The Sun.
London, England, 1830-12-14 00:00:00

TRUCK SYSTEM.

Sir 11. PEEL bad to present three petitions of consider-
able importance. The first was from Worksop, the second
from Dudley, and the third front Bolton;—the latter of
which was signed by 14,000 persons of the manufacturing
classes. It prayed that a stop might be put to the prac-
tice gnat was rapidly extending, of paying labourers!
wages' in goods.--(Hear.)' He had been instructed
to support the Bill that was to be brought in to-morrow
by the Hon. Member for Stafford, which had for its object
to ineteese the penalties on masters paying their lebourels!
wages in goods. He (Sir Robert Peel) firmly believed
that the eff..ct of the practice was as injurious as de-;
scribed by the petitionera.—(Hear, • Liar.)—lt gave
as undue advantage to the manufacturer who paid in
goods over the one who paid in money. 'lt destroyed the
small tradesman, and degraded the moral con !Won of the
workman —(Hear.) He rejoiced that the subject would
so early come under the consideration of the House, and
he would take that opportunity of sayirig that the Bill
should have his support.
After come observations from Mr. Cresset Pelham, Sir
Horace St. Paul, Mr. Hume, Lord .13elgrave, Alderman
Weidman, Mr. Littleton; and Mr. Tennant, the' petition
was ordered to be printed.
Sir 11. PEEL presented a petition from Hampstead and
anotiter from Deptford, praying that the new police
might not he withdrawn from those parishes. The Hon.
Bert. said that the latter petition spoke in very high terms'
of the new police, and that there had been only two at•
tempts at burglary since they bad been established in• that
town. He was aware that a great deal had been said
about,the increased expenee. All be could'then say on
that subject was, to request Hon. Members to suspend
their judgment until a Committee was •appointed.
The Honourable Member for Middlesex had stated
that in', one parish the rats for watching had been
increased from 1,400/. to 5,440/. He had made inquiry
into the subject and found he was correct as to figurer, but:
the fact was easily explained. It was at Poplar in which
was situated the %Vest India and part of the East India
Docks, which, before the passing of the Bill, we, ascertained,
to provide and pity its own watchmen,but now they were
watched by the new• police, and, of eouree, contributed
wards its rote; therefore the rate to individuals was very'
little increased.

Mr.. HUME although he had made the statement.
alluded to, and which, according to the account of the
Eight Hon. Ilurunet himself, turned out to be correct, was
ro'enemy to the new police. '
Mr. WILKS complained that in one large parish an ad.
ditional rate of Bd. had been' levied in eensetrence of the
new police, and the result who that the collectors now in:
many instances were unable to procure the Payment of
either county rate or police rate.
Sir H. PEEL said, 'that the observation of the Hon.
Gentleman afforded a good illustration of his having jus-
tice on his side, when he asked the House to suspend its,
judgment for the present. It was extremely unlikely that
in a large parish, as alluded to by the Hon. 'Gentleman,
there had been no watching previously; and if there hut
been watching there, it was impossible that an additional
rate of Bd. could have been levied.

The petition wait then ordered to be printed.
WEST INDIA PLANTERS AND SLATES.

Mr. BORRODAILE presented a petition from Newcastle,
end Lord. BKABAZON one from some place in Wicklow,
against slavery.
The Marquis of CIIANDOS presented a petition from.
the West India planters, merchants, and others, praying
the house not to take steps towards destroying their pro..:
perty until it had afforded them compenpiation. No one
was a greater friend to the slaves than he was, but lienould
not help seeing that there were two ways proposed of get:
Ling rid of slavery in the West Indies—the one was by pit-.
pular clamour—and the other,by remunerating the planter
for the loss that he must necessarily auetein. When tha
question came to be &tided, hr should unquestionably
give his support to the latter of these ways• The peti••
tioners whose cause he vas advocating 'were in no way afraid
of inquiry; and he; therefore, hoped that 'the House, and
his Majesty's Ministers, would come forward With a plan
fur the settlement of the slave question, and the general
remuneration of the plainer,.

- -
Mr.:MARRIOTT complained of the outcry that had
heer, reised in the country ogaiust the West Indie
priethrs, and the attempt that there WO to force the House
into a coneltvion on the..subjeet ; in illustration of which
he mentioned n petition that had been presented from some
congregation, by. a Noble Lord, on the 4th .of November,
which spoke of the improptiety of suffering traffickers iu
human flesh to bold a seat in that Howie, where they ap-
peared like Satan seated among the son* of God--(A
logh)---and which celled At Parliarneut.to grant on com-
pensation to men that dealt in human blood. it Was true
that Christianity fol hide slavery, but it was equ illy true'
that its doctrines forbade their letting loose a large slave.
population, the inevitable consequence of which must he.
a general massacre. Besides which, be contended, that
without taking into consider:ditto the impossibility of tom.
pensation„ shivery, as it now e;isttd in its mitigated form
in the west Indira, was a much lets evil than the risk
which would follow arty alteration.
Mr. BRISCOE was convinced that the general.question
of thee emancipation must very soon be forced on the
attention of his Maj2sty's Ministers, Milt it Was desirable-
that ouch a question should be settled, net only by a.
vote of that House, but with the consent of the West
India proprietors, and under- the sanction of his Mu-.
jetty's Government. The petitions which he had teen
again*, slavery rested their chime on the highest ',outage

ground ; they designateti slavery as a crime disgraceful to
man, and they dwelt on the moral and mental degradation
of the slave. These petitions had likewise additional
weight by having affixed to them the signatures of clergy-
men of all denominations, who held that it was revolting
to Chii.tianity that it should be argued that slaves were
private property, and therefore must not be meddled with.
Mr. L. WELLESLEY was of opinion that colonial
slavery was not to he got rid of, by a single Act of Parlia-
ment—it was so mixed up with the commercial interests
lof this country, and through that with the commercial
bar:este of all other countries.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said the petition signed by
hie Noble Friend was signed
,by gentlemen of as great
respectability as any in the House; and the great
object of the petitioners was to implore the House, if it
granted emancipation, as that would destroy all slave pro-
perty, to grant the West India proprietors compensation
Before the House did ernancipete the slave, Inquiry would
be necessary by fair and competent judge., as to what
amount of compensation should be granted. His Majesty's
Ministers were probably not disposed to grant inquiry, as
they were generally men who rested their claim to the con-
fidence of the country by acting on this point in conformity
to the sentiments of the people. He must, however, say,
that he hoped from their general candour that they would
logic atalie question, aware of all its difficulties, with a
view of doing justice to all parties, and giving the country
at large confidence in their decision. It was said of the
West India proprietors, that they bad no feelings like
other men, and that if their slaves were emancipated they
would obtain free labour in the Writ Indies. This as-
sertion, however, .was disproved by experience. People
who made that assertion did not consider what was the
bode and compact of the West Indian society. It was
that two or three white persons should rule over a great
multitude of m'eves.. Those slaves were the labourers on
the estates, and the others were the proprietoes. There
were in that state of society no links between the master
and the slave, and no connection between these extreme
points, as 'were fuund in other communities. Those who
urged forward emancipation had but a very imperfect ac-
quaintance with the state of society in the West ladies,
and their zeal could only excite irritation, and if followed
up, bring on' the dissolution of society in these island..
If society there were to be dissolved, all property would
be destroyed, industry would stop, all trade would be at
en cod, and nil the shipping now engaged in it annihilated
at once. flow would humanity—how would justice be
served by that ? Would that benefit the African ? He
believed not. It would transfer our trade to other
countries. He looked at the pt titions which had been
piesented to the House, and 0f2,600, the amount of them,
2,200 had proceeded from the Dissenters, 60 only from
the Established Church of England and Scotland, and the
remainder from the community at large. MI these- peti-
tions proceeded on one principle—they declared that man
could net be the property of man, and therefore they de-
manded the immediate abolition of slavery. He did net
know by what original or natural right—by what else, in
abort, but by the compact of society, one man here was
in possession of 150,0001 a year, while tau thousand
labourers dill not share as much amongst them. Was
that, be would ask, natural and just ? Was it more natural
awl mere to be honoured, than that men were the property
of men in the Weft Indies? What was it but the com-
pact of society which gave the Duke of Devonshire a
right to his property? Might not his servant say, in
digging his garden, that lie did it for himself, and not
for him, and that the Duke had no tight to the produce?
In the West Indies the compact was different; and if '
the landed proprietor in England was bound to defer to
the tights of the labourers, in the West Indies the pro-
prietor was hound to look after the welfare of his :slaves,
to make them comfortable and promote their improve-
meet. Whet he thought should be done !elate emanci.
;melon was granted was, to inquire closely into the rate of
the colonies. For example, the Established Church of
England was perhaps little suited to the colonies; and it
would be wise to inquire if the church of Scotland, as
there were many persons belonging to that church is the
Islands, might not he extended in ahem. Alresdy wire
Commissioners had been sent to inquire into the state of
Judicature in. the and that inquiry ought to be
pursued. He wished for a Reform in Parliament to a
certain extent.; but he must think a Reform would be
mischievous if it would prevent the Members from delibe-
rating (icily and fairly on the affairs of 'the country.
Lord Al ORNE'FIi would not have said one word, if it
had not been for some of the observations of the last lion.
Members. Something had been said about " Swing ;"
bat that gentleman'a of orta were not to be justified by the
exertions of the people of England to relieve the slaves.
The slaves of the Wiat Indies were the property of their
masters ; the labourers of England were the property of ito
man. The relations which took place.in this country be-
tween landlord and labourer were the consequences of an
unalterable state of society, and depended on principles that
everywhere prevailed. The slavery in the West Indies was
founded on art original wrong, which was yet unredreseed,
which was in fact, in its consequences, yet in full opera-
tion. It eras founded in Acts of Parliament utterly re-
pugnant to the sentiments of right and wrung implanted
in the heart of man. The Bible said that there should he
always poor in the land; but it nowhere amid that there
should be always slaves. On the contrary, it gave rea-
son to believe that slavery *hold be extinguished. He
was aware, and had always said, that there was exaggere-
tion on the side of the emancipationists; bat exaggeration
on their side was net more mischievous than concealment
on the other. For his own part, he wished for nothing
more than that the question should be decided after im-
partial consideration.
Mr. MACAULAY agreed with the Noble Lord and
the Hon. Gentleman, and 'agreed, too, with the peti-
tioners, that whenever slavery was exinguished, all the
loss of property which might arise theuld be made good
by the Government. He 'weed in this opinion, not be-
cause he agreed with what fell from the Hon. Member for
Dumfries, which, by the bye, lie did not understand,
shout the compact of society. He did not see from that
species of metaphysical argument how protection for pro.
perty was necessary ; but It was found by experience that
it was bad for men that property should sot he secured,
anti that great inconvenience resulted from violating pro-
perty, on the ground, it wee said, that men should have
their property protected. After the public hail declared,
by Acts of Parliament, that men should be property after
they had been bought and sold, deposited as pledges, made
to answer far dowers, great inconvenience would result
from taking away that species of property, and the mas-
ters anti owners ought to be compensated. lie declared
that he thought, in common with most of those who peti-
tioned the House, that slavery ought to be extinguished; but
he and they all contemplated, on its extinction, giving a rea-
sonable compensation to the masters of slaves. It was a
charge against the petitions for the abolition that they were
all got up under the influence of the Anti-Slavery Society.
The petitions were gut up under that influencee—was that
extraordinary? Who should inform the people of Eng-
land, busily employed in their own domestic occupa-
tiens,cf what occurred in the West Indies, if some such
Beeiety did: tot undertake the task? But the influence the
Society possessed was over the public mind. It hail no
other. It appealed to the public reason. It had no mo-
nopoly of the public Press. 'lts reports and proceedings
were open to cavil and objection. The periodical litera-
ture was as much in the hands of the West Indians as
their opponents. Magazine and Reviewers were on their
side: of celebrated work's, he believed that the Qvar-
lowly Review had slaters been in their favour. lie did
not believe. that there wag one of those periodical publics-
lions which were ,meat read—he meant • the news,
papers—he did not believe that there was one of
the London newspapers that was fully and completely on
the side of the • abolitionists. The organs of the West:
India hotly were as numerous as those of the other side,
and their funds wets at least equal to those of, the Anti-;
Slavery Society. It was not long egolhat the West India
body gave as much to one writer as the Anti-Slavery So.
ciety received and employed in a year. The fact was,
onhwt Ifpalestitlrathei
tahe
lic.cu,ntei
sWyptrerrefolisegt:foroi;euisnniti(alavaibeahrl
by:bed:gel
failed
an
thewit
rneya sdgi,
trying
ogogipr;pssut
enit
anshmidcete: wrong.
tamid
eoißtdanti
tnoba.fAlliepl
effortswere
e
n
carried further and further away every year from their ob-
ject. The petitions, it was said, were violent : hut, though
nobody supposed violence was good, what. good cense
had escaped being disfigured by violence? The Chris.
tian religion itself at its origin was disfiured by
many pious frauds, and fanatics then abounded. Such was
the case, too, at the ReforMation, and much violence was
instruitientel in bringing it to a conclusion. For his part
he did not charge the West India belly with 'the calumny
that was uttered against the abolitionist*. Theta'', he
knew, contained minty honourable men, who were free
. from all suspicion of such a charge, and who scouted as
much as any honourable men could those people who lived
by slander, and traded in violent 'abuse, end in %viten, the
ideas of caltimny and their desires were inseparably
bated. He would do justice to them, and let them do
justice to their opponents. let neither party recriminate
any longer, Let them all consider the matter like states.
men and legislators. Let them ask themselves, was
there any evil; and was there a remedy for it? Were-
' they the people who ought to epply the remedy, and was
this the time ?• 'lt this were the time and they wets the
people, he 10641 implore them to apply the remedy, lie
saw that there were many difficulties in the way of it ; but

