The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-07 00:00:00

SPAIN.

Sir HENRY H ARDINGE said that perhaps the
Noble Lord opposite would allow him then to give notice of
a motion, which he meant to make upon an early day.
He could not then give the precise words of the
motion, but it would be to the effect that an humble address
be presented to his Majesty, praying his Majesty not to re-
new the Order in Council, granting permission to his Majesty's
subjects to enlist in the service of the Queen of Spain,
and to give directions that his Majesty's Marine Forces may
be employed only in grantitig such naval co-operation
with the Queen of Spain, as his Majesty is bound
to give by the treaty. He begged also to state that it was
- his determination to press this motion to a division.
It was his intention to bring his motion forward on
Monday, the 17th, if he had no earlier opportunity ; and
he hoped the Noble Lord would be able to give him as-
surance that on that day week he would be able to bring
fort and his motion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it would convenience
the Government very much if the Right Hon. Bart. would
bring forward his motion on Thursday next, at the same time
be could give him an assurance that he would then have an
opportunity of doing so, as the Hon. Members for Bath
and Finsbury had motions for the abolition of the Stamp
Duty on Newspapers. He would be glad if these Hon.
Members would give way to the Right Hon. Baronet,
as he thought his motion of more pressing importance than
the others, and by that means they would have Monday to
dispose of the Orders of the Day in their usual course.
Sir H. HA RDINGE—If any impediment were thrown
in his way on Thursday next, he should certainly bring it
forward on the Monday following.
Mr. ROE BUCK complained of the want of courtesy ex-
hibited by the Right Hon. Baronet, for he had not even
asked him to withdraw his motion. If he had done so,
and that the Government gave him (Mr. Roebuck) an
assurance that they would take the subject of the Stamp
Duties into their consideration—(a laugh)—he would
cheerfully give way.
Sir H. H ARDiNGE did not think that any thinghe had
said could have justified the animadversions of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Bath.

Captain BOLDERO begged to ask the Noble Lord
(J. Russell), if he could give him any reason why the
despatches connected with the late affair in the North of
Spain, had not been published ? There were many persons
in that country deeply interested in the fate of their friends
and relatives.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not answer the ques.
tio❑ without notice.
__ QUALIFICATION OF MEMBERS.

Mr. WARBURTON hoped the motion which he was
about to make would receive the assent of the House. It
would be in the recollection of Honourable Members, that in
the early part of the Session the Honourable Member for
Cornwall had made a motion to abolish entirely the pro-
perty qualification of Members, and if he (Mr. Warburton)
thought there was any likelihood of that motion being
carried he would prefer it. He did not propose to abo-
lish but to amend the qualification, confining it to three
hundred pounds per annum for Members for burghs,
and six hundred pounds per annum for Mem-
bers for counties. That proposition was so reason-
able that he did not apprehend any objection to it.
No one would venture to assert the proposition, that gentle-
men who derived their income from land were the best
fitted to discuss and consider questions which arose in that
House. On the discussion on the Reform Bill the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer justified the non-insertion of a
clause in that Bill, because it was so very easily evaded. It
was easily evaded, for the oath was nothing more than a
promise with a religious obligation superadded, and in
all cases of promise it was to be understood merely as the
respective parties construed it. But even further than
that, in the statute of Anne, which directed the Members
of that House to take the oath, the promise was with the
party, who was left to put his own construction upon
the oath he took. As an instance, it was formerly
the custom, that when a person entered the army
he was required to declare upon the faith of a man
of honour and a gentleman, that he had given no more
than the regulation price for his commission. The
Colonel was also directed to make the same declaration.
These things were done, yet it was a notorious • fact
that no one at the time entered the army without
paying a vast deal more than the regulation price.
It was because he despaired of persuading the House to
get rid of the property qualification altogether, that he pro-
posed some qualification. As the oath that was taken was not
observed in that House, why, he would ask, did they not
attempt to break down the qualification altogether ? He
could not anticipate any objection to the measure he was
about to propose, except that of his Honourable Friend the
Member for Bath. What he proposed was, that 300/.
a year should be a qualification for boroughs, and
600/. a year for county Members. He proposed to admit
tenures or land of a different description to those at pre-
sent required. He would take leaseholds of a sufficient
length to give to the party the reasonable prospect
of having an income of 3001. a year, secured on
leasehold property for his life. He would take not only
leasehold, but any description of personal property, funded,
for instance, or any other that would give for a certain period
an income of three hundred pounds, or six hundred pounds
a year. If a person had a:valuable collection of pictures,
though they did not yield an income, yet they might be
considered as a security for property, and would show
that the party was a man of substance—he would ad-
mit that qualification.—(Loud cheering.) He would
also include professional men. He did not see why barris-
ters, physicians, or gentlemen in the army, should be
excluded if they had an income of 300/. a year
for life.—( Hear, hear.) He would also include fellows
of Colleges not being Members of the Church. These
were the descriptions of property which he proposed would
be sufficient to qualify a Member to sit in that House.
Added to this, he would require a total repeal of the sta-
tute of Ann and the statute of Union. The Hon. Member
then moved for leave to bring in a Bill t ( repeal those Sta-
tutes, and containing other provisions. He would leave all
exceptions, both as regarded contract and the sons of Peers,
precisely in the same state in which he found them.
Mr. ROEBUCK could not allow the subject to pass

