The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-19 00:00:00

SPITHEAD FORTS.

Sir M. PETO a,ked the First Lord of the Treasury when
he proposed to bring in a bill on the subject of a loan for
fortifications, and whether he proposed to re-commence the
suspended works of the Spithead forts?

Lord PANERSTON hoped shortly to introduce a bill
on the subject. He would then enter into an explanation.

THE SEVERN DEFENCES.

:n reply to Sir W. MILES,

Lord PALME RSTON said that the Government had
bought the land, and meant to erect a battery upon it, but
no Tote would be asked for the current year.

THE INDIAN FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

:n reply to Mr. A. MILLS,

Sir C. WOOD said that he was quite ready to make his
statement ; tut be feared the papers presented had not yet
been sufficiently long on the table of the house. Dae notice,
however, would be given.
COURT-MARTIAL ON PAYMASTER SMALES.
In reply to Mr. CONINGHAIII,
The Marquis of HARTINUTON said he had no objec-
tion to lay the report and the reply of the Colonel of the
6th Drag• ons on the table.
THE RATE IN AID.

In reply to Lord G. CAVENDISH,
Mr. VILLIERS said that the act did not expire until
the Ist of September.
INDIAN REGIMENTS.

In reply to Captain JERVIS,
Sir C. WOOD said that officers retiring under the Indian
regulations would attain the step adverted to. The officers
referred to in the second question, mainly consisted of those
belonging to disbanded regiments. The regulations re•
furred to in the third question had been agreed to three
months ago.

SALT (FRANCE).
In reply to Mr. TOLLEMACHE,
Mr. LAYARD said that the French had appointed a

commission on the subject, which had concluded its labours,
but the report had not yet come into the hands of the Go-

vemment,

THE LISBURN ELECTION.-PROPOSED PRO-

SECUTION.
Mr. COLLINS gave notice that to-morrow, in going

into committee of supply, he should move a resolution on

he bubject of prosecuting persons who had been gaiety of

bribery at the last election.
PUBLIC WORKS (MANUFACTURING DIS-

TRICTb) BILL.
Mr. VILLIERS, in moving the second reading of this

bill, said it was the natural result of the inquiry announced
by the Government several weeks ago, for the purpose of
ascertaining whether the circumstances of certain towns
and populous places in the counties of Lancashire and
Cheshire were not such as to offer resources for the employ-

ment of the unfortunate operatives who for so long a period
had been deprived of their ordinary occupation. That in-

quiry was prompted by an anxiety on the part of Govern-
ment, at the continued dependence of so large a proportion
of the working classes in a given spot upon charitable and
parochial relief. And though there was every reason for
feeling satisfied, and even grateful, that adequate means had
been found for the maintenance of so numerous a body of

working men, it was impossible at the same time not to be
alive to the consequences of such numbers for so long a
time deriving their maintenance from these resources. Bat
the bill was also introduced in presence of a slight prospect
of reviving trade, and of a manifestation of uneasiness on
the part of the operatives at their continued state of idleness.

The house would remember that there was a very general
feeling in the community that something should be done to

place these people in a healthier position; and for that rea-

son it was determined to direct a competent person to pro-

teed to those districts where it might be supposed indepen-
dent labour could be provided, to institute the necessary in-
quiries. There was no delay in the course to be pursued, for
within a few days of the discussion in that house the gentle-
man selected by his right hon. friend the Home Secretary,
namely, Mr. Rawlinson, proceeded to the spot, and in a very
short time they were able to lay his report upon the table of
the house, He believed that Mr. Rawlinson had been hap-

pily selected for the purpose, and, among other reasons, on
account of his being a native of one of the counties con-
cerned, and of his intimate knowledge of the districts.
Ha thought he might say that their mission was welcome,
and they were everywhere well received by the local autho-
rities. Every information was given, because thereby as-
sistance was afforded to the operatives. He only mentioned

that, as showing that every means had been adopted to ob-
tain information, which fact was important in reference to
the results. It happened that everything which was anti-

cipated proved to be correct. The towns were reported to
be in a state to afford great facilities for the employment of

unskilled labour in the construction of new works, without

suspending ordinary labour. The first report of Mr. Raw-
linson, the engineer, led to the conclusion that that was the
case, and from first to last he had adhered to his origin al

