The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-20 00:00:00

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1 ~

ail new light had not entnewhat se -.net- illumineted the
• understandings of those Hon Gentlemen, as no less a sun/
than 60,000,0001. might hay:, been seved by avowing the
eame conviction in 1817. The course he proposed, it wse
true, might infringe on the custom of the House, but it
was not on that account the less; worthy of their adoption.
What he meant to suggest was, that the House should
fewer be induced on any pretence whatever, to vote a
shilling of supply until the Chancellor of the Exchequer
hied explicitly slotted what :sere the proposed reduesieee of
taisetien. 'l'h, Right Hon. Gut. had a'rtoily laid !wren.
them the rednetions in expenditure, end Ise, individually,
was far front being satisfied with their amount. Givern•
ment, in his opinion, liAil not (tarried the principle of re-
treoehment to the extent which the public necessities de-
mewled. In the examina.ione, tie which, as a meeiber of
the Finance Committee, he was a patty, the facility of
Making much more considerable reductienr hail been cleat!),
mole manifest. In the army a'one they mitt!: t easily
economize so 43 to risible* a seeing t► the country fir
beyond that contemplated by Ministers. In the department.:
of the Paymaster, the Comptroller, the War-office, an I the
Agency, it was obvious that great retrenchment was ad-
missible, connistent with the perfect efficiency of the ser-
The regulation clothing and cavalry depertment in
reneral would admit of reduction to the amount of
200,0001. A anti of 24,000/. a year might be saved
by abolislsino the .agency effice, which was quite un-
necessary, as it was only made a repository of the dupll
Cite! of accounts. Teen, nothine could be mere exhor-
Intent and preposterouely extrevegent then the expeivii-
titre of the navy. To support this assertion, was it neces-
sary to do more than allude to the buil iings of ships and em-
Imeneet of workmen, which was sought to be justified on
the pretence that other nations would benefit by theeervice
of mir artisans, if we del not give them busineat ourselves,
elthough we might not respire what was thus provided
for twenty years to come? Toe iniscelleneous xpendintre
was equally capable of reduction, which, in feet, ought
to lie applied to every thing in every department which
seas not unevoidably necessary. In the Colonies they
should likewise retrench with an unsparing hand, and this
was the more desirable, as much extravagance, both civil
and military, would be found to originate under this head
of public expenditure. It was said that we could not
tnake any further. reductions in the military department
generally, but le; wished to know whether this remark
scald fairly apply to the Horse Guards? It was also
• alleged, that our Colonial posseseions would interfere with
the rednetion of the infantry, and he admitted that the
Proportion of fifteen years of a regiment's foreign service
to five years' service at home, certainly did throw in ob-
stacle in the way of any extensive retrenchment. But the
infantry tram nevertheles; susceptible of moderate reduc-
tion. A- Committee in 1817 hail estimated our future ex-
Penne% at 17,300,000/, per annum, yet had we gone on
yearly encroaching on:that expenditure, and during the last
year alone we had exceeded it by 300,000/. Was this
system to be tolerated if persisted in at a time of profound
peace, 'h-n every article was at a reduced price, when
low prices trete the subject of such general outcry and
Complaint. He fully agreed with the Nettle Lord, the
Meitner for Northamptonshire (Lord Alttiorp), in
thinking that they should meet the distrusa of the country
by reduction. Let it, however, be remembered that nothing
.had that night fallen from the Right Hon Gentleman from
which it could be inferred that any reductien is taxation
was contemplated by Government. The sum of 150,000/.
"roof,/ be saved in consequence of the reduced interest
of our unfunded debt, but that reduction did not in any
way relate to our expenditure er public establishments.
The Hon. Member for Callington had said that there were
only 11,000,0001. at their disposal out of which to make
reductions, but that sum might be considerably increased
by retrenching in the collection of the revenue, and the ex-
penditure of Scotland. In the item of beer duty alone
370,0001. might he saved to the country, and in Feinted
cottons the sum of 1,400,000/. was taken off the public,
although but 600,0001. went to the revenue. That greet
relief would result to the population from the proper exer-
cise of their legislative duty, with these Lets before their
eyes, he thought could not by any one be denied. If the
House came to a resolution that time; to the amount of
4,090,000/. could be withdrawn, Minister', he would
'aswer for them, in a few day. would open their eyes to
the possibility. If they did not act thus, it was futile to
expect any measure of permanent advantage to the !suffer-
.ing-population. They might discuss the estimates in de-
tail, but it would he a mere matter of form unless the whole
subject went regularly before a Committee. The surplus
revenue of last year had amounted to 170,000/., and that
of this year to 128,000/. ; they had, consequently,
3,000,0001: of surplus revenue at their disposal for the
relief of the people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
• might say that the revenue would not keep up; and if ao,
he for one wool,' be disposed to make every allowance for
such a contingency; hut he feared diet the surplus might
be applied to the reduction of the nett, and not to the
abatement of taxation. In (conclusion, he felt obliged to
the Right Hon. Gentleman far the spirit of fairness and
candour in which he appeared to have made his statement
to the House.
