The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-19 00:00:00

THE SUN., LON DON, TUESDAY,-EtENING EDITION,-FEBRUARY 19, 1839

assured the labourers, then and nets Unhappily suffering
grievous privations—that tlseir object iti endeavouring to
effect the proposed alteration in the Corn-laws, was
to supply the working classes with cheaper bread, and
to enable them to consume a greater quantity of agri-
cultural produce, than they could now (Hear, hear.)
What however must they think, when they found of
those very Anti-corn-law advocates asserting at a
meeting lately held, as reported in a newspapar,
" without a repeal of the Corn-laws we never shall be
able to beat down wages sufficiently."—( Hear, hear.) It
was clear that the manufacturers of this country found it
every day more difficulty to compete with foreigners,—but
much of that evil wits attributable to the manufacturers
themselves, as he (Lord S.) would at another time show
from official documents. From the end of the year 1834 to
the mouth of August last—a period of three years and a
half—the machinery employed in the cotton trade alone had
been increased 53 per cent. Thus the means of production
being disproportionately multiplied beyond the consumption,
the manufacturers were not relatively in so good a situation
as they were before—( Hear.) It was to be apprehended that if
the prices of corn were reduced the wages of the operatives
would bo lowered to a greater degree than the prices of
articles; and as he had already intimated, the duties in
foreign markets would be raised much higher than they
were now, the inference was, that no party would derive
any benefit from the change. Though not possessing that
ability to follow a train of arguments which distinguished
the Noble and Learned Lord, he should briefly expose
some of his misstatements, especially those respecting the.
prices of corn at various times. While he (Earl S.)
was a member of the Central Agricultural Society, he re
membered that the average prices of wheat from the end
of 1835 to the beginning of 1836, was 365. a quarter.
When the Noble Lord talked of the rents having doubled,
lie ( Earl S.) would refer to the prices of corn during the
last century. He would find that in 1730 the average
price of wheat was ls. a quarter higher than in 1830.
( Hear, hear.) On reference to the official tables, they
would see that wheat was comparatively higher during the
reign of King William, of Charles the Second, and the
latter part of the time of James the First.--( Hear, hear. )
It was most material to consider that the Noble and
Learned Lord had overlooked w hat was of extreme and
vital importance, and ho appeared to rest the whole of his
argument on the relief the repeal of the Corn-laws would
give to the labouring classes if they reduced the wages
of the labouring classes and the price of corn in proportion.
What could they do? They did a positive evil. If the
labourer was a prudent and careful man, and had been
accustomed weekly to lay by a small sum, now, under the
most favourable circumstances, it would be impossible for
him to contribute anything. The Noble and Learned
Lord had nothing to rest his argument on, for if he reduced
the price of corn,he would drive out employment altogether,
particularly that of a very considerable number of agricul-
tural labourers. There was another subject on which he
rested those eight fundamental points he spoke of. His
Noble and Learned Friend had omitted altogether to speak
of the effects this measure will produce on the state of
Ireland. He may remain quiet and inoperative, except as
far as may be relevant for his argument, but in respect of
that measure, any hope of benefit for the manufacturers
would be revolution in that country, and would lead even-
tually to a repeal of the union. Before he sat down,
he would make one observation more—the just constitu-
tional authority of this House it was far from his wish to
invalidate, and on all occasions he was anxious to assert,
but he would not admit that the House of Commons as
now constituted had any right—he did not mean
of course a legal right—but it had no just and lawful
authority to interfere with those laws. That House called
itself the representative of the people—had it any lawful
authority to reduce the wages of labour throughout the
country. He could say it would be no benefit whatever in
that ex parte proceeding recommended by the Noble and
Learned Lord. It would be of no practical utility what-
ever to discuss the question at the bar of that House by
hearing evidence, unless they were convinced it would lead
to a satisfactory result, of which the Noble and Learned
Lord himself did not give them any hope, he intending
merely to engage them in an inquiry of which no man knew
the objects, but which we were told was intended for the
benefit of the people. Whenever we heap d any proposition
where there was considerable discrepancy of opinion we
should take our views generally. Such was the case with
regard to the Corn-laws, and we ought to take a general
view of the effects that law produced.
