The Sun.
London, England, 1837-12-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, DECEMBER 1, 1837.

Lord BROUGHAM had a petition to present from the
Lord Mayor and Aldermen of the City of London on the
same subject, which he had not an opportunity of pre-
senting earlier. The petitioners prayed for the adoption
of the plan recommended by Mr. Rowland Hill. He
(Lord Brougham) had been persuaded as well by the argu-
ments of the petitioners as by those of the ingenious and in-
dustrious originator of the plan. He would be prepared to
listen to the answer of his Noble Friend at the head
of the Department with the greatest possible disposition
to have his present opinion altered ; but it was only fair to
state that nothing that had fallen from him on the present oc-
casion had in the slightest degree altered his opinion.
NATIONAL ZDUCATION.

The Noble and Learned Lord then gave notice that to-
morrow he would bring in his Bill of last Session on the
subject of National Education in the form of two Bills—the
one being for the promotion of education among the people in
England and Wales, and the other being for the better
administration of charities.
Messengers from the Commons brought up the Commis-
sioners of the Peace Bill, which was read a first time, and
ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. .
Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Nor. 30.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
CHELTENHAM PETITIONS.
Mr. C. BERKELEY presented a petition from the town
of Cheltenham, on the subject of National Education. Before
he did so, he must complain of a want of courtesy on the part
of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of
Oxford. The Right Hon. Bart. had presented a petition a
few nights since from the same town and upon the same subject ;
and he thought it rather discourteous that he had not apprised
him of his intention to do so, as he could set him right upon
many facts. The present petition had been got up at a public
meeting of the inhabitants of Cheltenham.
The SPEAKER requested the Hon. Member to state the
prayer of the petition.
Mr. C. BERKELEY—The prayer of the petition was
that the House would confer on the petitioners the benefit of
some system of National Education, for no duty of a Govern-
ment was more important than that of providing a system
of moral and intellectual education. ♦ Right Reverend Prelate
in another place had chosen to say—
The SPEAK E R—The Hon. Member must confine himself
to the prayer of the petition.
Mr. C. BERKELEY wished to make some remarks upon
what had fallen from the Right Hon. Bart., for he had his
( Sir R. Inglis's) speech in his pocket, haling cut it out of a
newspaper.—( A laugh.) A Right Rev. Prelate—
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member must be aware
that he can make no allusion to what has passed in another
place.
Mr. C. BERKELEY—Why, Sir, the Right Rev. Pre-
late has taken an opportunity, in that place, to abuse and
vilify those who have got up the present petition, and I feel
bound to set myself right with this House and the public.
( Hear, and a laugh,)
The SPEAKER. —Would he be good enough to state the
contents of 117 s peti.•ion ?
Mr. C. BERKELEY.—Sir, I wish first to set the public
right with respect to statements made by the Right Hon.
Bart. opposite, and by a Right Reverend Prelate in another
House. The petition was stated by them to have been signed
by 5,080, but the manner in which these signatures had been
obtained was by sending the tax-gatherer round to all the
poorer class of inhabitants. Another class of persons who signed
it were a number of boys who were playing in the streets, and
who had been induced to sign it, and when they got home they
asked what they had been signing. Now, if a petition so
signed had obtained the attention of the House—
The SPEAKER would request o! the Hon. Member to
state the substance of his petition.
Mr. C. BERKELEY could not understand why the Right
Hon. Baronet should have been allowed to make such state-
ments while he was prevented from replying to them.
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member was quite mis-
taken. If the Hon. Member would follow the example of
the Right Hon. Baronet, he would merely state the sub-
stance of the petition, and the number of persons by whom it
had been signed. _

Mr. C. BERKELEY—But, Sir, I have got his speech in
my pocket, cut out of a newspaper.—( Much laughter.)
The SPEAKER—The lion. Member mutt be perfectly
aware that what has appeared in print is no evidence of vault
has taken place in this House.
Mr. BERKELEY then real the prayer of the petition,
,ALich was fail on the table.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS said, that the Hon. Member
was never more mistaken in his life than in the statements he
had made at the present moment. He (Sir R. Inglis) had
made no statement either on the one side or the other ; and if
the Hon. Member would only give himself the trouble to read
the document he had referred to, he would find that ho had
made no speech at all, but had only stated the contents of the
petition.
Mr. C.BERKELEY said, that in consequence of the state-
ment of the Hon. Member, he should give notice of his inten-
tion to-morrow to more that the petition presented by the Right
Hon. Baronet should be printed.—(Laughter.)
Mr. MACKINNON gave notice that he should, shortly
after the recess, move for the appointment of -a select Com-
mittee to inquire into the claims of Col. D'Arcy Talbot, on
the French Compensation Fund.
Sir THOMAS ACL AND presented a petition from
Wells against the bill for merging the bishopric of Carlisle
into that of Sodor and Mann.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS.

On the motion of Mr. S. LE FE VRE, returns were ordered
relative to Turnpike Trusts.
READING ELECTION.

An HoN. MEMBER, whose name we could not ascertain,
presented a petition against the return for Reading.
STATE OF THE PEOPLE.
Mr. SLANE Y was very sorry to bring forward his moton
in the absence of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home
Department, as that Noble Lord was particularly interested in
the subject which lie wagabout to bring under the notice of
the House—namely, the moral state of the lower classes in
this country. He had intended to move for leave to bring
in a Bill on the subject ; but in deference to one, for
whose opinions he had great respect, he hial abandoned
that intention, and he would then move that a Select Com-
mittee be appointed to inquire into the subject. It would be his
duty, in the first place, to bring under the notice of the House
the vast increase which had taken place in the more humble
portion of the community, especially in large towns ; and, in
the second place, he would show that their condition had not
been improved in the same ratio as the other classes, more
especially with respect to the education of their chil-
dren.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He would have to trouble
the House with some details, uponi the subject, as there were
so many new Members who might be unacquainted pith the
immense increase which had taken place in the manufacturing
population, and the absolute necessity there was for a better
system of education for these classes ; and he would endea-
vour to show, which he fully believed to be the fact,
that those classes could no longer be neglected with
impunity.—( Cries of " Ilear, hear.") As compared
with the agricultural population the manufacturing classes were
in 1801, 65 per cent.; in 1811, as 97 ; in 1821 as 85, while
in 1837 they had increased to more than two to one. In
the 30 years the increase in the agricultural population bad
been 45 per cent., white the manufacturing classes had in-
creased upwards of 100 per cent. He had made an es-
timate of five of the largest towns in the country. The
increase had been during the thirty years as follows :
In Manchester from 1801 to 1611 the increase had been
22 per cent., from 1811 to 1821, 40 per cent., and from 1821
to 1831, 47 per cent. In Glasgow the increase during the
first period had been 30 per cent. ; during the second
period 40 per cent. ; and in the third period 38 per
cent. In Birmingham, during the same periods, the
increase hrd been 16, 24, and 33 per cent. In Leeds
the increase in the first period had been 18 per cent.,
in the second period 34 per cent., and in the third period 47
per eent. In Liverpool the increase had been in the first period
26 per cent., in the second 31, and the third 43.
Within the last ten years the population of the com-
mercial and manufacturing towns had increased at three
times the rate of increase of the whole kingdom, and
four times that of the agricultural parts. Thus in the
five largest towns of the United Kingdom, excluding
the metropolis, the increase had been, in the first of the
three periods, at an average of 22 per cent. ; in the se-
cond ten years, 37 per cent. ; and in the last, 42 per
cent. In the manufacturing counties the increase had been
to that of the agricultural counties in the following ratios :
In Staffordshire, 3 to 1 ; in Warwickshire, 4 to 1 ; in
Yorkshire, 6 to 1 ; in Lancashire, 10 to 1 ; in Middle-
sex, 12 to 1. He would not now take up the
time of the House by dwelling upon the importance to the
country at large of those articles of import, to the work-
ing up of which the manufacturing portion of the popu-
lation owed its prosperity. But he had-by him the returns
which were at the service of any Honourable Member who had
any desire to comment upon them. But he wished especially
to call the attention of Hon. Members to the great increase
which had, in the moan time, taken place in the means
of comfort and luxury, which were at the command of the
rich and middle classes. The Honourable Member then
went through a detail of the increased duties which
had accrued within the last ten years upon taxed ar-
ticles of luxury and convenience, chiefly enjoyed by the
upper and middle classes. Amongst these he stated the in_
crease of the duty on tea within that period to have been 24
per cent. ; on sugar 13 per cent., and on coffee 126 per cent.
—( Hear.) He showed also the corresponding increase in the
duties upon stage coaches, riding horses, and mail servants ;
of those dwelling in the large towns there were two classes—
the skilled and the unskilled—.and while he acknowledged that
the skilled had in many instances improved in condition, and had
a greater command over the necessaries of life than at any former
period, he would be enabled to show to the House that the
unskilled had many privations, and even those in the com-
mand of higher wages were worse off than at former pe-
riods ; or if not worse off, in that low state, in that
humble and depressed condition--above all the children, which
called upon them to endeavour to do something for their
improvement. Without going into details, he would refer those
interested in the condition of the working classes to different
Reports on their condition—to the Report upon Education,
1835—the Factory Gaurnis,ioners Report in 1833—the Report
upon manufacturing cmploym “nt 1730; and the Report upon the
handloom-weavers, 1834. In the latter Report it was stated
that there was no less than 800,000 weavers dependent upon
this employment, in a most miserable condition. (Hear)
hear, hear.) There were statements made in the Report
of Education in the year 1835, to which he begged the
attention of the House. From a return by the Statistical
SJciety of Manchester, it appeared that in the town of Man-
ches'er one-tenth of the entire population lived in cellars ; and
in Liverpool one-seventh, that is to say 31,000 lived in:cellars,

