The Sun.
London, England, 1837-02-17 00:00:00

BENEFIT SOCIETIES.

Mr. BARLOW HOY said, that he rose in pursuance of
the notice he had given, to call the attention of the House to
the number of petitions presented from various parts of
the country from Benefit Societies. He thought it would be
of great advantage that the existing laws would be compressed
into one simple Act which, while it was sufficient to prevent
abuse, would not unnecessarily restrain them, or deprive them
of the power of managing their property.--( Hear.) He
had endeavoured in the last Session to obtain a Com-
mittee to inquire into the nature of these Societies
generally, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer requested a
postponement of his motion, on the ground of the important
business which remained to be done at the end of the Ses-
sion, but did not oppose the motion on any other grounds.
He would now ask what more important business could the
House have before it than this, which regarded the interests
of 12,000 or 16,000 Societies, the number of members
of which was about two millions ; and it might be
fairly calculated that the interests of at least 3,000,000 indivi-
duals were involved indirectly in the welfare of those Societies.
Hear.) The members of them wished to set aside, in the
days of their youth and strength, a portion of their earnings
which would assist them in old age and sickness, and thus to.
stand aloof from the assistance of Poor-laws, charitable in-
stitutions, or of alms. He considered therefore, that they
were worthy of encouragement, and instead of being controlled,
and restrained by one barrister, that they should be al-
lowed to frame their own rules, which should be sufficient for
their government, when signed by the magistrates at quarter
sessions, or by a barrister of four or five years standing:
There was a great difference between Benefit Societies and
the Savings Banks---as in the one there was only a contingent
benefit, in which they allowed all the Members to partici-
pate ; but in the other they might draw their money
at a very short notice, with a certain and fixed rate •
of interest. lie hoped, the Noble Lord would afford those
institutions protection, and the power to do what they pleased
with their own. He had no personal object in the part he hadi
taken ; he only wished to aid the' humbler classes of his coun-
trymen in their laudable endeavours to assist each other.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that a Select
Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of the laws
affecting Benefit Societies.
Mr. P. THOMPSON that, feeling the fore% of th

• ..•••••••....r.,
great benefits which these Societies had conferred on the public,
be should entreat the House not to concur in the motion
of the Hon. Member. Within the last 10 or 15 years no less
than four Select Committees had sat for the purpose of inquir-
ing into this subject. The result of the last Committee
was, that his Noble Friend, now a. Member of the other
House, brought in a Bill which was now the law of the
land, and by which those Societies were now regulated.
The Honourable Member had talked about the number of
petitions which had been presented from Benefit So-
cieties, complaining of the law affecting them.—( Hear. )
NOW, since the year 1829, when the law was altered,
there had been only one petition presented from Ireland, five
from Scotland, and about 20 or 25 from England, while the
members of Benefit Societies in the United Kingdom, which
at present existed, did not fall short of 5,000.—( Hear, hear.)
This afforded pretty good ground for believing those Societies
were tolerably well satisfied with the present management.
\Vhat grievance had these Societies really complained of? The
Only thing the Act proposed was, that if they chose to take advan-
tage of certain privileges accorded to them, then it was required
that they should do certain things which the Act enjoined.
They need not do so if they did not choose, but
they must submit to certain regulations, if they
wished to avail themselves of the benefits of the Act.
The Hon. Member ought not to forget the security which the
present system conferred upon the subscribers to the Societies.
T. show how beneficial this law had proved, he would
state that Benefit Societies had nearly doubled, and Savings'
Banks had increased their deposits in the same
proportion since 1829. He objected to a Committee most
strongly, upon the ground that it would create an alarm
ammig the poorer class of society.---( Cries of " Hear.)
Let the Hon. Gentleman at once bring in a Bill, but he at
°nice told him that he (Mr., P. T.) would not consider it an
improvement in the law, and could not give it any support,
though he would not oppose its being brought in.
Colonel WOOD was sorry to hear the determination of the
Right Hon. Gentleman. It was of importance that the poor
should be encouraged to lay up some of their earnings to secure
them an independence for the rest of their lives.
Mr. HUME was sorry that the Right Hon. Gentleman ob-
jected to this Committee. He understood that a pledge had
been given last Session that Government would institute an in-
quiry in this Session. It was peculiarly important that every
restriction upon the full development of this very beneficial
system should be removed, now that the new Poor-law was
beginning to produce such a change in the feelings and views
of the working classes. Hon. Gentlemen were perfectly cor-
rect in stating that the working classes desired alterations to
be made in the existing law. He himself had received thirty
or forty deputations from the labouring classes in various parts,
requesting him to endeavour to bring about alterations in the
Jaw, and had been entrusted by them. with petitions to the
(louse to that effect. No possible harm could result from
the appointment of the Committee, and it might lead to much
Mk!. He should cordially support the motion.
Mr. ING HAM thought the appointment of the Committee
,IYould be attended with the most ruinous result to these Socie-
"(3,and that the grievances complained of did not call for it.
Mr. BAINES thought that the enquiry might be benefi-
eml, inasmuch as it, might be attended with the extension of
these Societies.
Mr. YOUNG deprecated the appointment of the Commit-
tee as wholly uncalled for.
Mr. F. BARING considered that the Committee was pre-
Mature, as sufficient time had not elapsed since the passing of
the Bill to enable• them to make calculations more correct.
Ting in a Bill to effect his objects h
ee,e would vote for its
being referred to a Select Committ thinking that some
advantage might result from the evidence which would then
,
e produced.
Mr. LAWSON said a few words which were inaudible in
the gallery.
Sir G. STRICKL AND opposed the Committee.
Mr. LW &R,T thought the suggestion of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Kilkenny was the best which could be
adopted.
Mr. T. DIINCONIBE said there were very great com-
plaints against the present state of the law for the construction
of Benefit Societies. He had received a letter within the last
two hours, requesting him to support the motion of the Hon.
Member for Southampton. He was assured that the deter-
mination of Government to oppose the motion would occasion
a great disappointment.
Mr. A. TREVOR supported the motion for a Committee.
Mr. FORSTER was bound to say, from the communica-
tions he had with many of the members of Benefit Societies,
that if an alteration in the existing laws were proposed they
Would oppose it.
Mr. 13ROTHERTON said a few words which were corn-
Pletely inaudible.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD stated that the operatives disap-
proved of the present state of the law. He thought it was
most injurious that they were not allowed to invest their
looney in the way they approved of. They ought to be per-
mitted to have different rules suited to different localities.
Mr. BERNAL had received a variety of petitions upon
this subject, and he was prepared to discuss it at some length,
but ref,ained from doing so on account or the evident ill
health of the Speaker—a circumstance that he trusted would
induce the House to bring this debate to a close.—( Hear. )
The SPEAKER assured the House that he did not see
any reason why he should not sit there. Nothing could be so
Painful to him as to cause unnecessarily any obstruction to the
Public business.

