The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-24 00:00:00

serious subject of religion.—(liar, hear:) That unhappy
rnixturt deoccrated the tree while it added to the arseehity of
the It thee lin,Ling the Wokse tor the
—( Hear.) lie meant io say nothing harsh or offensive, tut
that was his deliberate and sincere conviction, A etin, he
osieicelerle oed
' ' ' to e praetiee prevellee al, so
t)siL lA' their relessieies elp,lt!ortsee
'rer4rd tit. 4 thni
tiouse.—( Hear, hear ) The Honourable Member cheer, d
----(we could not perceive to whom the lion. Baronet alluded,
but beFeve it to be the Hun, Member for St. Andrew's)
—elm whet. weriellle. terms tHypli94 by, the lleU..tind . Iscafned
e iteeeeary lasi meet to the s
the " Calvanistic Member ?"—(Hear, hear, hear.) Yet who
was put forward to defend the Government from the imputa-
tion of his lion. Priced the Member for Weetenieeter, tlest in
:lit dtei• the disseeteie;
Chareh ? Was it one of the Cabinet ? Was it one
of the responsible adviser e of his Md4sty 5. No; it was the
lionotseable and leeerne4 Member .or TlOpetelry-se Ilbs.
r,:ot Catholic himself—who was actuated, no doubt, by
the noblest zeal, to rush forth and throw the shield of
his protection over them.—(Hear: hear.) The charge of
the Hen, Member for Westrniheter against liis iklajesty'e Mi-
nietere Wee, that in all their trarisattione Cotineeted With the
r~lttrrt It ttihiF leaning. Weh to the liisserders i and that their
hostility, not avowed, but covert, and theref. ra the more daft;
gerous, was unceasingly directed against those religious instie
tutionsof the conntre, whielt their rrniStdie do his
it,ori;riation, swore to protect, defend, and uphold.—('
That was the charge of his Hon. Friend against them. It
would be worth the trouble to trace their proceedings since
they came int(' powei_'. for Pie pOrtioati of Peeing he* fat that
ehargo was susteined by them. First, in regard to the Church
of Ireland. He ( Sir J. Graham) could not, he admitted, put
the matter so briefly or so tersely as the Hon, and Learned
Member fur Tipperary. He should, therefore, use his words
rather than his own. That Hon. end Learned Member an=
flounced that his Majesty's Ministers, or rather the Whigs as
a party, were irrevocably bound to the alienation of Church
property in Ireland for sander phrposcs. That the Hon. and
Learned Member declared, was the real purport of the appro-
priation clause in the Irish Church Bill. ( Hear, hear.) So
much for the police of his Majesty's Ministers and their party
towards the gstablished Church of Ireland. He (Sir J.
Graham) would next pass on to Scotland. What was their
policy with regard to the Established Church of Scotland? It
was a Church perfectly different in its constitution and cite-
meter from those of England and. Ireland, - There was no
one could talk of its " bloated Bishop," its " idle dignita-
ries," its " pvtipered pluralists." It was a Church of almost
republican plainness and simplicity—a Church holding a
high place in the affections of a religious and moral
people, whose fathers had fought and bled for its establish-
ment. What was the fact? Since the union with England
the population of Scotland had doubled, while the increase
of Church accommodation was only equal to one-tenth. That
' was proved, and the want of a further increase so forcibly
shown, that in less than two years a sum of 165,9001. was
raised by private subscription for building additional churches.
—( Hear, hear.) On that occasion application was made to his
Majesty's Ministers by the people of Scotland. They said,
" we will build the churches, but, as the sum we have is in-
sufficient to endow them, will you apply to Parliament for a
grant for the trifling funds necessary for that purpose?"
What said his Majesty's Ministers in reply? They affected
to know nothing of the want, though it was all but officially
proved to exist, and they answered, " No, we will not do
that, we will institute an inquiry; we will issue a Commis-
sion." A Commission, one of that countless crowd which
originated :with them, wan accordingly issued. At first it
was a gtneral Commission, and its object was to include the
entire country; but, on its being strongly represented to them
hat with such an object there was no chance of the Commis-
sion ever having an end, it was made by their consent a local
one. A report was made from the city of Edinburgh, and in
that city alone it was shown that, though the population was
little more than one hundred and sixty, thousand inhabitants,
those destitute of religious instructions in that number amount-
ed to no less than sixty-four thousand. Another local Com-
mission was sent to Glasgow in the beginning of 1636, but
though the middle of 1837 had already arrived no report
from it had been laid on the table of the House. Yet that
commission up to the present time cost the country 20,0001.,
one moiety of which would have been amply sufficient to sa-
tisfy all the wants and wishes of the applicants for endow-
ment. So far Ireland and Scotland : now for England. Lie
(Sir J. Graham) cordially agreed with his Hon. Friend the
Member for Westminster.—( Ironical cheers from the Trea-
sury benches.) The Right lion. the President of the Board
of Controul cheered that observation ; but there was a time
when he ( Sir J. Graham) did not agree with his Hon. Friend,
while the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Controul
did.—( Cheers from the Opposition side of the House.)