opinion, namely, that there were ample opportunities for
the construction of new works that had long been much
needed in those districts, and which would afford employ-
ment for all the unskilled operatives then out of work. (The
right hon. gentleman then quoted some extracts from Mr.
Rawlinson's report in confirmation of his statement.) Mr.
Rawlinson had reported that he had not only communicated
with the local authorities, but with the operatives them-
selves, who aesnred him that their only cause of regret was
that they were not employed the whole day upon the works.
Mr. Rawlinson went on to state that in his opinion
£1,500,000 might be well and profitably spent in public
works, such as sewers, recreation grounds, drainage, deepen-
ing, cleansing, improving, and embanking rivers, and other
similar undertakings. This, it should be borne in mind, was
not an engineer's report made for an ordinary professional
purpose, and therefore Mr. Rawlinson did not pretend to
say that those were works which unskilled operatives could
perform along. He then accordingly proceeded to show
different classes of works, and what portions of them could
be accomplished by unskilled hands. These consisted
chiefly of levelling waste lands, making suburban roads,
cleansing rivers, and some other works of that
kind. In calculating the application of this
£1,500,000, Mr. Rawlinson was necessarily obliged to
come to the conclusion that not more than £451,600 of it

could be profitably expended upon unskilled labour. After
stating that £690,000 of the amount would have to be ex-
pended in the purchase of materials, he alluded to the cir-
cumstance that, although the apparent relief to the local
rates was but £451,000, the actual relief was much greater,
because the bulk of the money paid to the skilled labourers
would no doubt be expended in the neighbourhood of the
works. In recommending that report to the earnest con-
sideration of the house, he thought it would not be inappro-
priate to call attention to the statement in that report as to
one of the districts referred to. He alluded to Haslingden,
as a fair sample of those numerous towns which had sprung
up in a short time, and possessed considerable population
without any local governing body. The population of
Haslingden was 10,000, but to this day the houses were
undrained, the roads nnrepaired, and the streets unpaved.
There was no system of sewerage, fevers prevailed to a great
extent, and the whole place was but a type of many others
of the kind in Lancashire. Altogether there was found
throughout those reports ample evidence of the positive
necessity for works of the character suggested, It was un-
fortunately the fact in all parts of the manufacturing dis-
tricts that when their prosperity was at its highest point,
the smallest attention was paid to domestic and sanitary im-
provements. Nevertheless he felt it his duty to state that,
however desirable those works might br, there were ob-
stacles to be overcome before they could be effected. Those
obstacles were partly financial, and partly legal. With

respect to the financial obstacles, it was not difficult to
imagine that many of those townships, being already in
debt, the ratepayers would naturally be reluctant to incur
charges not absolutely necessary ;so that, unless they could
contract loans on easy terms, there was little hopeof their
embarking in those public works. So far as hohad ascertained
they could not readily raise money upon the security they
had to offer at much less than 5 per cent. He thought it
not unreasonable that they should ask the assistance of the
State to raise the money at a more advantageous rate.
It would be no inconsiderable matter in raising those
large sums to enable them to make a difference of nearly
1 per cent., and, looking at the precedents upon which
the Loan Commissioners had formerly been empowered
to act, the Government felt disposed to make that con-
cession. A case had, they thought, been established, not-
withstanding attempts had been made to draw distinc-
tta between those instances and the present. It wart
quite clear that the Loan Commissioners had liberty to
guarantee money employed in that way, and he saw no
reason for giving one case precedence of another. The
last instance eccurred at the passing of the Corn-law Bill,
and was someagtiwhacturietumrattrik.able. In anticipation of possible
jantjltihr: dtoistphoesal of the Loan Commissioners;
to drain their tend. £2,000,000 were placed
to enable pro-
prietorst was supposed to be com-
pensationbtlhasen.stained by foreign. compe-
for the lohseapptoy
say, that no such loss had
and another
tion ; but he was
occurred, and the whole of
n amountmeost
ttaodtvantageously laid
atosixpence had
£2,000,000 afterwards, had bee
therefore,present
out in improvement of the land moat
been lost. If the government consented
advance
money when no evil actually existed, surely,atduveances of
necessity would be ample justification.
hoped the house would not object to the proposed
With regard to te legal aifficulties, they consisted chiefly
in deficient powers either to borrow money or to carry out
works. It was quite clear that some of the places had
already exhausted (or nearly) their borrowing powers; and
in others there were no powers at all. But to enable those
places to avail themselves of the Local Qovernment Act of

