The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-13 00:00:00

FACTORIES.

Lord ASHLEY begged to ask whether the regulations
of the Factory Inspectors of Lancashire had received the
sanction of the law officers of the Crown. And also, whe❑
the Noble Lord opposite intended to introduce the Bill
for the amendment of the Factories Regulation Act ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the regulation; to which the
Noble Lord'had alluded were issued in consequence of the
advice of the law officers of the Crown. Hu was unable
to state when ale Bill to which the Noble Lord alluded
.would be introduced.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Lord J. RUSSELL was now about to move that the
House at its rising do adjourn to Wednesday next ;
and in so doing he would take' the liberty of saying a
word or two on the practice that had formerly prevailed
in that House, and which, as he had been told, there wag
some danger of being revived. The practice he alluded
to was that of presenting petitions, and at the same
time of entering into a discussion. upon them. He
certainly did recollect that that practice was very in-
convenient as regarded the petitions themselves, and
delay was thereby considerably increased, as sometimes
forty or fifty Members were ready to present their
petitions, while one or two Members had raised a dis-
cussion upon theirs.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") That sys-
tem hail very much altered, for the worse the character
of discussions in that House, white great delay was occa-
sioned in the presentation of petitions. He could not hear
that there was the least danger of that practice being re-
vived without expressing his opinion, in which he hoped
the House ,would bear him out, that they were very
much indebted to the Speaker—<Loud cries of " Hear,
hear," from both sides of the House)—for the course
he had taken upon that subject ; for it had tended
at once to produce great facility in the presentation
of petitions, a great saving of time to the House,
and likewise confining the discussions to questions
upon which only they ought to be raised, instead
of the desultory conversations which had formerly taken
place. He was glad to see that he had not called the
attention of Hon. Members to the subject without meeting
with their concurrence. He should now conclude that the
House at its rising should adjourn to Wednesday, the 17th.
Mr. HUME was sorry that the Noble Lord had made
any observation upon the subject, as he thought it ought to
be left to the- House to decide whether it would allow a
discussion to take place on the presentation of petitions at
the time of their being presented. If a rule was to be laid
down that in no instance any discussion should take place,
the House might as well give the public notice that
it was -no use presenting petitions at all.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought it might, perhaps, be as well to have
all petitions arranged, and certain days fixed for their dis-
cussion. He trusted the Noble Lord would consider if
something could not be done upon the subject, for the pur-
pose of saving the time of the House—doing, at the same
time, justice to all petitioners.

Sir J. GRA HA:111 could not concur with the statement
of the Hon. Mtnnber for Middlesex. So far from regretting,
he was happy that the Noble Lord had introduced the
subject. The ancient practice was that no discussion
should take place on the presentation of petitions, and it
was not until 1317 that that practice was departed from. He
could not but express his regret that so much time was
spent in that House in talking upon subjects that were
utterly irrelevant. He thought that the plan that had
been adopted by the Speaker was a most useful one, and
ought to be continued. Every facility had been given by
the Chair to the statement of the facts contained in peti-
titions, but not to debating upon them.—(Hear, hear.)
He cordially joined with the Noble Lord in returning his

thanks to the Speaker for adopting a course which was I
proiseworthy to the character of the House, and which
had facilitat2tl the conducting of the business of the House.
The Speaker had successfully endeavoured to revert to tho
ancient practice, and which rested on safer grounds than any
resolution would do. •He sincerely hoped the result of
what was then passing would be a strict adherence to the
rule which the Speaker bad so successfully established,
and which had proved 'to. be so beneficial.
Mr. WARBURTON did riot wish to sanction the
practice established by the Speaker, on the ground
of antiquity, but he would do so on the reasonableness
of it. It was just as impossible that two bodies should oc-.
eupy the same space as that the Members of that House
should find time for debating on petitions, and for conduct-
ing the ordinary business of the Haase. -He considered
the practice that had been recurred to was a most useful
practice, and he hoped • the thrust. would never break
through it.
Lord PALMERSTON said the rule that had been laid
down was as-much for the interests of the -petitioners as' it
was for the conducting of the public business. ' Although
it was very important for persons to convey their sentiments
to the House in the shape of petitions, yet he did not see
they had any interest in knowing particularly the opinions
which Members of the House might wish to express in debate.
The present plan was the most useful which could be in
troduced, for the Member presenting the petition had the
most perfect right to state whether he agreed in the
prayer of the petition, or whether he dissented from it.
Mr. C. BULLER thought the rule did not go half far
enough. The present plan of petiti ning was a. mere farce
in that House until they were shoved into Mr. Lee's great
bag. Now would it not be better that Members should at
once go up and put them in the bag themselves? Members
cared nothing about petitions except to get quit of them as
soon as possible ; and as the object of the petitioners was
obtained in the Committee to which they were all sent, he
thought that his plan, being much more simple, would be the
best. . .