and most of them in courts with only one outlet. From a
close examination of 166 houses in Bristol, it appeared one-
third were without drains, half of them without water, and 208
children above 7 years old were sleeping in the same room
with their parents. In a district in Marylebone, the neigh-
bourhood of the most wealthy houses of that opulent parish,
were 578 families, 380 of whom had only one room. It
might be stated that if he turned to the increase of deposits
in Savings'-banks, he would find that the humbler classes had
improved in their condition ; but when the return came
to be analyzed, it would appear that of the workmen
in the staple trades of large towns, the proportionate
number of deposits was very small. In Nottingham, of
6,100 deposits only 790 were traced to be made by
persons in the staple trade of that town. In re-
spect to those of the humble classes engaged in friendly
societies, the amount deposited in 1830 was 714,0001., and
the number of the depositors 4,553 ; and, in 1836, the amount
of deposits had only increased to 726,0001., the number of
depositors to 5,300, an increase very small in six years.
It might be thought that some of these matters were
irrelevant to the subject before the House ; but he
trusted if the House would give him its attention for
a few moments, when he came to a statement of the in-
crease of crime within the kingdom, he would convince them
that it was absolutely necessary to take some steps for the im-
provement of the condition of the humbler classes in the large
towns.—( Hear, hear.) He would now call their attention
to the number of criminals committed in England and Wales,
which in the year 1805 was 4,600 ; in 1810, 5,100 ; in 1815,
7,800 ; in 1821, 13,000 ; in 1828, 16,500; in 1831,
19,600; and in 1832, 20,000. The number had increased in
the following years, and had very little diminished down to the
hour when he had the honour of addressing them. That was to
say, that in 20 years (from 1810 to 1832) the committals had
increased four-fold, while the population had only increased 32
per cent. If they took the average of seven years, taking the
first at 1819, the second at 1826, and the third at 1833,
they would find that in the first period the number
of committals had been 72,000 ; in the second pe-
riod, 95,000 ; and, in the third, period, it had
increased to 131,000—50 that while the population had in-
creased in the same period only 18 per cent., the committals
for crime had been 90 per cent. Taking the numbers as
compared with the population, it would appear that the
committals for crime in 1811 had been one in 1,600 ; in
1821 it had been one in 860 ; and in 1831 it had been one in
686. The number had been something smaller in the last
year, but it was by no means satisfactory evidence of an im-
provement in the condition of the people. It varied from 100
per cent. diminution in isloithamptonshire, to an increase in
Staffordshire and Wsewickshire of from 10 to 19 per cent.
He held in his band a rather curious return from the Metro-
politan Police Officers, from which it appeared that in the
year 1831, the number committed was 72,800, and in the
year 1832, it was 77,500. The particular class he wished
to call attention to was those committed for drunken-
ness, of whom it appeared there were, in 1831, 23,700,
and in 1832, 25,700; of these 1,500 were men, and 10,000
were women. 1 here had been since then, he was happy to say,
a decrease in the number of committals. There were 72,000
committals in 1831, and in 1836 only 63,000 ; this decrease,
however, was partly to be accounted for by the police guarding
persons in a state of intoxicatioe to their homes instead
of bringing them to the police offices as before. When,
therefore, he came to the conclusion that a slight im-
provement had taken place in the morals of the people,
he was bound to state that it was in some measure
owing to the improved state of the police. He now
wished to call their attention to the state of Liverpool,
and he regretted that he did not see the Noble Lord
the Member for that town in his place, as he was sure
that he would bear him out in the statement he was about to
make. By a return laid before the statistical section of
Liverpool, it appeared that out of a population of 230,000,
the criminal population of that town was 4,400 males
and 4,080 females. What he was now about to state
related to the well-being of the humbler classes of
Society, and he hoped that Hon. Gentlemen would give theiz
attention to what he conceived to be a subject fraught with
the deepest interest. He wished now to call their attention
to the proportion of crime to the population in dif-
ferent parts of the kingdom. In England and Wales
it was 1 in 619. In Bristol, 1 in 290. In the county of
Middlesex, 1 in 336. In the County of Lancaster 1 in 480.
In the county of Chester, 1 in 490 ; and in the county of
Anglesea, 1 in 8,000. There was now another subject
to which, after stating the vast increase of crime,
he wished to call their attention—a subject which he hoped
t. onld be explained consistent with the well-being
of society. lid held in his hand a return of the number of
gallons of spirits which had been used in the United Kingdom
for the last twenty years. In 1317 there were used 9,200,000
gallons ; in 1827, 18,230,0 )0 ; in 1837, 39,227,000 ; that is
to say, the consumption of spirits had trebled in 20 years ;
while the population had increased only one-third.
The result therefore was, that the consumption of spirits had
increased in a nine-fold degree with respect to the popula-
tion A statement had been made by a gentleman well
known for his accuracy relative to the consumption of
spirits, and according to that calculation the consumption of
spirits had increased to such a degree that every person drinking
ale who was more than twelve years of age consumed no less than
a gallon and a half of raw spirits. He should feel indebted to
to Henourable Members who would answer that state.
ment satisfactorily. He could not but think that it was
necessary to direct the attention of Parliament to this sub-
ject, because lie was convinced that the statements he was
about to make were inconsistent with the welfare and happi-
ness of the people. He had stated that the amount of the
consumption of spirits was no less than a gallon and a-half per
head. But if the House were to look to the calculation
in another point of view, and consider who really were
the consumers of spirits, they would find that the amount
was increased nearly double. There were those who were
willing to cast great blame upon the humble classes for their
indulgence in spirits. No man more lamented it than he did,
because he felt convinced that it was a most fertile source of
crime; but still it must be remembered that spirits were in fact
the poor man's opium. It was spirits that gave him some little
relaxation from the misery by which he was surrounded. His
object in bringing forward the present motion was, to direct the
attention of the House, not so much to the whole body of the
population of the country as to those who inhabited large towns,
and it was to them and their children's condition, that he wished
to direct the House's attention. That condition, he would ven-
ture to say, increased disease, created feuds, and deprived the
poor of almost every comfort of life. Having adverted
to the state of their parents, he would now, with the
leave of the House, make a few observations relative to
their children, and in doing so he trusted that the House
would favour him with its attention for a very short period.
He would not trouble the House upon the subject if he did not
believe that the claims of the unfortunate individuals he was
about to bring under its attention most imperatively demanded
the consideration of the House. In speaking of the educa-
tion of the lower classes, he could not but feel the
great debt of gratitude that ,was due to a Noble Lord
(Lord Brougham) for the great exertions that he had rnade to
improve the education of the lower classes. There could be
but one feeling of gratitude towards him, for all that he had
done, and was still doing, to improve the education of the
lower classes. In addressing the House upon the subject, he
could not help mentioning the name of the Hon. Member for
Waterford, to whom great praise was due for his exertions in
the cause of the poor. He would now turn to the state
of education in this country, and in doing so
he would not found himself upon those returns
alone that had been made relative to Manchester
and some of the large towns, as they had been
shown to be defective, but would refer to returns which he
knew to be accurate, and which he would confidently state de-
served the attention of the House.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
As there were no general returns upon the subject, he was
compelled to avail himself of those partial returns which
he had been able to procure. He wculd trouble the
House with reading some extracts from a publication issued
from the Statistical Society, relating to the condition of the
labouring poor. The Hon. Member then read a comparative
statement of the numbers of the labouring poor in the towns
of York, Bury, Manchester, Liverpool, and the township of
Ashton and Staley-bridge, but we could not correctly catch his
figures. For the purpose of showing the state of education in
these populations, he had taken the proportions of the numbers
of those who received instruction in public or private schools.
He had divided the instructed part of the labouring people into
two classes—those who went to day schools, and those who
went to Sunday schools. In the city of York, those who went
to day schools were to the rest of the population in the
ratio of 17 per cent., whilst those who attended Sunday schools
were only 3 per cent., making a total of 20 per cent. In Bury
the attendants of the Day-schools were 13 per cent., of
the Sunday-schools 15i per cent., making the total of those
who received instruction of any kind in this large town only
28 and a fraction per cent. In Manchester and Salford, 101
per cent. went to the Day-Schools, and 11i per cent.
to the Sunday-schools, making a total of 22 per cent., or
scarcely one in four. In Liverpool the attendants at the day-
schools were 12i per cent., at the Sunday-schools only
total, 14 per cent. In Bolton 6 per cent. went to the day_
schools, and to Sunday-schools so much as 151 per cent ;
making, however, a total of only 21)r per cent. In the large
commercial town of Bristol, but 4 per cent. of its large
population receive the benefits of instruction in the
daily schools—and only 8i per cent. attended the Sunday
schools—making a total of 13 per cent. In Ashton and
Staley-bridge, the Sunday-schools were attended by 2, not
quite 3 per cent., but the Sunday-schools showed a rate of 23
per cent., making a total for this township of 26 per cent.
not quite. Now, in the five parishes of Westminster in which
they (the House) were then assembled, the proportion of
those who attended day-schools was, to the whole population
of the city, no more than 10 per cent—( Hear)—whilst those
who attended Sunday-schools were only 3 per cent. It appeared
therefore, from those returns, that the number of those who
went to any kind of school was in York only, as 1 in 5 to the
population of that city. In Bury as 1 in 33. In Manchester
as 1 in 4i. In Liverpool as I in 7. In Bolton as 1 in 5. In
Bristol as 1 in 7. In Ashton and Staley Bridge as 1 in 4.
And in Westminster as 1 in 8. Now, however valuable the
instruction in Sunday Schools might be, no one could think
that, Sunday instruction alone could be sufficient.—( Hear.)
It appeared from this Report, that in many cases the school-rooms
were so small and badly ventilated, that the atmosphere was quite
oppressive and dangerous. In ene instance, forty children were
bound in a room only ten feet by nine. The vast proportion of
children who went to Day-schools received no instruction at all
worthy of the name (speaking of Manchester, Liverpool, Sal-
ford, Sac.) The greater proportion of the teachers were quite
incompetent to their task, and in many cases were only induced
to undertake it because unable in any other way to support
themselves. One waster being asked if he used the globes
in teaching geography, replied in the affirmative, adding that
one globe was for one half of the earth, and the other for
another half. —( Laughter.) Another being asked whether he

