The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

POSTPONEMENTS.

Lord L. GOWER postponed his motion on the Sub-
letting Act to the 97th April.
Mr. ROBINSON also postponed his motion, which
stood for this day, in consequence of the debate on the ge-
neral distress.

Mr. Secretary PEEL postponed his motion on the
subject of forgery on account of the importance of the ad-
journed debate. _

Mr. WHITMORE moved for a return of the quantity
of Hides and Skins, Spirits and Tobacco, and of the duties
charged upon each article, from sth January, 1828, to
the sth January, 1830.—Ordered.
Mr. W. PEEL brought up the Report of the Commis..
sion on the Ecclesiastical Courts.—Laid on the table.

Mr. E. DAVENPORT presented a petition from the
inhabitants of Shaftesbury, praying for an immediate in-
quiry into the state of public distress.—Laid on the table.
ADMIRALTY COURTS—IRELAND.

Lord F. L. GOWER said that he would bring forward
the case of Sir Jonah Barrington soon after Easter, with a
view to enable him to take what course he might think
proper. The charge against him was founded on the
18th Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry in Ireland.
He now gave notice that on the 29th April he would
move for a Committee of the whole House to inquire into
the charges made against him.
DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.—(ADJOURNED

DEBATE.)
Mr. FERGUSSON moved the Order of the Day for
resuming the adjourned debate on Mr. E. Davenport's
Motion on this subject.
The Order of the Day having been read—
Mr. FERGUSSON said, that after the statement of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a few evenings ago, he
thought that the House was bound to believe that the Mi-
nisters were really willing to do whatever was in their
power.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Member for Shaftes-
bury having moved for a Committee of the whole House,
he (Mr. Fergusson) should have felt some difficulty iu
complying with that motion, knowing that the time occu-
pied by such a proceeding would be highly disadvantageous
to the other affairs of the country. The amendment of
the Hon. Member for Shoreham (Sir C. Burrell), how-
ever, relieved him from the difficulty that he felt on that
head, and he should therefore vote for the appointment of
a Select Committee. The only question that ought to be
considered with reference to that Committee was, whether
a sufficient case of general distress bad been made out?
He thought that the fair way of looking at that was by
turning to the petitions that had been so numerously pre-
sented to that House, and to the almost universal county
meetings that bad taken place on the subject, rather than
to statements made on the strength of private, and, in
some instances, anonymous informations, such as had
been produced on the former evening by the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade. But even if those
private communications were correct, they only went
to show that there had till very lately been very
severe distress; and he did not see how, on the
strength of a few orders transmitted to Manchester
or Glasgow, it could be asserted that all that distress had
disappeared, especially when the House had lying on their
table petitions from the counties of Renfrew and Dumbar-
ton, complaining of the existence of distress. It might be
true that there was less distress in Scotland and Ireland
than in England ; but even if such were the case, he did
not see how it was to be contended that that ought to
preclude inquiry into the distress that existed in some
places; and which partook of this one remarkable fea-
ture, which had, perhaps, never been experienced before
—which was, that it was not the distress of this or that
particular class, but of all the productive classes of the
country. Though he agreed with the Hon. Member for
Shaftesbury in many points, he was bound to differ from
him in what he had urged with respect to the currency.
He considered that a great part of the distress took its
origin from the suppression of the small notes.—(Hear,
hear.)—Nor was this felt in England only ; it necessarily
reached Scotland, because the markets of that country in
a great measure depended on the markets in England ; and
it was only that very day that he had heard that at the

Dumfries market it was impossible to find purchasers for
cattle at any price. He thought that prosperity would
never be restored to this country till the injury that had
been done to it by the destruction of the country bank-
ing system had been remedied. In his opinion, no set of
men had ever been so ill treated as the country bankers.
So manyeauses had been assigned for the distress, that the
very different opinions entertained were to him a satisfac-
tory reason why there should be a Committee. It was
only by inquiries in such a Committee, that they could
ascertain the true cause. If all the papers referred to by
the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade the other
evening were correct—and he had some doubts on the
subject—they only showed that there could be no danger
from the inquiry.
Mr. W. \VHITMORE did not concur with those who
said the distress was caused by a change in the currency,
but other causes had contributed, and they were bound,
before again changing the currency, to inquire if such a
change would not cause greater mischief than allowing it
to remain unchanged. Two effects have resulted from a
change in the currency—the one physical, the mere change
is the price of gold, and the other moral. He believed
that when Mr. Peel's Bill was passed, the difference be-
tween the market price of gold and the Mint price was not
more than 3 per cent.—(Hear, hear)—and that, there-
fore, would not of itself have produced any important con-
sequences. But any man who knew this country must be •
aware, that in all our towns, and in every part of the coun-
try, great speculations had been entered into, and great un-
dertakings began by men who had not sufficient capital to
complete them. They borrowed of bankers. The little
depreciation in prices occasioned by the change in the cur-
rency, caused the property on which they had advanced
money scarcely to be sufficient to reply them ; they sus-
tained a loss and restricted their business ; they ceased to
make the same advances as before, and the industrious ma-
nufacturers not finding the same advances, there actually
was a contraction of the currency. A panic was the con-
sequence. Capitalists saw their property was falling; that
to lend was to lose—they would not lose, and that caused
a stagnation. Moreover, we had two bad harvests conse-
cutively, which contributed to augment the distress. He pI
believed, however, that this panic was not likely to be
permanent. Paper money could not increase the pro-
duction of the country; that was regulated by the ;
capital of the country, and would be carried to
the same extent with a metallic as with a paper currency.
Another cause of our temporary distress was, the gra-
dual fall in the price of all species of produce which had
taken place, independent of the change in the currency.
Since 1814, various new sources of supply had been opened
for cotton, coffee, and all colonial and tropical produce.
The countries beyond the Cape of Good Hope had since
then sent their productions to the market, and had dimi-
nished the price of the article. A vast supply had been I
obtained of coffee also. The trade to South America had .1
been followed by similar effects. Sugar had been sent to
Europe from many new places, and in vast quantities. Our
only supply of wool formerly came from Spain ; now we
obtained a large quantity from Germany. Since the peace
too, the capital before employed in war had been engaged in
production, and bad had the effect of augmenting supply
and lowering prices. But while a fall was taking place, it
was well known that there was no encouragement to extend
production. Stocks were not laid in more than was abso-
lutely necessary, because the holders might expect to lose
on them. No works were undertaken which could be
avoided ; but he believed that the fall from these causes
had now reached its limits. He hoped, indeed, not as the
President of the Board of Trade had stated, that prices
bad risen, and that manufactures were reviving, but that
a rise would speedily take place, and that manufactures
would speedily revive. He would also mention, that he be-
lieved the diminished supply of the precious metals from
South America had occasioned a fall of prices, and this
cause would probably continue to operate for some time.
Taking all these circumstances into his consideration, be
saw no reason to doubt that the country would soon get
through its present difficulties, and would again increase in
prosperity, population, and wealth. He found evidence
indeed that it was not at present declining. Not only were
the exports greater last year than before, but almost every
description of raw materials had been used to a greater
degree last year than in former years. In 1820 the quan-
tity of cotton consumed was 470,000 bags ; in 1829 it was
780,000 bags. The quantity of silk consumed in 1823 was
2,104,000:b5. ; in 1829 it was 4,547,00011 m. The amount
of our exports, the quantity of raw materials worked up,
and the number of ships employed, all showed that there
was a great deal of business going on, though he believed
it was, in general, carried on at a low rate of profit, and
sometimes at a loss ; for, whatever distress now existed,
he did not believe any remedy could be found in returning
to a depreciated currency. He approved of the Right
Hon. Gent.'s Bill of 1819 ; and had we not then regu-
lated the currency, be believed that instead of new suffer-
ing only temporary distress, the capital would have gone
out of the country, and would have sought employment
elsewhere, where it was not subject to a ruinous fiuctua-
tion. He would also state—as it was said that nobody
would defend such an opinion, though he would not then
enter into any argument on the subject—that he believed
we had done right in selecting gold for our standard in-
stead of silver. He would take that opportunity also of
declaring, that he could not agree with the Hon. Member
for Newark in any one of his propositions. That Hon.
Member would find employment for our agriculturists, by
making the people eat dear bread, and prohibiting the im-
portation of foreign corn. That Hon. Member would
find employment for our manufactures, by excluding them
from the foreign market ; and would crown all by a return
to a paper currency. In no one of these propositions
could he agree with the Hon. Member for Newark. If
the Legislature would give employment to the people, and
profit to capital, it must open the markets of the world to
us by extending the principles of free trade, and removing
as far as possible every restriction on enterprise. There
was an inquiry going on into a most important subject;
and if that should turn out as be desired, if free access
were to be allowed to the East Indies, as sound policy,
reason, and arguments, were they allowed their due weight,
recommended, more would be done to relieve the distress
of our manufactures than could be accomplished by any
other measure. He implored the Right Hon. Gent. op-
posite to look at the case with his own eyes, and judge of
it with his own understanding; and if he saw all the be-
nefits likely to result from the opening of the trade, he
would be sure to come to a conclusion that it ought to be
opened, and he would lay a permanent foundation for
prosperity in both countries.
Sir G. PHILLIPS, while he admitted that there was
partial distress, did not believe in the universality of that
distress among the manufacturing classes which had been
mentioned by the Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright. He
should state to the House what he knew of Lancashire,
with which he was best acquainted, and of the state of
which he had been at considerable pains to obtain correct
information. Gentlemen acquainted with the manufac-
turing districts must be aware that it was impossible to
obtain an average of the wages of labour in them, such as
might be obtained of the uniform labour of agriculturists.
He must, therefore, state the wages of different classes, and
he would begin with that most extensive class--the hand- '
loom weavers—who were some of the most distressed.
The wages of this class were, in Manchester—women,
from 4s. to. ss. a week ; and men, from 6s. to 7s. Of
late there had been a small rise, to the amount of 10d. far,
women, and I 2d. for men. At Manchester, be undera`
stood that at present the hand-loom weavers were gene.'
rally employed. At Blackburn, the wages of the same
class of persons was ss. per week. At Ashton-under-
Lyne, the wages of the hand-loom weavers, whe were
principally (we understood) employed on gingham, were
better, and amounted to 10s. per week. At Bolton, the
weavers earned from ss. to 6s. per week. The weavers
of fustian were also earning from ss. to 6s. a week.
These were the lowest prices that bad ever been paid in
the manufacturing districts, and it certainly was much to
be regretted that the distress of the masters hail ever
compelled them to pay their workmen at such a
rate. The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to state the
prices given for various kinds of labour in cotton factories,
but the noise in the House prevented us from taking the
various degrees. We understood him to say that females
in the factories could, from the age of 13 to 16, earn
about ss. 6d. a week as carders, and from the age of 18
to 20, about Bs. or from that to Be. 6d. to 9s. 6d. ; fe-
males working as cleaners earn from about 6s. to 7e.
These were the wages generally; but in Gloucester, and
other places, many of the masters paid a rate of wages
higher than the others. Men, as spinners there, received
21s. a week, although they had formerly 265. At Old-
ham, where there was a great population, females of 20
years earned, as spinners, about Bs. a week, while the men
got 30s. a week for fine work in some places, although the
average was about 255. a week in the district. There
could be no doubt that, although the workmen within doors
received these prices, those whose business required out of
door work suffered severely during the continuance of the
late frost. Bricklayers, carpenters, and boatmen, being
unable to find employment, were of course compelled to be
economical, and the result was distress in the small shop-
keepers ; for if the customers had no money, they could not
indulge in their usual luxuries. The lion. Baronet then
read, from a statement published by Mr. Taylor, au account
of the state of the workmen in several of the districts, front
which it appeared that the power-loom weavers are fully
employed at reasonable wages, while the comparatively low
price of the necessaries off life renders their situation one of

existeci;l
it Were g
the ceun

however
beset, it
the low I
opinion,
facturers
Plow, ho,
tion with.
one-fif
the foreit
sixty mil
markets
was little
the cause
tress were

chinery;
As to „c
to bin), c
of persor
abundant
might be
sorry to E
'tended (
trusted tl

kaebinet
trees, lall
ereue,
81
be other
rvaa cow.
arose, he
that had
dulged iv
never dri
that exp
under vsl

market.
causes
Cornish
subject

e who

rency,

ound,
inch a

since
dimi-
been
bad
.mt to

lenee
were

every
eater
Luau-
t was

could
them
!turn
tions

, and
Id to
wing
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jest;
,ccess

