The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 9, 1861

fact. Both Mr. Odo Russell and the French General were
speaking of things of which they were not eyewitnesses.
Mr. Odo Russell had not seen the brigands. The French
General could not deny from his own knowlege that they
had passed. Each spoke from authority. Mr. Odo Russell
said he would not press his information against that of the
French General, but my hon. friend the Under-Secretary
stated that in which I concur—namely, his belief that the
information given to Mr. Odo Russell was more correct
than that which had been given to the French General.
(Hear.) 'I here was another point. The hon. baronet who
criticised the pamphlet of my right hon. friend the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer said that Poerio was an imaginary
person, whom my right hon. friend had dressed up with
drarc.at'c effect and surrounded with circumstances which
never took place. I have another Poerio—a real Poerio,
who was in England, and from whose lips 1 heard a com-
plete and accurate confirmation of everything stated by niy
right hon. friend. (Cheers.) Therefore I quote my living
Poerio against the aerial Poerio who the hon. baronet some-
how or other imagined was a creature of my right hon.
friend's mind. (Cheers.) Ido not complain of the debate
which has taken place. (Hear.) lam not one of those who
think that it is beyond the functions of this house to discuss
any subjects, any matters, any affairs in any part of the
world which members may think deserving of attention and
discussion in this house. (Hear, hear.) The members of
this house may say--
Homo sum; huma►i nihil a me alientrm puto."
I think we may be satisfied to discuss every matter which
bears a general interest in the affairs of Europe and theworld,
and that discussion is very useful. (Hear, hear.) Although
we may hear many things, as we have heard to-night, to
tally wrong in argument, mistaken in point of feeling, and
leading to conclusions entirely inconsistent with fact, yet,
nevertheless, those statements are met by counter state-
ments at the time, as they have been this evening, and the
conflict of opinions leads at last to the establishment of
truth. When debates go forth to the world, and are read
with attention—as I trust everything which has passed this
evening will be read with attention by all who take an
interest in the subject—that conflict of statements and
opinions elicits truth and tends to good in its ultimate
result. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I am not objecting to any-
thing which has passel in the course of this debate, nor do I
object to the setting up the affairs of Italy for a free, fair,
and full discussion. (Cheers,) It has been a most interest-
ing debate. We have heard most admirable speeches. I
must compliment the noble lord on a most eloquent and
admirable speech—(hear, hear)--a speech which does great
credit to his good feelings and his energy in explaining those
dark recesses of which he gave us an account. But I must
say that the statements which he made, so far from incul.
pating the present Government of Italy, showed that, in
spite of all their exertions, the abuses of the former Govern-
ment still remain unextinguished—(oh, and cheers)—be-
cause he tells us of nothing which we do not know to have
actually existed under the reigns of the Neapolitan Sove-
reigns ; and therefore the only result of that statement
which he made is that the present Government has not
sccceded in entirely getting rid of all the abuses which
existed. (Derisive cheers) We had another able speech.
although it brought down upon the person who made it the
attacks of some on the other side of the house We had an
able speech from my hon. friend the Under Secretary of
State, and I think those who heard that speech and saw
the way in which he refuted point by point all the state-
ments which went before him—(oh, oh)—will agree with
me that it will go far to established that truthful result which
I contend is the effect of debates which take place in Parlia
ment. (Hear.) Then we heard a most admirable speech
from a member newly come within these walls—a speech
delivered with great eloquence, with great power of language,
and with an earnestness which proved the deep conviction
of the speaker by whom it was delivered. We must give
him great credit also for the energy with which he has di-
rected his mind to the subject. I trust that that which is
an admirable beginning will be followed by still better re-
sults, and that he will frequently give the house the benefit
of his remarks. (Cheers.) But the real fact of the case is
this—that we do not deny, and we cannot deny that on the
Neapolitan territory there does exist a great number of
abuses which are, in short, relics of that system which was
overthrown when Garibaldi passing from Sicily came to
Naples, and presented, as he did, the kingdom of Naples to
Victor Emmanuel. Everybody must agree that in every
other part of Italy there is nothing of which complaint
can be made. (Oh, oh.) Lombardy is flourishing;
Tuscany is in good condition. No one says any evil of
Modena. Parma we never hear of; the Romagna, added
from the States of the Church, is cenfessedly in a most
flourishing and happy condition. It is only in the kingdom
of Naples and Sicily that these complaints exist. (Cheers.)
Let any one recollect how difficult it is for a Government to
mould and weld together six additions to an existing State
—and such is the task which the Italian Government has
had to perform. To Piedmont have been added Lombardy,
Tuscany, Modena, Parma, the Romagna, and Naples. All
these bad different organisations, different laws, different
tariffs, different systems, and all these had to be welded into
one harmonious whole. I think any one who knows any-
thing of the difficulties of government can hardly expect
that in two years the task will be completely and satisfac-
torily accomplished. In those parts with regard to which no
external influences are at work it has been accomplished i❑
a wonderful degree (cheers)---because in five of those States
which I have enumerated things go on well, and no com-
plaints whatever exist. (Cheers.) Naples is the exception,
and why 7 Because, next to Naples we have Rome. Be-
cause in Rome there is a French garrison. Because that
French garrison protects the ex Court of Naples. (Loud
cheers.) And, because, under the shelter of that foreign
army there exists a committee of, I believe, no less than 200
people, whose constant employment it is to organise bands
of murderers—(oh I and loud cheers)--of the scum and
dregs of every nation, and to send them forth into the Nea-
politan territory to commit every sort of atrocity. (Cheers )
And then we are told that is civil war I Good God I what
an idea gentlemen must have of civil war when they dignify
acts of the most atroci ruffianism—(loud cheers)—by a
name which may imply the loftiest sentiments and the
highest possible social and political aspirations. (Cheers.)
I say they do commit acts of the greatest ruffianism (cheers)
—because they burn houses and murder people, and they
destroy and lay waste. They burn people as well as houses.
They burn their captives. (Hear, bear.) We have know-
ledge of this, and therefore I say they do commit atrocities
which ought to make those who send them forth
to commit them blush to the deepest dye, (Cheers.) Then,
there are gentlemen in this house who are proud of their re-
ligious faith, who cling, as they may naturally and pro-
perly do, to that faith, who call themselves pre-eminently
Catholic, while they set their face against the liberties of
Italy, and seek to rivet her fetters, forgetting that the Ita-
lians are 20,000,000 of Catholics, as good as themselves, and
who ought to be better, inasmuch as they are nearer the
source. (A laugh.) I confess lamat a loss to understand
why this should be the case—(hear, hear)—but be that as
it may, I still contend that if those disorders which have
been mentioned continue to prevail their continuance is due
to those who from Rome keep up this agitation. (Hear.)
After all, it may, be, perhaps, that this state of things is
not otherwise than in the usual course of affairs. Great
changes of dynasty cannot well be effected without a long
series of disorders. No change of dynasty has ever taken
place in any country with the immediate and entire acqui-
escence of the people of that country. Indeed, I would say
that the worse a Government is, the more corrupt it ie, the
mere likely it is to leave behind it when overthrown per-
sons who lived by that corruption and who regret to find
that their means of livelihood had departed. Such is the
case in the Neapolitan territory, and it is not to be supposed
that by a stroke of the wand, or by the apparition of half a
dozen followers of Garibaldi in red shirts in a railway car-
riage, all traces of the former monarchy are at once to be
swept away, and that there should not remain behind some
persons who, from motives of interest or from attachment to
the old dynasty, should desire to see it restored. It is a great
mistake to imagine that it is the majority of the Neapolitan
population, and not the smallest possible minority, by whom
such sentiments are entertained. Great difficulty has, no
doubt, been experienced in introducing into Naples that
pure system of government and jurisprudence which one
would wish to see established there, and which it has

