The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-16 00:00:00

CHALMERS' TARGET.

Mr. A. TURNER asked the Secretary to the Admiralty
whether the principle upon which the " Chalmers Tar-
get" was constructed was not the same as the plan
furnished by Mr. John Clare, jun., per Admiralty order,
dated June, 1855, on the 25th June, 1855; and if the prin-
ciple upon which the Erebus, Terror, Thunderbolt,Warrior,
Black Prince, Resistance, Defence, Achilles, Hector, Va-
liant, Minotaur, Northumberland, &c., were constructed
was not the same as the plans furnished by Mr. John Clare,
jun., the 9th and 16th July, 1855, as published in Parlia-
mentary papers moved for by Mr. Maguire, 3d March, 1863,
developing the mole of placing timber between metal as a
non-conductor of vibration ?
Lord C. PAGET replied that he answered a similar
question the other day. The Admiralty could not take
upon itself to decide whether a piracy or not had been cow •
witted. The Court of Queen's Bench had decided that the
patent had not been infringed.
SUEZ CANAL.

Mr. D. GRIFFITH asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether the despatch from the Turkish Government, pro-
hititing the compulsory employment of forced labour on
the Satz Canal, which had obtained publicity, was au-
thentic; and, if so, whether her Majesty's Government
would support the Sultan in carrying that object into
effect ?
Lord PALMERSTON said it was well known that
Egypt constituted part of the Turkish empire, and was un-
der the sovereignty of the Sultan. Enforced labour had
long been the practice in Egypt, but recently the Sultan
and the Pasha had resolved to put an end to it, (Hear,
hear.) The Government entirely approved of this resolve,
and would give it their entire support. (Hear, hear.) The
independence of Turkey has been guaranteed by the five
great Powers, and he did not therefore apprehend that
France or any of the other Powers could possibly object to
the abolition of enforced labour.
ROMAN BRIGANDS AND THE NEAPOLITAN
STATES.

Sir G. BOWYER asked the First Lord of the Treasury
what were the proofs of a statement that there exists at
Rome a committee of no less than 200 persons by whom
bands of murderers were organised, and sent forth into the
Neapolitan territory to commit every sort of atrocity; and
whether he would lay upon the table any official correspon-
dence or other documents in support of that statement ?
Loyd PALMERSTON replied that ho had no positive
proof that the statement he made the other evening was
correct, bat he had every reason to believe that it was based
upon facts. He had no documents to lay on the table.
From time to time he was in the habit of receiving infor-
mation about men and things in various parts of the world
—(hear, hear)—but if he were to state publicly the names
of his informants, he should know as little about such
matters as the hon. baronet himself. (Laughter.) But he
could on this occasion adduce an authority from whom
the hon. baronet could easily obtain information with re-
spect to the doings of the Bourbon committee sitting at
Rome. On Monday, the 3d of the present month, a cer-
tain father, Conchi, preached at Rome by request of the
Archbishop of Naples, before the ex-King of Naples,
his Court, and a large Bourbon congregation.
The priest reproached the assemb y with making
promises of money to and issuing inflammatory ad-
dresses 'among. ignorant and excitable people, in order
to induce them to commit acts of pillage and
murders in Southern Italy, whilst they would not furnish
the smallest coin fer the relief of the poor of the Imperial
city. (Hear, hear.) If the hon. baronet would communi-
cate with Father Conchi, no doubt he would obtain the
most accurate information with respect to whom the Bour-
bon Committee sitting at Rome consisted, the aims it had
in view, and the system they did not hesitate to enforce.
(Hear, and laughter.)
TAXING THE CHARITIES OF IRELAND.

Mr. BLAKE asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether he intended withdrawing Resolution /8 in Ways
and Means, relative to imposing legacy duty on bequests
intended for charitable purposes in Ireland ; and, if not, on
what day after theWhitsuntide recess he would be likely to
move the said resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that as the Government had withdrawn its proposed plan
to impose the income tax on English charities, they did not
intend to persevere with it in regard to the charities of Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.)
CIRCASSIAN TRIBES.

