The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 15, 1863

ployment open. Parishes had by law ample powers to
keep emigration in check, but they had not seen it expe-
dient to put the law in force. The Government could not
curtail emigration.
Mr. HENLEY deprecated the use of the expression
by the right hon. gentleman, "England's misery was Mel-
bourne's opportunity," as positively indecent, seeing the
succour afforded by Australia to the suffering operatives at
how°. (Hear, hear) He lacked information with respect
to the £250,000 spoken about as to be furnished by the colo-
nies to promote emigration. Fearing that the Lancashire
distress in the coming winter would be exceedingly severe,
he deemed it wise to give every power to the authorities
that might possibly tend, in their discretion, to mitigate the
misery hear.) Could any portion
of the l h
oaot,
raised under this bill be devoted to
t2OOO to prevailed.be iur,
emigration ?
Mr. VILLIERS replied that the guardians could use the
money for any purpose to which at the present time they
could devote the ordinary poor rates. (Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN thanked the right hen, gentleman (Mr.
Villiers) for the patience and zeal which he had devoted to
the alleviation of the distress in Lancashire. (Hear, hear.)
The motion would be inapplicable, because the session was
nearly at an end, and it would be requisite to send out to
Australia to get the co-operation of the authorities there to
essist in the work. He had inquired at the Colonial-office,
end found there was not ls, in hand, so far as the colonies were
concerned, to assist emigration. (Hear, hear.) Then the
Queensland Company, and indeed, the Emigration Office,
in prescribing the nature of persons helped to emigrate,
omitted factory operatives, because there is no field of ope-
rations for them. The operatives themselves—especially
such as lived together in parishes, receiving from £1 10s to
£2 per week—objected to emigrate. If so, they would have
heard a good deal about it. It would be cruel to ship off
people to the antipodes, without being sure they would
do well when they got there. Queensland was
one of their youngest colonies, and with a small
population, and possibly in a few months they might learn
that this population was too great for its resources. He
advised the working people not to emigrate to any place
except they were pretty well certain that they would be
able to do well for two or three years abroad, and not to be
carried away by such ill-advised schemes for their so-
called benefit, as that advocated by Dean
.Close, who, in a
recent case, desired to consign a number of emigrants to
the care of Captain Pitt, an aide-de-camp of the governor,
without being satisfied that they would do well there.
Sir B. LEIGHTON supported the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the
debate would bear some fruit, and that the house would
quickly divide upon the motion. He defended the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Villiers) from some expressions cast upon
him with respect to his address. His right hon. friend simply
meant to contend that it was no part of the functions of the
Government to direct and control emigration. The right
hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) then
entered into an explanation of the existing acts bearing
upon the matter at issue, and argued that this was no time
to lay down a new principle of operation, seeing that these
acts were deliberately enacted, and when wages and comforts
of the industrial classes were being generally enhanced.
The factory operatives were not a class of emigrants who
would succeed in the colonies. Moreover, the bill was only
sought to be enacted for six months, so that it would be
futile to place this clause within it. Our colonies had be-

hayed nobly in regard to the Lancashire distress, and it
would be unfair to send them shoals of emigrants for whom
they had no need. He should, therefore, vote against the
motion. (Cries of " withdraw.")
Mr. DODSON supported the motion.

Mr, CHILDERS withdrew his motion se that the
house might go into committee, when he shpuld prepose a
clause that would, he hoped, meet with the approval of
the Government.

After a few words in explanation, by Mr. HOENBY and
Mr. FERRAND,
The motion was withdrawn.
The house then went into committee,
On clause 1,

Mr. POTTER proposed to add the following proviso :
Provided always, that the sections 3 and 5 of the said Act
shall be construed and read as if the words " one shilling
and sixpence" had been there inserted in lieu of the words
" three shillings."
Mr. VILLIERS said he had fixed the amount at 3s, after
minute inquiry, and believed it would work well.

