The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-01 00:00:00

THE SITN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 1, 1863.

common.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that letter ought to
be a warning to the house against paying attention to com-
munications of that kind. So far as the Government were
concerned there was not a particle of truth in thestatement,
nor could they believe that any officer of the port of Liver-
pool would have so wilfully misinterpreted his instructions.
The vessel called the Gibraltar had been the well-known
Sumter, the legality of the sale of which had never beenre-
cognised by the Federal Government, and some inquiry bad
been thought necessary by the Government, but the guns
had subsequently been arowed to proceed.
Lord R. CECIL—AIy question as to the production of
the papers has not been answered. (Hear' and order.)
THE JUDGES OF THE lONIAN ISLANDS.
In reply to Mr. MACKuLaY,
Mi. FORTESCUE said the despatches upon this subject
had not been recently produced, because they were already
before Parliament ; and, upon the question of dismissal, re-
ferred the hon. and learned gentleman to Parliamentary
paper No, 772, 1663.
AFFAIRS OF GREECE.
In reply to Mr. S. FITZGER&LD,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
£4,000 which would come to England out of the £12,000
per annum surrendered by the new King of Greece would,
when received, go into the consolidated fund ; but the mode
in which the surrender should be made was still under eon..
sideration. He would reply further in a few daps.
FEDERAL RECRUITING IN LEEDS.
In reply to Mr. FEBRAND,
Sir G. GREY said he had not yet received the Opinion
of the law officers of the Crown upon the report received
from the Mayor of Leeds upon this subject.
RECOGNITION OF THE SOUTHERN STATES.
Mr. ROEBUCK presented a petition, embodying the re-
solutions passed unanimously at a meeting of 20,000 persons
held at Oldham a few days since, calling upon the house to
pray her Majesty to enter into neptiations with the great
Powers of Europe, with a view to effecting a recognition of
the Southern States. (Hear.)
The petition was ordered to lie upon the table.
Mr. ROEBUCK then, in a very full and attentive house,
rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, and
spoke as follows—Sir, I well know the importance and the
gray ity of the question I am about to bring before the house,
and I well know also the sort of obloquy to which I subject
myzelf by so doing. lam aware that those persons who op-
pose me deem themselves the "salt of the earth," and that
every opinion of theirs ought to be the opinion of other men,
and that all other men ought to bow down to them. But,
in despite of that obloquy, and believing that the course lam
about to take is in the interest of my country, 1 now make
my appeal to this house, to its honour and to its good feel-
ing, to do that which I am about to ask of them, namely,
to solicit the Crown to enter into negotiations with the
great Powers of Europe for the purpose of acknowledging
the independence of the Southern States of America. Now,
Sir, before I do this, and before I state the argument in my
mind upon this matter, I must ask to be permitted to lay
before the house a very short history, which I deem im-
portant and necessary for the full understanding of my pro-
position. Not that I suppose any gentleman in this house
is ignorant of what I am about to state, but in order to
make my argument complete I must lay this down. Sir,
about two centuries and a half ago England prepared to co-
lonise the then newly-discovered continent of America.
They proposed to maks that continent partly a refuge for
persons in England who wished to leave England, and
partly with the grander view of laying the foundation of a
great nation thereafter to be reated, as it were, on that
continent, and thus forming the nu cleus of a great purchas-
ing Power for their own commoditich was, ies. Thel
think, in 1772-
last colony we
established there was Georgia, wh
Those colonies owed nothing, however, to the English na-
tion as a nation, or to the Government as a Government,
but they owed everything to the English people. From
them they derived their language, their institutions, their
manners, their literature, their laws, and their character.
They grew up, in fact, to be a great nation. Inspired and
governed by the feelings of Englishmen, they took offence
at what they deemed te be oppression.
that oppr,„- They resisted
~
and determined to throw off the burden.
At that time, stir- ]England had the nxisfortune to be

governed by a narrow-minded, bigoted monarch. (Oh,
and Hear.) That monarch 'determined to resist t e tde-
mands of the Ameriean people, He waged aw, r hich
made enemies of us and them, and, instead ' all wing
them to separate themselves peaceably from Englan they
were violently divided from us, and hatre I w, s the onse-
quence. However, not only did the Ame wee people esta-
blish their independence, but they establish d two points of
international law which I think of very groat importance at
the present time. The first was that may body of People
determined to throw off their allegiance, if they had the
power, were justified in so doing; and we acknowledged
that to be a principle of international morality by the treaty
we made with them in 1813. The second great point was
in truth a very remarkable one. The French interfered in
that dispute, and France bore the same relationship to our
revolted colonies that we do now to the Confederale States
of America. We made peace with France, and thereby
established another rule of international morality, or as it is
sometimes called international law; that is to say, we thereby
acknowledged that, although we made war against France
for so acknowledging the rebellious colonies to be indepen-
dent states—we acknowledged afterwards that France was
justified in acknowledging those states before we acknow-
ledged them, Now these two principles of international
law I deem to be of the highest importance at the present
moment, and I bring them to bear against the Northern
States of America; for, though other nations may dispute
them, it is clear they cannot. Then began the great race of
American prosperity, and a very curious thing occurred, of
which not much notice was taken. After the war of 1815
the Northern States began their course of protection. They
determined to make the Southern States, which were the
great producers, subservient to themselves, and they esta-
blished a tariff which placed the whole carrying power in
the hands of the Northern Sates, and also made the South
purchase the commodities they required of the Northern
manufacturers. From that moment a dispute grew up be-
tween the South and the North. In 1827 the South tried to
release themselves from the yoke of the tariff, but failed.
