The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

come forwari and give the.CommissioLers all the sul port and
lssisianeein their power.

Lord J. RUSSELL here made an observation which (as
we understood) related to the short time the Government hid
hitherto had to• bring forward any measure in connection with
:he question, or the Commissioners to report upon it.
Sir G. CLERK—Time I Why, had there not been time
enough since the Commission was appointed, in 1833 ?
( Hear.) It had, been now on foot upwards of two years, at an
.expense to the country of about 17,000/., and the report the
Commissioners had sent in related only to the City of Edin-
burgh end three other parishes.—( Hear.) Now, he thought
the Noble Lord might at least have ssid that the Government
.vould take it into consideration as far as it went. The
Noble Lord said the resolution of his Right Hon. Friend was
delusive. But what was there in it contrary to the facts?—
( Hear.) With respect to the vacant seats in the 'Dissenting
chapels, would the Noble Lord think of naming, as an excuse
for not endowing, the Church of the Establishment, the fact of
there being plenty of empty seats in other chapels in Edinburgh?
Perhaps there were no places of worship in Edinburgh which
were worse attended than the Catholic chapels ; but would the
Noble Lord send Presbyterians to hear mass in Catholic cha-
pels ?—( Hear, hear.) Let him call the attention of the Noble
Lord to the fact that his Right Hon. Friend had not embodied
in his resolutions anything which was not the result of the
Commission of Inquiry. With respect to the landed pro-
prietors of Scotland there was no class of the community on
which exclusively the Church burthens were so heavily thrown
is upon them.—( Hear.) In Scotland no complaint of Church-
rates was heard. And why but because they were a tax which
wee entirely thrown upon landed proprietors.—( Hear, hear.)
Their burthens were heavier far than those of their correspond-
ing class, either in England or Ireland. In the districts of
Glasgow in which the poorer classes resided, among whom, he
was sorry to say, there were many who were more frequently
in the police-oltice than the house of God, not two-and-a-half
per cent. of the population had church room —( Hear.) In
Edinburgh there were from 40,000 to 50,000 persons who never
Attended a place of worship at all, and, under such circumstances
is these, did it become a Christian Government to interpose the
delay of a single day in applying a remedy for such evils ?
His Right Hon. Friend had said already that 150 churches
had been built in Scotland at the expense of private indi-
duals. What they wanted, therefore, was not a large and
exorbitant sum of money, but only such a grant as would
enable them to admit the poor into them at a reasonable cost—
( Hear, hear)—and pay as small a remuneration as the cir-
cumstances would admit of to the Clergyman to whose care
they would be entrusted. ( Hear, hear.) They had a strong
claim on the Government, and they put it forward with no
view to relieve the rich, but to enable them to give their
poorer fellow-creatures church accommodation at as cheap a
rate as possible. He thought the Government ought to come
forward with provision for the extension of the means of edu-
cation to the Scottish people. At the same time he thought
that, wherever an endowment was made, the Clergyman
ought to be placed under the strictest regulations as regarded
the letting of the seats. Ile thought it ought to be made a
condition of the endowment that the scat-rents should he
fixed at the lowest possible sum, in order to admit of their
use by the greatest possible number of persons. The Noble
Lord had told them that the Cymmissioners were still en-
gaged in other branches of inquiry, which they had not been
able to complete—partieularly that which related to the un-
appropriated tithes in Scotland. Why, what difficulty was
there in the way of their haring made this report complete in
this respect as regarded Edinburgh? The greater part of these
unappropriated tithes were in the city of Edinburgh. It was a
well-known fact that most of the Clergy of Edinburgh were
maintained by a house tax. The remaining churches were
unendowed, and were paid by scat rents. Before these there
were the rural parishes. There would have been no difficulty
whatever in obtaining all the requisite information on these
heads, had the Commissioners been so disposed. One fact
that had come to his knowledge would illustrate the conduct
of the Commissioners. Was the Noble Lord aware that the
Commissioners, having applied at the Dean's Office for cer-
tain
information, was met by a request for a grant of money
for additional assistance, in order to enable them, by the em-
ployment of an additional clerk to supply the necessary re-
turns in sufficient time. This request was refused, and the
Commissioners, consequently, would have to pursue that
branch of the inquiry at a future time. So, in order to save
501. for the salary of a copying clerk, this Commission was
to sit another year at the expense of thousands I It was the
duty of Government to have seen to its instructions, that no
such practice as this could occur.—( Hear, hear.) Then as
to the amount of the Church property. It was a matter of
no consequence whatever to ascertain the precise amount. If
it was large, why there was then the greater reason for a large
grant. The greater part of the property had already been
transferred to the Commissioners of land revenue, and it now
formed a part of the Consolidated Fund. If, too, there was a
large amount arising out of the Bishop's rents at the disposal
of the Crown, it added a still stronger argument in favour of
this demand. • A great part of those rents were now unappro-
priated. That this grant was really wanted no man who knew
the present state of a great portion of the populace of Edin-
burgh and other parts of Scotland could doubt. Did any one
doubt the benefits derivable from the habits induced by reli-
gious iastruction ? It was but necessary to look at the con-
dition and general habits of those who had received such
instruction to be convinced how absolutely necessary it was to
the well-being of the State. If the Noble Lord would once
try the experiment lie would soon be aware of the results. He
would find it in the decreased expense of criminal prosecutions
in Scotland, of the increase of which lately the Lord Advocate
had already given so alarming a statement. He would also
find the consequences of it apparent in the decreased expense
of the preventive police of the country, and in the general re-
duction of crime.
