The Sun.
London, England, 1801-03-19 00:00:00

EGYPT.

Mr. 117. DUNDAS said, that a Right Hon.
Relation of his (Mr. Secretary DuNoAs) was
prevented from attending the House to-morrow,
(this day), and he wished to know whether an
Hon. Gentleman who had given notice of a Mo-
tion respeeling Egypt, bad any objection to put
it off for a short time.

Mr. JONES said, he felt some reldiance in
putting off his Motion; however, ,under the cir-
cumstance stated,' he would consent to put it off,
and he would to-morrow or the next day fix ano-
ther day for it.

Lord CAsrI.ER EACH moved, " That the House
should resoKe itself into a Comwittee on the Bill
for suspending the Habeas. Corpus mi in Ire-
land." ,

The Bill went thrott3h the Committee, and the
Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

IRISH MARTIAL LAW BILL.

Lord CAATL E EACH moved, " That the House
should .resolve itself into a Committee on the
Irish "Martial Law

. The House resolved itself into a Committee,
Mr. BRAGGE in the Chair.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that with a view
of rendering this Bill as unexceptionable as pos-
sible, he would move as an alteration, that the
number Seven be requisite to constitute a Court
Martial under this Mt.—This, he observed, was
two -more' than was required in Naval Courts
Martial.

The SPEAKER entered into a short explana-
tion of the different Clauses of the Bill, and the
effete of this proposed Amenlment.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR suggested the propriety
of the House being resumed, for the sake of
moving an Instrufflon to the CoMmittee. He
moved therefore, that the Chairman leave the
Chair, and report progress and ask leave to sit
again. Which being agreed to, and the House
resumed,
Mr. RYDER moved, that it be an Instration
to the Committee to have power to amend said
by providing, Ann the said;Courts Martial
shall' consist of osCets of the Line, and that no
Sentence of Death sball'be primounced by 'a less
number than two-thirds of said Court.
Mr. GREY said, that his objeflion was funda-
mental against the principle of the Bill, as it
tended to invest the Crown, in the person of
the Lord Lieutenant, with a sort of despotic au-
thority ; but if it were the sense of the House
that the' Bill do pass, he should think it his duty
to render its provisions as palatable as possible.
He approved of the principle of the Clause mov-
ed for by the Noble Lord, although he did not
think that it went far enough, nor followed the
provisions of the Mutiny Att. 'By that MI, he
apprehended that in no part of our European Ter-
ritories were Courts:-Martial authorized to pro-
nounce sentence of death, if composed of less
than Thirteen Members ; ,out of Europe, he be-
lieved the number was Five. As he did not think
there could be any want of a sufficient
number of
Officers in the disturbed parts of Ireland to com-
pose Courts-Martial, conformable to the provi-
sions of the Mutiny MI, he should move an
Amendment, that the number of Officers requisite
for cocnposing Courts-Martial,
_under this AEI,
should not be less than Thirteen. And at the
end of this Clause he would propose another
Amendment, that no punishment, whether cor-
poral or death, should be inflicted but by the
seifterite of such Courts-Martial. The reason,
for proposing this Amendment Was, that during.
the late Rcbellion in Ireland, corporal punish-
ments hid been frequently infliaed without the
judgment of Courts-Martial. He did not mean
to impute to the Noble Marquis (CottNwAL
us) any improper use of. power entrusted

to hiin. ; but he wished' this power to be founded
upon known and constitutional principles, and to
guard against its ever being used in a tyran-
nical mariner.

Upon- the Question being, put upon' Lord
CASTLERIAGM'S Motion, that the number Seven
be necessary to constitute a Court Martial in
-Ireland, .

