The Sun.
London, England, 1839-05-01 00:00:00

Member had claimed great credit for the good temper
of his manner, but then there was much of asperity
and aspersion in the substance of the observati s
he had addressed to the liouse.—(llear, bet .)
These observations, he felt bound to say, must
have proceeded from the most extraordinary ignor nee
on the part of the lion. Member. The Hon. Member
had stated that Judges in these Courts would not are
to look large communities in the face—that they op-
pressed small ones, and that they did not measure out
equal justice to the rich and the poor. Now, he con-
tended, that the Hon. Member had no grounds what-
ever for such an assertion. He defied the Hon. Mem-
ber to produce any instance of such a course having
been adoptcd. If law was not to be deprived of all
authority, and if it was to be repealed by Mr. Thoro-
good, saying " I will not pay rates"—if that principle
was not to be adopted, he knew not what. course
Judges had to pursue but to administer the law as they
found it. He would not trouble the House further,
but he hoped the observations of the Hon. Member
would not be allowed to go forth without at least that
explanation.
Sir GEO. STRICKLAND hoped some legislation
on the subject of Church-rates would be shortly brought
forward in that House. He agreed with the Hon. Mem-
ber opposite, that so long as the law existed in its pre-
sent state the Judges had nothing to do but administer
it. He himself while acting as Magistrate had met with
many cases of extreme hardship owing to the forms of
the ecclesiastical tribunals, which were of a very expen-
sive nature.

his selectio i.—(Hear, hear.) The other Commissioner
Mr. Lewis, never having, through ill health, practised
at the bar, he should never have dreamt of putting
upon a Commission for framing a code of law. He
was glad that he could also state that his Noble
Friend, the late Secretary for the Colonial Depart-
ment had not been blameable, even for the error
of judgment, which at present was the only charge,
though a far heavier blame would be incurred if the
ordinance were now persisted in. It might, at
first sight, appear that his Noble Friend had de-
layed for two years acting upon the Report, but
the result was that the Commissioners requested to be
allowed to withdraw their original draft, and prepare
another, so that it was a second draft that now ap-
peared, and therefore the delay was apparent and
not real. It was not one of those oases in
which he thought great haste was to be attended to
more than good speed. He could willingly have for-
given a longer delay than had taken place ; and if he
had any fault to find it was, that instead of sending it
in the beginning of March, he did not delay it
a few days longer, in order to take the opinion
of English lawyer', and if that had been done, this ordi-
nance would not have gone out. There was another
reason why the Noble Lord was not to blame. His
Noble Friend sent it out to Counsel to be considered.
He gave a general approval of the principle, praised the
diligence and learning displayed by the Commissioners,
and called the serious and undivided ettention of the
Malta Counsel to their draft of the ordinance, because
it would require much consideration as to details,
and adapting it to the circumstances of the
matter. Now if that attention had been paid
to the details, they would have been found so in-
consistent with each other, that he would defy
Counsel to have passed them. He was not sure
they might not have passed easily enough a Council
of General Officers and civil servants, who bad no
lawyer amongst them, just as they pissed the Commis-
sioners.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But it so happened
that this draft of an ordinance was submitted to
be considerde to be weighed, to be examined
and sifted, and to be finally adopted altogether, or
rejected or altered, or adopted in part and in part re-
jected—all these matters of a legal description were
submitted to a lack-learned Counsel—a Counsel
without the shadow of a lawyer about him. A
change took place which deprived them of the in-
valuable assistance of the Chief Justice, and compelled
them to resort to the Attorney-General as their law-
adviser. Now what was the result of the labour of the
Commissi.iners ?—of the incompetent Commission ap-
pointed to examine the question. In the firstd place,
the ordinance had one quality of the law which was only
found in the statute law of one part of the civiliz-al
world—he meant conciseness, for which the statute law of
the ancient kingdom of Scotland was distinguished. He
admitted that since the union they had made up for that
conciseness. The ordinance consisted of five chapters
and four pages, but to these four pages and five chapters,
were appended 4'2 closely printed pages of notes and
comments-64 notes and 40 pages of comments to
explain four pages. In England they were not bound
to explain the law if it were not intelligible The
people had nothing to do but to obey it.
