The Sun.
London, England, 1801-11-26 00:00:00

•
harllngements. for that purpose . had Leen,eonfirtted
): the DireCtors. For 1803, the arrangements
iv
're, that of Ships employed in the Expedition to
Egypt,it part was to return to the Port with which
in was connefled. That the Shipping employed
the Red Sea, shOuld be employed to bring.
He
the Private Trade of -India in i 893.—
" e did not say three years, but. two ; but that it
would he near three years before any new arrange-
nients would be necessary. But the East-India
Company
wished to be understood, that if there
:as any deficiency of shipping, every thing in their
rto order
will be done by them to-supply the deficiency,
order to support the Private Trade of India.
t Mr-
s_7OIIN.STONE said, he was obliged by the
:(ntnunication of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
as sorry, however, to observe, that instead of
three years, there were to be only three seasons,
4.1
Which would amount to only two years and an
Pi. However, he was glad there was this length
°
private Trade. He wished, by the way, to have
:reeolleEled, that this was no new plan, for it was
,Ylan which had been pursued with very little in_
tuption ever since the year 1798, and it was
7toedh_ in 1796. Gentlemen had often stated,
'''"tis! in that House, but in other .places, that
plan, if attempted to be carried into execu-
would be the ruin of the East-India
Qmpany, but he defied them all to come forward
I°w and prove it, or argue it. In a word, this was
1
plan approved by all the Servants of the Company
rutoad, in opposition to the wishes of the Directory
home. Here he quoted the opinions of several
entlernen of great experience and merit in India
:2, Favour of this plan for the support of the Private
"Ade, and then proceeded to take notice of what
feared to him to be a misunderstanding of the
r'.l4kx.cELLoit of the EXCHEQUER, of the applica-
itc'nol the opinion of Mr. DUNDAS on thii matter,
6t that the extremity of which that Right Hon.
tTlentleman aid experienced Statesmarieomplained in
e opinions of opposite parties was, that the one said
ti.e Monopoly of the East India Company should be
• tel entirely open'•—The other, that it should be
k4de more close. It was between these extremes
iil'
Lat Mr. DuNDA.s had said. a medium was the
t—To support this, he read part of the opinion
Mr. DUNDAs, as &livered upon this subject by
LI-ter, an opinion which, he said; was worthy of the
tttntion and of the talents of that Right Hon. Gen.
elnan. He took notice c,f another •part of the
Z"left; in which he apprehehded the CHANCELLOR
the EXCHEQUER WaSliOt-Well founded in his con-
~uSioo, who seemed, he said, to.think the Private
' 4 Trade of India was a mere remittance Trade; he
ttssiped. reasons for thinking otherwise; and pro-
s "ed to observe _ that there was a fallacy in the
at eaterit that. British Agents in India were upon
I the tame footing as Foreigners in this Trade ; for '
r 2kt- in:she case of the British Agents; Many and
7nsiderable cheeks, (which he enumerated) were
vuserved, whereas there were none such With regard
foreigners,. whOhad -therefore all the adv‘antages
'use
British -Agents', which the difference betwith
aecks-atx.l no .checks whatever could make:
;ere wits -another subje& on which he wished ko
.Ity. a few. words, the subjeet of Colonization--a
had been mentioned, and our -loss of it had
Ten .hinted at as a lesson Upon the
.subje4 of Colo-
;'_lzationArnerica was along while, indeed, be-
iire she was severed from-this Country. He would
ot say how long :we could expect to retain our
01zinions ; but he was a bold and san_
ante MD, indeed, -who
,could expert our Empire
kere to .continue for zoo years. It appeared to
n to be an Empire olopinion chiefly, inspired by
the awe of our first Conquest. That it was our
;Merest not to pursue a Plan that might lead the
;atives to reflect upon their own strength, for
hich he thought there
.was no sound policy in
ping a great many Europeans settled there,
rather that the Plan of European Settlers
could be discouraged, because this must have
te effeEt of teaching the Natives in time the
iree of their own natural strength. He con_
elided with observing, that there was one point
hich was important to be ascertained, and upon
iCli at present he felt a good deal of alarm—lt
t not stated by the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-
bQuEit what system was to be followed when the
0 years which were to be devoted to this experi-
ot were expired.
I:rhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose
' explain : he said, that he ought before to have
4'
'ated the terms which the East India Company had
,elated themselves willing to accede to. Ile then
Lead a paper, containing the whole ok...those-terms,
id concluded with saying, that it was the desire
,t 7 the East India Company to afford evcry conve-
, getice to-the Private Trade, that was not-ineonsist-
N with their undoubted rights and their most es-
tie
‘• • interests.

