The Sun.
London, England, 1830-02-23 00:00:00

mentary privilege ; and in his address to those in whose
sefferings we all sympathize, and who are bearing it with
a degree of patience, resignation, and forbearance, which
redoubles our natural sympathy for affliction, says to them,
" Do not be moderate, do not be temperate, it is your duty
to resist the legislature with force, and while you do so
resist what shall I do ?—Shall 1 head you in your resist-
ance? No ; but shall be glad to hear that you resist
while I sun safe from all penalties or consequences."—
( Hear, hear.)—.l ask if that was not the effect of the
language used by the Hon. Gentleman ?—(Mr. Hume
negatived this,eepresentation). Oh, Sir, lam glad that
the Hon. Gentleman in his cooler moments disapproves of
what had escaped him.
Mr. HUME said he retracted nothing of what he had
before ex pressed.
Mr. PEEL—I thing the Hon. Gentleman distinctly
said, that when corrupt majorities of this House supported
the Government in extravagant votes, the people had no
remedy but in a recourse to physical force, and that he
should rejoice if that appeal to physical force were made.
Why, Sir, let me ask what would be the result of such PH
appeal ? Could the Government in that case have any
other alternative but that of meeting physical force with a
decided, successful, and unqualified resistance? And then
be would ask the Hon. Gentleman what were the conse-
quences of his appeal, and of the necessary resistance to it ?
Could he reconcile it to himself that he, in his place in this
House, had expressly said that he should rejoice if an appeal
to physical force were made? Sir, I cannot venture to trust
myself further on this subject. My feelings are really too
much excited by language of the nature which I have heard,
and I deprecate too strongly the success of such an appeal,
to be able to enter further into detail. There are none,
lam convinced, likely to support the Hon. Member for
Montrose in such an appeal ; and I believe the people of
this country are too cautious of the advantages they enjoy
sander the form of Government which protects them to
listen to his appeal ; but if, unfortunately, any portion of
those who are suffering distress should attend to it, what
would be the responsibility resting upon the head of that
man who, saving himself under his Parliamentary privi-
leges, had excited them to a fruitless, hopeless, and
wicked resistance?—(l he Right lion. Gentleman sat
down amidst loud cheers.)
Colonel DAVIES said that, if a total loss of temper
showed which party had the worst of an argument, his
Hon. Friend behind him was not the one who had to
lament It is defeat. The Right Hon. Gentleman's censure
for attacking the conduct and motives of the majority of
Friday, applied equally to him (Colonel Davies), for it
was he who made the attack upon them.
Mr. PEEL said that his observations had not been
directed against the Gallant Colonel. He had not been
peeseat when the latter Gentleman made the remarks to
which he now alluded.

