The Sun.
London, England, 1801-12-15 00:00:00

Oody of men, and they certainly had done them-
selves great credit by their conduct in voluntarily
putting a stop to. the Distilleries last year. But in
a case of this kind,-the public interests, and not that
of any particular, body of people, was to be -con-
sidered. 'I here, was another body of people .who
had suffetcd, he meant the brewers, some of whom
bad beer, obliged-an leave off their business, and
others to lower die quality of their beer, so much as
to make-many people prefer drinking-spirituous li-
quors. to Incr. There had been a considerable change
in the-habits of the lower ela'ses of .the Community
with rep6a to drinkiogs-ssFormerly you used to:setsa
poor man -or.a porter with .1 prt of liorteis in ttis
hand, -bur now'-they were always tobe seen with a
noggin- of:gin. It was a known tita, that many .of
the diseases of the lower-order of the People arose
from the intemperate use of spirituons liquors ; and.
it was a circumstance worthy of observation, that
in'ioxication-arising froru spirits, was.of a very dif-
' fetent nature froth that which arose from beer. .11.1
the accounts received horn Botany Bay, where spi
rits were• noe'used, it appeared that -niany women
who-had before been. barren, had become friiidul-in
consequence of leaving off spirituous liquors ; and.
that. the effea produced by the same cause upon men,
was that of making those who. had been most indo-
lent, aEtive and. diligent. He was sorry to find
that the use of. spirits had been, to a certain degree,
permitted in that Colony, but he hoped it would
he discontinued: Upon all these grounds he hoped
the Right Hon. the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE;
- Qtl E tt, and the House,- would be convinced of the
policy a continuing the prohibition, and therefore
he•moved -" for leave to bring in a Bill to continue
the Aa- now in force, for a limited time."
Me. PETERS seconded the Motion: he said, he
could see but one mischief that would result from
continuing the Prohibition, and-that was the injury
that would arise to the Revenue; but that subjea
. had been so-fully commented upon by the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last, that it was unnecessary
for him to trouble the House: It had been said,
that it -would. reduce the price of Hogs ; but this
he did not admit, because: the 'consequence of the
Distillers buying up Hogs, must necessarily in-
Crease _their price. He was aware, that the quan-
tity of-Grain used for Distilling was not so great,
that it ought to affeEt the' price; -but in fact, the
price was raised by expeaation ; the consequence
was the same to the Public. '-
Mr. DENT said this was a subjea of the great,
est importance, and required the most mature deli-
beration. However, in the vote which be should
give, he should agree with the unanimous sentiments
. of his Constituents, who thought the Distilleries
ought 'not to be. opened. Indeed, it was rather
singular. that there were Petitions withont end
against the Distilleries being opened, though there
was not one on 'the other side. In circumstances
of this kind -we-ought- to look to the Condo& of our
-Ancestors in similar cases. In the scarcity in the
time of Edward 11. it was determined that Wheat
should not be malted : and it was also determined,
that COtn should be laid up in public granaries, to
-prevent the manceovres of Monopolizers, who have,
in his 'opinion, contributed not a little to the pre-
sent dearness of provisions. The sum that .would
be lost to the Revenue was only 800,0001.. ; and
the* question was, Whethet such a sum was to be
put-in competition with the public convenience? •
. Mr. IV. SMITH rose to deliver his opinion upon
some of the points which had been advanced by the
.Gentleman who preceded him. The Hon. Gentle-.
manswho began the discussion had entered into a
very wide field; but his argumetr' were in general
so contradictory,- that -it was obvious the Hon.