ti na
his
,CII'
,rth;

s
0 ft
• t 311 d

in al
c' ft;
whr

b /OH 2VSTONE said, he was obliged to the.
`.',ight Hon. Gentleman for the explanation he had
given, but he still wii3 of opinion, that if any ad-
\ antage .was,, • allowed to Foreign Flags, it would
tik.ntually deprive the Port of Lodon of that part
,tf the Trade It was far from his nwish to infringe
\lllllO-.O the rights, or to injure the interests.of the East
rld la -Com pa n but he did not consider the pre-
sent Motion as having any such tendency.
. the CH.INCELLOR.ofthe EXCHEQUER said
tlll` Present was not a
.final arrangement, but only
basis of a Plan that might or might not hereafter
'
'lr. WALLACE said, be aid not think it neces-
• sat
YI after the discussion the Question had under-
, mcne, to enter into a minute consideration ofall the
tf-&its of.the points in dispute between the Court
Jireftors and the Merchants, nor did he think it
hc7ssaty io follow the Hon. Baronet through all
ve_°bservations which he had made. The inquiry
the HouseWascaileci upon to enter into, if
'-understood it, • was this, viz. that the -House
Pid•asoertairr whether or not it was expedient to
p4lit of a 'Trade to India, exclusive of that carried
by
the capital of the East India Company, which
thqdt Was 'to be brought hOme by private Mer+
ant'Ships in East India built Ships. He confess_tit tha,„
he could not help 10-okiit at a Motion that
t:4,,,tkeed-stich- extensive consequences with
,a
k.-741'4,, bit degree of jealousy, because if this inquiry(zei„enterecl into, there was hardly one single point
1`421r-to India which might not be lino. gbL, un.

