The Sun.
London, England, 1837-04-28 00:00:00

JUSTICE TO IRELAND.

Last evening a numerous meeting of the Reformers of
the borough of Finsbury was held at the Finsbury Hall of
Science, City-road, for the purpose of expressing their
sympathy with the people of Ireland in their endeavour to
obtain justice, and for the purpose of petitioning the House
_ef Lords to pass the Irish Municipal Bill, as adopted by
the Commons. Amongst the gentlemen on the platform,
we noticed Daniel M I'. ; T. Wakley, M.P.;
Colonel Thomp;on, M.P. ; Mr. Gallaway, Mr. IL Taylor,
Mr. Saul, and other gentlemen who are. ideutitied with the
Cause of progressive Reform. Colonel THomPsoN, M.P.,
was ealled to the Chair.
The CHAIRMAN then said, that the object for which the
meeting bad been called together was, to petition'the House
of Lords to pass the Irish Municipal Reform Bill. It was,
however, fortunate that the success of that measure did not
depend altogether upon whether the Lords were pleased to
pass or reject it.—( Hear.) They met as a free people, de•
termined to attain justice to a part of the community from
which it had hitherto been withheld, and the time Would as-
suredly come, notwithstanding all the efforts of the House of
Lords, when they would be successful in their endeavours.
If that success was retarded fora brief time he knew that.
they would not abate one jot of-their hopes. All example.
bad gone to prove that it was impossible, with the intelli-
gence that was rapidly spreading throughout the count ra , that
justice could be long delayed. They all knew the origin of
the House of Lords. Once they possessed the physical
power of the country, but they did not possess it now.—
(Cheers.) That power existed but in opinion. It was a
belief that it was expedient that they should form a third
branch of government that preserved them ; and he would
warn them how they raised up a public persuasion that in-
justice was the reason of their action. Under all circum-
stances he did not think they ought to despond.—(Cheers.)
• Mr. RICHARD TAYLOR then rose to move the following
resolution :—" That, in the opinion of this meeting, it is
just and necessary that every portion of these kingdoms be
invested with equal civil and municipal rights." The Bill
now before the House of Lords merely demanded that the
same measure of justice that had been extended to England
and Scotland should. be dealt out to Ireland—(Hear)—and
he put it to every Englishman present, if Ireland, which had
been long oppressed and trodden under foot, should not be
placed in that position to which she was entitled ?—(Hear,
hear.) Upon the question of the repeal of the Test and
Corporation Acts, the Irish Catholics postponed the
consideration of their claims in order that the English
Dissenters might have theirs fully and fairly con-
sidered.—( Hear, hear, hear.) This being the case, the
people of England ought to give up, for a
while, all considerations with respect to the grievances
under which they yet laboured, in order that they might
work more ardently in the cause of Ireland.—(Applause.)
And after all, this question of Irish Municipal Reform was
as good a question as any other to try the powers of the
people in opposition to that of the Lords, who seemed de-
termined to put a stop to all reform.—( Hear.) At all
events he trusted that, if the Lords threw out the Bill,
the people of England would devote themselves to agita-
tion, for at least two or three years, until equal justice was
done to Ireland.—(Cheers.) After some further observa-
tions, Mr. Taylor concluded by moving the above resolution.
Mr. SAUL seconded the resolution, which was then put
from the chair and unanimously agreed to.
Mr. HEwITT observed that the Tories had given as a
reason for not granting improved municipal institutions to
Ireland that the people of that country were not en-
lightened. If-this were true, to whom were the people of
Ireland indebted for their intellectual darkness,? Why, to
the very men who now wished to deprive them of' civil
rights on this shallow and miserable pretext. He con-
cluded by proposing the following resolution :—" That Ire-
land having for many ages groaned under a system of mis-
rule, founded on/and supported by the denial of their
rights, it is now imperatively demanded by the enlightened
spirit of the age, and rendered essential to the peace and
security of these kingdoms, that in political and municipal
privileges, Ireland should be placed on a footing of equality
with England and Scotland."
Mr. VINE seconded the resolution, which was put from
the Chair, and unanimously adopted.
Mr. H. SMITH moved the third resolution :—" That the
Irish Municipal Reform Bill recently adopted by the House
of Commons, and now under discussion in the House of
Lords, is in the opinion of this meeting a most salutary
though tardy measure of justice to Ireland ; and that it is
highly desirable that it should become part of the law of
the land with as little delay as possible." He said the
tricks of the Tories to injure the cause of the people were
of the most extraordinary and extravagant description. He
would give them an instance. In the last Northampton-
shire election, a magistrate told an elector, that if he voted
for Mr. llanburv, who was opposed by Mr. Maunsell, he
would be voting for O'Connell—(A laugh)—and that he
would see the Protestants of England burned at the stake.
—<Laughter.) This was a specimen of the tricks that were
played off by the Tories in the country parts of England,
where they expected that the people would be duped by
them. —; Hear.)
Mr. WINN seconded the resolution, which was, like the
otl:ers, unanimously adopted.
Mr. COMBES then moved this resolution :—" That this
meeting, concurring with the foregoing resolutions, deter-
mine to petition the House of Lords to pass the Irish Mu-
nicipal Reform Bill."
It was also adopted ; and Mr. WINN read the petition,
which was an echo of the resolutions. When he came to
that part of the petition where it said that the petitioners
had confidence " in the wisdom of your Lordships' House,"
the laughter was most immoderate.
Mr. WAKLEY then came forward, and was received with
loud cheers. He said that they had amongst them one of
the most extraordinary men of the present day.—(Loud
cheers.) lie made this statement seriously, as he considered
that the people of England were deeply indebted to Mr.
O'Connell for the very great exertions which he had made
in the cause of constitutional liberty for the last forty years.
—(Cheers.) For himself he would say, that he owed that
gentleman a debt of the deepest gratitude. He respected
him as a patriot, and lie loved him as a friend.—(Applause.)
It was true that Mr. O'Connell had his enemies, who reviled
and calumniated him ; and if he were not calumniated, of
what use would he be to us ?—( Hear.) When his enemies
ceased to calumniate him, the people might depend upon it
that Mr. O'Connell had ceased to be their friend.—( Hear.)
His Hon. Friend had often said that he was the best-abused
man in the world.—( A laugh.) He ( Mr. W.) hoped that he
might one day or other be able to say that be occupied the
second place nigh his Hon. Friend in this respect. There
was no nation upon the earth that had been oppressed as
Ireland had been. It was the western Poland—( Hear)—
and while Ireland continued to be oppressed, they would
have two Polancla to sympathis'e for,—(Loud cheers.) He'
admitted that the Government did not go far enough in