Of
. for.
lder-
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were
were

from
fully
• low
Ile of

more than ordinary comfort. The hand-loom weavers Were,
on the'centrary, suffering great:distress, labouring every
day at lower and lower prices, until they had reached a
price which was inadequ tie to provide them'with either
food or clothing. Their children, who got employment in
the factories, were receiving tolerable wages; but the
hand-loom wearers never had been in a state of so much
deprivation, and there was no hope of any improvement.
It had been contended by an Hon. Member near him
--an Alderman of the City of London (Waithman)—that
trade was in the manufacturing districts at the very lowest
ebb, and constantly carried on for several years at a great
loss---that the merchant had ceased to export, and the
manufacturer manufactured in vain, and without the
slightest demand. He was quite ready to admit that the
merchant had ceased to export at his own risk, and that
the manufacturer exported his own 'goods. This seemed
to reverse the order of trade, and seemed to be at variance
with improvement ; but he contended that this doing away
with the middleman, as it were, was a great gain to the
manufacturer, and attended with one obvious advantage to
the consumer, namely, that it placed one profit the less on
the price of the goods. But besides that, it was a dimi-
nution of risk to the manufacturers. In ordinary times
the manufacturer gave the merchant who ordered goods
from him for exportation a credit of eighteen months, and
thought himself lucky if he got paid in two years. Now,
however, the manufacturer manufactures factures goods for expor-
tation at his own risk ; and it was one of the best advan - tages of the increased facility of communication, that the
Birmingham or Manchester
man was enabled to send his
goods abroad without the expence and the risk of the inter-
vention of the merchant or middleman. Besides all that,
however, the Alderman should understand that the manu-
facturer who, is thus become his own merchant, does not
manufacture himself the 20th part of that which lie ex-
ports. lie buys the linen cloths and the cotton yarn from
others
general trade. The Hon. Alderman contended, he recol-
lected, that this trade was carried on at a loss. He
(Sir G. Phillips) denied that. It was carried on
at a
advantages, and great advantages, else why had it
been crried on for so man at all ? It was absurd
y y
to suppose it would
be continued if loss was the certain
consequence. Another doctrine of the Hon. Alderman's
was, that the manufacturers did not look much to the
price of the raw material, and that it was of little con-
sequence whether cotton was a sixpence dearer or a six-
pence cheaper. Why, nothing could be more erroneous.
11 A manufacturer calculated the one-eighth of a penny in
the pound, and if he could buy at that one-eighth of a
penny cheaper he did so. It was by attending to advan-
tages of that kind that so many large fortunes had been
realized in the course of the last few years. As to the
complaints of the worthy Alderman and others about
machinery, all he could say was, that they were not new ;
that they bad had machinery for the last 30 years; and
that the distress was not greater now than during those
_
periods when machinery formed no part of their
corn
that
Plaints. Upon the whole, he was of opinion,yet
although the profits of trade were undoubtedly small,
, y
''t there were profits in every branch of industry ; and
although capital might not be increasing very fast,
or
so fast as some supposed, yet it undoubtedly was in-
Creasing, He thought, however, with the Honourable
Member for Bridgenorth (Mr• Whitmore), that the
country was placed in circumstances which required the
Most watchful circumspection on the part of the Govern-
ment. He rejoiced that they had determined to lighten
the public burthens--he thanked them for what they had
done; and while he praised the liberality they had dis-
i played in their domestic policy, he regretted that it had
' j not been extended to their foreign negotiations. The plan
of lightening taxation on some points, in order to increase
the consumption in others, was highly praiseworthy; and
he hoped that the doctrines of the Right Hon. Gent, the
Master of the Mint (Herries), as laid down the other day,
would he followed by the Government. He hoped, too,
that some alteration would be made in the system of mono-
polies, and particularly in that of corn ; but, in common
with every person connected with the county of Lancaster,
he implored them not to make any alteration in the cur-
rency. They had now the best currency in the world,
and they wished to keep it, as they were satisfied that any
attempt to tamper with it, or oven to introduce silver as a
standard as well as gold, would only enable foreigners to
defraud us. It was said there was a scarcity of money in
the manufacturing districts. He knew as much of them
as any one, and he never recollected money more plentiful
in his neighbourhood, which was one of the extensively
manufacturing. No man who had property could say he
Was not able to obtain money. There was ne scarcity of
' currency with them when means justified credit. The
Hon, Baronet concluded by observing that as he did not
think any relief could be afforded to the really distressed by
the enquiries proposed in the motion of the Hon. Mover
(Mr. Davenport), or in the amendment proposed by the
lion. Bart. (Sir C. Burrell), and as he thought, on the
r contrary, that an acquiescence in either of the motions
F Would leash to delusive hopes which never could be realised
to expectations of improvements which Parliament had
not the power to execute, he should feel it to be his duty
i to vote against both motion and amendment.—(Hear.)
i Mr. ESTCOURT, jun., said that the subject was too
delicate for a Member so young as be was to presume to
pronounce au opinion on it, but he might say that the pre-
sent state of the country excited in him feelings of pain
and deep concern, and that he could not look on the future
without the most frightful forebodings. He thought that in
a Committee the question of the public distress was likely to
receive a better consideration than it could do in the House.
Sir H. VIVIAN did not deny that considerable distress
existed; but was persuaded that many of the statements of
it were greatly exaggerated. He entertained no despair of
the ceuntry ; but, on the contrary, felt convinced, that
however serious the difficulties might be with which it was
beset, it would rise superior to them all. With respect to
the low prices, some of the causes of them were, in his
opinion, sufficiently obvious. During the war, our manu•
facturers and merchants had a monopoly of the markets.
Plow, however, they were obliged to enter into a competi-
tion with the foreign manufacturers and markets. Now,
as one-fifth of our industry was employed in the supply of
the foreign markets, our experts being between fifty and
sixty millions, and as the prices we obtained in the foreign
markets must govern our prices at home, he thought there
j was little difficulty in accounting fur the low prices. Among
the causes assigned by various persons for the existing dis-
tress were over production, superabundant population, ma-
chinery, free trade, taxation, and the state of the currency.
As to orerepreduction, the only consequence, as it appeared
to him, of our producing less would be to throw a number
of persons out of employment. With respect to super-
abundant population, to a certain extent the population
might be said to be superabundant. But he should be very
sorry to see the population diminished by the means recom-
mended on a recent occasion by an Hon. Gent., and he
trusted that the House would never forget--
" That a bold peasantry, their country's pride,
When once destroyed, could never be supplied:"
Machinery,
in his opinion, so far from producing the dis-
tress,ae most have greatly contributed to prevent its in-
, since it gave employment to millions, who would
be otherwise destitute:aaosecohnsidered among
of it. A great portion of what
the middle classes to be distress
that hadot Was
persuaded, out of the extraordinary change
dulged iaaken place in th h. bits of the people, who in-
never dreamt ; and
an extravagant expence of which their forefathers
that expence, felt the
Who brig now compellTedbetnoeceurtail
under which they were of disecnhar".mgrelay.number of necessity
servants, had also added to the generalg'n difficulty. Ile had
d s accurate to
as he could into the real fa
of the case, and
that of mer.e especially with respect .
to the pa-
rish,'sled. The Hon, Lynn, la Hampshire, in which he himself
resided. • lion. Gentleman here read a statement, by
it aPPeared, that although from 1813 to 1829, the
poor's-rate had increased from 2,7001. to 3,200/, the po-
pulationn
!rom i of the parish from 1811 to 1829 had increased
as 30,t00 to
~
pan at all surprising-
5,000. Under this latter circumstance, it
0
county of the q that there should be an increase
mini pers. The Hon. Gentleman then entered into a
uantity of tin and copper raised in the
Y of Cornwall in 1813, 1814 and 1815, es com-
pared with the quantity raised in the last years ; and main-
tained that
awt
• : !
aatlitebiencrease, combined with the foreign com-
petition
far, however cause of the present low prices. He was
, from thinking low prices an evil. If it
tsvbeeren,7coetasfaor the low prices of hemp of tallow, and of all
be thrown
vieloourt lif_ei, tette of thousands of people would
and thousands of
tons of shipping I"' employment,
vould be laid up. As to free trade,
he was convin .
distress ; and he wa la
.led that it had nothing to do with the
presence of the ili `', lappy to make that avowal in the
when the principle" lion. Member for Liverpool, as
he had expressed a;nefe freeai)p tradet e l,
e li
,sai Were originallyNvith
re respect
edei discussed,
stelcile,
result of their a
try. In him .
)ifipllcatiott to the commerce of the coun-
briefly this : that as
the great principle of free trade was
the country prridu
.sdinng as any of the manufacturers of
an entire demand je,e, i a commodity for which there was
them by dutiea ; be:tii': home market we might protect
a foreign market to sellal When
they
be regulated by the price lsir
were obliged to go to
commodity, the price Inuit
turers were able to bri . at. which the foreign menthe-
‘ market. This, as he Iriagd the seine commodity into the
' causes of the diruillislied before observed, was one of the
price of the produce of the
B
Cornish mines, ut still, unl
subject was very incorrect ess his information on the
there
e was no distress in the

