The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-12 00:00:00

CHURCH LEASES.

Mr. VERNON SMITH in rising to move the re-ap-
pointment of the Committee of last session on the sub-
ject of Church-leases, said the evidence which had
been taken before that Committee had been before
the House ever since the recess ; and the conclusion
which they had come to was that the Committee should
be re-appointed, in order to consider if further evidence
was necessary, or if sufficient evidence had already been
taken to citable them to make their report. The Hon.
Gentleman then moved that the s,imc gentlemen be ap-
pointed, as had constituted the Committeelast year.
Sir G. SI NC LAIR said he did not intend to object to the
re-aupoietment of the Con-anittee, but he thought it de-
sirable that the Church and the Dissenters—that the
House and the public—should know the specific result
which Ministers anticipated from the labours of the Com-
mittee. He knew that the specific okject was first to learn if,
by a different system of mana;ement as to the property
possesF.ed by tire Church—and a new arrangement between
the Church and its lessees, a surplus would accrue. But
the great object was to know what should be done with
the surplus, if any should be found. That was the
point on which the Church and Dissenters were at variance ;
although it might not be difficult to dissatisfy either, it
would not be ea=v to please both. The Church would
have no objection to the consideration of this subject, if it
was intended that the surplus should be appropriated to
purposes strictly Ecclesiastical, but tint stould not give
satisfaction to the Dissenters ; whereas, if it were intended
by the exputeel surplus, to relieve Dissenters from the
payment 'of Cict•ch•ratcs, the p-oceedings of the Corn-
mitt. e must be looked at by the friends of the Church
with anxiety and alarm. bocause if the 'principle were once
adopted, that because Dissenters derived no direct benefit
from the Church Establishm'•o.t, that then fore they need
not contribute to its support—they might just as well
be relieved from the support of the officiating Ministers.
lle would ask Ministers; therefore, in what way the an-
ticipated ru•plus was intended to be appropriated ?
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that question hal been
excluded from Vie consideration of the Contnitt which was
appointed to consider whether a surplus could be found,
not how it might be appropriated, and the question of the
lion. Member might more properly be put when the Re
port was presented. •

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, no doubt the question
would art-c, supposing the Committee were to report a
surplus derivable from any ne..v management of Church
property, as to what purpose it should be appropriated.
He begged leave to stats that the opinions he expressed
last year upon the subject he now retained, and that he
conceded no principle with-h he had then maintained. though
he did not now object to the re-appointment of the Com-
mittee. A condition had been proposed last Session to the
appointment of the Committee—that any surplus should
be applied exclusively to ecclesiastical purposes, but the
House had rejected that condition. Now, certainly, it
would be contrary to the usage of the House, and might
subject it to considerable inconvenience, to make any
lengthened observations on the mere question of the re-
appointment of a Committee which had already commenced
its operations ; but he could not hear of the Committee being
proposed without distinctly declaring, that to all the prin..
cipies which he had laid down he still adhered, and that
when the Committee shonld have made its report, if any
attempt should be made to divert any surplus from pur
poses purely ecclesiastical he should O'er it every opposi-
tion.--( Cheers from the Tories. )
Mr. BRISCO E was glad that the appointment of the
Committee had been moved for at the commencement of
the Session, because it was to be hoped that the report
might be made sufficien'ly early to bring in a Bill to carry
into effect the plan of her Majesty's Government for the
abolition of Church rates, and the substitution in their
stead of a fund arising from the improved value of eccle-
siastical property. This, he was aware, was not a fit occa-
sion to enter at large into this subject. but he wished to
take this opportunity of recording his firm and deliberate
opinion in favour of the measure already proposed by her
Majesty's Government. It was, in his humble judgment,
a measure which ought to be gladly hailed by every mem-
ber of the Established Church, because it would substitute,
in lieu of an uncertain, a fixed rource of revenue for the
maintenance of the fabric of the Church—because it
would tend to remove the fruitful cause of that dissension
and made which had so unhappily prevailed in so many
parishes, and also because it would relieve from the burden
of a local tax the poorer classes of society, who, in their
slender circumstances, could very ill afford to pay it.
The followinr, Committee was then appointed --Lord
John Russell, 'Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Vernon Smith, Mr.
Pusey, Mr. Lambtoa, Mr, Granville Vernon, Mr. Pease,
Mr. Childers, Mr. Baring Wall, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Gaily
Knight, Mr. Hector, Mr. Ingham, Mr. Solicitor-Gene-
ral, Lord Eliot, Mr. Baines, Mr. William Evans, Mr.
Hope Johnstone, Lord Viscount Saudon, Lord Viscount
Ebrington, Mr. Blake
CORN-LAWS.

Mr. G. W. WOOD said hebad given notice of a motion
for the production of a return regarding the average prices
of corn for the last five years, in order to show the great
fluctuations to which, under the existing system, corn had
t,een subjected. When this return was produced, he ap-
prehended it would appear that the price of wheat had
varied in the course cl last year, as much-as from 525. 4d.
per quarter, to 78s. 4&, making a difference of 50 per
cent. ; and that in December, 1835, the price was down as
low as 365. 8 i., being a difference between that rate and
the highest rate of last year, of no less than 113 per cent.
The use which he should make of this fact, was this, that
the existing system of the Corn-laws had not answered the
purpose for which they were avowedly intended, that the
professed object of these laws was to give stability of price
to the consumer, and preserve the farmer from a low price.
Now, he would contend that neither of these objects had
been answered, and on this ground alone an application
ought to be made to Parliament for their repeal. Ho re
gretted to bear the other night from the Right Honour-
able Baronet opposite (Peel) that he was of opinion that
it was not expedient at present to make any change with
respect to those laws. An intimation of that nature
coming from a gentleman of his extensive information, and
high standing in the House, could not fail of having great
weight with it, and was likely to affect materially the issue
of this question. He ( Mr. Wood) regretted, and great
numbers would regret the course the Right Hon. Baronet
had taken, because they imagined he would have taken a
different view of this subject from the interest he felt in
the welfare of the Empire, and from his own former con-
nection with the manufactures of this country. It was to
be regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet should be satis-
fied to rest his objection on the circumstance to which ho
then adverted, viz., that our manufacturing industry had
recovered from the convulsion to which it had been ex-
posed by the commercial difficulties of the year 1837.
He was not aware of any more facts of difficulties being
overcome arising from the occupation given to our manu-
facturing population, and he would say nothing arising
out of these circumstances, as bearing upon the Corn-
laws. He did not, in an observation he had made on a
former night, raise any argument from what he bad than
mentioned, bearing on the Corn-law question, for he was
then merely speaking on the connection between the facts
he had adverted to and the laws of the country, arid not as
bearing on the Corn-laws. After having heard an obser-
vation from the Right lion. Baronet, on which he had
been precluded from offering any remark, he saw that_ the
same conclusions we're to be drawn in connect:o9 with the
Corn-laws, upon which these facts had a most important
bearing. He had then mentioned that in 1838 there was
an excess of the exports from this country, but
he had not drawn any conclusion whether he thought that
circumstance favourable or unfavourable to the continu-
ance of the Corn-laws, but on looking iiito that statement
he found it to have a most important bearing on that sub-
ject. There was an excess in the exports that year to the
amount of three millions of pounds, but in that excess
were included one hundred and fifty-eight thousand pounds,
which arose from the article of sheep' wool, which had
net afforded employment to our population, 608,000/. of
iron and steel, and 204,0001. of copper and brass.
There was in the excess adverted to 1,375,0001 on
those commodities, on which a .ery small quantity indeed
of the labour of our population had been bestowed. The
next branch under which the excess arose was in yarns;
there was an excess in the export of that article to the
amount (we understood) of 854,000/. When he came
to manufactured articles, and saw how the excess stood,
he found that the amount was greatest on those articles on
which the least labour was derived to our manufacturing
population ; the excess in articles that required such la-
bour amounted to 92 p2r cent., while in yarns it amounted
to 80 per cent. On hardware the amount was only about
30 per cent. While the excess in those articles on which
little labour hail been bestowed was increasing, that upon
those on which more labour was required was proportionably
diminishing. These facts tended strongly to show that the
manufactures of other countries were increasing and increas-
ing rapidly. They had been carrying on the process of
Legislation in order to draw front us, and they were now
able to supply themselves without receiving anything front
us. Now, it would hardly be contended by the Right
lion. Bart. that this state of things had no connection
with the Corn laws. Berme looking into these laws, he
should look into the state of our manufactures, and he
would find they were in a very depressed state. lie should
consider the Corn-laws not in any other light than as
bearing on the labouring population of this country, and if
something were not done soon it would be too late to do
anything to recover our lost ground. No man can
.de,
the increasing, consumption for the great staple artic.es.
We could not, however, shut our eyes to the fact that
.11
similar increase was going on .in other countries, R,SI-
milar disposition in them to increase their !tianutee.
tures and to establish anything in their countries which
would appear to give them an advantage which really
existed, for furnishing other countries with the pro_
duce of their labouron the elicaprst terms.
The fact was that competition was corni,lained of by all
our merchants and manufacturers. It was found that
amongst our oldest connections were to be found those
who were giving great encouragement to the pro<sress of
mannufactures amongst themselves, and were not only
able to supply themselves, but were sending their surplus
produce to remote markets, at which at former times we
were the sole s.uppliers, and they were enabled to do this
from, the super for cheapness at which they could purchase
tood. It was not surprising, therefore, that there should
be alarm for the security of our trade amongst our inanti-
faetyrers, for they were now meeting w i
ill competition n
their own mark-ts from those whose markets they used
to supply.__( Hear, hear.) By our system of ex.
elusiveness with respect to the corn trade we ex-
cluded the timber of Prussia and gave her hostile
feelings against us, which she had used by employ-

