The Sun.
London, England, 1830-11-13 00:00:00

ROUST Or COMMONS, FitirlAY, Nov. 12.

Tint Srgetert took tirfShair at. Three o'clock.
A greet ninolier of petition*, praying for the abolition
of Negro Slavery, were preeenkd by different l‘feinber*
from varioait parts of the country.
A petition was presented, complsioing of nn undue re.
tuns for the town of Wincheliice.

NEWSPAPEIt STAMPS.
Lortl IRIORPETI4 presented s petition:from the inha-
bitant'. of /11anchester, prey-Cog fur the atiolition, or coriki.
&treble. reduction of the Duty on Newspaper Stamps and
Dutiee. At present those stamps and duties constituted
two-thirds of the entire cost of the article in question.

The consequence awe, that it was monopolise) by a few
persons, who thereby acquired great power of misrepre-
iwntation. To reduce the duties would increase the Re-
venue, in consequence of the much greater number of
Newspapers that it would cause to be circulated ; and at
the earns time it would give great increased employment
to piper-makers,winters, and others. His Hon. Friend,
the Member for 'Dover, bad last Session intimated his in-

tention of making a motion on this subject. He begged
to ask him it he meant to make such a motion in the pre.
sent Session ? He owned that leS thought it would be
highly expedient to adept a proposition, which, while it
was calculated to increase the revenue, was also calculated
to ditrttse that sound political and religious knowledge,
Which was must essential to the maintenante bf good go-
vernment and social order.

Mr. P. THOMSON rtid, That it was decidedly his in-
tention to bring fortlrd the motion to which his Noble
Friend alinded, after Christmas.

DISTRESS.

Mr: BENETT presented a Delition from the inhabi-
tants of several parinbet lti Wiltshire, complaining of the
great distress 'ender which they were labouring, and which
they a'Aihuted principdly to the change in thh 'Currency,
thid praying to be relieved front talration. The Hon.
Member characterizo.d the petitioners as a mo,t loyal and
well-disposed set of people, and expressed his conviction,
that notwitKanding the temptation held out to them by
whst this taken place in another part of the kingdom) they
Would not only refrain from outrage, but Woula be most
active in repressing it.
On the motion for britiging up the petition,
Mr. R. GRANT wished to know what his Majtstyle
Government intended to do in the way of the remission of
tauation ? An idea had gone very generally abroad that it
was intended to repeal the duty oh sea•borne coals. He
begged to ask the Right Ron. Gentleman whether that
was in contempktion?
The MANUA:LOB of the EXCHEQUER olmetvca
that 'his Right lion. Friend had, the other 'evening, stated
the inconvenience that must always attend premature dis-
clothes of that natures lie Was sure, therefore, that his
Hon, Friend (the Member for Norwich) would not attri-
bute his declining to answer the question to any want of
courtesy.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY had hoped, after what had passed
last Session, that a remission would have been proposed of
the duty on sea-borne coal. Ile still hoped that the result
of the motion of the Hon. Member fur Limerick would
tend to the attainment of so desirable an object. He was
aware that this was not a time at which an extensive re-
mission of taxes could he expects d, end, therefiwe, that
hopes ought not to be held out which could not be rea-
liztd. It was his film conviction, however, that a great
advantage would cis° from remitting the taxes which
pressed on industry, such as the duties on sea-borne coals,
soap, candles, the house and window tax, and putting on a
tax which would apply to the richer classes.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY, judging from the report
of the Committee, was of opinion thot a repeal of the
Coal-Tax would be beneficial only to the great coal-owners.
From the monopoly enjoyed by these proprietors of mines
In the North, he did not think it probable the public would
gain any thing by a remission of the duty. The people
would be far more benefited by a repeal of some of the
Assessed Taxes.

Mr. DELI. (it was understood) declared that he did
not consider lion. Members had any right to interfere with
the coal.owners in the management of their own affairs.

Mr. lENNYSON defended the conduct of the coal-
owners, but agreed with the Hon. Baronet in thinking
that a reduction should be made in the assessed taxer.

Sir It. WILSON observed that he was prepared to sup-
port a property tax, if all practicable reduction in the as•
aessed taxes should prove insufficient to afford relief to the

GORDON protested against Hon. Members at his
side of the house encouraging Ministers to lay on a pro-
perty tax. Let that House take off the taxes first, and
then. they would force Ministers to reduce the establish-
=anti. This in his mind was the proper course to pursue,
anti not the reverse, as bad been maintained by Hon.Mem-
hers. He contended that the House ought to interfere in
the arrangements of the great coal•owners to promote the
public good.
General GASCOYNE asked if it were the intention of
Government to re•appoint the China Trade Committees?
Sir It. PEEL said that the best mode of answering that
question was to give notice that on Monday next he would
move for the re-appointment of that Committee.
Mr. BENETT, before bringing up the petition, ob•
s.-reed that all taxes affecting production and industry
should he removed in the, fist instance. He declined
saying anything respecting a property-tax.—The petition
wag then laid on the table.
ELECTION PETITION.

The Oxford Election petition was ordered to be taken
into consideration on the 4th of January.

ENGLISH PENSION LIST.

Mr. GORDON aeketi the Right Hon. Oentletnsn, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it was hie intention, pre.
vious to entering upon the discussion respecting the Civil
Lief, to lay before the House the details of the English
Pension List ?

_
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
Ilan. Friend must be ►►ware that the details of the English
Pension Lint never were given.

lUr. GOLIDON replied, that as his Right lion. Friend
had, upon the present occasion, given many papers which
were never given before, such as•papere referring to the
&Welt Establishment ; and cons►dering the declaration
made by Oavernmenr, that they intended to lay all infor-
mation before the House, he trusted the details of this list
would not be withheld. •

Mr. HUME begged to remind the Right lion. Gentle-
man, that when he made a similar demand in 1828, it
tvas ONeeted to upon the grownd that the details could
not be brought forward until there was a new settlement
of the Civil List. He did not think a single shrilling
shOuld be voted until all the information that might be re-
quired war laid before the House,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose and
said :-16 1 rise, Sir, in penitence of notice which I have
given, to recommend to the House to fulfil the assurances
which it has given to his Majesty, in its Address
to the Throne, that it would provide all that
may be requisite for the support of the civil Go-
vernment and the dignity of the Crown. lf, Sir, there
ever was an occasion upon which a proposition of this
nature was submitted to the House of Commons, attended
with circumstances that might dispense with any thing of
recemmendstion on the part of the individual moving ir,
I am sure that this is the oecasion. There is no one whom
now address, I am satisfied there is no one in the country,
who will not come forward to state their wish to do all that is
necessary to promote the comfort and dignity of the Crown.
The people are at all times attached to the monarchy, and
anxious to provide, not only what may be necessary for its
proper support, hut even to maintain its accurtumed spies-
dour, and they take satisfaction in the splendour and dignity
of the Crown ; but on the present occasion there is an added '
feeling of affection which animates all in the country,
and assures me of the unanimous feeling of the perstele
going along with me in making that provision for the Crown
which it r, quires. In making this statement I do not protect
myself against that scrutiny of the proposition which may
be submitted to the House, and whieti it may be its duty..
On the contrary I am prepared to meet that examination in
its strictest form; and I trust, that although objections
may perhaps be taken—objections on the one hand
that I may not be rivaling with sufficient liberality ; on
the other of not sufficiently regarding economy, yet I feel
That I sm steering that middle course between the
two extremes of parsimony and profusion, which will
gain the approbation of all reflecting minds I think,
therefore, I may submit the proposition without doubt
that the House will approve it. Sir, in making
the proposition of this grant fur the public service to the
House, I stand, in circumstances quite different from those
who have attended the proposition of any former measure of
the kind—circumstances in themselves creditable to the
country and to Parliament—honourable to the cha-
meter of the King Ivhose loss we have bad so lately
to deplore, end also exciting in the highest degree
stir respect for the Kiug so recently seated on the Throne, ,
and fir whose dignity we are now called upon to provide.
The first of these circumstances to which I would call at.
tendon le, my having to stand in the situation of
making a proposition of this kind to the House, and of
being able at the same time to state that during the reign
which leas elapsed there has been no period at which the
Monarch has hurl to call on Parliament to provide for the
debts of the Civil List. Sir, this is the first occasion since
the inititution of a Civil List in Which it has been possible
at the close of a reign to call on Parliament to
recollect there had been no debt incurred since the period
at which Parliament last made the arrangement. If Hon.
Gentlemen will refer to documenta accessible to every one,
they will find I am justified in the assertion I make—they
will find that in the reign of Queen Anne the House was
nailed upon to discharge a debt to the amount of 500,0001.
They will find that in George the Pierer time the sum
discharged by Parliament was one million. In George
this Second's time the sum of needy half a million was
diseharged by the House, and on account of the debts in-
curred on the Civil List, which had been created ht
dm reign of George extending over so long a
period anti under circumstances so peculiar to that

reign the whole sum amounted to something between
three and four millions of money. I repeat again,
that I do think I stand before the House in a pecu-
liar and fortunate situation, in being able to congratu-
late Hon. Members that a reign has now closed, during
which there lies not been upon the Civil List granted
by Parliament any debt incurred. I say this is
honourable to the Parliament by whom the original ar-
rangement was made--it is creditable to them that they
'tamed so accurate a staternent of what might be
necessary to maintain the dignity of the Crown, that
it became poll.tible for the Monarch to confine the
expenditure within the sum so prescribed. But they
leave further to congratulate themselves that it was not
only owing to the extent of the grant, for thdugti the ex •
tent of the grant was considered slacient, nevertheless,
without a proper 'fellation it could net have been adequate.
ParliaMent, therefore, which laid down these regulations
for the Civil List, by which his late Majesty was enabled
to prevent incurring any debt, are entitled to the gratitude
of all those regulations *bin have led to the effect I have
stated. NO Zan we omit upon this occasion to pay a due
tribitte of praise to his late Majesty in leaving se carefully
limited his expenditure--(hear, hear, and laughter)—l
say, in having so carefully limited his expenditure within
the sum which Parliament bad assigned him, and
having by this upportnnity availed himself of the
regulations which Parlament proposed at to avoid incut-
ring that debt which, in the case of his predecessors, since
the institution of the Civil List, has uniformly followed...—
(lleer, hear, hear, mixed with laughter.)—l say, Sr.' in
the next place there is another peculiarity attending the
proposition which I am now about to make to thp Home,
which, whatever may be the feeling of the Honourable
Member far Middlesex, upon the observations which I
have recently made, will, I am sure, nail forth the appro.
Nation and thanlosef the House. Westanel now in the situa-
tion of baying surrendered, by hia Majesty, a greater extent
of revenue—revenue to a larger amount, rind comprising
more heads flout has been at any former period
when a Civil List has been called for. Not

only does his Majesty surrender the heredi-
tary revenue, which was also surrendered by his
predecessor, amounting at the present moment to a sum of
not less than 800,0001. per annum, but his Ma-
jesty has also surrendered those casual revenues,
the droita of the Crown and Admiralty, the West
India duties, and those other casual revenues which
have beretefiare been left to the distribution, and under
the controul of the Crown. The value of these conces-
sions is sufficiently apparent from the papers on the table,
and it is not only as to the amount of this concession I
call upon the Home for its approbation, but it is be-
cause, if it were possible to suppose a case in
which the revenues of the Crown could be applied to
purposes which Parliament was net 4isposed to sanction,
there would be those very revenues which would,
without any doubt, be liable to suspicion and
objection—and in the surrender of them his Majesty has
not only met the wishes of his people, in wishing to reduce
expense, but obviated objections that might have arisen.
In the proposition which it will he my duty to make to
the House, it will be in the first place my object
to avoid the possibility and all probability of
incurring debt after the arrangements shall have been
once sanctioned by Parliament. I bold that the incur-
ring of debt after a Civil List shall have been established is
the most disadvantageous to the Crown, and also
the most unsatisfactory to the people. In the first place,
the very name of debt carries with it the idea of miscon-
duct in the quarter in which it arises._(Hear, he ar.
I do not say that in all cases in which debts have been in-
curred upon the Civil List, and brought before the House,
the imputation has been properly made—far from it ;