Mr. HUME (to Mr. Peel)—Why were you not pre-
sent ?—( A laugh.)
Colonel DAVIES said that, as the Right Hon. Gentle-
Men censured his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) for condemn-
ing the Government without hearing the arguments, so he
should not himself acquit unheard. He would ask what
proportion of the JGO majority had heard the arguments
in support of which they voted. Certainly his Hon.
Friend behind him was, of all men, the least open to blame
for not being constant in his attendance. He did not con-
ceive his Hun. Friend's observations to admit of the con-
struetion which the Right Hon. Gentleman had put upon
them He (Colonel Davies) understood his Hon. Friend
only to have expreaasel hie apprehensions as to what might
by the consequence if the present distresses of the people
accumulated upon them, and no means were re,orted to
for their redress. God forbid that he should endeavour
to foment violence or discontent, but really no man could
foresee the result, rr the country continued to go on from
bad to worse, without any relief. When men were
goaded by privation and want, they would pay regard only-
so the dictates of nature ; and it was tine duty of prudent
men to eke all in their power to guard egainat the possible
censequencea of such a state of things.
Me. JEPHSOX made a few observations, in win:ell he
combated the policy of any present reduction of tine pay of
the soldiery.
Nil- 11. HARDINGE, participating folly in the indig-
nation which the speech alluded to had ecited in the
mind of hie Bight Hon. Friend, should proceed io reftita
as concisely as Ise eould the misrepresentations advanced
in that speech. Tine lion. Gentleman was mistaken when
he described the pay of the soldier as having been increased
since former times. In 1796, the prey with an increase of
id .per diem lead been settled by Mt. Wiedharn, since
which the allowance of beer formerly grantea via com-
muted to a penny additional, But no one could Fete:cal
to maintaira that such commutatioo was a virtual increase,
of pay, which on the whole had remaioed on the footing
eetatilishell in the reign of Queen Anne. It hail bean also
said that the pay of the officers was too high, and that of
the Guards more especially was depreeated, i3nt he ap-
pealed to any is/ember present whether the subalterus of
the Guards might not be said to give their services to tire
public gratuitously. to feet, many around him gave
higher wages to their wrier:it; 014 of livery than 7s. 10d.
a day, which was their quota, and di,4 pot include many
of the rosemary expences requisite to keeping op tine ap-
pearance at a gieptleman. They \vete, meremeee., Fobie is
go abroad, Ind aufierat to the other contingeneiez of
tary life. No corps of the line had seen more active ter.,
vice than the Guards during tha last thirty years. They
had been in Egypt, in both Ameaeleae, and the Peninsula.
In the Ist regiment of the Guards, in which he and a
gallant Colonel opposite had had the hollow: 444 aarye, not
less than 28,000 mere lead passed through the ranks wie;oiß
that, period. The pay is proportion was at the same time
lower than in the time of Charles 11. Where there Were
formerly IA battalions, there were pow only 56. They
were likewise maintained at a cheaper vats': than in 1792,
es there were at present fewer officers exit mete •e men.
As in the manner in which they discharged their out,-
in the metropolis, he belicecoad it gave general satisfac-
tion, and be had no doubt isat the Hon. Member
for Westminster would testify that the .yery best under-
standing subsisted between them and the inliabiSente. The
cavalry likewise had been stigmatized by the Hoe.
who bad observed that they were more numerous now them
in 1792. But he begged lease to reminp him that there
were fewer regiments now than at thet period, and the ex-
pense W:l9 to he estimated according to the officers and not
tha number of !nen, There were then 180 rani; and file,
and the number now was 300. In France the propoetioo
of soCdiers to cavalry was at present as four to one, while
in this country they bore a proportion of nine to one.—
'Thins the proportion of cavalry to infantry on the conti-
nent, was double that of ours. 'fie tabtia tine Guards,
At a cut of 6,0001. perannum, was referred it; by the
Morr. Member as another itoin of extravagance. Bur:
recollected some years ago haviog had a similar discussion
ran this very subject, when he stated that the subalterns of
seven battalions of the Guards cost the erenatry less than
env, r battalions of the Line ; so that after all tire.:: was a
difference of one half the expense in their favour. It sea,
observed, amongst other details, that the recruit:ng depart-
ment was higher now than last year ; butt the fact could be
easily accounted for. There was a plan agitated, by which
soldiers would be allowed to receive their discharge 1:4, years
after entering tine screi,ee, and be thus enabled to leave the
army (Awn at 35 years of ice, in the prime of life. He felt
,convinced, that hitherto the ditfi.carlty of getting out was
a principal elute 9f the popular disgust ezainst entering the
:army, and it was as well to meet this objection as to create
a saving in the pensiomiisi that the step he spoke ot.r was
taken. Diacharges to the number of 2,000 were so given,
not as formerly, at 201., but at 16i., 7.. or 51„ according
40 the year. of nteryice. Tine charge of our colonial and
lonian islands haying been alluded to, he trusted lt. could
,„ti,ry Ow Committee tss that point, by merely stating
that theta' was a sexing eateeted in this department of
100,000/. since 1822. A fe\v eathee items would go far
towards showing generally ths extent ,Of thre reduction. Iu
the staff, the eluting since 1912 amounted to -g0,:0;-;./.; in
the miscellaneous; ,department, comprising eleek,e' salar*sr
Las., it was 25,05 V. ',errs than in 1822: in the tueelical ,
department it was 11,93,31,; in the Military College it
was 13,005/. ; in the Paymast.ar_ Genevan; Office it was
56,000/. ; in tine full pay of sestpg4 officers it was
41"01. ; in the half-pay it was 149,951/. ; and in the
foreign ball-pay, 19,0004 The commutation bAtaveen
the old half price commission,: would induce a saving o
10,0001. a year. Then there were other considerable le-
e/a:talons. In 1815 number of og)cers had been
; and in 1830 it sy-a,. only 14,910 ; ,t-Hs 3,495
ten the half-pay had died in the intern ti. been
ssanid about .41ft/inhaling our military force; but if some ,
eoutesetropine, such as the massacre of the whited, were to!
take eLCZ in our eeltwies, he apprehended that Govern-
ment would pot forward ;104- a sorry justification if they
could onlyallege in excuse thattlaew had made such a reduc-
It:eon in conformity with tine redviCe of phe Hon. Member
ear ifontrose. He was deecidedly opposed ao those sug-
getaieea, and hoped that Menr.barA would not be deterred
trout doing tieeir duty by virulence end invective.
DENOION professed a sir-weer iri isit to econo- I
anise, but &ft
.at the earue thee the necessity of .taitably
,maiotainiug our estaldishmeorao In the colonies a very',
considerable saving, in his opiniors, might be mule, con-'
siietently with their safe keeping and the pepper dignity of
die mother country.
Lord ALTHORP, in reply to some,observstiona of tine
Right tion..and GatlantSeeretary at War, could trot adroit
that the present military evablialunent was tar eessary for:
SIN C.9"utrY v9ulLi he vviictfr ia the krillciPle lb

