The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-24 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

Mr. HUME asked whether the notice given for to-mor-
row night war merely lormal—or whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman intended to take any vote?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that

for some time past there had been a sort of rule agreed on
for the convenience of all, relating to business to be done
on Wednesdays, and he hoped the House would not be
disposed to violate the rule, and make them work Lard
every night.
REPRESENTATION OF MANCHESTER, BIR-
MINGHAM, AND LEEDS.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that before he proceeded
with the motion of which he had given notice, he wished
to lay before the House a petition which had been com-
mitted to his care from the inhabitants of the extensive
and important town of Sheffield. The petitioners com-
plained, that several large, populous, and wealthy towns
were at present excluded from the exercise of the elective
franchise, whilst in very many instances that privilege was
enjoyed by the inhabitants of small places of nu importance,
and was often exercised in an unworthy manner. The
petitioners therefore prayed that the franchise might be
extended to their town, and to such other populous,
wealthy, and intelligent places.
Mr. MARSHALL expressed his cordial concurrence in
the prayer of the petition. (Beyond this the purport of
the Hoe. Member's remarks could not be collected in the
gallery, owing to the very low tone in which he spoke.)
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said that he would not

interpose any delay to the motion of his Noble Friend by
any remarks on the subject of the petition, if he bad not
been particularly requested to give it his support. He
would not attempt to canvass the question about to be
submitted by his Noble Friend, as no doubt it would be
amply discussed in the course of the evening. All that
he would say respecting it was this—that if Parliament
should extend the principle of direct representation to
Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, he thought it ought
likewise to be extended to the town of Sheffield. Indeed,
in the selection of important towns for representation, he
;lid not see why Sheffield, a wealthy manufacturing
trwn, containing a population of 80,000 souls, should be
omitted. If, therefore, lie repeated, the Legislature should
deem it advisable to extend the elective franchise to the
towr.s he had named, he would support its extension also
to Sheffield.
The petition was then brought up and read, arid ordered
to be printed.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, before commencing his ad-
dress, moved that the Order of the Day of the 19th of
March, IS2I, for the third reading of a Bill for tranfer-
ing the elective franchise to Leeds ; and that two other
Orders of the Day for the second reading of the Bills (we
did not get the dates) for extending the franchise to Bir-
mingham and Manchester should be entered as read. This
having been done, the Noble Lord proceeded. Though he
had not the smallest doubt as to the justice and expediency
of the proposition which he was about to submit to the
consideration of the Housa, yet he felt that much preju-
dice existed against it i❑ the minds of many whom he then
addressed. Many Hon. Members had such deep-rooted
dread of any thing like reform, from the fear of letting in
any visionary theories on the subject, that they were un-
willing even to go one step, however far removed from.
any such theory. To any such Hon. Members he would
beg to observe, that if ever reform was founded, not on
visionary but on practical grounds, it was that which he
should have the honour to propose to the House. He also
apprehended that objections would arise i❑ the minds of
those who were called the landed interest. Ile feared that

in the last few years a foolish jealousy had sprung up in
that House between the landed sad commercial interests.
Upon the nature or cause of that jealousy he would not
then enter, but would only hope that whatever it was
Hon. Members, if they did not lay it aside altogether,
would at least suspend it for that night.--(Hear, hear.)
—lf in a time of distress such as the present it was expe-
dient to unite men of all classes and shadee of opinion, in
the endeavour to find some shades of relief, so it was also
expedient that particular differences of opinion should not
hinder the dispassionate discussion of a measure which con-
cerned the general interests. He was likewise under the
apprehension that this motion would be opposed by the
influence of Government in that House ; yet he could not
but think, that if some Members of Government
should oppose it, it would be extremely impolitic to
bring the whole array of Government against such
a proposition, as that a large, populous, and wealthy
town ought to be directly represented in that House.
There was an old remark of Lord Becton familiar to every
one in the country, that " time is a great innovator." Had
that Learned person lived in the present day, he might add,
" taxation is a great innovator." He (Lord J. Russell)
would impress on the attention of Right Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, that there was leas feeling of liberality in the
people towards Government, and more suspicion of its acts,
in proportion as the people felt the burden of taxation, and
that burden was always borue with more impatience, if
not accompanied by what was felt to be co-extensive re-
presentation. In large-and populous towns the pressure
of heavy taxation was always severely felt ; but it would
be felt with inure repining and impatience when that town
was left without the privilege of direct representation.
The motion with which he would conclude would go to
supply this defect in the towns he should name. It would
be for leave to bring iu a Bill to extend the Elective Fran-
chise to the towns of Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds.
This, however, lie intended should be, not a permanent but
a temporary addition to the present number of Members,
for he proposed to introduce a clause in the Bill, if the
Howie should give hint leave to bring it in, to this effect,
—that when hereafter the Legislature should find it ne•
cessary to disfranchise any borough for corrupt practices,
the franchise should not be transferred, but let drop alto-
gether. So that when those boroughs should have been
thus dealt with, the number of Members would be reduced
to what it was at the present moment. He should also
propose that the qualifications for voting should be (as we
understood) such as they already existed in • most large
towns, but the right of voting should be confined to re-
sident voters, which would tend to shorten the time of
election—( Hear, hear)—and would also tend materially to
prevent bribery. The grounds on which he should rest his
proposition for this Bill, it would not be difficult to state.
It was a matter perfectly notoricus in history, when places,
rendered important by their extent and the wetath and in-
telligence of the inhabitants, were not represented, it was
the practice of Parliament to extend to such places the right
of sending Representatives to the House, and many statutes
were from time to time passed fur that purpose ; and
the ground on which the franchise was thus conferred
was, to use the words of the statute respecting Durham,
which he had then before him, " in order that they might
represent the condition of that place to Parliament."—
Thus, then, the principle for which he should contend
was formally recognized by several acts of the Legislature,
as not only not being repugnant to, but as forming one of
the constituent principled of the House of Commons.
Another reason in favour of his motion was this—and it
was on that account he had moved that the orders of the
day for the reading of Bill, fir conferring the elective
franchise on the towns of Manchester, Leeds, and Bir-
mingham, should be entered as read—that the House had,
on recent occasions, recognized the principle that those
towns needed representation, and that the ancient prac-
tice of Parliament should be applied to them. Ile felt,
therefore, that he had established one proposition—that it
eves the duty, and it was in the power of Parliament to
give representation to places of sufficient importance to
require it; and the other, that it had already decided in
the case of the three towns he had named, that it would
give the franchise when an opportunity occurred to ren-
der it necessary. He went in this case upon the broad
ground that Parliament was not bound to wait for a
vacancy in the representation in order• to confer the
franchise in the manner he pointed out ; for if it did
wait for such opportunity, there was but very little
chance of those towns bring represented here. It was
now ten years since he first brought forwin d the proposition
that when the franchise of a borough lapsed by corruption,
the vacancy created should be filled up by the transfer
of the franchise to a large town. Ministers at that time
met his proposition, he would admit, in a manly way.
Since that time, however, the franchise of other boroughs
had become forfeited, but no successful step was taken to
extend the franchise in the way he had proposed. Let tke
House but consider the difficulties which were opposed to
the endeavours to extend the franchise, when corruption
was found to exist to a great extent in a borough. First,
there was an examination in a Committee up stairs, and
when the difficulties of the direct proof of bribery were
got over there, the matter was brought down fur the con-
sideration of the House, and then they were met by the
conundrum of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Peel), that because the county in which the corrupt bo-
rough was situated sent only eight Members to Parliament,
therefore the franchise of the deliuqueut borough ought
not to be transferred to a large and populous town.—
(Hear, bear.)—But when all the difficulties were sur-
mounted in that 'Luse, and the 11111 sent up to the other
Home of Parliament, it was met by obstacles inure difficult
to get over. There were, it was well known, vet y many
that House (the Rouse of Lords) who were opposed to

the transfer to a largeristown under any circumstances.
There were others there who felt great difficulty in admit-
ting the evidence of bribery to be conclusive; but both
parties would join on the latter point ; en that the Bill
, would be thrown out without any appearance of hostility
to the general principle it contained. Thus, what was
done for the remedy of corrupton, instead of becoming a
remedy, would be found only to add to the evil. Such,
then, being the insuperable difficulties attending that
course, he was prepared to take another and a more simple
ground ; and he would put it to tl:e House to say, whether
the claims of the towns he had named were not so strong
for admission to the privilege of direct representation here,
as that the House ought to take up the qua stion of their
fitness of representation by itself, and go with it to the
other House.—(llear, hear.)—That course would have
this advantage,—that not being a mixed Bill of penalty
and of concession, the objections to it should be on one
broad ground, and then, if it should be rejected, the real
motives of the hostility to it would be apparent to the
world.—(Hear, hear.)—He would now briefly call the
attention of the House to the history of the progress of
those towns he had named, since the passing of the Act of
Union with Scotland, to show that since then their cir-
cumstances had so changed as that some of the stipulations
of that Act against the increase of the number of Mem-
bers for England ought not now to be applicable to them.
In the year 1708 the population of Manchester was 8,000.
In the year 1753 it was 27,000. In 1791 it woe 70,000.
In 1821 it was 133,000 ; and the number of inhabitants
in the town and the neighbourhood included in the Rill
for transferring the franchise front Penryn to Manckester
was 186,000. The population of Leeds in 1'771. was
17,000 ; in 1801 it was 35,000 ; and in 1821 it was
83,000. Birmingham, at the Restoration, contained a
population of 5,000 ; in 1700, 15,000 ; in 1781,
50,000; in 1791, 73,000; and in 1821 it had increased
to 106,000. Now he would ask whether this progress in
the extent of population was not such a change in the con-
dition of those towns as required a change in the sys.
tem to be pursued towards them, and called for a di-
rect representation in Parliament But the change in the
increased number of inhabitants was not the only one.
They had also advanced in the same proportion in arts
and industry, is wealth and intelligence. In Manchester
and its immeditte vicinity—he meant the parish in which
it was situated—the county rote was assessed on a rental
of '750,000/. He had asked a person well qualified to give
him the information he required, whether he might not
set down the property contained in and immediately round
the town at 30,000,0001., and he was told that to fix it
at that sum would be considerably to under-rate its real
amount. The poor rates of Manchester were estimated at
1E4,000/. per annum, and the revenue of the canals at
300,0001. annually. But no greater proof of the wealth
and importance of that great depot of internal commerce
could be adduced than had been furnished within the last
few years in the enormous undertaking for facilitating
communication with Liverpool—he alluded to the Liver-
pool and Manchester railway at present in progress—au
enterprise which cost a yearly expenditure of 55,0001.,
and which, ere completed, would require an outlay in
gross number's to the amount of 800,0001. The convey-
ance of goods by means of this project would henceforward
be accomplished at three times the rate of expedition now
effected in the carriage of letters, and for a mile and a ball
before it reached Liverpool it was conducted through a
subterranean passage. Nor was this opulent town de-
ficient in resources of another description, which equally
indicated its moral and intellectual advancement. Its
philosophical institutions were remarkable for intelligence,
liberality, and learning, in proof of which it was only
necessary to name the President of the principal, Mr.
Dalton, so well known amongst the professors of physical
science, who had distinguished himself by his invention
of an improvement in bleaching, for it was not now for •
the first time to be asserted that the higher branches of
science were intimately connected with the humbler de-
partments of practical domestic usefulness and household
convenience. When he considered, besides, that Manches-
ter was the mighty centre from whence the most flourish-
ing manufacture of the country radiated, he confidently
maintained that it was pre-eminently entitled to repreaen-
tation. Its goods were to be :teen in almost every quarter of
the globe, its productions were to be obtained in every part
of the world, wherever sail was spread or ship could pene-
trate ; but within the walls of that House its representatives
hail never appeared. As to Birmingham, it was truly de-
scribed by the Hon. Member for Bletchingley to contain
property ameunting to upwards of 300,0001. per annum ;
a fact which in itself was sufficient to establish its claims
to be represented. Then Leeds was the seat of another
great source of our commercial prosperity,—the woollen
manufacture,—and possessed equal pretensions to a voice
in- the Legislature of the country. It was probable lie
might be told that those places were already represented
by the members for the counties to which they respec-
tively appertained ; but he would appeul to the past expe-
rience of the House whether that could be considered an
adequate or fair representation. Those gentlemen who
were returned for counties were commonly attached by
property and connections to the landed istereat, and might,
for the most part, be said to have a permanent seat, after
they once had secured their election ; they therefore had
but little concern in subjects of paramount importance to
those towns which were only nominally within the sphere
of their constituents. How was it possible that the Mem-
ber for Lancashire, for example, however zealous he might
be,—and zealous he unquestionably wan,—could be able to
attend to all the various and complicated interests of such
a place as Manchester It was not to be expected, nor
were those towns partakers of the advantages accruing
front representation. The consequence was, that, instead
of being heard through their own members in that House,
whenever any question affecting the cotton, iron, or wool-
len manufactures was on the eve of discussion, the par-
ties interested were constrained to send delegates to the
metropolis, for the purpose of conferring with the Mem-
bers of his Majesty's Government, and endeavouring
to make them comprehend the true merits of such
question. Great, however, as was the evil of this sys-
tem, as it affected Menchester, Leeds, and Birming-
ham, a still greater evil he was persuaded had re-
sulted to Parliament itself.—(Hear, hear.) Did it not
prevent the inhabitants, numerous as they were, from
looking with any- confidence to Parliamentary discus-
sion ? Dad it not also prevent that House from assuming
the character of persons who equally represented all classes
of their fellow subjects, and so far detract from the autho-
rity which they arrogated ? More than one question was
even now pending in which those populous towns were
materially concerned. The East India Charter was one.
How could they pretend to investigate such a subject as it
deserved, when they had no eceurate means of ascertaining
how far it aft cted the interests of their manufactures and
principal exports in trade I—(Hear.)—Another such ques-
tion was that on the banking system ; and here he de-
n-tended how they could assume, in discussions of this
netnre, the appearance of men who were able to debate
them, posses. ing knowledge commensurate with their im-
portance, ignorant as they mint be of the li!clings and wants
of so large a portion of the community ?—(Hear.)—
Various objections, he was aware, might be urged against
his motion, but he would content himself with noticing
one or two of the principal. It might be said that such
measures were virtually prevented by the Union with Scot-
land and Ireland, as they would necessarily increase the
representation of the House of Commons. But he would
beg of Members who suggested :those objections to con-
sider whether such an increase could possibly do any real
injury to the weaker parties in practice. Assuredly the
presence of additional Members could not prejudice either
of these countries in the least, and in principle it would un-
deniably operate for their interest and advantage, as it
would afford them a plea and precedent for bringing for- ,
ward the claims of their own towns to being similarly re-
presented, if any of them should hereafter attain an equal
degree of importance. At the same time he would remind
the House, that neither of the Unions referred to had been
ever considered as compacts to be inviolably observed.—
(Hear, hear.)—ln the case of the heritable jurisdictions
the principle was encroached on, and treated as a au-
bordinete consideration ; nor was that the only caws in which
it had been set aside. The Actfor the relief of the Catholics
was avowedly an infraction of the compact, as it had been
formerly provide:i that the Members for Scotland should
always continue Protestants. But the argument founded on
this compact was triumphantly refuted by a Noble Lord in
the other House (Earl Grey), in one of the most eloquent,
luminous, and powerful speeches that it had ever been
his fortune to listen to. But how did he overturn the oh•
jection ? Not by showing that there was no infringement
of the compact contemplated, but by demonstrating that
Parliament, when acting to the best of their judgment for
the benefit of the whole state, was entitled to overlook
those partial provisions in favour of any particular depen-
dency. Another objection which he anticipated was this:
it might be alleged that it six members were admitted, the
principle, once acknowledged, would be extended to per-
haps 20,—perhaps 30 or 10, and so on indefinitivelv. The
petition front Sheffield would no doubt be laid hold on as
a pretext for enforcing this argument, which wo certainly
plausi'sle and logical in appearance, but nevertheless had
uo real foundation in truth. The three towns which
formed the subject of the present motion stood in circum-
stances peculiar to themselves, being the capitals of three
great branches of trade : but if Sheffield should at any
future period, attain the same rank, he saw no reason for
withholding from it a similar privilege. On like grounds
he would advtnate the extensipn of this principle to any

