The Sun.
London, England, 1863-03-24 00:00:00

THE SttN, LONDON, TUESDAY tArtNING, MARCH 24, 1861.

tiie principle of recognition, or still hesitate as to taking so
decided a course, he should not be the less indebted to their
lordships for enabling him to show that the neutral Powers
had an indisputable title to acknowledge Southern indepen•
deuce, and that until they exereised that title the war in
America would never end. (Hear, hear.)
Earl RUSSELL—My lords, I suppose there is no member
of either house of Parliament who does not wish for a ter-
mination of a civil war in America. (Hear, hear.) It dis-
turbs commerce, it interferes with the peace of the world,
and it afflicts America herself (hear, hear) ; and if any-
thing could be usefully, and, I must add, justly done to
bring that war to a termination, I repeat there is no member
of either house of Parliament, there is no person in the
country, who would not gladly see such a consummation.
(Hear, hear.) But after having listened to my noble friend,
I must confess I remain in the same persuasion as before at
the present mement—and I speak only of the present mo-
ment—that there is nothing this country could do usefully
and wisely which would tend to the termination of the hos-
tilities on the other side of the Atlantic. (Hear, hear.) My
noble friend has somewhat mixed different topics, and he
has alluded to three different modes of intervention
in the affairs of other countries. One, which is the mini-
mum of interference, that of advice, good offices, and medi-
ation; another, the mode proposed by my noble friend,
that of recognition; and the third, one which we have
sometimes resorted to, and which other nations have more
frequently had recourse to—that of forcible intervention.
My noble friend says, and says truly, that since I had the
honour of addressing the house last summer there has
been some divergence between the views of the Government
of this country and that of the Emperor of the French. The
Government of the Emperor of the French conceived that it
might tend to the termination of the war if three Powers—
France, Great Britain, and Russia—were to propose a sus-
pension of arms with a view of negotiation between the two
belligerents. Her Majesty's Government, after carefully
examining that proposition, came to the conclusion that its
adoption by us would not be likely to lead to its acceptance
by the Government of the United States of America ;
while, by causing irritation, it would not increase but dimi-
nish the chances of cur seeing a termination of the con-
test. The French Government has proceeded in accord-
ance with its views, and has actually proposed to the Go-
vernment of the United States to negotiate with the
Southern States. That proposition has not been adopted ;
and I think your lordships will judge from what has hap-
pened with reference to the proposals of France, and
with reference to suggestions thrown out in other countries,
that any interference on the part of this country would only
have tended to aggravate the evils of the present lamentable
state of affairs in America. (Hear, hear.) It does not
appear at the present moment that this contest would be
likely to be terminated by an offer of our good offices. I say
at the present moment, because it is impossible to say that,
in the course of events, a time may not come when both
the contending parties would be desirous of the good offices
or wise counsels of friendly Powers. Ido not see any pro-
bability of that at this moment, but I wish to guard myself
against being supposed to speak positively of the future.
(Hear, hear.) We come, then, to the course proposed by my
noble friend—namely, that of recognition. My noble friend
alluded to several cases—not very happy illustrations of his
argument, I think—in which the United States of America
have recognised insurgent countries which they believed
likely to be able to maintain their independence. One was
the revolted State of Hungary, whose independence had
sunk like the island in the Mediterranean. It had disap-
peared before the despatch reached Vienna by which the
United States recognised it. Another instance referred to
by my noble friend scarcely comes within the category,
though it has been quoted by a gentleman who has written
some very able letters under the title of " Historicus"—l
mean the recognition of the United States themselves by
France two years after the war with this country had be-
gun. If anyone will examine that precedent, and the im-
portant documents which have lately come to light, he will
see that the French monarchy of the day had, most unfor-
tunately for itself, been exciting democratic passions in
America, and had been endeavouring to raise opposition
there to the Government of Great Britain. It had prepared
means of concert with those States; and even in the letter,
so courteous in appearance, but so exceedingly hostile and
bitter in its spirit, written by the French ambassador, it
was stated that the French Government had not only made
a treaty of commerce with the United States, but further,
that they had a right to carry that treaty into effect, if
necessary, even by force. This was a threat to take part
in the war between Great Britain and her revolted colonies.
