The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-16 00:00:00

st subsist between his Yon and hit
po ed to be read had reference to P;
and to avowed partnerships in such
Member of that House who in banki:
ship with a solicitor ; and would it be sa. ern. e-
tleman should be affected by the Resolution, . heel[ they
in banking affairs solicited Bills in that House? !le felt
obliged for the attention with which he was heard. He dis-
claimed asking a favour from the House; all lie wished was
that its opinion might be. clearly and fairly expressed, and
whatever might be the decision he would willingly bow to it.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL felt bound to offer big
opinion to the House at once, and it did appear to him that
the Hon. Member was taking unnecessary pains to vindicate
himself-( Opposition cheers)-because it was stated that
"". the Hon. Member had no concern directly er indirectly with
able. The Committee on the Bill would investigate all alle- the business, and it seemed to him quite clear that he could
gations connected with it. not be in the remotest degree implicated-( Loud cries of
Mr. DUNCOMBE merely desired to meet the wishes of Hear, hear, bear)--they were bound to give credit to the
all parties. He would withdraw his motion, ready to stand by statement of any Hon. Member, much less the Hon. Member
his original motion, that it be an instruction to the Committee ' who had just left the House, who, he must say, during
to investigate the charges brought by Mr. Poulter respecting the long period he (the Attorney-General) had known him,
fictitious signatures to the subscription list of the Deptford and maintained that character, that there was no Hon. Member
Dover Railway, whose word could be more implicitly relied on, or who had a
Mr. WARBURTON agreed with the Speaker that there stricter or more delicate sense of honour.-( Hear, hear.).
were objections to the original motion. With regard to this Sir F. POLLOCK entirely concurred in what had fallen
new motion he must observe that the Gentlemen on from his Hon. and Learned Friend opposite. No Memb rof
the Committee had enlisted to serve only for a limited that House either by himself or his partner ought to participate
time.-( A laugh.) He was willing to serve himself, but he in the profits of a Parliamentary agency. There never sat in
was not sure that the other Gentlemen would be willing to that House an Hon. Member more entitled to a higher stare
serve on this new inquiry.--( Hear, hear, hear.) If the of confidence than the Hon. Member for Pewee:, and ie the
Honourable Gentleman would allow the petition to be referred House was satisfied that what that Hon. Member had stated was
to a new Committee, he was willing to act as Chairman, and correct, it was clear that this case did not conic within theepiritor
he would endeavour to prevail on the other Gentlemen of the the object of the Resolution. Having expressed his concur-
Committee, or upon a sufficient number, to serve also.- rence in what lied been stated by his Hon. and Learned Friend
(Hear, hear.) He could not, however, undertake to do this opposite, and there being no motion before the House, be
until the Kent, Deptford, and Dover Railway Committee had hoped the House wou'd now proceed to the other Orders of
made their report. the Day.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought it would be better to with- Mr. ROEBUCK said that this was one of the farce.; which
draw the motion for the matter going before a- Private Com- they wt re occasionally in the habit of seeing performed is t sat
noittee. House. It was impossible to come to any conclusion aeon
Mr. GROTE said, that if Private Committees were what this that would be beneficial to the public. Constituents !lad
they ought to be, they would be the proper place to deter- it in their power to elect such Members as would he likelo to
mine such questions as the present. As it was, however, it serve them in Parliament faithfully ; but to tell him ( Mr. IL )1 hat
seemed to him that the Committee of which the Hon. Member the Hon. Member opposite could not feel any solid:LH(' al out
for Bridport was Chairman, would be the proper place to enter the interest of his eon, was just one of those extravaf ant
into these charges. As far as he could judge of the names suppositions that could not be tolerated any chute but in the
of subscribers to the undertaking, he should say that it was House of Commons. What he complained of was, that the
bona fith2 honourable and just. It was plain, however, if the House formed Resolutions with the idea of reaching twit ate
character of the Railway and of the Directors was to be main- interests, which it was impossible far them to do,
tained, it could only be done bye fair and proper investigation. and he . thought that the best proceeding they ciiald
Mr. DUNCOMBE thought the matter should be referred adopt would be, to erase the resolution front their basks
to theDeptford Railway Committee. altogether, and let all who could have a majority of their
Mr. WARBURTON trusted, that if this investigation constituents have a scat in that House.-( Hear, hear.)