taught reading, writing, Latin,: Greek, &c., answered
" Yes," to every query, and the visitor remarking, " that
is indeed multum in pan's," eagerly said, " Ycs—
you may put that down too."---(Laughter.) In another CM
the mistress said she gave the children instruction both as
Protestants and Catholics, for she " let both catechisms go
together, so that no harm could come." He (Mr. S. )
asked those who felt an interest upon this subject, who were
desirous of benefiting the humbler classes, to turn their at-
tention to these documents, and see how melancholy a picture
they exhibited.—( Hear, hear.) It would appear that in
the large manufacturing towns to which he had referred, the
proportion of children below the age of five years (as we
understood) was 25 per cent., or one-fourth of the whole.
For these, certainly, instruction ought to be provided; but
the daily schools in Bolton, furnished instruction only for one-
sixth—Bristol only for one-twenty-fourth ; in the popu-
lous districts of Lancashire only one-forty-sixth of
the population. But numbers were-no criterion of improve-
ment ; and he had shown the House how grossly ignorant were
many of those to whom the instruction of the rising genera-
tion in these districts was committed. He did not deny that
there were many excellent schools ; but he said there ought
to be the means of instruction provided for all, which
sow were only available to few. By the returns of Mr. Hor-
ner who had made a report on the state of the factories, it ap-
peared, frail an examination of the children ot• the ages of
13 and 14, above the operation of the education clauses
of the Factory Act, that there were of the boys forty-
nine and a half per cent. who could not read, and sixty-
seven per cent. who could not even write their names.
Of the girls there were 57 per cent. who could not read,
and 88 per cent. who could not write their names. As
a general result, it appeared that half the children in all the
manufacturing towns had no means of obtaining education ;
and he could with confidence assert that three-fourths
of the poorer children throughout the great towns
of this country were without any effective education.
Let them compare the state of education in England with
other countries. He had returns in his hand which showed
how much we were behind in this respect. In Nassau, the
population were educated in the proportion of 1 in 6 ; in Saxony
1 in 6 ; in the State of New York, 1 in 4 ; in Switzerland,
1 in 5, and in England only 1 in 8, and in some of the large
manufacturing towns only lin 17. He was sorry to be under
the necessity of troubling the House with these details ; but it
was necessary that he should do so, in order that they might
arrive at a proper conclusion on the subject.—
( Hear, hear.) These returns he had obtained
with considerable trouble ; for owing to the indifference of
the Government to the subject, no returns had been procured
in relation to it.—[The noise and impatience of the House
drowned the remainder of the sentence.] —He
begged that Gentlemen would not consider these de-
tails so uninteresting.—( Hear.) He appealed to them
on behalf of the people of these countries. Was there any
gentleman in that House who as a father did not feel the
deepest interest in the • welfare of his children, and who
did not regard their education as a primary object? He
called upon both sides of the House to lay aside their
party animosities, and to turn their . serious attention
to this important subject.—( Hear, hear.) He lamented to
think that Gentlemen who represented large communities,
should be so indifferent on a subject which was so deeply inte-
resting to their well-being and happiness. It was shameful
for Gentlemen, who were such a short time since before their
constituencies, and who pledged themselves to promote
their interests in Parliament, to betray such inattention when
a subject which so deeply concerned them was under discus-
sion. It was not for himself he claimed their attention. If the
subject were disregarded in that House, he could tell Hon.
Gentlemen that they would have to account for it when
they presented themselves elsewhere. He called on the
Noble Lord who sat near him, he called on the Gentlemen
who supported him, to give their aid to his plan, for it was
a Reform measure.—( Hear, hear.) He called on the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite to give his assent to it, for it was
Conservative measure; for it was a measure that would uphold
the interests and promote the comforts of the humbler classes.
It would be presumption in him to hope that his plan would be
received by the House more than as a matter of suggestion.
He ventured to suggest to the House that a plan could be
devised by which education could be given to all classes. He
begged, however, before he entered into the details of such a
plan to call their attention to some facts. It must be
admitted by every one that a separate plan of education
must be framed for Churchmen and Dissenters. He would
suggest that it should be done by the British and Foreign and
the National Schools ; and he would further suggest that a
school- rate of not more than 6d. in the pound should be raised in
places consisting of not above 5,000 inhabitants, to be voted by
Commissioners in vestry ; and this being raised, or any less sum
by subscriptions or donations, the Government should add a
fourth to it, or any proportion that might be deemed proper,
from the Consolidated Fund, and that the whole should then
be divided between the British and Foreign and the National
Schools, according to their respective number of scholars. If
it were divided among them according to the number
of scholars, it would be divided according to the wants of the
particular places. He was convinced that' if facilities were
thus given to persons to exert themselves they would imme-
diately take advantage of it. There ought likewise to be a
Board or a Minister of Education appointed, from whom
proper returns on the subject might at all times be obtained.
He did not pretend to say that this was the plan that ought
to be adopted—he merely threw it out as a suggestion ; but
having spoken to several persons interested in the subject, he
had not found that there was any objection to such a scheme.
—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Where there were many Dis-
senters, the proportion of them would be large, and they
would pay largely ; where, again, there were many Church-
men, they would have large proportions of land, and they
would pay largely also—so that there would be a due appor-
tionment. One individual could not perform anything important
by himself in this country; he could only bring the subject before
the public and Parliament, and trust to receiving the support
of the Government in it. He did not believe that the House
was aware of the proportions of the different denomi-
nations that existed in the large towns of this country.
He held in his hand a return of the number of Sunday scholars
in several towns, and to what denomination they belonged:—
In Liverpool, in the Church schools, there were 6,118
scholars; of the Roman Catholics, only 700 ; and the Dissen-
ters, 7,000 or 8,000. In Bolton, in the Churclaschools, there
were 6,769 scholars. In Manchester and Salford, in a popu-
lation of 250,000, in the Church schools there were 13,000
scholars; Catholics, 4,500; and Dissenters, 25,280, being 59
per cent on the whole population. In Bristol, with a population
of 120,000 the number of scholars attending the schools of the
Established Church was 4,370 ; Wesleyan and other Dis-
senters 8,860, being double the number of the scholars
who attended the schools of the Established Church. Ile
had also a return of the number of the heads of families
and lodgers in Manchester and Salford, and according to those
returns 26,000 belonged to the Established Church, there
were 12,000 Dissenters, and upwards of 7,000 Catholics,
and there were no less than 4,000 that professed no religion all.
Nov, he would ask, whether that was not a state of things
which called loudly for enquiry ? He fearlessly asserted that
it was, and he called upon the House and the country to give
him its assistance. He would not believe for a moment
that the House, when it came to look more into detail
upon this important subject, that it would not allow it
to pass by unnoticed. He called upon the House to give its
best consideration in the name of humanity and justice.
—( Hear, hear.) Was i i just, he would ask, to pass
penal enactments to send poor men's children to distant settle-
ments, when he had no means of judging right from wrong ?
There were several gentlemen, few he hoped in that House,
to whom it would be useless for him to address himself on
the score of humanity ; but perhaps the ground of
safety would awaken them to a consideration of this
subject. What had been the result of not extending
education? Why the County Rates had increased,
and the prisons had been filled with criminals.
[The Hon. Member was fer some minutes inaudible, from the
noise in the House.] He said he should not detain Hon.
Gentlemen very long. —( Hear, and laughter.) He was confident
that affording a good education would be the greatest economy.
Ignorance was the most costly thing the State could possess.
In the immediate neighbourhood of the House there was a
penitentiary which had cost the country more than 250,0001.
of which nearly the whole might have been saved by educating
the children of the poor.—( Hear.) But the Government of the
country took those who were hardened in iniquity, and subjected
them to a process of penal discipline which was relied upon for
effecting a change more miraculous than what was sought
for by the alchemist of old. It was impossible to convert
the hardened criminal into that innocent state in which he
might have been preserved if the Government of the country
had done its duty to him. Had the Legislature begun with
the best means of preventing crime, namely, the education of
the helpless youth, ten times as much good would have been
done at ten times less cost. He assured them that he did
not believe that the splendid edifices which he saw
around him stood upon safe foundations. The great
body of the humbler classes in this crowded town
were aggrieved, and what else could they feel when
they saw their children exposed to strong temptation,
whilst the Government had ' provided for them only
severe and fruitless punishments, but had made no provi-
sion for their instruction or support.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
When he saw her Majesty in her splendid palace, sur-
rounded by the Nobility of the land, he wished to God he
could present to her some of the children of her poorer
subjects, and he was sure she would not turn from them with
contempt.—( Hear.) He called upon that, her first Parlia-
ment, to do something for them, if it were but for her sake.
He hoped her Majesty's Ministers would take the subject up_.
he hoped that Honourable Gentlemen on the other side, who
were loud in their advocacy of the poor, would assist him,
so that in this matter at least all sides in that House
might unite, omitting all party considerations for the good of
the community.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member concluded
by moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the condi-
tion of the labouring classes.
Sir G. STRICKL AND thought the House and the
country were much obliged to the Hon. Member for his assi-
duity upon such au important subject. His Hon. Friend,
however, had forgot to mention that the Government and that
House had at various times granted a sum of 20,0001. for
for the purpose of building schools—thus meeting the very
difficulty started by his Honourable Friend. He could
not agree in that proposition of his Honourable
Friend, which went to raise a sixpenny rate upon
all property in the country. It would be a most dangerous
principle, for it would teach the people to depend for educa-
tion upon the Government in place of the parents, upon
whom all such responsibility ought to rest. Let them
grant money for building schools, and let them promote
education in every way that was possible ; but let them not
teach parents to neglect the education of their offspring. With
these few observations, he had much pleasure in seconding the
motion.

