The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-07 00:00:00

ply Bill was lost.. In 1834 the House of Assembly passed
ninety-two resolutions, which are familiar to this House both
in their purport and their language. In 1833 the House of
Assembly separated without passing a Supply Bill, in conse-
quence of Lord Aylmer refusing to sanction their votes for
the contingent expenses. In 1835 Commissioners were sent
out from this country, in order to investigate the whole
subject matter in dispute, and that they might make a re-
port to Government, by which his Majesty should be in-
formed of the whole matter in dispute, to be able to judge bow
far it might be safe or practicable to comply with the de-
mands of the House of Assembly. It is very satisfactory to
me that the Commission which was appointed took full time
to enter into every topic connected with the, propositions made
to this country. I, think that, whatever suffering there may
may have been on the part of those officers of the Government
who claim, and have a right to claim the protection of the
British Crewn and the British Parliament to defray the sums
owing to them—l think, whatever public inconvenience may
hare been suffered in consequence of the delay in the appoint-
ment of that Commission, yet the inestimable advantages de-
rived from it--that we do not now proceed without the fullest
and fairest inquiry, and that every subject has been carefully
looked into—fully compensate for the time lost. After four
years and a half no supply has been voted, and we have come
at last to this decisive question, whether or not we can grant
some or all of the demands of the House of Assembly, with-
out which no supply can in any case be looked to ? . It is a
great advantage, I think, that every thing that could be fairly
granted to the demands of the House of Assembly has been
previously granted—that there is now but one question for
this House to consider whether or not we shall proceed to al-
ter the Constitution of 1791, and to alter it in a manner
which I shall afterwards show is inconsistent with the re-
lations of the mother country and the colonies ; or whe-
ther we shall interpose as in a case of necessity, and a case
of clearly and fully proved necessity, to protect the colony it.
self from disturbance, and to rescue the honour of the British
Crown from that which I consider a stain upon it—of leaving
the subjects of the Crown unprotected in the situation in
which they are placed ? That this is the question is suffi-
ciently proved by the amendment which the Hon. Member
behind me ( Mr. Leader) means to propose. He does not
say, neither do those who agree with him say, " Lot not Par-
liament interfere—allow the colony to continue its course—do
not coerce the assembly of the colony—do not interfere with
the Imperial Parliament ;" but what he says is this :—" It is
necessary to interfere ; it is necessary that-you should consider
former Acts of Parliament ; it is necessary that you should
repeal those Acts, and adopt another Constitution." To this
question, then, I beg leave to call the attention of the House.
I will go shortly and generally into the questions upon which
the House of Assembly make their demand, and I will state
the reasons why I thlitik it impossible for us to grant those de-
mands, and the course which I propose to take on this sub-
ject. The first demand of the Assembly is, that the Legis-
lative Council having hitherto been nominated by the Crown,
shall for the future be an Elective Assembly.—( Cries of
" Hear.") The next is, that the Executive Council shall be
a responsible Council, similar to the Cabinet in this country.
Another is, that the law of tenures shall be changed with-
out respecting the rights acquired under an Act passed by
the British Parliament ; but the fourth is, that the Land Com-
pany shah be abolished, with a similar disregard of the rights
acquired under the saThe Act. With respect to the proposition
of making the Legislative Council elective, the effect of it in
the present state of the colony must be to make a second as-
sembly exactly resembling that which at present existed.
There could be no doubt, from the report of the Commis-
sioners—and every one who has spoken on the subject seems
to have come to the same conclusion—that the second assembly
would be but an echo of the first assembly, and would try to
enforce all their demands. It is proposed in the next place
that the Executive Council should be made to resemble the
Ministry in this country. I hold this proposition to be en-
tirely incompatible with the relations between the mother
county and the colony. The relations between the mother
country and the colony require that his Majesty should be re
presented not by a person removeable by the House of As-
sembly, but by a governor sent out by the King, responsible to
the King and responsible to the Parliament of Great Britain.
This was the necessary constitution of a colony ; and if you
have not these relations existing between the mother country
and the col my you will soon have an cud to the relations alto-
gether. Then, again, if the Executive Council were
made responsible as the Ministers of this country, of course
the governor must act according to their advice. If the
Assembly do not trust those Ministers, if they do not think
them fit, they must be removed, and others put in their
places. The person sent out by the King as governor, and
those Ministers in whom the Assembly confided, might differ
in opinion, and there at once walla be a collision beta-een
the measures of the King and the conduct of the representa-
tives of the colony. But this proposition would tend not
merely to produce disputes, not merely to try the King's
authority, but it tended to introduce authorities totally in-
compatible with the authority which the King seems to have
over every colon:•. There is an obligation, for instance, on
the government of this country, by which no British subject
should be injured with impunity. if appointed through the
influence of the House of Assembly, the- consequence would
be, that the Ministers thus appointed must carry into effect
the Acts of the Assembly, and must deprive persons of land
or other possessions, though holding them under the laws of
this country, and by virtue of an Act of Parliament. Let it
be considered that these measures must be carried into effect
not merely by the forces of the colony, not merely by the
Assembly, but in the. King's name and by means of the King's
forces in that colony. Let me suppose this case, that the
Kinu sends out certain orders to the governor in conformity
with the existing laws. The law in the mean time is changed
by the Assembly, and the consequence might be that the King's
troops would be obliged, in obedience to the orders of the mi-
nisters of the Assembly to carry into effect those orders in de-
fiance of an Act of Parliament, and tending, perhaps, to the
injury and destruction of the King's subjects holding property
according to law. It may be maintained that there is justice
in the attempt to give an executive to the colony which should
be responsible to the Assembly in the same manner that the
Ministers in this country are responsible to this House. That
part of the Constitution which requires that the Ministers of
the Crown shall be responsible to Parliament, and shall be
removable if they do not obtain the confidence of Parliament,
is a condition which exists in an Imperial Legislature, and in
an Imperial Legislature only. It is a condition which cannot
be carried into effect in a colony—it is a condition which can
only exist in one place, namely, the seat of empire. Other-
wise we should have separate independent powers existing not
' only in Great Britain, but in every separate colony. In such
a case the Government would be unable to carry its measures
or wishes into effect, and in effect each colony would be an in-
dependent State, with this singular anomaly, that the execu-
tive chief nominated by the King of England, and the troops
and forces of the King of England, might be employed to carry
the orders of the House of Assembly into effect. This is,
therefore, a condition which it is impossible to have consis-
tently with the relations between the mother country and the
colony. With respect to the other points of the tenures
and the Land Company, in looking through the measures of
the House of Assembly I do not find that they made any laws
upon this subject ; on the contrary, they seem to infer that
these acts of the British Parliament were acts of usurpation
altogether, and that they would be fully justified in repealing
those acts, and in acting according to their own discretion with
respect to any persons who may have acquired property and
rights under these acts. It is neither possible for the Crown
or the Parliament of Great Britain to yield the rights of those
persons, and after-the passing of. a solemn act of the Legisla.