were to take place, the same course would be pursued Mr. TOOKE said that he would not occupy the toterr eon
as in other Railways-namely, that some person should be I 1 II
oetae ..ouse more than a few minutes ; there was no one x who
instructed to bring forward and examine the witnesses, in acquiesced more readily in the satisfaction which the expla na-
order that that duty should not be thrown upon the Chairman. don of the lion. Gentleman had given; but he feared the in lu-
The motion was then agreed to. once which his respectability would have it, contrive...l'n
GRANTOWN PIER BILL. the spirit of the Resolution, and he thought that some
Sir G. CLERK presented a petition from the merchants words should be added which would render it more
and manufacturers of Paisley and Glasgow in favour of the simple, and make it impossible that influencarespectirtg prieate
Grantown Pier Bill. Bills could be used.--( Hear.) He had been in the same ,ore-
Mr. TOOKE presented a petition from King's-Norton, dicament as the lion. Gentleman had been when he first • vas
against the Birmingham and Gloucester Railway. elected a Member of the House; and he thought that she
Mr. DUG DA LE brought in the London and Birmingham spirit of the Resolution should prevent any interfere nee •
Railway Amendment Bill, which was real a first time. whatever with the private business which might be he-
CHURCH RATES, fore it e and he therefore dissolved a connection with
Lord GEO. LENNOX presented a petition in favour of business although it had been lucrative, and although it
the abolition of Church-rates. had been suggested to him that his connection with it mi gilt
Mr. G. BERKELEY,presented a petition from Glouces- still be continued, the parties having different offices from I am,
ter, with a similar prayer. he, however, abandoned the idea; in fact, lie had never enter-
Petitions against the abolition of' Church-rates were pre- tained it, for he held it to be his duty not to engege
sented by the Marquis of Chandos, by Mr. A. Trevor, by in any business connected with that House rhich cold&
Mr. Barlow Hoy, by Sir J. Y. Buller, by Lord D. Stuart, by in any way be productive of pecuniary profit to lira-
Mr. Eaton, by Lord Henniker, by S:r R. Peel from Brighton, and he feared that if the doctrines of the Attortieyby Captain Alsager, by Colonel Lygon, and by other Hop. General and of the Honourable Member for Huntingdon
Members, whose names we could not learn. were received, that amongst some who would not be actuated
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from Edge- by the .motives of the Honourable Member for Penryn, it
ware in favour of the abolition of Church-rates. would be productive of considerable mischief.-( Hear, he are
Mr. WILK S presented a petition from Stratford-on- hear.) He would now state in what =liner the influence
Avon, signed by Churchmen and Dissenters, in favour of the cf a Member of Parliament was likely to prove so. Ho -east
abolition of Church-rates ; also a petition from Greenharner- A L
euring tue summer received letters from several gentlemen oho
ton, in Yorkshire, to the same effect. stated that they had projected a line of Railroad similar to that
Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition against the in question, but they considered that as the name of Mr.
abolition of Church-rates. He thought that, as a regulation Freshfield, jun., was attached to this, there was no chance for
had been adopted in the other House of Parliament that an them in any competition with him. For these reasons, there-
account of the number of petitions for and against the measure fore, and without any•retrospective idea-for he entettailiedl
should he taken, the same regulation ought to be adopted in this all the respect that was due to him for the lion. Gentlernan-e
House.
he had no personal or party motive-but he considered it his
The SPEAKER said that unless it was the pleasure of the duty, if it were the opinion of the House that the present Re-
House to order that to be done, the present rules of the House solution was not strung enough, to move that certain words,
must bd observed. should be added to
it, which would render it so.-( Her:, et
Lord Lincoln, Sir Charles Knightley, Mr. Goulburn, Mr.