without making a few observations. The Honourable
Member's course might be a very correct one, but he did not
think it a very expedient one. He thought the House
ought not to interfere hastily with any existing law. He did
not like paltering with the public, and he could never agree
that because a person possessed a valuable picture of
of Salvator Rosa, that, therefore, in consequence of the
possession of that picture, he was entitled to a seat in that
House. Was it to be supposed, that from the possession
of such a gem, the individual had received that edu-
cation which fitted him for a Legislator of such
a country as England ?—(Hear, and loud laughter.)
Mr. WYNN did not rise to object to the present
motion ; he thought it might be very expedient to consider
the state of the law as it was now constituted. If the qua-
lification could be rested upon personal property he would
do it directly, and not by a side wind.—(Hear, hear.) He
would not however object to the motion for bringing in the
Bill, as the House could hereafter modify its details.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
glad to find that the Right Hon. Gentleman did not mean
to oppose the measure. He should certainly oppose
the proposition for doing away with all qualifica-
tion ; and the only question was, whether the present
plan was an improvement, and the best improvement
that could be suggested. The only defence of the present
system was—and it was evident every day that such was
the case—that persons were found who would trust a
Member with a certain amount of property. He,
however, should decidedly object ; although he had every
respect for the fine arts, the clause conferring a quali-
fication by the possession of a fine picture or a statue ;
but on the whole he was glad the subject had been brought
under the consideration of the House, and he should give
it his support.
Mr. LEADER objected to the Bill, and would move as
an amendment that the qualification of Members be alto-
gether abolished.
Mr. WARBURTON would occupy a very short time
in reply. He instanced the case of pictures as a species of
valuable property, which did not bring in anything.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
BEER LAW.
Mr. WARBURTON then rose to move for leave to
bring in a Bill to regulate the sale of beer in towns.
By his Bill he proposed to alter the hours of shut-
ting up beer-shops, by extending them in towns where
there were more than 5,00 inhabitants. The Bill was
nearly the same as that of last year, and as it then
met with general approbation, he would not detain
the House longer than to move for leave to bring in the
Bill. He proposed to add clauses giving power to
executors to enter at once on the property of licensed
persons who might die, and also to give Magistrates
power to afford aid to clear beer-houses, when
it was applied for. He also proposed to regulate beer-
shops in smaller towns than those of 5,000 inhabitants, but
being more stringent as to the hours of shutting.
After a feW words from Mr. WILKS and Mr. HAWES,
leave was given to bring in the Bill.
POST-OFFICE.

Mr. WALLACE then rose to move that the boxes fur
letters at receiving houses throughout London shouldbe kept
open till 12 o'clock at night, the same as the General Post
Office. He said the matter would cost nothing, and it would
afford the same facilities to the inhabitants of the metro-
polis as were enjoyed by every other place in the kingdom.
In other places the receiving boxes were open for letters at
all periods, whilst in London, where facilities were most re-