The Duke of RICHMOND was only anxious to say a
few words in reply to what the Noble and Learned Lord
urged, on the necessity of hearing evidence at the bar of
that House. If the question had been one which had never
before been discussed, and which had never been inquired
into, he would consent to hear evidence at the bar ; but by
agreeing to hear evidence we were holding out to the
country hopes, or telling them we were in doubt of the
course to be pursued. He would be no party to such a
proceeding—he would give it a direct -negative. His Noble
Friend had spoken most eloquently on the subject, and had
said some things which he (the Duke of Richmond) en-
tirely agreed with ; one of which was,
,that the interests
of the manufacturer and agriculturists were identical ; and
I agree with him when he tells us that the manufacturers
have improved. They have done so, and you have given
them the means. They have been in a state of peace and
of consequent improvement for a considerable period.
This is the reason they now manufacture more abroad.
But the Noble and Learned Lord bad said nothing
whatever of the Home Market. Were our manufacturers
prepared to sacrifice the Home Market ? He would not
dare to say so. He was prepared to reduce the price of
labour; and for that purpose was preparing to reduce the
price of corn.—( Hear.) He told them that it would be
better for the poor to get bread ss. the quarter cheaper
—( Hkar, hear)—but bread was not the only thing ;
they must get their clothes cheaper and their rents cheaper
and many other things cheaper ; he told them it would not
much cheapen the price of bread. Why that was the ar-
gument by which signatures had been obtained to the nume-
rous petitions presented to the House, and those signatures
would not have been obtained if the people had not been
told that they would get bread cheaper by the repeal of the
Corn-laws. His opinion was, if they repealed the Corn-laws
a great portion of the land this country would be thrown out
of cultivation. The agriculturists had to pay the malt-tax
and every other tax imposed upon the land ; they must
repeal more duties if they took off the pressure from the
nu tu
fmroarntfahcehrenra
;whicthhewyoulmduesnt a b lteake them o ffa
t thhoonssee tob u
com-
pete dens
with the foreign farmer. If there came a year of
dearth it would then be a famine indeed, for the 'farmers
would not be able to cultivate more than half their land,
for he did not suppose those free traders would compel the
farmer to sow his land with corn. He knew not where the
money came from, for the construction of those numerous
railroads throughout the country; nor the docks at Liver-
pool and other places, which were said now to be filled
with vessels—if the manufacturing interests were at so low
an ebb as some of those gentlemen would wish us to be •
Hove. He knew how unpopular it was to meet a
motion by a direct negative, but he knew he
should not do his duty to thousands in endeavouring to
prevent the land being thrown out of cultivation, if he
did not now move a direct negative to the motion of the
Noble and Learned Lord.

must be produced on the ono side and the other, we sh
be going into an inquiry which would be productive of no
good, and nlich would occasion a great weste of time'
without affording aly real natisfaetiOn to the country.l
trust, thefefore, that We shall not go into inquiry.
tritat it will not be thought that it is from arty ill-
feeling to the protection, or from any want of a
wish to consider all that is necessary as affecting
our fellew-subjects, that we refused to go into it
_( Hear, hear)—but that it is from a feeling that the
course recommended is mistakenly recommended, and that
the objects they have in view mey be better attained in
another manner. Upon those grounds, therefore, I shall
udquestionably resist the motion for hearing evidence at
the bar.—( Much cheering.) Upon the general question,
it is not my intention to go into any argument on the
present occasion. The Noble Lord has mentioned a great
many facts, but the whole of his speech consisted not so
much of the statement of the facts to be inquired into, as
it did in inferences from those facts and opinions to be
derived from them—opinions which we can here consider
and determine upon without any further evidencer Un-
doubtedly the Noble Lord urged a great deal of this very
clearly. I do not agree with many of the opinions he has
professed on this occasion. At the same time, a
great deal of what he said, no one can but
concur in. The Noble Lord adverted, among other
things to the tampering- with the currency, which he says
has been the cause of many evils to this country, and which
he says took place during the greet revolutionary war, in
which this country was engaged. in the course of the last
century. Unquestionably that tampering with, and depre-
ciating of, that currency was of great consequence. But
when that is talked of we must recollect that no country
furnishes any history of any example of going through
such changes without experiencing something of that
nature. The Noble Lord said the changes were made
%kith too much haste and too lunch violence, I remem-
ber the predictions very well. I was in a hum.
