The Sun.
London, England, 1837-11-21 00:00:00

THE ,SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 1837.

peated that it was utterly impossible for them long to remain
in office as a liberal Government, if they abided by the resolu-
tion of the Noble Lord to resist all reform of the Reform
Act.—( Cheers.) -
Mr. C. BULLER said he wished to call the attention of
the House not simply to the Speech from the Throne, but
to the debate of last night, every part of which, as a Reformer,
and friend to the Government, he deeply regretted.—(Loud
Cheers.) He had shown them how entirely he disapproved
of the speech made by the Honourable Member for Finsbury
who had chosen last night, in defiance of the request of those.
who were quite as sincere supporters of Parliamentary
Reform as himself, to bring forward the question in a
manner, which even almost all the few who voted for it,
declared to be unseasonable and detrimentalto thoseißeforms.
Sir, it would be very difficult, with any kind of grace, regard
being had to see the absurdity that took place last night,
to give the palm to any particular person. He generally
judged that a person on his side of the House committed a
blunder, when what he stated was met with any approbation,
by the other side of the House. Applying this test it was ex-
tremely difficult to decide which received the greatest ap-
plause from the Tories—the Hon. Member for Finsbury or
the Noble Lord for Stroud.—( Hear, and laughter.) There
was this difference, however, between the two, that there was
no imprudence which the Noble Lord could commit that did
not inflict the greatest damage on the Reform Bill and bit-
terly disappoint the hopes of the people. He differed from
many of the opinions expressed last night by the Noble Lord,
but he differed much more from him upon the point of the pro-
priety and prudence of the tone and temper with which he took
what had been stated by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, and
declared his unalterable determination not to amend or
carry out any further the Reform Bill. From -the tone
and temper of the Noble Lord, who was not soon moved
to excitement, it appeared to him: that the Noble Lord
had only wanted a pretext for quarrelling with a .great
number of those by whom he had heretofore been supported.
—( Cheers.) He was sorry to be obliged to say this, and
ehdimtrheeasNonobtolethLinokrdotwheo
was determined to take this course, he did right in avow-
ah reo around rucvldiseyr
bugtivief
thhiem
Naonbdle tLhoorsde
ing it.—(Cheers, and cries of " Hear, hear.") If he was
tired of the assistance of those who had borne him into office,
he was right in throwing away the orange after he had been
refreshed from its juice. He (Mr. B.) only hoped he was on
with the other side of the House before he was off with the
side on which he was on.--( Hear.) But if he preferred the
tenure of office by suffrance from the other side, rather than
from the support of those who had hitherto supported him,
he was certainly at liberty to make his own choice, only
Let the Reformers of England judge.—(Cheers.)--The
Reformers of England would judge, and would feel deep
indignation at those who brought the other side of the
House into power--( Hear, hear)—and the people would
know that it was not the fault of the Reformers on his
side of the House, but the fault of the Noble Lord himself.
He must say, and by this he begged not to be understood as
being at all personal t 3 the Noble Lord, that the
language of the Noble Lord, with respect to two of the ques-
tions which' he was pleased to denounce last night,
Isurprised him very much.—( Hear, hear.) When the Noble
Lord wanted the support of the advocates of the ballot, he
held a different language towards them. The Noble Lord,
1 when he brought forward the Reform Bill in alluding to the
Septennial Bill and the Ballot, took a very different tone indeed.
Instead of then talking of the finality of the Reform 13111,
he said that those other questions to which he had alluded
would remain open to debate ; but by his declaration of
list night, the Noble Lord had violated that pledge.
Did the Noble Lord suppose that if in that nicely balanced
Parliament he had held such