but this I hesitate not in saying, the very name of
debt carries with it an imputation on the conduct of the
party by whom it is made, and that it is not just
or proper in this House in making an arrange-
ment, to make it of such a nature as shall probably,
lead to the incurring of a debt, and casting that imputa-
tion on one branch of the Government which it is most de-
sirable to avoid. Sir, if there was an advantage in having
a permanent Civil List, which I admit, and which every
man who has considered the subject must admit, it is in
having once assigned to the Crown the income which
shall be found amply necessary for that service ; we are
not then under the necessity of investigating the pecuniary
transactions of the Sovereign, which though it maybe grati-
fying to some mind., is the most painful and unpleasant task
in which any honourable and feeling mind can be engaged.
I say, Sir, therefore, the House will act wisely in taking
their whole foundation upon this, that the Civil List
shall bean regulated for the time to come as to prevent the
possibility of the incurring any debt by the Crown. The
first point, then, that we shall have to decide will be
what shall be the amount of the Civil List, which
is absolutely necessary for this object. And, Sir,
having cases of this kind, it is far more safe to be
guided by the experience of the past, than to in-
dulge in calculations for the future. I shall
propose, therefore, to frame the new Civil List
rather with reference to past experience, than with
reference to any new calculation, 1 might have it in my
power to make, in the first instance, such changes
and alterations as the altered circumstances of the Crown

may render necessary, always, however, keeping in view
the necessity of limiting the expenditureuf the Crown to that
extent which Parliament may think prudent. Sir, if we
look to the papers on the table, we shell find in them
a statement of what was the full amount which
his late Majesty had derived from the country for the
purpose of Inviting the expanses of the Civil Li-t; and
shall, in the first instance, state them to the House, in
order that they may form a just comparison between
them, and what I shall ultimately propose for the new
list. By the Civil List Act which palmist) at the com-
mencement of the late reign, his Majesty received an
annual specific allowance of 850,000/. for Eng-
land, for Ireland, 207,0001. and by. an Act which
passed in the reign of his late
Majesty, so much
of the hereditary income of Scotland as he thought neces-
sary to apply to the civil service of that country—,that
amounted list year to 109,000/. It appears also, that in
addition to the hereditary allowance of Scotland,
Parliament thought it adviseable to leave those sums
which his present Majesty proposes to surrender ; and it
will he found that the annual average amount derived byhis
late Majesty amounted to somewhat more, than 326,000/.
In addition to this, to present to the House a fair compari-
son, I propose to add that which related to the diplomatic.
service, amounting during the last year to 220,0004
The total of these sums, when taken together,, will
amount to somewhere about 1,221,600/. That Num will
amount to the annual expenditure of the late reign for the
Civil List. Now, Sir, it is my intention to remove hem
the new list certain charger heretofore imposed upon it, so
which I shall advert at a future periOd. For the purposes
of comparison it is necessary that timee should be deducted
from the sums allowed to his late Majesty. Therefore, on
account of them, I take off 160,000/. to answer fir
charges which will not be made in the new Civil List.
This will leave in round numbers about 1,056,000/. But
now, Sir, as to my resolution, it will be not for grants
for the different parts of the kingdom, but for one general
grant for the whole kingdom,—(Hear, hear.) And on
the subsequent arrangement I shall assign classes, for the
purpose of presenting a clear view of the different heads
of expenditure. What I propose for the purposes of the
new Civil List is 070,000/.,' snaking a diffeeence.between
the sum' now granted and that allowed to his late'Majesty
of 80,0001.---(Cheers from the Opposition.). Let not
the Hon. Member who cheers suppose that this is the only
saving and economy which will be Effected ; and if he will
listen to me a little longer, I will satisfy him that it is fat
from being the amount of saving and econonay'which we
propose to submit to the notice of the House, In the
first place there would be a saving to the State of 88,500/.
a year, which was paid to his Majesty when Duke of Cla-
rence. There will likewise be a saving' of 16,000/. upon
civil contingencies. This, then, will be en immediate
saving to the state of upwards of 139,000 L upon the
Civil List. But, Sir, besides, in the 'formation of
this Civil List, it is to be considered that eoneiderahle
payments are made on pensions, which, though it
it not possible to get rid of immediately, will yet
frill with the lives of those who now, enjoy them ; and
that there are officers, for whom although we continue
to provide, yet it is not our intention that their places,
when once vacant, should be againsuispliedonAlentodi,,
from reductions of this nature previously
end
others lately agreed upon, we have a saving in prospective
amounting to 13,0191. In the next place, the kith pen-
sion list will be reduced from 50,000/.. to 40,000/ per
anutun ;making altogether, when theele reduetions. shall
come into effect, a pecuniary saving of 161,000/. But,
Sir, as I said before, this sum dotes not present a fair pic-
ture of the economy we propose to apply to the Civil
List. All mess, Sir, must be aware that there are ez-
pences incident to the situation of his crescent Majesty
from which his predecessor was free. The Aovereien,
in
the present ow, is blessed with 4 Royal Cosoort, who
shares the affeetion and respect of the people with iris
Most Gracious Majesty. And, Sir, I an, sate the House
would not feel it proper to diminish the amount of the
allowance which, for a coneiderabletiglipdes._4(nha4ria)ef
invariably granted to the Queens of it nt
In the reigns of George 11. and George ill. 50,000/. a
year was allowed the Queen for the maintenance of her
household, and I can see no remelt why we should for a
moment hesitate to assign to her present Majesty the same

allowance which the previous Queens,, of England unitforay received. Nor, Sir, is the expenditure of the
Queen limited to her dowry. It is obvious that tie
King, like every other individual, must, when mar-
ried,
add to his expences in every branch of his esta-
blishment. And it the House is disposed to feel sur-
prise that we have not announced a greater reduction in
the Civil List, I beg theM to consider the different
circumstances under which the two Monarchs are placed,
and to take into account the expences of the Queen, not
only for her household, but also to tentembet the diffe-
renee created by her prowtice in the general establishment,
a difference tehich, 'by reference tai calculations made on 1
former occasions, lam sure I do nbt over-estimate in nam-
ing as an additional eipenbe equal to the allowance for her
household and the maintenance of her dignity, The
970,0001, therefore, I have proposed, includes 100,000/.
for the expenditure occasioned by the presence of her
Majesty. There is also another breach of expenditure,
which formerly was thrown on the public, but from which
they are now free. On the death of George 111., in
conformity whit the previous practice of making a pro.
vision by way of compensation for the servants of the pre-
ceding Monarch, a pruvislon was made for the servants,
and this not upon theCiVidList of his successtir,bUt en the
Consolidated Fund: Twenty-one thousand pounds was
charged upon the Consolidated Fund t•i pay a compensa-
tion to the officers in the household of George 111. ; and
19,000/. upon the death of Queen Cloo•lotte was charged
upon the Consolidated Fund for a similar purpose, making
altogether a charge upon the public of 40,0001,, which
the country thought it proper, and expedient, and honour-
alile to take upon itself. On the present occasion, how-
ever, his Majesty takes the whole compensation to the
servants of the late King upon himself.—(Cherrs.)—
His Majesty has been graciously pleased to adopt into
his own service, as far as possible, all the servants
of his predecessor—that is to say, all who were capalde
of performing the duties of their station ; and, there-
fore, lie has considerably reduced the amount of
compensation for which it is necessary to provide.
Hut, Sir, notwithstanding this reduction, there is a
charge of between 4 and 5,000/. remaining which his
blaj:sty will himself provide for, and thus relieve the pub-
lic flout a charge imposed upon them in all former reigns,
and which in the last amounted to 40,000/. In calcu-
lating, therefore, the economy applied to the Civil Lint
we must not forget, Sir, these two last circumstances--I
mean the whole 'provision for the expenditure occasioned
by the Queen, and the compensation to the servants of the
late King, for whom it is indiopensible to provide. Such,
Sir, being the saving we propose to effect by our arrange-
ment, I shall now advert to that arrangement under which
we propose the new Civil List. I know, Sir, that on this
point there is a great variety of opinions, and I remernh r
that a Noble Lord opposite, early in the opening of the
Session, expressed a hope that the Civil List now to he
presented to the public would be confined merely to the
personal expellees of the Monarch. I, however, after much
deliberation, and after weighing maturely all matters con-
nected with the question, must say, that it appears to me
it is not expedient to separate the ;nitrate and personal ex-
pences of the Monarch from those incurred in his capacity
of Chief of the Government of the State. First, it is
difficult to draw the precise line between .the charges in•
curred by the Monarch in his individual capacity, and
those incurred in his public capacity as the person ad•
ministering the Government of the country ; and, if it
were possible, I do not see that it would he advisable
io as to separate them, as long as the Civil List could be
regulated in such manner as to present a fair, full, and
distinct view of the expenditure. Therefore, Sir, I say I
cannot see the particular object of separating these two
branches of the Civil List. Ido not therefore propose to
withdraw from the Civil List all those charges which have
hitherto been considered as belonging to the bead of the
civil expenditure. I have been anxious to avoid one of

tl,e closes of objections now applicable to the Civil List,
namely—that 'which relates to the difficulty of finding the
amount of remuneration given to civil officers whose sa-

larks are paid partly out of the Civil List and partly from
other quarters. I shall, therefore, endeavour to remove
from it those salaries which have have been chiefly paid
from other quarters, and the' diffrence of which only has
been paid from the Civil List : so that by the plan which
I now propose to adopt the salary of ever) particular offi-
cer wiz be made to appear in each of the particular funds
from which it is chiefly paid. Where the larger portion
of the salary is paid out of the Civil List I have annexed to
it those smaller portions which are paid from other funds,
so that those who may wish to ice what is the amount of
any particular salary can see. it at once, by reference to the
Civil List expenditure, without being obliged to have re-
course to more than one set of papers for information. I
also think the present mode of making deductions from
several payments, with a view to form particular funds, to
he vet), inconvenient : there is something not very easy to
apprehend in the payment, on the one hand, to a particular
officer of a very considerable salary, and, on the other,
in taking from that officer, at the time of making the pay-
ment, a considerable sum to be applied to future purposes.
I propose, therefore, that all charges and deductions from
all salaries shall be omitted on the statement, and that the
salaries shall be stated at the precise amount, so that the
Civil List shall shew to tha puldie what is the actual
amount applicable to the particular services to which the
several payments are math. I have stated that I prop' se to
transfer to the Civil List the payment of thoseselaries the
larger portion of which is now chargeable on that branch
of the expenditure; and Lahti propose to transfer to other
funds those salaries only, small portions of which are now
paid out of the Civil Lust. The first of the latter class is
the salaries of the Judges. But a small portion of these
salaries is now paid from the Civil List, the larger portion.
h,ing derivable from the Consolidated Fund. These
salaries I therefore propose to transfer entirely to the
Consolidated Fund ; and if there was any choice front
which fund those salaries should be paid, I should think

that it would be freelt from objection that the emotu•
ment‘ of these officers should be derived from a fund the

least liable to the controul of the Crown. I propose the
same thing with reference to the Speaker of the House of
Commons-1 may say with reference to all the other pay-
ments of salaries standing on the same footing. In the
same way there are certain charges, of which by far the
greater amount is defrayed by entitle, votes of this House,
but some portion of which is also taken from the Civil List.
These I propose to withdraw entirely front the Civil List,
for the purpose of adding them to the several funds from
which the greater portion of their amount is now paid.
These three several sorts of payment' will amount to
166,000/., which I shall withdraw from the vote I intend
to ask as the vote for the Civil Pot. Such are the prin-
ciples of the arrangements which 1 shall submit to the
House as the foundation of the plan of the new Civil List ;
but perhaps the House will pardon me if I po a little snore
into detail on the several classes into which I propose the
Civil List shall he divided. These classes will be ten in
number. The first class will consist of his Majesty's Pr ivy
Purse and of her Majesty's establishment. This class, in-
stead of being 60,0001., as under the late King, will now
amount to 110,000!., a sum which was alvvays charged so
long ago as before the reign of George I. The second head
or class of expenditure is that of the salary of the peat
Officers of the Household—of the Household Establish-
nient--and of the officers connected therewith. This makes
up a sum of about 140,646/. ; and that sum will comprise
*abides which before were to be found under other
heads. Among these are the Gentlemen Pensioners, and
certain Officers of CeiVmony, which appear to me better
placed here than elsewhere. Under this head there will
be observed some reduction of amount from that which was
stated for similar .charges in the former reign. With re.
spect to the Household itself, the third head of the expen-
diture, there will not be any actual reduction of expen-
diture-1 mean in the hills of the tradesmen who aupply
his Majesty. I know that the Hon. Member for Middle.
sex will say that there ought to be some reduction in that
respect, with regard to the present value of provisions.
acknowledge that there has been a decrease in the price of
and in all the necessary articles of life, since the
agreed to; but while I admit that to be'
tPlastrie7fCaliciivt°,inllgiLmisutswt was
st
the same time remind the lion. Member

