The Sun.
London, England, 1863-02-24 00:00:00

return. The system was a disgrace to the country, and
deterred many from entering the service,
The motion was then agreed to, and the house went into
committee of supply.

The Navy Estimates.
The house then resolved itself into Committee of Supply
on these estimates, and iu bringing them forward)
Lord C. PAGET said—lf I were to state to the commit-
tee as a matter of congratulation that I was in a position to
propose to them a considerable reduction of the navy esti-
mates, without being able at the same time to show them
that the reduction would be carried into effect without in-
terfering with the efficiency of the service, I do not think I
should be making a statement which would furnish a sub-
ject for congratulation to the house or to the country. If
however I can show you that, owing to the great generosity
of Parliament, we have been enabled to make enormous
exertions during the last few years, and to place the navy,
both as regard personnel and material, on a satisfactory
footing, then I may, I trust, be allowed to possess a fair
claim to congratulate the committee on the prospect of our
maintaining it in that position, while we effect a great reduc-
tion in our outlay for the purpose. That the navy was never
in a more efficient state than at the present moment, both so
far as the seamen are concerned, and as relates to our pro-
gress in the construction of that class of ships which has
lately come into vogue, I can, I think, notwithstanding the
suspicions of any hon. friend the member for Norfolk,
without difficulty prove. I may add that during the de-
bates which may take place on the subject, I shall, if
possible, refrain from alluding to other Powers at all—(hear,
hear)—for I have found that comparisons between our naval
resources and those of foreign nations produce somewhat of
ill-feeling. I therefore deem it desirable that we should
confine ourselves as much as possible to our own affairs.
(Hear, hear.) Now, the total vote which I have to propose
to the committee for the naval service for the years 1863 4
amounts to £10,736,032, the estimate for 1862-3 having
been £11,794,305, showing a decrease of £1,058,273 in the
estimate for the present as compared with that for the last
year. This decrease will be found to pervade the whole of
the estimates with a few exceptions, the only real increase
which occurs under any head this year being in the vote for
the transport service—a vote over which the Admiralty has
no control, inasmuch as the instructions on which it de-
pends emanate from the War-office, and we are bound to
carry them into effect. The cause of the increase in the
present instance is, I may observe, mainly due to the re-
moval of troops in large numbers to distant stations.
There are, for instance, two regiments to be sent to New
Zealand and others to be brought back, the cost of which
proceeding is no less than £61,576, exclusive of the suste-
nance of the men. In all the other votes there is, I may
say, a decrease. In vote No. 1, that which has reference to
the wages of the seamen—there is an apparent decrease,
but not a real one. I have seen it, indeed, stated in some
of the public journals that we were about to reduce the
pay of the sailor, but that is not the fact. We propose the
same vote far seamen as before, but I have taken certain
liberties with these estimates which I shall now explain.
The effect of the change which I have made will, I think,
be found to be advantageous, and I will briefly state in
what it consists. First of all there is connected with each
vote an explanatory statement, which is a mere matter
of account, and which I have removed to an ap-
pendix at the end of the estimates. From vote No. 1
also I have transferred certain items which appertain to the
Victualling Board, and which relate mainly to bedding,
clothes, and a variety of matters of that nature, which, in
my opinion, ought years ago to have been so transferred.
If, therefore, the committee will follow me they will see that
so far from there being any decrease in vote No. 1 it is in
reality the same, and that we simply transfer a certain sum
to vote No, 2. Taking the two votes together, hawever—
that for the victualling and the pay—you will observe that
there is on the two a decrease of £101,277. This decrease is
due principally that almost every article supplied to the sea-
men in the shape of provisions is much cheaper at the pre-
sent time than used to be the case. There is indeed one
article—vinegar—which is rather dearer than formerly, but
as it is notmuch drunk in the navy—(a laugh)—its increased
cost is not a matter of very much importance, while, the
price of all the other articles having been reduced, we have
been enabled to effect a considerable reduction under this
head. The next vote on which there is any important de-
crease is that fcr artificers, and if my hon. friend the mem•
ber for Norfolk would have the goodness to attend to me for
a moment—(Mr. Bentinck, who appeared to be fast asleep,
was at this point awakened from his slumbers by an hon.
gentleman sitting behind him, amid the laughter of the
committee)—he would, I have no doubt, be disposed to