SOUTHWARK.

support of the cause of the peop!e of this country ; but
when he heard from Mr. O'Connell that the King's Minis-
ters were the friends of Ireland—that they had destroyed
the base and iniquitous Orange faction, and had given con-
fidence and hope to the people of Ireland—(Hear)—when,
he said, he heard all this, and that, too, from one who had
always proved himself the friend of the people, was he to
be blamed that he had given his best support to a set of
men who were thu3 estimated ; .and was he not justified
also in calling on the people of England to allay their
own grievances to remain in abeyance until full and com-
plete just'co was done to Ireland ?—(Applause.) The ob-
ject of the Tory faction was to keep the people of England
and Ireland discontented. If the people of England were
to meet as those of the borough of Finsbury had, where
were the Lords that could oppose their will ?—( Hear.)
These Lords only existed by the will of the people. Tuere
was a time when they had ceased to exist. That time
might come again. If the people came into collision with
the Lords, how, he shook' be glad to know, would their
Lordships meet them ? Was it by placing their carriages
in•the way ? Was it by throwing down their coronets
upon the beads of the people ?—( Hear, hear.) Oh, it
would be a ,goodly sight, to see the Peers thus placed in
opposition to the people.—(Laughter and cheers.) The
Bill which was now before the House of Lords for reform-
ing the Municipal Corporations of Ireland, was assented
to by a majority of the R-presentatives of England, Ire-
land and Scotland ; and yet when this Bill went up to the
house of Lords, Lord Lyndhurst—(Groans)—said that
" he would never consent to its being passed into a law."
—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He would not give his con-
sent indeed ; and who was this personage that thus placed
himself in opposition to the wishes of the people ? Why