that some increase was necessary on account of her Ma-
jesty. li have, therefore, in addition to the expenditure of
his hiJjesty, brought in, under this heed, that of the
Queen ; and I think that if the bills now paid are carefully
computed with those formerly charged, there will he found
to have been en actual reduction, although that reduction
is not at once apparent, on account of the cause of inereseed
expenditure to which I have already referred. The amount
of this 'class of expenditure will be 210,6001., nem which
exhibits an apparent increase on the former Civil List► but
which, in reality, is less, since the present estimate in•
eludes the expellee of messengers, and other items of the
Civil Department, which I have thought it more convenient
to place here, instead of letting them remain under other
heads of expenditure. The fourth clan consists of the
Royal Bounties, Charities, and Special Service Money,
and these come more nearly within what are properly called
the particular expenditure of the Crown. The amount
here is the same as before, 22,2601. The fifth dun con.
aists of the pensions on the Civil List, This item was
fixed by Mr. Burke at a sum of 94,000 f., but in the pre-
sent Civil List it will amount to no more than 74,2001,
the difference between the two being those eh.irges which
are deducted front the Civil List, and carried to other
heads of -expenditure, on the principle 1 hive already men.
tioned. The sixth eine comprises the expenses of Foreign
Missions and Atinidgre of State. I hare stated that in

weighing the diNerent arguments for excluding thecae
charges frottrthe Civil List of the Crown, my feelings have
preponderated in favour of retaining them under thin head
of expenditure, and I therefore present them to the House
as part of the expence of the Civil List ; and whatever
opinions may be entertained on this point, I have no
doubt that with respect to the amount required for this
head of. expenditure, the House will be satisfied with
the sum which is now proposed for the payment of this
particular service. Under the former arrangements of
the Civil List, the third class, with which the sixth class
now corresponds, comprised not only the expense of Fo-
reign missions, but also the salaries of a portion of the
present Consular establishment ; and the House will also
recollect, that in addition to those who were then Minis-
ters at foreign Courts, with salaries, we have been latterly
called on for additional Ministers to the 'new States of
South America, and that these Ministers were, of course,
not provided for in the Civil List of 1820. This class of
public servants, with which we have now to deal, corn.
prises the representatives of the King in all parts of the
world, hut does not comprise the Consular establishments,
fir reasons which I will presently state. In the former
Sossioh of Parliament, when the question of diplomatic
expenditure Was under consideration, I stated that endea-
vours were making by the Noble Lord at the head of the
Foreign Department to bring the present expenditure within
the amount which was provided for 18 Foreign Ministers,
the expenditure for 25 Ministers, whose accession to our
diplomatic costs the altered circurnstanc:ar of Europe and'
America had rendered necessary. This class will show
that what I then stated to be under rons:deratien, has
been now done. In every foreign mission (with, at least,
only two exceptions) a great reduction of expense will
be found to have taken piece. The amount is now stated,
at 140,0004, which was 165,0001. in the preceding
year; and that year i.self exhibited a diminished expense,
as compared with the sums required for preceding years;
and when the detail of these estimates has been examined,
I think that the House will agree with me that the Go-
vernment has been disposed to bring down these charges
as low as was compatible with the rank of the individual
employed and the nature of the service he was engaged in.
If, in examining these items, persona will inform themselves
of what are the emoluments of other Ministers resident at
the gains Courts, they will find, though there are many
circumstances necessarily rendering our Ministers more
expensive than other Foreign Ministers at the same place,
and though Englishmen are more disposed to travel and
visit other countries than men of other nations, yet their
charges are not superior, nor, in some instances, even
equal to those of other Ambassadors. I have said that
there are two exceptions to this rule. The first of these is
Paris ; the other Petersburg!). They are stations where
great expenditure is required beyond that demanded at
any ether stations, so that we do not propose to withdraw
from those Ambassadors the emoluments which they now
enjoy. The reductions of which I have spoken cannot be
immediately accomplished, so that tire diminution of expen.
diture cannot come tato full operation till the Ist ofJanuary
in the ensuing year. The reduction of the salaries, how-
ever, is not the only economy which we have effected. It
will appear that the extraordinary charges, which are a
great source of diplomatic expenditure, are now about to
be brought within very narrow limits. Take the question
of outfit, for instance, which in former Civil Lists was
stated at 76,0001., and which is now estimated only at
47,000/. The expence of half outfit is also reduced from
50,0001. to 30,000/. On other charges there are like-
wise deductions, as in the cases of absence on account of
private affairs, and in the allowances for conveyance of
baggage, which are now reduced within very narrow
limits. The details of what I have stated will be found in
the papers I have laid on the tahle—papers which show
that we have, in fact, adopted that economy which this
House desired, and which the Government promised.
With respect to the payments to be made in future on ac-
count of the Consular Department, 1 propose that a con-
siderable alteration shall take place. A sum of 30,000/.
was formerly paid for the expences of the Consular esta-
blishment out of the Civil List, and 60,000/. from a vote
of Parliament : I propose that in future Parliament shall
provide all the expences of the Consular establishment try
an annual vote. One of 'h, re. sane for my proposing this
Is, the change in the regulation of that establishment that
may at any time take place. A change in eur diplomatic
regulations was recommended to Parliament not only by
merchants, but by Hon. Members, who had no especial
int rest in the recommendation, and who were actuated
by no feeling but a desire for the good of the country.:
That change led to a great increase of expenditure
in the Diplomatic Department, and it appeared to
the Noble Lord at the head of that Department, that
that expenditure should be brought within our more
limited means, and that it would he advisable to make
its amount an item of the charges that were annually
to be submitted to the vote of the Parliament. The
total amount of this class of civil expenditure is now
state I at 186,000/. fur the charges of Ministers on ser-
vice, and for the pensions of retired Ministers, including
all the Consul, formerly residing at foreign Courts, toge-
ther with those new Console now appointed to Greece and
South America. The seventh class consists of the small
charges on the hereditary revenues of the Crown, Which
always have been defrayed out of the Civil List, on which

humorous remarks here sometimes been made in Parlia-
ment, but which are still necessary to be maintained.—
These charges amounted to 13,7001. The eighth class re-
lates to the salaries of the gnat officers of state, who are
now paid out of the Civil List. Among these are the
Lord Chancellor, the Lord President of the Council, the
Lord Privy Seal, the Commissioners of the Treasury. and
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In this class is to be,
included that portion of the salaries of public officers, which
is now payable out of the Civil List of Irelmd and out of,
the Consolidated Fund, so that the effect of this arrange-
ment will be, that alt these salaries can at once he seen
from these papers. This class will form an item of 24,0001.
The ninth class is the Civil List of Ireland. That
Civil List amounted to 207,0001. in the reign of his
late Majesty; but it is now reduced to 125,0001., and
even part of that consists of charges for offices, the dura-
tion of which is limited to the lives of the present occu-
pants, and my plan embraces a proposal that will
effect a further reduction from 50,000/. to 40,0001...
With respect to the last class—the Civil List for Scot-
land—l do not think it will be found liable to any objec-
tions. , It chiefly consists of a provision for the heredi-
tary officers of State in that kingdom, fur the support
of the Universities there, and for the piyment of the pro.
lessors at those Universities—charges which have always ,
been borne by the Civil List of Scotland, and which areso
moderate in their amount, that I am confident, when they
come to be examined by the House, every one will be con.
viuced of our disposition to reduce the expenditure within
the narrowest 'Unita. This class amounts to a sum of'
51,0001. The Civil List, on the arrangement thus pro-
pied, will amount to 900,0004 of which ar, accurate es.
limits wilt be found in the papers I now laY on the table.
It is quite obv'oue, that in submitting an estimate of this
nature, it is impossible not to leave an opening for some
future contingency; and, adopting as a principle that
which was acted on in 1820, 1 shall propose to take a
vote for a sum above the estimate, in order to meet these
contingencies. I shall, however, only increase the vote
so far above the estimate as will he necessary to !weren't
till Civil List from debt. In proposing, therefore, the
sum of 970,0001. 1 shall propose a small excess, which is
,
nut more than necessary, because the Crown, having now
assersodered the droits of the Crown. and the droits
of the Admiralty, his withdrawn from itself the means
which were before under its disposition, and it is not
therefore unreasonable that a small additional vote sh..uld
beat state to
of
"Itch! L these ci°strimsgeunacti"bte lYabhliecht, in the
and which, during the late reign, rendered a provi-
sion of this sort absolutely necessary. I have thus
gone through the statement of the Civil List, which
I am now shoot to submit ',Au the approbation of the
House ; and I think I have shown th4l a considerable
saving has been effected under the new arrangement.
I may, perhaps, he permitted to state mare in detail what
that saving is. In the first place, there .is an immediate
saving of 188.900/., and then there is a contingent saving
of 1112,000/. ; and moreover it should be borne in mind,
that the Civil List has provided for charges which exceed,
by the sum of 100,0001., there which were to be defrayed
out of the Civil List of his former Majesty ; yet have *e
been able to reduce !to much at a time when, from psrticu-
lar circumstances, the Civil List is burdened with aildi-

tional charges to the amount of 100,0001. I cannot
doubt that the House will be satisfied with this statement.
I know that there is no disposition in this House, nor in
the country, to refuse what is nrcessary to maintain the
dignity arid splendour of the Crown.—(Hear, hear.)—l
know, indeed, that the proper splendour of the. Crown is
endeared to every clam of the people. If this is the" cafe,
whatever may be the Monarch on the throne, I am sure

'at that sentiment is more than ever•'' the sentiment of

the peopk of England, when they unite, as they have done,
in the strongest expression of attachment to their present
Sovereign, Who, whether, examined in his conduct, in the
relations of domestic life, or in his public character, is en-
deared to,the best atfLctions of the people.---(Hear, hear.)
The Right lion. Gentleman concluded by moving s reso-
lution, that the sum of 970,00 W. should be annually
payable out of the Consolidated Fund for the life of
present Majesty to support the expenses of his Civil Li.t.
On the question being put,
Lord ALTUORP said that be could nut vote oo this