Lord SANDON agreed with all those who had said
there should be no debate upon petitions, and he was sure
that the House would, in general, bow to the authority of
the Speaker on the subject. The rule, however, ought
not to be, too strict. Occasions might arise in which a dis-
cussion would be useful, and might save time afterwards.
Mr. WAKLEY wished to know precisely how far a
Member was allowed to go? By merely stating the place
whence a petition came and its prayer, it was a useless cere-
mony, and they might _as well put it into the bag at
once without saying a word. He agreed with the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite, that too much time was lost in that
House in useless discussions, but it was not upon petitions.
He was sorry to say that more time had been consumed
.by the Hon. Gentleman opposite opposing justice to Ire-
land, than had ever been done upon petitions.
HAND-LOOM WEAVING.
Mr. MAXWELL—Before the House acceded to the
motion he must take the present opportunity of moving for
leave to bring in a Bill to give publicity to the prices of
hand-loom weaving. He should feel it his duty to persist
in that motion unless the Noble Lord oppo'site, or the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade, gave him an assurance that
the subject would be taken into consideration by the Go-
vernment. He begged to more as an amendment, that
leave be given to bring in a Bill to that effect.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON denied that the Hon.
Gentleman bad experienced any difficulty in bringing for-
ward his motion, or that Government had interposed any
obstacles. He (Mr. P. Thomson) had been there twice on
notice days, when the Hon. Member had given notice of his
intention to bring in the Bill in question. On one occasion
the House had been counted out, and on the other the
Hon. Member was not in his plaCe.—( Hear.) The Hon.
Member not having availed himself of his legitimate op-
portuity, now wished to interpose his Bill by way of an
amendment on the question of the adjournment of the House.
If his Hon. Friend would postpone his notice to an ordinary
notice day, he would have plenty of opportunity for intro-
ducing his measure. He would tell his Hon. Friend candidly
he had no sort ofobjection tothe introduction oftheßill,though
he should vote against it, because he was satisfied no plan
could be devised by means of a Bill by which the
object of his friend would be attained. —(Hear.)
He should like, however, to see the Bill introduced, in
order that his Hon. Friend might be convinced of its im-
practicability. His great objection was to the introduction
of the measure at the present moment, and if his Hon.
Friend persevered in his motion he should certainly vote
against it.
Mr. WORTLEY hoped that the House would do
justice to the suffering hand-loom weavers, by allowing the
Bill to be introduced.
Mr. P. THOMSON explained that he had no objection
to the introduction of the Bill. His objection was to its
being introduced at the present moment.
Sir It. BATESON could not refrain from expressing very
shortly his conviction that the situation of the suffering
class then under the consideration of the house, had not
been attended to by the legislature. Persons in his own
neighbourhood, whom lie knew to be honest and industrious