ing her influence in the north of Germany, totally to ex-
clude our manufacturesTrom those markets. tineir policy
was to give encouragement to the admission of our yarns,
to the total exclusion of piece goods, which trade was, in
a great measure, now annihilated. We had proceeded in
the same course with respect to America—first, our goods
were admitted at a duty of 121 per cent. that duty was
then raised to 25 per cent. on the simple ground that we
excluded their produce from our ports. Mr. Addington
expressly stated to Mr. Canning upon the occasion, that
neither house of Congress would have agreed to the rail-
ing of the duty had it sot been that this country prohibited
the introduction of their corn. If other countries can
produce their food at a cheaper rate than we
can they must certainly beat us in the race. It ape
peered almost a miracle that our trade should, under
present circumstances, be acknowledgedly on the increase,
and that such complaints should still be made, but still
that was no reason for refusing the inquiry which was de-
manded by so many cf the psople of this country. For
himself, he believed those laws were not at all necessary
for the advaetage of the agriculturalists themselves. By
tie renewal of thsse laws they would experience scarcely
any char:gn to their disadvantage, and when the subject
came regularly before the ileum he hoped they would
give it their best consideration, and to•ally repeal these
laws, by which they would give a great stimulus to the
manufacturing industry cf the country. He would con
dial!), support the prayer cf the petition, which called
upon the House to hear evidence at the bar. He then
moved for a " Return of tke Prices of Wheat, as inserted
in the Royal Gazette, foi•every week in the year 183 e ;
and a similar Return fur each of the four preceding years ;
the whole arranged in corresponding columns."
Sir ROBERT PEEL had not the slight, at ob;ection to
the motion of the Honourable Member. It was quite
natural for the Honourable Gentleman to make the attemet
—a most unsuccessful one it was true—to do away with
the impressions which had been made, not only upon iris
own mind, but on that of every one who had read his
speech when seconding the Address. It clearly showed
that the manufacturing interests of this country
were improving and greatly on the increase. It was quite
natural that the Honourable Gentleman should wish to se t
himself right with parties out of doors, but however williee
he (Sir R. P.) could not allow him to do so at his expellee..
It was quite natural that he should wish to set himself
right, because if the Presidency of the Chamber of Com-
merce of Manchester was an elective one Ire might stand a
chance of being ousted. He had no doubt that when the
lion. Member was passing the northern corner of Palace_
yard he might meet with looks not the meet pleasant to iris
feelings —( Laughter.) No doubt, the lion. Member
might wish to set himself right with all those parties, but
still he (Sir. R. Peel) could not afford that it should he
done at his expense. Ever since 1828 and 1829 he 111,1
ueif onnly stated that in his opinion it was for the interest of
the country—for Ihe interests of both agriculturists and
manufacturers—that the public mind should not be agitated
upon the subject of the Corn-laws, and that they should
adhere to the present system.—( Hear.) He had ex-
pected that it would have been proved, or attempted
t 9 have been ',roved that the shipping interest
—that the internal interests of the country, were much
less prosperous now than they had been ; but on the first
night of the Session his mind was greatly relieved when
he heard from the seconder of the Address—from the Pre-
sident of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce—first,
that the manufacturing interest was advancing and prospe
roes; second, that the shipping interest was in a state of
rising and growing prosperity; and, thirdly, that the inter-
nal trade of the country was more prosperous than it hind
been for some time—his mind was perfectly relieved to hear
such statements from so high an authority. The agmicultem
ral interest were perfectly satisfied with the laws ns they
stood—all trades being prosperous in tine country,
eh), then should any alteration be called for?
The Hon. Member had said, referring to commerce,
"there had been two years of great distress in all branches
of trade, and he was glad to hear this state of things had
passed away, and that commerce at present was in a
satisfactory condition." He (Sir R. Pee]) assn thought
he heard the Hon. Member say that he did not reeollect
any former period of commercial embarrassment which wes
so quickly succeeded by a healthy state of commerce._
( Hear, bear.) He thought the Hon. Gentlerral went on
to any that, with respect to front fourteen to twenty imper-
tent articles, to which our manufacturing industry was di-
rected, there had been a great increase.
Mr. WOOD here interrupted, saying (we believe) that
those articles were rot those in which a great quantity of
labour was cineloyed.
Sir R. PEEL did not think the Honourable Member
bed then made this distinction as to manufactures into
which manual labour entered to any considerable extent,
but he thought he heard the Honourable Member state that
with reefer(' to linen, far instance, there hal been Inn in-
crease of 19 per cent., that in respect of silk there had l' en
an increase of 24 per cent., and he thought be heard thellen.
Gentleman state that, upon the general average, there had
been an increase of 7i per cent. in 1838, al compared with
the average of the four preceding years. True, the
Honourable Member now said, that it was not fair
to say that because there had been an impreve-
raent in 1838 as compared with 1837, that that
n as in its' If a sufficient proof of commercial
prosperity, but it was quite impossible that be (Sir R.
Peel) could have used such an argument. The lion.
Member himself had said that be would take four years as
a fir criterion, and that the years 1634, 1635, 1836, and
1837, be compared with the progressive increase of 1838.
(Hear, hear.) Then, as to shipping, the Hon. Member
had said, that his attention bed been directed to that sub-
ject, and that he was happy to be able to lay before the
House particulars respecting that subject, showing that
our shipping interests were in a most flourishing condition,
and rapidly extending._( Hear. hear.) Now, hearing all
this, he (Sir R. Peel) thought it waesnot at all unnatural,
that he should caution the House against listening to
the agitation for the repeal of a system so mate-
rially involved with - our manufacturing iutercsts—
namely, the Corn-laws-- when the opponents of that
s)steni themselves admitted that the commerce and
manufactures of this country were in a comparatively
flourishing condition—( Hear, hear,)—and he thought that
he was using a perfectly fair and just argument ; ahctbar
the Hon. Member was correct in his calculations, he ( Sir
R. Peel) would not now question, as he thought this a
most inconvenient time to discuss the subject of the Corn
laws.—( Hear, hear.) His object was to show that on the
first night of the Session, he had said nothing upon the
speech of the lion. Member, which that speech had not
wareanted. It was quite probable, that a little pardonable
vanity in showing tine House that ho was in rossession of
information, to the rest of the House unknown, might have
induced the Hon. Member to go further in these state-
ments, than clearer judgment would have dictated._.
( Laughter, and Hear, bear.) lie was sorry that
the Honourable Member had been led into such a
mistake; but it was not sufficient now for the Hon. Mem-
ber to guard himself with qualifications, for, unfortunately,
it was not the arguments, but the statements of the Pres-i.
dent of the Chamber of Commerce which (Sir R. Peel)
had quoted—statements which had left upon his mind the
same impression as they had left upon the opponents of
the Corn-laws, viz., that the lion. Member considering
his talent, his' experience, his station, and his character,
had done mono to support the present system of Corn_
laws than qny other man living.—( Laughter, and Hear,
bear.) That testimony was unexpected from the lion.
Member; but he (Sir R. Peel) gladly received it r s hoe
nest and unsoph sticated—( A laugh)—and the Ho.
nourable Member might depend upon this, that
while those statements remained incontrovert
and uncontradicted, all the motions which the Hon. Mem_
ber might subsequently make about the price of corn—all
the explanations he might give—all the arguments ho
night offer, would be perfectly ineffectual to remove the
impression which those statements had created on the
minds of any men not committed upon the question_..
namely, that the interests of manufactures and of agri-
culture were inseparably connected ; that manufactures
could not flourish without agriculture improving, just
agriculture could not be benefited without advancing
the
simultaneous prosperity of manufactures—(Meat., hear)
and that those whose minds might have been influenced
by the statements that manufactures were depressed—
that the shipping interests were suffering, and that the in •
ternal trade was inn a state of decay, would be convinced
manufactures were in a state of comparative prosperity—
that the shipping interests were rapidly advancing—and
that the internal trade was, in elasticity and strength
of resources, quite sufficient to remove those gloomy
apprehensions which might heretofore have been enter •
tained.—( Hear, hoar, bear.)
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS would entreat Hon. Members
opposite not to come to the conclusion so hastily, which
they had done, that because our exports during the last
year assumed the aspect stated, it followed as a matter of
course that upon every article exported a profit had been
reaped, or that the manufacturer was necessarily in a
prosperous condition.—(Hear, hear.) lie did not mean
ißuatrhoenetmhi,:rid,
to enter, any more than the Right Hon.
into a general discuseion on the Corn-iaw_se,,
importa'
tt
cdou'ld, if net'
be allowed to advert to an article
Hofe
to them whom he represent.
in the t ale
entioned by nears_tiKLall'oluse but it wes
slalToutra'aincleh 11.1-aberanyfor
statement he had laid before the l-
, to one
tention to canting observations
Theresolely ere greatgentlemeerin
article,a
ob-
ject—the article of cotton twist.
great interests in the country,
ground, by speaking
and Ile would not trespass on their
the Howe representing
with other b
d circumstances, connected
facts other
manufacture. w
...ire an respect, however, to the Ine in,
n from the fact of that increased e
crease in the exportation of cotton twist, whatever condo..
sion might be same',
his own constm
x.
portation,
h t his own impression onthe 1;
it was only duo to himself and
subject vv.
taints to state w .als;
and
the satisfaction of knowing. that he was speaking
in thehepir'aspeakings
presence of Members on the other side of the House,n,
called on to represent interests similar to those he repro_
v e el
seated—gentlemen practically acquainted with the? dill
branches r,f cotton manufacture—and if anything should ken
from him of an extorted stature, he hoped they would set hinn
ri,,ht. With respect to the increased exportation of cotton
twist, tine conclusion he (Mr. M. Phillips) came to w"this,
that instead of seeing any thing cheering, ac drew et):l_
clusians from it far from satisfactory.— ( Hear.) it
was
well known, and indeed was stated by the lion. mmhi,r
for Kendal in seconding the Address, that we had suffered
the ,ireatvst possible disruption of credit, and had suffeepi
e
from tine suspension of trade in the United States in l 817:
1 We had consequently lost in the American market a de,
country
end it was not to be supposed that the manufacturers of
maned for cotton manufactured goods from this
Manchester were disposed to supply further goods to meinh
who were then fn their debt. What, therefore, Was
tine
position of the spinner? He was reduced to this dilemma •
he found that under all circumstances it was better for hie;
to continue his machinery in operation than to permit
it
' to lie still.
therefore
r sang;eftnr!
It was a practically admitted fact that is
h,„ was greater if he allowed his machinery to stand
I still than if he went on working it. He was
I compelled to go on, and was producing twist in
quantities as in the preceding year, but he failed in firwi,
a market for that manufacture. The merchant otig
tire
Manchester Exchange was not to be found as a purchaser,
from the circumstance that he had lost his customer in the
United States, but was driven to export property to tine
truount of 1,400,0001. sterling; might it not happen that
his property could not be disposed of without a great loss a
' year ago? However, he would bind himself to say that if