But we know that besides this open threat there was a
secret treaty signed, by which France lent her support to
the revolted provinces, and the opposition of this country,
which was then as decided as ever any opposition was,
agreed that the threat was one of war, and that by war only
could it be met, This was not a case of recognition but a
case of interference. It was, I think, a case of most unjus-
tifiable interference, an interference for the purpose of
spreading those democratic principles, which afterwards re-
acted on France, and produced so many excesses and crime.
during the revolution. Well, then, with regard to the other
cases to which my noble thencl nes earterea, &nee. of Por-
tugal and Holland, were cases of forcible intervention. There
is hardly more than one case in which the question was
limited to simple recognition,—that was the war carried on
between Spain and her revolted colonies. and went on from
1808 to 1822 or 1828 without any proposal for a recognition.
This case is one worthy of the attention of your lordships,
because it was illustrated by the mild wisdom of Lord Lans-
downe, by the profound research of Sir James Mackintosh,
and by the dazzling genius of Canning. We have there-
fore:upon this question of recognition as much light as can
possibly be thrown upon any subject. Now I beg to refer
your lordships to the words of Lord Lansdowne. He was
zealous for the recognition of the South American Pro-
vinces, he thought it would be a great advantage to this
country to recognise them, and he was entirely free from
any trammels of office or any obligation to consult the
interests of the Minister of the day. But with that
wisdom and forbearance which characterised every act
of his public life—(hear, hear)—he stated that the first
thing to be considered was the right, and he went on thus :
—" It will be my duty this night to point out to your
lordships the great advantages which may result from the
establishment of South American independence. I hope
I shall never stand up in this house to recommend your
lordships to adopt any course of policy inconsistent with
those principles of right which are paramount to all expe-
diency, and which compose that great law of nations any
departure from which, to answer a selfish and ambitious
policy, never fails to recoil upon its authors." (Hear, hear.)
These are words upon which this house may well reflect
—(hear)--and we may well consider upon what grounds
Lord Lansdowne founded the views which I have just
brought under the notice of your lordships. In the first
place, he stated it was necessary that a country which re-
quired to be recognised should had established its inde•
pAidence. In the next place, that it should be able to main-
tain that independence for the future ; and lastly, that it
should be able to carry on with all foreign nations those re •
latione of peace and amity which form the general interna-
tional law of the world. Now, examine the state of the re-
volted provinces of Spain at that time, as Sir James Mackin-
tosh and Mr. Canning did. We find that the greater part of
South America had been some 12 or 14 years entirely free
from the presence of Spanish armies. We find that with
regard to those provinces in which this was not absolutely
the case—namely, Mexico, where Vera Cruz alone was oc-
cupied by a Spanish garrison, and Peru, where there were
4,000 or 5,000 Spanish troops, although the cause of
Spain seemed hopeless, it was agreed that their recog-
nition should be deferred, and that only in the case
of Buenos Ayres and those parts of South America
which had clearly and for a number of years established
their independence would it be right for Great Britain to
proceed to the step of recognition ? Besides this, Mr. Can-
ning took care to inform the Spanish Minister that such
recognition would not be very long delayed, that if the
Spanish Government wished to recognise them they ought
to take that step, and that Great Britain was willing to give
time before proceeding to recognise them herself. (Hear.)