ture to say that those rights shall be disregarded and set at
nought, because they do not agree with the views of the House
of Assembly.—( Hear, hear.) And as far as I can conceive,
the only remedy left, according to the views of the House of
Assembly, is for the British Parliament to vote compensation
to such persons, and to provide for them out of the funds of
this country. This is the resource left to us—a resource worse
than that which we were compelled to accept from another of
our American colonies after a most disastrous war. I feel as-
sured that this House will think that they are justified in taking
under their protection those persons who have suffered in con-
sequence of Acts passed by this and by the other House of Par-
liament. —( Hear.) Now, supposing that House were to concur
in the views of the House of Assembly, taken as a whole, what
would be the consequence? Canada would cease to be a colony,
and would establish an authority there independent and sub-
versive of the power of the British Crown, and having all the
inconvenience of a colony with none of its advantages. But
there would be this anomaly also ; if Canada were really inde-
pendent, if any subject of Great Britain were wronged there,
the King of Great Britain, as in the case of any other foreign
power, would interfere to see that the wrong was redressed ;
but according to the demands of the House of Assembly, if a
subject of the King of Great Britain were wronged on the banks
of the St. Lawrence, the King of Great Britain would not
have that power to interfere which he would have if the wrong
had been committed on the banks of the Danube and the Bos-
phorus. I ask gentlemen to consider what will be the effect of
these propositions of the House of Assembly ? One objection
is stated by the Commissioners, and stetted for a reason which
I think all sufficient in the present state of the colonies, to
prevent our acceding to the demand for an elective Legisla-
tive Council. With respect to a Legislative Council, they
state that there is no reason with respect to the ab-
stract consideration why there should not be an elective
Legislative Council in the Colony as well as one nominated
by the Crown ; but in the present condition of Canada they
cannot imagine a state of circumstances, they cannot ima-
gine a body of constituents of such a nature, so different
from the body which constitutes the present House of A s-
sembly, • so as to have an independent assembly appointed in
the manner of an election, and not by the nomination of the
Crown. But they state that, whatever may be the result come
to upon abstract speculation, that this is not the case in Ca-
nada; that the case of Canada was such, that if you yielded
to these demands, a great portion of the King's subjects—
namely, those of British descent—will be excluded altogether
from a voice and representation in the two assemblies; that
that portion, consisting of 120,000 of our fellow-subjects, per-
sons of considerable wealth and intelligence, and who were
engaged principally in commercial pursuits, would consider
themselves so far abandoned, so far unprotected, that it was
not likely the peace of the colony would be preserved, but
that they would oppose and resist the Government, as a Go-
vernment from which they could expect no security for life
and property. They concluded, that whatever might be
the result of speculation on this subject, and though their
views, as far as regarded them individually, were in many
respects dissimilar, yet they all agreed in this, that in the
present state of the colony it would not be possible, with
security to the subject and tranquillity to the colony, to grant
the demands that were made.—( Hear, hear.) I consi-
der—these Commissioners having, as I stated, in many re-
spects entertained dissimilar views upon almost every ques-
tion that came before them—l consider that there must have
been a very strong impression that the present state of the
colony was such, that it would be unwise and unsafe to

introduce an Elective Council into that colony. I Think
that the Report of the Commissioners themselves affords
sufficient reasons for the opinions to which they have come.
Having thus stated why, in the opinion of his Mdjesty's Go-
vernment, it is impossible to yield to the demands made by the
Representative Assembly of Lower Canada, I shall now pro-
eeed to state the views which we have taken of the whole case,
and of the remedy which we propose. The first difficulty
is the payment of the Judges and of the King's officers in the
colony. I think that when it is recollected that it is now four
years and a half since the Judges have received their salaries,
during which period they have been left entirely to their own
resources for support, the House will consider that it is high
time for us to come forward and interpose the authority of
Parliament in their behalf. Had we followed the advice of
the Commissioners upon this subject, we should have come for-
heard last year and demanded of Parliament the means of pay-
ing the arrears justly due to these officers ; but it was
thought that as some misunderstandings appeared to exist be-
tween the Assembly of Lower Canada and Lord Glenelg, it
would be desirable to give them an opportunity to reconsider
the subject once more, and wait to see if they still persisted in
refusing these payments. With regard to the propriety of the
proceeding which I am about to recommend, I apprehend that
it is undoubtedly in the power of the Imperial Parliament to
interfere in colonial affairs, whether in legislative matters or in
supply, when a pressing occasion occurs for so doing. In
legislative matters we had recently an instance in regard to
Jamaica, where we interposed our authority to continue an act
of great importance which the colonial legislature had omitted
to pass within the proper period. In matters of supply, also,
I have as little doubt that in cases of great necessity it is in
the power of Parliament to employ all the means in its hands
to appropriate the process of the taxes raised in a colony to
certain public services in the colony to which they are under
ordinary circumstances applied. This principle was admitted
at the bar of the House of Commons by Dr. Benjamin Frank.
lin, who, in regard to the Assembly of New York, was asked
whether, if a colony were altogether to refuse supplies, the
Imperial Parliament could interfere, and he replied that "he
could not conceive such a case to occur, though they bad in
some eases refused to grant permanant salaries to the officers
of Government, and he thought very wisely so." He was
then asked again, "whether in cases where interference was
justifiable tae right of interfering ought not to be in the Par-
Fament of Gloat Br.tain ?" which he replied, " that ho
would have no objection to it, provided the power were only-
used for the use and good of the colony itself." Now this is
a limitation in the justice of which I fully concur.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) What I propose, however, to-night is
simply to apply a certain portion of the revenues of
Lower Canada to the payment of such items as the Repre-
sentative Assembly have already agreed to in their votes of
supply in 1833. The total amount is 148,0001., and my
purpose is only to order its payment for those purposes
which the Assembly has already admitted, and not fur any
which in 1832 it may have refused to agree to. The
next consideration is the manner in which the government
of the province is to be carried on in future, and the na-
ture of the Legislative Council which is to be adopted.