quired, the public were restricted to eleven hours, namely,
from eight in the morning to seven in the evening. In con-
sequence of this restriction, many Members who devoted
their time to the House in the evening, lost a great part of
their privileges as to franking. He had made inquiries at
the chief office in St. Martin's-le-Grand to know if there
were any means of saving that privilege, and he was told
that any frank put in between seven and twelve o'clock
would be forwarded next day. He tried the experiment,
requesting of one of his correspondents to send back the
cover to ascertain if there was any change, and the words
" Too late" were written on the cover, but there was no cost.
Now this convenience was confined to the office of St. Mar-
tin's-le-Grand, all the other boxes being closed after seven
o'clock. To obviate the inconvenience result'ng from such a
practice he would move " That it is the opinion of this House
that the General Post letter receiving boxes at the branch
offices throughout this metropolis should be kept open for
letters being put therein at any time convenient for the
people, between seven o'clock, P.M., and twelve o'clock at
night, as is the case at the General Post-office at St.
Martin's-le-Grand and every Post-office in the kingdom,
and especially that the receiving bags for General Post
letters in the Houses of Lords and Commons be also kept
open until twelve at night, this making the time of the
franking privilege all over London the same as at St.
Martin's•le-Grand, and in all other towns."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ad-
mitted that the question was one worthy of consideration,
but be thought it would be lessening the dignity and wast-
ing the time of the House to descend to such minute in-
quiry into the details of opening and shutting the receiving-
boxes at the Post-offices. It was a question not for that
House, but for the Post-office Commissioners. There was
no difficulty with respect to opening the use of the receiving
boxes to the public ; but with respect to franked letters the
matter was not so easy. This would be understood when he
stated that the sum derived from taxed franked letters
amounted in 1836 to 9,7001. There should be some check
on the privilege of franking, which could not be easily met if
the letters of two days were to go by the same post. It would
create the necessity of keeping a double account, which would
increase the duty tenfold, and unless some precautionary
measure was adopted the proposition would most likely lead

to any abuse of the franking privilege. The proposed faci-
lities to the Houses of Parliament would not be so difficult
of adoption as the matter could be done. He would com-
municate on the subject with the Post-office Commissioners
and urge them to provide a remedy for the inconvenience
complained of as far as it could be remedied without open-
ing a door to fraud. This, he thought, would be a better
plan than to call upon the House to affirm any resolution on
the subject.
Mr. HUME reminded the Right Hon. Gentleman that
all that was asked was to put members in London on the
same footing with respect to their privilege as those in the
country. The Right Hon. Gentleman did not tell them
what he intended to do. He (Mr. Hume) did not want
the House to go into the details of any office, unless when
he was compelled to do so. It was hard that Members,
because they did. not reside within the precincts of St.
Martin's-le-Grand, should be put to a great inconvenience,
or lose the privilege which these resident in the country en-
joyed. If there was a proper person at the head of the
Post-office department this inconvenience would not exist :
but that person was engaged in the pleasures of the country
or other pursuits. He had hailed with pleasure the propo-
sition made by the Right Hon. Gentleman last year with
respect to this department, and if a hope was held out that
that proposition would be followed up he was sure his
Hon. Friend, the Member for Greenock, would give up his
resolution.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mst4o
some observations, which we did not catch.
Sir R. PEEL said it would be desirable to know what
were the Post-office regulations with respect to the trans-
mission of Parliamentary papers. The general impression
was that they went free of postage, and within certain limits
as to weight, this practice would be very advantageous.
Mr. HUME—There is no limitation.
Sir R. PEEL considered that the non-limitation rendered
the practice more open to great abuse, and calculated greatly
to interfere with the general arrangement of the Post-office.
He would not deny the advantages to be derived. from a
wide circulation of Parliamentary papers and proceedings,
but he thought it advisable that some precise regulations
should be laid down on the subject. If eight or ten bulky
papers were sent in one day, and it was insisted that they
should go by that day's mail, would it not be attended with
great inconvenience ? He did not think that Hon. Members
were generally aware of their possessing this privilege.
Mr. HUME—Oh, yes ; it is very generally known to
them.

Sir R. PEEL—If an Hon. Member were to send eight
ten such papers as I have mentioned—
Mr. HUME—They can send fifty or sixty books.