county of Cornwall, notwithstanding the low prices. In
the meantime those low prices had been very beneficial in
other respects. What would our shipping—what would
Birmingham and other manufacturing towns have done
had the price of copper remained high? It was clear
that to the low prices thousands of persons were in-
debted for their present employment. But it was asked
how could we go on with such low prices, and with such
heavy taxes on agriculture ? lie did not believe that
those taxes bore especially on agriculture. He believed
that they bore generally on the consumer ; that
they bore on the whole property of England.
He considered available property to be property
which a man possessed beyond taxation. If he
had 1,0001. a year, and paid 5001. in taxation, he
should consider that he had 5001. of available property.
If that 5001. at the present prices would purchase as much
as 1,0001. when the prices were high, be should have no
right to complain. He would advert shortly to the remedies
which had been suggested for the existing state of things.
In the first place, there was what had been called equitable
adjustment. He had heard with the utmost astonishment
what had fallen upon that subject from the lion. Member
for Colchester. That Hon. Member ought to recollect
that what was law was not always justice, and that what
was equity was not always equitable. It would be the
extreme of injustice to make any attempt at reducing the
property of the fun.;holder, and he trusted that no such
attempt would ever be made. Of this too he was persuaded,
that if a sponge could be applied to the national debt to-
morrow, the country would derive little or no benefit from
the operation. The visits of the tax-gatherer would be ex-
changed for those of the parish overseer; and the popu-
lation of our exchanges and markets would be transferred
to our workhouses. The reduction of taxation was one
of the remedies which had been insisted on. It was un-
doubtedly the duty of Ministers to reduce taxation as
much as was consistent with the public service; and they
had done that duty. But he was not one of those who
fancied that any extraordinary relief could be derived from
such a source ; and he was one of those who would be
very sorry to see the principle of reduction carried to such
an extent as would compel us to disband our army, dis-
mantle our navy, and close our arsenals and dock yards.
lie trusted, to use the eloquent words of a late Right Hon.
Gent., " that the Sovereign of this country would never
be reduced to sit on a degraded throne." A change in
the currency was another of the nostrums recommended ;
nostrums so numerous, that they reminded him of some
doggrel lines, with which he was familar when at school
One doctor physic'd him and purg'd ;
A second bleeding strongly urg'd ;
A third a tonic mixture tried ;
Among them all—the patient died."
Ho bad frequently heard of people being music-mad ; but
he believed that some Hon. Gentlemen were currency.
mad. His view of the currency question was this—that
if, as had been asserted, the substitution of gold for paper
had produced a change of five and twenty per cent, in the
price of commodities, that proved that the former price
was artificial. It was impossible to maintain a paper cir-
culation while we kept up a commercial intercourse with
foreign countries. We could not buy bread at home with
paper, and cotton abroad with gold. If we were to re-
turn to paper to-morrow, we should speedily have two
prices, a gold price and a paper price, as we had for-
merly ; even although the House should again adopt a
resolution declaring that gold and notes were equivalent.
He was delighted, therefore, to hear his Majesty's Mini-
sters declare that they had no intention of proposing any
change in the currency. He apologised to the House for
having trespassed so long upon their attention, and
thanked them for their indulgence. What he had said
was not said in a spirit of hostility to any interest. Agri-
culture and manufactures must flourish together. Although
his particular interest did not lie in that way, yet cer-
tainly, if be were called upon to give a preponderance to
either, he would throw his weight into the agricultural
scale. But not conceiving that to be necessary, and
being persuaded that no measure could be adopted, the
tendency of which would be materially beneficial to any
interest, he must oppose the motion.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LIDDELL declared himself prepared to support
the motion of the Hon. Member near him, though he
trusted that in doing so, he incurred no risk of being un-
derstood to pronounce any opinion condemnatory of the
motives of his Majesty's Government. He was willing to
gire every credit to the Right lion. Gentlemen on the
other side of the House for the uprightness of their inten-
tions, and for the earnest zeal with which they endeavoured
to promote the interests of the country, as it appeared to
them ; but he must be allowed to say, that his views of the
true interests of the country, and what its necessities at
the present moment demanded, were quite opposed to the
course which the Ministers of the Crown appeared deter-
mined to persevere in adopting. There was one proposi-
tion on which he would mainly rely, and which he did not
apprehend that any lion. Member would attempt to con-
trovert—namely, that at the present moment there was not
profitable employment for the capital of the country._
Notwithstanding the low rate of interest at which money
could be borrowed, there were not to be found traders in
the United Kingdom who could see any profitable means
of embarking it in any speculation whatever : that, he be
lieved, was true of nearly every branch of commerce and
manufactures. Was that, then, a state of things in which
the Government and Legislature of the country were to
allow things to take their course—were they to say to the
people that they must wait for the operation of natural
causes, and not look to any amelioration of system for that
relief of which they now stood so deeply and alarmingly in
need? Amidst the various departments in which dis-
tress prevailed, if there was one which stood peculiarly
forward it was the shipping interest. He had within
a short time received a communication, in which it was
stated that the spring freights opened at rates one-
ninth lower than the former year; and in every point of
view, however much they might have suffered last year,
the present was infinitely worse than any preceding season.
Those were facts, and facts well authenticated—facts
which he believed would receive no contradiction ; it was
therefore that he stated them, and confined himself to
them, for he might easily procure a variety of other state-
ments, if possible more strong, respecting otLer depart-
ments of trade and manufactures ; but he had no wish to
exaggerate the distresses of the country. They were alarm-
ing and severe enough, without adding to the pressure of
them by overcharged descriptions. One of his grounds of
complaint against Right lion. Gentlemen opposite was the
manner in which they met the present motion. They ap-
plied themselves in the course of the debate to any tiling
rather than what formed the question at issue. Thus, on
the first night of the present debate, the Right Honourable
Gentleman (the President of the Board of Trade) advanced
with much form to the discussion of the motion, and when
he came to the most important branch of it he suddenly
started off and declined entering upon it. He confessed
that never on any similar occasion did he experience a
greater disappointment than when the Right Hon. Gentle-
man declined to enter upon the considerations connected
with the state of the currency and the mode in which it
affected the present distresses. He declared himself unable
to comprehend how any Member of that House could pro-
fess to inquire into the distresses of the country, and pass
by altogether a matter so intimately connected with them
as the state of the currency—a matter which many held
to be amongst the chief causes of that distress. For his
part he must say, that nothing was better worthy the at-
tention of Parliament--nothing which at the present mo-
ment could better occupy their attention, than to consider
whether, without debasing the currency, it might not be
so far replenished by a judicious issue of paper as would
give a salutary stimulus to manufactures, and revive tne
suffering commerce of the country. He thought that a Com-
mittee might be very usefully employed in investigating the
best mode of carrying so desirable an object into practical
effect. The Committee might also advantageously direct
their labours to the subject of an improved system of
banking, more calculated for the necessities of a commercial
community than that which at present existed in this
country. He had not the slightest hesitation in expressing
his opinion that the standard ought to be changed ; and
to this he would add, that he felt no doubt whatever that if
the well-known measure which bore the name of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, and would continue to be known as his,
were again to be proposed to Parliament, its authors would
shrink from pressing it upon the acceptance of the Le-
gislature, and sure he was, that if they were to go the
length of doing so, Parliament foreseeing all the evils that
have since arisen from that measure, would reject it in a
manner the most marked and decided. He was satisfied,
that were the same Bill to be proposed over again, the con-
sent of Parliament could never he obtained to any thing so
unjust and oppressive to the country. However the deed
had been done, and it was no the duty of all—when no
perfect remedy was practicable—to do what the circum-
stances of the case admitted ; it was the duty of every man
in the country to do the utmost he possibly could for the
relief of the country; and it was the duty of every Member
of that House to apply himself sedulously and seriously to
the discovery of what might be done towards meeting the
present emergency. He went Ito ther, and would say that
they ought to co-operate with his Majesty's Government
in everything that they undertook for the public good; for
the existing Administration was, generally speaking, well
deserving the confidence of Parliament and of the country.
There was no set of gentlemen, on either side of the House,
whom he should more desire to see in the Councils of his
Majesty. He believed that a change of men could work
Ino beneficial results—that none could be found to assume
the reins of Government with better prospects of success