Viscount RAYNH AM asked the First Lord of the Trea.

sury whether her Majesty's Government were aware of
certain outrages that had recently been committed by Rus-
sian troops on the Circassian tribes of the Eastern shores of
the Black Sea, with which were combined an insult to her
Majesty—and, whether her Majesty's Government were
prepared to support those clauses of the Treaty of Paris
which provide for the free navigation of the Black Sea in
the cases of certain vessels which were about to trade with
Circassia.
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the Government had
received no report of the alleged outrages; but so many
gross acts had been committed by Russian troops in various
parts of the world that no doubt the facts stated by the
noble lord were correct. (Hear, hear.) No question with
respect to the navigation of the Black Sea had arisen since
the treaty of Paris, and he apprehended that it was too
clear to lead to any misconstruction of its terms.
WHITSUNTIDE HOLIDAYS. ADJOURNMENT
OF THE HOUSE.
Lord PALMERSTON said it would no doubt tend to
the convenience of the house if he stated that he intended
to move on Tuesday that this house at its rising that even-
mg adjourn until the Thursday week following. According
to the usual practise the hou.,e would not meet on Wed-
nesday next; he apprehended therefore, it would not be
worth while to meet on Thursday next in order to adjourn
the house after another night's sitting. (Hear, hear.)
SUPPLY —REGIMENTAL QUARTERMASTERS.
Sir F, SMITH, on the motion for going into Committee
of Supply, rose to bring under the notice of the house the
necessity of improving the condition of the regimental
quartermasters of the army; and to move for correspon-
dence relating thereto.
The Marquis of HARTINGTON could not promise
any alteration of the present system, but had no objection
to produce all the papers, save such as it would be improper
to lay on the table in accordance with the regulations of
the service.
After a few words from Col. ININNE and Sir J. FERGUS-
SON, the motion was withdrawn.
CHINA.

Mr. LIDDELL rose to call the attention of the house to
events in China, with a view of obtaining an expression of
opinion from the house upon the course of policy pursued
in that country, and to move a resolution. He had taken
up the question as an act of public duty, because he felt
that the time was come when thai house ought to review
what had occurred in Chinl--when they ought to inquire
and scrutinise closely what was now going on in China,
and t odeliberately weigh the responsibility
which
attached to our position in
he gravelytho thought
g h andt
necessarily
that country. It was a long time since they had had a China
debate in that house, and during that interim very great
events had occurred in that country. There was a great and
growing interest felt in that country in matters relating to
the conduct of our foreign affairs, and we had adopted, as a
general principle--which had met with the approval of the
"untry—non•intervention as far as possible, We had pur-
sued it towards America, but not so in China. There we
had pursued a totally different policy, and had actively inter-
fered in the internal affairs of a friendly State by force of
arms, to prop up a weak and corrupt Government against
the efforts of its own subjects, who were bent on subverting

it; and that in behalf of a. Gavernment that we had done
more to weaken and degrade than any other nation in the
eyes of its own subjects. The hon. member then read ex-
tracts from the despatches of Consul Meadows and Mr.
Parkes in support of the opinion that the Government of
China was effete and corrupt, also citing the acknowledg-
ments of Prince Kung to the same effect ; and he next pro-
ceeded to describe the progress of the rebellion. He admit-
ted he was sceptical as to the cause of the rebels being in
any way connected with the. cause of the Taepings. All
that he desired the house to recognise was, that the rebel-
lion was an established fact of 11 years' standing, and that
the rebels had held Nankin, the ancient capital of the em-
pire, for ten years. In 1853 they organised a moat re-
markable military movement. They marched two armies
from Nankin against Pekin, which was 1,600 miles dis-
tant, and had those two armies been able to form a
junction, Pekin, in all probability, would have fallen
into their hands, He knew it was a very difficult task, after
all that had been said and written on the subject of the
rebels, to get up in that house and attempt to justify their
conduct. Well, he did not intend to do so further than to
remind the house that China had been in a state of chronic
anarchy, and that civil war was ever accompanied with
dreadful scenes of bloodshed and rapine. Besides, it must
be remembered that one of the most disgraceful features in
the Chinese character was their disregard of human life.
However, it was important to consider what was the feeling
of the rebels towards the English. The hon. member read ex-
tracts from the despatches of Consul Meadows, Mr. Parkes,
and Consul Harvey to prove that originally, at all events,
their desire was to cultivate the most friendly relations with
the English. If a change subsequently took place in that
feeling, it was attributed to our conduct towards them ; but
at the samEetilmiseh heroust say, that throughout the whole
of the blue book he did not find a single instance recorded
of the Taepings having intentionally injured British life or
property. In their advance upon Shanghai, to which they
were induced
by English partly by the language of the missionaries, and
partly by the promise of expqcted treasure, they were mowed
d
guns planted on the walls of the town, and
it was that circumstance whioh sowed the first seeds of hosti-
lity towards the English in th 3 minds of the rebel popula-
tion. The hon, member then proceeded to argue that an ad-
vance up the river Yang-tae was entirely premature, as long
as the rebels were in possession of the country along the
banks ; and that according to the admissions of our own con-
suls an immense increase had taken place, in consequence, in
theillegal traffic carried on in the district. This was the very