W elf, nere is a great precedent for our eonsideration.—here is
a step taken by the Government of the day after consider-
able care and examination; here is a course recommended
by the Opposition of the day, not in any harsh spirit, but
notwithstanding the conviction which this country gene-
rally entertained that the cause of Spain was hopeless and
that the independence of those provinces was firmly estab-
lished. Well, now, if we look to the present position of
North America and compare with it that of the States of
which Lord Lansdowne spoke, we find that the war in North
America is still carried on with the utmost vigour—l had
almost said with the utmost fury, We find some of those
provinces which were the first to proclaim their indepen-
dence—a great part of Louisianna, New Orleans, and the
banks of the Mississippi, occupied by the Federal armies,
There are very considerable Federal armies menacing cities
of the Confederation, such as Charleston and Savannah,
So that no man can say it is a case of hopeless war. For
my own part, and speaking according to my limited vision,
I do not believe those efforts of the Federals will be success-
ful, But no man can say that the war is finally over, or
that the independence of the Southern States is establishei,
(Hear,) Well, then, what is the present state of the case ?
Although great efforts have been made in vain, the great
Federal Republic seems unwilling to accept the decision of
events. So far from it, we find•the last acts of the Congress
which has just expired are to place, by conscription, every
man fit to carry arms at the disposal of the President of the
United States, and to vote sums of money amounting to no
less than £180,000,000 sterling for the purpose of carrying
on the war. Well, then, in this state of affairs, I should
say that, looking to the question of right, it would not be a
friendly act towards the United States, it would not be to
fulfil our obligations to a country with which we have long
maintained relations of peace and amity—a great country,
which says it can still carry on the war—it would, I say,
be a failure of friendship on our part if at this moment we
were to interpose and recognise the Southern States. I
have endeavoured to guard myself by .saying that I speak
now with reference to the present aspect of affairs. I
hardly know any moment in which my noble friend could
have brought forward his motion with less encouragement
from events. It may turn out that these immense efforts
which are being made shall be made in vain; that the
spirit of the South is unconquerable as their determination
never to be united again with the Northern States is final
and irrevocable, and that a time may come when the duty
of this country will be totally different from what it is at

the present mament. All t maintain is, that it is our duly
at present to stand still, and not to proceed to an act so
definite, so positive—and an act so unfriendly to the United
States as that of the recognition of the South. (Hear.) My
noble fl lend spoke of various topics—of danger of Canada
being attacked by the Northern Republic, and of the West
Indies being attacked by the Southern. My lords, I cannot
follow my noble friend into these suppositions. Ido not
venture to say what may be the fuiure course of events. I
confine myself to that which I think to be our duty now
—(hear, hear)—which I think is right, and if that be so we
must be content in future days to meet with future dangers,
and it will not enfeeble our arms if we have it in our power
to reflect that we have never failed in our obligations to
those which have been great States in peace and amity with
us, and that it has not been through any fault of ours that
a-great affliction has fallen on them. (Cheers,) Well, my
lords, I know not that there is anything in what my noble
friend has said to-night which would make it necessary for
me to go much further into this question, but at the same
time there were parts of his speech in which he referred to
former occasions and former instances of interference on our
part, as if my noble friend and some of those who looked
forward to his motion to .night expected that there should
be some interference on our part in this war. Now, I wish to
say only a few words upon that which we have done infor-
mer days by way of intervention. We, too, like other
States, have at times taken upon us to intervene. We inter-
fered in the case of Holland to save her from the religious
tyranny and political despotism of Philip 11. That contest
was hallowed by the blood of Sir Philip Sydney, and by the
part we took we contributed to her independence. In an-
other case—the case of Portugal—we interfered. Charles 1.,
Cromwell, Charles IL, all agreed in that interference. We
declared ourselves ready to send 10,000 men to the aid of the
new Government of Portugal, and n e helped the Portu-
guese to relieve themselves from the Spanish tyranny under
which they groaned, and to establish the independence of
their State. In more recent times, when Greece endea-
voured to establish her independence, we aided her in her
contest with Turkey; we rescued her from the destruction
which threatened her, and helped her to found a free and in-
dependent monarchy. Take the case of Belgium again.
