The Sun.
London, England, 1839-02-22 00:00:00

he wished for changes, let him propose theta with regard
to all Ambassadors and Governors generally, and not throw
out impntations against the Earl of Durham that he had
incurted more expenses than other persons.—(Cheers.)
Whether Lord Durham's appointment was a right one or
an improper o'nes this was not the occasion for the Hon.
and Gallant Member to discuss. If he would look to the
way in which persons were employed and paid, he Would
be sorry to persist in such an attack. With regard to
asking for the amount of the expenses attending the ap-
pointment, lie did not complain, and should be prepared
to justify them.—( Cheers.)
Colonel SIBTHORP—The Noble Lord has told me
about a Want of common sense. He is the last man I
should take any instructions from with regard to that—
( Laughter)—and any such imputations on the part of that
Noble Lord I shall treat with all that 'sovereign cont.. mpt
which the rules of the House will allow me to express.—
( Laughter.) It is unbecoming in any Member of the Go-
vernment, or any Member of this House, to impute it to
me ; and the Noble Lord would have taken good care net
to have made that observation out of the House.--( Loud
cries of " Order.")
The SPEAKER—The lion. and Gallant Member
must perceive that that is not a proper expression—
(Cheers)—and that he ought to retract it.
Colonel SIBT HO RP—I shall be perfectly ready ;Put
at the same time lam entitled to ask the Noble Lord to
retract that expression. The Noble Lord imputed to me
want of common sense—( Loud laughter, and cries of
" No")—I so understood the Noble Lord.
The SPEAKER—What I object to is the last expres-
sion of the Gallant Officer, which is that the Noble Lord
will not venture to make that observation out of the House.
When I heard such an expression as that, it was impera-
tive on me to interfere.—( Cheers.)
Col. SIBTHORPE—I am entitled to some explana-
tion from the Noble Lord opposite with regard to that ob-
servation relative to myself. If it had not been for that,
no such observation would have fallen from me. I deny
that I cast any direct imputation upon the Noble Earl. I
spoke of him as a public man, and I am entitled to free-
dom of speech in this House in questioning the conduct of
any public man, but it is not right that the Noble Lord
should impute to any Member of this House a want of com-
mon sense.—( Loud laughter.)
The SPEAK ER—I think the Gallant Officer must
be mistaken. What I understood the Noble Lnr.i to say
was this, that the motion which the Gallant Officer has
made is not the same motion as appeared on the
printed vctes, -and that the motion as it appeared
in the votes was not consistent with common sense or good
grammar.—( Cheers and laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
quite ready to agree to any returns connected with the
public service, but he did not think the House wou!cl ac-
company the Hon. Gentleman in saying that any distinc-
tion ought to be made between the expenses of this corn
mission and any other.—( Cheers.) If the Hon. and
Gallant Member would move in the usual manner for the
usual accounts, they would be laid before the House with-
out disguise, restriction, or reserve. However he might
differ with the Gallant Colonel on this question of Cana-
dian politics, he could not but consider it improper to raise
it upon the question of the number of corks drawn or
trumpery expenses incurred by this appointment. He should
therefore moved as an amendment, for an account of the
expenses incurred by the mission of the Earl of Durham,
as Lord High Commissioner and Governor of Canada, dis-
tinguishing the salaries paid, and all the expenses incur
red in the passage of Lord Durham and his suite.
Colonel SIBTHO RP said it was important for the
House to know how far these returns would contain what
he wished to have, and it was ridiculous to say that he had
amended his return. Ho was not going to take the
returns moved for by the Government, for he had the
strongest suspicion of anything that emanated from them.
He could not consent to any returns of that kind.
The Right Hon. Gentleman would perhaps be verb glad
that many returns of that sort should not be made. How-
ever be should have his return or no return at all.—
( Great laueliter.) If it was negatived he would put in
another. lie certainly would not have the Right Hon.
Gentleman's return shuffled in upon his, more especially
as he was rather attacking the Right Hon. Gentleman than
the Earl of Durham. He had never been indebted to her
Majesty's present Ministers for anything, and they were
the last set of men he would ever ask to teach him any-
thing.
Mr. H. El IND E did not attach much importance to the
return in either shape, but Le would be glad to know from
the Right Hon. Gentleman what difficulty there could be
in furnishing the return.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER be-
lieved that the return he had made would comprehend all
the Honourable and Gallant Member required. He had
refused nothing which had been granted with respect
any similar mission, and he did not think it right to deviate
from the usual course on the present occasion. If any fault
was found with the return or any objection raised to it, then
it would be competent for the Hon. Member to brirg the
subject before the House. Ha had given neither more nor
less than had been granted in similar cases. lie was ready,
if' the return was found incomplete, to give every possible
information in his power.
Lord DUNGANNON suggested to his Hon. and Gal-
lant Friend to accede to the amendment. Athough he did
not think the Noble Earl's mission should be placed upon
a par with others, he hoped the present return would be
found satisfactory, and if not, it was competent to his Hon.
Friend to bring the question again before the House.
Colonel SI BTH 0R P would not press his motion, al-
though he would repeat be had no faith whatever in the re-
turn of the Right Hon. Gent. opposite.
The motion was then withdrawn, and the amended re-
turn agreed to.
CHARITABLE COMMISSIONS (IRELAND).
Mr. BARRON bad given notice of a motion -for leave
V) bring in a Bill for the appointment of Charitable Com-
missioners in Ireland ; but as he understood the subject
had been taken up by her Majesty's Government, he would
beg leave to withdraw it.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS (IRELAND).
The Hose Mesona then proceeded to bring forward his
motion for a Bill to consolidate and reform the Ecclesi-
astical Courts in Ireland. He read the following extract
from the Report of some Irish Commission :—" Our at-
tention has been directed in a peculiar manner to the offi-
cial and professional services connected with these Eccle-
siastical Courts. The general impression is that the ex-
pense of the proceedings in the different ecclesiastical
jurisdictions, compared with the superior Courts of
Common Law, is unreasonable, and that this im.
pression, as applied to the Prerogative Court, is in
great measure well founded, the evidence sufficiently
proves. These evils may perhaps partly be attributed to
the abuses of official practice, and the excesses in official
and professional charges; but there are other causes in-
herent in the very form and constitution of the jurisdiction
itself, to which they must primarily be attributed. The
proceedings are conducted on the principles of the civil
law, and therefore enhance the expense. The length of
the pleadings, the multiplicity of interrogatories, the mode
of examination—frequently inefficient in eliciting the truth—
tend to an accumulati. n of expense from which the pro-
ceedings at Common Law arc exempt. We feel
ourselves warranted in laying these statements before
the Legislature to show how much the subject is en-
titled to their serious attention." The Hon. Member
said his attention had for three years been directed to this
question, and he had procured the appointment of a Com-
mittee of that House upon it last session. That Com-
mittee, of which he, was the Chairman, had found the ex-
pense and delay of the proceedings in these Courts moat
oppressive ; and consistently with the recommendations
of the Committee, and with the suggestions of the Com-
missioners, that Bill had been prepared (by the highest
legal authorities), which he now begged leave to introduce.
The Bill was similar in its provisions to the measure which
had been brought in by the Learned Member for the Tower
Hamlets (Dr. Lushington) in regard to the Ecclesiastical
Courts of England. The object of its enactment was first, to
consolidate into one court all the minor teclesiastical courts
in Ireland, which were at present established in every
diocese in that country. Since the law upon tithes had
been altered in Ireland, these courts had none of that tithe
business, which formerly was their principal occupation, so
that now they were utterly useless. The Judges in those
courts were clergvmen,wbo had no knowledge of the law, and
theßill would enact that there should be but one ecclesiasti-
cal Court in Ireland—the Prerogative Court of Dublin.
The Supreme Judge in that Court would be appointed by
the Crown, as the Judges of this country were. The
Judge would have the power of framing rules for the regu.
lation of the Court, and also to call in the aid of a jury
to try matters of fact. He trusted that the Primate of Ire-
land would not give any opposition to the Bill which he
now proposed to bring in.
Lord MORPETH would not offer any obstacle to the
Bill, after the great pains that had been bestowed upon it
by his Hon. Friend. He trusted that its details would
receive great attention, not only from the House, but the
Hon. Members for Cashel and Clonmel. He hoped that
his Friend would not press on the subsequent stages of the
Bill until the House had had a full opportunity of making
itself acquainted with the details of the measure.
Mr. LE FRO Y did not anticipate that the Noble Lord
would have given his assent to the Bill, considering the
object it had in view. What was that object ? Why,
not only to make a revolution in the whole course of
proceedings in the Ecclesiastical Courts of Ireland, but to
rob of his right of patronage the head of the Church of
that country. He thought, if such a Bill was to be intro-
duced, it ought to have been brought forward by her Ma-
jesty's Government. He should, therefore, enter his pro-
test against the measure, and be felt convinced that the
end of the matter would be, that her Majesty's Government
would themselves feel compelled, at a future stage, to
give their determined opposition to the measure.