one who was pocketing 5,000/. a-year of the people's
money for doing nothing, except indeed his hostility to the
demands of the people could be considered an equivalent for
the money that he received.—( Hear.) Oh, if Radical Re-
form should take place, he should be glad to know how long
his Lordship would have this money to put into his pocket
and• a laugh.) Ile had not risen to make a long
:peed], he was merely a pistol-shot—(A laugh)—preceding
the great :run of the evening—(Laughter)—but he could
not conAude his remarks without observing that the Lords
were irresponsible, and that it depended upon the people to
make them otherwise. If the Lords wanted to humbug
them—if they wanted to form tradesmen Conservative as-
sociations, then the people were the best sort of persons in
the world.—<A laugh.) But the moment they demanded
their just rights, then they were turbulent and riotous, and
ought to be put down.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CostgaLt now presented himself, and n as received
with the most rapturous applause. He felt a confidence in
the presence of Englishmen in saying that he had fought
their battles, and that in return he asked their aid to assist
him in fighting the battles of his own" country.—(Hear,
hear.) His was the hand that drew up the petition that
called upon the British Parliament to grant to the Protes-
tant Dissenters of England the rights for which they were

seeking, and that which was agreed to at a meeting com-
posed of 10,000 persons, and was signed with 100,000
signatures.—(Cheers.) The people of Ireland declared by
this rct that any man interfering with another on account
of his religious principles, was guilty of a wicked blasphemy.
—( Hear, hear.) Were not the Lords opposed to the
English ? Had they not objected to an extension of the
Reform Bill ? Were not the people of this country taxed
without being represented? He was convinced that the
principle of representation would not be properly based un-
til universal suffrage was made the law of the land. The
mass. of the people were shut out from its representation.
Why should not the lodger, who obtained 4 qualification
by his labour, have as good a right to vote for a representa-
tive in Parliament as the 101. householder? Labour %vas
the gift of God, and vet man was deprived of the advs.n-
tages arising from this blessing of Divine Providence.
What chance was there that this state of things would be
altered so long as the Lords felt themselves so superior 'to
the people? lie also wanted the period during which Me.. -
hers should remain in Parliament to be thred years instead
of seven. But what chance was there that such could be
the,case so long as the Lords stood in the way of it ? The
vote by ballot, too—which he considered the only
honest method of voting—how could they expect the power
to vote by Ballot to become the law of the land, so long
as the Lords placed themselves in opposition to it ?
(Hear.) He contended that until the people had defeated
the birds, filte popular voice would Revcr be heard with
proper effect. He heard Radicals say that they wished to
see the House of Commons thoroughly reformed—so would
he ; but how was this possible, so long as the Lords stood
in the way of that reformation ?--.--(Hear, bear.) How was
Pariament to be shortened, and the Ballot to become the
law of the land, if ihe Lords would not suffer these im-
provements to take place?—(Hear,- hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman then called upon the people of England to back
up the Irish in their endeavour to take, as Wellington would
call it, the key of the position.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gent.
inn strain of great humour, and in his usual happy manner,
next adverted to the circumstance of a man being born a
legislator, and'to the efforts made by the Tories to cajole
the people of England in respect to the religious opinions
of the people of Ireland. Their object was evidently this
--while they were talking religion to put their hands into
the pockets of the people.—(Hear.) The people were
always triumphant whenever they willed it.—(Hear.)
They decapitated one King, but they were wise enough
subsequently to get rid of a foolish King by sending him
about his business. This brought about a revolution, the
benefits of which were usurped by the Lords.—(Hear.)
'The Hon. Gentleman, after alluding to the exertions of
the people of Ireland in the cause of England, concluded
a powerful address, by expressing .his delight at having
exerted himself in the cause of the people of England.
The meeting shortly afterwards separated.

CHURCII-RATES.--ST: SAVIOUR,

Last night a public meeting was holden of the parishion-
eners of St. Saviour,. Southwark, at the London-bridge
House Hotel. Hundreds were under the necessity of
going away, not being able to obtain admission. At seven
o'clock •the leading gentlemen in the business entered the
room, among whom were Alderman Humphery, M.P.,
Major Beauclerc, M.P., D. Wire, Esq., Under Sheriff,
&c. &c. Mr. Alderman Humphrey was unanimously called
to the chair.