When the Belgians declared that they were unable to re-
main under the Government of Holland, in accordance
with the Treaty of Vienna, we interfered by force, in con-
junction with France, and the wise and happy arrange-
ment was made by which the freedom of Belgium was se-
cured. Now, my lords, in all these instances, whether the
intervention was carried on by our ancestors or in our own
times, there is nothing of which an Englishman need be
ashamed. (Hear, hear.) If we have taken part in interven•
tions, it has been in behalf of the independence, freedom,
and welfare of a great portion of mankind. I should be sorry
indeed if there should be any intervention on the part of
this country which could bear another character. (Cheers.)
I trust that this will not be the case, and that no interests,
deeply as they may affect us—interests which imply the
wellbeing of a great portion of our people, but interests
which may affect also the freedom and happiness of other
parts of the globe—will induce us to set an example different
from that of our ancestors, but that when we are bound to
interfere it will be an interference in the cause of liberty and
to promote the freedom of mankind, as we have, hitherto
done in such cases. (Hear.) It is with this conviction that
I have addressed these few remarks as to what has been
done by this country in former days, and I trust that, with
regard to this civil war in America, we may be able to con-
tinue our impartial and neutral course. Depend upon it,
my lords, that if that war is to cease, it is far betatesrointeshould
cease by
thaateetnhveyicteiaonn,
nbeovtherolnivtehaegapainrt ohfatphpeil North orth and the
com-
munity and one republic, and that the termination of hosti-
lities can never be brought about by the advice, the media-
tion, or the interference of any European Power. (Cheers.)
I repeat I have spoken only of the duty of the Government
at the present time, and I trust that there will now be no
further debate on this subject. (Loud cheers.)
After a few words from Lord STRATMEDEN the subject
dropped.

not without hope that the two Governments may be enabled 1861-2. It was not wise in time of peace to go on increasing
to come to an understanding in the Matter, these warlike establishments. The hon. Member complained
THE BUDGET. also that no setiefactory balance sheet was ever furnished, so
that their cost, which was enormous, was never really known.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave Gen. PEEL, apressed his regret that a regular debtor
notice that he intended to bring forward the financial and creditor account was not furnished with regard to these
statement of the Government on Thursday, the lath of establishments. With respect to the large rifled guns now
April, that being the second Government day after the coming into use, ho believed the last report of the number
recess; it not being usual, on account of the pressure of manufactured was up to March, 1862, at which time the
business, to submit the financial statement of the Govern- number was 1,935, of which about one-third were heavy
ment on the first Government day after the usual Easter guns of 1101bs. and upwards. It was evident from the ex-
recess. (Hear, hear.) periments made within the last few days that guns of larger
TOBACCO DUTIES BILL. calibre must soon be made, and he should like to see (if
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER also inti- there was no objection to it) some return laid before the house
mated that, in the event of this bill being reported this of the probable number of guns that would be required for
evening, as he apprehended it would be, he should ask leave the defence of the whole country. There might be a good
to move the third reading at half-past four to •morrow, so objection to stating the precise armament of a particular
that the bill might be sent up to the House of Lords and fortificatior, but he did not see any inconvenience in such a
passed into law before the Easter holidays. (Hear, hear.) general return. It was clear there must be a large increase
THE GRANT TO THE VOLUNTEERS, next year for those heavy guns.
In reply to Captain GRAY, Mr. NE WDEGATE complained that the accounts had
Sir G. LEWIS intimated that the conditions on which
never but once been laid before the house in the form ordered
the grant agreed to by the house would be allowed to volun- by the resolution framed upon the report of the small arms
teer corps were in a forward state, and would very shortly
committee.