Then came the hope of making slavery relieve them from
that tariff and the thraldom put upon them by the Northern
States. That feeling grew up day by day, month by month,
and year by year, until at last secession came ; and then
those gentlemen who are so incorporated with the literature
of the North (looking towards Messrs. Cobden and Bright)
in spite of the obloquy it brought upon them, made Europe
believe that the North had only to stretch forth her
hand, and in 90 days they could crush the rebellion. The
90 days went past, but no conquest had been reccrded ; and
two years had since passed away in the same manner. The
question now was, what was England to do? He (Mr. Roe-
buck) said they were to recognise the South, and why ?
First, because they had vindicated for themselves the right
of acknowledgment. (Cheers.) With a very small force
they had conquered the North, and rolled back the tide of
invasion. (Cheers) It was not Richmond that was now
threatened, but Washington. (Cheers.) Upon the question
of international law he would appeal to the hon. and learned
Solicitor-General whether it was not international law that
when a people showed power of resistance, and declared
they would be independent, we were fully justified in ac-
knowledging that people, and in the language of the learned
Sir James Mackintosh, " that it would be no cases belli
when we made that acknowledgment." (Hear.) The first
question therefore was, should we acknowledge the South ?
He would say " Aye," first because they had vindicated
their right to be acknowledged; and, secondly, because it
was for our interest to acknowledge them. (Hear.) There
had never been such a phenomenon as that now presented
of 10,000,000 of civilised men producing three of the great
necessary commodities of Europe—sugar, cotton, and to-
bacco—looking about for customers, and saying to Europe,
" Here are nearly a million of your people suffering from
the want of the articles we produce. We have them here to
offer you, and we want to know, are you prepared to accept
them?" What was it, then, that prevented the recognition
of the South ? He looked at the Government bench for a
reply, and was sorry to notice the absence of the noble vis-
count, who was really the Government himself. (Cheers.)
What was it that prevented that great act of humanity to
England and of justice to America ? He knew he should be
met with the statement that England could not recognise
a State in which slavery existed. No ? Had we not ac-
knowledged Brazil ? (Hear, hear.) Were we not in con-
stant communication with Russia? was there no slavery
there ? (Hear.) More than that, did anybody believe that the
black would be at all improved in his condition by being put
in the position of a free black in the North ? (Cheers.) He
asked, if the North Americans hated slavery, whether they
did not hate the slaves the more? (Cheers, and a single
" No" from the vicinity of Mr. Bright's seat.) He pittied
the ignorance of the hon. gentleman who said " No," Why,
they were not permitted to take any equal station, to ride
in the same carriage, to pray to God in the same place in
the churches, nor to sit down at the same table. In fact,
they were hunted about like stray dogs by everybody. In
the South all that was very different. Black and white chil-
dren were brought up and went to school together. The
hon. and learned gentleman said there was a kindly feeling
in the mind of the Southern planters for those men whom
England sent there, and who were the cause of fixing
slavery there. It was not the doing of America, for they
prayed to England not to introduce or establish the slave
trade ; but we did it because it then suited our interests,
and those who were now prone to talk philanthropy, talked
" 'tother" way then. (Hear, and laughter.) He referred
to the difference of feeling existing in the North and South
towards the black, which could not be mistaken ; the former
shivered when he came across a black, and appeared con-
taminated in the fact of his being on an equality with him,
but that was not the case with the South. (Hear.) Slavery
was as distasteful to him as to the hon. member for Bir-
mingham, but he had learnt to bear with other men, and
with other men's infirmities—(laughter and ironical cheers)
—and he thought that to make all the blacks of the South
like the free blacks of the North would be a curse to the
land. (Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.) The cry of the North
was a hypocritic cry, for they would join the South to-
morrow, and fasten slavery on the necks of the South-
erners if they would but come into the Union ; but they
never would come into the Union again, and they hoped
they never might. He referred to the conduct of
America before the civil war, describing her as the great
bully of the world, bestriding the wcrld like a Colossus,
whilst we, like petty men, walked through her huge legs to
seek for ourselves dishonourable graves; and he assured the
house that, so far as his influence went, he was determined
to prevent the reconstruction of the Union. (Hear, hear.)
After referring to our humiliation previous to the American
difficulty—to the fact that the South was becoming a menu •
facturing people, which, if continued, might tend to the in-
jury of the trade of this country—he said the time had come
for mediation ; and the next question was, how it should be
accomplished. He said the mode he proposed was, that
that house should pray to the Queen to have communica-
tion with the great Powers of Europe, in or ler to lead to a
recognition of the South. The great Powers of Europe
meant really France—(hear, hear)—for no other country
but Russia has any fleet, and her fleet was not worth think.
ing of. (Hear, and laughter.) Russia is in a position to
do nothing, and the only Power we have to consider is
France— (hear, hear)—and if France and England united
to acknowledge the South there will be an end of the war.