of the bill until within the last few
weight of broadside, her tonnage as 3,272 tons instead of i not aware of the nature'
6,021, and her cost as only £203,518 instead of £385,342. days. They therefore v vanted time to consider it. He
There was a saving at once of more than two-thirds in men I moved the adjournment of the debate.
and nearly one-half in money. That was not, however, Mr. MAGUIRE secondeo,l the motion.
the only advantage, as Capt. Coles states that with his Alter a few words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
turret ships he can throw a ball weighing 3001bs or 4001b5., Mr. Ayrton, and Mr. Cox,
whereas in the broadside port ships balls exceeding 1101bs. The debate was
Padjourned unfil
lOFriday S.
ÜBLIC ACCUN.
could not be fired. He further states that the American
turret boats are being fitted with guns of 15 inch bore, car- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
rying solid shot of and that all their iron-clad Moni- that the following gentlemen form the committee of public
tors were mounted with guns of 4501b5. It did not accounts : Sir F. BarLng, Mr. E. P. Bouverie, Sir S.
need that a man should be a sailor to draw conclusions Northcote, Mr. Feel, Mr. G. C. Glynn, Mr. Cobden, Sir
from these figures. Every man of common sense could H. Willoughby, Mr. Howes, and Mr. Walpole.
understand that a broadside port ship with guns of 1101bs Mr. P. HENNESSY moved that the name of Colonel
would have no chance as against ships throwing 4501 b. Dunne be added.
shot. That was Captain Coles's case, and accepting his After a few words from rhe NCELLOR of the Ex-
authority and facts, the conclusion appeared to be that his CHEQUER the house divided.
tut ret vessels would as assuredly supersede the broadside The numbers
46 were—
port vessels as the screw line-of-battle ships superseded the For the amendment ..... ...... .• 2l
sailing vessels. The turret ships not having open ports Against
25
were quite invulnerable; they might be hammered at for Majority against ....
a day, and not a man be lost, and that was a further rea- On the motion being put, '.the debate.
son why so large a number of men would not be required. Mr. HENNESSY moved the adjournment in
(Hear, hear.) The committee ought not therefore to rush The house divided, whey the amendment was negatived
hand over head in this matter. He did not like to attribute by ;12 having voted for, and 39 against it.
motives, but his noble friend had confirmed a suspicion he The committee, as named, was then agreed to.
entertained before. He never could understand why the Sir E. GROGAN obtained leave to introduce a bill to
Admiralty were purchasing such an enormous stock of amend t e marriage laws of Ireland.
timber. The average consumption used to be about 30,000 The house adjourned at five minutes past two o'clock.
loads a year ; now when they ought to be substituting iron I
for wood, the stock of timber amounted to 112,001 loads.
Tee reason clearly was to enable the Admiralty to say that
having got such a quantity in the dockyards they ought to
go on building iron-clad vessels. He was told by a friend
last year that it was all done by the officials, and that the
political chief of the department knew nothing about it—
that the port admirals could not walk about without
breaking their shins over timber—(laughter)—and that
the fact of having it would be made an excuse for building
more broadsde port vessels. He (Mr. Cobden) had no
faith in the Admiralty. He agreed in that matter with
the hon. member for Norfolk (Mr. Bentinek) ; perhaps
it was the only matter in which they ever agreed—he
would concur with him in a vote of want of confidence
in the Admiralty. They were al ways wrong—(laughter)
—or doing what was right at the wrong time. His
noble friend assured them that the men were in a high
state of discipline ; that he had an admirable fleet. The
noble lord has got plenty of timber, and he only wants
some large docks to waste as much money as ever. It was,
he contended, waste of money to cover wooden vessels with
armour plating. Who recommended the Admiralty to cover
wood with iron? Would they veneer pasteboard with
marble I (Hear.) There was some excuse for iron pla ing
when they had a number of screw line-of-battle ships to use
iu that way—but there was no excuse for it now. If the
house would listen to authority instead of to the Admiralty,
they would put a stop to such a proceeding. Sir W. Alex-
ander, Mr. Fairbairn, Sir Morton Peto—men who, from
their professional pursuits, knew what the result of using
iron upon timber would be—emphatically declared against
putting the harder substance upon the softer and more
flexible, the effect of which would be that the vessel would
shake to pieces, and all the money spent on the process be
thrown away. Why would not the Admiralty suspend the
building of these monster broadside port vessels until Capt.