town in Ireland or Scotland, which might reach aueh an
eminence as was long since attained by Manchester, Bir-
mingham, or Leeds; but it was not probable that it
could ever be applied, with propriety, to more than four
or fire towns in our whole dominions at the utmost.
They would contend that theru could lie no limitation of
the principle; but he still asserted that it could not extend
beyond those cases already contemplated. The House, how-
ever, it should be remembered, were not always so delicate ,
or fastidious on the subject of an extension of principle. •
Had they enter tained any scruples of this nature when the
disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders of Ireland was
under consideration? That measure was introduced to
meet existing lucid circumstances, and Members well
knew that it was not intended to make it an excuse fur
going farther when the particular grievance which it was
designed to remove should be counteracted. Nevertheless,
abstractedly speaking, the same principle might be carried
to the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders in this

country, to the 101., 201, or 1001. annual incomes, or
even to an indefinite extent. The case of the Irish 40n.

voters, he repeated, was peculiar to themselves ; and the
opposition, on the ground of the principle's probable
extension, had met with neither encouragement nor
success. He had thus endeavoured to state the objections
of those who viewed his motion as a dangerous inroad on the
Constitution ; but he widely differed from many Members ,
in their opinions as to the quarter from whence danger
would arise. In his opinion, they had most reason to ap-
prehend evil from the Legislators who constantly and in-
variably resisted all endeavours at rational improvement
and reformation. Individuals of this complexion seemed .
to have mistaken the fabric of the Constitution for a
Grecian temple, perfect in all its parts, and complete in its
architecture as an edifice, which could not suffer altera-
tion without being injured in its symmetry and impaired
in its proportions ; whereas it was really a Gothic struc-
ture, susceptible of enlargement consistently with the in-
tegrity of its ornaments and the security of its duration.
In these times, when the intelligence of the people greet
apace,—when their moral strength waxed greater and
greater daily,—were they prepared to refuse giving their
consideration to the increased claims which such import-
ant accessions had brought along with them? was not
that House, reduced to its present state partly by corrup-
tion and partly by usurpation, in want of the additional in-
fluence, and talent, and information which might be.
thenceforward acquired by admitting so large, important,
and intelligent a class of the community to a share iu their
councils through representatives of their own ? Did they .4.
not require the aid of this moral and political reinforce-
ment to enable them to meet their enemies face to face,
and strengthen their dubious hold upon public opinion ?
When he looked at other countries the wisdom and policy •
of the :measure that ho suggested was forced even still
more imperiously on his conviction. In a neighbour-
ing kingdom they could not shut their eyes to the •it'
fact that a collision between royal authority and po-
pular
resistance was rapidly approaching, although all
must regret that some compromise was not contem-
plated which might save society from the consequences of
such a struggle.--(Hear.)—But it was for them to profit •
by the example, and awaken in time to a perception of the
nice mechanist: of their representative Government,
which in all countries and under all situations contingent
on the existence of a state, must be considered a piece of
machinery of very delicate construction. It behoved

thoFe who, like himself; were lovers of liberty without
disorder,—of peace without slavery,—to watch anxiously
at a period like the present, and endeavour so to accom- •
modate the system to the altered times and circumstances
as to render it worthy the respect and affection of the
people.—(Cheers.)—The Noble Lord then moved for leave
to bring in a Bill to enable the towns of Manchester,
Leeds, and Birmingham to return Repre.entittiree to serve
in Parliament.

Mr. 'WILI3RALIAIII rose to second the motion, but
from the crowd of Members leaving the House, and the
other noises in every part of it, the earlier observations of
the lion. Member were inaudible. When heard, he was
understood to say that he wets a little at a lose to undo-. •
stand the consistency of those who, having proposed awl
carried a change of the Jury system, could now come for-•q
ward to resist a change in the Representation, on the
ground that innovation was not to be tolerated. The Jury-
system was a most important part of the Constitution,
and that the Right Hon. Gent. opposite had not scrupled
to change.—in most important, beneficial changes, lie
would admit—but still changes. The Representation was . •
not a whit a more important portion of the Constitution
than that which all Jurists agreed was an integral part of
it, and at once the pride and the glory of the British Law. '

a .
It was an institution as important, though not more stn- • •
portant, than the representative portion of our Govern-
ment; yet the Reformers at the other side of the Hoinfe
had not scrupled to lay their hands upon it, and to re-
model it according to their own notions. The alterations
so made were improvements, unquestionably; but those a --
by whom they were made could not deny that they were.
Reformers. The landed interest, no doubt, were fully
aware of the defects in the present state of the Representa-
tion ; but it was observable, that whenever any change '
was proposed, they immediately endeavoured to turn that
change to their own advantage, by proposing increased re-
presentation of their own body. Every chauge was to be
in their favour, and against their rivals and opponents.-- .
He was perfectly aware that the authority of Lord Chatham
might be cited against his (Mr. W.'s) opposition to au in-
crease of the Representatives of the landed interest ; cer-
tainly the opinion of that Noble Lord was, that the
number of County Representatives ought to be increased ;
but that was because he thought them, and justly thought !'
them, less venal thau the Representatives of the boroughs;
not because he did not think the commercial and manufac-
turing towns inadequately represented, but because he eon.
sidered that the numbers opposed to the corrupt borough
interest ought to be as great as possible. He (Mr. W.)
was perfectly aware of the defects ig the county represeu-
tation, and he should be perfectly ready to support any
measure for its improvement. No measure could posasbly • '
do a greater service to the country than one having for its
object to improve the state of the county representation la '
various ways ; far instance, in shortening the duration of
elections, by improving the manner of taking the polls,
and by putting an end to time infamous riot and dehanchery
which prevailed at almost all County Elections, The effect
of the present system of county representation was to
place it all in the hands of the higher aristocracy. It wan
alleged that the towns mentioned by the Noble Lord did
not manifest that anxiety for the possession of Represeu-
tatiyes which would make them worthy of possessing that
advantage—nothing could be more contrary to the fact.—
At a meeting held at one of these towns, at which every
class and description of persons—Radical and High
Churchman, Whig and Tory—assembled and acted with
the most cordial and complete unanimity, the cry was for
a Representation. But whether they desired it or not, it
ought to be conferred upon them—for the power of send-
ing Members to Parliament was not only a right and a
privilege, but a sacred duty. He wished to say a few
words to those who would have nothing but a complete
and sweeping Reform. Now he was content, for the time
being, with accepting what could be obtained, never at
the same time foregoing what might hereafter be acquired.
He would put it to the advocates of a sweeping and gene-
ral reform, whether they had advanced a single step by re
jetting the practical though partial improvements within
their reach; did they not, on the contrary, rather retie-
grade? What his Noble Friend proposed he did not ac-
cept as the full measure of reform—as the full payment and
discharge of the debt which the Legislature owed the
country ; but he accepted it as an act of simple juatiou
and good policy—as one grand step in practical reform, in-
finitely more valuable than the most brilliant theories in
which the mind of a visionary would indulge; it wils ;}Qt
a payment in full, but it was a first instainaent, and as
such he accepted it—he took it as an cermet of good in-
tentions, as a means of averting the shock which some
Members apprehended—or, at least, of diminishing its
force, if it should come. He called upon the House to
support the motion of his Noble Friend, as they regarded
the great and important duties which they were called on
to perform.
Lord SANDON could not agree with the Noble Lord's

_ .
motion ; and therefore should move as an amendment that
it was expedient that all boroughs in which gross and no-
torious corruption prevailed extensively should cease bu
permitted to return Members to Parliament -
1 Yid iinit
the right to return Members taken from sushi borough,
should he given to some great unrep9.ented town, or

some of the largest counties.
Mr. TWISS—IIe conid not agree either in the motion
or the amendment that had been presented to the House,
not that he was disposed to set himself in opposition to
'ly p4a r't igeUae'
F '
why 81
every species of reform, but because he felt that he could
not adopt either of the courses proposed without cumpro-
ndsing his own judgment. With respect to the amends,
went that had been offered to the notice of the House, it
was not pretended by ally of the Hon. Members who lard
qi 4
preceded him that there was any great or crying gr',,,yalark
to
he
thatult at
House this
should moment,
course in future. As the law cf Et gland now stood, there
was not any one in this country who could not have the
privilege of elective franchise if he chose ; and therefore he
did not see that this question presented the great diffi-
cuhies which had been ;ittendant upon the Catholic Ques- •
tion. According to the arrangement made at the end of
eise
pledge and
b itself e tfl, 7% 4
1
the seventeenth century, it appeared to him that the
Crnwn could not increase the number of Mentlpexa in that