two years. It was utterly impossible for the Noble Lord
to show that nineteen miles had been built during the last
two years in the whole county of Lancaster. Previous to
ks 36 there was a period of prosperity, and then it was
that these factories were built, or contracted for. With
respect to trade at the present moment, he was perfectly
aware that it was in a state of the deepest depression,
and he was quite sure that a great portion of the twist
had been exported at a very considerable loss. He trusted
that the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) would meet
them in the spirit of fairness upon the Corn.laws, and
that he would not upset them upon the question merely
because the Hon. Member for Kendal had made a speech
which, though it stated facts, still concealed part of them.
Sir H. FLEETWOOD, as his name had been intro-
duced into the discussion, would take the liberty of stating
that the Noble Lord opposite had not stated him quite
fairly. He had not only stated to the Noble Lord that it
was requisite to enter into arrangements for the building
of factories long before they were commenced, but he had
also stated that during the last year there had been no
addition whatever.--( Hear, hear.) He was leaving town
to-morrow for the purpose of attending a large meeting at
Preston. He trusted to be in his place when the discus-
sion of the Corn-law question came on, and he would
then be prepared to answer the Noble Lord upon the
subject.
Mr. G. W. WOOD thought himself entitled to com-
plain of something like a perversion of the statements
which he had made the other night. In reference to
his statement of the actual result of exports, the
Right Honourable Baronet opposite had drawn a conclusion
from the averages, and considered that as applicable to
the whole in detail, which was a position that was not at
all warranted by the statement. He thought it would have
been easy to have shown that the great increase of exports
had not been in manufactured goods, but of raw materials
such as yarn, and so on, for the purpose of being manu-
factured abroad. The increase was not of one year but of
more. The Right Hon. Baronet also imputed to him
some observations which it was supposed he had made in
reference to the banking system. All that he had said
was, that there was great distress prevailing among ma-
nufacturers, and that he considered a great deal of that
was owing to the system of the Bank of England; but
further than that he had said nothing about either
banks in this country or America. With regard to cha-
racter of the Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce
of Manchester, he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that
nobody would be more pleased than himself, to see that
office pass into younger hands. The information he was
laying before the House, he laid before the House in the
hope that it would be useful, and it was for the House to
take it for better or for worse ; and it was certainly no
answer to the petitioners, who asked for the repeal of the
Corn-laws, to refer them to the tables to which they had
been referred.
The motion was then put and agreed to.
Mr. WALLACE stated, that as he now under-
stood it was the intention of Mr. Speaker, to adhere to
the rule which had been acted upon during the last Session
in reference to the presentation of petitions ; and as in
truth the subject of his petition from Pollockshaws in fa-
vour of the repeal of the Corn-laws had already been dis-
cussed, he should not persist in the motion of which he had
given notice.
Mr. BA INES moved for a return of the quantity of
bonded corn abandoned by the importers in the port of
London in the year 1837, and destroyed, which he,thought
would show the necessity of having a repeal of the Corn-
laws. Why he made this motion was in consequence of a
fact which had reached his ears, and which he believed to
be well authenticated, that 1,000 quarters of corn had
been imported from Odessa in 1831 into this country, which,
owing to the state of the Corn-laws, lay in bond till 1837 ;
that the persons who were the owners of it in 1837 made
an application to Government to have it liberated from
bond, which was allowed on condition that it should be
sunk in the Thames ; and that 1,000 quarters of corn were
actually sunk in the Thames.—( Hear, hear.) Surely that
was a state of the Corn-laws which could not be satisfac-
tory to this country.—( Hear, hear.) If there had been a
small duty to have been paid upon it, there could have been
no doubt that it would have been paid and the wheat sold ;
but in consequence of the high rate of duty, it had lain in
bond until it had become so deteriorated, that it was not
worth the duty demanded for it ; therefore, as an act of
grace and favour on the part of Government, the owner was
allowed to take it out of bond, and to sink it in the Thames I
That circumstance took place when the great distress was
prevailing in the Highlands of Scotland ; and surely it
would have been far better that that 1,000 quarters of
wheat should have been sent to the perishing Highlanders,
than it should have been thus wastefully destroyed. How
many other quarters had been dealt with in a similar man-
ner, it was impossible for him to say.
Motion agreed to.
Mr. FOX MA UL E moved for leave to bring in a Bill
for further improving the police in and near the metropolis.
The principal object of the Bill was to extend the present
police force into the city and other parts of the metropolis.
When this police force was first established the Right Hon.
Baronet was fully justified in limiting the experiment as he
had done ; but from the experience of the working of that
system there could be now no doubt that the system ought
to be extended over London. There were other amend-
meats in the Bill, but which be should abstain from
detailing, as it was a Bill to which Members would have
to give great attention. It was one of two Bills to be
brought before the House, having for their object a distinc
tion from the judicial and the executive of the police
CoL SIBT H 0 RP hoped it was to include the horse
patrol?

