The Sun.
London, England, 1830-03-12 00:00:00

bringing in the Bill. A clinve was inserted at the
suggestion of the 13ishop of BATH ar-d WELLS ;
and an amendment to one of the clauses by the
Bishop of LONDON.
Adjourned at a Quarter past Six.

the Speech :—" it is with increased regret that
his Majesty again adverts to the condition of the
Portuguese. Monarchy ; hut his Majesty commands
us to repeat his determination t 6 use every effort
to reconcile conflicting interests, and to remove the
evils which press so heavily upon a country, the
Isprosperity of which must ever b• an object cf
is Majesty's solicitude." At the commencement
of the present Session the Speech states that " his
Majesty laments that lie is unable to announce to
you the prospect of a reconciliation between the
Princes of the House of Braganza." From these
communications I suppose that a negociation was
established with Our Allies, with a view of recon-
ciling the differences which exist between the
branches of the House of Braganza, for we are led
to believe that such a negotiation was established ;
and frorii the speech last quoted we learn that his
Majesty's hopes have been disappointed : the natu-
ral inference is, that the negociation failed. But
since this, other circumstances have occurred, and
we are told in a docomelit to which I know it is
not quite regular to allude—nevertheless the docu-
ment is made known to all Europe—l mean, my
Lords, the communication of the King of France,
at the opening of the Chambers on the 2d of this
month. In that communication I find the French
King informs his Chambers that " at the present
moment he is, in concert with his Allies, carrying
on negociations, the object of which is to effect be-
tween the Princes of the House of Braganza a re-
conciliation necessary to the tranquility of the Pe-
ninsula." Now, my Lords, the questions which I
wish to put to the Noble Earl are these—First,
whether the negociations originally established in
1829, and alluded to in the Speech at the opening
of the present Parliament, are terminated or not ?
Secondly, whether, in the negociations entered into
by his Majesty with his Allies, France entered into
negociations for a similar purpose,or whether France
has some ulterior purpose ? Also, whether we are
principal parties to the second negociation, or have
a secondary part in the negociation, in which, as
principals, we failed ? The third question relates to
another branch of the subject equally irregular to
allude to, but to which, nevertheless, I feel it right
to call the attention of the House. My Lords,
your Lordships well know that his Majesty's Mi-
nisters have invariably given as a reason for not
producing papers respecting negociations,when pend-
ing, that it would be improper so to do. Now, I
wish to know, if the negociations are actually pend-
ing, whether they are carried on in concert with
our Allies, and whether the Kings of France
and Spain are parties ? These, my Lords, are the
questions I wish to put to the Noble Earl. There
is, I may add, my Lords, some discrepancy between
the Speech of the King of France, and that de-
livered by the Lords Commissioners at the opening
of the present Parliament to this House, in one par-
ticular. In the Speech of the King of France it is
stated " that the war in the East is at an end; the
moderation of the conqueror, and the friendly inter-
vention of the Powers by preserving the Ottoman
empire from the disasters which threatened it, having
maintained the balance of Europe, and strengthened
the ancient relations of the different states." Now,
in the Speech of the Commissioners, a satisfaction is
expressed at the conclusion of the war between those
two Powers, but I do not understand that it was
brought about on the part of his Majesty. Whether
there is any omission in the Commissioners'
Speech on that respect I am not able to say.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—In answer to the
questions which the Noble Lord has proposed, I beg
to observe, that the negociations to which he has al-
luded, with the Emperor Don Pedro, in the summer
of 1828, were not brought to that favourable close
that was desirable—they had not been attended
with so satisfactory a result as could have been
wished. Properly speaking, no negociations had
been carried on, inasmuch as our Plenipotentiary
went to the Brazils, but was referred to London, it
being considered by the Emperor inconvenient to
carry on negociations on both sides the At-
lantic at the same moment. With respect to
the negociations in which we entered with the
King of France, that is a different transaction.
'We certainly act in concert with the French
Government, but by no means in a secondary man-
tier. Quite the reverse. A communication has been
made, in concert with the French Government, in
reference to the reconciliation of the Princes of the
House of Braganza. As to the ulterior purposes of
that Government I know nothing, if any such exist,
but I do not think there are.—(The Noble Earl here
paused.)
Lord HOLLAND suggested an answer respect-
ing pending negotiations.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—Pending negotia-
tions ! I beg to say, my Lords, that they could
scarcely be called negotiations. A communication
has been made, in concert with the King of France
and with our Allies, to the Court of Brazil ?
