The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-03 00:00:00

THIRD READINGS.

The Putney and Fulham New Bridge and Pier—West
London Docks and Warehouses—lsle of Purbeck Railway
and Rusthall Manor bills were read a third time and passed.

SAVINGS BANKS MONEYS BILL.
On the motion of Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY,
this bill was read a third time and passed.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS_Last Evening.
The SPEAXER took the chair at the usual hour.
NEW MEMBER—THE CITY OF LONDON.
Mr. GOSCHEN took the oaths and his seat.
TRAWL FISHING.

The Sheriffs of London and Middlesex appeared at the
bar in their robes, and presented a petition from the Lord
Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council, against trawl
fishing.

THIRD RE ADINUS.
The following bills were read a third time :.--Fochabers
and Garmouth Railway—Londonderry Railway (Seaham to
Sunderland—and Potteries Junction Railway.
PETITIONS.
An immensely large number of petitions were presented
in favour of the bill for closing public-houses on the Sab-
bath ; Mr. TERNER, from Manchester, one numerously
signed, against ; Major PARKER, from Windsor, and Mr.
F. PEEL, to the same effect.
CLOSING OF PUBLICHOUSES ON SUNDAY.

Mr. SOMES explained certain statistics with respect to
a petition presented the other evening in favour of this
bill from the licensed victuallers of Hull.
KINGSTON AND HOLYHEAD MAILS.
On the motion of Mr. LAIRD a return of the several
occasions upon which the steamboats conveying the mails
between Kingston and Holyhead have been delayed
or in any way affected by the occurrence of fogs,
either at or near Kingstown or at or near Holyhead, since
June 30, 1861, to the present time, and specifying the
amount of delay caused by the fog in each instance.—
Ordered .
PROPOSED RECOGNITION OF THE CONFEDE-

RATE STATES.
Mr. ROEBUCK intimated that he intended, on the 30th
of June, to bring forward his motion with respect to the
recognition of the Southern States of America.
Mr. CONINGHAM gave notice that he intended to
move a direct negative to the motion.
DISTRIBUTION OF ARMY PRIZES.
Colonel NORTH postponed his motion from the 23d to
the 30th of June.

THE COTTON DISTRICTS.
Mr. FERRAND intimated that on Friday he should ask
the President of the Poor Law Board when the return of
unmarried women employed in the cotton factories would
be laid on the table, and when the works proposed by the
Government engineer and sanctioned by the Government
would be commenced.
THE ALEXANDRA.
Mr. HOPWOOD asked the Attorney General when the
case of the Alexandra is to be tried.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL replied that he antici-
pated the case would be tried at the Middlesox sittings after
the present term—namely, on Monday the 15th of the pre-
sent month.
ELSWICS. ORDNANCE COMPANY.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the _Under Secretary of
State for War if any sum or sums of money were to be paid
to the Elswick Ordnance Company under any indenture or
agreement ; and, if any sum or sums of money were to be
paid, out of what funds will the payment be made, and by
what authority ?
The Marquis of HARTINGTON replied that the Go-
vernment contract with the works was put an end to by the
late Secretary of War, Sir G. Lewis. The company made
a claim of £85,500, £55,000 of which was disputed. The
matter was referred to Mr. Fenton for arbitration, and the
result had bean that the disputed amount had been paid,
and the Government had received stock to cover the balance,
to liquidate which a sum would be asked in the votes this
year.
THE STRUCTURE OF' THE +GREAT ItiTERNA-
, TioNAL EXHIBITION.

Mr. GREGORY asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether a detailed estimate of the repairing and altering,
and eventually completing the International Exhibition
building would be laid before the house; whether any state-
ment would be made to the house of the object the Go-
vernment had in view in purchasing the building, and to
what purpose it was to be applied ; whether the two glass
domes were to be replaced by two permanent structure,
on the same design, and when the vote would be taken for
this embellishment of London and its ;vicinity. (Hear,
and laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that the estimate which had been prepared, and which
would be submitted to the house, treated upon the cost of
buying, altering, and maintaining the building. The °H.:

ginal cost of the building was £300,000, with an addition of
£130,000 to be paid to the contractors, making together
£430,000. The price which the contractors had agreed to
take, in addition to the payments already made to them,
was £BO,OOO. The site, including the refreshment rooms,
would cost £120,000--£200,000 in all, The value
of the property for building purposes, including the re-
freshment departments, was £230,000, but £710,000 was the
estimated value of the whole of the property in the market,
so that the public would get the whole of it for £200,000.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord R. CECIL asked if any estimate had been prepared
of the annual repairs ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that the cost of the annual repairs were included in the
estimate, _ _ .

