The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-25 00:00:00

ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.

Sir E A RDL E Y \VILMOT gave notice that on Monday
next he would present a petition, which was yesterby
agreed to at a large public meeting in the metropolis, in
favour of the immediate abolition of Slavery.
COUNTY RATE.

Mr. E. BULLER presented o.P;tition from the C,tinty
of Stafford, praying that the Country.rate might be placed
under the controul of a Central Board.

IRISH CHARITABLE BEQUESTS.
Mr. BARRON gave notice that, in February, he would
move an Address to her Majesty for a commission to inquire
into the constitution and administration of the charitable
bequests and institutions in Ireland.
JOINT STOCK BANKS.
Mr. BLE WITT gave notice of a motion to repeal so
much of the Act, or Acts, as prevent, or are supposed to pre-
vent, spiritual persons from holding shares in Joint Stock
Banks.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed to call the attention of
the House to the report of the Solect Committee on the pri-
vate business of the House.
CHURCH EXTENSION.—(SCOTLAND.)
Mr. PRINGLE wished to put a question to the Noble
Lord if that was the proper time to do so. He begged to ask
him whether it was likely the Commission appointed to inquire
into Church Extension in Scotland was likely soon to termi-
nate its labours, and whether there was any probability of a
Report being made to that House ?
Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to the Hon. Member,
begged to state that a report had been already received from
that Commission respecting Glasgow, and would be laid im-
mediately on the table of the House. Another report was in a
great state of progress; he meant one with respect to Leith,
which had been received only within the last day or two.

HAND-LOOM WEAVERS.

