The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-25 00:00:00

SECOND READINGS.

The following bills were read a second time without dis-
cussion :—Pauper Lunatics Asylum Bill—Consolidated
Fund (Appropriation) Bill—lndemnity Bill—Land Tait
Commissioners Names Bill—and Promissory Notes Bill.
he Commons' amendments to the Naval Medical Sup-
plemental Fund were considered and agreed to.

TELEGRAPHS BILL.

On. the Commons' amendments to this bill being con-

sidered,

Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY stated that, as one of
e amendments which the Commons had made gave power
-to telegraph companies to carry telegraphic wires over the
houses and gardens of ale inhabitants of towns, provided only
the street authorities gave the permission to carry them,
he thought the amendments ought to be printed, in order
that they might be considered tomorrow.

The suggestion was agreed to.
COM nITTEES.

The following bills passed through committee :—Poisoned
Grain, &c.—Expiring Laws Continuance—Removal of
Prisoners (Scotland)—Charitable Uses—and Companies
Clauses,

THIRD READINGS.
Th 9 following bills were read a third time and passed :
Trustees (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill—Navy Prize
Agents' Bill—Nuisances Removal Act (1855) Amendment
Bill--Union Relief Aid Acts Continuance Bill—Turnpike

Trus'A Arrangements Bill—Railway Clauses Bill—Water-
/works Clauses Bill—Turnpike Acts Continuance Bill—
and Petty Sessions Bill.
EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY then rose for the pur-
pose of bringing under their attention the first report of
the Children's Employment Commission. The noble lord
dwelt upon the sufferings inflicted on young children em-
ployed in the making of lucifer matches, percussion caps,
pottery, pillow lace, &0., and concluded by drawing a
horrible picture of the tortures inflicted on climbing boys,
who were still employed to clean chimneys, notwithstand-
ing the act of Parliament to the contrary. He insisted
that it was the du'y of a civilised and Christian Legisla-
ture to rescue these children from the moral and physical
degradation entailed by their employments by enforcing
acts of Parliament against those who violated them, and by
protecting the health of the children by improved ventila-,
tion, earlier hours, and less continuous work.
The subject then dropped.
POLAND.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE rose to move for any
reports that might have been received from our diplomatic
or consular agents on the continent, of atrocities coramitted
or threatened by Russians or Poles since Ist M'Ay ; and to
inquire whether her Majesty's Government have reason to
hope that the civil war now raging in P eland will be hence-
forth conducted according to the alleges of civilised war-
fare. Whether Poland was to 1,-Je, or could be, restored to
a peaceful condition under tb..-3 dominion of Russia, or attain
her independence, he left, to his noble friend. He did not
wish to involve her 111:.ajesty's Government in any declara-
tions. He merely wished to have the atrocities and cruel-
ties of the civil -war put a stop to. He might be told that
those cruelti',a and atrocities were not confined to one side.
That was -.Try possible. But what he wanted was official
informs;don with regard to them. Having interfered in the
mattrir at all we were bound to go on and see the difficulty
dealt with in an effective manner. The position in which
we at present stood was almost unprecedented. The French
people were, perhaps, rather more deeply involved than we
~were, but both countries were so far involved that they
could not draw back. The Governments of the two coun-
tries had never before taken so active a part in concert in

the affairs of another great Power. Any one who would
have predicted a year age that the Governments of France
and England, with Austria, would have acted such a part
in concert, would have had his political sagacity ridiculed.
He would not have been deemed very wise or well in-
formed. The ground upon which the Government had
rested their interference was in order to put a stop -to the
effusion of blood and to those atrocities which shocked
all Europe. But what had been the effect of
their communication, if they had had any effect at all ?
Day after day they read that greater cruelties, or, as the
Russians called them, "more energetic measures," were
adopted. Not only had the representations of England
not been attended to, but they were not treated in the
manner which we had a right to expect. Since the re-
monstrances of England had been first forwarded to St.

