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London, England, 1839-07-30 00:00:00

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igat he bed never made use of the expressions that had
>en attributed to him by the Hon. Member for Newry.
lie had never said that he would pass by what he had
4ated with contempt. What be had stated was, that he
ould take no notice of the observations which had been
made by the Hon. Member.
Mr. ELLIS thought there ought to have been some
intimaticn given of the third reading of the Bill.
After a few observations from Mr. F. FRENCH,
Mr. B ROT lIE RTON said that what had taken place,
showed how salutary it was to adjourn at twelve o'clock.
Sir E. SUGDEN said that Bills of equal importance
had been passed through in the same manner. After
a great contest in that House he happened to hear
about one o'clock one morning the words " now read a
third time." On inquiry he was told it was the Copyhold
Enfranchisement Bill.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He im
mediately interposed to prevent the third reading taking
place, and the Honourable Member for Honiton, who,
he believed, had charge of the Bill, postponed the third
reading. But on the very first opportunity, land when
he (Sir Edward Sugden) was absent, the Bill was,
at a late hour of the night, and just under the same cir-
cumstances, read a third time and passed.—( Hear, hear.)
A more important Bill, affecting as it did a great portion of
the property of this country, never passed the House, and yet
that Bill was never discussed, and had gone to the other
House of Parliament without the opinion of that House
having been expressed.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that ample nctice
had been given that the Bill would be read a third time
on the Wenesday evening. It was read soon after eleven
o'clock, when he believed the Right Honourable
and Learned Gentleman was employed at the great
festival in the City.—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—but
that was not a sufficient excuse why the Bill should have
been further postponed.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was present when an understand
jag was come to one night at a late hour, that his side
of the House were not to offer any obstruction to the pro-
gress of Bills that were not contested, and that the Govern-
meut should not press any Bill in respect of which notice of
opposition had been given.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. W. HOPE had watched the Copyhold Enfran-
chisement Bill very closely, and there certainly was an un-
derstanding at one stage of the Bill, there should be a full
discussion. That Bill certainly had been hurried through
the House, and with so much haste was it got through
Committee, that the clause for giving salaries to the Corn-
missioners was absolutely left out.—( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) When the Bill was called on for a third re ad-
ing on Wednesday evening, he (Mr. Hope) was present,
and stated that many Members wished to discuss the Bill,
but the Honourable and Learned Attorney-General
begged of the Hon. and Learned Member for Honiton,
(Mr. Stewart) on no account to let slip that opportunity
of passing the Bill.—( Loud cries of " Herr, hear.")
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said no one in the
House offered any objection to the Bill. The most ample
opportunity was afforded to the Honourable and Learned
Member opposite (Mr. Hope), of making any observations,
had he thought fit to have done so. He did not do so, nor
did he divide the House upon it, arid there was not the
silghtest reason for complaining of the manner in which
the Bill had been passed.--( Hear, hear.)
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said that a very
inconvenient practice had grown up, and was persevered in, of
bringing on measures at such time in the morning, that
it was impossible for Members, even if they were prevent,
to pay proper attention to the subject. On Friday last,
he had directed the attention of the Noble Lord to the
Bastardy Clauses in the Poor-law Bill, and he was told
by the Noble Lord that there was not the slightest chance
of the Poor-law Continuance Bill being proceeded with
tbat evening. However it was proceeded with that even-
ing, but at a very late hour.—( Hear, hear.) He was ex.
ceedingly friendly to the principle of the Bill, but still he
regretted that the Bill was proceeded with without his
being present, as he had wished to have suggested ye.
rious points, but which would not at all have delayed its
progress. He did not accuse the Government of decep-
tion, but he thought it was inconvenient to bring on mea-
sures at so late an hour.
Mr. B ROT HE RTON hoped the House would benzin
mind that this was one of the ill effects of midnight le-
gislation.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—The Noble Lord having
referred to him, would first observe with regard to the
practice which the Noble Lord had stated had grown up,
that he ( Lord Jelin Russell) thought the practice now
was far less common than formerly. Formerly the prac-
tice was carried to a much greater extent of proceeding
with Bills at a late hour. With regard to the Bill to
which the Noble Lord had alluded, he (Lord J. Russell)
bad understood that there was a general concurrence on
the part of the House, that the Bill should be read a se-
cond time thaf. evening. The Noble Lord had stated he
did not mean to oppose the second reading ; and he (Lord
J. Russell) thought it would be going too far to postpone
every stage ef every Bill merely because a Member who
had observations to make on a Bill, but did not oppose it,
was not present.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord G. SOMERSET had left on Friday night in
consequence of the Noble Lord saying it was improbable
the Bill would be read a second time that night.
.

IRISH ES I'IMATES.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said it would be extremely
convenient to many Honourable Members to know
when the Irish Estimates were likely to be brought on.
Mr. BARING observed, it was difficult to say when the
House would allow him to do so ; but he would endeavour
to fix a particular day, and give notice to the House.
POSTAGE.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition
from the paper manufacturers and wholesale and retail sta-
tioners of Edinburgh and its vicinity, stating that they ap-
proved of the uniform penny postage, but that they disap-
proved of stamped envelopes or stamped paper, and prayed
the House that the same facilities of sending letters, either
paid or unpaid by post might still b C afforded.
Sir E. SUGDEN presented a petition to the same
effect from the stationers of Ripon.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the
Mechanics' Institution of Dublin in favour of the Govern-
ment plan o+ penny postage.
TREATMENT OF UNTRIED PRISONERS.
On the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
moving the oder of the Day for the third reading of the
Postage Duties Bill,
Mr. LEADER said he hoped the House would not
object to taking into consideration the petition of the
prisoners confined in Warwick Gaol, and the allegations of
the Magistrates in answer to that petition. It would occupy
but a few minutes, and as the character of the Magistrates
and prisoners were et stake, it was necessary this matter
should be disposed nf.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said,
the Orders of the Day took precedence of notices of
motion, and therefore he did not see howlthey could v"..s'at
the orders and rules of the House by hearing the on.
Gentleman's motion first.
Mr. LEADER observed, that the Noble Lord had
violated the rules of the House one day last week, by
moving an Order of the Dav on the the only notice
night that was left to private Members. He hoped the
House would allow him to make his statement on behalf
of the petitioner...
Sir EARD LE Y WILMOT wou'd add his supplication
to that of the Hor. Member for Westminster, that this
metter might be al o red to he disposed of at once. He
had been kept in ovn in consequence of this notice of
motion, although 1 e ought that day to have been on the
Grand Jury at Warwick. The discussion could not oc-
cupy the House long.
Mr. LEADER—WouId the Noble Lord allow it to come
on before the next Order of the Day or before the Supply ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL saw no reason for setting
aside the Orders of the House for this particular petition.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE inquired what Bills the Noble
Lord meant to proceed with that evening.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that after the Postage
Bill he proposed proceeding with, the Public Works (Ire-
land) Bill. If that did not create any discussion, his Hon.
Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would then
bring in the Bills relating to the Irish Banks. He also
wislicd to proceed with th© Poor-law Act Continuance
Bill, and the Birmingham Police Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL begged to state that he should
oppose the Irish Banking Bills in every stage.
Mr. LAW inquired when it was the intention of the
Government to go on with the Metropolitan Police Courts
Bill ?
Mr. FOX MAULE.—On Wednesday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that after the Bills he
bad mentioned, he proposed the House should go into a
Qamruittee of Supply.
Mr. WA KL E Y asked if the grievances of the people
were to be discussed at all in that House ?—( Hear, hear.)
Last Tuesday night the Noble Lord persisted in pressing
this Birmingham Police Bill, and setting aside all notices,
so that the petition of Lovett and Collins could not be
brought forward. In the House of Lords the debate upon
that petitidn—in the hereditary branch of the Legislature—
occupied seven columns and a half of the newspapers,
while his Hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, in
presenting it to this House, was- interrupted half a dozen
times, and the observations occupied only half a column.
It was right that the people should understand whether
their grievances should be discussed in this House or in
the House of Lords.—( Hear, hear.) Under the present
regulations it was impossible to obtain redress in this
House.—(Hear, hear.) So many obstacles were opposed
to the bringing on notices of Members, or to the discussion
of grievances on petitions—( Hear, hear, from Lord Cas-
tlereagh)—the people might as well " whistle to the
winds" as conic to this House for redress ; and for his part
he hoped his Hon. Friend the Member for Westminster
would bring his motion on upon the next Order of the
Day.
Lord CASTLEREAGH wished it to be understood
that petitions in that House could not be debated on pre-
sentation ; in the House of Loads they could.—(Hear,
hear.)