,language as he had used last
night towards the supporters of the Ballot he or his cal.
leagues would have held office for one hour ?—( Hear, hear.)
This was evident from the admissions even of the opposite
party. When the Ministry relied on the number of peti-
tions presented in favour of the Reform Bill, why the
taunt of the Right honourable Baronet and his supporters
was that nearly all the petitions that were presented in favour
of Reform, included a prayer for the Ballot.--( Hear, bear.)
Indeed it was a matter that no one could deny, for on
the petitions being separated it was found that nearly
ten to one of the petitions presented for Reform included
the Ballot.—( Hear.) He was satisfied that nothing had oc-
curred sinco then to alter the minds of the people with respect
to that question.—( II eir.) I may off_nd, as, indeed' I fisheye
I have before offended, the Noble Lord and his Colleagues by
the. declaration which lam about to make. He said it, how-
ever, gravely and deliberately, and after mature considera-
tion—namely, that the Reform Bill, as it worked during the
three last elections, was an inadequate test of public opinion.—
( Opposition cheers.) That the quantity of demoralization, cor_
ruption, and intimidation which it had given rise to was such,
that it was impossible for any civilized community to go on
under such a barbarous system.—( Ironical cheers and laughter
from the Opposition.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite might laugh,
for they ought to be proud of the uses to which they had turn-
the Reform Bilk It would remain, however, with the people
of England to decide how long they had to laugh at the ("xis.
teace of such an abuse.—( Hear.) He stood on the principle
of the Reform Bill, he wanted not its letter but its spirit.
Did the Noble Lord and the Right Ilon. Baronet suppose
that the people in the support they gave the Reform Bill,
gave their support to Schedules A or B, or any of the details.
—( Hear, Ilea-, hear.) He emphatically denied that the
people gave their ardent support to the principle laid
down by Earl Grey that we should not have nomination but
representation.—(Cheers.) Now there was in existence a
viorse system of nomination than prevailed before the Reform
Bill. He meant that the nomination was placed in more hands
than before, but they had not the responsibility to public
opinion . which prevailed under the old system. II e
(Mr, Buller) was quite willing to leave it to the
country to decide, whether those who thought
with him that the Reform Bill ought to be
ammended were destructives or not. On such a question lie
cared not for the opinion of the Hon. Member for Tamworth,
because however well he might be acquainted with politics he
never was able to understand the feelings of the people not
one great principle had he taken up from which he had not
been driven by the feelings of the people..--( Loud cheers.)
Throughout his life lie-had been the able and eloquent but the
most inflexible opponent of every species of Reform.--(Con-
tinued cheers.) He had no wish to embarrass her Majesty's
Government—(Cheers)—but he wanted particularly to shew
the country that there were in that House more than 20 Mem-
bers who were their friends. He wanted to show that there were
many more than the twenty who voted last night, who were in
favour of an extension of the franchise, he wanted to show
that there were more than twenty in that House who would
give protection to the voter.--( Loud and repeated cheers.)
The Noble Lord hafi not merely objected to great and sweep-
ing changes, but he put the very worst construction upon his
own words.—( Hear, and " No, no.") He must say that the
Noble Lord had fallen into an error of presumption as great
as that which the Duke of Wellington committed in 1830, after
the result which he had witnessed from the declaration of the
Noble Duke, he tells the people of England that he will not
, extend to them the reform which they demand—that he will
sot extend the Suffrage to the great body of the people—in a
word, that there shall be no representative Government—
( Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said—Sir, I feel it ne-