Sir R. PEEL—If a Member could send fifty or sixty
books, it will at once be perceived that this must consi-
derably interfere with the Post-office arrangements, and
that some limit should be set. If the practice were to be
adopted the time must come when it would materially im-
pede the velocity with which the mails were transmitted,
and prove highly detrimental to intercourse by letter. The
proposition' for having the receiving-houses open during the
night might be the means of exposing letters to the hands
of skilful extractors, who would probably take advantage of
the loneliness and darkness for that purpose. At all
events, it would be better, having called the attention of
the Executive to the subject, that the matter should be
left in their hands, both as to the remedying the present
inconveniences, and adopting the necessary precautions.
Mr. L ABOUC HERE admitted that the enormous
weight of some of the documents did oppose serious impe-
diments when they were to be carried by that day's post.
In extreme cases, however, the authorities at the Post-
office had taken upon themselves to delay them a post,
and sometimes to send them by the steam•packets,
but those cases were the exceptions.—( Hear, hear.)
In answer to the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he
would say that he saw no difficulty in the way of opening
the receiving-boxes. A change in the management was, be
admitted, desirable—(Hear, hear)—as the Postmaster-
General was not able to devote sufficient time to the de-
tails. With respect to the Secretary, Colonel Moberly,
he could only say that that gentleman was so overwhelmed
with the business of his own department, that he could de-
vote no time to extraneous matter, and it was not his

fault if the business was not conducted in a satisfactor;
manner.

Sir A. AGNEW was understood to object that th
opening receiving boxes on Sunday- would compel the
opening of shops.
Mr. L ABOUCHERE said the opening would b
through the 'outside shutter.
Sir A. AGNEW would rather not facilitate either tin
writing or the transmission of letters on the Sunday. H,
would prefer allowing the privilege of twenty franks of
the Monday. He also objected (as we understood) to
proposition of the Commissioner for allowing letters to pas:
through the metropolis on.the Sabbath.
Mr. R. WASON said that the Hon. Baronet who
was so particular about the observance of the Sabbath h,
had understood had lately, in conjunction with other!
started a two-horse coach which was convenient to his re
sidence.—(Laughter.) Of this he was certain, that th
Hon. Baronet had attended a dinner to celebrate the put
ting on of that coach.

Sir A. AGNEW had certainly lately been engaged ii
the establishment of a two-horse coach, and he had mucl
pleasure in stating that it was one of the few in his Ma
jestv's dominions which did not run of a Sunday.=-(Heal
hear.) It ran but six days in the week, and he was gla,
of an opportunity of giving publicity to the fact.—(Crie
of " Question.")
Mr. R. WASON said the coach he alluded to was on,
from Stanraer to Glasgow, and that it did travel on a Sunday
Sir A. AGNEW said with that coach he had nothini
to do. The Hon. Member finding that one coach wont
not do started off to another.

Mr. PEASE complained of the want of arrangement ii
the Post-office, which rendered it necessary to make th,
mails travel so heavily laden. He had known an instant
where the mail was compelled to carry two tons ano
eighteen hundred weight.
Mr. EWART regretted that the head officer of th
Post-office Department was not a Member of that Hous(
so that they might any time drag his conduct befor
them. He considered the suggestion of Mr. Pigott as ti
the conveyance of letters the most desirable, which was tl
have a penny stamped cover, which would avoid the re
ceipt of money, and the duty would be paid on the cove
at the Stamp-office.

Mr. WALL ACE replied the delivery of letters woul4
not be, as alleged by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir A
Agnew), in any respect a desecration of the Sabbath. II
Cheltenham, where the people were most orderly, then
were two deliveries from the Post-office on a Sunday. It
the Irish metropolis a most extraordinary distinction existed
The letters from the " aliens," or Saxons, were delivered
but the letters from the interior of Ireland were not. Tin
Hon. Member concluded by stating that it was his inten
tion to withdraw his motion.

After a few words from Sir A. ActiEw, Mr. AGLIONBY
rnd Mr. Pram, HOWARD the motion was by leave with
drawn.

SUPPLY.