been the earnest desire of the Government of Turin to

carry into operation. It must, however, be borne in
mind that you cannot govern without instruments, and
that, as my hon. friend the Under-Secretary of State re-
marked, those instruments are wanting in a country which
has been corrupted to the core by a long system of arbitrary
and tyrannical rule. The hon. baronet who spoke last
seemed to ridicule the idea that ajury could not be procured
in Naples; but the fact is that, owing to the system of
terrorism which has for a long time been established, per-
sons are afraid to come forward and discharge the duties
of jurymen, and that is the reason why the prisoners are not
brought tD trial with the despatch which is desirable. It is a
great pity that such should be the case, because the detention
of so large a number of persons in gaol for so long a time un-
tried and without being proved guilty of the crimes laid to
their charge is no doubt a great evil. This, however, is no
novelty. It is simply the continuation of a state of things
which previously existed. There was, I may add, another
evil which existed before, but which no longer prevails.
Under the old regime persens who had been tried and ac-
quitted, and sent back into society, were still held under a
species of superintendence, and were not allowed to be mas-
ters of their own actions. As many as 70,000 persons were
thus placed under the surveillance of the police, and
were not allowed to leave their homes, engage in any pro •
fession, or do anything, in short, which a free man would
wish to do, because they feared they might be re- committed
to prison, notwithstanding their previous acquittal. (Hear.)

If now the prisons in Naples are not in such a state as one

could wish to see them, this is so, I contend, in spite of the
exertions of the Italian Government to place them in a
better condition. I may further observe that the detailed
statement of the noble lord opposite (Lord 11. Lennox) has
been, in many respects, contradicted in the course of the
discussion by those who have had opportunities of seeing
the prison into which he obtained admission. The very
fact, indeed, that the Neopolitan prisons are thrown open
to anybody,
be he Englishman or any other stranger,
and that there is no concealment as to their condition,
clearly shows that the Italian Government does not at
all events object to be told of its faults, thus affording an
indication that it is disposed to remedy them. The hon.
member for Dungarvan, I may add, has to-night repeated
his prophecy that an united Italy cannot last, that it will all

