The Sun.
London, England, 1863-06-19 00:00:00

them emigrate.', But had the people themselves been con-

suited ?

Mr. FERRAND—I presentel several petitions on the

subject.

Mr. COBDEN continucd—And still more, had the cost
been considered P (Hear, hear.) It would not be enough to
disembark them cn the shores of America ; they must also

be supplied with capital in the shape of houses, seed, tools,
and all other necessary equipment ; but in that case the cost

would amount to a sum such as they had never contem-

plated, nor had entered into the calculations of the writers,
poets, and romancers of Dorsetshire and Wessex, who for-
warded it as a compendious receipt—(laughter)—for Lanca-
_ .

shire distress, and assailed with imputations the Lancashire
manufacturers, because they did not follow the prescription
. _

and allow the people to emigrate. (Laughter,) He did not
wish to be misunderstood. He did not speak in the interest
of capital, nor did he say that emigration was a bad thing.

But he maintained it was not an expedient worthy of con-
sideration until they saw how much it would cost, and what
would be the effect when the operatives were landed on the
shores of America or Australia. (Hear, hear.) He had, in-
deed, always been of opinion that there was no specific which
could be called a complete remedy for the present distress.
The bill before them was certainly not of that character,
but by co-operation it might be made to mitigate the evil
under which they were suffering. It was only a permissive
measure, but he hoped that all the local authorities in the
cotton districts would feel that it was their duty also to do
their share, and would, to the fullest of the powers which
the measure placed in their hands. (Hear, hear.) He was
afraid that there was every reason to expect that next winter
would be worse than last. The savings of the operatives had
been spent, the credit of the small shopkeepers had been
exhausted, large public subscriptions could not be counted
upon, and he•therefore feared the prospect was such as he
stated. Under these circumstances, the best that could be
done was to provide employment for the people, and to
mitigate the pressure of the rates upon the class of small
ratepayers by making such employment reproductive and
borrowing for long periods. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FERRAND, in explanation, said that he had at-
tended a meeting at Manchester, when 27 delegates from
that district and Cheshire advocated emigration as the chief
remedy for their distress.
Sir G GREY said that the hon. member was the only
one who really objected to the bill, and that his objections
were in several instances founded on misapprehension of its
provisions. The Government did not intend to undertake
the responsibility of providing employment for the unem-
ployed operatives, but were simply willing to assist the local
authorities in doing so. (Hear, hear.) He sincerely
hoped, if Parliament should grant the facilities, that advan-
tage would be taken of them in the distressed districts, and
that, charging the rates for the purpose, they would pro-
vide the people with such employment as thefr circum-
stances required. As to the question of wages, he thought

they should be on the same scale a 4 similar work was re-
munerated in the part of the country in which it took
place; but, as a great portion of it might be performed by
task-work, the wages would be in proportion to the skill
and industry of the labourer. He quite concurred in what
had fallen from the hon. member for Rochdale concerning
emigration. The Government would, indeed, do wrong
to throw the slightest obstacle in the way; but for the
purposes of wholesome and useful emigration they should
have—first, people desirous to emigrate ; secondly,
people fit from age and physical capacity to labour at
the rough work of a colonist; and, thirdly, colonies willing
to receive them. (Hear.) It was said that a large sum was
likely to be sent from Australia in aid of emigration. If so,
the Government would not throw the slightest obstacle in
the way of the agents for those colonies in endeavouring to

induce people whom they thought would b^ useful to them
to emigrate; but any attempt on the part of the Govern-
ment to force emigration would, he believed, be not only
unadvisable, but prejudicial. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. SCULLY also disapproved of wholesale emigration,
and urged that it was much more suitable to the condition
of Ireland than England.
Mr. BAZLEY feared very much that certain apparent

indications of returning prosperity in the manufacturing
districts would mislead the public, and restrain the efforts
of the benevolent. But he could state with confidence to