(Hear, hear.) Now, I am obliged to enter into a sort of per-
sonal history which I hope the house will excuse. lam
now going to state that I know something about the state
of the mind of the French ruler, which 1 am authorised to
lay before this house. (Laughter and ironical cheers.)
Knowing what had been said by her Majesty's Government
about the Emperor of the French having changed his mind
on this subject, I applied to my hon. friend the member for
Sunderland, knowing that he has permission given to him of
writing to the Emperor of the French when he wishes to see
him, and I suggested, as a means of ascertaining whether the
rumour was true or not, that we should go across and ask
the e
eEr t
)peror the :question. (Hear,
anlad andehug thehter, asunhcls ironical
cheers.) ohi
s s.i of
h
My friend accordingly
the wrote,
letter was laid before ,Era ?eror ve ad an audience.
1
The Emperor of the French informed us that, as soon as
authorityrumour
to
os
state i n
it i
n circulationth e Housein
oEng-
landheha(aduldeahr:
b-
sent instructions to his ambassador in Lon-
donso to deny the truth of the assertion, and
his tof assurel. the
willing to join him in
and to ask them again if they
that recognition. (Hear,
changed they bad become stronzeerrem favour
.. of recognition,....
bear.) Now there must be no mis-
take about the matter, and
: [ pledge
( n h eerie
rys veracity)
He
e told t o the
ra e truth
such
of the statement I have made. %-- '
had been sent to Baron Gros, and then to tell me that the
British Government does not know that it has occurred
must mean some diplomatic evasion that cannot be the
truth, and there is a contradiction, as a
judge would say,
between the statement of the witnesses; but I repeat I
pledge my veracity for the truth of what I have stated, and
I don't believe the world will doubt my word. (Hear,
hear,
and cheers.) Further than this, I laid before his Majesty
two courses of conduct that I thought ought to be pursued
in the present case. I said, " Your Majesty might make a
formal application to England," upon which he stopped me
and said he could not do it, and he would tell me why he
could not. Some months ago, he said, he made a formal ap-
plication to England, which was forwarded to America, and
was shown by Mr. Seward to the French ambassador. He
considered himself ill-treated by that conduct—(hear, hear'
and cheers)—and he declined subjecting himself again to
the danger of similar treatment ; but he said he would do
everything short of it, and he gave me full liberty to state
in the English House of Commons that it was his wish
and determination in all things to act with England ; and,
more than all, he was determined to act with her as re-
garded America. (Cheers.) Ido not believe that her Ma-
jesty's Government are ignorant of the feelings of the Em-
peror of the French, or that they are prepared to actin concert
with France. They are afraid of a war with the Northern
States in America; but my impression is that we might in
ten days sweep every American ship from off the face of
the seas. (Oh, oh, and cheers.) There are people who are so
imbued with Northern feelings as to feel indignant with
that assertion—(hear, and cheers).—but it is well known
that the Warrior would destroy the whole of the North
American fleet; their armies are melting away; Washing-
ton is in danger ; and the only fear we ought to have is that
Southern independence will be established without us.
(Cheers.) In conclusion, the hon. and learned gentleman
said—A large portion of our manfacturing population have
been for some months past living on charity, and I regret to
find, from information I have received from Manchester and

Lancashire, that an unwillingness to labour is creeping on
the people— (hear)—and that, if we carry them through the
coming winter in idleness, there is no telling what the con-
sequences may be on the manufactui ing populati n of those
districts. And here again I quote the remarkable words of
the Emperor of the French. He said he dreaded the coming
winter with respect to his own manufacturing population—
(hear, hear)—and my hon. friend the member for Sunder-
land said, We do not dread the winter, though we know
great misery must be inflicted on our labouring population
if cotton cannot be obtained, and we desire, therefore, to
avert that calamity from our countrymen that must neces-
sarily arise from the continuation of the cotton femme. So
far the people have not blamed her Majesty's Government,
believing that the misery they suffered has not been caused
by any conduct of the Government, but that it his been an
inevitable calamity ; but they are not now like the ignorant
people of former times, and I warn the noble lord not to do
anything that can be charged upon the Government as con-
tinuing the present suffering. I have to-day received letters
from Lancashire, stating that meetings have been held in 13
great towns in favour of the recognition of the South ; and
if the noble lord refuses to comply with the just demands of
the people, he will find his popularity tumbled down with a
gigantic ruin, and his small friends will follow with him,
(Hear, and cheers.) I pray the house in all calmness to
consider this subject, and, as men of honour, justice, and
benevolence, to grant me the proposition I ask. (Cheers.)
Lord R. MONTAGU then rose to move as en amendment
that this house earnestly desires that an impartial neutrality
should continue to be maintained by her Majesty's Govern..
ment during the present unhappy contest in the States of
North America. The noble lord said he could not allow
that the hon. member for Sheffield was more anxious than
he was for the independence of the South, nor that hemore
admired the noble struggle in which the South was engaged.
