of the National
Debt, arose, in a great measure, front the actual pressure
of the debt; but in fact, it arose ,from the wrong view
those persons entertained of the possibility of diminishing
or getting rid of the debt. In the first place, it was sup-
posed, that since the termination of the war, little or no
progress had been made in diminishing, the burden of the
debt, and it was represented as an act of insanity, as well
as injustice, to attempt to pay off in a rectified metallic
currency, a debt contracted in a depreciated currency. It
was represented that all classes in the country had been
for many years suffering under difficulties and distress,
which were now at its acme: that the only class which
had been free from these difficulties was the class of public
creditors, who, it was represented, grew wealthy and
profited at the expence of the other classes of the com-
munity. It was also said, that it had become nearly
impossible for the country to go on under such a
grievous burden, and that it was both unreasonable and
unjust t► attempt to preserve faith with the public cre-
ditor in the midst of increasing difficulties and a continu-
ally failing revenue. The opinions were widely diffused—
he had read them in many publications—he had seen
them in resolutions adopted at public meetings, and he
had heard them read in petitions at the table of that
House. It was because he conceived that these opinions
were founded in great errors of fact, and were supported
by many fallacies in reasoning, and because he thought it
might be shown that there were errors in fact and falla-
cies of reasoning concerning the National Debt, that he bad
taken the liberty to call their Lordships' attention to the
subject, thinking it of public importance to show that
some current opinions wore extremely erroneous. First,
as to the amount of the Nation d Debt, and the efforts that

had been made since the war to reduce the charge. It was
generally stated that there had been little or nothing done,
and that the whole capital of the debt had not in fifteen
years been reduced more than the sum of forty millions.
If that were true, very little indeed had been done ; but

it was inaccurate as to the fact. Even in looking at the
question as to the amount of capital reduced, it appears
from the figures that it amounted to sixty millions. But
the great fallacy in this matter was to argue—and this was
an aasumption continually made—as if there existed any
such thing as a capital of the National Debt ; there was
no such thing as a capital of this debt. He denied that
there was any capital corresponding to the debt due to the
public creditor. An ordinary debt was composed of ca-
pital lent to the debtor ; it was competent to the borrower
to repay what he borrowed at his own convenience, and it
was competent to the lender to demand back his principal.
Of these two conditions only one was applicable to the
National Debt. By the contract the State had entered
into with its debtors, it had the right to pay them off
whenever it was convenient or advisable for the State to
do so; but, by the terms of the contract, the public cre-
ditor could never claim from the State a single shilling of
what ha had advanced. The utmost which he was en-
titled to claim—and to that alone had the State
pledged itself—was the payment of an annuity—
(Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington.)—That
was all the public debt consisted of, and the evil
and pressure it caused all arose from the necessity