Lord HOLLAND—The Court of Brazil ?
The Earl of ABERDEEN signified assent.
With respect to what the Noble Lord has said, that
papers are refused when negotiations are pending,
it must be obvious to your Lordships that such a
course is the proper one. When the time comes
for the production of the papers alluded to, the Noble
Lord will see a very good reason for not producing
them at the present moment. With respect to the
passage in the Speech of the King of France quoted
by the Noble Lord, I do not think it bears the con-
struction which the Noble Lord has given it. Our
endeavours to bring about a peace between the two
powers alluded to have been unceasing, and I think
it will be found that we have been instrumental in
causing peace. We have strongly urged the neces-
sity of peace to both parties, and what effect our
repeated remonstrances have had will be ultimately
seen. I will,. however, say that neither party ne-
glected attending to them, but undoubtedly the
Turkish Government appeared a length of time
insensible of the situation in which they were placed.
Lord HOLLAND—I am not certainly prepared,
my Lords, with any motion on this subject, but I
must be permitted to make one or two observations
in consequence of what the Noble Earl has said.
In the Speech from the Throne, at the opening of
the Sessions of 1829 it is said, that " his Majesty
has entered into negociations with the head of the
House of Braganca. Now, my Lords, I wish to
know whether that negociation is concluded. I think
from what the Noble Earl has said that the nego-
ciation is concluded, and the one in conjunction with
the King of France is a separate and new one.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—The Noble Lord is
not quite correct in describing this as an entirely
new negociation, inasmuch as the same object is in
view in both. The negociation entered-into imme-
diately with the Emperor Don Pedro had arrived at
that state that there was very little prospect of a
favourable issue. With respect to the second nego-
elation with the Court of France and our other
Allies, I can only say that it is entered into with
concord between the two countries.
Lord HOLLAND—Then the Court of France
was not a party to that negociation mentioned in the
King of England's Speech, but it is to the nego-
ciation now existing. Ido not wish to ask any im-
proper questions, but I should like to know whether
the Court of Spain is a party ?
The Earl of ABERDEEN—In answer to the
Noble Lord, I beg to say that the Court of Spain is
no party to the negociation. The Court of Austria
has been a party from the first of the transaction. I
may add, my Lords, that through the whole of these
negociations the Court of France has had cognizance
of what we have done from the first.
The conversation here dropped.
The Marquis of BUTE presented a petition (in
the absence of a Noble Friend) from Renfrew, com-
plaining of distress, and suggesting the abolition of
taxes which press on the working classes.
Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill was reported
with one amendment.
On the motion of the Earl of Rossi.vil, the Bill
was ordered to be engrossed.
The Marriage Validating Bill passed through a
Committee.,
•leethei Committee Lord HOLLAND eulogised the
Right Rey. Prelate (the Bishop of London) for

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(LAST NIGHT.)
Mr. NEELD, the Member for Gatton, took the
oaths and his seat. . .

Mr. WILLIAM PEEL presented the 22d Re-
port on Public Charities, and also some papers re-
lating to Vaccine Institutions.
Mr. HOBHOUSE gave notice that he would
on Thursday next move for certain returns from the
Bank of England, in continuance of former returns.
He thought fit to give notice, because he understood
the Bank had refused to comply with the request.
The Hon. Member also presented a petition from
Walter Freeman, a clerk in the Navy-office, relative
to the currency.—Laid on the table.
Mr. NORTH presented a petition from the tan-
ners of the city of Kilkenny, against the Leather Tax.
Lord JAMES STUART presented a petition
from Cardiff, against the regulations respecting coals
carried coastways.
Sir C. COLE supported the petition, which was
laid on the table and ordered to be printed.
Sir THOMAS FREEMANTLE moved for a
return of amount of moneys paid out of the Exche-
quer to High Sheriffs of counties on account of ex-
traordinary charges, distinguishing each county, &c.
—Ordered.

BEER LICENSING SYSTEM.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON rose for the put
pose of presenting a petition from a very numerous
and respectable body of persons—the licensed vic-
tuallers of the city of London and its vicinity ; the
petition was signed by 11,000 persons interested in
the sale of beer by retail. He considered it un-
necessary to state to the House the large property
embarked by these individuals in their business; it
must be known to every Member present. He
would only state the fact that, in the city of London
and its vicinity, there were about 4,300 licensed
victuallers, and the capital embarked by them could
not be estimated at less than one million sterling.