Air. YORKE acknowledged that nothing but
a convietion of this general measure's being neces-
sary for the preservation 9f Ireland could autho-
rise it. He was persuaded that the provisions of
this Bill, and the power given'by it to the Go.
verment of Ireland, were necessary to the safety
and preServation of that Country. He approyed-
of the number Seven, but must objea to so large
a number as Thirteen being necessary to constitute
Courts,Martial ; for in case of partial distur-
bances in Ireland, it would be found very difficult
to coiled such a number of Officers to carry jus-
tice into prompt eNectition, and 'thus, the de-
fence and security of the Loyal SubjeEts of Ire-
land would be taken away. Nor did be see any
'sufficient reason why a greater number of Officers
should be required under this Bill than was done
by the Mutiny A.
Mr. GREY explained—he did not apprehend
there would be any inconvenience or difficulty in
obtaining such a number of Officers as Thirteen to
constitute a Court ; but at any rate, such a pos-
sible inconvenience ought not to be put in the

balance when the security 'of the live, of any of
His Majesty's Subjees was concerned. If it
w'as intended to give to the Lord Lieutenant any
power to punish offences indeperalmt of a Court
Martial, it was mete, mockery to introduce such
a Clause as that now proposed.
Mr. YORKE stated the provisions of the Bill
as to the power granted to the Lord Lieutenant.
The SPEAKER also explained to the same el._
fee, that the Bill went to • give power to the
Lord Lieutenant to institute Courts-Martial an
particular Distries that might be disturbed, not-
withstanding that the Courts of Law in general
were opened, and in this manner to try persons
aeually secured and detained.
Dr. LAWRENCE objeeted to the proposed
number of Seven. He thought there would be no
difficulty in obtaining a sufficient number of Offi-
cers to constitute a Court-Martial composed of
Thirteen, and that it would be even wrong to li-
mit the number of Officers to Thirteen. •• In no
former period of our History, in the midst of the
*greatest public distress, had any such
.power been
given to Government as was contained in the
provisions of this Bill. He objeiled to any un-
usual power being granted to the Lord Lieute-
nant, merely because such power had not; hitherto
been abused. To give legislative authority upon
such ground would lead to despotism. ' He wish_
ed to propose an alteration to the Motion, to.this
effee, " That the provisions of this A4l. by con-
formable to the present Mutiny Aa throughout
s, Kingdom."
.The ATTORNEY GENERAL expressed his
surprize at the oppoThion• made to this Bill,
which only demanded a continuation of the Ae
which had beenpassed in the Parliament of Ire-
land, for the short space of three . months, and
till rarther inquiry shoulttbe made into the actual
situation of Ireland. With regard to the power
invested in the Lord Lieutenant, was it unconsti-
tutional to appeal to the experienee.derived from
the Charaaer of the person, to whom that power
had been, granted, and to the prudent and cauti-
'oils- use which he had made of it in a time of pecu-
liar difficulty and danger I There was no such
analogy between the circumstances whiCh gave
rise to this and to the Mutiny Bill, that there
should be an exaet conformity between them: To
draw off such a number of Officers as Thirteen to
constitute a Court-Martial, in case of an exist-
, ing Rebellion in Ireland, would tend' to cripple
the arm of Gover.omen; in the protceibn of the
Country, in danger from a foreign foe, and from
internal Enemies. An -Act with such a provision
in it, would rather be in his opinion an Act} for the
furtherance of yebellion, and to encourage the in-
surrdlion of the disaffdted. The Honourable
and Learned Gentleman (Dotor LAW& EYCE)
had alluded to some for Mer periods of our Histo-
ry; but for his own part he knew of none in
whial the Country was exposed to such dan-
ger. from 'principles having been broached and
spread, as tended to dissolve all the bonds of
union befween Man and Man, gs well as be-
tween God and Man. To introduce such a ma-
terial alteration into this Bill, as to extend .the
number of Officers necessary to constitute a Court_
Martial to Thirteen, would be such a change in
the Aft which .had passed in the last Irish Par-
liament, as would, in his opinion, amount to a
Breach of Faith with that Country, and convert
it into an Aft for the furtherance of disaffetlion
and rebellion;

