The Sun.
London, England, 1830-05-19 00:00:00

THE CHURCH.

Mr. HUME had been intrusted with a petition from
Rochester and its neighbourhood, upon a subject which
appeareel to him of the utmost importance. It was upon
the subject of tithes. He believed he might say, and the
Hon. Baronet near him would no doubt confirm his as.
sertion, that the time had now arrived when the in-
habitants of Kent were of opinion that the tithes ought
to be removed.—(Hear.) He had himself recently
travelled in that county, and in several others, and he
found the opinion of the mischiefs occasioned by the tithes
daily extending among all classes of the people. Every
body now was pretty well convinced that the tithes were
the great cause of the want of employment for the poor—
(Hear, hear)—and that if they were removed, many parts
of the country now barren, would be cultivated ; but the
fear of the tithes prevented people from bringing these places
into cultivation. He himself knew an instance in which
that fear was shown to have been but too well grounded.
A gentleman allowed a poor man a small piece of ground
to cultivate for the support of his family—the ground was
cultivated with potatoes, and the poor man hoped to ob-
tain great advantage from the gentleman's liberality ; but
as soon as the potatoes were about fit to be removed, the
Clergyman put in his claim, and the poor man hardly got
enough tireward him for the labour he had expended.—
(Hear.) The tithes were the most oppressive tax in Eng-
land. The system of paying the Clergy was quite different
in Scotland, and no man could look at that country with-
out being convinced, that such a system as that now exist-
ing in England ought not to be allowed to remain. But
if it was bad in England, it was even worse in Ireland,
where the great majority of the people were paying pastors
to whose tenets and doctrines they were most strongly op-
posed. The time had now arrived when it ought to be
considered whether great part, if not the whole of the se-
curity now given for the payment of the Clergy, ought
not to be dispensed with.—(Hear.)—The petitioners
stated this opinion ; and they added, that there was no au-
thority in Scripture—so far, at least, as they could dis-
cover—for having enormously paid Archbishops and
Bishops, while the people at large were suffering all the
miseries of poverty, privation, and want. The tithes
were a greater enemy to the church than the Jews, of
whom the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed so much afraid
last night. The tithes alienated the minds of the people
from the Church, and if the Government really wished to
preserve and maintain the Church, they must alter the pre-
sent system of tithes. They must reduce the ecclesiastical
as they had been called on to reduce the military esta-
blishments ; and certainly none of our establishments re-
quited reform more than the Church of England ; and
that reform must be directed against the higher, not the
lower ranks of the Clergy, for many of the latter were
most scantily paid for their labours. Out of 11,000
Clergy, not more than six thousand did their duty in per-
son, and against these and the tithe system the petition
was directed.

Sir R. INGLIS said, that the parallel drawn between
the holders of sinecures in the State and in the Church,
was by no means just, and contended that when the
Hon. Member for Aberdeen lately purchased an estate in
Norfolk, he had bought only nine-tenths of the soil, for the
other tenth most indisputably belonged to the Church.
Every landed proprietor in England held his property
on that tenure. It ought to be recollected also, that one-
third of the whole tithes of the country was in the hands
of lay itnpropriators. He objected to discussions of this
kind on the presentation of a petition,valthough he ad-
mitted that the Hon. Member had given notice of his in-
tention to present it.
Mr. PROTHEROE was not prepared to argue against
a Church Establishment:in this country, but he was anxious
to see the Clergy discharge their duties in a manner pro-
portioned to the emoluments they received.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL maintained that no body of
men in the country more conscientiously discharged their
duties than the Clergy of the Establishment. The peti-
tion at Penenden-heath, which touched the subject of
tithes, bad been got up at a period of excitement from dis-
tress. There were many different opinions as to the mode
in which tithes ought to be taken, but the seniments in
the petition now offered did not meet with the approbation
of the great body of the country. If any amelioration of
the system were necessary, a Bill was now before Parlia-
ment which had for object the introduction of some
amendments.

Mr. F. PALMER said that the Clergy, instead of
taking only one-tenth of the produce of the soil, took
much more. He knew an instance of a farm, which four
years ago, paid a rent of 6001. to the landlord, and a tithe
of 1401. to the Clergyman; at that date it was consider-
ably more than a tenth, but since, owing to circumstances,
the rent had been reduced to 500/. but the Clergyman
still insisted upon his full amount of tithe, 1401., on the
ground that. the more relieved the tenant was by his land-
lord, the better able he was to pay the full tithe.