than the Right Iron. Gentlemen opposite, though he must
qualify this testimony in their favour by repeating his ob-
jection to the course they hail thought proper to take in
reference to the present motion. So much he felt boumi
to say in vindication of himself, and in justice to the country
and the Administration.
Mr. COURTENAY would state shortly his views to
the House upon this most important occasion, in com-
mencing to do which, he could not help saying that those
who were loudest in their expressions of sympathy with
the sufferings of the people, were the slowest to bring
forward any measures of relief, or to pledge themselves to
any definite proposition for the benefit of the country. It
had been made matter of repeated accusation against the
Government, that at different times they had attributed
the public distress to variou3 and contradictory causes.
First, they were accused—rather they should say not
the present Government, but several successive Govern..
ments were accused—of attributing the distress, some
years, to a transition from a state of war to a state of
peace. Now he believed that, at this distance of time,
there was no one who looked at the condition of the
country at that period, could doubt that the distress then
prevailing was to be ascribed to that cause. At that
period, the mere disbanding of the Army and Navy was
in itself a considerable source of public inconvenience,
and one of the most active causes of public distress ; and
he believed, that if the other causes to which, in truth and
in justice, his Majesty's Government felt bound to impute
the distress, were fairly examined, they would prove not
less to have produced the effects ascribed to them.
In his opinion, the mistakes most frequently made
consisted in supposing that any practical measure to be
introduced by the Government could remove at once
an extended evil, and one, the causes of which were,
in many instances, beyond the reach of legislation.
In the case of the public distress which took place at
the beginning of the present peace, it was to be observed,
that not only was there the transition with all its at-
tendant evils, but those to whom the administration of
public affairs was then entrusted had the additional diffi-
culty to encounter of a totally altered state of things in all
the relations of the country—agricultural, manufacturing,
and commercial. Over-production was the next cause to
which the public embarrassment was attributed. Of the
reality of that cause—of its wide and powerful operations,
he believed there would now be as little doubt as of any
proposition which could possibly be announced. Not alone
in England, but all over the world, did over-production
prevail. Then with peace came the loss of much that we
possessed during the war—many sources of commercial
wealth we possessed through and by the war ended with
it—many advantages incompatible with a state of peace
were lost likewise; added to these were the effects of
over-production, klt in common with the rest of the world.
All those causes, though different, were real and effectual
in their operations, and with them was combined the com-
petition, which reduced prices to a level before unknown,
and produced an amount of public distress which every one
who aimed at popularity ascribed to all imaginable causes.
The Bank Restriction Act, he certainly was ready to
admit, was not without its share in producing much of the
public embarrassment which at different times had arisen;
that measure gave a fatal facility to improvident specula-
tion, and produced great injustice to many portions of the
community. That restriction having been at length re-
moved, and it not having been proposed by the Hon. Mem-
ber who spoke last to repeal the Bill of his Right Hon.
Friend, it would be unnecessary for him to enter upon that
topic. He heard no distinct proposition for the restraint of
cash payments, and therefore he felt the less culled on to
enter upon that subject. He could not, however, pass to
any new topic without observing that the suffering of the
several crises to which lie adverted was aggravated by un-
favourable seasons. In every instance, however, the effects
produced by the weather were laid upon the Ministers, and
they were held responsible for the dispensations of Provi-
dence. The Hon. Member for Newark said of the Minis-
ters, that they sometimes complained of the seasons, some-
times as being too wet, and sometimes too dry, as though
such a complaint was self-contradictory. Now to his
mind it appeared the best founded and consistent mode of
accounting for distress that could easily be imagined.
Might not the Hon. Gent. himself on some occasions find
his roast beef under-done, and at other times over-done,
without seeing much cause to blame his cook.—( Hear, hear,
and a laugh. ).._Again, another class of Hon. Members,
who professed to represent the discontents of the country,
that the public establishments ought to be reduced, and
taxes repealed ; he thought the time had at length
arrived when a cry of that kind ought to cease.
Since the termination of the war forty per cent. of
the taxes had been repealed, and the public establish-
ments proportionally reduced. But with objections of
that class it was unnecessary any longer to contend. The
real object of those who opposed themselves to the views
of his Majesty's Government upon a question of that
nature was, to procure a return to the small note system.
Now he would inquire in what way (lid they suppose that
the small note system would restore the prosperity of the
country; was there a want of circulating medium in the
United Kingdom ?—(Hear, hear.)—lf so, he wished they
would supply Parliament with some more satisfactory evi-
dence of that fact than had yet been adduced. Did they
mean to say, that the whole gold and paper circulation,
taken together as it at present stood, was insufficient for
the occasions of the country, and less than in its present
state it required.—(Hear, hear, frosts Members on the Op-
position side.)—lf such was their view, he begged to be ex-
cused on that occasion from entering into any detailed re-
ply to them. He would not then go into the statements
and calculations necessary for rebutting an opinion so ill-
founded ; for lie thought that in doing so he should be but
abusing the patience of the House, and wasting its time, in
insisting upon truths already acknowledged by the great
majority both of the legislature and of the snore intelligent
portion of the community. But this much, however, he
would say, that if a return to the small note system, by
increasing the circulating medium, produced the required
remedy, he would gladly learn what there was to prevent
that remedy being made to produce all its beneficial effects
by the increase to the circulating medium being made in
addition to the present gold and paper circulation. That,
he believed, was not the sort of remedy which lion.
Gentlemen opposite required—they wanted the small
notes, because the country banker was more ready to lend
one-pound notes than sovereigns or five-pound notes ; for
they knew that if the one-pound note once got into circu-
lation, it would not speedily come back. It was his ear-
nest wish that they should not again return to the small
note system ; for he was satisfied that if the one-pound
notes once got out, they would drive all the gold out of
circulation. He confessed that he had no desire to see
the disposition of the country banker to lend his money
increased by any legislative enactment. At the present
moment, he believed there was little difficulty in any man
who had good security in obtaining advances of cash from
bankers possessed of sufficient capital for that purpose.
He was far from denying that a return to the one-pound
notes might produce for the moment a change in the aspect
of commercial affairs apparently beneficial. The return
to the one-pound notes might give a temporary stimulus
to agriculture ; but that would soon be followed by a
corresponding exhaustion. He was aware of the answer
that might possibly be given to all that. Why, it might
be asked, not establish a more secure system of banking
than had yet been seen to exist? To his mind, increased
security would bring with it but increased motive and
means for driving the gold out of the country. To in-
crease the security of the country bankers would be afford-
ing a certainty that the one-pound notes would wiser-
sede the gold. The times would necessarily come
when the demand for gold would increase, and when,
without any public distrust of the hankers, their notes
would flow in upon them snore rapidly than they
could have the means of meeting. He need not then
point out that runs and bankruptcy must be the con-
sequence. As to the course of argument which the Hon.
Member for Newark had thought proper to take up, lie
hoped he might be allowed to say that it was most un-
usual, and utterly unsupported by facts. He must be
allowed to tell that lion. 'Member, that if he continued to
censure the Government fur laws to which they were not
more parties than others—and he might add, to which
they were not score parties than a very large proportion of
those whom be was then addressing—he would denounce
that Hon. Member to his country as a betrayer of his
trust. It was that Hon. Member who manifested the
apathy of which he was forward to accuse others. There
was no part of the present distress, or of any of the for-
mer difficulties with which the country had to contend,
which could be attributed to causes over which any Go-
vernment could exercise controul. Great stress was laid
upon the remission of taxation. Taxes had been remitted.
Distress was talked of, when unfavourable seasons were
the cause. If the Hon. Member for Newark did not come
forward with some specific measure, upon which his cha-
racter and reputation might stand pledged, lie (Mr. C.)
would denounce him as a wordy man, without meaning
or substance.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh. )—He Mr. C.)
was a plain matter of fact man—(A laugh)—and spoke
his mind without equivocation or reserve, ever ready to ac-
knowledge genuine desert. Notwithstanding all that the
Hon. Member for Newark had said upon the subject of
free trade, both in the former night of the present discus-
sion and on other occasions, he (Mr. C.) had not the
slightest hesitation that free trade, as an experiment, had
fully succeeded ; lie was no theorist—he was a plain, prac-
tical roan ; but there was no man of candour, and of the
most moderate information, who could doubt that all classes

of society, and all departments of trade, were benefitted by
the alterations made in our foreign commerce. He had
not been in office for two seasons, and he could assure the
House that he entered upon his present situation with the
most earnest desire to do all he could to advance the public
service and promote the interests of the country in the most
effectual and permanent manner. He came to his present
place as free from prejudice and pre-conceived opinion as
any man could po.sibly be—exactly in the situation so justly
described by that unfortunate exr.ression of which he feared
he should never hear the last.—lle must declare, as an
honest and candid man, that the result of the free trade ex-
periment had been most beneficial, and not to say so
would be the height of injustice to the Hon. Member for
Liverpool. There was nothing that could more illustrate
the benefits of the system of free trade, so far as it had
been carried into effect, than the state of the prices of all
articles of consumption at the present moment. The Hon.
Member for Newark had told them that he was a friend of
free trade; it was possible—men had different modes of
showing their love for any thing, and that Hon. Member
had certainly adopted a strange course with a view to show
his approbation of the free trade system; for he had told
them that if we were to admit the produce of other nations,
we ought to he allowed to send them ours in return. He
(Mr. Conrtenay) was almost ashamed to argue the question
at this moment ; for the answer to that observation was so
perfectly obvious. Surely no one would pretend that fo-
foreigners gave us their produce—if not, then we must
pay for it; but how was the payment to be made? It
was said that we gave them money; be denied it; but
even if we did, how was that money obtained ? how
could it be procured, except for our goods, with which,
in fact, we paid for the produce of other nations
(Hear, hear.)—lf the Committee should be granted, and
that Hon. Member would go before the Committee to give
evidence on the subject, he would turn over the Hon.
Member to the Member for Dover, who was a practical
man, and who would cross-examine him on the subject;
and if the Hon. Member for Newark would agree to put
his answers in six lines each, without either epigram or
metaphor, and would undertake to shew that we could get
the products of foreign countries without paying for them
m goods or in money, and if in money, that we could pro-
cure the money without goods, he would give up the ques-
tion at once.--(Hoar, bear.)—He could not but think
' that it would be rain to go into aCommittee; for no other
question hut that could be submitted to their consideration,
and on that both the Government and the House stood
pledged. lie would only add, that he should oppose the
motion.

Sir R. R. VYVYAN believed that the nation was in
a very bad state, and that the financial difficulties of the
country were such, that unless something could be done to '
relieve us from their pressure, it was not improbable that
that House might not meet three Sessions more without
having witnessed some extraordinary changes. He had
been much surprised at a declaration made in the course of
this evening's discussion, that the distress had been much
exaggerated, and that it was not so general as it had been
represented. He would not go into any detail of the exist-
ing distress ; but would merely observe, that he had expe-
rienced great satisfaction on hearing, in the course of last
Monday evening, the Chancellor of the Exchequer admit
that the distress was great, and that it pressed very heavily
upon the people, and in consequence of it he came down to
the House with a proposal to reduce three millions of taxes.
After such an admission and such a proposal, the Right
Hon. Gentleman near him ought to have considered how
far it was advisable or politic to deny, as he had done to-
night, the existence of great or general distress. He (Sir R.
Vyvyan) was aware that he spoke in that House under
considerable disadvantages. He knew that he was address.
ing an assembly which thought him an Ultra, although,
on the only measure in which those who were really
Ultras discovered themselves, he and the party with whom
he had the honour to act, had not shown themselves to
deserve that appellation. But there were Ultras in Eng-
land—aye, and within that Housc—Ultras that might
be Tories, but that were not Tories, who supported the
Government. The question now was, what was the in-
ternal state of the country—did distress exist or not ; and
if it did, was the agricultural or was the manufacturing
interest most affected by it. They had been told that the
agricultural interest suffered most—hut none seemed to
agree upon the question of what were the causes of this
most extensive distress. Some said it was a surplus po-
pulation—some the system of the poor laws—hut almost
all admitted that great and general distress existed, and
that there was some wide-spreading disease in the body
politic. He would refer to the first of thesee alleged causes.
With regard to the evil of a surplus population, he was
one of those who believed that there was no such thing as
a surplus population. The effects attributed to a surplus
population might exist where the supposed cause of these
effects was, in reality, unknown. Under the present sys-
tem of poor laws, with the practice of having large farms,
and considering the way in which the wages of the labo-
rious part of the community were reduced, there might be
a surplus—or, -sat least, the country might have arrived at
a state in which, with one-half of her present population,
it would be said that there was-a surplus population. He
was surprised that any gentleman could have alluded in the
manner the Right Hon. Gentleman had done to the opinions '
of the Hon. Member for Newark, whose work in favour
of free trade ought to have protected him from such
observation, as it was well known to all men as highly
favourable to the principles of free trade. He must ex-
press his surprise with regard to the free trade question
and the exportation system having been introduced by his
Majesty's Ministers as the only proof of the returning
prosperity of the country. The Right Hon. Gent. who
had adverted to that subject this evening, had done so in a
most positive manner. His mind of blank paper had now
the broad principles of free trade fairly written upon it; •
and amongst these principles, that first axiom of the sup-
porters of that system—that we should find our market
where we could find it cheapest. If that axiom was only
followed up as it ought, the Corn Laws should at once be
attacked.—(Hear, hear.)—Yet he did not think that the
Right Hon. Gent. would be likely to recommend such a
measure, or the House very likely to attend to his recom-
mendation, if be should be disposed to make it. He would
now return to tie question, as to what was the cause of the
present distress. He was not one of those who was ac-
customed to complain of the improvements in science ;
but he found that the Prime Minister had, in another
place, declared that the immense and rapid growth of
machinery had been among the causes of the present
distress. He thought there was much truth in that declara-
tion; machinery had been rapidly improved, and its
sphere of operation most widely extended ; and he be-
lieved that it would be productive of immense advan-
tages in future times, but that the present generation
must suffer from it as from an evil. He thought, there.
fore, that it was not alone to the state of the currency,
nor to the introduction of the system of free trade, but
to these and a variety of other causes—to a course of cir-
cumstances, indeed, to which no sovereign was powerful
enough nor any philosopher wise enough to be able to
afford a present remedy. These causes had, indeed, been
urged into increased effect by the actions of Ministers. In
1821 it was said that it was utterly impossible to force the
markets of the world, or to produce more in this country
than could be consumed in the new States of South Ame-
rica, which were fast rising into political and commercial
importance. That doctrine was most fully acted upon in
this country in 1825, and the consequences were well
known. In his opinion the Government of that day had,
in a great measure, instigated that immense trailing ; and
they did not, as they ought to have done, express their
decided opinions that the course which English merchants
and manufacturers were then pursuing was one that must
end unsatisfactorily. For himself he would neither follow
party nor prejudice—he would look at this, as at other
questions, fairly; and no mere party feeling should induce
him to say that the Government was unworthy of confi-
dence. Still, however, he could not overlook those in •
statuses in which he thought that they acted with great in-
discretion. The nation was in great distress. Was it
enough to say that it must not be inquired into because
the Noble Duke at the head of the Government had done
what he could to pacify the country ? The people asked
for bread—hut then the Right Hon. Gent. made a great
sacrifice last Session, and it would be improper to desert
him now. If they said that, what notion could they have
of the independence of Members? Could Members turn,
and turn, and turn again, with every turn of the Adminis-
tration? He was sorry he could not express his confidence
in his Majesty's Government ; but if any change of Admi-
nistration should take place, and the new Ministry should
adopt measures agreeable to his ideas oh what was for the
benefit of the country, he should be most willing to join
—(Hear, hear, and a laugh. )—His friends and himself
hadl abandoned no principle, but he could not say the same
of some of those gentlemen who now formed part of the
Administration. There were some gentlemen who in
182 d refused to form part of an Administration, because
the Right Hon. Gent. then at its head was stated to have
in view a certain measure to attain an object to which they
objected. In that refusal they were supported by the ap-
probation of many Members of that House. But now
both these parties Caine forward and claimed great merit
--the one for having introduced, the other for having
aided, in passing that very treasure. It was from seeing
the constant attacks made by these parties upon those with
whom he had the honour to act—attacks made in the pub-
lic prints as well as in that House—and from the way in
which the Right Hon. Gent. addressed those with whom
lie had formerly been united, attacking them, and praising