But if he desired to bring a question before the house, it was
not to an Austrian Emperor or a French despot that he
would run for counsel. If he wanted advice. there were
plenty of members in that house who could give him better
advice than any foreign Emperor. (Hear, hear.) Instead
of facts and arguments, the hon. and learned member had
treated them to sneers and rhetorical artifices. (Hear.) He
asked them to recognise the South, because the South was
successful ; that was to say, he was for interposing to pre-
vent the South of having the honour of achieving her own
independence. Then he put it to the house, could any
Power have been more insolent to England than the
North l—that was to say, the hon. member came down to
the house and endeavoured to stir up the bad passions of
the two nations in every possible way. But upon such a
question it behoved them to put aside all passion. (Hear,
hear.) How could they expect to be able to reason at all if
their eyes were blinded with passion ? He had heard the
story of the French despatch more than a year ago, rut his
version was that the French Government being suspected
of playing a double game, Earl Russell, in order to test
their faith, showed the despatch to Mr. Seward, for the
purpose of proving that the French were intriguing secretly
against the North. Now his conclusion was that the French
Emperor had been merely making a cat's-paw of the hon.
and learned gentleman. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from
the benches below the Ministerial gangway.) He owned
he Lund himself somewhat in the position of Gen. Hooker
when he crossed the Potomac—whichever way he faced
there was an enemy before him, all retreat being cut off. The
hon. member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) supported re-
cognition on the ground of the horrible waste of human life
that was taking place ; but he always mistrusted those sud-
den desires to stop the effusion of blood. Why, our own civil
war had lasted ten years, and the civil war in the States of
South America had lasted 15 years. Was it always the duty
of England to stop the effusion of blood ? Had that always
been our principle of action ? What would they have said
if America, France, or Russia had attempted to aid the
Sepoys in their revolt? Would they not have told them
angrily to cease from interfering ? If they would hearken
to the dictates of humanity, they should try to settle the
quarrel in the manner most conducive to the interests of
the Anglo-Saxon race, by renouncing all partiality for either
the North or the South. (Hear, hear.) A mere armistice
would only be productive of increased rancour between the
two sides; and if an armistice was to be proclaimed, how
were the limits of each to be defined ? The North was at
New Orleans, and the Southerners were in Maryland. In-
tervention could only end in war with the North, and that
was really what was meant by the hon. member's resolution.
Recognition without war would not bring even a single bale of
cotton from America ; and certainly war with America would
not increase the capabilities of Lancashire for maintaining
her starving population. (Hear, hear.) He reminded the
house that alliances to intervene always ended in misunder-
standings between the allies themselves, and asked if itwere
not possible that, as in Mexico, as also in this matter, France
might be seeking to pursue a selfish policy. (Hear, hear.)
Louisiana was an ancient settlement of France. What if
the Emperor Napoleon again desired its possession. He did
not know how that might be, but he had heard rumours to
that effect. The hon. gentleman told them the South had
nearly achieved its independence. Why, then, should we
intervene ? We should remember to what it would expose
us—invasion of Canada, stoppage of the supplies of corn,
and the necessity of protecting British commerce in every
corner of the world. He did not appeal to British fears, but
he asked the house to remember what intervention would
cost. He would rather agree with Lord Derby, and believe
that the time had not arrived when it was either wise,
politic, or even legitimate, to recognise the South. That
was the conclusion to which he had come ; he hoped it was
the conclusion to which the house would also come; and in
that hope he moved the amendment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. CLIFFORD seconded the amendment. He
believed that the noble lord had proceeded to a right con-
clusion, though on. a false ground, when he said that the
Southern States were engaged in rebellion. As regarded
the general question, though he felt well disposed to both
sides, he could not disguise from himself that popular feel-
ing in this country was strongly in favour of the South,
and believed that the South was making progress which
would be crowned with success. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER next rose
and said—l am desirous, at the commencement of such
remarks as I have to offer, to take a lesson first from my
hon. friend the member for Sheffield, who told us in the
course of his speech that he had learned to bear with the
opinions of others. (Hear.) I wish to record my adhesion
to that sentiment. I will go a step further, and say I
think it is the duty of every man, of every member of
this house in a peculiar degree, and most of
all of every adviser of the Crown, in approaching
this question to use his best and utmost en-
deavours to suppress within his breast everything like
passion, to lay aside every vestige of feeling in return. Our
duty is to treat this matter as a matter of dry fact, and,
however passion and feeling may tend to intrude themselves
into the domain of reason, to strive to hold the balance even,
and deliver a judgment with as much impartiality, as much
abnegation of selfish prejudice and all angry emotion, as if
we were sitting on the bench of justice or in the box of the
jury. It is impossible, if we look at this as a matter of feel-
ing, not to see Cunt the feelings with which we must regard
it are very mixed. If we take the case of the Southern
States, I think there can be few who do not sympathise
with a resistance as heroic as ever has been offered in the
history of the world on the part of a weaker body against the
overpowering and vastly superior force of numbers. But, on
the other hand, if we look at the case of the South from that
point of view in which it stands so intimately connected with
the profession, at least, of strong adherence to slavery, a
strong counter-current of feeling would arise in the mind;
and I quote this circumstance because I think that, upon
the whole, wo are really without excuse if, in a case so mixed,
and where different considerations tend so powerfully in
opposite directions—l think we should be the more without
excuse if we suffered our judgment to be bewildered by
strong sentiments of partisanship on the one side or the
other. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) And so also with regard
to the North. I think it is impossible for any Englishman
who justly views this matter, whatever may have been his
prejudices against American institutions, not to have a
strong fellow• feeling for those who formed in their own
minds exalted visions of the great future of their country,
stretching from one end of a great continent to the other,
languageto us, o
and who see those visions now threatened with destruction.