Mr. I-I IND LE Y said that during the last Session an address
had been agreed to, to his Majesty, praying for the appointment
of a Cornin'ttee to inquire into the condition of the handloom
weavers. He begged to ask when that Commission would
commence its labours, and whether the Head-Commissioners
were to sit in London, and the Assistant-Commissioners
to go into the country? If the Noble Lord would give him an
answer it would satisfy many persons who were interested in
the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL believed there was some ques-
tion with respect to where the Commission would sit. The
Commission had not been appointed for travelling, but he be-
lieved it was their intention to appoint Assistant Commissioners
who would go through the country.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL would now proceed to call the
attention of the House to the report of the Committee with re-
spect to the business of the House. He would not enter into
any details, because he thought the subject required much
farther consideration ; and he should therefore beg leave to
propose the re-appointment of the Committee on that subject.
He wished to call the attention of the House to two points
with respect to the public business, on which their suggestions
might be of service. There was no Member of the House
but would agree that it was most desirable in promoting the
transactions of public busines that they should carry on that
business with order rather than by a desultory discussion,
when subjects were brought forward different from those of
which notice had been given, and thus confuse and disarrange
the business of the House. It was felt much during the last
Session; the days fixed for the transaction of the Orders of
the Day, were employed very often in the discussion of Notices,
and that on Notice Days, Orders of the Day were proceeded
with and that on many occasions, the House was counted
out.--( Hear.) The Noble Lord then referred to a statement
of the Committee, from which it appeared that a considerable
loss of time had taken place, in consequence of the manner in
which the business had been conducted. There were 85
days for the proper sitting of the House, Out of that 83 had
been appropriated to Orders of the Day, 12 had been directed
to Notices, and on several occasions the House was counted
out ; 14 out of the 33 Order Days bad been employed not
in the regular business of the House ; and of the 34 Notice
Days, six were occupied by adjourned debates; three were oc-
cupied by Government Bills, and upon noless than six occasions
the House had been counted out, and once not called. The
Noble Lord conceived there were two ways in which the
waste of the time of the House had occurred. One was that
upon Order Days Members who had some notice to bring for-
ward, to which they attached much interest, brought it forward
upon moving the Order of the Day, and by that means bringing
it forward at a time when the House had appointed subjects of
far greater interest for its consideration. Another evil was the
custom that had grown up, the Noble Lord believed, since the
present Speaker had become a Member of the House, namely,
that of Hon. Members giving notices at a long period. For
the convenience of the House, a practice grew up of giving
notice that a motion would be brought forward before the
notice of motion was given, that Members might be prepared
for the motion to be brought before the House ; and in conse-
quence of this practice of giving notice, Members had gone far
beyond the original intention of the Heuse, and instead of
giving notices for a short time before hand, the Notice-book was
tilled with Notices for three or four months together. The con-
sequence ~f this was, that Members who had motions of im-
portance to bring forward on questions, which at the beginning
of the Session did not form a subject of interest, found themselves
unable to procure a day on which to bring forward their mo-
tion, Thus the Orders of the Day were interfered with, and
immediately when the Order of the Day was read from the
Chair a motion wag proceeded with. The House had two in-
stances of this last year ; one was a motion with regard to the
affairs of Spain, brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Launceston (Sir H. Hardinge) ; the
other was a motion with respect to the Church of Scot-
land, and he thought it could not be doubted—indeed,
he for one was ready to admit—that both those subs.
jects were very fit subjects for the discussion of the House.
They were questions which at that time were considered to be
of importance, and which the Members bringing them forward
were not obliged to give a very long notice of beforehand ; but,
in consequence of the Notice Days being all filled up, they were
obliged to bring them forward on Order Day s, and this occupied
the days which were directed by the House to be employed
for other business. Now he intended to recommend to the
House the propositions made by the Committee for the re-
form of those evils which applied to Order Days, Mondays and
Fridays particularly; but even that would be of no utility
unless Members were really impressed with the very great
evil of the irregularity which had exited, and were deter-
mined to carry into effect the propositions which had
been recommended. He 'did now hope that Members,
particularly those who had lied experience of past Sessions,
would think it was most desirable for public business, most
desirable for their own convenience, and, ho must F. s y , it was
desirable likewise for the character of the House, that the mea-
sures to be brought forward should be discussed on the days
fixed for that purpose, and that there should be an opportunity
of bringing forward notices on questions on the regular Notice
Days. He had, therefore, pursuant to the recommendations
of the Committee, to propose—first, that the Orders of
the Day should take precedence of Notices on Mondays,
Wednesdays, and Fridays ; and next, that on any Or-
der of the Day being put from the Chair, no amendment
ball be moved, unless to move that another Order of the Day
fixed for the same day shall be read, or unless in cases of
Committees of Ways and Means and Committees of Supply.
Next, that on Notice Days it shall not be permitted to any
Member to fix a day beyond the term of fifteen days. He must
admit that these were experiments to make the business of the
House more regular, without altering much the ancient rules
and regulations by which it had been hitherto conducted.
In framing these rules he had kept as much as possible within '
the spirit of the old regulations. unless where it was found
that it could not be preserved consistent with the due carrying
on of the business of the House. These were his proposi.ions
and their value would be tested better by the experience of
the House than by any arguments of his.
Mr. II UME said, that during the last two or three sessions
there had been more confusion in the manner in which business
had been conducted, and less certainty as to what was to come
on than there used to be ; and one reason was, the want of
proper attention, on the part of those whose duty it had been
considered formerly to be (though undoubtedly it was the
duty of all to be present), to take care that the intention
of any individual to prevent the proceedings of the House
going on should not be successful.—( Hear, and cheers.) Often
had the House been counted out by those who ought, on the
contrary, to have kept a house.—( Hear, hear.) It
wes a mistake to suppose that by depriving a Member
of an opportunity of speaking on any particular question
time was saved—( Hear, hear, hear)—because if a Member
had anything ,really substantial to bring forward, he would
take the very means of doing so of which the Noble Lord
wished to deprive them. If the officers of the Government would
not take care to keep houses when business was to be done,
they had no right to prevent Members from having those means of
bringing their motions forward.—( hear, hear.) In the Noble
Lord's own report, on three days, Notices had been superseded
by Government Notices. Six times the House had Leen
counted out, and once a House had not been formed. Whose
fault was it that the House had been counted out, or had not
been formed ?—( Hear, hear.) It was the duty of the Go-
vernment, who conducted the business of this House, to lend
its assistance as much as it could (and it used to he understood
that they did so) to make a House.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Mr.
011 Bo
Lord,
Eb Nu t did e
thoughtn t mean
that to opposet tttwiaeltheiidoemetni
ototi
foorndtt
frequentlyhheo eerf
flume) thought a little attention ought to be paid to this
e
erhaps the
h
point.—(Cheers.)
theMNr.oSble
nsde ought
oendv, o
Order
.it t
the
eae)
uadtoimrfeocesattel
ldiinngtco a habit
inconvenience—he
ept
81
habittoeu
on the list, and giving it precedence of the first. —( Hear.)
Ile thought that Members had enough of anxiety in following
the Order's a; they stood on the list.—( Hear, hear.) The
Government ought et leeet to give notice of the Order in
which they meant to take the liste,-( hear.) He felt him-
self bound to corroborate all that had been said hy hie Hoe,
Friend the Member fur Kilkenny, as to the counting cut of
the House.—( Hear.) He bad often seen the business of the
House defeated, when there were forty or fifty Members will.
lug to go on with the business,—( Hear, hear.) He had seen