After a short discussion the amendment was withdrawn,
and the clause passed.
Mr. TOLLEMACHE proposed the following clause :
That section 3 of the act of last session, as extended by this
act, shall be read and construed as if the words " six shit-

lings and sixpence," were substituted in that section for
five shillings."
Mr. VILLIERS assented to the amendment, so that the
clause will stand at 6s. 6d.
In reply to Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,

Mr. VILLIERS intimated that the rate of interest
would be similar to that paid on account of public works.
The remaining clauses were agreed to.
Mr. CHILDERS desired to propose an amended clause
with respect to emigration.

Mr. VILLIERS asked his hon. friend to propose the
clause on the report.
The sitting terminated at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN IN POTTERIES.
Mr. FERRAND gave rwtice that on Thursday he would
ask whether the Government intended in the ensuing next
session to introduce a measure placing children employed
in potteries and paper-tube factories under the protection
of the Factory Acts. And also whether their attention had
been directed to the great destruction of human life for
many years past by the bursting of steam boilers, and if so,
whether they were of opinion that steam boilers ought to be
placed under Government inspection.

having regard to the condition of Lancashire, that some
changes were nccosssary with regard to the administration
of the affairs of India. He believed great discrepancies
existed between the services in India, and that the medical
service had good ground for complaining of inadequate
rewards. He hoped the Minister of India would tyke a
considerate view of the proposition of his hen, friend,brought
forward in so moderate a manner; and as it was too late to
do anything in the present session, that the matter would
be kept in view during the recess, so that some measure
might be introduced next year which would lay the basis
for the welfare of India, and at the same time provide for
the commercial prosperity of the people at home.
Sir C. WOOD said, with regard to what had fallen from
the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he thought he
had distinctly stated on a former occasion what had been
done by the Government of India, and that nothing had
been omitted which was deemed to be of advantage to the
people of India and to the commercial benefit of this country.
Whatever had been done had been done with the entire ap-
proval of a large majority of the council ; and the only
question upon which a difference of opinion took place
was with reference to the sale of waste lands. The hon.
member opposite had said that he might be asked why he
had brought forward the motion, and it seemed to him that
the hon. member hod good reason for putting, the question,
as he had not advanced one argum, IA in support of it. The
hon. member had not instanced one fault, one case of ne-
glect; but, on the contrary, had stated that he did not im-
pute any Warne for the non-performance of duty either to
himself or the council over which he had the honour to pre.
side, The only reasons given in support of the motion were
the opinions of certain members of that house on a former
occasion. But after the experience which he now possessed,
he could only say that he had every reason to be satisfied
with the number and constitution of the present council;
and be was glad to have that opportunity of expressing the
obligations he was under to those gentlemen who, though
having been members of the old council, and being placed
in a difficult position, had yet worked in a cordial manner
in the administration of the affairs of India; and the coun-
cil themselves were also satisfied with the manner in which
things were conducted. The
.noble lord opposite, who was
the author of the bill appointing the council, had stated that
the Minister of India was to be surrounded by those mem-
bers of the council who were men of great experience, and
who could give him the best advice ; but still that the Mini-
ster would be bound in every case to act upon his own single
and individual responsibility. (Hear.) He had followed the
example of the noble lord, and claimed the right of taking
or not taking the advice of the council, and acting upon his
own responsibility. Did the hon. member mean to say that
his Parliamentary liberty was t o be fettered, and that he was
to be prevented from bringing forward any measure which
he thought to be for the good of the country, because he
differed from his own council ? The amalgamation of the
Indian army was not a purely Indian question, but an Im-
perial question, and, although the council were opposed to
the measure, still it was supported by a large Parliamentary
majority, and proved successful. (No, no, from Col. Sykes.)
He did not expect the hon. and gallant gentleman to con-
cur in that opinion; but it could not be denied that Par-
liament had approved of the measure. He could only say
that he was satisfied with the council, and that it would
be impossible for the Secretary of State to go on without
the council.
Col. SYKES said the right hon gentleman had himself
fully established the fact, that upon a question affecting the
interests of several thousand officers he had set at nought
the unanimous opinion of the council, although they were
to be his advisers and mentors upon all questions relating to
India, He could tell the right hon. gentleman that the
amalgamation of the Indian army with the Imperial forces
was producing a feeling of rankling discontent in India,
and the present system might, at some future day, lead to a
mutiny or some other terrible convulsion in India. The hon.
and gallant member then contrasted the old system under
the Court of Directors with the present council, and said
that while every member of the old board could give notice
of motion and discuss any question he thought proper, like
members of that house, the existing council could initiate
nothing, but were ruled absolutely by the Secretary of
State, who in his way was as great a despot as Alexander or
Darius.

