The Sun.
London, England, 1839-01-10 00:00:00

S NOW INCORPORATED

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY
MEETING-(YESTERDAY).

(Mr. BARRAGE'S speech, continued froth our paper of
yesterday.)—As to the consumption of coke, necessarily,
made in taking a given weight at high velocities, he aced
scarcely .make a comment—the question was so completely
set at rest by the subsequent experiment detailed in the
Report of the Directors. In practice the fact had been
established that such a high rate could be accomplished as
Mr. Wood had thought unprofitable ; they had experienced
such a result, and he was satisfied to leave the matter in
the hands of the Directors, contenting himself with no 'n-
Coning one circumstance, which showed how desirable it
was to make an analysis of the source of expense of con-
veying the passengers. He had started on a railroad with
a new engine, and, going out they had scarcely attained an
average speed of twenty miles an hour, and never exceeded
a rate-of thirty-one miles, while at the end of the trip he
left for a short time, and when the same engine came back
it accomplished a mean rate of forty miles an hour, and on
one portion of the line had proceeded beyond the rate of
forty-one miles and a fraction. As he knew that on going
out they had proceeded at the greatest possible rate
of speed, he was surprised at the change ; and having.
asked how it was accomplished, he was told by
the engineer, " Why;, I considered that the draught
of the chimney impeded the motion, and that a dif-
ferent form for the exit of the steam was desirable ; so
when you were away, I got a.hammer and knocked off a
small piece of iron, and you see the result ;" so that by a
very slight alteration of the engine there was the great gain
of from thirty to forty miles an hour in the speed.—(6'hee:'s.)
That engine was their own engine, and that engineer was
their own engineer—(Hear,hear)—and they saw with how
trifling an alteration, and under what circumstances, they
had obtained a large increased per eentsge of speed.—
(Cheers.) He had always foreseen that it would be ex-
tremely difficult to use any instrument to ascertain
lations, and whether they could rely upon any .oscillating
instruments. He had contrived an apparatus which hail
very little friction, and indeed less than the apparatus it-
self. He had used this instrument himself. He had ex-
pected the results to be large ; but as to agreeing in num-
ber and magnitude with those previously ascertained, tloi
greatly exceeded them, and were, in fact, beyond all. mar,-
nitude ; and having travelled with this instrument fur
more, than 120 miles, he had come to the conviction that
they must throw overboard all that this instrument told
them, and he, for one had no faith in oscillating instru-
ments ; they might- or might not be correct.—(Cheers )
His respect for the knowledge of their engineer had in-
creased as his opportunities for examining the work on the.
railway had become more frequent. Even if they did not
agree with Mr. Brunel as to the past, he should say that if
they looked at the question in a mere worldly point of
view, and wished to improve their property, they ought, in
stead of disturbing the attention of those who had the
borious office of conducting their great undertaking by any
further discussions, to give them every aid in their power—
(Cheers)—which would inevitably lead to the benefit of the
Proprietors at large. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by
expres,ing a hope that, loolthig forward as they did to ob-
taining the highest velocities that could be fairly antici-
pated, they would not press the Directors, upon any grounds
of economy, to pause- in their pursuit. It was not good
economy to check necessary expenditure. Upon that point
the best plan was for the Proprietors to leave the Directors
fully to take their own measures.—(Cheers.)
A PAOPRIETOR expressed a hope that the Directors
would, right or wrong, make a stand, and that the meeting
would that day come to a definitive resolution; so that the
Proprietors might know the position in which they were
placed. lie thought it desirable that some of the Liver-
pool Proprietors should be associated with the Directors
forming the London Board, as well as with the Directors
at Bristol.
The CHAIRMAN did not like to suffer a matter of this
importance to pass without remark. He regretted that
any amendment should have been deemed necessary ; but
notwithstanding that circumstance he could not but con-
gratulate the meeting on the altered tone the present d s-
emission had taken. This justified them in looking forward
to their making some approach to unanimity. If the
system pursued by other railways—the Manchester and
Birmingham, for instance—had been laid as bare and
naked a-, that of the Great Western Railway Company
had been, it would have been impossible for it to have
escaped without datnage.—(Hear, hear.) Taking an uu-
prejudiced view of the Reports now before the-meeting, lit,
did not think an impartial person could say that any pretext
had been offered for altering their present system.
A PROPRIETOR thought that Mr. Hawkshaw had been
unfairly dealt with.
Mr. HAY WORTH, supposing that the discussion wes
almost at an end, wished to make a few explanations.
Although an engine might have attained a greater speed of
two or three miles aa hour, it proved nothing ; and ever, if
Mr. Brunel could with a hammer make a great improve-
ment, yet the, question was not whether they could accom-
plish the finest thing, but how they could do the best at
the cheapest rate. This was the really important principle,
and it. was one which ran through ail nature, and it was
here that Mr. Brunel failcd—he had given play to his in-
ventive powers without consulting economy. Now, if th's
law of nature existed at all, it must exist with greater
power on a wide gauge than with a narrower.—(Spoke,
spoke.) He felt the importance of the observations he
was making, and with these he would leave the matter
in the hands of the meeting, remarking only, in conclu-
sion, that Mr. Babbage had said that the resistance was
only proved by two experiments, which were not sufficient ;
but he held in his • hand a table of 36 experiments, by I.n
eminent engineer, which showed that there was a great
relative increase in the resistance on bodies moving at in-
creased velocities. The table was calculated up to a vele,
city of 80 miles an hour.