Coles's turret-ships were tested by experiment ? If they did
they would in a short time be able to judge what course it was
best to adopt. The noble lord promised that Capt. Coles's
vessel should be ready in October or November next. He
(Mr. Cobden) predicted that it would not be finished until
March twelvemonth, but whenever it was ready, why
should they not pause until the merits of the cupola were
fully ascertained ? It was the opinion of scientific men that
ships should be built entirely of iron, and that was the moral
of all he had to say. Such ships would be practically inde-
structable, and if they were adopted, the enormous number
of 76,000 men now in the service would not be required.
He was not about to move any reduction in the number of
men. (Hear, hear.) He had been many years in the
house, and never yet knew an estimate to be altered. His
late respected friend, Mr. Joseph flume, told him that
during 40 years he did not know an instance of an esti-
mate being altered This, however, he did know, that
when in 1848 the income tax was refused by the house, the
Government took back their estimates, and managed very
much to reduce them, and Mr. Hume informed him that in
1817 or 1818, when the house declined to recommend the
income tax, the Government took back the estimates
and reduced them enormously. If therefore the
house wanted reduction, it should be effected before the
estimates were introduced, by letting the government know
that there were some members connected with the manu-
facturing and industrial districts of the country, whose busi-
ness it was to see that such an enormous waste of public
money did not take place, and by letting the noble lord at
the head of the Government know that if he introduced
excessive estimates somebody, for whom he would not be
responsible, would have the expending of the money. The
estimates would be reduced if the Government thought that
such a fate awaited them; but knowing they would not be
altered now he did not intend troubling the house with a
vote. (Hear.)
Mr. LAIRD asked for details of expenditure for old and
new ships. We did not get anything like the number of
ships in proportion to the sums charged in the estimates
for their construction. He spoke in favour of Captain
Cowper Coles's turret ship. He was opposed to wood cased
with iron. They would fail both with regard to cost and
durability. He hoped the Admiralty would stop the con •
struction of the other ships till the Royal Sovereign had
been tried.
Mr. LINDSAY said the number of men had been in-
creased this year from 7,000 to 8,000 more than la t year,
including the Naval Reserve. They were voting more men
than they had efficient ships to man. He called attention to
our having four or five years' stock of timber, now that he
had less use for it than formerly, and that the Admiralty
were building wood and iron-cased ships to get rid of it.
Since 1856 we had spent ten millions of money in building
wooden ships, which was a complete waste to the country.
There is no doubt that in the Warrior and Black Prince
they had ships for all practical purposes invulnerable.
He most willingly testified to the great improvement
which had taken place in the discipline of the navy, and
to the contented and happy state of the seamen. Still
it would be impossible to abolish flogging in the navy,
and it was a curious thing that the great majority of
the good seamen did not desire to see it done away with.
He hoped the noble lord would tell them what their neigh-
bours were doing, and what number of iron-cased ships he
would have ready by April of next year.
Mr. BENTINCH regretted that the constitution of the
Board of Admiralty had not been brought under discussion,
as it lay at the root of all their failures to reduce expendi-
ture. He hoped that upon another occasion it would be
admitted that the strength of foreign navies had a most
material bearing upon the strength of our own. It was
impossible to reconcile the declarations of the hon. member
for Rochdale and his friends in favour of maintaining an
efficient navy with their outcry for sweeping reductions.
Lord C. PAGET reminded the committee that private
builders built iron-cased ships more quickly than the
Government, because they did not test their plates as the
Government did theirs. That was the sole cause of the
delay in the Government yards. If they built wooden ships,
it must be remembered that the iron-plated vessels were
lined with a backing of wood, and that, in order to protect
the plates from the effects of concuss on, they must do so.
Mr. COBDEN said the teak which was used for the
backing of the iron-cased ships did not require to be sea •
Boned, and therefore the noble lord might safely sell the
112,000 loads of timber he had in store.
Sir F. SMITH recommended the Government to con-
centrate all their efforts upon the building of a single turret
ship. They would then be in a position to judge as to the
future.

