The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH

5, 1863,

been concluded in concurrence with the Government. All perately used, and there is no mode in which it could be
the arrangements had been finally made, and, he believed, more mildly and temperately used than in dealing with
to the satisfaction of all parties. (Hear, hear.) The such a measure as th s. (Hear.) If this be a declaration
authorities of other districts through which the procession not involving any security to the Church, but if it be felt to
would pass had expressed an anxious desire to testify their be painful to an important part of the community, and if we
respect and loyalty, and the Government had deemed it long ago recognised the truth that there is no use in impos-
right to afford such parties the fullest opportunity of ing in any shape civil disabilities on account of religious
doing so. (Hear, hear.) If therefore, all parties, the opinions, then I think the mode in which the house deals
City authorities included, had determined to accompany the with such a bill as this would afford the country no unsure,
procession to the end of the route, great delay and confusion no fallacious test of the way in which those who are at-
could not have felled to result. (Hear, hear.) No place tached to the Church of England are disposed to use their
had been prepared for members of that house. No parties strength. (Hear.) At any rate, having myself for so many
would take part in the procession, which, as he years represented a large body of the clergy of the Church
had already said, would consist of six carriages of England, and having on various occasions submitted my
except the city and other authorities fairly entitled by claims to represent them to their revision, I have no hesita-
their authority and jurisdiction to constitute a part of it.l tion iu saying that whether my hon. friend who is the pro-
Sir G. BOWYER declared that the right hon, baronet poser of this bill, and the hon. gentleman who has seconded
bad not completely answered his question. (Cries ot the third reading, have any ulterior views or not, they are,
" Hear, hear.") by the course which they have taken, in point of fact acting
Sir G. GREY added that the civic procession would the part of true and prudent friends of the real interests of
not proceed any further than Temple Bar. The other the Church of England. (Cheers.)
authorities, who were very numerous, would conduct the Mr. WAL I'OLE (who rose amid cries of " Dividel)
cortege to Paddington. said -I am well aware that the house is anxious to come
THE NIGHT OF THE ILLUMINATIONS. t , a division, and there has been, I believe, a sort of under-
Mr. WALTER inquired what arrangements had been standing that a division without a discussion wes likely to
made on the night ot the royal marriage for the passage of take 1 lace upon this occasion. But unfortunately, as I
carriages along the streets ? think, that understanding has been brok,ra by the promo-
Sir G. GREY replied that he had been in communication ter of this bill—(cries of " No, no l")—and, after the dis-
with the Chief Commissioner of Police on the matter, and cussion which has taken place, and after the remarkable
it had been arranged that space would be kept in the streets speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I don't think
to enable carriages to pass to and fro. (Hear, hear.) the debate ought to be terminated without some answer
Mr. PAULL asked a question with respect to the being attempted to that speech. The hon. gentleman who
sheriffs. moved the third reading quoted myself on a previous occa-
Sir G. GREY replied that the Sheriffs of London being ei„, as having said that the declaration which this bill
Sheriffs of Middlesex likewise, would continue with the seeks to abolish was no great security to the Church.
procession to its termination at Paddington. (Hear, bear,) lam of that opinion still. (Hear, hear.) I
An Hox. MEMBER asked what arrangements had been think this bill is of an insignificant character, either as re-
made with respect to Hyde-park? gards any relief to be given to Dissenters on the one hand,
Mr. COWPER replied that carriages would be allowed or as regards danger to the Church on the other. Then, it
to pass through the line of volunteers; but, as there would I will be asked, wby oppose it? (Cheers.) My answer is, why
be vast numbers of people on foot, no horsemen would be do you propose it? (Counter cheers.) That would be the
allowed, save those connected with the royal cortege or in first answer, and I believe the legitimate one, for Ido think
connection with the volunteers that this declaration was a compact made at the time when
Sir G. GREY said he had just received a letter from the Test and Corporation Acts were repealed. (Hear, hear.)
