The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-15 00:00:00

mount importance of establishing, as a preliminary to any
system of national education, such a Board as would enjoy
the confidence of every religious denomination. Of what
religious denomination did the Noble Lord flatter
himself the Board of Privy Council, as now
constituted, and the systems which had been
lately propounded, enjoy the unlimited confidence?--(
Hear, hear.) With regard to the Established Church,
the great majority of its laity, clergy, and Prelates, CR_
tirely dissented from the Government schemes.—( Hear,
hear.) Next to the Established Church, which religious
denomination was most active and zealous in the cause of
education, of all those sects into which the other Protes.

tant portions of the community were divided? The Noble
Lord would answer—or if not, the country would tell him
—the Wesleyan Methodists.—(Cheers.) That body,
who from the time of John Wesley had afforded, he would
not say a contrast, but an object of emulation, to the Esta-
blished Church, in zeal for education—education properly
so called—combined with religious instruction—(Cheers)
—had expressed their entire dissent from the Government
plan.--( Hear, hear.) Which of the other denominations
had come forward, as a body, to support the Government
scheme? The utmost that the Noble Lord could allege
in his favour, was an expressive silence.—(Hear, hear,
and cheers.) Whereas, from a great portion of •the . Dis-
senting body, petitions had come up, equally adverse to the
Government plan—( Hear, hear)--objecting to the con-
stitution of this Committee, as controuling the education
of the country, upon the ground of its being a hody fluctu-
ating in its character, ansi political in its objects.—( Hear,
hear.) And upon the ground, further, that it did not
carry with it the support of the great body of the religious
denominations of the country. He (Lord Stanley) ob-
jected to it still more, as a Churchman, because he felt that
that the constitution of this body was such, as to give the
religious education of the people to a body exclusively
of laymen, independent of the clergy of the Esta-
blished Church.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The com-
petence of such a body to such a duty, depended
upon what was meant by education.—( Hear, hear.)
He could understand those who were for limiting educa-
tion to the mere cultivation of the intellect—the infusing
into the minds of children a certain degree of worldly
knowledge, altogether apart from spiritual instruction ;
he could understand why they should think, and he thought
pith them, that with such a system of education the
clergy had nothing to do—( Hear, hear)—and that such
a system, if it should be superintended at all, ought to be
superintended by laymen.—( Hear, hear.) But that was
not the view in which education was regarded by the great
body of the people of this country; or in which it was re-
garded by the Constitution and the laws of this country.—
( Hear, hear.) In early times, before the Reformation,

. . _
the education of the people had been entirely in the hands
of the Catholic clergy. He, however, was not con-
tending that education should be wholly in the
hsnds of the clergy. lie was only contending
that it was not to be considered as entirely separate from
religious instruction.—( Cheers.) In the old French of
the period, he found it laid down by the Chief Justice of
England so far back as in the reign of Henry II.—" La
doctrine et l'instruction des enfans est une chose spiri-
tuelle," and it had been deemed by the laws as under the
direction of the spiritual authorities. —( Ironical cheers.)
Hon. Gentlemen seemed to sneer at this. But still the
feeling of the people of this country, and the dicta of the
laws, supported the doctrine that education was not a
thing apart from religion. Not that it was to be solely
committed to the clergy—(Great cheering from the Mi-
nisterial benches)—but that it was to be combined with
religion—that it was to be dependant upon religion—
(Renewed cheers)—upon religious doctrine—upon reli-
gious faith—(Continued cheering )._that these must be in.
terwoven with the whole system of education, controuling
the minds and influencing the principles of the children of
this country.—(Loud cheering.) The Noble Lord oppo-
site bad on a former occasion, speaking of the Act of
Toleration and the freedom of education, &c.—points
which nobody at the present day disputed—the Noble
Lord had thought it right to say that the general and re-
cognised doctrine of the State now was, that education was
free to every religious denomination. To be sure it was ;
but allow it to be free to the Church, as well as the rest.
