The Sun.
London, England, 1837-03-04 00:00:00

Legislature, the moment that the present Incumbent's inte-
rest ceases every thing will come under the provisions of the Bill.
Sir, I believe the funds which the Bill provides will be
more than adequate for all the purposes. I have told the
House that it is our intention, in the Bill we are about to in-
troduce, that the surplus, over and above paying the fines to
the Bishops and Ecclesiastics, and after paying, in addition to
that, the amount of Church-rates, there will be a reserve fund,
the income of which will be applicable to the endowment of
small livings.—( Cheers. ) I wish to show that in this
new arrangement, whilst we seek to make provision
for the Church, we wish also to make provision for
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the proposition of Lord Spencer, that any surplus should
be applied for the purposes of the endowment of small livings.
Then with a view to the application of parish estates. I have
already stated that in a great number of parishes considerable
funds exist applicable to the endowment of Churches. They
ought to be brought under the consideration of those who
have to administer the funds provided for Church-rates.
Those funds we propose to place under the control
of the Commissioners.—( Hear, hear.) I have already
stated that the Commissioners hold their Commission
for the purpose of the management of Church property ; but
they will also be charged with the duty of paying over a sum of
250,0001. to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for the purpose
of the maintenance of the Church. That will be one of the
obligations which the Commissioners will have to perform. A
further source of income which would come under the notice
of these Commissioners would be the pew rents.—( Hear,
hear.) Where pew rents were received, and ought to be re-
ceived, and were justly received, they ought to be applied
for the purposes of the endowment of the Church.--( Hear,
hear, hear.) That is the case already in the parish of
St. James, where the pew-rents amount to no less a sum than
1,1001. a year. Consequently there the Church-rates are
applied for the purposes of the Clergy. In many other parishes
such is also the case. I propose, therefore, to put the manage-
ment of pew-rents under the controul of a Committee of
the pew-renters themselves, and, finally, of the Commissioners.
I do so, however, upon the understanding that free seats for the
poor are to be provided upon a far more liberal scale than at pre-
sent. I say that gentlemen who have been taking notes on the
subject of pew-rents may or may not quarrel with me on
this subject—they may quarrel with me on the ground that
it is unjust to make the wealthy contribute by paying for
the pews, but they cannot quarrel with me for providing
for the poor ; and it is the essence of our Bill that a pro-
vision for the accommodation of the poor shall be made
larger than that which now exists under the present law.
—( Hear.) It is that the managers arid churchwardens,
with the consent of the Bishops, shall leave one-
fifth part of the free seats for the poor, if the same have
been usually let; one-third if the churches have been built
under Church Building Acts, or one half of the pews have not
been let before. Sir, as I said at the outset, it was alleged
that we were disposed to rob the poor of their rights. Now
I think that the House will be satisfied that that was not a
true accusation. I pressed this because there is no feeling
that would more easily excite, and more justly, if true, than
an impression that we were about to deprive the poor of their
rights.—( Hear, hear.) I say that the provision I have
proposed for free sittings is a terser provision than that
which exists at present, and if Gentlemen only differ with me
upon that, and propose to have a greater extension of accom-
modation for the poor, that is a point upon which we shall not
be disposed to quarrel with them. They will find that we
shall be disposed to go as far in that respect as they like.
But it is proposed by the Bill lam about to introduce, as
it was proposed by Lord Spencer, that the whole of the
present system of introduction and swearing-in of
churchwardens should be abolished. I cannot conceive how
any benefit can be derived from the swearing-in of church-
wardens, in the way in which it has been carried on before
justices of the peace, or otherwise; and by this alteration
180,000/. will be saved.—( Hear, hear.) lam now coming
to a very important point. There has been a very large debt
contracted on the securities of Church-rates. Both public
and private money to a very great extent has been advanced
upon them ; but I should say, as one most friendly to the abo-
lition of Church-rates—l should say for myself, as one con-
vinced of the necessity of upholding the principles of the Es-
tablished Church— ( Hear, hear)—that no one can con-
tend that a debt contracted under the ordinary law of
the land—under Acts of Parliament—should be in any, the
slightest degree, affected or impaired in its security, by reason
of the alteration I make in this law. Well, then, Sir, I propose
that the security which has been given should put an end to the
Church-rates absolutely for the future ; that the whole amount
of debt which has already been incurred should be levied
as parochial rates for the payment of that debt.—( Hear, and
a laugh.) Why it is not just that we should take the property
from the engagements it is already subject to ; but it is right
that those engagements should still be made good out of the
funds, and by the persons who have entered into that engage-
ment. I would not bring forward a proposition founded on
any other principle. I would never bring forward a proposi-
tion which I believed to be unjust, or which contained in itself
the elements of injustice; and it would be unjust to tranfer
on one man's shoulders a debt which had been contracted
by another. The parties who have contracted this debt are
bound to pay the debt. Now, Sir, I wish to state, for the
satisfaction of gentlemen, that out of the income of the Arch-
bishops and Bishops, and other ecclesiastical functionaries,
which amounts to 541,0001., I only intend to meddle, directly
or indirectly, with that portion which is represented by fines,
and which amounts to 260,0001. Ido not mean to diminish
in any degree the receipts on the part of any one Arch-
bishop, Bishop, Prebend, Archdeacon, Dean, or Canon, but
I mean simply to obtain the surplus in the way I have
described. I shall endeavour, as shortly as possible, to
make a statement to the House, which will illustrate this
proposition—it is rather a complicated matter. But I shall
endeavour to show that the sum of 250,000/. can be obtained
out of an altered system of Church lands. In the first place,
my authority, and I like to name it when I have an authority,
is a gentleman for whom I have a great respect and regard,
and to whom I owe great obligations—l mean Mr. Finlayson
—a gentleman whose authority will not be objected to on the
other side, because when Hon. Gentlemen wished to oppose
us on the subject of the Irish Church Bill, the authority of
Mr. Finlayson was all and every thing.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
These calculations were laid upon the table of the House,
and it was proved beyond doubt that our proposition
was indefensible, because Mr. Finlayson had argued so and so.
