The Sun.
London, England, 1830-06-15 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.)

The Marquis of CHANDOS presented a petition
from merchants and planters residing at Glasgow,
praying for a reduction of the duties on colonial
produce.
Lord MILTON presented a similar petition from
the merchants of Leeds, and they also prayed for an
equalization of duties on East and West India sugars.
Lord MILTON presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Huddersfield and its vicinity, praying
for the abolition of negro slavery.
Lord A. HILL presented a petition from the
freeholders of the county of Down, against any in-
crease of taxation in Ireland.
Lord CASTLEREAGH supported the prayer
of the petition.
Lord A. HILL presented a petition from the
churchwardens and Protestant inhabitants of the
parish of St. Patrick, in the county Down, against
the Vestry Act.
Mr. FERGUSSON moved for returns showing
the state of business in die Court of Session, of each
term since the year 1826.—Ordered.
Lord MOUNTCHARLES presented a petition
from the freeholders of the county of Donegal, against
the introduction of the poor laws into Ireland.
The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition from
the landed proprietors of the same county, against
any increase of duty on Irish spirits.
General HART supported the prayer of the

petition.
General HART presented a similar petition from
another place, the name of which did not reach us.
The petitioners also prayed against any increase of
the stamp duties.
General ARCIIDALL and Mr. O'CONNELL sup-
ported the prayer of the petition.
%Ir. A. CAMPBELL presented a petition from
the Directors of the Chamber of Commerce at
Glasgow, against the Northern Road Bill.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the
President and Vice-President of the Chamber of
Commerce, and also from the boroughreeve and in-
habitants of Manchester, against the Half-pay Ap-
prentices' Bill.
Mr. PENDARVIS presented a petition from the
county of Corn wall, praying for a•refortn ofParliamenr.
Sir R. VYVYAN bore testimony to the great
respectability of the parties from whom this petition
proceeded, but he could not agree with them that
the distresses of the country were caused by a want
of reform in that House. A- great cause of them was
to be found in the immense amount of the national
debt, arising from the expenses of the late war.
Lord LOWTHER presented a petition from
Stevenage, against the Northern Road Bill. The
Noble Lord took that opportunity of stating that
his name had been introduced into the Bill without
his consent or knowledge, and that when the Bill
came on for discussion, he should move to have his
name struck out.
Lord MORPETH, understanding that it would
be convenient to many Hoe. Members, postponed
the further consideration of the report of the
Northern Roads Bill to Thursday.
Mr. LAWLEY presented a petition from the
Directors of the Chamber of Commerce at Birming-
ham, praying for the equalization of the duties on
East and 'West India sugars.
Lord LOWTHER brought up the report of the
Dean Forest Bill, which was read, and ordered to
be taken into further consideration on• Thursday,
and the Bill to be printed.
The adjourned debate on the London, and 13ir-

mingham Junction Canal Bill was further postponed
to the 24th instant.
Lord NUGENT postponed the presentation of
the petition relating to the imposition of oaths to
Thursday.
Mr.HUME wished to know from the Hon. Mem-
ber opposite (Mr. Hyde Villiers) whether he in-
tended to bring forward his motion, which stood for
to-morrow, on the subject of commercial relations
wiih Portugal. He (Mr. Hume) had two motions
to bring forward, and of course would be guided by
the course the Hon. Member might take. There
was also a motion on the Corn Laws standing for
that evening, but he believed if the other motions
came on, it would probably be too late for its dis-