jestlifih,
rn officede
et
,wreotewhue:rgatatilur
on, thought
eadt tiolhtes
tayehrsodt
.ti
dffi,onenThutahl :seise ;, character
statesmen
aon: would ;loi readily
fthem
I,wo
theorymh
who had
Itovanishb at a
41
lately
er tire
elya t t
its
kou
enol 1:
ahkeenhomdp
no
oy
datoanteubtmtehnoteftharrewipoauelidouberiiontielfloocrt.
wardtheyt i
rw.t questionhoßeuEldnsNh
n. Li
nisaqnuidai r
ypt
h.r
so proper
eshmetiln:ocnnedr.i.g
I-
fseimcmoldt:errat
enbd
al
inquiry.
ic:up
oui
rlyi
hat under-rated, ho believed, the el.flicultiea of the teak.
There was the interest of this coontry to Ice considered—
' the interest of the West Indians—and there was also the
interest of the negroes themselves. They vat] ttot be Ist
loose like paupers. There WAR no poor law in the West
Indies; and if the slaves were removed from the autbegltY
and contend of their masters, whose interest and duty it
waste .seTl%wehsnehrnat
ieritretsetts
fee
d Legislature
a,urnie
sEmtnrtdei
t:niartahmkighrneAuei sitsdltath,
ri country,el' Tad:
tirni i 'l,l
bgsmiiygi c "siapithdtvlr.mhoe e°,wftg.iodmwri
thattra t 41PesiiiNirii idwaniElood,' eonittmi;tilstthpolweioodneyl rititg'
yiwargt, couldetertiliew:.ieilnitiltohyl
eeithid,lol.lleo
.ftillahrit min:l:cu:hin, pgrer mare
Legislatureairr:dtr:
lei::
eit litfil? odium
parr eitocty
iipPit
innsfititer'
ail
i.e.; 1
his improvement by all poesible means.
the first wish of the great West India merchants
and proprietors was, that inquiry should be established,
of every man in the community. The neat was that if it
early'emancipation should take place, then they wilbea
that compeneation &mu! I be given, and that they looked den
Mr. POWELL BUXTON said, it was * soll'ir''''- ,
circumstance that inquiry was now demanded; and why -
therewitothb,hadbegunl aiesyrtteaitmrnlphilatlaeni ginaolonqp.eleitunt,ise.ynt.hie
dsielenetcwsiorhPleit'sai:oatafil:q:::::heretofore
someirylaett.,antnaidnhei demanded'
eidoniiapnd ne:
o.tt
00l I
fn llßthhte f'yaltori
rnrymnitte;
much
del
pleatl i"Ino
dell f o riuli
tisnri
on I tdYwi:o;ll lin;ilfl
sil -'
thrown on him. The country was satisfied by effi-
i nntt
11(11;111 deer,
dr
eldHvi—•yoeeusatsfmeoreiwnttidti
tah:eaulteArhoem,:imafetadeneminnsripppudu::ltantilin:itssindolt,,inetohnib:.
tilitg:iT it:islanetteo
Planter
tsi
nipntni,ots:esii,o,nir),i ebos sii:aritibfiatila:fritnirt)
liohfititet
the country demanded, and it demanded that the abolition
shouldf
he accomplished with the least popible injury t°
t, the slaves. He had heard it observed out of doors;
staele to the abolition. If the West Indian body come to
the Government must pay them 140 millions sterling; if
net wish for compensation—it t w°l;lisel itswhetPll;itntitahelytentirelboil.-
tinus In the apeculationi which was made on thil;!tiooti
jrct, there was one party entirely overlooked g? '.l'
,_
cam compensation
penhsaetiooinw.awyeatise addutenittedtbleha'tlaivfeethe Itrilerenteer:lwiteletrie
mil::
atiwtfnerhnitteselawattealon:pl
birb:elyaveittcnik:eaocnßfreirtmihhiptaeeoid.stphea;G:::,:tevi:llyelpirilenamb;etehitannttgli;seco:ibimcolo:ptinite:intedotliworflaas
bweeftlisißbi,briii
ten that the right deigned over the slave wan foto led I
te give nothing to the awe ? If hen pprove.
de
was he
chant being compensated for the loss of his ,
hi" lite which
to give no rompensation to that living terre-ant, tri.eiry,
was made the object of this traffic / The otyl•Iii:I, into
he thought, which ought to be made, we' en,,liul .paver!'
the the best and shortest way of putting an gnu be
lie hoped that the question • f compensation
brought forward, but brought f•rward Gall whell
was put an end to.
theCLloonnetlrySlbleliTngHlOedßaPwEayprioltetsitieedssoigtarirnosttnithiepuip.ll;_siti:/„A:ingd,
the Anti-Slavery llsports, of whiels not more
e',.'"o, i
word in every five thousand was worthy of heliVi f,io
was disposed to grant entancipstion when thelrl. ,but
prepared to compensate the planters for their . 0,1,00,10
before they determined on taking inch a course, le'4.
it would he right to ascertain from what source:o.
atien the amount of the compensation was to he tlrs a
theSiiiwr
gGilEsgOelloGrE
theitlitUunilßielo'Tbeirf
dDisopulgalyeatti'obtsefficchieargnt macttilvieitlyitiin
accomplishment of the emancipation of the slaves i ;121
West India Colonies. Sir, I Iteve always 01;1)014 . ,
traordinari s'
this, moment, thst n sbstain horn an/ ex . , „met
tiviry in the measures to be carried into effect with t:,,,r_r,
to the Colonies was a merit rather than a defeet--10tfsd
hear)--and that it was the duty of the. G. tavern
o..ds.
theit,hrre
r awantiges wish
yvtetprf
yatuth
air:Lent:
eg„
7i It:
:t,
oeuhrreit 7
act ii,:lp(t)inw the
h.htaoi
yen
osoi Itit,t,tlnir:lo,,hit,gt:e:etsi
nrr
good
hpg
tre_t,o.,,,ericeltyrb',tcotin°l°::°•no:c''tr°rfilaii bur',
)1041d1,p
0:1r1p,1!_ lsiirli°.t, :111
citing those premature eiGintsverernpfomlrreaprntigiutobitirlirftitcol?:s:l:_c'o,:nh."4l !li
!titian which they
was to take what may be called leoyoured
to
abitaiith
is'
the stahjert.--( Hear, hear)--1 eti. It - woe of abs GOO'
had so Porrtcetannl,eard dercribed as likelYw
h
iletnearitni official del!ttey°itnutt)troß:ddneuoalrlfnawig‘illiethttrhgewmilin,thitteirrerreenttrie,(onici.eitieornoeirn;tryi
meatuninda co:loyal
on
laboured
o e eh:
ntohglaithiraft,be:,l
est
.fid
et
sopnnrryit
nei
otenfi
solely Ipgitsitie
subt‘ieltnt irgeopehftSat°.:
jet
jet
ti riliCt
ift
we
ell lehisi.eosr°l'.lll.:::trerosail,ettriel.r:l):).l::'resne:llo°:l,l:
manity.-4 Hear, hear.)--In the hand' af g e_l'.ei of any ,
I always conceived it right that the torenwoitoreot I
measures of the Legislature should he itt_ourehre el.
were, in nay opinion, situated in the eon; ge_Liall were o
, won,' "uw f short ,
tion for carrying into effect tiler rn , ,er, C fore
, .
of
freteiset ;hope,. a li
nwralylLot (ci titithorens entire
,r:I hn eeertr abolition
hisoe nurte)...:_:Pall
it Fii; the
thao
iiirrh:blionbida.ll
vadr
Legislature,avo u r g t
btoecaprotrive
locie i!bnlse ofi'r
tlhoeolpieelplaelotfhtfeehthlgitaeuretclicc:tenai:tnuntir'Gi;:ni;j:trut::ll;:lnretittni'lglsilt:irli:wrhtil:::i
'wjefsr'reequ°ireicatehntosittstssiuretrenXtryanttetes'llap'e'dri,:;:adhlati It'fhern.F,d-
time to render the black populating' itself, to he bows,.
ing and apprecisting the benefit
on them.—(Hear, hear.).—The lion. ,Iu ...wintry el,
..,,
fries (Mr. Douglas) has allude:not"
English Nobleman, in suppott of his arge_riiie toe the
could be any comparison between the man
.._:boo..it;
hlca.ings of freedom and the slave--(tle'l the being
isPi.
there could be any parallel armee he.t hopeless 04 IP Ite
writhes under the lash of the driver, tbn
whatever Oat i•
i tmhienapleolevehortyndoargett,n4arnrtyl tohfe
hfrieran w thwiiiiiee, horto,
10
pro
his power, by industry, temperance, ell netoly MI, o in
raise himself, and, in point of fact, fret hot sashes
himself, in this land of liberty, to 111,1 ...f. end wrtintpor
the State, sod to rank among the geilint,hee for mot 1
of its reets..--( Hear. ).--The lions )"`thio the .t..,
fries (Mr. Douglas) Items also to intitn!:_i a too ovens" it
of judicature in the West Wits has 1
yerer, toe, tl'i.sotlie
gleeted by the. late Goverunaent. It is ec'essagf ; 'ioto
had not been done which was Jorge' llottendatiepl! tay i
61 unfortunately, not so May to cast, roc,: . hl3l li cistPrer"
the proper form as some persons hog!' e,t. the -nit to be
with Rome confidence, that regulatioos ''_...„„ obon
s, to I
ment of the jedieaturts in the colonic/ are ll' nn
awier,- len 1,,,,n
astablisheth tinder the orders of the lite i they hsre to. i
all the colonies of the West Indies ; An" or Ille °llion. ,t
already carried into effect ia every colneY ur.),..-Ti r tor i
diate controul of the Crown.--(lleart in, ellerrb di 1
Member has also referred to the state en the
not feebly_h,
ittelcisthdmuerni:ginthetheteirnoleonoiesi .rnylccosoantEfieewsis:lrdl_
clo:pte.tiri.::,,lllo::,..,
that OW eoltil'e '
ailed 011 to make any alteration on
with the -
id 1.
t , ,i
waswas utonhgairpepi;ltoaortdpeortymapielentte, liberty .I°._at„ieesere tett
curb as much as possible thst spirit 0.1"
to, into
7d et
with the laws of this country and er trl, ge.-'oir
variance with the liberal opinions 01,„t of the C',1:4001
Itcar.)--With respect to the appointo.' 04,011 IP ,ory
elan of Inquiry, I see no good it could! , abs eso.iiit
exceptdelay; and I believe the Parliatneon led 1.,/ i ISify
"quire no delay except that which ill i ly in se eT.ito
judgment, prndence, and caution, whii` t'',, ftert%ile
the extent and manner of inlet ference es
which eartition
producing evils -Mere injurious than +my iro“.tion hviie
(Hear, herr.) The questing of ooriTentipios, I4e
muck Introduced in the course d ait (Pac..l, 013 ''.4 to ,
t • pan $ ,
..iii _ ~.
that nothing can be more proper, us t,` Indira sity eon fl
West 0 ~
eery than that the planters of the likely tOo 1011 f,
calve eompensaion for the loss they ere / core_ 0- ,
by the emancipition of the negroes; ho e 0 to urf,oo
at a loss to untlerttand what ' good volff:i. to l',e. (06
oreicred even by giving compeneatioe, tle '_,l....ll°P;ie ,n
with immediete emancipation.--( Heart h u-_,tithtnitli.:4ll
emincipatino, such as some of the n nr r ..0,1011r", tie
' bout an" r 3 01
recd'
this coutitry tequire, would, wit .h, min re
ntnrsearson
free;
thewhich
cii atlnTgre,nemreeratialyty,frotOlrdprrap:l3;.ltt: tiFti,,,,o:
knii.loll of murder, and an en de
coortit
dreadful scenes of • [ander and deveitatt:.it if $ retest
tion, I think, the Outer. should receive ;
i".' toe niovido•
immediate emancipation to these who are • %lily s,ir
in the ignorenee of bondage, end who at:
~0 rif
,ny ,
pared fur the enj..yir ent of liberiy, wile!! e..r,e,, 05t.c,,„,...
owners or do not p ty ',thent, we shottia
.1",,„ 0Pi4,11
icing confueitta at d Aliorder tlarough"o`,..4 00,17,4 o 1,
give a !keels' to rapine and licentiOusustes-=-170 I,lt " .
the bltn(ls of society—anal Make those tliKgl .14
scent of rain and deaolation.--(fiett,`ltesr. of elein I
After a few, words from Mr. k• vollat'
1