Mr. DIVETT thought the general opinion out of doors
was, that they talked a vast deal, and did very little.—
( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Sir E. WIL MOT wished the motion to come on as
soon as possible, to vindicate the character of the Warwick.
shire magistrates.
Colonel SIBTHORP suggested that a large board
churches,
stating bo stuck up, like those hung up at parish
stating what business was to be brought on each night.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. D. BROWN said the motion tight have been
discussed, while they were disputing upon it. Why did
not the Hon. Member for Westminster move the adjourn-
ment of the House.—(Roars of laughter.)
Mr. LEADER finally said he would not interfere on
the Order next coming on, but would persist on the Bin-
snigham Police Bill.
POSTAGE DUTIES' BILL.
On the Order of the Day being read for the third read-
ing of the Postage Duties' Bill,
Sir R. PEEL said this Bill gave full auqiority, as he
understood, to the Treasury for effecting the object which
they had in view, either by applying a stamp to the letters,
or by means of an envelope, or by making use of stamped
coves. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman if
he had as yet been able to give such consideration to the
subject as would enable him to state whether a gelieral or
a partial experiment would be made before the House
again met. This was a subject of the utmost importance

because, if, in consequence of the measures which should
be adopted, any diminution should take place in the se-
curity for the delivery of letters, it would act as a new en-
couragement to an illicit transmission : for although the re-
duction in the rates of postage would act as an encourage-
ment to the transmission of letters through the Post office,
yet if, in consequence, any insecurity should arise in the
delivery of them, the illicit transmission of them would
necessarily be the consequence. The subject was of the
utmost importance, and he wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman whether, before the Parliament met next Ses-
sion, any experiment, either partial or general, would have
been made.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Hon. Gentleman had asked him two questions.
One, whether before Parliament again met any experi-
ment, either general or partial, would be made in relation
to this subject. In reply to tbi§ question he could state 1
that he certainly did anticipate that, before Parliament
again met, some experiments would be made on this sub-
ject. Had he not matured his plans so far' as to be able
to make the experiment before the Parliament again met,
he felt he should not have been acting fairly either by the
House or the public in asking them to pass the prevent
Bill. At the same time, it would not do to be precipitate.
It was of the utmost importance that no diminution should
take place in the security for the delivery of letters, not only
on account of the reasons stated by the Right Hon. Baro-
net, but on account of the interests of the different com-
mercial interests connected with the subject. A petition
bad been presented from his Hon. and Learned Friend the
Attorney General from the paper-makers and stationers,
showing how their particular trades would be affected if
the experiment were made in one particular way. He
could not say that he bad so fully considered the subject as
to have made up his mind as to the precise mode in which
this experiment was to be tried. He thought that the
experiments that they were going to adopt might be
carried into effect without any difficulty to either the paper
or the stationery trade.
Mr. WARBURTON thought the new plan would
give greater security for the delivery of letters than they
had at present. t
Lord G. SOMERSET believed that newspapers a
present were very improperly delivered.
Sir E. SUGDEN said that some new mode ought to
be adopted with respect to the transmission of money let-
ters. The present mode was extremely insecure.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Money Order Office had now been made part of
the Post Office, and therefore the greatest security was
given.
Sir E. 'SUGDEN knew of several instances where
money had been taken out of letters under the present
arrangement, and he thought the sooner some alteration
was made the better.

-Lord CASTLEREAGH wished to know what ar-
rangement had been made with respect to the transmission
of newspapers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that newspapers would still go as they had hitherto done
free, provided they had covers open at both ends.
Colonel SIBTHORP was anxious to know what tax
was to be imposed in the place of the great reduction that
was to be made.

Mr. WALL ACE said as to sending money by post, it
should be recollected that at present double postage was
charged. The plan of registration had been tried five or
six years in Ireland, at an expense to the Post-office per.
fectly trifling. And it was worthy of notice that the
letters might be registered, by a scheme which had been
suggested, without any outward mark upon the letters.
The whole machinery of the post-office was in preparation
for putting the plan in course of experiment, and under
the able superintendence of the Noble Lord the Member
for Totnes, would doubtless, succeed.
The Bill was then read a third time.

On the question that it do pass—
Sir R. PE EL said it was rather alarming—when it
was answered to the fears of those who apprehended in-
security of the letters, that they would be as secure as
papers now were—it was rather alarming to find that the
papers were now more insecure than the letters—( Hear)
—though there was a security for the papers which did
not exist as to letters, for few persons did not expect the
newspapers, whereas, the letter was often unexpected—
the person not receiving the paper would go and inquire
after it, but numbers, especially the poor, did not know
when a letter was to come, and consequently would not
be able to tell their loss. Care should be taken that no
additional insecurity was admitted as to the delivery of
letters, which would operate much more strongly than at
present. He should not have objected to first trying the
plan on the twopenny post in London, before the Govern-
ment came to Parliament for the more general measure—
( Hear, hear)--but he did object, in the present state of
the finances, to passing a measure calculated to cause great
additional embarrassment, and vesting the Government
with enormous discretionary powers, almost superseding
the authority of Parliament. However, having done his
duty in opposing the Bill, he would oppose no further ob-
struction to its passing. He would only sugest to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer the importance of not throw-
ing greater difficulties, in the way of getting the stamps than
were absolutely unavoidable. The trouble of asking for the
stamp would be considerable. Then as to the registration,
was it to be universal ? If so, would it not be inconvenient
to have to wait till a letter:was registered in every case—
if it were to be partial, would not the rich be paying for
registration, and the poor go without it ?—( Hear, hear.).

Mr. WA R BURTON esked if there were not, under the
present system, continual complaints of the non-delivery
of newspapers and money letters ?—( Hear, hear.) There
was no general plan to which objections might not be
offered. As to the making a partial experiment of the
twopenny post, it would not afford the means of ascer-
taing the real effect of the plan, for en the twopenny post
it was as one to two only, while the general post was as
one to six.--(Hear, hear.) He wished to express his
hopes that no partial experiment would be made--that the
whole system would be fairly tried.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. ING LIS said the experiment had in fact already
been tried, in respect to the army, of a penny post, and
the result had been a most lamentable defalcation in the
revenue. And if the public generally, after the adoption
' of tins plan, did not write more than in proportion to the
soldiers, there would not be more than one-fourth of the
present amount of letters ; the Post-office would not pro-
duce more than 00,000/. instead of 2,000,000/. and up-
wards, as at present. This was a terribly perilous experi-
ment to play with the finances of the country.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought it much more advisable that the plan
should be first tried in London till next Session.

Mr. F. BARING said he agreed with the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bridport, that the experiment of the London two-
penny post would be a most unfair way of trying the effi-
cacy of the plan._( Hear, hear.) But he did not think
it ought at once to be considered that the plan must simul-
taneously be carried into operation on a certain day through
the whole country. He saw no difficulty in bringing it
into operation first in certain parts of the country, before
the universal application of it.
Mr. MACKINNON was about to propose his amend-
ment, to the effect that each public department should pay
its own postage, thus doing away with official franking,
when

The CHANCELLORof the EXCHEQUER begged
to say, that he was anxious to abolish all official franl in;,
but did not wish to pledge himself to any particular course
till he had consulted the carious public departments. See-
ing-, therefore, that he quite adopted the principle of the
lion, Geritlemal.'s proposition, and only doubted its con-
sistency with the interests of the public service, and seeing
that this Bill would only last till next Session, perhaps the
Hon. Member would for the present withdraw his motion.
Mr. M AC KINNON assented.

Sir G. CLERK hoped it would not be attempted—
under the power of bringing the plan first into partial ope-
ration—to give to lines of communication between different
towns, greater advantages, by having the plan earlier ap-
plied than others?—( Cries of " No, no.") Nothing could
be more improper than that the Government shoulcl have
the power of selecting what lines of communication should
liave the benefit of the plan.—( Hear.)
Mr. F. BARING said nothing was further from his
intention than to give advantages to one district over

another.—(l-12ar, h'ear.)
Mr. G. P MER said, as many Members had no con

fidence in the measure, it might be satisfactory to know,
whether, if the experiment failed, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer could readily revert to the existing system.
The Bill then passed.