Sir E. COLEBROOKE said he would be willing to
strengthen the council, and that they should be allowed to
be elected members of Parliament, although he was not
quite sure but that this might have a contrary effect. At
present it could not be denied but that the right hon. gen-
tleman had everything his own
way in the council, for he
was backed by a strong Government, at the head of which
was the noble viscount, who enjoyed so much popularity.
But there might not be a strong Government always in
power, and in this case he could suppose the council would
rise in importance and pessess greater influence.
Lord STANLEY said the questions proposed to be raised
were not questions of detail, but questions of general policy,
upon which the house had expressed a deliberate opinion five
year» ago ; and inasmuch as they were all matters for full
debate by that house, and not by a select body of gentle-
men, he hoped the motion would not be pressed.
Mr. KINNAIED said that after the opinions that had
been expressed, his hon. friend would withdraw his motion.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY also thought that a commission
was not desirable, and asked whether, when the Secretary
of State for India differed from his council, he recorded the
grounds for his diesent in writing ?
Sir C. WOOD said there was no obligation upon the Se-
cretary of State or any member of the council to state the
reasons for his opinions upon any question, though he might
occasionally have done so.
Mr. MILLS then withdrew his motion.
ARMY PRIZE PROPERTY.

Col. NORTH then rose to move an address to her Ma.
jest', praying for a royal commission to inquire in to the
realisation of army prize property,
tinits
e
extraordinary
distribution
i sand
tri
b its
ut
on tmode
oto the
delays
ed. h
captors, s
wtr ihbi
eu-
htiaodn,inanmdeiantteoataheea
ecreerrseoef h d
with a view to a remedy for the same. The hon. and gal-
lant colonel then alluded to the enormous delays that had
occurred in the distribution of the prize money from India,
which, in some cases, to the disgust of the army, had been
kept back so many 3 ears that nTohte monae-fiefutuht of
unclaimed
of the rightful
claimants survived. (H
theprize
interest
money line
itW s handx2s
375a8as: n,d oa
ll eos 0 thanof mh ifeo
which ought
la,
rl 3y, 3
school.t3
09 , an
haved
regrettedbeen divided
te find amongst
thnat I
Io
Hospital,
those
105ttsh6:017,ueong2ttittl
outed
thatt to
f ti
htthol osanet gw fundaegr
eo.n
hol edt
muchproperhee
been
mapapaltieerda,tobuCilhdeilnsgesa.
appropriations of the money.
Lord PALMER;,TON said that her Majesty's Govern-
meta had no objection to accede to the motion of the
hon, and gallant officer: because they thought it might
prove very advantageousln
amanynd, sreecsopnedeltys
bletcamusieghitt
didbe
as well, however, to omit the word " extraordinary" from
the terns of the motion ; because, in the first place,
it seemed to imply censure,
not in truth represent the fact. (A laugh.) He had
often felt the injury that was done to the service by the
delays in sharing the prize-money, but whenever he had at-
tempted to inquire into the matter he had always been met
by the reply, that there were so many things requisite to bo
done before the money was distributed, that the delay was
unavoidable. An inquiry would therefore probably be of
great advantage in showing the truth of that matter, be-
cause, if it were the fact, the inure generally the reasons for
it wore known the better. One great evil of the delay in
distributing the prize-money were that the claimants were
disposed to sell their claims for a small present payment,
so
that when it came to be paid at last, the bulk of it went to
a lot of speculators, who made a large profit it. It would be
an object with her Majesty's Government to see that the
commission was composed of such elements of information
and authority as should render it satisfactory to the house
and to the country. (Hear.)