.or '~
h~°

;gib)
o,ll°
the

1;y •
wl"
of yd
Soli
ri(l6,J

;(11
0,-
ffiCie

ro
CO34ll'l_,

bi
dreAlj

der investigation by the present Motion, and ttere-
foie he could ndt giCe it his support: He laniented
that upon a stlbjed
\of such importance, Men's
minds had been so heated, and they- had gone into
such extremes of opinion, that he was sure, that
upon cool refleCtion, they would not adhere to them.
He knew that on one side,. opinions were entertain-
ed., which, if they were carried into dila, Would
tend to the utter destruCtionof the East India Com-
pany.—Undoubtedly, such sentiments could not be
listened to in this House, and he only mentioned
them to chew to what extremes, even sensible men
might be carried, when they suffered their minds to
be heated by controversy. The ground upon which
he should give his vote, to-night, was this, that
he did not conceive that sufficient reasons had been
stated to induce the House to go into the Inquiry,
and that he thought it was a direa attack upon the
Charter of the East India Company. Perhaps the
charge of inconsistency would be urged against him,
when his present language was compared with the
condua of the Board of Control, but he did not
think that imputation could be justly made. From
the documents which had been submitted to that
Board, it appeared to them, that much im-
portant., matter was involved, and they sent for
further information. In the mean time the Ho-
nourable Baronet applied to the House for Papirs,
and they were ordered What then was the
duty of the Board of Control ? Certainly not to
prejudge the Question, but to leave it open for dis-
cusion, in order that it might undergo the most
clear and unfettered investigation possible. Such
was the opinion and the condua of the Board of
Control upon this subject, and therefore, he felt
himself perfealy at liberty to state, that in his
opinion, it was improper to go into the Inquiry
now proposed. He wished, however, to observe,
that it never had been the wish of the Board of
Control, to exceed the Powers which had been
given them by Parliament ; but the Aa of 1793,
did not put, it beyond the power of the Board of
Control to interfere in Commercial Questions ;
they certainly were precluded from interfering with
the Trade carried on by the East India Company,
but certainly not with that carried on by Indivi-
duals. In the course of this discussion, the opinion
of Mr. DUNDAS had been referred to ; he certainly
was disposed to pay as much respea as any man to
the opinion of that Right Hon. Gentleman, but
upon this occasion, the grounds of that opinion
had not been stated, and upon a full consideration
of the subject, he could not entirely assent to that
authority for which no. reason had been assigned.
On the other hand, however, he could not conceive
how this could be stated by the Board of-Direaors
as a mere commercial question; it certainly was
not, and even in their own Report they had termed
it, a Question of great National Policy. But it
might be said, Why did you not oppose the produc- .
tion of Papers ? In answer to that question he
begged leave to observe, that it was at all times
rather an upgracious measure to oppose the pro- ,
duaion of Papers, particularly if no injury could
arise from their produaion ; but in the present
instance,. it was from the produaion of the Papers
that he was led to think that no further proceedings
ought to take place. In his opinion very strong
ground indeed ought to be laid to induce the House
tit etittr into this Inquiry, and the Hon. Baronet
whi3 had made the Motion had, as it appeared
to him.; totally failed in laying any ground what-
ever. the Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to take a
view of the affairs of the East India Company, after
which he adverted to an observation which had fal-
len from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
respeaing the dangers of Colonization, in which he
differed in some degree from his Right Hon. Friend.
Fip was decidedly of opinion, that all the apprehen-
sions which were entertained about the danger of
Colonization in India were perfetly chimerical,
as long as this Country set its face against it.—
He considered the case of India and America to be
essentially different ; and even in the case of Ame-
rica, zoo years elapsed before this Country suffer-
ed any inconvenience from that quarter. As to what
had been said about Lascars, and that they would.
make representations in India about the sort of
people they met with in Wapping, which repre-
sentations might be prejudicial to the British Power
in India, he considered it as too childish to be en-
titled to a moment's consideration ; but with re-
gard to the employment of Foreign Sailors, he
thought it a subject more deserving of attention,
because he should be ' extremely sorry if they
were to be employed to the exclusion of British
Sailors. That, however, was an event of which
he did not think there._ was any great danger.—
He-concluded with saying, that he, considered the
British Power in India as most intimately conneded
with the existence of the East India Company ; but
even if it were not, he should be sorry to see the
power now possessed by that Company in the hands
of Government, because he conceived that it would
create a Power extremely dangerous to the Consti-
tution.

Sir FRANCIS BARING said, that the present
claim had been set up against the Fast India Com-
pany by persons who owed every thing they pos-
sessed to that Company ; ie was in faet children
contending against their parent, and endeavouring
to rob her of her most undoubted and most essential
rights. During the course of the discussion, many
charges had been brought against ,the Court of Di-
rectors, but if their conduel was fairly investigated,
it would appear that they had upon every occasion
aeled impartially as Trustees for the British Em-
pire, and that they had no private interest of their,
own, . one way or other, upon this Question. If
any of these Charges had been proved against the
Court of Directors, it would indeed he a good ground
for Inquiry ; but it did not appear to him that
they had been in any degree substantiated. In the
Regulation which took place in the year 1793, the
object} of Government was as much as possible to en-
courage the Manufaetures of Great Britain and Ire-
land, and great pains were taken by Government and
by;the Court "of Dire tors to embraCe, every. obje4
that could tend 'to , that pdint. It was proposed
that 306(5 .toris'!should he allowed i the Court of
Direefiieg-iaid; if tYiatis not enough take double,
Only -10 • us understand what we are about. The
Court also said; if the ManufaattrerS of Great Bri-
tain and Ireland chose to export their Mannladures,
we will, Aignish them with Ships, and give them