but an extraordinary division of labour had taken place
in the present legislative effort. The four pages of law
were sent eut to the people of Malta, and the
forty pager of explanation were reserved for their
Lordships' table. The law was sent out to those
who were only called on to obey, ;but those who
were only to comment upon that law in dis-
cussion had the explanation lad before them which
was to have rendered the law intelligible. Whether
the People of Malta suffered any loss from the want of
that explanation he knew not ; bat when he looked,•at
:the explanation he did not think the loss had been'-very
great. They might have had to complain that a law
had been sent oat which was not easily understood, but
Lite -doubted whether the explanation had not left them
in that state of mind which a person was said to be in
`when-he wris'a little confused by one statement and was
worse,cessfesed by the explanation.—(A laugh.) Tile
notes were certainly Written by a learned, acute and in-
genious mind, but. whether they tended very much to
the explanation- of the question was another matter—
that they -Were admirable for the closet and for` meta-
physical discussions on the law, there could be hardly
any doubt. " At'page 74 the Commissioners stated—
, "Perhaps the notes Will not be strictly authoritative,"
and in thenext pageethey state that it was obvious that
they were not to be .considered as authoritative in law ;
they also add, "that- if these notes are published by the
authority of the legislature of the island, they would
merely amount to an authentic interpretation of the law.
The notes had no authority whatever. But it might
he worth while just to see whether they afforded any
very great degree of knowledge of the subject on which
they treated. He wished to show their Lordships there
was a very great affectation of accuracy in this docu-
ment. He never saw so great a pretence to ultra-
'accuracy. 'They -were accurate about everything where
accuracy was of no value ; they were. accurate about
'.everytning' where accuracy was untenable, but -where
it-*dS Or 'ratite and tenable, they were totally regard-
less of it.ea-(Hear, hear.) For example they .said,
"any words printed in alphabetical' or other charac-
ters." Why- all characters of every language except
, the Chinese were alphabetical. Then again, "a printed
writing properly consists of the printing of the
words and not of the substances on which they
are printed since it is the substance of the words,"
and so on, that were important. "No attempt.
-- is made to . enumerate the species of sub-
HOUSE OF LORDS, Aritn 30. - starters nn 'which writings may he printed, or to de-
The Loan CrwieELLoa. took his seat on the Wool. t cir..gmus. 7-7 uc_i laughter.) He was very
fi " ( 1
sack at Five o'Clock. glad that' ttii.twas not put into the Maltese Gazette, for
Lord HATHERTON presented a petition from it Certaittly.would not have tended to have
Walsal, praying for the adoption of a uniform rate of 7ensurerl-respeetftir the lasv,makers. There was one
penny postage. thingabove-.al others, perhaps, he might say, important
Lord HADDINGTON presented a petition from to observe, and that vr..s this, that the party was re-
Inverkeithing, praying for Church Extension in Scotland. peatedly told if he did not pay " due attention," he
An officer attended from the Ecclesiastical Court of 'should be in a certain way punished. Then the ques-
York, and presented papers. .tion was what that due attention was to be considered ?
Au officer presented from the Court of Bankruptcy. " Negligence is the want of due attention—meaning by
certain papers. due attention, the attention due from a given pares, by
Lord ASHBURTON presented a petition from the virtue of a given law, or rule, or principle cf morals."—
merchants and others of Liverpool, praying for some (Immense laughter.) But he had to remind their Lord.
alteration in the Imprsonment for Debt Bill. ships of another thing. Talk of introducing the liberty
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the recom- of the press in Malta, without a jury why noboile ever
memlation of the petitioners certainly deserved the at- heard of the liberty- of the Press VI ithout a jury. In all
tention of the House. these cases what was glee attention was a fit question for
Lord ASHBURTON then presented petitions a jury, and yet that was to be left to a Maltese
in favour of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan of penny lawyer named by the Crown, and by the Crown to be
postage from Dundee, Kirkcudbright, Aberdeen, Piy- removed at pleasure. And yet it would be extremely
mouth, Ramsgate, Glamorgan, Hastings, Birmingham, difficult to find any thing,- like a. proper meaning of the
Devonport, Cupar, and several other places. words whizh were to be here left to thii one Maltese
Ile Marquis of HE AD FORD presented a petition lawyer, because the framers of this cl,curtient changed
from Dablin, praying for the introduction of a rai;ro id their words a most unaccountable manner. They
system into Ireland, as the only means of benefiting' used the word revile, traduce, awl ridicule. One was
that country. anxious to know how they defined revile, but when he
Earl FITZ WILLIAM presented petitions from came to look to the notes, he found contrary to all