—(Loud cheers.) Let not the Government interfere to
take the education of the children of the Church out of
the hands of the Church.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and
cheers.) When giving judgment in a case in which refe-
rence was made to the ecclesiastical tribunals of the country,
Chief Justice Holt laid down this doctrine :—" Without
doubt, schoolmasters are in a great measure entrusted with
the instruction of the youth of this country in principles,
and therefore it is necessary that they should be of sound
doctrine, and in order thereto, subject to the regulation of
the ordinary ;" that is, " subject to the controul of the
clergy, in so far as regarded schoolmasters connected with
the Established Church." Farther than that, he (Lord
Stanley) did not desire to go. ese heard
some Hon.
Member opposite whisper " far enough." Farther, doubt-
less, it was than many Hon. Members opposite wished to
go—(Loud Opposition cheering)—but this was the law of
England, sanctioned by and interwoven intimately with
the feelings and convictions of the people of this country.
It was easy indeed for the Hon. Members epposite—
doubtless the Noble Lord would say, " Oh, we admit
that education should be combined with religious instruc-
tion." He (Lord Stanley) felt it was difficult to argue,
in a popular assembly those points which he considered
formed the justification of the Church for the resistance it
had made to the Government scheme. But it was im-
possible not to ask that House—not to ask the country—
whether there were not points of doctrine and of faith on
which conscientiously different sects might be divided, but
which were intimately connected with the Christian sys-
tem, and involved the Christian conduct, upon Christian
motives, which the great body of the people possessed,
which could not be blinked, which could not be compli-
mented away, to further , the education of those who dia.-.
sented from the Churelf.=(Loud cheering.) It
was impossible to fritter away such doctrines as the
great scheme of redemption—justification by faith—the
efficacy of infant baptism—the solemn mystery of the
Holy Eucharist—( Hear, hear)—yet frittered away they
would be, by the Goveinmcnt scheme of instructing
together Churchmen, Baptists, Socinians, Jews, Catho-
lics, and all other religious persuasions, who differed upon
so essential points.—( Hear, hear.) Believing these not to
be abstract, speculative, unimportant, and such as might
properly be given up for Charity's sake, but believing
them to be the very foundation of the Christian system—
(Cheers)—he could not consent to put them in the back
ground—to set them aside for any fancied scheme of con-
ciliation. Now, as to the alleged claim on the part of the
clergy to to the exclusive superintendence of education, he
( Lord Stanley) would ask the House and the country
if the education scheme, which bad since 1834 met with
the almost unanimous assent of Parliament, was a scheme
for maintaining the exclusive authority of the Clergy 7
( Hear, hear.) Did that scheme at all interfere with the
right of the children of every religious persuasion to free.
dom of religious instruction—aye, and instruction at the
ar
Ittma teen ?t a—r
y(
grant for
he a
er
d. )11 c a
tßi
ny n
wasthat scheme
divided
bteixentpweaennesnennoatlfwtoPhe Societies—the National, supposed to repre-
sent the feelings of the Church—and the British and Fo.
reign, supposed to represent the opinions of the Protes-
tant Dissenters. In bringing forward that scheme in
1834, Lord Althorp said, " This may seem to be a de-
parture from the fundamental doctrine, that the plan of
Government grants for aiding objects of this nature, has a
tendency to check private charity, and that in general such
interference is mischievous rather than advantageous."
He (Lord Stanley) concurred in this doctrine of Lord
Althorp, as did his Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer.__( Hear, hear, from the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman.) Lord Althorp went on to say, " There is one
thing, however,in which private subscriptions are frequently
deficient—in the first setting up of a school—and we have
thought it not an improper expenditure of the public money.
to grant 20,0001. for the current year, to assist in building
schools"—to be distributed between those recommended by
the National and the British Foreign School Society.
Certain restrictions, however, were imposed—fcr instance,
that the grants should not be made unless full security
were given for the maintenance of the school when
erected,and the subscription of one-half the required amount.
