The Sun.
London, England, 1839-03-06 00:00:00

unfortunate, especially when the Admiralty bad the means regard to the difference of the armament of the ships, there
of giving every information. In conclusion he thanked was a great difference of opinion in the Navy, and he should
the House for the attention with which it had listened to reserve himself on that point till the Estimates came before
him—( Cheers)—and begged to move " That with due con- the House. On the present motion he must decline voting
sideration of the exigencies of the State, it is important to with the Gallant Admiral.
the interests and honour of the country that either Majesty's Lord INGE STR E expressed his concurrence in many
ships in commission shall have such a complement of men of the views stated by the Gallant Admiral. He appre-
as will render them efficient in any emergency, and that an hended, from what bad fallen from the Secretary at War,
humble address be presented to her Majesty praying that that it was impossible the subject could be referred to the
her Majesty will be graciuusly pleased to enlarge the powers Commission ; but that was no reason why it might not be
of the Naval and Military Commission now sitting, so as referred to the Board of Admiralty. He hoped these
to embrace the subject of pensions, and every other sub- grievances would be considered by the Admiralty at no dis-
ject which they think beneficial to the public service."— tant
Adm day.
(Hear, hear ) iral ADAM said, ae the Navy Estimates were so
Mr. G RANTL EY BERKELEY seconded the mo- soon again to come under the consideration of the House,.
lion. Ile thought it would be better to have fewer ships many of the topics dwelt on by the Gallant Admiral would
and well manned, than to have a large number of ships ill be more fitly discussed then than at present. A most corn-
mimed. It had been acknowledged by the Hon. Member plete inquiry had been made into the several means of pro-
for Halifax in his speech last night, that increasing con- vision and retirement, and he trusted when the Repot of
deranation had followed every act of the Admiralty. If the Commission appeared, that it would be quite satisfac-
that was the case there must be something wrong in the tory. As to going into any further discussion, he was gra- .
management of the Admiralty, awl be hoped the House tified to hear his Hon. Friend state what was the opinion
would agree to the motion of the Gallant Admiral, and of the Duke of Wellington, and he believed it would ap.
mark its sense of that which had gone before. The Gal- pear that arty further inquiry was unnecessary. As the
!ant Member for Sandeich last night (Sir T. Troubridge) Commission had not yet finished its inquiries, it would be
apeeared to have taken umbrage at what had fallen premature to address the Crown on the subject. As to
'corn the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. F. H. Berkeley), the question of complements, it was very unadvisable
,rd appeared to dislike the term " nest of hornets" being that there should be these complements.—( Hear,
pplied to the Board of Admiralty. Without wishiog to hear.) It was of more importance to the service
,y anything disrespectful to the Gallant Admiral, he for that a number of ships should be employed, so that
e would rather liken that Board to a nest of drones,— ( ffieers should obtain experience. It had been stated again
eel t 4—and if the head of that Board chose to place that it was better to have fewer ships and more men. He
sif it, the light of a Queen Bee, he had the power to should say that they ought to have as many ships as the
but if he permitted the English Flag to suffer the men could properly manage ; he was perfectly ready to
it disgrace, the Head of the Admiralty was not en- state the' there was such an establishment as ought to give
the confidence of the country.—( Hear, bear.) He satisfaction to the service and the country at large, and he
e hints thrown out by Captain Berkeley in his could not but regret that any gentleman should have put
ist would not he forgotten by the Admiralty, and he before the public that which he ought to have reserved for
ask whether Captain Berkeley would have been dis- Iris colleagues at.d the Board. This had led to a result
I from his situation if his views had coincided which lie ( Admiral A.) sincerely regretted, for there was
the First Lent cf the Admiralty ?—( Hear, hear.) no one for whom he had a greater respect, but he could
sass glad that captain Berkeley did publish that state- not stand here and allow it to be said that it was Captain
a aed he trusted that he would never see one 4 his Berkeley's pamphlet which drove his Colleagues to consider
,ly •I:liged to sit at the Board, and, like a blind puppet, what was neceis try, and he must say that it was rather
ciag at the will of his leader.—( A laugh.) He was singular the pamphlet should have been written at all, for
a the motion of the Hen, and Gallant Admiral would at the time it was put forth the subject was under the full
tires' good, and he felt much pleasure in seconding it. consideration of the BOard, and the only difference of opi-
terd HOWICK would not offer any remark upon the talon was as to some slight modifications. There were
anon of the Gallant Admiral, of which no notice had several topics which the Gallant Member for Brighton had
'en given, nor would he go into the Hon. and Gallant eetcred into which had better come under the considers-
eficer's statements. He rose merely as a mem- tion of the House when the Navy Estimates were brought
.r of the Commission on Naval and Military forward, and on these he should, therefore, decline giving
ran-16°1-A to express his opinion that the duties which any opinion at present.