The Case of Child Murder at Stepney.

Mr. John Humphreys, one of the Middlesex
coroners, yesterday resumed at the King's Arms
Tavern, Beaumont-square, Stepney, the inquiry re-
specting the death of the child of Caroline Burns, a
girl only 15 years of age, who, it was alleged, had
been seduced, and had subsequently murdered her
offspring under very extraordinary circumstances.
The girl Burns was a servant in the employ of a
respectable family in Beaumont-square, and had any
excellent character. On the 3d inst., she went about
her avocations as usual, although apparently a little
weak. Her mistress, Mrs. Hill, however, in taking
some clothes from a press, found the body of a child,
which rolled out upon the floor. Mr. Atkins, ti
Burg, on, was called in, and ho discovered that
Carotine Burns had given birth to the child.
that morning, and that it had been born alive.
A piece of tape had been placed around the neck, in
which there was a deep indentation. Part of the
face was livid, and the nose was flattened. Death
had resulted from suffocation. The girl stated that
in Miry last, as she was returning home, she was
followed by a man near Stt pney church. She en-
deavoured to avoid him, but he overtook her, and
placed something over her face that took her breath
away. He took her into a house, where her senses
failed her. The man subsequently, she stated,
threatened her with vengeance if she disclosed any-
thing of what took place, and she was so terrified

that she kept the secret,
Mrs. Jane Hill said that she remembered that on
the day indicated by the girl she came home an
hour and a half past her time, and she appeared
as if she had been flurried through running. The
next day she was very ill, but- said that it was
through having had to run in the street. The girl
was very steady and industrious, and always, except.
on that one occasion, kept good hours. The girt
had concealed her condition from the family, none
of whom had any suspicion of it.
Mr. F. Gant, F.R.C.S., and anatomist at the
Royal Free Hospital, said that he had made a post
mortem examination of the deceased. He found
the ligature which had been placed around the de-
ceased's neck stained with blood. There were marks
of violence on the face. The child was fully deve-
loped, had been born alive, and had had separate
existence. It had been put to death by means of
the cord which was found around its neck, and
tightened to produce strangulation. The string had
not been used to assist in delivery.
Mrs. Hill recalled, identified the cord as one that
the girl Burns used to wear in her dress.
Emily Parker, 2, Middle Cornwall-street, said
that the girl Caroline Burns called to see her (wit-
ness's daughter) on the 24th January. She said,
" When Mr. Hill went away ne gave me los., and
kissed me." She said that he was going down to
the seaside to Mrs. Hill. She afterwards said that
the 15s. were to keep house while he was at Rams-
gate. She never complained that any violence had
been done to her.
The daughter of this witness gave similar evi-
dence. The girl said that her master was very kind
to her, but she did not say he had committed any
violeree or impropriety.
Mr. Atkins, surgeon, said that the girl stated
that she knew nothing of the circumstances of the
death of the child, as she was insensible, or " lost"
at the time.
Caroline Burns, an innocent-looking girl, appa-
rently about 14 years of age, was cautioned, and
asked it she had any statement to make. She said
that she would be 16 years of age next birthday.
Under the advice of the coroner, she declined to
make any further statement.
The coroner having summed up, the jury, after
long deliberation, returned a verdict of " Wilful
murder against Caroline Burns."
Tue coroner issued his warrant for the committal
,)! t tte girl to Newgate for trial, and she was taken
into custody by Stephens, the officer of the court.