those from whom he had formerly differed, but to whose
plans he was now a convert, that had induced him to
speak so strongly. If in doing so he had said anything
unparliamentary, he was sorry for it ; but he had felt
strongly', and he could not avoid giving expression to his
feelings. He would now make a few okservations with
regard to the currency question. It was not pretended
ilsitaandard establisheddepreciated
nt
the
couldt t hptassye
theirw'ho debts
b ea rerdo:ry etdh
the
Bill of 1826 ; but it was said that every pound note had
been replaced by a sovereign. He might be misinformed,
hut he had made inquiries into that subject, and the banters
of the West of England had given him a very different
account. It was now said that the landed interest must
make sacrifices. He did not know why, and they had
not received any information on that question. There
was a reason given for the distress that happened in 1816,
or that which took place in 1819, and there was an evident
reason for the panic of 1825 ; but no reason whatever was
given for the distress that now weighed down the produc-
tive classses of the country. What a farce, then, was it
to sit there and refuse a Committee to inquire precisely,
because no individual could state the cause of the distress.
Why, what was the object of a Committee, but to find
out that which no individual could of himself explain ? A
Committee would see what was feasible in such a case, and
far that reason he should support the amendment for a
Select Committee. They must take care that the capital
of the country was not destroyed. The land, the labours,
the products of the country, were its wealth—the credit of
the country might be destroyed, but the wealth would re-
main the same. The measures adopted within these few
years had ninth diminished, and had gone near to destroy
credit. The Legislature would now allow of credit under
100/, hut there had been a time when credit was given
on so low a sum as 20/. lie believed that one of the great
causes of existing distress was, not that there were more or
or less sovereigns in the country, but that the Bill of 1826
hid annihilated a great portion of the representative pro-
perty of the country. The Government admitted that there
ought to be a representative property of 151. and 10/. notes;;
but they insisted that the circulating medium should
have a metallic basis. And so it might have with a less
strict limitation of paper currency. There was no such
thing as a fixed standard of value ; because even gold
itself, which was popularly considered as a fixed standard,
varied with different circumstances in different countries.
They had heard that a great part of the present evils arose
from our National Debt—a debt which had been, it was
alleged, contracted by a profligate aristocracy and an obsti-
nate Government. There was no man who had seen
the result of that war, and who had benefitted by it (and
there were many such in that House), who could lay it
to the charge of Mr. Pitt, that he had unjustly entered
into that war, unless he meant to say, at the same time,
that lie should have been prepared to consent to a change
in the-monarchical representation and religious system of
this country. Fifteen years had now elapsed since the
conclusion of the war—its effects we still felt, and could
not get rid of them—our efforts, however, must be strenu-
ously directed to alleviate the evil consequences of the
war. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had endeavoured
to pursue a certain plan, part of which was to reduce the
public funds. It hal been said by some, that the fact of
the public funds rising was an undoubted indication of
national prosperity. He disagreed from the opinion.
It was a well-established fact, that the public funds might
rise in national prosperity and in national adversity—in
prosperity on account of public confidence, as in 1825 ;
and in adversity on account of the want of confidence,
and the feeling among men that they had no other
profitable means of investing their capital. He be-
lieved that money to a large extent had been sent
up from the country to be invested in the funds, with
the view of creating that rise in the price of stock
which was said to be an index of public prosperity, but
which, he contended, indicated no such thing. It was
said that the reissuing of paper money would bring this
country into the same state as that of France just previous
to the revolution ; and that if the Minister was allowed to
pay the claims of the Government with Exchequer Bills,
and to make them equivalent to money, he would not re-
sort to taxation to furnish hint with funds. The Govern-
ment expences were not merely those which the service of
the country called for, but the payment of the interest of
the National Debt. The whole of these expences were
raised from the peop!e—the interest of the debt in the
shape of Excise and Customs. The latter were now much
diminished, and he must declare his firm conviction that,
sooner or later, the Government must resort to the measure
of a depreciated standard—they must have a paper cur-
rency—or commit a direct and open bankruptcy; but they
never could go on in this course. In this condition of the
country, what would be the consequences if we were com-
pelled to go to war, or even if we could remain at peace?
It was foolish to blind ourselves to the real position of the
country. There was a paper, an extract from which he
would read, though he had little doubt that all the Mem-
bers of that House were well acquainted with it, and which
appeared to him particularly applicable to present circum-
stances. It was nearly at the end of Mr. Hunme's " Essay
upon Public Credit." Mr. Hume had, indeed, been a pro-
phet • but he had never calculated that there would be at
last found a Government that would, out of an unheard-
of principle of generosity, pay more than it had borrowed,
and place the country in such a situatiom as that in which
it stood at this moment. Mr. Hume said—
., 1 must confess that there is a strange supineness, from
long custom, crept into all ranks of men, with regard to pub-
lic debts ; not unlike what divines so vehemently complain
of with regard to their religious doctrines. We all own that
the most sanguine imagination cannot hope, either that
Oils or any future Ministry will be possessed of such rigid
and steady frugality, as to make any considerable progress
in the payment of our debts, or that the situation of foreign
affairs will, for any long time, allow them leisure and
tranquillity sufficient for such an undertaking. What then
is to become of us? Were we ever so good Christians,
and ever so resigned to providence, this, methinks, were
a curious question, even considered as a speculative one,
and what it might not be altogether impossible to form
some conjectural solution of. The events 'here will depend
little on the contingencies of battles, negociations,,intrigues,
and factions. There seems to be a natural progress of things
which may guide our reasoning. As it would have required
but a moderate share of prudence, when we first began this
system of mortgaging, to have foretold, from the nature of
men, and of ministers, that things would necessarily be carried
to the length we see ; so now that they have at last happily
reached it, it may not be difficult to guess at the consequence.
It must, indeed, be one of these two events :—Either the na.
lion must destroy public credit, or public credit will destroy
the nation."

He thought these opinions were perfectly true, and what
was the consequence ? We were now at peace, but it
was impossible that any man could say we should not soon
again be involved in war. If we were, we must then be
forced upon the consideration of the question of the cur-
rency. We must again go into the market—we must in-
crease the amount of the 'national debt—and filially, we
must follow the system which all other nations had
adopted, we must make a compromise with the public
creditor. That was a part of the question on which it
was a matter of great delicacy to speak. Those men
were no patriots—they had no regard for the honour of
their country (an honour above that involved in keeping
up the payment of the full interest of its debt), who,
when large fleets and armies were wanted, would not
keep them up, and put themselves to some inconvenience to
maintain them. Before he sat down, he wished to call
the attention of the House to the state of public feeling
out of doors. It was most depressing—it was a state that
must soon have an end, and he besought them to consider
it with the most deliberate attention. lf, in the course
of the observations he had made, he had wounded the
feelings of any individual, he was sorry for it, and be
should much regret if he had said any thing that would
tend to diminish the Value or importance of public credit.
The circumstances in which we were now placed were
stronger and more imperative than any common rule of
action. We must trust for our deliverance to Providence
in some respect ; but we must endeavour also by our own
exertions, and by the readiness of all to make sacrifices for
the common good, to escape from our present difficulties.
Above all, the Members of that House must not let it ap-
pear that they did not deeply sympathize, but that they
were swayed by the wishes of the Minister against their
own consciences, and against the wishes and feelings of
those who had sent them thither.

Mr. I3ULLER said there were two questions to be con-
sidered :—The first was, what was the extent of the dis-
tress? The second, what was the reme,ly? The exist-
ence of the distress was admitted. The only thing, there-
fore, to be inquired into was—first, the extent of the dis-
tress ; and secondly, whether it was or was not of that na-
ture over which the Government could exec: controul.
He thought the distress was exaggerated. The petitions
on which so much stress was laid appeared to him suspi-
cious. 'I hey told of the distresses of others, lilt they said
little of their own. A little selfishness would, in his opi-
nion, be more natural. The Hon. Member for Newark
had answered the arguments of the President of the Board
of Trade, by observing, that they were not in accordance
with the statements contained in the petitions, :111,1 lie al-
luded one entrusted to himself, signed by 1,500 persons.
though
so i
ntatting
people
prosperity u'erev e; and 0 ! r :1 i
fio t
ring] v
raesnitte,
y,,
Nthoeyw' hwteremno
it was only the aggrieved who complained, they, would
have 1,500 distressed persons out of a population of about
20,000, whit] was by no means so laimmtable a propor-
tion as the Hon. Member would have represented it.
He thought the Hon. Gentlemen opposite were liahle to
the charge of inconsistency. They would not, in enu-
merating the causes of the prevailing distress, condescend
to take into aceount the succession of hail seasons, or the
altered state of foreign relations ; but with ti,e covtancv
of a romantic lover, they clung to their dear bank notes and

their beloved monop.aly. To free trade they attributed
those ills which the modification of it that was introduced
had alone averted. They attributed the distress to a dimi-
nished circulating medium, at a time that it was more
abundant than it had ever been known to be before.—
(Hear, hear.)—For himself, he believed that the distress
of the manufacturing classes proceeded from causes of a
changeable nature, while those of the agriculturists were
attributable to permanent causes.