He would wish to impress this fact on the memory
of lion. Members, who would shortly have to decide
upon the important question whether the beer trade
was to be thrown open or not. If the alteration
should take place he felt convinced that one-half of
this industrious and respectable class of persons
must be ruined, and the property of the other re-
duced 50 per cent. in value, whilst the good likely
to arise to the public in general was very uncertain.
The consumption of beer had fallen off considerably,
he would allow, but he did not attribute this to any
fault of the publicans ; it had been produced, in
some degree, by the reduction of the du•ies on
wine, spirits, and coffee. But, above all, he con-
sidered as the principal cause of this diminished
consumption the very heavy duty upon malt.—
(Hear, hear.)—lie considered that the publicans
could not be blamed on account of the monopoly in
the sale of beer; it was a monopoly which had ex-
isted for centuries, and been the cause of creating
a fictitious property in licensed houses. The pub-
licans had embarked large sums under the existing
state of the laws, and it was now sought, by a
change in those laws, to deprive them of the greater
portion of their property. The petitioners prayed
that they might be heard by Counsel, and allowed
to call evidence against throwing open the trade.
Mr. Alderman WOOD supported the petition.
He stated that such was the decline in the sale of
beer, that one-half of the publicans had not trade
sufficient to live upon at present. He did not con-
sider that by throwing open the trade any benefit
would arise to the public. The price could not be
reduced so long as the heavy malt tax was conti-
nued—a duty. which pressed with such dispropor-
tion upon the working classes, compared with the
rich ; for, whilst the gentleman paid only a duty of
25 per cent. on his claret, the industrious working
man had to pay 150 per cent. upon his humble be-
verage.—( Hear.)
Sir JOHN NEWPORT felt confident the open-
ing, of the trade would be of great service; not only
in this country, but also in Ireland.
Mr. G. H. DAWSON considered that the peti-
tioners were a body of persons deserving the great-
est consideration. tie should reserve his arguments
for a proper occasion, and feel satisfied, without
protracting the debate, by moving that the petition
he referred to the Committee now sitting on Beer

Licenses.
Mr. F. BUX I'ON considered that if the mono
poly in the sale of beer had been an evil, neither the
brewers nor the publicans were the cause of it. The
evil originated in the excessive taxation of this par-
ticular article—one which fell so heavily, and out of
all proportion, on those the least able to bear it. He
would not go so far as to say that the public did not
suffer in some degree from the monopoly, but he
would merely state what the taxation was, to show
how that monopoly was caused. He would show
that there Naas nothing taxed so highly as this cheap
beverage of the poor.—(Hear, hear.)—The tax on
the rich man's champagne amounted to 27 per cent.
and that on claret to 28 per cent., on Pert wine to
26 per cent., whilst the working man and industrious
artisan paid on beer 165 per cent. —(Hear, hear.)
This was one portion of the effect produced by this
unequal imposition. In another shape it still op-
pressed the poorer class, whilst it left nearly un-
touched the rich. If a gentleman consumed in his
family a quartcr of malt, it cost him 205., whilst to
the artisan it would amount to 555.—( Hear, hear.)
It was to these causes of unequal taxation that he
attributed the evil, and not from any imaginary ad-
vantages arising to the publican. With respect to the
diminished consumption of beer, be considered that
it had been principally produced by the reduction of
the duty on spirits. The contemplated change he, as
one of the porter brewers, was ready to admit, would
be attended with a heavy loss in their trade—but not
one but what they could withstand; and, if the trade was
to be thrown open, the brewers did not fear a fair com-
petition. But to the publican, who had embarked
his capital in the purchase of the privilege of carrying
on his trade, it must he attended with the most
ruinous consequences. If this interference could be
at all justified on public grounds, he hoped to see
the spirit of free trade carried to the fullest extent
—(Hear)—and not for the country gentleman to
continue his advantage over the poor man. If free
'trade is to be the order of the day,The hoped it
would be permitted to purchase corn and hops in
foreign countries, where they could be purchased
much cheaper; and, with respect to hops, of a finer
description than in this country.—( Hear.)
Mr. C. BARCLAY gave his Majesty's Govern-
ment credit for the motives which had induced them
to bring forward this measure. He, however, consi•
dered that the utmost attention ought to be paid to
the representations of those who had embarked their
property under the existing laws, and that no change
ought to take place without the most mature deli-
beration. He thought that the petitioners should
state their, grievances before the Committee ap-
pointed on the question.