were suffering privation almost amounting to starvation.
He implored the House not to throw cold water upon the
hopes and wishes of the hand-loom weavers, but to give
them a fair hearing, and allow his Hon. Friend near him to
make his statement.
Mr. GI LLON thought a case of very urgent necessity
had been .made out for the lion. Member for Lanarkshire
making his motion. He had received a letter yesterday
from one of the burghs which he represented, stating that
the hand-loom weavers were fast approaching to a state of
complete destitution. If the Hon. Member was allowed
to proceed, they would be impressed with the conviction
that the Legislature was not indifferent to their distress,
which was of the most appalling description._( Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. BORTH WICK said, although he meant to
support the Hon. Member for Lanarkshire; yet he should
give his vote with a great deal mace satisfaction if
he would make his statement upon some future occasion.
He believed the question before the House was, that the
House at its rising should adjourn till Wednesday. Now,
if the Hon. Member persisted in his motion, in all proba-
bility there would no holidays.
Mr., WARBURTON admitted the good intentions of
the Hon. Member, but at the same time he entertained a
strong objection to the principle of the Bill. When such
was the case—when the principle of a Bill was opposed by
Hon. Members—it was not usual to press its introduction in
this way.
Mr: G. F. YOUNG was favourable to the Bill and the
principle it contained ; but his Hon. Friend ought to make
out a strong case of necessity before he interfered with the
regulations. The plan proposed to be pursued by the Noble
Lord would, in his opinion, tend to excite a feeling in the
minds of the people interested in the Bill, which it was
the duty of the House to do all in its power to allay.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to such a Bill
being brought in if the motion were made at a proper time ;
but he ceitainly did object to its being moved as an amend-
ment when there was another question before the House.
—(Cries of " Divide.")
Lord SANDON hoped the Hon. Member would
allow the Bill to be brought in and read a first time }pro forma.
Mr. HU ME hoped the Noble Lord would not consent
to the Bill being now introduced.
Mr. lIINDLEY moved as an • amendment that the
discussion be postponed to Wednesday next.
After some observation from Mr. M. ATTWOOD,
Mr. MAXWELL said lie Kilt bound to persist in his
motion.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
Fur the adjournment
Against it

Majority fur the adjournment
SLAVE TRADE.

Mr. O'CONNELL wished t-► ask the Noble Lord, the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether he had received any
information relative to the importation of slaves from the
Spanish territories into Texas under the flag of the United
States ?

Lord PALMERSTON had not received any specific
information on that particular point, but he was afraid
the flag of the United States has been used in • the
importation of shivos to the Island of Cuba. The lion.
Member for Weymouth had given his annual notice for the
production of papers, when all the information the Govern-
ment had received would be laid before the House.
Mr. O'CONNELL believed the American flag had
been used in shipping large cargoes of negroes from the
Havannah to the Texas, ar.d he thought the utmost vigi-
lance of the. Government ought to be employed.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
In answer to a question from Sir J. GRAHAM, -
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was his intention on
Friday next to proceed with the Bills he had introduced
for the reform of the criminal law. The Noble Lord also
stated that on the 22d instant his Right Hon. Friend
would move the adoption of the Revolt, on the resolution
of tLe House respecting Church-rates.—( Hear.)
DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH.
Mr. HARCOURT moved for the appointment of a
Select Committee to inquire into the circumstances con-
nected with the pension granted by Parliament to the
Duke of Marlborough.—(llear )
The motion was then put and agreed to.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved the Order of the Day
for the House going into Committee on the Irish Poor-relief
Bill, when
Mr. LUCAS rose tomove as an amendment," That it be
an instruction to the Committee to introduce a provision
for settlement, so as more justly to apportion the pecuniary
charges to be incurred and levied under the name Poor-rates.
The Hon. Member alluded to the inconveniences of the
law of settlement according to the old law of England
upon that subject, and said that the introduction of a si,

