The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-09 00:00:00

:lie most effeetive, and, in his opinion, justifiable organiz,r
tioh, rosisted ;he collect or tithes—it must be mai"'
nst, that nivil the tithe question was adjusted, it was
iro-
issil.de that any other rate should be imposed en t.O
eon e try ;yith the sm a! 'est el1.1:1('0 SUCVOsifill
Ile wi,hed that Lie Governin!mt would direct 49
to taus,..kitijPet. He did not think that the peuPle
I,.e!aod woulif be satisfied ii ita the question of tithes was
shitted. He would, as he s mid beire, irtt ne
question, but lie should certainly like to kno
whit courgt
Government, moant to adopt..
Mr. RICIIARDS did not think that any Bi l could be
introduced more likely to tranquillise Ireland than tine In''
Mill. a provision for the iloqitute poor of that tm:dile"-
( Hear ) The Honourable and Learned Aleidu,T for
Tipperary had endeavoured in the first instance to frighten
the House against introducing any Poor-laws into Ireland
and as he had failed in th's, he now wished to excite fears
by stating that he should propose that there should he 4
system of out-door relief, which in the first instance mad
occasion great confusion.
Mr. SHAW was as anxious as the Hon. Member for
Tipperary for a settlement of the tithe question, but he did
not agree with him as to the mode in which this should be
effected. The Hon. Member said that it would be fair
years next November since tithes bad been collected in Ire-
land. This, however, was a fallacy ; for tithes had been
tolerably well paid in Ireland, at least in three-fourths of
the country, during the last year ; and any difficulty i 4
their collection was only experienced in one-fourth. lie
would venture to assert, that tithes were as well raid as any
other duty or tax. With respect to this Bill, he thought
that a great fault of it was, that it went much farther than
the Noble Lord had made provision for. He also thought-
that the Noble Lord had greatly miscalculated the nut"'
her of applicants for admission into the workhouses; they
would certainly be much greater than he imagined It
-
would have been much better in the first instance if they
had confined relief in the workhouses for the weak, the
sick, anti the infirm. He could not help feeling, howeve,r'
that the whole measure was a fearful experiment on tne
property of Ireland as well as the habits of the people.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD was satisfied that the
principle of relief in workhouses never could be acted upon
in Ireland. He differed from the Hon. and Learned Mem'
her for Tipperary as to the settlement of the Tithe ques"
Lion before the Poor-law Bill ;he thought that the latter
should be delayed on no account.
Mr. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCH thought that
this
question was of vital importance, and should be settled at
once.

Lord J RUSSELL addressed the House to the fel'
lowing effect : I do not think it necessary to enter upon the
zeneral argument as to the Poor-law measure, on which I he.
fore addressed the House, both on the introduction and on
the second reading of the Bill, but I feel bound to telte
some notice of the question put to me by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Tipperary. Indeed, I suppose that
it is the wish of the House that I should state the course
that the Government intends to pursue as regards this sub'
ject, and I must say that it is a matter of considerable &Ft'
culty to state what course should be taken in certain cootie'
gencies, being observations, or matter in the shape of obse"
vations, as to the course taken by the party opposed to Ine
as regards one of these Bills. It must be recollected that
we introduced three separate Bills with respect to Ireland;
namely, the Municipal Corporation Bill, the Tithes Bill, and
the Poor-law Bill ; these were three separate. measure,
but tending, as we believe, to the tranquillity, the improve'
ment, and the well-being of Ireland, and also to the more fire'
establishment of the union between the two countries. On the
ether side of the*House it has been held that these incision's
were not to be taken as separate measures, but as filer
sures connected together, and that one should not beindgetli
of without the consideration of the other. Denying, as
do, the justice of this opinion, still I have to say that "°
have now brought forward, or at least stated the nature sae
what we proposed to do with respect to each of these men
sures. We have sent up to the other House of Parliament
a Bill respecting Municipal Corporations in Ireland. W. t.e
now propose to go into Committee on the Poor-law Bill
and my Noble Friend stated with great clearness the p°'
visions of a Bill which he proposes to introduce respect 4
tithes ; therefore, the whole of our plans on these subjects
are before the House. Knowing, then, that the plans re'
posed on the part of the Government are before the House,
we are of opinion that these measures are best calculate('
for the attainment of the objects meant to be obtained. Bet
I understood the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in the,
course of the debate at the close of the discussion of one of
those Bills in this House, namely, on the debate nn Muni'
cipal Corporations—I understood him to state, that al:
though he was not decidedly opposed to a measure on this
subject, yet that that before the House exceeded in matte:
as it was framed such a measure as he could approve of, and
although he did not deny that a prima facie case had been
made out for the establishment of Corporations in Ireland,
he did not state the nature of the amendments which he
