The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-23 00:00:00

to risk a revenue of a million and a half, and to entrust
to the Treasury the mode in which that risk should be
effected. They were giving to the Treasury enormous
power—the power of interfering with the right of frank-
ing, wholly or partly—they might take the privilege
from the Lords, and leave it to the Commons, or impose
any restrictions they pleased. They were to
have the whole discretion as to the stamps to be used,
and there was no penal provision against the forging
of stamps to be used in any case of this kind.
That was all to be left to the Treasury. They were not
only to have the power of raising or lowering the rate
of postage, but they were to have the power of inflict-
ing any penalty they pleased for forging the
stamps. They were about to confide to the Treasury
alone the whole discretion of dealing with one branch
of the revenue, which was giving them a power which
might be increased in a manner that would be fatal
to the best interests of the country. He trusted
that the suggestion he had thrown out would be con-
sidered by the Government.

Mr. F. BARING said that the Right Honourable
Gentleman had completely misunderstood the
clause to which he had referred. He had him-
self proposed the clause and he could take
upon himself to say that it had not been introduced with-
out the full knowledge of the House. The object of the
clause was to get rid of small grievances, and not such
extensive ones as the present Bill was intended
to remedy. He admitted that considerable powers were
given by the present Bill ; but he felt no hesitation in
saying, if there was any check which could be pro-
posed by Hon. Members which did not interfere
with the principles of the Bill, they would be gladly
adopted by the Government. Now, what were the
powers given by the Bill ? The first power was that
they should adopt the plan of the stamped cover, or
such other plan as the Treasury might think proper,
which was to be carried into effect at the time, and in
the manner the House should think right. It was very
easy to make an Act of Parliament, stating that on a
particular day a certain arrangement should take place,
but there would be great difficulty unless that power
was placed in some particular hands, and what hands,
he would ask, were more propr than some of the exe-
cutive departments of the Government ?
Sir R. INGLIS doubted whether it was fit to give
to any Government or any Chancellor of the Exche-
quer the powers conferred by this Bill. The power of
altering the rates of postage might be exercised in such
a way as to satisfy one side of the House only. He
did not accuse Hon. Gentlemen of introducing that
clause purposely, but he did accuse them of having
carelessly brought it in, and that was a suffi-
cient censure to pass on any Government.—
( Hear, hear.) Was there one Member in that House
who believed the Bill bad received the cordial support
of the whole Government ? Was not the Bill forced
on the Government, and was it not a compact with
others whose support they hoped to purchase by this
concession ?—(Hear, hear.) Was not this the first
instance in which any Government had brought for-
ward a measure of this kind against the authority of
that department of the Government charged with their
fiscal concerns ? He would ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer if he was not bringing forward the question
against the opinion of the Postmaster-General and the
great body of the officers under him. It was a plan,
not for the benefit of the poor, or it would have received
more support from his side of the House ; it was a plan
for the benefit of the great traders, and he believed it
was brought forward on Political Union grounds—
(Oh, oh)—for the benefit of the great commercial
establishments, and in order to obtain their sup-
port for a tottering Government. The franking
privilege of the Member of one of the great
houses was worth at least 300/., and therefore he placed
no value on the meeting which was held at the Man-
sion-house a short time ego, for they petitioned merely
to have a heavy tax removed from their own shoul-
ders. Supposing it was necessary that the experiment
should be tried, why should it be tried at the expense
of the Parliamentary privileges of the Members of that
House ? If no one else had the moral courage to
oppose that part of the plan, he, in spite of all odium,
would divide the House upon that part of the plan.—
( Hear, hear.) Upon that point he claimed the vote
of the great calculator of the House. Was the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny prepared to sacrifice 151. a-
year for the benefit of the commercial class ?—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He for one was not prepared
to give up the privilege of franking, which was now
so limited. Why, he would ask, could not the expe-
riment be made otherwise than at the expense of the
Members of Parliament? He trusted the House would
not consent to do away with a privilege so trifling.
He believed that the Government had conceded the
question in order to obtain the support of the Hon.
Gentlemen who sat behind them, and he believed fur-
ther that it was brought forward in the hope that it
would_never be carried.--(Hear, bear.) He believed
that none were so disappointed at the division upon
the question as the Government—(Cheers)—and that
none would bo so delighted as them to be beat upon
the question that night.—( Hear, hear.) He believed
they would have been satisfied with all the glory of the
concession without the risk of the triumph. He was sure
the present state of the revenue would not justify any risk,
still leas the voluntary abandonment of a revenue so
large.—( Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding the defeat which
his Right Hon. Friend had sustained, and in which no
one sympathized more than the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer—( A laugh)—he should move that the second read.
ing of the Bill be postponed to this day six months.
Lord SE YMOUR, who was very imperfectly heard in
the gallery, said that he differed entirely with the Right
Hon. Baronet who had just sat down.—( Hear, hear.) It
appeared before the Committee that some Hon. Members
exceeded the number of franks which were allowed, and
amongst them was the Right Hon. Baronet.—(A laugh.)
Now this was certainly a mode of cheating the public
revenue. —( Cries of " Order, order.")