thittlie imputed, any blame to the.llon. Gentleman (Sir O.
Muiray),or to the Government,

tajr ROBERT PEEL was sorry to observe that the
' Hon.' Member for Weymouth (Mr. F. Buxton) had male
use of expressions totally at variance with those of the
Hon. and Learned Member fur Caine (Mr. Macaulay.)
The Hon. Member had told them that there wed a third
party, independent of the Government, and independent
of the slave or of his master, whose interests awl wishes
• must be consulted, and who have rights in the Legisla-
Con, and claims on its attention, sv:tich could not he post.
ponetl. If, however, they were prepared to postpone the
final settlement fbr a single day, the effects might be ink-
chieftain under such circumstances. Unle.s they were
prepared to dissolve the traffic in this living mercl,andise
on the instant—and who could say that. they were ?—he
intreated them to beware of making use of expressions
which could only irritate the passions, anti might lead to
Incalculable mischief. Could any man, however. who
listened to the speeches of the lion. 'Member for We)-
mouth, close his eyes to the difficulties of the queNtitiu ?
The Hon. Member for Caine (Mr. Macauley) admitted
in the fullest manner that there must be cotnpensation
made to the planters. If their claim to compensation
be admitted, what was to he its amount? Were they
to recompense the owner for the direct loss he would
sustain in his slave, or from the consequential loss he
must suffer in his property and plantations? These
were grave and serious questions to he decided be-
fore they came to the point of emancipation : and
then, supposing that many millions would be required for
the purpose, they were prepared at once to demand that
sum from the people of this country ? Supposing, how-
' ever, that emancipation is determined, anti that compensa-
tion is to he grant-d, what security had they that the co-
' lonies streald not be involved, before they could carry it
into effect, ist a 'general conflagration ? Did they consider
the consequences of suddenly making such an alteration in
the existing state of society ? Could they, when the slave
was emancipated, secure the contronl of the planter over
'"him as a freeman ? When the planter received compen-
sation for his property, all desire to remain in the colony—
' all stimulus to watch over its interests, would be titian
away ft um him. The Aristocracy—if he might make use
of such an expression—would leave the colony, having no
inducement to remain. There would be nn link by which
society could be held together—there would be n.s Magic-
tracy--no power by which wrong was, to be punished, or
tight secured—( Hear, hear, hear)--asd the Colonies would
present a scene of civil war and a succession of barbarous