ae! r!.• devolved on it were as much as they could with ad- Captain BOLD E R 0 wished to put a question to the
, e ,'..;:: be called upon to perform. It was of considerable Gallant Officer opposite as to what had taken place last
1 ~:-. ~a-e that the Report of that Commission should be night. After he (Captain Boldero) had delivered his opi-
• a.'y ei possible presented to the House, and it would niens on the question then under discussion, the Gallant
e eaere 1,)., quite impo=sible for it to undertake the gene- 05ficer said there had been too much party spirit in dis-
e i el&ry which the Hon. and Gallant Admiral had re- cussing this point. He wished to know if the Gallant
ra, l to. lie really knew not where the terms of such Officer meant by that observation to apply it personally to
:1...ea:0 or inquiry w :tilt' stop. He hoped the C'rrn- him (Captain Boldero). He never was such a bigot or so
us,,,ii would be able to make its Resort shortly after blind as not to listen to reason—( Hear, hear)—and if his
;:aster, and meantime he would state that at a meeting votes were looked at, it would be found, that one-third of
r tlie Commission that morning, his Grace the Duke of them had been given on the other side of the House.
Sa.!tington had expressed an opinion against tha pro- The man who showed party spirit on a military question was
real enlarged inquiry. He (Lord II.) had asked his unworthy of the coat he wore or of a seat in this House. So
eras, whether he was authorised to express in his name long as he had the honour of a seat in this Elouse he would give
hat the object of the inquiry had been already sufficiently his opinion openly, honestly, and fairly, and never mix party
xten led, to which his Grace had answered that he was spirit with a question of such vital importance.—( Hear,
at
.libcrty to express his decided opinion to that (ff act. He 'hear. )
rie,ted these few words would induce the House to le ject The SPEAKER said that in many of the discussions in
in arldross to the Crown for such a purpose. this House, it was constantly said this is a subject in which
sir GEORGE STAUNTON defended the conduct there ought to he no party spirit, and it ought not to be
af St. John Barrow, who had been for thirty yei:s a ser- introduced—( Hear, bear,)—and he did not think that any
'.tilt of the public. In the work to which refeience bad offence ought to be taken at such a general observation.
eei made, Sir John Barrow did not come forward it, the Captain PE CHE L L bad no hesitation whatever in sa-
aracter of Secretary of the Admiralty, but having a work tisfying the Hon. and Gallant Officer. Ho was not
the press, he considered it a prober opportunity for aware that he had incurred the displeasure cf the H. n
and Gallant Officer, and he had not for an instant the
'og certain statements which It Id been circulated
out the country in various ways, and which were slightest idea of making any reflection on him—especially
,red to affect the honour of the Navy. Sir John when the Gallant Officer was actually advocating the
ie• had not attacked the professional character of any very cause he had at beam-4 Hear, hear.)
; but when charges were brought forward undsr the Mr. HUME protested against any further pension's
eteme of a Flag Officer, who he deuhted not was a iiiehly being granted, although he concurred with the Hon. and
speetable man, and that when another officer, giving his Gallant Admiral, Sir E. Codrington, that a great many
e.rae, but appearing in the character of a pamphleteer, persons received pensions disproportioned to their services,
.
attacked the Navy, Sir John Barrow, had answered these while there were many in the Army and Navy who did
~ttacks, as belied the power to do from his experience and not receive adequate remuneration. In the returns of the
from official documents, and as he ( Sir G. Staunton) be- last year it would be found that upwards of 11,000.000/.