Mr. FERGUSSON wan disappointed in the nature of
the redaction proposed, as he had expected retrenchment.
in taxation. Nor was economy likely to be practised to
the extent that he had hoped for. They were informed
last Session that it was necessary to keep five-sixths of
ear disposable force to keep Ireland in order, and that
Catholic Emancipation would in consequence induce a
ennsiderable saving is military expenditure to the country.
They were since told, by the Right Honouothle Horne
.Secretary, that that measure had proved efficacious beyond
their hopes; soil he thought that, in compliance with the
previous !sledge, they should now rote lola reduction of
5,000 men, on the ground of the altered situation of Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear.)--He would not set up his opinion
oppesition to that of Ministers with respect to the Colo-
?lief., lint this change which had lately taken place in the
Etat of Europe was an event which all would confess ought
• to inflaetice their rates upon future military arrangements.
Mr. W. SMITH thought that they might have made a
midi larger diminution ofexpenditure its this department,
reonsidering that the exertions of the Duke of Wellington
• had placed the country in a situation to look every enemy
in the face without fear. He was glad that, amongst
modern improvement., they had abandoned the sinking
fandn which was a most preposterous theory when the
' debt amounted to such a sum as 700,000,0001.
it would be little satisfaction sixteen years. hence to be
told that their debt was only 100,000,000/. instead of
700,000,0001. Instead, therefore, of speculating on a
reduction of the debt, he would have them endeavour only
to increase the comforts of the people.
The SPEAKER then left the chair, and the House re-
sidved itself into Cemmittee.
Sir HENRY lIAItDINGE said that it was his inten-
tion, in bringing forward the Army Estimates for the pre-
't,nt year, to adopt the usual and most convenient course
of Stating in detail the reductions contemplated since he
41 the honour of submittisig a like statement to the
Honse. He should commence by adverting to the pro -
holed redUctions in the staff, and here he could net help
regretting that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen was not in
his place, as he .hiel represented that the intended reduce
o Eons were paltry and insignificant.. Indeed, to do the
in? 6. Gentleman justice, it was not his custom to absent
qnntelf on such an occasion.—(Laughter.)—He could
ot4iire the House, that the retrenchments in contemplation
' •:7'tts much misrepresented when so described. In the
sostoff department it was hoped that they would effect a
1,41n1t over last year of 27,551/. In addition to which,
"Y designed to reduce the office of Adjutant-General.
14 his own office ouch reductions had taken place as the
,intereets of the public service would permit. To the abi-
- '43" anti good conduct of the clerks in the War-office he
• bald himself bear the amplest testimony. They were in
lll'tt'tnects'deserving of the praise which had been ren-
..iptered to other gentlemen in similar situations by his Hon.
f risint the Secretary to the Treasury, a few evenings be-
!ire. He had nerer sects gentlemen discharg e their duty
I'l 'eery respect in a more exemplary manger, and as
nsh was dependent on their itstsgrity, he was sure that
110 Person could complain that they were overpaid. The
this war they had necessarily increased to 170, and they
*sr* note again reduced to 73. As to the patronage con-
nected with the office, it could not be sail to amount to
"Th,•for his predecessor, 1:e believed, had been able to
1:144s but five or six appointments, and, for his own part,
had hitherto no opportunity of pc-omitting any. In the
a'ilitary college a reduction would be effected to the amount
°'
2'2731., and the total reduction in the education of the
erne.
e Would amount to 7.659/. The salary of the Gover-
nor of the College was reduce:l front 1,500/. to 1,000/.
• r,
,Pe snntsm, to which he very handsomely acreifeil. Time
7.l4iiintte for general ofliitere teas 126,0001., and they lied
"'sod tide departmentln the estimate far
elnpoo •
The anu nitlitary aliowaniTso,ooo it would he found thet
-toor' wag a reduction of 18,179/. Then there was also a
tfielfit in the department of the retired' upon full pay, and
•or 3:4iZn pay lien This would make a reduction in total
he
411.49/. 'He had said, last Session, that it was probable
ow cold be enabled so cancel 140 subalterns, and he was
h.
as the to say that he had understated that probability',
toerie number of officer's *cancelled proved to be 210. Thus
itoo,:tFluld be 'a real saving of 37,0001., although circuits-
Totos would render the apparent saving only 18,179/.
rednotiu:nber ofrtffieers reduced would be 3,000, and the
3,sotoo:''s io the civil part of the army would amounitr
-
With respect to pensioners the number had very

vire.

