The Sun.
London, England, 1863-07-01 00:00:00

ME SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 1, 1863

Lancashire, that an unwillingness to labour is creeping on
the people— (hear)—and that, if *e eabry them through the
coming winter in idleness, there is no telling what the con-
sequences may be on the manufactming populati n of those
districts. And here again I quote the remarkable words of
the Emperor of the French. He said he dreaded the coming
winter with respect to his oWn manufacturing population—
(hear, hear)•'.and my hon. friend the member for Sunder-
land said, We do not dread the winter, though we know
great misery must be inflicted on our labouring population
if cotton cannot be obtained, and we desire, therefete, to
avert that calamity from our countrythen that must neces-
sarily arise from the 'continuation of the cotton famine. So
far the people have not blamed her Majesty's Government,
believing that the misery they suffered has not been cattsed
by any conduct of the Government, but that It b., a been an
inevitable calamity; but they are net now like the ignorant
people of former tithe's, and I warn the noble lord not to do
anythihg that can be charged upon the Government as con-
tinuing the present suffering. I have to-day received leitilrs
from Lancashire, stating that meetings have been held in 13
great towns in favour of the recognition of the South ; and
if the nol:ln tom refuses to comply with the just demands of
the people, he will find his popularity tumbled down with a
gigantic ruin, and his small friends will follow with bim,
(Hear, and cheers) I may the house in all calmness to
consider this ettbjett, and, as men of honour, justice, and
benoVo!ehce, to grant me the proposition I ask. (Cheers.)
Lord R. MONTAGU then rose to move as amendment
that this house earnestly desires that an impartial neutrality
should continue to be maintained by her Majesty's Govern.
meet during the present unhappy contest in the States of
North America. The noble lord said he could not allow
that the lion. member for Sheffield was more anxious than
he was for the independence of the South, nor that hemore
admired the noble struggle in which the South was engaged.
But if he desired to bring a question t efc re the house, it was
not to an Austrian Emperor or a French despot that he
would run for counsel. If he wanted advice, there were
plenty of members in that house who could give him better
advice than any foreign Emperor. (Hear, hear.) Instead
of foots and arguments, the hon. and learned member had
treated them to sneers and rhetorical artifices. (Hear.) He
asked them to rec gnise the South, because the South was
successful ; that was to say, he was for interposing to pre-
vent the South of having the honour of achieving her own
independence. Then he put it to the house, could any
Power have been more insolent to England than the
North I—that was to say, the hon. member came down to
the house and endeavoured to stir up the bad passions of
the two nations in every possible way. But upon such a
question it behoved them to put aside all passion. (Hear,
hear.) How could they expect to be able to reason at all it
their eyes were blinded with passion ? He bad heard the
story of the French despatch more than a year ago, but his
version was that the French Government being suspected
of playing a double game, Earl Russell, in order to test
their faith, showed the despatch to Mr. Seward, for the
purpose of proving that the French were intriguing secretly
against the North. Now his conclusion was that the French
Emperor had been merely making a cat's-paw of the hon.
and learned gentleman. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from
the benches below the Ministerial gangway.) He owned
he found himself somewhat in the position of Gen. Hooker
when he crossed the Potomac—whichever way he faced
there was an enemy before him, all retreat being cut off. The
hon. member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) supported re-
cognition on the ground of the horrible waste of human life
that was taking place ; but he always mistrusted those sud-
den desires to stop the effusion of blood. Why, our own civil
war had lasted tea years, and the civil war in the States of
South America had lasted 15 years. Was it always the duty
of England to stop the effusion of blood ? Had that always
been our principle of action ? What would they have said
if America, France, or Russia had attempted to aid the
Sepoys in their revolt? Would they not have told them
angrily to cease from interfering ? If they would hearken
to the dictates of humanity, they should try to settle the
quarrel in the manner most conducive to the interests of
the Anglo-Saxon race, by renouncing all partiality for either
the North or the South. (Hear, hear.) A mere armistice
would only be productive of increased rancour between the
two sides; and if an armistice was to be proclaimed, how
were the limits of each to be defined ? The North was at
New Orleans, and the Southerners were in Maryland. In-
tervention could only end in war with the North, and that
was really what was meant by the hon. member's resolution.
Recognition without war would not bring even a single bale of
cotton from America ; and certainly war with America would
not increase the capabilities of Lancashire for maintaining
her starving population, (Hear, hear.) He reminded the
house that alliances to intervene always ended in misunder-
standings between the allies themselves, and asked if it were
not possible that, as in Mexico, as also in this matter, France
might be seeking to pursue a selfish policy. (Hear, hear.)
Louisiana was an ancient settlement of France. What if
the Emperor Napoleon again desired its possession. He did
not know how that might be, but he had heard rumours to
that effect. The hon. gentleman told them the South had
nearly achieved its independence. Why, then, should we
intervene ? We should remember to what it would expose
us—invasion of Canada, stoppage of the supplies of corn,
and the necessity of protecting British commerce in every
corner of the world. He did not appeal to British fears, but
he asked the house to remember what intervention would
cost. He would rather agree with Lord Derby, and believe
that the time had not arrived when it was either wise,
politic, or even legitimate, to recognise the South. That