Alderman HUMPHREY briefly explained the object of the
meeting. He was satisfied that the Bill now introduced
for the settlement of the question of Church-rates by his
Majesty's Ministers, would give satisfaction. to Dissenters
and to every good Churchman believing in the doctrines of
the Church.
Mr. NEWLANDS rose to move the first resolution :
" That this meeting is of opinion that each religious com-
munity ought to provide from its own resources the funds
necessary for the support of its edifices and for defraying
the charges of its worship." This resolution, he considered,
went to the root of the voluntary principle. He proceeded
to show the exclusive propensity of the ruling powers that
had existed, by citing that notwithstanding the Test Act
had been repealed, and the Catholic Emancipation Bill
passed, that there never had been a Roman Catholic en-
gaged in the Government of this country. He did not
want to destroy the establishment of the country ; he
wanted to build it up.—(Cheers.) All establishments, if
supported on the voluntary principle, would produce mere
able clergymen, and they would have better instructed con-
gTegations. Chapels, where the clergymen bad been
capable of their charge, all flourished. They had, aris-
ing from their own exertions, 4001., 6001., or 8001. a
year, while some of the poor Vicars of the Church had
no mo,re than 501. a year.—(Hear, hear.) He would have
all the parish churches let to the highest bidder, giving the
first offer to Episcopalians, and if they refused to take it,
let any other sect have it. He had no doubt that in this
way they would be enabled to let every one of their churches
at perhaps 6001. a year, and consequently there would be
6001. a year thus obtained to be distributed for the purpose
of instruction of the people, or to be otherwise usefully
applied. Or he would have them adopt the system of the
Scotch Church, where the members of the establishment
paid for their seats. But it was said that the Establish-
ment in England was as a provision for the poor. He would
ask them what provision was there for the poor in their
churches? They had standing seats. The seats were all in
the possession of certain houses, and if the holders did not
require them, they let them to others, who excluded the
poor from them. He objected to the principle, that the
whole country should be thus compelled to accept religion
as paupers. He denied that it was necessary to support
religion by law, or to claim the authority of a King or a
Legislature.
A. PILLAT, Esq., in rising to second the resolution, said
it was a question of such importance, as that, if anything
could induce him to leave the quietness of domestic life, and
forsake the habits of a man of business for a time, it was
the question of Church-rates. It was a question that would
induce any one to rally round the Chairman, and carry the
resolution he had to second. It was a question of punish-
ment. If he could not pay by purse, he must suffer in
person. He denied that it was just. It could not be called
law until it was so declared by a majority.—(Cheers.) He
was ready to prove that it was not just, either according to
all reference to history, or from Scripture. He went into
a detail of the history given of Churchlates by Hume and
other historians. It was a question that affected the civil
and religious liberties of the community. The Church of
England had been said to be a church for the poor, but the
fact was that Church-rates were made an act of oppression
to the poor, consequently it could not be so much for the poor.
He slfd that body who had done most in the shape of in-
struction to the poor were the Wesleyans. He said the
Bench of' Bishops had lost an opportunity they would never
have again of coming to a good feeling with the community.
The resolution was then put and ci.rried unanimously.
Mr. WIRE trusted the day was gone by when it would be
necessary to advocate the cause of civil and religious liberty.
He would, therefore, at once proceed to read the resolution,
" That this meeting regards, with the greatest satisfaction,
the measure for the abolition of Church-rates, brought for-
ward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; inasmuch as it
recognizes this great principle of religious liberty, and pro-
' vides for the extinction of an unjust and odious impost, as
injurious to the Dissenters as unnecessary to the Establish-
ment, since those expenses to which Church-rates have been
hitherto applied can be defrayed by the appropriation of
additional revenues derivable from Church lands restoring
Ecclesiastical property to uses for which it was originally
created, without injuriously affecting any existing interests."
Let them look at what the measure was. It was not a
measure to relieve Dissenters ; but it was a measure to re-
lieve Churclimen—(Cheers)—from that odious impost of
Church-rates. 'filen let it not go abroad to the world that
the measure was for the relief of the Dissenters—but that
it was a measure for the relief of the consciences of every
oae in the kingdom. The Bishops by this measure would
not have the power to let leases of Church lands to the dis-
advantage of the Church. Mr. W. here went into a par-
ticular detail of the manner in which Bishops let leases—
first for 21 years, at a large fine, with a smill rent ; and at
the end of 14 years, with another fine, the lease is ex-
tended again to the original term of 21 years; so that it
became a continual struggle between the Bishop and the
tenant which should have the largest sum, or which should
have the lands fbr the smallest'fine. The same system had
been pursued with the Crown lands, until the people had
become more wise, and then there was a Commission issued,
whiCh put on a fair rent, and treated the property as private
property would be treated, and their tenants had some as-
surance of the renewal of their leases. Now this was pre-
cisely the plan of the Government. He (Mr. Wire)
thought that if he were a Christian Bishop—he was not
one at presenC----(Laughter)—he would say, on hearing of
the plan, take away the lands, give me a decent revenue,
dd not leave me to enact the part of a usurer or a money-
changer; improve the church lands, and let me be a mes-
senger of peace. He would even say, take some of my
own revenue to bring about the consummation' of the
desirable object. He hoped the Bishops would come to
repentance and say so, and see the error of holding their si-
tuations by time strong arm of power.
Major BEAULLERK, M.P., seconded the resolution. He
considered it the duty of the people to support the Govern-
ment in a measure so well calculated to restore content-
ment. He was not for pulling down the Establishment,
nor did he believe any such wish impressed the country.
He was convinced that the cry of " destruction to the
Church," and the cry of " No Popery," were merely used
as-means of intimidation. It might be that some did en-
tertain a sense of danger ; but he intended to support his
Majesty's Government in this measure, and he only sup-
ported them when he thought them right.
The resolution was put from the Chair—oyly two hands
were held up against it.