Ile would suggest an addition to the Resolution, to the effect
Miles, Mr. Fleming, and Lord Ashley, presented petitions that no pecuniary consideration should be received by any
against the abolition of Church-rates. Hon. Member, or by any person standing in the relation of
Mr. C. Buller and Mr. Warburton presented petitions in partner to him.
favour of the total abolition of Church-rates. :ell. LAW thought the lion. Member was bound to give
An Hoe. MEMBER. presented a petition from 1,400 persons notice of his intention to move an addition to the Rosolutiont
employed as wolltmen in the county of Monmouth, praying
The only question now before the House was, e bother or not the
that the masters would be compelled to pay them in money Member particularly referred to had been guilty ofan infraction
instead of goods.
of the rules and order::: of the House ? He thought that arty one
PARLIAMENTARY AGENTS. ..
who had an opportunity of hearing the perfectly satisfacto
Lord GEORGE LENNOX, in pursuance of the instruc- explanation of that lion. Gentleman, must be of opinion that
tions he had received from the London and Brighton Railway his case did not fall within the terms or spirit of the Order. of
Committee, begged to move that the resolution of theliouse ~ w
toe [louse. •
of the 26th of February, 1830, be now read. He would state Mr.
D. W. HARVEY said from what he knew of die lion.
to the House what had takenoplece in the Committee, and
Member for Penryn, and what lie knew to be the (minions of
then leave it to them to decide in what manner they should
the profession to which lie belonged, he could opinions
treat it. A petition had been presented to the Committee,
most fully to the integrity of the statement which he had melee
and upon inquiring who appeared in behalf of it, the
and that Hon. Member had complied as far as he could wide.
Committee were informed that it was Mr. Fresh-
the Sip it and the metter of the resolution of that Home%
field, Jun. ; Mr. Freshfield beitig asked if lie was in
At the same time he must deny that this was a oues-
partnership with his father, a Member of that House, the
lion of character.-( Lou] cries of " Hear, hear, leear.")
answer was, " Yes, in general business, but not in
Ile woeld never allow this Resolution, or anything in eonneo-
this particular case." The Committee considered that that
lion with it, to come under the consideration of tho House,
was contrary to the law and usages of Parliament, and directed
without making known the circumstances under which that
that the matter should be brought under the consideration of
Resolution passed. Be was as satisfied as he was of.' his own
the House. r
being, that had he (Mr. Harvey) been connected in the way
The Resolution having been read by the Clerk,
the Hon. Member for Penryn had. been shown to he-die Mr. FRESIIFIELD .would commence by thanking the
nGtuciitzee...eo,f his partner appearing ou petitions or in the
Noble Lord for the courtesy with which he had brought for-
-7 notifying themselves to be the conductors of
ward the present matter. There was no mode in which the
Mlle hi Parliament-he questioned very much ehether th. 7
subject could be treated which would not necessarily call fur
would hove seen so many Learned Gentlemen risieg up er to
deep regret and pain-regret that apything relating to him-
after the other to defend his ( Mr. Harvey's) character.. -
self as an individual should be brought under the consideration
(Hear, hear.) But. they all knew that the Member 4et
of Parliament, and pain that there should have been anything
Penryn was solicitor to the Bank, and that his name, ands -dr
in his conduct, which in the mildest mode of treating, imputedi
noire of his partners, were attached to more causes then :toy
to him an obliquity of moral conception. It was suppose(
other firm in London.-(Great laughter.) So far fr en
that he had acted inconsistently with the Resolution, which a^- other
so many Learned Gentlemen rising to his repatntion
peered to Min to have no more to do with his actual relation
and conduct-so far them being defended by the Learned
towel ds the individual referred to, than it had to do with the
Cc:Wien= on both sides of the House-so far from bet I,
Speaker himself. There was no individual more distant or
vindicated es the Hon. Member fur Penryn had been-- he
more remote from any interest upon any question that could
feared that the Learned Gentlemen would have visited the ft ell-
come before that House as a subject of Parliamentary inquiry
effect of the Resolution upon him ( Mr. liarvey).---cticar .)
than himself. He understood the Resolution to he that no
Vtliatever might be the degree of penalty arising from. d to
Member by himself or his partner he engaged in the manage-
violation of the rule laid down, that penalty must 'De
..pai I.