:Petersburg, General Mouravieff had been sent into the dis-
turbed districts, and that decree had been published by him
which sentenced ladies wearing mourning to be treated in
the same manner as common women of the town. He wished
for official information as to whether those atrocities against
which we had protested had been checked, or whether they
-had been officially contradicted. Ho did not think they
could be contradicted, because names of persons and places
and dates were given with such accuracy of detail that it
was not likely they would be given unless the facts were as
stated. They heard of Polish peasants being marched at
the head of bodies of Russian troops to cover their advance
against the Polish insurgents. They heard of bishops and
.archbishops exiled or imprisoned, and a priest, who had per-
formed his sacred duties to his God and his fellow-country-
men by attending to minister to the dying, was at first con-
demned to death, and afterwards, by way of an act of
mercy, his sentence was commuted to 12 years' imprison-
ment. With regard to the despatch of Prince Gortschakoff,
it was not very encouraging to observe the sneers which he
directed against his noble friend, The noble earl might pro-
bably take no notice of these sneers, but it was intolerable,
and it was what neither France nor England could en-
dure, when they found that, in addition to the manner in
which their remonstrances were treated, more energetic
measures were demanded to put down the insurrection.
They might say that they were resolved not to go to war,
:but they were bound solemnly, before God and man, to put
a stop to those atrocities. He did not understand his noble
friend (Earl Russell) to say that on no account would he
allow himself to be drawn into war. What he understood
him to say was merely that, in their interference, they had
no desire to injure Russia, for the disturbed state of Poland
-was most prejudicial and dangerous to the Russian empire.
As England and France had begun, they had a right to say
that at least the war must be carried on according to the
usages of civilization, or else they must take part in it.
They must put a stop to such unchristian and barbarous
practises.
Earl RUSSELL said that his noble friend asked him for
official papers relating to what is at present going on in
Poland. In reply, he had to state that he found it was very
disadvantageous to our diplomatic agents abroad to make
public their communications to her Majesty's Government.
0i course it was essential that her Majesty's
Government
'should have the most authentic information, but their diplo-
matic agents told them that it was very difficult to obtain
any, reli_able and useful information if it were to be laid
before Parliament The statements regarding the act to
which his noble friend had alluded were, of course, very
liable to be questioned. What Lord Napier had said
when appud
afford was to was, that all the information he could
derived Consul
from the Russian Government.
Her Majesty's
collUtat but thou
at Warsaw gave them other ac-
ounts were of course denied, as he
said, from report!,
and quarters. 'Which came to,hina from various parties
only, therefore, would the Govern-
rasdation if that which they at pre-
Rise public, but Parliament itself
semmneignthtrtoebcbeteaivinedmliesedi!ne
nobles friend had spoken of the
conduct of General mour
with regard to the Polish
women. As to the decree issuedieff
by the general, it might be
taken to be perfectly
and a
authentic,
it hadtic.lhad been long published
throughout Europe,
been officially con-
tradicted it might be taken as anth..u°t -When Lord Napier'
had asked Prince Gortschakoff whPautthaied actally .
taken place
with regard to it, Prince Gortschakolt
ladies were arrested for being found dressed admitted that when
they had been fined. But he.said that tieewhelis of the fines
il mourning
amounted only to £llO or £120; that they had
and that the insurrectionary badge had ceased been paid
bited. He yid not think their lordships would feel
to
be
el
satisfied
if that were all the information the Government
in answer to the motion of his noble friend. With could give!
e t ta
the general question, his noble friend said that they ought
not to have begun or taken any steps unless they wereupri4
pared to obtain what they asked. His opinion on that sube:
jest differed from that of his noble friend. He thought it
might be often well to make representations to other Go-
vernments, without being prepared to present them with
the alternative of war. He should notice what was a very
great misrepresentation of what he had said in the house on
a former occasion. It appeared that Mr. Horsman had
somehow made a statement, which was really so important
and so evidently in contradiction to what he (Earl Russell)
really had said, that he should call their lordships' atten-
tion to it. He found it stated that the statements which
ho (Earl Russell) was supposed to have made was, that
however much the honour and interest of England f might
demand it, however much the safety of Europe might re-
quire it, England could on no account draw the sword for
Poland. That was manifestly so absurd that it was obvi-
ously impossible he could have made such a statement. The
argument which he did use was this —that where the honour
and independence of England were in question, there could
be no calculation of consequences, but they must defend
their honour at whatever cost. But he also said that when
the question was one of general humanity, and one affect-
ing the balance of power, and the bearing of certain
treaties, it then became the Government, before taking any
course or coming to any conclusion, and it became Parlia-
ment, before taking any decision, to consider and see clearly
what the object was which they had in view, and the proba-

bility of whether they had the means of effecting that object.
There was no question either with regard to the honour, or
the independence, or the safety of the country t was a
question for national consideration whether the - w ere likely
to obtain the object they had in view, and espe ly whether