Since that time it had every year become necessary to
makelications for aid increase—and year was the com-
plaintmade
ityofupthnne
the 'l' f
Treasury
to meet.
p
ap the restrictions more stringent—so rapidly did the
inabil
He would ask if any ill effects had followed from this sys-
tem ? because if they were called upon to deviate from a
demands the
which
were
system against which no voice had hitherto been raised in
bethared of
order to adopt a scheme against which there was a general
outcry, he had a right to suppose that there must be some-
thing in the existing scheme which rendered it inexpedient
that it should be any longer pursued. The object of the
scheme was to increase and extend education.—(Cheers.)
The amount of education hitherto afforded had been

lamentably deficient (Cheers from the Ministerial
henches)—it continued to be so up to the present time.—
( Renewed cheering.) No one was more willing to admit
this than Hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House—
( Cheers)—and if the Noble Lord did propose a plan of
national education, founded on the doctrines of the Esta-
blished Oppos-
ition,) sitting Church, at the same time giving every allowable
latitude to Dissenters for the education of their children.
the Government would find that such a plan would receive
support
(if,rooemd
hHon.
r s
tion.) If the Noble Lord were to propose an increased I
grant in support of that system which had for four years
succeeded so well, all the opposition to such a proposal
th,,m.
would proceed not from that (the Opposition) side of the
House, but from his own. There had been no com-
plaint whatever that the funds voted for the purposes of
education had been unduly applied. He believed that the
funds had been distributed in an equal ratio between the
two Societies, and on the fairest of all principles. lie held
in his hands returns stating the amount granted in aid of
the 0 {realesti
te
to
local funds during the years 1834, 1835, 1836, and 1837.
The return for the year 1838 did not show this, because it
had been moved for by the Hon. Member for Wa-
terford in a different form. In 1834, 20,4841. had been
granted for the building of schools in aid of local subscrip-
tions, am
minting to 48,102/, ; in 18:2o, 19,000/. had been
granted in aid of local subscriptions amounting to
836
59,6001.; in 1 - , the . Government grants amounted
to 21,6691., and the local subscriptions to 71,7321.
Thus the House would see that
every year
the proportion of local contributions became
larger, on account of the necessity the Treasury was un-
der of adopting more stringent regulations. In consequence
of the great increase m the number of the applications
for aid in 1837, the Government grant amounted to
17,077/ , while the local contributions were 54,8661.
Thus- in four years this result was obtained, that a distri-
bution by the Treasury of 78,7981, had produced private
of amount 165,149/.
funds to the, and a sum Gf 033,947/.
had been raised for the purposes of education ; in conse-
quence of which 153,600 children had been educated in
England more than had been educated previously. He
I would ask the House what grounds there could be for
1 abandoning a system which had succeeded so well from
1834 up to the present time. lie should be sorry to sup-
pose such a motive could actuate the minds of her Ma-
i jesty's Government ; but could it be possible that they
withdrew their support from the exi.stin, system, because
year after year an increase was exhibited in the propor-
tion of applications from the Established Church ? It

I was desirable that all parties should have aid, but
Ihe could not consider it a matter of indifferencet
still less a matter of objection to the plan, that a larger
portion of the population were brought up—not in dissent,
but from ignorance and infidelity—in the doctrines of that
Church,:which still, and notwithstanding all attempts for its
overthrow, will continue to be the National Church of this
kingdom.—( Cheers.) He was confident the Government
would disclaim any such reason—he was confident they
would pig forward some other plea, as a justification of this
abandonment of the present plan. It might be urged that
it was merely the building of schools that was needed, but
the better instruction of the ill-qualified teachers in those
schools was also a matter of primary importance. But not
only the quantity of instruction was defective, but the
qualifications of the teachers employed by the two Societies
was far below what it ought to be.—( Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial benches.) He rejoiced to hear that ground
taken up, because nobody had been so anxious to in-
crease the qualifications of the masters—nobody had been
so anxious for the establishment of normal schools—
as the members of the Established Churches of England
and of Scotland ; and consequently if there rested blame
any si here on account of the delay which had taken place
in this establishment it was not with those Societies that

it tested, but with the Government, which had delayed
granting them that assistance which they required. The
first grant which had taken place for the establishment of
model schools was voted in 1835 ; the vote had been taken
almost without observation, and he was greatly surprised
to find that in no case had any portion of this 10,0001.