Lord HOWICK then moveithe Order of the Day to
bringing up the Report of the Committee of Supply, which
' being agreed to,
The SPEAKER proceeded to put them to the Housi
in the order last night voted ; and on the sum o
3,101,652/. Is. 10d., for providing for the charges of hi,
Majesty's land forces at home and abroad, exclusive o
India, being put,
Mr. HUME said that in this the twenty-first year o
peace, it was downright madness that we should hay
123,000 fighting men. He objected to that part of the three
million and one hundred thousand which gave 500,000/. fot
10,000 men. What his motion now would refer to wouk
be the reduction of 4,000/., the pay of General Lord Hil
as the Commander of the Forces. He did not wish to sa3
anything. against the private character of that Nobleman
or against his character as an officer, but he heard nothing
out of the House but what a shameful thing it was that s
Whig Government should continue Lord Hill at the
Horse Guards. The Tories would never have done that,
The Hon. Member concluded by moving that the sum o'
4,1341., the pay of the Commander-in-Chief, including tin
forage for sixteen horses (which the Hon. Member salt
would support sixty poor families), and the allowance fol
the Military Secretary of 2,139/., making in all 6,2824,
should be discontinued.
Lord HOWICK hoped the House would not consent to
anything which could give colour to such a proposition.
Mr. EW ART thought that the Government ought to
have none but liberal Bishops and liberal Commanders-in-
Chief.—(A laugh.) He should be reluctant to vote against
the Government, but he must support his Hon. Friend,
Mr. ROBINSON protested against the doctrine which
would convert all the officers of the State into political par.
tisans. It was in consequence of such doctrine that the
country was so convulsed at present that there was scarcely
a Government.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that if the Government had been
really the liberal Government it professed to be, it would
have stood out on principle, and not accepted office until
Lord Hill had been dismissed. He should support the
motion.
Mr. RICHARDS opposed the motion of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex.

Captain BERKELEY said that a gentleman of fortune
in Gloucestershire wished on the death of his father to tra-
vel, and to effect this he wished to have a commission in
the British army. He applied to the head of the Whig
party in Gloucestershire to obtain permission for him to
purchase a commission in any regiment in the service
whatever ; but his application was met with every kind
of excuse and delay and hesitation ; and, finally, he saw
that attempts were made to prevent instead of further-
ing his object. Finding it impossible to succeed in that
quarter, he went to the family of the Duke of Beaufort
for that purpose. His family had always supported the
Whigs. Lord Fitzroy Somerset was then, as now, Mili.
tary Secretary of the Horse Guards. The gentleman in
question said to the Whigs," if I get what I want through
this channel, I and my family will be no longer in your in-
terest, we will vote with the Tories."—(Laughter.) The
application was made to the Horse Guards accordingly,
through, he (Captain Berkeley) believed, Lord Fitzroy So-
merset, and in a very short time it was pronounced stw-
cessful. The permission to purchase, which was sought for,
was given ; the purchase was made pursuant to that per-
mission, and since then the gentleman and his family had
become Tories.
Lord HO WICK hoped the House would not be led by
the Hon. and Gallant Member's allegation to any prejudi-
cial conclusion as to the case quoted, until opportunity was
afforded of further justifying, or altogether rebutting it.
Many causes might be shown why a second application
should be received, when a first had been rejected.
Captain BERKELEY only stated a fact which Ilad
already been mentioned to Lord Grey when at the ]Lead of
the Government.

Mr. GROTE supported the motion.
After a few words from Mr. A. Trevor, Mr. Sanford,
Mr. G. F. Young, Mr. Aglionby, Colonel Thompson, Mr.
Scarlett, Sir C. B. Vere, Mr. Wason, Mr. Villiers, and Mr.
Hume, in explanation,

Mr. C. W. WYNN said that the constitutional mode
of proceeding would have been for the Hon. Member for
Middlesex to move an address to the Crown for the removal.
of Lord Hill from the command of the army, if he thought.
there were grounds for such a motion, or to move that tile
office of Commander-in-Chief be abolished altogether 7 but
it was not at all a proper course to refuse a vote of supply
for a branch of the public service, which the House had not
taken any steps to abolish. There had been many instances
in the reign of Queen Anne, and in other reigns, of the re—
moval of military commanders, on the ground of political,
bias, so that the Hon. Member for Middlesex could not be
at a loss for a precedent. But, then, a motion of such as
nature should be brought forward in a regular manner after
notice, so as to give the accused party an opportunity of
defence.

