The Sun.
London, England, 1839-06-19 00:00:00

EVENING _EDITION.

Gentleman was received with loud cries of " Oh, oh,"
and strange noises, when it was found that he intended to
persist.)—He was aware how anxious the House was to
proceed to the important question to be brought forward
by the Hon. Member for London, and therefore he could
assure them that he would be as brief as possible in his
statement.—(" Oh, oh.") The population of this country
had entirely changed its character within the last thirty-
five or forty years—now many who were then engaged in
agricultural pursuits were now congregated in large ma-
nufacturing towns, the population congregated in which
now amounted to between. three and a half and four mil-

F lions of people, mostly of the humbler classes. They were
bzdly lodged, being cooped up all the week in cellars
and small rooms, aituz.ted in narrow lanes they
had no day for enjoyment but the Sundays,
and upon that day they were deprived of the benefit of
country air from the want of public places in their neigh.
bourhood. It was to provide such recreation for them
that he pressed his motion.
Mr. BROTHER TON seconded the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL perfectly *Treed in the necessity
of public walks and open spaces for the working classes
in the neighbourhood of large towns, but the resolution
before the House did not advance the object, as it pointed
out or provided no means. •
Mr. HUME said the Government ought to take up the
question, as it was one of much importance.
Sir R. IN and Mr. SANFORD hoped the
Hon. Member would not press his motion, as it was so
indefinite that many must oppose it who agreed in the
piinciple.

Mr: MARK PHILLIPS airecd that the resolution
would not effect the object they had in view, although he
-was almost at a loss to know in what shape the subject
could be properly brought forward. He thought Crown
lands might be exchanged for land in the neighbourhood of
Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and other places for the
purpose of establishing public walks there.

Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to join the expression
of his wish to what appeared to be the general wish
of the House, that the Honourable Gentleman would
not press his motion to a division.—(He4r, hear, hear.)
He thought public aid might be given in assistance to li-
beral local contributions, and that it would go far towards
providing some means of recreation, would contribute to

the public health, and would also gratify those who had
the greatest means of annoyance, if they felt they were
neglected.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON concurred in what bad fallen
from the Right lion. Baronet.
Mr. SLANEY then withdrew his motion, hoping the
Government would take the subject up in the way that
had been suggested.

vV
THE BALLOT-
Mr. BRISCOE hoped, before his Hon. Friend sub-
mitted his motion to the House, that he might be al-
lowed to present a petition from nine respectable electors
of the borough of Westhury, who stated that having voted
at the last general election against Sir Ralph Lopez, they
had received nc.t'ees to quit, which notices had been fol-
lowed up by processes of ejectment, and that the peti-
tioners had, been obliged to quit their occupations, to the
annoyance of their families anti the interruption of their
business, although some of the petitioners had improved
the value of the property they had occupied on the under-
standing that they were not to be disturbed in the posses-
sion of it.

Mr. GROTE presented four petitions in favour of the
Ballot. The Honourable Member then said, that in
rising to renew the motion which he had already made,
in several preceding sessions, for leave to bring in a Btll
providing that the votes at Parliarlentary elections should
be-taken by wiy of Ballot. he felt the many discussions
this subject had undergone, forbade his indulging the hope
that he could introduce any fresh argument in its favour,
but he would not be det,:rred on that account from solicit-

ing a very moderate portico of the time of the House.
Although he would be very brief, yet he did not think

it necessary to throw aside arguments that were really
relevant and forcible, simply because they had been used
before. All historical exparienee assured him that poli-
tical conclusions were only arrived at by renewed discussion
of the same topics, and more than all, by the continual
pressure of the same unremedied evils.--( gear, hear.)

in one respect he approached this discussion with an ad-
vantage he had not before enjoyed. It was satisfactory to
him to anticipate that the Ballot was not likely to be any
len,gcr made a subject of formal opposition by the Cabinet,
and that if any objection were made by members of tie

