The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-27 00:00:00

HILL COOLIES.

Mr. LA BOUCHERE presented papers relating to
the state of the health of the Hill Coolies in Demerara. He
would take that opportunity of stating, that since the question
was put to him a few days ago, he had looked more closely
into the returns made to the Colonial Office upon the matter,
and he found the mortality was not confined as he supposed
to one estate ; the information before the Colonial Office
did not show that the general state of health amongst the
Hill Coolies was such as it ought to be ; but every particle
of information that was before the Government was laid
before the House, and he hoped it would be printed and
in the hands of Members in a very few days.
Sir J. GRAHAM begged to ask whether the Govern-
ment intended to take any steps upon the subject during
the present Session.
Mr. L ABOUC HE RE said the papers would be printed
in a very few days, and he doubted whether it would be
well to discuss the matter until they were in the hands of
Hort. Members.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved

that the House resolve itself into a Committee upon the
Bank of Ireland Acts.

Sir R. PEEL begged to ask what ccurse the Noble
Lord intended to pursue with respect to the Poor-law
Continuance 13111.

Lord J. RUSSELL —lf he could not get it on that
night, would move it first upon Monday, and he should
then propose the Birmingham Police Bill.
Sir R. PEEL begged to ask whether the Government
had any authentic information relative to the events which
had lately taken place in Syria--had they any information
upon which they could rely.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Government had received
general information upon the subject of the total defeat of
the Turkish army—they had no details upon the subject
more than had already appeared in the newspapers.
BIRMINGHAM RIOTS.

Sir E. WILMOT seeing the Hon. Member for West-
minster in his plac.e, begged to ask him the favour of not
bringing on the motion be had in the paper respecting Lo-
vett's case, inasmuch as the papers upon the subject had not
been printed

Mr-. LEADER said it appeared that whether in great
or in small things, the Government had only one weapon
to use, viz., delay. He had wished to bring the matter
under the notice of the House before the trial of the men,
but of course he must postpone the subject, owing to the
neglect of the authorities in the Home Office.

-Sir E. WILMOT only begged for the postponement of
the question because the papers were not ready. He was
prepared to enter into the discussion then, but it would
not be fair to the House to do so, until the papers were in
the hands of Hon. Members.

Mr. F. MA ULE said he had taken every means in his
power to push forward the document. No time had been
lost on his part.
Mr. ELLIS wished to know whether the Noble Lord
had intended to lay before the House all the documents
he had in his possession relative to the late riots at Bir-
mingham. There were the original depositions sent
to the Home Office and the Horse Guards,
and, no doubt, the Noble Lord had received
letters from various quarters on the subject, all of which
he (Mr. Ellis) thought it was important should be before
the House.

Lord J. RUSSELL'S only objection to producing all
the documents was, that they were very voluminous. The
bettcz way would be if the Hon. Gentleman wished to have
them before the House, for him to make a motion to that
effect.

Mr. ELLIS said it would be exceedingly unfair that
any partial representations should be made to the House,
and he would therefore give notice that on Monday he
would'move that copies of all papers received by the Go-
vernment relative to the disturbances in Birmingham be
laid before the House.
BANK OF IRELAND ACTS.

The House then went into Committee on the Bank of
Ireland Acts.
Mr. O'CONNELL would trespass on the attention of
the House only a very short time, as he knew it was hope-
less to attempt to make any resistance to this destructive
measure. He wished first to know from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, who had talked about giving banking faci-
lities to houses of business and diff.l.ent Joint-stock Banks,
whether these Banks were to be permit,cd to receive de-
posits ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that with respect to Joint-stock Banks not issuing paper
money, there would be full power of discharging all the
ordinary functions of bankers, but with respect to those
Joint-stock Banks and banks in the country that issued
Paper money,' having houses of business in Dublin, they
would not be allowed to receive deposits,
Mr. O'CONNELL did not think that any good or valid
arguments could be adduced in. favour .of that line
of conduct. He would, however, confine himself to the
c questionh
e q :Cr
had before the House. The Chancellor of the Ex-
stated there was .no compact between him and
the Bank of Ireland on this subject. Now it was
rather unfortunate
fortheßightHonourable
Gentle-
man, that persons
like a contract as an
Bank of Ireland immediatelyi connected with the
exhibited a document as
Hon. Gentleman had made his the Bank stockyha
thingdr could possibly be, and accord-
inglyTilat such a document did exhi.st per cent. before the Right
in
stating,
thi
aeg, (Mr.i.ra m 0; Council)iu information
ati believedu !l 'ha
had ew
statement in that House.
Plhrporting to be a con-
tract,nuite warranted
a st receivedad ;i buta thattha
it was not a contract he was quite read
Chancellow of the Exchequer had stated' it was not :con.