Mr. HUSKISSON—Sir, the greater portion—indeed I
might say the whole—of the debate upon the part of the
lion. Gentleman who brought forward this motion, and
of those who have given it any support, seems to be some
undefined alteration in the currency.—(Hear, hear.)—l
have heard, it is true, from an Hon. Baronet, an episode
which does not seem to connect itself very essentially with
the currency, and ou which therefore I shall say nothing ;
and I have also heard from that Hon. Baronet, that ho
was a convert to the doctrines of Mr. Hume on public
credit; and he then proceeds to prophecy, that perhaps
many Sessions would not go by, nor the course of his own
life run out, before something like a national bankruptcy
would take place. Sir, I hope the Hon. Baronet will live
long, and continue to be, as he is now, an honour to this
House; but I at the same time trust he will not prove a
truer prophet in this instance than Mr. Hume.—(Cheers.)
—I beg to assure the Hon. Member for Shaftesbury, who
introduced the proposition, and the Hon. Member for
Shoreham, who suggested the amendment, that it is not
any want of respect towards them, or the Hon. Gentle-
men who have supported them, that induees the to decline
entering into the question, which, to him, seems necessary
as a remedy for the existing evils—l mean the currency.
I think the doctrine of a change in the currency has not
met with great encouragement from the House, and I feel
that from the time when the Bullion Committee was first
appointed, on which Committee I sat, I have had such
frequent opportuuity of stating my opinions upon this sub-
ject, that were I now to dwell upon them at large, I should
unwarrantably trespass on your time. I shall, therefore,
confine myself to stating, that the change of the currency
is certainly one of the causes of the public distress—
(Hear, hear, hear,)—but there are many others; and
as to the question of the currency, it must, in my
mind, be considered as for ever set at root.—(Cheers. )
Sir, in 1819, when that Act was passed which has
since taken the name of my Eight Hon. Friend—l
meats when Mr. Peel's Act was passed—l was ill, and
unable to attend in my place ; but if I had been present, I
should have decidedly given his motion my most cordial
support. In 1522, however, when the Hen. Member for
Essex proposed an inquiry into the state of the currency, I
had an opportunity of stating my objections at length ;
and the House, notwithstanding the able and eloquent
manner d cid yet, aliftethr attwlolonn.
ights Member
ofde sup pd is propo-
sition,
bya
ma-
jority of seven to one—of, I believe, one hundred amid
ninety-four to thirty, in favour of the amendment I moved,
which was to the effect that we should not agree to the
alteration.—(Hear, hear.)—Sir, if this was the view of
Parliament in 1822, when the currency could scsrcely be
considered as restored to a sound state, is it probable that
in 1830, eight years after, when matters had acquired a
stability from time and custom, we should entertain such
a proposition ? Sir, I say to the House, and I would with
it to go forth to the people, that there could not be a greater
curse in a commercial country than any vecillation or
alteration in that which is the common measure of all
dealings—the foundation of all national security, and the
guarantee of all credit between man and man.— (Cheers )
—I can understand that Hon. Gentlemen in 1519, might,
in the discussion as to whether we were to adhere to the
former standard or alter it, have advocated our remainiog
as we were, though I must think that Parliament acted
most wisely in resisting the ancient standard ; but I cannot
understand how it is that anybody could censent to ag tin
expose the country to the disquietude, agitation, and alarm
which it had formerly to endure, and which must ineriteh'y
be the result of such a proposition, were it to be cat rigid into
effect. I am not sorry, however, it has been brought forward,
because one of the causes of the public distress is to be
found in the doubt that prevails respecting the decision
Parliament are likely to come to upon this subject. Ic i,
a matter of much consequence, then, that we should hasten
to pronounce that decision after such a fashion as shall
leave no room for hope or fear of change.—(Cheers. )
There is one other topic on which I wish to touch before
I proceed to the general question. It is that of the one
pound notes : and, Sir, I frankly admit, that there is one
case in which one pound notes might circulate without
danger.—(Cheers from the Opposition Beaches.)—Yes,
Sir, I admit this; but I at the same time remember the
wretched circumstances in which the country was placed
in the years from 1822 to 1826—circumstances, from the
effects of which we have not yet recovered. I think, Sir,
that one pound notes might circulate safely, while there
I was a little excitement in the commerce of the country;
but whenever there was any inducement to speculation,
the facility affiatied by this circulating medintn would be
followed by these results—that all prices rising in the mar-
kets at home, the sovereigns either in circulation, or in
the coffers of the Bank of England, would be in demand
to send out of the country, because a corresponding rise
would not have taken place in other countries. And when
this rise had taken place in your own markets, you would
be just as yon were in 1525. You would think every thing
was in estate the most prosperous, and you would dream of
nothing but felicity and fortune, till not a sovereign was left
in the country. Then, on a sudden, would come a panic,
when it was discovered that the gold had been all disposed
of to pay an undue price in foreign markets, in consequence
of the fictitious price that was kept ep at home. I say,
therefore, you niest submit to the inconvenience of having
notes of a higher denomination of value than the metallic
currency, else will you be perpetually subject to a ruinous
vacillation of prices. Consequently, Sir, I shall now, and
on all other occasions, resist to the utmost of my power
any new circulation of one-pound notes by the country
bankers.--( Cheers. )—Having said this, I shall now address
myself to the question more immediately before the House,
namely, the question respecting the general distress. Sir,
I am not one of those disposed to tinder-rate this distress,
We have pregnant proof of its existence in the document be-
fore us, from which we must also draw the inference that
it has prevailed to a great degree during the last yeer. The
document I allude to, Sir, is of a far superior authority to
private communication, and even to the petitions of the
people, and it is that which shows the relative state of the
Savings' Banks in 1828 and 1829, Sir, this document
declares that in 1828 the amount of money deposited in
these banks was 945,0001., while the amount drawn
from them was 678,0001. But how was it in 1829 ?
In 1829, the deposits only amounted to 449,0001., while
nearly one million and a half had been drawn. It is but
proper to state, however, and I am happy iu being able
to do so, that there has been some improvement in the first
two months of this years—(lient, hear, hear. )—With
such a document, then, before us, it is impossible to deny
that there is considerable distress. I know its intensity,
and I deplore its extent ; and I must acknowledge its ex,
treme pressure upon the lower classes during the late severe
winter. Still, Sir, I cannot consent to take a gloomy and
desponding view of the situation of the country, as sonic
people are disposed to do. I believe teat however England
may be crippled at this moment by circumstances of domestic
calamity, it is impossible to suppose we are in a state of
helpless weakness and irretrievable decay.—(Cheere..)--
I entertain a juster confidence iu the resources of the
country.—(Hear.)—l consider the springs and sources of
the national prosperity to be unimpaired.—(Cheers.)—
Our agriculture has not yet suffered—our manufactures
are not in decay—our commerce is nut ditniniehed—use
accumul tted capital remains—the energy of the people
reinains--and, more than all, the inthistry of the people,
which is unparalleled in the history of nations, and
which is the main stay and safeguard of the empire;
remains.—(Loud cheers.)—Beaitles, Sir, I have farther
and better grounds for confidence, in a 'tomtid and en-
lightened public opinion exercising, as I say it does, year
after year, in a higher degree its salutary influence, as wed
on the councils of Ministers as on the proceedings of Par-
liatnent.—(Cheers.)—l think, Sir, that no one who reads
the signs of the times—no one who has observed the events
of last Session—no one who hie observed the events of Isss
week, can deny the paramount influence of popular opiuime
—(Cheers.)—This power, Sir, may not be directly wealth
! or productive industry, but it is the shield of both--it is the
safeguard of the nation against empyriciem—it is the finger-
post to guide us in all circumstances of difficulty and danger
to the road of safety.—(Loud cheers.)-13tit, Sir, we
have now to consider what are the causes of the distress;
toy opinion is not one formed pending the discussion, anti
the
iclh
I h periodhave
ex excitementexpressed
igy nsmalui ei
tacittiits
eeiisip
roneke:leons%tvtsl:l to
BIM; many
of
env
Hon.ii "F
Friendsriae t
too gh;
reealPi dir)e:srissdnieuingreth
upon
t spet•ishy sty
to
the Board
springs of
fiTcruailteie.s
aßriuset,frSonic,lif
and sources of productive industry.—(Loud and continued
cheering.)—Let it be remarked, however, that this
is not the pressure of a moment ; it is from its ben
too great in ordinary time* that it is so severely fats
in those fits of exacerbation which are the result of
bail seasons, or an alteration in our foreign relations, or
any temporary panic. These, however, are accidents and
casualties to which a commercial country like outs
must be perpetually liable ; but if we were habitually
iti a. robust anti vigorous stets, this would not have the
power to produce such calemitosis effects. The wages of
labour were too low and the profits of capital toe swat ,

and the causes of this Unsatisfactory state of things were
various. The Right Hon. Gentleman went on to say
that he must admit that several of these causes were en-

tirely out of the controul of Parliament. For instance, it
was entirely beyond the power of Parliament to determine
t he prices at which our manufactures could be sold in fo-
reign markets in competition with the manufactures and
industry of other countries. The House could not inter-
pose in contracts and in dealings between man and man.
The evils were, in many cases, the effect of causes which
the country had deliberately and wisely encountered in or-
der to escape from greater and more formidable evils ;
such, for instance, as the determination to put an end
to a system of unconvertible paper currency. The Hon.
Members for Cornwall and for Newark had ascribed
the distress to that change in the commercial system which
persons had nick-named the new system of free trade.
If this were a cause, it was certainly within the controul
of Parliament; but not one single gentleman had told him
what it was in free trade that he disapproved, or what it
was that the Government had done which he wished
to hare undone. No man brought forward any thing
of his own, though they deluded a suffering people
with their misrepresentations.—(Cheers.)—No part of
this new system was other than a necessary modifica-
tion, or total repeal of old laws, and he should like
to know what was the system called free trade. It con-
sisted in the simplifying and modifying the laws of cus-
toms and navigation, and the laws of protection, prohibi-
tion, restriction, and interference, with all the policy and
interests connected with the commerce of the country.
The policy of what was sailed free trade was not to force
exports. He wished to force nothing, but to leave it to
individuals to follow their own views and interests in a
manner most conducive to public prosperity. Did any
Gent. wish to restore the six or seven hundred statutes re-