Government to the Ballot, it would arise from their indi-
vidual opinions.—( Hear, hear.) If be were asked whether
he believed the proposition he was making would rectify
all the evils in the representa'ive system, be would answer
without hesitation, he did not believe it would.—( Hear,
hear.) He agreed with those who thouzbt the present
suffrage was too narrow, and too unequally distributed, .yet
he confidently affirmed it was a complete remedy
against one of the grossest and moat grievous
of those defects the intimidation and corruption
now practised in the legitimate exercise of the fran-
aise,—( Hear, bear, hear.) To those who opposed the
Ballot on the ground that the Reform Act was to be a fi.:al
measure, he would say, 'did they mean that the intimida-
tion and corruption which now disgraced the working of
that Act, were to be final also.—(Cheer:;.) 'He could net
suppose that the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home
Department, meant to discountenance all remedies for
proved electoral abuses, although, undoubtedly, many of
their arguments seemA to him tacitly to imply it.—
Hezr, hear.) He entertained no faith in that doctrine
which proclaimed the Reform Act to be a final
measure, and he would not scruple to contend that
Gentlemen who differed with him on that point
might yet, with perfect consistency, support the
Ballot, unless they considered themselves pledged
not merely to the finality of the Reform Act, but also to
the finality of corruption and intimidation ; fur whether
the franchise were confined or extended, the protection of
the Ballot was indispensable. The Ballot was no enlarge-
went or disturbance of any limit fixed be the Perform
and he (Mr. Grote) advocated the Ballot as the only ctr-
eirnt
remedy for gross electoral abuses.—(Hear.) It was
a matter of history, that in the first speech with which the
Noble Lord had ushered in the Reform Bdl, he stated the
questions as to the proper mode of taking votes, and of the
duration of Parliaments, were not to be determined by that
Bill. If any one would point out a way of effectually banishing
corruption and intimidation, and imuring freedom of elec.
tion under open suffrage, he would abandon the Ballot at
once.—(Cheers.) There was no option between adopting
the Ballot on the one hand, and keeping the present sys. •
tern en the other. Voters were now made to vote under
the fear of loss or the hope of gain, by promises or by
threats. The secret suffrage would be an effectual ber to
these evils, for he defied human ingenuity to punish any

man in consequence of an invisible vote.—( Hear...) When
he heard so many Gentlemen denouncing the Ballot as a
clernoeratical innovation, he was persuaded they did not
differ much as to the real svcrking of the 'Ballot, however
much they might dislike the working of ir; for in what sense
could the Ballot be said to be a democratic measure ? It
gave no vote to any one. Those who objected to the
Ballot must of necessity admit that there were a conside-
rable number of persons who would give democratic votes
if they were not restrained by fear.—( Cheers.) This
measure would only liberate them from unnatural restraint.
Ever, amongst those who objected to tee Ballot there were
a great number who proceeded upon the full admission of
its working as a remedy against interference at elections,
and as a preservative of the freedom of election.—( Hear.)
That was sufficient to induce him to continue its advo-
cacy. The right of voting had. been conferred on
a certain description of persons. That gift ought to be
confirmed and sealed by the Ballot, for without it their
franchise was useless to the country, and a misfortune and
a curse to themselves.—( Cheers.) He would not cite
individual cases in illustration of the evil, because there
could not be a doubt of its reality. If there was to be a
representative system, there must be some class of voters
dependent. To expect from them that " strong divinity
of soul which conquers chance and fate," which the
richer man did not exhibit, was nothing better than an
an idle dream.—(Cheers.) Much had been said as to the
probability of a dissolution of Parliament at no distant
period. The prospect of that dissolution made him more
anxious to press forward this measure, in order to prevent
a recurrence of the evils which bad so frequently taken
place.—( Cheers.) The right of the free exercise of opi-
nion by people of this country was their conviction, and to
convert that conviction into reality was the charm and
virtue of the Ballet,—( Cheers.) He now recommended
the measure to the consideration of the House. He knew
not whether they would reject it or not, but he was con-
vinced that in sober confidence they would nut reject it
long.—(Cheers.)
Lord WORSLEY, in seconding the motion, was con-
vineed, that unless the protection of the Ballot was afforded,
this House would not long retain the confidence of the
people.—( Hear, hear.) There were some individuals
who had said that he had been requested by Members of
the Government to second the motion, but this he begged
to deny. The reason for his taking a prominent part in
the debate was from a firm conviction that some protection
should he given to the voters in the exercise of their fran-
chise ; for his impression was that the Ballot would pre-
vent the intimidation which was so common ; one instance
of which had come within his own knowledge, that of a
banker in the country having prevented-a person exercising
his right because he was under,some obligation to him.—
(Cheers.) It was curious to observe how the divisions
on the Ballot had increased. In 1830, on a
motion made by the lion, and Learned Member for Dub-
lin (then Member for Clare), he was supported by the
votes of twenty-one members. In 1833 the number vot-
ing for the Bailot was 106; in 1834, 82; in 1835, 144;
in 1836, 88 ; in 1837, 153; and in 1838, 198. —( Cheers.)
Perhaps he (Lord Worsley) should explain why he, repre-
senting a county, should have come forward in defence of
the Ballot, but previously to his last election be had gone
round to his constituents and informed them that if re-
elected he should support that measure.—( Hear, hear.)
He was convinced that there was now an absolute neces-
sity for some legislative enactment to prevent that
corruption and intimidation which it had so long
been vainly hoped would diminish.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
And he felt confident that if the protection of the Ballot
were not afforded to voters, they would consider the fran-
chise not a privilege but a burden.—( Hear, hear.) He
knew the steward of a near connection of his, who, when
asked how his master's tenants would vote -their landlord
being out of the country—replied, that those who held
freeholds he thought might vote as they chose; but that
as to those that held 501 leases, he considered it his con-
scientious duty to his master to tell them that they should
vote for their latidlord.—( Laughter, and hear, hear.) lie
did not believe that th,• Ballot would do away with the
leeitirnate influence of property ; and for this opinion he
had the authority of Lord Althorp, who said, that the
Ballot would only prevent the undue influence of property.
—( Hear, hear.) He firmly believed that if the Ballot
were not adopted by that House it would he thouglit that
those who supported the Reform Bill were not sincere in
so doing, and that those who had opposed the Bill were
equally insincere in their present professions of submission
to its enactments, which they were only anxious to evade.
--(Hear, hear. )
Mr. G A SKELL admitted that never had greater
public interest been excited respecting the Ballot than at
the present period ; but contended that the Ballot was
inimical to the first principles of the Constitution•—(Hear
hear.) He believed that every argument for the Ballot,