was the conclusion to which he had come; he hoped it was
the conclusion to which the house would also come; and in
that hope he moved the amendment. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. C. CLIFFORD seconded the amendment. He
believed that the noble lord had proceeded to a right con-
elulion, though on a false ground, when he said that the
Southern States were engaged in rebellion. As regarded
the 'general question, though he felt well disposed to both
sidds, he could not disguise from himself that popular feel-
ing in this country was strongly iu favour of the Smith,
and believed that the South was making progress which
would be crowned with encores. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER next rose
and said—l am desirous, at the commencement of such
remarks as I have to offer, to take a lessen first from my
hon. friend the member for Sheffield, who told us in the
course of his speech that he had learned to bear with the
' opinions of others. (Hear.) I wish to record my adhesion
to that sentiment. I will go a step further, and say I
think it is the duty of every man, of every member of
this house in a peculiar degree, and most of
all of every adviser of the Crown, in approaching
this question to use his best and utmost en-
deavours to suppress within his breast everything like
passion, to lay aside every vestige of feeling in return. Our
duty is to treat this matter as a matter of dry fact, and,
however passion and feeling may tend to intrude themselves
into the dowain of reason, to strive to hold the balance even,
and deliver a judgment with as much impartiality, as much
abnegation of selfish prejudice and all angry emotion, as if
we ware sitting on the bench of justice or in the box of the
jury. It is impossible, if we look at this as a matter of feel-
ing, not to see that the feelings with which we must regard
it are very mixed. If we take the case of the Southern
States, I think there can be few who do not sympathise
with a resistance as heroic as ever has been offered in the
history of the world on the part of a weaker body against the
overpowering and vastly superior force of numbers. But, on
the other hand, if we look at the case of the South from that
point of view iu which it stands so intimately connected with
the profession, at least, of strong adherence to slavery, a
strong counter-current of feeling would arise in the mind ;
and I quote this circumstance because I think that, upon
the whole, we are really without excuse if, in a case so mixed,
and where different considerations tend so powerfully in
opposite directions—l think we should be the more without
excuse if we suffered our judgment to be bewildered by
strong sentiments of partisanship on the one side or the
other. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) And so also with regard
to the North. I think it is impossible for any Englishman
who justly views this matter, whatever may have been his
prejudices against American institutions, not to have a
strong fellow- feeling for those who formed in their own
minds exalted visions of the great future of their country,
stretching from one end of a great continent to the other,
and who see those visions now threatened with destruction.
There is no stronger and more legitimate instinct than that
which revolts against disruption. On these grounds we
must see that it is perfectly easy for us to understand the
feelings which have governed the people of the North in
entering into and pushing on this war, even after, as it
seems to us, to have passed all bounds of reason and of
hope; however much there must be in their measures and
their language which appear to be difficult to reconcile with
the high intelligence which usually characterises them. I
venture to say that I differ from my hon. and learned friend,
for I think that we ought to be very cautious as to giving
British interests a prominent place in the argument. (Hear.)
For my own part, T never have concurred with those
Amerie
can
a
arnnerUican Union had become s o
mattnioenr
sf
hho
ui gl
dh
bßer i
torntish i ni
nt et 0
pieces. I do not -
when he
were in danger
menacing to the world that we
agrtehe with the hon. and learned member
o
vast and so menac
rwehs thatthou gst
ahhyet s O that
tlhd
a tAi mt was
of maintaining our rights. I do n
necessarily adds
extension, thcugh it adds to magnitude,
to the vigour ofl do not for a moment
of dwindling beside it, or of havingot
think
kketnheadt our power
any other country
losing ground
in Europe, had lost power relatively, or were
admit that either aE
n ;landState. oCHFeraarnc e, or
in comparison with the United States, or
wereexercise less able
than heretofore to assert every just claim, and
levery
legitimate influence, in the face of the United States. have
always had the individual opinion, involved as England was
not so ranch in mere interest as in consideration of duty and
honour, with regard to the British North American Colo-
nies,
the
more
Wes, that the balance of States of the old Ameri-
can Union, which caused the whole of American politi3s
t
relat;iikveelystrteongth
perhapsthings more favourable
too turnus,
perhaps p
peaceful relations in America, and th
avoidance of all poli-
tical complications which might have arisen in connection
with the relations between this
than that state of things whiehecnowsnuortiet
andlis—
ahreisecooinuntiAnmuaennrciceea oiff
it were to happen that the old American Union should
divide into a cluster of Northern and a cluster of
Southern states. That cluster of Northern States,
havint lost all connection with the slavery interests
which was formerly adverse to extension northwards
would have fair and strong motives to mica- ,

your to re-establish their territorial grandeur by
uniting themselves to the colonies of British North Ame-
rica, Whether that opinion is sound or unsound, I can-
not help stating with confidence that if we were strongly to
put forward the consideration of British interests in this
matter, and if we were to found arguments for recognition
of the South upon the plea that British interetste required
it, and that British interests are threatened by the great-
ness of the American Union—by that very fact you stamp
on every argthient fbr retognition, on every tendency to-
wards recognition, on every expression of a wish for pease,
some character of hostility to our brethren in America,