tract. However, there had been neglect somewhere in
having put it in the power of those persons to give the
favoured few the opportunity of thinking and believing,
and creating an impression, for their advantage, that such
a contract existed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had
said—and it might have been his (Mr. O'Connell's) fault
that he had not been able to discover that from the Act—
that the Government were bound to keep in their hands the
entire amount of the loan made by the Bank of Ireland,
and that the Government was not at liberty to pay it back
again. The abstract of the Acts he (Mr. O'Connell) had
seen did not say anything to that effect, but if there was an
Act compelling the Government to return the money in
any given time, he had no doubt the House would hear
from the Chancellor of the Exchequer what that Act was.
The question upon the resolution before the House lay in
a very narrow compass. There was no question as to free
trade in banking to be decided by the House in the reso-
lution before it. The resolution was nothing but to con-
tinue the Bank of Ireland its privileges; that was to say,
its monopoly of issue within a given space. He had not
thought it right to allow the resolution to pass last night
at so late an hour, and although he did not mean to give
any vexatious opposition to it, yet he should oppose it as
firmly as he could. The House had simply to decide that
whether any case had been made out for continuing to
the Bank of Jreland this monopoly.—( Hear, hear.)
That case should be some services rendered by that Bank
to the public. They had not been stated by the Right
Hon. Gentlemen, and he ( Mr. O'Connell) would state
just simply this, that so far from accommodating the public
in any way, notwithstanding the existence of the
Bank of Ireland, the Bank of England notes were
at a discount in Dublin. They were not so
valuable as the common currency of the country, and
the Bank of Ireland gave no remedy for that depreciation
of the Bank of England paper. It was a strange anomaly
that there should be a Bank privilege in this country, and
that the Bank of Ireland should be a legal tender in this
country and in Ireland, and yet that the Bank of Ireland
should be so constituted as not to give the means even of
realising the proceeds of Ireland in this country in the
shape of Bank notes. All the evidence adduced by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer related to the panic of 1836.
Now it was rather strange, but it was borne out by the
evidence, that the panic was created by the misconduct of
the Bank of Ireland. Upon the only instance mentioned
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Bank of Ireland
was so mismanaged as actually to have been discounting at
a low rate, having lessened their rate of discount at the
time the Bank of England was raising their rate of dis-
count, so as distinctly to counteract the attempt of the
Bank of England to limit the currency. They had, there-
fore, the Bank of England raising the rate of the exchanges
to limit the currency, and thay had the Bank of Ireland
lessening the rate of discount so as to increase the quan-
tity of gold in circulation, and thereby counteract the
object of the Bank of England. And yet this resolution
went to continue that monopoly of issue, the worst species
of monopoly ; and the great manufacturing towns of Ire-
land were deprived of the same facilities of banking which
other towns had, giving a priority and superiority to one
class of towns over another, and that in favour of a Cor-
poration whose best title to it was founded upon their own
gross mismanagement. And the evidence was distinct
that they were in no correspondence with the Bank of
England, that would enable them to regulate the cur-
rency. On the contrary, they were totally ignorant of all
the disturbing facts which made it necessary for the Bank of
England to reduce the currency ; and in the answers to the
questions put by the Hon. Baronet on the other side, they
showed they had no kind of correspondence with the Bank
of England to enable them to co-operate with them.
He would not go further into the subject. He should take
the sense of the House on this question, and again must
protest against the manner in which the people of Ireland
had been treated in the matter by the sudden hurrying on
of a plan of which, till within the last threcweeks, they
bad no information.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should have been satisfied to leave the question in the
hands of the House ; had it not been for a matter per-
sonal to himself, on which he felt it absolutely necessary
that he should immediately rise. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had a very convenient mode of dealing with
personal charges. This was the second time—once last
night, and now again—that the Learned Member had sug-
gested a personal charge, with a statement of his own un-
willingness, to believe it. But the impression conveyed
to the public would alike be inconsistent with his (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer's) public duty and private
honour ; therefore, he was called upon in the most distinct
and unequivocal manner, in which a direct con-
tradiction could be given from an individual to
another,—to deny every part of the suggestion of the
Hon. and Learned Member—a suggestion which amounted
to nothing short of this :—that in his (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer') official capacity he had stated to the
House that he had not entered into any engagement with the
Bank of Ireland,whereas that he had actually done what was
tantamount to a contract—communicated a written engage-
ment to the " favoured few"—containing information
which they had been enabled to turn to their private ad-
vantage. True, the Learned Gentleman had intimated
that he did not believe it—perhaps in charity. If the
Learned Gentleman did not believe it he ought not to have
made the charge. If he believed it, he should have brought
it forward—not in a mitigated, doubtful suggestion—but
a distinct, unequivocal charge, with which he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) might grapple; because the
character of a public man was public property in this
country, and any individual base enough to turn his offi-
cial knowledge to the pecuniary advantage of any parties,
would be not only unworthy of the office he held, but un-
worthy of any respectful consideration. —( Hear, hear,)
He called upon the Learned Gentleman to bring forward
any evidence he could furnish as to this charge. He
would not allow it to remain as matter of suggestion or
insinuation; for elsewhere, or probably, in that House,
his own contradiction might be considered only an equi-
vocal and parliamentary denial, and was, in fact, an ad-
mission of what he felt to be a foul calumny. Nor
should it rest upon the option of the Learned Gentleman
who might perhaps decline entering into it. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) would tell the House the
whole transaction; he would state the witnesses who might
be examined. He would invite the House to examine
them, though surely—that any man holding a high office
in the Government should apply his official knowledge to
influencing the public securities, and thus casting doubt
on all public transactions—the characters of public men
for the last fifty years might be a sufficient ground for
discredit. He trusted the House would remember what
the statement which he made last night was. He stated
then that so far from following that which was the ordi-
nary course on similar occasions, namely, that of making a
contract. with the Bank of Ireland, he had specially ab-
stained from any such course, and that consequently the
Bill which lie should have to introduce in place of reciting,
as was usual, that it was done with the consent of the Bank
of Ireland—that portion, which was considered matter of
contract, was left blank in the Bill to be filled up as might
be thought expedient. Now he would tell the House ex-
actly what he had done. When the notice
was given of the intention to bring this question
forward, he asked the Honourable Member for Kilkenny
to postpone the notice until he had requested the mem-
bers of the Bank of Ireland to come to this country. They
accordingly came over here; from some cause or other
over which the Hon. Member for Kilkenny had no con-
troul the notice was postponed ; but the gentlemen con-
nected with the Bank of Ireland came to London, and he
had various interviews with them, as he had also had with a
deputation from Drogheda, and one from the Provincial
Bank of Ireland. When he had prepared his plan, he
communicated it to all the parties whose interests might
be affected by it. He communicated it to the deputa-
tation from Drogheda; they received from him the most
complete description of the plan he intended to intro-
duce, and for the itruth of that he would appeal to the
Hon. Member for that town. In like manner he had
made the same statements to the Governor of the Bank
of Ireland, and also to the deputation from the Provin-
cial Bank, but he accompanied that statement to the
Bank of Ireland with this observation that he would not
enter into any contract with them, and that they were not
at liberty to bring it before the Court of Directors and Pro-
prietors until the decision of the House of Commons and Par-
liament should be taken. Such was the simple transaction.
The Bank of Ireland had the same access to him as gentlemen
from other establishments, and he should not have acted
honestly with the Bank of Ireland, if he had admitted
other classes to communicate with him, and excluded
them.—( Hear, hear.) Such a course would, in his opi-
nion, have been against common sense and justice. That
was precisely what had happened, and based upon that trans-
action the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had
suggested that he had entered into a contract with the
Bank of Ireland, and that it could be proved, for the pur-
pose of enabling that establishment to obtain an advantage
of 5 per cent. on their property. He would say that be
had not been dealt justly with in this matter. Insinuations
had been made respecting his conduct which ought not to
have been made, unless those who made them were pre-
pared with evidence to substantiate them. He would inform
the House of the names of the only gentlemen connected
with the Bank of Ireland with whom he had held
communication on this subject. These were Mr. Wilson,
the Governor of the Bank of Ireland, a gentleman of
known honour and respectability; Mr. Arthur Guineas,
a gentleman well known in the commercial world ; and Mr.
Carr, one of the Directors of the Bank of Ireland. All