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They in
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two per
cbdoea

in its
ltera-
,aired
Itruc-

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meets
!' the

but
i the
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was

ome
its
e " to
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Lion

Hens ; and if ',this were •'the case, it became a serious
question for their consideration,. how far the House of
Cusmatona had any right to interfere. It was true that it
Was within the province of Parliament to do any thane
hut. he very much doubted how far it would be justified
in Meddling with what he strongly suspected ought to be
looked upon as the prerogative of the Crown, in some-
thing beyond a mere matter of form. -Besides which, if
e principle laid down by the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rue-
'ell) were once admitted, .they would never be able to tell
Where it was to stop. If Manchester, Leeds, awl Bir-
fniagham, were to receive the elective franchise, wily was
it nit to be extended to Sheffield, GI isgow, Wolvet hemp-
km, and other places which he could name ? If an as--
tenthly of 60,000 manufacturers had a right to claim the
Privilege of being represented, why were not bodies of
15,000 or of 1:4.000 manufacturers to lay claim to the
same privilege? Or why, if the small county of Rutland
"ill returned two Members, were not the more populous
ottuntiea of Lancashire, Staffordshire, or Middlesex, to de-
mand the right of returning a greater number? Well,
then, might the Noble Lord dread that the Sheffield peti-
tion which he held in one hand, was giving a blow to the
till which he held in the other ! He therefore thought
that the House was bound modestly, but firmly, to refuse
compliance with a demand which appeared likely to be so
endless. .The forty-shilling freeholders of Ireland had been
mentioned ; but it appeared to hits that that was not a case
in Point, for the depriving men with so low a franchise of
their vote, did not necessarily include the carrying the step
any higher, or any further. What he was Inset surprised at
'n the speeches which he had heard delivered that even-
ing Was that no mention had been made of any evil or
grievance.that called for the proposed alteration. If, then,
there were none of these, what danger could there be in
let tying the Constitution the same as at present? He
knew that it had lately been stated, and he supposed that
they would hear it again that night, that the House-of
Commons was inadequate to. express the opinions of the
People. If by that they were to understand the expression
allopinions that might arise in all seasons, he was driven
t° admit that they were not adequate for that ; but at the
lame time' he would contend that it was reasonable to
doubt whether the House of Commons had ever been
nit to express those opinions in their extreme popular
senae---.(Hear, hear.) In his opinion it was not only ex-
cusable in, but incumbent upon Parliament to vote some-
times on the Unpopular side of a question; they were not
there so much to represent the opinions, as to watch over
the welfare of the country. He fully concnrred in the
°Pittione so often stated, that the great amount of our taxes
arose from war; but, said some Hon. Gentlemen, if the
representation of the country were made entirely popular,
all this would have been avoided. Now this he entirely
denied ; and, not to waste the time of the House with ar-
guments of his own, he would quote to them an opinion
Which was at all times entitled to weight, but which on
this subject, and among certain Hon. Members, ought to
he particularly attended to. It was the opinion of the
Noble Lord himself ( Lord J. Russell), who, in Decem-
ber, 1819, had expressed himself on this point to the
following effect : " I do not pretend to say (said the
'"able Lord on that occrsion) that reform would
Make our Government less inclined to war, which,
it must be remembered, is the cause of our chief
hurthens. A fondness for war is not the fault of a
noinarchical, but of a popular Government." The Noble
Lord then went on to describe the number of popular Go-
vernments that had evinced this feeling, and added, " Such
system could hardly continue even in the most despotic
gate; and it is only by carrying the feelings of the people
With them that a free Governtnerat can lay on greater
taxes than an arbitrary King." He (Mr. Twiss), there-
fore, trusted, that the House would be very cautious how
they voted for a popular reform in the expectation of
taxation being thereby reduced. Before the House voted
for the motion of the Noble Lord, they should remember
the grounds upon whiCh many Hun. Gentlemen proposed
to support that resolution. They did so—not because
they were satisfied with the extent of the motions—but be.
cause, as the.seconder.of the motion had candidly stated—
he looked upon it as the first instalment of a debt, which
ought long ago to be paid.. He thanked that lion. Gen-
tleman (Mr.. Wilbraham) for. that -statement;' and he
trusted that the House would afford .it its due weight, be-
fore they came to the decision of voting in favour of a
Motion so supported.
Lord AIORPETII said the state of the country bad un-
dergone a great change within the last fewlears. The
people were every day acquiring intelligence, and with
that intelligence- they obtained moral power ; but it was
the misfortune of the time, that while a great portion of
the country was thus advancing in moral power, it Waa
retrograding in physical power. The people were becom-
ing snore enlightened; but they were at the same time be-
coming more distressed ; and when they saw the population
of Sheffield petitioning, and those of Birmingham asso-
ciating, be.thought there were signs of those times in
whichit was not quite safe to resist the just wishes and
reasonable remenstrauces of those who now claimed a par-
ticipation in .the advantages of a free Representation....._
(Hear, hear.)—A•Noble Relation of his bad proposed an
amendment to the same effect as that which had been car-
ried in 1819. But the moment be heard those resolutions
mentioned, he felt satisfied that they presented in them-
selves an insuperable objection to their being adopted.
Since the time these resolutions were passed, they had dis-
franchised Grampound and Pcmaryn, and they were tardily
Proceeding. to legislate with respect to East Retford ; but
ton years had passed away in the interval, and he would
ask, where were the Representatives of Leedi, of Man-
chester,, and of. ,Birmingham ?—( Hear, hear. )—ln his
opinion the adoption of the amendment of his Noble Rela-
tion would lead to fresh delays and fresh disappointments ;
and the-great question of a reform of the Representation
which in tire present instance—
wouldn decimum vestigia retulit annum "
probably he allowed to rest altogether: or return
under their consideration in the course of another ten
Y.eate•—(Hear, hear.)—For his part, he was satisfied
that
the propositions-of his Noble Friend involved nothing
rseet,ew in principle, or inconvenient in practice, and he was
stnined to give them his entire concurrence. No
honest man Id I
eons- lay his Land on his heart, and, looking
at the aoaount of taxation, in the fifteenth year of peace,
La..inadrets sincerely that
in which all reductions were resisted, de-
that such things could have taken place, if
therepresentation had been reformed. The character of
l
House, it should be recollected, did not stand very
ingtbh;inr.tpreinciples or their whichcould justify a
opinions of the people. There was nothing
refusal of the claims conduct
of the petitioners, for these reasons
he gave his cordial support to the Noble Lord's Resolution.
Lord VALLETORT looked on the motion of the Noble
Lord,hatwithi the advanced guard of those Reformers, who
very little address made a violent and ill-directed
assault on a former evening, against all the political in-
stitutions of the country [S tms of impatience be-
Ilan at this moment to .—I
manifestrem°selves on te Opposi-
.9on aide of the House, and the Hon. Member was from
o'n.ts atise audible only at intervals through the remainder
sir his •
speech' Ile said he perceived that the advocates
ofloss
i discussion were at all times disposed to exhibit their
t, by sileneirer all these who were disposed to
ivith them ; butlie was not to be put down in that
4rl'l m
' the attempt with him would fail. Those
'''
ji,tune there as the representatives of the people, re-
a ,s 1
" soniething to tickle the ears of their constituents,
tliey had not this question they must get some other.
rived fl
not wean to say that there would be no benefit de-
fruro satisfying- men's minds-( Hear, hear)—but he
1uen,,,1% contend, notwithstanding all the fine-spun argu-
th sistie
. they bad beard, that Reform would produce noi
ufthk „ g'ol.—(Hear.)—Adverting to the declaration
liked
Itumn• Member fur Westminster (Hobhouse), that he
that W.4'44 Government, lie (Lord Valletort) must say
e a ..
We
1 on the
stiong one, although those who wed to
nthtirwit;itireeltattlit,e3ntlignlig have na7oonl;;jewctiitohnthtoema
in tl 7:7/;vee n):
course.—(lleir, hear, and a laugh.)—lle re-
-1,, 4,1
~,awever, that he liked a strong Government, and
and lie hsjiu'llY well a strong and consistent Opposition,
erent course
of king i,ed to see the House return to that state, instead
divided into a number of parties, all taking a dif-
.
Dr. I.ltst
lINGTON said, that an experience of twenty-
irtl veggies
f° P soave en that House had strengthened all
.his early
ift"11). Let respecting the propriety of Parliamentary Re-
the GonnY man look at the ini-erable condition in
a: House pv,ernment of this country was placed—with
Whether they
ing the Catholic re 41/vninons constituted like the present one.
convinced of the propriety of conced-
ilinent tv'eY
sity of eeonothy, Claim,, qr disposed to yield to the neces-
son or arg were obliged to rely, not on the rea-
number of Borou"'elt would carry conviction, but ou the
means induce to lea-holders whom they could by any
14.9., mine
when
l them support. The time, however,
as a realoulefoniau could assert tile antiquity, of an
f'feP -#O44S the " its continuance. Alterations had
they 4, oe :e whole system of our laws; and were
000 s.h.at a system of representation, framed
ja tipaesto,i77. kat abases which had been acknowledged
the tame titrislijiO4:"" 4"d
a boroogh
two Charles—and when at
it was then, te• Qr They must either" at;miltent'lataint uttip'eti:yurcerbpeilsaeiiettadititouln'neapiTeirzt)eehdaa?ts
of
it shotild • remain as it' •
ur
the
Present
is if it is contended drat
bad toldniteliel
two periods m, diffelin':t Piesent ; fur how can it suit
chejlea (13roughatu) 1101,7bweorrf,e4r Win-
told

powerful than thirty sentences, that the
tehool-
master was abroad.—(Hear, hear. )—Could they send
him home again? Could they blind the people now._
.(Hear, hear.)-11i4 course .was as certain as that of the
arrows from the bo.r, and as irrevocable.—(Hear, hear.)—
There was no greater evil in the present state of the re-
presentation than that it had deprived the great landowners
of the country of the just and legitimate influence which
they ought to possess in proportion to their property, and
had driven them to corrupt boroughs. Were it not.for
that, they would have the influence they ought to have,

Although they would not return mere nominees to the
House, their recommendation in the representation of
counties would have the weight to which it was entitled.
The Noble Lord had referred to the influence possessed by
Government in that House during the Administration of
Lord North. But let it be recollected to what a dreadful
state of degradation and ruin the Administration of Lord
North, by the aid of that influence, brought the country.
It was true that the means by which corruption was ef-
fected had been changed. Formerly it was effected by
payments in cash ; of late years it had been effected by
payments in places. It had been asserted, that no prac-
tical inconvenience had ever• been suffered by any great
town, from its not being specifically represented in Parlia-
ment. But was that true? Was it true that neither Bir-
mingham, nor Manchester, nor Leeds, had ever suffered
any inconvenience from not being represented in that
House ? lie was old enengh to remember the time when
the town of Birmingham suffered a great and direct incon-
venience from not having any representative in that House. 1
He alluded to the year 1812, when, in consequence of
the Government measure of the Orders in Council, the
trade of Birmingham was reduced to the last stage of de-
gradation and suffering. Of the Members who represented
the county of Warwick, he wished to speak with the
greatest respect ; but they were wholly incapable of
comprehending the real merits of the question. One
of them indeed distinctly said in the House, that while
he was anxious to state the distress which Birmingham
was suffering, he was utterly incapable of explaining the
cause of that distress. But it was not Birmingham alone.
Any town having a hundred thousand English inhabitants
had a right to have some individual in that House on
whom they would have a just claim to attend to their
complaints, and to endeavour to obtain for them redress.
It was well known that the inhabitants of populous but
unrepresented towns were frequently compelled to go from
one Member to another, and beg that he would take up
their cause, well knowing that although the Member• for
the county might lay their petition on the table, he would
be unable to explain their wants and wishes to the House.
After all the consideration which he had been able to give
to the subject, he was persuaded that the House would not
be able long to withhold a reform of the Representation,
in sonic shape or other ; gradual, if they pleased—guarded,
if they liked—limited at first to such cases as those under
consideration, but proceeding on the same principle as that
which was the principle of his-Noble Friend's motion, and
applying equally to every town in the country entitled by
its population to the privilege of the elective franchise.
There could be no better criterion of the right to that
privilege than large numbers and great wealth. "Sir,"
continued the Honourable and • Learned Grntleman,
" I am in -my conscience convinced—and I do not
speak it in hostility to his l%lajsty's Ministers--to
whom, on the contrary, I am deeply grateful for more
than I expected from them—but I am in my conscience
convinced that a pressing time is rapidly coming upon us.
What was once an inconvenience, has now become so
grindingly oppressive to the people, that measures more
efficacious, taking a wider range, and of much severer
character than any hitherto proposed, must speedily be
adopted. If the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite wishes
to assume a bold and defying aspect in the midst of the
difficulties which are approaching, Le must appeal by his
conduct to the intelligent, to the well-educated, to the
moral portion of the community to suppert him in his
necessity ; • and ir, divesting himself of all ancient and