There is no stronger and more legitimate instinct than that
which revolts against disruption. On these grounds we
must see that it is perfectly easy for us to understand the
t have
which
feelings which have governed the people of the North in
entering into and pushing on this war, even after, as it
seems
however much there must be in their measures and
their
passedappear
all
to
b eboduiffindeus
lotfterreettesoonneailnedwiothf
hope;
the high intelligence which usually characterises them. I
venture to say that I differ from my hon. and learned friend, '
for I think that we ought to be very cautious as to
giving
British interests a prominent place is the argument. (Hear.)
For my own part, I never have concurred with those
who thought that it was a matter of high British inte-
rest that the old American Union should be torn into
pieces. Ido not agree with the hon. and learned member
when he says that the American Union had become so
vast and se menacing to the world that we were in danger
of dwindling beside it, or of having weakened our power
of maintaining our rights. Ido not think that territorial
extension, though it adds to magnitude, necessarily adds
to the vigour of a State. (Hear.) Ido not for a moment
admit that either England or France, or any other country
in Europe, had lost power relatively, or were losing ground
in comparison with the United States, or were less able
than heretofore to assert every just claim, and exercise every
legitimate influence, in the face of the United States. I have
always had the individual opinion, involved as England was
not so much in mere interest as in consideration of duty and
honour, with regard to the British North American Colo-
nies, that the balance of States of the old Ameri-
can Union, which caused the whole of American polities
to turn upon the relative strength of slavery and Northern
interests, offered a state of things perhaps more favourable
to us, perhaps more likely to ensure the continuance of
peaceful relations in America, and the avoidance of all poli-
tical complications which might have arisen in connection
with the relations between this country and our colonies—
than that state of things whieh would arise in America if
it were to happen that the old American Union should
divide into a cluster cluster of
of Northern and a
Southern `tutee. That cluster of Northern States,
having lost all connection •
with the slavery interests
which was formerly adverse to extension northwards
would have fair and strong motives to cudca•

your to re-establish their territorial grandeur by
uniting themselves to the colonies of British North Ame-
rica. Whether that opinion is sound or unsound, I can-
not help stating with confidence that if we were strongly to
put forward the consideration of British interests in this
matter, and if we were to found arguments for recognition
of the South upon the plea that British interests required
it, and that British interests are threatened by the great-
ness of the American Union—by that very fact you stamp

on every argument for recognition, on every tendency to-
wards recognition, on every expression of a wish for peace,
some character of hostility to our brethren in America.
(Hear, hear.) lam sure my hon, and learned friend will
feel that I am warranted in alluding to this subject in a
pointed manner, after he has declared, in connection with
his motion for recognition, that he is determined to do all

he can, on the ground of British interests, to prevent the
reconstruction of the American Union, The first and

broadest objection which it is my duty to take to the motion
is one which I must take also to the amendment of the

noble lord, Either the motion or the amendment would
involve the assumption by the House of Commons of that

which it is perfectly entitled to assume in point of right if it
thinks fit, but which the House of Commons has not
thought it expedient to assume, and which I do not think
it would be expedient for it to assume—l mean the affirm-
ing by positive declaration in this house the course which
should be pursued by the Executive Government, when it
is the Executive Government alone, and not the House of

Commens, which could have close and private cognisance
of every circumstance from day to day bearing on the con-
dition of this contest, and on the position of England in re-
gard to it ; and when, therefore, it is the dictum of pru-
dence and policy to leave in the hands of the Executive
Government that direction which it claimed. There was
no merit to be claimed by the Executive Government for
that which it had done or omitted to do, but 1 say that set-
ting apart all reference to this or that question of internee
tional or maritime law, which may hitherto have arisen,
and looking to the general policy which has been pursued—
a policy not of indifference, not of unobservance, not of
blindness, but of faithful and strict neutrality up to the
present moment--that policy which has been pursued
by the Government of England has been a policy answer-
ing to the conviction and desires of the country. I hope
the house will not be disposed to entertain either the mo-
tion or the amendment, which would have the effect of de-
termining beforehand, by rules laid down in set phrase—
from which there would be no power to depart, whatever
the variation of the circumstances, or however strong the
dictates of expediency and right—the course which the Go-
vernment is to be bound to pursue, but rather leave it to
the Government to act in the same spirit as heretofore, and
with that regard which it has endeavoured to show both to
the justice and policy of the case, and also to the opinions
and wishes of the country. (Hear.) Ido not say that the
issue of this contest is, humanly speaking, in any degree
doubtful ; but during .the whole period that the war has
lasted there has not been a single point of time on which
you could lay your finger and say that at that point of time
there were depending military issues of such vast import-
ance, and upon which so much depended wit h regard to the
position of the parties and the wishes and intentions of
the belligerent Powers. That the particular moment at
which the hon. gentleman has made his motion is in some
respects unfortunate, I think will not be denied ; but there
is another thing for which the hon. gentleman is to be held
responsible, and that is the speech that he has made. The
hon. gentleman came before them like a lamb, ready to offer
himself a sacrifice to the storm of obloquy he anticipated.