every accoltirtiMatiort in our power, 614 let tile
Trade be carried on in British Ships ; but if ves-
sels are to be, introduced; not built in England, and -
not navigated by British Seamen, then we must op-
pose it. BUt this would not answer their pUrpose,
nceause their objed was to employ not British-built,
but Teak Ships. It had been said, that if the pri-
vate Traders were indulged in their demands,
they would bring the Trade, now carried on by
Foreigners, to the Port of London, because they
could carry on the Trade cheaper than Foreign-
ers ; but there were authentic documents that
proved beyond a doubt, that this was impossi_
sible. But if there was*any truth in their assertion, it
must follow, that in proportion as the Private Trade
increased, the. Trade carried on by Foreigners must
be diminished. Was this the case ? There - were
but three descriptions of Trade carried on with
India, viz. The Foreign Trade, the Private Trade
carried on from the River Thames' , andthat carried
on by the East India Company.—Now as the Fri..
vate Trade professed not to injure the Company,. it
must follow that as this Trade increased, that car..
tied on by Foreigners must proportionably dimi-
nish ; but it appeared on the contrary, by the re-
turns for 1799 and 1800, that the Private Trade
had increased, and that at the same time the Fo-
reign Trade had increased to nearly double. The
fad was, that as the Private Trade increased, that
of 'the East India Company diminished, because the
Private did not interfere with the Foreign Trade.
With regard to the subjed of timber, about which
so much had been said, he believed that it was
not very well understood, and therefore he beg.
ged leave to call the attention of the House to
the Report of the Commissioners who had been
appointed to examine the subject. They said there
was not sufficient encouragement in this 'Country
for the growth of large Timber, that the Navy
Board did not offer enough for it, and that there
were no purchasers for large Timber, except the East
India Company. Now, if the objet of this Mo-
tion was obtained, those who grew Timber, would
be in a worse situation than they were before. Con-
siderable reliance had been placed upon the opinion
of the Marquis of- WELLESI.EY, and it certainly
was entitled to great weight. The Court of Di-