hie sphere then, but I thought it right then, and
still think it right, to have acceded to that. My
Lords, my experience at that time has made me a
little shy as to such experiments, and I know not the effect
of the measure which the Noble and Learned Lord pro-
poses—(Haar, hear)--and I shall be very cautious before
I take another such leap in the dark, utterly ignorant of
where I am going.—(Cneers.) My Lords, the Noble
and Learned Lord, in m dting some very wise and prudent
and judicious observations, in which I entirely concur,
and, by-the-bye, which the Noble and Learned Lord en-
tirely adhered to in the speech which he has delivered, and
which was not only very able and eloquent, but calm, tem-
perate, and considerate—( Hear, hear)—the observa-
tions to which I allude were on the impropriety of
drawing comparisons between one set of persons, one
class of the community and another, as tending to
produce alienation and discontent—( Hear, hear, hear)—
and the Noole and Learned Lord thought proper
to allude to a Noble Friend of mine, who holds opinions
different from those which he formerly entertained on this
subject, and has expressed an opinion as to the superiority
of the agriculturists of our country over the manufacturers.
My Lords, I think, considering the variety of opinions
which have been held on this question, and considering
that many of those who have best debated the subject,
have changed their judgment respecting it—it is no great
disgrace to my Noble Friend that he should have altered
his opinion upon it.—( Hear.) And as to his opinion re-
garding the superiority of the agriculturist population to
the manufacturing—in respectability, in sobriety, in tran-
quillity—why, the Noble and Learned Lord must well
know that such was the judgment of Adam Smith, an
opinion, by-the-bye, which has sorely gravelled and
puzzled his later commentator_—( Hear, hear, and laugh-
ter)—and my Noble Friend perhaps may be excused for
committing the same error, if error it be—in such
company.—(Cries of " Hear, bear.") My Lords, the
Noble and Learned Lord drew a most splendid
picture, with all that powerful eloquence which belongs to
him—of the burst of prosperity which in 1774 was expe-
rienced in this country, and which has since continued up
to the present time. But the Noble and Learned Lord
forgot that the Corn-laws %sere established in 1772
(Lord Brougham—No no; 1804)—I say the principle of
protection to the landowner was established in 1772,
though undoubtedly it was extended in 1804.—( Hear.)
I don't argue from that, as to the advantageousness of the
Corn-laws; but I do argue this, that they have not after
all been a positive bar to the growth and increase of the
prosperity of the country.—( Hear.) My Lords, the ques-
tions we have to decide are, to what extent and at what
prices corn can be grown in this and other countries ? And
these points can only be ascertained by experiment, by
trial.—(llear, hear ) Inquiry would leave us exactly
where we arc, involving as it would do investigations
into the facilities of communication and the means
of transit in distant countries. The evidence as to
which would necessarily bet most unsatisfactory.--( Hear,
hear.) As to the growth of manufactures on the Conti-
nent, there can be no doubt aboutthat ;—by reason of the
long peace,—increased exertions—and the industry, in-
genuity and skill which the Continental nations have al-
ways possessed in many manufactures, in a degree some-
times equal, if not superior to our own ; and whether this
is owing to the Corn-laws is matter for argument, and
reasoning on the facts already before us.--( Hear, hear.)