Captain BERKELEY, after the attack made upon the
authenticity of his statement, felt himself called upon to
give the names of the parties to whom he alluded. The
person who made the application for a commission was a
Mr. Lovedale, and he first applied through Lord Seagraves
but that application was not-successful. The application•
was renewed through the Beaufort family to the Horse
Guards, and the commission was then granted. He was
prepared to furnish the details whenever they should be re-
quired.
The House then divided—
For the original resolution
For Mr. Hume's amendment
Majority 46
The resolution was then agreed to.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.
The House went into Committee on the Imprisonment
for Debt Bill.

On clause 12 being read from the Chair,
Mr. RICHARDS opposed the clause. It gave a right
of action for all debts under 1001., and the small creditor
might thus be put to the cost and trouble of three actions
before he could obtan judgment. The clause would ope-
rate most unfairly in other respects, for it gave far greal,er
advantages to the large creditors than to the small 'one3'
Twelve months might elapse before judgment.could be o 1
tained, and by that time the whole of the debtor's, property
might easily be swept away, or he might evade l':15 creditor
altogether.

Sir F. POLLOCK was not the advocate of arrest for
debt, or imprisonment for debt. He must say, however'
that in this Bill the objects of the Common Law Commis-
sioners were not carried out, and he did trot approve of the
policy of this clause. The objeet the Commissioners pro:
posed to themselves was to put end to arrest and impel'
s.eament for debt, and to make the property of the debtor
available. In this object he entirely concurred. But the
clauses of this Bill did not contain sufficient machinery for
effecting the object. It did not give sufficient protection.
to the creditors nor even to the debtor himself. If ale'