Mr. J. H. JOHNSTONE entered into a detailed state-
ment of the proceedings of the Commissioners, from their ap-
pointment to the delivery of the Report, for the purpose of
showing that, situated as they had been, they could not pos-
sibly have proceeded with more dispatch. In voting for the
resolutions he hoped to have credit given to him for sincerity,
and for its being impossible for. him to mix up any extraneous
or unworthy considerations in a question of such vital and so-
lemn interest. That a case had been made out on behalf of
the supporters of the resolutions was, he thought, beyond
question. Out of a population of 160,000 in Edinburgh not
less than 40,000 were not habitual attendants at church, and
14,000 there were who professed not to belong to any sect of
Christians whatever.—( Hear, hear.) It was stated that there
was a deficiency of a thousand seats in Edinburgh, but he
thought the actual want was double that number. But, what-
ever the relative numbers might be, it was equally the duty of
the Government to interfere. This subject could not much
longer be deferred. The country wee anxiously looking for
some act on the part of the Government, and the Noble Lord
might depend upon it that, apart from all other considerations,
good policy alone called on him to stand forward and support
the Establishment.—( Cheers. )
Lord J. RUSSEL L rose in explanation. He had been
misunderstood if he had been supposed to make any charge
against the Commissioners. All he meant to convey was, that
the Commissioners, not having been able to come to any pre-
cise and definite report, not having presented any specific re-
medy, it became the more necessary for the Government care-
fully to consider the subject. He would take that opportu-
nity of stating further that, while he admitted the existence of
the evil, and that undoubtedly it was a fit case for the deepest
consideration, yet that as regarded both the nature of that evil
and the proposed remedy, considerable doubt must be enter-
tained. With respect to the nature of the evil he was by no
means sure that it could be asserted to arise chiefly from the
want of accommodation in the Churches, for he vas aware
that instruction was not given to the people in their own houses.
However, in whatever way the subject was considered it was
one of the deepest importance, and one which required the
most mature: consideration by the Governmerit.
Mr. GILLON thought that the lion. Mover and his sup-
porters, might have spared the House this discussion at the pre-
sent moment, and that they might have waited until the Com-
missioners had made a more full report. So intense, however,
was the zeal of the Hon. Gentlemen, that they pressed the
I huse to come to a decision, even_ on an incomplete report.
Ile had some objection to make to the statements on the other
side with respect to the want of religious instruction in Edin-
burgh. It was stated that the population was 162,292. But,
according to the received estimates in the legal Courts, the
number requiring Church accommodation was 72,132. Now,
what was the Church accommodation in Edinburgh ? Why,
the accommodation in Churches was for 36,706 ; in the Dis-
senting places of worship for 42,000. These, added together,
made 78,706. If from this sum was deducted the number
of persons requiring accommodation, it would appear that
there was a surplus of accommodation for 6,574 over and
above the actual demand for it. At this moment there were
no less than 21,154 vacant seats in Dissenting places of
worship. From one of the boroughs which he (Mr. Gillen)
represented an account was sent in to the General Assembly
of a deficiency of accommodation for 4,200. On in-
quiry, however, it turned out that there was actually a sur-
plus accommodation for 1,000, if the Dissenting accommoda-
tion was taken into the account. Again, it was stated in the
report, deducting from the whole population the Dissenters,
that there was a deficiency of accommodation for 4,348 ; but
in the report it also appeared (at pp. 4 and 23) that four addi-
tional churches had since been built, and that additional ac-
commodation for 621 had been added to another church. It
was also urged that the amount paid for the scat rent was too
high. But he found that in the churches of the Establish-
ment alone there were 6,317 seats paying less than ss. per an-
num ; and, unlet and unoccupied, 248 paying annually less
than 25.; 708 unlct and unoccupied paying from 2s. to 3s.
per annum; and, unlet and unoccupied, 3,301 seats at less
annual cost than ss. Now, when that was the case, how could
it be said that there was any want of seat accommodation ?
lie agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member fur
Edinburgh that the people of Scotland were averse to church
accommodation unless they paid for it ; but having shown that
there were 3,301 seats at ss. a year, and 1,000 at less than 35.,
unoccupied in the churches of the metropolis, he certainly
should like to know how the Right lion. Baronet justified
the picture of destitution which he had drawn.—( Hear, hear.)
But it was proposed by the Hon. Members opposite that the
parochial system should be adopted in Edinburgh. If he un-
derstood their proposition it was that the city should be di-
vided iitto districts, and that each should have its own church
and minister, to whose ministration the population of each par-
ticular district was to be confined. If that were to be the pa-
rochial system which was intended, all lie need say was that
,the report of the Commissioners clearly showed that it would
be altogether inapplicable. There was one parish in Edin-
burgh, in which a popular preacher had officiated for the last
.six or seven years, and it was a curious fact that out of the
whole of his parishioners only seven individuals and two fa-
milies had attended his ministrations during , six of those
years. Now the stipend which this clergYinan received
was from 2,0001. to 3,0001. a-year, and if the ministers to
be appointed under the new parochial system were to be
paid according to the same ratio, sec what an enormous ex-