result anticipated by Lord Elgin, and a result which had
greatly exasperated the Chinese GoVernment against Eng-
land. The almost necessary cons quence of opening up 600
miles of a river for trade was to come into collision with
the rebels ; for during a- time of civil war it was almost
impossible to say to. which party the territory belonged.
This country had undertaken to give protection to life and
property in China, and to protect certain spaces round the
treaty ports, such as Shanghai and Ningpo. This protec-
tion extended over an area of 30 miles round Shanghai.
Since the spring of 1862 this country had been in constant
conflict with the rebels at Shanghai and Ningpo. He
wished to call attention especially to the case of Ningpo,
which had been captured by the rebels in the autumn of
1861. In May, 1862, the British forces recaptured the
town. Soon after, Consul Harvey discovered that England
had never obtained a leg it settlement for trade in Ningpo ;
and it also appeared that Admiral Hope:, on hearing of the
fact, wrote a letter full of alarm to Mr. Bruce, and request-
ing his attention to the matter. While this state of things
was going on, Captain Dew, under the pretext of protecting
a settlement which this country did not legally possess,
brought his vessels up the river, and placed them in the
line of the enemy's fire. They were soon struck by a num••
ber of balls which had been fired from the guns of the rebels.
The assault was resented, and for five hours shots and shells
were fired into that town. One of the evils arising from the
sites which had been originally granted for the purpose of
allowing foreign merchants and traders to erect warehou es
and dwelling houses, so that hey might live apart from
the Chinese, was that since the civil war broke out an
enormous number of the Chinese population fled to these
places for protection, which gave rise to frequent collisions
and reprisals. Remonstrances were frequently made by
the Imperial Government at Pekin with regard to the dis-
turbances which took place in these settlements, but Mr.
Bruce always disclaimed interference on the part' of the
Chinese Government with these sites, as he asserted they
were " x- terri tor ialised." He believed that the joint pro-
tectorate of England, France, Russia, and the United
States was likely to produce the most serious evils, by
making China the theatre of foreign intrigue. He
bad no wish to defend the cause of the foreign
traders in China; but what he said was that, if the only
justification that could ba offered for the naval and military
occupation of China was the obtaining facilities for trade,
then, if the Chinese were left to themselves and the question
of politics was not mixed up with it, they would give us
every facility for quietly and peaceably carrying on our trade
in that country, as was the case under the old East India
Company. The merchants were not satisfied with the rules
and regulations laid down for trade. (Hear, hear.) The
question of indemnity figured very largely in every budget;
but, so far from our being recouped for the expenses of the
war, we had to pay the indemnity in the increased taxation
imposed by China on her trade in order that she might be
able to pay the indemnity. They had heard a great deal
about the expedition to China, and when application was
made to the Home Government to permit our officers and
men to engage in it, it was described as a very unusual re-
quest. He thought it was, and felts rry that Capt. Osborn
and he picked men who were with him should be engaged in
such a service. (Hear, hear.) He complained of these men
wearing her Majesty's uniform, all but the crown on the
button, in the service of China, which, with other matters,
were very irritating and annoying to the home service. The
Foreign Enlistment Act had been carried out with rigour,
and in a manner offensive to the people of England, against
honest English traders. Their goods and their premises
had been infested with spies under the powers of the En-
listment Act , but why, he asked, had its provisions been
set aside by a Royal proclamation in favour of the Emperor
of China. (Hear, hear.) No doubt our stake in China was
great. It was a struggle for supremacy in that quarter •
but our success would depend on the means we employed
for carrying out our efforts. (Hear.) He would not say
whether we had or had net violated neutrality, or that we had
or had not kept our promises; but he asserted that sooner
or later all those matters must be brought before the search-
ing tribunal of public opinion, before a clear and abso-
lute verdict could be given in our favour. (Hear, hear.)
Unless we changed our policy, that civilisation we wished
to give to the Chinese would be advanced by a blood-stained
path, and those efforts which promised blessings and plenty
would carry irritation and discontent into the hearts of a
naturally industrious and peaceful people. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. BAILLIE said our military force in China cost
this country a million per annum, which was equal to a
penny in the pound on the income tax ; and the question
they had to consider was, whether that money was wisely
and judiciously expended—to ascertain what end and ob-
ject was to be gained by all these desultory naval and mili-
tary operations in China, and what were the views and in-
tentions of her Majesty's Government with regard to it.
The right hon. gentleman referred to the occupation of
China by the Freneh, observing that it was difficult to un-
derstand the object of France in inaugurating a crusade
against the Taepings. Some persons attributed it to reli-
gious motives; and if the Taepings had incurred the hatred
of France on account of their fanaticism, they had no less
incurred the hatred and hostility of the Anglo-Indian
opium merchants by their vigorous and successful prohibi-
tion of the use and consumption of that pernicious drug.
Both felt aggrieved, but what cause of complaint her Majes-
ty's Government had against the 'ravings he had yet to
discover. However, things had come to such a pass that
they were actually engaged as partisans in the bloody war
which was now raging in China. Lord Aberdeen was said
to have dragged the country into a war with Russia. Well,
the same Government being in power now which was in
power in those days, it was doubly the duty of the house to
take care that England was not dragged into a war with
China, the ultimate consequence of which, so far as ex-
pense was concerned, no one could foresee. It certainly
was not a little remarkable that the noble lord, who was
:such a champion of nationalities, should now be engaged,
in conjunction with France, in propping up a Government
in China which was obnoxious to the great majority of
the population. He denied that the Taepings were the
worthless multitude which they had been sometimes de-
scrined. It was true the war had been marked by great bar-
barities, but the barbarities were common to both sides, and
were only such as had characterised the warfare of the Tar-
tar race from the commencement of their history. Where,
however, the inhabitants submitted to the government of
the Taepings no devastations were perpetrated. Upon that
point they were in possession of the evidence of British mer-
chants who had travelled over the whole country in posses-
sion of the Taepings. It was impossible for any one to sup-
pose that our operations on the coast of China could exer •
cise any influence upon the result of the contest ; and if that
were so, it became a question whether they were not doing
more harm than good, even as regarded the commerce of
England, by interfering at all in the matter. It appeared to
him that her Majesty's Government had placed themselves
in a false position, and that, in their anxiety to preserve the
commerce of England, they had got into a difficulty out o
which they could neither advance nor recede.