And he (Sir J. Graham) could further remind the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that a time was when he had assisted him
in canvassing Westminster in favour of the brother of the
Prime Minister, under whom he served—the Hon. Mr.
Lamb—against the lion. Baronet. He (Sir J. Graham) had,
however, had the satisfaction in the present Session of Parlia-
ment of voting consistently—( Ironical cheers from the Trea-
sury benches)—aye, of voting consistently—(Cheering)---for
that, in favour of which he had always contended against the
Right Hon. President of the Board of Controul—for that, by
virtue of which he supported the Hon. Mr. Lamb in 1820—
against Annual Parliaments, Vote by Ballot, Universal
Suffrage, and the abolition of corporal punishment in the
Army. So much for his consistency.—(Cheers.) The Hone
Member for Halifax, whose speech ho had heard with mum'
pleasure, had quoted a " remarkable" speech of the Right
Hon. the President of the Board of Controul, delivered at
Nottingham in 1835. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said
on that occasion that his Majesty's Ministers had, at the time
they left office, a measure propared on the subject of Church-
rates, which would be perfectly satisfactory to the Dissenters.
That was in 1835. Fortunately there was also on record a
speech of the Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, delivered on the 20th of June, 1836, in which he
not only declared himfelf fully on the principle of the measure
he should support for the settlement of Church-rates, but also
on its details. He (Sir J. Graham) should read the " re-
markable" words of the Noble Lord—equally remarkable in
every respect as the speech of the Right Hon. President of
the Board of Controul :
" My opini to on the subject is exactly the same as it has
hitherto been. I think it the duty of the State, either by
means of Church-rates (the Noble Lord did not say anything
about Church property), or out of some other public fund, to
maintain those buildings set apart by the State for the par.
poses of public worship in repair. And whatever may be the
opinions of the Dissenters on the subject these are those en-
tertained by the Government. That was the principle of the
measure introduced by Lord Althorp. The principle, then,
is declared, that Church-rates shall not be abolished without a
substitution if something equivalent in their place. I have
never said it should be otherwise. I have never countenanced
their abolition without an equivalent. To that principle I
have adhered—to that principle I mean to adhere."
( Sir J. Graham)now thought that he had satisfied the
House that on the 20th June, 1836, the Noble Lord was de-
cidedly of opinion that the State should find support for the
fabric of the Church, whatever might be his opinion on the
subject at present. With respect to the alleged conscien-
tious scruples of the Dissenters against the payment of Church-
rates, he could only say that when he heard such scruples
urged against the payment of imports established by law, and
reflected on the injustice and hypocrisy of mankind, he
could not entertain much respect for alleged religious scruples
in such a case. If such a plea were once admitted as the
ground for the non-payment of a legal tax, it would go far to
dissolve all the bonds of society, to strike at the security of all
property, and destroy the power of all civil government.—
( Cheers.) He had before him a document, signed by Lord
Tenterden, Chief Justice Tindal, Dr. Lushington, and the
present Judge Advocate-General, giving it as their joint opi-
nion,: that " the churchwardens were hound by their duty to a e
that the Church was kept in a proper state of repair for the
decent performance of divine service, and that the law im-
poses the burthen of such repairs on the parishioners."_.
(Cheers.) Note this was the opiniOn of the first law au-
thorities, including a Member of his Majesty's present Govern-
ment.—( Cheers.) It was true that the Attorney-Genernl
said on a former occasion, but said it very cautiously, that
" Difficulties might arise in the enforcing of payment which
it might not be easy to surmount."—(Cheers and laughter.)