Mr. BARLOW HOY replied. He did not bring in a Bill
upon this subject, because the Right Hon. the President of
the Board of Trade had stated it to be his intention to give
to such a Bill every opposition hill's power.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON assured the Hon. Member
Ile must have misunderstood him when he supposed that he
(Mr. Thomson) would oppose any Bill which that Hon. Mem-
ber wished to bring in. He had, indeed,. heard something of
that Hon. Member's plan, which was one to which 'he could
but give his support.
Mr. M. PHILIPS remarked that though there were many
Benefit Societies in Manchester, yet he did not hear from them
40Y complaint against the present state of the law.
The House then divided :

For the Motion
Against it
Majority 76
THE BISHOPS—HOUSE OF LORDS.
CHARLES LUSHINGTON, who was addressing
tha° House upon the return of strangers to the gallery, stated
t if it were the wish of the House, he would postpone the
11"tion of which he had given notice for that evening.—( Loud
rie,B Of " Go on.") He was perfectly aware that his reso-
111'°11 jarred against the long-received prepossessions of many
°a. Members, the sincerity of which he cordially respected;
1,11„ ,ht giving them credit for their conscientious opinions
- "ad a right to expect that his own motives would
'at he • • F reted.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Indeed,
the erp
question was one of paramount importance, and involved
io •
mderations of so grave and momentous a nature, that the
tler,dulgenee of prejudices, at all times to be deprecated, would
utterly displaced on the present occasion, when every man
raid bring to the discussion the coolest reflection. He con-
i,ed, that in preparing himself for such a motion as this, he
Lad Paid but little attention to the journals of the House of
tht;!(bn or of that House of Parliament ; but he stood upon
the effects which their politico-ecclesiastical system
lad upon the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) He
11ght for the best polemical writers upon this subject,
atd
above all, he looked to one authority—to that au-
le,-I°ltY in which there was no error--he referred to that, the
11.4"° of the precedents in which could not be disputed.
° assured the house he was not about to propound
411' homily ; but he assured them that in his ex-
ot that volume, he could find no authority for
the, frequent assertion of the Bishops in this country—for
th,e."' assuming a dignity incompatible, in his opinion, with
k," fulfilment of their sacred functions. Allowance, he
11Lew Was to be made for the altered spirit of the
and the necessary deviation from primitive simpli-
-1-!:Y
but there was nothing to justify te extreme elevation of
ibshops, and their assumption ofh political power ; that
Ili one of their own bishops—Bishop Watson—termed
olue pride of prelacy," interfering with gosrel purity.—.
ea•r• ) In his opinion upon this subject he claimed the con-
Litrenee of numerous pious clergymen belonging to the Esta-
44hed Church, with regard to the commixture in their bishops
I,he ecclesiastical dignity with the secular power, as being
~ ginlY detrimental to their spiritual usefulness.—( Hear.) The
,„
1A,1411"" of Lord Henley was, he believed, well known. He
1-10' recommended the retirement of the Bishops from the
chk's° of Lords. That eminent person, Dr. Knox, a high
"rehnian, whose correspondence with Bishop Jebb must be
known to many Honouroble Members, observed in another
tu.r,
o,!---" The dienities, titles, and emoluments, of our Esta-
Thment obviously constitute as severe a test of virtue as the
end of man could well be tried by ; and that these objects
'l"ister to the bad passions of thousands must be admitted."
"(Hear.) Such were the sentiments of an enlightened clergy-
aer' or the Established Church.—(Heart) In these senti-
„,ilts he was sure that many members of the Established
..t.l.tturch, both lay and clerical, cordially concurred. In a
Ve,Tophlet published a few months ago, entitled " Fundamental
i-ehvurth Reform," the following remarks, which he begged
il° to read, occurred. This tract, he should premise, was
roititte" y'it clergyman who had not announced his name,
.„I,lbigh the finger of fame had pointed at the author. Young,
Co u,°,, liberal, erudite, eloquent, and pious, a hundred. mitres
t" not add to his impressiveness in the pulpit, nor increase
the Christian influence. The writer remarked, speaking of