No other hon. member rising to address the house, the
Speaker put the question, which was negatived without a
division.

On the main question, that the house resolve itself into
committee of supply, being again put,
Mr. COBDEN rose and said—Sir, during the course of
my experience in this house I have never encountered such
an occurrence as that which has taken place this evening.

:Cheers.) An hon. member opposite brings forward a mo-s

important question—a question to which he has devoted con-
siderable labour, and which he has stated with considerable
ability. (Hear.) There were undoubtedly many hon. gen-
tlemen prepared to take part in the discussion which, with
good reason, they imagined would arise; and so, after the
hon. member had been followed by the hon, member for In-
verness, it was naturally expected that some answer would
be made by the hon. member representin:; the Government
to the observations of those hon. members. I think that
not merely a due regard for the ordinary routine of our pro-
cedure, but that common respect which was due the hon.
members themselves, ought to have induced the hon. gen-
tleman to make some reply to the very important statement
which was laid before the house. (Renewed cheers.) I
consider this question of China, whether viewed from its
commercial or political aspect, to be one of the most grave
and perilous that can come before us. (Hear.) The forms
of the house will not allow us to continue the discussion
now, and I can therefore only repeat my astonishment that
the Government had acted in the way they did this even-
ing, (Loud cheers.)
Mr. 11, SEYMOUR concurred in the sentiment of asto-
nishment just expressed by the hon. member for Rochdale.
Such a scene he had never witnessed since he had had the
honour of a seat in that house. (Cheers.) It was the firm
conviction of many persons in the country that the expedi-
tion of Capt. S, Osborn had for its ultimate object the con-
quest of China; and yet, in respect of a question so grave
and so elaborately treated, they were not to be favoured
with any explanations on the part of the Government. In
his opinion the hon. members opposite had been treated
with the grossest disrespect--(hear)--and he hoped that
the question would be very speedily before the house again.
(Cheers.)

