The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-04 00:00:00

be expended, I am not surprised that some should say we
don't choose that this money should be expended in which we
are so deeply interested, without our opinion having been
once asked upon it. That is the first objection which I think
is fairly applicable to the subject. But there is another ob-
jection, which I think is more powerful, and to my mind ap-
pears quite decisive ; and I wish my Noble Friend, who was
a party to that proposition, to have the goodness to give me
his attention while I state this objection. I find it is stated
in defence of Church-rates, that no Church-rates are levied
on much more than 5,000 parishes in England, and that
in the other parishes, no Church-rates are levied at all.
I find that so stated, but I have no evidence of it. But I
know this, that by the Charity Commissioners' Report, in an
immense number of parishes in England, there is no possible
necessity for the levying of any Church-rates at all, because
in those parishes there is an abundant provision already made
fur the endowment of the Churches. Now in the county of
(we believe the Right Hon. Gent. said) Cornwall there are
upwards of a hundred parishes which have endowments for
their Churches ; I do not know whether those endowments
arc quite adequate to all, but to take the more extreme case
to which I have already adverted of there being 5,000 parishes
in which there are no Church-rates at all, or where there is an

inadequate endowment, is it fair to tax those persons which you
do if you take it upon a general taxation of the country?-
-is it fair to tax them who have already enough for their
Churches, in order to compel them to contribute to the support
of other Churches in distant parts of the country. I say that
there being a sufficient endowment in many parishes for their
Churches, that that makes it unjust that you should make an
equal taxation. I could give you instances in support of this.
I find that in the reign of Queen Mary, a Charter was granted
and considerable property given to a Corporation at Sheffield,
called the Church Burgesses ; that those personshave adequate
funds for the maintenance of the Church at Sheffield,
that they do maintain the Church at Sheffield, and that all
Church-rates at Sheffield have ceased. But is it not rather
hard to say that you are to make a provision for the mainte-
nance of Churches in other places, where no such endowment
exists ? Well, then, it was said on the part of Scotland, why
should vou tax us for the purpose of maintaining the Episco-
palian Church of England ? The plan of Lord Spencer was
a great step in advance. It put an end to contests among
Dissenters, and put an end to the contests at vestries ;
but still it was based on a principle which, on fair
reasoning, you could not justly defend.—( Hear, hear. )
The objection to Lord Spencer's plan was altogether con-
fined to the Dissenters, because he found in a work opposed
to the doctrines he had advocated, " The Quarterly Review,"
a statement that if this plan were adopted of upholding the
Church out of the national purse, and if the repairs be charged
on the Consolided Fund where is the relief to the Dissenters ?
—( Prolonged cheering.) I do not quite concur in the
arguments used by that writer, but I say, if you
adopt that course, you only give a half-remedy. Now I
have endeavoured thus to prove that the present state of the
law is defective, and that the various plans which have been
suggested would not turn out to be satisfactory. I know I
have occupied the House at great length ; but I am resolved
even at the hazard of trying the patience of the House to omit
nothing that will recommend the plan I am about to introduce,
and to protect the supporters of that plan from misrepresentation
Those are the duties I am about to perform, and I am about
to detail that plan to the house.—( Cheers.) Our plan is to
abolish Church. rates altogether, not for the purpose of
leasing the fabric of the Church unprovided for, but
with a view of providing for it in a manner equally
permanent, equally fixed, and equally secure as
before, and in a manner differing from the present by this
great distinction, that while the present system derives its sup-
port through turmoil, in difficulty, and through the creation of
religious animosity, we propose to maintain the fabric in ano-
ther way, and in a manner without injury to the Church itself.
We propose to make a new and a better settlement of this
question.—(Hear, hear.) Our Bill provides that in a
better manner, which was provided Kith difficulty before—
namely, out of the lands which are now the property
of the Church, and in the hands of the Archbishops, Bishops,
Deans, and Prebendaries throughout England. Gentlemen
will understand me—l do not propose to touch any of the pro-
perty in the hands of the parochial clergy throughout Eng-
land, nor do I mean to interfere with the settlement of the
income of any Archbishop or Bishop as fixed and regulated
by the Bill of last Session, and recommended by the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners. I do not propose to meddle with
any ecclesiastical arrangements made or proposed last year ;
but I state my proposal to be, that out of the lands of
the Established Church, means shall be provided for
supporting the fabric of the Church. I think that by this
means a sum of 250,0001. a year can be procured, which was
the amount proposed to be taken from the Consolidated Fund
by Earl Spencer.—( Hear.) If this can be done without
injury to the Church, I believe that those who are anxious for
the abolition of Church-rates will be content, and that the
Dissenter and the Churchman, who should be combined and
confederated together for one common good object—that
all who wish to put an end to this contest—will join with
me in carrying my plan into effect.—(Great cheering.)
Sir, the plan I propose will be a Commission for the manage-
inent.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and much laughter,
from the Opposition benches.) I was as sure that the word
" Commission" would be followed by a cheer, as that light
follows the rising of the sun.—( Hear, hear.) But let Hon.