molar prir,ciple into Ireland would be it the highest de-
r, re Prejudicial to the interests of that country. Ho
was' Sure his Majesty's Government were anxious to make
the pre sent' Bill as beneficial as possible to Ire-
land, re id he - did not wonder that, knowing the mis-
chief wThich had formerly arisen from the English law of
settleine rut, they had not introduced a settlement into the
provision sof this measure. His wish, however, was to try
if some principle of settlement could not be brought for-
ward, which would have the effect of allocating the charge
of a poor rate, without carrying with it all the inconve-
niences of the English settlement.—(Hear, hear.) It was
clear that, the measure proposed, as it at present stood,
would tend to introduce the greatest inequality of rating—
( Hear, hear)—as would any measure which provided the
same measure of relief for every part of Ireland. lie had
received many letters upon the subject of the Bill from
persons of unquestionable authority upon the subject in
Ireland, and they almost all concurred in stating that it was
there looked upon with the utmost jealousy. Its worst
feature was that it would increase the rates. The defects
perceptible in the English law might be easily removed in
that about to be established in Ireland. All that Hon.
Members would be bound to in voting for the motion was,
to admit that a law of settlement was necessary. He would
propose that any poor person found in any district should
be taken into the workhouse of that district, without
any reference to his own parish. He should be kept there
for a certain time, and the guardians should after that
period make a report on the case. The question of the
pauper's parish would then necessarily arise, and he thought
that a census should be taken within the next four years,
to form a basis of a law of settlement. But, to return to
the case of the pauper taken into flue workhouse, he would
make it the interest of the pauper to declare as explicitly as
possible where his parish lay. He would be asked how he
could effect this. He, proposed to do it in the following
way : if the pauper could not claim a settlement he would
give the Commissioners a power of removing the pauper to
any district which might appear to them be expedient. He
would also give the parish an interest in discovering the
pauper's parish. This could be effected by burthening the
parish in which lie was found with half the expense in-
curred by the pauper's maintenance. In order to prevent
any fraud on the guardians of the parish in removing pau-
pers, he should propose to fix the expense of removal on
the guardians themselves. The removal would soon be felt
to be an expensive amusement, and would not be practised
unless absolutely necessary. The Hon. Gentleman con-
cluded by moving the amendment.
Mr. LYNCH thought it would be bettr to state some
certain plan on the question. The Hon. Gentleman desired
that paupers should be removed to whatever place the
Commissioners might deem proper. That, in his opinion,
was scarcely just ; and he thought the Hon. Member him-
self would be but little pleased were he to see a whole
cargo of paupers landed in his parish some morning when
he least expected it. He could not agree with the Hon.
Member that particular districts would be over-burthened
by the paupers of other localities, because the pauper could
have no inducement to abandon his own parish, and quit a
place where his friends resided to seek an asylum in a more
remote district of the country.
Colonel WOOD thought the law of Scotland, which re-
quired three years' residence in a parish before a settle-
ment could be obtained, the most expedient plan that could
be adopted.
Mr. C. BULLER was glad the Hon. Member for
Monaghan had brought forward his motion on the subject
of the law of settlement ; but while he approved of the
principle, he could not sanction the specific details with
which the proposition was encumbered. It appeared to
him that the great evil with which they had to contend was
the competition which prevailed in Ireland with regard to
the taking of land, and which was carried on, as it was well
known, to a ruinous extent. The law of settlement should
not be mixed up with a compulsory claim, for the two
things had no necessary connection. The Bill would be of
no advantage unless some clause establishing the claim
from settlement was introduced. There was a proposition
for a local rate, and why not establish a system of local re-
lief ? How could guardians properly distribute the relief
to be given unless by some law of settlement they could be
made aware of the characters, the wants, and the deserts of
the applicants ? The Bill was merely an experiment of
a benevolent nature; but, in his mind, it would prove inef-
fective, unless it adopted some simple law of settlement.
Lord CLEMENTS saw many difficulties in the way of
a law of settlement. To attempt to do anything more
than to make a provision for the poor by this Bill would be
hopeless. Any attempt at a law of settlement would
only prove an inducement to landlords to throw their land
.into grass lands and pasturage, and to endeavour to thin
the population.
The O'CO NOR DON was of opinion that the law
could not prove effective unless it comprehended some law
of settlement. The settlement, however, should be regu-
lated by Unions, and not parochially, for there were many
parishes which could not afford to support their poor.
Lord HO WICK said the ,Honourable and Learned
Gentleman should remember that this law was not intended
to act directly on the condition of landlord and tenant. In-
deed the object of the proposed Poor•law was not to raise
altogether, and at once, the whole mass of the Irish popu-
lation. Those who thought to attempt any via thing by
this measure would not only fail of their object but would do
an injury. Those who advocated the proposition for a law of
settlement did not argue that it should establish a positive
claim to relief. Now, this was most inconsistent. It would
prevent the employment of labourers except in their own
districts, and 3et it would make no provision for them other-
wise. The employers, too, would only employ the labour-
ers of their own districts, and if reduced to leave those,
the labourers would be shut out from all other sources.
The Scotch system had been recommended, but the diffe-
rences between the two countries were very great. He
thought the law of settlement would aggravate the evils of
the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland. He would, how-
ever, overlook temporary difficulties, and was willing to con-
sider the question with relation to the time when the system
should be brought into full operation, and all the workhouses
were completed ; and, viewing it in that manner, he thought
the law of settlement unnecessary. The English Poor-law
Commissioners had found the subject one of the greatest
difficulty. The difficulties were, in fact, so great, that the
English measure could be scarcely considered as more than
provisional, and in a few years it would, he had no doubt,
be superseded. The workhouses, at present, in many
places—in Nottingham, Gloucester, and one or. awo other
counties—were indiscriminately thrown open, as mendicity
societies, giving relief to paupers only on their claim of
being destitute, and settlement was not taken into consi-
deration. The Noble Lord concluded by repeating his
opinion that the law of settlement would only add to the
difficulties of the introduction of the New Poor-laws into
Ireland.