iVerabiy met-eased of late years,_- eircomatance which
could be. very easily. ou for. 11y the regulations
wisieli had been edooted, ea, peneian I;st would be reduced
this year by 1,200 o•eoarto- -that is, the number of deaths
which hag taken passee on the !tension fiat would not be
filled up by that tot:ober. Teas fiintinotion was consequent
upon alterations the present Commander of the
Forces, had deemed it exisedielut tit effect in the Pension
Act of 1806, which heel been introduced by Mr. I,lrynd-
ham. Many important regulations had, he was bound
to say, been intredneed b 1 his Noble oredecesser (Lord
Palmerston) in the office of Sseretary of War, with respect
to the rate of service for which a pension might be claimed.
Accooling to Mr. Weeillhatn's Act, a soldier (using the
term generally) wss entitled to a pension, even though he
had seent a part of the requisite number of years out of
the servire altogether, with this condition, that every
two years out of service counted but as one of
actual service. In coesequence of this regulation
many persons were entitled to pensions whose real
claims were eery questionable. His Noble predecessor
had, a+ he had stated, abolished 'that system, an I loud in-
sisted upon actual service altogether. By another regula-
tion of tire Wendham Act, two years' Ferrite in the Wesit
Indies counted as a claim ler pension allownneeaqoally
with three years' service elsewhere. To his Noble prede-
cessor the country was also indsbted for the saving conse-
quent upon the abolition of that regulation, as well as for
the great saving of preventing the allowance exceeding the
pay of the soldier whi:e in actual service. Under Mr.
Wyndham's Act, the allowance often amounted to double
pay, by which it was evident the pension estimate was
very much augmented. There was another regulation of
the Act of 1806, which was fbend to operate very disad-
vantageously, so far as the public money was cAeerned,
while it was not just to the soldier of lone service,—he
meant that under which these who had been discharged
for r disability contrarted in service were entitled to a
pension far life, even though they had but one year's ac-
tual service. He had mule a calculation of the number
of pensioners consequent upon this imp:ovident regulation,
and he found (he of course excluded the veterans in his
calculation) that there were 350 persons receiving pen-
sion allowances, whose average service was but four years,
and whose average age was but 24 years—(Hear)—and
he found that there were not less than 20,000 pensioners
whose average age was bpi 31 years.—(hear.)—lt was
hardly necessary for him to call the attention of the Com-
mittee to the great saving which would accrue to the coun-
try from the abolition of that regulation.—(Hear.)—Soon
after his accession to office the subject was forced
upon his attention ; and he felt it to be his duty to ad-
vise his Majesty not to allow a pension under the circum-
stances be had mentioned for less than 14 years' service ;
and then that the pension should not be permanent, un-
less for 21 3ears) service. A great saving was, or rather
he should pay would he, the consequence of his suggestion
having been adopted, while lie thought an act of justice
would be performed so far as the veteran was concerned.—
(Hear.)---It was his rule to reward the soldier of short
service, so far as was consistent with justice, and the
soldier of long service so far as was connected with the
finances of the country.—(llear.)—ln the expiration of a
short time he hoped to see the pension list as low, in con-
sequence of this change. as in ISI7. The next estimate
to which he ]:egged leave to direct tile attention of the
Committee was the army widow pension •allowance,
am tinting to 145,2671. for the present year. Though
this showed au increase of 1,856/. over that of last year,
he was enabled to state that a regulation which had lately
bo,n adopted with respect to the pension-list of officers'
widows would tend to diminish this eatimate in future.