of paying certain annuities, which were either permanent
or temporary. That was what the contract specified. It
was a great error to argue this important question on
the supposed immense capital of the debt. The only
question for the public was, in what degree the pressure
occasioned by the charge for this debt was felt. He
would compare, not the nominal amount of the debt, but
the charge at different periods ; and he would compare it
when the charge was. highest. There would be one ac-
count among those he meant to take the liberty to call for,
which would put the facts on this part of the case before
their Lordships, but he had been able to make out from
documents laid before the other House of Parliament,
some facts which would explain to their Lordships what
that information would be when produced. According
to the view he took of the debt, it appeared to him that
the amount of the debt had been reduced very consider-
ably beyond the amount of what was ordinarily supposed
to be the case. The year when the charge was the
highest—the funded and unfunded debt being estimated
together as they generally were in practice, and had been
frequently 'connected in laws—the year when the charge
for both funded and unfunded debt was the highest, was
1816. The total charge for permanent and terminable
annuities, and for the expence of management for the
public debt in 1816, was 30,618,055/. The total charge
for unfunded debt for the same year was 2,290,6961. The
total charges therefore, for the funded and unfunded debt
at that period, was 32,938,7511., or very nearly 33 mil-
lions. At that period the charge was the highest ; and be
would compare that sum with the charge now incurred
for the payment of the debt. In 1829, the total charge
for the permanent anti terminable annuities, and for the
management of the debt, was 28,277,1171., being a di- '
minution, as compared to the same head of expence in
1816, of 2,370,938/. The interest on Exchequer Bills in
1829 was 878,4941., being less than the interest on Ex-
chequer Bills in 1816 by 1,112,202/. The total diminu-
tion of charge for the National Debt, as compared to
1816, being 3,783,140/. That was, he thought, a pretty
considerable sum. Compared with the reduction which
was usually assumed to have taken place, it must be found
a great advantage. It was little or nothing to have re-
duced the nominal capital of the debt forty millions at
three per cent., which would only be an annual saving of
1,200,0001. ; but by what he had stated, it would appear
to their Lordships, that the actual saving was two millions
and a half more. It was unfair, then—it was in fact an
error, to describe the reduction of the debt in the common
way, by the nominal amount of the capital reduced. But
it would be taking an imperfect view of the subject were
he not to refer to an operation which was then in progress,
and which, when completed, as it would be in 1831, would
make the diminution more considerable than he had men-
tioned. He alluded to the plan for reducing the Four per
Cents. He had never entertained a doubt that this mea-
sure was practicable, nor had he ever entertained a doubt
that it wss just.—(Hear.) A great clamour had been
raised, and a great deal of nonsense had been both written
and said, and several steps had been taken with a view to
enhance the difficulties of the undertaking. or to defeat it
altogether. Those efforts had been unavailing, and indeed
it was absurd to suppose they could have been successful.
That the measure was not unjust, the conditions of the
contract would distinetly prove. The stock now re-
duced was originally the Five per Cent. Stock, and it
was the same stock as was reduced in 1822, and then
it was distinctly stated that it would be liable after
a certain period to be reduced still further, if cir-
cumstances made it convenient. When his Noble
Friend (Lord Bexley) carried that reduction into effect,
with what he might call marvellous success—for it was as
great a financial operation as ever was undertaken—the
terms of the new contract were, that the holders of the
Four per Cent. stock then created should be liable to have
it reduced at the expiration of seven years.:That period ex-
pired in October, 1829, and that stock was now liable to
be reduced whenever the Government might find the re-
duction convenient. If the Government had used any
means to force up the stocks it might have been unjust,
but it was impossible to believe that it had ever contem-
plated any such thing. If it could conveniently reduce
this interest, the Government would have committed a
great blunder, it would not have done its duty, if it had
not carried the measure into execution. When that mea-
sure was completed, the saving on the interest of the debt
would not be less than 778,0001. next year. Another
saving made during the present year would be on the in-
terest of Exchequer Bills, which would not exceed
750,0001., being 128,0001. less than the charge for 1829.
If their Lordships were to add the saving on the interest
of Exchequer Bills to the saving by the reduction of the
Four per Cents., their Lordships would find that the
actual saving—
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that by a reduc-
tion of the interest on Exchequer Bills there would also
be a saving.
N iscount GODERICIL in contionation—That made
the argument he was stating so much the stronger: but
without including that, the reduction of the charge on the
National Debt for tie next year, as compared with 1816,
would not be less than 4,680,0001. It might be supposed
that this was overrated, that something might be demanded
for the dissentients, and therefore he would state it at
4,500,000/. This was, he contended, a very considerable
reduction. The sum of 4,500,0001. interest Was equiva-
lent to a reduction of 150 millions of capital at three per
cent. If in 1816 it had been stated that in the year
1830 the National Debt would be reduced 150 millions—
if his Noble Friend near him, Lord Bexley, had then made
such a statement, he would no doubt have been regarded
as a visionary—he would have been charged with exciting
false hopes, and of giving flattering accounts to delude
Parliament and the country. It was, however, a fact,
that in fifteen years the annual charge had been reduced
4,500,000/., which was equivalent to a capital of 150
millions—(Hear, hear.)—That statement would show
their Lordships that it was a great mistake to assert that
no progress had been made in reducing the charge for the
public debt since the war. There were some parts of the
Noble Earl's (Stanhope's) opinions in which he could not
agree. The Noble Earl, with many other persons, saw
it would be impossible, and was unjust to ccntinue to pay
' the interest of a debt in metallic currency, which hid
been contracted in a depreciated et indard. If the
statement on which this statement was founded
was correct, he might admit the deduction ; but it
was a great error to assume, as his Noble Friend did,
that the whole amount of the debt was contracted in a de-
preciated currency—(Hear, hear, from Lord Bexley.)—
Nothing so extravagant, though some people nourished
all sorts of extravagant opinions, could be rationally
entertained. Admitting a certain depreciation, as there
was no real capital of the debt, its only effect would be to
enhance tire charge for the debt. If he were to extend
the depreciation over as long a period as possible, it would
not amount to 20 per cent. on the debt, anti only amount
to 20 per cent. on the whole charge. That would be the
whole effect of the depreciation on the debt. His Lord-
ship here entered into a lengthened argument, to show
that whatever the effects of the depreciation might have
been on the debt, they bad been fully balanced by the re-
duction of the charge which had taken place sine the
peace. He contended also that, in opposition to the ef-
fects of the depreciation, their Lordships should weigh
the advantages of a low rate of interest, which had ena-
bled the Government to reduce the interest of the debt
and save so much to the public. Low prices, of which
some persons complained, he described as a benefit to-the
community. With respect to the third point—that the
revenue was continually falling—he denied that this was
the case; on the contrary, he showed, though several
millions of taxes had been taken off, that the amount of
Customs and Excise was greater in 1829 than in any
former year. There being neither a falling revenue nor
an increasing debt, he looked on the sources of the country
as yet unimpaired—as able to meet all the burdens imposed
on her, and to preserve her credit and honour unimpaired.
He now begged to call their Lordships' attention to the
last four years : from which he thought that they would
perceive, that there was little foundation for the assertion
that the revenue was falling off, and that there was no
hope of getting through their difficulties but by making
an inroad upon the public credit. With respect to the
Customs, the average receipt for the years 1826, 1827.
and 1828, had been 17,470,000/. ; while the receipt last
year was 17,211,0001. From this it would certainly ap-
pear that there was a falling off of 250,000/. .But when
that only occurred in a❑ account that embraced mil-
lions, he did not think that there was any thing in
the circumstance to frighten one out of one's senses.
If they would look to . the Excise, that presented a
different result. The average for the years he had
already mentioned was 19,456,000/., while the receipts
last year had been 19,540,0001. For Stamps, the average