evidence was to be examined at the bar of that House that
his statements would be established by facts, and arguments
not very easily to be controverted, he would be bound to
say that that evidence would show that the manufacturers
had been compelled from their large stock to export their
articles, and that thus the foreign market had been glutted,
and the operations of the spinner rendered useless ; in short.
he drew conclusions exactly opposite to those drawn by the
Members opposite. He regretted that the Hon. Member
did not make these statements on the first night of the Ses-
siore it would have placed the state of the measure
in a much clearer light than that in which it now appeared
to be regarded by' Honourable Members opposite.
There was one other subject to which he wished to allude,
and that was the increase which had taken place in the ex-
port of some of the metals. He did not agree with some
Hon. Gentlemen in the extent to which they went as to
the exportations of iron. It would be found on investiga-
tion that a considerable portion of the increased export
was in the shape of iron rails for railways. As regarded
the other portions which had gone for the purpose of fur-
nishing our opponents on the Continent with the means of
manufacturing machinery, he did not hesitate to say, if he
could separate the portion of the increase applied to that
object, he should deplore to see an increase in that he which
was perfectly convinced was intended to be converted into
purposes which would ultimately prove detrimental to us.
He had presented a petition from the Chamber of Com-
merce at Manchester, signed by the Hon. Member for
Kendal (Mr. Wood), and if any individual in the House
thought that his Hon. Friend differed in opinion from
the manufacturers at Manchester, they did him great in-
justice. Before he sat down he begged to refer Hon. Members
opposite to some of the allegations of the petition. They
particularly directed the attention of Parliament to the fact
that foreign competition at this moment had arrived at such
a pitch, with respect to cotton hosiery, that this country
only exported one-fourth of that which was exported by the
Saxon manufacturers themselves, and that we had
scarcely any hold of the markets of the United
States, three-fourth, of which were supplied by
the Saxon manufacturers. He earnestly entreated the
attention of Hon. Members opposite to the inqui-
ties which must be made, to the extent to which machi-
nery was carried on the Continent—manufactured, as the
petitioners stated, from the most recent improvements in-
troduced into this country, placing the foreigner in this po-
sition, that he could take advantage at once of all the im-
provements at which the manufacturers of this country had
arrived step by step. They did not therefore meet us on
fair grounds. The importance of the subject was such,
that he hoped and trusted that it would be debated with
calmness and deliberation. Ho trusted Hon. Members
would see the necessity, in a question which occupied so
much of the public attention, of sifting it with the utmost at-
tention, and he trusted they would not refuse to receive evi-
dence at the bar of the House in support of the petitions.—
( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BA/NES begged to offer an observation or two as
to the state of the woollen manufactures.—( Hear, hear.)
In 1838 as compared with the four preceeding years, there
was a decrease in the quantity of exports to the amount of
385,0001, and that year had been represented as one of
prosperity.—( Hoar, hear.) In Saxony, and other parts of
the Continent, the woollen manufacturers were gaining
ground, and the effect was to produce upon that ancient
manufacture of this country, once so important, but now a
declining manufacture--declining, he sincerely believed,
from the existence of the Corn-laws, because we
could not enter into competition with those who
manufactured this article on the Continent of Europe.
With respect to the exportation of wool, it might be
thought there was an advantage towards this country, but
when it was considered that it was exported for the pur-
pose of nurturing and bringing up rival manufactures, in-
stead of that being a matter of congratulation, it ought to
be a matter of deep regret ; because on comparing the four
years preceding 1838, there had been an increase in the
export of our sheep and lambs' wool to no less an amount
than 57 per cent., there having been, on averaging these
four years, in the former instance 37.1,0004 , and in the last
year the export was 432,0001. ; so that, although it had been
represented by his Hon. Friend that there had been an in-
.crease of exports, in reality that increase was, so far as re.
lated to the manufactures of the country, a dis-
advantage, and not an advantage. There was another
subject to which he might shortly advert—that formerly at
the German wool fair the English were the great pur-
chasors—lately the English had been only third-rate pur-
chasers. Why was this? Because the English manu-
facturers were decreasing while the Continental
manufacturers were increasing. No subject could
be more clearly demonstrated than that the ex-
ports of this country indicated rather decay than pros-
perity, particularly in the export of raw materials.
He would also state to the House another fact,
that in the Leipsic fair, for the four years before the German
Commercial League was formed, the quantity of woollen
cloth exhibited for sale, was 50,000 ells, about 25,000
pieces. In the last year the quantity of woollen cloths
exhibited for sale, and manufactured in Germany, was
350,000, making an increase of somewhere about 600 per
cent. Now, these were not facts made to support a parti-
cular theory, but they were facts which related to the decay
, of our manufactures, and that decay arising out of the cir-
cumstances of the taxes on some articles being from 60 to
70 per cent., higher here than on the manufactures of the
Continent. He did,not know what weight the House
might choose to give to these facts. He believed
them to be facts, and had the best authority for
his statements for where he could possess himself of
official information he had always done so. With respect
to the statements of his Honourable Friend the Member for
Kendal, he (Mr Baines) must admit that there was no-
thing very unfair in the Right Honourable Baronet ( Sir
Robert Peel) making the statement which he had done,
as founded on the representation of the Honourable Gen-
tleman. He (Mr Baines) thought it was very natural
that an advocate for another view of the subject should
have made that statement, but it was clear that though
there might be a general prosperity, taking the aggregate
of all our exports, there might be a decrease with regard to
our manufacturing prosperity. In order to sustain that
view he had ventured to present these facts to the House;
he hoped the House would not agree to the conclusion at
which the Right Honourable Baronet had somewhat
hastily arrived—conclusions which he would not have come
to if he analyzed those extracts with more care.—(Hear.)
Lord STANLEY said it seemed rather singular, not
that the Hon. Member for Kendal (Mr. Wood) had come
down with a vindication of his former statement, but that
other lion. Members should be prepared with figures for
the purpose of entering into a discussion of the whole
state of our manufactures upon such sqn occasion as this.
He (Lord Stanley) was not going to enter into
any detail or into the general merits of the ques-
tion, which was of such immense importance. He
did not pretend to have any acquaintance with that branch
of industry to which the Honourable Gentleman who
had just sat down particularly referred—the woollen
trade. But it was amongst the singular and happy coinci.
deuces accompanying the speech of the Hon. Member for
Kendal that here again he had furnished a valuable weight
of authority, to meet, as it were, by anticipation, the
statement of the Honourable Member for Leeds, be-
cause the Honourable Member for Kendal did net
omit to state that there was a considerable decrease
in the export of woollen manufactured goods. But,
said the Hon. Member for Kendal in the spirit of fairness
that characterised all his statements, whether in favour of
his arguments or not—( Hear, hear)—" don't let the
House be led away by these statements ; true it was that
the woollen manufacture had decreased, but that was no
indication that the woollen trade was in a state of difficulty
—still less was it to be attributed to the bearings of the
Corn-laws. No, said the Hon. Member for Kendal, the
woollen manufactures have decreased, and I tell you why,
there has beer, a vicious system of banking in the United
States ; there has been great distress in America, the Ame-
ricans ale our great consumers for woollen goods, and it has
not been distress here, or the difficulty of supplying them
but the vice of the banking system have rendered it im-
possible for them to take our goods." (Mr. Wood made
some remark, which was not heard in the gallery.) He
oio
h(iLsor tanle ) begged pardon if he had misrepresented
H
eriend. He had quoted from memory, not
having had any intention of entering on this part of the
question at all ; but the Hon. Gentleman was reported to
have said, with regard to the woollen manufactures, there
has been a decline of six cent. ; a circumstance entirely
attributable to the very large portion of our woollen manu-
factures sent to the United States, and that country not
being able to take in so large a quantity as in previous
years, there was a depression which, he had no doubt,
would be removed during the present year.—( Cheers.)
The Hon. Member for Leeds had stated it as a subject of
great lamentation, that there had been an increase of the
export of British wool to the amount of 5$ per cent. He
(Lord Stanley) would ask, was it a subject of congratula-
tion, that since the year 1831 the import of foreign wool—
the raw material for our manufacture—had not increased
58 per cent., but in the port of Liverpool had increased
1,200 per rent. ? In the year 1831 4,000 bags were im-
ported ; that quantity went on increasing from 4 to 8,
from 8 to 24, from 24 to 48, until, in the year 1338, it
amounted to 50,000 bags of the raw material introduced
for our manufactures —(Loud cheers from the Tory
benches.) It was possible that the manufacturers might
have been going on at a less during the last two years—
it was possible such might be the case, but it was
scarcely credible that the country should not know of it.
It was incredible that the manufacturing interest was so
depressed, while, during the last two years so much capi-
tal had been expended in mills and machinery.--( Hear.)
He was informed by an Hon. Baronet who sat on the other
side of the House, that, in the town of Preston alone, there
there had been nineteen mills erected during the last two
Years, That made requisite the erection of 1,500 houses
for the workmen employed in those mills ; and one of
th°se factories alone cost the sum of 60,0001. before a
ogle portion of work could be done in it. If this was
Chefact, or anything approaching to it, it was incredible
dt, in one town alone, during the two years of notorious
ill3t.reas, capitalists were to be found willing to embark
lr money in the same cause.—(Cheers.) He begged
pardone for having been so far led into the question, but
3111,ments having been made on the other side, he was
anxious the House should be put in possession of these facts.
Mr. CL A Y—The Noble Lord bad commented upon
the speech of the Hon. Member for Kendal (Mr. G. W.
en°°ZWo) with his usual dexterity, but not with his usual fair-
.lShe understood the Hon. Member rightly, he did not
is th,° his explanation deny there had been a great increase
that frrports of the country, but he explained it by stating
fording r 4 the nature of the things exported, in place of af-
alarm
bgrounds for hope, they afforded grounds for great
taken cause abr
use the export was cotton twist, which was
e
the repeal ad to be there woven up. The main ground for
are
of of the Corn-laws was the fact of the great in-
peting ae rn
laanufactures abroad. They were already co-
e
protecting d in foreign markets, but even with a heavy
in our° uty they were enabled now to compete with us
to haggl:market. He knew that it was very dangerous
were bound tPo
on the ground of the want of profit. They
foiind that capital that there was some profit, when they
But he woul was being further sunk into any business.
d ask the Noble Lord (Stanley) whether those
factories were not built for the u
twist for the Purposeof . Purpose of spinning the
Mr. HiNI,. being sent abroad ?
Y—The -Hon. Memberfacteri efeorwthereeTbuowilte;
Hamlets had asked for what them!
The fact was, they had not been built at all during the last