conflicts, unmitigated by any of those checks which, in
the eieilied portion of the meld are found to soften the
horrors of the fiercest party hostility.—( Hear, heir, hear.)
These were a portion of the evils which might flaw from
an indulgence of intemperance of expression, or from a
too hasty compliance with the claims of the abolitionists.
'He only entreated them to pause until they could fairly
approach the evils which they all ardently desired to see
! -tuitigeted, but which never could be effectually dealt with
unless they looked not more at the pecuniary rights of in-
dividuals, than at that which was of even much greater
importsnee—the permanent welfare of the slave.—(llear,
hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP fully agreed with the Bight Hon.
Baronet on the importance of the question, and the diffi-
culties which attended its full con,ihration. While he
agreed with the lion. Baronet and the other Members who
had spoken on the subject, that the total emancipation of
the slave should take place at the earliest possible period,
•he also agreed with them that every exertion should be
Made to render the negro worthy of the station to which
he would be raised, and capable of appreciating thi full
benefits of emancipation. He thought it therefore of the
uttnost importance that no means should be neglected to
Improve their morals, and to extend among them the ad-
vitutages of education, so that they might become fit to re-
!claire with safety the full advantages of Tibet ty. He was
fully prepared to acknowledge that the trodden emancipa-
tion of the slaves would be productive of great evils to the
illavecthemselves, and that the masters typal not be able
to preserve over them that moonl which was necessary
fur the preservation of the public tranquility ; hut it was,
therefore, the more necessary that the measures deter-
brined on by Parliament to improve the morals of the
,Illave population and to better their condition should be
rigidly and generally enforced..—(Hear, hear.)-11e
"thought it necessary to sny thus much, that the opinions
'of the Goverainent on the queation might not be roistua-
Aeratoo&
Mr. O'CONNELL contended strongly against granting
'll, luPeonition to thwkslave owner., and deprecated the
4.401111 - need in the course of the debate, which seemed
,to hold it forth as a principle that the black man was an
"Irer6rs and that they were another and a superior class
t.
ins, lie denied this, and be called on the House,
!.; they could go, no farther, to pass a law at once, de-
`l4ring every child born. hereafter in the colonies to be free
atm the moment of its birth. .
Nir IL PEEL, in explanation, said, that this declare-
. lily measure of the Hon. Member would be a gross injus-
liktre those who were left in a state of slavery.
-On, the question thou being put, that the petition do lie
t/Pthe table, ! •
Fair. F. BUXTON postponed his motion on the subject
"'lllarery from the 16th of February to the Ist of March.
GAME BILL.
On the motion of the Marquis of Ctrampos, the Corn.
41,,441kekt of the Game Bill was postponed till the 12th o•
!litbraaary.

REFORM.
At the request of Lord Joint Rosati., who intimated
*fur that it alight excite premature and injurious di •
2111 Mons Mr. HAAVEY postponed his motion on the sub-
`t of the number of inhabitants in Boroughs and Cor-
.ltrote towns.
SUPPLY.
On the motion that the House resolve itself into a Com-
'l4lltte of Supply,
44r, KENNEDY called attention to the omission of an
Ponent item in the Pension List, furnished to the House
-04,,the ,motion of the Right Hon. Gentlemen (Sir J.
(iribittn) now at the head of the Athuiral•y. This °mil-
Ant 'referred to the einecurrts held by the Hon. Member
fat'Edinburgh (Mr. Modes.) That gentleman held of-
ss;thet:ltrought an income of 7,0001. a year; but the
ko before him contained an account of offices lA-mincing
44100/, a year, and he was, therefore, anxious to know
.144 the omission occurred, and whether there were not
Other omissions of the same description to be accounted
..141.his opinion, a Committee should be appointed to
into the offices mentioned in the List in all their
etitils.tes that economy might be rigidly enforced; not
4,,,4l""OY'applied to the active servant of the public,
Itt 11l who received large emobinients from offices fur
'KAM) perfOrmance of duty was required.
to 1 SIBTIIORPE, after commenting on the great
leaec of: than Foreign Ambassadors, begged to ask if it
:Ltttot that Lord Granville had been nominated to the
.'l7_Y of Peril with all the firmer salary ?
4;sgord.PALMERSTON said it was necessary that a
'414412.ipt' should tulle place .in the Einhasay ; and Lord
,711 e Wes Appointed. With regard to the salary of
Oreo„'"141441°111010, the late Government bad revised that
n Of the public expenditure, and the new Ambassa-
r,
401siett going out at the reduced allowance ; but if the
"I,l4:thought a further reduction should take place, the.
7rs, t Was open to consideration.
WELLESLEY said the Ambassadorial Pension List,
it,:s4tred no name for the last 11 years which had not
inneyerneil a pension, and many Ina] been put into diplo-
thlt
toffices to sate their pensions from other services to
ry•
Ai • THE CURRENCY.
sr Arts
thaw' e'A, 'VOW) wished to know from the Noble
.11 itti--." of the,Exchequer, whether it was the intention
ulde'""l'erss.in their inquiry into the causes of the distress
,ywiblit'hich the country was now unhappily suffering, to
.4tuult-noyapecific motion of inquiry. into the chief of
' shl/4 1414141/".441 noisultievoos tampering' with the cur.
.11 whiekt•Min;sters and Parliament bad been intro-
oltOctioning ;since 1919 ?
4*, ,_ECHANErLLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In an-
it the lion.' ltiember's question I have to state, that
rout
intention of Ministers to propose any inquiry
-see":„r"Y ito'altering the standard of our circulating
014,4 hear.) If the lion. Gentleman be of
440
-2.4 4t hat such an inquiry is necessary, let him bring
la ord 41, !potion to shot effect before the House, so
4ose "414* us io pronounce a decisive opinion on
upt ) lithe lion. Member de so, let me
‘Stit;dell„,lt)4ll,4l that he will favour the house with—in-
s' 4141'40 t'ogue, amkgenerel, and untangible allegations
Op e who usually advocate the expediency of a small
statement of the grounds of his complaint
ip the present system, of the change he would propose
I.f his views es to the effects of lies change..—
141 Zr, hear.) I should like to know what alteration
AOttsh,l4 "'Hither would propose to us to make in our
it? such how he would apply himself to effect
tet4-hether, fur example, he would issue a small note
4)!1414,1nte Another Bank restriction, or whether
Atcitetos atter the value, the standard value, of the cur-
Itsto ."(Ilears heirs). After the best attention I could
att.thie subjet._. 'and, 1 assure the Hon..filembet I
4."4e/ 1144704ihk„tulie4t 4:IY considered it, I have arrived at toe
.16 %et; Ouittbe impossible for us to alter the
--e
tho corittaCy, so important Ind neeess4 y
he interegtof commerce that the standard of our
le utt'l'4l44l4'4.tittltd mod pernosnent without entailing
syllief to the.Cteintry,..--(lleer, , hearo For this

reason I for one will not consent to any alteration in our
monetary system like to that which the Hon. Member
evidently has in view.--(Cheers,)
Mr. ATTWOOD h d alluded to • the currency systen;
as one of the causes or the great' distress which was ad.
mitted on all hands to prevail in 'the country, and which
he presumed would be the object of a general motion of
inquiry by his Majesty's Government. It was his opinion
that the changes which the Acts of 1819 and 1826 had
effected in the currency were the chief cause of that dis•
tress, and as such called most loudly for inquiry, with a
view to remedy.
SALARIES' AND PENSIONS (RESUMED.) j

Mr. SPENCE could not but join in the complaint
against time very defective return which h and been made to
that House of salaries and pensions, pursuant to the mo-
tion of last year of the Right Hon. Member for Cumber-
land. Numerous as were the abuses which that return
had made manifest, there were others which had been
*holly omitted that loudly called for redress. The House
would, perhaps, hardly believe that one individual, and
that ton n clergyman of the Church of England—(Hear)—
derived no less than 9,700/ a year from three civil offices
—namely, as Clerk of the Hanaper—as Prothonotary of
the Court of Chancery, and as a Commistioner of Bank-
rupts; and these, too, with a right of reversion.—(Lund
cries of " hear.")—Was it becoming that in the first
place one person should hold two such sinecures as these
offices must necessarily be, from the fact of their being
filled by an individual engaged in another civil depart-
ment—to say nothing of his duties its a clergyman—
(llear)—and was it becoming that a clergyman of time
Church of England should derive the greater portion of
9,700/. a year from the pockets of poor ineolvents ?
(Heer, hear.)—Unless Ministers took it upon themselves
to investigate the transaction, he would himself call the
attention of the House more specifically to it.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME could nut but feel no slight degree of eatie-
faction at the declaration of the lion. Members Respecting
the abuses of the public expenditure to be found in the
Civil List ; the rather, as he had long since and frequently
been urging them on the attention of the House. He en-
tirely agreed with what had fallen from Hon. Memb re as
to the necessity of a more perfect return of the salaries and
pensions p,id on the Civil Li,t, than that made in obe-
dience to the motion of the Right lion. Member for Cum-
berland. Indeed,lie was sure it would be found that not
more than three lourths of the actual amount of those
salaries and pension* had been stated in that return. He
had, months ago, proposed that all our expenditure, apart
from that for the interest of the funded debt, amounting to
not less than 21,000,00/. annually, should be thoroughly
silted by a Committee, with a view to a boon fide saving of
the public money, and would ask his Noble Friend (the
Chanceller of the Exchequer) whether he would himself
propose, after the recess, such a Committee, or assent to it
if proposed by him (Mr. Hume), or some other Hon.
Member unconnected with the Government? Had be
been present the other evening, when his Noble Friend
moved for his Committee on the salaries paid to the
several officers and clerksemployed in the civil department
of the public service, he would have urged on him that it
was a matter of much greater importance for Ministers to
apply themselves to get rid of the sinecures and highly
paid useless officers. -4 Hear.).-The feet was, that the
retrenchment system which Ministers bad hitherto deluded
the public with, was mischievous, not only because it so
deluded the public, but because it pressed upon the work-
ing and efficient persons in inferior offices, who had no
patrons to protect them ; while it left untouched the
monstrous sinecures, under the cloak of which the
hangers on of a vicious Government dragged thousands
upon thousands every year from an over-taxed people,—
(Hear.) Ile busted that a different course would be pur-
sued by the present Ministry, and that such a flagrant case
as that of a Clergymen of the Church of England holding
two or three sinecure offices by which he pocketted up-
wards of 9,0001. a year of the public money, which the
Hon. Memher for Reading hail just pointed out to the at-
tention of the Nouse, would not again challenge public in-
dignation. Let them, he repeated, do away with sinecures
and useless pensions, and not be too zealous in cutting
down the emoluments of time efficient working sub them of
office.—(Hear.) What right bad any Minister to con-
tinue many of the pensions of Ex-Ambemasadors now on
the Civil List? They were granted only during the life of
the Monarch whom the Ambassador represented,—and,
consequently, in fairness, should expire with the death of
time granter. He trusted that the new Ministers had not
committed themselves by continuing pensions to which it
was Vain the grantee had no legal nor motel claim, as he
contended was the case with all the Ex-Ambassadors of
his late Majesty, as well as other pensioners on time civil
list. With regard to sinecures, was it right that any
member of that House sl.ould possess a sinecure of 7,000/.
out of fees collected with great annoy once and inconvenience
to the public? It was his opinion that every one of these
sinecures should be rigidly exernined into, and that the
system of vested rights, except for the performance of due
and effective services, ought to be done away with. If
the Government were not able to make up their minds at
.present to ,grant him a Committee on this subject, he would
not press them more closely for an answer; be would
merely 'give notiscl, that if they did not grant it, lie would
move for its appointment on the first Thursday after the
recess. He could assure the Noble Lord that if such a
Committee was granted, he would rather sit upon it as a
Member of time Noble Lord's selection than of his own.
He would conclude by asking the Noble Lord whether he
would answer this question now, or postpone his answer
till he had given the subject further consideration.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
Ills lion. Friend the Member for Middlesex had asked him
whether he would have any objection to grant a Com-
mittee with power to inquire into the amount of sinecures,
pensions, and other useless salaries. In reply to that
question he would ask his lion. Friend to allow Ministers
to make inquiry into that subject themselves, and to make
such reduction% as they might themselves thick necessary.
When they had done all that they thought themselves
authorised to do in the way of retrenching such salat ies
and pensions, then would be the time for his Hon. Friend
if he were dissatisfied with their retrenchments, to come
forward with the motion he had threatened. All that he
could say at present WO, that Ministers intended to abolish
all offices, no matter whether they were high or low, which
were held by individuals performing no duties.—(Cheers.,
As far as they had yet gone in the formation of the Go