on such occasions, gentlemen stationed at the door to dissuade
others f, out in.--( ( tear, ileac.)
Sir R. PEEL said that the resolution contemplated two
°Vets—one was to restore the ancieoit practice of the House
by setting apart particular days for the consideration of Bills,
and of what was called the public business of the House. Tile
days formerly set :Tait for this were Monday, Wednesday, and
Friday. Now, he thought it was not unreasonable to preserve
two days, Monday and Friday, for what was propzrly called
public business, and as the votes of supply come on generally
on thosedays, if the whole of these days in the S..ssion were
left to public business, they would not be more than necessary.
Upon the secor.d point, the resolution which requires that
every individual giving notice should give it within fifteen
days, is one to which, as an individual, lie had no objection.
But in the Committee, he had felt that there would be
very great objections to it in practice.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He trusted, however, that experience would prove his predic-
tions to he without foundation. But it did appear to him,
that without some corresponding arrangement, they were se-
curing the failure of the whole plan by adopting that pi °posi-
tion. The fifteen days would in general embrace tour
Notice Days ; for instance, if a notice were given on
Friday, the Member giving that notice would have his
election of the Tuesdays and Fridays in the two following
weeks. Supposing, then, that there be a great ambition
for legislation, and a great desire amongst Hon. Members
for distinction, as the introducers of new laws—( Hear, and a
laugh)—and, indeed, it is on the supposition that such an
ambition prevails that the proposed regulations are founded—
the days on which they can bring forward their motions were
limited to four, from the day of their notice. Thus, it would
happen that a great number of notices would be given upon
one night. How was it to be decided to which the precedence
should be given? Every gentleman would consider his
own motion the most important, and how was the
question of importance to be settled ?—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Who was to determine what Gentleman was to have priority
of (riving notice? It would be invidious to put that exception-
able power in the hands of the Speaker alone. Suppose the
time for giving notice had arrived-20 Members stand up ;
if it depended upon the Speaker alone, the Honourable
Member who had the moat frivolous motions, if he had
his pocket well filled with them, might occupy the whale
of the four days. Ile thought they should establish some corre-
sponding regulations as to the order in which the notices
should be taken. There should also be some corresponding
regulations with respect to adjourned debates. Supposing a
gentleman had a notice for Thursday, he thought he had
secured that day, but there happened to be an adjourned
debate on the Wednesday. What was he to do ?.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) It no doubt was for the public convenience
that when a debate was once begun it should be terminated
without delay—(Hear)—the adjaurned debate was continued
on the Motion Day, so that in fact the disappointed Member
might well say that the House had made provision for break-
ing into the Motion Days, but none for remedying the evil.
It was a question with him whether or not it would be ad-
visable that there should be a ballot for precedency ; but he
feared that the proposition standing alone would give rise to
very considerable difficulty. Unless some additional and cor-
responding arrangement were made it would, he feared, be
impossible to insure equal justice to all parties.
Colonel DAVIES did not think the objections of the Right
Hon. Baronet of any great importance, and in his opinion
there would belittle difficulty in adopting the regulation pro-
posed by the Noble Lord.
Mr. DI VETT thought the fit proposed would occasion a
scramjile at the table among Members to put down their names.
One of the greatest inconveniences under the old system, and
which had frequently occasioned adjournment of the House,
arose from Hon. Members getting up and making motions
which were wholly irrelevant.
After a few words from Sir E. SUGDEN, which were not
heard in the Gallery,
Lord STANLEY observed that it had been said that the
reason the House had been counted out so often was attribut-
able to the Government, because they did not take care upon
all occasions to keep a House. It was not his duty to support
the acts of the Government, but he must say that he did not
think it was their duty tookeep a House for every purpose. It
was undoubtedly their duty to keep a House when
the Government business was before it—( Hear, hear)—
and he believed they had invariablf done so, for it
was to be observed that it was upon Notice Days chiefly that the
House had been counted out.—( Cheers.) Now, what was
the reason of that? Why, because gentlemen brought for-
ward notices in which no human being had any interest.—
( Cheers.) On one occasion when the House was counted
out, there were no less than two-and-twenty Notices on the
paper ; and upon another there were as many as thirty-
five Notices.—( Hear.) Now, upon either of those occasions
if the gentlemen who had given the notice had come
down, they would have kept a House—(Cheers)—but in point
of fact there was such a mass of rubbish placed on the Notice
Paper that no human being had patience to listen to it.—
( Cheers.) He thought it would be a great waste of the exer-
tions of the Government, if they exerted themselves upon every
occasion to keep a House. He concurred with the Right Hon.
Member near ( Sir E. Sugden), that the proposition of the
Noble Lord was but an:imperfect remedy for an acknowledged
evil.—(Cheers.) He concurred with him that in cases of
adjourned debate there was an easy remedy in the power of
the House by keeping the Order-book cleared for the next
fortnight; by the present system, however, the House would
have no such power. If the public business took precedence