The Noble and Learned Lord himself has stated the
facts correctly enough, the imports and exports of • our
own country, as compared with foreign nations ; and he
drew his inferences ; and no doubt the corn and timber
'awe are obstacles in our negotiations with foreign nations
for reciprocity—( Hear, hear) ; but I believe that though
they furnish a good argument, they form no motive.—
( Hear, bear, hear.) I very much doubt whether it a our
Corn-laws that have raised up foreign manufactures
on the Continent.—( Hear, hear.) I am certain that
a repeal of the Corn-laws would not do away with them—
(hear, bear)--particularly if we throw it before them in
this way, with no stipulations.as to reciprocity, giving it
merely as a sacrifice to the passions of our own manufac-
turing population.—(Hear, hear.) tnrcis„ I did not
mean to have said so much upon the general' 'question, in-
tend ng to have confined tnyarlf to the point of hearing evi-
dance, which Ithink unnecevsary, prejudicial, and useless to
the objects of the petitioners themselves.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) My Lords, the Noble and Learned Lord
on a former occasion, uttered some severe strictures
and animadversions on what lie called "open questions."

ine, in that House. He would read what the historian
said on that suhiect, and their Lordships would see it was
mode bf which it wart impossible their Lordships
could adopt, more particularly on a subject of such impo,t-
ance, and in which the interests of the country were so
much involved. It was stated that, "on the 20th of
April, 1812, the House agreed, without a division,
to hear evidence in support of the petitions. The
inquiry on the order of the petitions was wholly
conducted by two Members, and each night presented
new operations and new defeats to the orders
in Council, and new advantages to the opposition. By
incidental dubatings on petitions presented, by discussions
arising on evidence tendered, by other mighty matters
broached occasionally in connection with the subject, the
Government at first conceiving there was a clamour raised
out of doors against their policy, and hoping this would of
itself subside, endeavour to gain time and put off the hear-
ing of the evidence ; but they kept steadily to their pur-
pose, and instead of calling in their witnesses at the
earliest possible hour, they at length prevailed so far as
to have it understood that the hearing should proceed
daily at half-past four o'clock, and to continue at least till
ten, by which means they generally kept on till
a much later hour, those who took a peculiar
interest in the subject having earlier left the House."
Such a course might be very proper in another place, and
probably very proper in order to repeal the Orders in
Council, but this was a solemn Act of Parliament.
It might be considered regular in another place, but it
could not be deemed a regular proceeding in that House,
where there was no precedent for such a proceeding. lie
could not agree with the Noble Viscount, that this pro-
ceeding was taken for the purpose of delay—on the con-
trary, he thought the intention was to accelerate the pro-
ceedings. At the same time he earnestly entreated their
Lordships not to lose sight of the question. He hoped
they would take into their serious consideration the whole
of the grounds stated by the Noble and Learned Lord, in
order that they might be enabled to decide upon it according
to their conscientious opinion, and consistent with the pub-
be interests, and at the very earliest period. He had al-
ways considered the question as the most important one
which could come under the notice of the House. The
object of the existing Corn-laws, which were passed in 1804,
as c ertainly to give protection to the agricultural interests
of the country. The agricultural interest of this country
had enjoyed that protection for'thirty-five years; that fact
alone was a sufficient reason for proceeding with some
caution in making any alteration in the laws.—( Cheers. )
It would be an interference with the greatest interest in the
country—with an interest which affected every
class of her Majesty's subjects. There would be one
very bad effect from an alteration from the present shifting
duties, as they were called, to a permanent one. A perma-
nent duty might involve the country in very great difficul-
culties, for it would ruin a great portion of an indus-
trious, and at the present time, a wealthy and happy class
of men. If it was possible that the House could make
such a mistake as to make such a change, it was impossi-
ble to say what revolution--what change they would make
in property. If the Noble and Learned Lord would look
back to what passed between 1814 and 1822, and between
1822 and 1828, when the present Bill was passed—he
would find that even a very small importation of grain had
at various times caused very extensive distress
amongst the agricultural interest of this country, and that
theie importations, sometimes occasioned by an unfortunate
rise in the prices, and at other times occasioned by the in-
terference of the Government. caused such distress amongst
the agricultural interest, that the Legislature was com-
pelled to adopt the principle of the measure, which was
the foundation of the Act which existed at the present
moment. He firmly believed that they could not change
the law- they could not change the principle, as they
would expose the agricultural interest of the country to
very great deterioration, and not without making a great
revolution in property.—( Cheers.) The law, as originally
established, was for the protection of agriculture, and until
it could do without that protection; it must be afforded.