, .
Air. GI EYexpressed his. snrprize at tile
warmth with which the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman delivered his sentiments. There' had
been no proof adduced, that within the last two
tears any Juries in Ireland had been intimidated
"from doing their duty, from fears of assasSi--
natiOn ; so far from it, that one Hon. Gentleman
had stated as an argument fOr this measure of Mar-
tial Law, the ,pronenesS. of Juries to condemn ra-
ther than to acquit. He objeacd to the system of
confidence in the Lord Lientenant, and thought
it was the duty of Parliament to guard against
the abuse of his power, and to limit the grant of
it, by the system of stria necessity. But if. the
subjea was to be debated, on the grOond of per,
sonal confidence in the Lord Lieutenant, he must
observe, from the Gazette of last night, that the
power of the Marquis CORNWALLIS. in Ireland
was at an end. What became then of the argu-
ment of experience ? For what possible experi-
ence could be had as to the Administration of
Earl HARDWICKE ? From the suggestion of his
Hon, and Learned Friend, which he approved of,;
the AMendment he 'should propose NWOulti be to
this _effeel, to make the provisions of the Bill
respeding the number of Officers requisite for
constituting Courts Martial in. Ireland exatily
conformable to the present Mutiny Aft through-
out the Kingdom. _ _ _

Mr. DAWSON:declared, that he rose not for
the purpose of giving any opposition to His Ma-
jesty's Ministers, or of crippling the energies of
Government. The principle of the •Bill he could
not cordially approve of, nor from any local ac-
quaintance he had with Ireland; was he convinced
of its necessity : at the same titne,from the state.
ments which h*t been made by different Gentle-
men from other parts of that Country, he ac-,
quiesccd in the measure, from the necessity of it
which they had stated to exist. To render the
Bill as palatable as may be, he approvNl of in-
creasing 'the number of Officers necessary for con-
stituting a Court Martial in Ireland, and to this,
he wished to add an Amendment as to the quali-
fication of age. One reason tbr proposing the
age to be at least twenty-one was, i:ot onlj, on
account of the general propriety in cases of trial
for life or death, but, also on account of national
justice ; lest, owing to insufficient and incapable
Judges, the guilty culprit should escape.
General LOFTS- observed, that the Hon.
Gentleman had professed a wish that the qualifi-
cation as to age should be twenty one, and likev
wise that this Bill 'should be assimilated 'to the
Mutiny Act; but he must remind the Hon. Gentl-
eman, that that MI all Owed of the age of Seven-
teen. He thought the number of Officers would
be sufficiently large if fixed at Seven. Ireland at
this time he considered as in great danger, and
in his opinion it Was highly advisable that the
present Bill should. pass. . :

Mr. PRENCIt 1;ord te:,-ilmony to the_ good
Administration of !Marquis Cc?Rxw'ALl.ls; Juel
was persua(!ed that his lenity had saved Ireland:
Lord De B.I..4QUIEPE expressed his-surprize
to have heard- an lionourable. Gentleman state;

that within the two last years there had been no
instance of any Irish Juries being intimidated
from doing their duty, when he could state in-
stances, during that time, of ten Jurors having
been assastinated, and a Gentleman of veracity
had told him, he could give hiion 200 names of
jurors-intimidated, or ill-treated. With respe&
to the Courts-Martial,.such proofs had they given

_
of lenity as well as justice, that Culprits had ex-
presio a .sash, in various 'instances, to be tried
by them in preference to Juries. After vindi.
caring the proceedihgs of the Courts-Martial, his
Lordship said he
,should oppose Mr. GREY'S
,Amendment.

Mr► GREY, Lord de BLAQUIERE, and DG
LAWRENCE severally explained.
Mr. OGLE approved of the Bill. It was
necessary to prevent the principles' of Rebellion
from again prevailing in Ireland. He did not
wonder that English Gentlemen objcned to the
Bill ; so did the Gentlemen of Ireland, till im-

perious necessity induced them to vote for it. He
approved of the enlargementOf, the number from
Three to Seven ; and vindicated the principles -
and condua of the Officers wlio, had composed the
Courts• Martial in Ireland. " I tell you," said
Mr. OGLE, ‘.• take care
.of a convulsion in a
Ire-
land ; I tell you, such convulsion will shake
the Empire to it;very foundation. What interest
can the Gentlemen bf Ireland have in deceiving
you We were strangers/ and. ye took us in-
most stand or fall -together'. Ireland is rotor,:
your affair. Sua res agitur; paries cam proximus
ardet.f4