reams were inclined to pay every respc to the
sentiments of that Nobleman, but upon this point
they could not concur with him, because they
thought it was one which ancled the very exist-
ence of the Company. It had beep urged as an
argument in support of the Motion, that the Com-
pany had sustained a loss by their Exports, but this
was rather to be urged as a.merit on the part of the
Company, than as a charge against them. Because
it was always the object of the court of Directors
to endeavour to promote the Exportation of British
Manufadures, and if it was found that ,the Na-
tives of India would take them at prime cost,
the Company always sent them out. The Hon.
Baronet had said something about the two Com-
panies that existed in the reign of Queen Anne.—"
The second of those Companies was establi,hed in
consequence of disputes something similar to the
present. The Private Trade now might be compared,
to the second of those Companies, with this differ-
ence, That the Private Trader enjoyed all the bene-
fit of :ill the Establishment 6 of the Eat India Com-
pany, without in any degree contributing. to the
expellee. It was found, however, that both those
Companies could nor e:,ist at the' same time, and
they were at last united into one. But he objected
to this Inquiry upon another ground, viz, that of .
time, because it was rendered nugatory by. the
Peace, for the moment the .Trade was open for
Foreigners to trade with their own Ports, the Pri-.
vate Trader could not come into competition with
them. Ide should conclude what he hod to state
to the House, that if cheap freight was the object
which was sought for, why not give the East India
Company the right of hiring Foreign Ships, because
the Navigation Aa certainly was not more sacred
than the Charter of the East India Company ?
Upon these grounds he opposed the Motion.
Mr. ItIETCALFE said he should give every op-
position in his power to the Motion ; but after the
full dicuseion the subject had undergone, he should
not think it necessary to go over the various argu-
ments that had been urged upon the subject. He
would, however, shortly state some fads, which, in
his opinion, must satisfy the House that this Motion
could not be entertained. For several years an il-
legal trade had been carried on between this
Country and India, under foreign flags, by persons
residing in the East Indies, any: .connected with.
persons in this Country. The flags of various na-
tions were used, the Imperial,
.the Danish, the
Tuscan, the Genoese, See. ; and there was at one
time so,ooo ton of shipping at Calcetta under these
Circumstances ; and there was no knowing to what
length it might not have gone, if it had not beer
for the spirited conduct of His Majesty's Ships of
War, and of the Governor of St. Helena, who stopped
some ships of this description; and some of them
were condemned. He was very sorry to differ in
opinion upon this subject from the Marquis of
WELLESLEY ; but with the greatest. deference for
that Noble Person, he must observe, that he did not
carry with him to India the most perfect knowledge
of the .Private Trade ; and he had not been above
t 4 days in India before this opinion was itdopted.
The persons concerned in the Private Trade in in.
dia had unfortunately contrived to impose upon the
Noble MarquiS's judgment, and to induce him to
write home to the Court of Directors, recommend-
ing them to adopt this plan, with this condition,
that British Capital alone should be employed : but
it should be recollected, that it was one of the es-
sential and undoubted rights of the East India Com-
pany, that no property should be engaged in that
Trade that did not belong to the Company.' The
opinion of a Right Hon. Gentleman, whose know-
ledge of the affairs of India Was very great, and
whose talents were undoubted (Mr. DUNDAS), had
been refereed to upon this occasion, but Mr. DUN-
DA'S by no means went so far as the Noble Marquis.
Mr. MINDAS'S opinion was merely this—that Bri-
tish Capital should not be brought home in Foreign
-Ships. The Hon. BarOnet had represented the
Court of Directors as a kind of Aristocratic Body,
only.attending to private interests ; but this was
by no means the case—they acted entirely upon prin.
cipler ,and were as independent, though they might
not possess such large fortunes, as the lion, Baronet,

Vint:h bad been said abotit the AA of 170-. .
Ati was undoubtedly most favourable for the 'Codn,
try; it was proposed by a Minister who tindersteia
the interests both of thiS Cotintry and of India; and
who certain!? had gained many important conces-
sions from the East India COmpany ; but he hoped
he should hear no more of taking the spirit of the
Ad instead of the letter of it, when the letter was
clear and explicit.—Even if the present application
was granted. did the House suppose the business
could rest there ? Undoubtedly not ; all the rrier.:
charits of this: Country would apply fur similar pri:.
vileges ; they would present memorials, and would
contend that they were entitled to the same pri-
vileges as those adventurers who had settled in
India. Plausible theories always made a consider
able impression at first, but they could not long re-
sist the weight of fads ; and when it was consider-
ed to what a degree this Country had prospered, and
what immense advantages she had derived from
her East Indian Possessions, he was sure the House
would not riszpie all those advantages to gratify the
speculations of a body of adventurers who owed
almost their very existence to that very Company
which they now endeavoured to injure. But
people began of late to entertain strange notions
about Charters, for it was not long since a pro_
.
posal was made by a Gentleman to establish a
new National Bank, and he supposed the next at.
tack would be upon the Charter of the City of Lon-
don., It had been urged, that the East India Com-
pany always objected to use Teak-built Ships ; now
it was rather an unfortunate fad fur those who made