COUNTRY MARKETS.

t,

COLCHESTER—FEB. 21.
A fair supply of wheat, but trade dull, and late prieeo
barely supported. Barley is to 2s dearer. Beans and peas
the turn in favour of the buyer.
Wheat, white ..46s 52s Beans, Mazagan..3oB 33°
red 42s 48s middle & small.3ss 420
Barley
Oats

GLOUCESTER—FEB. 21.
To-day there was a less supply of English wheat frog
the farmers, which sold at fully the prices of last week.
Foreign was in limited demand. Barley, beans, and oatO
were at late prices.

The resolution was then agreed to, as were the following
votes :—L2,921,951 for wages to seamen and marines ;
£1,416,986 for victuals and clothing for ditto; and
£165,322 for defraying the charges and expenses of the
Admiralty • office.
The Chairman was then ordered to report progress, and
the house resumed.
TOBACCO DUTIES BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
second reading of this bill. It would be his duty to oppose
an amendment of which the hon. member for the Tower
Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had given notice ; and therefore he
would reserve any observations on the bill, and simply
state that it was his intention in committee to make a ver-
bal amendment relating to the importation of Cavendish
tobacco, by which the British and foreign trades would be
Placed on the same footing, and to make some small ad-
justment in the rate of duty on high-dried Irish snuff.
Mr.AYRT ON moved that a select committee be sppointed
to inquire int., the expediency of altering the laws for rais-
ing a revenue upon tobacco. The grounds of the hon. gen-
tleman's motion were that the relief proposed was only upon
the expensive cigars smoked by the rich, while the poor
man's tax of 3s. 2d. per lb was to remain untouched. His
conviction was that the Exchequer would gain nothing by
the proposed reduction. The effect of the change would be
to favour the foreign manufacturers of cigars, who had dis-
covered a process for diminishing the weight of the tobacco
leaf.- Another result would be that while the foreign cigar
only paid a duty at the rate of Ss., the English cigar, which
was precisely similar in all the qualities of smoking, would
be charged at the rate of Bs. 2d. per lb. The Continental
manufacture was brought to such perfection that parties
wero enabled to get tobacco from this country, submit it to
the lightening process, and manufacture it into cigars, not-
withstanding the enormous duty of 9s. 6d. the lb. When
the change was made the English manufacturer of cigars
would be ruined, and the result would be an agitation for
reducing the duty on the raw material under the cry of
oppression of the poor man to the advantage of the rich.
Tho house ought to inquire into the matter before they
attempted any change. The hon. member concluded by
moving his amendment.
Mr. MAGUIRE seconded it.
After some observations from Mr. MARSH in support of
the bill,
Mr. COX moved the adjournment of the debate.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUEIt
opposed
the motion.
The house divided. The numbers were—
For continuing the debate ................ 90_
IFor the adjournment ........... .......... 42
Majority ........................ 44
Colonel DUNNE said that the people of Ireland were

IRD—FEE. 20.
-day there was a dull trade
it the same as last week. ~,,
Yeas, Partridge.. 37s avP
White 39s 0°
Boiling 4os 430
Dun 35s 38°
Ditto new —s •--°
Beans, Tick, old 34s 39°.
new -0 ''''''
Harrow Ticks 3sa 400
....0
new --e
Mazagan 305 38°