ul inelt riYewta°wB,toolo'nuiltrsvfioileslii'tcr adaoad)
onykefetdavroliertctrplcobisiciieranainestiocutdr:ol,eo,l)wnistli
alywitiiietinii
theila,:it
04,:ta,ct titdie(wi:liixieliflbljip;ciiweclii,,,,h,
In no:
iti:R.fey.ci
10,ashtet,,,luolihilstet,inatie 3
rd,leo
o'ill'i'''oifilucridifto4,l.Ai'iii)igitvo...)itivti
initte,i_i{:tit
timueenttioofn twheitithoiguttli3Haln;nn.gGaentetrem°altun.Cvnltn°retunil onnrktilineg°44olt;
thisM
tt ptrolieP°s:dn u provisiontedetas r:,fr thehis plan.Civi 1 List of hi
it
s IwbojewitbeYm
ficoocrumtihinefumlirtsettillieve
present occasion. The subject into which the Right lion,
posed of. He did did not think it possible for that line,
or a Committee of the whole House, to go suflicienOton
r
Hon. Gentleman had gone, should be examined in 1 slk C A
thatrntn'impossible
Gentlemanelmite°'n
la
ne
st:' v
4:":t svilsoi eirpnabylotolatetinmtn'fe:hiMembersolxeaasrenecessary
si:bitnin
itthalthr
Yore' et.
ost:y+ teel:tlent could vasefdetailsitb(notnr;'were
uei
olant:clotolriweti't oe°ahetftiseza:lttyita°lßh°:tn'eti'onißish4vtiftilmYlgt'te' understandwot'iwhiche:°lll lion.:lieui ralra'
lintG telt
ih
el'i
el:Y),Gin throb °I
It:P 64;
dwttgtitinili 1 I'
1 d4'ct:
could come to no satisfactory result upon them. The
Right Hon. Gentleman'a plan, instendof being asimphltd
statement upon the demands of the Civil List, VA A
statement snore complicated than ever. The flight flow
Gentleman had added to the diffimity by his plan of bor-
rowing from one fund to pay another, for the peyote of
lessening or increasing, according to circumstances On
smount of the Cie it List- As far its he had been able tofu!.
low the plan of the Ri..ht Hon. Gendeniaii, ix had not llet,,a
able to approve of it in any degree at all. It would Waif'
(t(0111131..:1111frleel, e:etnnsawst,h.hillre),l s en,loGillthunsr :41.a
adtln.hoortsteutbrbouiliearnoilioxdinicweitnielininto
d consenttohnel
(tioi g thenit
y, votec (a
nin
ro
et the forma
wfo
stir: e ;find troh: :ht.
ircbuctii•as now proposed,.
Inprompoasnedy,ittehneta
011figehztpelnidnitni.orGwegleM411 bail
e
ld
the Crown.—(Hemr, hear.)—Wliat was the rottqatnee
colt:rid?
ilnVhayle ttlimidtettayrddtievelif the Civil List was voted in the
manner now proposed, the House would appear to ig
giving to the Crown 970,0001., when, in pt net °f I'6
hear.
)—llewhicli
ecr)eulladted to the t° At blomnes rit'dmr"beihrriesseloff.fr,ll
again, for matters which did not appertain to ml,is Maio!!
hearedd.;
11:e'c'r snoeL paidll he: htiomt hnfe:rld tiphciammceseitvreice scenesinlvrbPatt'
ar
du
filif;t I!
bile' n
ic
getuPiii:l°•-•.:
bassad_opirisan,ctoilsirke the charges for Cowerls, were not to ht
annually brought under the view of Parliament—(nelr'
rheaealrly)
•
man's plan, was, that if the change he propose! took pure,
wou l d arise fr o mthttiellOaeetni'llionelpelt iYnonlitvgion: let ;ulcer:ea:l'll tlieitg°llJtgat 1 ilttflievdn.riGeli trlbnlillti:le' trl,•l
time House woutml be in a great bt3te of confusion,
e0„g,..„
List
supplies of expenditure being taken from the
1,1","
nigstiL:tpn-rkiihestelethntrrnanttOlallmlde'nethunlbccelpCiaignevirlitielOityoLmffiliffiuraroSotes rn::::stattlybethenVewhntaelhLentamchunl:ablir asigds i'il:m;be:t:rh.ttieteirm" n'''01u:11.:1?:1111:411":1):1;saali•ri;naillailinti(reei
G
paid with other branches of the expenditarc, bnn ri-
Tate of that House. It appeared to him MO thebriOiriAn,
tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman
stead of giving a clear account of thriterrnmes
List for the present reign, continued all that. c
00), Of
which had previously existed, wi h the exception or,firma
a few trifling amendment'. As the vote on tbdisrlo the
was not to be taken to he would, n°l i Ilan.
ar
House further than by rrpeAtiog, that be con'.
prove of the plan now brought forward by the Ilisit "
Gentleman.
his seat. The estimate of the, Civil List for 1820 m
_lO,
the observations Hr.valltAionlisNoEf It ''Ndmimibreit:'Le‘ol ritlhievii!l:'aed ijno:ture'PP:.°lEdhl
had been referred to by the Right lion. Gentl'twof el
founded on that made in IS lb. The exPeoc!" jib).
country was then too large. It scented to bi 1 10(404
for tie House to None to a decision on the mid wing
opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, willftio, to
a further inquiry than it was now passible
make , sop
make. Ile thought that the House ought to .
.1 of
ration between the public and the private
venueexpen'lo..ibia,
his Alajesty, and not appear to grant hint A
1, ti:or,)
was, in fact, obe consumed by otherse---(11`!, boor
From the want of that separation In the PIO 7. of dot
Civil List+, much confusion had arisen, andlnnt7, . 0,,
extravagance which bad drew!) the country in
utterly
ilo.
in which it was n0w........(11ear, hear.) II ivg" , , keoem
posaible for any individual Member of ihetil"le,at 0, time
from the plan of the Right Hon. Gent lionsnt.
the ~..,,e,
expenditure of money for the tonirittaillictioie foevatuituianv he
tuent and for the public service. V t
1 cm;hi g like a fair rati'
had eluded to had tekve Phu'ee' j" toin,-, had the °Pr"
mate cou'd be made;
involved'
'I
e Ri lit lion. GO'
reason to feel the satisfaction which t 1 V. .. . „ 0
II" mod therefore, iII . 1
tlenaan seemed ro antimil lito. ... ,- I
to ray he foondsio
fuller inquiry was necessary, in older I bid] patil'3
tof the manner in w ~
.„..,
of a general imnprovernen Abboorp , the
accounts were laid before the Ilonse.
„to
~.0„,olo
might appear to eome a ttifrng matter, b .
s"l'ot `or
that it was really a mato r of imP6ll.'':!_, 'of the ro.ie
something was done to simplify the etatere new:
_to{ ey
accounts, the liouse would perrtually be
__l3.l;oholemmt
difficulties, in their attempt to effect that. °Doe boil
ettnni'.'in. °,,,f hsichpliitry:t them the }!:: itnheereisisnendsetbbeidconwf;
which time country expected mat their liailne*,_e isore thi
they would proceed with caution, and rego,n_olises
Government time appointtnent of A Cdtlfillittee., Wil'ionigh
into the details of the statement just snide"' Y . ,
witltc°t
lion. Gentleman.
expressing 3fr. liUbALEgreocauthirnrgottaltetnt ti,itiiisedsitleutranli::l.ot
IPo.4,:SiidecliFl
Right Hon. Gentleman. He confcroeti th3be 10041
he bad heard had much disappointed biobieh'en ilmtylleirai
would disappoint the whole country. 11 .he imoljot .7,
the gracious declaration of his Illsjefty on `.. shop' the'
the country. lie submitted that the House not" art .mu tte-
.• • ►to re.
respect for it, by calling on the bleatater.
...deed/ f.,1,
cordanee with that declaration. Ile war
to
son i 0...:
pared to do all that was necessary to prom'
~,`.'iwvn.,
of his Maj-sty, and to uphold the dignity ei l'!7 t rhos the
man had taken the course they
present state of the country would alloy, :;...uree of Id. ,
wllaenwisahs
b,praepaia
jrrestltytowditoh that
uttnogx,thte fullest il:'," to aet, I::
rality. He could not think that the Itiglit,_ opertmevfoi
on his own showing ; for he had rrferred te,,ted bitt:,
Committees as the ground on which be 011)0;jr. me vio:d
position. Reports on We subject lee" 11/1),,t hotsl,,
1812, and 1815.
state the subject of them, to the Howie• wnke oil li,e.,
lee
time gradually increasing charge of t"voidstmlem.rti.,
cause the price. of every necessary of lite, 8-
to "".
sutOCtiihil eeoentyuolt)ifedaolefpflize'rterhdie:;aiiit'clejaai trkuuethsetdrwee'wto:flbee4ttduhWdget th°lllUanoCtiefdrrei:ell°CreeeSll4bl7llr:Acvvi I It
Aidt,:rillrilrttl 14b11,11:11814t
1,1 fr;:'ladi
v)::aril Colerftflii:i'Pll:6:6sr":4ll_
...11:10:
lion of this fact, and then &elated thst %he ion!:
mt
charge of the expenditure was OCCAAjOrdi 10101113 i Owl,
of price of every thing in the canal'. ir ow to nth,
pected from the Right Hon. Gendeamon : , 0,s4;11 ,
in which the necessary articles of liic 1103setleseinjr....
att
mpl
ol ri!ei*.c:c
itda
Because'a: nt instead:t
i it4h: lunf -ie.
his
il i
ari
thatt:il:hea6 alf:betPidbyxrauetpt bb'icei I:
inite,etbidxrrei igPxtvuelP ela formationa: gee expenditure
gdnltil
t:rli:l:l,°PtB.l.l°°::.:".dril.
,i'lbeibi ' '-i 'eel
cAlr; '1:
r gj:liirli idj
tniltUCl iCin:sr;.ert, err
i'}tlYl.lC-,n (ts
throeo.l lij:8
least of some peltry reductions WhY d'''' 1 .0 Copt
• ' i 00, le eeril" 1 1/41 °
e
sierra of his hereditary revenues ; but whee .01 tii, os,
that subject, he. ought to have stated what nit were 04
cessions made by William IV, al,ove those n'Ti. 1,011„,
Iv. ? The paper be al II
~._.r. __tune) Imthl in.. ,01,0,-. ,
listed of thirteen items, which Virilliamu Iv' Irv, ll'i;-
five up beyond those given op by Grorgiepoijoer'' ite
sterile might be found at page 180 of the • pred 1
.1° t,
Papers of last Session. The first item tc norete%:l
HOl,ro24l2:9tpsi:ro;tcr'tht.ilelmet.
6CDO
ti,ouo Wtn:n:4,
tAA:vniAliincirA:ltsfiliroafilYti:AidatoB ivispiltoPoliwi.i
whole of thou Lad already
amounted to 2t44!. ; the third c,onsisteml of the
Ail,
for the .
of the Hierarchy. of the West Indic. Aben't.,%hroillis et n
at any future period the expence of :',);,0001., 11
West ladies stoma amount to less than
spl'i'ce
rer,,,
these duties should exceed that sum, the 0: omit efill ;
be appropm iated to the I"ublie Accouuts, 1A0Y1°,,,,
Ix enbetrarnusfit de°oll-4:141.;tr—,4441:ti
in fact, there had been no concession, and 1"„ r,/, COP' ...
large man bad been taken from a portion att
.tiuo •0h,,1
that the kin; might grant pensinumm to 0110-Recti%4
he wished to favour. The next itallt "1", et yearl?°o
General of Gibraltar, the r•et receipts of ill iftipok,
only 1801.: this was a gift on the Pett.4l,ool4._l9ei
tmoble acd liberal, and though the itllll IVall.anon i, ft 4
elide was wry important. He had bad "c'',:lo i.jegiO'loK
time* to complain of the manlier in whicl't _,,,,rec# 1.14
taxes at Gibraltar. that l3 C might put ripe
ii,li
)eeret tie,
ilia pocket, and on au avenge of the lilt " vie cott.a „h,
a 01'.
sum might amount tap 9,0001. or mall*lo.6ol* to lemwot ..,or se
venue, or the Cro w n Mig h t *TOO t e". nersl ' ( ;01
nod the sum stated agaiost the ;Reetiver.
_lie 000;1(4 i
Wax in respect of Green Wax, was 41. r,ni,o,tor St I The,
Attorney of the King, 101 L ; tbe KirufeAl`ltee, taim4f.
said the Conuoiesionets of the APO 01 '