his comparison between the British and foreign relative
number of cavalry and infantry. The Bight Hon. Gent.
had said that. the proportion in foreign countries was to
have four infantry to one cavalry soldier, while the Bri-
tish was nine of the former to one of the latter ; but the
condition of these countries was entirely different, and
therefore the principle of the comparison was inapplicable.
With respect to the amendment of his Hon. Friend, he
must say, that were it pressed to a division, he could not,
for want of sufficient information as to the details, vote
:.or it.

Mr. Alderman C. SMITH said a few words, which
were quite inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. MONCK was of opinion, that both numerically
and arithmetically these reductions might be made by a
careful inquiry into th- ,irnimstances of each colony and
depot, and by a reduction of the soldiers' pay from 13d.
to 11d. a (lay. He admitted, that with only a reduction
of 1,000,000/. in the expenditure, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer could not take off taxes ; but were the savin4
extended to 3,000,0001., which he thought it might, then
the public might have the benefit of such a system of eco-
nomy, by an immediate reduction of a portion of their
burdens.

Mr. HUME in reply said. The Hon. and Gallant
Secretary had denied that the Hors., Guards and Life
Guards hail at present a greater number of officers than
they had in 1792, when the fact was, that in that year
their number was 7.3, while in 1828 it was 104.
Sir H. IL'aRDINGE—I never said a word of the Royal
Horse Guards, but confined myself to the Life Guards.
Mr. HUME said, that then his whole argument bad
been mistaken, for he had spoken of both descriptions of
corps, and the paper which he now handed over to the
Hon. Secretary, signed by Lord Palmerston, would prove
the fact he had stated. (This paper was handed across the
table to Sir Henry Hardinge, hut not being immediately
returned, Mr. Hume excited some laughter by saying, in a
loud tone, " Give me hack my paper.") The Royal Horse
and Life Guards amounted in 1792 to 678 rank and file,
while in 1828 they were 1,144. Each man, too, cost 751. a
year, without his horse, while the infantry cost only 311.
He complained in the strongest terms of the great increase
of late years in the estimates of the army pay, which in
1822 and 1823 only averaged 2,550,0001., while at pre-
sent it was 3,000,0001., and he then enumerated the
various savings in the Colonies which might at once be ac-
complished by proper military reductions. It was unfair for
Hon. Members opposite to insinuate that he had stigmatized
the Guards as unfit soldiers—he had never east such a reflec-
tion upon them, because he knew they had always done their
duty, and were ever ready for service. He had never indeed
denied the efficiency as soldiers of any of the corps, but he
had shown, he thought, that the extent of force kept up was
unnecessary for the country, and had entailed a great burden
upon the people. Then the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Peel)
had attacked him, and said he wished to excite the country
to rebel, going in at the same time upon the whole question
of the doctrine of non-resistance, lle denied that any
Government could exist upon the doctrines laid down by
the Right Hon. Gentleman; or that any thing which had
fallen from him could encourage rebellion. " Which," con-
tinued Mr. Hume, " is it, I or the Government who are
stimulating resistance-.. 1 who warn them of their impend-
ing danger, or they who precipitate themselves into it, by
pressing with an iron hand upon a suffering people ? If
a starving population address the Government, and say
we cannot bear your pressure of taxation. ' 0, you are
mistaken,' replies the Right Hon. Gent.,' I know better,
for you can bear it well.' Who is the person, then, I ask,
who promotes rebellion—l who wish to see justice done to
those who are suffering, or the Government who have '
overburdened the people until their patience can no longer
endure the load. When the Right Hon. Gentleman talks
in this mariner he mistakes the effect for the cause. I wish
to ward off uproar by timely concession, and he to promote
it by withholding just economy. I stand here, thank
God it is here I stand—(A laugh)—when I say these
things, for I see the Attorney-General just entering the
House ; and I know that if I repeated my words out of
doors) be would have me in his fangs in another place,
where I could expect no justice from hint. But I will
take care of myself out of doors, and that I am not to be
caught by the Law Officers. A little prudence is, They
say, worth a good deal of valour, and it is for practising
it that I am to be stigmatised as a cowardly rebel. It is
not I, but the Minister, whose acts tend to rouse the people
to the exercise of physical force, and I have no hesitation
in saying that I shall be ready to repeat every word that
has drawn down upon ma the animadversions of Hon.
Gentlemen opposite. I have no fear of being made re-
sponsible for the consequences. That responsibility rests
on the head of the Government, and not of the individual