that object was a definite one. There we wever, ano-
ther statement made in the same speech cry different
character. Ho meant that which attribute to hint a state-
ment, that if Poland obtained her independence, it would be
not only without the goodwill, but contrary to the judgment,
the wish, and the desire of England. Something like that
construction was put upon his speech by a noble earl oppo-
site. He might have expressed himself somewhat obscurely.
Probably what he said might have borne that interpretatioei,
but it certainly was not what he meant to have conveyed.
He had ventured to express some time aive -
regard to the independence of Potrid his opinion with
independence would one dad • Or other ,and he hoped that that
be testored. But what
he was arguing was, that an independent Poland which would
be established loy forefeet Powers,whether it was by France,
or Austria, or England, might become an element of dis-
order And danger in Europe. It appeared to him that that
was not only a fair argument, but it was just what would
happen.
,It Poland were able to establish her own indepen-
dence, it would be an element of order and peace in Europe,
But if foreign Powers were to establish what was called an
independent kingdom of Poland, which could not exist of
itself, it it were exposed to continentalconflicts and agitation,
to maintain its independence or extend its territory—and it
France and Englandwere to be continuallyealtedupon to sup-
port that kingdonewhich they had thus artificially created,he
believed that such a kingdom would be a source not of order
but of disorder in Europe. That was his argument—a very
plain one—and he did not think it was one from which men
in general would dissent. With regard to what was going,
on at the present moment in Europe, her Majesty's Govern-
ment had received a very important communication from
Russia, which had been laid before the house. All he had
to say upon that communication was that the only practical
part of it was a recommendation on the part of Russia that
Austria should combine and act in concert with Prussia and
Russia; that they should hold a conference between the
three ; and that they should settle the details of what should
be done with regard to the six points ; and that when
they had come to an end of their labours, and agreed to cer-
tain details and m asures. England and France were to have
the benefit of being informed of the result. That was the
only practical proposal. He was glad to say that no sooner
was that proposal made to Austria, than the Austrian Go-
vernment at once telegraphed to St. Petersburg declining
the proposition. (Hear, hear.) He had had placed in his
hands by the Austrian Ambassador a vet y able and straight-
forward despatch in which Austria entirely refused to be a
party to such a conference. He could only say that, so far
as the communications had as yet gone, France and Austria
were entirely agreed with England as to the views which
they took of the subject. But he certainly would not be
justified in producing any papers such as were asked for by
his noble friend, or in entering any further into the subject.
Lord STRA.TFORD DE REDCLIFFE did not under-
stand his noble friend (Earl Russell) to say that on no
aoor;ant would England go to war. As to the course
Which Austria had pursued, he was sure the house must
view it with the greatest satisfaction. Austria was no
longer the oppressor of Italy and the great bar to pro-
gress and enlightenment. England could look to her as
an efficient co-operator in her efforts to promote liberal
ideas, and she had fairly entered on the path of prospe-
rity and progress. He could not quite agree with his
noble friend near him (the Marquis of Clanricarde). This
question was one of a nature more extensive than that of
mere humanity alone. A great nation of several millions of
men were forced to rise against the power which oppressed
them, even although that power was so great as that of the
Russian empire. And when the severity which Russia had
heretofore exercised was considered, they had a strong as-
surance that the character of the repression which that em-
pire would apply to Poland would assume the form of exter-
mination. Cruelty and violence must mark every movement
under the circumstances and conditions of the war. The
war was carried on contrary to every principle of humanity
and it was most likely to endanger the peace of Europe.
The Russian despatch laid upon the table byhis noble friend
was little calculated tq convey an assurance of a hopeful
character. The spirit in which it was composed was mani-
fest in the language used. It was a matter much to be re-
gretted that a paper of so muchimportance, proceeding from
a Power of such high standing in Europe, should be marked
by the use of sarcastic language. We surely had a right to
expect in the answer to our despatch not only a civil reply,
but one marked by some regard for humanity. Diplomacy
on the present occasion had assumed the appearance of a
mere form. The existence of that plague sore in Europe
could not be allowed. It could not exist without constant
danger to the peace of Europe and to all its commercial in-
terests. If the policy of a great country like this was to be
determined by the fear of war, Great Britain had better
throw up the commission of its greatness, and sink back
into the second place, which would best become it. She
could not hold a position of this kind without serious re-
sponsibilities ; and, if she shrank from undertaking these,
she would set a. vicious example to the other nations of
the world, and lay the basis for disturbances in Europe,
She must advance ; and there were measures which she
might adopt that would not justify Russia to go to
war with her, and were consistent with the law of nations
