The Sun.
London, England, 1830-07-07 00:00:00

BEER BILL.

Thu Duke of WELLINGTON moved the 'second read-
ing of the Beer Bill.. In doing so, he would trouble their
Lordships with a few observations, which he thought it
proper to make in consequence chiefly of some remarks
made by the Noble Duke who presented the petition from
the publicans of London. Their Lordships were aware,
that the subject had been very much discussed in the other
House, and that evidence on the sultect bad been these
taken before a Select Committee. '1 he effect of the Bill,
if passed into a law, would be to ena'de any person to re-
tail beer under a license from the Excise, without a license
from the Magistrate, and there were provisions in the Bill
fur the preservation of peace and good order in those places
where beer should be sold under the authority of this; Bill.
One great object of the measure was to enable the country
at large, and particularly the lower orders, fully to avail
themselves of the advantages to be derived from the other
measure connected with this one—lto meant the for the
Repeal of the Beer Duty. He was aware of the objections
that had been made to this Bill, atone of which had been
mentioned by the Noble Duke to whom he had just refer-
red ; awl if the objections should be further pressed iu the
course of any discussion that might arise this evening, he
hoped for their Lordships' indulgence while he adverted to
such topics in reply as might occur to hint. At present
the objections to the Bill appeared to hint to resolve them-
selves into two points; first, the danger with which the
measure was likely to be attended—with reference to the
peace and good order of the community, front the permis-
sion given to sell beer at any place littenaed by the Ex6se,
without any license from the Magistracy ; and, secondly,
the great injury which would result from it to the great
body of publicans who had invested their property in public-
houses licensed by the Magistrates. As to the first objec-
tion, their Lordships would find, on examination of the
Bill, that it contained a variety of regulations which were
calculated to remove all reasonable apprehension et any
serious danger to the peace and good order of the comMit-
nity. There were provisions for preventing the hOuses
from being kept open at improper hours, more parti-
cularly on the Sundays, and other regulations for the
prevention of disturbance and riot were enforced under
very severe penalties. As to the alleged injury to
the property of those who had already invested their
capital in the public-houses licensed by the magistrates, it
ought to be recollected that they had hitherto enjoyed'
large profits from the monopoly of this trade, and that the
Bill was confined to beer alone, and did not trend, on the
monopoly which they had in the sale of wise and spirits.
Besides, they would have their full share of the advantage
to be derived from the abolition of the beer duty, and they
would, in all probability, gain more by the increased ash!
of beer which would follow that abolition, than they would
lose lof the throwing open of the trade. It was o4iouti
that in the competition, these public-houses would have
great advantages over other houses, by the superior memo
modation which they could afford. He was convinced
that the measure would be attended with the most bene-
ficial consequences to the lower orders, by enabling them
to think it superior article at a touch cheaper rate titan
they had been acenetomed to do, and he did not anticipate
that there could be any wry serious objection made to the
second reading of the Bill.
The Duke of RICHMOND thought that he was entitled
to snake some observations in presenting a petition from
4,000 of tint publicans of the metropolis, complaining of
the want of a chime in the Bill to prevent the retailers of
beer under the Excitor license front all iwing the articles to
be consumed at their own houses. lie had stated, and he
repeated what he had said, that he was no enemy to the
principle of the Bill, but his objection was, that the ie.
Wiens of beer, under the Excise license, wore to be allowed
to permit the beer to be consumed at their own houses, to
the great disadvantage of the publican. Ile also objected
to the early period at which the Bill was to come into ope.
ration, and thought that alonger time ought to be allowed
to the publicens who bail vested rights in their houses t
prepare for the change. This was a consideration of very
great weight, when their Lordships were dealing with the
interests of 20,000 British subjects.
The Earl of MALMESBURY observed, that the profits
made by the publican* were very far front being so large
as the Noble Duke (Wellington) had represented them to
be. lie was sure that its the country, at least, they were
by nu means so large, and that on the contrary the business
in general could afford little beyond the bare moons of
subsistence ; and, then, as to the stecommielations, there
was nothing in this Bill to prevent those retailing beer'under
the Excise license front having quite as good mammoths-
lions as the publicans licensed by the Magistrates. With
reference to the Bill fir the Repeal of the Beer Duty, he
concurred in the principle of the remission of from three to
four millions of taxes—.what he believed would be bene-
ficial to the whole canuntiaity, and particularly to the; lower
orders, But then the question was, what taxes ought to be
repealed and its to that he must say, that it appeared ta
him that there were many things with rt spent to which
three millions of taxes might be repealed much more bum-
tidally than the repeal of the beer duty. Vor instance, the
repeal of the duties on candles, on snap, and on windows,
would be much more beneficial. As to the effects of the
measure on the existing body of publicans, the question
was one of
.very great importance with reference to the
property which would be Mil:del, for the amount it
property invested in theta public-houses was immense.
In the metropolis alone there was good reason to
believe that no less a sum then thirty millions was
so invested ; purl yet, by this Bill, whielt es it at vegeta
stood was to come Into operation in October, Only a
'sederl of about three months was to be distorts) to the
publican* to prepare fin- this peat change. The pub
limns, if the Bill passed in its reedit shape, would he
placed in the most ruinous 1:01141410O. IR.() that, by wens
of this Bill, the remission of taxation, when an accom-
panied, would be to them no advantage, but, on the con-
miry, would be attended with great Beakless the
remission of taxation might to ripply to the whole of the
country equally, and the remission, in this ease, was most
unequal. It was applicable principally to the lout,
towns; and then, as to the counties, in Middleies and
Surrey it would operate as a remission of eleven 'Willow,
and sixpence per head, while, in the whole of the rest of
England it would operate only es a remission of four shil
lingo
class of the community,ebstaneant the clasts of earicul-
There wet a Milt valuable
uhinhdoBoirrele,"4lll:ll:o"who7t:l,l. benefit verylittle in pivot.,
Lion by the remirellon of taxation in this way. They
toltusWeirethe'
would benefit at feed as much, or more, by the eethwow;
coorurzeyalpiiisrfotlz dutytoo oat
enittiT
oaut: trot!
tini:iii)te•tl::,
remarkehle circtiouttanee, that in the ton years up to 1730
hOO,OOO more spellers of malt were consumed than in the
ten years up to 1830. That must be Owing to the aot)
for there could be no slotibt but that the io popol ion had ii 4;
creased, probably one-sthird, in the course of the butt cen-
wry ; and certainly the gentry in the country bad in-