Gentleman did .not not speak from his own know,
ledge, but from instructions which had been put
into his hands. He should, with the permission of
the House, begin with noticing one or two great
misstatements which had appeared in the Public
Printi. It had been said, that if the Distilleries
.were opened at all, there would be no means-of pre-
venting Distillers from using Wheat. Upon this
subjea, he could take upon himself to say, that
since the last Prohibition against using Wheat in
the Distilleries, not a single quarter of Wheat had
.been used in that manner ; but even if they did use
Wheats that. would not be a good argument for
preventing them from using any kind 'of Grain
whatever. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
who preceded him, in one point, viz. the bad con-
sequences tharensued from the great use of Spirituous
Liquors. Nothing, undoubtedly, was more injurious
. to the health'or to the morals of the lower orders of
the People ; but that was not the question now be-
fore the House : indeed the way to diScourage the
-use' of Spirits, was to encourage the distillery from
Malt, because in proportion to the gieitness of the
duty must be the greateeS's of the price, and of
course the smallness of the consumption. Insfaa,
there ought to be no limit in the duty, but the
ability- of colldaing it. But in order to have the
duty ascertainable- and easy -to he colleeted, the
manufacture ought to be in the hands -of persons
who-were known, and who would not endeavour to
evade the duty... The: Malt Distillers were • in this
situation, and.the duty: which they 'had constantly
paid to Government.without any attempt at evasion,
amounted to little leis- than. one million a year ;
there was no duty paid more fairly. It was in
vain to attempt • to prevent the consumption sof
Spirits, because if they were-not rpacie at home they
would- be. 'smuggled in froth the Continent, parti-
eulatly Holland ; so that all -the evil would he pro-
duced, and at the same time the Revenue Would be.
materially- injured. The arguments—however of.
tSe Learned Gentleman who seade this Motion,
-went not Merely-to the stopping, of the Distilleries
under the present circumstances, but to prevent
them from ever being opened any more ; now this
was' a proposition to which he thought the House
would by -1)0 means accede: With regard -to the
effea which was to be produced upon the minds of
the people, he was convinced that ,a greater degree
of alarm would be-excited by stopping the Distil-
leries than from -laying them open, because if they
were to be stopped, it would be confessing that
there actually .was a scarcity. It had been said that,
the price of Corn was' raised since it was known
that the Distilleries were to be opened ; blit what
was the ttss ?" Why ,the price of Wheat, which
was not to be used in the Distilleries, had
incressed,while Barley, which was to be used, had

not risen in price ; and, in point of faa, the last:'
time the Distilleries were opened the price Of
ley had fallen. It had been said, that Ilar:ey was
.
the fittest gain fiir, the use ,of man ; but this was. by, •
no means cbrrea it certainly was used, but, not in,
preference to Wheat: With respeft to the Teti-:
dons, a- person would suppose, from the language .
which had been held, that they were innumerable
indeed one Gentleman 'had said that there' was no.
end' to them. Now, in point of fad, there was only
eight Petitions. Petitions on the Table of the Hduse. He did
not mean to disparage those Petitions Or the persons,
they' came from ; undoubtedly ;many more might be
procured ; but it was equally, true, that it would be
easy to procure' as 'many Petitions for opening the,
'Distilleries as there were against them. Gentlemen
did not seem' much to have attended to the arguments 1
which they urged upon this occasion; for it had been
:contended, that if the Distilleries were not permit-
ted to go-on, that the Grain they would hdve con-
sumed would be used for Bread, and that it Would:
have increased the duties upon Beer. Now it
was hardly fair to take the argument both ways ;
for if the Barley was used for Bread, it was
not very easy to imagine how it could be converted
into Beer,. or vice versa. Another proposition:
which had been urged, and which, appeared to him.,
a little Whimsical, was, that last year the poorer
classes of people had taken more than usually to the
use of Spirits. Now it happened that the duty upon
Spirits had decreased last 'ycarnearly one half, and
consequently the consumption must have decreased
in proportion. If, however, the Honourable Gen-.
tleman was corre& in his assertion, it was not very
easy to guess where the spirits came from. With
regard to the morals of
.the people, he had before
said he agreed with Gentlemen in their general pro-
positions upon this subjed : but 'if they were either
to drink spirits distilled from barley, or spirits di-
stilled from molasses,. heapprebended that in either .