It was intended that hereafter the widow of no officer
or soldier should be entitled to a pension, unless her
husband had undergone ten years' actual service, or
was killed in the performance of his duty. This re-
minded hint of a reduction which Hon. Members
would find set down in the present year's estimates
he meant the voluntary and munificent act of
Mr. Francis Aloore.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—That emi-
nent officer had 'enjoyed a pension of 800/. per annum, for
his service. as Deputy Secretary of War, which he, of his
own accord, gave up to his country.--(Hear, bear.)—lle
did so with the most unostentatious simplicity, on the
grounds that, as be resided out of the country, and thereby
did not contribute to the public exigencies, ire felt himself
not entitled to an ellowance, which he did not spend among
those to whom he was indebted for it.—(Cheers.)—" But
this noble and patriotic conduct," continued the Right
Hon. and Gallant Member, " belongs to Mr. Francis
Moore's family.—(Hear.)—lt happened that I was the
comrade of his illustrieue and gallant brother (Sir John
Moore), and was near him when he received that fatal
wound, which he bore with a fortitude that I cannot but
say was elmest superhuman, that closed his heroic career;
and I can take it upon roe to say, that though the services
of Mr. Francis Moore were performed in a less conspicuous
field, his motives in making a voluntary surrender of the
reward of these services, partook of the same high-minded
and truly patriotic r spirit which regulated every act of his
gallant brother's- life."—(Loud cheers. )-31r. Meore's con-
duct in this affair, he thoitglunwould be the more appreciated
by the country, when it was known that he was a gentleman
of very moderate fortime.—(Hear.)—Nor was the conduct
of his son, Lieut.-Col. Moore, whom he was proud to call his
friend, less deservirig the approbetion of the Committee, for he
readily acquiesced with his father's proposition, though his
own fortune little exceeded his military pay.—(Cheers.)—
He next begged leave to direct the attention of the Committee
to the amount of forces which it was deemed necessary to
maintain in the present year, and for which the estimate
was 6,123,1121., exclusive of army extraordinarics and
yeomaury. This, he was gratified by being enabled to
state, was the lowest estimate submitted to Parliament for
the last 25 years.—(Hear, hear.)—lle admitted that the
estimate for 1822 and 1823 was apparently less; but it
would be borne in mind that the cost of the several colo-
nial corps war not included in any army estimate till
1828 ; so that if it were added to the general estimate of
.1822 and 1823, it would be found to be upwards of
100,000/. more than the estimate of the present- year.
Then, with respect to the amount of force, it would be
found that between 85,84 S men, and the number in the
first estimate which he would submit to the Committee,
was a :eduction, in fact, of 7,684 men (as Hon. Members
would see in the 4th page of the estimates), leaving 81,164
men, for whose pay and clothing 158,5601. was necessary.
The reduction which would be made under this estimate
had another advantage,—that no soldier would be dis-
banded 'under Mr. NVyralhatn's Pension Act, till he was no
longer fit for service. Last year a reduction of 1,200 men
had been effected, which, with that intended to be made
this year, would make a reduction of 4,300 men. As he
was on the point of reduction, he begged Hon. Members to
refer to page 41 of the estimates, and they would see one
very strikiug beneficial effect of the Catllol:c Relief Bill of the
last Session. In consequence of that measure, Min's-
ters would be enabled to withdraw not less than 3,000
men from Ireland—( le:1r, hear)—by which the country
at large would be saved 50,0001. per annum, as it was
intended that that force should be disbanded.—(Hear.)—
lie might here indulge in congratulations on the improv-
ing state of Ireland, to 'which-he would assert that benefi-
cent measure was mainly instrumental ; but he would for-
bear, gad inerey express his hope that peace and justice
would shortly supersede the necessity altogether of a mili-
tary force in that country.—(Hear, hear.) He would
next take the liberty of directing the attention of the
Committee to the number of battalious necessary to our
colonial relief system, against which the lion. Member
for Calliniton had stated some objections. The number
in the present estimate would amount to 72 battalions, of
which 26 were al that would remain in Great Britain an,l
Ireland, it being calculated that four were in a state of
passage (there were, in fact, but three) to the colonies;
which therefore would require the remainder. He admit..
ted that the simple statement of the number might lead
Hon. Members to infer that an unnecessarily large force
was kept up ; but when the relief system_usually 10
years abroad to four years at home—was considered, it
would be found that the force was barely sufficient. In
tact, though 74 battalions should have been sent out dur-
ing the last ten years, according to the ten to four years
principle, but 52 haul been sent. The Hon. Member for
Callingtun seemed to think that the Guards ought to be
reduced as well as other branches of the army ; but the
Hon. Alember seemed to forget that the number of bat..
talions of tile Guards had not been increased since the time
of Charles 11., and were the same now as during the
American war, and were actually less than in 1792, when
the companies ameuateul to 64, there being now but 58.--
(Heir.) With respect to the reduction which the Hon.
