The Sun.
London, England, 1863-05-06 00:00:00

INIPERIAL PARLIAMENI
HOUSE OF LORDS—Last Evening,
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack ai
the usual hour.

The Earl of POWIS presented a petition from the
clergy of Poole against the sale of intoxicating liquors on
Sunday.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Rumsey and Brecon and Merthyr Tydvil Junction
Railway—Banff, Macdng and Turriff Extension Railway
—Brecon and Merthyr Tydvil Railway—Peterborough
Cattle—Caledonian Railway (Granton Branches)—New-
tc wn—Mackynlleth Railway (Capital)--and Merthyr,
Tredegar, and Abergavenny Bills were read a third time
and passed.
VICE-ADMIRALTY COURTS BILL.
This bill was reported with amendments.
THE MAIL PACKET 'SERVICE.
Lord CHELMSFORD asked the Postmaster-General
whether her Majesty's Government had accepted a tender
from the Belgian Government for the conveyance of the
English ma is between Dover and Ostend, and whetherthey

contemplated any alteration in the mail packet service be-
tween Dover and Calais ; also, whether any failure in the
performance of the existing contract between her Majesty's
Government and Mr. Joseph George Churchward for the
mail service between Calais and Dover respectively had
occurred to render any change necessary. The noble
and learned lord gave an outline of the arrange-
ments between her Majesty's Government and Mr.
Churchward, and said one of the contracts entered into
expired in the month of June next ; but in 1859 an exten-
sion of the contract had beerigiven up to the year 1870, with
an increased subsidy of £lB,OOO per annum. Into the
validity of that contract he would not enter; but having
heard that certain alterations were to take place in the mail
service, he wished for information on the subject,
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said he would not
touch upon the preliminary observations of the noble lord,
as the matter would no doubt come before one of the
courts of law. With respect to the packet service between
Dover and Ostend, the English Government had entered
into a conditional arrangement with the Belgian Govern-
ment for conveying the mails at a considerably reduced
rate. If Parliament voted the money for the continuance
of the contract with Mr. Churchward, then that contract
would be carried on, but in the event of that not being the
case, then the arrangement with the Belgian Government
would come into operation. With respect to the loss that
would fall upon the Belgian Government by the
low rate at which they had agreed to perform the
work, the Government had nothing to do with that. All
they had to see to was that the service was efficiently per-
formed. With respect to the mail service between Dover
and Calais, a proposal had been made to convey the mails
at a considerably reduced rate, and negotiations for that
purpose were in progress. The arrangement is to stand in
precisely the same position as in the former, viz., Par-
liament not finding the money to carry on the contract
with Mr. Churchward. the Government had no fault to
find with the manner in which the work had hitherto been
performed, and it was not on that account that notice had
been given to Mr. Churcnward of the termination of the
engagement. The discontinuance of it arose solely in con-
sequence of the vote of the other house of Parliament.
CIIARN WOOD FOREST REFORMATORY.
Lord BER.NEKS enquired whether her Majesty's Go-
vernment had already, or would institute inquiries into the
circumstances of the late mutinous outbreak in the Roman
Catholic Reformatory in Charnwood Forest; and also into
the constitution of the appointment and pay of officers o
that institution, and the discipline exercised therein.
Earl GRANVILLE said he could not give a reply ai
present.

Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Last Evening.
The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour.
NEW MEMBER—NEW RADNOR.

Mr. R. G. PRICE took the oaths and his seat, in the
room of the late Sir G. C. Lewis.
The Skipton Gas Bill was read a third time.
The following bills weie ordered to be read a third time :
—Dublin Corporation Water; Dublin, Wicklow, and
Wexford Railway; and North Staffordshire Railway
(additional powers).