client of any private Bill before that or the other House of
The adoption of that Resolution by the House, hate wesole td
Parliament. Could it be doubted that that Resolution was
intended to. rohibit an individual from actin
most heavily upon him ; for, after having followed. th at
own name or that of his partner in such mg
atters ?in his
branch of the profession which was chiefly th e sour ce
of his income, when it was known to his mese' ituents,
His object at the present moment teas not to argue the qties-
t
Lion beyond what was necessary to explain it, and make it they one and all seized a political opportunity-the .moment
that Resolution passed. The respect he entertained for the
understood. He would state facts, and leave the House to
[louse compelled bin to accede to the Resolution. I Viten : e
deal with those facts as they might think proder.-(Lonil
cheering.) He asserted that he had no interest complained to the individual who introduced the Re: -*laden,
direct or indirect in the management
of any privatee
of Parliament. - now a Noble Lord, of its bitter application upon }lime ell, that
business either in that or the other '
Nab' Lord stated that he congratulated him upon thi passing
(Cheers., lieus)
When he was first returned to Parlianient in s°
of the Resolution, in as much as he thought it wool .1 not re-
-1830, he took the earliest possible opportunity-he did not
quire a person with half the shrewdness which he gave hho
( Mr. 11 ) the credit for possessing, to avoid its atepticatioi e
wait even till his -return to London-but wrote to town to
He (Mr. II.), after the passing of the lee(eolutioa,
desire an arrangement immediately to be made, by which
did not allow a single Gazette to be published without
his son, and he alone, would derive any of the profits that Though
soaking the declaration that the partnership eeasting 'oetween
might be made by Parliamentary business. e
himself and others was at an end. He declared most eo-
he was in partnership with his aim in general business, froemd
lemnly that since that hour lie had never received any or. the
all participation in any. Parliamentary business he disclaim
emoluments arie.ing from the business of the firm of wld eh he
tiny interest, fle directed that the accounts should be sepa-
was once a partner, nor had he recommended tin m, as he
rately kept, and the profits taken by his son for his own use.
, might, to others.-( 1-I,:nr, hear.) If the declared
.on of
He had in no way interfered with him in any matter of Parlia-
the- Hon. Merger for Penryn was true, of which lie I lad Lot
mentary business from that moment. It must not be supposed
the slightest doubt, it cuss only a mode by which the o rders of
that the arrangement which had been made on that occasion
the ',louse were evaded. lie would never indirectly do that
was unknown to professional' men. He positively stated that
IrthiCh. by }:,:d not a right to do directly.-(lleas , hear.)
such arrangements- were of every day occurrence. In fact there
rlho lione 3.! ;able Member f for Penryn came into the
there were not transactions wit's which some of the partners
was scarcely any house of great professional business, in which
Icuse with a knowledge o the nesolutioro anti alt_
[;canoes to have employed his mind as tc. the mode
law business-another did not particin-ate in the profits of th
had no interest. Some had no interest hi the common-
Let cemid best evade or escape it, The Rwe elution WS
e.
nothing -snore nor less than a piece of artlul •aereeeetioe pee_
conveyancing department. In his own cake, he had ono tort
sonaily directed at him (Mr. Harvey), snit he trnste'd the I-lon.
who had no connection with the Bank of England, atod an-
Member for Truro would either snake it art. efficient rote, or
other son who was connected with lint-self in the affairs of
move for its repeal altogether.
that great Conipany. He stated those as facts easily ascer-
Mr. TOOKE, not wishing. to prolong: the period for ti 7e
tained. Similar arrag,emeuts to the one he had entered into
discussion of the important. matter thee 'stood for to-nigilie
had been made in the case of °a .er individuals. In the castse
would move Hiatt the fort
,ter coasideratiore of this subject: ha
for-instance, of Mr. Henry Smshth, the Solicitor of the East
adjourned to 'Thursday. the 6th April. .
India Company, from ties moose nt that he catne into ithr la-
ment he disconnected himself wit :h all Parliamentary business. Mr. P.. 0 U LBUlr el.wouldput it t tli .II M- ' fir
..1
The same thing occurred w ith respect to Sir James Trurr, tebether that was an advisable course to pursue ? If' the
Graham; in the case of M';•: Eras Folks; and Mr. H-4.....-4.,.,,,,,r woposite intended to propose any new Resolve& t
John, the Solicitor to the Be and of Woods and Feeests, tenon the enoject, it wouldi be proper the discussion sheen el
Without multiplying these insti meet, he would ask 'fled any tee adjeurned, in order that terile time might be /eon
inconvenience arisen from the Rt 'solution not twinefirst question the Hew se :' 1.1:.i
more stria_ for its consideration
gent than it was? From the m patent be enter ed'Parliatneot, to cnneider rum ;cide teas, had the Honourebl e mem. -
and had die-connected hirnself from ParPeamentary profit, . her for Penryn . 'violated any 'Order of that Hoe s ? Note
he had abstained from the mete st indirewt enquiry at new. it had been ituenetd ot all sides that the word '4 r the Hoe,
Lion to any Parliamentary bt ,siness in his own office. Illeinber himself was sufficient to excut ate te fully, and it
Ile asserted in the most solerm t wtoy, if his own word were appeared to him that the declaration tef Ptee ' I'm Member set