Lord NAAS said he had been 15 years in the house, and
he never recollected such an occurrence as that which had
taken place that evening. (Cheers) The question of China
was perhaps the most important of all the questions likely
to occupy Parliament during the present session ; but it was
now made apparent that, if the Government thought fit to
disregard the ordinary forms of the house at any time, it
was open to them to deprive members of the opportunity of
discussing the most important questions. As it was no
doubt exceedingly disappointing that the subject should be
treated in such a way, he begged to give notice that he
would take an opportunity of again calling attention to if,
and the Government must not complain if for the purpose
he interposed on a supply night. (Cheers.)

Mr. WHITE said that when so scanty a house was pre-
sent to hear one of the most important questions discussed
that could be brought forward in Parliament—when they
found themselves with only an audience of some ten or a
dozen members—(cries of " No, no," from hon. members on
the benches below the Ministerial gangway)—on an occa-
sion of such interest, it really was not surprising that the
debate collapsed. (No, no.) Personally, he greatly de-
plored that the Government had made no reply to the state-
ment of the hon. member opposite; but, at the same time,
when such general apathy was shown towards the question,
ho did not think that their conduct upon that occasion ought
to have been visited with so severe a measure of wrath.
Mr, LA YARD desired to say a few words in explanation.

If his enthusiastic friend the hon. member for Poole (Mr.
H. Seymour) had looked at the notice paper, he would have
seen that he was precluded by the forms of the house from
immediately replying to the statement of the hon. members
opposite. On the paper there were no less than four notices
with respect to foreign affairs, and then there came another
notice with regard to China on the part of his hon. and gal-
lant friend the member for Aberdeen (Col. Sykes). lie
therefore, very naturally, did not wish to preclude himself
from the opportunity of speaking in reply to those other
notices, which would have been the case had he risen im-
mediately after the hon. member for Inverness (Mr. Ballie).
He must say he thought the observations of hon. members
were most unfair towards himself, and that if the debate was
prematurely closed it was their own fault.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said his hon. friend the Under-
Secretary for Foreign Affairs was under an entire misap-
prehension; for it would have been perfectly competent
for him to have addressed the house with respect to
each of the several notices referred to by him on the
question of going into committee of supply. (Hear,
hear.) However, he was very glad that it was owing to a
misapprehension that the discussion had ended as it had,
and that it was not owing to what bore the appearance of a
contempt for the feelings and opinions of members of the
house. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SYKES said that if his hon. friend the Under-
Secretary had looked at his notice he must have seen that
it referred to papers which were included in the notice of the
hon, member for Northumberland, and that would have
'superseded the necessity of his addressing the house at all
with respect to that notice. He must say, as an indepen-
dent supporter of the Government, that he could not but
regret the effect which the occurrence of that evening would
have upon their reputation throughout the country. (Hear,
hear.)
Sir H. VERNEY reminded the house, in defence of the
Government, that the practice was for the Minister to reply
at the end of all the motions. (Cries of " No, no ; ques-
tion.") In regard to the main subject, he believed that the
atrocities of the Chinese Government were nothing in corn-
patina to the frightful conduct of the Taepings, who over-
ran districts of the country and devoured it like locusts.
The only means of restoring tranquillity and order was by
supporting the Imperial Government.
The motion was then agreed to.
The house went into committee of supply pro forma, and
immediately resumed.

THAMES EMBANKMENT (NORTH SIDE) BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
LONDON COAL AND WINE DUTIES CONTINU.
ANCE BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
VACCINATION (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill, as amended, was considered and agreed to.
SALE OF MILL SITES, &c., (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
STATUTE LABOUR ROADS AND BRIDGES
(SCOTLAND) BILL.

This bill was committed pro forma.
STATUTE LABOUR ROADS AND BRIDGES
(SCOTLAN D) TRANSFER BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.

Mr. BRAND (for Sir R. Peel) obtained leave to intro-
duce a bill to amend the laws relating to fisheries in Ireland.
PIER AND HARBOUR OR ,ERS CONFIRMATION

BILL.

Mr. M. GIBSON moved that the select committee on the
Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation Bill, so far as it re•
lates to the piers at Llandudno and Rhyl, be appointed by
the committee of selection, in the same manner as in the
case of a private bill.

The motion was agreed to.
The house adjourned at a quarter-past 8 o'clock.