entrusted to the Government for the establishment of
normal schools been applied. He had called for the cor-
respondence on this subject, and the result was that he
found it stated that no part of this grant had been as yet
expended.—(Hear, hear.) Now, whose fault was this,
the fault of the National Society, of the Churches of Eng-
land or Scotland, or of her Majesty's Government ? The
Glasgow Education Society, a Society in connection with
the Church of Scotland, and which had taken an active
and most efficient part in promoting education, and from the
regulations of which the Noble Lord had borrowed
almost all that was valuable in the details of
the scheme which he had. recently abandoned,
applied more than two years ago to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to ascertain if a portion of the grant for the es-
tablishment of a normal school would be awarded to them ;
the proposition was well received, but led to no further re-
sults at that time. A subsequent application for 1,000/. it
was stated, would be complied with on certain conditions,
but they delayed their application until they were enabled
to lay before the Government all the details of their pro-
posed plan. They stated that a sum of 5001. would com-
plete the Glasgow normal school, the plans of which they
laid before the Government; this was in March, 1838, and
no answer had been returned to their application. With
regard, therefore, to the non-erection of normal schools,
the Glasgow Society at least were not chargeable with
delay. He would now allude to a letter which had beeu
addressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the
purpose of drawing the attention of the National Society
and of the British and Foreign School Society, to the plan
of her Majesty's Government, and in which they were
promised their cordial co-operation and support, in order
to render it effective. The letter directed their attention
first to the inspection of schools, and secondly to the erec-
tion of model schools by the National Society and by the
British and Foreign School Society. Their attention was
drawn to the steps proposed to be taken, and the principle
of private contributions already adopted was to be strictly
adhered to. This was in 1838. There was no delay on
the part of the National Society, the letter was dated on
the 7th July, 1838, and on the 21st July, 1838, in which
they state their opinion that considerable advantage would
be 'derived to the public from the proposed establishment
of model schools, they received an answer expressing
the desire of the Lords of the Treasury that the plans
should be expressed according to the plan laid down in July
1835.—(The Noble Lord then read the correspondence,'
from which it appeared that a correspondence between the
Society and the Treasury had continued on the subject of
model schools up to 1838, the Society experiencing great
difficulty in procuring answers from the Government).
In 1838 they had made a proposal to the Government, in
which they entered into details respecting the establish-
ment of tho model schools—to this they received no
answer. On the 4th of September in that year they laid
before the Government a proposal for the establishment
of a model school, and state the precise amount required.
On the 20th September they applied for an answer, and,
on the 4th October, they were informed that, with regard
to the model schools, the Treasury required to be fur-
nished with some explanation on the subject referred to.
The Society lest no time, they entered into details as to
the site and the establishment ; and on the 13th of Feb.—
( Hear, bear, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer)—on
the 13th of Feb. (and he contended that, considering the
calculations it was necessary to make, no unnecessary
delay had taken place) the Government was furnished
with the plans and estimates; and what was the result?
Why, on, the 18th of March, they were informed
that the, Lords of the Treasury had forwarded their
application for the consideration of the Lords of the
Privy Council constituting the Committee on Education.
It was rather singular that in this month of March, another
application met with a similar fate. That Committee of
the Privy Council to which the Government had referred
these applications had no legal existence until the 10th of
April following ; and these references to a Board not then
in existence, were merely given for the purpose of
avoiding giving a direct answer to those applications.
