The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JULY 13, 1839.

tent with the rights of propriety in obedience to the laws.
There was some inconsistency in opposing the prayer of
the petition, when it was recollected whet laneusge
they occasionally held to each other in that House. 'They
were in the constant practice of bandying reproaches one
with another about their neglect of the interests of the
people, and yet when the people stepped in es a third party,
with intelligence dawning upon them as to the manner in
which their proceedings were conducted, it could not be
considered extraordinary that they should ask, that the
Commons of England should be differently coeetituted.—
( Hear, hear.) If he had never heard or read any 'thing of
the proceedings of that House save what had occurred
during the present Session, he could not help saying that
the prayer of the petition was a most reasonable one. If
any Hon. Member brought forward a question of national
interest, he was actually obliged to apologize for
it.—( Hear, hear.) He confessed he was astonished at the
speech of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury. He could
not have made out a stronger case if he had been a warm
advocate of the Charter.—( Hear, hear.) He had never
heard greater abuse of the House for its neglect of duty.
He told them that the people were ignorant, and they
had not educated them—that they were overhurthened
with taxes and that House had given them no relief. .The
Hon. Member had certainly given a true picture of the-
House, for nothing was so common as to hear it asserted
there that they did not possess the confidence of the coun-
try.---( Hear, beer ) On these grounds he should support
the motion of the Hon. Member for Birmingham.
Mr. SL ANE Y explained.
Mr. OSWALD could not consent to going into Com-
mittee on the petition, because lie thought its deliberations
would end in throwing out the first and leading principle of
the petition, which was Universal Suffrage. They
would, therefore, be only raising hopes and expectations
which must end in disappointment. He did not pretend
to say now the elective franchise might not be extended in
time, but this he would say, that an overwhelming ma-
jority of the country were opposed to Universal Suffrage,
and he thought he should be acting exceedingly wrong if he
voted for going into Committee when that question was to
be discussed, as he believed it would only lead to deception.
_( Hear, and cheers )
Mr. WARBURTON thought it would not be pm-
tising any deception to vote for going into the Committee,
because going into Committee did not pledge them to the
principles of the petition. lie was not a Universal Suf-
frage or an Annual Parliament man, but he might agree
to a proposition now. for Triennial Parliaments. Why
then refuse to go into Committee because the principle
could not be carried out to the fullest extent. If he
thought that giving a more extensive representation to the
people would be the means of grappling with the national
debt, as it had been`termed, he certainly would not vote
for it, but be did not believe that such would be the result.
—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WA KLEY wished to know whether the Hon.
Member for Glasgow was opposed to the whole of the
six propositions of the National Petition ? He admired his
candour, but did the Hon. Member mean to say that
because he could not get the whole of the six propositions,
be should objeet to going into Committee in order to get
one ? Was that the line of conduct which the Hon. Member
thought was most-likely to obtain the confidence and approval
of his constituents?( Hear, bear.) The Hon. Member,
however, had made the declaration, and must abide by it.
The Noble Lord (J. Russell) had not certainly treated
the question with any degree cf levity or unkindness, but
there was one remark which he regretted to have heard
from the Noble Lord, and that was with reference to the
wages of the labouring classes. The Noble Lord had said •
he did not believe they were in such distress as had been
represented, teed had referred to the SaVings Wank re-
turr,s of an agricultural and commercial county, one of
which was Devonshire. He thought the Noble Lord was
one of the last persons who ought to make any allusions to
that county.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the Noble Lord
had got enough of it.—( Laughter.) He had alluded to
the increase of deposits in the Savings Banks of Exeter,
but it appeared to him (Mr. W.) impossible that these
deposits could have been paid by the labouring classes.
He was inclined to think that there were other parties
who were lending themselves to a fraud,—( Hear, hear.)
Did the Noble Lord know what the sages of the labour-
ing classes in Devonshire Were at that moment, or
want they had been during the last five or six years?
From six to seven shillings a week in a neighbourhood
with which he was well acquainted (Axminster), and was
it possible to suppose that men with wives and families
could, out of 7s. a week, make deposits in the Savings
Banks?_( Hear, hear.) The thing was utterly absurd
and preposterous. In the neighbourhood of the metro-
polis the condition of the agi icultural labourers was
equally wretched. He had a short time since been speak-
hig to a farmer who had been in business 30 years, and he
told him that during the whole of that time he had never
known them to be in such a state of destitution and com-
plete misery and poverty as at the present moment. He
(Mr. Wakley) had seen these labourers lying about in
barns, and sheds, and outhouses.__( An Hon. Member—
"'l hey were harvest men.")—He admitted that, but why
should not these poor men have the';rneaus of paying frr a
bed ?—( Hear, hear.) Was that the condition to which
they wished to see their labourers reduced ? Was it to
that their legislation tended ?—( Hear, and cheers.) Were
these men, who were sweating and toiling under a burning
sun all day, to be compelled to take refuge in barns and
sheds at night ? He wished it to go from the House
to the labouring classes, that they were deceiving
themselves if they expected any redress from that House.
He was not one of those who would recommend the people
to try and obtain the victory by the shedding of human
blood, but he would tell them not to waste time by pre-