The CHAIRMAN remarked that Dr. Lardner would assure
them that the laws of gravity would become expended !mg
before that.

Mr. HAYWORTH—This was no answer to his state-
ment. The fact was undoubted that the resistance did in-
crease considerahly, and he believed that it was as the
squares of the velocities.

Mr. BABBAGE explained that the Great Western Rail-
way was less exposed to that class of accidents which he
believed to be the most dangerous, viz., running the engine
the rail, than others —(Cheers.) This was the class of
accidents to which he had referred.
Dr. CARPENTER said chat there was nothing which pre-
vented him from giving a single and independent vote, and
declaring his judgment after weighing all the facts. He
was bound to say that his confidence in the engineer ha :l
been increased at every step he had taken.—(Cheers.)
And when, in addition to that confidence, he found elo-
quence and science aiding the engineer, be did feel strongly
that his respected friend Mr. Hayworth should withdraw
his amendment.—(Cheers.)
A general call took place for Mr. Brunel ; and the
CHAIRMAN having requested that gentleman to address the
meeting,
Mr. BRUNEL rose amidst much cheering. He had hoped,
he said, that from the course which the present diseussiol
had taken, it would not have been necessary for him tl

have addr&.sscd them, nor did he think that he should havo
obtruded upon their attention, if he had not been called
upon by the Chairman to do so. Mr. Hayworth and the
gentleman who had seconded the amendment havir', re-
peatedly alluded to one subject in their speeches, and hav-
hay-
ing in fact made it the ground-work of their views, and
Mr. Hayworth having maintained that the subject had not
been referred to before, he (Mr. Brunel) felt that he ought
to offer a few words in explanation. He could hardly,
however, allude to the subject seriously, considering the
manner in which it had been handled and bandied about,
not wonder that others had not spoken
suips toann et%
because it was not their object to treat
though in itsclf it was one that de trued to be treated
with becoming attention—be alluded to atmospheric re-
of evrything ; but as it had been urged as an argu-
e subject,Hedid
cote he felt it to be his duty, considering the situa
tion in which he was placed, to treat it as such. It had
been taken up in the Report, and argued by a gentleman
of
great eminence (Mr. Wood), for whom individually he felt
great respect, and many persons on reading it would sup.
pose that he attached great importance to it, but really this
topic of atmospheric resistance had been so bandied about
that it had at last become a bugbear, and at the risk of be-
ing thought to treat the subject too lightly, he must state
that, considering the state to which the question had been
brought, it was nothing less than humbug.—(Cheers and
laughter.) This amount of resistance was as • well known
sixty or seventy years ago AS it was now. What was it ?
It was well ascertained that a certain square surface going
through the air at different velocities would meet with dif-
ferent degrees of resistance, but who would send a flat
surface through the air if he wanted it to go fast? Thcs 3
experiments, however, which had been referred to, had been
made with a fiat body. The fact was, he had repeatedly
said that the resistance was perfectly known ; that there
was nothing new in these experiments, nor anything in
them that gave results different from those known before.
If so, how could an increased speed be obtained ?