Mr. D. SEYMOUR enquired if the-estimate would in-
clude the coat of endowing the Exhibition with a decent
appearance ? (Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that the estimate would certainly include the cost of giving
the building a " &acid." appearance. (Laughter.)
VOLUNTEER ENGINEER CORPS.

Mr. PEACOCKE asked the Under Secretary of State
for War if there was any objection fcr the Government to
supply Volunteer Corps of Engineers with the implements
necessary for their duties?
The Marquis of HARTINGTON replied that all the
requisite implements—upwards of 24 in number for each
man—had been readily furnished. •
THE ROYAL SOCIETY AND THE BOARD OF
TRADE.

Mr. A. SMITH asked the President of the Board of
Trade whether he would lay upon the table of the house a
copy of the correspondence which had lately taken place
between the meteorological department of his office and
the Royal Society?
Mr. M. GIBSON replied that he had no objections.
BUOYS, &c.

Mr. A. SMITH asked the President of the Board of
Trade when the index to the report of the commission on
lights, buoys, and beacons would be printed and presented
to the house ?
Mr. M. GIBSON replied that it would shortly be pre.
*anted to the house.
MAYNOOTB. COLLEGE ACT.

WRALLEY then proceeded to move " That this
---()1166 will imediate' resolve itself into a committee to
cons m Y
ider the Act 8 and 9 Vic., for the endowment of the
due ot
e regud be?amatk, with* view to the repeal of the same,
the conevaelths4 tcrvested rights and' interests." At
loud cries tot il_th6 Ilan. gentleman's address there were
Mr. BLILCIL-'ll-, •
made a calculations the motion, saying that he had
got a Government ILluititm-ad ticiat the Roman Catholics
thePresbyteriaam, " °al/ five g
farthins each, and
Mr. BOMBS ufseci,ua
" divide," "dividt,"
'midst cries of
Sir R. PEEL briefly replied to soma the hon. gentleman, and opposed akdements of
siderable impatience on the part of thertt°ll.4444 •
very intolerant to deny that education tom*. It veal. be
tholics which other classes received at
titllla °null& Ca-
State e bands ot
Mr. NE WDEGATE supported the motion.
Mr. WHALLEY briefly replied ; the house divided,
when there appeared—
For the motion ...... 100
Against it
Majority
The motion was ascordingly lost.
SEA FISHERIES.
Mr. FENWICK rose to move that an humble address be
presented to her Majestypraymg that she will be graciously
pleased to issue a Royal commission to inquire into our sea
fisheries, with the view of increasing the supply of a favourite
and nutritious article of food for the benefit of the public.
The hon, member said there could be no doubt of the im-
, portance of the sea fisheries, as they afforded
wedaaslnaorgme
esaunpsployf
of food for all classes of the public. There
getting an exact account of the entire quantity of fish con-
sumed in this country; but be had been furnished with the
returns of eight railway companies, from which it could be
inferred what an enormous quantity was annually consumed.
During the year 1862 the Sough-Eastern Railway brought
up to London 3,218 tons ; London and Brighton, 5,174__.
tons; Great Western, 2,885 tons ; North British, V:2'5,,
tons; Great Northern, 11,930 tons; North-Eastern, 27,81/13
tons; Great Eastern (Eastern Counties) 29,680 tons. He
had also obtained a return of the fish sold in the Manchester
market alone, which amounted to 380 tons per week, or
1976° t°lll,lll were sol the year. In the course of the year there
din Laudon 500,000 cod fish, 25 000 000 mackerel,
100,000,000 soles, 15 000,000
plaice, 200,000,000,
fresh her-
rings ; as for sprats, the
re was no computing their number-f

As to shell fish, there Were 40,000 lobsters consumed every
day all over England. Of oysters there wer‘sold 500,000,000
yearly, cockles 70,000,000, and periwinkles 300,'x00,000. He
had made a calculation which went to show thlt a capital of
£10,000,000 was invested in this industry, as i that about
half a million of persons were employed in ir. (Hear.) He
had been in "communication with va ,ou- parts of the

country, and the almost universal comphint was, that if
something was not done the worst consequences might be

apprehended, as the fish was falling off from year to year.
He might be asked what was the cause. The cause was

the same as that which had destroyed the salmon fishery,

and a neglect of Nature's laws.