Sir S. NORTHCOTE—The noble lord would not forget
to take into consideration the necessity for some lsgal and
properly constituted tribunal to settle questions of disputed
claims amongst officers.

Sir C. WOOD complained that the hon. baronet had im-
properly gone into the merits of the Kirwes and Banda
prize-money question upon the motion before the house,
after the noble lord at the head of the Government had
spoken, which precluded him from replying to the statements
the hon. baronet had made, instead of confining himself to
the proposition with which he commenced his speech.
The motion as amended, by striking out the word " ex-
traordinary" before " delay," was then agreed to.

to the fact that 100 corporations and 70 chambers of com-
merce had petitioned in favour of the reduction, and con-
cluded by expressing a hope that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would eventually see his way to the total abolition
of the duty, which was as much a tax on prudence as an
encouragement to the opposite quality.
Mr. COX seconded the resolution.

Mr. HUBBARD supported the resolution, pointing out
that the Government took one-twentieth of the value of the
property to be insured before an insurance could be effected,
The tax being a tax upon property, it ought to be uniformly
and equally levied; whereas, not only was it not levied upon
all property, but it was not even levied upon all property
of the same character. The owner of Tybutnia, Belgravia,
or of a whole county had no occasion to insure—he was his
own insurer. The man obliged to insure was the small
man, to whom a fire wus ruin. It was evident, therefore,
that the tax was unequal in its incidents ; the poor were
taxed and the rich went free. The bon, gentleman then pro-
ceeded to analyse the blue book, which had been drawn up
by Mr. Coode, and which had been circulated by the Go-
vernment amongst the members, and he affirmed that that
gentleman had attempted to perpetrate an arithmetical
fraud upon the House of Commons. In conclusion, he sug-
gested that a tax might be imposed on the export of iron,
which would enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
surrender the fire insurance duty.
'I he CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said that
although there were two questions brought under conside-
ration, the real and only ono before the house was that,
whatever the merits or demerits of fire insuanco might be,
the resolution of the hon. member was one which should be
sanctioned by the house. The hon. member was pleased
to quote a declaration of his on a former occasion, to the
effect that a reduction of this duty, like the reduction of
most other duties, would be followed by an increase of re-
venue ; and on this ground claimed his support of the mo-
tion. He was ready to admit that the question was one
proper to be considered in relation to other questions, with
a view to diminution; but beyond this he could not travel
with the Leon member. He had occasion recently to make
a computation of the wealth of the country, and,
although he took for his basis the surest data
he could find, yet he was almost afraid lest some of his cal-
culations would rise in judgment against him. But his
calculations looked contemptible by the side of the hon.
member's figures. A thousand millions sterling was the
hon. member's estimate of the wealth of the country.
Mr. SHERIDAN explained that what he said was, that
the estimate of a thousand millions had been made out, but
he was willing to leave it at two hundred millions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER resumed—
A thousand millions was at least five more than the first
computation, and he could not help saying that it was
a dangerous practice to quintuple estimates in debate.
With regard to the blue• book, about which so much
had been said by the hon. member for Buckingham
(Mr. Hubbard), he could only say that Mr. Coode had
been directed by Sir George Lewis to examine into the
question, and without pledging himself to every statement
in the book, still he thought the report, upon the whole, had
put the question upon a more intelligible footing. But Mr.
Coode was entitled to some favour, for how could it be pos-
sible for the hon. member to find materials unless he had
ready to hand the 70 pages of this report ? (A laugh.) The
right hon. gentleman, after referring to the fact that the
duty on fire insurances kept pace with the increase in the
actual wealth of the country since 1816, and showing that
the insurance on farming stock, though not equal to that
upon other commodities, had greatly increased, entered into
the consideration of abstract resolutions, such as that now
proposed, and contended that it was a flagrant breach of the
duty of the house to give a preference to any particular tax
for reduction. The hon, member did not deny the object,
which was that the House of Commons should write down
this tax No. 1 for reduction on the first opportunity.
Against this course he should enter his protest ; for abstract
resolutions invariably interfered with the necessary financial
arrangements of the Government. The hon. gentleman
was known to have more than once made the observation
that private members werealwaye, in the eyes of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, either too soon oritoo late. (Hear,
from Mr. Sheridan.) He claimed the right to say of certain
measures, that they were too soon or too late. There was
always a present between the past and the future, and when
the house was asked to pass an abstract resolution, they
should never forget the memorable instance of paper duty.
All abstract resolutions were bad, and a motion for reduction
of a particular tax should take place when other financial
questions were before the house. He should lay down
that proposition broadly, without beating about the bush
to move the previous question, and would oppose the mo-
tion, becouse he believed it was his duty to the country to
do so.