cessary to answer the Hon. Gentleman in respect to two
points to which he has adverted—( Hear, hear)--not only
in respect to the subject which was before the House,
but also in respect to the allusion wnich the Honourable
Member has made relating to myself. Sir, with respect to my-
self, I must say that I very much regret that the Hon. Gentle-
man, who, in the latter part of his speech made the admission,
that what I had said must be taken with qualification, should say
that in my speech of last night I sought occasion to quarrel
with my own supporters, and that I was seeking excuses for
an alliance with another party. Now, Sir, I must say that a
more base imputation could hot be cast on the
conduct of any public man, and Sir, in the face of the House
and the country, I must say emphatically that the imputation is
utterly unfounded.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman is
right in stating that, when I spoke last night it was not
altogether from the impulse of the moment or without pre-
meditation, but that I had considered beforehand what was
likely to occur in the debate on the Address. I had duly
considered what was' most likely to occur, and I came
to the determination that if the debate should be confined to
the the topics hf the Speech from the Throne, I should
not thryw out any allusion to topics upon aslaich there
miget exist the least possible differences of opinion.—
( Hear)—and which might be introduced by some of those
Gentlemen on this side of the House, who have given the
Government the most disinterested and honourable support
during the time that we have had the honour of holding the
seals of office. But my determination also was that if topics
were introduced, which I had every reason to suppose
would be introduced, and which I could not fail to have
a strong opinion—if topics which I disapproved of, such as
propositions for entertaining questions which I think can-
not be entertained without inflicting injury then it
was my intention, whatever imputations might be cast
upom me, and whatever oblique I might incur not to withhold
the avowal of my opinions.—( Loud cheers.) Sir, I know
not whether the House will agree with me, but certainly as far
my impression went, and as far as my intention went, I did
think the speech of the Hon. Member for Finsbury and the Hon.
Member for Leeds, and indeed of the speech of the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny, were speeches as offensive—( Great
cheering)--as well could be made by gentlemen in this House,
who pretended to that character.--( Cheers.) I did likewise
and, as far as my interest was concerned, I will answer for tt,
in my reply to them, I did not mix up anything of a personal
nature, but I confined myself to subjects of general
interest. (Hear, hear.) Well, Sir, hut it seems that those
opinions are opinions which the Hon. Member who spoke last,
sod some of the other Honourable Members who spoke last
night, say will be injurious to the Government.__
(Cheers.) Now I must say that I am not at all
satisfied with the tone which gentlemen very often adopt
friendly Council to the Government.—(Cheers.) Always
basing it upon the topic that such a course of policy was the
only to pursue to ensure the stability of the Government.—
( Cheers.) Ido not pretend, far from it, to say that lam
indifferent to the continuance of the Government in office.
(Cheers.) Ido not make any profession that I wish to hold
office or retire into private life—( Hear, and cheers)—but this
I do hope, if the question is between a continuance in office
or between, being pressed and forced into opinions which I do
not avow—(Cheers)—and supporting measures which I think
could be injurious and destructive to the country. Ido hope
I may at least be removed from the imputation of making a
dis iouourable choice.—( Loud and continued cheering.)
\Veil then, Sir, what waa the great topic of debate last tight?
It was a topic that was forced on wantonly, and a topic which
did not hely the other topics in the speech of the Sovereign
or in the answer which should be made to that speech. The
different questions mooted last night might at any time have
been brought forward in the shape of a Bill or motion; and