PUBLIC' WORKS (IRELAND) PILL.
On the Order of the Day for the third reading of this
Bill,

Col. WOOD asked if then were any limits to the sum
which the Exchequer might issue under the measure.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
there was the best possible limitation—to the amount
fixed by a former Bill, 50,0001.
Mr. F. FRENCH inquired if the Bill were to be
conformable to the rrovisions of the Ist and 2d Victoria,
chap. 21, or 31.) To some of the provisions of the
Bill he decidedly objected, especially to that which
enabled the Government to come again upon a County
for money which had been received by the Treasurer, who
had subsequently become a defaulter, the Government
having neglected to use the powers which they possessed,
for compelling a speedy accounting into their hands.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
it was the object of this Bill to conform to the provisions
of the Act of Ist Victoria• and that the Government had
taken the strongest powers for recovering the monies
received by the County Treasurers—over whom, if not
appointed by the Crown, the Government had, however,
no control.
Mr. F. FRENCH said there were one or two Acts
of George IV. enabling the Government to recover the
County funds from treasurers within twenty days from the
commencement of each Assizes, under penalties.
The Bill was read a third time and passed.
BIRMINGHAM POLICE BILL.

Lor JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day
for the Committee upon this Bill.
Sir R. PEEL said, if the suggestion which he should
now offer, were adopted by the Government, it would be
necessary materially to alter the Bill ; if rejected, he
should in Committee have the opportunity of recording his
opinion by taking the sense of the House upon its specific
introduction. In a matter of this nature, however, the
Ministers of the Crown were best able to settle details.
The proposition be would submit to the Noble Lord was,
whether in the present state of the Town Council, it would
not be the best course, to appoint a stipendiary Magistrate,
to have the superintendence of the police of Birmingham.
It was his intention to give his general support to the
proposition of the Noble Lord, notwithstanding the ad-
vancedforward._(periola.)
of the Session at which it had been brought
the Noble Lord in hishpwroapsosal
proposition his
onforin at enn tion
increaseto s ui
np ptohret
rathialitt,larger increase in
military force ;
Nobleand he e
Lord wouldprop
onsoetdsah
stillshrink k fro the avowal
the military force, he should have been prepared to sup-
port him in that proposition, from the conviction he felt
when he looked around him of the necessity of that in-
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wasla tiopn as slos iont
possessionspassing
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fisouncrl
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asbauirmgdrpecanaist
which might be imposed upon it he considered it would

be wise policy not to let Parliament settle without at least
securing the means of obtaining an increase, should such
be found necessary.—( Cheers.) It was his intention also
to support the Noble Lord, notwithstanding the lateness of
the Session, in the measure he had brought forward, to
enable country magistrates, in case the necessity should
arise, to provide a civil force and place it under more effi-
cient control than it is placed at present. he deeply re-
gretted the Noble Lord had not wrought forward that pro-
position at an earlier period of the Session. He agreed
with the Noble Lord in opinion that it was not advisable
to have recourse to measures of coercion, until such should
become unavoidable—but he did not consider this a 3 a mea-
sure of coercion, as all classes were deeply interested in
the maintenance of tranquillity, and the power
of an efficient civil force for the maintenance of that
tranquillity, could not be regarded as a measure of coercion.
At the same time be could not but express his regreat that
the Noble Lord bad not brought the measure forward
earlier in the Session, nevertheless it was his intention,
overlooking- all party considerations, to give the measure
his support which the Noble Lord had now brought for-
ward, because the appointment of a police force for that
town would give general satisfaction. It was a town of the
greatest importance, the capital of an extensive district,
and the district and the town acted and reacted on each
other. All the inhabitants of the district were deeply in-
terested in the maintenance of the tranquillity of the town,
and all, he thought, ought to contribute to its sup-
port.—( Hear, hear.) There were then plans proposed
respecting the police. His proposition was that it should
be a measure of temporary duration, and that in organising
the police of Birmingham the same plan should be fol.
lowed as had been followed in organising the police of
Westminster, Southwark, and Lambeth, and which had
given such universal satisfaction, by exercising the powers
with mildness and discretion, not as means of tyranny and
oppression, but merely for the protection of life and pro.
perty, and the preservation of the public peace. He, a
political opponent, would ask the Noble Lord, as Secre-
sary of State and conservator of the public peace of the
country, to apply the same principle to Birmingham, which
had been so successfully applied to Westminster, South-
wark, and Lambeth. But it might be said that Westmin-
ster, Southwark, and Lambeth, were not in possession of
Municipal Corporations, but the City of Dublin was,and there
the police was on the same principle, and even the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin himself, the great advo-
cate of Municipal Institutions, had admitted that be should
regret to see the management of the police transferred to
the corporation, even should that corporation be remo-
delled. If they acted on this principle with regard to our
ancient Corporation why should they not apply it to a
Corporation of recent date ? now so convinced were the
Government of the advantage of the application of this
principle, that at the commencement of this Session they
had wished to adopt the principle which had been so suc-
cessfully applied to the police of Westminster for five or
six years to the City of London, and though they gave up
the appointments of the police to the City of London,
chiefly on account of its great antiquity, and yet they had
shown their approval of the principle, and although they
had, unfortunately in his opinion, permitted the Corpora-
tion to possess the power of appointing the officers, yet the
Government had reserved to itself the power of dismissing
them. If they therefore approved of the principle in the
case of the City of London, he begged to act on it in the
case of Birmingham, which had asked for their interference
and applied for assistance. The case was a special
one, and he believed that the appointment of the
officers by the Government would give much greater
satisfaction than leaving the appointments in the
hands of the Town Council. He believed there was a
local power, the Commissioners of Streets, composed of men
of all parties, which possessed the power of appointing a
police, and levying a rate for its maintenance, and to which,
as he understood, the Hon. Member for Birmingham,
wished the appointment to be confided.
Mr. 'l'. A TTWO OD had said he wished the nomina-
tion to be transferred to the Corporation.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman had
said that there was no necessity for any Act on the subject,
and therefore he would not object to the Commissioners
of Streets proceeding on the execution of their duties. He
objected to this plan because when the Town Council
was first nominated, an application was made against the
incorporation of the town by a number of the rate payers
nearly equal in number and in the amount of rates they
paid to those who petitioned in favour of it. A rate to
be levied by the Town Council was the only security
they had for the repayment of the money to be advanced--
now high authority had entertained doubts as to the power
of the Town Council to levy the rates.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—They are em-
powered to do so by the present Bill.
Sir R. PEEL—Then by so doing the existence of
these doubts is implied, and in what position did this
place the Corporations of Manchester and Bolton ? The
doubt was acknowledged, and the authority of the Bir-
mingham Corporation propped up by this measure, while
the other Corporations were left unprovided for: Why
give the Corporations this power to levy t Police-rate to
repay the advance?—why not rely on the common law ?
He would read the t4eese the opinion of Sir William
Follett on a case.: submitted to hint by the over-
seers, who were doubtful if they ought to obeli
a precent of the Town Council imposing a rate. He
would quote the opinion of Sir Willi:sm. I °ilea respect.
ing the demand that had been made by the Town Council
of Birmingham en the overseers for rates, and the refusal
of the latter to pay them ; r.:ld before reading the extract,
he would remind them that this authority was the security
they would have to rely on for the repayment of the money
to he advanced. Ile trusted that it woeld tend te el-noss
that the disposition of the police force :bad the raising of
the rates, which the Hon Gentleman opposite proposed to
vest in the Town Council, had been made in haste, and
w About dire consideration. The opinion of Sir W. Follett,
that the question raised as to the authority vested in the
municipal authorities to levy rates, was one (Attie greatest
doubt. The Corporation and Town Cotneiltof Birmingham
had been formed by the statute and 6, William IV.
chap. 76, differently fvo,:i the ancient corporations of towns.
True, these atathoritics might be appointed by the prero-
gative of the Crown ; but then more important authorities
could only be conferred by the Legisliture, and thong
been omitted in the 141st sec. of the nth and William
IV., and the Ist of Victotia, cep. ri`, which did not give
the Corporation the peteer of taxing the borough. He
therefore recommended the Town Council to apply to the
Court of Queen's Bench for a mandamus a, ainst the over-
seeten that the question might then be decided. This opinion
showed that there was great doubt whether the Town
Council had power to tax the borough or to divHe it into
wards. The same doubt viveld of ecerse apply to the
authority of the Town .r2otaneil to levy police rates.
Under those cirsnamstances he ( Sir Robert Peel)
recommended. the Noble Lord to interfere, and, as in the
case of Oablin, to place the management of this important
affair, for the present, in the hands of the isesteetary of
State. The political differences end the animosities that
distracted the magistrate. !,7ele an additional argument for
this interference, The appointments made by the Town
Council wee toot likely to afford satisfaction or confidence
to the great body of the public. The Town Council had
not filled an office with a single member of that party
who held what are called Conservative opinions—and
without disparagement to others, he would say, that con-
sidering the „neoperty and respectability possessed by
members of that body in that town—he would say that
this systematic exclusion of those from all share In the
local government, wculd not be practically satisfactory to
the inhabitants at large.es-(1-1ear, hear.) From all that
had taken place nince 1830—from the language that had
been held--from the animosities that had prevailed—from
the combinations that had been formed, and the great im-
portance they now assumed—from the political measures
that had been co-operated in by certain parties in that
town, on these grounds he felt bound strongly to advise
the Noble Lord to interfere for a time at least, and not
to permit the management of a police force to vest in the
hands ofany local body. It was realty natural, that, con-
stituted as the Town Council was, they could not satisfy
the public.—( Hear.) They had appointed to important
offices persons who had taken an active part in the pro-
ceedings of the Political Union.--( Hear.) Surely this
must show that those who made those appoint-
ments could not manage a police force with ef-
ficiency or public confidenee.—( Hear, hear. hear.)
Was it a fact that a Delegate to the Chartists had been ap-
Bointed to the office of Registrar of the Mayor's Court in
irmingham ?--( Hear, hears) He put it to them as men
of sense, whether they could entrust the administration of
the police force to men who had appointed to the office of
Registrar of the Mayor's Court a Delegate to the National
Conuention, and one who lately used the following lane
guage. (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read an extract
from a speech of Mr. Edmonds already reported in The
Sun. It was to the effect that he had suffered and acted
in the cause of the people for twenty years. No one more
strongly contended than he that the people had a right
to resort to physical force to redress their wrongs if
moral force should be found ineffective. But• they
should not name a day in order that their enemies
should not take advantage of them.) What did they
think of such a man being appointed clerk of the peace?—
(Laughter, and Hear.) Appointed clerk of the peace to
the town council of Birmingham I Was that a wise ap-
pointment, or one likely to be exercised satisfactorily to the
inhabitants at large ?—( Hear, hear.) But he would fur-
ther ask the Noble Lord whether it was true that the clerk
of the peace had been lately engaged in the defence of the
Chartists before the Magistrates ?—( Hear, hear.) He
( Sir R. Peel) had been positively assured that on the day
on which the riots broke out, on the 15th of July, when
property to the value of 3,0001. or 4,0001. was exposed to
destruction—and when the town was full of a sense of dan-
ger—that then the clerk of the peace was agent to the
Chartist prisoners 2—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. Ed.
monds had belonged to the Political Union, and
he would ask was this conduct likely to remove
the impression that the Chartists had been instigated and
encouraged by the members of that body ?—( Hear, hear.)
Thus one Chartist was clerk of the peace, another was
they
Registrar
that on the
of the Mayor's
principle
the
TownW hat
Councilassurance
wouldha d
sae
notar
The int
Political Union might highs and subordinatem htnw e
officerse irpuiat
nthdepe olice
forcethe
Chartists, but nevertheless on them must rest the moral if
not the legal responsibility of having given them birth.
The Hon. Member for Birmingham in his address to the
Political Union spike of peace, law, and order, and then said
it was the duty of the people to combine their efforts—
that they must gather means and be placed under leaders
and teachers—until they could precipitate their moral in-
fluence in one overwhelming mass. With these views he
commended the 49 Delegates of the industrious classes—
" It is only in this way," said the Hon. Gentleman, " that
we can obtain union—through union we shall obtain li-
berty—through liberty we shall obtain prosperity. We
must obey and support the 49 Delegates by every legal
means." Now he (Sir R. Peel) apprehended the 49 De-
legates had disappointed the expectations of the Hon.
Member, and that they had far exceeded the power which
the Hon. Gentleman proposed to entrust to them. The
Hon. Gentleman might now repent the advice be had
given—he might now consider the course which they bad
taken was tantamount to a dismemberment of his own
body, and the annihilation of his own political strength ;
but he never would believe the Hon. Gentleman could
divest himself of the moral responsibility which belonged
to the inculcation of such doctrines,—(Hear, hear.) His