Mr: FRENGH and Mr. OGLE explained.
Lord C ASTLE RE AGH said, that in limiting
the number of Office'rs to Seven, he thought it.was
extending it as far as was consistent with the
public satety for in disturbed Counties a greater
number of Officers could not be spared. The
entire efficacy Of the measure depended upon
the execution being prompt. But supposing that
the Commanding Officer of such a County as
Wickfow, when disturbed, found it necessary tci
summon two or three Courts Martial, and these
consisting each pf Thirteen Officers, it was evi-

dent that great inconvenience, and injury to
the public safety would be the result, and -that

it viould be necessary to send the guilty culpriti
out of the. County, and prevent their being tried'
where their crimes were committed. The case
of the Mutiny Aft did not apply to the presedi
measure, founded upn the suabsition of Retrel:
lion. The Soldier might be left under the gette.:,
ral proN;ision of the Mutiny Aft, without sini3);c
danger to the Country as in cases of
when summary punishment became nec'essarf.
Mr. DENNIS BROWN said, that this quelfr,
tion was important not only to Ireland, but albs
the whole Empire i • but as' it had been already so
amply discussed, he did not know that he should
have troubled the House to-night, if it had rut
been for something:which had fallen from so Hoz4
Friend of his. He could not help observing,
however, that the Debate had to.night gone to an
unnecessary length ; for much of what had been

said, had nothing to do with the Question- now
before the Committee, which was only a (211tS.
don, what number, it was proper to state, below
which no Court:Nartial should be held, and that
number was now proposed to be. Seven. Much of
what had been said upon this subje& also, wag
the result of Gentlemen's judging of things from

What theihad felt in this Country ; but hee-begged
leave to say, that without local knowledge, it
Was impossible to judge corrc&ly upon this subjea.
—The seeds of Rebellion were often hidden un- .
.der a tranquil appearance of things, and when quei_
led for a time, it rose up again—it was an Hydra,
which nothing but such a measure as this could
possibly destroy. At one place which he could
name
,in Ireland, and indeed it was in. the Coun-
ty in which he resided, 'the People appeared to ht,
as quiet as they were in England on the Monday,
and on the Saturday following there appeared to
be 20,000 men ready to join the French. I
farms they
was a great meeting-of People assembled for thm
purpose of lowering the' rents of' the farm
occupied, and there was a meeting of Landlords
to take that .subjea into consideration : they
agreed to offer gentle conciliatory measures, and
-while agreeing on such conciliatory Measures, the
insurgents and Incendiaries burnt their !lotuses;
and after this, the Farmers,in great numbers, re..
fused, to as as Jurymen at the Courts of Justice,
saying, 'that as-most of their property was move-
able, they should lose it all if they took any part
against the Rebels. It had been argued upon
this Bill, as if it were intended to make Martial
Law generally superior to the Common LaW, and
that. it had' been contended it should he so ; upon
which he.could only observe, that no such thing
had ever beenitaintained or thought •of by the
. advocates for this measure. It was not Martial
Law but Rebellion put down the Common Law
in Ireland, and Martial restored the Common
Law. was decidedly in favour of this _Bill.
Colonel MARTIN was a friend to this Bill,
not only as. it bad been approved of by
my Lord
CoastwAws, which was no slight'praise
to it,
but also' on account of the time_ in which it was
introduced, arid which did great honour'to the
Parties concerned in bringing it forward, as WOl •
as to those who approved of it. He thought
that the same mode of defence to' the loyal
I
habitants cf Ireland; that had been -given to and
exercised by Lord CO RN UAL LIS, 'Should be con.
tinued .to his successor. He defended the, Speech
deiiveled`tb.riight by the-ArroaN EY GENERAL,
who, he said, had spoken with warmth and' ani.
nation, but also in the same manner, as he.wished
every man in that House, with zeal and sineerityi
without PassioN Some Gentlemen thought that
as this -measure was well used by my, 'Lord
Co rc-stw ALCIs, and as he was . corning away
from Ireland, there was an end of the, argument,
upon the propriety of confiding in a prudent use
being made "of this measure—in his opinion there
st'a.s not an end of the argument, for although Lord
COANWALLIS was eminent beyond dispute, for