The Sun.
London, England, 1839-07-16 00:00:00

impossible formerly that these things could have gone on
in this great country, oace so peaceable and so happy.—
( Cheers. )
The EARL of WARWICK said the Noble Viscount
denied teat the Government had given any countenance
to the Political Unions, but they hod a., pointed the very
men who formed these Unions to the office of Magistrates,
and they had appointed even Delegate Ceartists, and
he had had much correspondence with the Secretary
of State upon that point. He had the names
of the parties, but he did not wish to mention
them unnecessarily—but these were poitical union-
ists, and three or four Chartists now performing the duties
of the Mag:stracv, but it was clear and made so upon
the examination of Lo.att the Secretary to the Convention.
From the position which he held in the county he had paid
particular attention to the language used in that political
union, and it was as violent as that used by the Chartists.
Yet these were the very m2n selected by the Government
to fill the office of magistrates.
Lod MELBOURNE—The Noble Duke said there
I was a deficiency of activity o ) the part of the Magistrates,
aid he said that he could end no case parallel with it. Had
toe Noble Duke forgot the unfortunate affair at Notting-
ham, where a mill was burnt, while two troops of yeo-
manry were standing round, and within sight.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) No duuht, they had acted
under mistake as to the law, but they thought they could
not act without the orders of a magistrate.—( Cheers.)
These things arose suddenly, and he was informed
that the police waited in this case also for the
orders of the magistrates, who were not quite pre-
pared, not expecting any tumult that night.
He was not fully informed on the subject—
( Hear, hear, hear)—and could not explain the matter
either clearly or satisfactorily. He could easily conceive
that a serious riot might arise without any fault at-
tach'ng to the conduct of the Magistrates. It might
be attributable either to error or a mistake. lie did
not know whether that was so on the present occasion,
but it had been so in firmer times. As at present
informed, he knew not wl at term to apply, but I e was dis-
posed to say it arose from timidity, and nut from any indis-
position oe the part of the Magistrates not to do their duty.
The Noble Duke had said he had found no parallel to this
outrage, even in towns which had been taken by storm,
where there had been twe houses burnt.
Lord L YN D H UR S T—Th irty.
Viscount MELBOURNE—The Noble and Learned
Lord would have an opportunity of addressing the House
presently. He should think that in a town taken by storm
rather more carnage would occur than had taken place in
Birmingham ; and the thing was sufficiently lamentable
without persons of the authority and station of the Noble
Duke indulging in violent exaggeration. • Then as
to the Magistracy--in appointing the Magistrates; every
thing had been done with the utmost fairness. The
persons appointed were persons of great respectability,
who either resided in the town or near tne town, or who
bad a fair share in the business of the town. Such had
been the composition of the magistracy, and with respect
to the other matters of complaint that some of those per-
sons had been members of the political unions, and had used
violent language—his (Lord Melbourne's) opinion on
that subject was, that it cueht not to be a disqualification
to serve as a magistrate. If the follies of nature operated as
a disqualification, and they were only to appoint those who
had acted prudently he was afraid they would be put to
very great difficulty in finding Magistrates, because
if he had to look in particular to the town of Bir-
mingham, for persons of sound discretion, for persons
who had never committed errors, who had never used
violent language, or had never written dangerous or ex-
travagant theories, he confessed he should not know where
to find them.—( Laughter.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON was rather surprised
that the Noble Lord, considering the situation he held
should only have known of the state of things in Birming-
ham by the accounts he bad seen—(Cheers)—and that he
should not know at all whether the riots were owing to
the absence of magistrates, or the absence of troops, or to
the fault of the troops standing by, or to anything
similar to that which had happened some .years ago
at Nottinghm.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
knew nothing at all about the matter.—(Loud cheers.)
That was not the way in which a country shonld be go-
verned.—(Hear, hear.) He had never known a
town so treated as Birmingham in these transac-
tions. The Noble Viscount knew little about it,
but supposed it to be Only a couple of houses burnt. Why
houses had been " gutted," and the material burnt in the
middle of the street. My Lords (said the Noble Duke
with emphasis) that is an outrage which I never knew
before committed in this country.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
And not till this had been done was there any appearance
of a proper force to preserve peace. These things have
been going on, and the Government know nothing and do
nothing.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Viscount MELBOURNE instantly rose, with every
sign of great excitement, and said, Why does the Noble
Lord say that ?—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the
Ministerial Benches.) When did these things happen?
The night before last !—( Hear, hear.) How is it possible
that the Government could have hitherto done anything in
the matter ?—<Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.)
Why does the Noble Duke say that nothing has been done ?
Why should he suppose that nothing will be done by the
Government ?—( Hear, hear, fiear.) During the time these
riots have occurred iu Birmingham every step possible has
been taken by the Government to prevent such outrage.
What is the reason that the Noble Duke imagines the Go-
vernment will neglect their duty ? My Lords, I say that the
Government have never neglected their duty--( Laughter
from the Opposition)—with regard to the preservation of
the peace—(Hear, hear,)—and the Noble Duke has no
right to assume that we shall neglect our duty in future.—
( Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON—I say, my Lords, that
these riots have prevailed for the last tea days, and no steps
have been taken to put them down effectually—to punish
the Magistrates, who have neglected their duty, or those
who have taken part in the riots, several of whom are now
in Warwick Jail.—( Hear, hear.)