Dr. STOCK supported the Bill, considering that i
would be of essential service in Ireland.

Dr. LUSHINGTON did not think that his Hon. and
Learned Friend opposite exactly apprehended all the cir-
cumstances of the case. He did not mean to enter into a
particular relation of all the facts connected with the Etig-
lish Eecclesiastical Commission. He would merely re-
mind the House that that Commission had been ap-
pointed by the Duke of Wellington, in 1828. That
referred to bad received the sanction of the successive Ali,
nistries ; had been acceded to by many Bishops and other
high ecclesiastical authorities. That no important difference
of opinion had taken place on the subject, and with regard
to the matter refereed to they were all agteed. Bills
founded on the recommendations of the Commissioners had
from time to time been introduced, one in particular by the
Government of Lord Grey. The Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Lambeth had also taken up the subject,

It was not quite correct to state that the measures had
failed from the opposition given to them. The real state
of the care was this—a measure founded upon these recom-
mendations had been introduced into the House of Lords
and there was this difficulty felt respecting it: the Bishops
were of opinion that it should be preceded by a clergy dis-
cipline Bill. A measure of this sort had been introduced,
hut had not passed the House of Lords. With respect to
the patronage he would just state, that, having waited on
the Archbishop of Canterbury to submit to that Right
Reverend Prelate a measure the effect of which was to
depiive that Right Rev. Prelate of patronage to. the amount
of 10,000/. n-year, his Grace had said, " Give me ten mi.
nwes to consider of it ;" et end of the ti ,n o-;inw,-s,
txpri.‘ss-.:sd hirns-•if perfectly v.-Ay to give up the -N-,(1,1c,