The Sun.
London, England, 1837-05-24 00:00:00

hers of the Church, would be at least 6001. a year. In Wake
the average was admitted to be 2851; and if half the number
.1f benefices were done away with the amount would be 570/.
At all events if this reduction took plate they could give
each Clergyman 500/. a-year, and have a surplus of 480,0001.
to appropriate to Church purposes. Was it not, therefore, a
shame for so enormously wealthy a body, to.
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diet House in the character of -
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also ees- _ . - - “is'llglttnis S And kO.s. it. WA
w-wetra.r inKka'S'At .'f!::n 4ivir , pit-i 4 to iiSCsiiote a
aetset;:ay i'p'to tl'ite"extt let of ,'their ,st4.lth ?—( Ise sr, hear, hear. )
The first thiag the `CnUieln of England should do in order to
stand well with the country was, to take their hands °et of
other people's pockets. This sentiment
,wag well eaktil'eo-
- the Right Hen,,,Merehet f-!'r TainSvorth, who knew much
better then tl4 iaan in that House how to express himself on
points of this nature, but when he (Mr. Buller) was on that
(the Opposition) side of the House, end.when the Right lien'.
Baronet had not that late, ininerlte behind kiln, l': self', with
rcgtst to the qu'estien of Irish 1/4"),ger'S:hwisies, it would be for
the interest Of the 'Cras\eci to abandon them altogether, for it
was 1),,t W`als while, for the amount, to keep alive,the hdstl-
, lily which existed towards the churelr. Was it then worth
while for the insignifieart slltn of threepence per head, as it
hed been tet.'.ll',S'Aed by one of the Right lion. Baronet's sup-
rzii-erF, to keep up this hostility to the Church in Rnglend
—( Hear, hear.) But then Hon. Gentlemen oh the other iidd
had attempted to mislead the House by arguing that ChUrch-
, rites were property, and that the smite resistance might be
made against tithes if it was' found successful in the case of
Churcirsredea. Now, Church-rates were not preaert.vt but it
f tax. The owners of property could net be henctitted by the
abolition of tithes, bet it WaS their interest to diminish the
amount of Pekoe alrecting property. He begged Hon. t,lentle-
men lo consider the predicament in which they plaieed the
Church by the course they were persuirtee They would have
not oily the Dissenters but Chtir'ehnien against them ; and he
thought they Would find few of the latter to thank them fur
allowing the. Osurches to tumble about their earse and for
imposing on thent a new tax to re-lust; le! the ruined edi-
fices. He could not help thinking that the opponents of
this measure had More the interests of their party at heart
thee. the interests of the Church ; but even en this ground
they would find themseleei mistaken. —( Hear, hear. )
Mr. STUART WORTLEY was glad that ho followed
the Hen, Member for Liskeard, because he had divested the
question of the mystery in which it appeared to be enveloped;
fur, if he had understood his speech rightly, he had avowed
himself a plain, open, and Undisguised enemy of the Church
Establishencitt..-se(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Was lie not an
undisguised enemy when he said of the said it should take its
hands out of other people's pockets? This was the language
of the Hon. Gentleman, and no one could infer from it that he
at least was friendly to the Church.---(l4ear, hear.) He could
net support the amendment of the lion. Member for St. An-
drew's, although one point he fully agreed with him, namely,
that the means of religious instruction should be increased.
, He, however, doubted many of the facts stated by the Hon.
Member for Liskeard, and more particularly his statement with
regard to the condition of the Churches in the town which lie
represented. He agreed with him in thinking that the regu-
lations respecting pews ought to undergo revision, and that,
under the present system, there was not sufficient accommo-
dation reserved for the poor.__( Hear.) But when his Learned
Friend stated that there were too many clergymen in proportion
to the population he was at a loss to conceive on what data he had
formed that opinion. He admitted that curates were want-
ihg, but he said they should be paid out of the incomes of the
Bishops. Was not this, however, an argument against Epis-
copacy, and would the Noble Lord, and those who sat on the
same benches with him, sanction this doctrine of his Hon. and
Learned Friend ?—( Hear, hear.) His firm belief was that
there were many amongst the Dissenters who entertained the
most liberal and enlightened views with regard to the Church
of England. He fully admitted that the present law of
Church-rates was extremely unsatisfactory, and he had often
deeply to deplore the dissensions and bickerings to which it
had given rise.—( Hear, hear.) Feeling as he did that some
change was necessary, and that it was of the most paramount
importance that the question should be speedily and satisfacto-
rily adjusted, it was with the utmost reluctance he felt himself
obliged to resist the present measure. He would show to the
House that some Bills were prepared in 1835 by members of
the present Government, by which it was proposed to remedy
all the grievances of which the Dissenters complained of. He
would show it by the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site ( Sir J. C. llobliouse), on his return for Nottingham, as
reported in the Morning Chronicle of January 7, 1835. The
Right Hon. Gentleman was reported to have sail that the
Government of which he had formed a part was prepared,
before the late dissolution, with " a measure of full relief
for all practical grievances under which Dissenters la-
boured." This, of course, must have included the Church-
rates ; and the Right Hon. Baronet added, according to
the report in the Chronicle, that " he was one of a section
in the Cabinet to suborn the preparation of those Bills had
been entrusted, and he had them i ow at home."—(Cheers.)
Why had not those Bills which were to prove so satisfactory
been brought in ?—( Hear, hear.) Had they been delayed for
the purpose of ascertaining the wishes and humouring the
followers of Ministers? If- that were so it was one of the
chief causes which raised the present ill feeling towards
the Church, for Ministers by not bringing forward those de-
cisive measures—by allowing the adjustment of the question to
be so long in abeyance—had raised a spirit which would not
be satisfied with anything short of the total subversion of the
Church.—(Cheers.) Ministers knew that the revenues of
the Church were barely sufficient to minister to its uses.
This was admitted, and therefore it was their duty to settle
as early as possible every question connected with those
revenues. The truth was, that the Opposition side of the
House was misled by the statement made in 1835 with
respect to the intention which was then said to exist of reme-
dying fully all the grievances complained of by the Dissenters.
—( Hear.) Whilst he accused Ministers of increasing the dif-
ficulties with wlech this question was surrounded, he did not
mean to deny that there were many and great difficulties in-
herent in it, and that its adjustment would be a matter of the
greatest utility.—( Ministerial cheers.) He, however, did not
think that the mode proposed by Ministers was the one which
would insure its proper adjustment. He had carefully read the
pamphlet written by the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General
upon this subject, but could not concur with him in opinion
that the Church-rate was one the collection of which could not
be enforced. He fully concurred, in this respect, in what had
been urged last night by the Hon. Member for Bridport. A
distinction had now been made with regard to the law as re-
garded Church-rates between England and Scotland ; but he
found betvveers the two a curious coincidence. The latter, by
the law of Scotland, was appropriated to the maintenance of
the poor, of the clergy, and of the fabric of the Church. The
rule, however, was one arising out of the Roman Canons, which
were not adopted by the Church of England unless they were
engrafted on the common law ; and that these had been so en-
grafted, was a matter of extreme doubt. The law of Scotland,
by a St ttute of .Vlary, required one-third of the rate to be paid
by the clergy, and two-thirds by the parishioners ; but in Scot-
land the construction of the word parishioners meant the land-
lords. The parishioners in England meant all the inhabitants.
If the opinion of the Attorney-General was right, why was he
not supported by the other law authorities ?—( Hear.) It was
true he had the support of one of his colleagues in office, but it
was given in a strange manner—( Hear)—for he admitted that
parishioners might be sued individually ;or the amount of the
rate when it was made by the Chu chwardens, but he, at the
seine time argued that this mode was so cumbrous and incon-
venient as to do away altogether with the right.—(Hear.)
Now, this was the state of the law as respected the enforce-
ment of building bridges before the time of Henry the VIII.,
and yet the tight of enforcement was not done away with.
The Highway Act had the same difficulties to contend with,
and yet the enforcement of its provisions was not found in-
convenient or cumbrous.—(Cheers.) If the Church-rates
now paid were to be remitted, and to go into the pockets of
those who paid them, a transfer would be made from the people
cf funds peculiarly and immemoriably appropriated for their
use. He would not then enter into the question as to how
private rights would-be affected by the proposed measure, but
he knew of one instance in which it would operate with great
severity. Another objection to the proposed measure was,
that if the principle upon which it was founded were to be
carried thoroughly out it would prevent the making of public
grants to all other Churches. The amount thus granted
at present, as appeared from the miscellaneous estimates,.
was 37,966/. For his own part he was elways'glad to see
religious instruction disseminated. He was rejoiced to see
the Dissenters engaged in such a work, and he would be
happy to afford tl.em every assistance in his power.—
( Hear, hear.) He held in his hand a recommendation
from Australia, to give to the Catholic Clergyman there 500/.
In Australia the Roman Catholics. did not recognise the
scruples which were expressed at the other side, for they
hailed the coming amongst them of a Protestant Bishop to
assist in the dissemination of Christianity. In Van Diemen's
Lend a grant of 2001. was given by Government to the Roman
Catholic Clergyman. This was in the true spirit of Chris-
tianity.
Mr. F. BUXTON said, there were two clauses in the mo-
. _