inveterate prejudices, he will look the truth in the face,
and, disregarding all other considerations, will make the
good of the country at large the vole guide of his actions,
he may retain his place in his Majesty's Councils with
infinite advantage to the people, and with infinite honour
to himself; and notwithstanding all the obstacles which
may present themselves to him, and in the greatest ex-
tremity to which he may be reduced, he may rely in per-
fect safety and confidence that they will bear him up
triumphantly against all the efforts of disappointed cor-
ruption and iniquitous ambition ; and enable him to
confer the most inestinsable advantages on the land whose
destiny is intrusted to him."--(Hear, hear.)
Lord VALLETORT explained.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY would not detain the House

long. He was sure they would agree with him that,
however various opinions might be with regard to the
principles advocated by the Noble Lord whose motion was
under consideration, the tone and temper with which the
Noble Lord hail brought the subject forward could not
be too highly praised, nor' too frequently imitated,-
- (Hear, hear.)—lle was obliged, however, to differ from
the Noble Lord's conclusions. 'The Noble Lord had said
that the British Constitution was not a Grecian Temple—
perfect at once in all its proportions, and incapable, there-
fore, of improvement--but a Gothic structure, to which
additions and improvements might at any- time be made
with advantage. He (Sir G. Murray) rejoiced that it
was a Gothic structure; he rejoiced that it was in the
style of architecture which was the favourite of our ances-
tors. He was no great admirer of modern edifices ; and
he rather believed that the Noble Lord himself had been
as disgusted as himself at the efforts of a neighbour-
ing nation to erect a Grecian Temple, which, however,
when completed, was found to be far inferior in beauty
and durability to the old English Constitution.—Hear,
hear. )—He was no enemy whatever to legitimate reform.
He opposed no barrier against real improvement of any
kind; nor did he draw any line of demarcation on those
points which he had sworn never to pass. On the con-
trary, he was quite willing to admit that from time to
time, some amendment was necessary—some repair of the
Gothic structure. It was upon that principle that he sup-
ported the measure of the last Session, by which a
body of men were brought back within the pale of the
Constitution who were pushed out of it in unfortunate times.
He was quite ready to admit the justice of the principle of
the Noble Lord, that it was expedient to give Representa-
tives to the great towns of the kingdom ; but he could not
agree to carry that object into execution in the way which
the Noble Lord proposed. He was perfectly ready, on the
occasional disfranchisement of any corrupt borough, to
transfer the right of Representation to a great town ; but
he had a great objection to augment the number of Mem-
bers of that House, and thereby to destroy the proportion
which existed bettveen the different interests which it
represented. It had been said that there was a disincli-
nation in another place to disfranchise boroughs. Whether
that was the case or not he did not know ; but he was
satisfied that if any such disinclination did exist, it would
be increased in the event of the adoption of the Noble
Lord's proposition ; and on this ground—that having in-
creased the number of the Representatives of great towns,
the Representatives of boroughs must be retained, in order
to skrve as a counterbalance. As to popular opinion, he
had a great respect for it ; be believed that the people were
generally, if not always, disposed to do right ; but they
sometimes fell into bad hands, and then, what was called
popular opinion, was, in fact, only individual opinion, and
that not of the most valuable character. He was at a loss
to understand what the Hon. and Learned Gent. meant by
the ri•commendations with which he had concluded his
speech. He was at a loss to see what complaint the lion.
and Learned Gent. could make against his Right Hon.
Friend. His Right Hon. Friend had but a few nights
ago brought forward a measure for improving the judica-
ture of the country, by which, however, a large sacrifice
was made of Government patronage. The expressions of
the lion. and Learned Gent. would imply, that his Right
Hon. Friend was not pursuing the course of public benefit.
But the conduct of, his Right Hon. Friend, both in the
last and in the present Session of Parliament, was pre-
cisely that which the Hon. and Learned Gent. had recotn.
mended.

General GASCOIGNE said that he had, last Session,
voted for a similar proposition, and that he had not heard
anything since to induce him to alter his opinion. He
certainly did not agree to confer the elective franchise at
once upon the town in question ; but if the Bill were in.
trainee(' in the Committee, the franchise of East Retford
might be given to one of the proposed towns, and the
others might obtain the franchise, as boroughs against
which corruption was proved were disfranchised. He
was quite opposed to the principles which the Hon. Um-
ber for Aberdeen and other Hun. Members had broached,
with respect to universal suffrage and Radical Reform ;
but were it only to avoid such rash innovations, he would
recommend a concurrence in the Noble Lord's motion.—
He strongly recommended to the Noble Lord by whom the
amendment to the motion bad been proposed, to withdraw it.
Lord SANDON did not feel it his duty to withdraw his
amendment.

General GASCOICNE and Sir G. Munaav explained.
Mr. WYNN regretted that notwithstanding the temper
and moderation with which the Noble Lord had brought
forward his motion, he must vote against it. If he ac-
ceded to the motion, he should accede to a motion for in-
qessing, the number of Members in that House without
limit. Such a measure would be highly dangerous. The
actual increase proposed was only six Members added to
six 1111040 and fiftpeiobt, and was nut in itself is pp

tans.; but haw mid he, how could the Nouse, raid the
next Session any Gentleman who might propose that Shef-
field or Halifax, which was more populous than Le:4ls,
should be represented—=hew could he then resist such a
motion? If it afterwards were to be proposed to extend
the principle to Huddersfield, to Stockport, to Rochdale,
to Wakefield, or to any other of the large towns of the
neighbourhood, on.what principle should he concede the
present question? Could the House resist such a propo-
sition? It would always be asked what evil (-cell
result from adding two Members to the representa-
tion? and to add only two would not be an evil; but
the indefinite increase occasioned by adding two for
every town would bean intolerable evil. _(Hear, hear. )
Let the House look at what had happened since the Union
with Ireland. Ready us he was to do justice, at all times,
to the talents, ability, and eloquence of the gentlemen who
represented that part of the empire, he must say that since
that augmentation the House was much less adapted to
carry on business than before its numbers were extended.
He had sat in the House before the Union with Ireland,
and he never bad given any vote that he regretted more
than the vote he gave against Lord Grey's motion when
that event took place, to withdraw from that House as
many Members as would be equal to the number added for
Ireland, and to make room for them by disfranchising
boroughs when an opportunity offered. He regretted much
that lie had opposed the motion of the Noble Lord, for
much more benefit would have accrued from his proposed
arrangement than the one which had been followed.
The towns he had alluded to had as many claims to be
represented as the towns it was now proposed to give
representatives to. He did not mean to argue that the
provisions of the National Union with Scotland might not
be revised by the Legislature, but it was part of that
Union that no change should be made in the Scotch burghs,
as secured at the Union. If anything was sacred in that
Union, it was that the proportion of the representatives then
established should be maintained in favour of the weaker
party, which had merged its own Parliament in the general
representation of the country. The proportion of Repre-
sentatives for Scotland then fixed was settled by a refer.
ence to the proportion of taxes then paid by the two
countries, and the proportion of their respective population
and wealth. Had not, then, the progress of Scotland in
wealth, in population, in trade, in the amount of its con-
tributions to the public, and in intelligence, been as great
as the progress-of England since the Union ? He thought
that it had, or even greater than that of England ; and if
he looked at the towns of Scotland he should find them as
deserving of additional Representatives as the towns of
England. There was Glasgow with only- the fifth of a
representative, and Paisley, with other towns, that had
stronger claims than Leeds. He could not, therefore, ac-
cede to the preposition of the Noble Lord. At the same
time he felt a difficulty in voting for the amendment.
Mr. HUSKISSON would detain the House for a very
short time on this occasion. He did not wish to go at
length into the discussion of the question ; at the same
time he could not give a silent vote on this motion. His
Noble Friend who proposed the amendment had said that
he had come to the view which he had taken on the sub-
ject with considerable difficulty, and after much consulta-
tion with his friends. He (Mr. Huskisson) would also
say, that in like manner he had come to the view which he
hail taken on the subject, after considerable deliberation
and reflection, and he was sorry that he did not take the
same view of it as• that adopted by his Noble Friend the
mover of the amendment.--( Hear, hear. )—His Noble
Friend's amendment, if he (Mr. Huskisson) understoood
it, went, in the first place, to state that it was most de •
sirable that these great manufacturing districts should have
a direct representation in this House. His Noble Friend
thus commenced by admitting the existence of the griev-
ance; and so far he (Mr. Hnskisson went along with him
in his view of the case. But he next found that his Noble
Friend, instead of applying a remedy to this great practical
and acknowledged evil, came forward with the proposition
that whenever three boroughs should be guilty of a great
crime, their franchise should be transferred to those large
manufacturing towns. The remedy, therefore, which the
Noble Lord proposed for this great evil depended upon the
detection of a great crime. He would beg to remind the
Noble Lord, that upon this very question, as to the
detection of guilt in a borough, and which he made an-
terior to the application of a remedy to the existing evil--
that upon that very question this and the other
branch of the Legislature had never been able to agree.
—(Hear, hear, bear.)—Therefore, if the House should
vote that the non representation of those great towns was
a great practical evil, and that the remedy was to be found
in the detection of guilt on the part of delinquent bo.
roughs, it would be hopeless for us ever to attempt a re-
medy for it, for, as had been seen in the cases of East
ftetford and Penryn, we should never be able to apply it.
—(Hear, hear.)—lt was upon these grounds that he (Mr.
Huskisson) could not go with the amendment proposed by
his Noble Friend. He ilid not think the observations of
his Hon. Friend below him (Mr. Wynn) possessed of
much weight; for the principle on which he insisted
would prevent the House from exerciaing its judgment and
discretion in all future time. He did not conceive it ne-
cessary to go into the details which had been dwelt upon
by his Hon. and Learned Friend, the Under Secretary of
State, in his very elaborate speech, which were grounded
principally upon the great danger of innovation, and which
(consisted of arguments that might be found in any speech
made of late years, either against reform in Parliament or
upon the Catholic question.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
—Neither did he conceive it necessary on this occasion
to travel into the wide question of Parliamentary re-
form. He could not avoid observing, in reference to
the arguments which had been drawn from the Union
with Scotland against the motion of the Noble
Lord opposite, that such arguments were deserving
of but little notice ; recollecting, as he did, that
upon every occasion, when it was obviously neces-

sary for the good of the country and for the essential inte-
rests of the State to depart from the mere letter of the Aet
of Union, Parliament always did so, and it would indeed
be contrary to common sense to follow a different line of
conduct. The same arguments bad been applied to the
great measure of last Session, which was charged as a de-
parture from the Act of Union with Scotland, and they
had been then triumphantly refuted. His Right Hon.
Friend, when he laid so much stress upon those arguments
drawn from the union with Scotland, should bear in mind
that the Act would not be near so much departed from by
the proposition of the Noble Lord to-night, as it bad been
long since departed from be the introduction of 100 new
members into that House in consequence of the Legislative
Union with Ireland.—(Hear, bear.) This question, then,
should be determined by its justice and fitness; and he
would say that the House, in deciding it, should ask itself
what injury or injustice it could inflict upon Scotland by
conferring benefit upon England.—(Heur.) By the ad-
mission of the Noble Mover of the amendment, and of all
who had spoken in support of it, they were now dealing
not with a fanciful and imaginary, but with a real and
ascertained evil. Now, by giving representatives to those
great manufacturing districts, the HOUFC would at once pro-
vide for the evil under which they were at present suffer-
iog, and which materially affected their interests, end
concerns, and pursuits. To such a measure of reform he
(Mr. Huskisson) should give his cordial support. As to
a more extensive Parliamentary reform,—a measure
founded upon the principle of a general revision, recon-
struction, and remodelling of our present Constitution,—
to such a general revision, and change of our former Con-
stitution he (Mr. Huskisson) had been always opposed ;
and while he had a seat in that House, he should give it
his most decided epposition. He conceived, that if such
an extensive reform were effected, they might go on for
two or three Sessions in good and easy tunes, and that
such a reformed Parliament might adapt itself to our mode
of Government, or the ordinary concerns of the court try ;
but if swell an extensive change was effected in the Coxisti-
.