It is proposed to adopt the recommendation of the Com-
missioners, that judges shall be excluded by law from this
Council, as also all persons guilty of any disgraceful offence ;
and that no person shall be appointed to it until his name has
been sent over here by the governor of the province. With
regard to the principle or predilections upon which persons
have been selected for appointment to de Legislitive Council,
I believe it has been too much the practice to select them al-
most entirely from amongst persons of British extraction, who
form but a small numerical minority in the province, whilst
the Representative Assembly is composed in great part of per-
sons of French extraction, who are the majority in point of
ras nbers, and whose views and interests in:many matters are en-
tirely at variance with those of the minority, whose feelings are
represented in the Legislative Council. I must say that the
IT a .ner in which governors of this colony have lately
acted upon the authority vested in them by the Arts of
1791 in this particular is not a judicious one, and I con-
sider that to select them alternately, one from the British and
then one from the French stock, would be far preferable. Of
course the Governor should take care to appoint a person of
sound discretion, and of good character and standing in the
colony, but at the same time no undue preference should pre-
vail in favour of one particular class to the exclusion of others,
and thus a perpetual opposition and jealousy fermented and
kept up, the minority acting in every case against the wishes
of the majority. I think by thus adopting many persons
who had no hope of appointment hitherto, and by excluding
all pe,sons of doubtful character, and especially those who
have been public defaulters, we shall go a great way towards
effecting a reconciliation of differences upon this point
This, however, should of course be left as a matter of dis-
cretion, and not as a positive rule. In the neat place, with
egaz d to the composition of the Executive C n .cif, 1 pro-
pose that there should not be more than two or three official
persons .in that Council, and that the remainder of it should
be made up from the Legislative Council and the General
Assembly. It is proposed also that they should not enter
into the discussion of any subject not immediately con-
nected with the province except upon advice of the Governor.
I propose further that the Governors shall be at liberty to act
contrary to the advice of the Executive Council if be think
proper, but that on so doing he should make a minute of the
occurrence. By this means, whilst we give the members of
the Executive Council a proper degree of control in the affairs
of the government of the colony, we also leave the Governor
a discretionary power to act by himself where lie conceives the
duty of his office and his general instructions require it. The
next question to which I have to allude is the North American
Land Company. This association, I believe, has been of great
use to the colony ; many settlers have obtained advantages
front it which they could not have hoped for, either from die
government or from their own individual resources. I see no
reason to differ from the resolution of the Commissioners in
respect to this point. No doubt the Land Company might
obtain a greater extent of land than it would be judicious to
allow them to have, but a provision might, without much
difficulty, be framed to restrain this. The Assembly, it ap-
pears, pretend that the Act of 1791 gives them the supreme
control over all the wild land of the province—a pretence
which I cannot agree to, as the Crown has never parted with
its right to grant charters for the purposes of planting or
clearing as it may think fit Another subject upon which
much complaint has been made is the Act of this country
in reference to tenures. This Act is complained of upon
two grounds—first, that it was originally framed in igno-
rance of the tenures of the colony—( Hear, hear)—and, se-
condly, that it does not provide a means of voluntary commu-
tation. The Commissioners consider both these opinions well
founded; and propose that as soon as any Act on the subject
shall have been passed by the Colonial Legislature, Parlia-
ment shall repeal the above Act. In doing this, however, I
need hardly observe that great care should be taken that the
vested rights of individuals under the existing system be not
prejudiced. Another complaint of the Canadas against the
Act of 1791, especially on the part of Upper Canada, is the
embarrassment which arises out of it to trade between the two
colonies. A newspaper which I hold in my hand complains
that every beat which comes from the lower provinces is sub-
ject to inspection of the Custom-house, and forced to pay
duty, and that the passengers from Great Britain passing by
this route are also subject to pay certain duties of this kind.
It complains further, that the general division of the duties
is unfair, and, above all, that they have not a full vent for their
merchandise by the St. Lawrence ; for it appears that in the
upper province by the Act of 1791 they have not the means
of communication with the sea, and consequently with foreign
parts, without the payment of considerable duties, and other
impediments being thrown in their way in Lower Canada.
With respect to this and many other questions of the like kind
I think it highly desirable that some satisfactory adjust-
ment of difference should at least be attempted. At present,
instead of the two colonies helping and strengthening one
another, they seem but to be a mutual hindrance upon one an-
other's commerce and views. With a view to the adjustment
of these differences, it is proposed, with the assent of the Le-
gislatures of the two provinces, that a Joint Committee should
be appointed, to sit at Montreal, and which Committee should
be composed in the following manner, namely, of four mem-
bers of the Legislative Councils of each province, and of eight
members of each Representative Assembly, making twenty-
four persons in all, who should have the power to prepare laws
and to compare results upon all these points of reciprocal po-
licy. One of the most important matters which would come
under their notice would be the navigation of the St. Law-
rence. Another would be the settlement of matters of com-
merce between the two colonies. Another point would be the
constitution of some fair Court of Appeal, and of impeachment
for judges and other officers of the Executive, instead of, as
under existing circumstances would be too apt to be the case,
the accusing body being at once the accuser and the judge in
the case. The Committee would also have to direct its attention
to the line of boundary. It is hoped that on many of the points I
have truched upon foie Committee would be able to devise mea-
sures by which the mutual interest and the good government of
the two colonies may be greatly improved. With regard to the
matters of supply to which I have already alluded, it is proposed
that, after securing the civil list, and the salaries of the judges
and of certain government officers, the whole revenue of the
colony should be left to the disposal of the Assembly. The
Assembly would hardly wish for more than this ; they would
hardly, I think, wish to see the Judges made subservient to
the vote of the Representative Assembly for the posts, instead
of holding the independent position which their important of-
fice so peculiarly demands. Putting these few items, there-
fore, out of the question, theAssemblyas in thewould fstiolrlmhaatvioentlief
disposal of the greater portion of the revenue of the province
for purposes of national improvement,
roads, &c. In this situation, without any direct tax, without
any debt to keep down, and whose whole revenue is raised by
means of duties upon commerce, which they apply as they
think proper to their own internal improvements, and the ne-
cessary expense of their Assemblies, this, I think, is as desi-
rable a state of things as it is possible to conceive. With re-
spect to any injuries or disadvantages which the Canadians
are alleged to lie under in respect to the law, I can only
say that they do not appear in any of the petitions before us.