(Hear, hear.) lam sure my hon, and learned friend will
feel that I ata warranted ib alluding to this subject in a
pointed manner, after he has declared, in connection with
his motion for recognrtion, that he is determined to do all
he can, on the ground of Pritish interests, to prevent the
reconstruction of the American -Union, The first and
broadest objection which it is my duty to take to the motion
is onn *latch I must take also to the amendment of the
noble lord, Either the motion or the amendment would
involve the assumption by the House of Commons of that
which it is perfectly entitled to assume in point of right if it
thinks fit, hitt wbich the House of Commons has not
thought it expedient to assume, and which I do not think
it would be expedient for it to assume—l mean the affirm-
ing by positive declaration in this house the course which
should be pursued by the Executive Government, when it
is the Executive Government alone, and not the Howe of
Comm, ns, which could have close and private cognisance
.f every circumstance from day to day bearing on the con-

dition of this contest, and on the pcsition of England in re-
gard to it ; and when, therefore, it is the dictum of pru-
dence and policy to leave in the hands of the Executive
Government that direction which it claimed. There was
no merit to be claimed by the Executive Government for
that which it had done or omitted to do, but I say that set-
ting apart all reference to this or that question of interim-
tional or maritime law, which may hitherto have arisen,
and looking to the general policy which has been pursued—
a policy not of indifference, not of unobservance, not of
blindness, but of faithful and strict neutrality up to the
present moment—that policy which has been pursued
by the Government of England has been a policy answer-
ing to the conviction and de,ires of the country. I hope
the house will not be disposed to entertain either the mo-
tion or the amendment, which would have the effect of de-
termining beforehand, by rules laid down in set phrase—
from which there would be no power to depart, whatever
the variation of the circumstances, or however strong the
dictates of expediency and right—the course which the Go-
vernment is to be bound to pursue, but rather leave it to
the Government to act in the same spirit as heretofore, and
with that regard which it has endeavoured to show both to
the justice and policy of the case, and also to the opinions
and wishes of the country. (Hear.) Ido not say that the
issue of this contest is, humanly speaking, in any degree
doubtful ; but during the whole period that the war has
lasted there has not been a single point of time on which
you could lay your finger and say that at that point of time
there were depending military issues of such vast import-
ance, and upon which so much depended with regard to the
position of the parties and the wishes and intentions of
the belligerent Powers. That the particular moment at
which the hon. gentleman has made his motion is in some
respects unfortunate, I think will not be denied ; but there
is another thing for which the hon. gentleman is to be held
responsible, and that is the speech that he has made. The
hon. gentleman came before them like a lamb, ready to offer
himself a sacrifice to the storm of obloquy he anticipated.
I rather pity a gentleman who takes up such a cause with
such a prospect; but that is a trifling matter compared
with the importance of the rest of his speech. The hon.
gentleman himself is too candid to deny that his speech ex-
hibited strong and almost passionate partisanship of the
South. That of itself would render the course he advo-
cated imprudent. It is no easy matter to separate inter-
vention from recognition; but, if the former were to be at-
tempted, any strong expression of partisanship would
prevent its receiving any attention. The honourable
gentleman went a little further, and urged upon us
our duty to the men of Lancashire. Well, what does
that mean ? Recognition would not relieve the men of
Lancashire, nor necessarily bring a single bale more cotton
into England. 4t These men," says the hon. gentleman,
" have been patient hitherto, hut they know that it is the
Government, and the Government alone, that keeps from
them that by which they earn their bread." The meaning
of that is, that if his motion were adopted there would be
an immediate and abun iant supply of cotton. I cannot
agree either with his motion or his'reasons. At the same
time I admit it to be impossible for the Government to feel
indifferent to the grave question before us. I believe it the
all but universal feeling in this country that this war
should cease. (Hear, hear.) Never was there a war of a
more hopeless and deplorable character, whether measured
by the terrible absorption of human lives—not counted in
hundreds, but in hundreds of thousands—or by the la-
mentable waste and destruction of treasure and property.
(Hear, hear.) What, too, will it bring in the future ?
There will be a dreadful bitterness between the black and
the white in the North. There is also the probably break
down of the old landmarks between right and power in the
North, (Hear, hear.) I say again that we anxiously
desire to see the end of this war. I believe this country