But the Honourable and Learned Gentleman himself after-
wards showed that the difficulties would be very easily sur-
mounted, for he suggested-that Church-rates might be col-
lected and assessed as Poor-rates, from exempting Church
property.—( Loud cheering.) Now, instead of exempting
Church property, as the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man proposed, the present measure went to throw the burden
exclusively on Church property—(Cheers)—while the people
of England did not ask to he relieved from it. It was his firm
conviction that, if the Established Church were once restricted
in its present influence and wealth, within five years the Bishops
would be driven from the House of Lords, and in five years
more Episcopacy would be abolished in England.—(Cheers.)
Viewing this measure as it affected the lessors and lessees, he
could not but look upon it as a measure fraught with illegality
and injustice towards these parties. It had been stated that
there was a desire on the part of his Majesty's Government to
augment the smaller livings of the Clergy, but the effect of
the present measure would be to repeal, in fact, a Bill fir the
augmentation of small livings brought in by the Archbishop
of Canterbury, and now in operation. He should now advert
to the last topic, which he looked upon as the most important
of all, connected with this measure. The Hon. Member for
Weymouth said that he should vote for the amendment.
Now, that was not the question before the House. The ques-
tion was, that the words proposed by his Majesty's Govern-
ment stand part of the motion. But the Hon. Member had
made two propositions :--First, that a certein sum should
he raised from the property of the Church ; and, secondly,
that the sum so raised should be applied to the wants of the
Church itself, or those who were destitute of religious in-
struction. Now, upon these two points he (Sir J. Graham)
would speak frankly. If it could be shown to him that a fund
could be raised from. the property of the Church, without de-
triment to the interests of either lessors or lessees, he would
be favourable to the creating of such a fund, and no man would
be more ready that he would be to apply that fund to relieve
the destitution of the Church. But he would warn the House
to be cautious how they laid their hands for any other purpose
upon those funds which might be applied to the religious
wants of those who were now perishing and destitute. (The
Right Hon. Baronet sat down amidst lend cheering.)
Mr. HARVEY and the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER rose together, and the call was very general for
Mr. Harvey ; but after continuing on his legs for a short time
he gave way to
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who
perfectly concurred in the observations made by the Hon.
Baronet who had just spoken, in the outset of his speech, for
no wan could regret More than ho did the frequent cO4nCctioP

tt re'*!de with p.oliiice that occurred is the discussions in
that House. But he thdtigiit it si;ee toe, ',inch for the Hon.
to charge hie. (the Chancellor of tilt! teehequer's).
Puiciiiiiige :welt a Course, for it ever
there w a epecch that exempli!l.ed 0-4! trtitli of the inconve-
nience from the course which lie depie:eaieel et the
the Hun. Baronet himself eat
beginning it was the speech of
t .e."Theeee.) Pon: Peotlernen,eppoeite eriect vet that the Bill
was subversive or the Charm L!liette,? That cry, how-
ever, was spoiled by an alteration in the Bill, aild el.J.lcts
of Hon. Gentlemen opposite were foiled. Whatever Subject
Uecupied the attention of the ilous,), whether it referred to
,qcotle;rid or to Ireland, the whole policy 0* the Government,
aceoielie#tsi flan!, Gentlemcn opposite, was the overtlitelre of
the Church —(Clieere. Tile' Right Hon. Baronet was at
liberty to make that assertion if lie picaedel hat neither thet
Per otty etlTr oesertion would lead him (the Chancellor Of the
Exchequer) ici liir;e4l eso. eet teoent against one with whom
he was once intimate in political t!elerleetlon end friend-
snip:— (C. ears.) But, on the part of thotd efleoret he
acted, lie Weil a Y.) own, he gave the proud deft:lett that
neither in the scope, tenor, or iiite?tb was any one measure
they proposed calculated to affect religion in genteel, or the
J3stabliehed Church in particular. —( Cheers. ) It was Wile
that belt eAptleeti fbeee teho polluted w holy and just cause,
by prostituting it to the Ofteret iieseione of the help:in heart.
Ile would appeal to that test, as Lotti CirertVille had appealed
when he proettroel, the first relief for the He would
appeal to that test; as the Bight lion. Baronet the Member
for Tdni,Worth had justly appealed, when he was held up for
his opinione a 5 the? eiteney of the Church, but fret. which iin-
putation lie now stood free, add entitled to the gratitude of
a whole nation.—(Cheers ) The slay: Baronet ( Sir .1.