The petition was then brought up and read. It
prayed that the House would not sanction the trade
being thrown open, and also that they might be
heard by Counsel against the Bill.
The petition was referred to the Committee sit-
ting on beer licences.
DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presented a petition
from Coventry, complaining of the distress prevail-
ing amongst numerous classes in that city, which
they ascribed in some degree to the contracted state
of the currency ; and praying a Reform in Parlia-

went.
Mr. FYLER agreed with the petitioners in some'
points, whilst he differed from them in others—
such, for example, as annual parliaments and elec-
tion by ballot.
The petition was then read, and ordered to be
printed.
• Mr. DENISON presented petitions from the
farmers of various places in Surrey, complaining of

distress, and praying the repeal of the malt and beer lative beatings would tie amply considered in tic
duties. Committee then sitting.
Mr. FYLER presented a .petition from 2,400 The petition was read, and ordered to be printed,
riband weavers of a parish in Coventry, complain- it purported to be the petition of certain inhabitants
ing of their very distressed state.—Ordered to be of Liverpool, entreating the House to abolish the
I printed. monopoly of the East India Cobnpany in the trade
Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for a return of the to India.
average price, of corn for the last ten years, pre- Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from the
viously to 1825.—Oidered. Jews of Liverpool, praying to be relieved from their
EAST INDIA MONOPOLY. present civil disabilities.—The petition was read and
Mr. P. THOMSON said he had to present a laid on the table.
petition from individuals, whose wealth, influence, Mr. O'CONNELL presented two petitions ie
and respectability, placed them on a footing of equa- favour of Radical Reform in the Commons Housr
lity with the highest classes of their fellow-subjects, of Parliament—the first from Tullsgli, in the county
and entitled their sentiments on all subjects, but of Clare; the second from ten pet-eons signing ol
more especially on that which was involved in their behalf, as he stated, of 30,000 inhabitates of Lon-
petition, to the most earnest and respectful attention don, convened at a public Meeting at the Eagle
of the House. It related to the monopoly of the Tavern, City-road, on Tuesday last. The, pet;tioners,
East India Company, in reference to which they he stated, in both cases attributed the present iinh
held but one opinion, and that was embodied in the versed distress to the want of a thorough nit) radical
petition which he had the honour to present. It Reform in that House, which he described as an in-
was not necessary for him, on the present occasion, stalment of the Oligarchy of the country, instead of
to say any thing from himself, but he would merely a representation of the commonalty.—The petitions
state the views which were taken by the petitioners beimg read, were ordered to be printed.
concerning this momentous subject. He was grati- General GASCOYNE presented the petition of
fled in thus having an opportunity of doing so, as it the Mayor, Burgesses, and Council of Liverpool,
had been industriously represented that the mer- praying the abolition of the East India Com parry's
chants of London, who were concerned in the East monopoly of the trade to India.—The petition was
India trade, had separate interests, and entertained ordered to be referred to the Committee sitting on
separate opinions, quite different from those already that subject.
so generally expressed by the merchants of the out- Lord LEVESON GOWER brought rip, pur-
ports. The petition in his hand fully refuted those suant to the order of the House, the Charitable So-
assertions, and proved that the London merchants cieties of Ireland Estimates.—Laid on the table.
made common cause with the parties to former pe- Mr. SLANEY presented a petition from the
titions, and perfectly coincided in their sentiments. town of Oldham, in the county of Salop, against the
They prayed for the unrestrained right of settle- truck system.
ment of British subjects in India, and likewise for a THE POOR OF IRELAND.
material alteration in the stamp duties. They, more- Mr. SPRING RICE, in bringing forward, pur-
over, sought for the complete separation of the suant to notice, his motion on the subject of the
sovereign and commercial character of the East India labourite," poor •of Ireland, adverted to the discus-
Company. They likewise prayed that the Company sion had upon the subject last Session, when the
might not be permitted in any degree to interfere in subject was brought under the notice of the House
commercial pursuits, except for the purpose of oh- by a friend of his, who was not at present a Mem-
taining remittance. How far it might he advisable ber—Mr. Villiers Stewart. Though he (Mr. S.