from Asia and Africa within the Mediterranean and with-
out the Mediterranean, and the clause which he introduced
last year into the Customs Bill, was to enable an Order in
Council to allow the ships of any European country to
bring into the ports of this country laden not only with its
own commodities, but the produce of Asiatic and African
countries, This, however, was only empowered to be done
as to countries in which equivalent advantages were grant-
ed to British commerce by the country to which the pri-
vilege was extended, and this had been done with regard
to Austria. In return for the extended advantages which
we had gained from Austria, we bad granted to Austria a
very moderate privilege.

Mr. FOX MAULE said it was.
Col. SIBTHORP said that when the Bill came to
be discussed be should suggest the propriety of increasing
the pay of that body of men. At Liverpool, Bristol, and
other large places, they were better paid than in London. He
objected to the deduction of 2s. a-week from the pay of the
men for their clothes. He was a great friend to economy,
but still he should recommend an increased pay to those
men, who often suffered, not only the greatest insults, but
whose lives were put in the greatest jeopardy.
Sir R. PEEL (as we understood) apprehended the ob-
ject of the Bill would be to extend as far as possible the
present police system of the metropolis?
Mr. FOX M AUL E said that was an expressed feature
of the Bill.
Sir R. PEEL—And to apply to the River police? ,
Mr. F. MAULE—Yes.
Sir R. PEEL thought he might conclude now that it
was not for the purpose of introducing an arbitrary system
that he bad originated this force.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought the only persons who had to complain of the
police system were the rogues and thieves.—(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) He believed that this system was almost
universally adopted throughout the great towns in Eng-
land, and he had every reason to believe that experience o f
it gave universal satisfaction. There could be no doubt
that it has been one of the most effectual means of check-
ing the progress of crime.
Lord MORPETH bore testimony to the beneficial ef-
fects of the New Police system.
Mr. SHAW said that the system had worked well in
Dublin, but not so well in the neighbourhood of that City.
MR. D. W. HARVEY.
Mr. FOX MAULE laid upon the table the corre-
spondence relative to the appointment of Mr. Harvey as
Registrar of Hackney-coaches.
THE AUSTRIAN TREATY.
Lord PALMERSTON, in laying before the House
Papers relative to the Austrian Treaty, said that the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had on a former occasion ap-
peared to have been under the misapprehension that this
treaty was substantially the same as that of 1828, whereas
they differed very considerably. The Treaty of 1819
established a reciprocity of navigation between the two
countries, with the important exception of the ports on the
Danube, which the present Treaty included. This Treaty
also admitted Austrian ships to bring to British
ports articles the produce of Asiatic er African
countries, and these articles to be taken from Austrian
ports by British ships ; whereas, by the Treaty of 1829,
the Austrian vessel would not have bNn permitted to bring
to an English port articles from Austria, the produce not
of Austria, but of Asia and Africa. This Treaty permitted
British ships to export from all the ports of the Danube,
as well Turkish as Austrian, and simultaneously, there
had been effected a great change in the commercial sys-
tem of the empire of Austria, for whereas, hitherto, the
principle of the Austrian tariff had been prohibition, with
only exceptions in favour of certain articles, the Austrian
Government had now changed their system and substituted
one of admission on all occasions at greatly reduced duties,
and thus the Austrian Government had taken a more en-
lightened course in the treaty, and a very important change
had been effected in the fiscal regulations of the country;
so that he (Lord Palmerston) considered that the treaty
had opened a great field for the industry and commercial
enterprise of this country. and at the same time he had the
satisfaction of reflecting that the change had also been
most beneficial both to the commerce of Austria and
Turkey. The country was much indebted to the zeal
and ability with which their Ambassadors at Vienna and
Constantinople had conducted the long and difficult nego-
tiations which, in a question of this kind, affecting esta-
blished prejudices, and involving extensive interests,
must naturally arise, and be was bound to say, that not
only Lord Ponsonby and Sir Frederick Lamb, but Mr.
Bulwer and Mr. AP Gregor—the former at Constantinople,
the latter at Vienna—had rendered, on this subject, great
service to their country.
Sir R. PEEL said he did not mean to throw any dis-
paragement on the Austrian or the Turkish Treaty. With
regard to the latter, he only feared that there might be
difficulty in carrying it or t, not through the fault of the
Treaty, but from the present position of the Turkish Em-
pire. With regard to the Austrian Treaty, he was aware
that it went further than that of 1829; but what he had
said was, that it did not establish a new principle, the prin-
ciple having been conceded in the Treaty of, 1829, though,
from the improvements in the steam navigation of the
Danube, an extended operation might naturally be ex-
pected. He wished to ask the Noble Lord if he did not
anticipate that in some of the ports in Wallachia there
would not be some difficulty in carrying out the Treaty
without Turkish co-operation?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the Treaty provided
that neither an Austrian nor a British vsesel might be ad-
mitted into the ports of either country, corning from a
Turkish port of the Danube, as though coming from a port
of Austria or England—that is, a British vessel corning
from a Turkish port in the Danube would be admitted
into an Austrian port, and vice versa.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know if it might not be in the
power of Turkey to place such restrictions on the naviga-
tion of the Danube as would interfere with the operation
of the Treaty in that respect ?
Lord PALMERSTON said he did not anticipate that
Turkey would be inclined to take such a step.
Mr. HE R.RIE S said, under the old Navigation Laws no
Austrian vessel could come to a British port with other than
Austrian commodities; but, last Session, an Act was in-
troduced, by which this clause in the ancient Navigation
Acts was repealed ; that was a very important fact ; and
the question he had to ask was, whether, under that new
Act, all nations had not a right to the same privileges as
Austria had gained by this particular treaty; that is, to
bring into the ports of this country vessels laden with the
produce of Asia and Africa.

Mr. P. THOAISON said a distinction had always ex-
isted in the Navigation Laws between articles coming

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY,-EVENING EDITION,-FEBRUARY 12, 1839.

were printed. I begged to ask, when I found that a
change bad taken place in the resolution of Government,
and that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Ministers
to present these papers on the night of the assembling of Par-
liament—l then begged to put that question to the Noble
Lord, which, together with the answer, is already before
your Lordships. On my return home that night, I found
the following communication from her Majesty's Se-
cretary of State, which—as it is a public one—l
will venture to read to the House..—( Hear, hear. )
The letter is dated Downing-street, sth February, 1839,
and is signed " Glenelg." The Noble Earl then read the
letter, which was in substance as follows :—" My Lord, I
have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your
Lordship's letter of the 31st ultimo, transmitting your
Report, as her Majesty's High Commilsioner, on the
affairs of British North America. Having had the honour
of laying the Report before the Queen, I am directed
to express her Majesty's approbation of the attention
you have devoted to this important subject, and the
full and comprehensive views of the various interests
involved in it. I need not tell your Lordship that
the report will receive the attentive consideration of
her Majesty's Government. On a matter of such
grave importance, in the absence of the appendix, I am
unable to express any opinion of the matter therein contained.
Her Majesty's Government will, however, take it into their
immediate consideration, and I hope it will lay
the founda-
tion of the permanent settlement of the interests in-
volved in your communication."—( Hear, hear.) My
Lords, it was not till, after the receipt of that letter—
it was not till after I received this official communication
—that I confidentially communicated that Report to any
other party. But I did conceive, having laid that