these gentlemen were forthcoming. The Hon. Gentle-
man might call upon them—they might be called to the
Bar of that House, and asked if they knew of a single word
that had passed that could afford any, the least founda-
tion for the suggestion of the Hon. Gentleman. He beg-
ged pardon of the House for thus speaking of matters per-
sonal to himself.—( Cheers.) He did not believe that in
addressing an assembly of gentlemen—of men possessing
honourable feelings—it was necessary to enter into this
refutation, because they would not believe that a gentle-
man could be guilty of a dishonourable action.—( Cheers. )
But he knew that if be did not take this mode of confu-
tation, as well as of denial, he should hear cf this affair again.
This was not the fir,t time that the Hon. Gentleman had
made use of the words that the people of Ireland had been
deceived by what had occurred before. He believed that
on the occasion referred to the Hon. Member for Dundalk,
who bad voted against him last night, had been present at
the interview, and he would put it to him whether any-
thing had passed on that occasion which would justify any
gentleman in asserting that he had been deceived by him
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer). He had not spoken
to that Honourable Gentleman on the subject, but he was
sure that Honourable Gentleman would not allow imputa-
tions to be cast on any one r4pecting transactions to which
he had been privy, and which it was in his power to refute.
The House he trusted would excuse his occupying their
time with a matter personal to himself—(Cheers)—but
they must be fully aware that any man not sensitively
alive to these points of personal honour, would be unworthy
to fill the situation which he had the honour to occupy.
He would now advert to the question mere immediately
before the House, and would take the admission made b.
the Hon. Gentleman, that the question was not so much
one of free trade in banking, as of the free power of mak-
ing money by issuing promissory notes. As to a free trade in
banking, provided it did not clash with a free power of mak-
ing money, he hoped no difliehlty would be found in intto-
ducing measures which would tend to the advantage of all.
There was one to which he would now call the attention