1853, they would have to comply with formalities which
would take about three months. At that late period ot the
session there was no chance of their being able to obtain
private borrowing Acts, and the proposition was that those
places shall have money advanced for the purpose of exe-
cuting those works, The bill before the house would, he
believed, meet the grievance complained of as far as was
possible. This bill would facilitate in all the distressed dis-
tricts the borrowing of money on the security of the rates,
even in those outlying places within the districts respecting
which a misapprehension appeared to prevail. Another ob-
jection raised to the bill was, that it would not accomplish
all that was desired, and a complaint had been made that
no opportunity was afforded to the proprietors of property
within the district of taking the benefit of those loans. It
was a very different thing to make inquiries into the policy
of lending public money to towns to be expended for sani-
tary purposes, from making an inquiry into the private
requirements of particular districts. It would not have been
seemly if commissioners had been sent to inquire into the
condition ot certain private property, and had specified
them in a report by name,
.and holding the owners up to
the publio as persons who had neglected their property—
and, furthermore, he was not aware that any claim for
assistance had been put forward by them. Tne bill now
proposed was not intended as a panacea for all the evils
that had arisen out of the present unfortunate state of
things, and did not strike at the root of that great calamity
that had befallen this country, but he believed its provi-
eions might be turned to good account, and it ought not to
be condemned because it did not accomplish all that was
desired. He was satisfied with the manner in which the
bill had been received in the cotton districts. It had been
there fully considered and the Central Relief Committee
had given it their most unqualified approbation. (Hear.)
That was an encouraging and satisfactory circumstance
and it was to be hoped that the working of the bill would
alleviate in some measure the misery that at present
existed, when it was considered that the 70,000 or 80,000
men that would be employed represented four times that
number in their families.

Mr. FERRAND complained that the right hon gen-
tletnan had not dealt fairly with him in saying that when
the bill was introduced he (Mr. Ferrand) should oppose
it. All he did was to object to the bill being brought in
at half-past two o'clock in the morning. He regretted
the bill did not go further than it proposed. At a meeting
held in Manchester on Monday last the most alarming
statements were made, and in confirmation of what he said
in that house in April last, viz., that the operatives were
weary of idleness, were degraded into paupers, and that they
saw no chance of escape from their miserable condition ex-
cept in emigration. His remarks on that occasion were
treated cavalierly by the right hon. gentleman, and he re-
torted on him now that his arguments in moving the second
reading of the bill were obsolete in reference to free trade.
After the statements that had been made in that house by
the right hon. gentleman with reference to Lancashire dis-
tress, the Government were bound to find employment in
England for the distressed operatives, or to supply them
with the means of emigrating. Mr. Rawlinson had reported
that a short Act extending the provisions of the Local Go-
vernment Act would give the means of employing all the
ablebodied operatives in Lancashire. He charged the Go-
vernment with having desired Mr. Baker, one of the factory
inspectors, to send in a report adverse to emigration; and
he complained that Mr. Farnall's report had only been
placed on the table of the house that morning—a time much
too short to enable them to become thoroughly acquainted
with recent facts in connection with this momentous ques
tion. At the Manchester meeting referred to, the speakers
appeared to apprehend as bad a state of things in the Lan-
cashire cotton districts this winter as it was last—that they
would have to provide for at least 400,000 persons. He
should like to know what snm of money would be asked
for during the session, because, so far from a million and
a half being sufficient, he was informed twice that sum
' would be requisite; and he further wished the right hon.
gentleman to state what was to be done with the 300,000
persons who would get no relief from the public works.
If all those persons were to be kept in idleness, it would re-
quire four millions for their sustenance for the next year.
Distress prevailed in Ireland, Scotland, and other parts of
England, and he thought public money could be better ap-
plied than in buying rotten buildings at South Kensington
(Hear.) The Government had broken their promise to find
employment for the operatives if they continued peaceable
and well conducted. He doubted if the proposed public
works, such as making drains, were suitable employment
for factory operatives, who were accustomed to work under
cover in a high temperature. Out of door work, in incle-
ment weather, would carry them off by thousands. He sup-
ported a scheme of Government emigration, and called upon
her Majesty's Ministers to send out a large number of the
unmarried female operatives to our prosperous colonies.
That would be an act of justice to them, as the bill was to
the manufacturers themselves. He gave the bill his sup-
port, and should leave any alteration in its details to those
more immediately connected with the manufacturing dis-
tricts.