What could induce the Government to refuse their
consent to an application in March, which
they themselves had expressly invited only the July pre-
viously ? These documents would show the House and
the country that if blame attached to any parties for the
delay which had taken place in the establishment of those
model schools, that delay was attributable to the Go-
vernment. He would protest against any alteration being
made in a plan which had already been proved to work so
well ; and he protested still more strongly against the
institution of a Board with powers so arbitrary, that
it would be unsafe to entrust such powers in
the'.hands of any Government. He would now turn his
attention to the two plans which had been successively
proposed by the Noble Lord, and ask the House if in the
schemes themselves they saw any thing so excellent, so
definite, so incapable of misconstruction, as to reconcile
the people of this country to a scheme of education
conducted under the aupices of such a tribunal?

It was laid down in the first instance that the grants
should be made upon the responsibility, and upon the re-
commendation of two Societies, whose system of education
war known, which were composed in one instance of all
the heads of the Church, and in the other of Dissenting
Ministers, in both instances, therefore, comprising a large
amount of clerical superintendence. The complaint was,
that the funds were not sufficient,—that the demand for
the improvement and cultivation of the masters was so ex-
tensive, that it was impossible to meet the demands. The
next condition referred to the point of inspection.
Now, with respect to that, he thought it would be
difficult to contend against the principle that where
public aid was administered the public had a right
to be satisfied by their own inspection and examination
that that public aid was properly applied. He would ad-
mit, to the fullest extent, that when the Lords of the Trea-
sury laid down the doctrine, that where they gave certain
aid they had, in the first instance, to satisfy themselves
that the money had been properly applied ; and they had
a right to require the Society they entrusted with the dis-
tribution of the funds should report to them the continued
conduct of the schools. Following up that principle with
respect to the present measure, it was to be observed, that
the Government plan did not confine the grant to
the support of the schools alone, but it might
be applied in giving gratuities to teachers. It might be
very wrong, but he could not help having some suspicions
of a measure that was brought forward one day, and aban-
doned the next.—( Cheers.) It was the duty of the House
to see that there Were no suspicious loopholes in any mea-
sure to which it gave ,its sanction, which he must confess
he thought there was in this. For what were the provi-
sions in this plan ? Why, the Committee of the Privy
Council were to have the power to grant gratuities to
teachers who should appear to deserve them—( Cheers)—
and the inspectors were to have the power of visiting
schools for the purpose of meddling with their in-
ternal regulation.—( Loud cheers.) Such being the
case, did he do injustice to the Government plan
when he stated it to be a most artful one to endeavour to
meddle with private schools? He thought if there was any
confidence in the plan of the Government, he should be
enabled very shortly to displace that confidence, by ad-
verting to some few mere of its provisions. By those
provisions the Council were not bound to adhere to the
rules with respect to grants to the British and Foreign
and National Schools Societies, but they were to be at
liberty to judge of the objects of any grant. So that
they were in fact to be the sole judges to whom any grant
should be made. That might be all very well for those
who placed implicit confidence in these four laymen ; but
it would not do for the country at large. There was no
great security for the steadiness of the plan, when, after
granting 30,0001. for a certain plan, it was to be altered as
the experience of the Committee of the Council should
suggest. He would not now go into the arguments with
respect to this scheme, which had raised such an c4estery in
every part of the country against a measure which was
against the true principles of inculcating education. He
would leave it to others to point out how impos-
sible it would have been for any portion of the
community who had a sincere reverence for instruction to
acquiesce in such a scheme as was now brought
forward, that religious instruction should be given to parties
of all denominations by teachers, without consideration of
their religious tenets. Be would ask the House only to
conceive such a body as the Privy Council regulating the
instruction of the people ?—( Hear, hear.) But that in-
struction was also to be carried on under a rector.
Lord J. RUSSELL—You leave out about the rec-
tors.—( Laughter.)