1

di

sebtor had no means of satisfying the demand of his cre-
ditor, this clause would be altogether useless and unimport-
ant. In the case of bankruptcy at present there was
a searching inquiry made into the affairs of the
bankrupt with a view to the interest of his creditors.
By the proposed measure any person, however large his
property, might be sued for a debt, and if, after a judg-
ment should be obtained against him, he should not pay
the debt and costs, the creditor might make him file a
schedule.of all his debts and property, have him brought
before Commissioners, and finally sent to prison. He
( Sir F. Pollock) could not see the advantage of this.
With respect to the Insolvent Court, a person under that
system was, doubtless, liable to be called up before the
Insolvent Court from time to time ; but, at the same time,
he had a correlative benefit in return, for he made a
schedule of all his debtors as well as creditors, and was
then discharged, without being liable to any subsequent ar-
rest for the debts upon his schedule. He (Sir F. Pollock)
thought that a measure which called upon a debtor to
make out a schedule of all his property, and to expose the
real nature of his affairs, ought to be followed by some
greater advantage than the exposure of all that property
to the risk of being sold for the purpose of paying some
single creditor.s—( Hear, hear.) A debtor ought not to
be exposed to a system which, in the end, gave him no
relief. He had better be exposed to the necessity of
going to prison till lie could pay, for he :vould be as likely
to obtain real liberty by that means as lie would by the pre-
sent measure. Why should the creditor have all the benefit,
and the debtor no relief or redress ? Under the pre-
sent system a man gave up all his property ; but he had the
satisfaction of knowing that all his creditors had the benefit
of it. Under the Insolvent Debtors' Act, creditors fre-
quently recovered 20s. in the pound, and there was not
unfrequently a surplus.—( Hear, hear.) But by the pro-
posed measure a creditor might get a judgment against his
debtor, and being thus entitled to take from him property
to the full amount of his debt, might proceed to sell re-
versions, expectancies, or any description of property be-
longing to him. He thus recovered his debt in a manner
most prejudicial to the debtor.—( Hear.) He had been a
member of the Common Law Commission, which had re-
ported to the House upon this question, and he was anxious
that the opinions of those persons connected with it,
which were unaccompanied by details, should not lead to
mischief by being misconstrued. He wished to see the re-
commendations of that report fully carried ont, for it con-
tained recommendations which, if adopted, would save the
country, in costs and expenses of one kind or another, the
annual amount of 250,000l.—(Iicar, hear.) By the plans
recommended in that report, both debtor and creditor
would be benefitted ; whereas by the clause before the
House a creditor would derive all the benefit, and the
property of the debtor run the risk of being prejudicially
disposed of, and himself of being materially injured.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was glad to hear that
the Hon. and Learned Member for Huntingdon, as well
as the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, remained un-
changed in their opinions, that arrest or inesne process
ought to be abolished, as well as all imprisonment for debt,
except in certain cases. His Hon. and Learned Friend
also agreed with him in the opinion that there must be some
more direct remedy against the property of debtors than at
present existed. But of what use or advantage would it be
to introduce a measure giving that remedy, unless at the
same time they compelled debtors to disclose in some way
or other the extent and nature of that property ? Now
the 12th clause of the present measure was calculated to
Produce such disclosure, and was merely auxiliary to the
other clauses of the Bill. He really could not see where
was the hardship of calling upon a debtor to make a state-
ment of his means of paying his debts ; and lie would only
be summoned before Commissioners, or committed to prison,
in cases where the creditor had reason to believe lie was
concealing property. His Hon. and Learned Friend said
that the Insolvent Debtors' Act protected the persons of
creditors, and rendered their property liable. Now the
present measure gave a more direct remedy against
Property, while it afforded equal protection to the per-
son, except where fraud existed. There was nothing in
it-which wobld prevent any dnbtor making an equal distri-
bution of his property among his creditors, if he• chose,
for he might under it commit an act of bankruptcy ; and
by a clause which he should have the honour of introducing
into it, every debtor, and even a Member of Parliament,
would be compelled to do so—( Hear)—unless his debts
should be compounded for in some way within a certain
Period, say, three weeks or a month. He believed the
proposed measure would be as fair to the debtor as to the
creditor.
After a conversation in which Mr. Richards, Sir F. Pol-
lock,
the Attorney-General, and Mr. Hawes, took part.
Mr, Alderman COPELAND animadverted in strong
terms on the injury that would be done to the stability of
commercial transactions by the operation of this clause.
Be thought that while so much assistance was afforded to
4 the creditor, some protection should be given to the debtor.
After a few words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
:Mr. Alderman Copeland, Mr. G. F. Young, and the Soli-
' ctor-General,
Mr. GROTE was bound to express his conviction that
this measure was founded on principles of justice and hu-
manity, and not less so on the consideration of the interest
of the commercial portion of the community. At the same
time he thought that sufficient attention had not been paid
by the Attorney-General to the objection raised with re-
ference to the distinction between the trader and non-trader.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that in a former
Bill he had proposed a plan for ensuring a fit jurisdiction in
the cases of both traders and non-traders, but the machi-
nery necessary was found too complicated and expensive.
He thought that the tribunal proposed in the present Bill
ilwould be found fully competent to adjudicate on cases
of both kinds.
Mr. GROTE had not the least intention to offer oppo-
Zion to the clause, but he thought the observation of the
Hon. and Learned Member opposite worthy of attention.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY was satisfied that this Bill had
pot received that calm deliberation which a measure of its
itmiii!ortance demanded. He was opposed to legislating in
Way by instalments, but still, as he approved of some
of the objects which it had in view, he would support it.
.After a few words from the ATTORNEY-GENIRAL, Mr.
div4l4crinan COPELAND, and Sir F. Poeeocx, the House
ided The numbers were
For the clause
Against it
Majority in favour of the clause —49
The clause, empowering the Commissioner to make rules
theorders,' to be approved of by the Lord Chancellor, for
ha
regulatione of their Courts, having been proposed,
P. POLLOCK objected to the clause, on the
grew.
od that it would give the Commissioners a power to
p- °re° a fine on parties treating them with disrespect--a
calliver which he considered not only unnecessary, but un-
ed for. He also thought the rules and orders should
erplilLitde for, and not by, the Commissioners.
:sae ATTORNEY-GENERAL contended that the
esPin'osioners should have the power of making rules and
etheerrijfar the practice of their Courts, as in the case of all
of 6; udges ; but he was willing to admit that the power
tiou—ng bad been given to them on their own representa-
leis, :8 they had stated to him that they could not other-
After arry the law into effect.
some conversation,
Part r.roltn,lC-al. ARDS moved that " the Chairman do re-
Sir cress."
t 'cmght
POLLOCK should support that proposition, as
aidered important that the clause should be con-
The p"' a full House.
use then divided, and the numbers were—
For reporting progress 37
Against it l2
T 6 el Majority •ause was afterwards agreed to. •••
z.esZ(: Chairman
thaA ,tielv writ was moved for the borough of Rochdale, in
Tpiitiice of Mr. Entwisle, deceased.
liaL.se-then adjourned, at One o'clock.