Grallate) lied tepronehed the members of the Oevernment
with not having replied td the lion. Baronet the Member for
Westminster, but left their defence to I.lle Him. and Learned
. Member for Tipperary. Might not the lion. ileree,et have
attriisuted the silence of the members of the Government,
on that occasion, to some better motives ?—(Great cheer-
ing.) if the Hon. Baronet the Member for Westminster
felt what it was to be severed from these with whom lie had
acted through life, lie must feel Chet a generous and a just
spirit would not wish to carry political fehog into private
friendship_.( Cheers)-wand he would not be see need that
none of his Majesty's Ministers rose to answer him.—( Chats, )
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) had attempted to
vindicate his own consistency, but he did this according to a
very Irish system of logic. He said that he had formerly op-
posed the lion. Baronet the Member for Westminster, and
that he now agreed with him ; and this he called his consis-
tericy. The lion. Baronet the Member for Westminster was
considered as a convert; tint converts were generally received
with open arms, whereas this nett convert had met with bitter
sarcasm in the defence of the Right lion. Baronet. It was
something like Mr. Canning's good-humoured observations
upon the Whigs at a Westminster election. He said that
the Whirrs had ribande at their heads and mud at their
heels.—( Laughter.) This was the way in which the Right
Hon. Baronet had decorated his new convert. The Right
lion. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge, in 1821,
brought in a Bill to provide additional Church accommoda.
tion. That very measure was opposed by the Right lion.
Baronet the Member for Cumberland, who en that occasion
stated that he "objected to it altogether—( Hear)--.and al-
though he was ready to support the Church in all its rights,
yet he could not support any measure which the unwise
friends of that Church might bring forward to enable her to
grasp more revenues than she then had."—(Cheers.) Here
the question was not to increase the wealth of the hierarchy,
and to enable the Church to grasp at greater power, but merely
to build additional Churches for the spiritual benefit of the com-
munity, and yet the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke of the
" unwise friends" of the Church.—( Hear, hear,) But Gentle-
men on his (Mr. Rice's) side of the House were not the " un-
wise friends" on that occasion.—( Cheers.) It was the Hon.
and Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite wits were then, and in
his opinion were now, the " unwise friends" of the Church
EstebLshment.—(He r, bear.) Toe Bill to which-he had re-
ferred was their Bill—(Cheers)—and, in addition to the
opposition given to it by the Right Hon. Baronet, he found
that on the same occasion Sir Francis Burdett al!o said
" that there was not a clause in the Bill to which he did
not object"—( Cheers and laughter) —so that it appeared that
both these armed knights came down to wage war against
the measure. He (Mr. Rice) had then been of great service
to those lion. Baronets, for, at the hazard of great sacrifices of
friendship, he had brought in a Bill against which it was made
matter of accusation that it would have anything but the effect
of which they had. expressed their disapprobarion. He thought
then that he had upon this' point given a sufficient answer to
the Right Hon. Gentleman. But the Right Hon. Gentle-
man also spoke of the close union existing between the Go-
vernment and the Roman Catholics, and of a compact of al-
liance which he stated was maintained between the Catholics

and the Protestant Dissenters.—( Hear.) Now, he was by
no means surprised that such a reciprocity of feeling should
subsist between them, for it was impossible that the Pro-

testant Dissenters could ever forget the assistance they had
met with on the part of the Roman CAtholics with regard to
the Test and Corporation Acts—(Hear, hear)—and if they

could they were far from being the men he took them for.
It was equally impossible that the Catholics could forget
how much they owed the Dissenters, for if they could they
would be altogether unworthy of that freedom which tpe
Dissenters had been so instrumental in obtaining for them
—(Cheers.) But, as to any compact existing between those
bodies of hostility to the Established Church (for the pre-
sent measure was designated as hostile to the Establishment),
he would say, and by that assertion be would abide, that if

there was not one Dissenter in the land, and if the country
was peopled by men among whom no difference upon reli-

gious matters existed, yet the proposed measure was a good
measure—(Cheers)—that it was not only good in itself, but
that it was also good as regarded the interests of the Estab-
lished Church.—(" Hear, hear," ironically replied to from
the Opposition side.) But Hon. Gentlemen opposite said
that the hostility to Church-rates was confined to the Dis-
senters.--( Hear, hear.) Why, it was only that very day
that an Hos. Friend of his had informed him that in a cer-
tain borough in England, where the Dissenters were in a
considerable minority, the hostility to the rates had been
greater than in any other place.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon.