veritment, it must be evident to the House that they had
acted upon that principle.--(Hear.).—They had continued
no uffice th.tt was not known to be useful.—(Hear, bear.)
They had abolished sonic which were known to be use-
less.—(Cheers.)—And if in any department of the St ite
they could perform the pnblic service efficiently witk a less
number of clerks, they would not hesitate to reduce them,

no matter whom they offended.—(eneers.)—Thank God
the time when the country could be governed by patronage
was now put _(Lou and continued cheering.)—Where
the sacritice of office was the mere sacrifice of patronage,
it would be made without the slightest hesitation and with

the most unflinching spirit.--(Hear, hear.)—Where the
office was really useful, it would be kept up, and the
reasons for keeping it up would be left to the judgment of
the public.--(Cheers.)
Mr. GORDON had listened with great satisfaction to
the declaration which had just been made by the. Noble
Lord ; but did not know how to reconcile it with the re-
tention of two such useless office. as the Keeper of the
Privy Seal and the Chancellor of the Duehy of Lancaster.
--(llrar, bear.) As all pensions abated on the demise of
the Crown, he thought that the present was a very fit
time for passing all of them under review. He agreed
with his Hon. Friend, the Alember for Middles.; in

thinking that they ought to be considered as granted only
for the life of the grantor, and net also for that of the
grantee. • lint it was 'Aid that the grantee had a sort of
equitable 'rested interest in the continuance of his pension
for his own life. Ile denied that the grantee had any

such equitable right ; but even if he bad, it was surely
competent to Parliament to consider how it should be
treated.— ( Hear.) He was sorry to • say that the Pension
List was filled with the names of Cabinet Ministers, their
wives, sisters, daughters, and dependents--(Hear, hear).—
there they had been quartered on the public fur years, and
there they had continued to repose in the full enjoyment of
opulent indolerice, in spite of the vain attempts of his Hon.
Friend the Member for. Middlesex to drag Aleut before the

public. No matter how the Government changed, the
Chancellor of ,the EXcheqUer hid invariably adhered
to the practice of- tefusing Is give up the English
Pension ,Liit to the inspection. of the House. The
Scotch 'Pension List,.--and the: Irish Pension List, were
both given up ; but the English Pension List was too
full of lofty names a,tl aristocratic titles to be exposed to
theltrying gaze Of vulgar curiosity. The time, however, had
at length arrived, when the country would expeet the strict-
est- economy, and the most unflinching retrenchment,
and when any Government which refused to act upon
such principles would find it impossible to maintain -it.
ground in - the.; Confidence of the public. He bad-been '
told on a former eight that the Noble Lord had stated,
that such an econoroieal arrangement had been made: re-
gavaing The jUdieiarieribgenlents in behind as would give
complete satisfaction to the:country, when the completion
of thein-iiiiiliatoiloied.: .Now he could not say with eel,
tainti What those arrangements were; but he had. heard
from autitoritfwhick he was inclined to consider correct,
that tboAate4Lord Chancellor for Ireland, Sir A. Hort,
was to have.a.perusion. of 3,6p01. a year, aria that this ex?
pence tens sts.bcpartially met. by a reduction of 2,000/. a.

• year in the salary of 10,000/. a year, which had been
paid to all previous- Lord', Chancellors in thsitiOotantry.
Now, if this were correct, there was an additional pen-
sion of 1,600/. or-1,600/. it e'etr,serldleil upon the public,
fie had heard elan that the appointments made to other
high judicial situations had given great dissatisfaction in
that country ; but as it was not certain that those ap-
pointments were made, he would not comment further
upon them at present.
Sir R. BATESON raid, that the Duke of Northum-
berland, who had recently held the high Nitnetion of Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, had patriotically resigned 'i',ooo/. a-
year of the allowance merle to him as Lord Lieutenant.
He wished to ask the Noble Lord, whether it was the in-
tention of Government to fix the salary of the present
Lord 'Lieutenant at the amount of 20,0001. a-year, to
which it had been voluntarily reduced by the late Lord
Lieutenent.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER seid, that
with the permission of the House be would agetio trespass
for a short time upon its attention. His lion. Prim 1,
the Member for Cricklade, hid taunted him with ineon-
sietency, because be had said the Government had not
filled up any offices that were useless, when it was nnto•
rious that the Government had filled up the offices of
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Lord -Keeper
of the Privy Se J. Now with respect to the former of
these offices, the House must be aware that the revenue;
of the Duchy of Lanc.ster had never been considered ae
part of the revenues of the country; and until his Ma-
jesty submitted them of his own free accord as revenue to
the disposal of the House, he did not think that the Ifoume
ought to call upon his Majoity to sacrifice them.—
(Hear.)—llis Majesty had already sacrificed other parts
of the hereditary revenues of the Crown to Parliament
this Session ; and he could not see any reason why they
should cell upon his Majesty to sacrifice more. As to the
office of Lord Privy Seal in England and in Scotland, he
' could not admit that the office in either country was use-
less. In a monarchy constituted like our own, offices were
nut useless which connected the nobility with the Crown,
and thus supported the dignity of both. The question,
however, was very different, to far as regarded the salaries
of these offices. In both cases it would he competent for
the Committee recently appointed to take the amount of
those salaries into their consideration, and to sleet with
them as they thought expedient. That was the answer
which be had to give to the taunk. of his lion. Friend
the Member for Cricklade. As to the question which had
been put to him by the Hon. Member for the county of
Derry, he had only to reply, that be believed that the ar-
rangement was the same as it had been under his predeces-
sor.—(Cries of " No, no.")—He said, yes, yes : he meant
that a reduction had taken place ht the amount of the
salary.—(Hear.)
Sir E. B. SUGDEN said that be did not rise to defend

the c mtinuance of these patent places in Courts of Justice.
There was only one way in which the practice of granting
them in reversion could have obtained, and that was a feel-
ing that the patronage of such places enabled the Learned
Individuals engaged in the administration of justice to
make for their children a provision, which they could mot
make out of their regular incomes. He thought that the
income of the holder of the Great Seal should be sufficient
to maintain him and his family in the dignity to which be
was elevated. He would, however, have it paid differently,
and would give him a part of these fees for his income.
No one could defend the manner in which these patent
places were granted. They were not in the gift of the
Crown, they were in the gift of high legal officers ; they
fell into the poi& ration of their grantees at a distant period
—it might be into the hands of the children's children of
the granter; those bands might he unfit to receive them,
and in the mean time the administration of justice was
impeded. He did not think that all sinecures oeght to be
abolished ; it was necessary for every Ministry to have
some places which did not burden their occupiers with
lahour, as a remuneration for men who performed much
useful business for the public in the House which could
not he performed by those Members of the Administration
who had other active duties to perform. It really appeared
to him, that the Hon. Member for Middlesex was one of
those sapient reformers who would burden every one with
the utmost weight of labour, and pay him with the least
ammint of 'atm y.-:.-(Hear, and a laugh ; and a cry of
" No," from Mr. Hume.)
Mr. O'CONNELL contended that his Hon. Friend the
Member for Middlesex had never refused to pay well these
Trho had laboured wed. He protested, also, against the
principle of paying drone who worked well in our times,
not only in their own persons, but also in the persons of
their descendants to the third and fourth generations. He
considered it a great shame that a clergyman should derive
his income from fees drawn from the estates of bank-
rupts and insolvents ; and insisted that it was a reflection
on the administration of justice that such estates should
be burdened at all with the payment of fees. He con-
demned the mode in which the Pension List was filled
with titled beggars and aristocratical paupers. lie had
looked into the Irish Pension List, and he had not fourad
upon it the name of a single person, with the exception of
Lord Rodney, who had ever done the slightest good,—he
would not say to that country,—but to any country in the
world. There was a pension granted to one Robert Ash-
worth, Esq. Now he could not exactly say who
that gentleman was: but he believed him to be the
same person with a gentleman of huge estates and
princely fortune in the south of Ireland. Why was
he quartered upon the public ? Again, he saw a pen-
sion of 8001. a year (Irish)granted to one Robert Shaw,
Eq. Now this Robert Shaw wrs a gentleman of large
fortune, was Member for the city of Dublin, and had been
elevated to the rank of a Baronet. It was bard th.,t the
people of Ireland should be paying a pension of this
amount to such a person, and that they should have been
Paying it so long, wi.hout any knowledge of the services
which he had rendered them. •He was convinced that the
barefaced mode in which sinecures were given away to the
partisans of every Ministry never could be understood uc-
less the subject was investigated by a Committee. With
regard to the 'observations which had been made by the
'ion. Member for Cricklade, on the' Irish judicial appoint