that statement, that the only two Ships belonging
to the Company were Teak-built Ships. As to the
subjeel of Timber, he had always entertained an
opinion that the timber of India was very well
calculated to bUild King's Ships, but that was not
the object of this Motion. It was a Speculation of
a set of Adventurers (for so he must call theta,
speaking of them as a body, though there were se-
veral respedable individuals among them) who hav-
ing enjoyed ease, comfort, and affluence, under the
patronage of the East India Company, now, with
true Eastern gratitude, wanted to destroy their
Benefitdors; He trusted, however, that the House
would discourage every a:temot of this kind, for he
was convinced, that when the East India Company
was ruined, the Sun of British Greatness would soon
set for ever. Before he sat down he begged leave
to mention one fael, which would chew that the
Hon. Baronet himself, who made the- Motion, was
so satisfied of the danger.to which he was exposing
the Company by- this Motion, that from. the time
he had give7l notice of the Motion- to the..present
period, he had continued selling out India Stock,
and had actually disposed of above zo,oool. of it.
WILLIAM D UND AS disclaimed every
idea of interfering with the rights or with the Trade
of the East India Company ; the only wish of the
Private Traders was to take that Trade which the
Company could not use. He begged leave to deny
the position of the Hon. Diredor (Sir F. BAR I No),
that when the private Trade increased, that of the
Company diminished ; and read some papers to
sliew that they had both increased.
The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had said
that the Marquis WELLEsLey had made up his
opinion upon this subjed after being only 14 days
in India ; but did not the Honourable Gentleman
know, that sat that very time the Fort of Cal-
cutta was. full of Foreign Ships; and that if
-the Noble Marquis had not adopted this plan,
the consequence would have been, that all these
Foreign Ships would have-been freighted home ?
,With regard to the subject of Timber,-he bcgv
ged to assure the Hon. Gentleman, that it was
the opinion of the Noble Lord, who, fortunately for
the interests of this Country, was at the head of the
Admiralty, that it was essentially necessary that
timber should be brought from India for- the use of
the King's Ships, and there was no doubt that tie
Court of Direetors would not bring it home; he
concluded with again declaring, that no man would
resist any infringement of the Company's rights
more steadily than he should; but he did not con-
sider this Plan as affeding either their rights or
their interests.

Sir F. RARING, in explanation,
.observed, that
the Direaors were willing ,to agree, as far as re-
spefted Ships of War, but wished to stop when they
came to Commercial Ships ; and that it was known
that the Private Trade had increased, whereas the
Foreign Trade decreased very muchi •
Mr. W. DUNDAS also spoke in
_explanation,'
and averred, that be had been misunderstood. The
transaaion which he stated, did not refer to the
period of Marquis W E ESL Ey 's Administration al-
luded to, but was a recent circumstance, which had
transpired when the last accounts arrived from India.
Mr. METCALFE, in explanation, adverted to
what had been said of the indulgencics proper to be
granted to the nrivat' trader ; and expressed his
opinion, that in the- present circumstances of the
Country, it would be neither wise nor politic en-
tirely to exclude Foreign Traders, more especially•
at a period when such important arrangements were
about to be made with our late adversaries ; the at-
tempt, he said, would involve us in disputes with
every Commercial Power in America and in Europe,
and most probably tend to shorten the duration of
the blessings of Peace.
Mr. ;ONES observed, that did he deem himself
in the least warranted to consider the Proposition of
the Hon. Baronet -in the light which Gentlemen op.
posite seemed to
.view it, he should be very sorry
to be- one 'of its supporters.• Be denied that, if
granted, it would sacrifice the Foreign Trade of
India ; or, that it may be used as an engine for the
deStruetion of the Company's Charter. To him
the arguments of his pion. Friend for going into a
Committee, appeared strong and irresistible : even
the sturdy fart-advanced by an Hon. Baronet who
argued against the Motion, was in his mind a strong
additional inducement to the Inquiry. He thought
the Affairs of India, from the situation of the Corn..
pany, and the consideration of their Debts, called
for an Inquiry. The statement of the CHANCEL.
LOR of the EXCHEQUER, who, if he understood
him, bad said that the Direftors had given every
prafticable facility to the encouragement of the Pri-
vate Trade; in his opinion, however, the Direaors
had not given clue encouragement to- that description
of traders, under' the Aft of .1793. He entertained
none of those fears which-some Gentlemen seemed