Mr. BARING referred to what had falkn from him
on a former day, on the subject of the annual value of the
Sees of Canterbury and London. He felt called upon to
admit that he had been misinformed, and had consequently
made a very exaggerated statement, especially when he
said that the income of the See of London would ere long
be equal to 100,0001. a-year. The Right Rev. Prelate,
in another place, had made a reply, which showed the
extent of the error he (Mr. Baring) had committed. He
most implicitly believed what had fallen from the Right
Rev. Prelate, and he had himself taken the opportunity
of inquiring. The result of his inquiry was a strong feel-
ing of regret that he had given currency to a very exag-
gerated statement, which had found its way round the
country. He had heard it frequently asserted of the
Diocese of Winchester, in which he chiefly resided, that
in the first year it produced to the Bishop 90,000/. This
statement, he had reason to know, was far beyond the
truth. There was one consolatory point in the late expla-
nation of the Bishop of London, viz. the admission of
his Lordship that if his income even approached the stun
that had been mentioned, it would be highly proper for
Parliament to interfere for its regulation. Such an opi-
nion front such an authority must have great weight. He
(Mr. Baring) thought that the Church committed a great
error in shunning inquiry, in order to refute prevalent
exaggeration. Great prejudices would thus be removed ;
but the Church did not place sufficient reliance on the
haft it had of the feelings and affections of the country.
In Hampshire the tithe upon corn lands amounted gene-
rally to one-third or one-fourth, and most of the occupiers
of the soil would be glad to compound for one-fourth.
Human wit could not have devised a mode of
payment
more inconvenient or offensive than that in which religion
was paid for in this country. However, the whole was
a delicate question.
Mr. ESTCOURT expressed his concurrence with what
had fallen from his Hon. Colleague.
The Petition was then brought up, and read as follows :
,t To the Honourable the Commons cf the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parlia-
ment assembled.
" The Petition of the undersigned Owners and Occupiers
of Land, and Others, Inhabitants of Rochester, and its
neighbourhood, in the county of Kent,
" Humbly Sheweth—That, impelled by the distress that
at present affects almost all classes of society, and which is,
by general consent, admitted to be mainly occasioned by
excessive taxation, the petitioners beg leave to represent to
your Hon. House the great relief that would be afforded by
the abolition of tithes, a tax which, by drawing so large a
share of the gross produce of the land, is alike injurious to
the community in general, to the agriculturists in parti-
cular, and to the best interests of religion. To the coal-