object in quoting these passages was to show that there
would be no confidence in a public force if Political
Unionists and Chartists were to become a portion of the
body.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) had discharged
his duty by delivering these sentiments. lle had not de-
livered them for the purpose of obstructing the Government
in the adoption of those measures they might think mess-
sary for strengthening their hands, but because he con-
sidered that they recommended a measure more calculated
to provide for the public peace. He agreed vith the
Noble Lord that they ought not to show any feverish dis-
trust, but that they ought to have great confidence in the
power and ordinary law of this country. He had a strong,
belief that, encouraged by the forbearance of the Govern-
ment, the loyalty, the property, and the respectability of
this country would crush every effort of the Chartists to
disturb the public peace. He did not believe that this
country was so debased and so cowardly that it would per-
mit measures of violence to prevail and to oppose the
authority of the law. At the same time, while he
was perfectly willing to coincide in the forbearance
of the Government, if carried to its legitimate extent, he
would implore them not by any act of silence to appear to
tanetioning their combinations. He implored them not
to pass Acts which might enable delegates and members
of political unions to fill offices intended for the mainte-
nance of the public peace.—( Hear, hear.) He thought
forbeerenee and confidence in the loyalty of the people
just, but the moment they gave any sanction to such doc-
trines as physical force, by not taking precautions against
them, that moment would they become parties to the de-
lusion practised by the instruments of agitators; they would
then forfeit the confidence etf the people of England and
they would dispirit the loyal. Therefore to any party
who had abused its trust, they ought at once to say, " no
considerations of political partizanship shall induce us to
invest you with authority necessary for the maintenance of
the public peace."—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCHOLE FIE LD hoped the House Wonld patiently
bear with him for a few minutes while he made an obseat'etion
or two in justice to his osvn town, and to those on whom
the Right Hon. Bart. had vented his displeasure, namely,
the Town Council. It was true the Town Council were
parties opposed to the Tories ; they might be called Ra-
dicals, perhaps—(a laugh)—but they were freely and
unanimously chosen, and he did not know any charge
could be brought against the ratepayers for having elected
party men.--( Hear, hear.) It was a fair fight, and no one
could say the Tories did not do all they could to succeed.
—( Hear, hear.) He felt convinced there was in that
Council men as honest as any who sat in that House.
They might be Radicals; they might be Liberals; they
might not have so much money in their pockets as many
who sat in the House of Commons, but all the members of
the Town Council whom he knew, he could state were
as fit to wield the power of the Town Council as any
one present.—( Hear, hear.) When a choice was made of
officers there was nothing unusual in one party excluding
another. The principles of the party to which the Right
Hon. Baronet belonged had been exclusion in tato. When
what was called the " high party " had power, a more de-
termined system of exclusion never existed, and he could
mention a society in Birmingham into which no one would
be admitted who had the slightest spark of liberality about
him. They excluded every man who was not a most
dogged disciple of their creed.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Baronet had expressed his surprise at so imperfect a charter
having been given. That had been a puzzle to the people
of Birmingham, for of what use was a charter unless it
gave the Corporation power to levy rates. The moment
they proceeded to levy a rate, the Tories said, " No,
no !--levy a rate as you will, you shall not be
paid." So that they had a chatter, bet they had not
money, They bad not been wise in their generation, nor
had the Noble Lord, because lie had certainly been defi-
cient in the money matter; and Government should back
their friends if they wished their friends to back them.—
( Loud cheers, and Hear, hear.) He objected to a system
of gendarmerie being established in lairminghare, and he
v,ould neceste pack Op his all and leave, than belong to a
town that was said not to be fit to take care of its own
concerns.—(Hear, hear.) He had no objection to receive
a police force in the constitutional shape, but he should be
dishonest if he did not express his belief that the Town
Conceit would not be willing to pay over the money for
others to have the appointments. He could state
that race would be as fitiely and htseestly chosen by the
pteaent Town Council as they would by any Council
of Tories there or anywhere else.—( Laughter.) They
would exercise a conscientious judgment, and would not
make an improper appointment of any kind. The Right
Hon. Baronet had stated that appointments had been
made of which he disapproted, and had stuated the in-
stance of Mr. Vdmotiels. tt *as not ion.' him to say that
that gentleman was not obnoxious to many persons, and
no doubt he was to the Right Honourable Baronet
and his party, because he had always opposed them.
(Loud laughter.) But it was much to his
credit to say he had reet with the reanimous
appointment of the eoetetal.-eae( licai-e hear, from the depo-
sition.) There were as honest men in that Council as
there ware in that House; they honestly believed Mr.
Edmonds was entitled to the appointment, and had he
( Mr. Scholefield) been one of them,h,emsil;
juildii6htaisp:eerghiavpesn,
him his vote. He rniebt perhaps hate tcrntseitted himself
in defending ens or the teTheetisets, i
haVe been good taste, hut he (Mr. Scholefield) had
seen the Attorney- General defend people who ought
to have been hanged.—(Great laughter.) The Learn.
ed Attorney- General had received a very large
fee to defend a man who had practised enormous cruelties
at sea, and through the Attoteey-riseerel ha had rot off.—
( Renewed fattgliteie ) Hut he believed it was part of the
exiling of professional men to obey those who might com-
mand their services.—( Hear; hear.) He did not see that
Mr. Edmonds had gone much out of his way as a profes-
sional man in appearing fora
Iperson before trial, and who,
therefore, must be priptcac to L^ lncotett. He had
been Infor,Ar.d tlAe In"Cencliaries could not be found.—
, (Hear, hear, hear.) There could be very little doubt
, that the disturbances had been fanned by both parties.
and at this moment there was a striving between Tories and
Chartists against the new Corporation, a most unilateral
one to he sure,—(litar 'rho Right Von. Bart.
also tiptil;.s of, the great bpfloS:i:Oil in the 1:own to the
Col-psiration. Doubtless there was.—( Hear hear.) They
were opposed by persons who had opposed the Reform
Bill, and every species of R. form. There was nothieg
new in that; and they had taken advantage of the late
disturbances in Birmingham. He begged pardon for hav-
ing trespassed on the attention of the House so long,
but he could assure the House that no one n-as more
inclined te tappi,eee physiaal fonee than be was, knowing that
the people would never obtain their just rights by any such
means.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. ATTWOOD thanked the Honourable Baronet for
the kind notice he had taken of his humble endeavours in
the public cause, and would feel obliged if the Right
1-10noe.ra.ble itait6raq -b;rotaid continue his notice.— ( A
laugh.) He had nothing to be ashamed of; but on the
contrary, be felt pleased at what he had done, and he only
hoped that the whole of time letter to which the Right
Honourable Baronet had referred, would be printed in the
same way that the extract :tallith he had read weuld to-mor.
roes molting. The misfortune was, that he had uneven
been able to obtain any letter cr any speech of his out of
that House published, either in
—( Laughter.) In cnn reepect, he found himself singularly
tthhee Tory
Radical
papers.papers, or
in the Whig papers, or in
Conservative. All the three factions in that House hated
each other with a cordial hatred, and disagreed with each
other on every subject, except one, and it was most siegu •
lap that that one should be a war on the credit and cur-
rency of this country.—(Great laughter.) The public
press had always burked his humble labours in the public
cause.—(Renewed laughter.) He acknowledged that
he did originate the 4P Delegates, and he believed if jus-
tice had been clone to his humble labours, instead of dis-
cord now raging throughout the country between master
and man, the masses would have been brought to bear
properly on that House. It was not by putting down a
mob here, or a mob there, or by creating a rural
police, a constabulary force, or a gendarmerie, or
an army, that the mortal cancer which was eating into
the heart of England would be eradicated. They might
pnue t
eau
rpel.as t Ihi
ye r and axpl\a,sit.ehr
atdl e r4e but they
0,0,
000 soldiers would effect
at
the
time of the revolution, but he would tell the Right Hon.
Baronet that 400,000 would not be sufficient to carry his
Currency Bill through all its murderous operations. Would
the Noble Lord recruit his army from the Chartists? How
was he to increase the army ? Would he recruit in towns
in which nine out of ten of the working men were Char-
tists? Would he recruit from the villages in which nine out
of ten of the labourers were rick-burners ?—( Oh, oh.)
He could tell them that the hearts of the labourers cf
England were all alienated from that House, and that
nine ont of ten, when they heard of a fire felt a melan-
choly pleasure in going to look at it.—(Renewed cries
of " Oh, oh.") Hon. Gentlemen might cry " Oh, oh,"
but let them go and inquire among the labourers as he
had done. Then, how would they recruit the army ?
They had Chartists in the great towns, and rick-burners
in the villages, and he would implore the House to apply
itself to giving comfort to the people. Let them not lay
the flattering unction to their souls, that there was no-
thing the matter—let them not think that he (Mr.
Attwood) with his feeble voice, had been the wizard that
had raised all this hubbub in the face of nations. He
had been merely an instrument put up as it were
to show the wise Statesmen which way the wind set.
If the Right Hon. Baronet had been wise, he would have
taken his (Mr. Attwood's) advice in 1829—( A laugh)—
he knew that it was given in good faith ; it would have
stayed the advance of the popular tide—for the people
would have been enabled to live by their labour. in 1837
he gave the same advice to the present Ministry, who then
had another opportunity of stopping the march of anarchy,
and throwing oil upon the troubled waters. Yet he was
accused of having created all this mischief. He repeated
that he had in no way created it. He was but one among
the millions. But he knew that nine-tenths of the la-
bourers of this country were discontented men. Esnglish
Gentlemen did not believe this, perhaps. Why? Because
they consulted only those sycophants by whom they were
always surrounded ; their butlers, gamekeepers and other
dependents, who ever prophesiedigood ; so that when an
honest man told a disagreeable truth, they were ready to
address him in the language of the ancients.--" Prophet
accursed I—for ever brooding ill I" For himself, he had
always dissuaded from violence—he had never recom-
mended it even as a dernier resort. To be
sure the press—which, when it did condescend
to notice him spread delusion respecting him, and resorted
to imagination as to his sayings—the press had stated
that he had talked of armies marching upon London, and
of the people arming. Certainly, at a period when the
House of Commons were with the people—when the
Ministers of the Crown were with the people—when the
King himself was with them, at the time of the Reform Bill,
and when be thought that the people, the Ministers, the
House of Commons, and the King were all bearded by
the House of Lords—he had used stronger language than
he had ever since used, but he had never spoken of an
attempt to coerce by force, but had only talked of defend-
ing the law, in ease any English Polignacs should arise—
( Laughter)—he had told the people to be ready and
prepare to vindicate the law, should it be attacked by a
tyrannical Ministry. That was all he had done in 1832, and
ever since he had strenuously endeavoured to recommend
peace, law and c,”,ler among the working classes ; he had
exhorted them to seek righteous ends by righteous means,