the city authorities to the effect that if they could not have Ido think it is in the nature of a compact, in this sense at
precedence in the procession they preferred to go no further least, that when you grant a great measure of relief and
than Temple-bar. (Laughter.) propose to append to it any conditions which are considered
TREASURE TROVE, as securities, whether they be so or not, those who receive
On the motion for going into committee of supply, the benefit of that relief ought not to come to Parliament to
Sir J. JERVOISE rose to call attention to two circulars try to do away with the conditions upon which the relief
addressed to the chief constable of the county of Hants,
was granted. (Hear, hear.) My right hon. friend the Chan-
dated respectively, Whitehall, Aug. 27, 1860, and White-
cellor of the Exchequer say s, and says truly, that no corn-
ball, Jan. 9, 1861, on the subject ot treasure trove,
The SPEAKER being summoned by the Black Rod (Sir pact can be made by one Parliament which is to bind an-
A. CLIFFORD), repaired to the House of Lords to hear the other, (Cries of " Hear, hear.") That is perfectly true; but
Royal assent given by commission to several bills. On his there are understandings with respect to measures of this
return, description which, unless adhered to, will prevent us from
Lord PALMERSTON explained the part he took in the
making those reforms which may be desirable, but which
transaction.
Mr. F. PEEL explained the mode of action in regard to will not be made unless conditions like those in question be
found property and treasure trove. maintained. (Hear, hear.) It is in that sense that I think
NAVY ESTIMATES—OBSOLETE VESSELS OF the compact ought to be maintained, and I think also that
WAR. the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the very last person who
Mr. COBDEN then rose to call attention to the large
ought to use the argument he did, for if ever a compact was
number of oesolete vessels of war in the British Navy ; and
to offer some observations on the conduct of our naval ad- made by man it wasmade by my right hon. friend—l allude
ministration, which had produced this state of things. to the repeal of the income-tax. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and
(LEFT SPEAKING.) , "Hear, hear.") So much for the maintenance of compacts.
Well, why wish the law to be maintained? My right, hon.
friend said, and said truly, the Church of England is in
some danger from internal dissensions, but in none from
free discussion. But what is it that has provoked these dis-
cussions? Is it any attack on the past of the Church of
England? Have not the members of that Church on every
occasion manifested the utmost desire to give in the fullest,
freest manner, all that my right hon. friend calls religious
liberty ? (Hear, hear.) Well, then, what has provoked
these discussions ? Unhappily, I think I may say they are
owing to this—that the Dissenters in a series of measures
advocated by some from good and conscientious motives,
by others with the avowed object of attacking the Church,
have brought forward bill after bill until they have raised
a resistance which they will not easily quell. (Cheers)
But my right hon. friend says that this declaration
partakes of the nature of civil inequality. But was that the
language used by Lord Russell in 1828 ? (Hear.) That
noble lord said that the object of the declaration was simply
this—that those who made it should not use the power
which they cleaved from any corporate office to the preju-
dice of the Church of England. If there be any civil in-
equality in that then the argument of my right hon. friend
comes to this—that the Dissenters ought to be freed, that
they may be at liberty to act to the prejudice of the Church
of England. (Hear. hear.) Sir, every argument that I
have heard in support of the bill becomes of serious im-
port, because it shows, or tends to show, that there is
something more in the background. (Hear, hear.) I will
add only one word more. I was not in my place last
evening, but I see that a certain measure was resisted then
by so high an authority as the First Minister of the Crown
upon the ground that it might lead to another measure which
he always opposed. (Hear, hear.) If that be a legitimate
ground of opposition, and if the argument of the noble lord
which opened up the question of ulterior measures be good,
can there be a stronger reason for treating this bill as some-
thing very serious, something more than appears upon the
face of it? (Hear, hear.) I shall, therefore, c3rdially
support my hon. friend in his motion for the rejection of
this bill. (Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. FORSTER and Mr. NEwDE-
GATE in explanation, the house divided, when there ap-
peared—
For the third reading 175
Against it 172
Majority —3