cussion.
Mr. HYDE VILLIERS said, that he had put
off his motion twice before, but be was determined
to bring it on to-morrow.
Mr. FIUME expressed his intention of bringing
on his motion for withdrawing the settlement at
Sierra Leone.
Mr. WILMOT HORTON presented a petition
from Great Wickstead, in the county of Leicester,
in favour of the principle of emigration as a relief to
the poor. We understood the Right Hon. Gentle.
men to say, that he would defer his motion on this
subject to next Session.
Mr. SLANEY postponed the Poor-rates An-
nuities' Bill to Friday, and the Poor-laws' Amend-
ment Bill from Wednesday to Monday next.
WAYS AND MEANS.—SUGAR DUTIES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving
itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL wished to
know from the Right Hon. Gentleman in what or-
der the public business would come on that evening.
It would be a great convenience to many Hon.
Members to know in particular whether the Sale of
Beer Bill would be brought on that evening.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said he should like to bring it on that evening, if
possible; for, if it were not brought on to-night, it
would have little chance of being discussed to-
morrow, as it was probable that the discussion on
the Chancery Bill would occupy much time—if time
admitted of its being brought forward at all, after
the motions which stood for to-morrow.
Mr. FERGUSSON thought it was very impro-
bable that the Bill could be brought forward to-
morrow, after the notices.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, then it would be better to have it understood
that it could not be brought on to-night.
Mr. R. GORDON wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman whether there was any truth in the re-
port that it was the intention of Ministers to aban-
don the Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, there certainly was no truth in any such re-
port ; Ministers were firm in the intention of pro-
ceeding with the Bill.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, then it may be
taken for granted that the Bill would not come on
before Thursday.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
The Marquis of CHANDOS said, he wished to
take that opportunity of calling the attention of the
House to the situation of the West India planters, in
consequence of the high rate of West India produce.
These, particularly rum and sugar, were so heavily
taxed, that it was not possible for the persons whose
capital was embarked in them to bear up against it
any longer. They had borne their heavy burdens
for a long time without murmuring, but they were
now reduced to that state that they were obliged
earnesly to solicit relief from Parliament. They had
to contend against a heavy war duty of 275. per
cwt., which, with the dull market for their produce,
brought them to a state in which they could obtain
no return on their eapital, but, on the contrary, they
were daily enduring great losses. When it was con-
sidered that out of the price they now received for
their sugars, the West India planters bad to pay an
immense outlay, it would be admLted that it was
impossible they could continue to bear up against
the pressure upon them. This situation was the
more oppressive, as there could be no doubt that a
reduction of the duty would not occasion any dimi-
nution of revenue, as it was seen that when a reduc-
tion of duty took place on colonial coffee, the con-
sumption had very materially increased, as was
proved by the returns before the House. The same
result would no doubt be found with respect to
other articles. As one instance amongst many that
might be cited of the distressed condition of the
West India planters, he would mention, that some
of them who had sent their children to school were
obliged to bring them home, not being able to defray
the expence any longer. The Noble Lord concluded
with moving the following resolution as an amend-
ment :—" That the duty of 275. per hundred
weight on the colonial sugars, which has been an-
nually voted for several years past, is inconsistent
with a due regard to West India property, and in-
jurious to the general interests of the public."
Mr. MARRYAT seconded the motion, and con-
tended that the West India planters were at present
suffering under such a depression as to render Le-
gislative relief a matter of absolute necessity, if the
House professed to have a due regard for the legiti-
mate interests of the body.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said that he entertained, in common with the Noble
Lord and the Hon. Gentleman, a warm and un-
affected sympathy in the sufferings of the class
alluded to; but he could not lose sight of the con-
sideration, that if they consented to make a large
reduction, as was now recommended, they must be
also prepared to supply the consequent defalcation
in the revenue, in order that the national resources
might not suffer by the change. It ought to be re-
membered that the House had very recently deter-
mined to afford relief in another quarter; and by so
doing, had pressed reduction to the utmost limits cf
which it was susceptible, consistently with the
exigencies of the State. Many had even gone so
far as to say that they had acted on the principle of
reduction to a greater extent than prudence would
have permitted. He was far from being insensible
to the difficulties under which the planters laboured,
and felt anxious to afford them every possible relief;
but be was still more desirous to maintain the na-
tional credit and preserve unimpaired the resources
of the empire, without which they could not do
justice to the claims of any interest whatsoever.—
As the Noble Lord bad moved his resolution as an
amendment, he, under the circumstance., had no
alternative but to adhere to his original motion. If,
however, the Noble Lord had permitted the House
to go first into a Committee, he would have reason
to be satisfied that the proposition which lie in-
tended to submit was calculated to afford great im-
mediate relief to the West Indian body, without
prejudice to the resources of the country. Where
the average price of sugar was 30s. per hundred
weight, he should propose a gradual scale of reduc-
tion from the quality at ls. above the average down
to the lowest classes of sugar in the British market.
The reduction on the inferior qualities would amount
to 75., whilst the reduction on thut at Is. above the
average would not exceed Is. Gd., leaving an inter-
mediate scale between the extremes of 7s. arid
ls. Gd., according to the quaiity of the sugar.—
Such a reduction was best calculated to afford relief
to these planters who most needed it, and also to
the humbler classes of the public who were least
able to purchase this article of consumption. He
was moreover prepared to show that the probability
of loss to the Exchequer was in certain respects
limited, and to explain the mode by which the ex-
pectant deficiency might be made up. It was not
necessary to do more then, than give the foregoing
brief outline of the proposed measure; but he
thought he had said sufficient to show that Govern-
ment was neither forgetful of the distress of the
planters, nor unmindful of the interests of the com-
munity.
Mr. HUME inquired whether it was the Right
Hon. Gentleman's intention to apply the graduated
scale which be had mentioned to sugars coining from
the East Indies ? To which
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER

replied, that he should defer further explanation until
the House was in Committee.
Mr. BARING hoped that the Noble Lord would
be induced to withdraw his motion until after the
promised statement should have been given in the
Committee.
The Marquis of CIIANDOS replied, that he
should persevere in the motion.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, he concurred with the
Noble Lord in thinking that the duties in question
might be considerably decreased without creating
any material diminution in the revenue; but when a
Minister had Stated that he had a proposition to
make, he thought it would be but fair to wait till
he should have communicated his plans, when it
would be in the power of the Noble Lord, or any
other gentleman, to move reductions. in Committee.
(Hear.)—He was unwilling to vote against the re-
solution, but he wished to hear what Government
had to propose before he was called on to consent to
it. In his judgment, the pressure of which the
planters complained was partly attributable to causes
which it was not for the Legislature to control; but
he hoped, at the same time, that they would give
relief to the utmost extent that was in their power.
Sir A. GRANT recommended the Noble Lord
to withdraw his resolution, as it was only fair to
hear the expected proposition of Government before
they came to a dec►s►on ; more particularly because it
was obvious that the principle on which the propo-
sition would be founded was likely to afford relief,
as well to those amongst the planters who were
suffering peculiar distress, as to the lower classes of
the British public who dealt only in the coarser
sugars. It would therefore more completely answer
the proposed end than any general reduction what-
ever. Whether it would give sufficient relief was a
question yet to be proved.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS thought that the Noble
Lord would not be discharging his duty to the par-
ties with whom he was connected, if he did not
persist in bringing forward his proposition, and said
he should vote with him in the event of dividing

the House.
11Ir. W. TAYLOR expressed himself to the
same effect.
Mr. R. GRANT said, that although he had for-
merly given notice of a motion on the subject of
reduction, he could not refrain from observing that
it was quite unusual and unparliamentary to perse-
vere, as the Noble Lord seemed to intend doing,
after a Minister had acknowledged the same princi-
ple, and had desired to be allowed to explain his own
proposition, which, so far as it went, was a confir-
mation of that made by the Noble Lord. They
therefore should not prejudge the question, but re-
serve their opinion till the proposition, of which they
had heard only the outline, should be developed.
He did not profess to know more particularly what
that proposition might be, and he rather apprehended
that it did not go to the extent that he desired; for
no allusion to East Indian sugars had hitherto been
made, nor had it been stated whether sugars of all
kinds were to he admitted without duty or draw-
backs, but he was willing to reserve his opinion till
he was'more thoroughly informed as to the intentions