That the House of Assembly should be entirely elected by
themselves, that the Executive Government should be no-
minated by the Crown, but with certain conditions
and securities, and that the House of Assembly should
come to some arrangement with the upper province
on the subject of trade, and other international matters,
such are the general propositions which we desire to submit,
with a view to bringing these complaints to an adjustment.
With respect to the wild lands, they are, as I said before, in
the hands of the Crown. The rule now is not to make the
same improvident grants as formerly, but to sell the land at a
fair price ; the House of Assembly having the general con-
trol for the revenue, leaving only to the Executive such su-
perintendence in matters of detail which is usual both in the
mother country and in the colonies. According to this view
of the case I think it can hardly be denied that these colonies
are in the enjoyment of as great a portion of political free-
dom, and of personal immunity from oppression, and of as

great power to make wholesome laws, as any persons at home.
They certainly do not possess some privileges in the imperial
government of the colony, which it is not in their nature, as
colonists, to enjoy. At the same time, however, it should be
borne in mind that they are exempt from the payment of taxes
which we have to pay. Their taxes, on the contrary, are ex-
ceedingly light, and their means of internal improvement
very great and very promising. Such is the condition of
these colonies, and such will be their prospects if they accept
the propositions which I have now laid down. If, on the
other hand, they take an unfavourable view of these propo-
sals—if they persist in maintaining that it is absolutely ne-
cessary that there should be an elective Legislative Council
and an Executive Council subservient to the Representative
Assembly, then it must very shortly come to this, that they
should also have a Governor of their own nomination, for none
other would do their bidding.—( Hear.) If this be the proposi-
tion of the Assembly of Lower Canada, it is in another form
nothing else than demanding the total independence of the
colonies from the mother country. This is a demand which,
if it be persisted in, must drive Parliament to the necessity of
saying whether there is any form of colonial constitution under
which the Canadas can be governed than that embodied in the
Act of 1791. But to these addresses, by which the dignity of
Parliament and of the country is impaired, and by adopting
which we should be made responsible for acts in which we do
not concur, and which we do not think desirable, I cannot
' agree. I, however, do not suppose that these colonies will
persist in their demands ; but if they do still hold out, we have
not the means of carrying on the government of them here in
continual resistance to their Assemblies. Ido not propose to
do away with the Constitution of 1791, but if the colonists are
desirous of retaining that Constitution, and will agree to carry
it on in the fairest way, that Constitution may be so carried on
by the steps we are about to propose. Ido not think that we
could carry on the government of the colony without the Le-
gislative Council; and I wish to have the advice of Parliament
on the subject, whether we should yield to demands which we
consider would amount to the abandomment of the colony al-
together, or whether we shall adopt the course I now propose,
by which I hope to induce the colonists to reconsider the whole
matter in dispute, and see whether those disputes had not
arisen in a great part out of feelings of irritation consequent
upon former disputes, and to offer such practicable measures
as may induce them to abandon the greater number of those
complaints. The Noble Lord sat down amidst general
cheering.
The following Resolutions, proposed by the Noble Lord,
were then read by the CHAIRMAN
1. That since the 31st day of October, in the year 1832
no provision has been made by the legislature of the province
of Lower Canada for defraying the charges of the administra-
tion of justice, and for the support of the civil government with-
in the said province, and that there will, on the 10th day of
April now next ensuing, be required for defraying in fuU the
charges aforesaid to that day the sum of 142,160/. 14s. 6J.
" 2. That at a Session of the Legislature of Lower Canada,
holden at the city of Quebec, in the said province, in the
months of September and October, 1836, the Governor of the
said province, in compliance with his Majesty's commands, re-
commended to the attention of the House of Assembly thereof
the estimates for the current year, and also the accounts, show-
ing the arrears due in respect of the civil Government, and
signified to the said House his Majesty's confidence that they
would accede to the application which he had been commanded
to renew for payment of the arrears due on account of the
public service, and for the funds necessary to carry on the civil
Government of the province.
"3. That the said House of Assembly, on the 3d day of
October, 1836, by an address to the Governor of the said pro-
vince, declined to vote a supply for the purposes aforesaid;
and by the said address, after referring to a former address
of the said House to the Governor of the said province, de-
clared that the said House persisted, amongst other things,
in the demand of an elective Legislative Council, and in de-
manding- the repeal of a certain Act passed by the Parliament
of the United Kingdom in favour of the *North American
Land Company ; and by the said address the said House of
Assembly further adverted to the demand made by that
House of the free exercise of its control over all the branches
of tllie Executive Government ; and by the said address the
said House of Assembly further declared, that it was incum-
bent on them in the present conjuncture, to adjourn their de-
liberations until his Majesty's Government should by its acts,
especially by rendering the second branch of the Legislature
conformable to the wishes and wants of the people, have com-
menced the great work of justice and reform, and created a
confidence which alone could crown it with success.

" 4. That in the existing state of Lower Canada, it is in-
advisable to make the Legislative Council et that pi-I:wince
an elective body ; but that it is expedient that measures be
adopted for securing to that branch of the legislature a
greater degree of public confidence.
" 5. That while it is expedient to improve the composition
of the Executive Council in Lower Canada, it is inadvisable
to subject it to the responsibility demanded by the House of
Assembly of that province.
" 6. That the legal title of the North American Land
Company to the land holden by the said Company by virtue
of a grant from his Majesty, under the public seal of the said
province, and to the privileges conferred on the said Company
by the Act for, that purpose made in the fourth year of his
Majesty's reign, ought to be maintained inviolate.
"7. That it is expedient that so soon as provision shall
have been made by law to be passed by the Legislature
of the said province of Lower Canada, for the discharge
of lands therein from feudal dues and services, and
for removing any doubts as to the incidents of the te-
nure of land in free and common soccage in the
said provinces, a certain Act made and passed in the
sixth year of the reign of his late Majesty King
George the Fourth, commonly called The Canada Tenures
Act;' and so much of another Act passed in the third year of
his said late Majesty's reign, commonly called ' The Canada
Trade Act,' as relates to the tenures of land in the said pro-
vince, should be repealed; saving, nevertheless, to all persons
all rights in them vested under or by virtue of the said recited
Acts.