181)OS---." Some of our bishops are still too wealthy.
uld it be said that their wealth is needed to maintain their
peer as spiritual Peers, it may be replied that their spiritual
fromraFe is worse than their wealth. They ought to retire
,en.,.sarliament, and then their wealth would be no longer
long permit
they will before long. Public opinion
1111hl noti to
permit such a hindrance to their usefulness. Of
irrational practices defended by some and allowed by
•Luries, just because we are so much creatures of habit,
it is one of the most irrational. In esery view of the case
Thoiaat.nisehievous and absurd. It makes the whole bench 9a
into'. Maelstroom, sucking even remote circles of the clergy
the
.ae gulf of worldly ambition. To the bishops themselves
roptation to worldliness must be almost insuperable."
•
'pit n' • • • " Sometimes, by voting
must
re. Ministers against popular opinion (the Rev. Gentleman
tiisgust ter to other times), however conscientiously, they have
,orofes. many. They have increased that disgust by their
oneslonal defence of our Establishment ; but when, except
t 1; _ _ or two illustrious instances, of individual fidelity, have
/1,0 :,).:14ere tided evangelical religion, or taught the House of
Lis ~,,,,a,rt(7
,141se‘1,11 legislation on a reverence' for God and for
1.6, NI hat has been the effect of all this upon the na-
Lc!, It has stamped the Church with an aspect of secularity
the
odr
,rimental to its piritual influence. It has accustomed
.1,11 e lwentious journals to throw unmeasured contempt upon
whole ep. scopal order,
"trAnged tioap from the'irr.lthas made bishops courtiers, it has
clergy ; with the dignity of peers they

have assumed, perhaps unavoidably, a forbidding superiority
over their brethren ; they can never be brotherly...they can
scarcely be paternal. On all accounts, therefore, their retirement
from the House of Lords is much to be desired; and the bishop
who, in his place in Parliament, superior to self-interest and pre-
judice, and the animosity which might be caused in the minds
of a few, should move this removal, would deserve to have
his name enrolled among those of the most distinguished pa-
triots." Such were the sentiments of an enlightened clergy-
man, in the substance of which immense numbers of Church-
men, clerical as well as lay, cordially participated. These
were the observations, he admitted, of an anonymous clergy-
man ; but what said the Rev. Edward Duncombe, rector of
Newton Kyme, in a pamphlet entitled " A Guide to Church
Reform ?" He hoped the House would bear with him, whilst
he read a little more on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) Mr.
Duncombe thus expressed himself—" Pomp, and form, and
absence have supplanted the authoritative powers of respect,
and presence, and affection. Instead of flying to a diocesan
with the dependent love and anxiety of children, many of his
clergy approach him with fear and trembling, enter his palace
and await his coming with nervous apprehension and breath-
less palpitations, and quit it, grateful that the interview is
over." And again—" Our Bishops hold merely their formal
and periodical intercourse with their clergy, are rarely ever
seen, still more rarely known, by the laity of their dioceses."—
" A good and honest Bishop," said a canon residentiary of
St. Paul's, who had lately written a pamphlet commenting on
the acts of the Ecclesiastical Commission (he thanked God
there were many who deserved that character), " ought to
suspect himself and carefully to watch his own heart. He is
all of a sudden elevated from being a tutor, dining at an
early hour with his pupil (and occasionally, it is believed,
on cold meat), to be a Spiritual Lord ; he is dressed in a
magnificent dress, decorated with a title, flattered by chap-
lains, and surrounded by little people looking up for the
things which he has to give away ; and this often happens
to a man who has had no opportunity of seeing the world,
whose parents were in very humble life, and who has given
up all his thoughts to the Frogs of Aristophanes and the
Targum of Onkelos. How is it possiule that such a man
should not lose his head, that he should not swell, that he
should not be guilty of a thousand follies, and worry and
teaze to death (before he recovers his common sense), a
hundred men as good, and as wise, and as able as himself ?"
He was convinced, with Archbishop Leighton, that worldly
titles and distinctions were not conducive to the real re-