tution of Parliament, sure he was that whenever an occa-
sion arose of great popular excitement or reaction, the
consequence would be a total subversion of our Consti-
tution, followed by complete anarchy and confusion, and
terminating either in the tyranny of a fierce democracy or
a military despotism, these two great calamities maintaining
that natural order of succession which they have been always
hitherto seen to observe. He was, therefore, opposed to
such an extensive change and revision of our representative
system. It might be easy to raise objections to the bo-
roughs, and by keparati lag the representative system into

is various constituent parts, to point out evils and
abuses in several of them; but it was a waste of
time, and a perversion of common sense, to look at
it in that way. He would take it as a whole, and,
regarding our present system as one aggregate, he
was opposed to any material change in it. It might
be easy to take to pieces all the parts of such a complicated
system, but be doubted that it would be equally possible
for human skill to unite its component parts again ; and it
appealed to him still more doubtful, that even if put toge,
tiler again, it would ever work as well for the counrry as it
had hitherto done.—(Hear, bear.)—He therefore wished
not to be misunderstood when he gave his vote us support
of the motion of the Noble Lord oppw,ite, and he wished
to be understood as being opposed to the substitution of
any system of representrtion in lieu of the present system.
lie should be better pleased if they could commence with
the transfer of the franchise of East Retford to Birming-
ham, and he should have been glad if the decision of the
House on a late occasion had enabled them to do that now.
The Right Hon. gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, when that subject was berm:: the lIoqs; on a former

. . .
eVenhig,tair f-,-!'i4eserited that as measure full of danger.
• and had kindle advi:rd him (Mr. Iluskisson) not to stand
in the swamp and rotten hollow of East Retford, but to arise
out of it by extending the franchise to the neighbouring Imo.
deed of Bassetlaw ; he (Mr. Huskisson) was sorry that he
eould not adopt that view of his Right Hon. Friend, who .14,1
prevented them from now being able to move for the transfer
of the franchise to Birmingham, by bringing up his regular
troop on that occasion, defeating the motion then brought
forward for that purpose, and tints rendering it necessary
on the part of the Noble. Lord to bring the question before
the House in its present shape. The question now was,
whether greater danger would accrue to the constitution
and to the existence of a good feeling on the part of the
people of this country towards the House of Commons,
by giving the representative franchise to these extensive
manufacturing districts, than by withholding it. Would
any one contend that the want of representatives, with
whom they could be in daily communication, and who
would effectually watch over and protect their important
interests in the legislature, was not a great hardship upon
the population of those districts ?—(Hear. )—Surely the
granting such a necessary privilege to them could in no
way endanger our liberties and our constitution. T. say
that the interests of these important districts were better
attended to in Parliament, in consequence of their not having
representatives in this House, was a paradex which he was
sure no Hon. Gent. would propoie or defend. His Right
Hon. Friend near him ( Mr. Wynn) was opposed to the trans-
ferring the franchise to these three great towns, the capitals
of their respective manufacturing districts, until we should
have the same number of corrupt boroughs disfranchised ;
and he said the district of Halifax was superior in amount
of population to any of those towns ; and he asked, why
should not a call be made for a Representative for Sheffield
upon the same principle as that upon which this motion
was founded ? But it should he recollected that Leeds was
the capital of the woollen manufacture, and therefore might
he justly taken as the Representative of that interest ; that
Sheffield, though with a large population, and an extensive
manufacture, would be fully represented by Birmingham,
which was the head of all that manufacture; and that Man-
chester was, in a certain degree, justly regarded as the
capital of the cotton manufacture. Thus, by giving the
• franchise to these three great towns, all those different
interests would be represented in that Hon e. His Right
lion. Friend the Secretary of State had given the House to
understand, upon a former evening, that upon some future
occasion he might acquiesce in granting the franchise to
these towns. He (Mr. Huskisson) conceived that if they
were to give Representatives to these manufacturing dis- '
tricts at any time, it should be done now ; this was
the occasion for giving them that privilege, if they
were to give it to them at all.—(Hear, hear.)—But
he was afraid, that whatever this House might do, it
would be disappointed in its efforts by an opposition in
another place.—(Hear.)—He fully concurred in the opi-
nion expressed by his Noble Friend, who had been once
Secretary of State, and who, when a Member of this [louse,
said that the greatest blot in the history of this country in
the eyes of all intelligent and well-informed persons was,
that such an important class of persons as the great manu-
facturing population of this country should be almost corn-
' pletely without representatives in Parliament. In the same
manner Lord Liverpool, when a Bill was sent up from this
House, transferring theelective franchise from Grampound
to Leeds, stated that it would be desirable that the words
" Leeds and Yorkshire" should be omitted in the Bill, and
the selection of the place left to the prerogative of the
Crown ; and what did his (Mr. Huskisson's) Noble Friend,
the Noble Earl, add upon that occasion ? He said, that if
it were left to the prerogative of the Crown to select the
place, it would be understood that the franchise would
be given to some large and populous town. It was upon
such principles that he (Mr. Huskisson) supported the
Noble Lord's motion on this occasion. They should not
allow technicalities to stand in the way of real practical
improvements.—(Hear, hear.)—He did not think it very
safe for Government never to come down with important
measures to Parliament until they had been driven to do
so by overpowering majorities in that House. The Noble
Lord who proposed the amendment was young, and he
would yet live to see the day when the representative
franchise must be granted to the great manufacturing dis-
tricts. He (Mr. Huskisson) candidly confessed, he
thought that such a time was fast approaching, and
that, one day or other, his Majesty's Ministers would
come down to that House to propose such a measure, as
necessary for the salvation and safety of the country.
He thought there was little chance of extending the
franchise to these towns by the disfranchisement of rotten
boroughs, and he would recommend the Noble Lord, if he
should obtain leave to bring in a Bill, to provide by it that
a Committee of this House would be competent to decide
the question in future ; and that whenever it had sufficient
evidence laid before it that a borough had been guilty of
corruption, it should report the same to the House; that
the subject should then be referred to a second committee,
as a committee of appeal, who should again take all the
facts of the case into consideration ; and that if that
second committee should confirm the conviction made by
the first, that the disfranchisement of the borough should
forthwith take place, without rendering it necessary to
submit our privileges or rights to the judicature of any
tribunal elsewhere.—(Hear )—That would be the best
way to proceed, instead of going before an unwilling Jury,
and before parties who could thwart all their efforts to
assert their privileges.—( Hear, hear.)—There was
nothing new in this principle : it was acted upon by.
every election committee in that House. He would only
mention the instance of the Bath election committee, who,
when corruption was• proved against the corporation,
decided that every person paying scot and lot in that
city were entitled to vo'e ; thus establishing a prin-
ciple which, if acted upon in other places in England, I
would introduce a far greater change in the repre-
sentative system than ever could be effected by the
me..sure which he (Mr. Huskisson) recommended.
He despaired of ever seeing the representative franchise
transferred from a rotten borough to a populous ma-
nufacturing district, unless in some such way as that he
had mentioned. He was anxious that the fair claims of
these great towns to have representatives should be strongly
impressed upon the Legislature. It was upon such grounds
that he supported the motion of the Noble Lord. The
Noble Lord's motion would certainly have been more satis-
factory to him if it bad gone, as he (Mr. Huskisson) had
the other night recommended the House to do, to transfer
at once the franchise from East Retford to the populous
and important town of Birmingham : but he• hoped that
however he and the Noble Lord might differ in some details
on the road, they might arrive together at the end'of their
journey.—(Hear, hear.)

Lord W. powLETT stated his intention to support
lie motion of Lord John Russell.

Mr. BRIGHT contended that the plan of amending the
representation, which had that night been proposed by the
Noble Lord, was no innovation of the Constitution, but in
strict coati' mitt' with the plan upon whieb the House of
Commons had been formed, and by which the number of
its Members had been gradually increased until it had be-
come what he honestly believed it to be,--the real repre-
sentation of the people. As to the assertion that the large
manufacturing towns were adequately represented by the
county /Umbers, he could by no means agree to it. The
education of county Menthe's was not in general directed
to those minute details of commerce with which it was in-
cumbent that the representatives of manufacturing towns
shonid be intimately acquainted. The argument that if
they granted the elective franchise to those three large
towns they could not refuse to grant it to other unrepre-
sented towns of equal population, was, in his opinion, de-
serving of little attention. When such towns rose up in
the country, the proper time would arise for considering
the propriety fl extending the elective franchise to them also.
Mr. PEEL should follow the example of the Noble.
Lord in that path in which alone be knew that he should
be able to fellow it successfully_lie meant the moderation
with which the Noble Lord had approached the discussion
' of this important question. The Noble Lord had brought
it forward with a temperance and ability which were cal-
culated to conciliate assent to a doubtful proposition in as
great a degree as it was possible to conciliate it. Long as
he had been in Parliament, and frequently as he had been
present at discussions upon Parliamentary reform, it so
happened that it had never been his lot upon any occasion
to take any part in the great debates to which he had
listened upon it. He had felt the subject to be so com-
plete), exhausted on each side by the pre-eminent ability
which had been devoted to it, that he had always con-
tented himself with giving a silent vote, and thus he ap-
proached the present discussion unfettered, except by the
votes which be had uniformly given against Parliamentary
reform. Though he had not taken any active part in prior
debates, he had maturely weighed the argurrients which
had been advanced both in favour and in opposition of re-
form, in the spirit of a witness of the contest rather than
in that of a partisan ; and having maturely weighed those
powerful arguments which were lint brought forward by
Mr. Burke, and afterwards no less ably by his
late Right Hon. Friend Mr. Canning, he confessed
that they had established to his mind conclusive proof
of the great danger that there was in tampering on slight
grounds with the Constitution.--(Hear.)—He thought
that the argument of those two great men, that we were
not to seek the principle; c' ti.te ieposentaiiiin Of the Ilouse
of CO,IIIIM9S, either in any finespun theories of demo-
cracy, or iii any of the institution, of the free republics of
ancient times, and that we could. not find, in any portion
pf thC 1441407 of gnglandl ap' pripciele of I

democratic representation to Rave at a ineclA for I recoil.
struetinn of the representative system,—he thought, he
said, that those arguments were decisive upon the points
..^7 'VII4I they were advanced. His late Right Hon.
Friend, Mr. Canning, hail argued that the constitution of
the /louse of Commons was fettedsd on prescription,—
that we lived iii a limited mouareity,—that we had a
Howie of Ltrds, and a King,—that the House of Com-
mons was only one branch of the Legislature,—and that if
we admitted a democratic principle of reform, we should
give to the House of COMMONS that overwhelming power
which would render it inconsistent with the existence of
the House of Lords or of a limited Monarchy* As to
the effects produced by the House of Commons, and the
operation of that assembly upon the country, he must say
that he saw nothing in either which led him to think that
an alteration in its mode of construction was neceesary.—
For his own part, he utterly distrusted the prophecies which
had been uttered respecting the beneficial results of such
alteration. It had been said that the adoption of a scheme
of reform would, by the infusion of a greater portion of
the popular voice into that assembly, discourage the ex-
penditure of public money and the embarkation of the
country into improvident votes for war. He believed that
the doctrine of universal suffrage would find but few ad-
vocates in that place ; but if HMI. Members were to be
rendered infinitely more subservient to the will of the
people than they were at present, he doubted much whether
the House would be a whit the less inclined to war than it
had hitherto shown itself. The examples of the ancient re-
publics of Rome and Athens, and also those of the republics
of more modern times—he meant Genoa and France, which
all for a time had possessed popular governments, would not
by any means favour the inference, that because the Go-
vernment was popular there was a disinclination in the
people to involve their country in war and its concomi-
tant expenditure. Looking at the history of our own
country, he must say that he did not think that the com-
mencement of the various wars which England had waged
during the last century had ever been against the inclina-
tion of the people. He knew that in many cases the rati-
fication of peace had been unpopular ; but in no case that
he was acqusinted with had the commencement of the war
been unpopular. That there had been periods in which
the people hid shown themselves tired of the continuance
of the war he readily admitted ; but nothing was more
different, as the House would agree, than the commence-
ment of a war and the bringing of it to a conclusion. He
had lately had occasion to read the able and eloquent
speech which Mr. Burke made in 1780 to his electors at
Bristol—at.that election, of which the result, as every
body knew, was unfavourable to his wishes. What was
the cause of his unpopularity? One of them undoubtedly
was his attempt to dissuade the House of Commons, first,
from embarking in the American' war, and afterwards
from continuing it. He (Mr. Peel) well recollected that
Mr. Burke stated manfully to his constituents that he had
done all he could' to persuade the legislature not to sanction
that war. He said that at the first outbreak of it, Bris-
tol was divided in opinion as to its fitness and propriety ;
that the unfortunate victory, which we obtained at Long
Island, altered the state of that opinion ; that the whole
nation was excited by it to almost universal phrenzy ; and
that being so excited, lie wes unwilling to present him-
self to his constituents, so unpopular was he aware
that he had become. With regard to the war which com-
menced in 1793, it was impossible to contend that its com-
mencement was averse to public feeling. He recollected
that almost immediately after it broke out, Mr. Fox had
moved in that House a resolution, condemnatory of it. He
found only 46 Members of the House inclined to support
that resolution ; whilst the number of those who declared
themselves in favour of the war was 278. It might be
said, that at that time no more than at the present was the
House of Commons the representative of the people. To
meet that argument, he had taken the trouble of dissecting
the division, and so far was it from being the fact that the
Representatives of the most populous places all voted with
Mr. Fox, that in Mr. Fox's minority there were only to
be found six County Members, and 13 Members repre-
senting any towns which deserved to be called populous.
He therefore inferred that the representative system bad
been more popular than it was,. there would not have been
any disposition either in the House or in the people of whom
it was the representative, to discourage war. Neither
could he come to the conclusion that it was necessary to
make a reform in the construction of the House of Com-
mon; to encourage Hon. Members to make useful reforms
in our civil institutions ; and if any thing bad been wanted
to confirm him in that opinion, he had found it in the
speech which had that evening been delivered by an
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The greater part of
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech was founded
on the a•sumption that there was an improper controul
exercised over the House by the Minister of the
day, and a want of the proper controul which
ought to be exercised over it by the people. And
yet what did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman say?
" Matters," said he, " are very different now from what
they were in the years 1806 or 1807. Then we should
have been unable to carry any species of reform in any
branch of the public service. We should have - been met
with the cry of innovation, and have been borne down by
large majorities; but the case is not so now; let any use-
ful reform be proposed, either in the army, or in the
navy, or in the law, and that reform is sure to be adopted."
If, then, the House of Commons were so constituted as to
adopt all useful reforms which were proposed to it in other
cases, surely the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not
established the existence of a necessity for its reforming
itself, because upon all occasions it had come to the con-
clusion that a reform of itself was neither useful nor neces-
sary.—(Hear, hear.)—The very circumstance which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had quoted as a proof that
a reform of the House of Commons was necessary, was to
his (Mr. Peel's) mind a convincing proof that it was not
i necessary.—(Hear, Lear.)—He did not believe that, under
any other constitution of the House of Commons, there
would be a greater desire than there was under the pre-
sent calumniated system to do every thing to promote the
happiness and to secure the true glory of the country.—
' ( Heer, hear. )—The adoption of the wild scheme of
universal suffrage would not, in his opinion, incline
the House more than it was inclined at present to
protect the people from oppression, and to give
every facility to the exertion of their energies and in-
dustry. Speaking of universal suffrage, he could not help
being struck by a circumstance which had come to his
knowledge in consequence of a question'which had been
put to hint on a former evening by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Clime, respecting the law of a country, which
had the benefit, if benefit it were, of acting on the system
of universal suffrage. He was anxious at all times to
speak of the United States with respect, and it was not
from any feeling of ill-will or dislike that he was now
going to draw a contrast between their institutions and
our own, which was not very favourable to the former.
It would he in the recollection of the House, that the
Hon. and Learned Member for Clare had asked him whe-
ther he hed heard of a law which had been passed by the
legislature of one of the United States—he meant Georgia
—by which, under pretence of erecting a guard against
infection, a quarantine law had been passed against every
man of colour in the British dominions. Since that ques-
tion had been put to him, he had had an opportunity of re-
ferring to the law, of which that enactment undoubtedly
formed a part. In Georgia, whore the plan of universal
suffrage was in full perfection--
. Mr. O'CONNELL—No, no; there is in that country
a slave population.