not to envy the rich or the aristocracy, not to attack the
I.:erogatives of the Crown, not to be actuated by
any low jealousies of those who were more fortunate
than themselves. He advised the middling classes to act
with the working men, to operate thus unitedly on the
electoral body, and thus secure in the House of Commons
a majority of representatives who would execute the will of
the masses of the people,—and give them justice. He
had been for preventing anarchy,—and if it had begun he
washed his hands of it.—(Laughter.) He had done his li
best to prompt the people to peaceable combination for
none other than just and righteous objects ; in that
course he would persevere ; and though he now
saw unpleasant signs in the political horizon, be
still hoped to see the day when better senti-
ments would prevail—when, instead of talking of
arms and physical force, there would be concord between
the middle and the lower classes—when the period of dan-
ger to the Crown or the aristocracy would pass away under
a representative system, restoring to the people all those
rights which their fathers gained by their blood, and
which had been twisted out of their hands. Now a few
words more.—( A laugh.) He believed that the autho-
i, rities of Birmingham had done their duty during the late
proceedings. They were highly respectable gentlemen,
though of the Liberal party. It was curious that their
first act had been to- address the Crown to call such
Ministers to her Counils as would carry further Reforms
in that House, not certainly in so many words to dismiss
the present Ministers, but virtually so.—(Laughter.) As
to violent speeches which might have been made by mem-
bers of the Town Council, the errors of youth in past
times ought not to be too severely pressed when better opi-
nions had been formed. With respect to Mr. Edmonds,
a more worthy man never lived; though it was true he
had been for twenty-five years an " agitator"—still he
had never recommended violence. There was a little error
certainly in the language which had been mentioned—if
he ever used it—which, if it was quoted in the Birming-
ham Journal, he (Mr. A.) believed ; if not, he cared not
tzopence for all the rest of the Birmingham papers.—
(Laughter.) Mr. Douglas was one of the most worthy
men in the twwn, though he had not been there more than
a few years,—his only fault was, that, like the Right Hon-
ourable Baronet, he was rather too fond of gold monies—
(Laughter)—and would never give in to his (Mr. Att-
wood's) notions about paper, the disregard of which made
him despair Of this country's ever being rescued from its
present condition.—(Laughter.) He defied any one to
point out any outrage committed by the Political Union.
He had been accustomed to tak credit for the manner in
which they had conducted themselves. During 1829, 1830,
1832, the public offices in Birmingham were deserted.
He wished to have given this peaceable character perma-
nently to the ‘LnltTn. He believed that notwithstand-
ing the late unpleasant it was still the cha-
racter of the town. He bette.74 that not of course
the Right Honourable Baronet oppose:: or gentlemen
who acted with him, but that bad men had been work