of notices, then it would be easy for the House to say that
Members who had been compelled to give way should be
transferred to an open day.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He would recommend, however, his Noble Friend to alter the
words of the motion, so as to enable gentlemen to give notice
for the four or five notice days, instead of the first day for
setting down notices. Ile approved generally of the resolutions
of the Noble Lord, and would concur in their adoption, not
as a remedy but as a palliative.
Sir E. SUG DEN made some observations, which, from
the low tone in which he spoke, we could not distinctly catch.
We understood the Ilo.nourable Baronet to say that a great
point would be the certainty of the notices coming on.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL observed in reference to what
had fallen from the Noble Lord opposite, that these re-
solutions were intended as a palliative and not as a remedy,
and likewise with a view of calling the attention of the House
to the subject.
Mrs .HINDLEY said he wished to move an Amendment,
that (as we understood) the orders of the Government
should come on in the order they are put down.
The SPEAKER was understood to observe that that course
was taken during last session.
Mr. lIINDLEY said be wished to move an amendment to
this effect—That all Orders should come on in the order in
which they are put down.
Lord JO H N RUSSELL said that he could not consent,
because it might have the effect of deferring altogether
the Orders of the Government, and of stopping the business of
the country. The Mutiny Bill for instance might be delayed,
because there happened to be various subjects for discussion
on the Orders before it. If the object of the Hon. Member was
that the Government should fix the Orders of the Day in the
order in which they would cone on, to that he had no objection.
The resolutions that all Orders of the Day should take
precedence of motions on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays,
and also that on Orders no amendment should be moved but
for the reading of other Orders fixed for the same day, except
on Committees of Supply and of Ways and Means, were then
put and agreed to. On the resolution being put
that no Member should put a notice on the book more than
fifteen days before the day on which it was to come on,
Lord STANLEY made an observation which we did not
catch.
Lord J. RUSSELL said be thought it would be better to
have the resolutions carried now.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that ad the House was often counted
out on Motion days, he hoped the Government would take
some pains that Houses should be formed upon days upon
which Government business was not to come on.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he perfectly agreed in the im-
propriety of counting out a House ; but as to the Government
taking care that a House should be formed, that was more than
he could undertake ; and he must say that a notice could not
he of very great interest if it did not command a sufficient
attendance of Members.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Sir R. PEEL said, as we understood, that he thought it
would be mere advisable to postpone the passing of this reso-
lution till die commencement of next week, because in that case
the 15 days would comprise a larger number of Notice days
than if commenced to. day.—( Hear. )
Mr. W A KLE Y said, the resolution ought to be postponed.
Ile felt that the Government was taking from them a power
which they had exercised with some degree of effect in the
preceding Session. Suppose there were very gross abuses to
complain of in the army and navy, and that they desired to
bring them under the consideration of the House—they all
knew that the Mutiny Act must be passed by a certain day, and
if then notices of motionwei e pushed over,what would be the con-
sequence ? That the Mutiny Bill would be passed without these
abuses undergoing discussion. The remedy they had at pre-
sent was to bring the subject on as an amendment to the
Older of the Day for the first or second reading of the Bill.
The system proposed was entirely subversive of the principles
of the Constitution, by which they first discussed their griev-
ances, and then enacted the law. It was notorious that the
Government could make a House whenever it pleased ; and it
was equally notorious that Houses could not be made when there
was no public business nor money to be voted away. Ile hoped
the further consideration of these resolutions would be defer-
red till Tuesday or Thursday next, for a very few Members
understood what their purport was.
Mr. HINDLE Y thought the subject of very great import-
ance, and it ought to be adjourned. He thought the plan pro-
posed would most vitally interfere with the right of the people
to petition, and he would suggest to the Noble Lord the pro-
.
plLty of extending the period to thirty days, or postponing the
discussion to Tuesday next.
Sir R. PEEL would suggest that the notice should not
extend beyond four days, namely, the two Tuessios and two
Thursdays immediately preceding.
Mr, HUME suggested that Hon. Members should have till
Monday to consider the resolutions, which were of much im-
portance, and had been brought forward
uNtri
understanding
toa riLdtoihrne, surprise
atagreed
etni
lion. Members.
Mr.SHAitWwhooupldedhatluiaptonif the
notormtahnaYt
proposition, notice
of motion should be given until Monday,
Colonel SIBT 110 RP agreed with those with whom he
did not often agree, the Radicals---(a laugh)—that they were
taken by surprise upon a mug important motion respecting the
business of the House. Last Session he had come down day
after day in order to make a motion of much importance, but
on every occasion lie had been thrown over by what lie could
call nothing but a Ministerial trick. If the Hon. Member for
ish,stlery 00,404 pp:lpr to dividv. the House, he would
feel it his duty tome with him,
Lord J. RUSSELL could not possibly suppose that any '
one could have been taken by surprise on that occasion, be.