that such remittances should be procured by the Rice) could not fully concur in the resolution sub-
purchase of bills in the market, it was not then re- mitted on that occasion by his Hon. Friend, yet he
quisite to examine; but in all that related to the was sure that if Mr. Villiers Stewart had continued
monopoly generally, the petitioners united with the a Member of that House at the present time, he
large bodies of the mercantile community, through- would not have objected to the motion with which
out 'every part of the kingdom, in strenuously op- he then intended to conclude, namely—that a
posing its continuance. Committee be appointed to inquire into the State
The petition, which was as follows, was then of the labouring poor in bellied. After much re-
brought up, and ordered to be printed. gretting the absence of Mr. Villiers Stewart, and
"To the Honourable the Commons of the United King- pronouncing a warm eulogium upon his character
dom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament and talents, he went on to say, that though he and
assembled. that gentleman essentially differed as to the means
" The humble Petition of the undersigned Merchants for effecting an improvement in the state of the la-
and Agents, connected with the Trade of the East
booting poor of Ireland, yet they were animated by
Indies, and resident in London, the same spirit, and anxious to bring about similar
" Sheweth,—That your petitioners are deeply interested
in the inquiry now pending in your Honourable House results. They now came to the consideration of
' into the state of the trade between Great Britain, the- the state of the Irish poor, free from one of the
East Indies, awl China,' as connected with a renewal of great difficulties and impediments which had
here-
the Charter to the East India Company. tofore interrupted the consideration of any measures
" That it is the opinion of your petitioners, from the for the imprrivement of Ireland—he alluded to the
experience obtained since the opening of the trade to the religious dissensions which had so long distracted
East Indies, by the b3d of George 111 and subsequent Ireland, and which were now so happily terminated.
Acts, that the manufacturing, shipping, and commercial
interests of the United Kingdom have derived very ma- He had understood from the Noble Lord opposite,
that objection' would he made to the appointment
portant advantages therefrom. of a Committee, and he should therefore have limit-
" That your petitioners confidently rely that, in any
ed himself to the mere terms of his motion, were
renewal of the Charter of the East India Company, due
provision will be made to allow such free intercourse of he not ap
British subjects with India, and to give to them such right might be pmistaken in Ireland ; and he also wished
rehensive that his views and intentions
of settling therein, as shalt (consistently with the security to explain his views because he did not desire to
of the British Government, and the welfare of the native obtain support upon false grounds. The first pro-
population) be best calculated to promote the full deve- position which he meant to establish was, that there
lopetnent of the internal resources of that country, and, by existed a case for inquiry. There was no one who
the application of British shill and capital, improve its paid the slightest attention to the evidence laid upon
various products, especially those of sugar, cotton, silk, the table of the House upon the subject of the Irish
and tobacco; these being the principal means by which,
in the opinion of your petitioners, a further extension of poor, could doubt that there did exist a case for in-
quiry. In fact, all admitted that such a case existed.
the valuable trade with India, now obstructed by the diffi-
c The next object, after acquiring information,
ulty of obtaining returns, may be facilitated.
" That, adverting to the tact of the Government of was to come to some practical result, and the
India having recently imposed a heavy and most vexatious most effectual mead of effecting a beneficial
burden on the commerce of that country, through the result would be to approach the inquiry arid the
operation of the ' Stamp Regulation,' it is, in the opinion decision in a temper of moderation and discre-
of your petitioners, due to the commercial interests of tion. When once the inquiry should be determined
India that the trade should be at once relieved from that on, he begged to assure the House that he should do
burden, and protected against the imposition of any tax all in his power that their labours should not be al-
whatever by the local Government, without a fair oppor-
tunity being afforded to all parties affected thereby, of can- lowed to become a dead letter. It was the saying-
of an ancient sage that Hell was paved with broken
vassing its merits and provisions, and of submitting to the
resolutions. It had but too often been the practice
Government such objections as they may entertain to the
measure, previously to its acquiring the force of law. of that House to appoint Committees to examine
" That it is the opinion of your petitioners, supported witnessess, to make Reports—most wise and pre-
tty the personal experience of many of them, that corn- dent and rational—but those Reports were 'nide
mercial dealings, on the part of the Government of India, only to be neglect ed and forgotten. There was al-
whether as merchants or manufacturers, are destructive of ready before the House a great mass of evidence
fair competition, and are, in consequence, calculated rather upon the subject of the people of Ireland, and he
to depress than excite commercial enterprise through the only desired now to extend the inquiry as far as
s:ountrienstsutionjectitieto
mercantile prosperity
'•ltt is,()f therefore, most
tmohset might be necessary for bringing their information
be entirely restrictedtt down to the present time. He hoped that the effect
important
of thati countrlyesEorousli;of that inquiry would be to disprove the exagge-
from all commercial dealings, save and except, in refer-
rated statements which they were every hour in the
once to the export trade from India to Europe, it be abso-
lutely necessary to buy produce in open market, for the leak of hearing with respect to the state of Ire-
purpose of remittance in aid of the territorial demands on land, and the distress prevailing in that country. He.