Mr. BROTHERTON said—As the Hon. Member for•

nee R. df:

Shrewsbury has alluded to the state of ignores-
gradation in which the humble classes of Manchester to
state
neighbouring towns were placed, he felt called upon
4
s
that he must reluctantly admit the truth of his gatemen.
He had the honour to present lately a petition from theroalthy
of Salford for a system of education that would givet.it;
class of her Majesty's subjects the benefits of education;
and
he had attended one of the largest and most respectable
meet-
ingswes himselfdinisetohsesetdo.wnHeofeoMoladnt'iliakeesteurp,onat
of higher
System of Education. No subject certainly could
strong feeling in that neighbourhood in behalf ofhta; National
an un-
es
House
wbieh ttoh esay same
eresuvibjeeseat
importance, but it was at all times impolitic to adddrtehs
willing audience, and, therefore, as he perceive
was anxious to proceed to other business, he should reserve
what he had to say for a fitter opportunity.
desLeonrdesJthOeHgNr,,oßteUstScSreEdiLt Lfe—r Sthiro,
alhtlheintokatloieneHroi7;:hliecret:
has
lheh he hissipresented stated.—(Hear, eetu(ar
House the
hear.)nume I feel it eo
rousandvaluaboledeestsVis
v
The Hen'
on this occasion to say but a very few words.
Sir, to the
Member has moved for a Committee of Inquiry.
appointment of that Committee I can have no objectioon.tioaut
the same time, I agree in what I collected to be his
sinn,e,
upon this subject, that if there be any large and effectual
of education to be introduced into Parliament, it ought to
originate in, or to have the decided support of her M r_Y•s,
Government.— ( Hear, hear.) I certainly have been
.:71
persuaded that great benefit would result from any pnLmnore
Education which would make the benefits of Educatin
generally diffused in this country.—(Cheers.) Wh_artdevinest
the proportion of scholars in the different schools, 0
Iltctee
of
to the Statistical Returns made to the Comm
which my late lamented friend, Lord Kerry, was hi-
it must undoubtedly be acknowledged that there is still
Hear,
mcntable degree of ignorance in this country.—
Of this
hear.) Sir, a decisive, though a melancholy proof
of
is to be found in the Reports of the Inspectorsao.
Prisons, and of the Chaplains of the different g
Chmage
( Hear, hear)—from which it appears that Ileest.et
the rrisoners Jho come ender their care are totally
of the first rudiments of knowledge. When I consider, ho"
ever, what plans should be introduced,. there are various 02):
stacles that present themselves, which prevent me now verf
pdsing to the House a plan on the subject. One, and
a el
obvious reason is, that the time of this House Bass
to be occupied for some time by measures which. haveigalreeasg
been under the consideration of Parliament,
be further considered, and which will oce°PY
some time. Another is, that it requires the utmost deliberationf
to consider how the various obstacles which- are in the waY_io°,
a general plan car, be surmounted. I am quite carts
°f
that if a plan were adopted in which the religious feeling,t
the country were not consulted—( Hear)—it would only I.e:,
to a decided failure, and would be an obstacle to the r.ti.rit
which descry
duction of any plan hereafter.—( Cheers. ) But agreeine,l“
the religious feelings of the country should be consui.Tch
there is the next consideration, which is the way in which
we should reconcile the opinions of the Church and,
Dissenters en this subject?—( Loud cries of ‘, Hear, beefs
_,.
the Church being anxious that the catechism and doctrine
e°.'
the Chuch should be taught in the schools; the Dissent r_.
being exceedingly jealous and sensitive with respect to
0ti,311
introduction of any measure which they might think wocir
trench on their principles and creed.—(Hear, hear.)
it would shock these feelings—the political and civil feel,
..„
ings of this country—if we introduced any plan adopted 17:
those foreign countries which my Hon. Friend has mentioned
_,,
if we endeavoured to square and regulate, like the schoolsr''
Prussia and Russia, the schools of education in this coup
This consideration presents many obstacles which occur in nto
way of introducing any plan on the subject. I wish likewise,
another motive for delay—l wish to see the effect of tll°2o
discussions which have lately taken place in the country, 21a
which I expect will take place in Parliament on the subjec,'.
I am delighted to see the public attention of the country. ei.
rected to it— I cannot but expect, from the various rneetinf;
which have taken place, that a most valuable light will o
given as to any plan which may be adopted, and as to .a Y_
scheme which may conciliate the views of various!.
sects and parties.—( Hear.) I happen to know, moreove,s
that a Noble and Learned Friend of mine, whose name
identified with the cause of education—l mean Lord Brougua'i
—(Cheers)--has lately introduced a Bill with respect to tl2
subject, and has turned his attention to the manner in which elitt"s
cation might be more extensively introduced, and made Mere
general throughout the country. Seeing this attention ex;
cited, it appears to me that we will have further means dt
judging what is best to be adopted; and in giving my a'",
sent to the motion of my Hon. Friend, I may obsery
that it will be necessary, in my opinion, for Parlionee''
to take decisive measures for the promotion of education.---",
(Cheers.) The question is one which Government ought°,
to take up hastily, lest they might introduce a plea 1017
either met with the resentment and repugnance of the peel)/
of this country on account of religious feelings, or which woe,
make an additional motive of dissension between the Church
and the Protestant Dissenters. That would not be further-
ing, but obstructing the cause of education; and when I We
that such a plan may be adopted, I shall not commit myself
el
ly
solutely to any plan on the subject, but keep my attention stew
fixed upon it as one of the most important and practically
ici-
teresting to the great mass of the people of this country.
Lord SANDON trusted that the great interest of the qtles"
tion which had been brought before the House would ell
him for taking up a short period of its time. He agreed will
the Noble Lord who had just sat down, that it was desirab'e
that Government should pause before it took any definitive,
measure upon such a subject as the present ; but he thong
some plan ought to be devised by a Select Committtee or other,
wise upon the subject. When the neglect of the toe n,
and physical condition of the working classes was
sidered, it was no wonder that the gaols were fe.
If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would allow him (Lot
Sandon) to give his humble assistance, he would do all in
power to promote his object.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SL ANE Y, in explanation, said he never con:till'
plated that a compulsory rate should be imposed- 110°,(
wished that rate-payers should have the tibwer
assessing themselves for the purposes of education. •
The motion for a Committee was then agreed to, to he °P,
pointed to-morrow (this day.)
Sir HARRY VERNEY rose to move the first readil
of the Bill to render owners of small tenements liable to the
parochial rates. He said that he would not trouble the 1-I°ll
at any length, as there would be another opportunity for disc'Ta
sing the details of the Bill. It gave to those occupiers whogl,lhe
the rate power to deduct it from the amount of the rent. Li,
Bill did not affect either Parliamentary or Municipal °aces- t
He hoped the House would allow the Bill to be read a - a
time, but he would not press the second reading until the e°
of February.
Lord SAND ON was understood to express himself 1113 fr
vourable to the Bill.
Mr. BROT HE RTON supported the Bill.
The Bill was then brought in and read a first time. ,
LIEUT. BLAKE—IRISH CONSTABULAg
Colonel PE RC EVAL, in rising to bring forward the aia,
tion of which he had given notice, had hoped that her
that
jesty's Ministers would have conceded to him the parrs ,ea
he had asked the House to give him in the first notice entetbo
in his name; for from the conversation he had had witbeald
Noble Lord the Secretary at War, he considered the 141, the
Lord to have on his part no objection to the production of
the
charge against, and the sentence upon Lieut. Blake, °bo
55th Regiment, at the period stated in the pope
fort the
House of Commons. In the papers that he soughtdiary
ground of dismissal was stated with respect to the stiWi
magistrate Blake—that very stipendiary magistrate being, of
same Mr. Blake who had been cashiered when an offie,io
the 55th regiment. He asked of the House to grant Poo
those charges against Mr. Blake, and that sentence, wit. vi td
approbation of the Prince Regent thereon, with a I'ool
show how he (Colonel Perceval), an individual in the e° still
which be had the honour to represent, and, what he felt bad
more, those whom he bad the honour of representing;
been treated by her Majesty's Government in Irels t it
( Hear, bear, from the Opposition. He understood tna
had been stated that Mr. Blake bad been appointed to
ie.,
commission of the peace ten years ago. With that aPlrs,,se'
ment he had nothing to do. In May last, when a returutioce
made of the stipendiary magistrates appointed la, ar
the existing Government, his attention was drawn to tiew
pointment of Mr. Blake by a Noble Lord, with a Loge;
bringing the conduct of the Government before the ri_vetai
but he felt a delicacy in drawing attention to by-gond 0
with a view of injuring au), individual.—(Hear, !tae_arHialse
was not until subsequent events brought the same o'!.rjt bees
into a prominent, position before the public that he r's btca
self compelled to recur to by-gone transactions. It ti!°,, „ca.
stated by that high authority-that he ( Col. Perceval):La_".4.l,a
ferred certain charges against Mr. Blake, and that.
that
T.:b„,l
Government most readily granted the investigation tpatil'awetosi
prayed for. He felt that the Irish Government had
in
very differently towards him, when he prayed for an_..`ll,o
tigation, than they did to others when the attack was Hosea
against that high-minded individual, Major Browne.. e
from the Opposition Members.) The high individual b ,a
alluded to had sent Major Browne and Mr. Crossley a'
to Hoe. 11°4
Blake. Mr. Blake had accompanied, in January
be
and Learned Mt mber for Dublin from Castlebar _be
was present at the speeches made by that Hon. 117.jusri
tho
had dined in company with that Hon. Member i
infect
eiuseel
elaosotn,
twyhen those spirits came from other places to e.se
to it, and by which those individuals bad re
of Sligo with agitating turbulence, hither
On the
county to the degraded state in which it novewa.s_.. vote!
Ist of Febrear afterwards the same individual, (mr.
Government magistrate. It appeared that
responsible for this, dir
was appointed to the ostensible and responsibleth:itNuaotbsioen Lobourl
who represented her Majesty was not respons
a.. ,n the
the individual (Mr. Blake) was sent down tocZtly and
traction of his (Colonel :Perceval's) reduced th
be
at
pebiriseeonG6alovesime- as "t
t°
was sent down in a situation of trustn,ahthiavyeinago
language expressed his politieal partisanos_topt ,
edpPphroissit°l,lu°:sl!::lllii
ollt int
too him (Colonel Perceval.) The Nobl
theL a
first daY'' 13°11 to
collect that in the contest for Sligo he wrote
0,
the Ist of August, and on the 19thofatAattling;sthi; opirnoinoinci;
the Under Secretary Mr. Drummond,
the Gove
eiy
the conduct of Mr. Blake, and calling upon_u. He re:lie:4s4
to grant him an investigation into that conssdiogt.
the r
an answer from Mr. Drummond ettPr_estigaton, but
ocoswo.
of the Government to grant him anf v°
he sent ant
upon him for details. By return o
posttat certain -sod t°
to Mr. Drummond, in which
the truth of which he bat:
to
which, perhaps, he should have .
When he found that the investigation
e, stated 'l' about
.d to the charg „t were be
duct was to be solely confined
ter he bad written,d been gto „y
that sort of liberal investigation which
offence.t
a. 9 n
at
41;0 the
to throw their shieldhooss-aerw Blake; that it w lanted
—(Cries Oh. oh I" and laug was grit
the Radicals. He said it withouhttemo_ol, el" meannt!
isnwt oe a rA, cognizance,r
.bliefl°_rkeet
h'sel along'
to be that sort of investigation which