Auditor of the Laird Ilevenite of England, ; the same
of Wales, 751. ; the prince of Spice, arising from the
'mediae of the Moluvea Islands, 302/. ; Inspector of Finer
Pad Penalties, 861/. ; together with other items, amnia-
ing hot year in the mm hale (as appeared by the Parlia-
mentary Paper laid upon the table pursuant to the Act. 1,
Ceo. IV.) to only :21 0001. Let every Member bear in
mind that 24,000/, was the whole sum relinquiabed under
this heal, exclusive of the Revenues derived from Scot-
laud. Ile (Mr. Home) therefore did not think, as far as
regarded atnount, that his Majesty was entitled to any
great 'credit for what lie had conceded ; in principle, how-
ever, it was of itmteuse importance that the King should
digest himself of the power of interfering with thole
dill; rent departments, small as they were, and that it should
afford an opportunity of chatring the public accounts, that
they might be laid before Parliament in a shape at once
simple and intelli4ible. There he thought that the
King had been well advised, and that much good
might be the result. No individual in this or in any
' former Parliament had regretted more deeply than he
had done the complex manner. in which the various
items included is the Civil List had been stated. That
Civil List hid beets the means of suppor tine a large Arie-
tueraticel body—the odium of which the King svas oh-
to !rear; he hul been made to keel) up establishments
iu na testy connected Stith his household, and in no way
• eontriliatihg to his personal comfort or to his regal dig-
• hitys and merely for the maintenance of an Ariatocratical
interest. He held in his hand the Act of 1 Geo. 1 V., in
which the payments out of the Civil List were separated
lobo eight divisions, and the House would see, when Pro-
, erly examined, how small a portion actually belonged to
his Majesty's household. He (Mr. Hume) allowed of the
• hot Close, amounting to two hundred and ten thousand
pounds; but what had the second class to do with the
gni4.lo,thal, consisting, as it did, of payments to the
speaker of the House of Commons—to the Judges of the
King'rt Court—to the Barons of the Exchequer, and to
Justiees of Wales, amounting to 82,000/. ? These
were onennnected with the comfort of the King and the
, dignity of the Crown, and ought to be voted by Parlia-
meet. The third class related to Ministers at Foreign
Courts, and what bid they to do with his Majesty's homes
? Only this-.-.that it' there were by chance any over-
ples....any sum not required, Ministers toek grind care that
it should he applied in some way or either. Why did he
Ray so ? Because by I Gar. IV., any suits not eppro.
printed out of the 2013,0001. there set apart, was to be re-
. turned to the Exchequer. Mr. Canning, indeed in three
years, had taw) great credit to the Government for return-
fug to the Exchequer two sum, one of 7,000/.;and the
other of 13,000/., under this cl,ruse, but his successors bad
• not effected a saving even to that extent. The fourth class in
the Act was a most important branch, including the Lord
Steward
department, and those of Lord Chamberlain,
the Master of the Robes, the Surveyor of the Works, tic.
. The sum expended for these officers in 1820 was 215,000/,
and in the last year it was 221,000/. Heiler Mr. Burke's
11311 of 1786, the whale amount eo appropriated was
147•°001., and to that scale we ought uow to return.
' The fifth clash was that of tradeareen's balls, which un-
pleationably belonged to the Royal Household. One of
the great abuses of the Civil I.ist was, that the King
41"I'l have the power to give away two or three hundred
11"antand pounde in pensions; the public, indeed, provided
the money ; ninety thousand pounds for one class of pen-
-14'11",) fifty thousand pounde for another, and thirty-eight
thousand pounds for a
(hitt! ; and lie asked whether the
e (entry was in e condition to pay such enormous sums
for such purposes ? Ile was roost anxious to lighten the
public 11", "lens) arid he hoped that, if a Committee were
-remntert, it would not fail to inquire into the pensions
tranted his late Alsjestv. While distress and 'dares-
ion stared the people in the face was not the time to
continue the dead weight of useless pensioners. Not one
I" to in twenty of them deserved such a reward,
whirl) was conferred only from favour and affection.
Henceforwerd the Crown unglue not to have the
Pl'wer of granting a (tingle pension, excepting out
cf the savings of the Privy Purse. When the public
141'l the money, the public ought to be satisfied that it was
P!°PerlY applied. What was the result of an caantina•
' of the present Pension List? That Peers and Peer-
" Pear their sons, daughters, cousins, kith and kin, who
Paid for
Parliamentary influence, were extravagantly
ea"' for doing nothing. The time was come when there
Must be as end of that system; a cheap Government was
hi ow wanted--relief fir the people, by cutting off all need-
"Penscs. At least it was clear that the pensions
ne Irged on the Civil List had no connexion with the
legal Household. The neat claws in the Act 1 Geo. IV.,
itteludetl the Lord President of the Council, the Constable
cf Dover Castle, the Mager of the Hawks, the Chief Jullice ..:
of Irelandm &c. How were these offices part of the
--Tat household ? What did the petitions with which
11.• table was crowded pray ? Not that the King should
'l4eprived of a aingle comfort—a single luxury, or of
Pay thing necessary to support the dignity of the Crown.
riSy only besought the House to poi an end to.all mane-
te'sary expences ; anti upon this point he wished to know
'thy the Constable of Dover Castle was to have 4,000/. a
year Out of the Civil List ?
The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHEQUER said,
settees the table, that that office had been abolished some
)'ears ago.
Mr. 11 UslE—That may be ; but I only know that I
and the item among the payments of last year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under-
-e°4 to add, that the. office bad been abolished pro-
*Pretively.
„ Mr. HUME—What, then, will the Right Hon. Gen•
ueman say to the office of Master of the Hawks ? Who
b haWks now? I know not, but believe that no man,
-44 sIIY Wiliness to keep them. When the poor of the
-ea
are starving, is it a time for giving a pension
ate lbe Muter of the Hawks? In addition to this,
It 4 list as !Mg a a tailor's bill, of pensions
altogether unnecessary, and which, of course, ought
Iha abolished. I submit, therefore, that all these
Instead of being glossed over by the Chancellor of
;-lehetmer, ought to be !admitted to the teat of a
C.—mitt". It is question whether the nation can
1" t() pay some eaxpenses of the kind that appear even
ttbenne''''l Ye We have- heard declarations..-nay, velars of
•"`"Y--and what 'interpretation can be put upon that
tif the King's most gracious Sprenhe
but that he
every practicable retrenchment to be made. If
alintaters would but give his Majesty wholesome at-
ilt.; there was no Man in the kingdem more ready to fo
tir now arrive at the seventh class—the salaries of
(iortunissionere of the Treasury and the Chancellor of
"he Exchequer. I wish the just rubrics of all useful
hlic Wyatt. to 110 -aid;
p but is there any reason why
yhould be put upon the Civil List? National ex-
:Jill' ought to be paid out of the national purse. In the
I !hti'itl:ba—oceasional payments...the greater number
it, atelvputably to come before the House of Commons.
state one or two of them. Here I find no lass
vilttao.!o,ooo/. a year for what is called " home secret ser•
gen: ,i,449erldent of the 50,000/. paid for secret service
te„4ll"Y. • Then we come to " special service and royal
ekti)atY ' but I apprehend that the King's liberality ought
„_
.e limited by his means. If those means are insufficient,
ct'la tire object be a good one, let his Majesty come to Par-
:it:cut, and he will not be sparingly dealt with. Wkat con-
,'
.ion, then, do I come to? This:—Tlutt the only items
rMr. Burke'e Bill of 1786, and the only items at the
.eut moment, that ought to be charged upon the Civil
Ate die tirtti fourth, and fifth classes, via. ;--The
tte'e.r Puree for the King and Queen ; the establishment of
ii'',.hE4ousehold, and the tredestnen's bills for that este..
fr,/ta.!!itents amounting to 291,000/. ; or, including 50,000/.
Queen, to 349,0001. Last year, the charge under
tfise these three heads Wax the following :—For the Privy
olt'er 60000/, ; for the Lord Chamberlain, and other
hirers of the Householll,2l6,oool. and for tradesmen's
41tie' )47,0001...making, in the whale, only 412,0001.
ee, '41.1,0,1,120,00U granted for the Civil List. Not
ito' !lulling more, I contend, is necessary for time comfint
oiatttiliony of the Crown. On that ground, I contend
k}vv "6' ILthie cannot prepared to vote the 970,0001.
,nrerptiretl, and that the Commons
ofEngland are bound
f!ttire, before they proceed to any decision upon the
teeV° If the suns necessary for the Royal Household
*l'arated as it ought to be. from other charges not
" eo " fro*, nnected with it, the King would be relieved
the odium under which be now laboure—that
r 5). hg furl SUM as nearly a million is annually necessary
that lle own, personal expences. (If this I am sure,
114)thing but an investigation before a Committee
wielltlahht this House to come to a vote, if it have any
t',ll" Perform its duty utyto the public. Let me remind
_net this is not the first, nor time sixth time, that Hon.
eisprstslillera mate me have contended for a ditnioution of the
nditure of the Crown • when the have so eon-,
t"did have been nnaa ;e, y • answer-'
thet et -aye rm.y met with this
Intrgain had been made at the commencement of the
tar' 4114 that the compact having been entered into, it
ttntrs ""t be broken. The proper time•for making reduc-
,o__ of the kind is at the commencement of a new reign
teaat time note arristed-e-a fresh bargain is now to be
'`ei 'and When the table groan* with petitions, and will
cd,Z; 'er groan limier o ten-fad weight, we are bound to
sot 4 tite fulled inforniatien before we. enter into a new
Itii• We aught not to iallew ourselves to be t tken
:
ks
ihthq_leitt..thre threebullition of the moment, and with
Imeiti .etienplicettion of accounts -iii rendere them utterly`
cl hope,' therefor et' ' that the Noble Lord
"thaelt) Will more ifut atioluMilt '
early day
Oa on

,

and if the papa at.. printed and delivered to-morrow, 1
do not s.ye how we c theake them into consideration before
Wednesday er Thursday. Without previous inquiry we
cannot be prepared to say what sum ought or ought not
to he granted, and without that inquiry we shall not do
our duty to our constituents. At all events, I protes•
against the arrangement propoeed—it is uncalled for and
complicated, and will be received with disappointment, if
net with indignation, by the people.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM—I cannot pretend to say that I
have yet formed a decided opinion upon the great question
before the House, but I am inclined to agree with my
Noble Friend near me (Lord Althorp), that even alter the
promised papers are in our hands further information will
be necessary. The subject is of the utmost importance in
itself, and in connection with others—in its constitutional
tetations, and, above all, on account of the interest it
excites among our constituents. Until we have full know-
ledge, we ought nut to proceed to anything like a final ad-
judication : I therefore ant disposed to support the pro-
position of my Noble Friend for a Commi!tee, and the rea-
son urged by my Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) is precisely the
ground on which I arrive at that conclusion. We are
meking an arraneement which is to last during' the life of
his Majesty, and however we may hereafter find that we
have been in the wrong, we may he told—end justly told
—that it is too late to re-open the contract the bargain
has been made, and until the demise of the Crown it
cannot be altered. As I confidently hope, and earnestly
pray, that that event may be long postponed, it be-
mimes mere and more our imperative duty not to enter,
as it were, blindfold into such a permanent arrange-
ment. The la't arrangement was trade, I believe, in
the year 1815 : the people are now more snake to
their own interests, but I am sorry to say that they have nut
the satne confidence either in the Executive Government
or in the Parliament which they evinced, at the date I
have nr ntionetl. I can only say, that I heartily concur
in the objections stated by my Noble Friend : the sum-
elifying of the accounts would be a vast improvement.
This has been frequently called a trading nation, and
every private individual keeps a check upon his expen-
diture and the dealings of his servants ; he keeps an ac-
curate and intelligible system of accounts, but every mer-
chant, without exception, does so or he would %eon find
his way into the Gazette. That in public affairs,
so infinitely snore important, a plain, rational, intelligible,
certain, and natural system, should be superseded by a
system unplain, irrational, .unintelligible, 'uncertain, and
not in the least natural, is indeed most extraordinary. The
exigency for simple accounts, where the even interest
upon the debt amounts to many millions, is ten-fold in-
creased. The amount does not one jot add to the difficulty,
for it is just as easy to keep a system of accounts where
millions as whet e units are concerned. This is a point
which every Leidy knows, even the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer.—(Hear, and laughter.) I own I had some diffi-
culty in following the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, and I should, perhaps, say, that it was my fault if I
did not find teat my difficulty was shared by my Hop.
Meads round me. It appears to me, that instead of taking
this occasion to simplify matters, he had added to their
confusion ; he has talked of subtraction and addition, and
added apparently only to subtract ; fur that novel course
—novel with any body else—l, for one, do not see the ab-
solute necessity. It seems to me to be most unreasonable,
absurd, and unfair, towards the King, that he should ap-
parently cost the isountly three or four times as much as
his actual expenditure. It is well known among us that
the King does not spend nearly the whole of the money
we are called upon to vote ; but out of doers it is generally
thought that he consume, every farthing of it, and com-
parisons are every day made between the cost of a King of
England and of a_ President of the United States. " See
(say those ignorant of matter* of finance of this kind) the
difference between a Republic and a Monarchy : the
President of the United States is paid 5,000/. or 6.0001.
a-year, and the King of England more than a million."
This comparison is exceedingly unjust and inaccurate;
but whose fault is it that it is emit ? Nor ought we to
he much surprised that the people fall into a trap which
year after year Ministers take so much pains to dig for
them.—(Hear, hear.) Milton preferred a Republic to a
monarchy, because, as he said, the mere trappings of a
monarchy would fit out a republic; and what course could
be more fit or natural for us to take than to separate the
trappings from the substance, and to take from the charge
of the Civil List the expenses of Foreign Ministers, and
many others that have no sort of connection with it? But
what is our course? We take a great deal of what isnot
trapping, and, by covering it with gloss anti slime, we
not only make it appear trapping, but we exaggerate it
beyond its proper dimensions. Such a proceeding is most
unfair to 'bilking at all times ; it is at all times bad policy,
but most especially bad in times like these. The King is
a popular and justly beloved Monarch ; but we endeavour
to make his people watch, maliciously watch him, and
draw odious and unjust comparisons. It is our fault, not
theirs : it is unjust and impolitic to the cause of limited
Monarchy, and the blindness and bleeders of Statesmen
are loading it with sins that do not befong to it. Another
word as to my disappointment, and the disappointment of
the country, regarding the surrenders and savings by the
Crown. First as to the last—the savings. It may be
my error, hut it seems to one that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer has made out the savings to be greater th In
they really are. When lie talks of 130,000/. or 140,0001.
let me ask him whether be deducts the expenses of his
Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence ? Of course we
there must save 31,0001. a year, for he cannot be King
and Duke of Clarence at the same time. We have just as
good right b deduct the allowances of the Dukes of Kent
and York, but whether theyhave been deducted I know not.
Do not let the Right Hon. Gentleman or any body else at-
tempt to mislead the people: it may succeed for 48 hours,
but no longer. Then as to the hereditiry revenues of
the Crown, I did hope, and I expressed my gratitude,
founded upon that hope, that the Duchy of Lancaster
would he included in the cession by his Majesty. I now
find that it is not included. The King's Speech turns out
to have been constructed on a plan much the reverse on
which other speeches have usually been made; they were
intended to be understood, but the object here seems to
have been to render it unintelligible. It talks of foreign
interference, and yet we have every day since been told
that it means no such thing.--( Hear, hear.) Another part
of it led me to think that the hereditary revenues of the
Duchy of Laucaeter were to be relinquished. This sense
seemed (repressed in the largest and most comprehensive
terms that could be employed, and it forme my excuse for
having formed unfounded expectations; " I place (said
the King, or he was made to say) without reserve at your
disposal my interest in the hereditary revenues, and in those
funds which may be derived from any droits of the Crown
or Admiralty, from the West India Duties, or for any ca-
sual revenues either in my Foreign Possessions or in the
United Kingdom." That is to say, " I surrender all my
revenues, casual or otherwise, at home or abroad ;" and
the expression was no wide and sweeping that I had no
doubt that the revenues of the Duchy:of Lancaster, aye, and
of Cornwall too, were included. No doubt I shall he
told by the Attorney-General, who was Attorney-General li
for the Duchy of Lancaster, and who is full of that jea-
lousy natural to a single Attorney-General, Touch more to
a double one—that the revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster
are not the hereditary revenues of the Crown.—(Some
Member cried, bear, hear.) That cheer comes from a
lawyer, I am sure.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member rose
in his place.) The Hon. Gentleman, I see, is a civilian ;
but his distinction shows that he would have been an orna-
ment to the profession.—(Hear, and laughter.) He means
to say, that his Majesty dots sot receive the revenues of
the Duchy of Lancaster as King, but as Duke; and that,
from ignorance or inadvertence, I have put a wrong con-
struction on the words, " I place without reserve, at your
disposal, my interest in the heretlitaty revenues" of the
Crown. But let us recollect that the King is Duke
both of Lancaster and of Cornavall ; and thus an igno-
rant man—not the Duke of Wellington—might be misled
by the expression I have quoted. If the framer of the
Speech really wished the people to understand him, be
has versus(' a very strange ceurso ; rind I would advise
him, in the interval of his puldic duties, to disport him-
self with a few gratmnstiral exercises. The fist page of
the first grammar he could take up would inform him,
that " the u e of speech is, to be understood by those Who
hear you." (Cheers and laughter.)—lf I had meant to
include the revenues of the duchy of Lancaster, I should
have used the very terms which it seems the author of
this grammatical contradiction employed with the inten-
tion of excluding it ; to give up the hereditary revenues of
the Crown from whatever source derived ; and is it not
the Duke of Lancaster that speaks as well as the King ?
His Majesty does not go down to Lancaster or Preston to
make one speech as the Duke of Lancaster, and return to
London to make another speech as King of Englund. The
diseinction is a mere quibble, and if not made by a lawyer,
give me leave to say it is worthy the ingenuity of the most
astute special pleader. The abandonment by the King,
in hie speech, waren abandonment of the whole without
reserve or exception. After what has pastier) to-night, I
do not say it was intended ; it is a blunder fn the King's
Speech—a blunder by the Minister—a blunder arising out
of sheer stupidity anti utter ignorance of the meaning of
language; there seems to have existed a total indifference
whether the Royal Address was or was not understood,
and whether it did or did not express the intention of the
high Personage by whom it was delivered. _(Hear, hear.)
Giving satisfaction to the people Was out of the question,
;and perhaps from the time of Charles 11. or James 11. to