there can be no doubt that they would then have received a
dispassionate consideration; but brought forward as they were,
and being obliged, as I conceived, to enter into that discus-
sion, I did not conceal from the House my opinion
upon them.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last, the Member for Liskeard ( Mr. C. Buller), seemed to
think there was an. inconsistency in those opinions as regarded I.
the Septennial Act and as regarded the Ballot, from the opi-
nions I gave at the time the Reform Bill was proposed. I stated
ut the time when the Reform Bill was proposed, that the
question of the Ballot, and the question of the Septennial
Bill, were not included in that Bill of Reform; that it would
always be in the power of the Government, or of any Member of
this House, to treat that question as it thought fit ; that I did hope
however the House would pause before it sanctioned a system
which would give entire responsibility to the voter, and that
if they made any change in the duration of Parliament, they
would not make that duration so short as to be inconvenient
both to the country and to the transactions of the business of
Parliament. Such, I believe, was the substance of what I said
and the effect of it was to encourage those questions rather
than discourage them, but leaving them at all events open for
future consideration.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Well, Sir, lam
now ready to declare what I thought at that time. I did
think it might appear, that the shortening the duration of
Parliament, and the taking of votes by Ballot, might be a
system which could be safely introduced into our Constitution,
and thal in the course of the various discussions that might
take place in Parliament, and in the country, that that might
be the result which the Legislature might arrive at.—( Hear.)
But I kept my mind ready to watch the progress and course of
events, and judge, as I thought, what was best for the interests
of the country, in that respect. Now, Sir, I am ready
to say, that with respect to tha duration of Parliament, I have
always thought that three years was too short, and I have
r peatedly said that seven years was unnecessarily long, but
that really the question was not of very great importance be-
tween five and seven years. With respect likewise to the taking
the votes by Ballot, I do not attach so much importance to
that question by itself as many others do. It is a question
of very considerable importance; but I always thought that
oincneeoy.....(
f the strongest objections to it was its probable ineffi-
c Hear, hear.) Ido not think that by it sufficient
security can be obtained, or intimidation prevented.—( Cries
of " Hear, hear.") I make these observations not because I
am going to enter further into these questions, but because I am
going to remark upon what appeared contradictory in the
late discussions with respect to these questions and others
connected with them. The greater part of those
who are advocates for the ballot say that at the
same time the suffrage ought to be extended,
many say to household suffrage. \Veil, then, if it was ex-
tended to household suffrage, would it be advisable to have it
extended to the small boroughs ? A gentleman who gave evi-
dence before the Intimidation Committee, of considerable expe-
rience and sagacity, and who holds very strong opinions upon
the subject, I mean Mr. Parkes, states that in the small
boroughs, if the Suffrage was so extended, bribery would pre-
vail to a very great extent.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The
Hon. Member for Kilkenny is another authority on the sub-
ject, and he tells us that he is an advoeate for
Household Suffrage. but observe he considers it only as a step
Universal Suffrage. Another Gentleman, who was lately
Member for Liverpool, I mean Mr. Evart, has addressed
a pamphlet to the public on the subject of the reform of
the Reform Bill, and the Honourable Gentleman,
the Member for Westminster, advocotes very great
changes, of which the Ballot forms a part and only a part.
Now, taking all these circumstances together, even if now
disposed to think that these opinions in favour of the Ballot
were right, I am obliged to stop and consider, supposing
Parliament were to institute the vote by ballot, would that
ballot in itself form the termination of these discussions
with respect to the constitution of this House ?—(ilear.)
The Hen. Member for Liskeard says it is desirable, when we
settle these questions, that it should be finally, and that there
should not he a perpetual recurrence to them. Now this is the
doctrine that all Bon. Gentlemen would de disposed to aclopt,be-
cause it is the doctrine of common sense, in order that the time of
Parliament may be devoted to partial reforms with regard to
the state, to finance, and other matters. 'that is the doctrine
of all those who consider that the House of Parliament, if
occupied in continual constitutional charges, must be lost
to those other treful, effectual, and practical reforms.
Why, then, agreeing with the Hon. Gentleman that such a
ease is not desirable, I come to the conclusion that if the Bal-
lot were adopted ;stole, or 'if the shortening the duration of
Parliament were adopted aloue at the present time, it would
no either so far satisfy men with regard to the Reform
Bill, or make it appear to them a complete
act as that we should not be immediately required—and per-
haps very ratimially required—to have farther changes.
For observing now with respect to this question of the
Ballot itself, those who have not the suffrage, and complain
of the limitation of the 101. suffrage, they feel that though
they have not the suffrage they have the power of
knowing how each of their neighbours vote ; but I
very much apprehend, that if that vote were secret,
if the suffrage were secret they would then say, you are right
in establishing secret suffrage, hut with that the franchise
ought to be far more extended. I think it would be rational
to say, why then, I can hardly enter upon one of those courses
without lam prepared to pursue it. I saw very lately an ac-
count of a meeting in the newspapers, which took place, for
the purpose of supporting the Ballot, which ended with some
other person taking the chair, and its being declared that the
Ballot would be :delusion on she public, unless there was a
further extension of the suffrage.—( Hear, hear.) I must,
therefore, really consider those questions together, and
consider myself as now speaking, not in the year 1831, but
as speaking in the year 1837, and seeing the experience I have
seen, inquire whether it is, or is nut, fur the advantage of the
country to adopt any one of those plans, taking for granted that
if you do so, you must re-construct the Reform Act, that
you must extend the suffrage ; that you must abolish, accord-
ing to one gentleman, many of the small boroughs ; and that
you must consequently diisturb, according to another, what re-
quires care that harmony which exists between the agricultural
the manufacturing and the other interests of the country.
( Cheers from the Tory side.) I may be entirely mistaken on
that question—my views may be entirely erroneous—that
the evils of the present system—as I do not think it de-
serves the epithets the Hon. Gentleman has applied to it—but
Ido say it is better for us rather to try to amend the
pres 'nt system in its delays, and to endeavour
to carry out the business of the country under
the Reform Act, than it is for us to attempt any new
system of suffrage.—( Much cheering from the Tory side.)