gulating commerce ; and did they, by restoring them, wish
to render navigation as difficult as it had been ? Did they
wish again to introduce prohibitions, and to revive mono-
polies? If they did, in God's name let them make the
attempt. His whole answer to the cry about exports
was, if you export at all, you must sell at the prices which
foreign markets will allow you to procure, and you must
cope with free capital and free industry, which can beat
you in the market, unless your trade be free. He would
tell the Hon. Alderman opposite, that exports are sub-
ject to the inevitable laws which governed the commerce
of the country when it was at peace with foreign states.
He could not believe that exports would continue year
after year if they were made at a loss. Profits were
no doubt very small upon many exports, and upon some
speculations there was probably an actual loss ; but upon
the aggregate it was impossible to suppose that men of
common sense, of prudence, and calculation, would con-
tinue in their system, if it did not afford at least a
small and legitimate profit. But then the House was told
to look at the home trade of the country. The home
trade of every country must, of necessity, be of great im-
portance and value ; but if there were a foreign trade, the
prices in the home market of every article must be regu-
lated by the prices in the foreign market ; and if the prices
in the home market were low, the necessary consequences
would be that the prices in the foreign market would be
low also—for these things were regulated by competition.
But this home trade, it would appear, had been sacrificed,
ruined, put down, in consequence of the foreign trade be-
ing forced or encouraged by the system of Government.
He would now show whether this were really the case.—
The first article he would refer to was cotton wool.—
The importation for five years, from 1815 to 1820,
was 139,000,000 lbs. ; whilst the importation, on the
average, for the five years, from 1825 to 1830, was
210,000,000, showing an increase of nearly 90,000,0001b5.
The export of the raw material in the same periods, had
been 111,000,000 lbs. and 21,000,000 lbs , leaving an
increase of nearly 90,000,000 lbs. for home consumption;
and this increase had chiefly occurred in the latter years.
The cotton wool, remaining for manufacture, in the
country, in the first period, on an annual average, was
127,000,000 lbs., and in the latter 180,000,0001b5.
Taking the export of yarn, the result would be simi-
lar ; whilst the home consumption, in the first in-
stance, was 255,000,00 of yards, and in the last pe-
riod 360,000,000. Thus the home trade, in this
article, bad nearly doubled. The next article was sheep's
wool. The country depended upon foreigners for all
the fine wool used in clothes worn by the higher
and middle classes. The importation of foreign wool for
the first five years of the same period, was 14,514,000165.,
whilst on the average of the last period it was 28,500,000 ;
and thus the importation of foreign wool had nearly doubled.
But it was remarkable that whilst the importation had
nearly doubled, the exportation had not increased at all ;
and the inference was, that the domestic trade and con-
sumption had increased. Another article was tallow, and
he would also mention palm oil. The importation of tallow
had been 545,000 cwt., and in the last five years 946,000;
and the state of exports showed the increase to be in the
Home Trade. Of raw and thrown silk, the importation
had been 1,440,000 and 3,457,000. Without the new
system the country would have lost the importation alto-
gether. On the average of the first five years, the impor-
tation of hemp had been 369,000 cwt., and in the last five
930,000 cwt. It had been the same with hides, and many
other articles ; but the last he should mention was timber,
which in the two periods had increased from 289,000 to
540,000 loads. Thus the home commerce and industry of
the country had increased with rapidity. The shipping
interest had been stated to be in ruin and decay. He had
no doubt that the profits were small. By documents laid
before Parliament, it appeared that in 1814 there were
2,500,000 tons, and in 1828, 2,400,000 tons. This had
been the falling off in the amount of tonnage as registered in
England ; but in 1814, 50,000 tons of shipping had been em-
ployed in transports, and ships had then been registered which
were no longer in existence, By another document it appeared
the tonnage was in 1816, 2,783,000,whi15t that employed in•
wards was 1,415,000, and outwards 1,340,000; being alto-
gether, inwards and outwards, 2,756,000 tons. In 1828
the tonnage had increased, both inwards and outwards.
It appeared that in 1828 one-half the tonnage was required
for the same extent of movement and weight of goods that
were required in 1816, from the superior velocity of
voyages and other circumstances. This necessarily pro-
duced cheapness. It was impossible that it should be
otherwise; and it was upon this that all the complaints
were founded. The ship-owner said, " Let me have the
navigation on the same terms on which it was during the
war." Now, nothing could be more easy than to indulge
this desire. Only re-enact all those repealed laws, and
then the one ton of shipping would be required instead of
the, half. Then would return that state of things which
some thought the perfection of human wisdom. But, if
we took the benefit, let it be recollected that we must also
take the risk.—(Hear, hear.) We should be beaten in
our commerce and navigation by every other nation in
the world. He would assert that if these alterations had
not been made in our commercial laws, or if these altera-
tions were now departed from, or if they were not
followed up by other necessary and consistent mea-
sures, the country would decline in all its commer-
cial enterprises, both foreign and domestic, of which be
had now shown the gigantic and prodigious growth. But
he heard it said by some, " Disregard your foreign com-
merce, and look only to your home trade." Were the ad-
vocates of so inconsiderate a principle not aware that we
enedel not carry on any one branch► of our domestic trade
or manufacture without a foreign supply? We did not
grow enough of the raw produce for the consumption of our
population, and, if it were not for the industry of the people,
where should we derive the means of purchasing those raw
materials which were the groundwork of all that tended to
our comforts mind enjoyments? We could not afford to
neglect our foreign trade. We should be bankrupts in our
home trade, bankrupts in our agricultural interests, and
bankrupts in all our resources, if the system which those
gentlemen recommerided were adopted.—(Cheers.)—lie
could state it as a positive fact, within his own knowledge,
from an intimate and frequent intercourse with Mr. Pitt,
when he prodded over the councils of this country, that
there was nothing he lamented more than that the events
of the war prevented him from following up the measures
necessary for relieving commerce from those shackles
and unnecessary restrictions imposed by an unwise po-
licy in less enlightened times. Instead of treading back
the steps we had taken, it was the duty, and he
hoped it would be felt as the duty of his Majesty's
Government, to proceed in the direct path, and to re-
move all monopoly and restriction, as they had already
done in one great branch of the consumption of the
country—namely, in the trade and manufacture of beer.
lie would now go to one other cause of the difficulties of
the country—a cause certainly within the controul of the
House. lie 'lAL:ded to the positive 1111101112 i of taxation, and
to the mode of its ,cliQtribution over various (lasses of time
community. With respect to the positive amount of tax.-
ation, be had stated before ,the Committee, appointed to in-
quire into agricultural distress in If4i, what his opinions
were upon the subject. The Committee had reported that
it could not disguise the amount of public beitheus, and
that more of taxes were yaised upon the people, tough
the nominal amount had remained the same ; and it re-
commended that the taxes should be reduced in proportion'
as the value of money had been incseesed. Ile was bound
to say that the taxes had been so reduced, for they had
been decreased from between seventy and eighty millions a
year to between forty and fifty millions. This would hear
a proportion to the most exaggerated views of the farmer's
depreciation of the currency. This, however, was no
reason why reduction should not be carried still further.

He for one most cordially thanked the Government
for the efforts they had already made to reduce the
expenditure of the country, and he heard, with very
great satisfaction, that they were still directing their
attention not only to enforce the checks already ex-
isting, but to devise additional checks, in order to
prevent that tendency to increase the amount of their
separate expenditure which was unfortunately so pre-
valent in all of them. A tendency of this sort existed in
all the departments, and it was most vivacious in that
branch commonly called the dead weight. Ministers had
reduced much, but he hoped they would reduce more. He
trusted they would still find another crap to cut down, and
that something snore would be left than the mere gleanings
of their first harvest. He looked to very considerable re-
ductions in the charges of collecting the revenue, which
were enormous and totally unnecessary. He also expected
a reduction in the Colonial expenditure, and he hoped to
see a total saving of the very heavy expences incurred on
the coast of Africa.—(Hear, hear.)—The Diplomatic and
Consular establishments ought to be reduced. He would
add that the administration of the revenue under the ma-
nagement of the office of Woods and Forests, would ad-
mit of regulation, by which they might be placed upon a
system of less laxity and more effectual controul. These
funds did not form an item in the Civil list, but they were
part of the revenue commuted for the Civil list. Although a
proportion of revenue was properly left for the State, and
for the gratification of the Sovereign, yet by judicious ma-
nagement it might be made to detract less from the re-
sources of the country. He had not voted against any one
of the estimates proposed in the present Session for the
establishments connected with the Army, the Navy, or the
Ordnance; but if every thing were exactly in the place
which he wished—if there were no mists in the horizon
—if the sky were clear and bright—considerable reduc-
tions might be made in the naval establishments; and
also some reduction, consistent with safety, in our mili-
tary force, now that Ireland was in a state of tranquillity.
He trusted that the expenditure would be less in the next
year, but even when all the reductions had been carried
to their utmost, the question still was, would they be
sufficient to remove those difficulties which afflicted the
country? He meant the diminished profits upon capital,
and the low and inadequate wages of labour, which re-
ceived less relief in the removal of taxes than they ought
to receive. If this were not attended to, he bad no he-
sitation in saying that the labouring classes would fall into
a state of the most extreme difficulties. He very well
knew how little favour any opinions received in that
House when they were quoted from the writings even of
men of the highest authority upon that subject ; but whe-
ther it were from taxation both positive and distributive,
or from what other cause, to the extreme state of dis-
tress of the labouring classes, described by Adam Smith,
this country was very fast approaching. The amount of
taxation which his Right Hon. Friend proposed to reduce
was considerable. He had stated it at 3,100,000/. His
Right Hon. Friend would not believe that he did him a
disservice in stating, that he thought his Right Hon.
Friend had undervalued the benefit which that re-
duction would confer upon the public. He had looked
at the net produce paid into the exchequer during the
last five years of the taxes which his Right Hon. Friend
proposed to reduce (and be it observed that those five
years included 1827, when the barley crop was so short
that Parliament met at an unusual period for the purpose
of opening the ports), and he found that the annual ave-
rage was 3,737,000/. The relief, therefore, would be
greater than his Right Hon. Friend had anticipated, and
there could be no doubt that the eventual relief would be
between four and five millions. His Right Hon. Friend
had stated the surplus of the present year at 2,600,0001. ;
if to that were added the produce of the new taxes to be
imposed, and the saving that would be effected by the
conversion of the Four per Cents., there would be a sur-
plus of above 4,000,0001. to set against the reduction (as
he believed it would be) of 3,737,0001. NOW really it
was impossible to go nearer the mark, or to allow of a less
margin to an expenditure so large as that of this country.
He now came to the consideration of another question. lie
was aware that in what he was about to say he should
tread upon very tender ground. lie was aware how
many prejudices he should have to encounter, how many
views of interest—erroneous views in his apprehension—
he should have to overcome. But he was also aware that
what the country requirrd of every Member of that House
was, that he should honestly and fairly state what were
the views and opinions which he entertained on questions
of great public moment. However unwilling, therefore,
he was to continue to trespass on the attention of the
House, and however numerous the personal motives
that would induce him to hesitate in doing so, be
felt it his duty to proceed ; and to declare, that after
the best consideration which he had been able to bestow
upon the subject since the evening on which his Right
Hon. Friend made his financial statement, he still enter-
tained strong doubts (for he would not call them more
than doubts) whether, after the remission of the taxes
which his Right Hon. Friend proposed to remit, a further
relief would not be indispensably necessary to those fruc
tifying capitals devoted to the employment of industry, as
well as to industry itself; a relief which could be afforded
only by transferring a larger part of the existing burden
from the income of productive industry to that class of in-
come which was not derived from manufictnres and corn-
mei ce.—(Hear, hear.)—He would appeal to his Hon. and
Gallant Friend who had spoken that evening, or to any
other Hen. Member who had lived long enough to com-
pare the state and condition of this great luxury in point of
improvement, wealth and luxury, with what they were 30
of 40 years ago. Let them compare, for instance, the
amount of the duty on manufactured plate in 1901, and
its amount last year. Since 1801, the duty on silver plate
had been augmented from Is. 3d. an ounce, to I s. 8(1. ;
and the duty on gold plate from 15s. to 18s. In 1804,
the net produce of the duty on gold and silver plate was
5,0001. ; last year it was 105,000/.—(Hear, hear.)—
Estimating it by the duty, the consumption of the pre•
cious metals last year in the metropolis could not
have been less than eight hundred thousand pounds.
But let any man compare the narrow transactions of the
present day on the Royal Exchange and on the other great
commercial marts with their extent a few years ago. Let
them consider that the Bank of England had six or seven
millions locked up for want of profitable employment.
Let them consider that large sums were also locked up in
the hands of private bankers, for a similar reason. Let
them consider the temptations to which our moneyed per-
sons were exposed to enter into foreign loans, and other
hazardous foreign speculations. Let them consider that
the country bankers were, some unable, and others un-
willing, to make those advances, formerly so great a sti-
mulus to the industry of their respective neighbourhoods;
and that instead of that they employed agents in London,
either to lay out their capitals in stock, or in encouraging
speculations which, as the Hon. Member for Northum-
berland had observed, created artificial prices, but which
did not add a single pepper-corn to the real wealth of the
country. The House had heard that evening several po-
sitions which were perfectly obvious. It was perfectly
obvious that after the restoration of peace, when the capi-
tal and industry of other countries came into competition
with our's, that we must meet foreign merchants and ma-
nufacturers fairly in the market. It was equally obvious
that the priee of any article which we exported to a foreign
market must be regulated by the price at which it could
he furnished by our foreign competitors, and that the price
which that article fetched in a foreign market must govern
its price at home. Seeing that we were the greatest manu-
facturing and trading country in the world, and that we
took the produce of our industry to all the countries of the
world, our home market m ust necessarily be on a level
with all those markets, To this, however, there was one
great exception. We exported the results of our industry
in all possible shapes ; but of our raw produce, with the
exception of our mineral wealth, we experted nothing.
No sustenance, no produce of our soil, went to a foreign
market. Our produce was in fact inadequate for our own
consumption. The price of that in our home market
was maintained (he would by no means say unnecessarily)
by legislative regulations; but the price of all our manu-
factured commodities must depend on the foreign markets.
The consequence of this necessarily was, that our industrious
classes laboured under a disadvantage ; and the inevitable
result was a struggle between the capitalist who employed
the labourer, and the labourer who was so employed;
in
which struggle the one party or the other must in some des
gree suffer. What was the csnclusion which he drew from
all this ? That it imperatively imposed upon us the necessity
of considering whether, in the distribution of taxation, it
might not be practicable to diminish the burden upon those
who were engaged in productive industry. Ile would not
go through the whole list of our taxes; but it was evident
that the duties on malt, spirits, tea, sugar, tobacco, soap,
hemp, rum, &c, fell more heavily on the poorer classes
that; on the rich. There was not one of those taxes
to the essissenee of which the same objection might not
be made, as to tics gzistence of the taxes which his
Right Hon. Friend had reduced. There was not one of
those taxes, the remission of which would not be a relief
not only in the amount, but in the removal of injurious
restrictions. There was soap, for instance. During the war
the duty on soap was between fifty and sixty per cent.
Now, however, in consequence of the greater cheapness of
the article, the duty amounted to a hundred and forty or
ahundred and tifty per cent. What was the consequence ?
Great
lose and great vexation in those manufactories in
which it was extensively used. Then there was sugar.
When it was considered that sugar home a large portion o,