the present hour there never was a Speech from the
Throne which produced in the country such a uniform and
..trong feeling of indignation. If me county Member dif.
(ers from me. he has only to rise and assert that his con-
stituents are well satisfied ; awl, no doubt next Monday
or Tuesday, he luny again rise, and again assert that his
constituents are also satisfied with the diminution of the
Civil List, and with the vast improvement in the simplifi-
cation of the accounts.—(Cheers.)—Give me I Ave to add
that this question is of infinite importance to the stability
the monarehy*to the character of the King, tnd to
the character of Parliament; and 1, therefore, bail with
satisfaction the notice given by my Noble Fri.nd (Lord AL
thorp), er Ky the Honourable Baronet, the Member for
Queen's County (Sir H. Parnell), to take the sense of the
House on the moderate, rational, and judicious course of
referring this subject to the investigation of a Set .et Com-
mittee —(Mach cheering.)

Sir It. PEEL next rose to address the Committee. As
he was comment:bag, Mr. Brougham appeared about to
leave his seat, and the Right Hon. Baronet observed, that
it was unusual fur an Nun. Member, who charged the
members of the Government with gross stupidity and
ignorance—it was unusual, to say the least, fir an Hon.
Member who did so to leave his place• when an answer
was about to be made to the charge.—(Hear, hear.)__
However, he should not call upon the Hon. and Learned
Member to remain merely for the purpose of bearing a
reply to the charge, but, as he in his turn was about to
charge the Hon. and Learned Member with gross igno-
rance, he did entreat the Hon. Gentleman to remain, in
order that he might not Make such a charge in the lime
and Learned Member's absence.(licar.)—The lion.
and Learned Gentleman said Ministers were chargeable
with gross ignorance,—with an absolute neglect of com-
mon grammatical construction, almost with an intention
to mislead in the terms put into his' Majesty's mouth,
because the King had said that he resigned his intermit in
his hereditary and casual revenues; thus, according to the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, earning a hope that the
revenue of the Duchy of Lsneaster would be relinquished,
and sggravating the feeling of disappointment all over the
country by a tardy expl ination to the contrary. The
Host. and Learned Gentleman sib!, that if it was intended
to reserve the revenue of the Duchy of Lancaster, with-
out exciting false hopes of a contrary proceeding, his Ma-
jesty ought to have said, " I, as King, telinquish icy in-
terest in my hereditary and casual revenues ;" and further,
that there ought to have been an explanation to the effect
that his Majesty did not mean to relinquish his intermit in
the revenues r r the Duchy of Lancaster. What had been
done ? what were the terms employed by ;former sove-
reigns in making a similar relinquishment to the present
on their coining to the throne? George IV. bad relin-
quished his iateiest in the hereditary revenues of the Crown
in like manner, but he did not give up his interest in the
revenue of the duchy of Lancaster. His late Majesty ex-
pressly referred to his hereditary revenues nev.rthelese.
What said the speech delivered by him on Lis accession?
" The first object to which your attention will he diverted
is the provision to be made for the support of the civil
government and of the honour and digaity of the Crown.
I leave entirely at your disposal my interest in the heredi-
tary revenues." And yet, in making this speech, his late
Majesty's interest in the duchy of Lancaster was not relin-
quished. Then it appeared it was not gross ignorance of
forms in Ministers to put a speech like the present in his
Majesty's mouth, et the Name time retaining for the Crown
the duchy of Lancaster, for a similar proceeding took
place at the accession of the late King, and wag uncensored.
Tke ignorance of the proper proceeding in such a case was
not its the conduct of Ministers, but in the comment and
inferences of the Hen. and Learned Gentlentau.—(Hear,
hear.)—George 111. resigned his hereditary revenues in like
terms, but toill held the Duchy of Lancaster. Thus it
appeared that his Majesty's Speech was in exact conformity
with that delivered by his two immediate predecessors in
this respect, where the same course had been pursued in
reference to the Duchy of Lancaster. Therefore lie con-
tended that Ministers were not justly chargeable with
goo; ignorance for using the same language as had been
previously adopted in a like case and with like results. So
much for hereditary revenue ; but, said tl.e Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, the casual revenue is likewise relict-.
quished ; now let us see what the casual revenue had to do
with the Duchy of Lancaster ;
Mr. BROUGHAM—That was not my argument 1
meant that the hereditary revenue and the casual revenue
included every thing.
Sir R. PEEL—I contend that they do not. It is mat.
ter of opinion as between me and the Hon. and Learned.
Gentleman, but the true test is to be found in Acts of
Parliament—the construction of the term must be taken
from acts of the Legislature,—and the let of George IV.
says, that " all the surplus of revenues of Gibraltar, attd
all other surplus or casual revenues in the United King-
dom, shall be laid before Parliament on the 25th of March
in each year ; but it was never thereby intended that the
revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster should be laid before
Parliament. Here, then, according to the construction
of an Act of Parliament, the Duchy of Lancaster was not
included among the casual revenues of the Crown, and it
appeared, front the Speeches of former Monarch., that the
term " hereditary revenue" did not apply to it.—(Several
sentence' of the Right Hon. Baronet's speech were lest at
this period, and subsequently, by an irruption of strangers
through the door usually reserved fur the entrance of re-
porters into the gallery.)—lle stould not at present
dis-
cuss the proposition of the Noble Lord opposite, for the
appointment of a Committee to investigate the subject of
the Civil List. This was not the °caption for doing so.
Howeverfihe might observe in pasesxinag,
examine
eaat
ect,hmenNtso,boler
Lntd had not said whether the proposal Committee was to
be one merely vested with authority to m
whether it was to be armed with the more extensive power
to send for persons, papers, and records. Yet the dis-
tinction, notwithstanding it bad been omitted by the
Noble Lord, was a material one, and the whole
speech of the Hon. Member for Middlesex showed that
he for one would not be satisfied unless the Committee
had full power to enter largely dud expeditiously
into every point; and this could not be effected without
authority to send for papers and examine persons. At
no period had a Cotnmittee been appointed with such ex-
tensive powers under similar circumstances; but he should
reserve till a future opportunity a statement of the grounds
of his opposition and objections to the appointment of
such a Committee. Suffice it to say, it would be neces-
sary to enter into details of the amount of every hill and
item of expenditure for the last ten years, in order to be
enabled to compare the expence of the present with pt.-
ceding periods. But if the House should think it neces-
sary to have a discussion, not only of the amount of the
whole charge of the Civil List, but of the policy of each
particular expenditure, he was of opinion it would he
pursuing a course not well calculated to uphold the wel-
fare and dignity of the monarchy.—(Hear.)—The Right
Hon. Baronet proceeded to observe that there was no in-
stance of the appointment of a Committee under circume
stance, anti with objects such as the present—no instance
(as well as the confusion in the gallery at the moment
permitted us to understand), unless where a debt having
been inclined Parliament was called upon to interfere.
Accounts being laid before the House, and a full rapine.
tient given of every item and charge, Parliament would be
as competent to form an opinion upon every point con-
nected with the Civil List, as it would be if a Committee
were appointed, limit d, like forma Committees, to an
examination of accounts.—(Heir.)—He thought that,
Ministers would hove been' fairly chargeable with an at-
tempt to throw the. responsibility of the Civil List upon
the House, if they had proceeded differently, and load
not adopted their present course. In laying the estimates
of the 'Civil List before Parliament, be trusted that the
Houle would think that his Majeety's Government bad
pursued a proper line of conduct...-(Hear.)-.With re-
ference to another point, he could not ere how the tic-
counts could have been simplified by transferring the
charge for diplomatic expenditure to the consolidated fund,
or by providing for it by a special vote. Any man who
looked into the subject would see that ti.e omission of
that charge in the Civil List would not teed to simplify
the accounts. Then, said the Hon. anti Learned Gentle-
man, "it is not fair to the monarchy nor to the sovereign
to introduce into the Civil Liet items of expenditure not
directly attaching to the, Crown, but essentially belonging
to the public serviee—and you will uphold the throne,
and produce general satisfaction, it those charges neces-
sary to maintain the personal dignity of the Sovereign
be separated front every other branch of expenditure with
which they are at present mixed up.—(Hear, hear, from
the Opposition side of the House.)—He (Sir Robert
Peel) thought that upon that point two opinions might
very well be entertained. The present was the arrange-
ment which had been long adopted; it had received the
assent of Mr. Fox, and wits approved of by Stateamen
deeply interested in the maintenance of the dignity of the
Crown, as well as in upholding popular rights..--(lleac,
hear.)—lt was never Mitre suggested that any necessity
existed to equate the Civil List according to the distinct
heads of expenditure. But it was now said, there may
be souse great popular mieunderetandiug on the subject"---
it was impossible fin. the House to &mike any arrangement
which it would nut be ;resale for artful and
inert to misrepresent. Leuk at the handbills at present
circulated, in one of which it was stated that the Marquis
of Bute was a pensioner upon the publ:e purse to the
amount of 60,009/. a-year, although the Noble Lord did
not receive a farthing of the public tueiney. Nevertheleet,
it had been sr repre,.ented to the people, and the item re'.