could never be justly charged with any unworthy jealousy
of the prosperity of America ; but if there ever were any
amongst us who, to indulge in such a feeling, closed their
eyes against all that was good and full of promise for man-
kind, they must now feel compassion and concern surpass-
ing every other sentiment. Even the sorrow we feel for
our unemployed operatives must be swallowed up in that
grief we feel for the fearful price the Americans are paying
for this awful war, and the sacrifice they are making of
their blood, their treasure, and their political institutions.
(Hear, hear.) We believe here that no war is just where
the object is unattainable; we believe also that the restora-
tion of the Union is not possible, and, therefore, that the
war is unjustifiable ; we believe also that the emancipation
of the negro race will never be effected by force

and bloodshed ; but did the hon. gentleman think on
that account that we ought to adopt his motion ? I have no
doubt he believes it would shorten the war. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman says " Hear," but what is it to be ?
Recognition with intervention, or without ? I cannot agree
that the war of 1778 broke out in consequence of the recog-
nition of America by the French. The terms of the message
from the King to the House of Commons were, that in con-
sequence of the French having concluded a treaty of com-
merce with the States of America the King had desired the
withdrawal of the French Ambassador. The error made by
the noble lord (Lord R. Montagu) is very common, I know,
but all the documents of the period show that it is totally
untrue. The right hon. gentleman then referred to the dock-
ments, and read extracts from the Annual Register. Inter-
, vention so usually accompanies recognition, that it requires
great caution, in proposing the latter, not to be supposed to
include the former. Notwithstanding that America is cen-
stantly declaring her independence of Europe, I believe the
well-ascertained voice of Europe would have great weight
with her ; but I do not think that France and England join-
ing together to demand the recognition of the South could
be confidently said to represent the voice of Europe. (Hear,
hear.) No act of interference, arbitration, recognition, or
anything else, will ever have any effect unless we slaw the
Americans that we enter upon it free from all partial views.
An unasked intervention just now would be considered an
interference with the private affairs of America, and would
bring up that united spirit of defensive power, the absence
of which up to this time has so strengthened the hands of
the South ; for; whatever other errors the American descen-
dants of our ancestors may have committed, it cannot be said
that they have not shown great, signal, and even splendid
personal courage. The responsibility of producing such an
effect is in my opinion a very heavy responsibility, and we
must look in some sense to the immense difficulty of taking
steps in a maker of this kind, and we must feel that so long
as doubt exists that doubt ought to be ruled on the side of
safety. (Hear, hear.) We feel, with the hon. gentleman
the member for Sheffield, it is time this war should end ;
but I confess I have more faith in the gentle action of public
opinion, as it grows and is gradually matured in Europe,
than I have in diplomatic acts that may tend to assume the
appearance of undue interference in American affairs, and
especially of that coming from quarters which may justly
be suspected of selfish motives. (Hear.) It is not from
indifference, or from any belief that there is an adequate
and ample object on the part of the North in pursuing this
war, that I for one venture to deprecate in the strongest
terms the adoption of the motion before the house ; but do
not let us run the risk of making worse that which is al-
ready sufficiently horrible—(hear)—and of adding to that
which now exists other feuds and other follies, that might
carry a wider desolation over the face of the world.
Mr. FORSTER seconded the amendment of the noble
lord, because he thought the motion of the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield was such a departure from the policy
of neutrality as ought to be protested against by that house.
He was glad the question had at last come before the house,
because the time had arrived when it should be known
whether they intended at any time to interfere in this war,
or whether they would now interfere by a premature recog-
nition of the South. Recognition would anticipate the de-
feat of one patty, to the ascendancy of the other, and would
be such a clear breach of international law as to give the
Northern States a casus bell if they chose to take notice of
it, in which case we ought to be prepared to enforce our re-
cognition. He asked the house and the country whether
they wished for war and the increase of the income tax, be-
cause unless they were prepared for that it was useless for
them to interfere in tho manner they were asked to do.
With regard to the statement that had been made by the
honourable and learned member for Sheffield with
reference to his interview with the Emperor of the French,
Baron Gros had, since the statement was made in
that house, gone to the Foreign Secretary, and assured
him that the hon. and learned member was mistaken in
what passed, and that there was no foundation for his
statement. (Cheers.) It might possibly be that the hon.
and learned member had been instructed by the Emperor of
the French to sound the British Parliament, and ascertain
if we were willing to follow in the lead of the French Em-
peror. (He
enough of French alliance for intervention in cases likely to
lead to war, a
China; but, happily, we had got out of the Mexi-
can intervention. Whatever might be the feeling of this
country with regard to Poland, he looked with fear and
suspicion whether danger might not arise with regard to his