the London treasury, when no other means of supply can did not deny the existence of distress, and very con-
he obtained. siderable distress, but he altogether denied that the
" That, whilst your petitioners express this opinion as distress existed to the extent which had been stated
to the bounds which should beset to the commercial inter- in some quarters. It was decidedly his opinion that
terference of the Government of India, they desire to be the poor of Ireland were by no means in a condition
distinctly understood not to uphold the usefulness or ne- of such distress, relatively to those above them as
cessity of even such limited transactions, believing, as they the English P oer were.. It had become very much
do, that the condition of India will, under a free and open the practice to speak of the sinking and depressed
competition of commerce, afford further proof to the ex-
condition of Ireland. He begged briefly to call the
perience furnished lay all other countries in the world, that
the work of remittance cmbe best performed by means of attention of the House to the exports of that cowl-
the industry, intelligence, and economy, of merchants ince_ try to, England, and he should confine himself to a
virtually interested in the result of their undertaking'. single case. Exactly a century ago, Sir Charles
" That your petitioners refrain, at this time, from Williams stated—and he was considered good so-
making any declaration on the important question of the thority—that the exports of Ireland to England
monopoly in the supply of tea to this country now vested
amounted annually to about 287,0001. That state-
in tine East India Company, because, in their opinion, that ment was written in the year 1729. Now the ex-
subject is interwoven with various other considerations,
ports from a tingle city—that which his Right Hon.
besides those purely commercial, which render a full in- Friend near him represented—was no less in a single
vestigation indispensably necessary for establishing a fair
year than 2,163,000/. In everuarter there was
and just decision as to the course which it may be wise
reason to believe that capital was growing every
to pursue in furtherance of the common interests of the
where throughout Ireland. He believed, too, that
country.
" But, pending the consideration which is now giving to many of the gentlemen in that House connected
this most important object, your petitioners cannot with- with the banking concerns of Ireland, could bear
hold the expression of their opinion that the interests of testimony to the improving condition of the com-
British merchants, shipowners, and manufacturers, ought mercial portion of the Irish people in other ways
not to be any longer disregarded in relation to the corn- besides the-exports to England. The Honourable
mecca of China; nor the expression of their hope, that Gentleman then briefly adverted to the condi-
merchants of this country shall be no longer excluded
from the exercise of their skill and the employment of tion of the labouring poor in Killarney, to the
numbers living by mendicity in Bandon and in
their capital, in a lucrative branch of the commerce of the Cork,
wor o in condition of the country from the cri-
ld, open to all other nations of Europe and Americo,
and then proceeded to show the improv-
whilst the exclusion of tine private merchants of the g
United Kingdom has, without producing any correspond- mmal returns. The population, he observed, was
ing benefit to the East India Company, had the direct ef- rapidly augmenting, and crime, so far from incress-
feet of checking the general commerce of the country, and ing, had considerably diminished of late years. In
narrowing the consumption of its manufactures. 1823 the commitments were 15,000; in 1828,
" These lacing the views which your petitioners humbly 14,600—showing a difference of 400 for the whole
entertain on this important subject, they pray your
honourable House will adopt such measures as may afford island. The progress of crime had been advancing
greater facilities for the extension of tine trade with India in England in 1828 ; and (as we understood) the
and China, promote its general prosperity, and conduce to executions had increased ; while in Ireland the con-
trary was the case. In that country in 1823 the
the improvement and welfare of the vast population of the
British territories in the East. executions were 61; 1827, 27; 1828, 21, In 1823
" And your petitioners will ever pray." those convicted of seditious practices amounted to
Mr. JEPII SON presented a petition tor the abo. 121 ; 1825, 9; 1827, 0; 1828, 3. Thus it would
lition of slavery. be seen that the condition of Ireland had in more
Mr. O'CONNELL said a few words in support ways than one, been materially ameliorated; but
of the petition, which was laid on the table. antecedently to any measure of legislation with a
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from a view to its further improvement, it would be neces-
most numerous and respectable body of persons. sary that the House should have its actual condition
The Hon. Gentleman stated that this petition con_ before them, and that brought down to the latest
tabled the signatures of every banker, every mer- . period. In moving for a Committee at that early
chant, every ship-owner, and every respectable period of the Session, there was every reasonable
tradesmen of Liverpool. It contained 7,000 sigma- prospect that its labours might be brought to a close
tures. As a Committee was then sitting on the time enough to admit of practical results. The
subject to which the petition referred, he did not next subject to which he should direct attention was
think it a fit time to go into a discussion, but would the charge brought against the Irish gentry and
merely state that it prayed that the East India middle classes that they showed no disposition to
Company's monopoly might not be renewed. . relieve the wants and necessities of their poor fel-
,
General GASCOYNE would also refrain from low-countrymen. National reflections might be
discussion, and would merely observe, that, no ' easily made, but they should not be made lightly.