who ;rankly warns them of their danger." The Hon.
Member proceedail to remind the House that although he
had acceded on Friday night to ;,... coneitierable limitation of
his amendment, that concession was unattended by any
good affect. Ile now therefore fell back upon his own ori-
gipa) yifaw,, 44 woold persevere in proposing the larger
retjuctiort i anti it was not for Ministers, but the House, to
cieida, op the ease which he had made out.
Mr. PEEI—I Isiah, Sir, tp explain the oloseryations
which I made a short thaw ago, and I beg you to remem-
ber, that when I made them I said, I felt entirely satiafiad
that the Hon. Member would himself, in his cooler mo-
naepi.a, condemn and disavow the strong expressions into
the pap of whialt be had been for an instant betrayed ;
and I think 414 eaapeetatiou has been realized by the ex-
planation whichhe leas&iYeilp therebi ahowing I did not
form a false estimate of the lion. Nerober'a feeiinZo=
The expressions which caught my ear, and at time moment
excited my anima:version, were that the vote of this
49:-Isa: on Friday night would justify the people in an ap-
peal tot;hysia;al. face, and that the lion. Member, so far
front regretting, WoOld Fijoit:e et that result—a meaning
which would 1 knew be dwavowed tE7 ,iw ppop reflection.
I beg to take this opportunity of sae ing, that 1 neirea nsed
such an expression as "cowardly rebel." I shauld be
ta.ary; hinder any circumstances, to employ an offensive
phrase to a 4 :loc, 4jember who may happen to differ
from my view of public afa4ra,
The Comin'ttee then divided-a--
For Mr. Home's amendment w.i
st g.clpst it
Majeritti -io i'aeottr of the original resolution.. —132
£100,347 for the eta, pap of staff officers for the cur-
rent year was the next reaolutioae
Mr. HUME objected to the vote as far Pactea4iifg tlfe
necessary military peace establishment of the country, par-
aitaa:aaly as it stood in 1792. There was the Adjutant-
Ganeaara faaaartment that imperatively called for time
pruning knife of aetae,aphotent, its cost having nearly
trebled since before the beginpiag of the French war. In
1807 not less than 5001. per annum waa a,l,led to, the pay
of the Adjutant-General, on the pretext that he had 2u7
coat-; to visit officially, so that his salary, which formerly
was flied at ;.,VO/. per annum, now amounted to 3,100/.
'Then there was the ;riall Adjutant-General's department,
still more extravagant in it:: e;,:patt4iture than the English,
the former having not less than nine Adati.t4r4-14e!?era!s on
Oa jaay, and the latter but eight—a number which lag
thought ataaiat tp be reduced at least one half. Reduction
should also be umad.a. the staffs of the lonian Islands, the
Cape of Good Hope, the 'A;a,arit.ius, Ceylon, New South
Wales, and the other colonies, whit), iileed, he saw no
raaaau why they did not maintain their own tniiita';' asta-
blishrne4,Lia 'We on. Member proposed as an amend
ment, that but 0‘;.,43411. he granted for the expense of
staff cfficers,—an amount Vi-!ii;l4l,e, ,",td, though 15,0001
less than that proposed by the kixbit llop. Secretary at
War, was twice as much as the estimate beI.QT.T ~e !"?In-
inencana;nt of the French war.
Mr. INIAfaZIILY advised his lion. Friend not to press
his amendment to a tiiv„;aion; as his so doing would be but
3 wasting of time.
fiia ;1..)1IN WROTTESLEY saw np reap why the
QuartermssieraGetteral's department shoalld loe kept up k‘t
its present high rate, .Whet was time necessity of keeping
a Quartermaster-General at Plymooth and another at
Portsmouth ?
till li. HARDINGE begged leave to remittal tios;.
Mpphata,, that the staff estimates had been reduced
27,06 a wati4 the last two years. The Hon. Member
was in error in stattt4e.g ale;sat no reduction had taken place
in the staff department in Ireaaria:, for the present estimate
contained provision for one AdjutantaZiea.ea•a:, e Assist-
ant-Adjutant-General, and one Brigade Major 'fesa ;;:te,r.
that ad t:aat year. He was also in error as to the pay 4
time Adjutant-4e:;eaal, which was in fact more than
1,0001. per annum ii.a'af: illaja in 1815. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Staffordshire (Sir J. lis'roit.;:ea;.,a;,) :ps also in error
with respect to the Quartermaster-Generale f:a4rtinotit,
for, wit:, the exception of one officer, it stood at preaai:t
on the. Ot:A1184 tl-,,c establishment iii 1792.
Coloneil p.A.I.K.' i,•; ~:.,;1 to know on what grounds it
was pretended;o Pat,laY Ale .i'a, iWtrt 2f. from six to 10 In-
spectors of Militia otthe loranialsa, :--ts pad been the
case for the last 15 years, though, taa the tigkt Hon.
Gent. very well knew, there was no militia of any j;rntl
tha, island.
Sir ,i. MURRAY said that those inspectors were not
paid as inspectors, ;iot as residents.
Colonel DAVi.k‘A. retslie,; rho' they were paid as resi-
dents as well as inspectors. 411. me .eneu.-i;; :if the military
establisio‘aots called for a minute inqu,
arY,—the' raaner, tic
those colonies (iiial not belong to us, and were a great,
burden annually to the country.
Sir G. MURRAY said that every reduction hail la en
leffixted compatible with our existin; relations with those
islands? and with the Melittrraneau generally. In fact, '

