The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-13 00:00:00

one end of the town to the other? He would ult say, if hie
could anticipate all the great good that Mr. Black'. urnt
seemed to anticipate from this system,—he would not tay
that even the harmony of social intereourse,--nay, even the
public peace might not for a time be sacrificed ; but be
would ask if the Irish system had inherent in itself the
boon cf that compensating good in prospect ? None what-
ever. If it had not served the purpose of conciliation,
and that it would not serve the purpose of conciliation,
he had no earthly question whatever,—what boon did it
confer ? Had it added any thing ? If it had added any
thing it must be according to some Irish arithmetie,--
it must add by subtracting—(Laughter, and cries of
" Oh, oh,") for surely it had added nothing to what
they possessed before. They were pursuing a systetui
of husbandry from which he confessed he thought they
would derive little profit. In their top-dressing they had
not provided for drains, nor had they removed their briars •
and thorns encumbered the surface. He was of
opinion that a system of national education—he meant not
to speak harshly with regard to it—that any system of na-
tional education was little better than a system of national
folly.—(oh, oh.) He thought that as long as men enter-
tained different views of sacred things, it was impossible
that they could meet together on this subject,—it was im-
possible that the cause either of religious truth or sound
knowledge could be promoted in conjunction with untruth
and error. An eminent author of the present day observed
that " an advance in knowledge without religion is like that
of our first parents to the tree of knowledge—an advance
unto death,"—and he (Mr. Hodgson) was of opinion that a
system of education which under authority treated alike
truth and error, was incapable of communicating sound
moral or religious instruction. Men were wiser in their
generation ; he need not appeal to them in the world's affairs,
for they were all acquainted with them, whether they
thought that they would be likely to promote honest
dealing and morality by countenancing in their trans-
actions the issue of base money mixed up with the stan-
dard coin of the realm.—(Hear, bear, and laughter.)
Such he considered the system of national education now
under consideration. He would not now take up more of
their: time,—but when they said that they respected the
conscientious spruples. of all classes of the community with-
out taking upon themselves to decide whether those scruples
were well or ill founded, he would ask them to consider the
scruples of the largest class of the community.—(" No.")
The Church of England was, he believed, the largest class
of the community ; he believed that the Church of Eng-
land had most unequivocally expressed its sentiments against
the system ;—he believed also that the Church of England
was the wealthiest body here ; he believed that they con-
tributed more largely than any other class to the funds ap-
propriated to the maintenance of these schools : and were
the public funds to be so appropriated, against the will of
so large a proportion, both in numbers and weight of their
fellow-citizens ? He was not at all disposed—not in the
least disposed—to impugn the Motives of any of the gentle-
men 'around him for having tried this experiment ; he be-
lieved that they wished to try it as an experiment, and
some of them had told him that if it did not answer, they
would oppose it. Now, if it had not failed, as an experi-
ment, he was at a loss to know what failure was. The
elections (lid not present to him the view which Mr.
Blrickburn had taken. He' had not interfered much ; but
if the papers were correct, the Conservatives had gained
five members at the last election; and four at this. He
knew this—that it took a long time for men to attain to _
such a love of truth as to throw off their own consistency.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) " I appeal," said Mr. Hodg-
son warmly, " to many of those present"—
The MAYOR—Perhaps Mr. Hodgson will address him-
self to the chair.

Mr. HODGSON was not aware that he was breaking any
rule oforder. He appealed to many of the gentlemen pre-;
sent, if they had moral courage to-speak out, to say whether
the experiment had answered their expectations.—(Loud
and general cries of "It has.") He could not tell who did
not speak.—(Laughter.) He would not take up more of
their time now.—( Hear.) The subject might be considered
by sonic as worn somewhat threadbare ; but it was one of
deep and vital importance—one not for the working of men's
heads, but of conscientious men's hearts. He did sincerely
wish that they would consent to the sale of the schools,
in order to secure the peace of the town,—in order to
remove from themselves the charge to which they were
exposed—that of an undue and unfair appropriation of
the public funds,—in order to remove from themselves
the responsibility of a system of education in which ho
thought the opinions entertained here and elsewhere, and
especially in the Council itself, showed that they were
altogether in the wrong. With these remarks he would
conclude, sincerely wishing that he had a better chance of
success. He hoped that there would be a change in their
sentiments. He had no personal interest whatever ; but
he was sincerely desirous for the victory of truth, and hoped
that conviction would be brought to their minds as to the
error of the course which they were pursuing.
Mr. W. W. CURRIE was extremely glad to bear from
his young friend; the new Member fol. \Vest DerbrWard,
that the question of the schools and of the Bible •Vas not
made an election question, because it satisfied him (Mr.