They were not familiar

with the habits of sea fish, which were beyond their kon ;

was believed that the natural home of sea-fish was

deep water, and they approached shallow water for the pur-
pose of spawning. Whatever means raked up or carried
into deep water the spawn of the fib necessarily destroyed
a large portion of fish. He had arrived at the conclusion,

based upon the authority of the most competent persons in

the fishing trade, that the two main causes of the destruction

of fish were the trawl net and the seine net. Now, when he
spoke of trawling as injurious to seafish, he wished it to be
understood that the system he referred to was altogether
distinct from the trawling for herrings which was adopted
in Scotland. The trawl net had a large beam and chain
attached to it, and the chain scraped up the whole of the
mud, and with it the spawn; not only destroying a vast
quantity of young and immature fish, but also rubbing off
the scales of the larger fish and bruising or otherwise less-
ening it in value. He had himself seen in a northern city
two cart loads of cod fish, the largest of which was not
bigger than his hand—a fact which must convince every-
body that an enormous quantity of fish was destroyed in
this way. The fishing by the seine net was equally injurious
to fish. He had given so much attention to the matter that
he could tell at once whether the fish exhibited for sale
had been taken ,by trawling or by the seine ; but he did
not rely upon his own testimony merely. In addition to
his own observation, he had communicated with some of
the most experienced men in the country, and they all
without exception, condemned the practice of trawling.
The hon. member then read the opinions of ➢lr. Jonathan
Crouch, of Cornwall, whom he characterised as the great-
est fish naturalist in the country ; of Mr. Williams, one
of the largest fish salesmen in London; of Mr. Wilcox
and ot)lers, all of whom testified to the injurious effects
of the trawling and seining systems of fishing. The hon.
member also referred to different parts of the coast where
fishing had at one time been a profitable industry, but
where fishing had now ceased, or nearly so. He then re-
viewed the laws on the subject, which had become obsolete
and ineffectual, and said the only remedy was the adoption
of the means which had revived the salmon fishery. As he
had taken part in the question of the salmon fishery, he
might take the opportunity of informing the house of the
satisfactory results which had attended the inquiry he had
moved for. He might state, by way of illustration, that
four young salmon had been taken in the Thames at the
Nore on Saturday, which were in the stage between smolt
and grills— that in itself was a gratifying result. (Hear.)
He had been tauntingly asked at the time why he had de-
voted his attention to the fish of the rich, and not done any
thing for the fish of the poor. Well, his answer was that
he was now doing something for the fish of the poor by the
terms of the motion he had now the honour to move.
Cheers.)

.
Mr. CAVE seconded the motion. The hon. gentleman
reviewed the laws which had been passed with reference to
the regulations between French and English fishermen, and
thought that due attention should be paid to the meshes of
the nets. There were two kinds of oyster fishery—the deep-
sea and the shallow-sea ; and although May and June were
the best months for fishing, any fishing vessel found with
oysters after April 30 was liable to forfeiture and the owner
to fine and imprisoment. The fence months were no pro-
tection to the fishery, for while the French and English
fishermen observed the rule, the Dutch fishermen fished on
the beds with impunity. The price of the small native oysters
with which hon. members alone had any acquaintance was
445. the bushel ; while the price of the large, coarse oysters,
which were so largely consumed by the poorer classes,
was Bs. the bushel ; but there was no doubt that the
supply of these was greatly diminished by the artificial re-
striction imposed upon the fisheries. He hoped that one of
the results that would follow from the appointment of a
commission would be the repeal of these fishing disabilities.
Mr. CLAY said it was not to be denied that the greatest
jealousy existed between the line and trawl fishers. The
statements on either side, therefore, should be received with
suspicion. At the same time, from the inquiries he had
made, it appeared to him that the accounts given by the
trawlers were infinitely nearer the truth. Sufficient allow-
ance was not made for the migratory character of fishy nor
for the much more general consumption of fish owing to
the great increase in the locomotive power of the country.
Re believed also that no increase had taken place in the
nthumeybeprutofantheenbdoatotstrenowgalingedg,
thinerterawwolinnigd.heOonn
ethnde
to
othtehre
hantakedyollf osoall:asionit hwaidisbeweenum oioOt
wasoles
sold annually in the streets of London in barrows, But if
established thatnearlyand
impossible to take them with a line. He had had a good
the coast of Ireland, and he never remembered to have
caught more than one or two soles in that way. It seemed
to him that the proposed inquiry could do no good, and
the 29,000,000 of plaice which, according to Mayhew, were
deal of experience in deep- sea fishing, more especially off
therefore that no case had been made out for disturbing an
industry which employed a large amount of capital, as well
as some of the hardiest of the population.
Mr. BENTINCK had some 40 years' experience of the
coast fisheries throughout the United Kingdom, and he
had, no hesitation in stating that his honburable friend
opposite (Mr. Fenwick) had formed a most erroneous im-
pression as to the system of trawling. He certainly never
saw a trawl net of the description referred to by his hon.
friend. He never saw a trawl with a chain attached
to it, and he would undertake to say that no trawl ever
went over the ground at the rate of seven miles an hour.
The rate of travelling was much slower than that, for
the object of the fishermen could not be to fill their nets with
mud. If the decrease in the quantity of fish taken was
caused by trawling, how came' it that at Dover and Brix-
ham, where admittedly the take of fish had alone increased,
trawling was carried on to a greater extent than at any other
places along the coast ? He entirely concurred with his
hon. friend the member for Hull (Mr. Clay), that it would
be most dangerous to interfere with the operation of traw-
ling.