spectability of the Church ; and so convinced was that Pre-
late of the truth of this sentiment, that he would not allow
his friends to address him by the title of " Lord Bishop,"
nor was he pleased when other persons so addressed him.
These lauded distinctions had in effect a contrary tendency
to that which was anticipated. If any Hon. Gentleman
doubted, this, let him suppose a number of persons to enter a
provincial cathedral. They might ask " Who is this stately
person, encumbered with robes of white and black, who walks
up the aisle surrounded by the dean, the sub-dean, the canons,
and the prebendaries, the deacons, and the choir of vicars cho-
ral, whilst the organ, which is about to be attuned in melo-
dious praise towards the Creator, pays almost equal homage
to the creature ?" They would naturally inquire who this
pompous dignitary was. They would inquire what was the
style and title of the Lord Bishop of the diocese, from which
he had been absent seven or eight months for the purpose of
attending his duty in Parliament—who had just arrived from
his London mansion to his country palace, and was then about
to mount his throne in the House of God—who was exalted
above all the attending ministers, gazed at by the mul-
titude as a superior being, and almost exempt from the
failings of sinful mortality. Perhaps, in a moment of ab-
straction, the thoughts of that exalted person were wander-
ing all the time to the last vote he had given in the Senate
—a vote to disturb the peace of eight millions of his fellow-
creatures—( Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh")—a vote which
might tend to plunge into desolation and blood a whole
people.—(Loud cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.") At the
same time, while listening to him who treats of his Divine
Master's revelation, he neglects to contrast with them his
own actual position and splendour and inquires not whether
the Bishops of the Church in these times of worldly do-
mination, follow the example of their apostolical prede-
cessors. There might be present the scoffers and the
scorners of all religion, and they would not fail to make
this contrast, and to inquire whether this pomp and parade
was such as persons in that station ought to exhibit. There
might be present, also, reflecting persons, who would not fail
to draw a similar contrast. He would read the words of
a right reverend dignitary, Dr. Jebb, of Limerick, on this
subject, a most eminent man, who was beloved by everybody :
" This is the first day I was able to set apart for being en-
throned in the cathedral of Limerick. On many accounts,
political, moral, and religious, I do not like the reducing this,
which ought to be a solemnity, into an unimpressive form ;
matters, therefore, were so arranged that the chapter, headed
by the dean, met me at the cathedral door, a short time before
the hour of daily service, which immediately followed the act
of enthronement, and thus one had something more and better
than a mere legal and official ceremony." Thus it appears that,
in the opinion of this good Bishop, he who so extolled the hu-
mility of that " human seraph" Archbishop Leighton, political
ends were to be promoted and religion benefitted by his unu-
sually ceremonious enthronement. The following year he left
his diocese in the month of January, and did not return to it
till September. The exercise of their baronial duties greatly in-
terfered with the clerical offices of Bishops ; it was impossible
that a Bishop could attend to the duties of his diocese and to
his duties as a Member of the Legislature at the same time.
But the evil was rendered still greater, as it happened that it
was almost always found that the bench of Bishops opposed
every measure of a liberal tendency, or which enlisted on its
side the feelings of the people ; that, in fact, they invariably
opposed every proposition that had for its object the extension
of liberty, civil or religions.—( Hear, hear, and cries of
" No.") It was not the custom of any other Protestant clergy
to mix up baronial and ecclesiastical privileges. In the Church
of Scotland there was no union of civil and ecclesiastical
offices; and as an instance of the rigour with which this prin-
ciple was enforced, he might mention that Lord Belhaven was
compelled to give up the office of elder when he undertook the
office of Lord High Commissioner of the General Assembly.
Neither was the English form of church government per-
mitted in Denmark, Sweden, or the United States, or
amongst the Protestant Bishops of Germany. The Esta-
blished Church in England was the only Church, except the
Roman Catholic Church, which suffered the heads of the
Church to intermeddle in political affairs. But in some
Roman Catholic countries the Bishops were prevented en-
tirely from interfering in political affairs, and the conse-
quence was that they enjoyed the reverence and respect of
ail classes and parties in the country. If the Bishops of the
Church of England followed this example, they would meet
with the same reverence and respect.—(Hear, hear.) Let
them remain in their dioceses, let them promote education, let
them exalt their clergy, and apply themselves devotedly to
those duties which by the most serious pledge they were bound
to do.—( Hear,hear. ) They would then no longer be assailed ;
they would meet their reward in the affection and reverence of
a whole people. When he used the expression of " exalting
the clergy," lie meant it in a very different sense from that in
which it had been lately used in the address of a certain Pre-
late at an ordination. The charge to which he alluded com-
prised forty-eight octavo pages, forty-one of which were occu-
pied in a political discussion of certain Acts of Parliament
passed last session, one of which especially, this political Pre-
late described as " degrading and corrupting," as " wholly un-
necessary," as " pregnant with the most disastrous consequences
to the Church of England," as replete with danger and mis-
chief ; and he charges the members of the Ecclesiastical
Commission with " a proneness to extend their own powers,
a mischievous latitude and laxity in construing the
terms in which their trust is confided to them ; a vio-
lation, in short, of both the letter and the spirit of the commis-
sion under which they act." He would ask whether charges of
this description were calculated to increase the respect of the
people for the Established Church ? Aiid let it be remembered
that the acts thus described, thus commented upon, received
the sanction of his Majesty, who was not only the political, but
the spiritual head of the Church. He was not surprised, when
the heads of the Church thus took the lead, that the inferior
clergy should follow the example of their superiors, and be-
come notorious, from the dean down to the lowest curate, for
their addiction to politics. There could not be a better proof of
this than the fact that Dr. Hampden—a most eminent, learned,
and pious man—was made the victim of clerical vengeance, be-
cause lie dared to advocate the admission of Dissenters to the
University. A political bias extended through the whole
of the clergy, from the highest to the lowest. In the case
of Dr. Hampden, the clergy of the University of Ox-
ford and the Vied Chancellor objected to the appoint-
ment, although it was sanctioned by his Majesty ; and
they bad seen many instances lately in which the clergy
of the Established Church had shown disrespect to his Ma-
jesty's representative. The people saw these things, and saw
them with regret ; and they attributed them in a great mea-
sure, if not entirely, to the political character given to the
Church by the admission of Bishops into the House of Lords.
The Hon. Member concluded by moving the following resolu-
tion :—" That it is the opinion of this House that the sitting
of the Bishops in Parliament is unfavourable in its operation
to the general interests of the Christian religion in this coun-
try, and tends to alienate the affections of the people from
the Established Church."