kind efforts for to/and. They had heard a great deal about
drifting into war, and the "best way to prevent it was by not
allowing the hon. and learned raembei Lvr Sheffield to put

the ship England under thl guidance of a iorttn pilot.
(Cheers.) Inter-Vonlion, or the attempts at intervention;
had always weakened the peatO arty in Arrierica. The:pro.
position
of an armistice had the effect Of ;passing the Con-
scription Bill, and the publication of Lord Lyotrt 4espatch
again strengthentd the war party. A great deal depeliaed
on what they did whether power was given to President
Lincoln and those who encouraged tilt war, or to the peace
party. There was risk of war in such a resuitition as that
before them ; and What kind of war ? The war was to be
dreaded because of danger to Canada, because of danger to
the commerce of the country, and becatin of danger for the
food of the people; but, above all, it should be unpopular
because it would be a War against our own kinsmen, and in
support of slavery. (Hear.) Tic owned he felt strongly
upon the question, for he was one of those 1-r,Jught up from
his childhood in the byprocritical cant alluded to by the
hon. and learned member for Sheffield. (Ironical cries of
Hear, hear.) He denied that the question of free trade
had anything to do with the origin of the struggle. The
State of Louisiana, Which might be said to be foremost in
the contest on the side of the South, desired protection
for its sugar plantations; while none had fought harder
to maintsin the Union than the free trade states of the
North-west. In truth, the contest was for slavery, and the
boundaries of the Secessionist territory were identical with
the boundaries of the slaveholding districts. He was not
going to justify the action of the North with respect to
slavery; on the contrary, his hon. friend behind him (Mr
Bright), who had characterised him as a fanatic on the
question, knew that he never endorsed the views of his hon.
friend on the subject of America. Nay, he even went
further, and maintained that this terrible war was the
;Ireadful lesson which both North and South had to endure
for what they had done in respect of slavery. But the truth
was, the Nor th had to choose between slavery and the exist-
ence of the mother country; and, moved by a patriotic feel-
ing, the old love of slavery was renounced for the sake of the
great Union. The hon. member then read an extract from
the Richmond Examiner of the 28th May, to prove that the
leading obj,.ct of the Confederate struggle was the mainten-
ance of slavery, and it was mere trifling to say that if the
Southerners succeeded in the war they would not carry out
the objects for which they went to war. As to the past his-
tory of the Union, he had no hesitation in asserting that
those acts of which England had most reason to complain
were mainly directed by the men of the South. He looked
to the capture of Vicksburg with the greatest interest, for
he believed the peace and freedom of America depended on
that event. If Vicksburg was taken, that was an end of
all prospect of extending slavery across the Mississippi ; and
that object accomplished, the men of the No, th, seeing the
impossibility of keeping so vast a territory in subjugation,
would draw a cordon round the slaveholding States, and
leave it to themselves to settle the question as best they
might. He confessed he dreaded a war with America, not
mainly because of the suffering which it would entail upon
our people, but because of the results of our success. There
was not a despot in the world who would not rejoice over
such a contest ; and where was the Englishman so degene-
rate as to regard that result with indifference ? Such a war
would be selfish and unprovoked, and it would be antago-
nistic to the spirit of true religion and morality. (Hear.)
Lord It. CECIL, although not often able to agree with
the hon, member for Birmingham, was able entirely to con-
cur with him when he described the hon. member for Brad-
ford (Mr. Forster) as a fanatic on the question of slavery.
He confessed he had never been able to understand the rea-
soning of the anti-slavery party in this country. The hon.
member who had just sat down did not profess to hope that
the North could conquer the South, although the hon.mem-
ber for Birmingham did hope to exterminate slavery by that
means, The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was most remarkable, because it was the first exposition of
the policy of the Government; but the question which
pressed upon him was why, after conceding every one of
the positions maintained by the hon. and.learned member
for Sheffield, the right hon. gentleman had not assented to
the motion. The suffering of their own people was their
title to interfere, and France and England had but to pro-
neunce the word to contribute enormously to the re-estab-
lishment of peace. He did not know whether it occurred to
the house, but it struck him as most remarkable, that the
Chancellor of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made
no reference to the statements of his hon. and learned friend
as to the policy of the Emperor of the French. The Go-
vernment might rest assured that the matter would not be
passed over. (Hear.) The house should have an answer
to the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman. (Con-
servative cheers.) They knew that the Emperor of the
French, whatever else he might be, was a prudent and
sagacious sovereign, and he would not have adopted this
strange and extraordinary course of communicating directly
with the House of Commons—(cheers and counter-cheers)
—if he had not been driven to it by the treatment he had
received from the Foreign-office. (Conservative cheers,

