The Sun.
London, England, 1863-04-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock,
NEW MEMBER.—HALIFAX.
Mr. STANSFELD took the oaths and his seat.
The Lords' amendments to the Leeds Gas Bill were con-
sidered and agreed to.
The following bills were considered and ordered to be
read a third time :—Elsecar, Wentworth, and Hoyland
Gas—and Tees Conservancy.
SECOND READINGS.
The following bills were read a second time :—Cork and
Kinsale Junction Railway, and Foohabers and Garmouth
Railway.

CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.
Sir J. TRELAWNY moved the second reading of this
bill. He regretted the absence of the right hon. gentle-
man the member for North Wiltshire (Mr. S. Estcourt)
from ill health, who had proposed a bill with a view of ef-
fecting a compromise on this important matter. Parliament
had virtually given its assent to the repeal of church-rates,
and it w-.s high time that some satisfactory settlement was
arrived at. In 1861, it would be recollected that the bill
for the total abolition of church-rates was only lost
by a majority of one, and that the veto of the right hon.
gentleman in the chair. Strictly speaking, church rates
were the mosquitos of the Church of England, for they
were a perennial source of irritation. He disclaimed any
intention to injure the Church or to separate it from the
State, He had done all he could to bring about a substan-
tial compromise, but he regretted his endeavours in this
direction had not received very liberal support. He con-
fessed he could not understand the language and policy of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of church
rates. The right hon. gentleman advocated civil and re-
ligious liberty in all church matters, but nevertheless
he did not vote either way in connection with the abolition
of church rates. (Hear, hear.) He trusted the right hon
gentleman would explain his conduct. He hoped hon.
members would cease to make this subject a stalking horse
for their personal aggrandisement or ambition, and proceed
at once and finally to a settlement of a matter which had re-
mained open and unsettled too long, Strictly speaking, the
church was the church of the people, and in most churches
a certain number of seats were set apart for those who were
unable to pay for them, but in some cases, as in Manchester,
some of those seats have been let, and it could hardly be
expected that in such circumstances people would pay church
rates with good feeling. lie was at a loss to understand
the grounds on which the hon. gentleman opposite
(Mr. G. Hardy) proposed to meet his bill with a
direct negative, without offering any substantial amend -
ment. Now was the time for those on the other side to
accept the olive leaf, and at one, to come to a defi .ite un-
derstanding on the matter. Those who now opposed a
settlement would have to answer for their conduct at the
hustings.
Sir C. DOUGLAS seconded the motion.
Mr. G. HARDY rose to move as an amendment that
the bill be read a second time that day six months. He
should leave the sight hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, whose mind was certainly undergoing some
extraordinary changes, to explain his conduct with respect to
church rates. (Laughter.) He held that in no case were
church rates unjust; they had been levied for 1,000 years,
and with the consent of the owners of the land But for them
we should not probably be enjoying the blessings of religion,
nor the bent- fi to of education, for it must never be forgotten
that the Church fostered and popularised the art of printing.
The bill proposed to take away a quarter of a million easily
collected, and indispensable for maintenance of the fabrics
and their pastors. Let Disk enters leave the Church alune, for
voluntaryism was defined by one of its chief supporters as
the principle of non-interference with Church or State—
and strive to emulate her in good works. (Hear, hear.)
The supporters of voluntaryism belied and vitiated their
principles in sending up petitions, until the table groaned
with them, asking the State to interfere with the observance
of the Sabbath, but they would not allow the slightest in-
terference with themselves. (Hear, hear.) The best
argument in favour of the retention of Church-rates was
that they were maintained in the large towns with which
the supporters of this bill were connected, (Hear, hear.)
And he therefore charged those who supported the bill as
thus acting inconsistently. The hon. baronet appealed to
the decisions of two Parliaments on these rates, but it must
not be forgotten that the present Parliament had
agreed, by resolution, that these ancient rules ought not to
be abrogated until a remedy ware devised in the nature of
a substitute. To be consistent the house should reject this
bill, (Hear, hear.) Those who supported this bill con-
sidered that the Church ought not to be maintained in con-
nection with the State ; those who opposed it entertained a
diametrically opposite opinion : hence there could be no
compromise on account of this diversity of their sentiments.
The abolitionists could give them nothing in return; they
proposed to take the oyster and give the Church the shell.
The noble lord the member for 'Woodstock (Lord A.
Churchill) had put a notice on the paper, as an amend-
ment, that the churchwardens and overseers should be
empowered to repair churches and to levy rates for that
purpose, but it expressly stated that they should have no
power of enforcing this requisite levy. (Hear, hear.)
Nothing could be more absurd than that. The voluntary
principle would not suffice for the repair of churches;
voluntaries had peculiar modes of raising funds by anni-
versaries sad jubilees for their own purposes, but this could
not be done in connection with the Church. (Hear. hear.