case their morals would suffer in nearly the same de-
gree. He had now shortly answered the different ob_
servations which had been made against opening the
Distilleries ; and the grounds upon which he opposed
the Motion were simply those of expediency and jus-
tice. The Hon. Gentleman had said that the Distil-
lers were a respedable and opulent set of men—cer-
tainly their respectability did not arise from their opu,
lence, but their opulence in one point of view ought
to be taken into considerations because their wealth
was laid out in large ereCtions for carrying on their
business which was totally at a stop ; and, undoubt-
edly, there • ought to be very -strong reasons-indeed
before so many persons were disabled from carrying--
on their business, and the Revenue fieprived of
t,000,0001. a year. The interests of that body of
men, or the difference of a million of money in the
Revenue, ought certainly not to stand in the way
of any very important object ; if the Food of the
Poor was it stake, these secondary considerations
-.must submit ; but, /on the other hand, the Public
.owed- the Distillers' a duty, .they owed them pro-
tedion, and they ought riot to be prohibited from
carrying on .their business, when it was impossible
.to prove, from any sound arguments, 'that any pos-
sible injury could arise to the Public from it. •
Mr. WILBERFORCE said, it seemed to be ge_
nerally admitted, that if distillation from Barley
was prohibited, there would still be neaily, an equal
consumption of Spirit distilled• from Molasses ; all
argument therefore relative to the injury arising
to the morals of the People from the use of Spirits,
must be, left, in 'this instance, entirely out of the
diseussion. The only Question for consideration
appeared to be that of Revenue, and he must be a
very weak.man, 'or know very little of the' subjed,
who would refuse to consider
.Revenue as a very
important consideration. The advantages for which
the co'Untry depended upon Revenue, were perfealy
obvious, and no source of-Revenue was more ad-
vantageons to this Country than that bf
It had been stated on a former evening by a Right
Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER); that whether the Distillation from Barley
went on or not, there was little or no defalcation in
the Revenue, nearly an equal Revenue being produ-
ced from the distillation from Molasses., There
appeared therefore no reason; drawn from financial
considerations, for renewing . the distillation from
Barley at the present moment. An argument .had
been urged,,drawn from the duty the House owed
to the Distillers, who were certainly a very respect-
able body of men, and no man could feel more than
himself what was due to them ; but it should he
recolleded, that they were only prohibited from dis-
tilling from Barley, whilst the distillation fioim Mo-
lasses and Sugar still remained. The great Qaestion,
however, for consideration was, whether by allow-
ing the distillation from Barley, they should not
enhance the price of Bread Corn It was true that
Barley was not commonly made into .Bread, yet it.
was so in many pans of England ; and it was to be
feared that the persons consuming this kind of Bread
would be driven, by the high'price of Barley to the
use of Wheat, and thereby the price of the latter
would be materially increased. He believed a great
part of the late high price of Wheat was to be at-
tributed to 'a numeroua class quitting the use of-
Rye and. Barley for the_ consumption of Wheat ;
and he thought those.persons should be templed by
every possible means to resume the use of those ar-
ticles which they had deserted. As to the quantity
of Barley used for the purposes of distillation, when
it:was asserted that a large quantity was used illi-
citly, the quantity legally used would not of course
be taken as the criterion of the consumption- of that
article in distillation, With resped to the effect the
purchase of this quantity would have upon the Mar-
ket, it should be recolleded;that not only the,Barley
used in England, but also that consumed in Scotland
for the purposes of distillation, was purchased at Lon-.
don, and consequently that the whole effed produced
fell upon the London Market, whilst the price ofßar-
ley in every other part of England was regulated by
the price of the London. Markets. Persons having
a commodity to. sell, were necessarily aauated by
feelings ofinterese to-ask the:highest possible price
for that commodity, that Circumstances: would al-
low. It was not the quantity adually wanted, but
the quantity conceived to be wanted, and the im.
pression made by it upon men's minds; that would
influence the price, and cause it to rise. It was
this persuasion which would affect' the Market and
the price :of Barley throughout the-Kingdom. All
agreed in the propriety and necessity of encourag.

iegCultivation •„,the
,only difference fts, wheth r
it was fit at the present moment to anew the dis-
tillation from Barley to proceed l If ithealistilla-
tion from Barley was not now stopped, it would be
Ofvery little use to do it as a fliture period after
the Recess. The ComMittee of last year, whose
Report made in March, was inimical to the
prohibition of distillation' from Barley, of which
Committee he was a' Member,' had proceeded upon
this gotiond, that four-fifths
.of the whole quanti-
ty which would be consumed in the courseeof Abe'
year, had then already. beeti used, and it was there.