with cries of " Oh, oh," from the Liberal benches.) He
believed the public would not be satisfied unless the state-
ment to which he had referred received a full and ample
explanation, or until the Government gave an adequate
reason why they did not act upon the frank and open offer
of the Emperor of the French, and justified themselves be-
fore the country for following a policy which had led to so
much misery, (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT—Sir, I cannot attempt to follow the noble
lord into the elaborate attack which he has made upon the
Treasury bench, for two reasons—that he did not appear to

me very much to understand what it was he was charging
them with, and because I am not in the habit of defending
gentlemen who sit on that bench. (Laughter.) I shall ad-
dress myself to the question before the house, and which I
think the house generally feels to be very important,
although I am quite satisfied that they do not feel it to be
practical, Or one on which they will be disp ised to take the
course recommended by the hon. and learned gentleman
who has introduced the resolution. We sometimes are en--
gaged in discussions, and have great difficulty to know
what they are about; but the hon. and learned gentleman
left us in no kind of doubt what he meant this should be.
He proposes a resolution which, under certain circumstances
and addressed to certain parties, might not be offensive or
injurious, but which, taken in connection with his character,
and the speech he has made to-night, and the speeches he
has recently made elsewhere on this subject, leads to the
same conclusion as if he had proposed an address to the
Crown, inviting the Queen to declare waragainst the United
States of America. (Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, who is supposed not to be very zealous in the parti-
cular line of opinion which he has adopted— (laughter)—ad-
dressed the hon. and learned gentleman in the smoothest
language possible; but still he was obliged to charge him
with the bitter hostility of the tone of his speech. (Hear,
hear.) He told us to-night that the American pople and
the American Government were overbearing; but he did
not tell us that the Government of the United States during
his lifetime had been conducted by his friends of the South.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman then said,
"The North will never be our friends. Of the South you
can make friends. They are Englishmen—they are not the
scum and refuse of Europe."
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that he had said "that the
South were Englishmen, but that the army of the North

was composed of the scum of Europe."
Mr. BRIGHT—I take the hon. and learned gentleman's
explanation, with this observation, that there is not in the
paragraph, and I think not in the speech, a single word
about "army." But I will take it for granted that, if the
hon. and learned gentleman said what I have read, he
greatly regrets it. (Mr. Roebuck dissented.) The hon.
and learned gentleman, in his resolution, speaks of other
Powers, but he has unceremoniously got rid of all the
Powers but France. He comes here with the story of an
interview with a man whom he describes as the great ruler
of France. He states to us a conversation, and asks us to
accept the lead of the Emperor of the French on what I
will undertake to call one of the gravest questions ever sub-
mitted to the British Parliament. (Hear.) But it is not

long since the hon. and learned gentleman he'd very dif-
_ ....... . ...

ferent opinions. (Hear.) I recollect in this house, only
about three years ago, the hon. and learned gentleman said,
" I hope I may be permitted to express my opinion, even
though it should affect so great a potentate as the Emperor
of the French," (Laughter.) On another occasion he said,
though not in this house, " I am still of opinion that we
have nothing but enmity and bad faith to look for from the
Emperor of the French ;" and he went on to say that though
he had been laughed at, he still adopted the patriotic cha-
racter of " Tear'em," and was still at his post. (Great

laughter.) When the hon. and learned gentleman came back
from his expedition to Cherbourg, does the house recollect
the language which he used on that occasion Y—which, if it
expresses the sentiments he felt, I think he might have been
content to have withheld. Referring to the salutation
between the Emperor of the French and the Queen of these
kingdoms, he said, " When I saw his perjured lips touch
that hallowed cheek"—and now the hon. and learned gen.
tleman has been to Paris, introduced there by the hon.
member for Sunderland- -(laughter)—and he has become,
as it were, in the palace of the French Emperor, a co-
conspirator with him in dragging this country into a
policy which I maintain is as hostile to its interests as it
would be degrading to its honour. (Hear.) Then the
high contracting parties, I suspect, are not agreed, because
I will say this, in justice to the French Emperor, that there
has never come to him, in public or from his Ministers, nor
has anything been written, that has been tinctured in the
smallest degree with that bitter hostility which the hou. and
learned gentleman has constantly exhibited to the United
States of America and their people. France, if not wise in
this matter, is at least not unfriendly. The hon. and learned
gentleman, in my opinion, I am sure is not unfriendly, and
I believe he is not wise. (Laughter.) But on that subject,
without speaking disrespectfully of that great potentate,
who has taker the hon. and learned gentleman into his con-
fidence, I should say that the Emperor runs the risk of be-
ing far too much represented in this house. We have got
two, I will not call them " envoys extraordinary," but
" most extraordinary." (Laughter.) If report speaks true,
even they are not all. Why, the hon. member for King's
Coun;'y (Mr. P. Hennessy) came back the other day from
Paris, and there were whispers about hat he had seen the
great ruler of France, and that he could tell everybody in
the most confidential way—(laughter)—that the Emperor
was ready to make a spring at Russia for the sake of de-
livering Poland, and only waited for a word from the Prime
Minister of England. I do not underetand the policy of the