After a few words from Mr. HANKEY, and from Mr.
SnmarDArt in reply,
The house divided. The numbers were—

For the motion

Against it
Majority

(Cheers.)
The resolution was agreed to.
FELLOWSHIP PORTERS (LONDON.)
Mr. AYRTON moved for a select committee to inquire
into the treatment of the fellowship porters by the corpora-
tion of London. They complained that the £12,000 a year
which had been exacted for years from their earnings to pro-
vide a relief fund when they became poor and distressed,
had been squandered by the Corporation cf London.
Sir J. SHELLEY seconded the motion.

Mr. CRAWFORD opposed the motion. The Corporation
had only exercised certain powers conferred on them by the
Legislature. They had no interest in the matter, and the
hon. and learned member for the Tower Hamlets had un-
duly exaggerated the alleged grievance. The Common
Council had inquired into the matter, but it appeared the
result was not satisfactory to a certain few of the fellow-
ship porters. Of 600 of them 400 had presented a petition
against the inquiry as unnecessary. The dissatisfied per-
-80118 wished to wind-up the concern and appropriate the
fund amongst themselves.

Mr. BRUCE said it was not a fit subject for inquiry by a
select committee, and opposed the motion. It was only a
dispute between the potters and the corporation, and the
most fitting place for investigation was in a court of justice.
Sir J. SHELLEY sold they had no other tribunal to
apply to than a select committee of that house. He hoped
the motion would be renewed next session.
The motion was then withdrawn.
BANDA AND KIRWEE PRIZE MONEY.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE moved that an humble address
be presented to her Majesty, praying that she would be
graciously pleased to give such directions in the matter of
the Banda and Kirwea booty or prize-money as her Majesty
might be advised by the law officers of the Crown or by
some competent judicial authority. He explained, in the
early part of the evening, when be referred to this matter,
that he had no desire to act discourteously towards the Go-
verummt. The booty arose out of the late mutiny, and tne
question was whether the column under Sir H. Whitelock
who took those towns was a part of Sir H. Rose's force,
and the latter entitled to share with the former.
Sir N. FAR QUH A.R seconded the motion

Lord PALMERSTON said the noble lord the member
for Ling's Lynn (Lord Stanley) had already moved for
papers connected with the case, and he therefore suggested
that the house would wait to see those papers before com-
ing to a decision on the question. His own opinion, founded
upon Lord Clive's memorandum, was that the fund should
be divided between the two columns, inasmuch as he
did not consider General Whitelock's an independent
command.
Ultimately the motion was withdrawn, on the under-
standing that the papers would be shortly laid upon the
table, and that no action would be taken in the matter until
the house had full opportunity for consideration and dis-
cussion.