•fore of little or no utilitT to prohibit the dis-.
dilation at that time. _Chat would be exatly
-the case now, if nothing was done in the busi- .
`ness before the Recess. Before the House could '
;ad,' four-fifths of the whole quantity wanted for
the year would have been consumed, the mis-
chief would already be done, and the House could
then ad With no effedin prohibiting the distilla-
tion from Barley. It was True there were no more
than eight Petitions on the Table fOr continuing,
the prohibition, but he
.had reason. to believe that
those Petitions spoke the sense of a majority of the,
Country. He hoped if the Distilleries were per.
witted to go ou, the measure would not have that
injurious circa which it was feated would result
from ite though she doubted whether it would not
have a 'very considerable effed, He did not exped
the ptesent motion, • but if he was compelled to
chose, he thought Under the present circumstances, ,
the Distillation front Barley should not be suffered
to proceed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIE.Q. LIEN
said, he was 'desirous of exptessing his sentiments
and stating his opinion on this very important sub-
Jed, • immediately after the declaration of ,the aentis
ments of Hon, Friend who had just .spoken,
cause he felt it incumbent on 'him to corred one
mistake, which he was enabled to correa from in-
formation which he derived from the execution of
his official duty ; he 'meant that part of the state-
ment of his Hon. Friend which related to the Re-
venue. His Friend had stated, that 'although the
Question now before the House was highly hue
portant in itself, yet in a financial view, it was
extremely narrow. His Friend had 'supposed he,
in his official situation, had admitted that to beAhe
case : that was not so, nor had it that 'operation last
year when the stoppage of the Distilleries took
place : the • fat was; that the defalcation. to the
Revenue on that occ.asion was 566,00&. s there
was an occasional increase of duty on account of the
importation of Foreign Spirits, to the athottrit
too,oool. ; so that the whole of the real loss to the
Revenue was only 400,0001.: but this was too
considerable a sum Co he described as a narrow Mat-
ter of financial arrangement. There .was another
mistake into which his. Hon. Friend had fitllen, to
which he beggedleave to advert : his Friend, ftas-I
an honourable disposition and laudable feeling, endea-
voured to find out a substitute for the defalcation-in
the Revenue, which must be felt by the stoppage of
the Distillery of Grain, by adverting to 'the Dis.
iillation• of Molasies. Upon that oecasion he felt
as his Hon. Friend did, and no consideration of the
personal convenience of any person should have
deterred•.him from giving his support to
Distilla-
tion from Molasses, if he thought chat it would be
to the general interests of the Community e .but
• 'he was persuaded that, the general interest of. the
Community would not be preserved, by the emot,.
• ragement his Hon. Friend' recommended to distilla-
tion from Molasses. The. true interests of the Civ..
• munity embraced host 'particularly an encourage
merit to the Malt Manufadurer and the Grower of
Grain, so materially connected with the agricol-
. lure Of the Country, on the prosperity and im.
.provement of which depended so materially the
comfort as well as strength of the Community.
The distillation of Molasses was a trade that Could
be carried on by a capital which was much ihferior
to that which was indispensably necessary to support
the 'trade of distillation of Grain. The trade of the
distillation. in MOlasses was inferior in every re-
sped to the other distillation ; the apparatus was
very different, and so was almost every thing in the .
trade from the distillation of Grain. Thedistillery
• of Molasses was a trade Which might be carried on
in a coiner e whereas thOSe who distilled from
Grain, could ,do no such thing.' This' was a poipt •
of some importance, especially to those whose trade
it.was:to distil' from Grain, and of importance for
the consideration of the House. It was a great sa-
• tisfadion to him to find that. all his HOn. Friends
had agreed in one principle,., which ought to guide
the determinations of that HouSe, which was indeed,
its paramount obligation, namely, to look at that
which, upon a 'comprehensive scale, might be said
to constitute the interests of the whole Community ;
that was, in other words, the general interests of
the People—in
.Which he apprehended encourage-
ment to the produdion of Coro,stoed conspicuously
forward. ThiS was a principle upon which hL:
thought the. House- must .always rely, to support
which they ought to acquiesce in measures which
could not otherwise Ile justified, and in times of
pressure that might he felt to be little -short of cala- •
mity, but at all times to do that which tendezi.to:.