would have wished to have introduced, nor the natured the
Bill which he would support. He, however, opposed the
further progress of the measure because the other measures
as to tithes and poor•laws were not before the House. 1
have stated that I regarded these Bills as separate
measures, but which he stated be wished to regard as I
whole. Thus I understood the statement of the Hon'
Gentleman, and he is present to correct me if I am to; , •
correct. But I must say what has actually happen?' -
since is an occurrence wholly unprecedented in the his-
tory of Parliament--(Loud cheers)—but at the mole
time one to which it is difficult to affix any definite
meaning.—(Loud cries of' " Hear, hear.") I have the
interpretation of this part of the Constitution from the pray'
tice and from the professions of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
and I do not think that I differ much from him in stating
that when measures have been passed repeatedly by •
considerable majorities of that House, they must at the
end meet with the concurrence of the other House of Podia'
went. Undoubtedly lam not about to enter into a length'
ened examination of the opinion to which I have referred
but I must observe that it seems that so far it met with the
concurrence of the other House that the Bill which Wes
sent up to them for giving Municipal Corporations to Ireland
was read a second time in the other House, and I did
not hear, and, indeed, the contrary weuld appear to be
the case, that no entice was given similar to that prO'
posed and carried last year with respect to this Bill In,
the other House of Parliament, and which was proposed
last year, and also this year, to this House of Pasha'
ment, but which was on both occasions negatived'
namely, that instead of provision being made for the refer'
mation and reconstruction of the Municipal Corporation!
in Ireland, that provision should be made for their total
abolition. Judging, therefore, wholly from this fact, that
the other House was disposed to assent that which woe
practice in accordance with the best times of the Constipe
tion, namely, finding that the settled and deliberate opinion
of the representatives of the people was in favour of the
establishment of popular and local Governments in Ireland'
he supposed that the House of Lords was prepared to c(l°'
sides the Bill on the subject which had been sent to thee'
At the time when the Bill was read a second time, this aP'
peered to be the course that would be taken, above ail,
when no intimation was given of such an instruction as.
have mentioned being proposed to the Committee, and in'
deed without notice of any kind ; and the motion herr,„.
made in such manner as precluded many of those who in-
tended to support the Bill from hav'ng their names re:
corded against the motion made, and successfully made, to
postpone the Bill to the 9th of June. Therefore, as I
before, putting aside the original proposition, that the Bills.
should be considered separately, the House of Lords
adopted the amendment that was proposed, that the Bills
should be considered together ; and I must say, in all rairi;
ness, and in hope of coming to an adjustment, that,
,a
would have been more right to have stated and propound":
in a formal shape the amendments which were to be made;
o
—(Cheers)—and then, if they had thought proper, ti`e
might adjourn for a week, fortnight or longer tV
further consideration of the subject,-(Heir, hear.) These_
amendments thus being in our power, we should have bee:
able to form some judgment,sorne definite opinion, as to
nature of the measure to which that House appeared "cso
ling to assent ; and also to form a judgment on the success
of the measures which we are now pressing forward.
I must also add, that the course which has been taken 110,,
not hitherto been a course which has been taken up
cerely with a view to come to an adjustment of this. tiff,.
tion. •It is a course which must very much embarrass his -ia
jestv's Government, and threw obstacles in the way whiaLiiii
greatly interfere with us while we have to deal with the
before the House. Under these circumstances it is very_o_rit
cult to state what course it is proper to pursue, lerh
might be said, and suspicious minds might adopt suedse
an opinion, that those who, without any notice, PrO(,),inst
this course, and who have on all occasions spoken ogl•
the popular principles contained in the Bill, and who
eo;er
appear as hostile to that popular principle as they
soh
were—it might he said that their object was to act in the
a way as t, enable them to force the Bills on the °
subjects witVi are consonant to their feelings, while theyo, in
would keep up the form and substance of Corporatte
Ireland, in which would be effee:ually shut out the poPue
principle, for certain of these Corporations would bePcii_
,
served, as they now are, exclusive bodies.—(Cheers.)sti
I hope, is not the interpretation to be put on this Porur.
ing ; ani I should be very sassy to take any hasty or Prey
ture steps, founded on conclusions that it was not inter
by the other House to consent to the foundation 0110.--•
institutions in Ireland for the management of local affairs
(Hear,) But another course which he might be told
_old
be taken by the other House was this, that they
say, " We will take out of the Tithe Bill all that. In ilia
pleasing to us, and we will put into the Corporation serf
Lona 'know
something that will be displeasing to you."—(
and laughter.) As to what this something may be la or
not—as to whether it is a simple alteration of. the
Pr'
the jaciple
whether it will entirely militate against the vital