"'erred to was pitted at the head of others, which were, no
doubt, equaly unfounded, mid tic (Sir R. Peel) knew the,
great dissatisfaction had he. Is ',reduced by that and similar
statemen's, which were industriously circulated among
the lower el asses. But he again asked what arrangement
could be made by Parliament to ptevent artful men from
making, and ignorant and simple men from being gulled
and misled by, such unfounded representatione ? *What use
multi there be in taking the 400,000/. or 500,0004 which
Parliament was wilting to grant ti the Crown, and hold-
ing up to the palic view as the sum specifically and ex-
chtsis ely granted for the use of royalty ? This, to say the
very least of it, was a doubtful queetieei and it certainly
append to hint inexpedient to set upon the suggestion of
the Hon. and tetanned Member in this respect. As far as
public economy was concerned, it was On matter whether
the Civil List were divided as proposed, or treffeied to re-
main as it had hitherto stood.—(" !se, no," from the
Opposition.)—He repeated, the matter maths no difference
with regard to economy. But I e objected to a sum of
400,000/. being set apart as if devoted to the spells! com•
fort and convenience of his Majesty, when it wee no such
thing, the expenditure being for the public interest, not
for the personal comfort of the King, but with a view to
enable him, as the chief office of the State, to repreeetrt
the monarchy with credit, to maintain n tneotning side n
dour, connected not with his own personal comfort (which
must be often tact Meet, to the public crinvotiletice), but
with the dignity and welfare of the State.---(Hear, heer.)
—ln this view of the cave, the Lord Chamberlain and
Lord High Steward were not officers appointed for the
person tl comfort or convenience of the men irch but to
constitute a connecting link between the King and the
Aristocracy ; and the saute might be peel, generally, of
the offices and expenditure of the Household. Appertain,
ing to the State, it. Was fit that the Severeign should
he upheld in becoming dignity as the first officer of the
state, in order that he might be enahlid properly to main-
tain those intereste which were inseparably connected with
the preservation of the monarchy. Ile doubled whether
it would he expedient to separate and distinguish .the Civil
List in such a way as to hold out to the uninformed that
a particular given Rom was the exact amount which we
paid for a monarchy. After ell, this was principally a
question of feeling and supposed expediency, mid he did
n it think the present the best time to adopt the proposed
alteration. As every man of common intedigence was at
present aware that the Civil List embraced a vatiety of
charges for as various purposes, it would convey no new
information to such persons swig the change made, it
would dispel no delusion, nor afford any satisfaction to
them. Upon others the effect might be decidedly bad,
misrepresented as the facts would doubtless he by parties
who were at all times but too ready to avail themselves of
every opportunity to oppose the cause of order and good
government. On the whole, he thought he could perceive
the p osibility of great inconvenience from the change, and
was of opinion that any advantage to be derived from it
would nut counterbalance the evil to be apprehended in
the event of its adoption. These were important cmoi-
iteration's. However, he should not enter further into the
subject at preeent, but would reserve himself for future
discussions. If any gentleman proposed to appoint a com-
mittee upon the aulijsct as before, or insisted upon a wore
extensive and searching inquiry into the Civil List, with
a view to sever from it every item of expenditure not
directly connected with the personal service of the Crown,
he should be prepared to meet so important a question as
it ought to be met : hitt, till then, i.e preferred declining
to enter further into the discussion.
Mr. BROUGHAM returned his beet thanks to the
Right Hun. Baronet for having prevented him from leaving
the House before hearing the charge of gross ignorance
brought against him by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
That lie might be often, and pre h fps justly, charged with
gross ignorance, was only saying that he was sutject to
she common lot of humanity—of other lion. Members.
even of his Majesty's Ministers themselves—(Laughter)—
but that the Right Hon. Baronet had really kept him in
his seat to hear a charge of gross ignorance preferred
against himself, he doubted whether the House would (after
the speech of use Right Hen. Secretary) very readily be-
lieve: although that the Right Hon. Baronet had kept him
to hear a gross misrepresentation of what he bad said was
perfectly true, and therefore, and in that sense, he wireless
ignorant than he hail been before Le heard the Right Hon.
Genth outer speech, for he did not believe that any one could
hive so mis-stuted the words and argument of anoth r, ae
the Right Hon. . Baronet had done by him. It was most
true he had charged the framers of the King's speech
with ignorance or neglect of common grammafcal con-
struction, in putting into his Majesty's mouth worth ex-
pressive of one sentiment, at a time when another was
intender/ ; but he did not say (although the Right Hun.
Baronet so stated him to have said), " did ever any body
hear of any former King's speech so framed, when the re-
venue of the Duchy of Lancaster was to lie reserved ?"
If any gentleman bud heard him even aquae to any former
King's perch, he was willing to frVII
,etes the argument at
once. He never did. It WAS nit rnebt, then, for the
Right Hon. Baronet to quote him as if he bad said that the
S present _ __ewe.* WO not only incorrect in point of expecte-
*ion, but unwarranted by the termite of any former
Speech. Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman did so, and im-
mediately produeed two King's Speeches, to show that the
sense Mende: had been committed before.—(Hear, and
laughter.)—Now, he was not so deeply read in King's
Speeches as the Right Hon. Baronet ; still he must main-
t,in, as he did before, that the terms, " I place without
reserve, at your disposal, my interest in the hereditary
and casual revenue. of the Crown,". including according to
the ordinary meaning and construction of words, the re-
vermeil of the Duchy of Lancaster. But the Right Hon.
Secretary quoted a Speech of George IV., in which it
was sail (although the Duchy of Lancaster was, in fact,
reserved), " I leave entirely at your disposal my interest
in the hereditary revenues ;" but the expression "en-
tirely" was not so strong as the words " without reserve ;"
this, in passing. Ile would now stete to the Ginimittee
what it wee thut had misled him, a lawyer, as it had doubt-
less misled others who were not lawyers, but I iymen ; it
consisted simply in this—the introduction of the two little
words 44 without reserve." The late King, although he
placed must of the revenues of tire Crown at the disposal
of Parliament, reserved the Duchy of Lancaster, but here,
according to the Speech, there was to be " sin reserve ;"
it was therefore not unuatural for him and other Members
of the Hourte, and persons out of doors, to think that his
present Majesty had placed his revenues more extensively
at the disposal of Parliament than did him predecessors.
This was exactly what he had said, and what the Right
lion. Gentleman had taken such pains to show was the
result of his great ignorance on the subject, for former
Speeches front the Throne hail contained similar de-
clarations to that which it a ppeared he had so greatly
misunderstood. But how, be would ask, was the Speech
received on the first night of the Session ? Was it
receive! as former Speeches had been ? Was it
not, on the contrary, hailed with delight as an earnest
of the disposition °Phis Majesty to set the example of the
strictest economy ? Was not lie (Mr. Brougham) one of
else first to express his cordial gratitude for this most gra-
cious communioation of his entire and unreserved amen-
der of his hereditary revenues ? Had such a surrender
ever been made by the late King? Whatever might have
been his politic virtues, and no doubt they were many, he
would nut no dwell on them, as he did not wish to nay
any thing of past Sovereigns t the reign of the late King
was distinguished by many glorious events—it was itself
glorious; but whatever one might al of it, and of the
manta of the late Monarch, there were few who could im-
pute much to him sin the score of economy.—(Bear,
liver.)—But had any one, he would ask, on the first night
expreiored uuy opinion that such unreserved surrender had
been made before? Hal any Hon. Member, got up and
said to him when expressing hie gratitude on the occasion,
chit Ise WAS too theekfid—thet he was inclined to be too
grateful for small mercies ?—(Hear. hear. )—On the occa-
sion in question be had particularly pointed to !nil lion,
and Learned Friend, who was once the Attorney-General
for the Duchy ef Lancaster, and was now King's Attor-
TmneliGektieunie,anritual.hlpicirill
iltiswl4.4eannotnwedeoF,riiteennrdl
contended
breetrltlidthfealgierena?t
Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney.;
General, who had not spoken, there were dues Ministers
Iruig:unvildievt:htetyhr7viyetLouLaynneaidotemtciti:aollsitoneistateCr
ooltiainfa,niengtdcriilloet_ltucloittr,yhrino:afulfilyienhiefanEwudttx:cr:aelettedielimig:upam4e4nrana,tinoyitnohloier
cepted from the unreserved surrender of the hereditary
his
tonodoh
iobe ready with Your expression of grutitutles—do not notimbe
too thankftd for smell mercies; gratitude it a great virtue,
but it should be reserved for occasions when there was
something for which to be grateful."---( Hear, hear, and
laughter) _-No, not a word of this. There sat the
several lion. Membera to whom he had alluded, and not
one of them had ever ventured to let a word of the kind out 1
of the corner of his month.—(Hear, and a leugh.)—
WaS be not justified, Om, in thinking that he was
borreet, and in saying that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
come down that evening to dispel the just expectations
which the country had conceived of this Speech? '
would repeat, then, that there ought to be a Committee of
Inquiry into this aubject—not an examination of servants 1
or scullion', but an inquiry into the necessity of many
parts of this expenditure, In this, ho believed, he only
liarticipated in the sentiments of the Noble Lord (Althore),
end dos Right Hou Baronet the Member for Queen's
County ; but that some inquiry should be trade he thought

Wa .4601110 y eatential. As to the 'lleveption ef the hand,
'till respecting Lerd Bute, it was width% to this--end, in
the way in which the Right Hen. Gentlemen had alluded,
kilted hie cage but little ; for el ppowe. upon inquiry,-it
should turn out that-tin.. Noble Lord dill not receive,- as
pensions or persons! emoluments, the swiss that were there
set thrall to his name, lint that they were paid to him in
his cepaeity as Liter! Lieutenant of the county of Glamor-
gan would not that shine at once that the charge, as
against the Noble Lord, was ,Wholly unfounded? Anti
would it net also Anne the necessity of some uheration of
die system? He wax aware that a similar mode of es,
ranging the Civil •List. in come parts, had received the
ernction of many eminent men, but he was not. aware
that h had got that of Mr. Fox. This Was somewhat
new to Mei, ttd,he was the more surprised at this, consi-
dering that Mr. Vox Ve:ot lint 12. yews, old at the settlement -
of the Civil List, in the 'vigil ef Oeorge 111. ; anA, valu-
able toi Were the. opinions of that emint'nf man at all times,
he meld not think that he was much of a 'rel. irician at
that age.--(e6 Ow," and a laugh.) Still less entail he
have supposed that Mr. Pot bad given his opinion on the
settlement of the Civil List at the ;tree eion of George IV.,
is the country wae unfortunately deprived.' tef his services
twelve years before that time. The Right lion. Peeretery
must lunre confounded the opinion given by Mr. Vox It
some other peritid. Under all the eireuttnitancee of the
rase,. he thought the ramiel bf an.inquity met unfair to
the country, and on some future oettaeltot he should take
the setse of the House en that question.
Sir R. O,Elr, is--The lion.- Menther bad said that he hssd
placed him on his Meal.. t he had done no such thing ;
he was not in the habit of giving rttterence to any expres-
sions which. could wound the feelings Of :sty, lion. Alenie
her, or resider it neceseaty for hint to put linnet..if on his
defence ; but it was the Hem. and Learned Gentlemen
who Ind put him en his defence. The lion, end Learned
Member had chareed the (Internment with great igno.
ranee on tkis occasion. Now be *Uuhl show that in the
charge of ignorance, he (Sir IL Piet) was Its the tight,
and the !Jon. and Learned Member was wroittf. He
would contend for what he was serpriseil to hear the
Hon. and Learned Member deny,—that the "hereditary
revenue" of the Crown had a distinct meaning well recog-
niecd its law, anti that the use of the tenth " without re-
serve " made no difference from " my entire revenue," for
neither could it be we'd to mean that revenue which fro
well known to be excepted from that revenue. But the
Speech from the Threne could not weal have been mil.
taken as to the matter in diecusehm, for after stating, "
Owe, without reserve, at-your disposal, my interest in the
hereditary revenues, it specified the stature of same things
not gent-rally included under that head, adding, the wneds,
"and in those funds which may be derived from any
bruits of the Crown or Admiralty, from the West India
.1116(.14, or from any casual revenues either in my foreign
possessions or in the United Kingilem." if, then, it was the
Intention of his Majesty to phtce at the disposal of Parlia-
ment the other revenues mentioned by the lion. and Learned
Member, they would have been specified as well as those
he had just read. Ott this point, then, it was the lion.
and Learned Member who was wrong, and not he. The
lion. end Learned Gentleman was not more comet with
respect to Mr. Fox, for it was cei taro that that statesman
did express his approbation of that part of Mr. Butler
Bitl which made those divisions and (lessee of the Civil
List row objected to ; and cutely that was au opportunity
for discussing the question whether it ought to include
those claws or not. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
stated that on the first night of t' a session he had dis-
tinctly allotted to the impression which the words of the
Speech bail produced on his mind as to the inulueion of the
duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall ; but the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman ought to bear in mind that on the
second tight a question was put by an Hon. Member on
the opposite side, whether the revenues of those eluehies
were intended to be included amongst those which were
to be platted at the.dieposal of Parliament, and it was dis-
tinctly answered that they were n0t.......(11ear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM—eThis is the first time I heard of
that.