I

I

ecadac.
(if of that high-minded individual, Major Browne.—
clataeartn'ezille,ar, from the Opposition Members.) How was the
lie wa t Impeaching Major Browne's conduct authenticated?
the present in the Court, and the most responsible and
igaiou'run respectable of those who signed that document
he Major Browne declared that be had never seen it, that
it egad t never read it, and that he knew nothing of the charges
He seeaTed• He stated this fact upon his own responsibility.
liernbpc'llected when his Notle Friend (Lord Stanley) the
the colt: ?r North Lancashire, when he was Secretary for
as sti "le!, and that Lord Althorp recommended Mr. Blake
Lora, peadiary magistrate in Jamaica, he believed the Noble
itirmiretPnigh Mr. lilake was recommended by his colleague,
NI,
of? into his character and finding him wanting in the
„ellaiacter, if Mr. Blake were appointed he struck him
(Reor
a; 11" he did not, he refused giving the appointment.—
jesty,:er.) This was another reason to show that her Ma.
appoint „°vernment in Ireland knew nothing of the parties they
Idol eu•—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition Members.) He
aottid
113:1ot say one word more on this part of the case, as it
9oye, the ground of action elsewhere. Her Majesty's
tat ''rnent, however, restricted him to the case contained in
pro:_e!ter,when there were a volume of occurrences to be
kioteect_Which would have disgraced_ the appointers and the ap-
atite:it Had not the Lord Lieutenant sent down some one as
bar uPon Mr. Blake in the county, God knows what would
titotad at?Pened I When he was told that the proceedings
81111, ,',.'e in the nature of a court-martial, be sent to Colonel
tleke"nnady a copy of the court-martial upon Lieutenant
4,41_, Of the seven charges preferred against Lieut. Blake,
lion :Id only read the fourth ; that charged Lieut. Blake with
1813, Iltrag,cous and dastardly conduct, on the 16th August,
Vete' btuwards Captain Cloome, having waylaid and se-
NettYt eaten him with a stick, and having knocked him down
able" to his blows several times, until Captain Cloome was err-
ata! :drala his sword, when he (Lieut. Blake) ran away,
descriptiondiff of his person was circulated amongst the
fort, ent troops in Ireland. The finding stated that on the
dinhui charge the prisoner was guilty, and he was accor-
oftri csentenced to be cashiered. Then followed the approval
tlieesarrince Regent in the usual terms, and it was determined
stet h`aa_? sentence should be read at the bead of every regiment.
Pet, a" yet to learn why the government refused to lay the pa-
betaLte required upon the table of the House. They were to
te b„"krld upon the orderly book of every regiment, and appeared
the f "wn everywhere but in the castle of Dublin.—( Cheers,
bee tt rc" Opposition Members.) Another occurrence had
imputed to him by papers in the support of
ted government, that he, as an Orange magistrate, at-
aoto ed at the case of a man charged with murder. He did
of
tial ttead
it. There were seven magistrates attended, and
Go2,;se five who had sianed the coMmittal, including the
b:rietnent maaistrate, an that Mr. Spelman should
rite bailed ; and he had to add that he believed'not one of the
p,ogiStrates was an orangeman. He found it necessary to dis-
ao:e the statement respecting Mr. Spelman, and should
Inv conclude by moving for " a copy of the charges, find-
ttreit and sentence of a general court-martial, held at Har-
leant On the 9th of August, 1816, and continued by adjourn-
lZi to the 26th of the same month, upon Lieutenant
aroet, Ird Wake, of the 55th regiment. together with the ap-
craa''' of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, and the
f -rs of his Royal Highness the Commander- in-Chief in re-
ereenc,e thereto."
Baid, )"el CONOLLY, in seconding the motion, felt, he
etse actuated by two considerations in ding so—one was
oth„nt,iallY connected with the subject before them, and the
pp -I' 'le should not conceal from the House was, that his own
slirsenal feelings were very much involved in it. He should
tale, in the first instance, to the matter to which his Hon.
paGallant Friend had referred, and then he should tres-
sei; uPon the House with a matter which was personal to him-
of In respect to the high authority and exalted station
'4 the
to noble individual already referred to, he should. yield.
dual° Irian ; but, in proportion as the station of the indivi-
tett was exalted, so ought, he thought, to be modified the
Ishieekand language of his Excellency in another place,
.in
(ca,"
areno hia Excellency ha imputed a mis-statement to him
sa Courtly) This arose from a great misapprehension
ane part of that. noble person. The charge was preferred
the" a statement made about a man named Allen, under
'l, , iMnression that he was relating a transaction near
jout,°ahereuray, in the county of Sligo, when his statement was
tla et in relation to the attempt to murder another person
trt •
Y.six miles distant from that place. Although a large
t4,_41 Subscription had been raised, the Government had not
T'lLiert the slightest notice of the brutal attempt at massacre.
his 's individual had been thus brutally treated simply because
father la.d voted fur Colonel Perceval. The unfortunate
man had been pursued through two counties ; he had been at-
o4eked in the face of day and in a public fair, and when he had
e
Illitured to call attention to the fact, a high authority in
it oer l
to p ace charged im with a mis-steent. He begged
rthemind the House that Mr. Blake wtaas tmhe stipendiary ma-
istrate who ought to have supplied the Government with the
necessary information. A very extraordinary course had been
ttl.irstled towards himself. A Noble Lord, in another place,
ta'' chosen to style him an itinerant orator.—( Loud 1augh-
.41..) A more unfounded or offensive charge had never
it-caped the lips man.—(Continued laughter.) He had
"tiled only at e public meeting in 1837, and that took place
he eighteen miles of his house. Upon such an invitation
''e had dined once in public ; and he would ask if upon such
Pounds that exalted personage was justified in calling him an
Itinerant orator ?—( Renewed laughter.)
Lord MOR PET El said he was sure it would be most
4greeable to the House that he should confine himself princi-
pally to the subject before them ; but he felt bound, in the
first instance, to refer to the digression into which the House
i;dh,een led by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Donegal.
ave„rd only to observe, that with regard to the offering of re-
variatif°r the detection of offences, Government almost in-
The el Was guided by the report of the proper officers.
frm Government thought, and with justice, that the parties,
o
beat- their intimate knowledge of the transactions, were
qualified to offer suggestions on the subject, and to tell
Whether the offer of a reward would conduce to the detection
(:d the Offence. The Hon. and Gallant Member for Donegal
111
alluded, not with strict regularity, to some comments made
elsMee_w,herc• Now, he thought that the Hon. and Gall ant
th 'otter viewed these charges in rather a graver light than
Witwere intended to be conveyed. He admitted that his
xeelleney
%chi a the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in the speech
a 2 Le" he had made elsewhere, had been misled, inasmuch
then,
had. thought that he was alluding to one transaction,
en, in fact, he alluded to a different transaction.—( Hear,
Lear.) At the same time it should not be forgotten that
allusion had been made in a manner most derogatory to the
character of the Government, in which they had attributed
tAlthem an insensibility to the protection of the lives of her
aiesty's subjects.—( Cheers from the Ministerial side of the
aeuse, re-echoed by the opposition.) With reference to the
eepression " Itinerant Orator," he thought that the Hon. and
Gallant Member had invested it with a more offensive ap-
pearance than he needed to have taken upon himself to have
iinvested it with. The great extent of the property of the
rather
and Gallant Member in various parts of Ireland led
ther to a multiplication of his appearance on the political
se. and the Hon. and Gallant Member should remember
the he delivered his own sentiments rather too warmly to entitle
Line to any special forbearance on the part of others. He pre-
sented .
that the word " orator" was not the part. for.which
t: had to offer an apology.—(Great laughter.) With reference
the motion immediately before the House, he was not
awareca of any technical objection on the part of the War-
twee or the military department to the production of the
papers moved for. But he would proceed to state briefly
t Y he thought this motion should not be made, and if made
I all, why it shonld not be made by the Hon. and Gal-
-1,,11t Member for Sligo. He did hope that sufficient pub-
'ettY had been already given to this transaction to dispense
wife
recapitulate
.the necessity of fu-rther proceedings. He would briefly
21. paulate the circumstances of the case. lie. had seen after
We arrival of the present Lord Lieutenant in Ireland the
:Ititte of Mr. Blake submitted as a proper and eligible per-
ti -t° he appointed a stipendiary magistrate. A recommenda-
na,-, statig his qualifications in
sign terms, had been
entea to tae Lord Lieutenantd by the Lord-lieu-
",
,n,4,tit of the counts', Lord Oranmore, by Lord Dillon, and
rriii.aa string of other names of the highest respectability.