code, by her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools. 2. That to
require the employment of certificated teachers, or of pupil
teachers by school managers, as an indispensable condition
of their par ticipation in the capitation grant, is inexpedient
and unjust to the managers of such schools. In doing so
he detailed the circumstances in which the revised code had
its origin, and argued that no one belie • that it could re-
main es it now stood. The educational estimate for the
present year amounted in round numbers to £BOO,OOO, and
the number of children who were directly or indirectly be-
nefited by the grant amounted to about 1,000,000. From
that it appeared that the education of each child cost the
Country 16s, and he contended that for the purpose the sum
was preposterous and enormous. The capitation grant was
divided into two parts ; there was a grant for attendance
and a grant for examination. He was one of those who
did not attach much much importance to a certificate, but
for the sake of peace he was willing to make a concession in
favour of " vested interests." When the Government
wished to have finger in the pie they got a report to prove
that the system of education existing at the time was rot-
ten from beginning to end. Sir James K. Shuttleworth
was the principal inventor of this great discovery, and
after searching the Continent, especially Switzerland,
the system of training-colleges was established. This
Government machinery was established between the
years 1839 and 1846, and augmentation grants were
made. After all, it was discovered that the cumbrous
system had not proved satisfactory, and then his right
honourable friend framed the revised code, the object
of which was to make payments for results. It was impor-
tant to take a glance at what was going on in the educational
world. They had mechanics' institutes which were all
bankrupt ; he was heartily sick of them. They had also
the Society of Arts, which requited looking after. There
was also a College of Preceptors—not teachers, or school-
masters, but preceptors. (A laugh.) He was at a loss to
understand why such varied attainments should be required
on the part of persons for teaching little children up to 12
years of age reading, writing, and ciphering, and learn-
ing how to behave themselves. The system of certi-
ficated masters and that of pupil teachers he con-
sidered objectionable. He knew teachers who would
rather give up their schools than be compelled to
take pupil teachers. In a school of which he had himself
the charge, he was desirous of procuring a married teacher.
One well-qualified teacher had applied to him, but as the
man was unmarried the negotiation soon came to an end.
Afterwards a teacher left a much better school to come to
him, and why? solely because the man wished to get rid of
the nuisance of pupil teachers. (Hear.) The certificate was
regarded at the Education Department as the mightiest in-
strument of regeneration; it was supposed to make new
creatures of the teachers after 12 months' training. Another
thing which his right hon. friend wished to do was to create
a body of teachers complete and applicable to the wants of
all the rural schools. These were persons from 18 to 25
years of age, but everybody who knew anything about
bringing up young people would be aware that this class of
teachers was not the one best adapted for the purpose. The
Government had no ground for saying that they required
an additional test for determining the progress of children
at school, for there was no difficulty in ascertaining the fact
by the simple method of individual examination,which was
now the rule of those schools. The hon. gentleman read
extracts from the ungarbled reports of certain inspectors in
support of his views, and disapproving of the pupil system.
Those reports showed that the elementary branches of edu-
cation were not well attended to, nor the mechanical part
well done ; and further, that highly trained masters and
mistresses were unsuited for country village schools. He
next read several passages from letters he had received
from various country clergymen who were managers of
schools, condemnatory of the system of certificated masters
and mistresses. It often happened that the children who
attended the schools of certificated masters were ineffi-
cient, in comparison with inferior schools, in what it was
most essential that children should be taught. The cer-
tificate was no guarantee for the excellence of the master;
for where they were good for their work they were gene•
rally above it, and were ambitious to become parsons.
To show the abuse of the system, the hon. gentleman
read extracts from letters showing that certificated masters
were used with advantage in those schools where the cler-
gyman took private scholars ; and referred to the extrava-
gance of giving money where it was not wanted, in order to
bring the schools under inspection. He was opposed to the
subsidising of private schools conducted for profit, and ex-
pressed his opinion that they would ultimately be extin-
guished by the national schools. Ragged schools, he con-
sidered, ought to be assisted from the public purse if they
complied with the required test, He concluded by moving
the resolution.