which a sense of duty would impose on her. He must ad-
mit that a policy of that kind could not. be pursued
without exposing Great Britain to the hazard of war— (hear,
hear, from the Opposition)---but when a duty was imposed
on her she ought net to shrink from it, especially if the
future tranquillity of Europe was mixed up therewith. But
he did not apprehend war; Russia was not the Russia of
ten yea'rs ago. She felt the reaction of that- course of policy'
which she pursued so long ; the losses in war and the effect
on her national prosperity of those causes which other
countries felt in consequence of her intrigues; and while
Great Britain ought not to take advantage of the weakness
of a friendly Power to press her views to extremity, it would
be for the interest of Europe that she should not be too deli-
cate in the discharge of her duties.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he could not find
fault with her Majesty's Government. He had said in the
early part of the session that it was their duty to place them-
selves at the head of public opinion in Europe, and he was
now glad to testify that they had tried to do so. He felt
that the answer of Prince Gortschakoff would put an end
to all attempts to continue diplomacy, and to go further in
that course would be an evil. It was said that there was
no use in this interchange of diplomatic notes; he felt there
was this great advantage, that in the results they knew the
exact position in which they were. It remained for her
Majesty's Government, this act being over, plainly to con-
sider what they would do. He did not think that it would
be expedient for him to enter on that; it was a subject
which required the utmost consideration, and he felt that
he could not assist them if he endeavoured to show them
what their duty was on one side or the other. He did not
vote for any letters from Warsaw or any other part of
Poland to substantiate the statement of the atrocities which
the Pules were called on to suffer; the proclamations of
General Mouravieff were in themselves an atrocity ;
the state of things—a general confiscation of property,
and the want of appreciation of public feeling—was in
itself an atrocity—(cheers)—as yet unknown in Europe.
He felt convinced more and more every day that, despite
the prudence of the Cabinet, desirous though they might be
to prevent the advance of war into Europe, their attempt
would be in vain if the atrocities continued. The feeling of
the peoples of Europe, in that event, would overcome the
prudence of their Governments. (Cheers.) He trusted
the Russian Government would feel this. She had had the
same advantage in governing Poland that Austria had in
Gallicia and Prussia in Posen ; in those they saw great pro-
sperity for the last 33 years, whereas the kingdom of Poland
had been in a state of determined insurrection. (Hear, hear.)
The cause was bad government—(cheers)—and bad govern-
ment only ; and consequent on this, that brutal contempt
for the feelings of those who were governed, against which
human nature revolted. Their lordships desired the con-
tinuance of the state of things which was established by the
Treaty of Vienna. It was not drawn np without delibera-
tion ; and the countries had become accustomed to it. If it
were materially altered, the effect must be to break up the,
peace of Europe ; but Russia rendered it impossible to carry'
it out by the course on which she entered. Had Russia de-
rived any advantage from possessing Poland ? (Hear, hear.)
Was there any prestige from governing Poland as she did ?
Prestige was derived from success in war, and other opera-
tions, but in Poland she had proved a failure. (Hear, hear.)
He (Lord Ellenborough) wished that the Emperor, speak-
ing through his ministers, and attributing his troubles to
the revolutionary feeling in France and other countries,
would consider that he was the first revolutionist in Eu-
rope, in placing himself at the head of the serfs against
their late masters. Such a step was a popular insurrection
against property, and the Emperor was at the head of it.
He ventured to predict that the Emperor and his family
would suffer if he adopted such a line. But if the
Emperor looked through the history of nations, and
especially of the nations of the East, with which he was
himmediately connected, it would be impossible for
estim not to see that justice and generosity were more
eacerityioTtiourth_e government of nations than the greatest
calm, it was
suretil": b severity might create an apparent
There had been gat:: ue
things more clan e
treatment of women:l=
e followed by a reaction and state of
than that which preceded the calm.
mentioned, and especially their
who lived in cle it was impossible that any one
his enemy,
Tanhde xernpueean
hiontraged women made mankind
80,i:01111ml:1e could have sanctioned.
And
yet
it
was
elf to all the consequences.
lmPossible not to believe that the
atrocities(Cheers to women were without the orders of Mouravieff,
and he was the favourite agent ofha nthde Russian Govern.
thencreakce thef her
'lrd difficultiea by
Majesty's
ewmouatldternohlt
mGeonvte.rnmHeentle;fththe
offering any advice, and trusted they wo
consider the next step ; but if that step most gravely
rnacy, it would fail, as it did the first. (Cheers.)
one of diploe
The Earl of MALMESBURY said heneverere.)
felt so much apprehension as to the state of iuraino since 1853,
did at the present time. The safe course fer the PELaysruh6
molt to pursue was one of non-intervention, the policy
which they adopted when they entered on office. The Go-
vernmenty could show their displeasure in this case as they
did in that of Naples, by ordering their ambassador to with-
draw from St. Petersburg; and in taking this stop they
would not be giving cause of war. The noble lord concluded