the estimate was not less than 3,20/. less than that of
last year for those islands alone, and they contributed in
some degree to the expense of their own military establish-
ments. Malta, in the same way, contributed to the mili-
tary chest not less than 10,0001. per annum. The lion.
Member for Aberdeen was in error in supposing that no
reduction had been made in the staff of the colonies, for
that of Sierra Leone bad been le•sened 2,000/.—that of
the Cape, 4,oool.—Ceylon, 2,400/.—Trinidad, 9311,_
Mauritius, 8001.-4Nlewfoundland, I,2ool.—and several
others to the amount of 1,8221. The Canada estimate
was not reduced, it being found necessary to maintain a
force to protect it against the consequences of domestic
oppression.

Colonel DAVIES was of opinion that the Cape of Good
Hope had been always a source of too great an expense
since that colony came into the possession of England.
Mr. HUME wished to know how the Right Hon.
Gentleman could justify the enormous increase that had
taken place in the salary of Commanders-in-Chief within
the last forty years. In Lord Amherst's time the salary
was but SOO/. per annum; in the Duke of York's it had
increased by degrees so as to amount to its present charge
of 15,000/. per annum.
Sir H. HARDINGE denied that the reductions had
fallen exclusively or peculiarly on the Medical Department,
and said that the pay of the Commander-in-Chief of the
Forces was the same now as it was in 1792.

The Committee then divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it 122
Majority ~..-81
. .

The resolution was then agreed to.
The next resolution was then proposed,—namely, that
106,530/. 15s. 3d. be granted for the allowances of
the principal officers in the several public departments of
Great Britain and Ireland, and for the payment of their
deputies, clerks, and contingent expences for the year 1830.
Mr. HUME pressed upon the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite the necessity of reducing the expences of the Pay-
master-General's-office. The business of that office might
be transacted for 5,0001., if a proper system were adopted.
He observed that the Judge Advocate's salary had been in-
creased in 1817 on account of the large number of corps
then kept up : upon the same principle his salary should
now be diminished. He thought that by adopting a better
system the vote now proposed might be reduced 40,000/. ;
but he would content himself with moving, as an amend-
ment, that it he reduced to the extent of 10,000/. only.
11r. CALCRAFT said, that the office which he had the
honour to hold was a most ancient one. O❑ looking back
for the last 125 years, he found that it had been filled by
some of the most distinguished persons who had taken a
political part in the affairs of the country. Whether a
better system of accounts might not be adopted in the office
was a question upon which he would not now enter. He
administered the office as he found it. Referring to the
accounts of the office for the last 50 years, he found that
the public had not lost a single shilling of the money
which had passed through the office. When the House
recollected that during the war hundreds of millions
passed through the office, this was a fact of no small im-
portance. Though the office which he held was not a
very laborious one, yet it was one of great trust arid re-
sponsibility. Ile had various duties to perform, which
occupied a considerable portion of his time. Amongst the
rest, he presided at the Board at Chelsea Hospital ; and so
constant was his attendance there, that since the proroga-
tion of Parliament he had not had a single spare week to
himself. The office at the present moment stood lower
than at the time of Mr. Burke's great reform ; for then
there were two paymasters and two deputies.
Sir 11. PARNELL said, that the Right Hon. Gent.
had made out no case to rebut the charge advanced by the
Finance Corn arittee—mmely, that the office which he held
was a sinecure office. The Right lion. Gent.'s deputy
told the Committee that he executed all the duties of his
principal's office. It was, in his opinion, a serious objec- •
tion to the establishment that the ()Slicers i❑ it possessed too
uncontrolled a command over the public money. The
Right Hon. Gent.'s reference to the period when there
were two paymasters, was a common-•place fallacy ofjusti-
fying an existing abuse by the example of one still greater.
He was surprised to hear the Hon. Gent, say he would
postpone the consideration of the question whether the
business of his office could be better conducted than it was
at present. Ile thought that this was the time for con-
sidering that question. He hoped that Ministers would
not call upon the House to agree to the vote now before
them next year. He WAllof opinion that the duties of the
Treasurer of the Navy, the Treasurer of the Ordnance,
and the Paymaster of the Forces, now paid at the rate of
55,000/. a year, might be effectually performed for one-
third of that sum.
Mr. CALCRAFT denied that the officers in this de-
partment had unlimited control of the public money.
Mr. MABERLY said, if he recollected rightly, the
flight Hon. Gent., when he sat on the other side of the
House, disappro‘ed of the office which he now held.--
(A laugh.)—With respect to the manner in which the
business of the office was conducted, he begged to remind
the Committee that Mr. Sargeant, in his evidence before
the j?inance Committee, said, that be had it in his power
to go r,way with from 200,000/. to 250,0001., and the
loss could not lie discovered in less than a week,
Mr. CALCRAFT denied that he had ever spoken in
disapprobatio❑ of the office which he now held.