Report before her Majesty's Government, and it having re-
ceived their approbation—l did conceive that I was at
liberty to communicate it to my friends. That isall I know
of the
transaction,an
dlbeg most distinctly to repel the
sort ofwhich has been made, as if I
were
responsible or accessory to
the publication of that report ; and this becomes
the more necessary, because it appears from
in
insinuationanydegree
or charge
the statement of the Noble Earl, that that
charge was founded upon a complete misrepresentation
of the paragraph which appeared in the paper in question.
I was not so much suprised at that publication, as grieved
that only the latter portion of the report had been pub-
lished. But, my Lords, if it be true that upwards of
2,000 copies were ready on Tuesday, can it be wondered at
that some one of these should have found its way to the pub-
lic ?Be that as it may, merely distributed three or four,
or it may be half a dozen copies confidentially among my
friends, after having received the official communication
that her Majesty had been graciously pleased to receive it.
My Lords, that is all I have to say, and I think myself ex-
tremely obliged to the Noble Earl for having given me an
opportunity of doing that which otherwise I should not be
enabled to do.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE thanked the Noble Lord for
his explanation, at the same time he could not reconcile
the Noble Lord's statement with the expression of his sur-
prise.
The Earl of DURHAM—My Lords, I don't know
upon what grounds the Noble Earl has refused to place
credence in my statement.—( Loud cries of " Hear.")
Lord WHARNCLIFFE begged to repeat his surprise
that the Noble Earl should have expressed any asto-
nishment at the publication of the Report, knowing that
two thousand copies had been printed, and that several
copies had been distributed among his private friends. He
( Lord Wharneliffe)lwas not surprised, under such circum-
stances, that the Report had found its way into the papers ;
but what appeared to him extraordinary was, that any sur-
prise should have been expressed at its publication. Here
was a great press, whose object was on all occasions of
interest, to precede each other in their information ;.
and could the Noble Earl, after a certain number of copies
had been distributed among his friends, express any surprise
that the report should have got into the papers ? He gave
implicit credence to all the Noble Earl had stated with re-
spect to his not having sent the communication to the news-
papers. He entirely and fully acquitted him of that, but it
did appear to him that the Noble Earl, as Her Majes-
ty's Commissioner having made that Report to the Govern-
ment, ought not to have allowed it to get into the hands of
any body until her Majesty's Ministers had had an oppor-
tunity of well considering it, and adopting whatever line of
policy they might deem proper.
The Earl of DURHAM begged to remark that he had
the permission of one of her Majesty's Ministers to com-
municate the Report to some of his friends.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that would appear to him
to shift the blame from the Noble Earl to her Majesty's
Government.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had not distinctly
heard the date of the letter read by the Noble Earl.
A NOBLE LORD said the 2d.
Lord BROUGHAM—No ; the stb.
The Earl of DURHAM—It is the sth of February.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—If he understood the
Noble Earl right, her Majesty's Government had just seen
the Report in print. Now, he inferred that the report in
the first instance must have been written before it was
printed. He thought, however, the plan of printing a
document was liable to great objection—( Hear, hear)--
because it was for them to decide whether it should be
afterwards printed or not. Every sheet should have in
the first instance received the " imprimatur" of her Ma-
jesty's Printer. It appeared to him to be placing too large
a discretionary power in the hands of the Noble Earl, be-
cause the report might have contained matter which it
would have been very improper to have laid before the pub-
lic under any circumstances.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW said it was on that account
be had risen with so much anxiety to ascertain whether
any communication had been made by the Noble Earl to
the public papers. When he heard the statement of the
Noble Earl he certainly did think that he could have been
by any possibility privy to the publication of that Report in
the public papers. The Noble Earl now states that he was
not surprised at the report having reached the public press.
He wished the Noble Earl had stated that on the previous
night, but it appeared to him rather surprising that the
Noble Earl should have expressed surprise at the Report
being conveyed to the public when he himself had autho-
rized the printing of that document.—(Hear, hear.)
He took it for granted that what was authorized by
one Member of the Administration had the sanction of the
entire Cabinet. It appeared to him at least that
the Noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government
was not justified in the statement which he made on a
previous night to their Lordships.—( Hear, hear.) The
whole transaction was one of great irregularity..—( Cheers
from the Opposition Benches.) It should never have
been placed in the power of the Noble Earl to exercse any
discretion upon the subject. The document should have
been given in its original shape to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and the Noble Earl was not justified in deviating
from what was the usual course on such occasions. The
effect of that was that an insult had been offered to both
Houses of Parliament by these documents, which were
promised to be laid upon their tables, being previously
published and circulated throughout the country.—
( Hear, hear.)
Viscount MELBOURNE agreed with the Noble Earl
who had last spoken, that there had been very great irre-
gularity in the way in which the document bad got before
the public. There might have been matters in that Report
which it would not have been proper to have published.
Both the Noble Lords who had spoken on the other side of
the House had expiessed astonishment that he ( Viscount
Melbourne) should have stated on a former night his sur-
prise at the report having obtained publicity. He
was well aware of the anxiety in certain quarters
to obtain a copy of the Report, and on that ground
the printing of a large number of copies might have
been objectionable, as it increased the chances of the
Report falling into the hands of those who were so
eager to obtain it. At the same time it was a course that
had been very often pursued for the public advantage, in
order that documents might be prepared for the perusal of
Parliament, he had frequently known papers of equal inte-
rest, and in which as great interest and anxiety were evinced
on the part of the public press to obtain a copy ; and, al-
though the documents had in these cases been printed, at
present was the only single instance in which he had known
them to transpire.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") With
respect to what the Noble Earl had stated of a permission
of one of her Majesty's Ministers to communicate the Report
to any person, he ( Viscount Melbourne) was himself to-
tally ignorant of any such transaction. Of course, if the
Noble Earl had taken it upon himself to communicate the
Report to some of his particular friends, it was his duty to
be responsible for their discretion.—( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of DE VON said, there was another small
matter connected with the printing of these documents—
a practice bad lately grown up, of having documents
printed by a private printer, and then presented to the
House; that practice was quite inconsistent with the right
of her Majesty's printer; and in the present case, it afforded
strong evidence of the evils likely to arise from tho adop-
tion of such a course.
The Marquis of WE ST ME AT H—lt now appeared that
the affairs of Canada were to be postponed sine die.—
( Cries of " No, no I") He was the more anxious to
point this out to their Lordships, because the other
night, the Noble Earl did the House the favour to state,
that on a calculation of accounts, the public were
indebted to him a sum of 10,000/. He could not help
thinking that the public were placed in a humiliating posi-
tion if they were indebted in that or a smaller sum to any
individual for services of course not performed. If her
Majesty's Ministers had made an appointment which was
not justified by the fact, they were responsible ; but he
thought the accounts should be squared before anything
further was done on the subject of Canada. Their Lordships
would remember that, at the close of the last Session,
certain appointments were made, and the grounds for the
appointments were not stated.' The Noble Viscount was at