emperor as these new Ministers declare it. Because one
gentlat-an says he is about to make war with Russia, an-
other that he is about t,) make war with America. lam
dispoed to look at ',What he is already doing; seed I find
that he is holding Rome against the opinion of all Italy—
(Hear, hear, and No from Sir G. Bowyer)—that he is con-
quering Me-lie° by painful steps, every footprint marked by
devastation and blood ; that he is warring—in some desul-
, tory manner, it may be—in China, and, for aught I know,
retry be about to do it in Japan. Well, I say, that if we were
to add Anmia and the United States, and that he is to engage
in this dismemberment of the greatest Eastern empire and
the great Western republic, he has a greater ambition
than Louis XIV., and greater daring than the first of
his name; and that, if be grasps these great transactions, his
dynasty will fall and be buried in the ruins of his own am-
bition. I can only any one word on the question to which
the noble lord the member for Huntingdon has devoted so
much attention; but we have not heard all the story from
Paris; and, what is not remarkable, seeing that the secret
was confided to two persons, we have not heard it correctly.
(Hear, hear.) I saw the hon. member for Sunderland in his
place ; his face undo went divers remarkable contortions
during the speech of the hon. and learned member for Shef-
field, and I felt perfectly satiefied that he did not agree in
what his colleague was saying. It now turns out that there
is a written document which gives a memorandum of what
was set down; cad I suppose, some time before this discus-
sion ends, we shall have it, and see how far the two hon.
gentlemen are agreed. I think the question of so much in-
terest, that, after hearing one story, we ought to hear the
other. Leaving that which might be considered personal,
I come to tho proposition which the hon. and learned gen-
tleman has submitted to the house, and which he submitted
to his Sheffield constituents on the 27th of May, put into
these words, and in these words I am willing to receive it
—" What I have to consider is what is for the interest of
England, and what is for her interest I believe to be for the
interests of the world." The hon. member said the honour
of England had something to do with her interests, and that
the whole case of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield
rested on a miserable jealousy, or what might be
termed a base fear—a fear as groundless as any other panic
by which the hon. and learned gentleman was from time to
time seized. He pointed out the groundlessness of the fear
that the United etates as a confederation would join toge-
ther for aggression against England or any other country
of Europe, and said the hon. and learned gentleman, as an
experienced member of the House of Commons, ought to
consider well before he spread abroad these needless
alarms amongst the people. For such fear and miserable
jealousy he wetted break up a friendly nation, formed as
it were of our own flesh and blood, depart from all the
usages of nations, and throw the weight of England into
the scale in favour of the curse of slavery. With regard to
the usages of nations, no one could read the recent pamphlet
by F. W. Gibbs without being convinced that England had
three kinds of interest in this question, viz., the commercial,
the political, and the moral. With regard to the supply of
cotton, very few men were more interested in it then him-
self, and not more than three or four had studied the ques-
tion more deeply then he had done. The point he was going
to argue was that the war now going on was more likely to
abolish slavery than anything else in the world. The supply
of cotton must at all times be uncertain under the slave
system. The house thought so some years ago, because
they ordered a commission upon the subject, and but for a
very silly Minister they would have sent a commission to
India. Would it not be conceded that it would be better
that the cotton cultivation should be by free than by slave
labour ? The slave States were not half cultivated. There
was not more than 10,000 square miles of cotton planted,
and they only sent cotton over at a rate of 100,000 bales in-
crease per annum, whereas the manufacturers wanted
double that quantity. The reason was that where there
were slaves no other labourers went, None of the emigrants
who landed at the Northern ports ever went South. The
difficulty now with a Southern planter was to buy his
labour, for he had not to hire his hands only, but to buy
them, and to buy 200 negroes would cost £20,000. That
was but one item, so that but few men could enter into the
trade. He believed that in less than 10 years after freedom
had been declared the production of cotton would be
doubled. Upon the political part of the question, he did
not mean to say that the South might not conquer the
North, and join that large party in the North which some
persons called the peace party, but which was in reality not
a peace party at all, and so form one large united king-
dom. He hoped it would not be so; and, as he believed
in the moral government of the world, he did not believe
it would be so. But should that happen, America, with
her mighty navy and almost unlimited power, might offer
to drive England out of Canada, France out of Mexico, and
out of the islands of the West Indies all those who might
be interested in them. They would thus have a State built
up of war and slavery, instead of that other State founded
upon an instructed people, upon general freedom, and upon
morality in the Government. (Much laughter.) Much had
been said about the carnage of the war ; but adding the
French to the English, and those to the Russians, Sardi-
nians, and Turks, there were more killed in the Crimean
war than in the civil war in the States. In that war the
poor victims were sent 3,000 miles away to fight for a worth-
less and undefinable cause, and when he spoke of the car-
nage then, he had been charged with maudlin sentimen-
tality. In America, however, every man knew well for what
he enlisted, and for what he was sent to fight. (Hear, and
a laugh.) Every year before the war broke out 150,000
used to be born to the badge and doom of slavery—born
(according to laws framed by the devilish cupidity of man)
to the lash, the chain, and the branding-iron. He did not
know whether hon. members felt as he did, but when he
went home and found six little children all playing on his
hearth—(laughter)---it called up the most holy joys that be-
longed to the memory of the past, or the hopes of the future.
(Hear, hear.) If when the hand of death took one of those
household treasures their hearts were filled with sorrow,
what must be the aggregate of the multiplied grief
amongst the parents of those 150,000 poor infants born and
brought up amongst these "gentlemen" they heard so
much of—" the chivalry of the South"—those men whom
we were advised to make our friends ? (Hear, hear.) Did
the house so easily forget the countless agonies that be-
longed to the thousand horrors of the slave system before
the commencement of the war ? (Hear.) It was all very
well to say that slavery was not so bad as it had been
represented ; but the brother of the honourable mem-
ber for South Durham told him not long ago of one
woman in South Carolina, whose every child to the num-
ber of ten had been taken away frcm her and sold as soon
as it had reached a marketable age. (Hear, hear.) He had
not heard that night anything about President Lincoln's
proclamation, but we were not in a position to deny its le-
gality, As we only recognised in America one nation, one
president, and ene law, that proclamation was a legal do-
cument, and the slaves of the South by it were now virtually
free. For upwards of two years the North had conzended
for its existence and human freedom, and it was the first
country that had come forth as the defender of freedom
and equality. Yet the hon. and learned member for Shef-
field wished to throw the hostility of Europe into the scale
against them. The effect of a war would be to ruin our com-
merce, and at its termination that great and free people, the
most instructed—(oh, oh)—in the world, and the most
wealthy, would have left in their hearts wounds that pro-
bably centuries would not heal, and which the posterity of
some of those who heard him might look back upon with
amazement and lamentation at the course that had been
taken by the hon. member for Sheffield and those who sup
ported him. He hoped the house would not assist his coun-
trymen to lift their hands or voices in aid of the most stu-
pendous act of guilt which history had recorded in the
annals of any race. (Cheers, and Oh, oh.)
Mr, P. WINDHAM supported the recognition of the
Southern States, and concluded by moving the adjournment
of the debate. (Cries of " Adjourn," and for Mr. Lindsay.)