The Noble and Learned Lord had taken great pains to
prove that the present law had not ensured a uniformity
of prices. He (the Duke of Wellington) did not know
how a uniformity of prices could be ensured in any
country, or in any commodity, the price of which must vary
according to the produce. In this country the pro-
duce surne,iinis varied to the amount of double.
There was no doubt that the agriculturist gaMed,
then, with low prices, because his produce was
greater. The fluctuation for a number of years had
been very trifling. The average in 1828 was 645. 6d. ;
1829, 675. ; 1830, 665. 10d. ; 1831, 725. ; 1832, 61s. 2d. ;
1833, 555. 53. ; 1834, 495. 63., and 1835, 425. 3d. The
average of those ten years was about the same as that
stated be the Noble and Learned Lord as existing from
1772 to 1800. The average was 565. 4d. which was ilot
a very high price. —( Hear, hear ) He claimed for the
law that it had brought the prices to as steady a point as
was possible. The Noble and Learned Lord said the
effect of the Bill had been to destroy the trade of the
country. He begged to inform their Lordships that in
the 20 years from 1815 to 1835, there was imported un-
der the different laws, 8,428,589 quarters of wheat from
foreign countries, making an average of 401,361 quarters
annually. The quantity imported in some years was great,
in
.1829 it was no less than 1,259,000 quarters;
1830, 1,493,000, and in 1831, 1,034,000 quarters.
He was therefore astonished that it should be stated that
this measure had been destructive of trade. Another re-
sult that appeared from the paper he had before him
was that between 1815 and 1835 no less than 6,585,242
quarters of wheat were imported fros-n Ireland. This,
therefore, showed that the measure had not only encou•
raged the trade in corn, but also the growth of that article
and the trade in it with Ireland. Besides the quantity of
wheat imported there was 3,934,695 hundred weight of fo-
reign flour, and 6,994,665 hundred weight of Irish produce
also imported, and it was therefore impossible for any mea-
sure to have encouraged the trade in corn more than the
existing laws had done. !laving said thus much he would
now proceed to make a few observations upon the complaints
made by the Noble and Learned Lord with respect to the
misfortune that betel a merchant whom it appeared bad
imported a large qeantity of wheat from the Mediterranean,
but who was not enabled to sell it,had itin bond in the country,
and the expense of keeping it there, together with the other
charges upon it, bad exceeded the value of the corn itself.
If lee understood the Noble and Learned Lord rightly,

I would advise them not to adopt that doctrine -too hastily he had stet, d that the corn was at that time, including
which coedemns all open questions because it condemns a insurance, freight, and other things, 425.
great deal of the past, and may, if you adopt it, render a great Lord BR OUG HA M.—Forty-seven shillings.
deal impracticable for the future. —( Laughter. ) All argu- The Duke of WELL I NGTO N— Well, he would
men eall eloquence and all sound seems to be on one side; but say 4es. ; but this merchant expected to get 725. for it
all reason, all practical sense, common utility—the general at least, because he bought it in at a time when the duty
mode of things working—are entirely on the other. The was Is. ; that was a pretty good speculation if it had an-
Noble Lord said much about the Government not making swered, but it did not succeed.—(Laughter.) The
up its mind--the public has a right to demand of you that prices fell in the country before he brought in his corn,
you should do it—or it is a matter to be expected, and it is and the duty therefore rose: if he had sold immediately
a mere excuse for the purpose of keeping the Government he might have had a profit.
together. Why the Noble Lord's experience might have Lord BROUG II AM.—The price fell before the wheat
told him that the keeping the Government together was a arrived, while it was at sea ; when the vessel came into
vet), sorry, and not a very easy task. (Great laughter.) port the price was 425.