be laid before the public. Sir M. PETO hoped that a stop would be put to the ex-
GREECE—PERSONAL EXPLANATION. pensive and unsatisfactory system of Government becoming
Mr. B. COCHRANE said some observations which he
their own manufacturers in all departments, when what
had made in the debate the other night on the affairs of
they require could be better supplied by the numerous re •
Greece had, it appeared, given offence to the friends of Mr,
spectable contractors of this large country. At all events,
Scarlett. He wished therefore to state that during the
he trusted that the Government would take proper precau-
recent events Mr. Scarlett had been placed in a position of
tions against a repetition of what had happened in regard
great difficulty, and had shown greet zeal, discretion,
to the Armstrong gun manufactories. Immense sums of
and judgment in the discharge of his duties. It
money had been supplied by the nation to establish them,
was also the opinion of the Greek gentlemen with
whom he had been acting that both Mr. Scarlett and Sir William Armstrong had been appointed to super-
and Mr. Elliot had by their appropriate conduct intend them, and it was supposed that the Government
were prepared to manufacture all the rifled artillery that
added very muchito the admirable conduct exhibited by the would be required. All at once Sir William Armstrong
Greeks during the recent events. (Hear.) retired ; the Government paid him a large sum for his
POLAND. machinery ; and, being well supplied with plant and mate-
Mr. HENNESSY rose to ask a question of the First
Lord of the Treasury as to the nature of the obligations rials, he had started afresh, at the head of an establishment
with respect to Poland involved in the Treaty of Vienna, capable probably of making guns for all the world. (Hear.)
With. respect to the reduction in the vote for the present
The hon. gentleman referred at some length to the corres-
year, he admitted it was considerable, but he quite agreed
pondence between the noble lord at the head of the Govern- that there must evidently be a large increase for the next
ment and Lord Heytesbury in 1831, on the &lairs of Poland, year. He hoped the hon. member would divide the house
in which the noble Lord (Palmerston) intimated he had upon the motion.
great reliance in the " benevolent intentions" of the Czar. Sir F. SMITH was of opinion that the vote might be
The time had long gone by when he (Mr. Hennessy) or others safely reduce i by the amount mentioned, but thought it
could repose any confidence whatever in those " benevolent would be very inconvenient for the Government to have to
intentions." The treaty of Vienna clearly implied that trust to private trade for everything it wanted. That re-
Great Britain would be justified in using warlike means to mark was especially applicable to gunnery, which private
enforce the provisions of that treaty, so far as Poland was
traders were not in the habit of supplying.
concerned, in the event of moral means having utterly
failed, as they had: Since the debate a few nights Sir G. C. LEWIS said there were two reductions in the
present year of £433,000 and £698,000 ; but, as regarded the
ago it did not appear that the Government future, he could not undertake to furnish estimates for years
had done anything ; indeed they had been treated with
which had not yet arrived. Ho felt confident that, for the
great forbearance by the house. Since the 27th of February amount he had named, adequate provision would be made
the insurrection in Poland had greatly extended, and he for the present year in guns and stores, and that sufficient
knew from authentic sources that many of the statements would be left in the magazines to prevent any risk of the
put forth by the newspapers with respect to the disasters service being crippled. He did not admit the justice of
that had attended the insurgents were utterly devoid of those statements which went to show that better warlike
truth.