Sir R. INGLIS said that when the Noble Lord intro-
duced such a phrase as he had done, imputing to Hon.
Members that they cheated the public revenue, and when
he assumed to connect that statement with his (Sir R.
Inglis's) name, he felt bound to rise.—(Hear, hear.) If
the Hon. Member for Greenock was present, he might
rest his defence with him. But he could do more. From
the time when lie came into the House of Commons he
had kept a regular account of all his franks.--( Hear, hear,
and laughter.) He called upon the Noble Lord, when he
rose again, to state whether that evidence to which he
alluded was on the table of the House. The Noble
Lord could not state that. The Honourable Mem-
ber for Greenock knew that was not the fact.
The Noble Lord knew that the statement was not *lade in
the terms in which he had stated it. He knew it was the
Secretary for the Post-office who said there were three
Members who were watched. He would not state who
those were, but that he was one. He would state also
that two Members last Monday went to the Post-office, and
were told, in answer to a question whether Sir Robert
Inglis had exceeded his number, that he had done so once.
That was done unintentionally. He acknowledged that
he should be cheating if he did it intentionally, but he
never had done so. He trusted that the Noble Lord (a
Lord of the Treasury) who had taken the liberty of saying
he was one of those who had cheated the public revenue,
would explain what he meant by that phrase.—( Cheers. )

Lord SE YMOUR should be ashamed if he had made
use of improper language, and would readily apologise if he
had eone so. —( Hear, hear.) He stated what he had
heard—that the Right Hon. Baronet was one of those
Members who did value their privilege in that way, and,
in consequence of that, tbeir:names were watched. He did
not state this of his own knowledge, but he believed there
were other Members present who had heard the same
statement. He did not know whether the Right Hon.
Baronet was satisfied with this explanation or not.
Sir R. ING LIS said perhaps the Noble Lord would
state how it appeared that he ever had exceeded. Let
any one look at the returns which he kept every day.—
(Laughter. )
Lord SE YM OUR, after a few remarks which were
inaudible, concluded by saying that if the powers required
were not given fairly and fully to carry out the plan, not
only would the advantage to the revenue be lost, but the
advantage to the public also.
Mr. WALLACE said it was quite true when they went
to the Post-Office they were shown the table at which the
franks were taken, and that the Secretary stated that it
would be impossible to watch all the franks, but that a
few Members at a time were generally watched—that the
process was going on, and that amongst the number was
the name of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite—( Laughter)
—the individual who was now addressing the House—
( Laughter)—the Chairman of the Committee on Postage
(Great laughter)—and who the other was he did not recol-
lect.—[A Member mentioned the name of Mr. Hume. ]—
(Continued laughter.) As soon as he (Mr. Wallace)
saw the Honourable Baronet, he mentioned to him
that they were in the same category. The Honourable
Baronet convinced him that it must be almost impossible,
for he kept a list, and knew not only the number but the
names of the individuals to whom they were sent. He
(Mr. W.) franked ten letters always. He might often
frank eleven or more, his correspondence being extremely
large; but his doing so gave him no concern, as those over
number would be charged. With regard to official franking
he was thoroughly convinced it should be abolished entirely.
Its being regulated so as to put an end to the existing
abuses in its exercise, he feared would prove next to im-
possible, and therefore he would strongly urge upon the
Treasury, in the exercise of those powers which were so
properly to be conferred on them, that official franking
should be put an end along with the Parliamentary privi-
lege.—(Hear, hear, from all sides of the House, in which
Sir Robert Peel and the Chancellor of the Exchequer
were particularly conspicuous.) The petitions of the
people to Parliament, and Parliamentary Papers, being
sent for the benefit of the people, were the only document
which should go postage free.—(Laughter.) There
was no doubt that very large bodies of influential persons
had been amongst those who had petitioned the House for
a penny postage, but by far the greater number were from
those to whom it really was a matter of great importance.
lie would readily give up his privilege of franking for the
benefit it would confer on the poorer classes, even
though it might increase the number of love letters
amongsti the poorer classes, of which an Hon. Member,
not now in his place, had spoken of to him, with great
fear of the consequences to the morals of the softer sex.—
( A laugh, and cheers.) He had no such fears, believing
the industrious cl&sses to be as moral to the full as those
who claimed to be their betters.—( Loud laughter.)
With regard to the use of stamps. there might be
three modes of using stamped paper. The paper-
makers raised an objection to this plan ; but he was
of opinion they had not fairly stated their case. He
(Mr. W.) was now advocating the cause of the poor. If