He, then, is the authority to which I now appeal, and as the
question is rather an abstruse one, I shall not enter into much
detail ; but as I intend to show by it that this sum can be ob-
tained out of an improved system of managing the Church
lands, those who wish to oppose or to support. my plan, will
give me their attention. I shall come to the result without
going threugh the calculations. Two points were submitted
to Mr. Finlayson—the one was, that the average subsisting
term of the Church leases, taking the leases for lives and the
leases for years together—that the average subsisting term is
twenty-four years; next, that the average rate of interest al-
lowed upon renewals is 7 per cent. I may observe, that both
the one and the other of these are taken within the mark,
and I pledge myself that the fullest investigation would prove
the facts to be as I state them. The two points on which I
rest are these—that the average of the leases, taking the
leases for years and the leases for life together, is 24 years ;
and the average rate of interest allowed upon renewals is
7 per cent The average amount of fines, as now received, tak-
ing together the leases from Bishops, Deans, Chapters, and
Prebendaries is 260,631/. Now, I find upon calculation, and
I am satisfied that the closest investigation would disclose the
same facts, that such is the actual value of the rental of the
Church. Thus working it out, I shall have a perpetual an-
nuity of 261,0001., which will represent the present rental ot'
property 1,323,000/. ; that is the actual rental of the property,
and I have the authority of Mr. Finlayson bearing me out in
this (although I have no doubt that I am within the mark),
that I shall have sufficient,' taking it at that mark.---( Hear.)
Now, Sir, I propose to convert these perpetual annuities into
an annuity of possession from the present time, and that is
altogether a matter of arithmetic. The sum which I shall
obtain altogether is 561,0001., for the perpetuity of 1,300,0001.
Well, Sir, if the fines revert, and if by the reversion of
the value of the property of the Church, you con-
vert it to a perpetual annuity of 561,0001., and
deduct from it the amount 1 have alluded to, it will leave an
amount of 265,000/. surplus, which I intend to apply to the
payment of the charges now defrayed by Church-rates—
(hear)—but it may be asked how the sum is to be provided ?
—by the sale of the reversion to the tenant—but it may then
be asked, will the tenants buy ?—I consider they would.
Let me entreat the leaseholders to consider the proposition I
make. I propose to them that for four per cent, to have
their leases converted, subject to the rental into a perpetuity.
[The Right Hon. Gentleman here went into a calculation to
show that by the plan proposed, the value of Church leases
and of Church property, if brought into the market, would be
considerably increased] and, continued—l have it from the best
authority that the highest value of Church property is at pre-
sent at an average of twenty-one years' purchase. I believe
that is too much, but by the proposition I now make
they would be raised to the value of thirty years' rental.
If I am asked why I have fixed upon this rate of purchase I
tell you that I find that the Legislature has acquiesced in this
rate. An Act was /passed in 1827, at the instance of the
Bishop of Bath and Wells, to enable him to sell the reversion
of an estate, and it was enacted that it should be sold at the
rate of twenty-five years' purchase. It therefore cannot be
said that I am doing any injustice to the Bishops or the lessees
in taking this scale. lam taking a scale which has been
sanctioned by King, Lords, and Commons.—( Hear, hear.)
I may be asked upon what authority I consider seven per
cent. should be allowed on church leases. I will an-
swer this question by reading an extract from a publication
of the Rev. Sidney Smith on this subject. [The Right Hon.
Gentleman, after reading the extract, which went to support
the proposition laid down, proceeded as follows] Now, Sir, I
have stated that the proposition which I have made is
not without a precedent acquiesced in by the Legisla-
ture—that precedent is with respect to the Crown Lands.
Let it not be said that we are proposing any thing with respect
to the Church lands which has not a precedent. There is not
one principle in our Bill but what has already been acted upon.
In 1794, the case of the Crown lands was brought under the
consideration of Parliament. A Report on the subject was
made by the Surveyor-General of the Woods and Fo-
rests in the year 1797, which Report stated, as we
do now with regard to the Church lands that the Crown lands
were greatly mismanaged—that there was a great want of
improvement in them in consequence of the system under
which they were let. A proposition was made that the whole
of the leases should be allotted to run out—that they should be
re-leased, a preference being given to the lessees in possession
of one-eighth in consideration of their tenant rights. Two
men, whose names would carry great weight, attended at the
Treasury when this Report was under consideration--
there were four Lords present—but he need only mention
the names of Mr. Pitt and the present Lord Wellesley.
So far from having any doubt as to the policy of carrying into
effect the recommendations of Mr. Fordyce, the Surveyor-