senting petitions to that House in future, because they
would never lend a wilting ear to them. They would
not be aliewed even to discuss the prayer upon presenting
them. Why, if he (Mr. W.) had twenty petitions to
present, lie dare not utter a word in support of them.
He • and every other Hon. Member who advocated the
cause of the people, and who were anxious to put forward
their grievances, were gagged by the forms of the House.
He would tell the people then to form associations—to
discuss their grievances—to make known their wants—to
make friends and not enemies of their neighbours—to win
the confidence and good will of the middle classes—and
join with them in such a demand as would produce an
effect upon that Assembly—but at present they might as
well petition the rock of Gibraltar as that House.—
( Hear, and a laugh.) It was a tnockery—a delusion,
which he for one never would encourage. He wished to
show the House what the state of the working classes was,
and cordially supported the motion.—(Heara hear.)
Mr. F. MAULE had not intended to address the
House, but after what bad fallen from the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, he felt it necessary to say a fe..v words. He
had said that the lion. Member for Glasgow must take
the consequences of his speech, but he thought the Hon.
Member ter Glasgow was perfectly justified in his state-
ment. His (Mr. P. Mettle's) opinion was that a vast ma-
jority of the people of Scotland were entirely opposed to
what was called the Charter.—(Hear, hear.) When he
referred to the county of Perth, he found that the delegate
who was elected to represent that county in the National
Convention had withdrawn himself from that Association,
the moment he perceived the precipice to whiich they were
hurrying their followers, and was no longer connected with
it. That individual had some respect for The rights of
property, and the comforts and happiness or the people.
The Hon. Member for Finsbury said the prayer of the
petition ought to be granted, because the wages of the
people were unable to maintain them. He regretted to
find that such was the case, but in the country to which
he (Mr. F. Maule) belonged the wages of the agricultural
labourers were such as to enable them to maintain their fa-
milies in comfort ; and he only wished they had Savings
Banks established there as in England. Wide respect to
the statement of the Hon. Member, that these deposits
were nut made by the labouring classes, theec must be
some mistake, for they were advised by their leaders to
withdraw their deposits, which it was stated would amount
to a considerable surn.—( Hear, hear.) He woo:id oppose
the motion, because he believed the great bulk of the peo-
ple of that country were opposed to these principles.
Sir T. D. ACL AND regretted to say that the wages
of the agricultural labourers were extremely low, but it
was necessary to explain one or two points. Now in many
districts it was the custom to give the men beer with their
wages, and the seven shillings a week were thus _increased
to eight shillings. Again there was generally a small
cottage provided at a low rent, or no rent at all, an d some-
times fuel ; and when all these matters were tal:en into
account, although the wages were nominally but seven or
eight shillings a week (which was nearer the rate in his
neighbourlmod) the real amount paid was not moth more.
Sir JOHN YARDE BULLER confirmed title state-
ments of the last speaker. He did not know what course
was pursued in that part of the county of Devonshire to
which the Honourable Member for Finsbury heed re-
ferred, but in his (Sir John Buller's) peel, la-
bourers received 10s. a week, gardeners 125., and
those who worked under masons and carpenters -15.. a
week. There was also a strong desire on the part: of the
gent ry and yeomanry, a strong desire to place the labourer
in the best situation they could. He could also bear his tes-
timony to what had been asserted by the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Home Department relative to the in-
creased deposits in the Savings Bank at Exeter.—( Hear.)
Mr. S CHO L E FIE LD rose amid cries of " Question,
question," " Divide' divide." He thought there ought to
be a property tax. The Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Home Department had charged. the Reformers with hav-
ing m,ede up their minds for a division of property. That
lie denied. They wished for no man's property; and if the
House would only act honestly, they would lime of no fur-
ther Chartist meetings. What they protested against was
the aristocracy petting their hands into pockets that did
not belong to them. They complained that taxation
was not equal ; they said that that law which
compelled a poor man to pay as much for his
pipe of tobacco
paid for his segar ;
which compelled a
as
poor a richman mtopaayn• as much for the postage
of his letter as the rich man ; and which in fact compelled
him who earned only eight shillings a week to pay as much
for every article he required for his use as the man who
had le,ooo/. cr 20,000/. a year was unjust. The Chwtists
wished for nothing but justice—they only des ired that they
should not pay
more than a fair share of taxa than. Unless
the House acceded to the inquiry now asked for they would
not do justice to the petition. —( Hear, hear.)
Mr. ATTWOOD replied amid much confusion and
cries of Divide !" It was Perfectly ridi,;ulons to tell him
that the amount of deposits in the Saeinge Banks was any
proof of the improved condition of the w orking classess.
It was known that the greater portion of foe money in the
Saving Banks wee placed there by rich mum because they
got more interest for it by that means than they could in
any other way. Of the 22,400,000/. that were in the
Saving Banks, he would venture to say not ‘2,000,000/. be-
longed to the working classes. He called upon the Con.
servatives to go into
.Committee with him on this subject,
for the purrs° of tryth
,he how far they could reilieve the dis-
tresses compiain2,
Icif by the petitioners.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared__
For going into Committee

Against it ....... : ....... .... ............. 235
Majority against going into Committee-189

PENNY POSTAGE.
Mr. MARK PHIL LIPS presented petitions from
Manchester, nun-,ercusly signed, in falmur of a uniform
rate of penny postago.