laid before their Lordships on the part of the Crown, there
was no question as to their being laid on the table of the
House.— ( Hear.)

The Marquis of WE S TM E ATM admitted, that perhaps
the present was not the most convenient time, at the same
time he would say one word in his own justification. The Noble
Earl having stated that the public were indebted to him
10,0001. appeared to him an additional reason why courtesy
should be extended to him, and that these matters should
be investigated as soon as a convenient opportunity pre-
sented itself.

Lord DURHAM could assure the House that he never
stated that Report was to cost 10,0004 He had said some-
thing with respect to the expenditure of his mission and
his personal outfit; but what be had said in reference to
that was, that he meant to make no charge on her
Majesty's Government in that respect, having formed the
intention of defraying those expenses himself.—( Hear.)
He had made no statement that he should charge her
Majesty's Government for a single sixpence, but that on
the contrary it was his determination to make no demand
whatever for any outlay with respect to himself.—
( Hear.) He had added, moreover, that the sum
so expended by him would amount to very little short of
10,000/.—( Hear, hear.) Now, if this question respecting
his mission, was to be disfigured by discussions of a per-
sonal nature, let Noble Lords have as many of them
of a personal nature as their hearts could wish for,
and he should be ready to meet them on their
own grounds. Let them blame him as much as
they pleased, but let the House once get through those,
and then let the House approach this great question with-
out an admixture of any of those low and petty feelings
which could tend to no good purpose, but only to the
injury of the fair and full discussion of the real and great
question the House had to do with.
_ _

The Marquis of WE S TM E ATH was glad to have been
set right, and he should be excessively sorry to think that
the Noble Earl should have any notion that he had the
slightest desire to indulge in any thing like personality.
He could assure the Noble Earl he had no such wish. It
was a public question, and as such he had taken it up.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that from
what had passed this evening he should withdraw the no-
tice which he had given on Friday. He had considered
that he should have been able to have expressed a profes-
sional opinion of the affairs which had taken place
in Canada, independently of the general question. But
finding, from the papers now laid on the table, the cer-
tainty of a discussion of the most important nature upon a
most important subject, he considered that lie ought
not to detach that discussion by the notice lie had
given. He reserved to himself, however, the right
of taking up the professional view of the subject when
the matter should come under debate. Before he sat
clown he must take leave to say ole word in reference to
what passed on Friday evening. He perhaps should not
have resisted a specification of the place to which he then
alluded, had it not been that the Noble Lord, the Comman-
der-in- Chief of her Majesty's Forces, made a direct call upon
him for that specification, when that Noble Lord must have
recollected that that very morning he had had a conversa-
tion with him upon the subject, when he had asked him for
a public order, which had been sent out to Sir J. Craig, and
afterwards promulgated by the Duke of York. The Noble
Commander-in-Chief, therefore, having been put fully
into possession of every information on the subject by him
within two hours of the time, at which the subject was
mentioned in their Lordship's House, he was the last per-
son surrounded by any set of Noble Lords who ought to
have persisted in calling for that specification, respected as
that Noble Commander-in- Chief was, and had always been,
by him (the Noble Marquis), and than whom no one ever
respected him more.

NAVAL AFFAIRS.
Lord NIINTO wished to ask the Noble Earl opposite,
who he saw had a notice standing for to-morrow, whether it
was his intention to bring on that discussion to-morrow, or
whether he meant to postpone it for any definite period?
Lord HA RDWICKE said (as we understood) that
he did not intend to bring forward the discussion
to-morrow. He was not, however, prepared to say
that he should not bring forward some motion on the
subject in the course of the Session, although he could
not bind himself to any given time. The Noble Lord took
this opportunity of giving notice that, to-morrow, he
should put some questions to the Noble Lord opposite
in regard to naval education. He (Lord Hardwicke) was
prepared to make good the statements that he had pre-
viously made. He had no party object in view, all that he
desired was to protect the interests of the Navy.
The Earl of M INTO said that if he understood the
Noble Lord, he was not at present determined as to what
course he should pursue. He could only say that when
the Noble Lord:thought it proper to bring, on the question,
he should be prepared to defend the administration of the
Admiralty, and answer the mis-statements that had been
forced upon the public. He hoped. whenever the ques-
tion was mooted, it would be brought forward net as a
question, but that the whole state of the Navy, with re-
spect to which so much misrepresentation had prevailed
would be made the subject of a substantive motion.
Lord COLVILL E regretted that the Noble Lord had
withdrawn the notice which he had given ; he was firmly '
persuaded it would give the greatest satisfaction to the
naval service, that the matter should be fully investigated.
He was satisfied that while commerce was the great object
of the nation, it was impossible that commerce should suc-
ceed unless it was protected by the Navy.
The subject then dropped.
The Earl of CHARLEVIL LE moved for certain re-
turns relative to the Constabulary of Ireland.
The House adjourned at ten minutes past six o'clock.