HOUSE OF COMMONS.--Yesterday.
QUALIFICATION FOR OFFICES ABOLITION
BILL.
Mr. HADFIELD, in moving the third reading of this
bill, alluded to the large attendance of members on so in-
convenient a day for an attendance as a Wednesday. No
less than four times this bill bad been passed by the House
of Commons, and no less than 72 peers--comprising names
of the highest historical renown—had voted in its favour.
None of the Ministers of the Crown, nor, indeed, any of
the other officers of the State, from the highest to the lowest,
bad, on taking office, signed the existing declaration for the
last 30 years. He was therefore at a loss to understand why
it should be retained in the ease of municipal authorities, to
many of whom its application was exc, edingly oesive.
He warned those who opposed the bill that, by rejec fftinng it,
it might stir up discord among, as now, au united people.
The boon sought by the bill was but a small one to ask,
and ought to be granted.
Mr. BAINES seconded the motion.
Mr. NE WDEGATE moved that the bill be read a third
time that day six months. Each session the majorities
against the bill had augmented, showing the feeling of
the house on the matter. The real object of the measure
was to enable members of corporations to use their cor-
porate power to attack and undermine the Church of Eng-
land.
Mr. SELWYN seconded the motion.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am un
willing to give to this measure only such support as is ac-
corded by a silent vote, because I confess I not only feel
myself bound by former acts and present convictions to vote
in its favour—(cheers)—but I cannot help expressing my
very great regret at the error which I think the hon.gentle-
man opposite has comnitted in opposing the bill. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman who has moved that the bill
be read a third time this day six months' has founded his
objection on this ground—that the present arrangement is
of the nature of a compact. (Hear, hear.) 1 do not deny that
there are certain Acts of Parliament which may more or less
approximate to the character of a compact,hut that doctrine
even in its application to particular cases ought to be treated
with great jealonsy,bccause the effect of it would be to throw
into abeyance the whole power and responsibility of the Le-
gislature for the time being.' (Hear, hear.) It isna very diffi-
cult and dangerous doctrine to hold that there may be ar-
rangements made by former Parliaments in matters of gene •
ral legislation. I do not refer to acts which contain particular
promises to particular persons for particular purposes, but
it is exceedingly difficult to hold that it is competent for the
Legislature at a given moment to tie up the hands of the
Legislature of a subsequent period,which must always remain
under the paramount obligation of determining what is for the
interests of the country. I must say I have rarely known
a case in which the argument of a compact has been more
hardly dealt with than in the present instance, The hon.
gentleman has quoted the words of Lord Russell to show
that this is a matter of compact. I cannot admit that it was
in the power of my noble friend (Lord Russell), even if he
had the inclination, to give the character of a compact to
such a declaration ; but there is not the slightest evidence
that such was his intention. The words simply amount to
this, that the arrangement then proposed was a fair arrange-
ment for the Parliament of the time to mike. (Hear, hear.)
There is no evidence that he accepted it as a perpetual and
unalterable settlement, in which light it is that the hon.
gentleman now urges it as an objection to the bill. But if
there bo nothing in the nature of the case that affixes to it
the character of a compact—and I, for my part, would say
that the nature of the case almost defies the idea of a com-
pact—l ask the house to consider the policy of the question.
And here I place myself in the position of one wh,o in addi-
tion to his general duties of a Minister of the Crown and
member of Parliament, has a special duty as the represen-
tative of a large portion of the clergy of the Church of Eng-
land, and I confidently say, holding the language I have
held ever since I had the honour to represent them—now a
period of 15 years—that there is no benefit to the Church of
England front the maintenance of such a declaration.
(Cheers.) For what does this declaration do ? Ido not
deny that in 1828 it was wise of Lord Russell, or of those
who supported him, to accept the declaration; but the cir-
cumstances of 1828 were different from those of 1863. (Hear,
hear.) Look at the changes which have occurred in our legis-
lation—the admission of the Roman Catholics to Parliament,
the admission of the Jews. (Hear, hear.) Look at the man-
ner in which, since 1828, the whole system of the adminis-
tration of the State has been altered—how it hasbeen founded
upon the general recognition of the equal civil righ s of the
members of all religions. (Hear.) I admit this declaration
does contain in it more or lees of an acknowledgment of civil
inequality. It does constitute a civil inequality when cer••
Min persons are singled out to make a declaration limiting,
or tending to limit, the discharge of their obligations as
members of Parliament, or as holders of any other office
of trust. (Hear. hear.) But let me look at this declaration
as a security. If it be a security it is one which each person
may interpret for himself, and I must confess it appears to
be such that, while it may possibly fetter the hands of a
very scrupulous man, those persons who assume to them-
selves an ordinary freedom will find very little difficulty in
exercising under the pressure of it nearly all the liberty
which they would exercise even if there were no such re-
straint. Now, it is not good policy to depend upon decla-
rations the whole force of which depends upon private in-
terpretation. (Hear, hear.) But, Sir, Ido not admit that
the Church of England has any occasion to take a security
of this kind. (Hear, hear.) It is admitted that the pres-
sure of this declaration is intended to be upon Dissenters;
but I do not see any danger to the Church of England aris-
ing from Dissenters to Roman Catholics. (Hear, hear.) If
the Church of England has dangers—and I fear she has—
they arise from internal dissensions. (Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") I most sincerely trust she may outlive and over-
come them—(hear, hear),—for, in my opinion, it would be
a sad thing for the nation, and for all persons, Dissent-
ers included, if she'.ceased to exist, (Hear, hear.) But
for the last thirty years I have not been able to trace
any danger to the Church of England from the Dissenters.
If Dissenters have shown on special occasions a particular
desire to secure privileges for their own bodies, the effect of
that is to create a reaction favourable to the Church on the
part of the immense majority of the nation. (Hear, hear.)
The great increase of the anxiety to defend the Church of
England for several years past is due to the fact that some
pressure has been attempted to be exercised on the Church
by particular members of Dissenting bodies in measures
which they have promoted or introduced. (Hear,.t hear.)
But the
But if that be so we have, I think, a
Church of England in the zeal of ittshioswhnoumsesecemu:bleyrs, as
and, proved
proved
dicated by what has taken p.lacefna
thoroughly natural and
by sure experience-4 security o
wholesome character because produced by the
very action of
freediscussion, because it implies no inequality, because it
affures no brand, but is a constant part of our parliamentary
system by which the tendencies to excess, of which every
party must be conscious, are checked and controlled by the
reaction which they create. (Hear.) It is manifest that a
strong feeling of zeal does not prevail among many mem-
bers of this house for treating any measures that may be
introduced in a manner favourable to the Church; but I
must say that a vigorous indication of that feeling would in
the end prove unfavourable, unless it were mildly and tem-

