The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-14 00:00:00

the labouring classes would find profitable employment. He
did not think that the amount to be given was so much as
the value of the feeling of security to be;thereby given. Upon
the subject of emigration he would state this, that he agreed
with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in thinking that every
facility that ought to be afforded to it should be so afforded ;
but he was convinced that they would do well to keep th“
measure distinct from the present Bill. He was convinced
that if it were attempted, as had been suggested by the Hon.
Member for Limerick, to make it a part of the measure, ac-
cording to the recommendation of the Poor-law Inquiry, no
good would result from such a proceeding. Emigration was
now going on to a very great extent ; and, in order to prove
this, he would, state that he had obtained returns of
emigration from Ireland in the course of last year.--
( Hear.) He found that the number of persons who had so
emigrated amounted to no less than 23,867 ; he found also
that, excluding other English ports, there had sailed from Li-
verpool and Bristol, from which ports the larger proportion of
Irish emigrants proceeded—from Liverpool 21,900—from
Bristol 11,034. Now he believed that, if they assumed that
one. half of the number of emigrants who had sailed from these
two ports were Irish, they should not exceed the number of
those who sailed from direct English ports ; because, if on the
one side they returned too many from the two ports, on the
other hand they excluded those who had sailed from Glasgow
and other ports. He would take half as the average number,
and he might fairly say that 15,000 sailed from England, ex-
clusive of Ireland, the whole amount of persons being 39,000
emigrants.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The number was greater in the last
year.

Lord Viscount H °WIC K—The Hon. and Learned member

said that the numbers were greater if taken for the last year
(and so they were) from the fact of the burning of New
York. But look at the check which emigration had re-
ceived on the other hand from the distress occasioned in

1832 by the cholera. The prevalence of that disease was
accompanied by a panic, and the consequence was that
the newly-arrived emigrants were reduced to a state of the
greatest distress. They were compelled to come back,
having sacrificed the money which they had intended for
their temporary support, as well as the money which they
had expended on the cost of their passage. Reports of wide-
spreading distress were circulated throughout the country, and
thus there was a great check to emigration in 1832 ; a check,
the effect of which was barely recovered in 1836—that all this
was a digression caused in consequence of the observation of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. But if they had made the
subject of emigration a part of the Bill then under considera-
tion, if they had declared that the public would remove all
difficulty, he believed that the consequence would have been
that all those for whom not any provision was made in the
colony, who would go voluntarily otherwise, would have thrown
themselves on the public purse—it would, in fact, have been
a species of out-door relief. He would now offer this further
observation with respect to the gradual introduction of this
measure into Ireland ; he did not think the Hon. and Learned
Member had correctly understood what was said by his Noble
Friend. The measure, as introduced, was an entire measure,
but its introduction would be gradual, as in England, in begin-
ning with unions and workhouses. The district Commis-

siwiers would constitute these unions where they were most
required, and then proceed through the remainder of the coun-
try. In this manner he thought that in the first instance, be-
fore the measure was generally introduced, they would have
a valuable test of the general soundness of the measure. And
he could not think there would be so much difficulty as was
supposed in respect to the number of claimants for relief ;
because, though it would be impossible without great incon-
venience to establish the law of settlement, inasmuch as by
establishing such a principle they recognized a positive right to
those who claimed it to obtain reiief—there could be no doubt
that the Board of Guardians, in the exercise of that discrc-

