The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-15 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION

1 that it should not be matter of necessity that the amount of
contributions from the State should not strictly follow the
amount of private subscriptions. The other was that aid
might be granted to schools not in connection with either
of these two Societies. With regard to the first point he
found it recommended, in the Report of the Committee on
the education of the poorer classes—they recommended
that the amount of assistance should be regulated and mo_
' dified by cases of poverty and distress, and none of his col-
leagues were inclined to depart from the spirit of
that recommendation.—( Loud cheers.) All they
contended for in the proposed modification vas
that there should be no exclusion from a participation in

. .
the bounty of the State, of districts, which being most
populous and most destitute, and having no provision
made for education, was still excluded, by their poverty,
and the absence of any wealthy resident proprietors, from
all participation in the funds bestowed upon more opulent
neighbourhoods where they were less needed.—(Cheers.)
With respect to the other point of extending aid to schools
not in connection with these Societies, he would state that
while the Committee of the Privy Council thought it their
primary duty to extend the far greater portion of the as-
sistance to be given to the schools supported by the more
numerous class of their fellow-countrymen, namely the
Churcirmen and Dissenters, yet they thought it just, fair,
en
reayn
ifmer from
dtyh en
rn a i o
classu
of of rp ge
resnnenrsa lwienunr phoes
lepse,
dt that
to
and proper, when application was made for .the public
snits
caonnYs t ictourt'e-
that nation should not be excluded irrevocably
and formally from all these benefits, it being al-
way; understood that, with regard to numbers,
importance, and destitution, they made out a fair and rea-
sonable claim. The main objection to the original scheme
was, that the proposed union would be merely a wretched
compromise : whether that objection was well or ill-founded
it no longer existed. Now, however, that they had no
system limited education, the Noble Lord shifted his
ground with great facility, and objected to public aid being
extended to a certain class on the grouted of that education
being separate and distinct. What, then, was it the Noble
meant ?—( Hear, bear.) What was the principle on which
he meant to:proceed ?—( Cheers.) Was he prepared to say
that it was right, proper, and just to exclude from the be-
nefits and blessings of education certain proscribed classes ?
( Hear.) He had his own opinion of many of the Roman
Catholic doctrines—he gad his own opinion with respect to
the Unitarian doctrines, and he thought that in the present
state of feeling of the country, Protestants and Unitarians
were entitled to an infinitely larger proportion of the public
funds ; but while the State employed Catholic sinews and
fingered Unitarian gold, he would not lay it down as an
incontrovertible axiom that the State should refuse any
participation in its funds to those who might be immured at
once both in physical misery and mental and intellectual'
blindness.—( Loud cheers.) Great objection had been
made to the right of inspection, and the power
of adopting successive improvements, which the Com-
mittee might find themselves called upon to recommend.
Now the spirit of the Report was very unfairly repre-
sented, if it was supposed or:insinuated that there was any
attempt to depart from the original design of the schools.
What were the words of the Report ? 1r recognized the
right of inspection, in order to establish and maintain uni-
formity of discipline in the schools. And then with respect
to improvements, power was given to introduce them from
time to time. It was clear that none of these improve-
ments could be inconsistent with the original designs of the
schools ; but he thought it would be going too tar to say,
that if it should appear by examination and inquiry that the
schools were conducted on a slovenly system, there should
be no room for the introduction of such improvements and
such an amended system as might be deemed necessary.—
( Hear, (hear.) For these reasons he, thought it right
that the system of inspection should be maintained.
The Noble Lord had admitted that in a qualified manner
these must be some inspection. Now he ( Lord Morpeth)
could not think that inspection could be carried on satisfac-
torily by the exertions of any private Society.—( Hear,
hear.) Even the schools of the two Societies which had
been so frequently named showed in some things a want of
attention. In his opinion the power of inspection ought to
be vested in the State, in order that the schools should not
be allowed to degenerate from the plans of the founders.
.—(Hear, bear, hear.) The responsible Ministers of
the Crown, the servants of the people, to whom all
complaints were naturally made, ought to be enabled to
be in a state of readiness to give an explanation whenever
called upon to do so.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord threw
out some objections to the persons composieg the Com-
mittee of the Privy Council—they might be persons in
whom the Noble Lord had no confidence —that was a
matter entirely for the consideration of the Noble Lord; of
course he could not expect that he ( Lord M.) could
join him in that sentiment. The Noble Lord thought it
would be proper that the Board should be composed of
ecclesiastics; he could net for a moment join in that
opinion, for be had no doubt it would at once increase the
strife and religious warfare which unhappily existed at
present.—( Cheers.) For instance, many persons might
wish to see the Bishop of London, in whom the Church
justly took so much pride, at the Board; then, to balance
that, the Dissenters might ask that Dr. Pye Smith, or any
other of the Learned men belonging to their sect, should
be a Member of the Board, and he would not guarantee
the House, after the debate of last night, that there might
not be a motion to add the name of some eminent Bishop
of the Roman Catholic Church.--( Hear.) Let the pastors
of every denomination tender such suggestions and advice
as they think best calculated to carry out the benevolent
ends which all had in view without creating any feeling of
unfairness or exclusiveness, which most undoubtedly
would arise if they were made the dispensers of the bounty
of Parliament. Ile confessed that if Hon. Gentlemen
opposite thought they could propose a scheme that would
conciliate conflicting objections, he would be most happy
to hear it propounded ; but till that were done, he would
be most glad to take even the little that was offered as an
instalment, so that it in no manner infringed upon the great
principles of Civil and Religious Liberty.—( Cheers. )
He was perfectly indifferent to the abuse which had been
heaped upon the Government for their plans of education ;
indeed he was indifferent to the abuse which had been
heaped upon them for even the present modified plan—all
he wanted was to have more education—( Loud cheers)_
he wanted to have Churchmen, to have Dissenters, better
educated—he wanted to better educate, not only orthodox,
but also hetorodox—he wanted to have the mass of the people
better educated, and by more efficient teachers.--( Loud
cheers.) He would say that if the faith which he held to
be true was destined to fall, he would rather that it should
fall before enlightened opponents than be prostrated
before undiscerning and brutal ignorance.—(Cheers.) All
parties had hitherto been greatly deficient upon the head of
education. Ile did not wish to be censorious as to
what was past. The Church and the State, as well as
the Dissenters, had been deficient. He was pleased,
however, to think that there was now a change—that now
there was a prospect of better days before them. no was
glad to see the reviving efforts of all parties, and he would
most willingly and most gladly lend all his humble aid to
that humble beginning ; and he would at all times willingly
lend himself to the 'great cause of an extended scheme of
national education.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst
loud cheering.)