Earl FITZ WILLIAM did not think the conduct of the
Noble Duke on this occasion was quite fair, in wishing to
punish the magistrates. What right had the noble duke
to assume that they had not done their duty? It was
merely an assumption which the Noble Duke made, and
he ( Earl Fitz william) and their Lordships had as much
right to assume the contrary. ( Hear, hear.) It ap-
peared to him that the Noble Dnke, in nis desire to make
charges on this occasion had lost sight of what was just to
parties. If they had been criminal, that they ought to
be punished there could be no doubt, but it savoured
somewhat of injustice towards the magistrates.oi Birming-
ham to say that it was a charge against the Government
that they had not punished the magistrates for that neglect
of duty which the Noble Duke at the present moment was
incapable of substantiating against them. But let hint
recal the recollection of the Noble Duke and the Lord
Lieutenant of Warwicksntre to the fact that this was not the
first riot which had taken place in the town of Birmingham.
which had bean attended with consequences as disastrous
as those which had now taken place, which, on compari-
son with those to which he had alluded, were not worth
mentioning.—(Hear, hear.) And let them consider under
whose auspices, and under what Government this had taken
place. Let him call the recollection of the Noble
Lord, who must be better acquainted with the history
of Warwickshire than Ihe could possibly be, that in
1789 or 1760.—(" Oh, oh," from the Tory side of the
House.) The Noble Lord did not like to have that re-
called to his recollection, when the High Ceurch mob
destroyed the houses of Dr. Priestley and those who en-
tertained opinions similar to these he held. If his Noble
Friend were to be blamed for what had now occurred,
let the same test be applicable to the Ministers of that day.
and he should like to know if the Noble Lord would try
and condemn them on the same test. All he asked was
that Noble Lords should recollect that similar eccurrences
had taken place at another time, and if any charge was
now made a similar one ought to recoil on those who wera
in authority at the time. He trusted that justice would
be done to all parties. Who had been guilty of this outrage
and if it could be proved that there had been any criminal
negligence on the part of the Magistrates, that these Ma-
gistrates had connived at the outrages of the people, had
wilfully and intentionally connived at them, then let them be
tried and punished, but not at the present moment when
nothing whatever was known of the real facts of the case.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY could not help
being struck with the degree of lightness with which the
Noble Viscount had treated this subject, and also the nature
of the answer he had given to what had been stated by the
Noble Duke. These riots had been going on in Birmingham
for days, and yet the Noble Viscount could not now tell in
what state toe town was at this moment. There was not a
Noble Lord in the House who was not equally well in-
formed upon that point with the Noble Viscount. What a
lamentable instance of ignorance did this present on the
part of Government. But after so much had been said
about Birmingham, he would ask the Noble Viscount if
he had any accounts from Newcastle and Sunderland ?
Had the Noble Viscount any information of the number
of pitmen that were now assembling in those places,
as the Chartists were doing in Birmingham'; and
were any preparatory measures being taken to pre-
vent as outbreak of such conduct as bad been
shewn at Birmingham? These things were not to be
treated in the right way, the Noble Viscount would at-
tempt to get over them. It might be very well for him
to treat his (the Noble Marquis's) statements of the atro-
cities that were perpetrated in Spain with lightness, and in
his usual good-natured way ; but he might rest assured
that such a mode of dealing with such things would not do
for the people of England.
Lord MELBOURNE did not remember ever having
treated any statement of the Noble Marquis, of the atro-
cities in Spain, or any other atrocities, with lightness. He
had certainly bad information frem the towns which the Noble
Marquis had mentioned that a great deal of alarm existed
there, and of course measures would be taken to preserve
the peace of th I towns.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE was surprisedthat the Noble
Viscount should suppose that the people of Birming-
ham, who had been all their lives used to
Lion, should all at once calm down and.o bey t.
h e
authority of the law. The manner n
trates of that town had beenappointed lc_ilactd
tafined
was not at all calculated to appease thepeople, and it wt $
his firm belief that the manner in which magistrates had
been appointed in all the towns that had received Corp°.
rationv, and the party course they had adopted, had led to
to all the disturbance that had taken place.— ( Hear. )
The Marquis of LAN SDO WNE did not rise to offer
any opinion to the House upon what had passed at Bir-
mingham, as he was confident that to form any
opinion would be
exceedingly unjust towards the
Magistrates of the
town. If any Noble Lord acting
upon V e advice of the Noble Marquis, did form an opinion
and act upon it, they would in the highest degree be
chargeable with a rash exercise of their functions. He
rose merely, wi bout entering upon the question, to state
ow improper it would be for the Government to
pronounce any opinion upon what had taken place.
The las: accounts of what passed at Birinn;bens, were
h past twelve from the Mayor of Birmingham, and at
hall-past two accounts were received from the Super.
i ttendant of Police. Both the Mayor and the Super-
i itendant of Police stated that it was impossible for them
t ) bring the whole of the facts under the considers-
tion of the Government because they were actully and