EAST.

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, APRIL 28, 1837

RUSSELL BELL, Eq., rose to move the third resolution :
—" That the grateful thanks of this meeting arc due to his
Majesty's Ministers for their introiuction, and to the majo-
rity of the House of Commons, for their adoption of this
measure, so happily dev!sed for abating the dissensions, and
for healing the hitter animosities which have too frequently
attended'the exaction of Church-rates • and for promoting
that harmony among the different sections of the Christian
Church, essential to the national welfare."

Mr. GRAFTY seconded the resolution in an eloquent
speech.
The resolution was carded with four han:ls held up
against it.
Mr. R. FLETCHER rose to move the fourth resolution ;
" That this meeting pledges itself to the adoption of every
constitutional means for obtaining the abolition of Church-
rates. That petitions, founded
.on these -resolutions, be
now put in course of signature, and that Lord Brougham
he respectfully requested to present the petition to the
House of Lords; and Mr. Alderthan Hdmphcry to pre-
sent, antl•Mr. Harvey to support, the petition to the House
of Commons." •

Mr. VOUSLEY, in a few words, seconded the resolution,
and enforced the necessity of unanimity at the present junc-
ture to support the Ministry.
The resolution was carried unanimously.
Mr. Humettmor read letters of apology from Mr. Ward,
M.P., from B. Wood, Esq., and. from Dr. Lushington,
M.P., for not being able to attend ; and he also read one
from Mr. D. W. Harvey.
After the business had been formally concluded,
A GENTLEMAN begged to say, that he was opposed to
the principle of the meeting, because he last night had read
the 3d chapter of Malachi, and there he found that tithes
. were sanctioned.

Mr. Goons had read the 4th chapter of Malachi, and
there he found they were denounced as a robbery.
The meeting then adjourned. A petition, which had been
based on the resolutions, bad been agreed to, was immedi-
ately put into a course of signature, and as we understood,
was to be duly advertised this day.

CHURCH RATES-ST. GEORGE'S

Last evening a numerous meeting of the ratepayers of
St. George's East was held in the Vestry-room, in pursuance
of a Requisition numerously and respectably signed to the
Churchwardens, to convene a meeting, to consider of the
propriety of petitioning both Houses of Parliament in favour
of the Ministerial measure for the abolition of Church-rates.
Mr. KNIGHT, the senior Churchwarden; h the Chair.

Mr. Nloaals, one of the Guardians of the Poor, pro-
posed a resolution to the effect that the meeting bailed with
peculiar satisfaction the measure introduced by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers for the abolition of Church-rates, believing
that if curried into a law it would prove equally beneficial
to Churchmen and Dissenters ; to the former affording
ample means of supporting their religious edifices, and to
the latter the fullest and most entire relief. The resolu-
tion also, expressed' the regret of the meeting at the at-
tempts made by interested persons to deceive the public as
to the nature of the measure proposed by his Majesty's
Ministers. •

Mr. BADDELEY opposed the resolution, ani proposed
as an amendment, that it be considered of that day six
months.--(Laughter.)
No person seconding the amendment, the original mo-
tion was put and carried with only two dissentients. A
Committee was then appointed to draw up petitions to both
Houses of Parliament in favour of the Ministerial plan, and
the meeting broke, up.