Mr. HIBBERT supported the bill, as being one in the
right direction. He approved of changing the support from
charity to a reward for labour. He referred to certain mis
statements that had been put forth in the Times, and said
that on the 30th of May neaily 300,000 persons received re-
lief, showing that great distress still prevailed in the cotton
districts, though there was an improvement from last Dec.
If the operatives were unfit for out-door employment in this
country, they had better not emigrate. The bill was not
without precedent, but he confessed ho should be unwilling
to support it if it contemplated a grant of public money.
(Hear.) The hon. member for Devonport complained that
capitalists continued to build mills during this period of
distress ; but the circumstance not only benefited the dis-
tricts, but also showed that Lancashire men had faith in
the future of the cotton trade. (Hear.) They believed that
prosperity would again return, and they only desired the
aid of Parliament to tide over their difficulties until that
period. (Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE hoped that the legislation which
they were then pursuing would be considered wholly excep-
tional, and warned the house of the danger of encouraging
the expectation in the minds of operatives that, when their
employment was suspended by causes over which they had
no control, the Government would support them in com-
fort until their trade revived. _

Mr. HENLEY approved of the general principle of the
bill, but he thought they would be embarking on a very
questionable course if they sanctioned the employment of
public money by corporate or other bodies in private enter-
prises. (Hear.) In that belief he should carefully watch
the progress of the bill when in committee.

: -
Sir B LEIGHTON was of opinion that it was not de-
sirable that the Government should enter the money mar-
ket and underbid the regular investor. There was no reason
why the Lancashire towns should not borrow at 4 per cent.;
bat as it was desirable that they should pay punctually, an
inducement might be held out in a reduction of the rate (4
per cent.) for pr. .mpt payment, 5 per cent, as the penalty of
delay. In regard to emigration, he could not see whygreater
inducements should not be held out to the operatives b
emigrate into other countries; but that would never take
place so long as they were paid more for doing nothing in
the manufacturing districts than spade labourers earned in
the agricultural districts. In his own district, a labourer
with a family was paid 10s. a week ; in Lancashire he would
receive 12s. for doing next to nothing; but in this, as in all
other cases, the commercial principle of demand and supply
should be allowed to regulate the price.
Mr. COBDEN said that the hon. baronet had raised
a question which had a wider bearing than that which
he had given to it; he alluded to the wages that were ob-
tained in the manufacturing districts. That was one of the
difficulties which was experienced in meeting the present
distress. It met them in the case of emigration ; it met
them in the case of relief-works ; and it met them in the
case of migration from one part of the country to the other.
The population about which they were speaking had been
receiving a rate of wages in ordinary times larger than any
other body of labouring people in England, or probably
Europe. (Hear, hear.) He had taken some trouble to
ascertain what that rate of wages had been in ordinary
times, and what it was now. He found that at the former
period families had been earning from £2 to £3 a week,
some upwards of £4, and he was satisfied that the average
earnings had been 30s. a week when engaged in the cotton
manufactories. When, therefore, they had to deal with a
population which had been living in that state of comfort, it
was impossible suddenly to reduce them to the rate of wages
with which the agricultural population were content. It
would not be consistent with their health, or probably be safe
for the peace of the district to do so. (Hear, hear.) Con -
cerning emigration he should not say a word in the interest
of the capitalists. His doctrine in the case of labour was,
that wherever it got its highest reward, that was its truest
destination. He should say nothing of the capitalist, and
his advice to the labourer was to go elsewhere if he could
benefit himself. But then came the question, would the
cotton operatives be benefitted by emigration ? When deal-
ing with the agricultural labourers, whose normal rate of
wages was 9s. or 10s.a week, no greater blessing could be be-
stowed than to transfer them to the wealthy regions of Ana:

tralia or America, where their labour was in demand. and
where their earnings were instantly doubled. But that did
not hold true in the case of the cotton spinner or weaver.
Send them to Austria or Canada, and when there they
would find no demand for their labour. There were no
cotton mills in either country, and, as a rule, nobody bene •
fitted himself by changing his business after he had arrived
at years of maturity. He might benefit himself by trans-
ferring his labour to a field of operations where there was
more demand for his skill, but not by changing his avoca-
tion. But, besides that objection to such a course at this
particular crisi ~ there was the still stronger objection that
all wholesale systems of emigration had proved not only
inoperative and disastrous, but also sometimes most cruel.
(Hear, hear.) We had in 1847 a wholesale system of emi-
gration. What happened? Wretched people were hur-
riedt:re eolltolnaws
away to Canada and America ; several thousands of
them died on the passage; upwards of 10,000 of them died
cotton population po
when they landed in Canada and America; and such a cry
of horror came across the Atlantic that Canada and America
gentlemen near,ora
Iptr prof ia Us i tpinr
proposed
otsheedi r
niomwm immigration astei onnd ina
away
dye s t i -
the
nnlation by like emigration; but were we prepared
make Provision for them when they landed on foreign
shores P (nar h
.? It was cheap philanthropy for
„ „stature, or where they wrote letters from
"au" —(laughter)—t
o say, " Send them away—let