I rather pity a gentleman who takes up such a cause with
such a prospect; but that is a trifling matter compared
with the importance of the rest of his speech. The hon.
gentleman himself is too candid to deny that his speech ex-
hibited strong and almost passionate partisanship of the
South. That of itself would render the course he advo-
cated imprudent. It is no easy matter to separate inter-
vention from recognition; but, if the former were to be at-
tempted, any strong expression of partisanship would
prevent its receiving any attention. The honourable
gentleman went a little further, and urged upon us
our duty to the meet. of Lancashire. Well, what does
that mean ? Recognition would not relieve the men of
Lancashire, nor necessarily bring a single bale more cotton
into England. " These men," says the hon. gentleman,
" have been patient hitherto, hut they know that it is the
Government, and the Government alone, that keeps from
them that by which they earn their bread." The meaning
of that is, that if his motion were adopted there would be
an immediate and abundant supply of cotton. I cannot
agree either with his motion or his reasons. At the same
time I admit it to be impossible for the Government to feel
indifferent to the grave question before us. I believe it the
all but universal feeling in this country that this war
should cease. (Hear, hear.) Never was there a war of a
more hopeless and deplorable character, whether measured
by the terrible absorption of human lives—not counted in
hundreds, but in hundreds of thousands—or by the la-
mentable waste and destruction of treasure and property.
(Hear, hear.) What, too, will it bring in the future ?
There will be a dreadful bitterness between the black and
the white in the North. There is also the probably break
down of the old landmarks between right and power in the
North. (Hear, hear.) I say again that we anxiously
desire to see the end of this war. I believe this country
could never be justly charged with any unworthy jealousy
of the prosperity of America ; but if there ever were any
amongst us who, to indulge in such a feeling, closed their
eyes against all that was good and full of promise for man-
kind, they must now feel compassion and concern surpass-
ing every other sentiment. Even the sorrow we feel for
our unemployed operatives must be swallowed up in that
grief we feel for the fearful price the Americans are paying
for this awful war, and the sacrifice they are making of
their blood, their treasure, and their political institutions.
(Hear, hear.) We believe here that no war is just where
the object is unattainable ; we believe also that the restora-
tion of the Union is not possible, and, therefore, that the
war is unjustifiable ; we believe also that the emancipation
of the negro race will never be effected by force
and bloodshed ; but did the hon. gen'leman think on
that account that we ought to adopt his motion ? I have no
doubt he believes it would shorten the war. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman says " Hear," but what Is it to be ?
Recognition with intervention, or without ? I cannot agree
that the war of 1778 broke out in consequence of the recog-
nition of America by the French. The terms of the message
from the King to the House of Commons were, that in con-
sequence of the French having concluded a treaty of com-
merce with the States of America the King had desired the
period
showni that
Register. i
withdrawal of the French Ambassador. The error made by
the noble lord (Lord R. Montagu) is very common, I know,
usually
su documents;lieyatextracts
ae
cooti
accompanies
pt
fromahne i
est r
h Annualorecognition,
untrue. The right hon. gentleman then referred to the decay-
bu
Inter-
vention slol the
,nasnodread x
great caution, in proposing the latter, not to be supposed to
include the former. Notwithstanding that America is con-
stantly declaring her independence of Europe, I believe the
well-ascertained voice of Europe would have great weight
with her; but I do not think that France and England join-
ing together to demand the recognition of the South could
be confidently said to represent the voice of Europe. (Hear,
hear.) No act of interference, arbitration, recognition, or
anything else, will ever have any effect unless we show the
Americans that we enter upon it free from all partial views,
An unasked intervention just now would be considered an
interference with the private affairs of America, and would
bring up that united spirit of defensive power, the absence
of which up to this time has so strengthened the hands of
the South ; for, whatever other errors the American descen-
dants of our ancestors may have committed, it cannot be said
that they have not shown great, signal, and even splendid
personal courage. The responsibility of producing such an
effect is in my opinion a very heavy responsibility, and we
must look in some sense to the immense difficulty of taking
steps in a matter of this kind, and we must feel that so long
as doubt exists that doubt ought to be ruled on the side of
safety. (Hear, hear.) We feel, with the hon. gentleman
the member for Sheffield, it is time this war should end ;
but I confess I have more faith in the gentle action of public
opinion, as it grows and is gradually matured in Europe,
than I have in diplomatic acts that may tend to assume the
appearance of undue interference in American affairs, and
especially of that coming from quarters which may justly
be suspected of selfish motives. (Hear.) It is not from
indifference, or from any belief that there is an adequate
and ample object on the part of the North in pursuing this
war, that I for one venture to deprecate in the strongest
terms the adoption of the motion before the house ; but do
not let us run the risk of making worse that which is al-
ready sufficiently horrible—(hear)—and of adding to that
which now exists other feuds and other follies, that might
carry a wider desolation over the face of the world.
Mr. FORSTER seconded the amendment of the noble
lord, because he thought the motion of the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield was such 'a departure from the policy
of neutrality as ought to be protested against by that house.
He was glad the question had at last come before the house,
because the time had arrived when it should be known
whether they intended at any time to interfere in this war,
or whether they would now interfere by a premature recog-
nition of the South. Recognition would anticipate the de-
feat of one patty, to the ascendancy of the other, and would
be such a clear breach of international law as to give the
Northern States a cases belli if they chose to take notice of
it, in which case we ought to be prepared to enforce our re-
cognition. He asked the house and the country whether
they wished for war and the increase of the income tax, be-
cause unless they were prepared for that it was useless for
them to interfere in the manner they we'e asked to do.