ANTI-CORN LAW DELEGATES

The Delegates met yesterday at three o'clock as usual,
at Brown's Hotel. J. B. Smith, Esq., in the chair.
Among the Gentlemen present, were Sir G. Strickland,
M. P., Mr. Warburton, M. P., Sir William Molesworth,
M. P., Mr. Dennistoue, M. P., Mr. Horsman, M. P., Mr.
Scholefield, M. P., Mr. Mark Phillips, M. P., Lord
Nugent, General Evans, M. P., Mr. Villiers, M. P., Mr.
Thornely, M. P., Mr. Howard Elphinstone, Mr. Ewart,
Mr. Boultbee from Birmingham, and Mr. G. A. Young.
Dr. BoweiNG reported from the Evidence Sub- Com-
mittee, that they bad been engaged in the preparation of
the agricultural questions, but that the field was so large,
they had not yet been enabled to lay them before the Com-
mittee ; but they hoped they should be enabled to do so
shortly.
The CHAIRMAN stated that he had received a communi-
cation from Kendal, stating that certain resolutions had
been agreed to at a Meeting of the Executive Council of
the Anti-Corn-law Association of that borough, ex-
pressing the deep regret and indignation with which they
had read the speech of Mr. G. W. Wood, on seconding the
Address to the Throne, believing that it was calculated to
mislead the House as to the real state of the manufac-
tures of this country, and fearing that it has already exposed
the Anti- Corn-law cause to severe detriment, and conclud-
ing to delay fowarding the petition until Wednesday. A
copy of these resolutions had been forwarded to Mr. G. W.
Wood, and also to the Chairman of the Anti-Corn-law
Delegates, at Brown's Hotel. He had also received a
parcel with a placard, which had been issued at Kendal,
calling a meeting of the electors and working men of Kendal,
to take into consideration the speech of Mr. G. W. Wood,
That Meeting had been held on Saturday, and had unani-
mously passed certain resolutions expressive of their in-
dignation at the conduct of Mr G. W. Wood, and calling
upon that gentleman to resign his seat as representative,
refusing to entrust him with their petition, and requesting
Mr Villiers to present the same, and ordering the resolu-
tions to be advertised in The Sun, Morning Chronicle, and
Northern Star newspapers. ( See our advertising co.
lumns. ) The Meeting was numerously attended, and went
off admirably ; nothing could be more unanimous than the
feeling exhibited on this subject.
The CHAIRMAN also stated a letter had been received from
Manchester, stating " that great excitements prevailed on
the subject of the statements which had been made in the
House of Commons by Mr. G. W. Wood ; that those state-
ments had been heard with mingled feelings of wonder,
indignation, regret, and pity ; that it was with difficulty
the writer could bring himself to believe until he had com-
pared the reports in the different papers, and found they
coincided, that Mr. Wood had stated that the trade of the
North of England was in a healthy condition-.-healthy
when from Mr. Wood's own lips we learn that the exports
of woollens have declined six per cent. at the same
time that he tells us the export of sheeps' wool
has increased fifty seven per cent. Healthy 1 when he
informs us that hardware and cutlery have fallen off 13
per cent., whilst the exportation of the raw material of
iron and steel has increased 37 per cent. Cotton manufac-
tures have, we are told, increased 4 per cent, whilst the ex-
port of yarn has increased no less than 20 per cent. In
silk goods, the increase has been 21 per cent., whilst coal
and culm, the very sources of our strength, have increased
59 per cent., and the exports of the five principal metals,
iron, copper, lead, tin, and brass, have augmented
24 per cent., thus proving that we are letting out
the life-blood that ought to warm and nourish us
at home, to circulate abroad, and give vigorous
and increased life to our rivals—healthy indeedt!
Then we are told also that our shipping interests
are in a very satisfactory condition ; and in proof the Hon.
Seconder of the Address gives us a table, showing that
whilst the increase of the British tonnage entering our
ports is 101- per cent. that of foreigners is 28 per cent.,
thus proving that our Corn and Timber Laws are sedu-
lously undermining our mercantile marine, at the same
time that the selfish aristocracy, for whose benefit those
laws are upheld, pretend to be highly solicitous about
the welfare of our Navy 1 As carriers we are now su-
perseded by the Americans, who would have no chance
in competition with us either in ship-building or
navigation, but for the misgovernment and aristo-
cratic extravagance under which our country labours.
To come nearer home, I must again express my wonder
at Mr. Wood's statement, that trade was prosperous in
Lancashire. True, the amount of goods manufactured
last year may have been as great as ever ; this arises partly,
however, from the fact that in 1834 and 1836 there was an
increase in the number of mills and manufactories built
and steam engines laid down ; and they are now working
at no profit, or what is worse, they are causing older
establishments to work at a loss; for you know well
enough, that in times like those, if new machinery yields no
return, the old and inferior kind is sure to be worked at a
ruinous loss. It would be a striking proof of the present
state of things to compare the sales and valuations of mills
and machinery three years ago and now; some say the depre-
ciation is equal to 20 or 40 per cent. I have just heard of a
mill valued at 9,0001. last week, which in 1835, was put
down by the very same valuer at 15,000/. Several of the
large spinners are now beginning to work short time. I
could mention several who have reduced their time to
three days a-week ; and one house is mentioned, as having
closed altogether. Nothing but such a course as this will
satisfy the world, that our trade here is unprofitable, for
whilst people are employed, and the revenue is sus-
tained, our Government will not be easily, persuaded
that the capitalist is losing money. My own opi.
nion is, that there is an immense deal of rot-
tenness to be laid bare, which will bring
men's minds both here and elsewhere, to regard the
future with rather less complacency than hitherto. Assu-
redly, if the present state of trade continues, half the
capitalists will be unable to renew their machinery after
it is worn out. Then will follow the competition of the

issue with the Noble Earl or his friends upon that subject
and yet, not understanding these facts, if the " best pos-
sible public instructors" be right, it was stated either in a
letter or article or address from the Noble Earl that he
had disclosures to make.
Lord 13ROUGHAM rose to order. He was sure his
Noble Friend who had just sat down would believe it was
not from any want of personal respect that he interrupted
him. lie quite agreed with him, that the affairs of Canada
were to be discussed, and ought to be discussed—differing
with him, that they were to be postponed sine die, but
rather that they should have no day without Canada—(much
subject,lauglit erm)—orat the
eespeciallyy me time he would put it to his Noble
Friend whether this was a convenient mode to discuss the
subject not coming 0
often enough.—( Hear, and
laughter.)
The Earl of WICKLOW submitted, with all respect
when there
need Ns was
not no
be
aquestionfraid o beforef
the House ? His Noblethe
n early and
for the Noble and Learned Lord, that there was a ques-
tion before the House that these papers do lie on the table.
Several Peers rose and spoke together, which occa-
sioned some confusion in the Housd.
Lord BROUGHAM begged to apologise to the Noble
Earl; he was not aware that gg
there was any question before
the House.

The Marquis
of LANSDOWNE apprehended that
was not the question for their Lordships to consider. His
Noble Friend had laid these papers on the table of the
House; and the question was whether that was a proper
time for the Noble Earl to discuss the subject to which
they referred.
Lord HOLLAND apprehended that when papers were