Mr. PEEL apprehended that every freeman in Georgia
had a right of voting, and therefore, as far as the whites
were concerned, the legisllttive assembly of Georgia owed
its origin to universal suffrage. Now, making 411 allow-
ances for the feelings which were naturally generate -I by
the possession of slaves; he did not think that any House
of Commons elected under the present system would, even
if it had possessed a slave population, have passed an act
which contained two such clauses as wt-re now in the act
passed by the Georgian legislature. It was enacted, that
if any chive or free person of colour should cireolate,
cause to be circulated, or should aid in c;,uuliiinn or in
causing to 'be circulated in the. :nate of Georgia, any
written paper exciting slavea to insurrection, that person
should be punished forthwith with death.—(Hear, hear„)
—That enactment was extraordinary enough ; but the
second enactment was still more extraorjaary. It ;.ruietta,
that if any negro, free person of co4r, mr.White person,
should teach any negro to, riAii or write any character,
either printed or written, the said negro, free person
colour, cr white person, should be deemed guilty a a mis-
demeanour, and punished by fine and whipping, or by
fine or whipping, at the discretion of the coop-, the fine not,
to exceed 500 dollars, but the imprisonment to be at the
discretion of the court.-7(H4q.)--,makipg every
anee, be repeated, (or the feelingt wV,ich ha Georgia must
! naturally be excited by the possession of a slave population,
Ile must again repeat that he did not think that we, with
our election system, and without any system of uni.msal
ping
ays
kind-
vnstc:auenlvlfitertanraiseg,
beiie,nstilghl;vll
ivu;calic,dAni:
ipriez
looking
oeingaele)dabfo,st,oissitti,etur,
hihnrl
(ooalatalthlvt;ie,tt,e.vii
ancient
hypotheticalll4ll: e
ends
tn,
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hearted enough to teach a n;tg;,:a to read: - No ; that could
of
we
ont
the House and at the practical effeeitiyint:tO.,.oti‘tien:l(:l„:ll4ltel:lnaenioatiiihilt-e;
ficonudnutizrelalsonouforrecxui,,sttiii;
triieyarvisxt,tolit
d con-
tingeoi good which bonne lion. Members anticipated _he
thought without sufficient

plislmment of reform. With respect to the proposition of
the Noble Lord, be could not help remarking that it ap-
peared to him that great objections existed against the
adoption of his limited plan. Some of those objections
had been ably pointed out by the Noble Loid who bed
moved the amendment ; and here he would remark, that
nothing could be more unfounded than the lion. and
Gallant General's insinuation, that the Noble Lord, in
proposing it, had acted in concert with his :d.j. sty', Go-
vernment. For his own part he could safely affirm, that
until he heard it that evening in the House, he had not re-
eeived the slightest intimation that any such amendment
would be moved. To return, however, to the considera-
tion of the original motion. The Noble Lord who brought
it forward, proposed that they should add to the House of
Commons six fresh representatives, who were to represent
three large towns, whose names he had mentioned ; and in
order to get rid of the objection which naturally arose to
his plan of adding to the number of the House, the Noble
Lord further proposed to get rid of the additional number
which he thus created, by gutting it off whenever any
dereliction of duty should hereafter be proved against
any corrupt boroughs. The Noble Lord's propsaition
had been met by the objection that it was contrary to the
articles of union with. Scotland and also with Ireland, to
make any addition to the representation of any put of the
united empire; and though he (Mr. Peel) had listened to
the various answers which had been given in the course of
the debate to that objection, he had not found any of them
to deserve any weight. He believed that the House, by
acceding to the Noble Lord's proposition, would commit
an infraction of the act of union with Scotland—:n in-
fraction which there was nothing in the Act of last Session,
to justify. Every member who had yet spoken had taken
it for granted that the Act of last Session was a violation
of the Act of Union. He had contended lust Session that
it was no such thing, and if so, it could be no jus'ification
for the motion of the Noble Lord.. As 45 members were
fixed by treaty as the number of representatives for Scot-
land, with reference to the number. for Englatel, he held
that to add six members to the number of representatives
for England, without making a proportionate addition for
Scotland, would be a direct infraction of that treaty. He
agreed with the Noble Lord that they were not compelled
to go back to Acts passed in the year 1706 to controul
their deliberations or even their acts for the present
benefit of the country; bet what answer he. would ask
the Noble Lord, could! be make to Scotland,. if she
were to ask him, " Why, when you are adding to
the representation of England, do you not m :ke a
corresponding addition to my representation?" It
would shake the confidence which the people of Scotland.
—felt(Drainlwiling criesteHous
e, if
ofo
the Hesse o
!" and
agreedin this prohositirui.
maintained that it would shake that confidence. Scotlend,
he admitted, had no right to deprive us of any benefit on
account of the Act of Union ; but then Scotland had a
right to demand that the same measure of justice which we
meted out to ourselves should at the seine time be meted .
out to her.—(Hear.)—The Noble Lord's proposition was
therefore objectionable, not merely because it would add
six additional Members to the Representation, but also be-
cause it would render it accessary to add a proportionate
number to keep up the comparative equality of the Repre-
sentation for Scotland and Ireland. He had also another
objection to it. The number six, which the Noble Lord
had selected as his limit of additional Members, was an
arbitrary number. It proceeded upon no fixed principle,
and if the House consented that night to adopt it, they
would soon have similar applications to the present, show-
ing that Sheffield and Halifax had as good a right to he
represented as Manchester and Leeds; and, having eiveu
up the principle, they would have great difficulty in, re-
turning a proper answer to such applications. It likewise
appeared to him that the proposition of the Nob e Lord
was not consistent with the dignity of one branch of the
Legislature. He had heard of supernumerary Knights
of the Bath, and of supernumerary Coinmissieners
some public boards ; but he bad never before heard of
that which it was now proposed to give to the Reuse, six
supernumerary Members of Parliament, to be provided for.
according to the phrase of his Hell. and Gallant Friend,
as casualties might arise—a plan which was novel in prin-
ciple, and had no benefit to countervail the evil to which
it might give rise.—(Hear.)—Look at any piedic esta-
blishment in which sup, rnumerariea were allowed, and
see what was the consequence. Where the number of
Commissioners was fixed, it was only necessary to state
that fact, and there was an end to applications ; but if time
Board admitted sapernumeraries, each applicant thought
that he had particular grounds on which he oneht to be
appointed, and thus applications were made without end.
Thus it would be with regard to the representation if the
House should assent to the Noble Lord's proposition,
Why fix on six supernumerary member.? Why not have,
more? With respect to the operation of the elective
franchise as a safety-valve, he did not think that those
places which were not represented were more open to dis-
turbances than those which were represented—that Man-
chester and Leeds were not less tranquil than Nottinglutre
and other places, which- posselied -this safety-va1ve......
When he considered the increased wealth and importance
of Manchester, whilst he admitted that, popular repre-
sentation was necessary, they had not suffered by the
absence of it. Again, although Sheffield had not been
so prosperous as Leeds and Birmingham, that was -no
reason why it should be excluded. Although he dissented
from the motion of the Noble Lord (Russell) he could
not vote for the amendment of the other Noble Lceej
(Sandon,) because the assumption of six additional Mem-
bers would be inconsistent with the Act of Union of Eng..
land 'and Ireland, and because it opened the door to coil.
stant inroads. He would also remind the Noble Lord,
that one of the first appeals that would be made, after the
adoption of the measure, would be for an addition to the
landed interest in the House.—(Hear.)—Because if in the
number of Members there were 40 commercial INlembote
to 60 county Members, and therefore six to four, if the
Noble Lord now added a proportion of six to nothing, the
proportion was not equal. On these grounds he (Mr.
Peel) opposed the motion ; and he thought the einendment
open•to objection. Time Noble Lord (Sandon) proposed
that the House should punish corruption and bribery
wherever it should be found to exist. But it was the
duty of the House to do so, and be (Mr. Peel) was
prepared to co-operate with the Noble Lord, in so
doing. But before the House had a ease before it,
why should it tie up its hands as to the appropriation
of the vacant franchi,e ?—(Hear.)-4iow did the House
know what might be the circumnstences of the next case ?
The Noble Lord proposed that the tiouse should pledge
itself as to its future intectious, either to give the privilege
to counties or laree towns. The motion was exceedingly
vague, and he (Mr. Peel) saw no object that could be
gained by it ; but ho did see a great objection in principle
in the !louse tying itself down to a meesure, without
knowledge of the circumstaneee et the case. Bribery
nsshfoerurilendeloitlnoevaecinict:oiernuetnaft:y),rdotcrbo:mtipglote'
might exist in a small borough, which might be properly
punished by throwing the votes into the hundreds. Bet
tbietiyo,retlthethe
p privilegeprods oft the :46 crime
te,
At all events, it was exoeedingly
use
to tie down its hands by a measure of this king, and on
this ground ha must oppose the amendment, The course
he should take would be the same as en the other night,
If the motion of the Noble Lord (Anna) was negatived,
the Noble Lord (Sandon) ;insight propose his amend •
mnent as a substantive :notion. One Word in reply to
what fell from the lion. and Gallant General (Gsscoyne),
who stated that the Government had not the confidence
of the country, and that lie differed from Ministers not
only on time Catholio quoation, but on other points; and the
Hen. and Gellant General had been severe upon his (Mr,
Peers) political conduct. But cuique **wee; when the Hop,
ate; Gallant General taunted leim (Mr. Peel) with de-
serting his former course,_ should have selected some
better occasion for 44;g it, than when foe; deserted hie
own course, or it any rate was about to vote for the nine
Lion of she Noble Lord (Russell), With respect tot tho
re „sic of the Hon. amid Lee... Teed Gentleman (Dr, Lush--
ington), he agreed with Slim that it was not right or eon.-
sistent with the duty a a Minister of the Crown, so to
teiffeechtiin4eltfliet‘oVbnjetCletas.
104 duty thus to act ; and ho (Mr. Peel), whatever might
be the temporary sacritit!e he made, should continue to act
patty
tua.ass toubtre„lyuseinreeoinussti:ttennutenitciftoirt
touptphleatel.ps
as lie had done.—,..(}tear.) When the Hon. and Learniz.;„
Gentleman spike of pursuing that line of conduct tvlsmigV4
spelt;;} scorn popular app!Auso, whilst it promoted, the
lieved
tilaintstehief
tenets a the c.utittiry, he (Mr. Peel)
claring
toast '".Y there
weie Lem
oil the other side, which were to lee
' guarded against—henttnlexan4tideefoenrsruinigtintgoopettcblit
of He (lied iaso)
cumnm
noed by
~..z,,ettilic;ectloAtturtynsttrihyo;a(dlHtlieerea rdsb. )eadi i t
self
II eiultsroe. otihfietteodutise:mpu,ill:cel:.l
of
true course was the inediutnleethat they slmoult aloe be the,
servants
xlvolsiejet,iitgl: tiomef ofa tßphiaegriii):l4::
lii4l,le gratified by the cant and manly mnanner
let
with deliatit as en auspicious circumstance %g the
greet cause he lead so. long advocated, that lee hod heard a
Afinister of. the Crown give hissentimeete with *degree of
candour and temper which he 110 never before seen tee.
plied from that quarter to citiestion.—(!lear.)—Ho
trusted, therefore, rite few observations witts which
he proposed to, mitreble the House, he should meet deviate
ken jkat course which it bad given libel each high wise
fnetien to see pursued by the Rigt:t Uon. Gent., or- stray
NUS that feeing he (Mr, yogi ) had' expressed, in the hoke