fall to pieces, and that their ancient dynasties will be esta-
blished once more in all the separate States of the Italian
peninsula. But I hope he may turn out to be a false pro-
phet, because the unity of Italy is likely, in my opinicn, to
be the foundation of her prosperity. That unity has up to
the present moment been attended with the most beneficial
results. It will, I trust, continue, and if arrangements
could be made so to extend it as to embrrce the whole of the
Italian provinces, I feel quite satisfied that no country in
Europe, no population in the world, could attain to a higher
pitch of happiness and prosperity than an United Italy, so
constituted, would achieve. For her Majesty's Government,
I will only say that we do not at all regret the part we hove
taken in this question. We have been accused of intermed-
dling, but we have done so only in the shape of moral in-
fluence and the expression of opinion. I am glad to think that
the course we have taken has c 'lied forth the gratitude of
the people of Italy, and that it has done so I know to be
the fact. The people from one end of the country to the
other are deeply grateful to the English nation for
the kind and warm interest it has taken in those
transactions which have tended so much to their happiness,
and no doubt any influence which we may be able indivi-
dually to bring to bear with a view to putting an end to those
evils which still survive their unity it will be the duty of the
Government to exert. It is not a fitting or becoming thing
for cne Government to interfere in the internal administra-
i.‘n of another State ; but thereare, at the same time, cases
in which friendly advice might be given, and I feel assured
the discussion this evening will be attended with good results
in connexion with those points which have been the subject
of comment. The hon. gentleman who spoke last but one
alluded to the case of Mr. Bishop as one in which, in his
opinion, a great amount of tyranny was exercised. Now,
Mr. Bishop was on his trial, convicted of having been a car-
rier of treasonable correspondence between Rome and
Naples—au offence of deep dye. He was sentenced in
accordance with the law, but the sentence in its
execution, though not altogether revoked, was greatly
modified at the intercession of her Majesty's Government.
So far from the case of Mr. Bishop then being an example
of over-severity on the part of the Italian Government, it
ought, I think, rather to be looked upon as an instance in
which the Government has yielded to the friendly recom-
mendations of her Majesty's Ministers, and remitted a large
portion of the penalty inflicted by a court of justice on
an individual who had beyond doubt greatly offended
against the laws of the country in which he chose to
reside. I have simply to add, in conclusion, that I feel
assured the Italian Government will pursue that course
which, notwii hstanding the allegations made to the con-
trary, I maintain it is pursuing—naniely, the establishment
of order with every indulgence consistent with the attain-
ment of its object. I trust that it will exercise no undue
severity, but that with the means placed at its disposal it
will enforce that authority which I contend has its founda-
tion in the free will of the Italian people; which is in ac-
cordance with the national desire, and which being so will,
I am confident, be more lasting than the hon. member for
Duogarvan seems to imagine, (Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—I entirely concur with the noble lord
in not regretting that this discussion has taken place. We
are, I think, indebted to the hon. gentleman who brought
forward the subject for the most interesting and animated
debate of the Session. I may add that it is with some pride
I advert to the circumstance that it was from these benches
three speeches were delivered to-night, to which everybody
who beard them must have listened with the utmost plea-
sure and satisfaction. (Hear, hear.) This question of Italy
is one which requires in considering it that we should look
a little back. It is about five or six years ago, or more, that
the condition of Italy, owing to its critical state, began to
attract the deep attention of the House of Commons.
Various opinions were then expressed by hon. members on
both sides of the house as to the position of that country,
her future fate, and her possible fortunes. There were then
two great opinions which swayed very much the conduct of
public men. The first was the great doubt that prevailed
whether the unity of Italy was possible—whether you could
mould together seven or eight different nationalities, coun-
tries with different laws, with almost different languages,
and under the influence of different policies. Secondly,
there was a consciousness that in any contest in Italy it was
a question as to the supremacy either of Austria or France.
However the people of England might disapprove what was
described by a classical writer as the iron rule of Austria, still
we naturally felt jealous of changes and revolutions in Italy
which might tend to the aggrandisement of our powerful
neighbour and lead to the preponderance of her influence in
an alarming degree. With these considerations before us it
was not surprising that Parliament and public men should
have spoken with much diffidence and some distrust of the
commencement of those great changes which we have lived to
see and the consequences of which, to a certain degree, we
have realised. What seems to us now very easy and plain
to comprehend were really some half a dozen years ago poli-
tical mysteries which the most sagacious could not pene-
trate and which the boldest could not contemp late without
mistrust. (Hear.) What was feared actually took place.
Italy was relieved from the power of Austria, but in exact
proportion as the power of Austria was diminished the in-
fluence of France was substituted and maintained. (Hear.)
Fortunately for Italy there arose to guide her destinies a
statesman of eminent ability. It has been said that Cavour
was a man not very scrupulous as to his means. This is a
question which I leave with the historian to decide. He
may have been unscrupulous in his means, but this all
must adroit that he was clear in his vision and practical
in his policy. (Hear, hear.) He knew what:he wanted,
and what he wanted he accomplished. He knew it was
possible in the circumstances with which he had to deal,
and with the means at his command, to establish a king-
dom of Italy of considerable power and resources ; and,
like a wise statesman and true patriot he looked perhaps to
a future which would increase the power and multiply the
resources of that kingdom. But as far as her Majesty's
Government are concerned, they were originally as dis-
trustful as others of the future of Italy, and their policy
was vacillating and timid. I hardly blame them, because
they had to act under dark and difficult circumstances, but
I say that their policy at the beginning and for some time
was not that policy which has been boldly described to
night. (Hear.) On the whole I believe ber Majesty's Go-
vernment, ins. ead of assisting the patriotic views of Italian
statesmen, instead of consolidating the strength and de-
veloping the resources of a practical and powerful king-
dom of Italy, have, either for the sake of objects
upon which I do not care to dwell, or from a weak-
ness of political vision, adopted a policy which has tended
to weaken Italy and to distract Europe. (Cheers and mur-
murs.) This is not a question which:can be settled by in-
articulate means. (A laugh.) I say the policy of the Eng-
lish Government has laid the foundation of future embar-
rassment for the world (Hear, hear.) What were the
difficulties with which Italy had to contend when, unfor-
tunately for her interests, Cavour suddenly quitted the stage
and she was left without a master mind to guide her for.
tunes and to mould her destinies ? There were two great
influences acting on Italy, which were opposed to that ideal
unity which had been the dream of her greatest statesmen
for generations, and which, having adopted it from the
Popular opinion of the day, they suddenly became the
patrons. Those two great influences were the traditional
policy of France, which, under every form of government
—kingdom, republic. or empire—for reasons which France
deemed wise, was hostile to the Court of Rome, which was
hostile to a scheme which might not only deprive it of its
political estates—a very secondary consideration—but pro-
duce a revolution in Re position which might bring about
consequences throughout the world most adverse to Catholic
interests. Hence her Majesty's Government, by announc

ing themselves as the patrons of Italian unity; placed them

selves in collision with France and Rome. (Hear.) An hon.
gentleman cries " Hear, hear," and if he is prepared to sup-
; port a Ministry which dared to struggle with the French
Empire and the Roman Court for the unity of Italy, I might
doubt the prudence of such a policy, but at least it would
be intelligible to me. If England had chosen, with
the sanction of her Parliament and the unanimous
approbation of the nation, to throw all her influence
into the scale, and to say, what no one doubts, that
Italian unity would add to the strength and splendour of
Europe and tend to the great advantage of this country,
and to devote all her arms and energies to the accomplish-
ment of that object, she would have pursued a policy which
one can understand. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has
taken great credit for his patronage of the independence,
freedom, and, above all, unity of Italy. Brave words we
have heard in this house from the noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
There have been speeches and there have been despatches.