Lord STANLEY said if he made any omissions it was
perfectly competent for the Noble Lord to put in an ex-
planatory document, which he had already professed to do.
--(Cheers.) The documents, however, which he had put
in were nct explanatory at all, and the abandonment of the
scheme by the Noble Lord was no abandonment
at all.—( Hear, hear.) According to the plan proposed,
a portion of every day was to be devoted to reading the
Scriptures in the schools under the supervision of the Rec-
tor. Parties professing all denominations; members of
the Church of England', Socinians, and Roman Catholics,
were all to read their own version of the Scriptures
under the superintendence of this Rector.--('. Hear,
hear, hear.") Such a plan was: calculated to excite,
and had continued to excite, the jealousy of the people
of the country, when they were to be told that in these
model schools there was equally read, under the direction
of the same individual, the Roman Catholic version, the Au-
thorized version, and the Socinian version of the Scriptures.
Now, who was this rector to be ? Was he to be a man of
all religions or of no religion at all ?—( Hear.) There
was no security for the religious creed of the rector, and
the fact was that the institution of the rector and his gene-
ral direction of the studies was borrowed from the Glasgow
normal schools—(Cheers)—in which the duty of the rec-
tor was plain and simple, because the whole establishment
was carried on under the direction of the Church of Scot-
land, of which the rector was a member. The Noble Lord
had said, in answer to the various petitions against this mon
serous scheme, that t hey had been got up against the

old scheme which had been given up, and a new one
substituted. He believed there was no person who had
presented petitions who had not stated that their objection
was to th• principle, and that the new scheme was as objec-
tionable as the old ; he thought it more so, as it was mere
ambiguous and far more insidious.--( Hear, hear.) The
objections taken by the petitioners were not against trifling
matters, but the pervading spirit and principle that ac-
tuated her Majesty's Government in bringing forward the
scheme of the 11th of April. The Noble Lord said that
his scheme was abandoned ; he (Lord Stanley) would
fearlessly assert that it was not. It was true that it
was convenient to abandon the defence of it—
that it was convenient to bow to the storm, but
it was also convenient to retain that degree of elasticity
that when the storm was over you might rise again.--
( Cheers.) Such was the situation of her Majesty's Mi-
nisters.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord opposite might
assert that the plan was abandoned, but he would ask
did it not still remains as part of that plan that the funds
were not to be applied solely for the purposes of the two
Societies to which he had adverted, but the Loi ds of the
Privy Council were to judge where grants should be made
and where not. If such a scheme was assented to by
that House, it would place the whole system of education
in the country under four Privy Councillors, together
with their Inspector. With regard to the normal schools,
the outcry in the country had been so great against them,
that the Government felt it would be impossible to
establish them, and then came the new scheme;
and who could doubt, looking at that scheme, that
though to appearance the normal school system was
abandoned, it was that to which the Committee of the
Privy Council would cling ?—(Hear, hear.) The truth
was, that this pretended abandonment had been made for
the purpose of enabling parties to do that, when Parlia-
ment was not sitting, which it would not allow when it
was.—( Hear, hear.) He belt that be had already tres-
pa.sed greatly upon the time of the House, and had but
indifferently discharged the great task he had undertaken.
He felt confident in the good feeling of the majority of the
people of the country ; he felt confident that the majority
of the religious public, of all denominations, had already
condemned the present scheme, and that they would con-
tinue to condemn it, and he was not without hope that
yielding to the sense of the public, the majority of that
House would not that night be foune to assent to so unjust
and uncalled for a scheme—(Hear, hear)—a scheme
which took from Parliament that control which it ought to
nave over the education of the people, and gave it to an
irresponsible council.—(Hear, hear.) If the House did
not repudiate, as he trusted they would, a scheme so
fraught with danger, they would be aiding the establish-
ment of a system of education which would unsettle the
minds of the youthful population of the country, and would
induce a general belief that it was the opinion of the Le-
gislature that equal authority was due to all versions of the
Scripture, and that it was a matter of indifference in what
creed the people were brought up.—( Hear, hear.) Such
a belief was greatly to be deprecated ; for when once
conflicting opinions were entertained upon points of faith,
the foundation of all faith would be gradually shaken, and
as had been stated in many of the petitions in strong terms,
would lead to general scepticism, and from general scep-
ticism the step was short to national infidelity.—( Great
cheering.)