Haddersfield, H ilitax, and several other places in principle, they threw aside that word and used the word
Yorkshire, praying for the adoption of a penny postage. vituperate; and there was a whole page upon the word
Ala.) a petition from Kirkaldy, against. further endow- vituperate. There was also another word here, which
merits to the Church of Scotland. Petitions from the he comp!ained of the introduction of, and tat was the
ikensed victuallers of Dewsbury, and other places, word censure. Iu this country they' knew what
against the Beer Bill. And petitions from Strotnness, defame meant ; they knew what ridicule meent;
Otley, Kirkby Lonsdale, and other places, r4ainst any they knew what invective meant ; and in their
alteraion in the Corn-laws. Lordslep's House they hail even a tolerable knowledge
Lord CAM PERDO W N presented a petition in fa- of scurrillity (Great laughter)—but there was a
your of the penny postage- word in this ordinance which he never saw in
The Marquis of BUTE presented petitions from any law of libel, and that was censure. The ordinance
Hamilton, and other places, iii favour of Church Exten- did not tell what that meant, but when lie came to
tion in Scotland, look at the notes he found that it was " a statement of
' The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a variety alleged misconduct, unaccompanied with express infe-
of petitions in favour of the adoption of a penny postage ; renees against the person, but leading others to draw
and also a petition from a place in the county of York inferences against him, will therefore amount to censure,
against any further grant to the College of Maynooth. as the term is understood in the ordinance." If he were
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition asked what the meaning of this was, after reading this
from the owners of orchard and garden grounds in the note, he certainly would be just as much in the da-k
as
county of Kent, complaining_ of the operation of the if he had never read it. Censure was the vaguest term.
Tithe Commutation Act, and praying for certain alter- that could be used. It was the smallest possible ob
ations to be made in it. -
jection that could be made to the most insignificant por
MALTA. tion of a man's character. He censured, a man by
Lord BROUGHAM, then said, that he rose to saying—" That man is a murderous and felonious' indie
bring before their Lordships a subject, in his opinion, viduel—his whole life has been a course of deliberate
of great importance, both as regarded the administration crime- ehe is corrupt in his public conduct, and unprin-
of the law in what might be called an nufport of the eipled in his private?' But then he also censured him
Empire—of; great consequence in the military and by saying—" He is not so good a man as it might be
commercial affairs of this country—and as regarded wished he was—there are many better men
the general principles of our jurisprudence. What- worse spoken of—he is far from being a per-
ever may have been :the law of Malta, .previous feet man—he has many little faults—and his
to the issuing the ordinance on which he was to conduct is not entirely free from blame."—.
remark, if that ordinance should he sanctioned, it would (Hear, hear.) Would any human being think of calling
appear that principles were sanctioned of which he en- that a libel ? But still that was to be a libel by this'
tirely disapproved—of which he knew their Lordships note, and to be subject to twelve months imprisonment,
must all disapprove—principles which he knew to be Then, again, the word " tends" was used, because it
repugnant in some respects to the law of England, and was a vague and an indefinable word. Whereas, in this
more especially to the law of libel. It was natural country, the honest, manly, intelligible, home-spoken
that it should be asked why he meddled in the affairs of tongue of English law said that which" defamed" a man
Malta, a subject to which he had never given the was a libel, not that which tended to defame him. That
smallest attention, and upon which his information must wherel a man's estimation was lowered, and his cha-
be as limited, almost, as that of any of thei`r Lordships. ratter tarnished in the eye of the public, was the mean.
But he must say, in defence of his so coming forward, ing of the word " defame." This word " tends," how_
that he did not come forward so much in respect ever, was used three or four times over. Again, " any
to Malta, as to the law of England generally, and the Publication of any writing, censuring or disrespectfully
law of libel in particular, as to which he had frequently, mentioning her Majesty," which meant the Sovereign,
during the last thirty years, made various represents- was punishable with twelve months' imprisonment.
tions, and he was sorry to find that legislation on this Now, he could figure to himself 10,000 expressions
subject, so far from advancing or even from remaining used without any evil intention, and without any
stationary, had been retrogading, retreating from the unkindness, which might be considered in a sense dis-
light, enveloping itself its darkness, following a worser respectful. " The poor blind King said of one Mo-
period of legislation, and in all respects lessening the narch ;" " the great fit King said of another Monarch."