promoting these mischiefs through England—( Hear)—
promoting discord and violenee,in order to destroy the cause
they pretended to befriend. This he was quite sure of,
that had the bitterest enemies of the people sat in infernal
conclave, to devise means for injuring the cause of the peo-
ple, they could not have devised means more effectual than
recommending the use of arms.—(Hear, hear.) He had
denounced these schemes. Douglas, who at first had
joined the Convention, had left them when they began to
talk of physical force, and those wild ideas that passion,
not reason, suggested, and boded no good to any cause.—
( Hear.) He sometimes suspected that Nicholas of Russia
was concerned in exciting these mischievous designs.—
(Laughter.) Knowing how anxious the Northern despot
was to forment, either at home or abroad, disturbances
that might injure England, he certainly suspected some of
the retainers of the Right Hon. Baronet had been endea-
vouring to excite an agitation in the country which might
put down the peaceful agitation, he ( Mr. Attwood)
was desirous of encouraging, He had objected to the
course taken by the Delegates of the Convention ; but if
they returned to the maxims which he urged—peace, law,
order, and no mistake—he did not yet 'despair of great
and beneficial changes being carried in the constitution of
that House. With regard, now, to this Birmingham Bill,
if the Mayor and Corporation wished the loan of 10,0001.
he would not object to it. But as to placing the projected
police entirely under the control of the Noble Lord or
the Government, it escrelsl not be submitted to.—( Hear,
hear.) It was the hostility id the nese police that had
created the riots at Birmingham. He said this upon the
.iinple fact that the common constables had taken up ten
or twelve men from the midst of the crowd and had thew
tined various sums, from 103. to 51., or a months' imprison-
ment, niet:Oly fur the lsreatfh of a local Act—sentences
tolerably severe ; yet dot d 111/w was straek, there was
only a little hissing. But when the new police came down
they acted violently, and instead of arresting parties
offending, and in which, if they had attempted, he trusted
they would not have been resisted, they began to lay
about theft? With their tta•fet.—.a treatment to which the
good people of Birminghdrii cetre net aecestomed ; they
therefore resisted, and, as on a memorable ()demon, he be-
fieved that a jury would have returned " justifiable homi-
cide," had any of the policemen been wounded in the
affray: He trusted the House would not, therefore,
sanction tt , ItteTttre which would make the Birmingham
force resemble the neVi pojtial ; !I seteild Lie the commence-
ment of a system of gendartnerie-e-a edieltabluMry force,
centered in London, and spreading through ercry parish
in England, the introduction of which this House would
rue. He hoped the money to be advanced by this Bill
would be Qlated ender the control of the Mayor and Cor-
poration oz ; as to who..e management, not
being sufficiently Conservative, hd Woffid only observe that
there seemed to him to he no danger, as in the late dis-
turbances there appeared to be rather a little too much of
energy than a deficiency of it ; he repeated, therefore, his
hope that in the Gouncil there would be reposed entire
confidence, and eipeeidlly In the Magistrates, a most re-
spectable body of gentlemen—though sYnne of them were
Tories—respectable Tories.—( A laugh.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he owned he felt a wish
that the Bin. Gentleman who represented the town of
Birmingham :weld pause from carrying his fears to such
a distance he Was wont to extend them, and instead of
being alarmed at the Ponsitlility of sortie English Po
lignac springing up and overtuenilig seer rights—or
Nicholas of Russia interfering with otif ildmestie
institutions—that he would feel a small degree of'
compassion for those fellow-townsmen of his own, who a
short ti ens ago had been doomed to ice their property de-
stroyed by a lawless mob.—(Bear, hear.) The Hon
Gentleman, bbtli iii his letter to the people of Birrningam
after the riots, and in his speecli thisceening, had shown an
utter want of what he (Lord J. Russell) ehottld have ex-
pected from him,—a strong, decided censure, disapproba-
tion and reprobation, of the acts which had been com-
mitted in those riots—( Hear, hear)—and the Hon. Gent.
had merely expressed regret at their tendency to retard
the cause of those peculiar reform, of which he was the
advocate.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was fereently, however,
to be trusted, that the House was unanimously of opinion
that the inhabitants of Birmingham having had their pro-
perty destroyed, and houses committed to the flames, was
cause for serious consideration, and that every effort should
be directed, without any respect to minor differences, to
devise means whereby the recurrence of similar perils
might be prevented.---( Hear, hear, hear.) In addressing
himself to the observations which had been made by the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite, he (Lord John Russell)
would not advert to what had been urged respecting the
increase of the army or the improvement of the constabu
lary, for which there would be other opportunities of
discussion. With respect to the present state of Birming-
ham and the necessity for this Bill, he would state the
conclusion to which he had arrived, and the difficulty he
felt in regard to that town, and in a greater degree, as to a
still more important town, that of Manchester. The
Right lion. Gentleman said there was some haste and pre-
cipitancy in granting the charter to Birmingham. On
that subject he (Lord John Russell) need only refer
to the clause in the Corporation Act which said that there
were sundry towns in England not corporate, and which
it was expedient to make corporate ; and that if the ma-
jority of the inhabitant householders petitioned her Ma-
jesty to grant them a charter, it should be lawful for the
Privy Council to issue such charter. Now, both as to
Birmingham and Manchester such petitions had been pre-
sented, and the Government felt that they had only to
ascertain what was the wish of the inhabitant house-
holders, and if it were for the charter, to grant it, ac-
cording to the obvious intention of Parliament. The
towns of Birmingham and Manchester had grown up
with very insufficient institutions—( Hear, hear)—with none
suitable to their importance, and the preservation of order.
—( Hear, hear.) Every effort had been used to ascertain
if the signatures to the petitions were genuine, and if
they represented rated inhabitants ; and it was considered
by the Privy Council that it was the wish of the inhabi-
tants of Birmingham to have the Charter of Incorpo-
ration. The opinion of Sir William Follett, which had
been referred to, did not state that the Charter was ill-formed
for the purposes contemplated.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He states that doubt exists as to the Act of Parliament
under which the Charter was passed giving a right to the
Corporation to levy rates. Of course he (Lord John
Russell) was not competent to give a legal opinion on the
subject; but as the opinion of Sir W. Follett did not sug-
gest any invalidity, arising out of the manner in which the
Charter itself had been framed, he considered that .com-
pletely absolved the Lords of the Council from the charge of
carelessness or undue haste in the granting the Charter.
He had stated that the Act of Parliament was a reflective
Act—that of course was a question to be decided by the
Court of Queen's Bench, after argument heard thereon ;
and be thought that the Hon. Member for Birmingham must
see that if the Act of Parliament was insufficient it was
not for want of any precaution on the part of those by
whom the Charters of Manchester and Birmingham
had been granted. This was a question which
in times of tranquillity, when party spirit was
lulled, might, like any other party question, be discussed
without agitating the community. But in the present state
of affairs, it was a question of grave importance. At Man-
chester the Town Council bad issued a warrant levying a
distress on the goods of the Churchwardens and Overseers,
this had been immediately met by a replevin, and the case
could not be tried for the next six or seven months. It
was obvious that the Charter of Birmingham was in the
same case as the Charter of Manchester. After that
opinion the Town Council of Birmingham could not feel
themselves justified in levying a rate at present. He would
read an extract from a letter he had received from the
Mayor of Birmingham, stating that the Magistrates at the
various meetings felt confirmed in the opinion as to the
necessity of the establishment of a police force for the
maintenance of the tranquillity of the town ; but that as
doubts existed as to the validity of a borough rate,
they had no means of raising the force that was so
much required. Under these circumstances, after great
consideration, he determined that the best mode to pursue
would be to propose the advance in question. The
Hon. Gentleman had said that while the Charter of
Birmingham was in dispute, it would tend to diminish
their authority. He felt the force of that argument. In
towns possessed of an old Corporation, the Corporation
did possess that authority. In the town of Newcastle, for
instance, a mob of five or six hundred assembled at night,
and commenced an attack on the property in the town.
The Mayor, who was a man of extreme opinions, and w ho
had taken a more active part that, the Mayor of Bir.