Mr. BUXTON hoped the house would observe that
there was nothing in the motion of his hon. friend which
Indicated that the system of giving certificates upon exami-
nation to teachers should be done away, or even in the
least degree weakened. Neither his hon. friend nor himself
had any wish at all to place the schools under non-certifi-
cated teachers upon the same level as those whose teachers
were certificated. On the contrary, he thought it would be
rash to make so radical a change in that. What they
thought was that, under certain conditions, all schools: for
the working class should be open to inspection—that for
each child who was actually found proficient in reading,
writing, and arithmetic, the managers should receive that
portion of the grant which was to be based on such pro-
ciency, but that the attendance grant should still be con-
fined to schools under certificated teachers. Then came the
question whether they would not be ruining that mighty
educational organisation which had been erected with so
much labour and expense during the last years. The pro-
posed modification would leave it untouched. There
would still be certificated teachers—and as to expense, the
only increase which the change would entail would be
at the outside £200,000 a year. They should, however,
bear in mind this striking palpable fact, that,
although the so-called national system had now been at
work for a great number of years, schools containing
600,000 children of the working class were debarred from
connection with it. An effort should be made to bring
those schools in connection with the system, and he believed
that the change proposed would have that effect. It would
not endanger their educational system ; it would not involve
the country in extravagant expense ; and in the long run
would spread, the benefits of a sound education over a far
wider space. and would invigorate the schools in which it
already existed. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LOWE said he was unable to reconcile the resolu-
tions proposed with the speeches that had been made by the
mover and seconder of them. One did not conform to the
other as they ought, and it was impossible for him to under-
stand what it was that was really wanted. The construction
to be placed upon the first of these resolutions was, that not
only schools where the attendance, followed by examina-
tion, was sufficient to entitle them to a grant of public
money, although they did not employ a certificated master,
but schools which did not comply with a single rule laid
down by the revised code would be entitled to a grant. If
they were to debate the question for hours, it was impos-
sible they could pass such a proposition. As for the second
resolution,its adoption would actually amount to the holding
out of a premium to schools not to be decent, not to be well
managed. He was perfectly satisfied that, if they were to
make the concession demanded that evening, they would
have to give up the certificated masters altogether, The
examination was a thing to be borne down by pressure. It
required all the support that could be given to it. Above
all, it required good teaching. He should despair of being
able to maintain the standard of examination if they broke
down the standard of teaching. The objection to this pro-
posal was that the Government should have to make a grant
to any school where it had not tested the capacity of the
teacher. In 1853 the present system was introduced, and
under it no one was admitted to be a master of a school who
had not received a certificate of qualification, and that certi-
ficate was only gven upon examination. He thought there
was no reason to regret the present system. People might
differ as to the advantage of grants in aid; but there
could be no doubt as to the benefit conferred upon schools
by giving them really efficient teachers. Of £6,700,000
which had been spent upon education since the year 1853,
no leas than £5,000,000 had been spent upon this very ob-
ject of raising the character of the teachers. According to
the second resolution, they would be at liberty, indeed, to
train these teachers ; but then the public need not have the
advantage of them. His hon. friend told them that if a
school dispensed with a certificated master they might im-
pose a penalty upon it. Still they might dispense with the
penalty as well. Had they been wrong in what they had
done? They had 8,123 schools, and 9,115 masters; and he
ventured to say that there was not a single school in which
cleanliness, decency, order, and discipline were not enforced
—not one of them whereof the master was not perfectly
able to afford the instruction required. As a class, the cer-
tificated teachers were a highly meritorious and useful body,
although there might be much to regret in the conduct of
many of them, and although it was perfectly true that the
training colleges were pitched far too high originally. But
his hon. friend had not given himself the trouble to inquire
into the alterations which had been since introduced. No
doubt many of ihese young people were conceited, but let
their position be considered. To find themselves suddenly
placed at the head of large establishments, with residences
and la ge salaries, and such important functions, was
enough to make them mad with vanity. (Hear, hear.) It
ne
no
htehvienaa :mace.
statewas ridficu.louri to found arguments upon an exceptional
xienetlloNl :ohnfilat:cawenah:ettfhhoeannt°dtbhitebetat teaching
5t o fo theothe
oroeov quality speedn ote
haddthe e?
Wborne good fruit. But then came the 'report' of the Royal
Commission, and while it agreed in neral as to the
quality of the teaching, it pointed out that it was deficient
in quantity. Well, they set themselves to remedy that
evil, and the result was the revised code. They saw that
it was necessary to abolish the appropriation fund, and
that it should no longer be distributed amongst the
masters as a matter of course ; they therefore took the grant
away from the masters, leaving the certificate on the num-
ber of children who passed their examination. On the other
hand, they retained the whole machinery of certificated
teachers, pupil teachers, inspectors, religious teaching ; let-
ting go no security which they had already, they added a
security with respect to the quantity of the teaching. Well,
was it the logical inference from that that they should
abandon all care as to the qualifications of the teachers ?