tiers of his Hon. Friend the Member for St. Andrew's which
he (Mr. F. Buxton) should support ; the one for raising cer-
tain moneys, and the other for their application to the religious
destitution of the people. In one of these the Hon. Member
would have the co-operation of the side of the House on which
he (Mr. F. Buxton) sat ; in the other he would have the
support of the opposite side. He (Mr. F. Buxton) besought
the Right Honourable Chancellor of the Exchequer not to
suppose for a moment that he had changed a single portion of
his opinions on. the subject of Church-rates. The country was
under a great obligation to that Right Honourable Gentleman
for having discovered the fund in question.—( Laughter.)
Ht; would now turn to the most difficult part of the subject.
He was not of opinion that he could convince the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, but he would confess he should be rather
surprised, after hearing the sentiments of the Hon. Gentle-
met, on the other side of the House, if the motion of his Hon.
Friend did not receive their support. What was the never-
failing topic of their speeches, particularly of the speech of
the Right Honourable Baronet opposite on a former occasion ?
The religious destitution of the people. Nay, there was a
positive pledge given on that occasion by the Right Hon.
Member for Cambridge, who said that funds might be
raised from the Church for the purposes of the religious
instruction of the poor, without injuring in the slightest de-
gree its property.
Mr. GOUL BURN said he had never made such a speech.
Mr. F. BUXTON said his argument then .fell to the
ground, as he thought he read the Right Hon. Member had
made such observations. At all events lie was quite sure
that all Hon. Gentlemen who spoke on that side of the
House had agreed that, if there was any surplus of Church
property, it should be applied to the relief of the religious in-
stitutions of the people.—( Hear, hear.) TLat was the object
of the motion of his Hon. Friend.

Sir J. GRAHAM should express his regret that all poli-
tical subjects of paramount importance which now came before
Parliament were usually mingled with the higher and more