Lord M 0 RPETH had at one time been almost inclined
to flatter himself that all essential differences between
himself and the Noble Lord who had just sat down might
have been confined to Irish ground—( Hear, hear)—and he
might also have indulged in the expectation that if there
was a topic on which, whether on English or Irish ground,
he could flatter himself with the expectation that he might

have the happiness of concurring with the Noble Lord, it
would be the subject of general education.—(Cheers.)
However the speech to which he had just listened had dis-
solved both these pleasing expectations he had formed, and
had convinced him that the speech of the Noble Lord, and
the amendment he had moved, went to this point—to se-
parate by a regular and specific vote of the house the Ex.
ecutive Government of the country—the responsible Minis-
ters of the Crown from all care, controul, and superinten-
dence over the general education of the people.—(Cheers. )
Now that at once decided him (Lord M.) on the vote
which he should be called upon to give. For, so far from
coinciding with the scope and tendency of the Noble Lord's
amendment, he owned it was his wish that that supe-
rintendence should he carried much further, and
exercised far more largely and fully than it could be
by any result of the vote which his Noble Friend
the Secretary of State for the Home Department in-
tended to submit to the House.—( Hear.) There were,
he admitted, many reasons, perhaps sufficiently strong in
point of practical effect, whatever might be their absolute
force and truth, against pressing their interference further,
or carrying out to a greater extent the system of general
education. These reasons were to be found in the diffe-
rence of opinion prevailing in that House and the country,
and the great variety of religious denominations that pre-
vailed in the nation ; most of the persons professing
which, being perhaps mere !prone to maintain what they
thought to be right in their own opinions and practice
(in which, perhaps, they were quite right) than to allow of
differences of opinions in others, and in which he humbly
conceived they were not equally well advised. But, under
the pressure of these circumstances, he thought bis Noble
Friend had exercised a sound discretion in forbearing to
press further the scheme he had originally proposed. Not
that he (Lord Morpeth) had any misgivings as to the na-
ture and tendency of that scheme, as he thought would be
made manifest if its merits ever came to be fairly submit-
ted and argued ; but he thought it was becoming in his
Noble Friend not to press forward a proposition on points
of the highest importance as well as of the greatest deli-
cacy, in the teeth of objections that, however generated
and kept alive, did certainly appear to proceed from the
most opposite quarters, and from those who differed in all
essential particulars.--( Hear, hear.) He thought, there-
fore, his Noble Friend was right, and whether it gave any
triumph to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite or not, he did
not feel himself called upon to enter upon the merits of the
original scheme. He knew too well his own deficiency in
comparison with the gladiatorial talents of the Noble
Lord opposite to risk encountering him in a field where no
laurels were to be gained. But when the No'sle Lord
talked of a sham and nominal abandonment, and when he
recollected that the Noble Lord had been in his speech
most liberal in the use of not the most graceful epithets
and imputations against his (Lord Morpeth's) Noble and
Right Hon. 14 riends, he checked himself by remembering
that the Noble Lord had had such intimate knowledge and
long acquaintance with these Noble Lords and Right Hon.