They had established two classes of teachers—the first class,
entrusted with the charge of pupil teachers alone, must have
passed a very good examination; the second class comprised

those who had not been in a training college, but who were
capable of standing an examination in reading, writing,
and geography--just the very class of whom country clergy-
men stood so much in need. Well, the grievance was that
they would not give the grant to schools taught by teachers
who would not submit themselves to be examined, who were
either too ignorant, too wayward, too conceited, or too timid
to do so. (Hear.) But they refused to trust the youth of the
country in the hands of persons of whom they knew nothing
except that they were unwilling to pass an examination in
the very elements of learning. In the next place, as to the
number of the schools with respect to which their text was
applicable. It had been stated authoritatively that more than
15,000 schools were excluded from the grant. Well, at a
future date he would undertake to prove that the figures
from which that deduction was made were utterly unreliable,
and that the compilers of those statistics were in entire
ignorance of the real number of the unassisted schools. It
must be quite obvious that the present proposal would
have the effect of destroying the training college s. Now,
if that was to be done, let it be done openly and
decidedly, and not through the instrumentality of a casual
alteration in the system. The system of the revised code
was yet untried ; still, he had great confidence in its success.
But not only was it untried, but it had been shorn of its
original vigour. They had to give up the system of group-
ing by age, and they had to weaken the examination test.
And there was this point also, to which the attention of his
hon. friend had not been called. Very many duties were
cast upon the schoolmaster. He had to keep a record as to
his school, and a registry of the number of attendants that
entitled him to receive the capitation grant for his school.
He had the arrangement of the children for examination,
and he might pack them by placing them in the wrong
classes. Well, then, was it too much to require that, as
much as possible should be known as to tit- integrity and
intelligence of a person so placed ? They had the means of
acquiring that knowledge now, and they had something like
a hold over the masters; but rob them of those facilities,
and they would be paying away the public money upon the
faith of men whose previous history they might be en-
tirely unacquainted with. Let them abolish the test and
consider how many inspectors it would be necessary to
keep going upon errands round the country. He confessed
he might have some hesitation in adhering so strictly to
the rule with respect to certificated masters, if the inferior
class of teachers had not been introduced. But every one
whom he had consulted had admitted that the certificated
teachers were the corner-stone of the existing system; and
hat if they flung them away they would be upholding a
worse system than even that from which they had emerged.
With regard to pupil teachers, it was the duty of the
Government to provide them with efficient teachers.
The educated schoolmaster was also of great assistance
to the clergyman. The children who frequented the
sch of had never before come in contact with a man so
cultivated as the teacher. They could not depend for his
efficiencyon the managers, who might have chosen a teacher
without knowing anything of his qualifications; they could
not depend on the inspection, for it often only lasted a few
hours ; the only thing they could depend upon was the test
of examination, and he trusted the house would maintain it.
(Hear.) Let them consider the impression which an effi-
cient schoolmaster was capable of producing upon the young
and plastic minds of children; and they should be careful
that the man to whom they entrusted so much should come
up to the standard which they wished them to attain. They
would not trend a man to cut a diamond who had no skill
in cutting diamonds; and yet the children of the country
were worth many diamonds. (Cheers.) They also owed
it t i the public that they should not only do their best, but
influence them as far as they could in the right direction by
precept and example. These were the grounds on which
he trusted the house would not ask the Privy Council to
give up the certificate, which was the only means by which
they could judge of the efficiency of a teacher. This was too
important a matter to be bartered away for a few shillings.
If it was not to be maintained as it now was, let it to be
altogether abandoned, and let them revert to the old state
of things. They had provided 3,000 more schools than ex
isted in 1859, while there were also 27,000 more children in
attendance at school. The expenditure last year was r nly
£770 0.0, and for this year the estimate would be
£804,000 ; bat, according to the calculation of Sir J. Shut-
tleworth, if the expenditure were to be regulated by the in-
crease, it would amount to upwards of £1,200,000. For all
these reasons he trusted the house would not substitute for
the new system, which was yet untried, but which, as far as
they had gone was working well—that they would not substi-
tute for it one which could not yield the same substantial
returns. (Cheers.)
Mr. DUTTON said that anybody who knew anything of
echi..ols must be aware that the difficulty was not in getting
the school built ; and it always struck him as the greatest
blot upon their system of education that the Privy Council
gave no aid towards the great expenses in rural districts,
where the master or mistress were not certificated ; and if
the hon. gentleman divided upon that point, he would go
into the lobby with him.
Mr. F. POWELL differed from the hon. gentleman who
introduced the motion that there was any over-education in
the country. It seemed to him that the hon. member for
Berkshire took a one sided view of the system. He regarded
the question from an agricultural point of view, having the
rural schools present to his mind, whilst disregarding the
schools in towns. Something had been said about the aver-
sion to pupil teachers ; but he trusted the day would never
come when masters would be unwilling to give instruction
to, and receive assistance from, pupil teachers. The hon.
gentleman quoted a speech from a report to show that it was
no part of the Liberalism of France to give schools to inef-
ficient teachers. He thought the experiment of testing by
results should be allowed a fair trial ; but the could not ap-
ply the system of testing by results to reading, writing, and
arithmetic, as such a test could only be obtained from the
future career of the pupils.