8. That for defraying the arrears due on account of the
established and customary charges of the administration of
justice and of the civil government of the said province, it is
expedient that, after applying for that purpose such balance
as shall on the said 10th day of April, 1837, be in the hands
of the Receiver-general of the said province, arising from his
Majesty's hereditary, territorial, and casual revenue, the go-
vernor of the said province be empowered to issue from and
out of any other part of his Majesty's revenues in the hands
of the Receiver-general of the said province, such furth4Psums
as shall be necessary to effect the payment of the before-men-
tioned sum of 142,1601. 14s. 6d.

" 9. That it is expedient that his Majesty be authorised to
place at the disposal of the Legislature of the said province
the net proceeds of his Majesty's hereditary, territorial, and
casual revenue arising within the same, in case the said Legis-
lature shall see fit to grant to his Majesty a civil list for de-
fraying the necessary charges of the administration of justice,
and for the maintenance and unavoidable expenses of certain
of the principal offices of the civil government of the said
province.
" 10. That great inconvenience has been sustained by his
Majesty's subjects inhabiting the provinces of Lower Canada
and Upper Canada from the want of some adequate means for
regulating and adjusting questions respecting the trade and
commerce of the said provinces, and divers other questions
wherein the said provinces have a common interest; and it is
expedient that the legislatures of the said provinces respectively
be authorized to make provision for the joint regulation and
adjustment of such their common interests."
Mr. LE ADE It—lt is my intention to oppose the resolutions
proposed by the Noble Lord, if the usage of the House per-
mitted. If the Noble Lord in rising to bring forward the sub-
ject were under the necessity of craving the indulgence of the
House, I must also claim similar indulgence, not only on ac-
count of illness, but on account of the vast importance of the
question. The Noble Lord said he brought forward the reso-
lutions with considerable reluctance, and I am not surprised at
the expression.—(.Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord represented
a Liberal constituency, and was the leader of a Liberal. Go-
vernment, and he must therefore have felt reluctance in bring-
ing forward the most arbitrary measure ever proposed to that
House. It was, in short, a coercion Hear.) The Noble
Lord admitted that colonial assemblies were often in the right
at the commencement, when they complained of grievances
and claimed redress; but it also often happened that these
colonies ended their claims by forming themselves into
Commonwealths. The Assembly of Lower Canada had com-
menced with the first mode of proceeding; but unless their
just demands were conceded they would not form themselves
into a Commonwealth, but throw themselves into the arms
of a neighbouring republic. I differ from the Noble Lord
relative to the effects of the Act passed in 1828; and he will
find on referring to it that the report of his own Commis-
sioners is equivocal on that point. The Noble Lord had told
us that the Legislature had hitherto abstained from intefering
with the steps taken by the House of Assembly. But what
had caused that conduct but the course pursued for the last
twenty years by a nominated council against the wishes of the
Canadian people,
and sustained by the bad policy of the Co-
lonial-office ?—( Hear, hear.) Ho says if the Legislative
Council were made elective the interests of the people would
predominate. What an objection to come from the Noble
Lord 1 The people of Canada say, in order that all legisla-
tion may. not be impeded, there is an absolute necessity that
the Legislative Council should be reformed; and the Noble
Lord proposes, by way of remedy, not that the Legislative
Council should be so reformed as to act in harmony with the
other estates, but that the House of Assembly and the great
body of the people should be made to conform to the vicious
principles and practice of the Executive Council. The Noble
Lord says it would be inexpedient to repeal the Act by which
the North American Land Company hold their tenures. Now
that very Act is one great subject of complaint. The people
of Canada say that the tenure Acts, and other Acts" of a simi-
lar description, ought never to have passed the Imperial Par-
liament, and contend that so long as they have a Constitution
and national Assemblies of their own, the Imperial Parliament
ought not to interfere with their concerns. The Noble Lord
said, if the Legislature of this country supported the reso-
lutions, the people of Canada would be placed in a most en-
viable position ; but the Noble Lord forgets one point ; he
forgets that if these resolutions are passed, the independence
of the Canadian Assembly is annihilated ; he forgets that the
people are deprived of their constitutioual rights. That would
be the result of the resolutions. Now, I ask the Noble Lord,
whether he is prepared to deprive that Colonial Assembly of
the rights with which it is entrusted for the benefit of the
people—is he prepared to deprive that Assembly of their con-
troul over their finances, of their controul over the Executive,
and to tax the Canadian people without the consent of the
national Legislature ? Is there not an Act passed by the Im-
perial Legislature, which declares that the colonies of Upper
and Lower Canada shall not be taxed but by their own Legis-
latures? And are not the resolutions of the Noble Lord di-
rectly opposed to this principle? The Noble Lord proposes
that the House of Assembly shall pay certain arrears. They

refuse to pay, unless on certain conditions—these conditions
are not complied with, and yet the Noble Lord steps in between
the paities—the Assembly and the Executive—and, in the
most unconstitutional and arbitrary manner, endeavours to
tax the colonies.—( Hear.) If such a system is to be carried
into effect, the Constitution of Canada is a mere paper parch-
ment, and the Assembly nothing more than a debating club.
I therefore contend that so long as the Canadian people have a
constitutional Assembly of their own, it is beyond the right
of this House to interfere with their concerns, or make any
change in their financial affairs. The Commissioners had some
feelings of this sort. What are their words ?—" That such
a measure would be less objectionable than any interference
with the privileges of the Canadian Legislature or any tam.
pering with the principles of the Constitution granted in
1791." The Noble Lord said he was sorry there was no choice
left but to adopt the latter course.—(Hear.) And what would
that amount to but to send troops to the country, and provoke
the people by threats and the fear of slavery ? Now, this un-
satisfactory and unconstitutional resolution—and he was not
surprised when he read it—this unconstitutional resolution is
founded on the Report of the Commissioners, and is in ac-
cordance with the policy of the Colonial office at all times. I
heard the resolutions and the speech of the Noble Lord with
sincere regret, because they would neither be satisfactory to the
Colonial Parliament nor to the people of the country, whom
they would exasperate in the highest degree. The grievances
of the colony had existed for more than forty years. In 1791,
when a change was made in the Constitution of the colony, it
was said by many it would not work well, and the vital error
was the nominated Legislative Council. The prediction has
unfortunately proved too true. The Constitution has not
worked well. For twenty years a contest has been carried on
between the nominated Council and the Legislative Assembly,
and all legislation stopped. And what does the Noble Lord
propose to supply for a remedy ? The Noble Lord comes
forward, not with a remedy, but with a resolution to make the
people pay without directing his attention to theirjust demands.