Mr. MABERLY had spoken from recollection only.

Mr. CALCRAFT said, that all the accounts connected
with his office had been submitted to the inspection of Mr.
Ahl4,tt anti two oilieF gentlemen appointed to inquire into
the public establidiments, and who were perfectly satisf.ed
with tLeir correctness. There was no cstabliahmeut in
which so much justice was done to the public in the mode
in which its business was transacted.

Mr. MAIIERLY said the Right Hon. Gentleman should
ssunie no merit for submitting the accounts of his de-
p.. tmeilt to tlw inspection of Mr. Abbott, for he was
obliged to do so.
Mr. CALCRAFT denied his having claimed merit on
that ground.
Sir 11. lIAtiDINGE stated, in justice to his Right
lion. Friend, the Paymaster of the Forces, that as Chair-
man of the Cheispa Board, he had to attend the Board
frequently. The meetings or the Board for the payment
of the out. pensions, amounting to 1,241,6011., amounted
to forty-two in the year, exclusive of the meeting of the
Board of Chelsea Hospital, which wade the number of
nle;,-;tiin,rg his Right Ilon. Friend was obliged to attend
amount to fifty, 4iid ;:e had known his Right lion. Friend
frequently come from the country, where lip bad heen two
or three days, to attend those meetings. These duties, it
should he recollected, were exclusive of those which he
had to discharge as Paymaster of the Forces.
Mr. G. DAWSON wished to correct the random as-
sertion oi tic,' porn 1 ember opposite (Mr. Moberly) with
respect to Mr. Sergeant's eyidpripe before Ilse liance
Committee. Mr. Sergeant's statement was, that if two
or three other officers connived with him, he might be
able to draw .200,000/. or 300,000/., without being dis-
coyered for the space of twenty-four hours. But the very
officers whose connivance, according to that evidence it
would be necessary to command, opted as checks against
the possibility of such an occurence in a public establish=
went.

Mr. MABERLY had made no random assertion regard-
ing Mr. Sergeant's evidence. The evidence had, in fact,
when gives-. 4,:fore the Finance Committee, made such an
impression, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer took
upon him to say that he should forthwith talp suttee steps
to make the public money more secure in future.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
oh ;;otie side; of the House they were speaking from their
recollection as to tl.e eyif!ence, and that therefore allow-
ances should be mutually made. He would agree with the
Hon. Member opposite, that the impression made upon his
the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) mind by the evidence
of My. Sergeant before the Committee, was that the public
toriey which could be drrswn, as Mr. Sergeant stated,
wus not apfficiently secured, and accordingly a Treasury
was passed, which pup it l'fice;_;7:, 4ut
powev s 4Ry inelividual dry morNy as 4lr. verges} :t
had described ; fur i,s ;t was rcanired that 411 drafti fqr
money should be signed by two Olieer; pf the Tre,3oy
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had always the nicst per»
feet confidence in the honour and integrity of Mr. Sec-
geant—(Hear, hear)—but the facility which he stated to
vi,.th respect to the drawing of money in the Trea-
sury it wai'uteesa-i.r7 to nut an end to, tor the general
security.
Sir J. BECKETT said, the lion. Mertabey fat /Our-
deen was incorrect in his statement as to the salify of the
oiee which he (Sir J. Beckett) filled—that of Advoca,r,e-
t7I,
Geperail. f:r from that salary having been increased,
it was lower now tban it wall ;41 1922; it was then 5,4001.
This year the salary was 4,4001. let 'thoteld he. izollect,ed
that his Deputy in Ireland was pail put of the mini gi-en in
the estimate. The affice of indge-Advoe;ate was regulated
c.F, it at present stood in 1806. The salary up to th tt ;re-
upon certain fees and c•rneluments at-
tached to tiie Thiiice hot Lords Greaville and
Spencer, justly thinking dint a .it;liciel Officer
should not be paid in such a manner, made the sab.:iy
fixed one, and it was thou settled (he memt the mere
salary, exclusive of the eher allowances) at 2,500!.,
whic:.. automat it reinabord to the present day. Tlt rt.
ainodnt wagichnscn tts eq..eval...t to the salary of a Puisne
Judge'th'en ; inif.tlidugh'ehe sal wies or Puisne Judges had.
been since increased, that of the Judge-Advocate •int'd
same. Since that time, tool reduction 4 had been