he might not lose sight of the moderation observed by the
*Noble Lord who had introduced the question, if he (Mr.
B.) stated his objections to the opinions which were so
ably and temperately supported by the Right Hon. Secre-
tary. And if, in following the Right Hon. Gent. through
the line of argument he had adduced, lie (Mr. B.) should
advert to the grounds upon which he (Mr. Peel) had
fixed their foundation, he (Mr. Brougham) might find it
necessary to advert to the general question of Parlia-
mentary Reform, instead of confining himself to the
question immediately before the House, lie begged to
be considered as doing so unwillingly. The Noble Lord,
who brought forward a motion confined and specific in
its object, had yet deviated into that general question of
Parliamentary Reform ; but he (Mr. B.) would rather a
great deal that he had confined himself to the specific pro-
position, which a man might support, although lie were
opposed to the general question of Parliamentary Reform,
as he believed was the case with the Hon. Member op-
posite anti the Hon. Member for Durham, who had de-
clared their adhesion in the present instance because they
were opposed to a sweeping alteration. But since the
question had been broached in its generality, he could not
refrain from following the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
was not one of those who believed that if a larger portion
of popular opinion had been infused into the Councils of
that House by means of a more popular representation,
that a perfect security would be afforded against that most
enormous of ail calamities—that calun'ty which was
boundless in its extent, and unmeasurahle in the
evils it entailed--that calamity, in short, which in-
volved every form, degree, and species of public injury—
he meant a state of war.---(Hear, bear.)—And if
he could fur a moment be led to believe that bringing a
greater quantity of popular feeling to bear upon that
House would have the effect of making even that slender
alteration, which it could alone effect, in the security
against that most horrible of all calamities, he would not
say that he would decide against the measure of reform,
but it certainly would make hint pause and review that
which had been the opinion of his life.—(}fear, hear.)—
He freely confessed that this security might not be in-
creased by the change contemplated, but he contended
that principles and practice alike might satisfy them, as
they had satisfied him, that this security would not be
lessened.—(Hear, hear.)—lle agreed that the American
war anti the French war were not simply the work of the
existing Parliament. He said not this so much in praise
of those who had preceded them, as out of common jus-
tice. No; lie allowed that that criminal love of the false
phantom which was worshipped by its silly votaries under
the title of National Glory, then pervaded all classes of the
people. lie allowed that all men then looked with a feverish
anxiety for those trophies which were to be purchased by
the tears, and blood, and treasure of their country, and by
the enduring woes of the existing generation. While those
miseries which know no end—those curses which never
die were inflicted upon their children, who were now in
sorrow, in sadness—in all but hopelessness, reaping the
bitter fruits which had been bequeathed to them by the folly,
or madness, or criminality of their ancestors.—(Loud
cheers. )—He acknowledged the crimes of both these wars—
the American and the French war—were not confined to
the Parliament ; but they were shared with those who re-
turned the Members to that House, and with those who
were neither representatives nor constituents. The com-
mon cry and the general feeling urged them on, and so,
forsooth, the community was implicated in the crime and
folly of those wars. But there was a remark to be made
upon this subject ; why did not the representatives of the
people, though they were not the sole originators of these
wars, impose some restraint upon the delusion of the
nation ? Why did not they, in whom such pure wisdom
was presumed to reside, look with a more philosophic eye
upon the state of things ? Why did not they, who were
infleenced by no popular feelings or opinions, who, as they
were told, were the representatives of the talent and learn-
ing of the nation, why did not they interfere to check the
delusion of the day, anti convince the unfortunate people
of their error ?—(llear, hear.) In the various panegyrics
which he had read upon the House of Commons, if be
remembered rightly, there was one which applauded
it as being partly composed of popular Members, who
were returned by the voice of the multitude—and
of others not so chosen, who represented the
wisdom, the knowledge, and the intelligence of the
country. Why, then, lee would ask, did they not
check that irregular motion upon the part of the people—
that motion which in their infallible wisdom they ought
to have seen must have entailed upon them the most direful
effects ? But did they do so ? No, all that could be urged
in their favour was, that the people were as bail as the Par-
liament ; but they eorld not deny that the Parliament was
as bad as the people. There was another point on which
he wished to touch—a point which, to his great surprise,
had escaped the Right Hon. Gent. and his Hon. and Learned
Friend. In the beginning be freely confessed that the
Parliament was backed and incited by the people, and that
therefore there 'inlet have been a war whether they fancied
it or not. Now the assertion was at least a hundred years
old, that in some cases the rabble were right, and in some
cases they were wrong ; here they were wrong. It was true
that in the years 1776 and 1777 the people were wild for
war—it was alto true that Mr. Burke had fallen into some
disgrace with his constituents for advocating contrary mea-
sures; but this, be wished to observe, arose in a great inea
sure out of local circumstances; without meaning to offer
any offence to the Hon. Member for Bristol, he might take
leave to remark that the good city of Bristol was particu-
larly interested in the question_—(Laughter.)-13ut the
people in general, after the French hail taken part in the
American war—whatever might have been the feeling of
certain contractors and jobbers in particular parts—did eer-
tainly see their error; and lie could decidedly say that, ge-
nerally speaking, the American war had outlived its popu-
larity—that the French war hail also outlived its
popularity was a proposition so clear that it could not be
denied, The people who suffer from the calamities of a
war were always those who first wished to have an end of it,
rather than their rulers, who, in the discharge of their
splendid duties, end in the compromise of their high honour,
were too apt to forget the sufferings of those beneath them ;
therefore, thought both wars might have been produced
under a more popular representation of the people, yet
world they have been brought to a more speedy conclusion.
The Right Hon. Secretary, in alluding to the Americans,
and he (Mr. B.) was disposed to concur iss that feeling of
respect, end even to add, esteem arid friendship for that
people, so far as their conduct would allow ; the sentiments,
however, of the Right Hon. Secretary were not always
those which he had heard from that bench—he, therefore,
hailed them with much pleasure; he regretted with the
Right Hon. Secretary that so disgraceful a net of regulations
should exist upon the statute book of any country ; but he
denied, as strongly as he might, that they proved anything
against the great question of Parliamentary Reform.—
Now he maintained that they would not afford the
slightest iota of a reason even egaieet that species of
returns which was usually designated as universal suffrage,
and proceeded to an extent he had never advocated. No,
the cruel, the disgraceful, the inhuman statute of
Georgia did not afford the shadow of a shade of argument
against reform. Ile said, on the contrary, that if he were
disposed to maintain the expediency of universal suffrage,
he should rest hie lint on that disgraceful page, and declare
that it was because the representation was restricted—be-
cause there wee not, in ties whole body it affected, one single
voice raised in the choice of thee Legislature; and for this
season was it that. page blackened in the eight, and condemned
the code of Georgia—it was true that they had there enacted
the most cruel and revolting penalties—against themselves ?
Against their constituents? Against the .Members of the
Legislature? No ; but against those whom they never
once allowed to raise their voice in the choice of a repre-
centative. These were cruel statutes enacted against those
Who were there the coloured population, wherein one made
it a capital offence against any one who should teach a
slave to read or write—a law which it was quite clear
could never have been passed if these slaves were capable of
admission to the Legislature or Representation. The Right
Hon. Gent. had said that this House would trot do so—that
this House would never enact such statutes, He had a
very high reepeset for that House, and should be extremely
loth to offer it the least offence, but he doubted if he could
trust it if such a proposition were laid before it in the regular
way, and if they were in the same situation with the legis-
lature of Georgia ; for it was most specially to be taken into
consideration that, supposing they had a race stamped with
a marked difference, and that by a municipal law, co-existent
with the very law of nature itself, they ware prohibited
from all interference in the legislature and goi,ernment of
the eountry, that House, it might be inferred, would act as
he could show they had done on other occasions—one case
was that of Ireland ; be was reluctant, however, to rake up
recollections that might be better forgotten, or to make
anything bordering upon a personal allusion, He wished
merely to refer to matters of history, and looking thus, what
law did he find in our oldest English Colony—in Barbadoes,
which was called Little England? The law was tlitts
tl.at if any white person should by inadvertence or so forth
(enumerating all the varieties of chance-medley anti roan-
'slaughter) kill a person of colour, he should go free, but if
be should kill him under those circumstances which con-
stituted a rounder, that he should be fined in the sum of
11/. tits. 2,1.—( Hear, hear, and laughter. )—Now he should
boldly take upon himself to say, that in all Northern
America no such law disgraced their Statute Book ; a law
produced under those most unfortunate of all circuni-
statics, when a passion of fear mastered deliberative legis-
lation, He felt that it might be tiresome to the How to