Sir G. GREY, after referring to the statement made
by the hon. member for Sheffield, said he was unable to
give any explanation of it, and all he could say was that
what the hon. member had stated was at total variance
with the information her Majesty's Government possessed
of what had passed between the two Governments; and,
further, Baron Gros had called upon Lord Russell, and
had informed him that he had received no such instructions
from the Emperor as had been stated by the hon. and
learned member for Sheffield. (Hear, hear.) His hon.
friend the Under-Secretary did not know what had oc-
curred when he answered the question in the House of
Commons that no such information had been received. But
there certainly was ne breach of confidence in impart-
ing to Mr, Seward the communication from the Emperor
of the French. All that happened with reference to the sub-
ject he could not precisely say, but this he knew, that the
receipt of the despatch was no secret at the time. It was
discussed in the newspapers, and it was answered in cour-
teous terms, of which the Emperor had no reason to com-
plain, and of which he never had complained. No doubt
the despatch of Lord Russell was communicated to Lord
Lyons, that he might be fully possessed of what was pass-
ing in Europe with respect to the contest in America; but
so far from there being any secrecy with regard to it, why,
the very first day of the meeting of Parliament it was laid
upon the table of the house. He must say Lord Lyons was
utterly incapable of the conduct imputed to him, and that
throughout he had acted in a manner even to justify the
high esteem of the American Government.

Lord R. CECIL said he had no intention of imputing to
Lard Lyons any act that was contrary to official duty. He
was merely repeating the statement made by the hon. mem-
ber for Sheffield in the early part of the evening, but he had
no desire to charge him with having broken any order from
the Foreign Office. No doubt, whatever Lord Lyons did
was in strict conformity with the orders addressed to him
by the Foreign Office.

After some observations from Mr. NEWDEGATE in
strong antagonism to the resolution,
The debate was then adjourned.
In reply to Mr. ROEBUCK and Lord R. MONTAGU,
Sir G. GREY was uLderstood to say that the discussion
could be renewed on Monday; but

Mr. ROEBUCK said he would bring it on in going into
committee of supply on Thursday.

POISONING BILL

Lord RAYNHAM having movcd—The second reading
of this bill,

Sir G. GREY moved that the second reading be post-
poned until that day three months, which was carried
without a division.

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IN SCHOOLS BILL.
Viscount RAYNHAM moved the second reading of