mingham, found no difficulty in making his authority
respected by means of the police force, and suppressing
the tumult ; and if he needed any increase in the
police force he could easily obtain it ; but that was
an old Corporation whose authority was undisputed.
He must, however, say with reg ird to the Magi,trates of
Birmingham, that he had every reason to believe that they
had performed their duties most zealously and rigidly, so as
to meet the confidence of the town.—( Cheers.) And with
regard to one of them in particular, Mr. Muntz, who had
been much misrepresented with regard to certain trans-
actions in Scotland, there was no difference of opinion
as to the ability and zeal which be had exhibited in the dis-
charge of his duty, and that he had not shrunk from the
performance of it in the least in consequence of any
obloquy that might be cast upon him.—( Cheers).
With regard to another gentlemen, a Mr. Edmonds,
the clerk of the peace, he had thought it right when he
heard that he bad been concerned on behalf of some of the
prisoners, to inquire into his conduct, and he must say, that
the explanation was not satisfactory ; it was stated that he
had been engaged in defending prisoners who were not to be
tried at Birmingham, but who were sent to Warwick for
trial ; this, however, was by no means a satisfactory ex-
planation, as it tended to weaken the authority of justice,
if a person sitting as a Magistrate's clerk, were seen en-
gaged in defending a prisoner. Taking all the eir-
cemstances of the case into consideration, he was
inclined to substitute the opinion of the Right Hon.
Baronet for his own as to the appointment of the police
and he should be inclined to observe the same rule in Man.
chester also, should the inhabitants of that place be desi-
rous of the introduction of a police force. He thought
the power should not exceed two years—and that it should
be lodged in the hands of some person, independent both
both of the Town Council and of the Commisioners of Streets,
for the organization of a police force.—(Cheers.) This
course was open to many objections—in fact, the whole
case was surrounded with difficulties, but he thought on
the whole, the course proposed by the Right Hon.
Baronet was to be preferred. He would not propose that the
appointment should be lodged in the hands of the Secretary
of State, but of some Commissioner, some person of dis-
cretion and ability in the neighbourhood, who should have
the whole control and direction of the police for the next
two years. As it would be necessary to introduce exten-
sive alterations in the Bill in order to carry this plan into
effect, he would postpone the further consideration of it in
order to bring it forward with the necessary alteration.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD explained.
•

Mr. HUME had heard the latter part of the decla-
ration of the Noble Lord with regret. He had
borne testimony to the ability and efficiency of the
Corporation of Birmingham, and now he was • g
to deprive them of the appontment of the police. (Hegoar.)
going
Why did not the Noble Lord introduce a Bill declaratory
of the legality of the charter, and clearing up the doubt);
akthea appoint-
_f itoinn wa
s
wrong s
fr
on the subject.—( Cheers.) He heard with satisfaction
thenewfoopcionniostnistuoefnctibees
aßnda
Right Hon.
aßteasrotonemt,
persons agreeing with themselves in politi-
merits With regard to Messrs. Douglas
cal opinions.
s-ss,itlernen had given the best
and Edmonds, those
possible pledge of their &se to uphold peace and:
ion the instant it
good order by the leaving the Conve::
violent and
attempted to propose what they consideres: 7
improper measures. But if violent language was to he a
reason for the exclusion of persons from authority, he
had heard much more violent language from the supporters
of the Right Hon. Baronet. One of the gentlemen in
Ireland had said at a public meeting, " Put your trust in
God, and keep your powder dry,"—language more violent
than had been used by either Mc. Douglas or Mr. Ed-
monds. But he wished to know from the Right Hon.
Gentleman what was the principle on which these appoint-
ments ought to be made. Could he show a Tory Corpo.
ration, or a Tory body of Magistrates, who had ever made a
liberal appointment? What was the principle the
Right Honourable Baronet wished to lay down ?
Did the Right Hon. Baronet mean more than that ?, He
could not act with justice unless he slid. But he (Mr. H.)
would ten times rather see the charter withdrawn from
Birmingham, than that the Corporation of that town should
be disgraced by the proposition which the Noble Lord
now seemed willing to adopt. This was an attack on
the principle of local Government against which he pro-
tested most strongly
Mr. H O D G E Se was desirous to correct a statement
made by the Hon. Member for Birmingham. He had stated
That in the towns of the North the majority of the inhabi-
tants were Chartists, and that in the agricultural districts
nine out of ten were rick burners. He (Mr. H.) had long
been connected with the agricultnral districts, and he
could give the strongest possible contradiction to what the
Hon. Member had stated. Instead of there bellies, one man
out of ten a rick burner, he was sure there was not one pa-
rish out of ten, or even one parish out of thirty—instead of
the labouring people rejoicing in the destruction of property
by fire, they had generally shown the greatest desire and
activity to put the fire out.—( Hear, bear, hear.) He
knew that the Honourable Member was distinguished
for his charity and benevolence ; but surely it was incon-
sistent with that character to charge a man because he was
poor, or because he lived in a district that had been die--
graced by an outrage, with apathy or bad feeling,--(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNE LL said he believed the question raised
was not as to the validity of the charter, but as to the
power of the Corporation to raise money by taxation, and
to divide the burgh into wards. The Crown used to con-
fer the latter power in former times, but it seemed to be
doubted whether the prerogative extended so far now.
He wished to say a few words in vinidcation of the
character of Mr. Edmonds, whom be had known long and
well. He believed there was not a more worthy man in
the profession and in private life, and he was besides a
thoroughly honest Reformer. He was charged by the
Right Hon. Gentleman and censured by the Noble Lord
for having been engaged in the defence of the Chartists.
It was quite true that Mr. Edmonds was Clerk of the
Peace to the Town Council of Birmingham, but he was
I also a practising attorney—if they wished to make
a law preventing a clerk of the peace from
practising 83 an attorney, let him be punished
for violating that law—but, while he was perfectly
justifiable in doing as he had done, he ought not
to be censured. Mr. Edmonds might not practise at the
Birmingham Sessions, but he might out of that Court—
and the Chartists were not triable at the Sessions but at
the Assizes of Warwick.—( dear, hear.) Therefore, he
was not only justified, but bound to do as he had done.
A council could not select his client, neither could an
attorney. Sir Charles Wetherell defended Thistle-
wood, and Sir John Copley defended Watson. A
very violent Orangeman in the county of Cork, shot
his son for turning Catholic. He (Mr. O'Connell)
defended the man at the assizes ( Sir J. Franks
being his leading council) and the man was acquitted—
a result I
ties was mnch attributed to Ins (Mr. o'con.
nell's) exertionee No man was more desirous than he
that the Chartists should be punished for their crimes,
but he was also desirous that they should have the benefit
of the law, and they should select the best lawyers they
could finc.l,—( Hear, heat.) He submitted that Mr. Ed-
monds Was entirely free from blame. He (Mr. O'C.)
did not meEiss2eaything in disparagement of the Corporation,
but he thought i; would be the wisest plan to place
the police under thc controul of persons who belonged to
no party. Indeed fie was sure that:at the end of 12 months,
the Town Council wouiti of themselves ask the Govern-
ment to take the responsct;:!itY out of their hands.—
(Hear, hear.) He was not one o: those who called the
police gees d'armes.—(Hear,lsar.; The police
had dor,c eminent service in Dublin and th."°"gh "t
Ireland. They were now becoming popular in :12at
country, and he was sure they would be so soon in
England. He was glad that the Govevernment were
about to increase the army. He wished to see the Go.
vernment possess sufficient strength to put down the Char.
tists ; but he must at the same time say that nothing so
much tended to the formation of political unions as the
refusal of Parliament to do justice to the people. There
was nothing more painful to witness than the utter abhor-
rence of the House of Lords to any measure of salutary
reform.—( Hear, hear.) Why the Bill sent up from this
House the other day to put an end to the taking of
the franchise frem men who had merely removed
from one home to another within the same district, that
Bill had been unceremoniously refuted by them.—( Hear,
hear.) The operative classes were severely aggrieved
and injured ; they had no vote in the return"of Members ;
they had no one in Parliament with whom to hold direct
intercourse, and to deposit their feelings and confidence.
They deprived the working classes of the franchise, and
then they expected them to be quiet and satisfied. But
if they were to be so they would be undeserving tho name of
Englishmen. At present those were a slave class, while
they were a master-class. The working classes were
fully justified in seeking through Parliament for relief,
and it was a favourable trait in their disposition that they
were disposed to regard the Legislature with a filial res-
pect. They had good reason to wish for the shortening
of Parliament. The Parliament had been elected for
three years, it passed a law to make its existence for seven
years. Parliameut had always held respect to the
body of the people. While they would not give up
their two representatives for Saltoun and Old Sarum
they would not give a representative to Birmingham.
It was this kind of injustice and indifference that had raised
up Chartism—and very strong the Chartists would now be,
if they had not bad leaders. If calumniated Ireland were
now to give her countenance to Chartism—if they had
proclaimed Chartism three months since, would not the
Chartist of England have derived great encouragement and
force from that fact ? But Ireland had no such disposi-
tion. Even the tales of Ribbonism which had been
whirled against him in the other- House, were proved
to be false by the evidence brought before it. Ireland
well knew what her advantage might be if she were to
weaken her enemies in this country, but she wished to do
nothing that was not°compatihle with the law. Ireland
was now more tranquil than she had been for 500 years.
The Judges had gone the circuit. At the assizes for the
county of Kilkenny, there was but a single felony—in
others there were but two or three. Yet the result was,
that Ireland was treated with contempt by one House,
while a momentary hope was held out by the other.
But he had digressed a little. Let them put down Chartism
by the strong arm of the law, and then let them
redress not imaginary grievances, such as the currency,
but the real substantial complaints of the working classes.
All knew there must be always great distress in the fluc-
tuations of the manufacturing districts; but still it was a se-
vere grievance to exclude the working classes from the re.
•
presentation, and see 30,000 electors in Yorkshire return-
ing two Members, and Harwich, with only 170, returning
also two. He was desirous to see a police established to
enforce and support the law. He held it most unjust and
cruel to exclude from the franchise those intelligent
high-minded workmen, and to whom England
was mainly indebted for her wealth and commerce.
By these means the people were left open to agitation for
;bad purposes, He was not saying anything agitatous—
( A laugh.)—for be believed agitation was necessary and
useful, and if kept within the law, it committed no crime
and injurned no property. An inquiry would take place
as to the police, and no doubt their conduct would be
vindicated.—( Hear, hear, He though the Magistrates
had taken a proper step in calling for the London
police, for by that means a collision with the military had
been prevented, which would only have ended in blood.
If the Mluist,att's lied corn aitted any fault, it was in