•
ie
, f'''s. - •, • ;
creased in that or a larger proportions • He Co4tainly felt
himself called upon to propose an antiii went. to this sno-
lion, although it was not his intent4elqpreas ittit a divi.
sion, as the best opportunity fur distiliWiiou would he of
forded when the fill came to be commitial. But he t 11040,1
it essential that on this subject witnesses iliould be exa ,
mined by their Lordships on oath. It wsi‘true that the •
matter had beer investigated in the other House by the tate
!flirtation of witnesses, and the result of that examination
was before their Lordships. But the investigation was very
imperfect,' They had not examined Magistrate., who,
from their knowledge of the ceuntly, could give the hest
information; hut only retail brewers, and people of that de-
scription, awl one Scotch Member of Parliament; and to
this latter circumstance it was mob:ll4y owing that th.•
Bill was not extended to Scotland, Mr. Houle Drummond
being of opinion that they bad no occasion for it in Sew,.
land. It had been said that the effect of the Bill would
be to.cause a much superior liquor to be brought to ash-,
but in his opinion it would be attended with wtsuch rffect.
On the contrary, he thought the beer would be worse in
'stead of better. He could not help thinking that the Ma •
gistratea were levelled at by this Bill, but although they
had heen the subject of much obloquy in some quilt ters, they
were much better guardians of the interests and the missal
of the lower orders than Excise olliceat, who would look to
nothing but the increase of the Revenue. This messes,
would be greatly in favour of the Excise officers, lint it I
would be absolutely necessary to extend the machinery 1,11
the Excise to a most enormous degree in order to prevent 1
the frauds to which otherwise this measure must give rise. '
His object, hoWever, in moving an amendment at preset,'
wee, in order that his objections to the Bill might appeal i
in seine shape on the Journals of the House. lie there- I
fore prepied that the Bill, instead of being read a a COW;
time this evening, should be read a second time on Toes
ilsy next, and that in the mean time a Select Committee
be appointed to examine into the regulations now in fore'
respecting the lode of beer, anti what alterations mi,tht be I
beneficially adopted, &c. t

The Earl of FALMOUTH did not 'corteur with tilt
Noble Duke in the.opinitm that the present measure wool
he conducive to the nava:Ago of the lower milers. In
his opitrion it bad a direct tendency to lead to serious dis.
turbancet and a relaxation of dm morals of the people
It would also prove a most grievous injury to those who
in this metropolis had :IQ millions invested 'in public
houses, licensed by the Magistrates. This latter ground
of objection was a strong one, bat he confessed that whin
weighed principally with him was the mischievous eiTeet.
with which it would be attended, witk reference to
morals of the lower orders. It was unnecessary for bin.
to say much on the subjnt, after the observations of Li
Noble Friend (Lord Malmesbury) on the opposite Ilench,
who, contrary to what many others did, resided so mind,
in the country, and had the opportunity of being so we'l
acquainted with the subject. But dune was one circum-
stance which he considered as of touch importaiwe,
which hail not been touched upon. Thu Noble Doke hail
said that the publicans would still have the monopoly ci
the sale of wine and spirits ; but there were "MO pub.
lieu, in this. country who sold beer only, and to. I. uu
no license for the sale of wine of 011 it it% 110 COnCurnol
with his Noble Friend that this was a sacrifice a I