made in the officers attached to that Court, by which a
saving accrued to the public of 1,0001. per annum. A
saving of 6001. a year had been also effected by the reduc-
tion of the office of Judge-Advocate in Ireland, and a
saving of 5001. a year by the abolition of a similar office
in North Britain. By the reduction of an Assistant-
deputy in this country another saving had been made of
600/. ; and in the Colonies, by the reductions of offices
similar to those attached to the Court in this country, a
saving of 1,0001. a year had been made. Thus a saving
to about the extent of 3,700/. had bee• made for the
public. The duties of all those offices had devolved upon
the Judge-Advocate in London, and not a sixpence had
been added to his salary.
Mr. MIME contended that his statement was correct.
In 1798 Sir C. Morgan did all the duties of the office for
1,031/. a year. The salary was raised in 1807 to
2,5001., in consequence of the great number of cases that
came before that Court, owing to the great army which
we had then on foot. But as that reason no longer
existed, they should ranee the salary to its former amount.
The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ca'craft) had
said that he had never given a vote in opposition to the
opinions which he now expressed in support of the office
of Paymaster of the Forces. Now the fact was, that
when in 1822 he(Mr. ilume) moved an address to his Ma-
jesty for the reduction of that and various other estab-
lishments, for the purpose of effecting a saving for the
public to the amount of 4,000,0001., the Right Hon.
Gentleman spoke and voted in favour of that motion.—
(Hear, hear.)—He did not mean, in stating that, to
charge the Right Hon. Gentleman with inconsistency ;
for when he supported his (Mr. Hume's) motion, he sat
on that side of the House; but it was now his duty,
sitting on the opposite side, to oppose the reduction of
this office.

Mr. CALCRAFT said if he had, upon the occasion al-
luded to by the Hon. Member, voted for the reduction of
this office, it must have happened from its being lumped
together in one sweeping motion with several others, so
as to escape his attention; but even when he sat on the
other side of the House he had uniformly supported the
maintenance of the present military establishments of the
country, which he considered to be on as low a scale as
the public service would admit.
Mr. HUME, before they proceeded to divide, wished
to observe that the Right Mon. Baronet below him (Sir
11. Parnell) had said that there were two establishments,
one of which this was, costing 90,000/., and that 40,0001.
might be saved from the estimate for them. Now he
(Mr. Hume) did not go so far as that—he only asked for a
saving of 15,0001. out of 106,530/.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers were--
For the amendment 42
Against it
Majority against the amendment —76
The original resolution was then put and carried.
The next resolution was 14,420/. for the charge of me-
dicines and surgical materials for his Majesty's land forces,
and of certain hospital contingencies, for the year 1830.
Mr. MABERLY took that opportunity to refer the
committee to the evidence of Mr. Sergeant before the finance
committee, which he had since procured, and in which the
witness stated that he could draw 200,0001. or 250,0001.
out of the Treasury without the chance of a discovery pro-
bably for a week, when the accounts would be laid before
the inspector. That showed that he (Mr. Moberly) had
made no random assertion on the subject.

Mr, G. DAWSON maintained that the check which the
inspection of the accounts afforded in that case had been
left out of sight in the former statement of the Hon. Member.
Mr. HUME conceived it injurious that each branch of
the public service should have its medicines contracted fin•
in a separate way. He was convinced that by such a plan
the House left the public open to great expence. Such
was the opinion of the Finance Committee. Every branch
of the public service should be supplied with medical
stores in one uniform manner. He had no objection to
the vote this near; but he thought that it was one whirls
required the immediate attention of Government.
The vote was then agreed to.
_ _ _