as applied to voting for Members of that House, was equally
good for the secret voting of the Members themsette s.—
( Hear, hear, and cries of Oh, oh ! ) He was crrta'n
that the Ballot would not prevent bribery and intit-reda-
tion—it had been tried and failed—(Name I)—at Rome—
( Laughter)—in the Italian States—( Hear, hear, from the
Opposition and laughter from the Ministerial benches)—and
in the United States.—(Laughter and Oh, oh I from
the Libsrals. Hear, heart, from the Opposition.) Miss Mar-
tiacau—( Poa -s of laughte: from tie Ministerial benches)
—had borne her tettimony to tie t x ,t-ince of corruption
and intimidation in America, notwithstanding the Ballot.
If on any future occasion the House should he unhappily in..
duced to concede this revolutionary measure, they would
strike a fatal blow at the moral character and civil liber-
ties of the people.
Mr. M ACA CLAY rose and was received with loud
cheers. He said that having entered the House after a
long absence he could have wished it bad been in his power
to have remained for some weeks at least a silent listener
to their proceedings, but the deep interest he took in the
question, and his sense of what was due to a large and re-
spectable portion of his constituents, irepesed on him
the necessity of trespassing on the attention of the
House—(Cheers)—but before making any remarks on
the present subject of debate, be wished to address himself
to one topic which was exciting the greatest interest at the
present moment, and to which the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had alluded in some sarcastic, and, in
his opinion, not exceedingly well judged remarks. It had
been extetts:vely reported that it was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to make the question of the Ballot
an open question—in other words, that on this question the
members of the Government would vote each in accord-
ance with his individual opinion.—( Loud cheers.) It
was natural that this determination should have ex.
cited censtre on the one side of the House and appro-
bation on the other ; for h:s own part, without any refer-
ence to his own opinion on this particular question he was
inclined on higher and more general grounds to approve of
this & termination, on the part of Government.—(Cheers.)
He rejoiced to see the number of open questions increas-
ing.—( Loud cheers.) He rejoiced to see they were re

turning to the wise practice Xilich had prevailed in that
House in the times of their fathers and their grandfathers.
_ .