PRICE 7D.

on the three years was 6,83,6001:; while, for the last
year, it amounted to 7,101.000/. The average bf the
Asses,ed and Land Taxes dur:ng those three years was
4,773,0001., while last year it was 4,896,000/. The
average on the Postage of Letters for the three years was
1,510,0001.. and lest year the receipts were 1,181,000/.
—a small falling oft, but attributable, he believed, to some
diminution in the charges on bills of extlhange, sae. rather
than any fair falling off. But if they took the whole of
these together, how did the case stand ? The whole of
the average for the three years already stated amounted to
50,087,0001., while the receipts for the last year were
50,200,000/.—(llear, hear.)—But perhaps he might be
tAI, in answer to this, that the revenue was now falling
off.—(Hear, hear.)—He would adroit that it was so; hut
he thought it was the height of timidity to he prophesying
the most disastrous conaeluences because one quarter was
falling in itc due amount. It was otily by the average of
years, as be had done, that they had any chance of arriving
at the real truth ; and though he admitted that every
thing that could be done to diminish the expenditure of
the country ought to be done, he did not think that it was
by fear and trembling that they were to arrive at a happy
result. If that were to be the course I:ensued by this
great country, we should soon lid havitrg every puny whip-
stet. taking the sword from our side, and we should not
long be able to bold up our beads in the Commonwealth
of Europe. It might he contended against him, that
although reductions had been made, it would not be in
the power of Government to effect any more fur some
years to come. That possibly might be correct ; but the
deduction which he drew front that position was, that it
was the imperative duty of the Parliament, and Still mere
of the Government, to look with increased vigilance to the
whole system of taxation, to see how far the revenue was
diminished in consequence of the mode in which the tax-
ation was distributed, and to inquire to what extent
productive industry was unnecessarily fettered.
They were also bound to attend particularly to the
question of how far any diminution in the ex-
penditure could he effected. In saying this he did
not at all mean to charge the present Government with
having neglected that consideration. In the situation
which he had formerly held, it had been his lot to be fue-
. quently charged with profusion, and he had always pro-
tested against the justice of that accusation. So far from
bringing the same charge against the present Govern-
ment, it appeared to him that the Noble Duke lad gone
to work with considerable vigour, and the only doubt that
he had on his mind on the subject was, whether the re-
... . .

ductions were not too extensive to leave the establishment
sufficiently effective ; hut, of course, on this topic, the
Noble Duke was a much better judge than he could pre-
tend to be. There was another topic to which he wished
to allude, although it was not so strictly connected with
the subject. He referred to the Exchequer Bills. Ile
understood that the amount now outstanding in Exche-
quer Bills was twency.five millions ; of this amount he
had understood that six millions had been held by the
Bank of England ; but on inquiry he found that the
amount the Bank held in connection with the Govern-
ment was only sixteen or seventeen hundred thousand, and
that the rest had been purchased in the ordinary way in
the money market. But even though this was the case,
he thought that so large a sum as six millions, however
procured, ought not to remain in the hands of the Bank,
as, when the Charter of that Company came to be re-
newed, such a circumstance would be calculated vet y na-
turally to embarrass the Government in the consideration
of that question. The remaining amount of Exchequer
Bills ought also to be looked to, for in the event of any
movement in the market, they might be found a very
dangerous sort of security, as they were, to use a vulgar
expression, a very ticklish article to have to deal with ;
though at present, no doubt, they were a very eligible in-
vestment for money, and bore a high rate of interest. The
Government was now empowered in employing all surplus
revenue for the purpose of reducing the funded or the un-
funded debt ; and he, therefore, thought that it would act
wisely in reducing the amount of the Exchequer Bills as
rapidly as possible. He had now stated all he had to say;
and in making the observations that had fallen from him,
It's only wish was to have removed what appeared to him
to be erroneous impressions. For his own part he could