Lord A SHL E Y.—lf he bad not before entertained any
misgivings that the plan or intentions of the Government
were not altered, his mind would have been filled with them
after the speech of the Noble Lord who had just sat down.
'That Noble Lord, a Member of the Government, wanted
to have the powers of the Committee greatly extended;
and when he took credit to the Noble Secretary for the
Home Department for giving up the first plan of edu-
cation, be ( Lord Ashley) must say that he dif-
fered from him, because they both tended to the
same end, and if not controlled by a vote of that
House, they must unquestionably work the same results.
The same powers were continued to the Committee—not
one of them was given up, and there was nothing to pre-
vent them from setting up al normal or model school the
moment the Houses of Legislature were closed. They
were clearly told by the Noble Lord (Morpeth) that the
scheme was not abandoned—merely postponed for further
consideration—they were told distinctly by a Minister of
the Crown, that they had not departed from the first plan.
That view of the matter was taken by all classes—by the
Wesleyans, as was shown by the resolutions of their
Committee of Conference, and it was held equally
by one who was an acute writer, but no Tory—it
was held by the editor of the leading supporting journal of
the Ministry—the Morning Chronicle.—( Cheers end
laughter.) It might be convenient to laugh at that state-
ment, but that opinion was held not only by Churchmen,
but by Wesleyans—not only by Tories, but by the
Morning Chronicle and the great majority of the people of
this country. It was a most important question, as it in.
volved the whole tone of the whole youth of the country ;
by consequence, it involved the welfare both temporal and
spiritual, of millions of the people. The proposed scheme
was not unconstitutional, still it was decidedly sub-
versive of the Constitution.—( Hear, hear.) Her Ma-
jesty could constitutionally call upon any of her Privy
Cot:licit for advice, most undoubtedly. She might
also send twenty thousand Peers up to the House of Lords
—constitutionally she had the power to do so, but still it
must be subversive of the Constitution : the present
scheme was subversive of the Constitution of Church
and of the revealed religion. Nothing would induce him
f men of whatever party, or any party,
to invest any body o ,
Noble Lord given
any reason
with the proposed powers; nor had the
for introducing so novel a plan as making so
important a subject the subject of only one vote of the
House. Surely it should have been introduced in the
shape of a Bill, so that it might be considered on each
stage, and have had the consideration of the two branches
of the legislature—espec2ally of the House of Lords, where
the Bishops were, who were peculiarly responsible upon
such a subject—they ought to be asked for their opinion,
to know how far they thought the plan would be for the
benefit of the people. The .Noble Lord had shown no
public ground for introducing such a precedent for mere
party purposes—it was one which might be
bear.'
carried
much further, and to a danf.Terouo extent.—
(sHh a precedent
By adopted this scheme, they would
and in
other times,
which, under other Governments,
might ultimately prove fatal to the Constitution under
which we at present lived.—(Hear, how.) In that view,
he considered it to be hostile to the
to th e Church. By
.Constitution. He
likewise considered it to be hostile
this measure the Church would be
-
privod of the
super-
intendence of all those schools
that de
should accept a grant,
the
The funds of the State were to be employed against
• is the
with Church. If they refused to assist the Church
State funds, at least they ought not to employ the State
funds to assail
her. The Church thus would either have
d
t from the supermten ence of her
altoschools by
to depar
•e a grant, or else forego the grant gether and
accepting
thus be placed in this conditon—that, being the recognised
Church of the State, she was the only Church precluded
from a share in the national grant. The Bench of Bishops
were virtually set aside by this Order in Council. If the
Church of England accepted a grant, her schools would
have to submit to inspection ; and if the terms of inspec-
tion were such as she could not accede to, that would be
an injustice towards her. The terms of inspectioni werp
to be in conformity with the Order in Council,with such
improvements as might from time to time be suggested to
the
the Committee. It was stated by the Noble Lord,kshire, i that the m.
Member for the \Vest Riding of Yorkshire,
bwacter, or such as
provernent would not be of a violent c