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 4.
QUALIFICATION FOR
LOFFICES ABOLITION
81.

Order for third reading read. Motion made and question
proposed, " That the bill be now read the third time."
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word ' now,' and
at the end of the question to add the words " upon this
day six months." Question put, " That the word ' now'
stand part of the quesLion." The house divided—Ayes,
175 ; Noes, 172.

AYES —175.
Adair, H. E. Ewart, J. C. North, F.
.Agnew, Sir A. Ewing, H. E. C. Ogilvy, Sir J.
Alcock, T. Finlay, A. S. Onslow, Guildford
Anson, Major Forster, Charles D. O'Reilly, M.
Antrobus, E. Forster, W. E. Packe, Col.
Ayrton, A. S. Fortescue, Hon. F. Padmore, R.
Aytoun, 11,. S. Gaskell, J. M. Paget, C.
Barbour, J. D. Gavin, Major Paget, Lord C. E.
Baring, A. 11. Gibson. T. M. Pease, H.
Baring, Thos. Geo. Gilpin, C. Peel, Sir R.
Barnes, Thomas Gladstone, W. E. Pender, J.
Baxter, W. E. Goldsmid, Sir F. Peto, Sir JAL
Bazley, Thomas Gowet, G. W. L. Pilitington, James
Berkeley, C. Greene, Capt. J. Potter, E.
Biddulph,lCol. R.M. Grenfell, H. R. Powell, J.
Black, Adam Grey, Rt. lin. Sir G. Pritchard, John
Blake, J. A. Grosvenor, Earl Raynham, Viscount
Blencowe, J. G. Gurdon, B. Robartes, T. J. A.
Bouverie, E. P. Gurney, John H. Robertson, H.
Brand, 11. B. Banbury, R., jun. Roebuck, J. A.
Briscoe, J. I. II andley, John Russell, A. J. E.
Browne, Lord J. T. Ilardcastle, Jos. A. St. Aubyn, J.
Bruce, H. A. Bayter, Sir Wm. Scott, Sir W.
Buchanan, W. Headlam, Thus. E. Seely, C.
Buller, J. W. Henley, Lord Seymour, 11. D.
Buller, Sir A. B ibbert, J. Seymour, Ai
Butler, C. S. liodgkinson, G. Shaft°, R. D.
Butt, Isaac Howard, Hon. C. Shelley, Sir J. V.
Calthorpe, F. H. Ingham, It. Sheridan, R. B.
Cardwell, Rt. Hn. E. Jackson, W. Smith, J. B.
Caruegie,Hn. C. King* Hon. P. Smith, J. A.
CavenCish, Hon. W. Kinglake, A. W. Somerville, Sir W.
Clifford, C. C. Kinglake, Serj. J. Stacpoole, W.
Clifton, Sir R. Kinnaird, Hon. A. Staniland, M.
Clive, George Knatclibull-Hugess Stansfeld, J.
Cobden, R. Layard, A. H. Steel. John
Colebrooke, Sir T.E. Langton, W. H. Stuart, Col.
Co m, Wm, Lanigan, J. Sykes, Col. W. H.
Taylor, P. A.
Cox, W. Lawson, W.
Tomline, G.
Craufurd, E; H. J. Leatliam, E.
Crossley, Sir F. Leving-e, Sir R.G.A. Trelawny, Sir J. S.
Turner, J. A.
Dalglisii, Robert Lewis, Harvey
Locke, Joan Villiers, Rt. lion. C.
Davey, R.
Davie, Col. F. Lowe, lit. Hon.R. Walter,alter, John
Lysley, W. arner„ Edward
Denman, G. v
Dent, John Dent M'Cann, J. Wemyss, J.
Dering, S:r E. McEvoy, E. Western, T. S.
Dillwyn, Lewis L. Mackinnon,W. A. Westhead, J.
Divett, Edward McMahon, P. Whalley, G. H.
Dodson, John G. Maguire, J. F. White, Jas.
Dou2las, Sir C. Marjoribanks, D. C. White, L.
Duff, M. E. Martin, P. W. Wickham, H. W.
Dunbar. Sir Wm. Martin,J. Williams, W.
Dundas, Frederick Massey, W. N. Wood, W.
Dundas, Sir David Merry, James Wrightson, W.
Dunkcllin, Lord Mills, J. It.
Ellice, E., jun. Mitchell, T. A.
Enfield, Viscount Moncreiff, J.
Evans, T. W. Morris, D. Hadfield, Gm'
Ewart, William Morrison, W. Baines, E

TELLERS.