stores could be obtained from contractors than from the
Viscount PALMERSTON—The hon. member gave establishments at Woolwich and elsewhere. From all he
notice of a question very short and very simple, but he did could learn on the subject, he arrived at the conclusion that
not give notice of his intention to go into a dissertation as men of the highest skill were at the head of the several
to the relative prospects in Poland of the Russian army and factories, and that under no other system could the country
those who were in resistance to that army. I will not fol- be better or more economically supplied. He was satisfied
low him throughout that dissertation, nor say anything that no advantage would arise from giving up the menu-
that will imply an opinion as to the probable result of that facture of projectiles, shot and shells, and of iron ordnance
contest. Everybody has an equal means of judging upon in the Government factories. With regard to the objec-
the subject. When the hon, gentleman on the former occa- tion of the hon. member for Gresham (Sir H. Willoughby)
sion mooted the question, as to the obligations of the treaty that the accounts were not well kept, however that
of Vienna, I understood him as implying there was in the might have been the case in former years, the objec-
treaty of Vienna an obligation on the part of Great Britain tion no Linger applied, for the accounts were as full and
to make war to interfere forcibly in the affairs of Poland. complete as could be desired. It was also asked what seen-
My answer was, that there was no such obligation. There rity there was for the stores, to which he replied that each
is a right, if you see fit to exercise it; but there is no en- person was chargeable with the articles furnished to him,
gagement entered into by Great Britain by that treaty and such person was called to account for every article in
which imposes the obligation of interfering by force to give his possession ; and every year a survey was held at all the
her interpretation to the terms of the arrangement of that stations, in order to ascertain the condition of the stores. In
treaty. To that interpretation I entirely adhere. I main- addtion to this, every fifth year stock was taken,when every
tain that this is the just exposition of the effect of that single article was counted; and this rule applied to foreign
treaty. I said that where a treaty between different Powers stations as well as to those in the United Kingdom, and he
does not contain an express stipulation to guarantee, on the was prepared to give an account, for example, of every arti-
part of any or all of these Powers, any particular arrange- cle in store in the lonian Islands. He came lastly to the
meat established by the treaty, there is a right in each of the proposal for reducing the vote by the sum of £2,000 in the
contracting parties to enforce the arrangement if it thinks column of "Establishments," upon the fact of the office of
fit, but there is no obligation, unless it is expressly stipu- Sir Wm, Armstrong being vacant; but it did not follow,
lated. But the hon. member changes his ground. He because an office was vacated, that there was to be economy
talks now of moral obligation ; and, instead of its being a on that account. At the same time, he admitted that some
moral obligation to interfere by force of arms, he, by the reduction could be made, and he had a plan under conside-
quotation he has made from a despatch of mine toLord Hey- ration which he trusted would effect a saving ; and he also
tesbury, shows that the interposition whichis therecontained contemplated the appointment of a military man as an in-
witsa totally different matter from that which he urged on a spector of artillery at Woolwich. He trusted that after this
feebler occasion. He quotes a despatch from myself to Lord explanation the hon. member would not press the small re-
Heytesbury, in which I say, " the insurrection being over, duction.
and the Russian Government having re-established its Sir J. FERGUSSON thought, notwithstanding the ex-
authority in Poland, his Majesty's Government in planation of the right hon. gentleman, the committee would
fulfilment of the obligations contracted by them by the be of opinion that they had no real control over the estimates
treaty of Vienna, would proceed to represent in friendly relating to these departments. The right hon. gentleman
terms to the Emperor of Russia considerations as to the had adverted to the large reduction in stores, but this fact
arrangements which he would make upon the establishment proved that the vote of last year must have been greatly in
-2 - s--s------s• n_..-.-...,.aunt in Poland." That is a very oxeess of the requirements of the country. The committee
different obligation to what I understood the hon. gentle- might be well assured that, if this, proporititat of tho right
man to argue on a former occasion. That obligation was hon. gentleman was adopted, the system of inspection would
fulfilled in the sense in which it was quoted, because the cost a vast deal more than £2,000 a year,
British Government did on that occasion make friendly re- Mr. MONSELL said that the proposition of the right
presentations on behalf of the Poles to the Emperor of hon. gentleman was an attempt to make a complete re-
Russia, urging what they thought was fitting for the Em- volution in the system adopted in the manufacturing
peror to do, both with regard to the obligations he had con- establishments in 1855. Had that system failed ? or had it
tracted by the treaty, and with regard to what was just and been, in the production of articles against which no corn-
right towards the Poles themselves. Now in that sense I plaint had been or could be made, a complete success ?
accept the interpretation of the hon. member, and when the He ventured to affirm that it had been a success, and that
proper time comes to lay before this house the papers show- nothing could be more absurd and monstrous than to change
ing what has been done and what is doing, the house will a system which had worked so well. Under those circum-
see that, so far as any obligation lies on the British Govern- stances, he asked the committee to pause before they con-
ment to make a friendly representation to the Emperor of curred in the change.