Some years ago I should not have been surprised at my The Duke of WELLINGTON—Then the vessel
Noble and Learned Friend making such an observation; must have ben a long while on its passage.—( Laughter. )
but considering that he himself had been a Minister, I am There could be no doubt that the individual intended to
somewhat surprised at it.—( Renewed laughter.) And, make a very good thing of it ; but he was disappointed
my Lords, with respect to open stueetions, do Noble Lords (Laughter.) He (the Duke of Wellington) thought the
forget that took place in 1812,1820, and 1827, under the present subject ought to be taken into consideration upon
Government of Lord Liverpool, who conducted this country general grounds, with a view to the benefit of all classes in
through the great war in which we were engaged, and through the country, and not with a view to any particular interest.
some of the greatest difficulties which ever beset this country ( Hear.) He thought, however, that their Lordships
in the time of peace—do Noble Lords forget that that Go- should well consider the whole subject before they withdrew
vernment did make the measure which was the most fro- that encouragement which was afforded to agriculture by
quent in dispute, and which was of the most frequent the existing laws. Let their Lordships never forget that
occurrence, on open question ? Ido think it is a little un- during the last five and thirty years, during which agricul-
wise to pronounce all open questions as discreditable-- lure had had this encouragement, not only had they brought
always prejudicial—and always to be avoided. My Noble that great war to a conclusion, which the Noble Viscount had
and Learned Friend said that was a state of things which referred to, but they had found their way out of another mis-
he always contemplated with the utmost disgust. Now, fortune, the alteration of the currency.--( Hear.) Lct them
I almost doubt that.—( Laughter.) I remember when recollect, too, that they had paid off, for he called paying
I was engaged with the Noble and Learned Lord in dis the interest paying off, let them recollect that they had
cussing certain questions that were considered open ques- paid off a hundred millions of the National Debt—( Hear,
tions, aid I don't think he was so very much disgusted.— hear)--and they had also repealed an enormous amount
(Laughter.) No doubt, we were always pleased with of taxation.—( Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he trusted
those ei o were with us, and angry with those who were their Lordships would maturely consider the subject before
against us. Ido say that, considering the difficulties on they decided upon one that was of such vast importance to
this question—considering the difference of opinion upon it the nation at large.
and the inaneer in which it affects the various interests of Lord .BR.OUG HAM rose to reply. He thought
the community, it is one of those which, in my opinion, it necessary to correct one or two very great mistakes
may he as well left to the fair, impartial, and unbiassed. which had been fallen into by some of the Noble Lords
decision of Parliament, as any other that can be conceived. that had addressed their Lordships.--[Here consider-
._._( Hear, hear.) I have nothing further to say on the able confusion prevailed in consequence of Noble Lords
i
general question, but I trust your Lordships will think it leaving the House.]
is unnece.ssary to enter into the inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGI AM continued—This was not the pro-
The Duke of WELLINGTON commenced by saying per way to treat a subject of such vast importance as the
that he concurred in the exhortation of the Noble and present.—( Hear, hear.)
Learned Lord opposite in the commencement of this Lord W YNFORD made an observation which was in-
speech, that their Lordships would giVe their utmost atten- audible in the Gallery.
tion to the arguments urged on this question, and he trusted Lord BR 0 UGH A M—My Learned and Noble Friend
their Lordships would do everything in their power to come on the opposite side seems to have forgotten his old judi-
cial habits of hearing both sides and then the reply. Your
to such derision as would bo most consistent, not with the
which opposite to avoid
interests of one class or the interests of another, but with
) but you must and shall hear it, whether you like it or not.
Lordships seem as if you did not wish to hear the reply,
the interests of the public in general.—(Hear, hear, hear.
This is nothing to the House of Commons.
The. Noble and Learned Lord in the arguments which he
play, compared to the noise of' the House of Commons.
This is child's
had addressed to their Lordships
Viscountn th:s subject certainly
appeared to him as to the Nobl.