On the resolution to grant 60,812/. Bs. Id. to defray
the charge for volunteers in England and Ireland fur the
year 1830,
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to object to the vote, so far as
related to Ireland. He thought that the army in Ireland,
during what he might, perhaps, be permitted to call the
late civil commotions of that country, had performed its
duty, from the highest officer Jowl' to the lowest subaltern,
in the most exemplary and praiseworthy manner. He sug-
gested to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite that it wan
necessary to recollect that a large portion of that army had
been employed in the north of Ireland for purposes into
which he would not enter. The conduct of the yeomanry
in that part of the country he could not praise. It was
supposed to have bees kept up for purposes not of protec-
tion, but of oppression. He submitted that it was a
description of force which might be well spared. In the
province of Connaught, where the population was almost
entirely Catholic, the amount of yeomanry was but an unit.
In the province of Munster it was only a decimal ; in the
province of Leinster it was a hundred ; but in the pro-
vince of Ulster, where the population was chiefly Presby-
terian, it was a thousand. If the yeomanry wet e diminished
there, the army might be diminished too ; for the presence
9f the army was wanted for no other object than to pro-
tect the people from their outrage. For these reasons he
should move that this vote be reduced to 50,8121. Bs. Id.

Sir G. HILL—If the yeomanry force could be spared,
should have no objection to the proposed reduction. He
could not, however, submit to the insinuation of the
Hen. and Learned Member for Clare, that disturbances had
os iginated in Ireland from the conduct of the yeomanry
corps. As a proof that the yeomanry corps in the north
of Ireland had merited well of their country, he would
merely state that the Insurrection Act lid travelled through
every county in Ireland, save the nine counties in the pro-
vince of Ulster.

Mr, S, RICE supported the amendment, on the
ground of eonomy, and of the internal tranquillity of
Ireland.

Lord F. L. GOWER said that it was only doing bare
justice to the Hon. and Learned Member fur Glare to
declare that he had touched upon the subject of the Irish
yeomanry with a moderation which must be highly ger-
viciaable to his view of the question, He was of opinion
that any inconsiderate meddling with that body at the
present moment would produce an irritation of feeling
in Ireland, which it was desirable to avoid. lie ad.
witted that the time had at last arrived when this question
ought to be looked at. He should be sorry if the Hon.
lleinhar for Glare pressed his amendment, for he bad no
objection to take the sOject matter of it into immediate
consideration.

Mr. RICE, after such an admission front the organ of
the Irish Government, should suggest to his Hon. and
Learned Friend the propriety of leaving the 'eduction in
the hands of the Ministry.
Mr. BROWNLOW could not intend any thing disre-
spectful to the yeomanry, in whose ranks he had had the
honour of serving, but he thought that the time had at
length arrived when, in point of economy, it ought to be
dishanded.

O'CONNELL was most ready to withdraw his
amendment, and would prefer the proposition for the re-
duction of the yeomanry coming trom the other side of
the House rather than from himself. He denied every in-
tention to traduce the yeomanry of Ireland. When tirst
called to the bar he was one of their number, and had
moved that they should extend their services to every
part of Irelaad, He hoped that nothing which had fallen
from him that night would have the slightest tendency 'o
embitter the quarrel between the two parties in the north
of Ireland.

Mr. TRANT desired the Government to be cautious
how they reduced a force in Ireland which had rendered
such inestimable services tp the country.
Mr. lIUME submitted to the Right Hon. Secretary for
the Dome Department the propriety of reducing the
amount of the English yeomanry. Let them tither be
dislu pr continued at their own expense.
41r: PEEL said, that in the speech which the lion.
Umber for Alierdeen had delivered on a former evening,
hp had accused him of acting in contravention to the rule
which Lord Lansdowne had laid down for the reduction of
the yeomanly corps. Ile aplaialed to his Hon. Friend the
Member for Limerick, whether he had not strictly followed
the rule which had been left in the office of his noble
predecessor. When Lord Lansdowne left office, the ex-
pense mg the yeomanry force amounted to 66,0001., and
it was now reduced 10 per cent. There were only 22 corps
in the mint:factoring districts. lie then proceeded to eu-
h;gize the yeomanry corps in Ireland, and mentioned as a
proof of their spirit, xhat ;ta 1814, when Bnonaparte
te-
turned from :I".lba, they had yolunteered their services,
both Catholip, 'od Protestants, to any part of Ireland.
The flop: P!:Ptleman concluded with expres&ng his
readiness so mike inquiry it;tp the propriety of rethieing
the yeomanry of Ireland, as bad beets done in England, but
he was not preo,red to agree to an immediate reduction.
Mr. R. GO,DON observed that the yeomanry were
not the fittest corps to put down local disturbances. Ile
co; hi nr.t help igcolLePtiflg—he wished he could not recol-
lect.'..—the occiurrences at 4lanchester.
Mr. PEEL raid there Were yeomanry ()dicers in the
House, to wlstaz. he would appeal, in confirmation of his
assertion that full confidence might be placed in those
I.cortus who would never refuse to put down dis b4nces,
tts defend the laws, or to co-operate in any legal object ,
( I rear.) If his Majesty were W iNuelts order tv-4prww,
•