Gentlemen, that he had no right to quarrel with his ex-
pressions.—( Hear, and cheering.) What, then, was
the main point which the Noble Lord's amendment and
speech brought them to? That it was not fitting that
the responsible Ministry of the country should bear any
part, however slight or curtailed—however, in his ( Lord
M.'s) view, inadequate in superintending and guiding the
general education of the country. The Noble Lord laid
great stress on the proposed Committee of the Privy
Council, and upon the irresponsible power they would
possess, unauthorised by Parliament. Now, if any one
character attached to the professed Board, it was that it,
was eminently responsible—that the Ministers who were
liable to go out of office were far more responsible than
any permanent Board that might be found, and which
would act more independently than the Board established
by the Noble Lord himself in the sister country.—( Hear,
hear.) Why the very last events that occurred with re-
ference to the present question, showed how entirely the
proceedings of the Committee of the Privy Council must
be governed by the feeling of Parliament and of the coun-
try. For it was nothing else than the feeling expressed
by the country and Parliament (which he admitted was
hostile) which bad induced the Board to withdraw its ori-
ginal proposition and introduce in its st'ad another
scheme, better qualified to satisfy the wishes of the coun-
try. The Noble Lord said that all the education of the
country would depend upon the vote of one House of
Parliament, Under what other Administration of the
funds destined for education had they been living ?
( Hear, hear, hear.) The proposed vote of
30,000/. differed in no one respect or particular
from the 20,0001. they bad been voting for tho last four
years.—( Cheers.) They had been founded on votes
brought forward annually, and the other House of Parlia-
ment had had nothing whatever to do with them.—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord complained and expressed his re-
pugnance to placing such power under the controul of a
Treasury minute, confirmed by Act of Parliament; but it
was merely by a Treasury minute, confirmed by Act of
Parliament, that all sums granted for the last four years
bad been voted.--( Hear, hear.) Knowing the paramount
importance of national education, be should be glad to see
a permanent Board established in the country. But he
wished to know where were the materials to be found ? He
would ask the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to point out the constitution upon which they pro-
posed to form such a Board. He believed his Noble Friend
had attempted to form such a Board by uniting the
National and the British and Foreign School Societies.
The National Society insisted on the Catechism being
read in the schools, whereas the British and Foreign
School Society would not sanction that principle. He
could well understand why the Noble Lord had rivetted
the attention of the House to the scheme which was not
before them.—( Hear, hear.) What were the objects of
the vote which it was their hope to obtain from Perlis-
liament ? They had beenprecluded by the state of feeling
in the country from establishing a general central training
school for the masters, or, according to the Noble Lord's
phrase, a normal school, conducted on the best principles
which modern improvements and experience could supply,
and admitting without distinction every master of a school
for which there might be a demand throughout the coon-
try.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But that intention—which
he still maintained would have been the most proper
and suitable for adoption in any system of national
education—that intention had been averted, and
they now proposed to grant one-third of the original
amount for training schools for the two great educational
Societies, the National School and the British and Foreign
School Society, both of which he held in great honour,
the one as possessing the confidence of the great body of
Churchmen, and the other that of the great proportion of
the Dissenting body as well as many Churchmen; he re-
joiced it was proposed to make a fair division of the grant,
nod he for one was far from wishing to make any invidious
distinction.—( Cheers.) Notwithstanding the usual clear-
ness of the Noble Lord's addresses to the House he ( Lord
Morpeth) had been a little at a loss to discover the real
footing on which he wished to have public aid for these
purposes rest.—( Hear, hear.) No one was more ready to
admit the truth of what the Noble Lord had stated rela-

tive to education not being a thing apart from religion;
but when the Noble Lord proceeded to quote from old
French statutes, and Lord Chief Justice Holt, and other
authorities, carrying them back to the feudal times, he
wished to ascertain clearly from the Noble Lord whether

their religious liberty, in matters of education, was to be
regulated upon the model of those times.—( Loud cheers.)
The Noble Lord said be would not take the education of
the children of the Church out of the hands of the Church.
Who wanted it—who wished it?__( Hear, ,hear. and cheers, )
While, however, be admitted that national education was
not a thing apart from religion, he would demur to the
proposition that it was a thing not apart from the Church.
_(Hear.) The Noble Lord was correct iu stating that
in the proposition now brought forward they departed in
two essential particulars from previous practice. One was