Currie) that he, at least was sincere in that declaration,
and gave the lie to what was certainly a very general im-
pression in the town.—(Hear, bear.) He (Mr. Currie)
had, however, too much reason to believe that the fact was
otherwise, for he stated, on his own responsibility that one
gentleman of the party disl say that he considered the school
question a perfect Godsend, and that he hoped the Coun-
cil would persevere, and not give it up, for it was the best
trump the Conservatives had, and by it they hoped to win
the elections.—(Loud cries of " flear,hcar.4) The newly-
elected member for Everton Ward had said that the opi-
nion of the Church population had been unequivoCally ex-
pressed against this system—that it had produced nothing
but discord—and thatso long as it was continued it would
have no other effect, and that the experiment bad not an-
swered. Now he would ask the Member for Everton
Ward, and he would ask the Council whether the experi-
ment had had a fair trial ? whether the ministers of the
Church, to whom the people naturally looked up, had acted
the part which their feelings ought to have dictated to
them ? He impugned no man's motives ;he had always
respected the clergy, but be asked whether they had not
persisted in representations which were not founded in
fact, and w Welt were calculated to produce that very dis-
cord of which the Member for Everton Ward complained?
—(Hear, hear.) Bui it was not the fact that the Clergy,
as a body, were opposed to the system. Mr. Currie then
stated that the Hon. and ktev. Baptist Noel, Minister of
Bedford-street Chapel, Louder', a gentleman whom lie eulo-
gized as a steady and consistent Member of the Church of
England, and generally acknowledged as the head of the
Evangelical party, had gone over to Ireland, and spent six
weeks there, for the express purpose of examining into the
system of national education. The result was that Mr.
Noel declared, -in a work which he had recently published,
that whilst he was opposed to the errors oT the Church of
Rome, he did not see anything in that system of education
which the promoters of education, or the lovers of Ireland,
ought not to approve of.—(Hear, hear.) Oa the contrary,
he declared that he did not see how any other system of
education could be adopted in Ireland. After stating Mr.
Noel's opinions more at length, Mr. Currie. concluded by
expressing a hope that the Council would not go away with
the impression that all the Clergy of the Church of Eng-
lard were opposed to the system.
Mr. Hopt;sox wished to ask whether Mr. Noel's opinion
referred merely to the system in Ireland, or to its introduc-
tion into England ?
Mr. Connin I...lieved that Mr. Noel had expre,sed no
opinion as to England, but bad c3nlincd bis observations
merely to Ireland.
Mr. SANDS thought that if the schools were under the
neenagetnent of private persons, they would be much bet-
ter cov.'.lucted than they were by the Board. This was his
own feeling': He had visited the schools himself, and he
must say that. i,v did not approve of the system. Be was
a friend to education, rod he would make no distinction
whatever between one deuemination and another,but would
afford the means of a sound religious education to the chil-
dren of all denominations. Disapproving, as he did, of
the present system of education, he should support the
amendment.
r consulted,
Mr. J. SMITH had iildzlged a distant hope that some
ri management alteration migt tor
tiheel
sye
schools,
ph tosor,s t
hd.iacyh itnhethreeeslcinrgipstouf.
thety
trid
religious
objections
ioofn
sthe l
tcoogientuhieurn
overcome
;butbe
decided tone taken by the supporters of the present system
erl.reoingric't
of management, such expectation was altogether annihi-
lated. As the least of two evils, he should vote for the
proposition of Mr. Lawrence, although the alternative of
selling the schools was to him a most painful one.
Mr. Alderman EVANS was exceedingly happy that this
g. eat bomb-shell which had menaced them so long had
burst without doing them any injury, for it appeared to be
filled with the rags and rubbish of the fifteeno century,
wort) of the age of Henry VIII., and the very intolerance
which was held out to the people of England, tis the system
on whissli they ought to treat the Catholics, was only one
part of the lesson that would lead them to the stake, and
tend to raise up again the fires of Smithfield.—(ll"o
He had heard that all the Clergy .were united agaidst them
—they were ; and what effect had they produced ?
(Hear.) Considering the influence which they
over the nervous and the weak—over old women and weak-
miiided thee:--they
arge
they would suppose that a very 1 possessed
large portionportion
of tire community must have given way to these alarmists—
these men who were the dispensers of heaven and of hell to,
many—but what had they done? -Why, the late elections
were a complete evidence that they had been fuming whh
fury and with rage, but bad not convinced the people at
all. He should suppose that if the Clergy wero in the
right, and were all banded together on the right side, their
influence would have been irresistible, and that not one of
the sixteen wards would have returned a L'beral Member,