of Government.
Mr. MANNING said he should support the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord.
The House having divided, the numbers ap-
peared—
For the original motion 102
Fur the amendment 23
Majority,.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee
of Supply ; Sir A. GRANT in the Chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
thought it adviseable to make a statement to the
Committee on the subject of the Sugar Duties.
He had been long made sensible of the unfortunate
situation of the West India Proprietors. The
motion of the Noble Lord, which he had felt it
necessary to resist, was for such a reduction of duty
as he could not consent to without risking such a
portion of the Revenue as might endanger the
national credit. He felt it, therefore, impossible to
accede to the motion of his Noble Friend. The
proposition he should have to propose was much
more limited. After making such very large re-
ductions in the Revenue as had lately been made—
such a very large reduction of taxation, that it was
thought by some persons that he had gone a great
deal too far—he could not hazard any very great
further reduction without danger. That reduction
had been made to_ give relief to a very suffering
class of persons. He was well aware, that by re-
ducing the duty on sugar there would be great
additional consumption; and he meant to propose
such a reduction as he thought best calculated to
give relief to the grower of sugar, and promote its
consumption, without injuring the revenue. The
estates which produced sugars of the finest quality
were, he was informed, not in such a bad situation as
those which produced the coarse sugars. He had re-
ceived from an Hon. Friend of his, whose knowledge
on this subject was both extensive and accurate, the
particulars of two estates of the same extent, and
cultivated by the same number of negroes ; but one
produced the finer kinds of sugar, and the other the
coarser. If the House would allow him, he would
state in detail the particulars of these two estates.
Both estates produced 150 hogsheads each. In the
first case, the estate which produced the fine sugar,
the 150 hogsheads sold for 665. per cwt. and the
gross sum they fetched was 6,4381. ; the rum was
sold for 4,1311.; the total gross produce selling for
10,5691. The first charge on it was the duty to the
Crown, which, on the sugar, was 2,630/., and on
the ruin 3,3401. The additional charge the proprie-
tor bad to pay, such as insurance, freight, commis-
sion, &c. amounted to 1,1601. The charges in the
island, called colonial charges, amounted to 9001.
The negro clothing and food and other expences
amounted to 6001., making together a sum of
1,500/. The whole charges on the 150 hogsheads
left the proprietor a profit of 1,9391. In the second
estate to which he wished to call the attention of the
House, the sugars produced were all of inferior qua-
lities, and produced on an average about 465. a hun-
dred weight. This estate produced 150 hogsheads
of sugar yearly, and the whole income derived from
it produced to the proprietor was something short
of 100/. yearly. The Government, although unable
to afford that general relief which the situation of
the great body of the West Indians demanded, con-
sidered, however, that they had here an ample field
in which they might attempt to give some partial
relief without affecting the interests of any others
who might be entitled to claim from them equal con-
siderations. The way in which he had intended to
effect it was this :—On every hundred weight of
sugar a duty of 275. had hitherto been collected,
no matter of what quality the sugar might be
composed. Undoubtedly this method of taking
the duty presented great advantages as regarded
the collection of the revenue, or the prevention
of any fraud by substituting one sugar for another;
arid he was only induced to depart from the
system which prevailed by an anxiety to afford
the West India interest such a temporary relief as
would. form an advantage to them at present, and be
a guide to the Government afterwards for the pro-
secution, with leas risk and more certainty, of a fair
and satisfactory result in any further reduction of the
duty which they might think proper to propose.
The measure, therefore, which lie was about to pro-
pose would be both temporary and experimental.
It was well known; to many of the gentlemen
around him that the prices of sugars in London
were taken upon the average of each weekly sole
in the London market. He proposed, then, that
when the average price is 305., that then there be
paid on all sugars that do not exceed that price by
Is., a duty of Is. Gil. less than the 275., or, in
other words, a duty of 11. 55. Gd. That on sugar of
less value than 30s. by 3s. there be paid a duty of
11.45. 6d. That on sugars of less value than 30s.
by 43. there shall be paid a duty of 11.25. Gd.; and
that when the sugars were of less value than 305.
by then there shall be a duty of 11., making the
duty on a sugar which cost 255. only 205., and a
reduction on the lowest price of coarse sugar to the
extent of 7s. per hundred. If he was told that this
plan presented so many difficulties as to render it