Mr. COLLIER considered that a most unfounded attack
had been made upon the trawlers. He had some know-
ledge of trawling, and he would affirm that no one ever
saw a trawling- net set such as had been spoken to by the
hon. member (Mr. Fenwick), except the hon. mem•
ber himself. He had been in the habit of closely inspect-
ing the fish market of Plymouth, from whence came the
main supply of fish for the London market, and he could
testify to the excellent condition of the fish taken by traw-
ling. It appeared to him that no sufficient case had been
made out for the appointment of a Royal commission, which
would be attended with a great deal of expense and a great
deal of delay.
Mr. LIDDELL supported the motion, and said that all
its advocates wanted was to see the same laws which had
worked so effectually for the preservation of fish in our
rivers applied to the deep-sea fisheries.
Mr. M. GIBSON must confess that the form and terms of
the motion were extremely wide. A commission appointed
to inquire into the whole of the fisheries of the United King-
dom, would have a task before it which would take a very
long time to get through, and—which was by no means a
matter to be lost sight of—would be attended with much
expense. (Hear.) A commission started upon what
might be designated a fishing inquiry—(laughter)—with-
out any definite object—was not a very practical mode of
dealing with a subject. The commission appointed last
year, or the year before, to investigate the destruction of
fish, had a definite object before it. There had been great
quarrels, and even bloodshed, caused by the two modes in
vogue of catching herrings, and it became absolutely ne-
cessary to ascertain what alterations in the practice were
necessary in order to put an end to these hostilities. An
hon. member opposite had called attention to the subject
of the French fisheries. Now they had bound themselves
; andna:L.,
results
migiiitiabfb3:ir,atlit
by a variety of international obligations as regarded
the Channel fisheries,
negotiatingbut at the
apr
jointesent
imnqohmiervn,t
ththbeye
were upon the point of..
undertaken by the French and English Governments
into the working of the laws now in force under that
treaty; so that in that position of affairs it would not
be advisable to start another and an independent commis-
sion Without, therefore, alleging
of a roving character.
that the hon. member had not brought forward a motion of
much interest, he thought the house ought to pause before
assenting to the appointment of a commission, and allow
Lueuteuntegotiations now going on with the French Govern-
he t Proceed without interruption. At the same time
mast candidly \
of aricti.._ y.avow that he could not conceive any kind
the traviers7 which it would be advisable to impose upon
beet:jilt 13110,,CL___SON.believed that the inquiry need neither
to
isilrre.l,l7:o- :aosoliwe
owfaTarwiadthe
itnha:thee
valuable. Partittaariy,Thazgued that, with respeCt
gr.eatrinemil,„.3,iottortr,:sident of the Board
'area miles nf
distance foreign venal Wis tlieveryTr;heeirlud:rheneeePricieBBl:fivsteelacrinewiturieethustot,
was, that trhesaptetehtetosatmhee
eopraesseate°llnti:oerinn----.4-yot cTiniat,efttliat•ht.:lGieot:,linwve that
of
true:.
suci‘hirad. ;rialtaAgielions.the haud
they were
au 6 taken
had refused to assent to the nie
enter into a new engagement with -pr-e.ve:ousaituu.,
surely it was desirable that there shouldbe a
pendent inquiry at home.
The house dividei. The numbers were—
For the motion.. 5O
Against it 27
Majority for the motion . . —23
The announcement of the numbers was received with
loud cheers by the Opposition.
CHARITABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND).

Mr. HASSARD begged leave to call the attention of the
house to the state of the laws relating to charitable dona-
tions and bequests in Ireland, preparatory to moving that,
in the opinion of the house, the laws relating to charitable

property in Ireland ought to be assimilated to those in force
in England, as far as circumstances will permit.
The hon. gentleman was stopped by the SPEAKER,
who said that his attention was called to the fact that there
were not 40 members in the house.
The house was counted after the usual time had been
allowed, and, there not being 40 members present, the house
stood adjourned at a quarter past 8 o'clock.
PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 2.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE ACT.

Motion made and question put, " That this h')use will
immediately resolve itself into a committee to consider
the Act 8 and 9 Vic., for the endowment of the College
of Maynooth, with a view to the repeal of the same, due
regard being had to vested rights and interests." The
house divided—Ayes, 100 ; Noes, 198.