M. SALT thought it very undesirable that any change
should be made in the new system until it was fairly tried.
He did not now say whether the new code was good or bad,
but, as a manager of a school, he felt it was his duty to
carry out the system sanctioned by Parliament. What they
were doing now was experimental. They would know more
and more by-and-by, and the language of the managers of
schools should be, " Let us alone until we see how the new
system works."
Mr. ADDERLEY said he gave credit for perfect sincerity
to the mover of the resolutions, but he could not altogether
follow the hon. gentleman who seconded the motion. He
thought the aim and object of all public grants should be
the improvement of the previous system of education. There
were hitherto three tests established to entitle a fehool to a
grant; first, that elementary instruction should in every
case be given and received ; secondly, the test of inspection
both as to the state of the school and the attendance and
general competition; and thiroly, that the schools should
be under certificated masters. The hon. member for Berk-
shire (Mr. Walter) now proposed to do away with the last
two of those tests within twelve months, and to open the
public treasury to all those schools which fulfilled the first
condition. It was true the hon. gentleman had somewhat
modified that view in his speech, so that those schools should
only be entitled to a portion of the grant ; but he thought,
when dealing with public money, it would always be found
very dangerous to make any exceptions to the general rule
once established. (Hear.) The result was generally found
to be that after a short time the exception became the rule.
He was disposed to apply the grant to Echools for the poor,
but not to poor schools. The hon. gentleman asked that
the poor schools might be admitted to a participation in the

public grant upon answering the tests of attendance and
examination. But he wished to ask, were those schools ex-
cluded now? Certainly not. Those schools might obtain
the grant if they chose, but they would not. The first
obstacle was pride, and the second was the reluctance to
submit to the examination of the Government inspector.
He had had numbers of applications to contribute to
schools., but when he had offered to do so on condition
that there should be a Government inspection, his offers
had been regularly refused. The hon. gentleman also
objected to the money spent upon certificated schools.
The hon. gentleman concluded by moving, as an
amendment, to leave out after "applicable," and insert
"to schools only of the working classes, but to all of
them alike, in the way of proportionate aid to voluntary
support; subject to the favourable report of the inspector,
and to tests of at least elementary instruction being given
in them by teachers in all respects qualified."
Mr. HENLEY said he had heard a very good speech
frem his right hon. friend opposite (Mr. Lowe), but it was
obvious that that speech would have applied to the state of
things three or four years ago, but not now. He would,
however, vote for the resolutions of the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Walter), because he believed they would be for the
advantage of schools spread over a considerable area of
country which had been taxed for the last 16 or 17 years
without showing any sign of discontent. He could not
support the propositions of the right hon. gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. Lowe), because he did not believe they would do
any good to the great number of village schools. He espe-
cially disapproved of that portion which provided that a
school of perhaps 30 children should be left to the care of a
pupil teacher of from 20 to 25 years of age, probably with
no mother or other relative residing near her. The lower-
ing of the certificate would effectually pull the quality of the
schools down to a lower s'ate tban previous speakers ima-
gined. They were going to increase the schools in number
and lower them in quality, which he thought bad policy.
All schools containing any considerable number of pupils
would for their own -ekes prefer having trained to untrained
masters and mistresses. He cautioned the house against
adopting a system that would reduce the schools to a very
low state indeed. Two things were necessary, viz., that
education should be based on religious training; and se-
condly, that the system should be made more elastic, so as
to take in the large number of outsiders—the ragged schools
and the Arab population—and not allow them to go whole-
sale to a place that must not be named—(hear)—without
rianda l
holding a helping hand out to them. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PULLER was of opinion that it was better to meet
the resolutions proposed by the hon. member for Berk-
shirepro-
posedstaffo
Staffordshire,
ht
ree right.
the
if the
adopted,m e
woulde member for Northuiate
de-
parted from their present system and relaxed their check
their hands the whole
gt ehnerztveorranf theenstchwoooulsm, and if they
.lyeowanietthereotal
the management
rit,raegative than by the amendment
soon have in
oxPetute and control of the education
of the country.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said he did not understand that