encourage agriculture. For these purposes, apd to
obtain this object, which was the-real advantage
' of the People at large, the House must often saeri,
five immediate and temporary feeling, fist perma-
• nent advantage ; 'for they were not to ptvehase pre-.
sent convenience and superficial approbation, at the.
bitter price of sell-reproitch, a debt which would be
due to their conscience, if upon refiedion they
found they had given way to temporary feeling of
• pressure, and sacrificed' permanent advert: ge (in
• that permanent advantage he included, alt= possible
encouragement) to the produdioes of the earth, and
more immediately that of Grain, which was thes
'ob,..
jed of distillation. A question might indeed, arise,
What was the point of limitation as to the applis
cation of t.lutt psiuciple.l, It was, in his opt
niore-exremeiy difficult to' say, at what price of
the article this application of principle should cease.
It Was impossible to . fix the price before-hand; be,
cause that must-depend on other, and relative points,'
embracing a'constderation of We 'price of other ar-
, eiclesS .and'indeedrit Would be difficult to say what
the price should be of the different articles grain
itself, with reference to each other, in beder-to,say;
when the use' of it for distillation should be. prohi.
bited. His Honourable Friend had reetred to the

.Petitions on the Table on the sii!,*.e, ,ow before
the House. He admitted they were hut few '
number, but he contended they exhressed. the set
of the majority of the Peoph! •of this Country, i;
which his Honourable Friend implied that he 115"
erred in what he said on that subject on a thrive;
occasion, That was a defective statement of what
he said on that subjea. He never said these Peck'
lions did tint express-the sense-6r' the hrrihrorhh'e
the People ; he only said, he., had .ye,t to. learn 1110
they did express that sense ; he had that to 100
now, for there was certainly no poof of;it ; bLIc
even if they did express the .sentiments of, the mg'
jority of the people, yet,
.if he: was convinced tthic
sentiment was not in unison with the real, interest'
of the people, painfid as ie-would heetteliihhw or
pose such-a sentiment, he should dO it for untie'
such circumstances, he should be guided by -a prino
ciple which was .paramount to that. of pleasing the
people, that of essentially serving them ; for it tot
not. the hope, ner was it the wisie,, it Was the me
interest of the People that
.a PClitHan ought to hhil
sue.Wlien he said tithe, he to bennklefr
stood as not saying any thing to. cal, -in, questihit
the integrity of those presented Petitions
to the House cm
_the preset): shhiei!.t '; they were,
he was ,eonvinced, persons perlettiv respeaaliler
but the House, would at the same time recollea
Were persons residing in different parts of theCouw
ay, and they were so conneßed and circumstanced
that it might without any harshness be said of dell)
that it was impossiblcfor them to have takehhcomihh
hensive view of the true interests of the wholah.-
Community in which we liVe, and of which, although
pettedly respectable, they formed only a small part;
but althcugh these l'etitionero had snot, vet it WI
the duty of that 'llCtuse tO. that geneted an"
cQraprehensivu. view .of the interests of tne .wholo
Community- ; and happily for the -People of this
Country, there was in that Houle- abundance ,
knowledge of such interest, and a dispositioo4
preserve it.--h—leduid been said by some, by rico-C $1;
pointedly as th 6 Hon. Centlethan- opposite to hitn,
that there was' a great deal of-prejudice on the 011;'t
now before the House. lie felt the truth
that observation, and-the force of it. He did not
deny that respect was nor, in some cases, due to
prejudice ; on. the contrary, there were some semis
ments entertained,. arid cherished under that 7,vhi4:11
was commonly called Prejudice,- which were .of ,std
a quality that he hoped in .God they would lass
ever. There were others which came under the
head of Prejudice, and:which he should not. be sots
to see eradicated, and to such Prejudices heshvilh
he sorry to give -way: whenever they nailitaio
against the public welthre. He could only sav,.°.