Member had stated as expelisnt in the number of cavalry
regiments, he begged the Hon. Member to recollect that
though the reduction in the present estimate was but of
454 men, the amount of the existing cavalry force was
much less than that of 1792, at the commencement of the
wsr. At present we haul but 26 cavalry regiments; in
1792 we had 31, and the number of officers in the same
proportion. Further reduction: was in contemplation,
among which he might then state that it was resolved by
the Commander of the Forces that the second majorships
should not be filled up as they became vacant.--(Hear.)—
He might indeed rest his defence of the necessity of the
present amount of forces to the relief system of the Colo-
oies, on the evidence given by his noble predecessor hi
office before the Finance Committee, which evidence
would convince lion. Members that the force at present
kept up was not green. than the interests of the co-untre
required. Tile question then was, as it was fairly put by

the lion. Member for Calinetren es a eer earrisee ros
too large?- Was it theres 7; eeek to tnsee
duction ? It was given in • evideeee le-eire the Fieeme
Committee, that the number of triiieie pis-Rent re-
tained in the West Indies was much less than in the
year 1792, though, since that time. tire epearent ne-
cessities of an inereia,ed force had nsigmentee. In sr.
Domingo, a neighbouring island,- 24 hours' eeil or
Jamaica was now a free Week population ; and insny re-
publican States had since sprung up in tiro neighhourheed,
Then, it we looked to Canada, it would be fiend that eni
force there was much less now than it was in 1793. The
same could be said of Nova Scotia and of Gibraltar. The
only exception was New South Wales, in which there was
now a larger force than in 1792,' for femme 'which Ire had
no doulet the Right lion. Home arid Colonial Secretaries
would have no difficulty in 'justifying. In the old Go:
verninente, then,
.there was a diminution in our garrison
force, which amounted to 17,000 men ; in the new Gas
vernments the force was 17,000, ryas hut fair to
presume that tl:e ratio was founded on the same principle
of economy as he had shown to be maintained on the old.
Circumstances, not diffieult to be explailletl, in the East
Indies, had rendered an augmentation of force necessary
there. The amount of troops was now 20,000 ; in 179 e
they were 10,000. He had shown generally that the
force at present kept up was only 6,000 more than in
1522 ; for if, from tire Sl,OOO there be deducted the
7.5,000 estimate, which would include the colonies, of
1822, there would be a balance of but 6.000 against the
present year. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had ar-
gued far the necessity of further reducing the militia force
of the country. Upon this point lie differed from him
it was never contemplated that the old and constitutional
farce should be entirely put down. He spoke in the pre-
sence of the Hon. Member far Limerick, who was the of-
ficial agent of that reduction, and ask-eel him whether more
was meant than tire reduction of the staff of the mill ia,
whether it was intended that the main force should be
reduced below that of 1782 ? One wo:d with respect to
the yeomanry; he had reason to believe that the Govero-
ment which preceded the present had made minute in-
quiries into the utility of the force, and had made every
practicable reduction. The present Government had re-
ceived that force on this understanding. He nets enabled
to state, that, it was intended that the expense of that
corps should be reduced ten per cent., and that every
further practicable reduction should lie adopted, In con-
clusion, then, he would state, that the dead *eight ex-
pense of the army had passed its maximum, that there was
a reduction in the general army estimates of 231,000/.
which, with the reduction of 64,000/. in the militia '
estimates, and of 150,000/. in the army extraordineries,
made a total reduction of 452,0001. tender this branch
of the public service in one year. If to this the Corn-
mittee would add the reduction of last yeer, they would
find the estimates of this year 727,000/. less than that of
1828, The Right lion. Member conclnded by moving a
re-solution, " That it was expedient that a force consisting
of 88,84 S men should be kept up for the military service
of the current year, exclusive of the forces employed by
the East India Company."
Colonel DAVIES could not but lament that the pro-
mites held out by Ministers of reductions commensurate
with the distressed state of the country were so little likely
to be realized. To what did the vaunted reductions
amount ?—To 231,0001. in the army extimaters: a reduc-
tion which was a mockery, when the state of the country
was considered,--a state which hail no parallel since the
days of Charles ll.—(Cries of " No, no.")—The son.
Member was proceeding to state his objections against the
proposed estimate, but was so interrupted by the impatience
manifested by the House, that—
Mr. HUISIE rose to order, and declared that if his lion.
Friend did net obtain a hearing, he should more that the
Chairman do report progress, so as to afford his Hon.
Friend another opportunity of expressing his sentiments.