-Ir. VILLIERS objected to the instruction to the Com-
mittee, as calculated to give landlords an inducement to
drive paupers from off their estates.

Mr. P. SCROPE understood the main object of the
Bill was to suppress mendicity and outrage, and all those
ills which arose from the total absence of any security for
the means of subsistence among the lower classes in Ire-
land. The state of society in that country was the most
extraordinary that could be conceived : the evidence given.
before the Commissioners was sufficient to show its anoma-
lous character, and that it was such as never existed in any
civilized country. It was there actually proved that men had
gone into a district representing themselves as murderers
when they were not so, simply for the purpose of gaining
that sympathy which was always excited in favour of such
persons. The mode of suppressing those evils was, by af-
fording a guarantee to the people of Ireland that they should
no lunger be allowed to starve. It was proposed to do this
by means of workhouse relief. To render it effectual it
must be given to all applicants. If they did not introduce
the principle of settlement into this Act they must neces-
sari!), have it introduced by-the Board of Guardians or the
Commissioners. Would it not be batter to have an uniform
system all over the country rather than a different system
in different parts ? There was not a country in the world
where there was a Poor-law without a law of settlement.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY never knew of so great an object
being met by so small a contrivance as the present mea-
sure. The evil was admitted, and could scarcely be exalt-,
gerated. Two millions of people, always destitute, and half
the year in a state of starvation, were to be relieved by the
erection of 100 barracks to contain 800 persons each.
With the high spirit that we are always told is constantly
ready to break out. into resistance, this attempt to cage up
Irish energy would convert each of these bastiles into a
barrack for embryo rebels. Then emigration was talked
of ; but what was emigration, but the sending of men, at
an expense of 201. or 30/. each, to find on the other side of
the Atlantic waste lands, of which they had amply enough
to employ them at home ? Confiscation it was said would
be the effect of provision by settlement. If it were so he
Would say, let confiscation come.
Mr. SHAW observed that it was said that if we did not
establish a law of settlement, the Commissioners wou'd esta-
blish it themselves. Let it be so. He wished them to have
a wide discretion on the subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, the question of settlement
was one of great importance. They had to decide, in the
first place, on the legal right ; in the second place, on the
locality ;in the third place, on the plan. For his own
part, he was against any law of settlement, because he was
persuaded that
,it was against the principle of legal right.
What was the object of the proposed measure ? To tran-
quillise Ireland. But would it tend to tranquillise Ireland,
to give one man a right to ask what another man had a
right to refuse ? On these points he perfectly agreed with
the Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dub-
lin. He confessed he shuddered at the experiment of this
Bill, the execution of which he foresaw would be pregnant
with serious difficulties,