argue those questions which had been so often discussed be-
fore; but he could not avoid feeling that they had acquired
a sort of fresh interest from the temperate manner in which
they had been that night considered. One of the last
points on which the Right Hon. Secretary had dwelt was,
the excessive influence which would be given to the House
of Commons by a truly popular Representation. The ar-
gument was one which, if not originally Mr. Burke's, had
at least been rendered his by the genius with which it was
applied ; and it went to this:—the influence of the people
over the Commons would become so great, and the strength
of the House, from its being really as well as nominally a
representation of the people, would be so excessive, that
there would be no security for the House of Lords, or even
Majesty itself. But he would ask, what was it that really
supported the Crown and the Aristocracy, but the circum-
stance that the majority of the people preferred a Govern-
ment composed of King, Lords, and Commons ? What
security had we even with the corrupt boroughs in their
present state; even if no popular voice could be heard in
that assembly, what was in fact practically, soberly, and
calmly speaking, that which gave security for the perma-
nency of the present institutions, not only of the Aristo-
cracy and of the Crown, but of that House itself, except
that the great bulk of the people, however they might be
for the moment discontented and dissatisfied, were a loyal
and orderly people, and, if even tolerably well treated,
were not desirous of revolutions?—(Hear.)—ln his con-
science he believed tleit that was their best security ; and
he had no desire to see a people so attached to Kingly
Government—so attached to the Aristocracy that he would
venture to say no man who might have seen all the world
besides, would ever have seen any people under the sun
more attached to them—he said he had no desire to see
such people treated with indifference. Those who were
in favour of Reform hoped to see not these institutions at-
tacked, or their influence diminished, but the influence of
the people more regarded. They wished to substitute in-
fluence for force, love for fear, and confidence for distrust ;
and by so doing they 01001 confirm the stability of exist-
ing institutions, but weaken the popular attachment to
them. He felt that in thus going into the general ques-
tion he had been drawn away from the proper topic of the
discussion, which was, whether the three great towns men-
tioned by the Noble Lord should have the privilege of
sending Representatives to Parliament. He would not
deny that popular opinion and feeling had found their
way into that House, but his objection was, that they
were too long in getting there; and in proof of this he
would mention not a recent subject--for he wished to
avoid creating uneasiness in the minds of any men—but
one which had long gone by, and which remained long
enough to be the greatest disgrace upon the Legisla-
ture—he meant the African slave trade, which had been
condemned by the whole country twenty years before it
was abolished by Parliament.—(Hear, hear. )—His Hon.
Friend, the Member for Tregony, had alluded to the
practical evils felt by the country in consequence of
Manchester, Leeds, and Birmingham, having no repre-
sentatives in that House. lie would refer them to one
strong instance of these evils. During the discussions in
late years upon commercial distress—discussions in which
these towns were so deeply interested—they sent up
deputations, who held a sort of Parliament of their own
on the other side of Palace-yard, and were obliged, as
they had no representatives of their own, to apply to
Members for other towns, and to entrust to them the task
of laying their opinions and wishes before Parliament.
They were obliged to rely on strangers for that which
should have been done by their own representatives.—
( Hear, hear.)—These towns felt the pressure of this
evil, and that single circumstance made them change
their opinions on Parliamentary Reform ; and from
the friends of things as they were, and the opponents
of any change, they swerved round to the other
side, and were now in the van of those who 'called
for a temperate but a practical reform.—(Hear,
hear.)—This motion seemed to him to be almost without
objection. It was not, as it had been supposed, an in-
fringement of the Treaty of Union with Scotland ; for he
did not hesitate to assert that that treaty, while it asserted
the right of Scotland to send a certain number of Peers and
Commoners to Parliament, did not limit the number that
England was to have. But the treaty did affect to pro-
tect heritable jurisdictions; yet in 1746 they were alio-
lished, the argument being the salus populi, to the con-
viction of which the Scotch Peers and Commoners had
yielded, and the heritable jurisdictions for the safety of
England and the well-being of Scotland, were abolished.
But after that, what was the Union with Ireland but a
Parliamentary Revolution, not a Reform ; it added 100
Commoners, and he did not know how many Peers, to
time Parliament—and yet, though that union as-as
strongly debated in Ireland and gravely discussed here,
the Scotch Representatives did not object to it as an
infraction of their Treaty of Union. From the
terms of that Treaty and the practice of both
countries, there was certainly no objection to
the present motion, which wile a restoration of, not an
innovation upon, the Constitution. There was one topic
more against which he hoped the House would be on its
guard. It was compromised in the question, " Where
will this end ?" Such an answer to a motion would pre-
clude all improvement. Arm him with that topic, and
And him men simple enough to be misled by it--(Cheers)
—and then, if he had no other principle or doctrine, pro-
vided he were backed by men timid or thoughtless enough
to be scared by such a maxim, he would desire no better
security for things as they were, the whole of things as
they were, and nothing but things as they were.—
(Cheers.)—They would never see improvement* of any
kind—never reform—nor would abuses ever be attacked
with the slightest prospect of success. He hoped and
trusted better things, both from the Right Honourable
Gentleman and from the House. He said, with the
Right Hon. Gent., let the Government proceed on their
own principles, and towards their own good purpose--
let them not be deterred, o❑ the one hand, by fears of
the doctrines which he proscribed and repudiated ; but let
them not, on the other hand, be attracted by the silly,
groundless, unreasonable chances of that mischief which
had no charms, when it was not founded upon reason, in-
formation, and sound principle—let them love that popu-
larity which followed, but was not sought after—and let
that Right Hon. Gentleman respect the feelings of the peo-
ple and the dictates of his own good judgment; and if he
did, there was no doubt he would be found among the
warmest and most sincere supporters of this motion.—
(Loud cheering.)

As soon as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had re-
sumed his seat, the cry of " Reply !" arose : but it
was quickly drowned in the still stronger cry of " Divide,
withdraw !" and the gallery having bee❑ cleared, the House
divided, when there appeared—

For the motion - - l4O
Against it lBB
Majority against the motion IS
The Howw, after disposing of the Orders of the Day,
adjourned at Half-past One o'clock-.

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE-(THIS DAY.)

FROM LLOYD'S.

DEAL, FEB. 23.—Wind W.—Arrived from London,
the Pres'ilent Matson, Robertson, for Bermuda; Elea-
nor, Snell, for ditto ; Harris, Mellish, for Constanti-
nople; Fame, Strange, for Santa Martha; William
Mitchell, Partridge, for Jamaica ; and Solvay, Head, for
St. Lucia.

PORTSMOUTH, FEB. 23.—Wind \V.—Arrived his Ma-
jesty's ship Cordelia, from Gibraltar.
PLYMOUTH, Fan. 22.—Wind W.S.W.—Arrived the
Armenian, Wilson, from St. Michael's.
FALMOUTH, FJAs. 22 —Wind W.S.W. to S. W.—
Arrived the Duke of Marlborough packet, from Lisbon,
sailed the 14th inst. ; and the Lapwing packet, from the
Mediterranean, sailed from Malta the Bth ult., Cadiz the
14th inst., and Gibraltar the 11th. Sailed the Princess
Elizabeth packet for St. Domingo, Jamaica, &c.; and
Calypso packet, for Brazil.

The Dapatch, Barrett, front Charente to London, was
abandoned, water-logged. She was fallen in with the
19th inst., in lat. 48. long. 7.

The Delas, Harvey, from London, airived at Smyrna
in 24 days.

The Benjamin Rush, Dufl, from Baltimore, has ar-
rived at Liverpool.
The Salvage, Wills, from St. Übes; and Liberty,
Purney, front Gilboa, have arrived at Bristol.
The Martha, Wylee, from Alicant, has arrived off
Kinsale.

FUNERAL OF LAVALETTE.—The burial of
Count LAN-ALETTr: was attended by a large number of
friends, mongst whom were the Duke nt.: BASSANI),
Prince LATOUR D'AUVERGNE, Cgtillt ALEXANDER DE LA
IlocurroucAuvr, the Marquis DE SALIIOLIET, General
MATHIEU DUMAS, Count DE AIONTLOSIER, Baron BIG-
NON, NlEcurti, lONY, DE NORWINg, CIIAUVELIN, VOISIN
DE GA RTEM SE, &c., the pall being borne by the Lieu-
t"""ntB General, Grand Officers of the Legion of Honour,
Counts SyttAsTtANl, LAMA Rots, and Ex E1.31A
Fri itch Parr.

tuu
Tbr

LONDON,
WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 24, 1830.

His MAJESTY holds a Council at Windsor
Castle this day. Most of the Cabinet Ministers
left town this morning for the purpose of attend-
ing the Council.

A deputation of gentlemen connected with
the Mining Districts, amongst whom were Lord
PAULETT, Lord LOWTHER, and Sir
JAMES GRAHAM, had a long interview with
Mr. HERRIES, and the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, at the office of the Board of Trade
this morning.

Despatches have been received at the Foreign-
office this morning from Lisbon ; they are dated
the 13th instant.

Despatches have been received at the Colonial-
office from Malta and Gibraltar.

The following are extracts from Lisbon
Ohzettes to the 13th inst. inclusive :

LISBON, FEE. 9.

The official part of the Gazette contains a Royal
Alvara for the encouragement of learning, by which his
Majesty thinks fit to extend to the Royal Professors of
Rational and Moral Philosophy, of Elementary Mathe-
matics, and History, the exemptions and privileges en-
joyed by the Professors of the Greek and Latin Languages
and of Rhetoric.

Fins. 12.—Department of the Minister of Finance._
I, the King, make known to all those to whom this Alvara
shall come, that, taking into my Royal consideration that
the decree of the 15th of April, IS2I, by virtue of which
the revenues of all the estates of the Crown and commend-
anis which should henceforward become vacant, were to
be paid into the fifth coffer ( Quinta Cuixa) of the
Junta of the Royal Loans, which originated solely in the
disorganising principles which prevailed at the calamitous
period in which it was promulgated, tended on the
one hand to annihilate and extinguish all the houses
of the principal Nobility of these kingdoms, whose
ancestors, by signal and glorious deeds, deserved to
be rewarded by the Kings, my predecessors, with
grants of estates of this description; and, on the
other hand, tended to deprive the Crown of these king_
douse of the power of rewardin, distinguished services,
which must necessarily cause the most serious prejudice
to the good of the State ; and it being also my wish not
only to maintain unimpaired the public credit, which it is
my intention religiously to preserve, but also to promote
and to accelerate the extinction of the debt of the State,
to which the fifth branch of the revenue of the said Junta
is applied, by assigning ❑ew funds for the redemption of
the consolidated debt, fur which the laws hitherto pub-
lished make no provision ; for all these reasons I am
pleased to ordain :
Here follow the regulations; in seven articles, by which,

1. All the revenues of the estates of the Crown, or of
the Orders, assigned to the fifth branch of the said Junta,
shall continue to be paid to it..
2. For the gradual redemption of the consolidated debt
yet unprovided for, the new Junta shall henceforth receive
a portion of the revenues of the estates of the Crown, and
of the orders which shall become vacant, sufficient to
make up a sum of 500 contos of reis per annum.
3. To make up this sum, shall be applied the revenues
of the estates of the Crown, and orders which shall in
future become vacant, and in which no grants have been
made, or shall be made hereafter; and in case his Ma-
jesty should make such grants beyond those already given,
the persons on whom they are already bestowed shall pay
five per cent. of the annual revenue.
4. As it may Le hoped that the sum of 500 contos
will in this manner be soon complete, it is decreed, that
when the receipts arising from the above resources shall
exceed this sum, the remainder shall be employed in re-
ducing the paper currency.
5. The Junta to employ this surplus in purchasing
such kinds of paper currency as a fund assigned for their
redemption, and which may be purchased at the most
advantage.
6. A detailed report of the operations to be laid before
his Majesty.
7. The estates belonging to the Order of St. John of
Jerusalem, the revenues of which have been hitherto re-
ceived by the Junta, shall be restored to the Order, which
shall pay annually to the Junta 19 contos and 500 milrees.
By another decree his Majesty, for the relief of his sub-
jects civil and military, who receive from the Treasury
their means of subsistence, from the prejudice they suffer
by the discount of the paper currency, ordains that the
produce of the estates of the Crown, and of all others or-
dered by the decrees of 2d September and sth December,
1823, to be sold for the redemption of the public debt,
shall be paid half in bonds of the public debt, and half in
paper currency, which shall be publicly burnt by the Junta.
A third decree orders measures to be taken to ascertain,
within six months, the actual amount of the paper cur-
rency in circulation.

The pressure of Parliamentary Debates and
other matters, prevents our going at length into
the question of Parliamentary Reform—or rather
into the propriety of granting to such cities as
Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, the
right of returning Representatives to Par-
liament. But, indeed, argument upon such
a question is idle ; common sense is the
same all the world over, and we ask Mr. PEEL,
and time opponents to Lord Joux RussELL's

' motion, if it be reconcileable to common sense,
or to common decency, in a country where free re-
presentation is said to be the distinguished charac-
teristic of its people, that representatives shall be
denied to cities of great population, immense ca-
pital, unwearied industry, and enterprising spi-
rit, when such. paltry places as Gleam), we will
even say Westbury, and a nest of jobbing bo-
roughs, shall be allowed the privilege of
offending the common sense—if not the en-
durance—of a free people, by the mockery
of their representatives ? The thing is not only
indefensible but unjustifiable. But perhaps we
ought to rejoice that the claims of the great
places we have mentioned are again thrown back
into the scale of Parliamentary Reform, in order
to give it a preponderance and ominous weight
which even the Duke of WELLINGTON found
it expedient to recognise, in that often despised
but as often recoiling measure—Catholic Emeti-
cipation. We support Ministers, because we
believe they mean well, but whenever we find
their measures to fall short of their professions,
we shall candidly tell them so ; and, acting in
this spirit, we say that their rejection of the
Question of Parliamentary Reform is not po-
pular out of doors, however pleasant it
may be to those who profit by the
wages of corruption. Parliamentary Re-
form must be granted, and the sooner the bet-
ter. A virtuous Ministry can stand well with
the KING and the country without the aid of
corrupt majorities, and if it need these the sooner
it appeals to the gratitude of a free people the
better for all parties.

THE FUNDS.-(THIS DAY.)

CITY, TIVELVE 0' CL 0 CK.

Charleston Papers hive been received at the North
and South America❑ Coffee-house to the 22d January.
The Mobile Regirter of the Bth July states, by accounts
from New Orleans, that information was received there
from Tampico, that a number of hats, such as worn by
the American seamen, with the word Hornet on them,
were picked up the coast. This report is considered as
confirming the melancholy fate of the Hornet.
Accounts from Mexico state that the decree by which
the importation of certain goods was prohibited, after the
22d November had been suspended, and an order issued
extending the period to the 31st December.