LEFT SPEAKING.

THE LONDON GAZETTE

THIS EVENING.

DECLARATIONS ok. INSOLVENCY.
WILLIAM BRYCESON, brass-founder, Great Queen-street
Lincoln's Inn-fields.
WILLIAM BIRD, innkeeper, Cambridge.
BANKRUPTCY SUPERSEDED.
WILLIAM MACKINTOSH, licensed victualler, Liverpool.

_ .
BANKRUPTS.
JOHN OSBORN, horse-dealer, Upper Montague-street, Mon
tague-square.
DAVID BOAST, chymist, London-road, Surrey.
BENJAMIN FULLWOOD, annatto-manufacturer, Iloxton.
WILLIAM PETTIFOR, common-carrier, Nottingham.
HENRY GODFREY, chymist, Leamington Priors.
HENRY SHUCKBURGH, grocer, Bristol.
a SAMUEL BALSDON, tailor, South Molton-sireet.
iPHYLBERT HAMLIN ROBERTS, broker, Exeter.
HOIIERT DUNCAN WILMOT, merchant, Liverpool.
JOHN FERGUSON, manufacturer, Hanging Heaton, York•
shire.

JAMES DRIVER, hatter, Cambridge.
JOSEPH YATES, dyewood-grinder, Manchester.
THOMAS S'fOKES, innholder, Clevedon, Somersetshire.
WILLIAM BURNELL, cloth-manufacturer, Wortley, York
shire.

RICHARD DONOVAN MURPHY, wine-merchant, Liver
pool.
JOSEPH H. WEPSTER, linen-draper, Lowestoft, Suffolk.

SCOTCH SEQUESTRATION.
JOHN SHARPE, grocer, Howe-street, Edinburgh, Nov. 24
and Dec. 8, at twelve, at the Old Signet Hall, Royal Exchange.

COURSE OF EXCIIi
Amsterdam C.F. 12 4.4
Ditto, at sight ....... ........ 12 2%
Rotterdam 2 U. 12 5%
Antwerp...
Harnlsurg. M.B. 13 13
Altona ..
Paris, 3 days' sight 2) 65
Ditto ....... .............. 3 Ms 95 95

NGE.-( THIS DAY.)
qihraltar 4E

Leghorn 3134
Genoa l5
Milan 31

Venice eg
tiaples 39
Palermo per oz. 118%
Lisbon
Orono .5'2%
Rio Janeiro 27.
"42

M arst _ __. -
illes.
Pourdeaux
Frankfort on Maine, Ex. M 152!6
Petersbuigh, ruble 3 Us. 10

Bahia 25
Buenos Ayres
--
Dublin, 21 days' sight
Cnrk IY2
PRICE OF BULLION, PER OZ.
Portugal Gold, coin .•3 14 0
Foreign Gold, in bars...— 3 17 9
New Doubloons
_ .

Berlin
7 3
Vienna, efrective fl ...... '2 M. 10 10
Trieste ditto lO P 2
Madrid 331 i
Cadiz....
Bilboa .... . '4
Barcelona 'lt

New Dollars ........... 0 4 9N
Silver, bars. standard 0 0 0

Seville S4

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

OPENING OF THE NEW PARLIAMENT BY
THE QUEEN.

From the SECOND and EXPRESS EDITIONS of The Sun oi
last night.)
HOUSE OF LORDS.—Nir. 20.

The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose amid great
cheering. He said—My Lords, it gives me the greatest
satisfaction to rise for the purpose of giving my assent to
the Address that has been proposed by the Royal Prince,
and seconded by the Noble Lord opposite. My Lords,
looking at the gracious Speech of her Majesty, and
the Address moved by the illustrious Duke, I
should have thought it unnecessary to address one word
to your Lordships upon the subject, if it had not been that
I felt bound to express my respect for her Majesty, and
the illustrious mover of the Address.—(Cheers.) My
Lords, I shall certainly follow the example of his
Royal Highness, and of the Noble Lord who seconded the
Address, in making no observations, either upon the Speech
or the Address, which can occasion any irritation
or difference of opinion on the part of any Noble
Lord.—(Cheers.) I sincerely congratulate your Lord.
ships that upon this, the first occasion on which her
Majesty has addressed the Parliament called by herself, it
is in the power of this House to return an answer which
shall be unanimous.—(Great cheering.) It is impossible
that any Noble Lord could have addressed himself to your
Lordships with more judgment and discretion than the
illustrious Duke and the Noble Lord who has just