Russia on behalf of the Poles, that has been fulfilled. Now, Colonel DUNNE differed totally from the last speaker
with regard to the question as to the communications going as to the working of the present system. The Government
on between the French Government and the Government were doing well to reverse a policy which had not worked
of her Majesty with respect to the manner in which any well during the Crimean war.
representation shall be made, lam sure the house will feel Sir G. C. LEWIS said nothing had surprised him so
that it would not be useful, if it were fitting, to enter into much as that his modest proposal with respect to an alte-
details as to that which is now passing on that subject. But ration at Woolwich should have met with condemnation
when the hon. member reproaches us—and me especially— in that house. That it should have been condemned by
with not having, during the Crimean war, consented to the heads of the department of Woolwich seemed perfectly
agree to a proposal—if such a proposal had been made—to natural; but that hon. gentleman who had the control of
transfer the seat of operations from the Crimea to Poland, the public purse should meet with censure a proposal for a
I think the decision of her Majesty's Government was the simple inspection of the articles pr oduced in Government
only rational and sensible decision we could have come to. factories at Woolwich did seem astonishing. With regard
The war began upon a Turkish question ; the war began for to the carriage and laboratory departments, the system was
the purpose of preserving Turkey from invasion and attack that the persons who were charged with the conduct of
by Russia. We were, in conjunction with the French Go- those establishments inspected the produce of their own
vernment, engaged in securing the independence of Turkey. manufactories. Though he was not prepared to say that
The war. began upon a quarrel between the French and Rua- any serious inconvenience had arisen, the committee must
slang about a Turkish matter. The French began the quarrel see that it was a system which did not contain within itself
in which the war originated, therefore France was not the the elements of perfect control—(hear)—and that a time
party a/stifled to ask us, before that security had been ob- might arrive when serious practical inconvenienience might
tained, to relinquish a common enterprise and to embark in occur. (Hear.) With regard to the gun factory he be-
another undertaking which was totally unconnected with lieved there had been some imperfect external inspection,
the origin and cause of the war. I contend, therefore, that but it had amounted to very little. His proposition was
we acted wisely and properly in saying, " Let us accom- not a revolution such as the hon. gentleman had described,
plish what we have begun, namely, the protection of Tur- nor did it contemplate an additional expense of £30,000 or
key, and then let us see whether there is any ground for £40,000. All he asked was to be allowed to take £2,000 a
opening a fresh dispute with Russia as to other and wholly year saved by the resignation of Sir William Armstrong,
distinct matters." I say that upon that occasion we were
justified and he would undertake that the whole of that sum should
in the course we pursued of continuing what we
not be exhausted by the system of inspection which he
had begun, instead of suspending operations in order to em- proposed. He trusted therefore that the committee would
bark in a totally different matter. With regard to the still
support the original proposal.
earlier period of 1831, there were at that time considerations
After a few words in reply from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
which induced us to decline to enter into obligations which
the committee divided,
might lead to very serious difficulties between this country
The numbers for the amendment being .. 45
and Russia. We did make the the representations which
Against it
the hon. member has cited, and although, unfortunately,
Majority
they were not attended with the effect we wished, we did'
The vote was then agreed to.
all that we could diplomatically do ; and I beg the house to
bear in mind that the hon. gentleman now confines his in-
The next vote was one of £810,241 for works and buill-
terpretation of the treaty of Vienna to this—that we are ings, exclusive of the manufacturing departments.
under an obligation, as far as Poland is concerned, to inter-
On this being proposed,
fere diplomatically on the part of the Poles. lam convinced Mr. CHILDERS asked for explanation on the subject of
that we have done our duty, and I trust that any effort we the new barracks at Chelsea, for which a vote of £47,000
have made will be found to be attended with favourable re- was asked this year. The hon, gentleman also complained
salts to the interests of the people of Poland. of the further charge of £22,000 for Colchester Barracks,
when, both last year and the year before, the house had
INFANTRY AND CAVALRY OFFICERS.