la„trt recommendation had been supported by the Hon. Mem-
th for the county, and he had been informed on all s.idle,_sethaa-t
appointment of Mr. Blake was a proper and elir 1
emp_
tcantment. When they had duly considered theselir recom-
mendations
sh'nditions they determined that on a vacancy
beefuld be appointed. This decision had been. vacancy Mr.
long
ri-,„,ere they knew anything of Mr. 131ake being a car-
n and
Learned
or dining at the same table with the
tioen-l'TlNed Member for Dublin.—(Cheers from the
this would
Aiie: formed any disqualification.—( Loud cheers from h
table with
Benches.) He had sat himself at the sameß
`e with the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin—( e
Dublin—(Re-
f -Wed eheering)—and he, at least, should not press to exclude
;feel offices those who adopted a similar courae.—( Cheers.)
Itt7revcr, as it happened, Mr. Blake's accompanying the Hon.
ailth'i_earned Member for Dublin to Sligo had nothing to do
ara. his appointment • indeed, from the dates which the Hon.
heat Gallant Member for Sligo had himself stated, it appeared
laßat Mr. Blake went to Sligo on the 21st of January, and
. thtt aPPointment Was gazetted on the Ist of February, proving
anything
at the time the Government could not possibly know
ehing of Mr. Blake accompanying the Hon. and Learned
stiernber for Dublin. Mr. Blake was accordingly appointed
tiol'nendiary magistrate, and in addition to the recommenda-
liawhich Government had received from those best qua-
fot,„•-, to give accurate and satisfactory information, they
a,,aa that this gentleman had acted for eleven years as a
Doitlent magistrate of the county of Mayo, having been ap-
,eted by Lord Chancellor Manners.—( Loud cheers.) Dur-
titiZthese eleven years there had been no rumour of miscon-
e4;vneo complaint against Mr. Blake had reached the ears
- 4 rtament.—( Cheers.) He would now come to the pc_
f c°l. the late elactions. The Hon. and Gallant Member
complained that Mr. Blake had identified himself
1.1.1Tt political party during his attendance at the election.
the.",e, Hon. and Gallant Member derived any benefit. from
thintmission he vitas not unwilling to confess that he did not
Thy this a most eligible appointment, and for these reasons.L
ta, appointment was necessarily made while the Lord. Lieu-
ti ?tit and himself were in this country attending to tirettre
u-
t:ititOnd from the numerous applications for asmstants
at-
iittl the elections, the appointments were made with some
4 e degree of hurry. The Hon. and Gallant Member
whose
ytt:l° himself admitted that there was gentleman to
b
Jecaleation for the discharge of his duty he made no o
.-
tan-a'ull, but, on the contrary, to which he bore high. testi-
aarv-IY, and who had been sent to assist Mr. Blake
.in pr,ea-t
ItV the peace during the election, It was true t 1
117 the termination of the election the Honourable andGal-
('ternber addressed to the Under Secretary for Ireland
•' butnimond) a letter containing sundry complaintsrbe
Zia' mast the Conduct of Mr. Blake during the election. 1
d Member had been informed, and as be
thought, Riost )properly that before the Government could
7

explanation was forwarded to the Gallant Colonel. The Gal-
lant Colonel, upon receipt of this, was not satisfied, and de-
manded an inquiry, which was accordingly directed to take
place. And to whom was this delicate investigation entrusted.
To a partisan—to a violent politician—to a man who would
have an interest or find a pleasure in screening the guilty or of
wrongfully convicting the innocent man? No : the investiga-
tion was committed to the hands of Col. Shew Kennedy, an of-
ficer of whom it was known that there was no man who, in his
official duties, manifested more thorough understanding and
good feeling ; and he was accompanied by a Queen's Counsel,
a gentleman of the name of Brooke, a gentleman who was
only known to be respected, who bad quietly pursued his
professional career apart from politics, and who had never taken
a part in anything which might be even termed culpable
agitation. When these gentlemen nisde their appearance
for the purpose of conducting the inquiry, the Commission
being already opened, and Mr. Blake being prepared with
his witnesses for his defence, the Gallant Colonel writes a
letter, trying that he could not undertake to maintain the
specific charges he had brought forward ; but stating that there
were other charges which ne could prefer, and which he should
be better able to substantiate. To this the Commissioners
replied, that the charges which the Gallant Colonel offered to
bring forward were matters with which they had nothing to
do, and which, therefore, they could not go into. One word
more. It had been alleged that Major Browne had been put
upon his trial upon receipt of the first letter of accusation
against him. But why was this ? Because this letter con-
tained specific charges against that individual, wick the first
letter of the Gallant Colonel did not. The charge against
Major Browne was specifically, that he had wantonly ordered
a charge of dragoons ;when none need be made, to the great
injury of the persons against whom it was directed.
Mr. D. BRO WNE acknowledged that he was the person
who recommended Mr. Blake as a stipendiary magistrate. He
presented a memorial signed by Lord Oranmore and Lord
Dillon, in which it was stated that Mr. Blake had been in-
trusted with the Commission of the Peace for the county of
Mayo, in which he had conducted himself with credit to him-
self, and to the satisfaction of the county. Mr. Blake had
also acted as Justice of the Peace for the county of Galway;
and bad even been appointed under a Tory Government, he
believed that of the Duke of Northumberland, to a lieute-
nancy in the Yeomanry Corps. Under these circumstances,
he (Mr. D. Browne) thought he was perfectly justified in re-
commending Mr. Blake as a stipendiary magistrate. He
could only say further, that at the time he was not aware of
the Court-martial on Mr. Blake, which took place only two
years after he was born, and could not, therefore, be said to
have occurred within his remembrance.—( Hear, bear.) The
Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to state, that at the Sligo
election he saw an individual of high character in the neigh-
bourhood strike an unoffending person, and that individual was
the Gallant Colonel oppcsite.—( Hear, hear.) He solemnly
affirmed, in the face of the House acd of the country, that
what he said was the case.
Colonel PE RC E VAL esever struck a man in his life.
Mr. D. BRO WNE—The Gallant Gentleman was within
two hundred yards of me when I saw him, I repeat, strike,
and that with not very slight exertion, an inoffensive peasant,
who did not appear to be doing any further harm than that
of running away from the political vengeance of the Gallant
Colonel. The Gallant Colonel also had complained that Mr.
Blake had accompanied the Hon. Member for Dublin from
Castlebar to Dublin. He would grant that he had done so—
he would grant, even, that Mr. Blake might have spoken
disrespectfully of the Hon. and Gallant Colonel; but if he
did so, he did not think that this was any reason why Mr.
Blake should be excluded from an official situation ; there
were many of the Gallant Colonel's associates of whom it
would be difficult to speak in any other terms. He trusted
that the Government would resist this motion, which was only
mrde to satisfy the cravings of an expiring faction.
Mr. F. SHAW began by observing that the Hon. Member
who had just sat down had made one statement of fact, in
which, upon consideration, he was sure he would admit him-
self to be mistaken, namely, that of his Hon. and Gallant
Friend having struck a person at Sligo. His Hon. and Gil-
lant Friend averred that no such occurrence had taken place,
and the Hon. Gentleman, who was distant two hundred
yards
Mr. D. BROWNE—Two hundred feet.
Mr. F. SHAW had certainly understood the Hon. Member
to say two hundred yards ; and surely at such a distance, par-
ticularly after the assertion of the Hon. and Gallant Colonel
to the contrary, the Hon. Member could have no difficulty in
admitting himself to have been mistaken.—( Hear.) He had
now one remark to make upon what had fallen, he was sure
quite inadvertently, from the Right Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman opposite charging his Hun. and Gallant Friend with
wishing to put Mr. Blake on his trial under unfair circum-
stances. When the inquiry was about to be instituted, and
Colonel Shaw Kennedy arrived, his Gallant Friend was in-
formed that the inquiry could not be u general one, but must
be confined to the circumstances of which his Gallant Friend
had personally to complain. His Gallant Friend, upon this in-
timation, at once declined to stand forward as Mr. Blake's ac-
cuser, in such comparatively trifling circumstances as he was
aware of, as the case would be very incomplete if confined to
these. As soon as it was resolved that no inquiry was to take
place, his Gallant Friend assured his constituents that he would
take the earliest opportunity of bringing the subject under the
notice of the House of Commons, and that pledge he had this
evening fulfilled. With respect to the fact, that a conditional
order had been granted in the Court of Queen's Bench against
his Gallant Friend, the Learned Attorney-General had really,
as it appeared to 11:.m, laid more stress upon that circumstance
than it was entitled to. _ _ _