tion with which they were invested, would give relief to those
persons who were really and bona fide inhabitants of those
districts in which they applied for relief. There would then
be this advantage, that they would not have to follow nice
legal doubts as to what settlement was good or bad. And if
his anticipations of this measure were correct, he confidently
looked forward (and he hoped that it ,would occur before
many years had elapsed) to that time when it would be safe
to say, that in any workhouse or in any part of Ireland really
destitute persons should be entitled to relief. That was the
state of things to which he looked, and it was one which he
did not despair of arriving at.
Sir R. PEEL thought the House and the country were
under great obligations to his Majesty's Government for mak-
ing a definite proposal. So much time, indeed, had been ex-
pended in inquiry into the subject, that a proposal for any new
inquiry would be tantamount to an admission that that inquiry
was of no avail, and that the prosecution of a scheme of Poor
Laws for Ireland was hopeless. Ile believed that the extent
of public feeling with respect to the justice and expediency of
introducing a system of Poor Laws into Ireland, without en-
tailing upon them the evils which had pervaded our own system,
but introducing a modified code, was so strong, that it was im-
possible for the Leeislature to refuse to consider the question.
He thought, therefore, that they were bound to labour for this
purpose. At the same time, if they did feel an interest, as he
believed all did, in the welfare of Ireland, they were equally
bound to take every precaution that, in acting on a principle of
benevolence, they should not visit Ireland with the grievances
which they had originally suffered from the former system of
Poor Laws in this country. The Noble Lord (John Russell)
had referred to those measures which he considered auxiliary
to the introduction of a system of Poor Laws in Ireland, and
from which lie anticipated considerable aid ; such, for instance,
as the affording facilities to emigration, and the undertaking of
public works by means advanced from the public funds, fur the
purpose of creating employment for the able-bodied poor. He
( Sir R. Peel) was bound to say that he thought they ought
not to be too sanguine in their expectations of relief to be ob-
tained from these sources. He entirely concurred with the
Noble Lord in the opinion that every facility ought to be given
to voluntary emigration ; but, at the same time, he thought it
of the utmost importance that the disposal of lands in the
colonies should be put on a totally new footing ; and that the
Government ought not so much to seek a revenue from the
disposal of those lands as to enable parties disposed to pur-
chase to do so on very reasonable terms.—( Hear, hear.) In
the next place, he thought that, considering that the lands to
be disposed of were situated within some particular colony, the
first and chief object the Government should have in view
should be the benefit of that colony. When that was secured,
they might adopt any measure that seemed most expedient or
most practicable to produce improvement at home. But he
very much doubted whether any benefit derived from the best
conducted system of emigration would materially aid in the
great object of finding employment for the poor of Ireland, or
of diminishing in any sensible degree the excess of the supply
over the demand for labour. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, the Member for Dublin, had asked in the course of his
speech why the Government, in the case of Ireland, did not
follow the example of the United States? " See," said the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman' "how widely extensive and wonder-
fully beneficial is the system of emigration, acted upon in the
United States of America." No doubt many and great bene-
fits resulted from the system in that country ; but it must
never be forgotten that the question of emigration was here
vastly different to what it was in America. There the emi-
gration consisted only of a removal from one part of a great
continent to another; here no emigration could take place ex-
cept by a long passage over sea, attended with many expenses,
much inconvenience, and the depressing notion of a complete
separation and alienation from the land of one's fathers. Ob-
serve, too, in our colonies, the difference of language, manners,
climate, and quality of the soil. All these afforded, in Eng-
land and Ireland, obstructions to extensive emigration—ob-
structions not known in the United States. At the same time
he thought that every encouragement should be given to vo-
luntary emigration—( Hear, hear)—he did not believe that any
forced emigration would be found of service.—( Hear, hear.)
Forced emigration, to be advantageous, could only be applied
on this principle—that no man should obtain relief or assist-
ance unless he consented to leave his country and to settle in
one of the colonies. He did not think that a fit principle to be
adopted. At the same time he entirely concurred with those
who were for giving every facility to voluntary emigration.
He came next to the subject of public works. It was cus-
tomary for them all in that House to hail with the utmost
satisfaction any proposal for the undertaking of public works
in Ireland; and yet the Hon. Gentleman who spoke so much
in favour of public works was one of those who, in the same
speech, would protest agrinst providing in any way for the re-
lief of the poor by the introduction of a system of Poor-laws.

In both cases what was the main principle involved ? The
principle of an interference with the natural demand for la-
bour—( Hear, hear)—the principle of taking money oat of a
man's pocket for the purpose of employing it in a manner and
for objects in which he felt no interest, instead of leaving it in
his pocket to be employed in such a manner as to him should
seem to be most advantageous, and for objects in which he felt
a direct interest. He ( Sir Robert Peel) therefore, was not
much disposed to vote millions of the public money for the
mere purpose of giving employment in public works, because
in a tranquil country, and in a well organised state of society,
he believed all the employment that could be usefully applied
would be given by means of private enterprise and exertion.
At the same time, if it could be shown that by the employment
of public money in public works the foundation of great pub-
lic improvements would be laid, which could never be ob-
tained without it, then he admitted that a case would be
made out for the interference of the Government, and for
taxing the people to give employment to the poor.—( Hear,
hear.) But he was strongly of opinion that public works—
undertaken only for the purpose of affording temporary re-
lief to a people suffering from general want of employment,
tended only to aggravate the evil they were intended to ob-
viate. It was, besides, unfair to the people employed, because
it held out to them that the employment would be permanent,
while it was only intended that it should be temporary.—
( Hear, hear.) Upon the question of public works there were
always two important points to be considered—first, that the
work proposed to be undertaken could not be accomplished by
individual enterprise—second, that great public benefit would
be derived from it.—( Hear, hear.) Any aid that the Noble
Lord (Lord John Russell) expected to derive from the under-
taking of public works ought to rest upon those considera-
tions. With respect to the measure at large, as proposed to
be introduced by the Noble Lord, he should be sorry to say a
word that could imply an objection to it, because, upon the
first stage of a measure as important as any ever submitted to
Parliament as regarJed its ultimate results on the interest and
happiness of Ireland, nothing he conceived could be so unwise,
perhaps so unpardonable, as for any man to pledge himself
precipitately as to the course he would pursue. If, therefore,
he said a word upon the subject upon that occasion, he trusted
the Noble Lord and the Government would believe that it
was not with the slightest hostility against them or remotest
disposition to oppose the measure, but merely as a friend
having every wish to facilitate the carrying of a measure
of the kind, and to make it in every respect as perfect as pos-
sible.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
the Member for Kilkenny (Mr. O'Connell) had stated that