general terms, it was the duty (if that House to 0;
amine Prejudices, and consider the bearing -the
had on the Public Interest, before they gave war;
diem.—Having said this, he must obsetve, with "
(Y e
Bard to the Petitioners who asked' the measure
moved for, they conveyed seni inents, of the tr-
and justness of which, his Hon. Friend who fl'h
supported this Motion was, lie was sure, col-4
hnpressed ; and- here he wished to have it uodec'
stoht. that in addition to the eight Petitions not3(,s
before the. House, the Lords of the Treasury fa
heie he was, only,repeating what. ;be had said for(
merlyy had received fifty Petitions bus iltne °
these 13,titicn1S, came from quarters where it 01
known that 'clandestine Distilleries are going
and in one of Whieh flO•less.than ten. stilts are
work, He was induced to say. this, to impress t';
House with an idea' pf., the nature of .sothe of 65
Petitions ; and to enable the House htdhavail itce
of this intelligenCe, the particulars of which ,
should, at no very disfailitpaiod, he belieyed, 1:A1
before them. Before he entered further into: thew :);
sideratihn of the grotrrid on \vhich he 'should 00)
the Motion of his:Hon.. and Learned .Friend,
should take notice of a point, on which muclestrhyf
had beenlaid. It had been stated; hi, a math,
which had astonished him, ..that since it was 51gc'ih
fled that it was not time intention of Government
propose the continuance -of the' resiridion, or !a
other words, that Government proposed to openfh
Distilleries, 'the price'-of: Bhrley, had. risen, ano h
was stated also, fromett :quarter for which he ah.cr:'°e!
felt, and always should feel; a. regard, -that the !,e
titioners held bade froth an unwillingness to interP"h
until they had-felt the effects the expeaatioh of
ing the Distilleries had on theoriee of the aihie-leah h
a prejudice had been enlisted into the servi,7'
Petitioners, as if wheat Was to beeemhloy ed it 41
distilleries ; but a moment's refiedian would
• pel eyery apprehensionoh that head, for, not ce
the penafty, which wa's great, but the. cernpar4tfiei
price Between Wheat and, Barley, gave the i'?;")
an assurance that no Wheat would be distilituhf
Supposing the Distillers to be willing to rnoeoh
risque; of the penalty.an, extravagant Suphosioe,
because it was impossible for them LO avoid A"i ,cee
tioti, yet, they must be allowed to possess h
sense of their owo interest than tOprefer
Barley in distillation, at the present pike of
tWo articles of grain. Wheat indeed had riseh.sho
the intimation' ryas even that Government di`'
• wish-to protract the prohibitiOti of the Distilif fel;
. beyonde.the_ period to-which , they now sthor,
-.striCted, but Barley had not. With perntiss.l°.ha
-the House he would state the prices of. that ail h)
as it had been given to him from a quarter on scbit.'bt
he could rely.—The price of Bhrley was from kt)
we think. he said, to h4,:hs. per quarter. 1211° s)
ens. The 6th 5 Ls; The highest price was 511:
.lehhath been, since the intimation froin •P°
-mama as low as 46 and up to S t shillinp ;d-
-this-day it ,vas 48s. He fied made out an I.lche
of-the price of Barley in Mark-hoe, every all 0,4
day-since it was intimated that cloyernineht
wish 'to continue the reitridion on the Distille4o
' Which was irbin the ad Of' November to the re
time, by which it appeared that the rice w'tsehht
--very day, roWer than it had been, by 3s.
- ter, in hhei:heried to. S'-)tP,
standing the apprehensions egpressed iii ih:it
that all Cprn WouldhiSe. au the idea or the
.10
-aeries being opened,hif appeared that Viliel4V
.risenebut that Barley had fallen'; and 1:e had
shewn there was no fouildation for- aphrcheroi
that Wheat would bear all used for, that. pv
Pt-was -important that-the Hotise shoulchlle4ls4
of -these circumstances, bechuse it thhhh‘re'.hero.v,,
ill.founded apprehensions,- add enabled!-G%,
to attend Pure thee;t4iy,- than they Ot'

I

valuable cl
to all who
111c=47ntill
valuable,
the Distill
f;.:rent arti

- (.! Frienc

1x.,%:s deter

peaty
365. per
of a Corn
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1800, the
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ley was f
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the Comm
uught:soi
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Price of

the Distill
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The Repot
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41 at prese
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