Sir It. PEEL—If the lion. and Learned Gentteam,
who spoke sometimes of non-attendance in the house by
otla re had been in his place at the time he would have
heard it. lie (Sir R. Pcel), though he had many other
duties to occupy him, was in his place, but the lion. and
Learned Gentleman having busine,s to attend to elsewhere,
was absent. The question was put on the second night
by the lion, Member (for Colchester, we believe) who
sometimes took an active part on the question of the Crown

. revenues.
. Mr. BROUGHAM—At all events it does not show
► that I was wrone with respect to the first night.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he did not rise
to prolong this disemeion, hut merely to say a few words
. as to the reason why he had not noticed what fell from his
' Hon. and Learned Friend on the first night of the &mion.
There were many things which fell from his Hun. Friend
; which he let pass unnotioed,, as ha Walk were willing to
forget than to notice.
Mr. BROUGHAM (across the table)—lt is much easier
to forget than to answer sometimes.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL--His Hon. end
Learned Friend was fond of those little irregularities of in-
terruption, which seemed part of his hereditary rights;
but he was in the habit of meeting them elsewhere, and
forgiving them; he also forgave them here. The reason
why lie had not made any comment on what fell from his
Learned Friend on the night in question was, that be did
not suppose he could have fallen into any such mistake.
There Wald, be thought, but one opinion among lawyers
on the question that Lancaster and Cornwall were never
meant to be included in the surrender of the hereditary
revenues of the Crowu, whether that surrender wee con-
veyed in the words " entire," or without reserve." This
hal been so understood from the time of Charles IL, and
he thought there was nothing more plain. With respect
to casual revenue, he thought there could not be a question
that it was included in the term " hereditary revenue,"
and therefore the revenue of that description was expressly
mentioned. Surely his lion. and Learned Friend would
not say that these were all covered by the words "without
reserve." Suppose a man left all his estate in Durham,
" without reserve," would his Learned Friend say that
that would convey an estate in Cumberland? The thing
was so plain, that he had not thought it necessary to
answer it on the first night ; and it would be nnly wasting
the time of the House to enter tattler into it at present.
Lord J. STUART said, lie was glad to have the oppor-
tunity—as the name of his near and dear relation, the
Marquis of Bute, had been mentioned, and as it was stated
iu the band-bill alluded to that he received 62,3001. a year
of the public money—of now publicly stating in his place,
that on that subject the plecard in question did not con-
tain a word of nuth.—(Hear.) He could state, that hie
noble relation had not, for the last 16 }ears since lie came
into the possession of his estate's, received sixpence of the
public money.—(Bear.) As the calumny contained hi
this hand-hill had been published in most of the News.
papi:re, some of them Papers of great respectability and ex-
tensive circulation, he hoped the Committee would excuse
him fur taking that opportunity of giving the most public
and unqualified eontrediction.—(Hear. )---He did not know
how any person mild give currency to such abominable
falsehoods, or haw any one could give them circulation.
The calumny had its origin in a little hook, polished moms
Years ago, called " A Peep at the Peers," which was full
of gross falsehood&
Lard PALMERSTON said that the discussion and ail.
ference of opinion between his Right Hon. Friend awl the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, on the subject of one pas.
sage in the speech, was another proof of the kind of way
in which topics were introduced into speeches from the
throne, which it would be better to omit, or to insert with
less ambiguity. It was Once stated, as a proof. of the great
ability of Mr, Pitt, that he could speak a King's speech off-
hand. He was not disposed to :mach much value to that,
as the qualification of a great statesman ; but when he saw
eleven gentlemen employ themselves in preparing a Royal
speech, and that they did nut succeed in framing it, so as
to make it understood without any difficulty, he owned he
was inclined to set a much higher value upon Mr. Pitt's
talent, in that respect, than he had hitherto done.—( Hear.)
Ile Certainly must admit that, whether right or wrong, an
impression did exist from the wording of the King's speech,
that it meant to Imhof', amongst the revetinee to lie placed
at the disposal of Parliament, those of the Duchies of Lan.,
caster and Cornwall ; and he must say that it would have
been much better if, instead of relying on legal tecliniuX
ties for the meaning of the words in the speech, to have
so explained the matter as to leave no doubt on the sub•
ject, particularly as the words " without revenue" had
been used. It was not his intention on the present oece.•
*ion to enter into any details with respect to what had fallen
from his Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the FAO*•
quer, as a more fit opportunity would occur; hut he could
not help exptesaing his regret diet his Right lion. Friend
had not adopted more simplified arrangements in the new re-
gulation iu the Civil List, than those Which
hr. hail laid be-
fore the Committee, and he regretted it the more, as he saw
no one advantage that could be gained by the present
ar-
rangement. His Right lion. Friend (Sir R. P.) had said that
the change in the present pion could make no difference on
the score of economy. Ile differerl from him in this opinion,
for lie knew that when arrangements for seating the CIVII List
revenue were made at the beginning of et reign, it was not
easy or convenient to alter them afterwards. Ile there..
fore thought it unwise to mix up with the expenses of the
Civil List items which }utterly
.did not belong it, but
which it might liana there to time be found expedient to

alter. nut it would be 'Moth to mate the elltostion
while they were orbits' op with the Civil List, rebirth wavy
ol great objections to disturb a Ivo it was ewe
Ms night lion. Friend orb! that them would be an advans
rge in rontinuing other charges which had hitherto tweet
iireluded in rise Civil List, thorigh net properly belonging
to it. lie owned he could not see what that advantage
*es. The Civil List ought to be eat down at what it really
was, for he saw nothing that could be gained by a con-
cealment of frets. it was the less necessary in a country
wbiel, did not grudge every liberal expense for the due
support of the dignity of the Sovereign, ant! for mmtri.
iu every degree to Me personal comfert and con.
veniettre. All this the people of England were willing to
pity ; there was then no neecterity for swelling out the
item to the sum of 960,000/. in order that it might be
west to those who might object to tire amount, 11 There is
only the half of this sum expended fee the actual expenses
of noyaitr." Such un answer would do only for those
who did not consider, or eauhl not understand, the sob.
!ect. Ile therefore 'should wish to see a ditliirer,t—a more
e}mple arrangement, which would put every item under
its proper head, and remove all those which did not pro-
perly belong' to the Civil. List expenditure. The :Noble
Lord Althorp) had expreesed his wish that this matter
should be referred to the examination of a Committee, and
this seemed to be the opinion of other lion. Members
There wart, as was said, a Committee in 1816. and its
recommendations were made the groundwork of *One-
qurnt arrangement. lie also cooeurred in tine propriety
of a previous inveetigatine. He OW trot mean an inquiry
trrto the details of every item which tended to the personal
comfort end convenience of their Majesties. Such an in-
qttirr would he revo'ting to the good feelings of the country,
but be would have an inquiry into the general heads cif
expenditure, in order to ascertain what aloud,' nun laimed
not be classed under the expense of the Civil List.
went!' not go now into detail, but whether a Committee
were imprinted or not, the House would, I,e was sure, not
grant more than was necessary: but, on the other hand.
they would give all that multi conduce to the due mainte-
nance of the dignity of the Crown, and contribute to the
personal comfort and convenience of the Sovereign.
Sir H. PARNELL wished now to give notice, that
when the further ronsideration of this suiject should be
pee into, he would move as art amendment, that a com-
mittee be appointed to investigate the whole In doling
tins lie loped it was noneressary for him to state that he
in ter degree wished to deprive the Sovereign deny aim;
that could at all contribute to the due maintmanre ut lug
Crown and dignity, or to diminish any expenditure that
could tend to his personal comfort and convenience. Ile
must also say, that he had no wish to throw toy inpedn-
writ in tire way of a speedy settlement of the Civil List ;
bat he thought it was the duty of the House to take rhea
first opportunity of reducing the general expenditures ter the
lowest possible eede.
The question flint the Chairman do report progyeris was
then put and carried : and the House having Rotuma), be
obtained leave to sit again on Monday.
SCOTCH AM) IRISH' PENSIONS.

Mr. MIME moved (as wa understood the Men. Mem.
her) for an account of the *lnmate chariee in !he way
of pensions on the Scotch and Irish Civil Lists. Tha pre-
sent, be thought, was the most. tivourabla opportunity ftr
rush a motion, as the Civil List waa about to he staled
for the present reign.
Sir P. PEEL objecied to the introduction of midi o
motion without the usual notice.
After a short conversation Itetlvren Mr. IlituF and
IL PEEL, the motion was allowed to stand as a notice ti
Monday next.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mom,
the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a
Committee of Supply.
Lord A urn OHP wisLed to know whet it war the Right
Hon. Gentleman intended to propose in the Committee
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER LAW tipit
last Session the House had granted a vote of supply and a
vote of credit ; but the Session ended without providing
a sufficient ways and means to meet that supply ; so that
the supply had exceeded the ways and means by shout
8,200,000/. To make goad this diff,rence, it was traces-
trtry that the ways and means should be voted ; but in a
new Session no ways and means could he voted until a
vote of supply had first been agreed to. The sum, there-
fore, for which he should now move in the Committee
would he, for the difference between the voted supply of
last Session and the ways and means. . .
Mr. fIUME expressed a doubt whether the House might
to consent to any supply until it had in at d the whole of
the financial arrangements to be proposed.

The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHEQUER said that
the proposed vote bad, prop,,tly speaking, nothing to du
with those arrangements. It was only to enable the Go-
vertiment to carry on the public service, by carrying into
effect the vote of the House in the last Session. That
vote would be useless to Government, unless the ways anti
means were also voted, and this could not be done, ea be
had said, in a new Session, until anwher vote of eopoy
for the amount molted had Neu iNrced to. The Hen.
Member could not now fairly object to the vote to which
he had agreed hot Session.
Mr. HUM E said there was this am.. rence,—that Lot
Session he had confidence in the Ministers ; in the pre-
sent ha had none. He saw them about to pursue a course
which he could not approve. Howeter, he would not
offer any objection to the Committee, as a new', vote was
to be taken.

The House then went into a Committ-e, when
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved,.
the 4 a hunt not exceeding 3,258021. 150. he granted to
his Majesty, to make good the supply voted in the lot
Session of the Wu Parliament. The Right Hon. Gent:e4
man said, -that the supply voted lest year amounted to
16,600,0001. ; but ways and means to the same anniunt
had not been granted ; and as the Session was shout to
elooe, and the Parliament was to meet again men, a vote
of credit was taken to (tarry on the public: service. The
earn he now moved for was, as he had stated, to make
good that amount of supply far which ways and means bed
not been provided.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the House lw-
ing reomned, the Repot wax ordered to be received on
Monday.
TRADE WITH BRITISH POSSESSIONS IN
NORTH AMERICA AND THE WEST INDIES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the order of the day for bring up the'report of the COUI.•
mittee on the Acts relating to thie trade.
Sir A. GRANT appeared at the Bar with the report.
On the question that it be brought up,
Mr. W. WHITMORE objected to the scale of duties
proposed, which were a renewal of the old syatem of pro•
tecting duties, awl which tended only to give a mitelirec..
tion to capital. The proposed arrangement would benefit
no party but the West India interest; and that only through
an increased price for their sugar at the expense of the
public at large.

The report was then brought up. On the question that .
it be reed,
Mr. K. DOIYGLAS begged Hon. Member* who were .
in the habit of complaining that boons were conferred on,
the West India interest at the expense of the Emile at
large, to bear in mind, in the first pima, that the Acts of
Parliament which regulated the West India trade did not
emanate front that body but from that House ; that the
West Indians, as a body, had no share in their enactments,
and that in many cases they were not such as they could
approve of. With respect to the proposed schedule eon!.
tined in the report then under consideration, he hogged
have to declare, en the pert of the Wast India interest,
that it would confer on them pa boon . • for they had .
Possessed all the advantages which it could bestow up to
the passing of Lord Gotletich's Act in llwn
Heathen; would see that by the scale in the present report,
the duties ou imports entering the West Indian ports were
considerably raised,—in some casts thirty anti forty per
cent.,--rentlering it necessary that tome counterbalanerog
advantage shmdd be given to the planters in the disposal of
their product: •
Mr. WARBURTON Was opposed to the Right Hos
Gentleman'. proposition altogether. it, in the tint pietist,
was highly objectionable, ash Went to impose an additienal
tot on sugar that is, on a necessary of life in which the
public at large felt an iuterest.—(llcar, hear.) And, in
the'next place, it was highly objrotionalife, as contrary to
the free trade principles which it bad been the boast of
3littisters to have titled on for some years.. It went to
force a trade at a great public loss, in a Colony Which basic
no natural aiivautagts for onsteining that trade, Already
was the country taxed a million end a half per annum, to
force a timber-trade with Canada I astir as if that sum
were not sufficient, they have now a propoittion to catty
that forging system still further. Canada poariesseti no
sdvatitagett to warrant this extraordinary addition to the
burdens of the people ; on the contrary, under a bona fide
'tee trade system, there wss scarcely a single article of
commerce which could not he had better anti cheaper from
other countries, from wit4h, under the present niiechievoue
protecting system, the British merchant was excluded.
Mr. JEPITSON said a few words to the same effect.
Mr. lIEBRIES begged leave once for all, in answer to
the observatieut of tt.e Hon. Wither ter Itettiptert (Mt.
Warburton), respecting whit was caned the, tree trade
polity of AlinisteN to disclaim, on thcipart ol the•ment;
tiers of the passant Government, th tt Adria devotion to the
principle's ol free trade is hitch the titoi..Aletotter grottiest its
consider their duty. However uttexcitionable these prin.