All that could tend to irritate, and alarm the mighty influ-
ences that were opposed to Italian unity was, as far words
went, called into operation. I am not aware, however, that
the noble lord has done more than speak, and write, and

indicate a policy—(hear,
hear), but he has not ventured to
grapple with the great influences arrayed against the policy

he patronized. The consequence is the state of things
which we now witness—a state of affairs which Cavour
would have looked upon, had he lived, with sadness and

dismay, which he would have striven to avert, and the fore-

sight of which would probably have led him to say to Eng-
land, "Be our active and practical ally, or cease to insult
those with whose overpowering resources we must ultimately
=tend." (Hear) Since the death of Cavour the programme,
to use a fashionable word, of the national party in Italy has
been "Movement, development, uni y, Rome,"—immense
words—verba sesquipedalta—used by men of very little
minds and very slight resources. What have they leant

upon ? They have leant upon the support of England. In
the English Parliament some gentleman, if not with the
absolute co-operation of, at least with social encouragement
from the noble lord, constantly brought forward the sub-
ject of the state of Italy. It was let out like a bag-fox, and
followed with a full halloo. Every year we had the noble
lord presented to us as the regenerator of Italy, the saviour
of the country, and the performance ended with invectives
directed against the Pope, and a promise, announced amid
the cheers of the honourable member for Brighton and his
friends (a laugh), that Rome should be the capital of a
united Italy before the end of the session. (Laughter
and cheers.) It was the favourite question of the Govern-
ment. Indeed, when the Reform Bill was withdrawn, the
capture of Rome was the great measure of the Session.
(Hear.) And now in what has all this ended ? Cavour
withdraws from the scene—no commanding mind in Italy,
France naturally jealous of our uncertain and irritating
policy, Rome alarmed, Rome and France leagued against the
unity of Italy; the noble lord conducting a policy of words,
Epeeches, “Ild despatches;
the Italian Government, without

a leader, still hanging on the accents of English Ministers,
perpetually adopting a line which nothing could justify ex-
cept commanding genius and commanding legions, holding
out to the people the immediate expectation of Rome being
made their capital by the overpowering interference of their
English ally, and representing results which will not occur,
if ever, for half a century as the consequences of the pass-
ing hour. And what has become of the state of Italy?
A state of dismemberment, of confusion, vexation, embar-
rassment, disgrace, and humiliation. (Cheers.) The hon.
member for Peterborough has doubted whether the condi-
tion of Italy is a legitimate subject for our debate. He
shrinks from irritating the Vatican, and would rather con-
cen Irate all his efforts against Maynooth. (Laughter.) I
want to know on what ground we are to discuss the state of
Poland, if we are not permitted to discuss the state
of Calabria and the Two Sicilies. (Hear.) True, in one
country the insurgents are called brigands, and in the other
patriots, but, with that exception, I have not learned from
this discussion that there is any marked discrimination
between them. (Oh, oh ! and cheers.) But, says the noble
lord, it is really only in Naples that these disturbances
occur, and Naples after all is merely a province. Naples
merely a province I What becomes, then, of your united
Italy ? (Cheers.) Is it only in Naples that this dissatis-
fat tion appears ? It is expressed in every other of the six
States absorbed. There is universal discontentment and
complaint. But what have we heard to-night ? A de-
scription of the state of things has been given, which has
not been contradicted, end of which every gentleman with
information on these subjects was previously aware, though
he had not heard it related in detail with the picturesque
animation which accompanied the statement of the noble
lord the member for Chichester. When you talk of the
liberty of the press, is it a fact or not that it is not enjoyed
in any part of Italy P Is it true that, whether in Milan, or
whether in Genoa, or even in:Turin, and certainly not in
Florence, the liberty of the press does not exist ? (Hear,
hear.) Is it a fact or not that the liberty of the person is
much in the same state as the liberty of the press ? (Hear,
hear.) The reason given by the Under-Secretary for Foreign
Affairs why persons are kept in prison without trial is cer•
tainly one of the most remarkable I ever heard, While the
country is improving its jurisprudence one of the regulations
is that the prisoners, until the improvements might be car-
ried into effect, should be locked up. (Laughter.) The rea-
son given by the Under-Secretary, as far as I can collect it,
for not bringing persons to trial is that the jurymen are not
considered capable of performing the duties of their high
office. But what if a more natural reason be the true one,
and that jurymen are not found capable of carrying into ef-
fect the intentions of the Government ? (Cheers.) I put it
to any philosopher who decides on human conduct upon
abstract principles, and not with a knowledge of the circum-
stances, which he would think the most natural solution of
the monstrous state of affairs des _ribed by the Under-Sec-
retary—mine, or that which has the official warrant; and I
ask him to decide which is the most probable, the most
natural, and, certainly, which is the most true reason.
(Hear, hear.) This is the condition of Italy at the present
moment; it was the condition of Italy last year, and it is one
highly unsatisfactory, I believe, to the Italians as well as to
England. (Hear, hear.) They have been kept in a state
of constant excitement and irritation from expectations held
out by our Government through a course of policy being in-
dicated by England, which England was never prepared to
act upon, and which England was not justified in holding
out without being prepared to act on it. (Hear, hear.)
Only last year the noble lord informed the country and
Europe that immediately they might expect some great
change in Italy, and that a solution of all the difficulties of
Italian patties was about to be accomplished. But, mind
you, we have had a very different tone to-night. We have
not heard from the noble lord any expressions on that sub-
ject. Much as he is obliged to keep up some appearance of
unity in the policy of the Government, yet there have been
no expectations held out to-night of Rome being immedi-
ately, or even eventual y, the capital of Italy. There have
been no menaces to France, no promises to Italy—menaces
and promises generally equally fallacious ; but, on the con-
trary, the noble lord has spoken with much moderation on
the subject, and the noble lord appears to have adopted the
tone of the sensible observations made by my hon. friend
the member for Canterbury in his admirable speech, great in
performance, and greater still in promise, from which it may
be hoped that the hon. member will contribute much to the
interest of our future debates. (Hear.) My hon. friend, fresh
from Italy, and well informed, has taken, as we all have a
right to do, his own interpretation and view of public affairs.
He stated that there is now a chance for Italy, that there
have been some progress and some improvements, and that,
though the difficulties have been immense, there is more
common sense among the Italians than the world gives
them credit for, and that they have dismissed from their
mind the wild notion of taking possession of Rome
as their capital. That was what was stated by my
hon. friend as his impression of what is the state of public
opinion in Italy : and the consequence is that, as the views
of the Italian Governuent are now more practical, the pro-
spects of the country are brighter, and there is hope that
the people st, ill be content now in consolidating their
strength and developing their resources, and not indulge in
those wild dreams of impracticable politics which, for some
reason or other, were encouraged by the Minister of Eng-
land. (Hear.) That was the gist of the speech of my hon.
friend, and I entirely agree with him as to the present con-
dition of Italy. I believe with him that the state of Italy
is an exceptional state. You cannot expect in a nation
where a great revolution and great changes have taken place
that logical order and propriety in the Administration of the
laws and the practice of the constitution which you meet
with in such a country as England. That is the result of
time and experience—experience showing the blessings of
order and a settled constitution, and time moderating the
human passions and toning down the dispositions of men
to a practical enjoyment of life. I agree with my hon. friend
in the opinion he brings from Italy that the Italian Go
vernment has given up those extreme views he adverted to,
and that there is now a more practical consideration of
affairs, which will, I hope, lead to the increased prosperity
of Italy in bringing about that state of things which was
contemplated by the greatest of her statesmen, and which
in time may be developed in greater proportion. But if
this is to be brought about it can only be brought about by
Italy pursuing that policy with temper and perseverance.
Italy must learn to depend on herself She must not depend
either on the expectations held out by English Ministers,
which cannot be realised, or on the hopes held out by French
Governments, which may lead her into a position most em-
barrassing. The Ministers of Italy occupy at this moment
particularly a difficult position, They must extricate them-
selves from a false condition of affairs, made up of exagge-
rations conceived in the epoch of a revolution, and which
rival Governments have played with in incessant manoeuvre
But they cannot do this unless they let Europe know that
they are pursuing a policy of peace and conciliation, not of
war, invasion, and aggression. (Hear, hear.) There is no
country in ►he world for which peace is more necessary, and
of which peace should be so decidedly the policy, as Italy at
the present moment. Last year, when we had some inci-
dental discussion upon the subject of Italy, with reference
to our own public expenditure, I ventured to say that the
policy pursued by our Government with regard to Italy and
the centre of Europe was one of the causes of that expendi-
ture, I said then that the policy which we pursued with re-
gard to Rome was of an irritating character, which must
end in disappointment and failure, and which was not war-
ranted by sound principles—(hear)—and that:if there were
a fair and rational understanding between England and
France in regard to Italy, that understanding might, and
could, and ought to have a considerable effect on the expen-
diture of the country. Well, 12 months have elapsed, and
the state of affairs which I indicated as desirable has really
oceurred, There has been a change in the public opinion
of Italy as to the policy which it ought to pursue. Rome is
no longer held forth as the necessary and inevitable capital
of Italy, without the possession of which there could be no
development of resources, no expansion of freedom, and
without which industry could not receive the fruits of its
exertions. On the other hand, between England and France,
as far as we can judge, there is this understanding on the
subject of Italy—it is apparently argued that Italy shall no
longer be the scene of rival policies—that she shall be lei