To the report drawn up and signed by the three Commis-
sioners there are notes appended ; some by Sir Charles Grey,
disagreeing with apart of the report ; some by SirGeorgeGipps,
of a similar character ; and there is only one on which they all
agree, the general attack made on the Hon. Member for Bath.
All agree to that short report; and even the Secretary was so
delighted with it that he thought proper also to sign his
name. In that report thep said little or nothing of the
remedy, but it was full of threats against the Legislative As-
sembly, full of projects for taking away their rights, and with
schemes for converting the minority into a majority, and with
plans and bills of a similar nature, which, instead of satisfying
the people of Canada, would excite them to the highest degree
of exasperation. The Report acknowledged there were many
grievances—it acknowledged the Assembly had justice on their
side ; but there were many difficulties in settling the question,
and they have not settled any question. They have staved
many things off which, unless brought to a satisfactory conclu-
sion, may lead to a separation between Canada and this country.
Now the great point to be settled, and on which the Canadians
laid the greatest stress, was making the Upper Assembly elec-
tive. That depended on the state of parties in Lower Canada,
it was said, because gentlemen interested told us that it was a
contest not for right, but a contest between English and
French Canadians. Now that was not the truth, because
there is a majority of English Members voting with what
was called the French party. Many of British descent and
many of American descent are found to agree with those of
French descent. It could not, therefore, as insinuated, be
called a contest of races—no, it was a contest between the
people and a nominated Council—it was a contest between
the Oligarchy and the Democracy, insulted and trampled
down by a miserable minority—an oligarchy who had so long
tyrannised over the rest of the community that they they think
they are deprived of their rights when affairs are placed on a
proper footing. Four-fifths of the Canadians wish to make
the Council elective ; and the other fifth, interested in
abuse are determined to keep up the nominated Council,
and say they never will submit to the National Colo-
nial Assembly. in favour of which of the two parties
will you decide ? Will you agree with the minority or the
majority ? That is the real state of the question. N% hen the
Constitution was granted in 1791, the Ministers of the day
thought it would be a great benefit, to give a Constitution
as much like to that of England as possible, and they ac-
cordingly framed it on the same plan, though with dif-
ferent titles for the separate estates. For the King the
Colonies have a governor—for the Cabinet a Privy Council
—for the House of Lords a Legislative Council, and for a
House of Commons a House of Assembly. The great dif-
ficulty was to find proper persons to constitute an Upper
House, because in Canada there are no elements for an
aristocracy—no persons of the proper stamp to make a
House of Lords; but the governm'etit finding it was neces.
sary to make the Constitution like that of England, created
that assembly of officers nominated by the Crown. It was
hardly to be expected that a body thus nominated would agree
with an assembly elected by the people ; and the consequence
was such as every man expected—the two houses did not
agree on any one point, and all legislation was stopped—the
Assembly was useless, and the colony was deprived of the
benefit of a legislature, because it had been judged necessary
to adopt this scheme for a House of Lords. What remedy do
the Commissioners propose ? They do not propose to do
away wfth the Legislative Council, or reform it, though after
forty years' experience it had been found a failure. They
did not propose to restore to harmony the Executive, the
Legislative Council, and the House of Assembly, but still to
'keep up and preserve this strange and anomalous body. The
Commissioners in their report admit that there was a want of
harmony and a hostility shown towards the Legislative
Council, and that something was expected by the people
by which the Council would be placed more under control.
Their words are:—" With these signs, therefore, of a conti-
nued hostility before us; we are disposed to ascribe the fact
of no formal demand for an elective Council having been
made before 1833 simply to the expectation entertained by
the popular party, that in consequence of the recommenda-
tions cf the Committee of 1828, very essential alterations in
the composition of the Council were on the point of being ef-
fected. An alteration was indeed produced in 1832. The
judges ceased to take any part in its proceedings, and thirteen
new members, unconnected with the government, were added
in the course of the year ; but that these new nominations were
unsatisfactory to the Assembly, and that the disappointment
they felt at the alterations in the Council was the cause of
their fresh proceedings against it, may be inferred from the
fact, that in the next session of the Legislature was voted
the first address in which a demand for an elective Council
was put forth. . . . We certainly do not think that either
the recommendation of the Committee of 1825, or anything
that subsequently issued from a competent sourse, warranted
an expectation that the Legislative Council was to be made
entirely to harmonise with the feelings of the Assembly ;
nevertheless, tbat something of the kind was expected by
the popular party does seem beyond dispute. We do not
feel called on to pronounce an opinion on the propriety of the
appointments in question ; and the less so, as they were
narrowly scanned in the cross-examination of Mr. Morin,
before the Committee of 1834 ; but we may, we think, ven-
ture to say, that whilst they satisfied the terms of the re-
commendation made by the Committee of 1828, as far as the
matter of pecuniary independence of the Crown was concerned,
they scarcely produced an alteration in the political character
of the body to which the new members were aggregated."