Not by sending a flat surface through the air,
but in the construction of the engines and of
the carriages. That had always been foreseen, before this
railway was made or any attempt made to attain higher
speed. The manufacturers were directed to make round
extremities to the engines, and not to expose a flat surface
to the air.—(Hear, hear.) And when they got free from
other obstacles, these machines wonld be used. He could
not ascribe any particular merit to himself for these direc-
tions ; any fool would have done it if he wanted to go fist.
(Laughter.) What then was the use of inquiring into
these experiments of Dr. Lardner—he begged pardon, of
Mr. Wood—as whether they were correct or not, when
the fact was that their engines did now actually go forty
miles an hour ?--(He.r, hear.) Mr. Hayworth had for-
merly ridiculed him for the views he entertained, saying
that he prz:ferred men who took real practical common
sense views of things ; now, he might turn round upon
Mr. Haywo: th, and ask him where was the practical
common-sense view of this question, in asking hoW could
high speed be attained, seeing, as they all did, that it
had been attained ? There was no natural law against
travelling at the rate of forty or forty-five miles an hour.
Whatever prejudice might be entertained by a few gentle-
men on this point, he was ruro that ninety-five per cent. of
those present would admit it to be sufficient to have accom-
plished that rate of speed once to show that it could be
done without any extraordinary consumption of power, and
if they could
_do it once, though they might not do it again
for a week, it showed at least that the possibility existed.
Therefore, there really was no such cause of resistance in
operation as that to which Mr. Wood referred in his Repor,
and that was all he (Mr. Brunel) wished to prove. The
argument, had been unfairly conducted by the mover and
seconder of the amendment. In the first place, they con-
tended that high velocities were impracticable, and that it
was, therefore, no use to do anything with a view to attain
them, and then they went on to show that they were quite
attainable on other railways.--(Hear, and laughter.) But
it was said that the same improvements that had been made
in the North Star could ba made in the engines on other
otheriar,a
iiiliwi:y these
He was not disposed to deny, for the sake of
argument, that those improvements might be applied to
en-gli:nees improvements se
;hemerclYwvivshouedld to
en showable
themth a t into
aall t a ppir
va
rite of forty or forty-five miles speed. For the sake of
argument he had admitted that these alterations might be
applied to other railways, but at the same time he must
qualify that admission very considerably, inasmuch as there
was not sufficient room in the engines on the other lines
to admit of the alterations. The North Star, though
not one .of their large-wheeled engines,. was much
larger than any of the engines on other railways, the
former being a seven-foot wheel, whit: the others
were generally five or feet. To make one revolu-
tioa, therefore, of the North Star wheel, there was a
considerably less number of strokes of the piston. The defect
in the North Star arose from the circumstance that they
were, with a power of thirty miles, actually getting only
only twenty. That defect was remedied by proportioning
the blast-pipes to the size of the wheel. He believed that
the smaller engines were perfectly well proportioned now ;
they had been made by eminent men, and are therefore at
their best, whilst they were not ; but there is the same dif-
ference of speed, with the same consumption, as there was
in the difference in the diameters of the wheels of the two.
The wide guage had never been recommended by him
simply for the purpose of effecting high speed : it was for
the purpose of being able so to construct their carriages as
to diminish resistance. He must refer to.a statement made
by Mr. Hayworth, supported by a document in his posses-
sion—at the same time he (Mr. Brunel) thought that that
gentleman must be labouring under some mistake ; he could
not believe that Mr. Hayworth had any account of experi-
ments actually made by engines that had run up to eighty
miles an hour, thereby promising still more the accomplish-
ment of impossibilities.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HAYWORTH said that the statement he alluded to
was a calculation which had been made by an eminent en-
gineer as to the degrees of resistance in the atmosphere, and
that the cases were composed, among others, of four or
five, which he had no doubt were actual experiments.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. BRUNEL—Then he was about to attack, it seemed
results which were not, after all, a table of experiments ; i.
was a calculation only. The thirty-six cases were no
actual experiments.