alone to the calm and tranquil development of her resources,
and the consolation of her political power. I think the
prospects of It in these respects far more favourable than
last year. (Hear, hear.) All who have spoken to-night
have described the state of Italy as more or less better
than it was said to be last year. I agree with the noble
lord that it may be productive of good that the details
which have been given to-night should be known to Italy
and to Europe. I think that knowledge may tend to a
considerable amelioration both of a public and a private
nature. But 'hat is still mere important is that England
should be thoroughly disabused as to the popular opinion
with respect to the condition of that country. (Hear hear.)
Italy is not at this moment a land flowing with milk and
honey. (Hear, hear.) Italy is a land much exhausted by
great struggles ; she has gone through the trial, I am bound
to say in a manner which, on the whole, must elevate her in
the consideration of nations. (Hear, hear.) If she has
not realized what I would call the visions of her friends,
she has far surpassed the expectations those who were not
friendly to her may have indulged in. (Hear, hear.) She
has shown energies which the world did not give her credit
for, and which, if well husbanded, and if they meet a fair
fortune, may tend to the ultimately triumph of her ambition,
provided it be one such as circumstances justify and which
the nature of things will permit. (Hear hear.) This is
not an unfavourable prospect after all the fears which have
been engendered during the last two or three years, The
general condition of affairs is much ameliorated. But
that amelioration can only be secuxed by adopting the
causes which have led to it—namely, relinquishing that
policy of the English Government, which was a policy of
words, not of deeds, by promoting the natural consolidation
of her Government and the natural development of her re-
sources, and by obtaining that liberty in practice which at
present she possssses only in theory. (Loud cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—So many
appeals, Mr. Speaker, have been made to me in the course
of this debate that I can scarcely reconcile it to my mind,
if I may trust to the patient attention of the house, to sit
still without saying one word in answer to those appeals,
and withcut noticing the speech which has just been deli-
vered. My hon, friend the member for Taunton (Mr. C.
Bentinek) and try noble friend the member for Chichester
(Lord H. Lsnnox) have both delivered speeches of great
ability, and they.appear to think it most inconsistent on my