The next topic they advert to is the contest between the two
races. [The Hon. Member here read an extract from the
Report to the purpose, as we understood, of showing that the
two parties were strongly opposed to each other—the French
party figuring as the asserters of the people's rights, and the
British party complaining of not obtaining a proper share of
power in the Lower Assembly.] That part of the Report,
continued the Hon. Member, concluded with the remark, that
though at first it might have been expedient to make some
change in the constitution of the Assemblies, it would not be
advisable to adopt the principle now. And why ? Because it
would only take the power from one and give it to the
other—the very argument used by Gentlemen opposite when
they refused corporate reform to Ireland. They said "No I
it may be just to give Corporations to Ireland, but we will
not, by giving Corporations to Ireland, create a party
triumph." It is perfectly surprising that Commissioners
appointed by a Liberal Government should have drawn up
such a Report. The Canadians, in a constitutional man-
ner, ask for the introduction of the principle of election
into the Legislative Council, both as a great measure of
reform, and as a measure of urgency, without which peace
cannot be restored to Canada. What is the answer of
the Commissioners? "We cannot agree to your request,
for it is contrary to the unity of government in the British em-
pire. But we have a remedy of our own ; which is to deprive
you of the control over your finances, and to take away your
Constitution. ‘We cannot consent to the introduction of the
elective principle ; for then the Legislative Council will not
be like the House of Lords." Sir, let it be remembered
that, in the first instance, the Legislative Council was but
an experiment. Mr. Pitt said that it was only an experi-
ment. What were the words of another great statesman, on
the occasion of its establishment ? The Noble Lord told us
the other night, that when he wished to seek for large and
liberal principles of government, he did nor refer to the logic
of Locke or the technicalities of Blackstone. I perfectly agree
with the Noble Lord that a more powerful advocate of liberal
principles than Mr. Fox never lived. But what did Mr. Fox
say on the occasion to which I have just alluded ? In the debate
on the Quebec Government Bill, in 1791, Mr. Fox said, " He
did not advise giving Canada a servile imitation of our aristo-
cracy, because we could not give them a House of Lords like
our own. The Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to bo
aware of this, and therefore he had recourse to a substitute
for hereditary nobility. It was, however, he must contend,
a very inadequate substitute ; it was a semblance but not a
substance. Lords, indeed, we might give them, but •there was
no such thing as creating that reverence and respect for them
on which their dignity and weight in the view both of the
popular and monarchical part of the Constitution depended,
and which alone could give diem that power of controul and
support that was the object of their institution." The expe-
riment has now been tried for above forty years; and the re-
sult has shown that Mr. Fox was right. It has been a 'Com-
plete failure. In a subsequent part of the same speech Mr.
Fox said, " Instead, therefore, of the King naming the Coun-
cil at that distance—in which case they had no security that
persons of property, and persons fit to be named, would be
chosen—wishing, as he did, to put the freedom and stability
of the Constitution of Canada on the strongest basis, he pro-
posed that the Council should be elective." So that I now
merely propose what the Noble Lord's chief authority in poli-
tical matters proposed in 1791. Mr. Fox added, "In order
to show that his idea of an elective council was not a new
one, before the Revolution more of the councils in our colo-
nies were elected by the people than by the King." Such
were Mr. Fox's views on the subject in 1791. He, at that
time, predicted what has since happened. We have now the
experience of forty years to guide us. Remember the
consequences of the unholy policy pursued towards Ame-
rica.—(Cries of " Hear, hear,") Compare that policy

with the liberal policy now pursuing towards Ireland, and
determine which is the best. Remember that Canada has
been complaining for these thirty years. Remember that there
is in her neighbourhood a great, flourishing, and powerful Re-
public, anxious to assist her. Remember that the attachment
of Canada to England, not weakened at present, can be de-
stroyed only by obstinate perseverance in an unjust course. In
political condition Canada may be considered a miniature of
Ireland. The Irish Members demand justice for Ireland ;
demand justice for Canada. Sir, I move as an amendment to
the Noble Lord's resolution, " That it is advisable to make
the Legislative Council of that province an elective Council."
Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the amendment.
Mr. ROBINSON said that throughout his speech the
Hon. Member for Bridgwater assumed that the Canadian
House of Assembly must necessarily be in the right, and that
the Legislative Council, the Commissioners, and his Ma-
jesty's Government must necessarily all be in the wrong. Now,
really, that was very modest. When the Hon. Member de-
manded on the part of the Canadians that the Constitution of
1791 should be maintained, his (Mr. Robinson's) answer was,
that that Constitution had been maintained, and that the
amendment moved by the Hon. Gentleman was in direct vio-
lation of it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
had quoted some words from a speech made by Mr. Fox
on the discussion of that Constitution. He (Mr. Robinson)
would also quote some is ords which fell from Mr. Fox during
the same.debate; but which bore a very different construction.
Mr. Fox's memorable expressions on the occasion to which
he (Mr. Robinson) alluded were as follow :—" He laid -it
down as a principle never to be departed from, that every
part of the British dominions ought to possess a Government
in the Constitution of which monarchy, aristocracy, and de-
mocracy were mutually blended and united ; nor could any
Government be a fit one for British subjects to live under,
which did not contain its due weight of aristocracy ; because
that he considered to be the proper poise of the Constitution
—the balance that equalized and meliorated the powers of the
two other extreme branches, and gave stability and firmness to
the whole." The broad principle thus laid down by Mr.
Fox, that the three elements of our Constitution, the monar-
chical, the aristocratical, and the democratical, should be
blended in the formation of any Government for British sub-
jects, was completely the point at issue between the Hon.
Member for Bridgewater and the Canadian people and
his Majesty's Government. The Honourable Member for
Bridgwater had chosen to say that there was no dispute be-
tween the Canadian population and the British people in Ca-
nada. He (Mr. Robinson) maintained, on the contrary, that
the Canadian population were endeavouring to separate them-
selves, to establish a distinct nationality of government, in op-
position to the English people settled in Canada. In La
Minerve, a paper which was the organ of M. Papineau's party
in Canada, there was this passage. —(The lion. Member
here read the passage in question, which was to the following
effect :—" In examining with the most attentive care all that
is passing around us, it is very easy to convince ourselves that
our country is placed in very critical circumstances, and that a
revolution will perhaps become necessary—a Constitution re-
modelled—a nationality maintained. Such are the objects
which at present occupy the thoughts of all true Canadians. I
repeat that an immediate separation from-England is the only
means of preserving our nationality.") He (Mr. R.) begged
to remind the Hon. Member for Bath, that that Hon. Mem-
ber last year contradicted him when he asserted that there
was a struggle going on between the Canadian Assembly and
the British people in Canada; and that the former were de-
termined to govern Canada by and for the Canadian popula-
tion alone.—( Hear, hear.)
now
(Mr. R.) spoke of French
Canada. Let the House now hear what the organ of the
French party further said :—" Some time hence, when emi-
gration shall have made our adversaries %qual to us, they
will become more daring, and will endeavour to deprive us
of our liberties. Let, then, all share the same fate as --"
[We were unable to catch the conclusion of the paragraph.]
Here was an open declaration of the object of the Cana-
dians, and of their determination to preclude the further
influx of British settlers by threatening them with destruc-
tion. lie would ask a British Parliament if that were en
object and if that were a determination in which they were
disposed to concur ? Could we permit the French Canadians
to say, " You shall not send any more British here, because
in process of time they will equal us, and we shall lose our na-
tionality ?" The Honourable Member for Bridgwater seemed
to have forgot, that when his Majesty's present Government
came into office they adopted the plan of the preceding
Government its sending out Commissioners to Canada.