With regard to the statement that had beet made by the
honourable and learned member for Sheffield with
reference
to his interview with the Emperor of the French,
Baron Gros had, since the statement was made in
that house, gone to the Foreign Secretary, and assured
him that the hon. and learned member was mistaken in
what passed, and that there was no foundation for his
statement. (Cheers.) It might possibly be that the hon.
and learned member hod been instructed by the Emperor of
the French to sound the British Parliament, and ascertain
if we were willing to fellow in the lead of the French Em-
peror. (Hear.) He (Vr. Forster) considered we had had
enough of French alliaaco for intervention in cases likely to
lead to war, and he instanced the Crimean war and the
affairs of China ; but, lappily, we had got out of the Mexi-
can intervention. Wiatever might be the feeling of this
country with regard tc Poland, he looked with fear and
suspicion whether danger might not arise with regard to his

kind efforts for Poland. They had heard a great deal about
drifting into war, and the best way to prevent It was by not
allowing the hon. and learned member for Sheffield to put
the ship England under the guidance of a foreign pilot.
(Cheers.) Intervention, or the attempts at intereention,
had always weakened the peace party in America. The pro
position of an armistice had the effect of passing the Con-
scription Bill, and the publication of Lord Lyons' despatch
again strengthened the war party. A great deal depended
on what they did whether power was given to President
Lincoln and those who encouraged the war, or to the peace
party. There was risk of war in such a resolution as that
before them ; and what kind of war ? The war was to be
dreaded because of danger to Canada, because of danger to
the commerce of the country, and because of danger for the
food of the people ; but, above all, it should be unpopular
because it would be a war against our own kinsmen, and in
support of slavery. (Hear.) He owned he felt strongly
upon the question, for he was one of those brought up from
his childhood in the byprocritical cant alluded to by the
hon. and learned member for Sheffield. (Ironical cries of
Hear, hear.) He denied that the question of free trade
had anything to do with the origin of the struggle. The
State of Louisiana, which might be said to be foremost in
the contest on the side of the South, desired protection
for its sugar plantations; while none had fought harder
to maintain the Union than the free trade states of the
North-west. In truth, the contest was for slavery, and the
boundaries of the Secessionist territory were identical with
the boundaries of the slaveholding districts. He was not
going to justify the action of the North with respect to
slavery ; on the contrary, his hon. friend behind him (Mr.
Bright), who had characterised him as a fanatic on the
question, knew that he never endorsed the views of his hon.
friend on the subject of America. Nay, he even went
further, and maintained that this terrible war was the
dreadful lesson which both North and South had to endure
for what they had done in respect of slavery. But the truth
was, the North had to choose between slavery and the exist-
ence of the mother country ; and, moved by a patriotic feel-
ing, the old love of slavery was renounced for the sake of the
great Union. The hon. member then read an extract from
the Richmond Examiner of the 28th May, to prove that the
leading object of the Confederate struggle was the mainten-
ance of slavery, and it was mere trifling to say that if the
Southerners succeeded in the war they would not carry out
the objects for which they went to war. As to the past his-
tory of the Union, he had no hesitation in asserting that
those acts of which England had most reason to complain
were mainly directed by the men of the South. He looked
to the capture of Vicksburg with the greatest interest, tor
he believed the peace and freedom of America depended on
that event. If Vicksburg was taken, that was an end of
all prospect of extending slavery across the Mississippi; and
that object accomplished, the men of the North, seeing the
impossibility of keeping so vast a territory in subjugation,
would draw a cordon round the slaveholding States, and
leave it to themselves to settle the question as best they
might. He confessed he dreaded a war with America, not
mainly because of the suffering which it would entail upon
our people, but because of the results of our success. There
was not a despot in the world who would not rejoice over
such a contest ; and where was the Englishman so degene
rate as to regard that result with indifference f Such a war
would be selfish and unprovoked, and it would be antago-
nistic to the spirit of true religion and morality. (Hear.)
Lord R. CECIL, although not often able to agree with
the hon. member for Birmingham, was able entirely to con-
cur with him when he described the hon. member for Brad-
ford (Mr. Forster) as a fanatic on the question of slavery.
He confessed he had never been able to understand the rea-
soning of the anti-slavery party in this country. The hon.