doubt, something like the pretext they had heard The Hun. Member then entered into a steterneut,
that evening from the publicans would be set up in the object of which was to show that large sums
opposition to the adoption of a free trade—viz., had been expended in Ireland on lunatic asylums,
vested interests were at stake.—(Hear.)—He arid fever hospitals, on county hospitals, and other
(General Gascoyne) was at a loss to know what public institutions in each of the four provinces.
argument could be adduced for the continuance of County hospitals alone, he said,. cost 54,0001. e
the exclusive trade to China. The interests of the year. He would next advert to the fever hospitals
whole country were opposed to those of a few ; it . which were established all over the country, and all
was in comparison as millions to 2 or 3,000 in- of which, except the one at Dublin, were supported
dividuals. by local funds, and without costing the Government.
Mr. ,A.STELL trusted this subject and all its re- I
any thing. At all these hospitals, cases of fiver

were treated with as great liberality and with as
great success as in any hospitals of this country.
'ere were also establishments for the relief of sick
persons, to the amount of 40t), supported by pri- '
vate subscription ; and at these establishments, dur-
ing the last year, half a million of persons were
relieved. If gentlemen who sometimes censured -
the want of such establishments in Ireland would
look at that country, they would find that it was
net deserving of their blame; anti it was to make
thsm aware of this, that he had mentioned these
estab islunents. He came then to the question,
what was to be done for the Irish poor ? The first
step was to ascertain what previous investigation
tad been ma le into the subject- The question of
introducing poor laws had been discussed, once
:tiredly and once incidentally, in that House. In
1801, his /I;glit Hon. Friend (Sir J. Neivport)
whose name was always foremost in all works for the
rood of Ireland, had moved for a Committee to
inquire into the state of the poor in Ireland. That
Committee had reported, that to introduce the
English system of poor laws into Ireland, would be
highly injurious to that country, and not advan-
tageous to the lower classes of the people. In 1822
the subject was investigated incidentally, in the
Committee anointed to inquire into the employ-
ment of the poor in Ireland. The report of that
Committee was tecommewled to him by having re-
ceived the sanction of Mr. Ricardo, and it stated .
that any system of relief which lessened the bide-
oendence of the peasantry, and deprived labour of
its appropriate inducement, would be injurious to
the industry of the people, and impede the improve-
ment of the loner classes. He referred to these two
authorities, not because he would then have the
Howe to act on them, not considering them as con-
clusive that what was not wise then would not be
wise now, but merely as authorities worthy of con-
sideration, and to show the House that if these opi-
nions were erroneous, it ought not to come to a
directly opposite conclusion without first instituting
a full inquiry, anti hearing evidence on all the parts
of the question. He had before only mentioned
houses of industry ; he Would then refer to them,
to show what would be the effect of a compulsory
rate. The Hon. Member for Wicklow proposes to
make a compulsory rate for the whole country, for
that was involved in his proposal for establishing
poor laws in Ireland. This principle ought, there-
fore, in the first instance, to be discussed. Before
they extended houses of industry, they ought to •
ascertain whether they had, on the whole dimi'
nished or added to the sum of human misery. The
experiment had already been tried on a large scale,
and the illustration involved no question of local ex-
penses. The experiMent of a poor rate for the House
of Industry at Dublin had been tried on the largest
possible scale, and its effects ought to he known be-
fore
they introduced the poor laws itt Ireland. It
made no difference that the rate had come out of
the pockets of the people of England, as fax as its
effect on the people' of Ireland was concerned.----
Since the Union a sum had been voted for that
establishment amounting to 803,0001.; and among
the estimates then on the table, there was, he be-
lieved, an additional grant for it. The effects had
been ascertained by an inquiry instituted by Mr.