IWhere would they find churchwardens, whose duties are
at present no sinecure, to discharge the duty of collecting
voluntary subscriptions for the repair of churches ? Why,
they would not find men to discharge such a duty. (Hear,
heat.) The clergy, at this time, were overburdened with
charitable claims ; and actually were instrumental in edu-
cating the great mass of the rising generation—educating,
too, the children of dissenters who would not contribute to
the funds. (Cheers.) It bad been shown that when pc,.
verty introduced itself into a district the dissenting chapels
were sold and the pastors emigrated into richer districts—
(hear, hear)—but wherever the Church stood, there she
must stay and her vastors work. (Cheers.) The opp ‘nents
of the uhurch would not succeed in alienating the affections
of the people from h. He advised the dissenters to pursue
their good works without interfering with the Church.
Mr. MI'I'FORD seconded the
amendment.
Sir C. DOUGLAS supper red the bill. He was a mem-
ber of the committee of 1851, which' recommended
an alteration of the law with respect to the maintenance of
churches, and the adoption of the bill would put an end to
much bickering and ill feeling out of doors. The bill was
based upon the prin ipte of the right ot private judgment.
He denied that it was a child of the Liberation Society--
indeed, its principles had been adopted long before that
society was formed. There had been no change of public
opinion with respect to church rates, for the recent peti-
tions presented against them exhibited a large majority of
signatures over those in favour of them. And the feeling
of the house, as testified in its votes, denoted that there was
a growing opinion in favour of the abnegation of these
rates. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE opposed the bill, saying that, church
rates were originated 500 years ago by their Saxon fore-
fathers for tha purpose of repairing the sacred fabrics in
wh ch they worshipped their Maker, and that no better
mode of doing so had since, or even now, been devised. If
a hole in the roof of a sacred edifice was discovered it was
repaired out of the rates levied for that and other purposes.
It he understood voluntaryism rightly it was that its pro-
fessors should do as they liked, and that those who
differed with them should act in the same spirit ;
but they did not act thus, for the professors
of voluntaryism did not stop short of a little.
For instance, Mr. Miall at a recent conference
openly declared that the abolition of church rates was but
as a grain of sand to a mountain compared to their ultimate
ends in connection with the Church—(hear, and laughter)
—further, the Nonconformists meant to get possession ot
the fabric of the Church "stick by stick." (Hear, and
laughter.) When examined before the House of Lords on
the matter, Mr. Miall declared, in reply to a question as to
what he would do with the churches, that he would turn
them to some purpose of utility. (Hear.) Truly, people of
this calibre would whitewash Westminster Abbey, and
turn it either into a factory or a poor-house. (Hear, hear.)
He characterised the conduct of Earl Russell and the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer as vacillating, and as giving undue
weight to pressure from without. He agreed with Earl
Russell that the Church was linked to the Throne, and that
she could not be injured without injuring the Throne.
(Hear, hear.) The Conservatives sitting on that side of the
house intended to oppose all attacks of this nature on the
Church, no matter from what quarter they came.
Sir G. GR 6Y said when the income tax was first under
saying
he would consider the tax a veryd was exempted—(hear, hear, and
lan
discussion much merriment was caused by a member for
an
noold Isiah
one,
provided
laughter)—the ecclesiastical commissioners providing for
the repairs of the fabrics. The hon. and learned gentleman
i county I
appeared to forget, when he spoke in favour of Conserva-
tism, that church rates were abolished in Ireland. (Minis-
terial cheers.) He thought that some of his taunts might
have been spared. (Hear, hear)
Hon. members opposite
argued as if church rates were paid in all parishes ; why,
practically, nearly one-half of the populace paid no church
rates at all. (Hear, hear.) A distinguished member on
the opposite side (Lord Stanley) had, too, supported the
abolition of these rates. He was in favour of the abolition
ef the compulsory payment of church rates by those who
objected on principle to do so; so far he should give in his
adhesion to the bill and support its second reading, reserv-
ing to himself to abstain from voting for the third reading
if the bill was not then framed so as to effect a spec es of
compromise of this nature. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS opposed the bill, saying that not-
withstanding the hon. baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) asseve-
rated that be desired to do nothing to injure the Church,
yet he
systematically voted for all the extraordinary mea-
sures brought forward by the Dissenters.
Sir J. TRELA.WNI explained that he voted against
the Burials Bill.
Lord J. MANNERS said that this was the only excep-
tion to the hon. naronet's invariable endorsement of all the
;nroads of the Dissenters upon the property of the Church
of England. A more fatal blow could not be struck at the
principle cal self g
- overnrnent than by the adoption of
this in, asure. (Hear, hear.) He appealed to those on his
side of the house to do their duty, and to those who had
voted on former occasions for a similar bill to retrace their
steps and reject this bill.
Lord A. CHURCHILL explained the nature of the
amendment he had put on the paper, should the bill ever
get as far as a committee, as calculated to provile for the
repair of the fabrics, and to constitute an excellent substi-
tute for the church rates proposed to be abolished. His
reason for omitting to seek power to enforce payment of a
rate for church repairs was this, that he objected to find
means to repair the fabrics at the bands of the Sheriffs
officer, or, indeed, to compel involuntary support. (Hear,
hear.) He should therefore vote for the second reading.
Mr. WALTER declared that he had no connection or
sympathy with the Dissenters. The Dissenters had had
very many opportunities of ridding themselves of the pay-
ment of church rates, but had not done so, nay they used
the church, and now sought admission to the graveyards.
He deprecated leaving the support of a church to the will
of a minority of a district. nil, would be a humiliating