Mr. HAVE S rose to second the motion ; he did so most
cordially, under the conviction that, by doing so, he was
giving the best support to the religious character of the
Established Church, and at the same time acting upon the
soundest principles of religious liberty. It was, in his
opinion, contrary to the doctrines of religious liberty, that
any one sect or denomination of Christians should possess po-
litical powers which others did not enjoy. Those who had
advocated the Test and Corporation Acts, and the measure
of Catholic Emancipation, but who now opposed Govern-
ment, ought to have known that the vantage ground which
the friends of religious liberty had thereby obtained would be
made the most of on every occasion in their power. They
should not be surprised, therefore, at the motion which was
now made. Lord Henley had stated in his pamphlet on the
subject of Church Reform, that the strength of the Church
should rest in the heart and good esteem of the people, and
ought not to be polluted by politics. It was Impossible,
therefore, as well as injurious to the State, for the Church to
mingle in politics. If any argument were wanted to prove
this, he would point to the Church of England, and ask what
had it gained by its political supporters ? And then to the
Church of Scotland, and ask whether she was not every way
as secure as the Church of England, although she had no
Parliamentary privileges ? Look at the Dissenters of Eng-
land also—was there any lack of defenders for their rights ?
Not at all.—(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that if the
Church of England left her defence in the hands of laymen,
instead of taking it into her own hands, it would be much
better for her.

Mr. HUME and Lord J. RUSSELL rose together : the
former, however, persevered in the midst of general cries for
the latter. He presumed that the arguments used by the Hon.