The Sun.
London, England, 1830-11-16 00:00:00

Civil List, &es was 14521,68 a ; deducting from " thi,
amount 166,184/, now transferred from the Civil Lite
tlts lbalance .v 1,055,448/ , but the estimate" annum
°Oho probable future ("large was 970,0001., leaving I
diminution t.tf eitatge, after providing for the Queen, a
den sassing upon the List Civil List of 85,4461. Let the
llon.-pireinet go through the various classes of the Ciei
List' as now proposed, and he would see the items 01
which- the saving was effected. In a Committee the Hon
Gentleman would have nothing bot the papers now upon
the table, without power of examining witnesses, ant'
*timid the opportunity of Wiring any difficulties it
the statements ekared up by his (the Chancellor ot
the Exchequer's) explanations. Under such einum
statictis, no etiditiOuttl information 7'coulii be afforeleit
by the Committee for which the Honourable Menthe,
asked. The next object to which the Hon. Baronet ap-
peared to refer, as constituting a growed for the aptioint.
mint of a Committee; was an examination of the milers o!
retaining the present amount of pensions charged open tle
Civil List. But how could the Hon. Member obtainifuller
information or better grounds for discussion in &Pn-
mittee than were already afforded by the papers before
the douse; in addition to which, pension lists Were in
preparation, and would shortly be laid on the table its pur-
suance of a motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
Thus the House would have in its own hands the nneaus
of judging of the nature and amount of pensions tis fully
! as any Conunittee, which Committee would not possess
the power of examining witnesses. As far as she ques.
tion of economy was concerned, the Hon. Gentlemaq could
gain nu advantage by the appointment of a ComMittee ;
for that Object might as well be promoted by a tgoposi-
tiou for a seduction of pensions in the Committee upon
the Bill. it. might content himself with leaving the
question of pensions with this single observation, but as
the lion. Gentletnan had expressed a decided opinion as
to the enormous amount of the pensions at the disposal of
the Crown, he would only ask the lion. Member to refer
to antecedent periods, and observe how small a proportion
the pension list now at the disposal of the Crown bore to
that which formerly existed. When Mr. Burke proposed
to limit the English pension list to 95,0001., it wits with
a view to economy and a great reduction. Hut the
amount of pensions upon the English Civil List was now
estimated at a much lower sum (74,0001.) The Irish
pension list was new only 40,0001. ; before the Union it
amounted to 146,000/. The Scotch Pension List also
stood antecedently at a considerably larger amount than at
present. If the Hon Gentleman was disposed to com-
tnent on the amount of the pension list now left at the dis-
posal of the Crown, he must nut call it extravagant,
as compared with the pension lists of former periods, but
must at once admit how great was the reduction effected
in that blanch of expenditure.--(Hear, hear.)—sliut the
next reason why the Hon. Baronet was desirous of going
into a Committee appeared to be, for the purpose of
examining : into the salaries of foreign Moisten.: Why
not examine the amount of those salaries at present, and

at once enter into a discussion act to whether they dould be
more or less reduced ? AU the details were before the
Hon. Member. He could therefore go into the sUerits of
the case. What advantage would the Hon. Baronet derive
from examining the question of the salaries of the Am-
bacoadors in a room up attain, instead of investigating the
subject in a room in his own residence, and then bringing
the matter before the House ? The Hon. Member said,