the taxation during the war, and when the overwhelming
distress of the West India planters was also considered, he
could not help regretting that his Right Hon. Friend had
not enlarged his views, and reduced that tax also. Many
of the other taxes were liable to similar observations. The
consideration, that in no other country in Europe was so
large a portion of the taxes levied on articles of con-
sumption, ought to have great weight in our deliberations
on this subject. In the second place, in no other country
in the world did there exist so large a mass of wealth,
belonging to that class who did not directly employ it in
bringing forth the produce of labour. In the third
place, in no other country in the world was so large a
proportion of the aggregate public revenue mortgaged
to pay public encumbrances; thereby rendering it un-
wise not so to distribute the taxation as to diminish the
weight on that mortgage. In the fourth place, from no
other country in the world did so large a proportion of the
wealthy, but not productive class, migrate to spend their
incomes in other countries. It had been said that if ab-
sentees were charged with taxes, they might take away
from the country not only the increase of their capita!, but
the capital itself. Most of these, however, were so cir-
cumstanced as to render that impracticable. It hail also
been said that an absentee tax was more fitted fur a time of
war than for a time of peace. He was of the opposite opi-
nion. He had dwelt upon these subjects at greater length
than he had intended; but he had done so because he had
thought it his duty, as an unconnected Member of Parlia-
ment, to state what were his views respecting them. He
knew how how difficult it would be for Government to
carry those views into effect. He knew what mistaken
notions various interests would take up concerning them.
All he could say was, that lie had stated what he most sin-
cerely believed would, if adopted, be beneficial to the coun-
try. He did not complain that others did not take the
same views that he took. But if at any future day his
Majesty's Government should take the same views, they
should have Isis cordial support, not only in smoothing the
difficulties which might present themselves, but in conci-
liating the feelings of those who might be averse to their
adoption. There was one point on which he
wished to say a few words—he meant the necessity
of placing the Bank of England in a situation of greater
security, so as to prevent the possible recurrence of that
greatest of all calamities, a suspension of cash payments.
He would repeat the opinion which he had expressed last
Session, of the impropriety of the Bank of England trust-
ing
the support of their credit to a capital locked up, and
unavailable : instead of resting it on those sound princi-
ples of banking which might guard them against those
emergencies that would occur even in times of peace, and
against which there was no remedy but that which the
panic of 1825 had really rendered necessary. If the
country banks, in the revival of that credit and activity
which he trusted was about to take place, should again
branch out into speculations, and an unfavourable state of
the Exchanges should be the consequence, the Bank of
England might be compelled to take a step injurious to its
credit, and to the confidence reposed in it by the public.
He wished, therefore, that it would not lock up its ca-
pital ; but that it would keep a portion of it available for
any contingencies which might occur.—His Right Hon.
Friend proposed a revision of the system of country hanks,
and the giving of publicity to their proceedings. Let the
same publicity attach to the proceedings of the Bank of
England. Public opinion would then be upon the watch
to prevent the occurrence of such a calamity as was
about to take place at a period of profound peace, in 1825.
Give it a monopoly, but exact a correspondent and a strict
security to the public.—(Hear.)—Do what they might on
the subject of the state of the country, that state must be
one of comparative privation for some time, arising from
causes deep, distant, and connected with the late long-
protracted war. These were yet felt, even after a series
of fifteen years of peace. He hail been mixed up in all
public transactions of that period, and had witnessed that
there was a possible vicissitude which a great country could
experience that England had not felt, and felt sensibly,
during that severe contest—a mutiny in its fleet, a rebel.
lion and a civil war in Ireland, the stoppage of the Bank,
the subsidizing of almost all the powers of Europe to fight
the common battle against a potent foe, and the successive
overthrow of each as soon as they had received that sub-
sidy ; embargoes laid on our trade, and interdiction and
blockades staring us in every port of Europe ; he had
witnessed all this, and its effect on the leading men of that
time, and the manner in which they had been viewed by
the persons presiding over the councils of the country at
that period, and he could not observe, though he taxed his
memory to its utmost bent, that during all that period he
could recollect an attempt at oppression or spoliation of
any class in the State. Nor was there, through all the
period of that long-protracted struggle, an opportunity af-
forded to those who might have been jealous of the fair cha-
racter and fame of England to put their finger on a single act
of ours as a nation, and say, " That is a blot in the annals of
your country."—(Hear.)—But, how striking would be the
contrast if, in a time ofgeneral peace, after the blast of war
had, for 15 years past, ceased to blow in our ears, we should
be found c ipable of entertaining, on: the first sensation of
distress and difficulty, which it was not hard to account for,
a proposition to invade the rights of one class in society in
order to relieve another, and commit an act of spoliation
which the world would not hesitate to denounce as a breach
of public faith? Would not the enemy of our fair fame,
if we attempted to remedy our embarrassment by the rash
measure of lowering the currency, proudly and insultingly
point to the record of the transaction and say, " That page
is a blot in your annals ?"—(Loud cheers, particularly from
Ministers and the benches immediately near them.)—
That hour would not fail to be an hour of triumph to the
enemies of our national greatness. Any measure which
had a tendency to encourage such a proposal should cer-
tainly have none of his sanction ; and it was on this view
of this subject he must refuse his assent either to the origi-
nal motion or the amendment--(Hear, hear,)—more parti-
cularly as his Majesty's Government had granted, or, the
state of the Irish peer, one Committee of Inquiry. Another
had been promised on the subject of the dead weight.
The Hon. Member for Dover, too, had a motion fur a
Committee on those particular subjects, but to which he,
in a former Session of Parliament, had the honour to draw
their attention ; and on that occasion he (Mr. Huskisson)
pledged himself to give him all the aid in his power. If
he had, in addition to this, a wish, it was one he had long
formed—namely, a Committee to inquire into the possi-
bility of improving and fixing on a permanent and im-
proved principle of safety in our banking system, both as
respected the Bank of England and other banks in general.
With these measures of improvement, in addition to what
bad been promised by his Right Hon. Friend, he professed
he should, for the present Session of Parliament, feel they
had enough to occupy them profitably, and remain content.
Sir R. VYVYAN explained.
Lord ALTHORP then rose amid loud and general
cries of "Adjourn." After some difficulty the Speaker
obtained order, and the Noble Lord proceeded. He should
have felt great difficulty in rising after the very able and
eloquent speech of the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool,
had he entertained any intention of following him through-
out its various topics. But he had no such intention, for
he nearly concurred in every syllable that the Right Hon.
Gent. had said.—(hear, hear.)—lt had been stated by
the Ilon. Member for Wootton Bassett, that all the hands
in the manufacturing districts were at present in employ-
ment, and in employment, too, at good wages. Now if
that were the case, it was quite impossible to believe that
any distress existed in that quarter. He was afraid, how-
ever, from the general body of information which had been
poured into the House from those districts, that the state-
ment of the lion. Member for Wootton Bassett was much
exaggerated.—(Hear.)—He believed, however, that they
must admit that some improvement had commenced to
exhibit itself in the country. He hoped that it would
long continue; but he must say that Isis hopes were
not very sanguine, as he recollected that there bad
been before several symptoms of improvement, which
had subsequently disappeared. lie was therefore ob-
liged to assume, for the purpose of argument, that
there was great distress in the country ; and then the
question came to this—" Are the modes now proposed
to us the best modes for obviating that distress ?" or,
" Are we obliged to admit them to be such, in order
to show that we have some sympathy for the people?"
Now, for his own part, he had no hesitation in avowing,
that he had such confidence in the good sense of the peo-
ple of England as to be convinced that they would not ac-
cuse their representatives of a want of sympathy with
their feeling, if it were made evident to them that the
mode proposed for their relief was not the best for their
interests.—(Cheers.)—Most, indeed all the speakers in
this debate had declared the state of the currency of the
country to be their main reason for seeking to go into a
Committee. They had said that the want of the 11. notes
was the cause of the distress. Now if they were to enter
into the discussion of that subject in the Committee, it was
necessary to see how the issue of 11. notes at present would
operate on the existing distress.—(Hear.)—Now it could
only operate by raising the price of commodities, and de-
preciating the standard of value. Then the exchanges
would turn against us, and a re-action, like that which
was witnessed in the year 1825, would take place, unless
we were prepared, which he hoped we were not, to tamper
ss'idth thetiea slightestni lar (i
hear.)—Any measure which
a
appearance of tampering with the
is t —lca r,
standard in a rich and commercial country like this was
fraught with imminent danger.—(Hear.)—lt was said,
"Oh ! but you will only make one alteration !" If
they made one alteration, bcw cotiM the public trust that

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