morals of the people fur the sake of the revenue; caul
thst it was much better that they Should be under th,
controul of Magistrates than of excise (deers.
Lord TEYIIIIAM understood the object of the Bill to
lie, to atrird some relief to the distress under which the
lower orders bad lately laboured, and he hoped that
eters would find the repeal of thy liter duty so tenet:viol
in that respect, that they would consider whether co,
malt duty also might nut be repealed. As to the pre. „?
perry which bad been invested in public-housev, be could
not understand how this could lie called a vested right el :-
interest. Thu principal advance made was the sum
allowed fur the good-will of lionseg, of which, howevet,
the btr+itiess depended on the discretion of the Magistrates ;
and this, therefore, could not Ist properly considered su4
s vested interest as the Legislature w 4,1 bound poetical,ih
to protect. As to the effect of the measure net the hoer^
orders, the houses which would be opened eJr the s tie t
beer by the authority of this Hill would be as much tindit
eontroul as the public-houses which actually existed. As
to what had been said about the diminution of the con.
sumption of malt, he would observe that the couhump.
tion of hops also had diminished; but he hoped tint the
result of the measures in progress would be, to increase
the con-umption of both, and do away with the adultera-
tion of beer.

The Duke of WELLINGTON requested permission ii, r
say a few words. It appeared to him that the object of ~
this Bill had been in some measure mistottlerstood. This iiii
was not a question of preference as to the remission of ow • ;
tax as compared with the remission of *nether. The till' rt
jerk was t i regulate the beer trade, and to extoul the kl
power to retail it to Houses lieensed by the Excise, instead ,
of confining it to houses licensed by the Magistrates ; and
this measure was necessary in order to give the people the
full benefit of the repeal of the beer duty; and the bene•
fit would be a very guest one to the lower orders, for lo
means of these Ili& it was proliside that the price of best. ,'
would be diminished by twopence per pot, or about forty, Li
five per cent. The advantage would not he very great to
their Lordships, or peolde in the higher vtatione ; but thi : I
lower orders would derive the most benefit from the twa-
sure, and for that reason it bad been selected. The °Nee/ , •
of the present Bill warn to give the people the advantage of
the other measure. He apprehended no danger to the r
peace and good order of the community from the prevent
Bill, as the necessary provisions had been introduced to l
prevent the peace of the community from being broken,
and the morale of the people from being injured, If their )''
Lordshipewould examine Minutely the evidence given hos ;:,;
fore the Select Cotrmittee of the other House, they would i*,,
see that there was no danger to be apprehended from tlit eel
want of controul by the Magistrates. As to the putts p
Henna, he still considered that they had derived great pro. ,
fits from the monopoly, nod if that was trenched upon In • ,
this Bill, they would receive ample compensation by the ,k 1;
increased sale of! beer, in consequence of the redaction of •-;
price which would be ooeasiuned by the other measure kit 14
the repeal of the Beer Bill.
The Earl of MALMESIWItY explained. This men. t'l
sure would not have the &erg of doing away the menu
roly. At present all was monopoly, owing to the gwat ..,
accumulation of capital in the hands of individuals, and ~
there Was no more monoprily in publieehoueet than its ~..
other propeety; ' The guest bretvers met and fixed the
price of porter, and enforced the price by their command
~,
of the rublio.hOuaes. ' This, to he sure, WO a mottopol) iq.
depending on the great command of capital enjoyed ii.s t!'
the principal brovera. But where there.was a great its. !1
ceemlation of capital in the bands of a few itinivititials, 41
thin kind of monopoly would always •prevaiL !
. . . .

Lord ELLENI36ROUGII observed, that what Iftl
been stated by the Noble Earl himself afforded moon
reason for an alteration in the present system. The Wide
Earl had not sufficient data for his osiculaihms relative it.
the diminntion of the consumption of malt.
The Earl of ALALItIESIIIIIIV said that he could not
conceive how an inference could he better Manded than
that Which was derived from taking two periods, caul. or
ten years, at the distance of a century from each other. I t
was clear that Om population, and particularly the num-
ber of the gentry-, had int:teemed, , and yet the consumption,
of malt and strong beer, or what had been galled the t 44;•
brown alt., Mid diminished.
The Doke of RICHMOND contended that the li.terest
in the public-hototes, was a vested right, and ought In 1w
protected SS such, as mush AI other vested rights,
Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE, on the other WILL main-
Wiled that an interest which depended on that will ef the
Magistrate could never he properly called vested. The
person who took a puhlie.house knew that it depended on
the discretion of the Alagistrate, exercised every year,
whether the license to hit house shoehl ho eentintted ; and
how entail this be called a vested interest t
The Duke of RICHMOND odd that it was abreast the
invariable practice of the Magistrate to renew the Homo.,
in case the piety bed behaved well, and therefore he atilt
enntended that in Week this was a vested interest.
'Elko amendment of the Earl of Mat.stearto ter wws then
put and negatived, and the Dill was read a second, time tool
ordered to be committed WI Thursday nest.
The Howie then proceeded with the eridelatie au thu East
!tetrad Disfranchisement Bill.—Adjourned.