—(Laughter.) He was glad to hear the Noble
particularly that part of the subject related to the tech- Duke's statement as to the felicitous situation in which
the mode of inquir Lordshipsy y this country was placed after a war of unprecedented
which he had proposed to their for their adop. extent. The Noble Duke had talked about paying
tion. The made of inquiry proposed to their Lordships off a hundred millions of the debt. There could be no
was one he believed entirely without precedent. He did doubt that the taking off the interest relieved the burthene
Meal question before the House,namel
not believe there was an instance of a Committee of the of the people, but they could not take credit for paying off
whole House having been moved to to receive petitions, so large an amount. The Noble Duke had also talked
and to take them into consideration b y
the examination of about the reduction of taxation. It was true that a very
witnesses at their Lordships' bar—there was no single in- great amount of taxes had been taken off, and during the
stance of such a proceeding, and he was positively certain time that he was in power those with whom he was as-
this was a case of all others, in which_t_heir Lordships ought sociated, had taken off some millions in the income tax
not to eroceed in that mode -(Hear, hear.) There alone. The Noble Viscount at the head of Hor Majesty's
was, indeed a precedent for it in another House of Par- Government had stated that he (Lord Brougham) had a
respect of the in-
liament, but he thought he wouldadopt e able to show their bad case because he was so dull in his statements.
Lordships they ought not to
Noble that precedent, and It would have been very extraordinary with him
he entirely agreed with • .Duke on the cross (Lord Brougham) if he had been otherwise. The
hhaetdaorion:p the inqu i r y
that theted nbeyodtehehier Noble Viscount said he did not argue the cause with that
benches, in the grounds he had stated to thedirsuLcohrdpsohiinptss
hneguNiroyboleuagnhdt warmth with which he usually did any case that he took an
interest in. Now he must tell that Noble Viscount that
wordhad bteoenst.tao:recedent in another he was extremely mistaken if he thought there was any
want of argument on his part from a disinclination to enter
cittbLloieuefii.
be
yrerhne
dteehtia,brain:L.
ci utrtoleoraddi
s.
Lordship
: tttdaeb
dsaht
thgilbee)3enoeb,siejf, consent
:en)
tuctuhomtli
objects
touyol
dpri
neterho whichev
show
inquiry,.i
consented!bsuect
upon the subject. If his argument was dull it was from
the nature of the subject upon which he was arguing. It
was an exceedingly dull subject, and one that was ex-
eofNionbqleularnyd learned Lord, who
butLor
dhseh
idpisd. notN stateo
thoeiri oneee
tremely difficult, and required a great deal of state.
proposed. was the prop
upon this occasion.
place in respect to an inquiry upon petitions on a great anent and facts, which were of themselves dull in
public question, which petitions were taken into consider- their natnre. He saw that their Lordships
ation be a Committee in the other House of Parliament. were not over.willing to hear him, and thus he had rather
Their Lordships had beard that the result of those petitions an ungrateful task to perf,rm ; but that task, however un-
had been hold out to the public as an inducement to urge the grateful, lie was determined to accomplish. If ho had
aHdeolwitahs;nqoufitae
certain
ur take the lively views one Noble Lord had taken, not so
humorous, not so droll, but as comfortable to himself, as
had made the present motion, had no intention that a similar easy to himself, for nothing was easier in dealing with the
mode of proceeding should be adopted
.there, with a view subject than to pass it over on one side—and it was easy in
to produce those same ends, more particularly as he (the proportion as it would be difficult, and it was just pleasant
Duke of Wellington) had
got a note of a recent history in proportion as it was difficult, and it was just as natural
published of that transaction, which would show what was in proportion as we felt not very able to deal with it—
the mode of proceeding on that occasion, and what was (Loud laughter)—and these things altogether tended to
the object of it. He believed it would be found that it was eet the Noble Lord out of the difficulty, instead
thatmo dteh
the object in view, of those out of doors, who had insisted of trying to get over it. Now, as to what the
on having this mode of proceeding adopted on the present Noble Duke had addressed to himself as to the
occasion, and the Noble Viscount would see he was wrong in Corn duty. His Noble Friend opposite, and the
supposing that delay was the object of this mode of inquiry. Noble Viscount above all, had most egregiously misunder-
The N 1 1 V", •nt would see it was to accelerate the
• e • c.• 10.., LCOI. stood his (Lord Brougham's) statements, when they saw
inquiry ee much as possible, and to render the result cer- he did not apply himself to the matter which be was
1 tain, by clamour rather than by a fair inquiry and reason- j bringing before the House, namely, whether evidence

Viscount MELBOURNE—The Noble and Learned
Lord had stated at the conclusion of his speech that it was
his intention to submit a series of eight resolutions to the
House, upon which a Noble Friend ,pf his hereafter in
tended to bring forward a motion. This was a most con-
stitutional and a most Parliamentary mode of proceeding
—it was exactly the mode of proceeding that the Noble
and Learned Lord ought to adopt. My wonder is that the
Noble and aid Learned Lord has not adopted this mode
of proceeding in the first instance. I cannot help think.