part not to join them in the course which they have pur-
sued, to which they think I am bound by the part which I
took some 12 years ago. I take it to b a vary great oomph ••
went that I should receive from the noble lord and the
hon. gentleman so distinguished an expression of opinion on
their parts as that they are now pursuing the course, though
with reference to different persons, yet on the same prin-
ciples, which at that comparatively remoto period I thought
it my duty to pursue. But I am bound to say there is a very
material difference between us, and especially between the
noble lord and myself. (Hear) The noble lord has visited
Italy. He went there enthusiastically attached to Italian
freedom—nay, n'ore, he was a devoted adherent of the Go-
vernment of Victor Emmanuel— (hear, hoar, from Lord H.
Lennox)---but having, during his visit, observed things
which appeared to him painful and disgraceful, al:hough he
was aided in every respect by the officers of the Govern-
ment, although he received from General La Matmora an
order which laid open to him the inmost recesses of the
prisons, although he states that every prison was under the
control of a man of humanity and intelligence, and although
ne was enthusiastic .11y attached to Italy and to the Italian
Government as its organ, yet it never occurred to my noble
friend that it might be just to give that Government the
opportunity of profiting by the researches he had made,
but my noble friend thought it better to conceal the know-
ledge which he had acquired until he could import it into
his own country, and there could deliver it from one of the
seats of the House of Commons amid the cheers of an ad-
miring audience. (Cheers.)
Lord H. LENNOX (who rose amidst loud cries of
"Order" from the Government benches) said—My expe-
riences of the first prison I went to, which resulted in the
protest to which I have alluded, were written and signed by
me on the express understanding that the paper should be
forwarded to the Government of Turin for their informa-
tion. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That
was the prison which I think received at least a qualified
approval from my noble friend. (Hear, hear.) But he
went to a variety of prisons and amassed a multitude of
facts, and his enthusiastic attachment to Italian liberty and
to the Government, its organ, did not prevent him coming
to the House of Commons and making it and this country
the first confidential recipient of what he had seen.
(Cheers.) And my noble friend thinks he is walking in nay
steps. Nothing could be more different. I did not go to
Italy as the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Government.
I never professed such a thing. (Hear, hear.) But although
I was not the devoted friend of the Neapolitan Govern-
nent, what I saw and heard I did not give to the public
at home until everything was brought to the notice of the
Neapolitan Government. the course which I took was
this—l placed in the hands of Lord Aberdeen, that
admirable man who upon one subject had prejudices, pre-
judices in favour of the Italian Governments, every state-
ment I had to a ake, and I entreated him, to which he
cheerfully consented, to bring the whole of these statements
under the view of the Government of Naples before they
were made known either to the House of Commons or the
public. Well, Sir, it was the deliberate resolution of the
Neapolitan Government to take no steps for the removal of
the evils which I witnessed that drove me to the steps which
I afterwards took. (Cheers,) After what my noble friend
has said, it is impossible for a moment to question that he
is a most enthusiastic friend of Italian freedom and of the
Government wnich has been supposed to be the organ of the
people, having been freely chosen by its suffrages. (Hear.)
13,,t I mu t say if. instead of having those lofty sentiments
in favour of Italian freedom, of which he has given us so
many assurances, my noble friend had been tainted with
ideas the most opposite, if it had been his object to do every-
thing in his power to discredit all those who are connected
with the cause of Italian nationality, I doubt whether he
could have taken a better considered course than the one he
has pursued, (Cheers.) Sir, I protest against the course
which the noble lord has pursued. It was his duty as an im-
partial Englishman to make these inquiries, but, had it but
been in common acknowledgment of the assistance he re•
ceived from the Italian Government in prosecuting these
investigations, it was also his duty frankly and fearlessly
to have laid before them the result of his inquiries, reserv-
ing his right, if necessary, to appeal to this tribunal. (No,
no, and hear, hear.) But that does not, I admit, absolve us
from our duty of paying due attention to the statements
which the noble lord has made. With respect to those state-
ments and others it will be enough if I refer to what has
fallen from my noble friend at the head of the Government.
The habits of bad government—(" Hear, hear," from Sir G.
Bowyer.) Will the hon. gentleman be good enough to re-
strain his enthusiasm, which is always at fever heat on this
subject—(cheers and laughter)—•and leave me to pursue my
path undisturbed ? (Hear.) Sir, the habits of bad govern-
ment do not depend on the perverted will of a single
individual, although that individual may be a king—
nor upon the perverted will of a Cabinet or a Court. They
descend with 10,000 fibres through all the ramifications of
society, and when the Italian Government succeeded to the
possession of power in the Southern provinces of that coun-
try they did not succeed to a paradise which they have since
defiled, but to something like the very reverse of a paradise,
and which it will take a protracted time and gigantic la-
bour to cleanse. (Cheers.) What, for example, is to be done
with the hundreds, the thousands, the tens of thousands
who in that unhappy country formerly gained an infamous
livelihood as gaolers and spies ? Is it to be supposed that
a new Government can make a clean sweep of all the func-
tionaries whom they find in office ? Only gradual reforms
can be carried out in the ranks of the official corps in such
a country. That reform must begin at the head, and go
down to the smaller officials. Has that reform begun ? The
noble lord says that in every case at the head of the prisons
he found men of humanity and intelligence. (" Hear,
hear," from Lord H. Lennox.) Does he suppose that I was
permitted to enter every prison and obtain encouragement
and assistance from the head ? (Sir G, Bowyer—" Yes.")
Does he suppose that I was welcomed as a co-operator and
a friend ? No, on the contrary. The statement of my noble
friend the member for Chichester proves that there is much
that is lamentable and much that is disgraceful to the im•
mediate agents in the system that prevails in the south o;

Italy. But it also provesthat even there reform and improve-
ment have begun. (Hear.) The principal functionaries
have been removed and replaced by better men. The light
of day has been let into the inmost recesses of the darkest
caverns. There is not an abuse or a horror that is not
brought freely forward. And the whole of the statements of
the hon. member for Taunton were not the result of researches
wade by him, but were a reference to discussions in the
open air and in open Parliament by the representatives of
the Italian people. (Cheers.) Therefore, I say that from
the very worst and darkest features of Southern Italy—and
some of them, I admit, are very bal and dark—there is
ample reward for the past and abundant encourage-
ment for the future. (Cheers.) After the speech of my noble
friend the member for Chichester came that of the hon. gen-
tleman the member for Canterbury. I was pleased to hear
the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down say that
he had listened to that speech with the utmost pleasure and
satisfaction. lam only very sorry to remember that the
pleasure with which the right hon. gentleman listened to
that speech, vivid and intense as it was, was not more
largely shared by hon. gentlemen on that side. (A laugh.)
My hon. and learned friend the member for Wallingford
had, I believe, left his place.—[Mr. MALINS—" No."] 'Was
he there ? Then, lam sorry he did not give more audible
expression to his satisfaction. Another hon. friend of mine
sitting on that side of the house has expressed the appro-
bation and sympathy with which he listened to that speech.
But I am bound to say—and I think it better to say such
things in this house, instead of going to Slough or else-
where and there delivering in animated language a descrip-
tion of the effect which particular speeches produce in this
house—that I never perceived a more marked change come
over the spirit of a portion of the House of Commons than
that which came over the spirit of those who occupy the
benches opposite, and especially the front bench, between
the time of the speech of the noble lord to which hon. mem-
bers opposite listened with such perfect rapture and the
time when they listened with unbroken silence and almost
despondency to the remarkable reasoning of the hon. mem-
ber for Canterbury. (Cheers.) So far as my ears can bear
witness to the reception of a speech, the courage of which
was not less remarkable, considering the hon. member's short

experience, than its ability—the silence on that side during
the whole of its clear, manly, and powerful reasoning on be-
half of the Italian Government was only relieved by the
cheers which the hon. member received from those who
support and approve the Italian policy of the Government.
(Cheers and counter cheers.) However, as regards the state
of Southernltaly, in the first place we have got publicity and
in the second place we have got from the agents of the Go-