The practice of the House on this subject had undergone a
great change ; he believed that another great change was
now at band.t To -what extent it was desirable that the
Ministers of the Crown should act in concert was an ex-
ceedingly nice-question—a question as far as he was aware.
—( A laugh from the Opposition side, responded to by
loud cheers from the Ministerial side.) Honourable
Gentlemen opposite possessed a great advantage over him
in being aware of what had occurred in that House
during the last four years, but he was riot aware that
any practical statesmsn had either by speech or writing
laid down a distinct line of demarcation on this subject:
This was Hain that there were only three courses that
could possibly be pursued—eithrr the Ministers of the
Crown must agree in all their opinions on every legisla-
tive question, or they must express an agreement when
they lei reality differed, or there must be open questions.
With regard to the first case, he would quote the opinion
of a high constitutional authority. It was an expression
of the great Lord Chathain's, that although a house di-
vided against itself could not stand, yet where could they
find tweive men whose minds were cast in the same mould ?
He would go further ; he would take the instance of two
men who had been always brought together, who had
been educated together, and who had mutually exer-
cised the greatest inflamice over one another in the
formation of their minds, and he would ask could men thus
situated be found who would agree with each otherin their
opinions or politics? He was certain that this would seldom
be found to be the case. He spoke not of her -Majesty's
present Government, nor of the Government which had
preceded it, nor of the Government which had been pro-
posed to be formed the other day, but every Government
at its formation was necessarily constituted of a variety of
noblemen and gentlemen, many of whom had never before
seen each other, and some of whom had previously been
strongly opposed to each other. How could unanimity,
except by miracle, be expereed in a Gov, rnraent to con-
stituted ?—it was impossible. He did not profess any great
prudery in political matters; he knew that it was
impossible that anything could be done in Par-
liament without co operation, and he knew that
there could be no co-operation without compromise. He.
considered that Members were justified in procuring that
mutual co-operation by mutual compromise. In this point
of view Members would be justified in giving their votes,
not with reference to the- mere terms of the question, but '
with reference to the state of parties. If any one should
think this view of the subject wrong, he would tell him
that be respected his conscientious scruples, but that lie
was not fitted to enter into the field of politics in England.
Such a mar had better retire into a private station, as his
scruples as much unfitted him for entering on a political
career, as the equally conscientious scruples of a Quaker
would eta& him fur taking the command of a regiment.
Although this system was just end proper to a
great extent, yet it might be carried too far, as,
for instance, if a Member of that Hoese were
to say no to a proposit'on which he believed to be true, or
were to vote for a Bill through all its stages to which he
conscientiously objected, such a Member might be said to
go with his party against his conscience. Although he
considered this an extremely indefensible practice, yet it
constituted the exception to the great rule of morality, and
the exception should be strictly construed, se as not to be-
come the rule. He considered a Government would do
wrong to require from its Members any concession of old.
nion not necessary for the vigorous conduct of its affairs.
lie was not now pleading the cause of innovation—he
was attacking a modern abuse, and was pleading for a re-
turn to the old principles of Government.—( Hear, hear,
hear,) It had been said that the Catholic question
under Lord Liverpool's Government was the first instance of
an open question. This was a gross error—the general
rule under all Governments fifty years ago was, that all
questions were to be considered as open questions, except
those measures which were brought forward by the Go-
vernment as a Government, and fur which all Members of
the Government were expected to vote, and thos,., mea-
sures which were brought -forward for the purpose of cast-
ing censure on the Government, or on any of its Members
which, of course, all Members of the Government were ex-
pected to oppose. He would say that this was the rule
laid down, and that it was impossible to find any exception •
to it. Let them look at Mr. Pitt's Administration—his
India BM, on his Budget, and othi r questions of a
like nature, but questions of a very important nature both
commercial and political, were left by that Government as
open questions. The question of Parliamentary Reform
had been left as an open question. The question of the
impezeliment of Warren Hastings had been left as
an open question; so had the question as to whether
that impeachment had been abated by the dissolution of