Colonel DAVIES proceeded again to argue, that if we
looked to the east or the west, it would be seen that this
e ,entry had not been so low in the eyes of Europe since
the days of Charles II.—(No, no.) He contended that he
was borne out by facts in this st dement. In the east our
ancient Ally was prostrate at the feet of Russia—in the
west Spin had attacked those new States with which we
were cultivating amicable and commercial relation's. It
was really important to observe, with reference to the
British military expenditure generally, that its army of
90,000 men (exclusive of extraordinary expenses, pen-
sions, &c.) coat the country more than France paid fur her
military establishment of 150,000 mere.—(Near.) Such
was indeed the scale of expenditure, that he knew not how
to call upon lion. Members to begin the work of reduc-
tion. lie thought, however, the best elan would be to
propose in the shape of an amendment, that the present
estimates, instead of being taken as the rate for twelve
months, should merely be allowed to stand for three
months (until the 25th of May, for instance); and next,
should that resolution be carried, he meant to knew it up
by a motion for the appointment of a Select Committee to
inquire into the whole subject of the military expenditure,
with a view to such reduction thereof as was called for
by the exigencies of the country. He was bound to show
prima facie that a considerable reduction was quite pries
ticable. To begin with Ireland, they had the authority of the
Hon. Alember for Clare and of other Hon. Members well
acquainted with thestate of the country, to show the existing
tranquillity which prevailed there, and was the result of the
great measure of last year—that immortalizing act of the
Noble Duke at the head of the present Government.--
He should therefore propose a reduction of 8,000 men
from the 18,500 voted for the service of Ireland, which,
under the altered circumstances of the country, could be
most safely made, to the diminution of an expense of at
least half a million of money. The next source of reduc-
tion would be found in the Colonies. Is Canada, in Malta,
the lonian Islands, and tire Cape of Good Hope, a variety
of important reductions could be made, which he should
be prepared to subliantiate in the Committee. Every
where reductions could be made, and without diminishing
the real effective service of the country. Look at the
military force of America, where the whole standing army,
including artillery, did not exceed 6,000 men, and these
intended to cover an extent of country equal in size to
nearly the whole of Europe. The Americans relied in a'
time of necessity upon the reinforcements from their militia.
Why not Great Britain do the same in the Canadas, where
sire had a large militia reserve enrolled (he believed to an
extent of 140,000) which could be speedily made avail-
able? In the colonies he thought a reduction of 7,000 or
8,000 men could be speedily effected, Then in the lonian
blends there were plenty of sources of reduction, particu-
larly of four militia inspectors, six sub-inspectors, at
thousands a year salary, where, from time beginning there
never was a single complete regiment of militia. Look at
Gibraltar:.—Why was 6,0001. a year given there to a
Governor? If there must be such an office where duties
were not to be performed, he was sure his lion. and
Gallant Friend the Secretary at War had only to go
to-morrow morning to the United Service Club, where
he would in a moment find 20 most competent officers
ready to undertake it f0r2,000/. a year.—(A laugh. )—The
fact was, that were this an economical Government and
an honest House of Commons, a reduction of twenty
thousand men-could be immediately made in the standing
army, with the abolition of a wide range of useless and
expensive attendant establishments. Let, then, those
Hon. Members who brought petitions against the mait
and other taxes, and who were so justly loud in their com-
plaints of time prevailing degree of distress, orsiy join hirer
in paring down these branches of useless expenditure, and
they would find &remedy at bed. It would be in vain
for them is vote large sums to the Government for esta-
blishments on one day, and on the next call for a reduc-
tion of taxes. The instant they got the money, the Go-
vernment were sure to spend it, and get rid of the Par-
liament as they got this essential part of the business of
its meeting perfermed.—(Hear.)—He concluded by mov-
ing as an amendment, that the present estimates should
be merely taken fur three months, intending afterwards to
propose for a Committee to inquire into the whole mili-
tary expenditure.

Mr. 110BHOUSE, in supporting the amendment, said
that he was not one of those who wished to join any par-
ticular parties in that House to support a Government
because it was called strong. On the contrary, his expe-
rience convinced him that these strong Governments were
less susceptible of the influence of public opinion, and he
therefore preferred those Administrations which were
called comparatively weak, and on that account obliged
for the assurance of their Support, to depend more on occa-
sional compliance with the voice of the people. He
wished to ask the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-
cli,pier, whether it was the intention of Government to
make any reduction in the taxes. The House had heard
that there was to be retrenchment, but he wanted to know
whether the saving eff,cted by that retrenchment was to I
supply any deficiency in the revenue, to form a Sinking
Fund, or be applied to the reduction of taxation.
The CtIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that I
had it bees in his power, at the present early period of
the
spsession, to have stated to the House his view with re-
e-t to the finances of the country, he would have done i
so. It was, however, out of his power to make any such i
statement at present, and lie was sore that every person in
tits that to make any partial statement
(nsluicTste t.s n
u.b°jueled Su e
t tvo'uld only tend to aggravate the exit- I
ieg distress, and lead to false conclusions. He therefore
coal I only give this assurance, that he would take.the
esrliest opportunity—far earlier than was usual on such
state what were the viev.-3 of Government •,

with respect tn the question or 'a reduction of taxation
and he only cn-o,3te I. ;hat the House would not info
from Ma silenee ecgerhived any Opinion either in
flvour or .li,rt,-6nr tt'slimiNi,hing the amount of taxation,
Sir JOAN WiZOTT:F.SII:2V concurred with the nitThi

Ilan. Gentleman, that aoy ;;:;vial statement on a subje
o: such great importance as the reduction of taxation wool,
only lead to the injury of the ravenue, and be protinetive
of complete delusion,
Mr. WESTERN gave credit to the Government for a
disposition to make every practical reduction in the ex-
penditure, but he did not understand why the military
establishment should at prcsent be more by 6,000 men
than in 1822, and he should therefore vote for the
amendment.
Sir R. FERGUSON thought a single regiment could
not be spared from tli colonies.
Sir R. WILSON did not think the colonial force too
large for the garrisons and situations they were to occupy.
It was-another question, whether thosJ places should be
kept.—(llear.)—lle thought that the East India Com-
pany ought to bear a proportion of the expense of the re-
giments maintained fur the East-India service; otherwise
the people of England would be paying a charge which the
East-India CoMpany always pretended they did not'in:pose.
Sir H. HARDINGE admitted that t:tc subject noticed
by the gallant Member was well worthy of inquiry.
Mr. STANLEY hoped that the amendment would not
he pressed to a division, for in that case, however unwilling
he might he to vote against a Government to which he gave
credit for possessing a disposition to retrench, be must sup-
port the amendment. thought it would be better for
the Hon. Member for Worcester (Colonel Davies) to
allow the estimates to pass, and then come forward with
a motion for the appointment of a Select Committee to in-
quire into that which was the most important branch of
the investigations of the late Finance Committee—the ex-
penditure incurred by the military establishments in the
colonies, and the depot system io England.
Lord ALTHORP. did not wish to see the amendment
pressed to a division, but, if it were, he should feel com-
pelled to vote for it.

Sir IJUSSEY VIVIAN was no friend to a standing
army, hui he thought it would be impolitic to reduce the
cavalry.

Mr: HUME would support the amendment.
Mr. MABERLY, with respect to the Committee re-
commended by his Hon. Friend Colonel Davies, saw no
chance of his obtaining it. He agreed with the Hon.
Member for Montrose, that the cavalry should be made
disposable for foreign service, and by that means some fur-
ther reductions might be made in the army. But if the
cavalry were kept at home, and if no reductions should be
made in that service, he (Mr. Moberly) would not press
for a reduction of the infantry in our colonies, for it would
be impossible to keep the colonies in their• absence.
Lord PALMERSTON could not give a silent vote on
this occasion, and he was anxious to state, that he could
not consider it consistent with his public duty to vote tot
the amendment proposed by the Hon. Member opposite.
He was quite convinced of the necessity which existed for
retrenchment and reduction in every quarter, in order if
possible to relieve the distresses of the country ; at the
same time he felt that that relief was not to be attained
by the reduction of any of our effective establishments be-
low that point at which, under the existing circumstances
of the country, it seemed fit and expedient to maintain
them ; anti looking- at the considerable possessions of the
Crown of Great Britain in all parts of the v.exld, he
(Lord Palmerston) was not disposed to thick tliat it would
he expedient at present to reduce any of our military
forces beyond the point state I by his Right Hon. Friend
the Secretary at War. It was quite a different ques•
don, whether upon any review of our colonial s3stem, and
of the expenditure connected with their several establish-
ments, the local expenses of the colonies might not be re-
duced, or their resources rendered more available for their
own support,—(Hear, hear.)—That was quite a different
question, and he did not consider himself as expressing any
opinion retarding it by his vote on the present emotion.—
(Hear.)—He thought Lis Right Hon. Friend had pro-
posed a considerable reduction.