likely the attempt to carry k into effect would pro '
duce a loss to the revenue, his answer was, that
although he might calculate upon some artifice being
used to produce a depression in the price of sugars,
yet he did not apprehend it would be such as to
cause any material loss to the revenue. With re-.
gard to the selection of the low-priced sugars foe
the purpose of a reduction of the duty, he might 0b...
serve, that as the East India sugar comes into ims
mediate competition with the higher-priced West
India sugars, so long as that competition continued
it would not be necessary to adopt any measures for
producing a reduction in their price. Those sugars
on which a reduction, of 7s. of duty would be made
were those which came most into consumption among
the great body of the people : and ha fully expected
that this reduction of 7s. would make an increase in
that consumption of at least one-third, which in-
crease would compensate in some measure for the
loss of the duty. It would also enable them to
ascertain, by way of experiment, how far the reduc-
tion of duties on an article of extensive consumption
among the lower classes, and of which they had en-
joyed till now the means of obtaining but a very ,
moderate supply, might enable them to make a still
further reduction without any great injury to the
revenue. The principle of lowering duties, and
thereby increasing the revenue by adding to the s
consumption, was one which he was at all times
anxious to see carried into effect, wherever it could
be done without permanent injury to the revenue of
the country. It was necessary, however, to admit
at once, that although he calculated on an increased
consumption producing some increase of duty, yet,
as the whole of the duty thus given up amounted to
350,0001. or 400,0001., and he could not calculate
on more than one-half of that being returned, there
was still a deficiency of 200,000/. to be made good.
As that sum, therefore, must be taken from other
sources to make up the estimated amount of the
year's revenue, he thought he should be dealing more
fairly with the House, to state now the method by
which he proposed to make good the deficiency.
Relying on the increased consumption producing
one-half, he thought the remainder could be found
in some modification of those duties which he had
announced as his intention at the commencement of
the Session to impose on English, Scotch, and
Irish spirits. It would be recollected that he '
stated the new duty to be ls. on English spirite•
and 2d. on Scotch and Irish. Since that time, how-
ever, the Hon. Member for Carlisle had sug-
gested that the great difference between Scotch and
English spirits created by this duty would tend much
to increase smuggling. He (the Chancellor of the Ex"
chequer) confessed that this objection had a great
effect on his mind; and subsequent inquiries had sa'
tisfied him that the method of doing justice to all
parties would be to impose a duty of 6d. a gallon on
Scotch and Irish spirits, and at the same time to put
a duty of 6d. also on English spirits, and also on
rum, so as to place the whole of the Colonial and
British spirits on the same footing. From this alters'
tion he confidently calculated upon an additional re'
venue of 200,0001. He had only to state now that
his Right Hon. Friend who was at the head of the
Board of Trade would in a short time state what he,
proposed to do with respect to that other branch of
the subject which was connected with the refining
of sugar, the Act for regulating which expired at the
end of the present Session.
On the question that the Resolutions be read,
Mr. C. GRANT expressed a hope that the Chan'
cellor of the Exchequer would not push forward the
discussion on such important Resolutions as these,
without sufficient time being allowed for their con.
sideration. It would be better, he thought, to print
the Resolutions, and fix some day for the debate to
be taken on them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that in the ordinary course the Resolutions
would be printed immediately after they had been
reported to the Howe. He had no objection t°
comply with his Right Hon. Friend's request; 10
14
the difficulty he felt was one of time, because tbd
Sugar Duties Act expired on the sth July next, 0° /
he was anxious to get through some of the preps°.
tory stages of the alterative measures as soon as pos.'
sible. He thought the House might permit him to
report the Resolutions; and when they were printed,
to take the discussion on a future day.
Mr. BERNAL begged the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to recollect that the plan contained in these
Resolutions came by surprise on the House, and WO
perfectly novel to almost all the Members.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE/1,-1
repeated his willingness to allow all time for the
proper examination of the Resolutions; but he
thought that could be done quite as well if the Be'
solutions were now passed through the Committee'
Mr. HUSKISSON said it was quite impassible
that the Committee could understand the nature 0
these intricate Resolutions without much considers
tion. The ascending and descending scale of dutiel
was peculiarly intricate, and he thought it would be
much better to have them printed, and adjourn th'
discussion until that day week. The Right HO;
Gentleman had explained a portion of his plan, 10)
he had forgotten to say anything on the subject
the drawbacks—a question intimately connectsj
with the intended alteration. The Right I-10,
Gentleman should also recollect, that the scale °,l
duties on spirits was totally different from all he 1110
stated at the commencement of the Session.
point of fact, the duty which was to have been le;
was now to be 6d., and an additional 6d. was to 1)
laid on rum—a spirit on which the present rate °
duty of duty in Ireland amounted almost to a pro
'
hibition. It was a very questionable matter, tool
whether the measure of the Right Hon. Gentienni:
would operate as a relief to the West Indians.
most distressed of all the West Indians were otl;
own colonies, which produced very little of the
kind of sugar to which the Right Hon. Gentleillej
gave a reduction of duty ; while the least distresseo
colonies—sueh as Demerara and others—sent I
this country a vast quantity of that very kind °
sugar. However good, therefore, the Right I-10°:
Gentleman's plan might be in principle, it was
tremelv doubtful whether it would not fail altoge'
ther in practice. He therefore saw additional roe'
sons for delay.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUO
pledged himself to explain the question of drat
backs fully at another opportunity.
Mr. HUME objected strongly to the tempo!'

nature of the Right Hon. Gentleman's messur:.
He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman xvolli.
see the propriety of doing away with the 275. 4
duty altogether.
After a few words from the CIIANCELLOR of I
EXCHEQUER and Mr. BRIGHT,
Mr. CHARLES PALLMER gave notice of I,‘
intention to move, in Committee, that the dtl
on sugars imported into Ireland be reduced one 10
Mr. JOHN WOOD said, that of all those CO
nected with the trade in sugar, no class was so roi'l,
distressed as the sugar refiners, and he hoped 041;
would not be forgotten in the Chancellor of t
Exchequer's arrangement. ,
P
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS hoped that the -,li
cession on the subject of the spirit duties, inclucoo
the imposition of the additional duty on rum, vvo4ii,
be taken at the same time as the discussion on le,
sugar duties, as they were a part and parcel, as ss‘
as a consequent of those duties. ,
Mr. BERRIES, in reply to the Hon. Med))
for Preston said it was his intention at the earl's;
opportunity to state the changes to be introdoe'
into the Act which regulated the refining of sit
Mr. WARBURTON begged to ask when t
Right lion. Gentleman intended to explain his,
tentions with regard to the Customs Duties 13'
Mr. HERRIES had given way to the more
portant measures of his Right Hon. Friend ' .
Chancellor of the Exchequer), but it was his,
tention at an early day to bring the subject be'
the House. A
Mr. HUME, after observing that the Court
Directors for India gave themselves little tro
with respect to its affairs, begged to know if ,

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