Mr. HAYWORTH—They were a scale founded upon ex-
periments.
Mr. BRUNEL—And so were all scales, So were Dr.
Lardner's on the Great Western Railway : but those who
made them might ha mistaken.---(Laughter.) Another
point alluded to by Mr. Hayworth was the expense which
the width of the gunge had occasioned ; and he said that
it had taken 70,000/. out of his pocket., that being calcu-
lated on the assumption that 2,300,000/. had been or WdS
proposed to ha expended on the wide gunge and the gra-
dients: But of course Mr. Hayworth could not mean that,
beeauFe from the attention be had paid to the financial eir-
cumstinces of the Company, he must know that it was not
the fact. The increased width of the guage was certainly a
cause of a small increased expense, hut not a very large one,
on account of the guage. Mr. Ilawkshaw's report con-
stantly referred to the good gradients of the Great Western
Rail way. Theeffect of reading that report would be to induce
the opinion :hat the Company' had incurred some enormous
expense on account of those gradients. It was strange that
the report. d d not show what. had been the effect of the
increased gradients. It would have been desirable to know
what would have been the difference in the cost of the line
if constructed with the old gradients instead of the ne,..
Difficult it would have been if it had been attempted to be
shown by Mr. Hawkshaw. He (Mr. B.), however, b..•-
lieved that there would have been very little expense. Mr.
Crawshav might shake his head, but he (Mr. Brunel)
would ask him whether, when attending to this line he had
been able to point out any gradient where great expense
had been incurred ? In fact, no systematic expenditure had
been made from one end of the line to the other, for the
purpose of obtaining good sradients. Had Mr. Hawkshaw
or any other gentleman seen that there had been such an
expenditure, they would readily have pointed it out. The
total expenditure of the Comp-my had been largely in •
creased, but to attribute that increase to the width of the
guage or the gradients would be erroneous, and would
entirely mislead the public mind. With respect to the
saving of four hundred pounds a mile by the the adop-
tion of a change which Mr. Hayworth supposed to
have been occasioned by the agitation which had been in-
troduced, he (Mr. Brunel) should have been too happy to
have adopted any suggestion that would have accomplished
that saving. He was sorry, however, to say that it was not
quite the case. In the first place the saving could not be
made, because their original expenditure had not been so
much as 11,000/. per mile, and, . therefore, the excess be-
tween 7,000/. and 11,000/. could not have been saved.
In the next place, the saving would not arise simply from any
particular part of the plan. They would necessarily have
avoided some expenses in the execution of the plan. The
Directors were well aware, at the meeting at Bristol, that
there were seven or eight miles of Railway which could not
be made with piles, so that they were abandoned, not
merely from the effect of agitation or the suggestions r f
Mr. Hawkshaw or others. No other subject presented
itself to his mind on which he need to address them ; but
he had thought it right to point out to them, as practical
men, the facts, that they might not be led away by a spe-
cies of bugbear, shutting their eyes to the fact that, whe-
ther theoretically possible or not, it had been done.
Mr. HAYWORTH again rose to explain. He did net
mean to say that by obtaining better gradients they might
not go at a greater speed than 35 or 40 miles an hour, but
at an enormous expense. No one remark of Mr. Brunel
had caused him to change his opinion; on the contrary, Mr.
Brunel's speech had only confirmed it. Only a week ago
he had been told by an eminent engineer that the extra
cost would not amount to less than 20,000/. a mile.
Mr. SWIFT supported the amendment.
The CHAIRMAN then put the amendment, when about
fifteen hands were held up for it, upon which
Mr. HavwoaTri said that so important did he consider
this matter, that he was compelled to demand a poll.
Mr. RUSSELL GURNEY, before the poll was taken, wished
to ask Mr. Hayworth, whether it was true or not that
certain proprietors had split their shares ?
Mr. SWIFT answered that he had not.
The CHAIRMAN also denied that any thing had been
done by the Directors to prevent the poll being taken fairly.
Mr. HAYWORTH said that if the question could be le-
gally put, he would answer it ; but as he conceived that it
could not, he must refuse an answer.
Mr. GURNEY replied, that a refusal to answer did just
as well.
A long, and somewhat angry discussion then arose, in
which some explanations were given as to the circumstances
under which the Secretary, as an individual, had procured
proxies from shareholders.
Mr. BRUNEL disclaimed intending any affront to Mr.
Hayworth ;_ and
Several PROPRIETORS ineffectually urged that gentleman
to withdraw his amendment.
A ballot was taken, which lasted till six o'clock, when