Grant and Mr. Secretary Peel, when they held
office in Ireland, and the report made to them
sheaved that that House of Industry had totally
failed in its objects of suppressing mendicity, and,
in its effects, had augmented, by bringing destitute
people in from the country, the number of poor is
Dublin. If such establishments were formed in
every part of the country, what would be the re'
sults? They would entail heavier burthens and s
greater number of poor on cities and places already
burthened like Dublin with poor, unless the intro-
duction of poor laws into Ireland was united with
some provision that would be tantamount to the
I:tws of settlement, and would limit relief to per-
sons residing in particular places. If his Hon. Friend
would examine the establishments of this description
in Ireland in detail, he would find that it would be
no remedy to establish Houses of Industry all over
Ireland. In one he knew that when the fever pre-
vailed the medical man never attended, but wrote
his prescriptions at the distance of a mile. In one 1
he had seen a dead child lying in bed with its me-
thyl-, presenting the moot deplorable scene of human
suffer ng. He would beg the House and his Hon.
Friend not to suppose that establishments at the
public charge would not lead to many such scenes.
He knew that some benevolent men---Dr. Dave
nant, for instance—who had a scheme for a great
hospital, that was to yield 1,200,0001. to the public
treasury ; and Sir Josius Child, who had a vague
notion of public benefit to be derived from such
institutions, fancied that they might be both useful
to the people, and advantageous to the public.-.--
But whatever might be the case with the English
peasantry, he was sure that the Irish people would
never like that charity which was accompanied with
restraints and fetters. Establishments supported at
the public charge could not be kept free from local
abuses. He thought Dr. Franklin'• opinion was
a wise one—that the more the law did for the poor
the less they would do for themselves; and the less
there was dose for them by the law the richer they
would become. It was proposed by many gentles
men to introduce the English poor laws in Iry
land ; but while they proposed this, they were not
contented with the poor laws in England. Since the
passing of the 43d of Elizabeth, there had been an
uninterrupted series of attempts to depart from the
principle of that Act, or to amend the poor laws.
He was not aware by what alchemy the English
gentlemen were to transfer all the gold of this
system to Ireland, without any of that alloy • they
compla;ned of. He should like to see the English
poor laws first of all adapted to the state of England,
and the improvements in them carried into practice
here before they were extended to Ireland. Not to
refer to the more ancient attempts which had bees
made to improve these laws, he would merely men.
tion the names of Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sturges Bourne,
the present Attorney-General, Mr. Nolan, and the •
Hot'. Member for Shrewsbury, as gentlemen seho
had tried to amend the English poor laws, and had
not succeeded. He was sorry that the Hon. Member
for Newark was not in his place, particularly as he.
had great respect for him, and conceived that Ire'
land was much indebted to him for the attention he
had paid to its interests, but he was sorry that the
Hon. Member was not in his place, as he meant to
make some observations on his opinions on the sub'
jest. That Hon. Member was one of the ablest
supporters of the plan of giving poor laws to Ire'
land; and his argument was, that they would cone,
pet the absentees to return to Ireland, and would
place a barrier to the clearing of the land. Against, 1
the Hon. Member he would balance the politico'
economists, though lie was anxious to separate.hior
self from them as far as their doctrines related t° '
absenteeism, for he never could believe that the al);
settee of the higher classes from any country hod
no evil effects physically or morally on the lowed
classes of the people ; but while the Honourable
Member defended the introduction of poor 100
into England as a barrier against clearing tlo
land, the political economists urged on the free
sure as supplying an additional inducement f'7%
hnded gentlemen to dispossess their tenants and deg',
the land of the peasantry. For his part he did not Iv!,
to give the landlords any additional inducement tv
clear the land and drive away their tenantry. .01'
admitted, with the Hon. Member for Newark, it
there was a great want of employment, -but he di',
fered from him in supposing that the poor laer'
would provide a remedy against the evil. On who
0
principle could it be said that introducing poor lave i
into Ireland would add to the employment of th,
people ? The demand for labour depended on the
quantity of capital; and how was that to be 841
mentcd by poor laws ? They would only ta/‘°
funds from the occupiers of land to transfer them t`:
the paupers—they would take money out of tb;
pocket of one man to put it into another. A po°
rate would diminish capital arid lessen the emplor,
uncut of the poor.—(Hear.)—He wished to give 4'
1
ployment to the labourer ; but a poors' rate only take .
money out of the pocket of one man to transfer it t.
the pocket of auother,—(Hear.)—The adoptigo v