ing, although the Noble and Learned Lord has delivered a
speech of great power and eloquence, that he has brought
forward this subject more in compliance with the wishes of
others than in accordance with the suggestions of his own
mind. The Noble and Learned Lord has made a powerful
appeal to your Lordships, at the same time I must say that,
in the course of his speech, and more particularly at its
commencement, he laboured a little.--( Hear, hear.) He
did not speak with that spirit which I have frequently
heard ihim address your Lorships, when he had his own
good sense as his advocate and assistant. The Noble
and Learned Lord laboured under the disadvantage of his
own accuracy, and his own certainty, and his own knowledge
of the subject being arrayed against him.—( Hear.) Because
the more clear the facts he stated, the more certain the
propositions he had laid down—the more obvious
his reasonings, and the more decided his facts, the less
ground is there for the inquiry he has proposed, and the
less necessity has he proved for proceeding in the course
which he has recommended.—( Hear, hear.) My Lord:,
I entirely agree with the Noble and Learned Lord, that I
am sure this House would not decide on a question of this
great importance—a question of such material and vital
interest to all classes in this country and this community—
a question in which such deep and general interest is felt,
and which so deeply and materially affects them, without full
consideration, without a full hearing of all parties on the
subject, and without a full consideration of all the argu-
ments which can be adduced in order to influence your
Lordships' determination.—( Cheers.) But then we arc
to hear them in the mariner which may be best for the
subject and for the petitioners themselves. Let us not
throw in the way of that great and important question
useless embarrassment and impediments by this inquiry at
your Lordships' Bar; for I declare, if it was wished in
any manner to defer or postpone the measure—if I wished
to cast delay upon and to avoid the question—if I wished
to perplex and puzzle it—if I wished to endeavour to em-
barrass it in an inextricable msze of conflicting facts and
opinions, I don't know a better way by which it could possibly
be done than having this enquiry at the bar of your Lord-
ships House.—( Hear, hear.) What is that which the No.
ble Lord has stated which we are to inquire into? What
is there in the way of fact that is not either perfectly ob-
vious, or that is not in itself so difficult that it it impossible
to be ascerrained ? Is it not evideslt that we would be
hereby involved in a mass of nquiry without end or deter-
mination? The Noble Lord says we must engege in the
inquiry, unless we are prepared to admit that all that has
been stated is either obviously true, or false, or perfectly
immaterial. Is it because nothing has been stated which
is immaterial—is it because nothing which has been
stated is obviously false, but that much has been stated
which is obviously true, and because a difference of opinion
exists unon this subject, that we are to go upon this in-
quiry 2—( Hear, hear.) The question of these laws is not
a new one—as the Noble Duke says, they have bean long
sufficiently investigated and inquired into—it is not a new
subject, but the whole question as to its operation, in-
fluence, and the conclusions to be drawn from its
effects, are known to your Lordships, and can be as
well decided upon by yourselves as by hearing all the
evidence that the Noble and Learned Lord proposes
to have presented at your Lordships' bar.—( Hear.)
It is not absolutely necessary that we should go into this
inquiry just at the moment we are ripe for the considera-
tion of this subject in any way the Noble and Learned
Lord may think proper to bring it forward. It is not an
inquiry that is calculated to lead to a useful end. Look
to
the delay it would occasion, and the interminable nature of
the disputes it would involve us in. It is nothing
less than going into a Committee upon the state
of the nation. It is calculated to exclude all consi-
detalion of po!itic. It is a Committee on the coin-
. coerce—on the agricultural state of the country —in short,
, on the state of the nation. From the evidence that