lievcd, in a most satisfactory answer. The unanswerable was paid for the services, effective and non-effective, of
speech of the Secretary of the Admiralty last night was these in the Army and Navy. 7,158 000 h was pa'd for the
a complete confirmation of Sir John Barrow's statements. whole efficient service of the Army and Navy, while
Captain PE CH EL L did not rise to discuss the ques- 4,114,000/. was paid for pensions. That was a singular
tion pending between Sir John Barrow and the Admiralty fact.— (Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") He considered
it was a very pretty quarrel as it stood. He beged that the whole question of pensions required i evi-
to express his satisfaction at the able and efficient state- sion. There were too many who received pensions
meat of the Hen. Secretary of the Admiralty on the pre- and did not deserve them. The House of Commons last ,
6 i
vi,-us night, but he must say that he heard with very great night was in a very extraordinary state. Talk of Tory
pain the statement of the Noble Lord below him, coming houses—talk of unreformed houses--he had never wit-
as it did from such high authority, that the Duke of Wel- nested such symptoms of extravagance in all his life as
lington thought the inquiries of the Commission ought not were manifested last night.—( Great laughter.) Ever
to be further extended. He regretted it the more because since he had been in the House, it had been his good for-
the Navy had expressed much satisfaction and confidence tune or rather his bad fortune to attack the public depart-
hi the Noble Duke, and had looked up to him for a retirees ments for having the estimates too large, but last night the
cf its grievances. He hoped the Noble Lord, the Secre- party was put on his defence because the estimates were
tare for the Home Department, would take into considers- not higher. That was quite a novelty.—(Laughter.)
tics the statements made by the Hon. and Gallant Admiral He bad never expected to hear it said, "we have never
(meals iegton) beside him, and although the powers of the made any reduction, we have gone on increasing year after
preeeit Commission might not be enlarged, he hoped the ) ear," and the House, will it be believed, was in raptures
ilau:e would feel itself called upon to interfere on be- with that statement.—(Laughter.) After that he would
half of that deserving and suffering class of men. say no more.—( Renewed laughter.)
The Gallant Admiral had gone into details which the Sir E. CODRINGTON rose to make a few observa-
House had listened to with great patience. He feared they tions In reply. He only asked for pensions for those who
would not bear with him so patiently; but he would not bad been severely wounded, and who were entitled to'them
detain there longer than he could help. The Gallant for their services. A complaint had been made that be
A.l:niral might Nava taken a wider field. He (Captain had not brought this subject on when the Estimates were
Pechcll) complained that the officers of the Navy were moved, but he begged leave to say he would grasp every
net ptced in the situation which they ought to occupy in opportunity for advocating the cause of the Navy—it was
many instances. The Peerage was not open to naval a duty he had prescribed to himself, and he was deter-
officers. It was true the Gallant Admiral had mentioned mined to pursue it. He felt justified in having called the
the names of Duncan, and some few others; but these Gal- attention of the House to the subject on the present occa-
lairt Officers had not attained to those high honours which sion. Although be never wished to go into battle again,
the country would haVe liked to have seen showered yet he would be glacito do so if he could take all the Mi-
en them. Then, with regard to the last appointments in aisters with him, and should also like to have the Hon.
the Order of the Bathe only four naval officers had been Member for Kilkenny.-(Laughter). They would then,
included in the list ; and when compared with the number perhaps, alter their tone, and would say that seamen were
of officers in that list in the East India Company's service, very ill paide.--(Hear, hear.) It was all very well for men
every 0.-m must be struck with the disparity. The appoint- to sitein that House, and to say that pensions ought not to
ments cf Governors of Colonies were not so open to naval of- be granted. He agreed that pensions ought not to be
fleas as they ought to be ; neither were the Consuls to foreign given to men who had large stipends, but pensions ought
parts. He would put it to the House whether it would to be given to those who fought for their country, and woos
not be advisable that the Consuls at Calais, Bouloeno, deserved them. With regard to the two publications tha
Bordeaux, and other sea-ports should be Naval Officers had been alluded to, it ought to be recollected that Capt'
whose half-pay might merge in their appointments ? It Berkeley's pamphlet was consequent upon Sir John Bar"
4551 only fair that the Admiralty should receive the ap- row's. He thought Capt. Berkeley was perfectly justified
Pnistment of one Page to her Majesty who might receive in having put forth those opinions. Captain Berkeley was
a commission in the Navy. At present all these com- an excellent Officer, and made an excellent member of the
missions were given into the Army; be asked this as an Admiralty, and he was sorry that the Admiralty bad been
act of justice to the Navy. With respect to pensions, he deprived of his services.—(" Hear, hear, from Mr. C.
heped that the Government would give their attention to Wood.)
the statements of the Gallant Admiral on that subject. The motion was negatived without a division.