munity, by unavoidably increasing the price of articles of
most general and necessary consumption—to the agricul-
turists, by subjecting them to vexatious restrictions in the
cultivation of the land, and by depriving them of the ability
to compete with the foreign grower, or to contend against
the importation of grain, which it is the present policy of
this country to encourage—and to religion, by proving a
fruitful source of discord between the clergyman and his
parishioners, and so destroying that harmony, upon the
continuance of which the success of his spiritual labours
chiefly depends.
"In urging the abolition of this impolitic tax, the pe-
titioners disclaim, with the utmost sincerity, any desire to
•advocate a system of spoliation ; en the contrary, they
fully admit the vested rights of private patrons and lay im
propriators, as well as the claims of the present incum-
bents to a life interest in their present incomes ; but, due
regard being paid to these, they maintain, that the tithe
tax is, equally with all other taxes, properly the subject of
legislative disposal; in opposition to the argument now
much relied on, that tithes, having been given for the
maintenance of religion, are therefore, inalienable. The
Roman Catholic might, with some plausibility, advance
such a claim to their recovery, they having been originally
granted for the support of his creed, but the Protestant
can found his right upon the law of the land only—upon
that law which, as it gave, can only modify or take away.
" It has been deemed necessary ti accompany all the
plans heretofore proposed by the repeal of this objection-
able tax with a substitute affording an equivalent income
to the Clergy; it is however evident, that, although a com-
mutation might remove the inconvenience of the tithe
system, yet it would afford no diminution of taxation ;
and as all taxes, in whatever shape imposed, fall ulti-
mately upon labour, that the inability to compete with
the less taxed labour of other countries would remain
unabated. But the petitioners confidently submit that
the time has, at length, arrived, when it ceases to be neces-
sary to provide a substitute of this nature, as they con-
sider, that, however esssential the aid of wealth and ho-
nours may have hitherto been to the Church of England to
enable her to lure to her service men of learning and talent,
to advocate the truth and excellence of her doctrines anti
discipline, the necessity for such aid happily no longer
exists. The task has been so ably performed, as to leave
nothing further to be expected or desired, and it may be
fairly assumed that the Established Religion can now be
safely left to its own intrinsic excellence for its future sup-
port. The well-paid labours of those eminent men, who,
attracted by the splendid rewards of the Church, have en-
listed in her cause, have so simplified the clerical duties as
to make them practicable by persons of ordinary capacities
and acquirements ; to such an extent, indeed, as to render
the functions of the Clergy of the Establishment almost
entirely ministerial ; for its comprehensive Liturgy, by
supplying all the formularies of devotion, whether for
prayer or praise, imprecation or benediction, disavowal or
belief, and al.o strictly enjoining the various occasions upon
which they are to be restrictively used, affords no oppor-
tunity for the exercise of judgment, the exhibition of talent,
or the display of learning. Nor do the duties of the
Preacher, any more than the Minister, require an educa-
tion superior to that which is usually bestowed upon the
middling class of society ; for the inexhaustible stores of
invaluable sermons which have emanated from the labours
of those highly-gifted Divines who have, at different
periods, shed a lustre upon the English Church, afford a
fund of instruction admirably adapted for every purpose,
and to select from which requires but a moderate portion
of literary attainments.
" The qualifications for the proper performance of
these functions being few, and the acquisition of
them not requiring expense, as they consist princi-
pally of propriety of demeanour, and the possession of
the natural advantages of suitable voice and delivery,
but moderate stipends would be necessary to ensure
a sufficient number of competent candidates, and the
payment of these stipends might be safely left to
the generosity of their respective congregations ; for
the petitioners consider that it would be a libel upon the
Members of the Established Church to doubt, fora mo-
ment, their liberality for this purpose, when it is seen
how respectably the different Dissenting congregations
maintain their pastors, and how readily they supply large
sums for the erection of chapels and establishment of
schools.

" In this economical plan of reform, there are no in-
comes from the State for future Archbishops, Bishops,
and other Dignitaries of the Hierarchy. But the ad-
mirers of Episcopacy need experience no alarm on that
account, for the history of the early periods of the Church
satisfactorily shows that the care of suitably providing for
all orders of its establishment may be safely entrusted to
the proper feelings of the people.
" The petitioners have thus sketched the outlines of a
scheme of reformation, which, when matured, would,
they believe, work well, be generally approved, and ren-
der the abolition of tithes easily practicable. This plan
would receive the approbation of many, who consider a
wealthy priesthood as peculiarly unfitted to inculcate the
precepts of Christianity, and who regard the unexpensive
provision for its primitive teachers as indicative of the de-
sire of its Founder, that his servants should look, not to
riches or rank, but to a reward of a far different nature,
as the recompence for their labours. Others, who are
desirous of upholding the Church of England, would
truly calculate that its adoption would tend to insure the
stability of that now tottering fabric, as, when shorn of
its wealth and temporal honours, it would cease to be the
object of attack, either of the financier or reformer.
Those who are enamoured of the beauty and sublimity of
the language of its Liturgy, or impressed with the con-
viction of the truth and importance of its Creed, would
most effectually protect these from innovation, by confin-
ing the office to a class of men who, from their functions
being ministerial, would have neither opportunity nor
temptation to deviate from the path of orthodoxy; whilst
the community in general, and the agriculturists in parti-
cular, finding themselves relieved, from an oppressive tax,
would hail the reform with unalloyed satisfaction.
" The petitioners, therefore, pray your Hon. House to
take the necessary steps to effect an early abolition of the
tithe tax—a measure which would give more satisfac-
tion to the country, and reflect greater credit upon the
Legislature, than any enactment that has been carried for
centuries past; and, when coupled with the boon of re-
ligious liberty lately so liberally granted, would entitle the
present Parliament to be mentioned in terms of the
most glowing eulogium by the historian of the United
Kingdom.
" And the petitioners shall ever pray," &c.