member who had just eat down did not profess to hope that
the North could conquer the South, although the hon.mem-
ber for Birmingham did hope to exterminate slavery by that
means, The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was most remarkable, because it was the first exposition of
the policy of the Government ; but the question which
pressed upon him was why, after conceding every one of
the positions maintained by the hon. and learned member
for Sheffield, the right hon, gentleman had not assented to
the motion. The suffering of their own people was their
title to interfere, and France and England had but to pro-
nounce the word to contribute enormously to the re-estab-
lishment of peace. He did not know whether it occurred to
the house, but it struck him as most remarkable, that the
Chancellor of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made
no reference to the statements of his hon. and learned friend
as to the policy of the Emperor of the French. The Go-
vernment might rest assured that the matter would not be
passed over. (Hear.) The house should have an answer
to the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman. (Con-
servative cheers.) They knew that the Emperor of the
French, whatever else he might be, was a prudent and
sagacious sovereign, and he would not have adopted this
strange and extraordinary course of communicating directly
with the House of Commons—(cheers and counter-cheers)
—if he had not been driven to it by the treatment he had
received from the Foreign-office. (Conservative cheers,
with cries of " Oh, oh," from the Liberal benches.) He
believed the public would not be satisfied unless the state-
ment to which he had referred received a full and ample
explanation, or until the Government gave an adequate
reason why they did not act upon the frank and open offer
of the Emperor of the French, and justified themselves be-
fore the country for following a policy which had led to so
much misery. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT—Sir, I cannot attempt to follow the noble
lord into the elaborate attack which he has made upon the
Treasury bench, for two reasons—that he did not appear to
me very much to understand what it was he was charging
them with, and because I am not in the habit of defending
gentlemen who sit on that bench. (Laughter.) I shall ad-
dress myself to the question before the house, and which I
think the house generally feels to be very important,
although I am quite satisfied that they do not feel it to be
practical, or one on which they will be disposed to take the
course recommended by the hon. and learned gentleman
who has introduced the resolution. We sometimes are en-
gaged in discussions, and have great difficulty to know
what they are about; but the hon. and learned gentleman
left us in no kind of doubt what he meant this should be.
He proposes a resolution which, under certain circumstances
and addressed to certain parties, might not be offensive or
injurious, but which, taken in connection with his character,
and the speech he has made to-night, and the speeches he
has recently made elsewhere on this subject, leads to the
same conclusion as if he had proposed an address to the
Crown, inviting the Queen to declare waragainst the United
States of America. (Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, who is supposed not to be very zealous in the parti-
cular line of opinion which he has adopted— (laughter)—ad-
dressed the hon, and learned gentleman in the smoothest
language possible; but still he was obliged to charge him
with the bitter hostility of the tone of his speech. (Hear,
hear.) lie told us to-night that the American people and
the American Government were overbearing; but he did
not tell us that the Government of the United States during
his lifetime had been conducted by his friends of the South.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman then said,
" The North will never be our friends. Of the South you
can make friends. They are Englishmen—they are not the
scum and refuse of Europe."
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that he had said "that the
South were Englishmen, but that the army of the North
was composed of the scum of Europe."
Mr. B Itl BHT-I take the hon. and learned gentleman's
explanation, with this observation, that there is not in the
paragraph, and I think not in the speech, a single word
about "army." But I will take it for granted that, if the
hon. and learned gentleman said what I have read, he
greatly regrets it. (Mr. Roebuck dissented.) The hon,
and learned gentlemsn, in his resolution, speaks of other
Powers, but he has unceremoniously got rid of all the
Powers but France. He comes here with the story of an
interview with a man whom he describes as the great ruler
of France, lie states to us a conversation, and asks us to
accept the lead of the Emperor of the French on what I
will undertake to call one of the gravest questions ever sub-
mitted to the British Parliament. (Hear.) But it is not
long since the hon. and learned gentleman he'd very dif-
ferent opinions. (Hear.) I recollect in this house, only
about three years ago, the hon. and learned gentleman said,
" I hope I may be permitted to express my opinion, even
though it should affect so great a potentate as the Emperor
of the French," (Laughter.) On another occasion he said,
though not in this house, " I am still of opinion that we
have nothing but enmity and bad faith to look for from the
Emperor of the French ;" and he went on to say that though
he had been laughed at, he still adopted the patriotic cha-
racter of " Tear'em," and was still at his post. (Great
laughter.) When the hon. and learned gentleman came back
from his expedition to Cherbourg, does the house recollect
the language which he used on that occasion ?—which, if it
expresses the sentiments he felt, I think ho might have been
content to have withheld. Referring to the salutation
between the Emperor of the French and the Queen of these
kingdoms, he said, " When I saw his perjured lips touch
that hallowed cheek"—and now the hon. and learned gen-
tleman has been to Paris, introduced there by the hon.
member for Sunderland- (laughter)—and he has become,
as it were, in the palace of the French Emperor, a co-
conspirator with him in dragging this country into a
policy which I maintain is as hostile to its interests as it
would be degrading to its honour. (Hear.) Then the
high contracting parties, I suspect, are not agreed, because
I will say this, in justice to the French Emperor, that there
has never come to him. in public or from his Ministers, nor
has anything been written, that has been tinctured in the
smallest degree with that bitter hostility which the hon. and
learned gentleman has constantly exhibited to the United
States of America and their people. France, if not wise in
this matter, is at least not unfriendly. The hon. and learned
gentleman, in my opinion, I am sure is not unfriendly, and
I believe he is not wise. (Laughter.) But on that subject,
without speaking disrespectfully of that great potentate,
who has taken the hon. and learned gentleman into his con-
fidence, I should say that the Emperor runs the risk of be-
ing far too much represented in this house. We have got
two, I will not call them "envoys extraordinary," but
"most extraordinary." (Laughter.) If report speaks true,
even they aro not all. Why, the hon. member for King's
Conn), (Mr. P. Hennessy) came back the other day from
Paris, and there were whispers about that he had seen the
great ruler of France, and that he could tell everybody in
the most confidential way—(laughter)—that the Emperor
was ready to make a spring at Russia for the sake of de-
livering Poland, and only waited for a word from the Prime
Minister of England. I do not understand the policy of the