Members hear a little more. I propose that there should be
a Commission for the management of the Church lands, to
consist of eleven persons ; of these five to be Churchmen of high
rank, Ecclesiastics—namely, the Archbishop of Canterbury,
the Archbishop of York, the Bishop of London, the Doan of
St. Paul's, and the Dean of Westminster. The others to he
the Lord Chancellor, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department for the time being, the First Commissioner of
Woods and Forests, for the time being (for reasons I shall
presently explain); and that as in the Tithe Bill, there shall
be three Lay Commissioners, one of them to be appointed by
the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the two others to be ap-
pointed by the Crown. That is the constitution of the
Commission that I propose.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Gentle-
men will observe, that the object of the appointment
of this Commission is for the management of the Church lands.
I do not propose that the legal estate should be transferred to
them ; on the contrary, I think the estate should remain as at
present, but that the management of the Church lands, as in the
Crown lands, should be in these Commissioners. I then pro-
pose that the present leasing powers of the Church should
altogether cease.— ( Loud cheering, and cries of " Hear,
hear.") Gentlemen will hereafter sec whether any injustice
is intended. I need not refer to the present system of leasing
—the power of taking fines—of granting leases for lives and
leases for years, and the power which the Deans and Chapters
possess of granting concurrent leases. All these must be
familiar to Finn. Gentlemen who may have considered the
subject ; and if not, in the course of my address the mat-
ter will be sufficiently explained.—( Cries of hear, hear. )
The greater portion cf the income derived from Church
lands is raised by fines upon the renewal of leases. The
rents are for the most part fixed, and they constitute
a comparatively small portion of the income.—( Hear. )
The Church is thus in the state of a person who
lives by raising money upon a reversion, which is decidedly the
most improvident of all means.—( Hear.) Every gentleman at
all acquainted with the world must know' that such is exactly
the life of a spendthrift.—( Hear, hear.) I pre/pose therefore,
that the system of levying fines shall be entirely done away
with, and that the present leases be allowed to'run out, then
to be renewed upon their full value.—( Hear, hear.) It will
be said, no doubt, and with justice, that if my plan stopped
there—if the measure which I have to propose were limited to
that—a great injustice would be done to the present lessees.
They have had their leases from their ancestors—those leases
have been the subjects of mortgage and settlements—( Hear,
hear)—and therefore there is a sort of qualified right in them
—( hear)—and however great the evils which we wish to re-
move, we must not do so to the injury of one particular class.
—( Hear, hear.) The Bill which I propose to introduce is
founded on the principle of regarding the rights of the
present incumbents ; so that, according to the improved
value of the lease the tenant of the Church shall be entitled
to a right of pre-emption ; that is, the tenant of the Church
shall have his lease renewed at five per cent. below its im-
proved value. That is the case with the tenants of Crown
Lands—(Hear)—and I propose with respect to the tenants
of the Church to give them the same advantage, and no more.
lam far from being satisfied with this-1 do not think it meets
the justice of the case.—( Hear, hear.) If they continued
the system of year leases, I think that a great portion of
their duty will be left unperformed. Any one who saw
not only in agricultural districts, but in large cities, the course
of improvement interrupted, and great national municipal im-
provements anticipated, must admit that lie would not be sa-
tisfied with existing regulations to which I have referred.
Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I propose, there-
fore, to give the tenant in possession the power of purchasing
the fee-simple of the Church lands, subject to a fixed rent,
payable to the Commissioners. When I say a fixed rent, I
mean, when it has been ascertained, it shall fluctuate accord-
ing to the ordinary value of money. Ido this upon the prin-
ciple of that Bill which met the sanction of the Legislature in
the last session—l mean the Tithe Act. I propose that
the Church lessees shall be enabled to purchase the
interest of the land at the rate of twenty-five years'
purchase—the existing leases being valued at a rate
equal to the interest of money at four per cent.
If, for instance, a tenant has a lease equal to 14 years' pur-
chase, that shall be estimated at 4 per cent., and the diffe-
rence between that and 25 years' purchase shall be the amount
the tenant shall have to pay for the enfranchisement of his land.
Gentlemen are not to suppose that the plan which it is my
duty to propose, makes it imperative upon every lessee to pay
the amount of difference in actual money. No Sir, I propose
that the amount should be commuted into an increased rent
to be added to the rent and fines which he now pays—l propose
for him the entire enfranchisement of his land—to make
that which is now an uncertain and doubtful tenure, a tenure
fixed and certain—a tenure in fee simple—one which will se-
cure to the Church not only that which she now receives, but
also that surplus upon which I confidently rely, and also a
better system of Church-rates. There are also clauses which
enable persons who are life-renters to raise money for the
exchange of lands. By these clauses the life-renter will
have power to exchange Church lands for others that
he may want nearer his dwelling.—( Hear.) Sir, these
are cases in which people having leases in covenant under the
Crown these rights will be regarded in the same manner as in
the case of Crown property; they will have the power to come
before the Commissioners, to prove their interest in the land,
and from them they will obtain such a decision as the justice
of the case demands. Now, Sir, I have shown that the
present dignitaries' rights have not at all been affected, and
consequently, and in order to provide more especially for
such cases, we propose that if a Bishop pleases, he may con-
tinue to keep up the present system of fines and rents. There
is nothing in the Bill to prevent his continuing that practice,
but we propose to give him an advantage by accepting the
provisions of this Bill at once. If the Bill should pass tho