On the motion for going into committee of supply, been assured that nothing more would be required. He
also made a similar complaint in regard to the new works
Colonel Nnto a committee to consider an humble address ORTH moved that the house, to-morrow, re- at Gibraltar and Malta. The extra expense might possibly
solve itself i be necessary, but some explanation ought to be given,
to be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be
showing what the money was wanted for. (Hear, hear.)
graciously pleased to give directions that the same com- Colonel NORTH complained of the dreadful state of the
mand pay shall be granted to officers commanding regi- barracks at Eastbourne, where there was a building that
ments of cavalry as is now given to officers commanding had cost £5,000 fitted up for 130 men, without closets or
regiments of infantry. conveniences of any kind, and the arrangements for the
Sir G. C. LEWIS admitted that there was an inequality night were so disgusting that he would not trust himself to
in the pay, and promised to rectify it in next year's votes. describe them.
The motion was therefore withdrawn. Mr. WILLIAMS spoke of the extravagant items for new
CHINA. works in the colonies, especially in Australia, Ceylon, and
Col. SYKES asked the Under Secretary of State for the Mauritius.
Foreign Affairs whether the statement of General Burge- Sir F. SMITH called attention generally to the loose way
vine, respecting the causes of the late mutiny of the in which the War Department were going on, spending
Chinese drilled troops, published in the Friend of China of large sums in unnecessary works, such as the £lO,OOO for
the 17th January, 1863, had been received at the Foreign- refacing the masonry of the Tower ditch wall (a fortress
office ; together with the protest of all his officers, 45 in now almost useless for anything but a store shed) and
number, against the attempt of the Chinese authorities to ,giving no satisfactory explanations to the house.
obtain his head by the offer of 50,000 taels, or for his secret Sir H. STRACEY adverted to the necessity of making
apprehension, and threatening to resign if he was mar- some provision for the defence of the roadsteads of Great
dered ? Yarmouth, and moved that Great Yarmouth should be
Mr. LAYARD could give no other answer than that of included among the great commercial harbours of the
the other evening. It appeared that greatly exaggerated country.
statements had reached this country. For instance, he Mr. MASSEY ruled that the motion could not be put, as
never could believe that English officers were present at a it was virtually a motion for increasing the estimate.
late horrible massacre of rebels. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS said, in answer to the question of the
The house then went into committee on the
hon. member for Maidstone as to the excess in the expen•
ARMY ESTIMATES,
diture over the estimates for barracks, he could only give,
The first vote proposed was a sum of £956,365 for the as a general reply, that it unfortunately happened estimates
manufacturing departments, and for the manufacture of were not unfrequently inaccurate, and especially when these
warlike stores, to which an amendment was moved by estimates referred to buildings in which changes of inten-
aSir H. WILLOUGHBY, that the vote be reduced by the 1 tion often occurred, and consequently changes of plan ; but
sum of £2,000, being the amount of the salary at the dig- 1 he could assure his hon. friend there was no intention to
posel of the committee from the resignation of Sir William i deceive with regard to the barracks at Chelsea. As to the
Armstrong. If Sir William Armstrong had not resigned ! appropriation of Worley Barracks, they had been converted
he should have moved this reduction, because it was a into the Indian depot. As to the fortiflsations at Halifax
wise and reasonable one, and also with a view to call the and St. John's, they were rendered necessary by imperial
attention of the committee to the costly nature of these considerations. With reference to the vote for the Matte-
-1
establishments. The hon. member proceeded to show fius, he admitted he stated last year that no further vote
that during the last nine years the cost of the menu- would be required ; but he learned from Sir John Burgoyne
facturing establishments had increased from £15,500 to that the works were not completed, and he had accordingly
something like £30,000 a year. He moved this reduction to apply for £15,000 now, and would have to ask for a furs
also on the ground that it was expedient to limit the range, ther vote of £34,000. '
of these establishments, and go back to the expenditure of Mr, BAXTER complained of the practice of voting