Mr. LABOUCHERE should certainly vote for the
amendment. He found it difficult to persuade himself
that 5,000 men were necessary fur the preservation of
Nova Scotia and New Brunswiek.—(licar.)—He would
state one fact illustrative of the manner in which Canada
was governed. He happened to know tint in the colony
of Lower Canada there were no less than 400 miitia
officers degraded under the administration of the late Go-
vernor, Lord Dalhousie, simply for attending a meeting
which was held there for the purpose of petitioning this
House,—a right which, if they had not exercised, they
would not have been worthy of the name of British sub-
tects.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")—On the proper
occasion he should not fail to express to the Hou,e his opi-
nion of the system of government pursued in our North
American provinces, and lay before thatn the feelings of
the inhabitants of those provinces on that subject.
Sir H. 'VIVIAN remarked that there were four regi-
ments of Guards in this country always ready for foreign

service.
Mr. W. DUNCOMBE was convinced that the reduc-
tions proposed by his Majesty's Government would not at
all satisfy the people. He was Sony to hear the declara-
tion from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he could
not say at present that he would be able to come down to
the House to propose any reduction of taxation.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY wished to say a few words,
in consequence of what had been stated by some Hon.
Members in the course of the debate. The Hon. Gent.
opposite said, that the Canadas were governed upon a gar-
rison system. To show that was nut the fact, it was suffi-
cient to state that the military force there now was the
same as in 1792, though the population had considerably
increased there since, and the possessions of the Crown
had been enlarged, not by the addition of new territory,
but by bringing into cultivation that which had lain waste
and neglected. With respect to the cme of the officers of
militia mentioned by the Hon. Member for St. Michael,
all he (Sir G. Murray) could state to the ]louse regarding
it at present was this—that the case of these officers had
been referred to the present governor, the circumstance
having occurred in the time of his predecessor, and he (S'r
G. Murray) could assure the Hon. Member, that though
it was impossible that these officers could at present be
replaced, in consequence of their places having been filled
by other individuals, there was not the smallest objection
to their return whenever places should become vacant for
them, and no stigma whatever rested upon their character
or conduct.—(llear, hear.)—The Hon. Member opposite
(the Member for Aberdeen) bad eentended for the reduc-
tion of the military force in Ireland, and had gone farther
back than 1792, to compare the force than required in
Ireland withthet maintained there at present. Though he
(Sir Geerge Murray) felt perfectly confident that the great
measure of last Session would render in time the presence
of such a torte to Ireland unnecessary, he should not
press for the too quick reduction of that force at present.
The Hon. Member had also called for a reduction of the
military force in the Colunies, and here again he (Sir G.
Murray) would resoi t to the same argument that was ap-
plicable to the case of Ireland. Perhaps, in comparing
the situation of Ireland with Jamaica and our other West
Indian colonies, where the population was divided into
two different classes, he might be drawing the picture with
too strong colours ; but the same arguments at all events
applied here too, fur it was necessary to maintain a large
military force in our colonies to prevent the danger'and
cruelty that might follow from the contests which might
otherwise occur there. The Right lion Baronet, after
expressing his full concurrence in the praise bestowed by
the Right lion. Member for Abingdon upon the regiments
of the line, expressed his doubts that they would be as
fit as the Guards for the service which the latter at pre-
sent performed. The Guards appeared to him the best
force for service in the metropolis; and Its neighliourhoed ;
and as it was necessary that a peculiar body of troops
should be always attached to the person of the Monarch,
the Guards, he conceived, were the best fitted fer that
duty. The Gallant Colonel opposite had recommended
htie employment of native troops in our Colonies, and he
ad referred to the efficiency of the native troops in the
East Indies. But he should recollect that the circum-
stances of the Eest Indies did not all apply to our West
Indian Colonies, and that if the latter possessions were
garrisoned by native troops, such troops would consist of
the worst description of soldiers and officers—that they
would have no feeling for the honour of the British army,
and that they would be swayed by local connexions, in-
stead of entertaining that strong attachment which always
existed in the breast of the British soldier fur the country
of his birth.—(Hear, hear.)
After some observations from an Hon. Member whose
name we could not learn; and a few words from Sir R.
1 INGLIS, the import of which, owing to the noise in the
house, we were quite unable to catch, the Committee
divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment... 93 I Against it 225
• Majority against the amendment... 132
The gallery was immediately cleared again on another
question, the nature of which we could nut learn, but no
division took place.
Mr. lIUME then moved, thst instead of 58,949 men,
the number be 78,848.
Mr. C. N. PALLMER was one of those who had re-
frained from voting with the Member for :Montrose (Mr.
Hume) upon a farmer evening, though he had felt it im-
rossible to -vote against him. He had held a suspended
opinion, fimuded upon the Lope that his Majesty's Mi-