If he asked if the officers of the Army were deprived of TURNPIKE TRUSTS.
their half-pay on their appointment to any office, he would Mr. MACKINNON would detain the House but
be told that they had no official dispensing order enabling a very short time in bringing forward the motion of
them to receive it. He should like to know why the Navy which he had given notice. He wished this measure
was not entitled to a similar advantage? Captain Napier, bad been taken up by the Government, or by the
who had been recently appointed to a ship, had Honourable Member for Hants ( Mr. S. Lefevre).
been deprived of the pension which had been granted In 1836, in a Committee, of which he had the honour
to hint for his services on his receiving that of being Chairman, and after investigating the matter as
ai)pointment ; he mentioned this case because far as possible, they felt compelled to come to the same
it was one which had caused great dissatisfaction amongst determination as the Committee of the House of Lords.
naval officers. The Gallant Admiral had quoted returns His object was to obtain a Select Committee for the pur-
which showed the necessity of ships being sent to sea in a pose of taking into consideration the best means, in the first
proper manner ;it was impossible to give the question the place, of consolidating the various Turnpike Trusts through-
go-by ;it had been made too much a party question. He out Great Britain, which had been recommended by Corn-
eas convinced that the present Board of Admiralty had mittees of both Houses. His next object was to as-
not sent ships to sea in a worse condition than they had certain in what manner the 8,000,0001. of debt now
formerly been sent. Their predecessors, during the time owing by those Trusts could be liquidated. It was
of the American war, had been quite as blameable on this perfectly clear that the establishment of railroads
subject as they had been. The Captains of the Mace- throughout the country would not only increase
dvitan and the Guerriere had been sacrificed by being sent that debt, but render the security- on different lines of road per-
to o
sea with inefficient crews ; the ships were good enough, fectly nugatory. The money had been advanced, not by wealthy
but hey were undermanned. He was sorry to have to parties, not even by the middle classes, but by persons whose
differ with the Hon. Secretary of the Admiralty, but he all had been advanced for the security of the tolls, which now,
could
not agree with him when in justifying the conduct of by the establishment of railroads by this House, had been ut-
the Admiralty, in not increasing the complements of the terly done away -ith. The evidence taken in 1836 went to
ships, he had stated that the present complements were show that in all the lines of road which had run parallel with the
equal to what they were in time of war, because in war time railroad, the tolls were lessened in a most unparalleled degree.
ships were expected to detach portions of their crews in wiz Railroads were essentially a monopoly—they must become the
VCF is. He would observe that this necessity existed as imuche ' both goods and passengers along the whole line on
carriers of
1F .n the time of war. With regard to ships on the African which they
iwehenht,:i.nd it was essentially necessary that the Le-
-3°
ieoxni sptreenrceentot
tthheo
evilsse
.atior, if they took a slaver or a piratical vessel, they were §islsaotmuree h
attendantthere-
obliged to accompany their prize into port, in consequence ony.
He
eswystem of legislation
imputed no blame to her Majesty's Ministers, nor to
of not having a sufficient crew to detach a sufficient number any one—the Legislature was in fault, and it was the duty of
to take care of the prize; and thus the cruising ground was the Legislature, therefore, to provide that some code should be
left open to slave shipping. He bad himself, when in the established far future railroads. He did not find fault with
West Indies, the command of what was commonly called a railroads. On the contrary, he was a great friend to them,
a
jack-ass frigate--one of those ships that could neither fight and had always supported them in that House, but at the same
time, while they conferred a lasting, benefit upon that country,
nor run ; however, after a considerable trouble and anxiety, coairtehoautg.ht to be taken
which
individuals should not be deprived
he had managed to get alongside a piratical vessel which,
although sire carried only ten guns, had actually more men viz.,public'ecurtiolyisupo,%wehi h they b had advanced their money,
yaawdetTiepu lac itrortye.tthe time the
than the vessel which he commanded. There had been money was adv.anced,had been done away
consequently considerable difficulty experienced in keeping with by the Acts of the Legislature. securityt
was fir her Majesty's
the pirates in order, and he had been obliged to accompany Government to do as they thought fit on this subject ; all that
the vessel himself in consequence of not having a sufficient he (Mr. Mackinnon) was anxious for was that justice should be
crew to place on board her. He did not blame the present done. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for a Select
Admiralty for this, but the system ; he must do honour to Committee to examine into the subject.