the house, that the diminution in the numbers of those re-
ceiving relief was entirely owing to the joint influences of
emigration and the absorption of the operatives in employ-
ments altogether different from their accustomed pursuits.
The consumption of the raw material at the moment was
the most reliable proof that the cotton mills were still closed
to the operatives. In ordinary times the consumption was
50,000 bags a-week, whereas now it was only 5,000 bags.
It was said that new mills were being erected. Well, he
warned the house that it took three years to prepare a mill
for the manufacture of cotton ; and, therefore, the building
of mills at that moment has only indicated that the old
policy of the cotton districts still prevailed. lie was of
opinion that the amplest provision ought to be made for
the coming winter; and while he entirely approved of
the bill before the house, he could have wished that the
India and Colonial Departments had made an effort to pro-
vide a larger supply of the raw material. The house should
remember that the present proposal was irregular, and in-
consistent with sound economic principle.
Sir F. CROSSLEY said his hon. friend the member for
Rochdale had asserted, as one reason why the distress would
be very severe during the coming winter, that the subscrip-
tion lists had been closed. Now he should be very sorry
if such an idea were to get abroad, because the subscription
lists ought not to be closed, and he was fully convinced the
public would be willing to renew their subscriptions. He
quite approved of the bill introduced by the Government,
and he earnestly hoped the various localities would avail
avail themselves of its provisions. But at the same time it
should be borne in mind that the employment to be ob-
tained under the bill almost entirely applied to the male
population, for females could not make roads or do the
other rough work which it contemplated.
The bill was then read a second time; and in reply to
Mr. COBDEN,
Mr. VILLIERS named that day (Thursday) week as the
day on which the committee would be taken.
The house then went into committee of supply.
IRISH NATIONAL EDUCATION.

Sir R. PEEL proposed the vote for Irish education,
amounting to £306,663. The vote showed an increase of.
£15,112 over the vote for last year, and it was owing to the
greater number of schools which were now open, and to the
increase in the salaries of those engaged in teaching.
Major O'REILLY then proceeded to denounce the model

schools which had been established in connection with the

National system. His principal objections to them were that
they were under the superintendence and patronage of the
central authorities, and that they educated children in large
numbers wh7se parents could afford to pay for their educa-
tion The hon. gentleman then quoted the case of E nniscor-
thy, where the number of children was 31, and the cost £268,

or over £8 per head, and the pupils were all children of
persons in good circumstances. He, therefore, called upon
the Government to put a stop to the system. The hon.

gentleman also alluded to some other cases, and compared
thus with a large attendance of children at Roman Catholic
schools. He should, therefore, move the reduction of the
vote by
£263, as the best method of obtaining the gradual
abolition of the schools he complained of.
Mr. BAGWELL opposed theamendment, which, though
possibly just, was not genet ous.
Mr. MAGUIRE supported the amendment. They were
not the foes of education in Ireland, and he asked the hon.
member for Clonmel to banish the contrary idea from his
mind. He opposed the monopoly of education being given
to the Government. The model school at Cork would be a
failure, or, if a success, it would be to the ruin of the free
schools, He urged that some deference should be paid to
the Catholic hierarchy, who were opposed to the present
system of model schools.
Mr. P. URQUHART supported the reduction of thevote.
Colonel GREVILLE said the condemnation of the system
by the Protestant and Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland
was a proof that it did not give satisfaction.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND, as one of

the commissioners, had acted from a conviction that he was
doing the beat for Ireland. He traced the history and ope-
ration of the system, as opposed to that urged by its oppo-
nents. It had never been contended that the system was a
perfect one ; but it had worked substantial benefit to the
whole of the people of Ireland, who had accepted it as one
of the greatest blessings that had ever been conferred on the
country. Since January 1, 1861, 520 persons had came into
connection with the board, and there had been 136 applica-
tions for building grants, He defied contradiction when he
said that during the whole of the long time these schools
had been established, not a single case of proselytism could
be charged against them. (Hear, hear.) And as to the
objections which had been raised to the model schools he
contended that no comprehensive system of education ever
had been, or ever could be, established any where without
the assistance of model schools. The celebrated Dr. Doyle,
the Catholic Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin, in 1831, re-
commended the establishment of model schools ; and one of
the purest-minded and greatest men he had ever known, the
late Dr. Murray, the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, who
was one of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland
from the beginning, having begin•called upon by Cardinal
Fransoni to leave the board, wrote a letter to Rome in reply,
in 1839, in which he assured the cardinal that such a step
would be injurious to religion, and calculated to deprive the
people, for whose spiritual welfare he was responsible, of
education, and to throw them into the hands of proselytisers.
As to the charge that religious instruction was not given in
these schools, there were abundant time and opportunity
given in the ordinary schools for religious instruction daily;
but in the model schools there was, further, an imperative
rule, by which the pupils were absolutely prohibited from
attending any religious instruction except that of the deno-
mination to which they belonged. The right hon. gentle-
man then applied himself to the consideration of the deno
minational and separate systems of national education, and
maintained that neither was suited to the circumstances of
Ireland—(hear, hear)—and that the mixed system which
now prevailed was the best calculated to secure its ultimate
peace and prosperity. (Hear, hear.)
The O'CONOR DON said the model schools had been
entirely unsuccessful, and what exceptional circumstances,
he asked, were there in Ireland that required their continu-
ance? On an average, every pupil cost the Government
-.C4 per head, which was a higher average than any of the
public and private schools of England. The standard of
education was too high for the position in life of its reci-