not sufficient, that no client ha.upon
I. had the slightest.advantage the question at rest.. The House uas cal' ea( on.
to conic to
from his being a meenher of Par liament.--that no client was SG :TIC declaration upon the subject,. • '
ever allowed to hold a converset .ion with, him en the subject Mr. HUMS wag alhoot
r!.,0
,aiddieeete the House, but ,
of any Parliamentary business in v Thiel' hi% eon nets interested- Mo. .O'CONNF.4I, la
d-hette e to know if there was any epees.
and that, although he had prose nted petitions for gentlemen, tion really before 11."4-(ur ,es of " Yes.")
who had stopped him in the loth y, who were perfect strangers Mr, lIUME vesureeee. lie considered the to ?etiort
to him, yet lie had never givere 'co a client the advantage he before th_e. Hunan .ze 'cc whether this debate should oe should
had rendered to a stranger. lis claimed most respectfully, bee, not
.be alot:ow-eel?
with the utmost confidence, that the tnease should give fu!, nail I.hise.',.-".„\ICER said the question was, what was 'proposed
implicit reliance to the set t melte; he was tiler' mahire• by t,,! e, ~on, Metnber for Truro.
Ile claimed it on this distinct w ereoee.,notice on Thursday, the 6th
to himself' , . Too KE then gave d that ,
lie
1.4 _
d els, read to, more sincerity than belonged t' L not arrogath„g
td Leers ; but, Demitise, if there ri. April, he should move the emetn, 1.11 Q
debate
were any individual in the Hot ree ' e
.v 0 of ante,
suspicion on the subject, or bad ea,
.the Resolution, and he moved the, this Chau: be ailjourned to
tell him that such was the ewate e -.t • 1 the slige '
, curiosite, to gratify, lie Mood
that day,
of the business in the *nouse Mr. JOHN SMITH would not but understated t
cst
hat Izt
of which he was a partner; an 1 such was the
..i°-ermation the adjournment of th:te debate a stigma would Le a
of the Clerks in that, house. a it the statement tee was then the character cf tho tionouraid M
e eeaber for Peeryn. Ms
basin's. ,e
making, and which leo- at ,
teat the
, D....
se p robably bo .a the. papers ho,
be-
to-morrow, could, - - eed the Ilouso
Order of tme ay
if ienteue, be contradictvl by twenty per- fore it, and therefore he moved teat .
sons in his own est-:olishmeat, at 'would pass immediately to the
.d by the 'cooks of the house, should be rend,
about which t
y. 1 ere ore. e asked-he -
lien was no inyeter Ti' f h- .t-d h. m,sTOCiKE then moved that the Resolution be ' wieen into
Pr°rekca nay Gentleman, who c mild ',me the slightest hesi- 1 ednelderatioa on the 6th April, and moved the 0 rder of Iles
(alien on the subject-to stove for a Committee to iiiv"" ' Day for restdedeg the adjourned debate on Chute:ll-rates.-
tigate. the matter, and he wnui eh stand or fall hy the truen Agreed to.
of tide statement he Was noe e making. - (Hear, hoar.) An How. Alr.mr;mt cemplairted of the irreor
?salad, mannerea,littlor
He asserted that ho hail enterer the necessary record, in this in which the pipers of the House were de avereu
books of the house, and it was es • - iterecl i.e. the knowledoct .of all , peiettrw
those who were ia the slight ,ei t ileared cannected with the Sir G. CLE R K made a similar: complaint- .
ad'airs of their at m. —( Hear.) it he had withdrawanitogether i CANAT eie.'
.
fr9llii the business= the ee )te •tt t geweeitten wicAtld % Mr, ROEBUCK said that lie nneun 1
cr. ni ma o .
* ditet ia been laet night