cause he had given notice of his intention on Mond iy last. Ha
had then given notice that he would being under the conside-
ration of the House the resolutions of the Committee of
last year, and no Member who paid any attention to
the subject could have been unaware of the matter.—
( Hear, hear.) lie had great objection to postpone the motion ;
and, of course, could not do so without a full arrangement
that no motion should be given before Monday. It ought to
be remembered that it was in the power of the House at all
times to bring on any discussion it pleased.
Mr. II UME—At least the terms of the motion ought to
be printed, and it. was not too much to expect that Members
should have two day s to consider the proposition.

Mr. C. W. W YNN made some observations which could
not be heard in the gallery.
Mr. HUME said, that as there were a number of new
Members in the House who knew nothing of the resolu-
tions before the Chair, he thought that the consideration of
the subject should be adjourned—( Cries of " Hear, hear")—
in order to give them an opportunity of understanding their
details. Ha would, therefore, move that the debate be ad-
journed to Tuesday next.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared :
For the adjournment 66
For Lord John Russell's motion 354
Majority for Lord John Russell's motion 288
On our return to the Gallery the SPEAKER was read-
ing the original resolution.
MIME put a question to Lord John Russell, but nei-
ther the question or reply could be heard in the Gallery.
Mr. HIN'D I, EY, who was heard with difficulty on
account of the noise in the House, was understood
to say, that he felt so much the importance of
the Order that he would intrude himself upon the
attention of the House. If the Orders should not be found
to answer, the greatest inconvenience to individual Members and
the country would follow.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Members
would be placed in an awkward situation if they were obliged
to say to their constituents that they could not do the business
which was required of them, because the forms and rules of the
House interfered, and they were restricted to give notice
of fifteen days. If thirty days were given, he would
certainly not offer any further opposition.—( Hear, bear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the resolution was very ab-
suidly worded. It was that no Notices should be given, ex-
cept those already given.
The SPEAKER having'read the resolution—
. . .

Mr. HINDLE Y moved- an amendment—That the time be
thirty days, instead of fifteen days.
The resolution was then put and carried.
Sir E. WILMOT said if there was any difficulty as to no-
tices already given, he should be happy to withdraw two no-
tices, which he had given for February next.