ments, he was obliged to lament that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had omitted to give any explanation. If the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had unintentionally omitted
to explain them, he would immediately sit down and wait
for his explanation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose, and
said that he could net give any answer to the observations
which his Hon. Friend, the Member for Cricklade, had
mule on the subject of the Irish judicial appointments, as
he did not yet know the exact nature of their details. His
Hon. Friend was rightly informed as to part of the sub-
ject, but he really could not say whether the other state-

ments of his Hon. Friend were equally correct.
Mr. O'CONNELL then entered into a discussion of
the terms on which Sir A. Hart retired from, and Lord
Plunkett entered upon, the office of Lord Chancellor of
Ireland. It was not, however, the matter of pounds,
shillings, and pence , that he considered, either in this or
the other judicial arrangements, as the most deserving of
notice. There were other considerations far more im-
portant, both in their immediate and in their ultimate con-
sequences. Ile would submit to the House a suppmitious
ease, which he trusted would never be converted into
reality. He would 113 y, that if the administration of jus-
tice in Ireland should be handed over to one family,—if
system of nepotism should be permitted to prevail in the
courts of that country,—if the appeal from one bench to
another should merely he from one relative to another,—if
an opinion ►►could grow up even erroneously, that these re-
latives would be reluctant to reverse the judgments of
each other, lest they thould be thought to reflect upon
each other's character,---if a Judge should be made to re-
tire from the bench on the ground that he was too old and
too infirm for the proper discharge of the functions of his
office, and should- then be succeeded by another at least
equally, old and equally infirm,-.-and if to all this were
added the elevation to the bench of persons not known
in. the hall,, on whom the neglect of the public bad
pronounced sentence of incapacity, and who were only
raised into notoriety by the patronage of a Minister,
—lie watild ray that if all this were to take place, he
could not hold, out a more frightful picture than it
would Laird to the sight of hie country. He was deal-
ing, lie admitted, on this occasion more in iminuation than
in assertione. He did not mean to say that the appoint•
areas which were rumoured hail been made, but if they
should be made, let those who made them be held re.pun-
tibia for the consequences. If it should again be said by
another Lord Chancellor, as it had already been said by
one Lord Chancellor, that in Ireland the law was badly

niatered for both poor and rich, the consequence.
would indeed be mod deplorable. It would be then no

excuse fur a Whig Ministry to say that they had not pro-
moted their ft ieods, but their netlike to the bench, as the

answer would be immediate that they ought to have
selected better. men. He. hoped, that these appointments
were not made : if he was certain that they were made,
he would ware all. perms& delicacy, and arraign, he might
even say impeach, the advisers of such ill judged appoint-
moats. , Ho hoped, however, that these appointments
would: not be wade without consulting the Iri.h hob and
Without ascertaining whether the facts which he had
stated were or were not correct. In the whole course of
his political life nothing had been more painful to hint
than the course which he thew felt himself imperiously
called, upon to pursue; for no man could be more anxious

then lie- was io sem). rt a, Ministry which professed its

great anxiety to promote peace abroad, retrenchment 3,t
hotne,'and Reform in Pat liatnenL
Sir E. B. SUGDEN,- in explanation, stated that belted
never said that the children's children of any man who de.
served well of his country, should lie provided for at the
cast of the public nut of the-fees paid tor the administra.
tine of justice,—quite the reverse. lie had only expressed
a wish that the income of the Keeper of the Great Se II
should be of such ati amount as would enable Min to pro-
vide for him children out of it in a manner suitable to the
rank to Which Ins hail elevated himself and hire
Mr. 110131N50'241 protested::;;:last the doctrine laid
down by the Hon. and Learned (lent) man, more
against the practise than the doctrine of Government
paying individuals with sitSeenre plasma for coming down
to that House to perform its business, or, in other words,
to support its measures.—(ifear.)-11e called the present
Government to rimdiate once and for all such assistance:
—(Cheers. )--Ministers had only to follow the honest, up.
right, and conscientious line of conduct which the Nob'e
Lord had marked nut for himself, in order to find that the
onerous task which former illinisters had endured in de-
fending their expective measly-es, would be in their
ease_ materially lessentd.—(Cheers.)—ln reply to the
question which hal been asked regarding the
salary paid to our Arnbasardor at the Court of
France, he was sorry ta hoar the Noble Lord opposite
declare that the late Government had reviewed the
allowances made to our Ambass tdors and Consuls, and re-
duced them to a certain extsta, and that our preSent Am-
hassador to the Court of France went out, of course, upon
the same salary as his predecessor. If this were the case,
it would appear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and
his colleagues were determined to pay the same salaries to
Ambassadors and Consuls as the late Government. Now
when the Noble Lord and his colleagues were in oprosition,
they regularly opposed the payment of those salaries ; anti
therefore, if they acted consistently with their old declares
they ought instantly to inquire into this subject.
He did not wish to say one word in derogation of the tits
lents of our Ambassadors ; hr. dared to say, that in diplo-
matic knowledge, they were fully competent to the dis.
charge of their duties : but this ohservation be could not
refrain from making—namely, that no country was worse
served than our own by its Ambassadors in matters of trade
and commerce. They were evidently inadequate to such
subjects, and the consequence was, that in all commercial
treaties they had been regularly overmatched. In conclu-
siou, be expressed a hope that he had misunderstood the
expression of the Noble Lord with regard to the salary to
be paid to our Ambassador at Paris.
Lord PALMERSTON was certain that the Hon.
Member for Worcester could not have attended to the
subject matter of his former answer. Ile had stated that
the last Government bad reviewed the scale on which the'
salaries of our Ambassadors and Ministers abroad hail
been formed, and had proposed a lower scale for them.
He had likewise stated that any Minister now going abroad
would go out on that reduced ac de. He bad also added,'
that even that scale would undergo the review of the pre-
sent Administration. They would deal with it as they
thought fit, and would judge whether it was still too high
for the duties which our Ministers abroad had to discharge.
--(Cheers.) He did not say that the salaries which the
last Government had patronized, would of course Ise the
salaries which the present Government would patranize.
—( Hear, hear ) Ile had said that the embassy to Paris
was the only one of our embassies in which the salary
allowed to the Authassrdor had not teen reduced by the
late Government, the Noble Lord who had just been
appointed to that embassy was going out upon the salary
as it now stood, on the understanding, however, that that
salary was lia4lo to revision—and if to revision, to reduc-
tion also.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Worcester
seemed to think that this country was worse served than
any other by its Ambassadors, but he (Lord Palmereton)
was glad to bear that he limited that asset tion to the ser-
vices of our Ambassadors in matters of trade and com-
merce. If we had been badly served on such subjects, the
blame was attributable to the Ministers at borne more
than to them, for none of our Ambassadors mold make
treaties without the assent of their supeeiors at home.—
Ile (Lord Palmerston) 'lid not know to what the Hon.
Member fur Worcester was specifically alluding ; but it
appeared to film that the Hon, Member's criticism applied
rather to those who were the heads, than the organs of
past Administrations.
Sir E. 13. SUGDEN complained that h s meaning had
been entirely misconstrued by the Hon. Mein ber for Wor-
cester ; he had never meant to contend that Members of
that House ought to be paid for coming down to it to vote
far Ministers. He rneant to say that those who took an
active share in the Administration, without holding ntlices
in it, ought to be rewarded for their services by holding
these sinecure places.
Sir J. YORKE confessed that be was lamentably dis-
appointed by the conduct of the new Administration. They
had come into office with professions of the moat unflinch-
ing retrenchment on their lips, and,yet their first mernoirva
had been to burden the country with an unnecessary re-
tiring pension for an Irish Lord Chancellor, and tostend
out a new Ambassador to Paris with the same emoluments
as his predecessor in office. It would be a lamentable
prospect indeed for the cottony to set before it, if the pre.
sent set of men had only come into power to follotv thus
in the footsteps of their predecessors. If they should ad-
here to their promisee as to unflinching retrenchment and
moderate Reliant), they certainly should have his (Sir J.
Yorke's) support; but if they did nut; he would most
undoubtedly oppose them.
Mr. IL TWISS asserted that it was a great mistake to
suppose that the Privy Seal was u needless office. 'With
recant to the pensions on the Civil List, and the promises
which the present Ministers had made of reducing them,
he should only say that he hoped they would not place the
Sovereign in the way of creating an immense mass of pri-
vate distress—greater than had been canned by any of his
predecessors. Ile trusted that the reductions which were
contemplated would be confined to the offices during plea-
sure, and that Ministers would not attack what had been
always considered by those wh ) held them as vested in-
Wrests. Such a mode of proceeding would utterly defeat
the objects of the retrenchment which the Ministers pro-
fessed to have in view.