direct a specific inquiry into the allegations, a specific and not
a general charge must be made. The result was a letter of
s ame length from the Hon. and Gallant Member, in which he
set forth three distinct specific heads of accusation. The letter
contained three specific charges ; and accordingly Government
directed an inquiry to be instituted into these three specific
heads of accusation. The inquiry was fixed for a certain day,
on a Monday he believed; there being another inquiry at the
same time instituted at the request of the other—the popular—
party in Sligo, against Major Browne. Both inquiries were to
take place continuously, and, in fact, there was almost the
same array of witnesses on each side, and the same person was
directing it, namely, Co!onel Shaw Kennedy, under the orders
of the Government. Three or four days after the day fixed for
the inquiry into the conduct of these parties, there came a
subsequent letter from the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Sligo, inclosing a memorial containing several other distinct
and specific charges against Mr. Blake. He referred this letter
to the Right Hon. the Attorney-General, in order to consult
him and have his advice, whether he thought such a pro-
ceeding would be fair towards an individual in an ordinary
case at law or equity ? They had been distinctly told by the
Right Hon. Gentleman that his opinion was, that having re-
ceived a series of specific charges against Mr. Blake, and
having directed an inquiry into these charges, and having
named the day on which the inquiry was to be appointed, it
would be neither just nor fair to graft upon the charges
already made, to foist into them, any separate and distinct
charge.—(Cheers.) They did not wish to prevent an inquiry
being held on these charges on a subsequent occasion ; but
they refused to go into these new charges until after the ter-
mination of the inquiry already directed. The Hon. and
Gallant Member for Sligo had been pleased to say that Go-
vernment had dealt out a different measure of justice to the
other party. In the course of the same proceeding, and when
the inquiry was proceeding against Major Bro wne on distinct
charges, an application was made to extend the inquiry into
the conduct of the troops. The Government, however, de-
termined to allow no new charge to be introduced in the
course of the proceedings, and they directed that the inquiry
should be made solely with reference to the grounds
of accusation already before them.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
and Gallant Member for Sligo had moved for the production
of the charges, finding, and sentence of the general court-
martial on Mr. Blake. That Honourable and Gallant Mem-
ber had expressed his surprise that Government was not ac-
quainted with the existence of this court-martial. The Hon.
and Gallant Member did not give them too much credit, for
he could solemnly assure him that till September last no know-
ledge of any such court-martial had ever reached them. He
could only say that if they had heard of it their conduct would
have been the same as at the present instant, for as soon as the
charge and the finding of the court-martial had been submitted
to them, they had never wavered in the course which they
thought right to pursue.—( Cheers.) The existence of the
court-martial was intimated to Government after the inquiry
had been directed into the conduct of Mr. Blake. He could not
understand whether the Hon. and Gallant Member founded
any charge upon the fact, but Government considered that
the finding of the court-martial formed a distinct subject of
inquiry from the conduct of Mr. Blake at the election, and
the inquiry was therefore allowed to proceed. Immediately
they heard of the sentence, Government thought it their
duty to request from the Commander-in-Chief a copy of the
sentence, and the report of the court-martial. It reached
Government about the same time that the inquiry which
had been carried on came to a termination, and directly the
proceedings connected with that inquiry came to a termina-
tion, in pursuance of the sentence of the Court- Martial, Go-
vernment thought it their duty to intimate to Mr. Blake that
they could no longer continue to accept his serviees as sti-
pendiary Magistrate. He confessed that he did not come to
this resolution without much pain.—( Hear, hear.) The pro-
ceedings had taken place twenty-three years ago.—( Hear,
hear.) Mr. Blake was then a very young man.—(Hear,
hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member for Sligo had read
one of the charges against Mr. Blake on the Court-Martial.
He did not remember, he was not quite sure, that the Hon.
and Gallant Member had read another part of the sentence,
namely, that the Court at the conclusion of the trial recom-
mended Mr. Blake to the merciful consideration of the Crown.
--(lmmense cheering from the Ministerial benches.) The re-
commendation of the Court was, however, not acceded to,
and the sentence was carried into effect.—(Cheers from the
Opposition.) But all this took place twenty-three years
ago. Mr. Blake was, as he said before, a young
man ; he had since for eleven • years continued to
fulfil the duties of a resident Magistrate. At the time he
was recommended for appointment as a Magistrate the cir-
cumstances of the Court-Martial had been brought under the
notice of Lord Chancellor Manners ; that Noble Lord in-
quired into them, and after doing so he still persevered in the
appointment of Mr. Blake.—( Cheers.) Having been thus
appointed, he for eleven years fulfilled the duties of the office,
and the step which they had thought it their duty, however
painful, to take, besides inflicting a large actual loss on this
gentleman, was also calculated to throw a slur and cloud on
his future peace and prospects.—( Hear, hear.) But, never-
theless, after the finding of the court-martial, they felt that
they had no other course open to them but a dismissal, sum-
mary, instantaneous, and complete.—( Hear, hear.) He had
hoped that this would have been sufficient to slake the hostile
feelings of his opponents.—(Loud cheers.) Ile did hope that
it would have slaked the hostile feelings even of the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Sligo. It seemed that he was mis-
taken, both from the motion which had been made, and from
the extract which the Hon. and Gallant Member had thought
it his duty to read to the House. But he did hope that that
House would consider that a sufficient penalty had been in-
flicted—( Loud cheers)—that sufficient publicity had been
insured, and that they would not give further publioity to
these old charges by assenting to the motion.—(Loud cheers.)
Having thus given his reasons for refusing his assent to the
motion, he had only to state the reasons why he thought the
Hon. and Gallant Member should not be the person to make
it. This he would do by simply stating what had occurred
within the last fortnight. In the Court of Queen's Bench in
Dublin lie found by the record that before the rising of the
Court Mr. O'Dowd moved, on behalf of Mr. Blake, for
liberty .to file a criminal information against the Honourable
and Gallant Member for Sligo. The affidavits in support of
the motion stated that on the 15th of August last, at the
election for the county of Sligo, whilst he (Mr. Blake) was
acting in the discharge of his duty and preserving the peace,
having railed off a particular space within which he intended
that neither of the parties should enter, some of Colonel Per-
ceval's friends pressed and entered into this particular space,
and Colonel Perceval, who wad present, called him a scoun-
drel, a rascal, and a coward.
Colonel PE RC E VAL said that those words had never
been attributed to him in the affidavits.
Lord MORPETH said he was reading the account of what
took place. The affidavit went ou to say that the only re-
ply of Mr. Blake was, " I thank you ;" that the witness be.
lieved that the offensive language used towards him was in-
tended to induce him to commit a breach of the peace. The
result was that the court granted a conditional rule. Of course
he (Lord Morpoth) could not venture to decide upon the
justice of the allegations or upon the merits of the case, but
he did submit to the House that the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber for Sligo would do well to be content to abide the issue
of the evidence, without moving one of the parties into a
court where it was impossible for them to meet on equal
terms.—( Cheers.) He had stated his reasons why he hum-
bly ventured to think that this motion ought not to have been
made, and why he thought the Hon. and Gallant for Sligo
ought not to have made it : and for these reasons, if the mo-
tion were pressed to a division, he would give it as flat a ne-
native as his voice or his vote could give it.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON should like to know what paper
the Noble Lord had referred to respecting the motion for a
criminal information, because he had seen the documents on
which that motion had been made, and he could state that the
affidavits did not venture to attribute one syllable of that
which
.the Noble Lord had thought proper to read to the
House as having been attributed to his Hon. and Gallant
Friend.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) It seemed to
him that what the Noble Lord had read was an extract from a
newspaper.--( Hear, hear.) He would only add, that the
county of Sligo had been peaceable and orderly until it suited
the purposes of certain parties to agitate it, and until the ap-
pointment of stipendiary magistrates, in the absence of the
Lord Lieutenant and the Noble Lord opposite, had devolved
upon persons who did not know those whom they sent to exe-
cute the laws of the country.
Mr. W 0 UL FE said that his Noble Friend (Lord Mor-
peth) had merely stated that he thought, under the circum-
stances of the case, that the charges against Mr. Blake might
have come with more delicacy from any other quarter than the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Sligo, and for this reason, that
there was pending between Mr. Blake and the lion. and Gallant
Member a litigation of a serious nature in the Court of Queen's
Bench in Dublin. That Court had already granted a conditional
rule for a criminal information for gross misconduct. He must
say this much with regard to Mr. Blake, that the proceedings
for which he was now punished took place many years ago.
The Lord Lieutenant with great pair had come to the proper
conclusion. He had never seen Mr. Blake ; he had never
spoken to him; he was not on terms of intimacy with any one
who, he believed, had any knowledge of him ; but he felt
called upon in common justice to say, that the conduct of Mr.
Blake as a Magistrate had repeatedly come before him uncon-
nectedwith party measures, and a more useful Stipendiary
Magistrate he had never known.—( Cheers.) He never heard
any complaint ; he had repeatedly had opportunities of wit-
nessin„e• his conduct in matters unconnected with politics, and
he had always found him a remarkably active, useful, and dili-
gentHe might refer particularly
notice in the north of Ireland : he meant the affair. of the
atlt:aicetiOinneoefrg."—retitCtll=nt, and which had excited much
againstln that a
eltalierm,
awnh cont.
tßhaellylsehsasenenonanfidshleersys..o—r
the name of Hector, and when a most atrocious a' tack
(cHoenaibrinehdear.)
was made on the property of Mr. Hector, Mr. Blake
had proved himself an eminently useful officer.—(Cheers.)
The first letter written by the Gallant Colonel containing
charges against Mr. Blake was couched in very general terms,
imputing partiality in his official capacity, and calling for an
inquiry into his conduct. He rather believed at the time this
letter was written his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant and
also the Noble Secretary for Ireland were not in that country ;
a letter however was written acknowledging the receipt of the
Gallant Colonel's letter, and stating that it contained charges
of a very grave character which demanded mature investiga-
tion, but that it would be impossible to put the party on his
trial unless the charges upon which he was to be tried were
in a more specific form. The Gallant Colonel then wrote
another letter, in which he did bring three specific charges
against Mr. Blake, which he numbered 1,2, and 3, declining,
however, at the same time, to become the public prosecutor
of that gentleman. Mr. Blake having been furnished with a
copy of the Gallant Colonel's rAter was called upon for
an explanation of his conduct. Mr. Blake, in com-
pliance with this invitation, did give such an expla-
nation as he thought the circumstances required, and this