having remained an hour and a half from the office ; but
upon that fault Tory iilagistrates as well as Radical were
equally blameable. Bei lie believed nothing that took
place was anything like the sacking of a town, or taking
it by storm, nor could it be believed be compared to
anything that happened at Badajoa or San Sebastran.7
(Laughter. ) The agitatora who instigated the disturb-
ances at Birmingham should be punished; but while they
deserved to he punished, those ought to be punished who ,
had given them materials for creating sucis disturbances by
doing injustice to the people of England.
Mr. BROTHERTON knew something of the artisans
of Lancashire, and from accounts he had received he believed
there was throughout the eounty displayed by the great
bulk of there an amount of intelligence and good feeling
that should lead the House not to mistrust them. They
had great Privations to undergo, and he hoped nothing
harsh would be done towards them.
Mr. W AKL E Y sincerely hoped the Noble Lord would
not be induced to act on the suggestion of the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite ; but ha understood the Noble Lord had
proposed to withdraw the Bill which he h,ad in-
troduced last week, and to substitute another—
with totally different provisions. Now the Noble Lord
should recollect that he had obtained the unanimous vote
of the House for the 0,000/., under the expectation that
the money was to be applied by the parties who had been
elected by the people of Birmingham to rule the town.
( Loud cries of " Hear.") Was it fair to obtain the money
under such a profession, and then to endeavour to apply
it in a totally different manner, ?—(Hear, and cheers.)
It was not dealing fairly with the House or the people.—
( Hear, hear.) The people of Birmingham were repre-
sented by two Members in that House. They had been
sent to the House by the voice of the people .of Birming-
ham, and these Hon. Members urged the Nobl a Lord not
to adopt the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet. But
it appeared the Noble Lord was determined to adopt that
suggestion, and the Town Council were to he relieved
entirely of all control over the police. This
was a most extraordinary mode of proceeding., and he
would prefer having a Tory Government at once. —( Hear,
hear.) At present the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) was the leader of that House; lie almost directed
the other House, he had not the least responsibility
thrown upon him.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) If
the Noble Lord was inclined to yield to sug-
gestions why did he not yield to the suggestions of
his supporters ?—( Hear, hear.) But Cie Noble Lord
would not adopt the suggestion of his supporters in Par-
liament, but acquiesced in the suggestions of the Right
Hon. Baronet who represented the minority ire that House.
—(Hear, hear)—and those who had been sti. uggling for
years in the cause of liberty were to be. defeated
by the suggestions of their opponents. If the sug-
gestion of the Right Honourable Baronet wa.e acted
on it would give great dissatisfaction to the. coun-
try, and would tend in a great measure to ,destroy
the usefulness of the Corporation which he had himself
created, because if the Corporation of Birmintgham,
merely because there was contention and strife in that town,
were to he deprived of the control of their police, every
other Corporation might be subjected to the ,same punish-
ment, for there was not a single Corporation in evhich
there was not a division of parties, and in which Virhige,
Tories, and Radicals, were not engaged in a ceaseless
strife for power.—(Hear, hear.) He hopes'. the Noble
Lord would give the power to the Corporation to manage
and control their police, and not commence a system of
eestablishing in this country Commissioners of pollee in the
rural ejstricts.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. If!! WES was not disposed to accede to the propo-
sition of the Sight lion. Baronet.—( Hear, hear.) He
had always been the advocate of a good police system,
but no 'doubt there would be in Birmingham con-
siderable opposition to A Police Commisionter being ap-
pointed by the Government„—( Hear.) The plan adopted
with reference to the city of London and the districts
around it was a plan that might be adoped in Birmingham
with success, namely, for the Corporation to elect: a com-
missioner who, with the rules and regulations which they
might agree te, was subject to the approval of the Govern-
ment. If the Noble Lord adopted the proposition of the
Right Honourable Baronet, great excitement would be
created in Birmingham, and it might perhaps prejudice
the progress of that constitutional system ,'f police which
he wished to see gradually and steadily extendeel. The middle
measure had worked well, and that would work equally
well in Birmingham. He wished the Noble AT cord had
taken more time to deliberate, before he had committed
himself to this proposition. Indeed, he hoped that the
Noble Lord had not committed himself finally to it ; for if
he had, he must introduce a fresh Bill, the present iseing
quite inadequate to this object.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to postpone the
further consideration of the Bill till Thursday next. He had
considered the proposition suggested by the Hon. Member for
Lambeth, but had found it inapplicable to the state of Bir-
mingham. As to the Hon. Member for Finsbury, who
seemed to consider that it was a reason for resisting the
proposition to appoint a Commissioner, that it was sug-
gested by the Right Hon. Baronet, he (Lord J. Russell)
would firmly say, that if any measure want proposed which
he believed would tend to the peace of Birmingham, be
would adopt it, even though it were proposed by that Right
Hon. Baronet.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said the resolution would not do for the
present Bill, another must be introduced.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Resolution was a genera/
one, and merely applied to the police of Birmingham.
Mr. FINCH said the Council of Birmingham could not
he expected, under the new plan, to be willing to accept
the advance of 10,0001.
Lord .1. RUSSELL said he certainly did not expect
that the Council would make themselves responsible for
the amount, under the new plan, nor should he propose it.
The Committee was then deferred till Thursday.
POOR-LAW COMMISSION CONTINUANCE