the Gallant Officer for his expressions and exertions on this Mr. CRAWLEY seconded the motion.
subject ; and he fully agreed with the Gallant Ad- Mr. F. MAULE said he thought the enly ground which the
Honourable Member had made out for a Committee, was to in-
miral as to the necessity of sending ships to sea in a
quire into the effect of railroads in deteriorating the securities
state of efficiency ; and he did hope that the House
on public roads. With respect to consolidation there had been
would support the Admiralty in their endeavours to in both Houses committees id nauseant. Twice had the Go-
remedy the defects which existed on this subject. The vernment brought forward measures for consolidation, and
Gallant Admiral had alluded to the case of the midship- offered to advance the requisite securities; but the influence of
men : they were a class of officers whom be had taken ran- those interested in the present system had prevailed with Mem-
der his particular care. The midshipmen received 13. Bd. bens opposite to defeat those propositions. At the existing
a day, or 35/. ss. Bd. a year. He found that there were period no Government could be expected to advance the public
373 midshipmen employed, and that the pay of, all the funds on securities so much deteriorated.—(Hear.) If the
midshipmen amounted to 2001. less than the pay of the Honourable Member would alter his motion, and confine it to
Lords of the Admiralty. The case of the Midshipmen was the effect of railroads on the public roads, he (Mr. F. Maule)
would agree to it.
peculiarly hard with respect to pension. The Gallant
Admiral had drawn the attention of the House to the case
of a mids 11slir. AGIt.GCKINNON said he would agree to that alteration.
R STRICKLAND said the Honourable
hipman who, in copse of an
,accident on Memrber had clearly enoughear exposed the evil ; but he had
board a steam vessel last his leg, and had been, in conse- not founds remedy.—( Arasil,rooatEdise dtehteerioraton of the
H e resultsar )Forof thein
gum-me allowed a pension of 601. a year; but when this securities on the public roads.)b
officer had received an appointment to a guard sh p, this railroads were not at present clearly known.—(
prnsion had been stopped. The Gallant Admiral had, stance, in the case of the post-horse duty, which it was ex--
consequently recommended him to promotion, and had, in petted would have been quite annihilated by the railroads, the
consequence, remedied the injustice.—( Hear, hear.) He speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the other night,
heeed that the officers of the Commission would see had shown that this expectation was mistaken. And from the
that the House was determined to do something to remedy proposition of the Secretary for Ireland, as to Irish railways, it
the ge ievances complained of. He believed that the Board was doubtful what measures were to be taken by Government
of Admiralty knew that the country bad determined that in respect to railways in general.
the ships should be sufficiently manned—the grievances of Mr. WARBURTON thought the Committee, as now pro-
the Navy remedied. He hoped some good would arise Posed, would be premature, as it would have, if appointed, not
from the discussion, and that the Gallant Admiral would to inquire into facts which had taken place, but to exercise the
live to be rewarded for his exertions on this subject. gift of prophecy.
here was but one great line of railroad yet completed, viz.,
Captain GORDON said that he should be prepared to that from London to Liverpool, and surely it would be better
to give an opinion on many points which had been brought to wait five or six years to ascertain what would be the result
forward
when
the Navy Estimates were under the consi. of the Railways at present in progress of formation before any
deration of the House, and he should therefore reserve his step was taken.
opinion until that time, but the Gallant Admiral had so Mr. MACKINNON replied. He did not think the Hon.
mixed up this question that he really did not know how it Member, the Under Secretary for the Home Department, had
,'"t Paasible to give a distinct vote on the subject, because stated the case fairly. If the' House adopted the suggestion of
the Hon. Member for Bridport, they utlet 't til much
"Brat Proposed a resolution stating such and such to be more mischief had been done, which iwt. was thewat objectun of the
lie Opinion of the House and then he attached to it an
thlress to the Crown. Committee he proposed to appoint to avert. If the House
vard a proposition simply for Gallant Admiral brought granted that Committee, clauses might be introduced in all
would be a subject very fittthe revision of pensions, future Railway Bills to prevent the mischief which was likely
ere into, considering tla ding for the Commission to take place. He would withdraw the motion in conformity
'lowed to the Army, ;Urines,
derma pensions which with the suggestion of the Hon. Member opposite.—The m-
end Navy. With thin was then withdrawn.