Mr. HUME could not see anything delicate in the ques-
tion, and certainly clergymen never had any delicacy in
the collection of their tithes. No body of men in the
country weremore indelicate than the clergy.—(Laughter. )
—They had no scruple in exciting and took one-
third and not one-tenth of the property of the country
with the greatest coolness. They 11;4 certain duties at-
tached to their situations which they swore to discharge,
and when they did not discharge those duties, they were
guilty of r. fraud, and received money upon false pre-
tences. He wanted to see the Church of England put
upon the same footing as the Church of Scotland, and then
he should be satisfied. To the Hon. Baronet, the Mem-
ber for Oxford, he should only reply that if he did not
like discussions of this sort upon petitions, he ('l[r. Hume)
was quite ready to fix an open day for bringing the sub-
ject forward upon regular ;notion.

Mr. PROTHEROE drew a distinction between the
clergy and religion. If any-body talked of dilapidated
churches, neglect of duty in the education of the poor,
or the exaction of tithes, then it was a matter of great
delicacy. Religion might be attacked with much less
ceremony.

After-a
few words from Mr. ESTCCIIIAT, the petition
was hid upon the table, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUAIE wished to press upon the attention of the
House the inconsistency there was in the Legislature of
this country continuing to give its sanction to imprison-
ment for debt.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought there would be
great difficulty in carrying any measure having that for its
object, against the opinion of the public. He wished to
take that opportunity of inquiring of the Noble Lord oppo-
site, whether he intended to persevere with a Bill of his
then before the House, as he (the Attorney-General) in-
tended himself bringing forward a similar measure ?
Lord MORPETH thought himself justified in inquiring
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman more particularly what
the nature of his measure was ?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL meant only to impose
upon newspapers established de novo, the necessity of
giving security to the amount of 1001. more than those at
present existing—with the latter he had no intention of
interfering. He thought that the public ought to be better
protected than they were from libels affecting private cha-
racter, for as matters at present stood, the real proprietor,
of newspapers found it no difficult matter to maintain in
prison a nominal proprietor, and escape with impunity
themselves. He took for granted that there was but one
opinion as to the necessity of repressing private libels.
Lord MORPETH said that in tha,; part of the measure
which coincided with his own, he, of course, concurred;
of the intended adjunct he might disapprove, but he wa,
decidedly opposed to that part of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's motion which went to impose increased re-
strictions upon the Press.
Mr. BRIGHT suggested to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman to leave the clause, respecting arrests on mesne

'process, out of the Bill, that it might be discussed as a
separate question.
Mr FERGUSSON said that it would be better to leave
that clause in the Bill.

Mr. O'CONNELL said the proposed measure would
have the effect of lessening a great evil. In his opinion,
Judges ought to be made responsible for a due investiga-
tion of every case wherein arrests were made, and that
security ought to be required from the plaintiff that he
make sufficient compensation in the event of the arrests
tnrning out to be malicious. He was sorry to learn that
further restrictions were to be imposed upon the press, and
that those already in possession of large interests in news-
papers were not to be affected by them, thus making a
monopoly iu the newspaper trade, similar to that which
existed in too many other branches of trade already. He
complained that while there was so much regulation on
the subject of newspapers, they had not yet been favoured
with any definition of libel ; it was only fair and just that
they should have a rational definition of the crime of libel.

Mr. CHARLES BA-RCLAY said there were in several
quarters of the mercantile world very strong opinions en-
tertained with respect to the alteration in the law relative
to arrest on mesne process, and he, therefore, wished the
matter to receive due consideration.

The petition war then brought up. It appeared to be
from the Prisoners confined for Debt in the Borough Gaol
of Liverpool.—To be printed.

Lord CHANDOS wished to know whether the motion
for a Committee on the subject of West India affairs would
have the support of his Majesty's Government?

.
Sir R. PEEL was not aware of the terms in which the
reference was to be made to the Committee, and there-
fore could not be prepared to answer the question of his
Noble Friend.

Mr. LENNARD presented a petition from Tewkesbury,
against the punishment of death fur forgery.
Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a petition from the Pa-
per-makers of Norfolk, against the use of machinery.—
To lie on the gable.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the wea-
rers of Spitalfields, saying that their condition was worse
than that of negro slaves, and praying for a Reform in
Parliament and a Relief from Taxation. They called the
attention of the House to the fact of there being in this
country a German Prince with 50,000/. a year, who would
be very well provided for with 6,000/.
Mr. FYLEP. supported the petition, and it was ordered
to be printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to present a petition from an
individual named James Kelly, a Lieutenant in the 3d
Corps of the Revenue Police, complaining that he had
been dismissed without trial, in consequence of dates being
confounded with each other.