not see any thing to be alarmed at, and, with the excep-
tion of the pressure occasioned by the debt, there was no-
thing to excite gloomy apprehensions in the minds of any
person. The reason why he felt most concerned at such
views being taken by any person, was from the effect
which the expression of them might have on other nations.
If desponding language were to be held by this country,
nothing but danger could surround her, and the alarm
once given, he would not give many years' purchase for
the peace of Europe. The consequence of this would he
that England would be driven from her high station she

bad hitherto held—an object at which all other nations
thought that it was their interest to aim. The influence

of England on the Continent was of course to a great ex-
tent founded on the confidence that foreign nations had in
the honour, integrity, and good faith of this country; but
all this dependence was essentially built on a conviction
of our strength ; and it was because he felt that that
strength was not yet assailed, that he thought those would
find themselves in a mistake who should try to drive her
from her position. England still, in his opinion, hail all
her wonted resources within herself; and if the time
should ever come when she was to be attacked, lie did not
doubt that—
., Our castle's strength would laugh the siege to scorn."

The Duke of WELLINGTON—He considered that

the Government and the people were under the greatest
obligation to his Noble Friend for the subject which he
had introduced to their notice, and the manner in which
he had treated it.—(Hear:) He should not mention the
effect of the admirable speech of his Noble Friend, either
by commenting upon its matter, or by repeating over
again any thing that he had said. In general he agreed
with all that had fallen from his Noble Friend, and he con-
gratulated the House in having laid before them so ad-
mirable a statement of the true state of the National Debt,
and of the interest paid by the nation on that debt. There
was only one part of the statement of his Noble Friend to
which he must confess he could not give his entire con-
currence. The part to which he alluded was that in
which his Noble Friend had, with his customary candour,
commented upon that topic which usually went by the
name of the equitable adjustment. His Noble Friend.
had admitted that the increase of the debt was occasioned
by the depreciation of the currency, and had stated the.
amount of that at 20 per cent. It was certainly true that
there was a large increase in the price of commodities
during the depreciation of the currency ; but the allowance
that his Noble Friend had made appeared to him to be
a very large allowance indeed ; but, at all events, by the
measures that had taken place, there had been an actual
saving of one hundred and fifty millions to the country—a
circumstance which ought to give them hopes that every
thing that was required by the country might be done
with good faith and honour, instead of resorting to the
national bankruptcy that was recommended by some—be
begged to say that he was not in this alluding to his Noble
Friend, Earl Stanhope.—( A laugh.)—His Noble Friend
had concluded by some observations on the Unfunded
Debt. It was true that the amount of Exchequer Bills
was 25 millions ; but of that four millions were involved
in the public works, and there likely to be permanent, be-
side the six millions that were held by the Bank of Eng-.
land ; so tl,at instead of 25 millions there were only 15
millions actually in circulation ; and it did not appear to
hin► that that amount was too large, considering the pre-
sent state of the credit of the eountry. All these matters,
however, would of course obtain the anxious consideration
of the Government; and he was sure that the advice of
his Noble Friend would have weight with the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, as well as with himself, when the sul.-
ject came to be taken under consideration. He could not
allow the excellent observations of his Noble Friend to pass
without these few remarks, and hoped that it would be
found that the speech which he had made would have its
due effect both with the Parliament and the Government.
Eatl STANHOPE said that he must contend, in
spite of the flattering picture which the Noble Viscount
had drawn of the strength of the country, that it would be
impossible for it.in its present state to go to war. Nor
could there be any hopes of its again returning to that con-
dition, unless a Bank Restriction was adopted. With re-
sptct to an equitable adjustment, he was a decided friend
to that measure, and he must deny that he had ever said
that such an adjustment would be inequitable, though he
knew that such expressions had been attributed to him : on
the contrary, he thought, that it would be an equitable ad..
justment to all intents and purposes, and it was for that
reason that lie contended in favour of it. Of this he felt
perfectly assured, that they must either proceed to an

equitable adjustment, or n-”, 4 sent tl as aTteveti‘ess
of the currency. -
Lord BEXLEY observed, that the Nolii,! Lord near hitt,
contended that the country could not go :a war without
Bank restriction, so long a' the war might lo.t. Nsw
thought that nothing, could b• more impolitic than sw.ch a
measure: i* would be the most tifectull means of pre-
venting their going to Traro
Lord CARNARVON said, that that ere:lit which the
just confidence of mercantile men ertabled them to give
each other in this country, was the cured ravens of keep-
ing the capital of the country in a state of activity, and
gave ifs an advantage over the nations of the continent,
which we ought not to forego by recurring to a paper cur-
rency.—The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. Sheppard, from the India Board, presented papers
by order of the House..—Their Lordships then adjourned.