Parliainent in 1790 e-the powers of _juries in cases or
libel—the question of the abolition of the slave trade_all
these had been left as open questions by Mr. Pitt's Go.
vernment, and members of the. Government were
to be found speaking and voting for and against
those questions in both Houses of Parliament.—(Hear.)
Was the effect of that policy to enfeeble the administra-
tion ? Directly the contrary ; there never was a Ministry
that preSented a mere formidable front to the Opposition.
He would not pretend to draw the line precisely, but he •
was satisfied it had been drawn too strictly, and he was
glad to see that they were returning to good maxims. .He
was sure the Government would find that by taking the
course they had done they had increased their strength.
Ile would now come- to the particular question. He
should vote for the motion of the lion. Member
for the City of London, but in doing so he wished it dis-
tinctly to be understood, that in giving his sanction to
secret voting he would withhold his support from any Bill
that did not secures ecrecy. He should also reserve to himself,
how far be would give his assent to a Bill for improving
the registration. He thought it would be most disingenu-
ous to give a vote saddling it with conditions which were im-
possible to be complied with, but he thought those to which
he had adverted could not come under that denomination.
Subject to those conditions he should give his support to
the motion of the Honourable Member for the City of
London, but he could not say that he did so upon
all the grounds upon which many of the supporters of the
Ballot rested their case. He did not conceive that it was
a case in which the arguments were all on one side. He
could not agree with the Hon. Member for the city of
London that the Ballot was a preventive of bribery, be-
cause he thought in a small constituency it would exist,
but he.considered it to be the specific remedy for intimida-
tion.—(llear, hear.) There was a time when he thought
that etil would have died a natural death, but
he had been obliged to give up that hope and
he now felt satisfied that it was a growing evil.
and one that had considerably increased within the last
seven years. He thought this evil was to be attributed to
the Reform Bill, for that measure although it had swept
away many abuses, had given new life and vigour to
the abuses it had spared.—( Hear, bear.) It was impose
sible for him to close his eyes to the evils that existed, and
if he was to. believe the outcry that existed, many of the
Hon. Members of that Iloilo owed their seats to votes
extorted by fear- —( Hear, hear.) If there was any such
person in that House who owed his seat to such a cause,
it would be infinitely better that he sat for Old Sarum, for
there there were no threats and no ejectments.—(Hear.)
He hated all tyranny, but the worst species of tyranny
was that which worked with the machinery of freedom.
—( Hear.) The Noble Lord who had seconded the motion of
the Hon. Member for the city of London bad said that
this motion, to deprive
whecaidtilid onfot wish, in
it supporting
ce ; neither did he (Mr.
Macaulay) ; but could it be said to have its legitimate in.
flaence when it was applied to the purposes of bribery.
If bribery were so objectionable, what was to be said
about intimidation ? Vote with me, or I will turn you out
of your farm---vote with me, and I will give you 201. for a
pair of votes.—(Oh, oh, from Colonel Sibtherp, and
great laughter.) Why that practice had been admitted on
all hands.—(Cheers.) " Vote for me, or I shall carry
my custom to the shoemaker's shop in the next street."
The feet was, lie almost dissented from the wording of the
Hon. Member for London's motion in that respect. He
objected to au antithesis being made between intimidation
and corruption. Intimidation was nothing but corruption
in its most leathsome form, stripped of every blandishment
lied grace which hospitality and liberality and good hu-
mour could confer upon it, and exhibited in allits stern, and
loathsome, and naked reality. It was corruption working
by barbarity and tyranny, and oppression, and that species
of corruption was unhappily the easiest and they m
cheapesteaaaof
of all. A man could not be long corrupted by
or retrenching
nothing, It involved
promises,Cbroirtrtuhprteiaotnsbmyight be continued for an indefinite
period.
no necese costgatghirnegatsone;a
estatee,
one's expenses—it might be carried on secretly and se-
curely ; and while it was the cheapest and most easily re-
re-
sorted to by the party employing it, so it was the most
to the virtue of the party to whom it was npplied,
trying what he never
than to surrender what be bad been accustomed to.
wasin much more easy for a man to refuse
had,
( Hear, heer.) There were many men who would throw
away the eurse of a candidate with some, but who could,
not resist the fear of ar. action of ejectment.—( Cheers.) As
that system was the most easily end cheaply resorted to.
it was the safest of all. It might be practised with,
perfect impunity. Those who by bribery and that system of
hospitality rendered men happy were liable to be punished,
while those who, by another system of corruption, made