and said truly, that our expenditure on account of foreign
Ministers was increased in 1820. He (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) admitted the fact, but was prePared to
maintain that the circumstances of the titnee-ithe in-
creased number of Ministers—the augmentation made in
the ellowunces of the Ambassadors of other States--the
additional expense imposed on our foreign Ministers—
all rendered an increased expenditure in this department
necessary. But though the present amount of our foreign
expenditure was greater than formerly, effurts hail been
eystematically made to diminish it, and it had been re-
duced from time to time. These reductions were made
by his Noble Friend at present at the head of the,Foreign,
Office, ' and by his predecessor, Lord Dudley and the
present estimate was less by'25,000/. a year than at any
antecedent period. When the Hon. Baronet referred to
the expense of the foreign embassies at a former, as com-
pared with the present period, he ought to have stated how
considerably the number of our foreign Ministers lied been
increased of late years. At the period referred to we had
only 17 'Minnows at foreign Court., we had now 20, and
all in stations so important that it was absolutely indispen-
sable that communications should be kept up with them in
this way. In the new states of South America a great Aug,
mutation of expense hail been necessarily incurred, hy, di-
plomatic mitisiutte, and yet, notwithstanding the increa.e
in number, his. Noble Friend had been enabled to bring
this branch of expenditure within the ultimate of 1816,
for the maintenance of 17 foreign Ministers, the number
then employed. We had, as already stated, 25 foreign
Ministers at present. Thinking, therefore, that a refer-
ence of the Civil List to the Committee, which the lion.
Barobet proposed, could givens no additional means of re-
dieting our expenditure; he opposed the *notion. , He "lop
opposed it because he thought it proper fur Government
to incur the responsibility, for htinging.ferward The Civil
List, instead of shifting the burden upon a Committee. :Ile
wished to say a few words in reply to the lion; Getttle%
man's observations Upon Isis *perch on a former evening,
when lie introduced the subject to the entice of the House.,
He denied the conclusion to which the Hon. Baronet
bad conic with respect to the Civil Litt of .1815. The
Hoe. Gentleman overturned his own plopoeitioin, for the
appointment of a Committee, fur he said that in, lei I 5 -16
we fixed a Civil List on the largest tensible shale ; but
was that Civil List _framed without the aid of a Com-
mittee previously appointed? By au want? Could the
lion. Baronet not object with propriety to a Civil List
constructed with the, assistance of a Committee? That
was ineon%istent with his argument fur the appointment
of a Contmittee et present. 'Yet if the lion. Baronet's
opinion as to the excel ive amount of that Civil List were
correct, we stood a better chance now of arriving at a
fair conclusion without a Committee than with one,—
(Ilear.)---The Hon. Baronet reented to tax him with
alluding to the circumstance of there having beets :to debt
upon the late Civil Lists, and the lion. Member, argued
that the fact of no debt being incurred was a proof of
extravagance in the Civil List, What did the !Hon. B.
tenet consider , the. circumstance of inctirrisig clehte ta
be? Was it a pitch of extravagance to rue into or
or keep out of debt? .If a man kept within the limits
of his income, was he extravagant, or was his income
of necessity enormous? And if he ran into debt,
was be the .contrary of extravagant, and was his
income necessarily limited? If the Iluto Baronet, argued
in this way, he confessed lie knew not with what process
argument- alluded blu t° etnosvil.eyr theiibier...-.(Kilns,
)11—lo n(.ll4aern'tileletenrs n)
personal expenditure of the Crovin
IfLicriooasitic
itrilen!a7t.riooninigittrtilcaeawliticilliceee(l
it
ei
oi.
---owfWrisreahiltleto-nrel'igreeirntgc4ee' to a separation of that part ofi time Civil
which belonged snore peculiarly to other
the country; tool the
Chancellor of the Exchequer)
had stated norrea•on why lie should not depart from the
usual practice in this case. lie should think that the
practice that had; uniformly prevailed in the country in
this respect, was one Wiliell it Would not he wise to de.
part from even at .the present time when innovation was
the fashion. But' the Hun. Gentleman's rule appeared to
he, than all past practice' were uniformly and invariably
had, and that we never amid he in ertor if we departe.l
front theme lie could not eubmit to allow the soundness
of thin, doctrine. if the lion. litronet lied ,laint. clown the
regular course of practice which hid been ,heretefere
etlopted.on such oveasione as the present, end called on the
House to follow it, then he could understand the proceed
ing ; hut he had acted in 4 manner directly contrary. He
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had before awed, in ex-
plicit terms, that balancing all the argument.' which could
bebrought to hear an %hie question, it Was better to retain
the Civil. List in its present eituatiou, and on its existing
foundation, than torproceed in tt,e way which the-Hon.,
Baronet reeommettdc4L . TIM lion. Baronet stid, in the
first place, that the expanse of the Civil List, under the
existing aystein, gave to thu 10-tfispostal ahrotighout the
country an epportonity of declaiming about hie Majesty's
enortnotia igcomo, which they would enpuotto alpotinted to
upwards of 1,000,000 f. a. yeare-seao expOoditure that WO
calculated, in the nand' of persenciginwent, of the fitet,
to ercatti Ws ollection against the Itoyal authority, Now
lie could not agree with. the Hun. Baronet in his view of
the subject. 11 individuals recurred to the clocamente end
stetements which had been produced relative to the Civil
List, thcy roust see sufficient to correct this mistaken idea.
And he` mast repeat that the King did not' enjoy the
cebole•of the provision lonic by parlianient,—it was not
all merged To Me personal expenditure, but a very large
portion of it was appropriated tli other and very distinct
l'aft°;e4' 'Then Ile' etnitenileal, 'that if they Outfitted the
I , Itatav,)1111ti,li:•:0:41i :1,1-)wittl..,t.ow,l4O:tol}ifnlleliiiifti:
ej
ftwitbßicis,lolllten
ebryt:::pi.,:%7l,r
ivia.iteea4::rillie,pc,t,nrlihm°lpts,
.I:):thoiP9v‘e:e:ar,riir Yitlyth)u.nesolif:ot.thri.:ode:Ptetypfirr:ii,
io:/ei eiblcitiYttlaa I‘l.itte:ll Ilicia:ll:s:l.....:!l:tlill'iiat.ie:l:
to prevent.—f Laughter, anti-cries of '! Oh.'') Whet be
Would be the feeling of those intlivichtele mho ohjeoted to
; the.geaut of 1,000,000/. partly for pritsni4e,aed 8414 fur
\
pulttio piwpoteona-if they were told that
.500,0004 atyr,r.
lie was io,eteetly tionyineed that , it, would ,la ve- th
I effect, the decided effect, of liringing the 111 411 '''
"
'obloituy......:(a. oh oi, le . %.,,
_. y.. . more 1111 P
, . ? IV 1)1” ,t Milli tint peoide eay when