The O'CO NOR DON said, that allusion having been
made in the course of the present debato to Lord Oranmore,
he had been requested by that Nobleman, in case such allusion
were made, to state, in his name, that some yelrs ago he had
been applied to to recommend Mr. Blake to the commission
of the peace, but that Mr. Blake having been ti iei and con.
victed by a courtmartial, he had declined doing so. Subse-
quently, however, Lord Bingham dil recommend Mr. Blake,
and be was appointed, not only to the county of Mayo, but to
the county of Galway, and after that also was made a Lieute-
nant in the yeomanry corps of Mayo ; in all which capacities
he (the O'Conor Don) believed that Mr. Blake had conducted
himself in a most unimpeachable manner. The Gallant Co-
lonel had this evening read those parts of the proceedings of
the court-martial whish bore most heavily on Mr. Blake, but
he (the O'Conor Don) thought the Gallant Colonel should in
fairness have read those passages also which tended to the
justification of that gentleman. It was true that this court-
martial cad found Mr. Blake guilty, but it was also true that
it had recommended him to mercy, because the officer whom
he struck was tha cause of all his misfortune, and because his
previous conduct had been unimpeachable. He hoped the
Gallant Colonel would withdraw this motion, and not press it
to a division.
Mr. SOMERS said, the Gallant Colonel had entered into
many particulars, but there were some which he had not stated,
and which were wanted to complete the picture. The Gallant
Colonel had not stated that there was a gentleman of great
influence and standing in Sligo, who had distributed a large
quantity of daggers amongst the peasantry, each of which bad
his name upon it, and that individual was no less a person than
the Hon. and Gallant Colonel himself.—( Hear I and a laugh.)
Was this the man who wanted explanation ? Did the Hon.
and Gallant Colonel forget the case of Simpson? He appealed
to the Gallant Colonel whether he did not take the hand of
that man, in Orange union, who was now under a charge of ma-
licious cutting and maiming? Did not the querulous Member
for Sligo—( A laugh)—hand pistols from the bench to Simpson,
desiring him to use them?—( Renewed laughter and cheers.)
He could corroborate the statement of the Hon. Member
for Mayo with respect to the Gallant Colonel's having struck
an inoffensive person. The Gallant Colonel did strike a man
with an umbrella.—( Loud laughter.) And much to the cre-
dit of Mr. Blake be it added, that this was the only breach of
the peace which was committed at this election. He would
ask the Gallant Member whether or not he had shaken hands
with Simpson in public Court?
Colonel PE RCEV A L Yes, often; and will again.
Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. S 0111 E RS, after a few general observations, sat down
thanking the House for the attention with which it had listened
to him. _ _ _

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, DECEMBER 1, 1<437.

Mr. BRISCOE never had heard a charge brought forward
against any Government so feebly supported and so triumph-
antly answered as the present.—( Hear.) He would refer to
the recommendation of the Court-martial which had tried Mr.
Blake, and would ask whether the Government, after 23 yerera
of unexampled good conduct on the part of Mr. Blake, would
not be fully justified in tempering justice with mercy; and al-
though they would not, perhaps, be acting wisely in reinstat-
ing him in the same office, yet he (Mr. Briscoe) hoped that,
in consideration of his valuable public services and strict im-
partiality of conduct, some other situation would be found for
him.—( Cheers. )
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought that Mr. Blake, and not the
gallant Member for Sligo, was the aggrieved party.
Colonel PE RC E VAL rose to reply : he felt he was in the
position
of a person on his trial. He had been accused on all
sides. There was one question to which he had an affirmative
reply to give. He had often shaken hands with James Simp-
son—(a laugh and cries of ",oh, oh I") He had been accused
of shaking hands with him in the felon's dock. He had no re-
collection of this, but it was very likely he had done so.—(Re-
newed laughter.) The dock formed part of the Court of Re.
gistration, where the scene took place, and there were a great
number of persons in it at the time, and for all he recollected he
might have been in it himself.—( Laughter.) As to the case of
pistols, all that he had to say was, he did give Simpson :a case of
pistols. At the time his life was threatened he being a valuator ;
and he (Colonel Perceval) was obliged to call an assistant bar-
rister to protect him to his lodgings, and in doing so he felt that
he had only done his duty.—( Hear, hear.) As to the daggers,
he had never given one in his life to anybody, and
he believed there was not a dagger on the face of the earth
with the name of Alexander Perceval on it. Another Hon.
Member had accused him of having struck a man at the elec-
tion for either the Sligo borough or for the county. On
the honour of a gentleman he did not strike a man at either
election.—( Cheers.) He saved his head from a blow aimed
at it by raising up his umbrella. The man in question, it
was true, was struck, but not by him ; and if necessary, he
could bring many of the highest repute. in the county to
bear him out. Indeed he was not conscious of having given
so,
tlitieum, muovteior,n, he
ee
a man a blow in the whole course of his life. with regard
t
mustwas hwaivlleingsutmouweitxhplruanwatiuitu.. Before doing
The Right
Hon. dbntleman the Attorney-General (for Ireland) bad ac-
cused him of having addressed very grosa language to Mr.
Blake; and the Noble Lord, following up tfie attack, had
charged him with applying to him the terms coward and liar.
Such words never escaped from him ; and if the Noble Lord
desired it he should have an affidavit to prove it. The Hon.
and Gallant Member concluded by repeating his willingness
to withdraw his motion, and moved for leave accordingly.—
( Loud cries of " Divide, divide! withdraw I" &c., which con-
tinued some moments.)