vernment co-operation in the work of improvement. Both
these facts were established by the speech of the noble lord.
(Hear, hear.) I agree with him that this is not all that
could be desired, and I am confident that the endeavours of
my noble friend (Lord Palmerston) and of the Government
will be directed to those humane aims which he has in view
—(hear)—and that the Italian Government being appealed
to in a friendly and respectful tone, and with the fullest
acknowledgment of its independence, will not resent these
disclosures—somewhat churlish though the manner may be
—but will feel that those who, from whatever motive,
when horrors and abuses exist, drag those horrors and
abuses into the light of day, co-operate with them, whether
they mean it or not, in the sacred objects they have in
view, and will gladly avail themselves of that assistance.
I will now say a few words on the speech which we have
just heard from the right hon. gentleman. Ido not know
with what impressions hon. members listened to that speech.
I own 1 could better understand the critical and negative
than the positive and Lifirmative portions of that speech.
As to the critical and negative portion, it appeared from the

clear summary the right hon. gentleman gave us that in

everything her Majesty's Government have said and in
everything they havo done—in everything they have omitted
and committed, they have been entirely wrong—(laughter)
. . . _

—that their efforts have been misjudged from first to last—
that they have been odious to all parties, and disastrous to

everyone concerned. (Opposition cheers.) That is, I think, a
fair summary of the right hon. gentleman's speech, and I am
glad it is echoed back as such. Well, that i 3 the part which
England, according to the right hon. gentleman, has taken
in respect t ) the Italian question. From the right hon, gen-
tleman I appeal to the Italians themselves. (Cheers,) It
said we ought to teach the Italians to depend upon them-
selves. In like manner we ought to leave them to judge for
themselves, and I say that they will not concur in thb state,
ment of the right hon. gentleman as an impartial desorip-