security of the subject—diminishing the rights of free
.These were very improper expressions, and he did not
discussion, and fettering, instead of exalting, the Press. justify the use of them at any time ; but would any
He was greatly disappointed, and so would others be, man dream of sending a man to prison for 12 months
who bad gratulated themselves upon the occasion -for using them ? But he could figure another expres-
of the assurance given by the Government in 1836, sion—" that jolly old tar, William the Fourth"—au ex-
that the censorship of the Press should be abo- pression which lie himself had heard used fifty tines,
dished in Malta, to find that an ordinance had been solely from kindness to that most warm-hearted of all
issued with which it was utterly and absolutely Monarchs. The law held the King to be perfect—to
impossible that there should exist even a shadow of a be an object of veneration—and above all such fami-
shade of the liberty of the Press ; neverthe- liarity, and not to be stigmatised by any such breach
less he came forward on this occasion with of decorum as that. Still such an expression was not
great reluctance, because he had great respect to be justified ; but was it to be called a libel, and pet-
, for the learning and talents of those indi- nished with 12 months' imprisonment? But it was enough
viduals who had been placed upon the Maltese Commis- for him to say there was so means of gaining any
sion. Ho had himself shown his high opinion of one of information of what the disrespect here mentioned
those individuals (Mr. Austin), by placing hies on the meant. There was again another word, nernely, " mai-
Criminal Law Commission ; and, he was bound to versation," used here, of which be believed a definition
say that never had any man more fully justified was given, but it was a definition that involved the

Mr. NICHOLS thought it was too hard that the
odium of the case, if odium there were, should be cast
upon the clergyman. He regretted that some change
in the constitution of these Courts had not been made,
which would lessen the severity of their proceedings.
Although the motion of the Hon. Member was some-
what objectionable in form, he did not think it worth
while to offer any opposition to it.
Mr. HUME was glad to hear the Hon. and Learned
Member opposite express a wish that these Courts
should be abolished.—(Cries of " No, no.") He would
only refer to the treatment of the Church-rate victims
at Truro the other day, when a splendid procession, and
an elegant dinner awaited them on their liberation from
prison, to show them the impolicy of persevering in the
present system. It appeared to him a pitiful course of
proceeding to oppress the poor in order to support a
Church which ought to be rich enough to support itself.
It looked as if it was a beggarly Church. He thought
Mr. Thorogood deserved great credit for having suf-
fered so much for conscience sake. He held in his
hand a list of persecutions (for so he would call them),
which had taken place in Birm,ngham. Men for small
sums had goods to a large amount taken out of their
shops, and sold for a few shillings. Why, it was no-
thing less than robbery—(Oh, oh)—it was a robbery
against conscience.—( A laugh.) Hon. Members would
not deny that the pockets of the people were picked by
law every day. The system was one which no en-
lightened community ought to suffer to exist any longer.
It was inconsistent with Christian principle to punish
a man for believing according to the dictates of his con-
science. Why were not the Bishops called upon to
make up a purse for the purpose of promoting peace
and good will ? He thought it was a reproach to the
House and to the Government, who made no attempt
to put an end to such a state of things. Let the Noble
Lord bring in a Bill to abo!ish these unjust laws, and it
he failed, he at all events would get the credit of intend-
ing well, and let the odium fall upon those who opposed
him.

Mr. GOULBURIN said the Hon. Gentleman
who had introduced the motion had made many mis-
takes in the staternant he had laid before the House.
He assumed, that according to the canon which he had
luckily quoted, the clergyman of every parish was
guilty of an offence in not representing all immoral
persons in his parish, whereas, in looking at the canon,
every gentleman would find that the direction Was per-
fectly d:scretionary ; the Clergyman was not directed
to do it, but he might.
Mr. BRAMSTON defended the conduct of the
Magistrates. The prisoner was treated in all respects
according to the rules and regulations laid down by the
Visiting Justices.
Sir J. TYRRELL could not assent to all that had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, but he
cordially aisented to the renrirk, that that Hon. Mem-
ber did not like subscriptions.—( A ',ugh.) He was
sorry that he would not suinort the nim with his purse
as well as his tongue. A large stihs(!ription had been
made for the man, and he was neither poor nor ig-
norant.

Mr. BAINES shortly replied, and the motion was
agreed to.
LITHOGRAPHED PETITIONS.

Mr. G. W. WOOD, in pursuance -of directions
from the Committee on Petitions, brought the fact un-
der the notice of the House that many lithographed
petitions had been presented to the House.—(Hear.)
The Committee were of opinion that the same rule-
ought to apply to those petitions, as did to letter-press:
printed petitions, and they wanted to know the plea-
sure of the House upon the subject for their guidance.
He moved " that lithographed and engraved petitions
be considered printed petitions."
Mr. WARBURTON rose to oppose the motion.
Au. HON. MEMBER said the question was an impor-
tant one, and ought to be discussed in a fuller House.
i He moved that the House be counted.
Tne House was counted, and forty Members not
1 being present, the House adjourned.