After a few words from Mr. DAwsox and Lord
CLIMENTS,

Mr. C. WYNN thought the House should not be made
a Court of Appeal for every petty case of that nature.
Mr. DOHERTY wished to put a question to the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman opposite (the Member for Clare).
There was reason to suppose that he would that day have
presented two or three petitions, on a matter in which he
(Mr. D.) had an interest, and of which he had given
notice ten days ago. Now it would be extremely satis-
factory to know what the Hon. and Learned Member in-
tended to do about them. He (Mr. D.) had remained in
the House last night till half-past two o'clock, and he now
learned that the Hon. and Learned Member had with-
drawn his notice. Under those circumstances he wished
to learn from him whether he intended to fix any day for
bringing the subject under the consideration of the House,
that he (Mr. D.) might look forward to a probable
period to the matter, or whether he might not disembar-
rass his mind of it altogether?
Mr. O'CONNELL said his wish was not to present
the petitions at all. He had written to those from whom
he received the petitions, and if they agreed with him in
thinking that the subject, after what had occurred, should
not again be brought forward, the House would most pro-
ba,,ly hear nothing more relative to it. If they did not
agree with him, his request was, that they would put the
petitions into the hen& of some other Member ; and if
they assented to neither of these proposition, in that case,
and in that alone, he should lay the petitions on the table
of the House. He could not expect to receive an answer
before Saturday—on Monday he should be able definitively
to state what he should do. The Hun. and Learned Gen-
tleman then presented three petitions—one from the parish
of Whiteehurch, in the county of Cork ; another from the
parish of Garrycloyne, in the same county—these two
praying for a provision for the poor arising from an ab-
sentee tax ; and the third was from the parish of St. Mary,
in the city of Dublin, complaining of the Vestry Act.—
To be printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice, that be should to-
morrow move for returns respecting the number of lives lost
in affrays between the Irish peasantry and the police ; and,
also, for the coroner's inquest upon the body of man named
Daniel Delane, who came by his death in the county of
Clare.

Lord CLEMENTS moved for a return of the amount
of fines imposed at Quarter Sessions in Ireland during the
last five years.—Agreed to.
Mr. HUSKISSON postponed, till Thursday, the pre-
sentation of the petition from Liverpool, respecting the
trade of this country with Mexico, of which be gave notice.
Mr. DENISON presented a petition from Wolking, in
Surrey, against the Beer Bill.—To lie on the table.
Mr. BERNAL inquired of the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether be
intended to propose any measure respecting the French
claims ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Ye►,
very shortly.
Mr. C. W. W. WYNN wished to know when the case
of Sir Jonah Barrington would be heard ?

Sir ROBERT PEEL thought the earliest practicable
day should be appointed for it; and, as all others were oc-
cospied, he should propose that the House meet at an early
hour on Saturday next—suppose at two o'clock.
Mr. HUME thought that some rule should be laid down
respecting the hour at which public business should com-
mence ; and he thought, too, that after a given hour, busi-
ness should cease in that House. He was kept during
one day lately 21 hours out of bed by the business of that
House. The physical powers of men could not endure the
fatigue which the present mode of doing business imposed
upon them. In his opinion Parliament should meet earlier
in the year. say in November. There were several Bills
before the House, and unless some hour were fixed for the
commencement of public business, they could never get
through what was before them.
Sir ROBERT PEEL could have no objection to a par-
ticular hour being fixed; it would be as agreeable to him
and his colleagues as it would he to any other Members—
some limit should be fixed te the toils of the Members of that
House ; what with Committees, and nine or ten hours'
attendance in that House, it was more than they bad phy-
sical strength to endure—they were really called to apply
their minds to the difficulty, and devise some remedy.
After a few words front Mr. Husnsson and Lord F.
L. GOWIR,
Mr. O'CONNELL understood that it was the intention
of Sir Jonah Barrington to persevere in claiming to be heard.
Mr. CROKER agreed in the necessity of Sir Jonah
Barrington being heard.
Mr. RICE was favourable to the appointment of Sa-
turday.
After a few words from Mr. C. W. W. WrNN,
Lord F. L. GOWER. proposed Saturday at twelve o'clock.
The SPEAKER said, it was always the rule that the
House should stand adjourned to ten o'clock, and from that
until four it was supposed to be sitting.
Mr. C. W. W. W YNN adverted to the precedents ap-
plying to the case ; and it was understood that a motion
should he made in the words of the precedent, to enable
the business in question to be brought on on Saturday.