Mr. WILKS ridiculed the advice which had been given
by the Learned Member to Ministers, and condemned in
the strongest terms what be had slid about vested inte-
rests, as if their being considered so should prevent the
• reduction of places and pensions. Ile expressed a hope
that the fame of the existing Government would 1n founded
upon the extension of freedom, of reduction, and of reform,
which should be effected by it.
Lord MORPETH said that he could answer for it, on
the part of his Noble Relative, to whom allusion had been
made, that he would be most ready and wibing to adopt
any recommendation coming from that !louse with regard
to his salary abroad. Ile maintained that it was only just
to give the present Government a fair opportunity to re-
deem the pledges which they had made with regard to re-
tienehment--that they should be afforded time to draw the
sword from the scabbard, and that it was not to be ex-

peeled from them that they should all at once do every
thing they had promised.
Mr, Alderman WAITIIMAN contended that the salary
of 11,000/. a.year to an Ambassador at Paris was mon.

etrously excessive, and that it was quite indefensible in the
present times, and under the existing rircuinitancarof the
country. . He regretted that suchit salary was not at once
reduced as it ought to be.
Mr. R. GRANT was sorry to hear persons in that
' House, who had professed themselves determined to sup.
port the Government, thus expressing what lie must call a
premature distrust towards that Government. He gave
his support to the Government because lie found it one
based upon the principles of retienolunent and economy,
and, is Justice to his constituents, be would, in the first
instance, have flinched from giving his. support to the
Government if he had. nut a perfect confidence . in
its psofeesions. The principle of the present Govern.
meat he understood to be, first, the abolition of all
useless offices • and secondly, the adjustment of the .saln.
ries in the office, allowed to continue, in such a manner
as that they should bear a fair proportion to the duty
dons.-..(Hear, hear, hear.)—Their principle. was, that
where there were no services given, there should be no sa-
lary paid, and thst the office should at once be abolished.
There must, it was plain, he less hesitation where an of.
fire was lit/8011141y useless in abolishing it altngether, than
in determining, where an office was. to remain, in what
manner the salary attached to that Olive should be ad.
justed. He (.Ul,,
R. Grant) felt no doubt that to the full
extent which a proper economy required, and at no distant
period ton, the titlark* given .to ambassedors in this
and every other instance would be adjusted to the services
krformed•—(Hear, hear.) It was too much to call upon
Ministers not only to commence an inquiry for that pur-
pose, but to pronounce a decision at once., The main
support of the present Government was. nut to he found in
that Honer,. nor in its advocates, in that House, but in the
faithful fulfilment of the pledges which they had given;
and it was not upon the friendship of the enlightened per-
sons who gave them their support in that House that they
wel'e "hilt to rely, but upon the friendship of the pen.
pies who would, not indeed with at blind feeling of eon&
dears, mete out their friendship
to them as they would
mete out a reward for other services, only in proportion as
they deserved
Me MABERLY said that his proposition was, that
time should be given to the Government to fulfil their
Pledges* and if they did' not, he certainly would not give

them his support. His opinion was, that they should not
deal with officers or salaries abstractedly, but generally ;
and it appeared to him that it was upon a principle of
classification with nat. I to pensions and salaries that re-
din:dons should be effected. The present was the only
Government tint piece :eel the rrieciple of econotnyo He
did not deny that the :we Gov, entneut did nut do a Crest
deal in that way, but they di I not profess the principle of
economy afro! Reform. Of this he wile certain, that up to
the last moment it wits the determined resolution of tire
late Cabinet that there should he no Reform, and the
Duke of Welling/ten hid peen tie only wee. to declare it
lie did not see any use in attentring to drive on it. Oevere-
teacot which, like the present, was determined to do what
was rigor. sets cure th it the present Government
this country ; it wa. not to them',bet to the people that
could not lank fur mud, eoppport from the Arista of
they must look, and if they 811001 be defeated upon
the qoestioo of Reform in that House, he would tell them,
let them ilistolve !het House —( Loud cheers) —and let
diem app. al to the people, dm:, he would answer for it dust
the people would give them a tiinterhent majority.—
(Continued cheering.) That wee the cotife !which be
(Mr. Aieberly) woMil recommend :Ministers ta Wept
under earth eireemstancee, and by pursuieg it they might
reckon with conVence open the support of the people.
Mr. T. P. COURTENViIIe contended, that the late
Government professed acid inirsited the principle of re
trenlOhtnent and economy more than any prectolin Go-
vernment e'er had done. The reduction.' which they bail
diet.d were not conrmed merely to the salaries of clerks,
but they extended to those oft:cee which were 'many given
fir the purpose of patronage.. That iit?rosiple had been
rigidly acted upon by the Duke of Wellington iN;iY.: at the
heal of the late Government.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK could state, in answer
to what fell from an Hurt. Alemlier opposite, respecting
the gaieties of Amhassethire, that the A tnbaseador of the
citizen King of the French and the reformed Chamber.
had, at this moment, a salary of 12,0001. a year, acid a
house, the came as our Amhastodor at Paris.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, without Filing into the va•
done points that ha I b 'en introduced, a fit Operortnnity of
discussing which would occur hereafter, would say it woid
or two to point out the errors which sonic Hon. Members
had fallen into as to true Reform. With respect to Am-
bassadors, he did not say that some reductions might not
be made in their salaries, but he must say more were net
paid more than those of other countries at tide motet. On
the subject of the reduction of the office of Lord•Lieutei
mint, he hail not voted when it was brought forward be-
fore. Haviug some doubt on the case, he had not at-
tended that debate. He would, however, now etate that
the keeping up of that office wits not consistent with no-
tions of strict economy ; lint he put it to the Hon. Mem.
her whether, in the present excitement in England, it
would be a well-timed economy to do that which would
tend to cause discontent and excitement in Ireland, merely
because Hon. Members, now at that (die Ministerial) side
of the House, bad once r xpreseed an opinion that it ought
to be reduced? Would it not he bett r to Wait for a
more favourable opportunity of reduction of that part of
the establishment ? On the subject of the government of
the Duke of Wellington, he had on a former occasion ex-
pressed his opinion that that government was less corrupt
and mu; e, eminumical than those which had preceded it,
and he acid en still, but he mug also say that it did net
understand the real cheuntatancis and feelings of the
country. Of the want of economy Of former Govern,
memo they had the tali st denin'tig 'stoas on the tkWe tel
the Hotiee, which ought to make tome individuals blush
tor those connected with them. He did not arty this of
the Duke of Wellington, hut there were instances of pro-
ffigete expenditure which it would be the duty of Govern-
Silent to restrain, or expose the country to a stoic. lie
repeated that the Duke of Wellington's government did not
underetand the true feelings of the country; they Acted on
an avowed resistance to Reform, which, in his opinion, if
longer delayed, would undoubtedly have exposed the mo-
narchy and the aristocracy in one common ruin.
Mr. T. 13. LENNARI) declared hie entire confidence
in the present Government. If Hon. Members asked
what they had done, let them recollect that they wire now
only three weeks in office ; but even in that time they had
evinced a disposition to take those steps of economy and
retrenchment which the at-maiden of the country required.
Mr. cirrissor PELHAM next addressed the House,
but was altogether in audible in thelgidiery•
Air. HUME wished to know from the Nelde Lord
whether he would consent to suspend all promotion in the
army and navy for one year, until time should be given to
inquire what reductions big lit be manic in the dead
weight, We had now eight naval officers for one that
was necessary, and of army officers an immen e number
more than was wanted, yet the system of promotion and
commission* were going on, thus adding to., the perms.
rent expense of the country. He would ven‘ure to say,
that promotion was going on under the late Government
SA rapidly es when we had a thiamin(' pentinnte floating on
the ocean, and a force of 600,000 men under arm..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it was intended to take the dead weight into consideration,
to ascertain how far the country could be relieved by re-
ductions in that way. He was disposed to be as sparing
of promotion as circumstances would permit ; but lie
owned he could not suspend all promotion for one year. It
would be extremely injurious to the public service, par-
ticularly in the naval service.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that in justice to the
Noble Lord lately at the broil of the Admiralty, he ought
to state that he had made a rule not to dive any promo-
tion until three vacancies (recurred in that class. A simi-
lar errangement had been made with reepect to the ma-
rines. These had met the expressed approbation of the
Hun. Member for Middlesex, who hoped that the Nuble
Lord, at that time at the head of the War Department,
would adopt a similar practice with respect to the army.
He uilmitted that it would it would be unfair to press too
hard on Ministers in individual cases. He was more diso
pored to Joule at the tvhole principle of reduction on which
they acted ; but they must remember that if such cases
were now poised, it arose from the conduct of many
Hon. Members now at the other (the Ministerial) aide,
who, %vireo they sat at that (the Opposition) side, were'
not content with viewing the whole principle of reduce'
tion, but were constantly- urging Government on indivi-
duel cases. The Noble Lurd (John Russell) had said
that the Duke of Wellington's Government lied not un-
derstood the principle of economy. lie (Sir George
Clerk) hoped that the present Government would be able
to carry their Views of economy to the SAMS extent, but
he fussed they would find it difficult to carry them to the
extent which would he required at their hande.
Mr. 11013 HOUSE observed that he and his Hon.
Friends iu the same situation with himself were greatly
embarrassed by having two Governments, the late and the
present, to deal with. In his opinion it had been truly
stated by the Noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces,
that the Duke of Wellington did not understand the feet
jogs of the times, and did not go along with them as he
ought in the. belief of the necessity of the utmost economy
and retrenchment. At the rune time ire was ready to
confess that the late AdininietrAtion had gone as far as the
corrupt system of that House and of the Constitution of
the Government allowed them. Ent with respect to their
going limiter, to their trying a new and constitutional
mode of governing the country, that House had the best
evidence to the contrary in the declaration made by the
Noble Duke hinted'', who had told the House of Lords,
and it Will fertellitte fur that House, and fur the country,
that he had openly told them he was determined nut
to try that new system which this country was now
resolved, and the present Government determined,
should be tried for the salvation of the community....
(Hear, bear.)---He would not cavil with the opinion of
that .illuetrinui person, but he believed that the Noble
Duke WAS consistently the friend of the old, 14 Its (Mr.
Hohbouse) and his kinds were of the,aen, system. Un-
der these eircurnstauces, he could not hot believe that
the Noble Lord was right in saying that the Duke of Wel-
lington did not understand the circumstances of the Cowie
Thole circumstances were such that no Government could
now succeed without trying the new system : lie defied
them to do without it. lie lived, perhaps, more amongst
the people, for he was one of the people, than most other
other Members, and he knew their opinions. He Wes
sure that if gentlemen saw the circumstance* and signs
elf the times, as he saw them, they must be convinced
that public opinion was running in a current which could
not now he opposed by the present Government, and would
never by any who might follow them, be in the slighteet
degree controulled.—(Hear, beer.) lie had no doubt that
the present Ministers meant well—how could be doubt
it?...-.he, who bad for so many years fought side by side
with theme—who had heard their oft-expreseed opinions
on the questions of Reform and Retrenchment—how
could Ire believe that they were own who would betray
and destroy at once their duty to the people and to them-
selves ? He bad the beet guarantee to the contrary--
he had that of their °wit charactor—he had the
knowhelge of them privately, and he saw what wee
their course in their public duty. His confidence in
them had rather increasol ..thiriug the last three
weeks ; he had heard from that beech language which
be never expected to have heard from it—he meant