Could any objection be made to the three individuals who
were appointed ? Could any one who knew the nature of
the instructions which those Commissioners received, and
who also knew their character, have any doubt that his
Majese)'s Government in sending them, and the Commis-
sioners in undertaking the mission, were influenced by every
possible motive of conciliation and good will towards the
Canadians ? Let any one look at the assiduous efforts of
the Commissioners, and the anxious desire which they
evinced to yield everything to the French Canadian party that
was consistent with the rights of the British party, and the
honour of the British Crown. And sure he was that those
Commissioners had not resolved to make the report which they
had made, until they had relinquished all hope of effecting the
great object which they had in view. Did the Hon. Member
for Bridgwater recollect the able and conciliatory speech in
which Lord Gosford, when be went to Canada, addressed the
House of Assembly ? No one who had read this address Of
Lord Goeford but must be convinced that his Majesty's Go-
vernment had sent that nobleman on a mission of peace and
good-will to Canada; and that his Lordship was the man
faithfully to execute such a mission. The Hon. Member for
Bath had formerly spoken eulogistically of Lord Gosford.
Mr. ROEBUCK denied having ever done so.
Mr. ROBINSON observed that others then of the Hon.
Member's party had done so ; but, as soon as they found that
Lord Gosford was likewise disposed to do justice to the Bri-
tish settlers ifi Canada, they declared that lie was worse than
his predecessor. lie (Mr. Robinson) had always been the
advocate of liberal principles ; he had always been the advo-
cate of justice to Ireland ; but he utterly denied the identity
of the state of Ireland and the state of Canada. What were
the demands made by this colony ? In point of fact they
amounted to nothing more or less than this general proposition,
that the whole legislative power of the colony should be vested
in the House of Assembly ; because when Hon. Gentlemen
talked of having an elective legislative council, what to-4
meant by that? Why, that by adopting the elective principle,
that House should be rendered the echo, and the mere echo
only, of the other House. For his own part he would met,"'
rather prefer the Legislative Council being dispensed with al'
together. The Government were anxious to remedy this
state of things by so far effecting an alteration in the con-
stitution of the Legislative Council as to make it harmonize
more with the House of Assembly. He believed, indeed,
that the people of Lower Canada, looking to the vast cows.
mercial interests with which they were identified, would
prefer that the home Government should abandon them alto-
gether, and leave the colony to itself, rather than they
should yield to those very extraordinary demands on the part or,
the Legislative Assembly. But were they, the Members et
the British House of Commons, to believe that the popula-
tion of Canada really desired a separation from this country,
if these demands were not acceded to ? The Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath might attempt to persuade them to believe
that the greater proportion of the elective body were sup Per;
tern of the dominant party. lie (Mr. Robinson) admit"'
that Mr. Papineau exercised a domination over the elective
body ; but there was likewise a very considerable portion e,
the Canadians opposed to his extreme views ; and who welsh'
be much disposed to adopt the remedy propounded by thl
Noble Lord. He was satisfied that they would; but how CO
it be expected that the Canadian people would be content with
anything which the Government could or would do, when--'ll
addition to that excitement which the proceedings of Mr. Pali
pineau tended to keep up, the Honourable and Learned
Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck), and the Honourable Meta"
ber for Middlesex contributed further to the spread of that
excitement, by sending out -the most inflammatory statements
to that country ?—( Loud cries of " Hear !" and cheers frog'
both sides of the House.) He did not forget that the
and Learned Member for Bath had absolutely, in a lettl'i
written to Lower Canada, declared that if the grievances
the Canadians were not redressed, they would be justified 311
having recourse to arms—
Mr. ROEBUCK rose to order. The assertion advance
by the Hon. Member for Worcester had been so often made
and so often contradicted, that he was astonished at that gel'
tieman bringing it again forward, and he hoped he would for'
bear doing so in future.
a Mr. ROBINSON had no wish to mis-state anything, an
he begged the Hon. Member's pardon if lie had unintention:
ally done so. He thought, however, that the fact had been
admitted, and he certainly was not aware that it had ever been
denied.

Mr. HUME here interposed, and begged to speak to order'
He begged also to deny what had been said of him by the
Hon. Member for Worcester..
Mr. ROBINSON—He could only say that he had el
a letter in print which (as we understood) he had never bee
denied before.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the cer.,
cretary for the Home Department had justly observed that the
British Parliament was absolutely menaced, that if this reso-
lution were carried it would lead to a rebellion.—(Cheers'
and cries of " Hear I" from some of the Ministerial benches.
He well remembered that last year the lion. Member Of
Middlesex stated that these demands, which were raised ie
Lower Canada, were not confined to Lower CanariaAlone;
but were gradually finding their way to all the other pr;ci
vinc9 ; and undoubtedly if the same feeling did not es..„te,ot
to every House of Assembly, it was not owing to any "-se
of assiduity on the part of the Canadian party here, beeitheaa
they had sent out copies of those papers to which be as
referred, and attempted to inoculate the different provalaa
with the same disease of dissatisfaction. But what hat
been the revolutions of Upper Canada since last year? a?
had been the effect of the course of Sir Francis riend,;
It had led to a complete change of opinion in Upper CanAnk,
and he would venture to say, that when be was then sPejoes
ing, there was not a colony in his Majesty's derniFsfiei
the people of which, generally specking, were more
with with the Constitution under which they lived, and with tads
connection with this country, than the people of Upper Ca can
were ; and so would the people of the other North Amer,r,..
provinces be if they were let alone by those mischievous
brands.—( Hear, hear.) Yes • those mischievous firebrands'
who who were endeavouring to persuade a class of men who, ,
vvcro
eminently industrious and virtuous in themselves, and her
well disposed, to break off the connection with the or,oo
country, and to shake off the benefits which they derived.'i'f. it
that connection. They also would be happy and satisfied who
were not for the unfortunate influence of those parties, ~. ,
persuaded them that their interest lay in opposin the
moderation,o had
ment. The Noble Lord, in a speech of great nel'ant
pointed out the course which his Majesty's Government
to pursue under an unhappy exigency (because be was "_.id
be
disposed to think it unfortunate that the Government shou„_4
obliged to propose anything tending tocurtail the coustitutiw.