Friend, he believed, the Member for the University of Ox-
ford, had stated that there had been 1,659 petitions laid on
the table of the House in favour of the abolition of Church-
rates, but 2,746 in favour of the continuance of the rate. But
if the signatures to these petitions were taken into considera-
tion it would he found that there was a majority of 212,000
names of those who were hostile to the rates over those who
were in favour of them.—( Hear, hear.) Were all those,
then, the sienatures of the Dissenters, or were they the signa-
tures of Churchmen and Dissenters combined ?—( Hear,
hear.) They were, he would assert, of both.—( Hear, hear.)
He would now briefly refer, in answer to what had fallen from
the Hon. Member for Bradford last night. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had stated that the general body of the Dissenters did
not object to the payment of Church-rates, and that those who
did object were only a small portion of the Dissenters, and de-
aired to see the separation of Church and State.—( Hear.)
But he might be allowed to tell the Hon. Gentleman that of
the petitions presented there were 112 containing 21,465 sig-
natures in favour of the abolition of Church-rates, and saying
nothing of such separation—( Hear)---while at the same time
there was one from Chatham, which certainly did pray for the
separation of the Church from the State, but which contained
only 332 signatures.—( Hear.) He was not, then, of opinion,
that one person thinking differently from another upon matters
of religion was likely to be a fair interpreter of that person's
opinions, either upon religion or politics.—( Cheers.) With
respect to the proposed measure lie was not prepared to argue
that as it had been proved to be good in Ireland, therefore it
must of necessity be so in England ; but this he would say,
that if the principle of the measure was good in one country,
then it must he undeniably good in the other.--( Cheers. )
But it was said that it had been tot injury to the Irish Church,
and that the English and Irish Churches were indissolubly
connected and united with each other. But in Ireland Church-
rates had been abolished.—(Cheers)—and his argument was
not that they should, therefore, be abolished in England; hut
that if the principles of the measure which abolished Church-
rates in Ireland was good then that the Honourable Gentle-
men opposite had introduced that principle themselves—
( Hear, hear, hear) —and could not consistently oppose its in-
troduction, as they now slid, into England.—( Cheers.) If
the proposed measure was to leave the Church without sup
port--if it provided that the repairs of those buildings which,
while they afforded a proof of the piety of their Catholic
ancestors, were, perhsps, the cause of piety in the present
day, were to be left to the chance of voluntary contribu-
tions—then he would say there would be some reason for the
course pursued by the Honourable Gentlemen who opposed
it.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But when a certain, a 'defined,
and a well-secured provision was given, and that provision
was sanctioned by the State—( Hear, hear)—he must contend
that a greater perversion of facts was never presented to the
understandings of reasonable men than had been brought for-
ward in opposition to this measure.—(Cheers.) Now, it had
been said early in the debate that the House knew not what
artifices had been employed in procuring petitions in favour of
this measure, and that if the House was aware of the full extent
of those artifices it would see that the petitions of the country,
if left to itself, would be against the measure.—( Hear, from the
Opposition benches.) But did the Hon. Gentleman who
made that remark know that the first petitions in favour of the
proposed plan had emanated from one of the largest meetings
which had ever been held upon the subject of Church-rates ?
--(Cheers.) Those against the measure had been also intro-
duced to the public through the medium of a large meeting in
London.—( Hear.) He was not going to rest on this simple as-
sertion, but ho was further prepared to prove the way in which
many of the petitions against his plan were got up. He held in
his hand a paper written by Doctor Bowen, a man of great
literary merit, after the details of the measure proposed acre
made known to the public. [The Right Hon. Gentleman
then read the contents of the paper, which were to the follow-
ing effect:—" That the projectors of this measure of the
movement had at heart the destruction of the Protestant
Established Church. Let them only once declare the reve-
nues of the Church liable to the purposes of the State, and
the downfal of the Monarchy and the Establishment would
follow as a matter of course. It was impossible to touch any
of the revenues of the Church for State purposes without
committing an act of the grossest injustice. Be it remem-
bered that the principle of our national Church could not be
violated without robbing God of his honour and man of his
rights."] (Cries of " Hear, hear,") God forbid, if such
was to be the effect of the proposed measure, that the people
of England should not petition against any Bill having
fer its object the settlement of this question !—( Hear, hear.)
[The Right Honourable Gentleman then stated, that as
the House appeared lately to have exhibited an extraordinary
predilection for poetry, he perhaps might be allowed to quote
some verses in support of the Church Establishment, and
quoted a couple of stanzas, the exact purport of which did
not reach the gallery, and we consequently kit the applica-