lion of the proeeeenee4 of her Majesty's Government. TI
opinion of the Italians themselves
to be this—thi
the aid of material force from England they neitnee expects
nor desired, but that the aid of our moral force and influent
was to be expected, and had been of great and lasting bong
to the cause of Italy. (Cheers.) I appeal next from the rigt
hon. gentleman in vindication of the policy of her Majesty'
Government to the people of England. (Cheers.) For
think the right hon. gentlem in, let him select his own au
dienco at Slough or elsewhere---(oh, oh, and cheers)—wil
find it difficult to bring himself anywhere, throughout th
length and breadth of the land, in contact, in the free ligh
of day, with English opinion without learning, on the con
trary, that—not only from party politics, but likewise, in n
inconsiderable degree, ab( ye and beyond and independen
of party politics—the course taken by her Majesty's Govern
went ever since its accession to office with respect to the Its
Tian question has bre ugbt a deep, hearty, and affeeticuat
response from the all but unanimous people of England
(Cheers.) Sir, to this tribunal I lodge my appeal agains
the judgment delivered by the right hon. gentleman. Bn
when I speak of the pi sitive parts of the speech of the righ
hon. gentleman, to what do they amount ? New, what fa'
his opinions about Italy ? (Hear, arid laughter.) Last yes
we thought we understood them. I have not got his speed
by me, and my memory is sometimes treacherous—[M
hon. Member—" Hear, hear," and laughter] ; but
thought the right honourable gentleman was sufficient!)
h
explicit. He told us, I think, that the question WI
-8,
might become of the political rights of the eubjee°
of the Pope was a matter of infinitely small cense"
quence, but that the maintenance of the temporal petal
of the Pope, with a view to securing his spiritual
pendence, was a matter of the utmost concern, in whicb
all Europe was interested. That, I think, was the enee"-
i
the speech of the right hon. gentleman. Does he adhere n)
that opinion now? Has he made any progress in his Gerrity
sideration of the Italian question ? (Laughter.) I are
to say that in my opinion he has not yet got to the 0
and root of the matter, but from partial indications sue/lha,
I have not observed in his discourses before I think he I
made a certain progress, and, possibly, if he be assisted an;
encouraged, he may hereafter get on a little furthe,riti.
(laughter)—for the right hon. gentleman to-night has u
covered that Cavour was a great man—(cheers Oat
laughter)—and that he did much for his country, and Lill%
she has suffered greatly by his removal. Unfortunate's
some time has elapsed; it is not a considerable period sins
the death of that great man, and it has taken the rig
hon, gentleman not only the whole duration of Cavour's 11.1,
—(" oh, oh I" and cheers)—but some two years after
itn:
death, to make these discoveries about the genius and
services services he rendered to his country. Then the right
gentleman says it would be an excellent thing—l
understood him, but I speak with the greatest defereneeedr
with many scruples even, as if I were endeavouring t° 0,
cipher some obscure telegram,or to read some ancient That
script with characters much defaced. (Laughter.) 1: lit
is the spirit in which I approach the speech of the °got
hon. gentleman, and endeavour to construe it. In elle pool
I did think I heard something drop from him to the 6,.fi,
that the erectic nof Italy into a great State, with stlh°7o
tive power and self-directed action, would be for the h nto
of Europe and of England, If I understand him tigh to
think I e•a
I beg to congratulate him en having given utterance ore
that opinion, because I think it shows that his opiniell r
not in a fossil state,—the) are now growing and cleci.,-°el
ins;, and that there is no saying what he may corn° ;jor
last. (Cheers and laughter.) But although I tenderfmo
these compliments, be they worth much or little, Icor
bound to say that I am obliged to offer them with verY note
siderable reserve ; because, although it is one's duty to
err
every promising indication of the policy of future GI les
ments—(hear, hear) —it is exceedingly important °laden'
and the people of England should know what is the P"r
now favoured upon that bench. (Loud cheers.) 1; tne
must take notice that there were parts of the speech ert
fir
right hon. gentleman which still suggests to my up
givings, and even, I will frankly own, awakening 1000
nance. The right hon. gentleman deprecates o°oBl
views in Italy. Whatdo extremeviews mean in 'tali
mean this—those who think Italy ought to be Italy are
of extreme views. (Hear.) What is the position eIA boil
at present ? It is such as the case of England wet fo•
Cornwall and Devonshire were in the possession of 'toll'
reign power, and if London was garrisoned by another' ;010
oh, and cheers.) I think if that were the state a igcner
England, we should find that a very large number e'broef,
sons were possessed with those extreme views.(Rear'until
and laughter) --and would not altogether be satisfied 104
they had seen the one Power driven out of CornWel Loin
Devonshire, and the troops of the other dislodged froln';;,
don. In one point I entirely agree with the right hog,
tleman, tleman, and I agree more fully with his friend the 1. for
member for Canterbury. I believe the hon. reerewede 600
Canterbury in that excellent speech which he delito 101
nothing more true, more just, or more wise than t."" to 0
the true course for the Italian Government was not t
diverted by their political objects, however imports:oyd
essential, from civil object. (Hear, hear.) The first goiir
a Government undoubtedly is to look to the laws, the iii'
tenance of order, and the wellbeing of society in te, toil!
tory within its control. These sentiments are connn
right hen, gentleman and the hon. gentleman the reflato
for Canterbury; but how differently were they used loos
two. The hon. member for Canterbury used them in de of
of the conduct of the Italian Government, showing, scsro,
as his judgment went, that they were sensible of their rot
and that this duty constituted their primary obligationo.
is
not one word fell from the mouth of that hon. gentle/33,a the
disparagement of the ulterior duty of se' king to hriVis
country of Italy to its integrity and its unity. (Ilear'),,ss
right hon. gentleman quoted the member for Canterh7ol
somebody sometimes quotes Scripture. (Oh, laughtebo'r for
cheers) He quoted the sound doctrine of the IneTatibie
Canterbury with regard to the primary, everyday' 'noon 0
able, imperative duty of the Italian Government to
ri dip
the organisation of the country it possesses, fora le poll
ferent purpose; he alluded to it in order to groundhft
the doctrine of political finality—the doctrine t'''`" 001
Italian who thinks Rome the natural and,a„leorn
capital of a strong and permanent Italian 1“13,700,00°
to be put down either as a revolutionist or as ."-gtyier
He alluded to it for the purpose of establishallo re
that the present state of things in Italy le tnlt sl;
gardod territorially, though not civilly, as final'tletilj
pears to me that the generosity of the right hon. 0..." gi
to the Italian people consists in this, that he " (I,°ll-
them everything that he cannot take from theeli„tleo7,i
laughter.) At a former period the right hon. gB"day
was, I think, an advocate of federation. But ti,13:0 eia,ao(l?
federations has gone by, and Italian freedom '-',-„uies'it
cated itself over so vast a proportion of the
henie' st°$t°
that now there is no longer room for that se tot -il
the right hon. gentleman, forgetting the things...," OS'
past, abandons federation, and says, " 'ye" !tors
but don't let us go further." I confess I have,nelf4j,
that when the patience, moderation, intelligence, " pea'
oipline, and self-command which the Itallaatnel
have shown in so extraordinary a degree shall, in
dom of Providence, at some early period bear their "--0,0011
and proper fruit in the acquisition of other territorial,
in moral right belongs to them—(cheers)—when °he to
got it, and when it becomes obvious that it canneto.r;
from them, we shall have among others the right P.' liter'
(lad 0
tleman walking in the rear of the triumphal can---- 0080..0
—and joining the,whole people of England in their
a 105
acclamations upon so happy a consummation. 'it 00,0"
say that if critical times were to come, I have ne°l°Poe
confidence in the right hon, gentleman's Italian to
If there were to be a reaction, if foreign force lied
something towards breaking up what Is now uniteutii- ot;
I feel no absolute confidence in my own weld, pone
right hon. gentlemen would not fall back on n'a'roi 003
of federation. He is, I am afraid, in an Ip,,Peneklts
(laughter)—his mind greatly wants to be strengt'ingn'
encouraged in the good cause, and nothing strir 001°
and encourage it so much as a strong and univer6a 1 Sect
ration in favour of Italy on the part of the Pee!...lat:eta tbijo
land. And let the right hon. gentleman enders to to 1
it will not do for him, it will not do for his frienutto'r the
culcate those equivocal doctrines— (cheers)—te ail 010
ambiguous sounds :n the face of the nation, do af-1
made up its mind to anything on earth, has Tatnot
mind to this, that Italy ought to be one an fat
ought to be free. (Loud cheers.) If, on One
titedl;ol
policy of her Majesty's Government has not 013e"ben
the charm of magic, still less is it true, on the °to clie'tbe
it has irritated those with whom we ought ti deeBion
alliance, Too well does France appreciate,opts he
Emperor of the French understand the action o', to
0 loon
in this country to suppose that any Governtneut ooon AOOO
construed as feeling other than the most frienalliva ;iO,
towards France, because on occasions of this ktio
41 ce°
not dissociate itself from the universal enthusias.
olio
th
tions of the English people. Although the P
Government may not have operated, as I heyacousilla,,,a to
magic force in precipitating events towards a
eo,pecwijoy
tion so glorious that, perhaps, it could hardly ht that eon'
be reached except after some tract of time, Ye focal of
I assert, has been leniently, indulgently, and itle°
judged. Nay more; it constitutes one of th°
tine peal to
noble friend to the confidence and approval et copeeisreeuod
(cheers),—because they believe it has been t} ts
equity and justice, and that is directed towalg,)
towards a righteous end. (Enthusiastic she
T J, house
The amendment was then withdrawn. aurae' and
into Committee of Supply, and immediatelye Zeal
The Offences (South Africa) Bill and the 11
Boundaries Bill were read a second time.
POOR REMOVAL BILL' of this kit De
Sir H. BRUCE moved the second reading the
Mr. DUNLOP moved as an amendment
read a second time that day six months.
Mr. AY TON seconded the amendment
The house divided. The numbers were
9
For the second reading ................. 5 49
Against it .........................
Majority e- ..............
The bill was thus lost. ,nrelt.
The house adjourned at 25 minute5t;.......,..

vO'

ASPI.)
London and Published by IVILLO--,,AAe.
of No. 112,Printed Strand, Printer, at Tur SUN
Strand, in the Precinct of the 'Savoy,
tb
ritiddletiex,—SaturdaY, 314 Y 9, 101