the language of patriotism from men in of who
wore mat in whom he conCled. They had not only not
dienged their opinion and their etuadurt, but had rather
given greater pledges of the sincerity of their tinnier opi.
tuns. They placed their dependence ott the people, end

they maild not be disappointed; het he wished to guard
client az lime the adviee givea them by the Yore. and
Right Hon. Members who sit on that side of the House,
having recently come over there fermi the rporisite benchee.
Hy some of there honourable Meuiltele it had lately been
said that John Bull was -a great gentleman, end of course
must have servants like a great -irentleuruo—servanta, in
1 fact, who, like those of Doe Quixote, would do what
they pl nosed with their masters. In that mom:. the
ereat gentleman would he in a fair way to become A poor
eentleroce, He protested against the use of such hotline:it,
and he areittred the House that the public felt most strongly
eley could not alillird to play the great gentleman in that
outliner. Sc far from it, indeed, that the public did
not tike even their efficient officers to be overpaid. It
was attprowil that the public did not think the omen
overpaid who really did the !Animate of the State—
it was a mistake, there was a general—almost an uni..
yenta; feeling, that many Of them were over-paid ; and, if
I the public wish were attended to. many of them would be
reduced ; end it must be attended to, in order to keep pub-
lic faith, and to support those berthene Which enabled the
country to keep ifself in its present situation iti Europe.
He repeated his caution. tat hie friends opposite, sod he
i gave them this advice in a spirit of true friendships for,
when ;:r, observed the Hon. and Right Hoe. Gentlemen
newly arrived on that side of the Howie cheering the Ho-
nourable Gentlemen opposite, he began, like a celebrated
character of antiquity, to teepee that the latter had said
some very foolish thing. Ifs called on them, therefore, to
depend on themselves, and on then:reeler/ alone ; for he lie-
Hever! that they had bath the will and the power to do meal
service to the toontry—he believed, indeed, as was said of
them the other night, that they were pissed between
the country and destruction. He was happy to ire that
they were nut *opposed in a vexations enstiner—a circom.
stance which did infinite credit to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, late Secretary for the Home Deportutent.—(llsar,
hear, hear.) No symptomi ef faction had yet appeared
in that Mane ; he trotted it would be left te the other
[loose of Parliament, or to lay other place--(hear, bear).—
hut let them remember, that they were tent thither by the
people to do the work of the people for the benefit of the
people..--(Hear, bear, hear.) While he had reason to
1 khink the Ministry held the same sentiments All those they
formerly professed, and while they seemed to art on those
sentiinente, they should hive his sordid support.
Mr. 11. 'MISS did not wish to hart it go forth that
he had given his stiviee that salaries should be touched at
one aide or the other. What he advised was, that the re-
duction* should only extend to offices held at the pleasure
of the Crown, but not to those held for life.
Mr. I-1011110USE explained.
O'CONNOR DON said stew words, inandihle in the
gallery.
Mr. BLANEY said that the present Administration had
come in upon the principles of reweaehment and reform,
and upon those principles clone he would give them his
support, and that he would abandon ilium when they &-
Betted their principles,
The SPEAKER then 1,4 the Chair, and
The CHANCELLOR of the 11C.XCHEQUER said, that
in the motion he was about to make he thought the hest
course he could ;tonne was to state the supplies he in-
tended to require, and then to set forth the ways and
mewls. .The vote he required wits, en account of the
army, 7,450,0001,, for the navy 6,694,0001., for the
ordnance 169,5001., and for the ittiwellineone expenditure
1 930,0001., snaking in time whale 16,00.0001. This,
with payments amounting to 750.0004 on account of Ex.
elieqUer Mlle, and 300,0001 on account of the Cird List,
would make a total of 17,698,000/. To meet this sum
there would be received from the Elio India Company
60,0001., a surplus of last year of 85,0001., on account
of the sugar dole* 3,000,0001., re-payments of Exche-
quer Bills 182,000/, anti from the Consolidated Fund
12,500,0001, making a tote', of is,ats,stool. In order
to make up the amount of 3liti supply, Him would. be re-
quired a aunt of 1,850,0004. *0 be Worn from the Comm.
Waled Fund. The supplies having been voted !by the late
Milliliters, he was not easel upon to defend them, but he
creodtiulicieuducilli t erritehlai:uillest.ibbaia.".7lltohew7osPolPrfosorltlYbrwreriluoustjdair:
that the expectations ef tits. wintry wow great, but he
begged to say that the desire which hand his friends en..
tertained to effect every • poasildt redaction .Was real and
earnest, and if the reduction should proveleas than were
expected, he still trusted that the eountly would give theirs
respect for their intentions. ile should now move that
the suns of 1,850,0001. los granted front the Comoolittetett
Fund, towards the ways and means of Hie 'current year.
Mr. 11. GORDON hilted that the Government would
make their estimates next year, so that there would be no
necessity to watch them so closely, and that he might say
upon this subject that his aveeation was gone. These mr-
titnates were made on the Ist of Joinery, printed in Fe-
bruary, and not voted until June or July, so that they could
nut be tinder the controel of the Homo. An feet, the town
was AlreielY spent before, the Ifintee,wita walled upon to vote
it. When the Mow was taut year milled upon s 4 vote
100,0001. for the repairs of Windsor .Getttles• -.75.0001., of
the money was already spent. The Ft 104. 040intites.-m cry
voted one year in advance, and therefore..thesapenditure
was tinier the controul of the Chambers. ,Ale hoped. that
next Session the estimates would he fur at least six quarters.
Ht regretted that Government had been filling tip several
offices which were totally ineMelent. The Nabletord,who
now filled the Woolsack hail rascally argued.ime that .lionise
that the wountry had a right it expect that the Crown
would resign all its rights in the Dnehy ofLaneasters and
he hoped that the new Ariminietretion would follow op this
opinion. lie regretted that Ministers bad 6161 up the office
of Postmaster-General, although five eoccesteivie Committees;
had positively recommended that the office should be abo-
lished. He could assure the Noble Lord that be.stood in
a roost enviable situation--(livar end laughter).-olie mations
the enviable situation of proving Want& the friend of the
people, and in his efforts to do this ht might depend upon
being hacked by the country at large. The Noble Lord
ought at once to sweep away all nail** Oftliee and patron.
age, and he would make far himself a name by far trans.'
cending wliat could he derived from ancestry, a. greater
name than any person had possessed who had Ailed that
situation,
The CITANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said,
that if the lion. 111ernher expected of him the immediate
abolition of every place that was useless, he might seek
more than it would be in his power to perform. His in.
quiriem, he pledged, should be conducted with rigid tee-
twiny, and he was eertein!y anxious to reduce as Minh as
possible every place that Was not really useful. Where
two or mere places might be aombined in one office, be
thought that by smiting them a great reduction might be
made. Ile trusted, however, that after the recess he
should be able to bring forward some proposition that
would convince the House that he was in cameo.—
(neer, hear.)—He had never rested the defence of
any office upon the influence of the Crown in that House;
he had never made our.of arty such expression ; though
lie would say that he thought it, rigid in a monarchy,
that the links of the chain should ties he so completely
disconnected a, 1444 weans, wiehedi Allusion had been
made to the office of the Great 'Seal in Sootlited. This
wits the only °Moto( the tow! now left in Scotland; it was
ooe of greet dignity, and it was specially reserved by the
Union, but still the salary cork should be submitted to
the Committee. The Great Privy Seal had been alluded
to as a modem office, but he could *our* the House
that i member of the Cabinet had 110 sinecure, for his
duty was onerous end responsible. It would be necessary
ilti:atiiceuvilsylae change the
I:l".blerlheneo Minister,lll :hrhreona dt:64yalldiar;;6labe:ide f)yasi :11 Ira. He
yl: abolished 0
o's toaste
viofeurttabh4l:eiiO sensorcpa thete
tronage—atteh as the Vice- Treautureihip of' Irelands' and
the junction of the Treasurership of 401441 ind the Board
of Trade. They *leo ebollehed 'the effitse if Preit.Master.
Gomel of lreleml, and that' of Liiiiinant.fleneral of the
Ordinate*, and 'a scale of rodietiii wotild hi' extended to
*mailer places. &Vett ur sight "aim not reported ageism
by any Committee had been' abolished. With respect to
the office of Post-Matter-Garterols it atertelaly had been
reported against by A Cortimittite, bet he hoped that the
arraneements to be mad. in this department would meet
with the approbetion of that, them He could aunts the

country the he did not fie' himself in a viry enviable si-
tuation. Much tiptcratioa had bets raises! by thoor With
whom for years he had Wert acittetotntol to act, and- he
thought they ought to give him tomtit that he would nut
de‘ert the what(' conduct of hit life.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN expresecl his entire cc.
tisfaction at what slur Noblo Lord had declartd, end
said that he for one woo dioposti to plate tonlidenco in
his professions.

lt-fr. lIUAW thought that all estimates ought' to he laid
before the House for three mouths before any rote upon
them was calird for. The war military establishment
ought not to he kept op in time of pow, antl he Will
afraid that Minibtent would be throwing away tiiillioes
whilst they were seeing slily "thousands. The *netted
taco, he maintained, ought, to be rediseed, esid the Crown
lauds should be sold. This Duchy of Corriwiel was
managed au as to product only 6,000/: a year, whilot
scoured fifteen Member, in that Haus*,
Sir J. YORKE had alwayit hoard 'that extremes wcro
had, but of all extremes, that of putting dowu the
force of the country at a onsia like the littiestal Wo"14
be the very worst—the very proposities uogikt to rnitio
any Hun. Alembar to a straight Wailktalliv The #
,n";"'
m
Was a time at whisk the ar ta4l 4.400 1141*